From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 08:50:06 1998
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From: Keith Nagel <knagel cnct.com>
Subject: RE: Faster than Light update
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At 11:28 PM 7/30/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Well,this is interesting because you mention "pulse" and you are 100
>percent correct about the application of that term to the above situation.
>
>Do you mean by pulse a change of ANY kind? And even though we agree on the
>above an obvious mode suggests itself.
>
>" Modulating the characteristic impedance "

Ok, lets define a few terms.

The impedance in a transmission line is simply the ratio of voltage
to current (great simplification here, but bear with me). Consequently,
it can be altered by all sorts of things, reflectors, discontinuities, etc.
Indeed, the very presence of additional wave energy can cause a change
in impedance. 

The characteristic impedance (also known as the surge impedance)
is a function of the permittivity and permeability of the material
thru which the wave is travelling. In free space this is generally
considered constant, hence the constancy of the speed of light.
Changing some thing, like the absorber in that experiment you
posted a while back, won't change that property. 

> Yes they are , Keith, and they respond to changes in the permeabilty and
>permitivity of free space, which defines it's characteristic impedance,
>right? And this change is affected by the presence or abscence of material
>objects, no? Different materials moved to new locations or out of the way
>will make different permeabilties of the "local"  space shared by each end
>of a closed system of mutual interaction.

A good example, in the electrostatic world, is the parallel plate
capacitor. Changing the distance between the plates will change
the capacity, but not the permittivity of the space between.
Changing the properties of the absorber will change the impedance
of a standing wave between, but not the characteristic impedance
of the space.

I like the direction you're going in with this, Jim. I'm curious
what you think of the above...

>
>Cuttin to the chase now ,eh?
>

Yes, I appreciate it. The signal to noise level was growing on
this thread. 

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 08:54:52 1998
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Subject: RE: FTL Communication,update etc
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On Sat, 1 Aug 1998, John Schnurer wrote:

[edited by me (Jim Ostrowski) for clarity (who said what) and , as much as
possible , brevity]


John:
> 
> > >	Man ... you got to go to the bench....
> > 


Kyle:
> > ??? I don't understand. I'm not good with figures of speech.
> > 
> 

John:
> 	I want to see stuff in front of me.... see recent vortex post on 
> cosmology...
> 	

Kyle: 
> > As for FTL signalling...I wonder how we might accompish this.
> 

John:
> 	Been done...
> 

Kyle:
>  Obviously, 
> > photonic systems (lasers,
>  radio waves)
>

John: 
> 	Radio waves work fine.... and as a more-than-C phase propagation ...
> 

Kyle:
>  don't work. But perhaps there is 
> > some way to make them travel faster?
> 

John:
> 	They don't HAVE to!  One the path is there the change in phase 
> exceeds... or can exceed C.
> 

Kyle:
>  Or perhaps figure out some novel way 
> > of decreasing the electric permitivity and magnetic permeability of the 
> > vacuum. Or the spooky scalar waves?
> 
>  The thing that gets me is this: there 
> > are leads to investigate...yet the investigation hasn't been done. I guess 
> > that's our job.
> 

John:
> 	Been done... in the texts...
> > 

Kyle:
> > Personally, I'd like an experiment I can do in my lab...not something I 
> > have to go to Arecibo observatory for and reflect radar off of other 
> > planets;)
> > 
> > Kyle R. Mcallister
> > 

John: 
> 	You can ....
> 
> 	 Get he ARRL [American Radio Realy League].. or "ham" Radio 
> Amateur's Hand book... and theer antenna handbook....
> 
> 
> 	FIND a ham operator that likes helical antennas!

ALSO John wrote:

> > 
> > 	 Jim be cool...


	Meaning :

	You, as much as any, want to see the work done close to hand, as 
opposed to a cosmologist observing 'xxx' and extrapolating a conclusion.  

	Both have merit, but for me, I want the thing on the bench... 
where I can see it!

> > 		Be on the bench....



Jim: 
> Are you saying that you want details of experimental setups that one can
> try in order to prove (or disprove) something ? 
> 

John:
	Yes... rather than cosmologically derived conclusions...

	Just how I am...

I (Jim) now respond:
 
  Well John don't tell me you weren't here  when  I  did  exactly
 that six months ago ...
 
  Remember my "Extended Capacitor" experiment ? Remember Sansbury's
 experiment which I also posted previous to that around October  of
 LAST  YEAR  (complete with gif image that Keith made out of my com
 file graphic)?  I had scope screen prints as well of  my  ext  cap
 data  showing simultaneous transmission / reception of a modulated
 carrier over a distance of 171 meters.  All this posted to  Vortex
 for anyone with an internet connection to download.
 
  BTW  when  did you ever post any of YOUR stuff or that of the HAM
 OPERATORS you mention here?
 
  While  I  was  busy  after  that  defending  my  conclusions  and
 theoretical explanation when did you chime in and support all this
 with YOUR  superluminal  signalling  experiment  descriptions  and
 resulting data?
 
 Or  are you here just to drop hints that you know all about it and
 have been there done that? If you have been there done that  where
 can  one  find the publication of your experiment(s) and resulting
 data ?
 
 Jim
 
 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 09:43:03 1998
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From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: # 4a R...E: FTL Communication
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>y
>
>On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Ross Tessien wrote:
>> The radar ranging information for Venus also indicated a v+c echo, according
>> to some researchers.  Others think the data is ok.  The problem is,
>
>
>%%%%%%   opinion %%%%
>
>	 This ain't onna bench!!!

John;

If this regards the discussion of flow of aether, 

             You Ain't Gonna Get Flow Past a Bench!

Aether flow, requires that you have a source, or a sink.  Sources are
regions of exothermy, sinks are regions of endothermy.  For sinks, the major
ones are Black holes, and those are messy to bring close to the earth near a
bench.

For sources, the amount of exothermy that we induce in chemical reactions is
so trivial that it isn't going to show anything as far as a spacetime
distortion due to aether emission.  A nuclear reactor isn't something you
can get close enough to, and an atom bomb next to the bench produces a real
mess to clean up.

The only "bench" we have that is safe to observe, is next to our sun, out in
space.  ]

Some problems are just not well suited to benches, and if you want to study
those sort of problems, then you are just going to have to go to where the
data is.  That said, researchers from SOHO, and many other craft still up
there are gathering data on our sun, right next to the surface, ie, in the
corona where we observe the nature of coronal mass ejections, and flares.  

While this isn't on your bench, it is possible to read the information they
are gathering and make your own conclusions.  They even have a lot of the
information up on the net.

So space, isn't as hard to access as you would think.  All you need to do,
is to put your computer on your bench, and hook it up to the net.  But then
you are already there, so, just change the venue of your research experiments!

Ross Tessien


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 09:54:48 1998
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From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Benches Won't WORK
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The only way you are going to get an appreciable flow of aether past a
bench, is if you set it next to the photosphere of the sun, or if you light
an A bomb next to it.  Either way, a bench isn't going to work for this sort
of learning.

John, everything is not laid out in nature for you or I to solve on a bench.
Some things you have to go to where nature is doing the action.  And if you
want to learn about aether flow, you cannot use a bench that is composed of
a vast number of aether resonances, in an ocean of aether that is moving
with the earth, another even more vast number of aether resonances.  It is
silly to think that you are going to conduct an MM experiment and have the
stuff out of which the earth is composed, blowing past the earth itself.  

That silliness only makes sense if you think of particles as one thing, and
of the aether of space as another thing.  Then you can imagine a wind
blowing past and you can seek it.  But what you are blanking on, is that
your very apparatus is composed of aether resonances, and it is subject to
any spacetime distortion being imposed by the shearing of any such flow, let
alone the fact that the flow may be no where near the amplitude you thought
it should be.

Only thinking in terms of matter being composed of particles leads to that
confusion.  Unfortunately, virtually everyone things matter is composed of
particles, and so no one questions it.  Once upon a time, everyone thought
the earth was flat, and no one questioned that either.

Today, everyone thinks there are 5 forces of nature.  Strong, weak,
electric, gravitation, cosmological (the latest to be added to the list of
what we "know").  What everyone fails to recognize is that if you replace
all of those with a single equation, that of the compressibility of aether,
and then you study particles as different geometries of soliton in that
ocean, then you can derive all of the above kinds of forces.

To do it qualitatively is easy.  To do it quantitatively will take the next
"Newton".  but the problem remains equivalent to the correction of the
Ptolemaic thinking.  The Copernican equivalent is recognizing that you must
study the motions of the aether, rather than to study the ways individual
solitons in that aether interact at different distances.  That is like
placing the sun at the center of the universe.

The second thing you have to do, is to figure out what the precise constants
of the equations are, and what the precise geometries of spacetime,
electron, nucleon, etc. are.  When you do that, you will have the equivalent
of the Newtonian derivation of F=GMm/R^2, but for aether.  And the result
will be that we no longer think in terms of different forces of nature, but
instead, those interactions will just be the ways in which different
geometries of soliton interact with spacetime and with each other, at
different separation distances.

BENCHES GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH IT, sorry.

Ross Tessien

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 10:03:45 1998
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	 <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: RE: FTL Communication,update etc
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-----Original Message-----
From:	Jim Ostrowski [SMTP:jimostr victor1.mscomm.com]
Sent:	Saturday, August 01, 1998 10:51 AM
To:	Vortex
Cc:	Kyle R. Mcallister; 'John Schnurer'
Subject:	RE: FTL Communication,update etc

>  Remember my "Extended Capacitor" experiment ? Remember Sansbury's
> experiment which I also posted previous to that around October  of
> LAST  YEAR  (complete with gif image that Keith made out of my com
> file graphic)?  I had scope screen prints as well of  my  ext  cap
> data  showing simultaneous transmission / reception of a modulated
> carrier over a distance of 171 meters.  All this posted to  Vortex
> for anyone with an internet connection to download.

Are you saying that you built a device that can transmit signals FTL? Real, 
discernable signals? If we can get some kind of an FTL transmission setup 
together, and run it in two directions, from A to B, then B to A, we can 
theoretically test Einsteinian causality. If causality is not violated, it 
is death to the idea of all equal reference frames. If causality IS 
violated...be afraid;)

Note that for a true test of causality to work, we must have true FTL 
signalling, with a message sent and recieved in time less that distance 
divided by C. Let me know more of this work.

<snip>

Guys, we need to work together on a subject of this matter. The scientific 
community is not willing to accept true superluminal signalling...we 
already saw that with Gunter Nimtz. If we all work together, perform 
experiments and whatnot, maybe the 'big name' scientists will listen.

Kyle R. Mcallister



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 10:08:25 1998
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On Sat, 1 Aug 1998, Keith Nagel wrote:

> At 11:28 PM 7/30/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >
> >Well,this is interesting because you mention "pulse" and you are 100
> >percent correct about the application of that term to the above situation.
> >
> >Do you mean by pulse a change of ANY kind?

Keith ,  would really like to see a response to this question directly OK.
It's another one of those yes/no things that people just HATE to give one
of the two available answers but this is important to my argument.

 And even though we agree on the
> >above an obvious mode suggests itself.
> >
> >" Modulating the characteristic impedance "
> 
> Ok, lets define a few terms.
> 
> The impedance in a transmission line is simply the ratio of voltage
> to current (great simplification here, but bear with me). Consequently,
> it can be altered by all sorts of things, reflectors, discontinuities, etc.
> Indeed, the very presence of additional wave energy can cause a change
> in impedance. 
> 
> The characteristic impedance (also known as the surge impedance)
> is a function of the permittivity and permeability of the material
> thru which the wave is travelling. In free space this is generally
> considered constant, hence the constancy of the speed of light.
> Changing some thing, like the absorber in that experiment you
> posted a while back, won't change that property. 

Well, I think this assertion is debatable due to the result claimed in
Sansbury's experiment, which is what I think you are referrring to ,
right?

> 
> > Yes they are , Keith, and they respond to changes in the permeabilty and
> >permitivity of free space, which defines it's characteristic impedance,
> >right? And this change is affected by the presence or abscence of material
> >objects, no? Different materials moved to new locations or out of the way
> >will make different permeabilties of the "local"  space shared by each end
> >of a closed system of mutual interaction.
> 
> A good example, in the electrostatic world, is the parallel plate
> capacitor. Changing the distance between the plates will change
> the capacity, but not the permittivity of the space between.

The dielectric constant in the above example, presumed to be that of AIR ,
I guess, remains the same, so YES I agree with the above. 

What I suggested though was changing the permitivity of the medium in some
way which would alter the speed of EM propagation within that medium. If
you alter the speed of propagation within a medium shared by both ends of
a mutual interaction , well then voila(!) , huh? 

This is why it's important that we get down with DEFINING a signal , for
once and for all, IMHO. 


> Changing the properties of the absorber will change the impedance
> of a standing wave between, but not the characteristic impedance
> of the space.

The example you just gave though does not change the characteristic
impedance of the signal conducting medium which IS the capacitor itself,
NOT what you would define as a transmission line in the ordinary sense of
that term, I think...

> 
> I like the direction you're going in with this, Jim. I'm curious
> what you think of the above...
> 

I think the above.

> >
> >Cuttin to the chase now ,eh?
> >
> 
> Yes, I appreciate it. The signal to noise level was growing on
> this thread. 
> 

No kidding.

Jim


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 10:13:38 1998
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From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Faster than Light update
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>We can already do induced nuclear fission ;). 

Not really, and not the kind I am talking about.  What we can do is to allow
neutrons to accumulate in a region, and then the absorption of a neutron
leads to fast fission reactions.  This is a change in the nucleus prior to
inducing the fission reaction.

I am saying, "induced" fission reactions.  In other words, doing something
to the nuclei so that they spontaneously fission, without requiring neutrons
or gammas or any other incident particles to split the thing.  This way, you
can take a radioactive element and force it to fission when you want it to,
rather than wait for QM to do it's uncertainty thing.  Better still, I hope
to force nuclei that are already stable, to fission.  Again, no neutrons
need apply.

I can't go further into this for now.  But you see, I am not talking about
anything we can already do.  I am talking about things that the theory I
have put together say are possible.

Later, Ross Tessien


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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
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Subject: Bench ...RE: FTL Communication,update etc
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	 Dear Folks,


	 Some of you may or may not know I have been going through some 
hard time.   

	This is of course no excuse for not contributing.


	 I have many other failings...  and some of these include


	a] everyone knows what I have read or seen repeated many times 
in literature...  popular and peer reviewed ...
	 b] I like to see the 'stuff work on the bench' ...."hardball 
nuts and bolts, belt and suspenders"  engineering...

	Some comments:


On Sat, 1 Aug 1998, Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> 
> On Sat, 1 Aug 1998, John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> [edited by me (Jim Ostrowski) for clarity (who said what) and , as much as
> possible , brevity]
> 
> Kyle: 
> > > As for FTL signalling...I wonder how we might accompish this.

	A)

	It is a reasonably simple endeavor to set up a circularly 
polarized helical antenna with a PHASE propagation rate of greater than C

	B)  Once the signal, say for discussion in the 100 to 900 m cps 
range, is, in CW mode, going from transmit to recieve antenna, say 1,000 
yards apart ...

	C)  THEN:  One may introduce minor phase change, say.... 
modulation of 20 degrees and 40 degrees....

	D)  The TIME it takes to detect the send phase...can be 

		i] greater than, equal to or less than "C"

	E)  This propagation rate, for helical antennas, is governed by the 
physical dimension, pitch or winding and so on... of the antenna 

	F)  All of this is in the general literature and we will, at risk, 
presume the antennas are properly terminated, ..the drive is nominal and 
so on... at least as per a good ham radio operator would do.


> > 
> 
> John:
> > 	Been done...

> Kyle:
> >  Obviously, 
> > > photonic systems (lasers,
> >  radio waves)
> >
> 
> John: 
> > 	Radio waves work fine.... and as a more-than-C phase propagation ...
> > 
> 
> Kyle:
> >  don't work. But perhaps there is 
> > > some way to make them travel faster?
> > 
> 
> John:
> > 	They don't HAVE to!  One the path is there the change in phase 
> > exceeds... or can exceed C.
> > 
> 
> Kyle:
> >  Or perhaps figure out some novel way 
> > > of decreasing the electric permitivity and magnetic permeability of the 
> > > vacuum. Or the spooky scalar waves?
> > 
> >  The thing that gets me is this: there 
> > > are leads to investigate...yet the investigation hasn't been done. I guess 
> > > that's our job.
> > 
> 
> John:
> > 	Been done... in the texts...
> > > 
> 
> Kyle:
> > > Personally, I'd like an experiment I can do in my lab...not something I 
> > > have to go to Arecibo observatory for and reflect radar off of other 
> > > planets;)
> > > 
> > > Kyle R. Mcallister
> > > 
> 
> John: 
> > 	You can ....
> > 
> > 	 Get he ARRL [American Radio Realy League].. or "ham" Radio 
> > Amateur's Hand book... and theer antenna handbook....
> > 
> > 
> > 	FIND a ham operator that likes helical antennas!
> 
> ALSO John wrote:
> 
> > > 
> > > 	 Jim be cool...
> 
> 
> 	Meaning :
> 
> 	You, as much as any, want to see the work done close to hand, as 
> opposed to a cosmologist observing 'xxx' and extrapolating a conclusion.  
> 
> 	Both have merit, but for me, I want the thing on the bench... 
> where I can see it!
> 
> > > 		Be on the bench....
> 
> 
> 
> Jim: 
> > Are you saying that you want details of experimental setups that one can
> > try in order to prove (or disprove) something ? 
> > 
> 
> John:
> 	Yes... rather than cosmologically derived conclusions...
> 
> 	Just how I am...
> 
> I (Jim) now respond:
>  
>   Well John don't tell me you weren't here  when  I  did  exactly
>  that six months ago ...
>  
>   Remember my "Extended Capacitor" experiment ? Remember Sansbury's
>  experiment which I also posted previous to that around October  of
>  LAST  YEAR  (complete with gif image that Keith made out of my com
>  file graphic)?  I had scope screen prints as well of  my  ext  cap
>  data  showing simultaneous transmission / reception of a modulated
>  carrier over a distance of 171 meters.  All this posted to  Vortex
>  for anyone with an internet connection to download.
>  
>   BTW  when  did you ever post any of YOUR stuff or that of the HAM
>  OPERATORS you mention here?


	DEAR JIM:


	 Yes I had and have posted some, some on line, some off line ... 
and just sort of thought everyone had already read the classic antenna texts


	 My apologies...

>  
>   While  I  was  busy  after  that  defending  my  conclusions  and
>  theoretical explanation when did you chime in and support all this
>  with YOUR  superluminal  signalling  experiment  descriptions  and
>  resulting data?
>  

	Again a fault of mine....  I am poor at math... not in love, per 
se, with theory ... and like to see bench stuff.

	


>  Or  are you here just to drop hints that you know all about it and
>  have been there done that?

	I have only done simple experiments and the main work is 
published in books from ~ CA 1930 to ~ 1970




 If you have been there done that  where
>  can  one  find the publication of your experiment(s) and resulting
>  data ?
>  
>  Jim
>  
>  
> 

	Best regards,

				John


> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 10:51:48 1998
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From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: FTL Communication,update etc
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On Sat, 1 Aug 1998, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

> 
> Are you saying that you built a device that can transmit signals FTL?

I built a device which outputted signals to a digital oscilloscope that
would give the impression at least that the waveforms at one end arrived
simultaneous to their transmission from the other end , through what I
called an "ectended capacitor" stretched out in a loop as indicated 171
meters. Since it was a loop however this experiment was criticized as
being inconclusive, which perhaps it was.

 But it's not my job to try and PROVE anything to anyone here on Vortex or
elswhere.


 Real, 
> discernable signals?

Define "signal" .

 If we can get some kind of an FTL transmission setup 
> together, and run it in two directions, from A to B, then B to A, we can 
> theoretically test Einsteinian causality. If causality is not violated, it 
> is death to the idea of all equal reference frames. If causality IS 
> violated...be afraid;)

Did you catch my post # 1 under the header FTL update (Start of thread).
Causality ,means which came first , chicken or egg ...meaningless concept
in the communication method I suggested (mutual interaction).


> 
> Note that for a true test of causality to work, we must have true FTL 
> signalling, with a message sent and recieved in time less that distance 
> divided by C. Let me know more of this work.

That's what I am doing now, Kyle. but in order for people to understand it
they need to understand the underlying theory, and I doubt if anyone here
does with the exception of Keith maybe.

> 
> <snip>
> 
> Guys, we need to work together on a subject of this matter. The scientific 
> community is not willing to accept true superluminal signalling...we 
> already saw that with Gunter Nimtz. If we all work together, perform 
> experiments and whatnot, maybe the 'big name' scientists will listen.
> 

They are listening ,Kyle. I'm getting some feedback. be patient and I will
explain all in time.

Jim

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 13:33:19 1998
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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All,
  Here are the results of 8 runs of a glow discharge in H2 without K in a
1/4 inch ID quartz tube, electrode gap 1/2 inch. 

  For these eight runs the temperature was allowed to stabilize for 30 
minutes after each change of fill pressure. No other parameters were
adjusted. 

Ledgend:

Fp---H2 fill pressure Inches Hg  +/- .25 in Hg
Tc---Degrees C  +/- .1 C
Tv---Tube voltage  +/- 10 vdc
Ta---Tube current amperes  +/- .01 amperes
Tw---Tube watts (Tv x Ta)
Cw---Tc / Tw

==========================
(1)
Fp---12.0
Tc---664.8
Tv---1380
Ta---.03824
Tw---52.7712
Cw---12.59778
=============================
(2)
Fp---8.0
Tc---626.5
Tv---1200
Ta---.03984
Tw---47.808
Cw---13.104501
==============================
(3)
Fp---6.5
Tc---586.5
Tv---1050
Ta---.03928
Tw---41.244
Cw---14.22025
==============================
(4)
Fp---6.0
Tc---547.7
Tv---950
Ta---.03704
Tw---35.188
Cw---15.56497
===============================
(5)
Fp---5.0
Tc---549.5
Tv---900
Ta---.04104
Tw---36.936
Cw---14.877084
================================
(6)
Fp---4.0
Tc---564.5
Tv---870
Ta---.04896
Tw---42.5952
Cw---13.252666
================================
(7)
Fp---3.0
Tc---478.3
Tv---850
Ta---.03808
Tw---32.368
Cw---14.77694
=================================
(8)
Fp---2.0
Tc---470.1
Tv---800
Ta---.04304
Tw---34.432
Cw---13.652997
====================================

Regards
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas Nevada

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 15:58:30 1998
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On Sat, 1 Aug 1998, John Schnurer wrote:

> 
> 
> 	 Dear Folks,
> 
> 
> 	 Some of you may or may not know I have been going through some 
> hard time.   

I sorta gathered that, yes. Wanna talk about it?

  [snip]

> My apologies

You're Forgiven. for your penance you can monitor the discussion between 
Keith and me and if you have anything pertinent to say , feel free to jump
in! :^)

Jim


 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 16:36:25 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From:	John Schnurer [SMTP:herman antioch-college.edu]
Sent:	Saturday, August 01, 1998 12:59 AM
To:	Kyle R. Mcallister
Cc:	'John Schnurer'
Subject:	RE: FTL Communication

>> Yes, but can such a system be used to transmit a message from point A to 
>> point B in a time less than D/C? In other words, can this transmit a
>> message to a star 5 light years away in less than five years? That's 
what
>> would be really neat.
>> Or if continuous beam can be sent in 5 years to the destination, and
>> messages be sent along this beam FTL...
>>
>	You got it.... once the beam is from here to there the PHASE
>change can easily exceed C... and this has not only  been DONE... it is
>in tables of antenna design!

I looked up phase velocity signalling in Nick Herbert's book 
"Faster-than-light: superluminal loopholes in physics". According to 
Herbert, phase waves can't be used to send signals FTL. The setup described 
in the book is like this:

1. I decide to send a continuous radio beam to my friend Timothy. He lets 
me know that he has the beam at his reciever.
2. I try to modulate the phase waves to send a message FTL to Timothy, but 
since the phase waves are infinite and monotonous, no message can be 
attached to the beam and sent FTL.

According to the book, only the group velocity can be used to transmit a 
message, and this travels at or below C.

Is this right, or am I wrong?

Kyle R. Mcallister


> >	You can ....
> >
> >	 Get he ARRL [American Radio Realy League].. or "ham" Radio
> >Amateur's Hand book... and theer antenna handbook....
> >
> >
> >	FIND a ham operator that likes helical antennas!
>
> I'll look for this, and the ham operator. There is one nearby, but I 
don't
> know if he's worked with helical antenna's or not.
>
> Kyle R. Mcallister
>
>
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 18:17:42 1998
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Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 21:11:26 -0700
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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If we presume that all the energy there is existed at the beginning of
the universe, then wouldn't that energy be represented by sum of all the
matter of the universe and the ZPE which permeates space?

If the ZPE is the force responsible for gravity could it not also be the
energy which causes the expansion of the universe with matter shadowing
that force?

And if we knew the present size of the universe and the amount of
matter, based on these presumptions, could we not know the ultimate size
of the universe?

And if ZPE is the source of gravity, would not the gravitational
constant
decrease with the increasing size of the universe and the decreasing
"density" of the ZPE in space?

And would not the ZPE determine the permittivity and permeability of
space and subsequently the speed of light?

And would not the speed of light decrease as the universe expands?

Or are three Newcastle Brown Ales the limit to rational thought?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 19:16:45 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Faster than Light update
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 02:12:50 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Sat, 1 Aug 1998 10:02:45 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
>
>
>>We can already do induced nuclear fission ;). 
>
>Not really, and not the kind I am talking about.  What we can do is to allow
[snip]
>I can't go further into this for now.  But you see, I am not talking about
>anything we can already do.  I am talking about things that the theory I
>have put together say are possible.
[snip]
I already knew what you meant, that's why I put the ;) at the end.
However from the point of view of the rest of humanity it may not seem
all that important. All they look at is end results. 
And the fact of the matter is that we can already induce fission and
produce energy as a consequence. They could give a *&$%# whether it's
pretty or not.
The main problem with the current method is the production of
radioactive species as a consequence.
IOW if you can't come up with a process that avoids the chief problem
with the current process, then most people will say "what's the
point?".
You and I realise that it would be a major breakthrough from a
scientific point of view, and lead eventually to new industries etc.
but from the point of view of the public, you need to show a clear and
obvious advantage over current methods, if you want to make any sort
of impression at all.
And of course clean fission would be far more valuable than the
current variety.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 19:19:26 1998
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Subject: Re: # 4a R...E: FTL Communication
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On Sat, 1 Aug 1998, Ross Tessien wrote:
-snip-
data is.  That said, researchers from SOHO, and many other craft still up
there are gathering data on our sun, right next to the surface, ie, in the
corona where we observe the nature of coronal mass ejections, and flares.  
-------------------
Hi Ross, 
  I was just reading a while back that they just relocated SOHO and were
attempting to re-signal it into commandable craft.
  Has it replied?  is it still in working order?

anyone?
-=se=-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 19:43:48 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Bench ...RE: FTL Communication,update etc
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 02:34:57 GMT
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On Sat, 1 Aug 1998 13:02:04 -0400 (EDT), John Schnurer wrote:
[snip]
>	It is a reasonably simple endeavor to set up a circularly 
>polarized helical antenna with a PHASE propagation rate of greater than C
>
>	B)  Once the signal, say for discussion in the 100 to 900 m cps 
>range, is, in CW mode, going from transmit to recieve antenna, say 1,000 
>yards apart ...
>
>	C)  THEN:  One may introduce minor phase change, say.... 
>modulation of 20 degrees and 40 degrees....
>
>	D)  The TIME it takes to detect the send phase...can be 
>
>		i] greater than, equal to or less than "C"
>
>	E)  This propagation rate, for helical antennas, is governed by the 
>physical dimension, pitch or winding and so on... of the antenna 
>
>	F)  All of this is in the general literature and we will, at risk, 
>presume the antennas are properly terminated, ..the drive is nominal and 
>so on... at least as per a good ham radio operator would do.
[snip]
Would you happen to know if this sort of thing has been done with
antennae on vehicles on the moon or in orbit, such that an FTL
response was produced?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 20:09:14 1998
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On Sat, 1 Aug 1998, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

> Subject:	RE: FTL Communication
> 
> >> Yes, but can such a system be used to transmit a message from point A to 
> >> point B in a time less than D/C? In other words, can this transmit a
> >> message to a star 5 light years away in less than five years? That's 
> what
> >> would be really neat.
> >> Or if continuous beam can be sent in 5 years to the destination, and
> >> messages be sent along this beam FTL...
> >>
> >	You got it.... once the beam is from here to there the PHASE
> >change can easily exceed C... and this has not only  been DONE... it is
> >in tables of antenna design!
q> 
> I looked up phase velocity signalling in Nick Herbert's book 
> "Faster-than-light: superluminal loopholes in physics". According to 
> Herbert, phase waves can't be used to send signals FTL. The setup described 
> in the book is like this:
> 
> 1. I decide to send a continuous radio beam to my friend Timothy. He lets 
> me know that he has the beam at his reciever.

> 2. I try to modulate the phase waves to send a message FTL to Timothy, but 
> since the phase waves are infinite and monotonous, no message can be 
> attached to the beam and sent FTL.

Could you explain what Herbert meant by modulating the "phase waves"? 
What ARE phase waves BTW?

> 
> According to the book, only the group velocity can be used to transmit a 
> message, and this travels at or below C.
> 
> Is this right, or am I wrong?

If we look at this statement in the strictly grammatical sense it seems to
say that faster than light signalling is impossible . So let's all
forget about this and go home , right?

The truth is , though I think here again we are looking at a cause-effect
picture of EM propagation , which you will continually run up against
in literature such as commentary on Einstien's relativity. 

Reasoning this way is flawed however and leads to ridiculous paradoxes and
strange science fiction scenarios. 

How can one causal event make two different things happen at two differnt
times, and still be the same causal event for both effects?

For example if you send a beam of light through a prism the blue light
will get thru the prism first due to the lower index of refraction for
that wavelength . If then the red beam strikes a light activated toggle
switch on the other side of the prism AFTER the blue light has struck it
the switch will first be toggled one way (say "on") and then the other
("off"). So with this experiment you have the cause event ( the switching
on of the light pulse by moving the "chopper" ,below ) leading to two
different and opposite effects ,one later than the other .


                            blue mirror                 
                                   _    _____o vcc
                         prism    / \  |
[ light source  ]---[]-------/_|<     >0 
                  chopper         \ /  |____/\/\/\/\_____gnd     
                                   -
                            red  mirror  

did the movement of the chopper close the switch or open it?

JO


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 20:39:03 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Entropy?
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 03:30:19 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:51:01 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
[snip]
>Correct, you can do work with high grade energy, and wind up with radio
>waves.  But you cannot build a **real** device, and avoid producing any
>heat.  And if you did build an ideal device that converted 100 percent of
>the energy into radio waves, then in principle you could convert 100 percent
>of that energy back into gammas or some higher form of energy.  But, to do
>so, you would not have been able to extrect any work if you did, or, upon
>converting the energy back into high grade gammas you would have to put the
>same work back in.  

Laws of thermo are based on observation of heat based systems. I
advocate getting out of a heat based system, and you say it can't be
done because the laws of thermo forbid it.

>
>Anyway, there is no known device that could accomplish your goal, so until

This is a practical matter. And in fact not quite true.
Suppose the heat  sink of a power generator were surrounded by solar
cells that are sensitive to infrared radiation. Wouldn't those cells
then produce some electrical energy from the heat radiated away by the
heat sink?

>their is, the idea "entropy", continues to be a useful one.  And, as I can
>understand that what is going on is to derive energy from the emission of
>aether (from high aether density regions such as particles to low density
>regions such as "empty space"), entropy simply becomes a study of the
>evaporation of aether in the universe.

Perhaps more accurately a study of the reversibility of evaporation of
aether. When left to itself, it tends to diffuse, becoming more
difficult to collect. It is this diffusion & difficulty that we
associate with entropy. That doesn't however necessarily mean that we
can't do it at all, if "heroic measures" are employed. Consider your
own assertion that all potential energy represents the storing (or
compression) of aether (at least I think you've said that before).
It should be possible to compress almost as much as was decompressed.
[snip]
>You are increasing the entropy when you radiate away the energy.  ie, you

So don't radiate it any further than your receiver antenna.

>could tap into the heat energy of the moon, build a super conductor device
>to perform such and such a motion, drive a generator and have power.  But,
>you are driving heat energy that is high quality at 80K and dumping into a
>sink of low quality at 2.7K from which you can't get it back because you
>don't have a colder sink, unless you expend work to cool something down
>below the CBR.

Precisely. But that is exactly what rectification does. It turns AC at
X Hz into DC. And DC can be considered to be 0 Hz. The energy of 0 Hz
photon is 0. The associated temperature is 0/k = 0.
IOW rectification provides a sink at absolute zero. The conversion
efficiency is (Thigh-Tlow)/Thigh = (Thigh-0)/Thigh = 1.
(In a perfect device).

>
>However because the radiated energy
>>is in the form of microwaves, almost all of it can be recaptured and
>>reused. 
>
>No.  You don't capture "almost all of it".  Your antenna will only capture
>some of it, and the rest goes on to become part of the cbr in a few billion
>years as it scatters off of matter in the interstellar medium.

I wonder just how much could in fact be captured, if we really tried?

>
>
[snip]
>What makes you think radio waves are easy to capture and derive the energy
>from them?  

The fact that solar power satellites that beam their energy back to
earth in the form of microwaves, have been given serious
consideration.

>Don't you notice that you can drive all over the place and pick
>up the same signal from a radio station?  The radio signal energy spreads
>out all over the place.  

Yes, that's we the radio stations are called "broad"-casters.
broad = wide , cast = throw.

>To capture most of it you would have to build an
>antenna that completely surrounds the radio emission, 

Bingo!

>and then you would get
>into wierd stuff since electricity would have to move through the thickness
>of your metal sphere.

?

>
>
>>PS Don't worry Ross, your discourse was not wasted on me, but I want
>>to see where this leads before "surrendering".
>
>
>If you find energy coming out of something that is more than is being put
>in, all it means is that energy is going into the system from somewhere you
>don't recognize as a source of energy, period.  

I'm not really talking about more coming out than went in. I'm talking
about reusing the kinetic energy that we currently throw away.
We also store some potential energy in some processes. This is
obviously not going to be available for immediate reuse, but would be
after later conversion to kinetic energy.
Perhaps what I am really talking about is a zero entropy civilisation,
which just shuffles around the distribution of potential energy,
without ever actually gaining or losing any.
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 21:10:00 1998
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From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Faster than Light update
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>On Sat, 1 Aug 1998 10:02:45 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
>>

>The main problem with the current method is the production of
>radioactive species as a consequence.
>IOW if you can't come up with a process that avoids the chief problem
>with the current process, then most people will say "what's the
>point?".
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

The point is, the process I am talking about will not produce radioactive
products.  Think of the nucleus like an almond tree, and then you go in and
shake it.  The least well confined components of the nucleus are going to be
rattled off first, and typically those are He4 nuclei, ergo charged, short
decay translation through the material.

And, proof is that these reactions are already taking place in cf
experiments we have been discussing for years on this group.  The only thing
that has been missing is a reason to believe that what people think is going
on, really is going on.  The theories I am writing up in the book, provide
the understanding, and the reactor will provide the proof.  And yes, there
will be no radioactive nuclei, if the ideas are correct.  Time will tell,
hopefully not too much of it. 

Ross Tessien



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 21:11:17 1998
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From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: # 4a R...E: FTL Communication
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>On Sat, 1 Aug 1998, Ross Tessien wrote:
>-snip-
>data is.  That said, researchers from SOHO, and many other craft still up
>there are gathering data on our sun, right next to the surface, ie, in the
>corona where we observe the nature of coronal mass ejections, and flares.  
>-------------------
>Hi Ross, 
>  I was just reading a while back that they just relocated SOHO and were
>attempting to re-signal it into commandable craft.
>  Has it replied?  is it still in working order?

The condition of SOHO remains unknown.  The craft has been located in pretty
much the same location it had been in, so it didn't blow up or fire rockets
and go spewing off into the wild black beyond.  

It is slowly rotating, and the orientation of the solar panels has them
pointing away from the sun for the most part due to the axis of the
rotation.  But, as we move around the sun, the axis remains fixed and so
little by little, the panels are getting more light on them each day.  A
while back, one or a couple of other satelites were lost in a similar
manner, and they managed to recover them.  So they are hoping that in about
two months, the panels will be getting enough light to charge the batteries
back up again so that they may be able to regain communications.

The problems are still many, though, and the scientists are planning out a
bunch of contingencies in the event that control is regained.  The first is
that when it went out of contact, it was in some wierd configurations, so I
don't have a clue as to what will happen now from a re-boot crash condition,
and neither do they.

There may well be some of the experiments that pointed at the sun in the
process, the batteries are probably frozen, etc etc.  So they need to thaw
out the batteries, regain control, and then find out how many of the
experiments can still function.  They would then resume obtaining data with
what ever instruments were still in working order, and shut down the rest of
them.

Technically, the project was a two year one, so it isn't like it didn't make
it's goals, but it was still running great and had plenty of fuel to make it
through the solar maximum, if I recall that correctly.

So, keep your fingers crossed that in a month or two they regain control,
and can get the thing booted back up again.

Ross Tessien



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 21:18:26 1998
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Subject: Re: The Force
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Terry:

>If we presume [...]

>If the ZPE is [...]

>And if we knew [...]

>And if ZPE [...]

>And would not the ZPE [...]

>And would not the speed of light [...]

>Or are three Newcastle Brown Ales the limit to rational thought?

>Inquiring minds want to know.

>Terry

As an incredible babe formerly engaged to a Mr. Tinsley once told me: "Stay
out of the deep end, Rick."

Damnfine advice.   ;)

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI





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-----Original Message-----
From:	Jim Ostrowski [SMTP:jimostr victor1.mscomm.com]
Sent:	Saturday, August 01, 1998 10:05 PM
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	RE: FTL Communication



>Could you explain what Herbert meant by modulating the "phase waves"?

Encoding them with a decipherable message.

>What ARE phase waves BTW?

Think of an inchworm...the speed at which the inchworm moves is related to 
the front velocity of a radio wave. The hump that moves along the 
inchworm's back can move faster than the speed of the inchworm itself. That 
is phase velocity (and the humps are phase waves). The crests of the radio 
wave are the phase waves, and can move FTL.

>>
>> According to the book, only the group velocity can be used to transmit a 
>> message, and this travels at or below C.
>>
>> Is this right, or am I wrong?

>If we look at this statement in the strictly grammatical sense it seems to
>say that faster than light signalling is impossible . So let's all
>forget about this and go home , right?

Why forget about it when it has not been fully researched? Physics is not 
yet known well. (contrary to the beliefs of many)

>The truth is , though I think here again we are looking at a cause-effect
>picture of EM propagation , which you will continually run up against
>in literature such as commentary on Einstien's relativity.

Effect can't precede cause. Even for FTL effects. Think of it: its totally 
ridiculous. Lets say that I build a superluminal transmitter that will obey 
special relativity, in other words, it will violate causality. I get ready 
to send a message, and the message arrives at the reciever. Before I even 
sent it, since it travels backward in time. Now what if I decide not to 
send the message after I recieve it? I have a message recorded in my 
reciever that was never sent. It came from nowhere, nowhen. That is one 
hell of an irresolvable paradox. To quote the famous Daffy Duck: "What a 
foul predicament!"

>Reasoning this way is flawed however and leads to ridiculous paradoxes and
>strange science fiction scenarios.

Exactly. That's why I think there is evidence for an absolute 
Lorentz-Poincare type preferred reference frame. If you have that, you can 
prevent causality violations for FTL travel/communication/whatever.

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 21:37:50 1998
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>On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:51:01 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:


>Laws of thermo are based on observation of heat based systems. I
>advocate getting out of a heat based system, and you say it can't be
>done because the laws of thermo forbid it.

OK, think carefully.  What is heat?  What is energy?  What is mass?  What is
spacetime?

You don't have any working idea of what those ideas really mean except to
say that they relate to one another like this or that.  I can give you
concrete physical answers for those.

Mass, is a measure of an amont of medium we can call aether.  The universe
is an ocean of it, and not a bunch of empty space.

Spacetime, is a structure of wave energy in that ocean.  It has an
organized, quadrature, standing wave topology.  It is nothing more or less
complex than a structure of acoustic standing waves permeating the "quantum
vacuum", to which solitonic waveforms can couple, ie, particles.

Energy is, aether in motion.

Heat is, the ability of some aether to set some other aether into a
different kind of motion.  ie, if you think in terms of air, then you can
have pressure, or you can have kinetic, motions.  So when you boil it down,
"heat", is a measure of the amount of aether that is available to be shot
out and to thus accelerate some other region of aether.  Hot things, have
more aether in them than cold things of the same material.  Nuclei with a
large AMU value per nucleon have a large amount of aether in them, and so
that aether can be emitted if you change the nuclear structure, and the
resulting nuclei will become accelerated due to the emission, and ergo, will
be heated.

Energy, is a property of aether in motion, or aether at high pressure and
able to set something in motion.  This is a lot like, heat.  



>>
>>Anyway, there is no known device that could accomplish your goal, so until
>
>This is a practical matter. And in fact not quite true.
>Suppose the heat  sink of a power generator were surrounded by solar
>cells that are sensitive to infrared radiation. Wouldn't those cells
>then produce some electrical energy from the heat radiated away by the
>heat sink?

The point is, you have heat flowing through the system, from higher
temperature to lower temperature.  And thus, the overall entropy of the
system is going to increase.  You can't get away from it.

A simple way of thinking about it is, "All processes are aether emissive".
IOW, no matter what you do, you are going to have depleted the amount of
aether confined in the matter you began with by the time your cycle is
completed.  The reason this is so, is because the universe is expanding, and
so the pressure of the aether out in deep space is lower than it is in your
device.  There is a continuous flow of aether out of stars, out of warm
planets, out of all working machinery.  The emission of aether accelerates
the component atoms, and drives whatever device you have built.  But in the
end, the reason it works is because your devices are driving the expansion
of the universe via aether emission.

Today, we call this driving thrust the "cosmological constant" thrust, and
it is believd to come from "empty space".  But this is only because we don't
yet understand that aether has sources, and that what we think of as
particles making up our devices, are in reality, solitonic waveforms like
standing waves, in, and of, aether in the ocean we call a universe.  when we
realize that, then it will be clear why the universe is so nearly flat
cosmologically, and yet it is still open.

>

>Perhaps more accurately a study of the reversibility of evaporation of
>aether. When left to itself, it tends to diffuse, becoming more
>difficult to collect. It is this diffusion & difficulty that we
>associate with entropy. 

Correct, now you are getting it.  It is the difficulty of getting aether
confined into a smaller region of the universe because the pressure of the
universe is lower way out there than it is over here near bodies.  "ergo",
gravitational lensing really is just due to a density gradient in a medium,
like  a crystal ball.

That doesn't however necessarily mean that we
>can't do it at all, if "heroic measures" are employed. 

Sure.  The universe does it already.  We call them black holes.  but after
the aether flows in, it will flow out again if given a chance.  See the
million light year long jets caused by breaches to the aether flowing into
the black hole and condensing into a core inside of the event horizon, ie,
there is no singularity inside!  instead, there is a core of aether at
radical pressures greater than E111 eV/m^3

Consider your
>own assertion that all potential energy represents the storing (or
>compression) of aether (at least I think you've said that before).
>It should be possible to compress almost as much as was decompressed.
>[snip]
>>You are increasing the entropy when you radiate away the energy.  ie, you
>
>So don't radiate it any further than your receiver antenna.

Your receiver antenna is only going to catch a small percentage of what you
radiate out.  That is the problem.  You can't catch all you emit, so you
lose some of the aether you had before you began.


>Precisely. But that is exactly what rectification does. It turns AC at
>X Hz into DC. And DC can be considered to be 0 Hz. The energy of 0 Hz
>photon is 0. The associated temperature is 0/k = 0.
>IOW rectification provides a sink at absolute zero. The conversion
>efficiency is (Thigh-Tlow)/Thigh = (Thigh-0)/Thigh = 1.
>(In a perfect device).

Every time you change energy from one form to another, you are going to lose
some of the energy you had to begin with.  When you do that, your cycle
loses some of the potential for doing work that it had before you began.
Nothing you are going to come up with is going to get around that problem.
And the reason is, "Energy" isn't some intangeable concept.  Rather, it is
the ability of a material medium to cause other parts of the same material
medium to do work.  Ergo, aether acting on aether.

There is no free lunch.

Why waste time worrying about this part.  why not just get to work figuring
out how to tap into the energy that is there to tap into?

>
>>
>>However because the radiated energy
>>>is in the form of microwaves, almost all of it can be recaptured and
>>>reused. 
>>
>>No.  You don't capture "almost all of it".  Your antenna will only capture
>>some of it, and the rest goes on to become part of the cbr in a few billion
>>years as it scatters off of matter in the interstellar medium.
>
>I wonder just how much could in fact be captured, if we really tried?

We do it all the time.  It is a tiny fraction of the amount that was emitted
in most cases.  What can be done, is to put up two antennas in different
regions so that you have a potential difference, and then tap into the
energy from the difference between the two antennas.  I think Tesla did this
one.  But again, you arent getting the energy for free.  You are just
tapping into some energy that is there and being driven by the sun and the
solar wind which ionizes our ionosphere.


>>What makes you think radio waves are easy to capture and derive the energy
>>from them?  
>
>The fact that solar power satellites that beam their energy back to
>earth in the form of microwaves, have been given serious
>consideration.

But this is not even remotely in violation of entropy.  The energy began as
high quality high temp energy at the sun's surface (or in the core), and it
has been degrading toward the CBR ever since.


>I'm not really talking about more coming out than went in. 

Then you ARE talking about entropy increasing.

I'm talking
>about reusing the kinetic energy that we currently throw away.

The problem is an economic one.  You are trying to save the crumbs, by
building a billion dollar crumb catcher.  The problem is, it costs less
money and time and effort, to just let that low grade energy go, and to take
along a little extra power instead.  There is a point of economic break
even, and there is also a point of technological break even.  The first cuts
in before the second, normally.  And the second point is where you can't buy
bearings with lower friction, or antennas with a greater capture ratio, etc.
There is a limit to how much energy you can reclaim, period.  And before you
reach that limit your budget director is going to smack you really hard on
the head.

   
Ross Tessien

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 21:41:11 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Electron Capture
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 04:27:26 GMT
Organization: Improving
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I have a few questions about electron capture.

1) Is a gamma ray always emitted during electron capture, or only a
percentage of the time?

2) If the latter, then what does the distribution look like?

3) What is usually the distribution of energy between the neutrino and
the gamma ray?

I have down loaded megs of data from the net in an attempt to answer
these seemingly simple questions, but with no result.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  1 22:37:13 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: CF elements
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 05:34:42 GMT
Organization: Improving
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Take a look at this graph:

http://www.cea.com/cai/augtheo/aesrsf3k.gif

and compare the peaks to the elements commonly involved in CF
experiments.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FTL Communication
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 07:04:00 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Sat, 1 Aug 1998 23:24:49 -0500, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
[snip]
>hell of an irresolvable paradox. To quote the famous Daffy Duck: "What a 
>foul predicament!"
[snip]
Shouldn't that be ..."fowl predicament"? ;)
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 02:20:15 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Electron Capture
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At 04:27 AM 8/2/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>1) Is a gamma ray always emitted during electron capture, or only a
>percentage of the time?

EC doesn't have to result in gamma emission at all...I think.

EC creates a new element with the same A but 1 less Z.  For example, Fe-55
becomes Mn-55 upon EC.  The new atom has a K-shell vacancy (the electron
that was captured) and it behaves just like it had been excited by ordinary
means.  A pecentage of the time, given by the fluorescent yield, K x-rays
are emitted.  The rest of the time, Auger electrons are emitted.

The EC event can leave the daughter nucleus in an excited state.  This does
not occur in Fe-55 but it does occur in Cd-109.  Cd-109 decays to Ag-109
and emits 22 keV Ag K x-rays.  It also emits an 88 keV gamma from the
excited Ag-109 nucleus.  This gamma comes out about 4% of the time.  I
don't know what happens to the excess nuclear energy the other 96% of the
time.  Maybe the nucleus is only excited 4% of the time. 

>3) What is usually the distribution of energy between the neutrino and
>the gamma ray?

As far as I know you don't have to have gamma emission in EC decay.  Fe-55
is an example.  There is a very low level emission from the Fe-55 nucleus
called "internal bremstrahllung".  It's supposed to range out to 300 keV
but I have never been able to observe it (i.e it's quite low in intensity).



Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Electron Capture
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 12:34:49 GMT
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On Sun, 02 Aug 1998 02:20:15 -0500, Scott Little wrote:

>At 04:27 AM 8/2/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>>1) Is a gamma ray always emitted during electron capture, or only a
>>percentage of the time?
>
>EC doesn't have to result in gamma emission at all...I think.
>
>EC creates a new element with the same A but 1 less Z.  For example, Fe-55
>becomes Mn-55 upon EC.  The new atom has a K-shell vacancy (the electron

The mass difference in this reaction is 231 keV.

>that was captured) and it behaves just like it had been excited by ordinary
>means.  A pecentage of the time, given by the fluorescent yield, K x-rays
>are emitted.  The rest of the time, Auger electrons are emitted.

Would these account for the whole 231 keV? 

>
>The EC event can leave the daughter nucleus in an excited state.  This does
>not occur in Fe-55 but it does occur in Cd-109.  Cd-109 decays to Ag-109
>and emits 22 keV Ag K x-rays.  It also emits an 88 keV gamma from the
>excited Ag-109 nucleus.  This gamma comes out about 4% of the time.  I
>don't know what happens to the excess nuclear energy the other 96% of the
>time.  Maybe the nucleus is only excited 4% of the time.

This decay yields 214 keV. So even 22 + 88 (110) is only about half
the energy. The rest must go with the neutrino ?

>
>>3) What is usually the distribution of energy between the neutrino and
>>the gamma ray?
>
>As far as I know you don't have to have gamma emission in EC decay.  Fe-55
>is an example.  There is a very low level emission from the Fe-55 nucleus
>called "internal bremstrahllung".  It's supposed to range out to 300 keV
>but I have never been able to observe it (i.e it's quite low in intensity).

How does one get 300 keV out of a mass difference of 231 keV?
(Interesting difference: 70 keV - reminds of that Italian Prof.
name(?)).
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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Subject: Re: Electron Capture
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 Scott Little answered Robin van Spaandonk:
>>1) Is a gamma ray always emitted during electron capture, or only a
>>percentage of the time?

>EC doesn't have to result in gamma emission at all...I think.
>EC creates a new element with the same A but 1 less Z.  For example, Fe-55
>becomes Mn-55 upon EC.  The new atom has a K-shell vacancy (the electron
>that was captured) and it behaves just like it had been excited by ordinary
>means.  A pecentage of the time, given by the fluorescent yield, K x-rays
>are emitted.  The rest of the time, Auger electrons are emitted.
>The EC event can leave the daughter nucleus in an excited state.  This does
>not occur in Fe-55 but it does occur in Cd-109.  Cd-109 decays to Ag-109
>and emits 22 keV Ag K x-rays.  It also emits an 88 keV gamma from the
>excited Ag-109 nucleus.  This gamma comes out about 4% of the time.  I
>don't know what happens to the excess nuclear energy the other 96% of the
>time.  Maybe the nucleus is only excited 4% of the time. 


>>3) What is usually the distribution of energy between the neutrino and
>>the gamma ray?

>As far as I know you don't have to have gamma emission in EC decay.  Fe-55
>is an example.  There is a very low level emission from the Fe-55 nucleus
>called "internal bremstrahllung".  It's supposed to range out to 300 keV
>but I have never been able to observe it (i.e it's quite low in intensity).


 Good to read Robin and Scott considering this.

  Other comments, corrections, calc and additions, 
re: electron capture [EC].

    EC releases a neutrino.

    K capture is more common, but capture by a L 
or M electron also does occur.

    The Auger electron contribute to "local energy" 
while the fluorescent radiation creates remote 
energy distribution.

   Z < 35 is the breakpoint on the periodic chart
for where these reactions change contributions.


     Example and calc:

    Consider 7Be4 which has a half life of about 53 days. 

    12% of the time 7Li3 forms in ITS excited state and upon
decay to the 7Li3 ground state, it releases .478 MeV gamma rays.

    88% of the time 7Be4 goes directly to the 7Li3 ground state.
  The hole formed yields 50 eV.  The recoiling 7Li3 and the 
neutrino must carry the [.863 MeV - 50 eV] with most going 
to the neutrino.

   Result of this simple example.

       Per 100 decays or 7Be4, there are 
12 gamma rays     .478MeV
100 neutrinos, with 88 being very high energy
   of energy ~0.863 MeV
100 low energy xrays with energies ~50 eV

  Hope that helps.

   Mitchell Swartz



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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Electron Capture
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At 09:52 AM 8/2/98 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>   Result of this simple example.
>
>Per 100 decays or 7Be4, there are 
>12 gamma rays     .478MeV
>100 neutrinos, with 88 being very high energy
>of energy ~0.863 MeV
>100 low energy xrays with energies ~50 eV

Assuming it's a K electron capture, can Li's lone L electron enable the
excited Li atom to decay by Auger emission?


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Electron Capture - oops!
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Funny how actually posting something to Vortex stimulates additional
consideration of the subject.

I just asked Mitchell:

>Assuming it's a K electron capture, can Li's lone L electron enable the
>excited Li atom to decay by Auger emission?

...and then realized that Li's lone L electron is intimately involved in
the atomic decay process...it's the only electron available to fill the
K-shell vacancy!  This would appear to rule out Auger emission for Li.  Is
Be the lightest element that can emit Auger electons?


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

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-----Original Message-----
From:	Robin van Spaandonk [SMTP:rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au]
Sent:	Sunday, August 02, 1998 2:04 AM
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	Re: FTL Communication

>>hell of an irresolvable paradox. To quote the famous Daffy Duck: "What a 
>>foul predicament!"
>[snip]
>Shouldn't that be ..."fowl predicament"? ;)

Heheh...yeah it should be:)

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  2 08:37:36 1998
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

<nips>
 
> As an incredible babe formerly engaged to a Mr. Tinsley once told me: "Stay
> out of the deep end, Rick."
> 
> Damnfine advice.   ;)
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI

But, then, how would one ever learn to swim?

Terry

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From:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/sci/tech/newsid_142000/142889.stm

BBC News Online: Sci/Tech

Friday, July 31, 1998 Published at 07:58 GMT 08:58 UK 

Mars meteorite in UK hands 

UK scientists are hoping to make the next breakthrough in the 
search for evidence of life on Mars. 

They are analysing a small sample of a meteorite which landed in 
the Sahara desert. 

A UK team is also trying to raise enough money to send their own 
robot explorer to study the surface of the red planet. 

The meteorite left Mars a million years ago and is the size of a 
melon. 

The discovery comes two years after American scientists said 
they had found microscopic fossils in another Mars meteorite. 

Very expensive rock Nasa scientist Everett Gibson, who led that 
investigation, said: "We found the remains of biological 
activity. 

"I'm optimistic and looking forward to hopefully getting a few 
grammes of this material and we can put the powerful analytical 
tools to begin to decode the messages carried by this rock." 

But the new Mars rock is in the hands of a private collector who 
could sell it for millions. 

British scientists have been given a tiny sample and the leading 
expert has made a passionate appeal to the collector for a 
bigger slice. 

Dr Monica Grady of the Natural History Museum said: "Please give 
the scientific community about 20 to 50 grams of meteorite to 
work with." 

She added: "You won't regret it." 

UK calling Mars Analysing meteorites is the cheapest way of 
gathering information on Mars. But there are now plans to send a 
UK probe to the planet. 

Top UK space scientist Professor Colin Pillinger has unveiled 
his plans for Project Beagle, a tiny robot that would land on 
the surface of Mars. 

It would travel to the planet on board Europe's Mars Express and 
parachute onto the surface of Mars to probe and analyse the soil 
for signs of life. 

The project now has three months to find £25m to finance its 
mission to Mars.

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Subject: Permanent Magnet Propulsion
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Source: The Modesto Bee
Date: July 28  1998
Header:Magnets put scientist on right track
Byline:  J.N. Sbranti

   When the physicist handed him that box of 100 magnets with a
sketch of how to arrange them, Bill Kent figured it wouldn't fly --
literally.

   But it was Kent's job to prove the scientists right or wrong, so
the Ceres resident built a magnetic levitation train from scratch.

   "I remember the first day I launched it, and it flew. I was
amazed," said Kent. "All of a sudden I could share the vision the
bosses had."

   That vision materialized a few months ago in a dingy sub-basement
at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, where Kent crafted a
magnet-powered train prototype atop a 60-foot track.

   "Some day we could have maglev trains crisscrossing the state.
They'll be safe and cheap," said Kent, whose enthusiasm grows every
time he sees the prototype soar. "Defying gravity and flying without
some additional energy input is pretty incredible."

   The repulsive properties of magnets have been known for centuries.
What's new is being able to harness that power safely and
efficiently. The "Inductrack" train assembled by Kent is the first
levitated model to use passive permanent magnets.

   Powerful rare-earth magnets arrayed in a special pattern under the
train create a magnetic field as they pass over the inductive coils
wrapped around the track.

   That field causes the track to repel the magnets, levitating the
train. The energized coils make the track function like a linear
motor, providing both acceleration and braking.

   "It's an innovative application of a simple principal," said Kent.
"That's what most inventions usually are."

   At age 44, Kent finds himself in the thick of cutting-edge
inventions. In his two decades "knocking around" the Livermore Lab,
Kent said he's dabbled with magnetic fusion, electron beams, lasers,
vacuums and now flying trains.

   A career as a mechanical technologist is not what Kent planned on
when he earned his junior college electrical degree.

   "I sort of thought I was going to be an electrician for life,"
Kent said. But a downturn in the building trades 20 years ago forced
him to accept a temporary job at the lab.

   "Once I got here, I caught the lab bug, and I've never wanted to
leave," he said. "The assignments here vary so much I love it.
Anything's possible. ... And the lab has great education
opportunities for taking course work in the sciences."

   His natural curiosity and passion for tinkering proved a perfect
match for life at the lab.

   "Bill Kent is our right-hand guy in making our high-tech stuff
come together," said mechanical engineer Ray Smith, who works with
physicist Richard Post on the Inductrack project. "Bill's the one who
went out and built all the hardware and got all the rails just
right."

   There were no blueprints to follow in building the maglev train.

   "This is not a very formal engineering project," Smith explains.
"It's one where you evolve the engineering as you go."

   So Kent winged it.

   "We had to be a little creative because we had a low budget," said
Kent, who's known for darting about his underground workshop in a
light-blue lab coat.

   He did most of the electrical, mechanical and carpentry work on
the train and track with his own hands, and he scrounged around for
bargain parts.

   In his earliest model, Kent gave the 50-pound train a jump start
by connecting it to a 300-pound bucket of bricks dropped from a
pulley hung from the ceiling.

   These days, a tug from a modified bungee cord gets the train
moving. Once it's on its way, the magnets take over.

   Since research on the project began three years ago, the lab has
spent about $450,000 to develop Inductrack.

   There's more to come. NASA has awarded the lab a $1.5 million
grant to build a larger, faster prototype for potential use in
launching satellites. The maglev tracks would run up a ramp,
accelerating a rocket to near Mach 1 before its main engines fire.

   "We've kidded that this will make a great amusement park ride,"
said Kent, who will help build the NASA model.

   He's excited by the prospect of Inductrack becoming reality. Many
of his previous Livermore Lab projects haven't.

   "Working in research and development, it's not unusual to be
disappointed because not everything works," Kent said. "But this time
we proved the theory worked great."

-- end --

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  2 09:50:51 1998
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Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 09:46:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
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Vortex- 
 
  For the benefit of those who weren't here back in October of last
 year  I  am  reposting  Ralph  Sansbury's  light  pulse experiment
 description (below) and the  setup  diagram  as a file attachment
 to this message.
 
  BTW  ,  does  anyone  know  how  to  set  up Microsoft's Internet
 Explorer for Windows 3.1 and  it's  "Internet  Mail"  function  to
 accomodate  file  attachments? How does one  upload  and  download
 files for attachment to messages using IE?
 
  I have been a unix shell user all this time and  have  been  very
 happy  with  it until some three months ago my ISP with no warning
 to me whatsoever did something which caused my  ymodem-g  to  quit
 working.  They off-loaded my files to somewhere in FTP land and I
 can't find an FTP function in IE or  Windows  anywhere.  They  (my
 ISP)  refuse  to undo whatever it was they did and want me to "get
 out of the dark ages" and upgrade my system to accomodate THEM.
 
  So  I  went  ahead and loaded up MSIE from the disks they sent me
 and it refuses to let me even log on to them! BUT  I  can  log  on
 using one of their tech's username and password.
 
  This tells me that there is something in the log in sequence over
 there that responds to my username that  automatically  shunts  me
 over  to  unix  , and that no feature was ever enabled to use slip
 when I need to like the boss over there told me he  did  (he  said
 he enabled slip). In other words he lied to me.
 
  This  makes me not trust them at all so I'm looking for a new ISP
 and presently have a backup server lined up with local  tech  help
 so  I can download my more recent files by emailing them to my new
 account . But they don't have unix shell, only Netscape , IE etc.
 
  Any hints from the MSIE pros would be appreciated.
 
 Jim Ostrowski
 
---------------------------cut here-------------------------------- 
 

                          Sansbury on his experiment

     We tend to think of light as a thing, eg, a wave front in  a  massless
    ether,  a massless photon, or now, according to quantum electrodynamics
    and photonics, as a probabilistic photon.

     But suppose light was instead the cumulative effect  of  instantaneous
    forces at a distance for distances large relative to the atom.

     Then if we could emit a brief, say 10 nanosecond, laser pulse of light
    toward  a  photodiode  28  feet  away but blocked the light path at the
    photodiode until the expected time of arrival of the beginning  of  the
    light  pulse  (28  nanoseconds  later)  we might not observe any signal
    above background noise in the photodiode.

     Whereas if we left the photodiode unblocked for all or some of the  .38
    nanoseconds  of  emission  time plus travel time and observed a signal,
    then our supposition would be prvven.

     An  experiment was carried out under contract with Quantum Technology,
    a manufacturer of Pockel crystal modulators, to determine the  validity
    of this supposition.

     The  light  source  was  a continuous laser (514nm Argon laser,Spectra
    Physics 168-69)that could be blocked or  unblocked  at  the  source  by
    applying  to  a Quantum Technology ADP crystal directly in front of the
    laser; a 100 volt pulse from a Quantum Technology voltage driver  model
    3100  across  the crystal rotated the polarization of light transmitted
    by the crystal  90  degrees.   The  light  would  then  be  blocked  or
    transmitted by a polarizer until the voltage was reduced to zero.

      The  rise  and  fall  times  of  transmission  using these devices is
    according to specs 7nsec. An identical crystal modulator and  polarizer
    and voltage driver was placed in front of a photodiode receiver 18 feet
    from  a  mirror that itself was 10 feet from the source polarizer.  The
    drivers were controlled by 1 volt pulses from pulse generators.

     On the first pulse generator(an HP  8004A)  the  pulse  width  of  the
    square  source  pulse  was  set  to 10nsec and the cycle time to 3.3mhz
    (300nsec).  Initially only the first modulator was pulsed and the laser
    power emitted at first was about 25 mV  sufficient  to  produce  a  3mV
    maximum  reaction  of the photodiode when the photodiode was unblocked;
    then a .1volt increase on the rising edge of  the  10nsec  pulse  every
    300nsec triggered the second pulse generator (a Data Pulse 113).


     The  delay  on  the  second  pulse generator was set as required; this
    delay time represented the time between  the  trigger  from  the  first
    pulse  generator  and the pulse producing a transmission pulse in front
    of the photodiode; this delay was set to 28nsec minus the cable  delay;
    the distance from the source optics to the receiver optics was 28 feet;
    this delay was reduced by one nsec and the transmission pulse width was
    widened  by  one  nsec in successive steps until no further increase in
    the phodiode response was produced. All other  windows  of  this  width
    produced smaller photodiode responses.


     Then the laser power was quadrupled and  the  delay  and  pulse  width
    adjusted  as  before to produce the maximum photodiode response and non
    noise area of the response curve. The connections  between  the  source
    pulse driver and crystal modulator and those between the receiver pulse
    driver  and  crystal modulator were 12 feet and those between the pulse
    drivers and pulse generators  were  6  feet  as  were  the  connections
    between the pulse generators and the oscilloscope .

     The  connections  between  the two pulse generators was 1 foot and the
    electrical delay adjustment was made as described above. The spec delay
    of the cable was confirmed by sending a pulse from the pulse  generator
    into  two  channels  of the oscilloscope where one connector was 1 foot
    longer using this piece of cable.  Hence the time between  the  trigger
    point  on  the  oscilloscope  and  the square pulse of the second pulse
    generator was the  time  to  the  nearest  .1nsec  between  the  actual
    trapezoidal  pulses  of the crystal modulator in front of the laser and
    of that in front of the photodiode.

     The second channel of the oscilloscope  showed  the  response  of  the
    photodiode,  a  FND-100Q  from  EEG,of Salem,Mass.  connected to a bias
    voltage supply that was variable up to 100 volts; the rise time of  the
    photodiode  voltage  through  a  50ohm resistance was less than 1 nsec;
    that is it produced .36Amps/Watt at 514nm. Also according to specs  the
    dark  current  was 10 to 25nAmps, the active surface is a square 2.24mm
    by 2.24mm. So 1mWatt produced 00036Amps which through a 50 ohm resistor
    produced about 1.8mV.

     A 12 foot cable was connected from  the  same  side  of  the  grounded
    resistor  as  the  photodiode  to  an oscilloscope which registered non
    noise voltages when the receiver pulse of various widths had the  right
    delay relative to the source pulse.


     It  was apparent from this experiment that exposure of a photodiode to
    a flash of monochromatic light traveling toward the  photodiode  during
    the  time  of  travel  and  before  the  expected time of arrival could
    produce a signal on the photodiode that was not  produced  if  exposure
    was blocked until the expected time of arrival.


     Also  in  this  experiment  when  the intensity of the laser flash was
    quadrupled, the delay before  the  rise  time  of  the  signal  on  the
    photodiode was halved etc.. To me these results imply that light is the
    cumulative  effect of instantaneous forces; That light is perhaps not a
    moving thing like an ether wave front or a photon, even a probabalistic
    photon, would avoid the problem of the masslessness of the ether and of
    the photon but would pose other problems since we are so accustomed  to
    thinking  of light in this way. But if one can interpret the results of
    this experiment differently or if one can obtain different results  let
    me know.

     The  experiment  was  motivated  by  considerations  such  as that the
    Fizeau-Foucault  -Michelson  light  speed  measurments   used   various
    intensities  but generally such that the intensity at the receiver lens
    was about the same in all these cases and that no attempt was  made  to
    measure  variations  in  light speed associated with markedly different
    levels of intensity.

     Another consideration was  that  Bradley's  stellar  aberration  light
    speed  measurement  sees  to  be explainable in terms of the cumulative
    effect of instantaneous forces at a distance.

     This implies that Roemer's light speed measurement  could  be  due  to
    changes  in  intensity of the light reflected by Jupiter's moons toward
    the earth due to the changes in distance between the Earth and  Jupiter
    and  these changes in intensity, not the speed of light, determined how
    soon one could spot a moon emerging from behind Jupiter.   Indeed  this
    interpretation  is  supported  by the fact mentioned in Bradley's paper
    that other larger moons (eg Europa) did not show the  same  differences
    as Io.

    {end}





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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  2 11:19:50 1998
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Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 11:15:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Light Pulse experiment re-post
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Vortex- 
 
  For the benefit of those who weren't here back in October of last
 year  I  am  reposting  Ralph  Sansbury's  light  pulse experiment
 description (below) and the  setup  diagram  as a file attachment
 to this message.
 
  BTW  ,  does  anyone  know  how  to  set  up Microsoft's Internet
 Explorer for Windows 3.1 and  it's  "Internet  Mail"  function  to
 accomodate  file  attachments? How does one  upload  and  download
 files for attachment to messages using IE?
 
  I have been a unix shell user all this time and  have  been  very
 happy  with  it until some three months ago my ISP with no warning
 to me whatsoever did something which caused my  ymodem-g  to  quit
 working.  They off-loaded my files to somewhere in FTP land and I
 can't find an FTP function in IE or  Windows  anywhere.  They  (my
 ISP)  refuse  to undo whatever it was they did and want me to "get
 out of the dark ages" and upgrade my system to accomodate THEM.
 
  So  I  went  ahead and loaded up MSIE from the disks they sent me
 and it refuses to let me even log on to them! BUT  I  can  log  on
 using one of their tech's username and password.
 
  This tells me that there is something in the log in sequence over
 there that responds to my username that  automatically  shunts  me
 over  to  unix  , and that no feature was ever enabled to use slip
 when I need to like the boss over there told me he  did  (he  said
 he enabled slip). In other words he lied to me.
 
  This  makes me not trust them at all so I'm looking for a new ISP
 and presently have a backup server lined up with local  tech  help
 so  I can download my more recent files by emailing them to my new
 account . But they don't have unix shell, only Netscape , IE etc.
 
  Any hints from the MSIE pros would be appreciated.
 
 Jim Ostrowski
 
---------------------------cut here-------------------------------- 
 

                          Sansbury on his experiment

     We tend to think of light as a thing, eg, a wave front in  a  massless
    ether,  a massless photon, or now, according to quantum electrodynamics
    and photonics, as a probabilistic photon.

     But suppose light was instead the cumulative effect  of  instantaneous
    forces at a distance for distances large relative to the atom.

     Then if we could emit a brief, say 10 nanosecond, laser pulse of light
    toward  a  photodiode  28  feet  away but blocked the light path at the
    photodiode until the expected time of arrival of the beginning  of  the
    light  pulse  (28  nanoseconds  later)  we might not observe any signal
    above background noise in the photodiode.

     Whereas if we left the photodiode unblocked for all or some of the  .38
    nanoseconds  of  emission  time plus travel time and observed a signal,
    then our supposition would be prvven.

     An  experiment was carried out under contract with Quantum Technology,
    a manufacturer of Pockel crystal modulators, to determine the  validity
    of this supposition..

     The  light  source  was  a continuous laser (514nm Argon laser,Spectra
    Physics 168-69)that could be blocked or  unblocked  at  the  source  by
    applying  to  a Quantum Technology ADP crystal directly in front of the
    laser; a 100 volt pulse from a Quantum Technology voltage driver  model
    3100  across  the crystal rotated the polarization of light transmitted
    by the crystal  90  degrees.   The  light  would  then  be  blocked  or
    transmitted by a polarizer until the voltage was reduced to zero.

      The  rise  and  fall  times  of  transmission  using these devices is
    according to specs 7nsec. An identical crystal modulator and  polarizer
    and voltage driver was placed in front of a photodiode receiver 18 feet
    from  a  mirror that itself was 10 feet from the source polarizer.  The
    drivers were controlled by 1 volt pulses from pulse generators.

     On the first pulse generator(an HP  8004A)  the  pulse  width  of  the
    square  source  pulse  was  set  to 10nsec and the cycle time to 3.3mhz
    (300nsec).  Initially only the first modulator was pulsed and the laser
    power emitted at first was about 25 mV  sufficient  to  produce  a  3mV
    maximum  reaction  of the photodiode when the photodiode was unblocked;
    then a .1volt increase on the rising edge of  the  10nsec  pulse  every
    300nsec triggered the second pulse generator (a Data Pulse 113).


     The  delay  on  the  second  pulse generator was set as required; this
    delay time represented the time between  the  trigger  from  the  first
    pulse  generator  and the pulse producing a transmission pulse in front
    of the photodiode; this delay was set to 28nsec minus the cable  delay;
    the distance from the source optics to the receiver optics was 28 feet;
    this delay was reduced by one nsec and the transmission pulse width was
    widened  by  one  nsec in successive steps until no further increase in
    the phodiode response was produced. All other  windows  of  this  width
    produced smaller photodiode responses.


     Then the laser power was quadrupled and  the  delay  and  pulse  width
    adjusted  as  before to produce the maximum photodiode response and non
    noise area of the response curve. The connections  between  the  source
    pulse driver and crystal modulator and those between the receiver pulse
    driver  and  crystal modulator were 12 feet and those between the pulse
    drivers and pulse generators  were  6  feet  as  were  the  connections
    between the pulse generators and the oscilloscope .

     The  connections  between  the two pulse generators was 1 foot and the
    electrical delay adjustment was made as described above. The spec delay
    of the cable was confirmed by sending a pulse from the pulse  generator
    into  two  channels  of the oscilloscope where one connector was 1 foot
    longer using this piece of cable.  Hence the time between  the  trigger
    point  on  the  oscilloscope  and  the square pulse of the second pulse
    generator was the  time  to  the  nearest  .1nsec  between  the  actual
    trapezoidal  pulses  of the crystal modulator in front of the laser and
    of that in front of the photodiode.

     The second channel of the oscilloscope  showed  the  response  of  the
    photodiode,  a  FND-100Q  from  EEG,of Salem,Mass.  connected to a bias
    voltage supply that was variable up to 100 volts; the rise time of  the
    photodiode  voltage  through  a  50ohm resistance was less than 1 nsec;
    that is it produced .36Amps/Watt at 514nm. Also according to specs  the
    dark  current  was 10 to 25nAmps, the active surface is a square 2.24mm
    by 2.24mm. So 1mWatt produced 00036Amps which through a 50 ohm resistor
    produced about 1.8mV.

     A 12 foot cable was connected from  the  same  side  of  the  grounded
    resistor  as  the  photodiode  to  an oscilloscope which registered non
    noise voltages when the receiver pulse of various widths had the  right
    delay relative to the source pulse.


     It  was apparent from this experiment that exposure of a photodiode to
    a flash of monochromatic light traveling toward the  photodiode  during
    the  time  of  travel  and  before  the  expected time of arrival could
    produce a signal on the photodiode that was not  produced  if  exposure
    was blocked until the expected time of arrival.


     Also  in  this  experiment  when  the intensity of the laser flash was
    quadrupled, the delay before  the  rise  time  of  the  signal  on  the
    photodiode was halved etc.. To me these results imply that light is the
    cumulative  effect of instantaneous forces; That light is perhaps not a
    moving thing like an ether wave front or a photon, even a probabalistic
    photon, would avoid the problem of the masslessness of the ether and of
    the photon but would pose other problems since we are so accustomed  to
    thinking  of light in this way. But if one can interpret the results of
    this experiment differently or if one can obtain different results  let
    me know.

     The  experiment  was  motivated  by  considerations  such  as that the
    Fizeau-Foucault  -Michelson  light  speed  measurments   used   various
    intensities  but generally such that the intensity at the receiver lens
    was about the same in all these cases and that no attempt was  made  to
    measure  variations  in  light speed associated with markedly different
    levels of intensity.

     Another consideration was  that  Bradley's  stellar  aberration  light
    speed  measurement  sees  to  be explainable in terms of the cumulative
    effect of instantaneous forces at a distance.

     This implies that Roemer's light speed measurement  could  be  due  to
    changes  in  intensity of the light reflected by Jupiter's moons toward
    the earth due to the changes in distance between the Earth and  Jupiter
    and  these changes in intensity, not the speed of light, determined how
    soon one could spot a moon emerging from behind Jupiter.   Indeed  this
    interpretation  is  supported  by the fact mentioned in Bradley's paper
    that other larger moons (eg Europa) did not show the  same  differences
    as Io.

    {end}





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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  2 11:47:46 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From:	Jim Ostrowski [SMTP:jimostr victor1.mscomm.com]
Sent:	Sunday, August 02, 1998 11:47 AM
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	Light Pulse experiment re-post


<snip>

>    It  was apparent from this experiment that exposure of a photodiode to
>    a flash of monochromatic light traveling toward the  photodiode 
 during
>    the  time  of  travel  and  before  the  expected time of arrival 
could
>    produce a signal on the photodiode that was not  produced  if 
 exposure
>    was blocked until the expected time of arrival.

What is your interpretation of this, Jim? I have heard that it might be due 
to advanced waves, since superluminal effects are 'impossible'. Personally, 
I think it is funny that there is evidence for real superluminal effects, 
and physicists like to avoid it, but there is no evidence for advanced 
waves, yet physicists like to consider them.

Big speculation here:

Perhaps there is a component to a light 'wave' that travels at speed V>C 
from the emitter to the detector. The wave itself (or packet, photon, etc.) 
travels along this superluminal wave component to the detector. Without the 
superluminal component, the photon cannot procede. Picture it like this: 
you have a string stretched from point A to point B. You put an object on 
this string that can travel from point A to B only when attached to the 
string. The string represents the superluminal component of the light wave, 
and the object moving on the string represents the light pulse itself. If 
the string is blocked by something (and therefore doesn't reach the 
detector), the light pulse cannot reach the detector. Unfortunately, this 
is just speculation. We need more well concieved experiments to fully 
investigate the unknowns about photonics.

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  2 14:12:16 1998
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Subject: RE: Light Pulse experiment re-post
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Kyle -

You're thinking pretty much like I am on this. Your V>c is the advanced wave.

I visualize a wave from the emitter splitting into time-forward (advanced)
and time-reversed (retarded) components. These components 'reassemble' at
the target, and sum up correctly to yield conventional results - unless
somebody cleverly blocks some of one of those split components. The part of
this notion that I *don't* like is that it seems so "Bearden". He's always
going off about the "time reversed phase conjugate...". Maybe there's
something physical to it after all?

And isn't another way of looking at this like a sort of double-slit
experiment in the time or x axis (beam path) domain instead of the usual
y-z (plane of the slits) domain?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


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 {snip of light pulse exp description}
 
 Kyle Mcallister asked:
 
 > What  is  your  interpretation  of this, Jim?
 
  I  think it's tentative proof that almost everything ever written
 about "photons" is  basically  wrong,  except  those  writings  of
 physicists  such  as  Mendel Sachs or others who reject the photon
 model  for  the  single  frequency  (monochromatic)  light   case.
 Schroedinger comes to mind as well.
 
  I  should point out that there was an attempt made to "replicate"
 this experiment by Neal Graneau of Oxford and he was unable to  do
 so  with the apparatus he used .  I had the opportunity to monitor
 the email discussions between him and Sansbury at the  time  ,  (a
 couple of months ago) and he did not use the setup as described at
 all  ,  no  mirror  ,  different kinds of shutter cells and timing
 monitored with parallel wires instead of properly delay calibrated
 cables between the two voltage driver/pulse generators.
 
  He completely  set  up  this  way  too  without  ever  consulting
 Sansbury as to whether or not his improvisations were ok (Sansbury
 said  they  weren't)  .  We  didn't know a thing about what he was
 doing , either until one day,  bang  he  emails  us  and  said  he
 couldn't detect the effect (with his setup).
 
  The  gif  drawing  indicates a two channel scope for simplicity ,
 and apparently that's what Graneau used, but a three channel scope
 is required to monitor BOTH pulse generators  and  the  photodiode
 response  as  well  -  so  we  have  no idea from the little ascii
 drawing he provided for us as to how he calibrated the  timing  of
 the two pulse generators.
 
  I  have  worked  in  a few big name corporate labs and I must say
 I've never seen such poor documentation of an attempt to replicate
 an experiment as was provided to Sansbury by Graneau  .  I  should
 know  because  my  specialty  at  those  labs was documentation of
 experiments.  In all fairness to Neal , he was busy with a lot  of
 other  things  on his mind , including getting new funding for his
 department , but I really think he did Sansbury  a  disservice  by
 not  consulting  him  through  every  phase of his setting up then
 complaining that he couldn't replicate.
 
  We , (as a group including  Sansbury , Mendel Sachs  and  another
 participant   who  shall  remain  anonymous)  have  contacted  the
 distinguished Leonard Mandel of the University of Rochester NY . I
 talked with him on the phone and he agreed to look into  our  case
 although not necessarily to make a replication attempt (his optics
 lab is booked up for a while).
 
  So  I  am  currently  online  corresponding with Mandel about the
 implications , theoretical and  otherwise  ...and  we'll  see  what
 happens.
 
 > I  have  heard  that  it  might  be  due to advanced waves, since
 > superluminal effects are 'impossible'.  Personally, I think it  is
 > funny  that  there  is evidence for real superluminal effects, and
 > physicists like to avoid it, but there is no evidence for advanced
 > waves, yet physicists like to consider them.
 
  Advanced  potentials  need  no "evidence" because the evidence is
 right there staring everyone in the face in Maxwell's equations  .
 Half  of  all the possible solutions to these equations which make
 up the foundations of  the  extant  EM  theory  are  the  ADVANCED
 solutions.   Yet  they are rejected as being "unphysical" by every
 one of those knuckleheads such as "Uncle Al" Schwartz and  Richard
 Schumacher  and  the  rest  of  the  clique  over there dominating
 sci.physics ( whom many of us here on Vortex have been flamed  by,
 and avoid like the plague , except to check in now and then to see
 who they are frying THIS TIME).
 
  But  this  thing goes deeper than just those guys , Kyle. A while
 back Frank Stenger of this list pulled a quote out of his  physics
 book ,Halliday and Resnick, I think , which says it all pertaining
 to what this discussion is about:
 
        "Had we considered the function f(r - Vt), we should
        have obtained a solution depending on the advanced
        potentials.  Physically, this is impossible, since future
        events cannot affect past events!"
 
 Stupid  "causality paradox" reasoning  again  , and its been going on for
 decades in such textbooks.
 
 First of all , what takes place at spacetime co-ordinate  A deemed
 by a isolated - cause effect paradox dreamer upper as an "emitter"
 is influenced by conditions prevailing at spacetime co-ordinate B,
 the  so  called  absorber  .  It  "emits"  a  wave  consistent with
 prexisting conditions , as determined  by  more  or  less  by  the
 amount  of direct coupling to B in which the two MUTUALLY INTERACT
 with each other.
 
  Referring to "causality" or cause - effect scenarios  in  such  a
 mutually interacting system is just like saying  the  egg  has  to
 come  first  in  answer  to  the  question  "which came first, the
 chicken or the egg?".
 
 Of course there is no "correct" answer to this question unless  we
 first know which chicken and which egg .
 
  The causalist - paradox faction ignores this detail  however  and
 will  always posit the  emitter  as  cause  and  the  absorber  as
 effect!
 
  But  you  are  beginning  to  see  the problem here gramatically ,
 as well as logically aren't you , Kyle?
 
  If an emitter is labeled be the "cause" of an  "effect"  then  it
 seems  to  follow  that the absorber itself IS the effect from the
 way the statement is framed!
 
  But we both know that  neither do emitters CAUSE absorbers nor do
 emissions CAUSE absorptions or the other way around .
 
  But  if  in  fact  the disinformation experts are able to get you
 stuck on this very point you will be so thoroughly confused by the
 time  you've  finished  6  years  of  college  that  you  will  be
 gratefull  for  whatever passing grade your professors gave you in
 order to graduate.
 
 Sorry , I have to reject  your  "String  Theory"  as  "unphysical",
 Kyle , but I will leave it to you to promote that one wherever you
 want.  >; ^)
 
 Jim O.
 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  2 15:55:29 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From:	Rick Monteverde [SMTP:monteverde worldnet.att.net]
Sent:	Sunday, August 02, 1998 4:05 PM
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	RE: Light Pulse experiment re-post

>I visualize a wave from the emitter splitting into time-forward (advanced)
>and time-reversed (retarded) components.

I don't think there can be waves, or anything for that matter, that travel 
backwards in time. I think the evidence seems to point more toward 
superluminal (non-local) actions, rather than causality violation and 
backwards in time travel. If you really consider the idea of time reversal 
or time travel, it is nonsensical. Its like saying this: I send out a 
signal, and it takes an hour to reach the destination, and when it does, 
another wave is sent out that travels backwards in time to the moment I 
transmitted the signal in the first place, making me think that there is an 
instantaneous component to light. Since it traveled backwards in time, I 
never know the difference. Talk about an unprovable hypothesis! I'm 
surprised Occam's Razor wasn't used on the idea of time reversal. This 
stuff actually comes out of science textbooks.

This is what I think happens: there is a superluminal component to the 
light wave that cannot be blocked, or the information carrying part of the 
wave will not be able to pass. No causality violation, no 'time reversed' 
waves. Just superluminal motion, which makes a lot more sense that 
reversing the arrow of time. I personally think that if and when 
superluminal signalling is accomplished, special relativity will be toast.

Kyle R. Mcallister

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-----Original Message-----
From:	Jim Ostrowski [SMTP:jimostr victor1.mscomm.com]
Sent:	Sunday, August 02, 1998 5:43 PM
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	RE: Light Pulse experiment re-post


>  Advanced  potentials  need  no "evidence" because the evidence is
> right there staring everyone in the face in Maxwell's equations  .

Which happens to be a theory, not an experiment. I'm not saying that 
Maxwell's equations are necessarily wrong, rather that there is no 
experiment that confirms that backwards in time traveling waves exist. 
Therefore, it is very unphysical to say that they exist, when no evidence 
is there to support it. There is evidence for superluminal effects.

>  But  this  thing goes deeper than just those guys , Kyle. A while
> back Frank Stenger of this list pulled a quote out of his  physics
> book ,Halliday and Resnick, I think , which says it all pertaining
> to what this discussion is about:

>       "Had we considered the function f(r - Vt), we should
>        have obtained a solution depending on the advanced
>        potentials.  Physically, this is impossible, since future
>        events cannot affect past events!"

Exactly. Future events cannot affect the past. It is totally non-physical, 
and totally paradoxical. I will show you again the paradox that comes to 
mind. Future events cannot affect the past, because the future does not 
exist yet. Neither does the past still exist. We are at an impasse though; 
I cannot prove that the future doesn't exist, and you can't prove that the 
future does exist.

> Stupid  "causality paradox" reasoning  again  , and its been going on for
> decades in such textbooks.

Causality paradoxes are nothing. Try an advanced signalling paradox. That's 
a Paradox with a capital P.

>  Referring to "causality" or cause - effect scenarios  in  such  a
> mutually interacting system is just like saying  the  egg  has  to
> come  first  in  answer  to  the  question  "which came first, the
> chicken or the egg?".

Arguing about the chicken is irrelevant. What makes a detector, and what 
makes an emitter? They can vary in different situations. Time travel 
implies objects/energy/etc. arriving from NOTHINGNESS.

>  But  you  are  beginning  to  see  the problem here gramatically ,
> as well as logically aren't you , Kyle?

I think so. But I still do not believe that a wave can travel backwards in 
time.

>  If an emitter is labeled be the "cause" of an  "effect"  then  it
> seems  to  follow  that the absorber itself IS the effect from the
> way the statement is framed!

If the absorber is the cause, then we have instantaneous action at a 
distance, or causality violation. The light wave is generated at the 
emitter by the absorber, and flies into the absorber. Interesting, but it 
doesn't make any sense at all. That is, if I understood you correctly.

>  But  if  in  fact  the disinformation experts are able to get you
> stuck on this very point you will be so thoroughly confused by the
> time  you've  finished  6  years  of  college  that  you  will  be
> gratefull  for  whatever passing grade your professors gave you in
> order to graduate.

I'm not saying that conventional photonic theory is correct. I don't think 
it is. But I'm not buying the idea of backwards in time transmission.

> Sorry , I have to reject  your  "String  Theory"  as  "unphysical",
> Kyle , but I will leave it to you to promote that one wherever you
> want.  >; ^)

Well, maybe it's not correct. But it does make more sense that backwards in 
time signalling. Picture this, as an argument against anticausality:
I build a transmitter that will send a signal to a detector via an advanced 
wave (mentioned in Nick Herbert's book, Faster than light). The moment 
before I pull the lever to send the signal, the signal THAT I HAVE NOT YET 
SENT arrives from the future, and is recorded on my graph at the reciever. 
Now, I decide that I don't want to send the signal. Either:
A. A signal came from NOWHERE and NOWHEN, since it was never sent. 
Impossible.
B. The reciever is intelligent enough to know that I will send a signal to 
it, and conspires to produce a signal. Impossible.
C. Causality violates in a most displeasing way, and the entire situation 
ceases to exist. Probably impossible also.

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  2 18:52:14 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Light Pulse experiment re-post
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 01:48:53 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Sun, 2 Aug 1998 15:43:09 -0700 (PDT), Jim Ostrowski wrote:
[snip]
>  Referring to "causality" or cause - effect scenarios  in  such  a
> mutually interacting system is just like saying  the  egg  has  to
> come  first  in  answer  to  the  question  "which came first, the
> chicken or the egg?".
[snip]
Actually the egg came first. The very first chicken was hatched from
an egg laid by something else. Of course, you could argue that the egg
it came from wasn't a chicken egg.... ;).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  2 19:01:09 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Light Pulse experiment re-post
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 01:56:58 GMT
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On Sun, 2 Aug 1998 19:58:03 -0500, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
[snip]
>wave (mentioned in Nick Herbert's book, Faster than light). The moment 
>before I pull the lever to send the signal, the signal THAT I HAVE NOT YET 
>SENT arrives from the future, and is recorded on my graph at the reciever. 
>Now, I decide that I don't want to send the signal. Either:
>A. A signal came from NOWHERE and NOWHEN, since it was never sent. 
>Impossible.
>B. The reciever is intelligent enough to know that I will send a signal to 
>it, and conspires to produce a signal. Impossible.
>C. Causality violates in a most displeasing way, and the entire situation 
>ceases to exist. Probably impossible also.
>
>Kyle R. Mcallister
D. You can't decide not to send the signal once you have received the
signal from the future. Free will is an illusion.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  2 19:36:31 1998
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From: jeff fink <revtec ptd.net>
Subject: Re: is PVC safe for drinking water (OFF TOPIC)
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I tore down my PAGD apparatus to make room to build a boat.
The boat will be outside continuously.  It is a 20 ft. 
replica of a Mississippi river stern wheeler.  In order to
make it last forever I am building it of 1/2 in. integral 
skin foam core PVC sheet called Komacel made in Germany.
The hull is nearly 2/3 complete.

The way you guys are talking about PVC it looks like I shot 
myself in the foot.  HELP!


Jeff Fink

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-----Original Message-----
From:	Robin van Spaandonk [SMTP:rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au]
Sent:	Sunday, August 02, 1998 8:49 PM
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	Re: Light Pulse experiment re-post

>Actually the egg came first. The very first chicken was hatched from
>an egg laid by something else. Of course, you could argue that the egg
>it came from wasn't a chicken egg.... ;).

It was laid by advanced, chicken-like aliens who traveled backwards in time 
using advanced wave propulsion systems. They laid the egg on the earth in 
the past to make it easier for them to conquer the earth of the future. 
Chickens will be their fighting force:-)

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  2 21:33:49 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From:	Robin van Spaandonk [SMTP:rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au]
Sent:	Sunday, August 02, 1998 8:57 PM
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	Re: Light Pulse experiment re-post

>D. You can't decide not to send the signal once you have received the
>signal from the future. Free will is an illusion.

Everything is written down already, and we're just pawns in a sort of 
cosmic game. No free choice can ever be made. Well, maybe. It certainly 
makes sense, the way life is. I think there's probably more to it than just 
that though. I'll bet it doesn't involve temporal travel.

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  2 23:10:44 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Light Pulse experiment re-post
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 06:01:33 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Sun, 2 Aug 1998 23:18:47 -0500, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
[snip]
>Chickens will be their fighting force:-)
>
>Kyle R. Mcallister
That must be why they are called "battery hens" ;).

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  2 23:13:43 1998
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On Sun, 02 Aug 1998 09:52:57 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
[snip]
>    The Auger electron contribute to "local energy" 
>while the fluorescent radiation creates remote 
>energy distribution.
>
>   Z < 35 is the breakpoint on the periodic chart
>for where these reactions change contributions.
[snip]
Yes, but which is dominant below Z=35?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  3 08:02:26 1998
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On Sun, 2 Aug 1998, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Kyle -
> 
> You're thinking pretty much like I am on this. Your V>c is the advanced wave.
> 
> I visualize a wave from the emitter splitting into time-forward (advanced)
> and time-reversed (retarded) components. These components 'reassemble' at
> the target, and sum up correctly to yield conventional results - unless
> somebody cleverly blocks some of one of those split components. The part of
> this notion that I *don't* like is that it seems so "Bearden". He's always
> going off about the "time reversed phase conjugate...". Maybe there's
> something physical to it after all?
> 
> And isn't another way of looking at this like a sort of double-slit
> experiment in the time or x axis (beam path) domain instead of the usual
> y-z (plane of the slits) domain?

Rick-

Please continue with this analogy. It's interesting. Are you sure you
don't want to take up our invitation to join the ccmail discussion with
Sachs and Sansbury? 

Jim


> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  3 08:19:52 1998
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jeff fink wrote:
> In order to
> make it last forever I am building it of 1/2 in. integral
> skin foam core PVC sheet called Komacel made in Germany.

Common misconception, but plastics don't "last forever".  Contrary to popular
opinion, they are all very vulnerable to structural degradation from heat,
light, and chemicals.  Typically this degredation is a function of oxidation of
the polymer chains.  Of all the extreme and abusive tests we put our products
through, the show stopper is usually a mixture of various over-the-counter
cosmetic products and a synthetic face oil.  The most caustic element in the
mixure being...... suntan lotion.

> The hull is nearly 2/3 complete.
> The way you guys are talking about PVC it looks like I shot
> myself in the foot.  HELP!

No.  What you need to consider now is how you are goint to protect the exposed
surfaces from UV.  Here is a good listing of PVC's properties:
<http://www.plasticsusa.com/pvc.html>

I don't have all my reference books here to give you specifics, but a quick
search online turned up an outfit you may want to get more information from. 
They manufacture PVC outdoor/indoor furniture and boast a top coat finish to
protects them:
<http://www.fusioncoatings.com/index.html>

I will go prospecting in my files at home and see what I have.  I had a PVC
finishing project a few years back, but I don't recall the details.  I think I
have psychologically blocked that past work experience... ha ha ha.

You're not screwed, you just overlooked a step.  8^)


-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
         Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
         Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  3 08:21:55 1998
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Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:09:49 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: Re: Something flied very above the sound speed
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Hello Hamdi and Vo,

We have internet at new location but network is dedicated to very 
numerically intensive processing and remotely logging onto iesun9 is 
vvvvvery sssslow. Bare with me, using type ahead :)

When a pahse is super fluid, no distinction between gas and liquid, just 
'fluid'. For speed of sound you'd need density and that is typically 1/10 
to 1/100 of liquid phase. No take Billb's suggestion (sound arcing 
upwards) and mine that the mach cone is very narrow  to get answer why 
you didn't hear anyting.

I thinkinbg about using my company's email for vortex becasue this is 
nearly impossible but if you saw who the company was, you might think I'd 
'turncoated' new energy.

Remi.

p.s. by for now until I think of a way of making this damn thing useable.

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Hamdi Ucar wrote:

> It doesn't appeared yesterday and try to repost.
> (this is my sixth try! Sorry if it appears multiple in your boxes)
> 
> Ironically my test message worked fine. May the server does not like spelling errors on subject line. :-)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  3 08:20:10 1998
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Subject: RE: FTL Communication
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I believe you are correct
Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Kyle R. Mcallister[SMTP:stk sunherald.infi.net]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Saturday, August 01, 1998 4:29 PM
> To: 	'John Schnurer'
> Cc: 	'vortex-l eskimo.com'
> Subject: 	RE: FTL Communication
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	John Schnurer [SMTP:herman antioch-college.edu]
> Sent:	Saturday, August 01, 1998 12:59 AM
> To:	Kyle R. Mcallister
> Cc:	'John Schnurer'
> Subject:	RE: FTL Communication
> 
> >> Yes, but can such a system be used to transmit a message from point A
> to 
> >> point B in a time less than D/C? In other words, can this transmit a
> >> message to a star 5 light years away in less than five years? That's 
> what
> >> would be really neat.
> >> Or if continuous beam can be sent in 5 years to the destination, and
> >> messages be sent along this beam FTL...
> >>
> >	You got it.... once the beam is from here to there the PHASE
> >change can easily exceed C... and this has not only  been DONE... it is
> >in tables of antenna design!
> 
> I looked up phase velocity signalling in Nick Herbert's book 
> "Faster-than-light: superluminal loopholes in physics". According to 
> Herbert, phase waves can't be used to send signals FTL. The setup
> described 
> in the book is like this:
> 
> 1. I decide to send a continuous radio beam to my friend Timothy. He lets 
> me know that he has the beam at his reciever.
> 2. I try to modulate the phase waves to send a message FTL to Timothy, but
> 
> since the phase waves are infinite and monotonous, no message can be 
> attached to the beam and sent FTL.
> 
> According to the book, only the group velocity can be used to transmit a 
> message, and this travels at or below C.
> 
> Is this right, or am I wrong?
> 
> Kyle R. Mcallister
> 
> 
> > >	You can ....
> > >
> > >	 Get he ARRL [American Radio Realy League].. or "ham" Radio
> > >Amateur's Hand book... and theer antenna handbook....
> > >
> > >
> > >	FIND a ham operator that likes helical antennas!
> >
> > I'll look for this, and the ham operator. There is one nearby, but I 
> don't
> > know if he's worked with helical antenna's or not.
> >
> > Kyle R. Mcallister
> >
> >
> > 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  3 08:42:14 1998
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From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
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Dear vo-

I'm unsubscribing during the time my system will be down for upgrading.

Rick M and Keith if you post anything new on the subject Light pulse FTL 
etc please cc me a copy to jimostr victor1.mscomm.com

Jim O.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  3 09:14:22 1998
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From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Permanent Magnet Propulsion
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Any pictures of magnet/coil arrangements?  Anyone have a good guess of
what arrangement might work?

Could a motor be made of this...or is it linear only?  




---Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> Source: The Modesto Bee
> Date: July 28  1998
> Header:Magnets put scientist on right track
> Byline:  J.N. Sbranti
> 
>    When the physicist handed him that box of 100 magnets with a
> sketch of how to arrange them, Bill Kent figured it wouldn't fly --
> literally.
> 
>    But it was Kent's job to prove the scientists right or wrong, so
> the Ceres resident built a magnetic levitation train from scratch.
> 
>    "I remember the first day I launched it, and it flew. I was
> amazed," said Kent. "All of a sudden I could share the vision the
> bosses had."
> 
>    That vision materialized a few months ago in a dingy sub-basement
> at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, where Kent crafted a
> magnet-powered train prototype atop a 60-foot track.
> 
>    "Some day we could have maglev trains crisscrossing the state.
> They'll be safe and cheap," said Kent, whose enthusiasm grows every
> time he sees the prototype soar. "Defying gravity and flying without
> some additional energy input is pretty incredible."
> 
>    The repulsive properties of magnets have been known for centuries.
> What's new is being able to harness that power safely and
> efficiently. The "Inductrack" train assembled by Kent is the first
> levitated model to use passive permanent magnets.
> 
>    Powerful rare-earth magnets arrayed in a special pattern under the
> train create a magnetic field as they pass over the inductive coils
> wrapped around the track.
> 
>    That field causes the track to repel the magnets, levitating the
> train. The energized coils make the track function like a linear
> motor, providing both acceleration and braking.
> 
>    "It's an innovative application of a simple principal," said Kent.
> "That's what most inventions usually are."
> 
>    At age 44, Kent finds himself in the thick of cutting-edge
> inventions. In his two decades "knocking around" the Livermore Lab,
> Kent said he's dabbled with magnetic fusion, electron beams, lasers,
> vacuums and now flying trains.
> 
>    A career as a mechanical technologist is not what Kent planned on
> when he earned his junior college electrical degree.
> 
>    "I sort of thought I was going to be an electrician for life,"
> Kent said. But a downturn in the building trades 20 years ago forced
> him to accept a temporary job at the lab.
> 
>    "Once I got here, I caught the lab bug, and I've never wanted to
> leave," he said. "The assignments here vary so much I love it.
> Anything's possible. ... And the lab has great education
> opportunities for taking course work in the sciences."
> 
>    His natural curiosity and passion for tinkering proved a perfect
> match for life at the lab.
> 
>    "Bill Kent is our right-hand guy in making our high-tech stuff
> come together," said mechanical engineer Ray Smith, who works with
> physicist Richard Post on the Inductrack project. "Bill's the one who
> went out and built all the hardware and got all the rails just
> right."
> 
>    There were no blueprints to follow in building the maglev train.
> 
>    "This is not a very formal engineering project," Smith explains.
> "It's one where you evolve the engineering as you go."
> 
>    So Kent winged it.
> 
>    "We had to be a little creative because we had a low budget," said
> Kent, who's known for darting about his underground workshop in a
> light-blue lab coat.
> 
>    He did most of the electrical, mechanical and carpentry work on
> the train and track with his own hands, and he scrounged around for
> bargain parts.
> 
>    In his earliest model, Kent gave the 50-pound train a jump start
> by connecting it to a 300-pound bucket of bricks dropped from a
> pulley hung from the ceiling.
> 
>    These days, a tug from a modified bungee cord gets the train
> moving. Once it's on its way, the magnets take over.
> 
>    Since research on the project began three years ago, the lab has
> spent about $450,000 to develop Inductrack.
> 
>    There's more to come. NASA has awarded the lab a $1.5 million
> grant to build a larger, faster prototype for potential use in
> launching satellites. The maglev tracks would run up a ramp,
> accelerating a rocket to near Mach 1 before its main engines fire.
> 
>    "We've kidded that this will make a great amusement park ride,"
> said Kent, who will help build the NASA model.
> 
>    He's excited by the prospect of Inductrack becoming reality. Many
> of his previous Livermore Lab projects haven't.
> 
>    "Working in research and development, it's not unusual to be
> disappointed because not everything works," Kent said. "But this time
> we proved the theory worked great."
> 
> -- end --
> 
> 

==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  3 10:50:15 1998
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Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:35:05 -0400
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From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: New version of gravitational converter article uploaded.
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 Stefan,
>
>P.S.: I would like to hear some comments from the "cracks" of these
>list. Are you all on vacations ??
>What do you think about this new device ? Is it just so genuine, so that
>you can not say anything ?

As "cracks" I assume that you are referring to crackpots or cranks here.  I
think that most of them want more information before they will comment.
The claim that it is self running is very important and no one wants to
claim that it is impossible for it to run itself if it actually does.  On
the other hand, all self running claims eventually turn out to be false or
involve some form of nuclear energy and no one wants to endorse the device
without more evidence that it actually works.  The theory that is presented
to explain its function appears to be of null validity and there is no
reason, based on theory, to believe that the device works.  The large
cylinder float is a problem as it could be concealing an energy source.
Either the cylinder must be inspected to ensure that it contains no energy
source or the device must generate an amount of energy that exceeds the
total possible amount of energy that could be stored within it.

Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  3 10:51:03 1998
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From: Ben Tammetta <tammetta mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Permanent Magnet Propulsion
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Hello,

At 08:48 AM 8/3/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Any pictures of magnet/coil arrangements?  Anyone have a good guess of
>what arrangement might work?

I have a EE degree.. but i'm far from doing anything but tinkering... but..
about  2 years ago I experimented with some magents in a way that
demostrated the similar effects... as described with this track and  train
.....my setups were very crude.. but proved to me that there could be
something to all this...

Mine was linear... the more stator segments I added the faster the moving
part (a rod composed of circluar magents that rolled) was ejected at the
end...
My thoughts were.. that this would make a great track or train .... i
didn't have the time or resources to go any further..with this tho... I'm
interested also to see if they use similar arragments to what I had... I
could conceive now.. how an arrangement of coils/inductors could probably
be used to induce some of the fields.  

>Could a motor be made of this...or is it linear only?  
I thot it could be possible too.. but I knew I had  to be missing something
because it seemed to simple.....  I had several schetchs of possible
designs.. Also  the precision and machining..required was far more than...
what I was capable of doing.. :)  My crude one didn't work.  :)  hehehe

The linear arrangment was something like this.... It also needed steel on the
end of each stator segment to contour a more useful magnetic field..

Looking down on the table top....
N=north pole of mag
S=south
I=about where the steel  was needed.... and also patially on the outside of
the
     stator segments.

   INSNSNSNSI       INSNSNSNSI       INSNSNSNSI    etc...

    N 
    S      <-rod/train would  excellerate or roll   this way --------->
    N
    S

   ISNSNSNSNI       ISNSNSNSNI       ISNSNSNSNI       etc...

....
very primative .. but you can get the idea from this i think..
the rod is initially repulsed.. and attracted.... .. but it has to over
come the
pull back from the end of the first stator.. with momentum.. and the help of
the steel dampening the pull back attraction..... to make it to the second
segment.
I thot as long as you can get it to make this jump.. and continue
excelerating... you could use similar arragements to propel things and
possbly make a motor..
Well.. the rolling acceleration part worked fine for me...

Others here on the list may be able to expand on  what is happening here
and if there's really anything to it... ... but that's my take on this... :)

Ben



>---Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>> Source: The Modesto Bee
>> Date: July 28  1998
>> Header:Magnets put scientist on right track
>> Byline:  J.N. Sbranti
>> 
>>    When the physicist handed him that box of 100 magnets with a
>> sketch of how to arrange them, Bill Kent figured it wouldn't fly --
>> literally.
>> 
>>    But it was Kent's job to prove the scientists right or wrong, so
>> the Ceres resident built a magnetic levitation train from scratch.
>> 
>>    "I remember the first day I launched it, and it flew. I was
>> amazed," said Kent. "All of a sudden I could share the vision the
>> bosses had."
>> 
>>    That vision materialized a few months ago in a dingy sub-basement
>> at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, where Kent crafted a
>> magnet-powered train prototype atop a 60-foot track.
>> 
>>    "Some day we could have maglev trains crisscrossing the state.
>> They'll be safe and cheap," said Kent, whose enthusiasm grows every
>> time he sees the prototype soar. "Defying gravity and flying without
>> some additional energy input is pretty incredible."
>> 
>>    The repulsive properties of magnets have been known for centuries.
>> What's new is being able to harness that power safely and
>> efficiently. The "Inductrack" train assembled by Kent is the first
>> levitated model to use passive permanent magnets.
>> 
>>    Powerful rare-earth magnets arrayed in a special pattern under the
>> train create a magnetic field as they pass over the inductive coils
>> wrapped around the track.
>> 
>>    That field causes the track to repel the magnets, levitating the
>> train. The energized coils make the track function like a linear
>> motor, providing both acceleration and braking.
>> 
>>    "It's an innovative application of a simple principal," said Kent.
>> "That's what most inventions usually are."
>> 
>>    At age 44, Kent finds himself in the thick of cutting-edge
>> inventions. In his two decades "knocking around" the Livermore Lab,
>> Kent said he's dabbled with magnetic fusion, electron beams, lasers,
>> vacuums and now flying trains.
>> 
>>    A career as a mechanical technologist is not what Kent planned on
>> when he earned his junior college electrical degree.
>> 
>>    "I sort of thought I was going to be an electrician for life,"
>> Kent said. But a downturn in the building trades 20 years ago forced
>> him to accept a temporary job at the lab.
>> 
>>    "Once I got here, I caught the lab bug, and I've never wanted to
>> leave," he said. "The assignments here vary so much I love it.
>> Anything's possible. ... And the lab has great education
>> opportunities for taking course work in the sciences."
>> 
>>    His natural curiosity and passion for tinkering proved a perfect
>> match for life at the lab.
>> 
>>    "Bill Kent is our right-hand guy in making our high-tech stuff
>> come together," said mechanical engineer Ray Smith, who works with
>> physicist Richard Post on the Inductrack project. "Bill's the one who
>> went out and built all the hardware and got all the rails just
>> right."
>> 
>>    There were no blueprints to follow in building the maglev train.
>> 
>>    "This is not a very formal engineering project," Smith explains.
>> "It's one where you evolve the engineering as you go."
>> 
>>    So Kent winged it.
>> 
>>    "We had to be a little creative because we had a low budget," said
>> Kent, who's known for darting about his underground workshop in a
>> light-blue lab coat.
>> 
>>    He did most of the electrical, mechanical and carpentry work on
>> the train and track with his own hands, and he scrounged around for
>> bargain parts.
>> 
>>    In his earliest model, Kent gave the 50-pound train a jump start
>> by connecting it to a 300-pound bucket of bricks dropped from a
>> pulley hung from the ceiling.
>> 
>>    These days, a tug from a modified bungee cord gets the train
>> moving. Once it's on its way, the magnets take over.
>> 
>>    Since research on the project began three years ago, the lab has
>> spent about $450,000 to develop Inductrack.
>> 
>>    There's more to come. NASA has awarded the lab a $1.5 million
>> grant to build a larger, faster prototype for potential use in
>> launching satellites. The maglev tracks would run up a ramp,
>> accelerating a rocket to near Mach 1 before its main engines fire.
>> 
>>    "We've kidded that this will make a great amusement park ride,"
>> said Kent, who will help build the NASA model.
>> 
>>    He's excited by the prospect of Inductrack becoming reality. Many
>> of his previous Livermore Lab projects haven't.
>> 
>>    "Working in research and development, it's not unusual to be
>> disappointed because not everything works," Kent said. "But this time
>> we proved the theory worked great."
>> 
>> -- end --
>> 
>> 
>
>==
>Anton Rager
>a_rager yahoo.com
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>

Ben Tammetta

***********************************************************************
A d v a n c e d     I n t e r n e t     S o l u t i o n s
Internet Marketing and Electronic Commerce Technologies
4060 Peachtree Rd., NE, Ste. 227, Atlanta GA 30319
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*************************************************************************

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  3 13:10:09 1998
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: FTL Communication
Cc: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
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Hank -

 > since the phase waves are infinite and monotonous,
 > no message can be attached to the beam and sent FTL.

I don't understand that. If a change in phase is indeed propagated >c, I
don't understand why you couldn't 'tap' out phase changes in morse code at
the source, and see those phase changes at the receiver (more specifically
the time delays between them) as carrying intelligent signal. That sentence
above seems to be saying to me that phase changes can't be detected, or
they can't be separated discretely in time or something.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

CC: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>


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From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Light Pulse experiment re-post
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Kyle -

   >  I don't think there can be waves, or anything
   >  for that matter, that travel backwards in time.

If I understand this right, it is just this wave, the 'retarded' wave, that
is the foundation the conventional ideas of energy transfer over distance.
It's the 'advanced' wave that gives people problems with causality and so
forth.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  3 13:28:44 1998
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Subject: RE: FTL Communication
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Rick
	The simplest answer I can give is that "phase velocity" is a myth.
Phase changes to a real wave also involve amplitude changes, which can't
propagate faster then "c". To get more detail, look in a fundamental EM
theory text. I don't have one here at work right now.

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Rick Monteverde[SMTP:monteverde worldnet.att.net]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Monday, August 03, 1998 12:53 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Cc: 	Jim Ostrowski
> Subject: 	RE: FTL Communication
> 
> Hank -
> 
>  > since the phase waves are infinite and monotonous,
>  > no message can be attached to the beam and sent FTL.
> 
> I don't understand that. If a change in phase is indeed propagated >c, I
> don't understand why you couldn't 'tap' out phase changes in morse code at
> the source, and see those phase changes at the receiver (more specifically
> the time delays between them) as carrying intelligent signal. That
> sentence
> above seems to be saying to me that phase changes can't be detected, or
> they can't be separated discretely in time or something.
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
> 
> CC: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  3 13:57:02 1998
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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, PsyPhyList <psyphy@listp.apa.org>,
        ChaoPsych <chaopsyc list.uvm.edu>
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 09:47:10 -0700
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Subject: Magnetized Muhammad (fwd)
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*** Forwarded message, originally written by terstec1 webtv.net on 03-Aug-98
***
>From Seattle Times 8-2-98:

     Muhammad Ali:  The former heavyweight champion reportedly is trying
an experimental treatment for the Parinkson's disease that slowed his
reflexes and made it difficult for him to talk.

     Jerry Jacobs, a retired dentist and oral surgeon in Boca Raton,
Fla. claims his resonance machine, which emits a weak magnetic field,
could cure Ali.

     Ali has received 5 treatments, which consist of sitting on a beach
chair between two 8ft high magnetic circles, according to The Palm Beach
Post.

     "Ive been to 15 different doctors" Ali said. "None of them have
been able to do anything".

     Jacob's device was not familiar to Robert Brodner, a West palm
Beach neurosurgeon who has performed brain surgergy on about 60 people
with Parkinson's.

     "I don't know what this fellow is talking about. I only hope that
he does," Brodner said.  "Any treatment that doesn't have the potential
to harm a patient can be considered."     


*** Info and archives at http://www.aquathought.com/mind-l
*** To leave the list, send "unsubscribe" to mind-l-request aquathought.com

Kewl!
-- 
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    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
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 http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  3 15:25:48 1998
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Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 18:27:22 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: RE: Light Pulse experiment re-post
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At 05:19 PM 8/2/98 -0500, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
>This is what I think happens: there is a superluminal component to the 
>light wave that cannot be blocked, or the information carrying part of the 
>wave will not be able to pass. No causality violation, no 'time reversed' 
>waves. Just superluminal motion, which makes a lot more sense that 
>reversing the arrow of time. I personally think that if and when 
>superluminal signalling is accomplished, special relativity will be toast.

    Do you want butter or jam on that?  Seriously, the Nimtz experiment
seems very well grounded in quantum mechanics, and produced pretty hard to
refute results.  What you do is send a microwave signal through a waveguide
that has a narrow section in the middle:

        ________________               ___________________________
                        |_____________|

                         _____________
        ________________|             |___________________________

       Choose the microwave frequency such that the narrow region is
"forbidden" in quantum mechanical terms.  What happens is that most of the
signal is reflected, and a small portion inversely proportional to the
exponential of the distance through the narrow section is not reflected,
but appears on the other side of the gap.  Where was it in between?  Who
knows, but 1) the signal cannot be detected in the narrow section, and 2)
the time between the single reaching the beginning of the narrow section
and appearing at the other end is a function of the frequency, not of the
length of the gap.

       Nitmz chose system perameters such that the distance (10 to 20
centimeters) divided by the constant time delay (83 picoseconds) was from
two to six times the speed of light in a vacuum.  He then modulated the
microwave signal (with music and voice) and correlated the observed delay
with the one predicted by theory.  They matched.

       Does this constitute FTP communcation, or does the signal actually
stay slower than light in some fifth dimension?  You can split those hairs
all day.  But at the end of the day, you can make a pretty good case for
FTL communication, even if it is not practical over long distances.  (But
it might be very useful in computers.)

       Of course FTL for less than a foot is not very exciting.  What you
have to do is build longer runs by amplifying the signal between forbiden
gaps: AFAFAFAFAFA....

       Now for the hard part.  First that wave guide does not have to be
physical, or more to the point, you can play games to make narrow sections
wave guides that move w.r.t. the laboratory.  If special relativity is true
you can use two such waveguides moving in opposite directions (or even
rotating in opposite directions) to create a system which sends messages
back in time.  (Actually you only need one moving waveguide to create a
causality violation, but by using two waveguides you can send messages an
arbitrary distance back in time--but not before the system was built.)

      Lots of work, but if relativity holds, it is all just engineering.
(And you can send back next year's Wall Street Journal or tomorrow's Racing
Form to pay for it.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  3 15:34:46 1998
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: is PVC safe for drinking water (OFF TOPIC)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980802163305.006cbcac postoffice.ptd.net>
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 <35BCF6BD.EC9D222F css.mot.com>
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At 04:33 PM 8/2/98 -0400, jeff fink wrote:
>The way you guys are talking about PVC it looks like I shot 
>myself in the foot.

   Nope.  Not familar with the product, but it sounds like they did it
right.  The core will deteriorate if exposed to UV, but the surface of the
sandwhich probably includes a UV resistant coating.  (One "trick" is to
coat the inside of the mold with a thin spray coating of a UV-resistant
polymer, then fill with PVC or polyurethane for strength.  Do this before
the outside coating is completely cured and they bond together.  This is
the difference between cheap plastic kitchenware and (a few pennys more to
manufacture) good stuff like Tupperware.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Magnetized Muhammad (fwd)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 22:44:30 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Mon, 03 Aug 1998 09:47:10 -0700, Chuck Davis wrote:
[snip]
>     Jacob's device was not familiar to Robert Brodner, a West palm
>Beach neurosurgeon who has performed brain surgergy on about 60 people
>with Parkinson's.
>
>     "I don't know what this fellow is talking about. I only hope that
>he does," Brodner said.  "Any treatment that doesn't have the potential
>to harm a patient can be considered."     
[snip]
If Parkinson's is really caused by a microbe, and these magnetic
fields succeed in clumping them together, making them less harmful,
then it may indeed help.
I would be interested in the outcome.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Light Pulse experiment re-post
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 22:58:19 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Mon, 03 Aug 1998 18:27:22 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote:
[snip]
>refute results.  What you do is send a microwave signal through a waveguide
>that has a narrow section in the middle:
>
>        ________________               ___________________________
>                        |_____________|
>
>                         _____________
>        ________________|             |___________________________
>
>       Choose the microwave frequency such that the narrow region is
>"forbidden" in quantum mechanical terms.  What happens is that most of the

Does this mean that resonance is possible at the start and the end,
but not in the middle section? 
[snip]
>       Nitmz chose system perameters such that the distance (10 to 20
>centimeters) divided by the constant time delay (83 picoseconds) was from
>two to six times the speed of light in a vacuum.  He then modulated the
>microwave signal (with music and voice) and correlated the observed delay

How does one "observe" the delay? I.e. how does one determine the
exact moment at which the signal entered the system, and the exact
moment that it came out? (Or is the system not really a straight line
as drawn, but wrapped around in a "circle")?
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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-----Original Message-----
From: Robert I. Eachus <eachus mitre.org>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Monday, August 03, 1998 4:24 PM
Subject: RE: Light Pulse experiment re-post

Robert I. Eachus wrote:


>
>Seriously, the Nimtz experiment
>seems very well grounded in quantum mechanics, and produced pretty hard to
>refute results.  What you do is send a microwave signal through a waveguide
>that has a narrow section in the middle:
>
>        ________________               ___________________________
>                        |_____________|
>
>                         _____________
>        ________________|             |___________________________
>
Along similar lines,I think you can create a FTL Vortex in a circular
waveguide with the right mode by rarefying the vacuum at the center of the
guide.

This will increase c by decreasing the "intrinsic Capacitance" (eo)of the
vacuum:

c = 1/(uo*eo)^1/2

This could be checked with a LASER Optics Detector at the axis of the
Vortex. FTL and
time reversal go hand-in-hand.

One might use such an approach for creating your own "Wormhole" in space
with a  craft for FTL travel and Time Travel (Time Reversal).

Lets See, And E.T. 50 light years away sees
the Atomic flash at Trinity Site in 1997 by our clock. They decide to take a
look, fly FTL-Time Reversal and arrive on Earth in the spring of 1947. Then
their RADAR doesn't see the Stealthed Payload dangling from a Mogul Spy
Balloon and the Crash into it near
Roswell, NM in July 1947.    :-)
>
>       Nitmz chose system perameters such that the distance (10 to 20
>centimeters) divided by the constant time delay (83 picoseconds) was from
>two to six times the speed of light in a vacuum.

Six or 60*c, should be no problem. The limit is
most likely 137*c.   :-)

Regards,    Frederick


>                                        Robert I. Eachus
>
>with Standard_Disclaimer;
>use  Standard_Disclaimer;
>function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
>
>
>

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>Header:Magnets put scientist on right track

This thing is a linear adaptation of the macroscopic diamagnetism effect
patented recently for rotating machines by Magnetic Bearing Technologies
(where I used to work).  These patents,

5,471,105 Null flux magnetic bearing with cross-connected loop portions 

5,469,006 Lorentz force magnetic bearing utilizing closed conductive loops and
   selectively controlled electromagnets 

describe the technology in some detail.  Essentially the bearing action is
obtained by moving conductor loops (shorted coils) rapidly past bipolar
magnetic fields such that, if the moving loop is a little off the
prescribed path, a current is induced to flow in the loop which in turn
creates a force that pushes the loop back towards the prescribed path.
When the loop is right on the prescribe path, no current flows in it.  It
really is macroscopic diamagnetism.

We succeeded in making a couple of working rotary prototypes of this
bearing before realizing that it had very limited commercial applications.  

The news release sounded wonderful but I wouldn't be surprised if there
were huge engineering problems yet to be solved before this technology
could be trusted with human lives, etc.

Useless trivia:  Physicist Richard Post, mentioned in the article, is
Markie Post's dad (she was on TV's Night Court)


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  3 20:44:35 1998
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Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 23:42:48 -0700
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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From:

http://www.wired.com/wired/6.03/antigravity.html
F E A T U R E  |  Issue 6.03 - March 1998

Attached and zipped.

Terry

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  3 21:20:29 1998
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  4 02:41:57 1998
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Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:31:38 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: IE#20, boiled light.
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Ed,

> What minimum energy...
Don't know as it is one of things one remembers that is more than 
anecdotal. Try it.

> Many projects...
Yep and the balance between time and money.

Will have a go, get more info on Marinov/Koostra device time and money 
permitting. Personally, I'm going to experiment in next few months with a 
nice ferromagnetic material and develop along lines of my research and 
Potter/Aspden devices. Will liase with London network to do Anode effect 
type device.

Will sort this frigging email /remote logging on problem/slowness of 
response. Bare with me Ed and Vo.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  4 05:47:58 1998
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Bessel's Differential Equation and FTL Time Reversal
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 06:33:45 -0600
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The Roots of Bessel's Differential Equation:

z^2d^2y/dz^2 + zdy/dz + (z^2 - v^2)y = 0

if negative, suggest that there is Time Reversal in a Circular Waveguide.

That is to say, that if  the Roots of Jn = 0
are negative time reverses, Right Robert?  :-)

            Positive Roots of Jn = 0

m   n=0    n=1     n=2       n=3       n=4

1   2.4    3.83    5.14      6.38      7.59

2   5.52   7.02    8.42      9.76      11.06

3   8.65   10.17   11.62     13.02     14.37

4   11.79  13.32   14.80     16.22     17.62

For instance, in a TM(n,m)Transverse Magnetic mode TM(1,2) the root for Jn =
0 for n = 1, m = 2 is 7.02 where n is the number of cycles of the variation
of Ex around the cylinder (or 2(pi) radians) and m indicates the number of
zeros of the E field on the radial path from the axis to the inside surface
of the outer waveguide wall.

This is what determines the formation of a vacuum or aether Vortex which
SHOULD give a
Radial Gradient of Lightspeed in the Vortex where c = 1/(uo*eo/k)^1/2 where
k is the "thinning" of the Aether at the center of the Vortex.

At frequencies with kilometer wavelengths (~0.3 Megahertz you can generate a
"wormhole" in space ahead of the "Vortex Tube" that will allow VERY LARGE
spacecraft to travel at FTL
and Time Reversal.

I Think this is called "WARP" such and such.

Don't you See?   :-)

Regards,    Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  4 06:16:43 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Bessel's Differential Equation and FTL Time Reversal
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 13:13:09 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Tue, 4 Aug 1998 06:33:45 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>At frequencies with kilometer wavelengths (~0.3 Megahertz you can generate a
>"wormhole" in space ahead of the "Vortex Tube" that will allow VERY LARGE
>spacecraft to travel at FTL
>and Time Reversal.
>
>I Think this is called "WARP" such and such.
>
>Don't you See?   :-)
>
>Regards,    Frederick
>
>
If they go THAT fast, then they're going to have to let someone go in
front with a red flag to warn people that they're coming ;).

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  4 06:45:15 1998
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Subject: Re: Bessel's Differential Equation and FTL Time Reversal
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-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 04, 1998 7:15 AM
Subject: Re: Bessel's Differential Equation and FTL Time Reversal

History Repeats itself, Don't It? :-)

Go To Bed Robin.  :-)

Frederick


>On Tue, 4 Aug 1998 06:33:45 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>[snip]
>>At frequencies with kilometer wavelengths (~0.3 Megahertz you can generate
a
>>"wormhole" in space ahead of the "Vortex Tube" that will allow VERY LARGE
>>spacecraft to travel at FTL
>>and Time Reversal.
>>
>>I Think this is called "WARP" such and such.
>>
>>Don't you See?   :-)
>>
>>Regards,    Frederick
>>
>>
>If they go THAT fast, then they're going to have to let someone go in
>front with a red flag to warn people that they're coming ;).
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  4 09:04:42 1998
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From: "Rob King" <kingrs hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: SMOT, Minato Motor, Patents
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Hi Vorts,

Any more news on Gregs SMOTS?  

Will anyone be independantly testing the Minato Motor?
How do I view the patent drawings for a patent, which site?

I would guess that the Minato Motor might be a little bit like the 
Newman machine, ie. very big spool of wire with a small powerful magnet 
rotating inside the core.

This wouldn't be a very difficult experiment to setup and test if that 
were the case.

Would I be correct to say that a magnet rotating in a copper coil with 
no ferrous parts will feel very little resistance from the coil when 
coil is shorted out or is it something to do with time taken for the 
electrons to travel down a great length of wire? 

:)


Rob King


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  4 09:20:01 1998
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Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:10:17 -0400
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From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: IE#20, boiled light.
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  The large ou factors claimed for the boiled light experiment would be
impressive if there were some checking done for the presence of water
droplets in the steam output.  However, as is always the case, there has
been no such checking.  The heat output is calculated by taking the rate of
water disappearance and multiplying times the heat of vaporization.  Of
course, if some of the water comes off in droplets, this calculation is in
error.  In the P&F boil off experiment they evaluated the lithium content
before and after the boil off and concluded that no significant quantities
of lithium were lost.  From this fact they concluded that no significant
quantities of droplets were released.  However, the correct conclusion is
that no significant quantities of electrolyte droplets were released.
  The presence of pure water droplets was not excluded.  Since there will
likely be some small quantity of ions released in the steam, there will be
adequate condensation nuclei and the water vapor could condense into
droplets before it is ejected from the cell.  If this is the case, then the
heat of fusion of the water in the droplets will stay in the cell.  Now
testing for the presence of water droplets is simple and it should be done.
Just take a tube about 1 or 2 meters long, vent the steam into the tube,
and shoot a laser beam along the axis of the tube.  One end of the tube
could be sealed and the steam vented into the sealed end or the steam could
be vented into the middle of the tube and then come out each end.
  This simple experiment can give the droplet distribution from which the
amount of water coming off in droplets may be obtained.  For the large ou
factors claimed of 2 or 3 then most of the water must be coming off in
droplets.  If this is the case then the mean free path of the laser light
will be on the order of 1 meter or less and most of the light will be
scattered.  The answer will be immediately obvious.  If the water is coming
off only in vapor form there will be no scattering of the laser light and
if it is coming off mostly in water droplets the light will be almost
totally scattered.
  We all have experience with significant concentrations of water droplets
like clouds, fog or steam venting off a steam pipe.  There is no mistaking
it.  You can see it and it would significantly scatter the laser light.
There is no excuse for not doing this experiment.

Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  4 09:17:38 1998
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In a message dated 8/4/98 10:04:16 AM, you wrote:

<<Would I be correct to say that a magnet rotating in a copper coil with 
no ferrous parts will feel very little resistance from the coil when 
coil is shorted out or is it something to do with time taken for the 
electrons to travel down a great length of wire? >>

There would be resistance from the coil, since the shorted coil would carry a
current whose magnetic field would oppose the magnet's rotation.

Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  4 09:39:45 1998
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Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 19:25:55 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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...
Gregory Benford, a professor of physics at UC Irvine who also writes
science fiction, echoes this and takes it a step further. 
  "There's nothing impossible about gravity shielding," he says. "It just requires a field theory that we don't have yet. Anyone who says it's inconceivable is suffering from a lack of imagination."
...
 
This is exactly the science should be. Very well said.

Actually, I am encountering many radical gravitational theories, opening new possibilities. I think we just need to combine such a theory to the experiment. Unfortunately this takes times, due mostly by communication problems caused the huge volume of phy

sic research and papers, many years to see which is front of eyes.

I believe science had gained significance freedom now, works are being not discriminated whether they are belong to mainstream science or not.


Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  4 12:51:10 1998
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Subject: Mikes UFO and Superluminal Physics Pages (http://www.socorro.demon.co.uk/index.
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Superluminal Research, Nimtz Document Etc.

http://www.socorro.demon.co.uk/index.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  4 14:02:06 1998
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: H2 Glow discharge with a K electrode
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:57:50 -0400
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Vince's latest fill pressure variation series with no K and
.5" gap has been added to the 2 graphs of previous runs with K.
The latest graphs may be viewed at:
 http://www.varisys.com/vortex.htm 
Can you view these Vince or do I need to send you the .xls file?
-
The highest pressure reached in the no K runs is lower
than the 1 atm. of the .5" gap with K runs, but
the deg. C per watt readings appear to be falling off as
the pressure is raised in the no K runs and would
be expected to do so in the with K runs as well. 
The reason for the falloff may be that more heat is
generated closer to the cathode with higher pressure
and is therefore more distant from the thermocouple
which is centered on the gap.
The case for OU performance is getting stronger
as additional data continues to show much higher deg. C per watt
readings when K is present.
-
Regards,
George Holz  - george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  4 14:13:46 1998
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Light Pulse experiment re-post
In-Reply-To: <35c93f15.36863078 mail-hub>
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 <3.0.1.32.19980803182722.00cd7c30 spectre.mitre.org>
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At 10:58 PM 8/3/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>How does one "observe" the delay? I.e. how does one determine the
>exact moment at which the signal entered the system, and the exact
>moment that it came out?

    You measure it.  You can measure the phase delay pretty accurately, but
that is subject to fencepost (off by one cycle) errors.  So Nimtz modulated
the microwave signal and correlated the input and output to show that there
was no such error and also to show a superluminal transmission of information.

    There are people who argue that the methods that Nimtz used for doing
the measurements are subject to error introduced by phase shifts, but these
are the "extrordinary claims require extrordinary proof" people we are all
familiar with.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  4 15:03:33 1998
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Subject: RE: Light Pulse experiment re-post
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Robert
	One can determine time-delay quite accurately using a continuous
high frequency pseudo-random modulation, and correlating the output with a
second pseudo-random generator. The sampling time is the bit rate of the
modulation, and the cycle length of the modulation is chosen to be more then
the total possible time delay to avoid fencepost errors.

hank

> ----------
> From: 	Robert I. Eachus[SMTP:eachus mitre.org]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Tuesday, August 04, 1998 2:15 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: Light Pulse experiment re-post
> 
> At 10:58 PM 8/3/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> >How does one "observe" the delay? I.e. how does one determine the
> >exact moment at which the signal entered the system, and the exact
> >moment that it came out?
> 
>     You measure it.  You can measure the phase delay pretty accurately,
> but
> that is subject to fencepost (off by one cycle) errors.  So Nimtz
> modulated
> the microwave signal and correlated the input and output to show that
> there
> was no such error and also to show a superluminal transmission of
> information.
> 
>     There are people who argue that the methods that Nimtz used for doing
> the measurements are subject to error introduced by phase shifts, but
> these
> are the "extrordinary claims require extrordinary proof" people we are all
> familiar with.
> 
>                                         Robert I. Eachus
> 
> with Standard_Disclaimer;
> use  Standard_Disclaimer;
> function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  4 15:17:07 1998
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Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:04:52 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: IE#20, boiled light.
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To: Vortex

Regarding the P&F boil off experiments, Larry Wharton writes:

     The presence of pure water droplets was not excluded.  Since there will
     likely be some small quantity of ions released in the steam, there will
     be adequate condensation nuclei and the water vapor could condense into
     droplets before it is ejected from the cell.

This possibility can be excluded. Pons and Fleischmann ran blank boil off
cells with light water and platinum, and they showed no excess heat. Input
balanced output as closely as they could measure (and they measured
extraordinarily close). I cannot imagine a hypothesis in which the
condensation nuclei only exist in the presence of a Pd cathode and heavy
water. Furthermore, they did another series of boil off experiments with a
condenser in the cell, measuring the heat only by the temperature rise. The
point is well taken though. You do have to rigorously exclude this
possibility. Pons and Fleischmann said this in their papers and lectures years
ago.


     Now testing for the presence of water droplets is simple and it should
     be done.

I think it is better to use another method of calorimetry in which droplets
cannot be a factor. That is what Pons and Fleischmann did in their later
experiments. I would use a condenser inside a Seebeck calorimeter.


     Just take a tube about 1 or 2 meters long, vent the steam into the tube,
     and shoot a laser beam along the axis of the tube.  One end of the tube
     could be sealed and the steam vented into the sealed end or the steam
     could be vented into the middle of the tube and then come out each end.
     . . .   This simple experiment can give the droplet distribution from
     which the amount of water coming off in droplets may be obtained.

That's interesting, but unnecessarily high tech. The easiest method is to
sparge the stream of vapor and droplets in cold water. HOWEVER in the
experiment that promoted this message, the Ohmori - Mizuno replication, you
will probably underestimate the output because we suspect anomalously large
amounts of free O2 and H2 gas are leaving the cell, more than the electrolysis
creates. The high cathode temperature probably fractures the water, since it
melts tungsten.

I wonder if this laser method or something like it could detect free O2 and H2
gas?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  4 15:44:19 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: IE#20, boiled light.
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 22:33:56 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35c88a46.121672236 mail-hub>
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On Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:04:52 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
[snip]
>I wonder if this laser method or something like it could detect free O2 and H2
>gas?
>
>- Jed
Wouldn't it be easier to introduce the output gas into a closed space
above water at atmospheric pressure, then expose it to a recombiner,
and see if the volume drops?

e.g. 

                          ___________
                          |   gas + |
                          |   rec.  | glass jar
                          |- - - - -|
                          |         |
                  |-------|         |-------|
                  |       | water   |       |
                  |_______S_________S_______|

S = support.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  4 17:32:38 1998
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Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 20:39:30 -0400
To: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
From: Keith Nagel <knagel cnct.com>
Subject: Re: Light Pulse experiment re-post
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
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At 09:46 AM 8/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
>  BTW  ,  does  anyone  know  how  to  set  up Microsoft's Internet
> Explorer for Windows 3.1 and  it's  "Internet  Mail"  function  to
> accomodate  file  attachments? How does one  upload  and  download
> files for attachment to messages using IE?

Yah, use another mail package (like eudora, pegasus, etc) and dump win3.1,
its legacy with a capital L. 

>     It  was apparent from this experiment that exposure of a photodiode to
>    a flash of monochromatic light traveling toward the  photodiode  during
>    the  time  of  travel  and  before  the  expected time of arrival could
>    produce a signal on the photodiode that was not  produced  if  exposure
>    was blocked until the expected time of arrival.

Perhaps it was apparent to Sansbury, but not to me. What exactly was
the signal he was referring to that was not seen when the diode was
blocked? If they were amplitude variations, what percentage change
was seen based on the fully blocked pulse being "100%". So there is
no confusion, when I say "blocked" I mean the condition where the 
pockles cell is closed until seven nanoseconds before the arrival
of the pulse (this is probably pushing it, risetimes are usually
rated from 10-90%, 11 nsec would be a better baseline). Perhaps the
change is massive enough to negate the possiblility that the tail
of the opening cell was responsible...but no data was given.
Also, is it the case that the pulse width of the light beam was
10 nsec? and the risetime of the chopping pockles cell was 7nsec?
Yet the gif shows square pulses. Does that mean that the pulse
from zero to zero was actually 24nsec? or that the actual pulses
were triangular and not square?


>     Also  in  this  experiment  when  the intensity of the laser flash was
>    quadrupled, the delay before  the  rise  time  of  the  signal  on  the
>    photodiode was halved etc.. 

Interesting. I am a bit concerned however, that...

>  Then the laser power was quadrupled and  the  delay  and  pulse  width
>    adjusted  as  before to produce the maximum photodiode response and non
>    noise area of the response curve.

...these adjustments might have produced the risetime variation. Why 
where they required to begin with? 

K

Sorry for the delay in responding, I've been a busy little beaver
these days. :^)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  4 19:48:57 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Light Pulse experiment re-post
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 02:44:06 GMT
Organization: Improving
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References: <3.0.1.32.19980803182722.00cd7c30 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980803182722.00cd7c30@spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980804171504.00c67af0@spectre.mitre.org>
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On Tue, 04 Aug 1998 17:15:04 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote:

>At 10:58 PM 8/3/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>>How does one "observe" the delay? I.e. how does one determine the
>>exact moment at which the signal entered the system, and the exact
>>moment that it came out?
>
>    You measure it.  You can measure the phase delay pretty accurately, but
>that is subject to fencepost (off by one cycle) errors.  So Nimtz modulated
>the microwave signal and correlated the input and output to show that there
>was no such error and also to show a superluminal transmission of information.

Doesn't phase correlation imply that the FTL signal is compared with a
signal that follows another path? And if so, then how do we know that
the "non FTL" signal didn't undergo normal delay associated with RF
transmission. IOW I am willing to believe that there was a difference
in the signals, but how do we know it wasn't due to one travelling
below c, and one travelling at c (or even both below c, but one faster
than the other)?
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  4 20:08:52 1998
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Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:47:36 -0400 (EDT)
   From:

Franco Bonacina
European Space Agency Headquarters, Paris, France
(Phone:  33-1-5369-7713)

RELEASE:  98-145

SOHO SPACECRAFT CONTACTED
----------------------------
       Contact has been re-established with the European Space
Agency (ESA)/NASA Solar and Heliospheric Observatory (SOHO)
spacecraft following six weeks of silence.

       Signals sent yesterday through the NASA Deep Space
Network (DSN) station at Canberra, Australia, were answered by
SOHO at 6:51 p.m. EDT in the form of bursts of signal lasting
from two to ten seconds.  These signals were recorded both by
the NASA DSN station and the ESA station at Perth, Australia.
Contact is being maintained through the NASA DSN stations at
Goldstone, CA; Canberra; and Madrid, Spain.

       Although the signals are intermittent and do not
contain any data information, they show that the spacecraft is
still capable of receiving and responding to ground commands.

       "This is an excellent sign," said Dr. Joe Gurman, NASA
SOHO Project Scientist at the Goddard Space Flight Center,
Greenbelt, MD.  "It means the spacecraft still has a heartbeat
and gives us added optimism that we may be able to restore
SOHO to scientific operation.  Our next step, already
underway, is to continue the careful process of attempting to
re-establish control of the spacecraft.  We will be
attempting, in the near future, to begin data transmissions in
order to get an assessment of SOHO's condition."

       More information, images and status reports from SOHO
can be found on the Internet at:

                http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/

                            - end -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  4 20:30:29 1998
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re; The Continuity Equation vs Special Relativity?
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:24:32 -0600
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Geez Robert, Your Diagram of Nmtz's waveguide
plumbing implies that the Continuity Equation:

A1*V1 = A2*V2 and since V1 = c,  V2 is proportionally greater than c.   :-)

If it is, then the dielectric constant of the Vacuum (eo) (Ie., The Aether
Capacitance) had to decrease so that V2 = 1/(u2*e2)^1/2 ?

This would apply to the photon traverse time in an absorber also?

Regards,    Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  4 21:03:17 1998
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From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
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Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:09:29 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Light Pulse experiment re-post
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I have some problems with Nimtz' experiments as reported by Eachus. (I am
not familiar with it myself.)

1. Eachus says that no wave was measured in the narrow evanescent waveguide
region. This is puzzling, because classical EM says there should be field
there, and standard microwave techniques ought to measure it. So, why
couldn't Nimtz measure fields there?

2. How can anyone measure an 83 ps difference in propagation delay on a
modulated/demodulated audio (music and voice) signal? The audio has a
representative wave period of maybe 0.83 ms (this is roughly two octaves
above middle C). Thus, the 83 ps delay is on the order of 1 part in 10^7 of
the audio period. Because music and voice are not strictly periodic,
resonance techniques do not work. Correlation techniques work, to a point,
but 10^7 resolution ??!!!  I worry that a bit of electronic distortion
might introduce much larger apparent effects than this. Remember,
modulators and demodulators are far-from-perfect nonlinear devices. For
that matter, so are correlators. Just a bit of drift in the inherent
distortion, and one might "see" an 83 ps change in delay.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  5 01:26:30 1998
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Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:16:17 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: IE#20, boiled light.
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Very good points from Larry another quality email.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  5 06:07:49 1998
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From: "Rob King" <kingrs hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: SMOT, Minato Motor, Patents
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Thanks Hal,

I can't help thinking I've seen you on this Channel 4 Equinox program or 
was it BBC2 Horizon, called "It Runs On Water".
I have it on video and have watched it loads of times when the Stan 
Meyer experiments were doing the rounds.  I wonder how his brother is 
getting on with his scam....sorry, I mean research.

What do you think...will this Minato Motor fly?

Rob King


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  5 07:34:31 1998
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Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 10:37:24 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: RE: Light Pulse experiment re-post
Cc: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
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At 02:30 PM 8/4/98 -0700, Scudder, Henry J wrote:
>	One can determine time-delay quite accurately using a continuous
>high frequency pseudo-random modulation, and correlating the output with a
>second pseudo-random generator. The sampling time is the bit rate of the
>modulation, and the cycle length of the modulation is chosen to be more then
>the total possible time delay to avoid fencepost errors.

   Isn't that what I just said?  Oh, Nimtz used amplitude modulation, and
in one run transmitted music, but if the correlation is done right, there
is no questioning the results.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  5 07:52:44 1998
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Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 10:56:54 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Re; The Continuity Equation vs Special Relativity?
Cc: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "George" <gsparb@juno.com>
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At 09:24 PM 8/4/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>Geez Robert, Your Diagram of Nmtz's waveguide
>plumbing implies that the Continuity Equation:
>
>A1*V1 = A2*V2 and since V1 = c,  V2 is proportionally greater than c...

   You have to not think that way.  The signal DOES NOT PROPAGATE through
the forbidden gap, it tunnels.  Where things that tunnel are during the
time between their disappearance and reappearance, no one knows.  If you
want to call it hypeerspace fine, but the Nimtz experiment is just one of
many that indicate that it is real and physical, just not here.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  5 07:56:52 1998
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Light Pulse experiment re-post
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In-Reply-To: <35c8c499.136607468 mail-hub>
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 <3.0.1.32.19980803182722.00cd7c30 spectre.mitre.org>
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At 02:44 AM 8/5/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>Doesn't phase correlation imply that the FTL signal is compared with a
>signal that follows another path?

   Yes.

>    And if so, then how do we know that
>the "non FTL" signal didn't undergo normal delay associated with RF
>transmission. IOW I am willing to believe that there was a difference
>in the signals, but how do we know it wasn't due to one travelling
>below c, and one travelling at c (or even both below c, but one faster
>than the other)?

   Let's say I hand you an envelope containing the Wall Street Journal
headlines and stock prices as of next Thursday.  You open the envelope read
the "predictions," then wait until next Thursday to see how they pan out.
If they do, you have good reason to believe I can predict the future, even
though, in theory, the information in the delayed channel could be based on
my predictions, rather than the other way around.

   The same holds for the Nimtz experiment.  They record the data, then do
the correlation.  It would be nice if they could take the next step and
send a signal through multiple FTL stages to get a couple of meters of FTL,
but that is not necessary to prove the technique works.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  5 08:14:12 1998
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Subject: Re: Light Pulse experiment re-post
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 <3.0.1.32.19980803182722.00cd7c30 spectre.mitre.org>
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At 06:09 PM 8/4/98 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote:
>1. Eachus says that no wave was measured in the narrow evanescent waveguide
>region. This is puzzling, because classical EM says there should be field
>there, and standard microwave techniques ought to measure it. So, why
>couldn't Nimtz measure fields there?

    Because classical EM is wrong.  We've always known that, and that at
small scale you have to use quantum theory.  In this case small scale is
measured in centimeters.

>2. How can anyone measure an 83 ps difference in propagation delay on a
>modulated/demodulated audio (music and voice) signal? The audio has a
>representative wave period of maybe 0.83 ms (this is roughly two octaves
>above middle C). Thus, the 83 ps delay is on the order of 1 part in 10^7 of
>the audio period. Because music and voice are not strictly periodic,
>resonance techniques do not work. Correlation techniques work, to a point,
>but 10^7 resolution ??!!!  I worry that a bit of electronic distortion
>might introduce much larger apparent effects than this. Remember,
>modulators and demodulators are far-from-perfect nonlinear devices. For
>that matter, so are correlators. Just a bit of drift in the inherent
>distortion, and one might "see" an 83 ps change in delay.
 
    The point to using voice and music to modulate the signal was to show
that information could be transmitted in the simplest possible way.
Correlation measurements at higher frequencies require following a much
more complex argument, since the transmission bandwidth was not that high.
Imagine that you transmit at a rate at which one bit in ten gets through.
You can do it, and by using a suitable error correction technique you can
use the channel to transmit databut it looks like smoke and mirrors.

    In any case, Nimtz measured the predicted 83 picosecond delay across
several different forbidden zones.  I'd have to look at the data again but
I think I remember the error in timing measurements being in the 1
picosecond range.  The maximum difference in transmittion times was on the
order of 500 picoseconds--hard to miss.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  5 08:40:44 1998
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From: Puthoff aol.com
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In a message dated 8/5/98 7:05:57 AM, you wrote:

<<What do you think...will this Minato Motor fly?>>

No firsthand evidence, but the rumor seems to be that the demo in Mexico was
not unambiguously positive.

Hal 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  5 08:42:52 1998
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In a message dated 8/5/98 7:05:57 AM, you wrote:

<<It Runs On Water".>>

Yes, I was on that.  As for the Meyer segment, well, it could have been left
out for my $$, and I told them so at the time.

Hal

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  5 08:43:19 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From: Robert I. Eachus <eachus mitre.org>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: 'vortex-l eskimo.com' <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 8:32 AM
Subject: RE: Light Pulse experiment re-post

Robert I. Eachus wrote:


>At 02:30 PM 8/4/98 -0700, Scudder, Henry J wrote:
>> One can determine time-delay quite accurately using a continuous
>>high frequency pseudo-random modulation, and correlating the output with a
>>second pseudo-random generator. The sampling time is the bit rate of the
>>modulation, and the cycle length of the modulation is chosen to be more
then
>>the total possible time delay to avoid fencepost errors.
>
>   Isn't that what I just said?  Oh, Nimtz used amplitude modulation, and
>in one run transmitted music, but if the correlation is done right, there
>is no questioning the results.

According to the Julian Brown Article:

www.socorro.demon.co.uk/gunter.htm

Nimtz used Frequency Modulation. (Mozart's 40th Symphony)8 pages of text.
Good Stuff.

Regards,   Frederick
>
>                                        Robert I. Eachus
>
>with Standard_Disclaimer;
>use  Standard_Disclaimer;
>function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
>
>
>

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Re George Holz' plots of Vince's data, at http://www.varisys.com/vortex.htm

>The case for OU performance is getting stronger
>as additional data continues to show much higher deg. C per watt
>readings when K is present.

The data show that Vince's system is not yet a calorimeter:

1. The resistive calibration run gives a T/P  (temperature divided by
power, or degree per watt) that varies over more than a 2 to 1 range. A
good calorimeter would show a constant T/P.

2. Most of the data taken with K in the tube lies between two "calibration"
data sets. Here I consider the "no K .5" gap" data to be calibration data,
because they are meant to be a "no OU" case. The "no K .5" gap" data lie
farther from the resistive calibration data, in the sense of perpendicular
distances between the curves, than all but one of the potassium data sets.
In other words, all but one of the potassium data sets lie in the wide
uncertainty range between the two "no OU" or "calibration" sets. Clearly,
one can only conclude that any correlation between T and P is too loose to
say anything about power from a measurement of T.

I understand that Vince is still exploring how to run these discharges. I
admire his tenacity and how quickly he has learned. I hope that he puts a
calorimeter around his tube in due time.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  5 09:06:36 1998
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Robert I. Eachus wrote:

>You have to not think that way. The signal >DOES NOT PROPAGATE through the
forbidden gap,
>it tunnels.

What are you, the THOUGHT POLICE?  :-)

The A1*V1 = A2*V2 Continuity Equation applied to the cut-off frequency and
Phase Velocity of
a waveguide, or a fiber-optic thread, could give some sense to these
"Alice-in-Wonderland" approaches to PRACTICAL PHYSICS:

Vp = V1/[1 - (Fc^2/F^2)]^1/2

Vg = V1*[1 - (Fc^2/F^2)]^1/2

I would think that when you go around abruptly changing the dimensions of a
"waveguide" and introducing higher modes etc., all sorts of fantastic things
could happen.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  5 12:06:43 1998
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: H2 Glow discharge with a K electrode
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:10:19 -0400
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Mike Schaffer comments on the new graphs of Vince Cockeram's experiment:

>The data show that Vince's system is not yet a calorimeter:
>1. The resistive calibration run gives a T/P  (temperature divided by
>power, or degree per watt) that varies over more than a 2 to 1 range. A
>good calorimeter would show a constant T/P.
>
This is obviously true, no claim that this system functions as a calorimeter
has been made. The consistency of  the resistive calibration data is
interesting, however, when compared to the highly variable results
in some of the with K runs.
>
>2. Most of the data taken with K in the tube lies between two "calibration"
>data sets. Here I consider the "no K .5" gap" data to be calibration data,
>because they are meant to be a "no OU" case.
The no K .5" gap case was intended to be a calibration for the
previous with K .5" gap case.
>
>The "no K .5" gap" data lie
>farther from the resistive calibration data, in the sense of perpendicular
>distances between the curves, than all but one of the potassium data sets.
>In other words, all but one of the potassium data sets lie in the wide
>uncertainty range between the two "no OU" or "calibration" sets. Clearly,
>one can only conclude that any correlation between T and P is too loose to
>say anything about power from a measurement of T.
-
After Vince started running experiments with varying electrode gaps,
it became clear that the thermocouple readings were strongly
influenced by the smaller heated region with smaller gaps, and that
even for 2" gaps, the original resistive calibration was not very accurate
due to the different heat distribution. It is therefore necessary to
restrict comparisons to those between runs with the same gap.
Pressure also appears to have some influence on measured
temperature in the last no K run, where it was varied over a
2 to 12 inHg range. Most of the variability that prevents you from
drawing conclusions from the data is removed when these
considerations are used to select appropriate runs for
comparison.
-
Some of the clearest differences with and
without K are found in the very similar runs with .5" gap.
The remaining major difference other than K was that the
no K runs were at a lower pressures. Based on the measurements
of pressure dependence and my experience in other gas
discharge devices, I would expect the higher pressure of
the with K test to result in a thermal profile giving lower thermocouple
readings. The with K run however, averaged 19.3 deg. C per watt while
the no K run averaged 14.0 deg. C per watt.
-
These experiments are suggestive but far from proving OU operation.
Either much larger thermal output/input ratios or calorimetric
evaluation could provide this proof with independent replications.
-
Regards,
George Holz  - george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems








From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  5 17:20:59 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Light Pulse experiment re-post
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 00:19:59 GMT
Organization: Improving
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References: <3.0.1.32.19980804171504.00c67af0 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980803182722.00cd7c30@spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980803182722.00cd7c30@spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980804171504.00c67af0@spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980805105126.00c786

e0 spectre.mitre.org>
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On Wed, 05 Aug 1998 10:51:26 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote:

>At 02:44 AM 8/5/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>>Doesn't phase correlation imply that the FTL signal is compared with a
>>signal that follows another path?
>
>   Yes.
>
>>    And if so, then how do we know that
>>the "non FTL" signal didn't undergo normal delay associated with RF
>>transmission. IOW I am willing to believe that there was a difference
>>in the signals, but how do we know it wasn't due to one travelling
>>below c, and one travelling at c (or even both below c, but one faster
>>than the other)?
>
>   Let's say I hand you an envelope containing the Wall Street Journal
>headlines and stock prices as of next Thursday.  You open the envelope read
>the "predictions," then wait until next Thursday to see how they pan out.
>If they do, you have good reason to believe I can predict the future, even
>though, in theory, the information in the delayed channel could be based on
>my predictions, rather than the other way around.

You appear to be talking about cause and effect violation, while I was
simply talking about the "absolute values" of the velocities involved.
IOW how do we know that the experiment didn't involve two signals at
e.g. .99c and .999c?
As far as I can see this sort of difference could still yield the same
result, or not?
The "FTL" result, appears to be based on the assumption that the
slower signal travelled at c. I'm questioning that assumption.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  5 20:48:22 1998
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A 100 meter diameter "Coil" of n turns of 14 GA. wire, pulsed at about 3.0
Megahertz, might create an Aether Vortex if the energy density is
sufficient.

A laser beam "shined" down the axis of a pulsed coil should determine if c
can be exceeded by the "thinning" of the Aether caused by EM drag:

v = 1/[(uo/k)*(eo/k)]^1/2 where k is the thinning factor.

One should be able to do this "on the bench" before going to a full-scale
unit.   :-)

WITH R.F.BURN AND IONIZING RADIATION HAZARD DISCLAIMER!

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  5 21:00:25 1998
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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In a message dated 98-08-04 16:59:22 EDT, you write:

> Can you view these Vince or do I need to send you the .xls file?

Got them fine George, no need to send the files.   Thanks

  <<snip>>
>  the deg. C per watt readings appear to be falling off as
>  the pressure is raised in the no K runs and would
>  be expected to do so in the with K runs as well. 
>  The reason for the falloff may be that more heat is
>  generated closer to the cathode with higher pressure
>  and is therefore more distant from the thermocouple
>  which is centered on the gap.

George, in all these runs the red hot area of the tube appears to be
just about centered between the electrodes. ie: it didn't seem to
move towards the cathode as the pressure is increased.

>  The case for OU performance is getting stronger
>  as additional data continues to show much higher deg. C per watt
>  readings when K is present.

Well, I'm still skeptical on OU for this setup.  I'm trying to find an error
in my setup but have found none .....yet.  
More runs when the weather cooler. I't was 108 F today! (14% RH)
Will post _all_ data here.

Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas Nevada 

>  Regards,
>  George Holz  - george varisys.com
>  Varitronics Systems
>  
>  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  5 21:01:55 1998
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In a message dated 98-08-05 12:00:20 EDT, you write:
> From:	Schaffer gav.gat.com

>  Re George Holz' plots of Vince's data, at
>http://www.varisys.com/vortex.htm
>  
>  >The case for OU performance is getting stronger
>  >as additional data continues to show much higher deg. C per watt
>  >readings when K is present.
>  
>  The data show that Vince's system is not yet a calorimeter:

True.
  
>  1. The resistive calibration run gives a T/P  (temperature divided by
>  power, or degree per watt) that varies over more than a 2 to 1 range.
  <<snip>>

 Most likely because the tube is running in the open (except for
a safety shield) and there is a greater heat loss from convection at
the higher temperatures. 
  
>  2. Most of the data taken with K in the tube lies between two "calibration"
>  data sets. Here I consider the "no K .5" gap" data to be calibration data,
>  because they are meant to be a "no OU" case. The "no K .5" gap" data lie
>  farther from the resistive calibration data, in the sense of perpendicular
>  distances between the curves, than all but one of the potassium data sets.
>  In other words, all but one of the potassium data sets lie in the wide
>  uncertainty range between the two "no OU" or "calibration" sets. Clearly,
>  one can only conclude that any correlation between T and P is too loose to
>  say anything about power from a measurement of T.
>  
>  I understand that Vince is still exploring how to run these discharges. I
>  admire his tenacity and how quickly he has learned. I hope that he puts a
>  calorimeter around his tube in due time.

Thanks Michael. I am trying to understand this on the fly so to say. I know
next to nothing on calorimetry and really don't see with my very limited
knowledge how I could build one.  For the present I will continue
running the setup in it's present configuration, looking for the
combination that will give the best temperature per watt. This then will
provide a calorimetry person a starting point. One problem I have with
joule heater calibration is getting enough power into the small area
of the reactor tube. The heater slags. Please remember the _only_ joule
heater calibration was run with a SS wire coil  ~1.5 inches in length.  That
was when I was running a electrode gap of that length so it can't be valid
for the .5 inch gap presently running.  Comments? 
So the present problen is how to get enough joule heater into a .5 inch
tube length to provide accurate calibration without melting the heater?  

Yes, maybe lower temp runs may be the answer here but I feel that the
Mills/Farrell reaction wants a high temperature.
 I will keep truckin' on, trying always for a better way.

Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas Nevada 
 
>  Michael J. Schaffer
>  General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
>  Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  5 21:30:10 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: H2 Glow discharge with a K electrode
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 04:29:50 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Wed, 5 Aug 1998 23:58:57 EDT, VCockeram aol.com wrote:
[snip]
>Yes, maybe lower temp runs may be the answer here but I feel that the
>Mills/Farrell reaction wants a high temperature.
> I will keep truckin' on, trying always for a better way.
[snip]
Hi Vince,

I know this is hardly relevant at the moment, but at some future time
when you have the calorimetry working, you might also like to try a
couple of runs with an Mo++ compound, ISO potassium.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  6 00:27:51 1998
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Subject: Solar Cell Degradation
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Came across the following abstract for a talk to be given locally
in the near future.  It reminded me of some discussion between
Jed and others, so some here may be interested :-

Current Status of Methods for Reducing the Light Induced Degradation of
Amorphous Silicon

JCL Cornish, E Matkowski, CP Lund and PJ Jennings

Physics and Energy Studies, Division of Science
Murdoch University, MURDOCH, WA 6150, AUSTRALIA

Telephone: (08) 9360 2181  FAX: (08) 9310 1711
email: cornish fizzy.murdoch.edu.au

ABSTRACT

A material that degrades its photovoltaic properties when exposed to
sunlight seems a strange candidate for a solar cell material.  Yet this is
exactly the situation with amorphous silicon.  The reversible
photodegradation known as the Staebler-Wronski effect has long been seen as
a  barrier to widespread utilisation of amorphous silicon solar cells.
Nevertheless, cells fabricated from this material are finding more and more
applications.  A survey of the recent literature shows that many producers
have been able to reduce the light-induced degradation to insignificant
proportions. The Staebler-Wronski effect will be explained and the
techniques currently used to reduce it will be reviewed.  Based on our work
at Murdoch University over a number of years, a proposed model for the
Staebler-Wronski effect will be presented. Methods for reducing the
Staebler-Wronski effect will be discussed in the light of this model.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  6 05:24:09 1998
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Hi all,

Last night I tried what can I get from a coil with a marginal geometry as 1 mm x 34 mm rectangular cross section, 63 mm length, one layer, virtually a flat coil made 0.60 mm magnet wire. (if it assumed the current pass from the center of wires the cross s

ection become 1.60 mm instead of 1 mm)
(Coil has plastic core made from audio cassette cover.)

I coupled the coil magnetically and electrically to a oscillator circuit. I tuned the frequency around 20Mhz, (I have no scope currently to tell the exact frequency) and coil resonate and produce magnetic and electric fields enough to light a small flores

cent tube at proximity (few cm's), also light brightly my sense coil-LED formed by one loop ow wire terminated by a hi-eff. LED. This is my classical test mode as obtain with variety of circular cross section coil. This flat coil perform not less than a c

onventional coil. Even the N-S-N resonating mode is more exotic as the third (S) pole is on middle of the coil, and the field emerge perpendicular to surface of the coil, and what is obtained is fluxes leaving from both sides (on opposite directions) are 

separated by 1 mm.

How the flux is guided effectively in this thin section, is very interesting I think. May a detailed measurement of the inductance, capacitance and shape and strength of the magnetic and electric fields
may show this geometry and operating mode obey classical coil calculation.  

I feel slim geometries are promising for coil based OU research, not just waste of wire. :) (even it is not possible to reuse these highly folded wires for an other coil)


Anyway, I think this coil and its operating mode have an educational value to show to students principles (given on textbooks) are not powerful guides as one thinks.

Diagrams: (use fixed fonts)




                       //| N
                      // | N
                  ^  //  | N
                  | //   | N
                 S|//    | N
                  //     | N
                 //      | N
                //       | N
               //  S     | N
              //   S     / N 
          <==||     ======>   
           N ||    S   /
           N ||    S  /   
           N ||      /
           N ||     /
           N ||    /|S 
           N ||   / |
           N ||  /  V
           N || / 
           N ||/  

3d view. Only flux emerging from S pole is shown.



             ||  
             ||  
             ||  
           S || S
     <------ || ------> 
             ||  
             ||  
             ||  
             ||  
            >  <    
            1 mm  

Middle position  cross section.



                                    //| 
                                   // | 
                                  //  | 
                     lead        //   |
                       ---------//|   |
                               //||   |
                              //|||   | 
                             //||||   | 
                            //|||||   | 
                           //||||||   |
                          //|||||||   | 
                         //||||||||   |
                        //|||||||||   |
                       //||||||||||   |
                      //|||||||||||  /
                     //|||||||||||| / 
                    //|||||||||||||/
                   //|||||||||||||/
                  //|||||||||||||/
                 //|||||||||||||/
                //|||||||||||||/
               //|||||||||||||/
              //|||||||||||||/
  lead       //|||||||||||||/
     -------//|||||||||||||/
           // ||||||||||||/
          //  |||||||||||/ windings
         //   ||||||||||/   
        //    |||||||||/
       //     ||||||||/
      ||      |||||||/
      ||      ||||||/
      ||      |||||/
      ||      ||||/
      ||      |||/
      ||      ||/
      ||      |/
      ||      /
      ||     /
      ||    /
      ||   /  <- plastic sheet form extension
      ||  /
      || /
      ||/

Realistic view.


Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  6 05:26:22 1998
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From: "Rob King" <kingrs hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Solar Cell Degradation
Content-Type: text/plain
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 05:23:08 PDT
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John, good point,

I bought 100 6 inch square amophorous silicon solar cells with the plan 
of putting them onto my roof when I read to my horror that you can 
expect the cells output to fall by up 50% in one year.

So a 50 watt panel measuring 5 foot by 3 foot will produce about 5 watts 
after only 4 years.  Hmmmm...think I'll pay the extra for the crystaline 
silicon, because in the long run it would be cheaper.

Anyone want to buy 1 about 90 6 inch cells for about 50 GBP?

Rob King

>From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Aug  6 01:00:55 1998
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>Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 15:29:20 +0800
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
>Subject: Solar Cell Degradation
>In-Reply-To: <35AD7F98.73C56CDE ihug.co.nz>
>References: <328e8acd.35ab74ff aol.com>
> <3.0.1.32.19980715143254.008ec790 cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
> <35AD72E6.BD8F97CC ihug.co.nz>
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>
>Came across the following abstract for a talk to be given locally
>in the near future.  It reminded me of some discussion between
>Jed and others, so some here may be interested :-
>
>Current Status of Methods for Reducing the Light Induced Degradation of
>Amorphous Silicon
>
>JCL Cornish, E Matkowski, CP Lund and PJ Jennings
>
>Physics and Energy Studies, Division of Science
>Murdoch University, MURDOCH, WA 6150, AUSTRALIA
>
>Telephone: (08) 9360 2181  FAX: (08) 9310 1711
>email: cornish fizzy.murdoch.edu.au
>
>ABSTRACT
>
>A material that degrades its photovoltaic properties when exposed to
>sunlight seems a strange candidate for a solar cell material.  Yet this 
is
>exactly the situation with amorphous silicon.  The reversible
>photodegradation known as the Staebler-Wronski effect has long been 
seen as
>a  barrier to widespread utilisation of amorphous silicon solar cells.
>Nevertheless, cells fabricated from this material are finding more and 
more
>applications.  A survey of the recent literature shows that many 
producers
>have been able to reduce the light-induced degradation to insignificant
>proportions. The Staebler-Wronski effect will be explained and the
>techniques currently used to reduce it will be reviewed.  Based on our 
work
>at Murdoch University over a number of years, a proposed model for the
>Staebler-Wronski effect will be presented. Methods for reducing the
>Staebler-Wronski effect will be discussed in the light of this model.
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  6 06:24:38 1998
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07:20 PM ET 08/05/98
What's killing the frogs? Chemical latest suspect

(Updates with dissenting opinion)
By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A common chemical derived from vitamin A and key to the
development of all animals, from fish to humans, may be causing gross
deformities in frogs across the U.S. and the world, biologists said Wednesday.
They said the weird abnormalities seen in dying frogs in an otherwise pristine
Minnesota environment were clearly due to retinoids - chemicals perhaps best
known as skin and acne treatments. But they are also powerful teratogens -
compounds that cause birth defects. Because of their permeable skin, and because
frogs are born and develop in the water, they are much more sensitive to the
environment.

<http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2555413366-d19>

-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
         Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
         Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

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John Winterflood wrote:
> 
(snip)

> Current Status of Methods for Reducing the Light Induced Degradation of
> Amorphous Silicon
> 

Thanks for the info, John.

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  6 08:11:59 1998
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Subject: Re: Light Pulse experiment re-post
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 <3.0.1.32.19980804171504.00c67af0 spectre.mitre.org>
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At 12:19 AM 8/6/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>The "FTL" result, appears to be based on the assumption that the
>slower signal travelled at c. I'm questioning that assumption.

    This is called a strawman argument.  You set up a strawman, then knock
it down.  No one asserted that the "slower" signal travelled at c, in fact,
the way these experiments are normally run, it will travel at 2/3 to 3/4 of
c  (Coaxial cable.)  You don't normally measure those delays directly, you
just set things up so that the collection device, usually a storage scope,
is equidistant from the two sampling points.  However, to eliminate a
different sort of criticism, as I remember it Nimtz used two collectors
with a syncronizing clock, the recorded signals were then correlated.  This
allows you to configure the experiment such that superluminal signalling is
the only possible explanation.  (Although I also would like to see a
multiple gap device, to remove all doubt.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  6 08:40:29 1998
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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:36:47 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Odd coil geometry
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Hello Hamdi,

What is the guiding hunch behind these coil designs? I understand 
Potter/Aspden devices and filed cancellation and work cycles. I 
understand how a device with a ferromagnetic could work.  I don't 
understand the guiding light behind say 'biflar' coils, I am prepared to 
believe that the zpe can be tapped but what is the principle?; I 
understand how Potter/Aspden devices could like I understasnd how phase 
changing can recylce heat. Both have a *mechansim*.

Sorry for typos I have to use this system when network is not busy.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  6 09:48:19 1998
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From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Hi Remi,

Remi Cornwall wrote:
> 
> Hello Hamdi,
> 
> What is the guiding hunch behind these coil designs? I understand
> Potter/Aspden devices and filed cancellation and work cycles. I
> understand how a device with a ferromagnetic could work.  I don't
> understand the guiding light behind say 'bifilars' coils, I am prepared to
> believe that the zpe can be tapped but what is the principle?;

I have some weak arguments:

1) A friend suggested may the magnetic field around wires or a coil create a barrier to the the energy to be extracted (ZPE or whatever), or oppose the coupling.

2) I am winding different coil configurations, and most of them show interesting behaviour, even some of them do not make much of sense in clasical term.  But when playing with the frequiency, coils always show unconventional behaviours. This time I tried

 to wind a coil could not even workable on clasical term or very poor design, lossy,  and just waste of wire.(may the term "coil" may not be suitable for these configurations.) My design argument is using conductors and insulator to form a homogen topolog

y and not having large inductance, trying to obtain some holes on the magnetic field. This was my first radical attempt, with a very simple geometry, and obtained very good result by the resonating performanse of the coil. Altrough I have no hope to extra

ct enery with coil sized resonances, but it is very initutive to see the "dynamic" behaviour of coil on resonance.

3) I think the magnetic and electric fields that coils generate have a kind of symmetry. (geometrical, magnetic-electric symmetry,time domain, etc.).I think if disturb the natural symmetries of the fields, I can open a gap, where the energy transfer is po

ssible. I just think the electric or magnetic field or both are pistons which push and pull another field(?) which carry an energy which we want to capture. If the motion of pistons remain symmetric, there will be no energy transfer, but if one destroy th

e symmetry like putting valves or diodes. the system wil become a pump.  Doesn't it sound good? :)

In this design I see some unbalance between magnetic and electrical fields, magnetic field and inductance should remain minimal, and there will be a significant strength difference between inner and outer magnetic field on resonance. More the interwinding

 capacitance is excessive, compared to weak inductance. When it runs large potentials build on middle section of the coil where is the internal magnetic pole is located. by the large interwinding capacitance, high voltages, and with moderate running frequ

ency on 20 MHz region, one can realize there will be severe displacement currents, which feed the conductance currents compensating the low inductance and provide the inducted voltage.

I think it is a favorable environment to disturb the symmetry.

Regards,

hamdi ucar


> Sorry for typos I have to use this system when network is not busy.

Yes, Spell checking is indispensable in my postings. :)

> Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  6 10:59:05 1998
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From: Puthoff aol.com
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In a message dated 7/18/98 2:31:07 PM, you wrote:

<<Could the ZPF have the property of 
acting as an absolute frame of reference that preserves causality? >>

If one is standing still or moving at constant velocity, the ZPF looks the
same (it is Lorentz-invariant), so in the sense of the SRT it does not
constitute an unambiguous reference frame, as you can't tell if you are moving
or not.  Therefore, the usual SRT paradoxes and ambiguities still hold.

As for superluminal correlations between remote quantum events (EPR paradox),
there might be a solution in the form analogous to watching two sticks on the
beach falling at the same time because of being broadsided by an incoming
wave.  If you didn't know the wave was there, you would be amazed that the
sticks knew how to fall down at the same time, even though, one by one, each
appeared to fall at some random time (due to the random arrival of waves).  In
the ZPE case, there are broadsiding waves that possibly could correlate
"remote" random quantum events.

Once you get into GR, however, there is an alternative.  Imagine a tube (like
an optical fiber) of reduced vacuum fluctuations.  Within, the vel of light
would be increased (vel of light is higher between Casimir plates).  Thereby
you could send a message > c.  Such vacuum engineering (if we can ever
accomplish it) could provide all sorts of apparent violations of SRT.

These all speak to your issue generally, but do not exactly establish an
absolute reference frame.

Best regards,

Hal Puthoff  

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In a message dated 98-08-06 00:38:44 EDT, you write:

> I know this is hardly relevant at the moment, but at some future time
>  when you have the calorimetry working,.....

I'm not sure I'm qualified to do calorimetry Robin. No, thats wrong, I _am_
sure I am not qualified!

....> you might also like to try a couple of runs with an Mo++ compound, ISO >
potassium.

>  Regards,
>  Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

Why Mo++ ?  Keep answer simple, I'm not a chemist but am curious. <g>


Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas Nevada

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Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:35:37 -0400
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To: Vortex

Rob King writes:

     I bought 100 6 inch square amorphous silicon solar cells with the plan
     of putting them onto my roof when I read to my horror that you can
     expect the cells output to fall by up 50% in one year.

50% sounds too high. Where did you read that, Rob? The literature I have seen
describes at 10% to 20% decline. The warranty for the cell should spell this
out, but then again, the warranty is probably wrong according to Thomas and
Post at Sandia National Laboratory. So we're back to square one.


     So a 50 watt panel measuring 5 foot by 3 foot will produce about 5 watts
     after only 4 years.

A 5 x 3' cell that produced only 5 watts after 4 years would not be saleable.
That performance would not be acceptable in any application I know of. The
decay curves I have seen are not linear. Usually you see a large drop in
performance the first year or two, and then a gradual falling off, and then a
precipitous decline when the plastic housing cracks and water gets into the
cell or something like that happens. That's ideal, but things can go wrong
more quickly. Thomas and Post show a curve that starts with a steep decline
which abruptly becomes even steeper.


John Winterflood wrote about Matkowski's solution to one of the problems with
amorphous silicon. There are other problems. Some of them are prosaic, like
dirt settling on the PV surface. You can improve performance by cleaning with
Windex. That's fine for someone with PV power in an isolated vacation home,
but it is not practical for the Department of Transportation maintenance
department which has to service widely separated emergency telephones placed
next to highways, where the air is filthy. I recall that one of the biggest
headaches at the California LUZ solar thermal generation plants was cleaning
off the mirror-like collector surfaces. The LUZ California plants generate 354
MW, which is a significant amount of power. It is more than the world-wide
installed PV capacity, which I estimate at 117 MW based on Worldwatch
statistics. (Worldwatch says the installed base is 800 MW.) Unfortunately, LUZ
went out of business, but the power plants are still being operated. I believe
they cost more than conventional, fossil fuel plants to operate primarily
because of cleaning and plumbing problems.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  6 13:55:27 1998
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>From: Puthoff aol.com

>In a message dated 7/18/98 2:31:07 PM, you wrote:
>
><<Could the ZPF have the property of 
>acting as an absolute frame of reference that preserves causality? >>
>
>If one is standing still or moving at constant velocity, the ZPF looks the
>same (it is Lorentz-invariant), so in the sense of the SRT it does not
>constitute an unambiguous reference frame, as you can't tell if you are moving
>or not.  Therefore, the usual SRT paradoxes and ambiguities still hold.

But all matter must interact with all radiation that is present, and the CBR
radiation is anisotropic.  Therefore, even though we cannot detect  a
difference in our present low velocity state of motion, there ought to be a
difference as we approach the speed of light, and the Doppler shifted
frequency of the CBR is shifted to higher values that become important.

Ergo, do you think that ZPE theories are going to remain Lorentz invariant
even as you approach c?  And if not, then technically they are not Lorentz
invariant even now at our low velocities, ie, just because we cannot detect
the invariance doesn't mean it isn't there.



>
>As for superluminal correlations between remote quantum events (EPR paradox),
>there might be a solution in the form analogous to watching two sticks on the
>beach falling at the same time because of being broadsided by an incoming
>wave.  If you didn't know the wave was there, you would be amazed that the
>sticks knew how to fall down at the same time, even though, one by one, each
>appeared to fall at some random time (due to the random arrival of waves).  In
>the ZPE case, there are broadsiding waves that possibly could correlate
>"remote" random quantum events.

Yes, I agree.  Also, what we think of as being photons, it seems to me, must
have a geometry more like a smoke ring vortex.  And so they too are
distributed phenomena with transverse components.  Such a description allows
the notion of photonic induced effects, such as the photo-electric effect,
to be induced due to  the rate of change in intensity of the waves making up
the geometry of the vortex.  ie, rather than the entire photon needing to be
absorbed, all you need is for the wave intensity gradient to encounter the
metal or detector.  

Thus, the central region of the wave may not have travelled the entire
distance yet, while the leading effects of the photon have arrived.


>
>Once you get into GR, however, there is an alternative.  Imagine a tube (like
>an optical fiber) of reduced vacuum fluctuations.  Within, the vel of light
>would be increased (vel of light is higher between Casimir plates).  Thereby
>you could send a message > c.  Such vacuum engineering (if we can ever
>accomplish it) could provide all sorts of apparent violations of SRT.

Hal, rather than think of the fiber as a region of reduced fluctuations,
think instead of that being a region of intensified fluctuations, BUT, where
the fluctuatiosn are better coherent with one another than they would be out
in individual atoms in free space.  ie, a series of pendulums that are phase
and frequency locked, but oscillating at high intensity will not be intense
relative to one another.

This way, you have reason for an aether density gradient in GR leading to
lensing around massive objects due to an increase in the aether wave
intensity, but you also wind up with less disorganization, and so you wind
up with the Casimir effect.  Wave energy coming from space is less well
organized.  

And that in turn, also leads to gravitation as a push downward from
frequency incoherent wave energy arriving from above, where some of it has
been filtered from passing through the earth, below.

>
>These all speak to your issue generally, but do not exactly establish an
>absolute reference frame.

thinking in these terms, you can establish a local absolute reference frame
via observation of the CBR.  You can also establish a local absolute
reference frame via centering out the Doppler shift values relative to local
"stationary" stars in the milky way.

Ross Tessien


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  6 13:57:08 1998
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The following is an European Space Agency press release:


                               Nr 29-98                 Paris, 6 August 1998

  SOHO maintains contact with ground control

  Having succeeded in receiving a response from the SOHO spacecraft late on
  Monday  night (3 August 1998), controllers at NASA,s Goddard Space Flight
  Center  (GSFC)  in  Greenbelt,  Maryland,  USA  have  continued  to  coax
  information from the spacecraft concerning its on-board status.

  The  spacecraft  has  responded  so  far  to the attempts to activate the
  on-board  telemetry  data  system only by sending a simple carrier signal
  with  bursts  of  10  second  duration.  This  signal  has  been  tracked
  consistently  since  the  satellite was contacted on Monday night and has
  been  received  at  ESA  ground  stations  in  Perth, Australia and Redu,
  Belgium, as well as by NASA Deep Space Network stations worldwide.

  For  the  time being, the bursts of carrier signal are too short to allow
  the sensitive ground station receivers to `lock-on' to the signal and ESA
  engineers  are  currently  assessing the steps necessary to obtain a more
  continuous  signal  from  the  spacecraft. The intermittent nature of the
  signal  is caused by the cyclic variation of the on-board power supply as
  the  solar arrays are shadowed due to the spacecraft's unintentional spin
  motion.   Attempts   will  be  made  to  charge  the  on-board  batteries
  sufficiently  to  ensure  that  more continuous power availability to the
  spacecraft transmitter system.

  "Recovery  will  be  a  slow  and  careful  operation" said ESA's Head of
  Science  Projects,  John Credland, "The main thing is that the spacecraft
  is  now responding to us and we will take one step at a time to bring the
  spacecraft  into  a  more favourable attitude before assessing any damage
  which may have been caused by its six-week unforeseen hibernation".

  Radio contact with SOHO, a joint mission of the European Space Agency and
  NASA,  was  interrupted on 25 June 1998. The delicate recovery activities
  are  being directed by the ESA SOHO project team from the NASA Operations
  Centre at GSFC.

  More information on SOHO, including mission status reports is available
  on the Internet at http://sohowww.estec.esa.nl or via the new ESA science
  website: http://sci.esa.int

  For further information, please contact:

  Franco Bonacina
  European Space Agency, Headquarters, Paris, France
  Tel:+33.(0)1.5369.7713

  Don Savage
  NASA Headquarters, Washington D.C.
  Tel:+1.202.358.1727

  Bill Steigerwald
  NASA Goddard Spaceflight Center, Greenbelt, MD
  Tel:+1.301.286.50.17


_____________________________________________________________________________
To subscribe to SOHONEWS send mail to Majordomo sohomail.nascom.nasa.gov with
an empty 'Subject:' line and 'subscribe sohonews' as the body of the message.
To send information to be distributed in SOHONEWS, please, send e-mail to
editor sohomail.nascom.nasa.gov
_____________________________________________________________________________
Luis Sanchez Duarte
SOHO Science Data Coordinator
European Space Agency


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  6 19:52:41 1998
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Subject: Re: Light Pulse experiment re-post
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Re: Roberts discussion on Nimitz.

I've been to his website, a goodly amount of data there for the curious.
Just to remind folks, thats.

http://www.rrz.uni-koeln.de/math-nat-fak/ph2/n/grni.e.html

So, my understanding after a quick browse of the papers there
is that 

a) The effect can be completely described by maxwells equations 
   (you seemed to indicate otherwise in a post, but check out
   the papers).

b) That the basis of the argument is that the "center of mass" of
   the energy is what is travelling in excess of c. This is
   reminiscent of what occurs in nonlinear transmission media
   where a sharpening of the wavefront occurs. I'll have to read
   more, as I feel presently that this is "cheating" a bit...
   A while back there was a nice article in Scientific American
   about tunnelling, for those less inclined to read the web
   site material I recommend it. Very accessible.
   
c) Theory would predict there to be some signal in the intervening
   space, although attenuated. I didn't see any experimental
   evidence to deny this, but perhaps you had one paper in mind?

d) Staging multiple discontinuities would be problematic, even
   one produces serious attenuation. Likely one would be in the
   mud after a few. 

K.
	

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  6 19:56:26 1998
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Puthoff aol.com wrote:

Sorry for the delay in responding, Hal. My monitor blew up a few days
ago. Literally.

> If one is standing still or moving at constant velocity, the ZPF looks the
> same (it is Lorentz-invariant), so in the sense of the SRT it does not
> constitute an unambiguous reference frame, as you can't tell if you are moving
> or not.  Therefore, the usual SRT paradoxes and ambiguities still hold.

I wonder if it might be something like the Lorentz-Poincare ether
theory; the 'ether' supposedly looks Lorentz invariant when you're
moving at constant speed. (if I interpret their contraction hypothesis
correctly). Anyways, its interesting to think about. As a matter of
fact, the ZPF is sort of an ether, just not necessarily in the usual
sense.

<snip>
>In
> the ZPE case, there are broadsiding waves that possibly could correlate
> "remote" random quantum events.

Interesting. 

> Within, the vel of light
> would be increased (vel of light is higher between Casimir plates).  Thereby
> you could send a message > c.  Such vacuum engineering (if we can ever
> accomplish it) could provide all sorts of apparent violations of SRT.

I'd like to see something like this tried out. BTW: what exactly is it
that causes C to increase between the Casimir plates? A decrease in the
u0 and e0 of the vacuum?

Thanks,
Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  6 20:02:46 1998
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Robert I. Eachus wrote:

>     Do you want butter or jam on that?  

Jam. Seedless please though...the seeds get stuck in my dental work;)

>        Of course FTL for less than a foot is not very exciting.  What you
> have to do is build longer runs by amplifying the signal between forbiden
> gaps: AFAFAFAFAFA....

I don't see why we couldn't build something like this. I'd like to also
try sending a signal through a waveguide and contracting it while the
signal was in transit. Of course, I'd need an oscilloscope for this kind
of stuff. Anyone know where I could get a cheap one that would work on
signal transit time measurements?
 
Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  6 20:48:13 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From: Kyle R. Mcallister <stk sunherald.infi.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Thursday, August 06, 1998 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: Light Pulse experiment re-post


Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

>I don't see why we couldn't build something like this. I'd like to also
>try sending a signal through a waveguide and contracting it while the
>signal was in transit.

Vg = Group Velocity
Vp = Phase Velocity

According to my Oracle: The axial velocity of a wavefront or a group of
waves is called the Group Velocity. The Diagonal Velocity (Phase
Velocity)APPEARS to be Greater Than c.

c = (Vp*Vg)^1/2

Vg/c = [1 - (lambda/2*inside guide width)^2]
^1/2

Group Lambda/Space Lambda =

1/[1 - (lambda space/2*inside guide width)^2]^1/2

Are you sure you want to go to the trouble? :-)

Regards,    Frederick


>
>Kyle R. Mcallister
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  6 21:33:55 1998
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A Thought Experiment:

Build a "guillotine" using a board in a box-chute going through a horizontal
slot with a light source and a photoconductor with it's output hooked to a
scope. With some velocity
close the light gap by shoving the board into
the slot.

Now cut the bottom of the board on an angle and open the gap to the initial
photoconductor reading, then shove the board down at the same velocity.

The "Apex" should be moving across the horizon
at several times the vertical velocity of the board.

Will the scope trace be any different, at any angle of cut on the board?
:-)

Now if Lynn Kurtz will give us a mathematical
model for this?

Regards,    Frederick





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 03:38:14 1998
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Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:36:28 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: Re: Odd coil, intuition, mechanisms, science
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Hamdi,

Saved your message. Intuition has its own poetry, a kind of internal 
language with its own system of cogs and wheel and sometimes logic. it is 
the task of the thinker to always translate that vision and communicate 
it on to others.

Some of the things in your email 'clicked' but the others I must 
understand your internal thought processes, in short your intuition of 
the problem. Being engineering trained, I have problems with the 
sub-sub-atomic and the very abstract - I like pictures, models, concrete 
absolute things interacting before I've really understood something.

Here's how I understand new energy blantanly and simply:

1) No sane person can question the first law, just add bits to it. 
Mechanism: cycle in a non cnservative potential.

2) Second law: To defeat this one must by definition show reordering 
hence sorting.


Other things,
CF) Why not? A mechanism for low energy nuclear reactions mediated by 
charge cluster perhaps?
(Personal viewpoint, cf won't be used for energy production in the long 
run, difficult, messy, temperamental. Its future is RAD waste ameliroation.)

Anitgrav) Well, it's robust here a grand unified theory will emerge

Paranormal, alt medicine) Some of the stuff isn't baloney. Reconciling 
that with a world which appears Newtonian will be fun. Theories of mind 
and conciousness wil emerge. This one seems suited to the 'old crowd'. 
Over forties have a lot of ecletic experience and are probably mellow 
enough for this :)

Remi.
(We gonna get some cisco routers one day :)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 03:44:39 1998
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Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:42:47 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Solar Cell Degradation
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Solar cells, solar schmells!

If you want clean energy, convert dat ocean heat direct into electricity!

Seriously,
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 06:04:34 1998
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Subject: RE: Solar Cell Degradation
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 07:48:02 -0500
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I was not sure if I was reading an email from the Alternative Energy list,
Hydrogen List of Vortex.  But I knew it could not possibly from The AE
group.

1st off there are thousands of homes using solar power (not just vacation
homes) as their only source of power or as a combination with wind/water
power.  These panels last over 20 years with about a 5% degradation.  The
Carrera Power plant in CA has been operating for over 20 years and they sell
their old panels to the public with a warranty that they will not be less
that 10% of the rated power.

2nd Why in the world would you pay high dollar for amorphous silicon?  Those
are primarily for low light conditions and are not at all like the
crystalline used by home owners and the power companies.  If you got a good
deal on them then I could understand but I am not aware of any research done
using amorphous silicon for outside uses.

3rd as far as the dirt goes, solar panels operate best with a 30-45 degree
tilt due to the position of the sun to
your area.  This allows a significant "runoff" capability which, as long as
it rains occasionally, will keep the panels clean enough for operation.  In
both CA and Texas there are anywhere from 30% to 50% of the Department of
Transportation road signs using solar instead of the generator based.  I
can't tell you the last time I saw a school zone warning lights that were
NOT solar driven.

I realize that vortex is for the "out there on the edge" type of technology
discussions.  That is why I am part of it.  However please get a
subscription to "Home Power" PO Box 520 Ashland OR 97520 $22.50 for a six
issue yearly subscription, or at least subscribe to the Alternative Energy
email list at LISTSERV SJSUVM1.SJSU.EDU if you are serious about using
alternative power in a useful sense.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:72240.1256 compuserve.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 06, 1998 3:36 PM
> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
> Subject: Re: Solar Cell Degradation
>
>
> To: Vortex
>
> Rob King writes:
>
>      I bought 100 6 inch square amorphous silicon solar cells
> with the plan
>      of putting them onto my roof when I read to my horror
> that you can
>      expect the cells output to fall by up 50% in one year.
>
> 50% sounds too high. Where did you read that, Rob? The
> literature I have seen
> describes at 10% to 20% decline. The warranty for the cell
> should spell this
> out, but then again, the warranty is probably wrong according
> to Thomas and
> Post at Sandia National Laboratory. So we're back to square one.
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 07:16:32 1998
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Don Powell wrote:
> 
(snip good stuff)

> 3rd as far as the dirt goes, solar panels operate best with a 30-45 degree
> tilt due to the position of the sun to
> your area.  This allows a significant "runoff" capability which, as long as
> it rains occasionally, will keep the panels clean enough for operation.

Hey, Don, I recently tried the product "Windex - Outdoor" on our home
windows.  It worked pretty well for the effort involved.  Stuff like
this (spray on, wait a few seconds, spray rinse, etc.) would seem to be
a natural for automated cleaning of large solar arrays - yes?

BTW, it seems to me that an occasional mention of the "competition"
(i.e., PV) is good for the Vortexian soul.

Frank Stenger


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-----Original Message-----
From: Francis J. Stenger <fstenger interlaced.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Friday, August 07, 1998 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: Solar Cell Degradation

Frank Stenger wrote:


>Don Powell wrote:
>>
>(snip good stuff)
>
>> 3rd as far as the dirt goes, solar panels operate best with a 30-45
degree
>> tilt due to the position of the sun to
>> your area.  This allows a significant "runoff" capability which, as long
as
>> it rains occasionally, will keep the panels clean enough for operation.
>
>Hey, Don, I recently tried the product "Windex - Outdoor" on our home
>windows.  It worked pretty well for the effort involved.  Stuff like
>this (spray on, wait a few seconds, spray rinse, etc.) would seem to be
>a natural for automated cleaning of large solar arrays - yes?
>
>BTW, it seems to me that an occasional mention of the "competition"
>(i.e., PV) is good for the Vortexian soul.

So is blowing on the Ocean.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick
>
>Frank Stenger
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 07:43:58 1998
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From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Solar Cell Degradation
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---Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9> wrote:
>
> Solar cells, solar schmells!
> 
> If you want clean energy, convert dat ocean heat direct into
electricity!
> 
> Seriously,
> Remi.
> 
> 

Been thinking the same thing with temp differentials here in Colorado.
 There's a large swing between day/night, and there must be a way to
effectively capture the differential.
==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 07:45:48 1998
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From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Odd coil, intuition, mechanisms, science
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---Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9> wrote:
>
> Hamdi,
> 
> Saved your message. Intuition has its own poetry, a kind of internal 
> language with its own system of cogs and wheel and sometimes logic.
it is 
> the task of the thinker to always translate that vision and
communicate 
> it on to others.

Odd how that intuition stuff works.  Wouldn't it be great if we could
harness it on demand!?

> 
> Paranormal, alt medicine) Some of the stuff isn't baloney.
Reconciling 
> that with a world which appears Newtonian will be fun. Theories of
mind 
> and conciousness wil emerge.

I think we may be approaching critical mass with this sort of
thinking.  More and more folks are starting to 'come-around' to
it....esp engineers like us.

> 
> Remi.
> (We gonna get some cisco routers one day :)
> 
> 
Ewwwww......Go for the Bay routers instead.  Cisco's like MickySoft --
lots of market-share, but not the coolest/fastest/best product.  Hell,
skip the router  altogether and just go with level3 switching! 
Superfast, more flexible, and some are GigEnet capable!

Later,
==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 09:38:53 1998
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http://www.pufori.org/news/nws0805983.htm

ttyl
-Steve
-- 
     darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616    
   DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net
Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 10:05:01 1998
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In a message dated 8/6/98 2:59:59 PM, you wrote:

<<thinking in these terms, you can establish a local absolute reference frame
via observation of the CBR.  You can also establish a local absolute
reference frame via centering out the Doppler shift values relative to local
"stationary" stars in the milky way.
>>

Agreed.  But with the Lorentz-invariant ZPE, motion thru it even approaching c
supposedly is undetectable because all the Doppler shifts cancel out - no blue
shift in front or red shift in back because (with a freq-cubed distribution)
as specific components Doppler shift, others Doppler shift to take their
place, hence no detectable difference.  However, if the ZPE has a high-freq
cutoff (Planck cutoff?), then absolute motion would be detectable by detecting
that cutoff freq in different directions.  However, if at Planck freq it will
be a long time, if ever, that we can detect it.

Hal Puthoff 

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In a message dated 8/6/98 8:56:50 PM, you wrote:

<< BTW: what exactly is it
that causes C to increase between the Casimir plates? A decrease in the
u0 and e0 of the vacuum?>>

Exactly.  "The effect on the speed of light is due to the absorption of
photons to form virtual electron-positron pairs followed by the re-emission of
the photon. ...this process makes a contribution to the observed permittivity
of the vacuum (eo) and therefore to the speed of light."  (Barnett, Nature,
vol 344, p. 289, 22 March 1990.)

Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 10:37:49 1998
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Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:31:32 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Solar Cell Degradation
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To: Vortex

Frank Stenger suggests:

     Hey, Don, I recently tried the product "Windex - Outdoor" on our home
     windows.  It worked pretty well for the effort involved.  Stuff like
     this (spray on, wait a few seconds, spray rinse, etc.) would seem to be
     a natural for automated cleaning of large solar arrays - yes?

I am afraid this would not be economical in a central power generator or
isolated highway emergency box. You could try it at home, but Pacific Gas and
Electric better not. On a large scale this cleaning would cause significant
pollution. Take the 5' x 3' 50 watt panel that Rob King was looking at. 50
watts is probably "peak watts" meaning the output when lighting is optimum.
With winter and foul weather, [*] I think you get about 4 hours average peak
output per day in most locations, or 0.2 KWH per day from this panel, or 73
KWH per year. That's worth a whopping $4.38 per year. If you hired someone to
spray the panel twice a year it would hardly be worth the labor and detergent,
and if you did it less frequently it would not have much effect. My windows
get dirty again pretty quickly. The pollution problem would come about if you
had a huge array of cells, say 100 MW in a desert, which is the size of a
large LUZ solar thermal plant or a typical small fossil fuel plant. I presume
labor costs would be reduced because you would drive a truck between panel
arrays and spray Windex automatically. Over the years you would end up dumping
many truckloads of chemicals into the fragile desert ecology. You would also
be taking water out of local wells or transporting it long distances, to mix
with the detergent. This is a bad idea in the desert, and it takes a lot of
energy.

There are good reasons why solar PV, solar thermal and wind have not swept the
market and put fossil fuels out of business. Remi Cornwall suggested OTEC
("convert dat ocean heat direct into electricity!") That has severe
limitations. It is only effective in tropical locations near the ocean, it has
many technical, cost, and maintenance problems, and I fear that on a large
scale it might cause tremendous damage to the ecology, especially coral reef
ecology, which is already threatened worldwide. I would only advocate OTEC for
small, isolated island generators. See J. E. Cavanagh et al., "Ocean Energy
Systems," Renewable Energy, (Island Press, 1993), p. 513.

- Jed


[* FOOTNOTE *] "Winter and foul weather" brings to mind the wedding blessing
in the last act of "As You Like It":

     You and you are sure together,
     As the winter to foul weather.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 10:53:51 1998
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Check out this site for info on amorphous silicon cells, solar
shingles made from them, also panels...the info you have on 
this type of cell is presently incorrect....ie:  degradation/
cost....might have been true in the past....steve opelc

http://ovonic.com/


Don Powell wrote:
> 
> I was not sure if I was reading an email from the Alternative Energy list,
> Hydrogen List of Vortex.  But I knew it could not possibly from The AE
> group.
> 
> 1st off there are thousands of homes using solar power (not just vacation
> homes) as their only source of power or as a combination with wind/water
> power.  These panels last over 20 years with about a 5% degradation.  The
> Carrera Power plant in CA has been operating for over 20 years and they sell
> their old panels to the public with a warranty that they will not be less
> that 10% of the rated power.
> 
> 2nd Why in the world would you pay high dollar for amorphous silicon?  Those
> are primarily for low light conditions and are not at all like the
> crystalline used by home owners and the power companies.  If you got a good
> deal on them then I could understand but I am not aware of any research done
> using amorphous silicon for outside uses.
> 
> 3rd as far as the dirt goes, solar panels operate best with a 30-45 degree
> tilt due to the position of the sun to
> your area.  This allows a significant "runoff" capability which, as long as
> it rains occasionally, will keep the panels clean enough for operation.  In
> both CA and Texas there are anywhere from 30% to 50% of the Department of
> Transportation road signs using solar instead of the generator based.  I
> can't tell you the last time I saw a school zone warning lights that were
> NOT solar driven.
> 
> I realize that vortex is for the "out there on the edge" type of technology
> discussions.  That is why I am part of it.  However please get a
> subscription to "Home Power" PO Box 520 Ashland OR 97520 $22.50 for a six
> issue yearly subscription, or at least subscribe to the Alternative Energy
> email list at LISTSERV SJSUVM1.SJSU.EDU if you are serious about using
> alternative power in a useful sense.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:72240.1256 compuserve.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 06, 1998 3:36 PM
> > To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
> > Subject: Re: Solar Cell Degradation
> >
> >
> > To: Vortex
> >
> > Rob King writes:
> >
> >      I bought 100 6 inch square amorphous silicon solar cells
> > with the plan
> >      of putting them onto my roof when I read to my horror
> > that you can
> >      expect the cells output to fall by up 50% in one year.
> >
> > 50% sounds too high. Where did you read that, Rob? The
> > literature I have seen
> > describes at 10% to 20% decline. The warranty for the cell
> > should spell this
> > out, but then again, the warranty is probably wrong according
> > to Thomas and
> > Post at Sandia National Laboratory. So we're back to square one.
> >
> >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 11:13:10 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From: Steve <darklord darknet.net>
To: Freenrg-l <freenrg-l eskimo.com>; Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Friday, August 07, 1998 10:39 AM
Subject: "Centrifugally Launched Ball Bearings Could Propel Spacecraft"

PEA GRAVEL is a LOT CHEAPER!    :-)

Frederick


>http://www.pufori.org/news/nws0805983.htm
>
>ttyl
>-Steve
>-- 
>     darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616    
>   DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net
>Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 11:22:03 1998
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Maybe you can shed some light on this:

While browsing the NASA web pages for their Breakthrough Propulsion
Physics project, I came across and interesting line under the
"Experiments" section of this page:
http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/html/warp/possible.htm

The line reads: "1995; Schlicher: Evidence for thrusting using
"Unsymmetrical Magnetic Induction Fields" (unconfirmed)."

Anyone know anything about this?

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 12:05:56 1998
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
(snip many PV downer points)
 
 Over the years you would end up dumping
> many truckloads of chemicals into the fragile desert ecology. You would also
> be taking water out of local wells or transporting it long distances, to mix
> with the detergent. This is a bad idea in the desert, and it takes a lot of
> energy.

Yeh, Jed, you could almost be talking about Las Vegas!  (Don't get mad,
Vince.)

OK, there you go, Windexing on my parade. :-)

> There are good reasons why solar PV, solar thermal and wind have not swept the
> market and put fossil fuels out of business. Remi Cornwall suggested OTEC

I might suggest OPEC!  :-)

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 12:32:48 1998
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Subject: [OFF TOPIC] From an old programmer
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To: Vortex

Here are some nice comments from a letter in the July 1998 issue of Byte
magazine. This reminds me of my late friend Chris Tinsley . . .

     As much as I enjoy my PCs, I often have the impression that they and
     their operating systems were designed by young people who somehow missed
     out on the entire history of computing technology. One example: Under
     MVS we had a system catalog, a central repository of every file and name
     . . .

     Now move a file on the PC. You get a little flashlight on the screen and
     that sinking feeling. . . . If the "catalog" isn't in your head [or on
     paper] you have a problem. PCs are useful, but you have to be under 30
     years of age to be really impressed.

     - Garth Klatt 73642.1260 compuserve.com

I can list a dozen features in the Data General minicomputers circa 1977
missing from today's PCs. When IBM was designing the PC they went searching
for an operating system and ended up at Microsoft, which sold them QDOS, which
Bill Gates purchased for the occasion in a big fat hurry for $50,000 from
Seattle Computer Products. I read somewhere that During the hunt for an OS,
IBM evaluated Data General's RDOS. Oh I wish they had selected it! That
decision would have saved the human race untold billions of dollars, wasted
time and programming screw-ups.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 12:35:22 1998
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:52:24 -0700
From: Al Fogelman <fogelman mscomm.com>
To: Jim O <jimostr ctainforms.com>
Subject: Try This

Bill Gates
wanted to look good and impress everyone with his success. He
decided to measure Microsoft's accomplishments against General Motors.

His comparison went like this: If the automotive technology had kept pace
with computer technology over the past few decades, you would now be driving
a V-32 instead of a V8, and it would have a top speed of 100,000 miles per
hour (160,000 km/hr). Or you could have an economy car that weighs 30 pounds
(14 kilos) and gets 1,000 miles/1.6K kilometers to the imperial gallon of
gasoline. In either case, the price of the new car would be less than
$50.00.

In response to Gates goading, a GM spokesman said: "Yes, but would you
really want to drive a car that crashes 4 times a day? GM said that if
Microsoft built cars:
1. Every time they repainted the lines on the road, you'd have to buy a new
car.
2. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason, and you'd
have to restart it. For some strange reason, you'd just accept this and
drive on.
3. Occasionally, your car would stop and fail to restart, and you'd have to
reinstall the engine. For some reason, you'd just have to accept this too.
4. You could only have one person in the car at a time, unless you bought a
Car95 or CarNT. But then you'd have to buy more seats.
5. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was twice as
fast, twice as easy to drive, but would only run on 5 percent of the roads.
6. Macintosh car owners would get expensive Microsoft upgrades to their
cars, which would make their cars run much slower.
7. The oil, engine, gas, and alternator warning lights would be replaced by
a single "general car fault" warning light.
8. The airbag system would ask, "Are you sure?" before going off.
9. If you were involved in a crash, you would have no idea what =
happened.






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 13:17:36 1998
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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: OTEC versus OPEC
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To: Vortex

I said, "there are good reasons why solar PV, solar thermal and wind have not
swept the  market and put fossil fuels out of business." I mentioned OTEC
(ocean thermal energy conversion). Frank Stenger rhymed:

     I might suggest OPEC!  :-)

OPEC is on our side. They do not mean to be, but they are. OPEC has done more
than any other organization to promote alternative energy, cold fusion and
energy conservation. Unfortunately, OPEC is in disarray and unable to enforce
high oil prices. If they had their way oil would cost $40 per barrel and
billions of dollars would be pouring into alternatives like PVs and CF. It is
a shame the fossil fuel energy crisis ended abruptly before alternative energy
caught on. The Saudis, who understand economics better than other members of
OPEC, worked diligently to undermine the coalition and knock the price back
down to $12 - $18 per barrel, which is the cheapest it has ever been in
history. That's only natural. To survive in a market you must keep lowering
prices, year after year, until a cheaper alternative finally clobbers you. As
far as I know, no commodity has ever grown more expensive over time. (Where
cost is measured in the number of hours of labor it takes to purchase a given
amount of the commodity.) To my knowledge, only one major old technology was
eliminated because of diminished resources: wooden structures in Europe were
largely replaced by stone and later concrete and steel. In other cases old
technology was superceded by something better long before resources ran out.
We did not give up horses because we ran out of hay. Cars are more convenient,
faster, safer and less polluting than horses. Whales were still plentiful when
the first oil wells were dug in Pennsylvania. Of course, we *would have* run
out of whales! We will run out of everything if we cease innovating and stop
doing science.

The human race has never run out of anything, or run short of anything, except
when we deliberately squandered and wiped out resources, like the fish in the
Grand Banks. That's a result of the "tragedy of the commons" economics, in
which people go out of their way to impoverish themselves. Given the available
resources in the solar system, a real shortage of energy or materials or food
or anything else is unthinkable, unless the population grows a hundred or
thousand times larger and lives exclusively on Earth. We have only man-made
shortages, like the famines in Africa and the senseless destruction of the
Grand Banks ecology.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 13:47:38 1998
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From: Puthoff aol.com
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In a message dated 8/7/98 2:18:03 PM, you wrote:

<<As
far as I know, no commodity has ever grown more expensive over time. >>

Postage stamps!  Actually, I'm serious.  I saw an analysis that covered almost
every endeavor of production in our country, and only postage stamps stood out
as going in the wrong direction.

Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 14:13:48 1998
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    At 03:27 PM 8/7/98 -0400, Jed wrote:

>I can list a dozen features in the Data General minicomputers circa 1977
>missing from today's PCs. When IBM was designing the PC they went searching
>for an operating system and ended up at Microsoft, which sold them QDOS,
which
>Bill Gates purchased for the occasion in a big fat hurry for $50,000 from
>Seattle Computer Products. I read somewhere that During the hunt for an OS,
>IBM evaluated Data General's RDOS. Oh I wish they had selected it! That
>decision would have saved the human race untold billions of dollars, wasted
>time and programming screw-ups.



   They should have adopted AMIGA's AMIGAdos.

   Imagine.   one program..   one file.   




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 14:54:48 1998
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Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 16:55:34 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Unsymmetrical magnetic induction field thrusting?
In-Reply-To: <35CB612F.3939 sunherald.infi.net>
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At 13:18 8/7/98 -0700, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

>The line reads: "1995; Schlicher: Evidence for thrusting using
>"Unsymmetrical Magnetic Induction Fields" (unconfirmed)."
>
>Anyone know anything about this?

Yes, Schicher has patented this device, "Nonlinear Electromagnetic
Propulsion System and Method", Sep 1, 1992 Pat. No. 5,142,861

I don't understand how it's supposed to work yet.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 15:59:03 1998
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From: mindtech nor.com.au
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Odd coil geometry
In-Reply-To: <35C99AC5.BEEB8C99 verisoft.com.tr>
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This is alot like Hooper's hairpin windings he used to create "motional" E
fields, i.e. the absence of a B vector through cancellation.

Peter Nielsen



>                                    //| 
>                                   // | 
>                                  //  | 
>                     lead        //   |
>                       ---------//|   |
>                               //||   |
>                              //|||   | 
>                             //||||   | 
>                            //|||||   | 
>                           //||||||   |
>                          //|||||||   | 
>                         //||||||||   |
>                        //|||||||||   |
>                       //||||||||||   |
>                      //|||||||||||  /
>                     //|||||||||||| / 
>                    //|||||||||||||/
>                   //|||||||||||||/
>                  //|||||||||||||/
>                 //|||||||||||||/
>                //|||||||||||||/
>               //|||||||||||||/
>              //|||||||||||||/
>  lead       //|||||||||||||/
>     -------//|||||||||||||/
>           // ||||||||||||/
>          //  |||||||||||/ windings
>         //   ||||||||||/   
>        //    |||||||||/
>       //     ||||||||/
>      ||      |||||||/
>      ||      ||||||/
>      ||      |||||/
>      ||      ||||/
>      ||      |||/
>      ||      ||/
>      ||      |/
>      ||      /
>      ||     /
>      ||    /
>      ||   /  <- plastic sheet form extension
>      ||  /
>      || /
>      ||/
>
>Realistic view.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>hamdi ucar
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 16:22:09 1998
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From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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mindtech nor.com.au wrote:
> 
> This is alot like Hooper's hairpin windings he used to create "motional" E
> fields, i.e. the absence of a B vector through cancellation.
> 
> Peter Nielsen
> 

Hi Peter, 
Could you send me web links about Hooper( including patent numbers if there are) if you have it.

BTW, this flat coil have a significant magnetic field around, may to increased currents compensating its low inductance.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 16:22:17 1998
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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In a message dated 98-08-07 15:04:52 EDT, you write:

  <<snip>>

> Yeh, Jed, you could almost be talking about Las Vegas!  (Don't get mad,
>  Vince.)
>  
>  OK, there you go, Windexing on my parade. :-)
>  
  <<snip>>

>  Frank Stenger

I don't see a problem. The Windex is pretty tame, a little detergent and
ammonia which would probably do good as a fertilizer. Tame stuff if you
consider all the nuke stuff in the ground (and peoples attics) near here.

The EPA came down on the city administration a couple of years ago for
(of all things) dust pollution!  Some wag suggested that the way to fix that
was to pave over the desert!  I loved the expression on Mr. EPA's face at that
suggestion (thoughtful).

Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas Nevada

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Subject: Try This (fwd)
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To: Vortex

Jim Ostrowski copied an amusing comparison between the auto industry and the
computer industry, with statements like this:

In response to Gates goading, a GM spokesman said: "Yes, but would you really
want to drive a car that crashes 4 times a day? GM said that if Microsoft
built cars:

1. Every time they repainted the lines on the road, you'd have to buy a new
car.

2. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason, and you'd
have to restart it. For some strange reason, you'd just accept this and drive
on.

3. Occasionally, your car would stop and fail to restart, and you'd have to
reinstall the engine. For some reason, you'd just have to accept this
too . . .


To be fair to the computer industry, let me point out few things about
automobiles we may have forgotten. Go back to 1920s, when my mother was
learning to drive the family car in New York City. This was thirty years after
the automobile era began. My mother was still a child, she could barely reach
the pedals, but it did not matter much because the accelerator was on the
steering column. Her father let her drive the car for the same reason many
parents let their kids handle the family computer today: kids are better at
dealing with new technology. After she mastered it he never bothered to drive
again. Policemen in that era did not care who drove the family car.

I mentioned that the accelerator was on the steering column. Actually, I
expect it was the spark advance, but my mother would never have learned the
difference. She drove by instinct, the way kids operate computers. The other
controls, of which there were many, were scattered more or less at random,
often in the worst places. Like the infamous QWERTY keyboard, this machine was
seemingly designed to trip up the user. Every time you bought new car, the
controls were different, and you had to learn how to operate it all over
again. As a result, by the time my mother went to college she "could drive
anything with wheels."

Not occasionally, but *frequently* the car would die on the street for no
reason, and you'd have to restart it. For obvious reasons, you'd just accept
this and drive on. You don't know the obvious reasons?!? Put yourself in my
mother's shoes. Cars, despite their foibles, were a heck of a lot less trouble
then horses, and more fun too. Around 1920 I believe it was, a social
scientist visiting a farm noted that the family had no bathtub but they did
own a Flivver (Model T). He asked the housewife about this, and she gasped:
"Why, you can't go to town in a bathtub!" -- the marching song of the
automotive era. (Okay, I copped that from Allen's "The Big Change".) In the
early days enthusiasts *enjoyed* toying with their cars, like computer hackers
did in 1980. They had a song about "you have to get out, get out, and get
under." That meant crawling under a car on a dirt road in the mud and horse
manure. Imagine singing a ditty about that!

Often your car would stop and fail to restart, and you'd have to reinstall
parts of the engine, put an emergency patch on the radiator, change the tire,
or have someone step out in the rain and crank the motor again. Yes, I do mean
crank -- a dangerous and dirty job that killed many people before the
automatic starter became universal. You'd just have to accept this too,
because cars beat walking, and it took many decades for the automotive
industry to devise the clever gadgets the eliminated most of these problems.


See? Our ancestors once put up with the same kind of nonsense from cars that
we now put up from computers, for the same reasons. Computer makers do the
best they can, but the machines are still primitive, like Model T Fords. And
80 years from now, when cars are powered by cold fusion, or 200 years when
they fly automatically to any destination on earth by voice command, people
will be amazed that we put up with the filthy, inconvenient, polluting,
brainless monster cars of the late 20th century.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 16:43:34 1998
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Isn't the commodity you are measuring, when you measure stamps, really
the government ??.....<g>.....steve opelc

Puthoff aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 8/7/98 2:18:03 PM, you wrote:
> 
> <<As
> far as I know, no commodity has ever grown more expensive over time. >>
> 
> Postage stamps!  Actually, I'm serious.  I saw an analysis that covered almost
> every endeavor of production in our country, and only postage stamps stood out
> as going in the wrong direction.
> 
> Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 17:11:30 1998
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Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 19:08:41 -0700
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Scott Little wrote:
> 
> At 13:18 8/7/98 -0700, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
> 
> >The line reads: "1995; Schlicher: Evidence for thrusting using
> >"Unsymmetrical Magnetic Induction Fields" (unconfirmed)."

> Yes, Schicher has patented this device, "Nonlinear Electromagnetic
> Propulsion System and Method", Sep 1, 1992 Pat. No. 5,142,861
> 
> I don't understand how it's supposed to work yet.

Looks to me like a radio wave thruster. Doesn't look like it would
produce any anomalous thrust. In order to do that, it is thought you
would need a gradient of some kind. (gravitational, maybe magnetic) I
suspect that for an electromagnetic thruster to produce propellantless
thrust, some special reaction would be needed.

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 18:18:04 1998
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To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re; Phase Velocity, The Guillotine Effect and Shear Nonsense
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A paper cutting shear 137 cm wide with a blade
with an angle such that when the heel is touching the paper and the other
edge is 1.0 cm
above the paper (0.4181 degrees) is dropped one cm at a rate of one
cm/second.

The paper is cut at a rate of 137 cm/sec!

By no strange coincidence for Spin of the Electron (or other particles) mvr
= hbar and
 v = 137*c, the Phase Velocity of the Particle-Wave. :-)

Is the Cutting Edge of Physics based on
paperwork?

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 18:44:52 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: H2 Glow discharge with a K electrode
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 01:43:00 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35d0aaae.392190207 mail-hub>
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On Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:10:14 EDT, VCockeram aol.com wrote:
[snip]
>I'm not sure I'm qualified to do calorimetry Robin. No, thats wrong, I _am_
>sure I am not qualified!

Nevertheless, you will do it shortly.
[snip]
>
>Why Mo++ ?  Keep answer simple, I'm not a chemist but am curious. <g>
[snip]
The third ionisation energy of Molybdenum (i.e. Mo++ -> Mo+++) is
27.16 eV. This is very close indeed to the 27.197 eV required by Mills
to form his Hydrinos. As is the 31.625-4.3407=27.284 eV difference for
potassium. (In fact it's even closer than potassium, so you might
actually get better results).

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 18:47:36 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Odd coil, intuition, mechanisms, science
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 01:47:18 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:36:28 +0100 (BST), Remi Cornwall wrote:
[snip]
>(Personal viewpoint, cf won't be used for energy production in the long 
>run, difficult, messy, temperamental. Its future is RAD waste ameliroation.)
[snip]
My personal viewpoint is that it will be combined with Bruce
Perrault's idea and incorporated in a fuel cell, thus producing
electricity almost directly.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 19:55:36 1998
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	Dear Rick and Vo.,

	... once the signal is steady... say between two helicals ... 
then YES... you can 'tap out Morse'... at superlumal.


On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Hank -
> 
>  > since the phase waves are infinite and monotonous,
>  > no message can be attached to the beam and sent FTL.
> 
> I don't understand that. If a change in phase is indeed propagated >c, I
> don't understand why you couldn't 'tap' out phase changes in morse code at
> the source, and see those phase changes at the receiver (more specifically
> the time delays between them) as carrying intelligent signal. That sentence
> above seems to be saying to me that phase changes can't be detected, or
> they can't be separated discretely in time or something.
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
> 
> CC: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
> 
> 
> 

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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Light Pulse experiment re-post
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 02:55:27 GMT
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References: <3.0.1.32.19980805105126.00c786e0 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980804171504.00c67af0@spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980803182722.00cd7c30@spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980803182722.00cd7c30@spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980804171504.00c67a

f0 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980805105126.00c786e0@spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980806111047.00c9cde0@spectre.mitre.org>
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On Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:10:47 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote:

>At 12:19 AM 8/6/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>>The "FTL" result, appears to be based on the assumption that the
>>slower signal travelled at c. I'm questioning that assumption.
>
>    This is called a strawman argument.  You set up a strawman, then knock
>it down.  

It wasn't intended as such. It was a genuine reflection of what I
thought might be a problem, based on my limited understanding of the
actual setup.

>No one asserted that the "slower" signal travelled at c, in fact,
>the way these experiments are normally run, it will travel at 2/3 to 3/4 of
>c  (Coaxial cable.)  You don't normally measure those delays directly, you
>just set things up so that the collection device, usually a storage scope,
>is equidistant from the two sampling points.  

Ok, so it has the in built assumption that the speed of transmission
of the signal through the coax will be independent of the orientation
of the coax. If there is anything to the aether theories, or even
frame dragging for that matter, then this may not be so.

>However, to eliminate a
>different sort of criticism, as I remember it Nimtz used two collectors
>with a syncronizing clock, the recorded signals were then correlated.  This

I suspect that with a clock, one is getting close to the theoretical
accuracy of the clock, for such small differences.

>allows you to configure the experiment such that superluminal signalling is
>the only possible explanation.  (Although I also would like to see a
>multiple gap device, to remove all doubt.)

Wouldn't a multiple gap device require intermediate amplification?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  7 21:54:55 1998
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John Schnurer wrote:
> 
>         Dear Rick and Vo.,
> 
>         ... once the signal is steady... say between two helicals ...
> then YES... you can 'tap out Morse'... at superlumal.

How could we test this with the delay between transmission and
reception, so that we know beyond all resonable doubt that this was
truly FTL transmission? We need to do that to confirm V>C propagation. I
can understand doing that with front velocity, but it sounds more
difficult for phase velocity.

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  8 00:30:39 1998
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In a message dated 98-08-07 21:43:41 EDT, you write:
> The third ionisation energy of Molybdenum (i.e. Mo++ -> Mo+++) is
>  27.16 eV. This is very close indeed to the 27.197 eV required by Mills
>  to form his Hydrinos. As is the 31.625-4.3407=27.284 eV difference for
>  potassium. (In fact it's even closer than potassium, so you might
>  actually get better results).
>  
>  Regards,
>  
>  Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

Very interesting Robin.  Thanks.

Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas Nevada

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  8 01:53:22 1998
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On Fri, 7 Aug 1998, Jed Rothwell:
     Hey, Don, I recently tried the product "Windex - Outdoor" on our home
     windows.  It worked pretty well for the effort involved.  Stuff like
     this (spray on, wait a few seconds, spray rinse, etc.) would seem to be
     a natural for automated cleaning of large solar arrays - yes?
>I am afraid this would not be economical in a central power generator or
>isolated highway emergency box.
 
-=Big Snip of lots of reasons why not!=-   good ones by the way! :)
------------------
Hi vorts,
  For some reason this brought to mind the 2 (two) MOST patented U.S.
'inventions' of all time... (hummm) anyway, i may be wrong but I think
they ARE the "ball-point pen" and a little wiper for rear-view mirrors on
a cars outside review mirror!
-----
These little "wiper(s)" -seem to emulate our eyelids for cleansing and
refreshing field of view...  Maybe they, (we) all know it's a pretty good
way to clean-off a field of reflection/vision??-.. auto-squeezies wipes..
-----
Drip & Dry & to all a clear view:)
steve (not the first to think of it :) ekwall

p.s.
Is rain-fall a cleanser in ITSELF??
see:non-desert, "tropical daily" wash area?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  8 02:24:45 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From: Kyle R. Mcallister <stk sunherald.infi.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Friday, August 07, 1998 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: FTL Communication

Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

>
>How could we test this with the delay between transmission and
>reception, so that we know beyond all reasonable doubt that this was
>truly FTL transmission? We need to do that to confirm V>C propagation. I
>can understand doing that with front velocity, but it sounds more
>difficult for phase velocity.

One classical diagram that illustrates that Intelligence can be observed
moving at >>c WITHOUT ENERGY MOVING >>c, is a wave approaching the shore at
an angle theta as thea goes to zero, Vp goes to infinity:

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\shore line
     \
      \angle theta
       \      /|
        \    / |
         \ v/  | v sin theta
          \/----->
           \
            \
        water wave front Vp = v/theta

c^2 = Vp*Vg, Vg = c^2/Vp, or Vp = c^2/Vg.

time = distance/(frequency*wavelength)indicates that the longer the
transmission line
or waveguide the more room one has for measuring the FTL Intelligence
transfer.

IOW, if you were standing at the "seashore" with a stopwatch you could
measure an FTL effect over a measured distance even though
energy is moving at less than c?

Looks like James O. and John Schnurer are on the right track.  This doesn't
seem to be counter-intuitive.

Regards,   Frederick


>
>Kyle R. Mcallister
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  8 07:15:20 1998
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Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 01:12:13 +1000 (EST)
From: Martin Sevior <msevior liszt.ph.unimelb.edu.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] From an old programmer
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On Fri, 7 Aug 1998, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> I can list a dozen features in the Data General minicomputers circa 1977
> missing from today's PCs. When IBM was designing the PC they went searching
> for an operating system and ended up at Microsoft, which sold them QDOS, which
> Bill Gates purchased for the occasion in a big fat hurry for $50,000 from
> Seattle Computer Products. I read somewhere that During the hunt for an OS,
> IBM evaluated Data General's RDOS. Oh I wish they had selected it! That
> decision would have saved the human race untold billions of dollars, wasted
> time and programming screw-ups.
> 

You're absolutely right about missing features Jed. However you shouldn't 
blame young programmers. You should blame Pointy Haired bosses and neophytes
who buy Windoze products coz every one else does. Luckily the young
programmers in the process of liberating us from MS. Linux has at 7.5 million
users already and is growing in excess of 100% per year. It is just a matter 
of time now.

Cheers

Martin

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  8 08:54:53 1998
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From: Edwin Strojny <estrojny freeway.net>
Subject: Re: Try This (fwd)
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At 05:58 PM 8/7/98 -0400, you wrote:
>To: Vortex
>
>Jim Ostrowski copied an amusing comparison between the auto industry and the
>computer industry, with statements like this:
>
>In response to Gates goading, a GM spokesman said: "Yes, but would you really
>want to drive a car that crashes 4 times a day? GM said that if Microsoft
>built cars:
>
>1. Every time they repainted the lines on the road, you'd have to buy a new
>car.
>
>2. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason, and you'd
>have to restart it. For some strange reason, you'd just accept this and drive
>on.
>
>3. Occasionally, your car would stop and fail to restart, and you'd have to
>reinstall the engine. For some reason, you'd just have to accept this
>too . . .
>
>
>To be fair to the computer industry, let me point out few things about
>automobiles we may have forgotten. Go back to 1920s, when my mother was
>learning to drive the family car in New York City. This was thirty years after
>the automobile era began. My mother was still a child, she could barely reach
>the pedals, but it did not matter much because the accelerator was on the
>steering column. Her father let her drive the car for the same reason many
>parents let their kids handle the family computer today: kids are better at
>dealing with new technology. After she mastered it he never bothered to drive
>again. Policemen in that era did not care who drove the family car.
>
>I mentioned that the accelerator was on the steering column. Actually, I
>expect it was the spark advance, but my mother would never have learned the
>difference. She drove by instinct, the way kids operate computers. The other
>controls, of which there were many, were scattered more or less at random,
>often in the worst places. Like the infamous QWERTY keyboard, this machine was
>seemingly designed to trip up the user. Every time you bought new car, the
>controls were different, and you had to learn how to operate it all over
>again. As a result, by the time my mother went to college she "could drive
>anything with wheels."
>
>Not occasionally, but *frequently* the car would die on the street for no
>reason, and you'd have to restart it. For obvious reasons, you'd just accept
>this and drive on. You don't know the obvious reasons?!? Put yourself in my
>mother's shoes. Cars, despite their foibles, were a heck of a lot less trouble
>then horses, and more fun too. Around 1920 I believe it was, a social
>scientist visiting a farm noted that the family had no bathtub but they did
>own a Flivver (Model T). He asked the housewife about this, and she gasped:
>"Why, you can't go to town in a bathtub!" -- the marching song of the
>automotive era. (Okay, I copped that from Allen's "The Big Change".) In the
>early days enthusiasts *enjoyed* toying with their cars, like computer hackers
>did in 1980. They had a song about "you have to get out, get out, and get
>under." That meant crawling under a car on a dirt road in the mud and horse
>manure. Imagine singing a ditty about that!
>
>Often your car would stop and fail to restart, and you'd have to reinstall
>parts of the engine, put an emergency patch on the radiator, change the tire,
>or have someone step out in the rain and crank the motor again. Yes, I do mean
>crank -- a dangerous and dirty job that killed many people before the
>automatic starter became universal. You'd just have to accept this too,
>because cars beat walking, and it took many decades for the automotive
>industry to devise the clever gadgets the eliminated most of these problems.
>
>
>See? Our ancestors once put up with the same kind of nonsense from cars that
>we now put up from computers, for the same reasons. Computer makers do the
>best they can, but the machines are still primitive, like Model T Fords. And
>80 years from now, when cars are powered by cold fusion, or 200 years when
>they fly automatically to any destination on earth by voice command, people
>will be amazed that we put up with the filthy, inconvenient, polluting,
>brainless monster cars of the late 20th century.
>
>- Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  8 11:48:05 1998
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Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 14:40:43 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: vorts at IECEC  33RD
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Vorts:


  Several vorts attended, the American Nuclear Society led,

33Rd Intersociety Eng. Conference on Energy Conversion [IECEC 33RD]

which was held in Colorado Springs under Pikes Peak and Cheyenne

Mountain.


     One session was devoted to cold fusion issues, and at least

two more were on innovative devices led by Pat Bailey.  Very 

interesting those sessions as well.


  George Miley's talk included additional points 

against impurities accounting for new elements detected following his

low energy nuclear reactions.


  Theoretical ideas included the possible fission role of complexes in 

the de novo generations of elements.


  There were business development discussions, including the point that

about 100 patents in cold fusion have reportedly been issued in Japan.


   More will be shortly available at the COLD FUSION TIMES

web site at http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html

 and much more in the upcoming issue as well, of course.


    Mitchell Swartz

<bigger>

</bigger>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  8 15:00:40 1998
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From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: FTL Communication
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Frederick -

   >  IOW, if you were standing at the "seashore"
   >  with a stopwatch you could measure an FTL
   >  effect over a measured distance even though
   >  energy is moving at less than c?

In Waikiki there is a sea wall that produces what I'm pretty sure are
supersonic (if not superluminal<g>) effects. There are some very startling
sounds at certain tides and swell angles that seem suspiciously like soft
sonic booms. The 'wave' front travelling sideways along the wall is clearly
in the right speed territory on these days. You can see this locatin in
real time at:

http://www.eng.hawaii.edu/~csp/Trafficam/waikiki.html

Anyway, I don't see how a manipulation at one end of the "sea wall" could,
at a propagation greater than c, affect the timing of wave reception at the
other end. Perhaps with EM instead of sea water and concrete it "just
does". Does it?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  8 16:32:11 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Saturday, August 08, 1998 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: FTL Communication

Rick wrote:


>Frederick -
>
>   >  IOW, if you were standing at the "seashore"
>   >  with a stopwatch you could measure an FTL
>   >  effect over a measured distance even though
>   >  energy is moving at less than c?
>
>In Waikiki there is a sea wall that produces what I'm pretty sure are
>supersonic (if not superluminal<g>) effects.

>There are some very startling
>sounds at certain tides and swell angles that seem suspiciously like soft
>sonic booms.


>The 'wave' front traveling sideways along the wall is clearly
>in the right speed territory on these days.

I don't see why not, Rick. The velocity ratio
is v/sin theta, ie., the angle the wave makes with the sea wall. at theta =
0.01 degrees the
wave velocity is multiplied by a factor of
5,730.  :-)

>You can see this locatin in
>real time at:
>
>http://www.eng.hawaii.edu/~csp/Trafficam/waikiki.html


I'm gonna check that out.

>
>Anyway, I don't see how a manipulation at one end of the "sea wall" could,
>at a propagation greater than c, affect the timing of wave reception at the
>other end.

Suppose nature altered the wave angle or frequency? Then there could be a
form of "coded intelligence" conveyed. But never at a rate faster than the
waves/swells can travel, even for a Tsunami traveling at 500 MPH,or laser
pulses or signal mirrors playing games on the Earth and being viewed on the
Moon.

>Perhaps with EM instead of sea water and concrete it "just
>does". Does it?

I think not. The phase velocity is real and calculable/measurable,but the
"modulation" and transmission of it over distance is limited by the energy
velocity of the carrier medium.

If Nimtz is decreasing the permittivity (eo) and/or the permeability of the
space in the waveguide experiments, then: c' = 1/(u'*e')^1/2
ie., c' is greater than c.

Like the Casimir Plates where c' is greater than c (between the plates) this
makes things
interesting by implying that a certain energy density causes an increase in
lightspeed.

An experiment as simple as measuring c down through an energized coil, or
solenoid might
do it.

Regards,   Frederick
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  8 16:55:24 1998
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Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 13:53:23 -1000
To: Vortex-L <vortex-l eskimo.com>
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Woodward theory & Roadrunner physics
Resent-Message-ID: <"gDcno1.0.Ca4.sKEpr" mx1>
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Just saw on Pete Skeggs' site http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/gravity.html
where David Cyganski has refuted Woodward's antigravity pulsating capacitor
experiment with a derivative experiment. In this one the Transient Mass
Fluctuations (TMFs) are assumed to produce a vibration in the dielectric
that might be sensed on a simple pulsing capacitor without having to jiggle
it up and down in the correct phase with a piezo driver as Woodward does in
order to amplify the effect. The thing supposedly just gets heavier and
lighter in response to microsecond range charge/discharge cycles.

Well, I've seen enough Roadrunner cartoons to know that when Wile E. Coyote
runs off the edge of a cliff, he hangs there long enough to contemplate his
fate and flash the audience his trademark look of frustration and
resignation before heading off to kiss arroyo at terminal velocity.

I just don't get it that a slight percentage change in force acting for
such a short time would produce enough displacement of a mass to show up as
a detectable vibration. It's the hang time that Wile gets. Remember, it's
the *whole mass* supposedly changing pretty much all at once - it's not
like a fast moving insect wing or piezo driver or something beating on one
end of a rigid object and sending sound waves through it. There's also the
rise and fall time to soften the effect. So how far would a coyote or a
capacitor really fall in a microsecond?

d = 1/2at^2

d = 0.5 * 9.8m/s * 0.000001s * 0.000001s

d = 4.9e-12 meters.

So there's a mass potentially bouncing at 4.9e-12 meters of amplitude at
one megahertz, presumably against a piezo sensor. Maybe a laser system off
a mirror could phase detect the movement? Against background noise? With a
1mhz signal slapping the capacitor around with inherent electrostatic,
piezo, and thermal activity at the same frequence you want to detect?
Cyganski's a scientist, and I'm not. He offers what looks like a good
argument for some experimental error on Woodward's part, and also admits
his scheme may not produce detectable signal. But I don't think his
experiment has what it takes to catch Woodward's roadrunner. I have also
heard Woodward has improved his apparatus over the published versions, and
continues to get higher magnitude positive results.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  8 17:15:25 1998
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From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: FTL Communication
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Frederick -

   >  Like the Casimir Plates where c' is greater
   >  than c (between the plates) this makes things
   >  interesting by implying that a certain energy
   >  density causes an increase in lightspeed.
   >
   >  An experiment as simple as measuring c down
   >  through an energized coil, or solenoid might do
   >  it.

This also reminds me of the Woodward theory, which, as I'm sure you can
tell, I find pretty fascinating. Things must then weigh less (less mass)
between Casimir plates? The c^2 term in M = E/c^2 gets larger, so mass is
less. Impulse drive: spin a disc with 1/2 its area between plates - the
opposite side is continually more massive, so it pulls that way. If
gazillions of these could be constructed with nanotech, you could mold them
into threads for clothing, or pigment particles for Cavorite paint. Up up
and away...

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  8 17:34:55 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: CF isotopes hypothesis
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 00:34:52 GMT
Organization: Improving
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I suspect that in the case of CF using D, the main reaction is
D+D->He4. When H is involved, the main reaction is H + M -> lots of
stuff, some of which occasionally results from fission of the new
nucleus.
The Chubbs came up with the rule boson in, boson out. I would like to
expand that to boson out, irrespective of what goes in.
The implication here is that H may preferentially react with isotopes
that have non-integer spins, such that the resultant nucleus becomes a
boson.
What is the driving force behind this reaction?
When phonons (bosons) condense into a BEC, they it presents a problem
for any nuclei that are fermions, because they would be forced into a
single energy state. Perhaps they fuse, forming bosons as a way out of
this dilemma.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  8 17:40:25 1998
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Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 20:33:07 -0400
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: CF isotopes hypothesis
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At 12:34 AM 8/9/98 GMT, Robin wrote:
>I suspect that in the case of CF using D, the main reaction is
>D+D->He4. When H is involved, the main reaction is H + M -> lots of
>stuff, some of which occasionally results from fission of the new
>nucleus.

  Yes.

  H+H may make D. The final product(s) on nickel need
to be discerned.

  Mitchell Swartz





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  8 18:44:48 1998
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Subject: Re: FTL Communication
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-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Saturday, August 08, 1998 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: FTL Communication


Rick wrote:
>
>This also reminds me of the Woodward theory, which, as I'm sure you can
>tell, I find pretty fascinating. Things must then weigh less (less mass)
>between Casimir plates? The c^2 term in M = E/c^2 gets larger, so mass is
>less.

Yes,if c increases by a factor of 10, then
mass must decrease by a factor of 100.

With conservation of momentum mc you're going to accelerate like Gangbusters
when you hit
the Warp Switch!

>
>Impulse drive: spin a disc with 1/2 its area between plates - the
>opposite side is continually more massive, so it pulls that way. If
>gazillions of these could be constructed with nanotech, you could mold them
>into threads for clothing, or pigment particles for Cavorite paint. Up up
>and away...

Too complicated,try standing inside a two meter high, one meter diameter
Pulsed R.F. coil, set to "Broil", but be sure to wear one of those shiny
metallic space suits that the E.T.s wear.

Regards,    Frederick
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI
>
>
>

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From: mjones jump.net (Mitchell Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower,sci.energy,sci.energy.hydrogen,sci.physics.fusion,sci.engr,sci.physics
Subject: Over Unity Cold Fusion Experiment
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 02:56:45 -0600
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As I mentioned in an earlier post, until fairly recently the Pons and
Fleischmann type of "cold fusion" cells have been plagued with
inconsistency. However, for those who are interested, there is an article
in the most recent issue of *Infinite Energy* [P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH
03302; six issues per year; $29.95 per  year in U.S. and Canada;
www.infinite-energy.com] describing a variant of the Pons-Fleischmann
setup which is suitable for construction as  a home electronics project,
provided that you are sufficiently versed in electronics to avoid the
known hazards of working with a 200 volt DC power supply. And here is the
neat part: this experiment is consistently replicable, allowing virtually
everyone to get "over unity" results. Or so it is claimed. Here is the
gist of the setup:

(1) Materials required: one stopwatch; one 250 ml pyrex beaker; one
standard alcohol or mercury lab thermometer scaled from -20 to +150
degrees C; small lab platform balance capable of accurate measurements in
the range from 0 to 1000 grams; insulating pad suitable for supporting hot
materials (up to 150 degrees C) being weighed on the platform balance; 500
grams of K2CO3 (potassium carbonate) in powdered form; 30 cm of .5 mm 
diameter platinum wire; two small pieces of foil, each 2 mm x 5 mm, one
made of platinum and one of tungsten (a .75 cm long piece of tungsten
welding rod, 1/16 inch diameter, may be substituted for the tungsten
foil); a variable voltage DC power supply, capable of values ranging from
20 volts to 200 volts at 5 amps.

(2) Construction: 

(a) Cut the 30 cm platinum wire into two 15 cm lengths. 

(b) Attach the Pt foil to one end of one of the Pt wires by piercing and
crimping. That is your anode. 

(c) Attach the tungsten foil to one end of the other Pt wire by piercing
and crimping. That is your cathode. (If instead of the foil you use a
piece of tungsten welding rod, you will have to be very careful to wrap
and crimp tightly, so that the tungsten will not be dislodged by the
violent reaction.) 

(d) Make up a .5 molar potassium carbonate solution, by placing 69.1 grams
of K2CO3 powder in a clean glass container, and adding enough distilled
water to bring the final volume up to 1 liter. 

(e) Fill your 250 ml beaker with about 200 ml of the .5 Molar potassium
carbonate solution. 

(f) Cut a rectangular piece of plexiglass or some similar flat plastic
(e.g., lexan) that is long enough to bridge across the top of your beaker,
but narrow enough to vent steam at the sides. Drill three holes through it
in a line, so that the outermost holes (for the anode and cathode leads)
will be the same distance from the walls of the beakers as from the
central hole (which will be used to suspend the thermometer). 

(g) Suspend the anode and cathode leads and the thermometer in the
electrolyte. The anode and cathode should be suspended about halfway from
the top of the electrolyte to the bottom of the beaker, and the bulb of
the thermometer should be about a fourth of the way from the bottom. 

(h) Attach the Pt lead from the anode to the positive terminal from your
power supply, and attach the Pt lead from the cathode to the negative
terminal. 

(3) Experimental Procedure: 

(a) Warmup Phase: Place the insulating pad on the platform balance, and
place the beaker and attached materials on it. Turn the system on and ramp
up the voltage gradually, starting at about 20 volts, until the
electrolyte temperature reaches about 80 degrees C. At that point, jump
the voltage up to 120 and begin to move in gradual increments toward 180
volts. At some point, you will begin to see a violet glow from the
cathode, accompanied with the sounds of boiling water. 

(b) Steam Phase: At this point the current will drop into the range from
.2 to .4 amps, due to formation of a boundary layer of steam around the
cathode, with consequent increase in resistance to current flow. This will
bring the solution very quickly to whatever its boiling point is at your
local altitude, which will probably be a bit less than 100 degrees C.
Weigh the material on the platform balance at this point, with the
apparatus running, jot down the weight, and start your stopwatch. Note the
voltage and the amperage at this time, jot them down, and continue to
monitor them periodically for consistency. (They should stabilize in a
very narrow range.) Allow the apparatus to continue boiling until
approximately 125 ml has boiled off, and weigh again (while the apparatus
is running), jotting down the weight and stopping your stopwatch. Verify
that the voltage and amperage have held steady. Turn the apparatus off. 

(4) Calorimetry: Subtract the final weight from the initial weight to
determine the weight in grams of the water that was boiled off. Multiply
that weight by the heat of vaporization of water, which will be about 2260
joules/gm at these near-boiling temperatures. Divide the result by the
number of seconds elapsed on your stopwatch to get the average power
output in joules/sec (watts). For power in, simply multiply the average
amps drawn by the apparatus between weighings times the average voltage.
The Coefficient of Performance is then obtained by dividing the power out
by the power in. For example, suppose that you boiled off 100 gms of water
in a period of 50 minutes (3000 sec). In that case, Power out  =
[(2260)(100)]/3000 = 75.3 joules/sec = 75.3 watts. If you  averaged .3
amps at 160 volts, then power in = 48 watts, and the COP = (75.3)/48 =
1.57, which is apparently about average for this setup, according to the
*Infinite Energy* article from which this information was obtained.

(5) Analysis: 

(a) Assuming that this experiment is *not* over unity, then how are we to
explain the difference between the behavior of the anode and the cathode?
I am at a loss to explain, for example, why the tungsten heats up as much
as it does. The resistivity of platinum at these temperatures, for
example, appears to be higher than that of tungsten. At 1200 degrees C,
for example, the resistivity of platinum is 52.7 ohm-cm, while that of
tungsten is about 40 ohm-cm. Thus there would be a bit more current flow
through the tungsten branch of a parallel circuit than through the
platinum branch, but since the platinum sources the full load, I fail to
see how the tungsten could wind up being hotter than the platinum. Even if
we assume that *all* of the electron current exits the cathode through the
tungsten, how does that wind up producing this kind of differential
heating? If the entire electron current of, say .3 amps, passes through
the platinum lead (which is .05 cm in diameter) and exits through the
tungsten welding rod (which is 1/16 in or .159 cm in diameter) then by
what principle of physics does the tungsten heat up, begin to produce a
violet glow, and cloak itself behind a boundary layer of steam? The
tungsten has a larger cross sectional area to dissipate heat, and also a
lower resistivity, than any comparable length of the platinum. Perhaps
someone better versed in electronics than I (are you listening, Don
Lancaster?) can explain this to me. The way I see it, if .3 amps flows
through a platinum wire of diameter .05 cm and a resistivity of 53 ohm-cm,
thence across a tungsten wire of diameter .159 cm and a resistivity of 40
ohm-cm, how does the tungsten portion of the circuit get hotter than the
platinum portion? The last I heard, resistance was directly proportional
to resistivity, inversely proportional to cross-sectional area, and
directly proportional to length. By this standard, a given length of
platinum wire ought to get hotter than the same length of tungsten wire,
right? What am I missing?

(b) A major question that I have about this design concerns the
possibility of current spikes due to steam explosions at the cathode,
which might cause rapid fluctuations in resistance and, thus, current
flow. These spikes, if rapid enough, would not show up on the instruments,
and thus could permit unmetered power consumption that could show up as
excess heat. The crackling and popping sounds from the cathode, as
reported in the infinite energy article, suggest that this is a very real
possibility, but I will have to do the experiment and see, before deciding
how serious this objection really is. If, as I suspect, it is a concern
that will have to be addressed, then continuous and highly accurate
computerized sampling of current and voltage levels would be one way to
get accurate power-in readings. Another way would be to switch over to
flow calorimetry--which means: pump the electrolyte in a circle, with a
radiator in the loop to dissipate the heat. If the flow were fast enough,
the cathode could be kept cool enough to avoid producing its boundary
layer of steam, and the cause of the putative current spikes would be
removed.                 

(6) Notes: 

(a) I should point out that the *Infinite Energy* article was unclear
about the molarity of the potassium carbonate solution. At several points,
the author (Eugene Mallove) referred to the solution as being .5 molar,
but at another point he said that it was prepared by dissolving 138.2 gms
of K2CO3 in distilled water to produce a final volume of 1 liter. The
latter, of course, would be a 1 molar solution, not a .5 molar solution. 
(The average molecular weights of K, C, and O, respectively, are 39.096,
12.01, and 16. Thus a gram molecular weight (mole) of K2CO3 is
[2x(39.096)] + 12.01 + 3(16) = 138.202 gms, and, to produce a .5 molar
solution, we would dissolve .5(138.2) = 69.1 gms of K2CO3 in enough
distilled water to produce a liter of solute.) Hence in the instructions,
above, I have assumed that Gene's repeated statements that the solution is
.5 molar were correct. However, if you do the experiment and the .5 molar
solution doesn't work, then try the 1 molar solution instead. 

(b) I deviated from the *Infinite Energy* article by prescribing that the
beaker should be on the platform balance when the experiment is done, and
should be weighed while the experiment is running. The reason: the
tungsten in the cathode, according to the article, shows signs of melting
at the end of some runs. Since Tungsten melts at 3370 degrees C, some heat
could be stored in the tungsten during the early phase of the experiment,
when the solution is brought to a boil. The amount of heat stored, of
course, will be trivial. (If the tungsten welding rod is used, its radius
will be (1/16)(2.54)/2 = .0794 cm, and thus the volume of a chunk which is
.75 cm long will be pi(.0794)^2(.75) = .0148 ml. The density of tungsten
is about 14, so such a chunk will weigh (.0148)(14) = .21 gms. Taking the
average specific heat of tungsten in the range from 20 to 3370 degrees C
to be .04 calories/gm, it follows that at 3370 degrees C we will have
stored (.21)(3350)(.04) = 28 calories.) Nevertheless, to satisfy fanatical
"skeptics" that the excess heat in the steam phase does not result from
the dumping of heat stored in the warmup phase, I have prescribed that the
weight measurements be taken while the experiment is running.

(c) I haven't done this experiment yet, because I am not in the mood to
construct the required power supply, and I have not yet succeeded in
finding a commercial source. Perhaps Mr. Lancaster or someone else can
point the group to someone who sells a power supply that would be adequate
to this task. [One route, of course, is to buy a transformer to step 120
volt AC up to 240, then run the 240 into a big dimmer switch to drop the
voltage back down to various levels, then feed the output through a
full-wave bridge. (This kluge is recommended by the article.) However, I
would rather have something a bit more sophisticated, with built-in
instrumentation and precise controls, even if I have to pay more for it.]

(d) In the *Infinite Energy* article, this setup is treated as something
of a breakthrough, because it appears to replicate consistently: virtually
everyone who tries it gets the over unity effect. And, interestingly, it
was apparently first noticed in 1916. Unfortunately, it didn't occur to
the experimenters at that time to do calorimetry, so they didn't notice
that the setup was over unity! The details of the original setup were
reported in *The Journal of the Electrochemical Society*, April 1950, pg.
133. The article was entitled "The Anode Effect in Aqueous Electrolysis,"
by Herbert Kellogg.  

===================================================
Notice: My posts are an invitation to those who wish to engage in reasoned
dialogue, and readers are encouraged to supply any  facts or logic which
they think may refute my conclusions or my reasoning. They should,
however, confine their comments to substantive matters. Reasoned discourse
is a polite and non-emotional exploration of evidence and logic, not a
put-down contest. Thus I am not interested in a respondent's unsupported
assertions, or in his wishful thinking, or in his educational credentials,
or in his claims or insinuations about his or my mental state; nor am I
interested in insulting, derisive, or mocking  comments. While anyone is
of course free to post anything he likes, I am also free to not read
material which does not interest me. Thus when I encounter, in a reply
that has been posted to me, clear evidence that the respondent intends to
engage in  a put-down contest, I will treat the offending party to an
appropriate cooling off period in my killfile. Present inmates of my
killfile are: Scott Nudds (release date: Jan. 1, 1999); Fred Kasner
(release date: Sept. 1, 1998).

===========================================================

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  8 19:35:23 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CF isotopes hypothesis
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 02:35:14 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Sat, 08 Aug 1998 20:33:07 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>
>
>At 12:34 AM 8/9/98 GMT, Robin wrote:
>>I suspect that in the case of CF using D, the main reaction is
>>D+D->He4. When H is involved, the main reaction is H + M -> lots of
>>stuff, some of which occasionally results from fission of the new
>>nucleus.
>
>  Yes.
>
>  H+H may make D. The final product(s) on nickel need
>to be discerned.
>
>  Mitchell Swartz

Mitchell, you didn't comment on the last part, which was what I really
intended as the meat of the post.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  8 19:38:22 1998
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Subject: Ward: Over Unity W Cold Fusion Experiment  8.7.98
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From: bward*remove_this* ix.netcom.com (Bill Ward)
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Subject: Re: Over Unity Cold Fusion Experiment
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mjones jump.net (Mitchell Jones) wrote:

<snip intro of CF experiment>

>(1) Materials required: one stopwatch; one 250 ml pyrex beaker; one
>standard alcohol or mercury lab thermometer scaled from -20 to +150
>degrees C; small lab platform balance capable of accurate measurements in
>the range from 0 to 1000 grams; insulating pad suitable for supporting hot
>materials (up to 150 degrees C) being weighed on the platform balance; 500
>grams of K2CO3 (potassium carbonate) in powdered form; 30 cm of .5 mm 
>diameter platinum wire; two small pieces of foil, each 2 mm x 5 mm, one
>made of platinum and one of tungsten (a .75 cm long piece of tungsten
>welding rod, 1/16 inch diameter, may be substituted for the tungsten
>foil); a variable voltage DC power supply, capable of values ranging from
>20 volts to 200 volts at 5 amps.

>(2) Construction: 

>(a) Cut the 30 cm platinum wire into two 15 cm lengths. 

>(b) Attach the Pt foil to one end of one of the Pt wires by piercing and
>crimping. That is your anode. 

>(c) Attach the tungsten foil to one end of the other Pt wire by piercing
>and crimping. That is your cathode. (If instead of the foil you use a
>piece of tungsten welding rod, you will have to be very careful to wrap
>and crimp tightly, so that the tungsten will not be dislodged by the
>violent reaction.) 

>(d) Make up a .5 molar potassium carbonate solution, by placing 69.1 grams
>of K2CO3 powder in a clean glass container, and adding enough distilled
>water to bring the final volume up to 1 liter. 

>(e) Fill your 250 ml beaker with about 200 ml of the .5 Molar potassium
>carbonate solution. 

>(f) Cut a rectangular piece of plexiglass or some similar flat plastic
>(e.g., lexan) that is long enough to bridge across the top of your beaker,
>but narrow enough to vent steam at the sides. Drill three holes through it
>in a line, so that the outermost holes (for the anode and cathode leads)
>will be the same distance from the walls of the beakers as from the
>central hole (which will be used to suspend the thermometer). 

>(g) Suspend the anode and cathode leads and the thermometer in the
>electrolyte. The anode and cathode should be suspended about halfway from
>the top of the electrolyte to the bottom of the beaker, and the bulb of
>the thermometer should be about a fourth of the way from the bottom. 

>(h) Attach the Pt lead from the anode to the positive terminal from your
>power supply, and attach the Pt lead from the cathode to the negative
>terminal. 

>(3) Experimental Procedure: 

>(a) Warmup Phase: Place the insulating pad on the platform balance, and
>place the beaker and attached materials on it. Turn the system on and ramp
>up the voltage gradually, starting at about 20 volts, until the
>electrolyte temperature reaches about 80 degrees C. At that point, jump
>the voltage up to 120 and begin to move in gradual increments toward 180
>volts. At some point, you will begin to see a violet glow from the
>cathode, accompanied with the sounds of boiling water. 

Using a current source should give smoother control, as the voltage
would automatically adjust itself to the various phases. 

>(b) Steam Phase: At this point the current will drop into the range from
>.2 to .4 amps, due to formation of a boundary layer of steam around the
>cathode, with consequent increase in resistance to current flow.

Must be an arc in there somewhere, as steam is pretty nonconductive.
Otherwise, how is the current getting to the cathode?  And where's
the violet glow coming from?

>This will
>bring the solution very quickly to whatever its boiling point is at your
>local altitude, which will probably be a bit less than 100 degrees C.
>Weigh the material on the platform balance at this point, with the
>apparatus running, jot down the weight, and start your stopwatch. Note the
>voltage and the amperage at this time, jot them down, and continue to
>monitor them periodically for consistency. (They should stabilize in a
>very narrow range.)

An o'scope view of the current and voltage would give me more
confidence in stability than a meter.  Might show some oscillation
(steam bubbles, etc) that wouldn't be seen on meters.

>Allow the apparatus to continue boiling until
>approximately 125 ml has boiled off, and weigh again (while the apparatus
>is running), jotting down the weight and stopping your stopwatch. Verify
>that the voltage and amperage have held steady. Turn the apparatus off. 

>(4) Calorimetry: Subtract the final weight from the initial weight to
>determine the weight in grams of the water that was boiled off. Multiply
>that weight by the heat of vaporization of water, which will be about 2260
>joules/gm at these near-boiling temperatures. Divide the result by the
>number of seconds elapsed on your stopwatch to get the average power
>output in joules/sec (watts). For power in, simply multiply the average
>amps drawn by the apparatus between weighings times the average voltage.
>The Coefficient of Performance is then obtained by dividing the power out
>by the power in. For example, suppose that you boiled off 100 gms of water
>in a period of 50 minutes (3000 sec). In that case, Power out  =
>[(2260)(100)]/3000 = 75.3 joules/sec = 75.3 watts. If you  averaged .3
>amps at 160 volts, then power in = 48 watts, and the COP = (75.3)/48 =
>1.57, which is apparently about average for this setup, according to the
>*Infinite Energy* article from which this information was obtained.

>(5) Analysis: 

>(a) Assuming that this experiment is *not* over unity, then how are we to
>explain the difference between the behavior of the anode and the cathode?
>I am at a loss to explain, for example, why the tungsten heats up as much
>as it does. 

Why would you expect the cathode and anode to behave the same?  The
reactions are different. 

>The resistivity of platinum at these temperatures, for
>example, appears to be higher than that of tungsten. At 1200 degrees C,
>for example, the resistivity of platinum is 52.7 ohm-cm, while that of
>tungsten is about 40 ohm-cm. Thus there would be a bit more current flow
>through the tungsten branch of a parallel circuit than through the
>platinum branch, but since the platinum sources the full load, I fail to
>see how the tungsten could wind up being hotter than the platinum. Even if
>we assume that *all* of the electron current exits the cathode through the
>tungsten, how does that wind up producing this kind of differential
>heating? If the entire electron current of, say .3 amps, passes through
>the platinum lead (which is .05 cm in diameter) and exits through the
>tungsten welding rod (which is 1/16 in or .159 cm in diameter) then by
>what principle of physics does the tungsten heat up, begin to produce a
>violet glow, and cloak itself behind a boundary layer of steam? The
>tungsten has a larger cross sectional area to dissipate heat, and also a
>lower resistivity, than any comparable length of the platinum. Perhaps
>someone better versed in electronics than I (are you listening, Don
>Lancaster?) can explain this to me. The way I see it, if .3 amps flows
>through a platinum wire of diameter .05 cm and a resistivity of 53 ohm-cm,
>thence across a tungsten wire of diameter .159 cm and a resistivity of 40
>ohm-cm, how does the tungsten portion of the circuit get hotter than the
>platinum portion? The last I heard, resistance was directly proportional
>to resistivity, inversely proportional to cross-sectional area, and
>directly proportional to length. By this standard, a given length of
>platinum wire ought to get hotter than the same length of tungsten wire,
>right? What am I missing?

>From your operating mode example of 0.3A and 160V, the total
effective resistance of the circuit is 533 ohms.  My guess is most
of that is in the violet glow (arc?) that is seen when the
resistance is high.  The electrodes are only a few ohms, so most of
the heat would appear elsewhere.  I don't think electrode resistance
is significant in this case.

Plasmas often (usually) exhibit negative resistance behavior, which
can cause oscillation or instability in the DC, giving an AC
component. 

By controlling the current, using some probes to determine where the
voltage drops are in the system, and watching the waveforms
carefully, I think the mystery can be solved. I'd bet that it will
turn out to be improper measurement of electrical power going into
the system.  It's not easy to measure AC power, even with all the
right equipment.  This may be a case of oversimplifying the
apparatus to the point of error. 

>(b) A major question that I have about this design concerns the
>possibility of current spikes due to steam explosions at the cathode,
>which might cause rapid fluctuations in resistance and, thus, current
>flow. These spikes, if rapid enough, would not show up on the instruments,
>and thus could permit unmetered power consumption that could show up as
>excess heat. The crackling and popping sounds from the cathode, as
>reported in the infinite energy article, suggest that this is a very real
>possibility, but I will have to do the experiment and see, before deciding
>how serious this objection really is. If, as I suspect, it is a concern
>that will have to be addressed, then continuous and highly accurate
>computerized sampling of current and voltage levels would be one way to
>get accurate power-in readings. Another way would be to switch over to
>flow calorimetry--which means: pump the electrolyte in a circle, with a
>radiator in the loop to dissipate the heat. If the flow were fast enough,
>the cathode could be kept cool enough to avoid producing its boundary
>layer of steam, and the cause of the putative current spikes would be
>removed.

I agree with your caution. Besides the steam bubbles, there is the
matter of the violet glow.  That might introduce frequencies not
reachable with a (reasonable) DAQ system.  One way around that might
be to directly wideband multiply the current and voltage to get an
instantaneous power sample that could be recorded.  Most important
is to first look at the waveforms carefully with a fast scope to see
what is necessary to get an accurate power reading. Tain't easy.


>(6) Notes: 

>(a) I should point out that the *Infinite Energy* article was unclear
>about the molarity of the potassium carbonate solution. At several points,
>the author (Eugene Mallove) referred to the solution as being .5 molar,
>but at another point he said that it was prepared by dissolving 138.2 gms
>of K2CO3 in distilled water to produce a final volume of 1 liter. The
>latter, of course, would be a 1 molar solution, not a .5 molar solution. 

The initial electrolyte resistance depends on concentration, so your
point is important.

>(The average molecular weights of K, C, and O, respectively, are 39.096,
>12.01, and 16. Thus a gram molecular weight (mole) of K2CO3 is
>[2x(39.096)] + 12.01 + 3(16) = 138.202 gms, and, to produce a .5 molar
>solution, we would dissolve .5(138.2) = 69.1 gms of K2CO3 in enough
>distilled water to produce a liter of solute.) Hence in the instructions,
>above, I have assumed that Gene's repeated statements that the solution is
>.5 molar were correct. However, if you do the experiment and the .5 molar
>solution doesn't work, then try the 1 molar solution instead. 

>(b) I deviated from the *Infinite Energy* article by prescribing that the
>beaker should be on the platform balance when the experiment is done, and
>should be weighed while the experiment is running. The reason: the
>tungsten in the cathode, according to the article, shows signs of melting
>at the end of some runs. Since Tungsten melts at 3370 degrees C, some heat
>could be stored in the tungsten during the early phase of the experiment,
>when the solution is brought to a boil. The amount of heat stored, of
>course, will be trivial. (If the tungsten welding rod is used, its radius
>will be (1/16)(2.54)/2 = .0794 cm, and thus the volume of a chunk which is
>.75 cm long will be pi(.0794)^2(.75) = .0148 ml. The density of tungsten
>is about 14, so such a chunk will weigh (.0148)(14) = .21 gms. Taking the
>average specific heat of tungsten in the range from 20 to 3370 degrees C
>to be .04 calories/gm, it follows that at 3370 degrees C we will have
>stored (.21)(3350)(.04) = 28 calories.) Nevertheless, to satisfy fanatical
>"skeptics" that the excess heat in the steam phase does not result from
>the dumping of heat stored in the warmup phase, I have prescribed that the
>weight measurements be taken while the experiment is running.

This fanatical skeptic does not believe the results are due to
stored energy.  Before and after weight is fine.  Capturing the
steam and doing flow or bomb calorimetry would be better.

>(c) I haven't done this experiment yet, because I am not in the mood to
>construct the required power supply, and I have not yet succeeded in
>finding a commercial source. Perhaps Mr. Lancaster or someone else can
>point the group to someone who sells a power supply that would be adequate
>to this task.

Look up Acopian or HP "operational power supplies".  They are fast
responding programmable current or voltage sources that would be
ideal, but pricy.  Ordinary lab supplies will output controlled
voltage or current, but they are slower responding. May work fine,
though.  I'd try one of those first.  You can get them used for
about half retail price or better.  Check electronic surplus stores.

>[One route, of course, is to buy a transformer to step 120
>volt AC up to 240, then run the 240 into a big dimmer switch to drop the
>voltage back down to various levels, then feed the output through a
>full-wave bridge. (This kluge is recommended by the article.) However, I
>would rather have something a bit more sophisticated, with built-in
>instrumentation and precise controls, even if I have to pay more for it.]

An adjustable transformer ("Variac" or "Powerstat") would be far
better than the dimmer switch, because the output is fairly clean.
A triac type dimmer switch puts all kinds of noise on the output.
Don't do that.  Bridge rectifiers are also spiky until they get
smoothed out in filter caps and regulators.  I'd go with a decent
but inexpensive regulated power supply.

>(d) In the *Infinite Energy* article, this setup is treated as something
>of a breakthrough, because it appears to replicate consistently: virtually
>everyone who tries it gets the over unity effect. And, interestingly, it
>was apparently first noticed in 1916. Unfortunately, it didn't occur to
>the experimenters at that time to do calorimetry, so they didn't notice
>that the setup was over unity! The details of the original setup were
>reported in *The Journal of the Electrochemical Society*, April 1950, pg.
>133. The article was entitled "The Anode Effect in Aqueous Electrolysis,"
>by Herbert Kellogg.  

I'm skeptical, but I'll be glad to help out on the instrumentation
if you want.  One of us might convince the other, who knows?

Regards,
Bill Ward


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Subject: Re:Luna (was- FTL Communication)
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On Sat, 8 Aug 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

(snipped excellent ascii diagram- nice job ,Fred I'm savin that one.)

> Looks like James O. and John Schnurer are on the right track.  This doesn't
> seem to be counter-intuitive.
> 
> Regards,   Frederick

I'm just wondering  when the question will finally occur to someone that
if this all so reasonable, logical , and intuitive , and that the
technology has been around for at least decades to at least test for this
sort of thing , where then has mainstream science been all this time ?

 
Does anyone really think that any of what we've brought up here about the
possibility of FTL communication and anti-gravity is any kind of news to
the military , with all their undisclosed billions in funding for the
so-called "black"  (secret)  projects? How would any of our amateur home
worshops or "labs"  look in comparison to the installations we aren't told
about except by those such as Lazar and Hoagland?

The gov't/ufo/alien-abduction/covert-ops situation must be dealt with,
otherwise we are just spinning our wheels while we laughably try to
re-invent them! 

We could not have  "captured" the moon. It never was part of the Earth,
and it would have had to perform a braking maneuver upon arrival here from
eleswhere for it to have attained the orbit it now occupies.  

It's a shame to have to put the matter so simply , but there it is.

Until something is done , by force if necessary , to make government
responsible to those it is supposed to be serving, we will forever remain
ignorant of the facts pertaining to the origins of life on earth, (where
did we come from?) , and the possibility of communication with the rest of
the universe (where are we going?) 

Or will we choose istead to believe in such fairy tales as handed to us by
gov't sponsored "experts"?  - we evolved from the formation of various
"protiens" ( which water will not allow to remain cogent for very long
without the major intervention of some intelligence) .

As for myself , well, y'all know what I think.

Jim Ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  8 22:52:55 1998
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At 02:35 AM 8/9/98 GMT, Robin wrote:


>Mitchell, you didn't comment on the last part, which was what I really
>intended as the meat of the post.


  Normally, I dont do requests, Robin, but for you, 

 You said:
" Chubbs came up with the rule boson in, boson out. I would like to
expand that to boson out, irrespective of what goes in.
The implication here is that H may preferentially react with isotopes
that have non-integer spins, such that the resultant nucleus becomes a
boson."

  George Miley's work has demonstrated that this may be
more complicated.  See Cold Fusion
Times volume 6 number 3, for example (cover page at 
http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
on the lower left)
  
 ----------------------------------------------

  You said:
" is the driving force behind this reaction?"

   No exact balanced reaction is given.

 ----------------------------------------------

  You said:
"When phonons (bosons) condense into a BEC, they it presents a problem
for any nuclei that are fermions, because they would be forced into a
single energy state. Perhaps they fuse, forming bosons as a way out of
this dilemma."

   Methinks phonons enable, in fact are the sine qua non,
for coupling of the excited state of the
final nucleus to the lattice, which is a different
role than you suggest. Without the copious phonon sea,
even the coulomb barrier penetration is insufficient.

Perhaps you might formally write out what you
mean.

   Best wishes.

     Mitchell Swartz


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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
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Subject: Re: CF isotopes hypothesis
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 07:13:41 GMT
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On Sun, 09 Aug 1998 01:45:02 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
[snip]
>>Mitchell, you didn't comment on the last part, which was what I really
>>intended as the meat of the post.
>
>
>  Normally, I dont do requests, Robin, but for you, 

Much obliged.

>
> You said:
>" Chubbs came up with the rule boson in, boson out. I would like to
>expand that to boson out, irrespective of what goes in.
>The implication here is that H may preferentially react with isotopes
>that have non-integer spins, such that the resultant nucleus becomes a
>boson."
>
>  George Miley's work has demonstrated that this may be
>more complicated.  See Cold Fusion
>Times volume 6 number 3, for example (cover page at 
>http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
>on the lower left)

Miley's work shows results, likely after fission reactions have taken
place. It's not surprising that the results of such reactions have a
preference for the magic numbers.
This doesn't necessarily invalidate my hypothesis, as I am referring
primarily to the nucleus formed before fission takes place.
>  
> ----------------------------------------------
>
>  You said:
>" is the driving force behind this reaction?"
>
>   No exact balanced reaction is given.

I meant reactions where M(Z) + H -> M(Z+1) (at least initially -
 as the resultant M(Z+1) then sometimes fissions), where M(Z) has a
non-integer spin.
e.g. Cu63 + H -> Zn64 7.7 MeV

>
> ----------------------------------------------
>
>  You said:
>"When phonons (bosons) condense into a BEC, they it presents a problem
>for any nuclei that are fermions, because they would be forced into a
>single energy state. Perhaps they fuse, forming bosons as a way out of
>this dilemma."
>
>   Methinks phonons enable, in fact are the sine qua non,
>for coupling of the excited state of the
>final nucleus to the lattice, which is a different
>role than you suggest. Without the copious phonon sea,

Here I suspect you imply that the phonon coupling to the lattice is
the method whereby deexcitation of the newly formed nucleus takes
place. Personally I don't think this happens. I think a "Mössbauer
effect" like reaction occurs whereby the lattice is only responsible
for the force exerted on the newly formed nucleus, resulting in
acceleration of the nucleus such that it gains a kinetic energy
consistent with the nuclear reaction energy.
It is precisely because of this that new elements are found in layers
at depths of several microns from the surface of cathodes. It takes a
few microns worth of "collisions" with electrons to bring them to a
standstill.
It is these collisions (ionisation of other metal atoms) that
distribute their energy into the metal of the cathode.
This also partially explains why "crater like" effects are seen on
some cathodes, i.e. why energy release appears to be localised rather
than distributed throughout the lattice.
(I am willing to concede on this point however that distribution
throughout an "entire lattice" might still produce what we would
perceive as localised effects, if "entire lattice" is restricted to
individual crystals, and said crystals are sufficiently small).

>even the coulomb barrier penetration is insufficient.

What I am suggesting is that (using the above example), neither Cu63
nor H would be "happy" in a BEC. In fact, being both fermions they
would tend to resist violently. Yet the phonons being bosons "want" to
condense into BEC. So we end up with a situation where single state
ordered motion of the nuclei (a phonon condensate), also results in a
single energy state of the nuclei which are fermions. And this they
don't want (Pauli exclusion principle). A neat way for "everyone" to
get what they want is for the fermions to turn into bosons. I.e. the H
fuses with the M, removing two fermions, and creating a single boson
in the process. The bosons thus created are more than happy to
condense into a "double boson" condensate - i.e. one composed of
particles which are bosons, and phonons which are also bosons.

The net result of this is that H will most favourably combine with
non-integer spin metal nuclei. This is because combination with an
integer spin nucleus would result in creation of another fermion,
which wouldn't solve the problem.

Consequently I would expect light water experiments to work best with
metals that contain at least some non-integer spin isotopes, and not
to work at all with metals that contain only integer spin isotopes
(Couldn't find any at first glance).

>
>Perhaps you might formally write out what you
>mean.

I'm afraid this is about as formal as it gets. If anyone doesn't
understand what I am trying to say here, then please speak up, and I
will do my best to elucidate.
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  9 08:01:18 1998
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Subject: "swirling magnetic fields"
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Hello all,  I am studying and experimenting on the subject of unusual
magnetic fields.
Does anyone know of any url's on this?
   Regards,  Robert H. Calloway

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  9 08:55:24 1998
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Try this one:
http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/index.htm


Robert Calloway wrote:
> 
> Hello all,  I am studying and experimenting on the subject of unusual
> magnetic fields.
> Does anyone know of any url's on this?
>    Regards,  Robert H. Calloway

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  9 09:03:28 1998
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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: Robert HOFFMANN <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 09:04:19 -0700
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On 09-Aug-98, Robert HOFFMANN wrote:
>Try this one:
>http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/index.htm

 And of particular interest, on that site, is the cadeucas coil.
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\--
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'
 http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html

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Subject: FTL...Lunas- FTL Communication)
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	Dear Folks,

	And spread the word to your friends....  If you know of anyone 
who wants to exploit real world FTL...  Let Jim and I know!

	
I sure could use the work at this time.


			J

On Sat, 8 Aug 1998, Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> 
> 
> On Sat, 8 Aug 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
> 
> (snipped excellent ascii diagram- nice job ,Fred I'm savin that one.)
> 
> > Looks like James O. and John Schnurer are on the right track.  This doesn't
> > seem to be counter-intuitive.
> > 
> > Regards,   Frederick
> 
> I'm just wondering  when the question will finally occur to someone that
> if this all so reasonable, logical , and intuitive , and that the
> technology has been around for at least decades to at least test for this
> sort of thing , where then has mainstream science been all this time ?
> 
>  
> Does anyone really think that any of what we've brought up here about the
> possibility of FTL communication and anti-gravity is any kind of news to
> the military , with all their undisclosed billions in funding for the
> so-called "black"  (secret)  projects? How would any of our amateur home
> worshops or "labs"  look in comparison to the installations we aren't told
> about except by those such as Lazar and Hoagland?
> 
> The gov't/ufo/alien-abduction/covert-ops situation must be dealt with,
> otherwise we are just spinning our wheels while we laughably try to
> re-invent them! 
> 
> We could not have  "captured" the moon. It never was part of the Earth,
> and it would have had to perform a braking maneuver upon arrival here from
> eleswhere for it to have attained the orbit it now occupies.  
> 
> It's a shame to have to put the matter so simply , but there it is.
> 
> Until something is done , by force if necessary , to make government
> responsible to those it is supposed to be serving, we will forever remain
> ignorant of the facts pertaining to the origins of life on earth, (where
> did we come from?) , and the possibility of communication with the rest of
> the universe (where are we going?) 
> 
> Or will we choose istead to believe in such fairy tales as handed to us by
> gov't sponsored "experts"?  - we evolved from the formation of various
> "protiens" ( which water will not allow to remain cogent for very long
> without the major intervention of some intelligence) .
> 
> As for myself , well, y'all know what I think.
> 
> Jim Ostrowski
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  9 15:26:47 1998
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: CF isotopes hypothesis
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  At 07:13 AM 8/9/98 GMT, Robin wrote:

>>" Chubbs came up with the rule boson in, boson out. I would like to
>>expand that to boson out, irrespective of what goes in.
>>The implication here is that H may preferentially react with isotopes
>>that have non-integer spins, such that the resultant nucleus becomes a
>>boson."
>>
>>  George Miley's work has demonstrated that this may be
>>more complicated.  See Cold Fusion
>>Times volume 6 number 3, for example (cover page at 
>>http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
>>on the lower left)
>
>Miley's work shows results, likely after fission reactions have taken
>place. It's not surprising that the results of such reactions have a
>preference for the magic numbers.
>This doesn't necessarily invalidate my hypothesis, as I am referring
>primarily to the nucleus formed before fission takes place.
>>  

  Agreed. 

  Only added both that and the deuteron forming
hypothesis to supplement what you posted.

   Mitchell Swartz



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  9 19:08:16 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: CF - Three independent mechanisms
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 02:07:58 GMT
Organization: Improving
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Looking across the many results obtained in this field so far, I am
inclined to think that there are likely three independent mechanisms
whereby CF can occur. In real experiments these may occur in various
mixtures.
The three methods are:

1) PIT - essentially a form of hot fusion/fission involving EVs.
2) Hydrino/Hydrex based fusion (HBF). This is also essentially a
"cold" process. It may also occasionally involve electron capture
reactions, which may well be enhanced by the close proximity of the
electron in the "shrunken" atom.
3) BE-condensate based CF (hereinafter referred to as BEC)- this is
truly COLD fusion.

PIT

I suspect that this is the primary process involved in all electrical
discharge related experiments. It's great advantage is that it is
perhaps the most easily reproduced of the three, and has the potential
to scale up quite well. It is likely to result in massive
transmutation. It's primary disadvantages are that it may not easily
produce a large energy *excess*, and it may well be a relatively
"dirty" process, frequently producing radioactive isotopes, &/or
neutrons.
Controlling this process, is primarily a matter of fairly straight
forward engineering.

HBF

This process, really needs to be split into two parts.
The first part involves the shrinkage of the atom, the second part
involves eventual fusion of the shrunken atom and subsequent reactions
of the fused nucleus.
The first part offers the possibility of an almost endless supply of
extremely clean energy. The second part has both advantages and
disadvantages comparable with those of the PIT process.
This process relies critically on the right combination of
environmental factors. Once understood, this should be a reasonably
robust process, lending itself to known engineering principles.

BEC

This process is probably the most poorly understood of the three, and
consequently also the most difficult to produce.
It is likely the process responsible for heat production in the
original PF experiments (possibly in combination with HBF).
It generally produces stable isotopes, and little or no neutrons or
g-rays. IOW it is primarily a clean process, though under the wrong
circumstances, may lead to fission and hence radioactive isotope
production. This is the process with IMO the most promise, yet which
will probably receive the least attention, as it is the least
spectacular.
This process relies primarily on the state of the materials involved,
which will require very considerable research to develop to it's full
potential.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  9 20:27:17 1998
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>Could you send me web links about Hooper( including patent numbers if
there are) if you have it.
>
>hamdi ucar
>

Give me a day or two. It's a long way down to the crypt.

Peter Nielsen

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  9 22:53:49 1998
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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Subject: Please see notes...Re: Woodward theory & Roadrunner physics
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	With cuts..

On Sat, 8 Aug 1998, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Just saw on Pete Skeggs' site http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/gravity.html
> order to amplify the effect

---- As agels' Grandmother always said "  DEP DEP "

. The thing supposedly just gets heavier and
> lighter in response to microsecond range charge/discharge cycles.
> 
	Read carefully and study ...

	
> Well, I've seen enough Roadrunner cartoons to know that when Wile E. Coyote
> runs off the edge of a cliff, he hangs there long enough to contemplate his
> fate and flash the audience his trademark look of frustration and
> resignation before heading off to kiss arroyo at terminal velocity.
> 
> I just don't get it that
--------- a slight percentage change in force acting for
> such a short time would produce enough displacement of a mass to show up as
> a detectable vibration.


	consider ultrasonic bonding ...

--------- It's the hang time that Wile gets. Remember, it's
> the *whole mass* supposedly changing pretty much all at once - it's not
> like a fast moving insect wing or piezo driver or something beating on one
> end of a rigid object and sending sound waves through it. There's also the
> rise and fall time to soften the effect. So how far would a coyote or a
> capacitor really fall in a microsecond?
> 


	DO study vibration, in toto 
--------

> d = 1/2at^2
> 
> d = 0.5 * 9.8m/s * 0.000001s * 0.000001s
> 
> d = 4.9e-12 meters.
> 
> So there's a mass potentially bouncing at 4.9e-12 meters of amplitude at
> one megahertz, presumably against


---- a piezo sensor.----
	DRIVER


 Maybe a laser system off
> a mirror could phase detect the movement? Against background noise? With a
> 1mhz signal slapping the capacitor around with inherent electrostatic,
> piezo, and thermal activity at the same frequence you want to detect?
>
	consider many commercial cap bridge methods


 Cyganski's a scientist, and I'm not. He offers what looks like a good
> argument for some experimental error on Woodward's part, and also admits
> his scheme may not produce detectable signal. But I don't think his
> experiment has what it takes to catch Woodward's roadrunner. I have also
> heard Woodward has improved his apparatus over the published versions, and
> continues to get higher magnitude positive results.
> 
IF YOU DO NOT BUILD IT AND TRY IT...

	you may NEVER know


> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  9 22:55:51 1998
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To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Robin's CF Summary
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To: Vortex

Feynman's Diagrams published in Wiedner & Sells';
Elementary Modern Physics, I loaned my copy to
a Highschool Science teacher, clearly illustrate
Pair Production when an electron and Proton or
Deuteron "Collide".

With recent insight into the rest mass-energy
of the Neutrino-Antineutrino PAIR with a total
rest mass-energy of less than 0.5 ev, the FANTASY of QUANTUM MECHANICAL
TUNNELING in
HOT OR COLD FUSION is relegated to the wastebasket, and Electron
Proton/Deuteron collisions in Condensed Matter can form a composite NEUTRAL
PARTICLE complete with the Neutrino and Antineutrino at ROOM TEMPERATURE, if
the statistical "energy tail" extends up to
0.5 ev or so.

If Nature is consistent, the next "window of opportunity" for forming these
particles will
be in the H-Bomb and Supernova Temperature-concentration range.

This builds the bridge between HF and CF,and puts CF-Transmutation
reactions, where tens of orders-of-magnitude particle concentrations and
near room temperature reactions are obtained, as opposed to the stellar
temperatures and tenuous particle concentrations required for HF, on a firm
footing.

NO NEW PHYSICS REQUIRED, just a bit of diligent
research effort for optimization.

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  9 23:00:32 1998
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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 01:53:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: A little help (fwd)
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	Not proud..
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 01:36:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: A little help (fwd)


	 Been some hard times,  Sherriff auction takes my home
unless I can come up with 2,800 by Tuesday.  Any small amount helps.

	937 229 0880 ... talk at it... press no keys... it conveys message.

	Thanks for what you can do... win lose or draw.

	John Schnurer


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 03:25:36 1998
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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 00:21:42 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Please see notes...Re: Woodward theory & Roadrunner physics
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John -

I used poor syntax in part of my message, and it seems to have produced
some misunderstanding. I said:

 > The thing supposedly just gets heavier and
 > lighter in response to microsecond range
 > charge/discharge cycles.

I was referring to Cyganski's device here, not Woodward's as I made it
appear. Sorry for any confusion this caused. Woodward's device gets heavier
adn lighter too, but it also gets jerked back and forth rapidly in correct
phase to greatly amplify those alleged mass changes. I have read and
studied the Woodward device, and while I don't know for sure if it works, I
do understand, for the most part the principles on which it is based.
Cyganski's attempt did *not* make use of a driver to amplify the tiny mass
changes expected (Woodward's TMFs), and I based my criticism on that. I
used the example of the expected mass changes and the distance through
which the masses involved could be expected to move as suggestion that any
motion or vibration in Cyganski's' attempt would be, as far as I know, far
too small to be detectable. Cyganski appears to use absence of evidence as
evidence of absence.

  > consider ultrasonic bonding ...

I think we're talking about very high power with ultrasonic bonding. My
example was to point out how weak the effect would be in a Cyganski setup.
It's a few milligrams (maybe very few, or even much less) of force over
some arbitrary area acting through a distance quite a bit smaller than the
diameter of an atom. I honestly don't know if it's possible to reliably
detect such a signal from a capacitor undergoing charging and discharging
at the same frequency you're trying to detect - signal to noise.

  > ---- a piezo sensor.----
  >	DRIVER

I doubt it could detect that small of a signal. Even if it did, and it
disappeared when you turned the caps sideways, does it show something, or
just that being supported from the side causes failure to transmit the
signal to the transducer in that orientation? A pos or a neg under these
circumstances I think are totally ambiguous. The effort should be to
*enhance* the effect and make it less ambiguous, not take steps in the
opposite direction and then offer that as a negative experiment appearing
to refute Woodward's claims.

 > IF YOU DO NOT BUILD IT AND TRY IT...

 >	you may NEVER know

Yup. I'm out for now. I have to do 'regular' work for a while until I'm in
a better position to take time and money off to try something like this.
The other person I know of who's interested in replicating is too busy too.
I think we will know eventually. This is a detectable thing, if done right.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 03:44:42 1998
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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:42:47 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: doesn't have to be like this
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Thought for the day,
Don't let the good suffer.
You're very dignified.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 03:53:03 1998
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  =20
Next: About this document=20

Lecture 36.=20

Handouts:=20

26. Exam 2 solutions.=20

27. Writing Assignment 2.=20

28. Final Project Requirements.=20

We reviewed the propagator, its relationship to general scattering =
amplitudes, and its expression as the Feynman path integral. We also =
reviewed its perturbative expansion, in terms of free propagators and =
insertions of point interactions at intermediate vertices.=20

We discussed how terms in the perturbative expansion can be represented =
pictorially, as Feynman diagrams. With each propagator, we associate a =
line segment; with each interaction vertex, a point i, which means we =
must insert the quantity  . We explained how to combine all factors to =
find the diagram's associated contribution to the full propagator; and =
how to find its contribution to the scattering amplitude from the =
diagram's initial state to its final state.=20

We also discussed Fourier transformed propagators and scattering =
amplitudes, which describe scattering between momentum eigenstates. We =
wrote the Feynman rules associating lines with momentum-space =
propagators (which conserve 4-momentum as they go along) and vertices =
with insertions of the Fourier-transformed potential.=20

We noted that the momentum-space picture is most useful for field =
theory, where we observe scattering from some initial set of particles =
of fixed momentum to some final set of particles of fixed momentum. The =
perturbative expansion of the full propagator is the same: we write it =
as a free propagator, plus a term with one intermediate insertion of the =
potential, plus a term with two intermediate insertions of the =
potential, etc, etc. However, in momentum space, the potential we are =
inserting has terms which are products of creation and annihilation =
operators, for various momenta. These act to create and annihilate =
particles at the intermediate point. We explained that spacetime =
symmetry implies that the Fourier transformed potential we obtain always =
involves products of creation and annihilation operators that conserve =
momentum: that is, that create and destroy particles without changing =
the total momentum.=20

We discussed how to write down an interaction vertex for a product of =
fields, at which each field either creates or annihilates a single =
particle or antiparticle. (Which is created and annihilated depends on =
which creation and annihilation operators appear in the Fourier =
expansion of the field: a complex field  has particle annihilation =
operators and antiparticle creation operators, while  has particle =
creation operators and antiparticle annihilation operators. A real =
field's particles are their own antiparticles, so the field has both =
particle creation and particle annihilation operators.)=20

With this particle creation/annihilation interpretation of the =
interaction, the Feynman diagram becomes more than a shorthand for an =
integral in a perturbative expansion. It becomes a story of how one =
process that goes from an initial state to a final state can occur, with =
incoming particles propagating, then getting annihilated at various =
interaction vertices; virtual particles being created at one interaction =
vertex, then propagating until being annihilated at a later interaction =
vertex; and outgoing particles being created at an interaction vertex =
then propagating to the final state. As the Feynman path integral, or =
full propagator, is the sum over all processes going from an initial =
state to a final state, a single Feynman diagram (or term in the =
perturbative expansion) describes one process that contributes to that =
sum.=20

We described how, while all four components of  are conserved at =
interaction vertices, virtual particles can have -- for brief amounts of =
time -- an energy  that does not obey the classical dispersion relation  =
. Such particles are called ``off mass shell''. This is where we see the =
quantum nature of the propagator: all processes contribute, though =
classical processes -- where all particles are on mass shell -- make the =
dominant contributions. (Note that our propagator has a pole, which is =
dominant when the classical dispersion relation relating energy to =
momentum is obeyed.)=20

We noted that in principle we have to sum over all Feynman diagrams to =
predict scattering amplitudes for any physical process. In practice, =
each interaction vertex comes in with a factor of a coupling constant, =
which is small. Thus amplitudes are dominated by processes with small =
numbers of intermediate interactions, and we in practice truncate the =
perturbative expansion. We also noted the formality that many of the =
integrals often turn out to be divergent. For many well-defined =
theories, these infinities can be absorbed by careful redefinition of =
the coupling constants, order by order in perturbation theory. Such =
theories are called ``renormalizable,'' and are the only kinds of =
theories we will consider here.=20

-- KB=20





-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

    a.. About this document ...=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
  =20
Next: About this document=20

Katherine Benson=20
Fri Apr 19 17:39:38 EDT 1996=20

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width=3D37></A> <IMG align=3Dbottom alt=3Dup height=3D24=20
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<IMG align=3Dbottom alt=3Dprevious height=3D24=20
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width=3D63> <BR><B>Next:</B> <A href=3D"node1.html" =
name=3Dtex2html2>About this=20
document </A><BR>
<P>Lecture 36.=20
<P>Handouts:=20
<P>26. Exam 2 solutions.=20
<P>27. Writing Assignment 2.=20
<P>28. Final Project Requirements.=20
<P>We reviewed the propagator, its relationship to general scattering=20
amplitudes, and its expression as the Feynman path integral. We also =
reviewed=20
its perturbative expansion, in terms of free propagators and insertions =
of point=20
interactions at intermediate vertices.=20
<P>We discussed how terms in the perturbative expansion can be =
represented=20
pictorially, as Feynman diagrams. With each propagator, we associate a =
line=20
segment; with each interaction vertex, a point <I>i</I>, which means we =
must=20
insert the quantity <IMG align=3Dmiddle alt=3Dtex2html_wrap_inline8 =
height=3D27=20
src=3D"img1.gif" width=3D131> . We explained how to combine all factors =
to find the=20
diagram's associated contribution to the full propagator; and how to =
find its=20
contribution to the scattering amplitude from the diagram's initial =
state to its=20
final state.=20
<P>We also discussed Fourier transformed propagators and scattering =
amplitudes,=20
which describe scattering between momentum eigenstates. We wrote the =
Feynman=20
rules associating lines with momentum-space propagators (which conserve=20
4-momentum as they go along) and vertices with insertions of the=20
Fourier-transformed potential.=20
<P>We noted that the momentum-space picture is most useful for field =
theory,=20
where we observe scattering from some initial set of particles of fixed =
momentum=20
to some final set of particles of fixed momentum. The perturbative =
expansion of=20
the full propagator is the same: we write it as a free propagator, plus =
a term=20
with one intermediate insertion of the potential, plus a term with two=20
intermediate insertions of the potential, etc, etc. However, in momentum =
space,=20
the potential we are inserting has terms which are products of creation =
and=20
annihilation operators, for various momenta. These act to create and =
annihilate=20
particles at the intermediate point. We explained that spacetime =
symmetry=20
implies that the Fourier transformed potential we obtain always involves =

products of creation and annihilation operators that conserve momentum: =
that is,=20
that create and destroy particles without changing the total momentum.=20
<P>We discussed how to write down an interaction vertex for a product of =
fields,=20
at which each field either creates or annihilates a single particle or=20
antiparticle. (Which is created and annihilated depends on which =
creation and=20
annihilation operators appear in the Fourier expansion of the field: a =
complex=20
field <IMG align=3Dmiddle alt=3Dtex2html_wrap_inline10 height=3D24 =
src=3D"img2.gif"=20
width=3D7> has particle annihilation operators and antiparticle creation =

operators, while <IMG align=3Dmiddle alt=3Dtex2html_wrap_inline12 =
height=3D28=20
src=3D"img3.gif" width=3D13> has particle creation operators and =
antiparticle=20
annihilation operators. A real field's particles are their own =
antiparticles, so=20
the field has both particle creation and particle annihilation =
operators.)=20
<P>With this particle creation/annihilation interpretation of the =
interaction,=20
the Feynman diagram becomes more than a shorthand for an integral in a=20
perturbative expansion. It becomes a story of how one process that goes =
from an=20
initial state to a final state can occur, with incoming particles =
propagating,=20
then getting annihilated at various interaction vertices; virtual =
particles=20
being created at one interaction vertex, then propagating until being=20
annihilated at a later interaction vertex; and outgoing particles being =
created=20
at an interaction vertex then propagating to the final state. As the =
Feynman=20
path integral, or full propagator, is the sum over all processes going =
from an=20
initial state to a final state, a single Feynman diagram (or term in the =

perturbative expansion) describes one process that contributes to that =
sum.=20
<P>We described how, while all four components of <IMG align=3Dmiddle=20
alt=3Dtex2html_wrap_inline14 height=3D14 src=3D"img4.gif" width=3D14> =
are conserved at=20
interaction vertices, virtual particles can have -- for brief amounts of =
time --=20
an energy <IMG align=3Dmiddle alt=3Dtex2html_wrap_inline16 height=3D14 =
src=3D"img5.gif"=20
width=3D14> that does not obey the classical dispersion relation <IMG =
align=3Dmiddle=20
alt=3Dtex2html_wrap_inline18 height=3D27 src=3D"img6.gif" width=3D107> . =
Such particles=20
are called ``off mass shell''. This is where we see the quantum nature =
of the=20
propagator: all processes contribute, though classical processes -- =
where all=20
particles are on mass shell -- make the dominant contributions. (Note =
that our=20
propagator has a pole, which is dominant when the classical dispersion =
relation=20
relating energy to momentum is obeyed.)=20
<P>We noted that in principle we have to sum over all Feynman diagrams =
to=20
predict scattering amplitudes for any physical process. In practice, =
each=20
interaction vertex comes in with a factor of a coupling constant, which =
is=20
small. Thus amplitudes are dominated by processes with small numbers of=20
intermediate interactions, and we in practice truncate the perturbative=20
expansion. We also noted the formality that many of the integrals often =
turn out=20
to be divergent. For many well-defined theories, these infinities can be =

absorbed by careful redefinition of the coupling constants, order by =
order in=20
perturbation theory. Such theories are called ``renormalizable,'' and =
are the=20
only kinds of theories we will consider here.=20
<P>-- KB=20
<P><BR>
<HR>

<UL>
    <LI><A href=3D"node1.html#SECTION00010000000000000000" =
name=3Dtex2html3>About=20
    this document ... </A></LI></UL>
<HR>
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src=3D"http://web.cc.emory.edu/PHYSICS/benson/icons/up_motif_gr.gif" =
width=3D26>=20
<IMG align=3Dbottom alt=3Dprevious height=3D24=20
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name=3Dtex2html2>About this=20
document </A>
<P>
<ADDRESS><I>Katherine Benson <BR>Fri Apr 19 17:39:38 EDT 1996</I>=20
</ADDRESS></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 05:41:13 1998
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: String-Circle Particle (Quark) Interaction
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 06:33:10 -0600
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The Proton (three bound 312 Mev Quarks) with a
Radius, R = kq^2/312 Mev (~ 4.5E-18 meters)constantly "collides" with an
electron with a Radius R = kq^2/0.551 Mev (~ 2.81E-15 meters).

An Oscillation where the energy of the quarks
in the proton (or deuteron) share their energy
with the electron, causing it to gain mass-energy and shrink occurs
constantly , with
conservation of energy and momentum:


e-
|                     e-
|       + - +         |  + - +       e- + - +
|<--->  | | |   <---> |  | | | <---> |  | | |
|                     |
|

This Oscillation occurs most of the time, But
if a Neutrino(v) and AntiNeutrino (av)Pair are formed in a Collision:

-  v av + - +
|  |  | | | |  ie, a neutral particle on1 is formed.

This particle (similar to a Neutron) or a similar particle on2 formed from
an Electron Deuteron Collision can explain HF or CF and transmutation
reactions of "neutron heavy" atoms.

I Think.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 05:47:12 1998
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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:45:18 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OTEC versus OPEC
In-Reply-To: <6485618.35cb6738 aol.com>
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On Fri, 7 Aug 1998 Puthoff aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 8/7/98 2:18:03 PM, you wrote:
> far as I know, no commodity has ever grown more expensive over time. >>
> 
> Postage stamps!  Actually, I'm serious.  I saw an analysis that covered almost
> every endeavor of production in our country, and only postage stamps stood out
> as going in the wrong direction.
> 
> Hal Puthoff
> 
> 
Get a franking machine.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 05:58:55 1998
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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:56:53 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Odd coil, intuition, mechanisms, science
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Hi, Robin

How's that work? Fuel cell.

In answer to Anton, not so much intuition on demand as having the ability 
to turn words and pictures into hard logic. That takes practice, too much 
practice can stifle though, no?

SOrry net, slow. Mesg, terse. Several mesgs today, not in at weekend.
Remi.

On Sat, 8 Aug 1998, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> On Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:36:28 +0100 (BST), Remi Cornwall wrote:
> [snip]
> >(Personal viewpoint, cf won't be used for energy production in the long 
> >run, difficult, messy, temperamental. Its future is RAD waste ameliroation.)
> [snip]
> My personal viewpoint is that it will be combined with Bruce
> Perrault's idea and incorporated in a fuel cell, thus producing
> electricity almost directly.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 07:29:40 1998
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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 10:27:54 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: OTEC versus OPEC
In-Reply-To: <199808071616_MC2-556C-EFE7 compuserve.com>
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At 04:13 PM 8/7/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Whales were still plentiful when the first oil wells were dug in
Pennsylvania. >Of course, we *would have* run out of whales! 

    Actually, we came pretty close.  The price of whale oil was rising
steeply, even though there were oil wells in Pennsylvania.  Then came
Spindletop, and the whole industry changed.  (All the earlier wells were
what would now be considered "stripper" wells, producing a few barrels a
day.  Spindletop could, and did for a short while, supply all of the oil
consumed in the US.  Barrel production couldn't even try to keep up, so
they had to invent tank cars to haul the oil away.)

>The human race has never run out of anything, or run short of anything,
except
>when we deliberately squandered and wiped out resources, like the fish in the
>Grand Banks. That's a result of the "tragedy of the commons" economics, in
>which people go out of their way to impoverish themselves.

    It is incredible how stupid fishermen (and other people) can be.
Cutting production of fish to sustainable levels would put 90% of the
fishermen out of work, but within a few years, the 10% remaining would be a
hundred times as productive.  If anyone in politics had sufficient balls,
they could take one fishery, such as the Grand Banks, distribute ownership
shares--any reasonable scheme would work--and that fishery would eventually
run all other fisheries out of business.

    Instead what we have are fish farms.  They work and they have already
taken over the market for certain types of fish, but for tuna and the like,
it would be almost impossible to farm such fish.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: HB603 (http://www.senate.state.mo.us/bills95/HB603.htm)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:20:20 -0600
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Re: OPEC vs FARMER JONES   BEANS and TOFU TOO!     :-)

HB 0603  Establishes a Credit for Producers of Soy Diesel Fuel =20
 Sponsor:  TATE  Handling House Bill:  =20
            Committee:  AGRB  LR Number:  L1446.01I =20
            Last Action:  03/09/95 - Reported Do Pass H Agri-Business =
Committee =20
            Title:  =20
            Effective Date:  =20

=20
All Actions | Senate Home Page | List of 1995 House Bills
=20
Current Bill Summary

HB0603 Tate, Phil=20

P R E F I L E D=20

HB 603 -- Credit for Producers of Soy Diesel Fuel (CORRECTED)=20


This bill provides for Missouri qualified soy diesel fuel producers to =
receive monthly grants from the Missouri Qualified Soy Diesel Fuel =
Producer Incentive Fund created by this bill. The fund will receive =
$250,000 per year from the Missouri Soybean Merchandising Council, =
$150,000 per year (subject to appropriation) from general revenue and =
$100,000 per year (subject to appropriation) from the petroleum =
overcharge moneys. Qualified producers will be eligible for a monthly =
grant equal to 10 cents per gallon times the estimated total gallons =
produced in that month. The qualified producer will be eligible for the =
10 cents per gallon incentive for the first 5,000,000 gallons of soy =
diesel produced in one calendar year. Qualified producers are to apply =
to the state, as provided in the bill, in order to qualify for such =
grants. Missouri soybeans exclusively must be used by the producer in =
order to qualify for such grants.=20

No grants are to be paid until the first fiscal year after the =
Department of Agriculture certifies as eligible the first Missouri =
qualified soy diesel fuel producer in the state. The grants will =
terminate at the end of the third fiscal year after such grants begin.=20




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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Re: OPEC vs FARMER =
JONES&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
BEANS and TOFU TOO!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<TABLE border=3D3 width=3D100%>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
        <TD><FONT size=3D+2><B>HB 0603</B></FONT>=20
        <TD><FONT size=3D+2>Establishes a Credit for Producers of Soy =
Diesel=20
            Fuel </FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><IMG height=3D5=20
src=3D"cid:005301bdc472$62e17320$768f85ce default" width=3D109%></IMG>=20
<TABLE border=3D3 width=3D100%>
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    <TR>
        <TD><B>Sponsor:</B>=20
        <TD>TATE=20
        <TD><B>Handling House Bill:</B>=20
        <TD><A href=3D"/members/mem17.htm"></A>
    <TR>
        <TD><B>Committee:</B>=20
        <TD>AGRB=20
        <TD><B>LR Number:</B>=20
        <TD>L1446.01I=20
    <TR>
        <TD><B>Last Action:</B>=20
        <TD colSpan=3D3>03/09/95 - Reported Do Pass H Agri-Business =
Committee=20
    <TR>
        <TD><B>Title:</B>=20
        <TD colSpan=3D3>
    <TR>
        <TD><B>Effective Date:</B>=20
        <TD>
    <TR></TR></TBODY></TABLE><IMG height=3D5=20
src=3D"cid:005301bdc472$62e17320$768f85ce default" width=3D109%></IMG>=20
<CENTER><A href=3D"/action95/HB603act.htm">All Actions</A> | <A=20
href=3D"/index.html">Senate Home Page</A> | <A =
href=3D"/95-hbils.htm">List of 1995=20
House Bills</A></CENTER><IMG height=3D5=20
src=3D"cid:005301bdc472$62e17320$768f85ce default" width=3D109%></IMG>=20
<CENTER><FONT size=3D4><B>Current Bill Summary</FONT></B></CENTER>
<P>
<P>HB0603 Tate, Phil=20
<P>P R E F I L E D=20
<P>HB 603 -- Credit for Producers of Soy Diesel Fuel (CORRECTED)=20
<P>
<P>This bill provides for Missouri qualified soy diesel fuel producers =
to=20
receive monthly grants from the Missouri Qualified Soy Diesel Fuel =
Producer=20
Incentive Fund created by this bill. The fund will receive $250,000 per =
year=20
from the Missouri Soybean Merchandising Council, $150,000 per year =
(subject to=20
appropriation) from general revenue and $100,000 per year (subject to=20
appropriation) from the petroleum overcharge moneys. Qualified producers =
will be=20
eligible for a monthly grant equal to 10 cents per gallon times the =
estimated=20
total gallons produced in that month. The qualified producer will be =
eligible=20
for the 10 cents per gallon incentive for the first 5,000,000 gallons of =
soy=20
diesel produced in one calendar year. Qualified producers are to apply =
to the=20
state, as provided in the bill, in order to qualify for such grants. =
Missouri=20
soybeans exclusively must be used by the producer in order to qualify =
for such=20
grants.=20
<P>No grants are to be paid until the first fiscal year after the =
Department of=20
Agriculture certifies as eligible the first Missouri qualified soy =
diesel fuel=20
producer in the state. The grants will terminate at the end of the third =
fiscal=20
year after such grants begin.=20
<P>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 08:38:53 1998
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Light Pulse experiment re-post
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
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At 11:03 PM 8/6/98 -0400, Keith Nagel wrote:
>http://www.rrz.uni-koeln.de/math-nat-fak/ph2/n/grni.e.html

   Very good website...

>So, my understanding after a quick browse of the papers there
>is that 

>a) The effect can be completely described by maxwells equations 
>   (you seemed to indicate otherwise in a post, but check out
>   the papers).

    Hmmm.  Maxwell's equations apply outside the tunneling region, and some
papers suggest that they can be made to fit in the evanescent region.  But
completely described is IMHO an overstatement.

>b) That the basis of the argument is that the "center of mass" of
>   the energy is what is travelling in excess of c. This is
>   reminiscent of what occurs in nonlinear transmission media
>   where a sharpening of the wavefront occurs. I'll have to read
>   more, as I feel presently that this is "cheating" a bit...
>   A while back there was a nice article in Scientific American
>   about tunnelling, for those less inclined to read the web
>   site material I recommend it. Very accessible.

    Hmmm.  What travels at superluminal velocities?  There is a nice paper
there by Winfried Heitmann which argues that these experiments do not
violate relativity.  But that almost throws out the baby with the bathwater
by defining things so that relativity does not forbid superluminal
information transfer.

>c) Theory would predict there to be some signal in the intervening
>   space, although attenuated. I didn't see any experimental
>   evidence to deny this, but perhaps you had one paper in mind?

    There is a paper by Aephraim M. Steinberg: "Causal nonlocality in
tunneling: can a tunneling tree make a noise in two forests at the same
time?" Which argues otherwise, but the consensus is that detecting a signal
in the barrier region destroys superluminality.

>d) Staging multiple discontinuities would be problematic, even
>   one produces serious attenuation. Likely one would be in the
>   mud after a few. 

    Did I say it was easy?  First you have to get rid of the reflected
signal, then amplify and clean up the transmitted signal between each
stage.  Oh, yes, and don't introduce too much delay in the process.  Easy,
no.  But radar techniques for handling microwave signals make it almost off
the shelf.

    By the way, to clarify a few things: one of the Nimtz papers used FM,
several others use amplitude modulation.  Next there are some papers at the
site on tunneling of single photons--interesting reading.  Finally, there
is an abstract for the June conference on more recent analysis of the 1987A
supernova nuetrino data that looks very interesting.  It implies that not
only were neutrinos detected minutes before the light wavefront, but hours
before.  So neutrinos may be tacyons...


                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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Purdue News

February 21, 1997


Indiana farmers produce more than state can use=20
WEST LAFAYETTE, Ind. -- Indiana is 38th in size among states and has 2 =
percent of the U.S. population, but the state's farmers produce 8.5 =
percent of the nation's total soybeans and 7.2 percent of the total corn =
for grain.
Last year, according to the Indiana Agricultural Statistics Service, the =
state's farmers ranked fourth nationally in soybean production, raising =
nearly 204 million bushels. Soybeans are used in everything from soy =
sauce to plastic to soy diesel fuel to soy crayons.

More than 670 million bushels of corn for grain were produced last year, =
giving Indiana producers the No. 5 ranking in that crop.

In 1995, crops accounted for 65 percent, or $3.2 billion, of the $5 =
billion in cash receipts earned by Indiana producers from farm =
marketings. Livestock marketed in 1995 brought in the remaining 35 =
percent, or $1.8 billion. Five commodity groups accounted for 81 percent =
of the 1995 cash receipts. They were, in order, corn, soybeans, hogs, =
dairy products and cattle. The state ranks 14th in farm income.

While Indiana farmers grow a lot of the nation's corn and soybeans, they =
also rank in the top 10 nationwide for production of several other =
commodities. In an average year, the state ranks No. 1 in popcorn =
production, raising a quarter of the U.S. total. Unfavorable weather the =
past two years reduced the number of acres planted, but yield per acre =
was up from 2,400 pounds in 1995 to 3,000 pounds in 1996. Price per =
pound also was up -- 2.4 cents above the '95 price -- increasing the =
crop's value from $16.3 million in 1995 to $23 million in 1996.

Inclement weather also reduced the 1996 mint crop, dropping Indiana from =
third to fifth in spearmint production, with 2,200 acres harvested. The =
state maintained fourth place in peppermint production, with 22,000 =
acres harvested. Hoosier mint producers raise 6.3 percent of the =
nation's peppermint and 2.9 percent of its spearmint. An average of 27 =
pounds of peppermint oil and 28 pounds of spearmint oil are produced =
from an acre. It takes about two drops to flavor a stick of gum.

Vegetable and fruit production also are important to the Indiana =
agricultural industry. The state ranks third raising tomatoes for =
processing, seventh in snap beans for processing, seventh in =
blueberries, and ninth in cucumbers for processing. Indiana melon =
growers rank sixth in watermelon production, growing 4.7 percent of the =
nation's total, and fifth in cantaloupe production, raising 2.7 percent =
of that crop. Tobacco is another top crop in Indiana; the state ranks =
ninth in its production.

The Hoosier state is home to the top duck producer in the United States, =
as well. Maple Leaf Farms in Milford turns out about 35 percent of the =
nation's ducks annually. The state's total chicken inventory ranks =
fifth, as does its layer inventory. Indiana provided 6.6 percent of =
chickens and 6.7 percent of layers nationwide in 1996. Turkey production =
ranked seventh in '96, with 4.6 percent of the U.S. total. Egg =
production is 7.4 percent of the U.S. total, placing Indiana in the No. =
3 spot for that commodity. Indiana chickens provide 5.7 billion eggs per =
year -- 985 eggs per state resident or 22 eggs per U.S. resident.

Marketing more than 7 million hogs each year, Indiana ranks fifth in the =
United States in total hog inventory with 6.7 percent of the U.S. total. =
The pig crop also ranks fifth, with nearly 6.3 million produced.

The average producer who helps to raise Indiana's cornucopia of =
commodities is 51 and a half years old. More than 80 percent of =
Indiana's farm operators live on the farm they operate, and more than 51 =
percent do not consider farming their principal occupation.

Nearly 16 million of Indiana's 23.2 million acres are in farmland, =
ranking it 19th in farm acreage among states. It's 13th in number of =
farms, with 60,000. Eighty-five percent of the state's farming =
operations are individually owned, 11 percent are partnerships, and 4 =
percent are incorporated. The average size of the state's farms is 265 =
acres.

For more information on Indiana's ag statistics, check out the Indiana =
Agricultural Statistics Service's World Wide Web page at =
http://info.aes.purdue.edu/agstat/nass.html



Source: Agricultural Statistics Service, (765) 494-8371
Writer: Andrea McCann, (765) 494-8406; e-mail, mccann aes.purdue.edu
Purdue News Service: (765) 494-2096; e-mail, purduenews uns.purdue.edu




-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
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<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>Indiana farmers produce more than state =
can use</TITLE><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://www.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/9703.Gann.rankings.html>
<META content=3D"crop production, Agriculture Statistics Service" =
name=3Dkeywords>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
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<BODY aLink=3D#cc0000 bgColor=3D#ffffff link=3D#cc0000 vLink=3D#0000ff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<H1><IMG alt=3Dseal src=3D"/UNS/images/sealtran.gif"><B>Purdue =
News</B><BR><IMG=20
alt=3D_____ src=3D"/UNS/images/rainbowLine.gif"></H1>
<P><EM>February 21, 1997
<P></EM>
<H3>Indiana farmers produce more than state can use </H3>WEST LAFAYETTE, =
Ind. --=20
Indiana is 38th in size among states and has 2 percent of the U.S. =
population,=20
but the state's farmers produce 8.5 percent of the nation's total =
soybeans and=20
7.2 percent of the total corn for grain.
<P>Last year, according to the Indiana Agricultural Statistics Service, =
the=20
state's farmers ranked fourth nationally in soybean production, raising =
nearly=20
204 million bushels. Soybeans are used in everything from soy sauce to =
plastic=20
to soy diesel fuel to soy crayons.
<P>More than 670 million bushels of corn for grain were produced last =
year,=20
giving Indiana producers the No. 5 ranking in that crop.
<P>In 1995, crops accounted for 65 percent, or $3.2 billion, of the $5 =
billion=20
in cash receipts earned by Indiana producers from farm marketings. =
Livestock=20
marketed in 1995 brought in the remaining 35 percent, or $1.8 billion. =
Five=20
commodity groups accounted for 81 percent of the 1995 cash receipts. =
They were,=20
in order, corn, soybeans, hogs, dairy products and cattle. The state =
ranks 14th=20
in farm income.
<P>While Indiana farmers grow a lot of the nation's corn and soybeans, =
they also=20
rank in the top 10 nationwide for production of several other =
commodities. In an=20
average year, the state ranks No. 1 in popcorn production, raising a =
quarter of=20
the U.S. total. Unfavorable weather the past two years reduced the =
number of=20
acres planted, but yield per acre was up from 2,400 pounds in 1995 to =
3,000=20
pounds in 1996. Price per pound also was up -- 2.4 cents above the '95 =
price --=20
increasing the crop's value from $16.3 million in 1995 to $23 million in =
1996.
<P>Inclement weather also reduced the 1996 mint crop, dropping Indiana =
from=20
third to fifth in spearmint production, with 2,200 acres harvested. The =
state=20
maintained fourth place in peppermint production, with 22,000 acres =
harvested.=20
Hoosier mint producers raise 6.3 percent of the nation's peppermint and =
2.9=20
percent of its spearmint. An average of 27 pounds of peppermint oil and =
28=20
pounds of spearmint oil are produced from an acre. It takes about two =
drops to=20
flavor a stick of gum.
<P>Vegetable and fruit production also are important to the Indiana =
agricultural=20
industry. The state ranks third raising tomatoes for processing, seventh =
in snap=20
beans for processing, seventh in blueberries, and ninth in cucumbers for =

processing. Indiana melon growers rank sixth in watermelon production, =
growing=20
4.7 percent of the nation's total, and fifth in cantaloupe production, =
raising=20
2.7 percent of that crop. Tobacco is another top crop in Indiana; the =
state=20
ranks ninth in its production.
<P>The Hoosier state is home to the top duck producer in the United =
States, as=20
well. Maple Leaf Farms in Milford turns out about 35 percent of the =
nation's=20
ducks annually. The state's total chicken inventory ranks fifth, as does =
its=20
layer inventory. Indiana provided 6.6 percent of chickens and 6.7 =
percent of=20
layers nationwide in 1996. Turkey production ranked seventh in '96, with =
4.6=20
percent of the U.S. total. Egg production is 7.4 percent of the U.S. =
total,=20
placing Indiana in the No. 3 spot for that commodity. Indiana chickens =
provide=20
5.7 billion eggs per year -- 985 eggs per state resident or 22 eggs per =
U.S.=20
resident.
<P>Marketing more than 7 million hogs each year, Indiana ranks fifth in =
the=20
United States in total hog inventory with 6.7 percent of the U.S. total. =
The pig=20
crop also ranks fifth, with nearly 6.3 million produced.
<P>The average producer who helps to raise Indiana's cornucopia of =
commodities=20
is 51 and a half years old. More than 80 percent of Indiana's farm =
operators=20
live on the farm they operate, and more than 51 percent do not consider =
farming=20
their principal occupation.
<P>Nearly 16 million of Indiana's 23.2 million acres are in farmland, =
ranking it=20
19th in farm acreage among states. It's 13th in number of farms, with =
60,000.=20
Eighty-five percent of the state's farming operations are individually =
owned, 11=20
percent are partnerships, and 4 percent are incorporated. The average =
size of=20
the state's farms is 265 acres.
<P>For more information on Indiana's ag statistics, check out the =
Indiana=20
Agricultural Statistics Service's World Wide Web page at=20
http://info.aes.purdue.edu/agstat/nass.html
<P>
<P>
<P>Source: Agricultural Statistics Service, (765) 494-8371<BR>Writer: =
Andrea=20
McCann, (765) 494-8406; e-mail, <A=20
href=3D"mailto:mccann aes.purdue.edu">mccann@aes.purdue.edu</A><BR>Purdue=
 News=20
Service: (765) 494-2096; e-mail, <A=20
href=3D"mailto:purduenews uns.purdue.edu">purduenews@uns.purdue.edu</A>
<P>
<P>
<HR>

<P><IMG align=3Dleft alt=3D* src=3D"/UNS/images/rball.gif"> <A=20
href=3D"/UNS/newsandphotos.html">To the Purdue News and Photos Page</A>=20
</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 08:45:13 1998
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Subject: Re: Solar Cell Degradation
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
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At 11:42 AM 8/7/98 +0100, Remi Cornwall wrote:
>If you want clean energy, convert dat ocean heat direct into electricity!
 
   I agree.  Right now, OTEC is about a decade behind photovoltaic in
development, but shows much better promise for generating large amounts of
energy.  My guess is that in about ten years, most of the new generating
capacity in this country will be OTEC.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 12:07:24 -0400
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: "Centrifugally Launched Ball Bearings Could Propel
  Spacecraft"
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At 12:06 PM 8/7/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>PEA GRAVEL is a LOT CHEAPER!    :-)

   You missed the point.  The whole idea is not to throw things away, but
to "play catch" throwing things back and forth.  It is very
counterintuitive, but if you and your buddy are in orbit and throw a ball
back and forth perpendicular to your orbit, you will end up in a higher
orbit.  (Do it parallel, and one of you goes higher, the other lower.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 12:17:23 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re:  OTEC versus OPEC
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At 04:44 PM 8/7/98 EDT, Puthoff aol.com wrote:
>Postage stamps!  Actually, I'm serious.  I saw an analysis that covered
almost
>every endeavor of production in our country, and only postage stamps stood
out
>as going in the wrong direction.

   Not really over the long haul.  Think about it.  In real terms, postage
rates dropped from the founding of the country until about the mid-fifties
due to an intentional subsidy  of the post office.  Then the post office
was put on a pay-as-you-go basis, and first class postage rated soared,
while bulk mailing rates were held low.  In the  middle of this, the post
office made a reasonable decision to eliminate Air Mail--most first class
mail over 200 miles goes by air.

   In the meantime, the postal service has automated to bring down costs.
Final result: for less (inflation adjusted) than it cost to send a letter
from New York to LA first class in 1955, you can send a letter that gets
there several days faster today.

   So the only thing that costs more in real terms today is not postage
stamps or gold or even medical care--it is government.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 09:19:38 1998
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At 05:05 PM 8/7/98 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>   They should have adopted AMIGA's AMIGAdos.
>
>   Imagine.   one program..   one file.   

   Keep an eye on Gateway, may still happen.  I'm also boggled at what is
happening with hard disks.  My son bought a second hard disk for his PC, 7
Gig, $170.  I thought about getting a new disk for my Amiga 1200, but I
still haven't filled the 380 Meg hard drive I have.  (But I am going to put
the Zip drive we used to backup the PC on my 1200.  Backing up 9 Gigs to
Zip is right out, so we need a tape drive or a CD-R drive, haven't decided.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 09:28:17 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: Re: Solar Cell Degradation
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On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, Robert I. Eachus wrote:

> At 11:42 AM 8/7/98 +0100, Remi Cornwall wrote:
> >If you want clean energy, convert dat ocean heat direct into electricity!
>  
>    I agree.  Right now, OTEC is about a decade behind photovoltaic in
> development, but shows much better promise for generating large amounts of
> energy.  My guess is that in about ten years, most of the new generating
> capacity in this country will be OTEC.
> 
>                                         Robert I. Eachus

There might be a betterwtter way of harnessing that heat than OTEC. It 
ain't easy,  I come home from work, I'm tired, I've got to study, the 
libraries are closed in the evening. Light at then end of the tunnel is 
working apparatus not just ideas - oh, and yeah, a supporting network of 
cranks who like doing this type of thing. Some people do sport, go to the 
pub, watch tv after work, some devote a little time to really big things. 

Pooling resources and brains helps as our little UK networkbuilds. 
Sometimes credibility can help a person much more than financial 
assistance. When you challenge what everybody believes you can go a 
little mad, then problems compound - job worries, money, relationships.

Vortex listens to peopleand often that is aall they need.
Cheers Billb and if any Vortexerss are going through deep shit, we know 
what its like, we are on your side in many ways.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 09:31:57 1998
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Subject: Re: Light Pulse experiment re-post
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At 02:55 AM 8/8/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>Ok, so it has the in built assumption that the speed of transmission
>of the signal through the coax will be independent of the orientation
>of the coax. If there is anything to the aether theories, or even
>frame dragging for that matter, then this may not be so.

    Let's stick to Occam's Razor here.  The potential theoretical change
induced by frame dragging in the coax is much smaller than the observed
effect.  Even though the distance is less than a foot, 4.5 to 6x light
speed is a non-trivial effect.

>I suspect that with a clock, one is getting close to the theoretical
>accuracy of the clock, for such small differences.

    Huh?  Yes, 300 picoseconds is a small difference, but clocks with 1
picosecond accuracy are off-the-shelf items.  (Actually, you can buy clocks
with drift over 24 hours that is measured in picoseconds.)  The first time
they flew an atomic time standard around the world to syncronize time
standards, they had to correct for relativistic time dialation, and that
was thirty years ago...

>Wouldn't a multiple gap device require intermediate amplification?

    Yes.  The harder step is to prevent the reflected signal from being
amplified at the same time.  But doable.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 09:35:11 1998
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Have you seen the Peter Sellars film 'Heaven's above'? Aninmal farm etc.

Mass orchestrated kindness will always fail because of human nature. It 
should be done on a case by case basis because it's what *you* want to 
do. No one forces anyone. A system to limit human wickedness.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 09:53:26 1998
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From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki)
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August 10, 1998

Robert Eauchus wrote: 

>Backing up 9 Gigs to Zip is right out, so we need a tape drive or a 
CD-R drive, haven't decided.

Get a removable hard disk drive. The top capacity announced for a 
removable disk drive is 4.7 GB by SyQuest. From a price to gigabyte 
removable value, Syquest has a gigabyte removable at $199. No, I do not 
have shares in Syquest. Then there is Iomega, the zip maker.

-ak-

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 Akira:

  Iomega gave poor support for their Bernoullis which
we used, and depended upon, for data storage for years. 

  Now CD ROM disks have fractional gigabyte capacity
(circa 0.7 Gig) for a couple of dollars each offering
serious competition.

  Best wishes.

     Mitchell

At 11:50 AM 8/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>August 10, 1998
>
>Robert Eauchus wrote: 
>
>>Backing up 9 Gigs to Zip is right out, so we need a tape drive or a 
>CD-R drive, haven't decided.
>
>Get a removable hard disk drive. The top capacity announced for a 
>removable disk drive is 4.7 GB by SyQuest. From a price to gigabyte 
>removable value, Syquest has a gigabyte removable at $199. No, I do not 
>have shares in Syquest. Then there is Iomega, the zip maker.
>
>-ak-
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 11:24:27 1998
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August 10, 1998

Mitch you wrote: 

>  Iomega gave poor support for their Bernoullis which
>we used, and depended upon, for data storage for years. 

>From a practical standpoint, hard drive disks (platters) exposed to 
open air enviroment is prone to particle damage much more so than a 
sealed unit. One thing pointed out in hard drive reading head tolerance 
is that a small smoke particle imbedded between the head and the disk 
is enough to damage the recording. They are at best a very good 
convenience item used in clean surroundings. Probably better are those 
sealed hard drives mounted on removable plug-in trays.

>  Now CD ROM disks have fractional gigabyte capacity
>(circa 0.7 Gig) for a couple of dollars each offering
>serious competition.

The CDR drives are coming down in price. So is the re-recordable CD-Rom 
drives. And disks. What some people are doing is to archive on a CDR, 
then trash it and update/archive a new CDR when the need comes. The CDR 
disks are running  about a buck apiece in volume.

Then there are the DVD gadgets. I'm waiting for a re-recordale DVD 
drive to make its appearance soon. Then I'm waiting for a portable DVD 
camera recorder to dispense with the tape camcorder. Later, a HD-DVD 
version of the same thing. And I'll wait for prices to drop on those. 

While waiting, there is the blue-light laser technology developing to 
multiply the CD-Rom capacity manyfold. A re-recordable blue light DVD 
CD-Rom technology? 

In DVD's, I just heard Encyclopedia Brittanica developing a DVD 
multimedia CD-ROM that has very much extended sight and sound added to 
their written word contents. Coming out within six months. 
Might as well make a clone of myself so I can wait longer, and longer 
for the latest.

-ak-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 11:31:02 1998
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Robert I. Eachus wrote:

<snip>
>     By the way, to clarify a few things: one of the Nimtz papers used FM,
> several others use amplitude modulation.  Next there are some papers at the
> site on tunneling of single photons--interesting reading.  Finally, there
> is an abstract for the June conference on more recent analysis of the 1987A
> supernova nuetrino data that looks very interesting.  It implies that not
> only were neutrinos detected minutes before the light wavefront, but hours
> before.  So neutrinos may be tacyons...

Neutrinos as tachyons; I've always wondered about the neutrino's
arriving before the light front. Alos interesting was the recent mass
check of a neutrino: they got an imaginary number, consistent with
tachyons. Naturally, it was called an experimental error. Is there any
experiment that shows the true speed of a neutrino, or is it just
assumed to be nearly the speed of light?

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 11:35:16 1998
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05:58 PM ET 08/07/98

Solar-powered plane could cut satellite costs

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - A solar-powered aircraft that
could lead to huge savings in global satellite communications
has broken a new flight record, scraping the edge of space in
the skies over Hawaii, NASA officials said Friday.

<http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2555445060-adb>

-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
         Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
         Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 12:17:16 1998
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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 15:12:14 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Solar-powered planes . . .
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To: Vortex

Using solar powered airplanes for telecom repeaters is an interesting
concept. The solar airplanes I have seen look too fragile for practical
purposes. Perhaps if they fly high enough, above the weather, they would
survive. They would be particularly useful in high latitudes, in places
like Alaska and Siberia.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 13:04:52 1998
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Hi John :) 
   Say, you guys weren't part of that one too were you?? (+iridium.etc)
I rem: plane was to be remote (pilotless) control.. Congratulations if it
was one of yours... this _Would_ cut satelitte co$t. 
   Didn't know it was planned to go THAT high! *cool*, and it's a glider
like design isn't it??  Up & up and away!?

-snip-
On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, John Steck wrote:
Solar-powered plane could cut satellite costs

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - A solar-powered aircraft that
could lead to huge savings in global satellite communications
has broken a new flight record, scraping the edge of space in
the skies over Hawaii, NASA officials said Friday.

<http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2555445060-adb>


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At 01:20 PM 8/10/98 -0500, Akira Kawasaki wrote:
>The CDR drives are coming down in price. So is the re-recordable CD-Rom 
>drives. And disks. What some people are doing is to archive on a CDR, 
>then trash it and update/archive a new CDR when the need comes. The CDR 
>disks are running  about a buck apiece in volume.

    That's why I mentioned it.  It could run up to a dozen CDs for a
complete backup--which is the downside.  But backing up a 2 Gig partition
to two or three CDs, at a buck or so apiece is a big win.


                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 13:08:28 1998
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Subject: Re: Light Pulse experiment re-post
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>Neutrinos as tachyons; I've always wondered about the neutrino's
>arriving before the light front. Alos interesting was the recent mass
>check of a neutrino: they got an imaginary number, consistent with
>tachyons. Naturally, it was called an experimental error. Is there any
>experiment that shows the true speed of a neutrino, or is it just
>assumed to be nearly the speed of light?

    That's why I want to see the full paper, not just the abstract.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 13:27:17 1998
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Steve Ekwall wrote:

> Hi John :)
>    Say, you guys weren't part of that one too were you?? (+iridium.etc)
> I rem: plane was to be remote (pilotless) control.. Congratulations if it
> was one of yours... this _Would_ cut satelitte co$t.

Not that I know of, but we do have our fingers in many things....

>    Didn't know it was planned to go THAT high! *cool*, and it's a glider
> like design isn't it??  Up & up and away!?

I though it was cool too.  Reminded me of a company I read about not too long
ago that wanted to offer aircraft based comunication and data relay service over
major metro areas.  If I recall correctly, the cost structure of keeping a fleet
of high flying planes airborne compaired with parking a satelite was very
attactive.  Couple the two ideas, and I think it becomes a very realistic
possibility.  Besides, there is enough junk circling the planet as it is.  This
idea may be the only feasible solution to cost effectively increase capacity.



-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
         Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
         Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 13:35:44 1998
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Akira Kawasaki wrote:


<snip>

>Then there are the DVD gadgets. I'm waiting for a re-recordale DVD
>drive to make its appearance soon. Then I'm waiting for a portable DVD
>camera recorder to dispense with the tape camcorder. Later, a HD-DVD
>version of the same thing. And I'll wait for prices to drop on those.

Don't hold your breath. DVD is founded on the MPEG-2 compression technology,
which takes massive pipelined computing power at the front end so the back
end can be simple. MPEG-2 chip sets are appearing everywhere, but I doubt
you will see a realtime affordable front end compressor anytime soon. I have
a DSS satellite receiver, which uses MPEG-2, and another that uses
conventional cable, with satellite feed to the cable head end. Some of the
same programs are available from both paths. There is an audible fractional
second delay between the arrival times of the two signals, with the cable
getting here first. The delay from the DSS satellite is the in the signal
compression pipeline and in the packet transmission of a number of programs
from each transponder.

To do MPEG-2 you segment the image into cells, and compare adjacent cells
and transmit the differences. You also take successive frames and track the
movement of a cell from one frame to the next, and transmit the vector
representing the change. You also compare the result of that transformation
with the next image from the source to see if you got it right.

This is why when you tune into a DSS satellite channel you first get a still
picture, which goes into motion. The converter box waits for the next full
frame, and then produces motion by reconstructing successive frames as
incremental changes from the original frame. Combined with transmission
strategies, this gives about a 50:1 bandwidth compression and enables
commercial station to pack five standard programs or one HDTV program into
one channel. Welcome to Channels 3A, 3B, 3C, 3D, 3E, etc. Whether there will
be anything sensible to fill this channel capacity is quite another matter.

>
>While waiting, there is the blue-light laser technology developing to
>multiply the CD-Rom capacity manyfold. A re-recordable blue light DVD
>CD-Rom technology?

Blue LED's have been on the market for some years. Getting a blue room
temperature laser diode appears to be real tough. Getting one with enough
power to record a CD at DVD data rates may take quite a while. DVD CD's do
not support the HDTV data rates. What they do support is the 4x3 NTSC image
format after the compression techniques I outlined above.
There will be digital VCR's which will take the digital data stream from a
satellite, or a camera, and record it for later playback.

>In DVD's, I just heard Encyclopedia Brittanica developing a DVD
>multimedia CD-ROM that has very much extended sight and sound added to
>their written word contents. Coming out within six months.
>Might as well make a clone of myself so I can wait longer, and longer
>for the latest.


If you want the very latest, it is a very long wait indeed. I think the word
is Eternity.

Mike Carrell

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From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki)
Subject: Resurrect tethered barrage balloons (off topic)
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August 10, 1998

To: Vortex

There has been mentioned development of a solar powered aircraft being 
adapted for communications work.

I would think using tethered balloons like those used during WWI 
(barrage balloons) adapted for telecom repeaters would be more 
practical and cheaper than airplanes that fly only when the sun is 
shining or the fuel is available. It probably is also cheaper than 
paying for high rise space on top of skyscrapers or privately held 
mountain-tops. What with improved materials and technologies emerging 
since 1915 thereabouts, the balloons could fly higher, should be more 
stable, and safer than a mechanical thing buzzing around. Maintenance 
should be easier also. Crank it up, crank it down. Just control the 
number of balloons per populated area. Include ground power, solar 
power, and wind power to the balloons and a certain amount of powered 
directional controls. Include a safety parachute if the thing collapses 
for some reason. And use multiple balloon cells to prevent catastrophic 
failure. I don't know if it could be lightening proofed though. But 
then would an airplane be impervious in a lightening storm?

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 14:53:35 1998
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At 01:20 PM 8/10/98 -0500, Akira wrote:
>>  Iomega gave poor support for their Bernoullis which
>>we used, and depended upon, for data storage for years. 
>
>>From a practical standpoint, hard drive disks (platters) exposed to 
>open air enviroment is prone to particle damage much more so than a 
>sealed unit. One thing pointed out in hard drive reading head tolerance 
>is that a small smoke particle imbedded between the head and the disk 
>is enough to damage the recording. They are at best a very good 
>convenience item used in clean surroundings. Probably better are those 
>sealed hard drives mounted on removable plug-in trays.
>


  The failure rate was not bad, although it would have
been nice if they were portable between systems.
  Iomega did not support to the stores, but moved on to the
next (Zip?) drive.



>>  Now CD ROM disks have fractional gigabyte capacity
>>(circa 0.7 Gig) for a couple of dollars each offering
>>serious competition.
>
>The CDR drives are coming down in price. So is the re-recordable CD-Rom 
>drives. And disks. What some people are doing is to archive on a CDR, 
>then trash it and update/archive a new CDR when the need comes. The CDR 
>disks are running  about a buck apiece in volume.
>

 :-)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 15:05:09 1998
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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:00:24 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Computer backup methods
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To: Vortex

In the applications I have worked on over the years, computer backups have
been absolutely essential. In the apps I have worked on the data is worth
thousands to millions of dollars, and it has been short term, rapidly changing
transactions. Things like the records of scanned inventory and sales at
grocery stores . . . I have learned a great deal about the ins and outs of
backup.

At various sites I have used nearly every known method of backing up computers
from paper tape and 1600 BPI tapes to WORM drives, QIC-80 and TR-1 tapes,
removable hard disks, Syquest, I-Quest, Iomega, You-omega, and
We-Would-Omega-but-there's-20-dead-sectors-right-where-you-need-'em. There was
even a card punch machine at one location but it was no longer in use, thank
goodness. The only thing I have not tried is DAT tape. I have heard it is
good, but I am allergic to tapes. Here is the key thing to remember about back
up devices: They never work well. The main hard disk is inherently more
reliable than the backup media, except for the original IBM AT 20 MB hard
disk, a.k.a. "The Boca Raton Boat Anchor." (There is a large artificial reef
off of Boca Raton made up of thousands of these disks.)  Nowadays, you can add
three corollaries: the backup media will be more expensive than the main disk,
it will be much slower, and it will not be big enough to hold the entire main
disk on a single volume.

This means you must always back up everything at least twice, and better yet
three times. That's the key.

I myself keep seven rotating backups, including ones I make on a daily basis,
and one complete copy on a spare hard disk. Not only have I used every form of
backup media, I have also grappled with a dozen backup programs and various
schemes like incremental, partial, and comparative backups. The software I
have tested ranged from adequate to atrocious. The best I have seen is
Seagate's Backup Exec. A few months ago I tried to use the latest built-in
Microsoft programs on a brand-new Compaq. It failed catastrophically. The
computer froze up every time! I called Compaq and they said don't bother with
that stuff, it never works, we'll send you a CD with the latest "as shipped"
software for your first backup. I asked why they shipped the Microsoft
programs in the first place. They didn't respond. To make a long story short,
the only good incremental backup software for PCs I know of is the stuff I
wrote myself ten years ago, which I still use. I can do a complete incremental
or comparative backup in about three minutes most days on a disk with 13,000
files. The commercial software packages I have tested grind on for 20 minutes
or an hour, and usually they never finish at all.

The best backup media I ever used was a 200 MB WORM drive. It's a lovely
concept, now, alas, obsolete. When a new version of a file was copied onto the
disk, the older copy did not disappear; it went into hibernation, and it could
be recovered. A utility allowed you to set a date and see all files as they
were on that date.

I look forward to testing various CDR and CDWR drives soon. They are slow, but
the medium seems to last for a long time. I hope the CDR backups can be read
by many other computers with older drives. I have seen the CDR disks for $0.75
in 100+ unit lots. For an 8 GB disk, compression should fit the data on ~4
disks. I would do a complete backup once every three months, and toss out the
old disks after a few years. I would keep an incremental or comparative backup
on some faster rewritable media like Syquest, or a spare hard disk in the
computer.

- Jed

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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> Nowadays, you can add
> three corollaries: the backup media will be more expensive than the main disk,
> it will be much slower, and it will not be big enough to hold the entire main
> disk on a single volume.

Ever just consider chucking the whole backup concept and moving to a RAID
array?  The technology is very affordable now given the current prices on
drives.  Basically you have several drives which information is spread across so
that not one drive has all the information.  Drives that drop out of the array
can be swapped out with no data loss and with minimal down time.  You can make
the array as big as you want, with as many drives as you want.  Best of all, it
runs transparent to the user.  There are no additional proceedures to take
advantage of this redundancy protection.  If you sleep better at night having
removable media, you can always use optical drives instead.  Take your computer
home with you in your briefcase everynight!

If you have your heart set on the concept of backing up data, just install
another drive the same size as the first in your computer and dedicate it to
backup storage.  Drag and drop the sensitive files (or the entire drive) to the
other drive as needed / desired.  If the main craps out, the secondary remains
intact.  Not as elegant as a proper RAID, but an affordable option for the
budget minded.

Never been a big fan of long term magnetic storage in any form.  I am in the
camp hoping CDR-W will give the bullet proof rewritable storage it promises.  I
am perfectly willing to live with the 700 meg limit if I can get 99% reliability
that the stuff I backup will still be there when I need it.  Unfortunately, the
widespread use of lower grade (cheeper) polycarbonate in the disks doesn't boost
reliability at all.  I guess there will always be a trade off somewhere....  8^)




-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
         Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
         Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 16:10:22 1998
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Off Topic Trivia
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I thought his last film was "Being There" before he died.

I disagree, Remi.  I think we will all be completely humane towards each
other if we have a pain generating device implanted in our brains
controlled by federal bureaucrats <g>.  Big Bubba noze best, dontcha know? 
He just needs more money.

Seriously, IMO there are plenty of examples of people living pure spite out
in reaction (resentment) for being forced to behave in a 'good' way.

Ed

----------
> From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Off Topic Trivia
> Date: Monday, August 10, 1998 1:32 PM
> 
> Have you seen the Peter Sellars film 'Heaven's above'? Aninmal farm etc.
> 
> Mass orchestrated kindness will always fail because of human nature. It 
> should be done on a case by case basis because it's what *you* want to 
> do. No one forces anyone. A system to limit human wickedness.
> Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 16:26:26 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Odd coil, intuition, mechanisms, science
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 23:23:05 GMT
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On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:56:53 +0100 (BST), Remi Cornwall wrote:

>
>Hi, Robin
>
>How's that work? Fuel cell.
[snip]
Bruce has come up with an idea for utilising radiolysis. As someone
here (I think Robert Eachus), pointed out to me previously, radiolysis
is normally only about 5% efficient, because the atoms and ions tend
to recombine into water before they can be harvested. Bruce may have
found a way around the problem, allowing the radiolysis to occur in a
fuel cell, where the gasses collect on the electrodes before they get
a chance to recombine. As this is a competitive process, I suspect
that correct dimensioning of the fuel cell could in theory result in
quite high capture efficiencies. You just need to ensure that the
chance of an atom being captured by the electrode is much higher than
the chance of colliding with another atom. As far as I can see, that
means making fuel cells that are very thin, and have a large surface
area, while using a very low concentration of radioactive particles in
the water.
Where CF is concerned, I foresee a situation where CF occurring on the
surface of an electrode generates energetic alpha particles in the
water. These produce thousands of H and O atoms each. If the cell
contains a membrane through which only one type of atom (or radical)
can pass, then you have the makings of a fuel cell.
Making the cell thin reduces internal resistance, and decreases the
distance to the electrode, enhancing the likelihood of hitting the
electrode before running into "your opposite number".

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 16:36:16 1998
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At 11:43 AM 8/10/98 -0400, you wrote:
>    Hmmm.  Maxwell's equations apply outside the tunneling region, and some
>papers suggest that they can be made to fit in the evanescent region.  But
>completely described is IMHO an overstatement.

Well, check out "Comparison of Experimental Microwave Tunnelling Data
with Calculations based on Maxwells equations" by Nimitz Heitzman and
Brodowsky. That's their claim. I tend to agree, I think the operative
word here is "analogous". 
>
>    Hmmm.  What travels at superluminal velocities?  There is a nice paper
>there by Winfried Heitmann which argues that these experiments do not
>violate relativity.  But that almost throws out the baby with the bathwater
>by defining things so that relativity does not forbid superluminal
>information transfer.

It's important to recognize that like all theories, special relativity
applies only to a limited set of conditions. For example, in ring
laser gyros the speed of light is regularly faster or slower than C.
But bear in mind, the frame of the gyro is no longer inertial. So
we do a little two step and avoid the issue... 

>    There is a paper by Aephraim M. Steinberg: "Causal nonlocality in
>tunneling: can a tunneling tree make a noise in two forests at the same
>time?" Which argues otherwise, but the consensus is that detecting a signal
>in the barrier region destroys superluminality.

Errr, the only way to achieve zero signal in the intervening space
is to have an infinite impedence variation. I suppose it's fair
to say that resonance creates such a condition, but still losses
in the discontinuous area will create a condition of some travelling
wave component. Thats the great thing about working with this stuff
at macroscopic levels, so much of the theoretical mystery surrounding
this stuff falls away in the face of an experiment you can stick
probes in and measure. Like the above for example, which is much
less mysterious if you argue "when you measure the signal you draw
energy from it, thus ruining the 'perfect' cancellation of resonance,
which gives rise to signal in the intervening space". Of course,
it's impossible to make it perfectly lossless in the first place.

>
>    By the way, to clarify a few things: one of the Nimtz papers used FM,
>several others use amplitude modulation.  Next there are some papers at the
>site on tunneling of single photons--interesting reading.  Finally, there
>is an abstract for the June conference on more recent analysis of the 1987A
>supernova nuetrino data that looks very interesting.  It implies that not
>only were neutrinos detected minutes before the light wavefront, but hours
>before.  So neutrinos may be tacyons...

Most interesting. I'll be following up on that paper.

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 17:50:04 1998
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This is obviously a very controversial question. An inventor would have
several different options as to what to do w/ this technology. First they
could give away the technology freely, second they could be very secretive and
money/power hungry and third the inventor could start a company and product
them allow other to do the same (i.e. computer revolution, etc…)

This could bring about an energy revolution comparable to the dawning of the
age of electricity. If the inventor would like to have a reputation as a
scientist and humanitarian the greedy option isn't the answer. It is also
reasonable to make some money on your discovery. Some would say it is
necessary. But what about "credit" for your discovery? If you get patents on
your designs then you clear state it is your discovery while limiting its
production strictly to the inventor's enterprises. I would want an option that
says, "yes, this discovery is undeniably my own but yes any one can produce
them". Are patents the only way to clearly determine that it is your
discovery? I don't know. 

What about personal protection? Many utility empires would be destroyed once
many companies started to make the devices that powered the world. And many
people around the world would have vendettas toward it inventor. At least if
you had wealth from the greedy option you could employ a security team of
sorts. How would you feel safe? 

I do prefer the option of just making them on your own as other see what you
are doing they could do the same. A successful private sector energy
revolution. There are many people who opt for this plan. I just don't know how
to work out a plan where you maintain a reputation as a scientist, not just a
greedy corporate tycoon, you are the undeniable inventor, but others can still
product them as they wish to power their houses, cars, and the world. I need a
solution.

Please I would like your opinions on this issue. Maybe you have a plan I
haven't considered. I would like all your thought on what I've said. Thanks a
lot. 

Eric 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 20:25:59 1998
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John Steck wrote:
 
> Ever just consider chucking the whole backup concept and moving to a RAID
> array?  

We use a HP tape backup system with 40 Gbit capacity on a cartridge
4x4x1", do our backups at night, and have had no problems.  The second
best system is a multi-DAT system with slightly less reliability.

The HP drive backs our RAID drive system on our server which is
presently running 12 Gbit un-mirrored.

Terry

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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"A large and very fast change in impedance(or resistance in DC)in response
to electromagnetic
and electrostatic radiation. (Item #29)

http://engweb2.eng.nsf.gov/DMII/sbir/ph1_t3.htm

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[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://engweb2.eng.nsf.gov/DMII/sbir/ph1_t3.htm
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 21:07:58 1998
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  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
  Send mail to mime docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

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Wouldn't this be Good News for Greg Watson's RMOD?? Replicability-wise??
-=se=-
-----------------------------------
>On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>
>"A large and very fast change in impedance(or resistance in DC)in
>response to electromagnetic and electrostatic radiation. (Item #29)
>
>http://engweb2.eng.nsf.gov/DMII/sbir/ph1_t3.htm


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 10 22:18:07 1998
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From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki)
Subject: a question on: [OFF TOPIC] Computer backup methods
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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August 10, 1998

Vorts,

What backup systems and practice exists for mainframes to protect data?

-ak-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 11 01:44:19 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Ditto John,

We use RAID and exabyte tape drives. Can't tell you more or could get in 
trouble.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 11 02:03:30 1998
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Eric,

Just be honest and don't deny human nature. Man has all kinds of needs 
that must be fufilled: hunger, sex, love/ companionship, 
status/recognition. etc.

So I say, F*ck it! Cut the humanitarian bull, humans are basically good 
with a little bit of evil attached but we do have crucially compasion and 
empathy. We ain't perfect and no-one quite ever gives their life away for 
no reward.

Face it, we're 99% chimp, about 80% reptile (I think) and I kinda like 
being that mix of emotions and contradictions that is the human experience.

How did NWA put it: 'Do I look like a m*th*& f*ck.ng role model.. to a 
kid looking up to me, life ain't nuthing but b.tches and money'
Extreme, primitive and evil but near the knuckle, no? So many layers of 
civility and cultivation. Have you ever been at a will reading?


Horny toad.
(sorry mood)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 11 03:21:05 1998
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On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, Ed Wall wrote:

> I thought his last film was "Being There" before he died.
> 
I warn you old Wily Willy is no autistic savant. There is something 
refreshingly sweet and naive about the mentally retarded.

> I disagree, Remi.  I think we will all be completely humane towards each
> other if we have a pain generating device implanted in our brains
> controlled by federal bureaucrats <g>.  Big Bubba noze best, dontcha know? 
> He just needs more money.

You know, they could get away with implanting this device if as always 
they do it by stealth.

> Seriously, IMO there are plenty of examples of people living pure spite out
> in reaction (resentment) for being forced to behave in a 'good' way.
> 
> Ed

I remember being forced to teach a slow learner how to read by a 
'progressive' teacher- 'It's not K nife, it's a silent K, no, listen to 
me, Arrrgghh!' What I didn't realise at age nine was that if I beat up 
the kid, I would have been labelled difficult and got special previlages. 
The really 'forward' kids knew how to do this and they became teenage 
mums and deadbeat bums.

> > 
> > Have you seen the Peter Sellars film 'Heaven's above'? Aninmal farm etc.

Oh, and the tale of the Golden Goose.

> > Mass orchestrated kindness will always fail because of human nature. It 
> > should be done on a case by case basis because it's what *you* want to 
> > do. No one forces anyone. A system to limit human wickedness.
> > Remi.
> 
Case by case, and because you love or respect the person. 'Love thy 
neighbour' 'She gave everything she had' In my view, Christianity was a 
big cul-de-sac, but I wouldn't want to be labelled 'Anti-Christ'.
Remi.

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Akira said:

>To: Vortex
>
>There has been mentioned development of a solar powered aircraft being
>adapted for communications work.

A technical tour de force. That a flying wing could run on the solar energy
collected on its surface is amazing. Note that it doesn't fly very fast, and
It's designed to fly high where there  isn't as much viscous drag. It also
flies above all weather. If you spend enough, you can get PV cells in the
15-20 % efficiency range. Same for batteries which could keep the craft
aloft during the night.

>
>I would think using tethered balloons like those used during WWI
>(barrage balloons) adapted for telecom repeaters would be more
>practical and cheaper than airplanes that fly only when the sun is
>shining or the fuel is available.

I don't think the FAA would think kindly of tethers over cities where they
could ensnare aircraft. Since the balloons would drift, the tether position
isn't totally predictable. There is physics to predict that if you have a
strong enough fiber, you can anchor a mass at geosynchronous distances and
run elevator service to orbit. This is nicely worked out in Clarke's book
The Fountains of Paradise and is background in his novel 3001.

It probably is also cheaper than
>paying for high rise space on top of skyscrapers or privately held
>mountain-tops.

These structures are already there and the cellular phone antennae are just
ornaments.

What with improved materials and technologies emerging
>since 1915 thereabouts, the balloons could fly higher, should be more
>stable, and safer than a mechanical thing buzzing around. Maintenance
>should be easier also. Crank it up, crank it down. Just control the
>number of balloons per populated area. Include ground power, solar
>power, and wind power to the balloons and a certain amount of powered
>directional controls. Include a safety parachute if the thing collapses
>for some reason. And use multiple balloon cells to prevent catastrophic
>failure. I don't know if it could be lightening proofed though. But
>then would an airplane be impervious in a lightening storm?

The solar plane flies above all weather, can can probably glide back to
earth. An appeal of the concept is that the footprint of the transponder
antennae can be quite large, so you can get cellular coverage into rural
areas without building forests of antenna towers. Residents can get bent out
of shape by cellular towers in suburban communities. I've seen people in
local meetings having ideas that the 7.5 watt transmitters several hundred
feet in the air will zap them. The ground signal intensity is so low that
the FCC doesn't even require permission to put one up.

Mike Carrell

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Akira said:

>
>Vorts,
>
>What backup systems and practice exists for mainframes to protect data?


The non-stop computing market is dominated by Tandem Systems. You buy from
two to as many computers as you can afford. They are designed from the
ground up to constantly cross check every module and distribute tasks across
the array. You can take any module out of service for maintenance and the
system merely slows down. The credit card and key banking systems run on
Tandem. Others, like IBM have tried to crack this market, but their systems
are patchwork between essentially self-standing computers.

Compaq now owns Tandem and DEC, so they have a good position across the
whole spectrum of computing.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 11 05:37:26 1998
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From: "Rob King" <kingrs hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Solar Cell Degradation
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Hi Vorts,

looks like I stirred up a hornets nest with this one.
After reading some of the replies I feel a lot better about using 
amophourous silicon, although if space was an issue like if I was to 
build a solar electric cart for going to and from work, it would be 
crystaline silicon.
I have built the charger unit, and have 22 15AHr 12v gel batteries.
So it will be a case of put it all on the roof and see how it fares.

Wasn't there an Aussi chap who was working a very cheap, flexible panel 
about a year ago.  It was to be about 10 times cheaper than conventional 
methods of production but not as effiecient in use.

But like a lot of these types of projects I keep wanting to wait to see 
if the Minato motor proves to work or Greg gets his finger out and sends 
out some of these *claimed* roll-around kits, after all, there is 
nothing more exiting than getting power for nothing! And nobody wants to 
be the person who bought Beta-max only to see it die under the 
popularity of the inferior VHS.



Rob King


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 11 06:00:30 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: Re: Solar Cell Degradation
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On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Rob King wrote:

> Hi Vorts,
> 
> But like a lot of these types of projects I keep wanting to wait to see 
> if the Minato motor proves to work or Greg gets his finger out and sends 
> out some of these *claimed* roll-around kits, after all, there is 
> nothing more exiting than getting power for nothing! And nobody wants to 
> be the person who bought Beta-max only to see it die under the 
> popularity of the inferior VHS.

'Xcuse the language guvnor I'm in a mood.

Don't believe the bulls... put about by free markettiers that what you 
see on the market is *the best* by definition. *The best* marketted 
product is just that not necessarily the most technicially innovative. I 
disagree with the pro Bill GaGates sun shines out of his butt brigade, if 
you want to do something serious UNIX!!

But on the principle of personal choice, I don't believe that he should 
be punished for being successful - just look at who is complaining - his 
competitors. Ole human nature strikes again.

Just appeal to people's better nature and hopefully their grey matter.

(The pun on Gates was a typo, funny huh?)
Remi.

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	Dear Remi and vo...

	The address in Remi's mail bounces...  I do not think it has all 
the parts.... it ends in "iesun9"  ... but there is no ending like 
.net... or dot com....

	Anyone out there have a full address?

			Thanks,

			John

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 11 07:07:03 1998
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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	Dear Remi,
	Please Write to John Steck for my particulars.  Thanks...


					John

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 11 07:18:19 1998
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From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki)
Subject: Re: a question on: [OFF TOPIC] Computer backup methods
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August 11, 1998

Mike,

>The non-stop computing market is dominated by Tandem Systems. You buy 
>from two to as many computers as you can afford. They are designed 
>from the ground up to constantly cross check every module and 
>distribute tasks across the array. You can take any module out of 
>service for maintenance and the system merely slows down. The credit 
>card and key banking systems run on Tandem. 

I always wondered about that name, Tandem. Thanks.

So the high end backups are dedicated computers running in parallel and 
cross checking each other constantly. 

I've noticed on CDR duplication, in this instance audio, the 
duplication was not perfect but had distortions in parts of the discs. 
This would indicate that consumer level CDR data recordings for 
archiving may not be perfect at times either unless there exists some 
running cross checks of the recorded material with the original and 
faulty sectors can be noted for skipping and re-recorded on the 
following portion of the disc. Maybe the software already has that 
built in? I do not think so. It's not the case for audio. Glad to be 
wrong on this.

-ak- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 11 07:19:03 1998
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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Computer backup
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To: Vortex

John Steck writes:

     Ever just consider chucking the whole backup concept and moving to a
     RAID array?

That would be overkill for my own computers, but it is excellent technology. A
customer site with financial transaction data must have RAID.


     If you have your heart set on the concept of backing up data, just
     install another drive the same size as the first in your computer and
     dedicate it to backup storage.

Yeah, I have one. But I also need removable storage so I can see the data at
home or on the road. And I think every computer should have some kind of
removable storage to allow off-site storage in case of fire, theft, flood or
what-have-you. In most cases you can renew the off-site backup 4 to 6 times
per year.


     Drag and drop the sensitive files (or the entire drive) to the other
     drive as needed / desired.

That's what my backup programs do automatically. They copy changed files and
delete files on the target disk that are longer found on the source disk. I
wrote them originally for backing up over the network and backing up to the
WORM drive, where you want to avoid copying a file that has not changed.


     Never been a big fan of long term magnetic storage in any form.

Me neither!


     I am in the camp hoping CDR-W will give the bullet proof rewritable
     storage it promises.

Me too. I wait with baited breath, like the cat that ate the cheese and waited
for the mouse . . .


     I am perfectly willing to live with the 700 meg limit if I can get 99%
     reliability that the stuff I backup will still be there when I need it.

You can always get 99% reliability, just by making multiple backups. The
chances that the same sector will be hit on three different backup copies is
nearly infinitesimal, even with floppy diskettes. Tapes can get wiped out with
one error.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 11 08:07:47 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk has alias appended but that is unix user name

or the downstairs accn (run by uni comp unit) r.o.cornwall city.ac.uk

I really hope you get through this mate, I was in a similar position and 
got through by the skin of my teeth. Job offers seemed to come through 
all of a sudden. Whatever benign force that smiledd upon me please shine 
your light on Vortex's friend and good egg John.

On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, John Schnurer wrote:

> 
> 	Dear Remi and vo...
> 
> 	The address in Remi's mail bounces...  I do not think it has all 
> the parts.... it ends in "iesun9"  ... but there is no ending like 
> .net... or dot com....
> 
> 	Anyone out there have a full address?
> 
> 			Thanks,
> 
> 			John
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 11 08:53:30 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Computer backup
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Go on, Enterprise!

There must be a market for bomb proof storage. Let's see, loan for UPS, 
equipment, start out small, few customers, break even in 6 months. Offer 
a whole package of consultancy: prograsmming, repair, bespoke.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 11 09:05:43 1998
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 11 09:23:39 1998
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Yeah, I have one. But I also need removable storage so I can see the data at
> home or on the road. And I think every computer should have some kind of
> removable storage to allow off-site storage in case of fire, theft, flood or
> what-have-you. In most cases you can renew the off-site backup 4 to 6 times
> per year.

Three words, password protected website.  Get your own site with a private
area.  No matter where you are, as long as you have web access, you have access
to your information.  Use it dynamically or just use it to park zip files.  I
find the method very convienent for my personal stuff.

On that note, I seem to recall a site that offered online space for backups. 
Something like 500 meg for free, modest monthly charge for additional space.  I
would have to do a web search to find them.  I don't recal the particulars

> You can always get 99% reliability, just by making multiple backups. The
> chances that the same sector will be hit on three different backup copies is
> nearly infinitesimal, even with floppy diskettes. Tapes can get wiped out with
> one error.

Yeah the problem is I am just happy when I remember to backup regularly.  Making
multiples might be an option for extremely sensitive information, but somewhat
impractical for the lazy procrastinator I know myself to be!  ha ha ha

BTW, here is something I ran across last night, a DVD writer from Creative Labs:
<http://www.soundblaster.com/mmuk/dvdram/features.html>

5.2GB non-magnetic storage!  Drive $500, 5 pack of media $150.  8^)


-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
         Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
         Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

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The following is a press release of the European Space Agency:

						Paris  11 August 1998

SOHO: on the road to recovery

Six days after receiving the first signal from the dormant SOHO Spacecraft,
several blocks of telemetry data giving the spacecraft's on-board status
were acquired late Saturday night, 8 August, at 23:15 hrs GMT. Further data
acquisitions took place on Sunday 9 August and will continue in the
following days.

"This is the best news I've heard since we lost contact with SOHO on 25
June" said Roger Bonnet, ESA's Director of Science.  "I never gave up hope
of some recovery of this fantastic mission.  We should just hope that the
damage sustained by SOHO's enforced period of deep freeze does not affect
the scientific payload too much."

Following analysis of the expected on-board conditions by engineers from
the European Space Agency and Matra Marconi Space  (builders of the SOHO
spacecraft) a series of command sequences was up-linked through the NASA
Deep Space Network (DSN) station at Goldstone,CA.  These sequences were
designed to divert the available solar array power into a partial charging
of one of the on-board batteries.

After 10 hours of battery charging, the telemetry was commanded on and
seven full sets of data of the on-board status  were received. After one
minute telemetry was switched off from ground controllers in order to
preserve on-board resources. Further details on the on-board conditions
were obtained the following day (Sunday 9 August) in two subsequent
telemetry acquisitions lasting four  and five minutes respectively. Data
gathered  included information on temperature and voltages for payload
instruments, which are currently being analysed.

With the battery charging technique proven successful, the team has
requested a full 24-hour coverage of SOHO to attempt a more complete
charging.  The NASA DSN has accepted this request as a "Spacecraft
Emergency" giving it priority over other DSN scheduled activities. The
procedure is currently on-going.

ESA's Francis Vanderbussche, in charge of the SOHO Recovery Team at GSFC,
said  "I am truly satisfied with the information the data we acquired gives
us. Conditions on-board are as good as we expected them to be". At the
moment the team is working on the next series of procedures which will be
aimed at thawing the on-board hydrazine fuel, currently at 0°C, to enable
attitude control of the spacecraft to be re-established.  This will be
attempted once full charge can be established in both on-board batteries
later this week.

Radio contact with SOHO, a joint mission of ESA and NASA, was interrupted
on 25 June 1998. The delicate recovery activities are being directed by the
ESA SOHO project team from the NASA Operation Centre at GFSC.

SOHO had completed its nominal two-year mission in April 1998. The
spacecraft has already achieved  spectacular results concerning  the
dynamics of the solar interior and has given  a comprehensive view of the
solar corona.  Its mission had recently been extended to 2003 to cover the
upcoming period of maximum solar activity expected to peak in 2001.

More information on SOHO, including mission status reports, is available on
the Internet at http://sohowww.estec.esa.nl or via the new ESA science
website: http://sci.esa.int

For further information please contact:

Franco Bonacina, ESA Headquarters, Paris, France- Tel. + 33 (0)1 5369 7713
Don Savage, NASA Headquarters, Washington D.C.- Tel. + 1 202 358 1727
Bill Steigerwald, NASA Goddard Spaceflight Center, Greenbelt, MD- Tel. + 1
301 286 5017


_____________________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 11 12:20:32 1998
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: PUT ...Re: GIT (Giant Impedance Transition) Phenomenon in LaB6 Thin Films
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	Dear Fred,

	Can you send the text to this as ASCII?

		Thanks,

				J

On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

> "A large and very fast change in impedance(or resistance in DC)in response
> to electromagnetic
> and electrostatic radiation. (Item #29)
> 
> http://engweb2.eng.nsf.gov/DMII/sbir/ph1_t3.htm
> 

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Cutting Edge Research & Wish List.  :-)

http://sbir.er.doe.gov/sbir96/awrd96p1.sph

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 11 12:39:18 1998
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Can anyone put this in ASCII for John Schnurer?

http://engweb2.eng.nsf.gov/DMII/sbir/ph1_t3.htm

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Subject: Re: PUT ...Re: GIT (Giant Impedance Transition) Phenomenon in LaB6 Thin Films
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-----Original Message-----
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 11, 1998 1:19 PM
Subject: PUT ...Re: GIT (Giant Impedance Transition) Phenomenon in LaB6 Thin
Films

John Schnurer wrote:


>
>
> Dear Fred,
>
> Can you send the text to this as ASCII?
>
> Thanks,

Over my head,John, Sorry. But I Think some of the more PC literate folks
can.
>
> J
>
>On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>
>> "A large and very fast change in impedance(or resistance in DC)in
response
>> to electromagnetic
>> and electrostatic radiation. (Item #29)
>>
>> http://engweb2.eng.nsf.gov/DMII/sbir/ph1_t3.htm
>>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 11 13:20:16 1998
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Frederick J Sparber wrote:
> Can anyone put this in ASCII for John Schnurer?
> http://engweb2.eng.nsf.gov/DMII/sbir/ph1_t3.htm

Done.

-- 
    _______________________________________ 
       John E. Steck
         Senior Mechanical Engineer
           Rapid Tooling Applications

       Motorola Consumer Electronics
         Personal Communications Sector
           Libertyville, IL
    _______________________________________

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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
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Subject: Re: GIT (Giant Impedance Transition) Phenomenon in LaB6 Thin Films
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Attached is a .txt version the GIT abstract for
John Schnurer as requested. The file 
has long lines, if you need CR's added
let me know.

Regards.
George Holz  - george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems


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Giant Impedance Transition in Lanthanum Hexaboride (LaB6) Thin Films - =
Ultramet, 12173 Montague St., Pacoima, CA 91331-2210;=20
Tel: 818-899-0236; Fax: 818-890-1946
Principal Investigator: Robert H. Tuffias
Business Official: Craig N. Ward
NSF Grant No. 9460511; Amount: $64,996=20
Ultramet is investigating a new phenomenon discovered recently at =
Ultramet while fabricating thermionic emission devices using thin films =
of lanthanum hexaboride (LaB6), a low work function thermionic emitter. =
This phenomenon, designated giant impedance transition (GIT), is =
represented by a large and very fast change in impedance (or resistance =
in DC) in response to external electromagnetic and electrostatic =
radiation. It should be noted that all observations of the GIT =
phenomenon have been extremely preliminary, obtained merely as a =
byproduct of the thermionic emission work being performed, with no focus =
having been given to the phenomenon itself. As such, much additional =
work is required to understand the physics of the GIT phenomenon and =
quantify it before proceeding to the device design stage. In this =
program, Ultramet is investigating the GIT phenomenon to achieve an =
understanding of its physics, perform quantitative analysis, and relate =
the behavior of the impedance change in the LaB6 deposit to its =
microstructure and thus, the processing technique. Ultramet is teaming =
with a major university for characterization of the electrical and =
optical properties of LaB6 thin films produced at Ultramet. The =
successful completion of this effort will result in an understanding and =
quantification of the GIT phenomenon, as well as a direction for device =
design and fabrication to be pursued in follow-on work.=20
The potential commercial application as described by the awardee: =
Significant potential commercial applications exist for devices =
utilizing the giant impedance transition principle, including RAM and =
DRAM computer memory, sensors, and other electronic devices. The =
successful transition of the LaB6 GIT phenomenon from laboratory =
research to commercial development would have a positive impact on a =
number of billion dollar electronic industries.=20
toptop


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 11 15:32:40 1998
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Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:29:32 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: incandescent W
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Gnorts,

We have succeeded in a fairly cursory observation of the phenomenon known
as "the incandescent W cathode" (Ohmori & Mizuno) or "boiled lightning"
(Infinite Energy #20).

If I hadn't already been informed that this phenomenon was really cold
fusion, I would probably conclude that it is just an interesting electrical
conduction phenomenon that occurs during high-current electrolysis.  Under
certain conditions, a nearly-complete vapor film forms around the cathode
creating an underwater arc discharge.  This discharge concentrates most of
the cell's input power onto the cathode and it heats to incandescence.  The
phenomenon appears to happen with any metal as the cathode (e.g. Pt)...but
tungsten is able to withstand the temperature better than most (Pt melts
quickly after the arcing starts).

However, since other investigators have reported evidence of o-u behavior
in this experiment, we will probably go on to perform a calorimetric power
balance measurement on our cell.  This will not be trivial as we have to
get the cell to operate steadily for at least an hour (or two) to get a
decent reading from it.

I am therefore curious as to the present status of the research efforts of
the other investigators of this phenomenon.  Gene?  the Bahamas?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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Subject: Re: incandescent W 
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While you are at it Scott,in the late 50s I got
impatient with the H2SO4 hard anodizing process for aluminum, so I put some
MoO3 in water with some dry ice, and using a brass plate for a cathode (a
metal coffee can would suffice) and clipped pieces of 6061 T6 aluminum to
the positive lead of a DC supply good for 250 volts at a few amps or more.

As I touched the Al to the water surface it anodized with a hard gray-brown
coat as fast as I could insert it into the solution. :-)

The solution got quite warm and turned to a blue color. The anodize
withstood several kv applied using the point of a scribe as an electrode.

MoO3 is slightly soluble in H2O, and turns to
"Molybdic Acid".

This is a dangerous electrical hazard, but it
is a fast process. And since you're halfway there.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

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From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
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Scott Little wrote:

>We have succeeded in a fairly cursory observation of the phenomenon known
>as "the incandescent W cathode" (Ohmori & Mizuno) or "boiled lightning"
>(Infinite Energy #20)....
... since other investigators have reported evidence of o-u behavior
>in this experiment, we will probably go on to perform a calorimetric power
>balance measurement on our cell.  This will not be trivial as we have to
>get the cell to operate steadily for at least an hour (or two) to get a
>decent reading from it.

The power input is large, about 50 watt. Isn't this enough to reach
equilibrium in your calorimeter in less time?

I was thinking about the need to recombine H2 and O2. If a catalytic
recombiner is not practical or is too large, how about a spark to ignite
the mixture? You could discharg a frequent spark across a small gap every
second or so in the gas region above the liquid. This should ignite the H2
+ O2 mixture every time there is enough to burn. Of course, the volume
should not be allowed to become too large!!! The power in such an
infrequent spark is quite small, so it shouldn't invalidate the
calorimetry. The biggest problem, though, might be keeping the feedthrough
insulators dry and insulating.

You might run your regular calorimeter exit water through a loop in the gas
space to condense the water vapor. Now you have a closed system.



Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


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Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 21:51:42 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: incandescent W
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To: Vortex; >INTERNET:little eden.com

Scott Little writes:

     We have succeeded in a fairly cursory observation of the phenomenon
     known as "the incandescent W cathode" (Ohmori & Mizuno) or "boiled
     lightning" (Infinite Energy #20).

It may not be the same thing though. Cravens says it has to make a particular
noise, or you have not hit the right resonant frequency (or whatever it is)
and you will get no heat. There is no doubt the people at the French AEC *did*
see the plasma but they *did not* see the excess heat. That means either:

1. The phenomenon comes and goes, which is quite likely. That's what Cravens
says.

OR

2. We screwed up the calorimetry, which is still crude by any standard.

Take your pick. It you suspect #2 the best thing to do is to wait six months
for Mallove and Wall to do better calorimetry.


     If I hadn't already been informed that this phenomenon was really cold
     fusion, I would probably conclude that it is just an interesting
     electrical conduction phenomenon that occurs during high-current
     electrolysis.

It is far too early for anyone to claim this is "really cold fusion"!!! You
have been informed that this might be an o-u phenomenon, and it might possibly
have some connection with CF. Everything is still preliminary. I am sure I
speak for Mallove, Wall, Ohmori and Mizuno on that score.

In a sense, I am sure this is just an interesting electrical conduction
phenomenon. You might say that an implosion atomic bomb is "just an
interesting exercise in precision directed explosions." The plasma phenomenon
can be explained with conventional electrochemistry. I think Kellogg probably
did explain it satisfactorily, along with many electrochemical aspects of the
phenomenon. The question is, can this conventional chemical phenomenon give
rise to a second, nuclear effect? We'll find out. The French AEC demonstrated
that you can produce the plasma without excess heat, so the plasma is
necessary but not sufficient, and the plasma must be conventional. Also, the
plasma forms equally easily on the anode side, with oxygen, and I would be
very surprised if this also gives rise to excess heat. Mitch Swartz disputes
this, but Kellogg stated quite clearly that the effect occurs with either or
both electrodes, and I agree.

By the way, the Kellogg paper is required reading for anyone who seriously
wants to replicate this experiment.


     This will not be trivial as we have to get the cell to operate steadily
     for at least an hour (or two) to get a decent reading from it.

>From what I have seen, this will be impossible at this stage in the
development. The electrolyte will boil off or the cathode will shake itself to
pieces. With this experiment is that you have to watch the cathode to make
sure the effect is still on, and you can only run it for a short time before
the device self-destructs. So you cannot put the experiment in a proper
calorimeter. It might take months or years before we learn to trigger the
effect reliably in a place we cannot see, and make sure it continues for more
than five minutes.

Also it is essential that you recombine the gas. Mike Schaffer recommended a
good way to do this. You might use a spark plug. It is robust and it works
practically anywhere. Run the calorimeter for a half-day with the spark plug
alone to see if it adds significant heat.


     I am therefore curious as to the present status of the research efforts
     of the other investigators of this phenomenon.  Gene?  the Bahamas?

Gene is busy. Call Bow and talk to Ed Wall.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 11 20:58:06 1998
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August 11, 1998

You wrote:
 
> No point in using Vortex bandwidth to further this thread.

No problem. I just got the tail end of the (off) thread. As long as you
were posting descriptive explanations, I figger, might as well ask and
learn on the spot. My experiences lies elsewhere. Thanks anyway. It sure
beats some posts I've been looking and skipping on the Vortex.

-ak-

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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: incandescent W
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At 06:00 PM 8/11/98 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote:

>The power input is large, about 50 watt. Isn't this enough to reach
>equilibrium in your calorimeter in less time?

I'm confused. The time constant is RC.  R (degrees/watt) is the thermal
coupling between the cell and the flowing water and C (joules/degree) is
the heat capacity of the cell.  How does the input power affect the equil
time?

>I was thinking about the need to recombine H2 and O2.

I like the spark idea.  I think my regular catalyst pellets may not survive
the spashing that goes on inside the cell.  Of course, the glass cell may
not survive the spark-ignited explosions...

>You might run your regular calorimeter exit water through a loop in the gas
>space to condense the water vapor. Now you have a closed system.

This is also a good idea.  I need to have a closed system.  In my
experiments thus far, it seems possible to keep the cell just below boiling
by regulating the voltage...and still maintain incandescence on the W.
BTW, I'm using a 1/16" dia pure W welding rod with about 1/2" of it exposed
(the rest is sleeved in Teflon).

Jed sed:

>Cravens says it has to make a particular
>noise, or you have not hit the right resonant frequency (or whatever it is)
>and you will get no heat.

Good.  It just wouldn't feel right to do an experiment where there wasn't a
readily available excuse for dismissing negative results as meaningless.

BTW, my cell makes lots of really amazing noises...one wonders how the
glass remains intact.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

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At 09:51 PM 8/11/98 -0400, Jed wrote:

>In a sense, I am sure this is just an interesting electrical conduction
>phenomenon. You might say that an implosion atomic bomb is "just an
>interesting exercise in precision directed explosions." The plasma phenomenon
>can be explained with conventional electrochemistry. I think Kellogg probably
>did explain it satisfactorily, along with many electrochemical aspects of the
>phenomenon. The question is, can this conventional chemical phenomenon give
>rise to a second, nuclear effect? We'll find out. The French AEC demonstrated
>that you can produce the plasma without excess heat, so the plasma is
>necessary but not sufficient, and the plasma must be conventional. Also, the
>plasma forms equally easily on the anode side, with oxygen, and I would be
>very surprised if this also gives rise to excess heat. Mitch Swartz disputes
>this, but Kellogg stated quite clearly that the effect occurs with either or
>both electrodes, and I agree.
>

   Just returned from watching the Pleides meteor shower (and two
other nearby radiants) to read Jed's post.

    I dont dispute that Kellogg observed this phenomenon at the anode
(hence the "anode effect", at very acidic pH which are not usually
used in this expts.   There is a quite a bit about this posted
years ago on spf.

    I dont dispute that the 'anode effect' is used now by both skeptics
of, and those interested in, cold fusion.

    I only dispute that insufficient data has been provided here to 
support some of the claims which Jed has made, but remain interested in 
seeing/reading more.

     Mitchell Swartz

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Subject: RE: Re; Phase Velocity, The Guillotine Effect and Shear Nonsense
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BDC5AB.0EDD3720
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Fred Sparber wrote:

<A paper cutting shear 137 cm wide with a blade
<with an angle such that when the heel is touching the paper and the =
other
<edge is 1.0 cm above the paper (0.4181 degrees) is dropped one cm at a =
<rate of one cm/second.
<
<The paper is cut at a rate of 137 cm/sec!
          =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----

Fred went on to apply this guillotine idea to FTL matters.=20
	This phase velocity stuff is over my head, as Jed would say, but it =
looks to me that the "point of paper cut" (blade intersection) moves at =
an *average* of 137 cm/sec. As it approaches the pivot of the =
guillotine, the "speed" approaches infinity - the bigger the guilotine, =
the faster it goes. Does this imply that any FTL communication using =
phase velocity would be effectively instantaneous throughout the =
Universe?

(Wild speculation following)
	If one jiggled (modulated) the handle of the guillotine, the "point of =
cut" would be modulated too. If detectable, the blade intersection would =
give back info about the modulation of the handle. If the speed of the =
handle is c, then modulating the speed of c may modulate the blade =
intersection. How do we modulate c? If I understood Hal recently, the =
permittivity (or whatever -still over my head) is altered between =
Casimir plates, so, modulating the gap between two Casimir plates will =
modulate the speed of light, and may transmit that modulation via phase =
velocity, Universe wide, practically instantaneously. What wrong with =
this idea then?

                                         Nick Palmer - Jersey Friends of =
the Earth  
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Subject: Re: Re; Phase Velocity, The Guillotine Effect and Shear Nonsense
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-----Original Message-----
From: N. A. Palmer <nick7 itl.net>
To: 'vortex-l eskimo.com' <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 5:39 AM
Subject: RE: Re; Phase Velocity, The Guillotine Effect and Shear Nonsen


Marie Antoinette , off the top of the head answer, perhaps, sick  Nick?


Fred Sparber wrote:

<A paper cutting shear 137 cm wide with a blade
<with an angle such that when the heel is touching the paper and the other
<edge is 1.0 cm above the paper (0.4181 degrees) is dropped one cm at a
<rate of one cm/second.
<
<The paper is cut at a rate of 137 cm/sec!
          ------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------

Fred went on to apply this guillotine idea to FTL matters.
This phase velocity stuff is over my head, as Jed would say, but it looks to
me that the "point of paper cut" (blade intersection) moves at an *average*
of 137 cm/sec. As it approaches the pivot of the guillotine, the "speed"
approaches infinity - the bigger the guilotine, the faster it goes. Does
this imply that any FTL communication using phase velocity would be
effectively instantaneous throughout the Universe?

(Wild speculation following)
If one jiggled (modulated) the handle of the guillotine, the "point of cut"
would be modulated too. If detectable, the blade intersection would give
back info about the modulation of the handle. If the speed of the handle is
c, then modulating the speed of c may modulate the blade intersection. How
do we modulate c? If I understood Hal recently, the permittivity (or
whatever -still over my head) is altered between Casimir plates, so,
modulating the gap between two Casimir plates will modulate the speed of
light, and may transmit that modulation via phase velocity, Universe wide,
practically instantaneously. What wrong with this idea then?

                                         Nick Palmer - Jersey Friends of the
Earth

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Subject: Re: incandescent W
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Jed writes:
> Scott Little writes:
> 
>      We have succeeded in a fairly cursory observation of the phenomenon
>      known as "the incandescent W cathode" (Ohmori & Mizuno) or "boiled
>      lightning" (Infinite Energy #20).
> 
> It may not be the same thing though. Cravens says it has to make a
particular
> noise, or you have not hit the right resonant frequency (or whatever it
is)
> and you will get no heat. There is no doubt the people at the French AEC
*did*
> see the plasma but they *did not* see the excess heat. That means either:
> 
> 1. The phenomenon comes and goes, which is quite likely. That's what
Cravens
> says.
> 
> OR
> 
> 2. We screwed up the calorimetry, which is still crude by any standard.
> 
Once the cell temperature has reached about 80C and voltage exceeds about
60 V, the accepted steam envelope forms, which quenches most of the current
flow and electrolysis.  This is NOT a high current electrolysis experiment.
 There are a number of different effects seen starting from the purple-blue
glow around the edge of the metal to the full-blown incandescence
accompanied by  a sort of screaching noise and large bubble generation
(presumably steam) at voltages approaching 190V

> Take your pick. It you suspect #2 the best thing to do is to wait six
months
> for Mallove and Wall to do better calorimetry.
> 
We have had numerous things to distract us from the boiled lightening.  My
current thinking is to use a thick stopper on a well insulated small beaker
for a boil-off experiment.  This may keep the re-boiling of condensate from
beaker walls from being too much of a problem.    A fairly large tube would
penetrate the stopper, routing the hot gasses into a condenser.  The tube
would be formed so that minimal condensation in the tube would drip back
into the beaker (insulate the uphill part)  We could determine if much
electrolyte was entrained in the gas by testing the condensate.

I think this makes more sense than long-term calorimetry, due to the
unstable cathode.  
> 
<snip> Everything is still preliminary. I am sure I
> speak for Mallove, Wall, Ohmori and Mizuno on that score.
> 
Yep for Wall.

> Kellogg stated quite clearly that the effect occurs with either or
> both electrodes, and I agree.
>
We have repeatedly seen the Pt anode develop the same sort of effect.  It
occurs if the voltage is turned up while the cell temperature is less than
75C or so.  We have never seen both electrodes displaying the effect at the
same time.
 
> By the way, the Kellogg paper is required reading for anyone who
seriously
> wants to replicate this experiment.
> 
Scott Little:
> 
>      This will not be trivial as we have to get the cell to operate
steadily
>      for at least an hour (or two) to get a decent reading from it.
> 
No kidding.  Any suggestions you have in building a rugged W electrode
would be appreciated.

> From what I have seen, this will be impossible at this stage in the
> development. The electrolyte will boil off or the cathode will shake
itself to
> pieces. With this experiment is that you have to watch the cathode to
make
> sure the effect is still on, and you can only run it for a short time
before
> the device self-destructs. So you cannot put the experiment in a proper
> calorimeter. It might take months or years before we learn to trigger the
> effect reliably in a place we cannot see, and make sure it continues for
more
> than five minutes.
> 
> Also it is essential that you recombine the gas. Mike Schaffer
recommended a
> good way to do this. You might use a spark plug. It is robust and it
works
> practically anywhere. Run the calorimeter for a half-day with the spark
plug
> alone to see if it adds significant heat.
> 
Once we get repeatable boil-off results, I may start on this.
> 
>      I am therefore curious as to the present status of the research
efforts
>      of the other investigators of this phenomenon.  Gene?  the Bahamas?
> 
I am also curious.  How do you plan to measure input power, Scott?

Ed

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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:41:22 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: thermodynamics problem
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One of Joule's experiments showed that a gas undergoing a "free expansion",
in which no work is done by the gas, does not change in temperature.
Strictly speaking this is true only for an ideal gas.  Real gases either
heat or cool upon expansion as observed later by Joule and Thompson.

Assuming an ideal gas, consider a 1 liter cylinder with a close-fitting
piston.  An external agent pushes the piston down the cylinder expelling
the gas inside through a small orifice.  During the stroke the pressure of
the gas in the cylinder is 2 atmospheres.  The gas is expelled from the
cylinder into the laboratory which is at one atmosphere pressure.  

The 1 liter of gas at 2 atmospheres inside the cylinder expands upon
leaving the orifice to 2 liters of gas at 1 atmosphere.  Thus the P*V
product of this gas remains the same before and after it goes thru the
orifice.  According to Joule's experiment, the temperature of this gas does
not change as it goes thru the orifice.

Can someone please help me figure out where the work done by the external
agent (202.65 joules in this example) ends up?

Thanks



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 12 08:10:05 1998
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: incandescent W
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At 10:10 8/12/98 -0300, Ed Wall wrote:

>We have repeatedly seen the Pt anode develop the same sort of effect.  It
>occurs if the voltage is turned up while the cell temperature is less than
>75C or so.  We have never seen both electrodes displaying the effect at the
>same time.

I'm presently using a large-area Pt anode and a small-area W cathode.  This
appears to keep the effect located at the cathode. 

>No kidding.  Any suggestions you have in building a rugged W electrode
>would be appreciated.

The W welding rod seems to be the way to go....except that it is consumed
at a significant rate.  I may have to devise a method of feeding it in to
the cell (like carbon rods are fed into arc lamps).  BTW, since the W is
cathodic in this cell, I'm guessing that the erosion is due to the action
of the arc discharges...sort of an uncontrolled form of EDM
(electrical-discharge machining).

>I am also curious.  How do you plan to measure input power, Scott?

I'm going to use our Clarke-Hess 2330 power analyzer.  It has a >400 kHz
bandwidth and a power integration (energy) feature that should handle the
erratic power signal properly.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 12 08:39:55 1998
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Subject: Re: incandescent W
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>At 06:00 PM 8/11/98 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote:
>
>>The power input is large, about 50 watt. Isn't this enough to reach
>>equilibrium in your calorimeter in less time?
>
>I'm confused. The time constant is RC.  R (degrees/watt) is the thermal
>coupling between the cell and the flowing water and C (joules/degree) is
>the heat capacity of the cell.  How does the input power affect the equil
>time?

I was assuming that at the higher power you would have to increase the heat
transfer surface inside your (flow) calorimeter and also increase the water
flow rate through it. These measures would have the effect of reducing your
thermal resistance and also the time constant. You could also have a heater
in the electrolyte. It seems like Gene and Ed preheat their systems, so
preheating can't be a disqualifying change of protocol. In your case, you
would preheat the cell to the expected operating temperature and keep it
there for long enough for your calorimeter to come into steady state. Then,
when you switch over to the arc run, you will be taking good data.

>BTW, I'm using a 1/16" dia pure W welding rod with about 1/2" of it exposed
>(the rest is sleeved in Teflon).

I thought of suggesting this (a long W rod that doubles as electrode and
lead wire, thereby eliminating the wire-to electrode crimp that has been
causing people trouble). However, I then thought that the hot W electrode
would melt or decompose any easy insulating sleeve I could thing of, so I
didn't suggest it. Scott, does the Teflon remain intact?

>I like the spark idea.  I think my regular catalyst pellets may not survive
>the spashing that goes on inside the cell.  Of course, the glass cell may
>not survive the spark-ignited explosions...

Yes. Metal chamber with thick window?

If you use glass, you can reduce the pressure rise of the H2 + O2
combustion by getting rid of other gasses and running at a stoichiometric
ratio. Vent the system for a while initially, to get rid of N2 and excess
O2 that results from any H entering metals. Then close the vent. Any
subsequent gas accumulation should be from electrolysis and, therefore,
stoichiometric. Pulse the spark frequently, to combust the gases before
their pressure builds up.  H2 + O2 ignites and burns readily at low
pressure. You should find the system actually running well below
atmospheric pressure. Hmm. Low pressure will change the arc discharge
characteristics. You might have to compromise on the running pressure. Use
thick wall glass.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


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Subject: Re: incandescent W
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At 10:08 AM 8/12/98 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>The W welding rod seems to be the way to go....except that it is consumed
>at a significant rate.  I may have to devise a method of feeding it in to
>the cell (like carbon rods are fed into arc lamps).  BTW, since the W is
>cathodic in this cell, I'm guessing that the erosion is due to the action
>of the arc discharges...sort of an uncontrolled form of EDM
>(electrical-discharge machining).

   Wow!  A new use for old technologies (feeders for carbon arcs).

   Three possibilites:

   1) Solenoid method.  Current to the arc/electrode passes through a
solenoid which lifts the electrode out of the solution.  With a good
damping pot, you can get a good feed this way.

   2) Constant rate feed drive.  Not too bad in arc lamps, but might be
unstable rather than stable here.  If the feed rate is too low, does the
electrode get eaten faster?

   3) Servo control.  Various versions were patented in the fifties, but
those patents are all expired by now.  In any case, for what you are doing,
the easiest thing to do would be to put a software control law in your
monitoring computer, and have it power a feeder motor.  You shouldn't need
to reverse directions...

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 12 09:26:41 1998
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>     If I hadn't already been informed that this phenomenon was really cold
>     fusion, I would probably conclude that it is just an interesting
>     electrical conduction phenomenon that occurs during high-current
>     electrolysis.

That would have been my reaction, too. After all, it is just plasma physics
in a different environment (but not different to the divers that do
underwater arc welding). I can understand the cathode effect, but I have
not thought my way self consistnetly through the anode effect, yet.

I haven't had time to look up Kellog, yet. Does he explain the physics, or
just describe phenomena that were not understood?

>It is far too early for anyone to claim this is "really cold fusion"!!! You
>have been informed that this might be an o-u phenomenon, and it might
>possibly have some connection with CF. Everything is still preliminary.
>I am sure I speak for Mallove, Wall, Ohmori and Mizuno on that score.

Well, Ohmori and Mizuno in their paper and at ICCF7, sure made strong
claims for "...supports strongly that some nuclear reaction occurred during
the electrolysis". Their theory (in their paper) makes a physicist cringe;
I didn't count, but it takes more than the usual three miracles.

I agree with Srinivasan's observation at ICCF7, that the large neutron
detector signal was probably just electromagnetic noise. I raised this
question again with both Ohmori and Mizuno at their respective posters at
the meeting. Both agreed that it was probably noise. Therefore, it is
shocking (to a scientist like myself) to see the same claims repeated in
their printed paper. One does not publish errors knowingly. Other
statements in their paper convince me that these scientists, whom I used to
respect, a) do not know how to operate electronic instruments, and b) know
very little physics. This combination of gaps of knowledge leave their
experiments very open to artifacts.

Still, let's try the experiment. But let's do a good experiment.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


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Subject: Re: incandescent W
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To: Vortex

Scott Little writes:

     I'm confused. The time constant is RC.  R (degrees/watt) is the thermal
     coupling between the cell and the flowing water and C (joules/degree) is
     the heat capacity of the cell.  How does the input power affect the
     equil time?

Umm . . . Higher power makes the time longer. Right?


     Of course, the glass cell may not survive the spark-ignited
     explosions...

I hope that is heavy, shatterproof glass under a lab hood. Pyrex, maybe? This
experiment requires CAUTION.

I mentioned that Cravens says the cell has to make a particular noise or you
get no heat. Scott responds sensibly:

     Good.  It just wouldn't feel right to do an experiment where there
     wasn't a readily available excuse for dismissing negative results as
     meaningless.

Amen. Any experiment can be botched, so it is always nice to have an easy out:
a ready excuse. You can point to the French AEC and say, "see, they couldn't
do it! It can't be easy." And indeed nothing is easy. Things seem easy in
retrospect, or when other people make them easy by doing most of the work.
Making a pizza, for example, would be difficult if you started by growing
wheat and butchering a pig to make the pepperoni. My daughter and I spent an
hour recently trying to light a fire with an antique flint and iron. A 10
year old kid back in 1750 could have done it on the first try.


This is a theme I come back to more and more as I read history. Experiments
are NEVER easy. After Newton announced the prism rainbow effect, controversy
raged for years as people botched the experiment. People replicated things
like the X-Ray and the HTSC quickly because there were many skilled people
primed & ready, and anxious to try. Vacuum tubes were on the cutting edge of
science in 1895. When Hitachi comes up with a new memory chip, Toshiba and IBM
experts will jump in and swiftly replicate it. If there was no commercial
silicon chip industry, and no cadres of experts standing by, it would take 10
years to never to replicate that chip. This is what I was talking about the
other day when I pointed out that automobiles were once as difficult as
personal computers are today. The comparison between computers and automobiles
is funny, but it should also be thought-provoking. The conclusions most people
draw from the comparison are 100% incorrect. Cars are NOT inherently easy.
Look at transmissions, clutches, valve seals, radiators! Talk about wasteful,
improbable kludges! It is astounding that a clutch will last through 50,000
miles of city driving. It is a triumph of engineering that makes cold fusion
materials problems look solvable. We *made* cars easy and reliable,
gradually, over a century of development, after spending something like a
trillion dollars on R&D. Thirty years into the automobile age, cars were no
better than computers circa 1980.

Anyone who thinks it will be easy to design a rugged tungsten cathode that
survives for a half-hour, or to make the experiment work automatically inside
a calorimeter where it cannot be seen . . . has no earthly notion what is
going on. That's like saying we'll come up with a 15% efficient photovoltaic
that lasts 20 years. Not on our own, we won't! There is no way Ohmori, Mizuno,
Mallove, Wall, Little and two dozen others could do this sort of thing on
their own, without funding, and without a bunch of competing formal,
large-scale R&D programs, like the ones needed to extend the life of
photovoltaics. I expect it would take millions of dollars, perhaps billions.
Working on a shoestring, Ohmori et al. can map out the problem space and
demonstrate what will be needed for real development projects. If they work
very hard and they are very lucky they might show convincing proof that the
on-again, off-again excess heat is real. They might put together some demo
cells that can be operated with great difficulty by experts. If everything
goes perfectly, they will publish a challenging protocol that will allow
others to see the effect from time to time, which will spur interest in the
field. That's our best hope. The only way this will be brought to the easy,
practical, anyone-can-replicate stage will be after 150,000 people work on it
frantically for a couple of years. That is what happened with previous
discoveries like incandescent lights, bicycles, automobiles, radio, airplanes,
computers, photovoltaics and so on.

Perhaps someone, someday may come up with excess energy device that can be
easily replicated and rapidly developed in mom-and-pop basement labs. This
ain't it.

Scott concludes:

     BTW, my cell makes lots of really amazing noises...one wonders how the
     glass remains intact.

Yes! And one also wonders: What do those noises mean? What effect they are
having on the cathode and electrolyte? What is the full spectrum noise,
including ultrasound? Is it causing cavitation damage, or CF loading? How can
you measure the sounds? The noise may be critical, as Cravens suggests, or it
might be meaningless . . . noise. We do not know, and this one aspect of the
experiment might require a team of experts to explore.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 12 09:38:49 1998
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: thermodynamics problem
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At 9:41 AM 8/12/98, Scott Little wrote:
>One of Joule's experiments showed that a gas undergoing a "free expansion",
>in which no work is done by the gas, does not change in temperature.
>Strictly speaking this is true only for an ideal gas.  Real gases either
>heat or cool upon expansion as observed later by Joule and Thompson.
>
>Assuming an ideal gas, consider a 1 liter cylinder with a close-fitting
>piston.  An external agent pushes the piston down the cylinder expelling
>the gas inside through a small orifice.  During the stroke the pressure of
>the gas in the cylinder is 2 atmospheres.  The gas is expelled from the
>cylinder into the laboratory which is at one atmosphere pressure.
>
>The 1 liter of gas at 2 atmospheres inside the cylinder expands upon
>leaving the orifice to 2 liters of gas at 1 atmosphere.  Thus the P*V
>product of this gas remains the same before and after it goes thru the
>orifice.  According to Joule's experiment, the temperature of this gas does
>not change as it goes thru the orifice.
>
>Can someone please help me figure out where the work done by the external
>agent (202.65 joules in this example) ends up?
>
>Thanks
>

I suggest it ends up as friction heating of the nozzel and cylinder. Note
that going from the initial state to tthe final state, assuming a
frictionless piston, requires no work.  If you open the nozzel at 2
atmospheres pressure it take no work from the piston to go to the state
where there is 1 liter at 1 atmosphere in the cylinder. Assuming no
friction, it takes no work to expell the final 1 liter at atmospheric
pressure.  Therefore, no work is required of the piston to go from the
initial to the final state, provided the rate of the piston motion is
sufficiently slow.  The amount of heat transferred to the nozzel, etc., is
dependent only on the *rate* at which the gas is expelled. Note that if the
rate of piston motion declines the amount of work also declines due to the
fact the state change, given enough time, takes place naturally, thus is
happening at some finite rate at any state except the final state.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: thermodynamics problem
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Scott Little asks:
>Assuming an ideal gas, consider a 1 liter cylinder with a close-fitting
>piston.  An external agent pushes the piston down the cylinder expelling
>the gas inside through a small orifice.  During the stroke the pressure of
>the gas in the cylinder is 2 atmospheres.  The gas is expelled from the
>cylinder into the laboratory which is at one atmosphere pressure.
>
>The 1 liter of gas at 2 atmospheres inside the cylinder expands upon
>leaving the orifice to 2 liters of gas at 1 atmosphere.  Thus the P*V
>product of this gas remains the same before and after it goes thru the
>orifice.  According to Joule's experiment, the temperature of this gas does
>not change as it goes thru the orifice.
>
>Can someone please help me figure out where the work done by the external
>agent (202.65 joules in this example) ends up?

The work done by the external agent on the gas in the cylinder ends up as
work done on the 1 atm reservoir. The reservoir has to make room for 2
liters of gas. Details depend on how this reservoir is constructed. If it
is another cylinder with piston, then that piston has to move outward by 2
liters to maintain the reservoir pressure constant, and the work is done on
the esternal agent that maintains the constant force on the reservoir
piston. If it is, say, earth's atmosphere, then it all gets lifted against
gravity to make room for the 2 liters.

If, on the other hand, the reservoir is closed, no work can be done on an
external agent. Instead, the reservoir pressure increases when the 2 liters
are added to it. The reservoir gas gets compressed. Even though the
pressure rise is small in a large reservoir, the volume is large, and the
increase in the total internal energy of the reservoir gas matches the work
done by the piston in the small cylinder.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


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I wrote: "I suggest it ends up as friction heating of the nozzel and
cylinder. Note that going from the initial state to tthe final state,
assuming a frictionless piston, requires no work.  If you open the nozzel
at 2 atmospheres pressure it take no work from the piston to go to the
state where there is 1 liter at 1 atmosphere in the cylinder. Assuming no
friction, it takes no work to expell the final 1 liter at atmospheric
pressure.  Therefore, no work is required of the piston to go from the
initial to the final state, provided the rate of the piston motion is
sufficiently slow.  The amount of heat transferred to the nozzel, etc., is
dependent only on the *rate* at which the gas is expelled. Note that if the
rate of piston motion declines the amount of work also declines due to the
fact the state change, given enough time, takes place naturally, thus is
happening at some finite rate at any state except the final state."

I should have also noted that the expelled gas will be hotter as well, due
to the momentum of being expelled, plus heat transfer from the nozzel and
cylider walls.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 12 09:50:03 1998
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: incandescent W
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At 21:51 8/11/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Also it is essential that you recombine the gas.

Seems like it would be sufficient to simply account for the caloric value
of the escaping gas...provided we actually measure the quantity of escaping
gas (after removing the water vapor with a cold trap).



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 12 09:56:59 1998
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: thermodynamics problem
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At 9:42 AM 8/12/98, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote:
[snip]
>The work done by the external agent on the gas in the cylinder ends up as
>work done on the 1 atm reservoir. The reservoir has to make room for 2
>liters of gas. Details depend on how this reservoir is constructed. If it
>is another cylinder with piston, then that piston has to move outward by 2
>liters to maintain the reservoir pressure constant, and the work is done on
>the esternal agent that maintains the constant force on the reservoir
>piston. If it is, say, earth's atmosphere, then it all gets lifted against
>gravity to make room for the 2 liters.
>
>If, on the other hand, the reservoir is closed, no work can be done on an
>external agent. Instead, the reservoir pressure increases when the 2 liters
>are added to it. The reservoir gas gets compressed. Even though the
>pressure rise is small in a large reservoir, the volume is large, and the
>increase in the total internal energy of the reservoir gas matches the work
>done by the piston in the small cylinder.


It seems reasonable to assume that the back side of the piston is exposed
to the external reservoir, thus no change in volume to the external
reservoir occurs.  As the piston moves forward, the external volume remains
constant betweenn the initial and gfinal state provided the cylinder is 2
liters at 1 atmos. intitially and the cylinder compresses the gas to 1
liter at 2 atmos. before the nozzel is opened.  Work is done on the system
by the piston motion and that work ends up as heat, even the work done
going from the 1 liter volume to zero volume, but the amount of work done
is a function of the rate at which the work is done, i.e. how big a nozzel
is used and how fast the cylinder moves.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 12 10:15:06 1998
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Subject: Re: incandescent W
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At 12:15 8/12/98 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote:

<snip rod feeder stuff>

>   3) Servo control.

Thanks, Robert.  I think this is what we'll go with...using the
sophisticated hybrid analog-digital servo controller known as a human
being....<g>

Scott

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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: thermodynamics problem
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At 08:49 8/12/98 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:

>Note that going from the initial state to tthe final state,
>assuming a frictionless piston, requires no work.  If you open the nozzel
>at 2 atmospheres pressure it take no work from the piston to go to the
>state where there is 1 liter at 1 atmosphere in the cylinder.

This seems like a very significant point that I had missed.

Mike S said:

>The work done by the external agent on the gas in the cylinder ends up as
>work done on the 1 atm reservoir. The reservoir has to make room for 2
>liters of gas. Details depend on how this reservoir is constructed. If it
>is another cylinder with piston, then that piston has to move outward by 2
>liters to maintain the reservoir pressure constant...

This is where I was going, Mike, when I realized that the second piston
(frictionless) could move outward with zero force since the atmosphere
stays at 1 atm.  I didn't think about raising the entire atmosphere of the
Earth....but maybe that IS the answer.

Is your answer consistent with Horace's?




Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 12 10:35:46 1998
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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:31:34 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: thermodynamics problem
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Scott,

You've done work against the external enivronment.. Can't look at the 
other responses yet as network is v. slow, spend for ever downloading. 
Sorry for typos, type ahead.
Remi.

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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: thermodynamics problem
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Oh!

further to your problem, if the atmosphere behaves ideally too, then the 
piston would compress and store the energy and release the energy once 
the constraint is released. It would act conservatively.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 12 11:55:26 1998
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Subject: Re: incandescent W
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>From Scott:

> Ed Wall wrote:
> 
> >No kidding.  Any suggestions you have in building a rugged W electrode
> >would be appreciated.
> 
> The W welding rod seems to be the way to go....except that it is consumed
> at a significant rate.  I may have to devise a method of feeding it in to
> the cell (like carbon rods are fed into arc lamps).  BTW, since the W is
> cathodic in this cell, I'm guessing that the erosion is due to the action
> of the arc discharges...sort of an uncontrolled form of EDM
> (electrical-discharge machining).
>  
This may well serve as an (unintentional) ignitor for the electrolysis
gasses, as the splashing solution will briefly leave exposed the
incandescent W.

I have been thinking of using pulsed DC to see if I can get any resonant
response.  The rise times could be important.  Cravens should be consulted.

Ed Wall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 12 11:56:44 1998
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Subject: Re: incandescent W
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>At 21:51 8/11/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>>Also it is essential that you recombine the gas.
>
>Seems like it would be sufficient to simply account for the caloric value
>of the escaping gas...provided we actually measure the quantity of escaping
>gas (after removing the water vapor with a cold trap).

It should be simple to condense it.  Just set up a flow through for the
water in the system, with a two sided resevoir so that you pour the fluid
through from one side and out to the other resevoir (2 resevoirs, one on
each side of the system, connected by rubber hoses.  Just lift one and lower
the other to flow one way, then reverse that to flow the other way.

Meantime, in chemistry they have off the shelf glass condensors already
blown to keep gases from boiling out of a system.  Normally, you use really
cold water flowing around the coils, but you ought to be able to just use a
similar set up with two containers that flow back and forth through the set
up.  That way, you can measure delta T for your cold "condensing" cooling
water, and you can measure delta T for your hot side.  Then it is calories
per .......... and you have total heat gain vs time of operation and input
power.

Then, figure out all the ugly chemical things that are also going on and
exothermic, and back those out and you should be there.  But with the above,
you can elimiate the lost gases by condensing them back into the system, and
measuring the temperature rise in the condensing water to determine the heat
gain for that part of the set up.

Neglecting the gravitational energy of lifting the resevoirs, you pretty
well have it (or can calculate that energy gain too if you want, as it will
show up due to frictional losses in falling).

Ross Tessien


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 12 13:04:53 1998
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Subject: Re: incandescent W
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To: Vortex

I wrote that I think it is essential you recombine the gas. Scott Little
responds:

     Seems like it would be sufficient to simply account for the caloric
     value of the escaping gas...provided we actually measure the quantity of
     escaping gas (after removing the water vapor with a cold trap).

I am afraid this would be difficult and inaccurate. You can measure gas with a
flowmeter or by letting the gas fill a closed cylinder and raise the pressure.
Both methods are expensive. A closed cylinder has limited capacity and it will
probably leak. Flowmeters of any kind are not to be trusted. The problem is
that a tiny amount of free O2 and H2 gas will carry off a lot of energy --
much more than water vapor, for example. So you have to measure the gas
precisely. The other problem is that we do not know how much gas there will be
so you cannot estimate the right answer in advance, the way you can with
conventional CF. The high temperatures probably fracture the water, adding to
electrolysis gases. On the other hand, the violent roiling of the water might
promote recombination within the cell by transporting O2 to the cathode, and I
do not know how much of the power goes into electrolysis under these extreme
conditions.

It is a tough problem, best avoided. I think a spark will recombine nearly all
free gas.

Michael Schaffer writes:

     If you use glass, you can reduce the pressure rise of the H2 + O2
     combustion by getting rid of other gasses and running at a
     stoichiometric ratio. Vent the system for a while initially, to get rid
     of N2 and excess O2 that results from any H entering metals. Then close
     the vent. . . .You should find the system actually running well below
     atmospheric pressure. Hmm. Low pressure will change the arc discharge
     characteristics.

I do not see how you can avoid high pressure from water vapor. The flow
calorimeter will act as a heat exchanger but the water will still be boiling
and I suppose after you close the vent steam pressure will build up . . .
which might stop the boiling, and screw up the experiment too for all we know.

Elsewhere, Mike writes:

     Well, Ohmori and Mizuno in their paper and at ICCF7, sure made strong
     claims for "...supports strongly that some nuclear reaction occurred
     during the electrolysis". . . .

I think this is a language problem. I am sure they regard this as a
preliminary result. I would say it is "strong" meaning obvious or pronounced,
but it might well be wrong. It is like Mallove and Wall's calorimetry results.

     I agree with Srinivasan's observation at ICCF7, that the large neutron
     detector signal was probably just electromagnetic noise. I raised this
     question again with both Ohmori and Mizuno at their respective posters
     at the meeting. Both agreed that it was probably noise. Therefore, it is
     shocking (to a scientist like myself) to see the same claims repeated in
     their printed paper.

Perhaps they disagree with Srinivasan? Or perhaps they think it probably
noise, but then again it may not be, and for now they want to report what they
observed and let the reader judge. They did take *some* precautions to
eliminate noise. (I do not know the details.) I think this "probably noise"
argument gets tossed around a little too easily. At ICCF7 Tom Claytor made an
off-hand remark to me about Iwamura (Mitsubishi). He said the NaI scintillator
results look like noise. I asked Iwamura about this and he gave me a whole
slew of reasons why it probably isn't noise, such as the fact that the signal
was picked up by two detectors but not by the third, shielded detector. He
cited various other cross checks and statistical proofs which are over my
head. I cannot judge this issue, but I do not think Claytor discussed the
issue with Iwamura in depth. Despite my great respect for Claytor, I think in
this case he flippantly dismissed the evidence.


     One does not publish errors knowingly.

One does not necessarily agree with critics, and immediately retract every
claim the moment someone questions it. This may also be a language problem.
They may not have had time to amend the paper. If they wanted to retract or
add some cautionary notes, O&M should asked me for assistance. The final
deadline for papers was a few days after Ohmori got back to Japan. Mizuno took
a short vacation in Canada and missed it, I believe.

A cultural misunderstanding may arise when an American, Schaffer, talks to a
Japanese scientist. The Japanese will nod and make polite noises, but he may
not agree. In Japan it is considered impolite to argue with someone you have
just met, or with friend when the conversation begins, or in public. Of course
scientific training and customs override this social convention, but perhaps
not as much as an American scientist would expect.


     Other statements in their paper convince me that these scientists, whom
     I used to respect, a) do not know how to operate electronic instruments,
     and b) know very little physics. This combination of gaps of knowledge
     leave their experiments very open to artifacts.

Hmm m m . . . If I stopped respecting every scientist I know who has made
stupid mistakes, or who occasionally got in over his head, or who has made
long-term bad planning and stuck with the plan for too long . . . I would find
no scientists left to respect. None today and none in history. Newton wasted
his last decades screwing around with alchemy. Einstein was hired by the
government during WWII to evaluate weapons and R&D ideas. Despite his
background in the patent office his comments were idiotic, in my opinion.
Edison wasted many years and a large part of his fortune on magnetic
separation of ores, which was uneconomical and impractical. Pons and
Fleischmann screwed up the nuclear measurements with a BF3 counter. Many
nuclear scientists made Really Stupendous Mistakes in calorimetry and
electrochemistry. Lewis at Caltech is one of the top U.S. electrochemists, but
he made an silly error in calorimetry. When the cell began producing excess
heat he thought the cell constant was changing instead. McKubre spent years
working with a calorimeter design which Pons and Fleischmann, Cravens and
others warned him will quench the reaction. He acknowledged the problem years
ago at ICCF4. Claytor, as I said, was probably too quick to dismiss Iwamura.

Elliot Kennel appears to know a great deal about helium detection, neutrons
and nuclear issues, but you cannot trust his judgement when it comes to
calorimetry. He made some confused claims here recently: ". . . at high
deuterium loading, a state change occurs in the surface of the cathode which
causes the open-circuit voltage . . . to increase. Under this condition, there
is a higher percentage of thermal energy generated at the cathode, and less in
the electrolyte.  This changes the calibration coefficient of the cell and
results in an excess heat signal. . . ." As I pointed out in response: "The
changes in material that affect the OCV are microscopic. It is difficult to
imagine how these tiny spots could accomplish what you claim. How would they
send a message to the electrolyte to lower its impedance, and to the anode to
stop making so much heat, thus changing the percentages?" . . . and even if
the heat did magically shift to the cathode, it would have no affect on the
thermocouples, because they are placed far away so they can be calibrated with
a joule heater.

Few CF scientists are constantly brilliant in all aspects of the work. Miles,
Mellich, Oriani and Bockris come to mind. Bockris has certainly done his share
of controversial questionable work in alchemy.

I cannot judge Ohmori and Mizuno's ability to operate electronic instruments
or their knowledge of physics. My impression is that nobody knows physics.
Take a simple question, like "what holds protons together?" or "What does not
hold them together; why do some nuclei fall apart in radioactive decay?" Ask
three physicists. They will give you five answers and spend the rest of the
day arguing amongst themselves. I expect that Ohmori and Mizuno understand
conventional electrochemical physics like the Nernst equations. Perhaps when
they step outside the standard physics and try to develop new ideas they lose
track. This is a common problem. Perhaps they know a great deal more about
physics than Schaffer does, but they do not explain themselves well in English
and he does not follow their arguments.

Anyway, I think Schaffer should rephrase this:

     Other statements in their paper convince me that these scientists, for
     whom I have diminished respect, a) do not know how to operate neutron
     detection instruments, and b) cannot extend standard physics to explain
     new phenomena. I think their present experiments are very open to
     artifacts. They think so too, they said so at ICCF7, and they intend to
     correct these problems. I no longer trust all aspects of their work,
     although their electrochemistry is okay as far as I know, the
     calorimetry is fine, and the earlier transmutation results were
     independently confirmed in blind tests by four different corporate
     laboratories, so O&M's competence is not an issue.

In other words, I would say they are good at some things but not others. Some
of their experiments are good, and some are bad. So it is important to learn
their strengths and weaknesses when you judge their work. Is there any person
on earth you would *not* say that about?

Because you can never fully trust any one scientist, no matter how brilliant,
you cannot believe a result until it has been widely replicated.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 12 13:06:52 1998
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From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: thermodynamics problem
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Scott Little wrote:
>Is your answer consistent with Horace's?

No. Horace focusses on a lossy nozzle and on varying pressures in the first
(2 atm) chamber. He changed your problem all around.

Re the nozzle: In these idealized problems, one typically assumes that all
components are ideal; Scott did not specify otherwise, so that's what I
assumed. Actually, real nozzles can be pretty efficient. So, I assumed an
ideal adiabatic nozzle; It neither adds nor removes energy. In detail, gas
flowing through the nozzle expands and cools, thereby losing internal
energy. At the same time, that lost internal energy is converted into
kinetic energy of the directed gas jet. Later, in the large volume, the
directed jet is slowed and its kinetic energy dissipated back into heat.
Such a detailed calculation is harder than the argument I gave in my first
post. Thermodynamics assures us that both simple and complicated analyses
all have to come to the same answer in the end.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 12 14:29:57 1998
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To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: 1st  Little Critque (incandescent W)
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To: Vortex

Seems more like a weasel in the hen house  trying to catch all the Little
Chickens at once.   :-)

A lot to see in the use of DRY H2/D2 & incandescent W, without CREATING all
of the H2/O2 problems that the KNO3 "catalyst" created.

In Thermionic Converters the alkalis (K or Cs)lower the Work Function of the
W so that more electrons "boil off", and also lower the Space Charge
Potential. The Hot W also dissociates the H2/D2 to H and D "free radicals".

A collision of an 0.5-1.0 ev THERMAL ELECTRON with H or D should produce the
Species that Mills calls a Hydrino/Deutrino or I call a short-lived
Quasi-Neutron/QuasiDiNeutron.

>From there on, you will have CF Heat, and Transmutation reactions with the
W, possibly enough reactions to make a Thermionic Converter Type Device
Self-Sustaining, provided there is sufficient emitter/collector area.

So There!   :-)

Regards,    Frederick


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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
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To: Vortex

I am typing parts of the Kellogg paper. I'll upload it tomorrow. Unfortunately
it is too old to scan.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 12 15:33:11 1998
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: thermodynamics problem
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At 12:31 PM 8/12/98, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote:
>Scott Little wrote:
>>Is your answer consistent with Horace's?
>
>No. Horace focusses on a lossy nozzle and on varying pressures in the first
>(2 atm) chamber. He changed your problem all around.


Apologies for my initial focus on the heat from friction at the nozzel, as
that is from the practical and not the theoretical viewpoint.  Later
discussion assumed an ideal nozzle and frictionless device.

However, the I still think the notion of the external chamber presssure
having access to the back of the piston is a useful (and typical) concept.
Also, it was not my intent to change the problem all around when
considering a possible preceeding state in order to more fully understand
where the power stroke energy is going.  By power stroke I mean the stroke
that maintains 2 atmospheres pressure while the nozzle is open.  It is an
important distinction that the energy is not all going into compressing the
secondary compartment gas, but rather there is an energy component based on
both the rate of motion of the piston and nozzle size, i.e. based on nozzle
velocity, that determines the amount of heat created from the power stroke.
These components were not specifed so pointing out their importance to
understanding the problem is essential.

I think I assumed the correct conditions during the power stroke, i.e.
while p is two atmospheres and the piston moves at constant velocity while
maintaining constant pressure, as Scott laid them out.  The fact I looked
back at supposed prior conition adds to the problem definition, but does
not change it.  The important point highlighted by this adding of a prior
state (P = 1 atm, v = 2 l) is that it is more clear that *all* the energy
expended in the power stroke ends up as net heat in the final state vs
initial state.  The source of that heat is the kinetic energy that must be
imparted to the gas to get it to move through the nozzel at a velocity
sufficient to maintain simultaneously the cylinder pressure and the piston
motion.

However, given all that, and now looking outside the problem definition, it
is then clear that if you increase nozzle velocity you increase the heat in
the final state.  It is also clear that as piston velocity approaches zero
the energy produced by the power stroke goes to zero.  All the energy put
into the power stoke is manifest as the kinetic energy of the expelled gas.


>
>Re the nozzle: In these idealized problems, one typically assumes that all
>components are ideal; Scott did not specify otherwise, so that's what I
>assumed. Actually, real nozzles can be pretty efficient. So, I assumed an
>ideal adiabatic nozzle; It neither adds nor removes energy. In detail, gas
>flowing through the nozzle expands and cools, thereby losing internal
>energy. At the same time, that lost internal energy is converted into
>kinetic energy of the directed gas jet.


The point I was making was attempting to make earlier is that *all
additional energy* applied by the moving piston ends up as kinetic energy
of the directed gas jet, and thus heat in the secondary compartment. I
think this is Scott's "missing" energy.


>Later, in the large volume, the
>directed jet is slowed and its kinetic energy dissipated back into heat.
>Such a detailed calculation is harder than the argument I gave in my first
>post.


No calculation is necessary to see the point if you assume the initial
conditions P=1 atm, vol = 2 l. Then it is easy to see that the initial two
volumes are combined into a final volume equal to the sum of the two
initial volumes, but with more heat content.  The energy in the resulting
extra heat and pressure is equivalent to the energy in the power stroke.
Because the total gas volume is unchanged, it is clear that the extra
pressure is strictly due to the extra heat.

>Thermodynamics assures us that both simple and complicated analyses
>all have to come to the same answer in the end.




Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 12 16:05:49 1998
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Subject: Re: incandescent W
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At 08:37 8/12/98 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote:

>However, I then thought that the hot W electrode
>would melt or decompose any easy insulating sleeve I could thing of, so I
>didn't suggest it. Scott, does the Teflon remain intact?

Not really.  It's definitely getting charred right at the end of the
sleeve.  It doesn't seem to be melting back, though.

We'll see how it works when the hour-long runs get underway.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 12 16:07:59 1998
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At 12:16 PM 8/12/98 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>   3) Servo control.
>Thanks, Robert.  I think this is what we'll go with...using the
>sophisticated hybrid analog-digital servo controller known as a human
>being....<g>

    If you are not using a solenoid and dashpot, a screw drive is best,
even if it is driven by a human with an insulated screwdriver...

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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At 15:23 8/12/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

>>From there on, you will have CF Heat, and Transmutation reactions with the
>W....

I like all your cool experiment ideas, Fred, but when I weigh them against
experiments that have already been performed and are reported to be o-u,
the latter always win out.  On the other hand, the latter have also never
panned out, either...yet.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 12 16:15:43 1998
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At 17:53 8/12/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>To: Vortex
>
>I am typing parts of the Kellogg paper. I'll upload it tomorrow.
Unfortunately
>it is too old to scan.

Great.  

I just talked to Cravens.  Basically he said to turn up the voltage until
the cell goes Wha-wha-wha (hint: use the voice of Marge Simpson's sisters
to simulate this noise) and then turn it down just a bit.  He gets only
8-15% excess heat.  He also never runs the cathode to incandescence, partly
because he uses huge W rods.  He just runs with the sparkly dancing
electrical fire.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 12 16:23:16 1998
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From: SciBorg8 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 19:20:03 EDT
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So what are all of your plans for what you would do with your free energy
technology? 

Eric

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-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; Vortex-L
<vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: George <gsparb juno.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: 1st Little Critque (incandescent W)


>At 15:23 8/12/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>
>>>From there on, you will have CF Heat, and Transmutation reactions with
the
>>W....
>
>I like all your cool experiment ideas, Fred, but when I weigh them against
>experiments that have already been performed and are reported to be o-u,
>the latter always win out.

Performed by Scott Little, you mean? I'd be willing to bet you would get nil
results on
POSITIVE Hot Fusion experiments that were proven decades ago, Scott. Every
time you gert an experiment up to where it requires some dendrites you drop
it and try disproving something else.

FJS


  On the other hand, the latter have also never
>panned out, either...yet.
>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
>
>

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From: inet intellisys.net (brian whatcott)
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Subject: Re: Over Unity Cold Fusion Experiment
Date: 10 Aug 1998 03:56:57 GMT
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On Sat, 08 Aug 1998 02:56:45 -0600, Mitchell Jones,mjones jump.net 
says...
>
>... there is an article
>in the most recent issue of *Infinite Energy*... describing a variant of the 
Pons-Fleischmann
>setup... this experiment is consistently replicable, allowing virtually
>everyone to get "over unity" results. Or so it is claimed.

>...suppose that you boiled off 100 gms of water
>in a period of 50 minutes (3000 sec). In that case, Power out  =
>[(2260)(100)]/3000 = 75.3 joules/sec = 75.3 watts. If you  averaged .3
>amps at 160 volts, then power in = 48 watts, and the COP = (75.3)/48 =
>1.57, which is apparently about average for this setup

>... the
>tungsten in the cathode, according to the article, shows signs of melting
>at the end of some runs.
>... buy a transformer to step 120
>volt AC up to 240, then run the 240 into a big dimmer switch to drop the
>voltage back down to various levels, then feed the output through a
>full-wave bridge. (This kluge is recommended by the article.)...

The principal objection to this experimental setup is the clear invitation to 
misconstrue the electrical power input by bridge rectification of AC then 
reading its voltage with a digital voltmeter.
   This can lead to an error of 1/1.4 which is the same order as the observed 
"gain"

Another consideration is the evolution of combustible gas and oxidizer.
If electrical power has both a resistive power dissipation route, and
is also a means of providing fuel or oxidizer, its heating contribution  may be 
understated.

Brian Whatcott     Altus OK


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(http://www.aa.washington.edu/faculty/



Reiner Decher
Professor (Adjunct in Civil Engineering)=20


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------


DIRECT ENERGY CONVERSION:=20
Fundamentals of Electric Power Production from Heat
Oxford University Press, 1997=20
ISBN 0-19-509572-3

The intent of this book is to acquaint the technically trained reader to =
understand the physics and practical limitations of methods that might =
be employed for the production of electrical power, that most useful of =
all power forms. The conversion of energy in its many forms occurs =
naturally and is caused to happen deliberately by industrial man in =
processes for a variety of reasons and purposes. The production of =
electromechanical power is dominated by the exploitation of heat =
resources by means of heat engines and of mechanical power resources =
available in nature. The utilization of heat resources is, in turn, =
dominated by the thermodynamics of the heat engine and its limitations. =
For some cycles, the limitation is due to the fuel energy content; for =
others, the usable temperatures allowed by the materials in the engine =
are critical; and for still others, the characteristics of the =
thermodynamic cycle working fluid limit the cycle performance.=20

Thermodynamics, physics, and chemistry also govern the direct conversion =
of energy in various forms to electrical energy. Direct energy =
conversion is concerned with the transformation of energy to electrical =
power without the use of the heat engine and the associated rotating =
electrical generator. These methods are characterized by an electrical =
circuit wherein molecular scale charge carriers complete the circuit =
rather than electrons in the conductors of the rotating machinery. This =
offers the potential for production of electric power with long-lived, =
reliable, and durable power systems from such resources as heat, =
chemical energy, flow kinetic energy, as well as photon radiation. The =
conversion of these energy forms to electric power is limited to varying =
degrees by the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

The greater purpose of this book is to provide an understanding of the =
critical physical phenomena involved in designing an energy conversion =
device or system around a laboratory effect. This book is limited to =
those devices that have or were thought to have a realistic chance of =
becoming commercially successful or may be particulary useful in a =
special application niche. The topics covered therefore do not include =
all energy conversion methods. For an appreciation of some of other =
methods that have been investigated as well as a good overview of the =
governing concepts associated with irreversible thermodynamics, the =
reader is encouraged to see other texts on the same subject. Works by =
Angrist (Ref. 1-8), Soo (Ref. 5-1), Sutton (Ref. 1-9), as well as others =
are often very good and complementary to the study here. In fact, a =
particular author's interest in a specific subject often reflects a =
disproportionate effort spent on writing about the ideas involved and =
its details. This is probably true here and with other authors. Thus the =
reader may wish to read in greater depth elsewhere about some topics =
that are omitted or touched on only briefly here.

Chapter 1 is a review of the characteristics of heat engines as an =
extension to that in Ref. 1-1. Some discussion there is also devoted to =
the production of solar cell electric power. Of interest always are =
factors that determine power output (specifically power density or =
compactness), complexity (or cost), and the efficiency of the conversion =
of heat to power. By virtue of their function in meeting a user's needs, =
most engines must operate for some fraction of their operating lives at =
power levels less than full power. The variation of the performance =
characteristics, specifically the efficiency, is often of great interest =
under these circumstances.

Chapter 2 is a discussion of flows with electromagnetic interactions, =
the singular and practical method of obtaining work from a gas with =
kinetic energy by means of a volumetric, rather than surface (on the =
airfoils of a turbine, for example), force interaction. The description =
of magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) devices requires reviews of classical =
electricity and magnetism and of the fluid equations of motion. A =
specialized review is provided here. The background covered also serves =
the development of electrohydrodynamics reviewed in Chapter 5.

Chapter 3 addresses determination of the principal property of materials =
asked to carry electric current: the electrical conductivity. In gases, =
the magnitude of this transport property is critical to the successful =
design of power machinery. The mathematical development yields valuable =
insight into the physics of MHD and similar plasmas. This background is =
important for understanding the design and performance of the devices =
discussed in Chapter 4. Finally, it sets the stage for understanding the =
electrical conductivity in other materials: metals (Chapter 6), =
electrolytes (Chapter 7), and semiconductors (Chapters 8 and 9).

Chapter 4 describes direct removal of work from a moving fluid as =
electric power. The interaction involves passage of a high-speed, =
conducting gas through a magnetic field. Study of this form of energy =
conversion is an important aspect of MHD, the study of gas dynamics with =
significant flow interaction. The MHD generator described is similar to =
a very high-temperature turbine whose contribution to the performance of =
the conversion system is critical. The characteristics of this process =
are examined in detail. The reader is referred to Ref. 1-1 for an =
examination of the integration of this generator into a heat engine =
power system.

The forced convection of charges may be used to generate an electric =
field and thus a current. The electrohydrodynamic interaction is covered =
in Chapter 5.=20

The physics of metals and the ability of hot metals to transfer charges =
into a vacuum or low- pressure space and to a receiver at an elevated =
potential is described in Chapter 6. This forms the basis for the =
analytical description of thermionic converters whose physical and =
performance characteristics are covered.

Chapter 7 is a discussion of chemical cells (batteries and fuel cells) =
where the conversion of chemicals of one type to another takes place. =
Since chemical reorganization involves the valence electrons of the =
constituents, the cells can force the transfer of electrons to occur =
through an external load circuit where their energy may be usefully =
employed. Such a conversion circumvents the transformation of the =
chemical energy to heat, and thus the conversion efficiency is not =
constrained by the Carnot cycle limitation, which afflicts heat engines. =
This attractive feature is balanced by the lower power density. This =
chapter describes ionic conduction of charges through electrolytes and =
the most interesting types of fuel cell systems. Liquid and solid =
electrolyte cells are considered. Fuels cells are promising alternative =
to heat engines, especially with simple fuels such as hydrogen or =
methane. Batteries, as a close relative to the fuel cell, will continue =
to play an important role in energy storage, especially in the =
transportation sector. Methods for calculating the energy density are =
described together with examples of practical systems.

Chapters 8 and 9 deal primarily with semiconductors. In Chapter 8, the =
photovoltaic effect is described where photons interact with the =
electrons in a semiconductor junction, resulting in the production of =
electron-hole pairs. The electrons are elevated to a higher potential =
energy. The physical phenomena described apply to the design of solar =
cells covered here and in ref. 1-1 and to infrared cells for power =
systems using fuels. A review of the physics of radiation precedes a =
discussion of the system design, power density, and efficiency. In =
Chapter 9, the thermoelectric effects are described, together with the =
characteristics of devices designed to exploit them.=20

It is the author's view that a phenomenon or result is made much more =
understandable if it can be modeled mathematically because one can =
readily see the effect of the parameters involved. Thus the reader will =
find a quantitative emphasis on fundamentals carried to the point where =
important conclusions regarding performance characteristics can be =
drawn. Detailed design characteristics and statements regarding =
performance of specific devices are avoided because these will change in =
time, while the fundamental underpinnings will not.=20

It is expected that the reader be competent in calculus, physics, and =
chemistry. For the discussion of MHD devices in particular, the student =
should have had an introduction to the dynamics of compressible fluid =
flow. This text is suitable for senior-level undergraduates or graduate =
students in engineering. A limited number of problems are given at the =
end of the chapters.=20

    1. Heat Engines=20
    2. Flow with Electromagnetic Interaction=20
    3. Plasmas and Electrical Conductivity of Gases=20
    4. Magnetohydrodynamics=20
    5. Electrohydrodynamic Power Generation=20
    6. Heat to Electricity Via Free Electrons: Thermionic Power =
Generation=20
    7. Chemical Energy to Electricity: Electrochemistry=20
    8. Semiconductors: Photoelectricity=20
    9. Heat To Electricity via Bound Electrons: Thermoelectricity=20
    Appendix A: Maxwell Boltzmann Distribution Function=20
    Appendix B: Fundamental Physical Constants=20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------


E-mail address: decher aa.washington.edu

------=_NextPart_000_007D_01BDC626.05EE4480
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>AA Faculty: Reiner Decher, Direct =
Energy Conversion</TITLE><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN"><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://www.aa.washington.edu/faculty/decher/direct_energy_conv.htm=
l><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>(<A=20
href=3D"http://www.aa.washington.edu/faculty/">http://www.aa.washington.e=
du/faculty/</A><BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P><B>Reiner Decher<BR></B><I>Professor (Adjunct in Civil =
Engineering)</I>=20
<HR width=3D100%>

<P></P>
<H2 align=3Dcenter>DIRECT ENERGY CONVERSION: <BR>Fundamentals of =
Electric Power=20
Production from Heat</H2>
<P>Oxford University Press, 1997 <BR>ISBN 0-19-509572-3</P>
<P>The intent of this book is to acquaint the technically trained reader =
to=20
understand the physics and practical limitations of methods that might =
be=20
employed for the production of electrical power, that most useful of all =
power=20
forms. The conversion of energy in its many forms occurs naturally and =
is caused=20
to happen deliberately by industrial man in processes for a variety of =
reasons=20
and purposes. The production of electromechanical power is dominated by =
the=20
exploitation of heat resources by means of heat engines and of =
mechanical power=20
resources available in nature. The utilization of heat resources is, in =
turn,=20
dominated by the thermodynamics of the heat engine and its limitations. =
For some=20
cycles, the limitation is due to the fuel energy content; for others, =
the usable=20
temperatures allowed by the materials in the engine are critical; and =
for still=20
others, the characteristics of the thermodynamic cycle working fluid =
limit the=20
cycle performance. </P>
<P>Thermodynamics, physics, and chemistry also govern the direct =
conversion of=20
energy in various forms to electrical energy. Direct energy conversion =
is=20
concerned with the transformation of energy to electrical power without =
the use=20
of the heat engine and the associated rotating electrical generator. =
These=20
methods are characterized by an electrical circuit wherein molecular =
scale=20
charge carriers complete the circuit rather than electrons in the =
conductors of=20
the rotating machinery. This offers the potential for production of =
electric=20
power with long-lived, reliable, and durable power systems from such =
resources=20
as heat, chemical energy, flow kinetic energy, as well as photon =
radiation. The=20
conversion of these energy forms to electric power is limited to varying =
degrees=20
by the Second Law of Thermodynamics.</P>
<P>The greater purpose of this book is to provide an understanding of =
the=20
critical physical phenomena involved in designing an energy conversion =
device or=20
system around a laboratory effect. This book is limited to those devices =
that=20
have or were thought to have a realistic chance of becoming commercially =

successful or may be particulary useful in a special application niche. =
The=20
topics covered therefore do not include all energy conversion methods. =
For an=20
appreciation of some of other methods that have been investigated as =
well as a=20
good overview of the governing concepts associated with irreversible=20
thermodynamics, the reader is encouraged to see other texts on the same =
subject.=20
Works by Angrist (Ref. 1-8), Soo (Ref. 5-1), Sutton (Ref. 1-9), as well =
as=20
others are often very good and complementary to the study here. In fact, =
a=20
particular author's interest in a specific subject often reflects a=20
disproportionate effort spent on writing about the ideas involved and =
its=20
details. This is probably true here and with other authors. Thus the =
reader may=20
wish to read in greater depth elsewhere about some topics that are =
omitted or=20
touched on only briefly here.</P>
<P>Chapter 1 is a review of the characteristics of heat engines as an =
extension=20
to that in Ref. 1-1. Some discussion there is also devoted to the =
production of=20
solar cell electric power. Of interest always are factors that determine =
power=20
output (specifically power density or compactness), complexity (or =
cost), and=20
the efficiency of the conversion of heat to power. By virtue of their =
function=20
in meeting a user's needs, most engines must operate for some fraction =
of their=20
operating lives at power levels less than full power. The variation of =
the=20
performance characteristics, specifically the efficiency, is often of =
great=20
interest under these circumstances.</P>
<P>Chapter 2 is a discussion of flows with electromagnetic interactions, =
the=20
singular and practical method of obtaining work from a gas with kinetic =
energy=20
by means of a volumetric, rather than surface (on the airfoils of a =
turbine, for=20
example), force interaction. The description of magnetohydrodynamic =
(MHD)=20
devices requires reviews of classical electricity and magnetism and of =
the fluid=20
equations of motion. A specialized review is provided here. The =
background=20
covered also serves the development of electrohydrodynamics reviewed in =
Chapter=20
5.</P>
<P>Chapter 3 addresses determination of the principal property of =
materials=20
asked to carry electric current: the electrical conductivity. In gases, =
the=20
magnitude of this transport property is critical to the successful =
design of=20
power machinery. The mathematical development yields valuable insight =
into the=20
physics of MHD and similar plasmas. This background is important for=20
understanding the design and performance of the devices discussed in =
Chapter 4.=20
Finally, it sets the stage for understanding the electrical conductivity =
in=20
other materials: metals (Chapter 6), electrolytes (Chapter 7), and=20
semiconductors (Chapters 8 and 9).</P>
<P>Chapter 4 describes direct removal of work from a moving fluid as =
electric=20
power. The interaction involves passage of a high-speed, conducting gas =
through=20
a magnetic field. Study of this form of energy conversion is an =
important aspect=20
of MHD, the study of gas dynamics with significant flow interaction. The =
MHD=20
generator described is similar to a very high-temperature turbine whose=20
contribution to the performance of the conversion system is critical. =
The=20
characteristics of this process are examined in detail. The reader is =
referred=20
to Ref. 1-1 for an examination of the integration of this generator into =
a heat=20
engine power system.</P>
<P>The forced convection of charges may be used to generate an electric =
field=20
and thus a current. The electrohydrodynamic interaction is covered in =
Chapter 5.=20
</P>
<P>The physics of metals and the ability of hot metals to transfer =
charges into=20
a vacuum or low- pressure space and to a receiver at an elevated =
potential is=20
described in Chapter 6. This forms the basis for the analytical =
description of=20
thermionic converters whose physical and performance characteristics are =

covered.</P>
<P>Chapter 7 is a discussion of chemical cells (batteries and fuel =
cells) where=20
the conversion of chemicals of one type to another takes place. Since =
chemical=20
reorganization involves the valence electrons of the constituents, the =
cells can=20
force the transfer of electrons to occur through an external load =
circuit where=20
their energy may be usefully employed. Such a conversion circumvents the =

transformation of the chemical energy to heat, and thus the conversion=20
efficiency is not constrained by the Carnot cycle limitation, which =
afflicts=20
heat engines. This attractive feature is balanced by the lower power =
density.=20
This chapter describes ionic conduction of charges through electrolytes =
and the=20
most interesting types of fuel cell systems. Liquid and solid =
electrolyte cells=20
are considered. Fuels cells are promising alternative to heat engines,=20
especially with simple fuels such as hydrogen or methane. Batteries, as =
a close=20
relative to the fuel cell, will continue to play an important role in =
energy=20
storage, especially in the transportation sector. Methods for =
calculating the=20
energy density are described together with examples of practical =
systems.</P>
<P>Chapters 8 and 9 deal primarily with semiconductors. In Chapter 8, =
the=20
photovoltaic effect is described where photons interact with the =
electrons in a=20
semiconductor junction, resulting in the production of electron-hole =
pairs. The=20
electrons are elevated to a higher potential energy. The physical =
phenomena=20
described apply to the design of solar cells covered here and in ref. =
1-1 and to=20
infrared cells for power systems using fuels. A review of the physics of =

radiation precedes a discussion of the system design, power density, and =

efficiency. In Chapter 9, the thermoelectric effects are described, =
together=20
with the characteristics of devices designed to exploit them. </P>
<P>It is the author's view that a phenomenon or result is made much more =

understandable if it can be modeled mathematically because one can =
readily see=20
the effect of the parameters involved. Thus the reader will find a =
quantitative=20
emphasis on fundamentals carried to the point where important =
conclusions=20
regarding performance characteristics can be drawn. Detailed design=20
characteristics and statements regarding performance of specific devices =
are=20
avoided because these will change in time, while the fundamental =
underpinnings=20
will not. </P>
<P>It is expected that the reader be competent in calculus, physics, and =

chemistry. For the discussion of MHD devices in particular, the student =
should=20
have had an introduction to the dynamics of compressible fluid flow. =
This text=20
is suitable for senior-level undergraduates or graduate students in =
engineering.=20
A limited number of problems are given at the end of the chapters. </P>
<UL>
    <P>1. Heat Engines <BR>2. Flow with Electromagnetic Interaction =
<BR>3.=20
    Plasmas and Electrical Conductivity of Gases <BR>4. =
Magnetohydrodynamics=20
    <BR>5. Electrohydrodynamic Power Generation <BR>6. Heat to =
Electricity Via=20
    Free Electrons: Thermionic Power Generation <BR>7. Chemical Energy =
to=20
    Electricity: Electrochemistry <BR>8. Semiconductors: =
Photoelectricity <BR>9.=20
    Heat To Electricity via Bound Electrons: Thermoelectricity =
<BR>Appendix A:=20
    Maxwell Boltzmann Distribution Function <BR>Appendix B: Fundamental =
Physical=20
    Constants </P></UL>
<P>
<HR>

<P></P>
<ADDRESS>E-mail address: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:decher aa.washington.edu">decher@aa.washington.edu</A></AD=
DRESS></BODY></HTML>

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In article <6qic6j$3d8 dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
bward*remove_this* ix.netcom.com (Bill Ward) wrote:

> mjones jump.net (Mitchell Jones) wrote:
> 
> <snip intro of CF experiment>
> 
> >(1) Materials required: one stopwatch; one 250 ml pyrex beaker; one
> >standard alcohol or mercury lab thermometer scaled from -20 to +150
> >degrees C; small lab platform balance capable of accurate measurements in
> >the range from 0 to 1000 grams; insulating pad suitable for supporting hot
> >materials (up to 150 degrees C) being weighed on the platform balance; 500
> >grams of K2CO3 (potassium carbonate) in powdered form; 30 cm of .5 mm 
> >diameter platinum wire; two small pieces of foil, each 2 mm x 5 mm, one
> >made of platinum and one of tungsten (a .75 cm long piece of tungsten
> >welding rod, 1/16 inch diameter, may be substituted for the tungsten
> >foil); a variable voltage DC power supply, capable of values ranging from
> >20 volts to 200 volts at 5 amps.
> 
> >(2) Construction: 
> 
> >(a) Cut the 30 cm platinum wire into two 15 cm lengths. 
> 
> >(b) Attach the Pt foil to one end of one of the Pt wires by piercing and
> >crimping. That is your anode. 
> 
> >(c) Attach the tungsten foil to one end of the other Pt wire by piercing
> >and crimping. That is your cathode. (If instead of the foil you use a
> >piece of tungsten welding rod, you will have to be very careful to wrap
> >and crimp tightly, so that the tungsten will not be dislodged by the
> >violent reaction.) 
> 
> >(d) Make up a .5 molar potassium carbonate solution, by placing 69.1 grams
> >of K2CO3 powder in a clean glass container, and adding enough distilled
> >water to bring the final volume up to 1 liter. 
> 
> >(e) Fill your 250 ml beaker with about 200 ml of the .5 Molar potassium
> >carbonate solution. 
> 
> >(f) Cut a rectangular piece of plexiglass or some similar flat plastic
> >(e.g., lexan) that is long enough to bridge across the top of your beaker,
> >but narrow enough to vent steam at the sides. Drill three holes through it
> >in a line, so that the outermost holes (for the anode and cathode leads)
> >will be the same distance from the walls of the beakers as from the
> >central hole (which will be used to suspend the thermometer). 
> 
> >(g) Suspend the anode and cathode leads and the thermometer in the
> >electrolyte. The anode and cathode should be suspended about halfway from
> >the top of the electrolyte to the bottom of the beaker, and the bulb of
> >the thermometer should be about a fourth of the way from the bottom. 
> 
> >(h) Attach the Pt lead from the anode to the positive terminal from your
> >power supply, and attach the Pt lead from the cathode to the negative
> >terminal. 
> 
> >(3) Experimental Procedure: 
> 
> >(a) Warmup Phase: Place the insulating pad on the platform balance, and
> >place the beaker and attached materials on it. Turn the system on and ramp
> >up the voltage gradually, starting at about 20 volts, until the
> >electrolyte temperature reaches about 80 degrees C. At that point, jump
> >the voltage up to 120 and begin to move in gradual increments toward 180
> >volts. At some point, you will begin to see a violet glow from the
> >cathode, accompanied with the sounds of boiling water. 
> 
> Using a current source should give smoother control, as the voltage
> would automatically adjust itself to the various phases. 
> 
> >(b) Steam Phase: At this point the current will drop into the range from
> >.2 to .4 amps, due to formation of a boundary layer of steam around the
> >cathode, with consequent increase in resistance to current flow.
> 
> Must be an arc in there somewhere, as steam is pretty nonconductive.
> Otherwise, how is the current getting to the cathode?  And where's
> the violet glow coming from?

***{According to comments in the older papers referenced in the article
(1925 and 1950), when the electrolyte has been pushed away and the cathode
is cloaked in a thin film of gas, small arcs form to bridge the gap, as
you suspected. As for the glow, it appears to be violet in the color
photograph on the cover of *Infinite Energy* magazine. The description in
the article is "brilliantly glowing pink, purple, lavender, with white
flashes." In any event, I place no credence in the over unity power
measurements by themselves, because of the obvious suspicions that the
waveform is unstable and more power is being sourced than is being
measured. The thing that piques my interest is the over unity measurements
*in conjunction* with the odd behavior of the tungsten cathode. As I noted
in my original post, I am at a loss to explain the behavior of the
tungsten, which has a larger cross section and, according to my
*Handbook,* has a lower resistivity than the palladium. How then can it be
hotter than the palladium? Hell, even if it had higher resistivity than
the palladium, what I see in the photo would make no sense: the tungsten
is at the end of the cathode, roughly two-thirds of the way from the top
of the water to the bottom. Thus why wouldn't the electron current bypass
the tungsten and flow directly into the solution, if the resistance is
concentrated in the tungsten? My point here is that what I see looks
suspiciously like a *non-resistive heat source,* which is what would be
required if the over unity numbers are real. In other words, I see no way
that *electrical resistance heating* could cause the tungsten to be
"brilliantly glowing pink, purple, lavender, with white flashes," given
the geometry of the setup. The only hypothesis that makes sense out of the
visual observations is that there is some energy source in the tungsten
cathode that is independent of electrical resistance heating. That's the
main reason I posted this experiment. I would like some comments about
this from people who know far more about electronics than I do. Don
Lancaster, for example, surely must have some comments about this. But, if
he is not interested, is there *anyone* out there who can explain what is
going on here? It really has me scratching my head! And, likewise, what
about the chemistry? Perhaps Al Schwartz can hypothesize some chemical
reaction which could lead to differential heating of the tungsten portion
of the cathode? (I can't imagine what. Tungsten sure as hell isn't going
to displace the K from the potassium carbonate, for example.) --Mitchell
Jones}***
    
> 
> >This will
> >bring the solution very quickly to whatever its boiling point is at your
> >local altitude, which will probably be a bit less than 100 degrees C.
> >Weigh the material on the platform balance at this point, with the
> >apparatus running, jot down the weight, and start your stopwatch. Note the
> >voltage and the amperage at this time, jot them down, and continue to
> >monitor them periodically for consistency. (They should stabilize in a
> >very narrow range.)
> 
> An o'scope view of the current and voltage would give me more
> confidence in stability than a meter.  Might show some oscillation
> (steam bubbles, etc) that wouldn't be seen on meters.

***{Yes, agreed. --MJ}***

> 
> >Allow the apparatus to continue boiling until
> >approximately 125 ml has boiled off, and weigh again (while the apparatus
> >is running), jotting down the weight and stopping your stopwatch. Verify
> >that the voltage and amperage have held steady. Turn the apparatus off. 
> 
> >(4) Calorimetry: Subtract the final weight from the initial weight to
> >determine the weight in grams of the water that was boiled off. Multiply
> >that weight by the heat of vaporization of water, which will be about 2260
> >joules/gm at these near-boiling temperatures. Divide the result by the
> >number of seconds elapsed on your stopwatch to get the average power
> >output in joules/sec (watts). For power in, simply multiply the average
> >amps drawn by the apparatus between weighings times the average voltage.
> >The Coefficient of Performance is then obtained by dividing the power out
> >by the power in. For example, suppose that you boiled off 100 gms of water
> >in a period of 50 minutes (3000 sec). In that case, Power out  =
> >[(2260)(100)]/3000 = 75.3 joules/sec = 75.3 watts. If you  averaged .3
> >amps at 160 volts, then power in = 48 watts, and the COP = (75.3)/48 =
> >1.57, which is apparently about average for this setup, according to the
> >*Infinite Energy* article from which this information was obtained.
> 
> >(5) Analysis: 
> 
> >(a) Assuming that this experiment is *not* over unity, then how are we to
> >explain the difference between the behavior of the anode and the cathode?
> >I am at a loss to explain, for example, why the tungsten heats up as much
> >as it does. 
> 
> Why would you expect the cathode and anode to behave the same?  The
> reactions are different.

***{Yes, of course: hydrogen is liberated at the cathode and oxygen at the
anode. But the question is, how does that state of affairs lead to this
odd behavior of the tungsten? Is the tungsten reacting with the hydrogen
in some sort of exothermic reaction, for example? *How do we explain the
differential heating of the tungsten?* It can't be simply electrical
resistive heating, because (a) the resistivity of the tungsten is lower
than that of the platinum, and (b) even if it were not, the tungsten is at
the lower end of the cathode, giving the electron current ample
opportunity to exit directly from the platinum into the solution,
bypassing the tungsten altogether. As I noted above, I am  mystified by
this state of affairs. --Mitchell Jones}***
  
> 
> >The resistivity of platinum at these temperatures, for
> >example, appears to be higher than that of tungsten. At 1200 degrees C,
> >for example, the resistivity of platinum is 52.7 ohm-cm, while that of
> >tungsten is about 40 ohm-cm. Thus there would be a bit more current flow
> >through the tungsten branch of a parallel circuit than through the
> >platinum branch, but since the platinum sources the full load, I fail to
> >see how the tungsten could wind up being hotter than the platinum. Even if
> >we assume that *all* of the electron current exits the cathode through the
> >tungsten, how does that wind up producing this kind of differential
> >heating? If the entire electron current of, say .3 amps, passes through
> >the platinum lead (which is .05 cm in diameter) and exits through the
> >tungsten welding rod (which is 1/16 in or .159 cm in diameter) then by
> >what principle of physics does the tungsten heat up, begin to produce a
> >violet glow, and cloak itself behind a boundary layer of steam? The
> >tungsten has a larger cross sectional area to dissipate heat, and also a
> >lower resistivity, than any comparable length of the platinum. Perhaps
> >someone better versed in electronics than I (are you listening, Don
> >Lancaster?) can explain this to me. The way I see it, if .3 amps flows
> >through a platinum wire of diameter .05 cm and a resistivity of 53 ohm-cm,
> >thence across a tungsten wire of diameter .159 cm and a resistivity of 40
> >ohm-cm, how does the tungsten portion of the circuit get hotter than the
> >platinum portion? The last I heard, resistance was directly proportional
> >to resistivity, inversely proportional to cross-sectional area, and
> >directly proportional to length. By this standard, a given length of
> >platinum wire ought to get hotter than the same length of tungsten wire,
> >right? What am I missing?
> 
> From your operating mode example of 0.3A and 160V, the total
> effective resistance of the circuit is 533 ohms.  My guess is most
> of that is in the violet glow (arc?) that is seen when the
> resistance is high. 

***{An absolutely reasonable supposition, until you focus on the fact that
the tungsten is at the bottom of the cathode and, hence, there is no
reason for the electron current to pass through the tungsten at all, if in
fact the resistance of the tungsten is much higher. Why wouldn't the
electrons simply follow the path of least resistance, and exit the cathode
by jumping directly from the platinum to the H+ ions that are gathered
around the cathode? --Mitchell Jones}***

 The electrodes are only a few ohms, so most of
> the heat would appear elsewhere.  I don't think electrode resistance
> is significant in this case.

***{The differential heating of the tungsten is the fly in the ointment
here. If this is simply electrical resistance heating, then the resistance
must be concentrated in the tungsten, because that is obviously the main
heat source. But, in that case, we are faced with electrons that are not
following the path of least resistance. Therefore we seem forced to the
conclusion that something other than electrical resistance heating is
raising the temperature of the tungsten. But what? Cold fusion? That
certainly fits in with the over unity numbers, but it is not a conclusion
that we ought to leap to without an exhaustive search for alternate
explanations. But what explanation? --Mitchell Jones}***

> 
> Plasmas often (usually) exhibit negative resistance behavior, which
> can cause oscillation or instability in the DC, giving an AC
> component. 
> 
> By controlling the current, using some probes to determine where the
> voltage drops are in the system, and watching the waveforms
> carefully, I think the mystery can be solved. I'd bet that it will
> turn out to be improper measurement of electrical power going into
> the system.  It's not easy to measure AC power, even with all the
> right equipment.  This may be a case of oversimplifying the
> apparatus to the point of error.

***{You are absolutely correct, but there are two mysteries here, not one.
I, like you, want proof that the power measurements are reliable. However,
the main mystery, to me, is the behavior of the tungsten portion of the
cathode. I haven't a clue, at the moment, regarding what could be going on
there. --Mitchell Jones}***
  
> 
> >(b) A major question that I have about this design concerns the
> >possibility of current spikes due to steam explosions at the cathode,
> >which might cause rapid fluctuations in resistance and, thus, current
> >flow. These spikes, if rapid enough, would not show up on the instruments,
> >and thus could permit unmetered power consumption that could show up as
> >excess heat. The crackling and popping sounds from the cathode, as
> >reported in the infinite energy article, suggest that this is a very real
> >possibility, but I will have to do the experiment and see, before deciding
> >how serious this objection really is. If, as I suspect, it is a concern
> >that will have to be addressed, then continuous and highly accurate
> >computerized sampling of current and voltage levels would be one way to
> >get accurate power-in readings. Another way would be to switch over to
> >flow calorimetry--which means: pump the electrolyte in a circle, with a
> >radiator in the loop to dissipate the heat. If the flow were fast enough,
> >the cathode could be kept cool enough to avoid producing its boundary
> >layer of steam, and the cause of the putative current spikes would be
> >removed.
> 
> I agree with your caution. Besides the steam bubbles, there is the
> matter of the violet glow.  That might introduce frequencies not
> reachable with a (reasonable) DAQ system. 

***{Another astute observation. In fact, when Ohmori and Mizuno did the
experiment at Hokkaido University in Japan, they got electromagnetic
effects that were bodacious enough to overwhelm their thermocouples,
thereby forcing them to rely on alcohol thermometers for their temperature
measurements. In addition, they got 60,000 hits per second on their
neutron counter, and postmortem analysis of the tungsten cathode showed
the presence of transmuted elements, including unstable isotopes of Pb,
Ni, Fe, Cr, and C. (Or so they claim.) The entire text of their paper is
presented in the current issue of *Infinite Energy*. [Vol. 4, No. 20,
1998] --Mitchell Jones}***

 One way around that might
> be to directly wideband multiply the current and voltage to get an
> instantaneous power sample that could be recorded.  Most important
> is to first look at the waveforms carefully with a fast scope to see
> what is necessary to get an accurate power reading. Tain't easy.
> 
> 
> >(6) Notes: 
> 
> >(a) I should point out that the *Infinite Energy* article was unclear
> >about the molarity of the potassium carbonate solution. At several points,
> >the author (Eugene Mallove) referred to the solution as being .5 molar,
> >but at another point he said that it was prepared by dissolving 138.2 gms
> >of K2CO3 in distilled water to produce a final volume of 1 liter. The
> >latter, of course, would be a 1 molar solution, not a .5 molar solution. 
> 
> The initial electrolyte resistance depends on concentration, so your
> point is important.

***{I e-mailed Jed Rothwell with the above question. He passed it on to
Gene Mallove, the author of the article, who replied that the solution is,
in fact, .5 molar, and so the liter of solution should, in fact, contain
69.1 gms of K2CO3. --Mitchell Jones}***

> 
> >(The average molecular weights of K, C, and O, respectively, are 39.096,
> >12.01, and 16. Thus a gram molecular weight (mole) of K2CO3 is
> >[2x(39.096)] + 12.01 + 3(16) = 138.202 gms, and, to produce a .5 molar
> >solution, we would dissolve .5(138.2) = 69.1 gms of K2CO3 in enough
> >distilled water to produce a liter of solute.) Hence in the instructions,
> >above, I have assumed that Gene's repeated statements that the solution is
> >.5 molar were correct. However, if you do the experiment and the .5 molar
> >solution doesn't work, then try the 1 molar solution instead. 
> 
> >(b) I deviated from the *Infinite Energy* article by prescribing that the
> >beaker should be on the platform balance when the experiment is done, and
> >should be weighed while the experiment is running. The reason: the
> >tungsten in the cathode, according to the article, shows signs of melting
> >at the end of some runs. Since Tungsten melts at 3370 degrees C, some heat
> >could be stored in the tungsten during the early phase of the experiment,
> >when the solution is brought to a boil. The amount of heat stored, of
> >course, will be trivial. (If the tungsten welding rod is used, its radius
> >will be (1/16)(2.54)/2 = .0794 cm, and thus the volume of a chunk which is
> >.75 cm long will be pi(.0794)^2(.75) = .0148 ml. The density of tungsten
> >is about 14, so such a chunk will weigh (.0148)(14) = .21 gms. Taking the
> >average specific heat of tungsten in the range from 20 to 3370 degrees C
> >to be .04 calories/gm, it follows that at 3370 degrees C we will have
> >stored (.21)(3350)(.04) = 28 calories.) Nevertheless, to satisfy fanatical
> >"skeptics" that the excess heat in the steam phase does not result from
> >the dumping of heat stored in the warmup phase, I have prescribed that the
> >weight measurements be taken while the experiment is running.
> 
> This fanatical skeptic does not believe the results are due to
> stored energy.  Before and after weight is fine.  Capturing the
> steam and doing flow or bomb calorimetry would be better.

***{Believe me, Bill, you are *not* what I have in mind when I refer to
"fanatical skeptics." Their minds are closed--hermetically sealed, in
fact. Anyway, regarding your other comment: I am not sure why the steam
needs to be captured. If the weight of the apparatus drops by 100 grams,
it can only be because 100 gms of water was vaporized. Thus attempting to
capture the steam seems to me to be a waste of time, effort, and money. I
can, however, see a point to capturing the H2 and O2 that are liberated,
since doing so would assist in figuring out whether some exotic chemical
reaction, perhaps involving H+ replacing K in the potassium carbonate,
etc., might be taking place on the cathode, thereby heating it up. Also,
the energy of recombination between the H2 and O2 could be calculated and
added to the energy out numbers, since it is unaccounted for in the
calculation discussed previously. --Mitchell Jones}***
 
> 
> >(c) I haven't done this experiment yet, because I am not in the mood to
> >construct the required power supply, and I have not yet succeeded in
> >finding a commercial source. Perhaps Mr. Lancaster or someone else can
> >point the group to someone who sells a power supply that would be adequate
> >to this task.
> 
> Look up Acopian or HP "operational power supplies".  They are fast
> responding programmable current or voltage sources that would be
> ideal, but pricy.  Ordinary lab supplies will output controlled
> voltage or current, but they are slower responding. May work fine,
> though.  I'd try one of those first.  You can get them used for
> about half retail price or better.  Check electronic surplus stores.

***{I checked everything in my area. No luck. Do you know of any mail
order houses that might have something like this. (I am out of the loop,
I'm afraid. It has been a decade since I have done an electronics project.
--Mitchell Jones}***

> 
> >[One route, of course, is to buy a transformer to step 120
> >volt AC up to 240, then run the 240 into a big dimmer switch to drop the
> >voltage back down to various levels, then feed the output through a
> >full-wave bridge. (This kluge is recommended by the article.) However, I
> >would rather have something a bit more sophisticated, with built-in
> >instrumentation and precise controls, even if I have to pay more for it.]
> 
> An adjustable transformer ("Variac" or "Powerstat") would be far
> better than the dimmer switch, because the output is fairly clean.
> A triac type dimmer switch puts all kinds of noise on the output.
> Don't do that.  Bridge rectifiers are also spiky until they get
> smoothed out in filter caps and regulators.  I'd go with a decent
> but inexpensive regulated power supply.
> 
> >(d) In the *Infinite Energy* article, this setup is treated as something
> >of a breakthrough, because it appears to replicate consistently: virtually
> >everyone who tries it gets the over unity effect. And, interestingly, it
> >was apparently first noticed in 1916. Unfortunately, it didn't occur to
> >the experimenters at that time to do calorimetry, so they didn't notice
> >that the setup was over unity! The details of the original setup were
> >reported in *The Journal of the Electrochemical Society*, April 1950, pg.
> >133. The article was entitled "The Anode Effect in Aqueous Electrolysis,"
> >by Herbert Kellogg.  
> 
> I'm skeptical, but I'll be glad to help out on the instrumentation
> if you want.  One of us might convince the other, who knows?

***{Please don't take me as an unqualified advocate. I am fascinated by
this stuff, and I believe that some of these "over unity" claims are
factual, but each specific claim still has to be justified on its own
merits. 

My general view of the "over unity" area is that there is far too much
smoke for there to not be any fire. The problem which the proponents of
orthodoxy face is simply that too much work has been done, by too many
people, and too many "over unity" results have been achieved. One
experiment, or even ten or twenty, can be dismissed on generalized
grounds, as due to "probable experimental error." Thousands, however, are
quite another matter. The difficulty in such cases becomes a matter of
mathematics. Assume, for example, that the probability is .99 that a given
"over unity" claim by a reputable scientist is due to experimental error,
and that there are 1000 such claims. In that case, the probability that
all 1000 claims are due to experimental error is (.99)^1000 = .0000432,
*which means it is virtually certain that at least one of the claims is
true*. And it only takes one: if one of these claims is true, the jig is
up for the skeptics. In my view, therefore, the jig is up. 

As I see it, in fact, blanket denial of "over unity" claims is very
similar to Holocaust denial: just as "Holocaust revisionists" reject
thousands of instances of eyewitness Holocaust testimony--e.g., about gas
chambers--on the grounds that each witness may be lying, deluded, or
crazy, so the over unity deniers reject thousands of instances of
over-unity experimental results on the grounds that each may be tainted by
experimental error, wishful thinking, or incompetence. And the fallacy in
both cases is the same: both the Holocaust deniers and the over unity
deniers fail to comprehend that the probabilities multiply, and hence they
fail to grasp that while each probative fact may be wrong, it is a virtual
mathematical impossibility that they are *all* wrong. Since only one true
eyewitness account of gas chambers is required to establish the existence
of gas chambers, and since only one over-unity result needs to be true to
refute the orthodox view, the fanatic over-unity skeptics and the fanatic
Holocaust skeptics share a basic mathematical fallacy in common.

Nevertheless, thus far, the Hydrosonic Pump is the only device which seems
to me to be *unambiguously* over unity. In that specific case I simply
cannot imagine how the numbers I have seen could be due to an accumulation
of measuring errors. Too many engineering teams have run calorimetry in
Grigg's shop, and the experimental setup has been modified too many ways,
all with over unity results. 

Anyway, since I am strongly inclined to believe that there is something to
this "over unity" stuff, I would like to tinker with some of these devices
myself, and since the Griggs device has the strongest credentials, it is a
tempting choice. Unfortunately, playing with one of Griggs' machines would
set me back $10 or $20 k, and I would need a full machine shop to build
rotor variants, as I would want to do, in hopes of improving the
efficiency. That is a bit too rich for my blood. 

As for the Pons-Fleischmann types of electrochemical cells, well, I view
them as much more problematical. Broadly defined, this group includes the
CETI type power cells and the tungsten cathode setup we are discussing
here, and each and every incarnation has the same problems relating to the
measurement of input power. Whenever the load is prone to random sparking,
power measurements become a bitch. That fact, coupled with the admitted
inconsistency and the claims that high art is required to even obtain the
occasional over unity results, has in the past deterred me from dabbling
in the area. (My experiments with the flow calorimetry setup used by CETI
in the Power Gen Demo several years ago convinced me that high art was
claimed more often than it was present!) 

The tungsten cathode setup which we have been discussing, however, is
being put forth with claims that *apparent* over unity is virtually
guaranteed, and that high art is not required to achieve it. (Gene Mallove
was careful to *not* make an unqualified claim that this setup is over
unity, by the way.) It is a fairly low budget project, and any amateur
with basic electronics skills can make this work, or so it is said. Thus I
am highly tempted to try it. Prior to that, however, I want to thoroughly
dissect the design in a public forum. (I prefer to detect flaws in the
planning stage rather than in the experimental stage. Thus if anyone can
shoot this down before I have laid my money on the table, they will
receive my thanks.) What I am interested in, however, are specific
objections of the sort you have been raising, rather than the types of
contentless generalities that I have been getting from some others. Such
people typically begin with the assumption that over unity is impossible
and work backwards from there, to propose non-specific guesswork
concerning where the experimenters went wrong (e.g., "measurement error").
Such posts, in my view, are simply a waste of time. Those who cannot
propose specific causal arguments that elucidate the physics or the
chemistry of this design have nothing worthwhile to contribute here, and I
would appreciate it very much if they would simply butt out.
Realistically, of course, Hell will freeze over before they will do so.
Instead, fully 90% of the posts to this thread will likely be from people
who have nothing worthwhile to say. That is about par for the course,
based on past experience.  

--Mitchell Jones}***
     
> 
> Regards,
> Bill Ward

===================================================
Notice: My posts are an invitation to those who wish to engage in reasoned
dialogue, and readers are encouraged to supply any  facts or logic which
they think may refute my conclusions or my reasoning. They should,
however, confine their comments to substantive matters. Reasoned discourse
is a polite and non-emotional exploration of evidence and logic, not a
put-down contest. Thus I am not interested in a respondent's unsupported
assertions, or in his wishful thinking, or in his educational credentials,
or in his claims or insinuations about his or my mental state; nor am I
interested in insulting, derisive, or mocking  comments. While anyone is
of course free to post anything he likes, I am also free to not read
material which does not interest me. Thus when I encounter, in a reply
that has been posted to me, clear evidence that the respondent intends to
engage in  a put-down contest, I will treat the offending party to an
appropriate cooling off period in my killfile. Present inmates of my
killfile are: Scott Nudds (release date: Jan. 1, 1999); Fred Kasner
(release date: Sept. 1, 1998).

===========================================================

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On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Mitchell Jones wrote:

[...]
> > Must be an arc in there somewhere, as steam is pretty nonconductive.
> > Otherwise, how is the current getting to the cathode?  And where's
> > the violet glow coming from?
> 
> ***{According to comments in the older papers referenced in the article
> (1925 and 1950), when the electrolyte has been pushed away and the cathode
> is cloaked in a thin film of gas, small arcs form to bridge the gap, as
> you suspected. As for the glow, it appears to be violet in the color
> photograph on the cover of *Infinite Energy* magazine. The description in
> the article is "brilliantly glowing pink, purple, lavender, with white
> flashes." In any event, I place no credence in the over unity power
> measurements by themselves, because of the obvious suspicions that the
> waveform is unstable and more power is being sourced than is being
> measured. The thing that piques my interest is the over unity measurements
> *in conjunction* with the odd behavior of the tungsten cathode. As I noted
> in my original post, I am at a loss to explain the behavior of the
> tungsten, which has a larger cross section and, according to my
> *Handbook,* has a lower resistivity than the palladium. How then can it be
> hotter than the palladium? Hell, even if it had higher resistivity than
> the palladium, what I see in the photo would make no sense: the tungsten
> is at the end of the cathode, roughly two-thirds of the way from the top
[...]
(Btw, Jones, must you quote previous posts in their entirety, or don't you
know how to trim them?)

I assume the tungsten electrode is the anode, and is therefore
oxidising, and the Pd is the cathode and evolving hydrogen (and
absorbing some of it).  The metals' conductivity probably has very
little to do with the heating.  There seems, from what I have read, to
be a film of vapour between the metals and the electrolyte, and this
film must be the most resistive path.  On the W, there might also be
an oxide layer, that perhaps adds to the resistance there. In any
case, for some reason, if not this one, the films appear to have
different resistances. I doubt that the electrodes themselves are
heating up, except by radiation/conduction from the films, that are
being heated by the sparking through them. Just my guess.

These films and the discharges going through them, make for a very
complicated system, not much explored, I think. Bockris and a coworker
wrote a paper a few years ago (of which I have forgotten the details) on
electrical breakdown of metal/electrolyte interfaces. Fleischmann might
have some good ideas here, this is up his alley. But who can contact him?

-- Dieter Britz.    Visit me at http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db


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From: slingshot9916 my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower,sci.energy,sci.energy.hydrogen,sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: Over Unity Cold Fusion Experiment
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 03:18:49 GMT
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In article <6qqi4c$pos dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
  bward*remove_this* ix.netcom.com (Bill Ward) wrote:
> mjones jump.net (Mitchell Jones) wrote:
>
> >In article <6qic6j$3d8 dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
> >bward*remove_this* ix.netcom.com (Bill Ward) wrote:
>
> >> mjones jump.net (Mitchell Jones) wrote:
> >>
> >> <snip intro of CF experiment>
> >>
> I did some major snipping for bandwidth. I hope the remainder is
> somewhat coherent.
>
[ whole bunch more snipping for bandwidth ]


> >> >(b) Steam Phase: At this point the current will drop into the range from
> >> >.2 to .4 amps, due to formation of a boundary layer of steam around the
> >> >cathode, with consequent increase in resistance to current flow.
> >>
> >> Must be an arc in there somewhere, as steam is pretty nonconductive.
> >> Otherwise, how is the current getting to the cathode?  And where's
> >> the violet glow coming from?
>
> >***{According to comments in the older papers referenced in the article
> >(1925 and 1950), when the electrolyte has been pushed away and the cathode
> >is cloaked in a thin film of gas, small arcs form to bridge the gap, as
> >you suspected.
>
> It appears most of the heat is generated in the plasma interface
> between the electrolyte (bubbling) and the cathode.  That's where
> most of the resistance is.
>
> >As for the glow, it appears to be violet in the color
> >photograph on the cover of *Infinite Energy* magazine. The description in
> >the article is "brilliantly glowing pink, purple, lavender, with white
> >flashes."
>
> White flashes are weird, but the other effects aren't too surprising
> in a 160V plasma.
>

Yes, we are drawing an arc in steam . See the spectra here:
http://www.achilles.net/~jtalbot/data/elements/index.html Both hydrogen and
oxygen have strong blue emission with oxygen having emissions in green and
red as well. Depending on the temperature in the arc you could easily
generate all of the colors mentioned.

> >In any event, I place no credence in the over unity power
> >measurements by themselves, because of the obvious suspicions that the
> >waveform is unstable and more power is being sourced than is being
> >measured. The thing that piques my interest is the over unity measurements
> >*in conjunction* with the odd behavior of the tungsten cathode. As I noted
> >in my original post, I am at a loss to explain the behavior of the
> >tungsten, which has a larger cross section and, according to my
> >*Handbook,* has a lower resistivity than the palladium. How then can it be
> >hotter than the palladium?
>
> How do you know it's hotter than the Pd?
>
> >Hell, even if it had higher resistivity than
> >the palladium, what I see in the photo would make no sense: the tungsten
> >is at the end of the cathode, roughly two-thirds of the way from the top
> >of the water to the bottom. Thus why wouldn't the electron current bypass
> >the tungsten and flow directly into the solution, if the resistance is
> >concentrated in the tungsten? My point here is that what I see looks
> >suspiciously like a *non-resistive heat source,* which is what would be
> >required if the over unity numbers are real. In other words, I see no way
> >that *electrical resistance heating* could cause the tungsten to be
> >"brilliantly glowing pink, purple, lavender, with white flashes," given
> >the geometry of the setup. The only hypothesis that makes sense out of the
> >visual observations is that there is some energy source in the tungsten
> >cathode that is independent of electrical resistance heating. That's the
> >main reason I posted this experiment. I would like some comments about
> >this from people who know far more about electronics than I do. Don
> >Lancaster, for example, surely must have some comments about this. But, if
> >he is not interested, is there *anyone* out there who can explain what is
> >going on here? It really has me scratching my head! And, likewise, what
> >about the chemistry? Perhaps Al Schwartz can hypothesize some chemical
> >reaction which could lead to differential heating of the tungsten portion
> >of the cathode? (I can't imagine what. Tungsten sure as hell isn't going
> >to displace the K from the potassium carbonate, for example.) --Mitchell
> >Jones}***
> >
> Well, Mitch, I'm not in the same league with either of the two
> gentlemen you mention, but my suspicion is that the effects (except
> for over-unity!) can be explained by a high-resistance region
> between the cathode and the solution.  Assume the solution is
> approaching boiling while hydrogen is evolving from the cathode.
> Increasing the voltage causes an electrical discharge, releasing
> energy precisely wherever the solution contacts the cathode, so
> maintaining a gas film insulating the cathode.  The gas (H2? H2O?),
> not the tungsten, glows violet from the electrical 160 V excitation.
> Perhaps the white flashes occur when H2 builds up on the cathode,
> then suddenly catalytically reacts with the electrolyte when it
> touches briefly.  Who knows? It's complex and might make an
> interesting study, but it doesn't carry much weight with me as far
> as over-unity behavior is concerned.  Asymmetric behavior in a DC
> arc is to be expected.  The heat is evolved where the resistance is.
>

---- Asymmetric behavior in a DC arc is to be expected. -----

Beautiful! Describes it perfectly. Wish I had said that.
In an arc you create a plasma. The free electrons will be attracted to the
positve end of the arc and the ions will be attracted to the
negative (cathode) end. The ions, having most of the mass in the plasma
will have most of the energy. This energy, plus the energy they gain
being accelerated in an electric field will be transfered to the cathode when
they contact it. Hence the cathode gets much hotter than the anode.

[ more snipping ]
> >***{Yes, of course: hydrogen is liberated at the cathode and oxygen at the
> >anode. But the question is, how does that state of affairs lead to this
> >odd behavior of the tungsten? Is the tungsten reacting with the hydrogen
> >in some sort of exothermic reaction, for example? *How do we explain the
> >differential heating of the tungsten?* It can't be simply electrical
> >resistive heating, because (a) the resistivity of the tungsten is lower
> >than that of the platinum, and (b) even if it were not, the tungsten is at
> >the lower end of the cathode, giving the electron current ample
> >opportunity to exit directly from the platinum into the solution,
> >bypassing the tungsten altogether. As I noted above, I am  mystified by
> >this state of affairs. --Mitchell Jones}***
>
> See above.  I think the resistive heating is in the plasma, not in
> the electrode.

Yes. Consider an arc welder. The welding rod gets hot at the tip not
along it's entire length.

[ more snipped ]




--
When you shoot at the messenger
then you are admitting
you have lost the argument.

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

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From: mjones jump.net (Mitchell Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower,sci.energy,sci.energy.hydrogen,sci.physics.fusion,sci.engr,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Over Unity Cold Fusion Experiment
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 00:53:40 -0600
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In article <6qo4qh$fdb news-central.tiac.net>, conover@tiac.net (Harry H
Conover) wrote:

> Fred McGalliard (frederick.b.mcgalliard boeing.com) wrote:
> : 
> : 
> : Mitchell Jones wrote:
> : 
> : > (a) Assuming that this experiment is *not* over unity, then how are we to
> : > explain the difference between the behavior of the anode and the cathode?
> : > ...Even if we assume that *all* of the electron current exits the cathode
> : > through the
> : > tungsten, how does that wind up producing this kind of differential
> : > heating?
> : 
> : Could be that the bulk of the heat is coming from potasium recombining with
> : water and releasing hydrogen? Just a thought. I would have expected,
if other
> : simple chemical mechanisms were at play, that the platinum would
catalize the
> : mixture of gas in the electrolyte back to water releasing the energy
as heat.
> :
> 
> Fred, as someone else pointed out (perhaps it was even you), not one of 
> these over-unity claim experiments has, to my knowledge, ever included
> a comprehensive analysis of their experimental error margins. 

***{Given the thousands of results that have accumulated in the past 10
years, from labs all over the world, the odds against your statement being
true are simply immense. Of course, your qualifier, "to my knowledge,"
ensures that you don't have to worry about such niceties. --Mitchell
Jones}***

 Lacking 
> this, it is impossible to determine if there is any evidence at all
> supporting over-unity results.

***{False. It is standard practice to describe the measuring instruments
used and the experimental design. From those facts, you would be perfectly
capable of doing the arithmetic that would be required to determine
whether the instrumental measuring errors could or could not accumulate to
large enough magnitudes to account for the over unity results. In my post
vis-a-vis the Hydrosonic Pump a week or so ago, for example, I neglected
to list the instruments used, and Bill Ward publicly questioned me about
that. Result: I dug back through a couple of thousand old posts until I
found the information he wanted, after which he dropped the matter. Why?
Well, I didn't ask him why, but I feel confident that he saw what I saw:
that there was *no way* the error margins in those instruments would
permit a cumulative error large enough to account for the results. Anyway,
the point here is that since the instruments are routinely identified in
these experiments, and can be easily obtained by simply asking the
experimenters in the cases where they were not identified, there is
nothing stopping you or any other skeptic from shooting them down on that
basis, if you can. And therein lies the rub: you can't do it, so you don't
even try. What you do, instead, is post vague handwaving of the sort you
are posting here, in which you allude non-specifically to fictive
"problems," and waste everybody's time. --Mitchell Jones}***
     
> 
> At least for me, it is a bit premature to suggest a mechanism for an
> over-unity result, when it is not yet clear that an over-unity result
> has ever been observed.

***{Horsefeathers. I challenge you to state a specific argument to the
effect that the Hydrosonic Pump's 9% over unity numbers, in the runs I
posted, could be accounted for by an accumulation of instrumental
measuring errors. If you cannot or will not do that, then please cease
yapping about it. I posted all the information you need to construct such
an argument, so get to it! I eagerly await your devastating critique!
--Mitchell Jones}***
 
> 
> Realize that most of the folks claiming over-unity results are not
> people familiar with or trained in the rigors of experimental physics.
> Analysis of experimental error is fundamental to experimental physics,
> since it is alway present in every experiment.
> 
> Still, when I introduced this consideration on sci.physics.fusion
> over four years ago, I was soundly rebuked for suggesting that 
> these researchers "had made a mistake."  Experimental error is
> not a mistake, but a fundamental fact of life.

***{You were soundly rebuked for wasting time posting vague speculations
about arguments that you *might* construct, rather than actually
constructing and posting such arguments. Needless to say, that is exactly
what you are doing again right now. If you want to argue, then argue; if
not, then don't. But please cease wasting everybody's time by
*threatening* to argue or speculating about arguments that *might* be
constructed. --Mitchell Jones}***

> 
> The scientific fact is, if you only know your energy input to 
> within, say, 10% (optimistic, considering the instrumentation used
> in these experiments)

***{More horsefeathers. The input power to the Hydrosonic pump was
measured by reading the shaft torque from a dynamometer that was accurate
within a fraction of 1%. You need to specifically address that case, if
you are to justify your claim that "it is not yet clear that an over-unity
result has ever been observed." --Mitchell Jones}***

, and and your output energy to a similar
> accuracy (Calorimety is very error prone), then your experimental
> uncertainty is 20%.  As a result, if your experiment yields an apparent
> 10% over-unity performance, and your experimental error is 20%, the
> experiment can be correctly said to yield null results.  Your results
> were withn the range of experimental error.

***{When applied to the specific case of the Hydrosonic Pump, which is the
most unarguable example of an over-unity result, what you are saying above
is pure nonsense. If you disagree then, to repeat: I challenge you to
explain, via a specific argument, how the specific instruments used in
those runs could have produced the kinds of cumulative errors you are
alleging here. I posted all the information you need a week or so ago. If
you can't find it, e-mail me and I will shoot the whole kit and kaboodle
over to you. --Mitchell Jones}***

> 
> This is one of the key issues in the CF debate.  Many of the 
> experimenters are not competent in the sophisticated techniques 
> required in experimental physics, while some of their critics 
> are.

***{Since you presumably consider yourself to be competent in these
sophisticated techniques, why don't you demonstrate your competence to us
by formulating a specific argument against the Hydrosonic Pump experiment
that I posted earlier? You have our undivided attention, Harry. It's time
to put up or shut up. --Mitchell Jones}***

> 
> It's a bit like trying to determine your power line voltage to
> within 1-Volt by using a 20% accuracy meter.  You simply can't
> do it, no matter how hard you try.

***{Yes, of course. Now demonstrate to us that this allusion is accurate,
by applying it to the Hydrosonic Pump. Prove to us that, as you say, "it
is not yet clear that an over-unity result has ever been observed."
--Mitchell Jones}***

> 
> This is why I suggest that first we detect some evidence of
> over-unity performance, then only on that occasion begin to
> postulate about its possible source.

***{I suggest that you back up your generalized speculations with specific
arguments, or else that you cease to waste our time. --Mitchell Jones}***

> 
> To do otherwise is to expend energy theorizing on the origins of
> life within a vacuum, lacking evidence that any exists.

***{More vague  allusions. As the lady used to say in the Wendy's
commercial: "where's the beef?" --Mitchell Jones}***

> 
>                                           Harry C.
>
 
===================================================
Notice: My posts are an invitation to those who wish to engage in reasoned
dialogue, and readers are encouraged to supply any  facts or logic which
they think may refute my conclusions or my reasoning. They should,
however, confine their comments to substantive matters. Reasoned discourse
is a polite and non-emotional exploration of evidence and logic, not a
put-down contest. Thus I am not interested in a respondent's unsupported
assertions, or in his wishful thinking, or in his educational credentials,
or in his claims or insinuations about his or my mental state; nor am I
interested in insulting, derisive, or mocking  comments. While anyone is
of course free to post anything he likes, I am also free to not read
material which does not interest me. Thus when I encounter, in a reply
that has been posted to me, clear evidence that the respondent intends to
engage in  a put-down contest, I will treat the offending party to an
appropriate cooling off period in my killfile. Present inmates of my
killfile are: Scott Nudds (release date: Jan. 1, 1999); Fred Kasner
(release date: Sept. 1, 1998).

===========================================================

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From: bward*remove_this* ix.netcom.com (Bill Ward)
Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower,sci.energy,sci.energy.hydrogen,sci.physics.fusion,sci.engr,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Over Unity Cold Fusion Experiment
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mjones jump.net (Mitchell Jones) wrote:

>In article <6qic6j$3d8 dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>bward*remove_this* ix.netcom.com (Bill Ward) wrote:

>> mjones jump.net (Mitchell Jones) wrote:
>> 
>> <snip intro of CF experiment>
>> 
I did some major snipping for bandwidth. I hope the remainder is
somewhat coherent.

>> >(3) Experimental Procedure: 
>> 
>> >(a) Warmup Phase: Place the insulating pad on the platform balance, and
>> >place the beaker and attached materials on it. Turn the system on and ramp
>> >up the voltage gradually, starting at about 20 volts, until the
>> >electrolyte temperature reaches about 80 degrees C. At that point, jump
>> >the voltage up to 120 and begin to move in gradual increments toward 180
>> >volts. At some point, you will begin to see a violet glow from the
>> >cathode, accompanied with the sounds of boiling water. 
>> 
>> Using a current source should give smoother control, as the voltage
>> would automatically adjust itself to the various phases. 
>> 
>> >(b) Steam Phase: At this point the current will drop into the range from
>> >.2 to .4 amps, due to formation of a boundary layer of steam around the
>> >cathode, with consequent increase in resistance to current flow.
>> 
>> Must be an arc in there somewhere, as steam is pretty nonconductive.
>> Otherwise, how is the current getting to the cathode?  And where's
>> the violet glow coming from?

>***{According to comments in the older papers referenced in the article
>(1925 and 1950), when the electrolyte has been pushed away and the cathode
>is cloaked in a thin film of gas, small arcs form to bridge the gap, as
>you suspected.

It appears most of the heat is generated in the plasma interface
between the electrolyte (bubbling) and the cathode.  That's where
most of the resistance is.

>As for the glow, it appears to be violet in the color
>photograph on the cover of *Infinite Energy* magazine. The description in
>the article is "brilliantly glowing pink, purple, lavender, with white
>flashes."

White flashes are weird, but the other effects aren't too surprising
in a 160V plasma.
 
>In any event, I place no credence in the over unity power
>measurements by themselves, because of the obvious suspicions that the
>waveform is unstable and more power is being sourced than is being
>measured. The thing that piques my interest is the over unity measurements
>*in conjunction* with the odd behavior of the tungsten cathode. As I noted
>in my original post, I am at a loss to explain the behavior of the
>tungsten, which has a larger cross section and, according to my
>*Handbook,* has a lower resistivity than the palladium. How then can it be
>hotter than the palladium?

How do you know it's hotter than the Pd? 

>Hell, even if it had higher resistivity than
>the palladium, what I see in the photo would make no sense: the tungsten
>is at the end of the cathode, roughly two-thirds of the way from the top
>of the water to the bottom. Thus why wouldn't the electron current bypass
>the tungsten and flow directly into the solution, if the resistance is
>concentrated in the tungsten? My point here is that what I see looks
>suspiciously like a *non-resistive heat source,* which is what would be
>required if the over unity numbers are real. In other words, I see no way
>that *electrical resistance heating* could cause the tungsten to be
>"brilliantly glowing pink, purple, lavender, with white flashes," given
>the geometry of the setup. The only hypothesis that makes sense out of the
>visual observations is that there is some energy source in the tungsten
>cathode that is independent of electrical resistance heating. That's the
>main reason I posted this experiment. I would like some comments about
>this from people who know far more about electronics than I do. Don
>Lancaster, for example, surely must have some comments about this. But, if
>he is not interested, is there *anyone* out there who can explain what is
>going on here? It really has me scratching my head! And, likewise, what
>about the chemistry? Perhaps Al Schwartz can hypothesize some chemical
>reaction which could lead to differential heating of the tungsten portion
>of the cathode? (I can't imagine what. Tungsten sure as hell isn't going
>to displace the K from the potassium carbonate, for example.) --Mitchell
>Jones}***
>    
Well, Mitch, I'm not in the same league with either of the two
gentlemen you mention, but my suspicion is that the effects (except
for over-unity!) can be explained by a high-resistance region
between the cathode and the solution.  Assume the solution is
approaching boiling while hydrogen is evolving from the cathode.
Increasing the voltage causes an electrical discharge, releasing
energy precisely wherever the solution contacts the cathode, so
maintaining a gas film insulating the cathode.  The gas (H2? H2O?),
not the tungsten, glows violet from the electrical 160 V excitation.
Perhaps the white flashes occur when H2 builds up on the cathode,
then suddenly catalytically reacts with the electrolyte when it
touches briefly.  Who knows? It's complex and might make an
interesting study, but it doesn't carry much weight with me as far
as over-unity behavior is concerned.  Asymmetric behavior in a DC
arc is to be expected.  The heat is evolved where the resistance is.

<snip>

>> >The Coefficient of Performance is then obtained by dividing the power out
>> >by the power in. For example, suppose that you boiled off 100 gms of water
>> >in a period of 50 minutes (3000 sec). In that case, Power out  =
>> >[(2260)(100)]/3000 = 75.3 joules/sec = 75.3 watts. If you  averaged .3
>> >amps at 160 volts, then power in = 48 watts, and the COP = (75.3)/48 =
>> >1.57, which is apparently about average for this setup, according to the
>> >*Infinite Energy* article from which this information was obtained.
>> 
>> >(5) Analysis: 
>> 
>> >(a) Assuming that this experiment is *not* over unity, then how are we to
>> >explain the difference between the behavior of the anode and the cathode?
>> >I am at a loss to explain, for example, why the tungsten heats up as much
>> >as it does. 
>> 
>> Why would you expect the cathode and anode to behave the same?  The
>> reactions are different.

>***{Yes, of course: hydrogen is liberated at the cathode and oxygen at the
>anode. But the question is, how does that state of affairs lead to this
>odd behavior of the tungsten? Is the tungsten reacting with the hydrogen
>in some sort of exothermic reaction, for example? *How do we explain the
>differential heating of the tungsten?* It can't be simply electrical
>resistive heating, because (a) the resistivity of the tungsten is lower
>than that of the platinum, and (b) even if it were not, the tungsten is at
>the lower end of the cathode, giving the electron current ample
>opportunity to exit directly from the platinum into the solution,
>bypassing the tungsten altogether. As I noted above, I am  mystified by
>this state of affairs. --Mitchell Jones}***

See above.  I think the resistive heating is in the plasma, not in
the electrode.  I don't even see any reason to believe the cathode
is particularly hotter than the anode.
>> 
>> >The resistivity of platinum at these temperatures, for
>> >example, appears to be higher than that of tungsten. At 1200 degrees C,
>> >for example, the resistivity of platinum is 52.7 ohm-cm, while that of
>> >tungsten is about 40 ohm-cm. Thus there would be a bit more current flow
>> >through the tungsten branch of a parallel circuit than through the
>> >platinum branch, but since the platinum sources the full load, I fail to
>> >see how the tungsten could wind up being hotter than the platinum. Even if
>> >we assume that *all* of the electron current exits the cathode through the
>> >tungsten, how does that wind up producing this kind of differential
>> >heating? If the entire electron current of, say .3 amps, passes through
>> >the platinum lead (which is .05 cm in diameter) and exits through the
>> >tungsten welding rod (which is 1/16 in or .159 cm in diameter) then by
>> >what principle of physics does the tungsten heat up, begin to produce a
>> >violet glow, and cloak itself behind a boundary layer of steam?

See above.  It's the plasma that's glowing, not the tungsten, I'll
bet.

> The
>> >tungsten has a larger cross sectional area to dissipate heat, and also a
>> >lower resistivity, than any comparable length of the platinum. Perhaps
>> >someone better versed in electronics than I (are you listening, Don
>> >Lancaster?) can explain this to me. The way I see it, if .3 amps flows
>> >through a platinum wire of diameter .05 cm and a resistivity of 53 ohm-cm,
>> >thence across a tungsten wire of diameter .159 cm and a resistivity of 40
>> >ohm-cm, how does the tungsten portion of the circuit get hotter than the
>> >platinum portion? The last I heard, resistance was directly proportional
>> >to resistivity, inversely proportional to cross-sectional area, and
>> >directly proportional to length. By this standard, a given length of
>> >platinum wire ought to get hotter than the same length of tungsten wire,
>> >right? What am I missing?
>> 
>> From your operating mode example of 0.3A and 160V, the total
>> effective resistance of the circuit is 533 ohms.  My guess is most
>> of that is in the violet glow (arc?) that is seen when the
>> resistance is high. 

>***{An absolutely reasonable supposition, until you focus on the fact that
>the tungsten is at the bottom of the cathode and, hence, there is no
>reason for the electron current to pass through the tungsten at all, if in
>fact the resistance of the tungsten is much higher. Why wouldn't the
>electrons simply follow the path of least resistance, and exit the cathode
>by jumping directly from the platinum to the H+ ions that are gathered
>around the cathode? --Mitchell Jones}***

Current will split up proportional to the conductance.  My guess is
that the cathode lead is insulated by a gas film, and most of the
current flows down to the higher surface area ionized plasma region.


> The electrodes are only a few ohms, so most of
>> the heat would appear elsewhere.  I don't think electrode resistance
>> is significant in this case.

>***{The differential heating of the tungsten is the fly in the ointment
>here. If this is simply electrical resistance heating, then the resistance
>must be concentrated in the tungsten, because that is obviously the main
>heat source.

I think you missed my point. It is not obvious to me that the
tungsten is the main heat source, because its resistance is too low.
I think the main heat source is the plasma. 
 
>But, in that case, we are faced with electrons that are not
>following the path of least resistance. Therefore we seem forced to the
>conclusion that something other than electrical resistance heating is
>raising the temperature of the tungsten. But what? Cold fusion? That
>certainly fits in with the over unity numbers, but it is not a conclusion
>that we ought to leap to without an exhaustive search for alternate
>explanations. But what explanation? --Mitchell Jones}***

First we need to verify 1) How hot is the tungsten cathode?, and 2)
Is it really putting out more energy than was input?  

>> 
>> Plasmas often (usually) exhibit negative resistance behavior, which
>> can cause oscillation or instability in the DC, giving an AC
>> component. 
>> 
>> By controlling the current, using some probes to determine where the
>> voltage drops are in the system, and watching the waveforms
>> carefully, I think the mystery can be solved. I'd bet that it will
>> turn out to be improper measurement of electrical power going into
>> the system.  It's not easy to measure AC power, even with all the
>> right equipment.  This may be a case of oversimplifying the
>> apparatus to the point of error.

>***{You are absolutely correct, but there are two mysteries here, not one.
>I, like you, want proof that the power measurements are reliable. However,
>the main mystery, to me, is the behavior of the tungsten portion of the
>cathode. I haven't a clue, at the moment, regarding what could be going on
>there. --Mitchell Jones}***

See speculations above.
>> 
<snip>


>> >(c) I haven't done this experiment yet, because I am not in the mood to
>> >construct the required power supply, and I have not yet succeeded in
>> >finding a commercial source. Perhaps Mr. Lancaster or someone else can
>> >point the group to someone who sells a power supply that would be adequate
>> >to this task.
>> 
>> Look up Acopian or HP "operational power supplies".  They are fast
>> responding programmable current or voltage sources that would be
>> ideal, but pricy.  Ordinary lab supplies will output controlled
>> voltage or current, but they are slower responding. May work fine,
>> though.  I'd try one of those first.  You can get them used for
>> about half retail price or better.  Check electronic surplus stores.

>***{I checked everything in my area. No luck. Do you know of any mail
>order houses that might have something like this. (I am out of the loop,
>I'm afraid. It has been a decade since I have done an electronics project.

I did a quick websearch and found the HP 6035A 500VDC   5A supply,
but no 200V supplies.   IC's just don't need that kind of volts. As
you probably know, HP makes good stuff, but it's not cheap. In days
of yore, that would be a middling power plate (B+) tube supply, so
if you know of any old time hams, you might find one in an attic
somewhere.  Also maybe in equipment retired from an electronics
school.  I don't see why you need a 5A supply, when the current
seems to be under an amp.  Maybe it's higher during the heating
phase.

<snip>

>> I'm skeptical, but I'll be glad to help out on the instrumentation
>> if you want.  One of us might convince the other, who knows?

>***{Please don't take me as an unqualified advocate. I am fascinated by
>this stuff, and I believe that some of these "over unity" claims are
>factual, but each specific claim still has to be justified on its own
>merits. 

>My general view of the "over unity" area is that there is far too much
>smoke for there to not be any fire. The problem which the proponents of
>orthodoxy face is simply that too much work has been done, by too many
>people, and too many "over unity" results have been achieved. One
>experiment, or even ten or twenty, can be dismissed on generalized
>grounds, as due to "probable experimental error." Thousands, however, are
>quite another matter. The difficulty in such cases becomes a matter of
>mathematics. Assume, for example, that the probability is .99 that a given
>"over unity" claim by a reputable scientist is due to experimental error,
>and that there are 1000 such claims. In that case, the probability that
>all 1000 claims are due to experimental error is (.99)^1000 = .0000432,
>*which means it is virtually certain that at least one of the claims is
>true*. And it only takes one: if one of these claims is true, the jig is
>up for the skeptics. In my view, therefore, the jig is up. 

Using the same logic, couldn't we prove there are E.T.'s walking
around amongst us?  And no, I can't prove we don't, but I don't
worry much about it, either.

<snip Holocaust analogy>

>Nevertheless, thus far, the Hydrosonic Pump is the only device which seems
>to me to be *unambiguously* over unity. In that specific case I simply
>cannot imagine how the numbers I have seen could be due to an accumulation
>of measuring errors. Too many engineering teams have run calorimetry in
>Grigg's shop, and the experimental setup has been modified too many ways,
>all with over unity results. 

>Anyway, since I am strongly inclined to believe that there is something to
>this "over unity" stuff, I would like to tinker with some of these devices
>myself, and since the Griggs device has the strongest credentials, it is a
>tempting choice. Unfortunately, playing with one of Griggs' machines would
>set me back $10 or $20 k, and I would need a full machine shop to build
>rotor variants, as I would want to do, in hopes of improving the
>efficiency. That is a bit too rich for my blood. 

>As for the Pons-Fleischmann types of electrochemical cells, well, I view
>them as much more problematical. Broadly defined, this group includes the
>CETI type power cells and the tungsten cathode setup we are discussing
>here, and each and every incarnation has the same problems relating to the
>measurement of input power. Whenever the load is prone to random sparking,
>power measurements become a bitch. That fact, coupled with the admitted
>inconsistency and the claims that high art is required to even obtain the
>occasional over unity results, has in the past deterred me from dabbling
>in the area. (My experiments with the flow calorimetry setup used by CETI
>in the Power Gen Demo several years ago convinced me that high art was
>claimed more often than it was present!) 

>The tungsten cathode setup which we have been discussing, however, is
>being put forth with claims that *apparent* over unity is virtually
>guaranteed, and that high art is not required to achieve it. (Gene Mallove
>was careful to *not* make an unqualified claim that this setup is over
>unity, by the way.) It is a fairly low budget project, and any amateur
>with basic electronics skills can make this work, or so it is said. Thus I
>am highly tempted to try it. Prior to that, however, I want to thoroughly
>dissect the design in a public forum. (I prefer to detect flaws in the
>planning stage rather than in the experimental stage. Thus if anyone can
>shoot this down before I have laid my money on the table, they will
>receive my thanks.) What I am interested in, however, are specific
>objections of the sort you have been raising, rather than the types of
>contentless generalities that I have been getting from some others. Such
>people typically begin with the assumption that over unity is impossible
>and work backwards from there, to propose non-specific guesswork
>concerning where the experimenters went wrong (e.g., "measurement error").
>Such posts, in my view, are simply a waste of time. Those who cannot
>propose specific causal arguments that elucidate the physics or the
>chemistry of this design have nothing worthwhile to contribute here, and I
>would appreciate it very much if they would simply butt out.
>Realistically, of course, Hell will freeze over before they will do so.
>Instead, fully 90% of the posts to this thread will likely be from people
>who have nothing worthwhile to say. That is about par for the course,
>based on past experience.  

I view the CF and related issues as a puzzle to be solved.  There is
no doubt the reports exist, but why do they exist?  Is there really
an effect no one can quite zero in on, like crystal rectifiers in
the 20's?  Or is it a UFO-like phenomenon, where people (IMHO) need
to believe in something and grasp at any unusual happening as
evidence which builds on itself through self reference?

Or is it just a scam, with people selling snake oil to suckers as
fast and as long as they can?  

It's got to be some mixture of the above, and probably some I
haven't thought of, but it's interesting to watch.  I hope there is
a useful effect there, but so far Nature has shown profound
indifference to my wishes.

Regards,
Bill Ward


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 12 20:55:26 1998
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: 1st  Little Critque (incandescent W)
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
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At 05:33 PM 8/12/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

>Performed by Scott Little, you mean? I'd be willing to bet you would get nil
>results on....

Sorry I'm taking up your air, Fred. I was just trying to be nice by
acknowledging your post and offering a hopefully acceptable excuse for
never trying any of the experiments you propose.

Scott

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 01:28:19 1998
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:26:28 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FREE ENERGY
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On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 SciBorg8 aol.com wrote:

> So what are all of your plans for what you would do with your free energy
> technology? 
> 
> Eric
> 
We do it for the fun of it. We do it to make money/achieve recognition. 
We don't do it so that joe public can have an easy life whilst we live in 
poverty.

Think about it.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 01:33:16 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: thermodynamics problem
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It's amazing how simple things get complicated with spliel.

I must find the joke about the electrical enigneer, the software 
engineer, the King and the toaster...

Professional lead swinging - you know the type of thing, secret 
languages, hieroglyphics, learned societies, bastions, bullshit.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 03:16:59 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: RE: FREE ENERGY
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Further to the last post,


The desire for recognition and money you make think shallow, but that 
allows one to attract funding and do more experiments and keep in the 
game which surely is a pure motive.

I've had it up to here with liberals! I have a neighbour on welfare who
bemoans the fact that I have more than him (a house, a car, blue chip
sector job, he thinks I'm wealth). He can call me every name under the sun
and get away with it 'cos he's a victim, his only achievement in life was
to get married to early have too many kids and now is going nowhere. He
won't even do voluntary work. I should kick his head in, but liberal arsed
pussies have made the law such that I get in trouble. Extreme harassment!
So called socialist, so called lovers of humanity. Ever damn liberal do 
gooder has given justificatioin to think I'm evil 'cos I like wealth and 
look out for number one, or I'm a faggot or worse 'cos I wouldn't get 
married until I've got what I want from life.

There is a conspricay against healthy indepdent young people.

Gotta work. No more for today, I think.

 Sorry mornings do this to me. Remi. 
(I wouldn't often do this but if you had a heart you'd understand. Do 
something today, stop the rot that's set into society! Use free enrgy as 
the metaphor)

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Subject: toaster joke, last for today
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Okay,

A king called together the wise men of his country to solve a problem 
with his toaster: he wanted his bread done from the five shades of 
darkness to holy golden lightness (are we sitting comfortably, then I'll 
begin). An electrical engineer came froward and said all you need is a 
rheostat coupled to the elemetnt with five positions corresponding to the 
five levels of darkness. I'll have that done by tomorrow.

Then the software engineer came forward. Mmmh? (those who remember the 
joke, post it c'cos I'm going to ad-lib) said he, this is a problem in 
object oriented problem decomposition. You need to define a class called 
toasted objects and then sub-classes s corresponding to different styles 
of food. .. Oh it goes on , I can't remember it.

In the end the software engineer neede for the toaster a pc with 16meg of 
memory running linux, the user would click with the mouse a boot icon to 
invoke the toaster and on and on.

I thought it was funny.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 06:42:33 1998
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At 08:19 8/13/98 -0500, ZPE wrote:

>You probably have received other replies since I began writing this, one
of >which may have contained the answer you were looking for.

The answer I'm looking for is one I can understand fully.  So far, all I've
gotten is relief that the question apparently was not trivial....<g>

>...replacing the gas in the piston chamber with an incompressible fluid
such >as water.

A useful thought experiment.  I can certainly "see" how the external agent
is responsible for accelerating all the water that jets out of the orifice.

>The "missing" 202.65 joules of mechanical energy ends up in the laboratory
as >thermal energy from two separate sources of conversion.

Certainly a reasonable place for the energy to end up.  But why is this
heat not observed in the original Joule experiment (assume an ideal gas is
used so the Joule-Thompson coeff. is zero)?

>Thermodynamics has been my passion for many years so I love addressing
these >types of questions.

Great. I have a list of them to ask.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 07:54:03 1998
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Oh I see what your getting at now, sorry.

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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Wha-wha-wha / Kellogg
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To: Vortex

Scott Little says the Dennis Cravens recommends you fiddle with the voltage
until you get an oscillating wha-wha-wha sound:

     . . . he said to turn up the voltage until the cell goes Wha-wha-wha
     (hint: use the voice of Marge Simpson's sisters to simulate this noise)
     and then turn it down just a bit.

That's wha-wha, but if you use 1950s lab equipment it goes: do-wah, do-whaaaa
. . ., and possibly be-bob a ree-bop (see: G. Keilor, "Culinary and auditory
effects with rhubarb pie: Evidence for a relativistic time warp?" J. Prairie
H. Comp., April 1, 1995).

Similar oscillations are visually observed, and explained by Kellogg. He
describes rapid vibrations or oscillations:

     *The anode-effect film is primarily a water-vapor film surrounding a hot
     wire.* The electrolyte is pushed back from the electrode surface by the
     vapor pressure of the electrolyte, which exceeds one atmosphere as a
     result of high electrode temperature. If the film attempts to collapse
     under the influence of hydrostatic forces when the electrolyte surface
     approaches close to the anode, further vaporization will take place and
     push the electrolyte back.

     The hypothesis of the forces which maintain the film is in accordance
     with the visual observation of the anode-effect film. The surface of the
     film is not stationary, but vibrates rapidly toward and away from the
     electrode surface (see Fig. 5). Since the electrode can lose heat by
     conduction up through its length, the bottom tip of the wire is the
     hottest part (this was established experimentally by the observation on
     the platinum wire anode that the bottom section could be made to glow at
     a red heat, while the top gave no visible radiation).

     [An experiment to test this hypothesis is described, performed with a
     hot Nichrome wire.]

Unfortunately, I cannot type more of this paper today because several rush
jobs have come up, especially 23 pages of footnotes from Mizuno for the book
which he neglected to send me earlier. The Japanese publisher omitted most of
these because they are "too technical." Some of them are too technical for me,
too, like "Auger effect," "K-electron capture" and "neutrino." I'll have to do
a lot of remedial reading of Encyclopedia Britannica and "Physics Made Simple"
before I can translate this stuff. Reading a footnote is one thing, rendering
it in scientifically correct English is another.

Scott: Since I do not have time to type this Kellogg paper, I suggest you call
Hal Fox and ask him to fax you a copy.


Elsewhere Scott relates Cravens' results:

     He gets only 8-15% excess heat.  He also never runs the cathode to
     incandescence, partly because he uses huge W rods.  He just runs with
     the sparkly dancing electrical fire.

Perhaps he only gets marginal excess heat because he does not run the cathode
to incandescence.


I do not have time for this paper, but attached are some more quotes I have
already entered. This paper sounds simple-minded and then the complexity
sneaks up on you. I prefer this style. I think scientific writing in the 1940s
and '50s was better than it is today.

I think the Kellogg paper is important because Kellogg performed a number of
tests to sort out the conventional chemical and electrochemical aspects of the
system.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

More from Herbert H. Kellogg, "Anode Effect in Aqueous Electrolysis," Journal
of the Electrochemical Society, April 1950

     A property of the anode-effect film which is of considerable interest
and importance is its ability to conduct electric current. The anode effect
would be impossible if the film were a nonconductor, since it is the heat
dissipated by the current that heats the electrode surface and maintains the
vapor film. The mechanism of conduction through the vapor film is by no means
clear, but the following observations and discussion throw some light on it.

     When the platinum-wire anode is used in a an electrolyte of sulfuric
acid, the only visible signs of current conduction are rather infrequent and
tiny sparks across the anode film. On the other hand, if a little sodium
sulfate is added to the electrolyte (or if sodium hydroxide is in the
electrolyte), the anode film is seen to emit a yellow glow, characteristic of
sodium emission. With a cell voltage of 70 volts and an electrolyte
temperature of 40 deg C, the anode surface is covered with a great many
(perhaps 100) bright yellow spots, but there is no general glow. When the
voltage is raised to 110 volts a yellow glow pervades most of the anode
surface. The intensity of the glow varies on any one position of the surface
with a periodicity that is similar to the vibration of the vapor film
described earlier. The glow does not exist out in the wide portions of the
film; it is confined close to the anode surface.

[Elsewhere he says the glow is blue at the cathode with 110 volts, blue being
characteristic of hydrogen emission.]

     Based upon the above observations, and without rigorous proof, the
following hypothesis regarding current conduction across the film is offered:

     Very little conduction can take place across the wide portions (0.2 to
2.0 mm thick) of the film, as evidenced by the lack of sodium glow in the wide
portion of the film. In those portions of the film which are sufficiently thin
(perhaps 0.2 mm judging from the photograph in Fig. 5), the potential gradient
is sufficiently high to cause ionization of the gases within the film and
current conduction will take place by migration of the gaseous ions. This
ionization may be sufficiently intense to cause a visible discharge in the gas
. . . Since one portion of the film is periodically approaching closer to the
electrode and then receding, the conduction across the film at that point will
also vary and the intensity of the glow will vary, thus, the flickering aspect
of the glow is described.

     Since appreciable current still flows during the anode effect, there
must be some electrolytic reaction taking place at the anode. On the other
hand, visual observation of the anode during the anode effect shows no
formation of gas bubbles. The seat of the electrolytic reaction must now be
the electrolyte-gas interface. This type of electrolysis, where the metal
electrode is separated from the electrolyte by a gaseous region, has been
described as long ago as 1887 by Gubkin (5) and studied at length by Klemenc
(6). However, these studies involved low pressure (5 - 15 mm of Hg) in the gas
phase and real glow-discharge conduction was obtained . . .

[More interesting detail follows, particularly in the description of the
transition phase. Yesterday I raised the questions: How much electrolysis is
occurring? How much disassociated gas should there be? This mode of
electrolysis may not be well understood.]


One more quote. Kellogg begins by saying that in most cases, the anode and
cathode effects are virtually the same:


*Aqueous Cathode-effect.*

     In all of the experiments and hypotheses discussed above there is no
factor which is peculiar to anodes alone. If the hypotheses are correct, then
one could predict that a cathode which evolved gas and which is operated at a
high current density should show a similar behavior . . .  Such is found to be
the case.

. . .

     With cathodes, however, there is yet another phenomenon that takes
place. If the solution contains sodium sulfate, or of sodium hydroxide is used
as the electrolyte, the "cathode effect" is not obtained. Instead, the cathode
surface is covered with a multitude of what appear to be spark discharges
(blue color), no wide vapor film develops, and the surface of the cathode
remains at 100 deg C or slightly lower. Apparently some kind of film does form
around the cathode because the meniscus at the electrolyte surface slips down,
just as during the "cathode effect" or anode effect. However, the wide
vapor-envelope which can be clearly seen during the true "cathode effect" is
absent in this case. The explanation of this phenomenon lies out of the scope
of this paper, but the writer feels that a different mechanism of electric
conduction between the electrolyte and the electrode surface is probably
responsible for this phenomenon . . .

. . . alas, we'll probably never know what he had in mind, because I suppose
Dr. Kellogg is retired or deceased by now. I wonder if he wrote any follow-up
papers?

* End of File *

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 09:56:52 1998
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:56:00 +0200
From: "Jean - Paul Bibérian" <biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
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Hi Scott,

I was away from an internet link for a few days, and just discovered your
experiment with tungsten. As you know, we have tried to replicate this
experiment unsuccessfully. However, I agree fully with Jed, this is no proof.
We ran only two experiments, one with platinum, and the other one with
tungsten. But even if I cook pastas twice, I am not sure I can get close to an
Italian chef. We have already so many experiments going on that we just did a
quick experiment, in case....

Regarding the recombination of gases I believe that you don't have to worry
about it. If you use 160 Volts for electrolysis, the water decomposition counts
for only 1.54 Volt, so this is less than 1%, therefore negligible, unless the
effect is less than that....

Jean-Paul

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 10:02:21 1998
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Subject: "ZPE" on thermo problem
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Oops!....I thought everyone was seeing what the new guy, "ZPE", was saying
about my thermo problem.  Here's his first comment:

Scott, 
I am sorry to say that of the first three persons who replied, only Mr.
Heffner came close to the real answer you are looking for when he made
reference to "momentum" in his following statement:

I should have also noted that the expelled gas will be hotter as well, due
to the momentum of being expelled, plus heat transfer from the nozzel and
cylider walls.
You probably have received other replies since I began writing this, one of
which may have contained the answer you were looking for.  If so, I
apologize, but I am composing this answer assuming no one else has replied
with the true answer.  The e-mail address I am replying to you from is at a
different location than the one through which I receive list postings,
therefore, I do not know if you have received additional replies, nor will
I receive your reply to this post unless you reply to this e-mail address
(zpe pdq.net) as well as to the list.

To keep the problem as simple as possible, let's assume that the piston
chamber and piston exists within the laboratory where the back side of the
piston is exposed to the laboratory, as Mr. Heffner also suggested.  This
maintains the initial volume of this example as a constant.  The "missing"
202.65 joules of mechanical energy ends up in the laboratory as thermal
energy from two separate sources of conversion.  To a lesser degree,
orifice viscosity converts some of the mechanical energy into thermal
energy, but most of the missing mechanical energy is first converted into
kinetic energy in the high velocity jet stream of gas passing through the
orifice.  This is in addition to the stream velocity increase resulting
directly from expansion of the gas.  To prove this distinction let's remove
the process of expansion from our example for a moment by replacing the gas
in the piston chamber with an incompressible fluid such as water.  By
having the piston push against the water at a constant 2 atmospheres (1
atmosphere net), it's easy to see that a stream of water will pass through
the orifice at a significant velocity.  The kinetic energy of this water
stream (calculated using the water density and its velocity) is equal to
the missing 202.65 joules of mechanical energy (less the relatively small
amount lost to orifice viscosity).  Of course, this kinetic energy is
converted into thermal energy once the expelled fluid comes to rest in the
laboratory (on the floor, on the wall, in the lab technician's face, wherever)
Also, you should note that the linear speed of the piston is directly
dependent on the density of the fluid being forced through the orifice.
Although viscosity is certainly present, it is not the primary cause of the
resistance the fluid offers in passing through the orifice.  Instead, it is
in the inertia of the fluid as it accelerates through the orifice.  This is
why the piston will move faster in pushing air through the orifice than
when pushing water through it.  Since air is less dense, a given amount of
mechanical energy will accelerate air to a higher velocity quicker allowing
more volume to be displaced in a given amount of time.  The fact that air
will expand when injected into a lower pressure environment is completely
independent of the piston displacement process.
I hope this explanation is clear enough.  Thermodynamics has been my
passion for many years so I love addressing these types of questions.  As a
reminder, please CC your reply post to my personal e-mail address for
reasons described above.  Thanks!

ZPE <zpe pdq.net>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 10:05:43 1998
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Subject: "ZPE" again
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....and here's what he said to my bunch of comments and one question:

>If my memory serves me correctly (correct me if I'm wrong), the original
Joule experiment did not involve any external agent such as a piston, but
involved only the opening of a valve that allowed a gas to pass from one
chamber into an evacuated chamber.  In their experiment, the only source of
energy in the equation existed within the pressurized gas before expansion.
 In your example, the piston moving against a resistance introduces a
second source of energy completely separate from thermal energy within the
pressurized gas.  Both sources of energy act to accelerate the gas through
the orifice.  The resulting thermal energy of the expanded gas is a
combination of the original thermal energy present in the gas before
expansion and the mechanical energy exerted by the piston, therefore,
resulting in a net increase in temperature in the ideal gas.

ZPE


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 10:43:23 1998
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:39:16 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: incandescent W
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To: Vortex; >INTERNET:biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr

Jean - Paul Biberian writes:

     Regarding the recombination of gases I believe that you don't have to
     worry about it. If you use 160 Volts for electrolysis, the water
     decomposition counts for only 1.54 Volt . . . therefore negligible . . .

We think the high heat might fracture the water, adding to the free H2 and O2
gas. This would carry off energy and make the calorimetry wrong. The gas
evolution and the formation of the bubble are mysterious. As Kellogg explains
regarding molten electrolysis:

     . . . The explanations for the stability of the gaseous envelope to be
     found in the literature all center about a *gaseous film* -- one
     stabilized by a rush of noncondensable gases (O2, CO1, CO2) (9) There
     are at least two considerations that make such an explanation untenable.
     In the first place, in the laboratory cell, when the anode effect
     starts, the current will usually drop by 1/5 to 1/10 of its previous
     value. This means that during anode effect only 1/5 to 1/10 as much gas
     is being evolved as before anode effect. Thus, one is forced to explain
     how a small amount of gas will cause a gaseous envelope to form, where
     five or ten times that amount of gas was unable to do so. Second, it is
     not hard to show by means of hydrodynamics that the velocity of gas
     required to hold back the electrolyte from the anode at any reasonable
     depth in the electrolyte, is very large and far more than one could
     obtain from molten electrolysis.

     The writes is planning a future paper which will attempt to apply the
     vapor-film theory of aqueous anode-effect to anode effect in molten
     electrolysis . . .

- Jed

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At 18:56 8/13/98 +0200, Jean - Paul Bibérian wrote:

>As you know, we have tried to replicate this
>experiment unsuccessfully. However, I agree fully with Jed, this is no proof.

>But even if I cook pastas twice, I am not sure I can get close to an
>Italian chef.

Yeah, but you do get food.  Why don't we see smaller excess heat effects in
less-than-perfect experiments?  (rhetorical question!...please don't try to
answer)

>Regarding the recombination of gases I believe that you don't have to worry
>about it. If you use 160 Volts for electrolysis, the water decomposition
counts
>for only 1.54 Volt, so this is less than 1%, therefore negligible, unless the
>effect is less than that....

I agree but I think Jed was raising the Meyerian (after Stan Meyers)
possibility that magic in the cell was causing a lot more H2 & O2 to be
created than one would expect from the current.  I'm going to try it
several ways.  I will measure the gas flow from the cell.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 11:19:18 1998
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Subject: Re: incandescent W
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To: Vortex

Scott Little misunderstands here:

    I think Jed was raising the Meyerian (after Stan Meyers)
    possibility that magic in the cell was causing a lot more H2 & O2 to be
    created than one would expect from the current.

Nothing magic about it. High temperatures will fracture water into O2 and
H2 gas. We discussed that recently here with regard to arson fires set with
rocket fuel. I am not sure if the cathode is hot enough . . . If it melts
tungsten, it must be way up there. Perhaps something else is eating the
tungsten, like cavitation.

As Kellogg pointed out, SOMETHING is forming that bubble, and it is not
condensable. Maybe it is H2. Maybe there is than with regular electrolyis,
not less as Kellogg thinks.


    I'm going to try it several ways.  I will measure the gas flow from the
    cell.

How? With a gas flowmeter? A good one costs a fortune and a cheap one will
not be sensitive enough. That's why I say eliminate the problem by burning
the stuff.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 11:52:42 1998
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: incandescent W
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At 12:44 PM 8/13/98 -0500, Scott Little wrote:

>I agree but I think Jed was raising the Meyerian (after Stan Meyers)
>possibility that magic in the cell was causing a lot more H2 & O2 to be
>created than one would expect from the current.  I'm going to try it
>several ways.  I will measure the gas flow from the cell.

  Where did Meyers state that "magic in the cell was 
causing a lot more H2 & O2 to be created than one would 
expect from the current."?


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 13:49:10 1998
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I'm certainly not advocating just giving away free energy technology so as to
not make any money. I just want to know what everybody thinks about the issue.
You know, what's the driving force in the free energy researcher/inventor? 

One of the things I was wondering about is the to patent or not to patent
question. Obviously, if you are of the oppinion to make great amounts of money
then of course you would get U.S. and international patents. And to find a
manufacturer or start a company yourself. And make money and the recognition
will follow. 

Eric

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 14:38:01 1998
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> I'm certainly not advocating just giving away free energy technology  > so as to not make any money. I just want to know what everybody thinks > about the issue. You know, what's the driving force in the free energy > researcher/inventor?

Hi Eric,

Personally I don't believe much money can be made from selling F/E
devices, and I probably wouldn't try to make money by selling them.
I do think the use of F/E devices could greatly lower production costs,
and stuff like that, but in general I think the basic technology
should be given away.. On a large scale, it would benefit everyone
more than selling it. I've been researching this stuff for almost
2 years now but have only done a few simple experiments, and my
main "driving force" is a better society.. Millions of dollars would
be nice, as it could finance other things, but I'd rather live in
a better society with an "average" income than have a lot of money
and live in a society like we have today.

> One of the things I was wondering about is the to patent or not to  > patent question. Obviously, if you are of the oppinion to make great > amounts of money then of course you would get U.S. and international > patents. And to find a manufacturer or st
art a company yourself. And > make money and the recognition will follow.

Hmm.. you could patent something and still give it away, correct?
Some income from royalties would be nice, but I guess it would depend
on what the device actually is.. eg. simple new type of coil
winding for a generator/motor, or a complex electronic device.. Anyway,
I don't have anything to patent, so I hadn't really thought about it.
The best situation, in my opinion, would be for everyone to stop using
money, and have a "free" society, based on sharing of resources..
yeah I know, not likely to happen any time soon.. but it's a nice
thought. ;)

ttyl
-Steve
-- 
     darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616    
   DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net
Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 15:15:15 1998
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: incandescent W
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At 14:13 8/13/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>How? With a gas flowmeter?

With a stopwatch and an inverted graduated cylinder completely full of
water.  
Let the gas bubble up into the inverted cyl. for a timed period, observe
the collected volume of gas.

It works great...accurate to about 2% relative.  At very low flow rates you
get errors due to the dissolution of gas into the water unless you arrange,
as Schaeffer's group cleverly did in the "bead days", to keep the water
saturated with gas.

Mitchell asks about Meyers claims:

Wasn't Meyers the one that claimed an electrolysis process that produced
more than the expected amount of H2 and O2 from a given electrical current
through the cell?  If so, then that would qualify as magic under the Asimov
definition.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 15:16:00 1998
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Subject: Re: incandescent W
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At 05:10 PM 8/13/98 -0500, Scott Little repeats:


>Mitchell asks about Meyers claims:
>
>Wasn't Meyers the one that claimed an electrolysis process that produced
>more than the expected amount of H2 and O2 from a given electrical current
>through the cell?  If so, then that would qualify as magic under the Asimov
>definition.
>
>

  The question was about Scott Little's claim.

  Was Meyers quoted or was this attribution made up?


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 15:51:50 1998
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On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Steve wrote:

> 
> Personally I don't believe much money can be made from selling F/E
> devices, and I probably wouldn't try to make money by selling them.
> I do think the use of F/E devices could greatly lower production costs,
> and stuff like that, but in general I think the basic technology
> should be given away.. On a large scale, it would benefit everyone
> more than selling it. I've been researching this stuff for almost
> 2 years now but have only done a few simple experiments, and my
> main "driving force" is a better society.. Millions of dollars would
> be nice, as it could finance other things, but I'd rather live in
> a better society with an "average" income than have a lot of money
> and live in a society like we have today.

Most admirable sentiment.

  Eric said:
> 
> > One of the things I was wondering about is the to patent or not to >
> patent question. Obviously, if you are of the oppinion to make great >
> amounts of money then of course you would get U.S. and international >
> patents. And to find a manufacturer or start a company yourself. And >
> make money and the recognition will follow. 
> 

Steve responded:

> Hmm.. you could patent something and still give it away, correct?
> Some income from royalties would be nice, but I guess it would depend
> on what the device actually is.. eg. simple new type of coil
> winding for a generator/motor, or a complex electronic device.. Anyway,
> I don't have anything to patent, so I hadn't really thought about it.
> The best situation, in my opinion, would be for everyone to stop using
> money, and have a "free" society, based on sharing of resources..
> yeah I know, not likely to happen any time soon.. but it's a nice
> thought. ;)

Well "nice" ...yes. Practical ,well I would like to see or learn of any
historical examples of such a society without money of some kind. Whatever
sort of goods you have could be used to "trade", right? Or if you don't
have anything tangible in that way you could work and perhaps get
something in return. And that something could be used like "money" to get
something else , no?

So how would you acquire anything if there wasn't some kind of commerce
happening? 

However, I think you are onto something with this vague distrust of money
you appear to have ,Steve -

Can you narrow it down a little for us?

Jim

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 16:27:33 1998
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Hi Jim,

> Well "nice" ...yes. Practical ,well I would like to see or learn of
>any historical examples of such a society without money of some kind.
>Whatever sort of goods you have could be used to "trade", right? Or if
>you don't have anything tangible in that way you could work and perhaps
>get something in return. And that something could be used like "money"
>to get something else , no?

Exactly! It actually started out as designing a "perfect society" for
a book I was thinking of writing 2 years ago, but since then I've
been thinking about this society, and ways to make it a reality. ;)
Basically it's dependant on people not being greedy, which is why
I said it's not likely to happen any time soon.. The most basic
concepts are that people don't "charge" more for something than they
actually need, and they trade what they produce for other items or
services.. eg. farmer gives food to the government which is then
distributed to the people, and in exchange, the farmer gets a house,
car, whatever he needs.. (direct trade.. no currency)

Anyway, I have a lot more to say about this idea, as I've given it a lot
of thought, but since it's pretty much off topic for both lists,
if anyone's interested they can contact me privately..

By the way.. I haven't studied economics, so this idea may sound
impractical.. but it's the society I'd like to live in. :)

ttyl
-Steve

p.s. yeah.. you got it right.. I don't like money much at all.. 
unfortunately, it would take a lot of money to create this society,
but hopefully it could be self-sustaining once it was started..
It would also help if it was on another planet, something to think
about when we start colonizing other planets in the next century. :)
-- 
     darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616    
   DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net
Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 16:58:31 1998
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:45:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: "N. A. Palmer" <nick7 itl.net>
cc: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>, Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
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	Dear Nick,

	Phase velocity can be modulated by altering the properties of the 
an helical antenna, those parameters are pitch and ratio of diamater ot 
inter coil spacing.  This is to be found in antenna books.

	Methods include, but are not limited to;

	a] use two antennas and switch between them
	b] use one antenna and electronically or magnetically or 
dielectrically modify the antenna properties.

	This methodology allows the phase propagation velocity to be 
controlled from sub C to C to superlumal.  Once a continuous wave has 
propagated from transmit to receive location the phase change information 
can exceed C... equal C or be less than C.

	John	"Will design and-or replicate for food" Schnurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 16:58:48 1998
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:58:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: PSI book, shameful review.
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I cannot praise THE CONSCIOUS UNIVERSE highly enough.  I've mentioned it
here before.  It's a review of the findings of contemporary
parapsychology, aimed at the non-science reader.  Disturbing! 

I just stumbled across a site which reveals a very familiar situation. 
The journal NATURE reviewed the above book.  It was the expected hatchet
job, since everyone knows that parapsychology is bunk, right?  :) 
Unfortunately, the statistician who wrote the review made an embarassing
blunder.  The findings at trillions of billions against chance turn out to
be correct, and the reviewer was wrong.  His argument (and even the very
title of the review) were entirely faulty.  Nature refused to print a
correction, or to print any of the complaining letters.  Then Nature
printed a correction many months later, but regarding a separate issue.
Finally Nature printed the author's letter.   See:

  NATURE'S REVIEW:  http://mail.cruzio.com/~quanta/review.html

  THE CORRESPONDENCE: http://mail.cruzio.com/~quanta/badgood.html
                      http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10/psi/
                      http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10/psi/rossman.html

  THE BOOK:  http://www.PsiResearch.org/book.html

Note:  Chapter 13, A FIELD GUIDE TO SKEPTICISM, is even more interesting
than material in the book FORBIDDEN SCIENCE regarding some of the shameful
"pathological" behavior common to skepticism. 




If you want to help out SCIENCE HOBBYIST, order from here:
 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0062515020/sciencehobbyist/

A conflict of interest?  OK, then order through the author's site, or 
directly from amazon:
 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0062515020/consciousnessresA/
 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0062515020/

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 17:59:15 1998
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Subject: Re: incandescent W
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At 06:06 PM 8/13/98 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>  The question was about Scott Little's claim.
>  Was Meyers quoted or was this attribution made up?

I'm sorry the term "magic" irritated you, Mitchell.  I used it simply to
describe a process not yet understood.  I wasn't quoting Meyers.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 18:05:00 1998
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I'm certainly not trying to look down on anything you are saying. All I would
say about this society you were talking about. 

As long as humans live in it, it doesn't seem likely that it could exist. You
couldn't force people to give up anything they believe is rightfully theirs.
And to think of forcing someone to act that way is a dangerous road (i.e.
communism). A non-profit human society by logic is unrealistic because all
human societies have been profit driven. 

Like I was talking about communism. Marx said all military and international
happenings such as all wars and feuds were only rooted completely in economic
confrontations. That implies a lot of this for this society. 

And it wouldn't take a lot of money to start this society. It would take a lot
of goods. Money is only money, paper and worthless. It's the value in goods
that makes it valuable nothing more. 

Eric

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 18:14:34 1998
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:03:31 -0400
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: incandescent W
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At 07:59 PM 8/13/98 -0500, Scott wrote:
>At 06:06 PM 8/13/98 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>
>>  The question was about Scott Little's claim.
>>  Was Meyers quoted or was this attribution made up?
>
>I'm sorry the term "magic" irritated you, Mitchell.  I used it simply to
>describe a process not yet understood.  I wasn't quoting Meyers.


  Scott,

   'Magic' does not irritate me.  

    False attributions irritate me.  

    You first claimed you quoted Meyers, and now say you were not 
"quoting Meyers".

  You said:
>Wasn't Meyers the one that claimed an electrolysis process that produced
>more than the expected amount of H2 and O2 from a given electrical current
>through the cell?  If so, then that would qualify as magic under the Asimov
>definition.


   Did he actually state that which you purport he said?
   Did you have a quote? 
     or were you just making this up?

   Best wishes.
    Mitchell Swartz




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 18:14:46 1998
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Subject: W input power
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Late today I got around to looking at the current and voltage waveforms on
the incandescent W experiment.

WOW!  The current really behaves unusually.  Tomorrow I'll collect a couple
of typical waveforms and post them on my web site.  You will be
amazed....and dismayed.  

This will NOT be an easy input power measurement!  

Folks using an ordinary DVM to measure the current are almost certainly
getting the wrong answer.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 18:26:23 1998
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Hi Eric,

> You couldn't force people to give up anything they believe is
> rightfully theirs. And to think of forcing someone to act that way is
> dangerous road (i.e. communism). A non-profit human society by logic
> is unrealistic because all human societies have been profit driven.

Ok, to provide an example, look at Star Trek.. on the starships at
least, there is no money.. people simply do their jobs and in exchange
get what they need to survive. (eg. food, place to live, medical
care, clothing, etc.) 

> Like I was talking about communism. Marx said all military and 
> international happenings such as all wars and feuds were only rooted
> completely in economic confrontations. That implies a lot of this for
> this society.

Hmm.. I don't think this is true, because there would still be disputes
over land, religion, etc. many other causes besides money.. ;)

> And it wouldn't take a lot of money to start this society. It would
> take a lot of goods. Money is only money, paper and worthless. It's
> the value in goods that makes it valuable nothing more.

That's true.. when I said this society would need money to get started,
I meant money would be needed for the supplies, ie. goods, like you
mentioned.. and it would most likely only work for a space colony
or something like that, because most people who are used to a
capitalist society would resist this new type of society, for exactly
the reasons you stated. :)

ttyl
-Steve
-- 
     darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616    
   DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net
Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 19:02:32 1998
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From: SciBorg8 aol.com
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:57:47 EDT
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I'm was just telling you what Marx said. And I was talking about disputes on
the global scale not the people's court.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 19:08:36 1998
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Sure I love Star Trek and I believe a society "like" that could be created.
Also remember Gene Roddenberry was a devote aethist. The Star Trek world
reflect this. It makes you wonder what imposed all of those selfless actions
in the Star Trek world. And if everyone thought the same way what kind of a
world is that. I'm definatly not looking down on Star Trek, but that was a TV
show, not reality and you almost sound as if you think a "perfect" society
could actually exist outside of on paper. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 19:25:31 1998
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From: "Michael J. Shambrook" <mjs ap.net>
Subject: Re: The Future of Money
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At 09:16 PM 8/13/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi Eric,
>
>> You couldn't force people to give up anything they believe is
>> rightfully theirs. And to think of forcing someone to act that way is
>> dangerous road (i.e. communism). A non-profit human society by logic
>> is unrealistic because all human societies have been profit driven.
>
>Ok, to provide an example, look at Star Trek.. on the starships at
>least, there is no money.. people simply do their jobs and in exchange
>get what they need to survive. (eg. food, place to live, medical
>care, clothing, etc.) 
>
>> Like I was talking about communism. Marx said all military and 
>> international happenings such as all wars and feuds were only rooted
>> completely in economic confrontations. That implies a lot of this for
>> this society.
>
>Hmm.. I don't think this is true, because there would still be disputes
>over land, religion, etc. many other causes besides money.. ;)
>
>> And it wouldn't take a lot of money to start this society. It would
>> take a lot of goods. Money is only money, paper and worthless. It's
>> the value in goods that makes it valuable nothing more.
>
>That's true.. when I said this society would need money to get started,
>I meant money would be needed for the supplies, ie. goods, like you
>mentioned.. and it would most likely only work for a space colony
>or something like that, because most people who are used to a
>capitalist society would resist this new type of society, for exactly
>the reasons you stated. :)
>
>ttyl
>-Steve
>-- 
>     darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616    
>   DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net
>Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion
>
>Steve and others interested in this topic.  There is a forthcoming book by
Bernard Lietaer entitled "The Future of Money".  A draft of the first part
is available at his website.  Sorry, I don't have the URL but it should be
easy to locate through Phoenix Gate and/or any good search engine.
>
Lietaer began the work that led to what is now the new currency for Europe,
i.e the Euro.  He is now on a research fellowship through UC Berkeley to
write his book.  He has some very surprising and stimulating ideas.  The
book will include a section on the future of energy.

Mark Berlin  (I am leaving on vacation so please direct comments to others
including Lietaer).

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 19:25:47 1998
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On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 SciBorg8 aol.com wrote:

> Sure I love Star Trek and I believe a society "like" that could be created.
> Also remember Gene Roddenberry was a devote aethist. The Star Trek world
> reflect this. It makes you wonder what imposed all of those selfless actions
> in the Star Trek world. And if everyone thought the same way what kind of a
> world is that. I'm definatly not looking down on Star Trek, but that was a TV
> show, not reality and you almost sound as if you think a "perfect" society
> could actually exist outside of on paper. 
> 

What about the polynesians , or the american indians - they had personal
possessions like beads and clothes but besides that everything was
communal , right? Was that "communism"? 

Jim  Ostrowski

> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 19:39:42 1998
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> and you almost sound as if you think a "perfect" society
> could actually exist outside of on paper.

Well, I don't think any society could ever be "perfect", but I think
one that is a lot better than ours could be created.. Also, I'm not
sure what religion or athiesm has to do with a non-money based society,
because I don't believe either is required for a society like this to
work.. a person's religious beliefs, or lack thereof, should be their
own business and not that of society.. 

As for everyone thinking the same way.. if that was the case, then
nothing would ever get done. no new inventions, no creativity, etc.
In the case of religion however, I'm not sure what effect that would
have...

ttyl
-Steve
-- 
     darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616    
   DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net
Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 19:41:29 1998
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> What about the polynesians , or the american indians - they had
> personal possessions like beads and clothes but besides that
> everything was communal , right? Was that "communism"?

Hi Jim,

Would you consider the society on Star Trek (on the starships at least,
there is money still in use in other places, such as Earth) to be
"communist"? "Starfleet" owns the ships, and in exchange for running
them and conducting research and wharever else the ships do, the crews
get living space, free food, medial care, clothing, whatever they need.

eg. do starfleet officers get paid? They still have personal items,
but everything else is just "rented".. and they "pay" by doing work
for their commanding officers. (eg. starfleet)

Sorry for all the Star Trek analogies, but it's one of the best ways
I can think of to explain my ideas. ;)

ttyl
-Steve
-- 
     darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616    
   DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net
Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 20:29:14 1998
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On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Steve wrote:

> > What about the polynesians , or the american indians - they had
> > personal possessions like beads and clothes but besides that
> > everything was communal , right? Was that "communism"?
> 
> Hi Jim,
> 
> Would you consider the society on Star Trek (on the starships at least,
> there is money still in use in other places, such as Earth) to be
> "communist"?

However it is suposed to work on Star Trek I am rather clueless since I
haven't watched it since the Kirk-Spock days. (Gives you an idea how
elderly I am right?) But what Ive heard about it there don't seem to
be any families in the sense of mother father child and that makes Star
Trek as a societal model rather vacuous. 

But the american indians and the polynesians were families and men and
women seemed to have well defined roles (jobs) . I don't think there was a
real equivalent of money though at least not as we know it . Perhaps the
best or most skilled buffalo hunters  got to keep trophies like claws and 
teeth , things like that for the individual adornement , but no indian or 
polynesians became opulent in any way to the effect that you had wealth
and poverty like you have now.


 "Starfleet" owns the ships, and in exchange for running
> them and conducting research and wharever else the ships do, the crews
> get living space, free food, medial care, clothing, whatever they need.


If you enter "Starfleet" into the picture then that would be a Navy
(military) system . Or that could also be a merchant marine 
completely profit motivated - Either one seems somewhat far from an ideal
system or unlike anything we already have.


> 
> eg. do starfleet officers get paid? They still have personal items,
> but everything else is just "rented".. and they "pay" by doing work
> for their commanding officers. (eg. starfleet)
> 


That's just it ..."commanding officers" ? ! I don't want any officers
commanding me around , thank you.

> Sorry for all the Star Trek analogies, but it's one of the best ways
> I can think of to explain my ideas. ;)

Well if your ideas include rounding up everyone into some kind of
heirarchal structure where everyone has a "commander" (someone of higher
rank) telling them what to do I think thats the general structure of
society already.

It works like this:

You are at the bottom. Next above you is your "supervisor" . Above him is
the "manager" , then the Company president , then the corporate president
of the bank that the company President borrowed the money (capital) from
to make the business competitive.

Above the bank president is the regional governor of the Federal Reserve
District you are in . On top of all that heap is Alan Greenspan , chairman
of the Federal Reserve (owners of the United States Governmant) System.

I repeat - you are at the bottom.

I don't know how Star Trek fits into this picture except as a palliative
diversion to keep one's mind off of reality. 

Jim Ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 20:31:56 1998
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From: SciBorg8 aol.com
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Technically yes. Marx's Communist Manefesto is very peaceful. It talks about a
perfect society completely communal. He thought the first counrties to abopt
communism would be the U.S. and Britan. Look at how his "perfect" society was
put into practice in the real world. There was also Plato's perfect society.
My point is that it looks so great in theory but a lot of the time when put
into practice the human element comes into play and in the case of the USSR
many millions of people are killed (i.e. Stalin's Armenian Holocaust, 20
million dead). 

The reason why it seems like I'm tying so many things to a standard value
goods society is because to institute a system like what you are talking would
take a refirmation like none we've ever seen. And to do so might take a strong
hand, which 
usually goes to far. 

And as far as Star Trek. Starfleet is a military branch just like the Navy,
Army, etc... The crew doesn't get paid. And they do not use money on Earth.
They have said  many times that The Federation abandoned money and only seeks
to better themselves. That sounds incredible I agree. But we have to remember
Star Trek is a televison show and I love it too. But I don't think that Star
Trek per say could ever be created unless the entire human race we all
scienctist or something to that effect. 

Paper looks great but that's all it is, paper.

Eric

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I typed that last e-mail really fast so the spelling is really bad. Sorry

Eric

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 20:42:19 1998
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:36:46 -0400
From: Steve <darklord darknet.net>
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Hi Jim,

> However it is suposed to work on Star Trek I am rather clueless since > I haven't watched it since the Kirk-Spock days. (Gives you an idea how
> elderly I am right?) But what Ive heard about it there don't seem to
> be any families in the sense of mother father child and that makes 
> Star Trek as a societal model rather vacuous.

Well, in the newer series, there are families.. the old Enterprise
was basically a war ship, and the new one is (was.. it was destroyed)
basically a science and exploration ship..

> If you enter "Starfleet" into the picture then that would be a Navy
> (military) system . Or that could also be a merchant marine
> completely profit motivated - Either one seems somewhat far from an 
> ideal system or unlike anything we already have.

I simply meant that someone gives you a job, and in exchange for
doing the job, you get all the things you need to live comfortably and
skip currency altogether..

Anyway, I realize Star Trek is just a TV show, and they are military,
but the idea of their society is one that I admire and wouldn't mind
living in.. except for the part about taking orders!

And, one of the biggest limiting factors is human nature.. which is
why I suggested this as an ideal society for a small colony, instead
of trying to convert a country or the whole planet to this system..

ttyl
-Steve
-- 
     darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616    
   DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net
Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 20:50:45 1998
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: incandescent W
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References: <3.0.5.32.19980813210331.007ff620 world.std.com>
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At 10:38 PM 8/13/98 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>At 09:03 PM 8/13/98 -0400, you wrote on Vortex:
>
>>   Did he actually state that which you purport he said?
>>   Did you have a quote? 
>>     or were you just making this up?
>
>Aren't you familiar with Meyers' claim of "hyper-efficient" electrolysis?
>If not, I suggest you read about it.  I think it was covered in a past
>issue of IE.
>

   His writings do not indicate this in my reading of them.
  Do you have a reference?  or not?


>Answering your questions above directly:
>
>Yes, he does claim anomalous excess H2 & O2 production.
>No, I don't have a quote from him.
>No, I'm not making this up.

   Where is the reference to HIS writings, Mr. Little?
Please share with vortex and me exactly where your claim
of his writings states what you say. 
Hopefully you have a basis for your claim. Thanks.

   Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 21:06:09 1998
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From: SciBorg8 aol.com
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The fact that the Star Trek world is an amazing world and is something that I
admire is something we can agree on for sure.

Erix

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 13 21:19:30 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: incandescent W
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 04:13:56 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:42:42 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
[snip]
>   Where is the reference to HIS writings, Mr. Little?
>Please share with vortex and me exactly where your claim
>of his writings states what you say. 
>Hopefully you have a basis for your claim. Thanks.
>
>   Mitchell Swartz
>
Hi,

I once spent money on Meyer's offerings ($100.-). As a consequence I
have a pile of paper. To quote from 
"The Birth of New Technology Water Fuel Cell Technical Brief" :-

"The Voltage Intensifier Circuit takes advantage of the "Electron
Bounce Phenomenon" to trigger Hydrogen Fracturing Process without amp
influxing."

As you can see, the language is a bit over the top IMO, and makes it
hard to understand what is really going on. However I take it that
"without amp influxing" means that he used less current to achieve his
ends than Faraday's Law would deem necessary.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 14 01:46:12 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: thermodynamics problem 
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May I suggest, that just because you use an ideal setup (gas, pistons, 
etc) it is not a reversible process. The increase in entropy of your gas 
on free expansion will account for your energy loss.
Remi.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 14 03:57:25 1998
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On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 SciBorg8 aol.com wrote:

> The fact that the Star Trek world is an amazing world and is something that I
> admire is something we can agree on for sure.

Sorry - Hollywood sleep-inducing dream world to me having nothing to do
with any kind of real science that I have ever heard of. I have watched
segments of a few episodes just for laughs - Like where that Gordy
character walks around wearing those stupid looking metallic blindfold all
the time. 

He looks absolutely ridiculous wearing that thing and trying to
simultaneously look and act as if he is serious.

Jim Ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 14 04:00:15 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FREE ENERGY
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I remember one called Jim, who went on to, eh hem, star in other hits 
like T.J. Hooker and er, er, that's it.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 14 06:32:24 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: RE: thermd. prob.
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Remember the trick is, the path doesn't matter. Its the end points. 
Choses your path so that it is one you can calculate.:

Throlltel into same volume adiabatically, gas heats up, your energy is 
returnable. Reversable.(Yes, yes, venturi effect and all dat, ke->heat, 
but in this instance heat is returnable)

Movee into bigger volume, free expansion, entropy increase. This is 
withpout consideration of energy intogas from throttling. Gas wants to 
stay that size right? Now add your ke. Gas heats up, but 'cos wants to 
stay that size from free expansion, only part of your input ke is returnable.

Ahem.
(Please don't wind me up, I'm quite big and healthy)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 14 06:38:10 1998
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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:39:32 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: RE: thermodynamics problem 
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At 09:39 8/14/98 +0100, Remi Cornwall wrote:

>May I suggest, that just because you use an ideal setup (gas, pistons, 
>etc) it is not a reversible process. The increase in entropy of your gas 
>on free expansion will account for your energy loss.

This issue is certainly associated with my problem, Remi.  Consider Joule's
original experiment again: two vessels, one evacuated, the other
pressurized with an ideal gas, connected by a short pipe with a valve in
it.  The whole mess is lowered into a sensitive calorimeter and, after
everything is perfectly equilibrated, the valve is opened.  No heat is
exchanged between the system and the calorimeter and the gas remains at its
original temperature.  

Now consider the process of restoring the system to its original condition.  
A shaft conveys mechanical power into the calorimeter to drive a small
ideal pump located between the two vessels.  There is no question (in my
mind at least) that work will have to be done to pump the gas out of one
vessel into the other.  What Joule's result tells us, I think, is that ALL
of that work will be dissipated as heat so that the calorimeter
(integrating, of course) will record heat output energy precisely equal to
mechanical input energy.  The result is that we must conclude that the
total energy of the system is the same in either condition.

Now how does all this fit with your entropy argument?  Surely the initial
condition of Joule's apparatus has lower entropy than the final.  Since the
temperature of the system doesn't change during the process, the quantity
TdS is not zero.  For a reversible process TdS = dQ, the heat transferred
to the system (which we know to be zero in Joule's experiment).  But this
process is not reversible.  At this point, the most readable of the my
thermo books introduces a quantity called "lost work (LW)".  For an
irreversible process TdS = dQ + dLW.  So there you have it:  in Joule's
experiment, dQ is zero and all the TdS energy goes to "lost work".

I don't mind telling you that all this is solidifying my conviction that
formal thermodynamics was invented by chemists to confuse physicists about
Conservation of Energy....<g>



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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At 04:13 8/14/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>To quote from 
>"The Birth of New Technology Water Fuel Cell Technical Brief" :-
>
>"The Voltage Intensifier Circuit takes advantage of the "Electron
>Bounce Phenomenon" to trigger Hydrogen Fracturing Process without amp
>influxing."

Thanks, Robin.  You beat me to it.  I was waiting for Hal to come in and
produce the Meyers file from his incredible library.

Scott


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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:42:13 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: thermodynamics problem 
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Be with you a bit later gotta get some work done before my boss comes 
back from hols. looking at some c code with 7 levels of nesting, 
punctuated badly.

My boss is quite sexy 9she's a woman right) I fantasize about her giving 
me the cane for being naughty. Heh, heh, heh, dribble, dribble,
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 14 07:50:04 1998
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Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:47:38 -0700
From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:48:25 -0700
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Thinking that you guys might find this funny, too :)

*** Forwarded message, originally written by L Rogers on 14-Aug-98 ***


Chuck Davis wrote:

> >>  Who will bet $5 that there's not a Micro$loth Linux
> >>  in the backroom, somewere?
>
> >does the fact that Microsloth uses RedHat linux in their website count?
>
>  My goodness, you mean to say that they don't even use NT???

pretty damn funny if you ask me.


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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:57:14 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Meyer, not Meyers / Clarke not Asimov
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To: Vortex

The man's name was Meyer, not Meyers. And yes, he did claim he had a massive
over-unity effect which produced far more energy in free H2 and O2 gas than
the electricity need to drive the process. He claimed he could move a car with
the excess energy. If he could have done that, and demonstrated it, it would
have proved his claim beyond any doubt, because the battery on the car would
not have held enough energy to move the car. Meyer defrauded hundreds of
people with these claims. He ruined many lives, including his own. His life
was a tragic farce. If by some remote chance his claims are true, then his
life was a grotesque, horrible tragic farce. His fate should serve as a
warning to the cold fusion scientists and others who have legitimate excess
energy claims: If you do not publish, demonstrate, and market your technology,
you will die in ignominy and take your secrets to the grave. A scientist who
refuses to reveal his secrets is either a fraud or tantamount to a fraud. The
difference is immaterial. Either way he deserves to die in disgrace.

Scott Little wrote:

     Wasn't Meyers the one that claimed an electrolysis process that produced
     more than the expected amount of H2 and O2 from a given electrical
     current through the cell?  If so, then that would qualify as magic under
     the Asimov definition.

I believe that should be Clarke, not Asimov. See Clarke's third law: Any
sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. That's from
his masterpiece "Profiles of the Future," 1963. I have been thinking about
reviewing "Profiles" for I.E. but I do not feel up to it. I feel like a music
critic setting out to review the first performance of Beethoven's Ninth
Symphony. What am I supposed to write? "Awesome!"

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 14 08:15:12 1998
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Subject: Stan Meyer
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(thanks, Jed, for straightening me out on Meyer and Clarke)

The quote Robin found is from a newletter (Issue #4) published by Meyer's
company, Water Fuel Cell.  The article was actually written by Marcia
Thompson, editor of the Grove City Record, but the content is certain to
reflect Meyer's own words:

"The significance of the voltage is that it is a potential energy source,
not consumed energy.  The most significant point is that the influence of
voltage has a phenomenal effect on the splitting of the water molecule and
does it in a controlled state.  Voltage from the Electrical Polarization
Generator separates the water molecule economically by not consuming power."

>From Issue #9 we read a passage presumable copied from one of Meyer's patents:

"Electrical Polarization Process switches off the co-valent bonding of the
water molecule, increasing voltage intensity without amp flow energy
charges the liberated combustible gases from water..."

>From Issue 11A-Rv (copywrited by Stanley A. Meyer):

"At even higher voltages, and at the resonant frequency of the water
molecule, the energy aperture is opened and tremendous amounts of energy
can be released in a controlled state.  This unique approach does not
consume large amounts of energy since voltage is not consumed in an
electronic circuit."

etc.

There is copious and clear evidence that Meyer claimed to dissociate water
into hydrogen and oxygen with less electrical energy than the chemical
energy of the resulting gases.

If such a process were actually possible, it might be occurring in the
Incandescent W cell and thus it would be erroneous to simply calculate the
H2 & O2 production rate from the current flowing thru the cell.  That's why
I intend to measure the gas evolution rate. 



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 14 08:26:50 1998
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From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:50:58 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: thermodynamics problem
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Let me try Scott's thermodynamics problem again.

The 1 liter displacement against 2 atm gas in the cylinder takes 2 liter
atm of work from an outside source. The 2 liter volume increase at 1 atm of
the reservoir does 2 liter atm of work on an outside source. I gave a
couple of examples of the latter outside sources in my first post. The
conclusion, which I did not emphasize earlier, because I thought it was
obvious, is that no net work is done on the gas system. Zero work.
Therefore, by conservation of energy (1st law of thermodynamics) the total
internal energy of gas in the system does not change. Now, for an ideal
gas, internal energy E is just NCvT, where N = number of moles, Cv =
specific heat at constant volume and T = absolute temperature. If the gases
were at the same temperature before the displacement (Scott did not specify
different temperatures, and we have all assumed that they are the same at
the start), and since the number of moles of gas in the system does not
change, and since E does not change, then it follows that the final
temperature is the same as the first.

There is no 202.65 joules unaccounted for.

If instead of the cylinder piston having vacuum on its external face, as I
implicitely assumed above, but has the 1 atm of the reservoir instead, as
proposed by Horace Heffner, then the net work done by an outside source on
the 1 liter volume with a pressure DIFFERENCE now of 1 atm is 1 liter atm.
The reservoir volume now grows by a net of 1 liter, and it is still at 1
atm, so 1 liter atm of work is done on an outside source. Thus, no net work
is done on the gas system, as above.

During the dynamic phase, the gas expanding through the orfice is cooled
and fast moving. Some of its internal energy, manifest by its reduced
temperature, has been converted into directed kinetic energy of the jet.
However, after all has settled to a new steady state, the directed kinetic
energy has been dissipated and the heat has brought the gas temperature
back up to its initial value. The classic example of this behavior is the
following. Let a quantity of gas be contained in a fixed (no movable
pistons) container. Connect this to a second fixed container with gas at a
different pressure, but the same temperature, by an orifice and let the two
come into equilibrium. Clearly, with no moveable walls, no work is done on
or by the gas on external devices. Therefore, the internal energy of the
gas must remain constant. After all the dynamic effects have disappeared,
an ideal gas is at the initial temperature. I have just described the Joule
experiment. Real gases that are close to ideal, such as He at room
temperature, come very close to this behavior. However, in real gases Cv is
not a constant, especially near liquefaction, and the final T differs from
the initial T. It can be either higher or lower, depending on the behavior
of Cv.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:40:39 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: Re: Meyer, not Meyers / Clarke not Asimov
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> critic setting out to review the first performance of Beethoven's Ninth
> Symphony. What am I supposed to write? "Awesome!"
> 
> - Jed

Redeemed! Late string quartets, sonatas by any chance?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 14 08:52:19 1998
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Vo,

Its a problem with the photoelectric effect and the quantum hypothesis 
which fell from it.

Field like, wave like, particle like. That's the em spectrum.

To break up molecules, qm tells you that you have to use energetic light, 
uv and above. *It's the frequeny not the intensity* 

What then of the field effect? (ie the low end of the spectrum). A 
classical effect.

This is how my intuition is unfolding on this one. Where does the excess 
energy come from, don't know. One would have to show somehow that a 
conservative field can be violated.

Still guessing on this one as to a mechanism,
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 14 08:58:08 1998
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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:47:52 -0400
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Subject: Re: Meyer, not Meyers / Clarke not Asimov
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  At 10:57 AM 8/14/98 -0400, Jedu wrote:
>The man's name was Meyer, not Meyers. And yes, he did claim he had a massive
>over-unity effect which produced far more energy in free H2 and O2 gas than
>the electricity need to drive the process. He claimed he could move a car
with
>the excess energy. If he could have done that, and demonstrated it, it would
>have proved his claim beyond any doubt, because the battery on the car would
>not have held enough energy to move the car. Meyer defrauded hundreds of
>people with these claims. He ruined many lives, including his own. His life
>was a tragic farce. If by some remote chance his claims are true, then his
>life was a grotesque, horrible tragic farce. His fate should serve as a
>warning to the cold fusion scientists and others who have legitimate excess
>energy claims: If you do not publish, demonstrate, and market your
technology,
>you will die in ignominy and take your secrets to the grave. A scientist who
>refuses to reveal his secrets is either a fraud or tantamount to a fraud. The
>difference is immaterial. Either way he deserves to die in disgrace.


   Thanks for the name correction.

   Nonetheless, his denial of an interview to you, Jed, does not permit,
but may explain, such vicious attacks as you show.

   Suggest you stick to the science on vortex.




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 14 09:31:39 1998
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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:32:05 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Inc W waveforms
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Take a look at

http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/waveform.html

to see what the current and voltage for an operating incandescent W cell
looks like.

Ed Wall, you were right to ask me how I was going to measure the input
power.  Now I'm wondering the same thing!...<g>

Seriously, I think either our digital scope or the Clarke-Hess 2330 will be
able to do a decent job of it.  We shall see.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 14 09:35:40 1998
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 At 11:32 AM 8/14/98 -0500, Scott wrote:
>Take a look at
>
>http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/waveform.html
>
>to see what the current and voltage for an operating incandescent W cell
>looks like.
>

  You might consider adding the interelectrode separation distance.


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Subject: Re: Meyer, not Meyers / Clarke not Asimo
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To: Vortex

Mitchell Swartz writes:

     Nonetheless, his [Meyer's] denial of an interview to you, Jed, does not
     permit, but may explain, such vicious attacks as you show.

Meyer did not deny an interview with me. I never tried to contact him. I do
not associate with convicted criminals and frauds. Meyer spoke with Gene
several times. Gene is more open minded about people like Meyer than I am. He
thinks Meyer may have been hiding a real discovery, but I do not. Gene was
upset when Meyer croaked; I was delighted. Rumor has it that Meyer was
assassinated by the Men in Black who surrounded his house and "spoke into
their sleeves." This supposedly happened just before Meyer received an $80
million investment. If government agents did poison him, they performed a
valuable social service and saved some idiot 80 million dollars. And they used
a remarkable new form of poison that causes cerebral hemorrhage.

The rest of this sentence: "does not permit, but may explain . . ." makes no
grammatical sense to me. I do not understand it.


     Suggest you stick to the science on vortex.

I suggest you write in full, grammatical sentences with a subject, object and
verb, correct punctuation, and proper English words instead of cryptic
abbreviations, so the rest of us will understand you. The other day you wrote:

     I don't dispute that Kellogg observed this phenomenon at the anode
     (hence the "anode effect", at very acidic pH which are not usually used
     in this expts.

I am still wondering what that means.

- Jed

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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Extra gas in W cell
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To: Vortex

Scott Little writes:

     There is copious and clear evidence that Meyer claimed to dissociate
     water into hydrogen and oxygen with less electrical energy than the
     chemical energy of the resulting gases.

     If such a process were actually possible, it might be occurring in the
     Incandescent W cell and thus it would be erroneous to simply calculate
     the H2 & O2 production rate from the current flowing thru the cell.
     That's why I intend to measure the gas evolution rate.

Ah! I did not think of that. I suppose it is a possibility.

Gene talked about extra gas in the cell from conventional fracturing by heat.
This would not be o-u in any sense, but it would screw up the calorimetry. We
suspect there may be a over-unity heat effect in the tungsten cell plasma
ball. Perhaps it is some form of hot fusion rather than metal lattice cold
fusion. Perhaps it is something in between? The excess energy shows up as
heat and possibly iodizing radiation. This, in turn, causes extra gas
evolution at the cathode, both O2 and H2. The cathode does not recombine them
(burn them) because it is too hot.

Both hypotheses -- Little and Mallove's -- require a careful measurement of
the gas evolution rate.

- Jed

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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:21:57 -0400
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Subject: Meant "ionizing"
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To: Vortex

In a comical mispelling, I wrote:

    The excess energy shows up as heat and possibly iodizing radiation.

Yes, and you can buy ionized salt in your grocery store. You glow in the dark
but you don't get goiter. And this great writing will win me the Pullet
Surprise.

- Jed

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Er, Vo,

What you need is that good little woman at home who's prepared your 
dinner, listens to your boring speeches and plays with you hair and rubs 
your ears.

Oh, no, I'm sounding like the pharengi!!!
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 14 11:02:36 1998
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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:51:13 -0400
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Meyer, not Meyers / Clarke not Asimo
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At 01:10 PM 8/14/98 -0400, Jed wrote:

>     Nonetheless, his [Meyer's] denial of an interview to you, Jed, does not
>     permit, but may explain, such vicious attacks as you show.
>
>Meyer did not deny an interview with me. I never tried to contact him. I do
>not associate with convicted criminals and frauds. Meyer spoke with Gene
>several times. Gene is more open minded about people like Meyer than I am. He
>thinks Meyer may have been hiding a real discovery, but I do not. Gene was
>upset when Meyer croaked; I was delighted. Rumor has it that Meyer was
>assassinated by the Men in Black who surrounded his house and "spoke into
>their sleeves." This supposedly happened just before Meyer received an $80
>million investment. If government agents did poison him, they performed a
>valuable social service and saved some idiot 80 million dollars. And they
used
>a remarkable new form of poison that causes cerebral hemorrhage.
>

  Vicious.    

   If someone said this about you, Jed, you would,
no doubt, claim that it did not belong here.  Gene is correct on this.


 ==========================================================

>I suggest you write in full, grammatical sentences with a subject, object and
>verb, correct punctuation, and proper English words instead of cryptic
>abbreviations, so the rest of us will understand you. The other day you
wrote:
>
>     I don't dispute that Kellogg observed this phenomenon at the anode
>     (hence the "anode effect", at very acidic pH which are not usually used
>     in this expts.
>
>I am still wondering what that means.
>
>- Jed
>
>> 

   Change the comma to a ")", as in. It was mistyped.


   "I don't dispute that Kellogg observed this phenomenon at the anode
    (hence the "anode effect") at very acidic pH which are not usually used
     in these expts."
    
  Hope that helps.

      Mitchell Swartz


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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: thermodynamics problem 
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Scott,

Expansion of gas thru' throttle works out isothermal, but the entropy
                                                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
increases and internal energy is constant. How's that? :-
~~~~~~~~~

\7U = T.\7S - \7W thermd identity, where \7 is meant to read and look 
like delta.

Change in entropy, free expansion = RTln v2/v1
Matches work available from expansion( [Int Pdv]v1->v2 )

\7U gas = 0, \7S gas +ve
\7U whole (gas + env) = 0, \7S whole +ve

When you reverse the process, consider these steps:-

Start condition (V2, T1) -> 
Adiabatic compression (V1, T1++) -> 
Heat Conduction -> 
Start condtion (V1, T1) + waste heat.

For gas system \7U = 0 but waste heat gone to surrounds
Thus
\7U whole +ve, \7S whole +ve

Hope that helps,
Remi.

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Subject: RE: further to entropy 
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Vo,

you can increase the entropy of an isolated complicated system (ie. 
with at least two subsystems) without adding heat to it. 

Eg,
Black gas|White gas -> Grey gas (I was going to say Brown gas)

Each subsystem has a high chemical potential, but overall the internal 
energy of the system has not changed.

Bye, bye, for the weekend,
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 14 11:34:32 1998
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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:37:27 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: thermodynamics problem
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At 8:50 AM 8/13/98, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote:
>Let me try Scott's thermodynamics problem again.
>
>The 1 liter displacement against 2 atm gas in the cylinder takes 2 liter
>atm of work from an outside source. The 2 liter volume increase at 1 atm of
>the reservoir does 2 liter atm of work on an outside source. I gave a
>couple of examples of the latter outside sources in my first post. The
>conclusion, which I did not emphasize earlier, because I thought it was
>obvious, is that no net work is done on the gas system. Zero work.
>Therefore, by conservation of energy (1st law of thermodynamics) the total
>internal energy of gas in the system does not change. Now, for an ideal
>gas, internal energy E is just NCvT, where N = number of moles, Cv =
>specific heat at constant volume and T = absolute temperature. If the gases
>were at the same temperature before the displacement (Scott did not specify
>different temperatures, and we have all assumed that they are the same at
>the start), and since the number of moles of gas in the system does not
>change, and since E does not change, then it follows that the final
>temperature is the same as the first.
>
>There is no 202.65 joules unaccounted for.
>
>If instead of the cylinder piston having vacuum on its external face, as I
>implicitely assumed above, but has the 1 atm of the reservoir instead, as
>proposed by Horace Heffner, then the net work done by an outside source on
>the 1 liter volume with a pressure DIFFERENCE now of 1 atm is 1 liter atm.
>The reservoir volume now grows by a net of 1 liter,


I just discovered there was a misunderstanding and miscommunication on my
part about this, but I think the principle I was attempting to explain was
correct, and the results predicted by each of us differ for the same
conditions  See below.


>and it is still at 1
>atm, so 1 liter atm of work is done on an outside source. Thus, no net work
>is done on the gas system, as above.
>
>During the dynamic phase, the gas expanding through the orfice is cooled
>and fast moving. Some of its internal energy, manifest by its reduced
>temperature, has been converted into directed kinetic energy of the jet.
>However, after all has settled to a new steady state, the directed kinetic
>energy has been dissipated and the heat has brought the gas temperature
>back up to its initial value. The classic example of this behavior is the
>following. Let a quantity of gas be contained in a fixed (no movable
>pistons) container. Connect this to a second fixed container with gas at a
>different pressure, but the same temperature, by an orifice and let the two
>come into equilibrium. Clearly, with no moveable walls, no work is done on
>or by the gas on external devices. Therefore, the internal energy of the
>gas must remain constant. After all the dynamic effects have disappeared,
>an ideal gas is at the initial temperature. I have just described the Joule
>experiment. Real gases that are close to ideal, such as He at room
>temperature, come very close to this behavior. However, in real gases Cv is
>not a constant, especially near liquefaction, and the final T differs from
>the initial T. It can be either higher or lower, depending on the behavior
>of Cv.
>
>Michael J. Schaffer
>General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
>Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


The situation I was describing is depicted by:


  Compartment 2
 --------------------------------------------------
 |                                                |
 |         ---------------------------------      |
 |         |            -------                   |
 |         |            |                         |
 |         |            |  Piston area A1         |
 |         |            |                         |
 |         |            |   <--- F1               |
 | Orifice =            |                         |
 |         |  V1 = 1 l  | Piston                  |
 | vel. v2 |  P = 2 atm.|                         |
 | area A2 |      guage |  fixed velocity v1      |
 |         |            |                         |
 |         |            --------                  |
 |         ---------------------------------      |
 |                                                |
 |         |<---- D --->|                         |
 |                                                |
 |                                                |
 --------------------------------------------------


There is ambient pressure (1 atmosphere) on the back side of the piston.
The above is contained inside a volume called compartment 2.

In order to simplify understanding of the problem I assumed a prior initial
state where the cylinder (compartment 1) volume V1 = 2 liters  and both the
cylinder and the external compartment are at atmospheric pressure.

The gas volume of compartment 2 increases by 1 liter as the piston volume
decreases by 1 liter, thus the total gas volume remains constant.

It is my understanding of the problem, that Scott's unaccounted for work is
the work F1*D = P*A1*D = P*Vi = (1 atmos)(1 liter)(1.013x10^5
newtons/m^2)(0.001 m^3) = 101.3 n-m = 101.3 joules.  Oooooops!  I am
solving the wrong problem.  My apologies!


At 9:41 AM 8/12/98, Scott Little wrote:
[snip]
>Assuming an ideal gas, consider a 1 liter cylinder with a close-fitting
>piston.  An external agent pushes the piston down the cylinder expelling
>the gas inside through a small orifice.  During the stroke the pressure of
>the gas in the cylinder is 2 atmospheres.  The gas is expelled from the
>cylinder into the laboratory which is at one atmosphere pressure.
>
>The 1 liter of gas at 2 atmospheres inside the cylinder expands upon
>leaving the orifice to 2 liters of gas at 1 atmosphere.  Thus the P*V
>product of this gas remains the same before and after it goes thru the
>orifice.  According to Joule's experiment, the temperature of this gas does
>not change as it goes thru the orifice.
>
>Can someone please help me figure out where the work done by the external
>agent (202.65 joules in this example) ends up?

OK, the 202.65 joules is the cue I missed.  So now, (so you don't think I
am a total idiot, and also to still show a differing result) let me go back
and restate the same approach to the problem in more accurate and relevant
terms. The pressure inside the cylinder as defined by Scott is 2
amtospheres *guage*.  The "prior" state I assumed for clarity would thus
have to be the case where the cylinder volume is a bit less than 3 liters,
the pressure in both compartments at one atmosphere.

In a state change prior to the problem conditions, the gas is compressed
into 2 atmospheres guage pressure, 1 liter volume in order to achieve the
problem conditions  The external compartment pressure is thus reduced,
which is why the initial volume of the cylinder is less than 3 liters.  I
intially visuallized the problem with the atmosphere as the external
compartment, however, thus the initial cylinder volume would be 3 liters
and the ambient pressure would remain 1 atmosphere for all practical
purposes.  Note that in the ideal case, because the cyliner pressure*volume
value remains constant, this compression is isothermal and thus adiabatic,
thus the energy exerted all ends up in the form of P*V potential energy.
The temperatures remain unchanged.  In this way Scott's intial conditions
for the cylinder are achieved from the assumed prior state.

As the piston moves forward the volume of the external compartment
increases in the same amount the volume of the internal compartmment
decreases.  In the final state, the volume of the internal compartment is
zero, the volume of the external compartment is the sum of the *prior
state* volumes.  If all the processes involved are adiabatic, then the
final temperatures should remain the same as the initial temperatures, the
pressures thus the same, and Scott is missing his 202.65 joules of applied
work.

The 202.65 joules of work applied is exerted expelling the gas at the
orifice.  The gas must be accelerated from zero velocity to v2 = (A1/A2)
v1, where v1 is the cylinder velocity, v2 the gas velocity in the orifice,
A1 the piston area, A2 the orifice area.  This 202.65 joules of organized
kinetic energy ends up as heat, which is contained in the final volume of
gas.  The final gas temperature is not the same as the initial gas
temperatures, which were one and the same.  The final gas temperature is
not the same as the initial gas temperatures in either the state described
by Scott, nor the assumed prior state.  In fact, using no work, we can
*infinintely slowly* move the piston from the final state (zero cylinder
volume) back to the "assumed prior state" of cylinder volume appx 3 liters,
again adiabatically and isothermally compress back to Scott's initial
conditions, and then finish repeating the cycle, each time gaining 202.65
joules of heat.  If the piston moves at a faster rate during the power
stroke, all else the same, more work is applied as it takes more energy to
expell the gas faster, a larger force F1 is required to maintain the faster
piston velocity, and more work F1*D results per stroke.  If the piston
moves at a slower rate, less work is applied.  The final internal energy of
the gas in the final state is increased precisely by the amount of work
applied to the piston in the power stroke.  In Scott's example, this amount
is precisely the "missing" 202.65 joules of applied work.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 14 11:55:51 1998
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: thermodynamics problem
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At 7:06 PM 8/14/98, Remi Cornwall wrote:
>Scott,
>
>Expansion of gas thru' throttle works out isothermal, but the entropy
>                                                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>increases and internal energy is constant. How's that? :-


Yes the entropy increases in the process Scott laid out, but there is still
the 202 joules of work that can only be accounted for by an increase in
temperature of the gas, the internal energy does not remain constant.

The process can be put into a cycle that gains energy repeatedly, and only
gains energy during Scott's proposed state change, with that energy coming
from force applied across the piston movement distance.



>~~~~~~~~~
>
>\7U = T.\7S - \7W thermd identity, where \7 is meant to read and look
>like delta.
>
>Change in entropy, free expansion = RTln v2/v1
>Matches work available from expansion( [Int Pdv]v1->v2 )
>
>\7U gas = 0, \7S gas +ve
>\7U whole (gas + env) = 0, \7S whole +ve
>
>When you reverse the process, consider these steps:-
>
>Start condition (V2, T1) ->
>Adiabatic compression (V1, T1++) ->
>Heat Conduction ->
>Start condtion (V1, T1) + waste heat.
>
>For gas system \7U = 0 but waste heat gone to surrounds
>Thus
>\7U whole +ve, \7S whole +ve
>
>Hope that helps,
>Remi.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 14 12:17:14 1998
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From: SciBorg8 aol.com
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You don't have to like Star Trek. But don't just criticize and belittle a show
other people like. You even admitted you haven't watched very much of it, so
you have no room to talk.


Eric

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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:29:32 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
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To: Vortex

Remi Cornwall may be referring to my comments about Meyer. I'd like to make it
clear that I think the Meyer saga is hysterically funny. It is a tragic farce,
with emphasis on the latter. I have a morbid sense of humor. I feel sorry for
Meyer's relatives and the people he ripped off, but the rest  is slapstick.
There was an article in the Daily Express (U.K.) by Jane Warren, 7/28/98. I
think she takes the story seriously, which makes the article even funnier. She
reported that wonderful phrase about "talking into their sleeves." What a
hoot! The government does not give a damn about flakes like Stan Meyer. The
Men in Black never bother cold fusion scientists, or Griggs, or other people
who have genuine excess-energy machines. And they killed him by causing a
brain hemorrhage?!? How'd they do it? How come they couldn't knock off Fidel
Castro after umpteen attempts? Take that crazy story that somebody was about
to give Meyer $80 million but now the deal fell through. Consider:

1. A person or an organization with real money investigates a prospect
carefully before investing. The investor and his agents would perform due
diligence checks. It is true that large corporations sometimes steal or
squander hundreds of millions of dollars. Yesterday a large corporation
disclosed falsified accounting that created hundreds of millions in phantom
profits, in a stock manipulation scheme. The government and the DoE routinely
piss away billions, but that's a different story. These are large
organizations with built-in credibility. They have a license to steal. Meyer
did not, and nobody would give him money without carefully screening his
claims in advance, and testing his machines independently. I mean, the guy was
convicted of fraud in a court of law! Wouldn't *you* check out his claims? The
investor and his hired experts would have learned nearly all his secrets
before cutting the first check.

2. Meyer could not have kept all secrets in his head. He could not actually
take his invention to the grave. If his gadget is real, the information needed
to reproduce it still exists on his laboratory workbench. (Unless you believe
the Men In Black destroyed the prototype machines.) The investor and his
experts would go into the lab today and find out what they need to know. They
do not need Meyer. Nobody would stop them. Meyer's family would surely be
pleased to have them invest and make the estate worth something. The investors
are not going to walk away from an $80 million opportunity just because one
guy dropped dead.

Actually, if there is any truth to Meyer's claims, we are more likely to learn
about it now than when he was alive, unless his survivors are as crazy as he
was.

- Jed

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From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
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Subject: RE: thermodynamics problem
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Remi wrote:

>Expansion of gas thru' throttle works out isothermal,...

No, expansion of gas thru throttle is ADIABATIC, i.e., no heat enters the
gas from the throttle.

Gas temperature decreases, so it can't be isothermal, at least using
commonly accepted definitions.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics,  PO Box 85608,  San Diego CA 92186-5608,  USA
Telephone    Voice:   619-455-2841         Fax:   619-455-4156


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At 12:26 8/14/98 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>
>  You might consider adding the interelectrode separation distance.

Thanks, I will include that in the initial description of the experiment
soon to come.  It is presently about 1" (the vessel is about 2" ID).  The
phenomena do not seem to be very sensitive to electrode spacing.

I tried running the cell today inside our calorimeter and it is clear that
improved coupling between the Cu heat exchanger and the cell is required
(to permit operation in the "incandescent" power range without boiling the
electrolyte).  I'm going to try a "double-boiler" arrangement...i.e. a
liquid coupling media rather than air.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 14 16:34:03 1998
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Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 19:20:24 -0400
From: Steve <darklord darknet.net>
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A friend sent this to me last night.. I thought you might like it. :)

>"A chicken and an egg are lying in bed. The chicken is smoking a
>cigarette with a satisfied smile on it's face and the egg is frowning
>and looking a bit pissed off. The egg mutters, to no-one in particular,
>"Well, I guess we answered THAT question!"

hehehe..

ttyl
-Steve
-- 
     darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616    
   DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net
Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 14 18:26:54 1998
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: The Classical Wave Equation and Schrodinger's Equation
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 19:17:46 -0600
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An exercise to see if the Hydrogen Electron
is an oscillating String-Circle, and the Classical "Bohr Orbits" are the
result of energy induced changes in the oscillations,thus Energy/Radius of
the electron in Simple Harmonic Motion (SHM).

For the Electron: dRe = kq^2/dE, The "Ground State" orbit Rg,(5.29E-11
meters)= Re/Rg = Alpha^2,

The "Ground State" orbit energy Eg,(27.2 ev) = Eg/Ee = Alpha^2.

The Classical Wave Equation, d^2(Psi)/dx^2 =
- [4(pi)^2/lambda^2]*(Psi).
(Psi)= A sin 2(pi)x/lambda.

Out of this comes the Schrodinger Equation (in
one plane):

[d^2(Psi)/dx^2]+ [8(pi)^2m/h^2]*(E+q^2/R)*(Psi)
= 0.

IOW, the electron continually exchanges energy
with the proton or deuteron at a frequency, f :
f = E/h.  Sort of like the "hairspring" in a watch.

Okay, Hal, get out your sword.   :-)

Regards,    Frederick


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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Meant "ionizing"
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 02:57:58 GMT
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On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:21:57 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
[snip]
>but you don't get goiter. And this great writing will win me the Pullet
>Surprise.

I take it this is a free frozen chicken? ;)
>
>- Jed

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Friday, August 14, 1998 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: Meant "ionizing"

Robin wrote:


>On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:21:57 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>[snip]
>>but you don't get goiter. And this great writing will win me the Pullet
>>Surprise.
>
>I take it this is a free frozen chicken? ;)

Chicken Little,perhaps?  :-)

Do I dare do this?

FJS
>>
>>- Jed
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 14 21:49:23 1998
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From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Off topic - Star Trek (was FREE ENERGY)
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On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 SciBorg8 aol.com wrote:

> You don't have to like Star Trek. But don't just criticize and belittle a show
> other people like.

I criticize a lot of things other people like , including money , which
was where this thread digressed to the first time with Steve's commentary 
on how he would like to see a society that did without it somehow. 

The point I was trying to make was that as far as some kind of ideal goes
the system depicted on Star Trek appears to be a military Heirarchy.
Such a system doesn't need money because the captain need not offer
something of value to a subordinate in order to get him/her to perform a
service. Everyone on board whatever they call the "Ship" is an Indentured
Servant -
 

 You even admitted you haven't watched very much of it, so
> you have no room to talk.
> 


I've seen enough to recognise a slave society when one is depicted.
Particulrly where it is given some high tech patina in order to seem
attractive to impressionable young people.

And as far as talking about it goes , hey ... I didn't bring it up,
and If I don't watch it because I think it stinks (for the above reason)
I realize it may be a minority opinion , but I have the right to express
my views (for who knows how long).

Star Trek sucks. The whole crew sucks and the captain sucks.

JIM OSTROWSKI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 15 07:34:12 1998
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Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> Star Trek sucks. The whole crew sucks and the captain sucks.

Sigh...  Does this mean I won't see you at the next Trekie convention,
Jim?

Frank Stenger

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On Sat, 15 Aug 1998, Francis J. Stenger wrote:

> Jim Ostrowski wrote:
> 
> > Star Trek sucks. The whole crew sucks and the captain sucks.
> 
> Sigh...  Does this mean I won't see you at the next Trekie convention,
> Jim?

Well , like they say never say never. I suppose if I am ever REALLY BORED
I might show up to watch all the gordy wannabees bump into things while
they are wearing their metallic blindfolds.

Jim

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 15 18:39:18 1998
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Vortex-

Either the list is very quiet today (1 message posted by Frank S. Re
Star Trek ) or I have been unsubscribed somehow.

Maybe Bill B is a Star Trek Fan and is getting back at me?

Anybody copy this?

Jim Ostrowski


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Hmm.. got the copy of test message from Vortex-l (below) but no comebacks
from subscibers yet. What's up? 

Jim O

On Sat, 15 Aug 1998, Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> 
> Vortex-
> 
> Either the list is very quiet today (1 message posted by Frank S. Re
> Star Trek ) or I have been unsubscribed somehow.
> 
> Maybe Bill B is a Star Trek Fan and is getting back at me?
> 
> Anybody copy this?
> 
> Jim Ostrowski
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 15 18:56:55 1998
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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Jim,
I got your test message and one other item today.  Quiet day!

Bob Briggs

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At 06:53 PM 8/15/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Hmm.. got the copy of test message from Vortex-l (below) but no comebacks
>from subscibers yet. What's up? 
>
>Jim O
>
>On Sat, 15 Aug 1998, Jim Ostrowski wrote:
>
>> 
>> Vortex-
>> 
>> Either the list is very quiet today (1 message posted by Frank S. Re
>> Star Trek ) or I have been unsubscribed somehow.
>> 
>> Maybe Bill B is a Star Trek Fan and is getting back at me?
>> 
>> Anybody copy this?
>> 
>> Jim Ostrowski
>> 
>> 
>> 
I just checked the mail now; it's a week end on a beautiful summer day Jim.

Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 15 19:18:54 1998
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From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Test - Thanks 4 reply 
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On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 BriggsRO aol.com wrote:

> Jim,
> I got your test message and one other item today.  Quiet day!
> 
> Bob Briggs
> 
> 

Gotcha Bob .. Thank you :-) !

Jim O.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 15 19:21:40 1998
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Subject: Re: Test - reply requested
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On Sat, 15 Aug 1998, Edwin Strojny wrote:

> >> 
> I just checked the mail now; it's a week end on a beautiful summer day Jim.
> 
> Ed

Yeah - Thank you Ed ... I was out for a while in it out here in the
Mojave. Like you said, nice. JO


> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 15 20:25:29 1998
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From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
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On Sat, 15 Aug 1998, Steve Ekwall wrote:

I wrote:

(snip)
> 
> Anybody copy this?
> 
> Jim Ostrowski
> 
> 
> -------------------
> hi jim,   got it!! but this is off-vortex-list (you did say "Anybody"!:)
> noticed you already recieved other "10-4's!"  
> hey it's the week-end, i/we had to mow the yard???
> 
> l8tr g8tr
> -=se=-
> denver co
> ekwall2 diac.com
> 


Hi Steve and thanks .

Mow yard, huh? Here in Barstow CA I have desert dust and some nice
blooming wildflower bushes - nothing mowable. 

Last night was one of the biggest lightning storms I've ever seen .
There were about 45 flashes per minute. All kinds too cloud-earth 
cloud - cloud overhead and all around.  

Do all lighning strokes result in thunder, supposedly ?

Because at the height of the storm there was very little thunder , even
from the overhead arcs.

I read once where Tesla would become entranced seemingly , by electrical
storms in Colo. Springs. Is there a monument or something where his lab
used to be . Steve?

anyway I appreciate the "paranoia" relief. You never can tell about those
MIBs monitoring this listserve . They know a lot of us here are
"subversive elements" ;^)  (chuckle)

Jim O.
 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 15 21:53:26 1998
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All posts came thru just fine, Jim.  No, we're not really dead! 

Frank



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Path: nntp.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news.he.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!not-for-mail
From: Tom Droege <droege fnal.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: What I am Doing
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:52:08 -0700
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Xref: nntp.earthlink.net sci.physics.fusion:22933

As many of you know, I have long since given up on "Cold Fusion".  I 
think that everything can be explained by bad calorimetry, and the  
selection of "positive" runs while neglecting "negative" runs.  

I have found something even more fun.  I am trying to save you from 
earth colliding asteroids.  I have been working at it for the last four 
years.  We are slowly making progress.  Read about us in the February 
1998 Sky and Telescope, or in this week's Crains Chicago Business.

We have a home page at:

http://www.tass-survey.org

Tom Droege

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On Sat, 15 Aug 1998, Jim Ostrowski wrote:
Hi Steve and thanks .
-snip- [1]
Do all lighning strokes result in thunder, supposedly ?
----------------
(+=earth:) -mib's :)
Absolutely, Positively, Mr Jones ... (err, Jim O!:)
Negatively too!!... The crashing burst of the + to - makes for Great
Fireworks -eh!??  While that crack (almost instantly separating the 
aether/air thunders a might -eh?  - everytime! (*cool* for 4th of July
here in the USA). Some are duds(ier)(sp?) than others (sigh) but, all are
worth a look, fun observation stuff!!   (must be the mile-hi climate
here).. <grin>
---------
-snip- Jim O. wrote:
I read once where Tesla would become entranced seemingly , by electrical
storms in Colo. Springs. Is there a monument or something where his lab
used to be . Steve?

Yes, monument, lab, And Museum.  Just outside our Cheyenne Mountain
(USAF-DOD) East Entrance. THEY are HIGHER up THE HILL.
-----------
-snip- Jim O. wrote:
anyway I appreciate the "paranoia" relief. You never can tell about those
MIBs monitoring this listserve . They know a lot of us here are
"subversive elements" ;^)  (chuckle)

Jim O.
-----------
~weird~, every time I type 'Cheyenne Mountain' or 'DOD' My "pine" editor
starts flashing busy- busy /busy with a "| / - \ - |" spinning around at
the bottom and I can no longer 'edit', sorry for any misspellings. 
~odd too~ the words DOD and MIBs are not in current spell check AGAIN!*

best to you & yours :)
l8tr g8tr
-=se=-
denver co
ekwall2 diac.com
Storm(s) is/are terrific here
God Bless America :)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 16 08:58:38 1998
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Hi Scott,

You asked for coments on your strange current wave form.  If I were trying to
make precision measurements as you are, I'd find a ripple free d.c. source.
The unfiltered, rectified a.c. introduces a swarm of unknown conditions
including a question as to whether you are really getting an RMS measurement
of current and voltage.  The noise you are seeing on the wave form is
obviously voltage sensitive and with a "constantly varying d.c.",
understanding it is much more complicated.     

Not withstanding the above, your P in  and P out  plots are so clean and
consistent that I tend to believe your results.

Regards,

Bob Briggs

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 16 09:58:45 1998
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Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 11:39:15 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: thermo prob justification
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What a messy problem this turned out to be.  Ill-defined at the outset, it
produced a number of 'solutions' each with its own merit.  

The only thing I THINK is really wrong is Mike's contention that 2 liters
of gas delivered at 1 atm pressure into the 1 atm laboratory constitutes 2
liter-atm of work. Since the outgoing gas is at 1 atm and the lab is also
at 1 atm, it takes no force to deliver the gas into the lab so that work is
really zero.  My apologies, Mike, if you misunderstood the original framing
of the problem...it wasn't clear at all.

Horace constructed a second chamber around the experiment which only
confused the  experiment for me.  Here's what I originally had in mind:

            --------------------------------|---------------E
               -                            |               
              | |                           |                
              | |          V=1 liter        | /              
              | |                             -->               P=1 atm       
       F ---> | |          p=2 atm          | \               
              | |                           | turbulence     
              | |                           | region        
               -                            |               
           ---------------------------------|---------------E

The experiment starts off with the cylinder already pressurized to 2 atm
and the piston positioned so the enclosed volume is 2 liters.  The orifice
is closed.  The apparatus is immersed in a constant pressure environment at
1 atm.

Horace correctly points out that simply opening the orifice is sufficient
to allow the contained gas to expand to 2 liters at 1 atm.  No movement of
the piston is required.  THAT would be a Joule-Thompson expansion and, for
an ideal gas, no change in gas temperature would result.

Now, if the piston is pushed down the cylinder by External Agent (as the
gas exits the orifice) at such a rate that the pressure in the cylinder
remains at 2 atm until all the gas is expelled, additional work is
definitely being done on the system.  However, since  the differential
pressure across the piston is only 1 atm (2 atm - 1 atm = 1 atm), the
External Agent only does 1 liter-atm of work.  I got this wrong in my
initial framing of the problem!

But the exiting gas, as it passes the end of the outlet pipe (marked by E-E
above) still exits at virtually 1 atm pressure so no work is done on the
external environment which is also at 1 atm. 

The extra work done by External Agent HAS to end up as heat in the exiting
gas stream.  To be sure, the gas exits more vigorously when the piston is
pushed than when the orifice is simply opened.

Anyway, let me attempt to justify all this bandwidth by explaining the
reason for posing this problem in the first place.

In the first of a series of experiments to explore the effect of the ZPF on
molecular ground states, we are flowing H2 gas through a tiny cavity at a
steady rate.  The cavity assembly is sealed between two relatively large
tubes, one supplies the H2 gas and the other conveys it away after it has
flowed thru the cavity.  The supply tube is pressurized and the exit tube
is open to the atmosphere.

What temperature changes are expected in this apparatus?  Under these
conditions, is the gas itself expected to change in temperature as it
expands?   I think so...by an amount predicted by the Joule-Thompson
coefficient.  What about the flow work (pressure x flow rate) being done
"on the cavity" by the incoming stream of pressurized gas?  Where does that
power go?

Thanks a lot for your consideration of this problem.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 16 10:00:00 1998
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Subject: Battery? was Re: Scott Little's wave forms
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Why not use a Battery system with an inverter as the primary power source.
Then you have a fixed source of DC energy to measure.

That way, the waveforms can be whatever crazy things they want to be and you
can still measure the total power from up stream somewhere else.

Ross Tessien




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 16 11:17:23 1998
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Scott's waveforms and battery
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 14:13:57 -0400
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Scott asked about how to measure the energy in the waveforms and Ross
suggested using a battery as a primary source. Not a good idea, for then you
have the problem of accurately measuring the energy loss of the batteries,
which itself is a task with dozens of pitfalls.

Better to take the I and E signals and put them through simple, passive
low-pass filters until all the wrinkles are out of the waveforms and they
look sinusoidal. Then a true RMS (not just calibrated RMS)  meter will give
you reasonably accurate results. The saving grace here is that the filters
provide temporary energy storage as part of the filter action, but have no
long-term energy storage capacity. You eliminate the high frequency
components which can befuddle any kind of digital meter unless it has the
necessary bandwidth. Simple R-C networks will do the filtering. Don"t use
electrolytic capacitors. Don't use op amps inside the filter loop.

The raw waveforms give you clues as to what is happening, but the filtered
waveforms will give you energy measurements.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 16 11:44:51 1998
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I don't see why Scott would use an inverter since he is trying to approach a
d.c. source.  As I understand it he doesn't really want any waveform, he's
trying to come as close to a clean d.c. as possible so that any perterbation
is from the load, not the source.  Of course batteries are a very good source
of clean d.c.  A simple d.c.circuit doesn't get involved with RMS or any other
measurement complications and you can believe a well calibrated volt meter and
amp meter.

Bob  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 16 12:44:16 1998
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: thermo prob justification
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At 11:39 AM 8/16/98, Scott Little wrote:
[snip]
>But the exiting gas, as it passes the end of the outlet pipe (marked by E-E
>above) still exits at virtually 1 atm pressure so no work is done on the
>external environment which is also at 1 atm.
>
>The extra work done by External Agent HAS to end up as heat in the exiting
>gas stream.  To be sure, the gas exits more vigorously when the piston is
>pushed than when the orifice is simply opened.


Yes, it ends up as heat, but is *not* in the form of heat in exiting gas in
the orifice (assuming it is a perfect nozzle and the flow rate far from
supersonic).

The work done by movement of the piston results in the *extra momentum* of
the gas expelled.  This is not in the form of heat intially, but rather is
due to the mass flow rate, or average translational velocity (thus
momentum) of the gas moving through the orifice.  It is kinetic energy, not
internal energy of the gas.

If the orifice is simply opened when the cylinder is under pressure then
the average velocity of the gas exiting declines logarithmically.  We know
that under that circumstance the kinetic energy due to the mass flow
velocity *exactly balances* the temperature drop in the orifice, thus in
the final state there is no exccess heat.  However, when the piston moves
forward at a constant rate, the pressure is maintained, and the gas moves
at a constant velocity, i.e. a constant mass flow rate and constant average
velocity.  The difference between the kinetic energy summed over the
logarthimically declining flow rate curve and a flat linear curve is where
the excess energy hides.  Note that if the mass flow rate is dm/dt and the
orifice velocity of the gas is u, work is being done at the rate 1/2
(dm/dt) u^2.  If u remains constant then more kinetic energy is expended in
the gas than if u declines.

The gas kinetic energy reverts to internal energy (heat) later due to
radomization of the molecular motion.


>
>What temperature changes are expected in this apparatus?  Under these
>conditions, is the gas itself expected to change in temperature as it
>expands?   I think so...by an amount predicted by the Joule-Thompson
>coefficient.  What about the flow work (pressure x flow rate) being done
>"on the cavity" by the incoming stream of pressurized gas?  Where does that
>power go?


It goes into the kinetic energy of the gas due to maintaining its flow rate
and velocity at a constant level.  What you have here is not a just a
thermodynamics problem, but a fluid dynamics problem.  As you say, it is
not simple, at least in the general case.  In your specific case given
earlier the correct answer is easily understood in the  framework of an
assumed prior state, or in the framework of repeated cycles, and given the
conservation of energy.  In the general and realistic case, depending on
orifice geometry etc., this can be a very complicated problem, requiring
computer modelling.  The situation also gets more complicated at higher
velocities due corrections based on mach number.  I would suggest obtaining
a fluid dynamics book for the many details.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 16 14:46:33 1998
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Puthoff aol.com wrote:

This is an older message, but my mail server glitched. Forgive the
lengthy delay in this reply:
 
> Agreed.  But with the Lorentz-invariant ZPE, motion thru it even approaching c
> supposedly is undetectable because all the Doppler shifts cancel out - no blue
> shift in front or red shift in back because (with a freq-cubed distribution)
> as specific components Doppler shift, others Doppler shift to take their
> place, hence no detectable difference.  However, if the ZPE has a high-freq
> cutoff (Planck cutoff?), then absolute motion would be detectable by detecting
> that cutoff freq in different directions.  However, if at Planck freq it will
> be a long time, if ever, that we can detect it.

I'm a bit confused as to exactly how detecting absolute motion would
allow FTL phenomena without violation of causality (and associated time
travel paradoxes). Is there a somewhat simple explanation for this? (for
someone who hasn't yet researched GR or QM fully) Or is there a
difference between absolute motion and an absolute frame of reference? 

Then again, the Lorentz-Poincaire ether _appears_ Lorentz invariant, and
supposedly preserves causality. It should be impossible to measure
absolute motion WRT the L-P ether. As Carl Sagan would have said:
"Curiouser and curiouser..."

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 16 15:11:44 1998
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Very immature

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-----Original Message-----
From: SciBorg8 aol.com <SciBorg8@aol.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, August 16, 1998 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: Off topic - Star Trek (was FREE ENERGY)

SciBorg wrote:


>Very immature
>
>

Good Grief, Too Brief!  :-)

FJS

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On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SciBorg8 aol.com <SciBorg8@aol.com>
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> Date: Sunday, August 16, 1998 4:12 PM
> Subject: Re: Off topic - Star Trek (was FREE ENERGY)
> 
> SciBorg wrote:
> 
> 
> >Very immature
> >
> >
> 
> Good Grief, Too Brief!  :-)
> 
> FJS
> 
> 

Yes, please continue..

You were saying?

Jim Ostrowski

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-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, August 16, 1998 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: Off topic - Star Trek (was FREE ENERGY)

Jim O wrote:


>
>
>On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: SciBorg8 aol.com <SciBorg8@aol.com>
>> To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
>> Date: Sunday, August 16, 1998 4:12 PM
>> Subject: Re: Off topic - Star Trek (was FREE ENERGY)
>>
>> SciBorg wrote:
>>
>>
>> >Very immature
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Good Grief, Too Brief!  :-)
>>
>> FJS
>>
>>
>
>Yes, please continue..
>
>You were saying?

I think it would be proper to defer to Jed on this one, it should be good
for at least a 64 kilobyte editorial.   :-)

FJS
>
>Jim Ostrowski
>
>

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Subject: McGraw-Hill - Encyclopedias & Dictionaries (http://www.pbg.mcgraw-hill.com/ency
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For the technically Hungry. Too band it's not on
a CD yet. My set is over 30 and still going strong.    FJS

http://www.pbg.mcgraw-hill.com/encyclopedias.html

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[Professional Book Group] [The McGraw-Hill Companies] [Contact Us] [Book =
Catalog]=20
   =20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

McGraw-Hill Multimedia Encyclopedia of=20
Science & Technology, Release 2.0
=20

[More Info] [Screen Previews] [Ordering Info] [Order Online] [EST]=20
    "We needed it, we asked for it, we got it: The serious science =
encyclopedia in an easy-to-use design. No extraneous bells and whistles, =
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    --Library Journal=20

    "A powerful way to learn science."
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    "Scientists and enthusiasts who prized the hard copy edition will =
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    --Scientific American, November 1996=20

    All reviews of previous editions.=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Your search for a single comprehensive source of scientific information =
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single CD-ROM. Spectacular color images, superb animations, =
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printed page.=20

Combining the strengths of the award-winning McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of =
Science & Technology and the McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Scientific and =
Technical Terms, this revolutionary research and learning tool provides =
instant access to authoritative information in 81 major areas of science =
and engineering.=20

Thanks to a powerful search engine, users can spend more time working =
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articles in just seconds--with total confidence that your research is =
complete and accurate.=20


30-Day Preview Available!
Call 1-800-722-4726 to order your full copy of the=20
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If you are not satisfied, return it within 30 days for a full refund.
We now offer three simple price options -- single user, LAN user for =
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    a.. 7,100 articles written by 3,000 world-renowned scientists and =
engineers ensure absolute authority.=20
    b.. 122,000+ clear, concise definitions from the McGraw-Hill =
Dictionary of Scientific and Technical Terms, hyperlinked to the =
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    c.. Powerful filtering allows you to browse encyclopedia articles =
listed by 21 major subjects and nearly 100 subtopics -- providing fast =
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    d.. Over 1,400 high-resolution color graphics, photos, maps, charts, =
and tables enhance information quality and visual appeal.=20
    e.. More than 30 new high-quality topographic maps have been added =
to this version, with new climate data tables.=20
    f.. 66 superb animation sequences bring you the world of science in =
full motion.=20
    g.. 60 minutes of clear audio narrations accompany the animations to =
help readers understand important scientific concepts in action.=20
    h.. Keyword, Boolean, and context relevant searching ensure fast, =
flexible and thorough research -- and now you can expand your search to =
include the Internet!=20
    i.. Extensive hyperlinked cross-references let you jump to related =
articles with ease and speed.=20
    j.. Study Guides offer lists of articles in specific curriculum for =
comprehensive study.=20

Any questions? Please e-mail John Kwasek!=20


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Copyright =A9 1998 The McGraw-Hill Companies. All rights reserved. Any =
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has become=20
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<P>Your search for a single comprehensive source of scientific =
information is=20
over. <B>The McGraw-Hill Multimedia Encyclopedia of Science &amp; =
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Release 2.0</B> delivers the complete world of science in a single =
CD-ROM.=20
Spectacular color images, superb animations, crystal-clear audio =
presentations,=20
and interactive maps, charts, and tables let you explore scientific =
information=20
in ways that transcend the printed page.=20
<P>Combining the strengths of the award-winning <B><A=20
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Science &amp;=20
Technology</A></B> and the <B><A=20
href=3D"http://mcgraw-hill.inforonics.com/cgi/getarec?mgh23239"=20
target=3Doutside>McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Scientific and Technical =
Terms</A></B>,=20
this revolutionary research and learning tool provides instant access to =

authoritative information in 81 major areas of science and engineering.=20
<P>Thanks to a powerful search engine, users can spend more time working =
with=20
information and less time tracking it down. Keyword, Boolean, and=20
context-relevant searching allow you to search the <B><A=20
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articles in=20
just seconds--with total confidence that your research is complete and =
accurate.=20

<P>
<H3>30-Day Preview Available!</H3>Call <B>1-800-722-4726</B> to order =
your=20
<B>full</B> copy of the <BR><I>Multimedia Encyclopedia of Science &amp;=20
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for a=20
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<P>We now offer three simple price options -- single user, LAN user for =
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on the world's premier science and technology resource!=20
<H3><IMG alt=3DFeatures src=3D"features.gif"></H3>
<UL>
    <LI><B>7,100 articles</B> written by 3,000 world-renowned scientists =
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    <LI><B>Powerful filtering</B> allows you to browse encyclopedia =
articles=20
    listed by 21 major subjects and nearly 100 <NOBR>subtopics --</NOBR> =

    providing fast access to the information you want,.=20
    <LI><B>Over 1,400 high-resolution color graphics, photos, maps, =
charts, and=20
    tables</B> enhance information quality and visual appeal.=20
    <LI><B>More than 30 new high-quality topographic maps</B> have been =
added to=20
    this version, with new climate data tables.=20
    <LI><B>66 superb animation sequences</B> bring you the world of =
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    full motion.=20
    <LI><B>60 minutes of clear audio narrations</B> accompany the =
animations to=20
    help readers understand important scientific concepts in action.=20
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fast,=20
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<I>expand=20
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    <LI><B>Study Guides</B> offer lists of articles in specific =
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<P><BR clear=3Dall>Any questions? Please e-mail <A=20
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Message-ID: <35D785EE.7DCD keelynet.com>
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Gnorts Fred et al!

Posted once as an attachment and a URL, now again as the whole page, how
much commission do you get Fred?  The URL works fine.  Thanks.

-- 
           Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker keelynet.com
         http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
      Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
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On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 14:40:33 EDT, BriggsRO aol.com wrote:

>I don't see why Scott would use an inverter since he is trying to approach a
>d.c. source.  As I understand it he doesn't really want any waveform, he's
>trying to come as close to a clean d.c. as possible so that any perterbation
>is from the load, not the source.  Of course batteries are a very good source
>of clean d.c.  A simple d.c.circuit doesn't get involved with RMS or any other
>measurement complications and you can believe a well calibrated volt meter and
>amp meter.
>
>Bob  
I agree, but you might still need a filter between the experiment and
the measuring equipment. My choice would be to use an LC filter, as
they aren't as lossy as RC filters, and I suspect that there may not
be a whole lot of OU to measure anyway, so you need to keep as much as
you can. (The filter is going to force you to use a higher voltage
than the experiment actually requires, thereby raising the power in
measurement).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
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At 11:54 AM 8/16/98 EDT, BriggsRO aol.com wrote:

>You asked for coments on your strange current wave form.  If I were trying to
>make precision measurements as you are, I'd find a ripple free d.c. source.

An interesting proposal.  Unfortunately I don't have a regulated DC supply
in this power/voltage range but I will try some big filter caps.  It'll be
interesting to see if that changes the nature of the phenomenon.

>Not withstanding the above, your P in  and P out  plots are so clean and
>consistent that I tend to believe your results.

Ha! I wish that "clean" was all it took.  Thanks anyway for the vote of
confidence.  

There may be a curious situation that arises in this experiment.  If there
are concerns about the accuracy of the input power measurement AND the heat
output power ends up matching the measured input power pretty closely,
which of the following would you choose?

1.  The input power measurement is correct and the experiment is not o-u.

2.  The input power is underestimated and the experiment is just
sufficiently o-u to make up the difference.

Scott

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Subject: Re: Scott's waveforms and battery
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At 02:13 PM 8/16/98 -0400, Mike Carrell wrote:

>Better to take the I and E signals and put them through simple, passive
>low-pass filters until all the wrinkles are out of the waveforms and they
>look sinusoidal.

this thing runs on DC...how can we make that look sinusoidal?

Scott

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Subject: Re: thermo prob justification
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At 11:44 AM 8/16/98 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:

>Yes, it ends up as heat, but is *not* in the form of heat in exiting gas in
>the orifice...
<snip>
>The gas kinetic energy reverts to internal energy (heat) later due to
>radomization of the molecular motion.

So first it is not heat in the exiting gas and then later it is heat in the
exiting gas?  I wonder when the transition takes place.

>We know
>that under that circumstance the kinetic energy due to the mass flow
>velocity *exactly balances* the temperature drop in the orifice, thus in
>the final state there is no exccess heat.

What is the nature of this "temperature drop in the orifice"?  

Thanks, Horace, for trying to help me out on this!


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: RE: thermodynamics problem
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On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote:

> Remi wrote:
> 
> >Expansion of gas thru' throttle works out isothermal,...
> 
> No, expansion of gas thru throttle is ADIABATIC, i.e., no heat enters the
> gas from the throttle.
> 
Menaing in the end it amounts to he same thing.
Remi.

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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: Re: Off topic - Star Trek (was FREE ENERGY)
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> >> >Very immature

I watch Star Trek for the ladies with the big titties like Uhuru, Troi 
and the ship's doctor (used to be in LA Law). COR!!!!!
Remi.

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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: RE: thermodynamics problem
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Be with you about lunchtime or evening otherwise my boss will cane me!

On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 7:06 PM 8/14/98, Remi Cornwall wrote:
> >Scott,
> >
> >Expansion of gas thru' throttle works out isothermal, but the entropy
> >                                                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >increases and internal energy is constant. How's that? :-
> 
> 
> Yes the entropy increases in the process Scott laid out, but there is still
> the 202 joules of work that can only be accounted for by an increase in
> temperature of the gas, the internal energy does not remain constant.
> 
> The process can be put into a cycle that gains energy repeatedly, and only
> gains energy during Scott's proposed state change, with that energy coming
> from force applied across the piston movement distance.
> 
> 

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Jed,

The whole thing is very confusing - apart from the science. I don't see 
how someone can be so paranoid so as not disclose, the theory should be 
condensed and not have all the sales spleil, I want to know who has 
duplicated and just how, also what is the significance of these resonant 
frequencies.

That simple,
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 05:34:51 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scott Little's wave forms
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:27:48 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 22:55:02 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
[snip]
>There may be a curious situation that arises in this experiment.  If there
>are concerns about the accuracy of the input power measurement AND the heat
>output power ends up matching the measured input power pretty closely,
>which of the following would you choose?
>
>1.  The input power measurement is correct and the experiment is not o-u.
>
>2.  The input power is underestimated and the experiment is just
>sufficiently o-u to make up the difference.
>
>Scott
# 2 seems very unlikely, however you can make it even more unlikely,
by changing the voltage somewhat (and therewith the input power), and
see if the output follows neatly.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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Scott wrote:


>At 02:13 PM 8/16/98 -0400, Mike Carrell wrote:
>
>>Better to take the I and E signals and put them through simple, passive
>>low-pass filters until all the wrinkles are out of the waveforms and they
>>look sinusoidal.
>
>this thing runs on DC...how can we make that look sinusoidal?
>
>Scott
>
oops, I was a bit hasty. You want to remove the high frequency variations
that are difficult to measure. What you want is the energy content.
Basically that's a matter of integrating the waveforms, which you can do by
charging a battery or a capacitor. Accurately measuring the energy in a
battery is tricky. Measuring the energy in a capacitor is straightforward,
but it's capacity is limited. What you wind up doing is low-pass filtering
using a resistor and capacitor or inductor and capacitor to the point that
the high frequency energy is smoothed out, and then numerically logging the
filtered signal levels and doing numerical integration in a computer for as
long as you like.

The bottom like is that the effective sampling rate of the computer must be
at least twice as high as the highest frequency component of interest. If
you had a 100 MHz sampling scope, it could eat the waveforms raw and give
you correct answers, but it would run out of storage capacity quickly, and
you need long  term averages for the o/u measurements. So you use simple
analogue filters to short-time integrate the high frequency components and
smooth out the wiggles to point that the sampling rate of you lab
instrumentation can give accurate data.

You don't have to filter to the point of DC; there can still be an AC
component giving you gently wiggling data.

Robin's comment about loss in RC vs LC filters is irrelevant. You aren't
extracting energy from the I and E filters, you are extracting signals and
calculating energy. If you take, say, a 1 megohm resistor and hook it in
series with a 1 uf capacitor to ground, you get a time constant of 1 second
and a lot of the noise will be reduced if you measure the voltage across the
capacitor. However, the measuring instrument will have to have an input
impedance of 10 megs or so, which you will get from a common oscilloscope
probe.

A common opamp with a JFET input will work very well as buffer, it's input
impedance is in the teraohms and with the output connected to the negative
input, it is a unity gain, DC-coupled buffer. A LF347 will do nicely. My
caution about having opamps in the filter loop is a matter of the limited
bandwidth and limited signal dynamic range of some of them. If you prefilter
as I suggest here, the opamps will work fine and you can cascade several
stages to get improved filtering. In this case, the filtering function is
passive, and the opamps serve merely as buffers. You will have to calibrate
it, but that is straightforward. (Scott, if you want more specific advice,
contact me directly so we don't use vortex bandwidth for this)

Mike Carrell

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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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Scott,

#1 is obviously true within the limits of your measurement accuracy. However,
the probability of #2 can be reduced by improving your input power measurement
technique which (as we have observed) is lots easier if you have a clean d.c.
without the ripple.  As you know, when you start with complex waveforms with
frequency selective phase shifts etc. there is more room for instrument
errors.  Also, it will be easier to study the high frequency noise (or signal)
that showed during part of the cycle without having the a.c. component
superimposed on your d.c. to add confusion.

If you add capacators, you will probably want to put an inductance between
them and the rectifiers to present a high impedance to the a.c. component and
a low impedance to the d.c.

Regards,
Bob

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Subject: Re: FREE ENERGY
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At 09:16 PM 8/13/98 -0400, Steve wrote:
>Ok, to provide an example, look at Star Trek.. on the starships at
>least, there is no money.. people simply do their jobs and in exchange
>get what they need to survive. (eg. food, place to live, medical
>care, clothing, etc.) 

     Sorry you missed it.  Money exists on the Enterprise, just not in
physical form.  (Of course, over 90% of money today exists only in
electronic form.)  If you don't believe me, explain how the Ferangi can run
a casino on Deepspace 9.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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If you have a clean, constant d.c. you don't have to know anything about the
energy stored in the source.  All you need is an amp meter and a volt meter.  

Bob

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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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They did that to introduce a little sleaze and adult sophistication into 
it so that it would appeal to a mass audience not sci-fi geeks. They need 
a kind of plot consientency bible like lucas in star wars.
Remi.

On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Robert I. Eachus wrote:

> At 09:16 PM 8/13/98 -0400, Steve wrote:
> >Ok, to provide an example, look at Star Trek.. on the starships at
> >least, there is no money.. people simply do their jobs and in exchange
> >get what they need to survive. (eg. food, place to live, medical
> >care, clothing, etc.) 
> 
>      Sorry you missed it.  Money exists on the Enterprise, just not in
> physical form.  (Of course, over 90% of money today exists only in
> electronic form.)  If you don't believe me, explain how the Ferangi can run
> a casino on Deepspace 9.
> 
>                                         Robert I. Eachus
> 
> with Standard_Disclaimer;
> use  Standard_Disclaimer;
> function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 08:51:40 1998
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Subject: Re: McGraw-Hill | Multimedia Encyclopedia of Science &
  Technology (http://www.pbg.m
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At 06:26 PM 8/16/98 -0600, Fred Sparber wrote:
>
>[Professional Book Group] [The McGraw-Hill Companies] [Contact Us] [Book
Catalog] 
>    
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
>McGraw-Hill Multimedia Encyclopedia of 
>Science & Technology, Release 2.0

Price is $995 by phone and $795 on the Mcgraw-Hill Web page.  That is much,
much higher than Encyclopedia Britannica.

Ed
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 09:39:18 1998
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>      Sorry you missed it.  Money exists on the Enterprise, just not in
> physical form.  (Of course, over 90% of money today exists only in
> electronic form.)  If you don't believe me, explain how the Ferangi can run
> a casino on Deepspace 9.

That's on a space station tho.. I was referring specifically to on
the starships.. yeah there's money, but it's not used on the ships..
if someone goes to a replicator and orders some food, they don't
need to put money in.. or if they go to sickbay, they don't get a bill..

ttyl
-Steve
-- 
     darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616    
   DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net
Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 09:58:33 1998
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Scott Little's wave forms
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At 11:54 AM 8/16/98 EDT, BriggsRO aol.com wrote:
>You asked for coments on your strange current wave form.  If I were trying to
>make precision measurements as you are, I'd find a ripple free d.c. source.
>The unfiltered, rectified a.c. introduces a swarm of unknown conditions
>including a question as to whether you are really getting an RMS measurement
>of current and voltage.  The noise you are seeing on the wave form is
>obviously voltage sensitive and with a "constantly varying d.c.",
>understanding it is much more complicated.     

    This is a characteristic of arcs, and if he eliminates it to make the
measurement easier, he won't be measuring the same phenomena.  Incidently,
I've managed to get smooth current waveforms, but the only way to a smooth
voltage curve is a glow discharge, not an arc.  You can of course measure
the input power to the power supply, but that leads to other problems. I n
general the power supply will have a fairly low power factor.  If you add
capacitance or inductance to correct the power factor, again you are not
measuring under the same conditions.  For example, working with pulsed
Xenon arcs, it took me about a month to get an accurate measure of the
power dissipated in the tube.  Of course, it was within 1% of what we
calculated form input power and losses in the power supply, but we needed
to know when the power went in.  Turned out that the instantaneous light
output was not closely correlated with instantaneous power in.  Plugged
into a computational model, it let us know how much power the tube was
storing--about 40 joules in normal operation, up to 150 joules under
extreme circumstances.  Now if we could only store it for more than a few
microseconds.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Logic Problem
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Dear vo,

If you try to fail and succeed , which have you done?

J.O.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 10:19:50 1998
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Jim Ostrowski wrote:
> 
> Dear vo,
> 
> If you try to fail and succeed , which have you done?
> 

There are two possible answers:

1. You have succeded in failing, therefore are sucessful
2. You have not failed, therefore you are unsucessful

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 10:30:40 1998
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From: SciBorg8 aol.com
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They're right. The Federation doesn't use money. The Ferengi race never gave
up money. I never said all alien races have given up money. We were only
talking about the humans. The Ferengi's are completely money driven. That's
their whole society basically. But the Federation still has done away with
money. Watch star trek: first contact. Picard says once I believe when he is
talking to the woman from the 21st century. 

The Ferengi's and other aliens like them do use money in the form of some
valuable element. Like how we used gold, the gold latnum.

Eric

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 10:34:44 1998
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Subject: Re: Scott Little's wave forms 
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The true input electrical power is

 (integration or averaging time)^-1 * integral[V(t)*I(t) dt]

The input energy is just the integral without dividing by the time.

If you filter out high frequency (or any other components) you get the
wrong answer. If you phase shift some component(s) of the signal relative
to the others, you get the wrong answer.

However, it can be proved by application of the Schwarz inequality theorem
from calculus that:

  True input power is less than or equal to RMS V times RMS I.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics,  PO Box 85608,  San Diego CA 92186-5608,  USA
Telephone    Voice:   619-455-2841         Fax:   619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 10:46:22 1998
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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Robert I Eichus misses the main point.  Eliminating the ripple on the power
supply won't interfere with the arc-generated noise.  It will allow you to
create it continuously rather in bursts at the ripple frequrency (120 hz).  
Once you have d.c. you have no trouble measuring the power directly into the
load.  You don't have to worry about anything ahead of your amp meter and volt
meter.

Bob Briggs

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On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 SciBorg8 aol.com wrote:

> They're right. The Federation doesn't use money. The Ferengi race never gave
> up money. I never said all alien races have given up money. We were only
> talking about the humans. The Ferengi's are completely money driven. That's
> their whole society basically. But the Federation still has done away with
> money.

So if someone from the "Federation" wanted to do a little gambling at one
of the "Farengi's" casinos how would s/he go about doing that?


 Watch star trek: first contact. Picard says once I believe when he is
> talking to the woman from the 21st century. 
> 

What century is Picard in , and if its not the 21st how did was the woman 
able to talk to him?

> The Ferengi's and other aliens like them do use money in the form of some
> valuable element. Like how we used gold, the gold latnum.
> 

Can someone from the "federation" own the "valuable element" ?

Jim Ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 11:29:20 1998
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On 17-Aug-98, Jim Ostrowski wrote:

>Dear vo,

>If you try to fail and succeed , which have you done?

>J.O.

 Isn't that kinda like saying, "Jim, the next thing I want 
you to do is to make a mistake" ? :)

ChuckD....


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Subject: was -Star Trek- now Free Energy again - but still Star trek (sigh)
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On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Remi Cornwall wrote:

> They did that to introduce a little sleaze and adult sophistication into 
> it so that it would appeal to a mass audience not sci-fi geeks.

That makes the writers of Star Trek ratings-driven sleazebags , doesn't
it?


> They need 
> a kind of plot consientency bible like lucas in star wars.
> Remi.

Yeah, Remi. It's all production values which tend to be ratings driven
rather than consistent with any sort of "bible".

Jim O. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 12:25:45 1998
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> So if someone from the "Federation" wanted to do a little gambling at > one of the "Farengi's" casinos how would s/he go about doing that?
> 

I'm sure they could have money, they just don't get paid for being
in Starfleet..

>  Watch star trek: first contact. Picard says once I believe when he is
> > talking to the woman from the 21st century.
> 
> What century is Picard in , and if its not the 21st how did was the > woman able to talk to him?

The Enterprise travelled back in time to stop the Borg from assimilating
Earth in the 21st century..
> 
> > The Ferengi's and other aliens like them do use money in the form of some
> > valuable element. Like how we used gold, the gold latnum.
> >
> 
> Can someone from the "federation" own the "valuable element" ?

yeah.. Riker has used latinum before, such as when he went to DS9 (and
went gambling at Quarks)

ttyl
-Steve
-- 
     darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616    
   DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net
Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 13:14:17 1998
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Hey guys, aren't there better lists to debate the finer points of made up SciFi
economies?  Just asking cause I am pretty sure it isn't this one....

Live long and perspire.

-- 

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    John E. Steck
      Senior Mechanical Engineer
      Rapid Tooling Applications
      Motorola CE, PCS, Libertyville, IL
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 14:11:10 1998
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On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, John Steck wrote:

> Hey guys, aren't there better lists to debate the finer points of made
> up SciFi
> economies?  Just asking cause I am pretty sure it isn't this one....


You are absolutely right John- This whole thing started off as an
interesting comment by Steve about FREE ENERGY and "how "Free" (no money
exchanged) - might work. Nobody wants to stay on point ,though .

Guys , this list is about REAL SCIENCE not Star Trek - let's not clutter
up people's HD's with crap about Star Trek! You already have my views
and I have yours so let's drop it or take it to private email.

Jim Ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 14:33:41 1998
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Scott Little's wave forms 
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At 10:27 AM 8/17/98 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote:
>  True input power is less than or equal to RMS V times RMS I.

   Unfortunately, very useless.  The power factor in an arc (power/rms
V/rms I) can be as low as 0.01, and I have measured power factors in the
0.03 range.  All this will do is convince you that your power supply is
overunity.

   Second, limiting the delta I in an arc can prevent ignition, and trying
to limit delta V can be hazardous to your health.  (You have to consider
the possibility of high frequency oscillations in the arc dumping all or
most of the power into the resistance losses in the capacitors.  I have
seen more than one oil-filled capacitor cook off, and we ended up checking
the internal resistance of oil-filled caps before using them in equipment.
Seems that manufacturing didn't consider that test of high-priorty.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Robert I. Eachus wrote:
At 09:16 PM 8/13/98 -0400, Steve wrote: <-- another Steve:)
>Ok, to provide an example, look at Star Trek.. on the starships at
>least, there is no money.. people simply do their jobs and in exchange
>get what they need to survive. (eg. food, place to live, medical
>care, clothing, etc.) 

     Sorry you missed it.  Money exists on the Enterprise, just not in
physical form.  (Of course, over 90% of money today exists only in
electronic form.)  If you don't believe me, explain how the Ferangi can run
a casino on Deepspace 9.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

--------------------------
Also, what about the welfare cases of "aha, i don't want to work today",
get someone else to "simply do my job" [But, he Still wants a bed & to be
feed, medical care & clothing] Promised when he joined the
federation Right?? hummm, Throw him overboard!!??!! Sounds
good to me:), why don't they star-trek THAT episode.

pay incentive, money or other, is cumulative (and debitable!) hello real
world!

-=se=-
ekwall2 diac.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 15:24:54 1998
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From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
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Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:17:23 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scott Little's wave forms
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>Schaffer wrote:
>>  True input power is less than or equal to RMS V times RMS I.

Eachus replied:
>   Unfortunately, very useless.  The power factor in an arc (power/rms
>V/rms I) can be as low as 0.01, and I have measured power factors in the
>0.03 range.  All this will do is convince you that your power supply is
>overunity.

I presented a mathematical result.
The practical conclusion is:  "True" rms meters can be bought today at
modest cost, so they are a possible instrument to consider. If one has true
rms meters that work accurately over the dynamic voltage and frequency
range of the cell's V and I signals, then one can read two separate
signals, V_rms and I_rms. One can multiply the two together. What does this
mean? The theorem says that the true rms input power is less than V_rms *
I_rms. Therefore, it is harder to make an experiment look "overunity," if
all one does is multiply the two rms signals. If the power factor is as low
as 0.01, as Robert has seen, then the system will have to actually be 100
times ou in order to appear to be just breakeven. "Unfortunately, very
useless."

Here I also made the further assumption that each of these signals' rms
readings does not vary much in time, i.e. that the arc is steady at times
longer than the meters' averaging times. This is not true for all arcs.

Some digital sampling oscilloscopes can multiply two signals and then
calculate the rms true power.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics,  PO Box 85608,  San Diego CA 92186-5608,  USA
Telephone    Voice:   619-455-2841         Fax:   619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 16:58:05 1998
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Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:28:01 -0400
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Scott's waveforms and battery
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At 11:03 AM 8/17/98 EDT, you wrote:
>If you have a clean, constant d.c. you don't have to know anything about the
>energy stored in the source.  All you need is an amp meter and a volt
meter.  
>
>Bob
>
>

   Bob is correct.  Control of the power source is required
prior to seriously investigating systems driven by that source.

      Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 17:05:44 1998
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Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:30:46 -0400
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Scott's waveforms and battery
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At 11:03 AM 8/17/98 EDT, you wrote:
>If you have a clean, constant d.c. you don't have to know anything about the
>energy stored in the source.  All you need is an amp meter and a volt
meter.  
>
>Bob
>
>

   Bob is correct.  Control of the power source is required
prior to seriously investigating systems driven by that source.

      Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 17:34:17 1998
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From: HLafonte aol.com
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Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:26:11 EDT
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com
Cc: newman-l emachine.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Subject: (Butch) Elliptical flux splitting design on site
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To all,
I have updated my web site with the new upgrade of the off-set rotor design.
It is the first drawing on the site. Comments welcome, to list or direct.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
http://members.aol.com/HLafonte/lafonteresearchsite1.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 18:08:35 1998
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Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 23:30:46 -0400
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Subject: Re: Scott's waveforms and battery
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At 11:03 AM 8/17/98 EDT, you wrote:
>If you have a clean, constant d.c. you don't have to know anything about the
>energy stored in the source.  All you need is an amp meter and a volt
meter.  
>
>Bob
>
>

   Bob is correct.  Control of the power source is required
prior to seriously investigating systems driven by that source.

      Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 19:25:15 1998
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Sirs,

I want to follow on from the issue Mitchell Swartz raised about the 
necessity for fact over conjecture even with such an eccentric case as 
Stanley Meyer.

I do not understand why the staff of such an earnest magazine as 
Infinite Energy are unable to discuss such a matter without resorting to 
inaccuracy, gross exaggeration, prejudice and selective conjecture.  In 
my opinion, their activity comes across a little more than tactics used 
by others in a smear campaign.  Whether valid or invalid such overly 
emotional behaviour should not have a place in science, however common 
it is becoming.

I would like to correct some of the statements made for those that do 
not have access to their own objective sources of information on the 
matter. I have a couple of questions that I would someone, anyone to 
answer.

Firstly, 

We have spoken to Jane Warren, the journalist at The Express that wrote 
the archetypal " woo-woo " free energy conspiracy story one has come to 
expect from uniformed indiviudals on Meyer's death.  Based largely on 
extracts from the internet discussion groups and Infinite Energy 
sources, the article which Infinite Energy collaborated claims Meyer was 
doing Cold Fusion, that CF was the science of combining Hydrogen and 
Oxygen and quotes Dr Mallove saying censorable "... shit ! " to Middle 
England.  The Express is a right-wing middle class family tabloid 
newspaper.

In it she quotes a " scientist " that knew Meyer for X number of years 
that saw/rode in the water powered car.  Although I do not know if this 
is true or not, she said that this individual did not want to be named 
but that she was put in touch with them via Dr Mallove.  

• Can we please know who this individual is of have direct contact with 
them?  Their witness may be useful in divining the facts of this 
situation.  If my source is  incorrect could I, please be corrected.

My guess is Francis Leonard ( aka Leonard Holihan of the spurious and 
non-existent London based Advanced Energy Research Institute ).

Secondly, 

• Could Infinite Energy please make public the information it used to 
deliberately sabotage Admiral Griffin's House of Lords seminar to 
promote new energy technologies at which Meyer was to be one of the 
speakers?  Shortly after the sabotage, UK editor Christopher Tinsley was 
boasting at a Fortean Times " Unconvention ", that he had been 
responsible for blowing out. I would like to know if that information 
was factual, complete or conjecture.  Fortean Times is an adult comic 
known for its exposee of weird sex deaths, fairies and flying saucers.

I have asked for this information on a number of occasions and would 
appreciate it now and do not consider it to be " history ", nor " moot 
points " as I have been told.  

The consequences of these actions remain with me and still overshadow 
those who wish to promote new energy technologies in the UK.  I worked 
for several months in the build up to that seminar and lost a 
considerable professional investment.  In my opinion, the debacle also 
set back the cause of new energy technologies several years given the 
ingrained prejudice of the scientific and political community to cold 
fusion or new hydrogen energy. 

For the record, I tried hard to encourage the Admiral to broaden the 
scope of the seminar to include a British based research scientist 
developing a light water/nickel cell since mentioned by Norman Horwood.  
Christopher Eccles, not Davies, an inventor I raised considerable 
funding for and made useful introductions.  More of which I could say 
later.  

I am not too sure that we can accept the court legal findings reliable.  
We can certainly not accept it scientific findings. And I find it hard 
to accept as reasonable opinions such as Jed Rothwell's statements that, 
" a scientist who refuses to reveal his secrets is either a fraud or 
tantamount to a fraud. The difference is immaterial. Either way he 
deserves to die in disgrace. "  This would surely include any scientist 
working on space or defense related matters and most scientists 
contracted to other governmental or corporate interests.  

Members of the Channel 4/Inca production team spoke to NASA personal 
working with Meyer during their days filming, other sources have 
confirmed this.

If the Infinite Energy team was as scrupulous in their accuracy as they 
were vigorous in their efforts to discredit this scientist, I could give 
them some respect but given the increasing size of their exaggerations 
and efforts to encourage prejudice in others, I cannot.

Meyer demonstrated his car running in the mid eighties, over 5 years 
before CF went public.  We have reliable sources to back this statement 
up at PhD level.  A car running on power from a battery alone would run 
for a limited distance on conventional electrolysis, between 16 - 25 km, 
I would estimate but you would have problems with production and 
storage.  Meyer's fuel cell is not electrolytic in nature.

The figure was not $80m as you know, nor did Meyer take another investor 
for £250,000 as Mr Norman Horwood stated early. ( Principle sources on 
both accounts ).  In opposition to the imaginary and uninformed 
statements made by Dr Mallove in his obituary of Stanley Meyer, I must 
say that Admiral Griffin never lost his enthusiasm for Meyer even on his 
death bed despite the aspertions made to the effect he did. 

To equate that the opinions of Christopher Tinsley and the Admiral as 
having equal status and importance was misleading.  The Admiral was a 
Naval expert in hydrogen technology.  Ex-Controller of the Royal Navy 
for a short whil he held the number one position.  He has a reknown 
career as a consummate politician and a captain of industry dealing with 
one of the longest running political bills of the 70s.  But then it was 
also misleading to seperately assign the title of engineer to scientific 
hobbyist Messers Tinsley and Horwood in that article with out naming 
them. 

To suggest that their failure to replicate patents meant anything, or to 
suggest patent include all proprietary information is laughable.  I am 
glad that this is something Norman agrees with me on, we wonder how 
individuals with such an obvious intelligence and commitment as the 
Infinite Energy team can be so naive at times.  

I make it clear that my own position in this is objective and impartial.  
There seems to been a clash in principles and personalities types that I 
do not understand between those desperate for professional 
acknowledgement, status and financial and an individual more interested 
in protecting his own rights.  I have to say that on the basis of my own 
and others experience, I found Stan open, generous and reasonable. 

I do not know if a clear description of Meyer's basic cell has ever been 
made on this list.  There are several interesting and notable points to 
be made.  The gas in the cell did not rise off the electrodes but out of 
a cold " electro-chemical plasma [ECP] " between the electrodes.  I use 
the term ECP for want of a better description.

It was not connected to mains electricity.  An electrical motor drove a 
belt that drove a automobile generator that produced the electric 
current that entered Meyer's black box some part of which were made in 
England commissioned by Tony Griffin.  There are limits to what one can 
do with a standard generator therefore any " magic " that was happening 
must have been happening inside this black box the size of a motorcycle 
battery.

Two wires connected the black box to a perspex cell that contained a 
tubular array of stainless steel electrodes, each pair of cathode and 
anode place at a distance of about 1/8th inch concentrically in a 
circle.  In experiments witnessed by British based scientists ( and I 
use the word accurately now ), the cell was filled with tap, purified or 
distilled water.  

Immediately on starting electrical generation a fume of gas rose from 
between the electrodes.  Even after 30 minutes of running, during which 
time tungsten steel was melted, there was no obvious increase in 
temperature. Concentric electrode mean one electrode is greater in size 
that the other causing an increase in potential.  What Meyer was 
hypothesising would seem to me to be consistent to Arrenhuius Theory of 
the 19 century.  Meyer never made statement to the effect of over-unity.  
As it was not an electro-chemical reaction, no or very little energy 
would be " going in ". The hypotheses of oscillation or resonance and 
photon excitation would seem partially reasonable. 

What ever was going on in his cell was not like any electrolysis I have 
even seen and how a senior scientific journalist like Tony Edwards could 
report so in the The Sunday Times astonishes me. He knew it was not yet 
I believe he was part of the same cabal as Messers Tinsley and Edwards. 
I say believe because the infinite Energy team has now closed ranks on 
me and refuses to comment on the issue. 

To write that," Meyer defrauded hundreds of people with these claims. He 
ruined many lives, including his own. His life was a tragic farce " 
without being able to substantiate it factually is libelous and 
actionable.  

To wait until the individual is dead and his company in a state of flux 
before saying such things and aiming a poisoned barb at the mind of 
professionals and the uninformed public is cowardly.  To refuse to have 
a rational discussion about these matters while continuing to defame 
more than one party is not respectable.

I did not find out about Vortex-L until some time after the House of 
Lords seminar and so if the Infinite Energy team still refuse to discuss 
these matters perhaps someone else that was monitoring the discussion at 
that time could enlighten me to the facts of my inquiry.

The issue of over-unity is not one that has ever concerned me, we have 
the sun as a fairly unlimited source of energy to split water but rates 
of hydrogen gas production and economy of doing so is one that effects 
us all.  Given that a hydrogen economy could compete with a hydrocarbon 
fuel on pump to pump basis even with American prices, any considerable 
decrease in the price of hydrogen would rock the scales towards a clean 
energy revolution far quicker than any nuclear system will.

Immature horror stories such as, " his fate should serve as a warning to 
the cold fusion scientists and others who have legitimate excess energy 
claims: If you do not publish, demonstrate, and market your
technology, you will die in ignominy and take your secrets to the grave 
", have no place in adult conversation. There are many other factors to 
be taken into consideration and my experience of several industries 
suggest that the battle any lone inventor has on his hands to hold on to 
his intellectual wealth are almost insurmountable in every case without 
having to watch one's back for malicious attacks from one's own peers.  
If anyone want to argue this case by case I am willing.

I do not know what the final outcome of the Meyer saga will be. I 
certainly do not support every action not believe he had but I do wish 
the the Infinite Energy team had not interfered where they had no 
business because perhaps if they did not we would know one or another by 
know what was really going on in that cell.  I feel that the House of 
Lords seminar and highly level establishmentary attention would have 
given Meyer the security and attention that he need to come out about 
his work.  

A mature and professional handling of the matter would have created an 
atmosphere where such subjects could be discussed rationally opening the 
door to others such as cold fusion. Certainly it was our aim in that 
seminar to do so.  In opposition to an erroneous statement Norman 
Horwood made, the Admiral was not motivated by environmentalism, he was 
engaged in marrying Meyer off the Military first and UK plc second.  

The Admiral willfully opposed an initially useful or civilian 
application.  He did not finance his efforts himself, support came from 
a high level both in the UK and North America.  What confounds me most 
is that as so many of his supporters had such obvious access to national 
and international confidentialities, could they all have acted without 
checking their sources?

• If there are any alternative ideas about how the Meyer's *did* work, 
how ever it did work, I will be happy to discuss the matter with however 
many Amazing James Randi s there are on Vortex as it would still be 
useful to me.

On a human note, I would like to caution again the individuals who had 
such insensitivity to work to place such dubious smear articles in our 
national press that would have caused injury and embarrassment to the 
widow and family of Admiral Griffin following his untimely death and 
during their period of bereavement.  Admiral and Lady Griffin were a 
very well respect couple with a distinguished family that were friends 
of the Royal Family, just as Christopher Davies, investor into the 
Eccles cells is.  The Griffin's son is still a active Commander within 
the Royal Navy.

As John Bockris ( who incidentally tells me Stan Meyer was a second hand 
car dealer, news to me... sources anyone ? ) said, " Science is a game 
". No one, least of all the innocent, should get hurt in the playing of 
it.  

Science should not be about the corruption of friendships and interests, 
it should be based upon the observance and reporting of objective fact.  
Anything less, any more “ personality “ or emotional invovlement, would 
have to be considered unethical.   A point I made to Dr Mallove is that 
I found it disappointing to discover that individuals that themselves 
had suffered at the hands of a closed minded and abusive scientific 
press should in turn become the abusers of others less talented and more 
vulnerable.  

A point I have not made to date is to observe Dr Mallove making grand or 
profane statements in our national press on behalf of the " scientific 
comunity ", considering the opinion of the scientific community to his 
work is sad.  All of this bring up the unfortunate issue of an emerging 
inner politics or multi-tier systems of new energy sciences that can 
only be bad for the cause and needs to be talked out.

As there are a increasing number of individuals now looking to make a 
career or extract status by association from CF and New Energy, this may 
be worth discussion and laying open.  Given that these people will be 
influenced by our behaviour, it would be worth setting good examples.

Your written responses requested,

John Allan
Energy Solutions, London.

energy gold.globalcafe.co.uk

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 20:50:02 1998
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re; A Non-Radiating Hydrogen Electron Configuration
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To: Vortex

As alluded to in a post on August 14, 1998,if
the electron is a String-Circle that surrounds
the 3-Quark Proton and oscillates between the
ground state Bohr radius (5.29E-11 meters) and the rest radius of the
electron (2.81 Fermi)this would imply that "Quantum Mechanical Tunneling"
could occur during the interval that
the electron is at this at the 3 Fermi radius around the Proton or Deuteron.
If the oscillation frequency F,is the Bohr Ground State Frequency F = E/h =
27.2 ev/h = 6.57E15 Hz, then there
is a tunneling window of about 1.52E-16 seconds for a Proton or Deuteron to
"fuse" with the target Proton or Deuteron.

Regarding Non-Radiating Orbits, as opposed to
orbital acceleration, or acceleration due to the electron "bouncing" off a
Proton or Deuteron, the Oscillating String-Circle says that there is little
or no radiation since the circling Charge is relativistically time dilated
by a factor of 2.0E21, thus acting as though it is circling at about 8.5
revs/sec instead of 3.265E15 revs/sec. The wave nature of this model is
covered by Schrodinger's equation,in a given plane.

Thoughts?

Regards,    Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 21:23:36 1998
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From: SciBorg8 aol.com
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Watch the movie.	 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 21:39:12 1998
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I guess Federation citizen are free to own gold latinum. We basically answered
the main question that got us on this topic of star trek. But it has been
interesting.

I suppose we can get back to the main topic. It's just I feel obligated to
respond when someone makes a seemly ignorant comment about star trek. Know
what your talking about. And if you don't know and watch star trek, THAT'S OK.
No one is saying you have to watch. But don't make a comment about something
myself and other take a little seriously maybe too seriously but that our
choice. Several of the topics on this group I don't know much about and I
wouldn't dream of claiming to be an expert. If you have individual questions
about star trek e-mail or maybe darklord darknet.net (Steve) about it. I hope
that clears that up. 

Eric

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 22:18:14 1998
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Subject: Inc. W progress
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I ran the cell inside the calorimeter today with the double-boiler
arrangement to couple the cell to the calorimeter's heat exchange.  It
worked great.  Previously, without the liquid coupling, an input of ~50
watts was more than enough to vigorouslyl boil the electrolyte in the cell.
 Now, with water as a coupling agent, an input of 100 watts only brings the
cell up to around 80C, where the effect takes off.  I was able to maintain
the incandescent condition for about an hour today and, although the W rod
is being eroded visibly, I think it will go for at least 2 or 3 more hours
before needing serious service.

I had some problems with the RFI noise from the cell crashing the comm
between the power analyzer and the central computer.  It seems to be better
since I separated all the wiring carefully.

The cell sounds and look "smoother" with a 1000 mfd filter cap across it.
The cap is sufficient to make V virtually constant but, of course, I
remains a "dense grassland".

I'll attempt a real run tomorrow.



Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 17 23:15:16 1998
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On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 SciBorg8 aol.com wrote:

> I guess Federation citizen are free to own gold latinum. We basically answered
> the main question that got us on this topic of star trek. But it has been
> interesting.

Why is this thread still entitled as above (in the header)? 


> 
> I suppose we can get back to the main topic.

FREE ENERGY?

 It's just I feel obligated to
> respond when someone makes a seemly ignorant comment about star trek. Know
> what your talking about.

As I said before , I have seen enough of this series to recognize when a
society of indentured servants is being depicted. If you would like to
argue otherwise, that argument (if it existed) would confront the
point. Otherwise you are using an ad hominem slur about my being
"ignorant" about some unspecified but pertinent fact relating to the
issue. 




> And if you don't know and watch star trek, THAT'S OK.

We both already know that.


> No one is saying you have to watch. But don't make a comment about something
> myself and other take a little seriously maybe too seriously but that our
> choice.

Yes that is your choice. And unless the First Amendment's been abolished
recently (it may well have been by the way) I will continue to comment
about whatever I choose to - THAT'S MY CHOICE.

 Several of the topics on this group I don't know much about and I
> wouldn't dream of claiming to be an expert. If you have individual questions
> about star trek e-mail or maybe darklord darknet.net (Steve) about it.

"darklord   darknet"  and "Sci.borg" , huh? 

fine. Yes, and if you want another entirely differnt perspective on the
above topic email me , "jimostr victor1.mscomm.com" (Jim Ostrowski)  

 I hope
> that clears that up. 

I hope this is the end of it.

> 
> Eric
> 
> 

Jim

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 01:07:39 1998
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Cut this star trek crap and lets talk about Monica Ostrowski and why 
doesn't Clinton have a better taste in women. Its about as relevant.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 01:17:00 1998
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On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Remi Cornwall wrote:

> Cut this star trek crap and lets talk about Monica Ostrowski and why 
> doesn't Clinton have a better taste in women. Its about as relevant.
> Remi.
> 
> 

Monica Ostrowski?



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 01:34:39 1998
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Covered in egg again :)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 01:43:04 1998
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On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Remi Cornwall wrote:

> Cut this star trek crap and lets talk about Monica Ostrowski and why 
> doesn't Clinton have a better taste in women. Its about as relevant.


I don't really know what you are up to , Mr. Cornwall , but this sort of
camment made in my presence would earn you a flattened nose.

JO


> Remi.
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 01:55:54 1998
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From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: off topic - Monica Lewinski
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Little polish gal was telling the truth , and we know who's a liar now
don't we?

Looks like a setup , though I'll say that. 

Jim Ostrowski



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On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Remi Cornwall wrote:

> Covered in egg again :)
> 
> 

...you are going to claim that was a typo or something?

Jim Ostrowski


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 02:28:53 1998
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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: Remi Cornwall <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 02:29:00 -0700
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On 18-Aug-98, Remi Cornwall wrote:
>Cut this star trek crap and lets talk about Monica Ostrowski and why 
>doesn't Clinton have a better taste in women. Its about as relevant.
>Remi.

I guess he kinda likes 'em where ever he can find 'em ;)

-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\--
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'
 http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 02:29:35 1998
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Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 23:26:37 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Meyer/Mallove/Rothwell
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John Allen writes:

   >  To write that," Meyer defrauded hundreds of people
   >  with these claims. He ruined many lives, including
   >  his own. His life was a tragic farce " without being
   >  able to substantiate it factually is libelous and
   >  actionable.

...and:

   >  Immature horror stories such as, " his fate should
   >  serve as a warning to the cold fusion scientists and
   >  others who have legitimate excess energy claims: If
   >  you do not publish, demonstrate, and market your
   >  technology, you will die in ignominy and take your
   >  secrets to the grave ", have no place in adult
   >  conversation.

For someone who claims to be "happy to discuss the matter", you seem to be
very eager to suppress such discussion. That second quote is an especially
surprising example. We have a right (here in the US at least) to make
statements of fact and opinion like these despite the fact that you may not
like or agree with them. They are on-topic and appropriate to this list.
You're free to go elsewhere for conversation if these kinds of statements
are intolerable to your particular sensibilities.

I have an idea if you'd like to discuss something here: why not reveal to
us the specific nature of your involvement in the Meyer affair? Is it
personal and/or financial? I assume there probably is such a relationship
given the degree of spin you're attempting to put on this.

Meyer himself was simply a fraud. Please get over it. And if his technology
was real, then that's indeed horribly unfortunate for us all, because he
died in ignominy and took his secrets to the grave.

- Rick Monteverde, Tinsley/Mallove/Rothwell cabalist,
Honolulu HI


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On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> ...you are going to claim that was a typo or something?
> 
> 
Oh God! Yanks and irony. Jim do some experiments or read some theory.
Then post something interesting.
Seriously,
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 02:41:33 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: off topic - Monica Lewinski
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On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> 
> Little polish gal was telling the truth , and we know who's a liar now
> don't we?
> 
> Looks like a setup , though I'll say that. 
> 
> Jim Ostrowski
> 
Let's not start a thread but she's a young woman (I can't say lady) and 
the silly girl's gone and got herself in a whole lot of mess. When the 
puppet masters have finished with her she'll earn a living as the tart 
who performed lewd acts with the president. Little more than a high class 
hooker. I feel sorry for her and Hillary.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 03:09:35 1998
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Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:01:54 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Meyer/Mallove/Rothwell
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Please everybody, timeout!

No bitching and speaking ill of people that can't defend themselves. 
Clean the slate and let's get the facts. Who has done the experiments? 
Peer reviewed? Emerging theories.

If I was martian I could kook at humanity with contempt and laugh, but I 
am no better.

Let's be better, make things better. Put aside vested interests and 
emotional ties and go after the truth.

Please, we're not that bad a spieces. It's all that 1% that isn't chimp.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 04:31:11 1998
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Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:23:47 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Meyer/Mallove/Rothwell
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Sorry poor grammar!!

> No bitching and speaking ill of people that can't defend themselves. 
                                         ~~~~

who or is it whom?
Awaiting return of the Jedi 2. You know, the prequel before all the known 
saga. About the struggle between good and bad, hope and despair, 
englightment, salvation.

(subtle as a brick)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 06:10:38 1998
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re; A Non-Radiating Hydrogen Electron and Tunneling
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 06:58:17 -0600
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To: Vortex

Assuming that a "Tunneling Window" of 3E-16 seconds exists when the
String-Circle Hydrogen-Electron is at a 3 Fermi radius,a tunneling Proton or
Deuteron would need to have a velocity of about 1.7E5 meters/second or a
temperature of 1.8E6 deg K, ie., about 150 ev to tunnel in and effect a
reaction.

OTOH, since the Electron-String-Circle-Hydrogen oscillation state is  more
probable in a low temperature Condensed Matter or Cold Fusion situation,
such as a Hydrogen or Deuterium Packed Pd lattice etc., these might give a
higher fusion yield than a plasma.

I Think.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 06:21:49 1998
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Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:09:37 -0400
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Meyer/Mallove/Rothwell
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At 11:26 PM 8/17/98 -1000, you wrote:
>John Allen writes:
>
>   >  To write that," Meyer defrauded hundreds of people
>   >  with these claims. He ruined many lives, including
>   >  his own. His life was a tragic farce " without being
>   >  able to substantiate it factually is libelous and
>   >  actionable.
>
>...and:
>
>   >  Immature horror stories such as, " his fate should
>   >  serve as a warning to the cold fusion scientists and
>   >  others who have legitimate excess energy claims: If
>   >  you do not publish, demonstrate, and market your
>   >  technology, you will die in ignominy and take your
>   >  secrets to the grave ", have no place in adult
>   >  conversation.
>
>For someone who claims to be "happy to discuss the matter", you seem to be
>very eager to suppress such discussion. That second quote is an especially
>surprising example. We have a right (here in the US at least) to make
>statements of fact and opinion like these despite the fact that you may not
>like or agree with them. They are on-topic and appropriate to this list.
>You're free to go elsewhere for conversation if these kinds of statements
>are intolerable to your particular sensibilities.


 Take a closer look, Remi.

 John Allen has written a very good piece which we should
be grateful was posted here.  
 He has separated a dichotomy of science vs. ad hominems.

 Take a closer look, Remi.  Unlike the diatribe before 
Mr. Allan's post, his post DOES belong here to correct it.

 ==========================================================

>>I have an idea if you'd like to discuss something here: why not reveal to
>us the specific nature of your involvement in the Meyer affair? Is it
>personal and/or financial? I assume there probably is such a relationship
>given the degree of spin you're attempting to put on this.
>
>Meyer himself was simply a fraud. Please get over it. And if his technology
>was real, then that's indeed horribly unfortunate for us all, because he
>died in ignominy and took his secrets to the grave.
>

   There has been no evidence shown directly to me yet 
that Meyer stated in his writings what has been attributed to him.  

   Apparently both Mr. Allen and myself have been investigating this, 
and those that pulled the "hatchetjob" Meyers so far have apparently 
given neither Mr. Allen, nor myself, evidence seriously 
substantiating their claims, despite requests

   Dr. Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 06:33:17 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Meyer/Mallove/Rothwell
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Thank you Dr Swartz,

You are fair and genuine and well respected. I shall talk to John and try 
to gather more evidence before I would use my vote to influence the 
London group to duplicate his work.

Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 08:35:07 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Meyer/Mallove/Rothwell
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Vo,

Apologies if you think others are riding on the back of cf phenom. when
you have a rough ride already. If Meyer is not cf, just say so and don't
get angry Anger is a temporary electro-chemical imbalance of the brain and
served some purpose when we were chimps , no doubt. I know that in the
public eye, anything electrochemical and ou will get confused and will
distract from your efforts to get funding etc. 

If someone won't disclose and is playing silly fools, I don't know what 
you can do apart from ignore them and safely cordon them off.

Very, very confused not knowing who to believe.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 08:44:40 1998
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Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:40:12 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: John Allan's comments
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To: Vortex; John Allan >INTERNET:energy_solutions hotmail.com

John Allan made a number of comments here about Meyer, attacking I.E. and us.
I think his comments are opinions, and I cannot argue with opinions, so I
won't. Certainly *my* comments about Meyer were opinions, especially when I
said: "If you do not publish, demonstrate, and market your technology, you
will die in ignominy and take your secrets to the grave." Anyone can see that
is an opinion. It is a moral judgement. You can agree or disagree, but you
cannot argue any more than you can argue with a person who insists that
premarital sex is a sin.

I cannot argue with Allan's opinions, but he misrepresented some facts which I
will correct for the record, and he asked some direct questions which I would
be pleased to answer.

     Although I do not know if this is true or not, she said that this
     individual did not want to be named but that she was put in touch with
     them via Dr Mallove.

     Can we please know who this individual is of have direct contact with
     them?

I have no idea who this person Dr. X is, or whether he exists . . . But if Dr.
X asked Mallove and Jane Warren not to reveal his name, you can be damned sure
we will not reveal his name. Period.


     Could Infinite Energy please make public the information it used to
     deliberately sabotage Admiral Griffin's House of Lords seminar to
     promote new energy technologies at which Meyer was to be one of the
     speakers?

We put the British authorities in the House of Lords in touch with the court
clerk in Ohio, and she faxed them the details of the case in which Meyer was
convicted of fraud. That's all we did, and that is all it took. I believe they
conducted their own investigation and found out about Meyer's fraudulent
dealings in Ireland. Meyer showed up and gave his lecture. The audience
listened politely. Meyer went home. They did not take him seriously because
they knew, thanks to us in part, that he had no credibility.

Incidentally, Allen and Swartz have often accused us of hiding our role in
this affair. To the contrary, we bragged about our role when the incident
occurred and frequently after that. I brag about it today. Chris and I did a
fine thing, we had a wonderful time, and I would do it again tomorrow. The
whole incident was hilarious.


     Fortean Times is an adult comic known for its exposee of weird sex
     deaths, fairies and flying saucers.

Fortean Times does carry some interesting comics, but it is mainly devoted to
papers and articles about unusual scientific investigations. These are not
"adult comics" in the sense that term is used in the U.S. They are not
pornographic.


     I worked for several months in the build up to that seminar and lost a
     considerable professional investment.

Bravo! We did you a great favor, John. Does "professional investment" mean
money? You would have lost a whole bunch more money if you had stuck with
Meyer. Talk to the people he ripped off in Ireland. Talk the people who sued
him and won in Ohio. Elsewhere, Allan contradicts this statement:

     I make it clear that my own position in this is objective and impartial.

Sure! You built up the "seminar," you lost a considerable professional
investment (whatever that means), but you are Mr. Objective Impartial Judge,
are you?!? Ha! Say, Mr. Objective, did it ever occur to you to go to Ohio with
a meter to measure the Meyer effect? Did you ever try that? All this talk
about "objective" and "impartial" is bullshit. You want objective? Do an
experiment! Measure the effect!!! Nothing on earth is more objective than a
meter reading. If you had tried that with Meyer he would not allowed you near
the machine.


     And I find it hard to accept as reasonable opinions such as Jed
     Rothwell's statements that, " a scientist who refuses to reveal his
     secrets is either a fraud or tantamount to a fraud. The difference is
     immaterial. Either way he deserves to die in disgrace. "  This would
     surely include any scientist working on space or defense related matters
     and most scientists contracted to other governmental or corporate
     interests.

Space research is an open book. Successful corporate research leads to
products which are sold on the open market, bringing the benefits of the
research to humanity (and allowing competitors to reverse engineer). Defense
is special case.


     A car running on power from a battery alone would run for a limited
     distance on conventional electrolysis, between 16 - 25 km . . .

That's absurd.


     The figure was not $80m as you know . . .

Sorry . . . it was $50 million, as reported in Warren's article in the Daily
Express. I misread "5" as "8" in a fax copy. I do not believe either number.
No sane person would invest $50 million or $50 thousand in Meyer.


     To write that," Meyer defrauded hundreds of people with these claims. He
     ruined many lives, including his own. His life was a tragic farce "
     without being able to substantiate it factually is libelous and
     actionable.

Technically, you cannot libel a dead person. But I think there is copious
proof that Meyer defrauded people. He surely destroyed himself. Nothing
Tinsley or I could have done would have hurt him one-millionth as much as what
he did to himself.


     To wait until the individual is dead and his company in a state of flux
     before saying such things and aiming a poisoned barb at the mind of
     professionals and the uninformed public is cowardly.

Perhaps it would be cowardly, but I attacked Meyer vigorously when he was
alive, and Mallove visited him and challenged him face to face in public,
asking him to allow an engineer (not necessarily Mallove) to observe the
machine and measure input and output. Meyer refused. We challenged Meyer and
we publicly attacked him while he was alive despite the fact that Meyer
carried a gun, he was notoriously unstable & hysterical, he threatened
Mallove, and he had been accused of violent attacks on other people. That
makes us foolhardy, not cowardly.


     I did not find out about Vortex-L until some time after the House of
     Lords seminar and so if the Infinite Energy team still refuse to discuss
     these matters perhaps someone else that was monitoring the discussion at
     that time could enlighten me to the facts of my inquiry.

We have NEVER refused to discuss these issues. We bragged about them!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 09:24:29 1998
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Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:19:33 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Confused? Don't know who to believe?
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To: Vortex

In a melancholy message, Remi Cornwall writes:

     Very, very confused not knowing who to believe.

You poor soul! Let me set you straight. NEVER believe anyone. People can be
confused, or wrong, or liars. Don't believe me, and don't ever believe people
like Meyer. Here is how you find the truth:

<Pause>  <Drumroll> <The Curtain Opens> DO AN EXPERIMENT! MEASURE IT! TEST IT!

The instruments speak truth. Everything else is speculation. In the case of
Meyer, unfortunately, he did not allow people to take measurements, so we'll
never know the truth. The only think we can be sure of is that the skilled,
independent replications based on the information Meyer revealed always
failed. The information Meyer supplied was a mishmash of crackpot theory,
vague, grandiose claims, and detailed patents which never worked.


     If Meyer is not cf,  just say so . . .

Who knows what it was? Who can say? He never let anyone see it. Maybe his wife
will, now that he has croaked . . . Say, that gives me an idea. This guy John
Allan and Mitch Swartz are wasting their time here on Vortex and in private
e-mail with asinine attacks on us. Let them act in a more constructive
fashion. They should contact Mrs. Meyer and offer their services. They should
go to Ohio, test the equipment, and get to the bottom of this story. We did
experiments. We spent airfare visiting Meyer, and risked his temper. We have
done our share! We gave Meyer every opportunity to prove his point. These
apologists who defend Meyer's reputation should do real work and spend real
money to vindicate him, instead of yapping and carrying on.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 09:44:11 1998
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Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:38:33 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Meyer/Mallove/Rothwell
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To: Vortex

[I sent this message earlier but I think it bounced back. Sorry if this is a
duplicate. Also, I promise I will shut up about Meyer now, even if these
people continue to attack my views. I am busy with other stuff anyway . . . 
- JR]


Remi Cornwall asks:

     No bitching and speaking ill of people that can't defend themselves.

Meyer had many years to defend himself and prove his point when he was alive,
but he refused to do so.


     Clean the slate and let's get the facts. Who has done the experiments?
     Peer reviewed? Emerging theories.

The facts are published in e-mail archives. Over the years, dozens of people
including Mallove and Horwood made careful attempts to replicate from the
patents and other published information. These attempts failed. Meyer
never lifted a finger to help. He refused to demonstrate a device. When
Mallove and others visited him, he did not allow them to make simple,
non-invasive measurements with meters to verify his claims. When people asked
to look more closely at the machines, Meyer became hysterical and threatened
violence. I believe the threat was real. He was known to carry a gun and he
had been involved in violent incidents unrelated to his inventions. There are
no peer reviewed papers and no coherent theories as far as I know.


     Put aside vested interests and emotional ties and go after the truth.

We did that, years ago, when we tried to replicate. In science, you go after
the truth by doing the experiment. We did. It failed. Many other experiments
have failed, but the inventor or originator usually made a good-faith effort
to assist. Meyer did not.


Mitch Swartz writes:

     Apparently both Mr. Allen and myself have been investigating this, and
     those that pulled the "hatchetjob" Meyers so far have apparently given
     neither Mr. Allen, nor myself, evidence seriously substantiating their
     claims, despite requests

That is incorrect. We have responded to these requests with what we consider
serious, compelling evidence, but Swartz disagrees. He does not think it is
compelling. We think the quotes from Meyer and the fact that he claimed the
car could propel itself constitute rock-solid proof that Meyer claimed
over-unity. Swartz disagrees, although he will not explain why. This is a
difference of opinion, not, as Swartz claims, a failure to act on our part, or
a failure to supply information. He confuses his opinion with our actions.

Also, Swartz spells the name wrong, for the fifteenth time. It is Meyer, not
Meyers.

- Jed

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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Vo,

When you were a kid, you quickly learnt not to fight other people's 
battles (we'll I did). No matter how just the cause seemed, you'd come 
off the loser. I'm bowing out of this, got my own thing to do, I 
understand it and know how to go ahead.

(it shouldn't take me nine going on tens years :)
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 09:50:32 1998
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At 12:38 PM 8/18/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Mitch Swartz writes:
>
>     Apparently both Mr. Allen and myself have been investigating this, and
>     those that pulled the "hatchetjob" Meyers so far have apparently given
>     neither Mr. Allen, nor myself, evidence seriously substantiating their
>     claims, despite requests
>
>That is incorrect. We have responded to these requests with what we consider
>serious, compelling evidence, but Swartz disagrees.

   You have not provided a single quote.  In fact, only Robin
van Spaandonk has offer a remotely connect quote.


>We think the quotes from Meyer and the fact that he claimed the
>car could propel itself constitute rock-solid proof that Meyer claimed
>over-unity. Swartz disagrees, although he will not explain why. 

   Please give the quote, fully cited, and perhaps in the
paragraph of few sentences.   That would put the matter to rest.

   We are all looking into what Robin mentioned, but this was not 
explicitly "over-unity", although perhaps it may be inferred.

    Mitchell Swartz



   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 09:50:44 1998
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  At 12:19 PM 8/18/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell purports:

>Who knows what it was? Who can say? He never let anyone see it. Maybe his
wife
>will, now that he has croaked . . . Say, that gives me an idea. This guy John
>Allan and Mitch Swartz are wasting their time here on Vortex and in private
>e-mail with asinine attacks on us. Let them act in a more constructive
>fashion. They should contact Mrs. Meyer and offer their services. They should
>go to Ohio, test the equipment, and get to the bottom of this story. We did
>experiments. We spent airfare visiting Meyer, and risked his temper. We have
>done our share! We gave Meyer every opportunity to prove his point. These
>apologists who defend Meyer's reputation should do real work and spend real
>money to vindicate him, instead of yapping and carrying on.
>- Jed


    The issue is the science, and Mr. Meyer discussed using hydrogen
electrolysis to drive automobiles.  He should in the videos using
water to purportedly drive a car.
   In all the videos which I have seen
of him, and in his early papers, there does not appear to be mention
of cf or "o/u".    To determine if these were THRUST upon him, I have
asked Jed about his role, and if he had data on this, but have 
received the same tantrum attacks that he espouses upon John Allan.
Neither of these discussions is wasting his time, and John
Allan, a contributor to vortex and a worldknown investigator of
overunity systems is encouraged to continue.


    If this is not discussed on vortex (especially without the 
ad hominems), then where will it be correctly discussed.
    If this is not discussed now, then more disinformation will
push out the good science, as happened on spf.

    Jed's attacks on scientists and researchers in cold fusion
-- and now other possible overunity fields -- is not proper.   And his
claim that focusing on 'science' is 'yapping' would be simply laughable,
had not Mr. Meyer met such an untimely death with Jed emulating Brutus
on vortex where it was agreed that such is improper.

    Mitchell Swartz

 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 09:57:13 1998
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   Dont give up Remi.  You asked a great question.

  The trouble is, each of us has our own table
of which phenomena we believe/have done  and those
which we dont-believe/have disproved   and those
of which we are skeptical to varying degrees.

   We sort these on our 'wisdom', and to develop
yours, you must construct your own.

   Best wishes.

     Mitchell Swartz

 ===============================       


  At 05:46 PM 8/18/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Vo,
>
>When you were a kid, you quickly learnt not to fight other people's 
>battles (we'll I did). No matter how just the cause seemed, you'd come 
>off the loser. I'm bowing out of this, got my own thing to do, I 
>understand it and know how to go ahead.
>
>(it shouldn't take me nine going on tens years :)
>Remi.
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 10:04:27 1998
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Thanks Mitch,

Very heartwarming. I wish you *ALL* well. Delusion is a terrible thing 
when you deceive yourself and others. Anyway, let's behave because we're 
some of the best the human race has to offer.

Remember the prime directive in Star Trek.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 10:14:02 1998
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:09:58 EDT
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Scott,

Sounds like progress.  1000mfd is a big capacitor but I'm surprized you didn't
need some L or R between it and the rectifier to get that result.  Have you
looked at the voltage wave form under full load?

I'll be looking forward to your next report. Thanks for keeping us posted on
your results.  

Bob Briggs

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 14:53:55 1998
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
Subject: Electron in Crossed E & B Fields 
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:56:39 -0400
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In searching on a different subject I came across the following at:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/9222/ele.htm

>Convert heat to electric energy with static electric and magnetic fields
>Gerhard Kainz, E-Mail: gerhard.kainz siemens.at
>Abstract
>This article should show that static crossed electric and magnetic fields
force electrons to >move in one direction. This can be used to produce an
electric current. While moving, they >convert heat into electric energy,
which would contradict the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The >first part of the
article shows the principle of the idea. The second part describes some
>possible applications.
-
This idea seems similar to earlier discussions on vortex of V x B drift.
-
Coincidentally, I then ran into the following neat Java simulation
of the motion of an electron in crossed E and B fields. You can set
many initial parameters and watch the resulting motion.

http://webphysics.ph.msstate.edu/javamirror/ntnujava/emField/emField.html
-
George Holz  - george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 14:55:10 1998
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At 03:17 PM 8/17/98 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote:
>Some digital sampling oscilloscopes can multiply two signals and then
>calculate the rms true power.

   Been there done that.  There are also some good (but expensive) watt
meters that actually read power not volt-amperes, and some op-amp based
meters that are pretty good.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:57:50 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Meyer car observations
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To: Vortex

I promised I would shut up about this, but like Our President, sometimes I
don't mean what I say. Okay? I'd like to point out a few things about the
Meyer car, because I think that people commenting on this forum are not paying
attention to direct observations and basic facts. You can learn far more by
looking at a machine than you can by gabbing about it, collecting people's
opinions, or citing statements by anonymous Professor X. For example, those
who claimed that the Pons-Fleischmann cell boil off was caused by high current
electrolysis should have *looked* at the video and photographs. They would
have observed that electrolysis was stopped, if they had the eyes to see.

Let us examine a photo or video of the car for a moment. Mitch Swartz claimed
"Mr. Meyer discussed using hydrogen electrolysis to drive automobiles." No, he
couldn't have meant ordinary hydrogen electrolysis. There was no storage tank
on the car. The only source of energy was the battery, and the only way it
could produce enough energy to make the car move would be to trigger a
mysterious process that generates far more energy out than the battery puts
in.

John Allan wrote: "A car running on power from a battery alone would run for a
limited distance on conventional electrolysis, between 16 - 25 km . . ." I
said "That's absurd." Let me explain. Let's look at basic mechanics. Compare
the battery to the ones you see on wheelchairs used by disabled and elderly
people. Do you think one of those wheelchairs could go 16 to 25 kilometers on
a single charge? Wheelchairs carry about twice the weight of a person; they do
far less work than the Meyer car would have to do. What do Allan and Swartz
think the battery does, anyway? What is its role? Allan says, "it runs on
battery alone . . . on conventional electrolysis." That's an interesting
assertion. What does it mean? First of all, the battery is needed to crank the
motor, which is a conventional ICE. We know it is: the only time anyone saw
the car run was when Meyer "primed it" -- as he said -- with conventional
gasoline.

Allan appears to be saying that the battery was also used for conventional
electrolysis. Okay, there is no storage tank, so that means the battery
electrolyzes water creating a stoichiometric mix of H2 and O2 in a steady
stream which goes directly into the motor. That process is ~65% efficient
according to PG&E and the DoE. A third of the battery power is lost to waste
heat. The gas is burned in the ICE, which is ~17% efficient, according to the
JPL (for natural gas), and 85% of the resulting energy goes through the power
train and transmission to be delivered as vehicle propulsion. So we end up
delivering roughly 9% of the power from the battery to the car, in a Rube
Goldberg arrangement. With a wheelchair and an electric motor, 85% of the
power is delivered as effective vehicle propulsion, yet when the battery opens
up at full power and grows hot, you can still outwalk the wheelchair. So how
fast do you suppose the automobile would run? What would it do on a slight
uphill grade? Actually, in real life, it would not run at all; it would stall
before you engaged first gear. The battery could not deliver enough power to
sustain a gas stream to keep the cylinders firing. It would not overcome
friction when the engine idled.

These people should qualify and quantify their assertions. A statement like:
"A car running on power from a battery alone would run for a limited distance
on conventional electrolysis . . ." has no meaning. You might as well talk
about a car powered by an angry squirrel or six D-cell batteries.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 15:54:45 1998
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Inc. W Run 1 results
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Take a look at:

http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/run1.html

You will see a photo description of our apparatus and the results of the
first run.

Executive Summary:  No sign of excess heat.

However, there is certainly more to do on this experiment and your comments
are most welcome.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 17:34:11 1998
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At 05:57 PM 8/18/98 -0400, Jed writes inaccuracy that hopefully
he will clarify:
>Let us examine a photo or video of the car for a moment. Mitch Swartz claimed
>"Mr. Meyer discussed using hydrogen electrolysis to drive automobiles."
No, he
>couldn't have meant ordinary hydrogen electrolysis. There was no storage tank
>on the car. The only source of energy was the battery, and the only way it
>could produce enough energy to make the car move would be to trigger a
>mysterious process that generates far more energy out than the battery puts
>in.

    If he didnt mean electrolysis (and I have one of
his devices on my cabinet here) perhaps Jed will will explain
exactly what Jed claims Meyer was doing.


 =========================================================
   
> What do Allan and Swartz think the battery does, anyway? 

   Did I say that?  Perhaps Jed will explain what
a battery does.   Given my studies of electrochemistry
at MIT with the late Dr. Uhlig, it will be interesting
to understand Jed's parallax view.


  NOTA BENE:
   The issues were Jed's claims that Meyer purportedly said
this his device involved cold fusion.   No answer on that.
Instead, Jed is shifting the focus perhaps given his
inability to defend his comments.

   Mitchell Swartz


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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
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Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 04:43:44 GMT
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On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:54:51 -0500, Scott Little wrote:

>Take a look at:
>
>http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/run1.html
>
>You will see a photo description of our apparatus and the results of the
>first run.
>
>Executive Summary:  No sign of excess heat.
>
>However, there is certainly more to do on this experiment and your comments
>are most welcome.
[snip]
Scott,

Could you explain exactly what the Pout trace represents?

I also have a couple of suggestions concerning the measurement of the
gas development.

1) Try using glass iso teflon, so that no gas is generated if it gets
too hot (perhaps with a silicone plug at the bottom to isolate the
rest of the cathode from the electrolyte).
2) Put a separate electrolysis cell in the current line before the
voltage is measured. E.g. silver electrolysis. This would provide a
nice integrated measure of the total charge supplied by the power
supply, independent of all the peaks and troughs, so that an accurate
check can be made on the amount of gas produced. I.e. it will show
whether or not you are really getting more gas than can be accounted
for by the current.
(You may need to take the charge in the capacitors into account,
depending on exactly where you put it).

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: george varisys.com
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 21:23:39 -0700
Subject: Re: Electron in Crossed E & B Fields 
Message-ID: <19980818.212850.10054.1.tv juno.com>
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Hi George,

I very much appreciate drawing our attention to this.  It is keeping my
Brain busy for awhile thinking about what could be wrong with it.
Perhaps this might be applicabale to an arc in a gas, especially a cold
cathode arc..

Seems that the whole idea boils down to whether the B x V region can act
as a trap
to move electrons in a preferred direction.   Seems like counter charges
would build up in this region that mess up the process, but if it were
pulsed this might not have a chance to occur.

One thing I am convinced of is that James Clerk Maxwell, Percy Williams
Bridgman, and others who believed that the 2nd Law might be circumvented
at the molecular or atomic level were not crackpots.   I think there has
to be a way to cohere fluctuation energy.

Maybe this idea has some bearing on the Pulsed Abnormal Glow Discharge
device of Correa or the Plasma Device of Chernetski ?

Tim

( tv juno.com )

On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:56:39 -0400 "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
writes:
>In searching on a different subject I came across the following at:
>
>http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/9222/ele.htm
>
>>Convert heat to electric energy with static electric and magnetic 
>fields
>>Gerhard Kainz, E-Mail: gerhard.kainz siemens.at
>>Abstract
>>This article should show that static crossed electric and magnetic 
>fields force electrons to move in one direction. This can be used to
produce 
>an electric current. While moving, they convert heat into electric 
>energy, which would contradict the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The first
part 
>of the article shows the principle of the idea. The second part
describes 
>some possible applications.
>-
>This idea seems similar to earlier discussions on vortex of V x B 
>drift.
>-
>Coincidentally, I then ran into the following neat Java simulation
>of the motion of an electron in crossed E and B fields. You can set
>many initial parameters and watch the resulting motion.
>
>http://webphysics.ph.msstate.edu/javamirror/ntnujava/emField/emField.html
>-
>George Holz  - george varisys.com
>Varitronics Systems
>
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 22:13:41 1998
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From: SciBorg8 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 01:01:39 EDT
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Who were you referring to when you said covered in egg? Just checking. I
haven't replied to others peoples comments because everyone wants to get back
talking about free energy. I hope you weren't directing that at me. I just
don't want to continue petty arguing. 

Eric

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 22:27:40 1998
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:Inc W waveforms
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I want to comment on some of the details of the waveforms from his
incadescent tungsten experiment that Scott Little posted at his www
site. These are the waves for full-wave rectified applied voltage.
Although the full-wave voltage complicates power measurements, the
varying voltage and current waves offer us a wealth of information.

The first current wave, for "cold" electrolyte, looks more or less
like current flowing through a linear resistance. Peak current is 4 A.
The W cathode area is about 0.5 cm^2. Therefore, current density peaks
at about 8 A/cm^2. Peak applied voltage is about 50 V.

The second current wave, for a "hot" electrolyte and still 50 V peak,
shows decidedly nonlinear behavior. Current peaks early, at about 5.5
A, and then it decreases rapidly to about 1.3 A. I think this is a
strong polarization effect in the "sheaths" (plasma physics
terminology---my specialty) or "double layers" (electrochemical
terminology) that exist right in front of the electrodes. The sheaths
exhibit both nonlinear resistance and nonlinear capacitance. Scott's
second current wave certainly shows such phenomena. I read a little
about these subjects a couple of years ago, when I was running
electrolytic cold fusion experiments. Unfortunately, I misplaced my
notes, so now I can only give incomplete recollections. In order that
electrons move off the cathode, onto the anode, and on and off of ions
in the electrolyte, one or more chemical reactions have to occur at
each sheath. The reactions consume certain reactant species and leave
other product species. Depleted reactant concentration is replenished
by diffusion of fresh reactant from just outside the sheath. Diffusion
(and also some chemical reactions) is slow. At low current densities
(low A/cm^2) diffusion keeps up with the demand fairly well. However,
the reduced reactant concentration right at the electrode is a reduced
chemical activity, and it causes a voltage drop (called "polarization
drop" by electrochemists) right at the electrode. In more physical
terms, the electric field increases just in front of the electrode in
order to force in the necessary reactant ions. The capacitive effect
arises when a rising externally applied potential initially can draw
lots of charge off of the abundant, but diminishing reactants.
However, they are soon seriously depleted, and fresh reactant only
arives slowly thereafter. An electrolytic sheath driven by an
intermediate frequency sine wave exhibits approximately 45 deg phase
shift. 45 deg is characteristic of a simple diffusive process. In
fact, electrochemists apply a wide range of AC at both low and high
amplitude to "probe" and study the sheath impedance, from which they
can often deduce the chain of reactions occurring. Question anyone:
Does Kellog discuss his electrode effects in view of electrochemical
knowledge, or does he just describe the phenomena?

The third current wave, for about 100 V peak, comes from a sparking
cathode. The capacitive sheath effect is noticeable earlier in time
than in the second wave, and the initial current pulse ends earlier.
The reactants are probably depleted more quickly. The arcs begin near
the voltage and persist until a somewhat lower voltage; this is
qualitatively typical of lossy arcs. Because the arc current appears
to be only about 1 A, the arc probably consists on only a single
cathode arc spot at any given time. It would take high speed
photography to confirm this. Arc spots often move rapidly over the
surface, leaving small craters and tracks (which in themselves are not
proof of NUCLEAR fusion).

The fourth current wave, for about 200 V peak in hot electrolyte (the
"incadescent" mode), is noteworthy for the extended periods (1 to 2
ms) when no current flows, even at peak voltage. I think these are
intervals when the electrolyte is completely isolated from the cathode
by vapor, while the intervals of current flow might be initiated when
electrolyte and electrode make contact at some point. If the electrode
is much hotter than the water boiling point, then it should sustain a
very thin film of vapor, just like the water drop skating on a vapor
film on a hot plate.

All in all, an interesting electrochemical system.

==
Michael J. Schaffer

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 18 22:59:10 1998
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Subject: Re: Electron in Crossed E & B Fields 
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I checked out the url on this subject that George Holz brought to our
attention. There, Gerhard Kainz proposes that a charged particle
moving in static crossed E and B fields can deliver energy. 

Kainz states that a charged particle placed in crossed E & B does not
receive any energy from the static fields. This is not true. It is
well known and a "textbook problem" in plasma physics, accelerator
design and such, that the particle indeed acquires energy from the
electric field. I have done the calculation myself. The average
position of the cross-field-drifting particle is always farther down
the electric potential gradient than when the particle started, unless
the particle source gave it a lot of kinetic energy. In either case,
no free energy. 

When there are lots of charged particles between the electordes, the
motion of particles down the electric gradient is easily measured.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 01:05:32 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: Re: FREE ENERGY
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On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 SciBorg8 aol.com wrote:

> Who were you referring to when you said covered in egg? Just checking. I
> haven't replied to others peoples comments because everyone wants to get back
> talking about free energy. I hope you weren't directing that at me. I just
> don't want to continue petty arguing. 
> 
> Eric
> 
> 
No, not you Eric, you're all right. Just a certain idiot who kept saying 
'wanna be Gordies'. Some 'wanna be' Gordies, Scotties, Datas or Spocks. 
That idiot, with a name like his, I guess, is a wanna be 'stein' or 'man'.

Get my drift?
Remi.

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Subject: Re: FREE ENERGY
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On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, Remi Cornwall wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 SciBorg8 aol.com wrote:
> 
> > Who were you referring to when you said covered in egg? Just checking. I
> > haven't replied to others peoples comments because everyone wants to get back
> > talking about free energy. I hope you weren't directing that at me. I just
> > don't want to continue petty arguing. 
> > 
> > Eric
> > 
> > 
> No, not you Eric, you're all right. Just a certain idiot who kept saying 
> 'wanna be Gordies'. Some 'wanna be' Gordies, Scotties, Datas or Spocks. 
> That idiot, with a name like his, I guess, is a wanna be 'stein' or 'man'.
> 
> Get my drift?
> Remi.
> 
> 

 I get your drift , pal . Must be the same idiot who was wondering
why the name of this thread is still FREE ENERGY after trying to change
it to " off topic - Star Trek " . What an idiot..

 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 01:24:55 1998
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X-Authentication-Warning: sh.diac.com: ekwall2 owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 02:17:31 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: year 2000   500 days
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Memo:FYI

Hi Vo

   For what it's worth TODAY is now 500 days from the year 2000

I'm secured, are WE??

-=se=-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 01:27:09 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: Re: FREE ENERGY
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Peace.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 01:34:30 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: Re: Electron in Crossed E & B Fields 
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Vo,

bit busy, haven't had chance to follow url. To reconstitute useful energy 
from heat you need to sort. Some kind of energy threshold and ordering 
effect.

Not sure about how you'd get an ensemble to cohere with just movement in 
E and B fields. I'm investigating ferromagnetism because the exchange 
interaction cohere's electrons. It is a thermodynamic phase transition 
like the water vapour stuff I had a thing about but have found is tricky 
once I did experiments and the scales fell from my eyes. No, all that 
chemistry stuff is in the realm of interface science which is messy and 
expensive.

Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 02:43:02 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Don't forget Aspden Potter
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Vo,

Also working with mag materials I think I have a solution to Aspden's 
empasse of resistive losses. Will contact him.


This takes energy from zp I understand mechanism must be absorbtion of 
virtual photons of the em field.

This is type 1, ie 'creating energy'. My other stuff is type 2, reusing it.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 03:40:33 1998
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From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: More signal -- less noise!
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Reality Check -- for the past 100 messages, it appears that %32 of the
traffic was from the whole off-topic Free Energy [not the original
question....the other commentary], Lewinski, and Star-Trek drivel. 
Why doesn't this sort of stuff just die or go to usenet where it
belongs?

==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

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At 04:43 AM 8/19/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>Could you explain exactly what the Pout trace represents?

Pout is the measured heat output of the experiment.  It is calculated as
follows:

           Pout = dT * 4.82 * 4.186 * 1.02

where:

dT = corrected delta-T observed in the water flowing thru the heat exhanger
around the cell.  The correction is a minor term (~.2 degrees) that
compensates for the difference between the two thermistors involved and the
nominal heat loss thru the insulated enclosure.

4.82 is the water flow rate in grams/second

4.186 is the specific heat of water in joules/gm*degree

1.02 is a correction for the less-than-perfect heat recovery of the heat
exchanger.  This factor has remained essentially constant over a wide
variety of experiment sizes and shapes, each with its own insulation system.

>I also have a couple of suggestions concerning the measurement of the
>gas development.

>1) Try using glass iso teflon...

>2) Put a separate electrolysis cell in the current line before the
>voltage is measured. E.g. silver electrolysis...

I like both of these suggestions.  We'll see, perhaps on run 3, if glass
can survive the thermal shock of this environment.

There's a product called Indachron (I think) that totalizes current via
some kind of electrolysis. I'll look into it.  Meanwhile, exactly what
would you use for such a cell? How would you "read" it?...weigh the cathode
before and after?


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

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At 10:20 PM 8/18/98 -0700, Michael Schaffer wrote:

>I want to comment on some of the details of the waveforms...

<snip a very nice description of the probable cause of the rather
non-linear current waveforms>

>...If the electrode
>is much hotter than the water boiling point, then it should sustain a
>very thin film of vapor, just like the water drop skating on a vapor
>film on a hot plate.

Indeed it is much hotter.  It is clearly evident that the solid W rod is
incandescent because of its temperature.  Depending upon the input power,
the end of the rod can be made to glow dull red up to orange-white.  I
think that the gas sheath is the highest impedance portion of the entire
circuit, thus most of the voltage drop occurs across the sheath, thus most
of the input power is dissipated in the sheath region and ends up heating
the rod.

The whole thing looks rather fantastic during operation.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

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At 03:20 AM 8/19/98 -0700, Anton Rager wrote:
>
>Reality Check -- for the past 100 messages, it appears that %32 of the
>traffic was...off-topic

I agree with Anton.  Vortex is a community and it's a natural human trait
to want to share ANYTHING that's interesting with your friends but I hereby
appeal to all of you to RESIST this temptation.  Use OTHER channels to
discuss other matters.  Keep Vortex pure so it can continue to serve its
very useful purpose: 
discussion of experimental results pertaining to "excess energy" devices.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Meyer/Mallove/Rothwell
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Direct quotes from Meyer's Newsletters:

Issue #3, winter/spring 86/87:

"we can drive a car across the United States on only a handful of water for
fuel"

"the fuel cell can break down water molecules into component parts,
hydrogen and oxygen gases, under controlled technical steps, thus creating
a release of energy from the atom.  The energy released by the hydrogen and
oxygen atoms under this controlled state can be utilized to replace nuclear
power."

Issue #4, winter/spring 87/88:

"The Water Fuel Cell, which can control energy released from atoms of water
molecules, will eliminate our need for fossil fuels for energy and will
affect our lives in many ways.  Cars, trucks, planes, ships, and other
transportation forms will run economically on minimal amounts of water.
We'll heat our homes and produce electricity with a Water Fuel Cell system.
 The military will use the Water Fuel Cell to fly its planes, operate its
tanks, and power rockets.  Industry will use the system in manufacturing,
and you'll even find it in outer space providing the fuel to operate manned
space stations of the future."

"the power yield per gallon of water exceeds 44,000 barrels of oil"

Issue #9, winter/spring 92:

"Running a car on water is now several steps closer to reality than it was
this time last year."

The next quote is not directly related to the O-Uness of Meyer's thing but
clearly vital to those wishing to replicate Meyer's work:

"He also had to design an update of the laser distributor with a two stage
signaling control and stage the timing of the high resonant pulse frequency
voltage potential to be applied across the water in the Water Fuel
Injectors that replaces standard spark plugs.  This not only runs the car,
but gives it acceleration under controlled means."



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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Message-ID: <35DAD04E.46A4A819 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:17:02 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: year 2000   500 days
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.980819021425.6364A-100000 sh.diac.com>
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Steve Ekwall wrote:
> 
> Memo:FYI
> 
> Hi Vo
> 
>    For what it's worth TODAY is now 500 days from the year 2000
> 
> I'm secured, are WE??
> 
> -=se=-


Thanks lot, I had waiting just this day, for long time but forgoten, I had also a counter on my homepage (at geocities) pointing the same number today. I will be a good idea to celebrate it, at evening. 


Used script code is

<P><B>
Countdown to December 31,1999: 
<FONT COLOR="#FFFFFF"><FONT SIZE=+2><I>
<SCRIPT>
var t=new Date()
document.write(10958-Math.ceil(t.getTime()/86400000))
</SCRIPT>
</I></FONT> days
</FONT></B></P>

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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Subject: Re: Meyer car observations
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To: Vortex

Mitchell Swartz writes:

     If he [Meyer] didnt mean electrolysis (and I have one of his devices on
     my cabinet here) perhaps Jed will will explain exactly what Jed claims
     Meyer was doing.

Sorry Mitch, I have no idea what he meant or what he was doing. All I know is
that he claimed much more energy came out of the process than he put in. He
said that explicitly, although you deny it, and even if he had not said it,
the design of the car speaks louder than words. There is no fuel tank on it
and there are no sources of energy aside from the battery, so it must be an
o-u machine -- or a fake.

Anyway, Scott Little was kind enough to post quotes from Meyer, so now we know
it wasn't electrolysis. The car ran thanks to "controlled technical steps"
that created "a release of energy from the atom."  And, uh . . .  "The energy
released by the hydrogen and oxygen atoms under this controlled state can be
utilized to replace nuclear power." That's clear as mud, isn't it? I have no
idea what it means. Apologists for Meyer are welcome to explain.

I asked what Allan and Swartz think of the battery, and how it could make the
car move. Swartz responds:

     Did I say that?

No, you didn't, but I pointed out that the battery is the only source of
energy. I asked if the battery does not power the car, what does?
Electrolysis? How would that work? Answer the question, Mitch! I have provided
step-by-step quantitative reasons why the car must be over-unity or fake. You
disagree. You say it *isn't* o-u. Okay, you should refute my arguments.


     Perhaps Jed will explain what a battery does.   Given my studies of
     electrochemistry at MIT with the late Dr. Uhlig, it will be interesting
     to understand Jed's parallax view.

Since you know so damn much about the subject you should address the issues
and explain why you say the car is not o-u. How would it work in that case?
What other source of conventional energy is on board the car? Do you see a
fuel tank? Did the late Dr. Uhlig explain how to drive a car with on board
electrolysis without storing electrolysis gases? And what the hell is a
parallax view?


     NOTA BENE:
     The issues were Jed's claims that Meyer purportedly said this his device
     involved cold fusion.

I never claimed that! Meyer said his device is over-unity. He said it creates
energy out of water. He said he could drive across the country with a handful
of water for fuel. I have no idea whether he said it was cold fusion or not.
If the device is real, I have no idea whether it has any connection with cold
fusion. Also, what does NOTA BENE mean? Speak English! Or I'll start
responding in Japanese and neither of us will understand what the other is
saying.


     No answer on that. Instead, Jed is shifting the focus perhaps given his
     inability to defend his comments.

That's a stupid ad hominem attack. I defended my comments here step by step,
in quantitative detail. I described why a battery cannot make the car go, and
I said that as far as I know there is no other source of conventional energy
on the car. Admittedly, my analysis of batteries and ICE was simple minded,
grade-school mechanics, but I think it was correct. If Mitch disagrees he
should point out where I have made a technical error in my analysis instead of
attacking me personally. Even though he studied at  MIT under Professor Uhlig,
I think Mitch should condescend to my level for a moment, to show where I made
a mistake. He should explain how you run a car on electrolysis with no fuel
tank. Mitch has much in common with the anti-CF skeptics who refuse to discuss
or debate specific, technical points. I say to them, "look at the Pons and
Fleischmann video; it shows electrolysis is off." They refuse to look at
actual evidence or read papers. Simple observations of bubbles on an anode are
beneath their dignity. They will only discuss abstruse nuclear theory. I tell
Mitch, "look at the car, it has no fuel tank; it cannot be, as you claim, an
experiment in using conventional electrolysis gases to drive a car." Instead
of addressing that simple observation, he changes the subject & confuses the
issue, dragging in his academic qualifications (instead of USING his academic
knowledge to address the issues!), or he says I claimed Meyer talked about
cold fusion, or I have not defended my comments, or what-have-you.

- Jed

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From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
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Scott,

Nice setup. Calorimetry looks good. The split electrical filtering is an
especially good idea, because it lets you measure the electrical power
input on much smoother waves.

However, I didn't see any means to condense water vapor and catch its heat
value inside the calorimeter envelope. Can you clarify, please?

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics,  PO Box 85608,  San Diego CA 92186-5608,  USA
Telephone    Voice:   619-455-2841         Fax:   619-455-4156


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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
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To:  Vortex

In going over the Hypothesis that a String-Circle Electron-Proton/Deuteron
can surround the Hydrogen and oscillate in Energy/Radius
0.511 Mev/2.81E-15 meters to 27.2 ev/5.29E-11 meters, with a tunneling
window of 1.52E-16 seconds, then if a Proton or Deuteron is pushed into the
electron cloud of a heavy atom,like Tungsten, what would one expect to
happen with
this "reverse tunneling" Particle?    :-)

Regards,     Frederick



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At 07:51 8/19/98 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote:

>Nice setup. Calorimetry looks good. The split electrical filtering is an
>especially good idea, because it lets you measure the electrical power
>input on much smoother waves.

Thanks, Mike. We're going one better on Run2 with a 1 ohm R located inside
the calorimeter enclosure in series with the incoming power.  The 400 mfd C
is still in there right across the cell.  Thus we have an RC filter feeding
the cell with a time constant of .4 msec which should eliminate the MHz
stuff from the power input lines.  The R is strapped to the Cu tubing so
it's dissipation will be measured by the calorimeter.  It's small anyway,
only about 1-2 watts.

It should be noted that this arrangement does not "soften" the discharges
in the cell.

>However, I didn't see any means to condense water vapor and catch its heat
>value inside the calorimeter envelope. Can you clarify, please?

Presently, the cell is vented thru a small rubber tube that leads out
through the calorimeter enclosure walls.  We ran the exiting gases thru a
cold trap and then into the inverted-graduated-cylinder flow apparatus.
Surprisingly there was very little water in the trap after yesterday's run
(much less than 1 gram).  As mentioned in the web report, the exiting H2 &
O2 don't carry very much energy away...only ~1-2 watts.  That's because the
current is only about 1 amp in this experiment.

Conditions are so violent inside the cell that I can't imagine my catalyst
recombiner pellets surviving.  I think they'd get wet and quit working
immediately.  The present approach is not perfect but I am measuring the
gas flow and taking it into account.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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   At 10:45 AM 8/19/98 -0400, Jed wrote:

>     If he [Meyer] didnt mean electrolysis (and I have one of his devices on
>     my cabinet here) perhaps Jed will will explain exactly what Jed claims
>     Meyer was doing.
>
>Sorry Mitch, I have no idea what he meant or what he was doing.


 Courtesy of Scott Little.  [ Thanks, Scott. ]

Issue #3, winter/spring 86/87:
"we can drive a car across the United States on only a handful of water for
fuel"
"the fuel cell can break down water molecules into component parts,
hydrogen and oxygen gases, ..."

   That, Jed, is known as electrolysis.   The target question
is whether that electrolysis can be performed at a higher
rate, efficiency, or lower energy than presently achieved.


  ============================================================


>I asked what Allan and Swartz think of the battery, and how it could make the
>car move. Swartz responds:
>
>     Did I say that?
>
>No, you didn't, but I pointed out that the battery is the only source of
>energy. I asked if the battery does not power the car, what does?
>Electrolysis? How would that work? Answer the question, Mitch!


   THAT is the story IE, or Jed, should have reported upon, rather than
what unfortunately appears to be a stabbing the reputation of a 
recently deceased investigator.

  ============================================================

> I have provided
>step-by-step quantitative reasons why the car must be over-unity or fake. You
>disagree. You say it *isn't* o-u. Okay, you should refute my arguments.

    Jed is incorrect.   What was requested was where Jed purported
the late Mr. Meyer explicitly claimed "over-unity", or "cf".  
The latter seems clear that he did not.  The former?   Still waiting.

  ============================================================


>     Perhaps Jed will explain what a battery does.   Given my studies of
>     electrochemistry at MIT with the late Dr. Uhlig, it will be interesting
>     to understand Jed's parallax view.
>
>Since you know so damn much about the subject you should address the issues
>and explain why you say the car is not o-u. How would it work in that case?
>....   And what the hell is a  parallax view?


       Jed purported over-unity and an explicit quote was requested given
the statement which he repeats even to this thread.  The quote was apparently
reasonably requested by Mr. Allan.

        Parallax?  That is an English word, if memory serves the name
of movie too, and it is in Webster's dictionary which will certainly
give the scholarly its denotation.


  ============================================================


>     The issues were Jed's claims that Meyer purportedly said this his device
>     involved cold fusion.
>
>I never claimed that! Meyer said his device is over-unity. 


    OK   Where?   
    

  ============================================================


>Also, what does NOTA BENE mean? Speak English! Or I'll start
>responding in Japanese and neither of us will understand what the other is
>saying.

    It is Latin.

    Autant des hommes.  Autant d'avis.


  ============================================================


>     No answer on that. Instead, Jed is shifting the focus perhaps given his
>     inability to defend his comments.
>
>That's a stupid ad hominem attack. 

    No, is was an observation.   I will refrain from an ad hominem
attack which would be something like ....

  "Instead, Jed the [zip] is  [zip] shifting the focus perhaps given his
     [zip] inability to defend his  [zip] comments.

   Best wishes.

     Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 09:50:35 1998
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Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:42:46 -0400
From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Meyer/Mallove/Rothwell
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Referring to John Allan's msg of 18 Aug.

I've just returned from a 4 weeks tour of England and Scotland so am
somewhat out of touch.  I have not seen the Jane Warren article.

However I feel it necessary to add to the responses from Jed and others,
and try, once again, to set out the facts as I know them regarding the
Stanley Meyer affair.

Regarding the aborted seminar:

Meyer was to be the main speaker.  The only other speaker listed on my
invitation was The Rt Rev Hugh Montefiore (Hon Assistant Bishop, Diocese of
Southwark; Chairman of Friends of the Earth Trust etc.).

During my conversations with the organisers (The Maritime Foundation) I
discovered that they were ignorant of the recent US court decision
regarding Meyer, and when they were appraised of that information they
decided to meet with Meyer as soon as he arrived in England to ask him why
he had not informed them of his conviction of "egregious fraud", and to
give him an opportunity to clear himself of that indictment.

I was invited to attend that meeting along with a number of other of the
organisers (as I had been closely in touch with Admiral Sir Anthony
Griffin, who was the original sponsor of the seminar, and who had just
died).

Meyer and his colleagues were asked to explain why he had not declared his
conviction for fraud, but all we got was his usual sales pitch and
techno-waffle.  He failed to persuade any of the committee of his honesty,
but even then he was given a chance to clear his name by demonstrating his
devices with independent scientific measurement of their efficiency.  If he
succeeded in this, then he would be invited again to speak to a similar
audience as was arranged for this seminar.

Meyer refused to do this, but he promised to return in the near future with
a boat, powered by a Diesel engine using his W F Cell which he would drive
up and down the River Thames.  His grounds for refusing to an independent
monitoring of the cell was that he was bound by a secrecy clause of the USA
Patent Office which he said prevented him from showing his devices to any
3rd party.

I took legal advice from USA lawyers via my UK people, and this secrecy
limitation has to be accompanied by a Certificate from the Patent Office
which states the details of the limitations imposed.  Non of the mountains
of documentation supplied by Meyer ever contained any such Certificates. 
In any case the fact of the publication of his Patents signifies that the
details are in the public domain.

In response to this the committee agreed to issue a statement POSTPONING
the seminar to a time to be decided, and the wording of that statement was
agreed with Meyer before it was published.

Meyer agreed to this, but he never made any attempt to return with his
boat.

The only response I am aware of is a threat of legal action from Meyer for
what he described effectively as defamation.

>> I am not too sure that we can accept the court legal findings reliable. 

We can certainly not accept it scientific findings <<

We have to accept the findings of a court until a higher court has
overturned them.  I could not trace any official attempt by Meyer to apply
for an appeal to a higher court, and I chased several offices for weeks to
try to find something.  Meyer may have written to someone complaining about
the conduct of the trial, but that does not constitute an "Appeal"
application.

As to the "Science" at the trial - I'm inclined to agree that it was a
farce.  However, the considered opinion of the Judge was probably based on
the fact that here were two potential Distributors who had been sold a
false bill of goods.  There was no product for them to "Distribute", and
there was very little likelihood of there ever being a commercial product
within a reasonable time.

>> nor did Meyer take another investor for £250,000 as Mr Norman Horwood
stated early. <<

My source was the guy who lost the £250,000 as his cost in progressing a
development project which Meyer failed to complete after the structure was
sent to Meyer for the addition of his "black box".  Meyer demanded more
cash in order to complete the job, but this was refused until a working
product was forthcoming.  At that point the funding was withdrawn - and
quite right too IMHO.

>> I must say that Admiral Griffin never lost his enthusiasm for Meyer even
on his death bed despite the aspertions made to the effect he did. <<

That might well be so, especially as the court conviction was withheld from
him.  As to his death-bed thoughts - I am sure John Allan was not present
at that scene.

>> The Admiral was a Naval expert in hydrogen technology. <<

The Admiral was an expert navigator.

>> But then it was also misleading to separately assign the title of
engineer to scientific hobbyist Messers Tinsley and Horwood in that article
with out naming them. <<

I fail to see what John Allan is getting at here.  I am a professional
Engineer, now retired.

>> To suggest that their failure to replicate patents meant anything, or to

suggest patent include all proprietary information is laughable.  I am 
glad that this is something Norman agrees with me on <<

Hang on a bit!!!

I might agree that failure to replicate a design via a Patent Spec. is no
proof of the workability of the invention.  However I have never seen any
reliable report of anyone replication the WFC.  I tried very hard and long
to work from Meyer's several Patents to make a cell which generated H and O
in quantities in excess of the normal quantities by electrolysis without
success.  I also know of others who have built cells to Meyer's design and
tried very hard to replicate Meyer's reported performance and also failed.

A Patent which does not include all the necessary information to enable one
versed in the art to replicate the device is not a valid Patent.

>> I have to say that on the basis of my own and others experience, I found
Stan open, generous and reasonable. <<

Did you invest substantial cash in his schemes?  If not, then you would
find him open generous and reasonable.   Did you ever see an instrument
measuring the power input to and the gas output from any of Meyer's cells
simultaneously? Not an unreasonable request I would suggest. 

>> Meyer never made statement to the effect of over-unity. <<

Agreed - All he claimed was that his system was far more efficient than DC
electrolysis

>> To wait until the individual is dead and his company in a state of flux 
before saying such things and aiming a poisoned barb at the mind of
professionals and the uninformed public is cowardly. <<

As Jed has said - nothing being said now has not already been said many
times over the past few years.  I have written to Meyer several times
offering investment cash in return for independent verification of his
claims.  I never had a reply, not even a thanks but no thanks.

>> I do wish 
the the Infinite Energy team had not interfered where they had no 
business because perhaps if they did not we would know one or another by 
know what was really going on in that cell.  I feel that the House of 
Lords seminar and highly level establishmentary attention would have 
given Meyer the security and attention that he need to come out about 
his work. <<

The IE team only came into the seminar picture after it was postponed.  It
was my conversation with the organisers which triggered their suspicions
which they confirmed themselves.

It is my opinion that Meyer would never have come clean while he could get
cash out of his suckers.  He had been promising commercial production of
the ICE conversion kits for years from his "production plant" which did not
exist, except in his sales pitch.

>> A mature and professional handling of the matter would have created an 
atmosphere where such subjects could be discussed rationally opening the 
door to others such as cold fusion. <<

It was not possible to have a rational conversation with Meyer.  He always
ranted on with his standard sales routine whatever anyone else said.

>> In opposition to an erroneous statement Norman 
Horwood made, the Admiral was not motivated by environmentalism, he was 
engaged in marrying Meyer off the Military first and UK plc second. <<

Admiral Griffin personally told me that he was primarily concerned with the
British navy, but he was also responsible for introducing Meyer to a number
of engine manufacturers.  He also expressed his concern for the benefit to
the environment which would derive from the use of Hydrogen as the main
energy source.

>> The Admiral willfully opposed an initially useful or civilian 
application. <<

Not true from what he was doing with several companies on behalf of Meyer.

>> What confounds me most is that as so many of his supporters had such
obvious access to national and international confidentialities, could they
all have acted without checking their sources? <<

All his initial supporters pulled out after having a taste of Meyer. 
Obviously, the first impression gained from Meyer's 'demos' was positive
and attractive.  Unfortunately, the follow-up always met with roadblocks
from Meyer when the time came to add his gizmo - I know of no application
which has worked outside his garage/workshop.

According to Admiral Griffin Meyer had millions of $$$ from a Japanese
source to fund his production facility.  This was alluded to after Meyer's
death by the local press, but we are still waiting for the mountain to give
birth - up to now its been a mouse.

>> On a human note, I would like to caution again the individuals who had 
such insensitivity to work to place such dubious smear articles in our 
national press that would have caused injury and embarrassment to the 
widow and family of Admiral Griffin following his untimely death and 
during their period of bereavement. <<

If Meyer had not died nothing would have appeared in the press.  It is most
unfortunate for the Griffin family that the press picked up the Meyer junk
so soon after the Admiral's death.  There was no way to suppress that
story.

I have reported facts not opinions.  The Meyer WFC may one day be
validated, if so then many people will have egg on their faces, but Meyer
was his own worst enemy and has only himself to blame for the adverse
reaction of many initially well-wishers who tried to test his system - me
included.

Norman Horwood.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 10:14:00 1998
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
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Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Potential Barrier for incandescent W?
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:57:39 -0600
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To: Vortex

The coulomb repulsion or Potential Barrier:

E = Z1*Z2*q^2/R (ev or joules) for Uranium
(Z = 92) is 17.0 Mev for a Proton (Z = 1). For
Neon (Z = 10) the Potential Barrier for the proton is about 4.0 Mev.  R for
U is 7.78E-15 meters or 7.78 Fermi. R for Neon is 3.6 Fermi.

Assuming 5.0 Fermi for Tungsten, it would take
about 21.3 Mev for a Proton to surmount the Potential Barrier and effect
nuclear reactions.

OTOH, if the Proton (or Deuteron)is "Neutralized" by an electron as in the
known Proton-Electron-Proton nuclear reactions..... or a slow proton with
momentum mv is neutralized in the electron cloud around Tungsten or
Palladium, etc.

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 10:14:32 1998
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Subject: RE: Inc. W Run 1 results
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:08:15 -0700
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Scott
	Put a small capacitor, such as 0.1 ufd across the large ones. Large
caps are not much good at removing RF. The rest of your setup looks great.
The 1 ohm resistor will change somewhat with heating of course, and the
several amps you're using will heat it up quite a bit. I^2R, and use a large
safety factor in your wattage rating of the Resistor. I would monitor both
the voltage and current waveforms with a scope as you do the experiments,
just to be sure of what is going on there. The voltage will be almost a
sawtooth waveform, with a period of 1/120 if you're using a full wave
rectifier. You could use the short time scales of the scope to look at the
details of the arcing pulses., but you would have to remove the lowpass
filtering to do this. I suspect if anything fancy(such as OU) is happening,
it will be in the arcing, not in the steady state waveform.
good luck
Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Scott Little[SMTP:little eden.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Wednesday, August 19, 1998 8:28 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: Inc. W Run 1 results
> 
> At 07:51 8/19/98 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote:
> 
> >Nice setup. Calorimetry looks good. The split electrical filtering is an
> >especially good idea, because it lets you measure the electrical power
> >input on much smoother waves.
> 
> Thanks, Mike. We're going one better on Run2 with a 1 ohm R located inside
> the calorimeter enclosure in series with the incoming power.  The 400 mfd
> C
> is still in there right across the cell.  Thus we have an RC filter
> feeding
> the cell with a time constant of .4 msec which should eliminate the MHz
> stuff from the power input lines.  The R is strapped to the Cu tubing so
> it's dissipation will be measured by the calorimeter.  It's small anyway,
> only about 1-2 watts.
> 
> It should be noted that this arrangement does not "soften" the discharges
> in the cell.
> 
> >However, I didn't see any means to condense water vapor and catch its
> heat
> >value inside the calorimeter envelope. Can you clarify, please?
> 
> Presently, the cell is vented thru a small rubber tube that leads out
> through the calorimeter enclosure walls.  We ran the exiting gases thru a
> cold trap and then into the inverted-graduated-cylinder flow apparatus.
> Surprisingly there was very little water in the trap after yesterday's run
> (much less than 1 gram).  As mentioned in the web report, the exiting H2 &
> O2 don't carry very much energy away...only ~1-2 watts.  That's because
> the
> current is only about 1 amp in this experiment.
> 
> Conditions are so violent inside the cell that I can't imagine my catalyst
> recombiner pellets surviving.  I think they'd get wet and quit working
> immediately.  The present approach is not perfect but I am measuring the
> gas flow and taking it into account.
> 
> 
> 
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 10:19:28 1998
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Oh ok. Sorry.

Eric

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 10:25:15 1998
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Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:22:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: More signal -- less noise!
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On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, Scott Little wrote:

> At 03:20 AM 8/19/98 -0700, Anton Rager wrote:
> >
> >Reality Check -- for the past 100 messages, it appears that %32 of the
> >traffic was...off-topic
> 
> I agree with Anton.  Vortex is a community and it's a natural human trait
> to want to share ANYTHING that's interesting with your friends but I hereby
> appeal to all of you to RESIST this temptation.  Use OTHER channels to
> discuss other matters.  Keep Vortex pure so it can continue to serve its
> very useful purpose: 
> discussion of experimental results pertaining to "excess energy" devices.


Well if this list is supposedly limited to just that then I guess
everything I posted about light pulse experiments is just noise too.

And if I have to just shut up everytime Remi makes some disgusting slur
associating my name with the Lewinski matter then we just may as turn the
whole thing over to the sleaze faction. If that be the case then I'm outa
here.

Bye . unsubscribing .

Jim Ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 10:36:20 1998
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Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:30:21 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Electron in Crossed E & B Fields
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In reference to the Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:56:39 -0400 George Holz posting,
the relevant point is that in thermodynamic equilibrium there is no current
resulting from charged particles in crossed E & B fields.  The two steps in
confirming this fact are:

 1.  Impose thermodynamic equilibrium

 2.  Add in the effect of the magnetization current.

Number 1 is done by imposing a Boltzmann distribution for the charged
particle density

  n = n0 exp(- q U/kT)

where n is the charged particle density, n0 is the density at zero
potential, q is the charge, U is the electrostatic potential, k is
Boltzmann's constant and T is the temperature.
  Number 2 is done by setting the electric current to:

  J = n q V + curl M

with J the current density, V the average drift velocity, and M the
magnetization.  If one does these two steps and then puts in the standard
form for the drift, V, the result is always a zero current density.
  Now this result holds for the well known lowest order drift equations as
well as for the mostly unknown higher order corrections.  There is a story
about these higher order drift equations.  Only one investigator, by the
name of Keith Cole, was doing any work on calculating the more accurate
drift equations back in the 70's.  He was a professor in Australia but
would come on occasion to Goddard on sabbatical.  He would often complain
that he had derived correct additional terms for the drift equations but
that no one believed them and he could not get them published.
  I knew that the standard drift equations always gave zero current in
thermodynamic equilibrium in accord with the second law.  I thought that
Dr. Cole's corrected drift equations would also give the same result of
zero current.  So I tried it and it worked out as expected.  My result was
that the Cole drift equations were actually required in order to satisfy
the second law.  When I told him of my result he was very pleased and asked
me to join with him in his battle to get his new result accepted.
  Now Keith has published his results but I don't think they are too well
accepted.  It might be a good time to publish my therodynamic argument.  In
any event the bottom line is that taking the most accurate equation for
charged particle drift and calculating the current gives a zero result in
equilibrium.  Of course non-equilibrium dynamics is a different story and
therein is my interest.
  The best reference for the Cole drift equations is:

  Dilectric currents in a plasma, K. D. Cole, Phys. Plasmas 3 (7)
2717-2724, July 1996.

He defines "dielectric current" as the current in the direction of E cross
B so the subject of the paper is really E cross B currents in a plasma.

Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 11:06:01 1998
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Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> Well if this list is supposedly limited to just that then I guess
> everything I posted about light pulse experiments is just noise too.

According to the Votex-L guidelines, what you posted was completely on
topic. I wouldn't unsubscribe just yet Jim.

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 11:54:56 1998
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Frederick J Sparber wrote:
> 
> To: Vortex
> 
> The coulomb repulsion or Potential Barrier:
> 
<etc>


Hi Fred,

I've been lurking a few months here on vortex.  It's very interesting. 
I keep wondering, whenever I see your Experiment-A-Day (you should make
a daily calender ;) posts,  do you post this stuff hoping others will
carry out your experiments?  Do you ever try out your own ideas?  It
seems like you're one of the few people on this list that actually
contributes constructive stuff.

Warm regards,
Terren

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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Potential Barrier for incandescent W?
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-----Original Message-----
From: Terren Suydam <terren ariel.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: Potential Barrier for incandescent W?

Thank you for the kind words, Terren. I only do this mostly for the mental
exercise
and hopefully to keep Scott Little busy.   :-)

Except for keeping the grandkid's trains supplied with 9 volts worth of "C"
batteries and the rocket launches safe, I've hung up my spurs on lab work.
Over 45 years of R&D is about a full plate. Besides everything is so damn
small these days I can't even do the pin-out of an op-amp.  :-)

Best,  Frederick


>Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>>
>> To: Vortex
>>
>> The coulomb repulsion or Potential Barrier:
>>
><etc>
>
>
>Hi Fred,
>
>I've been lurking a few months here on vortex.  It's very interesting.
>I keep wondering, whenever I see your Experiment-A-Day (you should make
>a daily calender ;) posts,  do you post this stuff hoping others will
>carry out your experiments?  Do you ever try out your own ideas?  It
>seems like you're one of the few people on this list that actually
>contributes constructive stuff.
>
>Warm regards,
>Terren
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 13:13:14 1998
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Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:03:25 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Thermophotovoltaics
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To: Vortex

There is an interesting article in this month's Sci. Am.:

T. Coutts and M. Fitzgerald, "Thermophotovoltaics," Scientific American,
September 1998, p. 90

Abstract: "Semiconductors that convert radiant heat to electricity may prove
suitable for lighting remote villages or powering automobiles."

These devices are similar to photovoltaics, except they convert infrared
radiant heat from fire into electricity. Power density is much better than
terrestrial photovoltaics, and the devices can be used at any time of day or
night. The article describes a commercial prototype 30 watt propane device
that employs "48 gallium antimonide cells, connected in series." The device
doubles as a room heater. In other words, much of the waste heat goes into the
room; it is a cogenerator. The device has a small chimney to vent combustion
gases. I think it is designed for boats, yachts and other marine apps. I wish
the article described the conversion efficiency in a little more detail. An
experimental car at Western Washington University is mentioned.

Something like a thermophotovoltaic would be good for small, distributed CF
generators practical. Large generators could use conventional steam turbine
conversion. I assume someone will find a way to make high temperature CF work.
The thermophotovoltaics require high temperatures, above 1000 deg C, whereas
steam technology would be okay anywhere about 200 deg C, although 300 to 500
deg C would be better.

- Jed

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Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:03:15 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Meyer car observations
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To: Vortex

Scott Little quoted Meyer:

     Issue #3, winter/spring 86/87:
     "we can drive a car across the United States on only a handful of water
     for fuel" "the fuel cell can break down water molecules into component
     parts, hydrogen and oxygen gases, ..."

Mitchell Swartz says:

     That, Jed, is known as electrolysis.   The target question is whether
     that electrolysis can be performed at a higher rate, efficiency, or
     lower energy than presently achieved.

NO IT IS NOT ELECTROLYSIS!!!! It can't be! That's absurd. That would violate
the conservation of energy. Even if electrolysis was 100% efficient (which is
impossible) the car would not move an inch. Electrolysis does not add or
subtract energy to the system. You cannot perform electrolysis in a car and
use the output to move the car, any more than you pull yourself to the moon by
tugging at your own bootstraps.

You take that "handful of water" and electrolyze it at 100% efficiency. That
means you transfer X joules of energy from the battery to the water. Then you
burn the gas in the motor you get back exactly X joules of energy. There can
be NO NET GAIN. This is so obvious, it is so elementary, that I cannot
understand what prompted this response. What does efficiency have to do with
it?!? Are you saying the efficiency is 300%?!? That's called "over-unity" and
it would be the only way the car could move.

I do not understand why an educated PhD scientist would make such statements.
How can "higher rates" or "efficiency" enter the equation? This response and
the rest of Swartz's arguments make zero sense to me. If anyone else on this
forum understands what he is getting at, please explain it to me.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: Meyer car observations
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At 20:25 8/18/98 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>    If he didnt mean electrolysis (and I have one of
>his devices on my cabinet here) perhaps Jed will will explain
>exactly what Jed claims Meyer was doing.

Pardon me for noticing, but it appears that you may know more about Meyer's
work than the rest of us put together.  I've got some of his newsletters
but you have one of his devices!  Why don't we drop this "who said what"
game and give you the floor so you can tell us what Meyer's device actually
does.

Scott

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At 12:42 PM 8/19/98 -0400, Norman Horwood wrote:

>>> Meyer never made statement to the effect of over-unity. <<
>
>Agreed - All he claimed was that his system was far more efficient than DC
>electrolysis
>

   Thank you.

      Mitchell Swartz


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Subject: Re: Meyer car observations
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At 04:03 PM 8/19/98 -0400, Jed wrote:

>Scott Little quoted Meyer:
>     Issue #3, winter/spring 86/87:
>     "we can drive a car across the United States on only a handful of water
>     for fuel" "the fuel cell can break down water molecules into component
>     parts, hydrogen and oxygen gases, ..."
>
>Mitchell Swartz says:
>     That, Jed, is known as electrolysis.   The target question is whether
>     that electrolysis can be performed at a higher rate, efficiency, or
>     lower energy than presently achieved.
>
>NO IT IS NOT ELECTROLYSIS!!!! It can't be! That's absurd. That would violate
>the conservation of energy.


   First it is electrolysis of water.

   Second, regarding Jed's statement. 

   Prove it.   Prove that it would violate
the conservation of energy.
 
 =================================================

>You take that "handful of water" and electrolyze it at 100% efficiency. That
>means you transfer X joules of energy from the battery to the water. Then you
>burn the gas in the motor you get back exactly X joules of energy. There can
>be NO NET GAIN. This is so obvious, it is so elementary, that I cannot
>understand what prompted this response.


   Perhaps that is why Meyer never mentioned overunity.

   NOTA BENE: This is consistent with Norman Horwood who wrote:
>>> re: Meyer never made statement to the effect of over-unity. <<
  "Agreed - All he claimed was that his system was far more efficient than DC
   electrolysis"


 =================================================

>How can "higher rates" or "efficiency" enter the equation? 

  Do you know what hydrogen and oxygen overvoltage are?
   Competitive reactions, concentration polarization, IR 
polarization?

     Mitchell Swartz


 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 13:50:01 1998
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Electron in Crossed E & B Fields 
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:50:04 -0400
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Tim Vaughn wrote:

>
>Seems that the whole idea boils down to whether the B x V region can act
>as a trap
>to move electrons in a preferred direction.   Seems like counter charges
>would build up in this region that mess up the process, but if it were
>pulsed this might not have a chance to occur.
>
I'm not sure that this is a problem, DC fields can be maintained by
metal electrodes when the current is low enough to avoid space
charge formation. The charge transported would of course have to be 
removed by a load to prevent the build up of a counter field opposing
the charge transport.
-
>One thing I am convinced of is that James Clerk Maxwell, Percy Williams
>Bridgman, and others who believed that the 2nd Law might be circumvented
>at the molecular or atomic level were not crackpots.   I think there has
>to be a way to cohere fluctuation energy.
>
I didn't know that Maxwell and Bridgman believed that the 2nd law could
be circumvented. It's nice to know that I'm not alone in my delusions.
Thanks Tim.
-
Michael Schaffer wrote:
>Kainz states that a charged particle placed in crossed E & B does not.
>receive any energy from the static fields. This is not true. It is
>well known and a "textbook problem" in plasma physics, accelerator
>design and such, that the particle indeed acquires energy from the
>electric field. I have done the calculation myself. The average
>position of the cross-field-drifting particle is always farther down
>the electric potential gradient than when the particle started, unless
>the particle source gave it a lot of kinetic energy. In either case,
>no free energy. 
>
I think you are right on this point Michael, energy is definitely
input from the electric field. I also don't see any systematic
reduction in particle velocity that could correspond to the
conversion of heat to electrical energy. 
Thanks for the comments, Michael.
-
Remi Cornwall wrote:
>Not sure about how you'd get an ensemble to cohere with just movement in 
>E and B fields. I'm investigating ferromagnetism because the exchange 
>interaction cohere's electrons. It is a thermodynamic phase transition 
>like the water vapour stuff I had a thing about but have found is tricky 
>once I did experiments and the scales fell from my eyes.
>
The grass is always greener, but basically I agree with your comment
about the potential of the magnetic phase transition to convert
thermal into electrical energy. About 1 year and 20 ideas with perhaps
5 variations of each and many experiments later, it has become clear 
that the cyclic nature of the conversion is a formidable barrier to 
the construction of useful devices. I remain convinced, however, that 
such devices are possible and some of the approaches investigated
remain promising but as yet not self powered.
Good luck Remi.
-
Larry Wharton wrote:
(snip of thermo equations)
>If one does these two steps and then puts in the standard
>form for the drift, V, the result is always a zero current density.
>
I think we are all pretty much agreed that the proposed arrangement will
not work. Larry includes comments and a reference about proposed new higher
order terms in the drift equations. Excellent information, thanks Larry. 
-
Has anyone tried the Java simulation?
-
Thanks for all the interesting observations,
George Holz  - george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 14:24:29 1998
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Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:20:04 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Meyer car observations
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At 03:34 PM 8/19/98 -0500, you wrote:
*snip*

> I've got some of his newsletters
>but you have one of his devices!  Why don't we drop this "who said what"
>game and give you the floor so you can tell us what Meyer's device actually
>does.
>
>Scott

Hear, hear! I second that motion.

--Lynn 

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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Meyer car observations
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At 03:34 PM 8/19/98 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>At 20:25 8/18/98 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>
>>    If he didnt mean electrolysis (and I have one of
>>his devices on my cabinet here) perhaps Jed will will explain
>>exactly what Jed claims Meyer was doing.
>
>Pardon me for noticing, but it appears that you may know more about Meyer's
>work than the rest of us put together.  

  Doubt that.


>I've got some of his newsletters
>but you have one of his devices!  Why don't we drop this "who said what"
>game and give you the floor so you can tell us what Meyer's device actually
>does.


   As you are know, Scott, serious quality research takes a lot of
time.   When I, and my colleagues, conduct sufficient experiments 
and other work to say something worthwhile, w'ill let you know.

 Best wishes.

   Mitchell



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Hamdi Ucar wrote:
> Used script code is:
> 
> <P><B>
> Countdown to December 31,1999:
> <FONT COLOR="#FFFFFF"><FONT SIZE=+2><I>
> <SCRIPT>
> var t=new Date()
> document.write(10958-Math.ceil(t.getTime()/86400000))
> </SCRIPT>
> </I></FONT> days
> </FONT></B></P>

Hamdi-
Thanks for the code!

-- 

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    John E. Steck
      Senior Mechanical Engineer
      Rapid Tooling Applications
      Motorola CE, PCS, Libertyville, IL
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Meyer car observations
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To: Vortex

Mitchell Swartz writes:

     Prove it.   Prove that it would violate the conservation of energy.

WHAT?!? I have to prove this? Look at the car: it has no fuel tank. That
proves it!!!! Electrolysis is not a source of energy. It converts electric
energy into potential chemical energy. The car must have some original source
of energy to generate electricity and perform electrolysis in the first place.


     Perhaps that is why Meyer never mentioned over-unity.

I think he did mention it repeatedly and explicitly. But for the sake of
argument suppose you are correct, Meyer never mentioned it. What difference
would that make? His claims shout over-unity. The design of the car shouts
over-unity. It cannot function without an over-unity effect. Apparently you
disagree, but you refuse to explain why.


     Do you know what hydrogen and oxygen overvoltage are?
     Competitive reactions, concentration polarization, IR polarization?

These have NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. You can diddle with electrolysis forever,
and improve efficiency more and more, but you will never extract a single
joule of energy from the electrolysis effluent gas which was not put there in
the first place by the electricity. All of the energy must originate somewhere
else, and there is nowhere else in the car where it might have originated.
There is no stored chemical or nuclear energy, except the battery, which would
never suffice.

I cannot state it any more clearly than that. You should address this point.
WHERE DOES THE ELECTRICITY COME FROM???



Perhaps I fail to understand your messages. I do not think anyone else here
understands you. If you wish to communicate something of value to the readers
of this forum, please consider the following advice:

Stop attacking my knowledge of electrolysis, stop telling us about your
professors at MIT, stop talking about the efficiency of electrolysis energy
conversion, stop flouting your skills in foreign languages, and making
senseless cryptic comments! Stop playing "who said what," as Scott put it.
Please explain in simple, step-by-step, direct terms how YOU think the car
works. Explain it on a level that an ordinary 13-year old kid would
understand. Address the fundamental issues: What happens at each stage up to
the point when the gas is burned in the motor? Where does the gas come from?
If this is electrolysis, as you claim, where does the electricity that drives
the electrolysis come from? If the battery is not driving the process, what
is? What is the original source of chemical or nuclear energy that drives
electrolysis?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 16:20:06 1998
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Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:59:40 -0400
From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Meyer
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Terren Suydam asks:

>> since I'm new to this scene, how
did Meyer and Griffin die? <<

Admiral Griffin died as a result of a massive heart attack.

Stan Meyer died during lunch in a restaurant - at least in the car park
having suddenly risen from the table and run outside hollering that he had
been poisoned.  Thats what was reported anyway.

Norman.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 16:21:29 1998
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/from the peanut gallery:

On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>Scott little wrote
>Pardon me for noticing, but it appears that you may know more about Meyer's
>work than the rest of us put together.  

  Doubt that.   <----- then follows up with the ~ol cover-up below.

>I've got some of his newsletters
>but you have one of his devices!  Why don't we drop this "who said what"
>game and give you the floor so you can tell us what Meyer's device actually
>does.


   As you are know, Scott, serious quality research takes a lot of
time.   When I, and my colleagues, conduct sufficient experiments 
and other work to say something worthwhile, w'ill let you know.

 Best wishes.

   Mitchell

--------------------------
AHHhhhhh Man!.. as an occasional self-appointed cheerleader for when this
group REALLY GETS GOING on a subject (any subject), AND having followed
all the threads on your assertions/facts(?) THUS FAR....
all I can say is :

Ohhh, _B_O_O__O__O_ooooo BOO hiss, hiss , D*mn Man, Meyers really
did TEACH you Alot! You must've rubbed up against him, like poison ivy!
  I had an "X"-partner with this glorified attitude (I
HAVE it, But you *Can't* see IT <always-sMiLiNg>), 
that almost landed me in jail unbeknownst to me concerning HIS actions.

AND I was just about on your side electrolysis vs atomic energy too! :(
What??????
Geezzz man.... boooo boooo hiss hissss
Keep IT OFF "PUBLIC"-LIST(s) if you knew(?) it was your <zip> secret!!

-=se=-

steve (snake-oiled again, d*mn!! :( ekwall
peanut gallery out/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 16:28:08 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 1 results
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:22:42 GMT
Organization: Improving
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References: <3.0.1.32.19980818175451.00d15270 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19980818175451.00d15270@mail.eden.com> <3.0.5.32.19980819062512.008ca530@mail.eden.com>
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On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 06:25:12 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
[snip]
>>1) Try using glass iso teflon...
>
>>2) Put a separate electrolysis cell in the current line before the
>>voltage is measured. E.g. silver electrolysis...
>
>I like both of these suggestions.  We'll see, perhaps on run 3, if glass
>can survive the thermal shock of this environment.
>
>There's a product called Indachron (I think) that totalizes current via
>some kind of electrolysis. I'll look into it.  Meanwhile, exactly what
>would you use for such a cell? How would you "read" it?...weigh the cathode
>before and after?
[snip]
When I suggested this, I was thinking about the old standard for the
ampere, which AFAIK used the gain in weight of a silver cathode. 
You might try a cell with both silver anode and cathode in a silver
nitrate electrolyte.
It also occurred to me later however, that you might also get the
sparking in the silver cell instead. I suppose you would just have to
try it and see.
A friend of mine over here in Melbourne (James Mann) and I did a first
primitive cut of this experiment the other day. I noticed that when we
used platinum wire wrapped around a short piece of tungsten, the
effect didn't occur. We just got fierce gas development from the wire.
In order to produce the effect, we had to replace the whole cathode
with a simple tungsten rod immersed about 5 mm into the electrolyte.
We then observed the effect just at and below the surface.
My reason for mentioning this is to show that different metals may or
may not demonstrate the effect. This is why I said you might just have
to try a silver cell, to see how it reacts.

One more small point. You are including a 1 ohm resistor in your
setup. If you use a coil instead, with a resistance of 1 ohm, then you
obtain better filtering, and also provide for energy stored in the
coil to be returned to the discharge. It would be interesting to see
if this has any unexpected consequences.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 16:34:49 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 1 results
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:27:53 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:28:53 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
[snip]
>immediately.  The present approach is not perfect but I am measuring the
>gas flow and taking it into account.
[snip]
If you are going to get OU at all, a good part of it may turn up in
the gas flow, so this bears watching carefully.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 16:40:27 1998
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Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 19:25:09 -0400
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At 06:45 PM 8/19/98 -0400, Jed wrote:
>These have NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. You can diddle with electrolysis forever,
>and improve efficiency more and more, but you will never extract a single
>joule of energy from the electrolysis effluent gas which was not put there in
>the first place by the electricity. All of the energy must originate
somewhere
>else, and there is nowhere else in the car where it might have originated.
>There is no stored chemical or nuclear energy, except the battery, which
would
>never suffice.

   ....
>Stop attacking my knowledge of electrolysis, stop telling us about your
>professors at MIT, stop talking about the efficiency of electrolysis energy
>conversion, stop flouting your skills in foreign languages, and making
>senseless cryptic comments!


    Jed.  First, I mentioned one prof at MIT (not plural).

    Second, you knowledge or electrolysis was not attacked as it
would have required giving you a bilateral hippocampectomy.

    Third, none of this was cryptic.  In the past I have given references
and those are keywords.  Study it, or ignore it as you prefer.  Students
of the field will be as interested in the physics and electrochem. as they
are in
semiquantitatively calibrating their equipment (even though you have often
appeared not to be).

    Fourth, given John Allan's similar question regarding exactly
what Meyer said, and Norman's response, the question asked was proper
and reasonable.

    Au revoir.

     Mitchell Swartz




   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 18:41:16 1998
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Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:36:07 +0800
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From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Electron in Crossed E & B Fields 
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George wrote:
>
>http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/9222/ele.htm
>
>>Convert heat to electric energy with static electric and magnetic
>>fields Gerhard Kainz, E-Mail: gerhard.kainz siemens.at
>>Abstract
>>This article should show that static crossed electric and magnetic
>>fields force electrons to move in one direction. This can be used
>>to produce an electric current. While moving, they convert heat
>>into electric energy, which would contradict the 2nd law of
>>thermodynamics. The first part of the article shows the principle
>>of the idea. The second part describes some possible applications.

Since I have thought long and hard a while ago about a rather
similar idea and found the fallacy, and since I haven't seen it
mentioned here yet, here is my reason for why it won't work.

We have a channel with charged particles bopping about, an
electrostatic field across the walls of a long channel and a
magnetic field vertically down through the floor of the channel.
After the momentary motion producing a slight separation of
charge in the direction of the electrostatic field, the ongoing
effect is to try to separate the charges along the length of
the channel - +ve towards one end, -ve towards the other.

However note what happens when you try to extract energy from
the system :-  In order to extract energy you have to get
the charges to build up at the ends of the channels to produce
a potential difference that then allows you to draw power off.
(Note that power = potential difference x current, so no
potential difference = no power).  However now we have an
electric field from one end of the channel to the other, and
the motion of the electrons under the influence of the magnetic
field now contains a component which traverses the channel. (ie
the same effect that made them separate to each end, now causes
them to cross the channel).  As they cross the channel they go
down the potential gradient and so just the V*I gained at the
ends of the channel is lost in the V*I across the channel.

Foiled again!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 19:00:02 1998
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Subject: Re: Meyer/Mallove/Rothwell
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Mitch wrote:
>
>Norman Horwood wrote:
>
>>>> Meyer never made statement to the effect of over-unity. <<
>>
>>Agreed - All he claimed was that his system was far more efficient than DC
>>electrolysis
>>

Maybe someone could teach some of us some basic physics by explaining
why DC electrolysis cannot be 100% efficient (at least in principle
if done with low current density, at ideal temperature, etc, etc).

It strikes me that if DC electrolysis is even somewhere near to 100%
efficient then Meyer's "far more efficient than DC electrolysis"
should exceed 100% which I thought was the very definition of
"over-unity".

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 19:45:36 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Thermophotovoltaics
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 02:39:32 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:03:25 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
[snip]
>conversion. I assume someone will find a way to make high temperature CF work.

I think almost any CF will work better at high temps than at room
temp. In fact I would almost go as far as to say that room temp. is
probably about the worst temp. for CF.
Either much below, or much above should work much better.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 19:46:27 1998
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From: ZPE <zpe pdq.net>
To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>,
        "freenrg-l eskimo.com"
	 <freenrg-l eskimo.com>,
        "'keelynet dallastexas.net'"
	 <keelynet dallastexas.net>,
        "'editor infinite-energy.com'"
	 <editor infinite-energy.com>,
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	 <mica world.std.com>,
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Subject: VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED!... Countdown to Disclosure.....10......
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 20:12:28 -0500
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Greetings to all new energy pioneers, 

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For details, visit our new web site created for this announcement: http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 21:26:06 1998
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Sirs,

Before answering the responses to my request, I would the clear and 
accurate answer to my question that the Infinite Energy team refused to 
answer over a period of months of decent and reasonable inquiry. I have 
the emails to prove this, if necessary, and you will note the objective 
truth is again contrary to one of Jed Rothwell's emotive assertions. 

We have Mr Rothwell claiming to have sabotaged the House of Lord's 
seminar, we had Mr Tinsley boasting that he had done so and now we have 
Mr Horwood state that it was in fact he that did the job.  We know that 
Mr Tinsley and Mr Horwood were buddies.  We know that We know that Mr 
Tinsley was profiting personally and financially out of his association 
with Infinite Energy.  We know that the Infinite Energy team copy emails 
and share all information between each other but refuse to share it with 
other earnest researchers in the field such as "secret" files * on this 
other scientist compiled by unnamed researchers. ( Sources: previous 
vortex mail, private conversations and email with Ms Soo [sic] Seddon, 
Ms Jeane Manning, Dr Mallove )
 

We know the Tony Edwards was connected to th cabal and entirely capable 
of recognising conventional electrolysis.  He published the only article 
on the matter knowing that it was dishonest. ( Reference The Sunday 
Times ) Objectively, we note Mr Rothwell making excessive 
unsubstantiated and prejudicial statements, personal judgments which 
have no place with science.  We note he creates factious and utterly 
erroneous statements to justify his actions. ( Reference: " the House of 
Lords seminar went ahead... ", it did not )  

We also note the prior refusal of the Infinite Energy team to accept any 
offers of external impartial third party to check the said facts and 
references.  We note a tendency to embellish objectively factious 
elements in the reporting of these issues and we note the valid 
grievances of individuals interviewed who feel patronised and 
misrepresented the obituary article on Meyer.  ( Source: emails to Dr 
Mallove and James Wight. Reference: Admiral Griffin's waining enthusiasm 
and lack of any valid third party verification of cell  )

Please ignore all the obfuscation about over-unity, batteries and 
electrolysis, I never said Meyer's fuel cell was conventional 
electrolysis.  It was patently not even to a high school student.

• Could the parties please just clarify to me how the sabotage was 
engineered?  

• Could we know whose motivation this was and why?

• How did the Infinite Energy team decide it was a fake?

• Mr Horwood, did you receive a copy of the full court proceedings 
during your journeys in Ohio?  

• Are you asserting that the county court and judge were a qualified to 
make scientific judgments, that every judgment made within every court 
is valid and just, and that you are qualified morally and professionally 
to decipher whether legal protocol was upheld or not? 

This I think we could refer to as a necessary application of Ockham's 
Razor.  I note John Bockris's statement, one of the few people in our 
knowledge potentially qualified to pass accurate judgment on Mr Meyer's 
work,  to the effect that he could not be called upon to replicate his 
valid claims in such a scenario.  A Kangaroo Court is what the 
Australians would call it if I am permitted to use a foreign language to 
Mr Rothwell.

In brief, I would like to say that, no, I have had no financial 
involvement with WFC.  Yes, I and others in the UK were able to discuss 
at length both the technology and business structure of WFC.  Yes, I 
have communicated to Noel Whitney and Dr Rea O'Neill of Dublin, the 
former refusing to furnish any evidence to substantiate his claims which 
have been further exaggerated in vortex-L, the latter provided a well 
studied and positive report that explained the effect being witnessed 
with standard model science.  

Yes, through a wider social circle acquainted with the Griffin family, I 
spoke to Tony immediately before his death and can report that it was 
his wish that the seminar went ahead.  Yes, I can confirm that as 
Controller of the Royal Navy ( rank responsible for ordering and 
maintaining hardware ) he was responsible for commissioning the report 
on converting the Royal Navy to hydrogen ( 1973/4 ) and became one of it 
experts in the field.  I can confirm that he was renown as a competent 
and enthusiastic technological expert within the field of naval 
architecture ( Source: " I, Minister ". Gerald Kaufman, MP, private 
communications with Commander Kenneth Shattock ).  

I can confirm that sufficient work has been done in the UK to support 
the claims that Mr Meyer found a novel and highly efficient way to 
disassociate the water molecule and if Mr Rothwell wish to commission a 
retrofit on board electrolysis hydrogen conversion kit for any 4-stroke 
motorcar up to 4 litres in capacity that starts on the key and runs for 
more than 16km, I will be happy to fulfil his wishes. 

I cannot confirm that in my two days of company with Stanley Meyer that 
I ever saw or heard mention of firearms.  An experience shared in five 
days of company by the Inca production team.  I cannot confirm the this 
individual ever had any criminal proceedings held against him.  I cannot 
substantiate the personality profile that is being created for him by 
adversarial parties using gross confrontation tactics.

I remind you all that my main point is about the importance of adherence 
to scientific protocol and not in fact regarding the work of this 
particular scientist.

I did not know that the Infinite Energy team had been taken to task over 
these issues beforehand and I act independently in my concern of the 
behaviour of self appointed opinion formers within a important growing 
field that refuse peer review or accountability over their actions.  I 
share Dr Swartz concerns for the field if this behaviour is being 
extended to others and I will follow on with further objective 
miss-handling I am aware off in the future.

On the basis of my own and other's experience I challenge, contrary to 
what Mr Rothwell reports, that space technology is certainly not all in 
the public domain ( Source: Space Dept, UK Defence Evaluation Research 
Agency ), that US Government and corporations will regularly collaborate 
to suppress competitive clean environmental energy technologies from the 
market ( Source: NASA/Lockheed Operation Suntan 1953/54 ) and will as a 
matter of form withhold access and information to developments until 
said good are delivered to the market place in time with their own 
technological agendas.

My " professional investment " was solely to put time aside from my 
career to lobby on behalf of any important new energy technologies, 
something I have done from a grass roots level right up to presentations 
at the House of Lords again.  I note Infinite Energy team’s refusal to 
co-operate in networking their UK readership with groups in the UK.  

• Importantly, I note that neither the Infinite Energy team nor the 
confrontational group in London were offically recognised reputable 
bodies and that neither were democractically elected nor representative 
of any group or national.  

• Could anyone tell me what obligation any scientist would have to hand 
over their confidential secrets and equipment as Meyer was asked to?

Given the current climate, any individual doing this takes an 
sufficiently extreme professional risk without having their efforts 
lampooned by supposed allies acting well outside of any professional 
protocols that I understand.

Given the national and international implications of this work, it is 
not an area that ought be handle lightly nor for the sake of personal 
whim and indulgence.

Mr Rothwell ignores the gravity of certain objective observations I 
brought up in my first mail while relishing his cruelty.  On balance 
these observations lead me to accept the importance of Meyer's work 
despite his own personality.

In answer to Mr Remi Cornwell's statement of not knowing who to believe, 
I would suggest believe in no one but make your judgments based on the 
observation of objective facts and learn to fairly discriminate between 
the specific and relative gravity of said facts.

In answer to his experience of losing other people's fights, there is no 
attack going on here.  I am merely asking for honesty and co-operation.  
If individuals with the field of scientific pursuit are willing to make 
accusations them must be capable of supporting those accusations or 
retract them.  Their judgments ought to be within the level of their 
professional capabilities.

If they are willing to make accusations to the degree of dishonesty or 
libel, then one is within one's bounds to expect their own behaviour to 
be beyond reproach in matters of professionalism and integrity. 

One must examine the tool before one performs the experiment.  I am 
exploring valid matters of principle here first before technology.

If you lost your battles Remi perhaps you used the wrong approach in 
dealing with bully behaviour and misunderstood gang mentality.  The 
trick to success is in never sinking to their level to fight them.  
Stick within the circle of truth and you will always remain safe.

Sincerely,


John Allan
energy gold.globalcafe.co.uk

Please excuse grammatical and typographical errors as this is not my 
natural medium of communication.

* reference to “ secret files “, I refer to files reported to me 
including such juicy gossip that Mr Meyer once slept with a prostitute 
and so on.

• Could these and any other files held on other scientist not known to 
me also be made public?

It is worth adding that a DTI commissioned report, based solely on 
inspection of patent and completely by scientists engaged in Ministry of 
Defence contracts, came to the conclusion that Meyer could not possibly 
have achieved the advances in scientific knowledge he claimed.  Heavily 
overshadowed as it was by the then current Cold Fusion debacle, the 
reasons it gave were that Meyer was not academically qualified enough 
and that he had Christian religious beliefs.




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 19 21:50:37 1998
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Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:46:09 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED!... Countdown to
 Disclosure.....10......
Resent-Message-ID: <"we5f6.0.6I2.Pfwsr" mx1>
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"ZPE" writes:

      >  Greetings to all new energy pioneers,
   >
   >  The time has come to make an announcement that
   >  many of you have been waiting to hear for a great
   >  many years. While full disclosure will not take
   >  place until 10 weeks have passed from the date of
   >  this announcement, this is the first of a series of
   >  messages to prepare each of you for our final and
   >  complete disclosure and to make a final appeal to
   >  potential financial partners.
   >
   >  ANNOUNCING... The secrets of thermodynamic
   >  phenomenon known as the "vortex" have been
   >  discovered, its mysteries have been solved and the
   >  technology that will utilize it to produce useable
   >  amounts of energy has been identified.
   >
   >  For details, visit our new web site created for this
   >  announcement: http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe


I hope this has nothing to do with Charles Cagle. It does sound more like a
disturbed 14 year old who was unable to acquire the firearms necessary to
get his classmate's attention in the manner that has become usual lately,
but rather has found a new outlet for the mysterious vortices churning
within his own mind. But then Cagle sounds like that too. Disagree with
Cagle's free-energy/religious/messianic fantasies, and you're immediately
declared to be going to heck in a handbasket, and posthaste as well.

Just checked the web site. Nothing but the usual extreme paranoid inventors
disease interspersed with cries for money for "R&D". No hint of a device,
unless you come up with money. Is there a cult to join to get this vortex
energy going? Is suicide a requirement? Wanna bet we never find out? Wanna
bet we couldn't care less?

.  .  .

Err... you guys don't think I've become _too_ cynical, do you?  ;)

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


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Test mailing to Vortex-l from new Yahoo account.




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 00:39:26 1998
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Source: Ron Baalke BAALKE kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:23:14 GMT

Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research
Organisation (CSIRO)
Australia

Contact: Helen Sim
CSIRO Australia Telescope National Facility
e-mail: hsim atnf.csiro.au
phone: (61) 2 9372 4251
fax: (61) 2 9372 4444

Astronomers using CSIRO's Parkes radio telescope have made
a picture that shows our Galaxy ripping apart its nearest
neighbours.

The finding is published today in the journal Nature. It
will also be announced this afternoon at an international
conference at the Australian Academy of Science in
Canberra, hosted by the Australian National University's
Mount Stromlo Observatory. The two nearest neighbouring
galaxies, the Large and Small Magellanic Clouds, are less
than a tenth of our Galaxy in size. They are close by, only
twice as far from the starry edge of our Galaxy as that
edge is from the Galaxy's centre. And they orbit
our Galaxy, in thrall to its gravitational pull.

That pull is now tearing them apart, by tugging harder on
their near side than on their far side. Hydrogen gas
stripped from the Clouds by this process is now streaming
out ahead and behind them.

The dismemberment was imaged by the new 'multibeam'
instrument on the Parkes
telescope, which detects the hydrogen gas in galaxies --
the 'bones' underlying their starry 'flesh'.

Developed by CSIRO, it is the most powerful instrument of
its kind in the world. Most of its work is searching for
faint and hidden galaxies that can't be detected any other
way.

The new picture has settled a long-standing controversy
sparked by a much earlier finding made with the Parkes
telescope.

In 1973 Dr (later Professor) Don Mathewson from Mount
Stromlo Observatory used the Parkes telescope to discover a
trail of gas flowing behind the Magellanic Clouds. This
trail, called the Magellanic Stream, is more than twice as
long as the diameter of our Galaxy.

Astronomers have argued for decades about the Stream's
origin. "But over the years we've whittled it down to two
choices," said CSIRO's Dr Lister Staveley-Smith, lead
scientist on the multibeam project.

"One was a process called ram-pressure stripping -- gas
being swept out of the Magellanic Clouds as the Clouds
travelled through our Galaxy's outskirts."

"The other was so-called tidal forces from our Galaxy. That
idea predicted we'd find material coming off the leading
edge of the Clouds -- and we have," said Dr Staveley-Smith.

"People have looked before for this stuff but haven't found
it because they sampled the sky rather coarsely, whereas
we've been searching with a fine-toothed comb," said Ms
Mary Putman, the PhD student at Mount Stromlo Observatory
who made the key picture.

"We are interested in how galaxies interact, because it's
an important aspect of how they evolve over time. We are
still trying to understand how important interactions are
in creating new stars, for instance," said Mt Stromlo
Observatory's Dr Brad Gibson, Ms Putman's thesis
supervisor.

* Distances to the Magellanic Clouds: the Large Magellanic
Cloud is 160 000 light-years away (about 1.5 million
million million kilometres). The Small Magellanic Cloud is
190 000 light-years away (about 1.9 million million million
kilometres).

PICTURES ARE AVAILABLE FROM:
http://www.csiro.au/news/lmc.html

 

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Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 03:35:22 -0400
From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Science lies in observation
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John Allan asks:

>> • Could the parties please just clarify to me how the sabotage was
engineered?  

• Could we know whose motivation this was and why? <<

No "sabotage" was engineered.  All that happened was that a conversation
between me (N.H.) and the Secretary of the outfit organising the seminar
(Anthony Harvey), initiated by him following my condolence letter to Lady
Griffin, revealed that they had no knowledge of the recent court
proceedings involving Meyer.  A.H. felt that they should discover the facts
of the case themselves and he took steps to contact the court and received
a copy of the findings which were copied to me. I was invited to attend the
seminar during that conversation.

As a result of their investigations they decided to quiz Meyer before going
ahead with the seminar as they did not wish to sully the name of Tony
Griffin if Meyer proved to be convicted of fraud and was unable to satisfy
the organisers of his innocence.

That is all.

>> • Mr Horwood, did you receive a copy of the full court proceedings 
during your journeys in Ohio? <<

I never indicated that I went to Ohio, just that I communicated with
various court officials via phone and fax.  I have the findings of the
court and the judgement.

>> • Are you asserting that the county court and judge were a qualified to 
make scientific judgments, that every judgment made within every court 
is valid and just, and that you are qualified morally and professionally 
to decipher whether legal protocol was upheld or not? <<

No - what I said was that you have to accept the findings of any legally
constituted court unless its findings are overturned by a higher court on
appeal.  That is how our system works.

You may disagree with any result, but until additional evidence is
presented and accepted which negates the original result the judgement
stands.

I am not a lawyer.  I fail to understand your 'morality' point.

>> Yes, I have communicated to Noel Whitney and Dr Rea O'Neill of Dublin,
the 
former refusing to furnish any evidence to substantiate his claims which 
have been further exaggerated in vortex-L, <<

You either believe Noel Whitney or you don't.  He may not be in a position
to reveal the internal accounts of his organisation.

>> the latter provided a well studied and positive report that explained
the effect being witnessed with standard model science. <<

Are you referring to the memo by O'Neill shown as Appendix 1 in Griffin's
'Water as Fuel' brochure of 1993, where he states:

"Meyer has obviously discovered some method of collecting hydrogen
different from the traditional methods"

Incidentally, in that same document on page 3 Griffin states in his potted
bio. of Stanley A.Meyer as follows:

"For at time he ran his own business in automobile spare parts and made a
fortune with which he financed his subsequent work."

Page 4 of that brochure also makes interesting reading where Griffin
describes Meyer's wonderful developments in IC engines.  Referring to the
Volkswagen conversion he says:

"He then proceeded to refine the design to bring it up to ITS PRESENT
PREPRODUCTION STANDARD."(my caps)  This in 1993!!

and:

"According to Meyer his dune buggy, travelling at 65 mph, would cover 25
miles per litre of water, (salt, fresh or distilled)"

So what stopped him from 1993 - he had his 'fortune' behind him and was
stated to have a huge production facility ready?

>> Yes, I can confirm that as Controller of the Royal Navy ( rank
responsible for ordering and maintaining hardware ) he was responsible for
commissioning the report on converting the Royal Navy to hydrogen ( 1973/4
) and became one of it experts in the field.  I can confirm that he was
renown as a competent 
and enthusiastic technological expert within the field of naval
architecture
(Source: " I, Minister ". Gerald Kaufman, MP, private communications with
Commander Kenneth Shattock ). <<

Griffin's expertise seems to have been in relaying Meyer's sales pitch. 
However I have also communicated with MPs and ministers non of whom accept
any of Meyer's claims.

>> I can confirm that sufficient work has been done in the UK to support 
the claims that Mr Meyer found a novel and highly efficient way to 
disassociate the water molecule and if Mr Rothwell wish to commission a 
retrofit on board electrolysis hydrogen conversion kit for any 4-stroke 
motorcar up to 4 litres in capacity that starts on the key and runs for 
more than 16km, I will be happy to fulfil his wishes. <<

Oh!  so you want money.  If you have a product demonstrate it to real
Engineers and Scientists and allow independent instrumentation.  Not a
disclosure of unpublished 'secrets', although, as has been said many times
a valid Patent must disclose enough to enable replication by a competent
body.


>> • Could anyone tell me what obligation any scientist would have to hand 
over their confidential secrets and equipment as Meyer was asked to? <<

Not true - Meyer was never, to my knowledge, asked to hand over any
confidential secrets, only to allow independent instrumentation of his demo
cell.  That is what he refused to do, citing a non-existent (no certificate
was ever forthcoming) ruling of the US Patent Office which prevented him
showing any 3rd party his stuff.

If John Allan has physical evidence of the validity of Meyer's devices
please say so and produce it.  Otherwise shut up.

Norman Horwood.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 00:48:17 1998
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To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Electron-Proton "Ring Toss" Puzzle. Electron Ringers?
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 01:41:18 -0600
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To: Vortex

The neutron decays to an electron, a proton, and an antineutrino losing
0.7825 Mev mass-energy.

Of this 0.511 mev is the electron mass-energy,
and the remaining energy is in the antineutrino
and possibly the kinetic energy of the electron and the antineutrino.

Turning things around, the potential energy release for an electron coming
from infinity
to a Radius R around the Proton:

W = kq^2/R where (kq^2 = 2.3E-28) then at R =
2.81E-15 meters (the radius of the electron circle) W = .511 Mev. But this
is the total
energy, ie., potential plus kinetic. Thus
1/2 of this (0.255 Mev)is potential energy.

>From this, borrowing from playing "Ring Toss"
or Horseshoes, if you get a "RINGER" the energy
MUST be DONATED to THE PROTON much like storing energy in a spring by
setting a mass on it.

OTOH, the energy required to eject an electron
bound to a proton in a hydrogen atom is 13.6 ev.

>From this, does the capture of an electron by
a proton (recombination) that gives off 13.6 ev
as a uv photon, also donate 0.255 mev to the
proton and oscillate at the classical QM-Bohr "radius" (5.29E-11 meters) and
frequencies, with the smallest radius being equal to the
2.81E-15 meters (2.81 Fermi) of the electron?

This would make the radius of the hydrogen or deuterium atom  about 3 Fermi
for about 1.5E-16 seconds on each oscillation,which is where
"Quantum-Mechanical Tunneling" allows Fusion Reactions to occur.

This should be temperature independent,but
most likely less probable at Higher Temperatures!   :-)

Regards,    Frederick






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 02:20:34 1998
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Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:18:36 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: Re: Meyer/Mallove/Rothwell
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Children becoming like their parents. Revolutionaries turned dictators. 
Pontius Pilate. Snowball and Napolean. Faust and Mephistopheleces. 
Zarathrustra. Jesus Christ. 

They're all here and a few more. Utterly predictable. Some pathetic.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 07:06:40 1998
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Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:58:14 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Science lies in observation
In-Reply-To: <199808200338_MC2-56AB-254 compuserve.com>
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  At 03:35 AM 8/20/98 -0400, Norman Horwood wrote:
>
>If John Allan has physical evidence of the validity of Meyer's devices
>please say so and produce it.  Otherwise shut up.


  1) John Allan has done a service here, and the
readership is grateful for the detailed, clear, and
evokative postings my Mr. Allan   DESPITE Mr. Horwood.


    2) Also, I would like to know where experiments were
done using Mr. Meyer's equipment with salt water.
His videos clearly state ordinary water.  I seem
to remember that he was upset that someone had
used high electrical conductivity water which did
not work.

   Does anyone know who did it?  
   What the molarity was?   
   and whether that purported "salt-water" experiment had a role in
either what happened in Ohio or the UK?

    Thanks.

        Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 07:54:52 1998
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From: ZPE <zpe pdq.net>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED!... Countdown toDisclosure.....10......
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:55:20 -0500
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BDCC20.ACA29D80
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Rick wrote:
"I hope this has nothing to do with Charles Cagle. It does sound more =
like a
disturbed 14 year old who was unable to acquire the firearms necessary =
to
get his classmate's attention in the manner that has become usual =
lately,
but rather has found a new outlet for the mysterious vortices churning
within his own mind. But then Cagle sounds like that too. Disagree with
Cagle's free-energy/religious/messianic fantasies, and you're =
immediately
declared to be going to heck in a handbasket, and posthaste as well.

Just checked the web site. Nothing but the usual extreme paranoid =
inventors
disease interspersed with cries for money for "R&D". No hint of a =
device,
unless you come up with money. Is there a cult to join to get this =
vortex
energy going? Is suicide a requirement? Wanna bet we never find out? =
Wanna
bet we couldn't care less?"

Rick,

I understand your cynicism and I can appreciate your sense of humor, but =
I'm afraid you're way off base.  While I am certainly a Christian, I am =
not foolish enough to do or say things that would serve only to =
discredit my faith or God.

Regarding my "cries for money for R&D", developing a technology based on =
a real discovery is going to take real dollars,  which we are not too =
proud to say that we do not have in sufficient amounts.  Also, if and =
when we accept any funds from anyone, it will only be after we have =
successfully convinced the would-be funder that our discovery and =
concepts are real.  That means competent evaluation by the funder or a =
qualified third party.  No "blind-faith" gifts or investments will be =
accepted.

Paranoia?  To quote a phrase from one of the latest movies, "It's not =
paranoia if they're really after you."

On "finding out"... In ten weeks, either full disclosure will happen or =
we will send out a broadcast message informing everyone that funding has =
occurred and to expect to benefit from it in the not-to-distant future.

Best Wishes,
ZPE
http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe


-----Original Message-----
From:	Rick Monteverde [SMTP:monteverde worldnet.att.net]
Sent:	Wednesday, August 19, 1998 11:46 PM
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	Re: VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED!... Countdown =
toDisclosure.....10......

"ZPE" writes:

      >  Greetings to all new energy pioneers,
   >
   >  The time has come to make an announcement that
   >  many of you have been waiting to hear for a great
   >  many years. While full disclosure will not take
   >  place until 10 weeks have passed from the date of
   >  this announcement, this is the first of a series of
   >  messages to prepare each of you for our final and
   >  complete disclosure and to make a final appeal to
   >  potential financial partners.
   >
   >  ANNOUNCING... The secrets of thermodynamic
   >  phenomenon known as the "vortex" have been
   >  discovered, its mysteries have been solved and the
   >  technology that will utilize it to produce useable
   >  amounts of energy has been identified.
   >
   >  For details, visit our new web site created for this
   >  announcement: http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe




  .  .

Err... you guys don't think I've become _too_ cynical, do you?  ;)

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 08:52:32 1998
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Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:53:51 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Inc. W Run 2 results
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Interested parties should look at:

http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/run2.html

Calorimeter plots and scope waveforms are presented.

This run lasted a little longer than Run 1, plenty long enough to obtain
relatively reliable calorimetric results and yet there was still no sign of
the significant excess heat that other investigators have suggested might
accompany this phenomenon.

Run 3 is already underway with a few changes to the apparatus.

Thanks for all the excellent suggestions.  I'm reading and considering
everything...just don't have much time for discussion.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 09:16:01 1998
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Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 12:10:26 -0400
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Subject: Re: Science lies in observation
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To: Vortex

Norman Horwood writes:

     As a result of their investigations they decided to quiz Meyer before
     going ahead with the seminar . . .

Ah, I thought the quiz *was* the seminar. I misunderstood.


     No - what I said was that you have to accept the findings of any legally
     constituted court unless its findings are overturned by a higher court
     on appeal.  That is how our system works.

Ours too! <ha, ha>


     Not true - Meyer was never, to my knowledge, asked to hand over any
     confidential secrets, only to allow independent instrumentation of his
     demo cell.  That is what he refused to do, citing a non-existent (no
     certificate was ever forthcoming) ruling of the US Patent Office which
     prevented him showing any 3rd party his stuff.

This is a key point with regard to Meyer and many other o-u energy
researchers. We repeatedly assured Meyer that we did not need access to the
internal workings of his device. A.H. and Mallove proposed non-invasive tests
to measure input and output. I think Meyer understood this, but he
misrepresented our requests and he persuaded people like John Allan that we
wanted to steal secrets. Many CF scientists have similarly misrepresented
legitimate demands by investors that their devices be subjected to third-party
verification with appropriate secrecy safeguards. These people want the money
but they refuse to take steps to assure investors that their claims are valid.
It's hopeless. I think many CF scientists do not understand why investors must
have assurances, and others are paranoid, but I think Meyer understood what
was needed. I think he refused to allow verification tests because he knew his
device would fail.


     If John Allan has physical evidence of the validity of Meyer's devices
     please say so and produce it.  Otherwise shut up.

Amen!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 09:22:32 1998
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Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:19:51 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Just a guess
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A chemist told me 'if you can, steer clear of liquid and gas phase
reactions'.  His view point was that they are intriniscally difficult
because of the number of system variables and surface phenomena etc.,
messy and expensive.  My guess is that the consensus on ou will be seen in
solid state devices directly generating electricity. 

Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 11:18:28 1998
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Military strikes against terrorist targets in Afganistan and Sudan
http://www.cnn.com/

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[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.cnn.com/
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 11:44:11 1998
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From: ZPE <zpe pdq.net>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>,
        "'freenrg-l eskimo.com'"
	 <freenrg-l eskimo.com>,
        "'keelynet dallastexas.net'"
	 <keelynet dallastexas.net>,
        "'editor infinite-energy.com'"
	 <editor infinite-energy.com>,
        "'haisch starspot.com'"
	 <haisch starspot.com>,
        "'halfox slkc.uswest.net'"
	 <halfox slkc.uswest.net>
To: "'ine padrak.com'" <ine@padrak.com>,
        "'mica world.std.com'"
	 <mica world.std.com>,
        "'paynen tesla.org'" <paynen@tesla.org>
Subject: UPDATED web site - VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:45:08 -0500
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I've received tremendous response to my announcement and we are currently processing these responses as quickly as possible.  After reviewing many, several legitimate concerns have been raised.   Ultimately, I plan to address all of them both individually
 and globally through updates to our web site.  The first one we have addressed is the issue of economic impacts of a new energy technology.  Please revisit our site and find (Control+F) the phrase " Minimizing Negative Economic Impacts".  There you will 
find the key points to our answer on this critical issue.

Best Wishes,
ZPE
http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 12:10:54 1998
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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: Frederick J Sparber <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 12:11:11 -0700
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On 20-Aug-98, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

>Military strikes against terrorist targets in Afganistan and Sudan
>http://www.cnn.com/

 If it weren't so badly needed and _long_ overdue, we might call it
 "Wag the Dog" ;^)
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\--
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'
 http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 12:56:28 1998
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Brodzinski, Ronald L" <ron.brodzinski pnl.gov>
Subject: Re: "Ring Toss"
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:47:42 -0600
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-----Original Message-----
From: Brodzinski, Ronald L <ron.brodzinski pnl.gov>
To: 'fjsparb sprintmail.com' <fjsparb@sprintmail.com>
Date: Thursday, August 20, 1998 1:23 PM
Subject: "Ring Toss"

Thanks Ron, I wasn't sure on that point.

FJS


>Just read your latest FAX, and wanted to correct a small error in the very
>beginning.  When a neutron decays to a proton, electron, and antineutrino,
the
>mass excess is 0.7825 MeV, which is taken up entirely in the kinetic energy
of
>the electron and the antineutrino.  The rest masses of the electron,
proton, and
>antineutrino are already included in the mass difference between the
neutron and
>the end products.  None of the 0.7825 MeV goes into electron rest mass.
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 12:58:06 1998
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Message-ID: <35DC9A7A.6ADA sunherald.infi.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 14:51:54 -0700
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
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Here's something for you to think about:

Special relativity states that as you approach the speed of light, time
dilates (you age slower than a non-moving observer). It also states that
all motion is relative, since all inertial reference frames are
equivalent (everybody is correct in their interpretation of what
happens). Here's something very interesting to think about:

Let us imagine that there are two observers, Bob and Mark, out in space.
One of the observers is travelling towards the other one at nearly the
speed of light. The speed and distance is such that it will take the two
observers 10 years to meet, and in that 10 years the moving observer
will age only 1 year.

Bob's reference frame: "I am stationary, Mark is moving towards me and
will arrive in 10 years. When he arrives, I will have aged 10 years, he
will have aged 1."

Mark's reference frame: "I am stationary, Bob is moving towards me and
will arrive in 10 years. When he arrives, I will have aged 10 years, he
will have aged 1."

They can't both be right, yet relativity says they can. In other words,
Bob is just as right as Mark.

So who is younger?

Best regards,
Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 13:26:11 1998
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Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:21:30 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Calling Allan's bluff
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To: Vortex; >INTERNET:energy_solutions hotmail.com

I missed this little gem the first time I read this message from John Allan:

     I can confirm that sufficient work has been done in the UK to support
     the claims that Mr Meyer found a novel and highly efficient way to
     disassociate the water molecule and if Mr Rothwell wish to commission a
     retrofit on board electrolysis hydrogen conversion kit for any 4-stroke
     motorcar up to 4 litres in capacity that starts on the key and runs for
     more than 16km, I will be happy to fulfil his wishes.

You are lying through your teeth, Mr. Allan. You are advertising a nonexistent
product and trying to defraud me and the other readers of this forum. You are
violating the rules here. Furthermore I am sick of your absurd accusations,
your confusion and your scientifically illiterate nonsense. I hereby call your
bluff. I accept your offer. Here are my terms:

1. Forget the 4-stroke motorcar. You do not need to retrofit a motor. The
conversion kit alone will suffice. You must operate it on a stand-alone basis,
with electricity input and gas output.

2. I will ask an engineer in the U.K. to act as my agent and evaluate the
machine. Perhaps Norman Horwood would be kind enough to do this. We will not
pay your travel expenses, but if you would like, please feel free to bring the
machine to the U.S. and demonstrate it to Eugene Mallove.

3. After Horwood, Mallove or some other engineer of my choosing confirms that
the device works, and that it might be used to drive the motorcar 16
kilometers, I will pay you $10,000 for the kit. Also, if you would like, I
will quickly arrange for millions of dollars in investment capital to develop
the device, and we will feature it in an upcoming issue of Infinite Energy.

That's my offer. Take it or leave it. Put up or shut up. Perhaps you will
demand money in advance for this "commission." I will not pay in advance. No
sane person would, given the misery and lost money this accursed fraud has
cost so far. If you refuse my terms, I suggest you shut up and go try to
swindle people in some other forum. You will have no luck here.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 13:37:45 1998
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Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:34:36 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Science lies in observation
Resent-Message-ID: <"qFnvA3.0._M5.fY8tr" mx1>
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Mitchell -

   >    1) John Allan has done a service here, and the
   >  readership is grateful for the detailed, clear, and
   >  evokative postings my Mr. Allan   DESPITE Mr.
   >  Horwood.

Neither Allen's attempted self-serving rehabilitation of that fraud Meyer,
nor your attempted positive spin on it, provide any service here unless
someone needs a lesson about how densely gullible people can be in spite of
all the contrary evidence. ( - Anyone out there still hoping Greg Watson
will send them their SMOTs, for example.)

Most of all, the "readership" is likely not at all grateful for the support
being proposed for a known proven fraud and his non-working energy devices.
Nor is it likely to be grateful for the attempt to smear those who exposed
important and relevant information about Meyer to the organizers of a forum
arranged for the purpose of further exploitation of people by this fraud. I
think these notes tend to discredit the list and insult the intelligence of
most of its readership.

Know when to fold 'em, Mitchell. Meyer's 'car' isn't going anywhere and
never did, and this is starting to get embarrassing.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 13:49:52 1998
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Subject: Re: "Ring Toss"
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At 01:47 PM 8/20/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>Just read your latest FAX, and wanted to correct a small error in the very
>beginning.  When a neutron decays to a proton, electron, and antineutrino,
>the mass excess is 0.7825 MeV, which is taken up entirely in the kinetic
>energy of the electron and the antineutrino.  The rest masses of the
electron,
>proton, and antineutrino are already included in the mass difference
between >the neutron and the end products.  None of the 0.7825 MeV goes
into electron >rest mass.
 
   Hmmm.  Some of the kinetic energy goes into the proton as well, but the
amount is small since the recoil velocity is low.  (Energy is mV^2, while
momentum is mV, for the three particles delta momentum has to sum to zero,
while delta energy is as above.)  If you try to measure this in the lab,
you run into the fact that the electron radiates energy moving though an
electric field--like near the proton.  This is why establishing the
neutrino mass is such a problem.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 14:04:35 1998
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Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 11:01:16 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED!... Countdown
 toDisclosure.....10......
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ZPE -

Glad to hear this isn't Cagle.

Schauberger stuff then? There are tricky things going on in boundary
layers, and I understand there is some indication that these effects reach
down to the level where there may be some ZPE interaction with macroscopic
effects occuring as a result. Would be nice to see that there is some way
to imbalance the flow, 'cohere' or tap that energy, and even more so to see
that someone has done it and intends to release and or market ***working***
and replicable devices based on the principle.

I remain skeptical that you have any such solution. Good luck if you do.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 14:16:16 1998
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Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 11:13:07 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Science lies in observation
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Geez, I just re-read the title John Allen gave to this thread.

:)

Well put, Mr. Allen.
(With a tip of the hat to Dr. Freud)

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 14:25:47 1998
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   At 10:34 AM 8/20/98 -1000, Rick wrote:

>   >    1) John Allan has done a service here, and the
>   >  readership is grateful for the detailed, clear, and
>   >  evokative postings my Mr. Allan   DESPITE Mr.
>   >  Horwood.
>
>Neither Allen's attempted self-serving rehabilitation of that fraud Meyer,
>nor your attempted positive spin on it, provide any service here unless
>someone needs a lesson about how densely gullible people can be in spite of
>all the contrary evidence. ( - Anyone out there still hoping Greg Watson
>will send them their SMOTs, for example.)

   It isnt even clear what Meyer fully claimed as yet, so it
not true that anyone is "rehabilitating" anything about him or
his system.  

   Only questions were asked on this side. 
And that is science Rick, systematized knowledge.

   If you want to fooled by those who substitute hearsay
for truth, then stop asking questions.   We won't, however.

    Mitchell


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At 04:21 PM 8/20/98 -0400, Jed wrote:

>You are lying through your teeth, Mr. Allan. 

   Garbage like this does not belong here.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 14:39:23 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From: Robert I. Eachus <eachus mitre.org>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Thursday, August 20, 1998 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: "Ring Toss"

Yes Robert, and Dr. Brodzinski (we go back bird-dogging anomalous reactions
before CF cropped up) told me that the "statistical" energy division
between the antineutrino and the electron is about 66% going into the
antineutrino
and most of the rest for the electron. As you say not much recoil
momentum goes into the proton, with the neutrinos carrying off the lions
share
of energy this is
where CF reactions could be "aneutronic"/gammaless with the rest coming out
as CF heat.

Regards, Frederick


Robert I. Eachus wrote:


>At 01:47 PM 8/20/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>>Just read your latest FAX, and wanted to correct a small error in the very
>>beginning.  When a neutron decays to a proton, electron, and antineutrino,
>>the mass excess is 0.7825 MeV, which is taken up entirely in the kinetic
>>energy of the electron and the antineutrino.  The rest masses of the
>electron,
>>proton, and antineutrino are already included in the mass difference
>between >the neutron and the end products.  None of the 0.7825 MeV goes
>into electron >rest mass.
>
>   Hmmm.  Some of the kinetic energy goes into the proton as well, but the
>amount is small since the recoil velocity is low.  (Energy is mV^2, while
>momentum is mV, for the three particles delta momentum has to sum to zero,
>while delta energy is as above.)  If you try to measure this in the lab,
>you run into the fact that the electron radiates energy moving though an
>electric field--like near the proton.  This is why establishing the
>neutrino mass is such a problem.
>
>                                        Robert I. Eachus
>
>with Standard_Disclaimer;
>use  Standard_Disclaimer;
>function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 15:20:10 1998
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<Garbage like this does not belong here.>

It might be construed as garbage if it was mere talk, but from what I have
read here, Mr Rothwell has issued a perfectly legitimate and fair challenge
for the party of the first part to substantiate their claim.

I'm not a scientist - perhaps you aren't either, I don't know - but I don't
have a problem with this and I doubt that the majority of subscribers to
this list will either.  

I know little of the device in question,  and even less of the sordid
politics which allegedly surround it and its inventor, but I know a good
poker game when I see one.

Now who's going to call first ??

- Soo

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  At 06:18 PM 8/20/98 -0400, Soo wrote:
><Garbage like this does not belong here.>
>
>It might be construed as garbage if it was mere talk, but from what I have
>read here, Mr Rothwell has issued a perfectly legitimate and fair challenge
>for the party of the first part to substantiate their claim.


 First, it is garbage, and as vicious as the previous posts.

 Second, Mr. Rothwell was incorrect in claiming
Meyer was using cold fusion or overunity technology, 
and it took another individual to finally admit that he did not say it.
And THAT took ~a year suggesting that there appear to be
nonscientific interests in this matter.



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Subject: Inc. W Run 3 results
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http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/run3.html

shows the results of Run 3 which was conducted today.  Again no sign of
excess heat.

The floor is open for suggested CHANGES to make this experiment work.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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< First, it is garbage, and as vicious as the previous posts.>

I see nothing vicious in simply asking someone to substantiate their claim
and even offering a financial incentive should that claim prove good.  

I dislike political arguments - as Mr Allan well knows - I have had the
privilege of meeting him several times and have been struck by his
dedication and tireless work towards a worthwhile cause - but he *did* say
that he could back up his claims.  

I'm as interested as anyone in finding a solution to the energy
crisis/pollution crisis/being ripped off by petroleum companies and
patronised by big, blonde gas station managers who think I don't know how
to unscrew my car's fuel cap crisis.....I'd like to see his claims come
good.....we all would.

Why do you have problems with that?

- Soo

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At 06:18 PM 8/20/98 -0400, you wrote:
><Garbage like this does not belong here.>
>
>It might be construed as garbage if it was mere talk, but from what I have
>read here, Mr Rothwell has issued a perfectly legitimate and fair challenge
>for the party of the first part to substantiate their claim.
>
>I'm not a scientist - perhaps you aren't either, I don't know - but I don't
>have a problem with this and I doubt that the majority of subscribers to
>this list will either.  
>

I agree Soo. Jed has legitimately thrown down the gauntlet, and I'm with
him on this one. Let Mr. Allan put up or shut up.

--Lynn

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At 05:57 PM 8/20/98 -0500, you wrote:

>The floor is open for suggested CHANGES to make this experiment work.
>

What makes you think it ISN'T working?

--Lynn

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Within the last year somebody here was describing their confidence that
"negative viscosity" was the key to free energy.  Is that person here
currently?  If so, are they familiar with the work by "ZPE"?


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

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On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, William Beaty wrote:
Within the last year somebody here was describing their confidence that
"negative viscosity" was the key to free energy.  Is that person here
currently?  If so, are they familiar with the work by "ZPE"?
--------------------------
AND is he in Texas??
finger: zpe pdq.net

PDQ.net (HOUSTONBALLET-DOM)				     HOUSTONBALLET.COM
PDQ.net (PDQPLUS-DOM)						   PDQPLUS.NET
PDQ.net (HOUSTONLOSTPETS-DOM)				   HOUSTONLOSTPETS.COM
PDQ.net Inc. (ZONETALK-DOM)					  ZONETALK.COM
PDQ.net, Incorporated (PDQ4-DOM)				       PDQ.NET

-=se=-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 19:19:37 1998
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Subject: Re: "negative viscosity"
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Hello,

At 06:24 PM 8/20/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Within the last year somebody here was describing their confidence that
>"negative viscosity" was the key to free energy.  Is that person here
>currently?  If so, are they familiar with the work by "ZPE"?

I found this post to vortex from back in March concerning negative viscosity.
hhhhhmmmmmm  ?   :)


>
>At 10:15 AM 3/27/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Michael T Huffman wrote:
>>         As for this form of vortex movement having the ability to carry
with
>> it its own means of power generation, well...  If you could enlighten us as
>> to how exactly that is supposed to work, I think that one of use could
dream
>> up a machine that would be able to take advantage of it. 
>
>I think that is the question everyone is trying to figure out.  I am making a
>specific effort to do just that.  Many questions, a couple of promising
>theories, some interpretationally relevant experimental results, but not much
>more than that right now.  I call it energy density gradients, others have
>referred to it as negative viscosity.  Both are hypothetical, hopefully
not for
>long.
> 
>> In my opinion, the entire computer industry has completely flipped
>> out on its own hype, and very few people really understand what is going on
>> in these increasingly complex software/hardware combinations anymore.  
>
>Couldn't agree more.  Sorry to hear of your difficulties.  Been there done
>that, more than I care to remember.  There was a time not too long ago when I
>was up to my elbows in various computer carcasses on a daily basis.  I
shifted
>back to mechanical engineering to escape the insanity of it all.  To quote
Jack
>in the movie 'As Good as it Gets',  "Go peddle crazy somewhere else, we're
all
>full up here."  8^)
>
>Like the website.  Keep up the good work.
>
>
>-- 
>John E. Steck
>Prototype Tool Engineering
>Motorola CSS, Libertyville
>


Ben Tammetta

***********************************************************************
A d v a n c e d     I n t e r n e t     S o l u t i o n s
Internet Marketing and Electronic Commerce Technologies
4060 Peachtree Rd., NE, Ste. 227, Atlanta GA 30319
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Gnorts!

On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, William Beaty wrote:
Within the last year somebody here was describing their confidence that
"negative viscosity" was the key to free energy.  Is that person here
currently?  If so, are they familiar with the work by "ZPE"?
=======
Then Steve Ekwall found the website in Houston by; finger: zpe pdq.net
=======
William Ladin, Ladin Consulting Company...doesn't ring a bell, must be
hired guns to do the work..worth a call??
-- 
           Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker keelynet.com
         http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
      Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>, <rl_brodzinski@pnl.gov>
Subject: Re: Electron-Proton "Ring Toss" Puzzle. Electron Ringers?
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:37:44 -0600
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Robin,

I think the mass of the neutron is easily established by knowing precisely
the energy required to separate it from a deuteron or other nucleus. The
proton and deuteron  are easily "weighed" with a mass spectrometer.

However, the mass of neutral hydrogen would have to be inferred by weighing
the H2+ ion and doing some division.

Again:
Hydrogen 1.00794(7) AMU (CRC published value)
Neutron  1.008665 AMU
Proton   1.007825 AMU
Electron 0.000550 AMU
Antineutrino ??? Ask Ron Brodzinski :-)
Mass loss  0.00029 AMU (about 0.270 Mev)

Where does the published 0.7825 Mev decay energy come from, except by
measuring the velocity of  the electron and assuming that the antineutrino
is carrying off the difference (2/3)?

This still poses the possibility that the electron-Proton binding energy is
such that
the String-Circle Electron is bound to the proton by as much as 0.511 Mev
and oscillates in energy/radius
(2.81E-15/5.29E-11 meters, W = kq^2/R)at the Bohr "orbital" frequencies, by
exchanging energy with the 3 Quarks in the proton.

How do you know what Electron-Proton binding energy is,if it oscillates
between 0.511
mev and 13.6 ev?

Regards,   Frederick






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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Electron-Proton "Ring Toss" Puzzle. Electron Ringers?
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 03:12:52 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:37:44 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

>Robin,
>
>I think the mass of the neutron is easily established by knowing precisely
>the energy required to separate it from a deuteron or other nucleus. The

Unfortunately the average mass / nucleon varies from isotope to
isotope, so I don't think this method can be used.

>proton and deuteron  are easily "weighed" with a mass spectrometer.
>
>However, the mass of neutral hydrogen would have to be inferred by weighing
>the H2+ ion and doing some division.

I believe they simply add the mass of an electron to that of H2+ for
the mass of the molecule (Is that what you meant?). However one could
also consider using a mass spec on bare protons, and adding the
electron mass, to obtain the mass of the atom.

>
>Again:
>Hydrogen 1.00794(7) AMU (CRC published value)

The CRC is the only source I know of that disagrees with everyone
else.

Try http://csa5.lbl.gov/%7Efchu/toi.html and 

http://necs01.dne.bnl.gov/CoN/nuc/H/H1.shtml 

>Neutron  1.008665 AMU
>Proton   1.007825 AMU
>Electron 0.000550 AMU
>Antineutrino ??? Ask Ron Brodzinski :-)
>Mass loss  0.00029 AMU (about 0.270 Mev)
>
>Where does the published 0.7825 Mev decay energy come from, except by
>measuring the velocity of  the electron and assuming that the antineutrino
>is carrying off the difference (2/3)?

Presumably, occasionally the electron gets all the energy, so it could
be determined from the maximum of the electron energy spectrum.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 20:21:34 1998
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Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:21:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: "negative viscosity"
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On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, Steve Ekwall wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, William Beaty wrote:
> Within the last year somebody here was describing their confidence that
> "negative viscosity" was the key to free energy.  Is that person here
> currently?  If so, are they familiar with the work by "ZPE"?
> --------------------------
> AND is he in Texas??
> finger: zpe pdq.net
> 
> PDQ.net (HOUSTONBALLET-DOM)				     HOUSTONBALLET.COM


If they don't want to be found, they wouldn't put their website in their
home town.


Anyway...   I was struck by the term "negative viscosity", since that is
EXACTLY what fluid vortex "F/E" would be.  Yet for all our interest in
vortex anomalies, very few people ever use the term "negative viscosity".
I hoped that someone would have some clue about ZPE's work.

I wish ZPE well, but I don't have high hopes.  Yet another attempt to stay
secret, yet bring off a successful invention.  History shows me that
inventor secrecy often prevents success in conventional areas.  In the F/E
arena, inventor secrecy has a 100% unbeaten record for suppressing
discoveries.  Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.  Why not
try a different route?

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 20:54:51 1998
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Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 22:55:55 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 3 results
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At 04:54 PM 8/20/98 -0700, Lynn Kurtz wrote:

>>The floor is open for suggested CHANGES to make this experiment work.
>
>What makes you think it ISN'T working?

Good point, Lynn.  Everything about this experiment is apparently working
except for one thing.  

The W cathode is incandescing nicely.  The cell is rumbling deeply.  The
"double-boiler" heat exchanger is conveying heat away from the cell
adequately.  The water-flow calorimeter is measuring the heat output
accurately.  The power analyzer is measuring electrical input power
accurately.  The system computer is generally surviving the intense
electrical noise associated with this experiment.

There's just no excess heat.

It's a good thing we can dismiss my results as meaningless.  Otherwise we
might have been tempted to question the validity of the observations of the
other incandescent W investigators.  Of course, that would have been
blasphemy.  Once an excess energy result has been reported, it is destined
to live forever.  An infinite number of negative replication efforts are
required to disprove it.

Scott


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 20:55:31 1998
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Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 22:21:27 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: "negative viscosity"
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At 06:24 PM 8/20/98 -0700, William Beaty wrote:
>
>Within the last year somebody here was describing their confidence that
>"negative viscosity" was the key to free energy.  Is that person here
>currently?  If so, are they familiar with the work by "ZPE"?

It was Larry Wharton.  Larry...?

Scott

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 20 21:11:40 1998
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Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 3 results
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At 10:55 PM 8/20/98 -0500, Scott wrote:

>There's just no excess heat.
>
>It's a good thing we can dismiss my results as meaningless.  Otherwise we
>might have been tempted to question the validity of the observations of the
>other incandescent W investigators.  Of course, that would have been
>blasphemy.  Once an excess energy result has been reported, it is destined
>to live forever.  An infinite number of negative replication efforts are
>required to disprove it.
>

   Gee Scott.  With such disparagement, of course quite necessary to
prop up your company's (mathematically unsound, and special relativity
inconsistent) ZPEv hypothesis,

   Why dont you share what you really found with the KS beads at low
input power level with the group?   

   Then, why dont you share with them they you introduced a deliberate
non-zero offset, even though the beads may have had peak outputs
where your non-zero offset was? 

   And finally, why you never seem to use the good suggestions made to you
from better insulation, to cleaning up your power supplies' ripples, to
driving your systems at the correct operating points.  

   
    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 02:10:09 1998
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Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>, <rl_brodzinski@pnl.gov>
Subject: Re: Neutron Decay Borrowing From ZPE?
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To: Vortex

In going over the numbers for the decay of a neutron to a proton, electron,
and antineutrino:

Neutron mass      1.008665 AMU
Proton mass       1.007825 AMU
Electron mass     0.00055  AMU
Antineutrino mass 0.????   AMU

Mass loss         0.000290 AMU

Hydrogen-Electron Mass 1.00794 (7) (published)should be:
1.007825 + 0.000550 = 1.0083750 AMU.

Stored in the ZPE closet?

The published value for neutron decay energy is
0.7825 Mev (0.00084050 AMU).

Where did it get the 0.00084050 - 0.000290 AMU = 0.000550 AMU (.511 Mev or
so)?  :-)

Regards,    Frederick

Pr

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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:10:24 +0100 (BST)
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Throw the gauntlet back.

Touche or is that touchy?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 02:43:33 1998
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To: Vortex

According to my Highly Refined Calculations on
binding energies, Whenever any bond, Nuclear or Molecular, is stressed or
broken,there is more energy released than required for the fracture or
stress.

Going by that, a metal rod in a tensile test
machine (INSTRON) with a water calorimeter setup, should show o-u energy
release.Or a rubber band.   :-)

I think staying up most of the night to keep animals from walking on a
freshly poured concrete sidewalk, has gotten to me.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 04:00:19 -0600
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Testing for Intrinsic O-U in stressed materials.

http://www.instron.com/index1.html

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[InternetShortcut]
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 05:01:04 1998
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Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 3 results
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At 12:03 AM 8/21/98 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>   Why dont you share what you really found with the KS beads at low
>input power level with the group?   

I'd rather watch you carry the torch on this one, Mitch.  Your "analysis"
of my data has given me valuable insights into the origins of some of the
reported excess heat results.

Scott

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 05:50:54 1998
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At 07:02 AM 8/21/98 -0500, Scott wrote:
>At 12:03 AM 8/21/98 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>
>>   Why dont you share what you really found with the KS beads at low
>>input power level with the group?   
>
>I'd rather watch you carry the torch on this one, Mitch.  Your "analysis"
>of my data has given me valuable insights into the origins of some of the
>reported excess heat results.
>

   Perhaps you will let us know what happened when you went back
and reexamined the issue, given that you really want to find if
o/u reports are real?


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 06:07:08 1998
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:08:08 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Neutron Decay Borrowing From ZPE?
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>, <rl_brodzinski@pnl.gov>
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At 03:03 8/21/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>To: Vortex
>
>In going over the numbers for the decay of a neutron to a proton, electron,
>and antineutrino:
>
>Neutron mass      1.008665 AMU
>Proton mass       1.007825 AMU

my ref* says	 1.007276 for the proton
your value is for the H1 atom.

Scott

* 1998 Physics Today Buyers Guide has a listing of the latest recommended
values of the fundamental physical constants.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 08:08:24 1998
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Inc. W Run 3 results
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:04:46 -0700
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Scott
	It would be worthwhile to establish a dialog with others who found
OU in their setups, and see how their methods differ from yours. What is the
duration of the noise-like spikes in your setup. I mean the individual
pulses? What is the sampling rate of your power meter?

Hank
> ----------
> From: 	Scott Little[SMTP:little eden.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, August 20, 1998 8:55 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: Inc. W Run 3 results
> 
> At 04:54 PM 8/20/98 -0700, Lynn Kurtz wrote:
> 
> >>The floor is open for suggested CHANGES to make this experiment work.
> >
> >What makes you think it ISN'T working?
> 
> Good point, Lynn.  Everything about this experiment is apparently working
> except for one thing.  
> 
> The W cathode is incandescing nicely.  The cell is rumbling deeply.  The
> "double-boiler" heat exchanger is conveying heat away from the cell
> adequately.  The water-flow calorimeter is measuring the heat output
> accurately.  The power analyzer is measuring electrical input power
> accurately.  The system computer is generally surviving the intense
> electrical noise associated with this experiment.
> 
> There's just no excess heat.
> 
> It's a good thing we can dismiss my results as meaningless.  Otherwise we
> might have been tempted to question the validity of the observations of
> the
> other incandescent W investigators.  Of course, that would have been
> blasphemy.  Once an excess energy result has been reported, it is destined
> to live forever.  An infinite number of negative replication efforts are
> required to disprove it.
> 
> Scott
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 08:16:07 1998
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From: ZPE <zpe pdq.net>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: "negative viscosity"
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:15:04 -0500
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Very good, gentlemen! (Applause)  Your efforts to disclose my identity =
are paying off!  However, I must point out that just because my web site =
resides in Houston, does not necessarily indicate that I reside in =
Houston.  Then again, maybe keeping my identity secret is meant to be a =
temporary measure to throw the enemy off-track for a short amount of =
time.  Or maybe I want you to think I want to temporarily keep my =
identity secret.  Or... well, I'm sure you can think up lots of =
possibilities on your own.  While seeking out my identity may serve to =
satisfy your curiosities, it also serves the purposes of the enemy and I =
KNOW you don't want to do that... do you?!  This detective game is =
really fun and stuff but I want to make you a promise.  Whether I get =
funding and do not disclose my work in ten weeks (October 28th) or I do =
NOT get funding and DO disclose my work, I will definitely be letting =
everyone know who I am.  How else will I ultimately develop the =
reputation I will need to advance my work in other areas?  Having said =
that, I must ask that my "friends" leave the identity detective work for =
the enemy... please.

Best Wishes,
ZPE
http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe


-----Original Message-----
From:	William Beaty [SMTP:billb eskimo.com]
Sent:	Thursday, August 20, 1998 10:22 PM
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	Re: "negative viscosity"

On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, Steve Ekwall wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, William Beaty wrote:
> Within the last year somebody here was describing their confidence =
that
> "negative viscosity" was the key to free energy.  Is that person here
> currently?  If so, are they familiar with the work by "ZPE"?
> --------------------------
> AND is he in Texas??
> finger: zpe pdq.net
>=20
> PDQ.net (HOUSTONBALLET-DOM)				     HOUSTONBALLET.COM


If they don't want to be found, they wouldn't put their website in their
home town.


Anyway...   I was struck by the term "negative viscosity", since that is
EXACTLY what fluid vortex "F/E" would be.  Yet for all our interest in
vortex anomalies, very few people ever use the term "negative =
viscosity".
I hoped that someone would have some clue about ZPE's work.

I wish ZPE well, but I don't have high hopes.  Yet another attempt to =
stay
secret, yet bring off a successful invention.  History shows me that
inventor secrecy often prevents success in conventional areas.  In the =
F/E
arena, inventor secrecy has a 100% unbeaten record for suppressing
discoveries.  Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.  Why not
try a different route?

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) =
)))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST =
website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird =
science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L =
webhead-L

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 08:42:06 1998
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:36:17 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 3 results
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
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To: Vortex; >INTERNET:little eden.com

Scott Little, feeling frustrated, writes:

     It's a good thing we can dismiss my results as meaningless.  Otherwise
     we might have been tempted to question the validity of the observations
     of the other incandescent W investigators.  Of course, that would have
     been blasphemy.  Once an excess energy result has been reported, it is
     destined to live forever.  An infinite number of negative replication
     efforts are required to disprove it.

Yes, peculiar results do live forever on the Internet. And they evolve beyond
recognition. People think I reported that Griggs has a stand alone, self-
sustaining machine. On the other side, the famous 1989 "Big Three" negative
CF experiments will live forever too, no matter how many times we point out
the errors and fraud in those results.

However, in my estimation, and in our magazine, results must be replicated and
independently replicated or they fade away. We report failures and problems as
often as success. Our article about these experiments featured a late breaking
report from the French AEC that they could not replicate. Scott is being
sarcastic, but at least in the pages of I.E. no serious, properly documented
result is treated as "meaningless." So far, incandescent W excess heat has
been observed by three groups and not observed by two groups: Little and the
French AEC. It seems to me there are two possibilities:

1. The effect is real but it comes and goes, like superconductivity, Pd CF, or
incandescence circa 1877. Something about the materials or conditions makes it
happen or not happen: temperature, acidity, power density, trace elements
mixed with the tungsten, power density, something about the plasma . . . Who
knows? We do not know the controlling parameters. We have devoted only a few
weeks to this research. We have not even looked at a mass spectrograph or
performed a post-mortem analysis of materials. We have not tried to measure
critical parameters or compare methodologies. Material and control problems in
industrial chemistry often require years of analysis costing millions, and
thousands of test runs. Plasma is very complicated stuff; the hot-fusion
program has struggled for 50 years to understand it. You may need to bring
their expert knowledge of plasma into the research project, to understand the
plasma "whaa-whaa" fluctuations, the plasma - metal interface, and other
mysteries. Kellogg began to describe this phenomenon in a rigorous fashion.
His work must be extended, and his hypotheses will have to be tested and made
into theories before we get a handle on this. I think it is fair to say we
have not begun a serious investigation, and we have no funding, ability or
plans to do so.

2. The effect is an artifact of the two methods of calorimetry performed by
Ohmori and Mallove. This would be much easier to ascertain than item #1.

If Scott feels like devoting more time to this, I think he should investigate
item 2. He knows a lot about calorimetry, but he has no equipment and no
expertise investigating materials, plasma, or the other issues relating to #
1. It seems to me that to look for an artifact in calorimetry, you start by
replicating the calorimetry. You do the experiment the way Ohmori or Mallove
did it, using the same methods of calorimetry, and look for the same (bugus?)
results. Then move the experiment back to the more sophisticated calorimeter.
If you see apparent heat in one case and none in the other, you are close to
discovering the error.

You might approach item #1, or at least sketch out the problem space, to use a
tired cliche. One obvious step is to get a sample of tungsten from Ohmori
and/or Mallove and try again. If this effect is real and it is anything like
CF, materials are by far the most important parameter. The best illustration
of that is the Miles data, compiled over many years with many samples of
palladium. With one source the success rate was 2 out of 34, with another 7
out of 8 samples worked. Overall, 28 out of 94 worked.

Whether the problem is #1 or #2, I think it would help to compare notes with
Ohmori, Biberian, Wall and others. As I often say, these experiments are
harder than they look. I have translated and written up various experiments
for I.E., and in-depth descriptions of the work at SRI and China Lake. I
carefully reading and transcribed 80 pages of China Lake material, and I heard
three lectures by Miles and asked many questions, yet I still found that I
misunderstood important procedures and things like the design of the helium
collection flask. I summarized my questions and confusion in memos, then I
spoke with Miles, Storms and others again. Communication is vital! Also, as
general rule, if you cannot think of ten ways your tungsten experiment might
be different from Ohmori's or Mallove's, and 50 tests that would pin-point
the differences, but which unfortunately would take the rest of your
life . . . you are not doing your homework.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 09:59:45 1998
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:43:39 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Calling Allan's bluff
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To: Vortex

Mitchell Swartz writes:

     Garbage like this does not belong here.

Fraud does not belong here. John Allan made a transparent attempt to swindle
me and the other readers of this forum. He wrote: "if Mr Rothwell wish to
commission a retrofit on board electrolysis hydrogen conversion kit . . . I
will be happy to fulfil his wishes." He is offering to sell me a machine which
he knows damn well does not exist. That is against the rules of this forum,
and it is a violation of criminal statutes in the U.K. and the U.S. It is a
very serious matter.

Or if the machine does exist, Allen is now $10,000 richer, minus travel and
material expenses. So why should he complain, and why should you? I have given
him what he wants. I have done all that he requested. He said he would be
"happy to fulfil" my wishes. Good! Let him do it, and I shall compensate him
handsomely. Does he doubt my word or my ability to pay? I shall wire-transfer
the money to Mr. Allan's account as soon as I hear from my agent in England.
He will have the money irrevocably in his possession before he leaves the
machine with us.

There are only two possibilities: Allan has what he claims and he will do what
he promised, or he is a thief.

As for you, Swartz, I asked you how electrolysis can move the car, since it
only coverts and never generates energy. You evaded the issue and posted a
bunch of preposterous double-talk in response. It is a simple question, and
you should answer it or shut up. Your claims are absurd, like saying that an
electrical inverter moves the car. ELECTROLYSIS IS NOT A SOURCE OF ENERGY. If
the car does move, the process cannot be ordinary electrolysis and it must be
o-u by definition. I think you know as well as Allan does that the car is a
malicious fraud. Perhaps you in cahoots with him. Perhaps he paying you a 10%
commission for every sucker he dupes. Whether you are actively participating
in this scam or supporting it from the sidelines, your behavior is
reprehensible, dishonest and disgraceful. If Allan refuses to follow through
on his promise, or if he comes back and demands money in advance -- as I
expect he will -- both of you should be tossed out of this forum and
investigated by the police for criminal conspiracy to commit fraud. The Meyer
travesty has gone on long enough!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 10:50:14 1998
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:14:47 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: "negative viscosity"
Resent-Message-ID: <"OJUNn1.0.mQ.p9Rtr" mx1>
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At 06:24 PM 8/20/98 -0700, William Beaty wrote:


>Within the last year somebody here was describing their confidence
that

>"negative viscosity" was the key to free energy.  Is that person here

>currently?  If so, are they familiar with the work by "ZPE"?

>


I looked at the ZPE web page.  There was insufficient information to
make any judgement.  The usual motivation for not releasing information
is the non existence of any actual device or viable theory and I would
guess this is the case here.

  I thought that I would add a few comments about negative viscosity
here.  The concept of negative viscosity is generally thought to have
been introduced by Lorentz and by Starr.  They show its existence
through empirical evidence and did not have a theoretical basis.  The
concept is known to investigators in the field of fluid dynamics and
has not been lost as ZPE claims.  The belief is that negative viscosity
does not violate the second law of thermodynamics but there is no proof
of that.

  In an upcoming paper I show that negative viscosity may result in
rotating fluids such as a vortex.  The essential first step is to
calculate the effect of rotation on heat conduction.  I did this by
inserting the Coriolis force in a complete set of moment fluid dynamic
equations such as appears in Gombosi.  The modified heat flux may then
be inserted into the second order equation for the stress tensor to
give the effect of negative viscosity.  The effect of rotation is
essential for the generation of this type of negative viscosity. 
Chechkin et al have demonstrated the existence of negative viscosity
for the case of a fluid with Rossby waves.  Rossby waves can only exist
when there is an interaction with the Coriolis force and their result
is consistent with my result.



References



<fontfamily><param>New_York</param>Chechkin, A. V. , Kopp, M. I. &
Yanovsky, V. V. 1998  Negative viscosity for Rossby wave and drift wave
turbulence. <italic>J. of Exp. and Theoret. Phys.
</italic><bold>86</bold>,
357-366.</fontfamily><fontfamily><param>Times</param>


</fontfamily><fontfamily><param>New_York</param>Gombosi, T. I. ,1994 
<italic>Gaskinetic theory</italic>,  Cambridge: Cambridge University
Press.</fontfamily><fontfamily><param>Times</param>

<italic>

</italic></fontfamily><fontfamily><param>New_York</param>Lorentz, E. N.
1967 The Nature and Theory of General Circulation in the Atmosphere. 
WMO Publication No. 218, T.P. 115,  World Meteorological Organization,
Geneva Switzerland.</fontfamily><fontfamily><param>Times</param>


</fontfamily><fontfamily><param>New_York</param>Starr, V. P. 1968
<italic>Physics of Negative Viscosity Phenomena</italic>.
McGraw-Hill.</fontfamily><fontfamily><param>Times</param>

</fontfamily>



Lawrence E. Wharton

NASA/GSFC code 913

Greenbelt MD 20771

(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 10:51:44 1998
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:43:25 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 3 results
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To: Vortex; >INTERNET:little eden.com

This just struck me . . . I think Scott reported that he is now able to
generate the plasma and have it stick around for an hour. That is much
longer than anyone else I know. After ten minutes of running in the videos
I saw, the tungsten cathode was a pile of debris on the bottom of the test
tube. Scott appears to have tamed the reaction somehow. He has found a way
to create plasma in a benign, quiet reaction. That's grand, but ummm . . .
it may defeat the purpose. Whatever destroyed the cathode may have been
linked to the excess heat. I guess the cathodes are disintegrated by
cavitation or high heat. Both have been linked to CF. Eliminating the damage
may eliminate the effect. Biberian et al. showed that you can have plasma
with no excess heat. What happened to their cathode?

This brings to mind McKubre's calorimeter. Some say it stamps out rapid
temperature swings and extreme conditions which prevents the CF phonomenon.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 10:54:43 1998
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:24:14 -0400
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Subject: Jed Rothwell on the attack
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At 12:43 PM 8/21/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Perhaps you in cahoots with him. Perhaps he paying you a 10%
>commission for every sucker he dupes. Whether you are actively participating
>in this scam or supporting it from the sidelines, your behavior is
>reprehensible, dishonest and disgraceful. If Allan refuses to follow through
>on his promise, or if he comes back and demands money in advance -- as I
>expect he will -- both of you should be tossed out of this forum and
>investigated by the police for criminal conspiracy to commit fraud. 

   No. 

   No. 

   The only reprehensible and dishonest behavior is by, and has been
by, Jed Rothwell who too often deviates from his otherwise good prose
to lapse into using his character attacks and bizarre sudden twists
of what was said.  

   Everyone else seems to either be trying to doing science which is
very difficult in this field for several reasons or asking reasonable 
scientific questions and inquiries to explore these phenomena or the
history regarding them.  



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 10:56:36 1998
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 07:53:51 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Enemies of the Vortex (WAS: "negative viscosity")
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ZPE -

   >  Having said that, I must ask that my "friends" leave
   >  the identity detective work for the enemy... please.

Since you'd rather not disclose your own identy, how about disclosing the
specific identity of "the enemy"? Surely you have no reason to protect
them, and disclosure could only help broaden the awareness of just who this
enemy is. After all, these are dangerous times and we all need to protect
ourselves.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 11:09:52 1998
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Subject: Vortex Tube / ZPE - FreeEnergy here soon?
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http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 11:10:29 1998
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Message-ID: <007701bdcd2e$b66c9140$96d2989e david-callaghan>
From: "David Callaghan" <DCallaghan CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Neutron Decay Borrowing From ZPE?
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:08:03 +0100
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Hi All

I'm new to this list.  I've been off 'real' physics for a long time but it's
nice to see that we still have latest recommended values for 'constants'.

Anyway, I have the following values for neutron decay

Neutron mass    1.008665000

Proton mass      -1.007275000
Electron mass   -0.000549000
Neutrino mass   -0.000000032   (zero rest mass - pah!)

                       =   0.000840968

I think we need to revise the 'constants' somewhat.  Or I need putting
straight!

I don't have most of the books I used to have.  The values I have above are
from some software I wrote to calculate neutrino mass.  Have there been
advances in physics over the last ten years that have calculated the mass of
a neutrino?

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>


>* 1998 Physics Today Buyers Guide has a listing of the latest recommended
>values of the fundamental physical constants.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 11:17:26 1998
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From: "David Callaghan" <DCallaghan CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Fw: UPDATED web site - VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:14:47 +0100
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Though I would pass this message on.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Callaghan <DCallaghan CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk>
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Friday 21 August 1998 05:43
Subject: Re: UPDATED web site - VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED


>Hi ALL!
>
>I have compared the writing style from the ZPE web site and various
messages
>from ZPE against all the mails I have stored on my PC.
>
>My writing analysis software immediately picked many of the mails from one
>person as being a (collective) 93% match for text written by the alias ZPE.
>The next closest match was 72%.  More text would give more accurate
results.
>
>If ZPE is who I think he is, I would SERIOUSLY doubt that he would be
>playing a joke.
>
>However, I will respect his wishes for now and not reveal who I think he
is.
>Even though I have more evidence pointing towards this person, I'm probably
>wrong anyway.
>
>Best Wishes,
>David Callaghan
>
>PS.  This message comes up with a 90% match, and I can guarantee it's not
>ME...
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 11:21:27 1998
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At 12:43 PM 8/21/98 -0400, Jed Frothwell wrote:

>Mitchell Swartz writes:
>
>     Garbage like this does not belong here.
>
>Fraud does not belong here. John Allan made a transparent attempt to swindle
>me and the other readers of this forum. He wrote: "if Mr Rothwell wish to
>commission a retrofit on board electrolysis hydrogen conversion kit . . . I
>will be happy to fulfil his wishes." He is offering to sell me a machine
which
>he knows damn well does not exist. That is against the rules of this forum,
>and it is a violation of criminal statutes in the U.K. and the U.S. It is a
>very serious matter.

    What is so difficult about an on-board electrolysis system, Mr. Rothwell?

    Or is Mr. Rothwell now going to imply Mr. Allan claimed it was "cold
fusion" when
he did not, like Jed did with Mr. Meyer?


   Mr. Rothwell's libel of Mr. Allan because he asked him questions about
an electrolysis
technology is a potentially serious matter.   

    Furthermore and finally, electrolysis is not fraud.   

 ================================================================


>There are only two possibilities: Allan has what he claims and he will do
what
>he promised, or he is a thief.


   Take your BS, Mr. Rothwell, to spf.  You are making this up.


 ================================================================



>As for you, Swartz, I asked you how electrolysis can move the car, since it
>only coverts and never generates energy. You evaded the issue and posted a
>bunch of preposterous double-talk in response. It is a simple question, and
>you should answer it or shut up.


     Take your BS, Mr. Rothwell, to spf.  You are making this up, too.

     I asked you a question too, and as usual
you attempt to turn it all around to suit your purposes.


 ================================================================


> Your claims are absurd, like saying that an
>electrical inverter moves the car. ELECTROLYSIS IS NOT A SOURCE OF ENERGY. 

   I NEVER said it was.  But then with Jed it hardly matters what
is said.   

   Mr. Rothwell should take his absurd ad hominem filled antiscientific
uneducated back-stabbing of o/u and cf investigators ranging from
Dr. Fleischmann to Russ George, and his back-stabbing of dead individuals
such as Mr. Meyer, and his back-stabbing of those who ask questions like
Mr. Allan elsewhere.   Every time Mr. Frothwell continues this thread it
seems 
he merely demonstrates his utter disregard for the truth and his flagrant
contempt for the agreement regarding no ad hominems on vortex.

   Res ipse loquitur


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 12:33:01 1998
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Subject: Re: Electron in Crossed E & B Fields 
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:35:38 -0400
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 John Winterflood wrote:
(snip of  a clear and comprehensive explanation of why Kainz's proposed OU
system cannot work)
>
>Foiled again!
>
Thanks John, my sentiments exactly. I think that a clear understanding
of where these proposals fail can be an important precursor to finding
an idea that works.
George Holz  - george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 15:28:20 1998
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Neutron Decay Borrowing From ZPE?
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:47:15 -0600
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-----Original Message-----
From: David Callaghan <DCallaghan CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Friday, August 21, 1998 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: Neutron Decay Borrowing From ZPE?

Welcome to Oz, David, or is it Oztin?   :-) Thanks for the mass numbers.

BTW, there are several Wizards here and a Good Witch who is Soo Nice.  :-)

Best,   Frederick

David Callaghan wrote:


>Hi All
>
>I'm new to this list.  I've been off 'real' physics for a long time but
it's
>nice to see that we still have latest recommended values for 'constants'.
>
>Anyway, I have the following values for neutron decay
>
>Neutron mass    1.008665000
>
>Proton mass      -1.007275000
>Electron mass   -0.000549000
>Neutrino mass   -0.000000032   (zero rest mass - pah!)
>
>                       =   0.000840968
>
>I think we need to revise the 'constants' somewhat.  Or I need putting
>straight!
>
>I don't have most of the books I used to have.  The values I have above are
>from some software I wrote to calculate neutrino mass.  Have there been
>advances in physics over the last ten years that have calculated the mass
of
>a neutrino?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
>
>
>>* 1998 Physics Today Buyers Guide has a listing of the latest recommended
>>values of the fundamental physical constants.
>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 15:29:45 1998
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At 12:43 8/21/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>This just struck me . . . I think Scott reported that he is now able to
>generate the plasma and have it stick around for an hour. That is much
>longer than anyone else I know.

An excellent point, Jed.  In my initial experimentation, I rejected the
configurations that self-destructed quickly, seeking one that would run
long enough to be measured in my calorimeter.  Maybe I unconsciously
selected against the very attributes that are o-u.  I'll have to reexamine
the more destructive configurations again....

>From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>

>What is the
>duration of the noise-like spikes in your setup. I mean the individual
>pulses?

I'm not sure which ones you're referring to, Hank.  Since I added the
filter capacitors, there isn't much noise-like spiking anymore.  Before I
added the caps, I looked at the noise and was surprised to see it ranging
out to the limit of my scope (100 MHz)...?

>What is the sampling rate of your power meter?

It's not fixed.  Clarke-Hess says, "The asynchronous sampling frequency is
controlled by the system microprocessor in such a fashion that neither it
not any of its harmonics can come close to the measured input frequency or
any of its harmonics." The maximum sampling rate is indicated by the "DC to
more than 400 kHz" accurate operating range of the instrument.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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From: ZPE <zpe pdq.net>
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Larry Wharton wrote:
* The usual motivation for not releasing information is the non =
existence of any actual device or viable theory and I would guess this =
is the case here.

This is not the case, Larry.  What could we possibly gain if it were?  =
As I mentioned in previous replies, we will accept no "blind faith" =
investments or contributions so without a viable theory there is nothing =
whatsoever to gain.   As stated on our web site, we will give full =
disclosure in ten weeks, IF we are not able to get funded.

* The concept of negative viscosity is generally thought to have been =
introduced by Lorentz and by Starr.  They show its existence through =
empirical evidence and did not have a theoretical basis.

Not only do we have a theoretical basis for it, we have proof for what =
its true nature is.

* The concept is known to investigators in the field of fluid dynamics =
and has not been lost as ZPE claims.

Has not been lost?  To what are you referring?

* The belief is that negative viscosity does not violate the second law =
of thermodynamics but there is no proof of that.

Correct.  No proof will be found.

* In an upcoming paper I show that negative viscosity may result in =
rotating fluids such as a vortex.

You are correct.  Negative viscosity DOES exist in the vortex phenomenon =
and we can prove this as well.

ZPE
http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe




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From: ZPE <zpe pdq.net>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Enemies of the Vortex (WAS: "negative viscosity")
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:39:05 -0500
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No problem and I apologize.  I assumed the identity of the "enemy" to be =
obvious.  The "enemy" I refer to are all those companies and individuals =
that are against the advent of the new energy revolution.  While a =
certain degree of assumption on my part is involved, I believe some of =
these to be today's oil companies and any other "entity" that has major =
investments sunk into the fossil fuel energy markets.  Wouldn't everyone =
reading this agree?

Best Wishes,
ZPE
http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe


-----Original Message-----
From:	Rick Monteverde [SMTP:monteverde worldnet.att.net]
Sent:	Friday, August 21, 1998 12:54 PM
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	Enemies of the Vortex (WAS: "negative viscosity")

ZPE -

   >  Having said that, I must ask that my "friends" leave
   >  the identity detective work for the enemy... please.

Since you'd rather not disclose your own identy, how about disclosing =
the
specific identity of "the enemy"? Surely you have no reason to protect
them, and disclosure could only help broaden the awareness of just who =
this
enemy is. After all, these are dangerous times and we all need to =
protect
ourselves.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


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------ =_NextPart_000_01BDCD19.D8C7EF60--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 16:06:51 1998
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 16:07:41 1998
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From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
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Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

<description of paradox snipped>

Alright, I (and a person who emailed me) thought about something today
that will affect my 'paradoxical situation': acceleration.

So, we revise it a bit, and take into account acceleration. Here's the
strange part though: time would still be required to dilate for the
moving and unmoving observer, since they are both 'moving'. If it does,
we have a serious problem: instantaneous action at a distance that
convey's time dilation information to the 'nonmoving' observer. Or, if
we find that one observer has not aged as much as the others, we have
determined that he is closer to absolute rest than the 'moving'
observer. This would seem to indicate that in contradiction to
relativity, there must be an absolute reference frame. Remember that in
order for the gamma factor to be set to precisely zero, you must be not
moving at all. Relativity clouds this a bit, and requires that you
cannot be at absolute rest because it is 'unphysical'. Therefore, the
setting of gamma is entirely frame dependant. I.E.: You aren't
priveliged, therefore can't have a gamma of zero WRT a moving observer.
He is just as priveliged as you. 

If you're thoroughly confused, good! That means you understand ;)

Best regards,
Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 16:19:17 1998
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ZPE wrote:
> Very good, gentlemen! (Applause)  Your efforts to disclose my identity are paying off! 

Hmmm.  Marc Ladin? ...or one of his minions?  8^)


 
-- 

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    John E. Steck
      Senior Mechanical Engineer
      Rapid Tooling Applications
      Motorola CE, PCS, Libertyville, IL
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 16:26:02 1998
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From: Puthoff aol.com
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:20:45 EDT
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You show files to be downloaded in this and another posting roughly same time.
My aol says I need v 2.7 but I have version 3.0, so can't download.  Can these
files (if important) be sent as added text files?

Thanks,
Hal Puthoff

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See below.  If vortex-L is flooded by hundreds of public subscribers, it
will quickly become unmanagable.

A possibility: change vortex-L into a paid-subscribers-only forum, but
forward it to a no-charge secondary list which prohibits posts.  That way
the non-serious subscribers could read messages without sending. 
Rather than make the list invitation-only, it could be remain public, and
the "serious subscribers" would be anyone willing to pay a subscription
fee.

On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Charles Platt wrote:
> I have written a long article for Wired magazine, which has a 
> circulation of around 700,000 in the United States. The 
> article discusses cold fusion, which I believe was unjustly 
> discredited and has been ignored during the past nine years 
> because of a truly remarkable "conspiracy of denial" in the 
> scientific community. 

<asks permission to mention Vortex-L and include the addr.>

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 16:40:27 1998
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William Beaty wrote:
> Within the last year somebody here was describing their confidence that
> "negative viscosity" was the key to free energy.  Is that person here
> currently?  If so, are they familiar with the work by "ZPE"?

Ben Tammetta wrote:
> I found this post to vortex from back in March concerning negative viscosity.
> hhhhhmmmmmm  ?   :)

Guilty!

I was out yesterday so I apologize for not owning up sooner.  I am one of those
advocates of the "negative velocity" concept, though I can't say I am the
originator, and I am sorry to also say I am unable to offer up any physical
evidence or data as of yet.  I am not familiar with the work of our new vortex
subscriber "ZPE".  I have gone to his/her site and I think his/her suspicions
are similar to my own so I welcome the company out on the end of my tree
limb.... 8^)  

Let me first state that my ideas are not revolutionary by any means, nor do I
claim precedence in light of this recent announcement.  I will restate that my
theories are directly borrowed form many much smarter than I, just assembled in
such a manner that makes me sit straight up in my chair and wonder if the answer
is just that easy.  If I am beaten to the punch, so be it.

I have been working on a specific design to address a hypothesis I have.  The
results of experiments with this device will likely dictate whether the next
step is even plausible.  The concept is pretty simple and I will probably be
posting specific details and construction drawings on my soon to be launched
website (domain registered, landlord still TBD).

Probably much to the disappointment of some of the better educated than I, the
foundation of my effort is based on the following theories : 

1) aether resonance structures
2) vortex action fluid dynamics with water 
3) aether dragging / energy field stiction
4) entropy reversal / negative viscosity through singularity constructs 

The results of achieving a singularity construct (if such a thing can exist) are
somewhat debatable.  All I envision at this time is gravity filtering through
base resonance phase shifting.  My primary hope that something destructive to me
or anyone else is not inadvertently created in the process.

Whether some other practical use can be made of such a construct like
levitation, energy harvesting, FTL travel, etc. is of low concern to me right
now.  All I am trying to do is generate some data, at best a proof of concept
model.  Undoubtedly success will be elusive as the operational parameters will
need to be developed along the way.

The system I envision, and what I am attempting to build, is a contained "smoke
ring" type structure.  I hope to generate a sustainable vortex construct through
the manipulation of the tangential velocity of water in a toroid.  This vortex
construct is to be the vehicle by which to determine the validity of my idea of
energy stiction and the generation of a shaped negative viscosity singularity. 
An o/u signature would be a nice bonus prize, but not the goal.  (anyone
interested in buying a distribution franchise?  <-sorry, just couldn't resist
poking the bee hive....hee hee hee) 

Why am I set on tring something so radical and highly theoretical? 
1)  To try and prove out Ross Tessien's postulate on frequency shifted condensed
aether resonance as the mechanism for gravity and mass.
2)  To try and prove out Schauberger's findings with regard to energy
accumulation and it's effects in normal space time .
3)  To quantify the effects of energy accumulation and attempt to observe a
reverse entropy state.
4)  To try and develop a SIMPLE system by which to take advantage of these
effects if any are realized.  

Tall order, high expectations, slim chance of success.... so what!  HA! 
Discourages sane people from stealing the idea.  ha ha ha 

My impression is that many physical conditions can create the effect, but few
combinations are able to maintain the critical variables over a long enough time
period to fully realize or successfully replicate the effect.  IMHO there have
been several experiments that have already operated in this manner, but the
critical variable generating elements are short lived (like using a spinning
superconductor for gravity shielding).  What is needed is a perpetual device for
on demand, robust work extraction.

Now that I've openned my mouth and stuck in my foot, the challenge now for me is
to prove I am not a raving lunatic and my that intuitions have merit.  Can't say
it hasn't been fun so far.  Who knows, the damn thing just might work.... 8^)
 

-- 

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    John E. Steck
      Senior Mechanical Engineer
      Rapid Tooling Applications
      Motorola CE, PCS, Libertyville, IL
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 17:21:01 1998
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From: energy backspace.org
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:59:41 +0100
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Gentlemen,

Let us just return for a moment to first principles and put aside the
histrionics.

• How did Stanley Meyer get his first patent relating to this water fuel
cell?

Of course, we are told that he was a self-made millionaire on the board
of a mutli-million dollar turn over company and had held board position
in a number of companies.  That he had a successul career in hi-tech
electronics engineering, completed a degree course and worked for
Battelle Foundation Institute on rocket related technology and other
systems. That he held successful patents in the development of various
different useful fields. We know that he was a self financed innovator
in the field of hydrogen technologies for over 20 years.  This is easily
checkable and is either true or false.  Or he sold motor car parts
according the Infinite Energy team report.

• But how did he get his first patent in this field?

The answer is through a legal proceedure determined by the US Government
in which he was required to bring a system in prove it worked.  The US
Patent office and other partied held and examined said device for a
couple of years before issuing a patent.  The said patent received
National Security protection for some time.  I will give you my witness
on this.

This is either true or false.  If it is true, it stand as a validation
of his claims.

Horwood and Rothwell state that the findings of all court case must be
unquestionably true and county courts are qualified to make scientific
judgements?

• Is this true or false?

Horwood cannot bring himself to admit he did not read the proceeding of
the case before engaging in his " hatchet job ", or was it Rothwell or
Tinsley or Mallove because they all seem to claim credit. I am confused.

Norman, you say that " you did not indicate that you visited Ohio ".

• Would you like to tell us about your visit to Ohio?

I have in front of me communication to a research scientist working on
Ministry of Defence contracts, a gentleman with a solid and reliable
professional standing.

The purpose of vortex-L is, I understand, to discuss and encourage
important leading edge science.

There is nothing more important in science, law and, even spirituality,
than " first principles ".

• Am I incorrect?  A statement is either true or false?


We move forward from our knowledge of what is objectively true in one of
two directions.  Truth or falsehood.  From an accurate observation of
first principles we can predict or deduce fairly accurately either an
object, or material, or even individual's past, present and future.  The
closer our observations, the more accurately we can make prediction and
deductions that come true in reality.  The tool for this we use is
probability.  On the basis of what we are observing, are these
individuals likely to tell the simple truth or obfuscate?  Do they
behave in a scientific manner or not? I do not know yet.

• Why would anyone within the scientific community not relish close
inspection of one's work and the way in which one worked?

       
=================================================================================================

Mr Horwood, I have politely asked you over a period of months to allow
me to independently test the Water Fuel Cell you have in your possession
that you used to deduce that Mr Stanley Meyer was a " liar " and a "
fraud " to ensure that you in fact accurate followed his patents. 
Despite this reasonable request you have used excuse after excuse not to
furnish me with any details of your work despite your written enthusiasm
to debunk the fruadulent Mr Meyer for once and for all.

• Is this not what you accused Mr Meyer of?



Mr Rothwell, on behalf of the Infinite Energy team.  You have accused
the Late Mr Meyer of refusing to disclose his sources,

• are the Infinite Energy sources open to generally scrutiny, especially
the files they hold on Mr Meyer and other scientists?

Surely anything less would be hypocritical by your standards.

• Why would Infinite Energy protect the name and reputation of a
reputable scientist who knew Meyer over a period of years they reported
to The Express that witnessed and rode in the water powered car and yet
deny that there was ever a water powered car and state that its
innovator was a fake and fraud?


I am confused again.

     
=====================================================================================================

I have important information that I would like to make public but I
cannot until I am clear of the first principles of this scientific
community and the scientific journal with which you are associated just
as I wish to have nmade clear the first principles of the editor of this
journal.  Is stating publically that other people's claims are "
bullshit ", that they are " frauds " and making portentious judgements
over who is or is not " discredited " scientific protocol?  Is it
exemplary of our discipline?

If it is not, then this is not science and I would like to know what
game we
are involved in.


• So to return to the most important question, how did Meyer get his
first patent?

If it is true that it was earned on a " bring and tell " basis, then it
does in fact stand as adequate independent verification of his claims
and a man died after having the opportunity of his life stolen from him
by individuals ignorant of the truth. Because of the important of energy
related issues and the early promise of a hydrogen economy, this is a
very serious matter.

There are a number of other serious inaccuracies in the statements of
Messers Rothwell and Horwood that I would like to pick up upon once this
is resolved and we can move on.  I understand why you would like me to "
shut up " Mr Horwood.

Regards,

John Allan

Energy Solutions, London
energy gold.globalcafe.co.uk

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 17:21:16 1998
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From: energy backspace.org
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Gentlemen,

Dr Eugene Mallove informs me he has more information on Mr Stanley Meyer
to publish in future issues of Infinite Energy.

Ms Jeane Manning, author of " The Coming Energy Revolution " informs me
that the Infinite Energy team hold a " secret file " on Mr Stanley Meyer
compiled by a " private investigator " that includes such information
that Mr Meyer " spent the night in a motel with a woman ".  One notes Mr
Meyer had been seperated from his wife for sometime when this underfined
event happened.

• Could Infinte Energy make public;

1) exactly who this " private investigator " is,
2) what his professional status and credibility is,
3) the sources of his information,
4) whether any financial investment was made to procure this information
5) which other scientist information is held on.

• Mr Rothwell states that 100s of " investors " lost money to this "
fraud ", 

1) could he supply details of contracting agreements between Mr Meyer
and said " investors "
2) could he supply name and address for this assertion?

• Mr Rothwell states that Mr Meyer carried a firearm at all times and
had a criminal record,

1) could he supply evidence to corroborate this?

Gentlemen,

Dr Eugene Mallove informs me he has more information on Mr Stanley Meyer
to publish in future issues of Infinite Energy.

Ms Jeane Manning, author of " The Coming Energy Revolution " informs me
that the Infinite Energy team hold a " secret file " on Mr Stanley Meyer
compiled by a " private investigator " that includes such information
that Mr Meyer " spent the night in a motel with a woman ".  One notes Mr
Meyer had been seperated from his wife for sometime when this underfined
event happened.

• Could Infinte Energy make public;

1) exactly who this " private investigator " is,
2) what his professional status and credibility is,
3) the sources of his information,
4) whether any financial investment was made to procure this information
5) which other scientist information is held on.

• Mr Rothwell states that 100s of " investors " lost money to this "
fraud ", 

1) could he supply details of contracting agreements between Mr Meyer
and said " investors "
2) could he supply name and address for this assertion?

• Mr Rothwell states that Mr Meyer carried a firearm at all times and
had a criminal record,

1) could he supply evidence to corroborate this?

• Mr Rothwell states Mr Meyer suffered from a psychological disorder

1) could he supply evidence to corroborate this?

Yours sincerely,

John Allan
Enclosed 

Yours sincerely,

John Allan

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 17:25:09 1998
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From: "Craig Haynie" <ccHaynie ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 3 results
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-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Thursday, August 20, 1998 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 3 results


[...]

>It's a good thing we can dismiss my results as meaningless.  Otherwise we
>might have been tempted to question the validity of the observations of the
>other incandescent W investigators.  Of course, that would have been
>blasphemy.  Once an excess energy result has been reported, it is destined
>to live forever.  An infinite number of negative replication efforts are
>required to disprove it.
>
>Scott


Scott, these results of yours are significant -- more so than the results of some of the other negative-result experiments you've conducted over the past couple of years: In this case, you replicated the effect, but saw NO excess heat. In past experiments
, you were unable to replicate the effect. This gives your current negative results a great deal more credibility than those of past experiments. If you cannot replicate the effect, then you cannot say that you've failed at finding heat.

Craig Haynie (Houston)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 18:41:24 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: if VORTEX-L gets national attention...
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 01:40:01 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:26:46 -0700 (PDT), William Beaty wrote:

>
>See below.  If vortex-L is flooded by hundreds of public subscribers, it
>will quickly become unmanagable.

Bill, how many subscribers are there currently?

>
>A possibility: change vortex-L into a paid-subscribers-only forum, but
>forward it to a no-charge secondary list which prohibits posts.  That way
>the non-serious subscribers could read messages without sending.

Not necessary, the archives are already available to all.
 
>Rather than make the list invitation-only, it could be remain public, and
>the "serious subscribers" would be anyone willing to pay a subscription
>fee.

How would this apply to current subscribers?
[snip]

IMO, none of the above is actually necessary. I know of several people
who have been members of Vortex for a short time, then unsubscribed
due to lack of interest. So I think you might get a wave of new
subscriptions in the beginning, but would end up losing most of these.
Knowledge of the existence of vortex has been common on SPF for some
time, and most people with an interest in this area visit SPF now and
again.
In short, I would be inclined to say, "by all means tell the readers
about vortex". Those who stick it out after a few months will be the
ones who are most committed to the cause, and we could probably use
their fresh insight anyway.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 18:54:20 1998
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 21:49:16 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 3 results
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To: Vortex

I mentioned the possibility that the excess heat has disappeared because the
cathode is no longer stressed so much it disintegrates. Here is a more prosaic
hypothesis along these lines. Scott cleaned up and smoothed out the input
power. Perhaps when the cathode is being destroyed by cavitation, input power
has many spikes and sudden fluctuations which are lost, so input power is
underestimated and it looks like there is excess heat. Better power monitoring
would make the excess go away. Scott should confer with Ed Wall about this,
when Ed has time, maybe in his next life.

Craig Haynie writes:

     In this case, you replicated the effect, but saw NO excess heat. In past
     experiments, you were unable to replicate the effect. This gives your
     current negative results a great deal more credibility than those of
     past experiments. If you cannot replicate the effect, then you cannot
     say that you've failed at finding heat.

I disagree. As Mike McKubre once explained in brilliant lecture, you have not
replicated until you see the same results, whether they are artifactual or
real. If Scott uses the same method as Wall and he sees apparent excess heat,
and then he goes on to prove the excess is an artifact, that would be a
replication of the Mallove - Wall results. Or suppose Little talks to Wall,
and Wall does the experiment again and confirms my hypothesis that apparent
excess is caused by power spikes during cavitation. That would also bring the
two results in line and resolve the issue. But, as long as Wall sees one thing
and Little sees another, they are doing two different experiments, and we do
not understand how to reconcile them. As long as we cannot pinpoint the
differences, the possibility remains that Wall is seeing real excess heat.

If the heat is real, and it is anything like CF, we can expect a long,
difficult battle to replicate. It might take months and hundreds of trials,
exchanges of materials, post-mortem examinations by SEM, and so on. But if the
heat is an artifact, it should not be too difficult to find the reason why.

A clear-cut replication and proof one way or the other is rare. Usually the
original experimenter is frustrated by the difficulty of replicating his own
results, and he eventually gives up, and we never learn whether the results
were real or artifactual. There is no resolution, no closure, no final answer,
no plot, no character development. It's just one damn thing after another.
That's how cold fusion works, and in my experience that's how most R&D works.
Hey, that's how life works!


One other thought: this might be chemical heat released by the destruction of
the cathode and chemical changes that introduces in the electrolyte. I doubt
it!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 19:38:35 1998
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 20:32:47 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: "negative viscosity"
In-Reply-To: <v03020901b2034f3a4c99 [128.183.200.195]>
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On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Larry Wharton wrote:
-snip---------
  In an upcoming paper I show that negative viscosity may result in
rotating fluids such as a vortex.  
-snip----------

  This *IS* interesting, can you elaborate?

-=se=-
steve (just curious) ekwall
-snip----------

Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov
                                ^^^^^^^           ^^^
This weeks Hurricane "Bonnie" is impressive -eh? 
Now, there's a vortex!

-=se=- :)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 19:46:55 1998
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Subject: Re: Enemies of the Vortex (WAS: "negative viscosity")
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On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Rick Monteverde wrote:

ZPE -

   >  Having said that, I must ask that my "friends" leave
   >  the identity detective work for the enemy... please.

Since you'd rather not disclose your own identy, how about disclosing the
specific identity of "the enemy"? Surely you have no reason to protect
them, and disclosure could only help broaden the awareness of just who this
enemy is. After all, these are dangerous times and we all need to protect
ourselves.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

-------------------------
Hi Rick,
   Good point! Intelligence vs Counter Intelligence.

 BTW, HAPPY  HAPPY BIRTHDAY)?)
On this date: Aug. 21, 1959, President Eisenhower signed an executive 
              order proclaiming Hawaii the 50th state.

-=se=-
steve (surf' up) ekwall :)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 19:47:37 1998
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:42:49 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Open Letter to Dr Mallove . . .
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To: Vortex

John Allan has posted more absurd distortions. He has apparently forgotten his
offer to sell me a nonexistent machine. He is back to on the warpath:

     Ms Jeane Manning, author of " The Coming Energy Revolution " informs me
     that the Infinite Energy team hold a " secret file " on Mr Stanley Meyer
     compiled by a " private investigator " that includes such information
     that Mr Meyer " spent the night in a motel with a woman " . . .

Yo, John! Who do you think we are? Ken Starr? People magazine? If we had
information like this I expect it would go straight into the trash can where
it belongs. I guarantee the last thing we would do is publish it or give it to
you. The magazine is about science, not sex scandals. This is right alone the
lines of your previous description of Fortean Times as "adult comic." What's
with you, anyway? Do you describe "Nature" as being a raunchy compendium of
control fantasies and mental masturbation? (Hmm . . . that's not far off
base.) Go elsewhere! You'll find the Internet caters to every known sex
fetish.

Do you honestly think that doing experiments and publishing a magazine on a
shoestring leaves us time to go around poking into some lunatic's private
life? Why would we waste money on a private investigator? We have trouble
paying the electric bill! Why would we care -- why would ANYONE care -- who
Meyer slept with?


     Mr Rothwell states that 100s of " investors " lost money to this "fraud"

Yup. Anyone who bought his literature to start with, including me. A hundred
here, a hundred there, and the guy probably made a good living, but the people
he really hurt were his "investors." That's why he was found guilty. Remember?


     Mr Rothwell states that Mr Meyer carried a firearm at all times and had
     a criminal record,

I never stated that! This is outrageous. I never said "at all times." I said
he was known to carry a gun. Meyer had a violent temper, and he was convicted
of fraud. I know he had a temper because he went into screaming fits of rage
with people I know, and threw objects at them. Allan has an amazing ability to
distort the facts. I mention that Meyer was known to carry a gun and suddenly
the man carried one at all times. Horwood mentioned that he received
information from Ohio and suddenly Allan thinks that Horwood visited Ohio
several times.

Say, John, what happened to your kind offer to sell me a machine? Remember:
you said I could "commission" a retrofit and you would be "happy" to arrange
it? I'm happy too! Delighted, downright ecstatic, near fit to be tied. I
accept! Hand it over! Give me a ship date. Oh, and if by some chance you are
a lying scheming crook and you have no machine, you should 'fess up and stop
making a fool of yourself. Look for another line of work. You are not good at
swindling people.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 21:17:56 1998
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Off Topic, Motion Sensor Auxiliary?
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:11:02 -0600
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To: Vortex

I added about 100 feet of sidewalk around
my house, but the 90 or 120  degree under-eaves motion sensors are not
activated very well
close up.

What kind of "mirror" could I mount on a post
or nearby wall to reflect motion to activate the sensors, and how big would
it have to be?

TIA,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 22:05:38 1998
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: if VORTEX-L gets national attention...
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At 4:26 PM 8/21/98, William Beaty wrote:
>See below.  If vortex-L is flooded by hundreds of public subscribers, it
>will quickly become unmanagable.

This would be a tragic loss.  This list is a treasure and unique backwater
of science, despite the recent tendency towards low technical content,
hubris, insolence, ridicule, debunkery, and namecalling.  It is recently
showing signs of significant technical dilution.  I am hopelessly behind in
my reading due to extreme demands on my time, but from scanning the list it
appears there is still significant work happening like Scott Little's
experiment, the negative viscosity theory, which has some prospect of
yielding some interesting experiments with further discussion, Fred
Sparber's usual potpourri of physics, the ExB discussion, etc.   However,
there appears to be many postings more suitable for private correspondence
or sci.physics.fusion or the freenrg.list.  I miss the wonderful synergism,
practical focus and significant content we have had in the past on the
vortex list, and further dilution will only exacerbate the present
situation.  This is not meant to criticise Bill Beaty's monitoring, which
is wonderfully tolerant, but rather to highlight our own lack of self
control.  An influx of "light" physics would bury the signal in noise and
make  control of the list nearly impossible.


>
>A possibility: change vortex-L into a paid-subscribers-only forum, but
>forward it to a no-charge secondary list which prohibits posts.  That way
>the non-serious subscribers could read messages without sending.
>Rather than make the list invitation-only, it could be remain public, and
>the "serious subscribers" would be anyone willing to pay a subscription
>fee.
>


As a voluntary donator to the vortex list this represents a small to no
change to me provided the cost is under $30/yr.  I gladly support this
option if it becomes necessary.  I suggest that the vortex digest list
might be a good prospect for a "read only" version of the list. I don't
know the technical implementation concerns, but it would be good if paying
contributing members could have good response time - isolated from the
delay of a vastly larger list.  This in itself is worth something to the
serious contributor.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 21 22:49:01 1998
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:46:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 3 results
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Scott Little's measurements look good to me. The electrical power
input measurement technique is theoretically sound---put part of the
rectifier filter inside the calorimeter envelope, so he can measure
the power as DC plus low frequency ripple. The calorimetry is
conceptually valid. It is not, of course, the only calorimetric
technique that can give valid results. Scott's implementation of flow
calorimetry with a modest thermal impedance between the cell and the
heat transfer coils allows the cell to operate at 80 to 90 C, just as
other experimenters have said it should. Furthermore, Scott's heat
transfer coil holds the temperature over much of the inner boundary of
the insulation of his calorimeter near room temperature. This reduces
heat leaks (in either direction) across the insulation.

On another theme, note that Scott (a) sees electrical noise to at
least 100 MHz, the limit of his oscilloscope, and (b) this noise
initially caused him problems with his data acquisition computer. 
Scott's experiences cited above highlight the kind of noise generated
by an arc. Also note that the first conscious electromagnetic wave
experiment, by Hertz, used a spark (arc) oscillator in (what we now
call) the VHF range, at a few 100 MHz. His detector, a spark jumping a
small gap in his receiving antenna, was certainly not sensitive. The
first Marconi transmitters were sparks (arcs), too. This reminds me
again of Ohmori and Mizuno's reported high neutron counts in a similar
experiment, as we discussed some here a few weeks ago. Neutron
counters have to detect extremely tiny electric current pulses, and,
therefore, they contain very high gain amplifiers. They must be well
shielded from electromagnetic noise. I still suspect that Ohmori and
Mizuno's "neutron" detector was actually counting electrical noise
pulses from the arc.


BTW, I am switching my Vortex-L activities over to this new e-mail
address, which I recently obtained for my home computer, now connected
to the Internet.
==
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 22 01:20:30 1998
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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 04:15:12 -0400
From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: First Principles Mr Horwood
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>> The US Patent office and other partied held and examined said device for
a
couple of years before issuing a patent.  The said patent received
National Security protection for some time.  I will give you my witness
on this. <<

The US Patent Office issues many Patents after the usual waiting period for
rebuttal by 3rd parties.  I understand that Meyer's 1st Patent was issued
after he demonstrated it to a Patent examiner.  OK so it dissociated water
into H and O, but I'll bet that no-one put an instrument anywhere near it
during the demo.

My US legal advisers insist that there would be a certificate issued for a
Patent which was subject to a secrecy order.  Have you seen such a cert.
applying to any of Meyer's Patents.?

>> Horwood and Rothwell state that the findings of all court case must be
unquestionably true and county courts are qualified to make scientific
judgements? <<

Rubbish - read what I said.

>> Horwood cannot bring himself to admit he did not read the proceeding of
the case before engaging in his " hatchet job " <<

Rubbish again - I did say that I had the court findings and judgement which
were sent to me by the Maritime Foundation.  READ my post properly and
don't distort.

>> Norman, you say that " you did not indicate that you visited Ohio ".

• Would you like to tell us about your visit to Ohio? <<

You must be going senile - I never went to Ohio - I communicated with
Meyer's office to no avail.  Dr Mallove and others have been to Ohio with
the same results.

>> I have in front of me communication to a research scientist working on
Ministry of Defence contracts, a gentleman with a solid and reliable
professional standing. <<

Whats that got to do with the price of fish?

>> Mr Horwood, I have politely asked you over a period of months to allow
me to independently test the Water Fuel Cell you have in your possession
that you used to deduce that Mr Stanley Meyer was a " liar " and a "
fraud " <<

And I have politely told you that since my move all my workshop stuff is
still in crates and I will eventually get round to sorting it out.  All
that is left of the cells I made is one set with Chris Tinsley's effects,
and the stainless steel assembly in a glass container in a crate somewhere
here.  My electronic circuit blew up after weeks of experimentation and
what was left of the components have long since been cannibalized.  If I
ever find the tubes you are welcome to them.  They took many hours of
delicate machining to get them parallel and at the correct radial spacing.

By the way, it was a US court which called Meyer a fraud.

>> Despite this reasonable request you have used excuse after excuse not to
furnish me with any details of your work despite your written enthusiasm
to debunk the fruadulent Mr Meyer for once and for all. <<

You never asked me for the details of my work.  However I can supply you
with a reference to similar work done by Sussex University to try to
validate Meyer with inconclusive results, but it was thought that ordinary
electrolysis was most likely to be the effect detected. The Scientist was
S.G.Sandberg and the work was reported in Feb. 1991.

>> There are a number of other serious inaccuracies in the statements of
Messers Rothwell and Horwood that I would like to pick up upon once this
is resolved and we can move on.  I understand why you would like me to "
shut up " Mr Horwood. <<

I said PUT UP OR SHUT UP.   If you have a working cell or know of one lets
all hear of it and have it MEASURED.  Thats all I have been trying to
arrange for several years.  Easy peasy really.  Sell Jed the thing for
$10,000 and if it does what Meyer claimed, your in the driving seat.

Norman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 22 03:04:59 1998
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August 22, 1998

Frederick J Sparber wrote to Vortex:

> I added about 100 feet of sidewalk around my house, but the 90 or 120 > degree under-eaves motion sensors are not activated very well
> close up.
> 
> What kind of "mirror" could I mount on a post or nearby wall to > reflect motion to activate the sensors, and how big would it have to > be?

Assuming that this is a "homework" type of question and ignoring it, I
would suggest some other remedy to those that cannot not read "Wet
Cement" signs.

1. Other than a stampede across the 100 foot section before it sets (24
hours?), I would just putty (with same cement) over the tracks and then
grind it down flat.

2. Keep the track imprints as part of Sparber's rustic 'walk of fame'.

3. Stuff unwashed clothes and make several Sparber dummy 'scarecrows'
standing around the project. A gimmick to make it twitch and moan once
in a while would help. Make peace with your neighbors.

4. This is in refernce to the motion sensor: remount the sensor(s) (or
get another one) at ground level to scan across rather than down on the
sidewalk. Should be easy to do.

By the way, some of your interesting but over my head theories you have
suggested may also be properly addressed to Scott and Talbot Chubbs for
discussion. They have a website now for their cf theoretical approach
and linked in Logajan's Skypoint website. It should make for an
interesting and fruitful interaction and a contribution to CF. I believe
in the "lattice induced fusion" idea.

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 22 03:40:35 1998
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To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Almost Friction Over-Unity and Viscosity
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 04:34:20 -0600
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To: Vortex

Classically the Casimir Plates are forced together by the ZPE force.

Suppose one brought two plates to micron or so spacing and rotated one wrt
the other,possibly
with an electric potential between them?

My Oracle says that "whenever a nuclear or molecular bond is stressed, the
energy released exceeds the stress energy".

Since viscosity;
 n = Force*Transverse Length/area*velocity,
or the ratio of force times distance to area times velocity = energy.

As far as I can tell, negative viscosity implies spontaneous energy
production from nothing. :-)

However, if one uses a primer/pilot, there might be an o-u energy return...?

Do this in vacuum or a gas, using good calorimetry?

Regards,    Frederick

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Subject: Re: Off Topic, Motion Sensor Auxiliary?
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-----Original Message-----
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Saturday, August 22, 1998 4:05 AM
Subject: Re: Off Topic, Motion Sensor Auxiliary?

LOL!  You're warped Akira. I only wanted to see if the motion sensors would
work off of a reflected motion when an intruder is kind enough to keep off
the grass and use the sidewalk that cost me $2.00/ft^2.  :-)

I'll give your recommendations some serious thought.

Best,     Frederick


Aki wrote:


>August 22, 1998
>
>Frederick J Sparber wrote to Vortex:
>
>> I added about 100 feet of sidewalk around my house, but the 90 or 120 >
degree under-eaves motion sensors are not activated very well
>> close up.
>>
>> What kind of "mirror" could I mount on a post or nearby wall to > reflect
motion to activate the sensors, and how big would it have to > be?
>
>Assuming that this is a "homework" type of question and ignoring it, I
>would suggest some other remedy to those that cannot not read "Wet
>Cement" signs.
>
>1. Other than a stampede across the 100 foot section before it sets (24
>hours?), I would just putty (with same cement) over the tracks and then
>grind it down flat.
>
>2. Keep the track imprints as part of Sparber's rustic 'walk of fame'.
>
>3. Stuff unwashed clothes and make several Sparber dummy 'scarecrows'
>standing around the project. A gimmick to make it twitch and moan once
>in a while would help. Make peace with your neighbors.
>
>4. This is in refernce to the motion sensor: remount the sensor(s) (or
>get another one) at ground level to scan across rather than down on the
>sidewalk. Should be easy to do.
>
>By the way, some of your interesting but over my head theories you have
>suggested may also be properly addressed to Scott and Talbot Chubbs for
>discussion. They have a website now for their cf theoretical approach
>and linked in Logajan's Skypoint website. It should make for an
>interesting and fruitful interaction and a contribution to CF. I believe
>in the "lattice induced fusion" idea.
>
>-AK-
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 22 04:46:06 1998
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Subject: Re: Off Topic, Motion Sensor Auxiliary?
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August 22, 1998

Fred,

I took your question to be a rhetorical 'what if ' since you already made the
side walk whereas earlier,  you indicated a pending project.

> I only wanted to see if the motion sensors would
>work off of a reflected motion when an intruder is kind enough to keep off
>the grass and use the sidewalk that cost me $2.00/ft^2.  :-)

I pretty sure the 'motion' sensor is a heat (infrared) detection device. so a
curved mirror should work and give you a wide area coverage. You might have to
raise the sensitivity to compensate. So how are you going to differentiate
between a grasswalker and the other, I wonder.

-AK-


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 22 05:04:11 1998
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Sender: jack pop.centuryinter.net
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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 06:53:07 +0000
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hamdi ucar wrote:
 
  ... I had also a counter on my homepage (at geocities)
 pointing the same number today. I will be a good idea to
 celebrate it, at evening.
 
 Used script code is
 
 <P><B>
 Countdown to December 31,1999:
 <FONT COLOR="#FFFFFF"><FONT SIZE=+2><I>
 <SCRIPT>
 var t=new Date()
 document.write(10958-Math.ceil(t.getTime()/86400000))
 </SCRIPT>
 </I></FONT> days
 </FONT></B></P>
 
 Hi Hamdi,
 
 Thanks for the code.  The fourth line should be
 
 <SCRIPT language=javascript>
 
 to make it work.  You can see it in action at
 
 http://www.centuryinter.net/tjs11/
 
 Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 22 05:26:54 1998
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From: "David Callaghan" <DCallaghan CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk>
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Subject: Re: Off Topic, Motion Sensor Auxiliary?
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Fred

The majority of passive IR motion sensors use a fresnel lens to give the
sensor narrow bands fanning out from the sensor.  The operational 'range' in
degrees is set by the lens.
Therefore, at close range, a small mirror will suffice (a few inches
square), but it would be better to reposition the sensors because some
sensors require either more than 'trip' to activate.  Dual element sensors
have interleaved 'bands' and require input to both elements to 'trip'

I would require more information about the sensors and their positioning to
give a good solution.

Best regards
David Callaghan
DCallaghan CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk


-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick J Sparber <fjsparb sprintmail.com>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 22 09:12:44 1998
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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 12:12:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Platt <cp panix.com>
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Subject: The List
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I joined the list yesterday, and may unsubscribe today. This is no 
reflection on the participants; it merely reflects my own needs. I need 
information rather than discussion. In particular, I need information 
about recent cold fusion research.

I would gladly pay an annual fee for a heavily moderated list describing
recent research. Perhaps such a list should also be open to rebuttal of
recent research, but only on a formal, considered basis. If anyone objects
to this rather severe moderation of content--well, the vortex list would
still be available too, right? 

In the months since I became acquainted with cold fusion and its
proponents at the Vancouver conference in April, I have come to the
conclusion that this is an extremely important area of research. Clearly
it deserves a better communication channel. This would serve two purposes: 
first, obviously, it would enable researchers to present their work to
each other, and discuss it, with minimum noise level. Second, and perhaps
even more important, it would serve as a good advertisement for the field.
Most of the principals in cold fusion are of retirement age, or getting
there. You really need to attract younger participants. This is a PR
problem; and speaking as a journalist who has also done public relations,
I have to say that cold-fusion PR currently is pretty bad. 

I realize it's not easy to promote unpopular ideas. For the past ten years
or so, as a part-time activity, I have been involved in the "fringe" 
science of freezing human beings, sometimes referred to as cryonics, or
human cryopreservation. Most cryobiologists regard this as being on a
level with witchcraft (though a few are beginning to reconsider, as they
see that new research does promise reversible brain cryopreservation). 
Still, despite the prejudice, I have been able to promote cryonics
successfully; for example I set up a publicity event that was featured on
the cover of Omni magazine, was aired on national TV, and prompted
literally thousands of information requests. I also produce an
intermittent newsletter which has attracted serious interest from people
with academic qualifications. It can be done. 

A very long article I have just written on cold fusion (strongly
advocating more funding for research) is very likely to appear in the
November-dated issue of Wired magazine, on sale in the last week of
October. I believe this article is more wholeheartedly positive, and
longer, than any other feature on cold fusion that has appeared in
national-circulation magazines during the past eight years. But it is
probably my one-shot contribution to the field. As a journalist, I have to
move on to other topics; and as an activist, I am already busy enough in
the field of cryonics. 

Therefore I urge *someone* to do what needs to be done here, and set up
*something* to capitalize on the brief blip of interest that my article in
Wired may provoke. It is very unfortunate that in the sidebar which will
accompany the article, I am only able to list three information resources:
the vortex web page, Infinite Energy magazine, and the sci.physics.fusion
Usenet group. None of these focuses specifically on cold fusion, and all
of them (from my "outsider" perspective) are a bit indiscriminate in their
content. You REALLY need a serious, sober link between cold fusion
research and the web-browsing public. This could be a moderated Usenet 
news group, a more heavily moderated mail list, or a web page.

Maybe you all know this already ... in which case, forgive me for 
restating the obvious.

--Charles Platt

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 22 09:13:57 1998
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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Scott requested suggestions and I have a thought.

At the ICCF, Dennis Craven told me about his tungsten cathode experiment and
even drew me a picture on the back of my program and wrote out specifications.
One thing he emphasized was that his cathode was thoriated tungsten.  That is,
a snort of thorium in the tungsten.  He said that welding rod with this
specification is an item of commerce.  

I recall from the vacuum tube electronics days that filaments were made from
thoriated tungsten to enhance their electron emission.  Maybe it does other
things too

Bob Briggs

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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Frederick J Sparber <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
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Subject:  Motion Sensor 
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	Commercial sensors of many types exist, very easy to use.  Please 
contact off line.

				John

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From: energy backspace.org
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Sirs,

I am sorry that I have been unable to respond immediately to your
emails, changing emails, mail servers problems, backlog.

I have not actually read the email offer from Mr Rothwell and had not
before I sent the previous emails.

I am not on any attack.

I am still trying to get a completely picture of what has been going on.

Not a pretty picture is it when one start to dig under the opinion that
has been formed

Briefly, Mr Horwood, read the court *proceedings* to decide whether the
*findings* mean anything.

We have a scientist here whose work was independently verified by The US
Government Patent Office amongst other reliable authorities whose
science had a very considerable contribution to make to energy and
environmental science - despite the difficult nature of his personality.

A valid situation was engineered to expose this and lead to the
exploitation of this technological base which was deliberately sabotaged
by individuals without professional standing shown to be acting
dubiously and in ignorance or in prejudice.

This opportunity was lost and now with the consequent death of the
innovator, the advances in hydrogen technology is possibly also lost to
humanity. A general opinion has been formed that makes it impossible for
any professionals to look sincerely at the work that has obvious merit.

Ludicrous statements have been made in defence of these increasingly
bizarre involvements.  I would say it looks worse than The People, it is
more like National Inquiry or Fortean Times, the British equivalent.   

The loss is of a too serious nature to over look lightly.

                 -------------------------

• Has the offer been to open these sordid " secret files " ?

• Have we yet discover who took the initiative the do the hatchet job on
the basis of all this nonsense?

• Were you the " private investigator " Mr Horwood, was it someone else
or was Ms Jeane Manning defaming Dr Mallove with this allegation?

                 ------------------------- 


We look at the court proceedings; plaintiffs related to judiciary,
individuals part of $1m investors groups in competitive technology,
allies to individuals who had pulled a gun on the defendent before,
witnesses not alowed to make statements because they had foreign
accents, chemicals introduced into cells, " experts " who were retired
school teachers, forcible attempts to break with contracted agreements
and so on.  

A kangaroo court.

In the House of Lords seminar, we had a decent positive solution that
would also have acted as a catalyst to bring together some of the best
minds in the country in politics, science, defence, the church and the
environment movement to discuss new energy technologies.  Whether Meyer
would have delivered or not is immaterial, something else would have
come along, hopefully from within the scientific community.  It may even
have been the scientific end of the Cold Fusion phenomenon, it may have
been another new energy technology.

At that point a pipeline would have existed to progress the work, the
important all important supportative network that will be necessary for
this work to be taken seriously and taken to the market place.  At 
least in the UK, Europe or Commonwealth Nations.

That is what has been lost.  Years have been lost.  Quite aside from the
implications of Meyer's Water Fuel Cell process, or advancement of
hydrogen technologies, there has been a lost of national consequence and
further obstacles put in the way of serious social, scientific and
political thought.

That is damage that cannot be undone and has not be replaced.

The modus operandi behind it has I think been made very clear.

The game of cold fusion exists within the game of science, the game of
science exists with the greater game of politics and economy.  The Game
of Nations  

Under the capitalist system, corporations are legally bound to make
profits beyond anything else.  At this time, as for many years, a
hydrogen based economy would compete equally with the hydrocarbon
economy we have a present.

A simple cell that split water into hydrogen and oxygen at a more
efficient rate than conventional electrolysis would entirely over turn
this game of nations.  If it was merely 5 times more efficient, as Dr
mallove has estamited, - and worked every time it was switched on as
Meyer's did - that would constitute a sufficcient over-kill. 

Such a cell cannot be taken as an ordinary piece of science to be judged
and condemned by hobbyists. 

If one is selling sweeties, one go to a cornershop.  If one is starting
up a corporation, one goes to an international merchant bank.  If one is
re-writing the energy economy, the House of Lords is a fairly reasonable
place to start given the attendance and asocaition of high level
representatives of supra-national organisations such as the UN, The
Trilateral Commission and The Bilderbergers ( political leaders Lords
Owen, Callaghan and Carrington ).

Good Heavens! Even the titular head of the Grand Order of Freemasons, (
Prince Michael of Kent ), was involved with the Admiral's, not Meyer's
as you say, plan to convert a martime diesel engine and demonstrate it
at St Katherin's dock.  No wonder " hayseed " Charismatic Christian Mr
Meyer's was paranoid.  We even have the financial support of the
international merchant bank. ( Credit Lyonnaise ).

I am sitting with the invitation list in front of me and I notice Mr
Horwood that despite your professional standing and close relationship
with Admiral Sir Anthony Griffin, neither you nor Mr Tinsley were
invited.

• Admiral Griffin knew about the court case and unconcerned. 

• Why did he proceed?

I apologise in advance to say this but in your willful and successful
efforts to discredit Mr Stanley Meyer, you have laid clear the manner in
which you work.

I hope that this was not a case of " the Wicked Witch of the West "
turning up to Dorothy's party. 

Perhaps the wisest words said this month were from Charles Platt which I
am exceptionally grateful for. 

A call for professional standards, an impartial and independent
professional and scientific body to govern the behaviour of opinion
formers within the field of new energy technoloiges.  

As this comes at the same time as Dr Mallove's demands to abolish the US
Department of Energy perhaps we should be discussing what sort of
phoenix should rise out of its ashes what professional standards should
be prevalent before a rooster comes to home to land.

Sincerely,

John Allan
energy gold.globalcafe.co.uk

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 22 11:47:58 1998
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I have the IR motion sensors installed (six of them) but, I asked if a
reflector would fill in the blind spots "behind" the under-eaves corner
units. 195 HotBot Search Engine Hits with the keywords "Motion Sensors".

Thanks for the offer, John.    FJS

http://smarthome.com/commercial.html


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 22 12:28:41 1998
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 3 results
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At 12:11 PM 8/22/98 EDT, BriggsRO aol.com wrote:

>At the ICCF, Dennis Craven told me about his tungsten cathode experiment and
>even drew me a picture on the back of my program and wrote out
specifications.
>One thing he emphasized was that his cathode was thoriated tungsten.

Thanks for reminding me, Bob.  When I spoke to Cravens last week he told me
that the thoriated rods "work better".  I've got thoriated rods on hand (we
have a TIG welding setup at EarthTech).  That change alone sounds good to
me for Run 4.

Another point I wish to clear up.  Someone (perhaps Jed) mentioned that I'd
smoothed out the current pulses with capacitors.  This is true but only
from the viewpoint of the power analyzer.  The capacitors are connected
directly across the cell and, as a result, the cell probably sees higher,
sharper current spikes when each discharge occurs than it would without the
caps.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 22 14:02:07 1998
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 3 results
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 17:01:33 -0400
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Jed writes:

> I mentioned the possibility that the excess heat has disappeared because
the
> cathode is no longer stressed so much it disintegrates. Here is a more
prosaic
> hypothesis along these lines. Scott cleaned up and smoothed out the input
> power. Perhaps when the cathode is being destroyed by cavitation, input
power
> has many spikes and sudden fluctuations which are lost, so input power is
> underestimated and it looks like there is excess heat. Better power
monitoring
> would make the excess go away. Scott should confer with Ed Wall about
this,
> when Ed has time, maybe in his next life.

We realized early on that power monitoring was a problem and initial
experiments were simple, ignoring spikes and making guesses at average
voltages.  The magazine article does not claim that we had yet successfully
replicated the work of Ohmori and Mizuno, insofar as finding strong
confirmation of overunity.  Gene stated (p.9) that the experiment "looks
tailor-made to spread like wildfire."  He quotes their ICCF-7 paper and
writes, "We hope they are right."  There was reason to believe that the
effect is easily reproduced, given the sensational "boiled lightening"
effect.  Adding capacitance across the cell does make the input power more
measurable, but the spikes are likely to be where the putative excess
energy is evolved, particularly if charge clusters are involved.  Rather
than eliminating the spikes, I suggest that investigators use narrow 
high-voltage pulses of known power content with a duty cycle sufficient to
maintain cell temperature.  If most of the electrical energy in the DC
cells used so far is heating water the old-fashioned way and the
hard-to-measure spikes are producing the effect we seek, the use of narrow
pulses just might enhance signal-to-noise dramatically.  My thinking is
that accurate input power might be figured by measuring power into the
power supply with a knowledge of the efficiency of the power supply learned
from operating it into an ohmic load that would give me relatively easily
measured spikes, rather than into the cell with its highly non-linear
response.  Is this far-fetched?

I have looked at the cell voltage during incandescence with a 100 MHz scope
and not surprisingly found that there is considerable amplitude at
frequencies higher than I can measure.  This may require an RF approach.

Gene did include the caveat "if no mistake has been made" in describing the
work we were doing.  This work was done in the last days of my brief time
here while on vacation and it was too rushed to be as careful as we would
have liked.  I did report to Gene that I had gotten the apparent O/U in a
boil-off, then later discovered that the thermometer was broken, having
touched the tungsten electrode.  In the confusion that followed, I
apparently did not convey to Gene what that meant in the stream of
information I was conveying to him and he wrote the article after I left. 
I reported this a few weeks go to Vortex.

He mentions the work of others working at replication with several OU
results claimed.  At this point, I would have to withdraw our weak claim
until further work is done, but this does not mean much of anything other
than a fleeting communication problem between Gene and myself.

For the immediate future, I have very pressing work in other areas.  I do
not anticipate that putting together a pulsing power supply will not be
tremendously difficult, but almost nothing proceeds as easily as plans
predict, in my experience.  Resources of time and money are always limited.

I am thinking of using IGBT's to release a stored charge.  Suggestions from
those with such experience are certainly welcome.  

Ed Wall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 22 14:42:10 1998
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Subject: Re: Off Topic, Motion Sensor Auxiliary?
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The IR motion detectors contain lenses which effectively create radial zones
of spatially varying zones of sensitivity. A heat source such as human
walking past -- even very slowly -- will generate a varying signal which
triggers the alarm.

A diverging mirror located in one of the zones will not increase the
coverage, since the energy from the heat source is now dispersed, and the
energy reaching the detector comes from within one of the zones established
by the manufacturer. If you place such a detector under the eaves such that
the fan of zones is parallel to the walk, you are defeating the design of
the detector.

The IR detectors require these zones to produce a varying signal so they are
self calibrating with respect to the heat sources in an environment. My
house burglar alarm has two internal motion detectors which won't trigger if
you stand very still, or move very,very slowly. If you attempted a
night-time burglary at the undetected glacial pace, dawn would come before
you accomplished much.

Mike Carrell



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August 23, 1998

Given:

 > http://smarthome.com/commercial.html

Nice Leviton website for various IR motion detector products without
spotlights which I am used to seeing. 

Does these and other IR motion detectors work during background high
temperatures? I think not.

-ak-

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On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
-snip-
I added about 100 feet of sidewalk around
my house, but the 90 or 120  degree under-eaves motion sensors are not
activated very well close up.
What kind of "mirror" could I mount on a post
or nearby wall to reflect motion to activate the sensors, and how big would
it have to be?
TIA,   Frederick
----------------------
Hi Frederick,
Mirror reflection= motion , NOT the heat from the moving unit. (sigh)
  The 90 or 120 degree sensors references 'WIDTH of optic VIEW' not close
up or far (100') 'LENGTH of VIEW' Which includes "Depth".  Tilt them down
to see close-up, Tilt them
up for max 80-100 feet (max?) (This precludes a Hot Vision of a mushroom
cloud on your horizon :) just kidding, but Its IR would also turn ON
your lights)).
  The PIR (PASSIVE-Infra-Red) sensors are set to a GENERAL overall view
and made / manufactured to be hung HIGH (physical security reasons) as
under-eaves mounting.... with that in mind they also can *SPLIT* the field
of view with Fresno-type lenses in long, far, short, or narrow input.  The
more lenses (many models have -masked- pet alleys for indoor use or spot
light type detection, or general (what you have?) the more input, BUT the
 Closer to the heat or movement the _more_ sensitive.
  Home sensors are general in design (view-field) and should be "walk
tested" to your application satisfaction. Personally I like anything
"coming-in" to my
property perimeter to be detected FIRST! If you prefer going-OUT "turn on
my lights" you should direct them towards your doorways (exits). Lenses
can be bought to replace the plastic Fresno one mounted in your unit on
most models. And a friendly waving of your 98.6 body heat exposed skin of
your arm, will assure it will function. :)
  the General Lens, both 90 & 120 normally have three (3) LENGTH fields so
the lense is 3x3 4x4 depending on manufacturer model.close.medium.far.
"SEEING" Viewing/detecting: heat at 20 degrees 50 degrees 100 degrees
The (lower lense row) 20 degrees from horizontal I think is your problem 
At roof top (eaves? 1-2+ levels high)
------------------------
Of course, you probably knew all this as we all read the instructions
first! [but, thought about Bill B.'s homepage on holograms and
scratches on a car hood!  You might try scratching the bottom row of the
lenses with a pin-point to reflect the lense lower - extending its range
down, and still preserving the focal LENGTH of view 100'] (could work?)
------------------------
Another sensor can also be added (in series), one looking out, one looking
at your door. (Average switch is about 3-500w so don't overload:)
------------------------
IF YOU REALLY WANT A MIRROR, go to "IR "sensor type beams. Be sure if
you use a Mirror mount it extremely stable.  IR will expect to go out and
return - interruption is a Lights ON condition. These are normally place
waist/knee high and have a point to point effect and not general coverage. 
Expensive & more alarm type beam.  The mail-man (or neighbor dog) can set
them off. (err ON).

Just found this in my out_box (sigh) your concrete is surely dry by now 
do moot points - sorry for the band width, but it is off topic :)
-=se=-
ekwall2 diac.com

p.s. If I get ever get up on the ladder to connect that drain spout I
think I'll try the Bill B. scratch'ings on the lense - will let you know.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 22 20:55:35 1998
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Subject: Cooling Effect Explanation ?
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From: tv juno.com (Tim Vaughan)
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Transient Electron Coherence
by Tim Vaughan

The following is prompted by a recent experimental observation by
Jean-Louis Naudin of an anomalous cooling effect in a large coil of wire.

I would like throw out an idea to  the members of this open forum to
consider and comment on.

It came to me in an attempt to explain the cooling effect in a large coil
of wire observed by the physicist Leon Dragone in an experiment he called
the electroentropic device in 1989, as well as in his investigations of a
Joseph Newman type electric motor.  Sadly, his experiments were cut short
by a heart condition that caused him to die at an early age.

Leon measured a temperature drop of up to 2 degrees F. (0.8 C) in a large
coil of wire connected to his special cold cathode arc switch.

I met Leon Dragone at a conference hosted by the Planetary Association
for Clean Energy in Canada.   Leon and I immediately became friends as I
stayed up all night talking to him about energy ideas at the conference. 
 We had very similar ideas about  the possibility of organizing (or
cohering) fluctuation energy such as thermal and quantum zero point
fluctuation energy.  Sadly, he died a few months later he died
of a heart attack.  He did not publish much information but I had many
phone conversations with him in which he described his ideas and
experiments.

At the conference Leon showed me and others,  his "electroentropic
device" which seemed to show an excess energy gain.   It consisted of a
Neon sign transformer secondary coil connected in series with a
micrometer adjustable spark gap also in series with a light bulb and a
575 volt battery pack.    The battery pack also had a 3.5 uFD 4000 volt
capacitor connected in parallel across it.   The spark gap device was a
small black box with a micrometer adjustment knob and two wires sticking
out.   The wires were connected with alligator clips and small gauge
wire.

When the spark gap was shorted, the bulb would not glow at all as only 25
milliamperes was flowing through it due to the 18000 ohms of resistance
in the neon sign transformer.   When Leon would carefully adjust the
spark gap device the light would glow quite brightly and the current
would increase to over 1000 milliamperes.

Leon told me that he would get the same effect with a Newman type coil
connect instead of the Neon sign transformer.  Leon told me and this was
later confirmed by Dr. P.T. Pappas ( a physicist from Athens, Greece )
that when the spark gap  
was operating in "excess energy mode" they were able to measure a drop in
temperature of the coil of about 2 degrees Fahrenheit or (0.8 Celsius).  
The spark gap was what they called cold cathode glow discharge spark.

Leon Dragone also told me that he had measured a similar temperature drop
in the coil of the Newman motor he had constructed.  As far as I know he
never attempted to thermally insulate the coil from its surroundings.

Leon thought maybe he was cyclically robbing the magnet inside the coil
of some of its thermal energy in someway.  However, Leon told me that he
was puzzled by the his observation of a temperature drop in large coil of
wire with no core at all.   Also the temperature drop was measured on the
coil itself and not the rotating permanent magnet armature when the
magnet was present.

Since I had not heard of anyone else observing these effects, I
considered that Dragone and Pappas had made an error in the temperature
measurements or there was some other kind phenomena at work like the
Peltier Effect.

Most recently, Jean-Louis Naudin made a very exciting discovery
of a temperature drop in a large coil when running experiments with a
Joseph Newman type motors.   Great work Jean-Louis  !

( see:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/NMac0709.htm )

I believe these temperature drops are very significant.
===========

I wish to throw out this idea I call TRANSIENT ELECTRON COHERENCE.

First here are some known facts about the free electrons in metals:

THE FREE ELECTRON MODEL

Some of the electrons in a metal conductor called FREE ELECTRONS are
constantly moving about within the crystal structure of a metal, not just
in the atomic orbits but also between the atoms.

The motion of the free electrons through the metal is statistically
random with as many going in one direction as another.   Therefore there
is no net current.

Some of the motion of the electrons is due to thermal energy, however the
electrons move around in the metal crystal even at absolute zero
temperature.   This is called
the zero point energy of the free electrons.

For this reason, a metal can be thought of as a "solid state plasma"
consisting of positive metal ion cores held in a crystal matrix
surrounded by an electron gas.

Electrons act as both particles and waves.

The wavelength of an electron depends on its energy (speed)

The wave nature of electrons causes them to interact with the atoms in a
metal conductor or semiconductor differently depending on their speed.

At certain energies (speeds) the electrons resonate with the periodically
spaced atoms in a metal crystal lattice and will be reflected or
scattered.

Due to the Pauli exclusion principle of quantum mechanics.   Two
electrons with same speed (wavelength) and direction (and spin) cannot
occupy the same space.   Therefore the energies (speeds)  of the free
electrons are distributed over a range of  values.

Electrons can have any energy (speed) within a range of allowed values.  
This range of  values is called a band.

Certain energy values are not allowed in a given crystal because they
resonate with periodically spaced atoms.   These missing energy values
are called "forbidden energy bands".

A band of  allowed energy levels (speeds) will then have an upper and
lower limit bounded by the forbidden regions.

Because of the Pauli exclusion principle the bands fill up with electrons
from the lowest to the highest allowed values.

An insulator has electrons that are confined to stay within individual
atoms or molecules and are not free to move throughout the material.

These bound electrons can be said to exist inside energy bands which are
filled so they do not allow more electrons to move in one directions than
in another.  So there can be no current flow.  These filled energy bands
are called VALENCE BANDS.

Conductors also have electrons in valence bands some of which are in
atomic orbits and some that are free.  

 When an electric field is applied to a conductor such as a wire, the
electrons in the valence bands can accelerate or gain energy as long as
there is an allowed energy level to fill which would be the next higher
level that has been vacated by another electron that has also been
accelerated.    

Electrons with the highest allowed energy level in a given valence band
will be reflected (in a perfect crystal) or at least scattered when they
reach a forbidden energy level.  If they are reflected they may occupy an
energy level that has been vacated by an electron that was traveling in
the opposite direction and has been slowed by the electric field.

 In this way electrons in valence bands simply exchange energy levels
such that there is not net gain in energy (speed) in a single direction
and therefore no net current flow due to the electrons in the valence
bands.   Therefore, because of this "energy musical chairs", electrons in
valence bands do not contribute to current flow.

In a conductor, the highest energy band is not filled by electrons.   In
other words, all of the available energy states in this highest energy
band are not occupied.  This energy band is called the CONDUCTION BAND.

Electrons in the conduction band can contribute to a net current flow
because of the available energy levels.

Now here is where a possible way to cohere the free energy of electrons
comes in................

Actual energy bands contain enormous numbers of allowed energy levels.
However, imagine for purposes of understanding, that a certain conductor
has a conduction band that has only the first two energy levels occupied.
 Therefore, there would be two electrons going in the forward direction
with energy level 1 and 2 and two electrons going in the reverse
direction with energy level 1 and 2.
( I am disregarding spins here)

Now suppose an electric field is applied to the conductor so that the
electrons will be accelerated in the forward direction.  Some time later
the electrons moving in the forward direction will gain an amount of
energy such that they then occupy energy levels 2 and 3 in the forward
direction.   At the same time the two electrons traveling in the reverse
direction will be decelerated so that the fastest electron moves from
energy level 2 to 1 as soon as level 1 is available.   The electron at
level 1 however is not allowed to go to a lower level in the reverse
direction and is reflected so that it would now occupy level 1 of the
forward direction.

As a net result, the originally forward moving electrons simply gain
energy as expected by the accelerating electric field.   At same time
though, an additional electron is added to the forward moving group
because the slowest (least energetic) conduction band electron that was
moving in the reverse direction has been reflected so that it moves in
the forward direction as well.   

As a result of this selective reflection of the slowest (lowest energy)
electrons in the conduction band we would now have 3 electrons moving in
the forward with only one moving in the reverse direction.

A short time later the single electron moving in the reverse direction
would try to occupy the forbidden level below level 1 and would also be
reflected joining the others in the forward direction.

At this point all 4 of the electrons in the conduction band will be
moving in the forward direction.   Part of the added energy of the
electrons moving in the forward direction will have been contributed by
the applied electric field with an additional amount added by the
selective reflection of the slowest conduction band electrons originally
moving in the reverse direction.    This results in an amplification of
the net forward current by energy contributed by the zero-point energy of
the originally reverse moving electrons.

This amplification effect would be short lived because the population of
eligible reverse moving conduction bands electrons would be quickly
depleted.

In short an abruptly applied high voltage potential applied to a
conductor should cause the selective reflection of the lower energy
conduction band electrons traveling in opposition to the applied electric
field which will contribute their kinetic energy to the forward moving
current.

Now if my hypothesis is correct, when a strong  electric field is
abruptly applied to a conductor, a transient current surge will occur
that consists of a quantity of energy that has been cohered from the
energy of the free electrons in the metal.   If this energy can be
captured somehow before it degenerates into heat or radiation, it can be
utilized.   This captured  energy would then be replenished by the
ambient energy inside and surrounding the conductor.   Therefore, the
entropy and temperature of the conductor would be reduced (a cooling
effect).

A device capturing such free energy of the electrons would constitute a
macroscopic violation of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.  However, it
would really be a coherence of  many microscopic heat engines
(electron-ion interactions).

If this hypothesis is correct,  it should be possible to cohere and
extract some of the fluctuation energy of the free electrons of a
conductor (or semiconductor).   In order to enhance this effect it would
be best to use a long conductor.   The effect might be best seen in a
large coil of wire at lower frequencies or in a transmission line (or
antenna) at higher frequencies.   Abrupt switching might be accomplished
with, among other things, a commutator or an appropriate spark gap.  The
surge might be captured by some form of diode, electronic switching
device,  or commutator.

Please, I welcome your comments and criticisms about this hypothesis.

Sincerely,

Tim Vaughan
( tv juno.com )


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 22 21:43:07 1998
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: DEP{  DEP {  attention...
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	Dear Bill,

	Bar none, of all the experiences, from kermit and VAX to present,
Vo    has had the lowest GQ.... or "goofy quotient"

			JHS
	 
On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, William Beaty wrote:

> 
> See below.  If vortex-L is flooded by hundreds of public subscribers, it
> will quickly become unmanagable.
> 
> A possibility: change vortex-L into a paid-subscribers-only forum, but
> forward it to a no-charge secondary list which prohibits posts.  That way
> the non-serious subscribers could read messages without sending. 
> Rather than make the list invitation-only, it could be remain public, and
> the "serious subscribers" would be anyone willing to pay a subscription
> fee.
> 
> On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Charles Platt wrote:
> > I have written a long article for Wired magazine, which has a 
> > circulation of around 700,000 in the United States. The 
> > article discusses cold fusion, which I believe was unjustly 
> > discredited and has been ignored during the past nine years 
> > because of a truly remarkable "conspiracy of denial" in the 
> > scientific community. 
> 
> <asks permission to mention Vortex-L and include the addr.>
> 
> ((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 22 22:04:44 1998
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:04:32 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 3 results
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At 05:01 PM 8/22/98 -0400, Ed Wall wrote:

>Adding capacitance across the cell does make the input power more
>measurable, but the spikes are likely to be where the putative excess
>energy is evolved, particularly if charge clusters are involved.

Hi Ed, glad to see you getting in on this.  

I don't think the caps do anything to reduce the spikes that the cell
sees...if anything, they increase the "violence" of them because the caps
act as a local surge supply for the cell.  Without the caps, the current
spikes have to flow through the entire external circuit, which has
significant inductance.  With the caps in place the current spikes can flow
mainly only through the caps and the short wires that connect them to the
cell.

Now, if you think that it's bad to change ANYTHING that the cell sees, then
we can keep the caps across the cell but add an inductor, say 5
microhenries, in series with them to simulate the external circuit.  Now
the cell sees the same external impedance that it did before the caps were
added but the external power monitoring stuff is still protected from the
wild spikes.

Technically the caps and inductor should go inside the calorimeter but I
think their dissipation will be so low as to be negligible.

>I have looked at the cell voltage during incandescence with a 100 MHz scope
>and not surprisingly found that there is considerable amplitude at
>frequencies higher than I can measure.  This may require an RF approach.

I'm sure all that RF stuff is still going on in the cell's local circuit
when the caps are across it...it's just been removed from the external
circuit.

>I am thinking of using IGBT's to release a stored charge.  Suggestions from
>those with such experience are certainly welcome.  

I'm worried that any kind of contrived power pulse will, in the final
analysis, be identical to either a constant-current or constant-voltage
power supply connected to the cell periodically.  Since the cell's
impedance is erratic and unpredictable, so will be the power delivered
during these pulses.

Ed, what are you working on that's keeping you from this experiment?


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 22 22:08:33 1998
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n

	Make sure ALL mirror surfaces, if use, are either good IR 7 to 15 
micron ... or first surface...!



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 22 22:22:02 1998
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Subject: Re: Cooling Effect Explanation ?
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y

	Dear Vo... and Jean,


	[if you read the month by month in physics and chemistry and 
electro optics]....

	Not hazarding 'reason' ... just observation:

	
	1] electrolusis starting at 400 mv reported... from ~ 1810 to present
	[and by use of a kind 'beside the barn' method]


	2] heat loss in [1] reported 1830 to present... and in...
	3] Nernst, Einstein, Corbino, Hall .... the list goes on and on 
... Bitter, Gauss, shown thermal differntial
	4] Clark, Hadamard, Fourier ... show systems BOTH solid state and 
liquid.. 
	5] Thermal 'stuff' in plasma is manifold.


	Controlled entropy seems to be a non violation ... one needs only 
to grab a little as it goes by.

	All the above, obviously, have ALREADY been reduced to practice.


				JHS

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 23 00:59:56 1998
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:58:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: ron kita <tekcorman yahoo.com>
Subject: Patent Validity Checking
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There has been some speculation in regards to the
Stan Meyer patent. Once a patent is issued ,the 
APPLICATION becomes public domain and can be ordered
from the patent office. In the past, I have ordered 
such files and found the content most interesting.
When USC 35-101 "inoperablilty" rejections are raised
by the examiner, a working model must be produced.
I have found in patents with 35-101 rejections
usually contain considerable amounts of information/
data on the function of the device.
Usually I have spent less than $100 acquiring such
files...since there are firms in DC that perform this
function. If one is at the PTO , one can order  the
file for free and read it in the examining room;
however,usually one cannot get a file on the same day.
Best,
Ron Kita
....I am new to vtx-l..and if anyone is taking a poll
i vote for less off topic material.



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 23 02:04:46 1998
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August 24, 1998

Ron wrote (off topically): 
>
>....I am new to vtx-l..and if anyone is taking a poll
>i vote for less off topic material.
>

 I'll go along with Beaty's policy on how he runs his Vortex. I have my 
druthers but he rules. 

It's among the subscribers that have to provide the quality of the 
content, up or down. Not too interactive just to lurk around and soak. 
I do this too. And there are those periods where off-topics are welcome 
breaks. If you go strictly by the original purpose of Vortex, I think 
practically everything discussed currently is 'off-topic'.

-ak-

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To: Vortex

One definition of viscosity (n) is:

n = [Force*Transverse Distance/Area] * 1/Velocity  (force-time/area^2).

There should be energy involved in this:

(force-time/distance)* 1/distance.


[Force*Transverse Distance/Area] could be analogous to a voltage applied to
the plates
of a capacitor.  :-)

The velocity could be the rate of propagation of a pulse down a flat
transmission line made from the plates of the capacitor with impedance (Z)=
(Spacing/Width)*(uo/k*eo)^1/2 (ohms)

Never thought of a transmission line as having viscosity before.  :-)

If my Oracle is correct, pulses on this line
should extract energy from the vacuum and there should be measurable o-u. If
not,I will consider shopping for a better Oracle.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 23 04:21:16 1998
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From: JNaudin509 aol.com
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 07:20:38 EDT
To: tv juno.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com
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On 23/08/1998 05:55:25, tv juno.com wrote :

<< Transient Electron Coherence
 by Tim Vaughan
 
 The following is prompted by a recent experimental observation by
 Jean-Louis Naudin of an anomalous cooling effect in a large coil of wire.....
>>

Hi Tim,

Thank you very much for your excellent document about a "possible" explanation
of the cooling effect that I have observed in my Newman's machine. So, I have
posted your document in my web site at :
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/NewMcool.htm

Thanks again for sharing your thinking with all of us.

Best Regards,

Jean-Louis Naudin
(France)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 23 07:20:37 1998
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 10:12:42 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Nuclear ash with cold fusion - US Navy refs
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  For those seriously interested in nuclear products in cold
fusion, a few good references include the following which were 
done by individuals working for the United States Navy.

Miles, MH, BF Bush, "Heat and Helium Measurements in Deuterated
Palladium", Transactions of Fusion Technology,  26, 156-159 (1994)

Miles, MH, RA Hollins, BF Bush, JJ Lagowski, RE Miles, 1993,
"Correlation of excess power and helium production during D2O and
H2O electrolysis using palladium cathodes ", J. Electroanal. Chem., 346,
99-117.

Miles, MH, Johnson, KB, M Ashraf Imam, 1997, "Anomalous
Heat and Helium Production Using Palladium-Boron Alloys in Heavy
Water", IECEC Proceedings, paper #97538.

Szpak, S, Mosier-Boss, PA, 1997, "Thermal and Nuclear Events
Associated with Pd + D Codeposition", IECEC Proceedings, paper #97120.

Szpak S, Mosier-Boss PA, Smith JJ, 1996, "On the behavior of the
cathodically polarized Pd/D system: Search for emanating radiation",
Physics Lett. A 210, 382.

  There are several hundred more cited - directly or in the refs -
at  http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrefs.html
and   http://kemi.aau.dk/~db/fusion/index.html

   Hope that helps.

     Mitchell Swartz




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 23 07:45:00 1998
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 10:44:23 EDT
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Scott,

I have been thinking about the description of your electric power circuit and
I am curious.  I believe you said that you physically placed the series
resistor and final capacitor of your power supply ripple filter inside the
caloremeter.  I also get the impression that you are sensing current ahead of
the final filter capacitor.  

These components (capacitor and resistor) are not part of the reactor but
rather part of the power supply.The power supply with filter, voltage control
or whatever else should be treated as a black box whose purpose is to deliver
the voltage, current waveform and source impedence you need to a pair of
terminals outside the caloremeter   The place at which the voltage and current
are interesting is between the power supply terminals and the reactor as close
to the reactor as you can get.

Perhaps I misunderstood the circuit description in which case, please ignore
the above.

Best regards,

Bob Briggs

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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 11:58:26 -0400
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Scott,

> 
> Ed, what are you working on that's keeping you from this experiment?
> 
The Kinetic Furnace has taken a lot of time.  We have been in touch with
the inventors, who say they have a unit that is regularly putting out COP's
around 1.8.  I have done many runs with our unit and usually get a bit
above unity COP.  I've been changing water amounts and type of water used. 
I have not yet bubbled argon through the water, and that would be next,
except that Perkins has contacted us and wishes to bring his working unit
up here and demonstate it to us.  He says that he has some new HVAC
instrumentation for measuring output energy.  I would like to compare it to
our present anemometer and thermocouple approach (which is pretty accurate
if I can believe the manufacturer data).

There have been some experiments and other proprietary work that are still
under NDAs including some testing and redesign work on a Brown's gas
generator.  We received a DW Research unit for generating COH2 gas via
underwater carbon arc discharge.  Because I wish to become an old
experimenter, I am prohibited from being a bold experimenter, so progress
is slow.

We are getting close to being able to power up the Hydrosonic Pump.  The
440Vac circuit was finally installed in the lab by contractors, which
involved moving a transformer, running a lot of 3/0 wire, installing two
power distribution panels, etc.  That device, for the moment, is a fairly
low priority.  Other improvements in the way of creature comforts have
slowed things down.

Gene has a talent for finding or attracting people with devices that appear
very promising and you shall have the opportunity to learn what we learn
about them once adequate protections are in place for the parties involved.
 We expect to gain enough altitude to be on the radar screen soon (of
course, that depends on the antenna tilt and that is out of our hands).

Ed Wall

Lab Engineer
Cold Fusion Technology

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 23 09:03:58 1998
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Charles Platt wrote (in part):

> Therefore I urge *someone* to do what needs to be done here, and set up
> *something* to capitalize on the brief blip of interest that my article
in
> Wired may provoke. It is very unfortunate that in the sidebar which will
> accompany the article, I am only able to list three information
resources:
> the vortex web page, Infinite Energy magazine, and the sci.physics.fusion
> Usenet group. None of these focuses specifically on cold fusion, and all
> of them (from my "outsider" perspective) are a bit indiscriminate in
their
> content. You REALLY need a serious, sober link between cold fusion
> research and the web-browsing public. This could be a moderated Usenet 
> news group, a more heavily moderated mail list, or a web page.
> 
Thanks for the feedback.

You may also wish to include Dr. Mitchell Swartz' periodical Cold Fusion
Times, which does focus pretty exclusively on cold fusion issues and
includes a list of other periodicals that accomidate such research news.

Ed Wall

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Subject: The Wire - Breaking News from the Associated Press (http://wire.ap.org/?SLUG=GO
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Now them little suckers are going High Tech. :-)

http://wire.ap.org/?SLUG=GOPHER%2dBITE

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 23 09:36:44 1998
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They're just trying to compete with Drudge.

----------
> From: Frederick J Sparber <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
> To: Vortex-L <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Subject: The Wire - Breaking News from the Associated Press
(http://wire.ap.org/?SLUG=GO
> Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 12:10 PM
> 
> Now them little suckers are going High Tech. :-)
> 
> http://wire.ap.org/?SLUG=GOPHER%2dBITE
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 23 11:39:21 1998
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Subject: Re: Why ROOTS needs some guidance
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--=====================_903908408==_
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Dear Charles Platt,

I have just scanned some of your writing on the net and my favorable
impression of your talent has been strengthened.

ROOTS has been keeping as low a profile as possible to this point.  The
reasons are several, but the two most important are:  

1.  This work originated in 1981 with Dr. Leonid Grigorov, a brilliant
polymer physicist, in the former USSR.  We found it when the Cold War ended
and went to Moscow in 1992.  We have been supporting a half-dozen Russian
scientists and three floors of laboratories there ever since.  There is
real danger to Grigorov and possibly other members of his team until we can
afford to relocate them to California.  We are close to accomplishing this
but it may take a few more months.  If the work surfaces in a media circus,
as happened with the ceramic superconductors just over a decade ago and
with cold fusion in 1989, they could be attacked as traitors for having
sold a monumental breakthrough to an American firm.  Such attacks are
weekly occurances in the Nationalist and Communist press in Russia along
with growing anti-semitic sentiment (they happen to be Jewish).

2.  ROOTS, although it has obtained a Landmark U.S. Patent last month, and
filed another, needs to file perhaps 14 more to complete an inner picket
fence around our intellectual property.  Without that, predatory companies,
such as GE, can put 100 people to work in the snap of a finger and roll
over our small company with impunity.  A year ago GE paid $128.7 million to
FONAR for infringing two of the patents reflecting the invention of MRI.

The attached article appeared in the internet version of WIRED last month.
I have annotated my responses, but have not forwarded this correction to
anyone who has not contacted us directly.  When our names are searched on
the net, the wired article comes up often enough to have us concerned.
Looking at the staff names for WIRED on-line yesterday, neither writer's
name appears and I wonder if they have been Terminated as Brody was by
Superconductor Week a month before he wrote this hit piece.

Do you have any suggestions?  

If you can help us develop a PR strategy, perhaps accepting payment in
ROOTS stock, we would be very much interested.

Mark Goldes
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--=====================_903908408==_--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 23 11:54:40 1998
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From: energy backspace.org
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Gentlemen,

My apologies for delays in posting, I am still having problems with my
mail server and am depending on others for updates on what is
forthcoming.

" PUT UP OR SHUT UP " is bartalk that is not the language of the
scientific community, Mr Horwood and one does not know if one should
even recognise it as communications.  Mr Horwood and Mr Rothwell are
apparently leave of what ever sense they had in the first place.

Mr Rothwell is obviously uncomfortable with the findings one is making
public and will be satisfied withnothing less than experimental evidence
to support the claims that a DC water splitter can be designed and have
patents recognised by the US Patent Office, especially one producing
gase at a rate in excess of standard electrolysis.

He shall have it, in full detail.

One recognised the important political role of such a device in the
stablisation of the world's economic and environmental problems.

In fact, a mere dual fuel retro-fit conversion kit to the 550 million
that switched between petroleum and hydrogen according to demand would
immediately have the world's energy demands for oil, and if the on board
electrolysis system was set to act as a catalyst to the hydrocarbon fuel
at low speeds, a decrease in excess of 50% of all pollution from said
internal combustion engines - and an equivalent number of stand motors.

Given that such a decrease in pollution and increase in performance
would be retro-fit to available technology in a low-tech or intermediate
technological fashion, it is a wonder that government and corporations
have not rush to develop and exploit such systems.

One would be happy to post the details of our experimental validation
and have in fact contacted an US based systems engineer capable of
managing such a commission for an estimate of costs.  The legal
agreement between the client, the commissioned engineer and the
manufacturers will be bound by a legally written contract and will be
subject to local laws.  The commission client shall own the all
materials involved from start to finish but not the intellectual
property for which they will pay a license fee for each system
completed  They will supply a suitable donor vehicle and pay for all
labour costs ensued.  Terms to be agreed up on by all three parties.

• The electrolyte free DC water splitter based on the patented Cold
Fusion work of Stanley Meyer ( source: Dr Mallove.  The Art Bell Show
and The Express ) is a seperate profect and should be posted freely for
as widespread independent verification as is possible.

But before one " put one's goods on the table ", one would like to know;
1) whose table it is,
2) what house rules apply and, 
3) what if anything lies under the table.  

• One would not like to think that one was presenting one's findings to
individuals that keep files on one's sexual history in the way they did
on other scientist in the field, 
 
• One would like to think that any files said individuals were keep on
one's self were open to the public in line with the freedom of
information act,

• And that all due legal duty of care for said information was attended
and that any proceeding were subject to the laws of the country in which
they take place.

If those conditions can be confirmed I will proceed.

One notes the legal duty of any publishers, web server hosts and
editor-in-chief to ensure the veracity of any reporting on these
matters.

We dont want this to turn into an Art Bell Show, do we?

Sincerely,

John Allan
Energy Solutions, London
+44 181 533 5880

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 23 13:16:05 1998
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        energy gold.globalcafe.co.uk
Subject: Further clarification: DC cell/hydrogen powered car projects
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Gentlemen,

with reference to all previous emails on the matter of Mr Stanley Meyer
and other new hydrogen technologies.

One needs further clarification,

Is Mr Rotwell acting and making statements on behalf of Infinite Energy
at all or any times?

Will all and any contracting be established in favour of Mr Rothwell or
of the holding company owning Infinite Energy magazine?

Could you please send the respective attorney's details so that one may
commence the legal process of commission? 

Important note; 

Which professional body shall any or all collaborations be governed by?

In the case that Mr Rothwell is and has been acting on his own private
interests, 

or on behalf of other third parties unknown to us, 

could Dr Mallove please supply the details of the legal advisers that
encouraged the aforementioned actions on behalf of the Infinite Energy
team,

and sanctioned the pejorative use of the said incomplete and prejudicial
evidence?

In one's opinion, this may be information reasonably requested in time
by the estate of the late Mr Stanley Meyer, who would be 57 to day if he
had not so tragically met with untimely death.  God rest his soul.

For sake of notification only, in lieu of an officiating professional
body, one is sending a copying of this legal request to Dr Mitchell
Swartz, editor of Cold Fusion Times to ensure that all further
communication will be held in the public domain.  

No association with Dr Swartz, or Cold Fusion Times, or any subsidiary
industries is infered directly or indirectly. 

Dr Swartz and others have informed that it would be wisest counsel not
to further associate themselves with ourselves although under the
freedom of speech your country affords its citizens, they may feel free
to express their opinions and any supply further information that they
may be useful or supportative of a positive outcome, such as a copy of
the files held on Mr Stanely Meyer.

On a personal note to Ms Soo Seddon, who has entirely by default been
engaged in this matter, it would again be wisest counsel to avoid
putting into writing any further sentiments that may be used against her
or those with whom she has been elected and paid to act as professional
representative in the UK.

Sincere concern for the welfare and public representation of the
scientific community is voiced.

Your written response requested with 7 days,


John Allan

Energy Solutions, London
energy gold.globalcafe.co.uk

22 August 1998

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 23 14:56:10 1998
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 17:51:32 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: The List
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To: Vortex; Charles Platt >INTERNET:cp panix.com

Charles Platt writes:

     I need information about recent cold fusion research.

     I would gladly pay an annual fee for a heavily moderated list describing
     recent research.

I think a web page would be better than a list, but either one is out of the
question, I am afraid. The CF scientists will not participate. They do not
engage in any sort of e-mail. There are several reasons:

Many do not speak English well.

They are generally old, and uninterested in computers. Some of them do not
even own computers, as you see from the papers reproduced in the ICCF7
proceedings. Les Case does not appear to own an  electric typewriter.

They are terribly busy. Too busy for their own good, I am afraid. If they
devoted a little more time to publishing, posting and lecturing about their
results they would garner more support and funding. They do not see it that
way.

They tend to be traditionalists who publish papers in conference proceedings
and journals.

Some of the best ones are prohibited by their laboratory or employers from
discussing their work, except in formal papers which are cleared by management
beforehand. The reasons are varied. Some companies want to protect potentially
valuable trade secrets. Many labs are embarrassed, and want to suppress the
information and stop the research.

Finally, sad to say, not much happens in cold fusion. You do not need to keep
track of late breaking developments because there aren't any. Compare the ICCF
proceedings from year to year, and you will find that people putter along
doing pretty much the same thing year after year. They are old and work at a
slow pace, and they have no funding and no equipment, so jobs that ought to
take weeks take years instead.


     In the months since I became acquainted with cold fusion and its
     proponents at the Vancouver conference in April, I have come to the
     conclusion that this is an extremely important area of research. Clearly
     it deserves a better communication channel.

Yes indeed! But I fear the CF scientists themselves would not take advantage a
better communication channel, and God only knows where the money for this
channel would come from.


     Most of the principals in cold fusion are of retirement age, or getting
     there. You really need to attract younger participants.

Quite right. That is one of the points McKubre made in his closing remarks at
ICCF7 (see the I.E. transcript.) Unfortunately, in my experience young
scientists are more conservative than old scientists, and less willing to
stick their necks out. And the establishment will come down like a ton of
bricks on a young scientist who tries to study CF. If he or she is not fired
outright, his career will be permanently sidetracked. He will face intense
abuse and humiliation. Some of the finest CF scientists in the U.S.,
professional scientists with years of experience,  have been forced to work in
menial jobs and denied the use of telephones and copy machines, never mind
mass spec machines and laboratory equipment.


     This is a PR problem . . .

Yes and also a political problem. I am afraid I see no solution to it. Our
only hope is a demonstration which pushes establishment opposition aside.


     A very long article I have just written on cold fusion (strongly
     advocating more funding for research) is very likely to appear in the
     November-dated issue of Wired magazine, on sale in the last week of
     October. I believe this article is more wholeheartedly positive, and
     longer, than any other feature on cold fusion that has appeared in
     national-circulation magazines during the past eight years.

You have done a wonderful thing, Mr. Platt. We owe you a debt of gratitude. I
hope the article has a positive effect on the field, bringing in new blood. I
hope that your career does not suffer when you support unpopular and
controversial science.


     Therefore I urge *someone* to do what needs to be done here, and set up
     *something* to capitalize on the brief blip of interest that my article
     in Wired may provoke.

We will do our best at I.E., working on a shoestring. I hope that we can get
the CF scientists to cooperate, but they are, in general the most pig-headed,
uncooperative, argumentative people I have ever dealt with. They have to be
pig headed. As Mizuno said to me many years ago, "If we were not such stubborn
jerks we would have pushed out of this field long ago."


     Maybe you all know this already ... in which case, forgive me for
     restating the obvious.

The obvious should be restated, because people deny it. For years I have been
making similar statements. I am delighted to see a respected reporter like
yourself back me up by saying the same, obvious things.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 23 15:20:46 1998
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Subject: Re: Plans for DC water splitter
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John -

   >  One would like to think that any files said
   >  individuals were keep on one's self were open to the
   >  public in line with the freedom of information act [...]

What on earth does FOIA, relating to taxpayer-owned records kept by the US
government, have to do with this?!

	...

  > If those conditions can be confirmed I will proceed.

In other words, if you can prove that they haven't hidden secret files away
somewhere, you'll be OK with that?

How do you propose to "prove" this negative situation? Search their homes
and offices? Dig up their back yards? File a FOIA request? How will you
ever know there aren't secret files?

Seriously, all you need to do is say they are there some, and nobody can
prove there aren't any. Jed or Gene can deny it all they want, but I
suspect you will never be satisfied by those denials. And that puts the
situation right about where you want it, doesn't it?

One does begin to think one is pushing one's leg here, doesn't one.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 23 17:03:18 1998
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At 10:44 AM 8/23/98 EDT, BriggsRO aol.com wrote:

>I am curious.  I believe you said that you physically placed the series
>resistor and final capacitor of your power supply ripple filter inside the
>caloremeter.  I also get the impression that you are sensing current ahead of
>the final filter capacitor.  

Correct...provided that by "ahead" you mean "on the power supply side of
the final filter capacitor".

>These components (capacitor and resistor) are not part of the reactor but
>rather part of the power supply.

I have chosen to make them part of the reactor.  They are enclosed in the
calorimeter envelope.  If they dissipate heat, it will be measured.

>The place at which the voltage and current
>are interesting is between the power supply terminals and the reactor as
close
>to the reactor as you can get.

Agreed, and that is where I'm monitoring V & I....it's just that I've
included a couple of extra components in the "reactor" which cause the
voltage and current being monitored to be smoother.

OK?


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 23 17:03:21 1998
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Subject: happenings at Cold Fusion Technology
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Ed, I'd like to congratulate you on providing an informative answer to my
nosy question.  Some investigators dodge and feint when you ask them what
they're doing...you just explained it all in plain English.  Thanks.

At 11:58 AM 8/23/98 -0400, Ed Wall wrote:

>The Kinetic Furnace has taken a lot of time.
>He says that he has some new HVAC
>instrumentation for measuring output energy.  I would like to compare it to
>our present anemometer and thermocouple approach (which is pretty accurate
>if I can believe the manufacturer data).

By all means, compare independent measures of the same quantity.  If they
don't match pretty well, something's wrong. 

How are you measuring the input energy?...power analyzer?  

This probably won't happen to you but I'll tell the story anyway: I once
saw a guy operating a Dranetz power analyzer to measure the total energy
delivered to a device over a 5 minute interval.  At the beginning of the
interval, he started a stopwatch and simultaneously powered up the Dranetz,
already programmed to integrate energy. At the end of the test, he pressed
the key to command the Dranetz to report the total energy consumed.
Problem: the Dranetz took about 45 seconds to boot up and start
integrating...thus all his tests came out about 15% o-u!!!

>We are getting close to being able to power up the Hydrosonic Pump.

How are you planning to measure the input power to that device?


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 23 18:04:30 1998
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: herman antioch-college.edu
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 16:47:37 -0700
Subject: Re: Cooling Effect Explanation ?
Message-ID: <19980823.173550.8894.1.tv juno.com>
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From: tv juno.com (Tim Vaughan)
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Dear John,

Thanks for the comments about the cooling effect idea.  It is most
helpful.

Do any of the below effects have any bearing on why a motor field coil
would cool
down rather than heat up as would be expected ?   

Where does the heat energy removed from the coil go  ?

The effects I am familiar with result in the transfer of low grade heat
energy from one location to another or some are cyclical efffects like 
the magnetocaloric effect ( the cooling of some ferromagnetic materials
when
 they are placed in a strong magnetic field).   The cooling effect
observed by Naudin and Dragone seems to be steady state.

I throw out these ideas to stimulate discussion and interest.  I very
much appreciate you input.

Tim

( tv juno.com )

On Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:14:46 -0400 (EDT) John Schnurer
<herman antioch-college.edu> writes:
>y
>
>	Dear Vo... and Jean,
>
>
>	[if you read the month by month in physics and chemistry and 
>electro optics]....
>
>	Not hazarding 'reason' ... just observation:
>
>	
>	1] electrolusis starting at 400 mv reported... from ~ 1810 to 
>present
>	[and by use of a kind 'beside the barn' method]
>
>
>	2] heat loss in [1] reported 1830 to present... and in...
>	3] Nernst, Einstein, Corbino, Hall .... the list goes on and 
>on 
>... Bitter, Gauss, shown thermal differntial
>	4] Clark, Hadamard, Fourier ... show systems BOTH solid state 
>and 
>liquid.. 
>	5] Thermal 'stuff' in plasma is manifold.
>
>
>	Controlled entropy seems to be a non violation ... one needs 
>only 
>to grab a little as it goes by.
>
>	All the above, obviously, have ALREADY been reduced to 
>practice.
>
>
>				JHS
>
>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 23 19:38:09 1998
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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 22:33:41 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Further clarification: DC cell/hydro
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To: Vortex; >INTERNET:energy gold.globalcafe.co.uk

John Allan wrote:

     Mr Rothwell is obviously uncomfortable with the findings one is making
     public and will be satisfied with nothing less than experimental
     evidence to support the claims that a DC water splitter can be designed
     . . .

You misunderstand, as usual. I will not be satisfied with experimental
evidence to support the claims. Not a bit. I would not trust experimental
evidence coming from you or anyone you associate with. I must have a machine.
You said you would be "happy" to deliver one, so do it!

Allan tries to wiggle out of his offer by posting legalistic BS:

     Could you please send the respective attorney's details so that one may
     commence the legal process of commission?

Yo! John: There is no legal process. I do not need a lawyer. It is my money
and I can spend it any way I like. You offered a machine. I accepted. I wrote
a purchase order to you via e-mail. If you accept, you will show up at our
door with a machine, let my agent test it, and if it works you walk away
$10,000 richer. What are you worried about? You have no reason to delay. If it
works but I refuse to accept it, you can easily find another customer. If you
had a thousand working machines you could sell them in a few weeks for $10,000
apiece and win instant fame worldwide.


     Important note;

     Which professional body shall any or all collaborations be governed by?

No professional body. Everything will be done by my orders, according to my
specifications, subject to my approval, because I am the customer. The
customer gets to decide. My agent and I will decide if the machine does what
you claim. If we say it does, you get the money. If we say it doesn't, you
pack up the machine and take it home, and you have wasted a trip.


     In one's opinion, this may be information reasonably requested in time
     by the estate of the late Mr Stanley Meyer, who would be 57 to day if he
     had not so tragically met with untimely death.  God rest his soul.

Devil take him! What does he have to do with it, anyway? I can't buy a machine
from a dead man. YOU made the offer, you have your commission, so you fork
over the goods. If you have to negotiate with his estate executors that's your
problem. I will have nothing to do with them.


     On a personal note to Ms Soo Seddon, who has entirely by default been
     engaged in this matter, it would again be wisest counsel to avoid
     putting into writing any further sentiments that may be used against her
     or those with whom she has been elected and paid to act as professional
     representative in the UK.

Oh ho! So, Mr. Allan, your short career as a con artist is coming to an
end -- nobody offered money down for your machine. You have decided to
practice intimidation instead. Well, you picked the wrong target. Soo is
the last person in England you can intimidate.


     Your written response requested with 7 days,

You won't have to wait that long with me! Here is your answer. I will violate
the forum rules in order to explain this to you as clearly as possible so
there can be no misunderstandings. You will get no personal information about
me, my lawyers, or the magazine. It is none of your business. You have your
purchase order, and you will get the $10,000 wire transfer as agreed, and that
is all you will get. You can stop wasting your time posting off topic messages
asking for nonexistent secret reports about sex; we don't carry 'em. You will
draft no bloody agreement. You will either show up with the machine, and wait
patiently while we test it, or you are a scoundrel, a liar, a crook, a fool,
and a con artist and I say to you once and for all: Bugger Off! I will not
address your messages again, unless you wish to tell me when you will deliver
the machine.

I have never suggested that anyone be thrown out of this forum before, but if
you keep this up I hope the readers will ask Bill Beaty to toss you out.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 23 20:10:40 1998
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Subject: [off topic] Re: Leviton Commercial Specification Grade Occupancy Sensors 
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On Sat, 22 Aug 1998, Akira Kawasaki wrote:
August 23, 1998
Given:
 > http://smarthome.com/commercial.html
Nice Leviton website for various IR motion detector products without
spotlights which I am used to seeing. 
Does these and other IR motion detectors work during background high
temperatures? I think not.

-ak-

----------------------
Hi Akira, 
 Actually the answer is YES. (at least those manufactured for & in the
alarm industry) They are set and walk-test by people 98.6 body
temperature. If there is a weakness with heat (temp-wise) it's exactly
~98.6. :) slow movement can be increased with little detection. But, 
above that temp. the same system (PIR Unit) will see you as cold moving
through the hotter zones (covering or exposing heat behind you to the
zone) if you cover 2-3
zones = alarm trigger! cause you moved, and exposed the higher temperature
to the sensors zone, thus creating heat detection in that zone. 
  In real life experimentation, try walking through a zoned area with a
shield in front of you, either Icy Cold or red HOT, It should be
detected! The sensors zones are not so much moving heat body temp, BUT
STABILIZING
ON THE HEAT "PICTURE" IT IS VIEWING  - MOVE ANYTHING FROM THE PICTURE
(HOT
OR COLD) AND HAVE IT HAPPEN IN TWO OR MORE ZONES< YOU'LL HAVE AN ALARM
CONDITION! 
  Sorry about the CAPS I'm _not_ Yelling this, but that is what they SEE.
Years back, they added ZONES to prevent 'false alarm signatures' but over
all, your sensor can look at blazing hot pipes, fridgid cold pipes and be
content with this now stabilized IR_PICTURE. JUST DON'T MOVE IT! If
anything cooler blocks the hot or anything hotter crosses in front of the
COLD areas. ALARM!

Most do have functioning ranges of 30f-135f (plastic fatigue melt down?)

Obviously special sensors for cold area have heaters and hot area have
coolers, but these are usually industrial or .mil spec.

Hope that helps
-=se=-
ekwall2 diac.com

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August 23, 1998

STEVE,

THANKS YOU FOR THE INFORMATION WITH EXPLANATION AND ELUCIDATION! Very
nice. It helps with the bigger picture of an active industry. 

The subject spurred me to take apart a consumer level detector to see
behind the fresnel lens and will tinker with the circuit board as time
allows. I see an exposed heat "eye cell" that is mounted in a metal
transistor type can -- the focus of the fresnel lens. Also a photodiode
for the day-night activation option. Interesting. Perhaps it can be
adapted so that it triggers a loud celebration music when it detects an
experiment showing excess heatr.

-ak-

I wrote:
>> Does these and other IR motion detectors work during background high
>> temperatures? I think not.

Steve Ewell wrote:
>  Actually the answer is YES. (at least those manufactured for & in the
> alarm industry) They are set and walk-test by people 98.6 body
> temperature. If there is a weakness with heat (temp-wise) it's exactly
> ~98.6. :) slow movement can be increased with little detection. But,
> above that temp. the same system (PIR Unit) will see you as cold > moving through the hotter zones (covering or exposing heat behind you > to the zone) if you cover 2-3 zones = alarm trigger! cause you moved, > and exposed the higher temperature
> to the sensors zone, thus creating heat detection in that zone.
>   In real life experimentation, try walking through a zoned area with >a shield in front of you, either Icy Cold or red HOT, It should be
> detected! The sensors zones are not so much moving heat body temp, BUT
> STABILIZING ON THE HEAT "PICTURE" IT IS VIEWING  - MOVE ANYTHING FROM > THE PICTURE (HOT OR COLD) AND HAVE IT HAPPEN IN TWO OR MORE ZONES< 
> YOU'LL HAVE AN ALARM CONDITION!
>   Sorry about the CAPS I'm _not_ Yelling this, but that is what they > SEE.
> Years back, they added ZONES to prevent 'false alarm signatures' but 
> over all, your sensor can look at blazing hot pipes, fridgid cold 
> pipes and be content with this now stabilized IR_PICTURE. JUST DON'T 
> MOVE IT! If anything cooler blocks the hot or anything hotter crosses > in front of the COLD areas. ALARM!
> 
> Most do have functioning ranges of 30f-135f (plastic fatigue melt > down?)
> 
> Obviously special sensors for cold area have heaters and hot area have
> coolers, but these are usually industrial or .mil spec.
> 
> Hope that helps

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 02:53:05 1998
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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:46:59 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: Re: Cooling Effect Explanation ?
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Tim,

I will print out your message. I like where your coming from, looking for 
a mechanism to explain/guide you. I'm not in with this priestly/hand of 
god throw the parts up in the air and see if they come up with something. 
There should be a method. Bit busy at the mo.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 04:32:59 1998
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Flat Line ZPE Pump?
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 05:26:21 -0600
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To: Vortex

The impedance (Zo) of a flat transmission line:

Zo = [Spacing/width]* 377/(k)^1/2  (ohms) where k is the dielectric
constant.

If the line is terminated with a resistor equal to Zo, 1/2 the voltage will
be across the resistor and the other half will be across the
line thus the power will be w = (.5V)^2/Zo.

A piece of printed circuit board (0.060" thick x 6.5" wide by a foot or so
long, should give a Zo of about 0.06/6.0 * 377/(2)^1/2 = 2.66 ohms.

Thus a terminating resistor of 2.66 ohms will
be required.

Put the calorimeter around the terminating resistor and measure
P(out)/P(in)while sending pulses down the line.

If it ain't ZPE o-u, then it must be a heat pump or just a PC board with
pulses going through the copper coatings.  :-(

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 05:14:56 1998
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Subject: Re: Further clarification: DC cell/hydro
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 98 08:13:32 -0000
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From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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Jed wrote:

>I have never suggested that anyone be thrown out of this forum before, but if
>you keep this up I hope the readers will ask Bill Beaty to toss you out.

Agreed! This  over-puffed, obstinate  John Allan is one of this biggest 
wastes of bandwidth this forum has ever seen. 

Still, if Allan delivers a Meyer machine here that passes our testing -- 
and this should be very easy to confirm based on STP gas volume produced 
per unit time, plus input energy measured digitally -- all his puffery 
will have had some purpose. But I suspect he is the cipher  (zero) that I 
take him to be.

Alternately, if bad words between us prevent Allan from coming here, I 
suggest he come post haste to Scott Little's lab for testing the Meyer 
machine. I predict Allan will arrive at neither place.


Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

Ph:  603-228-4516
Fax: 603-224-5975

  editor infinite-energy.com

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Scott wrote:
<snip>
>you just explained it all in plain English.  Thanks.

I believe in transparency.  We need to be able to rely on each other for
help and I can see from your work (which you thoroughly reveal) an approach
that I would be doing well to match.
> 
> By all means, compare independent measures of the same quantity.  If they
> don't match pretty well, something's wrong. 
> 
> How are you measuring the input energy?...power analyzer?  
> 
We have an Amprobe DM-II Power Analyzer that works for sinusoids at 50 or
60 Hz, single or 3 phase.  

> This probably won't happen to you but I'll tell the story anyway: I once
> saw a guy operating a Dranetz power analyzer to measure the total energy
> delivered to a device over a 5 minute interval.  At the beginning of the
> interval, he started a stopwatch and simultaneously powered up the
Dranetz,
> already programmed to integrate energy. At the end of the test, he
pressed
> the key to command the Dranetz to report the total energy consumed.
> Problem: the Dranetz took about 45 seconds to boot up and start
> integrating...thus all his tests came out about 15% o-u!!!
>
Yes, well, I'd rather learn from other's mistakes than my own.  It's
quicker and easier on the ego.  Our runs have been at least 30 minutes,
with COP's around 1.01 to 1.15.  There seems to be a weak correlation with
the amount of water in the thing (which is measured crudely by the current
draw).  The Amprobe tells you immediately after startup that it has
recorded an interval each second.  We used Dranetz machines in FAA.  I
never did like them.  A Fluke 123 could run circles around it for most of
what I needed.
 
> >We are getting close to being able to power up the Hydrosonic Pump.
> 
> How are you planning to measure the input power to that device?
> 
Amprobe.  I will check it with other instruments before coming to any
conclusions.
> 

Ed Wall
Cold Fusion Technology

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 07:23:13 1998
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At 07:55 8/24/98 -0400, Ed Wall wrote:

>The Amprobe tells you immediately after startup that it has
>recorded an interval each second.  We used Dranetz machines in FAA.  I
>never did like them.

There was an easy fix for this guy's problem.  He just needed to have the
Dranetz all warmed up and running and then press "energy report" at the
start of the test and again at the end of the test.  Subtract the two
values and there's the energy consumed during the test.

>> How are you planning to measure the input power to that device?

>Amprobe.  I will check it with other instruments before coming to any
>conclusions.

That's electrical input power to the motor...not mechanical input power to
the H-pump.  Thus, at some point, you will find yourself wondering what the
motor's efficiency is.  Don't make the mistake of assuming that it's always
equal to or less than the nameplate efficiency rating.  Nowadays, the
electric motor industry competes by selling a slightly overloaded 80 hp
motor as a 100 hp motor (an honest man at Lincoln electric told me this).
Thus the efficiency generally improves somewhat from the nameplate
efficiency as the load is reduced to ~75% of rated load.

Let me know if you want to build a dynamometer.  I've got some new ideas
which might make it relatively easy.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 07:23:15 1998
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Thanks for the clarification Scott.  I guess that the only penalty for putting
those components on the reactor side of your measurements is that your
Pout/pPin is a little more conservatively stated with the heat dissipation of
the R and C (which are not part of the actual reaction) subtracted from Pin
and added to Pout;  probably a trivial percentage of the total power.  

Regards,

Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 07:58:47 1998
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August 24, 1998

Charles Platt wrote:

> You REALLY need a serious, sober link between cold fusion
> research and the web-browsing public. This could be a moderated Usenet
> news group, a more heavily moderated mail list, or a web page.

Cold Fusion, searched by a web browser, will primarily show first a
computer program that has 'stolen' the name as it's own. So you will not
see much search results unless you see the entire list which runs into
the thousands. 

Search for websites under Cold Fusion Energy. Then you will access the
many websites dealing with cold fusion excess energy and related issues.
A ton of it. I am surprised that comments on the Vortex has not
suggested much furthur access by you on cold fusion/excess
energy/transmutations/LENR/over-unity/inventions & patents. 

I finally read your post after several comments were made. I hope this
helps your effort for CF.

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 08:24:35 1998
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From: "David Callaghan" <DCallaghan CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk>
To: <freenrg-l eskimo.com>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Equation units
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:22:49 +0100
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Hello everyone!

Can I be sold bold as to propose that everyone strives to use SI units when
displaying calculations.  It would make life a lot easier when trying to
evaluate proposed formula.

I know that using other units simplifies some equations, but I for one would
rather have everything based on the same units.  It also makes everything
easier to remember!

I apologise to our US friends, who are still stuck in the imperial world
from which the UK is still struggling to escape.  I could eat a pound of
cheese, but a kilogram is bound to give me nightmares!?!  Can you pass me
that 53/57ths piece of wood please!?!

I am writing this after receiving a formulae from someone containing,
centimetres, pounds, thou and mils (whatever they are!).  All published work
I have seen has used SI units for as long as I can remember.

(No, I don't want a unit converter thank you very much, just uniformity)
;-}

PS Now everyone on VORTEX has attacked everyone else a few times, can we get
back to somewhere near topic? Apologies must go to Fred Sparber, who
proposes interesting ideas regardless, even if he doesn't use SI units!
<0.060" thick x 6.5" wide by a foot or so long> :-)

Best regards

David 'spends most of his time converting units or finding out what they
are' Callaghan
DCallaghan CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.UK

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 08:30:03 1998
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>Let me know if you want to build a dynamometer.  I've got some new ideas
>which might make it relatively easy.

Scott,

If and when we need a dynamometer we will use a standAad, tried and true 
commercial in-line dynamometer as Jim Griggs and others have already used 
in  testing. But thanks for the repeated offer.

Best, Gene

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-----Original Message-----
From: David Callaghan <DCallaghan CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk>
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>; vortex-l@eskimo.com
<vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 9:25 AM
Subject: Equation units



David Callaghan wrote:


>Hello everyone!
>
>PS Now everyone on VORTEX has attacked everyone else a few times, can we
get
>back to somewhere near topic? Apologies must go to Fred Sparber, who
>proposes interesting ideas regardless, even if he doesn't use SI units!
><0.060" thick x 6.5" wide by a foot or so long> :-)

Purist! Would you settle for a Slug of Furlongs per Fortnight?   :-)

Regards,  Frederick
>
>Best regards
>
>David 'spends most of his time converting units or finding out what they
>are' Callaghan
>DCallaghan CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.UK
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 09:12:21 1998
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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
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To: Vortex

Scott Little writes regarding the Griggs machine:

     That's electrical input power to the motor...not mechanical input power
     to the H-pump.  Thus, at some point, you will find yourself wondering
     what the motor's efficiency is.  Don't make the mistake of assuming that
     it's always equal to or less than the nameplate efficiency rating.

Actually, I would not go by the nameplate. The manual for a good motor shows
an efficiency curve for different load conditions. Efficiency varies hugely.
Actually, I would not go with that either. The best thing to do, I think, is
to enclose the entire motor in the calorimeter and measure  heat from all
sources, including the motor, stirrer, and the dynamometer if there is one
attached. Dynamometers get hot, and I presume the heat comes from friction.
The Perkins-Pope machine is fully enclosed in the calorimeter, by design. The
Griggs gadget is rather large, but some similar arrangement may be possible.
For example, in a four-hour flowing water test you might run the water through
a hose, wrap the hose around the motor, and cover the whole shebang with
insulation, making the water carry off most of the waste heat from the
motor before it enters the Gadget. But that might damage the motor or the
gadget . . .


     Let me know if you want to build a dynamometer.  I've got some new ideas
     which might make it relatively easy.

We have a good one. It is a standard off-the-shelf model. New, good and easy
ideas are not wanted in this application. We want old, stodgy methods, so that
no sensible person can argue that unknown errors in our methods are causing
artifacts. Extraordinary claims call for the most ordinary, vanilla proof you
can come up with. No innovations please!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 09:22:41 1998
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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:11:43 -0600
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For those SI impaired.  :-)

http://www.crct.polymtl.ca/FACT/websites.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 09:27:47 1998
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At 12:43 PM 8/21/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>  Scott appears to have tamed the reaction somehow. He has found a way
>to create plasma in a benign, quiet reaction. That's grand, but ummm . . .
>it may defeat the purpose. Whatever destroyed the cathode may have been
>linked to the excess heat.

    My point exactly.  No criticism of Scott intended, but I have
seen--many years ago--significant energy storage in AC arcs.  I have also
seen equipment blow up when the negative resistance effect got out of hand.
 It would be nice to do the experiment and find out if all the energy
released in these events was stored earlier, but back then I wasn't able to
design an experiment that would do so, and I'm sure we are talking millions
to do it now.  The most dramatic of these events took place at Beck's
Engraving in Philadelphia very near the Liberty Bell.  The quartz tube
(containing high-pressure Xenon) melted and (I guessed later) the quartz
cooled in the air then embedded itself in the wall.  In any case, the wall
had to be painted afterwards.  The fuses blew at the Philadelphia Electric
substation next door, so it is not easy to place a limit on the power drawn
during the event.  (I was not there when this event happened, my father and
Norm Macbeth were.)  Much later I was able to show how it could have
happened, and to duplicate the phenomena in the lab.  But the lab
duplicatation event had a line isolation transformer in the circut which
limited the power draw during the non-linear event to about three to four
hundred kilowatts.

    Now the power dissipated during the final event was about 20 times the
power we believed stored in the circut.  We knew that additional power was
stored in the arc, but even with generous estimates of all sources of
energy, we were still a bit short.  We wrote it down to sensor placement
and left it at that.  (We had to assume that the energy distribution was
uniform.) After all we were trying to eliminate the possibility of it
happening, not to study the phenomena.

    But you are never going to see this sort of behavior if you don't allow
the plasma to pinch. If you don't see measurements indicating negative
resistance in the arc, then you are not seeing this phenomena.  (If you do
go out hunting this snark, be very, very careful.  Today we would say that
the behavior is chaotic.  The runs involved starting the lamp cold, and
each event had a different pattern until we finally broke the lamp.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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To: Vortex

Just suppose that Joule's mechanical equivalent of heat experiment is
intrinsically O-U because
mechanical agitation of the water is already extracting ZPE from the vacuum.

Then, what is the REAL specific heat of water? The Joule?  :-)

Go Figure what a water flow calorimeter is telling you about o-u.

Have a nice day.     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 09:45:48 1998
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Scott, Ed Wall
	Consider using industrial PWM(Pulse Width Modulation) motor
controllers for your cell's current control. The duty cycle is controllable,
and the average current can be measured at the input. Modern devices are
better then 95% efficient, and can control the duty cycle from 0 to 99% or
so. I use two in my electric Zebra.

Hank Scudder

> ----------
> From: 	Ed Wall[SMTP:ewall infinite-energy.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Saturday, August 22, 1998 2:01 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: Inc. W Run 3 results
> 
> Jed writes:
> 
> > I mentioned the possibility that the excess heat has disappeared because
> the
> > cathode is no longer stressed so much it disintegrates. Here is a more
> prosaic
> > hypothesis along these lines. Scott cleaned up and smoothed out the
> input
> > power. Perhaps when the cathode is being destroyed by cavitation, input
> power
> > has many spikes and sudden fluctuations which are lost, so input power
> is
> > underestimated and it looks like there is excess heat. Better power
> monitoring
> > would make the excess go away. Scott should confer with Ed Wall about
> this,
> > when Ed has time, maybe in his next life.
> 
> We realized early on that power monitoring was a problem and initial
> experiments were simple, ignoring spikes and making guesses at average
> voltages.  The magazine article does not claim that we had yet
> successfully
> replicated the work of Ohmori and Mizuno, insofar as finding strong
> confirmation of overunity.  Gene stated (p.9) that the experiment "looks
> tailor-made to spread like wildfire."  He quotes their ICCF-7 paper and
> writes, "We hope they are right."  There was reason to believe that the
> effect is easily reproduced, given the sensational "boiled lightening"
> effect.  Adding capacitance across the cell does make the input power more
> measurable, but the spikes are likely to be where the putative excess
> energy is evolved, particularly if charge clusters are involved.  Rather
> than eliminating the spikes, I suggest that investigators use narrow 
> high-voltage pulses of known power content with a duty cycle sufficient to
> maintain cell temperature.  If most of the electrical energy in the DC
> cells used so far is heating water the old-fashioned way and the
> hard-to-measure spikes are producing the effect we seek, the use of narrow
> pulses just might enhance signal-to-noise dramatically.  My thinking is
> that accurate input power might be figured by measuring power into the
> power supply with a knowledge of the efficiency of the power supply
> learned
> from operating it into an ohmic load that would give me relatively easily
> measured spikes, rather than into the cell with its highly non-linear
> response.  Is this far-fetched?
> 
> I have looked at the cell voltage during incandescence with a 100 MHz
> scope
> and not surprisingly found that there is considerable amplitude at
> frequencies higher than I can measure.  This may require an RF approach.
> 
> Gene did include the caveat "if no mistake has been made" in describing
> the
> work we were doing.  This work was done in the last days of my brief time
> here while on vacation and it was too rushed to be as careful as we would
> have liked.  I did report to Gene that I had gotten the apparent O/U in a
> boil-off, then later discovered that the thermometer was broken, having
> touched the tungsten electrode.  In the confusion that followed, I
> apparently did not convey to Gene what that meant in the stream of
> information I was conveying to him and he wrote the article after I left. 
> I reported this a few weeks go to Vortex.
> 
> He mentions the work of others working at replication with several OU
> results claimed.  At this point, I would have to withdraw our weak claim
> until further work is done, but this does not mean much of anything other
> than a fleeting communication problem between Gene and myself.
> 
> For the immediate future, I have very pressing work in other areas.  I do
> not anticipate that putting together a pulsing power supply will not be
> tremendously difficult, but almost nothing proceeds as easily as plans
> predict, in my experience.  Resources of time and money are always
> limited.
> 
> I am thinking of using IGBT's to release a stored charge.  Suggestions
> from
> those with such experience are certainly welcome.  
> 
> Ed Wall
> 

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Subject: VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED - Status!
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:48:59 -0500
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HELLO, EVERYONE!

i've been on vacation and have not checked my e-mail.  can anyone give me a summary of what's going on with this vortex "discovery" thing?  is it legit?  anybody got any ideas on if its for real or not?  if you think its real, explain why. if you DON'T th
ink its real, explain why. THANKS!

Allen

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 10:10:20 1998
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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Intrinsic Over-Unity Error?
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To: Vortex

Frederick J Sparber writes:

     Just suppose that Joule's mechanical equivalent of heat experiment is
     intrinsically O-U because mechanical agitation of the water is already
     extracting ZPE from the vacuum.

Not likely, for two reasons:

1. It would not be reversible. Many experiments converting heat into energy
have shown energy equivalent to heat = heat equivalent to energy. Unless your
hypothesis is that all forms of heat engines also secretly tap the ZPE.

2. It would be inconsistent. Presumably, different methods of tapping ZPE
produce different results. That's how it works with other sources of energy.
Some waterwheels work better than others, and efficiency falls when the river
runs low. Efficiency varies with conditions and changes over time. You would
collect lots of ZPE one day and little the next, and the calorimeter would not
calibrate properly. Every form of heat engine would not tap the ZPE at
precisely the same level.


     Then, what is the REAL specific heat of water?

It's an approximation, even under the present rules. No calorimeter or heat
engine is perfect.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 10:37:06 1998
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 3 results
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At 12:11 PM 8/22/98 EDT, BriggsRO aol.com wrote:
>I recall from the vacuum tube electronics days that filaments were made from
>thoriated tungsten to enhance their electron emission.  Maybe it does other
>things too
 
   It would certainly make a "no O/U" result a failed experiment!  Th-232
has an extremely long half-life, but it also absorbs neutrons to become
U-233. Both of these can fisson, either spontaneously or when bombarded by
neutrons, but both are much more likely to decay by alpha emission.  All
this is enough to make the thoriated tungsten produce a stew of particles,
mostly alphas, near its surface.  This prevents an insulating barrier layer
from forming when the electrode is inactive.  Once you are pulling an arc,
the thorium is just there for the ride.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 11:06:39 1998
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Intrinsic Over-Unity Error?
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   At 01:04 PM 8/24/98 -0400, Jed and Frederick writes
>
>     Just suppose that Joule's mechanical equivalent of heat experiment is
>     intrinsically O-U because mechanical agitation of the water is already
>     extracting ZPE from the vacuum.
>
>Not likely, for two reasons:
>
>1. It would not be reversible. Many experiments converting heat into energy
>have shown energy equivalent to heat = heat equivalent to energy. Unless your
>hypothesis is that all forms of heat engines also secretly tap the ZPE.
>
>2. It would be inconsistent. Presumably, different methods of tapping ZPE
>produce different results. That's how it works with other sources of energy.
>Some waterwheels work better than others, and efficiency falls when the river
>runs low. Efficiency varies with conditions and changes over time. You would
>collect lots of ZPE one day and little the next, and the calorimeter would
not
>calibrate properly. Every form of heat engine would not tap the ZPE at
>precisely the same level.
>
>
>     Then, what is the REAL specific heat of water?
>
>It's an approximation, even under the present rules. No calorimeter or heat
>engine is perfect.


      These issues are well-known, as is the specific heat of 
water even as function of temperature.  Folks here might practice
and try to derive it, along with cooling curves, and waveform
calibration studies.

   
     Lavoisier measured the differences in specific heat between 
arterial and venous blood.  


     Unfortunately, IMO there is little evidence for ZPE(vacuum)
 -- as distinguished from ZPE(lattice) -- to suggest it plays 
any role of consequence.

     Mitchell Swartz



   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 12:15:04 1998
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Intrinsic Over-Unity Error?
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-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com <Blind.Copy.Receiver@compuserve.com>
Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: Intrinsic Over-Unity Error?

Jed wrote:


>To: Vortex
>
>Frederick J Sparber writes:
>
>     Just suppose that Joule's mechanical equivalent of heat experiment is
>     intrinsically O-U because mechanical agitation of the water is already
>     extracting ZPE from the vacuum.
>
>Not likely, for two reasons:
>
>1. It would not be reversible. Many experiments converting heat into energy
>have shown energy equivalent to heat = heat equivalent to energy. Unless
your
>hypothesis is that all forms of heat engines also secretly tap the ZPE.

What is your reference standard? Have you measured the water temperature at
the bottom
of Niagara Falls to see if it is 550/778.26 *
1.0 Btu/lb warmer than at the top, or is it picking up some ZPE as mandated
by Quantum Electrodynamics that particle "collisions"
"can borrow energy from the vacuum" this DOES NOT PRECLUDE intermolecular
"collisions" of the Highly Polar water molecules from extracting
ZPE by the same rules. Note that at the higher
temperature/agitation the "o-u heat" gets greater. Even in the incandescent
W experiments
as soon as the noise/agitation of the water around the discharge dropped,
the o-u
dropped.

Apparently this is why the Calorie is established by the "HEAT" it takes to
raise one
gram of water 1 deg C AT 14.5-15.5 C.

>
>2. It would be inconsistent. Presumably, different methods of tapping ZPE
>produce different results.

Going by the CF (data scatter)record so far, that is exactly the point. :-)

Regards,  Frederick

>
>- Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 13:29:39 1998
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From: Jeane Manning <jmanning axionet.com>
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I assume that I violated Vortex rules in my outraged post last night,
because I don't see it here today.  However, slander against me and
against the Infinite Energy crew should not go entirely without
comment.  No one should have to return from her or his travels to find
that some Loose Cannon has invented quotes and posted nonsense on a
public forum.

In case my post does show up, I will add that today I phoned Don Kelly.
He doesn't remember the letter (probably years ago) mentioning a story
about Stan Meyer which of course is none of our business.  Perhaps
another networker sent it out.
One factor that I'm certain about is that  NONE of the IE staff or
associates was involved in spreading sleazy stories.
So I think that John Allan has stirred up as much trouble as he can
fabricate for now.  On the other hand, I don't underestimate his
creativity.
Jeane Manning

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 13:36:19 1998
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Subject: Re: Almost Friction Over-Unity and Viscosity
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Frederick J Sparber wrote:
> Since viscosity;
>  n = Force*Transverse Length/area*velocity,
> or the ratio of force times distance to area times velocity = energy.
> 
> As far as I can tell, negative viscosity implies spontaneous energy
> production from nothing. :-)

Clasically, I think that is a good conclusion as some fringe theories are needed
to properly postulate what is going on.  "o/u", "aether", and "negative
viscosity" are just terms to describe these unknowns and may not even be the
most accurate way to discuss the forces at play.  My use of the phrase "negative
viscosity" is mostly due to lack of a better term.  I share your confusion!  

The concept of "negative viscosity" to me, revolves about a hypothesis I have
regarding energy adhesion.  For lack of a better example, consider it similar to
molecular adhesion.  The idea came to me as I was fooling around with one of my
favorite mechanisms, the Telsa bladeless pump.  Tesla's design relies on
molecular adhesion and viscosity of a material to move the material along a
certain path.  Given many parallels in nature, I stopped to consider whether
these same mechanisms are similarly expressed in energy structures and could be
used to create density gradients.  These density gradients being the vehicle by
which seemingly o/u behavior would spring forth as the loosely contained excess
"condenses" into a usable form.  Given this premise I then began to reevaluate
Schauberger's reports on "energized water" and research accounts of naturally
occuring vortex structures like tornados. The "how" and the "why" seemed to fall
into place (at least in my mind).  I perpetuate the term "negative viscosity"
only because I think it best describes the inward flow of energy and the various
expressions of the resulting density gradients "with-in" the bounds of existing
theory and mathematical constructs.

My suspicion is that thermodynamics and conservation of energy do not need to be
violated to achieve signatures of these "unknowns".  I maintain the energy is
already there, just in a state that we are unable to descriminate with current
instruments or methods (call it whatever you like; ZPE, aether, etc.).  Efforts
that produce seemingly o/u characteristics are doing nothing more than changing
the expressed state of that energy into something our instruments and methods
CAN quantify.  I think this will be more evident as more and more seemingly o/u
devices are discovered and more in the mainstream realize a complete rewrite of
science is not needed to explain them.

Let me be the first skeptic to raise a hand with regard to any of this.  I just
find it stimulating to consider IF my assumption of energy adhesion is true, HOW
I might be able to manipulate it ...

...  when all is said and done, I could be just plain wrong.  8^)


-- 

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    John E. Steck
      Senior Mechanical Engineer
      Rapid Tooling Applications
      Motorola CE, PCS, Libertyville, IL
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 13:48:07 1998
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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:47:03 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED - Status!
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At 11:48 AM 8/24/98, Guest wrote:
>HELLO, EVERYONE!
>
>i've been on vacation and have not checked my e-mail.  can anyone give me
>a summary of what's going on with this vortex "discovery" thing?  is it
>legit?  anybody got any ideas on if its for real or not?  if you think its
>real, explain why. if you DON'T think its real, explain why. THANKS!
>
>Allen

I think it is fair to say there is insufficient information about the theory.

I, for one, don't know about the legitimacy, but I take this stuff with a
grain of salt and would be unlikely to invest a dime in it or anything
similar for *someone else's* experiments, even with a lot more information.
I too have (what I consider to be) some sound quantitative mathematical
theories, some backed up by computer computations, that indicate the
possibility of an extremely robust and practical energy source (not related
to fluid dynamics).  The math was checked using Mathcad and/or Mathematica,
and checked by others, so I think the theory is a correct application of
presently accepted physical principles.  The simulations indicate a very
practical expected outcome.  I continue to have doubts and to work on more
thorough verification and extension of the theory and enchancement of
programs into practical design tools.

In addition, I have produced various (unrelated) experiments indicating
COPs of up to 1.15.  These are not a dime a dozen, but it is still pretty
easy and cheap to fool yourself.  It is even easier to fool others.

You don't see me out advertising to probably rip off private inestors to
pursue my follies, be they theory or experiment.  In fact, I don't even
consider my work ready for vortex scrutiny, much less for building a
prospectus.

None of us should kid ourselves.  This work is difficult and the
probability of payoff is slim.  I think the odds of success in free energy
enterprises are as slim as winning a major lottery.  When it comes time to
exploit great ideas mother nature seems to always take the prize right from
our hands.  Still, I think it is a worthy and valuable pursuit when our own
money is spent on the task. With the proper evaluations in place,
government grants seem a reasonable and ethical financing approach as well.

I think some of my work is nearing the point of being ready to pursue a
government research grant, but I would not consider advertising for money
from private individuals for any development without a working proof of
principle, a physical experiment.  I don't consider a COP in the
neighborhood of 1.15 a "working experiment" without extreme scientific
scrutiny and replication.  In experiments where I have seen overuinty in
the past it only meant that I had not yet worked hard enough to determine
my errors. I assume this is the case with any lingering unresolved
overunity experiments I have performed to date.  These are on the back
burner now due to the much more interesting theoretical developments.

Investment of major capital by private individuals, especially by
non-expert investors, seems to me to be appropriate to situations where the
COP is high, and the process robust enough for commercialization,
considering entire life cycle economics, and where independent scrutiny of
results is available.

If investors are simply looking for free energy ideas to research they can
check the vortex, sci.physics.fusion, and freenrg logs, and do web
searches.  There are hundreds of them.

I generally am suspicious of strangers doing something that I consider
unethical for me to do.

All that said, I am very interested in hearing what the author zpe has to
say about his theory.  Look forward to hearing all about it next month. 8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Intrinsic Over-Unity Error?
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To: Vortex

Frederick J Sparber asks:

     What is your reference standard? Have you measured the water temperature
     at the bottom of Niagara Falls to see if it is 550/778.26 * 1.0 Btu/lb
     warmer than at the top . . .

I didn't, but as a matter of fact J. P. Joule performed this very experiment
with another waterfall while on his honeymoon. How do you like that? His bride
must have realized what she was getting into, marrying a scientist, if she did
not know already. My point is that the original standards for energy to heat
conversion were both mechanical and electrical. Joule invented the electric
joule heater (not surprisingly) but he also measured the effect of stirring
devices driven by falling weights. There is more than one reference standard.
And later the heat engine designers raised weights and ascertained that the
conversions work in the other direction, taking into account losses to
inefficiency which can be measured precisely using <ta, da!> calorimetry.
So . . . if this hypothesis is true, it has to apply to falling weights,
springs and other mechanical energy devices, just as mass - energy conversion
does; i.e., even a wind up clock annihilates mass. You end up with ZPE
everywhere! Maybe it is everywhere; I wouldn't know.


     . . .  or is it picking up some ZPE as mandated by Quantum
     Electrodynamics that particle "collisions" "can borrow energy from the
     vacuum" this DOES NOT PRECLUDE intermolecular "collisions" of the Highly
     Polar water molecules from extracting ZPE by the same rules.

Well that's over my head. But my point is you have to extend this to falling
weight and springs extracting ZPE, dynamos and batteries driving joule heaters
extracting ZPE, every source of energy tapping ZPE, because all of these are
proven equal and interchangeable. Pretty soon your hypothesis is that every
form of energy is borrowed from ZPE, and the stuff becomes a ubiquitous place
to park or borrow energy, and being ubiquitous it becomes, in a sense,
undetectable, so why do you need it in the first place?

I mentioned that if all forms of energy are ZPE, presumable the energy flow
would be inconsistent, because different methods of tapping ZPE would produce
different results, so one heat engine would do a different amount of work than
another. Fred responds:

     Going by the CF (data scatter) record so far, that is exactly the point.
     :-)

I don't get it. This means CF is tapping *some* energy source unpredictably,
but why should it be ZPE as opposed to nuclear or chemical energy? Different
fission reactors use up more or less fuel. Different auto engines leave more
or less unburned hydrocarbons in the exhaust. The CF scatter data proves that
a great deal of potential energy is left in the fuel; it does not demonstrate
anything about the nature of the fuel. The amount of energy per unit mass of
fuel and the absence of chemical transformations prove it cannot be chemical,
but that's a different story.

- Jed

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-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com <Blind.Copy.Receiver@compuserve.com>
Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: Intrinsic Over-Unity Error?

Why do you even disagree with those who agree with you, Jed?  :-)

Jed wrote:


>To: Vortex
>
>Frederick J Sparber asks:
>
>     What is your reference standard? Have you measured the water
temperature
>     at the bottom of Niagara Falls to see if it is 550/778.26 * 1.0 Btu/lb
>     warmer than at the top . . .
>
>I didn't, but as a matter of fact J. P. Joule performed this very
experiment
>with another waterfall while on his honeymoon. How do you like that? His
bride
>must have realized what she was getting into, marrying a scientist, if she
did
>not know already. My point is that the original standards for energy to
heat
>conversion were both mechanical and electrical. Joule invented the electric
>joule heater (not surprisingly) but he also measured the effect of stirring
>devices driven by falling weights. There is more than one reference
standard.
>And later the heat engine designers raised weights and ascertained that the
>conversions work in the other direction, taking into account losses to
>inefficiency which can be measured precisely using <ta, da!> calorimetry.
>So . . . if this hypothesis is true, it has to apply to falling weights,
>springs and other mechanical energy devices, just as mass - energy
conversion
>does; i.e., even a wind up clock annihilates mass. You end up with ZPE
>everywhere! Maybe it is everywhere; I wouldn't know.
>
>
>     . . .  or is it picking up some ZPE as mandated by Quantum
>     Electrodynamics that particle "collisions" "can borrow energy from the
>     vacuum" this DOES NOT PRECLUDE intermolecular "collisions" of the
Highly
>     Polar water molecules from extracting ZPE by the same rules.
>
>Well that's over my head. But my point is you have to extend this to
falling
>weight and springs extracting ZPE, dynamos and batteries driving joule
heaters
>extracting ZPE, every source of energy tapping ZPE, because all of these
are
>proven equal and interchangeable. Pretty soon your hypothesis is that every
>form of energy is borrowed from ZPE, and the stuff becomes a ubiquitous
place
>to park or borrow energy, and being ubiquitous it becomes, in a sense,
>undetectable, so why do you need it in the first place?
>
>I mentioned that if all forms of energy are ZPE, presumable the energy flow
>would be inconsistent, because different methods of tapping ZPE would
produce
>different results, so one heat engine would do a different amount of work
than
>another. Fred responds:
>
>     Going by the CF (data scatter) record so far, that is exactly the
point.
>     :-)
>
>I don't get it. This means CF is tapping *some* energy source
unpredictably,
>but why should it be ZPE as opposed to nuclear or chemical energy?
Different
>fission reactors use up more or less fuel. Different auto engines leave
more
>or less unburned hydrocarbons in the exhaust. The CF scatter data proves
that
>a great deal of potential energy is left in the fuel; it does not
demonstrate
>anything about the nature of the fuel. The amount of energy per unit mass
of
>fuel and the absence of chemical transformations prove it cannot be
chemical,
>but that's a different story.
>
>- Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 14:19:49 1998
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From: "R. Wormus" <protech frii.com>
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Subject: Re: Intrinsic Over-Unity Error?
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Hello,
For another hypothesis on CF data scatter see:

        http://www.energyscience.co.uk/essays/ese14.htm/

Local E -field strength??
Ron

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 15:01:46 1998
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Subject: Re: Intrinsic Over-Unity Error?
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Is this the one you mean,Ron?

http://www.energyscience.co.uk/le/le14.htm


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 15:11:01 1998
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Hello Frederick,
No, it was essay #14, "Fusion by Thunder" I found it under the Updates section
of Harold Aspdens home  page.  The idea is that local field conditions play a
part in CF much like ball lightining.  I think that I had the URL correct.

Ron

On 24-Aug-98, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
> Is this the one you mean,Ron?
> 
> http://www.energyscience.co.uk/le/le14.htm
> 
Regards

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 15:22:12 1998
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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 98 18:10:34 -0000
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>One factor that I'm certain about is that  NONE of the IE staff or
>associates was involved in spreading sleazy stories.
>So I think that John Allan has stirred up as much trouble as he can
>fabricate for now.  On the other hand, I don't underestimate his
>creativity.
>Jeane Manning

Thank you very much Jeane, and sorry that this John Allan has caused us 
all to waste valuable time and mental energy. 

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 15:54:17 1998
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In IE20, there is an article on a novel theory of cold fusion proposed
by H.C. Josephs.  He proposes the very rare production of a Rh-105 atom,
which then captures two deuterons and ejects an alpha, continuing this
process until the Rh-105 decays, with half-life of 35 hours.

Superficially, this theory seems to correlate with some of the data on
the difficulties of reproducing the effect, but I am not qualified to
comment on the physics of his proposal.

Has anyone read this article carefully?  Are there any gross errors? Is
it just another wild speculation, or is there some reason to think he
might be on the right track?

-- Bob Horst

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 16:50:52 1998
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Hello All:

Does anyone here know where I can get something that will measure the
transit time of a signal from transmitter to reciever, preferably being
acurate down to the nanoseconds? I will need to measure speeds of around
300,000km/sec for a radio wave signal.

Thanks,
Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 17:27:43 1998
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	Dear Back,

	I have tried to E mail you off line... it bounces.

			J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 17:33:24 1998
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 01:26:37 +0100
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Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender

This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.

A message that you sent could not be delivered to all of its recipients. The
following address(es) failed:

  energy backspace.org:
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	Dear Back,

	I have tried to E mail you off line... it bounces.

			J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 17:35:26 1998
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y


	Dear Kyle and Vo...

	Send signal 100 feet up.... and 100 feet back.... use flat plate 
reflector to retund the back path....  this will reverse the 'handedness' 
of the circular polarization, just as a mirror does the L-R reverse of light.

	OR:

	use two flat plates.... so 'handedness' is retained.

	Knowing the distance, you then can use o-scope to determine velocity
....you put the send on one channel, and the return on the other.

			J.
 

On Mon, 24 Aug 1998, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

> Hello All:
> 
> Does anyone here know where I can get something that will measure the
> transit time of a signal from transmitter to reciever, preferably being
> acurate down to the nanoseconds? I will need to measure speeds of around
> 300,000km/sec for a radio wave signal.
> 
> Thanks,
> Kyle R. Mcallister
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 17:36:23 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Rhodium-catalyzed fusion
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:36:03 GMT
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On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:53:12 -0700, Bob Horst wrote:

>In IE20, there is an article on a novel theory of cold fusion proposed
>by H.C. Josephs.  He proposes the very rare production of a Rh-105 atom,
>which then captures two deuterons and ejects an alpha, continuing this
>process until the Rh-105 decays, with half-life of 35 hours.
>
>Superficially, this theory seems to correlate with some of the data on
>the difficulties of reproducing the effect, but I am not qualified to
>comment on the physics of his proposal.
>
>Has anyone read this article carefully?  Are there any gross errors? Is
>it just another wild speculation, or is there some reason to think he
>might be on the right track?
As I see it one can take either of two positions:
1) Capture of more than 1 D at a time is highly unlikely, in which
case Pd107 would be the product of the first capture, leading to other
reactions than the author proposes, or
2) Simultaneous capture of multiple D's is possible, in which case why
restrict oneself to Rh105?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 18:49:20 1998
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Hurricane Bonnie
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:42:45 -0600
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I bet nobody will sing, "Bring back my Bonnie to me".  

If you know the song, you gotta be over 50.  :-)

Regards,  Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 19:15:54 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Further clarification: DC cell/hydro
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 02:15:46 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35e81dc5.155440079 mail-hub>
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On Mon, 24 Aug 98 08:13:32 -0000, E.F. Mallove wrote:
[snip]
>Still, if Allan delivers a Meyer machine here that passes our testing -- 
>and this should be very easy to confirm based on STP gas volume produced 
>per unit time, plus input energy measured digitally -- all his puffery 
>will have had some purpose. But I suspect he is the cipher  (zero) that I 
>take him to be.
[snip]
Here you make the assumption that the output gas is only a mixture of
hydrogen and oxygen. If it should contain something else (e.g.
hydrinos) as well, then calculations of its value as a fuel may be
underrated.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 19:24:14 1998
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>I bet nobody will sing, "Bring back my Bonnie to me".  
>
>If you know the song, you gotta be over 50.  :-)

My father, who is 82 going on 83,  just sung that song a few weeks ago 
(in operatic style) to the lady who was helping us move my parents of a 
retirement home. Her name was Bonnie George -- no relation to Russ, I 
trust.

Best, Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 19:27:03 1998
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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:31:47 -0400
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
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At 03:53 PM 8/24/98 -0700, Bob Horst wrote:
>Has anyone read this article carefully?  Are there any gross errors? Is
>it just another wild speculation, or is there some reason to think he
>might be on the right track?
 
  I haven't read the article, but Rhodium-105 is a weird beast with a huge
neutron cross-section (24821 barns).  However, where you go from there
doesn't seem to work...  Pd-107 has a long lifetime, but then add another
deuteron, and you get Ag-109, which is stable.  So I can see the first
deuteron, not the second.  On the other hand he could be proposing some
other product than Pd-107.  Perhaps d,p for Rh-106?

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 19:28:20 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Equation units
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 02:27:33 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35e920a8.156179499 mail-hub>
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On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:22:49 +0100, David Callaghan wrote:
[snip]
>David 'spends most of his time converting units or finding out what they
>are' Callaghan
>DCallaghan CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.UK
Hi David,

I agree with your sentiment. On the practical side, I use Mathcad,
which lets me fill in any old mix of units I like, and express the
answer in any units I like as well :).

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 19:34:31 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: happenings at CFT
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 02:32:28 GMT
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On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:06:24 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
[snip]
>We have a good one. It is a standard off-the-shelf model. New, good and easy
>ideas are not wanted in this application. We want old, stodgy methods, so that
>no sensible person can argue that unknown errors in our methods are causing
>artifacts. Extraordinary claims call for the most ordinary, vanilla proof you
>can come up with. No innovations please!
>
>- Jed
[snip]
Hi Jed,

Have you been following the discussions on the GG in the SP groups
lately? It appears that a distorted mechanical feedback might lead to
inaccurate input measurements. At least the shape of the input wave
form should be watched carefully.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 19:37:24 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From: E.F. Mallove <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: VORTEX <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: Hurricane Bonnie

I remember as a kid there was a couple of stanzas added on, same tune:

"Last night as I lay on my pillow, last night as I lay on my bed, last night
I stuck my feet out the window, in the morning my neighbors were dead".

Still gets gleeful giggles out of the grandkids.   :-)

Oh well, Bonnie is a Vortex, isn't she?

Regards,    Frederick

Gene wrote:


>>I bet nobody will sing, "Bring back my Bonnie to me".
>>
>>If you know the song, you gotta be over 50.  :-)
>
>My father, who is 82 going on 83,  just sung that song a few weeks ago
>(in operatic style) to the lady who was helping us move my parents of a
>retirement home. Her name was Bonnie George -- no relation to Russ, I
>trust.
>
>Best, Gene Mallove
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 20:02:13 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Intrinsic Over-Unity Error?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 03:01:54 GMT
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On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:10:49 -0600, R. Wormus wrote:
[snip]
>part in CF much like ball lightining.  I think that I had the URL correct.
>
>Ron
[snip]
Except for the extraneous "/" on the end.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 20:12:27 1998
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Subject: My Stomach Has Had It (http://www.guidezone.skl.com/s5_98.htm)
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My Stomach Has Had It=20
(to the tune of "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean")=20

My breakfast lies over the ocean,=20
My dinner lies over the sea,=20
My stomach is in a commotion,=20
Don't mention my supper to me.=20
Chorus:

    Bring back, bring back,=20
    Oh bring Back my bucket to me, to me,=20
    Bring back, bring back,=20
    Oh bring Back my bucket to me, to me!=20
I really felt rotten this morning,=20
They tell me I really looked pale,=20
My stomach gave adequate warning,=20
To lean far out over the rail.=20

The sound of a stomach in motion,=20
A murmuring noise inside me,=20
I looked down and there on the water,=20
Was breakfast and dinner and tea.=20

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>My Stomach Has Had It</TITLE><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://www.guidezone.skl.com/s5_98.htm><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC =
"-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<META content=3D"Becky (aka Dragon) Vincent" name=3DAuthor>
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DT><B><FONT size=3D+2>My Stomach Has Had It</FONT></B>=20
<DT><I>(to the tune of &quot;My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean&quot;)</I>=20
<DT><BR><FONT size=3D+1>My breakfast lies over the ocean, </FONT>
<DT><FONT size=3D+1>My dinner lies over the sea,</FONT>=20
<DT><FONT size=3D+1>My stomach is in a commotion, </FONT>
<DT><FONT size=3D+1>Don't mention my supper to me.</FONT>=20
<P><B><FONT size=3D+1>Chorus:</FONT></B></P>
<UL>
    <DT><FONT size=3D+1>Bring back, bring back,</FONT>=20
    <DT><FONT size=3D+1>Oh bring Back my bucket to me, to me,</FONT>=20
    <DT><FONT size=3D+1>Bring back, bring back,</FONT>=20
    <DT><FONT size=3D+1>Oh bring Back my bucket to me, to me!</FONT> =
</DT></UL>
<DT><FONT size=3D+1>I really felt rotten this morning, </FONT>
<DT><FONT size=3D+1>They tell me I really looked pale,</FONT>=20
<DT><FONT size=3D+1>My stomach gave adequate warning,</FONT>=20
<DT><FONT size=3D+1>To lean far out over the rail.</FONT>=20
<DT><BR><FONT size=3D+1>The sound of a stomach in motion,</FONT>=20
<DT><FONT size=3D+1>A murmuring noise inside me, </FONT>
<DT><FONT size=3D+1>I looked down and there on the water,</FONT>=20
<DT><FONT size=3D+1>Was breakfast and dinner and tea.</FONT> =
</DT></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 20:38:29 1998
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Mr. Heffner made some statements that I feel may leave some of you with =
the wrong impression about us, therefore, I must set things straight.

Horace Heffner wrote:

* I think it is fair to say there is insufficient information about the =
theory.

That is correct.  The announcement was just that... an announcement.  =
Disclosure will not occur until Oct 28th, unless funding occurs.

I, for one, don't know about the legitimacy, but I take this stuff with =
a
grain of salt and would be unlikely to invest a dime in it or anything
similar for *someone else's* experiments, even with a lot more =
information.

We are not expecting any investments based our work ALONE.  In fact, we =
will not accept any until AFTER third party validation has occurred.  We =
are currently communicating with a possible source for third party =
validation of our work who is very interested in knowing the TRUTH and =
insuring that whoever has the free-energy truth is able advance it and =
without leaving them out in the cold.  Following their full evaluation =
of our work (should we agree on terms of disclosure), if they do not =
believe it is worth further experimentation and prototype construction =
then that's the end of it.  No investments made.  Despite the =
unfortunate reputation of scam artists, there are those who honestly =
have the answer and have no reason to scam anyone.  Under the conditions =
we have laid out publicly for everyone to see, we stand to gain nothing =
UNLESS we are legitimate.  Think about it.  No investment accepted =
unless one or more QUALIFIED individuals thoroughly evaluates our work =
and concludes the validity of our claims and stands behind it.  It's as =
simple as that.

I too have (what I consider to be) some sound quantitative mathematical
theories, some backed up by computer computations, that indicate the
possibility of an extremely robust and practical energy source (not =
related
to fluid dynamics).  The math was checked using Mathcad and/or =
Mathematica,
and checked by others, so I think the theory is a correct application of
presently accepted physical principles.  The simulations indicate a very
practical expected outcome.  I continue to have doubts and to work on =
more
thorough verification and extension of the theory and enchancement of
programs into practical design tools.

In my work, I too was where Mr. Heffner is now, once upon a time.  =
However, more than fifteen years has passed since then and we have been =
able to advance my work to a stage where there is no longer ANY =
possibility of error.  All we need is 3RD PARTY VALIDATION.  There have =
been many events that have occurred in science history that I became =
aware of over the last fifteen years that CONFIRM my work even further.  =
In fact, NO empirical or computational evidence has surfaced that even =
remotely contradicts my claims.  I am a perfectionist, and because of =
this, I have searched diligently for ANY evidence that my discovery =
cannot measure up to.  The ONLY things that are contrary to my work are =
certain MISinterpretations of true physical principles made by certain =
"deified" members of the scientific community.  In the infrequent =
instances where our science "gods" make erroneous claims and have NO =
empirical evidence to support them, the scientific community cowers, =
believing every statement they have made, true OR false.  This how so =
many scientific truths are kept hidden for so many decades until someone =
finally reveals the truth and exposes the lie.  History is filled with =
them.

In addition, I have produced various (unrelated) experiments indicating
COPs of up to 1.15.  These are not a dime a dozen, but it is still =
pretty
easy and cheap to fool yourself.  It is even easier to fool others.

I make it a personal policy of mine not to engage in experiments that =
are not based on a solid theoretical foundation.  I apply this policy to =
everything from decorating my son's birthday cake to look like half a =
soccer ball (having never decorated a cake before in my life) to =
constructing a vortex-driven air compressor.  Incidentally, the cake =
looked so much like a soccer ball that some that it WAS half a soccer =
ball, at first glance.  As a result of having applied this policy to =
advancing my work, my discovery and concepts were preceded by (I would =
estimate) 90% analysis and concept development and 10% concept =
application through experimentation.  The truth of at least one very =
practical way to tap into free energy is here today and we have it.

You don't see me out advertising to probably rip off private inestors to
pursue my follies, be they theory or experiment.  In fact, I don't even
consider my work ready for vortex scrutiny, much less for building a
prospectus.

Good choice, Mr. Heffner.  You shouldn't.  No one should.  We certainly =
wouldn't.

None of us should kid ourselves.  This work is difficult and the
probability of payoff is slim.  I think the odds of success in free =
energy
enterprises are as slim as winning a major lottery.  When it comes time =
to
exploit great ideas mother nature seems to always take the prize right =
from
our hands.  Still, I think it is a worthy and valuable pursuit when our =
own
money is spent on the task. With the proper evaluations in place,
government grants seem a reasonable and ethical financing approach as =
well.

I certainly agree with you in that free energy research is difficult, =
but so was the invention and development of the PC.  I'm just glad for =
the optimists and the pioneers of history.  Who else could have helped =
bring mankind to experience the quality of life that modern technology =
affords us today.

I think some of my work is nearing the point of being ready to pursue a
government research grant, but I would not consider advertising for =
money
from private individuals for any development without a working proof of
principle, a physical experiment.  I don't consider a COP in the
neighborhood of 1.15 a "working experiment" without extreme scientific
scrutiny and replication.  In experiments where I have seen overuinty in
the past it only meant that I had not yet worked hard enough to =
rld that will believe and say negative things about many people.  While =
probably many of their beliefs are well-founded, many more are not.  =
Rather they are based on their past experiences in which they have been =
"burned"...more than once, or they have formed stereo-types in their =
minds due to witnessing the behavior of the "majority".  This, =
unfortunately, leads to a pessimistic attitude where the belief that =
everything that "sounds too good to be true probably is" dominates their =
lives.  Keep in mind that a truth is a truth not because is not "too" =
good, but because it's a "truth".  Was the invention of the light bulb =
"too good to be true", or the automobile or the air conditioner, etc., =
etc., etc.  History's truth's have managed to make themselves known, =
albeit, much too slowly from our perspectives.  Eventually the reality =
and TRUTH of free energy will make itself known.  Why not now?

Best Wishes,
ZPE
http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe


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AAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADiFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAD0AAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAAwANNP03AACU
XQ==

------ =_NextPart_000_01BDCFB0.365E8600--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 21:51:20 1998
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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:48:16 +0000
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From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: if VORTEX-L gets national attention...
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I'm sure Mr. Mallove wouldn't mind an Infinite Energy magazine subscription
mention in your Wired article for readers interested in following up on CF.
Gene might then refer CF researchers, who are at least serious enough to
subscribe in IE, to vortex-l?



At 04:26 PM 8/21/98 -0700, you wrote:

>On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Charles Platt wrote:
>> I have written a long article for Wired magazine, which has a 
>> circulation of around 700,000 in the United States. The 
>> article discusses cold fusion, which I believe was unjustly 
>> discredited and has been ignored during the past nine years 
>> because of a truly remarkable "conspiracy of denial" in the 
>> scientific community. 
>
><asks permission to mention Vortex-L and include the addr.>
Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 22:19:30 1998
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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:14:33 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: ]Off Line[ Re: Hurricane Bonnie
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Hi ~bonnies~  (cheerleader says): BONNIE, A VORTEX ~SHE IS~!
That's better, Now we are SINGING!  MUCH nicer attitude for vortexians!
Grown in Florida, My first BIG Hurricane (Hurricane "Parties" were popular
back then,) (candles, fill the tub with water etc)).. But my favorite was
?? early
60's late 50' Hurricane "DEBBIE" or "DEBRA" my little sisters NAME, she
blew our one and only pine tree down to 20 degrees as she passed over
Jacksonville FL (laying gently atop our garage roof) during the passing of 
(the eye) and we had about a 1/2 hour to view the damage, THEN when the
REVERSE winds hit us -- It stood the pine BACK-UP to with-in 5-10 degrees
of where it fell from!  (_NO_LIE *TRUE STORY*:) Dad cut it down anyway :(
 I'm only passing this on, as my mothers name is BONNIE and wondered if
(given the random choice of names: for those mother of all vortices)(male
names just recently being added in the mix) If anyone else has it's family
pegged as potential "incoming" destruction:)??  I Do remember riding my
Schwinn bike up and down the street, around the felled trees and branches
yelling "My sister did it, My sister did it!" <grin>
I suppose I was 6-7 at the time... still under 50<g> I want to thank
Frederick Sparber for a verse, there must have been many to pass those
hours of isolation. OOOOOOOhhhhhh Bring Back, Brrrrrringggg Back, Oh Bring
back my Bonnie to MeeeeeEEEEEeeee! :)   Thanks for the song and the lapse
into memories. :)  Those Wet Winds slapping in your face are like a
western lightning storm for humbling ;)
  ----------------------------------------------------
On Mon, 24 Aug 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
I remember as a kid there was a couple of stanzas added on, same tune:
"Last night as I lay on my pillow, last night as I lay on my bed, last night
I stuck my feet out the window, in the morning my neighbors were dead".
Still gets gleeful giggles out of the grandkids.   :-)
Oh well, Bonnie is a Vortex, isn't she?
Regards,    Frederick
-----------------------------------------
Gene wrote:
>>I bet nobody will sing, "Bring back my Bonnie to me".
>>

Love a good bet <grin> and a good song too!
Thanks Gene :) 
steve (here's hoping BONNIE is big & memorable, but not too destructive)
ekwall

"YES MAM!!, Mother Nature!"

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 22:45:40 1998
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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 01:45:14 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Calling Allan's bluff
Resent-Message-ID: <"qeKU92.0.gR7.7zaur" mx1>
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Let's see, a long time ago, I saw an OU newsletter (can't think of the name
right now) that had an article about hooking up the generator output of a
car to a series of electodes submerged in a tank of water. The electrolysis
gasses fueled the engine and generator until the water ran out. I remember
this clearly because I couldn't find anything special about the design which
would make up for the expected combustion and generator losses. I was
astounded at the audacity of the writer to make such a claim and overlook
mentioning any details about the OU part.

Then after putting in the time to begin having a respect for John W. Keely's
work, it occured to me that a man like Keely probably could come up with a
signal profile to make OU water electrolysis quite possible.

An understanding of Yull Brown's monatomic hydrogen - oxygen fuel mixture
lowers my incredulity level further.

I just recently read a web page stating that Walter Russell had designed a
working OU hydrogen generator. Barring Joseph H. Cater's opinion of Russell
in "The Awesome Life Force", my understanding is that Russell did have the
technical background to be able to create such a design.

Considering the above, I wouldn't bet any money against Allan's chances of
having something.

I have yet to see expressions of hostility inspire anyone to share anything
with anybody, I might add. I hope I never see such a day for that matter!

peace;
Dennis C. Lee


At 01:10 PM 8/21/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>At 12:43 PM 8/21/98 -0400, Jed Frothwell wrote:
>
>>Mitchell Swartz writes:
>>
>>     Garbage like this does not belong here.
>>
>>Fraud does not belong here. John Allan made a transparent attempt to swindle
>>me and the other readers of this forum. He wrote: "if Mr Rothwell wish to
>>commission a retrofit on board electrolysis hydrogen conversion kit . . . I
>>will be happy to fulfil his wishes." He is offering to sell me a machine
>which
>>he knows damn well does not exist. That is against the rules of this forum,
>>and it is a violation of criminal statutes in the U.K. and the U.S. It is a
>>very serious matter.
>
>    What is so difficult about an on-board electrolysis system, Mr. Rothwell?
>
>    Or is Mr. Rothwell now going to imply Mr. Allan claimed it was "cold
>fusion" when
>he did not, like Jed did with Mr. Meyer?
>
>
>   Mr. Rothwell's libel of Mr. Allan because he asked him questions about
>an electrolysis
>technology is a potentially serious matter.   
>
>    Furthermore and finally, electrolysis is not fraud.   
>
> ================================================================
>
>
>>There are only two possibilities: Allan has what he claims and he will do
>what
>>he promised, or he is a thief.
>
>
>   Take your BS, Mr. Rothwell, to spf.  You are making this up.
>
>
> ================================================================
>
>
>
>>As for you, Swartz, I asked you how electrolysis can move the car, since it
>>only coverts and never generates energy. You evaded the issue and posted a
>>bunch of preposterous double-talk in response. It is a simple question, and
>>you should answer it or shut up.
>
>
>     Take your BS, Mr. Rothwell, to spf.  You are making this up, too.
>
>     I asked you a question too, and as usual
>you attempt to turn it all around to suit your purposes.
>
>
> ================================================================
>
>
>> Your claims are absurd, like saying that an
>>electrical inverter moves the car. ELECTROLYSIS IS NOT A SOURCE OF ENERGY. 
>
>   I NEVER said it was.  But then with Jed it hardly matters what
>is said.   
>
>   Mr. Rothwell should take his absurd ad hominem filled antiscientific
>uneducated back-stabbing of o/u and cf investigators ranging from
>Dr. Fleischmann to Russ George, and his back-stabbing of dead individuals
>such as Mr. Meyer, and his back-stabbing of those who ask questions like
>Mr. Allan elsewhere.   Every time Mr. Frothwell continues this thread it
>seems 
>he merely demonstrates his utter disregard for the truth and his flagrant
>contempt for the agreement regarding no ad hominems on vortex.
>
>   Res ipse loquitur
>
>
>
>
Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 24 23:55:55 1998
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED - reply to Horace Heffner's comments
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At 10:39 PM 8/24/98, ZPE wrote:

[snip]
>
>Best Wishes,
>ZPE
>http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe
>
>
>Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
>
>Attachment converted: Hard Disk:VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED - reply
>(????/----) (0000EAEB)


I have no idea what's in the above attachment, as I can not read it.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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On Mon, 24 Aug 1998, Horace Heffner wrote:

At 10:39 PM 8/24/98, ZPE wrote:

[snip]
>
>Best Wishes,
>ZPE
>http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe
>
>
>Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
>
>Attachment converted: Hard Disk:VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED - reply
>(????/----) (0000EAEB)


I have no idea what's in the above attachment, as I can not read it.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


---------------------------
Hi Horace, 
  Doesn't really mean anything, except ZPE is using MicroSoft WIN95 Thats
a header for fonts/fancy etc..

-=se=-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 01:04:09 1998
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED - reply to Horace Heffner's comments
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At 10:39 PM 8/24/98, ZPE wrote:
[snip]
>We are not expecting any investments based our work ALONE.  In fact, we
>will not accept any until AFTER third party validation has occurred.  We
>are currently communicating with a possible source for third party
>validation of our work who is very interested in knowing the TRUTH and
>insuring that whoever has the free-energy truth is able advance it and
>without leaving them out in the cold.  Following their full evaluation of
>our work (should we agree on terms of disclosure), if they do not believe
>it is worth further experimentation and prototype construction then that's
>the end of it.  No investments made.  Despite the unfortunate reputation of
>scam artists, there are those who honestly have the answer and have no
>reason to scam anyone.  Under the conditions we have laid out publicly for
>everyone to see, we stand to gain nothing UNLESS we are legitimate.  Think
>about it.  No investment accepted unless one or more QUALIFIED individuals
>thoroughly evaluates our work and concludes the validity of our claims and
>stands behind it.  It's as simple as that.


This seems circular.  You say you need money to test your theory.  You
appear to imply you will not accept money until the theory is tested and
found valid.  What are you proposing happens if the theory is tested and
found to be not commercially viable?


[snip]
>There have been many events
>that have occurred in science history that I became aware of over the last
>fifteen years that CONFIRM my work even further.  In fact, NO empirical or
>computational evidence has surfaced that even remotely contradicts my
>claims.  I am a perfectionist, and because of this, I have searched
>diligently for ANY evidence that my discovery cannot measure up to.  The
>ONLY things that are contrary to my work are certain MISinterpretations of
>true physical principles made by certain "deified" members of the
>scientific community.  In the infrequent instances where our science "gods"
>make erroneous claims and have NO empirical evidence to support them, the
>scientific community cowers, believing every statement they have made, true
>OR false.  This how so many scientific truths are kept hidden for so many
>decades until someone finally reveals the truth and exposes the lie.
>History is filled with them.


It appears totally preposterous to me that you and your partners have not
in 15 years been able to find the resources to physically test your theory,
i.e. to do a definitive experiment, or to build a practically useful
device.  And now you want the money right away ... in 30 days?

I readily admit to being on the lunatic fringe proposing that various
combinations of existing physical laws indicate violations of the first or
second laws of thermodynamics.  I am examining inconsistencies in present
law and thus paradoxes.  It makes me a crackpot or crank to profess the
notion that there is the possibility of free energy indicated.  However, if
I go advertise for private investor funds for my crackpot ideas before
completing a diligent positive test, then that puts me in a whole new
catogory of some kind.

It appears possible that what you are actually seeking is research partners
who will test your theory, collaborators.  That is reasonable and happens
frequently on vortex.  Fred Sparber puts out about an idea a day, or at
least an idea a week hoping for some validation sooner or later, for
example.  There are also calls for replication, which are generally where
the real excitement lies on vortex.  Calls for private cash based solely on
an untested theory regarding free energy, however, are not reasonable,
IMHO.  Accepted principles of physics are being violated, thus a high
degree of proof needs to be forthcoming to justify the solicitation of
cash.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 02:46:05 1998
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From: "David Callaghan" <DCallaghan CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk>
To: <stk sunherald.infi.net>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Signal transit timers
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:22:53 +0100
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Kyle

I have a home made 2GHz ECL counter that I use.  It was very expensive to
make however.  I could supply you with a complete counter on a PCB, complete
with LED display, that will measure frequency from 0 to 10Mhz with an
accuracy of 0.1Hz, and periodic timings with an accuracy of 100nS, for about
USD 100.00.

Best regards
David Callaghan
DCallaghan CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk


-----Original Message-----
From: Kyle R. Mcallister <stk sunherald.infi.net>


>Hello All:
>
>Does anyone here know where I can get something that will measure the
>transit time of a signal from transmitter to reciever, preferably being
>acurate down to the nanoseconds? I will need to measure speeds of around
>300,000km/sec for a radio wave signal.
>
>Thanks,
>Kyle R. Mcallister


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 02:50:02 1998
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From: "Rob King" <kingrs hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Further clarification: DC cell/hydrogen powered car 
    projects
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Mr John Allen,

I understand it that you have the Meyer Water Fuel Cell up and running.
I cannot find your web site, what is it?
What is your telephone number, as I would like to speak to you on the 
phone seeing as you live just down the road.
  
Like a lot of people I have tried for ages to get Meyer's fuel cell to 
work but with no success. Using fly-back transformers and staircase 
occillators to get the ramped voltage required.

Rob King
(Garden Shed tinkerer)


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 03:48:26 1998
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Gas Vortex- Water Interface, ZPE Pump?
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 04:42:08 -0600
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To: Vortex

The shear between a gas cyclone and water could create enough agitation in
the water to cause
local warming if the QED charge collision tenet that dE = h/dt can extract
energy (ZPE) from the vacuum, holds.

With some 3.35E22 water molecules/cm^3 even if dE is very small for
collisions of the highly polar water molecules, ie., the negative charge on
the oxygen atom and positive charge of the hydrogens(pseudo hydrogen
bonding) it could add up to substantial ZPE extraction ie.,"pumping".

Certainly could explain why Hurricanes "peter out" when they get over land.

I've got a rain barrel and a leaf blower, if someone wants to borrow them
for some calorimetry experiments.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 04:05:02 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gas Vortex- Water Interface, ZPE Pump?
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S'funny, I though hurricanes were driven by latent heat of water, none of 
this fancy zpe stuff. Ask the climatologist for an expert opinion.

We Brits have a disparging term 'bollocks' or 'bollox' - the harder sound 
indicating the degree of contempt for the thing, notion. etc.

Serendipity, yes, but wild flights of fancy, er, no. But I guess some 
people think that about swishing electrodes around in a solution 
s'nosolution - geddit?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 04:21:51 1998
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Subject: Re: Gas Vortex- Water Interface, ZPE Pump?
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-----Original Message-----
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 5:04 AM
Subject: Re: Gas Vortex- Water Interface, ZPE Pump?

I agree Remi, but never throw the baby out with the bathwater!  :-)

Then again You might be all wet, too.  :-)
FJS

Gregarious Remi wrote:


>S'funny, I though hurricanes were driven by latent heat of water, none of 
>this fancy zpe stuff. Ask the climatologist for an expert opinion.
>
>We Brits have a disparging term 'bollocks' or 'bollox' - the harder sound 
>indicating the degree of contempt for the thing, notion. etc.
>
>Serendipity, yes, but wild flights of fancy, er, no. But I guess some 
>people think that about swishing electrodes around in a solution 
>s'nosolution - geddit?
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 04:22:21 1998
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Message-ID: <35E29D21.2E5007A9 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:16:49 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
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Hi All,

I think one can not protect them self against FE enemies by trying to keep their identities secret  while looking third party validations and investor. 

A common expertise is introduce itself as a client and catch the (illegal) vendor (on cops cases). 

The sure method to learn whether the claims are real or fake and catch the inventor is mimicking standard business practice. I think it is not possible to sell anything legal and find investor in a covered relation. This is contradictional. How one can ac
cept an investment without trusting to investor and vice versa?

Third party validation by independent labs is also *very* insecure. If you hide your identity, this give impression that you are illegal, otherwise you are exposed. We can not sure any lab private or not, have a contract with a "regulation" to report unus
ual phenomena, at least for security reason.

Globally, regulations define how one do business. If you have a product which is not already defined by the regulation, one need absolutely to get the permission from regulation to produce and sell it.

It is not realistic to find serious investment without knowing or ensuring the product is permitted by law.


I think the only way to protect an FE invention is to open as possible to public hide nothing and nothing would be covered by "enemies". Only large, organized communities could be invulnerable to suppression effort.

I think it is *certainly impossible* to earn money with an invention based on FE or by any invention having strategic importance.


Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 04:35:44 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: Re: Gas Vortex- Water Interface, ZPE Pump?
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How did Richard Dawkins (Dick Dork) put it?

'Having an open mind doesn't mean you let your brains fall out.'

Nuf said?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 04:41:33 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 5:36 AM
Subject: Re: Gas Vortex- Water Interface, ZPE Pump?

Open minded at birth, Remi wrote:


>How did Richard Dawkins (Dick Dork) put it?
>
>'Having an open mind doesn't mean you let your brains fall out.'
>
>Nuf said?
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 05:14:51 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: Re: Gas Vortex- Water Interface, ZPE Pump?
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On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

> I agree Remi, but never throw the baby out with the bathwater!  :-)
> 
> Then again You might be all wet, too.  :-)
> FJS
> 
> Gregarious Remi wrote:
> 

Gregarious (gregwarious) means being found in groups or being sociable. 
Seeing all of the sh.t that passes for humanity in a big city, scams,
amorality, group ethic and more I give most people a wide berth. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 05:32:10 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 6:13 AM
Subject: Re: Gas Vortex- Water Interface, ZPE Pump?

Remi wrote:


>On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>
>> I agree Remi, but never throw the baby out with the bathwater!  :-)
>>
>> Then again You might be all wet, too.  :-)
>> FJS
>>
>> Gregarious Remi wrote:
>>
>
>Gregarious (gregwarious) means being found in groups or being sociable.
>Seeing all of the sh.t that passes for humanity in a big city, scams,
>amorality, group ethic and more I give most people a wide berth.

Gee Remi, if we all felt that way, it would be a wonderful World, wouldn't
it?

Seems that when I'm in a bad mood, everyone else is. Get it?

Take your meds, and get to work. The rest of us will survive somehow.

Regards,    Frederick
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 05:35:33 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: Re: Gas Vortex- Water Interface, ZPE Pump?
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On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

> Seems that when I'm in a bad mood, everyone else is. Get it?
> 
> Take your meds, and get to work. The rest of us will survive somehow.
           ~~~~~~~

Ah, you're trying to be cheeky now. You have my friend the nous of a 
gnat and the wit of raw effluent.
(No returns)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 06:20:52 1998
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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:20:39 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Thoriated W rods are different!
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We ran a thoriated W rod in our incandescent W experiment yesterday and it
behaves quite differently.  

Something is making the thoriated rod get much hotter for a given input
power.  The result is a noticeably brighter, very "incandescent" glow from
the cell.  Previously, with pure W, the light was a mixture of the
black-body radiation from a red-orange hot W and the bluer light of arc
discharges dancing all over the surface.  Now, with thoriated W, the light
is dominated by the bright black-body radiation of an extremely hot metal.

The rod eroded away prematurely on the first try and the input power was
hopelessly unstable on the second try yesterday.  Despite these
difficulties, we didn't see any obvious evidence that the Pout trace trying
to exceed the Pin trace.  

As a result we've added energy integration to the data acq. program.  Today
we're just going to let the thing burn out as it will but leave the
calorimetry going until things cool back down...then we'll compare energy
in to energy out, more-or-less ignoring the power traces.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 07:18:51 1998
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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:12:33 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Griggs test errors
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To: Vortex

Robin van Spaandonk writes:

     Have you been following the discussions on the GG in the SP groups
     lately? It appears that a distorted mechanical feedback might lead to
     inaccurate input measurements. At least the shape of the input wave form
     should be watched carefully.

I have not been following these discussions, but I think this hypothesis is
incorrect. The input power measurements are confirmed independently by the
dynamometer, which registers exactly as much mechanical power from the motor
as the manufacturer specifies. Input power is measured with the computer card,
the Dranetz, and power company meter, and they all agree. They are based on
different physical principles. The suggestion might be made that the power
meters are fooled by mechanic feedback and the dynamometer is fooled by
something else unrelated, and they all happen to come up the expected answer
by coincidence. I think this is unrealistic. I also think there is very little
likelihood that a standard electric motor used in an ordinary application can
fool the power company meters by 15 to 30%. If they can, the power company has
a serious problem on its hands.

Without revealing the name, Scott Little described one of the mistakes Griggs
made early on, when he turned on the Dranetz at the beginning of the run.
(Scott is a gentleman for not revealing the name, but Griggs is thick skinned
and I believe in reporting all details. I described even more embarrassing
mistakes that Griggs made with thermocouples in my early reports.) That's a
serious error all right, and if the experiments had ended there, with one type
of meter incorrectly used in one type of test, results would be dubious. But
that is not the situation. Griggs, who knows his own limits, hired top notch
consultants who designed and installed a superb set of test instruments. The
instruments are redundant; all parameters are measured with two or more
instruments based on different physical principles. Griggs did different kinds
of tests, of different duration. For example, Little said that the 40 second
delay initializing the Dranetz comes to 15% of the total time. That's for the
boiling water test, but the hot water flow tests last for hours. Back when
Griggs made that mistake, Little should have noted that in some cases it would
introduce a 15% error, but in the longer tests, which also showed excess heat,
the error would have been a fraction of one percent. That puts the story in a
different light. It should also be noted that this 15% error would reduce the
C.O.P. from 115% to 100%, but 100% is still way over unity because the motor
cannot be 100% efficient. Perhaps Little was describing tests in which the
C.O.P. went from 100% to 85%, but the ones I saw were more like 115% before
adjusting for this error. Finally, it should be noted that in many of the
early tests I observed with the Dranetz, Griggs did *not* make this error. He
simply reset the meter to zero and tore off the paper. Furthermore he and his
customers double checked the Dranetz reading against power company meters, and
in some of the documented customer tests he gave me, they relied upon the
power company and water company meters alone, for multi-hour flow tests. These
meters are crude but reliable.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 07:56:37 1998
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Message-Id: <199808251450.KAA16573 mercury.mv.net>
From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: "Not for oxygen use" gauges
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:53:43 -0400
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Vortexians:

Can someone please tell me why a diaphragm gauge would not be for oxygen
use and if that is the case, can it not be used with ordinary air, or a
combustible gas with an oxygen content?

Ed Wall
CF Technology

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Deuces wild!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 08:36:05 1998
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ZPE wrote:
> All we need is 3RD PARTY VALIDATION.  

Of what process or device?  You forgot to waste some of your own money first. 
8^)


-- 

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    John E. Steck
      Senior Mechanical Engineer
      Rapid Tooling Applications
      Motorola CE, PCS, Libertyville, IL
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 08:48:24 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: devil's advocate
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Meyer may have been unscientific and lacking in business ethics, the 
juries out on that, but why should anyone believe all this fanciful cf 
and hot poker quenching more than a Meyer cell?

You have experts and lab results, they do too. Like I'm really confused.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 08:48:31 1998
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
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Subject: Re: "Not for oxygen use" gauges
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Dear Ed,


>Vortexians:
>
>Can someone please tell me why a diaphragm gauge would not be for oxygen
>use and if that is the case, can it not be used with ordinary air, or a
>combustible gas with an oxygen content?


Depends on what the diaphragm is made of. If it is not metal, then the
diaphragm may deteriorate with pure oxygen. Might also be concern about any
leaks and oxidizable lubricants. Just speculations.

I sent Gene a note about a forthcoming book on an impending global shortage
of "mined" -- aquifer -- water, as well as from rivers flowing between
hostile countries. Looks like a market for energy-efficient desalination.
The Saudis have large reverse-osmosis desalination plants, and lots of oil
to power them. The long range global picture is quite different.

Regards, Mike

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 09:04:06 1998
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Vortex-L" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re; Thoriated Tungsten is Different!
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:54:42 -0600
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That figures Scott.

My data for electron emission of Thoriated vs
pure W shows 5 orders of magnitude greater electron emission of thoriated at
1750 K, and 3 orders greater at 2000 K and converging at about 2300 K
depending on the thorium coverage.



Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 09:05:59 1998
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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Calling Allan's bluff
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To: Vortex

Dennis C. Lee writes:

     . . . An understanding of Yull Brown's monatomic hydrogen - oxygen fuel
     mixture lowers my incredulity level further. . . . I just recently read
     a web page stating that Walter Russell had designed a working OU
     hydrogen generator. . . . 

     Considering the above, I wouldn't bet any money against Allan's chances
     of having something.

It should be understood that I am not betting. This is not a wager, although I
used a gambling term "calling a bluff." If the machine exists, I want it. I am
quite willing to pay $10,000 for it. For that matter, I would be happy to pay
Brown, Russell or Dennis Lee $10,000 for an o-u generator. (I believe Brown is
deceased -- I would pay his estate.) I do not think Allan can produce a
machine, but if he does I will be astonished and pleased, and happy to part
with the money. If this is a bet, it is a peculiar one because I want to lose.


     I have yet to see expressions of hostility inspire anyone to share
     anything with anybody, I might add.

Nobody is asking Allan to share anything. He delivers a machine and I pay for
it. The machine will become my property. I will not share it or return it. I
was openly hostile when Allan said he was "happy" to offer me the machine, so
the mark's attitude is not an issue with him. Obviously, he has no machine. He
never had any intention of supplying one. Now he is scrambling to find an
excuse to bug out, with this nonsense about sex scandals and professional
bodies governing collaborations. I expect he was hoping to fleece me for a
down payment. That was Meyer's game. I expect that Alan and Swartz inherited
this con game from Meyer. They took over the business when he died, and they
are trying to squeeze it for what it is worth. Many con artists run over-unity
energy scams. I must admit I have fallen for two: Potapov and Watson. Watson
did not cost me much, but he managed to fleece a number of people here, which
adds up. He caused Chris Tinsley and others to waste time building the toy.
Many other o-u scam artists have shown up at my door. They give legitimate CF
science a bad name. I despise all criminals, but these are particularly
irksome because they interfere with serious research.

Civility, open mindedness, and a forgiving attitude towards mistakes are
essential in science. Many people have mistakenly reported excess heat in CF
experiments, because of wishful thinking and exuberance. That must be
forgiven. People must have hope, and hope sometimes misleads. So does
pessimism. I do not think the Ragland cell works. I suspect Ragland botched
his calorimetry, but I am sure that Ragland is sincere. He never intended to
waste our time, or Scott Little's time. He tried to help. We have not been
able to make the Perkins-Pope machine work, but Pope has been leaning over
backwards to help. He is anxious to assist, and he will do more as soon as we
can make time to see him. He may be making a mistake, or we may be, but
clearly he is not trying to rip off anyone. Open mindedness *must not be
extended* to criminals and con men. When you deal with them, this strength
becomes a weakness. The rules of civilized scientific discourse do not apply.
Sometimes it is difficult to tell what sort of person you are dealing with. A
talented con man makes himself look like a real scientist or inventor. His
words may fool you, but you can always tell by his actions -- although it may
be too late. When he grabs for the money first, or he starts dodging and
running; when he refuses to cooperate, and he will not give technical details
or a firm delivery date, you are dealing with a bloodsucker. When you ask
legitimate questions about the alleged product, or you demand more information
after he offers to sell you one, and he responds by threatening to sue you or
with some other form of intimidation, that's a dead giveaway. Perhaps we
should put together a warning list for our readers, to avoid another Watson
affair.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 09:07:37 1998
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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Thoriated W rods are different!
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To: Vortex

Scott Little reports good news:

     We ran a thoriated W rod in our incandescent W experiment yesterday and
     it behaves quite differently. . . . Something is making the thoriated
     rod get much hotter for a given input power.

Materials are the key! Whether it is real or an artifact, you must have the
right materials to get to the bottom of it.


     The rod eroded away prematurely on the first try and the input power was
     hopelessly unstable on the second try yesterday.

Now, the question is: With simpler calorimetry like Ohmori and Wall's,
would these instabilities cause a large underestimation of input power? I
suppose that depends upon the input power meters. The output heat
measurements are probably adequate, although crude.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 09:30:11 1998
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Subject: Re: Calling Allan's bluff
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Cut the crap. All this politics stuff, Mr John Allen, you speak too much 
politiko and your knowledge of batteries, Watts, Joules, Mileage (sorry 
Kilometrage) does you no credit. When you lose a point, don't OJ/Cockeran 
it - to coin an expression.

**********************************Wish list*****************************
I want to know how's it done. Current, voltage, geometry of electrodes, 
number of electrodes, temperature and what the hell are these resonant 
frequencies?
************************************************************************

CF, if it real, is going on for ten years because I understand it's very 
difficult. I'm not about to insult people like Swartz, who is exceedingly 
talented and renown when they say they can do it.

Come on list, think of the bod in the streets ( - you know there are some 
people who don't actually subscribe to vortex!? ) who feel the same way 
about cf?

People are saying to me that something very strange is underfoot, the way 
people are behaving, diatribes, all kinds of wicked nonsense. Some 
cover-up is occurring. We'll I don't know. See the list starred above and 
if you don't know it, tell us how you might go about getting it.

That simple - stick to the science.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 09:36:54 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Mike Carrell, water
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Mike,

You know, RO is rather good. Lots of investment, yes, very humble 
beginings (1 gnat's piss thimble of water). Hard for new approaches to 
break forth, perhaps.

Solve fe, you solve water too. Especially if you can reuse heat. Think of 
all the waste heat from these ou devices when they become commonplace.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 10:06:32 1998
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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:55:25 -0400
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Calling Allan's bluff - Correction to Rothwell
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At 12:01 PM 8/25/98 -0400, Jed wrote:

>That was Meyer's game. I expect that Alan and Swartz inherited
>this con game from Meyer. They took over the business when he died, and they
>are trying to squeeze it for what it is worth. Many con artists run
over-unity
>energy scams. I must admit I have fallen for two: Potapov and Watson. Watson
>did not cost me much, but he managed to fleece a number of people here, which
>adds up.


    Mr. Rothwell was told his statements were not true. 
Like previously, Mr. Rothwell was informed, and he 
continues his BS.  

    We have elected for years not to share data with Rothwell 
in part because of his conduct such as this, and his inaccuracy.


   Correction to Mr. Rothwell -     For the nth time:
-----------------------------------------------------

    I do not believe Meyer's device is either overunity
OR cold fusion.  If there is information of either, the
email address is above.

    I do not believe that Jed and perhaps some others to 
a lesser degree have stated all facts about this matter 
accurately.  It is a complicated subject, and there 
should be some flexibility, but I suggest the maliciousness
go as it has NOTHING to do with science or engineering.

    I have and have had nothing to do with either Mr. Allan OR Meyer,
but as regards this field do investigate cf and very few of 
the purported o/u devices, and have published some of the results 
in the peer-reviewed literature.

    I have noted that Mr. Allan writes in journals about
cold fusion and overunity devices and has examined scientific
aspects of portions of this field, and like others who
report such, is targeted by Mr. Rothwell.  
IMO rather than attack and encourage others to dismiss 
competitors, Mr. Rothwell and others should work with such individuals,
encourage their scientific exploration, and reports.

   No doubt, Mr. Rothwell may get it wrong again, but
some optimism persists and hence this post. 
  
    More efficient energy devices and systems are important.

New investigators, and better reports including skeptical
serious criticism, of the field should be encouraged. 

    Come on folks.  We are on the same side in the
search for accuracy about, and development of, these
technologies.

      Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 10:10:07 1998
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Vo, 2 points,

Buried in the prose:-

.Meyer claimed to have a more efficient water splitter -> 100% (not over) 

.From this (above) something strange was happening and this pointed the 
way to ou.

That's how I understand this. He wasn't meant to have claimed more.
Right, diving for cover!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 11:25:05 1998
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Subject: Re: Calling Allan's bluff
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 98 14:21:29 -0000
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I expect that Alan and Swartz inherited
>this con game from Meyer. They took over the business when he died, and they
>are trying to squeeze it for what it is worth. 

This remark  by Jed was uncalled for as to Dr. Swartz. I appreciate the 
heat of the moment can lead anyone to accusations, but Mitch Swartz is in 
NO con game! Mr. Allan may be, but not Mitch Swartz!

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 13:10:02 1998
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Subject: Re: Thoriated W rods are different!
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At 08:20 AM 8/25/98 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>We ran a thoriated W rod in our incandescent W experiment yesterday and it
>behaves quite differently.  
>
>Something is making the thoriated rod get much hotter for a given input
>power.  The result is a noticeably brighter, very "incandescent" glow from
>the cell.  Previously, with pure W, the light was a mixture of the
>black-body radiation from a red-orange hot W and the bluer light of arc
>discharges dancing all over the surface.  Now, with thoriated W, the light
>is dominated by the bright black-body radiation of an extremely hot metal.

    Sounds like the thorium is doing its job of ionizing any insulating
sheath of gas before it forms. 

>As a result we've added energy integration to the data acq. program.  Today
>we're just going to let the thing burn out as it will but leave the
>calorimetry going until things cool back down...then we'll compare energy
>in to energy out, more-or-less ignoring the power traces.
 
    Sounds good.  Remember what I said yesterday though--if you don't see
OU, there is something wrong.  (The amount of OU expected will depend on
the amoung of thorium in the apparatus.  But if the reaction changes the
decay rate, you will see more heat than expected.)   Remember that most of
the decay heat will not come from Th232 ---> alpha + Ra228, but from the
daughter reactions:

    90Th232 ---> alpha + Ra228 + 4.03  MeV (half life 1.405 years)
    88Ra228 ---> beta  + Ac228 + 0.046 MeV (half life 5.75 years)
    89Ac228 ---> beta  + Th228 + 2.127 MeV (half life 6.15 hours)
    90Th228 ---> alpha + Ra224 + 5.520 MeV (half life 1.9116 years)
    88Ra224 ---> alpha + Rn220 + 5.789 MeV (half life 3.66 days)
    86Rn220 ---> alpha + Po216 + 6.405 MeV (half life 55.6 seconds)
    84Po216 ---> alpha + Pb212 + 6.906 MeV (half life 0.145 seconds)
    82Pb212 ---> beta  + Bi212 + 0.574 MeV (half life 10.64 hours)
At this point there are two branches Bi212 emits an alpha 64% of the time
and a beta 36 percent of the time:
    83Bi212 ---> beta  + Po212 + 2.254 MeV (half life 60.55 minutes)
    84Po212 ---> alpha + Pb208 + 8.954 MeV (half life 0.299 seconds)
or:
    83Bi212 ---> alpha + Tl208 + 6.207 MeV (half life 60.55 minutes)
    81Tl208 ---> beta  + Pb208 + 5.001 MeV (half life 3.053 minutes)

  I get 90Th232 ---> 6 alpha + 4 beta + 82Pb208 + 42.605 MeV as the overall
reaction.

  Notice that the thorium decay chain goes back through thorium 228, and
that all decays after that are very quick dominated by the 3.66 day radium
decay.  So when you refine thorium, the processing technique can
temporarily supress that channel by letting out the radon--but the sample
recovers in hours.  Refining out the Radium228 has a much longer effect.
All this means check your welding rod with a Geiger counter.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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Robert I. Eachus described nuclear reactions that might occur when the rod
is heated. Two questions:

1. Could it be that Ohmori and Mizuno saw these reactions and mistook them
for neutrons?

2. Is there any danger? Should Scott Little be taking precautions? Alpha
and beta particles (electrons) do not sound dangerous, but what about the
radon?

- Jed

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I speculated that Allan and Swartz inherited the con game from Meyer. Mallove
thinks I have gone too far:

     This remark  by Jed was uncalled for as to Dr. Swartz. I appreciate the
     heat of the moment can lead anyone to accusations, but Mitch Swartz is
     in NO con game! Mr. Allan may be, but not Mitch Swartz!

If Swartz is not actively engaged in a con game, he is instead giving support
and scientific credibility to one, which is nearly as bad. He is also using
this Meyer con to publicly and privately attack me, and to spread confusion
and rancor here, which is despicable. I did not go too far. Indeed, I did not
go far enough. Swartz has been attacking me here and in private and behind my
back with this kind of garbage for years. I will not put up with it another
minute! He claims that the car is not o-u, yet it has no fuel and it moves.
This is nonsense. If he believes it he is crazy. If he does not believe it, he
is making trouble to make me look bad.

Anyone who gives an ounce of support to Meyer is conning himself and the
public, and encouraging more people to invest in a filthy deception. This is
abetting a criminal. What happens if some poor fool decides to invest more
money because he reads this garbage on Vortex? Will Allan and Swartz accept
responsibility? They should! What will happen to Bill Beaty? Will he be sued
by the next victim for publishing this stuff? Whether Allan and Swartz profit
directly or whether they stand aside and derive of some kind of perverse
thrill when their mischief ruins more lives, they will be guilty as far as I
am concerned. How many people must lose their life savings before Meyer is
debunked once and for all? How much more are we going to pay for this folly?
If we do not forcefully speak out and condemn people like Meyer, who will? The
mainstream scientists pay no attention. Ignorant members of the public have
been conned. It has hurt our reputation indirectly. It makes me sick to think
that a CF scientist and physician like Swartz is lending credibility to this
outrage.

We are talking about REAL MONEY here!!! Real lives! Real consequences. Large
sums of money down the tubes forever. Hundreds of thousands of dollars were
wasted in Ireland and God knows how much elsewhere. This is not a damn game.
It is not harmless speculation about physics. Potapov took a chunk of my hide
and money from my friends too, but I can afford it. (If my friends are hurting
they should contact me and I'll return the money.) But Meyer is different.
People sank hundreds of thousands of dollars in the Meyer cesspool.

- Jed

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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: devil's advocate
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[I tried to send this directly to Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9> but the message
bounced back. There is no such address. Remi: what is your e-mail address?

I apologize for posting this here, since it is mostly off topic. I am sorry to
burden the readers here with more discussion of Meyer, but as I said, this is
serious business. Bill Beaty and others might get in trouble from this
mischief stirred up by Allan and Swartz. WE MUST TAKE A STAND. We must make a
clear distinction between honest scientific mistakes or dead end experiments
on one hand, and deliberate deception which cost hundreds of thousands of
dollars on the other. - JR]



Remi Cornwall writes:

     Meyer may have been unscientific and lacking in business ethics, the
     juries out on that, but why should anyone believe all this fanciful cf
     and hot poker quenching more than a Meyer cell?

     You have experts and lab results, they do too. Like I'm really confused.

Meyer did not have any experts. These results were never replicated in any
lab as far as anyone knows. Many people asked Meyer for the names of labs
that replicated or verified, but he never responded. CF is not fanciful. It
has been widely replicated by many outstanding labs like Los Alamos and
Mitsubishi. For more information you'll have to read the literature. You'll
find various on-line bibliography pointers at our web page:

www.infinite-energy.com

Like if you are confused, it is because you choose to be. You refuse to read
the literature to alleviate your confusion. You should learn the difference
between scientific research published by Los Alamos and a screwball scam run
out of a garage in Ohio.

There are other o-u phenomena which have not been widely replicated, and not
confirmed by major labs like Los Alamos. The Griggs device is an example. It
is much less credible than CF. However, it is more credible than Meyer because
there has been *some* independent verification, and because Griggs does not go
around stealing money from people by promising to deliver nonexistent
machines.


Elsewhere, regarding the Meyer device Cornwall asks:

**********************************Wish list*****************************
I want to know how's it done. Current, voltage, geometry of electrodes,
number of electrodes, temperature and what the hell are these resonant
frequencies?
************************************************************************

This is spelled out in the patents. Unfortunately, the patents do not work.
Meyer told us the machine should work and it is easy to replicate. It is
supposed to work every time, unlike CF, which everyone acknowledges has many
unresolved problems with materials.


Elsewhere he writes:

     .Meyer claimed to have a more efficient water splitter -> 100% (not
     over)

100% efficiency is impossible. I think Allan claims it is five times more
efficient than conventional electrolysis, which would make it roughly 350%
efficient (3.5 times over unity).


     .From this (above) something strange was happening and this pointed the
     way to ou.

     That's how I understand this. He wasn't meant to have claimed more.

Meyer claimed the water splitter ("Water Fuel Cell") extracts nuclear energy
from water. He claimed the Water Fuel Cell alone is sufficient to power an
automobile, without chemical fuel, an electric storage battery, or any other
source of energy. That, by definition, means he claimed over-unity
performance. Whether he called it "o-u" or not is irrelevant. Anyone who
supports his claims, and agrees that his car moved, also agrees that the Water
Fuel Cell is over-unity. Swartz says it was not o-u yet he agrees the car
moved. That is an absurd contradiction and a violation of the conservation of
energy.

Meyer repeatedly claimed the Water Fuel Cell is o-u, although he may not have
used that exact term. He said that with the Cell he could drive a car using
only water, with no fossil fuel or other source of energy. He showed up
repeatedly at conferences devoted to o-u energy and gave lectures, and he
bamboozled large sums of money out of people by promising to deliver Water
Fuel Cells that would run machines at no cost, without electricity or fuel.
Anyone who thinks he was not claiming o-u has rocks in his head.

Meyer was not unusual. You should realize that dozens of con men show up at
these conferences and make similar claims. A few of even show up at CF
conferences. This is a common form of fraud, like Ponzi schemes, snake oil
cures for cancer, or the bag-of-money-in-the-street game. These people try to
sell you a machine or solicit investment money. They refuse to submit their
machines to independent verification. They know practically nothing about
basic science, not even C. of  E. or Ohm's law. They will say, "it isn't o-u
but it is five times more efficient than regular electrolysis," without
realizing that regular industrial electrolysis is 60% efficient. As I said,
there are other warning signs. They lunge for the money. When you ask
legitimate questions they threaten to sue you, they intimidate you, or in
Meyer's case, they become enraged and throw objects at your head. It is
sometimes hard to tell the con men from the crackpots who infest this field,
like the guy who told me that refrigerators are actually o-u energy machines.
The con men ask for money; the crackpots want to lecture you about their
theory. I think Meyer had a little of both in him, but he was mostly in it for
the money.

We do not like to talk about con men and crackpots in the cold fusion field or
in this forum. Cold fusion scientists do not like to think about it because
they have always been accused of being frauds by people like you, Remi, who --
as I said -- cannot tell the difference between a scientific paper from a
national lab published in a peer reviewed journal and a screwball scam in a
garage. I.E. has never published an article about the scams. Perhaps we
should. Chris Tinsley used to say that medical journals do not run articles
about snake oil medical cures, so we should not discuss fakes which vaguely
resemble CF. He had a point. I personally do not know much about the criminal
laws and I have not had much direct experience with the con men, so I do not
feel I could write a good article about them. As I said, I have only been
taken by two of them, Potapov and Watson.

- Jed

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      At 05:16 PM 8/25/98 -0400, Jed wrote unable
to control his temper, his ad hominems, or even
a close approximation to the truth


>If Swartz is not actively engaged in a con game, he is instead giving support
>and scientific credibility to one, which is nearly as bad. 


   FALSE


>He is also using
>this Meyer con to publicly and privately attack me, and to spread confusion
>and rancor here, which is despicable. 


   FALSE, but I will defend myself to Jed's BS.


>I did not go too far. Indeed, I did not
>go far enough. Swartz has been attacking me here and in private and behind my
>back with this kind of garbage for years.

   Jed is projecting and a LIAR.   We have given ads in 
Cold Fusion Times to his mags, and it was JED who attacks me personally
with the TB-skeptics on spf, and was caught.
JED routinely attacks all who work in the field, as he
blames everyone for holding up the field.
  
   Jed is projecting -- and caught -- a LIAR about this
at this time.

 NOTA BENE: Because of Jed, we are considering stopping all posting of
scientific info on vortex, as Jed's behind-the-back attacks have 
stopped the posting on spf.

  

>  Whether Allan and Swartz profit
>directly or whether they stand aside and derive of some kind of perverse
>thrill when their mischief ruins more lives, they will be guilty as far as I
>am concerned. 

   
   Mr. Rothwell demonstrates a bilateral hippocampectomy,
or other organic functional defect here.  His memory is a
sieve which lasts microseconds. 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 15:15:09 1998
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    At 05:26 PM 8/25/98 -0400, Jed wrote:
>Bill Beaty and others might get in trouble from this
>mischief stirred up by Allan and Swartz. WE MUST TAKE A STAND. 

   Jed began this hornets nest by attacking the
recently dead Mr. Meyer, with whom Jed apparently had
some interactions.

   Jed began this with his ad hominems against the dead, joining his
list of attacks on living working scientists.

   


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 15:23:19 1998
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At 05:26 PM 8/25/98 -0400, Jed misstates, in his
characteristic pattern:

>>Meyer claimed the water splitter ("Water Fuel Cell") extracts nuclear energy
>from water. He claimed the Water Fuel Cell alone is sufficient to power an
>automobile, without chemical fuel, an electric storage battery, or any other
>source of energy. That, by definition, means he claimed over-unity
>performance. Whether he called it "o-u" or not is irrelevant. Anyone who
>supports his claims, and agrees that his car moved, also agrees that the
Water
>Fuel Cell is over-unity. Swartz says it was not o-u yet he agrees the car
>moved. That is an absurd contradiction and a violation of the conservation of
>energy.

  Mr Jed Rothwell more and more resembles a dissembling monkey at his
typewriter
as he continues to incorrectly purport what people say.

  Mr Jed Rothwell is a huckster to substitute what is EXACTLY said for
his self-serving, inaccurate, spin.

  Unbelievable.   .....................


  


   

       

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 15:24:56 1998
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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:25:53 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Inc. W Run 4,5,6
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Take a look at:

http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/run456.html

We have succeeded in performing reasonably acurate calorimetery on an
experiment so violent that it destroyed itself in less than fifteen minutes.

. . . still no sign of excess heat.

However, we have a really striking gas-flow anomaly to investigate: the
cell produces up to 4 times more gas than expected from the assumption that
one water molecule is dissociated every time two electrons pass through the
cell.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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Subject: Re: Re; Thoriated Tungsten is Different!
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
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At 09:54 8/25/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

>That figures Scott.
>
>My data for electron emission of Thoriated vs
>pure W shows 5 orders of magnitude greater electron emission of thoriated at

I'm dense.  How does it's electron emission affect the light I see from it
during incandescence?

Robert Eachus said:

>Remember what I said yesterday though--if you don't see
>OU, there is something wrong.  (The amount of OU expected will depend on
>the amoung of thorium in the apparatus.

>I get 90Th232 ---> 6 alpha + 4 beta + 82Pb208 + 42.605 MeV as the overall
>reaction.

Glad you told me about this, Robert...I was wondering where that extra
10^-11 watts was coming from!...<g>  Seriously, there is maybe 5 grams of W
in the cell which is 2% Th.  Th's half-life of 140E10 years dictates the
above reaction rate and the resulting heat power (if the gammas are stopped
in the cell) works out to about 2.8E-11 watts.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 16:49:06 1998
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Here is an interesting site I just stumbled across.  Shows flights that are
flying, have recently flown, or are about to take off.  Gives status information
in text format or with a map and a cartoon plane showing current location.

Check it out:
<http://www.thetrip.com/flightstatus/>

-- 

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    John E. Steck
      Senior Mechanical Engineer
      Rapid Tooling Applications
      Motorola CE, PCS, Libertyville, IL
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 17:30:18 1998
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Re; Thoriated Tungsten is Different!
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-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: George <gsparb juno.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: Re; Thoriated Tungsten is Different!

Scott wrote:


>At 09:54 8/25/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>
>>That figures Scott.
>>
>>My data for electron emission of Thoriated vs
>>pure W shows 5 orders of magnitude greater electron emission of thoriated
at
>
>I'm dense.  How does it's electron emission affect the light I see from it
>during incandescence?

Oh boy, I'm gonna take the easy way out, if I can.

If you have an electron enhanced discharge it
changes the discharge characteristics drastically. Rather than a few
electrons from pure W plus the electrons liberated by ion bombardment you
now have a copious supply of electrons.
Some data:
                Amperes/meter^2
 T Deg K        Pure W         Thoriated W

  1750           0.1             1.0E4

  2000           10.0            5.0E4

  2250           300             1.0E4*

  2500           5000            1.0E4*

* The thorium is vaporizing off thus dropping the electron emission,
otherwise the emission would be 3 orders of magnitude greater than pure W at
these temperatures!

The welding rods are Thoriated for a reason, and I suspect it is to improve
the TIG Arc. I'll let you dig into the how and why.   :-)
>
>Robert Eachus said:
>
>>Remember what I said yesterday though--if you don't see
>>OU, there is something wrong.  (The amount of OU expected will depend on
>>the amoung of thorium in the apparatus.
>
>>I get 90Th232 ---> 6 alpha + 4 beta + 82Pb208 + 42.605 MeV as the overall
>>reaction.
>
>Glad you told me about this, Robert...I was wondering where that extra
>10^-11 watts was coming from!...<g>  Seriously, there is maybe 5 grams of W
>in the cell which is 2% Th.  Th's half-life of 140E10 years dictates the
>above reaction rate and the resulting heat power (if the gammas are stopped
>in the cell) works out to about 2.8E-11 watts.

Thats a sub-stantial power.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick
>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 17:34:51 1998
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From: ZPE <zpe pdq.net>
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Subject: RE: VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED - reply to Hamdi Ucar
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Hamdi Ucar wrote:
* I think one can not protect them self against FE enemies by trying to keep their identities secret  while looking third party validations and investor. 
(snip)
Keeping our identity secret is meant only for the general audience of our announcement.  After we have "screened" potential 3rd party validation sources, we will fully reveal our identity to one of them in order to begin a relationship that will lead to d
isclosure of our findings to that source.  We realize that, in doing that, we are taking the chance that we "made the wrong choice".  If that happens and the threat of suppression or theft presents itself, immediate disclosure to everyone will occur autom
atically.  At that point, we will have submitted all our patent applications to secure our position as "inventor".
* We can not sure any lab private or not, have a contract with a "regulation" to report unusual phenomena, at least for security reason.
(snip)
This is true and is a chance we are taking.  However, we are doing everything we know to do to prevent this from being a problem.  Ideally, this "regulation" would have the interests of common people at heart and would assist us in bringing the technology
 to market at a safe pace.  As far as being a security risk, F/E has the potential for increasing the strength of our national security, for example, if the "regulation" were the U.S. Government.  Monetary savings caused by F/E would allow our government 
to allocate more funds toward our national defense.  Ultimately, energy is power and the country with the most energy (F/E or not) has the most power.  Think how much power the U.S. would have over non-F/E countries if it were the first to accept and prom
ote the use of free energy within our own country.
* Globally, regulations define how one do business. If you have a product which is not already defined by the regulation, one need absolutely to get the permission from regulation to produce and sell it.
* It is not realistic to find serious investment without knowing or 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 17:35:49 1998
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From: ZPE <zpe pdq.net>
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Subject: RE: VORTEX MYSTERIES - reply to John Steck
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ZPE wrote:
* All we need is 3RD PARTY VALIDATION.  

John Steck wrote:
* Of what process or device?  You forgot to waste some of your own money first. 8^)
Check some of my replies to other e-mail today for more details, but in short, over the years we have "wasted" significant amounts of money.  I don't consider it waste though, because everything we have done has served to advance our concepts.  All of our
 attempts to build experiments or devices that could be used to confirm our concepts ultimately faced technical difficulties that required more funds to overcome than what we had access to.  I might point out (as I have said in other replies) that our app
roach to F/E technology has been to first build a VERY SOLID conceptual foundation upon which to base any physical experiments and devices.  We have achieved this but only after many years of intense theoretical analysis.  Only recently have we begun to a
ttempt physical verification.  That was when we discovered the exciting connection between our discovery and vortex tube technology. (Read my 2nd reply to Horace Heffner for more details.)
BTW, it is people like you and Larry Wharton, having conceived of your own theories about the true physics of the vortex, that has prompted us to take the bold step of making our announcement.  You two are very close to being at the same point I was in th
e early 1980's.  People like me, you and Larry are the types of people that advancements in science and technology depend upon.  I wish we three could somehow work together in this effort. However, among probably several other reasons, our geographical lo
cations would prevent that from being practical.  Although, I would like the three of us to discuss this among ourselves, but something tells me that's not possible... especially with Larry.  I have sent him several messages since our announcement which h
e never replied to.  I suspect he thinks I am trying to "steal his thunder" and is rushing to get his work published so as to be the first to discover the secrets of the vortex.  If that's the case, I'm afraid that would be impossible.  Even I cannot get 
the credit for being the first even though I already published my concepts back in 1985 through an independent publisher.  The man we refer to in our web site who lived and died long ago will ultimately get the credit, and he deserves it.  I will probably
 be recognized for being the first to link his discovery to the underlying physics of the vortex phenomenon, but that is the least of my concerns.

Best Wishes,
ZPE
http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe


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Subject: VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED - 2nd reply to Horace Heffner's comments
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H. Heffner wrote:
* This seems circular.  You say you need money to test your theory.  You
* appear to imply you will not accept money until the theory is tested and
* found valid.  What are you proposing happens if the theory is tested and
* found to be not commercially viable?

Sure, there are some costs associated with third party evaluation and validation, however, these are relatively small as compared to the capital it will take to develop and market a whole new energy technology.  When our web site and my e-mail messages re
fer to "investment" this is what we are talking about.  Evaluation of our work by individuals qualified in the field will cost only the time of the evaluators.  Once they have seen and fully understood the overwhelming evidence of our work, they will then
 decide whether or not to advance to the next stages of experimentation and prototype construction to further "test" for the presence of the O/U physics to see it for themselves firsthand.  Though these phases can potentially cost significant dollars, fir
st making a positive evaluation of our work as individuals qualified to do so reduces the risk enough to warrant the modest expense needed to determine what level of commercial viability can be obtained by how much O/U effect can be produced and at what m
anufacturing cost.
Commercial viability spans a wide range.  At one end of the spectrum where viability is highest (manufacturing costs are lowest), ALL markets are open to the introduction of a fuel-less energy technology.  At the other end where viability is lowest (manuf
acturing costs are highest), very narrow markets still exist that can benefit greatly from such technology.  One example is NASA's space program, not as a replacement for rocket fuel, but as an inexhaustible source of power to be used aboard spacecrafts w
hile in space.  No longer would there be a need to transport fuel to space stations or future moon bases or Mars bases.  Nor would there be a need to "ration" the energy used for activities within the spacecrafts.  Being inexhaustible, power could even be
 used in large amounts, opening new doors of opportunity in areas of scientific research requiring microgravity environments.
* It appears totally preposterous to me that you and your partners have not
* in 15 years been able to find the resources to physically test your theory,
* i.e. to do a definitive experiment, or to build a practically useful
* device.  And now you want the money right away ... in 30 days?

It has taken us 15 years to come to a place where our concepts have advanced enough to warrant seeking outside help.  Up to this day, the resources of both time and money have been scarce.  As a result, each of us has required other jobs to support our fa
milies.  This, of course, means that our research has been a somewhat part-time effort much of the time.  Had we been able to dedicate ourselves full-time to advancing our work, I have no doubt that we would have advanced to our current status many years 
ago.  We have intentionally kept our discoveries and concepts secret, waiting for the day when we had sufficient strong evidence of the foundational O/U physics and had isolated the best possible designs to take advantage of that physics thereby maximizin
g commercial viability.  Without this kind of concept advancement, we would not stand a chance of convincing any educated person that there are falsehoods being maintained by the scientific community at large.  In the early years, I actually attempted to 
seek outside help from the scientific community, only to find out that I would have to advance my concepts on my own without their help simply because they went against the grain of popular scientific beliefs.  (Incidentally, during the first year after m
y discovery, being a perfectionist, I was my own worst critic.  Yet absolutely needing to know the real truth motivated me to pursue it until the real truth was revealed.)  As far as physically testing our theories, a while back we were in the process of 
doing that very thing (at great cost relative to our resources) when, by chance, we discovered the exciting connection between my original discovery and vortex technology.  A rapid succession of such "connections" followed that resulted in significant adv
ancement of our concepts.  Having linked our original discovery to the anomalous behavior of the vortex exposed to us the true physics of the thermodynamic vortex and the vortex tube.  We subsequently researched all available material on the vortex tube a
nd disco
Ranque-Hilsch (temperature separation) effect.  Several theories abound and one of them has even been accepted as if it has already been proven.  The fact is, (and read carefully) it has NOT been proven because NO empirical evidence exists that supports a
ny of those theories which, BTW, are based on compliance with conventional physics.  You ask where is the physical evidence (i.e. definitive experiment) to support our claims?  I ask where is the physical evidence (i.e. definitive experiment) to support t
he claims that the vortex tube is a (Carnot cycle) heat pump.  If you do your homework, you will find that NONE exists.  In fact, researchers' experiments have produced results that CONTRADICTS their theories and supports ours.  Do you hear them talking a
bout that?  In addition, even their attempts to simulate the Ranque-Hilsch effect using CFD code have failed to support any of their theories.  They had to "fudge" their CFD code in order to force their simulations to exhibit a temperature separation.  Th
e bottom line is that ALL of the empirical and computational evidence by ALL researchers throughout the history of the vortex tube SUPPORTS our theories and concepts!  That is why we have decided to use vortex tube technology as our physical evidence.  Wh
en our evaluators view vortex tube technology in the light of our discoveries, the truth will be crystal clear.
As far as "wanting money right away", (it's 64 days not 30) our decision to put a time limit on obtaining funds stems from our belief that time is quickly running out on our window of opportunity.  New energy discoveries are lurking at the door and it wil
l not be long before someone else makes the same discovery we made so many years ago.  When that happens, our well-funded competition will have the market advantage, unless we move now to be the first.  If we are not able to secure a funding partner in th
e very near future, we will at least achieve recognition for being the first to expose the truth.  This, we hope, will open new doors of opportunity for us.
* It makes me a crackpot or crank to profess the notion that there is the possibility of free energy indicated.

Why?  Just because some 19th century men, highly respected for their thermodynamic expertise, make unproven statements about the physics of the real world and are able to successfully declare them to be universal "laws" of physics even in the absence of p
hysical proof, it does not necessarily mean their statements were completely accurate in that they apply to ALL of physical reality.  Let's be completely objective here.  The phenomenon of the vortex as it exists within the vortex tube had not even been d
iscovered when the foundation of modern thermodynamics had been laid.  I ask, how could those men make a statement and claim it do be universally true without ANY proof when science had merelys scratched the surface of all there is to know about physical 
reality?  Were talking 19th century science!
* However, if
* I go advertise for private investor funds for my crackpot ideas before
* completing a diligent positive test, then that puts me in a whole new
* catogory of some kind.

Apply your statement to the unproven claims of the men I just described above, "crackpot" being defined as "unproven, without physical evidence and/or counter to the available physical and computational evidence".
* It appears possible that what you are actually seeking is research partners
* who will test your theory, collaborators.

As a very first step, this is true to a degree, although I wouldn't use the term "collaborators".  However, our ultimate goal includes the bigger picture of funding a full marketing strategy.
* That is reasonable and happens
* frequently on vortex.  Fred Sparber puts out about an idea a day, or at
* least an idea a week hoping for some validation sooner or later, for
* example.  There are also calls for replication, which are generally where
* the real excitement lies on vortex.  Calls for private cash based solely on
* an untested theory regarding free energy, however, are not reasonable,
* IMHO.  Accepted principles of physics are being violated, thus a high
* degree of proof needs to be forthcoming to justify the solicitation of
* cash.

Unfortunately for everyone, there are certain "accepted principles of physics" that are based entirely on "untested theories" lacking ANY proof, much less a "high degree of proof".  Yet, a "high degree of proof" is needed to overcome their "accepted" stat
us.  What's wrong with that picture?
Finally, I want to thank you Mr. Heffner for taking the time to express your very valid concerns.  I am quite sure there are many who are aware of our announcement that would express similar concerns if they took the time.  Therefore, I see you as represe
nting a large sector of the scientific community in general, which gives us the chance to address their concerns.  I encourage you (and anyone else) to continue challenging us.  In that way, the necessary communications can take place that will help to ex
pose the truth... not only the truth that our discovery is real, but the truth that our motives are ethical as well.

Best Wishes,
ZPE
http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe



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ZPE would like to recall the message, "VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED - reply to Hamdi Ucar".

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Hi Scott,
[snip]
>However, we have a really striking gas-flow anomaly to investigate: the
>cell produces up to 4 times more gas than expected from the assumption that
>one water molecule is dissociated every time two electrons pass through the
>cell.


Interesting.  Could the gas be a mixture of water steam and gases of
hydrogen and oxygen?  Browns Gas had a mixture of di-atomic and mon-atomic
H&O for more than expected gas output.  Do you have access to a gas
spectrometer?

Regards,   Michael Randall



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Hamdi Ucar wrote:
* I think one can not protect them self against FE enemies by trying to keep their identities secret  while looking third party validations and investor. 

Keeping our identity secret is meant only for the general audience of our announcement.  After we have "screened" potential 3rd party validation sources, we will fully reveal our identity to one of them in order to begin a relationship that will lead to d
isclosure of our findings to that source.  We realize that, in doing that, we are taking the chance that we "made the wrong choice".  If that happens and the threat of suppression or theft presents itself, immediate disclosure to everyone will occur autom
atically.  At that point, we will have submitted all our patent applications to secure our position as "inventor".
* We can not sure any lab private or not, have a contract with a "regulation" to report unusual phenomena, at least for security reason.

This is true and is a chance we are taking.  However, we are doing everything we know to do to prevent this from being a problem.  Ideally, this "regulation" would have the interests of common people at heart and would assist us in bringing the technology
 to market at a safe pace.  As far as being a security risk, F/E has the potential for increasing the strength of our national security, for example, if the "regulation" were the U.S. Government.  Monetary savings caused by F/E would allow our government 
to allocate more funds toward our national defense.  Ultimately, energy is power and the country with the most energy (F/E or not) has the most power.  Think how much power the U.S. would have over non-F/E countries if it were the first to accept and prom
ote the use of free energy within our own country.
* Globally, regulations define how one do business. If you have a product which is not already defined by the regulation, one need absolutely to get the permission from regulation to produce and sell it.
* It is not realistic to find serious investment without knowing or ensuring the product is permitted by law.

Agreed.  And there's no ethical reason why F/E technology would be considered illegal.
* I think the only way to protect an FE invention is to open as possible to public hide nothing and nothing would be covered by "enemies". Only large, organized communities could be invulnerable to suppression effort.

That may ultimately turn out to be true.  However, we are obligated to at least try before "playing our last card".
* I think it is *certainly impossible* to earn money with an invention based on FE or by any invention having strategic importance.

While I respect your opinion, I definitely disagree.  However, our "earning money" from our discoveries is only most important NOW for the simple reason that our window of opportunity for doing so will be closing in the near future.  Soon, other well-fund
ed "entities" will discover the same things.  If that happens before we can take advantage of our strategic position to profit, then we will get left out in the cold like many other inventors and visionaries of history.  Ultimately, we will "earn money" i
n the sense that F/E technology will drastically increase our standard of living along with everyone else.  THIS is our ultimate economic goal for society.

Best Wishes,
ZPE
http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe


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ZPE wrote:
> Only recently have we begun to attempt physical verification.  
> That was when we discovered the exciting connection between 
> our discovery and vortex tube technology. 

You mentioned this originally.  I am interested in understanding how this setup
is your "proof of concept".  I can wait, I am patient.... 8^)

> BTW, it is people like you and Larry Wharton, having conceived of your own 
> theories about the true physics of the vortex, that has prompted us to take 
> the bold step of making our announcement.  You two are very close to being 
> at the same point I was in the early 1980's.  

Please, do not feel threatened by my ramblings.  My ideas are far from anything
close to a full blown theory just yet.  I am operating more on intuition at the
moment (but through the years I've learned to trust my gut).  I know I'm close,
but the answer is still agonizingly out of reach.

> People like me, you and Larry are the types of people that advancements 
> in science and technology depend upon.  I wish we three could somehow 
> work together in this effort. However, among probably several other reasons, 
> our geographical locations would prevent that from being practical. 

In an age of digital cameras, websites, and email?... 8^)  I once managed an
entire product line from the other side of the globe via FAX and symbolic
messages to get around language barriers.  The tools have grown quite a bit
since then.  ha ha ha

> Although, I would like the three of us to discuss this among ourselves, 
> but something tells me that's not possible... 

As personal resources permit, I am interested in participating.  I have no
problem entering an NDA if that makes you sleep better at night.  I have been
involved in product development for many years and have extensive manufacturing
experience and contacts.

> I suspect he thinks I am trying to "steal his thunder" and is rushing to 
> get his work published so as to be the first to discover the secrets of 
> the vortex. 

You can have all the glory as far as I am concerned.  I have no vested interest.

> Even I cannot get the credit for being the first even though I already 
> published my concepts back in 1985 through an independent publisher.  
> The man we refer to in our web site who lived and died long ago will 
> ultimately get the credit, and he deserves it.

All I can claim is assembling the seemingly unrelated brilliant works of others
in a fashion that makes sense to me.  The more I learn the more I realize how
little I actually know.  I am not arrogant enough to think otherwise.  8^)

Nice chatting with you.  If you want to take any further discussion off line you
are welcome to contact me privately.   I would much rather share with the group,
but whatever you are comfortable with is fine with me.


-- 

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    John E. Steck
      Senior Mechanical Engineer
      Rapid Tooling Applications
      Motorola CE, PCS, Libertyville, IL
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 19:16:14 1998
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Thoriated W rods are different!
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At 04:29 PM 8/25/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>1. Could it be that Ohmori and Mizuno saw these reactions and mistook them
>for neutrons?

    If they used thoriated rods, they would see neutrons from spontaneous
fission.  Not many but they would be there.  (Actually you would also see
neutrons from spalling by the various 4-6 MeV alphas.)

>2. Is there any danger? Should Scott Little be taking precautions? Alpha
>and beta particles (electrons) do not sound dangerous, but what about the
>radon?
 
    If you keep it all contained in glass, there shouldn't be any major
problems, unless you produce enough gammas from the alphas.  (Gammas don't
penetrate much of anything.  Betas are a little more penetrating, but in
this case the lower energies cancel that out.  But the alphas can produce
gamma rays if the are deflected by high-z nucleii, and you have that.  But
a geiger counter should be enough to 1) tell you that something very
strange is going on and 2) warn you well before there is any radiation
hazard.)

    As for the radon, look at the half-life.  This is not the isotope from
uranium which causes problems, this won't be around long enough to go
anywhere.

    To put it all in perspective, these rods are sold with basically no
warning, and all these reactions go on all the time.  It is only if you can
push the decay rate on the Th232 up significantly that things get
interesting, and even if you push that rate by 1000x, which would be an
astonshing result, there would not be much immediate risk.  Just don't tuck
the apparatus under your bed and run it for a few years...

                                        Robert I. Eachus

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Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 4,5,6
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At 05:25 PM 8/25/98 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>Take a look at:
>http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/run456.html

    Not bad, but it looks like you need to repeat the experiment a few times.

>We have succeeded in performing reasonably acurate calorimetery on an
>experiment so violent that it destroyed itself in less than fifteen minutes.

>. . . still no sign of excess heat.
 
>However, we have a really striking gas-flow anomaly to investigate: the
>cell produces up to 4 times more gas than expected from the assumption that
>one water molecule is dissociated every time two electrons pass through the
>cell.
 
    I don't know that it is an anomly, in the sense of something
unexpected.  The thorium may end up as the oxide, but most of the rod is
tungsten which should be ending up as tungsten oxide or peroxide.  (Hmmm.
Thinking about it tungstanic acid?)  Anyway you should be able to recombine
and end up with leftover H2.  You will need to figure all this into the
energy balance.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

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From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 4,5,6
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Scott -

>However, we have a really striking gas-flow anomaly to investigate: the
>cell produces up to 4 times more gas than expected from the assumption that
>one water molecule is dissociated every time two electrons pass through the
>cell.


Any way to recombine the gas within the calorimeter and see if it
represents excess energy? Maybe someone will run a car on a water splitter
yet...

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


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At 06:16 PM 8/25/98 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>>I get 90Th232 ---> 6 alpha + 4 beta + 82Pb208 + 42.605 MeV as the overall
>>reaction.
>
>Glad you told me about this, Robert...I was wondering where that extra
>10^-11 watts was coming from!...<g>  Seriously, there is maybe 5 grams of W
>in the cell which is 2% Th.  Th's half-life of 140E10 years dictates the
>above reaction rate and the resulting heat power (if the gammas are stopped
>in the cell) works out to about 2.8E-11 watts.
 
   If the only thing going on was the Thorium 232 decay at its book
half-life, you shouldn't see much of anything. (That should be 1.405E10
right?)  But the book half-life is at STP, and unionized.  You are looking
under other conditions, and there has been a lot published recently about
half-lives not being quite so insensitive to external conditions.

   (And yes, it would be pretty neat to measure the heat release from the
thorium under standard conditions.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

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Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 4,5,6
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 98 23:07:30 -0000
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>However, we have a really striking gas-flow anomaly to investigate: the
>cell produces up to 4 times more gas than expected from the assumption that
>one water molecule is dissociated every time two electrons pass through the
>cell.

Scott,

Please also check your cell for chromium build-up. Prof. John Dash in 
trying the Ohmori-Mizuno experiment -- and not letting it get to the 
boiling, violent stage -- told me that he detected chromium that had not 
been there before. Please check with him for details.

I think you may have a lot of energy in that 4X gas.

Best,

Gene Mallove

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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:48:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 4,5,6
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A stab in the dark:  The extra gas might be CO2 from the carbonate in
solution. 
==
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 22:10:58 1998
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 4,5,6
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At 5:25 PM 8/25/98, Scott Little wrote:
>Take a look at:
>
>http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/run456.html
>
>We have succeeded in performing reasonably acurate calorimetery on an
>experiment so violent that it destroyed itself in less than fifteen minutes.
>
>. . . still no sign of excess heat.
>
>However, we have a really striking gas-flow anomaly to investigate: the
>cell produces up to 4 times more gas than expected from the assumption that
>one water molecule is dissociated every time two electrons pass through the
>cell.


You might weigh the teflon rod before and after.  Maybe you are pyrolizing
the teflon. You could keep a CO monitor nearby for safety reasons, and
might pick up some carbon monoxide which would be a sure indicator of
pyrolysis.  If the teflon is being depleted you could be generating CO2,
CO, CH3, and lots of various kinds of hydrocarbons.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 4,5,6
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At 5:25 PM 8/25/98, Scott Little wrote:
>Take a look at:
>
>http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/run456.html
>
>We have succeeded in performing reasonably acurate calorimetery on an
>experiment so violent that it destroyed itself in less than fifteen minutes.
>
>. . . still no sign of excess heat.
>
>However, we have a really striking gas-flow anomaly to investigate: the
>cell produces up to 4 times more gas than expected from the assumption that
>one water molecule is dissociated every time two electrons pass through the
>cell.

I wrote:

"You might weigh the teflon rod before and after.  Maybe you are pyrolizing
the teflon. You could keep a CO monitor nearby for safety reasons, and
might pick up some carbon monoxide which would be a sure indicator of
pyrolysis.  If the teflon is being depleted you could be generating CO2,
CO, CH3, and lots of various kinds of hydrocarbons."

It now occurs to me that you are consuming a lot of tungsten, which is
undoubtedly being oxidized.  The hydrogen remaining from the H2O from which
the O is stripped by the W has to go somewhere.

Scott, could you post the mass of the lost W, the expected volume of gas
due to electrolysis, and the actual volume of gas?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: Inc. W Run 4,5,6
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What a lovely bunch of suggestions and ideas!  THIS is the real value of
Vortex-L...to me at least.  Thanks to everyone who contributes.

At 09:12 PM 8/25/98 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:

>You might weigh the teflon rod before and after....

Yes, it is being eaten away slowly.  We'll check it out.

Michael Schaeffer said:  A stab in the dark:  The extra gas might be CO2
from the carbonate in solution. 

Yeah, Michael, I've made a crude attempt already to look for CO2 in the gas
stream...bubbling the gas through limewater. It's not very sensitive, I'm
afraid...or there is essentiall no CO2.  Anybody got a sensitive test for CO2?

Gene said:

>Please also check your cell for chromium build-up. Prof. John Dash....

OK, we're saving the solutions.  I'll ask Dash how much Cr he's seeing...if
it's ~100 ppm or more, I can see it via XRF, available nearby.

>I think you may have a lot of energy in that 4X gas.

If it's H2 and O2, you're right!

Robert E said:

>If the only thing going on was the Thorium 232 decay at its book
>half-life, you shouldn't see much of anything. (That should be 1.405E10
>right?) 

That must be right...in which case, raise me to 10^-9 watts from ordinary
Th-232 decay.

and:

>The thorium may end up as the oxide, but most of the rod is
>tungsten which should be ending up as tungsten oxide or peroxide.  (Hmmm.
>Thinking about it tungstanic acid?)  Anyway you should be able to recombine
>and end up with leftover H2.  You will need to figure all this into the
>energy balance.

Correct, there is a substantial consumption of W going on when we see the
4x excess gas and, come to think of it, the excess seems to be roughly
correlated with how fast we're chewing up the W....it could well be excess
H2.  Thanks.

Rick said:

>Any way to recombine the gas within the calorimeter and see if it
>represents excess energy? Maybe someone will run a car on a water splitter
>yet...

Yes, there is.  I've got these wonderful catalyst pellets that do a nice
job of recombining H2 and O2...I'm going to try something with them tomorrow.

Michael Randall said:

>Interesting.  Could the gas be a mixture of water steam and gases of
>hydrogen and oxygen?

Due to our cold trap, there should not be any water vapor at the
measurement point.

>Browns Gas had a mixture of di-atomic and mon-atomic
>H&O for more than expected gas output.  Do you have access to a gas
>spectrometer?

No....:(  A RGA is on the wish-list but, for now, we'll have to devise
methods of analyzing this gas.

Stay tuned for more....


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 25 23:32:17 1998
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Subject: Re: Calling Allan's bluff
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At 12:01 PM 8/25/98, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Perhaps we
>should put together a warning list for our readers, to avoid another Watson
>affair.
>
>- Jed


This is a great idea Jed.  It would make for a nice balance to the "Art of
Debunkery", which also has great merit.  Maybe it could be called the "Art
of the Free Energy Swindle."  Could even invent a "Swindle Index."  Assign
weighted values to various swindle indicating attributes so the reader can
form his own total.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: Calling Allan's bluff
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What it comes down to is that plunging hot pokers into water is serious 
research because el-neauvo dictatorship says so. Further more, your new 
government has made top-level decisions on your behalf to prevent people 
doing ac water splitty type things.

Stalin is dead. Long live Stalin!
Or stray dogs fighting over scraps of meat.
Of course, we could leave fe research in the far from mediocre hands of 
those who believe that zpe energy powers hurricanes, can be found in 
cables and so on every day a fanciful, frivolous new way. 
Now that's serious!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 03:36:38 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Griggs test errors
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:34:41 GMT
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On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:12:33 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
[snip]
>I have not been following these discussions, but I think this hypothesis is
>incorrect. The input power measurements are confirmed independently by the
>dynamometer, which registers exactly as much mechanical power from the motor
>as the manufacturer specifies. Input power is measured with the computer card,
>the Dranetz, and power company meter, and they all agree. They are based on

Not being familiar with the exact physical setup, I'm not really in
any position to argue. As I understood it, the argument presented went
something along the lines of:
The GG itself may have some internal resonance which results in it
loading the motor asymmetrically (more in one part of the cycle than
another?). I don't know how the dynamometer was connected, but I
assume it sat somewhere in the mechanical power train from the motor.
If so, then it may have been affected in just the same way as the
motor itself. Furthermore, the skewed load on the motor would result
in a distorted electrical load, which in turn may have fooled the
power meters.
[snip]
Please understand, that this is just my imperfect rendering of the
line of thought as I understood it. It seemed possible to me, which is
why I mention it now, as you said that you were going to be doing more
measurements on a GG. It would therefore seem prudent to check the
input voltage and current forms for any distortion.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 04:10:30 1998
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Hi,

The way the nature work is producing smaller, smaller components of matter and arrange them to obtain larger structures (quantizsation?). I did not well said it but no tricky things here.  (?) -> subatomic particles -> clouds -> to galaxies and cluster of
 them. Nature choose two way to organize the energy and the matter: ordered and random. Both have strong points and everything lies between order and disorder. (Ok this is an other subject)
Now, when we look how we define the mass and gravity classically we find the they are defined independently from structure of the matter and energy, a simple cumulation (integration) of the macroscopic density of the matter or the energy is accepted succe
ssfully represent these items. There is no such a thing in nature. Everything have a discrete structure, ordered or obeys statistical rules. Our general observation says the gravity and mass (inertia) have no specific structure (they are isotropic ... etc
.) Remain is random organization obeying statistical laws. We should accept this at least, otherwise we fall in a unnatural situation where is component of gravity, gravity build up as a static homage field where the complex dynamic structure of matter va
nish and very harmonically contribute the gravity build up without having degree of freedom in a ordered way, but still not displaying any sign of ordered structure properties of the matter. This is unnatural and seems illogical.

Instead, if we accept the statistical ordering of the gravity, things going be solved in a natural (in the way the nature works)  and logical.
This model have very important consequences, as the gravity components should have degree of freedom, and while they arranged randomly generally, in the natural way, it is possible to arrange them in more ordered schemes (i.e. coherent) which they show di
fferent characters than the bulk gravity.


What I am emphasizing here is to take care to how the nature works, taking account the degree of freedoms of object that  nature produce, not try to find odd solution while trying to model the things, but rather keep the simple as possible, then carry the
 sophistication to next level of integration, how the nature order the things. (in a very ingenious way using randomness and degree of freedom)


If we resemble the component of gravity defined by this scheme to electromagnetic waves, we can see the opportunity to handle the gravity as we handle electromagnetic waves and doing any sort of things. Good material for sci-fi writers. :)

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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Subject: Do the magnetic field have kind of inertia?
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Hi,

Think a simple short air core solenoid. While DC biased, we know, if one open the circuit, magnetic field tend to sustain itself by trying to flow the current trough the coil (trough open ends) and eventually large voltages are induced on the coil. (*) Ok
, as the magnetic field carry energy, we could not destroy it instantly but is there any law prevent to instantly swap to opposite direction the field, (B vector)? Energy conservation is satisfied, but as the dB/dT pass from infinity, it may not be allowe
d by any mechanism (or a suitable configurations exists?)
This remind me the inertia, field have a direction, and cannot instantly stopped or even instantly change direction, like inertia. Or if there is a way to instantly change direction of a magnetic field, there would be probably a way to scatter matter part
icles just light reflect from a mirror. Ok, there seems be a confusion here. I think the scheme to scatter electromagnetic waves by conductor plates or light from mirrors  is not the same think to reverse the direction of magnetic field of a coil, because
 this involve wave mechanics.

Another worthy point could be if one try to change the magnetic field on a coil very fast, faster than the light across the coil. Wouldn't it introduce an electromagnetic "supersonic boom" here?

(*) The energy transfered to electric field while the magnetic field collaps.

Regards,

hamdi ucar


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 04:37:59 1998
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From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
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Subject: Re: Calling Allan's bluff
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On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, Horace Heffner wrote:
At 12:01 PM 8/25/98, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Perhaps we
>should put together a warning list for our readers, to avoid another Watson
>affair.
>- Jed
This is a great idea Jed.  It would make for a nice balance to the "Art of
Debunkery", which also has great merit.  Maybe it could be called the "Art
of the Free Energy Swindle."  Could even invent a "Swindle Index."  Assign
weighted values to various swindle indicating attributes so the reader can
form his own total.
Regards,
Horace Heffner          
------------------------------
Hi Vo, Jed and Horace, :)  <keep smiling> :)  grain of salt?? :)

   I know this won't go over big, and believe me, I'm _NOT_ supporting
Greg Watson in any way, but there ARE (in my ~short-sighted eyes~) at
least TWO(2) sides to THIS 'affair'.  (still unsettled todate) WHY?
Feel Free to UPDATE the following Time-line:

The physical side smot:
1. THE RAMP (maybe from prior patent?) *DID* elevate a steel ball
2. BLUE-HOLE (whatever is in a name) *CAN *be observed to let go if
   tinkered with for alignment = Null flux area! NEW * NEAT STUFF!
2a. LOTS of ON-LINE from GREG for ANYONE & EVERYONE. (Initially?)
3. ROLL-A-WAY (I Thought I had it first try!) then I learned from all in 
   vo, level is not level is level etc.. very FINE line, but *neat to play
   with*  Yes, probably just a desk-top toy at best. but?, FINE.LINE
4. CLOSED-LOOP (NEVER had it, Never SAW it, but like others, I sure WANTED
   IT!)   So, 2/3 out of 4 on the PHYSICAL side... Not Bad for group-list?
   But, I DO like seeing ANY Steel Ball go UP-hill!  What can I say, I
   guess I'm too easily entertained! :} (sigh) sorry.

=====================

The Watson side smot:
1. PROMISES (like Allan's) "It WORKS and I can prove it!"
2. FOLLOW simple steps (you provide material even) learn it hands on!
   (This always seemed 'fair-enough' and scores +1 on this side of the
    affair) However, we'd ALL have fumble-fingers it seems???  hummm?
3. KIT(s) (Ever better too!:) (sigh) for those that can't fumble-finger it
3.a ALL ADDITIONS to be added at no extra cost (when shippable!) including
    magnetic flux-field viewing paper to see the blue-hole (no charge to
    ALL that paid for first version) 
4. SEND MONEY! (I would've too!. but wife said DO IT YOURSELF!) humm
5. CORPORATE TAKE-OVER? .. Oh No, Mr. BILL!
6. LEGAL CONTRACTS, TIME DELAYS (Expiration of Take-over) and lots of
   other legal~eze that didn't belong in this picture
7. Finished Product (molded forms?) ready to mail. -YEA!- 
7.1 Soon
7.2 manufacture causes delay
7.3 just more delay
7.4 GOT 'EM in hand! just hand polishing/adjusting them for YOU! ??
7.5 HERE THEY COME GET READY EVERYBODY
7.6 HERE THEY COME GET READY 5 of YOU, Verify them for Everybody!
8. ??? Earth to Greg Watson ???  <*POOF*>  Is he even 'still alive?'
9. WANTED RAMPS BY EVEYBODY WHO PAID, plu$ those that would've.
10. WANTED MONEY BACK BY EVERYBODY WHO PAID. Is he even 'still alive?'

Well, that's about the way I remember it. WISH IT WAS HERE. Is there an
addition that should be expanded on in the above time lines?
Physical Anomaly vs Greg Watson??
'Is he ALIVE?, for tar & feather, or in need of our help??'
H*ll, I don't even know that!
-------

So Close but so far, = no cigar.
JSYK: I'm _NOT_ going to give up on magnets because of THIS affair! 
-=se=-
steve (ducking for cover now- keep smiling VO:) ekwall
l8tr g8trs :)

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Hi Vortex
I have spoken with John Allan today and he has given me his side of the 
story.

I think Jed and Horace are being very unfair and have condemmed John 
without knowing all the facts.

I agree with Steve Re. Greg Watson, I don't think anyone would go to all 
that trouble for a few hundred dollars (he'll be back).

People need encouragment not flaming!

I suggest that both Jed and Horace just ring him.

Does anyone want to have another go at building a Meyer fuel cell?


Rob King


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 06:17:56 1998
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On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Rob King wrote:

> Does anyone want to have another go at building a Meyer fuel cell?

Yes. Talk to John Allen. If we do get something that works and want to 
scale up, our task has been made that more difficult by dogs eating dogs.

Don't say Meyer cells are absurd, so is cf, so is pm, so is anti-grav. 
Meyer cells are about as reasonable as any of the nonsense posted here.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 06:45:58 1998
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Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:46:49 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Inc. W Run 7
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Take a look at:

http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/run7.html

It's essentially a repeat of Run 6 and the results are much the same.
Another set of scope traces taken during incandescence is presented.

Today we are hot onto the "excess gas" phenomenon.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 07:30:51 1998
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At 08:46 AM 8/26/98 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
 
>It's essentially a repeat of Run 6 and the results are much the same.
>Another set of scope traces taken during incandescence is presented.
 
    Looks good, in fact better than Run 6, but...

>Today we are hot onto the "excess gas" phenomenon.
 
    When you account for the energy used in producing the gas, excess or
otherwise, and figure out what energy you are getting from the rod
combustion you should be close to an energy balance. Incidently I've
"burned" thoriated tungsten in a number of environments including air, CO2,
oxygen, nitrogen, "inert" gasses and water.  The only ones where I didn't
get chemical reactions, were helium and neon.  (With Xenon, the net result
was WXeO4, pulling the oxygen from the quartz. Argon acted similarly, but
we didn't get a good read on the x in ArXeOx, just that it was in the 2-3
range.)

    In other words, any stable compound you can imagine given the contents
of electrode and solution--and a few you can't--will be coming off that
electrode.  My bet is that you will have tungstannic acid in solution,
(HWO4? H2WO4? It has been a while?) and tungsten and thorium oxides and
peroxides as a precipitate, but I don't know what the effect of the K2CO3
buffer will be.
 

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 07:56:18 1998
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August 26, 1998

Scott,

You wrote: 

>Today we are hot onto the "excess gas" phenomenon.

Look into K2CO3 as a compound. It has no boiling point. It decomposes.

-AK-

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Calling Allan's bluff
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At 6:04 AM 8/26/98, Rob King wrote:
>Hi Vortex
>I have spoken with John Allan today and he has given me his side of the
>story.
>
>I think Jed and Horace are being very unfair and have condemmed John
>without knowing all the facts.


Rob, could you please post the text where I have condemned John Allen?  I
must have missed it.  8^)


>
>I agree with Steve Re. Greg Watson, I don't think anyone would go to all
>that trouble for a few hundred dollars (he'll be back).
>
>People need encouragment not flaming!
>
>I suggest that both Jed and Horace just ring him.
>
>Does anyone want to have another go at building a Meyer fuel cell?
>
>
>Rob King
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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hamdi;

>Think a simple short air core solenoid. While DC biased, we know, if one
open the circuit, magnetic field tend to sustain itself by trying to flow
the current trough the coil (trough open ends) and eventually large voltages
are induced on the coil. snip

>This remind me the inertia, field have a direction, and cannot instantly
stopped or even instantly change direction, like inertia.

The reason is simple.  What you think of as an electric or magnetic field,
are actually wave resonances in aether.  Aether is massive, and the ambient
universe has aether at some ambient density, not yet figured out.

If you study stars, you will learn that E=mc^2 leads to the production of
energy, but you will also learn that if our property mass, is due to the
amount of aether associated with specific geometries of waves, rather than
trying to imagine that particles are point things, then you begin to think
in terms of structures like smoke ring vortices and others.  These are
distributed wave structures, and associated with them are density gradients.

A given intensity of waveform, will have associated with it a different
intensity of distortion to the ambient aether density of the ocean you think
of as empty space.  Thus, when you combine nucleons to change from D to He
for example, you are changing the close in topology of the waves that ARE,
those particles.  This changes their view factors to deep space, the origin
of the wave energy driving their resonances, ie, the origin of spacetime.

Thus, flowing out of stars, is aether.  And yes, it leads to inertial
phenomena.  You are recognizing the momentum of the aether itself, buried
deep into all physical phenomena.  The only difference from one "force"
field to the next, is the topology of the wave energy.

If you study coronal mass ejections from our sun, or, white dwarf stars, you
will learn that matter is thrown away from those stars with a tremendous
amount of energy.  Today's physics cannot use the mechanism of aether flow,
so they don't really understand what is going on.  The only thing they
recognize is that there are intense magnetic fields associated with these
outbursts.  

Their problem, though, is that along with the intense magnetic fields, the
ions for some reason, despite tremendous differences in their charge to mass
ratios, somehow "accidentally" wind up with the same velocity dispersions.
It is as though the magnetic fields knew to heat the matter up to the degree
that an inertial process would have, applying a different amount of heating
for each individual ion with different charge to mass ratio.  

The reality is, the heating was inertial due to aether expanding out of the
star and accelerating outward in a sort of hydraulic jump.  This jump occurs
in the chromosphere, and especially across the coronal transition region, a
100 km thick no mans land separating the chromosphere and the corona.  That
is where the super critical aether flow rams into the aether flowing outward
away from the Milky Way galaxy and lends it's push to the expansion of the
universe.

If you look into it, in stars, you will learn that the inertial nature to
magnetic fields goes far deeper than just induction.  

Ross Tessien





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 08:35:13 1998
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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Griggs test errors
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To: Vortex

Robin van Spaandonk writes:

     The GG itself may have some internal resonance which results in it
     loading the motor asymmetrically (more in one part of the cycle than
     another?). I don't know how the dynamometer was connected, but I assume
     it sat somewhere in the mechanical power train from the motor.

This is an in-line dynamometer. It is installed between the motor and the
load. It looks a bit like an auto transmission. The electric motor turns the
dynamometer, the dynamometer turns the GG. I do not know much about the
internal workings, but I believe the dynamometer shaft has a strain gauge
to measure torque. That is, it measures the elastic twist of the shaft.

The power meter and the dynamometer measure different forces, using different
methods, based on different physical principles. I suppose internal resistance
or some other source of error might affect both of these instruments. But my
point is, it is not possible that it would affect both such that the answers
come out precisely as if there is no error. The error on one would not
precisely cancel out the error on the other. That would be a fantastic
coincidence. When there is a problem or a source of noise like internal
resonance, the instrument readings should be divergent and meaningless. The
dynamometer might show more energy than the power meter, or it might vary
wildly while input power is steady.


     If so, then it may have been affected in just the same way as the motor
     itself. Furthermore, the skewed load on the motor would result in a
     distorted electrical load, which in turn may have fooled the power
     meters.

The electric load varies quite a bit normally, and it is not proportional to
the mechanical load. Motors do not run at the same efficiency under all loads.
So you would expect predictable divergence and a coherent pattern. Actually,
if there were perturbations in the load, you would expect the dynamometer and
power meter to measure and report them faithfully, right on the dot. The
instruments are designed for that purpose, they are extremely rugged,
reliable, widely used, and they respond very rapidly. Both instruments are
comfortably within their recommended operating range. On the face of it, this
does not look like the kind of extreme conditions that give rise to errors.
These instruments have been used to measure every conceivable load and weird
condition, like what you see in a damaged jet engine a moment before it
disintegrates. (The sort of test U.S. Bureau of Standards used to do . . .)
There is no indication that the Griggs motor or mechanical load is under
anything but ordinary conditions: no vibration, no extreme swings heading
"off the chart;" nothing that leads you to suspect data is being lost
somewhere. In contrast, take the tungsten meltdown experiment that Scott
Little is doing. These conditions are extreme. Tungsten is difficult to
melt, and the power is jumping around wildly. This anode effect and its power
and heat domain have barely been researched. There are maybe six papers about
it in the history of science, and the most comprehensive one by Kellogg asks
more questions than it answers. Hundreds of thousands of papers have been
written about electric motor performance. The Griggs motor hums along
steadily, with no extreme vibrations or indication that perturbations are
affecting it, except during the transition when the ultrasound starts up. I
am not saying that a person can always spot a noisy environment and likely
distortion of data, but the warning signs are usually there.

Anyway, the dynamometer specifications are attached.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The dynamometer used by Griggs at Hydro Dynamics is an Eaton rotary
transformer torque sensor model 1805-5K. The spec sheet says:

Nonlinearity: of rated output  +/- 0.05%
Hysteresis: of rated output +/- 0.05%
Repeatability: of rated output +/- 0.02%
Zero balance: of rated output +/- 1.0%

Temperature range, compensated: +70 to +170 deg F; +21 to +77 deg C
Temperature range, useable: -20 to +170 deg F; -30 to +77 deg C
Temperature effect on output of reading per deg F: +/- 0.001%; per deg C:
0.0018%
Temperature effect on zero: of rated output per deg F: +/- 0.001%; per deg C:
0.0018%

Capacity: 5,000 lb * in; 565 N * m
Max speed RPM: 22,000
Protection for Overloads: 15,000 lb * in; 1,695 N * m
Torsional Stiffness 950,000 lb * in / Rad.; 107,330 N * m / Rad.
Rotating Inertia 8.41 * 10^-3 lb * in * Sec^2; 9.6 * 10^-4 N * m * Sec^2
Weight: 29 lbs; 13.2 kg

Please note the measurements taken at Hydro Dynamics are all far below these
maximum capacities. The unit is being operated well within the recommended
range of operating parameters. Also please note it was installed and tested by
a local engineering firm that specializes in this type of work, which is an
authorized dealer.

Product features include:

* High accuracy
* High overload protection with high signal output sensitivity
* Extended speed range
* Minimal maintenance due to "bearings only" contact
* Carrier frequency excitation provides increased signal/noise immunity
* 100 to 10,000 lb. in. capacities.

For more information, contact Eaton Aerospace & Commercial Controls.

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Jed,

Reading between the lines of your last response, this anode effect 
business you think is likely to yield new science (whereas electrolysis 
won't - as I read the implication). I have one question for all you 
fluids type workers: if everything is so fragile and distinergrates, 
probably continous industrial scale operation is impossible?

I think some kind of solid tate device which just sits quietly and does 
its job is needed. Fluids are tricky to work with: viscosity, surface 
effects,, corrosion, cavitation, etc.

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Remi Cornwall wrote:
> I think some kind of solid tate device which just sits quietly and does
> its job is needed. Fluids are tricky to work with: viscosity, surface
> effects,, corrosion, cavitation, etc.

Where is the fun in that?  ha ha ha

-- 

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    John E. Steck
      Senior Mechanical Engineer
      Rapid Tooling Applications
      Motorola CE, PCS, Libertyville, IL
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, John Steck wrote:

> Remi Cornwall wrote:
> > I think some kind of solid tate device which just sits quietly and does
> > its job is needed. Fluids are tricky to work with: viscosity, surface
> > effects,, corrosion, cavitation, etc.
> 
> Where is the fun in that?  ha ha ha

I assume when you were little you mixed all the chemicals in your 
chemistry set on day one and made a gigantic stink bomb/bomb/gaudy 
coloured solution that gave off all kinds of gases and made rude noises. 
There's fun and science in the complicated!!

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	Dear ZPE and Vo.,


	1] We all maybe want 'FE'.  I, for one, ahve been searching for 
waht I call "hardball, nuts and bolts, belt and suspenders"  ... and I 
will abbreviate as HB, or hardball, engineering methodology.
	2] I know of others, some post to Vo., some do not, who are 
honest and reliable and REALLY want to find HB.
	3] FE is one thing.... but also valid and useful are more 
effective and-or efficient methods of "making energy".  As an example 
there is much work to improve 
		a] photovoltaic cells
		b] heat conversion, including better forms of co generation
		c] fuel cells
	4] much work is done and written about "direct energy 
conversion"... examples include but are not limited to [a], [b], and [c]
	5] NOW:  The open question and open journey to vo., lurkers of 
vo, and friends of same:

	NOTE:  I will call energy conversion EC and making energy ME...


	Do any of you have a real and abiding interest in "non FE or O/U" 
methods for "making energy"?



	6]  My opinion is that not well exploited or not well known or 
completely unknown [in the general literature] or "NEW" forms of 
	Hardball EC and ME offer a VERY good starting point to find FE 
and-or OU and certainly may provide a good way to generate the funds to 
find FE or OU....

	7] Any useful ME or EC can certainly benefit economies and
ecologies.

	8]  anyone game?

	Opinion:  Energy directed toward ME and EC as an intermediate to 
other research is MUCH better ... on all counts... than energy and 
emotion and human effort directed toward fighting, flaming, blaming and 
generally urinating.


	In good spirit and faith... and in the interest of using 
bandwidth to convey the cool and fun stuff ... and potentially VERY 
useful  beneficial stuff that drew me to vo... and keeps me here, for many 
years....  Let us:

	Do the fun and beneficial stuff and writing
	Back off on the anger


	To all vo:

	yea or nay on the above.

				JHS

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 12:05:31 1998
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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Griggs, Jed's response
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To: Vortex

AGAIN, I apologize for posting this here. Remi: PLEASE give me your e-mail
address! Everyone else: Please skip this message!

- JR

- - - - - - - - - -

Remi-san. You wrote:

     Reading between the lines of your last response, this anode effect
     business you think is likely to yield new science (whereas electrolysis
     won't - as I read the implication).

Nope . . .

First, I do not write between the lines. I spell out exactly what I mean, and
my ideas are concrete, literal, simple and direct, never abstract or
generalized. You might as well try to read between the lines of a telephone
equipment user manual, which is the sort of thing I used to write.

Second, I do not think the anode effect is likely to lead to new science. I
think the excess heat and gas probably have a conventional chemical
explanation, or they are artifacts caused by incorrect input power
measurement. Scott's latest experiments are better replications of the results
seen elsewhere, especially the excess gas. I think he is zeroing in the
answer, and it will be conventional.

Third, I think Meyer style electrolysis *has not* yielded new science. It
might have, but it didn't. Not yet, anyway. I have no idea where new science
might lie. It might be in electrolysis, or tiny plasma discharges on tungsten,
or in a whirling mass of water in the Griggs and Perkins-Pope device, maybe
even in these magic magnet motors . . . I haven't a clue where new science is
lurking because I know practically nothing about theory. I can only judge
where new science has been found. Anyone can judge that. Look for widespread
replications and confirmations at high sigma. Many people tried to replicate
Meyer but none succeeded, and Meyer never allowed anyone to test his machines.
So on a scale of 1 to 10 Meyer's credibility is zero to five significant
decimal places. There is not a single reason to believe him. With the Griggs
device there have been a few confirmations and an independent replication in
the form of the Perkins-Pope machine. The sigma level (S/N ratio) of the data
is low. I guess that puts his credibility around 2. Pons and Fleischmann were
replicated by hundreds of labs using many different techniques, and in some
case the sigma level is over 100, so their credibility is 10. By the way,
credibility is not a function of popularity, political correctness, or
acceptance by establishment science, and there may be little correlation. The
top quark experiment was never replicated, and the sigma is low, but I gather
the folks at Fermilab are reliable and honest, so I guess they rate 2 or 3. I
don't know enough about quarks to judge. The Michelson - Morley experiment was
never replicated. It was very noisy, and the follow-up experiments with better
equipment appeared to yield opposite results, so my guess is that the
invariance of the speed of light is down around 1 somewhere, but again, I
cannot judge.


     I have one question for all you fluids type workers: if everything is so
     fragile and distinergrates, probably continous industrial scale
     operation is impossible?

This is not a question. It is an assertion, and I agree. It is difficult to
imagine an economical energy generation system based on something like the
Ohmori cell. If tungsten was as cheap as coal it might be doable. My guess is
that palladium electrolysis CF cells are also uneconomical, and have no
commercial future.


     I think some kind of solid state device which just sits quietly and does
     its job is needed. Fluids are tricky to work with: viscosity, surface
     effects, corrosion, cavitation, etc.

A solid state device that produces electricity would be ideal. It would be
much better than a fluid or moving mechanical device like the magic magnet
motors, and better than convention fossil fuel or photovoltaics. However, a
solid state device may be physically impossible, whereas the fluid and
electrochemical devices definitely exist. I have heard rumors that solid state
devices exist, but I have never seen a proper scientific paper, and I know of
no credible reports or replications. An actual but imperfect fluid device is
better than an imaginary solid state device.

Elsewhere you wrote:

     Don't say Meyer cells are absurd, so is cf, so is pm, so is anti-grav.
     Meyer cells are about as reasonable as any of the nonsense posted here.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding. Absurdity or reasonableness are
irrelevant. The only standards are replication and sigma. If a "reasonable"
conventional, predicted effect is not seen,  after many people look for it,
then it is not there, and you have a new mystery like the missing solar
neutrinos. If an unreasonable, absurd result like CF excess heat *is* widely
observed, then it must be real. There are no other objective standards. Many
phenomena which were formerly considered nonsense turned out to be real, and
vice versa. Naturally, if Meyer cells work and they are widely replicated,
they are real and I am incorrect. But so far that has not happened. Many
excess energy claims have not been replicated, like Arata's for example. But I
never shout and complain about Arata, whereas I think Meyer is dreadful. That
is not because of the *scientific* validity or apparent absurdity of the
claims. I object to Meyer's actions, not his claims. Arata and Meyer are
equally absurd as far I can tell. I know little about theory, I cannot judge.
However, Arata does not go around telling people his experiment was
replicated. He does not collect thousands of dollars in down payments for
practical energy machines and then refuse to deliver. Many people have visited
Arata, and he has allowed them to examine his machine. He has published data.
There is a world of difference. You seem to have difficulty distinguishing
between imaginary claims, outright falsehoods, and matters of fact which you
can verify with a quick trip to the library. Earlier, you wrote:

     You have experts and lab results, they do too. Like I'm really confused.

I really do have experts and lab results. You can look them up in the
bibliographies on our web page, and read their papers in the library. I have
thousands of genuine references. Okay, maybe my experts are wrong. That's
another issue. But my experts do live and breath, whereas the "experts"
claimed by Meyer, Allan and Swartz are total fabrications. Ask them! They
cannot give you the name of a single scientific paper or a live expert, except
themselves, of course. Oh sure, they claim they have references. They bluster,
they shuffle and jive and post endless BS, but they never give you SPECIFIC
information because they do not have any! No papers, no names, dates, or
bibliographies . . . nothing. After you read the CF literature, you might
conclude that McKubre, Ohmori, Miley and Hagelstein are ignorant boobs who
made stupid mistakes, and CF results are all nonsense. But you will not
conclude that Jed Rothwell fabricated these names and planted the articles in
university library journals worldwide. You will see my experts do exist,
whereas all experts and all claims made by Meyer, Allan and Swartz are total
fabrications, without a shred of truth, intended only to defraud the public.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 12:16:19 1998
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For Run 8, we arranged an external recombiner consisting of a small
diameter glass tube filled with the Pd-coated alumina catalyst pellets that
we've used successfully in the past.

We arranged the gas plumbing so that the exit gases would pass thru the
recombiner tube first, then into a cold trap to remove the water vapor and
then on to a new, much larger gas volume apparatus in which we intended to
capture ALL the "excess gas" that made it past the recombiner.

We started the run in the usual manner with about 4 amps of warm-up
electrolysis, which creates a healthy flow of H2 and O2 from the cell.  We
watched curiously as the first recombiner pellets in the stack began to
glow red, then orange hot with the heat of formation of H2O.  Despite this
ominous clue, somehow we were still startled when the stoichiometric gas
mixture coming from the cell ignited and the flame front raced back into
the cell and exploded the gas in the cell's head space.  

Most of the glass components inside the calorimeter chamber were shattered
by the shock.  Nobody was hurt.  We're rebuilding things now.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED - 2nd reply to Horace Heffner's comme
	nts
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:21:41 -0700
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Too many words, not enough description. No NUMBERS!
Hank

> ----------
> From: 	ZPE[SMTP:zpe pdq.net]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Tuesday, August 25, 1998 5:35 PM
> To: 	'vortex-l eskimo.com'
> Subject: 	VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED - 2nd reply to Horace Heffner's
> comments
> 
> H. Heffner wrote:
> * This seems circular.  You say you need money to test your theory.  You
> * appear to imply you will not accept money until the theory is tested and
> * found valid.  What are you proposing happens if the theory is tested and
> * found to be not commercially viable?
> 
> Sure, there are some costs associated with third party evaluation and
> validation, however, these are relatively small as compared to the capital
> it will take to develop and market a whole new energy technology.  When
> our web site and my e-mail messages refer to "investment" this is what we
> are talking about.  Evaluation of our work by individuals qualified in the
> field will cost only the time of the evaluators.  Once they have seen and
> fully understood the overwhelming evidence of our work, they will then
> decide whether or not to advance to the next stages of experimentation and
> prototype construction to further "test" for the presence of the O/U
> physics to see it for themselves firsthand.  Though these phases can
> potentially cost significant dollars, first making a positive evaluation
> of our work as individuals qualified to do so reduces the risk enough to
> warrant the modest expense needed to determine what level of commercial
> viability can be obtained by how much O/U effect !
> !
> can be produced and at what manufacturing cost.
> Commercial viability spans a wide range.  At one end of the spectrum where
> viability is highest (manufacturing costs are lowest), ALL markets are
> open to the introduction of a fuel-less energy technology.  At the other
> end where viability is lowest (manufacturing costs are highest), very
> narrow markets still exist that can benefit greatly from such technology.
> One example is NASA's space program, not as a replacement for rocket fuel,
> but as an inexhaustible source of power to be used aboard spacecrafts
> while in space.  No longer would there be a need to transport fuel to
> space stations or future moon bases or Mars bases.  Nor would there be a
> need to "ration" the energy used for activities within the spacecrafts.
> Being inexhaustible, power could even be used in large amounts, opening
> new doors of opportunity in areas of scientific research requiring
> microgravity environments.
> * It appears totally preposterous to me that you and your partners have
> not
> * in 15 years been able to find the resources to physically test your
> theory,
> * i.e. to do a definitive experiment, or to build a practically useful
> * device.  And now you want the money right away ... in 30 days?
> 
> It has taken us 15 years to come to a place where our concepts have
> advanced enough to warrant seeking outside help.  Up to this day, the
> resources of both time and money have been scarce.  As a result, each of
> us has required other jobs to support our families.  This, of course,
> means that our research has been a somewhat part-time effort much of the
> time.  Had we been able to dedicate ourselves full-time to advancing our
> work, I have no doubt that we would have advanced to our current status
> many years ago.  We have intentionally kept our discoveries and concepts
> secret, waiting for the day when we had sufficient strong evidence of the
> foundational O/U physics and had isolated the best possible designs to
> take advantage of that physics thereby maximizing commercial viability.
> Without this kind of concept advancement, we would not stand a chance of
> convincing any educated person that there are falsehoods being maintained
> by the scientific community at large.  In the early ye!
> !
> ars, I actually attempted to seek outside help from the scientific
> community, only to find out that I would have to advance my concepts on my
> own without their help simply because they went against the grain of
> popular scientific beliefs.  (Incidentally, during the first year after my
> discovery, being a perfectionist, I was my own worst critic.  Yet
> absolutely needing to know the real truth motivated me to pursue it until
> the real truth was revealed.)  As far as physically testing our theories,
> a while back we were in the process of doing that very thing (at great
> cost relative to our resources) when, by chance, we discovered the
> exciting connection between my original discovery and vortex technology.
> A rapid succession of such "connections" followed that resulted in
> significant advancement of our concepts.  Having linked our original
> discovery to the anomalous behavior of the vortex exposed to us the true
> physics of the thermodynamic vortex and the vortex tube.  We subsequen!
> !
> tly researched all available material on the vortex tube and disco
> Ranque-Hilsch (temperature separation) effect.  Several theories abound
> and one of them has even been accepted as if it has already been proven.
> The fact is, (and read carefully) it has NOT been proven because NO
> empirical evidence exists that supports any of those theories which, BTW,
> are based on compliance with conventional physics.  You ask where is the
> physical evidence (i.e. definitive experiment) to support our claims?  I
> ask where is the physical evidence (i.e. definitive experiment) to support
> the claims that the vortex tube is a (Carnot cycle) heat pump.  If you do
> your homework, you will find that NONE exists.  In fact, researchers'
> experiments have produced results that CONTRADICTS their theories and
> supports ours.  Do you hear them talking about that?  In addition, even
> their attempts to simulate the Ranque-Hilsch effect using CFD code have
> failed to support any of their theories.  They had to "fudge" their CFD
> code in order to force their simulations to exhibit !
> !
> a temperature separation.  The bottom line is that ALL of the empirical
> and computational evidence by ALL researchers throughout the history of
> the vortex tube SUPPORTS our theories and concepts!  That is why we have
> decided to use vortex tube technology as our physical evidence.  When our
> evaluators view vortex tube technology in the light of our discoveries,
> the truth will be crystal clear.
> As far as "wanting money right away", (it's 64 days not 30) our decision
> to put a time limit on obtaining funds stems from our belief that time is
> quickly running out on our window of opportunity.  New energy discoveries
> are lurking at the door and it will not be long before someone else makes
> the same discovery we made so many years ago.  When that happens, our
> well-funded competition will have the market advantage, unless we move now
> to be the first.  If we are not able to secure a funding partner in the
> very near future, we will at least achieve recognition for being the first
> to expose the truth.  This, we hope, will open new doors of opportunity
> for us.
> * It makes me a crackpot or crank to profess the notion that there is the
> possibility of free energy indicated.
> 
> Why?  Just because some 19th century men, highly respected for their
> thermodynamic expertise, make unproven statements about the physics of the
> real world and are able to successfully declare them to be universal
> "laws" of physics even in the absence of physical proof, it does not
> necessarily mean their statements were completely accurate in that they
> apply to ALL of physical reality.  Let's be completely objective here.
> The phenomenon of the vortex as it exists within the vortex tube had not
> even been discovered when the foundation of modern thermodynamics had been
> laid.  I ask, how could those men make a statement and claim it do be
> universally true without ANY proof when science had merelys scratched the
> surface of all there is to know about physical reality?  Were talking 19th
> century science!
> * However, if
> * I go advertise for private investor funds for my crackpot ideas before
> * completing a diligent positive test, then that puts me in a whole new
> * catogory of some kind.
> 
> Apply your statement to the unproven claims of the men I just described
> above, "crackpot" being defined as "unproven, without physical evidence
> and/or counter to the available physical and computational evidence".
> * It appears possible that what you are actually seeking is research
> partners
> * who will test your theory, collaborators.
> 
> As a very first step, this is true to a degree, although I wouldn't use
> the term "collaborators".  However, our ultimate goal includes the bigger
> picture of funding a full marketing strategy.
> * That is reasonable and happens
> * frequently on vortex.  Fred Sparber puts out about an idea a day, or at
> * least an idea a week hoping for some validation sooner or later, for
> * example.  There are also calls for replication, which are generally
> where
> * the real excitement lies on vortex.  Calls for private cash based solely
> on
> * an untested theory regarding free energy, however, are not reasonable,
> * IMHO.  Accepted principles of physics are being violated, thus a high
> * degree of proof needs to be forthcoming to justify the solicitation of
> * cash.
> 
> Unfortunately for everyone, there are certain "accepted principles of
> physics" that are based entirely on "untested theories" lacking ANY proof,
> much less a "high degree of proof".  Yet, a "high degree of proof" is
> needed to overcome their "accepted" status.  What's wrong with that
> picture?
> Finally, I want to thank you Mr. Heffner for taking the time to express
> your very valid concerns.  I am quite sure there are many who are aware of
> our announcement that would express similar concerns if they took the
> time.  Therefore, I see you as representing a large sector of the
> scientific community in general, which gives us the chance to address
> their concerns.  I encourage you (and anyone else) to continue challenging
> us.  In that way, the necessary communications can take place that will
> help to expose the truth... not only the truth that our discovery is real,
> but the truth that our motives are ethical as well.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> ZPE
> http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 13:17:44 1998
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Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:12:41 -0400
From: Soo <Soojay compuserve.com>
Subject: Access difficulties
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Bill,

A friend in the UK is having problems subscribing to vortex, and has
apparently  been making fruitless attempts to subscribe for the last year. 
When he attempts to access the web site, or send a "subscribe" email he
gets the message.... "unable to make contact - maybe the site is down"

Any suggestions?

regards
Soo

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 13:22:48 1998
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Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:21:17 -0400
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
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Scott Little wrote:
> 
(snip)

> the cell and exploded the gas in the cell's head space.
> 

Good lord, Scott!  Be careful! - shades of the CF explosion.

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 13:38:19 1998
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From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Run 8 explodes!
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Scott -

   >  [...] a new, much larger gas volume apparatus in which
   >  we intended to capture ALL the "excess gas" that
   >  made it past the recombiner.

Presumably that was a flexible bladder or similar expandable accumulator,
right?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 13:51:41 1998
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Hi Scott,

Glad to hear nobody got hurt.

Sounds like the catalyst pellets ignited the H2 and O2 gas.  Try to plumb
the gas thru a water bubbler "backfire container"  then to the recombiner
chamber and your other stages down stream.   It can be made out of steel, to
help it withstand explosive backfire.  A check valve in the hose from the
electrolyser to the "backfire container" will prevent the electrolyser from
flooding with water from the backfire container if there is an explosion
from the backfire container or implosion from the electrolyser.   This
worked for BG electrolysers.

Always good to have some sheets of Lexan, at least 1/4 inch thick, to use as
blast deflectors for your experiment.   Just take a lot of care and keep
safety uppermost in mind.

Regards,   Michael Randall


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 13:54:25 1998
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Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:43:15 -0400
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At 02:58 PM 8/26/98 -0400, Jed the Liar wrote:
>You will see my experts do exist,
>whereas all experts and all claims made by Meyer, Allan and Swartz are total
>fabrications, without a shred of truth, intended only to defraud the public.
>


    Mr. Rothwell was TOLD his statements were not true. 

 So he now claims everyone he "knows?" is an expert, but
anyone who corrects him, or asks scientific information,
is "without a shred of truth". 

 The statement itself suggests absence of truth.



 Mr. Rothwell, continues his inaccurate, deceptive, frothing,
BS.   Rothwell's lies are continued to be rumored by his friends 
on spf.  This episode demonstrates Rothwell to be a deceptive,
lying, scoundrel who has/will pull Dr. Mallove down by Rothwell's
clown-like behavior.

      Mitchell Swartz

==========================================================

  Anyone seriously interested in the cold fusion literature 
will find much more than they expect.  

  More references are available at
http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrefs.html
and   http://kemi.aau.dk/~db/fusion/index.html


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 13:55:04 1998
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Subject: Re: Run 8 explodes!
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Scott:

consider this:  You just had a small chemical explosion.  the gases had no
where to go, ie, no pop off release valve such as a hot water heater has to
vent excess steam pressure.  That was the situation over at SRI that killed
the researcher, so beware of keeping things too tightly confined.  Though
with glass you aren't going to build up that much pressure, just keep your
glasses AND face shields on during runs.

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :

If you do succeed at getting nuclear reactions of any kind whatever to
manifest, then the bang could come very fast and due to a very much larger
energy production inside of the W itself.  In that case, the energy density
could build up to much higher values due to the mechanical integrity of the
metal as compared to the glass.

The build up could occur in millionths of a second, ie, read the passages
about the first fission reactor again where the entire place lit up breifly
when the control rod was pulled out too far.

The point being, a nuclear explosion could lead to very much greater energy
disipation in a very short time frame.  I would get some steel 1/4 inch
thick and or some one inch polycarbonate for a blast shield if at all
possible.  I think that is what they put in over at SRI.

ie, for the most part, people on vortex are playing around with this or
that, and no one has protection against explosions.  Basically, everyone
assumes this stuff is benign, or that it just isn't even nuclear.  If you
assume it is nuclear, then you have a tiger by the tail, and if it decides
to smack you one it won't take but a few millionths of a second to do so.
Last I checked, our reflexes aren't that fast.

Be careful.  

I hope to begin some research soon, but the first thing I plan to construct
is a steel blast enclosure with a video camera for viewing.  

When they observe explosions for real, what they do is to photograph the
thing using a mirror that looks around the corner of the blast shield toward
the explosion.  That way, even if things go boom, the camera is still ok.
The mirror is schrapnel, but that costs less to replace.

A W wire blowing up under water is probably fairly safe over all.  the water
will damp the schrapnel of the W explosion.  But the shock would explode the
container instantly.  Check out the effect of firing a bullet through a
container full of water.  The exit explodes due to the shock.  For you, the
shock will be internal and the explosion will take place in all directions
if you succeed.  And the fact that you are not trying to fail, sort of
implies you ought to protect yourself in the event you do succeed.  ie, you
don't want your tombstone to read, 
    "He was blown up, but he succeeded"     ;-(

Later, Ross Tessien

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 13:55:33 1998
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  At 12:01 PM 8/25/98 -0400, Jed wrote:

>That was Meyer's game. I expect that Alan and Swartz inherited
>this con game from Meyer. They took over the business when
> he died, and they are trying to squeeze it for what it is worth. 


    Mr. Rothwell was TOLD his statements were not true. 

 Instead, Mr. Rothwell, continued his inaccurate, deceptive, frothing,
BS anyway.  Rothwell's lies are copied by his low wattage 
friends on spf.  

This episode demonstrates Rothwell to be a deceptive,
lying, scoundrel who has/will pull(ed) Dr. Mallove down by
his clown-like sophomoric behavior.


  We are disappointed that led by the self-chosen conductor 
Jed Rothwell, still busy attacking live and dead researchers, 
there is, and thus can be, no serious interest on vortex-l.


  Given that we have an interest in truth and science,  we will 
try to stop using vortex except to correct Jed's idiot comments,
and find another way to communicate with those seriously interested
in using the usenet for serious R&D of cf and o/u systems,
free of (f)Rothwell's attacks, lies, and parallax view where 
calibration, pH, actual materials, and accuracy are ignored.
  
      Mitchell Swartz

==========================================================

  Anyone seriously interested in the cold fusion literature 
will find much more than they expect.  

  More references are available at
http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrefs.html
and   http://kemi.aau.dk/~db/fusion/index.html


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 13:56:20 1998
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Scott -

   >  Most of the glass components inside the calorimeter
   >  chamber were shattered by the shock.  Nobody was
   >  hurt.  We're rebuilding things now.

Blowin' stuff up. Now that's science!

Glad no one was hurt.  Also glad my suggestion that the gasses be
recombined wasn't really such an original notion. <g>

Is it correct then to state then that the pout as heat is pretty close to
pin, but then you also get a bunch of gas that blows stuff up? If so, could
this extra energy be accounted for by the loss of W to oxidation as some
have suggested? That's an excess of H then, but then what's the oxidizer
for it in the presence of the catalyst pellets?

Exciting stuff Scott. Certainly justifies Gene's mentioning the need for a
bunker to run these tests.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Run 8 explodes!
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To: Vortex

Scott: I hope you wear safety glasses!!!


Yes, electrochemistry is not all fun & games. And the heat from this
experiment cracked another cell. Pyrex, I think it was.


     We watched curiously as the first recombiner pellets in the stack began
     to glow red, then orange hot with the heat of formation of H2O.  Despite
     this ominous clue, somehow we were still startled when the
     stoichiometric gas mixture . . .

Whoa! How do you know it is stoichiometric? Maybe you have extra hydrogen
because the oxygen is back in the cell in a tungsten compound or something.
You will have let the gas build up I guess, or use the bubbler-flowmeter to
see if any unrecombined gas is left over in the recombiner chamber. Maybe
extra hydrogen caused the flame? Maybe it will leave the recombiner cell
unburned, and you will underestimate output. Ugh, complicated.

The calorimeter configuration is not clear to me. I hope you are measuring the
heat from the recombiner chamber. Perhaps this is super-energy-dense hydrino
gas or mono-atomic gas, or unicorn breath. As Fats Waller put it, "One never
knows, do one?"

- Jed

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Soo wrote:

> Bill,
>
> A friend in the UK is having problems subscribing to vortex, and has
> apparently  been making fruitless attempts to subscribe for the last year.
> When he attempts to access the web site, or send a "subscribe" email he
> gets the message.... "unable to make contact - maybe the site is down"
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> regards
> Soo

Subscription requests must go to vortex-l-request eskimo.com with the word
"subscribe" (without quotes) in the subject line.

Terry



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 14:29:35 1998
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John Schnurer wrote:

<snip>> 
>         yea or nay on the above.
> 

Put me down for a "yea". I agree: less anger, more experimenting.

Kyle R. Mcallister

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At 10:30 8/26/98 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote:

>Presumably that was a flexible bladder or similar expandable accumulator,
>right?

No, it's a 500 ml glass graduated cylinder...same strategy as before just a
larger cylinder.  I'm assuming that the gas that fills this cylinder won't
be explosive. 

At 16:21 8/26/98 -0400, Francis J. Stenger wrote:

>Good lord, Scott!  Be careful! - shades of the CF explosion.

Indeed, Frank.  Fortunately the calorimetry enclosure forms a sort of
bunker for the cell to explode harmlessly in.

At 13:43 8/26/98 -0700, mrand access wrote:

>Try to plumb
>the gas thru a water bubbler "backfire container"  then to the recombiner
>chamber and your other stages down stream.

We're working on just such a thing. Thanks, Michael.

At 13:50 8/26/98 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:

>If you do succeed at getting nuclear reactions of any kind whatever to
>manifest, then the bang could come very fast and due to a very much larger
>energy production inside of the W itself.

Wow! a nuclear explosion in our lab. The landlord already thinks we're
weird...that would just tear it!.  I do appreciate your comments and safety
suggestions, Ross.

At 10:23 8/26/98 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote:

>Blowin' stuff up. Now that's science!

>Is it correct then to state then that the pout as heat is pretty close to
>pin, but then you also get a bunch of gas that blows stuff up? 

Not quite.  In order to get Pout to be real close to Pin we have to add to
Pout  a correction based upon an assumed conversion of electrical energy to
the potential energy of H2 and O2 gases.  In other words, the gas that blew
up today is stuff that is already being counted in our calorimetry...we
didn't get far enough to see whether or not the extra gas that we observe
during incandescence also has caloric value.

At 16:21 8/26/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Whoa! How do you know it is stoichiometric? Maybe you have extra hydrogen
>because the oxygen is back in the cell in a tungsten compound or something.

OK, I just made that assumption.  The explosion occurred during the warm-up
phase of the run when "ordinary" electrolysis is occurring in the cell.
The gas may well not be stoichiometric..but it was sufficiently close  to
support explosive combustion rates.

>The calorimeter configuration is not clear to me. I hope you are measuring
the
>heat from the recombiner chamber.  

Presently, only the cell and capacitor are inside the calorimeter.  A
rubber tube conveys all gases out of the cell and through the insulation
walls of the calorimeter.  Thus we are not recovering the heat energy from
the escaping H2 and O2.  On the various plots we have presented, we have
corrected the Pout readings by adding to them an amount equal to 1.48*I
which, if ordinary electrolysis is occurring in the cell, will correctly
compensate for the lost caloric value of the escaping gases.  Obviously
ordinary electrolysis is not occurring in the cell during the incandescent
phase of the runs but then the  current is only about 1 amp.  The
correction then only amounts to 1.5 watts, a very small, nearly
insignificant part of the 100+ watt total input power.

If we can get a robust recombiner design worked out, we'll put that inside
the calorimeter as well.

Things are all back together now.

Interestingly, even the W rod got broken into 3 pieces during the explosion.

Tomorrow we'll have another go at this recombining business, with various
protective measures in place.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 14:52:29 1998
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At 01:50 PM 8/26/98 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
>  Though
>with glass you aren't going to build up that much pressure, just keep your
>glasses AND face shields on during runs.
>
>BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :
>
>If you do succeed at getting nuclear reactions of any kind whatever to
>manifest, then the bang could come very fast and due to a very much larger
>energy production inside of the W itself.  In that case, the energy density
>could build up to much higher values due to the mechanical integrity of the
>metal as compared to the glass.
>
>The build up could occur in millionths of a second, ie, read the passages
>about the first fission reactor again where the entire place lit up breifly
>when the control rod was pulled out too far.
>
>The point being, a nuclear explosion could lead to very much greater energy
>disipation in a very short time frame.  I would get some steel 1/4 inch
>thick and or some one inch polycarbonate for a blast shield if at all
>possible.  I think that is what they put in over at SRI.
>
>ie, for the most part, people on vortex are playing around with this or
>that, and no one has protection against explosions.  Basically, everyone
>assumes this stuff is benign, or that it just isn't even nuclear.  If you
>assume it is nuclear, then you have a tiger by the tail, and if it decides
>to smack you one it won't take but a few millionths of a second to do so.
>Last I checked, our reflexes aren't that fast.
>
>Be careful.  
>
>I hope to begin some research soon, but the first thing I plan to construct
>is a steel blast enclosure with a video camera for viewing.  
>
>When they observe explosions for real, what they do is to photograph the
>thing using a mirror that looks around the corner of the blast shield toward
>the explosion.  That way, even if things go boom, the camera is still ok.
>The mirror is schrapnel, but that costs less to replace.
>
>A W wire blowing up under water is probably fairly safe over all.  the water
>will damp the schrapnel of the W explosion.  But the shock would explode the
>container instantly.  Check out the effect of firing a bullet through a
>container full of water.  The exit explodes due to the shock.  For you, the
>shock will be internal and the explosion will take place in all directions
>if you succeed.  And the fact that you are not trying to fail, sort of
>implies you ought to protect yourself in the event you do succeed.  ie, you
>don't want your tombstone to read, 
>    "He was blown up, but he succeeded"     ;-(
>
>Later, Ross Tessien
>
>
>

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
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At 04:21 PM 8/26/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Whoa! How do you know it is stoichiometric? Maybe you have extra hydrogen
>because the oxygen is back in the cell in a tungsten compound or something.
>You will have let the gas build up I guess, or use the bubbler-flowmeter to
>see if any unrecombined gas is left over in the recombiner chamber. Maybe
>extra hydrogen caused the flame? Maybe it will leave the recombiner cell
>unburned, and you will underestimate output. Ugh, complicated.

   Actually, as reported, it almost certainly is not stoichiometric. In
fact, in the recombiner, the mix was not explosive, probably because the
recombiner kept the mix out of the explosive range.  Of course when the
flame travelled up the tube, it apparrently hit a richer/leaner mix that
was explosive, and ka-boom!

   Solutions are: 1) Up the amount of catalyst in the recombiner, to keep
the mix from getting explosive.  2) Put several screens in the path of the
gas to prevent the flame from travelling through the tube.  3) Bubble the
gas through water to prevent the backfire. 4) Two or more of the above. (My
choice.)

   More complex, but how does the amount of gas evolved in previous runs
compare to the energy deficit you have been showing?  Assuming a
stoichiometric  ratio and all H2 should give you some idea of where you stand.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 15:17:30 1998
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Several years ago, in trying to use recombiners in Fleischman-Pons
experiments, I had explosions (small scale runs). To prevent the explosions
I placed a bundle of stainless steel wire into the gas outlet tube followed
by the recombiner.  The D2O vapor was then condensed and sent back to the
electrolysis cell.  No more explosions.  However these were runs which
produced D2 and O2 at much lower rates than what you are doing.

Ed Strojny

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At 18:12 8/26/98 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote:

>   More complex, but how does the amount of gas evolved in previous runs
>compare to the energy deficit you have been showing?

It's in the ball park.  During the 10 minutes that incandescence lasted in
Run 7, we were seeing about 1cc/sec "excess gas" from the cell.  That's
about 600 cc of extra gas.  If it was all H2 and O2 in stoichiometric
ratio, it would be worth about 2400 joules.  Our energy shortfall in Run 7
was about 3800 joules.  Remember that the total E in Run 7 was about
160,000 joules so a 1% error, all we could ever hope to achieve on this
measurement, is 1600 joules.

Both you and Ed suggested metal flame arrestors.  I like this approach and
have constructed a nice long one which consists of fine Cu screen rolled up
tight and stuffed into a glass tube.  The flame would have to travel about
3" through the tortures of this screen in order to explode the cell again.
No way, right?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 15:48:45 1998
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Subject: Re: Run 8 explodes!
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>Several years ago, in trying to use recombiners in Fleischman-Pons
>experiments, I had explosions (small scale runs). To prevent the explosions
>I placed a bundle of stainless steel wire into the gas outlet tube followed
>by the recombiner. 

Stainless steel wool of heavy mesh will provide a lot of **cooling** surface
area to keep the temp below flash.  that tends to damp out any flames that
try to propogate.

Don't use regular steel wool though because it can burn when exposed to the
O2!  That is how acetylene torches cut.  They get the steel hot enough, and
then you zap it with extra O2 to burn your way through the steel due to the
carbon content.  Probably your O2 content isn't that high though, but then
you don't want an additional unknown heat source to mess up calorimetry either.


Ross Tessien



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Hi Scott,

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: Run 8 explodes!


>At 10:30 8/26/98 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote:
>
>>Presumably that was a flexible bladder or similar expandable accumulator,
>>right?
>
>No, it's a 500 ml glass graduated cylinder...same strategy as before just a
>larger cylinder.  I'm assuming that the gas that fills this cylinder won't
>be explosive.
[snip]

Yes, a flexible "soft structure" accumulator would be safer.

The electrolyser original gas (plasma during incandescence?) properties
could change after passing through your Pd-coated alumina catalyst pellets
recombiner.  Different gas and plasma mixtures makes reaction events
complicated.

Also, if the gas still gets hot at the recombine stage and ignites, glass
structures up and down stream could be affected.

Regards,   Michael Randall



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From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Run 8 explodes!
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>Both you and Ed suggested metal flame arrestors.  I like this approach and
>have constructed a nice long one which consists of fine Cu screen rolled up
>tight and stuffed into a glass tube.  The flame would have to travel about
>3" through the tortures of this screen in order to explode the cell again.
>No way, right?

With Cu you may have some oxydation issues to deal with.  Stainless steel is
higher temp before corrosion, and they sell stainless steel wool.  The Cu
does have a high heat transfer rate though, and that should keep any Temp.
surges damped out.  

Having a large surface area to cool any flame is the key to damping out the
flame front and preventing spread up stream.

Ross Tessien

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 18:06:13 1998
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Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:11:17 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Run 8 explodes!
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
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At 04:40 PM 8/26/98 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
>With Cu you may have some oxydation issues to deal with.  Stainless steel is
>higher temp before corrosion, and they sell stainless steel wool.  The Cu
>does have a high heat transfer rate though, and that should keep any Temp.
>surges damped out.  
 
    The copper will oxidize, but pretty slowly.  However, if we are right
about the gas mix, any copper oxide will be reduced by the hydrogen.  Same
with steel wool stainless or not.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 18:07:14 1998
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Subject: Re: Run 8 explodes!
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At 05:43 PM 8/26/98 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>  The flame would have to travel about
>3" through the tortures of this screen in order to explode the cell again.
>No way, right?
 
   Wrong.  H2 + O2 in an explosive mix can be set off by one (1) UV photon,
if the gas is wet.  You apparently have wet explosive gas coming off the
arc.  So your flame arrestor will reduce substantially the probability of
an explosion, but if you want to reduce it to zero either up the amount of
catalyst, or lower the rate of gas production.  If you keep the pressure in
the aparatus low enough, you probably won't have to worry.

   Hmmm.  Assume you start with air in the apparatus.  Then if you produce
more H2 than O2, you might not be able to avoid an explosive mix early on.
Flushing with nitrogen would be best, but flushing with CO2 is probably
much simpler.  Just assemble with a small amount of dry ice strategically
located.  Of course, if you like KISS, design it to be assembled full of
the buffered water, and allow the evolving gas to push it into an overflow
tank.  Of course, that is not the design you have...

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 18:23:25 1998
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Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:12:37 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: BLP inaction
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  Recalling BLP's plan for a self sustaining reactor in the near future I
checked their web page at:

http://www.blacklightpower.com/

and found that the news had not been updated since 12/8/97.  I would guess
that some of the investors that put up that $10 million are wondering what
is going on now.  I would think that there should have been some more news
by now.  Mabey the company leaders decided to take the $10 million and
continue their development program in another country which does not have
very good internet access and they cannot update the web page.

Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 18:36:24 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: BLP inaction
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 01:35:31 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:12:37 -0400, Larry Wharton wrote:

>  Recalling BLP's plan for a self sustaining reactor in the near future I
>checked their web page at:
>
>http://www.blacklightpower.com/
>
>and found that the news had not been updated since 12/8/97.  I would guess
>that some of the investors that put up that $10 million are wondering what
>is going on now.  I would think that there should have been some more news
>by now.  Mabey the company leaders decided to take the $10 million and
>continue their development program in another country which does not have
>very good internet access and they cannot update the web page.
[snip]
Even though this made me laugh, I think the more likely scenario is
that the investors are being kept up to date, but not the general
public.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 18:51:53 1998
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	 <mica world.std.com>,
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Subject: 2nd notice: VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED!... Countdown to Disclosure.....10....9....
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 20:54:19 -0500
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(This message is to notify you that 9 weeks remain until full disclosure of our discoveries.  Though no significant updates to our web site have been made since last week, several updates are planned in the near future.)
 

Greetings to all new energy pioneers, 

The time has come to make an announcement that many of you have been waiting to hear for a great many years. Full disclosure will not take place until 10 weeks have passed from the original date this announcement was posted (Aug 19, 1998). This is the SEC
OND WEEK of this message, written to prepare each of you for our final and complete disclosure and to make a final appeal to potential financial partners. As the days progress, periodic updates will be added to this web site and notice of these updates wi
ll be sent out.

ANNOUNCING...
The secrets of thermodynamic phenomenon known as the "vortex" have been discovered, its mysteries have been solved and the technology that will utilize it to produce useable amounts of energy has been identified.

For details, visit our new web site created for this announcement: http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 18:57:41 1998
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Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:49:57 -0400
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Organization: DarkNet Online/Digital Fusion
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Subject: Re: 2nd notice: VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED!... Countdown to Disclosure.....10....9....
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Are you going to do this every week??

ttyl
-Steve
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     darklord darknet.net | ICQ: 5113616    
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Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 19:06:47 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From:	Steve [SMTP:darklord darknet.net]
Sent:	Wednesday, August 26, 1998 8:50 PM
To:	ZPE
Cc:	'vortex-l eskimo.com'; 'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'; 'keelynet@dallastexas.net'
Subject:	Re: 2nd notice: VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED!... Countdown to Disclosure.....10....9....

Are you going to do this every week??

ttyl
-Steve
-- 
     darklord darknet.net | ICQ: 5113616    
   DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net
Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion

Yes.

Best Wishes,
ZPE
http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe

 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 19:47:54 1998
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August 2-. 1998

Back in 1815 Humphrey Davey in England invented a miner's safety lamp to
alleviate mine gas explosions ignited by lamps (flame) used by miners for
illumination.
Basically it was a double mesh screen that separated  the lamp flame from the
explosive methane gas mix..  The design idea is  righly being proposed now in the
experiment.
The safety lamp design occurred to me when I saw the front cover of IE with a
fizzing mixed gas oiutput of an arcing cell. It was the only way I could see for
burning the explosive gas.. Glad to see nobody hurt when the catalytic recombiner
got so hot it itgnited (exploded) the rest of the gas. down to the cell.

-ak-



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Larry Wharton wrote:


>  Recalling BLP's plan for a self sustaining reactor in the near future I
>checked their web page at:
>
>http://www.blacklightpower.com/
>
>and found that the news had not been updated since 12/8/97.  I would guess
>that some of the investors that put up that $10 million are wondering what
>is going on now.  I would think that there should have been some more news
>by now.  Mabey the company leaders decided to take the $10 million and
>continue their development program in another country which does not have
>very good internet access and they cannot update the web page.
>
>Lawrence E. Wharton
>NASA/GSFC code 913
>Greenbelt MD 20771
>(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov


According to a conversation I had with John Farrell a while back, they are
on track building a rather complex, well-instrumented, multi-kilowatt
reactor test bed. It has three nested chambers, as I recall. John said they
had good people doing the right moves. This isn't going to be easy, and if
it goes, they will on track for a scale up. I assume they keep their
investors informed and have no reason to update the Web pages. All the
theory and preliminary supporting data are there for study. The critical EUV
measurement is a difficult bit of instrumentation requiring a specialist who
is, I believe, on staff.

No need to jump to conclusions. Just wait patiently.

Mike Carrell



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 21:36:52 1998
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Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:29:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Run 8 explodes!
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Scott Little wrote:

 Both you and Ed suggested metal flame arrestors.  I like this 
 approach and have constructed a nice long one which consists of 
 fine Cu screen rolled up tight and stuffed into a glass tube.  
 The flame would have to travel about 3" [75 mm!] through the 
 tortures of this screen in order to explode the cell again.
 No way, right?

I hope not, but I don't know. My brief experience with H2 flames some
30 years ago, when I was young and adventurous, is that they will get
past simple flame arrestors. Also, many people here don't seem to know
that H2 burns over an extremely wide compositional range, very, very
far from stoichiometric.

Therefore, I liked the ater bubbler islolation idea.



==
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 26 23:35:02 1998
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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 02:11:16 -0400
From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Access difficulties
Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
To: Vortex Mail <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Soo,

>> When he attempts to access the web site, or send a "subscribe" email he
gets the message.... "unable to make contact - maybe the site is down"

Any suggestions? <<

Perhaps he is using the wrong vortex address for subscribing.  I believe it
changed a little while ago.  I recently unsubscribed and re-subscribed
recently over a 4-week holiday with no trouble.

He should use <vortex-l-request eskimo.com>

Regards,  Norman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 02:29:56 1998
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Skills required to amass cash levels and those required to harmonize many
design parameters to create a useful product seem to me to be at opposite
ends of the human condition. Until the wealthy become technically competent
and the technical become wealth competent, we will mistakenly interpret each
other's actions as evil in intent. Investors want a perfect and reliable
device with all the bugs worked out. Technocrats enjoy the design process
and investigation of scientific discovery. Perhaps the financially oriented
don't realize just how difficult it is to bring a design to perfection.
Perhaps the technically oriented don't realize that the cyclic environment
effects of higher dimensional design makes the development task magnitudes
more difficult. So when the inventor get's a successful event from his
design, he's worked so hard to get there he prematurely announces his work.
The investor is interested to help out. The inventor says great but when
higher dimensional effects aren't the same and the device behaves
unpredictably at that important demo, the investor thinks fraud. The
inventor knows sooner or later better understanding of the technology will
lead to refinement of the design. The investor doesn't want to deal with
this trial and error R&D stage. The inventor will be so burned out if he has
to refine his design with his own resources that he will want what the
investor considers unreasonable. Any comments on this scenario?

I think I saw a book called OU Hydrogen Generation BTW. People with money
might consider buying the book and seeing what it's like to try to put
something together on their own. 



At 04:43 PM 8/26/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>  At 12:01 PM 8/25/98 -0400, Jed wrote:
>
>>That was Meyer's game. I expect that Alan and Swartz inherited
>>this con game from Meyer. They took over the business when
>> he died, and they are trying to squeeze it for what it is worth. 

Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 02:51:21 1998
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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 05:50:20 -0400
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Thanks, Norm and Terry ....I'll pass your suggestion on.

Cheers,
 Soo

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 02:52:31 1998
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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:46:40 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Rothwell is deceptive, inaccurate, and malicious
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Dennis,

We understand what your are saying but the question is, since we all go
through the same trouble as inventors, why would a colleague/collaborator
in the field use that against you? 

Cast the first stone.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 02:56:26 1998
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From: ZPE <zpe pdq.net>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>,
        "'freenrg-l eskimo.com'"
	 <freenrg-l eskimo.com>,
        "'keelynet dallastexas.net'"
	 <keelynet dallastexas.net>
Subject: Countdown to Disclosure...Suggestions?
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 04:58:40 -0500
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
* This will not earn you any friends on this forum, and probably a lot
* of enemies. It reeks too much of SPAM.

Agreed.  Since our only intent is to keep everyone informed of the latest updates, I am open to suggestions as to how to accomplish this.  Since the "theme" of the announcement is "Countdown to Disclosure", our plan was to do just that...countdown, so as 
to insure that no one will miss it when it finally happens.  Maybe we could create a list of people to be notified of updates instead of "bothering" the disinterested.  Unless a better idea is proposed, those interested in being on this list, please respo
nd to me directly.

To those wishing to stay informed of updates, what are your ideas on this?  (Respond to me directly to cut down on mail traffic.)

Thanks.

Best Wishes,
ZPE
http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 03:15:50 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Rothwell is deceptive, inaccurate, and malicious
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Look, Vo,

We understand that fraud destroys people's effort in the field, so we 
want to police (cop) the field. It just that the police are self 
interested. The trouble is when they go beyond their remit of pointing 
out to *other* researcher by the process of peer review in journals 
shortcomings to bringing outsiders in. These outsiders are the general 
public.

Who has the right to smear someone when it comes to matters of science 
when things are not clearly understood yet. What happens by default is 
that the science gets labelled fraudulent, as well as the founder. The 
science gets killed. Out goes the baby and the bathwater.

If someone wants to approach investors, well its always caveat emptor. 
Who are you to police proceedings and sabotage meetings?

At the risk of having the same thrown back at me, mind your own business.
They may well have meant well in doing what they did and 
'professionalising' the field but in the end it is reckoned that they 
have set new energy back in this country by maybe a decade.

Allan respond.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 03:44:08 1998
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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 06:36:07 -0400
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Rothwell is deceptive, inaccurate, and malicious
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At 11:13 AM 8/27/98 +0100, Remi wrote:


>We understand that fraud destroys people's effort in the field, so we 
>want to police (cop) the field. It just that the police are self 
>interested. The trouble is when they go beyond their remit of pointing 
>out to *other* researcher by the process of peer review in journals 
>shortcomings to bringing outsiders in. These outsiders are the general 
>public.  ...........


   Rothwell is not an investor, but a self-appointed
antiscientific prosewriter who attacks scientists and engineers who
dont give him papers to publish, or who publish papers in peer
review journals suggesting better calibration is needed
in these systems.    Jed's is a novel approach
to increasing his glossy mag's circulation, but his stabbing scientists
privately and publically, and his odious attacks against people who
publish references (like Prof Dieter Britz and myself) is 
apparently supported by the highest levels at his publication
Infinite Energy, and are designed to use the INTERNET
to hurt any portion of the field which does not succumb
to his demands or develops calibration techniques.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 04:01:52 1998
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Message-ID: <35E53A6C.5099CE92 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:52:28 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
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ZPE wrote:
[snip]

Yes,

This list is an discussion / reseach forum. If you don't supply anything to discuss or give any (new) information in your postings, this will not be a proper usage of this list. I think there other ways to tell people that your mission is on the way and k
eep the interest on.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 04:11:01 1998
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At 05:29 AM 8/27/98 +0000, Dennis wrote:
>Skills required to amass cash levels and those required to harmonize many
>design parameters to create a useful product seem to me to be at opposite
>ends of the human condition. Until the wealthy become technically competent
>and the technical become wealth competent, we will mistakenly interpret each
>other's actions as evil in intent. Investors want a perfect and reliable
>device with all the bugs worked out. Technocrats enjoy the design process
>and investigation of scientific discovery. Perhaps the financially oriented
>don't realize just how difficult it is to bring a design to perfection.
>Perhaps the technically oriented don't realize that the cyclic environment
>effects of higher dimensional design makes the development task magnitudes
>more difficult. So when the inventor get's a successful event from his
>design, he's worked so hard to get there he prematurely announces his work.
>The investor is interested to help out. The inventor says great but when
>higher dimensional effects aren't the same and the device behaves
>unpredictably at that important demo, the investor thinks fraud. The
>inventor knows sooner or later better understanding of the technology will
>lead to refinement of the design. The investor doesn't want to deal with
>this trial and error R&D stage. The inventor will be so burned out if he has
>to refine his design with his own resources that he will want what the
>investor considers unreasonable. Any comments on this scenario?
>
>I think I saw a book called OU Hydrogen Generation BTW. People with money
>might consider buying the book and seeing what it's like to try to put
>something together on their own. 




    All good points, BUT they do not explain Jed's penchant
to confabulate, and lie, knowingly, such as when he wrote:

>>>That was Meyer's game. I expect that Alan and Swartz inherited
>>>this con game from Meyer. They took over the business when
>>> he died, and they are trying to squeeze it for what it is worth. 



   Jed Rothwell hurts this field, as he HAS hurt this field, by his attacking
Fleischmann to George, Oriani to Allan, and Britz to Swartz.  Anyone who
actually
WORKS to explore the phenomena becomes his potential target, unless they are
part of his company or magazine.   IMO Jed Rothwell has become a "flying pig"
who by his fraud, lying, deception, and BS such as the above, has
chosen to hurt this field more than Dick Blue (whom he attacks)
or ANY of the reasonable TB-skeptics who at least talk science ever could.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 04:15:04 1998
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Subject: Re: Rothwell is deceptive, inaccurate, and malicious
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On Thu, 27 Aug 1998, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>    Rothwell is not an investor, but a self-appointed
> antiscientific prosewriter who attacks scientists and engineers who
> dont give him papers to publish, or who publish papers in peer
> review journals suggesting better calibration is needed
> in these systems.    Jed's is a novel approach
> to increasing his glossy mag's circulation, but his stabbing scientists
> privately and publically, and his odious attacks against people who
> publish references (like Prof Dieter Britz and myself) is 
> apparently supported by the highest levels at his publication
> Infinite Energy, and are designed to use the INTERNET
> to hurt any portion of the field which does not succumb
> to his demands or develops calibration techniques.
> 

The mystery unfurls....

So,

You must publish with them, disclose to them, experiment with them, seek 
investment with them or else be destroyed by them.

They police (good cop bad cop) the field and say what is legitimate 
science and what isn't. By controlling the field and taking on guilible 
and often distressed inventors they have a captive market. Money coming 
in and investment to use on their whims and sometimes a little bit of 
science to keep up appearences.

One of their well meaning and extremely pleasant footsoliders (no doubt 
under some svengahli like influence) said to me 'join us. X, y and z like 
what you say'. Its a bit like joining the mafia or the freemasons.

It's all to telling, when you uncover a racket, the acqusations fly and 
bodies drop. Have you seen what happens when close mafia families break up?
Usually the honest one wants to go 'legit'.

Bingo!  Nail on the head. Now I understand what's going on between two 
certain people.

Yours with a clear conscience and knowing who really to steer clear of. 
Thinking aloud but not really caring about all this politics, just my 
senses warning me where danger lies.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 04:26:28 1998
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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 98 07:23:44 -0000
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To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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> Rothwell is not an investor, but a self-appointed
>antiscientific prosewriter who attacks scientists and engineers who
>dont give him papers to publish, or who publish papers in peer
>review journals suggesting better calibration is needed
>in these systems.    Jed's is a novel approach
>to increasing his glossy mag's circulation, but his stabbing scientists
>privately and publically, and his odious attacks against people who
>publish references (like Prof Dieter Britz and myself) is 
>apparently supported by the highest levels at his publication
>Infinite Energy, and are designed to use the INTERNET
>to hurt any portion of the field which does not succumb
>to his demands or develops calibration techniques.

This is complete garbage from Dr. Swartz, who should known better but 
apparently doesn't. I think  most readers of Infinite Energy are well 
aware of the quality and integrity of our publication. Actually, a very 
good case can be made that Swartz has hurt the field of cold fusion with 
his insistence that robust flow calorimetry can be fooled in ways that 
are not possible, e.g. for the CETI systems under test. I will have 
nothing further to say on this. I will not debate Dr. Swartz on this 
forum beyond this statement.

Unfortunately, Vortex appears to be developing the charactersitics of spf.


Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

Ph:  603-228-4516
Fax: 603-224-5975

  editor infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 06:20:46 1998
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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:18:50 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Edwin Strojny <estrojny freeway.net>
Subject: Northern Lights
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Early this morning (3:30-3:40 EDT) I watched a fanatastic display of the
northern lights at our location (northern Michigan).  The display consisted
of two phenomena; one was a steady luminescence which consisted of streaks
and cloud-like formations which emanated from the northeast (where the sun
was at this time) and ended in the southwest south of our location. These
luminescences shifted slowly in position and intensity.  The second was a
very broad, luminescence which swept quickly across the sky from the
northeast to the southwest in a fraction of a second. Each of these were
followed by another pulse a fraction of a second later. As many as five of
these pulses occurred before diminishing in intensity and then would start
over again.  Wherever these broad areas of luminescence crossed the steady
luminescent areas these would intensify in luminescence and diminish to
their former intensity. No color displays.

Does anybody have an explanation for two types of luminescence going on at
the same time?

Ed Strojny

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 06:21:32 1998
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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 21:22:40 +0800
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From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Countdown to Disclosure...Suggestions?
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ZPE wrote:

>...Maybe we could create a list of people to be notified of updates
>instead of "bothering" the disinterested.  Unless a better idea is ...
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And to think we have just been lectured on the UNcorrect use of this
word!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 06:42:23 1998
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Message-ID: <35E56F94.1E7AF8AC gold.globalcafe.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:39:52 +0000
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Comments of Dr Martin Fleischmann
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Sorry for recent difficulties that one have been having with one's mail server, now hopefully
resolved.

Mr Beatty,

I refer to your guidelines and Mr Rothwell's continued unreasonable tone of his smear
campaigns which, while obviously intended to debase and pervert, have gone beyond
the point of being actionable.

Quote:

2. This is not the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup; ridicule, debunkery, and
   namecalling between believers and skeptics are forbidden.  The tone
   should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate.

 Excuse this previous message which may be appearing out of sync but I still wish to make for
the useful issues it  raises.

Gentlemen,


Dr Martin Fleischmann is a very conventional scientist and a Fellow of one the most reputable
societies in the West.  He is regarded " a fake, a fraud, a pathological scientist " by the
scientific community and his work " irreproducible, non-scientific " and even today by the
scientific press " an expensive folly costing over $100m ".

Recently, he made statements on BBC radio to the effect that his communication systems were
bugged and interfered with by the intelligence community or various security forces.

This statement is either true of false.

With respect to under-disclosed military implications of Cold Fusion, one would tend to believe
it was true.

Cheap Tritium, novel atomic hydrogen reactions anyone?  Let us place this discussion within a
full political and ethical context.  [Src:John Bockris]

Would we say Dr Fleischmann was a " paranoid crack-pot " ? One might make allowances for his
age, or the personal and professional trauma he suffered.  But in time, he will be recognised
for the courage of his beliefs in his theories of the Quantum Field and his dedication to his
heretical experimental work and his part as a pawn in the game of science being
played by the class of individual we might call the " power brokers " that decide the
technological agenda we live under will be recognised. Only someone who has gone through a
similarly traumatic experience would be able to empathise with him.

One refers to an example of this in the suppression of hydrogen technologies developed by
Lockheed, Pratt & Whitney, NASA, General Motors and others in the '50s and '60s.  Look at the
$250m spent on the CL-400 to develop a clean hydrogen powered jet that flew higher and faster
than any other jets at that time.  45 years later at Kyoto, no emission agreements were
considered on hydrocarbon fueled vehicles. Hydrogen is safer than Jet A as an aviation fuel
[src:FAA], there are no technical obstacles [src: CEC], it competes economically at American
pump to pump prices with current technology producing it [src:Bockris and Veziroglu].

We had the technical solution to an extremely pressing environmental problem 45 years ago.  Who
decided the agenda?  Who co-ordinates the nonsense published about it ?  How far are we away
from the solution? Dr Fleischmann, whose opinion on the matter one might accept, states that
the ambition of Cold Fusion is to replace the combustor within
power generation systems with something more sophisticated and more expensive.  One would have
to question why, if a cheap and more immediate retro-fit alternative existed.  Gas powered
electrical generators being little more than jets bolted to the ground, it might also have been
possible to convert them to hydrogen if a sufficiently cheap means of production was brought to
the market.

Who decides the future technological agenda?

Admiral Sir Anthony Griffin, as ex-Controller of the Royal Navy, might be presumed to know
something about National Security.  On engagement with new energy and new hydrogen
technologies, he informed me to expect all my communications to come under the scrutiny of
various security divisions both native and foreign.

He recounted an example whilst coordinating a contract with Mr Stanley Meyer and Perkins
Diesels.  Only he and Mr Meyer had discussed the matter by telephone but within days a Middle
Eastern delegation appeared at Perkins telling them if they considered this seriously they
would never do business again in the Middle East.  This is the Admiral recounting the story.

This is either true or false.

Would we say he was a " paranoid old crackpot ", " a fake and a fraud " or " a pathological
warmonger " ?  Would we have to make allowances for his experiences in WWII, the South-East
Asia campaign, his time in the MOD, his expertise in marine and hydrogen technologies, their
industrial processes and the politics of nationally and internationally sensitive
issues?

We look at Mr Stanley Meyer's experience.  Professional career in the US Army, Battelle
Foundation, NASA contract, directorship of multi-million dollar corporations, a self-made
millionaire.   We address the matter of Cold Fusion patents held under international patent
treaty agreements established in the early '80s, the National Security Act limitations on
public exposure and FBI involvements in early demonstrations filmed by the BBC.   Dr Mallove
and Mr Rothwell, you saw the stickers on his windows and doors when you went to Ohio, were they
genuine or not?  I experienced the two car police convoy.

Are these above statements substantiated or not?

But fortunately, Mr Meyer is in your opinion, a " crack-pot paranoid " and a Charismatic
Christian to boot.  Never present to defend himself and no longer with us whilst you weaved
your smear campaign on limited and prejudicial information supplied by unamed individuals.  And
as we know, Christians could not possibly do real science.

Mr Horwood, you never even visited him in Ohio and yet still found yourself able to
discriminate against Mr Meyer on the basis of your inability to replicate his work.  Doggedly,
despite having little knowledge of the law and without having taken professional advice, you
insist that it is not necessary to examine court *proceedings* only court *findings*; that
there has never been a miscarriage of justice in a county court; that county courts are
establishments of sufficient status to judge important scientific developments; and that *all*
of science plays by " moot " rules that only exist stressed in your mind.

Are you telling me you had no egotistical involvement in " exposing [Meyer] as a fraud " as you
wrote to a senior research scientist with ministerial influence, even before the case was
completed.

Many people would consider that showed " malice aforethought " as they say in law.

Mr Rothwell, your public " boasting " at this " hilarious " sabotage of an event at the House
of Lords for another Cold Fusion pioneer outside of your camp, that caused numerous worthy
individuals, not to say the family of the recently deceased Admiral, loss, inconvenience and
upset; would suggest to many thoughtful individuals deliberate malice on your
part.  You would even agree to this in publication.

Who are you to judge another? What is your status within the scientific community that this man
must bow to you?  What advantage would he have gained from it?  Look at how you carry on your
affairs, look at the obfuscation and exaggerations, the slanders and libels, the " bartalk "
you empty to make your points.  Why should Mr Meyer have been interested
in fuelling your sense of egotistical aggrandisement or submitting to your " threats,
confrontations and challenges ", videoed for posterity or not?

Perhaps if you had offered Mr Meyer the chance for a reasonable discussion he would have been
more co-operative, as many British investigors have found.  It is not hard to imagine that you
deliberately wound him up with your bluntness to the point of distraction to achieve the
desired effect.

You claim that he carried a gun at all times, was a violent and unstable criminal [
unsubstantiated as yet] and defrauded hundreds of investors - who in fact turn out to be
*purchasers* of his video of TV footage of his water fuel cell running and manual.  Did you
ever look over or discuss contracting with him or take legal advice on these matters? Your
reluctance to come to law speaks much about your modus operandi. How many investors were
there?  How many have you spoken to?  Perhaps they too only exist in your mind?  On the basis
of his contracting, I would say that *legally*, there were no " investors ".  Caveat Emptor.

Gentlemen, at law, the *mens rea* alone, and not merely the *acteus rea*, of incitement or
conspiracy to cause willful damage to another party or to deny them the right to which they are
entitled is sufficient to substantiate the crime.  The intent, not the act alone is sufficient
to find such parties guilty.  The act might seem innocent enough.  And it will surely be
possible to place a charge of conspiracy against Infinite Energy with respect to its
extraordinary handling of the Meyer
Case.

Let us see now how brave Mr Rothwell is, to deal with a living person not a dead one.  Let us
see if he will step within the circle of law or continue to lurk within the grey shadows of
what would appear to be bluster and deceit.  Let him throw his affairs open; let the public see
what lies behind what most people would consider to be " bully boy tactics " and unjustifiable
provocation; because one now has to presume that it it was his initiative, his intention, to
destroy Mr Stanley Meyer for whatever his purpose was.

Let us see these files and videos Ms Jeane Manning refers to and Infinite Energy still holds.

Do you realise what a positive demonstration will do to your reputation, Mr Rothwell? Is that
why you continue to refuse to subject yourself to the guidance of a professional body? Act
within standard business formalities. Ridiculously twist and pervert any facts?

I would still like to have made clear accurate pathology of the sabotage of the House of Lords
seminar?

Dr Mallove, as editor-in-chief of Infinite Energy and the " Worlds Leading Expert in Free
Energy " [src: The Art Bell Show], you have been very silent on these matters. Please be open
to a fair examination of your part in all these unsavoury details.

What is the truth in all this?

An accurate reveiw of your missives to follow.

Sincerely,

John Allan
Energy Solutions, London
energy gold.globalcafe.co.uk









From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 07:12:36 1998
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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:00:21 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Rothwell is deceptive, inaccurate, and malicious
In-Reply-To: <199808271119.HAA06310 mercury.mv.net>
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At 07:23 AM 8/27/98 -0000, Gene wrote:
>>Actually, a very 
>good case can be made that Swartz has hurt the field of cold fusion with 
>his insistence that robust flow calorimetry can be fooled in ways that 
>are not possible, e.g. for the CETI systems under test


  Wrong, Gene:


   The failure of some systems to not recontruct a input
test pulse demonstrates their failure to reproduce that pulse.
   This has NOT hurt the field.

   1) Claiming "kilowatts" which are 0.2-1.3 watts calibrated
has hurt the field.

   2) Encouraging Jed Rothwell to lie has hurt the field.


   Dr. Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 07:12:59 1998
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com, JedRothwell <72240.1256@compuserve.com>,
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        mica world.std.com
Subject: Mr Rothwell's response
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Subject: No escrow account
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:00:33 -0400


Cut the bullshit, Allan. You know as well as I do that you do not have a
machine, and you have no intention of delivering one. I am not going to
screw around opening escrow accounts to prolong this farce.

I said I will wire transfer the money to your account after my agent
determines that the machine works. You do not need any references from
me for this process. You do not even need to know who I am or where I
live. You give me the account number (which is not secret information),
the bank clerk here presses a button, and Presto! -- the money shows up
in your account. You call your bank, they confirm the money has arrived,
we keep the machine and you go home.

However . . . with U.S. to U.K. wire transfers, it might take a day or
two for the money to arrive. If you live a considerable distance from my
agent and you would be inconvenienced waiting around, perhaps we can
arrange to pay you in cash. I trust you will accept legal tender. Let us
not worry about this for now. You give me a delivery date and I will
start making arrangements. You should realize that the tests might take
a few days.  If you feel you can trust my agent, and you will accept a
receipt for your property, you might find it more convenient to leave
the machine with the agent while the tests are underway. It is up to
you.

We will require a written guarantee from you that the machine is your
property and you are selling it to us free and clear. There may be a few
other minor details, but I'll work them out in plenty of time. You will
leave the arrangements, terms and conditions to me, because I am the
customer as I said, so I get to call the shots. If you do not like my
terms you can take your business elsewhere. You will find millions of
people willing to pay $10,000 for this machine.

Please do not tell me you fear I will pull out at the last minute and
refuse to pay, so you cannot proceed without the assurance of an escrow
account. That is damn nonsense. I repeat, if the machine is real and I
renege at the lastminute, you can easily find a million other customers
to replace me. Indeed, many will pay more than $10,000. But, you offered
it to me first, so you should sell it to me now and tell your other
customers to wait in line.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 07:17:07 1998
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"Unfortunately, Vortex appears to be developing 
the charactersitics of spf."
Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief


   This is because Infinite Energy has supported attacks
on the living and dead who research in the field,
and also supports ubiquitous frothing against those who publish
calibration techniques.  This is demonstrated by Dr. Mallove's post
which evades the issues, just to attack some more.

   Mr. Rothwells rumors (lies) all, are now propagated worldwide,
as Mr. Rothwell and Dr. Mallove have planned, and encouraged.
 
    Dr. Mitchell Swartz





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 08:24:11 1998
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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 16:53:49 +0000
From: democracy gold.globalcafe.co.uk (Conference Organisers)
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Subject: Mr Rothwell, " You are lying through your teeth, Mr. Allan." 
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Mr Rothwell,

With regards to one's " little gem ",

The two offers still stand as stated if you are willing to observe
reasonable business protocols.

In addition, one challenges your statement that current state of art
electrolysis is only 60% and so a further offer is made to demonstrate a
commercial unit operating at singificantly higher rates.  One reports
experimental results at up to 115% from reputable scientific European
research institutes.

Consequent to your extravagant and continued unaccountable smear
campaigns,  formal business protocol remains.

Ecrow account and references.

You appear be refusing to answer mone's reasonably posted questions.

One notes Dr Mallove's coments on The Art Bells Show that the term "
Cold Fusion " now applies to other phenonenon such a Stanley Meyer's
Water Fuel Cell.

• Was this democratically decided by the effected scientific community
or have Infinite Energy a monopoly on the term Cold Fusion as a
marketing by-line?

One raises the issue of the dangers in popular usage of classical
scientific terms such as zero point energy, free energy and now Cold
Fusion.

Thank you to Mr Robin van Spaandonk for his reasonable and worthy
statement previously made impossible under the prevailing atmosphere of
perverting intimidation and tyranny.

" Here you make the assumption that the output gas is only a mixture of
hydrogen and oxygen. If it should contain something else (e.g. hydrinos)
as well, then calculations of its value as a fuel may be underrated. "

Quite right. Mr Meyer never claimed " over-unity ", what ever that might
mean.  He did however state that the values of the water had changed and
its energetic levels were reduced by processing in the Water Fuel Cell.

• Given the front page attention given to Dr Randell Mills' practical
experimentation and novel theory of hydrinos, does one not have to
re-address the Meyer Question?

Against Dr Mills claims of 100,000 miles to the tank of water, ( and in
fact Dr Mallove claim of " AA battery powered fuel cells powering 4
tonnes automobles " [ Src: The Art Bells Show] Meyer and one's own
claims would seem rather modest.

Other  questions arise:

• Why should any scientist be required morally, ethically or
profesionally to make demonstrations of the likes of Mr Rothwell and
indead Infinite Energy?

• What are the reasons behind and the full financial nature of Mr
Rothwell's involvement with Infinite Energy?

One wonders how an Editor-in-Chief can allow himself to support such
behaviour.  In fact, one wonders if there has inded been a full
representation of the financial accountability behind said magazine
given that finacial support has ben raised on a consistent tide of
exaggerated and unsupportable claims.

At what point does that cross over to become a wittingly fraudulent
operation that is solely intended to support individuals who cannot find
gainful employment elsewhre in the scientific community?  *Not my
opinion* but a reasonably ethical issue to raise. Individuals usually
accuse others of doing what they themselves are guilty off. An useful
assumption raised by the Scientologists as Dr Puthoff might corroborate.

Regards,

John Allan
energy gold.globalcafe.co.uk

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 09:58:51 1998
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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:54:44 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Rothwell is . . . malicious
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To: Vortex

I cannot fit the full title of this charming thread: "Rothwell is deceptive,
inaccurate, and malicious." I must say this is the first time I have been
accused to being "deceptive." That's a laugh. People say I am outspoken,
impolitic, much too direct, the kind of person who would casually tell little
old lady on her birthday, "gee, you look like death warmed over!" . . .
anything but deceptive. God alone knows whether I am accurate. Malicious,
yes! Gleefully malicious. I bite back. I love a good fight!

Anyway, Remi Cornwall writes:

     The mystery unfurls....

     So,

     You must publish with them, disclose to them, experiment with them, seek
     investment with them or else be destroyed by them.

That's preposterous Remi. Look at the facts! Hundreds of people work on
cold fusion and o-u systems. How could we "experiment with" more than two or
three of them per year? We have no room, we have no time. Ditto investments.
Thousands of people want investment money, and we think many deserve it. But
we have barely enough for ourselves. You are saying we *want* people to seek
investment with us?!? What for? So we can turn them away empty handed? Ditto
publishing and disclosing. Our magazine is limited to 80 pages. We cannot even
print the material submitted now. We do not have time to read through it,
understand it, edit it. There is enough good material in this field to fill
ten magazines.

The idea that we are trying to monopolize this field is absurd.


     Bingo!  Nail on the head. Now I understand what's going on between two
     certain people.

     Yours with a clear conscience and knowing who really to steer clear of.
     Thinking aloud but not really caring about all this politics, just my
     senses warning me where danger lies.

Your senses plus $1.50 will get you ride on the Atlanta subway. Instead of
thinking aloud and trying to use ESP to sort out the arguments here, you
should read scientific papers and learn the facts. You will see who is telling
the truth. I have given you the names of genuine, living CF scientists. Allan
and Swartz have given you NOTHING. Not one name, not one paper, not a single
number, formula or datum from a real experiment. They have no scientific
evidence for their claims, although they say that loads of people have seen
the Meyer effect, and they boldly offered to sell me a machine. Go ahead, ask
for hard facts, names, dates, data. They have nothing! Their only response is
to attack me, because I dare to question them and I disclose the sordid
history of the Meyer scam. Yet your intuition tells you they are right and I
am the bad guy. I'm trying to stir up trouble, am I? Well, before you get
involved with these people or lend them more public support, find out what
happened to others who trusted their intuition with Meyer. They lost a
fortune. They sued Meyer and won in court, but they never recovered a penny.
You want trouble? You want to lose thousands of dollars and ruin your
marriage? Invest in the Meyer-ites. Don't ask for due-diligence proof of
their claims; they have none. Don't act like a rational investor. Just kiss
your money goodbye.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 09:58:54 1998
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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:54:55 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: No Sale! Allan bugs out
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
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To: Vortex

Last week I accepted Allan's offer to "commission" a Meyer machine. I offered
him $10,000 for it. I said I would wire transfer the money as soon as we
determine the gadget works. In a comical exchange of e-mail, he scrambled to
come up with an excuse to back out of the deal. Here is brief summary:


Allan said we must have a professional body mediate the transaction, or
collaboration as he called it.

I said no dice, I'll judge it myself. I am the customer. This is no
collaboration, it is a purchase. I do not need a professional body to tell me
where to spend my own money. I explained there is no risk for him because if I
refuse the machine he can sell it to someone else. A million people will
clamor for it.


He demanded an escrow account instead of a wire transfer.

I said no, I will not bother setting up an account. I offered cash instead. He
gives us the machine, we give him a suitcase full of legal tender.


He didn't respond to that offer. Instead, he sent me a final excuse and
reneged:

     I only do business with professionals who are capable of acting in a
     businesslike manner.

Ha! That's funny. If I stuck to that rule I would be poverty stricken. In
business you sell to any customer whose money is green, as we say over here.
(What color is U.K. money?) That's good sense and it's the law, too. You have
to post your prices and sell to any customer who meets your terms.

Well, the offer was a farce from the get go. Allan had no machine and no
intention of arranging a commission. He was not serious, but I was, I still
am, and my money is still in the bank. So if you honestly believe you have a
working o-u machine, and you want a suitcase full of cash for it, please feel
free to contact me. I promise I will not eat you alive. Bring your machine to
Gene Mallove or Scott Little and let 'em evaluate it. Lots of people have
brought us machines and tried to demonstrate them. The Case gadget has worked
pretty well so far. The other have failed or worked marginally, like the
Perkins-Pope gadget. Don't worry if your machine fails. We forgive all
mistakes and misfires. If the machine starts to work a week later, please
visit us again. The only thing that upsets me are frauds & fakes: people who
pretend they have a machine and they will arrange a "commission."

I guess this closes the Allan affair.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 10:09:39 1998
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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:00:11 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Rothwell is pejorative, inaccurate, and admittedly malicious
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At 12:54 PM 8/27/98 -0400, Rothwell wrote:
> Malicious, >yes! Gleefully malicious. I bite back. I love a good fight!


   Indeed.

   Jed Rothwell began this episode, as he began his
past attacks.  It is an honor to be included with some of the 
other serious scientists, whom Mr. Rothwell attacks.


       ========================================


>You will see who is telling
>the truth. I have given you the names of genuine, living CF scientists. Allan
>and Swartz have given you NOTHING. Not one name, not one paper, not a single
>number, formula or datum from a real experiment. 


   Again, although it is useless info, Mr. Rothwell:

     I do not work with Mr. Allan.  
     I do not work on the Meyer device.   

  Mr. Rothwell acts like a merkin impersonating a writer, and is 
as inaccurate as ever as he again demonstratess his penchant 
for being clueless.


 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 10:20:04 1998
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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 18:15:48 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: No Sale! Allan bugs out
In-Reply-To: <199808271257_MC2-578D-7159 compuserve.com>
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Okay I'm out of order for thinking aloud. You need to cool down too. 
Stand back a bit, we aren't talking machines, deals and the like, I want 
to know if a potnetial approach is being aborted.

Meyer may be scandalised, but is there any truth in what he did? You may 
not like him but the science exists independant of that. Some people seem 
to think there is something to it. Your pronouncements on it are your 
business - we can chose to listen or ignore based on many factors (your 
record, education, business interest etc.).

What you cannot do is to take it into your hands to police the field. 
It's better to have free thinking democracy than reason administered from 
power bases.

Why do I care? Being part of groups is fine until you come up against 
them. Future proofing.


(I don't want to cause any distress, I want to know about these Meyer 
devices)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 10:41:57 1998
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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:35:46 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: 115% effective electrolysis!
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To: Vortex

Mr. Allan addresses us with the third person pronoun:

     In addition, one challenges your statement that current state of art
     electrolysis is only 60% and so a further offer is made to demonstrate a
     commercial unit operating at significantly higher rates.

You mean, one challenges PG&E and the DoE. That's what my message said. Also
one challenges the National Hydrogen Association and the International Journal
of Hydrogen Energy. See the Hydrogen Program Plan FY 1993 - FY 1997, U.S.
Dept. of Energy NREL, p. C4. Also, as I said in the first message, it is 65%.


     One reports experimental results at up to 115% from reputable scientific
     European research institutes.

By golly that's a miracle! They are getting more energy out than they put in.
Naturally the names of these institutes are a deep dark secret. What a pity.
One never knows, but one suspects the scientists at these "institutes"
installed a digital meter upside down and they are reading 18 as 81.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 11:25:48 1998
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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:17:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>, Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: remi bounces....
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	Dear Remi,

	Trying, again, to write you a letter.... you bounce.

	What is the REAL address, please?


			JHS

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 11:45:04 1998
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: remi bounces....
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:49:46 -0400
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Several people have asked for Remi's email address.
For some reason MS Outlook Express and possibly other
software truncates his address incorrectly when
reading it from his emails. The correct address
can be seen by inspection of the full text of the email.
It is:
ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk
-
Email sent to this address was received by Remi.
Regards,
George Holz  - george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 11:47:34 1998
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	Dear Vo.,

	first a bunch of cuts....

On Thu, 27 Aug 1998, Conference Organisers wrote:

	Who are the above?

----------------
state of art
> electrolysis is only 60% 

	How does one measure the 60%... or maybe a better question is how 
does the metric work?   EG:

	so many volts amps in.... and so much H and O out???
-------------

> experimental results at up to 115% from reputable scientific European
> research institutes.
> 

	Again.... 115% of what and how???
> 
------------
 Mr Meyer never claimed " over-unity ", what ever that might
> mean.  He did however state that the values of the water had changed and
> its energetic levels were reduced by processing in the Water Fuel Cell.
> 
	What are 'energetic values of water' ??

	If the energetic values are REDUCED ... isn't that sort of "going 
backward" ??? 

> John Allan
> energy gold.globalcafe.co.uk
> 
> 


	Please put the answers to these questions in as close to layman 
terms as possible, and also please use watts, volts, amps, Joules and so 
forth.... so we can all try to be on the same page....


				Thanks,

	PS:  Questions about water electrolysis are directed to ALL, not 
just vo....

				JHS
				
	

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 12:30:52 1998
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Ed -

Heard on Art Bell two nights ago that some record size globs of solar
particles were on the way and would mess communications and give good
aurora for a while. Don't know about the specific display types, but I saw
similar displays in Alaska a few years back. I don't think they're unusual.
Cool though, huh.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 12:35:51 1998
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Subject: [ON TOPIC] Run 9 exploded, too!
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My apologies for interrupting with something on topic....

Run 9 just exploded in a manner similar to Run 8.  It looks like I should
have paid more heed to the advice of Robert E and Michael S about the
bubbler separating the external recombiner and the cell.  Instead we ran
with only a Cu screen flame arrestor and POW...it blew again.

Rebuilding for the third time went rather fast and we are now starting Run
10 with an all-metal (i.e. strong) in-line bubbler trap between the
external recombiner and the cell.

OK, now back to the program in progress: The Torrent of Trash...



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 12:55:35 1998
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Hi Scott,

It sounds like  the recombiner is still getting hot and igniting the gas.

Is there another way to measure the gas composition?

Regards,   Michael Randall


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 13:10:49 1998
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Scott Little wrote:
> My apologies for interrupting with something on topic....

ROFL    8^)



-- 

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    John E. Steck
      Senior Mechanical Engineer
      Rapid Tooling Applications
      Motorola CE, PCS, Libertyville, IL
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 13:11:42 1998
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Subject: How to avoid energy scams
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To: Vortex

Maybe I should call this Version 1.0. Let's all work on it. This guide is
overdue.

Remi Cornwall steps back from the brink, and writes:

     Stand back a bit, we aren't talking machines, deals and the like, I want
     to know if a potential approach is being aborted.

     Meyer may be scandalised, but is there any truth in what he did? You may
     not like him but the science exists independant of that.

Quite right! That's what I said yesterday. Please read my message carefully.
It was intended for you alone, but I cannot reach you off-line. I said: "That
is not because of the *scientific* validity or apparent absurdity of the
claims. I object to Meyer's actions, not his claims." You are on the right
track and I encourage you to investigate Meyer and report back. Here is some
hard earned advice, based on experience that cost me many thousands of
dollars.

Step 1 is to look for replications at high sigma. This is essential! Get the
reports of these experiments and read them carefully. As far as I know, Meyer
has never been replicated. Many people asked him for the names of scientists
who replicated, but he never disclosed any. You can try asking Allan and
Swartz, but I am afraid they will not respond. In the unlikely event you find
a paper written by someone who claims he replicated, read the paper with the
utmost care and then  call the fellow up and ask follow up questions. Gather
all the information you can lay hands on, including photographs and raw data.
Ask him if you can come and look at the machine, or borrow it.

Step 2 is to test a machine yourself, or have a skilled friend test it.
Naturally, in this case it would be fastest and most convenient if you could
persuade Allan or Swartz to bring their cells to you, or at least allow you to
examine the cells and measure input and output. However, as you have seen,
they will refuse on some ridiculous pretense or other. That leaves you only
one alternative. You must build a cell according to the patent and test it
yourself. PLEASE wear safety glasses and take every reasonable precaution. An
electrochemical cell explosion can kill you. Other dangers can arise. When
Horwood did this experiment for some weeks his power supply blew up. If you
suspect you see o-u performance, or even remarkably effective electrolysis,
try very hard not get excited and deceive yourself.


Here are some things you MUST NOT DO, unless you have tons of money you can
afford to blow a few thousand dollars. These are the ABCs of avoiding fraud.

DO NOT give anyone a down payment for a machine!!! Not a penny. Do not let
anyone tell you he is a representative or agent and he does not make the
rules, and the mysterious scientist with the machine demands money in advance.
Don't let the inventor tell you that he cannot build it without money for
materials. If you feel you absolutely must help, give him the materials, not
the money, and have him build the machine in your lab under your watchful eye.

NEVER hand over the money until the machine is fully tested, verified, and
permanently in your possession under lock and key. NEVER, EVER! No wire
transfer, no cash in your house, no unsigned checks in escrow, no safe deposit
boxes. No envelopes of cash held by a trusted third party. These are
variations on the classic bait-and-switch scam. If he wants cash, then after
full verification, after the machine has run 24 hours, or a week, or whatever
you decide is necessary, you lock the machine in your lab with your assistant,
you go to the bank together with the inventor, withdraw the money and hand it
to him then and there.

(If you do not know what a bait-and-switch scam is, and you know nothing about
other common scams, frauds, con games, pyramid schemes, accounting tricks,
watered stock, short squeeze setups, extortion techniques and stuff like that,
for goodness sake learn. I don't know where . . . Maybe they have books in the
library. Ask a bunco squad policeman. Read the computer exchange networks on
Internet, where scam artists cruise and "sell" nonexistent equipment.)

Do not get involved in convoluted business arrangements or contract
negotiations. Never allow small print. Keep the transaction dead simple. You
get the machine, Mr. Scientist gets the money. End of story.

Remain in control at all times. It is your money, you are the customer, you
get to decide everything. The customer is king. However, you should listen to
reasonable requests and be prepared to negotiate a little.

Consult your attorney before the transaction if you feel any sense of unease.
Have him review the contract, even if it is only three paragraphs long. It
shouldn't be any longer than that, in my opinion.

Never rush the negotiations. If he must have answer by tomorrow, tell him the
answer is no, and hang up. You take all the time you need.

Do not allow residual ownership. Do not give the inventor contractual rights
to control your use of the machine or your statements about it. The machine
will fail and when you try to warn other people he will use the contract to
threaten you with a lawsuit. Do not accept a contract that forbids you from
looking inside the machine during the verification phase or after you buy it.
Have some common sense!

Make sure the scientist owns the machine and he can sell it to you free and
clear. Have him sign a contract to that effect. He may have stolen the
machine. He may be a co-inventor and his former alienated partner may come
after you.

Do not set up an escrow account. Do not let a scammer tell you that a
mysterious "institute" in Europe will act as the judge and decide whether you
should pay for the machine! That's a classic sucker's game. He rigs the
"institute" in advance and your "escrow money" is as good as gone.

Ask for customer references. If the inventor says he will send them, wait for
them to arrive before proceeding. If he says he has none, ask why not.

Quiz the inventor to find out if he knows basic science. If he says
electrolysis can be 115% efficient, watch out! Also beware of lunatics who
think that refrigerators are o-u, the government is watching them, and the
Saudi Arabians are trying to kill them. Test his knowledge aggressively, ask
as many questions as you want.

Take your time when evaluating the machine.  A scammer will try to rush you.
You may decide it must run for a week before you accept it. That's fine. You
decide, you set the rules, the inventor has no say in the matter. I repeat:
it's your money!!! You are the boss.

A scammer will know nothing about the machine. A real scientist will wait
patiently or offer to assist you test it. I think you should not accept
assistance from the inventor. If you do, beware of sleight of hand tricks. A
few talented scammers know how to diddle with lab equipment behind your back.

Demand details, details, and more details! Specifications, data, photos, the
size of the transformer, the types of meters and instruments used to test the
machine, papers published and unpublished, patents, videos, conference
displays. A scammer will give you nothing. A real scientist will be thrilled
that you take such deep interest in his work. He will send you everything and
answer all questions promptly. (If you ask for 10 kg of documentation, be
nice, pay copy charges and give the fellow your Fed Ex number.)

While you are negotiating, beware of flaky behavior. A scammer will refuse to
answer simple questions like "when will you deliver the unit?" or "how big is
it?" He will refuse to accept a wire-transfer. He will give you no
specifications, no photos or data, no guarantees or customer references. If
you press him these issues, he will pretend to be upset and he may threaten to
sue you, as Allan has done here. This is a classic tactic. The scammer puts
you on the defensive or makes you feel apologetic. He acts as if *he* is the
wronged party, and he is oh-so-law-abiding. "How dare you ask for product
specifications! How dare you ask when I will deliver the machine! Do you doubt
my word?!?" -- he thunders. The answer is yes, you doubt his word. Always
doubt everyone's word. Only crooks take offense.

Beware of people who know nothing about business law & common practice. Like
for example, people who think it is lawful to turn down a customer because you
do not like his personality.

Watch out for ludicrous exaggerations, especially claims that the inventor has
a finished product ready for the market. When someone tells you he has a
10-watt prototype that works okay on a good day but he may have to tweak it,
that's believable. When someone says he can retrofit your car to run 20 miles
on a cup of water, and the machine always works, and many Important Institutes
have verified it -- but he cannot reveal the names . . . the alarm bells
should ring! Read the literature on CF and you will learn what to expect from
real energy devices.

Again, use your common sense. Suppose someone tells you he is a millionaire
from the auto parts business, he has a $50 million investment from "The
Japanese" (he won't say which Japanese), he had a working prototype back in
1991, but he needs a $2,000 advance for "the materials" to build your machine.
That isn't logical, is it? It doesn't sound right. Trust your instincts and
your common sense. If it doesn't sound right, it isn't. Tell him to get lost.

As I said here before, the rules of polite academic discourse do not apply to
criminals. Con men know how to take advantage of the trusting, open atmosphere
of science. They know how to browbeat the typical diffident scientist. Learn
how to cut people off aggressively, how to ask nosy questions, and how to
demand documented proof of assertions, customer references, telephone numbers,
and anything else you want. Remember: You Stay In Charge, It Is Your Money!!!


     What you cannot do is to take it into your hands to police the field.

I am not policing the field. I am trying to prevent the readers of this forum
from being fleeced. If you want to be fleeced, step right up, here's your
chance, have at it, chum. In six months when you find yourself 5,000 pounds
poorer, don't say I didn't warn you.


     (I don't want to cause any distress, I want to know about these Meyer
     devices)

Well find out then! It won't cost much if you follow my advice. Don't distress
*yourself*.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 13:31:08 1998
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     At 04:04 PM 8/27/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote, oblivious 
to my comments correcting him, about the Meyer cell.
The Meyer cell uses electrolysis of ordinary water and 
has been attacked (un)professionally by Rothwell who also has
had more than a "few good words" about the late Mr. Meyer as well.



  Jed, unable to get a science paragraph past peer-review, continues
his fabrications linking me to this subject, as Jed has never quite
been limited by either science, physics, or truth.

>Jed:Step 2 is to test a machine yourself, or have a skilled friend test it.
>Naturally, in this case it would be fastest and most convenient if you could
>persuade Allan or Swartz to bring their cells to you, or at least allow
you to
>examine the cells and measure input and output. 


  Apparently this is more silly fabrication from Jed.

  Rather than deny this again, Jeds continued b---s--- suggests
we should start working on web pages analyzing and exposing his
other fraudulent statements in Infinite Energy including his
urine engines and other bogus systems that he has used to hurt
the serious material science/nuclear fusion/engineering field. 


     ------------------------------------------------

  Those seriously interested in cold fusion will read the actual
serious literature liiterature 
will find much more than they expect.  

  More references are available at
http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrefs.html
and   http://kemi.aau.dk/~db/fusion/index.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 15:59:30 1998
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Scott, Important: Re: [ON TOPIC] Run 9 exploded, too! 
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:47:16 -0700
From: Ross Tessien <tessien oro.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Scott, Important: Re: [ON TOPIC] Run 9 exploded, too!


>Rebuilding for the third time went rather fast and we are now starting Run
>10 with an all-metal (i.e. strong) in-line bubbler trap between the
>external recombiner and the cell.
>

Scott:

If you build it stronger, the bang will be bigger.  That is not a good way
or a safe way to go.  Hand grenades are made that way, and that is what the
situation was over at SRI that killed that guy.

Make all the isolation things you want in the system, but be absolutely
certain that you have a weak link to blow, not a metal cannister.  You want
it to be able to blow up easily if your fire blocks fail.

Ross Tessien


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 27 16:09:22 1998
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Reply to Jerry Decker'c comments on 'Countdown to Disclosure...Suggestions?' (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 16:59:47 -0500
From: ZPE <zpe pdq.net>

Greetings all!
Jerry Wayne Decker, the KeelyNet list administrator, had some very good comments that I wanted to reply to and share with all those who are aware of our recent announcement.
Jerry wrote:
* Certainly you must understand some of the skepticism about
* your claims and this tease method of release.  Just do it and
* get it over with.

ZPE replies:
Yes, I can certainly understand it.  However, there is no other way to accomplish our goal, which is actually quite simple.  See if you can follow this...
Let's first establish the facts (whether recognized as such or not)...
1)	We have one TRUE answer to free energy (there are other true answers but we have at least one of them).
2)	We are absolutely determined to see our technology developed and marketed within the next few years.
3)	The chances are VERY high that the F/E community will be making one or more major revolution-starting breakthroughs in the very near future.
4)	We have specific charities that we believe should benefit the most (financially) from our discoveries.
5)	The only way to insure those charities benefit the most over all other charities and "good causes" is to take advantage of our strategic market position NOW to develop and market our free-energy technology BEFORE others begin to do so.
6)	Since we do not have access to the financial resources necessary to develop and market our technology, we need to locate and convince someone who does to help us "get to market" first..

Conclusion:
Plan to disclose our discoveries to the entire F/E community in the very near future so that our technology WILL be developed in the next few years and we WILL receive at least some recognition which will open some doors of opportunity for us, but first o
pen a 10-week window of opportunity for one member (person or company) of the free energy investor community to establish a business relationship with us to be able to be the first to develop and begin marketing F/E technology in partnership with us, ther
eby achieving our charity goals.
Jerry wrote:
* Put your name or your company name all over it and post it
* globally so that all will know WHO did it.  Let the winds of
* destiny decide your reward when people everywhere can
* see the proof of it as built by their own hand.
* Give enough information that people can at least see how
* it can happen or do a tabletop experiment to verify it.  

ZPE replies:
This is our plan... AFTER we've given our FIRST choice a chance.
Jerry wrote:
* Surely if you are one of us, wanting to see just one honest
* working overunity machine before your time is up, you would
* realize most of us root for anyone the first time, until they
* either can't or won't back up what they claim.
* This is similar to the religious/ufo cults where people give
* all their possessions to the charismatic leader, meet on the
* mountain top and we'll all be saved when whoever comes
* down.  When whoever is a  no show, well then never mind,
* go back home, if you still have one.

ZPE replies:
Since we are not self-seeking fools, as many may have been, the above scenario will not happen.  Of course, no one will know that for sure until it's all said and done.  That's unfortunate, to say the least, but we can't see sacrificing our potential abil
ity to help the charities of our choice to avoid causing some people to feel they are being teased for a few weeks.  We certainly would have taken another route if it existed, but it doesn't.  Hard choices have to be made.  We choose to push to alleviate 
the lifelong suffering of the many that we believe deserve it the most rather than prevent the short-term anxiety of a few.  Any upright, moral and ethical person would do the same.
Jerry wrote:
* So, let's run through some scenarios with this tease
* countdown method, here is the prioritized version;
1)	you actually do have something and when your countdown ends, you release it in a form that anyone can prove, congratulations
2)	you actually do have something and when your countdown ends, you are funded to verify and produce them so that we can all buy them IN A
TIMELY FASHION, congratulations again
3)	your countdown ends with no sponsors and you change your mind and fade to obscurity, leaving yet another pseudo-legend that was never real

ZPE replies:
Number 1) is our choice #2,
Number 2) is our choice #1 and
Number 3) is NOT AN OPTION, not for us, not for mankind!


Jerry wrote:
* Anxiety, expectation, wariness, hope, all building like a giant 'archetype' capacitor that might discharge when your countdown ends, to feed into a signature forcing reality to bend to this new pattern and thus altering the free energy paradigm with you
r vortex method?
* Is this some new way to make things happen?  Ok, we shall see.

ZPE replies:
Again...choices have to be made.
Thanks, Jerry, for taking the time to comment!
Best Wishes,
ZPE
http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:01:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: THANKS...Re: remi bounces....



On Thu, 27 Aug 1998, George Holz wrote:

> Several people have asked for Remi's email address.
> For some reason MS Outlook Express and possibly other
> software truncates his address incorrectly when
> reading it from his emails. The correct address
> can be seen by inspection of the full text of the email.
> It is:
> ad502 iesun9.city.ac.uk
> -
> Email sent to this address was received by Remi.
> Regards,
> George Holz  - george varisys.com
> Varitronics Systems
> 
> 

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 21:04:34 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Subject: Exploding electrochem cells

To: Vortex

Ross Tessien beat me to it:

     If you build it stronger, the bang will be bigger.  That is not a good
     way or a safe way to go.  Hand grenades are made that way, and that is
     what the situation was over at SRI that killed that guy. . . . Make all
     the isolation things you want in the system, but be absolutely certain
     that you have a weak link to blow, not a metal cannister.

Yeah! SRI and Mizuno used a sophisticated safety valve. I recall someone at
TAMU used a simple cork that would pop out of a glass neck. The SRI accident
was like a foreordained Greek tragedy. The safety valve and other protections
failed, and the cell happened to be aimed in the fatal direction when it
rocketed off. It was a dreadful chain of unlikely events.

With a closed cell this is critical. Even open cells can explode, as Scott
demonstrated.

People should read the SRI report.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 07:42:05 1998
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Subject: Re: Northern Lights (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 21:51:53 -0700
From: Ross Tessien <tessien oro.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Northern Lights

The aurora are caused as I'm sure you know by ions streaming in from the sun
which ejected them probably a couple of days earlier.  The solar wind
travels outward at ecliptic elevations at about 400 km/s.  But the ion
streams are usually due to coronal mass ejections, the big ones especially.
We are heading toward solar maximum in another couple of years, so the
activity on the sun is picking up.

FWIW, the reason behind coronal mass ejections is that mass to energy
conversion is really a release of aether from the resonances we call
particles during the fusion reactions.  Thus, you have action reaction in
the transformation of aether in a high density region (aka particle) as it
is shot out into the lower pressure regions around that resonance (aka empty
space).  So a coronal mass ejection occurs when aether released in the core
of the sun breaks out through the photosphere and crosses the coronal
transition region as it expands outward into deep space.  IOW, fusion,
pushes the rest of the universe away, and thus the inflationary process of
the big bang never really ceased, it just changed into an orderly
vaporization of the remaining aether concentrations.

Anyway, the sun has a variety of frequencies that it resonates at.  The peak
frequency is the 5 minute period of solar acoustic oscillations.  But there
are millions of other frequencies.  The emissions that drive the CME's
outward should have the frequency content of the solar oscillations.  Though
by the time they arrive out here, shearing, velocity dispsersion etc. will
smear out the coherency of the waves.  

This is observed via our space craft located at a variety of positions
around the solar system, including Ulysees which is on a polar orbit right
now.  We have pretty good information on the spectral, temporal, positional
dispersion of CME's.  

What you were probably seeing was buffeting of the atmosphere by waves of
particles as they arrived.  But it is next to impossible for me to say since
I didn't see it and we don't have any really good information.  But if you
could see it from space, you would probably see that the ions were sweeping
up and back along the earth's atmosphere, rather than being the pulsing
surges you were seeing.  

In any case, the origin of the surges probably goes right back to the energy
that threw those particles away from the sun in the first place. And that
came from the sun itself, and ultimately from the core as aether emissions.
There is no other known explanation for how the solar wind or CME's are
powered.  They have many things about them that today's physics cannot
account for, despite attempts to do so.  A meeting is scheduled for
discussion of these topics up in Maine next month I think it is.  

Ross Tessien





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Subject:  Whirlpower URL
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:10:28 -0500
From: "Jerry W. Decker" <jdecker keelynet.com>
To: KeelyNet DallasTexas.net
Cc: paijm001 wxs.nl, Tebearden@aol.com, PiyushSaxena@usa.net,
    mbking.ORM2-1.OREM2 gw.novell.com, knuke@aa.net, krscfs@svn.net,
    herman antioch-college.edu, john1@nidlink.com, jlbb@webtv.net,
    pinegap flash.net, hcurtis1@ix.netcom.com, Puthoff@aol.com,
    halfox uswest.net, vman@skylink.net, dalesvp@ipa.net,
    rivas theriver.com, frolov@bcltele.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com,
    vortex-l eskimo.com, zpe@pdq.net
Subject: Whirlpower URL

Hi Folks & Gnorts et al!

This was posted to the renergy list and I thought it should be shared
here.  It might offer some insights into the recent 'vortex countdown'
that indicates a method of tapping energy from a Hilsch/Rankin type
vortex tube - check it out;
===================
Hi everybody,

This is David Dennard, author of Whirlpower Theory.  It is great 
to be here and I think you will find this very interesting.  

For some twenty years now I have been working on a gravity 
driven energy devise. It has gone through a number of 
incarnations and now comes to light as Whirlpower.  

Einstein said many years ago there was one grand theory that 
would explain the motion of all things.  And the reason would be 
gravity.  Many have tried to figure and explain this possibility 
without success.  To the point it had all but been discarded.  
No longer.  

After years of trying I have proposed a theory that does this.  
It has been confirmed by physicists and work on a prototype is 
underway.  

Physicist Edward Maesen has put up the Whirlpower page for me at;

      http://www.ledomedesprit.com/domeworld/whirlpower.html

This is a very informative page and has moving graphics of the 
basic Whirlpower concept.  

Vortex World in Sweden has confirmed Whirlpower and are working 
on the prototype.  See 

    http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-58759/Starteng.html , 

they believe I have solved the mystery of the vortex.  There is 
much historical data.  Click on the links page to see the Whirlpower 
addition.  A full Whirlpower section is in the works.  

Whirlpower harnesses the force of gravity.  It is much like 
building an artificial hurricane.  The power comes from the force 
of gravity acting on the vortex causing it to wobble.  It 
approaches and harnesses this action in a very unique way.  

Many have tried but they always tried to harness the vortex.  
Whirlpower lets the vortex spin freely and taps the effect of 
the vortex, not the vortex itself.  This is the Whirlpower 
difference and the solution to the mystery of the vortex.   

I look forward to working with you all on this march and I 
plan to present the Holy Grail to the world.  I need all the help 
I can get.  This is not a company, just me.  

David Dennard 
jclark dcn.davis.ca.us
-- 
           Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker keelynet.com
         http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
      Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 07:42:41 1998
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Subject: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Placebo effect on PBS (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:04:58 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Subject: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Placebo effect on PBS

To: Vortex

The PBS news hour this evening featured an interesting segment on faith
healing style medicine which is now being practiced, and researched, in a
large hospital in New York. In one technique, a Chinese lady held her hands
over the patient's body and sensed a kind of aura, and she set aura straight
by moving her hands and reciting mumbo-jumbo as they wheeled the poor guy into
cardiac surgery. A 9-year-old girl was shown performing an experiment in which
she demonstrated that the aura people could not detect the presence of the
girl's hand on the other side of a screen. In a less heretical technique,
patients under deep anaesthesia wore headphones playing soothing "new age
music" overlaid with a syrupy recorded voice saying "don't worry, relax,
you'll be fine." I think there is considerable evidence in the medical
literature that occasionally people in deep anesthesia become aware of their
surroundings, what is being said, and what is done to them. Doctors and nurses
are now trained to watch their language and not to say derogatory or
frightening things about the patient. I read that people have recovered from
surgery and angrily quoted back insulting remarks.

I thought the attitudes of the scientists and doctors involved was
interesting, and similar to what you hear in the CF debate. What struck me as
unreasonable, unscientific and downright cruel was the attitude of a doctor
who is campaigning to stop these techniques. He had a poster from some science
skeptics organization and he was saying stuff like, "this is nothing but the
placebo effect, we have known for a hundred years that placebos can make
patients feel better even though there is no actual clinical effect and it is
all in their minds." I felt like shaking him by the lab coat lapels and
shouting: "Of course it is the placebo effect! You have known it for a hundred
years?!? Then why did wait until five years ago to use placebos? Where else is
suffering but in mind?!? If it helps the patients, do it. Who cares why it
works, as long as the patients like it and want it, and recover faster." With
his attitude you expect the guy to burst into the pediatric ward and grab the
teddy bears away from crying children! "That's not a real bear! It's a stuffed
pillow! You expect comfort from a doll?!? Grow up!" He should realize that
adult patients are terrified too, they are still children at heart (who
isn't?), and adults need comfort and make-believe too. What harm could can
there be in having an old Chinese lady wave her arms over you and mumble as
you go into surgery? It like having a hospital volunteer come in and plump
your pillow and arrange flowers after surgery.

I personally am a diehard rationalist and new age music makes me puke. If I
found myself in that hospital I would tell the old Chinese lady to buzz off,
and I'd tell the nurse if you must play music make it Mozart. I would probably
cling to hard-boiled, scientific, rationalist denial of this mumbo-jumbo faith
healing, and I might find in this denial a source of strength, which would be
a valuable placebo. I recall a WWII memoir by an American in a Japanese
hellhole POW camp. His friend was a diehard atheist. As his friend died in
agony, his last words to the author were something like: "See! They say you
believe in God at the end, in extremis, but not me! That's bull! You don't!
Not me!" I think the man derived as much comfort, strength and dignity in the
face of death from his atheism as other people take from their religious
beliefs. I would have encouraged him. You should take comfort wherever you
find it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 07:42:47 1998
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Subject: Re: Whirlpower URL (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:30:27 -0500
From: "Jerry W. Decker" <jdecker keelynet.com>
To: KeelyNet DallasTexas.net, paijm001@wxs.nl, Tebearden@aol.com,
    PiyushSaxena usa.net, mbking.ORM2-1.OREM2@gw.novell.com, knuke@aa.net,
    krscfs svn.net, herman@antioch-college.edu, john1@nidlink.com,
    jlbb webtv.net, pinegap@flash.net, hcurtis1@ix.netcom.com,
    Puthoff aol.com, halfox@uswest.net, vman@skylink.net, dalesvp@ipa.net,
    rivas theriver.com, frolov@bcltele.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com,
    vortex-l eskimo.com, zpe@pdq.net
Subject: Re: Whirlpower URL

Hi Folks!

This Whirlpool idea of tapping into the precession effect from
gravitational wobble and frame dragging smacks so clearly of David
Hamel, John Searl, Victor Schauberger and the Clem engine that I'm kind
of amazed at this point.  From his diagrams, it looks like the vortex
moving through a donut shape at high velocity yet not actually touching
it, will exert a kind of inertial mass effect that will cause the
doughnut fluid to move on its own.  Just rambling as this is new to me
at this point, but quite interesting.  Hal Puthoff should love this idea
of tapping into frame dragging for power...
-- 
           Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker keelynet.com
         http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
      Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

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Subject: Important: Re: [ON TOPIC] Run 9 exploded, too!  (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 22:43:54 -0500
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Important: Re: [ON TOPIC] Run 9 exploded, too! 

>From: Ross Tessien <tessien oro.net>

>If you build it stronger, the bang will be bigger.  That is not a good way
>or a safe way to go.  Hand grenades are made that way....

Ross, you are full of good advice!  I still have plenty of weak points in
the system (e.g. rubber hoses, etc.)...I just didn't want the bubbler
apparatus to be made of glass which would certainly shatter during a gas
explosion.

As it turns out Run 10 was a success (i.e. didn't explode)!  The gas in the
space between the recombiner and the new water-trap ignited explosively at
about 20 second intervals during the warm-up electrolysis phase when H2 and
O2 production is highest.  These mini-explosions did no harm to anything
and the experiment continued to function without a hitch.

A full report on Run 10 will be issued tomorrow.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 07:45:17 1998
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 01:05:32 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
To: Vortex Mail <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Access difficulties

On Thu, 27 Aug 1998, Norman Horwood wrote:
Soo,
>> When he attempts to access the web site, or send a "subscribe" email he
gets the message.... "unable to make contact - maybe the site is down"
Any suggestions? <<
Perhaps he is using the wrong vortex address for subscribing.  I believe it
changed a little while ago.  I recently unsubscribed and re-subscribed
recently over a 4-week holiday with no trouble.
He should use <vortex-l-request eskimo.com>  *YES*
--------
One other thought, can he subscribe to any-other lists? If your above
quote is "exact:)" That almost looks like what a fire-wall filter would
return to non-outside access allowed. Most unix based systems would
include a much more detailed report of attempts made before failure.
AND always use the same terminal station to get your mail at that you
subscribed from.
-=se=-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 07:48:32 1998
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Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 07:47:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Countdown to Disclosure...Suggestions? (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 02:08:41 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Countdown to Disclosure...Suggestions?

On Thu, 27 Aug 1998, John Winterflood wrote:
ZPE wrote:
>...Maybe we could create a list of people to be notified of updates
>instead of "bothering" the disinterested.  Unless a better idea is ...
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And to think we have just been lectured on the UNcorrect use of this
word!
--------------------
Gee, here's a "novel" idea, last week I just put a circle around the day
on my calander 10 weeks forward :)
   If there ARE updates, I will go look at them though.
-=se=-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 07:49:51 1998
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Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 07:49:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: High-speed electrostatic air-threads and "angel hair" (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:28:19 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: High-speed electrostatic air-threads and "angel hair"

Hi All,

Finally, I figured that the recent UFO incident occurred at AU may have relation of the William Beaty's air threads!

First what is happened at AU:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/v03/rnd03_33.html
UFOs DROP "ANGEL HAIR" IN NEW SOUTH WALES 

Twenty UFOs, described as "shiny silver spheres," flew over a number of farms near Quirindi, New South Wales, Australia last weekend, littering the ground with cobweb-like filaments called "angel hair." 

According to USA Today, "Residents of a small Australian community swear that they saw cobwebs fall from the sky after UFOs passed overhead. Dozens of residents of Quirindi called Australia's National UFO Hotline after the incident." 

According to the Tamworth, N.S.W. North Daily Leader, "Mrs. E. Stansfield, 61 years (old), said that she saw cobwebs falling from the sky. She saw twenty silver balls which passed overhead. When she went out to her daughter, she too was covered in fine st
rands of cobweb. When she tried to pick it up, it disintegrated in her hand. The family car had cobwebs all over it." 

The incident took place at 5:04 p.m. on Sunday, August 9, 1998. Quirindi is just north of the Liverpool mountain range, about 70 kilometers (42 miles) southwest of Tamworth, N.S.W. and 300 kilometers (180 miles) northwest of Sydney. 

Australian researcher Raymond Brooks reported that the "various craft" performed aerobatic maneuvers over the farms "for 1.5 hours, including the release of 'angel hair.'" (See the Tamworth, N.S.W. North Daily Leader for August 10, 1998 and USA Today for 
August 11, 1998. Many thanks to Raymond Brooks, Diane Hamilton and Ross Dowe of Australia/New Zealand 24-Hour UFO Hotline for this news story.) 

-------------------------------------------
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/aug/m16-012.shtml

ANGEL HAIR EVENTS -1998 & 1969
compiled by Bill Chalker

The "angel hair" UFO spectacle at Quirindi, New South Wales,
Australia, on 10 August, 1998, has now been the subject of
interviews and investigation. Moira McGhee of INUFOR spoke with
the family on the evening of 11 August and arranged for a sample
of the material, which had been sealed in a yoghurt container
with gladwrap and rubber band, to be despatched to her. It was
packed with a cardboard cover and securely sealed (we hope!).
Moira kindly made the sample available to me on Saturday 15
August. Bryan Dickeson of UFOR(NSW) also spoke with the family.
I have undetaken discussion with some specialists working with
me and we are attempting to arrange at least gas chromotography.
The determination of detector and column combinations has to be
determined. We may also try to undertake some micro video
imaging if the nature of the sample permits it. I have
discussed the incident at length with 2 of the witnesses. Mrs.
Eunice Stanfield told me that 2 strands of the material
originally about 3 feet long were put into the container. They
were "evaporating" and she indicated that prior to despatch the
material appeared to have reduced in volume to about the size of
a match had. Because of this we have cooled the sample. It is
currently held in a freezer. This will assist us to determine
if phase changes occur. Because of the severe sample
limitations we may only get one crack at this. I will advise
all concerned of any results. I have refrained from opening the
sample to facilitate needle sampling under control sampling
conditions, if this is determined as a viable option.

[snipping the text about similar incidents occured in past]

----------------------------------------------------------

In an other posting the possibility of polimerisation of the air or metastable N-O chain are proposed.

I think the phenomenon air threads serve to form beam shape long metastable molecules formed by elements contain the air. Electric-magnetic fields, ionization, pressures, cooling and some other conditions formed by presence od UFO's may caused this materi
al.

Any comments?


hamdi ucar

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  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
  Send mail to mime docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 06:44:51 -0600
From: Frederick J Sparber <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: The Wire - Breaking News from the Associated Press (http://wire.ap.org/?PACKAGE

A snowball in Hell?    :-)

http://wire.ap.org/?PACKAGEID=climate

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 07:52:43 1998
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Subject: Re: Solar ZPE? (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 06:35:26 -0600
From: Frederick J Sparber <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: George <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Solar ZPE?

To: Vortex

Given that the "Solar Neutrino Problem" indicates that there are less than
1/3 the
number of neutrinos coming from the Sun, could it be that 2/3 of the 4.3E6
tonnes of Mass Loss is the production of that amount of energy by
dE = h/dt ("ZPE")from atomic collisions?

IOW, the hotter and more numerous the collisions the more manifested "ZPE"
energy with the fusion reactions merely a byproduct
of Stellar evolution:

1, Gravity heat

2, ZPE heating

3, Fusion heating ?

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 07:53:06 1998
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 08:54:51 -0400
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Cold Fusion References


Steve Ekwall suggested clarification as:


  Anyone seriously interested in the scientific
cold fusion literature will find more references 
available at:

  http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrefs.html
            theCOLD FUSION TIMES ref page

or 

  http://kemi.aau.dk/~db/fusion/index.html
           Dieter Britz's ref Page


  Hope that helps


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 07:53:36 1998
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:52:35 -0400
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Am I still here?

I unsubscribed from vortexb-L eskimo.com yesterday and just want to
check if I'm still in the regular vortex-L.  Am I still here?

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 08:05:41 1998
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On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> To: >INTERNET:vortexb-l eskimo.com
> 
> Vortex-L is not working. This message is sent to VortexB-L. Other messages
> sent to Vortex-L are missing.


Vortex-L is now a "moderated" list.

It will take a little while for everyone to see the messages about
vortexB.  When everyone stops posting vortexB topics to the vortex list,
I will put things back to normal.

"Moderated" means that all messages are held for my review (which will be
2 or 3 times daily).  Normal messages will be forwarded to vortex, while
"Meyer" and "recognizing scams" messages will be forwarded to vortexB.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 09:26:14 1998
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Subject: Negative resistance (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:23:45 EDT
From: BriggsRO aol.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Negative resistance

Has anyone heard anything recently about the report a few weeks ago concerning
negative resistance in a carbon filament junction?  It sort of fell off the
screen and I'm curious as to where it went.

Bob Briggs

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Subject: Re: Whirlpower URL (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:06:55 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Whirlpower URL

Jerry Decker wrote:
> This was posted to the renergy list and I thought it should be shared
> here.  It might offer some insights into the recent 'vortex countdown'
> that indicates a method of tapping energy from a Hilsch/Rankin type
> vortex tube - check it out;

>       http://www.ledomedesprit.com/domeworld/whirlpower.html


Hey, that setup looks darn familiar......  8^)

Is it too early to say I told you so? hee hee hee


-- 

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    John E. Steck
      Senior Mechanical Engineer
      Rapid Tooling Applications
      Motorola CE, PCS, Libertyville, IL
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 09:27:49 1998
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Subject: Re: Important: Re: [ON TOPIC] Run 9 exploded, too!  (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:17:42 -0700
From: Ross Tessien <tessien oro.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Important: Re: [ON TOPIC] Run 9 exploded, too!  (fwd)




>Ross, you are full of good advice!  I still have plenty of weak points in
>the system (e.g. rubber hoses, etc.)...I just didn't want the bubbler
>apparatus to be made of glass which would certainly shatter during a gas
>explosion.
>
>As it turns out Run 10 was a success (i.e. didn't explode)!  The gas in the
>space between the recombiner and the new water-trap ignited explosively at
>about 20 second intervals during the warm-up electrolysis phase when H2 and
>O2 production is highest.  These mini-explosions did no harm to anything
>and the experiment continued to function without a hitch.

Sounds safer anyway!

Try to get some sort of bellows into the system if possible.  
Even a balloon ;-) over the end of some pipe so that excess sudden pressure
rises can be damped out.  A bellows is the mechanical equivalent of a capacitor.

But don't be complacent about what I said earlier.  Remember that you are
only dealing with chemical explsions here.  So be certain you have
protection around the actual experiment in the event of a really fast rise
in heat output in the cell itself.  Assume you are going to succeed, and
take appropriate precautions.


Ross Tessien




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 15:50:00 1998
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From: Edwin Strojny <estrojny freeway.net>
Subject: Re: Northern Lights (fwd)
Resent-Message-ID: <"GHOVa1.0.mq7.AEpvr" mx1>
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Thank you Ross for your explanation.  If I understand what you are saying is
that the CMEs can come in different frequencies as well as a fairly steady
stream at the same time.  This would account for seeing streaks and pulses
going across the sky at the same time.  You are also saying that an ion
stream might be bouncing along the top of earth's atmosphere giving an
illusion of pulsed luminescence sweeping across the sky or is the CME in the
form of a polarized sine wave the bottom of which is touching the atmosphere?

Ed Strojny

At 07:41 AM 8/28/98 -0700, Ross Tessian wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 21:51:53 -0700
>From: Ross Tessien <tessien oro.net>
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Northern Lights
>
snip
>
>What you were probably seeing was buffeting of the atmosphere by waves of
>particles as they arrived.  But it is next to impossible for me to say since
>I didn't see it and we don't have any really good information.  But if you
>could see it from space, you would probably see that the ions were sweeping
>up and back along the earth's atmosphere, rather than being the pulsing
>surges you were seeing.  
>
>In any case, the origin of the surges probably goes right back to the energy
>that threw those particles away from the sun in the first place. And that
>came from the sun itself, and ultimately from the core as aether emissions.
>There is no other known explanation for how the solar wind or CME's are
>powered.  They have many things about them that today's physics cannot
>account for, despite attempts to do so.  A meeting is scheduled for
>discussion of these topics up in Maine next month I think it is.  
>
>Ross Tessien
>
>
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 16:51:43 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Where does the energy come from?
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 23:50:39 GMT
Organization: Improving
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When the sun and moon are directly overhead, their combined
"attraction" (Ross read "shadow") results in a smaller value for g
than it has 12 hours later when the earth has turned 180 degrees. Both
sun and moon are then "underfoot", so the net effect is actually twice
as strong.
This means that it doesn't take as much energy to lift a given mass
during the day, as one gets back during the night (m and h are
constant, but g changes).
Now where does the difference in energy come from :)?

Note: This is not intended to be a practical energy source, but rather
a thought experiment to help understand the nature of gravity, and
specifically to test the idea that gravity is conservative.
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 17:03:50 1998
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Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Placebo effect on PBS (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:09:00 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Placebo effect on PBS (fwd)

> From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>

> The PBS news hour this evening featured an interesting segment on faith
> healing style medicine which is now being practiced, and researched, in a
> large hospital in New York. In one technique, a Chinese lady held her hands
> over the patient's body and sensed a kind of aura, and she set aura straight
> by moving her hands and reciting mumbo-jumbo as they wheeled the poor guy into
> cardiac surgery. 

This aura adjustment technique has me scratching my head.  I know of two
unrelated, rational, conservative, dyed-in-the-wool skeptics that visited
seperate "new-age" healers to see if there was any truth to reports like
these.   They are still looking for explainations.  

Each had a physical pain, one a sports knee injury, the other a chronic
neck/pinched nerve problem.  Each described a very similar experience.  Neither
was subject to the mumbo-jumbo reciting, but both recounted a 100% non-contact
(2-6 inches away) session where a sensation of internal heating could be felt as
the each practitioner ran their hands around them "pushing" their aura into the
injured areas.  Nothing else was used.  Both practitioners wore short sleeves. 
Both skeptics were awake and conversational the entire time.  No "Jedi mind
tricks" were tried....  

Both practioners described the process to them as "smoothing" or "evening out"
the energy to permit the body oportunity to heal itself.  Both skeptics reported
the areas "hot" to the touch after their brief sessions (although neither
thought to grab a thermometer  ... amatures!  ha ha) and felt no pain or
discomfort from their injuries for several hours afterward.  

The sports injury reported a return of the pain after a while, but it healed
shortly there after ("in record time" was claimed), the chronic neck pain enjoys
noticibly reduced debilitating episodes following a monthly "checkup" regiment. 
Funny part is they both remain staunch skeptics... even the one who now
maintains a regular appointment.

> I personally am a diehard rationalist and new age music makes me puke. If I
> found myself in that hospital I would tell the old Chinese lady to buzz off,
> and I'd tell the nurse if you must play music make it Mozart. I would probably
> cling to hard-boiled, scientific, rationalist denial of this mumbo-jumbo faith
> healing, and I might find in this denial a source of strength, which would be
> a valuable placebo. 

To each their own, although I like to leave my mind open to possibility when I
don't have anything to lose doing so.  Kind of like believing in God, not a big
deal if you are wrong, quite a different story if you are correct.  8^)

I know there are better forums for this, but just thought I would share.


-- 

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    John E. Steck
      Senior Mechanical Engineer
      Rapid Tooling Applications
      Motorola CE, PCS, Libertyville, IL
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 17:03:51 1998
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Negative resistance (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:59:39 -0700
From: "mrand access" <mrand@iols.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Negative resistance (fwd)

Bob Briggs wrote:

>Has anyone heard anything recently about the report a few weeks ago
concerning
>negative resistance in a carbon filament junction?  It sort of fell off the
>screen and I'm curious as to where it went.


For more info a NDA was required.  They are currently developing
applications and obtaining patents.  A paper for publishing is in the works.

Regards,   Michael Randall



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 17:04:08 1998
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Inc W. Run 8,9,& 10 (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:29:29 -0500
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Inc W. Run 8,9,& 10

Take a look at:

http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/run8910.html

I have reported on the two exploding runs (8 & 9) and on Run 10 which did
not explode...at least not destructively...and did provide the identity of
our "excess gas".  

It is hydrogen.

The total quantity evolved matches reasonably well the quantity of W
removed from the rod if you assume that the W is being oxidized with O
taken from H2O molecules.

Again the energy balance fell somewhat short...this time by 4%.  Possible
causes are discussed.  I don't think it has anything to do with the excess
hydrogen.

Dennis Cravens has suggested that we run this experiment "below
incandescence" where the W rod is not rapidly consumed.  He reports seeing
low-level excess heat (~15%) in that regime.  That's probably next on the
list...unless someone suggests something more interesting to try first.

Our thanks to Bill Beaty for fixing Vortex-L again.





Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 17:04:10 1998
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:26:45 -0700
From: Bob Horst <bhorst loc1.tandem.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scott's run 10

Scott  --

In run 10, you said:

> As it turns out Run 10 was a success (i.e. didn't explode)!  The gas in the
> space between the recombiner and the new water-trap ignited explosively at
> about 20 second intervals during the warm-up electrolysis phase when H2 and
> O2 production is highest.  These mini-explosions did no harm to anything
> and the experiment continued to function without a hitch.
> 
Your message seems to imply that all of the gas recombined.  Were you
able to determine that?  If so, it certainly narrows down the range of
possibilities for the composition of the gas.

-- Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 17:04:18 1998
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: A good book -- The Quantum Dot (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:47:44 -0700
From: Bob Horst <bhorst loc1.tandem.com>
To: Vortex List <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: A good book -- The Quantum Dot

Just finished reading a good book called:

"The Quantum Dot: A Journey into the Future of Microelectronics" by
Richard Turton, Oxford Press, ISBN 0-19-510959-7.

The book is very good at giving an intuitive feel for complex topics
using many different analogies.  It assumes relatively little physics
background but includes discussions of energy levels, semiconductors,
tunnelling, quantum transistors, and superconductors. It has no
mathematics and would not be useful to experts in the field, but is good
to give others a good feel for these topics.

I thought that some Vorts might be interested in this book as a way to
help visualize some of the solid state phenomenon.  The book is a 1996
book, and is now available in paperback.

-- Bob Horst

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 17:06:28 1998
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:09:25 EDT
From: Puthoff aol.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Re: Solar ZPE? (fwd)

Fred,

In my NASA paper recently sent you, one of my references had to do with my
colleagues' calculations that, astrophysically, the ZPE might power up nuclei
into cosmic rays - a related idea?!

Hal

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 17:10:24 1998
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:23:44 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Subject: Dennis Lee's lament

To: Vortex; >INTERNET:atech ix.netcom.com

Dennis Lee wrote a short message that succinctly summarizes the problems and
paradoxes faced by any businessman, in any field, not just over-unity energy:

     I don't want $10,000.00, I want royalties and independent wealth so I
     can build more stuff. What would you do with the design if you don't
     give it away or give it back? What's to stop you from just figuring it
     out then not paying during your test period? It seems you want people to
     trust you but you don't want to take any chances. How's the guy your
     dealing with supposed to deal with such a paradox?

I'd like to address this, but first I want say I am not here to teach grandma
how to suck eggs. Every businessman has to work out these issues for himself.
I'll describe how I have dealt with these problems over the last 25 years, and
how my grandfather dealt with them for 60 years. He and I made pedestrian
goods, not exotic o-u energy devices. I suppose o-u energy machines have some
special rules, but mostly business is business, customers are customers, and
what works selling computers or medical equipment will also apply to o-u
energy.

Let's break it down sentence by sentence:

     I don't want $10,000.00, I want royalties and independent wealth so I
     can build more stuff.

Gee! I want that too! Wouldn't it be lovely? You could do what you love best
all day, and make the maximum contribution to society. Unfortunately, your
customers do not give a damn what you want. They want practical machines from
you. They want the design change you promised last week. You stockholders want
a return on investment. You cannot run a business based on what *you* want.
Your purpose is to attract customers and satisfy their needs. If they feel
like paying you royalties, that's wonderful! But if a customer (me, in this
case) wants to pay you $10,000 for a machine, that's wonderful too. Money is
money, the customer is always right, and when someone offers you business,
your job is to smile and say: Yes, of course, right away sir, and can I get
you another one at that price?

Practice smiling and saying yes in front of a mirror. Remember the old saying:
When the customer says jump, you say 'how high?' Never turn down an honest
paying proposition. *Never* say "I don't want $10,000." That's sacrilege! It
is rude to the customer. Of course you want $10,000!!! You are *delighted* to
have my business. You want $10. You want $1. If I ask you to sell me your old
shoelace for 50 cents, you'll whip it off, gift wrap it, and hand it over the
counter. You want whatever the customer offers, or if you do not, you better
act as if you would take the money if you could, but you can't handle the
order this week or you can't afford that price, awfully sorry, please come
back, we appreciate your business and thank you very much.


     What would you do with the design if you don't give it away or give it
     back?

I would do whatever I please with the design. Customers always do. Of course I
will not give it back! The machine becomes my property. I may well be a
competitor; I may intend to reverse engineer your product, but you must sell
it to me anyway. Don't you see?!? Every businessman in history has faced this
quandary. When the first caveman traded one sharpened flint knife for two
fish, he felt a sense of unease. He thought to himself, "this guy is going to
figure out how to make flint knives. He'll undersell me, rob my business and
pretty soon I'll be getting one fish instead of two." Everyone in the software
business knows that hungry programmers are out there looking at your package
and thinking, "I could do that. I could grab a nice chunk of this market . .
."

Suppose you sit on your o-u machine, your flints, or your software. Nobody
learns your secrets. Your secrets are safe all right, but you have no fish.
You starve! You cannot be in business without taking risks, but you can reduce
them. You can manage them. That's the good news! You can hold back the
competition. You can discourage that fisherman from making flint knives; the
programmer can prevent others from making better, cheaper, faster versions of
his software. Here is how you do it. You improve the product, you improve
customer service, you outsell, outservice and out-invent the competition. You
make your own product obsolete, or the competition will do it for you and
bankrupt you. Let's say in 1998 you sell a dozen 100-watt o-u machines for
$10,000 each.  In 1999 you bring out a 500-watt model for only $5,000, and you
sell a few hundred. In 2005 you bring out a kilowatt model and you charge only
$1,000, and you sell a million units. You make a billion dollars. Or maybe by
that time you license your technology to other companies. Either way, you
improve it, and improve it, and improve it, you sell and sell, your reputation
for good service and good products grows, your customer base grows, your
credibility grows, and you stay ahead of the competition. If you stop and
rest, you lose.

In business the most valuable asset is a base of satisfied customers. They
will buy your latest model. They will recommend you to their friends, bringing
in new customers. Word of mouth free advertising is the best kind. I believe
the way to build a business in o-u machines, computers, oranges, or underwear
is to start with one sale to one customer and build up from there. As the
Chinese say, a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. Unless
some guy hands you a billion dollars in investment capital, you business must
start small and grow big, one customer, one sale at a time. And why not? Henry
Ford got his start by selling a car to one customer. He demonstrated his car
in public, in an auto race, he attracted a few customers, and he began to
sell. Bill Gates sold a paper tape with BASIC to a microcomputer user. Okay, a
few businesses started big. In 1878, J. P. Morgan handed Edison a bunch of
money, Edison sat down and invented the incandescent light, and a few years
later their new company, General Electric, was churning out bulbs. But in 1878
Edison was the most famous inventor in the U.S. He had credibility. He had a
reputation. He was buddy-buddy with Morgan and other elite capitalists. Henry
Ford and Bill Gates had nothing when they started, yet in a few years they
owned the biggest, best, most profitable businesses in the country. It does
not take long to build a business if you have a fabulous product, with a huge
demand, and you run the business skillfully. O-u inventors must start with
nothing. Less than nothing! They have strong negatives, as the politicians
say; they must struggle to overcome negative perceptions and reputations
tarnished by centuries of perpetual motion machine scams. They have zero
credibility, zero sales, no capital, and no prospect of attracting capital. So
how can an honest o-u inventor with a real product succeed? Simple! He must do
what Ford, the Wrights, Bill Gates, me and 99.9999% of other businessmen have
done since the beginning of time: sell one product to one customer. Get the
ball rolling. That's the only strategy that will work. Fortunately, it also
happens to be the best, simplest, oldest, and most popular business strategy.


     What's to stop you from just figuring it out then not paying during your
     test period?

Nothing stops me from doing this. But again, every businessman in history has
faced this kind of problem. You sell a guy a car, he makes two payments and
you never hear from him again. Rich women sometimes buy a set of dishes and an
evening gown from a department store, throw a big party, and show up the next
morning to return the stuff for a refund. I have handed out many free trials
of my products. Occasionally customers have taken unfair advantage and refused
to pay or return the merchandise. Some have been in cahoots with my
competition. Fortunately, most customers are honest and this sort of thing
does not happen often. Keep a list of troublemakers and don't sell to them
again. In my case, I guess you could ask around a little, although a customer
is a customer and in your position you cannot be picky. Hey, don't worry. I am
not Thomas Edison. He often played the game you described. He would buy
expensive, state of the art equipment, he would slow pay or no pay, and
reverse engineer all the while. Dealing with such people is the price you must
pay to stay in business. That's life in the big city. You want money, you are
going to have to live with the Tom Edisons of this world.


     It seems you want people to trust you but you don't want to take any
     chances.

No, you misunderstand. In this case *I don't have to take any chances.* I
choose to take no chances. I am the customer. You are a weak sister vendor (to
use an old-fashioned sexist expression). I am in a position to set the rules,
dictate the terms, and have things my own way, because you have no
credibility, no sales, no power, no negotiating room. I have the money and you
want it badly, so you must do as I say. When I am in the stronger position, I
set terms that protect my interests and reduce my risks, at your expense.
However I will not make unreasonable demands that might kill the deal.

Now if you were Microsoft and I wanted Windows 98, you would be strong and I
would be weak. I would have to suck it in, buy whatever sloppy product you
offer, and meekly hope that it does not have many bugs. Praying that I will
need no technical assistance, I would back up the computer, cross my fingers,
and install. In this relationship between a weak customer and a vendor, you
see the seeds of Microsoft's eventual demise. Their dominant power leads to
hubris, and hubris will someday leave them open to a competitor who makes a
better operating system software and answers the tech support line.

You should not hold it against me that I crack the whip, reduce my own risk,
and force you to take chances. Any savvy businessman will do that. Indeed, if
I offer you a sweet deal and I seem to take unnecessary risks upon myself,
that should make you suspicious! Beware of people who claim they are altruists
or they have your best interests in heart. They are probably thieves. Remember
that "con man" is short for "confidence man"; one who robs by inspiring
confidence and then betraying it. In the hard-boiled world of business, nobody
had your best interests in heart but you, and a deal which seems too good to
be true probably is. Nobody is going to give you a break or pay in advance if
he does not have to.


     How's the guy your dealing with supposed to deal with such a paradox?

It is no paradox. It is the hard-luck position any businessman finds himself
in when he is starting up, he has no sales yet, no customers, no credibility.
I have been there . . . most of your customers have been there. If you do your
best your customers will understand and forgive your errors and shortcomings.
You deal with this hard-luck position with guts, honesty and hard work. Soon
you have thousands of customers, widespread goodwill in the community, a fine
reputation, and you are sitting in the catbird seat.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 17:10:56 1998
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:00:06 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Nobel Physicist Dies

Nobel Prize-winning physicist dies
10.35 a.m. ET (1436 GMT) August 28, 1998

 ORANGE, Calif. (AP) — Frederick Reines, a Nobel Prize-winning
physicist known as the father of neutrino physics for his
groundbreaking research on particle physics, has died. He was 80.

 Reines died Wednesday at University of California, Irvine Medical
Center from complications of Parkinson's disease. He lived on the
university campus, where he was a physics professor.

 Reines was known as an indefatigable scientist who sometimes
locked himself in his office for hours to work on particularly
difficult physics problems.

 "Science is an attempt to learn more about nature in a coherent,
logical, compact, beautiful way. One has to be prepared to risk
all,  to fail,'' Reines said in an interview in 1982 with The
Orange  County Register.

 Reines (pronounced RYE-ness) began his research on neutrinos in
1951 while at Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory in New Mexico,  where
he produced the ghostlike, virtually massless subatomic  particles
with a nuclear reactor so that he could detect them using a  tank of
water as the agent of detection.

 Just last June, physicists in Japan reported evidence that
neutrinos  have some mass. If substantiated, the discovery could
force  scientists to rethink the theory that the universe began
expanding at  the Big Bang and will keep expanding forever.

 For seven years beginning in 1959, Reines headed the physics
department at Case Institute of Technology, now Case Western
University.

 In 1966, he became the founding dean of physical sciences at the
then-new University of California, Irvine. He led a team of
scientists whose research on neutrinos from supernova 1987A won  the
Bruno Rossi prize in high-energy physics from the American
Astronomical Society.

 In 1995, Reines won the Nobel Prize in physics for his research,
sharing the award with Martin L. Perl of Stanford University, who
was cited for contributions to lepton physics.

 Reines also received the National Medal of Science, the Franklin
Medal from the Benjamin Franklin Institute Committee on Science  and
the Arts, the J. Robert Oppenheimer Memorial Prize and was  named to
the National Academy of Sciences.

 A talented baritone, Reines took lessons from a voice coach at the
Metropolitan Opera and had solo roles in Handel's "Messiah.'' He
later sang with the Cleveland Symphony Orchestra chorus.

 Survivors include his wife, Sylvia, and two children.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 17:11:53 1998
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Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Placebo effect on PBS (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:25:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Placebo effect on PBS (fwd)


Amen ;) As a spirtual atheist I both agree and disagree with your
essay.  Play all that new age music and rub crystals on my
body....just don't tell me about your god[s] in the process.


==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 01:53:22 +0000
From: democracy gold.globalcafe.co.uk (Conference Organisers)
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        mica world.std.com, CharlesPlatt <cp@panix.com>,
        NormanHorwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>, VortexB-L@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: How to avoid energy scams ( part 2 )
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Sirs,

Just for the record, and to put it in plain English:

Yes, I was completely taking the piss out of Jed Rothwell.

( That is the first time of only twice that I will ever use profanity on
this list ).

It was all one big wind up and thank God I can talk in plain English
now.

And thank you Bill for taking up the issue raised privately of the need
for moderation.

For the record, in my opinion moderation does need to go further than
just scams and Meyer/Newman type debates>  If you want to have a happy
house here you are going to have to demand that Jed quits his sloppy,
inaccurate, manipulative, coarse, common, cheap and smearing literary
techniques.  And by all accounts his business techniques too.

If you colectively allow this, or encourage this, you are spoiling the
potential of what you could have here and what the field sorely needs.
Professional and *scientific* credibility.

Even as Cold Fusion and Infinite Energy is about to go public in front
of 700,000 Wired readers - and what a miracle that is after the article
they printed about hydrogen - he was still prepared to vomit all over
the good effort of everyone in the field and everyone here.  What ever
he has done in his career, he sure as hell did not work in the PR
department nor Advanced Planning.

• No, I do not have a M***R type cell to sell him - but if you look
carefully ( a word not in his spellchecker ),

I *never* said that I did.

• Yes, I sure as hell would have locked his $10,000 up in an escrow
account for the rest of my life as damages for what he took away from me
by blowing out the House of Lords seminar.

========================================================================

                  JED,   IF YOU FELL FOR IT FOR 5 MINUTES...

                                    WASTED 5 MINUTES WORTH OF EMOTION
OVER IT...


...YOU ARE AN ASSHOLE!

========================================================================

( This is the last time that I will ever use profanity on this list ).

Now write out, with as much passion and exactitude, the same scenario of
an inventor meeting an investor from the inventor's point of view, or
for the inventor's benefit.  Defend the inventor this time.

How is this guy with his over-unity doo-dah going to run the gauntlet of
heavy-handed investors who want;

• to take a turnkey operation off him,
• buy it cheap, sell it high,
• waste his time flirting around because they have noting better to do,
• wanting to lay on him their 400 page contract,
• screw him down to their 2.5% " industry standard " royalty,
• attempt to prise open the box,
• chip off a bit off to sample,
• steal things from his lab,
• back-engineer it,
• set their 40 strong legal division on an overnighter to beat him to
the patent office with the next 2 claim along the line,
• start production in a foreign country,
• employ him for 6 months and then promote him sideways,
• shut down the division,
• have him sign away all his intellectual property,
• go bankrupt,
• be part of division that is sold or bought over by another company
owned by the parent company and dismissed or given a short contract,
• tell him who to talk to and who not to,
• pick up enough information from signal information or exhaust traces
to work out what is going on inside,
• to wriggle his way through Defense-related and National Security
issues,
• sink his start-up small company in a shares racket on the stock
market,
• watch a Germany subsidiary of a competitive company beat him to
trademark it,
• a South East Asian company bootleg it ,
• exhaust him into submission and soul destruction by running him around
with their demands,
• have three experts bamboozle him in revealing secrets before he wants
him,
• deal with the sickenly patronising and inert attitude of " experts "
and " World Leading Experts " of which there are already too many in
this field,
• Mata Hari seduce him in revealling more than his butt ( obviously this
is open to some negotiation )
• have some industrial or security related espionage befall him,
• work on Military contracts when he may be a conscientious objector,
• defend his ethical stand point,
• live a normal life knowing his phone line is constantly monitored,
• and in extreme case be threatened or attacked,

OR EVEN WORSE

• have Infinite Energy do a front page story on him claiming THE SECOND
COMING in three, YES 3!!!,  weeks with dodgy mathematics out by a factor
of 4 while kissing ass to some Transnational Corporation - who is in the
middle of screwing the genetic code of the planet up while trying to rip
him off while he tries to steal all the credit from his ex-partner who
is some poor bastard Rusky surviving on bread and water in a
Stanlinistic slab of concrete somewhere - because they the Transnational
Corporation might just finance or *** even advertise *** in the
magazine.  [ Src: Infinite Energy magazine July issue I think ].

and so on....


Let's see you swing both ways Jed " Mr Bad Lieutenant " Rothwell.


Ha ha ha ...  John Allan ;-)
energy gold.globalcafe.co.uk


And in the words of the world's best scammers, to name but a few
Presidents and Prime Ministers, that will be 10% of his subscription for
me Bill Beatty.  If you dont run this across the A-List, I will go back
over the archives, pick out every email and send it - and the rest -
anyway.

... of course he knew it was a scam all along I suppose and just had to
protect Blue Gene Baby.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 18:55:58 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Coincidence?
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 01:55:03 GMT
Organization: Improving
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Is it coincidence that gravitational acceleration at the earth's
equator is almost exactly equal in magnitude to centrifugal
acceleration times the proton electron mass ratio divided by 2*PI?

I.e. g = a x Rm/(2 x PI)?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 18:58:07 1998
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From: ZPE <zpe pdq.net>
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	 <Tebearden aol.com>,
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	 <PiyushSaxena usa.net>,
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	 <knuke aa.net>, "'krscfs@svn.net'" <krscfs@svn.net>
To: "'herman antioch-college.edu'" <herman@antioch-college.edu>,
        "'john1 nidlink.com'" <john1@nidlink.com>,
        "'jlbb webtv.net'" <jlbb@webtv.net>,
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        "'Puthoff aol.com'" <Puthoff@aol.com>
To: "'halfox uswest.net'" <halfox@uswest.net>,
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	 <vman skylink.net>,
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To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>,
        "'vortexb-l eskimo.com'"
	 <vortexb-l eskimo.com>,
        "'KeelyNet DallasTexas.net'"
	 <KeelyNet DallasTexas.net>
Subject: RE: Whirlpower URL
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 20:57:43 -0500
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Jerry Decker wrote:
* I have some questions and one correction.

* First of all, although you quoted;
* William Beaty wrote:
* * This was posted to the renergy list and I thought it should be
* shared  here.  It might offer some insights into the recent 'vortex
* countdown'  
* that indicates a method of tapping energy from a Hilsch/Rankin type
* vortex tube - check it out;

* Bill did not write that, I did (Decker), so please don't blame him, I
* am just trying to contribute to the info base in an attempt to
* understand where you are coming from with your 'vortex countdown'.  

A quick correction and an apology to Bill AND Jerry AND everyone...
Now that Bill is moderating Vortex-L, he forwarded Jerry's message to me.  That's why I mistakenly thought Bill wrote the message.  Sorry, Bill.

Also, I want to say that I meant no "blame" for anything.  The word "blame" indicates that something wrong was done and that is not the case here.  Jerry did nothing wrong.

Now for the rest of Jerry's replies...

Jerry Decker wrote:
* All of the aforementioned have to do with spirals and vortexes and
* each offers a bit of understanding which I thought might be applicable
* to your countdown.  

It was this comparison to my work that I immediately became worried about (not offended) because I could just picture in my mind everyone saying to themselves, "OK, I see... this claim of ZPE's is just another unfounded crackpot idea that has no real basi
s just like all the rest."  In fact, shortly after I began composing my initial reply to your post, I received a response from the "3rd party validation" source that I am currently negotiating with that indicated this kind of perception.  John Steck's res
ponse, "Hey, that setup looks darn familiar...... 8^)  Is it too early to say I told you so? hee hee hee" also seems to indicate that perception.  Needless to say, damage control was the order of the day at that point.

* I'm sorry if you got offended, it wasn't intended to inflame or
* arouse, but in all candor, you haven't provided any useful
* information, so we have no option BUT to try to figure out how you
* purport to be able to extract energy, so please don't get upset with
* any of us for at least trying. 

Please understand, I did not get upset with anyone.  In fact I encourage everyone to challenge me.  I see it as the best way to shore up my claims (short of disclosing too much).  I've never made it any secret that I cannot reveal my secrets...yet, and I 
understand anyone trying to "figure it out" as a result of our announcement.  It's my guess that, until our announcement, most have discounted in their own minds the REAL possibility that there is any F/E ability in a gaseous vortex.  Our announcement has
 probably changed this to a degree.

* If we didn't care, we'd just blow you off and not respond in any way,
* that to my mind is a GOOD thing when you get people curious enough to
* think about it.

As I have said above and in a few of my other posts, having readers challenge me is the best thing I could ask for.  This is because it gives me a chance to meet that challenge in a way that can add to my credibility.  Of course, I run the risk of the rev
erse happening if I can't meet the challenge, however, when you actually have the answer, the challenges are easy to meet.  My family and friends have been challenging me for many years.  That's why I have their full support today.  I've been able to meet
 their challenges without fail.  Several of them have graciously offered their services by joining me in this venture (albeit far below what is really needed to achieve full success, hence our announcement).

Jerry Decker wrote:
* You also wrote in your response;
* Dennard: (the source of energy) "originates from the gravitational
* forces on the center rotating structure" 
* ZPE's comment:  Any person with even the most basic education in
* physics knows that gravity is not energy.

* Really? Can anyone truly explain gravity to satisfy all queries and
* prove their explanation by being able to control it?  

* I think the flow of gravity could be considered as a kind of energy
* because you can tap into it.  Flaky as some might see it, gravity IS
* more than probably a pushing effect and one day we will be able to
* prove it and use it, however at this point, I would in in no way say
* anything ABSOLUTELY isn't possible. 

* IMO that statement is like the patent examiner saying back in the late
* 19th century, everything has been invented so they might as well close
* the patent office. 

I think you (and probably a lot of readers) misunderstand something (due to my lack of explaining myself on this).  I fully agree with what you are saying about gravity in the sense that the macroscopic force we call gravity could actually be a physical m
anifestation of a more complex reality involving an aetheric energy or ZPE.  However, Dennard gives no real indication of this concept in his web pages.  This leads me to believe that Dennard thinks there is a surplus source of energy in the potential ene
rgy available in matter due to its relative vertical position that can be somehow endlessly tapped when matter falls downward within a gravitational field.  This is evidenced in his statements such as, "Gravity is accepted as a viable form of power in our
 hydroelectric technology and our understanding of the power in falling water due to gravity. The concept of rotating water due to the force of gravity is the idea behind Whirlpower .". 


I also want to apologize for my apparent "condescending" attitude toward Dennard.  While I am guilty of maybe having a little fun with my responses by interjecting a little humor or sarcasm, I never meant to demean him.  He is to be commended for being in
novative and bold.  I just think he needs to brush up on his knowledge of physics before developing a "dream inspired" concept to the degree he has.  I would have to say that my "off-color" attitude was a direct result of my needing to scramble for "damag
e control" due to the perceived misguided conclusions that were drawn as a result of Dennard's theory being compared to mine.  I need to be more careful in the future and avoid all "knee-jerk" reactions like that one.

Jerry Decker wrote:
* Time will tell who is right. For my money, I don't care who it is as
* long as we can all test it ourselves and use it for something practical.

While many will be able to test it for themselves, it is certainly more difficult to construct than what can be done in one's own garage.  If it were that easy, I would have succeeded in doing that myself.  Construction from scratch will require extreme p
recision that is simply not achievable to most of us who have ordinary shop tools.  Ultimately computer automated manufacturing techniques will make the technology affordable to everyone, though.

Thanks for reading.

Best Wishes,
ZPE
http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 19:07:58 1998
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        soojay compuserve.com, editor@infinite-energy.com, mica@world.std.com,
        CharlesPlatt <cp panix.com>,
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: How to avoid energy scams ( part 2 )
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At 5:53 PM 8/28/98, Conference Organisers wrote:
[snip]
>Now write out, with as much passion and exactitude, the same scenario of
>an inventor meeting an investor from the inventor's point of view, or
>for the inventor's benefit.  Defend the inventor this time.
>
>How is this guy with his over-unity doo-dah going to run the gauntlet of
>heavy-handed investors who want;
>
>• to take a turnkey operation off him,
>• buy it cheap, sell it high,
>• waste his time flirting around because they have noting better to do,
>• wanting to lay on him their 400 page contract,
>• screw him down to their 2.5% " industry standard " royalty,
>• attempt to prise open the box,
>• chip off a bit off to sample,
>• steal things from his lab,
>• back-engineer it,
>• set their 40 strong legal division on an overnighter to beat him to
>the patent office with the next 2 claim along the line,
>• start production in a foreign country,
>• employ him for 6 months and then promote him sideways,
>• shut down the division,
>• have him sign away all his intellectual property,
>• go bankrupt,
>• be part of division that is sold or bought over by another company
>owned by the parent company and dismissed or given a short contract,
>• tell him who to talk to and who not to,
>• pick up enough information from signal information or exhaust traces
>to work out what is going on inside,
>• to wriggle his way through Defense-related and National Security
>issues,
>• sink his start-up small company in a shares racket on the stock
>market,
>• watch a Germany subsidiary of a competitive company beat him to
>trademark it,
>• a South East Asian company bootleg it ,
>• exhaust him into submission and soul destruction by running him around
>with their demands,
>• have three experts bamboozle him in revealing secrets before he wants
>him,
>• deal with the sickenly patronising and inert attitude of " experts "
>and " World Leading Experts " of which there are already too many in
>this field,
>• Mata Hari seduce him in revealling more than his butt ( obviously this
>is open to some negotiation )
>• have some industrial or security related espionage befall him,
>• work on Military contracts when he may be a conscientious objector,
>• defend his ethical stand point,
>• live a normal life knowing his phone line is constantly monitored,
>• and in extreme case be threatened or attacked,
[snip]
>
>Ha ha ha ...  John Allan ;-)
>energy gold.globalcafe.co.uk

Say, that's a nice piece of work John Allen.  This is a another one of
those neat free energy and inventor lists that would be handy to have on a
web page somewhere.  It sounds like it might be advice based on personal
experience.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 19:22:04 1998
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	 <vortex-l eskimo.com>,
        "'vortexb-l eskimo.com'"
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Subject: My favorite charities...
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 21:25:41 -0500
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Greetings all!

Several have inquired as to what charities I am referring to in my earlier posts and I wanted to respond to that.  I must defer from naming specific charities due to the fact that many people reading this have different charities they think should benefit
 the most and I do not want to start ANOTHER pointless debate that our gracious list administrators will have to deal with.  Having said that, I will say that the charities of our choice are NOT any small special interest type causes that only a handful o
f radical people give their life savings to.  They are mainstream causes that currently enjoy donations comparable to most any charity.

Thanks for reading!

Best Wishes,
ZPE
http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 19:32:17 1998
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From: Charles Wilde <charles.wilde aton.com>
To: "'freenrg-l eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>,
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	 <KeelyNet DallasTexas.net>
Subject: RE: My favorite charities...
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 19:37:47 -0700
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This one did it.  I added ZPE to my Dilettante/SPAM filter list.  If
this turns out to be useful ZPE technology, I will no doubt here about
it CNN!

Charles

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 28 19:56:13 1998
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Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 22:59:33 -0700
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> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:09:00 -0500
> From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Placebo effect on PBS (fwd)
> 
> > From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
> 
> > The PBS news hour this evening featured an interesting segment on faith
> > healing style medicine which is now being practiced, and researched, in a
> > large hospital in New York. In one technique, a Chinese lady held her hands
> > over the patient's body and sensed a kind of aura, and she set aura straight
> > by moving her hands and reciting mumbo-jumbo as they wheeled the poor guy into
> > cardiac surgery.
> 
> This aura adjustment technique has me scratching my head. 

<snip>

What Jed observed is likely Reike Massage therapy.  You can learn more
about it at:

http://www.producers.ca/~rentme/reiki/reiki2.html

It has it's roots in Tibet and is over two millenia old.  I think we
should be careful in trying to debunk Reike.  I've never experienced it;
but, I know people who have.  We poo-pooed accupuncture and herbal
healing a few decades ago and now find them to be effective treatments.

It's good to keep an open mind as long as you don't let your brain fall
out.

Terry

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 23:06:19 -0500
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scott's run 10 (fwd)

>From: Bob Horst <bhorst loc1.tandem.com>

>Your message seems to imply that all of the gas recombined.  Were you
>able to determine that?

Yes, but only during the normal electrolysis "warm-up" part of the run.
Here's what I said in the report:

"Once the air had been purged from the cell during electrolysis warm-up,
the recombiner succeeded in reacting all of the exiting gases from the
cell. This was
dramatically demonstrated by a complete stoppage of bubbling in the gas
volume apparatus downstream of the recombiner and cold trap.

However, when we switched the cell into incandescent mode by raising the
voltage to ~150 volts, gas began to come through the recombiner, through
the cold trap,
to the gas volume apparatus and the bubbling resumed. Presumably this was
the "excess gas" observed but not isolated on previous runs. Interestingly,
the presence
of the excess gas made the periodic explosions stop.

Using a 500 cc graduated cylinder we collected all of the excess gas
generated by Run 10's incandescent period, which lasted only about 10
minutes. The total was
215 ml at 34° C (yes, it's hot in our lab).

We extracted some of the collected gas into a syringe and injected it into
a flame. It burned with the characteristic nearly-colorless flame of
hydrogen. Assuming it is
hydrogen, the collected quantity represents 8.5E-3 moles. If this H2 is
coming from the reaction W + 3H2O --> WO3 + 3H2 then 1/3 that many moles of
W had to
be consumed in the process. That's 2.8E-3 moles of W or .52 grams. In our
haste to rebuild the apparatus after Run 9 we forgot to weigh the
particular W rod used
in Run 10. However, it now weighs 0.46 grams less than our only remaining
unused W rod...pretty close to the predicted weight loss from the reaction
hypothesized
above.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 29 14:25:37 1998
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 02:56:12 -0400
From: Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED

Dear Vo:

Sorry. 
"F" should have read;
 
F./  Additional energy extraction from the recombination of any separated
H20 during the above energetic processes ..is another possibility  :-)

Best Regards,
Colin Quinney

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 02:45:11 -0400
From: Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: VORTEX MYSTERIES SOLVED

Dear Vo:

While reading the material at <http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe/>, I couldn't
help but wonder if this chap has something simple that really works.
I've been reading Vortex-1 for some time. I wasn't always bang-on in the
past, ..but as the "Eternal Optimist", I am going to once again stick my
neck out with just my imagination showing ..and try and *guess* what he's got.


A Ranque-Hilsch Vortex Tube [1] modified to separate a flow of ionized gas
into a positive stream and a negative stream.
The vortex tube is made with a non-conductive material. 
It contains central and peripheral electrodes for the extraction of DC. (MHD)
It uses pressurized steam instead of air.
 
A./  It uses "induction" for charge separation [triboelectricity] and a
working fluid of pressurized water vapor or steam.[more easily ionized] . 

B./  Ion rotation is at a minimum of 1,000,000 rpm (3) ..within the
electrically insulated vortex tube. 

C./  High angular momentum, and high centrifugal acceleration of the ions;
That, and the minimal distance between the rotating layers...taps into the
ZPE.[2] 

D./  Using an axial magnetic field for arc-quenching, and for enhancement
of the rotating ion flows.

E./  The "sound", or the "note" associated with Ranque-Hilsch Vortex Tubes,
may help to reduce fluid viscosity..(4)

F./  Additional energy extraction from the possible (inadvertent)
separation of H20 during the above energetic processes is another
possibility  :-)


Is there a prize? 8^)

Best Regards,
Colin Quinney


(1)<http://t-cockerill-pc.sunderland.ac.uk/rhvtmatl/>


(2)<http://www.socorro.demon.co.uk/casimir.htm>
         "Another recent idea is to replace the metal plates with plasmas.
The idea is that instead of having to pull the plasmas apart, you allow
them to collapse, and create a new set of plasmas, with which to start the
process again. This theoretically could allow you to extract energy from
the system. But this is, at present, no more than a theoretical exercise."


(3)<http://www.newmantools.com/vortex.htm>
         "....down the inner walls of the hot tube at speeds reaching
1,000,000 rpm"


(4)<http://www.gtri.gatech.edu/res-news/FRICTION.html>
         "Researchers at the Georgia Institute of Technology report in the
June 25 Journal of Physical Chemistry (Vol. B102, pp.5033-5037 (1998)) that
by rapidly oscillating the width of the lubricant-filled gap separating two
sliding surfaces, they can significantly reduce friction between them."

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Subject: gravity as a source of energy (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 09:13:25 +0100
From: John Collins <jcollins free-energy.co.uk>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: gravity as a source of energy

ZPE commented re.whirlpool URL:  Any person with even the most basic
education in physics knows that gravity is not energy.

Jerry Decker's comment - 
* I think the flow of gravity could be considered as a kind of energy
* because you can tap into it.  Flaky as some might see it, gravity IS
* more than probably a pushing effect and one day we will be able to
* prove it and use it, however at this point, I would in in no way say
* anything ABSOLUTELY isn't possible. 

Hydro-electricity taps gravity, my grandfather clock taps gravity, both of
them indirectly because gravity is a conservative force.  At school I was
told that as a conservative force gravity exhibits potential energy, but not
kinetic energy.  Potential energy is motionless force, kinetic energy is
force in motion.  A guy called Johann Bessler (aka Orffyreus) used kinetic
energy to drive a 700 lb wheel which ran continuously for 54 days, lifted
heavy weights and drove an archimedes screw for pumping water in 1712, but
he unfortunately called it a perpetual motion machine.  We all know that PM
is not possible in any practical sense (you can't get more out than you put
in) but a machine which derives its energy from gravity is not a PM machine
because it is receiving an input of energy (something a definition of PM
disallows).  If one man did it nearly three hundred years ago - we can do it
now.  His machine needed to be in motion before the effect took place.  His
machine therefore required kinetic energy to work.  So it did not infringe
the concept of gravity being a conservative force and therefore it is
perfectly possible to tap the force of gravity directly.  Any comments?

John Collins

John Collins

Author of 'Perpetual Motion; An Ancient Mystery Solved?' - for more
information and details on ordering visit my web site at
http://www.free-energy.co.uk

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 15:24:44 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: What will happen when a coil lost its conductance?

Hi All,

While a DC current passing trough the coil and the magnetic field is present, what will happen if the coil instantly lost its conductance?

If the magnetic field carry the energy, this energy could not be lost, whether it should be propagate like a magnetic shock wave (as on nuke explosions), or be transformed to an other form to energy. 

I don't know the magnetic shock wave of the nuke is generated when ions and other charge carrying components move on high speed (at beginning( or when they are lost and the magnetic field could not be sustained (at the end).

I think superconductors are able to do this job, when the superconductance forced to be lost by instantly applying a strong magnetic field to SC (1 - 2.5T). I think it will be an interesting experiment ( may shield the gravity or cause FE :-) ). Anybody h
eard about it?

Alternately, using auxiliary coils on the path of the magnetic field one can modify the path of the flux by applying counter fields, but due to inductance of the coils, this will be a slow process, but if one succeed to neutralize the self inductance of t
he coil by a ingenuous design or using the displacement currents, may obtain some results.
What do you think?

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 00:23:03 -1000
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Placebo effect on PBS (fwd)

Terry

>
>What Jed observed is likely Reike Massage therapy.  You can learn more
>about it at:
>
>http://www.producers.ca/~rentme/reiki/reiki2.html
>
>It has it's roots in Tibet and is over two millenia old.  I think we
>should be careful in trying to debunk Reike.  I've never experienced it;
>but, I know people who have.  We poo-pooed accupuncture and herbal
>healing a few decades ago and now find them to be effective treatments.
>
>It's good to keep an open mind as long as you don't let your brain fall
>out.
>
>Terry

And my girlfriend, who blew out her knee recently in the area of an old
skiing injury, has been in quite a bit of pain lately. Tonight she just
strapped on a magnetic wrap loaned by a firend and says the pain is
suddenly gone. Knee's still blown and she goes in for surgery next month
though. Hey, magnets work for pipes - why not all the little pipes inside
humans? Placebo? Maybe, but she's not hurting and it's not Vicadin<sp?>.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 29 14:29:39 1998
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 11:38:40 -0500
From: "Jerry W. Decker" <jdecker keelynet.com>
To: ZPE <zpe pdq.net>
Cc: KeelyNet DallasTexas.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: tongue in cheek

Hi ZPE et al!

I wrote:
>  The bottomline will be does it work when you guys get ready 
>  to share it, I don't think you'll get any funding or offers 
>  that are backed by real money, but if you do, congrats.  
>  Shareware, IMO, is the only way to go with technology or 
>  information that is PERCEIVED to be so dangerous.

To which you replied;
>>  Worst case scenario... it all becomes shareware on Oct 28th.  
>>  The only way we would accelerate this would be if we had some 
>>  kind of guarantee that we would not end up with ZERO compensation 
>>  when it's all said and done.  We have worked very hard over many 
>>  years with NO compensation.  Would you be willing to let it all 
>>  go knowing that all your work was in vain as far helping your 
>>  personal family and friends was concerned?

Let's think about this.  There are a lot of good hearted people out
there who have been searching for many years for JUST ONE working o/u
device that they can either buy or build.  As a result of this quest,
they have spent thousands, if not tens of thousands with no results, a
lot of smoke, a lot of scams, but no results.

Now, I've been in this mess for over 30 years and over the last 13 have
been public about it.  During that time, I have met or talked to
THOUSANDS of very sincere people and a few jerks.  Over the last three
years, I have often asked people, 'If someone offered plans or a kit for
a guaranteed working o/u device, would you support it, even if it was in
a shareware format?  

The answer has been almost always a yes, with the realization that TO
DATE, they've been lied to or misled with NOTHING to show for their time
or money.  

That is why I wrote up the SHAREWARE document;

    http://www.keelynet.com/share.htm 

hoping either it would be used as is or modified as seed material for an
inventor who had absolute confidence in their discovery and a great deal
of trust in people who want to see free energy in practical use.

Now, you have an opportunity to acquire funding as you are requesting or
failing that to post your info freely as you say you will on October
28th with NO RECOVERY OF ANYTHING of anything because you did not ask
it.

So, why not use the shareware or something like it either NOW or when
you release it.  It will secure YOU as inventor and will ensure the
entire construction details and that the entire story gets published as
you write it around the world and read by possibly hundreds of thousands
of people.

Once the information is out, has been proven and many are confident it
works as described, there will be no stopping it.  However, if you are
concerned about safety or privacy, I will offer to be your receiver and
retransmitter of correspondence in an anonymous fashion to protect your
identity, your choice and it can be anyone if you feel the need to do
that.

As I pointed out, once the information is out and proven, you will be
safe because what's the point of coming after the inventor except for
revenge...<g>...

You say you are concerned about some kind of financial reward, if you
release it freely, you certainly won't get that, if you release it as
shareware offering a post office box and asking people to freely
contribute if they found the info useful, you will I think be DELUGED
with money from GRATEFUL peers who have FINALLY seen something that
works.

Like I said in the shareware, what could anyone want with millions and
millions of dollars?  One million in trust at 10%, is that so hard to
live off of??  Many people and companies have begun as shareware and
made many millions.  This alt science hardware shareware is a different
take but the RESULTS can easily be the same.  

You also write about charities, do you realize that a working o/u device
technology, FREELY SHARED WITH THE WORLD, will change the lives of
EVERYONE in the entire world, you will be the single greatest charity
that ever was.

The beauty of it, all you do is post it.  One or more people verify it,
confirm it and the document or abstracts of it with you credited with
the discovery will be EVERYHWERE...you will be swamped with offers to
speak, awards, etc.. as well as JOB OFFERS since you are the obvous
EXPERT.

It's your baby and you want some cash as return, this is ONE way to do
it with the least effort on your part.  All it requires beyond creating
the exposition document is absolute confidence that it will work as you
say to produce o/u.  Post the thing EVERYWHERE so that it can be found
on multiple sites, even in lists and newsgroups in its entirety so it is
automatically mailed to the boxes...<g>...

I think people would be VERY FORGIVING of such an invasion if they knew
it was PLANS for a real working overunity device...

I know you can pillage my mailbox ANY DAY with that kind of information
and once I proved it, you'd get a check for anywhere from 100 to 500
from me in extreme gratitude and I'd be singing your praises for the
rest of my unnatural life...<g>...

Where I wrote to you;
>  There seems to be something going on with the hot to cold 
>  transition which can indeed be tapped, either by an 
>  accumulation of ambient heat that is converted or some kind 
>  of strange dropoff that occurs in the vortex implosion....

You replied with a most cryptic and intriguing statement that;
>>  As you know, I have a lot that I could say on this, but I have 
>>  to refrain from saying anything, otherwise I may not be able to 
>>  shut up. 8^)

To me, this sounds like there might be a nerve in this hot to cold
transition thing and I certainly would like to read your thoughts and
considered comments on this subject and whether is it a key to your
claim of being able to tap the vortex for o/u.

At any rate, since any inventor would be most appreciative of SOMETHING
to repay him his efforts and investment as well as some kind of
additional revenue, please consider if not the shareware as is, at least
a version of it.  

I KNOW there are many people out there who would send you a donation in
gratitude for your sharing of a real discovery that could be used.  It
probably won't last forever because many others will jump on it and
probably go far beyond what you even considered, that's just the way of
the world, but FOR NOW, get what you can.  

I also think you will be honored and acclaimed for the rest of your life
with all kinds of awards,  grants and offers of very well paid
employment.  

If I were head of a company or business group and read your shareware
release then had my techs build and prove it, I'd certainly think well
jeez, if this guy can figure this out on his own and on a shoestring
WHAT ELSE COULD HE DO when properly funded and given FREE REIN to
invent?  Wouldn't that just make you tingle to have such an offer???  Ah
well, my thrills might not be the same as yours...<g>..

At a conference a couple of years ago, some of us were discussing this
very thing and just at the table we were sitting at, out of 8 people, we
were willing to FREELY GIVE almost $1000 JUST TO SEE a verified working
o/u device.  We weren't asking to own it or know all the inside secrets,
we just wanted TO SEE ONE that ran by itself, openly and without fraud
and operated a load.  So I KNOW people will gladly contribute to such a
release.  

Good luck as always, I hope you consider this deeply because with your
plans as stated, you gain nothing, with shareware you at least GIVE
PEOPLE THE OPPORTUNITY to thank you in a financial sense which is what
you are wanting.  

As a close friend of mine once told me when I refused a small gift, "It
pleases ME that I can do SOMETHING for YOU".  I have learned from this
as I realize how it pleases ME to do something for someone ELSE in
appreciation and that they accept it knowing it is from the heart.
-- 
           Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker keelynet.com
         http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
      Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 10:02:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Big oops, moderation back on


Apparantly I was WAY too premature taking vortex-L off of moderation.
It's back on.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 29 14:30:48 1998
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 12:40:53 -0500
From: "Jerry W. Decker" <jdecker keelynet.com>
To: Alan Schneider <alansch zip.com.au>
Cc: KeelyNet DallasTexas.net, zpe@pdq.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com,
    freenrg-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Vortex patent

Hi Alan!

You wrote;
>  http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?patent_number=4407134
>  I don't think this patent is relevant, Jerry. It seems to be
>  a perfectly normal, "garden variety" Ranque-Hilsch vortex tube.
>  These things have been around for years. You can buy them 
>  off-the-shelf from at least two companies in the USA, easily
>  findable through a web search. They are used for refrigeration 
>  and for spot heating and cooling in industrial applications.
>  Alan

I looked at it and yes it is just a way of tapping vortex separated cold
and heat for air conditioning, but I do think it relevant because many
don't know anything about the vortex tube or how it works.  

Perhaps you or someone can provide URLs that would clearly explain the
process so that all may learn?  I know you can buy various vortex tubes
for about $200 from Abbeon-Cal and have tinkered with the idea of doing
so but not having an air compressor, never pursued it.

The problem with vortex tubes for air conditioning as I understand it is
they are EXTREMELY inefficient, requiring very large quantities of air
to produce the hot and cold...the beauty is they require nothing more
than the tube and high speed compressed air instead of heaters (if you
want hot air) and refrigerants (if you want cold air) which could be a
godsend in many applications or envirnments.

Now the trick about extracting energy from the vortex tube as this new
ZPE bunch is claiming is what we are all trying to figure out.  So maybe
its high time to post as many vortex and vortex tube urls on a single
email as possible so that everyone can get up to speed on what the
vortex tube is, what it does and how it works.

Dennard has one idea and links some of it to Schauberger.

With a recent reply from ZPE to an email I sent, he exhibits a peculiar
reaction about the hot to cold transition portion of the effect.  

Expansion produces cold, contraction produces heat.  The universe SEEKS
cold, the vacuum of space is intense cold so perhaps there is a vacuum
effect associated with this.

Remember the claims of Zelinksy and another weird machine that said you
could use a vacuum (Chernetskii also) to produce power from an arc or
spark gap struck in that vacuum.

Perhaps a vortex effect IN A VACUUM with a spark gap...since we don't
have a line on it with linear thinking, perhaps we should try LATERAL
thinking....<g>....whatever ends up with a working O/U device that we
could all USE would just tickle me pink...
-- 
           Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker keelynet.com
         http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
      Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 29 14:35:41 1998
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Vortex patent efficiency ? (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 13:12:56 -0500
From: "Jerry W. Decker" <jdecker keelynet.com>
To: leoguitar vossnet.de
Cc: freenrg-l <freenrg-l eskimo.com>, vortex-l@eskimo.com, zpe@pdq.net
Subject: Re: Vortex patent efficiency ?

Hi Stefan!

You wrote;
>  How about driving this Ranke-Hilsch tube with a fluid liquid
>  instead of just air ?   Would it help getting the efficiency 
>  better for heater or fridge usage ?

Isn't that the principle of 'hydrosonics' or am I mistaken and
hydrosonics is simply shearing of water molecules, though perhaps
enhanced by vortex action?

A closet or garage sized tornado chamber to run your house using air or
a fluid tank, now that's novel.  

Interesting that CLEM used cooking oil in his engine as at; 

   http://www.keelynet.com/energy/clem1.htm 
   and http://www.keelynet.com/energy/clem2.htm 

that was circulated in an apparent expansive mode, kind of a negative
vortex that allows the dissipation instead of the focusing of the
mechanical forces in the medium (air, water, cooking oil, etc.).  

The question then becomes where does the energy come from to create the
vortex IN THE FIRST PLACE OR is there some bizarre amplification effect
going on when a vortex expands to rejoin the mechanically attenuated
ambience of space?

If that is so, then a lot of devices would have been tapping into a very
basic principle, highly shrouded in doubletalk and mystique.

That being it takes a given amount of energy to create a vortex and
sustain it, but when the vortex expands, does it produce more energy in
that expansion than it took to sustain the vortex??

Is heat or cold related to this suspected phenomenon and if so, how? 
Does it only occur with certain geometries or mechanical setups which is
why it is not more widely reported?  Perhaps one of these off the shelf
vortex tubes with water or cooking oil running through it might yield
something unexpected, or do we blow it off with the 'known fact' that
viscosity will dissipate most of the energy of the moving fluid??

According to Schaubergers test at the high school were he used the
'twistor' tube it offered near negative resistance/viscosity, wanting to
suck the pump dry.  The same pump used on a straight tube could only
push so much fluid through it.  Have to dig out that EXACT story and
post it as a file unless someone knows the URL?
-- 
           Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker keelynet.com
         http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
      Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 29 14:36:22 1998
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: TO ZPE.....Please see FRIENDLY comment...And questions ... (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 16:49:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: ZPE <zpe pdq.net>, Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: TO ZPE.....Please see FRIENDLY comment...And questions ... (fwd)



	Comment???

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:40:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Conference Organisers <democracy gold.globalcafe.co.uk>
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Please see FRIENDLY comment...And questions ...


	Dear Vo.,

	first a bunch of cuts....

On Thu, 27 Aug 1998, Conference Organisers wrote:

	Who are the above?

----------------
state of art
> electrolysis is only 60% 

	How does one measure the 60%... or maybe a better question is how 
does the metric work?   EG:

	so many volts amps in.... and so much H and O out???
-------------

> experimental results at up to 115% from reputable scientific European
> research institutes.
> 

	Again.... 115% of what and how???
> 
------------
 Mr Meyer never claimed " over-unity ", what ever that might
> mean.  He did however state that the values of the water had changed and
> its energetic levels were reduced by processing in the Water Fuel Cell.
> 
	What are 'energetic values of water' ??

	If the energetic values are REDUCED ... isn't that sort of "going 
backward" ??? 

> John Allan
> energy gold.globalcafe.co.uk
> 
> 


	Please put the answers to these questions in as close to layman 
terms as possible, and also please use watts, volts, amps, Joules and so 
forth.... so we can all try to be on the same page....


				Thanks,

	PS:  Questions about water electrolysis are directed to ALL, not 
just vo....

				JHS
				
	


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 29 14:36:33 1998
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: *********ANNOUNCEMENT OF DEMONSTRATION!******** (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 11:14:10 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: *********ANNOUNCEMENT OF DEMONSTRATION!******** (fwd)

At 07:58 PM 8/28/98 -0700, you wrote:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------

>        *****************************
>        COME AND SEE IT FOR YOURSELF!
>        *****************************
>
> Date: ***** SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 12, 1998 *****
> Time:           2:00PM (Pacific Time)
>Place:             PHOENIX, ARIZONA
>
>     Specific site location in Phoenix:
>As  of the time of this  announcement, the site
>details are being arranged;...

OK, I'm in. I live in Scottsdale, right next to Phoenix. I will go see this
demo if the location is posted to this list (Vortex-l)  in time and IF it
is FREE. I will tell you all what I see. I will also be watching the
Arizona Republic in the next couple of weeks to see if there is any local
publicity for this event.

--Lynn Kurtz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 29 19:26:54 1998
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Subject: What will happen when a coil lost its conductance? (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 15:24:44 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: What will happen when a coil lost its conductance?

Hi All,

While a DC current passing trough the coil and the magnetic field is present, what will happen if the coil instantly lost its conductance?

If the magnetic field carry the energy, this energy could not be lost, whether it should be propagate like a magnetic shock wave (as on nuke explosions), or be transformed to an other form to energy. 

I don't know the magnetic shock wave of the nuke is generated when ions and other charge carrying components move on high speed (at beginning( or when they are lost and the magnetic field could not be sustained (at the end).

I think superconductors are able to do this job, when the superconductance forced to be lost by instantly applying a strong magnetic field to SC (1 - 2.5T). I think it will be an interesting experiment ( may shield the gravity or cause FE :-) ). Anybody h
eard about it?

Alternately, using auxiliary coils on the path of the magnetic field one can modify the path of the flux by applying counter fields, but due to inductance of the coils, this will be a slow process, but if one succeed to neutralize the self inductance of t
he coil by a ingenuous design or using the displacement currents, may obtain some results.
What do you think?

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 29 19:29:42 1998
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 01:23:32 GMT
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scott's run 10 (fwd)

On Sat, 29 Aug 1998 14:24:40 -0700 (PDT), William Beaty wrote:
[snip]
>hydrogen. Assuming it is
>hydrogen, the collected quantity represents 8.5E-3 moles. If this H2 is
>coming from the reaction W + 3H2O --> WO3 + 3H2 then 1/3 that many moles of
>W had to
>be consumed in the process. That's 2.8E-3 moles of W or .52 grams. In our
>haste to rebuild the apparatus after Run 9 we forgot to weigh the
>particular W rod used
>in Run 10. However, it now weighs 0.46 grams less than our only remaining
>unused W rod...pretty close to the predicted weight loss from the reaction
>hypothesized
>above.
Hi Scott,

My doco says that the electronegativity of W is higher than that of H
(in fact higher than platinum). This implies that W is essentially a
noble metal, so one might expect the energy of formation of the oxide
to be less than that of water. I.e. the hydrogen producing reaction
may be endothermic. Perhaps this is worth checking.



Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 29 19:29:51 1998
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 15:43:14 -0700
From: Ross Tessien <tessien oro.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: gravity as a source of energy (fwd)

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 09:13:25 +0100
>From: John Collins <jcollins free-energy.co.uk>
>To: vortex-L eskimo.com
>Subject: gravity as a source of energy
>
>ZPE commented re.whirlpool URL:  Any person with even the most basic
>education in physics knows that gravity is not energy.
>
>Jerry Decker's comment - 
>* I think the flow of gravity could be considered as a kind of energy
>* because you can tap into it.  Flaky as some might see it, gravity IS
>* more than probably a pushing effect and one day we will be able to
>* prove it and use it, however at this point, I would in in no way say
>* anything ABSOLUTELY isn't possible. 
>
>Hydro-electricity taps gravity, my grandfather clock taps gravity, both of
>them indirectly because gravity is a conservative force.  

No they don't.  Hydro does not tap into energy from gravity.  It taps into
energy from the sun heating and vaporizing the water.  The grand father
clock taps into the energy of your hand that wound the spring, and your hand
tapped into energy from the sun that grew plants.

Those things do not tap into gravity as an energy source.  They use gravity
as a means of converting the energy that was deposited by the nuclear
reactions in the core of the sun.

The comments above, deal with literally tapping into the energy of gravity
as a source of energy.

To understand this, you can study the Casimir cavity where the wave energy
(zero point energy if you prefer, or QVF if you prefer, or aether wave
turbulence if you prefer as I do) on the outside is greater than the wave
energy on the inside of the cavity.  Thus, the plates are pushed toward one
another.

The question for gravity is not whether it is a push or a pull.  It is
obviously a push from wave energy arriving from deep space above.  To
imagine that gravity is a pull you have to close your eyes and consider
force fields to be magic.  To consider gravity to be an interference and a
push away from wave energy arriving from space allows you to ponder the
inherent nature of the beast.

When you do, it becomes obvious that if you could deflect the wave energy,
then the downward thrust would be changed in amplitude.  And thus, you could
in principle build a paddle wheel that just sits like a Ferris Wheel and
spins, driving a generator, all from the differential reflection of the
incident wave energy coming from above.  You make the "chairs" on one side
reflect or deflect the incident energy and you make the chairs on the other
side do the opposite.  Ergo, a differential thrust.

In Japan, they demonstrated that a completely closed box with a spinning
wheel "weighed" a different amount depending on which way the wheel was
spinning, CW or CCW.  If you cause the "chairs" on one side of the wheel to
spin one way, and then reverse as they go past bottom and past top, then you
have a machine that can produce energy.  The amount of energy depends on how
much incident wave energy you can deflect.

This has absolutely nothing to do with hydro power, or with grand father
clocks.  "Gravity", or more correctly the wave energy incident from space
sent out by "particles" resonances and by the buzzing of spacetime in the
distant cosmos, IS, a potential source of energy.  But it isn't free.  It
isn't "zero point" mumbo jumbo.  It is just a bunch of noise in the ocean we
live in.  There is nothing mysterious about it save for our silly notion
that the earth pulls us down.  That is where the lunacy is.  

Our present notions of forces are as silly as thinking that the earth is at
the center of the universe, and that we need to use a different equation to
describe the motions of each "traveling star".  Rather, all we needed was to
recognize the correct dynamic geometry and put the sun at the center.  

When Newton demonstrated gravity as a possible pulling force field, Le Sage
demonstrated that the mathematics were identical whether you considered
gravity to result from a pull, or a push.  It is only our perception where
we are fooled by our eyes which look at what we see, rather than contemplate
all that is involved.  We tend to ignore the distant universe for some reason.

When you see a cloud blown around with your eyes, you aren't fooled into
thinking that clouds are magical are you?  You know that the atmospheric
winds in the transparent air is what is causing the clouds to change shape.
Why then is it so hard to understand that matter, is not out there alone in
emptyness.  It too is being pushed around by interactions with waves, and in
certain cases outside of stars and galaxies and black holes, with flow.

Ross Tessien


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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 22:43:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, Jerry <jdecker@keelynet.com>
Subject: Re: tongue in cheek (fwd)

y


	Dear Jerry and all....

	 I feel you have said well ... now I ask all.... SHAREWARE included

	a]  even if not 'ou'
	b] if a little less oil and old dead dinos burned
	c] shoot for the stars but be WILLING to run on your skateboard...


			Are any of the various collective "YOU" ... and 
opposes the the lower case 'them' ....

	
Willing and ready to accept better????    

	If you REALLLY have been working O U ... then you must have a 
LITTLE better...


			Yes????

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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Maxwell's Quarternians (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:24:46 +0000
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech ix.netcom.com>
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com, KeelyNet@DallasTexas.net,
<snipped large TO-list>
Subject: Maxwell's Quarternians

I recently discovered that Maxwell's equations are really an incomplete
version of the his theory. The equations are Oliver Heavyside's
interpretation of Maxwell's work. Maxwell's did not have those equations in
any of his writings. The theory was originally expressed with quarternian
mathematics. Heavyside was not familiar with this math and did not
understand the higher dimensional concepts. After Maxwell's passing,
Heavyside simplified the theory to the equations we have today. In the
process, he left out over 200 quarternians. Only the 1873 first edition of
"Treatise of Electricity and Magnitism" has the original quarternian math.
The following page has an account of this event in more detail:

http://www.enterprisemission.com/hyper1a.html

There is a digital edition of Maxwell's bio at:

http://sonnetusa.com/aj_c.htm

I am interested in obtaining a copy of Maxwell's first edition of
"Treatise..." and posting a digital edition on the web in a similar manner.
I have located these volumes in the rare books section at Harvard, however
they do not allow photocopying there. If anyone out there is able to locate
these volumes at a reasonable cost, I will put the effort into posting them
on a web site. Collaborators on this project would be most welcome.


Towards a Better Future
Dennis
Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 07:54:38 1998
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Subject: Re: gravity as a source of energy (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 00:00:23 -0500
From: "Jerry W. Decker" <jdecker keelynet.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: jcollins free-energy.co.uk, KeelyNet@DallasTexas.net
Subject: Re: gravity as a source of energy (fwd)

Hi Ross et al!

John Collins wrote;
>  Hydro-electricity taps gravity, my grandfather clock taps gravity,..

Ross Tessien replied;
>  No they don't.  Hydro does not tap into energy from gravity.  
>  It taps into energy from the sun heating and vaporizing the water.  

Wrong Ross, hydropower is the flow of the water that is being pushed by
the downflow of gravity (or the attraction to the earth, your choice),
how the water got up there is another matter ENTIRELY.

Ross also wrote;
>  The grand father clock taps into the energy of your hand that 
>  wound the spring, and your hand tapped into energy from the sun 
>  that grew plants.

Granted, correct on that one, the hand did store the energy in the
spring that is released by the motion of the pendulum, the rest is
semantics.

The point John was making is IMO absolutely correct, gravity influx can
be tapped, no sense in nitpicking it to death.  The trick is how do we
tap it in a solid state form that would act like a paddlewheel in a flow
of water whether it be a stream moving to sea level BY GRAVITY, or a
waterfall running off a precipice under the flow of GRAVITY.  

Hardware wins, not there yet, which is why we need to stay focused on
HOW, moreso than WHY.
-- 
           Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker keelynet.com
         http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
      Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 07:56:13 1998
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Subject: Re: What will happen when a coil lost its conductance? (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 21:25:28 -1000
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: What will happen when a coil lost its conductance? (fwd)

Hamdi -

   >  I think superconductors are able to do this job,
   >  when the superconductance forced to be lost by
   >  instantly applying a strong magnetic field to SC (1
   >  - 2.5T). I think it will be an interesting
   >  experiment ( may shield the gravity or cause FE :-)
   >  ). Anybody heard about it?

I've wondered about the Woodward effect in connection with SCs. If an SC is
carrying a large amount of energy in its current, and that energy is being
removed within some volume of the mass at regular points or intervals, then
there could be some mass fluctuation disturbances - if Woodward is right.
Don't have any idea if that would create a field of effect or shielding
even in that case though.

I wish someone would duplicate that Woodward thing. The attempted
'replication' posted to Pete Skeggs' site doesn't cut it.



- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 07:56:48 1998
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Subject: Re: Scott's run 10 (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:04:48 -0500
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scott's run 10 (fwd)

>From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

>My doco says that the electronegativity of W is higher than that of H
>(in fact higher than platinum). This implies that W is essentially a
>noble metal...

Does it?  I thought maybe the elements at the extreme ends of the
electronegativity scale (either + or -) were the most reactive.  I have
generally found W to be rather active...fresh surfaces oxidize quickly in
air, etc.

>...one might expect the energy of formation of the oxide
>to be less than that of water. I.e. the hydrogen producing reaction
>may be endothermic. Perhaps this is worth checking.

Another quote from the Run 8,9,10 report on our web site:

"The calorimetric results of Run 10 are displayed in this
plot. As you can see from the Ein and Eout traces and
the displayed total values for Ein (222474 joules) and
Eout (214102 joules), the final energy balance again
shows a shorftall...this time about 4%.

Is this energy shortfall explained by the 215 cc of H2 gas
we collected? The formation of WO3 from W and O2 is
exothermic and yields 841,000 joules/mole. To get the
necessary O2 for one mole of WO3, however, 3 moles of
H2O have to be dissociated and that costs 858,000
joules. Thus the hypothesized reaction is only slightly
endothermic and, for the quantity of WO3 formed in this
run, would absorb only ~50 joules. The observed
shortfall is ~8,000 joules."

A more likely cause of the shortfall is..."

To see the rest of this cliffhanger, go to:

http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/run8910.html


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 07:56:50 1998
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:30:14 +0100
From: John Collins <jcollins free-energy.co.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: gravity as a source of energy (fwd)

Hi Ross and all,


>>Hydro-electricity taps gravity, my grandfather clock taps gravity, both of
>>them indirectly because gravity is a conservative force.  
>
>No they don't.  Hydro does not tap into energy from gravity.  It taps into
>energy from the sun heating and vaporizing the water.  The grand father
>clock taps into the energy of your hand that wound the spring, and your hand
>tapped into energy from the sun that grew plants

Maybe it was a bad example but I wasn't talking about where these things
obtained their energy from, I was using them to demonstrate that we use them
to provide us with energy in such a way that we tap their energy at a point
in the cycle where they are reacting to gravity i.e. water is issuing out of
a dam wall and we tap it at that point.  The grandfather clock was wound by
my hand but it then drives its mechanism by the force of gravity on its
weights.  And the reason I used hydro power and the clock was because
neither of these tap gravity DIRECTLY - the same point that you were making.

The point is that these examples are ultimately driven by gravity.
Bessler's wheel was also driven by gravity but he missed out one step.  He
designed and made a mechanical arrangement which allowed a weight to fall
away from the centre of gravity during its falling phase and pulled itself
inwards during its rising phase.  This exhibited two beneficial forces.  One
was obviously its reaction to gravity - it fell, the second was caused by
the fact that the weight was pulled in at one part of the revolution, this
would not only have the effect of lessening its pull in comparison to the
falling weight, but would also create an acceleration in the speed of
revolution.  This is similar to what happens when an icedancer spins and
brings her hands in towards her body or raises the upwards together - her
rate of spin increases.  The only reqirement for this action to take place
was that the whole structure had to be in motion, no matter how slow at the
start.  Once it began to move it accelerated to its normal running speed.
This, as I said before, removes the issue of whether a machine can derive
its energy from gravity because gravity is a conservative force.

I understand your point about push and pull, Ross, but it is irrelevant in
this case.  Either way Bessler's wheel worked and even if you reverse the
action of gravity it still applies with the same results. 

Thanks Jerry for getting to the nitty gritty.  I often suffer from
circumlocution - I think? 

John Collins




John Collins

Author of 'Perpetual Motion; An Ancient Mystery Solved?' - for more
information and details on ordering visit my web site at
http://www.free-energy.co.uk

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 07:57:17 1998
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:43:07 -0500
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: What will happen when a coil lost its conductance? (fwd)

>From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>

>While a DC current passing trough the coil and the magnetic field is
present, what will happen if the coil instantly lost its conductance?

Interesting, Hamdi.  If you make only a small section of the coil
non-conductive, then the collapsing magnetic field will generate a large
voltage across the non-conductive section, which will start an arc
discharge that will allow the current  to flow so the magnetic field can
continue to exist...until all its energy is dissipated in the arc.

However, if you make the entire coil non-conductive leaving only the
conductors that led up to the coil, it seems like the magnetic field would
be unable to sustain itself in the manner above....unless somehow it
creates a spiral arc discharge between the two remaining conductors that
approximates the original coil shape!!!!   That seems too fantastic...but
maybe that's exactly what would happen!?

Anyone who claims to understand electromagnetics perfectly obviously doesn't.

Scott


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 07:57:40 1998
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 09:14:43 -0700
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Oscilloscopes

All:

I'm new to dealing with o-scopes, but I need one to determine signal
transit time over a distance of about 300 feet. I can't buy a new dual
trace/input scope, so I'm buying a used one. The question is, which of
the following would work for detecting signal transit time (accurately)
over 300ft?

Phillips PM-3217: 50 MHz dual channel, portable light weight, Dual time
base, Can be powered from 21 to 27VDC source or 120VAC, 7nS rise time
pulse transitions.
Minor cosmetic defect 

Phillips PM-3240: 100 MHz dual channel, portable light weight, Dual time
base, 7nS rise time pulse transitions. Missing plastic bezzel ( no
effect on operation ) 

Tek 453: Portable 50MHz dual channel oscilloscope, 5mV/Div sensitivity,
Delaying time base, Rectangular CRT, Great condition!

Tek 465: 100MHz portable dual channel oscilloscope. 100MHz Tektronix
probes included with purchase

Thanks,
Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 09:47:46 1998
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From: "R. Wormus" <rwormus lock-load.com>
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CC: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 10:46:09 -0600
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Subject: Re: Maxwell's Quarternians (fwd)
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Hello Vorts,
Lots of information relating to Physics using Quarternian math is available at:

    http://world.std.com/~sweetser

use the Quarternian Physics Link.

Ron

On 30-Aug-98, William Beaty wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:24:46 +0000
> From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech ix.netcom.com>
> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com, KeelyNet@DallasTexas.net,
> <snipped large TO-list>
> Subject: Maxwell's Quarternians
> 
<SNIP>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 09:49:48 1998
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To: "Meat Truck" <mnorris akron.infi.net>
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Magnetic cement vs. Searl rollers.
Cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com, KeelyNet@DallasTexas.net, vortex-L@eskimo.com
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Dear Meat;


This is going to be hard to believe. I just fowarded Jed Rothwell's "Dennis
Lee's Lament" (from Vortexb-L) to Professor Searl.  Jed's message is a good
account of how investors interpret behavior of inventors when evaluating
their prototype for purchase. Right now, the technical people he's working
with, and are buying his books, are attracting R&D funding but they are not
sharing the money, nor are they consulting enough with, Professor Searl.
They were able to make a roller that will orbit a plate, but there are
stress cracks in the material and they will have to go up a square for
better strength. I wrote that perhaps he would be interested in Jed's
businessperson perspective message. I said that it would be an honor if he
might consider hanging out on our email forums a bit (Vortex-L, Freenrgy,
KeelyNet, etc.). Then I decided to check for new email one more time... I
read your last message right after I click the send button. Personally I
kinda respect Professor Searl and I'm concerned about the vein they pulled
out of his leg. But even if I didn't like the guy, I would reserve my
opinion until I had read everything he had to say about his technology.
There are (God willing) 20+ volumes that are in the planning to be published
in the series. The situation you describe might be compared to a second
grade reading level trying to understand Shakespear. I'll buy what you got
if you don't want Professor Searl's books. Since they are used, what do you
think will be a fair discount?



At 03:48 PM 8/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>This reminds me of a time long ago and forgotten by many. It was after
>school in 1963 and I was watching "Wagon Train" at Darlene Krusinski's. I
>didn't know then how things worked but when I watched the wheel it went
>forward, and then backwards. Little could I ascertain that the projector
>was showing phasing interactions. Incredible as it sounds over a quarter of
>a century later while asleep during a repeat episode of wagon train a
>bird,precisely a robin came to my window and repeatedly pecked until I had
>awakened.

There you go; this could be God himself trying to tell us to cool it! ;)

>In that precise moment was the episode that made me remember what
>was said. It sort of came back to haunt me.But in a realization is the fact
>that magnetic imprints must surely follow suit with rotation. If the
>frequency is sufficiently high in cohered fields such a multi-pole 
>wagon-wheel illusion imprint could be made on a rotating part.

I have produced a ceramic disk magnet with what looks like a bubble under an
iron filings type of magetic field viewer. So I remembered what Bob Grey
said about perpendicular forces that magnetic bubbles produced when exposed
to an ambient opposing magnetic field. I pushed a similar disk magnet with a
normal field pattern right over the treated magnet which was laying flat on
the table. Seeing the bubble magnet scoot right out the side was a
surprising and memorable moment! Am I sure that this is a demonstration of a
key effect of the Searl device? I'm optomistic but there are no conclusions
yet, just a possible indication. I do think that the process was fun, and
exciting though. I discovered this accidentally while I was trying to
determine the magnetic polarity of a pulse from a coil.

>Dreams are
>hard to come by especially from birds. Maybe this is a bird brained
>idea.Nevertheless I always remember the sweet times with Darlene in my
>young age of misunderstanding.
>

It was such an adventure back then, wasn't it? :)


Dennis

You're in the 'zone' when: time flies by - following your nose - in focus -
figuring things out - not worried about anything - having a great time -
getting great stuff done - without really trying. The creative artistic
state? Could (should?) the goal be the process?
Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

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Dennis C. Lee wrote:
 
 I recently discovered that Maxwell's equations are really an incomplete
 version of the his theory. The equations are Oliver Heavyside's
 interpretation of Maxwell's work. Maxwell's did not have those
 equations in any of his writings. The theory was originally expressed
 with quarternian mathematics. 

Hi Dennis,

Do you have any web references for doing quarternian
mathematics?

Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 10:47:18 1998
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To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, lasmanos@earthlink.net, formanfarm@aol.com,
        jsmith pelican.state.lib.la.us, pmurray@leschaco.com,
        abcdrowland uswest.net, skmurray@sph.umich.edu,
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Subject: Murray: Y2K Japan 8.30.98
References: <35264687.3AFB earthlink.net> <352A9E40.6D14@earthlink.net> <3542C3C3.46BD@earthlink.net> <3547A50B.798D@earthlink.net> <354E473D.3D75@earthlink.net> <354F100E.28DF@earthlink.net> <354FED10.7841@earthlink.net> <35667107.67A9@earthlink.net> <35
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Sunday, Aug. 30, 1998

Hello family and friends,  I want to share a few items these weeks about
the challenges of Jan. 1, 2000, when many computers and embedded
microchips will fail globally, due to antiquated date software.  Much
good information is at www.year2000.com, especially a daily menu of 10
or 20 articles from the world press.  It is very difficult to grasp the
nature and extent of this crisis.  Perhaps it is already impinging in
the current global stock market correction.  It might be prudent to take
all money out of stocks, if a global depression is in the works.  

http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/ctd350.htm      8.27.98

TOKYO -- Most listed companies in Japan are still unprepared to
prevent their computers from failing when the millennium arrives,
the Tokyo Stock Exchange said Thursday.
Of the 1,549 companies that replied to a survey conducted by
the TSE, 1,258, or 81%, say they are still trying to reprogram
their computer systems to protect themselves from the
glitch, known as the Year 2000, or Y2K, problem.


It is an ernormously complex, lengthly, and expensive undertaking for a
large organization to assess and correct this problem.  Sixteen months
for many leaves just enough time to have only essential systems ready.
So, we can expect economic slowdown next year, as effort and money has
to be focused globally on this confusingly complex challenge.  Major
difficulties in one economy affect all others.

Rich Murray
Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103
rmforall earthlink.net

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From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: gravity as a source of energy (fwd)
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>Hi Ross et al!

Greetings:

>
>John Collins wrote;
>>  Hydro-electricity taps gravity, my grandfather clock taps gravity,..
>
>Ross Tessien replied;
>>  No they don't.  Hydro does not tap into energy from gravity.  
>>  It taps into energy from the sun heating and vaporizing the water.  
>
>Wrong Ross, hydropower is the flow of the water that is being pushed by
>the downflow of gravity (or the attraction to the earth, your choice),
>how the water got up there is another matter ENTIRELY.

Not to be challenging, but it is not wrong.  There is a fundamental
difference between the situation of the hydro plant, and the situation of
the hypothetical Ferris Wheel.  It speaks to the origin of the energy you
are tapping into as I explain below.

"Gravity" today, is NOT a source of energy.  Gravity is a force we can use
to derive energy from matter that is "UP HILL" by allowing it to move down
hill and slowing it down against a turbine or something.  The source of
energy, though, was the thing that got whatever it is up the hill in the
first place.

This speaks to the core of the laws of thermodynamics.  For example, suppose
I had a Ferris Wheel.  And on each chair is a Tampere spinning HTSC disc
that interacts somehow with gravity.  Then, I spin it one way on side A, and
I flip it some different way on side B where A is the side coming down, and
B is the side going up.

By changing the *apparent* mass of the disk, I set up a condition where the
Ferris Wheel will spin and drive a turbine and GENERATE, power to be used
elsewhere, including using it in the process of flipping the HTSC motions to
alter their apparent gravitational mass.

the distinction is, with a device like this you are in fact deriving energy
from **gravity** itself.  And not from allowing some object to move through
the gravitational potential in a one way path.  the origin of the energy in
Hydro, is the sun, period.  that is what put the water up on the mountain.
All the hydro plant does is to convert the energy that is already there from
gravitational potential energy into electrical potential energy which can
then be pumped through the lines and used elsewhere.


>
>Ross also wrote;
>>  The grand father clock taps into the energy of your hand that 
>>  wound the spring, and your hand tapped into energy from the sun 
>>  that grew plants.
>
>Granted, correct on that one, the hand did store the energy in the
>spring that is released by the motion of the pendulum, the rest is
>semantics.

If you grant this one, then you should also grant the above one because the
sun is the "hand" that is "winding" the water up the hill for the turbines
to use.

>
>The point John was making is IMO absolutely correct, gravity influx can
>be tapped, no sense in nitpicking it to death.  The trick is how do we
>tap it in a solid state form that would act like a paddlewheel in a flow
>of water whether it be a stream moving to sea level BY GRAVITY, or a
>waterfall running off a precipice under the flow of GRAVITY.  

Yes this is the point.  but the two experiments have nothing to do with one
another.  In one case, you just use the energy that is there and the force
we all know exists.  In the other case, you must alter the gravitational
mass of the objects on one side of the Ferris Wheel (one of many conceivable
devices) as compared to their gravitational mass on the other side so that
there is always a net force down on one side that exceeds the net force down
on the other side.

Altering the gravitational mass is something that doesn't even appear in any
other form of conversion of potential energy, ie, hydro.  And it is the only
way that you will "derive energy" from the gravitational field itself.

this isn't semantics, there is a difference ;-)

Ross Tessien


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Greetings:

I read your description of Bessler's wheel.  If you are saying that it runs
forever and even accelerates and outputs energy as it does, then that is a
perpetual motion machine, but I see you have written a book about that so I
assume this is what you are saying has been built.  I studied all of those
different ways to pull things in and extend them out and spin it up and slow
it down etc. during my studies toward an engineering degree.  

I am convinced, that no such mechanical device exists, or ever really
existed, ie, worked as billed.  I am fully aware that thousands of people
have actually built one thing after another thinking they have figured out
how to skin a cat.  I have even discussed several ideas with people who have
come to my shop to build these things.  None of them, I am positive, really
worked.

Now, if I am wrong, then they did something to alter the gravitational
potential on one side as compared to the other side.  And nothing anyone has
done to date has done that in the form of a PMM.  

That said, if you put a bunch of the devices the Japanese built (that
demonstrated a change in gravitational mass) onto the Ferris Wheel I
mentioned, and had some way to change the rotation (ie, the seat flips
upside down as it passes bottom and top), then you might just have a stab at
a real device that taps into gravity.  the problem would be that the
friction in all of the bearings would far exceed the energy you could tap into.

So, with the latest state of the art technologies, we still cannot build a
viable PMM.  And believe me, I have thought a lot about it, and have some
ideas about how to proceed using state of the art technologies.  But
nothing, repeat nothing I have ever read leads me to conclude there is even
the tiniest glimmer of hope for a PMM using pulleys and wheels etc.  That is
all hocus pocus, IMO.

I am positive you have a number of examples from your book you can toss at
me, but then where is the web site showing the thing running, real time,
perpetually??  If I could construct such a device, I would certainly be on
television and in the news.  It isn't that hard to do, really.  But you have
to have a device in order to get their attention and the thing must really work.

Ross Tessien


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 12:58:55 1998
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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In a message dated 8/30/98 7:58:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, billb eskimo.com
writes:

> All:
>  
>  I'm new to dealing with o-scopes, but I need one to determine signal
>  transit time over a distance of about 300 feet.

  <<snip>>

>  Thanks,
>  Kyle R. Mcallister

Kyle,
I have used  both the Tek 453 and the 465 in my job as computer mainframe
tech now for almost 30 years. Both are excellent instruments, the 465 having
faster sweep and a bigger screen. Both easy to use. Go for the 465 if you 
can afford it.

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas Nevada

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 13:46:13 1998
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On Sun, 30 Aug 1998 VCockeram aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 8/30/98 7:58:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, billb eskimo.com
> writes:
> 
> > All:
> >  
> >  I'm new to dealing with o-scopes, but I need one to determine signal
> >  transit time over a distance of about 300 feet.
> 
>   <<snip>>
> 
> >  Thanks,
> >  Kyle R. Mcallister
> 
> Kyle,
> I have used  both the Tek 453 and the 465 in my job as computer mainframe
> tech now for almost 30 years. Both are excellent instruments, the 465 having
> faster sweep and a bigger screen. Both easy to use. Go for the 465 if you 
> can afford it.

Well, the 465's been around for years , and their kinda fun (I used to
love playing with delay) but it appears that Kyle wants to get on with
timing experiemnts where some kind of storage capability might come in
handy . There are some pretty interesting Digital Storage scopes which
interface with a PC and with these he could capture a waveform and send it
out as an email attachement if he happens to get any "FTL" effects with
his experiments. These scopes which do without a CRT (your computer screen
displays the waveforms) run between 3 & 4 hundred including software,
which is about what I think a 465 would run and are available from supply
houses such as MCM. The sampling rates and resolution are pretty high with
these (about 10 ns/div) , so if he's measuring across 300 ft like he
mentioned thats 30 divisions (way more than necessary). 

Just a suggestion. The storage capability is worth considering if you want
to publish your screenshots on a website or something  , otherwise you
need a scope camera - 

Jim Ostrowski




> 
> Regards,
> Vince Cockeram
> Las Vegas Nevada
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 13:49:36 1998
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Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 23:43:35 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Scott Little wrote:
[snip]
> 
> However, if you make the entire coil non-conductive leaving only the
> conductors that led up to the coil, it seems like the magnetic field would
> be unable to sustain itself in the manner above....unless somehow it
> creates a spiral arc discharge between the two remaining conductors that
> approximates the original coil shape!!!!   That seems too fantastic...but
> maybe that's exactly what would happen!?

If you have a simple loop of wire carrying a current, when it is destroyed, would it make a closed loop of arc ?

I think the solution would be same as Eddy currents, emf resulted by collapsing the magnetic field would form large numbers of current small loops of arc. but, as the current prefer to follow the arc path when once formed, there will form few arc loops in
stead of Eddy loop is a linear conductive medium. Maybe such discharge could be obtained easily on low pressure atmosphere, which would be called induction lamps. 

What will be most interesting is if you succeed such a collapse in the vacuum where there is no current carriers? Is there a way to pass current where there is no charges, no electron, no ions?	This is maybe a hypothetic experiment because it needs the ma
terial be removed, nothing should remain except vacuum. Maybe in this case the magnetic energy will transform to electric field and reverse, generating oscillation, a vacuum resonator will form. It seems the generated electromagnetic oscillation not need 
to radiate as waves and may remain in stationary form. Even they can form electron-positron pairs! Nature is very creative  and innovative :-), If there is no current carrier but it is needed (when the magnetic field collapse), nature create them at emerg
ency!

Maybe this scheme gives clues about the structure of electrons, their topological nature.



> Anyone who claims to understand electromagnetics perfectly obviously doesn't.
> 
> Scott

Yes... Things are going to be very complex even in a simple problem. What is always keeping in my mind is the "knot" topology. I discovered it (by myself) when I was child, and I was amazed the orthogonal relation of the curve with itself and its 3D  orth
ogonal symmetry. Escher incredibly well revealed these relations in it drawing "Knots" (Cat. no 444). This orthogonal relations seems to me to satisfy a self sustained electromagnetic field, forming a knot, instead of propagating as a wave. Obviously, thi
s not only me who think such a solution, many physicists are attracted by the knot topology in the past.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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Thanks much Ron and Dennis for the links you gave. In my turn, I have Tony Smith's pages at http://tony.ai/ where there are lot of good stuff.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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At 11:00 AM 08/30/98 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:

>That said, if you put a bunch of the devices the Japanese built (that
>demonstrated a change in gravitational mass) onto the Ferris Wheel I
>mentioned, and had some way to change the rotation (ie, the seat flips
>upside down as it passes bottom and top), then you might just have a stab at
>a real device that taps into gravity.  the problem would be that the
>friction in all of the bearings would far exceed the energy you could tap
into.
>


Obviously, Ross has never used a drill to spin up a bicycle wheel. All 90
degree torque applied to the axis rotates the axis 90 degrees from it's
original reference frame and also 90 degrees from where you intended it to
go. Do not force it; it does this without any strain to the bearings. If
you do this several times, the wheel will be counter rotating. 


Colin Quinney

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 Dennis C. Lee wrote:
 
 > I  recently  discovered  that  Maxwell's  equations  are really an
 > incomplete version of the his theory.  The  equations  are  Oliver
 > Heavyside's  interpretation  of  Maxwell's work. Maxwell's did not
 > have those  equations  in  any  of  his  writings.  The  theory  was
 > originally  expressed  with quarternian mathematics. Heavyside was
 > not familiar with this math and  did  not  understand  the  higher
 > dimensional   concepts.   After   Maxwell's   passing,   Heavyside
 > simplified the theory to the  equations  we  have  today.  In  the
 > process,  he  left  out over 200 quarternians. Only the 1873 first
 > edition  of  "Treatise  of  Electricity  and  Magnitism"  has  the
 > original quarternian math.
 
 I visited the website you mentioned and lo and behold we  discover
 the  site  appears  to be a collaboration between Richard Hoagland
 and guess who - Tom Bearden!
 
 Not  that  one  should  discount it just for that reason , but the
 text does sort of  ramble  in  the  typical  Bearden  style  about
 "scalar" fields and potentials with very little if anything in the
 way  of  practical  experiments one can perform in order to verify
 any of this stuff!
 
  There  are  very few people who can handle quarternion math and I
 unfortunatly am not among them . Mendel Sachs can but I doubt very
 much if he would give Bearden or any of his theories the  time  of
 day.   On  the  other  hand he has been a great help in guiding my
 efforts  with  the  Sansbury  experiment  and  dealing  with   the
 logically  inconsistent  idea  (promoted  by  a  lot  of so-called
 "mainstream  physicists")  that  the  advanced  solutions  to  the
 Maxwell equations are somehow "unphysical" - nonsense !
 
  As to Heaviside his  transmission  line  equations  derived  from
 Maxwell  are  usefull  for  just  that  - transmission lines , but
 unfortunately inadequate or beside the  point  when  it  comes  to
 apprehending the difference between  signalling via open or closed
 systems.
 
  As to the argument that by simplifying Maxwell  Heaviside  did  a
 general  disservice to the development of technology this is true!
 But as far as I know (and I admit to knowing very little  when  it
 comes to practical applications of "Bearden Technology") it's only
 true because in this simplification process the advanced solutions
 were  cast  aside  and  given the appelation "unphysical" due to a
 misunderstanding of how "causality" works in a  closed  system  of
 mutual interactions.
 
  However  ,  if  the  so-called   "Biefield   Brown   Effect"   is
 ever replicated...hmmm , maybe Bearden has something after all !
 
 Never say never.
 
 Jim Ostrowski
 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 15:20:28 1998
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*** Forwarded message, originally written by _Anton van Straaten_ on 30-Aug-98
***
This article makes a common fundamental mistake when it comes to dealing
with the quantum vacuum.  Ignoring the details which are primarily used as a
smokescreen, the basic idea of the quantum vacuum is that the *potential*
for particle creation exists everywhere in the universe.  It's a huge leap
from this to the idea that information can somehow be communicated through
that potential, thus explaining telepathy.  This is rather like saying that
because the potential exists for manufacturing cars out of metal, that I can
drive across town on a pile of iron ore.

Even ignoring that gaping logical hole, another problem with the idea that
the quantum vacuum might act as a nearly instantaneous communications medium
between all our brains is, what's the targeting mechanism?  There are 5
billion-odd human brains on the planet - if they're all encoding data into
the quantum vacuum, which is nearly instantaneously transferred everywhere
in the universe, it seems like it could be hard to extract any meaning from
the result.  Perhaps that's why psi isn't very reliable??

Reliability - and repeatability - is a key issue here, as in all science.
The human brain is not a very good mechanism to use in a laboratory as part
of the test apparatus - it's bad enough when all it does is try to interpret
the results!  Instead, before speculating about the relationship of quantum
vacuum hypotheses to telepathy, it would make more sense to build a simpler
transmitter-detector system to test the hypothesis that communication of any
kind via the quantum vacuum is possible at all.  Unfortunately, it probably
isn't.

Although, if it were, the inventor could become extremely wealthy - if she
wasn't assassinated first - since it would have the potential to make
obsolete all the current wired and wireless forms of long-distance
communication.

There are other more specific scientific and logical flaws in the article  -
see my next message.

Anton <anton appsolutions.com>


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 15:22:14 1998
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*** Forwarded message, originally written by Anton van Straaten on 30-Aug-98
***
The Laszlo article uses a common device used by such writings, which is to
allude in passing to many real scientific theories and papers in order to
lend an air of credibility to its speculation.  Unfortunately, it neglects
to describe the ways in which the very theories being mentioned preclude the
effects being speculated on.  Here are some examples of this and other
demonstrably incorrect lines of reasoning in the article.

1.  The "famous EPR experiments" mentioned deal with the ability of each of
a pair of particles linked via quantum interaction, to "communicate" certain
aspects of their state with their counterpart, instantaneously across a
distance.  However, the quantum theory which proposes this also precludes
the effect from being used to communicate information beyond the pair of
particles.  So it can't be used as a communication medium between devices,
not even complex ones like our brains.  This isn't an arbitrary limitation,
but a fundamental one which is a consequence of the structure of quantum
theory.

2.  A major area of wooly thinking inherent in the article is the
implication that an exploitation of the quantum vacuum might almost sneak
under the radar of observable reality, i.e. it could explain how two minds
could communicate without exploiting any otherwise observable physical
phenomenon.

This is pure logical, philosophical, and scientific nonsense.  If minds can
communicate telepathically at all, the only way in which this can be
demonstrated is by observation of some kind.  Such (reliable and repeatable)
observation would be proof of the phenomenon in question, and presumably its
manifestations in other forms could be detected and proven.  This would mean
a new observable phenomenon had been discovered, which could take its place
alongside electromagnetism, gravity, etc.

Whether or not this new phenomenon is caused by or arises from the quantum
vacuum is irrelevant.  The quantum vacuum is a big red herring here.  It's
not logically possible to use it as an explanation for anything we can't
otherwise detect or prove.

The only real argument that emerges unscathed from this is the following:
since some people believe that a telepathic effect exists, and since no
explanation for it has yet been found (which casts doubt on the effect's
existence), perhaps an explanation will be found in future, in the form of a
new observable phenomenon.

This argument doesn't require the quantum vacuum, except from the
perspective that since the relationship between the quantum vacuum and
observable phenomena is not fully understood, the possibility exists for new
effects to be discovered.  We didn't need the quantum vacuum to tell us
that, though.

3.  A related theme is that various (all?) observable phenomena, such as
inertia, matter, mass, and gravity, might arise out of the quantum vacuum.
This is used as a way of attributing a kind of reality to the vacuum, which
is then used as the basis to speculate on how the vacuum itself might be
directly exploited for other purposes.  As described above and in my earlier
message, direct exploitation of the quantum vacuum is nonsensical - it can
only be exploited indirectly via observable effects that it may be
responsible for.  The article's description of the various ways in which the
quantum vacuum might generate observable phenomena is nothing more than
irrelevant, misdirectional fluff, once again typical of writings which
attempt to create the appearance of a logical argument, without the
substance.

4.  As an aside, the article contains a fundamental misunderstanding of the
zero-point field and quantum vacuum phenomena: "The zero-point field of the
quantum vacuum is a "Dirac-sea": a sea of particles in the negative energy
state."  Based on earlier statements, the author is saying that the quantum
vacuum is a sea of virtual antiparticles.  This is incorrect - as commonly
accepted, it is a sea of both virtual particles and their antiparticles.
Their virtuality has nothing to do with being in a negative energy state.
In fact, it's incorrect to talk about them being in any state.  The
potential for the spontaneous creation of particles in either positive or
negative states exists at every point in the universe.

In fact, talking about a sea of virtual particles tends to generate an
unfortunate misconception - that those virtual particles somehow have an
independent existence and therefore can be utilized for everything from cold
fusion to telepathic communication.  As I've said, it's a huge leap from
saying that the potential for particle creation exists everywhere in the
universe, to the idea that information can somehow be communicated through
that potential.

* * *

In summary, the article repeatedly makes a common error, which has been
pointed out to little avail by physicists everywhere: "The behavior of the
microworld appears paradoxical only when we insist on applying to it
concepts from the macroworld that have no meaning at the elementary
level." - from "The Unconscious Quantum: Metaphysics in Modern Physics and
Cosmology" (see http://www.phys.hawaii.edu/vjs/www/localepr.html)

Also from the above page: "One cannot simply speculate about possibilities,
but must check the numbers. Much of pseudoscience is qualitative
hand-waving. Until a concept can be made quantitative, or at least put on a
firm logical foundation, it is not science."

While I realize the article isn't intended to be a formal scientific paper
(especially since it wasn't written by a scientist), even as
semi-journalistic speculation it contains many glaring problems and errors
of logic and science, while ignoring problematic areas of the theories it
tries to exploit.

I think speculation of this kind can be very interesting and useful, as
exemplified by the book quoted above, but not if it selectively applies
logic and science to create an illusory argument.

Anton <anton appsolutions.com>



*** Info and archives at http://www.aquathought.com/mind-l
*** To leave the list, send "unsubscribe" to mind-l-request aquathought.com

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 16:11:52 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scott's run 10 (fwd)
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 23:12:10 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <35e9dbc8.322716411 mail-hub>
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[snip]
>From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
[snip]
>joules. Thus the hypothesized reaction is only slightly
>endothermic and, for the quantity of WO3 formed in this
>run, would absorb only ~50 joules. The observed
>shortfall is ~8,000 joules."
[snip]
Oops, looks like I've been caught shooting from the lip again ;(.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 16:17:20 1998
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Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes (fwd)
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	Dear Kyle,


	Any good 2 channel 50 meg scope will do fine.... buy the best 
price VS condition tradeoff.  Phillips and TEK both are good.


On Sun, 30 Aug 1998, William Beaty wrote:

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 09:14:43 -0700
> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com
> Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Oscilloscopes
> 
> All:
> 
> I'm new to dealing with o-scopes, but I need one to determine signal
> transit time over a distance of about 300 feet. I can't buy a new dual
> trace/input scope, so I'm buying a used one. The question is, which of
> the following would work for detecting signal transit time (accurately)
> over 300ft?
> 
> Phillips PM-3217: 50 MHz dual channel, portable light weight, Dual time
> base, Can be powered from 21 to 27VDC source or 120VAC, 7nS rise time
> pulse transitions.
> Minor cosmetic defect 
> 
> Phillips PM-3240: 100 MHz dual channel, portable light weight, Dual time
> base, 7nS rise time pulse transitions. Missing plastic bezzel ( no
> effect on operation ) 
> 
> Tek 453: Portable 50MHz dual channel oscilloscope, 5mV/Div sensitivity,
> Delaying time base, Rectangular CRT, Great condition!
> 
> Tek 465: 100MHz portable dual channel oscilloscope. 100MHz Tektronix
> probes included with purchase
> 
> Thanks,
> Kyle R. Mcallister
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 16:28:26 1998
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From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: gravity as a source of energy (fwd)
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>At 11:00 AM 08/30/98 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
>
>>That said, if you put a bunch of the devices the Japanese built (that
>>demonstrated a change in gravitational mass) onto the Ferris Wheel I
>>mentioned, and had some way to change the rotation (ie, the seat flips
>>upside down as it passes bottom and top), then you might just have a stab at
>>a real device that taps into gravity.  the problem would be that the
>>friction in all of the bearings would far exceed the energy you could tap
>into.
>>
>
>
>Obviously, Ross has never used a drill to spin up a bicycle wheel. All 90
>degree torque applied to the axis rotates the axis 90 degrees from it's
>original reference frame and also 90 degrees from where you intended it to
>go. Do not force it; it does this without any strain to the bearings. If
>you do this several times, the wheel will be counter rotating. 
>

Colin;

I am not certain why you would think that was "obvious" from my comments.  I
am a mechanical engineer, own a machine shop, and have built racing bicycles
where we did everything we could to minimize bearing friction, tire
friction, aerodynamic drag, etc etc.  I have conducted coast down tests and
instrumented the fairing clad bicycles with data acquisition storage systems
to compute all of the frictional components by separating them into
polynomials and deriving the coeficients for each component of drag
individually.

You, are no doubt, not away of the really puny amount of change to the
apparent gravitational mass of the Japanese experiment.  That tiny amount of
change in the weight of the device was detectable, barely.  But it would not
serve as a way to build a device to derive energy from gravity because in
your system you will have many losses.

When was the last time you turned on a drill, and then turned off the power
and it kept spinning for days?  When have you ever spun up a bicyle wheel
and seen it coast for days?  My point was, that it may one day be feasible
to build such a device, but not with the puny gravitation effect reported in
the Japanese experiment.

Ross Tessien






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 17:55:50 1998
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Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 03:48:27 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Finally! Is at http://www.vif.com/users/apeiron/current.htm

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 19:10:57 1998
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At 04:28 PM 08/30/98 -0700, Ross wrote:

>>Obviously, Ross has never used a drill to spin up a bicycle wheel. All 90
>>degree torque applied to the axis rotates the axis 90 degrees from it's
>>original reference frame and also 90 degrees from where you intended it to
>>go. Do not force it; it does this without any strain to the bearings. If
>>you do this several times, the wheel will be counter rotating. 
>>
>
>Colin;
>
>I am not certain why you would think that was "obvious" from my comments.  I
>am a mechanical engineer, own a machine shop, and have built racing bicycles
>where we did everything we could to minimize bearing friction, tire
>friction, aerodynamic drag, etc etc.  I have conducted coast down tests and
>instrumented the fairing clad bicycles with data acquisition storage systems
>to compute all of the frictional components by separating them into
>polynomials and deriving the coeficients for each component of drag
>individually.


Hi Ross,

I now have a much healthier respect for your knowledge in that field.
However, I was referring only to the tiny amount of torque required to
change the axial orientation. When you wrote about the amount of friction
in the bearings necessary to achieve that, it just might have been my
mistaken assumption that you had never done that particular experiment,
based on your choice of phrasing. The first time I did that particular
experiment, it totally amazed me how little energy it took to completely
reverse spin direction. I see now however, that you were referring to the
*total* friction vss existing output energy ratio. 


>
>You, are no doubt, not away of the really puny amount of change to the
>apparent gravitational mass of the Japanese experiment.  That tiny amount of
>change in the weight of the device was detectable, barely.  But it would not
>serve as a way to build a device to derive energy from gravity because in
>your system you will have many losses.
>


I am aware that the Japanese (Hideo Hyasiki's (sp?)) experiment showed a
measured amount of only several milligrams weight loss, but didn't it also
show that the weight loss was linear with the RPM ...and that he operated
it at relatively low RPM?


<snip>My point was, that it may one day be feasible
>to build such a device, but not with the puny gravitation effect reported in
>the Japanese experiment.


Designed efficiently at much higher RPM, is it really a stretch to imagine
an advanced something engineerable today, Ross? I believe a more
significant thrust could easily be  achieved today with composite materials
in the Japanese invention. Perhaps also a design change utilizing E. J.
Jeong's "bowl" or "funnel" shape, rather than Hideo's flat disc would also
improve it. I am not an engineer, though. Someone else would have to do the
design and math cad.
 
There are probably other modifications that others can suggest who are a
lot smarter than I am. Wasn't there a European patent with a rotating
charged cylinder that indicated a kind of gravitational interaction or
thrust? Has anyone here actually tried that? What happens when you combine
the best features of various experiments?

And all I am saying is, lets see what we can do *now*. Does anyone here
know of a replication of the Japanese experiment at much higher RPM? What
was the result?

Best Regards,

Colin Quinney.
( The Eternal Optimist..)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 20:26:27 1998
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Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 23:21:36 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Maxwell's Quarternians (fwd)
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This was in another message:

http://world.std.com/~sweetser

It's a pretty good sight.

Dennis



At 11:54 AM 8/30/98 +0000, you wrote:

>Hi Dennis,
>
>Do you have any web references for doing quarternian
>mathematics?
>
>Jack Smith
>
>
>
Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 20:51:36 1998
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Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 22:39:33 -0700
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
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Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes (fwd)
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VCockeram aol.com wrote:

> Kyle,
> I have used  both the Tek 453 and the 465 in my job as computer mainframe
> tech now for almost 30 years. Both are excellent instruments, the 465 having
> faster sweep and a bigger screen. Both easy to use. Go for the 465 if you
> can afford it.

What is the sampling rate of the Tek 465? I will be transmitting signals
that will take 300nano-seconds to go from transmitter to reciever
(they'll be bounced off a metal reflector). Can the Tek 465 determine
with good accuracy signal send/recieve at that rate? (in other words,
can it measure accurately down to 300nSec?)

Thanks,
Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 21:04:52 1998
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Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 23:57:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
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Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes (fwd)
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y

	Dear Kyle,

	My suggestion is to NOT use a digital scope.  You will be 
comparing phase or decoded phase on CH A and CH B

	300 n sec is about 33 megs.... easy to see on 50 meg scope.

On Sun, 30 Aug 1998, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

> VCockeram aol.com wrote:
> 
> > Kyle,
> > I have used  both the Tek 453 and the 465 in my job as computer mainframe
> > tech now for almost 30 years. Both are excellent instruments, the 465 having
> > faster sweep and a bigger screen. Both easy to use. Go for the 465 if you
> > can afford it.
> 
> What is the sampling rate of the Tek 465? I will be transmitting signals
> that will take 300nano-seconds to go from transmitter to reciever
> (they'll be bounced off a metal reflector). Can the Tek 465 determine
> with good accuracy signal send/recieve at that rate? (in other words,
> can it measure accurately down to 300nSec?)
> 
> Thanks,
> Kyle R. Mcallister
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 21:31:12 1998
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From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: gravity as a source of energy (fwd)
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>Hi Ross,
>
>I now have a much healthier respect for your knowledge in that field.
>However, I was referring only to the tiny amount of torque required to
>change the axial orientation. When you wrote about the amount of friction
>in the bearings necessary to achieve that, it just might have been my
>mistaken assumption that you had never done that particular experiment,
>based on your choice of phrasing. The first time I did that particular
>experiment, it totally amazed me how little energy it took to completely
>reverse spin direction. I see now however, that you were referring to the
>*total* friction vss existing output energy ratio. 

Correct.  you must over come the total friction of the system.  Otherwise,
you are just clanging a gong that no one will care about.  And no device
known to exist today can provide enough of a change in gravitational mass to
do that.  So there is no device today that could be used to **derive
energy** from, gravity.


>
>I am aware that the Japanese (Hideo Hyasiki's (sp?)) experiment showed a
>measured amount of only several milligrams weight loss, but didn't it also
>show that the weight loss was linear with the RPM ...and that he operated
>it at relatively low RPM?

I never saw the paper itself, only the abstracts, and I don't recall what
was said.  I just latched onto the fact that they seemed to believe that
they had in fact altered the gravitational mass.  That, is all I need to
hear.  It is supposed to be impossible, and so if you can do something a
little, then with a better design you can do it more.

I would be surprised if there wasn't a lowest cut off rpm though.  If you
study turbulence in fluid journals, you will find that the laminar to
turbulent flow regimes are very repeatable.  I think you are dealing with
the wave energy exchanged from the entire lattice of atoms involved, and
that at certain rpm you wind up with it being impossible for the atoms to
follow the normal path due to wave interference with the entire lattice.  

ie, it isn't bizarre quantum mechanical hocus pocus, rather, it is just that
the wave lattice interference pattern is fluttering and so for the atoms to
move in seemingly chaotic directions occurs because those are the
straightest paths through the local "spacetime" so to speak.  But I am using
the term loosely here according to how my models would use the term, and not
in accord with normal GR terminology.  Todays ideas cannot address these
concerns because they do not treat the wave nature of particles as
resonances.  String theories will eventually do it, but only after they
recognize that strings are silly geometries to use to describe 4D phenomena.  

They should link 3 of the dimensional resonances together so that you have
pulsating spheres as Kelvin did in the 1870's.  Then, combine them with a
FitzGerald like vortex sponge for spacetime (spin foam as they sort of call
it, though that structure isn't really the same).  then, with those two
together you can make some headway.

But you must recognize that mass, means, "amount of aether" associated with
the resonance.  Then, you can go study the stars such as T-tauri, and FLIERs
to name two kinds that demonstrate aether blasting out of the surface of a star.


>Designed efficiently at much higher RPM, is it really a stretch to imagine
>an advanced something engineerable today, Ross? I believe a more
>significant thrust could easily be  achieved today with composite materials
>in the Japanese invention. Perhaps also a design change utilizing E. J.
>Jeong's "bowl" or "funnel" shape, rather than Hideo's flat disc would also
>improve it. I am not an engineer, though. Someone else would have to do the
>design and math cad.

No one is going to design it using CAD programs that use todays theories
equations.  You cannot do it that way.  You must recognize that matter is
composed of resonances in and of, aether, and not particles with our made up
force fields.  Force fields are today's equivalent of the Ptolemaic
equations used to describe each individual traveling stars motions from the
Earth centric view point.

Particles are not at the center of the universe.  The energy that drives
their resonances resides out in the universe.  They do not possess "fields".
Fields are the result of the wave energy converging into the knot, or resonance.

But don't fear, we will build those devices.  Just not like they think.  It
isn't geometry, entirely.  You need to get the atoms to surf their own
distortions to the local spacetime.  You need to build, an aether turbine.
If they don't do it, I will.  Time and money are all it will take, and it
appears the money is getting closer.

As for higher rpm, I would be pretty certain they went up to as high as they
could without blowing the thing up.  There are guys building high rpm
turbines as energy storage devices.  So they take it up to as much rpm as
the materials can sustain.  No wierdness reported.  Though they aren't
building the thing for this purpose, and aren't looking for this sort of result.

Ross Tessien

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 21:33:19 1998
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From: energy gold.globalcafe.co.uk (John Allan)
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Subject: How to build a simple hydrogen car for less than $10k
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Gentlemen,

How to build a retro-fit on board electrolysis hydrogen powered car.

Just to clarify a couple of points;

• I wanted to use the example of a simple retrofit on board hydrogen
powered car to illustrate the limited nature of Mr Rothwell's scientific
and technological thinking process, buried as it is in pejorative
twists, accusation, inaccuracy, confrontation and - if all that fails -
aggressive abuse [ e.g., Rothwell's invitation that one," buggers off
"].

This is an important archetype to study because this type of prejudiced
mindset is one that is commonly confronted while acting as a proponent
of our field of interest. [ The Randi-Maddox-Murray principle ].

A low psychological tone is inevitably self-defeating and one should
never be disturbed if it temporarily attracts support of its own kind.
It lacks the energy to sustain itself and is highly reactive in nature.

[ e.g., Horwood, " Put up or shut up ".  Mallove, " over puffed,
obstinate, cipher, biggest wastes of bandwidth... ". Manning, "
destructive mo......... ". ]

• No offer to sell a Meyer's type Water Fuel Cell was ever made, nor
would it have been lawful to have done so.

Mr Rothwell stated it was impossible to build an on board electrolysis
hydrogen powered car that drove for a minimum of 16 km.

He is wrong.

He also stated that there is no source of energy in an automobile except
for a battery.

And again, he is wrong.

A car absorbs a fair amount of solar energy, generates electricity on
board and stores inertia as it drives all of which convert happily into
an excess of energy for the job being requested.

All I intended to do, to take his $10,000 from him, was stick a rack of
PV cells on the roof and some very under-unity cells in the back, roll
the car into the sun, generate 3-5lbs pressure of gas through a propane
carb and off I would have gone with his money.  Of course, naturally
recognising him as being a bad sport with no sense of humour and less
honour, I did not trust him to give me the money afterwards. Hence the
contract and escrow account.  Fair enough deal I thought?

So, I hope that redeems my reputation to some degree and would like an
apology for all that loathsome cat-calling.


Forked tongues I've dealt with before but " whiteman listens with forked
ears ", Mr Rothwell.

                              ======================

• Offer of a DC high voltage electrolyte free water splitter still
stands.

• Request to make public Infinite Energy files and video records on
various scientists *repeated* - now that one has dismissed the sexual
allegations to have come soley from " The Princess " [src: Dr E
Mallove].  Perhaps others feel that they too would like to have access
to these valuable sources?

                              ======================

Best wishes,

John Allan
energy gold.globalcafe.co.uk







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------ =_NextPart_000_01BDD4B5.2D8FA680--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 22:21:47 1998
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Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 22:21:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
Reply-To: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes (fwd)
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On Sun, 30 Aug 1998, John Schnurer wrote:

> y
> 
> 	Dear Kyle,
> 
> 	My suggestion is to NOT use a digital scope.  You will be 
> comparing phase or decoded phase on CH A and CH B


> 
> 	300 n sec is about 33 megs.... easy to see on 50 meg scope.
> 



How is Kyle going to see a single shot transition on an analog scope
without save and store ? 300 ns is a pretty short interval for the eyes to
catch and a video camera would be about as bad.

 With a digital you just set the trigger level and save on trigger.

And if your looking at repeating waveforms a digital should work just as
well as an analog , particularly with the oversampling at 3.3 mhz (watch
those decimal places ,John) .  

What's the problem?

Jim O.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 30 23:41:31 1998
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Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 01:41:17 -0500
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Gnorts Ross et al!

You wrote;
>  <snip> And no device known to exist today 
>  <snip> So there is no device today that could 
>  be used to **derive energy** from, gravity.

Is that absolute?  Speaking for all humankind as did the
following..<g>..perhaps somewhere in the world there might be wonders
none of us know about.  Perhaps the one(s) who have 
such knowledge and fantastic technologies have learned to NOT 
let the world know of their advances?  

Famous Quotes that were also in error and promote open mindedness:

  "It is better to ask some of the questions than to know 
   all of the answers."

  "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." 
     - Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895

  "Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future scientific 
   advances. - Dr. Lee De Forest, vacuum tube inventor & father of TV 

  "Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons." 
   - Popular Mechanics, forecasting the march of science, 1949 

  "If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment. 
   The literature was full of examples that said you can't do this." 
   - Spencer Silver on the work that led to 3-M "Post-It" Notepads

  "Not doubt, 'certainty' is what drives one insane." 
   - Friedrich Nietzsche

  "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." 
   - Oscar Wilde

  "The universe doesn't have laws, it has habits. And habits can be 
   broken."

  "Why not go out on a limb? Isn't that where the fruit is?"
   - Frank Scully

And of course, the greatest faux pas ever written (IMO);
 
  "Everything that can be invented has been invented." 
   - Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899. 
-- 
           Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker keelynet.com
         http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
      Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 31 00:24:44 1998
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From: John Collins <jcollins free-energy.co.uk>
Subject: Re: gravity as a source of energy (fwd)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 08:27:04 +0100
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Hi Ross,

At 11:00 30/08/98 -0700, you wrote:

>I read your description of Bessler's wheel.  If you are saying that it runs
>forever and even accelerates and outputs energy as it does, then that is a
>perpetual motion machine, but I see you have written a book about that so I
>assume this is what you are saying has been built.  I studied all of those
>different ways to pull things in and extend them out and spin it up and slow
>it down etc. during my studies toward an engineering degree.  
>
>I am convinced, that no such mechanical device exists, or ever really
>existed.

Yes I said that a PMM had been built, but I also said that it wasn't what we
would regard as a PMM, because by definition a PMM machine is such that,
once having been started, it will run for ever with NO additional input of
energy.  Clearly Bessler's machine received energy in the form of falling
weights powered by gravity so it wasn't technically a PMM although it was
what he and everyone else meant by the term.  I am convinced ( as are a
number of other people) that Bessler's machine was genuine, worked and is
replicable now.
>
>Now, if I am wrong, then they did something to alter the gravitational
>potential on one side as compared to the other side.  And nothing anyone has
>done to date has done that in the form of a PMM.

I agree that that is what Bessler did and even though no one appears to have
succeeded since, I'm sure that it is only a amatter of time before someone
else does it.  
>
>That said, if you put a bunch of the devices the Japanese built (that
>demonstrated a change in gravitational mass) onto the Ferris Wheel I
>mentioned, and had some way to change the rotation (ie, the seat flips
>upside down as it passes bottom and top), then you might just have a stab at
>a real device that taps into gravity.  the problem would be that the
>friction in all of the bearings would far exceed the energy you could tap into.

Friction in Bessler's wheek is not the issue - it raised great weights,
propelled other machinery etc. friction was obviously overcome easily and
had no detrimental effect on the performance of the device.

>I am positive you have a number of examples from your book you can toss at
>me, but then where is the web site showing the thing running, real time,
>perpetually??  If I could construct such a device, I would certainly be on
>television and in the news.  It isn't that hard to do, really.  But you have
>to have a device in order to get their attention and the thing must really
work.

I wish I could do all that Ross, but having arrived at sufficient evidence
to confirm in my own opinion, that Bessler was genuine, I was still left
with the question - how?  I have now demonstrated to my own satisfaction
that such a machine does not infringe Newton's or anyone else's laws, all I
lack is the precise mechanical arrangement!  Believe me if I had, that you
would indeed see me on TV!

John Collins
John Collins

Author of 'Perpetual Motion; An Ancient Mystery Solved?' - for more
information and details on ordering visit my web site at
http://www.free-energy.co.uk

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 31 00:43:45 1998
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From: David Jonsson <David Bahnhof.Se>
Subject: Academic proof of altered half-life
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I just heard on the radio here in Sweden that a researcher at Uppsala
University, Birger Fogelberg, has succeded in altering the half-life of
Thorium 229 M. 

Maybe someone could look deeper into this? The man can be reached at
Birger.Fogelberg studsvik.uu.se He is active at the Department of Neutron
Research at Studsvik. Phonenumber is +46-155-22 18 42

I just sent him an email asking for more info and informing him of the
rumors on internet about transmutation.

This is a big topic in Sweden. $3 billion are funded for a solution to the
nuclear waste problem in Sweden only.

David


David Jonsson  Phone +46-18-24 51 52              Fax +46-18-24 51 56
Uppsala        Cellular GSM +46-706-339487        E-mail David Bahnhof.se
Sweden         Web: http://www.bahnhof.se/~david  Postgiro 499 40 54-7

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 31 02:11:04 1998
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Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 02:35:58 -0700
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August 31, 1998

Peter Gluck sent to Vortex, as an attachment, a letter he sent to Bill
Beaty who expressed an opinion on the Potapov devices in his own post.

As I gather from the letter, Potapov and his vortex devices are doing
well and now being funded by 'western funding' to distribute (sell) the
devices. I wonder to what the funding amount this group is putting
foward. And who are the group members (still secret?)? 

It seems the Potapov's vortex applications are very similar to what
Griggs have applied his Hydrosonic Pump. Most notably, for Griggs, water
treatment and heating. The exception with Potapov is his claim to
generating electricity with his Quantum Thermo Electric Generator. A
'self sustaining' device according to past claims.

Now with the soon upcoming public HungExpo '98 in Budapest, we can
observe a properly running Yusmar and the Quantum Generator. So much
more accessable then Moldavia. This can greatly help settle the question
of the validity of the vortex o/u claims. The o/u claims can be proven
there, along with other reliable running data on the devices.

I will not touch upon the past disappointment in the U.S. with one of
the devices (incomplete Yusmar) except to say that here is an open
chance to attend the HungExpo '98 and observe (and test) properly
running o/u devices. And perhaps to talk with Potapov (through an
interpreter). 

But whatever opinions that may be formed there, Potapov seems to have
the wherewithal to continue foward in his business expansion. Time to
check it out?

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 31 07:39:52 1998
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To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, KeelyNet@DallasTexas.net, vortex-L@eskimo.com
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech ix.netcom.com>
Subject: I just talked to Searl
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Hi;

I just talked to Professor Searl. Guess what? He's getting married! Also I
really underestimated how much he values his prototypes. A plate with a
matched roller that can self revolve around the plate is $1,000,000.00. So
far 600,000,000 pounds has been spent world wide. He sounds well and in good
spirits.

Dennis
Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 31 08:44:32 1998
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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: I just talked to Searl
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To: Vortex

Dennis C. Lee reports that Prof. Searl is getting married. How nice!
Congratulations to him. Dennis adds:

     I really underestimated how much he values his prototypes. A plate with
     a matched roller that can self revolve around the plate is
     $1,000,000.00.

I do not think he will find any customers at that price.


     So far 600,000,000 pounds has been spent world wide.

On his device?!? That's dreadful! I hope it is not true. Apparently they have
nothing to show for the money, because they are not selling anything. It
sounds like the hot fusion program.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 31 09:10:37 1998
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Subject: Re: Inc W. Run 8,9,& 10 (fwd)
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At 05:03 PM 8/28/98 -0700, Scott Little wrote:

>The total quantity evolved matches reasonably well the quantity of W
>removed from the rod if you assume that the W is being oxidized with O
>taken from H2O molecules.
>
>Again the energy balance fell somewhat short...this time by 4%.  Possible
>causes are discussed.  I don't think it has anything to do with the excess
>hydrogen.

   I think it more likely has to do with the mix of oxides you are
creating.  First,as I remember it--and it has been a long time--you get WO
when disassociating water, which then grabs any O2 dissolved in the water
to form WO3.  In your experiment, this second step may not be happening, or
more likely is not proceeding fully.  Second, the rods are thoriated
tungsten, and oxidizing the thorium will contribute to your energy balance.
However, I would expect this error to be in the opposite direction.  (Most
thoriated tungsten is 2% thorium, presumably by weight. 

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 31 09:38:07 1998
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At 11:43 PM 8/30/98 +0300, Hamdi Ucar wrote:
>If you have a simple loop of wire carrying a current, when it is
destroyed, >would it make a closed loop of arc ?

    This is all fairly standard electromechanics.  Get any good reference
on the subject, such as the ARRL handbook.

     To answer the question, what happens when a conducting coil becomes
non-conducting all at once?  If it becomes perfectly non-conducting, and
you have a similar conducting coil nearby, then the current will appear in
the other coil.  If you think about how transformers work, you will realize
that if the coupling between the coils is very good, you will lose very
litte energy in the process.  (Of course, I used to build devices which did
just the opposite, the conduction of the coils didn't change, but the coil
saturated, and essentially disappeared from the circut.  If there are no
nearby coils, then the energy will radiate at the speed of light until it
is absorbed by something.  Pairs of devices that do this are called radio
transmitters and receivers.  

     If you want to see what happens if the resistance of the coil suddenly
increases, look at what happens when a superconding magnet quenches.
Usually they are designed so that the energy can be dissipated without
damaging the coil.


                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 31 09:57:05 1998
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Subject: Re: gravity as a source of energy (fwd)
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At 01:41 AM 8/31/98 -0500, Jerry W. Decker wrote:
>Is that absolute?  Speaking for all humankind as did the
>following..<g>..perhaps somewhere in the world there might be wonders
>none of us know about.  Perhaps the one(s) who have 
>such knowledge and fantastic technologies have learned to NOT 
>let the world know of their advances?  
 
   And then again there might be tidal power stations producing power feed
to the electric grid that are regarded as fairly commonplace engineering.
;-)  (The largest existing facility, in France, generates 240 Megawatts,
although much larger facilities have been designed for the Bay of Fundy in
Canada and the Severn River in England.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 31 10:48:34 1998
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Subject: Re: gravity as a source of energy (fwd)
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At 09:31 PM 08/30/98 -0700, Ross wrote:

>
>But you must recognize that mass, means, "amount of aether" associated with
>the resonance.  

I do, Ross. You are preaching to the converted. No kidding...
and I am also eagerly awaiting the purchase of your upcoming book, to learn
more.
 
>Then, you can go study the stars such as T-tauri, and FLIERs
>to name two kinds that demonstrate aether blasting out of the surface of a
star.
>

And thanks to Pete
Skeggs,<http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/References/speculative.html#jeo
ng>, you can easily link also to E J Jeong's interesting speculative
antigravity ideas about these same stellar phenomena. 
"Non-Newtonian Dynamic Gravitational Field from The Longitudinally
Asymmetric Rotating Objects" 
    Eue Jin Jeong, 16 Jun 1997, LANL database gr-qc/9706048
<http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9706048>
    Abstract: ....................... "This new analytic solution provides
the gravitational explanation of the jet phenomena observed from the fast
rotating cosmological bodies, which demands a major revision in our
understanding of the universe since it suggests there exists a strong, long
ranged, non-Newtonian dynamic gravitational force in our universe. This
also raises an interesting question of how the strength of the dipole
moment can be maximized for a given mass by configuring the specific
geometrical shape of the rotating source." 

If you have read that, if you have the time, could you please comment on
any similarities to your theory?

>They should link 3 of the dimensional resonances together so that you have
>pulsating spheres as Kelvin did in the 1870's.  Then, combine them with a
>FitzGerald like vortex sponge for spacetime (spin foam as they sort of call
>it, though that structure isn't really the same).  then, with those two
>together you can make some headway.
<snip>
>But don't fear, we will build those devices.  Just not like they think.  It
>isn't geometry, entirely.  You need to get the atoms to surf their own
>distortions to the local spacetime.  You need to build, an aether turbine.
>If they don't do it, I will.  Time and money are all it will take, and it
>appears the money is getting closer.
>

*All* of this sounds fascinating... You are giving me hope, and I'd love to
eventually build one. I have my own ideas on how to build one based mostly
on information that has been brought to our attention by Robert Stirniman.
I am sure also that your information will be most invaluable. Can you tell
us more about Kelvin and Fitzgerald's view, (that might help)...or direct
us to references, books, or a Site?  Or, failing that...describe your own
proposed aether turbine's construction? <G> 

>As for higher rpm, I would be pretty certain they went up to as high as they
>could without blowing the thing up.  

My recollection of the Japanese paper was that they only sped it up to the
limits of their small motor (and budget).
And also... it was made of brass. Copper, a material having half integral
nuclear spin, is a major component of brass.
See <http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/wallc/>
and <http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/Papers/rs-wallace-tampere.html>

> There are guys building high rpm
>turbines as energy storage devices.  So they take it up to as much rpm as
>the materials can sustain.  No wierdness reported.  Though they aren't
>building the thing for this purpose, and aren't looking for this sort of
result.

Yes. All those guys "are" interested in, is getting the assembly job
finished and out by 5.  :-) 
I wonder what would happen if one of them tried dropping one in a "Leaning
Tower" experiment.
See <http://kalex.engin.umich.edu/mcelwaine/2nd-coming/projectile-motion>


Best Regards,

Colin Quinney.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 31 11:10:49 1998
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From: John Collins <jcollins free-energy.co.uk>
Subject: Re: gravity as a source of energy (fwd)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 19:12:34 +0100
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At 13:01 31/08/98 -0400, you wrote:

>   And then again there might be tidal power stations producing power feed
>to the electric grid that are regarded as fairly commonplace engineering.
>;-)  (The largest existing facility, in France, generates 240 Megawatts,
>although much larger facilities have been designed for the Bay of Fundy in
>Canada and the Severn River in England.
>
Robert, speaking for myself, I live not that far from the River Severn in
England.  It is beautiful countryside and I don't want to see a tidal power
station operating there.  I also don't want to see ten thousand windmills
scattered over the equally beautiful Welsh mountains, generating 1% per cent
of our energy requirements ( at best).  There has to be a better way than
this and I believe the solution lies in tapping gravity as a source of
energy - DIRECTLY not indirectly.  Indirect systems include hydro power.  I
also might add among my rejections, tidal, geothermal, solar, nuclear etc,
etc. (Not to mention fossil-burning). Gravity is the only constant
(relatively speaking).  It is available all over the earth.  It is clean.
It is free.  Its been done before.
John Collins

Author of 'Perpetual Motion; An Ancient Mystery Solved?' - for more
information and details on ordering visit my web site at
http://www.free-energy.co.uk

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 31 11:21:26 1998
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Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:19:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
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Subject: Re: gravity as a source of energy (fwd)
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On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, Robert I. Eachus wrote:

> At 01:41 AM 8/31/98 -0500, Jerry W. Decker wrote:
> >Is that absolute?  Speaking for all humankind as did the
> >following..<g>..perhaps somewhere in the world there might be wonders
> >none of us know about.  Perhaps the one(s) who have 
> >such knowledge and fantastic technologies have learned to NOT 
> >let the world know of their advances?  
>  
>    And then again there might be tidal power stations producing power feed
> to the electric grid that are regarded as fairly commonplace engineering.
> ;-)  (The largest existing facility, in France, generates 240 Megawatts,
> although much larger facilities have been designed for the Bay of Fundy in
> Canada and the Severn River in England.

What's the trade off there , Robert? Aren't these power stations robbing
the earth of it's rotational angular momentum or something ? If they
become prevalent , the days will become noticeably longer , won't they?

Jim Ostrowski



> 
>                                         Robert I. Eachus
> 
> with Standard_Disclaimer;
> use  Standard_Disclaimer;
> function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 31 11:57:53 1998
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Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:54:12 -0700
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
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John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> y
> 
>         Dear Kyle,
> 
>         My suggestion is to NOT use a digital scope.  You will be
> comparing phase or decoded phase on CH A and CH B
> 
Why can't a Tek 465 or digital scope detect phase changes? I don't
understand what the difference is...

Kyle R. Mcallister

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Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 15:41:48 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: gravity as a source of energy (fwd)
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To: Vortex

Jim Ostrowski asks:

     What's the trade off there , Robert? Aren't these power stations robbing
     the earth of it's rotational angular momentum or something ? If they
     become prevalent , the days will become noticeably longer , won't they?

I don't think so. Whether we exploit the tides or not, they will have the same
overall effect on the earth. The power stations reduce the wear and tear of
the moving water on the narrow channels, just as a hydroelectric dam reduces
the damage the moving water has on the rocks and banks downstream. The energy
that would have gone into smashing the rocks and cutting away river banks or
is converted to electricity instead, and eventually released as waste heat in
your kitchen, instead of waste heat in fractured rocks. (I am not suggesting
hydroelectric dams are good for the environment!)

It seems to me tides should have an effect on the moon, making the earth and
moon crash together eventually, but that does not add up. I confess the
physics are over my head. The moon is not affected, but the earth is, so it
should be getting closer to the earth-moon center of gravity. Also, the moons
orbiting Jupiter are supposedly being churned internally by tidal stresses,
causing volcanoes and possibly hot water under the frozen seas of Europa. The
energy has to be coming from somewhere, so I suppose their orbits must be
decaying. I guess they must cause considerable tides on Jupiter as well.
Britannica says that Io's orbit is affected by the other moons: "The resulting
tides developed by the contest between the other satellites and Jupiter
release enough energy to account for the observed volcanism." Release it from
where, and what will be the final effect of this energy release?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 31 13:29:16 1998
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At 11:19 AM 8/31/98 -0700, Jim Ostrowski wrote:
>What's the trade off there , Robert? Aren't these power stations robbing
>the earth of it's rotational angular momentum or something ? If they
>become prevalent , the days will become noticeably longer , won't they?

    Put one from Antarctica to South America, and you will speed it up.
Produce a few million gigawatts from the differences between the level of
the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans across Central America, and you will slow
it down.  You could get a smaller, but still noticable effect, by damming
the Straits of Gibraltar.

    But unless you are doing global reshaping on that level, no one will
need to buy new watches.  (Incidently, many years ago Pan Am started round
the world flights--in one direction only.  It was possible to detect the
effects of these on the correspondence between the Earth's rotation and
atomic clocks.  The net effect was that a system was created whereby every
six months a "leap second" can be added to or subtracted from UTC, although
there have only been, I think two cases where they used the June 30th
option.  But changes in weather patterns are more likely to cause a need
for a leap second than anything man does these days.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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At 03:41 PM 8/31/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>I don't think so. Whether we exploit the tides or not, they will have the
same
>overall effect on the earth. The power stations reduce the wear and tear of
>the moving water on the narrow channels, just as a hydroelectric dam reduces
>the damage the moving water has on the rocks and banks downstream. The energy
>that would have gone into smashing the rocks and cutting away river banks or
>is converted to electricity instead, and eventually released as waste heat in
>your kitchen, instead of waste heat in fractured rocks. (I am not suggesting
>hydroelectric dams are good for the environment!)
 
    About right.  Most tidal plants don't redirect water, they just change
the temporal net flow--away from a sine wave towards a square wave.  The
net change in momentum over a cycle is the same: zero.   This is not true
if you deflect the worm Orebus--the world circling ocean current.

>It seems to me tides should have an effect on the moon, making the earth and
>moon crash together eventually, but that does not add up. I confess the
>physics are over my head.

    Where else did you expect the moon to be. ;-)

>The moon is not affected, but the earth is, so it should be getting closer
to >the earth-moon center of gravity. 

    Go to the blackboard and write 100 times:  The moon orbits the sun, not
the earth.  It is really very hard to understand the relationship between
the Earth and the Moon if you ignore that fact.  The Earth-Moon system is
really a pair of planets whose solar orbits are locked together.  Due to
this peculiar tidal forces affect the orbit of the twin planets around the
sun, but their relative distances don't change.  Well, they do, but because
the solar orbit is eliptical instead of circular, and the effect is
chaotic, one of the reasons that the problem of predicting the location of
the moon baffled astronomers for centuries.  (Also, why Stonehenge is so
impressive--it seems to be a machine for predicting eclipses, which also
requires predicting the moon's position.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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This is a second attempt at posting this
August 31, 1998

> Peter Glueck sent to Vortex, as an attachment, a letter he sent to Bill
> Beaty who expressed an opinion on the Potapov devices in his own post.
>
> As I gather from the letter, Potapov and his vortex devices are doing
> well and now being funded by 'western funding' to distribute (sell) the
> devices. I wonder to what the funding amount this group is putting foward.
> And who are the group members (still secret?)?

> It seems the Potapov's vortex applications are very similar to what
> Griggs have applied his Hydrosonic Pump. Most notably, for Griggs, water
> treatment and heating. The exception with Potapov is his claim to
> generating electricity with his Quantum Thermo Electric Generator. A
> 'self sustaining' device according to past claims.
>
> Now with the soon upcoming public HungExpo '98 in Budapest, we can
> observe a properly running Yusmar and the Quantum Generator. So much
> more accessable then Moldavia. This can greatly help settle the question
> of the validity of the vortex o/u claims. The o/u claims can be proven
> there, along with other reliable running data on the devices.
>
> I will not touch upon the past disappointment in the U.S. with one of
> the devices (incomplete Yusmar) except to say that here is an open
> chance to attend the HungExpo '98 and observe (and test) properly
> running o/u devices. And perhaps to talk with Potapov (through an
> interpreter).
>
> But whatever opinions that may be formed there, Potapov seems to have
> the wherewithal to continue foward in his business expansion. Time to
> check it out?
>
> -AK-

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August 31, 1998

Peter Gluck sent to Vortex, as an attachment, a letter he sent to Bill
Beaty who expressed an opinion on the Potapov devices in his own post.

As I gather from the letter, Potapov and his vortex devices are doing
well and now being funded by 'western funding' to distribute (sell) the
devices. I wonder to what the funding amount this group is putting
foward. And who are the group members (still secret?)? 

It seems the Potapov's vortex applications are very similar to what
Griggs have applied his Hydrosonic Pump. Most notably, for Griggs, water
treatment and heating. The exception with Potapov is his claim to
generating electricity with his Quantum Thermo Electric Generator. A
'self sustaining' device according to past claims.

Now with the soon upcoming public HungExpo '98 in Budapest, we can
observe a properly running Yusmar and the Quantum Generator. So much
more accessable then Moldavia. This can greatly help settle the question
of the validity of the vortex o/u claims. The o/u claims can be proven
there, along with other reliable running data on the devices.

I will not touch upon the past disappointment in the U.S. with one of
the devices (incomplete Yusmar) except to say that here is an open
chance to attend the HungExpo '98 and observe (and test) properly
running o/u devices. And perhaps to talk with Potapov (through an
interpreter). 

But whatever opinions that may be formed there, Potapov seems to have
the wherewithal to continue foward in his business expansion. Time to
check it out?

-AK-

--------------C113BD262B36AE762A923546--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 31 15:11:03 1998
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
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	I am an analog guy.... and do not love ... or trust 
digitzation... or love alias... talk to a ham radio or analog person... 
PLEASE...

	BUT:

	If you feel the need to be digital, go ahead....

	AND:

	You will be looking at a CW or continuous effect, not a signle 
shot effect.... easy to photograph.. with 35 mmm camera.

		Just a suggestion...

			JHS

On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

> John Schnurer wrote:
> > 
> > y
> > 
> >         Dear Kyle,
> > 
> >         My suggestion is to NOT use a digital scope.  You will be
> > comparing phase or decoded phase on CH A and CH B
> > 
> Why can't a Tek 465 or digital scope detect phase changes? I don't
> understand what the difference is...
> 
> Kyle R. Mcallister
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 31 15:53:52 1998
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Birger.Fogelberg@studsvik.uu.se, David@Bahnhof.se,
        John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: YEP!!!Re: Academic proof of altered half-life
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	We were able to do this using Barkers' dry method about 3 years 
ago...  not a mystery and open to anyone.
On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, David Jonsson wrote:
> I just heard on the radio here in Sweden that a researcher at Uppsala
> University, Birger Fogelberg, has succeded in altering the half-life of
> Thorium 229 M. 
> Birger.Fogelberg studsvik.uu.se He is active at the Department of Neutron
> Research at Studsvik. Phonenumber is +46-155-22 18 42
> This is a big topic in Sweden. $3 billion are funded for a solution to the
> nuclear waste problem in Sweden only.
> David Jonsson  Phone +46-18-24 51 52              Fax +46-18-24 51 56
> Uppsala        Cellular GSM +46-706-339487        E-mail David Bahnhof.se
> Sweden         Web: http://www.bahnhof.se/~david  Postgiro 499 40 54-7
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 31 15:56:48 1998
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Mr Rothwell's usual tiresome inaccuracies...

>      A car absorbs a fair amount of solar energy, generates electricity on
>      board and *stores inertia as it drives* all of which convert happily into
>      an excess of energy for the job being requested.
>
> How interesting! The car "stores inertia" before it moves?

• Read it Jed.  Mr Allan says " as it drives "; Mr Rothwell says," before it
moves "

• Can you see the difference Jed?  Are you feeling OK?

...and then he go for one of his condescending smears again.


=============================================

*               The car has already been built in America.                    *

=============================================

> Very fair! I accept.

Wintessed by all.

Great, put your money in the escrow account and we will go into business
together.  Get your Grandpappy to right or read over the contract.


• Are the Infinite Energy files and video collection in the public domain yet?

• Have you written your Inventor's Self-defence Course yet?  Or are you still
trying to bludgeon them into submission with Mammon's Mighty Dollar.

• Can you sustain your statement that it is unlawful for an inventor to not to
want to sell his or her work?



John Allan


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Subject: Re: gravity as a source of energy (fwd)
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To: Vortex

I mentioned that the moon problem is over my head. Robert I. Eachus aptly
responds:

     Where else did you expect the moon to be. ;-)

Well, depending on the hour of day, it's down to me, it's under my thumb, as
Mick Jagger put it.


     Due to this [solar orbit] peculiar tidal forces affect the orbit of the
     twin planets around the sun, but their relative distances don't change.

Okay, so where does the energy come from? Are we both going to crash into the
sun? What about Io? It is turning itself inside out. With that massive release
of energy, if the orbit is not decaying I begin to think gravity might be a
source of energy after all.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 31 17:58:18 1998
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Quinney wrote:

>At 09:31 PM 08/30/98 -0700, Ross wrote:

>>Then, you can go study the stars such as T-tauri, and FLIERs
>>to name two kinds that demonstrate aether blasting out of the surface of a
>star.
>>
>
>And thanks to Pete
>Skeggs,<http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/References/speculative.html#jeo
>ng>, you can easily link also to E J Jeong's interesting speculative
>antigravity ideas about these same stellar phenomena. 
>"Non-Newtonian Dynamic Gravitational Field from The Longitudinally
>Asymmetric Rotating Objects" 
>    Eue Jin Jeong, 16 Jun 1997, LANL database gr-qc/9706048
><http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9706048>
>    Abstract: ....................... "This new analytic solution provides
>the gravitational explanation of the jet phenomena observed from the fast
>rotating cosmological bodies, which demands a major revision in our
>understanding of the universe since it suggests there exists a strong, long
>ranged, non-Newtonian dynamic gravitational force in our universe. This
>also raises an interesting question of how the strength of the dipole
>moment can be maximized for a given mass by configuring the specific
>geometrical shape of the rotating source." 
>
>If you have read that, if you have the time, could you please comment on
>any similarities to your theory?

Well, there are two kinds of jet phenomena in our universe.  Jets that are 1
to 2 light years that shoot out of new born stars called T-tauri stars.  And
jets that are a couple million light years long that shoot out of quasars
and active galactic nuclei, presumably due to super massive black holes.
The question, and problem, for astro physicists is, how does such a jet
become collimated.  For the radio jets, the additional problem is, "what is
that stuff" because we don't see emission lines of hydrogen or other
elements, rather we just see a barrage of radio energy with an interesting
spectrum.

Now, stellar jets are due to aether emission from fusion reactions when the
stars first ignite.  Actually, T-tauri stars do this (first ignition
following gas cloud collapse and star formation), and old red giant stars do
it when they form into planetary nebulae.  Anyone curious about this should
purchase the current, ie October issue of Sky and Telescope magazine and you
will see many of the beautiful images I will put in my book.

Those jets are due to aether emission due to the necessity to conserve
aether, where our present idea, "mass" is correlated to the aether model
concept, "amount of aether".  Ergo, all exothermic reactions are aether
emissive, and you must account for the change to the gravitational potential
due to the flow, and so you must study fluid mechanics to understand where
the flow is going.  But by just looking at the pictures with the idea in
your head that flow of aether alters the gravitational potential, it is easy
to understand what is going on.  For astro physicists who think mass
disappears, however, there is no explaining what you see.

Now for the BH jets.

If you think a black hole pulls stuff inward due to very strong gravity,
then you think that the event horizon is a scary place from which nothing
ever returns.  Matter and energy flow in, for into a singularity of zero
size and large mass (a really dumb idea don't you think?  If you buy the
idea of a singularity, I have some swamp land in Florida to sell you.
Actually, if you buy the idea of gravity being a pulling force I have some
more swamp land to sell, but then almost everyone on the planet thinks
gravity is a pull.  That will change just as our silly notion the earth was
flat, changed.)

OK, if you think in terms of an aether ocean, then you must account for
flow.  And, you must account for the thrust imposed by that flow, in
addition to the thrust imposed by filtering out noisy wave energy (aka ZPE,
ala Puthoff etc.).  The ZPE explains the gravitation component due to wave
energy, but it does not account for the gravitational component due to
aether flow, ie, the cosmological constant in GR.  That component is what my
theories account for.

Anyway, study of the muon and tauon lead me to conclude that aether can
"condense" into a more dense form.  Thus, if you have a spherically
convergent flow, it all rams into itself at the center of the convergence.
But, if you some how initiate an inflow velocity such that the KE of that
aether at radius R_event_horizon exceeds the sound speed of the fluid,
aether, then further into the collapse when the aether on this side rams
into the inflowing aether from the other side, the aether is going to be
crushed.  Put simply, if the KE of the inflowing aether is equal to or
greater than mc^2 at some radius R, then that radius IS, the event horizon.
The event horizon is the radius at which the KE of the inflowing aether is
large enough to convert the aether into the crushed, or condensate, form.

Such a core of condensed aether is going to be at radical energy densities.
And so if you don't keep on ramming it, it is going to blast back out of
there.  The big bang being an example of an entire core breaching
confinement and boiling all at once.  And GRB's probably being examples of
supernovae that formed a black hole, but didn't have enough inward momentum
to keep the core confined so it just exploded right back out again
depositing all of that aether back out into the universe around that region.

But, the jets you are speaking of reside inside of large galaxies.  So all
of the stars around them are emitting aether.  The aether flows out into
deep space away from the exterior of the galaxy.  And it flows into the
super massive black hole at the center of the galaxy.  Thus, at some radius
you are going to have the aether neither flowing inward, nor outward.  ie,
at some radius the aether flow is stagnant.  In that region, the gases
emitted by the stars in the galaxy will not be blown clear, and so you
should see an accumulation of a dusty region some distance out into the
galaxy where the flow of aether into the BH and the flow outward toward deep
space balance.

Take a look at the Hubble archives and recent images to see some beautiful
images of these dusty regions forming stars.

As for the jets, if you just simply think of your bathtub as it forms a
vortex due to the rotation in the water being focused, and then imagine a
spherical shell of the event horizon that is like the drain in your tub, but
spherical, then it should be clear that you will form aether tornadoes at
the poles.

Tornadoes are low pressure phenomena.  So, the KE ramming the core inside
along the axis of rotation is going to be less than the KE of the aether
ramming the core from the equatorial regions.  And, if the angular momentum
of the galaxy increases, then the intensity of the tornadoes are also going
to increase.  Thus, they will penetrate deeper into the inside of the event
horizon, and will approach the core.

The core, due to the reduced KE of aether ramming it along the axis will
stretch outward toward the tornado tips so to speak (there isn't any real
"hole" in the tornado like in your tub, it is more like a real tornado where
the pressure is just lower in the middle of the vortex).  If the tornado
reaches in too far, ie, gains too much angular momentum, then the core will
meet the tornado at a radius where the inflow KE is less than sufficient to
keep the core confined inside of the event horizon.

When that happens, the tremendous pressure of the core can breach
confinement and blast out into space.

Here is what happens:

http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/atlas/icon.html

The aether shoots back out again and boils, producing super luminal jets.
Those jets really are "worm holes" in every sense of the term.  If you could
fly into them without being ripped apart, you could fly outward at faster
than the speed of light.  Though you would be fried if you tried it.

For smaller jets, AGNs do the same thing in nearby galaxies.  Centaurus A is
the most beautiful image composite easily found in some texts on AGN (active
galactic nuclei).  If you get hold of the "deep" image of that galaxy you
can see the extension of stars blown out of the galaxy by those jets.

That damps out the angular momentum and re-establishes the elliptical
(nearly spherical) nature of the stellar orbits. 

SO galaxies tend to be more likely to have jets.  The reason is because the
angular momentum of the spiral disk has been transferred into the inner
motions of the aether flowing into the BH, and so the vortices are more
intense and reach deeper into the interior of the core.

Notice something very interesting about the above model.  The core isn't
pulling anything inward at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rather, the stars that are blowing aether outward are ramming aether down
the throat of the BH.  Ergo, it should not surprise you that I tell you that
the apparent mass of the super massive black holes in the centers of
galaxies, are proportional to the entire mass of the galaxy that hosts them!
Of course this is so, because it is the aether being emitted from the stars
that is driving the aether inward in the first place ;-)

They can't figure out why there should be any correlation.  ERgo, it is just
one more out of thousands of coincidences.



 Can you tell
>us more about Kelvin and Fitzgerald's view, (that might help)...or direct
>us to references, books, or a Site?  Or, failing that...describe your own
>proposed aether turbine's construction? <G> 

Read Whittaker, A History of the Theories of Aether and Electricity
      Volume I around pages 284 on

Or, just do what I did.  Lay around and imagine how a pulsating sphere will
emit waves and alter the motions of another pulsating sphere in an
atmosphere without putting any gravitational interaction into it.

Alternately, just imagine a fishing bobber that bobs up and down on water
due to a little motor and eccentric weight inside.  Then, imagine what you
would have to do to the phase and or frequency of the waves to get a second
similar bobber to accelerate in one direction or another.  

Clue, phase like resonances repulse, phase opposite (180) attract, phase
orthogonal (90,270) are neutral.  Also, frequency mismatches generate no net
thrust due to phase since the phase angle is continuously rotating as
perceived by one, but, to the extent that frequency mismatched wave energy
is filtered out, you get "gravitation".

Ergo, ZPE is just frequency mis matched energy, or, noise.  And spacetime is
just the frequency matched wave energy of our local universe.  It is powered
by fusion reactions, which drive the expansion of the universe with the
origin of expansion having "sources" ie stars, or to get to the point,
fusion, mass to energy conversion since you don't convert mass into energy,
and instead, what you really do is to emit the aether (mass is "amount of
aether") and the resonances recoil.  
So you reduce the entire system right back to Newtonian action reaction and
you get away from voodoo magic of QM.


Ross Tessien

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 31 18:24:34 1998
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>     Due to this [solar orbit] peculiar tidal forces affect the orbit of the
>     twin planets around the sun, but their relative distances don't change.
>
>Okay, so where does the energy come from? Are we both going to crash into the
>sun? What about Io? It is turning itself inside out. With that massive release
>of energy, if the orbit is not decaying I begin to think gravity might be a
>source of energy after all.

The moon's orbit is frequency locked to aether waves eminating from the sun.
See recent findings of 28? day periodicity to the solar neutrino count (I
forget the precise number for solar orientation, ie 27, 28 ?  And, the solar
neutrino period isn't very precise yet.  But it is right at the right period
to match the lunar orbital period.

Several other planetary phenomena match the solar acoustic oscillations.
Aether waves are doing it!

Ross Tessien


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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes (fwd)
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Kyle M. wrote:

What is the sampling rate of the Tek 465? I will be transmitting signals
that will take 300nano-seconds to go from transmitter to reciever
(they'll be bounced off a metal reflector). Can the Tek 465 determine
with good accuracy signal send/recieve at that rate? (in other words,
can it measure accurately down to 300nSec?)

Most wide band o'scopes and amplifiers obey a relation
   risetime(ns) x bandwidth(MHz) = 350
A 50 MHz scope will have a 10%-90% risetime of about 7 ns, etc.

Sampling rate is another matter. The two Phillips and two tektronix
scopes all have two channels, but only one beam. Therefore, the single
beam has to be shared between two channels. There are two ways to do
this. First is "chop" in which the two channels' signals are switched
rapidly first one, then the other, to the vertical deflection plates.
This technique only works at higher frequencies, because the plate
driver amplifier must step in voltage each time the signal is
switched; this process is tens of times slower than the basic risetime
of the amplifier. The second mode is "alternate" in which one channel
drives the deflection plates for a full horizontal sweep, then the
other channel drives the plates during the next sweep, etc.,
alternating between channels. This method displays each signal at full
bandwidth. However, the two signals cannot be displayed simultaneously. 

>From the above, you can appreciate that a dual channel scope will work
for you only if your experimental pulse repeats and is rigorously
synched to a timing pulse that is sent to the scope timebase trigger.

There is such a thing as a dual BEAM oscilloscope, which has two
beams, each of which can be driven by a separate vertical channel.
However, such scopes are rare and expensive.






==
Michael J. Schaffer


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  1 04:53:26 1998
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Subject: Re: Over-Unity Resistors?
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To: Vortex

Joule's Law established the electrical value
of heat: P = I^2*R, or E^2/R, or I*E, is it possible that different resistor
materials, say Carbon as opposed to Silver when tested in a water bath or
such at high power levels,may give a higher temperature rise (o-u) in the
water?

The point is that electron-phonon scattering
in the higher resistivity or higher current driven materials may be
extracting ZPE.

Any Bets?    :-)

Regards,       Frederick

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Bollox.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  1 05:29:17 1998
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Subject: Re: I just talked to Searl
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At 11:39 AM 8/31/98 -0400, you wrote:



>
>     So far 600,000,000 pounds has been spent world wide.
>
>On his device?!? That's dreadful! I hope it is not true. Apparently they have
>nothing to show for the money, because they are not selling anything. It
>sounds like the hot fusion program.

Prof. Searl would break every rule in your book. Yet he is the only person
qualified to build his device (they are giving the money to other people).
In this case, it's a personality thing independent of technical ability.

Dennis

"If we knew what we were doing, we wouldn't call it research." Albert Einstein
Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

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Subject: Re: gravity as a source of energy (fwd)
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At 08:30 PM 8/31/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Okay, so where does the energy come from? Are we both going to crash into the
>sun? What about Io? It is turning itself inside out. With that massive
release
>of energy, if the orbit is not decaying I begin to think gravity might be a
>source of energy after all.
 
    It is much more complicated than that.  There are many forces affecting
the orbit of the earth and moon around the sun.  These include
perturbations by other planets (mainly Jupiter), tidal drag by the sun, the
drag (and pressure) of the solar wind, radiation pressure, electrostatic
forces, electromagnetic forces, and relativistic effects.

    But the net effects on the orbit are small.  The earth will eventually
be swallowed by the sun, but not because of orbital decay.  The sun will
become a red giant star and expand to include the orbits of all the inner
planets, with the possible exception of Mars.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
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function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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Subject: Re: YEP!!!Re: Academic proof of altered half-life
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, Birger.Fogelberg@studsvik.uu.se, David@bahnhof.se,
        John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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At 06:33 PM 8/31/98 -0400, John Schnurer wrote:
>	We were able to do this using Barkers' dry method about 3 years 
>ago...  not a mystery and open to anyone.
 
   Yep, and I keep waiting for someone to come up with a practical method
for using it to generate power.  Due to the thorium decay chain, most of
the energy is released over about a five to ten year period, so this would
definitely be a base load energy source.  (The two Uranium long decay
chains have elements in them with half-lives in the thousands of years, and
thorium is much more abundant than uranium, so thorium is the natural
choice for this.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  1 07:19:58 1998
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Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 07:18:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: ron kita <tekcorman yahoo.com>
Subject: Professor(?) Searle
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Will some one please inform  me on how Searle became
a professor. Please name the institution.
Best,
Ron Kita
...as of a few years ago, I knew of no such title.




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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  1 07:44:36 1998
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In a message dated 9/1/98 5:11:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ad502 iesun9
writes:

<< Bollox. >>

Probably, but what kind and how big?

Bob Briggs

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  1 07:55:43 1998
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Subject: Re: Over-Unity Resistors?
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Much confusion here:-

First ou resistors is oxy-moronic.
Not Joule's Law but Ohm's Law.

Assume pd across resistor is measured relative as+ve, we are in first 
quadrant. To generate power we must be in second.

So the phenomena described are deviations from Ohm's law which is 
interesting anyway but not ou.Am I to believe that at correct bias point, 
reistor will flip to second quandrant and start generating power?
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  1 08:47:45 1998
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Subject: Meyer studied Keely?
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I have just read the account of John W. Keely's work given in "Perpetual
Motion, A History of Obsession", by Arthur Ord-Hume and there are
interesting parallels with Meyer's work.

Ord-Hume says Keely used pseudo-technical language with terms like
"hydro-pneumatic-pulsating-vacu-engine", "sympathetic equilibrium",
"etheric disintegration", "quadruple negative harmonics", and "atomic
triplets".

Meyer's terms are more contemporary but have a similar flavor: "voltage
ticking of state space", "optical thermal lens", "thermal gas ignition by
way of atomic particle agitation", and "resonant pulse-frequency voltage".

Keely claimed to derive power from the disintegration of water and boasted
that "his motor, on one quart of water, would run a train from Philadelphia
right across the continent to San Francisco."

Meyer also claimed to derive power from the disintegration of water and
boasted that "we can drive a car across the United States on only a handful
of water for fuel...or we can release enough energy to fly an executive jet
at 550 m.p.h. for one hour on one gallon of water...or we can develop
tactical aircraft carrying full armament which can 'scoop up' sea water for
fuel and continue on to it's objectives without relying on other fueling
sources."

Does anyone know if Meyer was familiar with Keely's efforts?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  1 08:59:16 1998
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Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 08:55:45 -0700 (PDT)
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On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, Michael Schaffer wrote:
{snip]
> 
> >From the above, you can appreciate that a dual channel scope will work
> for you only if your experimental pulse repeats and is rigorously
> synched to a timing pulse that is sent to the scope timebase trigger.
> 

Nice explanation , Michael. 

It appears that Kyle wants to be able to look at "phase change rates"
(quoting him from a private email) that occur at a source (let's say
at channel 1) and compare this information with what is displayed at the 
target (at channel 2).

So this I think could be accomplished by selecting two different trigger
points on the waveform and looking for differnces in the displays of two
separate "takes" of the waveforms.

The important advantage that a digital scope would have over an analog in
this situation is the save and store capability that the digital has that
most analogs don't have. 

The important thing though is that when a sample is taken from channel 1
SIMULTANEOUSLY a sample is taken at channel 2 by independent inputs, and
whether the display method is chopped or alternate the timings of these
samples are displayed correctly on the crt or computer screen.

Is this right?

Jim ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  1 09:21:39 1998
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At 08:55 9/1/98 -0700, Jim Ostrowski wrote:

>The important thing though is that when a sample is taken from channel 1
>SIMULTANEOUSLY a sample is taken at channel 2 by independent inputs, and
>whether the display method is chopped or alternate the timings of these
>samples are displayed correctly on the crt or computer screen.

All the 2-channel analog scopes I've seen have separate input amplifiers.
Thus they ARE "sampling" the inputs simultaneously. It's only the display
that's not simultaneous on a single-beam scope.  To use an analog scope,
Kyle will need to arrange for his experiment to repeat itself at rapid,
fairly regular intervals (ideally ~10/second).  Then he can use either Alt
or Chop and see a nice picture of the timing difference between the two
signals.

If he can only get the experiment to fire once in a while, he'll have to
use Chop (Alternate would then be useless), turn out all the lights and
take advantage of the screen phospor's persistence to read the desired time
interval off the screen's graduations.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:54:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes (fwd)
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On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, Scott Little wrote:

> At 08:55 9/1/98 -0700, Jim Ostrowski wrote:
> 
> >The important thing though is that when a sample is taken from channel 1
> >SIMULTANEOUSLY a sample is taken at channel 2 by independent inputs, and
> >whether the display method is chopped or alternate the timings of these
> >samples are displayed correctly on the crt or computer screen.
> 
> All the 2-channel analog scopes I've seen have separate input amplifiers.
> Thus they ARE "sampling" the inputs simultaneously. It's only the display
> that's not simultaneous on a single-beam scope.

I've seen some scopes ( analog ) that can actually skew simultaneous peaks
to appear time displaced by playing with the trigger level. 

  To use an analog scope,
> Kyle will need to arrange for his experiment to repeat itself at rapid,
> fairly regular intervals (ideally ~10/second).  Then he can use either Alt
> or Chop and see a nice picture of the timing difference between the two
> signals.
> 
> If he can only get the experiment to fire once in a while, he'll have to
> use Chop (Alternate would then be useless), turn out all the lights and
> take advantage of the screen phospor's persistence to read the desired time
> interval off the screen's graduations.
> 

??? Are you kidding , Scott ,or what? One's vision persistence is way
longer that a (good) scope's phosphor persistence, I thought.


Jim O.


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Subject: CNN - Research suggests virus may play role in depression 
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:53:07 -0600
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Then you see this....   :-)

http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9808/31/depression.virus/


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Subject:  Internet can make you lonely, depressed -
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You see this....

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9808/30/cyberstudy/


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  1 10:04:00 1998
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From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes (fwd)
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On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, Scott Little wrote:

> At 08:55 9/1/98 -0700, Jim Ostrowski wrote:
> 
> All the 2-channel analog scopes I've seen have separate input amplifiers.
> Thus they ARE "sampling" the inputs simultaneously. It's only the display
> that's not simultaneous on a single-beam scope.  To use an analog scope,
> Kyle will need to arrange for his experiment to repeat itself at rapid,
> fairly regular intervals (ideally ~10/second).  Then he can use either Alt
> or Chop and see a nice picture of the timing difference between the two
> signals.

Suppose one wanted to use an analog scope , dual trace to monitor the
output of a frequency sweeping generator at channel 1 and a phase shifted
rendition of the same at channel 2 . Even if  the frequency sweep is only
a few kilocycles how would one's eyes keep up with what is going on?

Gotta use a digital for that I think so you could "freeze" the action
somehow.

Jim O.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  1 10:57:48 1998
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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Internet can make you lonely, depres
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To: Vortex

There was a good summary of this study in the Sunday New York Times. The
scientists who did the study were surprised by the outcome. They did not
expect to find increased loneliness and alienation among heavy Internet users.
I am not surprised. I think you will see the same syndrome with heavy library
users, people who watch television too much, or people who read three
newspapers and a novel per day. It is too much of a good thing. It is
substituting impersonal written communication for conversation.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  1 11:15:02 1998
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Message-ID: <35EC384D.28C86315 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 21:09:17 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
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Frederick J Sparber wrote:
> 
> You see this....
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9808/30/cyberstudy/


Researchers appears to not accept internet as a channel to conduct cultural activities, friendships and basic human communications. 

It seems they see people simply sit front of computers and all they doing is to typing keys as do data entry operators (. This logic is the same to think people talk to the phone (to the machine itself), instead of accepting the phone carry the voice to t
he other end to the line.
They do not understand that computers can do other things than running games or accounting as they did in 80's.

They can not model the internet as a new concept, they do not understand that computers becoming ultimate communication devices, not only for business but mostly for personal use.

Maybe, for most of people Internet is nothing than extension of the classical media, newspapers, TV, etc. But the difference in the content between internet and the mass media is scaring the people, lead to not accept the internet as valid source of infor
mation. Internet is a virtual world for many people like the Disney world.

Alternately, the reason the researchers fall in this conclusion could be 
mostly lonely (in classical terms) people or not having local social activities prefer to use Internet. So the statistical results is interpreted in reverse. It is same to say "Opening umbrellas cause the rain" :)

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  1 11:45:04 1998
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: [OFF TOPIC]Humor
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 18:42:58 GMT
Organization: Improving
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The Russian reformers decided one day that Russia needed a new
national symbol. The communist old garde was unhappy with the idea,
and wanted to keep the old one. The reformers kept proposing one new
symbol after the other, the communists rejecting all of them.
Eventually after many years they finally came up with a new symbol
that both were happy with. It could even be exported to the West!
Boris immediately got on the hot line to inform Bill of Mother
Russia's new national symbol...The Bear Market.
Bill though somewhat surprised, was ever quick on his feet, and
promptly informed Boris that based on personal experience he didn't
think this was such a hot idea, and was sure the American people would
be far happier to accept Bull....

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  1 11:57:53 1998
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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In a message dated 9/1/98 7:56:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ad502 iesun9
writes:

<< Am I to believe that at correct bias point, 
 reistor will flip to second quandrant and start generating power?
 Remi. >>

As I understood the news announcement, that was the claim.

Bob

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Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 18:25:47 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Professor(?) Searle
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I'm not sure how he got that title. I use it as sort of a sign of respect
and an indication the I want to learn.



At 07:18 AM 9/1/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Will some one please inform  me on how Searle became
>a professor. Please name the institution.
>Best,
>Ron Kita
>...as of a few years ago, I knew of no such title.
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  1 15:53:15 1998
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Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 18:52:02 -0400
From: Soo <Soojay compuserve.com>
Subject: Internet can make you lonely, depressed -
Sender: Soo <Soojay compuserve.com>
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I don't agree.  Viewing too much CNN can make you lonely and depressed,
however.

I've met lots of people via the Internet.  I have to admit that most of
them are lacking something in their lives but only on a level that a
non-Internet human might consider sad....and who's to say that view is so
valid...what does the non-Internettie have going for him/her that elevates
them above the norm, and would they recognise the difference if  it bit
them on the backside?  We're all just these people, y'know.

There's always another way to look at things.  On the subject of, say, love
at first sight, Chris Tinsley used to say that he regarded the "eyes
meeting across a crowded bar room" as the worst possible way to decide
someone would make a good life companion, but the majority seem determined
to continue doing it.

- Soo

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  1 16:19:42 1998
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Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes (fwd)
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 >
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At 10:03 9/1/98 -0700, Jim Ostrowski wrote:

>Suppose one wanted to use an analog scope , dual trace to monitor the
>output of a frequency sweeping generator at channel 1 and a phase shifted
>rendition of the same at channel 2 . Even if  the frequency sweep is only
>a few kilocycles how would one's eyes keep up with what is going on?
>
>Gotta use a digital for that I think so you could "freeze" the action
>somehow.

I think that's right, Jim.  There definitely are situations that require
some kind of one-shot recording.  In the old analog-only days, guys used
scope cameras for that.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  1 18:50:31 1998
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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
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Subject: Re: Internet can make you lonely, depressed -
In-Reply-To: <199809011852_MC2-5812-3171 compuserve.com> from Soo at "Sep 1, 98 06:52:02 pm"
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Soo wrote:
> There's always another way to look at things.  On the subject of, say, love
> at first sight, Chris Tinsley used to say that he regarded the "eyes
> meeting across a crowded bar room" as the worst possible way to decide
> someone would make a good life companion, but the majority seem determined
> to continue doing it.

Noble thoughts, but at odds with the way evolution has inclined us.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  1 19:25:28 1998
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From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes (fwd)
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On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, Scott Little wrote:

> At 10:03 9/1/98 -0700, Jim Ostrowski wrote:
> 
> >Suppose one wanted to use an analog scope , dual trace to monitor the
> >output of a frequency sweeping generator at channel 1 and a phase shifted
> >rendition of the same at channel 2. Even if the frequency sweep is only
> >a few kilocycles how would one's eyes keep up with what is going on?
> >
> >Gotta use a digital for that I think so you could "freeze" the action
> >somehow.
> 
> I think that's right, Jim.  There definitely are situations that require
> some kind of one-shot recording.  In the old analog-only days, guys used
> scope cameras for that.

Even if you have repeating phase shifts I don't think a scope camera would
be adequate. 

I forget what the quickest shutter speed on a scope camera is, but my
guess is on the order of 1 millisecond or so. Lousy resolution for phase
shifts occurring maybe 3 of orders of magnitude faster.

On the other hand Jameco (1-800-831-4242) has a 32 megasample/sec PC scope
with the following features:  

FFT spectrum analyzer up to 16 mhz.

Transient signal recorder

True RMS readout

One year warranty

$299 including Dos software 

Requirements: 800 ma 12 power supply (forget that - tap off your
computer's 12 v line).

386 microprcessor or higher , vga display card and mouse

Vacant parallel port, 25 pin

Probes not included apparently

Jameco Item # 139678

-------------------------------------------

Honest, I'm not a Jameco salesman :^)

Jim Ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  1 19:57:17 1998
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From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr victor1.mscomm.com>
To: Vortex-L <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Is this the depression of the Y2k caused by the disgruntled Fortran
programmer in 1969 ?

I can just se this guy , hacking away at his keyboard at IBM  in San Jose,
way back then...


"FOOLS! I'll destroy them ALL! Bwooohahahahaha!"

Jim O.
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Sep  1 20:56:10 1998
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Sirs,

thought this might be interesting news.

John Allan

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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Fuel efficiency
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 05:08:07 GMT
Organization: Improving
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http://www.batsupercar.com/press.htm

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 00:24:32 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Over-Unity Resistors?
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No that could be different. But you cannot tell me that common or garden 
resistors have some special operating point understandard conditions. 
Where is this point? Why do they always seem to burnout before reaching 
it :)

On Tue, 1 Sep 1998 BriggsRO aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 9/1/98 7:56:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ad502 iesun9
> writes:
> 
> << Am I to believe that at correct bias point, 
>  reistor will flip to second quandrant and start generating power?
>  Remi. >>
> 
> As I understood the news announcement, that was the claim.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 01:01:05 1998
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Bah! Humbug!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 01:23:45 1998
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Haven't been following this thread that much 'xcuse the dillatantism. 
What about a delay line coupled to a regenerative amp so the signal gets 
sent around in a loop. Capture data then slow loop speed and recycle 
signal to make period. I bet a certain analog ee knows this stuff people 
did before digital scopes.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 01:59:48 1998
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Joule's law,

in electricity, mathematical description of the rate at which resistance in
a circuit converts electric energy into heat energy. The English physicist
James Prescott Joule discovered in 1840 that the amount of heat per second
that develops in a wire carrying a current is proportional to the electrical
resistance of the wire and the square of the current. He determined that the
heat evolved per second is equivalent to the electric power absorbed, or the
power loss.

A quantitative form of Joule's law is that the heat evolved per second, or
the electric power loss, P, equals the current I squared times the
resistance R, or P = I[{sup 2}]R. The power P has units of watts, or joules
per second, when the current is expressed in amperes and the resistance in
ohms.

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into thermal energy or vice versa; e.g., Seebeck effect, Peltier effect,
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phonon,

in solid-state physics, quantum of lattice vibrational energy. In analogy to
a photon (a quantum of light), the phonon can be viewed as a wave packet
with particle-like properties. Its behaviour characteristics determine or
affect various properties of solids. The concept of the phonon is, for
example, particularly useful in the theory of the thermal conductivity of
insulators. It has been found that ionic crystals are better thermal
insulators than metals. In such a crystal, so-called anharmonic forces exist
that cause different phonons to interact with one another. This interaction
in turn enables the phonons to transmit heat energy to the crystal as a
whole, resulting in the establishment of a smooth temperature variation
throughout the solid.

Phonons also provide a basis for understanding the property of
superconductivity in certain metals. In most metallic solids phonons, along
with impurities, scatter individual electrons. Under certain conditions,
however, the interaction between phonons and electrons has quite a different
effect and leads to an interaction between the electrons themselves. This
action couples together electrons with energies near the Fermi level. At
temperatures near absolute zero (-273.15[{degree}] C), its effects are
sufficient to cause these electrons to move as a coherent group through the
medium. Thus, after an electric current has been set up, phonons must
produce a change in the motion of the entire group of coupled electrons
rather than simply scatter individual electrons. Because the relatively
weak, thermally excited phonons are not able to do so, they move through the
lattice without scattering. As a consequence, a current set up in the
material persists indefinitely, and the metal becomes a superconductor of
zero resistance.

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resistivity,

electrical resistance of a conductor of unit cross-sectional area and unit
length. A characteristic property of each material, resistivity is useful in
comparing various materials on the basis of their ability to conduct
electric currents. High resistivity designates poor conductors.

Resistivity, commonly symbolized by the Greek letter rho, [{rho}], is
quantitatively equal to the resistance R of a specimen such as a wire,
multiplied by its cross-sectional area A, and divided by its length l;
[{rho}]= RA/l. The unit of resistance is the ohm. In the
metre-kilogram-second (mks) system, the ratio of area in square metres to
length in metres simplifies to just metres. Thus, in the
metre-kilogram-second system, the unit of resistivity is ohm-metre. If
lengths are measured in centimetres, resistivity may be expressed in units
of ohm-centimetre.

The resistivity of an exceedingly good electrical conductor, such as
hard-drawn copper, at 20[{degree}] C (68[{degree}] F) is 1.77 {times} 10{sup
-}[{sup 8}] ohm-metre, or 1.77 {times} 10{sup -}[{sup 6}] ohm-centimetre. At
the other extreme, electrical insulators have resistivities in the range 10
[{sup 1}] [{sup 2}]to 10 [{sup 2}] [{sup 0}]ohm-metres.

The value of resistivity depends also on the temperature of the material;
tabulations of resistivities usually list values at 20[{degree}] C.
Resistivity of metallic conductors generally increases with a rise in
temperature; but resistivity of semiconductors, such as carbon and silicon,
generally decreases with temperature rise.

Conductivity is the reciprocal of resistivity, and it, too, characterizes
materials on the basis of how well electric current flows in them. The
metre-kilogram-second unit of conductivity is mho per metre, or ampere per
volt-metre. Good electrical conductors have high conductivities and low
resistivities. Good insulators, or dielectrics, have high resistivities and
low conductivities. Semiconductors have intermediate values of both.

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>Sirs,
>
>thought this might be interesting news.
>
>John Allan



Well as they say... in this case, no news is good news.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 02:15:14 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
To: Vortex-L <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 3:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Info on new DOE Secretary]
LOL!
You have to read between the lines, Rick.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

Rick wrote:


>
>
>>Sirs,
>>
>>thought this might be interesting news.
>>
>>John Allan
>
>
>
>Well as they say... in this case, no news is good news.
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 02:25:24 1998
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Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:23:44 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Joule's law
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Yeah, but it so basic, how can anyone get their name attached to that! I 
remember a teacher going over semiconductor physics saying (in a heavy 
Yorkshire accent) - 'Fick's Law, of course the rate of diffusion is 
propotional to the gradient' (er, he forgot to add bollocks! but it was 
implied, er, I think it should have been called his law :)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 02:41:45 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 3:26 AM
Subject: Re: Joule's law

It's all "basic" Remi.  :-)

But the question, Over-Unity Resistors? Still stands. If you take a 1.000
ohm carbon resistor and put it in  100 milliliters of water at 25 C , and a
1.000 ohm
resistance copper wire in 100 milliliters of water at 25 C and run 1.000
volts at
1.000 amperes through each, do you get the same temperature rise in the same
time? If not, there MAY be ZPE Pumping in one of them. This could explain a
lot of things about the CF cell and other o-u effects.

Best,   Frederick

Remi wrote:


>Yeah, but it so basic, how can anyone get their name attached to that! I
>remember a teacher going over semiconductor physics saying (in a heavy
>Yorkshire accent) - 'Fick's Law, of course the rate of diffusion is
>propotional to the gradient' (er, he forgot to add bollocks! but it was
>implied, er, I think it should have been called his law :)
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 02:43:39 1998
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Subject: Re: [Fwd: Info on new DOE Secretary]
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John, you give them a length of rope they're gonna hang you boy! You must 
have forgotten to include something as an attachment or cut and paste.
Impartially, as ever.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 03:10:09 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Joule's law
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No! It depends on how fast the resistor can conduct that heat away! 
Conductivities and surface areas. How you fit ou into this is beyond me.
Euclidate oh brother, Euclidate!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 03:11:19 1998
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Britannica CD    Help

polaron,

electron moving through the constituent atoms of a solid material, causing
the neighbouring positive charges to shift toward it and the neighbouring
negative charges to shift away. This distortion of the regular position of
electrical charges constitutes a region of polarization that travels along
with the moving electron. After the electron passes, the region returns to
normal. An electron accompanied by this kind of electrical displacement of
neighbouring charges constitutes a polaron.

A polaron behaves as a negatively charged particle with a mass greater than
that of an isolated electron because of its interaction with the surrounding
atoms of the solid. The effect is most pronounced in ionic solids, composed
of positively and negatively charged atoms called ions, because the forces
between the electron and ions are strong. The strength of these forces is
reflected in the mass of the polaron. In common table salt, or sodium
chloride, the mass of a polaron is more than twice the mass of a free
electron.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright (c) 1995 Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc. All Rights Reserved

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Related Propaedia Topics:

Polarizing and diffusion properties and the nature of ionic conduction

[Image] Show Index links.

--------------2093C357276--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 03:24:47 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 4:11 AM
Subject: Re: Joule's law, Over-Unity Resistors?

I don't elucidate on Wednesdays. There are certain privileges that go with
asking a question.  :-)

However, consider ZPE extraction as being a result of molecular
agitation/collisions (at any energy level) , then resistivity/lattice
vibrations or phonon-electron scattering MAY facilitate the production of
"o-u" heat.

Regards,   Frederick

Remi wrote:


>No! It depends on how fast the resistor can conduct that heat away!
>Conductivities and surface areas. How you fit ou into this is beyond me.
>Euclidate oh brother, Euclidate!
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 03:49:50 1998
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Subject: Re: Joule's law
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>Remi wrote:

>>No! It depends on how fast the resistor can conduct that heat away!
>>Conductivities and surface areas. How you fit ou into this is beyond me.
>>Euclidate oh brother, Euclidate!

At 04:17 AM 9/2/98 -0600, Frederick wrote:

>I don't elucidate on Wednesdays. There are certain privileges that go with
>asking a question.  :-)
>
>However, consider ZPE extraction as being a result of molecular
>agitation/collisions (at any energy level) , then resistivity/lattice
>vibrations or phonon-electron scattering MAY facilitate the production of
>"o-u" heat.



    Remi is correct on this.   

    Fred appears to be confusing normal processes,
including (perhaps) ZPE(lattice) with the bogus ZPE(vacuum).

    Mitchell Swartz

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Subject: Re: Joule's law
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On Wed, 2 Sep 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> I don't elucidate on Wednesdays. There are certain privileges that go with
> asking a question.  :-)

Nor Mondays, Nor Tuesdays....

> However, consider ZPE extraction as being a result of molecular
> agitation/collisions (at any energy level) , then resistivity/lattice
> vibrations or phonon-electron scattering MAY facilitate the production of
> "o-u" heat.
> 
> Regards,   Frederick

You'll be tickling state space next.

> Remi wrote:
> 
> >No! It depends on how fast the resistor can conduct that heat away!
> >Conductivities and surface areas. How you fit ou into this is beyond me.
> >Euclidate oh brother, Euclidate!
> >
Device temp ramps up until it can fufil heat conduction eqn.
Enough. I'm getting bored.

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-----Original Message-----
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 4:50 AM
Subject: Re: Joule's law

An Olde Proverb: "There is no such thing as a Stupid Question, only Stupid
Answers".     :-)

Hope this helps.       Regards,    Frederick


Mitch wrote:

>
>>Remi wrote:
>
>>>No! It depends on how fast the resistor can conduct that heat away!
>>>Conductivities and surface areas. How you fit ou into this is beyond me.
>>>Euclidate oh brother, Euclidate!
>
>At 04:17 AM 9/2/98 -0600, Frederick wrote:
>
>>I don't elucidate on Wednesdays. There are certain privileges that go with
>>asking a question.  :-)
>>
>>However, consider ZPE extraction as being a result of molecular
>>agitation/collisions (at any energy level) , then resistivity/lattice
>>vibrations or phonon-electron scattering MAY facilitate the production of
>>"o-u" heat.
>
>
>
>    Remi is correct on this.
>
>    Fred appears to be confusing normal processes,
>including (perhaps) ZPE(lattice) with the bogus ZPE(vacuum).
>
>    Mitchell Swartz
>
>

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-----Original Message-----
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 4:55 AM
Subject: Re: Joule's law

Remi wrote:


>On Wed, 2 Sep 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> I don't elucidate on Wednesdays. There are certain privileges that go
with
>> asking a question.  :-)
>
>Nor Mondays, Nor Tuesdays....
>
>> However, consider ZPE extraction as being a result of molecular
>> agitation/collisions (at any energy level) , then resistivity/lattice
>> vibrations or phonon-electron scattering MAY facilitate the production of
>> "o-u" heat.
>>
>> Regards,   Frederick
>
>You'll be tickling state space next.
>
>> Remi wrote:
>>
>> >No! It depends on how fast the resistor can conduct that heat away!
>> >Conductivities and surface areas. How you fit ou into this is beyond me.
>> >Euclidate oh brother, Euclidate!
>> >
>Device temp ramps up until it can fufil heat conduction eqn.
>Enough. I'm getting bored.

More like BORING.

Have a nice day.

FJS
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 04:14:59 1998
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On Wed, 2 Sep 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

> An Olde Proverb: "There is no such thing as a Stupid Question, only Stupid
> Answers".     :-)
> 
> Hope this helps.       Regards,    Frederick
> 

Some big questions have stupid answers.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 04:20:30 1998
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On Wed, 2 Sep 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

> >Enough. I'm getting bored.
> 
> More like BORING.

But not boorish.
> 
> Have a nice day.
> 
> FJS
> >
> >
Yes EB on CD is excellent value. I'd gladly sacrifice social activities 
(not hygenic ones) for it.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 04:39:05 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 5:21 AM
Subject: Re: Joule's law



Remi wrote:


>On Wed, 2 Sep 1998, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>
>> >Enough. I'm getting bored.
>>
>> More like BORING.
>
>But not boorish.
>>
>> Have a nice day.
>>
>> FJS
>> >
>> >
>Yes EB on CD is excellent value. I'd gladly sacrifice social activities
>(not hygenic ones) for it.

An incredible tool, well worth the ($500.00) investment, but you just wait
until my McGraw-Hill, Encyclopedia of Science and Technology CD($800.00)
gets in this week.  :-)

Best,   Frederick
>
>

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I'd get both. Version forlinux I wonder?

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 06:09:29 1998
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Great, thanks for the refs. Can't check them at the mo. Certainly use 
both in paper form as well as Merck index, RS and so on.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 06:33:26 1998
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From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Jim Ostrowski wrote:
 
> 
> On the other hand Jameco (1-800-831-4242) has a 32 megasample/sec PC scope
> with the following features:
>


I dont think that Jameco meets a professional requirements.

Sampling is not good as you lost the the thickness of the trace giving valuable information about the trancients and rise-fall times.(Tek's new "Digital Phosphor" scopes priced above $10000 do this) Also many sampling scopes are actually not sample as one
 think. Its take one or few samples from each cycles, and combine them with other samples taken from other cycles. If you have a non repeating signal you can obtain hothing from a sampling scope. There are many tradeoffs on scope technology, This is why p
eople does not giveup from TEK or from other serious brands.

When TEK say it is 100MHz, you can see a signal of 100MHz with full details(with high order of harmonics) without 10x, others brands cant do this.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 06:52:06 1998
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Hi Kyle,
To learn more about (XYZ's of) scopes goto
 http://www.tek.com/Measurement/App_Notes/XYZs/index.html

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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From: ZPE <zpe pdq.net>
To: "'jdecker keelynet.com'" <jdecker@keelynet.com>
Cc: "'KeelyNet DallasTexas.net'" <KeelyNet@DallasTexas.net>,
        "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>,
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Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 09:07:19 -0500
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Jerry Decker wrote:
>  There seems to be something going on with the hot to cold 
>  transition which can indeed be tapped, either by an 
>  accumulation of ambient heat that is converted or some kind 
>  of strange dropoff that occurs in the vortex implosion....

ZPE wrote:
>>  As you know, I have a lot that I could say on this, but I have 
>>  to refrain from saying anything, otherwise I may not be able to 
>>  shut up. 8^)

Jerry Decker wrote:
>To me, this sounds like there might be a nerve in this hot to cold transition thing and I certainly would like to read your thoughts and >considered comments on this subject and whether is it a key to your claim of being able to tap the vortex for o/u.

I know it's been several days since your comment but I'm just now getting around to saying something.

I'm sorry to say that you were reading more into my reply than what was there.  My comment was only meant to say "no comment" on the grounds that there was nothing I could say without divulging secrets about the real physics at work in the vortex.  This d
oes not mean that you hit a "nerve" or anything.  Sorry for the false alarm.

Best Wishes,
ZPE
http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 07:09:34 1998
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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Internet can make you lonely, depres
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To: Vortex

Hamdi Ucar wrote:

     Researchers appears to not accept internet as a channel to conduct
     cultural activities, friendships and basic human communications . . . It
     seems they see people simply sit front of computers and all they doing
     is to typing keys as do data entry operators . . . They can not model
     the internet as a new concept, they do not understand that computers
     becoming ultimate communication devices . . .

It should be understood that these researchers were studying people, not
computers. They did not try to explain their findings. This is not a
theoretical treatise on the role of computers in society. They found that on
average, people express loneliness and alienation in proportion to Internet
use. The researchers expected to find the opposite result. They were funded,
in part, by computer hardware and software companies. The sponsors must have
been upset by the results! That is one of the reasons I find the results
credible.

Measuring feelings and loneliness is not an exact science, but it can be done,
and I think it would be a mistake to ignore or dismiss these findings. In
particular, I think this should serve as a warning for educators and young
people. I think computers and the Internet have little role to play in grammar
school and high school. This movement to bring all students onto the Internet
is a mistake. There are better ways to spend money in education. Kids learn
more playing in the mud than playing with computers.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 07:19:34 1998
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From: John Collins <jcollins free-energy.co.uk>
Subject: More gravity as a source of energy
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 15:21:21 +0100
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I proposed that a gravity-driven machine was possible which did not require
any intermediate mechanism (such as running water).  I offered an
explanation as to why it was possible (didn't necessarily have to operate
under the strictures of a conservative force).  I suggested that since it
was receiving energy from falling weights it wasn't a perpetual motion
machine so that chimera could be dispensed with.  I mentioned that
convincing evidence abounded that it had been achieved at least once before
(by Johann Bessler aka Orffyreus).  And the reaction?  A discussion on
whether we might fall into the sun; would Io turn inside out, etc!

Does it not seem a little odd that the above comments do not elicit any
excitement whatsoever considering that if correct they would lead to a
complete solution to the energy crisis, pollution, consumption of earth's
resources, anti-gravity machines, space exploration, third-world development
and the world financial crisis?
John Collins

Author of 'Perpetual Motion; An Ancient Mystery Solved?' - for more
information and details on ordering visit my web site at
http://www.free-energy.co.uk

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 07:23:02 1998
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Message-ID: <19980902142203.1299.rocketmail send101.yahoomail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 07:22:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: phonon
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Thanks,

I've been studying Amplification by Brillioun Scattering in fiber
[photonic scattering by phonons], and have had problems grasping
exactly what a phonon is.  Am I correct in assuming that a phonon is a
name for the pattern grouping of electrons in matter [glass fiber in
my case?].. 



---"Frederick J. Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com> wrote:
>
> file:///C:\EB/_3.htm#first_hit
> >
> Britannica CD    Help
> 
> phonon,
> 
> in solid-state physics, quantum of lattice vibrational energy. In
analogy to
> a photon (a quantum of light), the phonon can be viewed as a wave
packet
> with particle-like properties. Its behaviour characteristics
determine or
> affect various properties of solids. The concept of the phonon is, for
> example, particularly useful in the theory of the thermal
conductivity of
> insulators. It has been found that ionic crystals are better thermal
> insulators than metals. In such a crystal, so-called anharmonic
forces exist
> that cause different phonons to interact with one another. This
interaction
> in turn enables the phonons to transmit heat energy to the crystal
as a
> whole, resulting in the establishment of a smooth temperature
variation
> throughout the solid.
> 
> Phonons also provide a basis for understanding the property of
> superconductivity in certain metals. In most metallic solids
phonons, along
> with impurities, scatter individual electrons. Under certain
conditions,
> however, the interaction between phonons and electrons has quite a
different
> effect and leads to an interaction between the electrons themselves.
This
> action couples together electrons with energies near the Fermi
level. At
> temperatures near absolute zero (-273.15[{degree}] C), its effects are
> sufficient to cause these electrons to move as a coherent group
through the
> medium. Thus, after an electric current has been set up, phonons must
> produce a change in the motion of the entire group of coupled
electrons
> rather than simply scatter individual electrons. Because the
relatively
> weak, thermally excited phonons are not able to do so, they move
through the
> lattice without scattering. As a consequence, a current set up in the
> material persists indefinitely, and the metal becomes a
superconductor of
> zero resistance.
> 
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Copyright (c) 1995 Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc. All Rights Reserved
> 
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Related Propaedia Topics:
> 
> Properties of ionic crystals
> 
> Metal surface phenomena: thermionic and field emission of electrons,
> electron tunneling, photoemission, and interband transitions
> 
> [Image] Show Index links.
> 

==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 07:28:14 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com <Blind.Copy.Receiver@compuserve.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: Internet can make you lonely, depres

Jed wrote:

Snip good stuff...
>
>Kids learn
>more playing in the mud than playing with computers.

Great Line,Jed! So do I,"people are no damned good"!   :-)

Regards,   Frederick
>
>- Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 07:37:02 1998
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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: Hamdi Ucar <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 07:29:40 -0700
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On 02-Sep-98, Hamdi Ucar wrote:

>When TEK say it is 100MHz, you can see a signal of 100MHz with full
>details(with high order of harmonics) without 10x, others brands cant do
this.

 I, recently, purchased a TEK 485, 350MHz/1ns/div, scope. I've, always,
coveted
 the thing, since my aerospace days :)

Just braggin' ;)
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\--
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'
 http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 08:02:54 1998
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From: Puthoff aol.com
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Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:58:34 EDT
To: jcollins free-energy.co.uk, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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FYI, Barnes & Noble has just reprinted and is distributing Arthur Ord-Hume's
book "Perpetual Motion: The History of an Obsession."  There are a few pages
on Bessler's wheel that is pretty objective, that smart people observed it and
it appeared to pass reasonable tests (especially the acceleration from slow
speeds), but that the secret, if real, went with Bessler to his grave.  The
widespread distribution of this book (which discusses with pictures all the
overbalancing wheel approaches) is quite a compendium.

Hal Puthoff

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file:///C:\EB/_2.htm#first_hit

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Britannica CD    Help

[... continued from]

Sound

[Table of Contents]

ULTRASONICS

The term ultrasound refers to vibrations of frequencies greater than the
upper limit of the audible range for humans--that is, greater than about 20
kilohertz. The term sonic is applied to ultrasound waves of very high
amplitudes. Hypersound, sometimes called praetersound or microsound, is
sound waves of frequencies greater than 10{sup 13} hertz. At such high
frequencies it is very difficult for a sound wave to propagate efficiently;
indeed, above a frequency of about 1.25 {times} 10{sup 13} hertz, it is
impossible for longitudinal waves to propagate at all, even in a liquid or a
solid, because the molecules of the material in which the waves are
traveling cannot pass the vibration along rapidly enough.

Many animals have the ability to hear sounds in the human ultrasonic
frequency range. Some ranges of hearing for mammals and insects are compared
with those of humans in Table 7. A presumed sensitivity of roaches and
rodents to frequencies in the 40 kilohertz region has led to the manufacture
of "pest controllers" that emit loud sounds in that frequency range to drive
the pests away, but they do not appear to work as advertised.

[continued ...  ]

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Copyright (c) 1995 Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc. All Rights Reserved

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 08:11:10 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: phonon

Anton wrote:


>
>
>Thanks,
>
>I've been studying Amplification by Brillioun Scattering in fiber
>[photonic scattering by phonons], and have had problems grasping
>exactly what a phonon is.  Am I correct in assuming that a phonon is a
>name for the pattern grouping of electrons in matter [glass fiber in
>my case?]..
>
As I interpret it Anton, it is more like the connection points of a
three-dimensional network of interconnected springs where the springs
represent the molecular bonds and the phonons are the quantized wave
disturbances (caused by heat or sound)that propagate through these.

Brillouin showed that light can produce sound
in a material, or sound will modulate
light passing through the material.

C.H. Townes used a laser feedback system to generate hypersound in a glass
block, strong enough to shatter it.

Regards,   Frederick
>
>==
>Anton Rager
>a_rager yahoo.com
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 08:23:46 1998
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Frederick J Sparber wrote:

> An Olde Proverb: "There is no such thing as a Stupid Question, only Stupid
> Answers".     :-)
>
> Hope this helps.       Regards,    Frederick
>


the newe Proverb: "The only stupid questions that exist are the questions you
have, but fail to ask"  (PR)
Hope this helps, too......;^}
--
Regards,
Patrick V. Reavis


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 08:25:38 1998
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
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Frederick
	I have used laser pulses to generate ultrasound waves in metals for
quality testing purposes. We call it by the original name of Laser
Ultrasound.
Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Frederick J Sparber[SMTP:fjsparb sprintmail.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Wednesday, September 02, 1998 7:58 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: phonon
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> Date: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 8:23 AM
> Subject: Re: phonon
> 
> Anton wrote:
> 
> 
> >
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >I've been studying Amplification by Brillioun Scattering in fiber
> >[photonic scattering by phonons], and have had problems grasping
> >exactly what a phonon is.  Am I correct in assuming that a phonon is a
> >name for the pattern grouping of electrons in matter [glass fiber in
> >my case?]..
> >
> As I interpret it Anton, it is more like the connection points of a
> three-dimensional network of interconnected springs where the springs
> represent the molecular bonds and the phonons are the quantized wave
> disturbances (caused by heat or sound)that propagate through these.
> 
> Brillouin showed that light can produce sound
> in a material, or sound will modulate
> light passing through the material.
> 
> C.H. Townes used a laser feedback system to generate hypersound in a glass
> block, strong enough to shatter it.
> 
> Regards,   Frederick
> >
> >==
> >Anton Rager
> >a_rager yahoo.com
> >
> >_________________________________________________________
> >DO YOU YAHOO!?
> >Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 08:28:41 1998
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Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:25:10 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Perpetual Motion
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To: Vortex; >INTERNET:Puthoff aol.com

Hal says, "FYI, Barnes & Noble has just reprinted and is distributing Arthur
Ord-Hume's book 'Perpetual Motion: The History of an Obsession.'" That's odd.
I looked on www.amazon.com yesterday, and they said it is out of print. Where
did you buy your copy, Hal?

Maybe it is in print but Amazon and the bookstores are part of a conspiracy to
suppress it!

The author has written other books about music boxes.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 08:40:30 1998
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From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Chuck Davis wrote:
> 
>  I, recently, purchased a TEK 485, 350MHz/1ns/div, scope. I've, always, coveted the thing, since my aerospace days :)
> 
> Just braggin' ;)

I had 475 once upon a time, 250MHz, I can see it 1nS pulses. Now I have not my own scope, and you dont know how I need a one just now. :(

I guess you spend less than 500 bucks for it. 

Regards, 

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 08:44:33 1998
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: More gravity as a source of energy
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John Collins Wrote:

>I proposed that a gravity-driven machine was possible which did not require
>any intermediate mechanism (such as running water).  I offered an
>explanation as to why it was possible (didn't necessarily have to operate
>under the strictures of a conservative force).  I suggested that since it
>was receiving energy from falling weights it wasn't a perpetual motion
>machine so that chimera could be dispensed with.  I mentioned that
>convincing evidence abounded that it had been achieved at least once before
>(by Johann Bessler aka Orffyreus).  And the reaction?  A discussion on
>whether we might fall into the sun; would Io turn inside out, etc!
>
>Does it not seem a little odd that the above comments do not elicit any
>excitement whatsoever considering that if correct they would lead to a
>complete solution to the energy crisis, 

No, it doesn't seem odd at all.

The reason is, the people on the list who don't understand much about
physics might think that your comments are compelling and jump to far out
extensions of what might be possible.  But those who have studied and worked
with mechanics, know that it is easy to use rotational "leverage" to cause
one wheel to accelerate due to a different falling weight.  What we know, is
that this sort of thing is done, ALL the time, with real machines, and no
signs of wierdness have ever been observed in the sense that a real test was
put together and a physics lab, university, 3M, GE, etc. stood up and said,
hey guys, all that stuff we learn is wrong for some reason with this device.

In order for there to have been anything really going on, then the
gravitational mass on one side of a pulley would have to change as compared
to the gravitational mass on the other side of the pulley (this statement
accounts for the reverse condition of the mass staying the same, and the
gravitational potential changing from one side to the other.  Either way a
machine like this could run, but neither of these have been observed except
in two reported, BUT NOT YET REPEATED, experiments, one in Tampere and one
in Japan.

Both of those experiments used high tech equipment and techniques not
available to the guys with wheels and pulleys.

I had a guy come to my company (I do engineering design and manufacturing
and often work with inventors) who was convinced he had figured out how to
cheat the system with a half cylindrical float that was going to just rotate
around forever.  He simply didn't understand how to balance forces.

He thought it had already worked, and so well that it had bent the shaft
ripping it's way up toward vertical.  So he thought that with a stronger
system, where it didn't rip itself apart, it would run forever.  He didn't
understand that the thing was just flipping upside down to equilibrium, and
that no matter what he did or how much he spent on that design, that is all
it was going to do.

Now as for falling weights and accelerating masses, that, I assure you, is
easy to accomplish.  What is not, is to have the thing running forever.
After the weight falls to the ground, the input of energy ceases, and the
friction in the system will slow it to a stop.

Look, if he showed it to people, no doubt he was trying to get investors
involved so he could make a pot of money off of it.  And if he showed
investors a device that was spinning and reeling forever, subsequent to
raising a weight one time or giving it one big kick, I guarantee you he
would have received money, or else he was a moron, which I doubt.

He must have been very intelligent, but not trained enough to recognize his
mistake or why it wasn't really doing anything important.

If you reduce friction, you can increase the rpm of a rotor, that is easy to
do.  Heck, if you could ride on a flat straight track on the moon, the same
energy you put into riding through the park at a leisurely pace would
accelerate you to a thousand miles per hour!  Does that mean the moon allows
you to generate OU from a bicycle?  No.  It means the energy losses to wind
are zero, and you go that fast if you are going to dissipate the energy you
are pumping into the system via bearing friction.  Ergo, if you want to go
fast on the ground, take note that you are losing a lot of energy to wind
friction.

No it isn't wierd at all that you don't hook serious thinkers just with your
comments about PM machines, but you can get an explanation when you ask why
not.  We get a lot of email!

Have fun, and if you ever get one running, then I guarantee you that funding
is simple to acquire for any energy source of that genre that really does
work.  I would hand it to you myself.  That fact, is why I for one am
completely confident that all of the old versions of wheels and pulleys are
just smoke and mirrors as to the amount of energy in, versus energy out.  

The tricky thing in the machine you mention is that he got one of the wheels
to accelerate up to high rpm, leading you to think that it was providing
energy.  High rpm, and energy out, are two completely different things.  One
does not mean the other.

Later, Ross Tessien


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 08:44:42 1998
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Interesting.  That is the model I use for super conductivity.  The lattice
atoms become phase and frequency coupled so that individual electrons moving
through the lattice, surf the waves of those polarons.  Super conductivity
being where the individual electrons provide the "communication" to atoms
down stream as to the condition of motion of the atoms up stream, meaning,
the relative phase and frequency of oscillation of adjacent and distant
lattice atoms.

Basically, you set up a condition where the entire lattice is acting like
the ribbon waves on a flag, as an analogy.  though that is just one geometry
of wave undulation possible.  There are other more likely smoke ring vortex
like geometries.  But what has always bothered me is that they think that
pairs of electrons are needed to explain super conductivity.  I don't think
this is so.  I think that the individual electrons serve as the messengers
that establish the momentum in the lattice by communicating phase and
frequency of the lattice oscillations.  

JJ's in a series do this already and lead to a precision frequency standard.
So it seems to me that goose and gander are both happy in the JJ and in the
HTSC or other SC materials.  The trick is, to get a lattice that can set up
stable internal oscillations.

Later, Ross Tessien


>file:///C:\EB/_7.htm#first_hit
>Britannica CD    Help
>
>polaron,
>
>electron moving through the constituent atoms of a solid material, causing
>the neighbouring positive charges to shift toward it and the neighbouring
>negative charges to shift away. This distortion of the regular position of
>electrical charges constitutes a region of polarization that travels along
>with the moving electron. After the electron passes, the region returns to
>normal. An electron accompanied by this kind of electrical displacement of
>neighbouring charges constitutes a polaron.
>
>A polaron behaves as a negatively charged particle with a mass greater than
>that of an isolated electron because of its interaction with the surrounding
>atoms of the solid. The effect is most pronounced in ionic solids, composed
>of positively and negatively charged atoms called ions, because the forces
>between the electron and ions are strong. The strength of these forces is
>reflected in the mass of the polaron. In common table salt, or sodium
>chloride, the mass of a polaron is more than twice the mass of a free
>electron.
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Copyright (c) 1995 Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc. All Rights Reserved
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Related Propaedia Topics:
>
>Polarizing and diffusion properties and the nature of ionic conduction
>
>[Image] Show Index links.
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 08:56:00 1998
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From: Jerry Wayne Decker <jwdatwork yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: tongue in cheek
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: zpe pdq.net, "'KeelyNet@DallasTexas.net'" <KeelyNet@DallasTexas.net>
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Hi ZPE!

you're SUCH a tease...<g>...hope your business plan is going well...


---ZPE  wrote:
> 
> Jerry Decker wrote:
> >To me, this sounds like there might be a nerve in this hot to cold
transition thing and I certainly would like to read your thoughts and
>considered comments on this subject and whether is it a key to your
claim of being able to tap the vortex for o/u.
> 
> I know it's been several days since your comment but I'm just now
getting around to saying something.
> 
> I'm sorry to say that you were reading more into my reply than what
was there.  My comment was only meant to say "no comment" on the
grounds that there was nothing I could say without divulging secrets
about the real physics at work in the vortex.  This does not mean that
you hit a "nerve" or anything.  Sorry for the false alarm.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> ZPE
> http://freeweb.pdq.net/zpe



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 09:20:12 1998
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> To: Vortex
> 
> Hamdi Ucar wrote:
> 
>      Researchers appears to not accept internet as a channel to conduct
>      cultural activities, friendships and basic human communications . . . It
>      seems they see people simply sit front of computers and all they doing
>      is to typing keys as do data entry operators . . . They can not model
>      the internet as a new concept, they do not understand that computers
>      becoming ultimate communication devices . . .
> 
> It should be understood that these researchers were studying people, not
> computers. They did not try to explain their findings. This is not a
> theoretical treatise on the role of computers in society. They found that on
> average, people express loneliness and alienation in proportion to Internet
> use. 

I am saying researchers did not taking account the social activities and communication does the sampled people on the Internet. This an intentional error, and I try to explain why researcher doesn't taking account the social activities performed via Inter
net. This is same to say "People using cars travel less". What they should say "walk less".

Critise the Internet does not make sense, Internet is a free communication channel. Internet does not impose any kind of usage on people, contrary of other media, like broadcasting. It is up to people to just to surf or contribute it.There are millions of
 millions of home pages, that ordinary people share their intellectal stuff with others. I wonder resercher even they does not inquired the sampled people have homepages or not.

How do you define the loneless?

But if people choose only surfing, like watching TV, on the internet, and if this can cause some psycologic problems, this can be tried to correct.

> I think computers and the Internet have little role to play in grammar
> school and high school. This movement to bring all students onto the Internet
> is a mistake. There are better ways to spend money in education. Kids learn
> more playing in the mud than playing with computers.

The key is using the Internet equallly productive as consuming. In just in school times people can learn and bnecome motivated to productive usage.

> 
> - Jed

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 10:08:07 1998
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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: More gravity as a source of energy
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To: Vortex; John Collins >INTERNET:jcollins free-energy.co.uk

John Collins writes:

     I proposed that a gravity-driven machine was possible which did not
     require any intermediate mechanism (such as running water).  I offered
     an explanation as to why it was possible . . .  I suggested that since
     it was receiving energy from falling weights it wasn't a perpetual
     motion machine so that chimera could be dispensed with.

This strikes me as a contradiction. If the machine does not stop, and the
gravitational pull of the weights or the earth is not reduced, then it ought
to keep running until the bearings wear out, which makes it a perpetual motion
machine. I do not understand the distinction. This sounds like the people who
say that Meyer never claimed o-u, he only said he could "fly an executive jet
at 550 m.p.h. for one hour on one gallon of water." If that isn't o-u, I do
not know what is!


     I mentioned that convincing evidence abounded that it had been achieved
     at least once before (by Johann Bessler aka Orffyreus).  And the
     reaction?  A discussion on whether we might fall into the sun; would Io
     turn inside out, etc!

     Does it not seem a little odd that the above comments do not elicit any
     excitement whatsoever considering that if correct they would lead to a
     complete solution to the energy crisis, pollution . . .

Be reasonable, John. You know why your comments elicit no excitement. It is
because we think you are incorrect. We do not believe your claims. Please do
not take it personally. You realize, I am sure, that your claims contradict
many fundamental laws of physics. We are open minded on this forum, and I for
one would be happy to modify or toss out these laws, but you must first show
me *proof*, in the form of a working experiment. Your theories alone do not
convince me. The descriptions of the Bessler experiments in your book do not
convince me. The accounts are too old; they come from an era when science was
not well established; the techniques are unsound; there is no hard data; and
of course there is no physical evidence, photographs, or detailed drawings of
the inside of the machine. Frankly, if the experiments had been performed last
week I would not believe the results, given the poor quality of the data.
People's eye witness accounts and impressions cannot be trusted. We must have
replicated, widely observed, instrumented data. (They had good instruments
back then.)

It is very simple. If you wish to convince anyone, you must demonstrate the
phenomenon. Build a machine, run it, videotape it, ship it to Mallove or
Little. Then we will believe you, and we help you any way we can. You should
count us as friends because we will look at a demonstration.
Most people will not. Most people would dismiss you as a criminal or a
lunatic. Even if your machine appears to work people will say it must be a
fraud with some hidden source of energy. You could get in serious trouble with
the general public. I guarantee you will NEVER get an audience with a major
corporation , mainstream research organization, or government agency. You will
get an audience with us, though. We will take you seriously and we are in a
position to help. Get on with it! Build the thing, demonstrate it, ship it or
bring it, and all will be well.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 10:17:30 1998
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
Subject: Re: Oscilloscopes (fwd)
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	Dear vo.,

	Kyles experiment is repetative .... no problem in rep rate... 100 
to 10 megs cps [or rps] is easy to do.  Chop is fine for display.


			JHS

	Kyle:

		Find your ham!

On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, Scott Little wrote:

> At 08:55 9/1/98 -0700, Jim Ostrowski wrote:
> 
> >The important thing though is that when a sample is taken from channel 1
> >SIMULTANEOUSLY a sample is taken at channel 2 by independent inputs, and
> >whether the display method is chopped or alternate the timings of these
> >samples are displayed correctly on the crt or computer screen.
> 
> All the 2-channel analog scopes I've seen have separate input amplifiers.
> Thus they ARE "sampling" the inputs simultaneously. It's only the display
> that's not simultaneous on a single-beam scope.  To use an analog scope,
> Kyle will need to arrange for his experiment to repeat itself at rapid,
> fairly regular intervals (ideally ~10/second).  Then he can use either Alt
> or Chop and see a nice picture of the timing difference between the two
> signals.
> 
> If he can only get the experiment to fire once in a while, he'll have to
> use Chop (Alternate would then be useless), turn out all the lights and
> take advantage of the screen phospor's persistence to read the desired time
> interval off the screen's graduations.
> 
> 
> 
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 10:20:30 1998
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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	Dear Robt, Vo.,

	One of Barker's patents describs just this.... making energy.  My 
interest is in 'dumbing down' the danger of radio nuclides.

				
	Will reproduce for money! :)

On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, Robert I. Eachus wrote:

> At 06:33 PM 8/31/98 -0400, John Schnurer wrote:
> >	We were able to do this using Barkers' dry method about 3 years 
> >ago...  not a mystery and open to anyone.
>  
>    Yep, and I keep waiting for someone to come up with a practical method
> for using it to generate power.  Due to the thorium decay chain, most of
> the energy is released over about a five to ten year period, so this would
> definitely be a base load energy source.  (The two Uranium long decay
> chains have elements in them with half-lives in the thousands of years, and
> thorium is much more abundant than uranium, so thorium is the natural
> choice for this.)
> 
>                                         Robert I. Eachus
> 
> with Standard_Disclaimer;
> use  Standard_Disclaimer;
> function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 10:24:06 1998
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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: Hamdi Ucar <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 09:52:09 -0700
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On 02-Sep-98, Hamdi Ucar wrote:
>Chuck Davis wrote:
>> 
>>  I, recently, purchased a TEK 485, 350MHz/1ns/div, scope. I've, always,
>>coveted the thing, since my aerospace days :)
>> 
>> Just braggin' ;)

>I had 475 once upon a time, 250MHz, I can see it 1nS pulses. Now I have
>not my own scope, and you dont know how I need a one just now. :(

>I guess you spend less than 500 bucks for it. 

 Nope :( $800, bargained down from $895 w/ probes, from Danbar, Scottsdale,
 Ariz. Motorola neighborhood. Very clean.
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\--
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'
 http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 10:26:39 1998
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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
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On 02-Sep-98, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

>Maybe you can answer this; the others are just arguing about it:

>Can I use a scope like a Tek 485 to view a signal that I send away and
>back, and determine how long it took a phase change to propagate from
>transmitter to the reciever (the reciever being the O-Scope)? I will be
>passing a radio beam through an unusual setup (waveguides and such) and
>need to determine phase propagation.

>Thanks,
>Kyle R. Mcallister

 I certainly hope so, Kyle. I plan to do the same thing in investigating
 the wierdness of the Caduceus Coil :) That thing has always intrigued me.
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\--
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'
 http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 10:39:17 1998
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Chuck Davis wrote:
> 
>  I certainly hope so, Kyle. I plan to do the same thing in investigating
>  the wierdness of the Caduceus Coil :) That thing has always intrigued me.

Yes, I would last night a kind Caduceus Coil, maybe not the exact specs. I immediatly observed unique resonamce modes, and today obtained small ozone smell, sign of ionization of air, but with few hundred miliwats, no high voltage induced on the coil, no 
strong electric field around, could not investigate further becasue no scope is present. If you have a RF signal generator, you can observe these things comfortably I think, I can post the spec of my coil and the setup.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 11:01:23 1998
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From: mjones jump.net (Mitchell Jones)
Subject: Re: Internet can make you lonely, depres
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>To: Vortex
>
>Hamdi Ucar wrote:
>
>     Researchers appears to not accept internet as a channel to conduct
>     cultural activities, friendships and basic human communications . . . It
>     seems they see people simply sit front of computers and all they doing
>     is to typing keys as do data entry operators . . . They can not model
>     the internet as a new concept, they do not understand that computers
>     becoming ultimate communication devices . . .
>
>It should be understood that these researchers were studying people, not
>computers. They did not try to explain their findings. This is not a
>theoretical treatise on the role of computers in society. They found that on
>average, people express loneliness and alienation in proportion to Internet
>use. The researchers expected to find the opposite result. They were funded,
>in part, by computer hardware and software companies. The sponsors must have
>been upset by the results! That is one of the reasons I find the results
>credible.
>
>Measuring feelings and loneliness is not an exact science, but it can be done,
>and I think it would be a mistake to ignore or dismiss these findings. In
>particular, I think this should serve as a warning for educators and young
>people. I think computers and the Internet have little role to play in grammar
>school and high school. This movement to bring all students onto the Internet
>is a mistake. There are better ways to spend money in education. Kids learn
>more playing in the mud than playing with computers.
>
>- Jed

***{The study obviously reversed cause and effect. The truth is that people
who are lonely and socially isolated are more likely to use the internet.
Hence the correlation shown by the study. There is, properly, no
implication that internet use *caused* the social isolation. Quite the
opposite: the social isolation caused the high level of internet use, both
by ensuring that these people had lots of free time on their hands, and by
giving them an incentive to reach out to others, which the internet permits
and encourages them to do. The people who did the study were obviously
idiots to have reached the conclusion they reached, regardless of the
source of their funding. If they had really wanted to determine whether the
internet contributed to loneliness, they would have made some effort to
enquire about whether these people felt more lonely before they began using
the internet, or after. As for whether children learn more playing in the
mud than playing with computers, that is simply silly, when stated as a
generalization. (Children for whom it might be true--i.e., infants--would
not be at a developmental level where use of computers would be an option,
and those who were capable of using computers would most assuredly learn
more from them than from playing in the mud.) --Mitchell Jones}***


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 11:14:42 1998
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From: John Collins <jcollins free-energy.co.uk>
Subject: Re: More gravity as a source of energy
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 19:16:17 +0100
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At 08:41 02/09/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>John Collins Wrote:
>
>>I proposed that a gravity-driven machine was possible which did not require
>>any intermediate mechanism (such as running water).  I offered an
>>explanation as to why it was possible (didn't necessarily have to operate
>>under the strictures of a conservative force).  I suggested that since it
>>was receiving energy from falling weights it wasn't a perpetual motion
>>machine so that chimera could be dispensed with.  I mentioned that
>>convincing evidence abounded that it had been achieved at least once before
>>(by Johann Bessler aka Orffyreus).  And the reaction?  A discussion on
>>whether we might fall into the sun; would Io turn inside out, etc!
>>
>>Does it not seem a little odd that the above comments do not elicit any
>>excitement whatsoever considering that if correct they would lead to a
>>complete solution to the energy crisis, 
>
>No, it doesn't seem odd at all.
>
>The reason is, the people on the list who don't understand much about
>physics might think that your comments are compelling and jump to far out
>extensions of what might be possible.  But those who have studied and worked
>with mechanics, know that it is easy to use rotational "leverage" to cause
>one wheel to accelerate due to a different falling weight.  What we know, is
>that this sort of thing is done, ALL the time, with real machines, and no
>signs of wierdness have ever been observed in the sense that a real test was
>put together and a physics lab, university, 3M, GE, etc. stood up and said,
>hey guys, all that stuff we learn is wrong for some reason with this device.

JC- Yes Ross, I agree.  I never suggested thast there was anything weird
going on, or that what we learned was wrong.  It seems to me that what is
wrong is the conclusions we have reached regarding this aspect of gravity.
>
>Ross - In order for there to have been anything really going on, then the
>gravitational mass on one side of a pulley would have to change as compared
>to the gravitational mass on the other side of the pulley.  

JC - Why a pulley?  Why not a balance beam with one mass nearer to the CoG.
The beam would over-balance and the "heavier" end drop to the lowest point.
In order to get it to rise, some means has to be found to bring it back
towards the CoG at the same time that the opposite mass moves away.  If you
make the difference in action between the two masses very small, then there
will be a tendency for the beam to "overshoot" under its momentum and if you
then cause your masses to exchange positions (relatively) you will begin a
rotational movement.


Ross - Now as for falling weights and accelerating masses, that, I assure
you, is easy to accomplish.  What is not, is to have the thing running forever.
>After the weight falls to the ground, the input of energy ceases, and the
>friction in the system will slow it to a stop.

JC - I could show you a means of moving those masses on the balance beam,
under the influence of gravity, right now.  No additional forces required.
>
Ross - Look, if he showed it to people, no doubt he was trying to get investors
>involved so he could make a pot of money off of it.  And if he showed
>investors a device that was spinning and reeling forever, subsequent to
>raising a weight one time or giving it one big kick, I guarantee you he
>would have received money, or else he was a moron, which I doubt.

JC - He was paranoid about losing the secret Ross, (like all inventors)  he
wouldn't part with the secret until he had the money in his sight.
>
Ross - He must have been very intelligent, but not trained enough to
recognize his mistake or why it wasn't really doing anything important.

He made no mistake.  The evidence was clear and although I don't expect you
to take my word for it, 20 years of research into this guy convinces me he
was for real.
>
Ross - If you reduce friction, you can increase the rpm of a rotor, that is
easy to do.  Heck, if you could ride on a flat straight track on the moon,
the same
>energy you put into riding through the park at a leisurely pace would
>accelerate you to a thousand miles per hour!  Does that mean the moon allows
>you to generate OU from a bicycle?  No.  It means the energy losses to wind
>are zero, and you go that fast if you are going to dissipate the energy you
>are pumping into the system via bearing friction.  Ergo, if you want to go
>fast on the ground, take note that you are losing a lot of energy to wind
>friction.

JC - Friction didn't matter a dam!  He made his machine do work, so friction
was just a minor factor.

>Have fun, and if you ever get one running, then I guarantee you that funding
>is simple to acquire for any energy source of that genre that really does
>work.  I would hand it to you myself.  That fact, is why I for one am
>completely confident that all of the old versions of wheels and pulleys are
>just smoke and mirrors as to the amount of energy in, versus energy out.  

JC - Watch this space (said the eternal optimist)>
John Collins

Author of 'Perpetual Motion; An Ancient Mystery Solved?' - for more
information and details on ordering visit my web site at
http://www.free-energy.co.uk

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Hamdi Ucar writes:

     I am saying researchers did not taking account the social activities and
     communication does the sampled people on the Internet.

I have not read the full report, but I believe they did. That was the focus of
the research.


     This an intentional error . . .

That is a serious charge! You are saying they committed academic fraud, and
knowingly used a skewed sample of respondents or a poorly selected set of
questions. Public opinion research, social science  and sociology are
difficult, and researchers often do make large errors, but these errors are
not "intentional."


     Critise the Internet does not make sense, Internet is a free
     communication channel. Internet does not impose any kind of usage on
     people, contrary of other media, like broadcasting. . .

Nobody is criticizing the Internet. They are trying to objectively measure the
effect it has on people's social life and mental health.


     I wonder researcher even they does not inquired the sampled people have
     homepages or not.

You will have to read the paper and find out if this data was collected.


     How do you define the loneliness?

You will have to read the paper for that too. In other studies, the respondent
answers a series of questions about how many friends he has, how many hours
per week he spends with friends or family, how he feels about work, family
life, and so on. You have to account for unemployment, divorce, disease ect.
It is tough problem. It is beyond the scope of this forum.

Social science discovers statistical generalizations, not immutable laws. Some
people will experience less loneliness thanks to Internet, some more. This
study tells us that in general people using today's technology experience more
loneliness.

- Jed

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Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 13:39:18 -0700
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Hamdi Ucar wrote:

> Yes, I would last night a kind Caduceus Coil, maybe not the exact specs. I immediatly observed unique resonamce modes, and today obtained small ozone smell, sign of ionization of air, but with few hundred miliwats, no high voltage induced on the coil, n
o strong electric field around, could not investigate further becasue no scope is present. If you have a RF signal generator, you can observe these things comfortably I think, I can post the spec of my coil and the setup.

What was the type of caduceous coil you used? Did the winding start at
end A, go up to end B, turn, and continue back to end A? Or was it two
windings, both starting at end A, and terminating at end B? (see
attached .GIF) If you used the first setup, you will just have a
strangely wound solenoid coil. If you used the second setup, you have a
true caduceous coil. (non-inductive)

Forgive the badly rendered GIF file...I'm no artist;)
Kyle R. Mcallister

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Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:46:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Brillouin Scattering [Was Phonon]
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Got it. After your original post, that was pretty much what I was
thinking...just didn't articulate my thoughts well.

Cool -- Thanks

What are some good refs for more info on Brillouin's work?  The
article that keyed me into this was a NASA Tech Brief about using
Brillouin scattering for amplifying certain optical signals.  This
clears up some of mechanics of it for me. 

Once again --- another link between acoustics and photonics/RF. 
Perhaps Keely was onto something ;).


---Frederick J Sparber <fjsparb sprintmail.com> wrote:
> 
> As I interpret it Anton, it is more like the connection points of a
> three-dimensional network of interconnected springs where the springs
> represent the molecular bonds and the phonons are the quantized wave
> disturbances (caused by heat or sound)that propagate through these.
> 
> Brillouin showed that light can produce sound
> in a material, or sound will modulate
> light passing through the material.
> 
> C.H. Townes used a laser feedback system to generate hypersound in a
glass
> block, strong enough to shatter it.
> 
> Regards,   Frederick
> >
> >==
> >Anton Rager
> >a_rager yahoo.com
> >
> >_________________________________________________________
> >DO YOU YAHOO!?
> >Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> 
> 

==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
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From: Anton Rager <a_rager yahoo.com>
Subject: Polaron -vs- Phonon
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Are phonons and polarons related?  Is a polaron the action of an
electron disturbing phonons?



---"Frederick J. Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com> wrote:
>
> file:///C:\EB/_7.htm#first_hit
> >
> Britannica CD    Help
> 
> polaron,
> 
> electron moving through the constituent atoms of a solid material,
causing
> the neighbouring positive charges to shift toward it and the
neighbouring
> negative charges to shift away. This distortion of the regular
position of
> electrical charges constitutes a region of polarization that travels
along
> with the moving electron. After the electron passes, the region
returns to
> normal. An electron accompanied by this kind of electrical
displacement of
> neighbouring charges constitutes a polaron.
> 
> A polaron behaves as a negatively charged particle with a mass
greater than
> that of an isolated electron because of its interaction with the
surrounding
> atoms of the solid. The effect is most pronounced in ionic solids,
composed
> of positively and negatively charged atoms called ions, because the
forces
> between the electron and ions are strong. The strength of these
forces is
> reflected in the mass of the polaron. In common table salt, or sodium
> chloride, the mass of a polaron is more than twice the mass of a free
> electron.
> 
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Copyright (c) 1995 Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc. All Rights Reserved
> 
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Related Propaedia Topics:
> 
> Polarizing and diffusion properties and the nature of ionic conduction
> 
> [Image] Show Index links.
> 

==
Anton Rager
a_rager yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 11:53:49 1998
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ZPE wrote:
> Jerry Decker wrote:
> >  There seems to be something going on with the hot to cold
> >  transition which can indeed be tapped, either by an
> >  accumulation of ambient heat that is converted or some kind
> >  of strange dropoff that occurs in the vortex implosion....
> 
> ZPE wrote:
> >>  As you know, I have a lot that I could say on this, but I have
> >>  to refrain from saying anything, otherwise I may not be able to
> >>  shut up. 8^)
> 
> Jerry Decker wrote:
> > To me, this sounds like there might be a nerve in this hot to cold 
> > transition thing and I certainly would like to read your thoughts and 
> > considered comments on this subject and whether is it a key to your 
> > claim of being able to tap the vortex for o/u.

Jerry-

The connection does lie in with the temperature differential in ZPE's "proof of
concept" example.  It is the same principle, IMO, underlying the Tampere
experiment: temperature gradient interaction in an induced vortex containment
structure.  This experiment and others similar to it (from my perspective) are
what led me to my current "energy" stiction hypothesis.  It is the mechanism I
postulate by which an "energy" density gradient is created in each case.  This
"energy" density gradient the culprit of subsequent abnormal obervations (pick
your favorite theory to explain the observations.... ha ha ha).  

This is just ONE method of SEVERAL valid configurations IMO that should produce
similar signatures or results.  For example, CF cells accomplish the same thing
IMO, but in a different manner.  The energy drag comes from conductivity
differential and polarity bias, the short-lived containment from electrode
surface plasmoids.  Instead of one big gradient, you have several small
constructs.

The critical elements I see are:
  1) a system with which to rotationally drag "ambient energy" (for lack of a
better term) 
  2) a vortex-type containment mechanism to perpetuate an "energy" gradient.

>From there, materials and methods determine the expression the postulated
"energy" gradient; excess heat, atomic transmutation, gravity shielding, etc.

....or I could be just plain wrong.   8^)



-- 

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    John E. Steck
      Senior Mechanical Engineer
      Rapid Tooling Applications
      Motorola, Libertyville, IL
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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John Collins wrote:
> Does it not seem a little odd that the above comments do not elicit any
> excitement whatsoever considering that if correct they would lead to a
> complete solution to the energy crisis, pollution, consumption of earth's
> resources, anti-gravity machines, space exploration, third-world development
> and the world financial crisis?

No.  It would elicit excitement from me only if I got a nickle for each theory
presented online that promised the same things... 8^)

I have only one thing to suggest, prove it.  I promise you will get more email
than you can handle if you can do just that. 

Best wishes.


-- 

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    John E. Steck
      Senior Mechanical Engineer
      Rapid Tooling Applications
      Motorola, Libertyville, IL
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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The only thing making me lonely and depressed is this thread............

-- 

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    John E. Steck
      Senior Mechanical Engineer
      Rapid Tooling Applications
      Motorola, Libertyville, IL
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 12:28:44 1998
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Vo:

Several times, I've heard something called a 'scope camera' mentioned.
What is it anyways?

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 12:35:13 1998
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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Internet can make you lonely
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To: Vortex

Mitchell Jones writes:

     The study obviously reversed cause and effect. The truth is that people
     who are lonely and socially isolated are more likely to use the
     internet. Hence the correlation shown by the study.

Possibly, but I do not think so. I believe the authors looked at trends in the
lives of respondents. In other words, they tracked the history of respondents
to see whether they were happier and better adjusted before or after they used
Internet. I believe the assumption is that a random group of people in a given
age range will not become increasingly lonely or alienated over time on
average, except when there is an economic depression or some other mass
calamity. That's been pretty well established, with suicide statistics for
example. For every person who grows alienated, someone else is likely to grow
happier. If a significant number of Internet users become more alienated over
time, the Internet is a likely cause. Also, the researchers ask the
respondents directly: "do you think Internet makes you lonely?" Naturally,
people's memories of life before Internet are not necessarily reliable. It
would be better to follow a pool of subjects over time, reinterviewing them,
but that methodology is expensive.

I think Jones and Ucar have jumped to conclusions about this study. It would
be a good idea for them to read the study before commenting, or at least read
about it, as I have done. I also think it is off topic, so I'll stop talking
about it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 12:40:30 1998
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John

<The only thing making me lonely and depressed is this thread............>

Yip, me too.  So....................tell me instead about your Rapid
Tooling Applications....

- Soo
(desperately trying to avoid loneliness and depression)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 13:12:08 1998
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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
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Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 13:10:10 -0700
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On 02-Sep-98, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
>Vo:

>Several times, I've heard something called a 'scope camera' mentioned.
>What is it anyways?

 If you've noticed, around the scope (CRT) bezel, there's a groove.
 This facilitates the mounting of a Polaroid scope camera. Once mounted,
 you open the shutter and then trigger the sweep. 
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\--
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'
 http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 13:19:06 1998
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From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
> 
> Hamdi Ucar wrote:
> 
[snip]
> 
> What was the type of caduceous coil you used? Did the winding start at
> end A, go up to end B, turn, and continue back to end A? Or was it two
> windings, both starting at end A, and terminating at end B? (see
> attached .GIF) If you used the first setup, you will just have a
> strangely wound solenoid coil. If you used the second setup, you have a
> true caduceous coil. (non-inductive)
> 
> Forgive the badly rendered GIF file...I'm no artist;)
> Kyle R. Mcallister
> 

In my coil windings are are parallel without spacing like ordibary windings, not 90 degree, only crossing each other two times per loop.

Dimensions are 20 mm diameter, 60 mm length, wounded by 0.45mm wire (25AWG), 60 turns CW + 60 turns CWW windings.
Windings are not combined at each end, in my setup until now, if you label separate windings as 1 and 2, and ends as A and B,
I attach 1A to oscillator output, 2A to ground or to 30 cm free wire (or leave unconnected) and 1B, 2B left unconnected.

As the frequency is in range 10-60MHz, capacitive couplings are playing role, and a complex LC circuit resonate forming nodes along the coil, typically 9 nodes are present on 30-60MHz range( I have no instrument to measure the frequency, only I guess)

Due to parasitic capacitances (in my wounding scheme) it is not possible to obtain a non inductive coil, specially at RF. Rather I try profit from this capacitances to obtain some unusual results.

Regards, 
hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 13:39:50 1998
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Can someone clearly explain Trojan electrons to me? 

Eric

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I could also use more explanation of a polaron. Thanks

Eric

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At 04:37 PM 9/2/98 EDT, Eric wrote:
>I could also use more explanation of a polaron. Thanks


   The original paper is S.I. Pekar
"Untersuchungen uber die Elektronentheorie der Kristalle",
 Akademie-Verlag Berlin 1954

   or get "Molecular Science and Molecular Engineering"
by A. von Hippel, MIT Press 1959  see page 365

   Mitchell Swartz



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 14:14:39 1998
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Soo wrote:
> Tell me instead about your Rapid Tooling Applications....

Not much I can tell outside an NDA, but in a nutshell, injection molded parts
from production quality, hardened steel insert tools, in 5-15 working days from
data release.  I design the steel and expidite manufacturing.

Keeps me out of trouble.... 8^)


-- 

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    John E. Steck
      Senior Mechanical Engineer
      Rapid Tooling Applications
      Motorola, Libertyville, IL
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 14:18:32 1998
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From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Internet can make you lonely, depressed -
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Soo,

>> Chris Tinsley used to say that he regarded the "eyes
meeting across a crowded bar room" as the worst possible way to decide
someone would make a good life companion <<

I think the key word here is 'bar' for Chris's law to apply.  The original
was intended to apply to a romantic drawing room or other similar
setting.<G>

The eyes meeting in a bar could easily just be crossed!

Norman

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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So much for Incandescent Tungsten as an energy source.

http://wire.ap.org/?SLUG=TUNGSTEN%2dSHORTAGE

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In a message dated 9/2/98 12:16:10 PM, John Collins wrote (re the Bessler
Wheel Principle):

<<JC - I could show you a means of moving those masses on the balance beam,
under the influence of gravity, right now.  No additional forces required.>>

John, if you can demonstrate the "Bessler Wheel Principle" this way, you are
home free!  Forget the rotational demo.  (I assume that what you are saying is
that you think you can roll masses back and forth on a balance beam and have
it continue in its teeter-totter motion without outside applied force - if
that's the case, as I said, you are home free.  But as you know, this would
not be expected by ordinary physics and engineering 101!).

Best regards,

Hal Puthoff

Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 17:28:57 1998
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John Collins' book and Website have elicited some discussion, which not
surprisingly invites our colleagues to see it from their usual perspectives.

Of the various commentators, only Jed and myself have actually read the
book, so far as I can tell. As Jed frequently states, go read the source
papers, not someone's opinion about them. My review of Collins' book is in
the next issue of IE. Without going into the formal citation/response
format, I'm moved to the following comments.

Ross is a fluent contributor to vortex, working from his particular
theoretical foundation. However, his comments about Bessler and Collins are
a bit glib. Collins' book is a thorough bit of scholarship in digging up the
historical records and giving a coherent account of the four Wheels that
Bessler built. Any evaluation of the Bessler affair must confront the
following items, reported as facts from cited historical accounts:

The early Wheels moved in one direction, and had to be restrained to keep
them from rotating. One operated a trip hammer, repetitvely lifting a
weight, without slowing.
Later Wheels had stationary equilibrium, but would accelerate in either
direction with a slight push. In a public demonstration, a 70 lb. weight was
lifted many feet without the wheel slowing. One Wheel was sealed in a room
and operated continuously (no load) for weeks.
In a public demonstration, a Wheel was operated on one set of supports, then
moved to another and operated, with the supports inspected to assure no
hidden mechanism.

Witnesses included the local nobility, with official records. Technical
witnesses included Leibnitz, and a professor who was later scientific
adviser to Peter the Great. One man did see inside the Wheel on payment of a
sum and  oath not to disclose or replicate the mechanism; this man,
Landgrave Karl, became Bessler's protector.

One could dismiss all of this as clever historical fiction, but it carries a
flavor of carefully researched authenticity.

None of this is proof by 20th century standards. But we are dealing with
directly palpable effects in a time when all kinds of clockwork devices were
well understood and the basic principles of machines established. We have a
tendency toward temporal chauvinism, an arrogant assumption that people
living a few centuries (or mellenia) ago could not have been as clever as we
are. One need only contemplate the Antikythera  Mechanism or the pre-BCE
batteries to shatter that assumption. Why a technical civilization arose
here/now but not there/then is quite another subject.

Jed has defended his direct observation and measurement of a CETI cell at
PowerGen 95 against many criticisms. I do no want to engage that debate
again. My point is that the witnessed accounts of Bessler's demonstrations
in Collins' book have the same quality of authentic eyewitness accounts of a
remarkable machine.

My understanding is that John is attempting to rebuild Bessler's Wheel. I
wish him all possible success.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 19:13:33 1998
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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: [OFF TOPIC] GA Tech dating scene
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To: Vortex

Some of my daughter's friends have graduated from high school and gone on to
the Georgia Institute of Technology. Women rarely study engineering.
Two-thirds of Georgia tech undergrads are men. Many fit the Dilbert
engineering geek stereotype. The women say of the dating scene:

          The odds are good, but the goods are odd.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 20:25:59 1998
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From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Bessler's Wheel; some observations
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To: Vortex

Mike Carrell writes:

     Any evaluation of the Bessler affair must confront the following items,
     reported as facts from cited historical accounts . . .

In the present day, during Congressional testimony people often say things
about "Star Wars" technology or the hot fusion program which I do not believe.
Testimony about the effectiveness of the Patriot Missile systems during the
Gulf War convinced me that the experts have no idea whether any scud missiles
where hit or inconvenienced. From the point of view of linguistics, the
Japanese Fifth Generation Computer Project was fantasy. Newton devoted years
to alchemy. Bockris and others I respect believe there may be something to
alchemy, but I think it is nonsense Newton was a fool to waste time on it.

Experts and geniuses may seriously discuss results, and they believe they have
seen machines do this or that, but unless these results are widely replicated,
and seen by many people, we cannot believe them. I cannot believe them,
anyway. The immutable standard for science is replication, examination, and
independent verification with instruments. Above all, we must see what was
hidden under the cover of that Bessler machine. Before a final judgement is
made, details of the machine must be made public and other people must
replicate it. That never happened with Bessler's wheel. All we have is
anecdotal evidence, which does not count.


     The early Wheels moved in one direction, and had to be restrained to
     keep them from rotating. One operated a trip hammer, repetitively
     lifting a weight, without slowing.

If the weight was not large, or the machine did not run for long I think this
could easily be fraud.


     Later Wheels had stationary equilibrium, but would accelerate in either
     direction with a slight push.

This does not strike me as meaningful. Windup clockwork or a hidden crank
could easily accomplish this.


     In a public demonstration, a 70 lb. weight was lifted many feet without
     the wheel slowing. One Wheel was sealed in a room and operated
     continuously (no load) for weeks.

This kind of behavior can only be caused by a real effect or fraud. There is
no middle ground for an honest mistake or an exaggerated report from the
quality people who witnessed it. But I do not rule out fraud. Collins said
that the machine could not be turned with a small hidden crank from another
room, but I think he is wrong. I have seen crude 18th century wind up cooking
spits, suspended over fires, that could turn an off center roasting sheep for
a half hour between windings. I think it is easier to turn a large wheel, even
with a load, than Collins thinks. I think we need more data too. How long did
it take to lift the 70 lbs? How many feet?


     In a public demonstration, a Wheel was operated on one set of supports,
     then moved to another and operated, with the supports inspected to
     assure no hidden mechanism.

I think it is difficult to assure there was no hidden mechanism. Clockmakers,
toymakers, spy gear and sleight of hand magicians were amazingly skilled by
1600.


     One could dismiss all of this as clever historical fiction, but it
     carries a flavor of carefully researched authenticity.

I believe these accounts are real. I expect Leibniz did endorse the thing.
But, as I said, Newton endorsed alchemy, and many experts endorsed the Fifth
Generation Project and other A.I. projects which I think are far beyond our
present day understanding. We know as little about intelligence and language
as people in Newton's day knew about infectious disease.


     None of this is proof by 20th century standards.

I think it fails to meet 17th century standards.


     We have a tendency toward temporal chauvinism, an arrogant assumption
     that people living a few centuries (or mellenia) ago could not have been
     as clever as we are.

I don't. I think they were every bit as clever, which is why I hold them to
the same standards I hold the Fifth Generation experts today. Leibniz was a
great scientist but he missed the boat on this. He should have insisted on
seeing the inside by some arrangement, and he should have kept proper data.
Perhaps he did, and the data has been lost to history.


     Jed has defended his direct observation and measurement of a CETI cell
     at PowerGen 95 against many criticisms.

That is a good comparison! Let's look at the differences:

1. I used instruments, not only direct observation.

2. I saw inside the instrument: there were no hidden wires. It was made of
see-through plastic to facilitate this examination.

3. The experiment has been replicated to some extent by others, independently.
Not as much as we might wish, but U. Illinois, Motorola, and probably the
French AEC have seen roughly the same level of heat, proportional to the mass
of beads.

If it had never been replicated, by now I would conclude that my observations
were invalid or meaningless. I would retract my report, or least follow it up
with a strong statement that I no longer believe CETI's claims. Experimental
observations which are never repeated and never replicated elsewhere have no
meaning, except in rare cases of incontrovertible tests like the atom bomb
explosion. Even if I remained convinced that I saw what I saw, I would no
longer draw any conclusions from it. If, in 20 years, CETI has disappeared and
there are no follow-up experiments at U. Illinois or anywhere else, I will say
these results evaporated, and we will never know the truth. I think the Pons
and Fleischmann results are in another class. They have been so widely
replicated, at such high sigma levels that they are real beyond any doubt.
They may be forgotten in a hundred years, but the excess heat will be
undoubtably be real until the end of time.


     My point is that the witnessed accounts of Bessler's demonstrations in
     Collins' book have the same quality of authentic eyewitness accounts of
     a remarkable machine.

I have no doubt these eyewitness accounts are honest and real, but I think the
eyewitnesses were bamboozled. I cannot be sure, of course. They may have
bamboozled themselves. Think of everyone in the U.S. including most experts,
watching those dramatic televised explosions in the night sky during the gulf
war, and yelling "we hit another one!" What did we really see? Whatever made
anyone think the flashes, loud noises and falling debris meant anything?



     My understanding is that John is attempting to rebuild Bessler's Wheel.
     I wish him all possible success.

I do too. But I also wish he would refrain from categorically asserting the
effect is real until he succeeds.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 21:10:49 1998
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Subject: Per HTSC, Grav...Re: More gravity as a source of energy
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	Dear Vo., and all,

	See notes, cuts....

> 
> John Collins Wrote:

> signs of wierdness have ever been observed in the sense that a real test was
> put together and a physics lab, university, 3M, GE, etc. stood up and said,
> hey guys, all that stuff we learn is wrong for some reason with this device.
> 
> In order for there to have been anything really going on, then the
> gravitational mass on one side of a pulley would have to change as compared
.....> machine like this could run, but neither of these have been observed 
except
> in two reported, BUT NOT YET REPEATED, experiments, one in Tampere and one
> in Japan.
> 

	DEP DEP ...

	If you read  ALL of the papers buy Giovanni Modanese and Eugene 
E. Podkeltnov then you will find that associated with the EDGE of the 
HTSC there is an area that has been called 'the zone of exclusion' ... in 
a VERY rough desription any object which is pushed into the area of 
modified gravity, from the side, encounters a resistance which would 
maybe not be unlike going up a 'hill' to get to the ~ 2 percent 
gravitational change... this is described in the math by Modanese and 
also lets us know the conservation of energy is not violated.  
	I am NOT a math guy.... read ALL the papers....  Pete Skeggs' 
site is the only one still up, as far as I know.... I ran out of money a 
long time ago....

			JHS

> Both of those experiments used high tech equipment and techniques not
> available to the guys with wheels and pulleys.
> 

	NO.... My replication of EE Podkletnov's work was very low tech ..


> I had a guy come to my company (I do engineering design and manufacturing

> does not mean the other.
> 
> Later, Ross Tessien
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 21:12:46 1998
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Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 22:05:45 -0600
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Don't look good.

http://wire.ap.org/WORLD/americas/9809/02/swiss.crash.01/

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Sep  2 21:31:53 1998
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: For the sake....
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	Dear Vo.,

	Theoretically, for the sake of discussion... NOT flaming, but 
for the design of a potential experiment...:

	a] one takes a transmission line, leaky at one end.... so 
desigend as to allow PHASE propagation at super lumal, ie., 120% C.
	b] then a CW 910 m cps signal is established and is directed 
toward a set of two semi parabolic reflectors, so as to tend to return a 
useful percentage of the signal to a location adjacent to the launch point
	c] a last semi parabolic reflector is used to focus the signal to 
a simple mono or dipole antenna... which is then amplified by a MMIC 
[monolithic microwave IC]
	d] the Tranmit and receive  are ... robbed from a cell phone
	e] a KISS [keep it simple, stupid] phase shifter made from the T-R 
[transmit recieve] switch... ..from he same phone ... is used to slightly 
load the CW [continuous wave] transmission so as to be able to induce a 
20 degree [or so] phase shift.
	f] the TR switch is toggled at, say, 49 meg [robbed from a stupid 
cordless phone....] and the TOGGLE signal is fed to the trigger of a 2 
channel scope ....
	g] the return reflectors cause a path appropriate to sweep... 
depending on scope .... and the A nd B channel are used to calculate lag 
of signal....
	h] measurement of path length will yield time light takes to get 
there and back
	i] if needed a divider or heterodune] is used [robbed from the phone
to more easily see the phaes distortion event...


	Anyone got an easirer idea.... ANALOG!!!!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 02:33:56 1998
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Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] GA Tech dating scene
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Plenty of beardy weirdies.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 03:47:09 1998
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On Wed, 2 Sep 1998 SciBorg8 aol.com wrote:

> Can someone clearly explain Trojan electrons to me? 
> 
> Eric
> 

Weren't they some ska/dowop group on Trojan records doing covers of r 'n' 
b classics. You know, men in dark glasses and suits doing the robot to an 
insistent driving 2/4 beat?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 03:50:13 1998
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Subject: Re: Polaron -vs- Phonon
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On Wed, 2 Sep 1998 SciBorg8 aol.com wrote:

> I could also use more explanation of a polaron. Thanks
> 
> Eric
> 

It was an ancient greek alimoney case. Tragic.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 06:11:32 1998
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Subject: Re: Bessler's Wheel; some observations
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:12:27 +0100
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At 23:21 02/09/98 -0400, you wrote:
>To: Vortex
>
>Mike Carrell writes:
>
>     Any evaluation of the Bessler affair must confront the following items,
>     reported as facts from cited historical accounts . . .
>
>In the present day, during Congressional testimony people often say things
>about "Star Wars" technology or the hot fusion program which I do not believe.
>Testimony about the effectiveness of the Patriot Missile systems during the
>Gulf War convinced me that the experts have no idea whether any scud missiles
>where hit or inconvenienced. . . . Newton devoted years to alchemy. Bockris
and others I respect believe there may be something to alchemy, but I think
it is nonsense Newton was a fool to waste time on it.

JC - I agree Jed, but that doesn't mean that Leibniz was wrong about
Bessler, and of course, even he may have been wrong about somethings.  But
just as you can't necessarily believe everything a respected academic or
scientist proposes, so you can't chuck everything he says out.  Leibniz was
convinced by a number of different things which he determined about
Bessler's machine, which led him to conclude that it was genuine, but not
perpetual motion.
>
>Experts and geniuses may seriously discuss results, and they believe they have
>seen machines do this or that, but unless these results are widely replicated,
>and seen by many people, we cannot believe them.. . . All we have is
>anecdotal evidence, which does not count.

JC - Anecdotal evidence can be of varying quality and when it is supplied by
the likes of Leibniz, Hoffman, Wolff, s'Gravesand and numerous others, it
acquires a degree of authenticity.>
>
>     The early Wheels moved in one direction, and had to be restrained to
>     keep them from rotating. One operated a trip hammer, repetitively
>     lifting a weight, without slowing.
>
>If the weight was not large, or the machine did not run for long I think this
>could easily be fraud.

JC - The early wheels measured up to 5feet in diameter by 1 foot thick,
turned at 50 revs per minute, lifted weights of 50 pounds 60 feet into the
air via a pulley.
>
>
>     Later Wheels had stationary equilibrium, but would accelerate in either
>     direction with a slight push.
>
>This does not strike me as meaningful. Windup clockwork or a hidden crank
>could easily accomplish this.

The later wheels were designed to turn in either direction at the whim of
the examiners, to answer just that criticism (that they were driven by
clockwork).  The result was that they did not begin to turn spontaneously,
but needed a slight push.  They began to accelerate as soon as the first
weight was heard to fall, to a speed half that of the former wheels.
>
>     In a public demonstration, a 70 lb. weight was lifted many feet without
>     the wheel slowing. One Wheel was sealed in a room and operated
>     continuously (no load) for weeks.
>
>This kind of behavior can only be caused by a real effect or fraud. There is
>no middle ground for an honest mistake or an exaggerated report from the
>quality people who witnessed it. But I do not rule out fraud. Collins said
>that the machine could not be turned with a small hidden crank from another
>room, but I think he is wrong. I have seen crude 18th century wind up cooking
>spits, suspended over fires, that could turn an off center roasting sheep for
>a half hour between windings. I think it is easier to turn a large wheel, even
>with a load, than Collins thinks. I think we need more data too. How long did
>it take to lift the 70 lbs? How many feet?

JC - We shall have to disagree on that one Jed.  Personally I don't believe
that that would have been possible and I speak as an engineer.  The torque
would have been enormous and I doubt if the materials would have taken the
load anyway ( and I doubt if we could manufacture sufficient strength now).
The wheel lifted the weight from the courtyard of the castle up to the roof
and in through a window, via a pulley.  That distance was estimated to be
about 70 feet.  Although the time for this was not given, it can be worked
out quite easily because the other end of the rope was tied around the axle,
which measured six inches in thickness and turned at 26 revs per minute.
>
>
>     In a public demonstration, a Wheel was operated on one set of supports,
>     then moved to another and operated, with the supports inspected to
>     assure no hidden mechanism.
>
>I think it is difficult to assure there was no hidden mechanism. Clockmakers,
>toymakers, spy gear and sleight of hand magicians were amazingly skilled by
>1600.

JC - The wheel weighed around 700 pounds, it is clear from the evidence in
written reports both official and unoffical that there was no connection
between the outside of the machine and any other mechanism or structure,
therefore either the "hidden" mechanism was in the bearings, hence the
demonstration by translocation, or it was contained inside the wheel.  I
doubt that there would have been enough room inside the wheel to hide enough
clockwork to make it turn for one day let alone fifty-four.
>
>
>     One could dismiss all of this as clever historical fiction, but it
>     carries a flavor of carefully researched authenticity.
>
>I believe these accounts are real. I expect Leibniz did endorse the thing.
>But, as I said, Newton endorsed alchemy.  We know as little about
intelligence and language as people in Newton's day knew about infectious
disease.

JC - If you had read the reports of the eyewitnesses as I have Jed, and I
know that you cannot have done because they are difficult to obtain (it took
me many years), you would see that there is nothing different about these
guys in the 18th C compared to now.  They may have used a different
language, their culture was clearly alien, but their thought processes were
just the same, and they were still amazed but suspicious, and the flavour of
their responses comes through quite plainly.  They would have given anything
to be the one to de-bunk Bessler.  He was not a popular guy with the
academics and philosophers and they wrote some pretty malicious stuff about
him, but they were almost all converted to a belief in his machine
eventually by the sheer impossibility of obtaining the results that he did
in any other way.
>
>
>     None of this is proof by 20th century standards.
>
>I think it fails to meet 17th century standards.

18th C. but whose counting
>
>
>     We have a tendency toward temporal chauvinism, an arrogant assumption
>     that people living a few centuries (or mellenia) ago could not have been
>     as clever as we are.
>
>I don't. I think they were every bit as clever. Leibniz was a
>great scientist but he missed the boat on this. He should have insisted on
>seeing the inside by some arrangement, and he should have kept proper data.
>Perhaps he did, and the data has been lost to history.

JC - Leibniz did try to insist on seeing the inside of the machine, but
Bessler was equally insistant that no one should see it until he had
received the money.  He only had the one chance to sell it because obviously
once one person knew the secret in order to take advantage of it he would
have to build a working model and then the secret would be out.  He offered
to let Leibniz see inside the machine for the total sum but Leibniz  turned
it down because he couldn't afford it.  I have quoted from the letters
Leibniz wrote concerning the wheel and you can read all the questions he
asked about the performance of the wheel then.  And that was before he paid
a visit to examine the machine and to test its performance for his own
satisfaction.  You raise a good point - there may exist somewhere his
personal conclusions and descriptions of his tests.  I'll look into it.>

>     My point is that the witnessed accounts of Bessler's demonstrations in
>     Collins' book have the same quality of authentic eyewitness accounts of
>     a remarkable machine.
>
>I have no doubt these eyewitness accounts are honest and real, but I think the
>eyewitnesses were bamboozled. I cannot be sure, of course. They may have
>bamboozled themselves.

JC - That is why I looked in such detail at the evidence presented in the
eyewitess reports.  I have to believe someone when he says "it was clear
right at the start that there was not the slightest evidence of any thing
connecting the wheel with any other part of the room".  That is why the
"detractors" claimed that the hidden connection was in the actual bearings.
There wasn't anywhere else for them to place it.  Subsequent examinations
which included the translocation from one set of bearings to another, were
described in equally unequivocal terms  -"nothing of suspicion was found by
any of the assembled august gathering, though we scrutinised the bearings
with unparallelled rigour".  And I still maintain that it would not have
been possible (as was claimed by the "detractors") to drive such a heavy
device for even one hour if at all, let alone the 54 days, and also do work,
>
>     My understanding is that John is attempting to rebuild Bessler's Wheel.
>     I wish him all possible success.
>
>I do too. But I also wish he would refrain from categorically asserting the
>effect is real until he succeeds.

JC - Yes I am but I'm just one among hundreds.  Sorry, I do get a bit
assertive! It is after all only a theory - to date.

John
John Collins

Author of 'Perpetual Motion; An Ancient Mystery Solved?' - for more
information and details on ordering visit my web site at
http://www.free-energy.co.uk

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 06:19:50 1998
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    At 11:21 PM 9/2/98 -0400, Jed wrote:

>3. The experiment has been replicated to some extent by others,
independently.
>Not as much as we might wish, but U. Illinois, Motorola, and probably the
>French AEC have seen roughly the same level of heat, proportional to the mass
>of beads.

  Are you claiming that U. Illinois, Motorola, and the French AEC
   reported a kilowatt of excess heat?   

  Not by my reading of their reports and spokespeople. 

  Or are you claiming you had a kilogram of beads?

  Nickel light water systems have very low levels of (peak) excess heat
in the ~80 milliwatt/cm2 range.  

        Mitchell Swartz




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 06:24:04 1998
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> To: Vortex
>
> Some of my daughter's friends have graduated from high school and gone on to
> the Georgia Institute of Technology. Women rarely study engineering.
> Two-thirds of Georgia tech undergrads are men. Many fit the Dilbert
> engineering geek stereotype. The women say of the dating scene:
>
>           The odds are good, but the goods are odd.
>
> - Jed

If you think the guys are odd, you should see the Co-Techs (Co-eds at Tech).

Terry
Ga Tech class of '76



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 06:33:29 1998
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Paper: cond-mat/9809025
From: Aldo Humberto Romero <aromero hypatia.ucsd.edu>
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 01:50:16 GMT   (87kb)

Title: Polaron Effective Mass, Band Distortion, and Self-Trapping in the
  Holstein Molecular Crystal Model
Authors: Aldo H. Romero, David W. Brown and Katja Lindenberg
Comments: 28 pages, 15 figures
Subj-class: Strongly Correlated Electrons
\\
  We present polaron effective masses and selected polaron band structures of
the Holstein molecular crystal model in 1-D as computed by the Global-Local
variational method over a wide range of parameters. These results are
augmented
and supported by leading orders of both weak- and strong-coupling perturbation
theory. The description of the polaron effective mass and polaron band
distortion that emerges from this work is comprehensive, spanning weak,
intermediate, and strong electron-phonon coupling, and non-adiabatic, weakly
adiabatic, and strongly adiabatic regimes. Using the effective mass as the
primary criterion, the self-trapping transition is precisely defined and
located. Using related band-shape criteria at the Brillouin zone edge, the
onset of band narrowing is also precisely defined and located. These two lines
divide the polaron parameter space into three regimes of distinct polaron
structure, essentially constituting a polaron phase diagram. Though the
self-trapping transition is thusly shown to be a broad and smooth
phenomenon at
finite parameter values, consistency with notion of self-trapping as a
critical
phenomenon in the adiabatic limit is demonstrated. Generalizations to higher
dimensions are considered, and resolutions of apparent conflicts with
well-known expectations of adiabatic theory are suggested.
\\ ( http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/cond-mat/9809025 ,  87kb)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 06:37:40 1998
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From: John Collins <jcollins free-energy.co.uk>
Subject: Re:  Re: More gravity as a source of energy
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:38:19 +0100
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At 18:37 02/09/98 EDT, you wrote:
>
>In a message dated 9/2/98 12:16:10 PM, John Collins wrote (re the Bessler
>Wheel Principle):
>
><<JC - I could show you a means of moving those masses on the balance beam,
>under the influence of gravity, right now.  No additional forces required.>>
>
>John, if you can demonstrate the "Bessler Wheel Principle" this way, you are
>home free!  Forget the rotational demo.  (I assume that what you are saying is
>that you think you can roll masses back and forth on a balance beam and have
>it continue in its teeter-totter motion without outside applied force - if
>that's the case, as I said, you are home free.  But as you know, this would
>not be expected by ordinary physics and engineering 101!).
>
>Best regards,
>
>Hal Puthoff

Nearly Hal, but see my email to you.    (With great respect) -  You say
"without outside applied force" and I say but there is an outside applied
force - gravity.  Therefore still within the bounds of accepted physics and
engineering.

John Collins
John Collins

Author of 'Perpetual Motion; An Ancient Mystery Solved?' - for more
information and details on ordering visit my web site at
http://www.free-energy.co.uk

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 06:52:14 1998
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On Thu, 3 Sep 1998, Remi Cornwall wrote:

> It was an ancient greek alimoney case. Tragic.
> 


Remi, what's the point of your current string of messages?


Are you trying to attract complaints from other subscribers?  If not, then
please be aware that they do have that effect.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 08:05:11 1998
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Sept. 3, 1998

Edmund Storms, 2140 Paseo Ponderosa, Santa Fe, NM 87501-6319,
505-988-3673  storms2 ix.netcom.com

Hello,  Yesterday I had a very amiable visit at Ed Storms' hilltop
house, where he showed me his extensive system for storing 4500 gallons
of rainwater from his roof, two 500 gallon propane tanks, and a 6,000 W,
10 HP generator, in sensible preparation for the Y2K crisis on Jan. 1,
2000, something I am also very concerned about-- we met at a concerned
citizens meeting the previous night.  His wife Carol Talcott-Storms,
also an electrochemist, has a sunny stained glass studio, full of jars
of glass gems.  Dozens of hummingbirds flitted gracefully about many
feeders on the decks, right in front of our noses.

Writers and photographers from Wired magazine had visited a week or so
ago, for a long CF article by Charles Platt [cp panix.com].

For 2.5 hours, we talked, and he showed me his double calorimeter, able
to detect reliably 0.1 W.  I was very interested in his work with
lowcost Pd films, 2 to 20 microns thick, on Pt.  He has measured loading
of D/Pd up to ~ 1.5, which is very high.  He said 3 out of 7 of these ~1
cm2 cathodes reached up to .6 W excess at 15W input after a few days of
loading.  However, these cathodes still vary a lot in their properties
from one another, so there is no way to guarantee excess heat, and
apparently, after an excess heat event, the cathode has changed and will
no longer react.

I shared ideas about making a cell with a micron thickness cathode, 3X3
cm, with the electrolytic cell on one side, and the outer side viewed by
a $ 100 digital camera, so images could be made in visible light, and,
by removing the lens and setting up a pinhole camera, UV and IR, also. 
Since a $ 1,000 PC now has 6 GB hard disk, it would be easy to store an
image, especially with data compression, every second for a week, so any
momentary hot spot reactions could be instantly detected and permanently
recorded, so the amount of energy and exact location could be proved. 
It would also be possible to monitor alpha, beta, gamma, and neutron
radiation, passing through the thin foil, and acoustic signals that
travel along the foil to the edges.  So, the cell could be simplified by
not doing the usual calorimetry, and focussing entirely on proving the
existence of transient hot spot reactions.  An astronomy club could help
with providing cameras and software.  Also, Pd film can be deposited
directly on a CCD chip, making a ~1 cm cathode, so any events on the
film can be recorded directly by the image software.

If he continues to get about a 50 % excess heat success rate with his
thin Pd film cathodes, this could be a feasible research strategy.  He
says that the current density has to be >= .25 A/cm2, and the ~ 15 V
voltage has to be adjusted to load the cathode and then trigger heat
bursts.  A 10 cm2 cathode would need about 400 W.

The Pd plating can be done easily in an hour, using an organic Pd
solution from a jewelry supply company, a quart for ~ $ 50, Rio Grande
Midas Pd Solution, # 335-013,  800-545-6566  Alb., NM 87121.

I suggested he set up a Web page for his papers and to attract advice,
support, and collaborators.  He gave me his 40-page paper, with 92
references, "Cold Fusion Revisted," requested by but then rejected by
the International Journal of Modern Physics, to be published soon in
Infinite Energy.  Dated June 27, 1998, he took about 6 months to write
it, but the referees denounced it-- what else is new?  His goal is to
alert open-minded researchers to the possibilities.  It has  2
references for 1997, none for 1998, and is a sensible, restrained,
modest summary.  The first 23 double-spaced pages summarize well-known
experiments.  To give the flavor of his report, I'll select a few
quotes.

He says about the Arata & Zhang cell, which in 1997 was claimed in long,
detailed summary papers to produce about 20% excess heat for months with
six out of six cathodes:  "Because the work has been done with great
care, interest in the results is growing.  Several attempts in Japan to
duplicte the results have failed because, according to Prof. Arata, the
proper protocols were not followed.  Additional efforts are underway in
the U.S."  This is the first I've heard about attempts to replicate what
seems to be a simple, robust, sure-fire experiment-- does anyone have
any details?

About the Cincinnati Group and CETI (Patterson) cells for radioactive
remediation via transmutation, he says: "A number of organizations [57]
are proposing to use this effect to quickly convert radioactive isotopes
to stable ones.  These claims are still uncertain and are being actively
pursued using a variety of methods and chemical environments."

About the Miley (CETI, Patterson) transmutation in thin film Ni in H2O, 
"While most questions about the analytical methods have been answered,
the nature of the nuclear process is still very much in doubt."

About the Mizuno, Ohmori, Enyo, et al transmutation claims, "Abnormal
isotopic ratios resulting from formation of metal hydride molecules,
which distort SIMS measurements, or because of isotopic separation
caused by electromigration may occur but are difficult to justify in all
cases."

About Stringham and George's ultrasonic cavitation cells with pure D2O,
"Unfortunately, details of the process and the results are not available
to the public although a general description can be found in Infinite
Energy Magazine. [71]  This is one of the few methods having high
reproducibility and producing significant amounts of energy and nuclear
products.  People interested in the method can obtain more information
by contacting the inventors."    [rgeorge hooked.net]

IV DISCUSSION: "Separating fact from fiction is the main problem in
evaluating the value of these extraordinary claims.  The basis in
accepting evidence for such unconventional nuclear reactions is very
much in the mind of the beholder.  Is the reader familiar with the
technique?  Are the investigators known to the reader and can they be
trusted?  Is the work peer reviewed by an acceptible journal? 
Unfortunately, most people working tin this field are not known to the
general physics community and most of the work is not peer reviewed by
acceptible journals...Unfortunately, many studies can not be judged
because so little detail has been properly described and many of the
techniques have not been used by several independent investigators.  On
the other hand, some very good studies are available which use
conventional, well accepted techniques.  In addition, similar results
have been obtained using a wide range of methods and techniques in
laboratories throughout the world, only a small fraction of which are
described in this review.  While this common experience is not proof, it
encourages continued open-minded interest in the field...very sensitive
to the the chemical environment in which the reactions are thought to
occur.  Because few experiments use identical chemical environments, the
results seem to have no clear pattern and are difficult to reproduce. 
Although error and incompetence add to the problem, these are clearly
not the main variables.  Accepting this insight is fundamental to
accepting the claims...More complex reactions giving a spectrum of
products seem to be possible...Particularly troublesome are the lack of
resolution in the neutron/proton ratio between the apparent reactants
and products and the lack of corrresponding energy production."

V. CONCLUSIONS:  "I can sympathize with anyone struggling with the
reality of and meaning behind these disparate observations.  Because
skepticism is so wide spread, an intese effort by skilled and well
funded scientists required to answer many of the questions has not been
applied to the problem.  The need for proof to be "compelling", as many
scientists require, adds to the difficulty.  Nevertheless, I suggest
sufficient information is now available to strongly support claims for
certain nuclear reactions taking place under conditions not sanctioned
by conventional theory...I suggest that lack of certainty about its
reality or a lack of knowledge about many of the details should be
viewed as temporary distractions and not used as justifications for
ignoring the potential benefits.  Even if many of the claims have
trivial explanations, the evidence now overwhelmingly indicates the
existence of a novel phenomenon having unexplored benefits.  Why not
test the possibilities no matter how remote they seem?"

Ed also gave me his ICCF-7 paper, 9 pages, "Relationship between
open-circuit-voltage and heat production in a Pons-Fleischmann cell,
about his own thin Pd film work, and "Formation of Beta-PdD containing
high deuterium concentration using electrolysis of heavy-water, Journal
of Alloys and Compounds, 268 (1998) 89-99, 40 references, submitted Oct.
15, 1997, revised Nov. 11, 1997, giving details and findings from work
with Pd cathodes, 1X2X.1 cm.

Rich Murray
Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 87505
5095-986-9103
rmforall earthlink.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 08:13:14 1998
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Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:03:57 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Ni CF power density
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To: Vortex

I wrote: "U. Illinois, Motorola, and probably the French AEC have seen roughly
the same level of heat, proportional to the mass of beads [as CETI]." That was
an error. I should have said: "proportional to the mass of metal in the
beads."

Mitchell Swartz asked:

     Are you claiming that U. Illinois, Motorola, and the French AEC reported
     a kilowatt of excess heat?

No, that would not be proportional. The large CETI cell had more beads with
thicker film than the others. I think there was 40 ~ 400 times more metal in
the large cell.


     Nickel light water systems have very low levels of (peak) excess heat in
     the ~80 milliwatt/cm2 range.

CETI has seen much higher power density, and so have the gas loaded nickel
systems, especially Piantelli, which has not been replicated. However the CETI
cells that produced high power might have been a mixture of nickel and
palladium. I do not recall. Perhaps pure nickel systems are limited to low
power density, but I doubt it.

Some people think Ni CF effect occurs at the surface, so the mass of Ni is not
a controlling factor, only the surface area matters. I do not know about that.
I think the layers of Pd and Ni in some CETI beads conduct hydrogen to the Ni
surface. I do not think the Pd itself is producing heat with light hydrogen
and low loading.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 08:53:35 1998
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Subject: Ni CF power density - addendum
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To: Vortex

This time I wrote:

    U. Illinois, Motorola, and probably the French AEC have seen roughly
    the same level of heat, proportional to the mass of metal in the beads
    as CETI.

I should add: . . . according to George Miley.

That's his observation. He knows more about the mass of metal than I do, and
a lot else too.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 09:04:48 1998
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re:  Re: More gravity as a source of energy
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>At 18:37 02/09/98 EDT, you wrote:
>>
>>In a message dated 9/2/98 12:16:10 PM, John Collins wrote (re the Bessler
>>Wheel Principle):
>>
>><<JC - I could show you a means of moving those masses on the balance beam,
>>under the influence of gravity, right now.  No additional forces required.>>
>>
>>John, if you can demonstrate the "Bessler Wheel Principle" this way, you are
>>home free!  Forget the rotational demo.  (I assume that what you are saying is
>>that you think you can roll masses back and forth on a balance beam and have
>>it continue in its teeter-totter motion without outside applied force - if
>>that's the case, as I said, you are home free.  But as you know, this would
>>not be expected by ordinary physics and engineering 101!).
>>
>>Best regards,
>>
>>Hal Puthoff
>
>Nearly Hal, but see my email to you.    (With great respect) -  You say
>"without outside applied force" and I say but there is an outside applied
>force - gravity.  Therefore still within the bounds of accepted physics and
>engineering.
>
>John Collins

John:

When you say, "I could show you a means...", I assume you are telling me
that you do not have an apparatus, and that you have not seen an apparatus
actually in operation, running forever.  Correct me if that is not accurate.

You say it uses an outside applied force, gravity, and your usage there is
semantics.  The device you describe is NOT within the bounds of accepted
physics.  So either you don't know what you are talking about, or, one of
your two statements is not accurate.  Which is it?

Hal is correct, if you, or anyone, could do that they would have ten million
dollars in funding within a couple of months of effort.  And if you can do
it, I will get you ten million dollars in funding within months if you can't
get it on your own.  

So why on God's green earth are you hiding in the closet if you have the
prize everyone has sought for thousands of years right in your garage?
Don't you want mankind to benefit from your tremendous re-creation of
Bessler's wheel?

Yes I am being sarcastic, (jokingly and no insults intended as to your
intentions, I am poking at your "beliefs", which I consider to be inaccurate
in that you are saying you could do something you cannot.  You could tell me
to do this or that, but if I did it and it failed, your confidence would
lead you to tell me I did it wrong.  I am telling you that your belief is, I
think, wrong)

If you have the device working, then bring it out into the open and show us
how it works, or, file for patents and start selling it, as you choose.  And
if you need money to patent and market it, then either get it, or come and
get it.  but if you don't have anything, then don't imply in your messages
to this group that you do.

Ross Tessien



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 09:39:21 1998
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Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:27:02 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Murray's UV detection scheme
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To: Vortex

Rich Murray wrote a fine report of his visit with Ed Storms. It is a pleasure
to see such construtive information from him.

Murray describes a scheme to detect hot spots on a thin film cathode:

     I shared ideas about making a cell with a micron thickness cathode, 3X3
     cm, with the electrolytic cell on one side, and the outer side viewed by
     a $ 100 digital camera, so images could be made in visible light, and,
     by removing the lens and setting up a pinhole camera, UV and IR, also.

This sounds tricky. I do not understand how it would work. I gather the
cathode would be incorporated in the wall of cell. It might cover a hole in
the bottom of a cylindrical cell. Some people call this a diaphragm cathode.
How do you mount a fragile micron thick foil in a cell wall? How would you
seal the edges? Would it hold the water back? I think the water would permeate
through, and loading would be on one side only, so it might be uneven. I do
not know the geometry of Storms' thin film anode & cathode.

The problem with an ordinary cell is that the cathode is in water and behind
glass, which blurs or stops the UV and IR. Many people have discussed ways to
overcome this. It is a perennial topic at ICCF discussion groups. Several
people have constructed diaphragm cathode cells, with mixed results. I have
never heard of one with such a thin foil cathode.

Even x-rays are stopped by the cells. Most of them, anyway. That is why the
Italians and others have such trouble measuring them. Several people have
suggested depositing thin film on beryllium and constructing a cell around it,
making the Be part of the cell wall. X-rays pass through Be more easily than
water and glass.  It transmits X-rays 17 times as well as aluminum according
to Britannica. Two or three people did this experiment years ago, with
encouraging results. Be is a health hazard.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 09:50:35 1998
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>, Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: UV, Xray...
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	Dear Rich and Vo.,

	There are fairly simple LW, SW and V UV and x ray metohds that 
can be used.  A conversion phosphor in placed next to possible source... 
then the output is in the visible domain.

				JHS

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 10:56:03 1998
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Patriot (was Re: Bessler's Wheel; some observations)
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At 11:21 PM 9/2/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>In the present day, during Congressional testimony people often say things
>about "Star Wars" technology or the hot fusion program which I do not
believe.
>Testimony about the effectiveness of the Patriot Missile systems during the
>Gulf War convinced me that the experts have no idea whether any scud missiles
>where hit or inconvenienced.

    This is just flat not true.  The experts know, and one of the chief
issues in the evaluation of the effectiveness of the Patriot against Scuds
was determining why it worked so well.  (It turned out from analysis of the
data that the shock wave from the Patriot going off disrupted the bow shock
from the Scud.  In effect the Scud ran into a brick wall even if no pieces
of the Patriot hit the Scud.)

    Why was there so much frothing at the mouth at the Congressional
hearings?  The military and the Israelis wanted their competitive weapons
to have a chance, and the anti-war lobby was paniced by the implications of
the Scud data for "Star Wars" or any other anti-missile technology--it
makes all those so called "penetration aids" excess baggage and making the
defenders job much easier.  (So the military also didn't want to be out
there saying we goofed big time.)

    So what was all the hoo-rah about?  Well you have an incomming missile
at three thousand miles an hour, even if you convert it to junk and burn
any chemical or biological contents up, you still have enough scrap iron to
make a big hole when it hits.  But big is ten feet in diameter, which
compared to what a successful missile could and did do, was chump change.
(Note that when missile wreckage did land in one piece it meant that the
warhead was not filled with explosives...)

    What the opponents of the Patriot system were working from was TV and
film footage. As the then President of MITRE testified, you cannot tell
from anything other than very high-speed cameras or special radars whether
or not the Patriot affected the Scud.  (To put this in perspective, closing
rates were about two miles a second.  The Patriot would calculate when to
explode for maximum effect, often less than 100 feet before the closest
approach.  Even if the shutter on the camera was open at the "right" time,
it would be open for longer than the encounter.)
 
    (Incidently all of this is open source material, in fact you probably
saw some of it live.  The problem is understanding the bafflegab that was
being thrown around.  When an "expert" says that many of the missles
tumbled and this could have caused them to fail.  That expert was
conveniently forgetting to mention that all of the observed cases of
tumbling started right after a Patriot intercept.) 

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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Subject: Tungsten shortage?
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At 04:20 PM 9/2/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>So much for Incandescent Tungsten as an energy source.
 
   Please read the story before posting!  The "shortage" if there is one,
is due to high US tariffs on Chinese ore.  Osram Sylvania wants the DoD to
release ore from its stockpile.  The competitors, who buy refined Chinese
ore at a much lower tariff are objecting...

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 11:22:34 1998
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From: John Collins <jcollins free-energy.co.uk>
Subject: Re:  Re: More gravity as a source of energy
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 19:22:35 +0100
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At 09:04 03/09/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>At 18:37 02/09/98 EDT, you wrote:
>>>
>>>In a message dated 9/2/98 12:16:10 PM, John Collins wrote (re the Bessler
>>>Wheel Principle):
>>>
>>><<JC - I could show you a means of moving those masses on the balance beam,
>>>under the influence of gravity, right now.  No additional forces required.>>
>>>
>>>John, if you can demonstrate the "Bessler Wheel Principle" this way, you are
>>>home free!  Forget the rotational demo.  (I assume that what you are
saying is
>>>that you think you can roll masses back and forth on a balance beam and have
>>>it continue in its teeter-totter motion without outside applied force - if
>>>that's the case, as I said, you are home free.  But as you know, this would
>>>not be expected by ordinary physics and engineering 101!).

>John:
>
>When you say, "I could show you a means...", I assume you are telling me
>that you do not have an apparatus, and that you have not seen an apparatus
>actually in operation, running forever.  Correct me if that is not accurate.

JC - What I meant was that I had designed a mechanism that will, under the
force of gravity, push a mass sideways instead of downwards, and then, at
the lowest position in the cycle cause it to pull itself inwards towards the
center of gravity.  It does exist and it works, but I am still working on
the precise positioning of it.  Maybe it still won't cause the balance beam
to rotate?
>
>You say it uses an outside applied force, gravity, and your usage there is
>semantics.  The device you describe is NOT within the bounds of accepted
>physics.  So either you don't know what you are talking about, or, one of
>your two statements is not accurate.  Which is it?

JC - Semantics?  I don't think so.  Perhaps I don't knopw what I am talking
about, Ross.  I only know what I see and that is what I described above.  It
depends on gravity to work, because if gravity was not present it would not
work.  Now if as you say that is not within the bounds of accepted physics
then so be it.  

>Hal is correct, if you, or anyone, could do that they would have ten million
>dollars in funding within a couple of months of effort.  And if you can do
>it, I will get you ten million dollars in funding within months if you can't
>get it on your own.  
>
>So why on God's green earth are you hiding in the closet if you have the
>prize everyone has sought for thousands of years right in your garage?
>Don't you want mankind to benefit from your tremendous re-creation of
>Bessler's wheel?
>
>Yes I am being sarcastic, (jokingly and no insults intended as to your
>intentions, I am poking at your "beliefs", which I consider to be inaccurate
>in that you are saying you could do something you cannot.  You could tell me
>to do this or that, but if I did it and it failed, your confidence would
>lead you to tell me I did it wrong.  I am telling you that your belief is, I
>think, wrong)
>
>If you have the device working, then bring it out into the open and show us
>how it works, or, file for patents and start selling it, as you choose.  And
>if you need money to patent and market it, then either get it, or come and
>get it.  but if you don't have anything, then don't imply in your messages
>to this group that you do.

JC - OUCH!  Ross I've got right up your nose haven't I?  There is no device
- yet.  But I do have what I believe is part of the mechanism that Bessler
used.  You of course do not believe in him, but I do.  He stated that if a
person with an acute mind was to study certain drawings that he had left
behind, then that person might eventually discover a mechanism, and further
study might lead to the solution of Bessler's wheel.  Now I don't claim to
have an acute mind, but years of study have made me very familiar with
everything about Bessler and IMHO I think I have found the mechanism.  All I
have to do is fit it in the right way and - bingo!  But that is just my
opinion and if I have stepped on your sensibilities, I apologise.

John
>
>Ross Tessien
>
>
>
>
John Collins

Author of 'Perpetual Motion; An Ancient Mystery Solved?' - for more
information and details on ordering visit my web site at
http://www.free-energy.co.uk

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 11:22:54 1998
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Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:13:57 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Arata cell is difficult
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To: Vortex

Rich Murray writes of the Arata & Zhang cell:

     This is the first I've heard about attempts to replicate what seems to
     be a simple, robust, sure-fire experiment-- does anyone have any
     details?

This is not a simple, robust or sure-fire experiment. There are no such
experiments in CF. This happens to one of the most difficult, mainly because
the double structured cathode is hard to fabricate and it can rupture from the
pressure. McKubre described some of the frustrations in a lecture about SRI's
attempt to replicate Arata, but I do not see a paper about it in ICCF6 or
ICCF7.

- Jed

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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "George" <gsparb juno.com>
Subject: Re: Tungsten shortage?
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-----Original Message-----
From: Robert I. Eachus <eachus mitre.org>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Thursday, September 03, 1998 12:20 PM
Subject: Tungsten shortage?

Got your attention, didn't I?   :-)

Regards,   Frederick

Robert wrote:


>At 04:20 PM 9/2/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>>So much for Incandescent Tungsten as an energy source.
> 
>   Please read the story before posting!  The "shortage" if there is one,
>is due to high US tariffs on Chinese ore.  Osram Sylvania wants the DoD to
>release ore from its stockpile.  The competitors, who buy refined Chinese
>ore at a much lower tariff are objecting...
>
>                                        Robert I. Eachus
>
>with Standard_Disclaimer;
>use  Standard_Disclaimer;
>function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 12:30:13 1998
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John Schnurer wrote:

<snip experiment idea>

That's the basic idea I had for inducing a phase shift in the CW. When
my o-scope gets here (I ordered it today, $500), I'll set up the
experiment and test it out. If I find anything interesting, I'll post it
here. I'll also see if I can get my results published in a respectable
journal. Maybe then the science community would begin to see that
superluminal velocities aren't out of the question.

On a different note...: I've heard that one can't send signals by phase
modulation at FTL; they say that the phase change never exceeds the
speed of light. I don't know, but I will try the experiment anyways.

Kyle R. Mcallister

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Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 14:55:15 -0500
From: John Steck <John_Steck css.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola PCS - Rapid Tooling Applications
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Subject: Re: More gravity as a source of energy
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John Collins wrote:
> But I do have what I believe is part of the mechanism that Bessler used.
> All I have to do is fit it in the right way.

Ok, finally to the interesting stuff... 8^)

What of this mechanism can you share?  Is it something you can diagram and post
on your website for us screw counters to look at?  If confidentiality is an
issue I would be happily agree to a NDA/NCA.  Consider it done with this
message.

Ball is in your court.... 


-- 

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    John E. Steck
      Senior Mechanical Engineer
      Rapid Tooling Applications
      Motorola, Libertyville, IL
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 14:37:40 1998
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Tungsten shortage?
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:37:07 -0700 
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Frederick	
	Every time I try to access one of your newsbrteifs, I get the front
page, and cant find what you are referring too without a lot of searching,
and often not even then. Whats the secret?
Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Frederick J Sparber[SMTP:fjsparb sprintmail.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, September 03, 1998 11:21 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Cc: 	George
> Subject: 	Re: Tungsten shortage?
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert I. Eachus <eachus mitre.org>
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> Date: Thursday, September 03, 1998 12:20 PM
> Subject: Tungsten shortage?
> 
> Got your attention, didn't I?   :-)
> 
> Regards,   Frederick
> 
> Robert wrote:
> 
> 
> >At 04:20 PM 9/2/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
> >>So much for Incandescent Tungsten as an energy source.
> > 
> >   Please read the story before posting!  The "shortage" if there is one,
> >is due to high US tariffs on Chinese ore.  Osram Sylvania wants the DoD
> to
> >release ore from its stockpile.  The competitors, who buy refined Chinese
> >ore at a much lower tariff are objecting...
> >
> >                                        Robert I. Eachus
> >
> >with Standard_Disclaimer;
> >use  Standard_Disclaimer;
> >function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
> >
> >
> >
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 15:34:34 1998
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-----Original Message-----
From: Scudder, Henry J <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: 'vortex-l eskimo.com' <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Thursday, September 03, 1998 3:38 PM
Subject: RE: Tungsten shortage?

Beats me, Hank. The Albuquerque Journal Web Page carries the latest AP
headlines. So it might be too buried for you to pull up. I usaually check
the message in my Outlook Express outbox to see if it comes up okay before I
hit the Send Button. I didn't think you are interested in reading the
Albuquerque Journal.:-)

However, I use CNN as my  home page, but they usually lag behind AP. Then
again sometimes the AP headlines credit CNN. It's all too complicated for
me, Hank.

Best,   Frederick


Hank Scudder wrote:


>Frederick
> Every time I try to access one of your newsbrteifs, I get the front
>page, and cant find what you are referring too without a lot of searching,
>and often not even then. Whats the secret?
>Hank
>
>> ----------
>> From: Frederick J Sparber[SMTP:fjsparb sprintmail.com]
>> Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 11:21 AM
>> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>> Cc: George
>> Subject: Re: Tungsten shortage?
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Robert I. Eachus <eachus mitre.org>
>> To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
>> Date: Thursday, September 03, 1998 12:20 PM
>> Subject: Tungsten shortage?
>>
>> Got your attention, didn't I?   :-)
>>
>> Regards,   Frederick
>>
>> Robert wrote:
>>
>>
>> >At 04:20 PM 9/2/98 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>> >>So much for Incandescent Tungsten as an energy source.
>> >
>> >   Please read the story before posting!  The "shortage" if there is
one,
>> >is due to high US tariffs on Chinese ore.  Osram Sylvania wants the DoD
>> to
>> >release ore from its stockpile.  The competitors, who buy refined
Chinese
>> >ore at a much lower tariff are objecting...
>> >
>> >                                        Robert I. Eachus
>> >
>> >with Standard_Disclaimer;
>> >use  Standard_Disclaimer;
>> >function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 16:43:26 1998
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re:  Re: More gravity as a source of energy
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>>When you say, "I could show you a means...", I assume you are telling me
>>that you do not have an apparatus, and that you have not seen an apparatus
>>actually in operation, running forever.  Correct me if that is not accurate.
>
>JC - What I meant was that I had designed a mechanism that will, under the
>force of gravity, push a mass sideways instead of downwards, and then, at
>the lowest position in the cycle cause it to pull itself inwards towards the
>center of gravity.  It does exist and it works, but I am still working on
>the precise positioning of it.  Maybe it still won't cause the balance beam
>to rotate?

If it causes absolutely anything to continue, perpetually, then it is a
success.  It doesn't matter how you wind it up to get it started.  All that
matters, is that whatever it does, you never have to wind it up a second
time to get it going again.  If that is so, then you have something I do not
believe you have.

But, as John Steck said, if you think you are close, send over an NDA of
your choosing to cover the device, and then send over your plans for
evaluation.  I have no interest in such a device as I am positive it won't
work.  but, I would be willing to look at it, and if the universe allows a
PM machine, then I will lick my wounds and help you build the thing.

BTW, I am convinced there are ways to derive energy from various nuclear
phenomena not presently known, and I suspect there are ways to derive energy
directly from gravity itself.  So it isn't that I don't have an extremely
open mind.  It is simply that I have studied a wide variety of devices of
the genre you are talking about and have found nothing remotely close to
being viable.  

At least spinning and flipping magnets have some interesting sub atomic
processes going on so that I bite my tongue and remain reserved.  But
pulleys and belts and spinning wheels are all mechanical and IMO, do not
stand even the slightest chance of success.  



>>
>>You say it uses an outside applied force, gravity, and your usage there is
>>semantics.  The device you describe is NOT within the bounds of accepted
>>physics.  So either you don't know what you are talking about, or, one of
>>your two statements is not accurate.  Which is it?
>
>JC - Semantics?  I don't think so.  Perhaps I don't knopw what I am talking
>about, Ross.  I only know what I see and that is what I described above.  It
>depends on gravity to work, because if gravity was not present it would not
>work.  Now if as you say that is not within the bounds of accepted physics
>then so be it.  

To use the force of gravity to drive a weight you raise in order to get the
thing going is one thing.  But, if it runs perpetually after that, then you
are doing something additional that is completely independent of the
gravitational field.  You are doing something to deflect, or alter, the
"nature" of the field or the matter.  

Now I have a good idea about the nature of gravitation, and it is a
filtering of wave energy coming from over head in the distant universe, and
not some silly pulling force eminating from the earth.  So you have no
chance of altering the gravitational field.  What you do stand a chance to
accomplish is to deflect that incident wave energy, or, to alter the degree
that the matter in the components of your device filter it (ie, alter their
gravitational mass to be smaller as the atoms rise, and larger as they fall).

Ergo, the fact that simple steel, wood, etc doesn't stand a chance of doing
that leads me to conclude there is no hope for any device in the genre you
are discussing.

That said, if you think otherwise and know how and can build it, then go for
it.  If you want it reviewed, you have two engineers now who would review
it.  If you want to discuss it, then describe the techniques openly.  

But if you want to just keep it a secret, that is fine too, but then we
don't need to discuss it here.  If you want to have a secret, you don't need
to jump up and down shouting that you have one, rather, just keep quiet.  

So, if you want help, shout.

Ross Tessien
President, Impulse Engineering, Inc.
Mechanical Engineer.


PS;

>JC - OUCH!  Ross I've got right up your nose haven't I?  There is no device
>- yet.  But I do have what I believe is part of the mechanism that Bessler
>used.  You of course do not believe in him, but I do.  

You have no idea how many people I have met who wanted me to build a device
for them they knew would work, but they didn't have the first clue about
mechanics and it was obvious it would not.  And also, I don't believe "in
people" period.  I believe in things I see, and things I understand.  I
doubt things that sound wrong, and I consider probable things I think I
understand.  But, I am open to being proven incorrect.    

I am just extremely confident that no device like you described will ever do
that to me, and I would recomend that you don't waste your money or time
trying.  But the beauty of a free world is that you don't need to take my
advice, and I may be wrong.  So go for it if you think it will work.  But as
for postings on this group, if you are going to discuss the workings of it
fine. We can all figure out what is wrong about your thinking,  or learn
about a new device.  But to babble for the sake of babble, we have all done
for too long.  this is cluttering up my in basket if it is going to go no where.

RT


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 17:10:41 1998
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: SOHO update:
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This is a "final" report of the loss of control of SOHO.  From what I
gather, this does NOT mean that they have given up attempts to recover
control of the spacecraft.  But this is an excellent blow by blow accounting
of how the control was lost.

Basically, control was lost due to controller error on the ground, and not
due to a failure of the space craft itself.  Hind sight being 20/20, they
have deciphered the sequence of errors that over a 5 or so hour period, led
to loss of control.

http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/whatsnew/SOHO_final_report.html

I have received no recent news on the on going attempts to regain control.
However, the investor who has funded the illustration of the book I am
writing, and who is going to fund development of the "CF" technology I want
to construct, has offered to fly me to the SOHO conference in Maine at the
end of this month.  So I should have the latest information at that time, if
there is anything more to tell.

I'll bite my tongue for a few days before suggesting that they have been 
watching aether, aka empty space, spewing out of the sun and flinging matter
out into space in all their wonderful images of CME's etc.  ;-)

Ross Tessien

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 17:44:37 1998
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Sept. 3, 1998

Hey, Jed, thanks for the appreciation.  I know thin metal foils are used
with vacuum chambers and accelerators to allow beams to emerge into the
open air, so they have to withstand 1 atm pressure.  A rather thin foil
could be supported on a C fiber mesh, or Kevlar.  The Be foil is a good
idea.  The Pd could be deposited on the inside, which would be the
cathode inside the electrolyte.  Perhaps the best geometry would be for
the foil to be the bottom of the cell.  It could be securely clamped
into place with a ring gasket, or epoxied on, or merely mounted on a
ring and allowed to simply sit on a ring gasket, allowing the weight of
the electrolyte to hold it in place.   Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 17:45:20 1998
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Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:41:55 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Tungsten shortage?
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Hank -

   >  Frederick
   >  	Every time I try to access one of your
   >  newsbrteifs, I get the front page, and cant find what
   >  you are referring too without a lot of searching, and
   >  often not even then. Whats the secret? Hank

Me too, But I found that once there at the front page, the URL with all the
CGI stuff as Frederick posts it is still in the address bar. Just hit the
return key at that point. The resulting re-requesting of that URl from the
front page location should get the CGI request to find its correct target
and get you to the page you want. Works for me.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 17:59:47 1998
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From: "Robert Calloway" <billc9 prysm.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Caduceus Coil (was Re: Oscilloscopes)
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 19:45:32 -0500
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Hello All, For whatever my opinon is worth, I advise experimenting with
"Pulsed DC"
with caduceus coils. Also staying with the 45 degree crossings on the coil
is a must.  My experiments have been limited to 20 mhz because this old
2120B scope wont go any higher. So, I have experimented with pulsed dc
alot.
My favorite is a 1/2" X  12" long coil  with 19 crossings at 45 degree
angles. I then pluse the coil with 24 volt dc at 60 pulses per min. At this
setting a neodinium magnet will walk up and down the inside core of the
coil. Up your pulse to 360 or
better and it will "float" up and down the coil.  Regards, Robert H.
Calloway
 

----------
> From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
> To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Subject: Re: Caduceus Coil (was Re: Oscilloscopes)
> Date: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 3:10 PM
> 
> Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
> > 
> > Hamdi Ucar wrote:
> > 
> [snip]
> > 
> > What was the type of caduceous coil you used? Did the winding start at
> > end A, go up to end B, turn, and continue back to end A? Or was it two
> > windings, both starting at end A, and terminating at end B? (see
> > attached .GIF) If you used the first setup, you will just have a
> > strangely wound solenoid coil. If you used the second setup, you have a
> > true caduceous coil. (non-inductive)
> > 
> > Forgive the badly rendered GIF file...I'm no artist;)
> > Kyle R. Mcallister
> > 
> 
> In my coil windings are are parallel without spacing like ordibary
windings, not 90 degree, only crossing each other two times per loop.
> 
> Dimensions are 20 mm diameter, 60 mm length, wounded by 0.45mm wire
(25AWG), 60 turns CW + 60 turns CWW windings.
> Windings are not combined at each end, in my setup until now, if you
label separate windings as 1 and 2, and ends as A and B,
> I attach 1A to oscillator output, 2A to ground or to 30 cm free wire (or
leave unconnected) and 1B, 2B left unconnected.
> 
> As the frequency is in range 10-60MHz, capacitive couplings are playing
role, and a complex LC circuit resonate forming nodes along the coil,
typically 9 nodes are present on 30-60MHz range( I have no instrument to
measure the frequency, only I guess)
> 
> Due to parasitic capacitances (in my wounding scheme) it is not possible
to obtain a non inductive coil, specially at RF. Rather I try profit from
this capacitances to obtain some unusual results.
> 
> Regards, 
> hamdi ucar

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Because these people were using the Netscape!

Which show constantly the red traffic light or "STOP" icon (I am sure everybody hate these traffic signs), does the opposite that it was intended,  crashing every time, drives you crazy!

"The families used Carnegie Mellon University’s proprietary software for electronic mail, MacMail II, Netscape Navigator for web browsing, and ClarisWorks Office."

For more info
http://homenet.andrew.cmu.edu/progress/HN.impact.10.htm
http://www.salonmagazine.com/21st/

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 19:18:15 1998
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On 03-Sep-98, Hamdi Ucar wrote:
>Because these people were using the Netscape!

 Speaking of Netscrape, have any of you Intel drives checked out
 the new Opera browser?

      http://www.operasoftware.com

>Which show constantly the red traffic light or "STOP" icon (I am sure
>everybody hate these traffic signs), does the opposite that it was intended, 
>crashing every time, drives you crazy!

>"The families used Carnegie Mellon Universitys proprietary software for
>electronic mail, MacMail II, Netscape Navigator for web browsing, and
>ClarisWorks Office."

>For more info
>http://homenet.andrew.cmu.edu/progress/HN.impact.10.htm
>http://www.salonmagazine.com/21st/

>Regards,

>hamdi ucar


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The 25 Rules of Disinformation  Part 1/2

http://www.largeruniverse.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=2058 

              Posted by larry on Saturday, 29 August 1998, at 11:13 a.m.

Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation 
by H. Michael Sweeney 
copyright (c) 1997 All rights reserved 

Permission to reprint/distribute hereby granted for any non commercial
use provided information
reproduced in its entirety and with author information in tact. For more
Intel/Shadow government
related info, visit the Light vs. Shadow home page: 

Built upon Thirteen Techniques for Truth Suppression by David Martin,
the following may be useful
to the initiate in the world of dealing with truth, lies, and
suppression of truth when serious crimes are
studied in public forums. Where the crime involves a conspiracy, or a
conspiracy to cover up the
crime, there will invariably be a disinformation campaign launched
against those seeking to uncover
and expose the conspiracy. There are specific tactics which disinfo
artists tend to apply, as revealed
here. Also included with this material are seven common traits of the
disinfo artist which may also
prove useful in identifying players and motives. The more a particular
party fits the traits and is guilty
of following the rules, the more likely they are a professional disinfo
artist with a vested motive. 

Understand that when the those seeking resolution of such crimes proceed
in attempting to uncover
truth, they try their best to present factual information constructed as
an argument for a particular
chain of evidence towards a particular solution to the crime. This can
be a largely experimental
process via trial and error, with a theory developed over time to
perfection or defeated by the
process. This is their most vulnerable time, the time when a good
disinfo artist can do the greatest
harm to the process. 

A rational person participating as one interested in the truth will
evaluate that chain of evidence and
conclude either that the links are solid and conclusive, that one or
more links are weak and need
further development before conclusion can be arrived at, or that one or
more links can be broken,
usually invalidating (but not necessarily so, if parallel links already
exist or can be found, or if a
particular link was merely supportive, but not in itself key) the
argument. The game is played by
raising issues which either strengthen or weaken (preferably to the
point of breaking) these links. It is
the job of a disinfo artist to at least make people think the links are
weak or broken when, in truth,
they are not. 

It would seem true in almost every instance, that if one cannot break
the chain of evidence,
revelation of truth has won out. If the chain is broken either a new
link must be forged, or a whole
new chain developed, or the basis is lost, but truth still wins out.
There is no shame in being the
creator or supporter of a failed chain if done with honesty in search of
the truth. This is the rational
approach. While it is understandable that a person can become
emotionally involved with a
particular side of a given issue, it is really unimportant who wins, as
long as truth wins. But the disinfo
artist will seek to emotionalize and chastise any failure (real or false
claims thereof), and will seek to
prevent new links from being forged by a kind of intimidation. 

It is the disinfo artist and those who may pull his strings who stand to
suffer should the crime be
solved, and therefore, who stand to benefit should it be the opposite
outcome. In ANY such case,
they MUST seek to prevent rational and complete examination of any chain
of evidence which
would hang them. Since fact and truth seldom fall on their own, they
must be overcome with lies and
deceit. Those who are professional in the art of lies and deceit, such
as the intelligence community
and the professional criminal (often the same people or at least working
together), tend to apply
fairly well defined and observable tools in this process. However, the
public at large is not well
armed against such weapons, and is often easily led astray by these
time-proven tactics. 

The overall aim is to avoid discussing links in the chain of evidence
which cannot be broken by truth,
but at all times, to use clever deceptions or lies to make the links
seem weaker than they are, or
better still, cause any who are considering the chain to be distracted
in any number of ways,
including the method of questioning the credentials of the presenter.
Please understand that fact is
fact, regardless of the source. Truth is truth, regardless of the
source. This is why criminals are
allowed to testify against other criminals. Where a motive to lie may
truly exist, only actual evidence
that the testimony itself IS a lie renders it completely invalid. Were a
known "liar's" testimony to
stand on its own without supporting fact, it might certainly be of
questionable value, but if the
testimony (argument) is based on verifiable or otherwise demonstrable
facts, it matters not who does
the presenting or what their motives are, or if they have lied in the
past or even if motivated to lie in
this instance -- the facts or links would and should stand or fall on
their own merit and their part in
the matter will merely be supportive. 

Moreover, particularly with respects to public forums such as newspaper
letters to the editor, and
Internet chat and news groups, the disinfo type has a very important
role. In these forums, the
principle topics of discussion are generally attempts by individuals to
cause other persons to become
interested in their own particular problem, position, or idea -- usually
ideas, postulations, or theories
which are in development at the time. People often use such mediums as a
sounding board and in
hopes of pollenization to better form their ideas. Where such ideas are
critical of government or
powerful, vested groups (especially if their criminality is the topic),
the disinfo artist has yet another
role -- the role of nipping it in the bud. They also seek to stage the
concept, the presenter, and any
supporters as less than credible should any possible future
confrontation in more public forums result
due to successes in seeking a final truth. You can often spot the
disinfo types at work here by the
unique application of "higher standards" of discussion than necessarily
warranted. They will demand
that those presenting arguments or concepts back everything up with the
same level of expertise as a
professor, researcher, or investigative writer. Anything less renders
any discussion meaningless and
unworthy in their opinion, and anyone who disagrees is obviously stupid. 

So, as you read here in the NGs the various discussions on various
matters, decide for yourself
when a rational argument is being applied and when disinformation,
psyops (psychological warfare
operations) or trickery is the tool. Accuse those guilty of the later
freely. They (both those
deliberately seeking to lead you astray, and those who are simply
foolish or misguided thinkers)
generally run for cover when thus illuminated, or -- put in other terms,
they put up or shut up (a
perfectly acceptable outcome either way, since truth is the goal). Here
are the twenty-five methods
and six traits, some of which don't apply directly to NG application.
Each contains a simple example
in the form of actual paraphrases form NG comments or commonly known
historical events, and a
proper response. Accusations should not be overused -- reserve for
repeat offenders and those who
use multiple tactics. Responses should avoid falling into emotional
traps or informational sidetracks,
unless it is feared that some observers will be easily dissuaded by the
trickery. Consider quoting the
complete rule rather than simply citing it, as others will not have
reference. Offer to provide a
complete copy of the rule set upon request (see permissions statement at
end): 

Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation 

Note: The first rule and last five (or six, depending on situation)
rules are generally not directly within
the ability of the traditional disinfo artist to apply. These rules are
generally used more directly by
those at the leadership, key players, or planning level of the criminal
conspiracy or conspiracy to
cover up. 

1. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. Regardless of what you
know, don't discuss it --
especially if you are a public figure, news anchor, etc. If it's not
reported, it didn't happen, and you
never have to deal with the issues. 

Example: Media was present in the courtroom when in Hunt vs. Liberty
Lobby when CIA agent
Marita Lorenz "confession" testimony regarding CIA direct participation
in the planning and
assassination of John Kennedy was revealed. All media reported is that
E. Howard Hunt lost his
liable case against Liberty Lobby (Spotlight had reported he was in
Dallas that day and were sued
for the story). See Mark Lane's Plausible Denial for the full
confessional transcript. 

Proper response: There is no possible response unless you are aware of
the material and can make it
public yourself.. In any such attempt, be certain to target any known
silent party as likely complicit in
a cover up. 

2. Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key issues and
instead focus on side issues
which can be used show the topic as being critical of some otherwise
sacrosanct group or theme.
This is also known as the "How dare you!" gambit. 

Example: "How dare you suggest that the Branch Davidians were murdered!
the FBI and BATF are
made up of America's finest and best trained law enforcement, operate
under the strictest of legal
requirements, and are under the finest leadership the President could
want to appoint." 

Proper response: You are avoiding the Waco issue with disinformation
tactics. Your high opinion of
FBI is not founded in fact. All you need do is examine Ruby Ridge and
any number of other
examples, and you will see a pattern that demands attention to charges
against FBI/BATF at Waco.
Why do you refuse to address the issues with disinformation tactics
(rule 2 - become incredulous
and indignant)? 

3. Create rumor mongers. Avoid discussing issues by describing all
charges, regardless of venue or
evidence, as mere rumors and wild accusations. Other derogatory terms
mutually exclusive of truth
may work as well. This method which works especially well with a silent
press, because the only
way the public can learn of the facts are through such "arguable
rumors". If you can associate the
material with the Internet, use this fact to certify it a "wild rumor"
which can have no basis in fact. 

"You can't prove his material was legitimately from French Intelligence.
Pierre Salinger had a chance
to show his 'proof' that flight 800 was brought down by friendly fire,
and he didn't. All he really had
was the same old baseless rumor that's been floating around the Internet
for months." 

Proper response: You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics.
The Internet charge
reported widely is based on a single FBI interview statement to media
and a supportive statement by
a Congressman who has not actually seen Pierre's document. As the FBI is
being accused in
participating in a cover up of this matter and Pierre claims his
material is not Internet sourced, it is
natural that FBI would have reason to paint his material in a negative
light. For you to assume the
FBI to have no bias in the face of Salinger's credentials and unchanged
stance suggests you are
biased. At the best you can say the matter is in question. Further, to
imply that material found on
Internet is worthless is not founded. At best you may say it must be
considered carefully before
accepting it, which will require addressing the actual issues. Why do
you refuse to address these
issues with disinformation tactics (rule 3 - create rumor mongers)? 

4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's
argument which you can
easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look
bad. Either make up an
issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the
opponent/opponent
arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest
charges. Amplify their significance
and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real
and fabricated alike, while
actually avoiding discussion of the real issues. 

Example: When trying to defeat reports by the Times of London that
spy-sat images reveal an object
racing towards and striking flight 800, a straw man is used. "If these
exist, the public has not seen
them." 

Proper response: You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics.
You imply deceit and
deliberately establish an impossible and unwarranted test. It is
perfectly natural that the public has
not seen them, nor will they for some considerable time, if ever. To
produce them would violate
national security with respect to intelligence gathering capabilities
and limitations, and you should
know this. Why do you refuse to address the issues with such
disinformation tactics (rule 4 - use a
straw man)? 

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also
known as the primary attack the
messenger ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that
approach. Associate opponents
with unpopular titles such as "kooks", "right-wing", "liberal",
"left-wing", "terrorists", "conspiracy
buffs", "radicals", "militia", "racists", "religious fanatics", "sexual
deviates", and so forth. This makes
others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and
you avoid dealing with issues. 

Example: "You believe what you read in the Spotlight? The Publisher,
Willis DeCarto, is a
well-known right-wing racist. I guess we know your politics -- does your
Bible have a swastika on
it? That certainly explains why you support this wild-eyed, right-wing
conspiracy theory." 

Proper response: You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics.
Your imply guilt by
association and attack truth on the basis of the messenger. The
Spotlight is well known Populist
media source responsible for releasing facts and stories well before
mainstream media will discuss
the issues through their veil of silence. Why do you refuse to address
the issues by use of such
disinformation tactics (rule 5 - sidetrack opponents with name calling
and ridicule)? 

6. Hit and Run. In any public forum, make a brief attack of your
opponent or the opponent position
and then scamper off before an answer can be fielded, or simply ignore
any answer. This works
extremely well in Internet and letters-to-the-editor environments where
a steady stream of new
identities can be called upon without having to explain criticism
reasoning -- simply make an
accusation or other attack, never discussing issues, and never answering
any subsequent response,
for that would dignify the opponent's viewpoint. 

Example: "This stuff is garbage. Where do you conspiracy lunatics come
up with this crap? I hope
you all get run over by black helicopters." Notice it even has a
farewell sound to it, so it won't seem
curious if the author is never heard from again. 

Proper response: You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics.
Your comments or opinions
fail to offer any meaningful dialog or information, and are worthless
except to pander to
emotionalism, and in fact, reveal you to be emotionally insecure with
these matters. Why do you
refuse to address the issues by use of such disinformation tactics (rule
6 - hit and run)? 

7. Question motives. Twist or amplify any fact which could so taken to
imply that the opponent
operates out of a hidden personal agenda or other bias. This avoids
discussing issues and forces the
accuser on the defensive. 

Example: "With the talk-show circuit and the book deal, it looks like
you can make a pretty good
living spreading lies." 

Proper response: You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics.
Your imply guilt as a means
of attacking the messenger or his credentials, but cowardly fail to
offer any concrete evidence that
this is so. Why do you refuse to address the issues by use of such
disinformation tactics (rule 6 -
question motives)? 

8. Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself with
authority and present your
argument with enough "jargon" and "minutia" to illustrate you are "one
who knows", and simply say it
isn't so without discussing issues or demonstrating concretely why or
citing sources. 

"You obviously know nothing about either the politics or strategic
considerations, much less the
technicals of the SR-71. Incidentally, for those who might care, that
sleek plane is started with a pair
of souped up big-block V-8's (originally, Buick 454 C.I.D. with dual 450
CFM Holly Carbs and a
full-race Isky cams -- for 850 combined BHP   6,500 RPM) using a
dragster-style clutch with
direct-drive shaft. Anyway, I can tell you with confidence that no
Blackbird has ever been flown by
Korean nationals have ever been trained to fly it, and have certainly
never overflown the Republic of
China in a SR or even launched a drone from it that flew over China. I'm
not authorized to discuss if
there have been overflights by American pilots." 

Proper response: You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics.
Your imply your own
authority and expertise but fail to provide credentials, and you also
fail to address issues and cite
sources. Why do you refuse to address the issues by use of such
disinformation tactics (rule 8 -
invoke authority)? 

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered,
avoid discussing issues with
denial they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof,
contain or make a point, have
logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect. 

Example: "Nothing you say makes any sense. Your logic is idiotic. Your
facts nonexistent. Better go
back to the drawing board and try again." 

Proper response: You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics.
Your evade the issues with
your own form of nonsense while others, perhaps more intelligent than
you pretend to be, have no
trouble with the material. Why do you refuse to address the issues by
use of such disinformation
tactics (rule 9 - play dumb)? 

10. Associate opponent charges with old news. A derivative of the straw
man -- usually, in any
large-scale matter of high visibility, someone will make charges early
on which can be or were
already easily dealt with. Where it can be foreseen, have your own side
raise a straw man issue and
have it dealt with early on as part of the initial contingency plans.
Subsequent charges, regardless of
validity or new ground uncovered, can usually them be associated with
the original charge and
dismissed as simply being a rehash without need to address current
issues -- so much the better
where the opponent is or was involved with the original source. 

Example: "Flight 553's crash was pilot error, according to the NTSB
findings. Digging up new
witnesses who say the CIA brought it down at a selected spot and were
waiting for it with 50 agents
won't revive that old dead horse buried by NTSB more than twenty years
ago." 

Proper response: You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics.
Your ignore the issues and
imply they are old charges as if new information is irrelevant. Why do
you refuse to address the
issues by use of such disinformation tactics (rule 10 - associate
charges with old news)? 

11. Establish and rely upon fall-back positions. Using a minor matter or
element of the facts, take the
"high road" and "confess" with candor that some innocent mistake, in
hindsight, was made -- but that
opponents have seized on the opportunity to blow it all out of
proportion and imply greater
criminalities which, "just isn't so." Others can reinforce this on your
behalf, later. Done properly, this
can garner sympathy and respect for "coming clean" and "owning up" to
your mistakes without
addressing more serious issues. 

Example: "Reno admitted in hindsight she should have taken more time to
question the data provided
by subordinates on the deadliness of CS-4 and the likely Davidian
response to its use, but she was
so concerned about the children that she elected, in what she now
believes was a sad and terrible
mistake, to order the tear gas be used." 

Proper response: You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics.
Your evade the true issue
by focusing on a side issue in an attempt to evoke sympathy. Perhaps you
did not know that CIA
Public Relations expert Mark Richards was called in to help Janet Reno
with the Waco aftermath
response? How warm and fuzzy feeling it makes us, so much so that we are
to ignore more
important matters? Why do you refuse to address the issues by use of
such disinformation tactics
(rule 11 - establish and rely upon fall-back positions)? 

12. Enigmas have no solution. Drawing upon the overall umbrella of
events surrounding the crime
and the multitude of players and events, paint the entire affair as too
complex to solve. This causes
those otherwise following the matter to begin to loose interest more
quickly without having to
address the actual issues. 

Example: "I don't see how you can claim Vince Foster was murdered since
you can't prove a
motive. Before you could do that, you would have to completely solve the
whole controversy over
everything that went on in the White House and Arkansas, and even then,
you would have to know
a heck of a lot more about what went on within the NSA, the Travel
Office, and on, and on, and on.
It's hopeless. Give it up." 

Proper response: You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics.
Your completely evade
issues and attempt others from daring to attempt it by making it a much
bigger mountain than
necessary. Why do you refuse to address the issues by use of such
disinformation tactics (rule 12 -
enigmas have no solution)? 

13. Alice in Wonderland Logic. Avoid discussion of the issues by
reasoning backwards with an
apparent deductive logic in a way that forbears any actual material
fact. 

Example: "The news media operates in a fiercely competitive market where
stories are gold. This
means they dig, dig, dig for the story -- often doing a better job than
law enforcement. If there was
any evidence that BATF had prior knowledge of the Oklahoma City bombing,
they would surely
have uncovered it and reported it. They haven't reported it, so there
can't have been any prior
knowledge. Put up or shut up." 

Proper response: You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics.
Your backwards logic does
not work here. Has media reported CIA killed Kennedy when they knew it?
No, despite their
presence at a courtroom testimony "confession" by CIA operative Marita
Lornez in a liable trial
between E. Howard Hunt and Liberty Lobby, they only told us the trial
verdict. Why do you refuse
to address the issues by use of such disinformation tactics (rule 13 -
Alice in Wonderland logic)? 

14. Demand complete solutions. Avoid the issues by requiring opponents
to solve the crime at hand
completely, a ploy which works best items qualifying for rule 10. 

Example: "Since you know so much, if James Earl Ray is innocent as you
claim, who really killed
Martin Luther King, how was it planned and executed, how did they frame
Ray and fool the FBI,
and why?" 

Proper response: You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics.
It is not necessary to
completely resolve any full matter in order to examine any relative
attached issue. Why do you refuse
to address the issues by use of such disinformation tactics (rule 14 -
demand complete solutions)? 

15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions. This requires creative
thinking unless the crime was planned
with contingency conclusions in place. 

Example: The best definitive example of avoiding issues by this
technique is, perhaps, Arlan
Specter's Magic Bullet from the Warren Report. 

Proper response: You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics.
Your imaginative twisting of
facts rivals that of Arlan Specter's Magic Bullet in the Warren Report.
We all know why the magic
bullet was invented. Why do you refuse to address the issues by use of
such disinformation tactics
(rule 15 - invoke authority)? 

16. Vanish evidence and witnesses. If it does not exist, it is not fact,
and you won't have to address
the issue. 

Example: "You can't say Paisley is still alive... that his death was
faked and the list of CIA agents
found on his boat deliberately placed there to support a purge at CIA.
You have no proof. Why
can't you accept the Police reports?" True, since the dental records and
autopsy report showing his
body was two inches two long and the teeth weren't his were lost right
after his wife demanded
inquiry, and since his body was cremated before she could view it -- all
that remains are the Police
Reports. Handy. 

Proper response: There is no suitable response to actual vanished
materials or persons, unless you
can shed light on the matter, particularly if you can tie the event to a
cover up or other criminality.
However, with respect to dialog where it is used against the discussion,
you can respond... You are
avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics. The best you can say is
that the matter is in contention
based on highly suspicious matters which themselves tend to support the
primary allegation. Why do
you refuse to address the remaining issues by use of such disinformation
tactics (rule 16 - vanish
evidence and witnesses)? 

17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other
ploys listed here, find a way to
side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in
hopes of turning attention to a
new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions
who can "argue" with you
over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid
discussing more key issues. 

Example: "There were no CIA drugs and was no drug money laundering
through Mena, Arkansas,
and certainly, there was no Bill Clinton knowledge of it because it
simply didn't happen. This is
merely an attempt by his opponents to put Clinton off balance and at a
disadvantage in the election
because Dole is such a weak candidate with nothing to offer that they
are desperate to come up with
something to swing the polls. Dole simply has no real platform."
Response. "You idiot! Dole has the
clearest vision of what's wrong with Government since McGovern. Clinton
is only interested in
raping the economy, the environment, and every woman he can get his
hands on..." One naturally
feels compelled, regardless of party of choice, to jump in defensively
on that one... 

Proper response: You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics.
Your evade discussion of
the issues by attempting to sidetrack us with an emotional response -- a
trap which we will not fall
into willingly. If you truly believe such political rhetoric, please
drop out of this discussion, as it is not
germane unless you can provide concrete facts to support your
contentions of relevance. Why do
you refuse to address the issues by use of such disinformation tactics
(rule 17- change the subject)? 

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't do
anything else, chide and taunt
your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to
make them look foolish
and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less
coherent. Not only will you
avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their
emotional response addresses the
issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how
"sensitive they are to criticism". 

Example: "You are such an idiot to think that possible -- or are you
such a paranoid conspiracy buff
that you think the 'gubment' is cooking your pea-brained skull with
microwaves, which is the only
justification you might have for dreaming up this drivel." After a
drawing an emotional response:
"Ohhh... I do seemed to have touched a sensitive nerve. Tsk, tsk. What's
the matter? The truth too
hot for you to handle? Perhaps you should stop relying on the Psychic
Friends Network and see a
psychiatrist for some real professional help..." 

Proper response: "You are avoiding the issue with disinformation
tactics. You attempt to draw me
into emotional response without discussion of the issues. If you have
something useful to contribute
which defeats my argument, let's here it -- preferably without snide and
unwarranted personal
attacks, if you can manage to avoid sinking so low. Your useless
rhetoric serves no purpose here if
that is all you can manage. Why do you refuse to address the issues by
use of such disinformation
tactics (rule 18 - emotionalize, antagonize, and goad opponents)?

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19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a
variant of the "play dumb"
rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in
public forums, claim the
material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent
to come by (it may exist,
but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be
safely destroyed or withheld,
such as a murder weapon). In order to completely avoid discussing issues
may require you to
categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources,
deny that witnesses are
acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other
authorities have any meaning
or relevance. 

Example: "All he's done is to quote the liberal media and a bunch of
witnesses who aren't qualified.
Where's his proof? Show me wreckage from flight 800 that shows a missile
hit it!" 

Proper response: You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics.
You presume for us not to
accept Don Phillips, reporter for the Washington Post, Al Baker, Craig
Gordon or Liam Pleven,
reporters for Newsday, Matthew Purdy or Matthew L. Wald, Don Van Natta
Jr., reporters for the
New York Times, or Pat Milton, wire reporter for the Associated Press --
as being able to tell us
anything useful about the facts in this matter. Neither would you allow
us to accept Robert E.
Francis, Vice Chairman of the NTSB, Joseph Cantamessa Jr., Special Agent
In Charge of the New
York Office of the F.B.I., Dr. Charles Wetli, Suffolk County Medical
Examiner, the Pathologist
examining the bodies, nor unnamed Navy divers, crash investigators, or
other cited officials,
including Boeing Aircraft representatives a part of the crash
investigative team -- as a qualified party
in this matter, and thus, dismisses this material out of hand. Good
logic, -- about as good as saying
150 eye witnesses aren't qualified. Only YOUR are qualified to tell us
what to believe? Witnesses be
damned? Radar tracks be damned? Satellite tracks be damned? Reporters be
damned?
Photographs be damned? Government statements be damned? Is there a
pattern here?. Why do you
refuse to address the issues by use of such disinformation tactics (rule
19 - ignore proof presented,
demand impossible proofs)? 

20. False evidence. Whenever possible, introduce new facts or clues
designed and manufactured to
conflict with opponent presentations as useful tools to neutralize
sensitive issues or impede
resolution. This works best when the crime was designed with
contingencies for the purpose, and the
facts cannot be easily separated from the fabrications. 

Example: Jack Ruby warned the Warren Commission that the white Russian
separatists, the
Solidarists, were involved in the assassination. This was a handy
"confession", since Jack and Earl
were both on the same team in terms of the cover up, and since it is now
known that Jack worked
directly with CIA in the assassination. 

Proper response: This one can be difficult to respond to unless you see
it clearly, such as in the
following example, where more is known today than earlier in time... You
are avoiding the issue with
disinformation tactics. Your information is known to have designed to
side track this issue. As
revealed by CIA operative Marita Lorenz under oath offered in court in
E. Howard Hunt vs. Liberty
Lobby, CIA operatives met with Jack Ruby in Dallas the night before the
assassination of JFK to
distribute guns and money. Clearly, Ruby was a coconspirator whose
"Solidarist confession" was
meant to sidetrack any serious investigation of the murder. Why do you
refuse to address the issues
by use of such disinformation tactics (rule 20 - false evidence)? 

21. Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor, or other empowered
investigative body. Subvert the
(process) to your benefit and effectively neutralize all sensitive
issues without open discussion. Once
convened, the evidence and testimony are required to be secret when
properly handled. For
instance, if you own the prosecuting attorney, it can insure a Grand
Jury hears no useful evidence
and that the evidence is sealed an unavailable to subsequent
investigators. Once a favorable verdict
(usually, this technique is applied to find the guilty innocent, but it
can also be used to obtain charges
when seeking to frame a victim) is achieved, the matter can be
considered officially closed. 

Example: According to one OK bombing Grand Juror who violated the law to
speak the truth,
jurors were, contrary to law, denied the power of subpoena of witness of
their choosing, denied the
power of asking witnesses questions of their choosing, and relegated to
hearing only evidence
prosecution wished them to hear, evidence which clearly seemed
fraudulent and intended to paint
conclusions other than facts actually suggested. 

Proper response: There is usually no adequate response to this tactic
except to complain loudly at
any sign of its application, particularly with respect to any possible
cover up. 

22. Manufacture a new truth. Create your own expert(s), group(s),
author(s), leader(s) or influence
existing ones willing to forge new ground via scientific, investigative,
or social research or testimony
which concludes favorably. In this way, if you must actually address
issues, you can do so
authoritatively. 

Example: The False Memory Syndrome Foundation and American Family
Foundation and
American and Canadian Psychiatric Associations fall into this category,
as their founding members
and/or leadership include key persons associated with CIA Mind Control
research. Not so curious,
then, that (in a perhaps oversimplified explanation here) these
organizations focus on, by means of
their own "research findings", that there is no such thing as Mind
Control. 

Proper response: Unless you are in a position to be well versed in the
topic and know of the
background and relationships involved in the opponent organization, you
are well equipped to fight
this tactic. 

23. Create bigger distractions. If the above does not seem to be working
to distract from sensitive
issues, or to prevent unwanted media coverage of unstoppable events such
as trials, create bigger
news stories (or treat them as such) to distract the multitudes. 

Example: To distract the public over the progress of a WTC bombing trial
that seems to be
uncovering nasty ties to the intelligence community, have an endless
discussion of skaters whacking
other skaters on the knee. To distract the public over the progress of
the Waco trials that have the
potential to reveal government sponsored murder, have an O.J. summer. To
distract the public over
an ever disintegrating McVeigh trial situation and the danger of
exposing government involvements,
come up with something else (any day now) to talk about -- keeping in
the sports theme, how about
sports fans shooting referees and players during a game and the whole
gun control thing? 

Proper response: The best you can do is attempt to keep public debate
and interest in the true issues
alive and point out that the "news flap" or other evasive tactic serves
the interests of your opponents.

24. Silence critics. If the above methods do not prevail, consider
removing opponents from
circulation by some definitive solution so that the need to address
issues is removed entirely. This can
be by their death, arrest and detention, blackmail or destruction of
their character by release of
blackmail information, or merely by proper intimidation with blackmail
or other threats. 

Example: As experienced by certain proponents of friendly fire theories
with respect to flight 800 --
send in FBI agents to intimidate and threaten that if they persisted
further they would be subject to
charges of aiding and abetting Iranian terrorists, of failing to
register as a foreign agents, or any other
trumped up charges. If this doesn't work, you can always plant drugs and
bust them. 

Proper response: You have three defensive alternatives if you think
yourself potential victim of this
ploy. One is to stand and fight regardless. Another is to create for
yourself an insurance policy which
will point to your opponents in the event of any unpleasantness, a
matter which requires superior
intelligence information on your opponents and great care in execution
to avoid dangerous pitfalls
(see The Professional Paranoid by this author for suggestions on how
this might be done). The last
alternative is to cave in or run (same thing). 

25. Vanish. If you are a key holder of secrets or otherwise overly
illuminated and you think the heat
is getting too hot, to avoid the issues, vacate the kitchen. 

Example: Do a Robert Vesco and retire to the Caribbean. If you don't,
somebody in your
organization may choose to vanish you the way of Vince Foster or Ron
Brown. 

Proper response: You will likely not have a means to attack this method,
except to focus on the
vanishing in hopes of uncovering it was by foul play as part of a
deliberate cover up. 

Note: There are other ways to attack truth, but these listed are the
most common, and others are
likely derivatives of these. In the end, you can usually spot the
professional disinfo players by one or
more of seven distinct traits: 

1) They never actually discuss issues head on or provide constructive
input, generally avoiding
citation of references or credentials. Rather, they merely imply this,
that, and the other. Virtually
everything about their presentation implies their authority and expert
knowledge in the matter without
any further justification for credibility. 

2) They tend to pick and choose their opponents carefully, either
applying the hit-and-run approach
against mere commentators supportive of opponents, or focusing heavier
attacks on key opponents
who are known to directly address issues. Should a commentator become
argumentative with any
success, the focus will shift to include the commentator as well. 

3) They tend to surface suddenly and somewhat coincidentally with a
controversial topic with no
clear prior record of participation in general discussion in the
particular public arena. They likewise
tend to vanish once the topic is no longer of general concern. They were
likely directed or elected to
be there for a reason, and vanish with the reason. 

4) They tend to operate in self-congratulatory and complementary packs
or teams. Of course, this
can happen naturally in any public forum, but there will likely be an
ongoing pattern of frequent
exchanges of this sort where professionals are involved. Sometimes one
of the players will infiltrate
the opponent camp to become a source for straw man or other tactics
designed to dilute opponent
presentation strength. 

5) Their disdain for "conspiracy theorists" and, usually, for those who
in any way believe JFK was
not killed by LHO. Ask yourself why, if they hold such disdain for
conspiracy theorists, do they
focus on defending a single topic discussed in a NG focusing on
conspiracies? One might think they
would either be trying to make fools of everyone on every topic, or
simply ignore the group they
hold in such disdain. Or, one might more rightly conclude they have an
ulterior motive for their
actions in going out of their way to focus as they do. 

6) An odd kind of "artificial" emotionalism and an unusually thick skin
-- an ability to persevere and
persist even in the face of overwhelming criticism and unacceptance.
This likely stems from
intelligence community training that, no matter how condemning the
evidence, deny everything, and
never become emotionally involved or reactive. The net result for a
disinfo artist is that emotions can
seem artificial. Most people, if responding in anger, for instance, will
express their animosity
throughout their presentation. But disinfo types usually have trouble
maintaining the "image" and are
hot and cold with respect to emotions they pretend to have and the more
calm or normal
communications which are not emotional. It's just a job, and they often
seem unable to "act their role
in type" as well in a communications medium as they might be able in a
real face-to-face
conversation/confrontation. You might have outright rage and indignation
one moment, ho-hum the
next, and more anger later -- an emotional yo-yo. With respect to being
thick-skinned, no amount of
criticism will deter them from doing their job, and they will generally
continue their old disinfo
patterns without any adjustments to criticisms of how obvious it is that
they play that game -- where
a more rational individual who truly cares what others think might seek
to improve their
communications style, substance, and so forth. 

7) There is also a tendacy to make mistakes which betray their true
self/motives. This may stem from
not really knowing their topic, or it may be somewhat 'freudian', so to
speak, in that perhaps they
really root for the side of truth deep within. I have noted that often,
they will simply cite contradictory
information which neutralizes itself and the author. For instance, one
such player claimed to be a
Navy pilot, but blamed his poor communicating skills (spelling, grammar,
incoherent style) on having
only a grade-school education. I'm not aware of too many Navy pilots who
don't have a college
degree. Another claimed no knowledge of a particular topic/situation but
later claimed first-hand
knowledge of it. 

I close with the first paragraph of the introduction to my book, Fatal
Rebirth: 

Truth cannot live on a diet of secrets, withering within entangled lies.
Freedom cannot live on a diet
of lies, surrendering to the veil of oppression. The human spirit cannot
live on a diet of oppression,
becoming subservient in the end to the will of evil. God, as truth
incarnate, will not long let stand a
world devoted to such evil. Therefore, let us have the truth and freedom
our spirits require... or let us
die seeking these things, for without them, we shall surely and justly
perish in an evil world.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Sep  3 22:43:50 1998
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Subject: Re:  Re: More gravity as a source of energy
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 06:43:00 +0100
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Ross wrote - 

>To use the force of gravity to drive a weight you raise in order to get the
>thing going is one thing.  But, if it runs perpetually after that, then you
>are doing something additional that is completely independent of the
>gravitational field.  You are doing something to deflect, or alter, the
>"nature" of the field or the matter.  

No that is wrong.  It cannot be independent of the gravitational field
because, to repeat myself, it won't work if you remove the gravity effect
(take into space).  Deflecting the gravitational field or altering it is
completely unnecessary and I'm sure that a guy who lived in 1712 wouldn't
have known what you were talking about either.

>You have no idea how many people I have met who wanted me to build a device
>for them they knew would work, but they didn't have the first clue about
>mechanics and it was obvious it would not. 

Me too!

>I am just extremely confident that no device like you described will ever do
>that to me.

OK Ross, point taken.  There are however others who hold a different
viewpoint, and may wish to continue this discussion.

John

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  4 00:27:26 1998
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Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 08:24:18 +0100 (BST)
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: Re: Polaron -vs- Phonon
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Sorry. Some people are so serious.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  4 02:17:11 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: heat reuse, promising approach
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Vo,

Look, I was only teasing, taking the mickey out of Fred's thread.  I'm
intrigued, I want to know what makes you think that striaghtforward
conductivity can give rise to ou.  Please, eculidate, give mechanisms
explain your intuition a bit more, trojan horses 'n all.  How do you tap
zero point?  I know of only one way. 

I'll be working on ferromagnetics near the Curie point this weekend. 
Trying to figure a circuit that let's me bias the ferromagnetic material
into the mu >> 1 region without doing electrical work.  I want the heat to
supply the field energy so that I can get the field to collapse and
generate electricity.  It's like this:-

You have two phases:  ordered (ferromagnetic) and disordered
(paramagnetic). Above Curie temp, paramagnetic (mu = 1.something).  Apply
a magnetic field and the material becomes ferromagnetic (mu >> 1).  So
wind an inductor but one must not do magnetic/electrical work, one has to
some how trick it with an imposed H field so that it supplies the
induction B in the coil.  I may have a way. 

By the way, there is stacks of energy in heat.  Very compact devices could
be made.  A litre of water is what, 100mm^3, drop its temp by 1K per
second and generate > 4KW. 

It can be done. Realistic mechanisms, realistic materials. This is 
engineering.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  4 03:23:20 1998
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Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 13:16:13 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
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Very interesting papers are being released by Origin Organization,
http://www.the-origin.org/. Papers are also in the archive of the xxx.lanl.gov.

For papers goto http://www.the-origin.org/indxpprs.htm

Notes:
 Papers are in form of GIF files, any browser can read them.
 Last paper is released today and  may take the most interest of the vortexians.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  4 03:24:57 1998
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Vo,

By the way, there is no perpetual motion, only perpetuating motion in that
the device taps into a limitless source of energy.  Yes, the machine wears
out, but with the energy is generated, you build another. 

BTW, don't bother we a certain person's telling it like it is, you
inventors know nothing about business.  He quite happily supports the
leeches of the tax system to spend money on speculative research whereas
he wouldn't give an inventor time even for theories.  No doubt he thinks
it okay that worldwide, those who defined the modern age don't receive the
value of what they invented but he is quite happy that pop stars,
sportspeople (kicking a god damn ball for christ sake) and the feckless
receive.  To add insult to injury, we are geeks. 

New energy will kick them into touch.
Remi.

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Subject: magnon    For Remi's Research.  :-)
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Britannica CD    Help

magnon,

small quantity of energy corresponding to a specific decrease in magnetic
strength that travels as a unit through a magnetic substance.

In a magnetic substance, such as iron, each atom acts as a small individual
magnet. These atomic magnets tend to point in the same direction, so that
their magnetic fields reinforce each other. When the direction of one atomic
magnet is reversed, the total magnetic strength of the group is decreased. A
definite amount of energy is required to reverse such a magnet. This energy,
involving the decrease in magnetic strength of the group of atoms,
constitutes a magnon.

According to the laws of quantum mechanics, the reversal of a single atomic
magnet is equivalent to a partial reversal of all the atomic magnets in a
group. This partial reversal spreads through the solid as a wave of discrete
energy transferal. This wave is called a spin wave, because the magnetism of
each atom is produced by the spin of unpaired electrons in its structure.
Thus, a magnon is a quantized spin wave.

As the temperature of a magnetic substance is increased, its magnetic
strength decreases, corresponding to the presence of a large number of
magnons.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright (c) 1995 Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc. All Rights Reserved

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Related Propaedia Topics:

Magnetic phenomena in metals: diamagnetism, paramagnetism, ferromagnetism,
antiferromagnetism

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  4 05:27:08 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: Re: magnon For Remi's Research. :-)
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Two types of people in this world:  the simple and logical; the disordered
bamboozler. 

I do not see the relavancy of your magnon.  Quantum mechanics offer
excellent opportunities for people who do not even understand the basic
operation of its toolset (partial diff eqns., matrix algebra, Hilbert
spaces, quantised co-ords)to bamboozle with concepts always seemingly to
end in 'on', 'tron' etc. 

Simple fact, the energy stored in an inductor is 1/2BH.  If once can
impose an H field on the specimin without doing electrical work, the
ferromagnetic substance just beyond it's Curie point will oblige you by
supplying the induction field B. 

Yes, the mechanism of ferromagnetism is qm in nature, being based on
exchange coupling and ultimately the exclusion principle.  It serves as a
very common-or-garden (no exoitic materials) of cohering random motion. 

It can be done.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  4 05:52:46 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: Re: magnon For Remi's Research. :-)
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Frederick,

Keep it simple and logical - bottom up to you.

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-----Original Message-----
From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Friday, September 04, 1998 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: magnon For Remi's Research. :-)

LOL!   Way to go, Remi. Keep dropping those high-powered phrases and you
will be in Med School in no time.   :-)

Fred

Remi wrote:


>Two types of people in this world:  the simple and logical; the disordered
>bamboozler.
>
>I do not see the relavancy of your magnon.  Quantum mechanics offer
>excellent opportunities for people who do not even understand the basic
>operation of its toolset (partial diff eqns., matrix algebra, Hilbert
>spaces, quantised co-ords)to bamboozle with concepts always seemingly to
>end in 'on', 'tron' etc.
>
>Simple fact, the energy stored in an inductor is 1/2BH.  If once can
>impose an H field on the specimin without doing electrical work, the
>ferromagnetic substance just beyond it's Curie point will oblige you by
>supplying the induction field B.
>
>Yes, the mechanism of ferromagnetism is qm in nature, being based on
>exchange coupling and ultimately the exclusion principle.  It serves as a
>very common-or-garden (no exoitic materials) of cohering random motion.
>
>It can be done.
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  4 06:08:42 1998
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From: Remi Cornwall <ad502 iesun9>
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Subject: Re: magnon For Remi's Research. :-)
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Let's drop it Frederick.  You are a mediocre little prat who won't achieve
or has achieved anything.  We can see from your surfing of your encarta,
eb, mgh cd roms that you do nothing more than juggle information and
display superficial knowledge.  You know that.  You are typical. 

You wouldn't know a research path if it hit you between your crossed eyes. 
You flit from one idea to another like the dilatant you are without being
able to master a single concept.  Logic evades you. 

Why do I pick on you?  Your just typical sh.t wasting bandwidth and
sapping credibility.  Just what have you contributed, what can you say
you've done to assist the solutions of problems?

No more idle prattle with you.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  4 06:59:08 1998
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Remi wrote:

(Snip all of the Platitudes) :-)

ROFL!  Gee Remi, I've never had the pleasure of
meeting anyone as nice as you, before.  :-)

I Rest my case, Bill.

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  4 07:24:55 1998
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Subject: attitude
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Who cares about being nice? People start out nice and end up knarled on 
exposure to the mass. Though, still have a heart of gold but don't be a 
goose.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  4 07:48:33 1998
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Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com )
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Subject: Re: More gravity as a source of energy
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John Collins wrote:
> Ross wrote -
> >To use the force of gravity to drive a weight you raise in order to get the
> >thing going is one thing.  But, if it runs perpetually after that, then you
> >are doing something additional that is completely independent of the
> >gravitational field.  You are doing something to deflect, or alter, the
> >"nature" of the field or the matter.
> 
> No that is wrong.  It cannot be independent of the gravitational field
> because, to repeat myself, it won't work if you remove the gravity effect
> (take into space).  Deflecting the gravitational field or altering it is
> completely unnecessary and I'm sure that a guy who lived in 1712 wouldn't
> have known what you were talking about either.

John-

Gravity is a force that operates in only one direction.  Over simplified, it is
an expression of entropy; higher energy state of a mass (potential energy at x
elevation) to a lower energy state of said mass (potential energy at x-1
elevation).  Preventing this transition, you get "weight".  Utilizing this
transition, you get "work".

To go in the opposite direction you need to:
1)  Apply additional work to increase the available PE to do more work   (x-1)
+1 
2)  Periodically negate the weight to restore the available PE to do work  (x-1)
= x 
3)  ???

If you claim #1, where does the additional work to reset PE come from?
If you claim #2, how does this device periodically zero out the entropy bias?
If you claim #3, please explain....

I do not deny the possibility of such a device, but I share Ross's skepticism.

Why?  If this mechanism performs as proposed, where does all the excess PE
generated go that isn't used to raise 70lb blocks?  Seeing as this supposedly is
a 100% mechanical system, wouldn't any excess energy generated/manipulated cause
the main flywheel to perpetually accelerate?  Where is the PE bleed off to
prevent this mechanism from eventually flying apart?  You can't have it both
ways, controlled equalibrium AND biased equalibrium at the same time.....

IMHPO, conditions #1 or #2 still must be satisfied, but I would be very happy to
be wrong.... 8^)  Shall we dance around the bushes more? or can we discuss the
actual mechanism now?


-- 

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    John E. Steck
      Senior Mechanical Engineer
      Rapid Tooling Applications
      Motorola, Libertyville, IL
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  4 08:41:28 1998
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At 04:51 AM 9/2/98 -0600, Frederick wrote:
>
>
>An Olde Proverb: "There is no such thing as a Stupid Question, only Stupid
>Answers".     :-)
>
>Hope this helps.       Regards,    Frederick
>

  

    Autant des hommes, autant d'avis
   
     Best wishes.

      Mitchell Swartz



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Sep  4 09:04:41 1998
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Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:47:43 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Thin wall CF cell
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To: Vortex

Rich Murray writes:

     I know thin metal foils are used with vacuum chambers and accelerators to
     allow beams to emerge into the open air, so they have to withstand 1 atm
     pressure.

I do not think they are in the micron (0.001 mm) range. They would pop. You
cannot seal a vacuum chamber hole with a piece of aluminum foil or plastic
wrap. I am not sure how thick plastic wrap is, but it is in the 10s of microns
range I believe. Around 0.5 microns you see iridescent interference, as with
soap bubbles or thin film mother-of-pearl. I think that is the right scale.


     Perhaps the best geometry would be for the foil to be the bottom of the
     cell.

That is the normal configuration.


     It could be . . . allowed to simply sit on a ring gasket, allowing the
     weight of the electrolyte to hold it in place.

I do not think this configuration would work. Try it with a plastic cup and
some aluminum foil or plastic wrap. It will leak. I predict that just about
any combination of gaskets, seals, glue and whatnot you come up with will
leak, and ruin the camera mounted underneath the cell. Perhaps you could
orient the cylinder sideways.

This project is interesting, but based on what I know of similar studies, it
may be much more difficult than you imagine, and the results will probably not
be very clear cut. In the first message you suggested you could skip the
calorimetry and look for hot spots alone. I think you will find hot spots
whether there is excess heat or not. An electrochemical cell is a dynamic
environment, with constant small physical and chemical changes. Salts build up
on the surface of an electrode; power fluctuates; the electrode corrodes;
bubbles build up and isolate areas, cutting off power momentarily; the anode
to cathode geometry shifts around . . . Lots of small events happen. These
changes are apparent to the naked eye. You can see the bubbles forming in
different patterns, you can see tarnishing and discoloration originate from
the lead wire attached to the cathode. You are looking for only 0.6 watts
excess in a 15 watt background, on a small, hot, noisy, ever-changing surface.
I do not think you can detect that level of heat without sophisticated
calorimetry. With a Be diaphragm cathode, you are looking for x-rays, which
have no significant background. Ultraviolet and infrared heat are always
present during electrolysis. If the 4% increase was localized in one or two
spots a few millimeters wide you would see them, but I think it is more likely
spread out in hundreds or perhaps millions of spots just below the surface of
the cathode. The heat might be blurred before it reaches the top layer of
atoms in the cathode.

Storms and others have often said that the active spots in a cathode are
probably scattered around in small localized areas. We do not know how small
these areas might be. The evidence we have for the scale  is from the gold
Ohmori cathodes, and the transmutations found in Pd and Ni cathodes with SIMS.
The Au explosions are so small they can barely be seen with a light
microscope. To measure the scale and separation between them you need an SEM.
I have no idea how big the Pd and Ni transmuted areas are. The gold cathode
may not be representative material, because the reaction was confined to rough
areas, scraped with glass. I do not think thin film Pd reactions will be so
localized. You are trying to find out whether there are spots and if so, how
big are they. Your tool may be on the wrong scale.

Storms tried to locate nuclear-active areas with a tiny luggin capillary,
which he moved across the surface in a raster pattern search. The last I
heard, he failed. He thought the resolution of the capillary tip was not fine
enough. I do not recall how he moved it. Perhaps piezoelectric devices such as
the ones they use on a scanning tunneling microscope would work. Anyway, my
point is that if he could not see anything with that arrangement, the active
spots are probably too small to be seen with a camera. He knows the surface as
a whole has a marked change in activity, which can be measured on average with
the capillary. This is like saying that on average, for the entire surface,
the heat has increased 4%, which you measure calorimetry. (Standard
calorimetry always measures averages for the whole system, never individual
parts. It cannot distinguish between heat originating at the anode, the
cathode, or the joule heater. If it can, it isn't working right.) The problem
is the background heat. If the cathode produced 600 mW of CF heat after death
with no 15 watt background, anyone could spot the spots.

- Jed

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From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Final: Re: More gravity as a source of energy
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>John Collins wrote:
>> Ross wrote -
>> >To use the force of gravity to drive a weight you raise in order to get the
>> >thing going is one thing.  But, if it runs perpetually after that, then you
>> >are doing something additional that is completely independent of the
>> >gravitational field.  You are doing something to deflect, or alter, the
>> >"nature" of the field or the matter.
>> 
>> No that is wrong.  It cannot be independent of the gravitational field
>> because, to repeat myself, it won't work if you remove the gravity effect
>> (take into space).  Deflecting the gravitational field or altering it is
>> completely unnecessary and I'm sure that a guy who lived in 1712 wouldn't
>> have known what you were talking about either.
>
>John-
>
>Gravity is a force that operates in only one direction.  Over simplified, it is
>an expression of entropy; higher energy state of a mass (potential energy at x
>elevation) to a lower energy state of said mass (potential energy at x-1
>elevation).  Preventing this transition, you get "weight".  Utilizing this
>transition, you get "work".
>
>To go in the opposite direction you need to:
>1)  Apply additional work to increase the available PE to do more work   (x-1)
>+1 
>2)  Periodically negate the weight to restore the available PE to do work
(x-1)
>= x 
>3)  ???
>
>If you claim #1, where does the additional work to reset PE come from?
>If you claim #2, how does this device periodically zero out the entropy bias?
>If you claim #3, please explain....
>
>I do not deny the possibility of such a device, but I share Ross's skepticism.
>
>Why?  If this mechanism performs as proposed, where does all the excess PE
>generated go that isn't used to raise 70lb blocks?  Seeing as this
supposedly is
>a 100% mechanical system, wouldn't any excess energy generated/manipulated
cause
>the main flywheel to perpetually accelerate?  Where is the PE bleed off to
>prevent this mechanism from eventually flying apart?  You can't have it both
>ways, controlled equalibrium AND biased equalibrium at the same time.....
>
>IMHPO, conditions #1 or #2 still must be satisfied, but I would be very
happy to
>be wrong.... 8^)  Shall we dance around the bushes more? or can we discuss the
>actual mechanism now?

Absolutely correct John (Steck) I am in complete accord and will state it
yet another way.

But to John Collins, let me say this.  You are writing to probably the most
open forum with a technical background you could hope to find.  Many on this
group would purchase a working machine from you if you had one.  And many of
us would analyze and show you why your ideas (or the original inventors)
will not work, or what to try if there were any remote chance.  

The fact that you are not bringing designs forward to analyze means that you
are behaving in exactly the identical manner as did your predicessors.  And
so you to, may try to make it work, claim to be really close, and go to your
grave with the complete confidence of a fidele, thus perpetuating the myth.
If you think the ideas are so wonderful, why not just give them to humanity,
assuming you don't hvae the money to develop this technology.  Any way, I am
in complete accord with Steck who shows you why the thing almost certainly
doesn't work despite your confidence.  He is trying to explain to you the
nature of "work" and "energy" and "gravity".  I was trying to do the same,
but you completely missed the point I was trying to make, and you thought I
was wrong which I was not.

The problem is, it sounds to me like you don't have even the basic training
enough to understand what John said and we know you didn't understand what I
said because you told me above that I was wrong.  John understood exactly
what I was saying and so he wrote out the identical statements in different
words.  You are not recognizing that we are both trying to explain something
to you that you are not understanding.

Now, as for any reports of this thing accelerating the flywheel:

If you reduce the friction of a flywheel to zero, then the amount of work
(presumably from the falling weights due to the gravitational PE John
described), needed to keep the flywheel spinning "for weeks" is exactly
ZERO.  You only need to use up some of the energy in order to accelerate the
rotation of the fly wheel.  

It sounds to me, like this guy way back when, figured out that by reducing
the friction in the journals, the thing would spin longer and longer and
longer, up to the point that he, and others, believed that he had really
accomplished something dramatic, meaning, that he thought he had built a
PMM, or that he was close to it.  And I have no doubt that he could set up a
demonstration where he lifted some other weights, even very heavy ones,
heavier than the weights driving the thing.  But that still is not producing
***NET*** WORK and ergo, net energy.  
This is my last post on this particular device unless some definite plans or
designs are discussed.  


Ross Tessien