From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  1 09:11:51 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: interesting example
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I wrote that even without the cold war, integrated circuits would soon have
been developed, perhaps more slowly. Mike Carrell responded:

	By decades, perhaps. There was a computer industry with vacuum
	tubes -- very, very small.

No, it would not have taken decades. In 1955, Chris Tinsley's future
colleagues in the U.K. and several companies in the U.S. were hard at work
on solid state computers. Furthermore, even though the computer industry
was "very, very small" it was very, VERY profitable. Also, as I said, the
telephone company switching applications alone guaranteed a huge market for
integrated circuits.


	Proximity fuses were made by RCA in Camden during the Korean
	war. They used miniature vacuum tubes since no transistor had
	the power/bandwidth for the job at the time. . . .

After 1951, AT&T made solid-state proximity fuses for mortars, according to
Riordan and Hoddeson, pp. 187 - 190. They were N - P - N germanium
crystals, which consumed very little power. Wallace, of AT&T, used them to
make the world's first wireless microphone in 1951. He said, "If a suitable
treadmill and generator could be devised, a flea could easily supply the
power required to operate one transistor by doing an amount of work
equivalent to making one good-sized jump per minute."


	The investment in "cheap" ICs is measured in tens of thousands
	of man-years, and the capital cost of a modern plant exceeds $1
	billion.

That is true, and it is an important point. And if you add in the cost of
learning how to make the factory, it would be tens of billions. (But of
course that was paid for out of the profits from selling earlier devices.)
Furthermore, you can say the same for most other artifacts of our
civilization, even humble thinks like graphite pencils and wheat flour. The
R&D that brought us flour was spread out over thousands of years. We
inherit the benefits for free.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  1 10:30:48 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Scott,

Would your portable calorimeter work with a cell like Vince Cockeram's?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  1 15:21:19 1999
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
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Subject: Re: William A. Barker's Remediation Sphere and Solar Neutrinos.
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:16:33 -0700
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To: Vortex

Barker's Patents: US 4,961,880 Oct 1990, and
US 5,076,971, Claim the impossible, however if the Solar Neutrinos (about
4E10/cm^2/sec insolation) contain some vestige of charge wrt regular charge,
the Field (Negative)
around the outside of the high voltage sphere
might do something funny to the neutrinos that will increase the alpha
emitter decay rate.

I was working on the Neutrino Space Drive calculations using humungus
accelerator tube electrostatic lenses, when this Pregnant Idea struck.  :-)

Regards,  Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  1 15:24:21 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re:  Have calorimeter, will travel
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At 13:28 2/1/99 EST, Tstolper aol.com wrote:
>Scott,
>
>Would your portable calorimeter work with a cell like Vince Cockeram's?

Almost certainly.  We might have to improvise a little to get it encased
properly in a heat exchanger but that's nothing new.  Then there's a
possible problem with the high input voltage...I might have to devise a
voltage divider in order to connect safely to my power analyzer.  I would
certainly want to use the power analyzer because, as I recall, Vince's
rather irregular input power was one of the major uncertainties in his own
measurements.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  1 17:23:40 1999
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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In a message dated 2/1/99 3:23:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, little eden.com
writes:

<< Would your portable calorimeter work with a cell like Vince Cockeram's?
  >>
Scott et al,

 For un-uninnitiated, what is Vince Cockeram's cell? 

Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  1 22:02:20 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re:  Have calorimeter, will travel
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At 5:22 PM 2/1/99, Scott Little wrote:
>At 13:28 2/1/99 EST, Tstolper aol.com wrote:
>>Scott,
>>
>>Would your portable calorimeter work with a cell like Vince Cockeram's?
>
>Almost certainly.  We might have to improvise a little to get it encased
>properly in a heat exchanger but that's nothing new.  Then there's a
>possible problem with the high input voltage...I might have to devise a
>voltage divider in order to connect safely to my power analyzer.  I would
>certainly want to use the power analyzer because, as I recall, Vince's
>rather irregular input power was one of the major uncertainties in his own
>measurements.
[snip]

Since your gadget is so versatile with regard to size of the device under
test, you possibly could include the power supply inside the insulation and
just measure the 120 V supply for input power.

BTW, you did a great job on that setup Scott.  Nice web age too.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  2 04:00:12 1999
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Message-Id: <TFSJNUAZ scigen.co.uk>
From: Duncan Purvis <dpurvis scigen.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:56:36 +0000
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Vortex generation within a tube?
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Hi all

I am trying to find a design for a tube insert which will give a vortex within a tube, on the otherside of the insert from the direction of flow.

--------------------------------------------------
[\     /\    /
--->Flow    > \   /Vo\rt/ex
[  \ /    \/
-----------insert---------------------------------------

I would rather not introduce a change in flow direction as in a vortex tube, vortex generator.

Anyone know of a simple design I could build.

Thanks

Duncan
------------------------------------------------------------
Scientific Generics Limited  Tel: +44 1223 875200
Harston Mill                 Fax: +44 1223 875201
Harston
Cambridge
CB2 5NH
United Kingdom               http://www.generics.co.uk
------------------------------------------------------------


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  2 06:18:50 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re:  Have calorimeter, will travel
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At 21:08 2/1/99 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:

>Since your gadget is so versatile with regard to size of the device under
>test, you possibly could include the power supply inside the insulation and
>just measure the 120 V supply for input power.

This is a good option to consider in all cases where the input power is
erratic, high-frequency, high-voltage or anything else that makes it hard
to measure.  For one thing, there are wonderfully accurate watt transducers
available (e.g. Ohio Semitronics) for 120 VAC 60 Hz power that are MUCH
cheaper than a wideband power analyzer.

Two possible drawbacks:

1. You dilute the expected signal by including the primary power supply
inside the calorimeter enclosure.

2. There is a general trend towards lower heat recovery percentages and
increased ambient sensitivity as the size of the enclosure increases
(probably  because I usually don't bother to keep the ratio of insulation
thickness to insulation area constant).  I wouldn't want to try enclosing a
whole table full of apparatus, for example.

>BTW, you did a great job on that setup Scott.  Nice web age too.

Hey, thanks!



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  2 06:37:41 1999
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At 20:15 2/1/99 EST, BriggsRO aol.com wrote:

> For un-uninnitiated, what is Vince Cockeram's cell? 

It's Vince's unique version of the BlackLight Power experiment that we did
(see Experiments and Reports...bottom of the list...on our web site).
Vince has a quartz tube, some metallic K inside, hydrogen gas, and I think
he's establishing a glow discharge in there hoping to see hydrogen atoms
shrink into hydrinos and release copious energy per BLP's claims.

He reported apparent excess heat on this forum a while back but there were
substantial uncertainties in his measurements, e.g. single-point
comparative thermometry was the only "calorimetry" he employed...I believe.

Vince, if you're still here, jump in and correct me....<g>



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  2 07:36:03 1999
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Electrooptic Effects,Solar Neutrinos and Barker's Sphere
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:29:46 -0700
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To:Vortex

Barker may have developed a way to use the charged hollow sphere as a form
of lens to affect the disposition of the 4E10/cm^2/sec Solar Neutrinos, and
thus increase their reaction cross section with radioisotopes:

Neutrino + Tc99 (212,000 yrs) ---> Ru99* (3 minutes)etc.

The field gradients attained external to the charged sphere can also be
attained at the cathode of the F&P and CETI cells, in gas discharges, in
sonoluminescence experiments, and the Potatov-Griggs devices,and possibly in
Scott's Travelin' Calorimeter.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  2 08:54:24 1999
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Electrostatic (Van de Graaf) Generators & Spheres for Remediation Experiments
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To; Vortex

Sargent-Welch carries table-top Van de Graaf generators and auxiliary
insulated spheres with
up to 400,000 volts potentials, ranging in price from $150.00 to about
$450.00.

The spheres are about 30 cm diameter.

The charging belts deliver up to 50 microamps.

DO NOT USE THESE FOR CHARGING CAPACITORS!

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  2 11:20:09 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Have calorimeter, will travel
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>At 20:15 2/1/99 EST, BriggsRO aol.com wrote:
>
>> For un-uninnitiated, what is Vince Cockeram's cell?
>
>It's Vince's unique version of the BlackLight Power experiment that we did
>(see Experiments and Reports...bottom of the list...on our web site).
>Vince has a quartz tube, some metallic K inside, hydrogen gas, and I think
>he's establishing a glow discharge in there hoping to see hydrogen atoms
>shrink into hydrinos and release copious energy per BLP's claims.
>
>He reported apparent excess heat on this forum a while back but there were
>substantial uncertainties in his measurements, e.g. single-point
>comparative thermometry was the only "calorimetry" he employed...I believe.
>
>Vince, if you're still here, jump in and correct me....<g>


By my posted calculation of radiant heat from his experiment, Vince's
results were way over unity on that basis alone.  Could be I had a mistake.
As for input data, I used the quartz surface temperature and assumed it
applied to the entire hot zone on his tube, which is probably a
conservative assumption, becuase the thermocouple was toward the end of the
tube.  Could be I had the wrong tube dimension, thus surface area.  I hope
I remember this correctly.  No one posted any correction.  I hope I
remember this correctly.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: The Lightning Page - The Van De Graaff Generator (http://www.wvlightning.com/gr
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:59:05 -0700
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Build your own Van De Graaff?

http://www.wvlightning.com/graaff.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  2 13:05:13 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re:  Have calorimeter, will travel
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Here are the radiation calcs I posted for Vince. Notice that my incedulity
forces me to adjust the temperature downward in an effort to come back
Kansas.  8^)

Under the thread name:"Re: Tell all! Re: H2 Glow" at 1:49 AM, 6/28/98 I wrote:

At 6:53 PM 6/27/98, VCockeram aol.com wrote:
[snip]
>
>Horace, assume T=600 C Tube 1=1 inch gap, tube 2=2 inch gap.
>How do you figure radiation loss in ambient air at 20 C ?   Thanks.\


Using Stefan-Boltman law:

    P = (5.67x10^-8 W/m^2-K^4)(0.8)*area*(T^4)

where P is power out in watts, T is surface temperature in deg. K., area is
in m^2.  Note that I used (0.8) as emissivity for quartz, as that is
emissivity for glass at your temperatures, and I can't locate emissivity of
quartz.  I don't have the actual number, but the real emissivity will vary
with dirt, etc. anyway.  I don't recall the diameter of your tube, but to
give an example will assume 1/4 inch, or 1/8" radius.  That gives a radius
of 0.003175 m, and length of 1" = 0.0254 m, or an area of 2*pi*r*h =
3.14159*2*(0.003175 m)*(0.0254 m) = 5.07X10^-4 m^2. The temperature, 600 C,
is 873.15 K, so:

   P = (5.67x10^-8 w/m^2-K^4)(0.8)(0.0254 m)(873.15 K)^4
   P = 670 watts   (way too high)

The 2" long area would radiate twice as much (1340 w), if at the same
temperature.  There is the problem with this approach.  You have no way to
really check the surface temperature.  A small change in surface
temperature results in a large difference in radiated watts.  This is
complicated by the fact that the surface temperature is not uniform.

Suppose the surface temperature is 287 K.  Then the radiation is

   P = (5.67x10^-8 w/m^2-K^4)(0.8)(0.0254 m)(560 K)^4
   P = 113 watts   (closer)

These numbers look very high, so possibly you have a smaller diameter tube?
Any help correcting numbers appreciated, as always.  8^)

The real answer is to do calorimetry.  I would suggest you consider
isperibolic calorimetry, as it should be much easier to pull off. ...
[snip detailed method for suggested for isoperibolic calorimetry and cop
out "too tired to check the numbers" caveat]

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  2 15:24:46 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: The importance of grain size in CF cathodes
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I am reading a paper by De Ninno et al. about the importance of grain size
in bulk cathodes and thin film cathodes. It is "Material science studies
aimed at improving the reproducibility of the heat excess experiments,"
Proc. ICCF7, p. 103. Here is part of the Abstract:

	We have studied the influence of the microstructure of Pd
	samples on the features of the Hydrogen(Deuterium) loading
	process in order to improve the reproducibility of excess heat
	experiments.

		We have found that the Pd grain size is a significative
	parameter affecting in a strong way both the loading kinetics
	and the maximum concentration. A careful check of the
	microstructure appears thus necessary in order to obtain high
	loading ratios. We make the hypothesis that this can be related
	to the role of the grain size both on the density of short
	circuit paths for fast diffusion and on the mechanical
	properties of the material, which influence the metal ability in
	relaxing the stress field generated at the sample surface by the
	solute concentration gradient . . .

They conclude that small grain sizes, ~50 microns, produce optimum loading,
because of the way the metal changes and distributes stress as it absorbs
hydrogen and goes through phase changes. Small grains suffer less damage
from stress relief. Variations in grain shape and larger grain sizes can
have a dramatic effect. If I understand this correctly, grain size can
change as hydride is formed:

	Fig. 4 [SEM photo] shows that the grain size after the
	electrolysis is enhanced, by a factor ranging from 1.5 to 2,
	relative to the same sample before electrolysis. This shows that
	the sequence of metallurgical steps leading to the
	transformation from Pd to high concentration PdH(D) is very
	complicated and requires further investigation. Moreover the
	combination of all the effects we have reported in this short
	paper can easily explain the lack of reproducibility which is
	characteristic of this kind of experiments aiming to introduce a
	large amount of H or D onto the Pd lattice.

If conventional Pd-CF ever becomes practical, it will be thanks to this
kind of patient slogging research in material science. This demonstrates
that in order to solve the cold fusion problem you must invent a whole
series of solutions to other problems (sub-problems) along the way.

The Riordan and Hoddeson book about the development of the transistor
describes the opposite problem with grain size in the early development of
the transistor. With cold fusion you want many small crystals; with
transistors you want one big one. In 1948, Gordon Teal thought that single
crystal germanium would be needed to make predictable, effective
transistors. Teal thought he could develop a process to fabricate single
crystals of greater purity than any existing samples. Shockley did not
realize how important this was, and at first he paid no attention to Teal's
work. Teal had to pursue the project at night with "bootlegged" equipment.
He had to unplug his apparatus everyday, roll it into a closet, and work on
something else. (This is how many cold fusion experiments are performed
today.) In 1949 he gave a sample of his germanium crystals to a chemist in
the newly formed semiconductor research group. The chemist tested the
electron and hole mobility of the crystal and found that performance was 20
to 100 times better than that of the conventional, polycrystalline samples.
"As word of this success percolated through the semiconductor group,
Shockley finally began to sit up and take notice of Teal's work. By late
1949 he had to admit he been wrong. . . . Soon Bell Labs would have an
entire group devoted to growing single germanium crystals." A few years
later Bell developed "zone refining" which produced materials "99.99999999
percent pure," which was 1000 times purer than any previous sample of
material. This breakthrough alone would have been sensational, even without
transistors. It was only one of many extraordinary breakthroughs needed
before transistors could be made practical. In that sense, the transistor
was not "one" breakthrough; it was the culmination of a whole series of
related and directed R&D efforts, which were triggered by one breakthrough.
You could not have a transistor without ultra-pure single crystal
germanium, but no one thought to make ultra-pure single crystal germanium
until after the initial breakthrough produced a crude, unreliable prototype
in 1948. No one thought to make small grain palladium thin film until years
after the initial breakthrough in cold fusion. It has taken much longer
because funding and research facilities are so limited. Perhaps it is
because we do not have talented, driven people like Teal and Shockley
working on cold fusion. (I cannot judge, although De Ninno, McKubre, and
many others seem pretty smart to me . . .)

I think that in order for cold fusion to succeed we will have to have
entire groups devoted to each individual material sciences problem as these
problems evolve, just as Bell Labs set up groups as each materials problem
appeared after 1948. The Bell R&D expanded again and again, as the problem
areas became apparent. (They did not know in advance that they would need
single crystals.) We may need a series of sensational breakthroughs like
zone refining. This illustrates why it will take so much money to develop
cold fusion, and why it will never be possible for an untrained person to
replicate on his own, without sophisticated instruments. Without an SEM,
how would you know what the grain size of your cathode is? I mean replicate
from scratch; one CF has been perfected and effective cathodes are
marketed, anyone will be able by one and demonstrate the CF effect. That is
not really the same as "replicating" unless you want to say I am
replicating the transistor effect every time I use a pocket calculator.

This story illustrates why we may need a central group of geniuses like
Shockley and Bardeen who will keep their eye on the ball, and remember what
the whole project is supposed to be about. Otherwise, we run the risk that
researchers will go off on a tangent, and become so wrapped up in one
material problem they lose track of the larger purpose. I think this
happened in the NEDO program, where at least one group concentrated on
making large grain palladium. Robert Huggins heard their presentation at
ICCF7 and said to me, that is a splendid effort but it is just the opposite
of what they should be doing! I did not have a chance to ask him why.
Apparently he was aware of these problems with plastic deformation and
loading. The Japanese researchers at NEDO were new to the field, and most
of them were rotated out of the program at six month intervals, whereas
Huggins has been dealing with hydride material problems for decades. If we
cannot find geniuses to run the program, we must at least find experienced
people like Huggins. Another problem at NEDO was surface contamination,
especially oxides I believe it was. Edmund Storms identified this problem
during a short visit. He asked whether they had SEM photos and surface
analyses. They did indeed. They had superb data, carefully filed away,
which they had overlooked.  The problem was lack of knowledge and
experience, not lack of data. They did not know what kind of contamination
was a problem or how to look for it, so they did not know how to use their
own carefully gathered data.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  2 15:47:27 1999
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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:54:35 -0900
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re:  Have calorimeter, will travel
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It looks like I made an error.  Taking another shot at this:

At 6:53 PM 6/27/98, VCockeram aol.com wrote:
[snip]
>
>Horace, assume T=600 C Tube 1=1 inch gap, tube 2=2 inch gap.
>How do you figure radiation loss in ambient air at 20 C ?   Thanks.\


Using the Stefan-Boltzman law:

    P = (5.67x10^-8 W/m^2-K^4)(0.8)*area*(T^4)

where P is power out in watts, T is surface temperature in deg. K., area is
in m^2.  Note that I used (0.8) as emissivity for quartz, as that is
emissivity for glass at your temperatures, and I can't locate emissivity of
quartz.  I don't have the actual number, but the real emissivity will vary
with dirt, etc. anyway.  I don't recall the diameter of your tube, but to
give an example will assume 1/4 inch, or 1/8" radius.  That gives a radius
of 0.003175 m, and length of 1" = 0.0254 m, or an area of 2*pi*r*h =
3.14159*2*(0.003175 m)*(0.0254 m) = 5.07X10^-4 m^2. The temperature, 600 C,
is 873.15 K, so:

   P = (5.67x10^-8 w/m^2-K^4)(0.8)(5.07X10^-4 m^2)(873.15 K)^4
   P = 13.36 watts   (more like it)

The 2" long area would radiate twice as much (26.7 W), if at the same
temperature.  There is the problem with this approach.  You have no way to
really check the surface temperature.

So, this is definitely a number in Kansas, not in Oz.  The power input was
bout 90 W if I recall correctly, so only 1/3 of it radiates away.  The
other could easily be convection heat lost to the air.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  2 18:09:29 1999
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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:58:23 -0500 (EST)
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	Dear Folks .,

	Is someone going to replicate the work of Barker?

					J
	


On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

> To; Vortex
> 
> Sargent-Welch carries table-top Van de Graaf generators and auxiliary
> insulated spheres with
> up to 400,000 volts potentials, ranging in price from $150.00 to about
> $450.00.
> 
> The spheres are about 30 cm diameter.
> 
> The charging belts deliver up to 50 microamps.
> 
> DO NOT USE THESE FOR CHARGING CAPACITORS!
> 
> Regards,   Frederick
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  2 20:37:15 1999
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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
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Subject: Re: Electrostatic (Van de Graaf) Generators & Spheres for Remediation Experiments
In-Reply-To: <001e01be4ecb$cf9c30c0$29441d26 default> from Frederick J Sparber at "Feb 2, 99 09:47:13 am"
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> Sargent-Welch carries table-top Van de Graaf generators and auxiliary
> insulated spheres with
> up to 400,000 volts potentials, ranging in price from $150.00 to about
> $450.00.
> 
> The spheres are about 30 cm diameter.
> Regards,   Frederick

By the way, spun metal spheres are nice, but you can build functional
spheres from just about anything including those pre-formed styrofoam
balls they sell at craft shops -- just paste some aluminum foil on
it.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  2 23:55:07 1999
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From: UNIR2B1NM aol.com
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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 02:51:00 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 99-01-29 15:34:41 EST, Henry Jl. Scudder  wrote:

>You should read the end of Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged". You are advocating a
>similar community I think.

...Except that Rand *thought* she was an atheist.  Her god was simply ill-
defined, like Nietche's.  Have you/friends an interest here?  Tx. 

--Russ

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  3 06:25:26 1999
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From: "Bill Wallace`" <btech surfsouth.com>
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Does anyone remember the XP - 500 - I believe it was a concept car with a
free piston engine developed by GM - whatever happened to it and why was the
program shut down?

>Agreed--they're *both* deleterious, and to more than engines.  Combustion
of
>both hydrocarbons and biomass by-products pollutes; and with gasoline
>currently $.70 hereabouts, I view its ultimate unsustainability as the
>fundamental reason for seeking energy alternativesis.  I'm focussing on
>hydrogen; pricing solar panels, electrolyzers, etc. (Of course, I'd welcome
an
>unambiguous set of plans for a hydroxy fuel cell!)
>
>--Russ
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  3 11:35:55 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Farnsworth Fusor effort at EarthTech
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Point: I'm a complete FF novice...I haven't even read F's patents...I just
got fired up by Tom Ligon's article in Analog...and we happen to have most
of the necessary equipment lying around (vacuum system, high voltage
supply, etc.) 

I've whipped up the crudest pair of grids and put them in a 2.75" Conflat
cross. It's relatively tiny...outer grid is 30mm dia...inner grid is
10mm dia. Today I ran it in D2 gas and got a nice-looking glow discharge
but the voltage is really low...about 800 volts. Picture available
at: 

http://www.eden.com/~little/fusor/glow.jpg 

The long stainless tube above the chamber is a He-3 neutron counter. 

If I apply more drive to the high voltage supply, the current goes up but
the voltage stays around 800 volts...and the inner grid gets red hot. 

I tried lowering the pressure and raising the voltage together to nurse the
discharge into a low-pressure high-voltage regime. That seems to
work for a while. I got up to about 5,000 volts but still no sign of
neutrons. 
(Ligon says you need to get up to 10,000+ volts)  At that point, either the
pressure falls too low and the discharge goes out...or the inner grid gets
so hot that the solder holding it to the Cu lead wire melts! 

Any suggestions? 


Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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Awhile back, somebody was asking about the above.  I don't recall what the
answer was (if any), but here's a website about it:

   Laser action in very white paint
   http://www.wins.uva.nl/research/scm/adlag/articles/dgain.htm

Seriously cool stuff, if you ask me!   :)


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  3 13:10:20 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Farnsworth Fusor effort at EarthTech
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Scott Little wrote:
> 
> Point: I'm a complete FF novice...I haven't even read F's patents...I just
> got fired up by Tom Ligon's article in Analog...and we happen to have most
> of the necessary equipment lying around (vacuum system, high voltage
> supply, etc.)

Yes, Scott - the Farnsworth stuff is fascinating!  Have you checked out

	http://www.ticnet.com/bertpool/philo/883.htm

yet?  You can click on the 3,386,883 patent and get it right away.
Suggest you get and read the patent - it seems loaded with tons of
insight and background info on the device.  Good luck!

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  3 13:20:40 1999
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Lightning Page - The Van De Graaff Generator 
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On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

> Build your own Van De Graaff?
> http://www.wvlightning.com/graaff.html

And closer to home: 

   SCIENCE HOBBYIST: VandeGraaff Generator Page
   http://www.amasci.com/emotor/vdg.html


Especially see the SCIENCE FIRST price list at:

   http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/emotor/scifirst.html

It's a small, family-run science education company who can use the
business.  The founder, Frank Lee, is a major VDG enthusiast from way
back.  (His articles in C.L. Stong's THE AMATEUR SCIENTIST column blazed
the way for VDG hobbyist experimentation.)   They sell complete kits,
parts, and a 400KV SPUN ALUMIUM OBLATE SPHERE for $80.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  3 15:57:00 1999
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: T.T. Brown, Barker's Remediation Sphere and The Neutrino Gas
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:50:06 -0700
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To: Vortex

One might speculate that Neutrinos are repelled
by a Negatively Charged Plate or Sphere and also forced into "Neutrino
Oscillations" that can transmute Radioisotopes and such.

With some 4E14/cm^2/second Neutrinos arriving at the Earth from the Sun,
with a rest mass of
0.5 ev or less these can rattle around in the atmosphere with speed-of-light
velocities with very little interaction with the atmospheric gases, but may
have just enough negative charge
to interact with the Negatively charged spheres or plates.

Since they can pass (diffuse) through matter with little or no interaction
with it,this would explain why the charged plates show the force in a
vacuum. This opens up some interesting possibilities for Space
Propulsion,too.

If the speculation that the neutrino and antineutrino have a charge C*V = a
Constant 1.6E-19 coulombs (phase) y = cos x,as opposed to regular leptons
with a charge C*V = 1.6E-19
Coulombs = y = cos x, or vice-versa, there can be enough interaction at
certain times:

x = Deg or Time   y = cos x   y = sin x

     0              1.0         0.00
     15             0.966       0.259
     30             0.866       0.500
     45             0.707       0.707
     60             0.500       0.866
     75             0.259       0.966
     90             0.000       1.000
     105           -0.259       0.966
     120           -0.500       0.866
     135           -0.707       0.707
     150           -0.866       0.500
     165           -0.966       0.259
     180           -1.000       0.000
and so on for interaction between the opposite charges for the neutrinos or
leptons.

Also note that the "Fair Weather Field" starts
out at about 120 volts/meter and decreases with altitude and undergoes a
diurnal variation,but
ending up about 300,000 volts positive wrt the
Earth's surface.

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  3 17:48:03 1999
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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:36:49 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Gary Vesperman <vman skylink.net>
cc: Undisclosed.Recipients skylink.skylink.net, Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: E-mail to Congress on scientific bribery in the FDA
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	See note... a lot of  cuts, below....

On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Gary Vesperman wrote:

> (I just went through the exercise of condensing my earlier e-mail on
> aspartame
> poisoning, etc. for a Congressional e-mail. Thought I might save you
> folks some work. Gary)




> 
> Clearly, the FDA is.......


	CUT------


> 
> Aspartame is a deadly poison sold as NutraSweet and Equal. Aspartame is
> causing an epidemic of multiple sclerosis and systemic lupus. When the
> temperature of aspartame exceeds 86 degrees F, the wood alcohol in aspartame
> converts to formaldehyde and then to formic acid, which in turn causes
> metabolic acidosis. (Formic acid is the poison found in the sting of fire
> ants.
--------------	FLAG------



 Formaldehyde is in the same drug group as cyanide and arsenic.)

	????

	Better get your facts straight....  Arsenic is an element and NOT 
in a 'drug group' ....

	Where do you get this stuff from?

	It is OK to raise an issue... it is NOT OK to be wrong in your 
facts.... .   Being wrong in your fact-base does not help your point... 
it hurts it!





> Aspartame also can cause fibromyalgia symptoms, spasms, shooting pains,
> numbness in your legs, cramps, vertigo, dizziness, headaches, tinnitus,
> joint pain, depression, anxiety attacks, slurred speech, blurred vision,
> memory loss, birth defects, and coma
> in diabetic patients.



> Gary Vesperman
> vman skylink.net
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb  3 19:43:09 1999
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According to Dr. Dean Edell, the e-mail forwarded to us is a hoax. Here's
Edell's story from
http://www.healthcentral.com/news/newsfulltext.cfm?ID=9072. Edell's web site
(healthcentral.com) is an excellent source of up-to-date medical information.



                    January 29, 1999

             Debunking Internet health alarms

              WASHINGTON (AP)--An e-mail campaign attacking
              an artificial sweetener was spreading fear fast:
              "Could I have been misdiagnosed? Will eliminating
              the aspartame in my diet eliminate the MS
              symptoms?" a panicked patient asked the Multiple
              Sclerosis Foundation.

              Absolutely not, the MS Foundation replied, furious
              that whoever wrote the e-mail not only frightened
              vulnerable patients but falsely used the group's
              name as part of the campaign.

              "We've been completely inundated with calls about
              this," said the MS Foundation's Cliff Roer. "It was
              very alarming."

              Welcome to the latest health scare on the Internet,
              where e-mail or "consumer alerts" can suddenly
              spark panic by blaring about "DEADLY POISONS."

              "I call them toxic terrorists," said Jeff Stier of the
              American Council on Science and Health. He
              investigated after his New York City group got calls
              from frightened Internet users last week.

              Consumer scares are nothing new, but the Internet
              lets rumors spread faster - and archives them
              forever, he said. "It's so easy to play on people's
              fears."

              The scare du jour is over claims that aspartame,
              sold under such brand names as NutraSweet,
              causes MS or another disease, lupus.

              For the record, the Food and Drug Administration
              says that is false. MS and lupus have been around
              a lot longer than aspartame has, and repeated
              scientific studies have found no connection
              between the sweetener and such symptoms. An MS
              Foundation neurologist also investigated and calls
              the allegations "rabidly inaccurate."

              But it is not the only scare.

              Last fall, a "Shampoo Alert" claimed an ingredient
              that helps the suds form in almost every shampoo is
              really an "engine degreaser" that causes cancer.
              Today, Internet chat rooms still show people asking
              if they should toss their shampoo. In fact, the
              ingredient might irritate your eyes or your skin, but
              cancer experts agree there is no sign it is
              carcinogenic.

              "This is something we're going to see a lot more of,"
              cautioned Dr. Randolph Wykoff of the FDA, which
              received more than 100 questions about the
              shampoo scare and dozens so far about aspartame.


              The Internet is full of important, even lifesaving,
              medical information, Wykoff stressed. The quandary
              is one of consumer savvy: How do you filter out the
              exaggerations, misinterpretations or falsehoods?

              For people searching for information on the
              Internet, it is less of a problem: Just use Web sites
              operated by reputable groups such as the National
              Institutes of Health or medical journals, and be
              wary of cure-all claims.

              The bigger question is what to believe when an
              alarming e-mail shows up unsolicited - but with just
              enough science to sound credible, and then
              snowballs into frightened discussions on Internet
              bulletin boards.

Take aspartame, which long has been controversial. Some people do say they
are sensitive to it. But the FDA insists that 20 years of research has not
found evidence of serious side effects - except in some people with the
rare genetic disease PKU or phenylketonuria, who                 cannot
properly process an aspartame component called phenylalinine.
 

              But how is a consumer to sort out such claims?

              Call your doctor, check science books in libraries or on
science-based Web sites, or call reputable consumer groups.

              Remember, "if there's a breakthrough, they're not going to read
it in a secret message on the Internet," says Dr. John Renner of the
National Council for Reliable Health Information.






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  4 01:38:33 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Dan York <danyork lyghtforce.com>
Subject: Re: Aspartame
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990203193527.00909690 mail.ap.net>
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 <1e1d01be4f44$0b916140$33ba31cf gary>
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There are definitely two sides to the debate about the safety of aspartame.
It is not all just a bunch of groundless hype. You can get part of the
other side of the story at: 
http://medicinegarden.com/Library/Aspartame.html

Dan

At 07:35 PM 2/3/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>According to Dr. Dean Edell, the e-mail forwarded to us is a hoax. Here's
>Edell's story from
>http://www.healthcentral.com/news/newsfulltext.cfm?ID=9072. Edell's web site
>(healthcentral.com) is an excellent source of up-to-date medical information.
>
>
>
>                    January 29, 1999
>
>             Debunking Internet health alarms
>
>              WASHINGTON (AP)--An e-mail campaign attacking
>              an artificial sweetener was spreading fear fast:
>              "Could I have been misdiagnosed? Will eliminating
>              the aspartame in my diet eliminate the MS
>              symptoms?" a panicked patient asked the Multiple
>              Sclerosis Foundation.
>
>              Absolutely not, the MS Foundation replied, furious
>              that whoever wrote the e-mail not only frightened
>              vulnerable patients but falsely used the group's
>              name as part of the campaign.
>
>              "We've been completely inundated with calls about
>              this," said the MS Foundation's Cliff Roer. "It was
>              very alarming."
>
>              Welcome to the latest health scare on the Internet,
>              where e-mail or "consumer alerts" can suddenly
>              spark panic by blaring about "DEADLY POISONS."
>
>              "I call them toxic terrorists," said Jeff Stier of the
>              American Council on Science and Health. He
>              investigated after his New York City group got calls
>              from frightened Internet users last week.
>
>              Consumer scares are nothing new, but the Internet
>              lets rumors spread faster - and archives them
>              forever, he said. "It's so easy to play on people's
>              fears."
>
>              The scare du jour is over claims that aspartame,
>              sold under such brand names as NutraSweet,
>              causes MS or another disease, lupus.
>
>              For the record, the Food and Drug Administration
>              says that is false. MS and lupus have been around
>              a lot longer than aspartame has, and repeated
>              scientific studies have found no connection
>              between the sweetener and such symptoms. An MS
>              Foundation neurologist also investigated and calls
>              the allegations "rabidly inaccurate."
>
>              But it is not the only scare.
>
>              Last fall, a "Shampoo Alert" claimed an ingredient
>              that helps the suds form in almost every shampoo is
>              really an "engine degreaser" that causes cancer.
>              Today, Internet chat rooms still show people asking
>              if they should toss their shampoo. In fact, the
>              ingredient might irritate your eyes or your skin, but
>              cancer experts agree there is no sign it is
>              carcinogenic.
>
>              "This is something we're going to see a lot more of,"
>              cautioned Dr. Randolph Wykoff of the FDA, which
>              received more than 100 questions about the
>              shampoo scare and dozens so far about aspartame.
>
>
>              The Internet is full of important, even lifesaving,
>              medical information, Wykoff stressed. The quandary
>              is one of consumer savvy: How do you filter out the
>              exaggerations, misinterpretations or falsehoods?
>
>              For people searching for information on the
>              Internet, it is less of a problem: Just use Web sites
>              operated by reputable groups such as the National
>              Institutes of Health or medical journals, and be
>              wary of cure-all claims.
>
>              The bigger question is what to believe when an
>              alarming e-mail shows up unsolicited - but with just
>              enough science to sound credible, and then
>              snowballs into frightened discussions on Internet
>              bulletin boards.
>
>Take aspartame, which long has been controversial. Some people do say they
>are sensitive to it. But the FDA insists that 20 years of research has not
>found evidence of serious side effects - except in some people with the
>rare genetic disease PKU or phenylketonuria, who                 cannot
>properly process an aspartame component called phenylalinine.
> 
>
>              But how is a consumer to sort out such claims?
>
>              Call your doctor, check science books in libraries or on
>science-based Web sites, or call reputable consumer groups.
>
>              Remember, "if there's a breakthrough, they're not going to read
>it in a secret message on the Internet," says Dr. John Renner of the
>National Council for Reliable Health Information.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  4 01:52:13 1999
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: The Ratio of Unbound Neutrinos/Antineutrinos in The Universe
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 02:45:51 -0700
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To: Vortex

To maintain a balance in Nature,for every atom there should be A
Antineutrinos and A Neutrinos.

However, there are only A - Z Antineutrinos bound in each atom and NO bound
Neutrinos.

As you go up the periodic chart starting with Hydrogen where there are no
bound Neutrinos or Antineutrinos, and thus the ratio
of unbound Neutrinos to Antineutrinos is 1:1 the ratio increases to 2:1 or
more, as the atoms get heavier, particularly up to Iron where the lions
share of atoms are.

Thus assuming some sort of Negative Charge for
the Neutrino and a similar Positive Charge for
the Antineutrino  the "Negative Charge Excess"
of Neutrinos floating around the Universe is equal to the Antineutrinos
bound up in the atoms. :-)

Then, IF the Barker Remediation Sphere,or the Biefield-Brown Effect are the
result of this Negative Charge Excess, then it could be exploited for
Transmuting the Elements and Possibly for Electrical Spacecraft Propulsion
etc.

Regards,  Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  4 02:07:32 1999
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On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Gary Vesperman wrote:

 Aspartame is a deadly poison sold as NutraSweet
 and Equal. Aspartame is causing an epidemic of
 multiple sclerosis and systemic lupus. ...

Hi All,

As a heavy user of aspartame, I'm interested in
this subject, especially in possible mechanisms.
One theory for the cause of MS is that the body
responds to an initial viral infection with an
auto-immune attack on itself.  Another theory is
that MS is a bacterial disease like syphillis,
and the germs consume our nerves.  How is MS
caused by aspartame?

Does anyone have information on the supposed
positive correlation between aspartame sales
and brain tumor incidence?

Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  4 02:07:50 1999
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Message-ID: <36B9727F.FB5EB38E mccir3.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 11:12:15 +0100
From: Jean-Paul Biberian <biberian mccir3.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
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Subject: Re: Jabon: Catalytically Induced D-D Fusion in Ferroelectrics  Dec, 1997
References: <36A6B974.7F8EDF79 earthlink.net>
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Hi all

I tried opening the file concerning this paper, but could not read it correctly.
Has anyone succeeded?

Jean-Paul Biberian

Richard T. Murray wrote:

>   ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Catalytically Induced D-D Fusion in Ferroelectrics
> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:10:49 -0800
> From: "David Naugler" <dnaugler sfu.ca>
> Organization: IMBB
> Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
>
> Brazilian Journal of Physics, vol. 27, no. 4, december, 1997 515
>
> "Catalitically Induced D­D Fusion in Ferroelectrics
>
> V.D. Dougar Jabon 1 , G.V. Fedorovich 2 and N.V. Samsonenko 3
>
> 1 Escuela de Fisica, Universidad Industrial de Santander, Bucaramanga,
> A.A.678, Colombia
>
> 2 Theoretical Problem Department, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow,
> 121002, Russia
>
> 3 Department of Theoretical Physics, Russian Friendship University, Moscow,
> 117198, Russia
>
> Received March 15, 1997
>
> Abstract:
>
> A model of deuteron acceleration in ferroelectrical crystals under the
> process of domain polarization reversal is proposed. Experimental
> verification of the model with LiTaO 3 crystals saturated with deuterium was
> fulfilled. It was shown that in the 75 kV/cm a.c. field the neutron emission
> attributed to D­D fusion is two order magnitude higher the Jones level."
>
> The entire paper can be obtained as a zip compressed file of the original
> postscript at:
>
> http://www-sbf.if.usp.br/WWW_pages/Journals/BJP/Vol27/Num4/index.htm
>
> Could this possibly portend of a 'fusion gap' with Columbia?
>
> NOTE: this is a repost. The original post contained foreign characters which
> may cause problems for some readers. I have changed the spelling of the
> subject line.
>
>   ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   Richard T. "Rich" Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
>
>   Richard T. "Rich" Murray
>     <rmforall earthlink.net>
>     Home: 505-986-8250
>     Work: 505-986-9103
>   Additional Information:
>   Last Name Murray
>   First NameRichard T. "Rich"
>   Version   2.1



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  4 05:24:38 1999
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: The Biefield-Brown Anti-Gravity Effect (http://www.skiesare.demon.co.uk/biebrn.
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Is this a force developed by High Field Polarization of the "Neutrino Sea"?
Should work great in a vacuum too.
http://www.skiesare.demon.co.uk/biebrn.htm

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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: The Biefield-Brown Anti-Gravity Effect, or Field Induced "Polarization/Force" of Neutrinos?
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The Biefield-Brown Anti-Gravity Effect

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Taken from KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
Sponsored by Vangard Sciences
PO BOX 1031
Mesquite, TX 75150

There are ABSOLUTELY NO RESTRICTIONS
on duplicating, publishing or distributing the
files on KeelyNet!

December 27, 1990

BIEBRN1.ASC


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

The Biefield-Brown Anti-Gravity Effect
While researching the effects of X-rays generated from a Coolidge tube, =
American physicist, T. Townsend Brown found a relationship between =
gravity and high voltage.=20

Press reports state that a 2 foot diameter disc was made to fly around a =
central pole when tethered and excited with a potential of 50 KiloVolts. =
The disc circled the pole at almost 12 MPH.=20

Later improvements using 3 foot discs driven by potentials of 150 =
KiloVolts and up yielded results so spectacular that the test results =
were classified.=20

Working in conjunction with Dr. P.A. Biefield, Brown found that highly =
charged capacitors when properly suspended showed a tendency to move =
relative to the gravitational force.=20

When the poles of a freely suspended charged capacitor were placed on a =
horizontal axis, a forward thrust would be produced which would move the =
capacitor in the direction of the positive pole. The direction of thrust =
would reverse in conjunction with a polarity change. This is the =
phenomenon known as the Biefield-Brown Effect.=20

Anti-gravity was demonstrated by placing the capacitor on a beam balance =
and charging it. When the positive pole pointed upwards, the condenser =
would move to a point of equilibrium, when the positive pole was pointed =
downwards, the balance would show a downward deflection.=20

Experiments show the intensity of the effect to be dependent on several =
factors :


    1) the surface area of the plates
    2) the voltage differential between the plates
    3) the proximity of the plates to each other
    4) the material mass between the plates
    5) the dielectric capacity between the plates
   =20
It is interesting to note that Brown's research was being carried out =
several years BEFORE the UFO reports towards the end of World War II.=20

The Biefield-Brown Effect could be used to control the direction of =
flight by distorting the gravitational field through the use of a very =
high electrical charge "shaped" by the surface of the structure from =
which it was emitted. The humped disc shape was determined to be one of =
the most efficient.=20

Brown gave a successful demonstration of a flying airfoil in 1953. The =
device was 2 feet in diameter with later demonstrations using 3 foot =
diameter craft. These were seen to fly a 50 foot diameter course.=20

Formal scientists tend to dismiss such phenomena as being due to the =
"electrical wind" (ion) effect, yet Brown thoroughly disproved this by =
flying the discs in a vacuum. Results of this airless test were deemed =
astonishing.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Vangard note...=20
   =20
    There are reports that Brown was directly involved in the =
Philadelphia Experiment. His knowledge of the effects of high voltage on =
matter seems to have been made use of, but then we have heard that =
Einstein and Tesla were also involved.=20
    Both sources are somewhat spurious and one in particular freely =
distorts or "incorporates" information to bolster his contentions (see =
BIELEK1.ZIP).=20

    On a personal visit to Peter Kelly's lab in Georgia, I was looking =
at Peter's Museum of old Radionic equipment. Under a table was a large =
aluminum disc about 2 to 3 foot in diameter, thick in the center and =
tapering toward the rim. Next to this was a plate with two rows of metal =
spheres.=20

    The spheres appeared to be of aluminum and began with a smaller =
diameter in the left hand corner, a slightly larger diameter opposite =
(on the right) and closer together, a slightly larger diameter sphere =
(on the left) and slightly farther apart and on and on.=20

    These ever larger diameter spheres were placed in a zig-zag fashion =
with ever increasing distances between them.=20

    I asked Peter what it was and he said the disc and sphere table were =
parts of Townsend Brown's experiment which he had acquired in his many =
travels and contacts.=20

    Of course I was totally fascinated with the artifacts and we =
discussed what the spheres were for. Peter is an Electrical Engineer and =
a researcher in field energies particularly in the area of Radionics. He =
studied extensively with the late Dr. T. Galen Heironymous and has made =
a name for himself in this and other areas. Pete and his wife Marianne =
can be contacted at PO BOX 167, Lakemont, Georgia, 30552.=20

    Apparently the spheres were used as a simple way to generate high =
voltages. Electrical potential is dependent on the surface area of the =
electrode, in this case, a small diameter sphere would be charged to its =
maximum potential.=20

    A large diameter sphere would be placed at a distance sufficient to =
allow electrical breakdown (arcing) to occur which would discharge the =
first sphere into the second.=20

    This process would then replicate as the 2nd sphere accumulated a =
high charge which would discharge into the 3rd larger diameter sphere =
spaced at a specified distance.=20

    A most interesting method of achieving high voltages without the use =
of Tesla, Van de Graff or Wimhurst machines.=20

    Researchers in this area will also note that the Searle disc used a =
rotating metal plate which built up a high electrical charge on the =
outside rim.=20

    Searle believed that at sufficiently high rotational velocities, =
electrons would be centrifugally thrown to the outside rim.=20

    Another link to this effect is that of DePalma and Tewari with the =
Faraday HomoPolar Motor. When a spinning cylindrical magnet has a disc =
conductor attached to one pole and rotating with the magnet, a voltage =
can be detected when measuring between the center and the outside rim of =
the conducting disc.=20

    To my knowledge, there are NO reports that Brown used rotating AND =
charged discs although it is not without possibility.=20

    This experiment is definitely worth trying and we will videotape our =
experiments in this area for sale to other researchers.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------


If you have comments or other information relating to such topics
as this paper covers, please upload to KeelyNet or send to the
Vangard Sciences address as listed on the first page.
Thank you for your consideration, interest and support.

Jerry W. Decker.........Ron Barker...........Chuck Henderson
Vangard Sciences/KeelyNet


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
=20

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<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>The Biefield-Brown Anti-Gravity =
Effect</TITLE><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://www.skiesare.demon.co.uk/biebrn.htm><!-- created: 14/12/96 =
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<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<H1>The Biefield-Brown Anti-Gravity Effect</H1>
<HR>

<CENTER>Taken from KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501<BR>Sponsored by Vangard=20
Sciences<BR>PO BOX 1031<BR>Mesquite, TX 75150<BR><BR>There are =
ABSOLUTELY NO=20
RESTRICTIONS<BR>on duplicating, publishing or distributing the<BR>files =
on=20
KeelyNet!<BR><BR>December 27, 1990<BR><BR>BIEBRN1.ASC<BR></CENTER>
<HR>

<CENTER>The Biefield-Brown Anti-Gravity Effect</CENTER>
<P>While researching the effects of X-rays generated from a Coolidge =
tube,=20
American physicist, T. Townsend Brown found a relationship between =
gravity and=20
high voltage.=20
<P>Press reports state that a 2 foot diameter disc was made to fly =
around a=20
central pole when tethered and excited with a potential of 50 KiloVolts. =
The=20
disc circled the pole at almost 12 MPH.=20
<P>Later improvements using 3 foot discs driven by potentials of 150 =
KiloVolts=20
and up yielded results so spectacular that the test results were =
classified.=20
<P>Working in conjunction with Dr. P.A. Biefield, Brown found that =
highly=20
charged capacitors when properly suspended showed a tendency to move =
relative to=20
the gravitational force.=20
<P>When the poles of a freely suspended charged capacitor were placed on =
a=20
horizontal axis, a forward thrust would be produced which would move the =

capacitor in the direction of the positive pole. The direction of thrust =
would=20
reverse in conjunction with a polarity change. This is the phenomenon =
known as=20
the Biefield-Brown Effect.=20
<P>Anti-gravity was demonstrated by placing the capacitor on a beam =
balance and=20
charging it. When the positive pole pointed upwards, the condenser would =
move to=20
a point of equilibrium, when the positive pole was pointed downwards, =
the=20
balance would show a downward deflection.=20
<P>Experiments show the intensity of the effect to be dependent on =
several=20
factors :<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>1) the surface area of the plates<BR>2) the voltage =
differential=20
    between the plates<BR>3) the proximity of the plates to each =
other<BR>4) the=20
    material mass between the plates<BR>5) the dielectric capacity =
between the=20
    plates<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>It is interesting to note that Brown's research was being carried out =
several=20
years BEFORE the UFO reports towards the end of World War II.=20
<P>The Biefield-Brown Effect could be used to control the direction of =
flight by=20
distorting the gravitational field through the use of a very high =
electrical=20
charge &quot;shaped&quot; by the surface of the structure from which it =
was=20
emitted. The humped disc shape was determined to be one of the most =
efficient.=20
<P>Brown gave a successful demonstration of a flying airfoil in 1953. =
The device=20
was 2 feet in diameter with later demonstrations using 3 foot diameter =
craft.=20
These were seen to fly a 50 foot diameter course.=20
<P>Formal scientists tend to dismiss such phenomena as being due to the=20
&quot;electrical wind&quot; (ion) effect, yet Brown thoroughly disproved =
this by=20
flying the discs in a vacuum. Results of this airless test were deemed=20
astonishing.<BR>
<HR>
Vangard note...=20
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR>There are reports that Brown was directly involved in =
the=20
    Philadelphia Experiment. His knowledge of the effects of high =
voltage on=20
    matter seems to have been made use of, but then we have heard that =
Einstein=20
    and Tesla were also involved.=20
    <P>Both sources are somewhat spurious and one in particular freely =
distorts=20
    or &quot;incorporates&quot; information to bolster his contentions =
(see=20
    BIELEK1.ZIP).=20
    <P>On a personal visit to Peter Kelly's lab in Georgia, I was =
looking at=20
    Peter's Museum of old Radionic equipment. Under a table was a large =
aluminum=20
    disc about 2 to 3 foot in diameter, thick in the center and tapering =
toward=20
    the rim. Next to this was a plate with two rows of metal spheres.=20
    <P>The spheres appeared to be of aluminum and began with a smaller =
diameter=20
    in the left hand corner, a slightly larger diameter opposite (on the =
right)=20
    and closer together, a slightly larger diameter sphere (on the left) =
and=20
    slightly farther apart and on and on.=20
    <P>These ever larger diameter spheres were placed in a zig-zag =
fashion with=20
    ever increasing distances between them.=20
    <P>I asked Peter what it was and he said the disc and sphere table =
were=20
    parts of Townsend Brown's experiment which he had acquired in his =
many=20
    travels and contacts.=20
    <P>Of course I was totally fascinated with the artifacts and we =
discussed=20
    what the spheres were for. Peter is an Electrical Engineer and a =
researcher=20
    in field energies particularly in the area of Radionics. He studied=20
    extensively with the late Dr. T. Galen Heironymous and has made a =
name for=20
    himself in this and other areas. Pete and his wife Marianne can be =
contacted=20
    at PO BOX 167, Lakemont, Georgia, 30552.=20
    <P>Apparently the spheres were used as a simple way to generate high =

    voltages. Electrical potential is dependent on the surface area of =
the=20
    electrode, in this case, a small diameter sphere would be charged to =
its=20
    maximum potential.=20
    <P>A large diameter sphere would be placed at a distance sufficient =
to allow=20
    electrical breakdown (arcing) to occur which would discharge the =
first=20
    sphere into the second.=20
    <P>This process would then replicate as the 2nd sphere accumulated a =
high=20
    charge which would discharge into the 3rd larger diameter sphere =
spaced at a=20
    specified distance.=20
    <P>A most interesting method of achieving high voltages without the =
use of=20
    Tesla, Van de Graff or Wimhurst machines.=20
    <P>Researchers in this area will also note that the Searle disc used =
a=20
    rotating metal plate which built up a high electrical charge on the =
outside=20
    rim.=20
    <P>Searle believed that at sufficiently high rotational velocities,=20
    electrons would be centrifugally thrown to the outside rim.=20
    <P>Another link to this effect is that of DePalma and Tewari with =
the=20
    Faraday HomoPolar Motor. When a spinning cylindrical magnet has a =
disc=20
    conductor attached to one pole and rotating with the magnet, a =
voltage can=20
    be detected when measuring between the center and the outside rim of =
the=20
    conducting disc.=20
    <P>To my knowledge, there are NO reports that Brown used rotating =
AND=20
    charged discs although it is not without possibility.=20
    <P>This experiment is definitely worth trying and we will videotape =
our=20
    experiments in this area for sale to other =
researchers.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<HR>

<CENTER><BR>If you have comments or other information relating to such=20
topics<BR>as this paper covers, please upload to KeelyNet or send to=20
the<BR>Vangard Sciences address as listed on the first page.<BR>Thank =
you for=20
your consideration, interest and support.<BR><BR>Jerry W. =
Decker.........Ron=20
Barker...........Chuck Henderson<BR>Vangard =
Sciences/KeelyNet<BR></CENTER>
<HR>
<A href=3D"ufo-doc.htm"><IMG =
src=3D"cid:005401be5040$2eb51160$87441d26 default"></A>
<HR>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  4 14:26:23 1999
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Farnsworth Fusor effort at EarthTech - BLP
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 17:29:36 -0500
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Nice picture of the warpcore, Mr. Scott.
-
I know this isn't exactly the type of suggestion you were  looking
for, but if you could add some K and raise the temperature a little
you might get gammas from the reaction of hydrino duteride to tritium.
This would be an interesting combination of Vince's discharge tube
and previous BLP experiments with D2O showing increasing formation
of tritium with time in their K2CO3 nickel cells when D2O replaces the
H2O. The BLP experiment is described on pages 494-495 in the Sept. 1996
edition of Mills' book. The experiment looks quite convincing. 
-
This experiment would also be easy for Vince, just replace the H2 cylinder
with a D2 cylinder. Not sure if the reaction proposed by Mills would
release detectable radiation outside the quartz tube, but perhaps
someone with more knowledge in this area could clarify this.
-
I checked the BLP site and there appears to be new section called:
"Inorganic Hydrogen and Hydrogen Polymer Compounds"
that has been added very recently.The URL is
http://www.blacklightpower.com/experiments.html section 2.
-
George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
1924 US Hwy 22 East            Bound Brook NJ 08805


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  4 15:05:17 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Joke.... Common Sense ... Aspartame
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	It is always a good idea to do at least a modicum of 
investigation when presented with claims from "experts".
	I personally have a background in chemistry.... and the following 
are series of "warnings"  ... these are humorous jokes...  A little bit 
of what I saw on www from recents posts on Aspartame was used as a 
template ... the EXACT extension of thinking ... yoields the following 
"WARNINGS"

	Food Additive Causes Real TROUBLE !!!!

	A common food additive is used by most of the major packaged food 
producers in the world.  This additive is found in everything from snack 
foods like corn chips to baby food to salad dressing and most canned 
vegtables.  
	The additive is made up of two dangerous ingrdients no matter WHO 
the producer is!  Both of the ingrdients are termed "chemical poison."  
As you shall see this is exacly what thse ingrdients are.
	We will call these ingrdients "N" and "C".  
	"N" is a soft material with a beautiful luster ... so soft it can 
be cut with a sharp knife at room temperature.   Remember:  Mercury is a 
shiney material which is a LIQUID at room temperature and you can 
manipulate it with a SPOON at room temperature ... and mercury is a POISON!!
	If "N" is exposed to the air for a short period of time it turns 
an UGLY GRAY COLOR and then you know you are just steps away from BAD NEWS!
If you take nice fresh "N" and combine it with ordinary WATER a vigorous 
reaction takes place... and the "N" get HOT... and produces a solution of 
LYE... YES!  Caustic LYE!!!   And THEN the "N" can get so hot an 
explosion can occur.

	THINGS GET MUCH MUCH WORSE!!!

	The other ingredient called "C" in its natural form can cause 
PERMANENT EFECTS IN THE BODY .... the seemingly innocuous pleasing yellow 
green ish ingrdient is a FOOLER!  The eye response for the human peaks in 
the yellow green and this color range is often associated with healing 
and green growing things... BUT !!!  Don't be fooled.  A list of 
permanent effects includes 
	Chemical pneumonia
	Blindness
	Blisters on ALL exposed skin

	Prolonged exposure results in DEATH.  In fact, "C" has been used 
in at least one major war effort as a toxic agent of military DEATH!

	Yes, it is true ...

	Na  +  Cl ..... "N" or sodium plus "C" chlorine for SALT .... and 
this additive is 50% N and 50% C !!!!


				
	Read the book.... see the movie .... see the mini series ... get 
the bumber sticker !!!


				The above is a JOKE !!!!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  4 15:43:13 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Farnsworth Fusor effort at EarthTech - BLP
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At 17:29 2/4/99 -0500, George Holz wrote:

>The BLP experiment....looks quite convincing. 

The first thing I would like to do w.r.t BLP is perform a rigorous
calorimetric measurement on one of their own cells...as opposed to trying
further to replicate their experiments here at EarthTech.  To this end, I
wrote BLP yesterday as follows:

via email to inquiries blacklightpower.com:

Dr. Mills,

EarthTech would like to partner with BLP to develop your energy technology.
 Our sponsor is ready to pour many millions into the development of a
viable new energy technology.  In addition he is uniquely positioned to
usher such a technology into the world economy without starting another
world war.

However, prior to introducing you to our sponsor, we must confirm your
excess heat measurements with our own calorimetry.  

Recent developments here have made it now practical for us to bring our
calorimetry to your facility.  A description of this portable calorimeter
system can be found at:

http://www.eden.com/~little/vwfc/vwfc.html

This calorimeter (in one form or another) has been thoroughly proven on a
wide variety of experiments, including our own frustrating efforts to
replicate one of your experiments.  You can read about some of these
investigations in the "Experiments and Reports" section of our web page at:

http://www.eden.com/~little

At your convenience, I am ready to travel to your facility to perform the
necessary tests.

I await your response.

Scott R. Little, EarthTech


If any Vortex members have contact with BLP, please urge them to accept our
offer.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  4 15:49:01 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: letter to Dr. Case
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on Jan 25 1999, I mailed the following letter to Dr. Les Case...no response
yet:

Dr. Les Case
P.O. Box 495
Greenland, NH 03840

Dear Les,

Rumor has it that you are continuing to develop your catalyst cold fusion
technology...and continuing to improve your results.
 
I am glad to hear this.  As you well know, the fact that our own efforts to
replicate your phenomena failed, is almost totally inconsequential.  It
just proves that there is at least one way to not obtain the desired effect!

As I mentioned in my last letter to you (dated 22MAY98), I am worried that
your excess temperature observations may not actually represent excess heat. 

In that same letter I invited you to bring your apparatus to Austin for a
free calorimetric measurement, which would rigorously measure the actual
heat output of your device.  Since that time, some new developments here
make it now practical for me to bring that level of calorimetry to your place.

I have enclosed a general description of my new calorimeter system for your
perusal.    If you are still getting a strong positive excess heat signal
from your experiment, I would be willing to travel to your place to
determine whether or not it actually is excess heat...free of charge to you.

I am confident that I could arrange the necessary heat exchanger so that it
would not significantly perturb the normal operating environment of your
device.  That means you could continue to monitor the device exactly as you
usually do...while my system was simultaneously providing an independent
measurement of the total heat energy being released.  We should therefore
be able to first observe your excess temperature effect...and then look
over at my instruments to see if it is actually excess heat.

We make this offer simply because it is our goal to find a new energy
source for mankind.   In our minds, the chance that your discovery is real
justifies the expense of the trip.  If my measurements confirm your excess
heat, we would be most interested in working out a cooperative development
agreement with you.  
We have access to vast resources IF we can identify a viable energy
technology.  However, please understand that the choice will be entirely
yours.  My visit would place you under no obligation to work with us.

I look forward to your response.




Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  4 19:41:09 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Scott, George, and anyone else who's been discussing BLP's work (Mike, have
you been chipping in on that recently?):

What was that reference to a BLP experiment that looked quite convincing?  

Sorry to ask such a belated question, but I didn't notice until tonight the
three letters at the end of the title of the thread, "Farnsworth Fusor effort
at EarthTech - BLP," so I've missed any discussion of BLP that occurred in
that thread before Scott posted his email to Mills.

The Farnsworth Fusor is a very interesting device, but one can't keep up with
everything, and it's quite separate from what Mills is doing, two different
threads, it seems to me.

Re Scott's email to Mills:  I'll be surprised if it gets a response.  Judging
by the money Mills has already raised, and by the new stuff on the BLP website
this year, notably the list of labs his company is working with and the
bldg.gif of his new headquarters, Mills already has access to all the money he
needs.  

The material posted on the website also says explicitly that energy and power
production, though still important in BLP's plans, are now secondary to the
R&D of BLP's new chemicals unit.

Furthermore, I think that Mills has long since reached the stage at which he'd
insist on knowing the identity of the mysterious sponsor before considering
whether or not to allow someone working for that sponsor to do any tests at
BLP.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  4 21:03:32 1999
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
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Subject: Re: BLP, EarthTech
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The new section that George Holtz mentions is, I think, a duplicate of the
hydrino hydride material listed elswehere. The first looks like it was
lifted from a patent application (BLP has filed for fundamental patents on
the HHCs). The second looks like the same material, but formatted for Mills
new book.

My study of BLP and conversations with Mills agree with Tom Stolper's
assessment. Mills is very much his own man, and probably has the best game
plan of anyone I have seen in the new energy field. He doesn't need a
patron, he has sold $10.6 million in private placements and apparently
hasn't spent it all yet.

He has done Clavet calorimetry, which is probably as good as you can get for
precision measurements. One really has to look at the Website and the
hundreds of pages of measurements in a variety of laboratories.

He has had his share of skeptics as has the CF field. They look at the test
data, see the UV radiation, all the rest, doubt and ask for more. This just
hasn't been public as it has been on vortex. One reason for the current
emphasis on the hydrino hydrides is that chemical samples can be given to
qualified people to test in their own labs and see that some very abnormal
forms of hydrogen are present.

Mills doesn't need to be qualified by calorimetry. He is past that. The
problems he faces are ones of scale-up to get self-sustaining systems with
surplus power output that also produce hydrino hydrides for chemical
applications.

Mills' game plan is to auction licenses for his chemicals and power systems,
with fees up front plus royalties for long term cash flow. BLP will then be
master of its destiny, not beholden to a patron.

IMHO there is a significant R&D cycle ahead for BLP before marketable
systems and chemicals are available. Meanwhile, vortexians should go the
Website <www.blacklightpower.com>, and study the Background and Introduction
section (available from the first page), then click on the red new stuff
announcement and study the executive summary within that. Contemplate the
hyper-battery technology which BLP projects. If they can pull it off.....

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  4 22:52:25 1999
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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:52:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Farnsworth Fusor effort at EarthTech
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Scott,

I read your message and looked at your picture. The first thing that
struck me is that your system is very far from spherical symmetry. The
idealized concept is to get ions oscillating radially---from the
neighborhood of the outer electrode, through the center of the sphere,
across to the other side, and back again, etc. The spherical
convergence of the ions has to be very high in order to increase the
probability of a headon fusion collision between two ions. However,
Coulomb scattering of the oscillating ions is much more likely than
fusion and scatters the ions away from high convergence trajectories.
As far as I know, no one seems to have come up with a way around this
fundamental difficulty. However, if one has good spherical symmetry
and low intercept probablity of ions by the inner grid wires, then
Farnsworth and other electrostatic ion traps can produce detectable
neutron counts. George Miley has actually developed a commercial
neutron source for measurement applications based on these ideas. I
have seen pictures of a couple of Miley's traps. They are
qualitatively like yours. However, I remember that Miley's had more
wire circles in each spherical electrode. More wires improves
spherical uniformity (good) but adds ion intercept area (bad). I think
that Miley's also had a spherical metallic shell as its outermost
boundary, not a vacuum cross, which would improve spherical uniformity
seen by the ions near their outer turning points.

If you are serious about getting some neutron production out of an
electrostatic trap, I would recommend attention to better spherical
uniformity. I would increase the radii somewhat. This would make
spherical uniformity less sensitive to fabrication tolerances. It
might also help you raise voltage, so you could get higher energy
ions. The proper gas pressure is critical. It is a low pressure. Do
you have any information from Miley? I will look to see if I have any
filed away somewhere.
==
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  4 23:01:30 1999
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Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 01:01:39 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: BLP, EarthTech
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At 10:31 PM 2/4/99 EST, Tstolper aol.com wrote:

>Furthermore, I think that Mills has long since reached the stage at which
he'd
>insist on knowing the identity of the mysterious sponsor before considering
>whether or not to allow someone working for that sponsor to do any tests at
>BLP.

If Mills requires that information before permitting the test, we can
supply it to him confidentially.

then Mike Carrell wrote:

>Mills doesn't need to be qualified by calorimetry. He is past that.

That may be the case but it is certainly not evident from the writeups he
presents.  For example the web write-up on the gas-phase experiment we
attempted describes a single-point temperature measurement as the
calorimetry.  Such a technique can easily be in error by 50% relative if
the heat source moves inside the chamber.  In that experiment the
calibration heater and the heat source used during active runs (filament)
were physically separate so the heat source definitely moved between
calibration and the active runs.

The Calvet calorimetry at U. of Penn sounds a lot better but, on the other
hand, the observed excess was a lot smaller...only 5-10% relative.  Despite
the apparent theoretical soundness of that technique, I've seen a similar
calorimeter (Seebeck envelope) produce 50% relative errors upon movement of
the heat source inside the chamber.  Even though there was no deliberate
movement, inadvertent shifts (i.e. in convection patterns inside the
chamber) could have caused 10% errors in the U of Penn experiments.

Since Mills obviously values the reports of other labs that have confirmed
his excess heat, he should be willing to let us confirm it, too.  We are
willing to perform the tests on-site...for free...and provide him with a
detailed written report of our findings.  

We would also be glad to have an independent observer(s) attend the testing
session to judge the validity of our measurements.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb  4 23:09:22 1999
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Subject: Re: Farnsworth Fusor effort at EarthTech
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At 10:52 PM 2/4/99 -0800, Michael Schaffer wrote:

>If you are serious about getting some neutron production out of an
>electrostatic trap, I would recommend attention to better spherical
>uniformity. I would increase the radii somewhat. This would make
>spherical uniformity less sensitive to fabrication tolerances. It
>might also help you raise voltage, so you could get higher energy
>ions. The proper gas pressure is critical. It is a low pressure.

Yeah, I'm figuring that out.  All I've done so far is make a pretty
picture....at what is certainly too high a pressure (~mtorr).
I've been poring over the patents and they confirm your low pressure
idea....10^-6 torr or so.  Many of the embodiments employ ion sources
around the OD rather that trying to make a glow discharge inside the
chamber.  That sounds more likely to work at very low pressures.

>Do you have any information from Miley? I will look to see if I have any
>filed away somewhere.

Just what's on his web page.  I'd appreciate anything you come up with.
I'll contact Miley and see what he says.

Thanks


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  5 04:25:39 1999
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
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Cc: <Ron.Brodzinski pnl.gov>
Subject: Re: Solar Neutrino Pyramid Scheme
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To: Vortex

If you look at the "optics" of the Great Pyramid you will see that it is
acting as a form of prism which can exploit the optical properties of
neutrinos and concentrate them
on the mummies' crypt.

Also in the early times there was a metallic "cap" on the top which became
electrically charged during lightning storms, further enhancing the neutrino
concentration in the appropriate area.

Based on this gem of scientific discovery it is recommended that all
buildings with hip roofs be covered with sheet metal  charged up with at
least 50,000 volts electrical potential in order to concentrate the 4E-14
neutrinos/m^2/sec on the central heating system
and areas where people gather to concentrate.

Frank Stenger's barn would be a good place for
preliminary proof of principle(after the snow melts off the roof).  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Solar Neutrino Pyramid Scheme
Cc: <Ron.Brodzinski pnl.gov>
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At 05:20 AM 2/5/99 -0700, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

>If you look at the "optics" of the Great Pyramid you will see that it is
>acting as a form of prism which can exploit the optical properties of
>neutrinos and concentrate them
>on the mummies' crypt.

...hmmm! with a sufficient flux, the body could eventually be reactivated
as a host for a neutrino-based intelligence, which means...."The Mummy" was
actually a documentary!  Fred, sometimes it's just spooky how your wild
ideas dovetail into real world experiences.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  5 06:39:03 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Farnsworth Fusor effort at EarthTech
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:35:10 -0500
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Scott,

I understand that magnetizing the inner sphere wires will reduce ion
collisions and allow you to run at higher voltages.

How do you plan to detect neutrons?

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc., P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
voice: (603) 226-4822    fax: (603) 224-5975    
website: www.infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  5 07:04:04 1999
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Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:02:43 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: XRF at EarthTech
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EarthTech now has in-house x-ray fluorescence analysis capability!  It's a
funky-looking system but it works great.

Picture and info at:

http://www.eden.com/~little/xrf/xrf.html

Here's a quote from our RIFEX paper about XRF:

>>>>
To look for these elements we employed x-ray fluorescence (XRF) which is a
non-destructive elemental analysis technique that provides excellent
specimen versatility.  Liquids, solids, powders, beads and odd shapes can
all be accommodated with relative ease.  Importantly, we happen to have a
great deal of experience with XRF analysis consisting of 20+ years
designing, building, and supporting a wide variety of industrial XRF
analyzer systems.   This work involved countless application studies
wherein XRF results were compared with other analytical techniques.  An
incredible variety of errors were encountered in these application studies,
and the experience of finding and correcting them has been of great value
to the present investigation.
<<<<





Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  5 09:42:44 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Farnsworth Fusor effort at EarthTech
In-Reply-To: <199902051431.JAA22261 mercury.mv.net>
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At 09:35 2/5/99 -0500, Ed Wall wrote:

>I understand that magnetizing the inner sphere wires will reduce ion
>collisions and allow you to run at higher voltages.

hmmmmm.

>How do you plan to detect neutrons?

The 1" dia stainless tube above the Conflat chamber in the photo is a He3
counter (courtesy of Dennis Letts).  I am a novice at neutron detection and
have just learned from Tom Claytor that a thick layer of polyethylene
around it will increase sensitivity by ~10X.  The He3 detector apparently
has some sensitivity to fast neutrons but it is more sensitive to thermal
neutrons.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  5 10:42:48 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Farnsworth Fusor effort at EarthTech
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990205114118.0096b9b0 mail.eden.com>
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Scott Little wrote:

>The 1" dia stainless tube above the Conflat chamber in the photo is a He3
>counter (courtesy of Dennis Letts).  I am a novice at neutron detection and
>have just learned from Tom Claytor that a thick layer of polyethylene
>around it will increase sensitivity by ~10X.

You need to set up proper shielding around the entire experiment, or the
neutrons may detect *you*.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  5 11:25:36 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Farnsworth Fusor effort at EarthTech
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:47:10 -0500
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Scott,

I wrote:
 
> >I understand that magnetizing the inner sphere wires will reduce ion
> >collisions and allow you to run at higher voltages.
> 
> hmmmmm.
> 
This was a piece of advice published in Electric Spacecraft in an article
on the Farnsworth Fusor.  The force on the ion will be in the direction of
the cross product of the current (ion vector) and the magnetic field, which
will be parallel to the wire of the shell.  That diverts it away from a
collision course into the wire.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc., P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
voice: (603) 226-4822    fax: (603) 224-5975    
website: www.infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  5 12:11:20 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Farnsworth Fusor effort at EarthTech - BLP
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:44:52 -0800 
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Scott
	I think you deserve an extended attaboy for your work. It must be
frustrating to keep trying all these experiments, not getting any positive
results, and having lots of criticism in the process. I want you to know
that at least I personally think you are doing a good job and performing a
valuable service to the world of science. Keep up the good work.

Hank Scudder
Rocket Scientist
Rocketdyne division of Boeing North American

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  5 12:52:02 1999
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Field-Stressed Oil Nuclear Remediation?
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:46:55 -0700
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To: Vortex

IF high fields are causing neutrino "oscillations" that can increase the
interaction cross-section by many orders of magnitude,then a suspension of a
radioisotope in a suitable oil such as transformer oil circulated between
the plates of a "capacitor"
might show this effect.

         Fission-Produced Radioisotopes

Isotope   Half-Life (yrs)    Stable"daughter"

36Kr85         10.73              37Rb85
38Sr90         29.10              40Zr90
43Tc99       213,000              44Ru99
44Ru106        1.02               46Pd106
55Cs137       30.30               56Ba137
58Ce144        0.78               60Nd144
61Pm147        2.62               62Sm147

          "Manufactured" Radioisotope
27Co60         5.27               28Ni60

             Deuterium Splitting?
1H2 Stable ---> 2 Protons + e- + antineutrino

            Natural  Radioisotopes

6C14          5715 Yr                7N14

19K40       1.26E9 Yr                20Ca40

Might be worth a shot,using some spaced plates,
a high voltage power supply, and an oil pump.


Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  5 13:48:36 1999
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Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:37:29 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Armstrong
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	Search:

	 stirling pump


	and 

	armstrong cycle

	go to www.dogpile.com

	Shows interesting note on 
	
	
		armstrong cycle

	A fluid based heat engine


					John

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  5 14:57:53 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Farnsworth Fusor effort at EarthTech - BLP
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:59:02 -0500
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Hank Scudder writes to Scott Little:
> 	I think you deserve an extended attaboy for your work. 
> 
I agree and kudos for your attitude.  It's not easy to tell people that you
cannot get their idea to work or that it probably is a bad idea.  And it's
not easy to live with so much uncertainty, like that you might be wrong
when you do so.

Ed Wall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  5 15:54:52 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Farnsworth Fusor effort at EarthTech - BLP
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At 17:59 2/5/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Hank Scudder writes to Scott Little:
>> 	I think you deserve an extended attaboy for your work. 
>> 
>I agree and kudos for your attitude.

Thanks a lot, gents.

>It's not easy to tell people that you
>cannot get their idea to work or that it probably is a bad idea.  And it's
>not easy to live with so much uncertainty, like that you might be wrong
>when you do so.

Indeed.  I worry about that quite a bit.  Things would change SO MUCH if I
could find just ONE genuine excess heat experiment.  That's why I'd like to
get in at BLP.   Say, does anybody know who their latest investors are? 



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb  5 20:16:26 1999
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Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 20:11:32 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Aspartame Hoax, Continued
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               February 04, 1999

               Congratulations to Time Magazine
               for setting the record straight on the artificial
               sweetener aspartame. As you may know, there
               has been a deluge of inaccurate information
               being sent over the Internet about this
               sweetener.

               Well, in a full-page story, Time debunks the
               e-mail attack on aspartame by using good old
               investigative journalism. The e-mail barrage
               against aspartame makes various negative
               claims and the Time writer checked each one
               out. What she discovered was they were indeed
               unsubstantiated or downright bogus.

               For example, writer Christine German looked at
               one claim that aspartame leads to "methanol
               toxicity," and her conclusion was, "Not even
               close." She notes that there’s four times as
               much methanol in a glass of tomato juice than
               there is in a can of aspartame-sweetened soda
               and "our bodies have no trouble handling such a
               tiny amount."

               There’s a good point to be made here. Many of
               us are naturally confused about conflicting
               claims over a drug, sweetener or food
               supplement. We’ve never been taught to think
               objectively and logically about these kind of
               things.

               Aspartame is safe, period. There is one warning
               about the sweetener and that is that people
               with the rare genetic disorder phenylketonuria
               shouldn’t use the sweetener because they can’t
               metabolize one of its ingredients. Ironically, the
               e-mail attacking aspartame fails to mention this
               single risk factor.

               If you get e-mail that either debunks or
               promotes various drugs or food supplements,
               don’t take them seriously. Go to reputable
               sources, like HealthCentral.com, or other highly
               regarded Internet health sites, and research the
               substance.







From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  6 03:56:25 1999
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <JMeleski juno.com>
Subject: Re: Neutrino Acrobatics and the Biefield-Brown Effect
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 04:49:13 -0700
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To: Vortex

I think one could argue correctly that a neutrino that left the Sun in 1492
could show up in your Mulligan Stew next Saturday.

With a rest mass/energy of 0.5 ev (0.8E-19 joule) and little or no charge,
the neutrino will ALWAYS TRAVEL NEAR c:

Mrel = Mo[(E/Eo)+1] = Mo/(1-v^2/c^2)^1/2

Thus when first released from a nucleus due to
a reaction, the Relativistic Mass Mrel could be nearly as much as that of a
proton. After the first elastic collision with a proton, Mrel will drop to
half that, and so on until it collides with electrons giving up Mrel as heat
but still it is rattling around at close to c.

IOW, the statement that "a neutrino can pass through a lightyear of lead
without interaction" is true, but that lightyear distance can be a random
walk a lightyear long in a glass of water.

If the Biefield-Brown Effect may be because the electric fields are causing
Ions or Electrons
to "speed up" which should also speed up the
neutrino "gas" which causes force effects on
the charged plates.

Although Brown claimed that the effect "persisted in a vacuum", one might
question how hard the vacuum was.

OTOH, there might be a small charge (+/-)on the antineutrinos/neutrinos wrt
regular charge that could contribute to the effect. It seems logical that
since neutrinos have mass and spin they should also have some sort of
charge.

An experiment in a hard vacuum with a device similar to the Crookes
Radiometer with voltages applied to the vanes might be interesting.

A neutrino Motor?  :-)

Regards,   Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  6 08:33:10 1999
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George, 

Thanks for reposting your message about a potential Mills-type variation of
the Farnsworth Fusor.  Now I see why you added the three letters BLP at the
end of the title of the thread.

A question:  would deuterium atoms remain atoms inside a Farnsworth Fusor?
(Mike Schaffer:  any opinion about this?)

According to Mills' theory, you'd need deuterium atoms and K+ ions to produce
the deuterinos (1/n quantum states of deuterium) that would be needed to form
dideuterino molecules, some which might then fuse by quantum tunneling.
Deuterium ions would be useless for getting the catalytic reaction started:
only the neutral atomic form of deuterium would work.

(Come to think of it, could deuterium molecules, D2 molecules, form inside a
Farnsworth Fusor for even a tiny fraction of a second?  If not, then
dideuterino molecules might also not be able to form for even the very short
time required for quantum tunneling to occur within them.)

As far as I know, there's nothing in Mills' published work or in any of the
BlackLight Power website material to indicate that Mills has ever pursued any
nuclear reactions, except for that one old electrolytic heavy water experiment
that yielded tritium.

You referenced pages 494-495 in the Sept. 1996 edition of Mills' book.  I have
the November 1995 edition, and there's a single tritium experiment on pages
471-473.  The title of that section is "Heavy Water Tritium Experiment."
There is one figure, showing the increase in tritium over about three weeks,
and there are seven References at the end of the section.  Does that sound
like the same section?

I can think of several reasons why Mills apparently never pursued any nuclear
reactions any further.  One of them is safety.  I'd be awfully nervous about
running deuterium in a cell like Vince Cockeram's.  Gaseous tritium isn't good
for one's health if anything breaks.  Furthermore, a high-temperature gas-
phase cell like Vince's might produce deuterinos fairly far down the quantum
ladder, and those deuterinos might produce unhealthy levels of stuff other
than tritium, e.g., gammas and neutrons.  In the context of Mills' views about
the solar corona, Mills has said that hydrinos (and presumably deuterinos) can
flare up.  If I were in Vince's shoes, I'd be strongly inclined to leave
deuterium work to researchers like Tom Claytor who have access to safe
facilities.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  6 09:03:19 1999
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Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 11:54:23 -0800
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From: Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
Subject: Re: Neutrino Acrobatics and the Biefield-Brown Effect
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To Vortex and Fred,

At 04:49 AM 02/06/99 -0700, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
>An experiment in a hard vacuum with a device similar to the Crookes
>Radiometer with voltages applied to the vanes might be interesting.
>
>A neutrino Motor?  :-)
>

If I remember my Tesla history accurately, (not always a sure thing :-)
Crookes got the idea of the radiometer directly from his friend Nikola
Tesla after witnessing rotating vanes that Tesla had pivoting at the top of
his coil. 
Tesla's vanes operated on different principals than the radiometer.
Although Tesla's vanes appeared similar in construction to the Radiometer
vanes [ from a distance ], there were important differences. First-the
operating pressure. (Standard.)  Also, there were two basic types-- 1.)
whereas Crookes used a black surface on one side of the alternate vanes,
Tesla used stand-off insulators to hold metal plates [similar in size to
the vanes]. 2.) With the other type, he used nonmetallic plates attached
with the same stand-offs.

I suppose the theory of operation could be the activation of some neutrino
sea, but I don't understand that stuff :-)
Tesla thought it's operation was caused by the difference of forces
imparted by the charged air ions--  one of the plates is being directly
charged; the other is not. The ions therefore, were vibrating on one side
with more force because the interposing plate was partially screening the
full force of the electric field from the air. ( In a sense, it acted like
a voltage divider.)

Another theory-- 
The forces within the plate assemblies are unequal due to the unequal
interaction of  resonant cavity forces [standing waves]. As is well known,
standing waves can impart momentum [or force]. I suggest the forces were
unequal between the two plates since one of the plates was charged and the
other was not. This theory is admittedly presumptive since it supposes that
a standing wave imparts a different force when reflecting from a *charged*
plate. Has this been proven? 

Tesla noted that this 'effect' stopped working when high frequency
(smoothed) sine waves were used on the primary of his coil. 
The effect only manifested with the spark gap type of coils (which have
much faster rise times and richer harmonics, etc.)

It often makes me wonder if a Casimir resonant cavity would levitate if
identically wired up to a [spark-gap] Tesla coil.. :-)

BTW, didn't Brown get some of his ideas from Crookes?

Regards,
Colin Quinney

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Subject: Re: Biefield-Brown Motor, Speculation
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To: Vortex

If the thought that neutrinos "(-)"outnumber antineutrinos "(+)" by about
2:1, the relativistic momentum effects might account for the repulsive force
exerted on the negatively charged plate of the "capacitor".

Since Mrel = Mo[(E/Eo)+1] where Eo is the rest energy of the neutrino or
antineutrino and Mo = Eo/c^2, interaction with an electric field will
increase E and thus Mrel resulting in a rapid increase in momentum Mrel*c or
Mo[(E/Eo)+1]*c.

With the plate layout as follows:

                     |-|/|+|
          (-)(+)(-)  |-|/|+| (-)(-)(+)
                     |-|/|+|
     (+)    (-)  (-) |-|/|+| (-) (-) (+)
 (+)     (-)   (+)   |-|/|+|  (+) (-) (-)
       (-) (+)  (-)  |-|/|+| (-) (+) (-)
     (+) (-)     (-) |-|/|+|
                     |-|/|+|
where (+) and (-) represent a charge or polarizability of the antineutrino
or neutrino respectively.

The Unsymetrical amounts of neutrinos (-)vs the antineutrinos (-) pervading
everything as a "Neutrino Sea" with the rest of the antineutrinos tied up in
the atoms, should result in the Biefield-Brown Force, and possibly be used
as a means for Spacecraft Propulsion.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  6 12:23:09 1999
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: What next?
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:18:51 -0700
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Now that Tyson is in the Slammer,The Senate wants Monica to get in the ring
so they can watch her box.

FJS



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  6 13:26:17 1999
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Subject: Aperion
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Check it out...

http://redshift.vif.com/current.htm

New issue is posted.

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  6 15:18:58 1999
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Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:27:19 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Biefield-Brown Effect and standing waves
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At 11:54 AM 2/6/99, Quinney wrote:
[snip]
>Another theory--
>The forces within the plate assemblies are unequal due to the unequal
>interaction of  resonant cavity forces [standing waves]. As is well known,
>standing waves can impart momentum [or force].
[snip]

One problem with this theory is that (photon) standing waves can only
create significant force at a distance if the reflection efficiency is very
near one at both ends of the beam, or the beam energy supply is enormous.
The energy required is 2.94x10^9 watts per kg force.  A 10 KW supply
weighing 50 kg could thus levitate if each photon in the the beam
refelected back and forth:

  Reflections =  (2.94x10^9 W/kg)(50 kg)/(10,000 W) = 14.7 million times

before escaping the beam.  This is an incredible reflectivity, even for a
closed chamber.  The energy requirement is based upon the high
energy/momentum ratio for the photon.  For this reason, the high energy
requirement, it appears the projection of force, especially for levitation
of mundane objects or craft, requires other than a photonic beam or
standing wave explanation, if conventional physics is applied, and the
photons are internally generated.  It takes too much energy to get enough
momentum involved.  Regardless of any forces applied by plate charge
differences, the conservation of momentum law and the fixed energy/momentum
ratio kills the prospect of more net force.  This problem might handily be
overcome if momentum can be stolen from the ZPE sea, by stealing
mass-energy for example.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  6 18:40:55 1999
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Subject: Re: Biefield-Brown Effect and standing waves
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To Vortex:

At 02:27 PM 02/06/99 -0900, Horace wrote:
>At 11:54 AM 2/6/99, Quinney wrote:
>[snip]
>>Another theory--
>>The forces within the plate assemblies are unequal due to the unequal
>>interaction of  resonant cavity forces [standing waves]. As is well known,
>>standing waves can impart momentum [or force].
>[snip]
>
>One problem with this theory is that (photon) standing waves can only
>create significant force at a distance if the reflection efficiency is very
>near one at both ends of the beam, or the beam energy supply is enormous.
>The energy required is 2.94x10^9 watts per kg force.  A 10 KW supply
>weighing 50 kg could thus levitate if each photon in the the beam
>refelected back and forth:
>
>  Reflections =  (2.94x10^9 W/kg)(50 kg)/(10,000 W) = 14.7 million times
>
>before escaping the beam.  This is an incredible reflectivity, even for a
>closed chamber.  The energy requirement is based upon the high
>energy/momentum ratio for the photon.  
<snip>

Thanks Horace, but these objects probably only weighed about a gram, and
they were vertically pivoted, so the only opposing forces were horizontal
ones. (pivot friction, air resistance, etc.) I agree with you that the high
energy/momentum ratio for the photon [that is bouncing back and forth] is
imparting minuscule force. However-- consider that the generator of this
particular wave was an extremely high voltage coil with a high rise-time
leading edge. ( .. also producing damped waves.) -- I wish I could remember
the source-- but I recall reading somewhere that the high voltages can
create longitudinal electrostatic fields-- and that momentum may be more
easily imparted under those conditions [without the high number of required
multiple reflections]. (Can anyone confirm that? It may have been from
'Electric Spacecraft'.)

Also-- under those conditions and assuming a conservative reflection force
differential (~ 1%), and that Tesla probably used a demonstration coil [I'd
guess] of about one KW-- do you *then* think it possible that the vanes
were rotated from the unbalanced internal reflection mc* forces, where the
speed of light slows near a charged plate, and since it slows, [to conserve
mc,] it *must* impart additional momentum?
 
Regards,
Colin Quinney

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  6 21:57:40 1999
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Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:59:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Farnsworth Fusor effort at EarthTech - BLP
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Tstolper aol.com wrote:
>A question:  would deuterium atoms remain atoms inside a Farnsworth
Fusor?
>(Mike Schaffer:  any opinion about this?)

Yes, the gas in a "Farnworth Fusor" is not fully ionized. There are
still both deuterium atoms and molecules there, as well as ions and
electrons.

I can't say anything about Mills' deuterinos and such, since he seems
to be the only one to have seen them. Some time ago I read a few of
the plasma papers cited on the BLP website in support of his theory.
Those papers described conventional plasma physics, and Mills appears
to either not have understood them or to have misinterpreted them.
They certainly do not support his theory in any direct way.

[snip]
>One of them is safety.  I'd be awfully nervous about
>running deuterium in a cell like Vince Cockeram's.  Gaseous tritium
isn't 
>good for one's health if anything breaks. 

But in small enough quantities, it is not a serious problem. So far no
one is producing anything approaching hazardous quantities of tritium
or neutrons or other ionizing radiation (except UV) from any of these
experiments. Prudence dictates that one use a simple radiation
monitor, like a Geiger counter, while running an experiment. 

Average exposure to background radiation is about 1 mrem/day.  2
mrem/hr for an 8 hr workday is much more than what one is allowed to
expose the general public to, but it is still less than the allowed
occupational exposure in the USA to radiation workers (which is 5000
mrem/yr, if I remember correctly).


==
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb  6 22:51:31 1999
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Subject: Re: Biefield-Brown Effect and standing waves
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Hi Horace,

Thanks that you chose to reply to my post. [I kid you not.] My physics
knowledge really sucks, but I could not resist posting to a subject so very
dear to my heart. I can ask a lot of *really* dumb questions and miss good
points that appear obvious to many here. For this I must apologize, but-- I
still think there is some value to pursuing this, even if only for my own
education. That is why I must reply twice-- but this time in more detail.

I guess I am trying to cheat the scales, ( pun intended ) but I strongly
feel that there is an efficient trade-off from energy to momentum using
high voltage fast-rise-time damped oscillating electric fields from spark
Tesla coils. The first time I read about this 'rotating vanes' effect, the
hairs on the back of my neck stood on end. But unfortunately Fred Sparber
also agrees with you. He has just informed me privately, "I think that the
photon momentum, mc = E/c   where E is the Photon Energy and c is the
velocity of light, is killer on this one".

Well, here we have an entity that is perhaps even travelling at slightly
more than c since it is in a cavity, but it must slow down as it approaches
the charged plate. The high electric field [oscillating ] means a high rate
of transfer of momentum. (I can't prove that. I just feel I've read it
somewhere, or I have interpreted it from reading about 'matter-waves' in
Scientific American-- ESJ, who knows? Also see end-- my simplistic math :-) 

>One problem with this theory is that (photon) standing waves can only
>create significant force at a distance if the reflection efficiency is very
>near one at both ends of the beam, or the beam energy supply is enormous.

Either I do not understand this or I do not agree with it. My understanding
is that repetitious photon reflection efficiency was not related to energy
transfer. Instead-- it makes sense to me that a photon which imparts
momentum, would doppler to conserve mass-energy in an open system, and that
this continuous frequency shifting it is not generally considered to be
reflecting at 100% efficiency. It's wavelength is increasing and therefore
it is losing energy. Hopefully we are losing it to a force transfer. 

The other point I would like to draw to your attention is your reference to
enormous energy. I am not levitating kilogram masses here. I am just trying
to get a handle on an alternative theory to the one proposed by Tesla as to
why his vanes rotated. The forces necessary to start the vanes rotating are
really minuscule; IOW, I am looking for a baby, not the CEO.

>The energy required is 2.94x10^9 watts per kg force.  A 10 KW supply
>weighing 50 kg could thus levitate if each photon in the the beam
>refelected back and forth:

Now here's where my lack of physics *really* shows, I'm sure, because I do
not understand the math here at all. I calculate that your 2.94x10^9 watts
per kg force transposes to 1.47x10^11watts per 50 kg force, not 10 KW per
50 kg. Please correct my erroneous thinking about this. I seriously can't
get a grip on your physics or math here at all.

>
>  Reflections =  (2.94x10^9 W/kg)(50 kg)/(10,000 W) = 14.7 million times

Here, again-- I do not understand why you point this out, unless it has to
do with a generalized belief that the ratio never changes. 
Also-- the wavelength must surely be too long to even measure by that time. 

>
>before escaping the beam.  This is an incredible reflectivity, even for a
>closed chamber.  The energy requirement is based upon the high
>energy/momentum ratio for the photon.  

Is that ratio set in stone?

For this reason, the high energy
>requirement, it appears the projection of force, especially for levitation
>of mundane objects or craft, requires other than a photonic beam or
>standing wave explanation, if conventional physics is applied, and the
>photons are internally generated.  It takes too much energy to get enough
>momentum involved.  Regardless of any forces applied by plate charge
>differences, the conservation of momentum law and the fixed energy/momentum
>ratio kills the prospect of more net force. 

Why is it fixed? Are there any experiments where it is proven to be fixed?

 This problem might handily be
>overcome if momentum can be stolen from the ZPE sea, by stealing
>mass-energy for example.

Is that necessary? We know that the ratio MUST change if we change one or
the other terms. I remember an electronics teacher in college who swore up
and down that I was crazy for supposing that the voltage on a capacitor
would change [go up] if I merely pulled the plates apart. What I saw
however, was my own eureka moment when I manipulated the capacitance
formula. It turned out I was correct and the teacher, who had arrogantly
dismissed me, was wrong. Of course the voltage had to go up. I was putting
work into the system. But I always remember that incident as special
because it was one of those key moments when my intuitive validity was
solidly verified. ( Unfortunately the teacher never forgave me. Oops,
sorry-- I'm babbling.)

Photon momentum, mc = E/c   where E is the Photon Energy and c is the
velocity of light, and I guess that is standard physics in all parts of the
universe.. However-- If c drops, E/c then becomes a larger number. E/c is
photon momentum-- so in this case-- the math is more basic than the 'law',
and the ratio does change.

Without telling me to go back to my old teacher, can you tell me where I
have erred?  :-))

Thanks IA.

With all respects,
Colin Quinney
(Masochist): 
( I know I am going up against a MASTER here..  :-))

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb  7 02:40:45 1999
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Neutrino Acrobatics and the Biefield-Brown Effect
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 03:34:47 -0700
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While Horace is busily corrupting a related thread,turning resonant cavities
into Planck black-body radiators.  :-)

The speed-of-light neutrino with a rest mass/energy of about 0.5 ev, when
first released from a reaction should have a relativistic mass, Mrel =
[(E/Eo)+1] = Mo/(1-v^2/c^2)^1/2. So on the first "billiard ball" collision
it should lose some mass/energy:

dMrel = [(dE/Eo)+1] = dMo/(1-v^2/c^2)^1/2.

This should continue until a "ground state" relativistic mass , Mrel is
reached with the neutrino still "rattling around" with a velocity very close
to c.

Since the electrons in a gas, liquid, or solid
have a velocity on the order of 2.18E6 meters/second (or more) this must be
the lowest possible velocity that the neutrinos can attain
in passing through matter.

OTOH, applying electric fields to matter can get the electrons or ions up to
much higher velocities, which suggests that the neutrinos will then go back
up to a higher relativistic mass after collisions with them.

With a rest mass of 0.5 ev which is one millionth the mass of the electron
(9.1E-37 kg)
they're not going to cause much aerodynamic drag on the back of the
Biefield-Brown "disc",even if there were 2.7E25 of them per cubic meter at
"STP", and their moderated mass was 27 ev.

But, if they are somewhat susceptible to Electric fields then with a 2:1
Neutrino (-) to antineutrino (+) ratio the Mrel goes up rapidly in
proportion to the voltage on the capacitor plates, and there should be a net
force exerted on the plate as reported for the Biefield-Brown Effect.

Regards,   Frederick

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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
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Subject: Re: Farnsworth Fusor effort at EarthTech - BLP
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Tom said,
<snip>
>
>As far as I know, there's nothing in Mills' published work or in any of the
>BlackLight Power website material to indicate that Mills has ever pursued
any
>nuclear reactions, except for that one old electrolytic heavy water
experiment
>that yielded tritium.
>
>You referenced pages 494-495 in the Sept. 1996 edition of Mills' book.  I
have
>the November 1995 edition, and there's a single tritium experiment on pages
>471-473.  The title of that section is "Heavy Water Tritium Experiment."
>There is one figure, showing the increase in tritium over about three
weeks,
>and there are seven References at the end of the section.  Does that sound
>like the same section?
>
>I can think of several reasons why Mills apparently never pursued any
nuclear
>reactions any further.  One of them is safety.  I'd be awfully nervous
about
>running deuterium in a cell like Vince Cockeram's.  Gaseous tritium isn't
good
>for one's health if anything breaks.  Furthermore, a high-temperature gas-
>phase cell like Vince's might produce deuterinos fairly far down the
quantum
>ladder, and those deuterinos might produce unhealthy levels of stuff other
>than tritium, e.g., gammas and neutrons.  In the context of Mills' views
about
>the solar corona, Mills has said that hydrinos (and presumably deuterinos)
can
>flare up.  If I were in Vince's shoes, I'd be strongly inclined to leave
>deuterium work to researchers like Tom Claytor who have access to safe
>facilities.


As I read Mills, the compelling reason why he distances himself from nuclear
processes is commercial. His original marketing target was power utilities,
with the vision of retrofitting existing boilers with megawatt BLP reactors
running on water and producing zero toxic byproducts. When the CEO is about
to sign, he wanted no raised eyebrows or hesitation by reason of association
with the "discredited" field of cold fusion, nor any interference by DoE,
EPA, NRC, etc. Now it seems that hydrino hydrides are readily produced, and
are not chemically inert. I am not enough of a chemist to anticipate the
possible toxicity of HHCs with high binding energies.

Mills has been uncomfortable with any reference to him in IE, however
respectful or praising the article, including my forthcoming review in IE
#24.

It's just "chemistry". If you look at his Australian patent, published a
while back in IE, he refers to possible nuclear reactions among shrunken
deuterium atoms by virtue of the smaller size. He refers to this as Columbic
Annihilation Fusion.

Mills' view of stars is that most of the output is due to BLP processes, not
the carbon cycle or similar fusion reactions. Thus the missing neutrino
flux; it isn't being generated. Hydrinos can catalyze hydrinos to lower
states, ending in the dark matter. What starts this chain is not clear,
since it would seem that atomic hydrogen and appropriate catalysts would be
quite scarce in the sun. It's just chemistry?

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb  7 07:46:29 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Biefield-Brown Effect and standing waves
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I regret being extremely short on time or I would attempt to tailor the
following quoted post to the Biefield-Brown discussion.  Below is an old
vortex post of mine from a discussion of solar sails and/or photon rockets,
which is really all about the same issue, and the basis of my earlier
response.  The discussion below was specifically aimed at the conservation
of energy aspect, while I think your misunderstanding is based upon
suspending Newton's 3rd law.  If standard physics applies to a levitator
hovering in a gravitational field due to photon interaction, then there
must be an equal but opposite reaction to the photon, thus momentum is
conserved.  It is the conservation of momentum that is the key.  A photon
can not impart more momentum than it has, no matter how complex the actual
interaction.   (If a photon reflects, though, it can impart double its
momentum. It can be viewed as two photons though, an incoming and outbound.
Im fact, my earlier derived numbers may be off by a factor of 2 for this
reason, but the basic conclusion is unaffected.  Also, the energy must be
carried in one direction or the other.)  Of course non-conventional physics
could be invoked, but that is outside the scope of my response.

Once conservation of momentum is invoked, the other part of understanding
the limits of photon carried force at a distance is deriving the fact that
the momentum/energy ratio of the photon is fixed, thus the amount of energy
per unit of momentum imparted by a photon is *independent of the
wavelength* of the photon.   For this reason wavelength shifts (as well as
plate charge, etc.) are not significant with regard to the momentum/energy
relationship.

I chose 50 kg as a reasonable mass to be able to generate 10 kw. However, P
= 2.94x10^9 watts per kg thrust remains constant, so a 1 g object still
requires a 2.94x10^6 watt beam to support itself in a 1 g environment, so
there still is a problem of either high energy production or high
reflectivity to surmount.

The derivation of the basis of the above conclusions, included below,
applies to the non-relativistic regime present in the Biefield-Brown
experiment, because the velocity of the hovering object is not
relativistic.  In fact, it is approximately zero.  However, even at
relativistic velocities the same conclusions can be derived.  Here is the
detailed (but non-relativistic) derivation of the basis of my position:

----------------------------------------------------------------
The following is in regard to solar sails.

Some starting point equations relating to photons and waves:


   E = h nu   (Planck)             (1)

   E = m c^2   (Einstein)          (2)

   lambda = c/nu                    (3)

   p = E/c = (h)(nu)/c = h/lambda    (4)

Assume the sail is 100 percent black, albedo zero.  If photons are absorbed
at rate n photons per second for time t, then the total reaction force is
given by:

   F = (n p)/t                      (5)

and the power absorbed by the sail is given by:

   P = (E n)/t                       (6)

It is of interest the amount of energy absorbed by the sail per unit of
momentum supplied to the rocket is obtained by substituting (4) into E/p:

   E/p = E/(E/c) = c               (7)

Notice that the amount of energy per unit of momentum imparted to the sail
is *independent of the wavelength* of the photon.  In fact, it is
independent of anything else, as it is constant.  I suppose this is self
evident, especially considering equation (4), but it is  important to the
basic issues at hand.  As energy per photon goes up, so does momentum, and
vice versa. They have a linear relationship.

To determine the power absorbed by the sail per unit of thrust we devide
(6) by (5) to obtain:

   P/F = (n E)/(n p) = E/p      (8)

but from (7) E/p = c, so:

   P/F = c                     (9)

and we immediately see:

   P = c F                     (10)

We know that one kg-force is equalto 9.807 newtons, or 9.807 kg-m/s^2.  So
we now see that to produce thrust using photons of any energy we need the
sail to absorb a photonic power per kg of thrust of at least:

   P = (3x10^8 m/s)(9.807 kg-m/s^2) = 2.94x10^9 kg-m^2/s^3         (11)

   P = 2.94x10^9 watts                 (12)

This is why photonic rockets are not so great.  It's the same process in
reverse, as is the case where photons are reflected from the sail.

Unilike particles, the photons leave the sun (or other light source,like a
laser) with constant velocity c, yet arrive at the moving sail at the same
velocity c, regardless of the sail's velocity.  If non-zero rest mass
particles did this it would be obvious that free energy were gained somehow
by the reacting particles accelerating between the time launched and the
time absorbed by the sail. If, with expenditure of a fixed amount of
energy, you can add the same momentum to a departing mass being at any
velocity, independent of the energy initially supplied, you have free
energy.

The photon arrives at the same velocity regardless of the energy cost of
emitting it.  It would appear on the surface, when looked at as a particle,
to have the requisite characteristics for providing free energy.  However,
nature extracts her toll even with the photon, and even at low velocities,
though the effect is easier to understand when considered in context of
near light speed events.  The energy toll is extracted by nature in the
form of the red shift, a result of the Doppler effect.  The amount of
change in wavelength of light, delta lambda, is proportional to the ratio
of Vr/c, where Vr is the recession speed of the departing sail relative to
the light source, the rate at which it departs.  If lambda0 is the
wavelength emitted, and lambda is the wavelength absorbed at the sail then:

   lambda0 = lambda + (delta lambda)               (13)

   (delta labda)/lambda0 = Vr/c.                    (14)

So:

    (delta lambada) = (lambda0)(Vr)/c              (15)

As the recession velocity increases, lambda decreases.  Equation (4)
provides in general:

   (p)(lambda) = h                     (4)

and, substituting (15) into (13):

   lambda = lambda0 - (lambda0)(Vr/c)             (16)

If p0 is the energy imparted when Vr is zero, and p1 is the energy imparted
at Vr, we have:

    (p0)(lambda0) = h             (17)

and:

    (p1)(lambda0 - (lambda0)(Vr/c)) = h             (18)

so:

    p1 = (1-Vr/c)P0             (19)

and we can see that p1 is diminsihed as Vr increases. Further the amount
deltap is diminished is given by:

    deltap = p1 - p0 = (1-Vr/c)P0 - p0             (20)

    deltap = (-Vr/c)p0             (21)

so the incrmental momentum, mother natures' tax, is proportional to the
velocity of recession.  Since E is proportional to p, the same can be said
of deltaE.  Energy is conserved.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
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On Sun, 7 Feb 1999 07:52:19 -0500, Mike Carrell wrote:
[snip]
>states, ending in the dark matter. What starts this chain is not clear,
>since it would seem that atomic hydrogen and appropriate catalysts would be
>quite scarce in the sun. It's just chemistry?

Three hydrogen atoms colliding are supposed to be able to result in a
hydrino and two ionised hydrogen atoms. After which pairs of hydrinos
undergo disproportionation, resulting in one "deeper" hydrino, and one
ion, which can later recombine to an atom in the "normal" ground state,
reducing the number of hydrinos by one.
>
>Mike Carrell

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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Robin said:


>On Sun, 7 Feb 1999 07:52:19 -0500, Mike Carrell wrote:
>[snip]
>>states, ending in the dark matter. What starts this chain is not clear,
>>since it would seem that atomic hydrogen and appropriate catalysts would
be
>>quite scarce in the sun. It's just chemistry?
>
>Three hydrogen atoms colliding are supposed to be able to result in a
>hydrino and two ionized hydrogen atoms. After which pairs of hydrinos
>undergo disproportionation, resulting in one "deeper" hydrino, and one
>ion, which can later recombine to an atom in the "normal" ground state,
>reducing the number of hydrinos by one.


Are you quite sure? Reference in Mills' work? If this is true, then hydrinos
should be produced in profusion in any atomic hydrogen gas, without the K+
catalyst, and might have been observed before. Of course I'm not sure who
has looked closely at a plasma torch, and that is one of Mills' reactor
configurations.

It's true that the critical energy hole of 27.2 eV is twice the binding
energy of atomic hydrogen, 13.6 eV. Mills notes that one reason for
operating the gas phase reactor at low pressure is to limit the
recombination of Hs to H2 before the Hs encounter K+s. Hydrinos
autocatalyze, one going lower, the other ionized. It seems there must be
other conditions in the Sun to generate hydrinos besides the BLP K+,K+,H
reaction. It seems reasonable to assume that Mills' book does not exhaust
this subject.

Regards, Mike Carrell




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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
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Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 08:59:41 GMT
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On Sun, 7 Feb 1999 21:49:16 -0500, Mike Carrell wrote:

>Robin said:
[snip]
>>Three hydrogen atoms colliding are supposed to be able to result in a
>>hydrino and two ionized hydrogen atoms. After which pairs of hydrinos
>>undergo disproportionation, resulting in one "deeper" hydrino, and one
>>ion, which can later recombine to an atom in the "normal" ground state,
>>reducing the number of hydrinos by one.
>
>
>Are you quite sure? Reference in Mills' work? If this is true, then hydrinos

Paragraph at top of page 141 in his book, and equations 5.33 - 5.35.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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Festival Science Frontieres (16th edition) took place January 27-31 1999
in Cavaillon (South of France). Definitely a good year. Record breaking
attendance (800 seats big hall always full) and unprecedented media
coverage, with all TV networks coming to visit. 

Science Frontieres’ specifics : it’s open to a large audience (whence
the name « festival ») and it’s also a meeting place for conventional
and alternative scientists, with lots of tolerance and good vibes on
both side. Presenting controversial or alternative ideas in science is
only one of the festival’s goals (the others are assessing the impact of
recent scientific advances, and discussing present planetary problems -
with a strong accent on environment / ecology).

Now, here is a brief report of events concerning this list’s topics.

Over-unity energy and cold fusion were featured for the first time at
the festival and were an « instant hit » !

Jean-Louis Naudin demonstrated the SMOT and a few small motors, gave a
SMOT-building course and generally impressed everybody with his precise,
unassuming and no-BS approach.

Physicist Patrick Cornille presented his theoretical views on «
stimulated forces », which might account for over-unity. Cornille has a
regular scientific job with state-funded CEA (Atomic Energy Commission),
but his theoretical and experimental work on non-conventional
electromagnetics is a personal pursuit. As he’s nearing retirement age,
he can be expected to work full-time on over-unity in the years to come,
and his deep knowledge of physics (as witnessed by his contributions to
Szames’ book - see below) will surely be a big asset.

Naudin and Cornille seemed highly confident in the future. They recently
founded a company, Advanced Electromagnetic Systems, that will soon have
its own web page, and Cornille has a huge theoretical paper to be
published in a mathematical physics journal. Stay in tune...

Jean-Paul Biberian was a big success too. His brand of WoodyAllenesque
humor had the audience rolling in laughter. His contract for cold fusion
experiments with the Atomic Energy Commission will end in a few months,
he’s had many positive, if small scale, results, he has original ideas
for new techniques, so he’s definitely hooked and wants to keep on
researching CF. Next year he might return to the USA, if work
opportunities permit. Don’t miss him if he’s lecturing somewhere !

Biberian was also seen discussing into the wee hours with Science
Frontieres’ favorite maverick physicist, Joel Sternheimer, who got a «
scientist of the year » prize at the end of the festival. Sternheimer
has a patent on a quite revolutionary technology - sound frequencies and
melodies that stimulate or inhibit the synthesis of specific proteins,
with medical and agricultural applications. As a mathematical physicist,
Sternheimer is developing a new twist in quantum theory, where the
particle waves are not simply sinusoidal, as in classical QM, but have
harmonics too. So he thinks that in CF hydrogen electrons might jump to
a lower harmonic, thus achieving fractional quantum states (a la Mills
or Vigier), getting closer to the nucleus and gaining energy.

Alexandre Szames presented his big fat book (500 pages, 3 years work) on
the Biefeld-Brown effect. This 29 years old writer has an impressive
scientific culture (puts me to shame, easily !) and did fascinating
experimental work with help from Naudin and Cornille. They conclude
Biefeld-Brown effect is NOT antigravity, but a crucial proof of the
existence of aether (thus invalidating general relativity) and
stimulated forces, opening the way to over-unity and new propulsion
concepts. Just after the festival Szames flew to USA to participate in
NASA’s latest seminar on breakthrough propulsion in Albuquerque. I
expect some news from him when he returns.

Lastly, another sign that O/U or FE research is gaining ground in France
: we finally have a French language web site on these topics, thanks to
Jean and Bernadette Soares and their association, Quant’Homme. For years
they did a wonderful job translating articles and infos, and now they
have a site full of links and references, at
http://multimania.com/quanthomme

Bye for now. Best regards to all !

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  8 10:34:24 1999
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<td width=360><font size=2><b>patanie</b> &lt;<A HREF="http://www.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=ps]/jump/mailto:patanie my-dejanews.com">patanie@my-dejanews.com</a>&gt;</font></td>
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<pre>Hi,

Any idea howcome Marc Millis and the <B>NASA</B> engaged in such topics such as
below?

Cordially yours,

Claude

Advanced Field <B>Propulsion</B> Physics

34th AIAA / ASME / SAE / ASEE Joint <B>Propulsion</B> Conference and Exhibit, July
13-15, 1998, Cleveland, Ohio.

Special Session on <B>Breakthrough</B> <B>Propulsion</B> Physics coordinated by

Marc G. Millis
Lead, <B>NASA</B> <B>Breakthrough</B> <B>Propulsion</B> Physics Program
<B>NASA</B> Lewis Research Center
21000 Brookpark Road, MS 60-4
Cleveland, OH 44135
Phone  216/977-7535
Fax       216/977-7545
<A HREF="http://www.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=ps]/profile.xp?author=Marc.G.Millis LeRC.NASA.gov&ST=PS">Marc.G.Millis@LeRC.<B>NASA</B>.gov</A>



Papers were invited that present revolutionary, new, concepts that could
enable practical, timely and affordable interstellar travel. Authors should
discuss how to propel a vehicle without rockets or beamed power, how to
reach light speed or greater, or how to produce the energy required to
propel such vehicles. Mathematical analysis and/or empirical evidence
should be used to support the concepts. Topics include: fundamental physics
of motion, forces and energy exchange; vacuum physics; interactions between
electro-magnetism, inertia, gravity and spacetime.



Following papers are of interest:

1.  Dr. Vesselin Petkov (Concordia Univ., Montreal, 1997)  On the Equivalence
of Inertial  and Gravitational Mass.  (petkov1.pdf)  Abstract: The
equivalence of inertial and (passive) gravitational mass of a body can be
naturally explained if it is assumed that both masses have the same origin -
the  electric self-force acting upon each non-inertial elementary charged
particle of the  body. The main consequences of this hypothesis are: (i) both
inertial and gravitational  mass are of entirely electromagnetic nature; (ii)
as there is no mass, but only charges,	it is these charges that represent a
body's active gravitational mass, and (iii) they  cause the anisotropy in the
speed of electromagnetic interaction in its vicinity which  turns out to be
the very curvature of space-time. The proposed hypothesis makes an
experimental test possible and opens up the possibility of (at least partly)
controlling  inertia and gravitation even if one considers the mass not to be
entirely  electromagnetic (as presently believed).


  Dr. Vesselin Petkov (Concordia Univ., Montreal)  On the Possibility of a
<B>Propulsion</B> 2.  Drive Creation Through a Local Manipulation of Spacetime
Geometry. AIAA-98-3142.  (petkov2.pdf)	Abstract: Since the shape of a free
body's worldline is determined by the geometry of  spacetime a local change
of spacetime geometry will affect a body's worldline, i.e. a  body's state of
motion. The exploration of this possibility constitutes a radiacally new
approach to the idea of how a body can be propelled: instead of applying a
force to the  body itself, the geometry of spacetime is subjected to a local
manipulation which in  turn results in the body's motion.



3.  Dr. Bernhard Haisch (Lockheed Martin, Palo Alto, CA)  Advances in the
Proposed  Electromagnetic Zero-Point Field Theory of Inertia. AIAA-98-3143.
(zpf_ipc.pdf)  Abstract: A <B>NASA</B>-funded research effort has been underway at
the Lockheed Martin  Advanced Technology Center in Palo Alto and at
California State University in Long Beach  to develop and test a recently
published theory that Newton's equation of motion can be  derived from
Maxwell's equations of electrodynamics as applied to the zero-point field
(ZPE) of the quantum vacuum. In this ZPE-inertia theory, mass is postulated
to be not an  intrinsic property of matter but rather a kind of
electromagnetic drag force (which  temporarily is a place holder for a more
general vacuum quantum fields reaction effect)	that proves to be
acceleration dependent by virtue of the spectral characteristics of  the ZPE.
The theory proposes that interactions between the ZPE and matter take place
at  the level of quarks and electrons, hence would account for the mass of a
composite  neutral particle such as the neutron. An effort to generalize the
exploratory study of  Haisch, Rueda and Puthoff (1994) into a proper
relativistic formulation has been  succesful. Moreover the principle of
equivalence implies that in this view gravitation  would also be an effect
originated in the quantum vacuum along the lines proposed by  Sakharov
(1968). With regard to exotic <B>propulsion</B> we can definitively rule out one
speculatively hypothesized mechanism: matter possessing negative inertial
mass, a  concept originated by Bondi (1957) is shown to be logically
impossible. On the other  hand, the linked ZPE-inertia and ZPE-gravity
concepts open the conceptual possibility of  manipulation of inertia and
gravitation, since both are postulated to be vacuum  phenomena. It is hoped
that this will someday translate into actual technological  potential,
especially with respect to spacecraft <B>propulsion</B> and future interstellar
travel capability. A key question is whether the proposed ZPE-matter
interactions  generating the phenomenon of mass might involve one or more
resonances. This is  presently under investigation.  Compare:  Vigier, J.-P.
(1995) Derivation of inertial forces from the  Einstein-de-Broglie-Bohm
causal stochastic interpretation of quantum mechanics. Found.  Phys. 25(10),
pp. 1461-1494.

  Abstract: The physical origin of inertial forces is shown to be a
consequence of the  local interaction of Dirac's real covariant ether model
with accelerated micro-objects,  considered as real extended particle-like
solitons, piloted by surrounding subluminal  real wave fields packets. Their
explicit form results from the application of local  inertial Lorentz
transformations to the particles submitted to noninertial  velocity-dependent
accelerations, i.e. constitute a natural extension of Lorentz's
interpretation of restricted relativity. Indeed, Dirac's real physical
covariant ether  model implies inertial forces if one considers the real
accelerated noninertial motions  of general relativity, defined within the
absolute local inertial frames associated with	the observed local isotropy
of the 2,7° K background microwave radiation. Inertia thus  appears as a
necessary consequence of the real particle motions described by the  E.d.B.B.
formalism of quantum mechanics.



4.  Dr. Robert Forward (Forward Unlimited)  Apparent Method for Extraction of
<B>Propulsion</B>  Energy from the Vacuum. AIAA-98-3140.  Abstract: In 1983, Ambjorn
and Wolfram (Annals Physics, Vol. 147, pp. 1-32) published  plots of the
energy density of the quantum electromagnetic fluctuations in a volume of
vacuum bounded by perfectly conducting walls in the shape of a rectangular
cavity of  dimensions a1, a2, and a3, as a function of the ratios a2/a1 and
a3/a1. Portions of  these plots are double-valued, in that they allow
rectangular cavities with the same  value of a2/a1, but different values of
a3/a1, to have the same energy density and total  energy. Using these
double-valued regions of the plots, I show that it is possible to  define a
&quot;Casimir Vacuum Energy Extraction Cycle&quot; which apparently would allow for the
 endless extraction of energy from the vacuum in the Casimir cavity by cyclic
 manipulation of the Casimir cavity dimensions. Such a device would allow for
the onboard  generation of <B>propulsion</B> energy anywhere in space from an energy
source that is	literally massless.


  H. D. Froning, Jr. (Flight Unlimited, Flagstaff, AZ), Dr. Terence W.
Barrett (BSEI, 5.  Vienna, VA), G.  D. Hathaway (Hathaway Consulting,
Toronto, Canada)  Preliminary  Experiments Involving: Specially Conditioned
EM Radiation, Matter, Spacetime Metric.  AIAA-98-3138.


  Dr. Harry I. Ringermacher (General Electric, Schenectady, NY), Dr. Brice
Cassenti (UTRC, 6.  E. Hartford, CT)  Experimental Verification of a
Relativistic Field Theory Based on an  Electrodynamic Connection.
AIAA-98-3136.


  Dr. John E. Brandenburg (RSI, Lanham, MD), J. F. Kline  Application of the
7.  Gravity-Electro-Magnetism Unification Theory to the Problem of Controlled
Gravity:  Theory and Experiment. AIAA-98-3137.


  Dr. David A. Noever, Ronald Koczor (<B>NASA</B> MSFC, ES76 Space Sciences Lab,
Huntsville, AL), 8.  Rick Roberson (Tomorrow Tools, Huntsville, AL)
Superconductor-Mediated Modification of  Gravity? AC Motor Experiments with
Bulk YBCO Disks in Rotating Magnetic Fields.  AIAA-98-3139.  Abstract: We
have previously reported [Physica C: 281 (1997) 260-267] results using a
high precision gravimeter to probe local gravity changes in the neighborhood
of large  bulk-processed high-temperature superconductors. Podekletnov, et al
[Podekletnov, E. and  Nieminen, R (1992) A Possibility of Gravitational Force
Shielding by Bulk YBa2Cu3O7x  Superconductor, Physica C, C203:441-444] have
indicated that rotating AC fields play an  essential role in their observed
distortion of combined gravity and barometric pressure	readings. We report
experiments on large (15 cm diameter) bulk YBCO ceramic  superconductors
placed in the core of  a three-phase, AC motor stator. The applied  rotating
field  produces up to a 12,000 revolutions per minute magnetic field. The
field  intensity decays rapidly from the maximum at the outer diameter of the
superconducting  disk (&lt;60 Gauss) to the center (&lt;10 Gauss). This
configuration was applied with and  without a permanent DC magnetic field
levitating the superconducting disk, with  corresponding gravity readings
indicating an apparent increase in observed gravity of	less than 1x10^-6
cm/s^2, measured above the superconductor.  No effect of the rotating
magnetic field or thermal environment on the gravimeter readings or on
rotating the  superconducting disk was noted within the high precision of the
observation.  Implications for <B>propulsion</B> initiatives and power storage
flywheel technologies for high	temperature superconductors will be discussed
for various spacecraft and satellite  applications.  Note: &quot;Giorgio Fontana
at the University of Trento (Italy) believes that a kind of  superconductor
junction might emit extremely high frequency gravitational radiation,
similarly to what we already know that a kind of semiconductor junction emits
light.	Please see his preprint on either his university's web site or the
LANL archive  (gr-qc/9804069). This paper gives a highly speculative but
plausible explanation for  Podkletnov's observation of a vertically pointing,
collimated, toroidal projection of  weight reduction.&quot; (Pete Skeggs)





Related Links:

Introduction to Space Drives

Topology enters Mathematics

Adventures in Applied Topology

Advanced Electromagnetism Book

Advances in Applied Clifford Algebras (2)

David Bohm and the Implicate Order

De Broglie-Bohm Quantum Mechanics

Aharonov-Bohm Scattering of Neutral Atoms (2)

Workshop on Superluminal (?) Velocities

Apeiron - Journal of Physics and Astronomy

Hadronic Journal - Institute for Basic Research

Galilean Electrodynamics Journal Homepage

Causality and Locality in Modern Physics and Astronomy

Sympathetic Vibratory Physics - It's a Musical Universe (2)

Microlocal Methods in Geometric Analysis and Mathematical Physics

International Workshop on Antimatter Gravity and Antihydrogen Spectroscopy

Intersociety Energy Conversion Engineering Conference (IECEC)

Students for the Exploration and Development of Space (SEDS) (2)



Dr. Harold Aspden's Homepage

Prof. Dr. John Baez's Homepage

Dr. Patrick Bailey's Institute for New Energy

&lt;big
macher (General Electric, Schenectady, NY), Dr. Brice Cassenti (UTRC,

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From: Dieter Britz <db kemi.aau.dk>
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Subject: Book Update & reviews (Repeat?)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:03:08 +0100
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About a week or so ago, I posted the stuff below, but I have an idea
it never made it out of Denmark, so I am posting it again here. If it
is indeed a repeat, sorry. But then y'all, like me, have got good at
skipping past stuff you don't want to read. Of which there is a lot
here. So here goes:
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Abstracts and review of:  Hideo Kozima "Discovery of the Cold Fusion
Phenomenon" and Tadahiko Mizuno, "Nuclear Transmutation: The Reality of
Cold Fusion".
Copyright 1999, Dieter Britz.

I'll deviate from my practise these days of not posting updates here,
as I used to do, and will post my latest updates of the Books file,
having just read the two Japanese books below. Here are the abstracts
that went into the file:

#
Kozima Hideo; "Discovery of the Cold Fusion Phenomenon".
Subtitle: "Development of Solid State-Nuclear Physics and the Energy Crisis
in the 21st Century".
Ohtake Shuppan Inc., Tokyo, 1998. 370 pp. ISBN 4-87186-044-2
Translation and partial revision of the earlier Japanese book of the same
title, Ohtake Shuppan Inc., Tokyo 1997.
** Kozima is associated in the cold fusion area with his TNCF (trapped neutron
catalyzed fusion) theory, and this book focusses on the theory.  Kozima was
one of the first to attempt a replication of the FPH paper, immediately he
received a telefaxed preprint of the FPH89 and the Jones group's paper in
1989. He was fortunate also to get results at the first attempt, in the form
of neutrons. He soon realised that the process(es) are/were stochastic, and
therefore difficult to repeat at will. The early history, starting with Paneth
& Peters in 1926, is given, then moving on to Fleischmann and Pons and on from
there. The major groups and their findings/claims are gone through, problem
areas are identified, such as the "riddles of cold fusion", summarised
succintly at the end of chapter 9. Then in chapter 11, TNCF is outlined and
all the riddles treated with the theory.  A single parameter, the density of
trapped neutrons in the reaction space, is required to quantitatively account
for a large number of observations. The neutrons come initially from cosmic
infall, later from the reactions leading on from the initial reactions of
neutrons with various species. There is at last a table of 53 cases, where
TNCF explains observations reasonably well. Other proposed theories are then
also described, critically. There are hundreds of references including close
to 100 by the author himself.
#
Mizuno Tadahiko; "Nuclear Transmutation: The Reality of Cold Fusion".
Translation and introduction by Jed Rothwell.
Infinite Energy Press, Concord, NH, USA, 1998. 151 pp. ISBN 1-892925-00-1.
Original Japanese edition, same title, Kogakusha, 1997, ISBN 4-87593-214-6.
** Mizuno is known from a number of publications of his work in cold fusion at
Hokkaido University. He was well equipped to do this, being a physicist by
training, who later moved into electrochemistry (working with Bockris for a
time) specialising in metal hydrides. This book is his personal story of cold
fusion, providing the story behind the publications, with all the setbacks,
false starts, disappointments, discomfort and hard work, going into details of
the preparations, which sometimes took a year. It happens that in the author's
case, he even observed what, with hindsight, might have been cold fusion, as
early as 1978, but dismissed it at the time. Then in 1981, he detected a
brief episode of x-ray emissions from titanium loaded with deuterium; this too
was forgotten until much later. Mizuno has loaded metals with ion beams and by
electrolysis, and is clearly aware of errors, taking extreme care to eliminate
them. He has observed excess heat, x-rays and tritium. He does advance some
theory, but this is not his strong point; he himself appears to favour the
theory of the Italian, Conte, for explaining cold fusion. Generally, Mizuno
tends towards reactions with heavier nuclei, leading to transmutation. There
is a short bibliography and a time-line history of the field, up to 1999 (a
conference).
#


Some additional remarks:

It is interesting (to me) to compare the two books. Kozima's is
sharply focussed, being a long outline of how his TNCF theory fits
most of the observations, which are first listed in detail, followed
by the problems (riddles) they throw up. These are then solved by the
application of TNCF, all by the adjustment of a single parameter
(different in the different cases).

Mizuno's book, on the other hand, is his personal story. He too got
going on a replication, on about the same day he heard about the F&P
announcement.  He realised that as a metals hydride researcher, he had
been doing pretty well what F&P had done, but had not looked for signs
of fusion. He then recalled those mysterious instances of when he may
have made such observations but had dismissed them. The story is
indeed fascinating; you don't get this sort of information from
reading scientific papers. I was impressed, right at the start of the
book, by his account of the serious disagreements he had with Bockris;
you have to be strong as a postdoc to stand up to Bockris.

Both books are very persuasive in their different ways. Kozima
persuades by the seemingly universal applicability of TNCF; I did get
a slight feeling of unease, however, whether I was perhaps being
lulled into acceptance by the omission of problems with that. For
example, TNCF does not explain how all those nuclear products, most of
them highly energetic, get away without giving rise to a host of
secondaries. Kozima acknowledges the problem and is working on it. One
thing that gives one an "Aha!" is Kozima's suggestion of a reaction of
neutrons with 6Li; this immediately explains the sometime claim that
CNF works in LiOD electrolyte, but not in NaOD. Kozima is not
uncritical of others' work, although I wonder at his easy acceptance
of Kervran's nonsense - which seems to have a long history going back
to 1799, and that is another interesting aspect of Kozima's book. But
he does appear to make a good case for his theory. Mizuno persuades
simply because his straightness, and his competence and extreme care,
radiate from the book. He won't believe a result before he gets it
many times. One time, he writes, he didn't want to make a claim just
yet, because he had only done it 10 times. I am pretty sure he is not
joking. He knows his electrochemistry; for example, he used a
separator (glass frit) as a matter of course, as most electrochemists
would, but few CNF researchers have.  He also knows that this is where
most of the ohmic heating in the cell will occur. All this sits well
with a fellow electrochemist.

The language in the two books is also interesting. Mizuno's was
translated by Jed Rothwell, who writes well when he wants to, and does
so here. On the whole, he gets the technical jargon right -
impressively so, for a layman. He is to be congratulated on this.
There are of course a few slip-ups, but they are minor. One thing that
comes to mind here is whether Rothwell, well known for his strong
opinions, might have written in stuff that Mizuno would not. I am
satisfied, after a bit of checking, that this is not the case, that
this is a reasonably faithful rendering of the original.  Kozima's
book was done by the man himself and the English was checked later by
someone else, I believe. There is a strong accent.  Oddly, this makes
the text quite punchy in its rather informal way, not at all awkward
to read.

Mizuno has an interesting explanation of the SRI explosion, different
from the official one, based on a forensic study (Grant et al), of
which I suspect Mizuno is not aware. I myself go more for Mizuno's
explanation: the recombiner was coated with water, the cell was jolted
as it was picked up, the water fell off the recombiner, which got hot
and sparked the reaction of the D2 and O2 in the head space, by this
time at about 30 atm. He also easily dismisses the 10^26 atmosphere
myth, knowing a thing or two about the mechanism of water reduction at
Pd. The actual pressure of deuterium within the Pd never exceeds about
10^5 atm. There is no need to argue about fugacity vs pressure.

We have been told often that the Japanese are running away with cold
fusion, that the USA is behind. Well, the Japanese seem to feel it's
the other way around, and Mizuno describes widespread skepticism in
Japan and even some skullduggery to prevent CNF research, heckling at
a conference, etc., and Kozima mentions publication problems in
Japanese journals.

All in all, a couple of interesting books, well worth getting and
reading.  I have been asked whether these books change my opinion of
CNF at all.  I am not sure about that; but that question, and reading
these books, crystallised in my mind the thought that the term
"skeptic" is not, and has not been, very appropriate to me. A better
term would be "agnostic"; I simply don't know, and I leave it at that.

-- Dieter Britz alias db kemi.aau.dk;  http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db





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check out the file fragment below.  Weeeeeeird!  Should we all buy stock
in Pinnacle Oil Int'l.  ?   :)

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1009922/0000944209-98-001577.txt

<snip>

THE SFD SURVEY SYSTEM
 
The SFD Survey System is an integrated modular electronic system comprised
of (i) Momentum's proprietary Stress Field Detector, and (ii) various
electronic subsystems proprietary to the Company, including a data
acquisition system incorporating a global positioning system ("GPS"). The
SFD Survey System operates on the theory that subsurface mechanical
stresses in rocks and pressure differentials in fluids produce above
ground, non-electromagnetic energy patterns (which the Company refers to
as a "stress field"), which patterns can be recognized by the Stress Field
Detector in the form of a digitized electronic signal (which the Company
refers to as a "wave form").  Each type of stress-influenced subsurface
condition exhibits a unique or "signature" wave form. The primary
component of the Stress Field Detector is the "SFD Sensor," a passive
transducer which captures or recognizes these energy patterns. 
 
In field operation, the SFD Survey System is flown over a pre-selected
survey area (either land or water) in an airplane. During each traverse,
the Company's data acquisition system continuously records the changing
wave forms from the underlying area captured by the Stress Field Sensor,
and the corresponding GPS coordinates associated with each such wave form. 
Simultaneously, all relevant information including original and processed
signal wave forms ("SFD Profiles") are displayed on a monitor in "real
time."  In addition, the SFD Survey System maintains a database of wave
forms collected in a given area, as well as creating a "library" of
signatures wave forms of known subsurface conditions for reference
purposes. The waveforms from the SFD Profiles are subsequently
interpreted, analyzed and compared against the signatures of known viable
oil and gas pools, which allows the Company to ascertain the character and
scope of the oil and gas accumulations indicated by the wave form being
examined. The Company uses the term "SFD Anomaly" to indicate a wave form
which varies from the norm and may be associated with hydrocarbon
deposits. The Stress Field Detector and its underlying scientific theories
are referred to as the "SFD Technology." 
 
                                       7
<PAGE>
 
As noted above, the Company has an exclusive License for the worldwide
utilization of the SFD Data for hydrocarbon exploration. Under the terms
of the License, Company personnel review and analyze the SFD Profiles for
what are termed "SFD Anomalies." SFD Anomalies are deviations and
irregularities in the SFD Profile which indicate a subsurface geological
deformity, the structural beginning of a subsurface field and/or a
hydrocarbon accumulation.  If the first traverse of a location generates
an SFD Anomaly, second and third traverses of the same location are
undertaken, with a different orientation or direction on the subsequent
flight or trip. Often these sequential traverses of the site will be
perpendicular to, or in the opposite direction from, the original line of
travel. In this way multiple SFD Profiles of the same site are generated,
from which a Company analyst can (i) verify the original anomaly, (ii)
further delineate the edges of the identified deformity, and (iii)
evaluate the viability of the prospect. 
 
THEORETICAL BASIS
 
Momentum does not possess any patents or other registered intellectual
property rights with respect to the SFD Technology, and Momentum does not
anticipate that if it were to apply for and receive patent protection,
that such patent protection would necessarily protect Momentum and the
Company from actual or potential competition. In addition, patent counsel
has advised Momentum and the Company (i) that a patent application would
inhere unwarranted disclosure risks; and (ii) that the Company's present
practices afford common law trade secret protection. For these and other
reasons, Momentum will not disclose a comprehensive explanation of the SFD
Technology.  However, a brief description of the theoretical basis and
reasoning which support the technology are set forth below. 
 
Abrupt variations in subsurface geology (called "geological deformities") 
cause stresses to develop in the surrounding rock materials. It is
generally known by geologists that when certain materials in the earth's
crust (such as single crystals) rupture due to stress, they generate
electromotive force as a release mechanism. A premise of the SFD
Technology is the theory that prior to such a rupture and the release of
electromotive force, there are constant sub- atomic interactions that
release non-electromagnetic energy. The SFD Technology is based on the
theory that: (i) both mechanical stress in rocks and the pressure
differentials in fluids produce non-electromagnetic energy patterns; (ii)
that the energy patterns reflect subsurface conditions which are
geological and may be hydraulic; and (iii) that the SFD Sensor, a passive
transducer which generates a quantum field, captures the interaction of
these energy patterns against the field. This interaction is registered by
the SFD Sensor as it is moved over major hydrocarbon accumulations, and
these energy patterns are converted into electrical signals that are
forwarded to the data acquisition system. 
 
Several observations support the theory that hydrocarbon accumulations
produce the observed energy patterns: 
 
  1. THE DETECTED ENERGY PATTERNS ARE NON-ELECTROMAGNETIC. Field tests
were conducted with the SFD Sensor both (i) while shielded from
electromagnetic forces, and (ii) without such shields. In both cases the
SFD Sensor registered no change. When the sensor was subjected to high
voltage static, alternating current and/or strong magnetic fields, it did
not indicate any changes in operation. In addition, the amplitude of the
signal captured by the SFD Sensor decreased as the speed of traverse of
the sensor was increased. This is essentially the opposite of what would
occur while measuring electromagnetic energy with a conventional
magnetometer. 
 
  2. THE DETECTED ENERGY PATTERNS ARE BOTH DYNAMIC AND DIRECTIONAL. In
field tests over known major faults the SFD Sensor captured energy
patterns which were dynamic while the sensor was stationary. In addition,
the "radiation"  field vectors of the energy patterns showed different
magnitudes during the traverse of a known deposit. 
 
  3. THE DETECTED ENERGY PATTERNS REFLECTED KNOWN HYDROCARBON
ACCUMULATIONS WHERE TECTONIC OR MECHANICAL STRESS SHOULD NOT BE A MAJOR
FACTOR. In field tests the SFD Sensor was shown to react to the following
known geological and hydraulic phenomenon: 
 
  . Mechanical forces due to tectonic activity in areas prone to
earthquakes;
 
  . Sediment loading resulting in faulting and dewatering of sediments;
and
 
  . Pressure differentials in the subsurface that are caused by different
    fluid densities.
 
                                       8
<PAGE>
 
SFD Sensor reactions were observed over faults caused by both tectonic and
sedimentary loading, in areas including the Texas and Louisiana Gulf
Coast, the San Andreas fault in California, the lower mainland of British
Columbia, and the foothills of Alberta. These observations tend to
indicate that the SFD Sensor reacts to mechanical stress in the
subsurface. However, in field observations the SFD Sensor was shown to
react to known, significant accumulations of hydrocarbons in the
subsurface where mechanical and tectonic stress would not be a major
factor. In these instances it appears that the SFD Technology reacts to
energy patterns caused by pressure differentials in the hydrocarbon
accumulations themselves. 
 
Experts who have reviewed the SFD Technology have suggested that a
possible explanation for these reactions over significant hydrocarbon
pools can be obtained by examining the effect a column of gas or oil has
on the pressure within a reservoir, and the resulting stress on the
surrounding shales.  The pressure vs. elevation graph below indicates the
effect changes in the relative density of subsurface fluids can have on
the pressure within a reservoir at any given depth. 
 
                                     LOGO
 
These pressure changes are due to buoyancy forces that develop whenever a
fluid of lower density (i.e., oil or gas) is emerged in a fluid of higher
density (water.) As the column of oil or gas becomes higher, representing
a thicker pay zone, the pressure differential caused by the buoyancy
forces of the hydrocarbons vs. the normal hydrostatic pressure of the
formation waters will increase. This increase in pressure should cause a
corresponding increase in the stress exerted on the rock that contains and
confines an oil or gas accumulation, because immediately outside the
boundaries of the oil or gas pool, the pressure with the reservoir will be
consistent with the normal hydrostatic pressure for the reservoir. This
known effect of buoyancy forces that develop due to hydrocarbon columns
lends strong support to the theory that pressure differentials in
hydrocarbon accumulations produce stress energy patterns which are
detected by the SFD Sensor. 
 
                                       9
<PAGE>
 
Based on field evaluations by both Company personnel and third parties,
management of the Company believes that the SFD Technology can reliably:
 
  . Detect from an altitude of 1,000 feet major oil and gas accumulations,
    sandstone or limestone/dolomite deposits at depths from 1,000 to at
    least 12,600 feet.
 
  . Detect and discriminate between a wide variety of subsurface 
    geological deformities, including anticlines, faults, fractures,
    unconformities including reefs, dome structures. Major known faults
    have been detected at an altitude of 10,000 feet.
 
  . Detect structures, faults and hydrocarbon accumulations in shallow
    waters up to 100 feet in depth. Tests have not yet been conducted over
    deeper waters.
 
  . Determine whether an identified geological trap contains gas, oil,
    water or no fluid at all.
 
  . Indicate whether a basin is shallow or deep.
 
  . Indicate the lateral extent and horizon of a reservoir, pool or reef.
 
  . Detect and identify large underground water beds, coal deposits and
    hard rock mineral deposits.
 
  . Indicate whether an identified hydrocarbon accumulation has sufficient
    porosity and permeability to be exploitable.

<snip>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  8 12:40:53 1999
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Barker's High Field Remediation Process
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To: Vortex

IF there is any merit to Barker's Remediation Process, whether due to high
fields and Neutrino"Oscillation" induction, or other,one should be able to
dip a thin wire or needle in a radioisotope compound and measure the
radiation count before and after a high voltage is applied.

OTOH, High voltages tend to attract Radon Daughters. :-)

Be that as it may, if the results are positive,then the Power Companies can
substitute metal tubing for the cables on their
high voltage transmission lines and pump the nuclear wastes through them.

That way by the time they get to Phoenix... :-)

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  8 15:34:55 1999
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
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Subject: Re: Farnsworth Fusor effort at EarthTech - BLP
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:38:48 -0500
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Tom Stolper wrote:
>You referenced pages 494-495 in the Sept. 1996 edition of Mills' book.  I have
>the November 1995 edition, and there's a single tritium experiment on pages
>471-473.  The title of that section is "Heavy Water Tritium Experiment."
>There is one figure, showing the increase in tritium over about three weeks,
>and there are seven References at the end of the section.  Does that sound
>like the same section?
-
This appears to be the same material.
-
>
>I can think of several reasons why Mills apparently never pursued any nuclear
>reactions any further.  One of them is safety.  I'd be awfully nervous about
>running deuterium in a cell like Vince Cockeram's.  Gaseous tritium isn't good
>for one's health if anything breaks.  Furthermore, a high-temperature gas-
>phase cell like Vince's might produce deuterinos fairly far down the quantum
>ladder, and those deuterinos might produce unhealthy levels of stuff other
>than tritium, e.g., gammas and neutrons.  In the context of Mills' views about
>the solar corona, Mills has said that hydrinos (and presumably deuterinos) can
>flare up.  If I were in Vince's shoes, I'd be strongly inclined to leave
>deuterium work to researchers like Tom Claytor who have access to safe
>facilities.
-
I agree with Michael Schaffer that the amount of tritium generated and or
other radiation is unlikely to be dangerous in Vince's discharge experiment.
Vince already has a plexiglas uv shield and a Geiger counter should be
sufficient to detect ionizing radiation before it reaches dangerous levels.
We used a small percentage of tritium gas in each gas discharge numeric
indicator
tube made at Burroughs, and some liquid crystal displays used much larger
amounts with phosphor as a backlight. I agree that breathing tritium would not
be
safe, but the quantity generated in Mills' experiment was quite small and the
same
would probably hold here as well. Still, caution is always in order when doing
something new and potentially energetic.
-
Regards,
-
George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
1924 US Hwy 22 East            Bound Brook NJ 08805

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  8 15:39:33 1999
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To: Vortex

Again assuming that Barker's High Field Remediation scheme works,A wire or
needle dipped in a Deuteride (deuterated wax or oil?)
and run up to a high voltage that will give several Million Volts/meter
Might give the possible reaction:

Neutrino + 1H2 ---> 2 H+ + e- + a Neutrino and an antineutrino plus a couple
of Mev for each proton, should make a decent neutrino detector or an
interesting ion generator.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  8 17:26:50 1999
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I'm going to turn on the vortex C annex for a semi-permanent Torsion
Physics discussion listserver.

To everyone:
If you are interested in replication of the Vacuum Spin Physics phenomena
being reported by researchers in Russia, then subscribe yourself to
vortexC: 

   Send a blank message to vortexC-L-request eskimo.com
   Place the word "subscribe" in the subject line of that message.

You will receive a welcome/instructions message in response.  Thereafter,
send your messages to the whole group by sending them to
vortexC-L eskimo.com

One Russian research group is currently subscribed.  The topic is the use
of tungsten wire as a torsion-field detector.  (Not so easy, since an
intense torsion field only causes 1PPM resistance changes.)


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  8 18:39:10 1999
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William Beaty wrote:
> 
> check out the file fragment below.  Weeeeeeird!  Should we all buy stock
> in Pinnacle Oil Int'l.  ?   :)

Gee, Bill, this sounds like a high-tech dousing apparatus!  Maybe in
their secret black box they have a willow twig fork mounted on a
position indicator??

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb  8 22:51:22 1999
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In a message dated 99-02-08 15:35:54 EST, you write:

> the SFD Sensor, a passive
>transducer which generates a quantum field, captures the interaction of
>these energy patterns against the field. 

So, is this sensor a "radionic" device?  Could it be used to detect and
quantify the "mortality frequencies" of disease organisms, or the vibratory
"signatures" of minerals, or the "auras" of people & plants?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  9 04:07:00 1999
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Dear Vo,

Supercurrent in solenoid.

If I have a superconducting solenoid with a current established in it, it
behaves like a permenent magnet. Next I shield a hi mu material and place
it in the coil and then unshield it. What happens?

The big question is whether the current drops when a high permeability
material is placed in the solenoid and suddenly unshielded and exposed to
the solenoid's field. CofE would have us believe that the current would
drop by i/mu. How is this possible? There can be no back emf because the
solenoid is shorted - what is the mechanism?

If the back emf is pinned to zero, that must mean that the rate of change
of flux is zero and there can be no increase in flux inside the solenoid.
Is another way of stating it. How does this go with experience?

The next paradoxical question is if the solenoid is pinned to zero volts,
an infinite flux could build up and have no effect on the solenoid. If the
solenoid can only sustain some maximum current, how is this every reached
if the back emf is pinned to zero?

Sorry for the lack of participation but I've been very busy and tend to
concentrate on one thing at a time and try to logically exhaust it. I'll
unpack more of what I am doing once I get over this crucial conceptual
step. I'm sure it can be done in electronics with negative dynamic
resistance devices (2 port) to simulate zero resistance but I have trouble
communicating the idea. This step first. By the way (BTW?) I believe the
mechanism is the same for heat and zpe.
Remi.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  9 05:11:48 1999
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Subject: Re: Supercurrent in solenoid.
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At 12:05 PM 2/9/99 +0000, Cornwall RO wrote:

>If I have a superconducting solenoid with a current established in it, it
>behaves like a permenent magnet. Next I shield a hi mu material and place
>it in the coil and then unshield it. What happens?

Morning, Remi!  Unshielding the mu-stuff in the solenoid reduces the
reluctance of the flux path (and increases the inductance of the solenoid),
with the result that the B (flux) increases.  Remember it's roughly equal
to mu*n*i/g where n is no of turns, i is current, and g is air-gap.
Placing the mu-stuff in the core has effectively reduced the air-gap for
that coil.  Because the flux thru the coil increases, there IS an emf
generated to oppose that increase.  That's how the current manages to drop
somewhat so that (1/2)L*i^2 before equals (1/2)L*i^2 after you put the
mu-stuff in there.

>There can be no back emf because the
>solenoid is shorted

Sure you can have an emf across a superconductor...it appears across the
inductance of the SC...and it produces a di/dt.



Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

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Morning Scott,

You must have responded to that message at about 6.00am your time! Have
you got a room booked in the hotel next door to the industrial units on
breaker lane? Or some wormhole portal from home to base that lets you
travel very very fast? Geez you're working hard!

Somehow have trouble seeing what you say. You're a canny chap and you've
got the experimental knowledge, you've probably done something like this
already...

I'm trying to reconcile what George Holz said about 6 weeks ago when one
unshorts a bifilar coil type arrangement (that is the secondary) and sees
the primary current drop. The only way to keep the condition that net
current is zero (while secondary shorted, BEFORE) and the zero just as it
unshorts (AFTER) is that the back emf just cancels the battery voltage.
The current then ramps up in the usual way.

I'm having trouble letting things go to the limit of the argument. In
superconducting case, my battery voltage becomes zero. My back emf becomes
what?. How do I stop (or lower) the current in a zero resistance loop by
imposition of magnetic field? Surely any back emf would induce and
infinite current in the other direction.

I can't really buy that reluctance stuff, it's dirty engineering tricks
and the fundamentals are always much better. The 1/2Li2 argument is
powerful but does it blinker one from the possibilities?

This is the crunch argument for any bifilar coil mechanism as far as I'm
concerned. If I can't break this argument, I think it can't be done by
that approach.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  9 06:00:06 1999
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Torsion physics now in use?????
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On Tue, 9 Feb 1999 UNIR2B1NM aol.com wrote:

> So, is this sensor a "radionic" device?  Could it be used to detect and
> quantify the "mortality frequencies" of disease organisms, or the vibratory
> "signatures" of minerals, or the "auras" of people & plants?

According to the Russians, "passive shape-effect" torsion devices include
pyramids, etc.  I think this means that "radionics" *IS* torsion physics
(especially the devices such as Pavlita's inventions).  I also would
suspect that dowsing, aura-vision, etc., *IS* torsion physics. 


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  9 07:12:13 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Subject: Re: Torsion physics now in use?????
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Bill Beaty wrote:

> According to the Russians, "passive shape-effect" torsion devices include
> pyramids, etc.  I think this means that "radionics" *IS* torsion physics
> (especially the devices such as Pavlita's inventions).  I also would
> suspect that dowsing, aura-vision, etc., *IS* torsion physics. 

I suppose this might include Sheldrake's 'morphic resonance.'

Ed Wall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  9 07:57:42 1999
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: Torsion, safety issues
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On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Ed Wall wrote:

> Bill Beaty wrote:
> > According to the Russians, "passive shape-effect" torsion devices include
> > pyramids, etc.  I think this means that "radionics" *IS* torsion physics
> > (especially the devices such as Pavlita's inventions).  I also would
> > suspect that dowsing, aura-vision, etc., *IS* torsion physics. 
> 
> I suppose this might include Sheldrake's 'morphic resonance.'

Yeah, see the first couple of paragraphs of:

  http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/tors/doc17.html

Also see the paragraph below Fig.5 in the above paper, where a hen
developed features of a duck.  "morphic resonance engineering" in
action?!! 

To me, "Torsion" appears to be like "radioactivity" was in 1900:  a single
explanation which possibly can unite hundreds of separate mysteries.
However, we should learn the lessons offered by the history of
radioactivity.  Obviously we must be careful not to use the torsion
concept to explain ALL mysteries.  Also, don't start swallowing quantities
of "torsion" patent-medicine, like the people in 1910 were swallowing
radium cure-alls.  Even now there are torsion-treated water products for
sale in the alternative-health marketplace (although they call them other
names.)  Are these products actually safe?

More safety issues: there are the incidents with x-rays in 1900.  Torsion
devices almost certainly involve unknown dangers.  There is no guarantee
that researchers who conduct experiment with torsion devices will not
suddenly die of strange disorders many years in the future.  What
physician can offer a cure for people who develop characteristics of
animals, or a cure for accidental burns delivered to the aura?

:) 


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  9 08:14:18 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Supercurrent in solenoi
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At 4:53 AM 2/9/99, Cornwall RO wrote:

>I'm having trouble letting things go to the limit of the argument. In
>superconducting case, my battery voltage becomes zero. My back emf becomes
>what?. How do I stop (or lower) the current in a zero resistance loop by
>imposition of magnetic field? Surely any back emf would induce and
>infinite current in the other direction.


Don't forget that superconductors only have zero resistance at zero
frequency. Electrons have mass and changing their velocity requires energy.
In a lattice, even a superconducting lattice, the electrons have an even
(much) larger apparent mass m* than their mass in a vacuum m, because they
drag around lattice changes with them, called phonons.  If the frequency
gets high enough, or even while di/dt of a one time pulse is high, the
superconductor acts like a normal conductor.

>
>I can't really buy that reluctance stuff, it's dirty engineering tricks
>and the fundamentals are always much better. The 1/2Li2 argument is
>powerful but does it blinker one from the possibilities?


Think about the energy required to push a shielded object into the
solenoid.  It increases the pressure and increases the current.  If it is
placed there before the current is generated it makes imposing the initial
superconducting current require more energy.  The energy required to push
the field displacer into the solenoid goes into the field created.

>
>This is the crunch argument for any bifilar coil mechanism as far as I'm
>concerned. If I can't break this argument, I think it can't be done by
>that approach.
>Remi.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  9 10:18:58 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: The Interface and LENR
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BACKGROUND

It is well know in electrochemistry that a two layer potential gradient
develops where two differing materials meet, or even where a conductor
meets the vacuum.  This two layer interphase is called the interface.  Very
large field gradients exist and large incremental field gradients develop
at interfaces with even small applied voltages.  This is because the
thickness of the interface is so small.   A simple 1 volt potential across
a 10 angstrom interface generates a gradient of 1 V/(1x10^-9 m) = 10^9 V/m.

There have been various posts here by me and others regarding the possible
importance of the electron in low energy nuclear reactions (LENR), from the
standpoints of electrostatic shielding, electron capture, and the
standpoint of incremental energy contributions to the nucleus, and how the
probability of electron presence in the nucleus should be strongly affected
by large field gradients.  In addition, there is the possibility of the
formation of Bose condensates comprised of hydrogen (and/or other) atoms on
high field gradient proton conducting tendrils. I have suggested that
sufficiently energetic stimulation of such a Bose condensate could lead to
a LENR.   Fred Sparber has recently suggested the possible utilization of
high field gradients near needles in insulating material for nuclear
remdiation, as an improvement of Barker's method.

LOOKING FOR NEW INTERFACES

Much of the electrochemical work on LENR has involved only the interface of
water based electrolytes and metals, mostly Pd and Ni.  The purpose of this
post is to suggest that a productive area of investigation is the use of
other interfaces, specifically interfaces which can support larger voltages
with less current flow.  Of interest are interfaces between various proton
conductors, especially sufonated plastics, and between proton conductors
and hydrogen adsorbing conductors like Pd and Ni.  It is especially
interesting that sulfonated polystyrene beads coated with metals have been
involved in various supposedly successful LENR reactions.  As possible
proton condutor, the sulfonated polystyrene may have played a critical role
in the reactions.  More specifically the plastic-metal interface may have
played the crucial role in succes or failure of such beads, rather than the
nature of the metal coating itself.

Using this notion, it seems logical to utilize cathodes comprized of many
thin layers, and which can support a large voltage differential.  One
possibility for such a layered cathode would be layers of sulfonated
polystyrene imbedded between layers of PD foil.  This could be made in
sheet form and bonded by applying heat and pressure.  However, this is a
very limitied application of the concept.  It is likely that effective
electrodes might be made entirely of differing types of plastics and/or
ceramics, and that dendrite formation may be a key element of construction.
A search for interfaces and materials should be made based on the
characteristics (a) proton conductivity high, (b) electron conductivty low,
(c) dielectric strength high, (d) interface gradient high, and (e) degree
of resillience and hardiness in the intended environment.

LENR research so far seems to be only a scratch on the surface of a large
area of investigation.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  9 10:27:04 1999
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Horace,

At 4:53 AM 2/9/99, Cornwall RO wrote:

>>I'm having trouble letting things go to the limit of the argument. In
>>superconducting case, my battery voltage becomes zero. My back emf
becomes
>>what?. How do I stop (or lower) the current in a zero resistance loop by
>>imposition of magnetic field? Surely any back emf would induce and
>>infinite current in the other direction.

Horace
>Don't forget that superconductors only have zero resistance at zero
>frequency. Electrons have mass and changing their velocity requires
energy.
>In a lattice, even a superconducting lattice, the electrons have an even
>(much) larger apparent mass m* than their mass in a vacuum m, because
they
>drag around lattice changes with them, called phonons.  If the frequency
>gets high enough, or even while di/dt of a one time pulse is high, the
>superconductor acts like a normal conductor.

This frequency is something like 10THz. Its a good point though. So these
Cooper pairs scatter off the phonons. I though one of the biggest uses of
sc (even comparatively 'warm' ones) was going to be at microwave
frequencies. This is a digression though but interesting.

In the simple analysis when one unshorts the secondary, the back emf
instantly equals the battery voltage. 

View with fixed font please (_) meant to look like a circle, or symbol for
voltage source. 

                 ___resistance__
                 |             |
	Battery (_)           (_) Back emf | Bifilar mechanism just
unshorted on other
	         |             |           | coil. Primary current kicks
down, in
                 |_____________|           | an instant?
                  Primary

This is one point I didn't really get cleared up from George about
unshorting the secondary: the net current argument is very powerful, but
to me the circuit is first order and must have a first order response. Is
that back emf really instant? For one input action (unshort the secondary)
we seem to get two effects, instant ramp down, then ramp up.

How does a magnet do it? If you're saying that at very high frequencies
superconductivity fails, how would a hollowed out iron whisker perform
with the shield/unshield experiment? Are you saying that the
superconductivity would fail for the high frequencies? Energy would be
dissipated, the whisker would get hot. Where does the energy come from?
Unshielding doesn't consume much energy (it could be flipping a switch and
open/c a coil).

                 
>Think about the energy required to push a shielded object into the
>solenoid.  It increases the pressure and increases the current.  If it is
>placed there before the current is generated it makes imposing the
initial
>superconducting current require more energy.  The energy required to push
>the field displacer into the solenoid goes into the field created.

Okay no pushing. Already in place, two concentric superconducting coils,
core high mu. Outer coil has current established, fields cancel, doesn't
behave inductively. Unshort secondary, from 1/2Li^2 CofE argument, current
in primary must drop. Mechanism? CofE always seems to account, God won't
let you cook the books. How can back emf appear across zero resistance and
generate just the required current to balance. For that matter, how did I
establish the current in the outer loop. Some voodoo going on here that I
need to study. 

Paradigm for me is emf makes current flow. But the converse isn't true,
current flowing => emf.

CofE wins again however it does it!
Remi.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  9 10:57:16 1999
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In Message-ID: <3e92f3a5.36bc6e33 aol.com> dated Sat, 6 Feb 1999 11:30:43 EST,
I expressed concern about the possible hazards of running deuterium instead of
hydrogen in a cell like Vince Cockeram's:  

Gaseous tritium isn't good for one's health if anything breaks.  Furthermore,
a high-temperature gas-phase cell like Vince's might produce deuterinos fairly
far down the quantum ladder, and those deuterinos might produce unhealthy
levels of stuff other than tritium, e.g., gammas and neutrons.  In the context
of Mills' views about the solar corona, Mills has said that hydrinos (and
presumably deuterinos) can flare up.  If I were in Vince's shoes, I'd be
strongly inclined to leave deuterium work to researchers like Tom Claytor who
have access to safe facilities.

In Message-ID: <19990207055907.2325.rocketmail send102.yahoomail.com>, dated
Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:59:07 -0800 (PST), Mike Schaffer replied:

"But in small enough quantities, it [tritium] is not a serious problem. So far
no one is producing anything approaching hazardous quantities of tritium or
neutrons or other ionizing radiation (except UV) from any of these
experiments. Prudence dictates that one use a simple radiation monitor, like a
Geiger counter, while running an experiment."

I agree that there's no proof that anyone in the field of CF has been
producing hazardous quantities of tritium or neutrons or gammas, but I'd hate
to see Vince become the first exception.

Mike Schaffer, you don't take the hydrinos or deuterinos seriously.  You don't
think that they really exist.  I think that Mills is right and that he has
produced lots of evidence showing that the universe is full of them and that
they can be made rather easily.  So I'd be worried about doing a Mills-type
gas-phase experiment with deuterium.  I don't know what would happen, but
that's just the point:  it's unexplored territory.

I think that prudence dictates more than just the use of a simple radiation
monitor like a Geiger counter while running a gas-phase experiment with
deuterium.  If the monitor registered a big burst, it might be too late.  It
seems to me that prudence dictates leaving gas-phase deuterium work to people
with secure facilities.

Tom Stolper

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In a message dated 99-02-09 10:12:02 EST, you write:

>Bill Beaty wrote:
>
>> According to the Russians, "passive shape-effect" torsion devices include
>> pyramids, etc.  I think this means that "radionics" *IS* torsion physics
>> (especially the devices such as Pavlita's inventions).  I also would
>> suspect that dowsing, aura-vision, etc., *IS* torsion physics. 
>
>I suppose this might include Sheldrake's 'morphic resonance.'
>
>Ed Wall

IMO, this thread is DRASTICALLY important, esp. since we can now scrutinize an
applied technology for unintended side-effects.  These non-EM emanations may
be the language of 'life energy', of intercellular communication.  Although
the emanations from rocks, etc. seem to be distance-sensitive, they might be
an instance of modulated "ether", perhaps the same carrier of telepathic
signals; they might be an FTL phenomenon.  

A couple days ago, I was conversing with a retired aerospace physicist (who
will soon become a household name) about Dr. John Ray's *miraculous* healing
technique "Body Electronics", and about another acquaintance’s astounding
horticultural innovations.  Although this physicists' perspective is outside
my (and presently, almost everyone else's) grasp, he explained the
aforementioned advances as cases of successful (if unintentional) interaction
with the *consciousness" of bodies, of plants and of energies (even down to
individual photons).  His contention is that our brains' magnetite crystals
are responsible for our "6th sense", whereby we receive intuition, ESP, etc.
I'd clearly include DOWSING in this category!  

The force to which the 6th sense responds might *roughly* be described as a
subtle, naturally-occurring magnetism pulsating at high frequencies.
According to the physicist, the Earth exudes these frequencies, and most
people pick up a maximum frequency of "7", which therefore is also their
highest "level of consciousness".  Interestingly, his use of that term is not
nebulous, but denotes the number of biochemical traces over one's cerebral
cortex, a number which (in most people) stops increasing at around the age of
8.  (The Earth now exudes upwards of level 400 at various "vortex" sites; 2000
yr. ago, the planet--and Jesus--were at 33).

I wonder if magnetite is the principal constituent in the SFD's "passive
transducer".  That which receives can transmit!  If this device operates on
the substrate of the human 6th sense, we might be looking at telepathic
broadcasting stations & personal receivers, in comparison to which the
internet were only a prelude.  We might learn to bridge the communicative gap
between ourselves and plants in order to develop new, super-efficient
horticultural techniques.  We might read the aural "signatures" substances
like healing herbs, and reproduce their effects using tuned energy.  We might
replicate my friend’s work, which is to broadcast frequencies that raise
people’s consciousness (according to their “readiness”.)  Etc., etc.!  

How much would it cost to rent (and dissect!) an SFD!?

--Russ

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Subject: Re: Torsion physics now in use?????
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I wonder if torsion fields can affect capacitor self-charging. If they do,
measuring capacitance might be worth comparing to the
tungsten/wheatstone-bridge as a detector element.

Does anyone know if the resistance of the tungsten element in a torsion
field supposedly varies with the direction the resistance gets measured
through the presumably anisotropic tungsten sample, or is it just
conventional resistance? You know, have three pairs of leads on a
cube-shaped sample for simultaneous x-y-z resistance readouts? My previous
results on different-oriented sets of capacitors in self charging
experiments were rather vague, and pairs tended to 'communicate', probably
through air/ion channels that formed inside their common enclosure (an
effect that should be easily defeated with some simple isolation).

Maybe arrays of oriented sensors could produce 2D or even 3D displays of
torsion field sources - color coding for spin orientation and strength.
Hmm...Spin Goggles(TM) for seeing inside differentiated solid objects
(great for medical use), seeing auras, ghosts, UFOs, buried avalanche
victims, The Past, etc. Psychedelic, man!


- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  9 12:51:15 1999
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	Dear Fred and Vo.,

	To date we know a few things from actual experiment.


	a] .. if you adhere to Barker's protocol... it works... if you
don't ... it won't. 
	b] ... it takes 9 months to 14 months to see the effect...


	Read the patent!
	

On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

> To: Vortex
> 
> IF there is any merit to Barker's Remediation Process, whether due to high
> fields and Neutrino"Oscillation" induction, or other,one should be able to
> dip a thin wire or needle in a radioisotope compound and measure the
> radiation count before and after a high voltage is applied.
> 
> OTOH, High voltages tend to attract Radon Daughters. :-)
> 
> Be that as it may, if the results are positive,then the Power Companies can
> substitute metal tubing for the cables on their
> high voltage transmission lines and pump the nuclear wastes through them.
> 
> That way by the time they get to Phoenix... :-)
> 
> Regards,    Frederick
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  9 13:10:20 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Torsion physics now in use?????
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On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Does anyone know if the resistance of the tungsten element in a torsion
> field supposedly varies with the direction the resistance gets measured
> through the presumably anisotropic tungsten sample, or is it just
> conventional resistance? You know, have three pairs of leads on a
> cube-shaped sample for simultaneous x-y-z resistance readouts?

I would post this to vortexC-L, perhaps the Russian groups already know
the answer.



> Maybe arrays of oriented sensors could produce 2D or even 3D displays of
> torsion field sources - color coding for spin orientation and strength.
> Hmm...Spin Goggles(TM) for seeing inside differentiated solid objects
> (great for medical use), seeing auras, ghosts, UFOs, buried avalanche
> victims, The Past, etc. Psychedelic, man!

(I've heard rumors of Russian detector devices used to locate buried
earthquake victims.) 


Also, read the old "aura camera" article at:

   http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/aura/aura.html

The part about ancient egyptians discussing the formation of planetary
rings is damn scary.  Right out of Shpilman's articles! (links on the
Torsion page.)  Shramek doesn't give too much info about his CCD-based
second-generation aura camera.  It's entirely possible that he found a way
to make a conventional CCD element become sensitive to torsion.  I've
invited Shramek to join vortexC-L.  If there are hidden dangers involved,
perhaps Mr. Shramek will wish to dissuade us from proceeding blindly into
the Land o' Torsion.  (Shramek's name should be familiar.  He announced
the presence of the Hale-Bopp companion, which triggered that cult to
commit suicide.) 


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  9 13:23:28 1999
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
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Subject: Re: Supercurrent in solenoid.
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:29:08 -0500
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Remi,
I'll continue the discussion on vortex in order to avoid the
confusion of multiple emails.
You wrote:
>I agree with your view of a magnet as a coil with a current source - but,
>current sources are there to supply energy against dissipation. What
>dissipation is needed to drive a current around a superconductor? The
>current source is superfluous.
-
The current source is not superfluous, it is required to model the
behavior of the permanent magnet in a dynamic environment, with
either AC fields or motion.
-
>The big question is whether the current drops when a high permeability
>material is placed in the solenoid and suddenly unshielded and exposed to
>the solenoid's field. CofE would have us believe that the current would
>drop by i/mu. How is this possible? There can be no back emf because the
>solenoid is shorted - what is the mechanism?
-
The inductor equation E=L*dI/dT +I*dL/dT shows the mechanism. If E is 0,
L*dI/dT = -I* dL/dT. L changes as the mu of the environment changes.
As Scott and Horace have pointed out, the current responds to reluctance
changes in the vicinity of the solenoid, and although the resistance is
zero, the AC impedance can still be high. 
-
>If the back emf is pinned to zero, that must mean that the rate of change
>of flux is zero and there can be no increase in flux inside the solenoid.
>Is another way of stating it. How does this go with experience?
-
Right, this is the proper constraint to apply when the applied voltage is
zero. The current varies to keep the flux constant with zero
drive voltage. Energy and current may vary with changes in mu, but the
flux remains constant in a shorted coil. 
-
>If I have a superconducting solenoid with a current established in it, it
>behaves like a permenent magnet. Next I shield a hi mu material and place
>it in the coil and then unshield it. What happens?
-
The superconducting solenoid is not a good model for a permanent magnet.
The answer to this question is quite different in the two cases. The
PM does not constrain the flux to be constant, the shorted coil does.
Which version do you need answered?
George
-
George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
1924 US Hwy 22 East            Bound Brook NJ 08805





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  9 14:10:33 1999
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Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:42:14 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Torsion physics now in use?????
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Bill -

  > The part about ancient egyptians discussing
  > the formation of planetary rings is damn scary.

Was there ever a good conventional explanation for Saturn's "braided" rings?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  9 16:28:01 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Supercurrent in solenoi
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At 9:23 AM 2/9/99, Cornwall RO wrote:
>Horace,
>
>At 4:53 AM 2/9/99, Cornwall RO wrote:
>
>>>I'm having trouble letting things go to the limit of the argument. In
>>>superconducting case, my battery voltage becomes zero. My back emf
>becomes
>>>what?. How do I stop (or lower) the current in a zero resistance loop by
>>>imposition of magnetic field? Surely any back emf would induce and
>>>infinite current in the other direction.
>
>Horace
>>Don't forget that superconductors only have zero resistance at zero
>>frequency. Electrons have mass and changing their velocity requires
>energy.
>>In a lattice, even a superconducting lattice, the electrons have an even
>>(much) larger apparent mass m* than their mass in a vacuum m, because
>they
>>drag around lattice changes with them, called phonons.  If the frequency
>>gets high enough, or even while di/dt of a one time pulse is high, the
>>superconductor acts like a normal conductor.
>
>This frequency is something like 10THz.


No, I believe it becomes significant in less than the MHz range.  Don't
have a reference on this, though.  It is true that electrons tunneling
across a gap with a potential difference jump back and forth, and do so at
a frequency that depends upon the voltage across the gap.  This is called
the AC Josephson effect.  A gradient of only 10^-6 V across a junction
causes an oscillation frequency of 5x10^8 Hz.  The rate of oscillation is
sufficient that the energy applied to the gap is radiated away, thus
maintaining the superconductivity of the material forming the gap.   This
is the basis of my remarks some time ago about the possibility the tampere
experient was, due to stress on the disk, possibly opening fractures in the
disk material that could cause very high frequency and directional
penetrating radiation that might heat the vicinty above the disk, causing
air convection.

> Its a good point though. So these
>Cooper pairs scatter off the phonons.


My understanding is the electrons don't really scatter so much a drag the
lattice deformations around with them (each individually, even when in
pairs.)  In Cooper pairs, the phonons do not so much scatter the electrons
as they move, but rather, through long range coherence, orchestrate the
motion of the pair so as to merely add the momenta of the lattice
deformations to momenta of the electrons.  The Cooper pairs act as a pair
moving with zero resistance, but still carry the increased momentum due to
being in a lattice.  This added momentum at a given velocity gives the
apparent change of mass of the individual electrons from m_e to m_e*.
This added momentum has no effect on electron pairs in constant velocity
motion, i.e. DC current.  However, the effect upon an electron in a field
gradient becomes measurable.  The effect of such added momentum is not
unique to superconducting electrons, but all electrons in a lattice and has
a significant effect in various semiconductor characteristics.

I should qualify this remark withthe fact that, if the momenta of the
electrons retards their motion sufficiently for a potential gradient to
develop with the superconductor, that even a tiny fraction of a volt
between individual pairs will force the loss of their coherence.


>I though one of the biggest uses of
>sc (even comparatively 'warm' ones) was going to be at microwave
>frequencies. This is a digression though but interesting.
>
>In the simple analysis when one unshorts the secondary, the back emf
>instantly equals the battery voltage.


Not within the superconductor itself.  The gradient there is zero, or
almost zero.  The battery has its own internal finite resistance.  It is
thus in a voltage devider where one leg has zero resistance, thus the
battery carries all the voltage drop.


>
>View with fixed font please (_) meant to look like a circle, or symbol for
>voltage source.
>
>                 ___resistance__
>                 |             |
>        Battery (_)           (_) Back emf | Bifilar mechanism just
>unshorted on other
>                 |             |           | coil. Primary current kicks
>down, in
>                 |_____________|           | an instant?
>                  Primary
>
>This is one point I didn't really get cleared up from George about
>unshorting the secondary: the net current argument is very powerful, but
>to me the circuit is first order and must have a first order response. Is
>that back emf really instant? For one input action (unshort the secondary)
>we seem to get two effects, instant ramp down, then ramp up.
>
>How does a magnet do it? If you're saying that at very high frequencies
>superconductivity fails, how would a hollowed out iron whisker perform
>with the shield/unshield experiment?

No, not all am I saying the superconductivity fails, only that there is a
resistance in a superconductor that is a function of frequency.  This fact,
as well as the inductance of a superconductor, precludes any "suddenly
infinite current" type concepts from working in reality.


>Are you saying that the
>superconductivity would fail for the high frequencies? Energy would be
>dissipated, the whisker would get hot. Where does the energy come from?
>Unshielding doesn't consume much energy (it could be flipping a switch and
>open/c a coil).

Not true.  Shielding involves compressing the magnetic field out of one
volume and into another volume, extending flux line length in the process.
That takes energy, and stores the energy in the field so distorted.


>
>
>>Think about the energy required to push a shielded object into the
>>solenoid.  It increases the pressure and increases the current.  If it is
>>placed there before the current is generated it makes imposing the
>initial
>>superconducting current require more energy.  The energy required to push
>>the field displacer into the solenoid goes into the field created.
>
>Okay no pushing. Already in place,

The energy to put things "in place" came from either pushing them in place,
thus changing the currents in the SC coils, or in the energy required to
drive the back emf from establishing the field in the first place.


> two concentric superconducting coils,
>core high mu. Outer coil has current established, fields cancel, doesn't
>behave inductively. Unshort secondary, from 1/2Li^2 CofE argument, current
>in primary must drop. Mechanism?


Part of the field energy will be dissipated by Josephson AC radiation at
the point where the superconductor is unshorted, if the unshorting does not
cause a catastrophic failure due to loss of superconductivity at the
unshorting point.  8^)  The Meissner effect, the generation of current in a
superconducting ring to generate a counteracting field that exactly opposes
any change in flux in the ring, accounts for other changes in flux and
current.

>CofE always seems to account, God won't
>let you cook the books. How can back emf appear across zero resistance and
>generate just the required current to balance. For that matter, how did I
>establish the current in the outer loop.


By either (a) applying a current and then cooling to superconducting a
bridge that closes the circuit or (b) cooling the coil with a magnetic
field in place and then withdrawing the field, thus genrating an equal but
oposing field.

>Some voodoo going on here that I
>need to study.


Yes, perhaps there is some voodo that can be used hiding in all this.
However, superconductivity especially, and QM in general, abounds with
seeming paradoxes that readily resolve themselves upon experimentation or
good application of theory.  Most of this stuff is way above my head, but I
offered what little I think I do know in the hope it will be of use.  More
than half the trick of knowing where to look is knowing where not to look,
so maybe the above will be of use to you in your search for free energy.


>
>Paradigm for me is emf makes current flow. But the converse isn't true,
>current flowing => emf.
>
>CofE wins again however it does it!
>Remi.

I should also note that care is necessary that any assumed configuration is
feasible, otherwise any conclusion is possible.  I've probably said too
much already for my knowlege at hand, so I'll just go back to lurk mode
now.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb  9 20:44:56 1999
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Feb. 9, 1999   I'd like to mention using high purity paraffin wax as a medium
for studying effects on surfaces with high voltage gradients.   The viscosity
can be varied  over a very wide range by temperature, solid to highly fluid.
Any reaction products would be localized within the wax at low viscosities.  As
an insulator, very high voltages can be sustained.  Plenty of protons.  Can
paraffin act as a proton conductor?  Probably can get single carbon isotope wax
to study nuclear effects.  Can the wax be doped with doner and acceptor
impurities?   Also consider using sulfur, and fluorocarbon waxes and oils.

Rich Murray


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Subject: Gold: details research on aspartame headaches
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Subject:    Re: Schiffman: no aspartame headaches 1988
   Date:      Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:59:33 -0500 (EST)
   From      Mark Gold <mgold tiac.net>
     To:       rmforall earthlink.net

>Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 12:22:51 -0700
>From: "Richard T. Murray" <rmforall earthlink.net>
>To: mgold tiac.net, gorman@time.com
>Subject: Schiffman: no aspartame headaches 1988
>
>Feb. 7, 1999   Hello Mark Gold,   Christine Gorman, writer, [
>gorman time.com ]  cited this study by Susan Schiffman of Duke
University
[ sss acpub.duke.edu ]    in her article in
>Time Magazine, Jan. 2, 1999.

Richard,

The Time Magazine article is a perfect example of why it is very
important
for journalists to speak with independent researchers and read the
entire
study, not just the summaries before rushing to publish an editorial.

I have a response to the Time Magazine article on the following web
page:

        http://www.holisticmed.com/aspartame/time.html

Now, Monsanto is distributing this Time Magazine editorial throughout
Europe in order to convince people that it is "safe."  Fortunately, many

Europeans do not trust Monsanto (for good reason!).

A detailed look at aspartame and Migraines/Headaches can be found on
this
section of my web page:

        http://www.holisticmed.com/aspartame/abuse/

I suggest printing out and reading through all of that section so you
can
get a good sense of the issue.

I hope this helps!

>Talking to my neice, 30, a professor in biostatistics,  last Thursday,
she said she and her husband, who does research
>on infectious diseases, both believe that diet soda gave them
headaches,
>and no longer drink it.  It took about a year for them to notice this
>reaction.

In some cases, I have received cases of people suffering from
debilitating
headaches for over 10 years before making the connection of aspartame.
I am very glad that they noticed this early on.

Best Wishes,
                             - Mark
                      mgold holisticmed.com

              Aspartame Toxicity Information Center
   (Monsanto, Benevia, NutraSweet, Equal, NatraTaste, Neotame)
             http://www.HolisticMed.com/aspartame/




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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 10 01:58:53 1999
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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 01:07:54 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Paraffin wax as reaction matrix
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At 9:43 PM 2/9/99, Richard T. Murray wrote:
>Feb. 9, 1999   I'd like to mention using high purity paraffin wax as a medium
>for studying effects on surfaces with high voltage gradients.   The viscosity
>can be varied  over a very wide range by temperature, solid to highly fluid.
>Any reaction products would be localized within the wax at low viscosities.  As
>an insulator, very high voltages can be sustained.  Plenty of protons.  Can
>paraffin act as a proton conductor?  Probably can get single carbon isotope wax
>to study nuclear effects.  Can the wax be doped with doner and acceptor
>impurities?   Also consider using sulfur, and fluorocarbon waxes and oils.
>
>Rich Murray

An interesting thought.  I don't know if waxes can be made proton
conductors, but ions are certainly free to move within wax, as it is a
liquid, even when it appears solid.  So is glass for that matter, but the
viscosity is very high.  Waxes and oils in a thin fiberous membrane would
avoid short circuits and, as a strong dielectric, might support a large
gradient.  It does seem that, as H+ ions emerged from the anode side of a
conductive medium into a dielectric that they would attempt to pick up an
electron, but there would only be so many to go around, and the H nuclei
would have to compete with the anode for the electrons in the dielectric
surface.  Once in the soup of the dielectric, away from the anode, it seems
like the H would form an atom and become inert, though.  Would make for
some interesting experiments.

On the cathode side, the electrode, with a sufficient gradient, might be
able to strip hydrogen from the wax molecules directly.  If there were a
mechanism to do hydrogen exchanges through the wax to achieve replacement,
essentially a negative hole conduction, then it would be a proton
conductor.

A deuterated wax or oil might be of special interest, due to the
possibility of combining NMR excitement along with strong gradients.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 10 08:01:59 1999
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From: Cornwall RO <R.O.Cornwall city.ac.uk>
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Thanks folks,

There's no mileage in this (for me at least:)
Need new physics close to experiment. We have the technology we have, er
some money.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 10 11:12:59 1999
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To: vortexC-L eskimo.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, nichols@cybertime.com, UNIR2B1NM@aol.com,
        richarda icx.net, lizardhaven@zippnet.net, werosser@hotmail.com,
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Subject: Re: Torsion physics now in use?????
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On Tue, 9 Feb 1999 UNIR2B1NM aol.com wrote:

> His contention is that our brains' magnetite crystals
> are responsible for our "6th sense", whereby we receive intuition, ESP, etc.
> I'd clearly include DOWSING in this category!  

All throughout my life, my attention has been drawn to certain things. 
It's like a "non-bullshit detector."  Or something that senses backward
temporal propagation of massively important future events. One of those
things that has that special "feel" was the report of discovery of human
magnetite crystals. 

It goes without saying that my detector is on total screaming overload
right now because of Torsion.  Feels like staying awake for three days,
then drinking several pots of coffee on an empty stomach. 

> I wonder if magnetite is the principal constituent in the SFD's "passive
> transducer".  That which receives can transmit!

The "Bedini Clarifier" is an emitter based on ferrite magnets.  The
Shannon Barkhusen Detector is a detector based on iron crystals.  I hope
that these can be usefully paired:

http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/bedini.txt
http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/bark.html


Both are part of the files collected here:

http://www.amasci.com/weird/const.html


> How much would it cost to rent (and dissect!) an SFD!?

I would predict that the company is paranoid, and won't allow their
equipment out of their sight.

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 10 12:23:09 1999
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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:20:55 -0600
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: BLP Response!
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I just received the following response from BLP!

>Return-Path: <wrgood earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: OEM/development
>Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 14:34:05 -0500
>From: wrgood <wrgood earthlink.net>
>To: "Scott Little" <little eden.com>
>
>We want to acknowlege receiving your mail and assure you that it has been 
>passed on to the appropriate person.  Personal response time will vary 
>depending on the request and avaliblity . We are sorry if this causes you 
>any inconvenience.
>
>Thank you for your interest in our company, and for contacting BlackLight 
>Power, Inc..   

Sounds kinda robotic...but at least it's a response!



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 10 12:48:09 1999
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	Dear Remi and Vo.,

	Slightly confused [no... that is wrong... I am honestly mostly 
confused most of the time... but I digress.. :)

On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Cornwall RO wrote:

> Thanks folks,
> 
> There's no mileage in this (for me at least:)

	Milage in what?
> Need new physics close to experiment.

	? Close to an experiment?  To some experiemnt???

 We have the technology we have, er
> some money.


	I can use some "er money" ... but what are we talking about..

			

> Remi.
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 10 13:24:59 1999
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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In a message dated 2/10/99 12:22:15 PM Pacific Standard Time, little eden.com
writes:

<< Sounds kinda robotic...but at least it's a response!
  >>
Hi Scott,

Robotic, indeed!!!  It is word for word the same message I got a year ago in
response to a question as to how their previously announced, scaled up, self-
sustaining reactor was coming.  I have as yet received no further
communication.

Good luck,

Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 10 14:14:18 1999
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------E21744D115005F328FD7A636
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Feb. 10, 1999  Hi Scott Little,  That's exactly the same robotic response I
always got from Blacklight Power in all of 1997, no matter whether I sent them
supportive or critical posts.    Regards,  Rich Murray

--------------E21744D115005F328FD7A636
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 10 15:39:31 1999
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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:37:03 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: another try at BLP
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Here's what I sent back to BLP today:

>>>>
At 14:34 2/10/99 -0500, you wrote:

>We want to acknowlege receiving your mail.....

Thanks.  

A point I failed to make in my initial letter:

While we are eager to work WITH you in developing this exciting technology,
if you decide that you have plenty of help already, we would still like to
visit your facility with our portable calorimeter system
(http://www.eden.com/~little/vwfc/vwfc.html) to perform an independent
confirmation of your excess heat phenomena.  In exchange for the
opportunity to measure a genuine excess heat device, we will perform the
measurements free of charge and provide you with a detailed report of our
findings that you may use in your promotional efforts as you see fit.

I look forward to hearing from you again.

<<<<





Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 10 15:47:00 1999
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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:55:20 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: another try at BLP
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At 5:37 PM 2/10/99, Scott Little wrote:
>Here's what I sent back to BLP today:
>
>>>>>
>At 14:34 2/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>We want to acknowlege receiving your mail.....
>
>Thanks.
>
>A point I failed to make in my initial letter:
>
>While we are eager to work WITH you in developing this exciting technology,
>if you decide that you have plenty of help already, we would still like to
>visit your facility with our portable calorimeter system
>(http://www.eden.com/~little/vwfc/vwfc.html) to perform an independent
>confirmation of your excess heat phenomena.  In exchange for the
>opportunity to measure a genuine excess heat device, we will perform the
>measurements free of charge and provide you with a detailed report of our
>findings that you may use in your promotional efforts as you see fit.
>
>I look forward to hearing from you again.


Maybe a phone call to Dr. Mills would work?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 10 22:42:01 1999
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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:32:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Supercurrent in solenoid.
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Remi Cornwall wrote:

>If I have a superconducting solenoid with a current established in
it, it
>behaves like a permenent magnet. Next I shield a hi mu material and
place
>it in the coil and then unshield it. What happens?

This is inconsistent. You can't shield the "hi mu material" without
the shield affecting the magnetic field of the SC solenoid. Also, you
can't "unshield it" without moving or changing the geometry or
vaporizing or otherwise changing the shield. 

> The big question is whether the current drops when a high permeability
> material is placed in the solenoid and suddenly unshielded and
exposed to
> the solenoid's field. CofE would have us believe that the current
would
> drop by i/mu. How is this possible? There can be no back emf because
the
> solenoid is shorted - what is the mechanism?

OK, let's assume that somehow a permeable material suddenly appeared
in the bore of a SC solenoid. George Holz explained the behavoir well.
Magnetic flux linked by the SC is conserved, constant. The
intorduction of the permeable material changes the inductance, and the
SC current changes to the value that keeps the flux constant. Current
is not a conserved quantity. Note carefully that inductance is nothing
more than a scalar number equal to the ratio between flux and current,
a ratio that depends on geometry and material.

>If the back emf is pinned to zero, that must mean that the rate of
change
>of flux is zero and there can be no increase in flux inside the
solenoid.
>Is another way of stating it. How does this go with experience?

Yes. This is what is observed.

>The next paradoxical question is if the solenoid is pinned to zero
volts,
>an infinite flux could build up and have no effect on the solenoid. 

No. The flux cannot change! It cannot "build up." The current can
change, however. You could make a big enough change that the current
would increase above the SC-normal critical current density, and then
the SC would change to normal and become resistive, but that is a
whole different phenomenon and is not related to what you are trying
to understand.
==
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 11 02:02:40 1999
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John and Vo,

I was just expressing a personal predjuice that when something
materialises in this field, it probably won't be commonplace 'old' physics
but utilising some strange misunderstood phenom. or genuiningly new
physics.

For me that rules out Bifilar coils, Bessler wheels, Meyer device etc. My
opinions are no more valid than anybody else's. I just think that much
confusion is caused by lack of education and the person needs to go away
and study why *THEY ARE WRONG*. Yes the text books get it wrong sometimes
but that no excuse for ignoring a whole body of knowledge - that's an
excuse for sloth.

I shall get back to what I was doing before my Bifilar coil excursion.
I've spent a little money, learnt/revised em, built a nice little lab and
contacted many like minded persons. For a little input and effort, I got a
lot more.

Now that's overunity!!

P.S. I may be quiet for a few weeks while I get back on the original
track. Reminds me, pay my IEE dues and renew my books, it's time to get
that copy of Bozorth again!
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 11 06:23:12 1999
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At 22:32 2/10/99 -0800, Michael Schaffer wrote:

>OK, let's assume that somehow a permeable material suddenly appeared
>in the bore of a SC solenoid. George Holz explained the behavoir well.
>Magnetic flux linked by the SC is conserved, constant.

Gee, that's right...so the energy stored in the magnetic field is probably
not conserved when the permeable material appears.  To see this more
clearly, let's get rid of the unphysical "permeable material suddenly
appears" and consider the following real situation:

1. A current is established in a SC ring (solenoid), generating certain
amount of flux thru the ring...which must be conserved.

2. Two C-shaped pieces of hi-mu material are brought from infinity and
assembled together to make a permeable core that threads thru the ring.

It's clear from experience with electromagnets that the flux induced in the
C's by the ring will cause the two C's to be attracted to each other as
they are assembled around the ring.  Thus to assemble them gently (without
a big heat-generating clack) the C-ring-C system will do work on the
assembler.  Thus the C-ring-C system energy will be lower after assembly
than before (i.e. it would take work to disassemble them).

Current will go down in the SC ring when the C's are closed together (as
needed to keep the total flux linked by the ring constant), L will go up,
but the final 1/2*L*i^2 will be less than the initial 1/2*L*i^2 by the
amount of work required to disassemble the C's back to infinity.

Remi, that's why you can't make an o-u engine out of this system....energy
is conserved throughout any real manipulation of coil-core components.  

Also, as Michael pointed out, you can't magically shield and un-shield
hi-mu material...in fact, what is commonly referred to as "magnetic
shielding" IS hi-mu material.  It provides shielding of things inside a box
made of it by "capturing" all the flux lines and making them flow thru the
box walls...instead of penetrating thru to the interior.




Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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Thank you . Very lucid. Now back to work.

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Dear Scott,

last one for a bit. Field sheilding by hi mu is not the same as field
shielding by cancellation. Or is it?

You talk I'll just watch passively when I have time.
Remi.

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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:35:53 -0500
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Scott wrote:

(snip of excellent example of the energetics of adding a high mu
    core to a shorted SC solenoid. )

>Also, as Michael pointed out, you can't magically shield and un-shield
>hi-mu material...in fact, what is commonly referred to as "magnetic
>shielding" IS hi-mu material.  It provides shielding of things inside a box
>made of it by "capturing" all the flux lines and making them flow thru the
>box walls...instead of penetrating thru to the interior.
-
I believe that Remi was thinking of using another SC coil or copper
coil as the shield. This makes the unshielding operation as simple as
opening a switch. Of course, this only adds another conservative stage
to the situation as the shielding coil plus high mu core are placed
inside the first coil, lowering its inductance and increasing its
current before the shield switch is opened.
-
Regards,
George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
1924 US Hwy 22 East            Bound Brook NJ 08805


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Subject:  Re: Britz: favorable reviews of Kozima & of Mizuno books
2.4.99
   Date:   Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:21:07 -0500 (EST)
   From:  "Richard A Blue" <blue pilot.msu.edu>
     To:     rmforall earthlink.net (Richard T. Murray)

Well, enough has been said about the limitations of the
Mizuno experimental evidence that I need not comment further.
However, the Kozima invocation of his Trapped Neutron Catalyzed
Fusion Theory as the answer to all remaining Cold Fusion
questions cannot be let pass.  This is flawed work!

I quote:
"A single parameter, the density of trapped neutrons in the
reaction space, is required to quantitatively account for
a large number of observations reasonably well."

Who am I quoting?  Is this Kozima speaking or is it Dieter
Britz?  Either way I suggest that it is such an overblown
and obviously flawed assertion, that its presence in Dieter's
remarks casts serious doubt on Dieter's ability to evaluate
properly such writings.  It is obvious nonsense and should
be so labeled in any serious critical review of this book.

Clearly any "quantitative account" of cold fusion claims has
to address the longstanding problem of the gross mismatch
between reaction rates required for nuclear processes to
deliver power at the watt level while remaining essentially
undetected by convential nuclear physics techniques.

Having any density of "trapped neutrons" that could by any
means conceivably result in the required reaction rates
still leaves two additional, very significant, parameters
to be considered.  We must know the reaction probablity
factors for each and every process that is said to occur.
Furthermore we must know what accounts for the suppression
of each and every process that is possible, but, if the
claims are true, simply does not occur.  It is this
needed information that the TNCF theory must provide,
in addition to a single density parameter, if it is to
account quantitatively for anything.  Where is this
essential information to come from?

Let us first address the concept of "trapped neutrons".
There are, of course, vast numbers of bound neutrons in
any macroscopic sample of matter.  That cannot possibly
be what Kozima has in mind.  He must be talking about
neutrons that are, in the nuclear sense, unbound or free.
That is to say the dominant residual interactions which
influence the behavior of these neutrons is electro-magnetic
in origin, as they are generally beyound the range of the
strong interactions with respect to all other nuclei.

It must be acknowledged that the behavior of neutrons in
similar states as those Kozima must invoke is not a subject
of total ignorance by the physics community.  There are
basically two domains to be considered, because the
observed phenomena are different.  There are observations
involving "thermal neutrons", and there are observations
involving "ultra-cold neutrons"   I will say that, until
it is proven otherwise, there will be no "ultra-cold
neutrons" in the systems under consideration.  It takes
special conditions to provide a source of the "ultra-
cold neutrons", so they cannot reasonably be assumed
to exist when the conditions do not exist that can provide
the cooling.

So we have a density of thermal neutrons in some solid.
What happens to thermal neutrons in a solid, generally
speaking:  (1)They may leak out.   (2)They may decay.
(3)They may undergo capture by the assortment of nuclei
present in the solid.

Note that these three processes remove neutrons from any
trap one may care to construct and thus constitute limits
on the trapped density that can be achieved, regardless
of what neutron source reaction is assumed.

How does Kozima quantify the rates for the three loss
mechanisms?  Clearly a single density parameter cannot
address all three loss mechanisms, and it does make
a difference how the neutrons are lost from the trap,
when it comes to accounting "quantitatively" for any
observations on the system.

Let us next evaluate the likely consequences for each of
the three loss mechanisms.  If a thermal neutron leaks
out of the "trap", whatever that may be, it reenters a
familiar domain of ordinary matter under ordinary conditions,
where capture rates, for example, are well known.  Capture
becomes a detectable process, and we know very well that
the rate is extremely small.  It is a fact that there is
no significant neutron leakage from the Kozima trap.
It is, however, something his theory must address if
he is to justify any particular trapping density.
I will say that a trapped neutron density of zero is
consistant with all observations of which I am aware.

Next consider neutron decay. It happens, and the rate
is known for "free" neutrons.  Furthermore, it is
a detectable process.  We know with some confidence
that there are essentially no decays of free neutrons
occurring here.  Kozima must address this question,
if his theory is to be credible.  The simple assumption
of some unreasonable trapped neutron density is not
allowed by the observations in hand, because the decays
are detectable.

Finally. consider thermal neutron capture in a solid.
It is a thoroughly investigated subject.  Capture rates
in a whole host of materials are essential to the
design of all devices which use thermal neutrons.
The rates are not subject to arbitrary messing about
by cold fusion theorists.

Now how do you keep a neutron in a trap, when the walls
of any trap you attempt to construct may gobble up
the confined neutrons?  If the neutrons do not interact
with the atoms of the lattice, they may simply leak
out.  If they interact strongly enough to induce a
nuclear event, that event most likely will be a capture
reaction -- a known, detectable process in general.

The only way out of this trap is to assume some selectivity
in the reaction process.  If you pick and choose the
nuclei with which the neutrons interact, it may well be
possible to "account" for a given set of selected cold
fusion observations.  But this selection must be justified.
Without the detailed justifications for each and every
possible  process, this theory is simply hog wash.  To
string together a collection of absurd assumptions, none
of which are supported by experimental observations, does
not result in Kozima having a "threory" that explains
anything.  Dieter Britz should recognize this.

Dick Blue



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	What are you talking about...


		AND.............
  

On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Cornwall RO wrote:


	Which whoo John???



> John and Vo,
> 
> I was just expressing a personal predjuice that when something
> materialises in this field, it probably won't be commonplace 'old' physics
> but utilising some strange misunderstood phenom. or genuiningly new
> physics.
> 
> For me that rules out Bifilar coils, Bessler wheels, Meyer device etc. My
> opinions are no more valid than anybody else's. I just think that much
> confusion is caused by lack of education and the person needs to go away
> and study why *THEY ARE WRONG*. Yes the text books get it wrong sometimes
> but that no excuse for ignoring a whole body of knowledge - that's an
> excuse for sloth.
> i   
> I shall get back to what I was doing before my Bifilar coil excursion.
> I've spent a little money, learnt/revised em, built a nice little lab and
> contacted many like minded persons. For a little input and effort, I got a
> lot more.
> 
> Now that's overunity!!
> 
> P.S. I may be quiet for a few weeks while I get back on the original
> track. Reminds me, pay my IEE dues and renew my books, it's time to get
> that copy of Bozorth again!
> Remi.
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 11 20:20:43 1999
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Subject: Re: Supercurrent in solenoid.
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At 08:20 11/02/99 -0600, Scott Little wrote:
>At 22:32 2/10/99 -0800, Michael Schaffer wrote:
>
>>OK, let's assume that somehow a permeable material suddenly appeared
>>in the bore of a SC solenoid. George Holz explained the behavoir well.
>>Magnetic flux linked by the SC is conserved, constant.
>
>Gee, that's right...so the energy stored in the magnetic field is probably
>not conserved when the permeable material appears.  To see this more
>clearly, let's get rid of the unphysical "permeable material suddenly
>appears" and consider the following real situation:

I would just like to point out that "permeable material suddenly
appears" is not so unphysical.  If you raise a permeable material
above its curie temperature then it effectively disappears and then
reappears again as it cools down.  In fact the temperature of my
old Weller soldering is controlled by this phenomenon and I hear
it click in and out every few seconds.

Some thought may suggest an experiment in this line where accurate
calorimetry on a large piece of permeable material which is cycled
above and below its curie temperature in a magnetic field is just
what is required to check for an energy anomalies.

><snip an excellent descriptive analysis of magnet system>

I am not about to say that Scott's analysis falls in this
category (it may do - I'd have to think about it some more) but
often the quickest analysis method is to _assume_ conservation of
energy, and let that dictate what the outcome of an experiment
_must_ be.  But of course this is not a valid approach if we are
looking to find a hole in the conservation of energy.

Unfortunately this approach does work rather well and any errors
have been small enough to go unnoticed by the scientific world
at large :-(

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 12 06:12:40 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
Message-ID: <66eaf417.36c43652 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:10:26 EST
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Scott, 

You have offered to test a BLP energy cell free of charge, supply BLP with a
copy of your report on the test, let them use that report as they wish, and
tell them confidentially who your sponsor is.

That's an interesting offer, and I'd like to see Mills take it seriously,
because he, or Bill Good, or one of the other people at BLP might be able to
show you just what you've been doing wrong; but I don't think that Mills will
take it seriously.

My reasons for thinking so:

1)  I believe that your sponsor would have to lay his cards on the table for
Mills, in a formal, hardcopy letter, and without requiring Mills to sign any
nondisclosure agreement.

2)  I doubt that Mills has had the time to follow your replication efforts,
but I would guess (and it's only a guess, I don't know) that someone in Mills'
camp has been keeping an eye on Vortex-L and by extension on your replication
efforts.  I doubt that they'd be considered serious replication attempts at
BLP.  Your experiments were too far off-protocol, so far off that they imply
that you didn't study Mills' published papers or take the hydrino hypothesis
seriously.  

3)  As Mike Carrell pointed out here recently, Mills doesn't like being lumped
together with cold fusion or transmutation experiments.

4)  You've debunked various cold fusion and transmutation experiments, but
that isn't likely to help you gain entry to BLP, because, it seems to me,
you've fallen into a debunking mode, like Rich Murray.  It's too easy to find
serious flaws in most cold fusion or transmutation work, and I think that's
led you to assume that they must be there in Mills' work, too, even though his
experiments are physically and chemically far different.  If anyone associated
with BLP has been following your work, then they may have formed the same
opinion.

5)  Judging by the material on the BlackLight Power website, Mills has been
dealing seriously with a lot of serious people, both in a scientific and
engineering sense and in a financial sense, people who take Mills more
seriously than your experiments indicate that you do.  I'd guess that Mills
just doesn't have the time that he did in 1991 or 1992 to try to convince
skeptics, especially if he has reason to think that they haven't done their
homework.

6)  It seems to me that you're in a Catch 22 situation now:  in order to gain
access to test one of BLP's cells, you'd first have to show that you could
make one of them work yourself.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 12 07:17:27 1999
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At 09:10 2/12/99 EST, Tstolper aol.com wrote:

>6)  It seems to me that you're in a Catch 22 situation now:  in order to gain
>access to test one of BLP's cells, you'd first have to show that you could
>make one of them work yourself.

That's a Double Catch 22:  Then I wouldn't need to test one of his cells.

Mills values independent tests of his device.  I'm offering to do one for
free...at his facility.  There is no honest  reason for him to decline my
offer.

BTW, here is the response I got from my latest message to BLP:

>From: wrgood <wrgood earthlink.net>
>To: "Scott Little" <little eden.com>
>
>We want to acknowlege receiving your mail and assure you that it has been 
>passed on to the appropriate person.  Personal response time will vary 
>depending on the request and avaliblity . We are sorry if this causes you 
>any inconvenience.
>
>Thank you for your interest in our company, and for contacting BlackLight 
>Power, Inc..   



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:42:21 EST
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In a message dated 2/12/99 6:12:30 AM Pacific Standard Time, Tstolper aol.com
writes:

<< 4)  You've debunked various cold fusion and transmutation experiments, but
 that isn't likely to help you gain entry to BLP, because, it seems to me,
 you've fallen into a debunking mode, like Rich Murray.  It's too easy to find
 serious flaws in most cold fusion or transmutation work, and I think that's
 led you to assume that they must be there in Mills' work, too, even though
his
 experiments are physically and chemically far different.  If anyone
associated
 with BLP has been following your work, then they may have formed the same
 opinion. >>

Tom,

Having followed Scott Little's work carefully for quite a while, I
respectfully take acception to your characterization of his outlook.  Scott is
one of the most sincere and competent over unity energy researchers working in
the field today.  If he were less competent, he probably would have verified
several experiments that his careful investigative methods have failed to
confirm.  Surprizingly, this has not turned his thinking on the subject
negative.  He approaches each experiment with high hopes but he does not let
his hopes interfere with the results.  

On the other hand, Mills seems to be a real loner.  Giving him the benefit of
the doubt, maybe he just doesn't need any help and doesn't have time for much
PR  On the other hand, I remember being told once that if something sounds too
good to be true, it just might be.

Bob Briggs

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 12 09:31:46 1999
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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:40:31 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: another try at BLP
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At 10:42 AM 2/12/99 EST, BriggsRO aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 2/12/99 6:12:30 AM Pacific Standard Time, Tstolper aol.com
>writes:
>
><< 4)  You've debunked various cold fusion and transmutation experiments, but
> that isn't likely to help you gain entry to BLP, because, it seems to me,
> you've fallen into a debunking mode, like Rich Murray.  It's too easy to
find
> serious flaws in most cold fusion or transmutation work, and I think that's
> led you to assume that they must be there in Mills' work, too, even though
>his
> experiments are physically and chemically far different.  If anyone
>associated
> with BLP has been following your work, then they may have formed the same
> opinion. >>
>
>Tom,
>
>Having followed Scott Little's work carefully for quite a while, I
>respectfully take acception to your characterization of his outlook.
Scott is
>one of the most sincere and competent over unity energy researchers
working in
>the field today.  If he were less competent, he probably would have verified
>several experiments that his careful investigative methods have failed to
>confirm. 

   Tom Stolper has made good comments despite the
exception taken above. The cold fusion phenomena
take time, and quite a bit of scientific effort, to
achieve (or corroborate).  

    Mitchell Swartz

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 12 11:46:13 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Scott Little is NOT doing research!
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With all due respect for Scott Little, he is not an over-unity researcher.
He is not even in the running to become one. He is about as far from being
a scientist as I am from being Niklaus Wirth. Let us consider what a
scientist in this field does. Here are some quotes from a paper by De Ninno
et al., "Material science studies aimed at improving the reproducibility of
the heat excess experiments," Proc. ICCF-7, p. 103:


We have found that the Pd grain size is a significative parameter affecting
in a strong way both the loading kinetics and the maximum concentration. A
careful check of the microstructure appears thus necessary in order to
obtain high loading ratios . . .

We have studied the influence of the concentration of short circuit paths
(dislocations and grain boundaries) in the diffusive process. In fact,
since the Hydrogen diffusion coefficient is order of magnitude higher in
the grain boundaries than in the bulk, by increasing the grain boundary
density (i.e. small average grain size) the diffusive process can possibly
take place in two steps. Firstly, Hydrogen is incorporated in the grain
boundary network where the diffusivity is higher, permeating the material
bulk without generating a substantial strain owing to the small volume
fraction involved. In a second step Hydrogen can be incorporated into the
grain bulk by a diffusion process where the grain boundary acts as a source
. . .

Experimental procedure

Thermo-mechanical treatments and in particular cold working followed by
thermal treatment have been used to induce different grain size in Pd
samples, in order to study the effect of this microstructural feature on
the capability to absorb hydrogen and its isotopes.

Three different batches of Pd sheets were prepared by cold rolling the same
foil 0.7 mm thick. The original foil was presumably in the annealed state.
The samples were prepared by reducing the foil thickness from 0.700 to
0.450, 0.150 and 0.100 mm respectively. Small pieces of 16 x 5 mm cut from
each foil, were annealed under vacuum (10^-6 Torr) at temperatures ranging
from 800 deg C to 1200 deg C for 15 minutes, following the same temperature
ramp.

The resulting microstructure was characterized by scanning electron
microscopy, and in particular the grain size was measured on backscattered
electron images showing channeling contrast. To this purpose the SEM was
operated at 6 KV and an annular solid state backscattered electron detector
was used. This procedure allows the measurement of the grain size without
the need of metallographic etching, preserving so the surface for all the
subsequent experiments . . . Hydrogen content was measured "in situ" during
the electrolysis by the electrical resistivity change with a method already
described . . .

[Describing thin film:]

The grain size value was obtained using the Sherrer formula: which states a
link between the peak (h, 1, m) half height width and the average grain
size along the (h,l,m) direction. We found grain size from 150 to 350 A.
>From the peak shift it is possible to obtain the uniform strain by
differentiating the Bragg formula.

Scanning Auger Microscopy and Secondary Electron Microscopy have been used
to see that the Pd coverage on Ni is uniform . . .

[End of quotes]


Please try to imagine the daily round of work that De Ninno is engaged in.
Think about the instruments, knowledge, formulas and techniques she
described in these brief paragraphs, and remember that she and her
colleagues have written dozens of papers describing other procedures as
complex as these, and they have been doing this sort of thing every day for
decades. As far as I know, Scott Little is incapable of doing any of these
tasks. Perhaps I did not read his papers carefully enough, but based on his
lectures, papers and comments, I do not think he has access to a scanning
electron microscope, a vacuum annealing furnace, or an annular solid state
backscattered electron detector. He has measured no electrochemical
parameters such as OCV or loading by electrical resistivity, which most
electrochemists consider the essential first steps. He has done only a few
post-mortem analyses of cathodes. He knows little about what is happening
to his cathodes macroscopically or microscopically. He has never attempted
to characterize the microscopic performance, and the microscopic level is
where cold fusion happens! Little has said nothing about materials, and
materials are the key to cold fusion.

I cannot judge Little's knowledge of electrochemistry and material
sciences, but I suspect he has no idea what the Sherrer or Bragg formulas
are, or how they should be applied. He's never mentioned similar formulas
in his publications.

In short, Scott little is totally incapable of making a significant
scientific contribution to this field, and there is simply no comparison
between what he does on a daily basis, and what scientists like De Ninno,
McKubre, Storms and Mizuno do. Little does not have the background, the
knowledge, the experience, the instruments, or the funding to make a
contribution. He could assist in this research if he found himself at a
major lab for a year or two. After a few years he would have done as much
work as a post doc in electrochemistry, which would make him qualified,
naturally. Anyone with a scientific background who spends a few years
working on cold fusion at the professional level side-by-side with highly
experienced people will learn how to do it. Anyone who does not do that,
simply cannot contribute. You cannot re-invent, on your own, 150 years of
electrochemistry and material science. A highly motivated an extremely
talented person might master the material on his own by his own efforts,
but I do not think that Scott Little has plowed through the three volume
textbooks by Bockris.

At this point, people like Little and I can make only minor, unimportant
contributions to this field. Little could assist with calorimetry, which is
a minor issue. If a cold fusion scientist would cooperate closely with him,
and supply him with equipment and training, he might be able to confirm
excess heat in an experiment, if he was willing to run the same experiment
a hundred times in a row. I can contribute even less to the field, mainly
by helping Japanese scientists write better English papers. (Actually, I
have helped English speakers write better papers too -- scientists are
often lousy writers!)

In my opinion, no amateur has ever made a significant contribution to cold
fusion, and most of the professionals have blown it as well. I am not
suggesting that a person must have a Ph.D. before he can do advanced solid
state physics and material science. Ovshinky and other gifted people
without formal credentials have made great contributions to these fields.
However, I *am* saying that in order to do cold fusion, *you must do
advanced solid state physics and material science research*. Otherwise your
experiments are a shot in the dark. Even if they work (which is highly
unlikely) you will have no idea why they worked or how to reproduce them,
and you will not be in a position to describe your work formally, make
additional progress, or help others reproduce.

William Shockley was anything but an experimentalist. One day in 1940, a
scientist named Wooldridge found him fiddling around in the lab with a
piece of oxidized copper, which "had apparently been cut out of some very
old copper back porch screen with very dull scissors." Shockley was
attempting to position to wires so they barely touched the green oxide
coating. He hoped to adjust the voltage applied to the mesh to control the
current flow. In other words, he was trying to make a crude transistor.
Wooldridge later wrote: "so here he had the three elements of a transistor,
these two wires and the copper screen. Of course, he was *orders of
magnitude* away from anything that would work!" [Riordan and Hoddeson, p.
86] An amateur who is blindly experimenting without measuring
electrochemical parameters and without doing sophisticated material science
is flailing around in the dark, just as Shockley was in 1940. You might be
orders of magnitude away from anything that will work, or -- for all anyone
knows -- you might be next-door to extravagance success, perhaps one tweak
away from a deadly burst of neutrons. You have no way of knowing, and even
if you do achieve success, you will have no way of replicating it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 13 00:45:55 1999
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Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 03:40:55 -0500
From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Scott Little is NOT doing research!
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Jed said:

>> Little could assist with calorimetry, which is a minor issue. If a cold
fusion scientist would cooperate closely with him,  and supply him with
equipment and training, he might be able to confirm excess heat in an
experiment, if he was willing to run the same experiment a hundred times in
a row. <<

I might be being dim here, but isn't this what Scott is trying to do?

I take Jed's point about research competence, but surely a calorimetric
confirmation by a competent Engineer is all that is really needed as far as
BLP is concerned (or at least as far as Vortexians are concerned).  I have
never thought that Scott was attempting "research" in the true sense -
replication yes, but my experience in the past has demonstrated to me that
to try to re-invent someone else's wheel by simply reading their published
literature is fraught with difficulty.  As Jed said earlier:

>>  (Actually, I have helped English speakers write better papers too --
scientists are often lousy writers!) <<

Touche!

Norman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 13 03:42:39 1999
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Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 02:52:09 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Scott Little is NOT doing research!
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At 2:44 PM 2/12/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>With all due respect for Scott Little, he is not an over-unity researcher.
>He is not even in the running to become one. He is about as far from being
>a scientist as I am from being Niklaus Wirth.
[snip]

I suppose Jed is just trying to fill time while most of the action has
moved over to vortexC.  (I subscribed there briefly, but the load was too
heavy for me to handle with my present busy schedule.)  However, this kind
of personal attack is unwarranted, groundless and unprovoked.  It is not
justifiable, even if provoked, and is a clear violation of the spirit and
rules of this forum.  It also strikes me as coming from a most suspicious
background, in that the two of you are competitors in the search for
investment opportunities in free energy.

I don't have time at the moment to respond to this other than to say it is
a shame to see such a personal attack, especially on the basis of
supposedly amateur work, on one of the professionals of the list (granted
no PHD in physics, but Hal Puthoff fills that bill at Earthtech) and one of
the very few who is actually *doing* work and posting the material to this
list.  If credentials are so important to Jed I would like to ask what his
credentials are to permit him to make such glaring attacks?

My main response to this is to file Jed's attack away for the day when it
is most effective to pull it out demsonstrate the errors of his present
ajudications.  However, I would like to point out at this time that Jed
seems to make the underliying and probably false assumption that cold
fusion or even LENR constitutes the significant and likely successful part
of the efforts underway today in the search for free energy.  Although CF
and LENR have had a major motivational role in many of the activities in
the free energy arena, there is no reason to think the major breakthroughs
are likely be in these specific areas, or that that is where Earthtech will
uncover success first, assuming success is ever uncovered.

It is also strikes me as a mistake to assume that calorimetry is the only
game in town.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 13 05:11:31 1999
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Research and Development
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:06:56 -0500
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I view Research as the discovery of new physical principles or phenomena,
and Development as the characterization of new phenomena and their
application to useful tasks and devices.

Looking for the transistor effect in some oxidized copper is D, not R, for
the rectifying semiconductor properties of  copper oxide were well known.
Transistors were D, not R.

A refined calorimeter is the result of a development program. Measuring
devices with said calorimeter is testing, which is a legitimate part of the
R & D cycle.

Most computer programming is D.

Exploration of the metallurgical properties of palladium in relation to
cathode activity is R, for the governing principle is not known, but there
must be a pony in here somewhere (punch line of an old joke).

In the real world, R & D get blended as two parts of whole. You make a
discovery, often by accident, and then utilize known knowledge and skills to
elucidate it. A good R & D man is often a tinkerer, designing and building
his own equipment.

In our own field, F&P did R, but they did so against a background of
discoveries of the remarkable properties of palladium and fusion theory,
looking to see if the critical conditions could exist in the solid state.

Mills' BLP process is R, for his first cell was designed from a theoretical
model he worked out.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 13 08:08:02 1999
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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
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Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:05:50 -0800
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*** Forwarded message, originally written by Unitel Inc. on 11-Feb-99 ***
The purpose of this email is to RAISE THE CONSCIOUSNESS of the masses.

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demonstrate technology capable of providing mankind with a practical and
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Unitel's technology is PATENTED in multiple countries and supported by Ph.D.
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It is important that people realize that we have the ability to explore our
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Unitel is motivated by the knowledge that we will giving one of the
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                Just Kicking It,
                 ---Andrew

-- 
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            `-'                                               `-'

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 13 09:21:45 1999
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Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:30:53 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Research and Development
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At 8:06 AM 2/13/99, Mike Carrell wrote:
>I view Research as the discovery of new physical principles or phenomena,
>and Development as the characterization of new phenomena and their
>application to useful tasks and devices.


This definition seems to separate the act from the results.  It seems to me
if the intent of the act, however much engineering is involved, is
discovering new principles or even proving new principles through
replication, that the act itself should be called research.  This is
especially true when there are insufficient engineering principles involved
to design a working device with even modest certainty.  I think the more
you have to tinker the more you are doing research vs development, but the
line between the two is often pretty grey.  As you say, in the real world,
R & D get blended as two parts of whole.  However, I think intent of the
act must play a role in the definition as well.  If the intent is not
development, but rather discovery, then it is research.  Replication is a
basic part of science.  On the other hand, to the degree replication and
publication (other that via patents) is avoided, the act of discovery,
whatever the intent, seems somehow diminished to a more developmental role.
Though Edison undoubtedly discovered new scientific principles when
looking for the light bulb, the act was intended to be developmental and
his subsequent actions, seem to bear that out.



>
>Looking for the transistor effect in some oxidized copper is D, not R, for
>the rectifying semiconductor properties of  copper oxide were well known.
>Transistors were D, not R.
>
>A refined calorimeter is the result of a development program. Measuring
>devices with said calorimeter is testing, which is a legitimate part of the
>R & D cycle.
>
>Most computer programming is D.
>
>Exploration of the metallurgical properties of palladium in relation to
>cathode activity is R, for the governing principle is not known, but there
>must be a pony in here somewhere (punch line of an old joke).
>
>In the real world, R & D get blended as two parts of whole. You make a
>discovery, often by accident, and then utilize known knowledge and skills to
>elucidate it. A good R & D man is often a tinkerer, designing and building
>his own equipment.
>
>In our own field, F&P did R, but they did so against a background of
>discoveries of the remarkable properties of palladium and fusion theory,
>looking to see if the critical conditions could exist in the solid state.
>
>Mills' BLP process is R, for his first cell was designed from a theoretical
>model he worked out.
>
>Mike Carrell

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 13 10:10:31 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Scott,

R.O. Briggs took exception to my characterization of your efforts.  

I hesitated for a while before sending in my six-reason post Message-ID:
<66eaf417.36c43652 aol.com>; Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:10:26 EST.  I knew that
it was open to the interpretation that R. O. Briggs put on it and the
interpretation that you may have put on it.

I consider you a competent and professional researcher and a professional
scientist, and one capable of making a contribution.  You have the skills and
the resources needed to make a Mills-type experiment work.  

Fleischmann-Pons-type experiments take an enormous amount of persistence, and
even in the most persistent, experienced, skillful and knowledgeable hands,
they only yield results half the time, as Ed Storms has shown over the years.
Mills-type experiments are simpler and more reliable and yield stronger
results to boot.  Even an advanced amateur like Vince Cockeram can do better
than the complete blanks you've come up with in your Mills-type work.

I think the difference is that Vince believes that Mills has gotten real
results and is right in his hydrino explanation of excess heat, and you don't
think there's really anything there; so Vince tries to do things right, and in
your Mills-type experiments, you really haven't.  Even a non-techie like me
can spot serious errors in your replication attempts.

I agree that Mills does value independent tests of his devices (there are now
several devices in about three different technological generations).  That's
one reason I'd like to see him take your offer seriously.  But he does have
honest reasons for not doing so, and I think I outlined some of them.

You didn't address the reasons that I put forward, and in a way that implies
that you were offended by what you considered to be dishonest reasons.  That's
understandable, because I was blunt, and because we seem to have very
different outlooks on Mills' work; but I don't think you're coming to grips
with it.  

Nevertheless, I wouldn't consider you a hostile witness at BLP, as I'm afraid
they might, just a very skeptical one.  That's a crucial difference in my
opinion, and another reason I'd like to see them take your offer seriously.

Unfortunately, the response to your last email was the same robotic form
response as before.

(A question for R. O. Briggs:  why do you consider Mills to be "a real loner"?
He has twenty-three full-time employees now.  I think he can use even more
help from outside his company and that the material on his website shows that
he's been asking for more outside help and getting it from many quarters.)

Tom Stolper


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 13 13:30:18 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Scott Little is NOT doing research!
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I wrote if Scott Little "was willing to run the same experiment a hundred
times in a row" he might be able to confirm excess heat. Norman Horwood asks:

     I might be being dim here, but isn't this what Scott is trying to do?

He has not run the same experiment more than four or five times, over a few
months, as far as I know. 

What he is attempting to do is the same thing we are attempting to do:
engineering verification. This is not scientific research. What we do, and
what Scott Little is doing, can add nothing to our knowledge of cold
fusion, and it could not lead to control or scaling up of the reaction even
if we continued for a thousand years.


     I take Jed's point about research competence, but surely a calorimetric
     confirmation by a competent Engineer is all that is really needed as far
     as BLP is concerned (or at least as far as Vortexians are concerned).

Quite right, but this is not research. If Scott Little is given a good cell
he can confirm it works. He is like a test pilot; he cannot build the
airplane but he can fly it. If something goes wrong with the cell he has no
way of knowing what the problem might be, because he has no instruments or
training. Regarding his offer to "help," you have to bear in mind that the
competent scientists working in cold fusion already know how to do
calorimetry as well as Little does. They do not need his help. Calorimetry
is a small and relatively easy part of their job. As for the incompetent
scientists . . . they may have difficulty with calorimetry but I doubt
Scott would find it worth his time to help them.


     I have never thought that Scott was attempting "research" in the true
     sense - replication yes . . .

My point is that he is attempting to replicate without measuring the
critical parameters and without detailed knowledge of what the scientists
are doing. The experts say -- and the papers confirm -- that even when you
know a great deal about these experiments, you are skilled in the art, and
you measure every known parameter, you still have little chance of success.
If you do not measure the critical parameters than your chance of success
is about as great as Shockley's chances were of making a transistor from
the old piece of screen in 1940.


     . . . but my experience in the past has demonstrated to me that to try
     to re-invent someone else's wheel by simply reading their published
     literature is fraught with difficulty.

It is like a trying to remove an appendix without ever attending medical
school. The published literature includes multivolume textbooks on
electrochemistry.

Horace Heffner writes:

     I suppose Jed is just trying to fill time while most of the action has
     moved over to vortexC.

What is VortexC?


     However, this kind of personal attack is unwarranted, groundless and
     unprovoked.

This was not a personal attack. It was warranted because many people here
have confused what Scott Little does with scientific research. People have
suggested that his attempts to blindly replicate cold fusion has some
bearing on the results achieved by scientists. My statements were grounded
in the literature. I quoted examples from De Ninno; I could have quoted
thousands of other paragraphs from the literature describing techniques
which Scott Little is incapable of doing, and instruments he does not have.


     It is not justifiable, even if provoked, and is a clear violation of the
     spirit and rules of this forum.

The rules of this forum allow me to point out obvious deficiencies in
technique & instruments, and to quote literature to back up my statements.
That is all I have done.


     It also strikes me as coming from a most suspicious background . . .

Our backgrounds are quite different. Scott is trying to engineering
verification of cold fusion (which is like trying make your own transistor
in 1950). I am a contributing editor to a magazine. We are not competitors.
In any case, the facts speak for themselves. Every technique I cited is
beyond Scott Little's capability, and so is nearly every technique
described by Storms, McKubre, Mizuno, Fleischmann, Bockris, Will and the
other acknowledged experts. The only technique Little has mastered is
calorimetry, which is a fraction of what you must do to replicate the cold
fusion effect. I might add that this is not only my opinion. The experts
have said the same thing about Scott Little, sometimes more forcefully.
They have also told me they think our replication efforts are premature and
misguided. I respond by saying that we never try to do experiments which
the authors claim are difficult.


     . . . in that the two of you are competitors in the search for
     investment opportunities in free energy.

I publish papers, and I have advised investors, but I am not an investor.


     "[Little is] one of the very few who is actually *doing* work and
     posting the material to this list.  

No, he is not actually doing work. That is the point of confusion. He is
going through the motions, but for him to actually do work, he would have
to investigate the metallurgical and electrochemical properties of the
cathodes.


     If credentials are so important to Jed I would like to ask what his
     credentials are to permit him to make such glaring attacks?

I said quite clearly that credentials are not the issue, because Ovshinsky
and other people without credentials have made major contributions to solid
state physics.  The question is not whether you have credentials, but
whether you are *capable of doing the same kind of work* as people with
credentials do for a living. Scott Little clearly is not capable: none of
his papers describes the kind of efforts you must make to replicate cold
fusion. As I said, quite clearly, if Little had a couple of year intense
post-graduate level training at a laboratory, I am sure he could master
this subject, but he cannot master it on his own, because he cannot on his
own, without textbooks and guidance, recapitulate 150 years of
electrochemistry.

I made it abundantly clear in this message and all previous messages that I
am incapable of performing these experiments. My capabilities are not the
issue; I have never said that my experiments can be used to judge the
validity of cold fusion claims. For that matter, the experiments I have
participated in (in minor roles) were performed by Mallove and Tinsley, who
were loaded with credentials.


     However, I would like to point out at this time that Jed seems to make
     the underliying and probably false assumption that cold fusion or even
     LENR constitutes the significant and likely successful part of the
     efforts underway today in the search for free energy.

This is a misunderstanding on Heffner's part. I never made that assumption.
The topic was the BLP experiments, which I consider a form of cold fusion.
I cannot comment on Scott Little's research into other forms of free
energy. I know nothing about his other research and practically nothing
about these other free energy devices. I have not read papers about them.


Mike Carrell writes:

     Most computer programming is D.

D for drudgery. Or R&D for rote and drudgery.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 13 14:55:54 1999
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Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:53:02 -0500
From: Soo <Soojay compuserve.com>
Subject: Pi in the Sky
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The General Assembly of Indiana declared in 1897 that they weren't going to
put up with all that frivolous nonsense after the decimal point in Pi and
they were staying with the concrete figures.  So Pi, within the confines of
that state only, were deemed to be worth a solid 4.

As a consequence every single clock in the State gained roughly 15 minutes
an hour.

- Soo
(I'm hoping someone from Indiana can explain this one to me)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 13 16:53:22 1999
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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In a message dated 2/13/99 1:27:04 PM Pacific Standard Time,
JedRothwell infinite-energy.com writes:

<< Quite right, but this is not research.  If Scott Little is given a good
cell
 he can confirm it works.  He is like a test pilot; he cannot build the
 airplane but he can fly it.  If something goes wrong with the cell he has no
 way of knowing what the problem might be, because he has no instruments or
 training.  Regarding his offer to "help," you have to bear in mind that the
 competent scientists working in cold fusion already know how to do
 colorimetry as well as Little does.  They do not need his help.  Colorimetry
 is a small and relatively easy part of their job. As for the incompetent
 scientists . . . they may have difficulty with colorimetry but I doubt
 Scott would find it worth his time to help them. >>

Gee Jed, the last thing I intended to do was engage in a philosophical or
semantic dual with Jed Rothwell for whom I have great admiration.  My high
opinion of the work done by Scott Little in no way detracts from my respect
for McKubre, Storms, Fleishman or any of the terrific electrochemists and
other scientists working in the search for new energy.  

Aside from the qualifications of any specific individuals, however, my
definition of a scientist would be something like:  a person seeking
information about some aspect of the physical universe by applying the
scientific method.  The scientific method is, of course, initiated by a
hypothesis and concluded by an experiment.  Some types of research require
hundreds or thousands of variations on the hypothesis and experiment but that
doesn't define science.  One reasonable hypothesis followed by one conclusive
experiment is science.  (Perhaps we could argue about what the meaning of "is"
is.)
Did you ever read about Louis Alverez' X-raying of the great pyramid?  One
hypothesis, one experiment...great science.  On the other hand, it's good that
we have people qualified and willing to do the tedious work at the molecular
and crystal structure level in palladium.  Some of them are scientists too.

I believe that the hypothesis Scott is usually applying in his search for
truth is that a specific device, developed and reported by a responsible
person, produces over unity energy.  He then does experiments to test the
hypothesis.  (Sounds a lot like research to me, but I don't think Scott cares
what I call it.)  Scott enters each experiment with unbelievable optimism.  Of
course, the more help he can get from the creator of the device, the more
valid his experiments will be, and this is the problem with BLP.  Scott is the
first to acknowledge that his embodiment of BLP reactor is not the same as
Mills'.  He has asked Mills for help several times and is hoping.  

Very best regards,

Bob Briggs

p.s.
You're right.  Very few test pilots can build a plane by themselves.  Many
test pilots are just good technicians (just like many PhDs) but quite a few
are very good scientists who happen to be qualified to perform their own
experiments.  Come to think of it, many Ph.D. scientists cannot build a
calorimeter.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 13 19:46:59 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Scott Little is NOT doing research!
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At 7:50 PM 2/13/99, BriggsRO aol.com wrote:
[snip]
>Scott enters each experiment with unbelievable optimism.
[snip]

Yes - he even named it: "pre-experiment glow."  I've had that feeling
myself from time to time.  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 13 20:33:52 1999
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At 04:20 PM 2/13/99 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Every technique I cited is
>beyond Scott Little's capability, and so is nearly every technique
>described by Storms, McKubre, Mizuno, Fleischmann, Bockris, Will and the
>other acknowledged experts. The only technique Little has mastered is
>calorimetry...

Bullshit!  You've never even set foot in our lab.  I'd appreciate it if you
would keep your disparaging guesses about my capabilities to yourself.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 13 20:34:20 1999
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At 01:07 PM 2/13/99 EST, Tstolper aol.com wrote:

>I consider you a competent and professional researcher and a professional
>scientist, and one capable of making a contribution.

Thank you.

>Even an advanced amateur like Vince Cockeram can do better
>than the complete blanks you've come up with in your Mills-type work.

Give me a break!  No offense to Vince but his "calorimetry" was so crude
that you cannot conclude ANYTHING from his results...except maybe that it
would be worthwhile testing his cell in a real calorimeter.

>I think the difference is that Vince believes that Mills has gotten real
>results and is right in his hydrino explanation of excess heat, and you don't
>think there's really anything there; so Vince tries to do things right,
and in
>your Mills-type experiments, you really haven't.

You are mistaken.  Vince's cell was his own novel idea involving a glow
discharge in a hydrogen atmosphere with metallic K present (I supplied the
K to him). To the contrary, I studied all of Mills experiment reports,
chose the one that seemed to best represent them, employed the same K
compounds that Mills mentions, tried both kinds of filaments (W & Pt) that
Mills has used, and follow, as well as possible, the sketchy protocols he
gave.

Regarding your comment that I have "gotten into a debunking mode".  That is
simply incorrect.  I am in "get the right answer mode".  I begin every
experiment with the eager hope that it will produce real excess heat.  To
date, NONE of them have.  As a result, some folks loudly proclaim that I
can't do the experiments right.  They conveniently fail to mention an
alternative explanation: the original investigator didn't do the
calorimetry right.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 13 21:18:58 1999
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   At 10:34 PM 2/13/99 -0600, Scott Little wrote:
>Regarding your comment that I have "gotten into a debunking mode".  That is
>simply incorrect.  I am in "get the right answer mode".  I begin every
>experiment with the eager hope that it will produce real excess heat.  To
>date, NONE of them have.  As a result, some folks loudly proclaim that I
>can't do the experiments right.  They conveniently fail to mention an
>alternative explanation: the original investigator didn't do the
>calorimetry right.
>
>
>Scott Little 
>EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
>512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
>little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little
>
>
    
  Scott:

   The KS experiment might have given a small amount of heat
Scott, but you have made clear that even though it was at the
appropriate expected level for nickel (per my published papers),
you were not really all that interested in looking closer.

  With all due respect for your efforts, an alternate set of
explanations is as follows:
the failure to either go back and do it again when it was pointed
out to you WHERE to look, and/or the failure
to use your system to examine purported ZPE systems, suggests
the original experimenters did do the calorimetry correctly, and
that ZPE(vacuum) may be bogus.

   Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 13 21:55:31 1999
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Scott Little writes:

     Bullshit!  You've never even set foot in our lab.  I'd appreciate it if
     you would keep your disparaging guesses about my capabilities to
     yourself.

I am not guessing and nothing I have said is disparaging. Since, as you
say, I have never set foot in the lab, I must base all of my statements on
what you have published and said during your lectures -- I never guess.
Perhaps you have done unpublished research with instruments you never
discussed, but I can hardly be faulted for not knowing about that!

You have never mentioned any of the instruments or techniques described in
the cold fusion literature, except in your post-run analysis of the CETI
beads. I listed specific instruments, techniques and formulae used by De
Ninno which you never employed. I could post a hundred more examples. When
you discussed the Storms work, you told me that you have not attempted the
techniques he describes in "How to Perform the Pons-Fleischmann
Experiment," such as measuring the expansion of the metal and the OCV. You
said you visited him, observed these techniques, and decided they are
beyond your capability. (We decided they are too difficult for us, too.)
Storms also told me that you have not attempted them. He says NEDO did not
try them either. If you and NEDO do not do those things, then by definition
you are not doing a cold fusion experiment, and no conclusions can be drawn
from your results. Since it is impossible to buy pre-tested cathodes,
either you make them yourself with these techniques, or you have perhaps 1
chance in 100 of success at random. Actually, with most metal you have
virtually zero chance.

I might add that if this is bullshit, you will hear the very bullshit from
professional electrochemists, if you care to ask them. I did not arrive at
this opinion on my own. Do you claim you know more than they do?


Bob Briggs writes:

     I believe that the hypothesis Scott is usually applying in his search
     for truth is that a specific device, developed and reported by a
     responsible person, produces over unity energy.  He then does
     experiments to test the hypothesis. . . .

In the case of cold fusion, he is incapable of doing the experiments. He
has not measured the critical parameters that would tell him whether he is
succeeding or failing. This is like trying to do calorimetry without
measuring temperature. It is like trying to drive a car blindfolded.


     Scott enters each experiment with unbelievable optimism.

His attitude is irrelevant. He enters conventional Pd-D cold fusion
experiments without preparation, skill or proper instrumentation. I have no
idea whether he can do the magic motor experiments or ZPE measurements
correctly. I cannot judge, and I have not read any papers about this anyway.

Let me repeat what I wrote to Horace Heffner: I am talking about
conventional CF here -- nothing else. Not because CF is the only game in
town, or necessarily the best, but because it is the only game that *I*
have read enough about to comment on intelligently. I can cite a few
hundred CF techniques and instruments that Scott Little has neglected; I
know nothing about his work with other over-unity devices. As far as I
know, no other over-unity devices exist, except the Griggs machine . . .
but I do not know much and I would never make that a firm assertion.


     Of course, the more help he can get from the creator of the device, the
     more valid his experiments will be, and this is the problem with BLP.

I do not know enough about BLP to comment on their claims. Do they say
their device can be operated by unskilled people who do not measure
critical electrochemical parameters? (For that matter, are they still doing
electrochem?) If that is what they say, then of course Little could verify.
So could I; so could most readers of this forum. But I doubt the thing
works without expert tweaking, and  BLP does not cooperate, so I think
there is little hope of verifying the claims. I would not waste time on
them. Some CF scientists, including Mitch Swartz, have made bold claims for
large effects, yet they refuse to cooperate or allow third party
verification. I dismiss all of these people, categorically. Others, like
Storms and McKubre, make less bold claims. They have opened their labs to
outside experts, they have sent used cathodes to other labs for analysis
(often destructive analysis). They explain convincingly why they cannot
share cathodes more often. Obviously, this is the way science must be done,
and I accept their reasons for not sharing cathodes.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 13 23:22:51 1999
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At 12:51 AM 2/14/99 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote, in prose
that was otherwise, good and fairly accurate:

> Some CF scientists, including Mitch Swartz, have made bold claims for
>large effects, yet they refuse to cooperate or allow third party
>verification.

   
   Absolute nonsense.   

  We have shown that nickel light water
systems can yield a modest level of excess heat IF the
system is driven correctly AND if the correct electrochemistry
is done.   Modest - as in LOW LEVEL, compared to
the Pd, D2O systems.
e.g. Swartz, M, 1998,  "Optimal Operating Point 
Characteristics of Nickel Light Water Experiments",
Proceedings of ICCF-7  
and Swartz, M, 1998, Improved Electrolytic Reactor Performance
Using p-Notch System Operation and Gold Anodes, Transactions
 of the American Nuclear Association, Nashville, Tenn 1998 
Meeting, (ISSN:0003-018X publisher LaGrange, Ill) 78, 84-85. 
   Third party verification has included professors
at MIT and many others, despite Jed's incorrect statement
which is endlessly repeated again.

  NOTA BENE:
  It is Jed who got "kilowatts" which is a bold claim,
and one which is correctable by the papers listed at
http://world.std.com/~mica/jetrefs.html  
including Swartz, M, 1996, "Improved Calculations 
Involving Energy Release Using a Buoyancy Transport 
Correction", Journal of New Energy, 1, 3, 219-221, 
and Swartz, M, 1996, "Potential for Positional Variation 
in Flow Calorimetric Systems", Journal of New Energy, 1, 
126-130.  

  Hope that clarifies.
   Dr. Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 14 08:55:23 1999
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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 Hi Jed,

Perhaps our conversation has gotten a bit off topic for vortex-L.  Of course,
I want the last word, but why don't you e-mail any further thoughts to me
personally.  Here are my last public comments on the subject:

1)  BLP has abandoned electrochemistry many years ago and are now in the gas
regime. You should read the informative article in Infinite Energy a couple
issues ago. (Good publication!)

2) The reason that Scott's attitude is important is to point out that he is
not part of the "vast right-wing conspiracy".

3) The qualification at the very top of the list for a scientist is respect
for truth.

Respectfully,

Bob Briggs  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 14 09:11:42 1999
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Mitchell Swartz wrote:

<snip>

> and that ZPE(vacuum) may be bogus.

That we may be able to tap it may be bogus, but it certainly exists.
Reasons? Casimir effect, Van der Waals forces, and Robert Forward's
experiment purporting to demonstrate the ability to tap the ZPF.

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 14 09:14:48 1999
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Tom Stopler asked why I use the word "loner" to describe Randall Mills.  

My observation is based not on his 23 person  personal retinue, but on his
very restricted interaction with other scientists and engineers working in
related fields.  He avoids the ICCF, he doesn't answer serious, responsible
inquiries and he was very upset when Infinite Energy published an interview
even though it was very favorable toward him and his work. 

In this regard, I don't think that anything Scott has done, published or said
has any influence on Mills' response to Scott's request for help since he got
the same response that several of us got well before Scott did his hydrino
experiment.  My guess is that Mills never saw Scott's communication.  I expect
that he is isolated by his organization.  It was answered by a Mr. Good who is
the same person that gave me a non-response a year or so ago.  I don't think
Mills needs or wants communication with the rest of the O.U. community.

Bob Briggs

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 14 09:51:38 1999
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Bob Briggs wrote:


>Tom Stopler asked why I use the word "loner" to describe Randall Mills.
>
>My observation is based not on his 23 person  personal retinue, but on his
>very restricted interaction with other scientists and engineers working in
>related fields.  He avoids the ICCF, he doesn't answer serious, responsible
>inquiries and he was very upset when Infinite Energy published an interview
>even though it was very favorable toward him and his work.
>
>In this regard, I don't think that anything Scott has done, published or
said
>has any influence on Mills' response to Scott's request for help since he
got
>the same response that several of us got well before Scott did his hydrino
>experiment.  My guess is that Mills never saw Scott's communication.  I
expect
>that he is isolated by his organization.  It was answered by a Mr. Good who
is
>the same person that gave me a non-response a year or so ago.  I don't
think
>Mills needs or wants communication with the rest of the O.U. community.


I have talked at length to Mills on two occasions and he has entered into
correspondence with another member of the vortex community on a private
basis, whom I will not identify. It is simply that this person has something
to offer which is relevant to Mills' present needs and interests. "Loner"
does not describe his personality adequately. I do think he may be an
extraordinary person, certain of his vision and program.

Bob's last line above is to the point. I have stated here repeatedly that he
does not want or need any association with the cold fusion community, and is
reluctant for references to BLP appearing in IE for that reason. I have a
review of the current BLP position in the next issue of IE (#24), which
makes very clear the distinctions between the BLP process and LENR. He does
not need the approval of any member of the vortex community; his audience is
large corporations with lots of money who will enter into alliances with
him. He has produced a significant quantity of HHCs, which require robust
operation of his energy cells. This, more than any calorimetry, is proof
that the process operates.

The next issue of IE is over 100 pages and contains the story of data
manipulation at MIT and its consequences for the ERAB report and the
government non-support of CF research.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 14 14:10:47 1999
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    I like being on the vortex-digest because it gives me time to think
and respond slowly.  And sometimes that helps me minimize anger.
    Certainly Jed, often a speaker of clarity and courage, showed that
"to fail in thinking is human" when he classified Scott Little as a
non-experimenter.
    EarthTech, with Scott and Hal Puthoff is the LEADING laboratory in
new energy and power development.   Scott unselfishly publishes
considerable work when he tries to verify that discoveries have been
made.  And so far he has found that they have NOT BEEN MADE, usually
because the calorimetry was not properly done.  Calorimetry is not
trivial due to the large number of thermodynamic and physical variables
in a complete system.  Calorimetry is often subtle in ways unknown to
the physical chemists, etc. who get a bright idea on producing power a
new way.  Simply, Calorimetry has more variables than most of us are
accustomed  to handling. (I had to learn it for superconductivity work
at Stanford).
     EarthTech does all this work at their own expense and openly
publishes the results for all to see.  You have no idea what other work
Scott and Hal are doing at EarthTech  so you would be better off being
quiet about such opinions, if you do not wish to appear ignorant.
    Do I know what research is?  Yes, one of my accomplishments was
originating the electron-positron collider and helicity theory as ideal
tools for high energy physics
40 years ago.  There are others, during my tenures at 4 universities,
but this Email is not about me.
    If you have not been a researcher yourself, who devoted years to the
clarifiication and precision of each of the items in your experiments,
then you may not know what  research requires in order to belong to the
club.
Frank Chilton, Ph.D.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 14 20:37:30 1999
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Subject: Re: Correction to Mr. Rothwell
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Mitch Swartz writes:

	Third party verification has included professors at MIT and many
	others . . .

I stand corrected! I know nothing about these professors. Please tell us,
Mitch:

Who are they? Names, phone numbers, e-mail addresses, etc.

Where did they publish their observations?

Of course, if the names and observations are secret, that makes the
professors members of your conspiracy of silence . . . (or perhaps a
figment of your imagination?) In that case, I sit down again, uncorrected.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 14 20:55:20 1999
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Frank Chilton writes:

     Certainly Jed, often a speaker of clarity and courage, showed that "to
     fail in thinking is human" when he classified Scott Little as a
     non-experimenter.

I said he is a non-scientist; he is not doing cold fusion research. I do
not know what he is doing in ZPE or other fields.


     EarthTech, with Scott and Hal Puthoff is the LEADING laboratory in new
     energy and power development.

Not in cold fusion they aren't! Over the last ten years, experts like
Fleischmann, Storms, McKubre, De Ninno, Cravens and others have published
voluminous checklists of steps you must take in order to do a cold fusion
experiment. To the best of my knowledge, based on the papers published by
EarthTech, they have not performed any of the recommended steps.


     Scott unselfishly publishes considerable work . . .

Look, we all agee that Scott is a jolly good fellow who knows more about
calorimetry and chemistry than I ever will, and unselfish as all get-out,
but what the hell does that have to do with I said, and what the experts
have said about his work? The issue here has nothing do with Scott's
personality or devotion to duty. We are talking about the instruments and
procedures described in his publications -- THAT'S ALL.


     . . . when he tries to verify that discoveries have been made.  And so
     far he has found that they have NOT BEEN MADE . . .

He has not done the experiment, so his findings are meaningless.


     If you have not been a researcher yourself, who devoted years to the
     clarifiication and precision of each of the items in your experiments,
     then you may not know what  research requires in order to belong to the
     club.

Yes, well, that is why I am citing papers by experts who know what this
research requires. Clearly, Little did not do what they recommended.
Neither did NEDO and neither did many other researchers. We, of course, are
incapable of doing these procedures, as I said. That is the one and only
point I am trying to make. This is not an attack on Scott Little or anyone
else. I am merely pointing out important technical problems with Little's
research which, in my opinion, invalidate his conclusion. Agree or
disagree, but stop talking about Scott's personality, (and my personality!)
because these subjects have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he
failed to measure loading, expansion, grain size, etc. , etc. End of story!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 14 21:50:20 1999
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Subject: The unfamilliar, invisible cathode
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Someone here talked about the phenomenon of people looking at an unfamiliar
objects and seeing nothing. When you look at a cathode through a microscope
(or SEM), you probably see nothing. I see nothing. When an electrochemist
looks, he sees enough to write a textbook or a PhD thesis. He sees 20 years
of work. Trained experts see more than ordinary folks. Steven Spielberg
watches about 100 new movies a year. He remembers nearly every frame and
can discuss a movie he has seen recently in detail for hours, or days. That
is because he has been at it for years. I am a programmer; after I run a
new program through its paces, I can write a 50 page report describing what
I saw, where other people would have difficulty filling out a one-page
questionnaire. I could spend days with the programmers discussing my
observations. A person who has not spent half his life cranking code does
not have that skill. A farmer can look at an orange grove for a few minutes
and tell you more about it than you ever imagined anyone could know. That
is the point I am trying to make about Scott Little and other non-experts
who have tried to replicate CF over the years.

Unless you have the eyes to see, from many years of experience, you are not
an electrochemist and you cannot judge what is happening to a CF cathode.
Oriani said that in 50 year of research, he has never seen such a complex
electrochemical reaction. There are HUNDREDS of difficult, unresolved
questions about it. That is why CF is so difficult to replicate. That is
why it takes hundreds of thousands of dollars of high tech equipment and
years of training to do anything in CF. It is small object undergoing
immensely complex reactions, probably as complex as a tokamak reactor in
action, and it may be as difficult to understand and control as a tokamak.
People seem to believe that small = simple, but size has nothing to do with
complexity. A living cell is more complex than, say, the Empire State
Building.

- Jed

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Jed said:

>>  That is the point I am trying to make about Scott Little and other
non-experts who have tried to replicate CF over the years. <<

I couldn't agree more!  But,  surely that is why Scott has offered to take
his - admittedly good - calorimeter to a working cell rather than try to
replicate the complex structure and fail again due to his own lack of
specific experience.

Now, it is still the case, that none of the _real_ experts who claim to
have _real_ ou working cells have taken him up on his offer - for various
reasons - and informed onlookers, admittedly not experts in
electrochemistry in some cases (like moi), are beginning to have doubts
about even the most prestigious experts' claims of ou.

Why do they all start to sound like the late Stan Meyer?  Claims of high
performance;  claims of high financial backing;  high secrecy;  refusal to
allow anyone in from outside;  high volumes of literature making claims.

Its a bloody shame IMHO.

Norman

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-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, February 14, 1999 10:48 PM
Subject: The unfamilliar, invisible cathode

How many Bolts of "Invisible Cloth" do you sell in a year , Jed?  :-)

Regards,    Frederick

Jed Frothwell wrote:

>Someone here talked about the phenomenon of people looking at an unfamiliar
>objects and seeing nothing. When you look at a cathode through a microscope
>(or SEM), you probably see nothing. I see nothing. When an electrochemist
>looks, he sees enough to write a textbook or a PhD thesis. He sees 20 years
>of work. Trained experts see more than ordinary folks. Steven Spielberg
>watches about 100 new movies a year. He remembers nearly every frame and
>can discuss a movie he has seen recently in detail for hours, or days. That
>is because he has been at it for years. I am a programmer; after I run a
>new program through its paces, I can write a 50 page report describing what
>I saw, where other people would have difficulty filling out a one-page
>questionnaire. I could spend days with the programmers discussing my
>observations. A person who has not spent half his life cranking code does
>not have that skill. A farmer can look at an orange grove for a few minutes
>and tell you more about it than you ever imagined anyone could know. That
>is the point I am trying to make about Scott Little and other non-experts
>who have tried to replicate CF over the years.
>
>Unless you have the eyes to see, from many years of experience, you are not
>an electrochemist and you cannot judge what is happening to a CF cathode.
>Oriani said that in 50 year of research, he has never seen such a complex
>electrochemical reaction. There are HUNDREDS of difficult, unresolved
>questions about it. That is why CF is so difficult to replicate. That is
>why it takes hundreds of thousands of dollars of high tech equipment and
>years of training to do anything in CF. It is small object undergoing
>immensely complex reactions, probably as complex as a tokamak reactor in
>action, and it may be as difficult to understand and control as a tokamak.
>People seem to believe that small = simple, but size has nothing to do with
>complexity. A living cell is more complex than, say, the Empire State
>Building.
>
>- Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 15 04:44:57 1999
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Subject: Re: The unfamilliar, invisible cathode
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At 02:59 AM 2/15/99 -0500, Norman Horwood wrote:

>Now, it is still the case, that none of the _real_ experts who claim to
>have _real_ ou working cells have taken him up on his offer..


  What makes you think that those who do hundreds [to thousands]
of experiments, and are familiar with calorimetry, need
(or want) demands from someone with less experience and
who may have what is [not necessarily] a "superior" system?

   Mitchell Swartz


     

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At 11:32 PM 2/14/99 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote 
demands and more ad hominems (his m.o. sometimes
unfortunately).

   Sorry, we do not do requests for demands.
  [ I personally have shared info with Jed (eg. at
LENR-2) and have ended up regreting it. ] 

  Jed would do much better focusing on the science, and
concentrating on making his own expts and/or
reports better as he sometimes does.

  If Jed actually reads the literature he has been 
avoiding, it may help, too.    ;-)X

     Mitchell Swartz



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Cc: <whitt.brantley msfc.nasa.gov>, <marc_willis@lerc.nasa.gov>,
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Subject: Re: Photoelectron Recoil Engine?
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 06:07:58 -0700
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To: Vortex

The photon "pressure" developed by absorption due to the photon momentum, mv
= E/c is usually taken as 2.94E9 watts/kg.

However,drawing on the photoelectric effect where E = hf = work function +
kinetic energy of the electrons, it would seem that recoil momentum mv of
the electrons in the absorber due to the Compton and Raman Effects that
convert some or all of the energy of the photons to momentum of the
electrons a momentum
"amplification" effect can occur.

This Might increase the force on a Photon Sail
so that about 3.0E3 kw/kg may be the photon energy required for an
absorbing/radiating sail.

With a Solar Flux of 1.36 kw/meter^2 in space, a sail about 50 meters on a
side might do the job,as opposed to a reflective sail requiring about a
kilometer on a side.

As an "Engine" the work developed:

dW = dQ * [(Th -Tc)/Th] although not very efficient might do it for pushing
spacecraft around:

acceleration, a = Force/Mass

velocity, v = vo + a*t

distance, s = vo*t + 1/2*a*t^2

In place of Solar radiation a cesium-137 radioisotope that emitts 0.262
watts/gram  of
0.514 Mev Betas (Electrons)and a 0.66 Mev gamma could be contained in a
glass vessel and the full radiation from the "plasma" somewhat like the
Crookes x-ray tube could be used to put the photons with momentum mv = E/c
on the sail where their shared energy E'would create recoil electrons with
momentum mv = m(2*E'/m)^1/2, and in some cases there would be relativistic
recoil electrons created along with some internal Cherenkov radiation.

DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME! :-)

Regards,  Frederick

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At 12:44 AM 2/15/99 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>Unless you have the eyes to see, from many years of experience, you are not
>an electrochemist and you cannot judge what is happening to a CF cathode.
>Oriani said that in 50 year of research, he has never seen such a complex
>electrochemical reaction. There are HUNDREDS of difficult, unresolved
>questions about it. That is why CF is so difficult to replicate. That is
>why it takes hundreds of thousands of dollars of high tech equipment and
>years of training to do anything in CF. It is small object undergoing
>immensely complex reactions, probably as complex as a tokamak reactor in
>action, and it may be as difficult to understand and control as a tokamak.
>People seem to believe that small = simple, but size has nothing to do with
>complexity. A living cell is more complex than, say, the Empire State
>Building.



   Much here is correct.  However, many other reasons
than material problems can contribute to failure (or success  ;-).
For example, failure to drive the system at the optimal operating point.

  refs:
Swartz. M., 1997, "Consistency of the Biphasic Nature of Excess Enthalpy in
Solid State Anomalous Phenomena with the Quasi-1-Dimensional Model of
Isotope Loading into a Material" Fusion Technology. 31, 63-74.  

Swartz. M., 1997, "Biphasic Behavior in Thermal Electrolytic Generators Using
Nickel Cathodes". lECEC 1997 Proceedings, paper #97009  

 and especially, with several other sources of error listed
Swartz. M.., 1998, Patterns of Failure in Cold Fusion Experiments,
Proceedings of
the 33RD Intersociety Engineering Conference on Energy Conversion,
IECEC-98-I229, Colorado Springs, CO, August 2-6, 1998.  


    Mitchell Swartz



    

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At 11:51 PM 2/14/99 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>....the fact that he
>failed to measure loading, expansion, grain size, etc. , etc.

I've measured loading many times, using the "orphaned oxygen" method
(McKubre), the resistivity method (McKubre, Claytor, etc.), and my own "gas
volume" method (in two series of proprietary gas loading experiments).

I've also measured Pd expansion as Storms does...with a micrometer.

These measurements didn't make my CF experiments work and they don't help
other researchers either.  Oh, there's plenty of papers presented at each
ICCF that hypothesize relationships between the excess heat effect and
name-your-favorite-parameter but there's simply not enough data to confirm
such hypotheses.  Oh, one lab may observe an apparent correlation in their
experiments but that's about as far as it goes. Since nobody can reproduce
the excess heat effect, it cannot be satisfactorily correlated with
name-your-favorite-parameter.  I'll grant you that such measurements COULD
produce meaningful progress in CF research...but they haven't yet.    

>He has not done the experiment, so his findings are meaningless.

I did the RIFEX experiment, following the prescribed protocol to the
letter.  My findings in this experiment are far from meaningless.

I did Case's experiment under his guidance.  I followed his protocol
precisely.    I even used some of Case's own catalyst that had shown an
excess temperature effect in his apparatus.  My findings in this experiment
are extremely significant.

I did Ragland's experiment under his guidance.  He supplied me with
cathodes of his own making.  Other's have done Ragland's experiment, too.
None have shown significant excess heat.  

I did the Incandescent W experiment and got exactly the same cell behavior
that  Ohmori did except...no excess heat.

And I've done numerous other experiments, not written up, that broadly fit
into the CF category.  None of them have shown excess heat and, although
that usually doesn't prove anything, it certainly is not meaningless.  

In rare cases, such as one of the proprietary gas-loading experiments, I
have managed to conclusively prove that the original investigator was
misinterpreting calorimetry errors as excess heat.  Usually, we just end up
in a standoff.  My calorimetry shows nothing....theirs shows excess heat.

Jed, I am quite certain that we share a common goal: find a viable energy
technology and make it a practical reality.  Why don't you work WITH me to
achieve that goal?

For example, I still have not received a response from Dr. Case regarding
my offer to perform a free, on-site calorimetric measurement of his
experiment. If you would direct your considerable persuasive skills in his
direction, perhaps we could both learn quickly whether or not his discovery
is real.

...or how about BLP?


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

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Frederick J Sparber wrote:
> 
(snip)
> In place of Solar radiation a cesium-137 radioisotope that emitts 0.262
> watts/gram  of
> 0.514 Mev Betas (Electrons)and a 0.66 Mev gamma 

Hey, Fred, what could we do with an alpha emitter to get more thrust
per watt combined with a beta emitter to balance the charge emission
(to prevent ball lightning formation from the astronaut's ears).
Maybe we could rig up something with 100,000 discarded smoke detectors
plus an electron gun from an old TV set?

Frank (the crank) Stenger

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-----Original Message-----
From: Francis J. Stenger <fstenger interlaced.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: Photoelectron Recoil Engine?

Frank Stenger wrote:


>Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>>
>(snip)
>> In place of Solar radiation a cesium-137 radioisotope that emits 0.262
>> watts/gram  of
>> 0.514 Mev Betas (Electrons)and a 0.66 Mev gamma
>
>Hey, Fred, what could we do with an alpha emitter to get more thrust
>per watt combined with a beta emitter to balance the charge emission

No problemo, Frankie. :-) The "alpha sail" was conjured up at your olde
stomping grounds, but was superseded by a transuranium spontaneous fission
"sail" scheme. But, Lewis is waiting for a shipment of "Element 115" from
Roswell.

>(to prevent ball lightning formation from the astronaut's ears).

This doesn't happen if you're wet behind the ears.

>Maybe we could rig up something with 100,000 discarded smoke detectors
>plus an electron gun from an old TV set?

Great! This kind of creative thinking will put the folks on Vortex on the
cutting edge of Interplanetary Travel just like it has done for
bringing Free Energy to commercialization.

Best,  Frederick
>
>Frank (the crank) Stenger

Mean or eccentric?   :-)
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 15 10:27:19 1999
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Scott,

It looks like we're even further apart in our view of Mills' work than I
thought.

I opined that Vince had gotten results in his Mills-type work because he
believed Mills' hydrino hypothesis and that you hadn't because you didn't.

You replied, "You are mistaken.  Vince's cell was his own novel idea involving
a glow discharge in a hydrogen atmosphere with metallic K present (I supplied
the K to him).  To the contrary, I studied all of Mills experiment reports,
chose the one that seemed to best represent them, employed the same K
compounds that Mills mentions, tried both kinds of filaments (W & Pt) that
Mills has used, and follow, as well as possible, the sketchy protocols he
gave."

Vince's cell was a novel embodiment of Mills' hydrino hypothesis.  The idea
was to bring neutral atoms of H into contact with K+ ions, so Vince set about
doing that.  

In your gas-phase Mills-type work, you avoided doing that.  First you spent a
lot of time burning out brake-light filaments.  When you got around to using a
platinum filament, you put it to the side of the cylindrical stainless steel
container with the K catalyst in it.  Mills used a ceramic boat directly under
the filament, I think.  You used a stainless steel cylinder with a relatively
small opening set to one side of the filament.  Your cell was also
considerably bigger than Mills'.  The whole setup looked as if you were trying
to minimize the chances of dissociated neutral H atoms coming into contact
with K+ ions.

In the case of your work with the electrolytic Mills-type cell, even a non-
techie like me could see the following:

1) Closed cell rather than open cell.  Mills used open cells, and the one he
reported in Mills & Good 1995 (his last peer-reviewed published work on the
subject) produced excess heat far beyond recombination.  Using a closed cell
in a Mills-type electrolytic experiment seems to greatly reduce the chances of
success right off the bat.  (Come to think of it, I don't know of anyone who's
succeeded with a closed Mills-type electrolytic cell, but then I haven't read
Mitchell Swartz's 1997 and 1998 papers yet.  Mitchell, have you succeeded in
producing excess heat with a closed Ni/H2O/K2CO3 cell?)
2) Too dilute an electrolyte:  Mills used 0.57 molar K2CO3 rather than 0.3
molar.
3) Using distilled water from the grocery store rather than water that's been
deionized and decontaminated by a lab purification system.  (I must admit,
though, that I didn't see any mention of deionization in Mills & Good 1995)
4) Using much too high a current density?  (Maybe I'm wrong on this one)
5) Using uncleaned nickel fibrex as the cathode.  Mills & Good 1995 used
nickel wire cloth for the cathode and nickel fibrex mat for the anode, and
they thoroughly cleaned both of them, as well as the electrolysis dewar.

I doubt that Mills would agree that you came close to following the directions
that he published for his electrolytic experiments, and I suspect that he
would wince at the photo of your filament and catalyst-container setup for the
gas-phase experiment.  Looking at the work you've posted, the folks at BLP
would, I think, conclude that you hadn't taken their work seriously.

Congratulations on being the person who supplied Vince Cockeram with his
potassium.  That was a contribution.  But why do you so emphatically say, "No
offense to Vince but his "calorimetry" was so crude
that you cannot conclude ANYTHING from his results...except maybe that it
would be worthwhile testing his cell in a real calorimeter."

It seems to me that a rise in temperature of 200 degrees C, even at Vince's
one measuring point, was one heck of a strong result.  I'm sorry that I was
unsubscribed when it occurred.  And his setup looks like something your lab
could handle without much strain.  Why didn't you try to replicate Vince's
experiment?

Tom Stolper

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Mitchell Swartz writes:

	However, many other reasons than material problems can
	contribute to failure (or success  ;-). For example, failure to
	drive the system at the optimal operating point.

I did not mean to imply that material problems are the only issues in CF.
However, in bulk Pd - D2O CF, the material is by far the most important
parameter, as shown by the distribution of positive results reported by
Miles: 4 out of 4 Johnson-Matthey Type A Pd cathodes worked, but the score
was 0 out of 19 for various others types. It is a shame J-M will not
produce any more Type A, and the people who know how to do it are retired
or dead.

It may be that with other forms of CF, driving the system electrochemically
is as important as materials.

- Jed

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Mitch Swartz reveals nothing about these alleged tests by alleged
professors from MIT:

	Sorry, we do not do requests for demands.

Well, that is understandable. Many companies do not reveal information
about  work in progress. HOWEVER, if you must keep it secret, then you
should not claim that unnamed professors did an undescribed analysis and
came up with a positive opinion. What can we do with that statement? How
can we evaluate it? If we do not even know who these people are or what
they did, their work cannot add credibility to your claims. I cannot accept
an opinion I know nothing about from a person I am not allowed to meet.
Your statements sound a lot like the skeptic's: "The experts looked at cold
fusion and they proved it was false." Which experts? When, where? What did
they do, what did they prove? I cannot accept such vague, blanket
statements from anyone. If you are not at liberty to make specific claims
backed by quantitative data and formal reports signed by your experts, you
should not make any claims at all.

- Jed

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Norman Horwood writes:

	I couldn't agree more!  But,  surely that is why Scott has
	offered to take his - admittedly good - calorimeter to a working
	cell rather than try to replicate the complex structure and fail
	again due to his own lack of specific experience.

His calorimeter is good, but it is not what is called for in many types of
CF experiments. Like all flow calorimeters, it tends to keep the sample
temperature from rising, which is not good. You can avoid that by adding
insulation but that slows down response time.

You cannot tell if a cell is "working" unless you measure the control
parameters. It might work one day and stop the next. If you transplant the
cathode from one cell to another, it is likely to be contaminated with
oxides, which will definitely stop it from working. That is like taking a
silicon transistor out of its plastic or ceramic packaging. Perhaps someone
might be able to move an entire working cell, in situ, in the lab, but the
calorimeter would have be designed to fit it. I would give that project a
couple of months, at least. I do not know any working CF scientist who is
willing to call a two-month timeout to his work for a project to move a
working cell. Ed Storms might do it.


	Now, it is still the case, that none of the _real_ experts who
	claim to have _real_ ou working cells have taken him up on his
	offer . . .

Do you seriously expect that the Italian National Physical Laboratory or
the Mitsubishi Advanced Technical Research Center will invite some guy from
Texas to bring a home-made calorimeter into their clean rooms, to check the
performance of their $10 million apparatus? They spend three months and
couple of man years setting up an experiment which could be ruined in a
half hour by inexpert handling. They will NOT let an untrained person near
the thing.

Do you think the PPPL tokamak reactor people would allow Scott to attach a
homemade apparatus to their machines? Would a programmer who has been
working on project for two years let him walk and start making code changes
to a program?

The cold fusion scientists I have spoken with were impressed by Scott
Little's abilities and his lecture on calorimetry. However, they say they
would grant him a PhD in electrochem or post-doc responsibilities quite yet.


	. . . and informed onlookers, admittedly not experts in
	electrochemistry in some cases (like moi), are beginning to have
	doubts about even the most prestigious experts' claims of ou.

Well in that case, you should spend a week reviewing the official 342 page
SRI report, or the 95 page report from China Lake, the Italian National
Labs papers, or Tom Claytor's reports on tritium. Read this work very
carefully, look up the references, look at the data tables and error bars,
get the CD-ROM of data and run it yourself, and see if you can spot an
error, or evidence of sloppy work. If you cannot, your doubts have no
rational basis. Prestige has nothing to do with it; if we judged cold
fusion by the prestige index of the investigators, we would have dismissed
it in 1989, when the Most Prestigious Laboratories failed to see excess heat.


	Why do they all start to sound like the late Stan Meyer?  Claims
	of high performance;  claims of high financial backing;  high
	secrecy;  refusal to allow anyone in from outside . . .

This does not describe the research which impresses me, at places like Los
Alamos, China Lake and Mitsubishi. I dismiss the people who claim high
performance and financial backing, yet who will not even describe cell
performance. It is true you cannot visit Claytor with a high level security
clearance, but he did not set that policy. It has been that way since the
lab was founded in 1943 (or whenever it was).


	Its a bloody shame IMHO.

Amen to that!

- Jed

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Scott Little writes:

	I've measured loading many times, using the "orphaned oxygen"
	method (McKubre), the resistivity method (McKubre, Claytor,
	etc.), and my own "gas volume" method (in two series of
	proprietary gas loading experiments).

That's news to me. That's good. What do you mean "many times"? You have to
do it every time. It is like shifting gears. You can never leave a stop
sign in third gear, as I have pointed out to A Certain Family Member. It
does not matter how many times you shifted previously.


	I've also measured Pd expansion as Storms does...with a micrometer.

Good. Last time we discussed this (maybe years ago), you said you didn't.
Have you also weighed the cathode to be sure it was loaded when you
measured expansion? There is no point to measuring after the gas has
drained out. That point escaped the people at NEDO, although Storms makes
it clear. How quickly can you get the cathode from the electrolyte to the
scale and micrometer? How many times have you repeated this for each
cathode, and how many different cathodes have you tested?


	These measurements didn't make my CF experiments work and they
	don't help other researchers either.

They do help! The data shows clearly that when other known control factors
are right, such as grain size, surface cleanliness, OCV, even-loading,
anode-to-cathode geometry and so on, these procedures improve replication
by a large factor. They have been recommended for many years, long before
cold fusion. Actually, in most cases, people have been trying to *avoid*
forming hydrides, to avoid embrittlement, corrosion and other damage, but
to learn how to avoid making a hydride you learn how to make one quickly.


	Oh, there's plenty of papers presented at each ICCF that
	hypothesize relationships between the excess heat effect and
	name-your-favorite-parameter . . .

I do not see people offering hypotheses. I see data and knowledge based on
conventional science that goes way back before CF.


	. . . but there's simply not enough data to confirm such
	hypotheses.

There is TONS of data, in textbooks going back to the last century. When
you make such ignorant statements you alienate electrochemists. This may be
why they are not anxious to let you poke at their experiments.


	Oh, one lab may observe an apparent correlation in their
	experiments but that's about as far as it goes.

Oh, right. Of course. We can toss out Bockris's textbooks and close down
the electrochemistry departments. Miles spent 8 years developing iron-clad
statistics correlating performance with materials, but it is only an
"apparent correlation." Gee, thanks for telling us. With your attitude, you
should not be surprised that CF scientists refuse to give you the time of day.


	Since nobody can reproduce the excess heat effect . . .

That's absurd. Nobody can EASILY reproduce it, because most cathodes fall
apart catastrophically instead of loading, as McKubre showed at ICCF7. Lots
of people can and have reproduced it, and if you do not think so, you have
not understood the literature.


	I did the RIFEX experiment, following the prescribed protocol to
	the letter.   My findings in this experiment are far from
	meaningless.

Yes, I said that was the exception. However, your instruments distinguish
only elements, not isotopes. I do not think that is adequate to the task,
as I said when you published. To put it bluntly, yes, those results are
meaningless.


	I did Case's experiment under his guidance.  I followed his
	protocol precisely.

You can't. He himself does not know what he is doing well enough to explain
it to others. He is working closely with SRI and improving his protocols. I
still hope he manages to make the self-sustaining cell work. I think shape
of the container and thermal gradients may play an important role in that
experiment, but who knows? It is too early to say.


	I even used some of Case's own catalyst that had shown an excess
	temperature effect in his apparatus.  My findings in this
	experiment are extremely significant.

No, you would have to repeat the experiment 50 to 100 times, given the
known failure rate of CF experiments. It is like manufacturing transistors
in 1960; only 1 or 2 out of every batch of 100 may work, so you have to
test them all. Case himself performed the experiment hundreds of times over
many years before he mastered the techniques, found the right materials,
and began to see excess heat. You should not expect to recapitulate his
efforts in a few weeks. You have to go, and watch, and try it, again, and
again, and again. It is dogged drudgery, as one CF scientist remarked
recently.


	I did Ragland's experiment under his guidance.  He supplied me
	with cathodes of his own making.  Other's have done Ragland's
	experiment, too. None have shown significant excess heat.

That's right, and he said the experiment works most of the time, so I
suppose he must have done his calorimetry wrong.


	I did the Incandescent W experiment and got exactly the same
	cell behavior that  Ohmori did except...no excess heat.

You did not get the same cell behavior. They saw excess heat and
transmutations; you didn't. (Did you check for transmutations? I don't
recall.) Also you did not do it very often, and their papers do not tell
much about what they did. You need to go spend a month or two in Hokkaido
watching and practicing before you can have confidence that you doing it
the same way. They have improved their calorimetry and extended the runs
much longer than can be accounted for the artifact reported by that guy in
Canada . . . Obviously, this experiment is still a ways from being widely
replicated at high sigma.


	And I've done numerous other experiments, not written up, that
	broadly fit into the CF category.

How would I know about that?


	None of them have shown excess heat and, although that usually
	doesn't prove anything, it certainly is not meaningless.

It proves you have not done the experiments right, and you have not
repeated them enough.


	In rare cases, such as one of the proprietary gas-loading
	experiments, I have managed to conclusively prove that the
	original investigator was misinterpreting calorimetry errors as
	excess heat.  Usually, we just end up in a standoff.  My
	calorimetry shows nothing....theirs shows excess heat.

Either that or your materials and techniques produce nothing, and theirs
produces excess heat. I think it is unlikely that calorimetry causes the
difference. Calorimetry, as I have said, is fairly simple, whereas the
materials and techniques are difficult. Above one watt in liquid I think
there is no chance that skilled workers are making a mistake in
calorimetry, and I am sure Miles has the problem nailed even at 50 to 500 mW.


	Jed, I am quite certain that we share a common goal: find a
	viable energy technology and make it a practical reality.  Why
	don't you work WITH me to achieve that goal?

What can I do?!? I do not need your skills. I am not running experiments.
(Ed Wall is; maybe he could use you.) The people who are running good
experiments have excellent calorimeters and they know more about
calorimetry than you do. The people who are running lousy experiments are a
lost cause.

Look, I could write good real-time data collection programs for CF
researchers. I could have done IMRA a world of good years ago. But they do
not need programs because HP and other companies now supply excellent PC
and Mac data collection programs along with their instruments -- much
better than I could write. So, alas, nobody in the CF business needs my
programming skills, and they do not need your calorimeter, either. I guess
if you want to employ your calorimeter in CF experiments, you should sign
up for a graduate level course in electrochem . . . Or see if you can get a
job with SRI, Mitsubishi, or Case.


	For example, I still have not received a response from Dr. Case
	regarding my offer to perform a free, on-site calorimetric
	measurement of his experiment.

He is busy with SRI and with his self sustaining cell, which is enormous
and delicate. I am sure he has no time for flow calorimetry.


	If you would direct your considerable persuasive skills in his
	direction, perhaps we could both learn quickly whether or not
	his discovery is real.

I think the fastest way to find out if the discovery is real is to let him
finish up the self-sustaining cell. If he cannot pull that off, I guess
there must be a mistake somewhere.


	...or how about BLP?

I have never gotten a response out of them. I dismiss them, along with many
others. I do not understand the work they are now focused on. They have
gone off on a tangent relating to chemistry or manufacturing, rather than
excess heat. I have no use for that.

- Jed

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At 13:20 2/15/99 EST, Tstolper aol.com wrote:

>The whole setup looked as if you were trying
>to minimize the chances of dissociated neutral H atoms coming into contact
>with K+ ions.

In my first run, the KNO3 was too close to the filament (in that little
wire basket) and it melted/vaporized totally.  That's why I went to a
slightly remote catalyst holder.  It was still in the chamber with the
filament and plenty hot enough to provide K atoms to the filament.

>In the case of your work with the electrolytic Mills-type cell, even a non-
>techie like me could see the following:

Agreed.  I don't claim anything for my electrolytic Mills cell.

>It seems to me that a rise in temperature of 200 degrees C, even at Vince's
>one measuring point, was one heck of a strong result.  I'm sorry that I was
>unsubscribed when it occurred. 

Yes, he got an excess temperature reading...but I've seen things like that
happen a dozen times before...and turn out to be nothing but shifting
thermal heat paths.  It's not calorimetry.

>And his setup looks like something your lab
>could handle without much strain.  Why didn't you try to replicate Vince's
>experiment?

As I mentioned above, I don't put much weight on his excess temperature
result.  
Since our closer efforts at Mills experiment were not showing any excess
heat, it did not seem worthwhile to pursue a more remote version of the
same experiment.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 15 11:23:12 1999
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Scott,

You wrote:

>I did the RIFEX experiment, following the prescribed protocol to the
>letter.  My findings in this experiment are far from meaningless.

My understanding is that CETI disagrees very strongly with your interpretation of your nuclear results, though I have not seen the details of their complaint -- I just heard it. Perhaps you could illuminate this if they'll let you?

I have seen the original Motorola test data. They are irrefutable for excess heat -- there is ZERO input power and there is 20 watts coming out of the cell for at least 11 hours.  CETI does not need you, nor I, nor anyone else to confirm their excess heat

 and nuclear reactions. I think an offer of $15 million for a full buy-out by Motorola was quite enough for them. I wish they HAD been able to make a deal with Motorola....It was abig mistake that they didn't.
>
>I did Case's experiment under his guidance.  I followed his protocol
>precisely.    I even used some of Case's own catalyst that had shown an
>excess temperature effect in his apparatus.  My findings in this experiment
>are extremely significant.

Case disagrees. Your conditions are NOT the ones he has been successful with, nor are they McKubre's - who evidently is working cvery closely now with Case and getting good results -- including helium.
>
>I did Ragland's experiment under his guidance.  He supplied me with
>cathodes of his own making.  Other's have done Ragland's experiment, too.
>None have shown significant excess heat.  

That is true.
>
>I did the Incandescent W experiment and got exactly the same cell behavior
>that  Ohmori did except...no excess heat.

You did not do nearly enough work on Ohmori-Mizuno, nor have we. All I can tell you is that a variant using ultra pure carbon rods (les than 5 ppm Fe) and ultapure K2CO3 we get absolutely consistent *magnetically repsonsive* material generated.  It looks 

just like iron filings, except it is NOT iron filings. No such behavior with a crushed virgin rod. The excess energy results are more problematic with the cell given to us by Chip Ransford. There is an impression that there can be SUDDEN dramatic shifts t

o higher power output after a series of runs. This is not easy -- and Ed Wall has been doing all the work. More professional chemical tests on the detritus are expected.
>
>And I've done numerous other experiments, not written up, that broadly fit
>into the CF category.  None of them have shown excess heat and, although
>that usually doesn't prove anything, it certainly is not meaningless.  

If you think your work has any meaning with respect to casting into doubt the work of Will, McKubre, Miles, Claytor, or Fleishcmann and Pons, or Mills or many others-- which are definitive as to establishing the class of phenomena of nuclear scale excess 

energy and nuclear reactions ‹then you are wrong. I think you might like to think your work casts doubt on this field. It doesn't‹although others may think it does.
>
>In rare cases, such as one of the proprietary gas-loading experiments, I
>have managed to conclusively prove that the original investigator was
>misinterpreting calorimetry errors as excess heat.  Usually, we just end up
>in a standoff.  My calorimetry shows nothing....theirs shows excess heat.
>
>Jed, I am quite certain that we share a common goal: find a viable energy
>technology and make it a practical reality.  Why don't you work WITH me to
>achieve that goal?
>
>For example, I still have not received a response from Dr. Case regarding
>my offer to perform a free, on-site calorimetric measurement of his
>experiment. If you would direct your considerable persuasive skills in his
>direction, perhaps we could both learn quickly whether or not his discovery
>is real.

Dr. Case is NOT interested in working with you, Scott.  I am not his spokesman, but I will tell you that that is so. I had suggested to him that a test by you would be useful, but I did not push it. I personally am convinced already that this work is corr

ect, but I want to see iron-clad calorimetry.  I think we will be able to help him with that -- we are trying with our limted resources.  Case  is quite happy working with McKubre at SRI. Of course, if and when he gets his self-sustainer working, it will 

not matter who he is working with. It will be Case closed. Let us hope... He keeps having hydrogen leaks in his big dewar-based cell. He is trying to correct this by going to yet another high-tech welder.


>
>...or how about BLP?

BLP clearly does not need Scott little, Gene Mallove, or anyone else. They have plenty of good people to do the work that they intend to do, and they are massively funded. I hope BLP sucks out whatwever worthwhile "brains" may still remain at Princeton's 

Plasma Physcis Lab. Can't think of a better place for a much needed brain drain -- except maybe at the MIT PFC

I think it is silly of you to expect that BlackLight needs your assessment. 

Best wishes,

Gene

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

Ph:  603-228-4516
Fax: 603-224-5975

  editor infinite-energy.com
www.infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 15 11:30:44 1999
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   Jed,

  Please stop your nonsense.   YOU brought this up, 
after YOU made your BOLD claims of "kilowatts" which
I refuted by suggesting calibration -- of which you
are uninterested apparently.   

  YOU might try verifying your own bold "kilowatts" (using your
own words) before attempting to dispute our lower
level (circa 88 milliwatts per cm2 nickel surface
excess power levels) levels, which have been reported in
a series of papers -- papers which you (falsely) claimed had not
been published. 

  Jed, you also might try putting your
own purported "kilowatt" levels through peer review before
attacking those who slowly move this field ahead.

  Have a good day.
  Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 15 11:31:20 1999
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: The unfamilliar, invisible cathode
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At 01:14 PM 2/15/99 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Mitchell Swartz writes:
>
>	However, many other reasons than material problems can
>	contribute to failure (or success  ;-). For example, failure to
>	drive the system at the optimal operating point.
>
>I did not mean to imply that material problems are the only issues in CF.
>However, in bulk Pd - D2O CF, the material is by far the most important
>parameter, as shown by the distribution of positive results reported by
>Miles: 4 out of 4 Johnson-Matthey Type A Pd cathodes worked, but the score
>was 0 out of 19 for various others types. It is a shame J-M will not
>produce any more Type A, and the people who know how to do it are retired
>or dead.
>
>It may be that with other forms of CF, driving the system electrochemically
>is as important as materials.
>
>- Jed


   Nope, all CF systems apparently, as described in part in
our ICCF7 paper.  And the problems which dominate are not
always electrochemical or material, but engineering aspects
as well.  Hence the post for those who follow this.

     Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 15 13:41:32 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Photoelectron Recoil Engine?
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I love great puns.
Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Frederick J Sparber[SMTP:fjsparb sprintmail.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Monday, February 15, 1999 6:26 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: Photoelectron Recoil Engine?
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Francis J. Stenger <fstenger interlaced.net>
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 7:02 AM
> Subject: Re: Photoelectron Recoil Engine?
> 
> Frank Stenger wrote:
> 
> 
> >Frederick J Sparber wrote:
> >>
> >(snip)
> >> In place of Solar radiation a cesium-137 radioisotope that emits 0.262
> >> watts/gram  of
> >> 0.514 Mev Betas (Electrons)and a 0.66 Mev gamma
> >
> >Hey, Fred, what could we do with an alpha emitter to get more thrust
> >per watt combined with a beta emitter to balance the charge emission
> 
> No problemo, Frankie. :-) The "alpha sail" was conjured up at your olde
> stomping grounds, but was superseded by a transuranium spontaneous fission
> "sail" scheme. But, Lewis is waiting for a shipment of "Element 115" from
> Roswell.
> 
> >(to prevent ball lightning formation from the astronaut's ears).
> 
> This doesn't happen if you're wet behind the ears.
> 
> >Maybe we could rig up something with 100,000 discarded smoke detectors
> >plus an electron gun from an old TV set?
> 
> Great! This kind of creative thinking will put the folks on Vortex on the
> cutting edge of Interplanetary Travel just like it has done for
> bringing Free Energy to commercialization.
> 
> Best,  Frederick
> >
> >Frank (the crank) Stenger
> 
> Mean or eccentric?   :-)
> >
> >
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 15 14:49:36 1999
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Subject: Bottle washing in CF labs
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I suggested that Scott Little should do post-doc work in a CF lab. Michel
Jones made a sarcastic comment in response:

	Or better still, perhaps he could sweep up around the lab after working
hours. :-)

This is a very telling comment. The answer is, yes as a matter of fact he
should. Also, there are no "working hours" for post-docs: if you are awake
you work. Everyone who intends to do research should sweep up and do years
of what is called "bottle washing" in laboratory jargon. In
electrochemistry, it is not just a figure of speech: they often wash
bottles. I have sat in a corner and watched experienced, middle-aged
electrochemists do this. It takes hours. They go through step after step
with purified de-ionized water and various test procedures to be sure to
glassware is clean. A professional is a person who understands why you must
spend two days doing a task which an amateur might think should take only a
half-hour. If you wash the bottles incorrectly, your cold fusion experiment
will not work and you will not know why. There are a hundred other ways,
perhaps a thousand other ways, to screw up this experiment. Until you spend
years seeing and doing every trivial task in electrochemistry, from bottle
washing to bending wires, you cannot know how to avoid these mistakes. It
would take several lifetimes to recapitulate the field on your own,
starting from scratch, as a scientific Robinson Crusoe.

Of course much of this attention to detail is common to other fields of
chemistry, physics, biology and so on. I am not suggesting that
electrochemistry is particularly demanding.

As for sweeping up -- in a top-notch, clean-room lab, that is done by
experienced technicians. I would not let Scott Little do it at first, any
more than I would let a novice programmer debug critical code. Most
professionals doing cold fusion (and other R&D) spend weeks doing tasks
which, to an outsider, appear to be as demeaning and trivial as sweeping
up. Sweeping, washing, brazing, soldering, and taking and interpreting SEM
photos are examples of the kinds of skills that a person must master. I
watched Martin Fleischmann spend two hours drawing a curve by hand on graph
paper. A computer of might have done it in a few seconds, but the computer
would not have learned anything. I have sat with McKubre and others
listening to discussions of such "trivial tasks," and I can report that
these people could write a book about how to wash and sweep. I'm sure at
INTEL there are formal tests for the clean room lab technicians assigned
this important job.

Jones was being sarcastic, but his comment reveals the knowledge gap that
caused this debate. Learning to sweep up and wash bottles is absolutely
essential, and so is the intellectual mastery of chemistry and physics
equations, which can be almost as tedious, I am told.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 15 15:05:01 1999
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Feb. 15, 1999    Mitch Swartz [mica world.std.com],  Your paper sounds
interesting -- is it on the Net somewhere, or can you post it to Vortex-L?

 Swartz. M.., 1998, Patterns of Failure in Cold Fusion Experiments,
Proceedings of the 33RD Intersociety Engineering Conference on Energy Conversion,

IECEC-98-I229, Colorado Springs, CO, August 2-6, 1998.

Regards, Rich Murray




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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 15 15:18:51 1999
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:14:22 -0500
From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: The unfamilliar, invisible cathode
Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
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Mitchell Swartz said:

>> What makes you think that those who do hundreds [to thousands]
of experiments, and are familiar with calorimetry, need
(or want) demands from someone with less experience and
who may have what is [not necessarily] a "superior" system? <<

OK - with all the proof and all the know-how, when are we going to see
something marketable, or even demonstrable to the wider public.  IMHO it
needs a demo by a third party using agreed and tested equipment, with all
the support necessary from the 'inventor' to ensure that the device works
as described, before even well-disposed skeptics will believe any claim
from any scientist/inventor.  Otherwise I can see no end to the 'this year;
next year; some-time; never' situation.

I've read Jed's translation of Mizuno's book, and it certainly gives a very
clear picture of the intense and concentrated effort coupled with
scientific methodology which Mizuno brought to bear on the subject.  But
I'm not sure where we go from here.

Norman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 15 17:46:09 1999
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Subject: Re: Photon wavelength vs Energy
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:41:54 -0700
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For your info, Colin.

Photon ev   Lambda Angstroms  Type   Al depth

12,400           1.00          x-ray  0.017 cm

1,240            10.00         x-ray  0.0005

124              100.00        x-ray     ?

12.40            1000.00         UV       ?

1.24             10,000.00      Infrared  ?

Vision peak 5,000 angstroms 2.48 ev.

Vision range 4,000-6700 angstroms 3.1-1.85 ev

>From this one can see that the most likely photons for recoil electrons in a
material are in the 2.48- >>5.0 ev range. A fluorescent bulb (quartz)
without the phosphor will put out a bunch of 254 nanometer (2,540 angstrom,
4.88 ev) UV photons. The Sun does this all the way from the Infrared to Mev
Gammas in Space above the Ozone layer.

Cesium-137 (0.263 watts/gram)(with a bit of Mercury Vapor) in a Quartz bulb
should act like a 0.514 Mev Crookes x-ray tube sans the power supply, with
all sorts of UV and Infrared output to boot.

Regards,  Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 15 22:41:33 1999
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At 02:21 PM 2/15/99 -0000, E.F. Mallove wrote:

>My understanding is that CETI disagrees very strongly with your
interpretation of your nuclear results, though I have not seen the details
of their complaint -- I just heard it. Perhaps you could illuminate this if
they'll let you?

Sorry, I have had almost no direct communication with CETI since release of
our report.  Miley made all sorts of criticisms of my initial draft, for
which I am grateful. I incorporated as many of his suggestions as I could
accept.  The real crux of the matter is the issue of trace elements in the
initial electrolyte.  As I explain in the Epilog to my RIFEX report, the
SIMS analysis on our beads looks almost identical to the SIMS analysis on
Miley's beads.  In other words, our experiment worked just as well as
Miley's!  I then present a solid argument that shows that almost all of the
many SIMS elements could easily be present as indetectable traces in the
fresh electrolyte.  I support this argument with actual data obtained from
several laboratory analyses of electrolyte.  In his more recent talks (e.g.
ICCF-7), Miley presents a plot showing his idea of the bead element concs
that could be due to electrolyte contamination and they are two orders of
magnitude below mine!  I asked him for details on the electrolyte analysis
technique that had produced such extraordinary performance and...he wasn't
intimately familiar with it!  He just said that a lab at UIUC had done the
analyses.

>I have seen the original Motorola test data. They are irrefutable for
excess heat -- there is ZERO input power and there is 20 watts coming out
of the cell for at least 11 hours.

It's a shame they can't reproduce that anymore.  They wouldn't be fooling
around with Fiber-Tech if they could.

>Case disagrees. Your conditions are NOT the ones he has been successful
with...

Odd, I followed his instructions carefully.  Do you think he mislead me on
purpose?

>You did not do nearly enough work on Ohmori-Mizuno, nor have we. All I can
tell you is that a variant using ultra pure carbon rods (les than 5 ppm Fe)
and ultapure K2CO3 we get absolutely consistent *magnetically repsonsive*
material generated.  It looks just like iron filings, except it is NOT iron
filings. No such behavior with a crushed virgin rod.

I've heard of this experiment...most interesting.  You know that Fe2O3 is
not magnetic and Fe3O4 is magnetic.  If the virgin rods contain Fe2O3, even
at 5 ppm, and the arc/electrolysis process reduces it to Fe3O4 you will get
some magnetic action in the residue that will not be present on a crushed
virgin rod.

>The excess energy results are more problematic with the cell given to us
by Chip Ransford. There is an impression that there can be SUDDEN dramatic
shifts to higher power output after a series of runs.

Have calorimeter, will travel to promising experiments!

>If you think your work has any meaning with respect to casting into doubt
the work of Will, McKubre, Miles, Claytor, or Fleishcmann and Pons, or
Mills or many others-- which are definitive as to establishing the class of
phenomena of nuclear scale excess energy and nuclear reactions then you are
wrong.

In the beginning, I thought those guys' excess heat results were ironclad
and unassailable.  However, as a result of my extensive experience
developing and using calorimeters, I now believe that there is a finite
possibility that their results are erroneous.  That's all. I don't hope
their results are erroneous and I don't claim that they're erroneous.

>Dr. Case is NOT interested in working with you, Scott. <snip> He keeps
having hydrogen leaks in his big dewar-based cell. He is trying to correct
this by going to yet another high-tech welder.

Tell him I'll fix it for him...and leak test it...for free...in one day!
I've made lots of leak-proof TIG welds in constructing my hydrogen/vacuum
plumbing systems.

>I think it is silly of you to expect that BlackLight needs your assessment. 

I don't. I expect them to want it.  We can muster resources that would
dwarf their present funding.  All they have to do is allow the tests.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 15 22:54:46 1999
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Hey Soo!

You wrote:

>The General Assembly of Indiana declared in 1897 that they weren't going to
>put up with all that frivolous nonsense after the decimal point in Pi and
>they were staying with the concrete figures.  So Pi, within the confines of
>that state only, were deemed to be worth a solid 4.
>
>As a consequence every single clock in the State gained roughly 15 minutes
>an hour.
>
>- Soo
>(I'm hoping someone from Indiana can explain this one to me)

        I don't get to read much of the goings on in the Vortex Group these
days, but I saw this, and having had the great fortune of being born and
mostly raised in The Great State of Indiana, I had to come to the defense of
my native land.  Having been somewhat involved with politics when I was
there, (Boy's State representative, President of almost everything in New
Haven High School, President of my church youth group, and finally working
for former Governor Matt Welsh's law firm) it's not surprising to me that
the legislature would deem the constant Pi a bit of frivolous nonsense.
After all, in 1897, the vast majority of the inhabitants of Indiana were
corn farmers who, while I'm sure they possessed great moral character, work
ethic and so on, had all the sophistication of a tree stump.  There was a
even a joke that was told when I was there that went like this.  One man
goes up to another man and says "Oh, I see you graduated from Harvard."  The
other man says "Yes, that is correct, how did you know?"  The first man says
"Well, I read it on your class ring while you were thumbing through that
legal text."  The first man sees another man and says "Hey, I see you
graduated from MIT." and the other man says "Why yes, how did you know
that?"  The first man says "Well, I read it on your class ring as you were
doing a calculation on your slide rule."  Then the first man sees another
man and says "Oh Boy!  You must have graduated from Indiana University!"
The man smiles a bit toothy grin and says "Sure'nuff!  How'd you guess
that?"  The first man says "Well, it was no guess, I read it on your class
ring as you were picking your nose!"  These wonderful people, it must be
remembered, later produced the world reknown stateman - Dan Quail.  They
also produced the world's greatest inventor - me!  And as for the clocks
gaining 15 minutes per hour, well, that just explains why people from
Indiana are so far ahead of their time!

-Knuke
"We don't need no stinking decimal points!"

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
Lady Lake, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 15 22:57:43 1999
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
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All:

Let's call a halt to attacks on Scott Little or anyone else. Scott has
contributed heavily and positively to this list. He has many skills.
Others here have other skills. Let's pool our skills and advance.
Let's not play putdown games.

I thought that the recently reconstituted Vortex-l was supposed to
discuss substantive issues. If you have nothing useful to say, then
say nothing.

                                        Mike Schaffer


P.S. Re "Do you think the PPPL tokamak reactor people would allow
Scott to attach a homemade apparatus to their machines?"

I work on a major, high quality tokamak. We have to do lots of things
right to make it work well and to avoid damaging it or simply losing
time through stupid mistakes. Despite the risk, we DO let grad
students and visiting scientists come and attach their (often made in
a small university lab) apparatus. They are only lightly supervised.  

P.S. Re Sweeping the lab to learn... 

Even scientists should clean up their own messes. However, grad
students don't usually have to sweep the floors at our lab. We hire
low skilled people to do routine jobs like that. Scientific training
is not at all a matter of humiliations and initiation rites. The
student should learn the specialized skills that will make him or her
a scientist. The training should be efficient.  Busywork, etc. isn't
intelligent use of scarce resources.


==
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 15 23:06:32 1999
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At 12:42 AM 2/16/99 -0600, Scott Little wrote:
>
>Have calorimeter, will travel to promising experiments!


  Why not measure the ZPE(vacuum)?  
  or is it infintesimally too small?

  Hal's paper(?) was just posted on spf.  Why not
use your in-house expertise to see if it is real?

   Mitchell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 15 23:19:15 1999
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Maganetically Responsive Product
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Gene Mallove" wrote:



> You did not do nearly enough work on Ohmori-Mizuno, nor have we. All
I can tell you is that a variant using ultra pure carbon rods (les
than 5 ppm Fe) and ultapure K2CO3 we get absolutely consistent
*magnetically repsonsive* material generated.  It looks just like iron
filings, except it is NOT iron filings. No such behavior with a
crushed virgin rod. The excess energy results are more problematic
with the cell given to us by Chip Ransford. There is an impression
that there can be SUDDEN dramatic shifts to higher power output after
a series of runs. This is not easy -- and Ed Wall has been doing all
the work. More professional chemical tests on the detritus are expected.

  Several people have reported "magnetically responsive" product from
carbon arcs. Magnetic response is, of course, no proof of
transmutation. Many materials are magnetic. Ferromagnetism requires
unpaired electrons plus sufficient coupling to align all the spins of
neighboring atoms in the same direction. The former is a common
property and gives paramagnetism, a relatively weak but measurable
magnetic response. Spin alignment is a much rarer phenomenon and is
what turns weak paramagnetism into strong ferromagnetism. 

I encourage you to complete the chemical tests. You might just have a
magnetic compound of K and C and O. You might consider spectroscopic
analysis, too, if there are still labs around that do it. X-ray
fluorescence is relatively quick and cheap, too.
==
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 16 01:52:39 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 04:50:25 -0500
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Hi Mike,

I'm impressed.

"class ring" I don't believe we have any equivalent of those in the UK. 
Although there's a despicable rumour that there is a somewhat similar way
in which one can identify a former British public schoolboy.

- Soo

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 16 02:55:42 1999
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X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 02:54:49 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com
Subject: ESJ (electric spacecraft journal) new website
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At last Charles Yost's ELECTRIC SPACECRAFT JOURNAL has a website! Yay!

  URL:http://www.cheta.net/dsi/esj

  e-mail address: dsi cheta.net


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 16 06:08:36 1999
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>I encourage you to complete the chemical tests. You might just have a
>magnetic compound of K and C and O. You might consider spectroscopic
>analysis, too, if there are still labs around that do it. X-ray
>fluorescence is relatively quick and cheap, too.
>==
>Michael J. Schaffer

Thanks, Mike. We have not jumped to conclusions. We'll keep working on it.

Gene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 16 06:08:37 1999
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Scott,
>
>At 02:21 PM 2/15/99 -0000, E.F. Mallove wrote:
>
>>My understanding is that CETI disagrees very strongly with your
>interpretation of your nuclear results, though I have not seen the details
>of their complaint -- I just heard it. Perhaps you could illuminate this if
>they'll let you?
>
>Sorry, I have had almost no direct communication with CETI since release of
>our report.  Miley made all sorts of criticisms of my initial draft, for
>which I am grateful. I incorporated as many of his suggestions as I could
>accept.  The real crux of the matter is the issue of trace elements in the
>initial electrolyte.  As I explain in the Epilog to my RIFEX report, the
>SIMS analysis on our beads looks almost identical to the SIMS analysis on
>Miley's beads.  In other words, our experiment worked just as well as
>Miley's!  I then present a solid argument that shows that almost all of the
>many SIMS elements could easily be present as indetectable traces in the
>fresh electrolyte.  I support this argument with actual data obtained from
>several laboratory analyses of electrolyte.  In his more recent talks (e.g.
>ICCF-7), Miley presents a plot showing his idea of the bead element concs
>that could be due to electrolyte contamination and they are two orders of
>magnitude below mine!  I asked him for details on the electrolyte analysis
>technique that had produced such extraordinary performance and...he wasn't
>intimately familiar with it!  He just said that a lab at UIUC had done the
>analyses.

Thanks for the update!
>
>>I have seen the original Motorola test data. They are irrefutable for
>excess heat -- there is ZERO input power and there is 20 watts coming out
>of the cell for at least 11 hours.
>
>It's a shame they can't reproduce that anymore.  They wouldn't be fooling
>around with Fiber-Tech if they could.

You are right, it's a damn shame.  Fiber-tech brings in cash riight now, 
they'll get back to beads later, I hope.
>
>>Case disagrees. Your conditions are NOT the ones he has been successful
>with...
>
>Odd, I followed his instructions carefully.  Do you think he mislead me on
>purpose?

No, he just does not want to help you -- for whatever his reasons. He has 
some proprietary knowledge related to heat transfer geometreis that he 
does not want to circulate widely just yet. Sigh...!
>
>>You did not do nearly enough work on Ohmori-Mizuno, nor have we. All I can
>tell you is that a variant using ultra pure carbon rods (les than 5 ppm Fe)
>and ultapure K2CO3 we get absolutely consistent *magnetically repsonsive*
>material generated.  It looks just like iron filings, except it is NOT iron
>filings. No such behavior with a crushed virgin rod.
>
>I've heard of this experiment...most interesting.  You know that Fe2O3 is
>not magnetic and Fe3O4 is magnetic.  If the virgin rods contain Fe2O3, even
>at 5 ppm, and the arc/electrolysis process reduces it to Fe3O4 you will get
>some magnetic action in the residue that will not be present on a crushed
>virgin rod.

Interesting thought.
>
>>The excess energy results are more problematic with the cell given to us
>by Chip Ransford. There is an impression that there can be SUDDEN dramatic
>shifts to higher power output after a series of runs.
>
>Have calorimeter, will travel to promising experiments!
>
>>If you think your work has any meaning with respect to casting into doubt
>the work of Will, McKubre, Miles, Claytor, or Fleishcmann and Pons, or
>Mills or many others-- which are definitive as to establishing the class of
>phenomena of nuclear scale excess energy and nuclear reactions then you are
>wrong.
>
>In the beginning, I thought those guys' excess heat results were ironclad
>and unassailable. > However, as a result of my extensive experience
>developing and using calorimeters, I now believe that there is a finite
>possibility that their results are erroneous.  That's all. I don't hope
>their results are erroneous and I don't claim that they're erroneous.

OK, we will agree to disagree. I think they are unassailable. For 
example, I can't how the aneutronic tritium generation can be wrong -- no 
14 MeV neutrons that would be expected in standard reaction of D-D 
producing hot  T in one branch and banging into other D's. And if that is 
correct, then almost everything else is possible/likely.
>
>>Dr. Case is NOT interested in working with you, Scott. <snip> He keeps
>having hydrogen leaks in his big dewar-based cell. He is trying to correct
>this by going to yet another high-tech welder.
>
>Tell him I'll fix it for him...and leak test it...for free...in one day!
>I've made lots of leak-proof TIG welds in constructing my hydrogen/vacuum
>plumbing systems.

OK, but he's pretty independent person!!
>
>>I think it is silly of you to expect that BlackLight needs your assessment. 
>
>I don't. I expect them to want it.  We can muster resources that would
>dwarf their present funding.  All they have to do is allow the tests.

I suppose if you tell them that the money will come FREE , i.e. a 
contribution instead of an investment, they might even let you set up 
shop in their lab! It would be worth a try. Since your sources have such 
deep pockets -- I believe this completely! -- why don't they just GIVE 
the whole field some money and stop screwing around? It seems a bit 
unfair to have folks like McKubre, Storms, Oriani, and others partially 
starving -- all waiting on the say-so of  EarthTech. How about having 
your sources talk directly to McKubre et al for a second opinion? I'm 
sure they'ld still keep you on the payroll even if they came to believe 
him more than you.
>
>
Best, Gene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 16 06:11:12 1999
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Subject: ZPE experiments at EarthTech
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At 02:01 2/16/99 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>Why not measure the ZPE(vacuum)?  

We are trying.  For example, see this photo:

http://www.eden.com/~little/potapov.jpg

In the foreground is the Yusmar test rig we set up but in the background
you can see an apparatus we constructed to look for inertia waves emanating
from accelerating bodies.  The yellow cylinder is a 40kg Pb weight that
rotates around in a circle, producing constant radial acceleration.  Not
shown is an ultra-sensitive mass-spring detector intended to sense a subtle
EM "wake" around the accelerating mass. This experiment was doomed from the
outset by a conceptual error in design...discovered after
construction...but we are now working towards another.

>or is it infintesimally too small?

Far from it.  It's the ubiquity that gets you....and the predominance of
ultra-high frequencies.  However, it is succumbing to concentrated
experimental attacks.  For example, there have now been several good
experimental confirmations of the Casimir force, two quite recently.  The
observed force matches the calculated values very well...which use the same
ZPE density function that prompted John Wheeler to remark that there is
enough energy in the ZPF in the volume of a coffee cup to evaporate all the
world's oceans.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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At 08:06 AM 2/16/99 -0600, Scott Little wrote:


>At 02:01 2/16/99 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>>Why not measure the ZPE(vacuum)?  
>
>We are trying.  For example, see this photo:
>http://www.eden.com/~little/potapov.jpg
>In the foreground is the Yusmar test rig we set up but in the background
>you can see an apparatus we constructed to look for inertia waves emanating
>from accelerating bodies.  The yellow cylinder is a 40kg Pb weight that
>rotates around in a circle, producing constant radial acceleration.  Not
>shown is an ultra-sensitive mass-spring detector intended to sense a subtle
>EM "wake" around the accelerating mass. This experiment was doomed from the
>outset by a conceptual error in design...discovered after
>construction...but we are now working towards another.

   Then why not correct it, and use the scientific method?
  Is it the same reason you did not go back and look at the KS-beads
at the very low power levels (after it was pointed out to you)?

   ===================================================

>>or is it infintesimally too small?
>
>Far from it.  It's the ubiquity that gets you....and the predominance of
>ultra-high frequencies.  However, it is succumbing to concentrated
>experimental attacks.  For example, there have now been several good
>experimental confirmations of the Casimir force, two quite recently.  The
>observed force matches the calculated values very well...which use the same
>ZPE density function that prompted John Wheeler to remark that there is
>enough energy in the ZPF in the volume of a coffee cup to evaporate all the
>world's oceans.

  
  Nonsense, if you mean in the volume of vacuum the size of coffee
cup.  I simply don't believe it. 
   Here is why:  The equations assume a "hidden" density
-- per cm3 -- greater than the mass of the known universe. There
is no physical basis, EXCEPT to force the equation.  ;-)X


   ===================================================


  Scott:

    It seems more people believe in cold fusion (judging by the
worldwide continued interest and attendance at the international
meetings) than ZPE(vacuum).  But, given that ZPE(vacuum) is of current
interest AND that you are working with an expert in ZPE(v), why
not give a quantitative estimate of the amount of ZPE(v) you can
detect (I cant find it above), and then simply measure it
(if it is exists from the point of view of being extractable
to any amount).

    You seem more focused on cold fusion and other o/u devices
rather than your "own" ZPE(v) with which you (at least Hal)
have MUCH more experience.  Then, if you can actually measure what
you claim is "ubiquit(ous)", write it up and publish it, you might
find those in the cf field becoming more interested in your
investigational methods and devices.

     Have a good day.
        Mitchell Swartz


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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: More about the difficulties of CF
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Norman Horwood wrote:

	I've read Jed's translation of Mizuno's book, and it certainly
	gives a very clear picture of the intense and concentrated
	effort coupled with scientific methodology which Mizuno brought
	to bear on the subject.  But I'm not sure where we go from here.

Mizuno and I wonder about that too . . . Things are pretty grim in this
field. Time is our worst enemy, as top people like Oriani and Fleischmann
fade away.

Reviewing these messages, I realize now that for years Oriani, Fleischmann
and I have believed that CF is extremely difficult for various reasons, and
we have said this time after time, but the message has not gotten through.
Especially, Scott Little never appreciated it, and I thought he did. There
has been a huge communication gap between us. I thought the difficulties
were common knowledge here with other readers of this forum, but I was
wrong. At the risk of boring my last remaining two readers to death, let me
again to to explain this . . .



Scott Little writes:

	Odd, I followed [Case's] instructions carefully.  Do you think
	he mislead me on purpose?

Of course not. It is a misunderstanding, or incomplete communication.
Scott: Your attitude and this kind of accusation will alienate Case and
others, including me. It is a good thing for this field that McKubre has
more patience than you do, and he is willing to continue the dialog and
continue learning from Case for many months. You apparently do not realize
how difficult it is to communicate everything a person needs to know to
replicate work-in-progress. Case mentioned some of the problems with your
experiment in a conversation with me months ago. I am sorry, but I do not
recall the details. I was more concerned with the mistakes *we* are making,
and why SRI has had better results.


	I expect [BLP] to want it.  We can muster resources that would
	dwarf their present funding.  All they have to do is allow the
	tests.

You need to communicate that fact to them, in person (on the phone I mean),
and you need to prove it them in writing. People often say they have large
sums of money to invest in this venture or that, in computers or CF. Very
often, the story is not true. Experienced entrepreneurs are jaded and do
not believe such stories without proof.


Mike Schaffer writes:

	Let's call a halt to attacks on Scott Little or anyone else.

There have been no attacks on Scott Little. I critiqued his work, which is
wide-open. It is published here and elsewhere, presumably to invite
critiques. Fleischmann, McKubre, Oriani and many others have pointed out
many technical weaknesses in it. I have summarized them and added some
thoughts of my own. It Scott cannot stand the heat he should get out of the
kitchen. In fact, he responded appropriately. He pointed out that he did
measure loading with the lost gas and resistivity methods, and he did
measure metal expansion. As I said, that is news to me. I do not recall
seeing this in his papers. Questions then arise, which he has not been
addressed here:

Did the loading measurement methods agree? Sometimes the gas method will
show 80% but resistivity will indicate much lower loading. The deuterium
has formed D2 and it is hiding in cracks, and the metal has swollen up. The
metal is wrecked, the experiment has failed.

Did the cathodes achieve high loading, above 80%? Very few cathodes do. If
he never achieved the necessary conditions his results prove nothing about
other experiments with hypersaturated, superconducting hydrides. Trying to
do CF with ordinary hydrides is exactly like trying to test ordinary,
non-superconducting materials for the Meissner effect. It is like trying to
make a fission reactor with ordinary iron or copper instead of radioactive
elements. (By the way, I do not think anyone has ever actually measured
superconductivity with a CF cathode at room temperature. That test would be
fraught with difficulties! But I have heard there is indirect evidence for
it, and back in the '70s someone showed that hydrides are low temperature
superconductors.)

Did he also measure high OCV with the highly loaded cathodes? This is also
necessary, according to Storms, Bockris and others?

In cathodes which showed high loading using the lost gas method, did he
observe minimal metal expansion (below 2%)? If the metal expanded, the
deuterium was going into cracks, and not into hydride solution. You have to
measure all parameters.


	Scott has contributed heavily and positively to this list.

Yes, but he has not performed cold fusion experiments. Good calorimetry,
but not cold fusion.


	He has many skills.

Indeed, but advanced electrochemistry are not among them. I think I have
demonstrated this by example, with many specific details. I cannot
understand why anyone, least of all Scott Little, disputes me. Has he or
has he not plowed through the Bockris textbooks, or some similar course of
learning? Has he written a PhD thesis level paper describing lattice
loading patterns or some other relevant problem. If he has not, what on
earth makes him think he can do experiments which people like Oriani say
are the most challenging they have ever attempted?!? As I said, I have
taken this for granted for many years, and I assumed other readers of this
forum appreciated the difficulties and the exacting, high level, advanced
physics & chemistry required to make serious contributions to this field.
For ten years, Fleischmann, McKubre, Bockris, Will and the others have been
saying this is extraordinarily difficult and involved, and they have given
lecture after lecture describing the difficulties. Has anyone been
listening? Scott Little attended ICCF-7 and saw this himself. Frankly, I am
astounded that he thinks that in a few months he can master an experiment
which challenges people like Oriani, Bockris and Miles. Miles spent nearly
a year struggling up the learning curve before he began to get meaningful
results, and he is a professor of electrochemistry and a Distinguished
Fellow of China Lake.

Oriani is one of the top electrochemists in the world. He is a walking
encyclopedia of information about metals, materials, hydrides, crystal
lattices, thermodynamics, and so on. Ask him about some aspect of the
experiment -- some obscure detail about metal grains or grain-to-grain
stresses or deuterium diffusion across grain boundaries -- and he can fill
the blackboard with diagrams & equations, and talk for an hour
extemporaneously. I saw him do that informally after his lecture at
Hokkaido University. At an ICCF conference he devoted an hour to grains and
lattices. These are subjects about which Scott Little and I know virtually
*nothing* in comparison. If you are not intimately familiar with atomic
structure in theory and experiment, and with advanced metallurgy, there is
no way you can make sense of the instrument readings and SEM photos. I look
at this experimental data and I see a blank. I see no clue about what has
gone wrong, or what to do next. Scott Little knows a great deal more
chemistry & physics than I do, but his papers do not give me the impression
that he can read the natural history of the experiment the way an
electrochemist can.


	P.S. Re Sweeping the lab to learn... Even scientists should
	clean up their own messes. However, grad students don't usually
	have to sweep the floors at our lab. We hire low skilled people
	to do routine jobs like that. Scientific training is not at all
	a matter of humiliations and initiation rites.

I referred to a clean room laboratory such as Mitsubishi's. I have never
been in one, but I heard that even the clean-up crew has to be trained. I
was not suggesting that humiliation or rituals are helpful. My point is
that many lab jobs look menial, but they are not, and if you do them wrong
the experiment will fail. There is no question that many cold fusion
experiments have failed because of contamination and improper preparation
of materials. Learning how to exclude contamination is essential, and
difficult.

 
	The student should learn the specialized skills that will make
	him or her a scientist. The training should be efficient. 
	Busywork, etc. isn't intelligent use of scarce resources.

Cleaning bottles in electrochemistry is not busywork. It may look like
busywork to an outsider, but it isn't. It is the reason experiments often
fail. That is my point. Actually, it isn't my point, it was made at high
decibels by Bockris to me. Bockris is famous for communicating . . .
forcefully.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 16 09:27:51 1999
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Subject: Mills to Little! (1)
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Yesterday, I received:

>Return-Path: <blp1 earthlink.net>
>Subject: OEM/developpment
>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 18:54:24 -0000
>From: "Dr. Randell L. Mills" <blp1 earthlink.net>
>To: "Scott Little" <little eden.com>
>
>Scott,
>     It is rare to find a physicist that will agree that a new energy 
>source exists based on calorimetry.  We have successfully repeated our 
>results with every laboratory with which we have worked.  In the case of 
>the electrolytic cells, we have had independent scientists at labs such 
>as MIT Lincoln Labs and INEL record multiples of the power out relative 
>to the total input power.  In the case of the gas cells, we have had 
>independent scientist at Penn State University and Atlantic Energy record 
>over 1000 times the energy of burning hydrogen.  The standard is the 
>identification of the product of the reaction.  I have predicted and 
>identified the product as lower-energy hydrogen compounds which may be 
>weighed, and the energy may be quantified analytically.  The energy may 
>also be confirmed by on-line UV and EUV spectroscopy.  If you are serious 
>about confirming that there is a new energy source, you will confirm the 
>process spectroscopically and confirm the product analytically.  Do you 
>have the capability to repeat the work that I have posted on the BLP web 
>page?
>
>Randy



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 16 09:28:35 1999
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From: Puthoff aol.com
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In a message dated 2/16/99 1:05:50 AM, mica world.std.com writes:

<< Why not measure the ZPE(vacuum)?  
  or is it infintesimally too small? >>

An excellent measurement was carried out by Steve Lamoreaux, now at Los
Alamos, and published in Phys. Rev. Letters, vol. 78, pp. 5-8, 6 January 1997.
The experimental results agreed with standard theory (which posits a large ZPE
background) to within 5%.  

See also New York Times writeup of Jan 21, 1997 about this experiment by
Science writer Malcolm Browne in an article "Physicists confirm power of
nothing, measuring force of quantum foam."

Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 16 09:34:19 1999
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Subject: Re: Avogadro's Number and a Neutrino Gas?
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:30:54 -0700
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To: Vortex

Could it be that Avogadro's Number/Law exists because a neutral
Neutrinos/Antineutrino "gas"
is taking up more space with less kinetic energy (1/2*mv^2)?

This might be the "Secret Ingredient" that dictates loading of
Hydrogen/Deuterium into Pd/Ni under different conditions as well as
catalyzing the "CF"/heat reactions.

They certainly can cause the "Zero Point Fluctuations" near 0 K, and the
"ethereal waves" around Scott's "ZPE Rotor".  :-)

With a rest mass less than 0.5 ev their kinetic energy: ~=
1/2*Mo[(E/Eo)+1]*c^2 and momentum
Mv ~= Mo[(E/Eo)+1]*c might be enough to cause the "ZPFs".

Maybe distilled/deionized water isn't the best
idea for the Potatov/Griggs devices either. :-)

Regards,   Frederick




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 16 09:36:42 1999
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Subject: Little to Mills (1)
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Here's my reply to Mills(1):

At 18:54 2/15/99 -0000, you wrote:

>     It is rare to find a physicist that will agree that a new energy 
>source exists based on calorimetry.

I've noticed that, too.  It's probably because it is so easy to make
mistakes in calorimetry.  However, that does not change the fact that the
production of sustained heat energy in excess of the total input energy is
the most fundamental indication of a new energy source.

The sole purpose of my testing your device is to convince Puthoff and
myself that your hydrino phenomenon is genuine.  We are primarily
interested in the energy-producing aspects of hydrinos...so we prefer a
calorimetric test.

>We have successfully repeated our 
>results with every laboratory with which we have worked.

Wonderful.  It sounds as if a successful test is guaranteed.

>In the case of 
>the electrolytic cells, we have had independent scientists at labs such 
>as MIT Lincoln Labs and INEL record multiples of the power out relative 
>to the total input power.  In the case of the gas cells, we have had 
>independent scientist at Penn State University and Atlantic Energy record 
>over 1000 times the energy of burning hydrogen.

Ideally, we would like to test a gas-phase experiment.

>The standard is the 
>identification of the product of the reaction.  I have predicted and 
>identified the product as lower-energy hydrogen compounds which may be 
>weighed, and the energy may be quantified analytically.  The energy may 
>also be confirmed by on-line UV and EUV spectroscopy.  If you are serious 
>about confirming that there is a new energy source, you will confirm the 
>process spectroscopically and confirm the product analytically.

I agree in principle.  However, unlike most labs, we have already invested
years of time and effort in development of accurate, reliable calorimetry.
We have successfully applied our calorimetry under highly diverse
conditions.  As a result of this effort we now have a fully portable
calorimeter that is amazingly versatile and accurate.  It is described at:

http://www.eden.com/~little/vwfc/vwfc.html

>Do you 
>have the capability to repeat the work that I have posted on the BLP web 
>page?

In general, yes.  I am an expert in x-ray fluorescence spectroscopy (having
co-founded ASOMA Instruments, Inc.) and a student of many other
spectroscopies and scientific disciplines.  We have a complete physics
laboratory here, including machine shop.  We can quickly and easily
fabricate/acquire virtually any required apparatus.  However, the fastest
way for us to become convinced of your discovery is calorimetric testing of
one of your own excess heat devices.  With our portable calorimeter, I
could perform the necessary tests at your facility in 2 days.

Although it would appear that you have sufficient funding and business
structure in place, we are in a position to bring to the table essentially
unlimited financial resources from a private investor with excellent
connections in the international community.  We consider this one of our
most valuable resources with regard to a smooth transition to a new energy
economy.

Scott R. Little
Harold E. Puthoff


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 16 09:48:40 1999
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At 10:45 2/16/99 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>	Odd, I followed [Case's] instructions carefully.  Do you think
>	he mislead me on purpose?
>
>Of course not. It is a misunderstanding, or incomplete communication.
>Scott: Your attitude and this kind of accusation...

It's not an accusation, it's an honest question.  Case assisted me openly
in my experiments and my results were negative.  Later he says...not to me,
but to others...that I didn't do the experiments correctly.  How should I
interpret his actions?

>Has he or has he not plowed through the Bockris textbooks...

I'm working on them...and "plow" is the right term for it...<g>  BTW, I
like the first edition (1970) of Modern Electrochemistry 1 better than the
second (1998)...at least for now.  Authors tend to cut out some of the
valuable background and support information in later editions.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 16 11:59:24 1999
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Regarding his suspicion that Case misled him on purpose, Scott Little writes:

	It's not an accusation, it's an honest question.  Case assisted
	me openly in my experiments and my results were negative.

Yes, same with us and SRI. All negative at first. Do you suppose he misled
all three of us? Why? And how did SRI and Russ George manage to get
positive results later? (PRELIMINARY positive results.) We are still
negative but still at it. Case is not a bit upset with us, despite our
negative results which we published in the magazine. Obviously he does not
mind when people fail to replicate him, and obviously he is not misleading
people. I think the problem might lie on your side, if there is a problem
at all. It might be your imagination. Perhaps if you get back to work you
will find him cooperative.

I do not know what his attitude is, but if he is upset with you, it may be
because you sometimes -- occasionally -- put on airs and act as if you are
the final arbiter of calorimetry. I find that attitude annoying myself. I
would not collaborate with an amateur know-it-all electrochemist who thinks
that *his* results somehow undermine work by Fritz Will or Richard Oriani.
A person who claims *there might be a mistake* in the calorimetry of
Bockris or McKubre, yet who refuses to suggest where these phantom error
might lie, is tiresome and irrational. As I said before, this is a lot like
me comparing my programming skills to those of Niklaus Wirth, the God of
Structured Programming.

I doubt you have any clear idea whether you ever formed supersaturated
palladium. As I said, you would have to measure loading and metal expansion
with the same sample, and I have heard it would be a good idea to graph the
phase changes and watch the bubble formation and OCV before drawing any
conclusions. You should explore a small number of promising samples, say 20
to 50, for months or years, until you have mapped out loading performance
and the physical characteristics of each sample in detail. Unless you have
compiled that kind of information, I do not see how you can know whether
your palladium is any good or whether your experiments prove anything or not.

Of course, Case hopes to do an end run around these issues, by searching
for material that has already been perfected by the manufacturer, for
another purpose. Whether he has succeeded or not remains to be seen. If,
someday, the proper characteristics for bulk palladium can be defined in
detail, for things like grain size and trace dopants, I see no reason why
it cannot be mass produced. It should be no more difficult to make than
than other catalysts.


	Later he says...not to me, but to others...that I didn't do the
	experiments correctly.

I am sure he will tell you loud & clear if you ask. He will tell anyone. He
is not reticent about expressing opinions.


	How should I interpret his actions?

With more communication, less snit. A dose of humility might help.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 16 13:03:39 1999
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At 12:26 PM 2/16/99 EST, Puthoff aol.com wrote:
>
>In a message dated 2/16/99 1:05:50 AM, mica world.std.com writes:
>
><< Why not measure the ZPE(vacuum)?  
>  or is it infintesimally too small? >>
>
>An excellent measurement was carried out by Steve Lamoreaux, now at Los
>Alamos, and published in Phys. Rev. Letters, vol. 78, pp. 5-8, 6 January
1997.
>The experimental results agreed with standard theory (which posits a large
ZPE
>background) to within 5%.  



  Am aware of that.   

  Did YOU confirm his measurement in your lab?

  Why is such a confirmation (not?) applicable to Scott's
calorimetry?  

  Did you calculate how much energy Lamoreaux obtained 
 (or energy density, or power density?)  
  BTW, it hardly seems like energy sufficient to
  "boil off all the oceans of the Earth".

  ==================================================

>See also New York Times writeup of Jan 21, 1997 about this experiment by
>Science writer Malcolm Browne in an article "Physicists confirm power of
>nothing, measuring force of quantum foam."
>
>Hal Puthoff
>

   Yes, but NYTimes is no substitute for the science article
or for a scientific analysis of it, of course.  ;-)X

    Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 16 13:15:45 1999
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Scott -

Contact!

:)

Congratulations. I sure hope something develops.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 16 14:29:51 1999
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Here are some quotes from an Associated Press article, February 12, 1999,
"Scientists Duplicate Cancer Breakthrough." This is a familiar story:

	Government scientists have finally managed to duplicate a
	Harvard doctor's success with an experimental cancer treatment
	that wipes out tumors in mice, and they plan to begin human
	testing by fall.

	The closely watched developments involve a natural protein
	called endostatin [and angiostatin] . . .

	The two proteins have been the subject of a roller coaster of
	speculation ever since an enthusiastic front-page story in The
	New York Times last May on Dr. Judah Folkman and his
	experiments. But doubts grew last fall when scientists at the
	National Cancer Institute in Frederick, Md., were not able to
	reproduce Folkman's results.

	This week, an NCI team said it had duplicated Folkman's work.
	The breakthrough using endostatin came when the NCI scientists
	did the experiments at Folkman's laboratory at Children's
	Hospital in Boston. . . .

	Endostatin and angiostatin are being developed by EntreMed Inc.,
	a small biotech company in Rockville, Md., whose stock price has
	risen and plunged with news on the drugs.

There are some clear lessons for cold fusion scientists in this story:

You will never replicate until you *spend time in the lab, shoulder to
shoulder with the original researcher*. If your device works, you must open
the door to others after you file for a patent. If IMRA had been more open
about their work, and if they had invited in researchers from Motorola,
Shell, Exxon, and given them hands on training, we would have cold fusion
powered prototype automobiles by now, and in a generation Toyota would be
the largest and most powerful corporation on earth by a wide margin.
Unfortunately, they chose to keep everything secret instead. The only
people given an opportunity to learn about the research in detail were the
program leaders from NEDO, but informed sources tell me they passed it up,
and devoted their time in France to playing golf instead. In any case, I am
not talking about the leading researchers. The hands-on scientists,
technicians and engineers must be taught directly, by example, in the lab.

In 1948, as soon as AT&T filed for a patent for transistors, they began
shipping sample devices to leading U.S. laboratories including the Army
Signal Corps, Los Alamos, the Naval Research Laboratory General Electric,
Motorola, RCA, Westinghouse and others. [Riordan and Hoddeson, p. 169]

This was four years before a working theory was devised and the first
practical device was fabricated, and it was eight years before the devices
were fit for commercial applications. One scientists recollected, "in the
very early days the performance of a transistor was apt to change if
someone slammed a door." As late as 1955 there were still major open
questions about transistor theory and practice.

In September 1951, seven busloads of the nation's top scientists and
engineers were invited to Bell Labs Murray Hill laboratory for a five-day
symposium on transistors performance and applications. Manufacturing
processes were not revealed. The manufacturing technology behind the
transistor, particularly the zone refining purification techniques, were as
astounding as the device itself. In 1951 AT&T and the Joint Chiefs of Staff
argued over whether the device should be classified. AT&T wanted to reveal
full details of the device. (This was partly in response to pressure from
the antitrust case; I expect the Justice Department also wanted openness.)
AT&T prevailed, but it did agree "to guard the special manufacturing
processes so essential to the success of transistor development." In April
1952 another nine-day hands-on training seminar was held for companies that
had paid the patent licensing fees. This time, AT&T revealed the
manufacturing techniques. Mark Shepherd, a Texas Instruments engineer,
recalled: "they worked the dickens out of us. They did a very good job; it
was very open and really very helpful." [R&H, p. 196 - 197, and other
sources.]

Other companies soon began manufacturing transistors and paying AT&T
royalties. In some applications, Texas Instruments and other soon
outstripped AT&T, producing better transistors than AT&T knew how to make.
AT&T purchased these devices and saved astronomical amounts of money in
their telephone network. They probably could not have instituted long
distance direct dial without the reliability and low cost of transistors.
Long distance telephone service, needless to say, is one of the most
profitable ventures in world history. AT&T could not have done it if they
had not encouraged others to buy their technology, and they could have
*given away the technology for free* and still benefitted beyond all measure.

If the leading edge cold fusion scientists were to follow the example set
by Bell Labs, they would soon be richer than Bill Gates. If Blacklight
Power or CETI have what they claim, in a few years they could be earning
billions of dollars per year. I expect they will not follow this model. I
expect they will squander their investment capital, wither away, and never
be heard from again.

Bell Labs did not remain on the cutting edge for long. In the 1960s they
ignored the development of the integrated circuits for several years, and
paid a huge price for their tardiness.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 16 14:30:04 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: De Ninno's conclusions
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I mentioned this De Ninno paper. Here are some of the conclusions from
ICCF7, p. 107:

	We have shown that the microstructure of the palladium and in
	particular its average grain size strongly affects its
	capability of absorbing Hydrogen: H concentration versus the
	average grain size shows a maximum for grain size of about 50
	microns, which appears so to be the best value to obtain high
	loading ratios. . . .

	In this picture the material microstructure affects in an
	effective way the H(D) distribution inside the sample during the
	charging experiment, as well as the Pd ability to stress relief
	by plastic deformations. It is well known that the mechanical
	properties of a material are enhanced by a small value of the
	average grain size as stated by the Hall-Petch relationships; a
	softer sample, with a coarse grain structure can then relax a
	stress field more easily by plastic deformation . . .

	On the other hand we have shown that the process is quite
	complex and not completely understood . . . We obtained, with
	satisfactory reproducibility, concentrations greater than 0.95
	of Hydrogen and greater than 0.9 of Deuterium in palladium with
	samples of approximately 50 microns of grain size

	Also thin films can be used to improve the number of H(D) atoms
	per Pd atom; however, some technical problems as film adhesion
	to substrate and its behaviour in electrolysis must be yet
	solved.

This last problem is noted by everyone who tries thin films cathodes. The
pressure from electrolysis tears it off the substrate. With bulk cathodes,
pressure will bend or twist the metal, unless loading is evenly distributed.

- JR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 17 02:22:42 1999
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:20:32 -0700
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To: Vortex

The omnipresent "Neutrino Gas" composed of Neutrinos and Antineutrinos with
a rest mass of
0.5 ev where the neutrino with a transitory charge y = cos x wrt regular
charge y = sin x can couple to a proton or deuteron and be given
a relativistic mass, Mrel = Mo[(E/Eo)+1] where Mo = Eo/c^2, with the
liberation of energy.

The "centrifugal" Force balances with the electrostatic Force, Fes:

Fc = Mrel*c^2/R = k*(cos q)*q/R^2

Forming a composite with a net charge slighty less than regular
electron/proton charge q.

This would explain how quantum mechanical tunneling can occur allowing
"CF"/Heat reactions sans gammas/neutrons, since the neutrino could come off
with large energies and be undetected.
By the same token it would explain Mills' Hydrino/Deutrino "fractional
orbits" and Hydrino/Deutrino "Compounds" since the fractional residual
charge would set up conditions for the electron to form a plethora
of "chemical" states with the almost-neutral Hydrinos. Most likely the
Deutrino would dissociate forming a Hydrino and a Neutron.

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 17 06:17:30 1999
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Subject: excess heat
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Dear Dr. De Ninno,

I was reading your paper in the ICCF-7 abstracts and noticed that you did
not mention obtaining excess heat from your cells.  

Have you observed excess heat in your cells yet?  

If so, I would greatly appreciate a brief description of your findings.

Thank you,




Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 17 06:18:10 1999
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De Ninno states, "We have studied the influence of the microstructure of Pd
samples on the features of the Hydrogen(Deuterium) loading process in order
to improve the reproducibility of excess heat experiments."

....but there is nothing mentioned about excess heat in the conclusions.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 17 07:17:02 1999
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Subject: Is ZPE(v) is too small to be important?
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  ** On ZPE(vacuum) {as distinguished from ZPE(lattice)}

Previously:
At 12:42 AM 2/16/99 -0600, Scott Little wrote:
>Have calorimeter, will travel to promising experiments!

to which was asked:
  "Why not measure the ZPE(vacuum)?"  (like the Lamoreaux expt.)
  "or is it infintesimally too small?
  Hal's paper(?) was just posted on spf.  Why not
use your in-house expertise to see if it is real?"


  to which Hal Puthoff posted, but did not actually answer:
  "An excellent measurement was carried out by Steve Lamoreaux, now at Los
Alamos, and published in Phys. Rev. Letters, vol. 78, pp. 5-8, 6 January 1997.
The experimental results agreed with standard theory (which posits a large ZPE
background) to within 5%.  
See also New York Times writeup of Jan 21, 1997 about this experiment by
Science writer Malcolm Browne in an article "Physicists confirm power of
nothing, measuring force of quantum foam."
 

  to which was responded:
  "Am aware of that.   
   Did YOU confirm his measurement in your lab?
   Why is such a confirmation (not?) applicable to Scott's
      calorimetry?  
   Did you calculate how much energy Lamoreaux obtained 
 (or energy density, or power density?)  
  BTW, it hardly seems like energy sufficient to
  "boil off all the oceans of the Earth". ..."

    
   The lack of response to the three questions
suggests that Steve Lamoreaux's purported ZPE(v) 
measurement was not, or could not, be confirmed 
at Earthtech.

  Also, this suggests that ZPE(v) is extremely small, in 
comparison to cold fusion [eg. http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html ]
and other systems.

    Mitchell Swartz





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 17 08:05:32 1999
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Subject: Re: De Ninno's conclusions
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Scott Little writes:

	De Ninno states, "We have studied the influence of the
	microstructure of Pd . . .

	....but there is nothing mentioned about excess heat in the
	conclusions.

That is in the next paper, pp. 108 - 112. See Figs 1 and 3. For bulk Pd
tested at ENEA and SRI, excess was small but significant: 50 to 150 mW.
Excess heat was correlated with grain size, as described in the first
paper. For 1000 A thin film Pd on Ni, excess ranged from 0 to 250 mW,
depending on loading. Heat increased exponentially with loading, which was
measured by the R/R0 (resistivity) technique.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 17 08:11:51 1999
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In a message dated 2/17/99 9:16:16 AM, mica world.std.com writes:

<< The lack of response to the three questions
suggests that Steve Lamoreaux's purported ZPE(v) 
measurement was not, or could not, be confirmed 
at Earthtech. >>

Didn't need to.  Colleagues with whom we are in touch recently confirmed
Steve's measurement to an even higher accuracy of 1% by use of an atomic force
microscope.  That's good enough confirmation for us.  See U. Mohideen and A.
Roy, "Precision measurement of the Casimir force from 0.1 to 0.9 mu m," Phys.
Rev. Lett., vol. 81, p. 4549 (1998).

Best regards,
Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 17 08:16:49 1999
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Hal Puthoff writes:

	Didn't need to.  Colleagues with whom we are in touch recently
	confirmed Steve's measurement to an even higher accuracy of 1%
	by use of an atomic force microscope.

ZPE appears as a force, not as excess heat. Right? You cannot measure it
with a calorimeter unless you build a machine that is driven by ZPE, which
I presume is impossible at this stage.

That's a shame. It would not have to be a complicated machine. A tuning
fork would do.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 17 09:24:54 1999
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At 11:08 AM 2/17/99 EST, Puthoff aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 2/17/99 9:16:16 AM, mica world.std.com writes:
>
><< The lack of response to the three questions
>suggests that Steve Lamoreaux's purported ZPE(v) 
>measurement was not, or could not, be confirmed 
>at Earthtech. >>
>
>Didn't need to.  Colleagues with whom we are in touch recently confirmed
>Steve's measurement to an even higher accuracy of 1% by use of an atomic
force
>microscope.  That's good enough confirmation for us.  See U. Mohideen and A.
>Roy, "Precision measurement of the Casimir force from 0.1 to 0.9 mu m," Phys.
>Rev. Lett., vol. 81, p. 4549 (1998).
>Best regards,
>Hal Puthoff

  Thanks for the partial answer, Hal.  
  Have done that too.
  First, it doesnt seem that way.
  Perhaps you should - if you have not, given your labs
"crusade" to investigate purported overunity and cold
fusion claims, and given your background in this ZPE(v) field.
Given that your (royal you) replication results in cf 
(widely confirmed worldwide) have not been able to confirm other
numerous labs http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrefs.html#papers
it would seem that given your known expertise in 
the ZPE(v) field, that ZPE(v) might be the 
ideal place to begin using Scott's calorimeter. Right?

  Second, BTW you did not respond to 
the ? re: energy density, or power density
which it seems for ZPE(v) might be a power density
of femtowatts (just guessing without calculation) 
or less or the size of a "coffee cup". 
  Don't you agree?  or do you include ZPE(lattice)
and any photons just having to already be in the
size volume?  I am excluding those in my model
in which for the gendanken experiment on the 
"vacuum" subtended by the volume contributes
its purported ZPE(v).

  Best wishes.
    Mitchell Swartz




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 17 09:51:41 1999
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At 10:11 2/17/99 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>   Why is such a confirmation (not?) applicable to Scott's
>      calorimetry?  

As Jed surmised, the manifestation of the ZPF measured by these recent
experiments is a small force between two conductive objects...the Casimir
force.  

>   Did you calculate how much energy Lamoreaux obtained 
> (or energy density, or power density?)  

Lamoreaux and Mohideen didn't obtain energy to speak of...they measured
forces.

>  BTW, it hardly seems like energy sufficient to
>  "boil off all the oceans of the Earth". ..."

That's because the conductive objects employed in a typical Casimir force
experiment influence only the tiniest fraction of the modes in the ZPF.
What's  significant about these experiments is that the observed force
AGREES with values calculated using the standard ZPF energy density
spectrum.  That spectrum, integrated over all possible modes, yields an
enormous energy density for the vacuum.  John Wheeler, Richard Feynman,
Timothy Boyer, Robert Forward, and many other physicists accept the
existence of THIS zero-point field in the vacuum.

Note that the existence of this ZPE does not guarantee that we can build a
transducer to tap it. That question is the subject of much of our work here.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 17 10:00:05 1999
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To: deninno frascati.enea.it
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: excess heat #2
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Dear Dr. De Ninno,

Thanks to Jed Rothwell, I now have read your second ICCF-7 paper which
discusses your excess heat results!  

Can you tell me what was the total input power when you observed 100-200
millwatts of excess heat?  In other words, I would like to know the
signal/background ratio for these observations.

Since ICCF-7, have you succeeded in observing higher levels of excess heat? 

Thanks in advance.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 17 10:50:45 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Jed,

In your Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990216172648.0079c8d0 pop.mindspring.com>;
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:26:48 -0500, you wrote:

"If the leading edge cold fusion scientists were to follow the example set
by Bell Labs, they would soon be richer than Bill Gates. If Blacklight
Power or CETI have what they claim, in a few years they could be earning
billions of dollars per year. I expect they will not follow this model. I
expect they will squander their investment capital, wither away, and never
be heard from again."

CETI may wither away, because James Patterson doesn't seem to be interested
anymore in figuring out how those PowerGen'95 beads managed to produce so much
excess heat, and because their other principal researcher in excess heat,
Dennis Cravens, doesn't seem to be working for CETI anymore, but why do you
think that BLP will wither away?  (And CETI might make a comeback, if they
ever realized that Mills has the right explanation for excess heat and if they
acted on it.  Who knows, those PowerGen'95 beads might have serendipitously
had an interface that brought the Pd/O2 catalytic couple into play or perhaps
a lithium/hydrogen catalytic couple.  But they're very unlikely to recreate
that if they don't even try.)

When CETI was founded, they could claim to be competition for Mills' company,
then called HydroCatalysis Power Corp., but now BLP is in a league of its own.
Mills has made one discovery after another since he first surfaced in 1991 and
has steadily expanded his company, the very opposite of withering away.  He
knows what produces the excess heat in his cells, which is a huge advantage.
And he has top-notch advisors.  

I'm not a financier, so maybe I'm wrong about this, but I think that Mills
could go public today if he wanted to and sell 10% (ten percent) of his
company for $100 million (one hundred million dollars), possibly more.  As you
have pointed out, it's a hot stock market these days.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 17 10:51:15 1999
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Well, well, well, ...  Congratulations, Scott!

I hope that something comes of this correspondence.  If it does, then be
prepared for the biggest surprise of your career.

Good luck.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 17 10:52:16 1999
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Another question for R. O. Briggs.  

You wrote that Mills "was very upset when Infinite Energy published an
interview even though it was very favorable toward him and his work."

How do you know that?  (Just asking.)  

It's easy to see why Mills might be upset to see his work discussed in the
context of hopeless O.U. devices; but personally, I agree with the old show
business maxim:  any publicity is good publicity, as long as they spell the
name right.  Mills is fortunate to have a last name that's easy to spell.
(His first name does sometimes give people trouble, though:  it's Randell, not
Randall.)

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 17 12:51:23 1999
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In a message dated 2/17/99 10:52:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, Tstolper aol.com
writes:

<< Another question for R. O. Briggs.  
 
 You wrote that Mills "was very upset when Infinite Energy published an
 interview even though it was very favorable toward him and his work."
 
 How do you know that?  (Just asking.)  
  >>
I  think my source for that information was a conversation with Gene Malove at
the ICCF-7 conference.  I even vaguely remember talk of a threatened legal
action.  

Perhaps Gene could confirm or contradict the information.  

Bob Briggs

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In a message dated 2/16/99 6:08:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, editor infinite-
energy.com writes:

<< I suppose if you tell them that the money will come FREE , i.e. a 
 contribution instead of an investment, they might even let you set up 
 shop in their lab! It would be worth a try. Since your sources have such 
 deep pockets -- I believe this completely! -- why don't they just GIVE 
 the whole field some money and stop screwing around? It seems a bit 
 unfair to have folks like McKubre, Storms, Orin, and others partially 
 starving -- all waiting on the say-so of  EarthTech. How about having 
 your sources talk directly to McKubre et al for a second opinion? I'm 
 sure they'd still keep you on the payroll even if they came to believe 
 him more than you. >>

Hay Gene, this sounds like something from the "Daily Worker" not our voice of
free enterprise, the entrepreneur Gene Malove.

I don't know who Scott's backer is, but pattern recognition says that it is
probably a very successful business person looking for a major new investment
opportunity.  I'm sure he is not an altruist looking to set up a technological
- socialist utopia.  But even charitable institutions like the David Packard
Foundation hire someone to evaluate candidates before they write a check.

Investment is not the same as welfare.  We have government welfare programs to
take care of the starving people and government giveaway programs to take care
of hot fusion and other techno-political big deals.  These two examples
suggest that if you want to ruin a segment of society, just GIVE it lots of
money.

Scott's backer probably doesn't have time, qualifications or patience to do
all of the work that he has contracted with EarthTech for.  If he tried to do
the work that he delegates to Scott and others, no one would be doing his job
and he wouldn't be a successful business man.  He has selected someone in whom
he has confidence to do the investigation and identify realistic investment
candidates for him.  I think that probably even Mr. Dean and Mr. Witter hire
security analysts to check out potential investments for them.

I'm guessing that the backer has sufficient confidence in Scott that when
Scott says "This one looks promising.",  he will put his own time, judgment
and, if justified, money into the next step.  I would also guess that when
Scott sees something exciting, his backer will want to consult other experts,
but this is in no way a threat to Scott's contractual relationship unless he
screws up badly.  If Scott is any good, his backer will continue to need him. 

Whoever the backer is, I think he is pretty darned smart to have engaged Scott
and invested his money and confidence in Scott's judgment.  Scott's
assignments, whether in his contract or not, obviously include saving his
backer's time and protecting his privacy while finding the investment
opportunity.

I might be wrong about Scott's backer, but I'm not wrong about the destructive
power of FREE MONEY.

Bob Briggs, Engineer, Capitalist

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 17 13:10:25 1999
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: High pressure Steam and Hydrogen Discharge Anomalies
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:06:20 -0700
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To: Vortex

Lutz ca.1925 reported the inability to get stable electrical discharges in
steam even at 20 atmospheres.  C.G. (Guy) Suits did extensive research in
this area with hydrogen and noticed
similar effects. Suits' work is published in the mid to late 1930's
literature.(about 1500 volts at ? amperes).

It looks like Vince Cockeram's experiments with added Potassium or Potassium
compounds are on the right track wrt the Hydrino etc. if done
properly.

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 17 13:44:49 1999
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re; High Pressure Oil-Potassium-Hydrogen Experiment
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TO; Vortex

A piece of 1.25 inch steel barstock drilled to
accept a sparkplug tap partially filled with a light oil (kerosene or
diesel) with a few grams of potassium metal held away from the spark gap
should dissociate the oil, CxHy to hydrogen, hydrocarbons, and carbon when a
few kilovolts at several milliamps A.C. is applied.

One should be able to immerse this in a dewar (soup thermos) filled with
water and with a thermometer for the calorimetry see what develops.

STAND BACK TOO,THE SPARKPLUG INSULATOR COULD BECOME A PROJECTILE!

Regards,   Frederick

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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
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In the summertime the Guy Suits used to fly his private seaplane to work
from Lake George in the Adirondaks where he had a cottage. He landed in the
Mohawk River just behind the GE Research Lab where he was CEO. Facilities
built a private seaplane landing for him there.

Hank.

> ----------
> From: 	Frederick J Sparber[SMTP:fjsparb sprintmail.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Wednesday, February 17, 1999 1:06 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: High pressure Steam and Hydrogen Discharge Anomalies
> 
> To: Vortex
> 
> Lutz ca.1925 reported the inability to get stable electrical discharges in
> steam even at 20 atmospheres.  C.G. (Guy) Suits did extensive research in
> this area with hydrogen and noticed
> similar effects. Suits' work is published in the mid to late 1930's
> literature.(about 1500 volts at ? amperes).
> 
> It looks like Vince Cockeram's experiments with added Potassium or
> Potassium
> compounds are on the right track wrt the Hydrino etc. if done
> properly.
> 
> Regards,   Frederick
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 17 15:08:52 1999
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
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Subject: Re: another try at BLP
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:15:24 -0500
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Tom Stolper wrote:

>It seems to me that a rise in temperature of 200 degrees C, even at Vince's
>one measuring point, was one heck of a strong result.  I'm sorry that I was
>unsubscribed when it occurred.  And his setup looks like something your lab
>could handle without much strain.  Why didn't you try to replicate Vince's
>experiment?
-
Tom, FYI the graphical summary of all of Vince's data published to date is still
available for viewing on my web site: http://www.varisys.com/vortex.htm

Scott, great news that Mills has answered your emails. In case this does
not work out with BLP, I would like to second Tom's suggestion of following up
on Vince's work with a measurement trip and/or a replication. The provision of
sufficient quantities of H atoms and K+ is very certain in Vince's
configuration compared to your earlier BLP replication attempts. I
believe that there are straightforward ways to improve the efficiency
of this device, certainly for the production of hydrino compounds, and
possibly even to an efficiency suitable for power generation.
Study carefully the graphic evidence at http://www.varisys.com/vortex.htm .
It is difficult to explain all of the results without OU. If Mills is correct
Vince's results are just what would be expected.

FYI, here is a copy of my last email to vortex-l about Vince's experiment on
8/4/98.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Michael Schaffer comments on the new graphs of Vince Cockeram's experiment:

>The data show that Vince's system is not yet a calorimeter:
>1. The resistive calibration run gives a T/P  (temperature divided by
>power, or degree per watt) that varies over more than a 2 to 1 range. A
>good calorimeter would show a constant T/P.
>
This is obviously true, no claim that this system functions as a calorimeter
has been made. The consistency of  the resistive calibration data is
interesting, however, when compared to the highly variable results
in some of the with K runs.
>
>2. Most of the data taken with K in the tube lies between two "calibration"
>data sets. Here I consider the "no K .5" gap" data to be calibration data,
>because they are meant to be a "no OU" case.
The no K .5" gap case was intended to be a calibration for the
previous with K .5" gap case.
>
>The "no K .5" gap" data lie
>farther from the resistive calibration data, in the sense of perpendicular
>distances between the curves, than all but one of the potassium data sets.
>In other words, all but one of the potassium data sets lie in the wide
>uncertainty range between the two "no OU" or "calibration" sets. Clearly,
>one can only conclude that any correlation between T and P is too loose to
>say anything about power from a measurement of T.
-
After Vince started running experiments with varying electrode gaps,
it became clear that the thermocouple readings were strongly
influenced by the smaller heated region with smaller gaps, and that
even for 2" gaps, the original resistive calibration was not very accurate
due to the different heat distribution. It is therefore necessary to
restrict comparisons to those between runs with the same gap.
Pressure also appears to have some influence on measured
temperature in the last no K run, where it was varied over a
2 to 12 inHg range. Most of the variability that prevents you from
drawing conclusions from the data is removed when these
considerations are used to select appropriate runs for
comparison.
-
Some of the clearest differences with and
without K are found in the very similar runs with .5" gap.
The remaining major difference other than K was that the
no K runs were at a lower pressures. Based on the measurements
of pressure dependence and my experience in other gas
discharge devices, I would expect the higher pressure of
the with K test to result in a thermal profile giving lower thermocouple
readings. The with K run however, averaged 19.3 deg. C per watt while
the no K run averaged 14.0 deg. C per watt.
-
These experiments are very suggestive but far from proving OU operation.
Either much larger thermal output/input ratios or calorimetric
evaluation could provide this proof with independent replications.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regards,
George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
1924 US Hwy 22 East            Bound Brook NJ 08805





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 17 15:54:26 1999
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Subject: your K-H cell
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Hi Vince,

What's the latest with your K-H cell?  Are you planning to resume
experimentation?

The suggestion has been made on Vortex several times lately that I perform
a calorimetric measurement on your cell....or a copy thereof. 

Can you produce a description of the cell and your operating protocol (the
one that made the most apparent excess heat) sufficiently detailed that I
could replicate your experiment?

...or maybe you should just send me your cell.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 17 22:21:06 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Is ZPE(v) is too small to be important?
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 06:19:29 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:51:03 -0600, Scott Little wrote:
[snip]
>spectrum.  That spectrum, integrated over all possible modes, yields an
>enormous energy density for the vacuum.  John Wheeler, Richard Feynman,
>Timothy Boyer, Robert Forward, and many other physicists accept the
>existence of THIS zero-point field in the vacuum.
>
>Note that the existence of this ZPE does not guarantee that we can build a
>transducer to tap it. That question is the subject of much of our work here.
[snip]
New Scientist of 13 feb. No. 2173 has an interesting article ("Cosmic
crystal") that may bear on this, on page 42.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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Subject: Re: Is ZPE(v) is too small to be important?
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At 11:51 AM 2/17/99 -0600, Scott Little wrote:
>At 10:11 2/17/99 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>
>>   Why is such a confirmation (not?) applicable to Scott's
>>      calorimetry?  
>
>As Jed surmised, the manifestation of the ZPF measured by these recent
>experiments is a small force between two conductive objects...the Casimir
>force.  
>
>>   Did you calculate how much energy Lamoreaux obtained 
>> (or energy density, or power density?)  
>
>Lamoreaux and Mohideen didn't obtain energy to speak of...they measured
>forces.

   Then why call is Zero Point Energy?   ;-)X

If they did not obtain an energy, and if you are now
making ZPE redefined as ZPF, then consider that energy
is force * distance, and tell me if you agree that the
most available over a coffee cup volume is ~femtowatt,
or less?

   =================================================

>>  BTW, it hardly seems like energy sufficient to
>>  "boil off all the oceans of the Earth". ..."
>
>That's because the conductive objects employed in a typical Casimir force
>experiment influence only the tiniest fraction of the modes in the ZPF.
>What's  significant about these experiments is that the observed force
>AGREES with values calculated using the standard ZPF energy density
>spectrum.  That spectrum, integrated over all possible modes, yields an
>enormous energy density for the vacuum.  John Wheeler, Richard Feynman,
>Timothy Boyer, Robert Forward, and many other physicists accept the
>existence of THIS zero-point field in the vacuum.

   Most do not think it amounts to more than the uncertainty of energy
over that volume, so your measurements of more might go far to
improve the theory of your compatriot Hal, and others who purport
that much more exists, and is extractable.

 QUARIE: It is a little like claiming that the energy of the
covalent bond (which is greater than ZPE(v) over the same
volume) will "enable and power future spaceflight".  [In
fact, the covalent bond is at the energy minimum, and energy is
required to break the bond ( = the bond energy, which is the
integral under the force-distance curve).


   =================================================

>Note that the existence of this ZPE does not guarantee that we can build a
>transducer to tap it. That question is the subject of much of our work here.


   Thus, the question remains:  what is the energy available? and
how can your calorimeter detect it, and separate larger
amounts of energy in the same volume 
such as photons in the field (etc.), or ZPE(lattice), etc.?

 As it stands today, ZPE(vac) - or as now defined ZPForce(vac) -
is too small to be removed for useful purpose, and/or
measured by such s simple calorimetry system, it seems.  ;-(

   Have a good day.
     Mitchell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 05:10:57 1999
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Bob wrote:


>I  think my source for that information was a conversation with Gene 
>Malove at
>the ICCF-7 conference.  I even vaguely remember talk of a threatened legal
>action. 

Probably so. 

Mills was unhappy that interviewer Art Rosenblum had agreed to give IE 
the interview for republication. Mills, once he gave the interview with 
no restrictions, had no leg to stand on about holding it back. It was now 
owned by Art. He consulted with his attornesy, according to Rosenblu, but 
nothing ever came of it. I understand that Mills respects IE, even though 
he prefers not to associate too closely with anyone in CF. 

I think the histoical record should be kept clear: Even though Mills had 
his theory before F&P's announcement, there is no doubt that the 
announcement on March 23, 1989 was what triggered his energy work and his 
patent application.. Fleischmann had ideas about nuclear reactions in 
metals possibly before Mills entered high school -- as the next issue of 
IE will reveal in an essay by Martin! Coming  in late March.....

I wish Mills well, though I am disappointed that he has not come out yet 
with power generating devices. I think the greatest joy about the BLP 
news is where it is, Princeton -- for maximium brain-sucking effect from 
PPPL.
>
>Perhaps Gene could confirm or contradict the information.  
>
>Bob Briggs

Best,

Gene

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

Ph:  603-228-4516
Fax: 603-224-5975

  editor infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 05:11:03 1999
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Bob Briggs wrote:

>In a message dated 2/16/99 6:08:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, editor infinite-
>energy.com writes:
>
><< I suppose if you tell them that the money will come FREE , i.e. a 
> contribution instead of an investment, they might even let you set up 
> shop in their lab! It would be worth a try. Since your sources have such 
> deep pockets -- I believe this completely! -- why don't they just GIVE 
> the whole field some money and stop screwing around? It seems a bit 
> unfair to have folks like McKubre, Storms, Orin, and others partially 
> starving -- all waiting on the say-so of  EarthTech. How about having 
> your sources talk directly to McKubre et al for a second opinion? I'm 
> sure they'd still keep you on the payroll even if they came to believe 
> him more than you. >>
>
>Hay Gene, this sounds like something from the "Daily Worker" not our voice of
>free enterprise, the entrepreneur Gene Malove.

Never!  I am card-carrying Libertarian as of 1998. There is nothing in 
Libertarian philosophy that is not happy with philanthropy. Don't confuse 
private philanthropy with government theft and centrally planned income 
redistribution.
>
>I don't know who Scott's backer is, but pattern recognition says that it is
>probably a very successful business person looking for a major new investment
>opportunity. 

I suspect one of the backers is in Europe -- I think possibly the Prince 
of Lichtenstein (among others), who has an interest in many "far out" 
things. This is in the rumor mill, at least.  Bless him!

> I'm sure he is not an altruist looking to set up a 
>technological
>- socialist utopia. 


Maybe not a Socialist "utopia: -- maybe just  a Utopia.

> But even charitable institutions like the David Packard
>Foundation hire someone to evaluate candidates before they write a check.

Sure.
>
>Investment is not the same as welfare.  We have government welfare 
>programs to
>take care of the starving people and government giveaway programs to take 
>care
>of hot fusion and other techno-political big deals. 

Yep.

> These two examples
>suggest that if you want to ruin a segment of society, just GIVE it lots of
>money.

That's what the DOE is all about -- ruining things, which is why I favor 
abolishing the DOE and putting some of its top officials on trial for 
political corruption an civil malfeasance -- starting with former DOE 
crook Dr. William Happer, formerly of Princeton (he's back in the den of 
iniquity, I think). He was one of the DOE ERAB panelists, who said:  
"Just by looking at Fleischmann and Pons on TV you could tell they were 
incompetent boobs." -- p.305 of Taubes' book. Nice unbiased panel, eh?
>
>Scott's backer probably doesn't have time, qualifications or patience to do
>all of the work that he has contracted with EarthTech for.  If he tried to do
>the work that he delegates to Scott and others, no one would be doing his job
>and he wouldn't be a successful business man.  

This EarthTech support is old money most likely, not new money.

>He has selected someone in 
>whom
>he has confidence to do the investigation and identify realistic investment
>candidates for him.  I think that probably even Mr. Dean and Mr. Witter hire
>security analysts to check out potential investments for them.

Yes, too bad they don't call us about cold fusion -- maybe they will some 
day :)
>
>I'm guessing that the backer has sufficient confidence in Scott that when
>Scott says "This one looks promising.",  he will put his own time, judgment
>and, if justified, money into the next step. 

Yes, that appears to be the plan. We have that plan too, but with 
probably less wealthy backers.

> I would also guess that when
>Scott sees something exciting, his backer will want to consult other experts,
>but this is in no way a threat to Scott's contractual relationship unless he
>screws up badly.  If Scott is any good, his backer will continue to need 
>him. 
>
>Whoever the backer is, I think he is pretty darned smart to have engaged 
>Scott
>and invested his money and confidence in Scott's judgment.  Scott's
>assignments, whether in his contract or not, obviously include saving his
>backer's time and protecting his privacy while finding the investment
>opportunity.

Yes.
>
>I might be wrong about Scott's backer, but I'm not wrong about the 
>destructive
>power of FREE MONEY.

FREE money is not necessarily destructive at all -- IF it comes from 
private sources that freely give the money for good causes!

Our backers are highly successful private individuals with technical 
backgrounds. They know business and they know science. In part they have 
invested, in part they have simply given. Either way, they have gotten 
their money's worth.
>
>Bob Briggs, Engineer, Capitalist

Gene Mallove, Engineer and Capitalist
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 07:27:36 1999
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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> What is vortexC?

That's the "torsion physics" list announced earlier.  See below.

VortexC-L is a very strange mixture: a discussion of mathematical physics,
plus discussions of so-called Pyramid Power, telepathy, time travel, human
auras, levitation, etc.  (Oh, with o/u, antigravity, and FTL communication
thrown in to spice up the mixture!)  :)

Remember the book "Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain"?  Torsion
physics is the Russian field of science which grew as a result of the
things mentioned in that book.  It apparantly had very major funding in
the past, but at present the Russians are willing to give up on secrecy in
order to attract publicity and possibly outside funding.  Torsion page:

   http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/tors/

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:25:08 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: new list: torsion research

I'm going to turn on the vortex C annex for a semi-permanent Torsion
Physics discussion listserver.

To everyone:
If you are interested in replication of the Vacuum Spin Physics phenomena
being reported by researchers in Russia, then subscribe yourself to
vortexC: 

   Send a blank message to vortexC-L-request eskimo.com
   Place the word "subscribe" in the subject line of that message.

You will receive a welcome/instructions message in response.  Thereafter,
send your messages to the whole group by sending them to
vortexC-L eskimo.com

One Russian research group is currently subscribed.  The topic is the use
of tungsten wire as a torsion-field detector.  (Not so easy, since an
intense torsion field only causes 1PPM resistance changes.)

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 07:36:24 1999
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At 06:55 2/18/99 -0500, Mitchell wrote:

<snip>
> As it stands today, ZPE(vac) - or as now defined ZPForce(vac) -
>is too small....

ZPE stands for Zero-Point Energy.  
ZPF stands for Zero-Point Field.

Please be patient, Mitchell. We have not succeeded in extracting energy
from the ZPF yet.  Is it OK with you if we keep trying?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 08:14:23 1999
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In a message dated 2/18/99 5:10:50 AM Pacific Standard Time, editor infinite-
energy.com writes:

<< Never!  I am card-carrying Libertarian as of 1998.  There is nothing in 
 Libertarian philosophy that is not happy with philanthropy. Don't confuse 
 private philanthropy with government theft and centrally planned income 
 redistribution. >>
 
Great Gene, It's good to connect with another Libertarian.  I already knew
that we had Engineer and Capitalist in common.  Next time we get together we
should reserve some time to talk philosophy and poly-scy after we get caught
up on the C.F.

The DOD problem and the specific individual you mention are only a spot view
of the whole government distortion of economics and disregard for truth.  One
always tends to think his own view is unique, but the problem is the same in
all departments, at all levels.  It is the natural result of lack of
accountability.   

The libertarian logic leads to the conclusion that there is no such thing as
an altruist.  

Thanks for the response Gene.  I'm glad we seem to agree on most of the
basics.

Bob






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Scott Little asked De Ninno:

	Can you tell me what was the total input power when you observed 
	100-200 millwatts of excess heat?  In other words, I would like to 
	know the signal/background ratio for these observations.

For the thin-film experiments (Fig. 2) I believe total power was on the
order of one or two watts. I could be wrong. Water flow calorimetry was
used (see reference 3). The maximum error is 25 mW. Even without knowing
the details, you can see from this graph that there was no error in
calorimetry. This is clear because the graph shows two independent
parameters, excess heat and resistivity, measured repeatedly in many
experiments. The data points are not scattered at random, as they would
have to be if excess heat was an artifact. Cathode resistance cannot affect
the performance of the thermocouples and nanovoltmeters, or vice versa.
Cathode resistance cannot affect the pumps, flow meters or other components
either. At high loading there were many examples of zero excess heat, which
proves that one or more other parameters control heat. However, there is no
excess heat at low loading, where R/R0<1.06.

This graph illustrates the importance of measuring independent parameters,
and measuring them repeatedly in many test runs. This is similar to the
correlation of excess heat and helium reported by Miles. One excess heat
measurement might be incorrect, and one "excess" helium measurement will be
close to the noise and might easily be incorrect. (I call it "excess"
helium because it is above background levels that leak into the cell.)
However, excess heat cannot affect helium or vice versa, so when they are
both measured repeatedly, and they correlate time after time, it becomes
statistically impossible for them to be artifacts. There is no way the
thermocouples at China Lake can affect the helium detector at Rockwell and
two other labs. The correlation between helium and excess heat was
absolute: one always accompanied the other, and when there was no heat
there was no helium. The correlation of high loading and excess heat shown
by De Ninno is not absolute. As I said, there are many points on the right
of the graph showing high loading but no excess heat. However, the heat
measurements cannot be random, as they would be if they were caused by
instrument error.

In the Miles experiments and many others, the correlation of materials and
excess heat also proves that no calorimetry error occurred. Dieter Britz
repeatedly and mistakenly claimed that Miles' results might be "random,"
even after I pointed out to him that the distribution is far from random.
Is inconceivable that the choice of metal alloy inside the cell would
change the success rate of the experiment from 0 out of 32 to 4 out of 4.
Frankly, I cannot understand why trained scientists make such elementary
errors.

I loath ASCII art, but perhaps it would be easier to understand what I'm
saying if I illustrate this with a crude copy of De Ninno's Fig. 2 graph.
It looks sorta like this, only with lots more data points:

             0.30
Y axis                                ***
Excess Heat  0.20                     ***
(Watts)                               ***
             0.10                   * ***
                                *   * *** *
             0.00   *   **   ****   * * * *
                1.00  1.02  1.04  1.06  1.08

                     R/R0 resistivity

Errors or artifacts would produce data something like this, instead:

             0.30
Y axis                *         *      *
Excess Heat  0.20        *            * *
(Watts)                  *
             0.10  **   **          * *
                                *   *     *
             0.00   *   **   *  *   *     *
                1.00  1.02  1.04  1.06  1.08

                     R/R0 resistivity

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 08:40:32 1999
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Correction: that was the Fig. 3 graph, p. 111, followed by an imaginary
version of the same graph that you would see if the excess heat was caused
by random errors or noise.

I said that cathode resistivity cannot affect thermocouples, pumps or
flowmeters. I should add that there is no mechanism whereby some other,
external influence or source of noise would affect both resistivity and
thermocouples to produce this pattern of results.

It seems to me that if a skeptic disagrees, it is up to him to prove his
case, because that idea violates basic principles, statistics and
mensuration techniques at the foundations of experimental science. If Scott
Little suspects an error, he should explain how it could produce this
distribution of results. It seems impossible to me. The only reasonable
explanation for this data is that high loading often produces genuine
excess heat. That agrees with the findings from Pons and Fleischmann,
McKubre, Storms, Miles and many others.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 09:06:36 1999
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
Message-ID: <60c82d63.36cc47e6 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:03:34 EST
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In a message dated 2/18/99 8:13:34 AM Pacific Standard Time, BriggsRO aol.com
writes:

<< The DOD problem and the specific individual you mention are only a spot
view
 of the whole government distortion of economics and disregard for truth.  One
 always tends to think his own view is unique, but the problem is the same in
 all departments, at all levels.  It is the natural result of lack of
 accountability.   
  >>


Gene,

An afterthought.  Have you read "Why Government Doesn't Work" by Harry Browne,
(a Libertarian)?  It carefully examines what we have been saying about
problems with government projects.  If you want to read it and can't find it,
let me know and I'll lend it to you.

Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 09:08:18 1999
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Message-Id: <199902181702.MAA05304 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Hydrogen Beer
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 12:06:09 -0000
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From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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All,

FYI,

Gene Mallove
*********

From: Kelam Mari-Ann <Mari-Ann.Kelam riigikogu.ee>
Subject: Hydrogen beer!
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:44:08 +0200


TOKYO (AP) The recent craze for hydrogen beer is at the heart of a three 
Way
lawsuit between unemployed stockbroker Toshira Otoma, the Tike-Take 
Karaoke
bar and the Asaka Beer Corporation. Mr Otoma is suing the bar and the
brewery for selling toxic substances and is claiming damages for grievous
bodily harm leading to the loss of his job. The bar is counter suing for
defamation and loss of customers.

The Asaka Beer corporation brews "Suiso" brand beer, where the carbon
dioxide normally used to add fizz has been replaced by the more
environmentally friendly hydrogen gas. A side effect of this has made the
beer extremely popular at karaoke sing-along bars and discotheques.

Hydrogen, like helium, is a gas lighter than air. Because hydrogen 
molecules
are lighter than air, sound waves are transmitted more rapidly; 
individuals
whose lungs are filled with the nontoxic gas can speak with an
uncharacteristically high voice. Exploiting this quirk of physics, chic
urbanites can now sing soprano parts on karaoke sing-along machines after
consuming a big gulp of Suiso beer. The flammable nature of hydrogen has
also become another selling point, Even though Asaka has not acknowledged
that this was a deliberate marketing ploy.

It has inspired a new fashion of blowing flames from one's mouth using a
cigarette as an ignition source. Many new karaoke videos feature singers
shooting blue flames in slow motion, while flame contests take place in 
pubs
everywhere.

"Mr Otoma has no-one to blame but himself. If he had not become drunk and
disorderly, none of this would have happened. Our security guards undergo
the most careful screening and training before they are allowed to deal 
with
customers" said Mr Takashi Nomura, Manager of the Tike-Take bar.

"Mr Otoma drank fifteen bottles of hydrogen beer in order to maximise the
size of the flames he could belch during the contest. He catapulted balls 
of
fire across the room that Godzilla would be proud of, but this was not
enough to win him first prize since the judgment is made on the quality of
the flames and that of the singing, and after fifteen bottles of lager he
was badly out of tune."

"He took exception to the result and hurled blue fireballs at the judge,
singeing the front of Mrs Mifune's hair, entirely removing her eyebrows 
and
lashes, and ruining the clothes of two nearby customers. None of these
people have returned to my bar. When our security staff approached he 
turned
his attentions to them, making it almost impossible to approach him. Our
head bouncer had no choice but to hurl himself at Mr Otoma's knees, 
knocking
his legs from under him."

"The laws of physics are not to be disobeyed, and the force that propelled
Mr Otoma's legs backwards also pivoted around his centre of gravity and
moved his upper body forward with equal velocity. It was his own fault he
had his mouth open for the next belch,his own fault he held a lighted
cigarette in front of it and it is own fault he swallowed that cigarette."

"The Tike-Take bar takes no responsibility for the subsequent internal
combustion, rupture of his stomach lining, nor the third degree burns to 
his
oesophagus, larynx and sinuses as the exploding gases forced their way out
of his body. His consequential muteness and loss of employment are his own
fault."

Mr Otoma was unavailable for comment.




----------------- End Forwarded Message -----------------

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 09:20:45 1999
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:13:56 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Is ZPE(v) is too small to be important?
Resent-Message-ID: <"zfm0a1.0.aP3.Wj4ps" mx2>
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>At 11:51 AM 2/17/99 -0600, Scott Little wrote:
>>At 10:11 2/17/99 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>>
>>>   Why is such a confirmation (not?) applicable to Scott's
>>>      calorimetry?
>>
>>As Jed surmised, the manifestation of the ZPF measured by these recent
>>experiments is a small force between two conductive objects...the Casimir
>>force.
>>
>>>   Did you calculate how much energy Lamoreaux obtained
>>> (or energy density, or power density?)
>>
>>Lamoreaux and Mohideen didn't obtain energy to speak of...they measured
>>forces.
>
>   Then why call is Zero Point Energy?   ;-)X
>
>If they did not obtain an energy, and if you are now
>making ZPE redefined as ZPF, then consider that energy
>is force * distance, and tell me if you agree that the
>most available over a coffee cup volume is ~femtowatt,
>or less?

***{Didn't Scott attribute the remark about boiling the oceans to Nobel
Laureate John Wheeler? Wheeler is a crack mathematician. Surely he
justified his comment with a calculation. What about it, Scott? What is the
rationale that Wheeler used? Indeed, a reference would be nice. --Mitchell
Jones}***

[snip]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 09:41:23 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: A card carrying pragmatist
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Gene Mallove and Bob Briggs come out of the closet and admit:

	I am a card-carrying Libertarian as of 1998.

Don't worry, we will not tell your friends.

I myself have been a card-carrying pragmatist since I first wore pants and
pockets. And a historian, and contrarian. I would like to point out to you
purists that in England and the United States the government has played a
leading role in science and technology since 1600. Most major technology
has benefited from direct government subsidies, support, research and
forceful participation. Well-known examples include: shipbuilding,
navigation, canals, telegraphs, railroads, electricity, steam engines,
steel, precision instruments, land grant colleges, antiseptics, steam
ships, telephones, medical standards, food and drug purity, automobiles,
aviation, industrial standards, antibiotics, highways, computers,
transistors, automotive safety, software, satellite communication and
reconnaissance, and the Internet. The government promoted many of these
technologies, including steam ships and effective drugs, despite furious
opposition from private industry. It *invented* computers, software
(especially COBOL), and the Internet.

Large corporations and legal monopolies like AT&T have also played a
leading role in these developments. They are, in many ways, as bureaucratic
and anticompetitive as government itself. At the turn of the 20th-century,
large corporations effectively ran many states, selecting the governor,
Senator and many local officials. (Senators were appointed, not elected,
until the 17th amendment in 1913.) Perhaps we would live in a better world
if the government and these huge bureaucratic institutions were not
constantly interfering with and directing the development of technology. It
is impossible to know. What we can say is that things have worked
spectacularly well over the last four hundred years, and big government has
played a leading role. Improvements in automotive safety, for example, have
saved roughly a million lives and prevented several million severe
injuries. Given the cavalier attitude of the automobile manufacturers in
1960, I do not think this change could have come about without government
pressure and legislation. Other examples of government action may be
questionable, but things like the pure food and drug act and automotive
safety laws have been the direct and forceful expression of the public
will. The problem with the DOE may be that it is not active enough. It is
not doing what government did 50 and 150 years ago.

Perhaps it is time to throw away 400 years of tradition and do away with
government participation in the economy. Perhaps, but I doubt it! I am
conservative. I believe in doing what works and what has always worked.
Complexity, large-scale programs, and standardization are more important
than ever, and these are areas in which the government has played a leading
role. AT&T's monopoly was broken up thanks to the government, MCI and Judge
Green. I expect Microsoft will follow, but many powerful corporations
remain. Government is the only countervailing force that prevents these
powerful corporations from dominating our lives and institutions the way
they did in 1900.

- Jed

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At 09:34 AM 2/18/99 -0600, Scott Little wrote:
>At 06:55 2/18/99 -0500, Mitchell wrote:
><snip>
>> As it stands today, ZPE(vac) - or as now defined ZPForce(vac) -
>>is too small....
>
>ZPE stands for Zero-Point Energy.  
>ZPF stands for Zero-Point Field.
>
>Please be patient, Mitchell. We have not succeeded in extracting energy
>from the ZPF yet. 


  First, they are different, and it was you, Scott, who used
the word 'force', despite that you zipped it out above.

  Here is what you posted:
   At 11:51 AM 2/17/99 -0600, Scott Little wrote:
   >At 10:11 2/17/99 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
   >>   Why is such a confirmation (not?) applicable to Scott's
   >>      calorimetry?  
   >Scott:
   >As Jed surmised, the manifestation of the ZPF measured by these recent
   >experiments is a small force between two conductive objects...the Casimir
   >force."

 ================================================

  Second, furthermore, a ZPForce would not be the same, 
necessarily, as a field.

 For example consider the magnetic field intensity, the magnetic
flux density, the coenergy, and then the magnetic force.
  Hope that helps.  See Melcher (MIT Press).


 ================================================


>    Is it OK with you if we keep trying?

  But of course.
  More power on your search. It was only suggested
that you reinvestigate your KS research at a more expected
power level (maybe others, too  ;-)   and that you consider
applying your considerable expertise to ZPE systems.
Those suggestions answer your most curious sentence above.   

  Have a good day.

    Mitchell Swartz


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At 12:13 2/18/99 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>***{Didn't Scott attribute the remark about boiling the oceans to Nobel
>Laureate John Wheeler? Wheeler is a crack mathematician. Surely he
>justified his comment with a calculation. What about it, Scott? What is the
>rationale that Wheeler used? Indeed, a reference would be nice.

The rationale comes directly from quantum mechanics.  Plank, Einstein,
Dirac, Bohr all contributed to the development of the concept.  Peter
Milloni gives a concise derivation of the spectral energy density of the
zero-point field in his book "The Quantum Vacuum" on page 49.

I can't find Wheeler's quote about the oceans but here is an equally
astounding one from his big book, "Gravitation" p 1202:

"The enormous factor from nuclear densities (10^14 g/cc) to the density of
field fluctuation energy in the vacuum (10^94 g/cc), argues that elementary
particles represent a percentage-wise almost completely negligible change
in the locally violent conditions that characterize the vacuum.  A particle
(10^14 g/cc) means as little to the physics of the vacuum (10^94 g/cc) as a
cloud (10^-6 g/cc) means to the physics of the sky (10^-3 g/cc).  In other
words, elementary particles do not form a really basic starting point for
the description of nature.  Instead, they represent a first-order
correction to vacuum physics."



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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You caught me lurking.

Sorry, I really am busy and have little time to think or study, I'm doing
14 hour days.

In Britain (and the rest of the world) we are having trouble with GM
foods, Monsanto, Lord Sainsbury and the like. What say you?? Do you want
another thalidomide, BSE and so on.

Be pragmatic, both state and free enterprise. It just that things go a
little too far one way or the other and you need to be a rebel for a bit.

I'm sorry if I can't keep this thread up. My job is a means to an end and
some days it bores me sh.tless. I know its for the best because money
without responsibility ruins. I still say that when realistic devices come
forth, its going to be out of somebody's garage or shed.

Have a nice time and keep it simple and fundamental. The lesson of physics
is: even the most complicated things can be understood simply.

I spend my days convincing dickhead programmers and managers that simple
is bueatiful - and it works.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 11:00:11 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: De Ninno's calorimetry
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At 11:37 2/18/99 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>If Scott
>Little suspects an error, he should explain how it could produce this
>distribution of results. It seems impossible to me. The only reasonable
>explanation for this data is that high loading often produces genuine
>excess heat.

I don't really "suspect" an error...but the possibility exists nonetheless.  
Here is one example:

Suppose the high R/R0 values observed from certain thin-film cathodes were
not due only to extra high loading but also to physical damage to the film
(cracks, areas flaking off, etc.).  This would also affect the electrolytic
properties of the cell, possibly causing the voltage to increase abnormally
for those cathodes.  If the voltage reached the "ceiling" of the data
acquisition system, then the input power would be underestimated and it
would look like excess heat...only on those samples.

You may think the above scenario extremely unlikely.  I've seen it happen
here and at other labs.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 11:20:46 1999
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Subject: Re: A card carrying pragmatist
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 14:19:39 -0000
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Jed wrote,

>Gene Mallove and Bob Briggs come out of the closet and admit:
>
>	I am a card-carrying Libertarian as of 1998.
>
>Don't worry, we will not tell your friends.

Please DO tell all our friends -- nothing to be ashamed of!  On ther 
other hand, those who think that Bill Clinton is God's gift to the US and 
would vote for him again if they could may have a problem  :)
>
>I myself have been a card-carrying pragmatist since I first wore pants and
>pockets. And a historian, and contrarian. I would like to point out to you
>purists that in England and the United States the government has played a
>leading role in science and technology since 1600. 

Of course it has. That cannot be doubted.

>Most major technology
>has benefited from direct government subsidies, support, research and
>forceful participation. 

BUT -- and this is the important point  for government worshipping 
Democrats and Republicans: What would a world be like IF the resources of 
government now redistributed into such lovely organizations as DOE were 
available for non-DOE activities? This is the most important question -- 
would the world become better with LESS intrusive and often STUPID and 
NASTY government and its replacement with private organizations to take  
over what are now some key functions. (The main fucntions that *perhaps* 
should always reside within government are national defense and the 
justice system.)

>Well-known examples include: shipbuilding,
>navigation, canals, telegraphs, railroads, electricity, steam engines,
>steel, precision instruments, land grant colleges, antiseptics, steam
>ships, telephones, medical standards, food and drug purity, automobiles,
>aviation, industrial standards, antibiotics, highways, computers,
>transistors, automotive safety, software, satellite communication and
>reconnaissance, and the Internet. The government promoted many of these
>technologies, including steam ships and effective drugs, despite furious
>opposition from private industry. It *invented* computers, software
>(especially COBOL), and the Internet.

It does not suffice to claim that government has influenced and aided all 
of these things.  This is a falacious argument. It requires thought on 
the alternate society that could emerge if this archaic system of 
know-it-all decision makers were replaced with more market forces.  
Example: Just as there is a private UL approval company for making sure 
that standard electrical appliances are safe -- I would not buy anything 
electrical if there were no UL on it --there could emerge a variety of 
private mechanisms competing for being the most respected certification 
house. Companies would PAY for the best approval stamp, as they do now.  
What we have now is a TYRRANY -- in which government bureaucrats, for 
example, have final say on all medicines and health treatments.  This is 
this spitting image of DOE's squashing of cold fusion and even many 
non-tokamak hot fusion methods over the years -- such as aneutronic hot 
fusion.  This is  outrageous.  

Example -- just one of many that occur every day: Last evening  there was 
an excellent CNN piece on a very educated couple in Oregon who were 
trying to win back their right to have their infant breast-fed. The wife 
has HIV. The couple has studied in great detail the controversy over what 
exactly does cause AIDS, and I remind you that there are Nobel laureates 
(plural!) who do NOT think that HIV is the sole agent, if indeed the 
agent at all.  They are trying to make their own considered judgement 
about this and do what they think is right. They feel there might 
actually be some beneficial aspect to mother's milk's anitbodies or 
whatever in this particular case. The government wants to FORCE these 
people to get their child onto AZT, which other physicians and Nobel 
laureates think is unwise. 

If you think this is an extreme example, think again! The entire, corrupt 
Federal bureaucracy is virtually at war asgainst all forms of alternative 
medicine.   The NIH center was only set up after a raging battle -- now 
it is routinely the focus of snide remarks and attacks in Science and 
Nature.  How many people will die in the face of this? Weigh those people 
against those who are alive because of appropriate actions taken by local 
and Federal health agencies. Above all, before glorifying Government  as 
the only way: Ask yourself whether ther might be private means to 
accomplish a much better world of health and clean energy than we have 
today. All wisdom does NOT reside in centralized government and very 
often government gets off on the wrong track, as it has with tokamak hot 
fusion, and never wants to let go.
>
>Large corporations and legal monopolies like AT&T have also played a
>leading role in these developments. They are, in many ways, as bureaucratic
>and anticompetitive as government itself. 

Yes, they are.

>At the turn of the 20th-century,
>large corporations effectively ran many states, selecting the governor,
>Senator and many local officials. (Senators were appointed, not elected,
>until the 17th amendment in 1913.) Perhaps we would live in a better world
>if the government and these huge bureaucratic institutions were not
>constantly interfering with and directing the development of technology.

A good case can be made for that.

> It
>is impossible to know. 

Yes, we cannot know unless we experiment. But just compare the efficiency 
and quality of Fedex with the inept USPS. Why can't we get some 
competition into first class mail delivery!!???  I've had a recent run in 
with a local idiot desk supervisor's new illegal and irrational policy -- 
that would make Huizenga's behavior look good! Just because few of his 
clerks have not been putting the required green customs forms on air mail 
abroad over 16 oz, he is now penalizing ALL of us by mandating 
--irrationally -- that ALL large envelope size pieces must have the 
customs forms. Just to protect his fat  bureaucrat ass we have to do a 
lot of extra work in writing out labels and such! I'm determined to nail 
this bastard Big Time on this issue and get the policy changed, but I may 
not succeed. A lot is at stake -- we mail to 37 foriegn countries!  As we 
say, he has the gun. None of the clerks at the desk support this policy, 
they say to me -- they have to do more work, but still the idiot prevails.

>What we can say is that things have worked
>spectacularly well over the last four hundred years, and big government has
>played a leading role. 

It seems to me that two bycicle mechanics in 1903 played a larger role -- 
the government, you may recall, was too stupid to wake up for 5 years. Or 
how about the private Guggenhiem support of Robert Goddard's rocketry in 
1926 and into the 1930s that led to the whole space age. Without 
Guggenheim-Goddard, perhaps neither the Russians, the Germans, nor the 
American governments would have gotten anywhere. The US scientific 
establsihsment and the New York Times were claiming that Goddard was 
nuts! And now we have very serious issues about whether NASA will ever be 
able to develop cost effective means for getting us into low earth orbit. 
A good case can be made that they have done much to slow alternatives 
down.  I bet private companies will pull it off.

Example: Bert Werjefelt has a device (EVAS) that will virtually assure 
the safety of in-cockpit  smoke emergenices that have killed many people 
becuase the pilots cannot see. It would only cost $20K or so to equip 
each pilot position with one inflatable EVAS solution. The FAA -- in 
cahoots with the corporate big wigs who are pinching pennies -- refuse to 
mandate this essential safety item! Think of how much better it would be 
if several private certification agenices fought over each other to 
assure that such a cost-effective device was adopted by all private 
airlines! As it is now, the airlines do "juts enough" to get by, not what 
they could be doing under true competition.

>Improvements in automotive safety, for example, have
>saved roughly a million lives and prevented several million severe
>injuries. Given the cavalier attitude of the automobile manufacturers in
>1960, I do not think this change could have come about without government
>pressure and legislation. 

Maybe not. Maybe private agencies -- if they were thought of as the norm 
of regulation and certification would have been able to do auto safety 
improvement sooner.

>Other examples of government action may be
>questionable, but things like the pure food and drug act and automotive
>safety laws have been the direct and forceful expression of the public
>will.

This means nothing. The public does not always know what is wise, as 
recent events have shown   :)

> The problem with the DOE may be that it is not active enough. It is
>not doing what government did 50 and 150 years ago.

Hah! Have you learned nothing these past 10 years.? Just what we need, a 
more powerful DOE!!!  The sooner DOE is out of business the better.
>
>Perhaps it is time to throw away 400 years of tradition and do away with
>government participation in the economy. 

It might be. Think about it.  Maybe it's time to evolve.....

>Perhaps, but I doubt it! I am
>conservative.

That is known today as "liberal," thank you.

> I believe in doing what works and what has always worked.

How about trying stuff that might work better. What's wrong with 
experimentation?

>Complexity, large-scale programs, and standardization are more important
>than ever, and these are areas in which the government has played a leading
>role.

This could change if private acitivities were thought of  as the first 
choice rather than the last resort.

> AT&T's monopoly was broken up thanks to the government, MCI and Judge
>Green. I expect Microsoft will follow, but many powerful corporations
>remain. Government is the only countervailing force that prevents these
>powerful corporations from dominating our lives and institutions the way
>they did in 1900.

There is a major issue on powerful coporations, I will agree. The justice 
system might be needed to deal with that.  But in my view the biggest 
issue is the corruption and increasing power of central government, not 
corporations.


Gene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 11:33:30 1999
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Subject: Re: Is ZPE(v) is too small to be important?
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At 11:57 2/18/99 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>  First, they are different, and it was you, Scott, who used
>the word 'force', despite that you zipped it out above.

There is no confusion here about forces, fields and energy.  The Casimir
experiments measure a force exerted by the zero-point field (ZPF) on
closely-spaced conductive plates. The force arises because certain modes
are cancelled in the space between the plates by the boundary conditions
imposed by the plates.

If you let that force act thru a distance you will have extracted
zero-point energy (ZPE) from the ZPF....femtojoules in a typical
experiment.  The reason it's so small is that the conductive plates only
affect a miniscule fraction of the ZPF modes (i.e. radio-UV). The bulk of
the ZPF (ultra high frequencies unattainable in the laboratory) is
unaffected in the space between the plates.

Even if the Casimir force experiment could be scaled up enormously, the
effect cannot be used to tap ZPE from the ZPF continuously because the
interaction between the ZPF and the plates is conservative.

We seek a non-conservative interaction with the ZPF.  We are aware that
such may turn out to be fundamentally impossible...a violation of the
Second Law of Thermodynamics, for example.  There is much else to be
learned from study of the ZPF...the true nature of inertia, for example.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 11:36:40 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: De Ninno's calorimetry
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Scott Little suggests a hypothesis that would cause a correlation between
apparent excess power and high resistivity:

	Suppose the high R/R0 values observed from certain thin-film
	cathodes were not due only to extra high loading but also to
	physical damage to the film (cracks, areas flaking off, etc.). 
	This would also affect the electrolytic properties of the cell,
	possibly causing the voltage to increase abnormally for those
	cathodes.  If the voltage reached the "ceiling" of the data
	acquisition system, then the input power would be underestimated
	and it would look like excess heat...only on those samples.

	You may think the above scenario extremely unlikely.  I've seen
	it happen here and at other labs.

If you "saw" it happen that means it did not fool you. Did it fool anyone
at of these other labs? You or the instruments recorded the fact that
ceiling was exceeded, and spikes were cut off flat at the top, like a pen
recorder that has hit a stop and draws a flat line at the edge of the
paper. This is a common problem. It has been happening with analog and
digital instruments forever. Data collection programs are supposed to issue
warnings when things like this happen, although I suppose some do not . . .
 My point is that you would recognize this, and I would, and any
experienced person would, so why do you suppose De Nino et al. would not?
Do you think the McKubre also missed seeing this when he tested samples
from De Ninno? Everyone who works with thin film knows that it easily
damaged, as paper #1 says. Researchers are all too familiar with the
signature of a damaged thin film cathode.

In other words, this problem would produce a peculiar and instantly
recognizable distribution of points, with chopped off, flat peaks and a
great deal of noise. The data would speak for itself, just as it does in my
imaginary version of Fig. 3, in which there is no correlation between heat
and loading.

It is a stretch, you must admit. It is also the sort of issue you should
have resolved in two minutes during ICCF7, by asking De Ninno. (That's when
I learned about the power level and other details. Alas, I did not write it
down, and I should not trust my memory.) Go ahead and ask now though! I'd
like to see a sample of the voltage. You should expect some perturbations
during excess heat events.

There are three practical problems with this scenario:

1. Loading measured by other methods also correlates with excess heat.
Perhaps not in De Ninno's paper, but elsewhere it does.

2. The same correlation betwen loading and heat is seen with bulk
palladium, where cracks, flaking and damage will have less impact on
voltage, because many conductive paths around the damage remain.

3. Damaged thin film never produces excess heat, as Miley and many others
have pointed out.

You have to take into account the rest of the literature. De Ninno's
results make little sense out of context, and they do not prove much.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 12:25:20 1999
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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In a message dated 2/18/99 10:59:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, little eden.com
writes:

<<  In other
 words, elementary particles do not form a really basic starting point for
 the description of nature.  Instead, they represent a first-order
 correction to vacuum physics." >>

Gee Scott,

This will take some getting used to.

Bob

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In a message dated 2/18/99 11:20:18 AM Pacific Standard Time, editor infinite-
energy.com writes:

<< Well-known examples include: shipbuilding,
 >navigation, canals, telegraphs, railroads, electricity, steam engines,
 >steel, precision instruments, land grant colleges, antiseptics, steam
 >ships, telephones, medical standards, food and drug purity, automobiles,
 >aviation, industrial standards, antibiotics, highways, computers,
 >transistors, automotive safety, software, satellite communication and
 >reconnaissance, and the Internet.  The government promoted many of these
 >technologies, including steam ships and effective drugs, despite furious
 >opposition from private industry. It *invented* computers, software
 >(especially COBOL), and the Internet.
  >>

Jed reads history from different books than I do.

Gene,

Your observations are right on.  As far as Government being responsible for
all that stuff, in many instances government got in after the creativity had
taken place and made a massive big-deal, spent lots of money and put drag on
the whole process.  

Perhaps this was not always true.  I recall that the invention of a useful
navigation chronometer was a private venture but it was inspired by a Crown
offer of a substantial prize to anyone who could meet the specification.  I
also recall that when the device was delivered the government tried to stiff
the inventor.  

I also recall that before WW II when the army wanted a new airplane they would
publish a specification and anyone who wanted could build a prototype and
compete.  On an appointed day they would have a big fly-off and the winner got
a contract to produce the plane.  This worked well.  Now, they make an
impossible mess by publishing an incomplete specification, picking a
contractor on the basis of who can tell the biggest lie, then they
micromanaging every technical decision.  The contractors don't mind because
they are being paid on a cost plus contract so they are rewarded for spending
money, not for producing a result.  In fact, the longer they can postpone a
result, the greater the profit.  

I agree with Gene Malove, and Harry Browne.  Government doesn't work.

Bob Briggs
Engineer, Capitalist, Libertarian, Pragmatist

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 15:06:13 1999
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Catalytic Converter CF/Hydrino Generator?
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:04:45 -0700
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To: Vortex

A catalytic converter off about any auto should have enough Pd to act as a
"burner for an H2/O2
mix with excess H2 (or D2).

Once started the temperature should get up as high as required. The H2O can
be condensed and excess H2/D2 (and Hydrinos?) can be recycled.

Potassium can be added to the catalyst "bed" by running a KOH or K2CO3 water
solution through the bed. The last time I used the converters you could get
used ones at a junkyard for less than $10.00.

The beads should clean up nicely with H2/O2
or CH4/O2, but watch for lead vapors in the older converters.

Regards,    Frederick

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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Is ZPE(v) is too small to be important?
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At 15:19 2/18/99 EST, BriggsRO aol.com wrote:

><<  In other
> words, elementary particles do not form a really basic starting point for
> the description of nature.  Instead, they represent a first-order
> correction to vacuum physics." >>
>
>Gee Scott,
>
>This will take some getting used to.

Indeed!  It is no wonder that most scientists disregard the zero-point
field.  The present "laws" of physics evolved mostly without consideration
of it.

A good example of the above is embodied in Puthoff's hypothesis that the
ZPF is responsible for keeping electrons from falling into the nucleus
("Ground State of hydrogen as a zero-point-fluctuation-determined state",
Phys Rev D Vol 35 No 10 1987 p. 3266).  Quantum mechanics just says, "They
don't"...and does not explain why.   Puthoff presents a highly plausible
argument for a stable equilibrium between the power radiated by the
accelerating electron (in motion around the nucleus) and the power absorbed
by a charged harmonic oscillator in an EM field (the electron in motion in
the ZPF).

Without the zero-point field, atoms would collapse!



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: De Ninno's calorimetry
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References: <3.0.1.32.19990218125858.009b037c mail.eden.com>
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At 14:33 2/18/99 -0500, Jed wrote:

>It is a stretch, you must admit.

Yes I do...it was just a quick example.  If there is a systematic error
behind De Ninno's positive excess heat results, I expect it to be
substantially more complex and oblique.

I hope she responds to my queries. It would be good to have contact with a
lab that is presently observing the excess heat effect on a semi-regular
basis.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Is ZPE(v) is too small to be important?
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At 05:48 PM 2/18/99 -0600, Scott Little wrote:
>At 15:19 2/18/99 EST, BriggsRO aol.com wrote:
>
>><<  In other
>> words, elementary particles do not form a really basic starting point for
>> the description of nature.  Instead, they represent a first-order
>> correction to vacuum physics." >>
>>
>>Gee Scott,
>>
>>This will take some getting used to.
>
>Indeed!  It is no wonder that most scientists disregard the zero-point
>field.  The present "laws" of physics evolved mostly without consideration
>of it.

   The complicated physics of adhesion (with the clear
differentiating of bond energies from forces; cf. E. Orowon)
is rarely understood,  perhaps calling into question the 
single cited experiment, relied upon in ZPE.

   ========================================================

>A good example of the above is embodied in Puthoff's hypothesis that the
>ZPF is responsible for keeping electrons from falling into the nucleus
>("Ground State of hydrogen as a zero-point-fluctuation-determined state",
>Phys Rev D Vol 35 No 10 1987 p. 3266).  Quantum mechanics just says, "They
>don't"...and does not explain why.   Puthoff presents a highly plausible
>argument for a stable equilibrium between the power radiated by the
>accelerating electron (in motion around the nucleus) and the power absorbed
>by a charged harmonic oscillator in an EM field (the electron in motion in
>the ZPF).
>
>Without the zero-point field, atoms would collapse!


   Two problems.   First, the hypothesis assumes Maxwell demons
on every electron, all exactly and correctly balancing out the 
surrounding ZPE/ZPF contributed on a spherical 360 degrees out
to infinity; but even if they exist, the demons must be limited 
by special relativity which makes by necessity their calculations
to be non-causal.

  Second, not that I believe it for a minute, but you are claiming
with the above description that if you succeed in making 
a ZPE(vacuum) engine at Earthtech, then to the degree that it works, 
the local structures will collapse into a black hole.
   Gosh.  What will that do for property values?
    [You better upgrade your insurance.  ;-)X  

    Mitchell Swartz


 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 17:11:39 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: thermocouples
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:03:59 -0500
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Vo,

If you took two of the same type thermocouple and wire them in parallel,
would you get an average voltage of the two?

If not, why not?

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc., P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
voice: (603) 226-4822    fax: (603) 224-5975    
website: www.infinite-energy.com

"I believe it is better to learn what is probable about important matters
than to be certain about trival ones."
Ian Stevenson

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 18:03:11 1999
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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In a message dated 2/18/99 3:49:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, little eden.com
writes:

<< Without the zero-point field, atoms would collapse! >>

Scott,
Let's be thankful for zero-point field.  Who wants all his atoms to collapse? 

Seriously, need to get into the learning mode.  Is there a primer?

Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 18:37:22 1999
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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In a message dated 2/18/99 5:09:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, ewall infinite-
energy.com writes:

<< 
 If you took two of the same type thermocouple and wire them in parallel,
 would you get an average voltage of the two?
 
 If not, why not?
  >>
Ed,
Probably not.
The voltage you would get would be a function of the series resistance of each
of the thermocouples.  Although the resistances are low, they are unlikely to
be exactly equal.  To get a signal that is proportional to the sum of the two
thermocouple outputs, put equal resistors of at least ten times the internal
resistance of the thermocouples in series with each thermocouple and load them
with a resistor of about the same value.  The voltage across the load will be
proportional to the sum of the voltage generated by the thermocouples.  

It's hard to draw a circuit diagram in prose but I hope it's clear.

Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 19:26:40 1999
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:25:21 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 2/18/99 5:09:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, ewall infinite-
energy.com writes:

<< If you took two of the same type thermocouple and wire them in parallel,
 would you get an average voltage of the two?
  >>
 Ed,

My earlier response was based on the assumption that the thermocouples have
one leg common, i.e., grounded.  If they are electrically independent, there's
an easier way.
The simplest way to get the sum of the two thermocouple outputs is to put them
in series.  If you really want a numerical average, look at the summed outputs
through a 2:1 resistance divider.

Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 19:26:43 1999
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:23:59 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Beer
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Some people might accuse me of just being one of the many
credulity-impaired casualties of excessive internet BS, but I've just seen
and heard too many weird things first hand in my life to dismiss this. So I
don't know anymore.

It's a joke, right?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 18 23:32:08 1999
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Message-ID: <36CD167F.247B keelynet.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:45:03 -0600
From: "Jerry W. Decker" <jdecker keelynet.com>
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Hi Folks!

Here is an interesting technique to produce high voltage;
=======================
From: Gabriel Lorente <glorente ind.uned.es>
Organization: UNED
To:  jdecker keelynet.com

Dear Sir: 

Please find at;

http://info.uned.es/electrostatic-generator/index.html 

a short description of the features of this new electrostatic patented
generator. - Compliments - Gabriel Lorente 
===========================
The prototypes made and tested provided voltages in the range of
30.000-50.000 Volts, with currents of a few microamperes. 

It consists of four equal cylinders or rollers with their axes parallel
to each other and with their surfaces kept always in contact by mean of
springs. All the axes are in the same plane. They are able to rotate,
without friction, remaining always in contact each cylinder with the
lateral ones. 

The two external rollers are metallic and the two internal ones are of
suitable plastic materials, but of dissimilar nature. 

In my models I selected teflon and nylon (because they occupy extreme
opposite places in "electrostatic series"). 

For operation a driving force is applied to one of the rollers either by
hand or with a motor.

Because of this action all rollers rotate in close contact but without
mutual friction.

In the fringe of contact between teflon and nylon teflon receives
electrons from the nylon. The surfaces of dielectric rollers so became
charged respectively with electric charges of opposite signs.

Because teflon and nylon are insulators, charges remain fixed where
created and they do not diffuse in the bulk of material. 

Afterwards when the charges get in touch with metallic cylinders they
migrate to them and from them, through the metallic bearings into
external terminals of positive and negative sign respectively.

Several prototypes have been made and tested. The diameter of the
cylinders were 10ccm in some of them, 5 cm in other ones.

A very small number of them could be available.

Lorente's Generator or machine is patented in USA (nº 4990813) and in
the European Union (nº 3665911).
-- 
           Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker keelynet.com
         http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
      Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 19 00:28:29 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Is ZPE(v) is too small to be important?
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:26:45 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <36cd1fde.17637509 24.192.1.20>
References: <3.0.1.32.19990218093416.0097e3cc mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990218065556.00740a10@world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19990217115103.0098bd2c@mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990217101136.010924b8@world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19990218133213.009b4ac8@mail.eden.com

>
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On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:32:13 -0600, Scott Little wrote:
[snip]
>We seek a non-conservative interaction with the ZPF.  We are aware that
>such may turn out to be fundamentally impossible...a violation of the
>Second Law of Thermodynamics, for example.  There is much else to be
>learned from study of the ZPF...the true nature of inertia, for example.

I suspect that if any useful energy is to be derived from the ZPF, it
will have to come from some inherent anisotropy.
(Which I suspect is indeed present to some degree).

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Hydrino Water
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-----Original Message-----
From: ron kita <tekcorman yahoo.com>
To: Frederick Sparber <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 11:26 PM
Subject: Hydrino Water

Ron Kita wrote:


>I was reading the Mills  Art Rosenblum article
>and trying to find out  how to  make "hydrino"water.
>I assume one must get to atomic hydrogen then
>bubble it thru potassium carbonate ????

If you use an alumina catalytic H2/O2 "burner" you can set the  H2/O2 feed
rate to high enough temperatures to melt the Alumina and boil the Palladium.

>would be simpler....I guess
>that catalytic beads will crack the H2?--oxy feed req?

At 2000 K or so the hot Pd-Alumina will dissociate the excess H2 to 2 H and
the Potassium Aluminate (K2Al2O4)formed when 2 KOH
is heated in hot alumina:

2 KOH + Al2O3 ---> K2Al2O4 + H2O

You can get pretty close to the H2/2H and the K/K+ ratios using the Saha
equation:

log10 (Ni^2/No) = -5040*(Vi/T)+ 1.5* log10T+15.385

Ni is the number of ions producted at a given temperature and Vi is the
ionization energy (ev) or the H2 dissociation energy (ev).
Just substitute log10 of the H^2/H2 ratio in the Saha Equation, for an
approximation.


>To get the raw molecular hydrogen I was thinking
>of splitting water with a battery charger....

Don't use ANY electrical energy, it's a WASTE OF ENERGY. The SuperHot steam
out of the catalytic burner tube can react with ANY CARBONACEOUS MATERIAL
forming H2 + CO/CO2 and separated with a molecular sieve. A small clay tube
will suffice as a mole sieve to separate ou molecular H2/D2.

Using Methane (CH4, Natural Gas)in place of H2  will produce EXCESS H2 in
situ: CH4 + O2 ---> CO + H2O + H2
but it could get a bit tricky, and dangerous.

>not sure if dry gas into the cat is required.

>Will probably try to "light" the beads by applying
>external heat rather than oxy injection into cat.

You want the O2 (NOT AIR) and excess H2 to burn to water on the Pd-Alumina
Beads. Once lit, it will stay hot and you can regulate the cat temp by H2/O2
gas flow. The water formed will only dissociate a few percent at 3,000K. The
reaction between the EXCESS H2 and the K+ should form the Hydrinos with a
large heat release. You should be able to run a Thermionic
Power Generator off the Cat burner tube.  :-)

You can buy bottled O2 and H2 for this at your local welders supply. Or you
can use a mole sieve oxygen separator (Pressure Swing Absorption) units that
produce about 4 liters/minute of 95% O2 from room air, used for medical
oxygen production.

Regards,  Frederick


>Best,
>Ron
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>


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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "ron kita" <tekcorman yahoo.com>
Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrino Water & Potassium Beta-Alumina
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 04:14:40 -0700
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Ron,

The Sodium or Potassium Beta Aluminas, Na2O-Al2O3 or K2O-Al2O3 are used in
batteries so that the Na+ or K+ ions are used as charge carriers.

Thus at 2500K or so, the Pd-Alumina-K2O catalyst should make Hydrinos if you
use EXCESS H2 in the burner tube (Alumina). If you want to have a metal
casing over the burner tube, I suggest 316-L stainless.

I tried mild steel once and it melted like hot butter.  :-)

When the cat converters first came out there were several instances where
farmers left their pickup trucks running in the fields and the hot cat
converters set their crops on fire. Also melted the asphalt under the
converters.

The condenser for the exiting steam should contain "Hydrino Water" along
with Hydrinos and the unreacted H2.

Regards,   Frederick

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From: Tstolper aol.com
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George,

Thanks for the reminder of your excellent graphs.  You did all of us here at
Vortex-L a service by providing them.

Last summer, when I finally got a Mac good enough to run a Web browser, your
graphs were among the first images that I downloaded.  They're still on my
hard drive.

It was also good to hear from someone like you with more technical knowledge
that Vince's experimental configuration was sure to provide lots of H atoms
and K+ ions.  Judging by the results, they made lots of catalytic contact in
the confines of Vince's small cell.

Have you considered trying to replicate Vince's experiment yourself?

Tom Stolper

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Fred,

Thanks for the intriguing mention of Lutz and Suits, but since I don't have
your scientific and engineering background, I didn't see the relevance to
Vince's experiment.  Could you expand on that a little?

You wrote in that post:  "It looks like Vince Cockeram's experiments with
added Potassium or Potassium compounds are on the right track wrt the Hydrino
etc. if done properly."

Did Vince ever try any K compounds?  I thought that he kept things simple by
using straight elemental K.  (I was unsubscribed at the time, unfortunately,
so I'm not up on all the details of Vince's experimentation.)

Tom Stolper

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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Subject: Re: thermocouples
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:13:09 -0500
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Bob,

> My earlier response was based on the assumption that the thermocouples
have
> one leg common, i.e., grounded.  If they are electrically independent,
there's
> an easier way.
> The simplest way to get the sum of the two thermocouple outputs is to put
them
> in series.  If you really want a numerical average, look at the summed
outputs
> through a 2:1 resistance divider.
> 
I think you are thinking of a Seebeck envelope calorimeter, but in order to
sum voltages, each junction in the series must be oriented in the same way.
 Resistance is not at issue here because there is no current flow, to speak
of.  These dissimilar metal junctions are like little batteries that have
to be sensed by a high impedance input to an amplifier.  Any current causes
a non-negligable voltage drop across the conductor (because it has
resistance).  Putting them in parallel (same polarity) would not sum the
voltages any more than putting batteries in parallel would increase that
voltage.  

If you draw out a series of wires, alternating type, say aluminel and
chromel for a K-type, you see that the order of junctions has reversed
polarity at each one.  After one junction, you have voltage, after two, you
have none, after three, you have voltage, after four, you have none.  The
Seebeck envelope works by putting every other junction in a reference
temperture, at least in my understanding.

Now, if you have a set of batteries, all of the same capacity and put them
in parallel, isn't the voltage the average of the potentials of those
batteries.  If one battery had a greater capacity to generate charge, then
the average would be weighted in its favor.  

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc., P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
voice: (603) 226-4822    fax: (603) 224-5975    
website: www.infinite-energy.com

"I believe it is better to learn what is probable about important matters
than to be certain about trival ones."
Ian Stevenson

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 19 06:17:40 1999
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Subject: Re: Is ZPE(v) is too small to be important?
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At 08:26 2/19/99 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>I suspect that if any useful energy is to be derived from the ZPF, it
>will have to come from some inherent anisotropy.

Yes, just as a heat engine can produce useful energy if it has a
temperature difference to work with.  Robert Forward has recently proposed
an astounding ZPF engine based upon some rather tedious calculations of the
Casimir forces on the walls of a hollow rectangular prism.  According to
the calculations, a cube is unstable in the ZPF...the walls are pushed
apart.  A long rectangular prism, however, is stable...the walls are pushed
together.  Forward has worked out a cyclical sequence of moves using
telescoping wall panels that should result in continuous extraction of
energy from the ZPF!  He proposed this idea to the NASA Breakthrough
Physics Propulsion Research group recently.

Frankly, I think it's too simple.  It makes me suspect the validity of
those calculations.  Unfortunately, I can't understand them well enough to
judge them.

At 18:08 2/18/99 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>Two problems.   First, the hypothesis assumes Maxwell demons
>on every electron....

Apparently you got something out of my brief explanation that was not
intended.  If you read the paper, you will retract that statement.

>Second, not that I believe it for a minute, but you are claiming
>with the above description that if you succeed in making 
>a ZPE(vacuum) engine at Earthtech, then to the degree that it works, 
>the local structures will collapse into a black hole.

True in principle.  However, due to the incredible energy density of the
ZPF, and the fact that local deficiences would be replenished at the speed
of light, you could extract terawatts from a generator occupying 1 cubic
meter and not create a detectable deficiency in the local ZPF.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 19 06:35:02 1999
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Subject: ZPE(v) is too small to be important
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  At 08:14 AM 2/19/99 -0600, Scott Little wrote:

>At 18:08 2/18/99 -0500, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>
>>Two problems.   First, the hypothesis assumes Maxwell demons
>>on every electron....
>
>Apparently you got something out of my brief explanation that was not
>intended.  If you read the paper, you will retract that statement.


   No.  It is a requirement, along with the "lifting" of 
special relativity, of the theory.  That is why it is
unbelievable.  Those are the two "miracles" of the theory.

  ======================================================


>>Second, not that I believe it for a minute, but you are claiming
>>with the above description that if you succeed in making 
>>a ZPE(vacuum) engine at Earthtech, then to the degree that it works, 
>>the local structures will collapse into a black hole.
>
>True in principle.  However, due to the incredible energy density of the
>ZPF, and the fact that local deficiences would be replenished at the speed
>of light, you could extract terawatts from a generator occupying 1 cubic
>meter and not create a detectable deficiency in the local ZPF.


   Doubt it.  
   Femtowatts -- as mentioned -- is more likely, until
you prove otherwise, of course.     ;-)X

   Cold fusion [ http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html ],
and probably not ZPE, will drive humanity in the future
between the stars.

       Mitchell Swartz



     

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-----Original Message-----
From: Tstolper aol.com <Tstolper@aol.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: High pressure Steam and Hydrogen Discharge Anomalies

Tom wrote:


>Fred,
>
>Thanks for the intriguing mention of Lutz and Suits, but since I don't have
>your scientific and engineering background, I didn't see the relevance to
>Vince's experiment.  Could you expand on that a little?

Well, if you go back through the Vortex Archives you will find that I was
instrumental in pushing Vince into doing his experiment and stipulating that
he use K metal.  :-)

The Lotz and Suits experiments/anomalies are something that I've been
intrigued with for decades, but I was thinking in terms of Fusion reactions
and not Hydrino Formation energy.

At the discharge temperatures (several thousand Kelvin)that Suits measured
there are bound to be some Hydrinos formed, and heat released. But,
>
>You wrote in that post:  "It looks like Vince Cockeram's experiments with
>added Potassium or Potassium compounds are on the right track wrt the
Hydrino
>etc. if done properly."
>
>Did Vince ever try any K compounds?  I thought that he kept things simple
by
>using straight elemental K.

The quartz (SiO2) will react with elemental K
forming K2O-SiO and the hydrogen will react with the K2O:

K2O + H2  <---> KOH + KH

> (I was unsubscribed at the time, unfortunately,
>so I'm not up on all the details of Vince's experimentation.)

Vince is doing a good job, but, his "calorimetry" needs to be more precise.
:-)

Regards,   Frederick
>
>Tom Stolper
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 19 08:06:14 1999
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BriggsRO aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 2/18/99 3:49:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, little eden.com
> writes:
> 
> << Without the zero-point field, atoms would collapse! >>
> 
> Scott,
> Let's be thankful for zero-point field.  Who wants all his atoms to collapse?
> 
> Seriously, need to get into the learning mode.  Is there a primer?
> 
> Bob

Bob,

A good start are some of the papers linked from the Journal for
Scientific Exploration web page:

http://www.jse.com/haisch/zpf.html

Enjoy!

Terry

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Since BB is too kind to ask, I'll remind everyone that it is time to
make your donation to the Vortex webmeister to defer some of the
expense he incurs to provide this most wonderful service.

Bill, can you post the canned message that has the recommended
donation and address?

Terry

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In a message dated 2/19/99 6:10:40 AM Pacific Standard Time, ewall infinite-
energy.com writes:

<< Resistance is not at issue here because there is no current flow, to speak
 of.  These dissimilar metal junctions are like little batteries that have
 to be sensed by a high impedance input to an amplifier.  Any current causes
 a non-negligable voltage drop across the conductor (because it has
 resistance).  Putting them in parallel (same polarity) would not sum the
 voltages any more than putting batteries in parallel would increase that
 voltage.  

Ed, 

If you put the thermocouples in parallel, each one is a load on the other.  A
current will flow determined by the voltage difference and the sum of the
resistance of each thermocouple.  Paralleling their outputs through much
larger resistors doesn't give you an average but it gives you a voltage
proportional (but smaller than) the sum of the two voltages.  If the object is
to determine the average, you need a calibration factor which can be worked
out by ohms law.  
 
 If you draw out a series of wires, alternating type, say aluminel and
 chromel for a K-type, you see that the order of junctions has reversed
 polarity at each one.  After one junction, you have voltage, after two, you
 have none, after three, you have voltage, after four, you have none.  The
 Seebeck envelope works by putting every other junction in a reference
 temperture, at least in my understanding.

Sounds right.
 
 Now, if you have a set of batteries, all of the same capacity and put them
 in parallel, isn't the voltage the average of the potentials of those
 batteries.  If one battery had a greater capacity to generate charge, then
 the average would be weighted in its favor.  

I don't understand "capacity" as applied to batteries.  

Each battery or thermocouple can be represented by a zero resistance voltage
source and a series resistor.  You would have to know the open circuit voltage
of each battery and it's series resistance.  Then you could draw a diagram and
work out the voltage at any point in the circuit by ohms law.  
 
 The easiest way to get the sum of the voltages is to series them into an open
circuit or load them with a high resistance.  Of course, the other end of the
thermocouples has to be at reference temperature as always.

I hope this is helping.  
 
Regards,

Bob

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In the latest issue of New Energy News (Vol 6 No 7 Jan 1999) on p. 11:

"
JET TECHNOLOGY OFFERS EXCESS HEAT UNITS
Courtesy Dr. Mitch Swartz

In a first-of-a-kind, JET Technology, Inc. has mailed an advertising
leaflet announcing the following:
JET Energy Technology sysem use the generation of heat at low temperatures
to deveop electrical energy and other products.  There novel technologies
can develop heat apparently beyond that which is electrically applied, in
an amount ranging from 2 to 400% or more. The peak power levels achieved
with these systems have increased from 1989 (~20 watts per cc palladium) to
levels now approaching two orders of magnitude greater. These high
technology systems are advertised as "Patents Pending." For more
information contact (781) 237-3625, email: mica world.std.com
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"

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Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 19 10:10:12 1999
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Ante Up Folks, Terry.   :-)
>
>WARNING: AT LEAST READ THE RULES BELOW!
>
>The Vortex-L list was originally created for discussions of professional
>research into fluid vortex/cavitation devices which exhibit anomalous
>energy effects (ie: the inventions of Schaeffer, Huffman, Griggs, and
>Potapov among others.)  Skeptics beware, the topics also wander to any
>anomalous physics such as "Cold Fusion," reports of excess energy in "free
>energy" devices, chemical transmutation, gravity generation and detection,
>and all sorts of supposedly crackpot claims.  Please see the rules below.
>This is a public, lightly-moderated list.  Interested parties are welcome
>to subscribe.  PLEASE READ THE RULES BEFORE SUBSCRIBING.  There is no
>charge, but donations towards expenses are accepted (see rules below for
>suggested donation.)
>
>
>Moderator:  billb eskimo.com
>            William J. Beaty
>            7040 22nd Ave NW
>            Seattle, WA 98117
>            206-781-3320 USA

>
>WARNING: THE "UNSUBSCRIBER" MIGHT GET YOU
>
>**************************************************************************
>Vortex-L Rules:
>
>1. If VORTEX-L proves very useful or interesting to you, please consider
>   making a $10US/yr donation to help cover operating expenses.  If you
>   cannot afford this, please feel free to participate anyway.  If you
>   would like to give more, please do!  Direct your check to the
>   moderator, address above.  Any help you can give is sincerely
>   appreciated.
>
>2. This is not the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup; ridicule, debunkery, and
>   namecalling between believers and skeptics are forbidden.  The tone
>   should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate.
>   Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having
>   some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave
>   in disgust.  But if your mind is open, hop on board!  Help us test
>   "crazy" claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away.
>   (For a good analysis of the negative aspects of skepticism, see ZEN AND
>   THE ART OF DEBUNKERY by D. Drasin, on WEIRD SCIENCE page.)
>
>3. Small email files please.  The limit is set to 40K right now, those
>   exceeding the limit will be forwarded to Bill Beaty.  If you wish to
>   start extremely off-topic discussions, please feel free to exchange
>   initial messages on vortex-L, but MOVE THE DISCUSSION TO PRIVATE MAIL
>   IMMEDIATELY.  Some members are on limited service, or have to pay for
>   received email.  Diagrams and graphics can be mailed to me or John
>   Logajan and posted on our webpages for viewing.
>
>4. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE: when you reply to a message DON'T include the
>   ENTIRE message in your reply.  Always edit it a bit and delete
>   something.  The more you delete, the less traffic overload.  The entire
>   message should really only be included if: (A) you are replying to a
>   message that is many days old, or (B) you are doing a point-by-point
>   reply to many parts of a message.  Many vortex users must pay by the
>   kilobyte for receiving message traffic, and large amounts of redundant
>   messages are irritating and expensive.  So, when including a quoted
>   message in your reply, ALWAYS DELETE SOMETHING, the more the better.
>
>5. Please do not include any other email list in the TO line or the CC
>   line of your messages to vortex-L.  In the past this has caused
>   thread leakage between different list and redundant messages as
>   replies from subscribers go to both lists.  It's OK to manually forward
>   mail from other lists to vortex-L, as long as the TO line and CC line
>   has only vortex-L and no other list.
>
>6. "Junkmail" email advertizing will not be tolerated.  While not illegal
>   yet, widecasting of junk-email ads to listservers is against the
>   Unwritten Rules of the Internet.  Anyone who spams vortex-L with
junkmail
>   will be referred to the Internet Vigilante Justice team.  ;)
>   Occasional on-topic advertizing by long-time vortex-L users is
acceptable.
>
>   - Bill B.
>




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 19 11:22:30 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Hydrogen Beer
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:17:46 -0800
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Rick
	It falls in the same category as the people with seared anus's from
igniting their farts. This happened at a fraternity at Cornell while I was
there. Probably the hydrogen was true also .
Hank
> ----------
> From: 	Rick Monteverde[SMTP:monteverde worldnet.att.net]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, February 18, 1999 7:23 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: Hydrogen Beer
> 
> Some people might accuse me of just being one of the many
> credulity-impaired casualties of excessive internet BS, but I've just seen
> and heard too many weird things first hand in my life to dismiss this. So
> I
> don't know anymore.
> 
> It's a joke, right?
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 19 11:34:24 1999
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Message-Id: <199902191929.OAA15579 mercury.mv.net>
From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: thermocouples
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:34:24 -0500
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Bob,

> If you put the thermocouples in parallel, each one is a load on the
other. 
Of course.  Any power source is loaded by what its connections determine.

> Paralleling their outputs through much
> larger resistors doesn't give you an average but it gives you a voltage
> proportional (but smaller than) the sum of the two voltages.
When did these much larger resistors make their appearance?

> If the object is
> to determine the average, you need a calibration factor which can be
worked
> out by ohms law.  
>

This is an analogy.  

If we have a 5 uF capacitor that is charged to some voltage and another 5uF
capacitor that is charged to some other voltage and the same charge leads
of both capacitors are connected, the voltage across either capacitor is
the same and is an average of the original voltages, neglecting the energy
lost when the spark occurs.  

Thermocouples are diferent because they continuously produce charge
separation, instead of just storing it, but otherwise the same argument
holds.  Capacity (ability to hold charge) is a little different for each
thermocouple, but such differences are insignificant for the application in
question.  Repeatability is the goal.
    
> Of course, the other end of the thermocouples has to be at reference
temperature as always.
This assumption does not work with people working with modern thermocouple
equipment, which have built-in junctions that are not apparent.

Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 19 11:47:05 1999
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From: "Craig Haynie" <ccHaynie ix.netcom.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Ante UP for Vortex
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:45:56 -0600
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Here, here!

I've been a bum for too long.

Craig Haynie (Houston)

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 10:28 AM
Subject: Ante UP for Vortex


>Since BB is too kind to ask, I'll remind everyone that it is time to
>make your donation to the Vortex webmeister to defer some of the
>expense he incurs to provide this most wonderful service.
>
>Bill, can you post the canned message that has the recommended
>donation and address?
>
>Terry
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 19 12:17:59 1999
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-----Original Message-----
From: Scudder, Henry J <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: 'vortex-l eskimo.com' <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 12:20 PM
Subject: RE: Hydrogen Beer

Is that how you became a Rocket Scientist, Hank?    :-)

Regards,   Frederick


>Rick
> It falls in the same category as the people with seared anus's from
>igniting their farts. This happened at a fraternity at Cornell while I was
>there. Probably the hydrogen was true also .
>Hank
>



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 19 12:20:02 1999
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:18:17 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 2/19/99 11:33:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, ewall infinite-
energy.com writes:

<< Of course.  Any power source is loaded by what its connections determine.
 
Ed, that remark was a response to your comment that the thermocouples were
loaded only by a high resistance measuring device.  You put them in parallel
and they both have a very low resistance load.

 > Paralleling their outputs through much
 > larger resistors doesn't give you an average but it gives you a voltage
 > proportional (but smaller than) the sum of the two voltages.

 When did these much larger resistors make their appearance?
  
Ed, the much larger resistors appeared in my first suggestion that you sum the
voltages through resistors about 10 times the resistance of the thermocouple
to avoid the problem of different resistances in the two couples.
 
 > If the object is
 > to determine the average, you need a calibration factor which can be
 worked
 > out by ohms law.  
 >
 
 This is an analogy.  
 
 If we have a 5 uF capacitor that is charged to some voltage and another 5uF
 capacitor that is charged to some other voltage and the same charge leads
 of both capacitors are connected, the voltage across either capacitor is
 the same and is an average of the original voltages, neglecting the energy
 lost when the spark occurs.  
   
Ed, the capacitance analogy is not too accurate.  A nearly rigorous analogy is
to simulate the thermocouples with a zero resistance battery and a series
resistor.  Then just use ohms law.

 Thermocouples are different because they continuously produce charge
 separation, instead of just storing it, but otherwise the same argument
 holds.  Capacity (ability to hold charge) is a little different for each
 thermocouple, but such differences are insignificant for the application in
 question.  Repeatability is the goal.
     
 I'm afraid that I'm not doing much good for your problem.  

Bob
 
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 19 12:45:38 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Hydrogen Beer
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Ouch!

> ----------
> From: 	Frederick J Sparber[SMTP:fjsparb sprintmail.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Friday, February 19, 1999 12:16 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: Hydrogen Beer
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scudder, Henry J <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
> To: 'vortex-l eskimo.com' <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 12:20 PM
> Subject: RE: Hydrogen Beer
> 
> Is that how you became a Rocket Scientist, Hank?    :-)
> 
> Regards,   Frederick
> 
> 
> >Rick
> > It falls in the same category as the people with seared anus's from
> >igniting their farts. This happened at a fraternity at Cornell while I
> was
> >there. Probably the hydrogen was true also .
> >Hank
> >
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 19 14:53:45 1999
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Frederick J Sparber wrote:
> 
> Ante Up Folks, Terry.   :-)
> >
> >WARNING: AT LEAST READ THE RULES BELOW!
> >
> >The Vortex-L list was originally created for discussions of professional
> >research into fluid vortex/cavitation devices which exhibit anomalous
> >energy effects (ie: the inventions of Schaeffer, Huffman, Griggs, and
> >Potapov among others.) 

<snip>

Thanks, Fred.  The check's in the mail.  :Þ

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 19 18:45:43 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Beer
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 21:46:03 -0500
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>Some people might accuse me of just being one of the many
>credulity-impaired casualties of excessive internet BS, but I've just seen
>and heard too many weird things first hand in my life to dismiss this. So I
>don't know anymore.
>
>It's a joke, right?
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

Hey Rick,

        Gene sent something about this hydrogen beer belching business going
on in Tokyo to the group about a year ago.  I wrote to a friend in Japan,
and asked him if he had heard anything about it.  He teaches English in a
small village.  At the time, he said that he didn't know anything about it,
but that it wouldn't surprise him, as a lot of weird stuff goes on in the
Tokyo bar scene.  I'll have to write again, and ask if he's heard anything yet.

        I've seen a lot of weird stuff happen in bars in my day.  British
squatties eating their beer glasses, bikers breaking bottles over each
others' heads in contests, frat boys lighting farts, crabbers playing high
card for their season paychecks ($50,000).  And I've even seen weirder
stuff, too, but won't tell you about that because you just wouldn't believe it.

        As for the hydrogen beer story, I haven't quite decided which is the
stupidest part - putting hydrogen in the beer, the smoking, or the karaoke:)
The human race never ceases to amaze me.

-Knuke

          
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
Lady Lake, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 19 20:40:04 1999
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Message-ID: <19990220043934.17488.rocketmail send105.yahoomail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:39:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: thermocouples
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Ed:

Bob has explained thermocouple connection and the problem of parallel
connection well. If you are having a problem understanding it, then
perhaps you are not very familiar with the Thevenin equivalent circuit
used to approximate the behavior of most real power sources. This
equivalent is best taught by dwawing simple schematics, writing a
couple of simple circuit equations, and having the student solve
exercises until the concept sinks in. It's not difficult, but it is
not easy to by ascii email messages. 

Perhaps instead you can tell us what is the real problem you are
trying to solve, and then maybe we out here can be of more use to you.
==
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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BriggsRO aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/18/99 5:09:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, ewall infinite-
> energy.com writes:
>
> <<
>  If you took two of the same type thermocouple and wire them in parallel,
>  would you get an average voltage of the two?
>
>  If not, why not?
>   >>

Two thermocouples, when wired together and exposed to "heat", will promptly
thermocopulate, resulting in more thermocouples.
;^}

--
Regards,
Patrick V. Reavis
http://ro.com/~preavis
http://ro.com/~preavis/Quiz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 20 06:15:52 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Fred,

Mills has said in the past that the hydrinos don't react with atomic or
molecular oxygen, so I don't think that there is any such thing as hydrino
water.

Can your web browser view PDF files?  Have you read the new stuff on the BLP
website about the hydrino hydride compounds?  You seem to know a lot about
chemistry and chemical engineering, so I'd be interested in your opinion.

Tom Stolper

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&nbsp;
<p>Ed Wall wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Bob,
<p>> My earlier response was based on the assumption that the thermocouples
<br>have
<br>> one leg common, i.e., grounded.&nbsp; If they are electrically independent,
<br>there's
<br>> an easier way.
<br>> The simplest way to get the sum of the two thermocouple outputs is
to put
<br>them
<br>> in series.&nbsp; If you really want a numerical average, look at
the summed
<br>outputs
<br>> through a 2:1 resistance divider.
<br>>
<p>&nbsp;Resistance is not at issue here because there is no current flow,
to speak
<br>of.&nbsp; These dissimilar metal junctions are like little batteries
that have
<br>to be sensed by a high impedance input to an amplifier.&nbsp; Any current
causes
<br>a non-negligable voltage drop across the conductor (because it has
<br>resistance).&nbsp; Putting them in parallel (same polarity) would not
sum the
<br>voltages any more than putting batteries in parallel would increase
that
<br>voltage.
<br>Ed Wall</blockquote>

<p><br>Ed 'n Bob,
<br>Perhaps this summing amplifier will do.&nbsp; In the attached image*,
<br>set R1 = R2 = Rf
<br>&nbsp;
<blockquote>Where T1 is Voltage from Thermocouple 1,
<br>and&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; T2 is is Voltage from Thermocouple 2
<br>Rf, the feedback resistance, gives the amplifier unity gain (sorry,
no over unity gain here!).</blockquote>

<p><br>Since the first op amp inverts the signal, I've added a second unity
gain inverting amp to restore
<br>the proper polarity.&nbsp; Rf must be set as closely as possible to
R1 or R2,
<br>so it's OK use potentiometers for all three (for tweaking), or use
precision resistors.
<p>A possible problem is the input impedance. Zin will equal R1, so you
may need to use large values for
<br>R1, R2 and Rf.
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;
<p>*the author assumes no responsibility for proper circuit operation.&nbsp;
Since I've not worked much with thermocouples,
<br>it is entirely possible that I don't know what I'm talking about! :)
<br>&nbsp;
<p>--
<br>Regards,
<br>Patrick V. Reavis
<br><A HREF="http://ro.com/~preavis">http://ro.com/~preavis</A>
<br><A HREF="http://ro.com/~preavis/Quiz">http://ro.com/~preavis/Quiz</A>
<br>&nbsp;</html>

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<p>"Patrick V. Reavis" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Ed 'n Bob,
<br>Perhaps this summing amplifier will do.&nbsp; In the attached image*,
<br>set R1 = R2 = Rf
<br>&nbsp;
<blockquote>Where T1 is Voltage from Thermocouple 1,
<br>and&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; T2 is is Voltage from Thermocouple 2
<br>Rf, the feedback resistance, gives the amplifier unity gain (sorry,
no over unity gain here!).</blockquote>

<p><br>Since the first op amp inverts the signal, I've added a second unity
gain inverting amp to restore
<br>the proper polarity.&nbsp; Rf must be set as closely as possible to
R1 or R2,
<br>so it's OK use potentiometers for all three (for tweaking), or use
precision resistors.
<p>A possible problem is the input impedance. Zin will equal R1, so you
may need to use large values for
<br>R1, R2 and Rf.
<br>&nbsp;</blockquote>
I forgot to add;
<br>If all input resistors are of equal value, and if the ratio of any
input resistor to feedback resistor is equal to the number of input resistors,
<br>Then the output _is_ the average of the inputs.
<br>That is;
<blockquote>if&nbsp; R1 = R2, and R1 / Rf&nbsp; = 2,
<br>then Vout = (Thermocouple 1 voltage + Thermocouple 2 voltage) / 2
<br>(Example: R1 = 20K, R2 = 20K, Rf = 10K)
<br>This works for as many inputs you want to use!
<br>&nbsp;</blockquote>

<p>--
<br>Regards,
<br>Patrick V. Reavis
<br><A HREF="http://ro.com/~preavis">http://ro.com/~preavis</A>
<br><A HREF="http://ro.com/~preavis/Quiz">http://ro.com/~preavis/Quiz</A>
<br>&nbsp;</html>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 20 07:57:56 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Conte Success
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Yesterday my I.E. #23 arrived.  There is a surprising article on page 67 by
Ilio Conte and Maria Pierlice.  Since my copy usually arrives much later
here in Alaska than for others, I am surprised there has been no discussion
on vortex of the surprising results he has achieved.   Most notable is the
fact the experiment was repeated 30 times with 100 percent success.  Also
notable was the melting of the aluminum cathode, an unexpected result.

The experiment utilizes a 100 mm glass cube cell run at 12 V 100 mA, 1 M
Na2SO4 or Li2So4 electrolyte, a cathode consisting of a 1mm cube (yes
that's right, 1 mm) of fine aluminum gauze with Pt lead wire, and a mesh Pt
anode surrounding the cube cathode.  The special feature of the experiment
was a "colimated beam" of electrons (and thus also the gammas?) from a 2.39
KBq 90Sr + 90Y source.  A BF3 neutron counter was placed adjacent to the
glass cell. A background count of less than 3 neutrons/hour was obtained in
control experiments and 60/hour (uncertainty 8 percent) was obtained in
live experiments.

Conte and Pieralice attribute the neutrons to a low energy (~0.5 MeV) P + e
-> n reaction consistent with Conte's QM based theory predicting such
reactions (see posted on BB's web page).

No calorimetry was performed becuase the melting Al cathode was unexpected.
Work is continuing to examine the heat phenomenon.

The reliability of the experiment is the most interesting aspect.  This
means the result, if erroneous, is due to a repeatable phenomenon, and thus
amenable to fairly quick diagnosis.  Similarly, reliable replication should
also be a possibility.

The article does not spell out in much detail any care taken to measure
neutron counts in a pre-electrolysis state, the most important control
information.  It does say the neutron counts only occur when the
radioactive source is present.  It would have been nice to see neutron
counts as a function of time after electrolysis current on, but with the
collimated beam always present.  It would be comforting to clearly see that
the counts are not from emissions coming directly or indirectly from the
source material.  Showing that the neutron counts are a function of H
loading would accomplish that.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: thermocouples
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:49:21 -0500
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Mike Schaffer wrote:

> Bob has explained thermocouple connection and the problem of parallel
> connection well. If you are having a problem understanding it, then
> perhaps you are not very familiar with the Thevenin equivalent circuit
> used to approximate the behavior of most real power sources. This
> equivalent is best taught by dwawing simple schematics, writing a
> couple of simple circuit equations, and having the student solve
> exercises until the concept sinks in. It's not difficult, but it is
> not easy to by ascii email messages. 
> 
> Perhaps instead you can tell us what is the real problem you are
> trying to solve, and then maybe we out here can be of more use to you.

I appreciate your helpfulness.  I do understand basic circuit analysis
fairly well, even if I do not perform it on a regular basis.

My requirement is to obtain a repeatable signal from a network of
thermocouples, not necessarily corresponding to real temperature.  There
are a number of ways to do this, but simplicity is preferred.  A Seebeck
calorimeter would do the job.  A large number of thermocouples
independently monitored and recorded would work, but this introduces
unnecessary complexity. 

I think I know the answer to the question of whether a signal from a
parallel combination of thermocouples is repeatable is clearly "yes."  I
think that it may not correspond closely to temperature because the if
circuitry that normally monitors a thermocouple ("meter") would be
connected to a number of thermocouples in parallel, it is 'looking' at a
parallel combination of ordinary impedances, so the voltage it reads may
not correspond to exact temperature.  However, the "meter" has a high
impedance input (the 'big resistor that Bob describes') and a change in the
low impedance that it ordinarily sees in one thermocouple to a lower
impedance in a network of paralleled thermocouples will not make much
difference to the performance of the "meter".   

Ed Wall

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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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In a message dated 2/20/99 8:14:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, ewall infinite-
energy.com writes:

<< However, the "meter" has a high
 impedance input (the 'big resistor that Bob describes') and a change in the
 low impedance that it ordinarily sees in one thermocouple to a lower
 impedance in a network of paralleled thermocouples will not make much
 difference to the performance of the "meter".   
  >>
Ed,

I'm still trying.  

Please believe me that the circuit I described is a reasonable way to sum two
analog signals.  If your Thevenan's (sp?) analysis doesn't demonstrate that
you are doing it wrong.  It was about the only way we had to sum two signals
back in the days before things went digital.  Go back and read my original
message.  I proposed a resistor in series with each couple of about 10 times
the resistance of the couple, and a load resistor at the junction of these two
resistors, in parallel with the meter,  of about the same value.  Then,
neither the (very low) resistance of the thermocouples nor the (very high)
impedance of the meter are significant.

The other way to sum two analog signals is to put the two voltage sources
(thermocouples) in series if reference junctions and prefab ground connections
don't prevent it.  

BTW, a friend of mine whom some of you know suggested another interesting
possibility with paralleling two thermocouples reading different temperatures.
The resulting current could cause a peltier effect and cool one of the
junctions.  Maybe if you put them in parallel they would both stabilize at the
same temperature.  Good problem for physics 101.

Keep trying,

Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 20 10:24:12 1999
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Conte Success
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:21:30 -0700
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Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>The experiment utilizes a 100 mm glass cube cell run at 12 V 100 mA, 1 M
>Na2SO4 or Li2So4 electrolyte, a cathode consisting of a 1mm cube (yes
>that's right, 1 mm) of fine aluminum gauze with Pt lead wire, and a mesh Pt
>anode surrounding the cube cathode.  The special feature of the experiment
>was a "colimated beam" of electrons (and thus also the gammas?) from a 2.39
>KBq 90Sr + 90Y source.  A BF3 neutron counter was placed adjacent to the
>glass cell. A background count of less than 3 neutrons/hour was obtained in
>control experiments and 60/hour (uncertainty 8 percent) was obtained in
>live experiments.
>

With 1.0E19 deuterons/cm^3 in ordinary water the 2,390/sec, 2.282 Mev betas
from the Y90 daughter of Sr90 can knock 60 neutrons/minute from the
deuterons,which require 2.225 Mev. thats one in 143,000 beta hits.

Regards,   Frederick

>

>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner
>
>
>

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-----Original Message-----
From: Tstolper aol.com <Tstolper@aol.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 7:15 AM
Subject: Re: Hydrino Water

Tom wrote:


>Fred,
>
>Mills has said in the past that the hydrinos don't react with atomic or
>molecular oxygen, so I don't think that there is any such thing as hydrino
>water.

Probably not,but given Mills' theory nothing would surprise me.  :-)
>
>Can your web browser view PDF files?  Have you read the new stuff on the
BLP
>website about the hydrino hydride compounds?

I read though several seeming repititious pages, and the more I read, the
less convincing the theory becomes.

But, many things in Nature work just fine no matter how wrong the theories
are. :-)

The "Ionic Hydride" or salt-like properties of Hydrogen where H- ions are
formed and plated out of molten metal hydides are well known.

For instance molten LiH (680 C)plates out as Li+ + H-, nothing new there.
So, the fact that covalent bonds such as Hydrino Water H'-O-H' don't exist
is no surprise.

>You seem to know a lot about
>chemistry and chemical engineering, so I'd be interested in your opinion.

You're too kind, Tom.

I guess, as the old saying goes,"the proof is in the pudding".

Regards,   Frederick
>
>Tom Stolper
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 20 12:40:56 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: thermocouples
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 15:42:54 -0500
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Bob write:
> 
> Please believe me that the circuit I described is a reasonable way to sum
two
> analog signals.

I never doubted you for a moment, Bob.  I have no need to sum signals.

> BTW, a friend of mine whom some of you know suggested another interesting
> possibility with paralleling two thermocouples reading different
temperatures.
> The resulting current could cause a peltier effect and cool one of the
> junctions.  Maybe if you put them in parallel they would both stabilize
at the
> same temperature.  Good problem for physics 101.

The network of thermocouples, all in parallel can indeed develop cooling at
the junction of one or more thermocouples.  That would cool the object
being measured, but not as much as the extraction of heat that is done by
all of the thermocouple junctions in contact with the object being measured
(the electric potential energy does come from heat energy), which is
negligable or it would be a mistake to use thermocouples.

What I am doing is building a calorimeter with a large stainless steel
thermal mass in the center of a temperature regulated chamber full of air. 
The source of unknown heat, along with a joule heater of known power, are
contained within the stainless steel object.  The difficulty of measuring
the temperature of the stainless comes from its poor heat conduction.  It
will have hot and cold regions.  So, a representative temperature of the
object is difficult to obtain.  If a large number of thermocouple junctions
are pressed against the outside surface of the object, held in place by a
copper strip, the average signal of those thermocouples would be
representative of the average temperature of the entire object.  I think
that a good degree of repeatability can be had this way.

Please note that I am not trying to measure the actual temperature of the
object.  I wish to calibrate the signal thus obtained against the energy
into the Joule heater.  

Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 20 16:19:55 1999
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In a message dated 2/20/99 12:40:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, ewall infinite-
energy.com writes:

<< I never doubted you for a moment, Bob.  I have no need to sum signals.
  >>
Ed,

The usual way to average numbers is to first sum them, then divide the sum by
a constant.  That's why I thought you might want to sum the outputs of your
thermocouples in whose average you are interested.  

Your idea of putting an array of thermocouples all over the container and
taking the average is probably a good approximation of the average
temperature.  The copper strip changes the temperature distribution among
them, but I'm not sure what it would mean mathematically. 

For analog purposes, the sum of the signals is as an exact simulation of an
average, particularly if you aren't interested in the quantitative
temperature, but only a repeatable representation of average temperature.
Just sum the dudes.

The easiest way to sum a bunch of voltages is to put them in series.  The next
easiest is with a resistive summing network like I have previously described.

Good luck,

Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 20 16:53:05 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Subject: Re: thermocouples
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Bob,
> 
> Good luck,

I'll let you know if it works.

Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 20 16:57:03 1999
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In a message dated 2/20/99 4:52:53 PM Pacific Standard Time, ewall infinite-
energy.com writes:

<< I'll let you know if it works.
  >>
Thanks

Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 20 21:03:12 1999
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Subject: Re: thermocouples
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At 03:42 PM 2/20/99 -0500, Ed Wall wrote:

>What I am doing is building a calorimeter with a large stainless steel
>thermal mass in the center of a temperature regulated chamber full of air. 
>The source of unknown heat, along with a joule heater of known power, are
>contained within the stainless steel object.  The difficulty of measuring
>the temperature of the stainless comes from its poor heat conduction.  It
>will have hot and cold regions.

If you wire the TC's in series, you'll be very close to a Seebeck envelope,
which does properly handle the hot/cold regions.  However, you need to
surround the SS mass with a highly uniform thermal path to "ground" (the
outside enclosure actively maintained at constant T) so each TC's delta-T
will have the proper "weight".  In a more-or-less open chamber full of air,
I don't think you'll get acceptable results due to convection currents.
Maybe if you circulate the air with a fan...




Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 20 21:03:37 1999
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Subject: TC calorimetry
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I'm guessing the TC thing is your plan for the Case experiment.  

Why reinvent the wheel?  You are now taking steps to get good water-flow
calorimetry in your lab and it is perfectly applicable to the Case
experiment, too.

You MUST insulate the cell from the coil of Cu tubing so the cell can
operate at ~200C while the water remains at ~40C but that can be easily
accomplished with either air (as you proposed) or fiberglass (as I used).
If you are worried about the time constant, it will be EXACTLY the same as
the TC thing you are planning to try.

It is important to completely surround the experiment with the heat
exchanger.  I can show you how to make a "surround-coil" out of Cu tubing.



Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

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Subject: Very Slow Light
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> The following is taken from ABCNEWS 
> 
>
<http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/lightspeed990219.html>

> 
> 
> `Optical Molasses' Slows Light
> Scientists Reduce Speed of Light to a Crawl 
> 
> By Tom Kirchofer 
> The Associated Press 
> B O S T O N,   Feb. 19 - Scientists have managed 
> to slow down light so much that if 
> it were a car on a highway, it could 
> get a ticket for not getting over to 
> the right-hand lane. 
>    The speed of light is normally about 186,000 
> miles per second, or fast enough to go around 
> the world seven times in the wink of eye. 
>    Scientists succeeded in slowing it down to 38 
> mph. 
>    They did this by shooting a laser through 
> extremely cold sodium atoms, which worked 
> like "optical molasses" to slow the light down. 
> 
> Practical Applications 
> While slow-speed light now is just a laboratory 
> plaything for top physicists, Lene Vesergaard 
> Hau, the Danish scientist who led the project, 
> said practical applications could be a few years 
> away. She envisions improved communications 
> technology, switches, even night-vision 
> devices. 
>    The atoms were contained in what is called 
> a Bose-Einstein condensate, a condition 
> created when matter is cooled almost to 
> absolute zero, the lowest temperature 
> theoretically possible. That's 459.67 degrees 
> below zero. 
>    "We have really created an optical medium 
> with crazy, bizarre properties," Hau said. 
> "Everybody knows that light is something that 
> goes incredibly fast. If you could possibly slow it 
> down to a real human dimension. That was 
> really fantastic." 
>     The research, conducted at the Rowland 
> Institute for Science in Cambridge and 
> Harvard University, was described in 
> Thursday's issue of the journal Nature. 
> 
> 
> 
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 21 02:21:34 1999
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Anyone have any answers to this ??
Thanks for help....steve
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Hello friends

Without any payment to anybody (cynical)I seeking for the brigth way to
made a flowmesurement at at a tube.
Use today a method of pitot-tube system.  Working good at tubes between
1000 mm and 300 mm.
Over 1000 mm the pitot start wobbling and soner or later (sooner)brakes of.
Less than 300 mm its hard to make a flow   pressure curve and find the
point of medium waterspeed over the surface. At the 900 mm tube in our
testsite we have find out: pitot point in middle of the tube, waterspeed
(v) x 0,82 will give a medium speed over the tube hydralic surface.
Onother problem is long plastic hoses (laboratoriumhoses, 12 mm
transparent) will catch air and therfore give wrong mesurments. From time
to time in a testrunn you have to runn over all the hoses to find pockets
of trapped air, and the move the bubble to messurments sling.
Onother problem is when we runn the test and increas Q over 1 m/sec the
waterstreem start to make a axial longwave rotation wich is giving a
fluctated messure at the messurmentsling (point) It will jump up and down,
up to 10 mm different, and its hard to catch the exact messure. That will
means I have to do lot of messures and try to find out a medium-point.
We follow the minimum equirements as messuringpoint more than 20
tub-diametrs from tubeintake to avoid bad streaming water.

I will be happy to find anybody in our sybespace group to talk about this.

Messurments methods and know how in this area is a week point. It is
needings to find out smart system and spread them to all who spend time and
monye to make small turbines. It is hard to improve if you dont know where
you shall improve.

So, lets have a fruitfull talk about messuring oure smart constructions.

Welcome!
Yours
Peter

PS When we have found the sullotion of tubes we can go to chanels and open
flume construction.



Peter Ruyter
Cargo&Kraft Turbin AB
S-739 92 SKINNSKATTEBERG
SWEDEN
T: +46 222 280 80
F: +46 222 280 79
turbin cargo-kraft.se
www.cargo-kraft.se

Vivas, Crescas, Floreas!



------------------------------------------------------------------------
eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/microhydro
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 21 04:35:12 1999
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re; Mills vs Saha?
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 05:33:03 -0700
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To: Vortex

The Saha Equation:

Log10(Ni^2/No)= -5040*(Vi/T)+1.5*Log10T+15.385

where Ni is the number of Hydrogen ions and Vi is the hydrogen ionization
energy (13.6 ev)

and the Saha "modified" for H2 Dissociation:

Log10(nH^2/nH2)= -5040*(Vd/T)+1.5*Log10T+15.385

where nH is the number of hydrogen atoms created at temperature (T)and Vd is
the hydrogen dissociation energy (4.53 ev) establishes what should happen to
hydrogen at a given temperature.
The ionization energy (Vi)of Lithium, Sodium, and Potassium and the
dissociation energy (Vd)of Hydrogen:
Li 5.50 ev,   Na 5.14 ev, K 4.34 ev, and the dissociation energy of
hydrogen, 4.53 ev.

Since water auto-ionizes to H+ + OH- and ionic salts hydolyze in water to K+
+ OH- etc.,Nature has already provided the ionization energy.

However, in a gas of H2, and solids containing K or such, high temperatures
are required to effect the ionization and dissociation.

Then H2 + heat ---> 2 H

2 H + heat ---> 2 H+ + 2e-

Then, 2 H+ + 2 K ---> 2 H + 2 K+ since the 13.6 ev ionization potential of
hydrogen can steal the 4.34 ev electron from the potassium with 9.26 ev to
spare. Not Vice-Versa.

Have fun. :-)

Regards,  Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 21 09:50:30 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: thermocouples
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:27:25 -0500
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Scott,

you wrote
> 
> If you wire the TC's in series, you'll be very close to a Seebeck
envelope,
> which does properly handle the hot/cold regions.  However, you need to
> surround the SS mass with a highly uniform thermal path to "ground" (the
> outside enclosure actively maintained at constant T) so each TC's delta-T
> will have the proper "weight".  In a more-or-less open chamber full of
air,
> I don't think you'll get acceptable results due to convection currents.
> Maybe if you circulate the air with a fan...
> 
Yes, the air would be very well circulated and I plan to strap the
thermocouples against the stainless surface with a soft copper strip.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc., P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
voice: (603) 226-4822    fax: (603) 224-5975    
website: www.infinite-energy.com

"I believe it is better to learn what is probable about important matters
than to be certain about trival ones."
Ian Stevenson

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 21 13:26:50 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Re; Mills vs Saha?
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:25:12 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Sun, 21 Feb 1999 05:33:03 -0700, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>The ionization energy (Vi)of Lithium, Sodium, and Potassium and the
>dissociation energy (Vd)of Hydrogen:
>Li 5.50 ev,   Na 5.14 ev, K 4.34 ev, and the dissociation energy of
>hydrogen, 4.53 ev.
>
>Since water auto-ionizes to H+ + OH- and ionic salts hydolyze in water to K+
>+ OH- etc.,Nature has already provided the ionization energy.
>
>However, in a gas of H2, and solids containing K or such, high temperatures
>are required to effect the ionization and dissociation.
>
>Then H2 + heat ---> 2 H
>
>2 H + heat ---> 2 H+ + 2e-
>
>Then, 2 H+ + 2 K ---> 2 H + 2 K+ since the 13.6 ev ionization potential of
>hydrogen can steal the 4.34 ev electron from the potassium with 9.26 ev to
>spare. Not Vice-Versa.
[snip]
I thought that Mills' original gas experiment (the one that Scott
attempted to replicate) relied on K+ ions from the vapour of a molten
salt. However upon thinking about it, it seems to me more likely that
the salt would vaporise as molecules (e.g. KCl - or whatever the anion
was) rather than as ions. This means that the filament would also need
to supply the energy to split the molecule, and keep it split (the
latter not very likely). Hence K+ ions would probably only exist in a
very small volume around the filament. Perhaps too small to produce any
noticeable effect.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: Re; Mills vs Saha?


Robin wrote:

>I thought that Mills' original gas experiment (the one that Scott
>attempted to replicate) relied on K+ ions from the vapour of a molten
>salt. However upon thinking about it, it seems to me more likely that
>the salt would vaporise as molecules (e.g. KCl - or whatever the anion
>was) rather than as ions.

Exactly. The KNOx at the melting point (with a very low vapor pressure)would
react with the H2 and end up as KOH which melts around 350 C or so again
with a very low vapor pressure. Some KOH might get over to the filament
forming WOx and some K might get to the filament where it can be ionized by
contact or emission electron
bombardment etc.

Potassium metal would be a much better choice. :-)
>
>This means that the filament would also need
>to supply the energy to split the molecule, and keep it split (the
>latter not very likely). Hence K+ ions would probably only exist in a
>very small volume around the filament. Perhaps too small to produce any
>noticeable effect.

Agreed. Posted as a smoke-screen perhaps?

A small 120 volt A.C. "disharge tube" patterned
after the NE-2s (about 4 Torr)in a metal "can" with a bit of Potassium and a
ballast resistor (40 watt lightbulb?) would be a better experiment.

Regards,  Frederick
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 21 23:23:48 1999
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: thermocouples
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Ed Wall  wrote:
 
[snip]
>I think I know the answer to the question of whether a signal from a
>parallel combination of thermocouples is repeatable is clearly "yes." 

I think the answer is "yes" in theory but may be "no" in practice. The
measurement will be repeatable only if all the joint resistances are
repeatable. If you weld or solder the joints, then you will have
repeatability. Otherwise, not. 

More generally, your approach is not good, because you will not be
measuring heat, but only a group of temperatures that are probably
only loosly related to the heat. (because Case's experiment is prone
to convection both inside and outside the chamber.) In a calorimeter
one also measures temperatures, but the calorimeter design tries to
relate the temperatures closely to heat. Heat is the product you (and
I and all of us) want, so you should measure heat.

==
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 22 00:04:26 1999
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Subject: Re: R&D
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Hi;

See quote below:



Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html


Concentric Tori
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/GoldCTori_A.JPG


Circle Of Fire - Dreamland - VR Avatars! Great Fun!
http://www.artbellchatclub.com


I thought you might enjoy the following Bucky Fuller quote. I really like
it. I think it's beautiful.

________________________________________

When I am working on a problem,
I never think about beauty.
I only think of how to solve the problem.
But when I have finished,
if the solution is not beautiful,
I know it is wrong.

-R. Buckminster Fuller-



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 22 04:44:48 1999
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Subject: Re: Neutrino Gas?
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To: Vortex

Going by the "Classical Radius" for Leptons:

R = kq^2/E = 2.305E-28/E the radius of a 0.5 ev Neutrino or Antineutrino
("at rest")should be about 28 angstroms.

Kind of hard to squeeze in between the atoms of solids or liquids where the
spacing between atoms is about 2.0  to 3.0 angstroms. Unless they are
"String Circles" that fit over groups of molecules/atoms like a hoop.  :-)

Their "thermal" velocity 1/2 mv^2 = kT based on a mass of Eo/c^2 ~= 8.88E-37
Kg would be about 10 million meters/second at 300 K as opposed to H2 gas
molecules that have a velocity almost three orders of magnitude less.

Assuming that Neutrinos have somewhat of an electrical affinity for positive
charges, and Antineutrinos have somewhat of an affinity fo negative charges,
and can gain energy from them (nuclei or electrons) during collisions
causing them to shrink in radius,these numbers could vary drastically.  :-)

Perhaps high fields can cause "neutrino oscillations" that can effect
Remediation of
Radioisotopes?

I can see Mills' "Hydrino" from a proton or deuteron capturing a Neutrino
and assuming a net charge q' and thus dropping the coulomb barrier energy; E
= k*q'*q/R and the neutrino carrying off large portions of energy from the
nuclear reaction sans neutrons and/or gammas.

Thus a reaction: D-neutrino + D ---> He4 + neutrino + 24 Mev wouldn't be
hard to accept.

Regards,  Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 22 06:15:07 1999
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:58:35 -0600
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: excess heat #2
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>Return-Path: <deninno frascati.enea.it>
>X-Sender: deninno frascati.enea.it
>Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:22:22 +0100
>To: Scott Little <little eden.com>
>From: Antonella  De Ninno <deninno frascati.enea.it>
>Subject: Re: excess heat #2
>
>
>Dear Dr. Little,
>
>thanks for your interest in my work.
>
>During the last year activity I had  heat excess  from 5 to 10% of the
>input power. This figure is common to several experiments done with thin
>films both on Nickel and polymeric substrates. I observed an increase of
>the absolute  heat excess in case of multiple electrodes even if, in this
>case the total current is higher and then the total input power is higher
>so the percentage remain the same 10% max. The minimum detectable power in
>my arrangement is about 30 mWatt due to the error in thermocouple response.
>Actually it depends on the calibration and ranges from 20 to 40 mWatt.
>
>After the Conference I was mainly interested in increasing the heat excess
>observed. I tried to increase the surface to volume ratio using Palladium
>films produced by electroless deposition on Nickel porous substrates.The
>results were not so clean as in thin Pd films and the percentage of excess
>power was lower than before (2-5%) due to the very high total cell current
>required (up to 1.5 A that is a very small current/cm2 because of the big
>surface of the cathode)  even if the absolute excess reached some time 1000
>mWatt.
> 
>Then we had problems in rearranging the laboratory so the statistic of the
>experiment of the last months is very poor . Furthermore, the experiments
>with multiple cathodes turned out to be very difficult because of the
>impossibility to evaluate exacly the current distribution inside the cell
>without a reference electrode. I plan to start once more with this kind of
>experiments, increasing the the control on the experimental parameters.
>
>I hope that this give an answer to your questions. In any case I am
>available for further discussions.
>
>Sincerely
>
>Antonella De Ninno
>
>
>At 11.59 17/02/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>Dear Dr. De Ninno,
>>
>>Thanks to Jed Rothwell, I now have read your second ICCF-7 paper which
>>discusses your excess heat results!  
>>
>>Can you tell me what was the total input power when you observed 100-200
>>millwatts of excess heat?  In other words, I would like to know the
>>signal/background ratio for these observations.
>>
>>Since ICCF-7, have you succeeded in observing higher levels of excess heat? 
>>
>>Thanks in advance.
>>
>>
>>
>>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
>>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
>>
>
>

Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 22 13:28:19 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: thermocouples
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:29:46 -0500
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> Why not wait for equilibrium?
> Hank


The plan is to control the thermal gradient across the catalyst by means of
the air temperature and the heat put into the the container and the
thickness of the catlyst.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc., P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
voice: (603) 226-4822    fax: (603) 224-5975    
website: www.infinite-energy.com

"I believe it is better to learn what is probable about important matters
than to be certain about trival ones."
Ian Stevenson

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 22 13:36:02 1999
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Subject: RE: thermocouples
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Why not wait for equilibrium?
Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Ed Wall[SMTP:ewall infinite-energy.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Saturday, February 20, 1999 12:42 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: thermocouples
> 
> Bob write:
> > 
> > Please believe me that the circuit I described is a reasonable way to
> sum
> two
> > analog signals.
> 
> I never doubted you for a moment, Bob.  I have no need to sum signals.
> 
> > BTW, a friend of mine whom some of you know suggested another
> interesting
> > possibility with paralleling two thermocouples reading different
> temperatures.
> > The resulting current could cause a peltier effect and cool one of the
> > junctions.  Maybe if you put them in parallel they would both stabilize
> at the
> > same temperature.  Good problem for physics 101.
> 
> The network of thermocouples, all in parallel can indeed develop cooling
> at
> the junction of one or more thermocouples.  That would cool the object
> being measured, but not as much as the extraction of heat that is done by
> all of the thermocouple junctions in contact with the object being
> measured
> (the electric potential energy does come from heat energy), which is
> negligable or it would be a mistake to use thermocouples.
> 
> What I am doing is building a calorimeter with a large stainless steel
> thermal mass in the center of a temperature regulated chamber full of air.
> 
> The source of unknown heat, along with a joule heater of known power, are
> contained within the stainless steel object.  The difficulty of measuring
> the temperature of the stainless comes from its poor heat conduction.  It
> will have hot and cold regions.  So, a representative temperature of the
> object is difficult to obtain.  If a large number of thermocouple
> junctions
> are pressed against the outside surface of the object, held in place by a
> copper strip, the average signal of those thermocouples would be
> representative of the average temperature of the entire object.  I think
> that a good degree of repeatability can be had this way.
> 
> Please note that I am not trying to measure the actual temperature of the
> object.  I wish to calibrate the signal thus obtained against the energy
> into the Joule heater.  
> 
> Ed
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 22 17:20:28 1999
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Subject: Re: Neutrino Quasineutrons vs Mills'  "Fractional Orbit Hydrinos"
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To: Vortex

If a fractionally charged Lepton/Neutrino "steals" an orbit close to the
ground state (5.29E-11 meter) Bohr orbit, it could leave a residual net
charge that would also allow the displaced electron to form a particle that
would act as a negative ion H-.

The "centrifugal" force Fc = Mo[(E/Eo)+1]/R equal the electrostatic Force
Fes = K*q'*q/R^2.

Assuming that 13.6 ev is given off as a photon, and there is 13.6 ev given
as orbital kinetic energy to the neutrino with a rest energy of 0.5 ev:

Mrel = Mo[(13.6/.5)+1 = 28.2 * 0.5*1.6E-19/c^2
= 2.5E-35 kg.

Then R = k*q'*q/Mrel*c^2 = 1.02E-11 meters or about 1/5th the ground state
Bohr Radius,if q' is 0.1*q or 1.6E-20 coulombs.

I wonder if a mass spectrometer would pick this up?

Regards,   Frederick




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 22 19:31:48 1999
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From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech ix.netcom.com>
Subject: A Prayer for Good
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Hi;

Please pray for the good health and well being of a man whose work truely
deserves admiration and respect. May the revelation of the absolute truth
and ultimate nature of Mr. Hudson's circumstances find it's proper course.

Dennis



>Dear Mr. Hudson;
>
>I hope you are doing well. My email address is atech ix.netcom.com. I
looked on aol but your name was not listed. If you are still on line, please
send me your address. I would like to share my experiences in helping to
determine housing issues of the art community I live at. Three days ago I
thought there was no hope of keeping our community together due to the
prepayment of the 1% government loan on our building by the landlord. Two
days ago, I realized a key paragraph in one of the documents from hundreds
of hours of research performed on building related contracts over the last
three years. Yesterday I was planning to build a home in Western MA. Today,
I realized that bringing the rest of the artists along with to build and
inhabit a new art community may be possible due to the implications of the
said clause. Could this be a property of the nature of a miracle? Just
before things turn out wonderfully, life appears less than hopeful. The work
you have accomplished is miraculous in and of itself. You are in the midst
of a miracle so I know things will ultimately work out for you and your best
interest. I pray for God to be with you and to protect you.
>
>Best Regards;
>Dennis




Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html


Concentric Tori
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/GoldCTori_A.JPG


Circle Of Fire - Dreamland - VR Avatars! Great Fun!
http://www.artbellchatclub.com


________________________________________

When I am working on a problem,
I never think about beauty.
I only think of how to solve the problem.
But when I have finished,
if the solution is not beautiful,
I know it is wrong.

-R. Buckminster Fuller-



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 22 20:03:43 1999
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In a message dated 2/17/99 11:23:36 AM, mica world.std.com writes:

<< Second, BTW you did not respond to 
the ? re: energy density, >>

Wheeler calculates it to be the equivalent of 10exp94 gms/cubic-cm.  Multiply
by c-squared and you have the energy density.  See "Gravitation," by Misner,
Thorne and Wheeler.

Hal

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Feb 22 20:15:25 1999
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In a message dated 2/18/99 8:02:20 PM, BriggsRO aol.com writes:

<< Let's be thankful for zero-point field.  Who wants all his atoms to
collapse? 

Seriously, need to get into the learning mode.  Is there a primer?
 >>

August 1985 article in Scientific American magazine by Boyer is a good place
to start - a very readable article.

Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 23 08:54:30 1999
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In a message dated 2/22/99 8:14:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, Puthoff aol.com
writes:

<< August 1985 article in Scientific American magazine by Boyer is a good
place
 to start - a very readable article.
  >>
Thank Hal,  

Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 23 09:00:21 1999
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Hi all,

Beside it is a very important discovery, its allow to measure many property of the light and see whether it obeys the proposed laws:

1) Supposed that light is travelled greater than microscopic range in sodium, it is very easy to see how the light is fall under gravity exactly as a stone thrown at 17m/s.

2) What will be the equation E=mc^2?
   Assuming energy is conserved mass of the light is increase by 
   (1.7647059e7)^2 = 3.11418685e14 times for a given energy.
   3e14 is a big factor and it may allow to measure weight of the light    directly by a balance.

3) Momentum of the light is increased also, and one can apply a force by a light beam is it was like a water jet at 17m/s velocity.

>From PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE (http://www.aip.org/physnews/update/)

>
>The researchers also observed unprecedentedly large intensity-dependent >light transmission.  Such an extreme nonlinear effect can perhaps be
> used in a number of opto-electronic components (switches,memory, delay 
> lines) and in converting light from one wavelength to another.  (Hau
> et al., Nature, 18 February 1999.)

This is ironic. Now the light exhibit very large nonlinear effects at low energy (infrared compared to gamma ray) which is fundamental to pair creation and to other controversial nature of electromagnetic waves. And this issue is dismissed on the press re

lease. Actually a major mystery of the nature is going be discovered (how the matter is build) and author talking about new electronic components to be used on computer. This is typical. The only purpose/motivation of the physical sciences is (reduced) to

 build faster computers. (maybe public expectation from physics sciences is reduced to this, we dont need or have to expect to find alternate energy sources, FTL communication and gravitational modifications, these are too much!)

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 23 14:32:22 1999
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Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:27:22 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Conte Success
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At 07:04 2/20/99 -0900, you wrote:

>Yesterday my I.E. #23 arrived.  There is a surprising article on page 67 by
>Ilio Conte and Maria Pierlice.

We got our copy a couple of days ago and, yes, this experiment is just
plain astounding...in several ways.

The first thing that strikes me is the low activity of the Sr-90 source.
2.39 KBq is only 2390 disintegrations/sec...i.e. 65 nanoCuries.  To put
that in perspective, the 1 uCi Am-241 in your smoke detector is 15 times
more active!

Second, he estimates the geometry of the 1mm^3 block of Al for the betas
coming from the 20mm dia source to be 2*PI!!!...i.e. that means he thinks
that HALF of the betas emitted by the source, located outside the cell,
will strike the 1mm Al cube which is located inside the cell. Even if he
crowds the anode-cathode assy up against one wall and gets the source, say,
1 cm away from the Al cube, the best geometry he could hope for is in the
neighborhood of 0.01 steradians...600 times less than his estimate.

Third, I figure that, with the 0.01 solid angle, he would have at most only
one close encounter between a beta and a proton every 2 hours or so in his
Al cube and that's being generous and assuming a 1:1 H/Al loading.

The last point doesn't really mean anything, except to accentuate how
anomalous his observation is that the Al block melts only when the betas
are hitting it!!!



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 23 15:17:01 1999
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Hi,

I had registered these domain names two months ago:

superluminal.cx, zeropoint.cx and few other physics related names.

If anybody interested to own them or use them please write me.
For more information goto www.nic.cx

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Feb 23 23:30:53 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Conte Success
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At 4:27 PM 2/23/99, Scott Little wrote:
>At 07:04 2/20/99 -0900, you wrote:
>
>>Yesterday my I.E. #23 arrived.  There is a surprising article on page 67 by
>>Ilio Conte and Maria Pierlice.

Darn typos!  His name is Elio Conte.  Sorry.

>
>We got our copy a couple of days ago...


Gee, I seem to either get mine right away or a month late.  Must be
determined by whether it comes by air or by barge - which is at the post
office's option.


> and, yes, this experiment is just
>plain astounding...in several ways.
>
>The first thing that strikes me is the low activity of the Sr-90 source.
>2.39 KBq is only 2390 disintegrations/sec...i.e. 65 nanoCuries.  To put
>that in perspective, the 1 uCi Am-241 in your smoke detector is 15 times
>more active!


He states that "the electron beam was collimated in order to directly hit
the surface of the aluminum cathode with a geometry estimated to be 2 Pi at
a good approximation."  I suppose this means the 2390 count applies only to
the *beam* and not the radioactive source.  Things make more sense if that
is assumed.


>
>Second, he estimates the geometry of the 1mm^3 block of Al for the betas
>coming from the 20mm dia source to be 2*PI!!!...i.e. that means he thinks
>that HALF of the betas emitted by the source, located outside the cell,
>will strike the 1mm Al cube which is located inside the cell. Even if he
>crowds the anode-cathode assy up against one wall and gets the source, say,
>1 cm away from the Al cube, the best geometry he could hope for is in the
>neighborhood of 0.01 steradians...600 times less than his estimate.


If the beam is nearly straight and with cross section twice that of the
cathode then the 2 Pi estimate might be about right.


>
>Third, I figure that, with the 0.01 solid angle, he would have at most only
>one close encounter between a beta and a proton every 2 hours or so in his
>Al cube and that's being generous and assuming a 1:1 H/Al loading.

This may not be based upon the right model.  Aluminum may load in a way
that creates large bose condensates in bubble like volumes.  Recall the
work of kamada et al on proton bombarded Al targets?  Different approach,
but maybe similar results with regard to the hydrogen?


>
>The last point doesn't really mean anything, except to accentuate how
>anomalous his observation is that the Al block melts only when the betas
>are hitting it!!!


This experiment just screams for replication.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 03:33:11 1999
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Date: Wed, 24 Feb 99 06:32:57 -0000
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>This experiment just screams for replication.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          

INDEED,  that is exactly why we published it and why this experiment was 
given advance notice in Issue #22. I hope that Scott and others will try 
the experiment. There will be much more on Conte -- beyond this 
particular experiment coming in IE#24.

Best,

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

Ph:  603-228-4516
Fax: 603-224-5975

  editor infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 03:33:24 1999
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>We got our copy a couple of days ago and, yes, this experiment is just
>plain astounding...in several ways.

Yes, it is,  and that's why we published it.  I hope you try your expert 
hand at it.  If this experiment is reproduced, I predict rapid 
dissemination of the news and it will become an iron clad irrefutable 
experiment that confirms aspects and potential mechanisms in CF.

Good luck!

Gene

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

Ph:  603-228-4516
Fax: 603-224-5975

  editor infinite-energy.com

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Bounced message, forwarded by moderator

  (Tom, your mail comes from claytor lanl.gov, yet you are subscribed as
  Claytor_t_n lanl.gov.   Shall I fix this, or is it intentional?)


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:49:01 -0800
From: Thomas Claytor <claytor lanl.gov>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Conte Success

I'm betting the 2.39 KBq is a typo. I looked at that and wondered where he
got such a weak source. Usually these beta check sources are on the order
of  micro curies. 
Tom.


At 04:27 PM 2/23/99 -0600, you wrote:
>At 07:04 2/20/99 -0900, you wrote:
>
>>Yesterday my I.E. #23 arrived.  There is a surprising article on page 67 by
>>Ilio Conte and Maria Pierlice.
>
>We got our copy a couple of days ago and, yes, this experiment is just
>plain astounding...in several ways.
>
>The first thing that strikes me is the low activity of the Sr-90 source.
>2.39 KBq is only 2390 disintegrations/sec...i.e. 65 nanoCuries.  To put
>that in perspective, the 1 uCi Am-241 in your smoke detector is 15 times
>more active!
>
>Second, he estimates the geometry of the 1mm^3 block of Al for the betas
>coming from the 20mm dia source to be 2*PI!!!...i.e. that means he thinks
>that HALF of the betas emitted by the source, located outside the cell,
>will strike the 1mm Al cube which is located inside the cell. Even if he
>crowds the anode-cathode assy up against one wall and gets the source, say,
>1 cm away from the Al cube, the best geometry he could hope for is in the
>neighborhood of 0.01 steradians...600 times less than his estimate.
>
>Third, I figure that, with the 0.01 solid angle, he would have at most only
>one close encounter between a beta and a proton every 2 hours or so in his
>Al cube and that's being generous and assuming a 1:1 H/Al loading.
>
>The last point doesn't really mean anything, except to accentuate how
>anomalous his observation is that the Al block melts only when the betas
>are hitting it!!!
>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 06:27:40 1999
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To: conte teseo.it
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Dear Dr. Conte,

I read with interest about your recent experiments in the latest issue of
Infinite Energy magazine.  I am seriously considering replicating your
experiment but I have many questions:

1.  What do you mean by a "d.d.p. of 12 volts"?  Was the cell always
operated at a constant current of 100 mA?

2. Was the anode-cathode assembly located in the center of the cubical cell?

3. Is the Sr-90 source activity really 2.39 kiloBecquerels?  That is a very
low activity!

4. Please describe the physical arrangement of the
source-cathode-collimator geometry in detail.  I would like to know all the
dimensions so I can duplicate them.

5. Please describe the melting of the Al cathode in detail.  Since it was
immersed in electrolyte, you must have observed vigorous boiling of the
electrolyte near the cathode when it was melting.  Did the molten Al fall
to the bottom of the cell...or remain attached to the Pt wire?

6. Did you insulate the Pt wire leading to the Al cube?

7. Please describe the procedures used in the experiment and the observed
sequence of events.  Was the 100 mA current applied suddenly or gradually?
Did the neutrons appear instantly upon application of the electrolysis
current.  Did the Al cathode melt promptly upon bringing up the Sr-90
source?  etc. etc.

I appreciate your time in answering these questions.  If you have any
additional information that you feel is important for replication of your
experiment, I urge you to provide it.

Thank you,



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 06:27:42 1999
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At 22:40 2/23/99 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:

>He states that "the electron beam was collimated in order to directly hit
>the surface of the aluminum cathode with a geometry estimated to be 2 Pi at
>a good approximation."  I suppose this means the 2390 count applies only to
>the *beam* and not the radioactive source.  Things make more sense if that
>is assumed.

That would REALLY be unconventional.  When one speaks of the activity of
radioisotope sources it is always the total contained activity.  That's how
the  stuff is regulated, priced, etc.  What you get out of it is a separate
matter that can vary enormously depending upon source construction, window
thickness (if any) etc.

I'll ask him...will copy the group.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 06:29:26 1999
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At 05:30 2/24/99 -0800, William Beaty wrote:
>  (Tom, your mail comes from claytor lanl.gov, yet you are subscribed as
>  Claytor_t_n lanl.gov.   Shall I fix this, or is it intentional?)

>From: Thomas Claytor <claytor lanl.gov>
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Conte Success
>
>I'm betting the 2.39 KBq is a typo. I looked at that and wondered where he
>got such a weak source. Usually these beta check sources are on the order
>of  micro curies. 
>Tom.

This is a likely explanation.  At the end of the article, he says that the
2.4 KBq source will produce a flux of 2.4E5 electrons/(cm^2*sec)!  Kinda
hard to get 10^5 electrons per second out of a 10^3 Bq source, isn't it.
Hmmm! because of the Y-90 equilibrium you do get TWO betas per Sr-90
disintegration, don't you?





Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 07:18:20 1999
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-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: Conte Success (fwd fm Claytor)

Scott wrote:
>
>This is a likely explanation.  At the end of the article, he says that the
>2.4 KBq source will produce a flux of 2.4E5 electrons/(cm^2*sec)!  Kinda
>hard to get 10^5 electrons per second out of a 10^3 Bq source, isn't it.
>Hmmm! because of the Y-90 equilibrium you do get TWO betas per Sr-90
>disintegration, don't you?

Yes, and the Y-90 betas are 2.28 Mev which can easily knock a neutron (2.23
Mev binding energy) off of the 1.0E19 Deuterons/cm^3 that are in the
ordinary water of the cell, create a 2.28 Mev x-ray that will. Not to
mention low energy Deuterium Stripping reactions.

Deuterium is used as a neutron source for this reason.

Regards,  Frederick
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 07:32:02 1999
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Subject: Bill B. on Lauralee show this Friday nite
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http://www.amasci.com/llcast.html

For anyone who'd like to listen in, I'll be a guest on a "radio show" this
friday.  NOT radio, but an internet realaudio webcast.  This is the Laura
Lee Alternative Sci/health show.  Topics attached below, or see:

  See: http://www.amasci.com/llcast.html

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

   
   TOPICS:

     * Current status of the "Hum"
       
     * Russian discoveries: Torsion Fields (Axion particles)
       
     * An old build-it project: binding-force anomaly detector,
       Other projects...
       
     * Report your Unusual Phenomena
       Also: Electric Humans
       
     * Free energy discussion, also devices.
          + Prometheus Game
          + Rules for Weird Inventions
       
     * Cold Fusion

     * I've joined the Skeptics!
       
     * Contemporary Science Heresies
          + Anti-closedminded Ammunition!
          + Whistleblower protection
          + Truzzi & others
          + Computer games show flaws of Darwinism
       
     * ANTIGRAVITY
       
     * BALL LIGHTNING
       
     * UPCOMING CONFERENCES.
          + EXOTIC RESEARCH in Seattle March 25-28
          + SSE 18th Annual Meeting, June 3-5 Albuquerque NM

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 07:37:32 1999
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Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:42:56 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Conte Success
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At 8:03 AM 2/24/99, Scott Little wrote:
>At 22:40 2/23/99 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>He states that "the electron beam was collimated in order to directly hit
>>the surface of the aluminum cathode with a geometry estimated to be 2 Pi at
>>a good approximation."  I suppose this means the 2390 count applies only to
>>the *beam* and not the radioactive source.  Things make more sense if that
>>is assumed.
>
>That would REALLY be unconventional.

Yes.  However, if the 2.39 KBq is a typo it is strange it is repeated as
2..4 KBq on the second page of the article.


>When one speaks of the activity of
>radioisotope sources it is always the total contained activity.  That's how
>the  stuff is regulated, priced, etc.  What you get out of it is a separate
>matter that can vary enormously depending upon source construction, window
>thickness (if any) etc.
>
>I'll ask him...will copy the group.


It will be interesting the response, especially to the cathode melting
question.  In other similar experiments a SEM was required to detect the
melting because it occurred only in the vicinity of localized hydrogen
concentrations in the lattice.  If he got a macro effect that would be
something very new, I think.  The cathode is only a 1 mm cube, so it seems
reasonable the effect is most likely at least microscopic.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: Conte Success (fwd fm Claytor)
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At 8:15 AM 2/24/99, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
>Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 7:29 AM
>Subject: Re: Conte Success (fwd fm Claytor)
>
>Scott wrote:
>>
>>This is a likely explanation.  At the end of the article, he says that the
>>2.4 KBq source will produce a flux of 2.4E5 electrons/(cm^2*sec)!  Kinda
>>hard to get 10^5 electrons per second out of a 10^3 Bq source, isn't it.
>>Hmmm! because of the Y-90 equilibrium you do get TWO betas per Sr-90
>>disintegration, don't you?
>
>Yes, and the Y-90 betas are 2.28 Mev which can easily knock a neutron (2.23
>Mev binding energy) off of the 1.0E19 Deuterons/cm^3 that are in the
>ordinary water of the cell, create a 2.28 Mev x-ray that will. Not to
>mention low energy Deuterium Stripping reactions.
>
>Deuterium is used as a neutron source for this reason.

Yes. As noted earlier - the article does not spell out in much detail any
care taken to measure neutron counts in a pre-electrolysis state, the most
important control information.  It does say the neutron counts only occur
when the radioactive source is present.  It would have been nice to see
neutron counts as a function of time after electrolysis current on, but
with the collimated beam always present.  It would be comforting to clearly
see that the counts are not from emissions coming directly or indirectly
from the source material.  Showing that the neutron counts are a function
of H loading would accomplish that.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Conte Success (fwd fm Claytor)
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At 8:15 AM 2/24/99, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>Yes, and the Y-90 betas are 2.28 Mev which can easily knock a neutron (2.23
>Mev binding energy) off of the 1.0E19 Deuterons/cm^3 that are in the
>ordinary water of the cell, create a 2.28 Mev x-ray that will. Not to
>mention low energy Deuterium Stripping reactions.
>
>Deuterium is used as a neutron source for this reason.

It just occurred to me that showing that the neutron counts are a function
of H loading would defeat Conte's theory of p + e -> n, at least as a
direct reaction, because it would show a requirement for involvement of the
lattice as catalyst.  It would be interesting if stripping were shown to be
more likely in a metal lattice than in water!  Further, to show Conte's QM
based premise p + e -> n, it would seem that plain water would do just
fine.  Why the need for an Al cathode?   Conte previously had some success
bombarding plastic targets with an electron beam, so the H concentration in
water should be plenty sufficient to get similar results.  It is
interesting that your observation about stripping deuterons should apply
equally well to plastic targets, Fred.

The most interesting aspect to the report is repeatability.  If that is
correct, and the repeatability can be extended to replicated experiments,
all questions about the experiment should be answerable fairly qickly.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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To: Vortex

The insolation of Solar (electron)Neutrinos at a rest energy of 0.5 ev or
less amounts to about a kilogram/year (1.2E36/year)for the Earth.

If they are prone to being pushed around by atmospheric atoms/molecules, it
might be prudent to take measures to concentrate them. :-)

Note that in the cavitation and sonoluminescence phenomena over-deaeration
and the lack of protons from carbonic acid H2CO3 lowers the luminesence
phenomena.

Since there should be at least 2.7E25 neutrinos/meter^3 in the atmosphere at
STP, it might be prudent to pressurize the F&P/CETI cells with a tire pump,
so Jed can see those
kilowatt energy ROI results again.

Likewise for Scott's "secret ingredient" in the water (plus a potassium
salt) for the Griggs/Potapov ou experiments.

Regards,  Frederick

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From: "Richard T. Murray" <rmforall earthlink.net>
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Feb. 24, 1999    Hello Frederick Sparber,   About all those Earth bound
neutrinos,  what might be their velocity distribution -- less than escape
velocity?  Would they have any nuclear reactions?  What would be their mass per
m**3?  Would they notice any difference between air and earth?  Would they
gradually loss enough energy to accumulate in the center of Earth?     Rather a
ghostly presence, I imagine.    Regards,  Rich Murray


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 11:08:56 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: more Fusor
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We've taken the next step in Fusor construction.  Still no neutrons (I
think) but plenty of x-rays coming out of it.  Details and a big photo
(135k) at:

http://www.eden.com/~little/fusor/bigsys.html



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 11:24:18 1999
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Scott
	Its beautiful. I envy you your job, but its definitely time to start
wearing a radiation badge and a dosage monitor.

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Scott Little[SMTP:little eden.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Wednesday, February 24, 1999 11:06 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	more Fusor
> 
> We've taken the next step in Fusor construction.  Still no neutrons (I
> think) but plenty of x-rays coming out of it.  Details and a big photo
> (135k) at:
> 
> http://www.eden.com/~little/fusor/bigsys.html
> 
> 
> 
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 11:38:06 1999
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Scudder, Henry J wrote:
> 
> Scott
>         Its beautiful. I envy you your job, but its definitely time to start
> wearing a radiation badge and a dosage monitor.

I'll say!  Do they have good badges for newtrons?

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 11:46:14 1999
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-----Original Message-----
From: Richard T. Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 12:07 PM
Subject: neutrinos lolling in earth?

Hello Rich Murray! You wrote:


>Feb. 24, 1999    Hello Frederick Sparber,   About all those Earth bound
>neutrinos,  what might be their velocity distribution -- less than escape
>velocity?

No. Figuring 1/2 mv^2 = kT with a rest mass of 0.5 ev (8.88E-37 kg) at 300
Kelvin they should be "lolling around" at about 10 million meters/second
that's about 3 orders of magnitude greater than the 1.1E4 km/sec Earth
escape velocity

> Would they have any nuclear reactions?

Not the low energy or "sterile" ones, but they might get taken up by a
proton or deuteron and "catalyze" CF/OU reactions:

D-neutrino + D ---> He4 + neutrino, or T + P + neutrino,etc.
What would be their mass per
>m**3?

At 2.7E25/meter^3 (STP) times 8.88E-37 kg = not much. :-)

> Would they notice any difference between air and earth?

At a radius, R = 2.305E-28/E ~= 28 angstroms I would think that they hang
out in the atmosphere, and their concentrations are weather-related, thus
driving OU researchers nuts.  :-)

> Would they
>gradually loss enough energy to accumulate in the center of Earth?

I don't think the "sterile" ones diffuse very far into the Earth. The
Neutrino detector experiments see the Giga-ev ones that penetrate the earth,
though.


>Rather a
>ghostly presence, I imagine.

More like the "Cheshire Cat".

BTW. My Wife is attending a conference in Santa Fe this week,she asked me to
pull up a city map so she could find the La Fonda. I did so,and she took one
look at it and said, "forget it, I'll ask a Cop.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick


    Regards,  Rich Murray
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 12:01:07 1999
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-----Original Message-----
From: Francis J. Stenger <fstenger interlaced.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: more Fusor

Frank Stenger wrote:
>
>I'll say!  Do they have good badges for newtrons?

Newtrons??  :-) OTOH, Boric Acid or Borax soaked T shirts might cut down
Scott's Newtron exposure. The Lead Robes that the doctors wear for the
medical x-ray exams would also be a good investment.

Regards,   Frederick

>
>Frank Stenger
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 12:45:01 1999
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Frederick J Sparber wrote:

> 
> Newtrons??  :-) OTOH, Boric Acid or Borax soaked T shirts might cut down
> Scott's Newtron exposure. The Lead Robes that the doctors wear for the
> medical x-ray exams would also be a good investment.

Hmmm.  Maybe I should trade my aluminum foil hat for Pb!

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 14:13:55 1999
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Frederick J Sparber wrote:
> 
> Frank Stenger wrote:
> >
> >I'll say!  Do they have good badges for newtrons?
> 
> Newtrons??  :-) 

OK, quit making fun of my spelling, Fred - you're as bad as my wife!

Actually, I'm somewhat of an expert in "new-clear" physics and will soon
release evidence for a new-tron with a mass about like a black-eyed pea.

Now, leave me alone.  :-(

Frank S.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 14:46:55 1999
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Subject: Mitchell! (2nd try)
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In the latest issue of New Energy News (Vol 6 No 7 Jan 1999) on p. 11:

"
JET TECHNOLOGY OFFERS EXCESS HEAT UNITS
Courtesy Dr. Mitch Swartz

In a first-of-a-kind, JET Technology, Inc. has mailed an advertising
leaflet announcing the following:
JET Energy Technology sysem use the generation of heat at low temperatures
to deveop electrical energy and other products.  There novel technologies
can develop heat apparently beyond that which is electrically applied, in
an amount ranging from 2 to 400% or more. The peak power levels achieved
with these systems have increased from 1989 (~20 watts per cc palladium) to
levels now approaching two orders of magnitude greater. These high
technology systems are advertised as "Patents Pending." For more
information contact (781) 237-3625, email: mica world.std.com
Web Site: http:..workd.std.com/~mica/jet.html	
"

Please tell us more about this exciting offering, Mitchell.  We would like
to be among the first to obtain one of your excess heat units and verify
its performance!



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 15:11:36 1999
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At 11:21 2/24/99 -0800, Scudder, Henry J wrote:
>Scott
>	Its beautiful. I envy you your job, but its definitely time to start
>wearing a radiation badge and a dosage monitor.

Thanks, and I appreciate the caution.  I do have monitoring equipment and,
with it, I will ensure that I stay well below the "10% limit"...i.e. 10% of
the max allowed exposure.  I am going to purchase some Pd glass for the
viewport ASAP.

That will make me comfortable operating without film badges and, in fact,
will put me within the spirit of the NRC regs which exempt you from
personnel monitoring if you can demonstrate that you are unlikely to get
over the 10% limit.  Strictly speaking, I would probably be "invited" to
apply for an x-ray tube permit if they caught me with this thing.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 15:13:22 1999
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Scott
	Get a pocket dosimeter and reader, for a couple of hundred bucks, so
you can check your everyday dosage. Rocketdyne makes us carry these around,
even if we are doing cabinet radiography where the radaitionlevel is less
then 2mr per hour.

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Scott Little[SMTP:little eden.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Wednesday, February 24, 1999 3:05 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	RE: more Fusor
> 
> At 11:21 2/24/99 -0800, Scudder, Henry J wrote:
> >Scott
> >	Its beautiful. I envy you your job, but its definitely time to start
> >wearing a radiation badge and a dosage monitor.
> 
> Thanks, and I appreciate the caution.  I do have monitoring equipment and,
> with it, I will ensure that I stay well below the "10% limit"...i.e. 10%
> of
> the max allowed exposure.  I am going to purchase some Pd glass for the
> viewport ASAP.
> 
> That will make me comfortable operating without film badges and, in fact,
> will put me within the spirit of the NRC regs which exempt you from
> personnel monitoring if you can demonstrate that you are unlikely to get
> over the 10% limit.  Strictly speaking, I would probably be "invited" to
> apply for an x-ray tube permit if they caught me with this thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 15:21:05 1999
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It sounds like the glass blocked most of the 30Kev photons for you, but any
higher voltage, and if the beam is directed at you could be a real problem.
At 30 Kev, you can still get a bad sunburn.

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Scott Little[SMTP:little eden.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Wednesday, February 24, 1999 3:05 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	RE: more Fusor
> 
> At 11:21 2/24/99 -0800, Scudder, Henry J wrote:
> >Scott
> >	Its beautiful. I envy you your job, but its definitely time to start
> >wearing a radiation badge and a dosage monitor.
> 
> Thanks, and I appreciate the caution.  I do have monitoring equipment and,
> with it, I will ensure that I stay well below the "10% limit"...i.e. 10%
> of
> the max allowed exposure.  I am going to purchase some Pd glass for the
> viewport ASAP.
> 
> That will make me comfortable operating without film badges and, in fact,
> will put me within the spirit of the NRC regs which exempt you from
> personnel monitoring if you can demonstrate that you are unlikely to get
> over the 10% limit.  Strictly speaking, I would probably be "invited" to
> apply for an x-ray tube permit if they caught me with this thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 16:08:21 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Conte Success
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:06:10 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <36d49383.2813767 mail-hub>
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I couldn't but help get the impression on reading this article that the
experiment was more a confirmation of Horace's theory than Conte's.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 17:12:07 1999
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Can your fusor design compete with this,Scott?

http://www.sandia.gov/ip/ch200004.htm

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Phase II Fusor.

http://fusion.ps.uci.edu/beam/introb.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 18:48:54 1999
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Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:44:10 -0500
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Is ZPE(v) is too small to be important?
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At 10:57 PM 2/22/99 EST, Puthoff aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 2/17/99 11:23:36 AM, mica world.std.com writes:
>  << Second, BTW you did not respond to 
>      the ? re: energy density, >>
>
>Wheeler calculates it to be the equivalent of 10exp94 gms/cubic-cm.  Multiply
>by c-squared and you have the energy density.  See "Gravitation," by Misner,
>Thorne and Wheeler.
>Hal


   Hal:

    That  may not be the energy density available, although
it is the term in an equation used to support the ZPE(vac) theory.
It also seems unlikely to be the energy density available
because it is greater than the energy in the universe based upon the
known matter.

    On the other hand, there is certainly enough putatively 
there by your calculation for your calorimeter.   ;-)X

    Best wishes.
        Mitchell Swartz




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 18:52:05 1999
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: JET Energy Technology
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At 11:25 AM 2/19/99 -0600, Scott Little wrote:
>In the latest issue of New Energy News (Vol 6 No 7 Jan 1999) on p. 11:
>  ...
> In a first-of-a-kind, JET Technology, Inc. has mailed an advertising
>leaflet announcing the following:
>JET Energy Technology system use the generation of heat at low temperatures
>to deveop electrical energy and other products.  There novel technologies
>can develop heat apparently beyond that which is electrically applied, in
>an amount ranging from 2 to 400% or more. The peak power levels achieved
>with these systems have increased from 1989 (~20 watts per cc palladium) to
>levels now approaching two orders of magnitude greater. These high
>technology systems are advertised as "Patents Pending." For more
>information contact (781) 237-3625, email: mica world.std.com
>Web Site: http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html	
>"


 Dear Scott:

    The brochure was sent to select people with whom we have 
worked in the past, and/or shared information on this important subject.
The material was actually not for general publication, since the 
work from JET Energy Technology, Inc. is not publically discussed
when it involves either papers before reviewers or research projects 
which are ongoing such as those projects developing
through previously made arrangements.  

 Having said that, since this is for fellow vort-scientists,
a few points should be clarified.

 The JET Energy Technology, Inc. url you (re)posted is wrong.
 The correct URL is located at
    http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html	
   and references, and some data, can be found though links 
there.

    Regarding the power levels:
   The numbers cited were reported in the literature 
and at ICCF-7, including in the following:
Swartz. M., 1997, "Consistency of the Biphasic Nature of Excess Enthalpy 
in Solid State Anomalous Phenomena with the Quasi-1-Dimensional Model 
of Isotope Loading into a Material" Fusion Technology. 31, 63-74.
Swartz. M., 1997, "Biphasic Behavior in Thermal Electrolytic Generators Using 
Nickel Cathodes". lECEC 1997 Proceedings, paper #97009
Swartz, M, 1997, "Noise Measurement in cold fusion systems, 
Journal of New Energy, 2, 2, 56-61. 
Swartz, M, 1998,  "Optimal Operating Point  Characteristics of 
Nickel Light Water Experiments", Proceedings of ICCF-7.

  Larger levels were reported including at the Fall American Nuclear
Society meeting, when methods of obtaining improved outputs 
were discussed.
Swartz, M, 1998, Improved Electrolytic Reactor Performance Using  
pi-Notch System Operation and Gold Anodes, Transactions of the 
American Nuclear Association, Nashville, Tenn 1998 Meeting, 
(ISSN:0003-018X publisher LaGrange, Ill) 78, 84-85.

  Other references on cold fusion are at
     http://world.std.com/~mica/jetrefs.html 
and http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrefs.html
    
 Thank you for your interest.
        Best wishes.

           Dr. Mitchell Swartz
           JET Energy Technology, Inc.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 21:08:25 1999
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From: Runozwritu aol.com
Message-ID: <f205f923.36d4d946 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:01:58 EST
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Greetings,
	I am new to the List, so I will introduce myself.  I am an Electronics
Failure Analyst, working for a contract manufacturer of PCAs, (Printed Circuit
Assemblies).  We build boards for many major companies, including HP, CISCO,
and others.  I consider myself to still be a young student of electronics,
(everytime I think I know something, I pickup another book which clearly
indicates that I don't know much at all!)
	Bill Beaty suggested that I contact this list with my questions concerning a
particular project.  Please email any replies directly to me for the time
being.
	Having read Bob Shannon's article on the Scalar Gradiometer device,  
<A HREF="http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/grado.html">Weird Science (Bill Beaty's
Homepages)</A>, I am considering the project.  As Bill suggested, I am asking
any who have actually experimented with this device to contact me with your
observations.  I am also interested in learning exactly what a 'gradiometer'
is, (I don't recall the term from my studies).  All comments are invited.
	Thanks to you all.

	Best Regards,
	Runozwritu

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Feb 24 22:12:43 1999
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Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:11:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: more Fusor
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Beautiful construction, Scott. It looks like a plasma experiment :-)

Yes, ions escape from the large holes in the main grid. Miley's other
development project (besides using electrostatic confinement to make a
neutron source) is to make high specific impulse space thrusters. He
makes the grid so that it is preferentially leaky in one direction, so
almost no ions escape in any other direction. 
==
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Elusive little devils, aren't they?

http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 25 06:00:59 1999
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Subject: Re: The SNO Homepage (http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/)
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At 02:45 2/25/99 -0700, Fred wrote:

>Elusive little devils, aren't they?

Expensive tastes, too!

>The SNO detector uses 1000 tonnes of heavy water, on loan from Atomic
>Energy of Canada Limited (AECL),

Small wonder it's "on loan"! That's ~400 million dollars worth if purchased
in 1 liter bottles.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 25 08:17:57 1999
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Subject: The SNO Detector (http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/public/sno2.html)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:14:00 -0700
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Note the reaction: ne + D ---> P + P + e- + ne
This CAN HAPPEN if the Neutrino forms
a Quasineutron or what Mills calls a "Hydrino".

D-neutrino + D ---> 2 He4 + neutrino = 24 Mev
0r, T + P + neutrino, Or He3 + Neutron + neutrino. All that have been seen
in CF/OU.

http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/public/sno2.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 25 10:22:20 1999
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From: "Peter Aldo" <prospector85 hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Catalytic Converter CF/Hydrino Generator?
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:20:33 PST
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I have a set of plans from Underground Electronics Unlimited that shows 
how to make a fusion cell just as you described. I would like to talk 
about it. Must go now.  Pete



>To: Vortex
>
>A catalytic converter off about any auto should have enough Pd to act 
as a
>"burner for an H2/O2
>mix with excess H2 (or D2).
>
>Once started the temperature should get up as high as required. The H2O 
can
>be condensed and excess H2/D2 (and Hydrinos?) can be recycled.
>
>Potassium can be added to the catalyst "bed" by running a KOH or K2CO3 
water
>solution through the bed. The last time I used the converters you could 
get
>used ones at a junkyard for less than $10.00.
>
>The beads should clean up nicely with H2/O2
>or CH4/O2, but watch for lead vapors in the older converters.
>
>Regards,    Frederick
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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Scott,
I have been on the road since Jan 17th due to a family emergency. Cross
country by car to Florida, New Jersey and now another 2 or 3 weeks in
Brooklyn. My Aunt just bought a computer and had me set it up for her. This
was the first chance I have been able to log on to the net since I left Las
Vegas. 770 E-Mails waiting! Jeez, most I wont be able to respond to until I
return to Nevada on or about March 17th.  Will be ramping up to restart the
experiments shortly after my return home.

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Brooklyn, NY 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 25 11:32:51 1999
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:29:09 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 2/6/99 11:32:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, Tstolper aol.com
writes:

<< I can think of several reasons why Mills apparently never pursued any
nuclear
 reactions any further.  One of them is safety.  I'd be awfully nervous about
 running deuterium in a cell like Vince Cockeram's.  Gaseous tritium isn't
good
 for one's health if anything breaks.  Furthermore, a high-temperature gas-
 phase cell like Vince's might produce deuterinos fairly far down the quantum
 ladder, and those deuterinos might produce unhealthy levels of stuff other
 than tritium, e.g., gammas and neutrons.  >>

I do not plan on any experiments using D2. Too much uncertainty in there for
me.
I should be back in my Las Vegas lab about March 17th. In Brooklyn NY now.

Vince Cockeram
Brooklyn New York  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 25 12:58:48 1999
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: SUI - AC Plasmatron (http://www.suip3.com/acplasma.html)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:54:53 -0700
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Here's what you need for turning H2 or D2 into quasineutrons or "hydrinos",
Pete. This way you can recycle the H2 or D2 without combustion with O2. You
can use Methane (CH4, Natural Gas) too. :-)  FJS

http://www.suip3.com/acplasma.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 25 16:48:41 1999
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: "Peter Aldo" <prospector85 hotmail.com>
Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Plasma Torch Quasineutron/Hydrino Generator
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:38:37 -0700
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Pete,

I think a mix of H2 or D2 (ionization potential 13.6 ev)with Argon
(ionization potential 13.67 ev)and a second ionization energy of 27.6 ev
which is close to that of Potassium, recirculated through a heat exchanger
"tank" might do the trick, in case Mills is right about the role of
Potassium. :-)

When you are talking 8,000 K (the Solar surface is about 6,000 K) the Saha
Equation:

Log10 (Ni^2/No)= -5040*(Vi/T)+1.5Log10T+15.385

the H2/D2 and Argon are ionized extensively.

At these temperatures CH4 will probably form some acetylene C2H2, which
decomposes exothermally to Cx (Fullerenes?)+ yH2

Regards,   Frederick


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When you get ready to interface the Plasma Torch with a Stirling Engine,
Pete. :-) FJS

http://powerweb.lerc.nasa.gov/stirling/home.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Feb 25 19:52:06 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Plasma Torch Quasineutron/Hydrino Generator
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 03:49:52 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:38:37 -0700, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

>Pete,
>
>I think a mix of H2 or D2 (ionization potential 13.6 ev)with Argon
>(ionization potential 13.67 ev)and a second ionization energy of 27.6 ev

I have a first ionisation energy of Ar = 15.76 eV ?
(O = 13.618 & Kr = 13.999).
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: Plasma Torch Quasineutron/Hydrino Generator

Robin wrote:


>On Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:38:37 -0700, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>
>>Pete,
>>
>>I think a mix of H2 or D2 (ionization potential 13.6 ev)with Argon
>>(ionization potential 13.67 ev)and a second ionization energy of 27.6 ev
>
>I have a first ionisation energy of Ar = 15.76 eV ?

Right you are,Robin. :-) My variable trifocal glasses are overdue for an
upgrade. Ar I 15.759
ev, Ar II 27.629 ev

I think this won't sway the Saha Equation outcome by much at 8,000 K,
though.
>(O = 13.618 & Kr = 13.999).
>[snip]

Thanks,    Frederick
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 26 02:32:05 1999
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Subject: Inductively-Coupled Plasma (http://info.xmu.edu.cn/chemistry/chemedu/icp.htm)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 03:29:44 -0700
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Looks simple enough. Is 27 MHz CB? :-)

http://info.xmu.edu.cn/chemistry/chemedu/icp.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 26 07:06:19 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: The First International Conference on Free Energy
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:05:39 -0500
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Vorts,

Pat Bailey posted this to the freeNRG group about a week ago.  Didn't see it
here, and thought that it should be posted.  It begs the obvious question,
why is the State Department sponsoring this, and not the DOE? -Knuke


===============================================================

The First International Conference on Free Energy

U.S. Dept. of State
Washington, D.C., USA

Conference: April 29-30, 1999
Workshops:  May 1, 1999


Hosted by the Secretary of State Open Forum


The objective of CoFE is to:

* Educate the private and public sectors about free energy
* Demonstrate its capacity to perform work free of charge
* Explain how it is superior to centralized power generation
* Emphasize the planetary urgency for its adoption
* Broaden deregulation choices free of combustion-pollution
* Discuss the availability of various free energy systems
* Analyze free energy science regarding input and output


Scheduled Plenary Speakers:

* Dr. Paul Brown, Nuclear Solutions Inc.
* Dr. Edmund Storms, Los Alamos Labs (ret.)
* Dr. Paulo Correa
* Les Adam, AZ Industries
* Dr. Peter Graneau,
  Center. for Electromagnetic Research, Northeastern Univ.
* David Wallman
* Chris Flavin, Worldwatch Institute
* Dr. David Goodwin, DOE
* Bruce Perrault
* Chip Ransford, Nova Resources Group
* Dr. Deborah D. L. Chung, SUNY/Buffalo
* Dr. Tom Van Flandern, Meta Research
* James Griggs, Hydro Dynamics Inc.
* Kent Robertson, American Wind Energy Association

For further information, contact the co-sponsor:

Integrity Research Institute
1422 K Street NW
Suite 204
Washington, DC  20005
202-452-7674
800-295-7674
FAX 301-513-5728
iri erols.com
http://www.erols.com/iri/

===============================================================

The First International Conference on Free Energy


With the assistance of the Chairperson of the Secretary's Open Forum, the
conference will be conducted under the auspices of the U. S. State
Department at 2201 C Street NW, Washington, DC 20520, in the Dean Acheson
Auditorium accompanied by attendees from the Dept. of State, Dept. of
Energy, NASA, embassies, non-profit organizations. A separate video room
will schedule continuous energy documentary videos both days.

Call agent early for hotel reservations across the street from the
conference: 800-777-8747.

The State Department is Metro (subway) accessible.  use the Foggy
Bottom/GWU stop, and walk south 4 blocks.

===============================================================

The First International Conference on Free Energy

A conference featuring the some of the best professional scientists and
inventors who have specialized in new, unconventional, and clean energy
alternatives that approach the ideal of "free" energy: an ideal that sets
the standard for on-site, modular power units as the electricity of the
future.

The emphasis for speakers will be: (1) the details of the technology, (2)
how it can be utilized effectively, and additionally, (3) the implications
for society upon adoption of the technical advancement.

List of invited speakers:

Dr. Paul Brown*
Betavoltaic Batteries (possible demo)

Dr. Edmund Storms*
Hydrogen Technologies Overview

Dr. Paulo Correa
Pulsed Plasma Glow Discharge

Les Adam*
Peroxide Powered Helicopter (Demo!)

Dr. Peter Graneau*
Release of Chemical Bond Energy

David Wallman*
Carbon-Arc Gasification of Biomass

Chris Flavin
WorldWatch Renewable Energy

Dr. David Goodwin*
Zero Point Energy Generation

Bruce Perrault*
Nuclear Radiant Energy Battery (Demo)

Chip Ransford*
Tabletop Nuclear Transmutation (Demo)

Dr. Deborah D. L. Chung*
Negative Resistance and Superconductivity

Dr. Tom Van Flandern*
Gravity Model and Free Energy Implications

James Griggs*
Hydrosonic Pump Generator  (cavitation)

Kent Robertson*
American Wind Energy Association

*confirmed as of 2/1/99

Thirty Exhibitors also featured who are not speakers (as well as some who
are speakers), including: Energy Information Administration (DOE),
Lightworks Audio/Video, Solarex Solar Power Panels, U of Md FutureCar Team,
Breakthrough Technologies Institute, Magnetizer Inc., U.S. Energy
Association, Billings Corp., Fuel Cell Institute, Integrity Research
Institute, Friends of the Earth, and many others.

Workshops:

1.  Dr. Eugene Mallove: "Assisted Nuclear Reactions";
2.  Dr. Edmond Stroms: "Technical Details"
3.  Bruce Perrault: "Radiant Energy"
4.  Les Adams: "From Magnets to Helicopters
5.  Paul Pantone: "GEET Clean Conbustion Device"
6.  Chip Ransford: "Nucleosysthesis Details"
7.  Kent Robertson: "The Right Windmill for You"
8.  Dr. paul Brown: "Effective Radioactive Waste Remediation"
9.  Dr. Peter Graneau: "Experimental Results of Arc Discharges"
10. David Wallman: "Biomass Solution"
and
two other mystery guests!!!

===============================================================

Conference Notes:

* Videotapes.

Professional quality videotapes of each speaker will be available after the
conference.

* Workshops.

Saturday two-hour sessions are scheduled in parallel at $30. each.

* Admission.

No charge for admission. However, a per person cost of a gourmet catered
lunch ($20) and two refreshment breaks ($5) per day, plus surcharges, has
been assessed.

* Hotel.

A limited number of rooms set aside for CoFE attendees at the State Plaza
Hotel, 2117 E St. NW, (202-861-8200, 800-424-2859) by mentioning Group
#4527.

* Travel.

Ericson Travel (CoFE Official Agent) has deep discount travel and hotels
available (301-595-7999, 800-777-8747).

* Reception.

Pre-conference speaker reception in the Diplomat Room of the State Plaza
Hotel 7-9 PM April 28, Wednesday night.

* Entertainment.

Kennedy Center (walk 3 blocks )

===============================================================

Registration Form:

Use one sheet for each person attending:


Catering Fee:  $30.00 per day, or $60.00 total:  __________

Proceedings:   $25.00 Each:                      __________

Workshops at Hotel:  $30.00 each:                __________

Videotapes:  $20.00 each:                        __________

TOTAL:

Use check/money order/MC/VISA/Novus/AmEx: _________________


Security Requirements for Admissions name Badge:
(Sorry, no substututes for this information)

U.S. Citizen Social Security #:  __________________________
                                  NOT REQUIRED!  SEE BELOW.

     Birthdate:                  __________________________

Foriegn Attendee Passport #:     __________________________

or Diplomatic ID #:              __________________________

     Birthdate:                  __________________________

Note:  This information will be held in confidence.

Name:

Address:

City:

State:

Zip:

Country:

Phone:

Send to:

Integrity Research Institute
1422 K Street NW
Suite 204
Washington, DC  20005
202-452-7674
800-295-7674
FAX 301-513-5728
iri erols.com
http://www.erols.com/iri/

===============================================================
===============================================================

Transcribed into text from WORD98 files by Patrick Bailey,
February 17, 1999, and emailed to the world,
because Tom Valone is a friend of mine.

Good Luck Tom!

Dr. Patrick Bailey
President, Institute for New Energy
http://www.padrak.com/ine/

===============================================================

Regarding the April International Free Energy Conference in WDC,
per my previous email:

a SSN is NOT required (thanks to Dale Pond!):

Tom Valone says:

and furthermore, a driver's license or US passport
number is okay for the admission badge.

Thanks Dale.

Thanks Tom!


Full email text:

Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:24:29 -0800
From: Thomas Valone <iri erols.com>
Organization: Integrity Research Institute
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: pgb padrak.com
CC: dalesvp ipa.net, reed@zenergy.com
Subject: CoFE
X-Rcpt-To: pgb padrak.com

Hi Pat, Thanks for the summary email for CoFE. Due to Dale's quoting of
the legal stuff, I check with another person at the State Dept. and he
said Dale was right and furthermore, a driver's license or US passport
number is okay for the admission badge. Perhaps a followup email to let
people know will help.


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
Lady Lake, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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Subject:  The First International Conference on Free Energy
 Resent-Date:  Fri, 26 Feb 1999 06:03:49 -0800
 Resent-From:  vortex-l eskimo.com
        Date:   Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:05:39 -0500
        From:   knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
    Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
          To:      vortex-l eskimo.com

Vorts,

Pat Bailey posted this to the freeNRG group about a week ago.  Didn't
see it
here, and thought that it should be posted.  It begs the obvious
question,
why is the State Department sponsoring this, and not the DOE? -Knuke


===============================================================

The First International Conference on Free Energy

U.S. Dept. of State
Washington, D.C., USA

Conference: April 29-30, 1999
Workshops:  May 1, 1999

Hosted by the Secretary of State Open Forum

The objective of CoFE is to:

* Educate the private and public sectors about free energy
* Demonstrate its capacity to perform work free of charge
* Explain how it is superior to centralized power generation
* Emphasize the planetary urgency for its adoption
* Broaden deregulation choices free of combustion-pollution
* Discuss the availability of various free energy systems
* Analyze free energy science regarding input and output

Scheduled Plenary Speakers:

* Dr. Paul Brown, Nuclear Solutions Inc.
* Dr. Edmund Storms, Los Alamos Labs (ret.)
* Dr. Paulo Correa
* Les Adam, AZ Industries
* Dr. Peter Graneau,
  Center. for Electromagnetic Research, Northeastern Univ.
* David Wallman
* Chris Flavin, Worldwatch Institute
* Dr. David Goodwin, DOE
* Bruce Perrault
* Chip Ransford, Nova Resources Group
* Dr. Deborah D. L. Chung, SUNY/Buffalo
* Dr. Tom Van Flandern, Meta Research
* James Griggs, Hydro Dynamics Inc.
* Kent Robertson, American Wind Energy Association

For further information, contact the co-sponsor:

Integrity Research Institute
1422 K Street NW
Suite 204
Washington, DC  20005
202-452-7674
800-295-7674
FAX 301-513-5728
iri erols.com
http://www.erols.com/iri/

===============================================================

The First International Conference on Free Energy

With the assistance of the Chairperson of the Secretary's Open Forum,
the
conference will be conducted under the auspices of the U. S. State
Department at 2201 C Street NW, Washington, DC 20520, in the Dean
Acheson
Auditorium accompanied by attendees from the Dept. of State, Dept. of
Energy, NASA, embassies, non-profit organizations. A separate video room

will schedule continuous energy documentary videos both days.

Call agent early for hotel reservations across the street from the
conference: 800-777-8747.

The State Department is Metro (subway) accessible.  use the Foggy
Bottom/GWU stop, and walk south 4 blocks.

===============================================================

The First International Conference on Free Energy

A conference featuring the some of the best professional scientists and
inventors who have specialized in new, unconventional, and clean energy
alternatives that approach the ideal of "free" energy: an ideal that
sets
the standard for on-site, modular power units as the electricity of the
future.

The emphasis for speakers will be: (1) the details of the technology,
(2)
how it can be utilized effectively, and additionally, (3) the
implications
for society upon adoption of the technical advancement.

List of invited speakers:

Dr. Paul Brown*
Betavoltaic Batteries (possible demo)

Dr. Edmund Storms*
Hydrogen Technologies Overview

Dr. Paulo Correa
Pulsed Plasma Glow Discharge

Les Adam*
Peroxide Powered Helicopter (Demo!)

Dr. Peter Graneau*
Release of Chemical Bond Energy

David Wallman*
Carbon-Arc Gasification of Biomass

Chris Flavin
WorldWatch Renewable Energy

Dr. David Goodwin*
Zero Point Energy Generation

Bruce Perrault*
Nuclear Radiant Energy Battery (Demo)

Chip Ransford*
Tabletop Nuclear Transmutation (Demo)

Dr. Deborah D. L. Chung*
Negative Resistance and Superconductivity

Dr. Tom Van Flandern*
Gravity Model and Free Energy Implications

James Griggs*
Hydrosonic Pump Generator  (cavitation)

Kent Robertson*
American Wind Energy Association

*confirmed as of 2/1/99

Thirty Exhibitors also featured who are not speakers (as well as some
who
are speakers), including: Energy Information Administration (DOE),
Lightworks Audio/Video, Solarex Solar Power Panels, U of Md FutureCar
Team,
Breakthrough Technologies Institute, Magnetizer Inc., U.S. Energy
Association, Billings Corp., Fuel Cell Institute, Integrity Research
Institute, Friends of the Earth, and many others.

Workshops:

1.  Dr. Eugene Mallove: "Assisted Nuclear Reactions";
2.  Dr. Edmond Stroms: "Technical Details"
3.  Bruce Perrault: "Radiant Energy"
4.  Les Adams: "From Magnets to Helicopters
5.  Paul Pantone: "GEET Clean Conbustion Device"
6.  Chip Ransford: "Nucleosysthesis Details"
7.  Kent Robertson: "The Right Windmill for You"
8.  Dr. Paul Brown: "Effective Radioactive Waste Remediation"
9.  Dr. Peter Graneau: "Experimental Results of Arc Discharges"
10. David Wallman: "Biomass Solution"
and
two other mystery guests!!!

===============================================================

Conference Notes:

* Videotapes.

Professional quality videotapes of each speaker will be available after
the
conference.

* Workshops.

Saturday two-hour sessions are scheduled in parallel at $30. each.

* Admission.

No charge for admission. However, a per person cost of a gourmet catered

lunch ($20) and two refreshment breaks ($5) per day, plus surcharges,
has
been assessed.

* Hotel.

A limited number of rooms set aside for CoFE attendees at the State
Plaza
Hotel, 2117 E St. NW, (202-861-8200, 800-424-2859) by mentioning Group
#4527.

* Travel.

Ericson Travel (CoFE Official Agent) has deep discount travel and hotels

available (301-595-7999, 800-777-8747).

* Reception.

Pre-conference speaker reception in the Diplomat Room of the State Plaza

Hotel 7-9 PM April 28, Wednesday night.

* Entertainment.

Kennedy Center (walk 3 blocks )

===============================================================

Registration Form:

Use one sheet for each person attending:

Catering Fee:  $30.00 per day, or $60.00 total:  __________

Proceedings:   $25.00 Each:                      __________

Workshops at Hotel:  $30.00 each:                __________

Videotapes:  $20.00 each:                        __________

TOTAL:

Use check/money order/MC/VISA/Novus/AmEx: _________________

Security Requirements for Admissions name Badge:
(Sorry, no substututes for this information)

U.S. Citizen Social Security #:  __________________________
                                  NOT REQUIRED!  SEE BELOW.

     Birthdate:                  __________________________

Foriegn Attendee Passport #:     __________________________

or Diplomatic ID #:              __________________________

     Birthdate:                  __________________________

Note:  This information will be held in confidence.

Name:

Address:

City:

State:

Zip:

Country:

Phone:

Send to:

Integrity Research Institute
1422 K Street NW
Suite 204
Washington, DC  20005
202-452-7674
800-295-7674
FAX 301-513-5728
iri erols.com
http://www.erols.com/iri/

===============================================================
===============================================================

Transcribed into text from WORD98 files by Patrick Bailey,
February 17, 1999, and emailed to the world,
because Tom Valone is a friend of mine.

Good Luck Tom!

Dr. Patrick Bailey
President, Institute for New Energy
http://www.padrak.com/ine/

===============================================================

Regarding the April International Free Energy Conference in WDC,
per my previous email:

a SSN is NOT required (thanks to Dale Pond!):

Tom Valone says:

and furthermore, a driver's license or US passport
number is okay for the admission badge.

Thanks Dale.

Thanks Tom!


Full email text:

Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:24:29 -0800
From: Thomas Valone <iri erols.com>
Organization: Integrity Research Institute
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: pgb padrak.com
CC: dalesvp ipa.net, reed@zenergy.com
Subject: CoFE
X-Rcpt-To: pgb padrak.com

Hi Pat, Thanks for the summary email for CoFE. Due to Dale's quoting of
the legal stuff, I check with another person at the State Dept. and he
said Dale was right and furthermore, a driver's license or US passport
number is okay for the admission badge. Perhaps a followup email to let
people know will help.


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
Lady Lake, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

Dr. Paul Brown
                                           Betavoltaic Batteries (Demo)
               Dr. Edmund Storms
                                           New Method for Initiating
Nuclear Reactions
               Dr. Paulo Correa
                                           Pulsed Plasma Glow Discharge
               Les Adam
                                           Peroxide Powered Helicopter
(Demo)
               James Griggs
                                           Hydrosonic Pump and Free
Energy
               Dr. Peter Graneau
                                           Release of Chemical Bond
Energy
               David Wallman
                                           Carbon-Arc Gasification of
Biomass Solutions
               Ken Shoulders
                                           New Energetics
               Dr. David Goodwin
                                           Summary of the Breakthrough
Physics
                                           Conference
               Bruce Perrault
                                           Nuclear Radiant Energy
Battery (Demo)
               Chip Ransford
                                           Tabletop Nuclear
Transmutation
               Kent Robertson
                                           American Wind Energy
               Dr. Tom Van Flandern
                                           Complete Gravity Model and
Free Energy
               Dr. Deborah D. L. Chung
                                           Carbon Fiber Electrical
Energy Generation




          THIRTY EXHIBITORS include: Solarex Solar Panels; Canyon
Industries
          Hydroelectric Systems; Energy Information Administration
(DOE); Lightworks  Audio/Video; AZ Industries; FutureCar Team (U of MD);
Breakthrough  Technologies; Magnetizer Inc., US Energy Association;
Billings Corp.; Fuel Cell   Institute; Integrity Research Institute;
Friends of the Earth; Worldwatch Inst.;  GEET; and more!

          WORKSHOPS (limited space):
(1) Dr. Gene Mallove "Assisted Nuclear Reactions";
(2) Dr. Ed Storms "Technical Details of the New Method";
(3) Les Adam "From Magnets to Helicopters";
(4) Paul Pantone "GEET Clean Combustion Kit";
(5) Chip  Ransford "Nucleosynthesis Free Energy Details";
(6) Kent Robertson "The Right  Windmill for You";
(7) Dr. Paul Brown "Effective Radioactive Waste  Remediation";
(8) Dr. Peter Graneau "Experimental Results of Arc Discharge";
(9) David Wallman "Biomass Solutions"; and three more to be assigned!


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 26 19:21:50 1999
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen & Argon Ion Concentrations at High Temperatures
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:18:39 -0700
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To: Vortex

Guy Suits noted that the highest temperature he could attain with H2 at
Atmospheric pressure was 7,000 Kelvin. Higher pressures were too unstable to
yield any temperature data.

Number crunching using the Saha Equation:

T deg K  atoms/moles/cm^3  H+ ions    Ar+ ions

2000        4E18           215         0.4

4000        2E18          9.5E10       4.12E9

6000        1.35E18       7.6E13       9.3E12

8000        1.00E18       1.8E16       4.5E14

at 6000 Kelvin H2 is about 36% dissociated to 2 H.

Unless something in the Mills experiments dissociates and catalyzes
ionization of H2 at less than 4000 Kelvin, I don't see how he created
"Hydrinos" at those temperatures,without an electrical discharge, even if
Potassium ions were created on the hot tungsten filaments.

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 26 19:47:47 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hydrogen & Argon Ion Concentrations at High Temperatures
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 03:45:37 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:18:39 -0700, Frederick J Sparber wrote:

>To: Vortex
>
>Guy Suits noted that the highest temperature he could attain with H2 at
>Atmospheric pressure was 7,000 Kelvin. Higher pressures were too unstable to
>yield any temperature data.
>
>Number crunching using the Saha Equation:
>
>T deg K  atoms/moles/cm^3  H+ ions    Ar+ ions
>
>2000        4E18           215         0.4
>
>4000        2E18          9.5E10       4.12E9
>
>6000        1.35E18       7.6E13       9.3E12
>
>8000        1.00E18       1.8E16       4.5E14
>
>at 6000 Kelvin H2 is about 36% dissociated to 2 H.
>
>Unless something in the Mills experiments dissociates and catalyzes
>ionization of H2 at less than 4000 Kelvin, I don't see how he created

He doesn't need them to be ionised, just dissociated into atoms.
In the electrolysis experiments, this happens automatically, as nascent 
hydrogen is already in atomic form, which then combines into molecules
(if I'm not mistaken). Also, the presence of catalysts, such as Pd or
Pt, also tend to dissociate hydrogen molecules.

>"Hydrinos" at those temperatures,without an electrical discharge, even if
>Potassium ions were created on the hot tungsten filaments.
>
>Regards,   Frederick

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Feb 26 22:52:03 1999
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-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: Hydrogen & Argon Ion Concentrations at High Temperatures

Robin wrote:
>
>He doesn't need them to be ionised, just dissociated into atoms.

Even still, in the H2 gas the dissociation is about:

log10(n2H^2/nH2) = -5040*Vd/T+1.5*Log10T+15.385

where Vd is the H2 dissociation energy (4.53 ev). About 10^-3 percent H2
dissociation at 2000 Kelvin.

If you have free radical H, OH, K, CxHy, W, WOx,etc. chemical chain
reactions going on as in combustion,or the experiment Scott attempted to
duplicate, then it IS a totally different ballgame.
>
>In the electrolysis experiments, this happens automatically, as nascent
>hydrogen is already in atomic form, which then combines into molecules

Agreed,but the "experiment" wasn't set up that way.
>(if I'm not mistaken). Also, the presence of catalysts, such as Pd or
>Pt, also tend to dissociate hydrogen molecules.

Certainly, the electron work functions are near the 4.53 ev H2 dissociation
energy and the Potassium ionization energy,which why they make good
combustion catalysts, which puts the Mills "hydrino theory" in the same
ballpark as the P&F CF theory, doesn't it?  :-)

Regards,   Frederick
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 27 00:06:10 1999
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To: aspartame onelist.com, mgold@tiac.net, craven@bev.net, whelan@acsh.org,
        kava acsh.org, ross@acsh.org, msfacts@icanect.net,
        urbanlegends.guide miningco.com, smargoli@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu,
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Subject: Murray: GAIN: "General Aspartame Inquiry Network" discussion group  
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Feb. 26, 1999     Hello Barbara Metzler,  Thank you very much for the
details about your daughter, family, and friends.  I will start GAIN:
"General Aspartame Inquiry Network" discussion group with
www.onelist.com , so accounts can all be in one place, with added
details, such as letters from the time of difficulty and recovery,
collaborating statements from relatives, friends, and medical
professionals, laboratory test data, photographs, handwriting samples,
ect.  We can create an questionaire to help structure the data.   A lot
of scientific clues can be discovered, as probably there are multiple
paths of toxicity, that vary from person to person, probably influenced
by diet and other medications, for example, or whether the person is
also allergic to the mercury in their "silver" amalgam dental fillings.
It will be very helpful for persons to keep a daily diary of their
process after quitting all aspartame.

 I am intrigued by your observation that aspartame may be addicting --
the first time I've heard that bad news.  That's the sort of anecdotal
observation that can catalyze focused research.

By being calm and courteous, we can draw in more medical professionals
and business executives, who may initially be quite skeptical and
biased, but if we make it easier for them to face organized, commonsense
facts, without a barrage of moralistic, emotional outrage, however
justified, we can win quite a few over.  There's nothing like a convert
in your church for dedication and initiative, you know.   We also can
arouse the interest and avaricious self-interest of lawyers, who have
seen some of their colleagues make millions from helping society rein in
the tobacco addiction juggarnaut.   Health maintenance organizations and
governments are also highly motivated to find a way of reducing medical
costs -- what better way than to prevent disease in the first place!  We
also need to broaden the process of inquiry  to make it world-wide.

For instance, Dr. Julian Whitaker, in his journal , "Health & Healing",
December, 1994, 4(12),  writes in his article, "A Natural Sweetener
That's Also Calorie-Free", available on the Internet:
http://www.asktom-naturally.com/naturally/stevia2.html

"Stevia is a herb that has been used in South America for hundreds of
years. It is calorie-free, and the powdered concentrate is 300 times
sweeter than sugar.  Stevia is used all over the world.  In Japan, for
example, it claims 41% of the sweetener market, including sugar, and was
used in Japanese Diet Cola until the company replaced it with aspartame
to "standardize" worldwide.  There have not been any reports of toxicity
with stevia, which is consumed by millions of people daily"

Now, this is very valuable information.  Japan has inadvertantly started
a vast before and after experiment, replacing stevia with aspartame in
their Diet Cola.  Can we find medical databases to see if the symptoms
reported by diet soda users have changed over the last five years?   Are
the same symptoms being reported that we find in the USA?  This would
demonstrate that the toxicity is real, and not just the result of
"hysterical contagion" or "observer bias".  Are there groups forming in
Japan for aspartame toxicity advocacy?  How do their business,
government,  medical, and media systems deal with the issue?  We need
some friends who are fluent in Japanese.

So, I hope many persons will volunteer to supply all this data, which is
very personal at times, and enlist the cooperation of their many medical
professionals.  I appreciate being in contact with professionals far
more skilled and trained than myself, so we can form a democratic
central core to stabilize a wider network of people, commited to civil,
objective, open-minded investigation of aspartame toxicity.

You see, the Internet allows not only politics and business to be
democratized, but also science. The skills we develop and the example we
set in dealing constructively and efficiently with this problem will be
very influencial for those facing many other pressing problems of the
modern world urban society.

The aspartame inquiry group network will be most effective if all points
of view are allowed to post, using civil language, and if criticism is
actively sought out, welcomed, studied carefully, and responded to
tactfully and specifically.

As one,  Rich Murray  Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103
rmforall earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmforall

Barbara Metzler wrote:

>  Dear Richard:
>
> It's wonderful to have such an intelligent thinker on the
> anti-aspartame side.  I send so many e-mails, I'm not sure if I ever
> sent you this about my daughter. (I think I did)  So, here goes.
>
> (I also want to tell you that the manufacturer of aspartame is also
> into genetically engineered crops and genetically engineered milk.)
>
> 12 years ago, when my daughter was in her early 20’s and studying for
> a Master’s Degree,
> she noticed that she was experiencing bizarre symptoms that were quite
> alarming.
>
> This truly bright girl – (whose college tuition was funded by
> scholarships) –realized that she was becoming very confused.  She
> would go to a grocery store and couldn’t remember why she was there.
> She would be driving her car and couldn’t remember how to get home.
>
> And she got much worse.  In addition to her drastic personality change
> and intellectual deterioration,
>
> she had epileptic type seizures,
> she began to lose her vision
> she had severe headaches and trouble forming words,   panic attacks,
> a rapid heart rate,   profound exhaustion,   insomnia
>  suicidal thoughts   and numerous other problems including a very
> short temper..
>
> Her marriage ended and she lost her job.
>
> She consulted a neurologist, and he told her that she had temporal
> lobe epilepsy.
> He began treating her with medication, but the medication didn’t work,
> because the doctor was wrong in his diagnosis and he was treating her
> for a condition she didn’t have!
>
> I had heard about Dr. H. J. Roberts (Florida), so I contacted him and
> he confirmed what I suspected – that she was suffering from a reaction
> to the artificial sweetener in diet soda.
>
> My daughter owes her life to Dr. Roberts, because thanks to him, she
> stopped drinking diet soda, and gradually, every one of her problems
> disappeared.
>
> To follow up, we took her to Boston for special studies on her brain,
> and the doctors confirmed that it was the NutraSweet that had made her
> so sick.   They said that she had been totally misdiagnosed by the
> neurologist and that she did not have temporal lobe epilepsy at all.
> (  These men were in the Clinical Research Center at the Massachusetts
> Institute of Technology. Let me tell you that these researchers change
> their stories about aspartame with pressure from the manufacturer!)
>
> She was fine for 12 years.  A year ago, she began drinking diet soda
> again and had the same severe reaction.  Luckily, we realized what was
> happening to her and
> were able to convince her to stop using NutraSweet.   Why did she
> start again?  It’s addictive!
>
> Many other members of our family also have noticed a reaction to
> NutraSweet.  (I get severe classic migraines from diet soda – my son,
> who is a physician, can’t see to
> drive if he drinks diet soda – another young man in the family, a
> lawyer, had double vision.  His ophthalmologist thought he had a brain
> tumor, but all the tests were negative.  He stopped drinking diet
> soda, and within 3 months, the double vision was gone.  My
> sister-in-law acted like a “raving maniac” when she drank diet soda.)
>
> And, by talking to others in my community for 12 years, I have learned
> that reactions to NutraSweet are quite common.
>
> Unfortunately, most physicians are clueless when it comes to
> connecting the many symptoms of NutraSweet poisoning with the
> consumption of what is supposedly a safe substance.
>
> By approving NutraSweet, the FDA caused many problems for many
> innocent people.
> Because my daughter was so disabled by diet soda, she lost at least
> $50,000 in wages she would otherwise have earned.  And, the years of
> heartbreak that her father and I had to endure can never be erased
> from our memories.
>
> The FDA should be protecting Americans, but sadly, Americans have to
> protect themselves.
>
> Keep up the great work!
> Barbara



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 27 17:10:09 1999
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Subject: Re: Neutrino Detection with Infrared-Microwave Scattering?
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To: Vortex

If the photon momentum, mv = E/c is nearly the
same as the momentum, mv (Mo[(E/Eo)+1]*v, Mo = Eo/c^2)of the Neutrinos in a
"Neutrino
Gas" in a good vacuum they Might be detectable by elastic scattering of
Infrared Photons out to 50 microns or so, or Microwave Spectroscopy
technique.

I wouldn't bet the farm on it,but it might be worth taking a look-see.  :-)

Regards,  Frederick




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 27 19:42:44 1999
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All:

If I wanted to publish experimental results/setups/etc., what would be a
good science journal to publish in? Several people have recommended a
journal called Apeiron, others American Physical Journal...what are the
good points of these? Are there other good ones?

Thanks,
Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 27 20:17:34 1999
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From: "Dennis C. Lee" <atech ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Another good use for an Inverse G Vehicle
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A certain most honored professor recently stated that another useful purpose
for an Inverse G Vehicle would be to bring raw materials from the asteroid
belt to the Earth for industrial use. We could then avoid destroying our
environment mining for ores and such.

Regards;
Dennis



Tall Ships
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html


Concentric Tori
http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/GoldCTori_A.JPG


Circle Of Fire - Dreamland - VR Avatars! Great Fun!
http://www.artbellchatclub.com


________________________________________

When I am working on a problem,
I never think about beauty.
I only think of how to solve the problem.
But when I have finished,
if the solution is not beautiful,
I know it is wrong.

-R. Buckminster Fuller-



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 27 21:33:41 1999
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From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Science journals...
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Kyle -

   >  If I wanted to publish experimental
   >  results/setups/etc., what would be a good science
   >  journal to publish in? Several people have
   >  recommended a journal called Apeiron, others
   >  American Physical Journal...what are the good
   >  points of these? Are there other good ones?

How about here?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Feb 27 21:38:57 1999
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Kyle -
> 
>    >  If I wanted to publish experimental
>    >  results/setups/etc., what would be a good science
>    >  journal to publish in? Several people have
>    >  recommended a journal called Apeiron, others
>    >  American Physical Journal...what are the good
>    >  points of these? Are there other good ones?
> 
> How about here?

Oh, rest assured, I would. But not everyone subscribes to Vortex-L. Most
of the scientists don't, unfortunately. So I need a journal also where I
can publish, so that the information could reach the largest group.

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 28 07:07:50 1999
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"Dennis C. Lee" wrote:

> A certain most honored professor recently stated that another useful purpose
> for an Inverse G Vehicle would be to bring raw materials from the asteroid
> belt to the Earth for industrial use. We could then avoid destroying our
> environment mining for ores and such.
>

Dennis,
If we bring back "raw" materials, would we not have to process it, and create
more environmental problems?  Even if the process was done in orbit, the
pollution would also remain in orbit.  Maybe we should just go there (to the
asteroids) make what we need, and then ship it back home.....




--
Regards,
Patrick V. Reavis
http://ro.com/~preavis
http://ro.com/~preavis/Quiz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 28 13:06:27 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Science journals...
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On Sat, 27 Feb 1999, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:

> > How about here?
> 
> Oh, rest assured, I would. But not everyone subscribes to Vortex-L. Most
> of the scientists don't, unfortunately. So I need a journal also where I
> can publish, so that the information could reach the largest group.

If the topic is "weird" (i.e., energy/gravity anomalies, or relativity
violation), then how much effort do you want to expend in trying to break
into a legit journal?  Have you seen B. Martin's article about the options
available to "Dissident Scientists"? :

  http://www.jse.com/martin/toc.html



Some Professional journals:

  Journal of Scientific Exploration
  http://www.jse.com

  Aperion
  http://redshift.vif.com/

  Galilean Electrodynamics
  http://msx2.pha.jhu.edu/~dring/gehtmls/gestuff.html

  NPA Newsletter
  http://www.ebicom.net/~rsf1/npa/npa_home.shtml

  Journal of New Energy
  http://www.padrak.com/ine/JNEV2N2.html

  Speculations in Science and Technology
  http://www.thomsonscience.com/ss.html


Popular journals:

  Infinite Energy
  http://www.infinite-energy.com

  Electric Spacecraft Journal
  http://www.cheta.net/dsi/esj

  New Energy News
  http://www.padrak.com/ine/

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 28 13:14:15 1999
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Schnurer,

Do you know anything about this???

	<><><><><><><><><>

Source: Star Tribune,

http://www2.startribune.com/cgi-bin/stOnLine/article?thisStory=70743796

Published Wednesday, February 24, 1999 

Home Planet: Heat islands, tornado profiles, antigravity study

(snip)


The incredible being of lightness  

UFO buffs, take note: NASA has awarded $600,000 to an Ohio 
company to try to reproduce an antigravity experiment reported 
several years ago in Physica, a Russian physics journal. In that 
article, a scientist reported that he had managed to get a 
spinning, superconducting disc to lose as much of 2 percent of 
its weight. He hypothesized that if this result were due to some 
gravity-shielding effect, when expanded and controlled it might 
allow a craft to float into space without being launched. The 
first NASA-funded attempt to reproduce the experiment failed, 
but the company, Superconductive Components, will try again. 
Some physicists think NASA is chasing a will-o-the-wisp and 
wasting a lot of money, but the agency appears to be hedging its 
bets: Overcoming gravity would be quite a weighty 
accomplishment. 


-- Compiled by Jim Dawson

© Copyright 1999 Star Tribune. All rights reserved.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 28 13:33:49 1999
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Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:31:52 -0800
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Never mind, John,

I found this at:

http://www.superconductivecomp.com/NASAselectsSCI.htm

Terry

	<><><><><><><><><><><>

    THE NATIONAL AERONAUTIC AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
        SELECTS SUPERCONDUCTIVE COMPONENTS, INC. FOR
                                  RESEARCH GRANT

COLUMBUS, Ohio - April 13, 1998 - Superconductive Components, Inc. (OTC
Bulletin Board: SCCI) today announced
that it had been awarded a Small Business Innovative Research (SBIR)
grant by the National Aeronautic and Space
Administration (NASA) to develop a process to manufacture large
superconductive discs for use in gravity modification
experiments.

The program, titled ‘Demonstrate the Feasibility of fabricating a Dual
Microstructure YBCO Toroid Suitable for Gravity
Shielding Experiments’ links Superconductive Components, Inc. (SCI) with
NASA and the Oak Ridge National Laboratory.
The Phase I award of $70,000 will fund work to be done at SCI to modify
its existing processes to develop a superconductive
toroid with a very specific microstructure. Work published by Russian
scientist Eugene Podkletnov suggests that a YBCO disc
with specialized features may be able, under laboratory conditions, to
shield gravity waves. Phase II of the program, if
approved by NASA, could be funded up to $600,000. Approximately one half
of NASA Phase I awards result in Phase II
contracts. 

"We are pleased to have been selected by NASA through its peer review
process, to do this work," said SCI Vice President,
J.R. Gaines, Jr. "This award is a great acknowledgment of our technical
strengths in YBCO Melt Texturing and the overall
capability of our team. We are hopeful that this SBIR, which allows us
to work closely with NASA on an extraordinary topic,
will lead to significant technical breakthroughs, resulting in ongoing
research and commercial sales." 

The concept of Gravity Modification has been investigated by NASA and
others for several months and has been the subject
of a recent documentary by German public television. International
attention has been focused on these experiments because
the shielding of earth bound objects from the effects of gravity may
radically alter the economics of space travel and
transportation in general.

Superconductive Components, Inc., head quartered in Columbus, Ohio,
manufactures ceramic superconductors for wire,
electronic devices, such as cellular base stations, and frictionless
bearing systems for energy storage and other rotating
machinery. The company sells its product in the US and over 40 foreign
countries. For more information contact J.R. Gaines,
Jr., Vice President, at 614.486.0261.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 28 13:39:34 1999
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From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
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William Beaty wrote:

> If the topic is "weird" (i.e., energy/gravity anomalies, or relativity
> violation), then how much effort do you want to expend in trying to break
> into a legit journal?  Have you seen B. Martin's article about the options
> available to "Dissident Scientists"? :

How weird is transmission of a signal with a velocity in excess of C?

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 28 13:59:50 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Another good use for an Inverse G Vehicle
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:56:42 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 09:04:56 -0600, Patrick V. Reavis wrote:

>"Dennis C. Lee" wrote:
>
>> A certain most honored professor recently stated that another useful purpose
>> for an Inverse G Vehicle would be to bring raw materials from the asteroid
>> belt to the Earth for industrial use. We could then avoid destroying our
>> environment mining for ores and such.
>>
>
>Dennis,
>If we bring back "raw" materials, would we not have to process it, and create
>more environmental problems?  Even if the process was done in orbit, the
>pollution would also remain in orbit.  Maybe we should just go there (to the
>asteroids) make what we need, and then ship it back home.....

Both of these replies testify to a linear processing mentality.
With a total recycling industrial process on earth, no environmental
degradation need occur.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 28 14:14:04 1999
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Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:19:22 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Keith Nagel <knagel cnct.com>
Subject: Re: Weird? WAS: Re: Science journals...
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Weird enough to be published in any of the journals
Bill listed.

;^)

Best would be Aperion or S.S.T. 


K.


At 03:32 PM 2/28/99 -0800, you wrote:
>William Beaty wrote:
>
>> If the topic is "weird" (i.e., energy/gravity anomalies, or relativity
>> violation), then how much effort do you want to expend in trying to break
>> into a legit journal?  Have you seen B. Martin's article about the options
>> available to "Dissident Scientists"? :
>
>How weird is transmission of a signal with a velocity in excess of C?
>
>Kyle R. Mcallister
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 28 15:23:49 1999
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Weird? WAS: Re: Science journals...
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-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Nagel <knagel cnct.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, February 28, 1999 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: Weird? WAS: Re: Science journals...

While you're in a weird mood Keith, can you tell me how much
influence/effect the
Solar Neutrino "gas" lolling around in the atmosphere/ionosphere has on
Radio-wave propagation?  Would HAARP? see this?

Regards,  Frederick


>Weird enough to be published in any of the journals
>Bill listed.
>
>;^)
>
>Best would be Aperion or S.S.T.
>
>
>K.
>
>
>At 03:32 PM 2/28/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>William Beaty wrote:
>>
>>> If the topic is "weird" (i.e., energy/gravity anomalies, or relativity
>>> violation), then how much effort do you want to expend in trying to
break
>>> into a legit journal?  Have you seen B. Martin's article about the
options
>>> available to "Dissident Scientists"? :
>>
>>How weird is transmission of a signal with a velocity in excess of C?
>>
>>Kyle R. Mcallister
>>
>>
>>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 28 16:08:09 1999
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: HAARP Fact Sheet (http://w3.nrl.navy.mil/projects/haarp/haarpFactSheet.html)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:59:38 -0700
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Is Horace under this thing?  :-)

http://w3.nrl.navy.mil/projects/haarp/haarpFactSheet.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 28 19:45:44 1999
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From: "Frederick J Sparber" <fjsparb sprintmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Transmission Lines, Corona, Neutrinos and Radon Daughters
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:34:48 -0700
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To: Vortex

The literature on Radon Daughters claims that "they tend to have a positive
charge and collect on negatively charged objects".

In the mid 1980's researchers from New Mexico Tech ran extensive tests
around high voltage transmission lines looking for Radon Daughters "with nil
results".

However.  :-) If the Corona which usually sets in at about 3.0E6
volts/meter, and less in the presence of moisture is creating H+ ions and
these are reacting with "inert neutrinos" forming Quasineutrons/Hydrinos and
Remediating the Radon Daughters.  :-)

New Signs around High Tension Lines:

DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE AND NEUTRINO-HYDRINO HAZARD!

Regards,  Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 28 22:32:51 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: HAARP Fact Sheet (http://w3.nrl.navy.mil/projects/haarp/haarpFactSheet.html)
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At 4:59 PM 2/28/99, Frederick J Sparber wrote:
>Is Horace under this thing?  :-)
>
>http://w3.nrl.navy.mil/projects/haarp/haarpFactSheet.html

It is a couple hours or so drive from here.  If they beam it SW at a 45
deg. angle from vertical and atmospheric conditions are just right I could
be toast.  8^(

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Feb 28 23:40:47 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: John Collins <jcollins free-energy.co.uk>
Subject: The Bessler/Orffyreus free energy machine
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 07:42:26 +0000
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Just letting you know that I have put my money where my mouth is. As
requested some time back, by several vociferous vorts, I've put an
abbreviated version of the theory I've developed about Johann Bessler's
wheel, up on my web site at http://www.free-energy.co.uk. Why it did not
violate any physical laws.  I have also discovered clues to the mechanism he
used and I have filed a patent on it.  As soon as I know how to replicate
the wheel I'll post that information too.  I would welcome any feedback :-)

John Collins


Author of 'Perpetual Motion; An Ancient Mystery Solved?' - for more
information and details on ordering, visit my web site at
http://www.free-energy.co.uk