From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 01:31:43 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA23960; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:30:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:30:29 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE7C3B.915A9520 cc1.itim-cj.ro> From: Peter Gluck To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: sonoluminescence breakthrough? Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:31:28 +-300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UTvW52.0.Is5.rop0t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26696 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vortexers, Sonoluminescence is closely related to cold fusion, therefore the following paper in Nature (I hope it is not an April 1 joke!) could be interesting for us: Hilgenfeldt, Grossmann, Lohse : A simple explanation of light emission in sonoluminescence" Nature, 398, 6726, 1 April1999. Plus a comment at: Sonoluminescence: And there was light! by Robert Apfel. Can a kind member of our noble guild take a look and tell what's this all about? Thank you in advance! Peter From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 02:59:00 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA15177; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 02:29:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 02:29:43 -0800 Message-ID: <001701be7c2a$849e7380$5b441d26 default> From: "Frederick J Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Chasing Light Leptons with a Magnetic Separator Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 03:28:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"r9ueW3.0.3j3.Ngq0t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26697 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For your mastication/indigestion, Horace. :-) Using a Cathode Ray Tube (CRT) for detecting LLs assuming 0.5 ev rest mass/energy (8.88E-37 kg) and 9.1E-31 kg for the electron: Mrel = Mo[(E'/0.5)+1] Mo = 0.5/c^2 The Deflection D = CRT Constants/Mrel*c^2 for the LLs and CRT Constants/Me*v^2 for the electron. You will find that in a range of 500 to 20,000 volts the deflection for the LLs will range from 6.6 million to 42 million times the deflection of the electron for a given CRT Constant. :-) So for a 0.1 millimeter electron beam deflection....! :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 06:11:33 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA00372; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 06:06:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 06:06:58 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990401090648.007b6cf0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 09:06:48 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: APS cold fusion session Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"5iH6M1.0.O5._rt0t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26698 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little asks: "Was [McKubre's] work with the unique Arata cathode mentioned?" Only briefly. He covered a lot of ground in ten minutes! In the informal session I think he said they ran two DS cathodes suppled to them by Arata, and both produced large excess heat and helium. The cathode cost $16,000 each. The DS cathodes made at SRI did not work. Earlier, Scott asked: "Did he get around to the first-rumored ‘cold fusion is real' or the Dallas Morning New's ‘I'm thinking about switching fields'?" I asked him about that. He has always said cold fusion is real. That is no rumor. The evidence for it is overwhelming. During a one-hour interview with the Dallas Morning News, he said many positive things and he made many important statements about the science. He also made one or two pessimistic, offhand comments, that he sometimes feels discouraged and thinks about quitting. The reporter zeroed in on the negative comments and ignored everything else. Still, he may seriously the thinking of quitting at times. You would have to ask him directly. I do not think he knows himself how seriously he meant that. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 06:50:17 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA07039; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 06:31:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 06:31:55 -0800 Message-ID: <37039E99.7CEA1319 sunherald.infi.net> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 08:28:09 -0800 From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: transluminal propulsion References: <3.0.6.32.19990331201441.007a5a10 mail.ap.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FzJoe2.0.vj1.RDu0t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26699 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: mrb ap.net wrote: > He also argues that the notion of human occupants of transluminal > spacecraft is unlikely due to the incredible acceleration requirements. Hmmm...Seems like he needs to study up on the actual requirements for superluminal travel. You will need some way of warping space, and if you do that, you can control very easily the acceleration effects felt by humans. For example: you could accelerate at 100,000g's, and with a propulsive warp somewhat like Alcubierre's, you would feel no acceleration stress. As far as getting to superluminal without warping space...the only plausible way you could that we are aware of is to lower the local e0 and u0 of the physical vacuum. Other than that, time dilation and energy increase will prevent you from accomplishing anything. Now, if you could prevent them, and probably the Lorentz contraction as well, you might have something. Kyle R. Mcallister From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 06:59:26 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA11120; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 06:48:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 06:48:02 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: sonoluminescence breakthrough? Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:50:38 -0500 Message-ID: <19990401145038250.AAA206 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id GAA11085 Resent-Message-ID: <"j6vii.0.bj2.XSu0t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26700 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Peter, >Dear Vortexers, >Sonoluminescence is closely related to cold fusion, therefore the following >paper in Nature (I hope it is not an April 1 joke!) could be interesting for us: > >Hilgenfeldt, Grossmann, Lohse : A simple explanation of light emission >in sonoluminescence" Nature, 398, 6726, 1 April1999. > >Plus a comment at: > >Sonoluminescence: And there was light! >by Robert Apfel. > >Can a kind member of our noble guild take a look and tell what's this all >about? >Thank you in advance! >Peter This was in today's MSNBC. The author, Alan Boyle, starts off by saying that sonoluminescence was discovered 10 years ago. What a boob. The rest is partially correct, quoting several of the cavitation heavyweights, but they left out Putterman, Hiller, Barber and others who have already decided, proven, and patented methods that show that cavitation DOES produce fusion under the right conditions. There is nothing here that is very new or exciting. It must be funding request time again :-) -Knuke THE PHENOMENON of sonoluminescence was first detected 10 years ago: Experimenters found that ultrasonically driven bubbles of gas within water emitted tiny flashes of light — perhaps 20,000 flashes per second, with each one lasting mere trillionths of a second. Could this be an example of quantum vacuum energy? Minute ice crystals cracking and re-forming? Cold fusion at work? Electron tunneling? Some sort of weird electrical discharge? All these theories were considered, and the 1996 action-thriller “Chain Reaction” even used explosive sonoluminescence as a hook for its scientists-vs.-conspiracy plot. In recent years, the wilder theories about the “star in a jar” have been gradually winnowed out, and research reported in Thursday’s issue of the journal Nature puts the phenomenon purely in the context of conventional hydrodynamics, chemistry and plasma physics. “I think the mystery is resolved,” said one of the authors, physicist Detlef Lohse of the University of Twente in the Netherlands. “But clearly there’s more work to do on the subject, to test the theory in different regimes.” A SIMPLE PLAN Lohse and his colleagues in the research — Sascha Hilgenfeldt of Harvard University and Siegfried Grossmann of the University of Marburg in Germany — worked out a relatively simple theoretical model that roughly matched the observations. In fact, other researchers in the field worry that it’s too simple. More on that later. Here’s what happens: During the “trough” of a sound wave, the bubble grows from about 5 microns — that’s millionths of a meter — to 70 microns, about the thickness of a human hair. As the sound wave enters a compressive phase, the bubble crashes in on itself, powered by the inertia of the surrounding water. It retains its spherical shape, maximizing the implosive power of the collapse. This image, provided by University of Washington researcher Tom Matula, shows a flash of light within a dark bubble that is about 100 millionths of a meter wide. Gas caught inside the bubble is rapidly compressed, reaching temperatures of 40,000 or 50,000 degrees Fahrenheit — that’s enough to create a plasma of ions, neutral atoms and electrons. Most of the gas is burned off or dissolves in the surrounding fluid, leaving only noble gases such as argon. As the point of maximum compression passes, the bubble inflates once again. The plasma cools and gives off a flash of photons. Then the gas dissipates, and a new acoustic cycle begins. “When you take these various bits and pieces in the puzzle and you integrate them together you can actually make quantitative predictions and find that they are right on the mark,” said Robert Apfel, a Yale engineering professor who wrote a commentary on the research for Nature. NOT SO SIMPLE Apfel, Lohse and other researchers, however, emphasized that it was far too early to close the book on sonoluminesce. One of the pioneers in the field, University of Washington physicist Lawrence Crum, worried that the explanation oversimplified one of the most intriguing, complex natural phenomena to turn up in decades. “I’m a little bit concerned that this will turn off a lot of people in the field,” he said. Willy Moss, a researcher at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory who has long guided experimenters in the field and claims authorship of the phrase “star in a jar,” acknowledged that some people would find the new research disappointing. “Even though that was the obvious explanation, there were other people who wanted other explanations,” he said. “You want the explanation to be exotic because then you get a Nobel Prize.” Nevertheless, even Lohse contends there are puzzles yet to be addressed. “It’s clearly not new physics, but nonetheless you can create an exotic state, and the direction in the future will be to create more extreme conditions,” he said. Crum said researchers had not yet fully investigated whether sonoluminescence occurred in liquids other than water — for example, in liquid metals. Other promising avenues for research could include “goosing” the bubble’s collapse to boost the plasma’s power, scaling up the size of bubbles, even experimenting with heavy water and deuterium gas to see if a hot-fusion reaction would result. “Basically, the conclusion is that table-top thermonuclear fusion may not be impossible. I’m not going to go so far as to say it’s possible, but it’s going to require a detailed study of the system. ... Nature doesn’t want to do it,” said Moss, who in this instance was referring to the physical universe rather than the magazine. In any case, the researchers said studying sonoluminescence provides a low-cost way to gain insights that can be used on bigger scales, perhaps leading to future breakthroughs in fusion research. “What this system does is, it gives the average researcher access to densities, temperatures and time scales that previously could be achieved only with $400 million systems,” Moss said. “It allows any scientist access to some of these conditions.” Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive Lady Lake, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 07:28:52 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA25395; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 07:23:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 07:23:38 -0800 Message-ID: <37038FCE.6A4D interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 10:25:02 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2 w/K glow discharge References: <90aabaac.3702c604 aol.com> <3702F386.5894@interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yOrwP2.0.SC6.tzu0t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26701 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince, I took a couple more data points with my 100 VA neon sign xfmr which may be similar to your oil burner unit. Data so far: Load volts load amps load power copper loss only VAC AC amps watts watts (sec + pri) 0.0 (short) 0.018 zero 14.29 190.2 (10K) 0.019 3.61 14.79 456 (24.25K) 0.0188 8.57 14.48 636 (34.25K) 0.0186 11.8 14.19 ^ (these are the load resistors) I have no idea what the core losses are doing, but things seem to get better as the load voltage, and thus, the load power go up. Note that over this range I could test, the xfmr acts like a constant- current supply. I took this data with a DMM so it's only so good. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 07:43:46 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA05077; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 07:38:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 07:38:51 -0800 From: mrb ap.net Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990401074028.007d52a0 mail.ap.net> X-Sender: mrb mail.ap.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 07:40:28 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: transluminal propulsion In-Reply-To: <37039E99.7CEA1319 sunherald.infi.net> References: <3.0.6.32.19990331201441.007a5a10 mail.ap.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"RRXlj2.0.BF1.BCv0t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26702 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:28 AM 4/1/99 -0800, you wrote: >mrb ap.net wrote: > >> He also argues that the notion of human occupants of transluminal >> spacecraft is unlikely due to the incredible acceleration requirements. > >Hmmm...Seems like he needs to study up on the actual requirements for >superluminal travel. You will need some way of warping space, and if you >do that, you can control very easily the acceleration effects felt by >humans. For example: you could accelerate at 100,000g's, and with a >propulsive warp somewhat like Alcubierre's, you would feel no >acceleration stress. As far as getting to superluminal without warping >space...the only plausible way you could that we are aware of is to >lower the local e0 and u0 of the physical vacuum. Other than that, time >dilation and energy increase will prevent you from accomplishing >anything. Now, if you could prevent them, and probably the Lorentz >contraction as well, you might have something. > >Kyle R. Mcallister > > Carroll believed his alternative physics successfully refuted relativity. Almost all other approaches to transluminal propulsion accept relativity. He spent 50 years as a mathematical physicist seeking a path to practical superluminal space flight. Only experiments will determine if he may have been correct. His books lay out some interesting possibilities. His last was entitled "Beyond the Farthest Star" and can be found on his website, http://pride-net.com/physics/ - where he posted it prior to his death. There is also a parallel mathematical treatise. Mark Goldes From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 09:13:03 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA11661; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:08:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:08:36 -0800 Message-ID: <001501be7c62$3aa9d340$44441d26 default> From: "Frederick J Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Chasing Light Leptons with a Magnetic/Electrostatic Separator Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:07:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"XJ7RE1.0.5s2.JWw0t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26703 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I Goofed,Horace, First time Ever. :-) Forgot to square the electron velocity for the Cathode Ray Tube (CRT) exercise. This means that [CRT Constants/Mrel*c^2]for the LLs vs [CRT Constants/Me*v^2] for electrons is a factor of about 2.0, from 500 volts to 20,000 volts, thus if their charge is the same as that of the electron they will be deflected twice as much as an electron at a given CRT configuration and accelerator/deflection voltages. Something to do with April 1st I guess. :-) This infers that one Might see LLs in a CRT if you can put the right voltages/pulses on the deflection plates. However, I think that you need the Protons or Deuterons and possibly the Potassium created in a discharge cell to create the LLs. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 09:21:09 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA15436; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:17:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:17:40 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:11:18 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 w/K glow discharge Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Resent-Message-ID: <"ABNSE2.0._m3.pew0t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26704 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 03/31/1999 23:19:55 Pacific Standard Time, schaffermj yahoo.com writes: > The oil burner one might overheat if you run it for a while, even at > its rated load. I ran the thing for 3 hours at a (approx.) 100 watt input and yes, it got quite warm but not excessively so. Would think these things would have to be up to almost continuous duty, especially if you lived where Horace makes his home. If I smoke it I will obtain a neon sign transformer and start over. Hey, I'm retired now and have plenty of time on my hands. > > As I remember, your experiments last year ran several tens of watts, maybe > close to 100 W at times, at several hundred volts and 0.1 amp or more > current. You won't get this kind of current out of your low current ignition > transformer. Transformer spec plate says: Secondary 10kV at 23 milliamps. > You don't seem to be on the path to doing an AC equivalent of > your previous DC experiment. I'm not. If you remember, when I first started this investigation, I was using a flyback transformer ( a television type unit ) for HV supply but found it way too difficult to measure power, what with having to supply high frequency from a high power oscillator ( a vacuum tube unit). > I think you need to use the transformer from > the DC power supply you used last year. Consider adding a choke inductance > to limit the current surges. > === > Michael J. Schaffer Problem with that Michael is the transformer (a microwave oven unit) will only supply about 1.2 kV AC which ( I found) is not enough potential to get the arc going in the tube. I do want to try this with HV AC to the tube. My reasoning for this is possibly better mixing of the elements, H2 and K in the reactor tube. (which was my reason for trying HV high freq AC in the first place) So if I have to settle for 60 Hz instead of 15 kHz, with the 60 Hz much easier to measure input power, so be it. (It would be a nightmare measuring input power with the high power oscillator as the unit has about 18 vacuum tubes in it!) Thank you very much for your comments. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 09:22:36 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA16450; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:20:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:20:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3703AB82.BE4EDCF4 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 12:23:14 -0500 From: Terry Blanton Organization: Chaotic X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Conference on Free Energy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"72sKO1.0.q04.Thw0t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26705 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steven Greer?!? Is that wise? His presence could affect the perception of credibility of the entire conference. Even the UFO community considers him a bit of a flake. See: http://www.cseti.com/ Terry <><><><><><><><><><><><><> The First International Conference on Future Energy Holiday Inn, 8120 Wisconsin Ave., Bethesda, MD 20814 Washington, D.C., USA April 29-30, 1999 Workshops: May 1, '99 Hosted by Integrity Research Institute The objective of COFE is to: Educate the private and public sectors about free energy Demonstrate its capacity to perform work free of charge Explain how it is superior to centralized power generation Emphasize the planetary urgency for its adoption Broaden deregulation choices free of combustion-pollution Discuss the availability of various future energy systems Analyze energy science regarding input and output Twenty Exhibitors include: Solarex Solar Panels; Canyon Industries Hydroelectric Systems; Energy Information Adm. (DOE); Lightworks A/V; Infinite Energy, AZ Industries; FutureCar Team (U of Md); Breakthrough Technologies; U.S. Flywheel Assoc., U. S. Energy Association; Billings Corp.; Fuel Cell Institute; Integrity Research Institute; Friends of the Earth, Worldwatch Inst.; GEET; & more! Workshops (limited space): 1.(A) Dr. Gene Mallove "Assisted Nuclear Reactions" 2.(A) Ken Shoulders "Charge Clusters in Motion Q & A" 3.(A) Robert Rose "Breakthrough Tech: Fuel Cells" 4.(B) Dr. Paul Brown "Effective Rad. Waste Remediation" 5.(B) Drs. Bob Bass & George Miley "Deuterium & Nuclear" 6.(C) David Wallman "Biomass Solutions: Demonstration" 7.(C) Dr. Peter Graneau "Exper. Results of Arc Discharge" 8.(C) Chip Ransford "Nucleosynthesis Free Energy Details" 9.(D) Dr. Ed Storms "Technical Details of the New Method" 10.(D) Paul Pantone "GEET Clean Combustion Kit" 11.(D) Dr. Steven Greer "Evidence for Suppressed Free Energy" 12.(B)-TBA Scheduled Plenary Speakers: Dr. Paul Brown, "Betavoltaic Batteries" Dr. Edmund Storms, "New Method for Initiating Nuclear Reactions" (Los Alamos Labs) Dr. Dr. Steven Greer, "Evidence for Suppressed Free Energy" (CSETI) Les Adam, "Magnet Power and Non-Combustive Helicopters" (AZ Industries) Dr. Peter Graneau, "Release of Chemical Bond Energy" (Center For EM Research) David Wallman, "Carbon-Arc Gasification of Biomass Solutions" (NOVA Research) Dr. Ken Shoulders, "New Energetics" Dr. David Goodwin, "Summary of the Breakthrough Physics Conference" (DOE) Bruce Perrault, "Radiant Energy Generator" Chip Ransford, "Tabletop Nuclear Transmutation" Thomas Valone, "Understanding Zero Point Energy" (SUNYAB) Dr. Tom Van Flandern, "Complete Gravity Model and Free Energy" (Meta Research) James Griggs, "Hydrosonic Fluid Heater" (Hydrodynamics Corp.) Kent Robertson, "American Wind Energy" (American Wind Energy Association) Co-sponsored by Infinite Energy Magazine email: staff infinite-energy.com website: http://www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 09:38:39 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA22841; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:35:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:35:15 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <7953911.3703ad35 aol.com> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:30:29 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 w/K glow discharge Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Resent-Message-ID: <"zcQ1q2.0.ga5.Ivw0t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26706 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/01/1999 07:28:19 Pacific Standard Time, fstenger interlaced.net writes: > Vince, I took a couple more data points with my 100 VA neon sign xfmr > which may be similar to your oil burner unit. > Data so far: > Load volts load amps load power copper loss only > VAC AC amps watts watts (sec + pri) > 0.0 (short) 0.018 zero 14.29 > > 190.2 (10K) 0.019 3.61 14.79 > > 456 (24.25K) 0.0188 8.57 14.48 > > 636 (34.25K) 0.0186 11.8 14.19 > ^ > (these are the load resistors) > I have no idea what the core losses are doing, but things seem to get > better as the load voltage, and thus, the load power go up. > Note that over this range I could test, the xfmr acts like a constant- > current supply. Yes, Frank, Scott seems to feel that way also if I understood his post correctly. As I stated earlier, I am going to run as complete series of tests as I can to try to understand the characteristics of the transformer before I fire up the reactor tube. I really appreciate the series of calculations and tests you have run. It's a great help. > > I took this data with a DMM so it's only so good. > > Frank Stenger Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 09:40:24 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA23823; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:37:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:37:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3703AE86.DEB9238A erols.com> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 12:36:07 -0500 From: Andrew Meulenberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L CC: "Meulenberg, Andrew" Subject: Re: transluminal propulsion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ycN173.0.7q5.Uxw0t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26707 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle: you wrote - > Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 08:28:09 -0800 > From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" >As far as getting to superluminal without warping >space...the only plausible way you could that we are aware of is to >lower the local e0 and u0 of the physical vacuum. I have been interested in the local e0 and u0 of the physical vacuum, but have not had time to pursue it. Do you have any sources on the basis/cause/meaning of these values that you can recommend? It seems to me that the distortion of space should change these values. I am interested in the consequences. You mentioned the change in c, anything else? As matter approaches c and space distorts, does the velocity of light increase so that the limit is unreal and/or different? You see that I need more data before I speculate further. Thx again, Drew M. PS Who is the "we"? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 13:50:18 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA07599; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 13:41:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 13:41:03 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990401163946.007b5b30 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 16:39:46 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: APS cold fusion session - corrections Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"MbAjx.0.bs1.kV-0t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26708 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here are some corrections to mistakes and omissions caused by NatSpeak and by me. The McKubre quote should be: ". . . Mundane things in the deuterium-palladium system are apparently not reproducing, which means and there are components of our experiment which are outside of our experimental control." Reference 1: R. Stringham et al., "Predictable and reproducible heat," proceedings ICCF-7, p. 361 I discussed this paper with Stringham today. He does use static calorimetry, as I thought. The fluid is circulated through the cell and through a bubbler and filter, not in order to cool it so much as to clean it. In a typical recent run, the power supplies consumed 30 watts AC and produced 15 watts of waste heat. The reactor consumed 15 watts and output 40 watts. The cell is run for 24 hours with sonication power, followed by 24 hours with a joule heater set at the same power level. After three hours, a steady state temperature is achieved, measured by all thermocouples and the pyrometer, which agree closely. In the ICCF-7 paper, excess heat was observed consistently in 43 runs, and no excess was seen in 43 calibration runs. . . . samples of palladium. In this paper "How to perform the Pons Fleischmann experiment" Storms shows that palladium which expands more than 3% in any Should be: . . . In his paper, "How to Produce the Pons-Fleischmann Effect," [2] Storms . . . Reference 2: Fusion Technology, 1995 - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 15:02:57 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA01196; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 14:49:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 14:49:51 -0800 Message-Id: <199904012245.RAA04501 mercury.mv.net> Subject: New COFE Venue -- off Gov't property Date: Thu, 1 Apr 99 17:49:41 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA01174 Resent-Message-ID: <"GVq8B.0.cI.FW_0t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26709 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians: Tom Valone passed this to me. This is the new venue of COFE -- now out of the clutches of the science bigots in and out of government -- Zimmerman and Park. Gene Mallove ******* First International Conference on Future Energy Holiday Inn Bethesda Bethesda, MD, USA April 29-30, 1999 Workshops: May 1, 1999 Hosted by Integrity Research Institute The objective of COFE is to: Educate the private and public sectors about free energy Demonstrate its capacity to perform work free of charge Explain how it is superior to centralized power generation Emphasize the planetary urgency for its adoption Broaden deregulation choices free of combustion-pollution Analyze energy science regarding input and output Twenty Exhibitors include: Solarex Solar Panels; Canyon Industries Hydroelectric Systems; Energy Information Adm. (DOE); Lightworks A/V; Infinite Energy, AZ Industries; FutureCar Team (U of Md); Breakthrough Technologies; Magnetizer Inc., U. S. Energy Association; Billings Corp.; F uel Cell Institute; Integrity Research Institute; Friends of the Earth, Worldwatch Inst.; GEET; & more! Workshops: (A) Dr. Gene Mallove ³Assisted Nuclear Reactions² (A) Ken Shoulders ³Charge Clusters in Motion Q & A² (A) Jack Bitterly ³Flywheels: Future Energy Storage² (B) Robert Rose / Les Adam: ³Fuel Cells / New Energy² (B) Dr. Paul Brown ³Effective Rad. Waste Remediation² (B) Drs. Bob Bass / George Miley ³Deuterium / Nuclear² ---?? (C) David Wallman ³Biomass Solutions: Demonstration² (C) Dr. Peter Graneau ³Exper. Results of Arc Discharge² (C) Chip Ransford ³Nucleosynthesis Free Energy Details² (D) Dr. Ed Storms ³Technical Details of the New Method² (D) Paul Pantone ³GEET Clean Combustion Kit² (D) Dr. Greer ³Evidence for Suppression² Scheduled Plenary Speakers: Dr. Paul Brown, ³Betavoltaic Batteries² Dr. Edmund Storms, ³New Method for Initiating Nuclear Reactions² (Los Alamos Labs) Dr. Steven Greer, ³Evidence for Suppression of Free Energy² Les Adam, ³Magnet Power and Non-Combustive Helicopters² (AZ Industries) Dr. Peter Graneau, ³Release of Chemical Bond Energy² (Center For EM Research) David Wallman, ³Carbon-Arc Gasification of Biomass Solutions² (DW Energy Research) Dr. Ken Shoulders, ³Charge Clusters in Motion² (Somerset Power Corp.) Dr. David Goodwin, ³Summary of the Breakthrough Physics Conference² (DOE) Bruce Perrault, ³Radiant Energy Generator² Chip Ransford, ³Tabletop Nuclear Transmutation² Thomas Valone, ³Understanding Zero Point Energy² (Integrity Research Institute) Dr. Tom Van Flandern, ³Complete Gravity Model and Free Energy² (Meta Research) James Griggs, ³Hydrosonic Fluid Heater² (Hydrodynamics Corp.) Kent Robertson, ³American Wind Energy² Co-sponsored by Infinite Energy Magazine email: website: http://www.infinite-energy.com The First International Conference on Future Energy Integrity Research Institute, Washington, DC presents the first COFE at the Holiday Inn Bethesda, 8120 Wisconsin Ave., Bethesda MD 20814. Lectures will extend from 9 AM to 5 PM daily and workshops on Saturday from 9 AM to 5 PM. The Exhibit Hall is upstair s from the Washington Room. A separate Video/Book Room showing continuous energy documentary videos both days. Call agent early for airline reservations to the conference: 800-777-8747. Other hotels which have space available are the Bethesda Court Hotel 800-874-0050 and the Ramada Inn 301-941-2706. =============================================================== Conference Notes: Videotapes. Professional quality videotapes of each speaker will be available after the conference. Workshops. Saturday two-hour sessions are scheduled in parallel (A,B,C,D) $30. Admission. There is a small registration charge for this conference. This $60 fee (daily fee is one half) has been assessed to help defray conference expenses. Hotel. Holiday Inn Bethesda 301-652-2000; and Bethesda Court 800-874-0050 (group #4299); American Inn 800-323-7081; Ramada 301-941-2703 all within 2 blocks. Travel. Ericson Travel (COFE Official Agent) has deep discount travel and hotels available (301-595-7999, 800-777-8747).<<<< Reception. Pre-conference speaker reception in the Delaware Room 7-10 PM April 28, Wednesday night. Entertainment. Bethesda Theater CafÈ; The Bethesda Yacht Club; Lots of nightclubs and restaurants within walking distance. COFE Registration Form Cost Registration Fee: only $30/day = $60 Proceedings of COFE bound book (at pre-conference price) $35 ea. x___= $___ Banquet ñ Friday night $30 ea. = $___ Workshops -indicate choices by number and letter:___________$30 ea. x___= $___ Videotapes__________$20 ea. x___= $___ Total: $___ Use check / money order / MC/VISA/Novus/AmEx Acct # ____________________________Ex_____ Name ____________________________________ Address __________________________________ City _____________________State____Zip______ Country _______________Phone ______________ Please use one form for each person attending and send completed registration to: Integrity Research Inst., 1422 K St. NW, Suite 204, Washington, DC 20005 202-452-7674 (800-295-7674) FAX: 301-513-5728 email The Holiday Inn Bethesda is Metro (subway) accessible. Use Bethesda or Med Ctr stop - walk 3 blocks. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 15:53:58 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA00885; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:44:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:44:58 -0800 From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: transluminal propulsion Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 23:44:23 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <37050455.171364515 mail-hub> References: <3.0.6.32.19990331201441.007a5a10 mail.ap.net> <3.0.6.32.19990401074028.007d52a0@mail.ap.net> In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990401074028.007d52a0 mail.ap.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA00864 Resent-Message-ID: <"7LlAq3.0.lD.wJ01t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26710 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 01 Apr 1999 07:40:28 -0800, mrb ap.net wrote: [snip] >been correct. His books lay out some interesting possibilities. His last >was entitled "Beyond the Farthest Star" and can be found on his website, >http://pride-net.com/physics/ - where he posted it prior to his death. >There is also a parallel mathematical treatise. > >Mark Goldes I love this guys caustic sense of humour. A short quote from "Arcturus by dawn": "At the present time, the physicists view of creation appears to be that Einstein did it. " Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 17:06:21 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA27113; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:57:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:57:12 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <21223c40.24356f68 aol.com> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:55:04 EST Subject: Re: H2 w/K glow discharge To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: Verdian aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"XRe9c2.0.Zd6.dN11t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26711 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Below are the results of today's (Thursday) testing to establish baseline parameters for the power measuring equipment. Scott, I took your advice and bought the Radio Shack meter and used it to monitor current for the testing. April 1, 1999 Resistive load test of watt-hour meter. Current monitored by digital multimeter Radio Shack model 22-168A. Voltage monitored by digital multimeter Fluke model 8060A/AA. Watt-hour meter is a Westinghouse Type CS 120VAC 15 amp 60 Hz. Specs for the Radio Shack meter current are +/- 3.5%. The specs for the Fluke are somewhat better but I can't locate them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------- Test set 1. Resistive loads. Input voltage 121.5 Air temp 55 f. Standard incandescent lamps were used as loads. Lamp-------Milliamps--------V*I---------Wattmeter ---15--------------128----------15.55-----------13.75 ---25--------------200----------24.30-----------24.51 ---40--------------330----------40.09-----------39.41 ---55--------------470-----------57.10----------56.20 ---60--------------510-----------61.96----------60.59 ---95--------------780-----------94.77----------95.59 ---100------------820-----------99.63----------97.85 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------- Test set 2. Inductive load. Input voltage 121.5 Air temp 56 f. Ignition transformer used as a load. Nameplate specifications: Primary 120 v 60 Hz 250 Voltamps. (VA) Secondary 10,000 v 23 milliamps. Test was conducted at eleven different spark gaps lengths and with the secondary both shorted and open circuit. Spark gap length is expressed in inches. ---Spark Gap-----Amperes----------V*I-----------Wattmeter ---shorted-------------2.03-------------246.64------------34.16 ---0.100-----------------2.05-------------249.07------------40.44 ---0.200-----------------2.13-------------258.79------------45.66 ---0.300-----------------2.07-------------251.50------------48.98 ---0.400-----------------1.96-------------238.14------------52.43 ---0.500-----------------1.96-------------238.14------------60.09 ---0.600-----------------1.94-------------235.71------------60.10 ---0.700-----------------1.90-------------230.85------------64.53 ---0.800-----------------1.87-------------227.20------------66.42 ---0.900-----------------1.84-------------223.56------------71.47 ---1.000-----------------1.80-------------218.70------------75.94 ---1.100-----------------1.76-------------213.84------------79.34 ---open-----------------0.42---------------51.03------------12.32 Noted: (1) spark would not sustain with a gap larger than 1.1 inch (2) inductive loads cannot be measured with an ammeter ! Comments most welcome. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 17:44:40 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA28410; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:37:49 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:37:49 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Annihilation photons Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 01:31:10 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <37071d54.177764410 mail-hub> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id RAA28389 Resent-Message-ID: <"9Ewnu1.0.px6.hz11t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26712 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Does anyone know if the gamma photons, created when an electron and a positron annihilate, have opposite polarisations? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 19:41:06 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA06457; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:37:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:37:25 -0800 Message-Id: <199904020333.WAA01427 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: APS cold fusion session Date: Thu, 1 Apr 99 22:37:10 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"7DFqn.0.pa1.qj31t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26713 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Thanks Jed for the very encouraging report from the APS conference, and to >Gene Mallove for the Anniversary Issue of IE. These things are so positive >and motivating. Thank you very much, Horrace. Gene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 20:41:54 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA24241; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 20:36:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 20:36:38 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990401223924.008de100 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 22:39:24 -0600 To: VCockeram aol.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: H2 w/K glow discharge Cc: Verdian aol.com In-Reply-To: <21223c40.24356f68 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"XEM7n3.0.dw5.Mb41t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26714 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:55 PM 4/1/99 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: >Lamp-------Milliamps------------V*I---------Wattmeter >---15-------------128----------15.55---------13.75 >---25-------------200----------24.30---------24.51 >---40-------------330----------40.09---------39.41 >---55-------------470----------57.10---------56.20 >---60-------------510----------61.96---------60.59 >---95-------------780----------94.77---------95.59 >---100------------820----------99.63---------97.85 Wow, Vince! Your watthour meter works just great. I'm going to have to order a new one! In view of these results, just take the watthour meter's reading at "face" value. >---Spark Gap---------Amperes----------V*I-----------Wattmeter >---shorted------------2.03-------------246.64------------34.16 >---0.100--------------2.05-------------249.07------------40.44 >---0.200--------------2.13-------------258.79------------45.66 Wow again. I'm amazed that the xfmr-spark arrangement has such a low power factor (ratio of true power to VA). In the absence of confirming measurements, I think you have to trust the watthour meter here. Hmmmmm! I may have some interesting data to share on this tomorrow. Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 21:23:11 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA02616; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 21:18:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 21:18:23 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:17:27 EST Subject: Re: H2 w/K glow discharge To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: Verdian aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"aq7q02.0.oe.VC51t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26715 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 03/31/1999 21:18:58 Pacific Standard Time, little eden.com writes: [discussing measuring an inductive loads] > Just for fun, use the meters on the fan, too. I predict that its V*I > product is pretty close to 60 watts...when a motor is properly loaded, it > loses most/all of its inductance. > Scott Little > EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 > 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) > little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little Scott, I forgot to test the fan this afternoon and did so ran a test with the meters this evening...score you a perfect 100 on this one. Here are the results: V = 120 AC, I = 0.5, V*I = 60 fan normal configuration. V = 120 AC, I = 0.44, V*I = 52.8 removed fan blades. V = 120 AC, I = 0.64, V*I = 73.2 locked rotor. Did not run this quick test with watt-hour meter connected Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 21:58:42 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA12169; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 21:55:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 21:55:43 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE7CE6.BA629DE0 cc1.itim-cj.ro> From: Peter Gluck To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: New COFE Venue -- off Gov't property Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:56:41 +-300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BE7CE6.BA629DE0" Resent-Message-ID: <"3chFr2.0.3-2.Ul51t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26716 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7CE6.BA629DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Gene, Was not a conference by Prof. Deborah D.L Chung , Buffalo U. re. = negative resistance of carbon fibers also scheduled here? Her paper is due for = publication in any case, I think. No news from prof Chung..it seemed to be = interesting? Peter ---------- From: E.F. Mallove Sent: 01 April 1999 20:49 PM To: VORTEX Subject: New COFE Venue -- off Gov't property Vortexians: Tom Valone passed this to me. This is the new venue of COFE -- now out = of the clutches of the science bigots in and out of government -- = Zimmerman and Park. Gene Mallove ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7CE6.BA629DE0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IioFAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAHAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAARQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHZvcnRleC1sQGVza2lt by5jb20AU01UUAB2b3J0ZXgtbEBlc2tpbW8uY29tAAAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAD MAEAAAAUAAAAdm9ydGV4LWxAZXNraW1vLmNvbQADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAWAAAA J3ZvcnRleC1sQGVza2ltby5jb20nAAAAAgELMAEAAAAZAAAAU01UUDpWT1JURVgtTEBFU0tJTU8u Q09NAAAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAACMDMBBIABACkAAABSRTogTmV3 IENPRkUgVmVudWUgLS0gb2ZmIEdvdid0IHByb3BlcnR5ANwMAQWAAwAOAAAAzwcEAAIACAA4ACkA BQBKAQEggAMADgAAAM8HBAACAAgAMgACAAUAHQEBCYABACEAAAA2M0FFNjA5QUNFRThEMjExQTg4 MDAwODBBRDE4NEM2MwAjBwEDkAYAYAQAABQAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4A AAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AIAyO5TNfL4BHgBwAAEAAAApAAAAUkU6IE5ldyBDT0ZFIFZlbnVlIC0t IG9mZiBHb3YndCBwcm9wZXJ0eQAAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABvnzNlDuaYK5k6M4R0qiAAICtGExj AAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAFgAAAHBldGVyZ0BvYzEuaXRpbS1jai5ybwAA AAMABhCYlPesAwAHELQBAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABERUFSR0VORSxXQVNOT1RBQ09ORkVSRU5DRUJZ UFJPRkRFQk9SQUhETENIVU5HLEJVRkZBTE9VUkVORUdBVElWRVJFU0lTVEFOQ0VPRkNBUkJPTkZJ QkVSU0FMU09TQ0hFRFVMAAAAAAIBCRABAAAAwAIAALwCAADKBAAATFpGdYBGunj/AAoBDwIVAqQD 5AXrAoMAUBMDVAIAY2gKwHNldO4yBgAGwwKDMgPGBxMCg7ozEw19CoAIzwnZOxX/eDI1NQKACoEN sQtgbnJnAdA1Nwr7EvIMAWNRAEAgRGUKwUcJ8GWSLAqFV2EEIG5vBUBkYSAFoG5mBJAJ8GNAZSBi eSBQA2BmRi4a0QbgcmFoGtAuIEwgQ2h1GQAgLBggQnUN0AdAbyBVDx2wFgAdsBtQZ2F0adx2ZQqF H7EAkHMBkB0CHx2QHIAKwAbgA6BmaWK3BJAEIAdAcx9wBPBoCYA0dWwJgCAjMBYAPyBqSASQIAqw cCQhBAAgryNQHSACECQxdQJgaSHg3yBAAiAghguAHGBuHVAh4EMR8B7wSSB0aAuAa+0dsE4fcBtQ dwQgA1IkQGMdgR6ELi5pBUAR8GW7B4AjkHQfcCJwJoF0HNHTIUALgGc/CoVQEgAEkEcKhQqLJZAx ODAC0WnwLTE0NA3wDNAt4wtZXDE2CqADYCqgYwVALV8wBwqHLrsMMC+GRgNhOocxDi+GDIIgRS5G HbD+TQdAFZAgZzEfL4YGYAIwazLvM/swGsBBKMADETFKOTpAIAHQOjQ6YFBmTTWPMb1UbzfPM/tW 4E9SVEVYOw82niVwHmovwT0vM/sHwkNPRn5FPvAJ8CTxMAAhoSHAR501UCcFQCjBJHF0eSwPeS0T MzYuhxQiDAEvhlbZFaFleAcwAIA6Rfw9AP0ooFYfURtQJEEEECnyJ5DvBCAqIQeAHbBUS7JLwiMw /SgSICBgRGIo4kQCRKEcMF8H4AhgBUAhsUziYwpAdD8jIQQgTvUE8AiQHQNpZ/8cQEyRJqIjkE61 UQAgYASgtweAAjBEkloHcAeAcgOC/VGCUArAJ8BF/BsyNQ1Gb18uhxo1L4YKhRUhAFmQAwAQEAAA AAADABEQAAAAAEAABzCAY9CmzHy+AUAACDCAY9CmzHy+AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAwAN NP03AAC6Mg== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7CE6.BA629DE0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 22:14:58 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA15029; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 22:12:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 22:12:01 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE7CE9.0ABF83A0 cc1.itim-cj.ro> From: Peter Gluck To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: sonoluminescence breakthrough? Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:13:15 +-300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BE7CE9.0AC724C0" Resent-Message-ID: <"VDlky2.0.lg3.m-51t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26717 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7CE9.0AC724C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you Knuke! I think we have to study the original publication in order to judge if it is an over-simplification or not. My personal opinion is that Nature (not the journal!) prefers to be interesting, much more than easily understable and SL, exactly as CF or photosynthesis is anything but simple. One of our local libraries receives Nature (the journal) with a delay of one week-- if you are subscribed you can download the paper from . Gratefully, Peter ---------- From: Michael T Huffman Sent: 01 April 1999 17:50 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: sonoluminescence breakthrough? Hi Peter, >the message deleted according to the rules of Vortex< ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7CE9.0AC724C0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhAGAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAHAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAARQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHZvcnRleC1sQGVza2lt by5jb20AU01UUAB2b3J0ZXgtbEBlc2tpbW8uY29tAAAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAD MAEAAAAUAAAAdm9ydGV4LWxAZXNraW1vLmNvbQADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAWAAAA J3ZvcnRleC1sQGVza2ltby5jb20nAAAAAgELMAEAAAAZAAAAU01UUDpWT1JURVgtTEBFU0tJTU8u Q09NAAAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAACMDMBBIABACMAAABSRTogc29u b2x1bWluZXNjZW5jZSBicmVha3Rocm91Z2g/ABANAQWAAwAOAAAAzwcEAAIACQANAA8ABQAGAQEg gAMADgAAAM8HBAACAAkAAwAGAAUA8wABCYABACEAAAA2QkFFNjA5QUNFRThEMjExQTg4MDAwODBB RDE4NEM2MwAyBwEDkAYA0AQAABQAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMA NgAAAAAAQAA5AACqueTPfL4BHgBwAAEAAAAjAAAAUkU6IHNvbm9sdW1pbmVzY2VuY2UgYnJlYWt0 aHJvdWdoPwAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAb58z+S5mmCubOjOEdKogACArRhMYwAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAA U01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAABYAAABwZXRlcmdAb2MxLml0aW0tY2oucm8AAAADAAYQ3itzSQMABxAt AgAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAAVEhBTktZT1VLTlVLRUlUSElOS1dFSEFWRVRPU1RVRFlUSEVPUklHSU5B TFBVQkxJQ0FUSU9OSU5PUkRFUlRPSlVER0VJRklUSVNBTk9WRVItU0lNUExJRklDQVRJT05PUk5P VAAAAAACAQkQAQAAADgDAAA0AwAAagUAAExaRnU3S7Hi/wAKAQ8CFQKkA+QF6wKDAFATA1QCAGNo CsBzZXTuMgYABsMCgzIDxgcTAoO6MxMNfQqACM8J2TsV/3gyNTUCgAqBDbELYG5yZwHQNTcK+xLy DAFjCQBAIFQRwG5rIHkBCGAgS251a2UhYQqFSSB0aAuAGyB3FGUgEcB2HOB0byDgc3R1ZHkcYRzg BbCMaWcLgAdAIHB1AmCgaWNhdGkCICALgNceEQSBHUJqHaBnHOAGkLcfYAVABAAgAHAKhW8dIPRy LQCQbQtQBpAe9gWxsG5vdC4F0B3AcASQ5nMCIB6Bb3ALgB8zBCC/HHAfEAewHxAIcBzgKCMhTR3T aghhHnEhKQqFcO0WAGYjsR1CYiBxAjAEkIcHkB8gGQAsIG11EbCPKNAFsB0xGvEgZWEAkHJsHcB1 bgSBHYABoGwrHOAAcGQGAEwowGV4DQDQdCoRKeAgQ0YgiyFGJxFoIzBvc3kCMK8d8ACQBCAg83kc cmcn0CZ1BUAiA2UuCoVPbvceASCgCGEgFZAfAAMgHuA8YnIKwAiQBCAWAGNlnmkdIAehJUUl+Skg HMDzIMApEGEgDbALYB3AMBLDL+Ec0GVrLS0KhSCR9xtCCsAc4HMewATyJ+ArIIcbQh8AA6Bkb3du FZBeYSsgHeIKsCOhIANSILQ8dzjwLh5wJVIuBaA0bT4vVkcxECgwZnXqbCoQLAqFUBIABJAKhSMK ix7gMTgwAtFpLXgxNDQN8AzQPbMLWTHeNgqgA2AoMCuwIDTwP9avCoc+iwwwP1ZGA2E6QN5/P1YM ggXQHvARwDPwGtAg/Eh1DdADgUB/QY0GYAIwa0K/Q8swGsBBJzADETGGOUpgSkA3OjUwO3BmTUWv QY1Ub0fvQ8t2oxWhK4AtbEAHkGsHcN5vOZJLL0a+HsBqP5FNTzlDy1JlUsAj0QbwdW13C4AHkDGg bjGgJ9AWAGGGaxxwA2B1Z2g/O995POMzNj5XFCIMAT9WSN5pO3Q7BlevWL8+Gb8awPMd4geBc2Eg YTPhO5ErILsA0AWhZC5yHVEd4nI6wOsHkTARVk8zPFz9P1YKhQUVIQBjkAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAA AABAAAcwINIees58vgFAAAgwINIees58vgEeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAMADTT9NwAALWM= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7CE9.0AC724C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 22:28:40 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA17193; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 22:21:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 22:21:09 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <4621c1dc.2435bb70 aol.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 01:19:28 EST Subject: Re: H2 w/K glow discharge To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"agdLb3.0.VC4.K761t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26718 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/01/1999 20:02:49 Pacific Standard Time, fstenger interlaced.net writes: > >VCockeram aol.com wrote: > > Noted: (1) spark would not sustain with a gap larger than 1.1 inch > > (2) inductive loads cannot be measured with an ammeter ! > > > > Comments most welcome. > > More detail on Note (2), Vince. Did you try to measure the load > current with a digital meter? No, I measured _input_ to the transformer primary winding. > Maybe current has arc noise keeping digital from registering? Noise reflected back through the transformer windings to the meter on the primary? > Since we don't have a high-energy pinching arc, I would think the arc load is NOT very > inductive - but may be very jumpy. can you get the arc current with a mechanical meter? > I don't think I want to try that. I will just go with the watt-hour meter and figure the transformer as 92% efficient (Pri - 120v 250 VA, Sec 10kV 23 mA) and figure for example a 100 watt input to transformer gives me an 80 watt arc. Does that sound right? > If you can safely read the load voltage (is one side ground?)... No it's a center tap grounded secondary > it would be neat to "scope" both the load voltage and current and look for: > 1. Waveform > 2. Phase angle, if any. A pickup coil of a couple of turns of wire around one of the HV leads, scoped differentially with a dual trace scope would do that. I will try it for grins. Sadly my Minolta XD-11 camera has had a seizure of the main circuit board and can't be fixed as it would be nice to get some scope pictures to share with all. > If the waveform is still sinusoidal AND IN PHASE, then you could just > figure power from the RMS I x V product. The arc voltage may only > be 1000 volts or so, +/- a few hundred... don't you think? It's getting more and more like the watt-hour meter is going to do a good job. Yes the arc voltage probably will be down in the 1kV range but I worry about damage to equipment when the arc is started, up at 10kV. Once burned twice shy. I have already slagged two digital meters with the old DC supply and I treasure the few I have left. > It would be nice to see even a rough value for the arc power. > Frank Stenger Thanks for the coments/suggestions Frank. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 1 22:58:35 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA23629; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 22:53:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 22:53:41 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 01:52:53 EST Subject: Re: H2 w/K glow discharge To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"3_Gt91.0.7n5.rb61t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26719 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 03/31/1999 23:19:55 Pacific Standard Time, schaffermj yahoo.com writes: > As I remember, your experiments last year ran several tens of watts, maybe > close to 100 W at times, at several hundred volts and 0.1 amp or more > current. You won't get this kind of current out of your low current ignition > transformer. > === > Michael J. Schaffer I looked back through my lab notebook and found a run H2 w/K dated 5-12-98 and the arc DC current was between 36.5 mA and 46 mA, and the voltage between 1500 and 1600 volts DC. I hope the transformer will do the job. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 2 04:44:10 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA19427; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 04:40:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 04:40:30 -0800 Message-Id: <199904021236.HAA00914 mercury.mv.net> Subject: RE: New COFE Venue -- off Gov't property Date: Fri, 2 Apr 99 07:40:19 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"wIsqf2.0.Tl4.-gB1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26720 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Dear Gene, >Was not a conference by Prof. Deborah D.L Chung , Buffalo U. re. negative > resistance of carbon fibers also scheduled here? Her paper is due for >publication > in any case, I think. No news from prof Chung..it seemed to be interesting? >Peter Peter, Prof. Chung is scheduled to speak at the COFE conference, as far as I know -- unless she was scared off by Park-Zimmerman et al. Gene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 2 04:46:12 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA21122; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 04:45:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 04:45:14 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE7D1F.EFC250A0 cc1.itim-cj.ro> From: Peter Gluck To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: New COFE Venue -- off Gov't property Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 15:46:11 +-300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BE7D1F.EFC250A0" Resent-Message-ID: <"cPCu5.0.y95.QlB1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26721 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7D1F.EFC250A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Gene, I have not seen her name in the last program! Hope she comes and tells us interesting things. best wishes, Peter ---------- From: E.F. Mallove Sent: 02 April 1999 10:40 AM To: VORTEX Subject: RE: New COFE Venue -- off Gov't property >Dear Gene, >Was not a conference by Prof. Deborah D.L Chung , Buffalo U. re. negative > resistance of carbon fibers also scheduled here? Her paper is due for >publication > in any case, I think. No news from prof Chung..it seemed to be interesting? >Peter Peter, Prof. Chung is scheduled to speak at the COFE conference, as far as I know -- unless she was scared off by Park-Zimmerman et al. Gene ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7D1F.EFC250A0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+Ig0MAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAHAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAARQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHZvcnRleC1sQGVza2lt by5jb20AU01UUAB2b3J0ZXgtbEBlc2tpbW8uY29tAAAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAD MAEAAAAUAAAAdm9ydGV4LWxAZXNraW1vLmNvbQADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAWAAAA J3ZvcnRleC1sQGVza2ltby5jb20nAAAAAgELMAEAAAAZAAAAU01UUDpWT1JURVgtTEBFU0tJTU8u Q09NAAAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAACMDMBBIABACkAAABSRTogTmV3 IENPRkUgVmVudWUgLS0gb2ZmIEdvdid0IHByb3BlcnR5ANwMAQWAAwAOAAAAzwcEAAIADwAuAAsA BQApAQEggAMADgAAAM8HBAACAA8ALAAEAAUAIAEBCYABACEAAAA3REFERjE1OEY5RThEMjExQTg4 MDAwODBBRDE4NEM2MwAvBwEDkAYAoAQAABQAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4A AAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5ACBEk8kGfb4BHgBwAAEAAAApAAAAUkU6IE5ldyBDT0ZFIFZlbnVlIC0t IG9mZiBHb3YndCBwcm9wZXJ0eQAAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABvn0GyZNY8a1+6PkR0qiAAICtGExj AAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAFgAAAHBldGVyZ0BvYzEuaXRpbS1jai5ybwAA AAMABhC2d3thAwAHEPkBAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABERUFSR0VORSxJSEFWRU5PVFNFRU5IRVJOQU1F SU5USEVMQVNUUFJPR1JBTUhPUEVTSEVDT01FU0FORFRFTExTVVNJTlRFUkVTVElOR1RISU5HU0JF U1RXSVNIRVMsUEVURVItAAAAAAIBCRABAAAA/gIAAPoCAABhBQAATFpGdVNEsev/AAoBDwIVAqQD 5AXrAoMAUBMDVAIAY2gKwHNldO4yBgAGwwKDMgPGBxMCg7ozEw19CoAIzwnZOxX/eDI1NQKACoEN sQtgbnJnAdA1Nwr7EvIMAWNRAEAgRGUKwUcJ8GUSLAqFSSARwHZlIPxubwVAEfAJ8BwABJAcUEph B4AgC4AgdBzwIHULYHMFQHADYAnAHUAh0QqFSG9wHEBzHcEFoIsHggBwZB2gZWxsBCB+dQQgC4Ag YBYAHhALgGdTHaEhcXMuCoViIUEg6wPxHPBzG3ZQEgAEkAqFQQqLbGkxODAC0WnwLTE0NA3wDNAl 8wtZXDE2CqADYCBgYwVALV8oFwqHJssMMCeWRgNhOgcpHieWDIIgRS5GLv8F0AdAFZAcMCi/Kc0G YAIwayr/LAswEiBBHkADETFmOTJQMjAwOiYQE3BNMy2fKc1Uby/fLAtWTzBSVEVYMx8urnVizmon 0TU/LAtSRTngB8LwQ09GRTcACfAKUCgB3CBvDdAbIC1gJx4jH1DNACB5JB8lIzM2JpcUIssMASeW PhrvPlceABxTkmEfsW5mISFuYxxA7GJ5I7ADYGYtAEFQBuAlHoBoGtAuTDwwaHVhIYEsIEJ1DdAH QG88IFUtABYALQAbUGdh+yFgLXc+RjEAkB4QAHBDkf89IB+wCsAG4AOgJcAikBHgHyAQIJBF8ATw HPBkdWzzCYAc4mU/HyAdAQqwPfE/HXAEIEngHEACED6XPnD/OYAlUEhwIWACIEcHHYEAcL9D0Ehw EfBFcBvwIbJrLQD2TkXwG1B3BCADUh4yPUDxRRMuLmkcgweAIEFF8PsikCDqP0H2I88jpRt2I1Zf RANFFEtBSahRQXMfUGH+ayAQBUAdsjxDQxhFcEKB30XABcBCgRvwCoVrHGAH4N888UUwSgAEER+C d0KBBPAfCsBKET0iQ8IKwGstWvsHcAeAcgOCEgBJQSIWCoX/GzI+TD6/JpcaNSeWCoUVIQIAYwAA AAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAAAABAAAcwQCHifQZ9vgFAAAgwQCHifQZ9vgEeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTog AAAAAAMADTT9NwAAS0I= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE7D1F.EFC250A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 2 05:03:29 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA23622; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 05:02:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 05:02:35 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <6c9e8c8f.243619b0 aol.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:01:36 EST Subject: Re: Suborbital Electron Theory and CF To: vortex-L eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Reply-To: Tstolper aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"rcQ3K1.0.ym5.g_B1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26722 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In his interesting post Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:49:25 -0500, Andrew Meulenberg doubted that Haus' criterion could be used for a new quantum theory, unless Randell Mills had extended Haus' work. My reading of Mills is that he has. The conventional picture of the bound electron is something like a point particle orbiting the nucleus but hidden in a probability cloud, so to speak. Mills' model of the bound electron is radically different. He used Haus' criterion to derive the electron as a spherical shell of charge centered on the nucleus. The spherical shell has zero thickness, I think. Mills calls this spherical shell the electron orbitsphere. He's taken a lot of flak about it. Andrew, what works by Mills have you read? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 2 05:04:04 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA23691; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 05:03:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 05:03:12 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <67130db9.243619ab aol.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:01:31 EST Subject: Re: State Dept. conference cancelled To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Reply-To: Tstolper aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"hBDOD3.0.5o5.G0C1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26723 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, In your post Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 17:36:09 -0500, you wrote that Thomas Valone of the Patent Office had more information about the cancellation of the conference. Does Valone know the history of the Patent Office's refusal to grand cold fusion patents? Has he been a participant in that long and continuing argument? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 2 05:08:41 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA23777; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 05:03:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 05:03:35 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:01:38 EST Subject: Re: Water Memory To: vortex-L eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Reply-To: Tstolper aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"YdrA5.0.Np5.d0C1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26724 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gene, Thanks for posting the article from THE INDEPENDENT of March 19, 1999. That's the first good exposition of Benveniste's ideas I've seen. I may have to start following this topic (hadn't before). EM signalling by molecules doesn't seem to violate any of the bedrock laws of physics, e.g., special relativity, Maxwell's equations. EM signalling also sounds more plausible to me than water memory. What's THE INDEPENDENT's website? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 2 05:59:22 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA01764; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 05:53:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 05:53:21 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990402085234.0079b100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 08:52:34 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: State Dept. conference cancelled Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8FnJe1.0.UR.GlC1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26725 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom Stolper asks: "Does Valone know the history of the Patent Office's refusal to grand cold fusion patents? Has he been a participant in that long and continuing argument?" I suppose he does, but I wouldn't know. You'll have to ask him. - JR From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 2 07:30:18 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA23762; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 07:25:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 07:25:04 -0800 Message-ID: <3704E1A8.7E9 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 10:26:32 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2 w/K glow discharge References: <4621c1dc.2435bb70 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9Rl0-.0.Cp5.G5E1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26726 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram aol.com wrote: > (snip) > I don't think I want to try that. I will just go with the watt-hour > meter > and figure the transformer as 92% efficient (Pri - 120v 250 VA, > Sec 10kV 23 mA) and figure > for example a 100 watt input to transformer gives me an 80 watt arc. > Does that sound right? Well, Vince, all I can say is that when my neon transformer was driving a 636 volt, 18.6 mA, fixed resistor load (34.25K) - it looked like the efficiency was less than 45 percent. That's assumming the waveforms thru my fixed resistor were sinusoidal. That 45 percent was only using the load watts of 11.8 and the copper loss of 14.19 watts. Had I been able to measture the core losses, (like you can with the wattmeter), the efficiency would have been less than 45 percent. These types of transformers WERE NOT designed for efficiency! They were designed to run safely at short-circuit conditions. Look, at least see if you can load the high-voltage with a 20 K power resistor. I used a "junk" meter on my test to be sure I was in a safe range for my DMM. Then I used my good DMM to get my 636 volt load drop. I knew the resistor value so I also knew the current. Assumming a sinusoidal wave form, I calculated the load power. If you're really below 50 percent efficiency with the transformer, you could miss an OU result very easily! Let's see, if your xfmr limits at 23 mA, it should put around (0.023)^2 * 20,000 ohms = 10.58 watts into a 20K resistor at a drop of 0.023 * 20,000 = 460 volts. You could make up the 10 watts needed with a series string of "normal" resistors. AT NO TIME WOULD THE SECONDARY BE OPEN ON THIS TEST! Good luck! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 2 07:30:30 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA25670; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 07:29:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 07:29:45 -0800 Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C0215B180 XCH-CPC-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: APS cold fusion session Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 07:28:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2407.0) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"6wlxe.0._G6.e9E1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26727 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gene I received the 10th anniversery issue last night (very nice job), and read about the MIT controversy adjudged by Phillip Morrison. Is the raw set of numbers taken in the original experiment available somewhere, so people can draw their own conclusions? Hank > ---------- > From: E.F. Mallove[SMTP:editor infinite-energy.com] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Thursday, April 01, 1999 2:37 PM > To: VORTEX > Subject: Re: APS cold fusion session > > >Thanks Jed for the very encouraging report from the APS conference, and > to > >Gene Mallove for the Anniversary Issue of IE. These things are so > positive > >and motivating. > > Thank you very much, Horrace. > > Gene > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 2 13:08:25 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA17430; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 13:06:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 13:06:25 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 11:04:44 -1000 Subject: [Off] Movie recommendation: The Matrix From: "Rick Monteverde" To: "Vortex-L" Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <199904021723.SM00259 [206.127.240.158]> Resent-Message-ID: <"nElJZ2.0.AG4.F5J1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26728 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vo: Went to see "The Matrix" last night with my girlfriend. She's not usually too big on high-tech sci-fi thrillers, but she liked this one as much as I did. Ok, maybe Keanu Reeves had something to do with that - he's even leaner and meaner here than in "Speed". True cyberpunk sci-fi fans will not find much really original material here; it's actually a variation on a fairly old story premise. But that doesn't hurt a movie as well done as this one. The artwork and sets, story development and pacing, and of course the visuals are all top drawer. Even the acting doesn't hurt too much. It's kind of like "Alice In Wonderland" (numerous literal references, all really fun) meets the Borg in "Blade Runner". It doesn't let you down for a moment, and in the end it might even leave you with just the tiniest sliver of doubt about the true nature of YOUR reality. Highly recommended! (..and nobody pays me to write crap like this like you-know-who.) - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 2 15:07:04 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA00991; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 15:02:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 15:02:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990402170227.00b03078 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 17:02:27 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: H2K: additional WHmeter data Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"GRw-9.0.PF.6oK1t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26729 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In the spirit of Tom Stolper's recent suggestion, I hereby initiate a new subject format for posts on Vince's experiment. Three letters indentify the fact that it's about Vince's experiment...the rest of the subject gives you some idea what the message is about. This AM I ran some tests with my Clarke-Hess power analyzer, my watthour meter, a neon sign xfmr, and some light bulbs. Here's the data: Load Description WHmeter Clarke-Hess neon xfmr: 3/4" spark 90 92 neon xfmr: 1/2" spark 63 65 neon xfmr: 1/8" spark 41 42 200 watt bulb 191 196 100 watt bulb 92 97 60 watt bulb 55 59 40 watt bulb 34 38 7.5 watt bulb 3.4 7.4 My watthour meter reads low on everything....compared to the Clarke-Hess. But at least it appears to read the highly inductive xfmr loads about right. Observed power factor ranged from 0.14 down to 0.09 as the spark gap length diminshed. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 2 16:28:43 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA02328; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:25:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:25:37 -0800 From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: additional WHmeter data Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 00:25:05 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <37075fbc.260324696 mail-hub> References: <3.0.1.32.19990402170227.00b03078 mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990402170227.00b03078 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA02309 Resent-Message-ID: <"Ol2Ug1.0.Ia.10M1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26730 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 02 Apr 1999 17:02:27 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >In the spirit of Tom Stolper's recent suggestion, I hereby initiate a new >subject format for posts on Vince's experiment. Three letters indentify >the fact that it's about Vince's experiment...the rest of the subject gives >you some idea what the message is about. Why not just move the thread to vorcor-l where it belongs? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 2 22:04:06 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA31661; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 22:02:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 22:02:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3705AE85.A29F4D5E earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 23:00:37 -0700 From: "Richard T. Murray" Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Blue: check post-run Ni isotopes 4.2.99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"j9Ieu2.0.dk7.fxQ1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26731 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Richard, So Jed and the other believers came away from APS Atlanta feeling good about themselves. Should we expect otherwise? I'd say that Jed's comments could very well be applied to any of a dozen earlier meetings, all attended by this same group, with similar presentations by the same people. However, none of the key issues are any better resolved. No questions have been answered, and the same flawed concepts still guide the discussions. To pick on one example relating to supposed helium production. Jed, in discussing the technique employed for sampling gas evolved during electrolysis, suggests that the flow of gas through the sampling bottle is sufficient to preclude any backstreaming of helium from the atmosphere into the sample volume. That is a very dangerous assumption that rests, I suspect, on an incomplete understanding of the kinetics of gas molecules. Jed's noting that the very name to be applied to these phenomena(?) remains problematic is a sure sign that something is rather sick about all of this. After 10 years the advocates still can't really afford to be pinned down to a specific hypothesis regarding the reaction process. I wonder where the notion that the 3He is a product of tritium decay comes from? Does this occur instantaneously rather than at the rather slow rate that is actually observed? While I'm at it I will admit to making the rounds of the assorted CF web sites. Some of them don't ever change, but I did note that the Chubb "theory" is now placing more emphasis on surface states. However, it is still pretty vague on key points such as the difference between the wave function for pairs of non-interacting deuterons as opposed to 4He nuclei. Not much new on the "massive transmutation" front, it seems, except for Miley attaching some fancy name to his operations. Recently while meditating on the differences between nuclear and chemical processes and how they are to be differentiated, I came up with the following: Recognizing that each atom can be characterized by an atomic number Z and a neutron number N with, generally speaking, there being an assortment of values for N for each value of Z. One feature we have come to expect is that chemical processes tend to be indifferent to the value of N. There are, of course, some well- understood exceptions regarding this indifference to neutron number, but let us overlook them for now. The essence of the "massive transmutation" claims is that the process is not, it seems, suitably indifferent to neutron number and is, therefore, disqualified from being a strictly chemical process. As a nuclear physicist I, of course, have experience with processes that exhibit very strong and very specific dependences on neutron number. The obvious problem with the "massive transmutation" claims is that they don't fit either a picture of complete independence of N or a picture of strong and recognizable dependences on that key parameter. Let's examine the side of the "massive transmutation" process that has generally been neglected heretofore with regard to evidence for or against a dependence on neutron number. If the starting material is natural nickel there are four stable isotopes, i.e. four different values of N in the initial state. Should the process which depletes the nickel exhibit a strong N dependence, we would expect that the rate at which the various isotopes react would differ, perhaps by orders of magnitude, since those sorts of differences are observed in other nuclear processes. Thus I suggest one obvious test for a claim of "massive transmutation" is whether the residual nickel shows any unusual abundance ratios. If it's still nickel with an ordinary isotopic makeup, then the process that accounts for the 40% depletion can hardly be said to have a strong dependence on N. It would appear to be a chemical process. The data must already be there. What does it say? Dick Blue From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 3 02:42:26 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA30937; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 02:41:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 02:41:05 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990403104736.016015d0 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 05:47:36 -0500 To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Mr. Zimmerman reeeeeeeds Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id CAA30715 Resent-Message-ID: <"qKzsn3.0.7Z7.01V1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26732 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I talked to Mr. Zimmerman at the U.S. Arms Control & Disarmament Agency. I asked him why he had the Commerce Department Free Energy conference cancelled. He said that such matters have nothing to do with the Commerce department and that Free Energy is a hoax. I asked him how he can be so sure Free Energy is a hoax. Mr. Zimmerman replied that he REEEEEEDS. I later learned that Mr. Zimmerman works at the MA (Multilateral Affairs) division of the ACDA and that he has security clearance for classified information. If the U.S. government has information that Free Energy is real, I submit that Mr. Zimmerman violated his security clearance regulations. I further submit that willfull dissemination of disinformation is a disclosure of classified information, the integrity of which, has been compromised. The government may be justified in neither confirming or denying something. Lying to We The People should not be tolerated in my opinion. I will look into this situation further. The only thing discouraging me is the fact that Mr. Zimmerman appears to be just a stupid kid. It looks like the government is full of stupid kids making important decisions. Regards; Dennis ________________________________________________________________ Starfire http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/2301/starfire.html Unified Field Art http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/UFA1.JPG Tall Ships http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html Concentric Tori http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/GoldCTori_A.JPG Circle Of Fire - Dreamland - VR Avatars! Great Fun! http://www.artbellchatclub.com REPORT of the COMMISSION ON PROTECTING AND REDUCING GOVERNMENT SECRECY 1997 SENATE DOCUMENT 105-2 http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/commissions/secrecy/index.html ________________________________________ When I am working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I only think of how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong. -R. Buckminster Fuller- ________________________________________ 'G' defines 'objective art': "In real art there is nothing accidental. It is mathematics. Everything in it can be calculated, everything can be known beforehand. The artist knows and understands what he wants to convey and his work cannot produce one impression on one man and another impression on another, presuming of course, people on one level. It will always, and with mathematical certainty, produce one and the same impression. "At the same time the same work of art will produce different impressions on people of different levels. And people of lower levels will never receive from it what people of higher levels receive. This is real, objective art. - p26-p27 from "In Search Of The Miraculous" by P.D. Ouspensky - ______________________________________________________________________________ "Music, pure, natural, and harmonical, in the true and evident sense of the term, is the division of any key-note, or starting-point, into it's integral and ultimate parts, and the descending divisions will always answer to the ascending, having reference to the general whole. The essence and mystery in the development of harmonies consists in the fact that every key-note, or unit, is a nucleus including the past, the present, and the future, having in itself an inherent power, with a tendency to expand and contract. In the natural system, as each series rises, its contents expand and fall back to to the original limit from any point ascending or descending; we cannot perceive finality in any ultimate; every tone is related to higher and lower tones; and must be part of an organized whole." - p16 "Harmonies Of Tones And Colours Developed By Evolution" by F.J. Hughes - ______________________________________________________________________________ The image of the CIA foisted on the public is of a group organized to protect our country's interests. Instead, it is an organization of dangerous men trained in the black arts and deception to safeguard the interests of the powerful elite who have kept this planet in bondage for ages. Every individual who has shown unusual ability, including the psychic, has come under their surveilance. It is determined at headquarters in Washington, DC, whether or not it is in the best interests of the power structure for the person to be terminated. If so, a hit man is sent to arrange it. In this manner, many people over the years have met with untimely deaths. Many have wondered why the author has not met with a similar fate, since he has been stomping on the toes of the structure much harder than anyone else for many years. When the time is propitious for a great new idea to be introduced into the world, the power to enforce its introduction will accompany the one who is to introduce it. This power will far transcend that of any man-made organization that would oppose it. It is needless to state that many hit men have been expended in an effort to terminate the author. A former associate of the author with unusual abilities and a great mission to fulfill has had a similar run-in with the CIA. Every hit man sent to eliminate him has himself been terminated by a strange "accident". It is interesting to note that the CIA is now only a shadow of what it once was and all of its best hit men are long gone. Prior to Reagan's inauguration small newspaper articles kept hinting that the CIA was in big trouble. One of them mentioned that nearly 900 agents had been fired(?). The most recent of these articles stated that the morale and performance of the CIA had reached an all time low and "only drastic surgery would save the patient". It is also significant that such rumors and articles followed the run-ins the author and an associate had with the CIA men. A typical CIA agent is an individual with few scruples and he is also likely to be highly unstable emotionally. The above mentioned former associate of the author had an experience that confirmed this. An apartment just above one in which he was once living was occupied by a CIA agent sent there to monitor him. As has always been the case, the living quarters of everyone under their scrutiny is thoroughly bugged. For the more "important" cases there is a direct pipeline from this bugging to CIA headquarters. Unknown to the CIA at the time was that this associate was adept in astral projection. One evening the agent found out about this ability when he became aware of the fact that he was being monitored by the one he was supposed to be monitoring. His reaction was complete panic. He started to call headquarters but dropped the phone, rushed to the bathroom and began sobbing. The proceedings were automatically transmitted to headquarters. This individual had astrally visited headquarters, wherein it was decided by CIA officialdom that it was in the best interests that he be liquidated. Some prominent individuals in the public eye were there at the time. quote from "The Awesome Life Force" by Joseph H. Cater (p342-p343) _______________________________________________________________________________ Executive Order 12958 - http://www.spb.gov/html/12958.html Sec. 4.2. General Restrictions on Access. (b) Classified information shall remain under the control of the originating agency or its successor in function. An agency shall not disclose information originally classified by another agency without its authorization. An official or employee leaving agency service may not remove classified information from the agency's control. (e) Consistent with law, directives, and regulation, an agency head or senior agency official shall establish uniform procedures to ensure that automated information systems, including networks and telecommunications systems, that collect, create, communicate, compute, disseminate, process, or store classified information have controls that: (2) ensure the integrity of the information. ______________________________________________________________________________ Executive Order 12958 - http://www.spb.gov/html/12958.html Sec. 5.7. Sanctions. (a) If the Director of the Information Security Oversight Office finds that a violation of this order or its implementing directives may have occurred, the Director shall make a report to the head of the agency or to the senior agency official so that corrective steps, if appropriate, may be taken. (b) Officers and employees of the United States Government, and its contractors, licensees, certificate holders, and grantees shall be subject to appropriate sanctions if they knowingly, willfully, or negligently: (1) disclose to unauthorized persons information properly classified under this order or predecessor orders; (2) classify or continue the classification of information in violation of this order or any implementing directive; (3) create or continue a special access program contrary to the requirements of this order; ______________________________________________________________________________ Executive Order 12958 - http://www.spb.gov/html/12958.html Sec. 3.2. Authority for Declassification. (a) Information shall be declassified as soon as it no longer meets the standards for classification under this order. (b) It is presumed that information that continues to meet the classification requirements under this order requires continued protection. In some exceptional cases, however, the need to protect such information may be outweighed by the public interest in disclosure of the information, and in these cases the information should be declassified. When such questions arise, they shall be referred to the agency head or the senior agency official. That official will determine, as an exercise of discretion, whether the public interest in disclosure outweighs the damage to national security that might reasonably be expected from disclosure. _______________________________________________________________________________ >From "What's New?" at http://www.physicsweb.org Antarctic glaciers feel the heat [Friday July 24] The Pine Island Glacier in West Antarctica is shrinking at a startling rate according to satellite observations. And the "hinge-point" of the glacier is retreating at 1.2 km per year according to Eric Rignot of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California. Geophysicists believe that the glacier is theoretically unstable and that the retreat could become irreversible. Many believe that such an event would be strong evidence for climatic change. Rignot cautions that the retreat he has observed might be a short-lived phenomenon, but adds it could still have implications for the stability of ice-sheets along the entire Antarctic coastline (Science 281 549). Rignot used radar data taken between 1992 and 1996 by two European satellites, ERS-1 and ERS-2, to generate interference patterns that are sensitive to small vertical movements. These patterns provide information on the velocity of the ice - how fast it is creeping towards the bay - and the hinge point - the position on the glacier at which ice moves from resting on the bay bed to ice floating on the water. Recent measurements have suggested that the Pine Island glacier is melting at a much faster rate than other large ice shelves in the Antarctic. Researchers believed this was being caused by an influx of warm water from the Southern Pacific Ocean. Rignot's latest work concludes that 76 ± 2 km3 of ice is being discharged into the bay each year, while only 71 ± 7 km3 is replenished from the Antarctic interior - which indicates that the glacier is shrinking at a startling rate. If this data does herald the start of collapse for the Antarctic ice sheet, water levels could rise by more than 5 m within a couple of centuries. Global warming confirmed from space [Friday August 14] Differences in the temperature of the earth's atmosphere as measured by satellites and ground-based instruments have puzzled scientists for years, and caused some politicians to doubt the reality of global warming. Now, however, calculations by Frank Wentz and Matthias Schabel of Remote Sensing Systems in California have shown that small decays in the orbit of satellites may have caused the discrepancy (Nature 394 661). Previously satellite measurements have suggested that the atmosphere was cooling at 0.05 Kelvin per decade, while ground-based instruments showed an increase of 0.13 Kelvin per decade. However, as polar satellites orbit the Earth, they suffer atmospheric drag. The thickness and height of the Earth's atmosphere is dependent on the sun's solar activity. When solar activity is at a maximum, ultraviolet rays from the sun heat the upper atmosphere. This causes the atmosphere to expand outwards, which increases the drag experienced by satellites. Wentz and Schabel calculated that this caused the orbits of polar satellites operated by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) in the US to decay by 1.2 km per year over a 17 year period. They also discovered that the Microwave Sounding Unit (MSU) used to measure the troposphere temperature profile is very sensitive to height fluctuations. By developing a correction factor for the instrument, they were able to re-evaluate the satellite data. They found that the instrument now measured a temperature rise of 0.07 Kelvin per decade instead of the previously reported fall. This new figure is similar to results predicted by computer climate models and explains why the satellites had seen increased cooling in the troposphere during periods of increased solar activity in 1979-83 and 1989-92. Humans are the cause of climate change [Thursday November 26] The controversy over the relative contributions of greenhouse gas emissions and solar activity to global warming appears to have been resolved. Tom Wigley, Richard Smith and Benjamin Santer in the US contrasted global meteorological temperature data gathered over the past 115 years with results from two leading computer models. They found that the best fit to the data occurred when this century's 0.6 C global temperature rise is assumed to have been caused mainly by mankind's output of greenhouse gases (Science 282 1676). The team looked in particular for 'lag time' effects in the data. For example, the eruption of Mt Pinatubo in the Philippines in 1991 lowered the global temperature by 0.3 C in the following year as fine aerosols of volcanic ash and sulphuric acid caused a cooling effect. However, the team believes that volcanic eruptions have a short lived effect on the long-term temperature. They therefore looked at two possible variables that could adjust climate - greenhouse gases and changes in the sun's output. Wigley and colleagues ran the two independent computer models four times, each time with a different set of parameters. In the first data set, they created a world in which greenhouse gases remained constant over 100 years and changes in solar output do not affect the climate. In the second set they assumed that the Earth's climate can be affected by solar output - called solar forcing - but greenhouse gases remain constant. The third set had no solar output, but greenhouse gases rise over time. Finally the fourth set had a mixture of both solar forcing and rising levels of greenhouse gases. They first found that there was wide discrepancies between the output of both computer models and the experimental data in the first data set. This indicated that some mechanism was increasing the global temperature this century. Then they found that if solar heating was solely responsible for climate change, the Earth's climate would have to be six times more sensitive to solar heating than realistic estimates suggest. Wigley, Smith and Santer concluded that unlike a paper published in Physical Review Letters this week (see CERN plans global-warming experiment), the only model that matched both simulation and experimental data sets was the one containing a strong greenhouse gas effect and a small amount of solar heating. According to Wigley: "These results provide another important piece in the jigsaw puzzle of climate change, strengthening yet further our confidence that there has been a discernible human influence on climate. Furthermore, they provide additional evidence that the models used to make projections of future climate change are realistic." ________________________________________________________________________________ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 3 05:39:06 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA17810; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 05:38:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 05:38:13 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 08:37:26 EST Subject: IE No. 24 To: vortex-L eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Reply-To: Tstolper aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Ki2vO2.0.CM4.5dX1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26733 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gene, Congratulations on INFINITE ENERGY No. 24. Great cover. This issue is a collector's item. It'll take me a while to read it, though. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 3 06:05:36 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA23748; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 06:02:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 06:02:56 -0800 Message-Id: <199904031358.IAA11214 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Mr. Zimmerman reeeeeeeds Date: Sat, 3 Apr 99 09:02:45 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"YOjau3.0.wo5.G-X1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26734 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dennis Lee wrote: >The only thing discouraging me is the fact that >Mr. Zimmerman appears to be just a stupid kid. It looks like the government >is full of stupid kids making important decisions. Yes, a good summary of the stituation. I'd broaden that to read -- "full of stupid, willfully ignorant, and evil brats making important decisions." Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 3 08:08:06 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15280; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 08:07:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 08:07:13 -0800 Message-ID: <37063D70.66A9 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 10:10:37 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Reply-To: Storms2 ix.netcom.com Organization: Energy K. Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0-C-NC320 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Blue: check post-run Ni isotopes 4.2.99 References: <3705AE85.A29F4D5E earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"z7vOV2.0.gk3.moZ1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26735 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dick Blue wrote: Normally I try not to get into a pissing contest, but Dick keeps saying things that simply are not true while acting like the voice of reasonable skepticism. If he wishes to make a contribution, I suggest he become informed. > > So Jed and the other believers came away from APS Atlanta feeling > good about themselves. Should we expect otherwise? I'd say that > Jed's comments could very well be applied to any of a dozen > earlier meetings, all attended by this same group, with similar > presentations by the same people. However, none of the key issues > is better resolved. No questions have been answered, and the > same flawed concepts still guide the discussions. Key issues are being resolved and questions are being answered. Dick just doesn't like the answers. Dick apparently objects to the concept that nuclear reactions occur without producing expected radiation or products. Nevermind that something unusual might be occurring. > > To pick on one example relating to supposed helium production. Jed, > in discussing the technique employed for sampling gas evolved during > electrolysis, suggests that the flow of gas through the sampling > bottle is sufficient to preclude any backstreaming of helium from > the atmosphere into the sample volume. That is a very dangerous > assumption that rests, I suspect, on an incomplete understanding > of the kinetics of gas molecules. Everyone understand that gas can diffuse through walls of containers as Dick has pointed out. However, it is the magnitude of this effect which is at issue. Not only is evidence for significant msagnitude not found, Dick can not provide a calculated value which can explain the results. Indeed, the Case experiment has provided 4He concentrations well above ambient values, a fact which Dick would know if he had attended the APS meeting rather than pontificating from a distance. > > Jed's noting that the very name to be applied to these phenomena(?) > remains problematic is a sure sign that something is rather sick about > all of this. After 10 years the advocates still can't really afford > to be pinned down to a specific hypothesis regarding the reaction > process. I wonder where the notion that the 3He is a product of > tritium decay comes from? Does this occur instantaneously rather > than at the rather slow rate that is actually observed? I wonder how Dick managed to cope with research problems when he was actually working in physics. It is the nature of research to be uncertain and confused. 3He can result from tritium decay or from other reactions. The source is still not known for certain. In any case, the detection sensitivity for 3He is so high that normal decay of tritium is sufficient to produce detectable amounts, as Dick can easily calculate. > > While I'm at it I will admit to making the rounds of the assorted > CF web sites. Some of them don't ever change, but I did note that > the Chubb "theory" is now placing more emphasis on surface states. > However, it is still pretty vague on key points such as the difference > between the wave function for pairs of non-interacting deuterons as > opposed > to 4He nuclei. The Chubb theory is growing as new knowledge develops. If only the skeptics would do the same. > > Not much new on the "massive transmutation" front, it seems, expect > for Miley attaching some fancy name to his operations. Recently > while meditating on the differences between nuclear and chemical > processes and how they are to be differentiated I came up with the > following: > > Recognizing that each atom can be characterized by an atomic number > Z and a neutron number N with, generally speaking, there being > an assortment of values for N for each value of Z. One feature > we have come to expect is that chemical processes tend to be > indifferent to the value of N. There are, of course, some well- > understood exceptions regarding this indifference to neutron number, > but let us overlook them for now. > > The essence of the "massive transmutation" claims is that the process > is not, it seems, suitably indifferent to neutron number and is, > therefore, disqualified from being a strictly chemical process. > As a nuclear physicist I, of course, have experience with processes > that exhibit very strong and very specific dependences on neutron > number. The obvious problem with the "massive transmutation" claims > is that they don't fit either a picture of complete independence > of N or a picture of strong and recognizable dependences on that > key parameter. Yes, this is true. At this point, one might expect some of the claimed transmutation products to be contamination, some to have suffered isotope shifts caused by hydrogen enhanced diffusion, but some are clearly real. Until this stew is properly dissected, it is hard to arrive at a rational conclusion. The issue is whether such a complex and expensive analysis is justified. I say yes, Dick says no. > > Let's examine the side of the "massive transmutation" process that > has generally been neglected heretofore with regard to evidence > for or against a dependence on neutron number. If the starting > material is natural nickel there are four stable isotopes, i.e. > four different values of N in the initial state. Should the > process which depletes the nickel exhibit a strong N dependence > we would expect that the rate at which the various isotopes > react would differ, perhaps by orders of magnitude since those > sorts of differences are observed in other nuclear processes. > Thus I suggest one obvious test for a claim of "massive transmutation" > is whether the residual nickel shows any unusual abundance ratios. > If it's still nickel with an ordinary isotopic makeup then the process > that accounts for the 40% depletion can hardly be said to have a > strong dependence on N. It would appear to be a chemical process. > The data must already be there. What does it say? A good idea but the results may not allow such a definite conclusion as proposed by Dick. We are working in an unknown realm of nuclear interaction. For example, the nickel may play no direct role but only act as a host for impurities which are transmuted. One needs to keep an open mind if new concepts are to be recognized. Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 3 12:16:08 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA03634; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:15:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:15:10 -0800 Message-ID: <37067628.393D08AD erols.com> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 15:12:25 -0500 From: Andrew Meulenberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: "Meulenberg, Andrew" Subject: Re: Suborbital Electron Theory and CF References: <199904031042.CAA01354 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vsfsK.0.iu.DRd1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26736 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Tom: Thx for your note, and the reminder about Mills' electron model! > Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:01:36 EST > From: Tstolper aol.com > > In his interesting post Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:49:25 -0500, Andrew > Meulenberg doubted that Haus' criterion could be used for a new quantum > theory, unless Randell Mills had extended Haus' work. > > My reading of Mills is that he has. The conventional picture of the bound > electron is something like a point particle orbiting the nucleus but hidden > in a probability cloud, so to speak. Mills' model of the bound electron is > radically different. He used Haus' criterion to derive the electron as a > spherical shell of charge centered on the nucleus. The spherical shell has > zero thickness, I think. Mills calls this spherical shell the electron > orbitsphere. He's taken a lot of flak about it. ___________________ I had my blinders on. I had also rejected Mills' electron model (which, I confirmed in his Introduction - General Considerations, constrains the non-relativistic electron to a sherical shell - delta function in r). Because I am mathematically impaired, I did not challenge the basis for this claim. However, there is an internal inconsistency in his argument. How does an outer orbital electron radiate - to fall into a vacant inner orbital -, but not radiate when all of the inner orbitals are full? The answer, I believe - and am trying to prove -, is in how all of the bound electrons radiate. I have never seen this addressed in classical or quantum physics. All bound electrons radiate (according to EM theory). Only those that are able to fall to lower orbitals can "emit" a photon. If the inner orbitals are filled, the outer electrons "absorb" as much energy (from the radiated near-fields of the inner electrons) as they radiate. Therefore, they continue to radiate at the same frequency and the superposition of radiated energy cancels out all far-fields from the electron (those beyond some finite distance from the atom). With this cryptic background, I propose (and concur with Mills) that sub-orbital levels can be reached, if appropriate energy transfer (other than thru electromagnetic radiation) can be achieved. Mills was bright enough to recognize that, relative to suborbital levels, all orbits are excited states and that (radiation-) induced transitions could de-excite these states (perhaps as is done in lasers). His use of potassium is aimed at this operation. I see cold fusion as a possible example of this type de-excitation. Results of such de-excitation can be transmutation and pseudo-transmutation. Remember that 10's to 100's of MeV per electron are available if the lowest levels can be reached. Neutrinos are a possible mode of the required energy transfer. The possibility of electron capture (associated with neutrino/antineutrino pair production) provides the basis for transmutation. If deep suborbitals are accessed, then n electrons in such orbits would create (in pseudo-transmutation) an atom with a Z-n effective nuclear charge and the chemistry would reflect this. The "normal" orbital energies would be recognizable as being from the element Z-n, rather than Z. The only anomaly might be in the s orbital energies, which would have a larger than normal "thermal" spread. Such pseudo-elements could be the basis for neutron stars. If shallow suborbitals are accessed, then an electron in such an orbit would create an atom with a Z effective nuclear charge and altered chemistry. The "normal" orbital energies might still be recognizable as being from the element Z. The only anomaly might be in the orbital energies, which would have a larger than normal "thermal" spread, and a shift toward the Z-1 levels for the outer orbitals. However, a valence electron would not be available. Thus gold would change from a good conductor to a poor (possibly a non-) conductor. Is this the basis for the "white" gold claims? All of these hypotheses can be checked out, given enough time and the proper material. However, no one seems to have a process that will provide adequate material (quantity and purity :-). > Andrew, what works by Mills have you read? I have read most of what is on the Blacklight Power site, but not his books (yet). Some of the areas were just quickly scanned and I do not remember a lot of the experimental results. Thx again for forcing me to clarify my thinking, Drew M. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 3 18:02:28 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA14700; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 17:53:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 17:53:26 -0800 Message-ID: <000101be7e3d$783cade0$a149ccd1 default> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Randell Mills' New Book Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 20:49:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"8pfjw3.0.Yb3.LOi1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26737 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo: I just got Mills' new book, all 1000+ pages of it. It is even more ambitious in its scope than the previous one, for he digs into the double-slit experiments, the Aspect experiments, and the nature of consciousness. All of these, embraced by his formulation of classical quantum mechanics. And, of course, a large section on the experimental results of his recent work. I'm not competent to comment on most of this, so I will remain silent, except to note the very broad scope of the work and it detailed mathematical treatment. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 3 18:50:45 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA30258; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 18:49:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 18:49:59 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <8b4f476.24382c80 aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 21:46:24 EST Subject: Re: H2K: additional WHmeter data To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"gGrsa.0.eO7.NDj1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26738 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/02/1999 15:04:41 Pacific Standard Time, little eden.com writes: > In the spirit of Tom Stolper's recent suggestion, I hereby initiate a new > subject format for posts on Vince's experiment. Three letters indentify > the fact that it's about Vince's experiment...the rest of the subject gives > you some idea what the message is about. Now that I can handle, Scott/Tom. It will permit better indexing of posts. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 3 19:00:08 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA32623; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 18:58:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 18:58:44 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <572570c3.24382ef6 aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 21:56:54 EST Subject: Re: H2K: additional WHmeter data To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"aBrO73.0.fz7.aLj1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26739 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/02/1999 16:28:21 Pacific Standard Time, rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au writes: > Why not just move the thread to vorcor-l where it belongs? > Regards, > Robin van Spaandonk Why Robin? From the first page of Vortex rules: The Vortex-L list was originally created for discussions of professional research into fluid vortex/cavitation devices which exhibit anomalous energy effects (ie: the inventions of Schaeffer, Huffman, Griggs, and Potapov among others.) Skeptics beware, the topics also wander to any anomalous physics such as "Cold Fusion," reports of excess energy in "free energy" devices, chemical transmutation, gravity generation and detection, and all sorts of supposedly crackpot claims. Please see the rules below. This is a public, lightly-moderated list. Interested parties are welcome to subscribe. PLEASE READ THE RULES BEFORE SUBSCRIBING. Now I agree that I am not a professional researcher but then, how many of us are? I like Vortex-l because it is a friendly and very helpful place. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 3 20:14:46 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA12906; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 20:13:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 20:13:07 -0800 From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: additional WHmeter data Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 04:12:34 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3707e58b.360143656 mail-hub> References: <572570c3.24382ef6 aol.com> In-Reply-To: <572570c3.24382ef6 aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA12885 Resent-Message-ID: <"41RBp3.0.a93.JRk1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26740 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 3 Apr 1999 21:56:54 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 04/02/1999 16:28:21 Pacific Standard Time, >rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au writes: >> Why not just move the thread to vorcor-l where it belongs? >> Regards, >> Robin van Spaandonk > >Why Robin? From the first page of Vortex rules: AFAIK vortcor-l was created later, and specifically with the intent of hosting reports pertaining to actual experiments (i.e. no theorising, or wild flights of fancy ;). Since you are doing hard experiments, and reporting on them, it would seem ideal. Also I would consider a move to vortcor-l a promotion, not a demotion as you seem to feel. I think most vortexians are also subscribed to vortcor-l, so I doubt the size of your audience would shrink, and your messages would stand out like a sore thumb (almost nothing gets posted there). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 3 21:31:23 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA23568; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 21:20:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 21:20:23 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990404062644.015f48dc popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 00:26:44 -0500 To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: Mr. Zimmerman reeeeeeeds Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA23524 Resent-Message-ID: <"fqX_3.0.4m5.MQl1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26741 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:36 AM 4/3/99 -0800, you wrote: >Free energy was a reality over 100 years ago in Keely's work. Years ago >I had a retired Army friend who knew far more than he ever told me about >"things". He was in WWII and said with certainty the only way we won >that conflict was because the Allies succeeded in cutting off Germany's >fuel supply. Fuel and therefore power-to-do is a strategic element of >all government war efforts and plans. The country that has unlimited >energy has unlimited power or so the theory goes. Therefore "our" >government is duty bound to suppress free energy - or so they think. >These types of energy development will only come about (in my opinion) >when fear is abated, generally, throughout the global population. Sounds >like a big order? Yep. But then Atlin and her SVP technology is based in >Universal Love. We are gaining slowly the requisite energetics that will >eventually harken a New Mindset or Consciousness propitious (sp?) to >development and general use of Free Energy. Those who live in fear are >terrified of Love and what it means - letting go of the fear to become >defenseless in trust and faith which is a direct result of foregiveness >(ala ACIM). If the climate triggers to a different level because of global warming as postulated by the PBS 'NOVA' program titled "Warnings From The Ice", the scenario of Hitler with unlimited energy would be trivial compared with what We The People would then be facing. Besides, Hussein is probably as bad as they come and he has an energy supply that would dwarf a Free Energy generator. I fear what mother nature is capable of. Prudence would indicate that it be better to err on the side of caution and being technologically prepared rather than face the prospect of 'letting the weather fade you away' if an ice age is triggered and one is not prepared. Ice cores from the Greenland glacial sheet indicate that climate can change to a vastly different level in as little as one or two years (from the same NOVA show). The question is - is it wise to risk the small chance of a foreign country using Free Energy to conquer us in order that We The People be prepared for the likely chance of bad weather ahead. In addition, Free Energy would reverse global warming and thereby eliminate that source of problem. Regards; Dennis ________________________________________________________________ Starfire http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/2301/starfire.html Unified Field Art http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/UFA1.JPG Tall Ships http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html Concentric Tori http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/GoldCTori_A.JPG Circle Of Fire - Dreamland - VR Avatars! Great Fun! http://www.artbellchatclub.com REPORT of the COMMISSION ON PROTECTING AND REDUCING GOVERNMENT SECRECY 1997 SENATE DOCUMENT 105-2 http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/commissions/secrecy/index.html ________________________________________ When I am working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I only think of how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong. -R. Buckminster Fuller- ________________________________________ 'G' defines 'objective art': "In real art there is nothing accidental. It is mathematics. Everything in it can be calculated, everything can be known beforehand. The artist knows and understands what he wants to convey and his work cannot produce one impression on one man and another impression on another, presuming of course, people on one level. It will always, and with mathematical certainty, produce one and the same impression. "At the same time the same work of art will produce different impressions on people of different levels. And people of lower levels will never receive from it what people of higher levels receive. This is real, objective art. - p26-p27 from "In Search Of The Miraculous" by P.D. Ouspensky - ______________________________________________________________________________ "Music, pure, natural, and harmonical, in the true and evident sense of the term, is the division of any key-note, or starting-point, into it's integral and ultimate parts, and the descending divisions will always answer to the ascending, having reference to the general whole. The essence and mystery in the development of harmonies consists in the fact that every key-note, or unit, is a nucleus including the past, the present, and the future, having in itself an inherent power, with a tendency to expand and contract. In the natural system, as each series rises, its contents expand and fall back to to the original limit from any point ascending or descending; we cannot perceive finality in any ultimate; every tone is related to higher and lower tones; and must be part of an organized whole." - p16 "Harmonies Of Tones And Colours Developed By Evolution" by F.J. Hughes - ______________________________________________________________________________ The image of the CIA foisted on the public is of a group organized to protect our country's interests. Instead, it is an organization of dangerous men trained in the black arts and deception to safeguard the interests of the powerful elite who have kept this planet in bondage for ages. Every individual who has shown unusual ability, including the psychic, has come under their surveilance. It is determined at headquarters in Washington, DC, whether or not it is in the best interests of the power structure for the person to be terminated. If so, a hit man is sent to arrange it. In this manner, many people over the years have met with untimely deaths. Many have wondered why the author has not met with a similar fate, since he has been stomping on the toes of the structure much harder than anyone else for many years. When the time is propitious for a great new idea to be introduced into the world, the power to enforce its introduction will accompany the one who is to introduce it. This power will far transcend that of any man-made organization that would oppose it. It is needless to state that many hit men have been expended in an effort to terminate the author. A former associate of the author with unusual abilities and a great mission to fulfill has had a similar run-in with the CIA. Every hit man sent to eliminate him has himself been terminated by a strange "accident". It is interesting to note that the CIA is now only a shadow of what it once was and all of its best hit men are long gone. Prior to Reagan's inauguration small newspaper articles kept hinting that the CIA was in big trouble. One of them mentioned that nearly 900 agents had been fired(?). The most recent of these articles stated that the morale and performance of the CIA had reached an all time low and "only drastic surgery would save the patient". It is also significant that such rumors and articles followed the run-ins the author and an associate had with the CIA men. A typical CIA agent is an individual with few scruples and he is also likely to be highly unstable emotionally. The above mentioned former associate of the author had an experience that confirmed this. An apartment just above one in which he was once living was occupied by a CIA agent sent there to monitor him. As has always been the case, the living quarters of everyone under their scrutiny is thoroughly bugged. For the more "important" cases there is a direct pipeline from this bugging to CIA headquarters. Unknown to the CIA at the time was that this associate was adept in astral projection. One evening the agent found out about this ability when he became aware of the fact that he was being monitored by the one he was supposed to be monitoring. His reaction was complete panic. He started to call headquarters but dropped the phone, rushed to the bathroom and began sobbing. The proceedings were automatically transmitted to headquarters. This individual had astrally visited headquarters, wherein it was decided by CIA officialdom that it was in the best interests that he be liquidated. Some prominent individuals in the public eye were there at the time. quote from "The Awesome Life Force" by Joseph H. Cater (p342-p343) _______________________________________________________________________________ Executive Order 12958 - http://www.spb.gov/html/12958.html Sec. 4.2. General Restrictions on Access. (b) Classified information shall remain under the control of the originating agency or its successor in function. An agency shall not disclose information originally classified by another agency without its authorization. An official or employee leaving agency service may not remove classified information from the agency's control. (e) Consistent with law, directives, and regulation, an agency head or senior agency official shall establish uniform procedures to ensure that automated information systems, including networks and telecommunications systems, that collect, create, communicate, compute, disseminate, process, or store classified information have controls that: (2) ensure the integrity of the information. ______________________________________________________________________________ Executive Order 12958 - http://www.spb.gov/html/12958.html Sec. 5.7. Sanctions. (a) If the Director of the Information Security Oversight Office finds that a violation of this order or its implementing directives may have occurred, the Director shall make a report to the head of the agency or to the senior agency official so that corrective steps, if appropriate, may be taken. (b) Officers and employees of the United States Government, and its contractors, licensees, certificate holders, and grantees shall be subject to appropriate sanctions if they knowingly, willfully, or negligently: (1) disclose to unauthorized persons information properly classified under this order or predecessor orders; (2) classify or continue the classification of information in violation of this order or any implementing directive; (3) create or continue a special access program contrary to the requirements of this order; ______________________________________________________________________________ Executive Order 12958 - http://www.spb.gov/html/12958.html Sec. 3.2. Authority for Declassification. (a) Information shall be declassified as soon as it no longer meets the standards for classification under this order. (b) It is presumed that information that continues to meet the classification requirements under this order requires continued protection. In some exceptional cases, however, the need to protect such information may be outweighed by the public interest in disclosure of the information, and in these cases the information should be declassified. When such questions arise, they shall be referred to the agency head or the senior agency official. That official will determine, as an exercise of discretion, whether the public interest in disclosure outweighs the damage to national security that might reasonably be expected from disclosure. _______________________________________________________________________________ >From "What's New?" at http://www.physicsweb.org Antarctic glaciers feel the heat [Friday July 24] The Pine Island Glacier in West Antarctica is shrinking at a startling rate according to satellite observations. And the "hinge-point" of the glacier is retreating at 1.2 km per year according to Eric Rignot of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California. Geophysicists believe that the glacier is theoretically unstable and that the retreat could become irreversible. Many believe that such an event would be strong evidence for climatic change. Rignot cautions that the retreat he has observed might be a short-lived phenomenon, but adds it could still have implications for the stability of ice-sheets along the entire Antarctic coastline (Science 281 549). Rignot used radar data taken between 1992 and 1996 by two European satellites, ERS-1 and ERS-2, to generate interference patterns that are sensitive to small vertical movements. These patterns provide information on the velocity of the ice - how fast it is creeping towards the bay - and the hinge point - the position on the glacier at which ice moves from resting on the bay bed to ice floating on the water. Recent measurements have suggested that the Pine Island glacier is melting at a much faster rate than other large ice shelves in the Antarctic. Researchers believed this was being caused by an influx of warm water from the Southern Pacific Ocean. Rignot's latest work concludes that 76 ± 2 km3 of ice is being discharged into the bay each year, while only 71 ± 7 km3 is replenished from the Antarctic interior - which indicates that the glacier is shrinking at a startling rate. If this data does herald the start of collapse for the Antarctic ice sheet, water levels could rise by more than 5 m within a couple of centuries. Global warming confirmed from space [Friday August 14] Differences in the temperature of the earth's atmosphere as measured by satellites and ground-based instruments have puzzled scientists for years, and caused some politicians to doubt the reality of global warming. Now, however, calculations by Frank Wentz and Matthias Schabel of Remote Sensing Systems in California have shown that small decays in the orbit of satellites may have caused the discrepancy (Nature 394 661). Previously satellite measurements have suggested that the atmosphere was cooling at 0.05 Kelvin per decade, while ground-based instruments showed an increase of 0.13 Kelvin per decade. However, as polar satellites orbit the Earth, they suffer atmospheric drag. The thickness and height of the Earth's atmosphere is dependent on the sun's solar activity. When solar activity is at a maximum, ultraviolet rays from the sun heat the upper atmosphere. This causes the atmosphere to expand outwards, which increases the drag experienced by satellites. Wentz and Schabel calculated that this caused the orbits of polar satellites operated by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) in the US to decay by 1.2 km per year over a 17 year period. They also discovered that the Microwave Sounding Unit (MSU) used to measure the troposphere temperature profile is very sensitive to height fluctuations. By developing a correction factor for the instrument, they were able to re-evaluate the satellite data. They found that the instrument now measured a temperature rise of 0.07 Kelvin per decade instead of the previously reported fall. This new figure is similar to results predicted by computer climate models and explains why the satellites had seen increased cooling in the troposphere during periods of increased solar activity in 1979-83 and 1989-92. Humans are the cause of climate change [Thursday November 26] The controversy over the relative contributions of greenhouse gas emissions and solar activity to global warming appears to have been resolved. Tom Wigley, Richard Smith and Benjamin Santer in the US contrasted global meteorological temperature data gathered over the past 115 years with results from two leading computer models. They found that the best fit to the data occurred when this century's 0.6 C global temperature rise is assumed to have been caused mainly by mankind's output of greenhouse gases (Science 282 1676). The team looked in particular for 'lag time' effects in the data. For example, the eruption of Mt Pinatubo in the Philippines in 1991 lowered the global temperature by 0.3 C in the following year as fine aerosols of volcanic ash and sulphuric acid caused a cooling effect. However, the team believes that volcanic eruptions have a short lived effect on the long-term temperature. They therefore looked at two possible variables that could adjust climate - greenhouse gases and changes in the sun's output. Wigley and colleagues ran the two independent computer models four times, each time with a different set of parameters. In the first data set, they created a world in which greenhouse gases remained constant over 100 years and changes in solar output do not affect the climate. In the second set they assumed that the Earth's climate can be affected by solar output - called solar forcing - but greenhouse gases remain constant. The third set had no solar output, but greenhouse gases rise over time. Finally the fourth set had a mixture of both solar forcing and rising levels of greenhouse gases. They first found that there was wide discrepancies between the output of both computer models and the experimental data in the first data set. This indicated that some mechanism was increasing the global temperature this century. Then they found that if solar heating was solely responsible for climate change, the Earth's climate would have to be six times more sensitive to solar heating than realistic estimates suggest. Wigley, Smith and Santer concluded that unlike a paper published in Physical Review Letters this week (see CERN plans global-warming experiment), the only model that matched both simulation and experimental data sets was the one containing a strong greenhouse gas effect and a small amount of solar heating. According to Wigley: "These results provide another important piece in the jigsaw puzzle of climate change, strengthening yet further our confidence that there has been a discernible human influence on climate. Furthermore, they provide additional evidence that the models used to make projections of future climate change are realistic." ________________________________________________________________________________ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 3 21:40:16 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA29121; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 21:37:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 21:37:26 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990404064356.01601484 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 00:43:56 -0500 To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: more music Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA29087 Resent-Message-ID: <"XiLF93.0.o67.Lgl1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26742 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:49 PM 4/3/99 -0700, you wrote: >To clarify what i have judged as good and evil, i should make the following >statements. Anything that moves individuals toward more freedom, is good. >Evil is that which arbitrarily restricts individual freedom. Here's what I came up with (I think there was something funny in that cactus drink so long ago): GOOD is benefitting locally by working for, and increasing, the greater good. BAD is benefitting locally by working against, and at the expense of, the greater good. Regards; Dennis ________________________________________________________________ Starfire http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/2301/starfire.html Unified Field Art http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/UFA1.JPG Tall Ships http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html Concentric Tori http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/GoldCTori_A.JPG Circle Of Fire - Dreamland - VR Avatars! Great Fun! http://www.artbellchatclub.com REPORT of the COMMISSION ON PROTECTING AND REDUCING GOVERNMENT SECRECY 1997 SENATE DOCUMENT 105-2 http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/commissions/secrecy/index.html ________________________________________ When I am working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I only think of how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong. -R. Buckminster Fuller- ________________________________________ 'G' defines 'objective art': "In real art there is nothing accidental. It is mathematics. Everything in it can be calculated, everything can be known beforehand. The artist knows and understands what he wants to convey and his work cannot produce one impression on one man and another impression on another, presuming of course, people on one level. It will always, and with mathematical certainty, produce one and the same impression. "At the same time the same work of art will produce different impressions on people of different levels. And people of lower levels will never receive from it what people of higher levels receive. This is real, objective art. - p26-p27 from "In Search Of The Miraculous" by P.D. Ouspensky - ______________________________________________________________________________ "Music, pure, natural, and harmonical, in the true and evident sense of the term, is the division of any key-note, or starting-point, into it's integral and ultimate parts, and the descending divisions will always answer to the ascending, having reference to the general whole. The essence and mystery in the development of harmonies consists in the fact that every key-note, or unit, is a nucleus including the past, the present, and the future, having in itself an inherent power, with a tendency to expand and contract. In the natural system, as each series rises, its contents expand and fall back to to the original limit from any point ascending or descending; we cannot perceive finality in any ultimate; every tone is related to higher and lower tones; and must be part of an organized whole." - p16 "Harmonies Of Tones And Colours Developed By Evolution" by F.J. Hughes - ______________________________________________________________________________ The image of the CIA foisted on the public is of a group organized to protect our country's interests. Instead, it is an organization of dangerous men trained in the black arts and deception to safeguard the interests of the powerful elite who have kept this planet in bondage for ages. Every individual who has shown unusual ability, including the psychic, has come under their surveilance. It is determined at headquarters in Washington, DC, whether or not it is in the best interests of the power structure for the person to be terminated. If so, a hit man is sent to arrange it. In this manner, many people over the years have met with untimely deaths. Many have wondered why the author has not met with a similar fate, since he has been stomping on the toes of the structure much harder than anyone else for many years. When the time is propitious for a great new idea to be introduced into the world, the power to enforce its introduction will accompany the one who is to introduce it. This power will far transcend that of any man-made organization that would oppose it. It is needless to state that many hit men have been expended in an effort to terminate the author. A former associate of the author with unusual abilities and a great mission to fulfill has had a similar run-in with the CIA. Every hit man sent to eliminate him has himself been terminated by a strange "accident". It is interesting to note that the CIA is now only a shadow of what it once was and all of its best hit men are long gone. Prior to Reagan's inauguration small newspaper articles kept hinting that the CIA was in big trouble. One of them mentioned that nearly 900 agents had been fired(?). The most recent of these articles stated that the morale and performance of the CIA had reached an all time low and "only drastic surgery would save the patient". It is also significant that such rumors and articles followed the run-ins the author and an associate had with the CIA men. A typical CIA agent is an individual with few scruples and he is also likely to be highly unstable emotionally. The above mentioned former associate of the author had an experience that confirmed this. An apartment just above one in which he was once living was occupied by a CIA agent sent there to monitor him. As has always been the case, the living quarters of everyone under their scrutiny is thoroughly bugged. For the more "important" cases there is a direct pipeline from this bugging to CIA headquarters. Unknown to the CIA at the time was that this associate was adept in astral projection. One evening the agent found out about this ability when he became aware of the fact that he was being monitored by the one he was supposed to be monitoring. His reaction was complete panic. He started to call headquarters but dropped the phone, rushed to the bathroom and began sobbing. The proceedings were automatically transmitted to headquarters. This individual had astrally visited headquarters, wherein it was decided by CIA officialdom that it was in the best interests that he be liquidated. Some prominent individuals in the public eye were there at the time. quote from "The Awesome Life Force" by Joseph H. Cater (p342-p343) _______________________________________________________________________________ Executive Order 12958 - http://www.spb.gov/html/12958.html Sec. 4.2. General Restrictions on Access. (b) Classified information shall remain under the control of the originating agency or its successor in function. An agency shall not disclose information originally classified by another agency without its authorization. An official or employee leaving agency service may not remove classified information from the agency's control. (e) Consistent with law, directives, and regulation, an agency head or senior agency official shall establish uniform procedures to ensure that automated information systems, including networks and telecommunications systems, that collect, create, communicate, compute, disseminate, process, or store classified information have controls that: (2) ensure the integrity of the information. ______________________________________________________________________________ Executive Order 12958 - http://www.spb.gov/html/12958.html Sec. 5.7. Sanctions. (a) If the Director of the Information Security Oversight Office finds that a violation of this order or its implementing directives may have occurred, the Director shall make a report to the head of the agency or to the senior agency official so that corrective steps, if appropriate, may be taken. (b) Officers and employees of the United States Government, and its contractors, licensees, certificate holders, and grantees shall be subject to appropriate sanctions if they knowingly, willfully, or negligently: (1) disclose to unauthorized persons information properly classified under this order or predecessor orders; (2) classify or continue the classification of information in violation of this order or any implementing directive; (3) create or continue a special access program contrary to the requirements of this order; ______________________________________________________________________________ Executive Order 12958 - http://www.spb.gov/html/12958.html Sec. 3.2. Authority for Declassification. (a) Information shall be declassified as soon as it no longer meets the standards for classification under this order. (b) It is presumed that information that continues to meet the classification requirements under this order requires continued protection. In some exceptional cases, however, the need to protect such information may be outweighed by the public interest in disclosure of the information, and in these cases the information should be declassified. When such questions arise, they shall be referred to the agency head or the senior agency official. That official will determine, as an exercise of discretion, whether the public interest in disclosure outweighs the damage to national security that might reasonably be expected from disclosure. _______________________________________________________________________________ >From "What's New?" at http://www.physicsweb.org Antarctic glaciers feel the heat [Friday July 24] The Pine Island Glacier in West Antarctica is shrinking at a startling rate according to satellite observations. And the "hinge-point" of the glacier is retreating at 1.2 km per year according to Eric Rignot of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California. Geophysicists believe that the glacier is theoretically unstable and that the retreat could become irreversible. Many believe that such an event would be strong evidence for climatic change. Rignot cautions that the retreat he has observed might be a short-lived phenomenon, but adds it could still have implications for the stability of ice-sheets along the entire Antarctic coastline (Science 281 549). Rignot used radar data taken between 1992 and 1996 by two European satellites, ERS-1 and ERS-2, to generate interference patterns that are sensitive to small vertical movements. These patterns provide information on the velocity of the ice - how fast it is creeping towards the bay - and the hinge point - the position on the glacier at which ice moves from resting on the bay bed to ice floating on the water. Recent measurements have suggested that the Pine Island glacier is melting at a much faster rate than other large ice shelves in the Antarctic. Researchers believed this was being caused by an influx of warm water from the Southern Pacific Ocean. Rignot's latest work concludes that 76 ± 2 km3 of ice is being discharged into the bay each year, while only 71 ± 7 km3 is replenished from the Antarctic interior - which indicates that the glacier is shrinking at a startling rate. If this data does herald the start of collapse for the Antarctic ice sheet, water levels could rise by more than 5 m within a couple of centuries. Global warming confirmed from space [Friday August 14] Differences in the temperature of the earth's atmosphere as measured by satellites and ground-based instruments have puzzled scientists for years, and caused some politicians to doubt the reality of global warming. Now, however, calculations by Frank Wentz and Matthias Schabel of Remote Sensing Systems in California have shown that small decays in the orbit of satellites may have caused the discrepancy (Nature 394 661). Previously satellite measurements have suggested that the atmosphere was cooling at 0.05 Kelvin per decade, while ground-based instruments showed an increase of 0.13 Kelvin per decade. However, as polar satellites orbit the Earth, they suffer atmospheric drag. The thickness and height of the Earth's atmosphere is dependent on the sun's solar activity. When solar activity is at a maximum, ultraviolet rays from the sun heat the upper atmosphere. This causes the atmosphere to expand outwards, which increases the drag experienced by satellites. Wentz and Schabel calculated that this caused the orbits of polar satellites operated by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) in the US to decay by 1.2 km per year over a 17 year period. They also discovered that the Microwave Sounding Unit (MSU) used to measure the troposphere temperature profile is very sensitive to height fluctuations. By developing a correction factor for the instrument, they were able to re-evaluate the satellite data. They found that the instrument now measured a temperature rise of 0.07 Kelvin per decade instead of the previously reported fall. This new figure is similar to results predicted by computer climate models and explains why the satellites had seen increased cooling in the troposphere during periods of increased solar activity in 1979-83 and 1989-92. Humans are the cause of climate change [Thursday November 26] The controversy over the relative contributions of greenhouse gas emissions and solar activity to global warming appears to have been resolved. Tom Wigley, Richard Smith and Benjamin Santer in the US contrasted global meteorological temperature data gathered over the past 115 years with results from two leading computer models. They found that the best fit to the data occurred when this century's 0.6 C global temperature rise is assumed to have been caused mainly by mankind's output of greenhouse gases (Science 282 1676). The team looked in particular for 'lag time' effects in the data. For example, the eruption of Mt Pinatubo in the Philippines in 1991 lowered the global temperature by 0.3 C in the following year as fine aerosols of volcanic ash and sulphuric acid caused a cooling effect. However, the team believes that volcanic eruptions have a short lived effect on the long-term temperature. They therefore looked at two possible variables that could adjust climate - greenhouse gases and changes in the sun's output. Wigley and colleagues ran the two independent computer models four times, each time with a different set of parameters. In the first data set, they created a world in which greenhouse gases remained constant over 100 years and changes in solar output do not affect the climate. In the second set they assumed that the Earth's climate can be affected by solar output - called solar forcing - but greenhouse gases remain constant. The third set had no solar output, but greenhouse gases rise over time. Finally the fourth set had a mixture of both solar forcing and rising levels of greenhouse gases. They first found that there was wide discrepancies between the output of both computer models and the experimental data in the first data set. This indicated that some mechanism was increasing the global temperature this century. Then they found that if solar heating was solely responsible for climate change, the Earth's climate would have to be six times more sensitive to solar heating than realistic estimates suggest. Wigley, Smith and Santer concluded that unlike a paper published in Physical Review Letters this week (see CERN plans global-warming experiment), the only model that matched both simulation and experimental data sets was the one containing a strong greenhouse gas effect and a small amount of solar heating. According to Wigley: "These results provide another important piece in the jigsaw puzzle of climate change, strengthening yet further our confidence that there has been a discernible human influence on climate. Furthermore, they provide additional evidence that the models used to make projections of future climate change are realistic." ________________________________________________________________________________ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 4 04:12:54 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA31834; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 04:11:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 04:11:40 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990404111816.015d5138 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 07:18:16 -0400 To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: Mr. Zimmerman reeeeeeeds Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id EAA31774 Resent-Message-ID: <"lppdL3.0.Jn7.fZq1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26743 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:30 AM 4/4/99 EST, you wrote: >This confirms FTIR standpoint in COLD FUSION; SECRET ENERGY REVOLUTION that >free energy is a private development with no reason for Government >interference.and it would be advantageous to erect a firewall between free >energy and Government. How many times does New Tech have to be slapped in >the face before it gets the message.? "They " dont want this so just ignore >"them." It would be much better if we could get the OK from 'them'. Only recently, has concrete evidence of the global warming issue surfaced (see physicsweb.org reference below). Certainly, the people causing this interference against Free Energy have not seen this data yet. Perhaps we should ask 'them' what would the weather have to do to convince these people that there is something wrong here. At any rate, this data which indicates the reality and seriousness of globalwarming, must be taken into account when determining the threat to national security from encouraging Free Energy research (see Executive Order 12958 Sec 3.2b referenced below). I'd really like to see this national security - Free Energy issue challenged under due process with respect to the latest satellite globalwarming data (with Greenland data of the one to two year extreme climate change evidence). Without this OK from 'them', I think it may be a wise decision to wait for if and when the sh*t really hits the fan. Then 'they' will be too busy dealing with natural catastrophies in their own lives to bother with a few scientist who are only trying to save themselves. Maybe Mr. Zimmerman might make a good test case after all. Perhaps we could ask Mr. Zimmerman to come up with his 'reeeeding' material that supposedly proves Free Energy is a hoax and see if it stands up in a court of law. If it doesn't, moving the conferences off of government property was an improper act. Mr. Zimmerman should then be reprimanded by his office. Now, if Mr. Zimmerman retracts and states his real motive was a national security issue, we maybe able to use EO12958 Sec3.2b to bring the said satellite globalwarming data to the appropriate agency official, and have Free Energy technology officially reclassified. Hmmm.... Regards; Dennis ________________________________________________________________ Starfire http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/2301/starfire.html Unified Field Art http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/UFA1.JPG Tall Ships http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html Concentric Tori http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/GoldCTori_A.JPG Circle Of Fire - Dreamland - VR Avatars! Great Fun! http://www.artbellchatclub.com REPORT of the COMMISSION ON PROTECTING AND REDUCING GOVERNMENT SECRECY 1997 SENATE DOCUMENT 105-2 http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/commissions/secrecy/index.html ________________________________________ When I am working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I only think of how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong. -R. Buckminster Fuller- ________________________________________ 'G' defines 'objective art': "In real art there is nothing accidental. It is mathematics. Everything in it can be calculated, everything can be known beforehand. The artist knows and understands what he wants to convey and his work cannot produce one impression on one man and another impression on another, presuming of course, people on one level. It will always, and with mathematical certainty, produce one and the same impression. "At the same time the same work of art will produce different impressions on people of different levels. And people of lower levels will never receive from it what people of higher levels receive. This is real, objective art. - p26-p27 from "In Search Of The Miraculous" by P.D. Ouspensky - ______________________________________________________________________________ "Music, pure, natural, and harmonical, in the true and evident sense of the term, is the division of any key-note, or starting-point, into it's integral and ultimate parts, and the descending divisions will always answer to the ascending, having reference to the general whole. The essence and mystery in the development of harmonies consists in the fact that every key-note, or unit, is a nucleus including the past, the present, and the future, having in itself an inherent power, with a tendency to expand and contract. In the natural system, as each series rises, its contents expand and fall back to to the original limit from any point ascending or descending; we cannot perceive finality in any ultimate; every tone is related to higher and lower tones; and must be part of an organized whole." - p16 "Harmonies Of Tones And Colours Developed By Evolution" by F.J. Hughes - ______________________________________________________________________________ The image of the CIA foisted on the public is of a group organized to protect our country's interests. Instead, it is an organization of dangerous men trained in the black arts and deception to safeguard the interests of the powerful elite who have kept this planet in bondage for ages. Every individual who has shown unusual ability, including the psychic, has come under their surveilance. It is determined at headquarters in Washington, DC, whether or not it is in the best interests of the power structure for the person to be terminated. If so, a hit man is sent to arrange it. In this manner, many people over the years have met with untimely deaths. Many have wondered why the author has not met with a similar fate, since he has been stomping on the toes of the structure much harder than anyone else for many years. When the time is propitious for a great new idea to be introduced into the world, the power to enforce its introduction will accompany the one who is to introduce it. This power will far transcend that of any man-made organization that would oppose it. It is needless to state that many hit men have been expended in an effort to terminate the author. A former associate of the author with unusual abilities and a great mission to fulfill has had a similar run-in with the CIA. Every hit man sent to eliminate him has himself been terminated by a strange "accident". It is interesting to note that the CIA is now only a shadow of what it once was and all of its best hit men are long gone. Prior to Reagan's inauguration small newspaper articles kept hinting that the CIA was in big trouble. One of them mentioned that nearly 900 agents had been fired(?). The most recent of these articles stated that the morale and performance of the CIA had reached an all time low and "only drastic surgery would save the patient". It is also significant that such rumors and articles followed the run-ins the author and an associate had with the CIA men. A typical CIA agent is an individual with few scruples and he is also likely to be highly unstable emotionally. The above mentioned former associate of the author had an experience that confirmed this. An apartment just above one in which he was once living was occupied by a CIA agent sent there to monitor him. As has always been the case, the living quarters of everyone under their scrutiny is thoroughly bugged. For the more "important" cases there is a direct pipeline from this bugging to CIA headquarters. Unknown to the CIA at the time was that this associate was adept in astral projection. One evening the agent found out about this ability when he became aware of the fact that he was being monitored by the one he was supposed to be monitoring. His reaction was complete panic. He started to call headquarters but dropped the phone, rushed to the bathroom and began sobbing. The proceedings were automatically transmitted to headquarters. This individual had astrally visited headquarters, wherein it was decided by CIA officialdom that it was in the best interests that he be liquidated. Some prominent individuals in the public eye were there at the time. quote from "The Awesome Life Force" by Joseph H. Cater (p342-p343) _______________________________________________________________________________ Executive Order 12958 - http://www.spb.gov/html/12958.html Sec. 4.2. General Restrictions on Access. (b) Classified information shall remain under the control of the originating agency or its successor in function. An agency shall not disclose information originally classified by another agency without its authorization. An official or employee leaving agency service may not remove classified information from the agency's control. (e) Consistent with law, directives, and regulation, an agency head or senior agency official shall establish uniform procedures to ensure that automated information systems, including networks and telecommunications systems, that collect, create, communicate, compute, disseminate, process, or store classified information have controls that: (2) ensure the integrity of the information. ______________________________________________________________________________ Executive Order 12958 - http://www.spb.gov/html/12958.html Sec. 5.7. Sanctions. (a) If the Director of the Information Security Oversight Office finds that a violation of this order or its implementing directives may have occurred, the Director shall make a report to the head of the agency or to the senior agency official so that corrective steps, if appropriate, may be taken. (b) Officers and employees of the United States Government, and its contractors, licensees, certificate holders, and grantees shall be subject to appropriate sanctions if they knowingly, willfully, or negligently: (1) disclose to unauthorized persons information properly classified under this order or predecessor orders; (2) classify or continue the classification of information in violation of this order or any implementing directive; (3) create or continue a special access program contrary to the requirements of this order; ______________________________________________________________________________ Executive Order 12958 - http://www.spb.gov/html/12958.html Sec. 3.2. Authority for Declassification. (a) Information shall be declassified as soon as it no longer meets the standards for classification under this order. (b) It is presumed that information that continues to meet the classification requirements under this order requires continued protection. In some exceptional cases, however, the need to protect such information may be outweighed by the public interest in disclosure of the information, and in these cases the information should be declassified. When such questions arise, they shall be referred to the agency head or the senior agency official. That official will determine, as an exercise of discretion, whether the public interest in disclosure outweighs the damage to national security that might reasonably be expected from disclosure. _______________________________________________________________________________ >From "What's New?" at http://www.physicsweb.org Antarctic glaciers feel the heat [Friday July 24] The Pine Island Glacier in West Antarctica is shrinking at a startling rate according to satellite observations. And the "hinge-point" of the glacier is retreating at 1.2 km per year according to Eric Rignot of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California. Geophysicists believe that the glacier is theoretically unstable and that the retreat could become irreversible. Many believe that such an event would be strong evidence for climatic change. Rignot cautions that the retreat he has observed might be a short-lived phenomenon, but adds it could still have implications for the stability of ice-sheets along the entire Antarctic coastline (Science 281 549). Rignot used radar data taken between 1992 and 1996 by two European satellites, ERS-1 and ERS-2, to generate interference patterns that are sensitive to small vertical movements. These patterns provide information on the velocity of the ice - how fast it is creeping towards the bay - and the hinge point - the position on the glacier at which ice moves from resting on the bay bed to ice floating on the water. Recent measurements have suggested that the Pine Island glacier is melting at a much faster rate than other large ice shelves in the Antarctic. Researchers believed this was being caused by an influx of warm water from the Southern Pacific Ocean. Rignot's latest work concludes that 76 ± 2 km3 of ice is being discharged into the bay each year, while only 71 ± 7 km3 is replenished from the Antarctic interior - which indicates that the glacier is shrinking at a startling rate. If this data does herald the start of collapse for the Antarctic ice sheet, water levels could rise by more than 5 m within a couple of centuries. Global warming confirmed from space [Friday August 14] Differences in the temperature of the earth's atmosphere as measured by satellites and ground-based instruments have puzzled scientists for years, and caused some politicians to doubt the reality of global warming. Now, however, calculations by Frank Wentz and Matthias Schabel of Remote Sensing Systems in California have shown that small decays in the orbit of satellites may have caused the discrepancy (Nature 394 661). Previously satellite measurements have suggested that the atmosphere was cooling at 0.05 Kelvin per decade, while ground-based instruments showed an increase of 0.13 Kelvin per decade. However, as polar satellites orbit the Earth, they suffer atmospheric drag. The thickness and height of the Earth's atmosphere is dependent on the sun's solar activity. When solar activity is at a maximum, ultraviolet rays from the sun heat the upper atmosphere. This causes the atmosphere to expand outwards, which increases the drag experienced by satellites. Wentz and Schabel calculated that this caused the orbits of polar satellites operated by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) in the US to decay by 1.2 km per year over a 17 year period. They also discovered that the Microwave Sounding Unit (MSU) used to measure the troposphere temperature profile is very sensitive to height fluctuations. By developing a correction factor for the instrument, they were able to re-evaluate the satellite data. They found that the instrument now measured a temperature rise of 0.07 Kelvin per decade instead of the previously reported fall. This new figure is similar to results predicted by computer climate models and explains why the satellites had seen increased cooling in the troposphere during periods of increased solar activity in 1979-83 and 1989-92. Humans are the cause of climate change [Thursday November 26] The controversy over the relative contributions of greenhouse gas emissions and solar activity to global warming appears to have been resolved. Tom Wigley, Richard Smith and Benjamin Santer in the US contrasted global meteorological temperature data gathered over the past 115 years with results from two leading computer models. They found that the best fit to the data occurred when this century's 0.6 C global temperature rise is assumed to have been caused mainly by mankind's output of greenhouse gases (Science 282 1676). The team looked in particular for 'lag time' effects in the data. For example, the eruption of Mt Pinatubo in the Philippines in 1991 lowered the global temperature by 0.3 C in the following year as fine aerosols of volcanic ash and sulphuric acid caused a cooling effect. However, the team believes that volcanic eruptions have a short lived effect on the long-term temperature. They therefore looked at two possible variables that could adjust climate - greenhouse gases and changes in the sun's output. Wigley and colleagues ran the two independent computer models four times, each time with a different set of parameters. In the first data set, they created a world in which greenhouse gases remained constant over 100 years and changes in solar output do not affect the climate. In the second set they assumed that the Earth's climate can be affected by solar output - called solar forcing - but greenhouse gases remain constant. The third set had no solar output, but greenhouse gases rise over time. Finally the fourth set had a mixture of both solar forcing and rising levels of greenhouse gases. They first found that there was wide discrepancies between the output of both computer models and the experimental data in the first data set. This indicated that some mechanism was increasing the global temperature this century. Then they found that if solar heating was solely responsible for climate change, the Earth's climate would have to be six times more sensitive to solar heating than realistic estimates suggest. Wigley, Smith and Santer concluded that unlike a paper published in Physical Review Letters this week (see CERN plans global-warming experiment), the only model that matched both simulation and experimental data sets was the one containing a strong greenhouse gas effect and a small amount of solar heating. According to Wigley: "These results provide another important piece in the jigsaw puzzle of climate change, strengthening yet further our confidence that there has been a discernible human influence on climate. Furthermore, they provide additional evidence that the models used to make projections of future climate change are realistic." ________________________________________________________________________________ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 4 08:01:05 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA29544; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 08:00:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 08:00:02 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990404150542.0160938c popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 11:05:42 -0400 To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: An Easter Gift Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA29520 Resent-Message-ID: <"tPSgF1.0.UD7.ovt1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26744 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Inventors who have had a secrecy order placed on their patent application have the right of due compensation for damages resulting from said secrecy issuance (see 35 USC Sec 183 referenced below). There is now scientific evidence that globalwarming is a fact and that it is caused by the burning of fossil fuels (see www.physicsweb.org references below). Therefore, if the secreted patent deals with Free Energy such that use of said device commercially would have stopped or reversed the globalwarming process, the agency issuing the secrecy order will also be financially responsible for property damages resulting from extreme weather conditions caused by said globalwarming effect for as long as the secrecy order is in effect. Happy Easter; Dennis ________________________________________________________________ Starfire http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/2301/starfire.html Unified Field Art http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/UFA1.JPG Tall Ships http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html Concentric Tori http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/GoldCTori_A.JPG Circle Of Fire - Dreamland - VR Avatars! Great Fun! http://www.artbellchatclub.com REPORT of the COMMISSION ON PROTECTING AND REDUCING GOVERNMENT SECRECY 1997 SENATE DOCUMENT 105-2 http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/commissions/secrecy/index.html ________________________________________ When I am working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I only think of how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong. -R. Buckminster Fuller- ________________________________________ 'G' defines 'objective art': "In real art there is nothing accidental. It is mathematics. Everything in it can be calculated, everything can be known beforehand. The artist knows and understands what he wants to convey and his work cannot produce one impression on one man and another impression on another, presuming of course, people on one level. It will always, and with mathematical certainty, produce one and the same impression. "At the same time the same work of art will produce different impressions on people of different levels. And people of lower levels will never receive from it what people of higher levels receive. This is real, objective art. - p26-p27 from "In Search Of The Miraculous" by P.D. Ouspensky - ______________________________________________________________________________ "Music, pure, natural, and harmonical, in the true and evident sense of the term, is the division of any key-note, or starting-point, into it's integral and ultimate parts, and the descending divisions will always answer to the ascending, having reference to the general whole. The essence and mystery in the development of harmonies consists in the fact that every key-note, or unit, is a nucleus including the past, the present, and the future, having in itself an inherent power, with a tendency to expand and contract. In the natural system, as each series rises, its contents expand and fall back to to the original limit from any point ascending or descending; we cannot perceive finality in any ultimate; every tone is related to higher and lower tones; and must be part of an organized whole." - p16 "Harmonies Of Tones And Colours Developed By Evolution" by F.J. Hughes - ______________________________________________________________________________ The image of the CIA foisted on the public is of a group organized to protect our country's interests. Instead, it is an organization of dangerous men trained in the black arts and deception to safeguard the interests of the powerful elite who have kept this planet in bondage for ages. Every individual who has shown unusual ability, including the psychic, has come under their surveilance. It is determined at headquarters in Washington, DC, whether or not it is in the best interests of the power structure for the person to be terminated. If so, a hit man is sent to arrange it. In this manner, many people over the years have met with untimely deaths. Many have wondered why the author has not met with a similar fate, since he has been stomping on the toes of the structure much harder than anyone else for many years. When the time is propitious for a great new idea to be introduced into the world, the power to enforce its introduction will accompany the one who is to introduce it. This power will far transcend that of any man-made organization that would oppose it. It is needless to state that many hit men have been expended in an effort to terminate the author. A former associate of the author with unusual abilities and a great mission to fulfill has had a similar run-in with the CIA. Every hit man sent to eliminate him has himself been terminated by a strange "accident". It is interesting to note that the CIA is now only a shadow of what it once was and all of its best hit men are long gone. Prior to Reagan's inauguration small newspaper articles kept hinting that the CIA was in big trouble. One of them mentioned that nearly 900 agents had been fired(?). The most recent of these articles stated that the morale and performance of the CIA had reached an all time low and "only drastic surgery would save the patient". It is also significant that such rumors and articles followed the run-ins the author and an associate had with the CIA men. A typical CIA agent is an individual with few scruples and he is also likely to be highly unstable emotionally. The above mentioned former associate of the author had an experience that confirmed this. An apartment just above one in which he was once living was occupied by a CIA agent sent there to monitor him. As has always been the case, the living quarters of everyone under their scrutiny is thoroughly bugged. For the more "important" cases there is a direct pipeline from this bugging to CIA headquarters. Unknown to the CIA at the time was that this associate was adept in astral projection. One evening the agent found out about this ability when he became aware of the fact that he was being monitored by the one he was supposed to be monitoring. His reaction was complete panic. He started to call headquarters but dropped the phone, rushed to the bathroom and began sobbing. The proceedings were automatically transmitted to headquarters. This individual had astrally visited headquarters, wherein it was decided by CIA officialdom that it was in the best interests that he be liquidated. Some prominent individuals in the public eye were there at the time. quote from "The Awesome Life Force" by Joseph H. Cater (p342-p343) _______________________________________________________________________________ Executive Order 12958 - http://www.spb.gov/html/12958.html Sec. 4.2. General Restrictions on Access. (b) Classified information shall remain under the control of the originating agency or its successor in function. An agency shall not disclose information originally classified by another agency without its authorization. An official or employee leaving agency service may not remove classified information from the agency's control. (e) Consistent with law, directives, and regulation, an agency head or senior agency official shall establish uniform procedures to ensure that automated information systems, including networks and telecommunications systems, that collect, create, communicate, compute, disseminate, process, or store classified information have controls that: (2) ensure the integrity of the information. ______________________________________________________________________________ Executive Order 12958 - http://www.spb.gov/html/12958.html Sec. 5.7. Sanctions. (a) If the Director of the Information Security Oversight Office finds that a violation of this order or its implementing directives may have occurred, the Director shall make a report to the head of the agency or to the senior agency official so that corrective steps, if appropriate, may be taken. (b) Officers and employees of the United States Government, and its contractors, licensees, certificate holders, and grantees shall be subject to appropriate sanctions if they knowingly, willfully, or negligently: (1) disclose to unauthorized persons information properly classified under this order or predecessor orders; (2) classify or continue the classification of information in violation of this order or any implementing directive; (3) create or continue a special access program contrary to the requirements of this order; ______________________________________________________________________________ Executive Order 12958 - http://www.spb.gov/html/12958.html Sec. 3.2. Authority for Declassification. (a) Information shall be declassified as soon as it no longer meets the standards for classification under this order. (b) It is presumed that information that continues to meet the classification requirements under this order requires continued protection. In some exceptional cases, however, the need to protect such information may be outweighed by the public interest in disclosure of the information, and in these cases the information should be declassified. When such questions arise, they shall be referred to the agency head or the senior agency official. That official will determine, as an exercise of discretion, whether the public interest in disclosure outweighs the damage to national security that might reasonably be expected from disclosure. _______________________________________________________________________________ >From "What's New?" at http://www.physicsweb.org Antarctic glaciers feel the heat [Friday July 24] The Pine Island Glacier in West Antarctica is shrinking at a startling rate according to satellite observations. And the "hinge-point" of the glacier is retreating at 1.2 km per year according to Eric Rignot of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California. Geophysicists believe that the glacier is theoretically unstable and that the retreat could become irreversible. Many believe that such an event would be strong evidence for climatic change. Rignot cautions that the retreat he has observed might be a short-lived phenomenon, but adds it could still have implications for the stability of ice-sheets along the entire Antarctic coastline (Science 281 549). Rignot used radar data taken between 1992 and 1996 by two European satellites, ERS-1 and ERS-2, to generate interference patterns that are sensitive to small vertical movements. These patterns provide information on the velocity of the ice - how fast it is creeping towards the bay - and the hinge point - the position on the glacier at which ice moves from resting on the bay bed to ice floating on the water. Recent measurements have suggested that the Pine Island glacier is melting at a much faster rate than other large ice shelves in the Antarctic. Researchers believed this was being caused by an influx of warm water from the Southern Pacific Ocean. Rignot's latest work concludes that 76 ± 2 km3 of ice is being discharged into the bay each year, while only 71 ± 7 km3 is replenished from the Antarctic interior - which indicates that the glacier is shrinking at a startling rate. If this data does herald the start of collapse for the Antarctic ice sheet, water levels could rise by more than 5 m within a couple of centuries. Global warming confirmed from space [Friday August 14] Differences in the temperature of the earth's atmosphere as measured by satellites and ground-based instruments have puzzled scientists for years, and caused some politicians to doubt the reality of global warming. Now, however, calculations by Frank Wentz and Matthias Schabel of Remote Sensing Systems in California have shown that small decays in the orbit of satellites may have caused the discrepancy (Nature 394 661). Previously satellite measurements have suggested that the atmosphere was cooling at 0.05 Kelvin per decade, while ground-based instruments showed an increase of 0.13 Kelvin per decade. However, as polar satellites orbit the Earth, they suffer atmospheric drag. The thickness and height of the Earth's atmosphere is dependent on the sun's solar activity. When solar activity is at a maximum, ultraviolet rays from the sun heat the upper atmosphere. This causes the atmosphere to expand outwards, which increases the drag experienced by satellites. Wentz and Schabel calculated that this caused the orbits of polar satellites operated by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) in the US to decay by 1.2 km per year over a 17 year period. They also discovered that the Microwave Sounding Unit (MSU) used to measure the troposphere temperature profile is very sensitive to height fluctuations. By developing a correction factor for the instrument, they were able to re-evaluate the satellite data. They found that the instrument now measured a temperature rise of 0.07 Kelvin per decade instead of the previously reported fall. This new figure is similar to results predicted by computer climate models and explains why the satellites had seen increased cooling in the troposphere during periods of increased solar activity in 1979-83 and 1989-92. Humans are the cause of climate change [Thursday November 26] The controversy over the relative contributions of greenhouse gas emissions and solar activity to global warming appears to have been resolved. Tom Wigley, Richard Smith and Benjamin Santer in the US contrasted global meteorological temperature data gathered over the past 115 years with results from two leading computer models. They found that the best fit to the data occurred when this century's 0.6 C global temperature rise is assumed to have been caused mainly by mankind's output of greenhouse gases (Science 282 1676). The team looked in particular for 'lag time' effects in the data. For example, the eruption of Mt Pinatubo in the Philippines in 1991 lowered the global temperature by 0.3 C in the following year as fine aerosols of volcanic ash and sulphuric acid caused a cooling effect. However, the team believes that volcanic eruptions have a short lived effect on the long-term temperature. They therefore looked at two possible variables that could adjust climate - greenhouse gases and changes in the sun's output. Wigley and colleagues ran the two independent computer models four times, each time with a different set of parameters. In the first data set, they created a world in which greenhouse gases remained constant over 100 years and changes in solar output do not affect the climate. In the second set they assumed that the Earth's climate can be affected by solar output - called solar forcing - but greenhouse gases remain constant. The third set had no solar output, but greenhouse gases rise over time. Finally the fourth set had a mixture of both solar forcing and rising levels of greenhouse gases. They first found that there was wide discrepancies between the output of both computer models and the experimental data in the first data set. This indicated that some mechanism was increasing the global temperature this century. Then they found that if solar heating was solely responsible for climate change, the Earth's climate would have to be six times more sensitive to solar heating than realistic estimates suggest. Wigley, Smith and Santer concluded that unlike a paper published in Physical Review Letters this week (see CERN plans global-warming experiment), the only model that matched both simulation and experimental data sets was the one containing a strong greenhouse gas effect and a small amount of solar heating. According to Wigley: "These results provide another important piece in the jigsaw puzzle of climate change, strengthening yet further our confidence that there has been a discernible human influence on climate. Furthermore, they provide additional evidence that the models used to make projections of future climate change are realistic." ________________________________________________________________________________ http://www.bitlaw.com/source/35usc/183.html U.S. Patent Act - Patent Laws Title 35 United States Code Section 183, Right to compensation An applicant, his successors, assigns, or legal representatives, whose patent is withheld as herein provided, shall have the right, beginning at the date the applicant is notified that, except for such order, his application is otherwise in condition for allowance, or February 1, 1952, whichever is later, and ending six years after a patent is issued thereon, to apply to the head of any department or agency who caused the order to be issued for compensation for the damage caused by the order of secrecy and/or for the use of the invention by the Government, resulting from his disclosure. The right to compensation for use shall begin on the date of the first use of the invention by the Government. The head of the department or agency is authorized, upon the presentation of a claim, to enter into an agreement with the applicant, his successors, assigns, or legal representatives, in full settlement for the damage and/or use. This settlement agreement shall be conclusive for all purposes not withstanding any other provision of law to the contrary. If full settlement of the claim cannot be effected, the head of the department or agency may award and pay to such applicant, his successors, assigns, or legal representatives, a sum not exceeding 75 per centum of the sum which the head of the department or agency considers just compensation for the damage and/or use. A claimant may bring suit against the United States in the United States Claims Court [United States Court of Federal Claims] or in the District Court of the United States for the district in which such claimant is a resident for an amount which when added to the award shall constitute just compensation for the damage and/or use of the invention by the Government. The owner of any patent issued upon an application that was subject to a secrecy order issued pursuant to section 181 of this title, who did not apply for compensation as above provided, shall have the right, after the date of issuance of such patent, to bring suit in the United States Claims Court [United States Court of Federal Claims] for just compensation for the damage caused by reason of the order of secrecy and/or use by the Government of the invention resulting from his disclosure. The right to compensation for use shall begin on the date of the first use of the invention by the Government. In a suit under the provisions of this section the United States may avail itself of all defenses it may plead in an action under section 1498 of title 28. This section shall not confer a right of action on anyone or his successors, assigns, or legal representatives who, while in the full-time employment or service of the United States, discovered, invented, or developed the invention on which the claim is based. ____________________________________________________________________________ ______ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 4 08:48:49 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA07989; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 08:46:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 08:46:09 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <7125cdde.2438e83b aol.com> Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 12:07:23 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: on suggestion for moving to another list To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"y_NmJ.0.ly1.1bu1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26745 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/03/1999 21:17:41 Pacific Daylight Time, rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au writes: > Since you are doing hard experiments, and > reporting on them, it would seem ideal. > Also I would consider a move to vortcor-l a promotion, not a demotion as > you seem to feel. > I think most vortexians are also subscribed to vortcor-l, so I doubt the > size of your audience would shrink, and your messages would stand out > like a sore thumb (almost nothing gets posted there). > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > Robin, A promotion/demotion? I never thought that at all. I have never seen a post on Vortcor-l and I don't even know if I am subscribed. I really enjoy reading all the posts here, on every possible subject. Yes, there is noise too, but it's a rather a kind of happy noise ! Unless there is a general consensus for such a move I will hang in here. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 4 09:17:49 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA15028; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 09:16:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 09:16:54 -0700 Message-ID: <001401be7eb6$3b0e67a0$19684fc6 default> From: "mrand access" To: Subject: Re: H2K: on suggestion for moving to another list Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 09:14:30 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"8s8pJ1.0.kg3.r1v1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26746 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin, Where is vortcor-l? I also have not seen any posts. Regards, Michael Randall >In a message dated 04/03/1999 21:17:41 Pacific Daylight Time, >rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au writes: > >> Since you are doing hard experiments, and >> reporting on them, it would seem ideal. >> Also I would consider a move to vortcor-l a promotion, not a demotion as >> you seem to feel. >> I think most vortexians are also subscribed to vortcor-l, so I doubt the >> size of your audience would shrink, and your messages would stand out >> like a sore thumb (almost nothing gets posted there). >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Robin van Spaandonk >> > >Robin, A promotion/demotion? I never thought that at all. I have never >seen a post on Vortcor-l and I don't even know if I am subscribed. I really >enjoy reading all the posts here, on every possible subject. Yes, there is >noise too, but it's a rather a kind of happy noise ! >Unless there is a general consensus for such a move I will hang in here. > >Regards, >Vince Cockeram >Las Vegas Nevada >702-254-2122 > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 4 10:14:32 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA01567; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 10:13:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 10:13:49 -0700 Message-ID: <000701be7ebe$c4746140$cb4f7dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: Subject: Re: Mr. Zimmerman reeeeeeeds Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 13:15:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"6mh7W3.0.OO.Ctv1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26747 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dennis Lee writes: >>This confirms FTIR standpoint in COLD FUSION; SECRET ENERGY REVOLUTION that >>free energy is a private development with no reason for Government >>interference.and it would be advantageous to erect a firewall between free >>energy and Government. How many times does New Tech have to be slapped in >>the face before it gets the message.? "They " dont want this so just ignore >>"them." > >Maybe Mr. Zimmerman might make a good test case after all. Perhaps we could >ask Mr. Zimmerman to come up with his 'reeeeding' material that supposedly >proves Free Energy is a hoax and see if it stands up in a court of law. If >it doesn't, moving the conferences off of government property was an >improper act. Mr. Zimmerman should then be reprimanded by his office. Now, >if Mr. Zimmerman retracts and states his real motive was a national security >issue, we maybe able to use EO12958 Sec3.2b to bring the said satellite >globalwarming data to the appropriate agency official, and have Free Energy >technology officially reclassified. Good point. Enjoyed reading the links. And BTW, that's, ahem, 'Future Energy'. I had misgivings when I learned that COFE was scheduled at a Fed. Gov't. facility. I thought it would be worthwhile to gain the implication of approval by meeting at State or Commerce halls, but was not suprised that the bigotry occurred. Frankly, I was amazed to receive an invitation in a State Department envelope. Ed Wall New Energy Research Laboratory Cold Fusion Technology From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 4 10:37:59 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA06889; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 10:36:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 10:36:39 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990404174247.0162cc50 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 13:42:47 -0400 To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: SVP Component Source and Info Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA06627 Resent-Message-ID: <"VMKy13.0.Bh1.cCw1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26749 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:57 AM 4/4/99 -0800, you wrote: >> I am looking for any "prefabricated" musical "tine" scales similar to the ones used by Mr. Keely as seen in all the pictures of his devices. >> >I am hopeful of establishing an expanded workshop this summer or fall >wherein I can begin producing these and other SVP type items. I do not >know of anyone producing them now. I've been thinking about the SVP 'antenna arrays' seen on Keely devices, the function of which you recently described as filters of unwanted frequencies. I imagine that the the length of each element defines the standing wave frequency which is filtered out. Anyways, V recently returned from a Computer Game Developer's Conference with (among a pile of stuff) a Logitec promotional device. It advertised the latest product. It was also vibrated by a motor spinning an eccentric weight. I then noticed that my hand sort of looked like the SVP 'antenna array' mounted at one end of the Dynasphere main shaft. I attached the vibrating gizmo to the back of my hand with rubberbands. I theorized that fingers might channel and attenuate vibrations similarly. I concluded that experimentation was necessary to test the concept. Well to make a fairly long and complex story short, I believe sympathetic vibratory resonance was successfully achieved with V's mass chord (several times!). ;) V would like to state for the record that Keely technology has already enhanced the quality of her life. :) BTW each finger feels different and the respective fingertip pressures must be varied before resonance is detected. >> also is there a means to determine the mass chord of an object, say a sort of vibratory "strobe" scope? Thank you for your time and trouble >> >There are many high-tech vibration monitoring systems on the market. >These can provide vibration information within their ranges of >operation. None are even close to determining "Chord of Mass" as used by >Keely. Maybe some day such a device could be developed. This scanning laser vibrometer can be extended to the MHz range. Is the MHz region still too low Dale? http://www.arl.psu.edu/facilities/laserviblab/laserviblab.html Regards; Dennis ________________________________________________________________ Starfire http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/2301/starfire.html Unified Field Art http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/UFA1.JPG Tall Ships http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/tallship.html Concentric Tori http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/GoldCTori_A.JPG Circle Of Fire - Dreamland - VR Avatars! Great Fun! http://www.artbellchatclub.com REPORT of the COMMISSION ON PROTECTING AND REDUCING GOVERNMENT SECRECY 1997 SENATE DOCUMENT 105-2 http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/commissions/secrecy/index.html ________________________________________ When I am working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I only think of how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong. -R. Buckminster Fuller- ________________________________________ 'G' defines 'objective art': "In real art there is nothing accidental. It is mathematics. Everything in it can be calculated, everything can be known beforehand. The artist knows and understands what he wants to convey and his work cannot produce one impression on one man and another impression on another, presuming of course, people on one level. It will always, and with mathematical certainty, produce one and the same impression. "At the same time the same work of art will produce different impressions on people of different levels. And people of lower levels will never receive from it what people of higher levels receive. This is real, objective art. - p26-p27 from "In Search Of The Miraculous" by P.D. Ouspensky - ______________________________________________________________________________ "Music, pure, natural, and harmonical, in the true and evident sense of the term, is the division of any key-note, or starting-point, into it's integral and ultimate parts, and the descending divisions will always answer to the ascending, having reference to the general whole. The essence and mystery in the development of harmonies consists in the fact that every key-note, or unit, is a nucleus including the past, the present, and the future, having in itself an inherent power, with a tendency to expand and contract. In the natural system, as each series rises, its contents expand and fall back to to the original limit from any point ascending or descending; we cannot perceive finality in any ultimate; every tone is related to higher and lower tones; and must be part of an organized whole." - p16 "Harmonies Of Tones And Colours Developed By Evolution" by F.J. Hughes - ______________________________________________________________________________ The image of the CIA foisted on the public is of a group organized to protect our country's interests. Instead, it is an organization of dangerous men trained in the black arts and deception to safeguard the interests of the powerful elite who have kept this planet in bondage for ages. Every individual who has shown unusual ability, including the psychic, has come under their surveilance. It is determined at headquarters in Washington, DC, whether or not it is in the best interests of the power structure for the person to be terminated. If so, a hit man is sent to arrange it. In this manner, many people over the years have met with untimely deaths. Many have wondered why the author has not met with a similar fate, since he has been stomping on the toes of the structure much harder than anyone else for many years. When the time is propitious for a great new idea to be introduced into the world, the power to enforce its introduction will accompany the one who is to introduce it. This power will far transcend that of any man-made organization that would oppose it. It is needless to state that many hit men have been expended in an effort to terminate the author. A former associate of the author with unusual abilities and a great mission to fulfill has had a similar run-in with the CIA. Every hit man sent to eliminate him has himself been terminated by a strange "accident". It is interesting to note that the CIA is now only a shadow of what it once was and all of its best hit men are long gone. Prior to Reagan's inauguration small newspaper articles kept hinting that the CIA was in big trouble. One of them mentioned that nearly 900 agents had been fired(?). The most recent of these articles stated that the morale and performance of the CIA had reached an all time low and "only drastic surgery would save the patient". It is also significant that such rumors and articles followed the run-ins the author and an associate had with the CIA men. A typical CIA agent is an individual with few scruples and he is also likely to be highly unstable emotionally. The above mentioned former associate of the author had an experience that confirmed this. An apartment just above one in which he was once living was occupied by a CIA agent sent there to monitor him. As has always been the case, the living quarters of everyone under their scrutiny is thoroughly bugged. For the more "important" cases there is a direct pipeline from this bugging to CIA headquarters. Unknown to the CIA at the time was that this associate was adept in astral projection. One evening the agent found out about this ability when he became aware of the fact that he was being monitored by the one he was supposed to be monitoring. His reaction was complete panic. He started to call headquarters but dropped the phone, rushed to the bathroom and began sobbing. The proceedings were automatically transmitted to headquarters. This individual had astrally visited headquarters, wherein it was decided by CIA officialdom that it was in the best interests that he be liquidated. Some prominent individuals in the public eye were there at the time. quote from "The Awesome Life Force" by Joseph H. Cater (p342-p343) _______________________________________________________________________________ Executive Order 12958 - http://www.spb.gov/html/12958.html Sec. 4.2. General Restrictions on Access. (b) Classified information shall remain under the control of the originating agency or its successor in function. An agency shall not disclose information originally classified by another agency without its authorization. An official or employee leaving agency service may not remove classified information from the agency's control. (e) Consistent with law, directives, and regulation, an agency head or senior agency official shall establish uniform procedures to ensure that automated information systems, including networks and telecommunications systems, that collect, create, communicate, compute, disseminate, process, or store classified information have controls that: (2) ensure the integrity of the information. ______________________________________________________________________________ Executive Order 12958 - http://www.spb.gov/html/12958.html Sec. 5.7. Sanctions. (a) If the Director of the Information Security Oversight Office finds that a violation of this order or its implementing directives may have occurred, the Director shall make a report to the head of the agency or to the senior agency official so that corrective steps, if appropriate, may be taken. (b) Officers and employees of the United States Government, and its contractors, licensees, certificate holders, and grantees shall be subject to appropriate sanctions if they knowingly, willfully, or negligently: (1) disclose to unauthorized persons information properly classified under this order or predecessor orders; (2) classify or continue the classification of information in violation of this order or any implementing directive; (3) create or continue a special access program contrary to the requirements of this order; ______________________________________________________________________________ Executive Order 12958 - http://www.spb.gov/html/12958.html Sec. 3.2. Authority for Declassification. (a) Information shall be declassified as soon as it no longer meets the standards for classification under this order. (b) It is presumed that information that continues to meet the classification requirements under this order requires continued protection. In some exceptional cases, however, the need to protect such information may be outweighed by the public interest in disclosure of the information, and in these cases the information should be declassified. When such questions arise, they shall be referred to the agency head or the senior agency official. That official will determine, as an exercise of discretion, whether the public interest in disclosure outweighs the damage to national security that might reasonably be expected from disclosure. _______________________________________________________________________________ >From "What's New?" at http://www.physicsweb.org Antarctic glaciers feel the heat [Friday July 24] The Pine Island Glacier in West Antarctica is shrinking at a startling rate according to satellite observations. And the "hinge-point" of the glacier is retreating at 1.2 km per year according to Eric Rignot of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California. Geophysicists believe that the glacier is theoretically unstable and that the retreat could become irreversible. Many believe that such an event would be strong evidence for climatic change. Rignot cautions that the retreat he has observed might be a short-lived phenomenon, but adds it could still have implications for the stability of ice-sheets along the entire Antarctic coastline (Science 281 549). Rignot used radar data taken between 1992 and 1996 by two European satellites, ERS-1 and ERS-2, to generate interference patterns that are sensitive to small vertical movements. These patterns provide information on the velocity of the ice - how fast it is creeping towards the bay - and the hinge point - the position on the glacier at which ice moves from resting on the bay bed to ice floating on the water. Recent measurements have suggested that the Pine Island glacier is melting at a much faster rate than other large ice shelves in the Antarctic. Researchers believed this was being caused by an influx of warm water from the Southern Pacific Ocean. Rignot's latest work concludes that 76 ± 2 km3 of ice is being discharged into the bay each year, while only 71 ± 7 km3 is replenished from the Antarctic interior - which indicates that the glacier is shrinking at a startling rate. If this data does herald the start of collapse for the Antarctic ice sheet, water levels could rise by more than 5 m within a couple of centuries. Global warming confirmed from space [Friday August 14] Differences in the temperature of the earth's atmosphere as measured by satellites and ground-based instruments have puzzled scientists for years, and caused some politicians to doubt the reality of global warming. Now, however, calculations by Frank Wentz and Matthias Schabel of Remote Sensing Systems in California have shown that small decays in the orbit of satellites may have caused the discrepancy (Nature 394 661). Previously satellite measurements have suggested that the atmosphere was cooling at 0.05 Kelvin per decade, while ground-based instruments showed an increase of 0.13 Kelvin per decade. However, as polar satellites orbit the Earth, they suffer atmospheric drag. The thickness and height of the Earth's atmosphere is dependent on the sun's solar activity. When solar activity is at a maximum, ultraviolet rays from the sun heat the upper atmosphere. This causes the atmosphere to expand outwards, which increases the drag experienced by satellites. Wentz and Schabel calculated that this caused the orbits of polar satellites operated by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) in the US to decay by 1.2 km per year over a 17 year period. They also discovered that the Microwave Sounding Unit (MSU) used to measure the troposphere temperature profile is very sensitive to height fluctuations. By developing a correction factor for the instrument, they were able to re-evaluate the satellite data. They found that the instrument now measured a temperature rise of 0.07 Kelvin per decade instead of the previously reported fall. This new figure is similar to results predicted by computer climate models and explains why the satellites had seen increased cooling in the troposphere during periods of increased solar activity in 1979-83 and 1989-92. Humans are the cause of climate change [Thursday November 26] The controversy over the relative contributions of greenhouse gas emissions and solar activity to global warming appears to have been resolved. Tom Wigley, Richard Smith and Benjamin Santer in the US contrasted global meteorological temperature data gathered over the past 115 years with results from two leading computer models. They found that the best fit to the data occurred when this century's 0.6 C global temperature rise is assumed to have been caused mainly by mankind's output of greenhouse gases (Science 282 1676). The team looked in particular for 'lag time' effects in the data. For example, the eruption of Mt Pinatubo in the Philippines in 1991 lowered the global temperature by 0.3 C in the following year as fine aerosols of volcanic ash and sulphuric acid caused a cooling effect. However, the team believes that volcanic eruptions have a short lived effect on the long-term temperature. They therefore looked at two possible variables that could adjust climate - greenhouse gases and changes in the sun's output. Wigley and colleagues ran the two independent computer models four times, each time with a different set of parameters. In the first data set, they created a world in which greenhouse gases remained constant over 100 years and changes in solar output do not affect the climate. In the second set they assumed that the Earth's climate can be affected by solar output - called solar forcing - but greenhouse gases remain constant. The third set had no solar output, but greenhouse gases rise over time. Finally the fourth set had a mixture of both solar forcing and rising levels of greenhouse gases. They first found that there was wide discrepancies between the output of both computer models and the experimental data in the first data set. This indicated that some mechanism was increasing the global temperature this century. Then they found that if solar heating was solely responsible for climate change, the Earth's climate would have to be six times more sensitive to solar heating than realistic estimates suggest. Wigley, Smith and Santer concluded that unlike a paper published in Physical Review Letters this week (see CERN plans global-warming experiment), the only model that matched both simulation and experimental data sets was the one containing a strong greenhouse gas effect and a small amount of solar heating. According to Wigley: "These results provide another important piece in the jigsaw puzzle of climate change, strengthening yet further our confidence that there has been a discernible human influence on climate. Furthermore, they provide additional evidence that the models used to make projections of future climate change are realistic." ________________________________________________________________________________ http://www.bitlaw.com/source/35usc/183.html U.S. Patent Act - Patent Laws Title 35 United States Code Section 183, Right to compensation An applicant, his successors, assigns, or legal representatives, whose patent is withheld as herein provided, shall have the right, beginning at the date the applicant is notified that, except for such order, his application is otherwise in condition for allowance, or February 1, 1952, whichever is later, and ending six years after a patent is issued thereon, to apply to the head of any department or agency who caused the order to be issued for compensation for the damage caused by the order of secrecy and/or for the use of the invention by the Government, resulting from his disclosure. The right to compensation for use shall begin on the date of the first use of the invention by the Government. The head of the department or agency is authorized, upon the presentation of a claim, to enter into an agreement with the applicant, his successors, assigns, or legal representatives, in full settlement for the damage and/or use. This settlement agreement shall be conclusive for all purposes not withstanding any other provision of law to the contrary. If full settlement of the claim cannot be effected, the head of the department or agency may award and pay to such applicant, his successors, assigns, or legal representatives, a sum not exceeding 75 per centum of the sum which the head of the department or agency considers just compensation for the damage and/or use. A claimant may bring suit against the United States in the United States Claims Court [United States Court of Federal Claims] or in the District Court of the United States for the district in which such claimant is a resident for an amount which when added to the award shall constitute just compensation for the damage and/or use of the invention by the Government. The owner of any patent issued upon an application that was subject to a secrecy order issued pursuant to section 181 of this title, who did not apply for compensation as above provided, shall have the right, after the date of issuance of such patent, to bring suit in the United States Claims Court [United States Court of Federal Claims] for just compensation for the damage caused by reason of the order of secrecy and/or use by the Government of the invention resulting from his disclosure. The right to compensation for use shall begin on the date of the first use of the invention by the Government. In a suit under the provisions of this section the United States may avail itself of all defenses it may plead in an action under section 1498 of title 28. This section shall not confer a right of action on anyone or his successors, assigns, or legal representatives who, while in the full-time employment or service of the United States, discovered, invented, or developed the invention on which the claim is based. ____________________________________________________________________________ ______ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 4 10:40:37 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA29407; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 10:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 10:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002d01be7ec0$9dda42a0$19684fc6 default> From: "mrand access" To: Subject: Re: IE No. 24 Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 10:28:40 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"kvYYG3.0.KB7.MDw1t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26748 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Gene, > >Congratulations on INFINITE ENERGY No. 24. Great cover. This issue is a >collector's item. It'll take me a while to read it, though. > >Tom Stolper > I especially like the "Chronology of Cold Fusion." My does Time fly by :-) Regards, Michael Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 4 11:18:14 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA20892; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 11:17:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 11:17:00 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 09:29:01 -0900 To: VCockeram aol.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: H2K: on suggestion for moving to another list Resent-Message-ID: <"N-DcJ1.0.M65.Sow1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26750 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:07 PM 4/4/99, VCockeram aol.com wrote: [snip] >Robin, A promotion/demotion? I never thought that at all. I have never >seen a post on Vortcor-l and I don't even know if I am subscribed. I really >enjoy reading all the posts here, on every possible subject. Yes, there is >noise too, but it's a rather a kind of happy noise ! >Unless there is a general consensus for such a move I will hang in here. My two cents: this is a good course you have chosen Vince, IMHO. The vortcor list was intended to be a low volume moderated list for serious level discussion of experimental data. The intent, if I recall correctly, was to entice some experienced pros not then on the list, like Edmund Storms, Dick Blue, etc., to debate experimental results, and to take some of the cross posting burden off Richard Murray. Since you are in an experiment development mode, there are not yet any hard solid results, the work seems very appropriate for vortex at this point. Though I haven't had time to comment much lately, the work you are doing is much appreciated, and some of the more interesing posting on vortex IMHO. Everyone who was on vortex at the time vortcor was created was subscribed, I believe. Scott Little is the designated Moderator, and some moderator software facilities were being implemented to help him, but we haven't to my knowledge yet heard here if these are in place. I just now posted a test message to vortcor, so if you get it you are subscribed. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 4 11:43:03 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA29064; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 11:42:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 11:42:07 -0700 Message-ID: <004a01be7eca$82bbec80$19684fc6 default> From: "mrand access" To: Subject: Re: H2K: on suggestion for moving to another list Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 11:39:40 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"-MGOH.0.q57.z9x1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26751 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] > I just now posted a >test message to vortcor, so if you get it you are subscribed. Thank you. Getting difficult to read 5 pt. font size on my aging 15" computer monitor :-) >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > Regards, Michael Randall PS, looking forward to hearing more on your experiments Vince! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 4 14:24:46 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA16184; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 14:23:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 14:23:44 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 17:36:06 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: on suggestion for moving to another list To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"bxsCX1.0.oy3.WXz1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26753 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/04/1999 11:16:59 Pacific Daylight Time, hheffner mtaonline.net writes: > Everyone who was on vortex at the time vortcor was created was subscribed, > I believe. Scott Little is the designated Moderator, and some moderator > software facilities were being implemented to help him, but we haven't to > my knowledge yet heard here if these are in place. I just now posted a > test message to vortcor, so if you get it you are subscribed. > Regards, > Horace Heffner Yes Horace, the test message did flow into my in-box. Thanks. I will remain on Vortex-L. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 4 14:26:41 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA14653; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 14:23:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 14:23:03 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <9487b604.24393548 aol.com> Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 17:36:08 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: Joule heater testing To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"bHD-R1.0.ga3.tWz1t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26752 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/04/1999 11:42:43 Pacific Daylight Time, mrand iols.net writes: Michael, you should be able to set your system to display received text in just about any font size you want. In Win95 (what I run) go to Start / Settings / Control Panel / Monitor / Appearance and try changing settings there. I set mine to 10 point as my old 12 inch monitor and old eyes couldn't do it with the default settings. > Regards, Michael Randall > PS, looking forward to hearing more on your experiments Vince! OK. Running power tests today using a joule heater ( a coil of ss wire constructed to fit into the quartz tube ) to establish a baseline for power input to degrees centigrade output. The joule heater resistance is 1.0 ohms. I was curious if the wattmeter would operate at the really low voltages necessary ( ~6 to 10 volts). It did just fine. I double checked the wattmeter with a digital ammeter (Radio Shack cat # 22-168A and a Fluke 8060A/AA voltmeter. Results so far: Input voltage--------9.0 VAC +/- 1.5% Input amperes-----6.70 +/- 3.5 % V * I watts---------60.30 watts +/- 5% ? kWh meter---60.03 sec rotation = 59.97 watts (no specs but I may ask G.E., however, tests run by Scott with the Clarke-Hess power analyzer show these meters are pretty much on the money) The joule heater consists of a 12 turn coil of .025 inch stainless steel wire (no, I don't know what type of ss wire, other than it is nonmagnetic) approx. 1 inch in length. Yes, this is an inductive load but I think, not much at 60 Hz. Conclusion so far: The power consumed by the heater coil as measured by the two digital meters and the wattmeter agree close enough for me. Next to do: Strap the thermocouple onto the quartz tube and run a series of power tests showing heat output degrees per input watts. Another note on the high voltage transformer. Primary resistance is 2.31 ohms Secondary resistance is 17,830 ohms This is DC resistance measures with the Fluke meter. Air temperature 58 deg F Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 4 20:32:26 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA07001; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 20:30:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 20:30:33 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990404210144.008c5100 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 21:01:44 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: H2K: Joule heater testing In-Reply-To: <9487b604.24393548 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"YVGEf3.0.7j1.Pv22t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26754 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:36 PM 4/4/99 EDT, VCockeram aol.com wrote: > The joule heater consists of a 12 turn coil of .025 inch stainless steel > wire (no, I don't know what type of ss wire, other than it is nonmagnetic) > approx. 1 inch in length. Yes, this is an inductive load but I think, > not much at 60 Hz. That coil is maybe 2 microhenries. At 60 Hz, the inductive reactance will be only 7E-4 ohms, which is a mere 0.06% of the coil's 1.3 ohm resistance. You can ignore that completely. Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 4 20:34:07 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA07015; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 20:30:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 20:30:34 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990404223326.008d6b50 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 22:33:26 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Cold fusion is 100% real Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8tRSJ2.0.Vj1.Pv22t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26755 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: at least Russ George thinks so.... http://sightings.com/ufo3/coldf.htm Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 4 23:32:34 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA22817; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 23:29:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 23:29:32 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <84860c4a.2439b8c6 aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 02:57:10 EDT Subject: Re: H2 w/K glow discharge To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: Verdian aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"2Jmoz2.0.Ra5.BX52t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26756 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/02/1999 07:27:43 Pacific Standard Time, fstenger interlaced.net writes: > Let's see, if your xfmr limits at 23 mA, it should put around > (0.023)^2 * 20,000 ohms = 10.58 watts into a 20K resistor at a drop > of 0.023 * 20,000 = 460 volts. You could make up the 10 watts needed > with a series string of "normal" resistors. AT NO TIME WOULD THE > SECONDARY BE OPEN ON THIS TEST! > Good luck! > Frank Stenger Ok Frank, you have convinced me to give it a try. I did purchase an extended warrenty with this nice Radio Shack meter. One thing though, I'm not sure loading the secondary so hard would be a valid test. Comments? Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 4 23:53:16 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA27393; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 23:50:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 23:50:17 -0700 From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Inadvertant possible CF explanation in New Scientist? Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 06:49:38 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <37085ae3.5090060 mail-hub> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA27369 Resent-Message-ID: <"04dah1.0.xh6.eq52t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26757 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In NS No2179 (27 Mar. 1999) on page 38 in the article "pump up the volume", the following can be found: "To create phonons rather than photons, de Wijn switches on a powerful magnetic field that nudges the electrons in the chromium ions into slightly different energy levels. With the field switched on, the electrons absorb light but lose their energy in small steps rather than a single leap. These steps are too small to give a photon, but just enough to create vibrations in the crystal lattice-making phonons rather than photons." Now if this same effect were applied to an excited nucleus rather than excited electrons, perhaps the result would be phonons iso gamma rays. Particular chemical environments may just ensure the right magnetic field is available at the nuclear level. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 5 00:04:28 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA29959; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:03:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:03:00 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 03:02:14 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: Joule heater testing To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: Verdian aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"iH9dv3.0.zJ7.a062t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26758 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Here are the results of Sundays joule heater testing. T = degrees C +/- .1 C W = Watts as measured on the Westinghouse Type CS watt-hour meter V = heater voltage First test series with H2 at 1 atmosphere (zero on the vacuum gauge) T=854.5 W=59.87 V=8.98 T=795 W=48.92 V=8.16 T=701.1 W=35.15 V=7.0 T=612.1 W=25.43 V=5.92 T=514.7 W=17.67 V=4.91 Second test series at best vacuum I can pull (27.2 in Hg on the gauge) (the pump specs at, I think, 25 microns) T=464.3 W=17.22 V=5.0 T=541.8 W=26.09 V=5.96 T=663.0 W=36.11 V=6.96 When I increased the voltage to the next step, ~8 volts, the heater melted. H2 gas, it seems, is very good at conducting heat away from the heater coil, so when running in vacuo, it got a bit warm. Tomorrow, I'm going hunting for some nichrome wire. Downer: Last years running with the DC supply got 598.9 deg C with 51 watts input measured with meters,voltage dividers on the HV side of the power supply. This may be comparing apples to oranges with the different setup now. We shall see. Will also be running Frank Stengers HV load tests and hope I don't bust my nice new meter. Love that extended warranty Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 5 00:09:04 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA31259; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:08:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:08:18 -0700 From: FJsparber aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 03:29:49 EDT Subject: Re: Chasing Light Leptons witha a Magnetic Separator To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: FJsparber aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: FJsparber aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"AkvmV.0.Le7.Y562t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26759 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Number crunching using 1.0 Kev potential to accelerate Electrons/LLs from a H2/D2-Potassium discharge through a Mag Field: Mrel = Mo[(E'/0.5 +1)] Mo = 0.5 ev = 0.5/c^2 = 8.88E-37 Kg q = Mrel*c/R*B or R = Mrel*c/q*B Radius (meters) B (Tesla) q (Coulombs) 0.1 0.01 5.33E-22 0.1 0.10 5.33E-23 0.2 0.01 2.66E-22 0.2 0.10 2.66E-23 3.33E-4 0.01 1.6E-19 3.33E-5 0.10 1.6E-19 Seems to be a lot simpler than using Electrostatic Separation. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 5 04:51:20 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA20654; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 04:49:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 04:49:13 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990405074757.00b22370 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 07:47:57 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Cold fusion is 100% real In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990404223326.008d6b50 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"PCHBG.0.e25.vCA2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26760 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:33 PM 4/4/99 -0500, Scott Little wrote: >at least Russ George thinks so.... > >http://sightings.com/ufo3/coldf.htm > >Scott Actually, Scott, quite a few scientists and engineers thinks so as well. More on cold fusion at: http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrefs.html and http://kemi.aau.dk/~db/fusion and http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_301000/301893.stm Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 5 06:23:11 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA08753; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 06:21:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 06:21:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3708B939.39D9 interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 09:23:05 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2 w/K glow discharge References: <84860c4a.2439b8c6 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uGvLZ3.0.h82.QZB2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26761 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram aol.com wrote: > (snip) > One thing though, I'm not sure loading the secondary so hard would be a valid > test. Comments? When I tested the neon xmfr, Vince, I started with a 1 ohm load as a shunt. The voltage drop gave me the short-circuit current. If I had a wattmeter like you, I could have measured the short-circuit losses at this condition. Then, I started adding load resistance until I got up to my 636 volts at 34.25 K ohms. My meter limits at 750 volts AC, so I stopped here. Knowing each resistor, and the voltage drop, you know the current. With the wattmeter on the primary, you can then plot the xfmr efficiency as the load voltage goes up to whatever maximum load voltage you can measure. The test will mean the most when you get as close to the actual gas tube drop as you can. Of course, my assumption was that the secondary waveforms, using a fixed load resistor, were sinusoidal and so yielded the correct secondary power just by the secondary V x I product. The bottom line - it looks like this class of xfmr runs just fine from zero percent efficiency (short circuit) up to whatever (90% + ??) when the load voltage is high. It just seems like a good idea to know roughly where you will be operating. As Scott has shown, the wattmeter looks great for the INPUT, so the secondary power is all that remains in question. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 5 07:23:10 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA24946; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 07:22:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 07:22:00 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <34720982.243a2611 aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 10:43:29 EDT Subject: Re: Randell Mills' New Book To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Reply-To: Tstolper aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA24916 Resent-Message-ID: <"N9vdQ3.0.b56.8SC2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26762 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell notes that the new (January 1999) edition of Randell Mills' book has important new material. Mills' critics have long faulted him for not dealing with Bell's Theorem and the Aspect experiments on nonlocality, and in this edition, Mills does deal with them. It seems to me that the section (pp. 5-14) in the Introduction, the section about the relationship of Mills' theory to that of Bohr and Schrödinger, is also an important addition. (So are many other things but it'll probably take me all year to deal with them even superficially.) Mike, congratulations on your piece in INFINITE ENERGY No. 24. I liked the schematic description of hydrino formation. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 5 07:37:51 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA29921; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 07:36:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 07:36:30 -0700 Sender: jack pop.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <3708814E.586A323C mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 09:24:30 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Randell Mills' New Book References: <34720982.243a2611 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IQ_Ho1.0.RJ7.kfC2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26763 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tstolper aol.com wrote: Mike Carrell notes that the new (January 1999) edition of Randell Mills' book has important new material. ... Mike, congratulations on your piece in INFINITE ENERGY No. 24. ... Tom Stolper Hi Tom and Mike, Please tell me how to order this book. Thanks, Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 5 09:05:02 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA30479; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 08:59:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 08:59:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3708FA94.2DF4 bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 11:01:56 -0700 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion is 100% real References: <3.0.5.32.19990404223326.008d6b50 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Q8-Qc.0.5S7.LtD2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26764 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > at least Russ George thinks so.... > > http://sightings.com/ufo3/coldf.htm > > Scott You read Sightings??? :-) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 5 09:07:53 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA32154; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 09:02:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 09:02:50 -0700 Message-ID: <3708DE34.7200BF2 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 10:00:52 -0600 From: "Richard T. Murray" Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: letters csicop.org, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, edmeasure@aol.colm, hameroff u.arizona.edu, vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Murray: Chouinard: temperature PK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"k1Z492.0.Ks7.gwD2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26765 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: April 5, 1999 Hello, Ingo Swann and Gertrude Schmeidler reported a successful temperature PK experiment about 1971. Scott Little and Hal Puthoff have a lab in Austin that could readily replicate Chouinard's experiment. Hal Puthoff reported a dramatic magnetometer experiment with Swann about 1972. You could also set it up as an automatic experiment on the Web, so anyone could log in and try to produce nonrandom effects, with the data being continuously recorded and displayed, as in Walker's Retroactive PK site. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) Rich Murray Room For All 1943 Otowi Drive Santa Fe, NM 87505 505-986-9103 505-920-6130 cellular VoiceStream rmforall earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~rmforall >From Quantum-Mind discussion group: Subject: [q-mind] Mentally Induced Temperature Fluctuations - Edmond Chouinard Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 07:28:59 -0700 From: Stuart Hameroff >From Edmond Chouinard 4-4-99 re: 23 March 99 Quantum Mind List Article from Fred Thaheld [Fred Thaheld, previously] Subject: Can one measure willful intent? Addendum In a previous posting to Q-Mind a proposal was made to utilize either superconductors or Superconducting QUantum Interference Devices (SQUIDS), and subjecting them to willful intent to determine if, over a varying period of time, one could either: Raise the temperature, get a current circulating or stopped without the intervention of a magnetic field, raise or lower the resistivity or reduce or increase the current. [Edmond Chouinard] I have done and am doing such temperature measurements, though not with superconductors, magnetic devices, or through phase changes. Rather through laser micro-metrology techniques, looking directly at the level of random fluctuations in movement of objects, flowers, and through looking directly at the surface temperatures of objects, again flowers, with differential sets of thermopiles. I have found repeatable correlations in the level of random dimensional fluctuations (in the order of parts of a micron) and in the fluctuations of temperature (in the order of hundredths of a degree F). This occurs as a function changing mental state, from highly focussed concentration on the object to a spread-out transcendental state of mind. This information derives, again and again, from hundreds of experimental runs where overall average signal to noise ratios exceed the value of 2. For this reason, I am calling the whole experimental setup a "Non-Local Mind Fluctuation Sensor," and I expect that S/N Ratios will only continue be become better. A lot of fascinating questions are arising from the data relative to "coupling" mechanisms between the mind and the target (flowers) and with the local surrounding environment (air) around the targets; local vs non-local issues. Edmond Chouinard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 5 09:31:31 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA10441; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 09:27:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 09:27:48 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 07:39:51 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Cold fusion is 100% real Resent-Message-ID: <"kF13E1.0.3Z2.4IE2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26766 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:33 PM 4/4/99, Scott Little wrote: >at least Russ George thinks so.... > >http://sightings.com/ufo3/coldf.htm Gee, to read the interview with SI you would think Russ George invented cold fusion all by himself! One very interesting part of the interview, quoted below, seems to refer to a deuterium version of Les Case's approach: " RG: In my current experiments, I am using a regular gas cylinder filled with hydrogen gas and some active materials, and it just heats up. The more volume you use, the hotter it gets. This reaction will keep going indefinitely. The cylinder is typical of any used for compressed gas, such as a tank used at an amusement park for filling balloons with helium. The only difference is that this cylinder will maintain a temperature of about 250C or 400F almost for ever. "SI: The materials will not be used up, nor are they too expensive?" "RG: No. A fusion reaction can produce heat for centuries without "using up" the materials. The reaction uses 'heavy hydrogen' which, like hydrogen, is an abundant element in the universe. This reaction also works with other materials " some just work better than others " so no-one will be able to monopolize the materials to make exclusive profits." I wonder if the phrase "more volume you use, the hotter it gets" was just a miscommunication typical of live interviews. Maybe he meant to say the energy produced is in proportion to the volume of the device? While it is true that for a fixed geometry and given output of energy per unit volume that the "more volume you use, the hotter it gets" is true due to the insulating quality of a lower surface area to volume ratio, that problem is a *disadvantage* to be managed in order to avoid overheating the catalyst, etc. Clearly the geometry should be manageable so that volume can be increased indefinitely while maintaining a fixed operating temperature range, so this is not meant by me to imply a problem, only a curious and interesting choice of words. In any event, the "250C or 400F" temperature Russ George says he has achieved that can be maintained "almost for ever" is incredibly impressive! Well, Scott, if it doesn't work small just make it bigger! (Where have I heard this before?) It sounds like all you need is fifty pounds of catalyst, a steel tank, and some deuterium gas. Could it be true the bigger and taller the tank the bigger the convection cell weather system you develop in the tank? Any bets on the pressure of the tank being over the 400F boiling point? Let's see, 400 deg. F corresponds to 247.25 PSIA for light water, so maybe the tank is operating around or over 300 PSIG? Maybe Russ or Les Case will provide some replication info? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 5 09:31:56 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA12265; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 09:29:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 09:29:54 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <23293842.243a3d6e aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 12:23:10 EDT Subject: Re: H2 w/K glow discharge To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"LojC8.0.Z_2.2KE2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26767 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/05/1999 06:22:05 Pacific Daylight Time, fstenger interlaced.net writes: > The bottom line - it looks like this class of xfmr runs just fine from > zero percent efficiency (short circuit) up to whatever (90% + ??) when > the load voltage is high. It just seems like a good idea to know > roughly where you will be operating. As Scott has shown, the wattmeter > looks great for the INPUT, so the secondary power is all that remains > in question. > Frank Stenger > Additionaly, I will hang a scope on the load resistor setup just for grins. Only wish my good camera wasn't trash so I could snap some pics. One thing though, the Radio Shack meter has a serial PC interface and came with software. I installed the software and when I launch it, it brings up a display that looks like an oscilliscope screen. I have to do some reading up on this to see exactly what it does. Much Thanks. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 5 14:23:02 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA23051; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:21:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:21:25 -0700 Message-ID: <001401be7faa$0b2514e0$bb4bccd1 default> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Randell Mills' New Book Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:48:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"-X-Hy2.0.wd5.LbI2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26768 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vo I understand Mills' book is available through Amazon.com. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 5 14:52:19 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA06089; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:49:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:49:10 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990405164958.00affd84 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 16:49:58 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Cold fusion is 100% real In-Reply-To: <3708FA94.2DF4 bellsouth.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19990404223326.008d6b50 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"vEuSE3.0.lU1.J_I2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26769 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:01 4/5/99 -0700, Terry Blanton wrote: >Scott Little wrote: >> >> at least Russ George thinks so.... >> >> http://sightings.com/ufo3/coldf.htm >> >> Scott > >You read Sightings??? :-) Ha! No, I don't. Of course I would be intensely interested if concrete proof of any such stuff ever emerged but I have no patience and little interest in the massive rumor mill that surrounds such subjects. A friend of mine alerted me to George's article. Should we attach any significance to the fact that the article appeared in Sightings?... Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 5 16:10:15 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA13607; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 16:08:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 16:08:29 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990405190708.00b181c0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 19:07:08 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Cold fusion is 100% real In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990405164958.00affd84 mail.eden.com> References: <3708FA94.2DF4 bellsouth.net> <3.0.5.32.19990404223326.008d6b50 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"BcBZO2.0.XK3.j9K2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26770 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:49 PM 4/5/99 -0500, Scott Little wrote: >At 11:01 4/5/99 -0700, Terry Blanton wrote: >>You read Sightings??? :-) > >Ha! No, I don't. Of course I would be intensely interested if concrete >proof of any such stuff ever emerged but I have no patience and little >interest in the massive rumor mill that surrounds such subjects. A friend >of mine alerted me to George's article. > >Should we attach any significance to the fact that the article appeared in >Sightings?... What are the other articles, Scott? And can't you folks use your in-house 'remote viewing' to tell us which ones are ok and which are bogus? Thanks in advance. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 5 16:37:20 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA22180; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 16:35:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 16:35:27 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990405193157.0069bcd4 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 19:31:57 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Blue: Check bla, bla, bla Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"yQxOs3.0.UQ5.-YK2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26771 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Murray quotes Richard Blue: Jed, in discussing the technique employed for sampling gas evolved during electrolysis, suggests that the flow of gas through the sampling bottle is sufficient to preclude any backstreaming of helium from the atmosphere into the sample volume. The bubbler prevents backstreaming, as anyone who has glanced at the papers would know. Furthermore, as I stated and as every paper says, significant helium is always correlated with excess heat, and it never appears when there is no excess heat. (This has nothing to do with the working temperature of the cell, because some blank runs and runs without excess heat are hotter than the excess heat runs.) The correlation between heat and helium is perfect with Miles and nearly perfect with McKubre. If the helium is backstreaming selectively it must be intelligent helium, kind of like Beneviste's water with memory. Perhaps this also explains why the helium crowds into Case cells at twice atmospheric concentration. Dick Blue will believe in any damn thing, even water memory or smart helium, if it will allow him to deny reality. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 5 19:13:39 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA09109; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:08:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:08:30 -0700 From: FJsparber aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 22:05:59 EDT Subject: Fwd: Check out Conventional Air-Launched Cruise Missile (CALCM) To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_f5921bdf.243ac607_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: FJsparber aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"JIWum1.0.AE2.UoM2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26772 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_f5921bdf.243ac607_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_f5921bdf.243ac607_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: FJsparber aol.com From: FJsparber aol.com Full-name: FJsparber Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 22:01:07 EDT Subject: Check out Conventional Air-Launched Cruise Missile (CALCM) To: FJsparber aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: FJsparber aol.com Click here: Conventional Air-Launched Cruise Missile (CALCM) --part1_f5921bdf.243ac607_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 5 19:14:15 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA10866; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:10:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:10:34 -0700 Message-ID: <37098A6E.C8A bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 21:15:42 -0700 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold fusion is 100% real References: <3.0.5.32.19990404223326.008d6b50 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990405164958.00affd84@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"a15sh3.0.if2.PqM2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26773 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > At 11:01 4/5/99 -0700, Terry Blanton wrote: > >Scott Little wrote: > >> > >> at least Russ George thinks so.... > >> > >> http://sightings.com/ufo3/coldf.htm > >> > >> Scott > > > >You read Sightings??? :-) > > Ha! No, I don't. Of course I would be intensely interested if concrete > proof of any such stuff ever emerged but I have no patience and little > interest in the massive rumor mill that surrounds such subjects. A friend > of mine alerted me to George's article. > > Should we attach any significance to the fact that the article appeared in > Sightings?... > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) No more significance than Dr. Steven Greer (http://www.cseti.com/) is speaking at COFE. We search through tons of soil seeking elusive diamonds. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 00:35:16 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA24362; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 00:34:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 00:34:26 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <838b975c.243b1977 aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 04:01:59 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: Transformer Load Tests To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: Verdian aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"tZ87h3.0.Xy5.2aR2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26774 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, I have run some HV transformer load tests per suggestion of Frank Stenger. I measured primary input voltage, amperes and watts, secondary voltage and amperes using six different resistor loads. Meter specifications AC Volts +/- 1.2 % AC Amps +/- 2.3 % Watts---not sure. Don't have specs for the Westinghouse Type CS watt-hour meter. Resistors were new 5% 25 watt units. Line input voltage was 122.0 VAC. Primary DC resistance is 2.3 ohms. Secondary DC resistance is 17,970 ohms. With the secondary open (unloaded) the primary current draw was 0.420 amp at 122.0 VAC input. Sorry, I did not use the wattmeter for the unloaded test. Should I have? ============================================== LOAD---PRI AMPS---WATTS---SEC VOLTS---SEC AMPS 1.2ohm--2.03----------33.49------------24.83------------0.0206 5K--------2.03----------34.95----------103.9--------------0.0208 10K--------2.03----------37.09----------204.0--------------0.0205 15K--------2.02----------39.01----------308.0--------------0.0207 20K--------2.02----------41.39----------408.0--------------0.0205 27K--------2.01----------44.24----------552.0--------------0.0205 32K--------2.00----------46.05----------650.0--------------0.0203 Was it Scott that said this transformer is designed as a constant current supply? Sure looks like it to me. I would like to have continued with higher resistance's, but 750 VAC is meter limit and so without generating more questions that voltage dividers would ask, will have to end it with the 32 Kohm resistor load. The transformer nameplate says primary is 250 VA which is close to what I measured, 247.66 VA I borrowed a dual trace scope and hooked it up differentially, across the 5K resistor, and it "looked" like a pretty nice sine wave to me. Then I hooked up the scope to display a lissajou (sp?) figure and got a circle with small bumps. A pure sine wave will display a perfect circle, correct? This wasn't a perfect circle but pretty darn close. Now with all this data plus some of Frank's number crunching, maybe we can come up with some idea of the power that will be going into the arc. I hope so. Another note, I found some nichrome wire in an old hair dryer. The wire was coiled just about perfect size to fit the tube too. Constructed another tube with joule heater and will run some tests tomorrow. Thinking of running at a partial fill pressure at the pressure I ran last year that produced the best heat output. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 00:41:37 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA26701; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 00:38:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 00:38:35 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <651e63b7.243b1a55 aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 04:05:41 EDT Subject: H2K: Joule Heater Testing To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"-h3Dk2.0.7X6.xdR2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26775 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/05/1999 18:21:32 Pacific Daylight Time, schaffermj yahoo.com writes: > VCockeram aol.com wrote: > > >Here are the results of Sundays joule heater testing. > > > > T = degrees C +/- .1 C > > W = Watts as measured on the Westinghouse Type CS watt-hour meter > > V = heater voltage > > > >First test series with H2 at 1 atmosphere (zero on the vacuum gauge) > > T=854.5 > > W=59.87 > > V=8.98 > [snip rest of data] > > Note that the temperature varies nonlinearly with heater power. True, as there is no insulation of any kind around the tube other than a 4 x 4 x 6 inch plexiglass shield. > The temperature at a given heater power (if you plot out the two curves) also > depends on gas pressure. (Yes, H2 has the highest thermal conductivity of > any gas). And, although he has not posted any data on it yet, the thermal > conductivity also depends on the composition of the gas. For this series of tests, just H2 at 1 atm fill and the second at a 25 micron vacuum. For the arc runs, I would be hard put other than a guess as to what the gas composition would be. ( H2, K vapor, W and ?? ) > And convection depends on mass density and thermal expansion. > Vince's system has a complicated behavior that precludes calorimetry. (Just > an advance warning.) > I will continue to try to help where I can. > === > Michael J. Schaffer Thanks for the input Michael. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 00:45:55 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA29643; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 00:45:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 00:45:13 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <3b75e48e.243b1c0d aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 04:13:01 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: Joule heater testing To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"xMP3z2.0.5F7.9kR2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26776 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/06/1999 00:34:58 Pacific Daylight Time, VCockeram aol.com writes: > I measured primary input voltage, amperes and watts, > secondary voltage and amperes using six different resistor loads. That should read......seven different resistor loads. Vince From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 04:39:51 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA23368; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 04:39:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 04:39:00 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <17ea0afd.243b4c22 aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 07:38:10 EDT Subject: Re: Suborbital Electron Theory and CF To: vortex-L eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Reply-To: Tstolper aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"bwRqP3.0.2j5.K9V2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26779 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In message Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 15:12:25 -0500, Drew Meulenberg wrote: "All bound electrons radiate (according to EM theory)." But experiment shows that they don't radiate, unless excited. That's why Mills developed his new model of the bound electron. Drew continued: "Only those that are able to fall to lower orbitals can "emit" a photon. If the inner orbitals are filled, the outer electrons "absorb" as much energy (from the radiated near-fields of the inner electrons) as they radiate. Therefore, they continue to radiate at the same frequency and the superposition of radiated energy cancels out all far-fields from the electron (those beyond some finite distance from the atom)." Where does the energy for this prodigious stream of radiation come from? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 04:39:52 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA23000; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 04:38:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 04:38:50 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <712c6db8.243b4c1f aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 07:38:07 EDT Subject: Re: Randell Mills' New Book To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Reply-To: Tstolper aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"9Ea_Z.0.8d5.A9V2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26778 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jack, There's an order form for Randell Mills' new book on the website of his company: www.blacklightpower.com The new book is also available from Amazon, but it's more expensive there. And I had to look there by the key words of the title. When I did the search using exact name of author, an older, out-of-print edition came up. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 04:41:03 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA22512; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 04:38:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 04:38:21 -0700 From: FJsparber aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 07:37:31 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: Transformer Load Tests To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: FJsparber aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"yryvN2.0.gV5.j8V2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26777 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nice Going, Vince! I think a trip to the hardware store to pick up a fluorescent light-bulb for a preliminary run would be a good bet. The 40 watt 4 footer or the 18" kitchen/bath units would probably be okay. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 05:36:10 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA06432; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 05:33:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 05:33:46 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <323874de.243b58ef aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 08:32:47 EDT Subject: H2K: Pro/Am To: vortex-L eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Reply-To: Tstolper aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"lj7yn1.0.Qa1.fyV2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26780 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince, It seems to me that your status as an advanced amateur rather than as a full-time pro employed by a university or research institute just makes the positive results that you've achieved all the more significant, because you've shown that things have progressed to the point at which an advanced amateur can get positive results. I was glad to read that you'll be staying on Vortex-L. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 08:11:53 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA14860; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 08:05:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 08:05:15 -0700 Message-ID: <370A229E.23AD interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 11:05:02 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: VCockeram aol.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: Transformer Load Tests References: <838b975c.243b1977 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LIKbG.0.6e3.gAY2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26781 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram aol.com wrote: > > > I have run some HV transformer load tests per suggestion > Primary DC resistance is 2.3 ohms. > Secondary DC resistance is 17,970 ohms. > With the secondary open (unloaded) the primary > current draw was 0.420 amp at 122.0 VAC input. Sorry, > I did not use the wattmeter for the unloaded test. Should I have? Not critical, Vince. This would have given us the "magnitization loss" for the transformer, i.e., how much power is lost in just setting up the no-load flux level in the core. We can still estimate the load efficiencies. > > ============================================== > LOAD---PRI AMPS---WATTS---SEC VOLTS---SEC AMPS > > 1.2ohm--2.03----------33.49------------24.83------------0.0206 > 5K--------2.03----------34.95----------103.9--------------0.0208 > 10K--------2.03----------37.09----------204.0--------------0.0205 > 15K--------2.02----------39.01----------308.0--------------0.0207 > 20K--------2.02----------41.39----------408.0--------------0.0205 > 27K--------2.01----------44.24----------552.0--------------0.0205 > 32K--------2.00----------46.05----------650.0--------------0.0203 > OK, Using these above numbers, we can list the following interesting results: Load Input Output Output Efficiency Res. Power Power Volts (Overall) watts watts VAC percent 1.2 Ohm 33.49 ~zero 0.0247 zero (short circuit test) 5K 34.95 2.16 103.9 6.18 10K 37.09 4.18 204 11.27 15K 39.01 6.38 308 16.34 20K 41.39 8.36 408 20.21 27K 44.24 11.32 552 25.58 32K 46.05 13.19 650 28.65 where I assumed sinusoidal secondary waveforms and, Vince, I changed your first secondary voltage to 0.0247 VAC to fit the 1.2 ohm load and the 0.0206 amp current - is this right? Anyway, we note the efficiency is improving fast with output voltage, but we don't know what it will be with the "reactor tube" load. It seems reasonable that the working efficiency may be less than 50 percent, but that's only a guess. With a gas tube load, I would expect the waveforms to be non-sinusoidal but that too is only a guess. If you had the type of transformer with one side of the secondary grounded (or floating so you could ground one side), you could use a near-ground current shunt and a voltage divider to get a good, safe, output current and voltage signal. As someone mentioned a while back, I see there are analog multiplier chips available for less than $20 with which you could probably make a "poor man's" version of Scott's Clark - Hess (sp) wattmeter. But, that's another electronic hobby project! :-) Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 09:14:46 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA04322; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:13:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:13:13 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <462ff834.243b8977 aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:59:51 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: Transformer Load Tests To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"0Y-d81.0.N31.PAZ2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26782 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/06/1999 08:05:11 Pacific Daylight Time, fstenger interlaced.net writes: > where I assumed sinusoidal secondary waveforms and, Vince, I changed > your first secondary voltage to 0.0247 VAC to fit the 1.2 ohm load and > the 0.0206 amp current - is this right? Probably, it was late, I was tired. I will revisit that data point to be sure. It's easy now that I have attached banana jack/binding post connectors to the HV transformer. Additionally, I did post, back on April 1st, readings taken with the transformer secondary open. In amps = 0.42, wattmeter = 12.32, volts = 122.0 I also like Frederick's suggestion re: a fluorescent lamp load. > Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 10:17:23 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA25323; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:13:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:13:16 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990406171858.01591d3c popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 13:18:58 -0400 To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: From Russia with Love Resent-Message-ID: <"SSH2i2.0.bB6.i2a2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26783 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good paper. I knew about dowsing but could not appreciate its' significance to a better understanding of things. Thanks. At 07:33 AM 4/4/99 -0800, you wrote: >Archaeology - New Energy > >A famous skeptic, James Randi, tested eleven well-known dowsers in >Australia in 1980. Under the ground there were ten water pipes and at >any time during the test, water could randomly flow through one of them. >Although the dowsers had confidently predicted a high rate of success, >the actual results were surprisingly low and it may well have been a coincidence. I surmise that, James Randi brings such a huge amount of negative black energy blobs (falun gong web search) attached to his EV, his presence (attitude & behavior) adversely affects the lifeforce of the test subjects thereby affecting dowsing results negatively. Falun Gong teaches that good deeds will add white positive energy to one's EV. Accordingly bad deeds will earn one a corresponding black blob. Is it possible to detect differences in energy types with a dowsing rod? >The failure of the Australian test very likely stems from incorrect >evaluation of reactions. Were they not experienced dowsers? >During our research we have determined that >dowsing-rod reactions show a certain pattern, which must be respected in >order to mark exactly the correct place searched. In an example similar >to the Australian experiment I will try to acquaint you with new >findings when working with a dowsing-rod. >The test area may be much simpler, it is enough to place one plastic >tube under the ground and connect it to a water faucet. Dowsers will >approach the buried tube in a perpendicular direction from a distance of >at least fifty meters from the test area and they will stop in the same >distance behind the test area. We will use metal dowsing-rods to >simulate better the primeval ages, i.e. copper dowsing-rods. Water is >flowing in the test tube and the dowser slowly walks along the route and >marks all dowsing-rod reactions by hammering sticks in the ground. At >first sight of approximately 15 sticks it is evident that distance >between them are roughly the same with an exception - in the middle of >the row there is a gap approximately four times wider. Any suggestions on proper gauge of copper wire? Idea - use Phi for the ratio of the dowsing rod leg lengths (assuming L shaped rod)? Length of rod leg - side that points foward - based on rEP? Does the dowsing rod design have any effect on sensitivity? >The dowsing-rod has shown one of its secrets, we have witnessed >the dowsing-rod pattern code. The tube looked for is located in the >middle of the great gap in a place where the dowsing-rod showed no >reaction. We will now repeat the experiment in the same way, we will >just increase the water flow rate in the tube and use sticks of >different color for the second row. The result is the same, the tube >looked for is in the middle of the great gap, which evidently increased >in width, as did the other gaps. If we repeat the experiment with >different water flow rates, will determine direct proportion between the >volume of flowing water and the gaps. The same result can also be >reached with a small natural stream. For bigger water flows the results >are the same, however, too wide gaps between them make it difficult to >find orientation among them. This maybe how James Randi messed with the above mentioned test? Why didn't Mr. Randi use just one buried waterpipe. It appears that Mr. Randi knows how to create conditions to make dowsing difficult. >In the same way as with the menhir we can identify energy of every >matter - i.e. even of man. This probably concerns another >secret of the dowsing-rod - why it reacts with certain people >only. If we measure the energy of more people, we will find out that >not all of them are equal in terms of energy. The energy space radius >for humans ranges from 20 to 60 cm. We have experienced that the >structure of energy spaces is very different, therefore, it may be >assumed that the dowsing-rod only reacts with people who have a >suitable combination of the energy space with its structure. > >If you gain enough experience with the dowsing-rod, then for small >energy objects it will be sufficient to evaluate roughly only the radius >of the energy space, we will gain the necessary information much faster. > >However, it must be born in mind that the energy space is >three-dimensional. Merging two or more energy spaces into one common >energy space equals the sum of their volumes. Therefore, we will assume >that for two people with the same energy space radius of 30 cm, their >common energy space radius will be much smaller than 60 cm. From now on >we will mark energy space radius as rEP, energy space as EP and energy >layers as EV. > >Two people standing next to each other in a distance greater than the >sum of their rEP represent two separate energy objects and have >their separate EP and EV. If they come closer to a distance smaller than >the sum of their rEP, they will merge into one energy object with >common EP and EV. From this moment, energy is slowly transferred >between both persons, the person will lower energy absorbs energy >from a person with higher energy. We must mention B=C3¸etislav >Kavka here, who described the said energy transfer eighty years ago and >commented on it in terms of psychology. Besides other, he stated that a >person absorbing energy subconsciously feels sympathy, the person giving >energy feels antipathy. I personally do not have any misgivings about passing knowledge to others. The exception is when the receiver feels it necessary to use indirect ways other than just asking. Information is a form of energy. Teaching others is a form of energy transfer. However, one remembers what was just learned by the student. The law of conservation of energy assumes an energy void nonetheless and gives the OK to the space time fabric to put energy (new information) back to fill the void. This is how teachers learn. This is why teachers (should) teach. The relevence of what the teacher learns is proportional to the useful of what was taught relative to the student. Everyone can (and should) be a teacher. Try it and see for yourselves. Beware of the mistake of teaching without teaching. Realative positive usefulness of the info to the student is a key factor. >Every separate grouping of matter in the >nature forms a separate energy object. The transfer of energy >between a man and a menhir may be proved easily. First, we have to find >a menhir. If it no longer has any energy, this is because the water >flow, to which it had been oriented, changed its watercourse several >times over thousands of years and its EV are now located in different >positions. We will not drag the menhir to a different place as did the >primeval people, in our century we have means for that. We can turn a >stone into a menhir by placing a case next to it with ten capacitors of >total capacity of 1.5 F connected to 12 V. After one hour the stone has >become a functional menhir and we can start to experiment. First, we >have to measure its energy - using the already known procedure we will >mark its energy components. A man will sit next to the menhir for an >hour when we have measured his rEP with a dowsing-rod. When comes out of >the menhir's EP, we will measure him again and the difference between >both rEP represents energy gain that will slowly disappear as will the >energy of the menhir. > >After several years of experiments with energy transfers you will learn >to "see energy". You will not expect that by staying in a >twelve-meter rEP of a big tree your rEP would increase to twelve meters >but only to 90 cm. You will not be surprised that ten meters from the >given tree your dowsing-rod will not function since you are part of the >tree's energy, similarly as on a grown meadow or in another EP. You will >have confirmed that the most aggressive impacts on your health are >caused by ever-present energy components of very high voltage electric >lines, which may raise our rEP up to 120 cm if we stay within their >energy components. You will be aware that rEP of 120 cm may further be >increased e.g. by alcohol etc. You will not be surprised that in terms >of energy, alcohol functions in the same way if you have it in your >pocket as if you drink it. After measuring your apartment you will find >out that you are most endangered by the central heating system, electric >lines and electric appliances. > >If your dowsing rod does not function in your apartment, the whole >apartment is located in a common EP. The scope of its negative impact >may be identified using an "energy probe", i.e. by leaving a >plastic bottle filled with pure water for two days in the apartment. The >water will absorb energy from your apartment. In an energy-free place >where the dowsing-rod functions properly you can perform your >evaluation: first, measure the rEP of a man, than give him the bottle >from your apartment to hold and measure his rEP again, the difference >between both rEP represents the EP value of your apartment. In the same >way you can use the "energy probe" to perform rough evaluation >of other energy objects within their energy components. If someone still >considers reactions of the dowsing-rod unprovable, he can prove each of >its reactions using selected capacitors, where the voltage on their >electrodes increases within energy components and does not increase >outside them. > >The dowsing-rod keeps back its last secret - what is the cause of >reactions. The cause of reactions is the contact of two energy >components. One energy component is the dowser's EP, the other >component is the EP or EV of another energy object. Deviation of the >dowsing-rod is caused by opposing force. The "butterfly" >type of dowsing-rod only reacts if it sticks out from the dowser's EP so >that it first contacts another energy object. > >Properties of both energy components are different from the properties >of known energy forms. They are described in literature of the past >centuries, we examine them and supplement them with our findings. We are >going to publish them after completing research in this field. >We call separate energy objects charges; since an opposing force acts >between them similarly as between two positively charged objects. Our >empirical research has been called Charge Interaction. > >Charge Interaction > > >It has become a fact that the function principle which hides space >energy unknown to us, which had to be re-discovered at the end of our >millenium. Space energy was already known to primeval people and they >utilized to their benefit. In order to find our way in the primeval >ages, first we have to invalidate misleading hypotheses and acknowledge >that people of the megalithic culture superseded us in one aspect of >technical development. It sounds unbelievable but I will try to prove it. > >Using the drowsing-rod, our ancestors discovered the energy of water >flows and their energy components. In the same way they discovered that >a stone placed in an energy layer accumulates energy, which may be >similarly transferred to a human body. On all continents, almost at the >same time, they used to place stones in energy layers of water flows, we >then called the stones menhirs. Very likely, they discovered another >method of energy utilization when individual stones were no more >sufficient for them, and they started to build greater sources - rows of >menhirs, big round structures and pyramids. Another finding of theirs >was the fact that clay has the same accumulation property. More than one >hundred thousand clay bulwarks were built in North America, more >followed in England and China. In order for a stone or clay bulwark to >function as an energy accumulator, it has to insulated from the solid >rock bed with a layer of suitable soil or other natural materials. From >the above it follows that all structures built up to the present time, >which are not built on a rock bed and have a layer of soil or other >"insulation material" between the rock bed and the pit base >can function as menhirs, they can accumulate energy in their matter. > >Menhirs were continuously enhanced. An area with clay bulwarks, >underground channels and lakes in San Lorenzo was a big menhir with a >controllable charge. The builders already knew that water could >accumulate energy. By regulating the water flow rate in the underground >channels, they were able to charge water in the lakes as well as the >clay bulwarks. Underground water channels in the Nasca Plateau, which in >several places lead under the Rio de Nasca river, suggest that the >builders wanted to control the water flow rate in the channels. >Otherwise, they would welcome water sources being interconnected. From >the above it follows that the Nasca Plateau may have been an energy >structure. Line in the plateau may be highlighted energy layers of water >flows, sea streams etc. > >Menhirs were constructed on all continents almost at the same time, >therefore, it must have been coordinated action that can be by no means >called a coincidence. If we consider that primeval people used energy >that we are going to learn about, we may even assume that we will >probably learn even more. Water flow energy layers form a dense >three-dimensional grid around our planet, which is conductive for space >energy, therefore, we cannot exclude its use for communication. In case >of D=C3¤ ninken's astronauts with aerials on their helmets, they >did not necessarily have to be astronauts, they may have been our ancestors. > >In Western Europe, approximately sixty fortresses have been built using >the melted stone technology. Arthur Clark has proved through experiments >that no combustible material available at that time could be used to >reach the necessary temperatures. Therefore, we may assume that the >necessary temperature may have been acquired through transformation or >accumulation of space energy. > >Speaking of space energy, we have to divide the life on the Earth into >two periods. From the ancient ages to the nineteenth century and from >then on. In the nineteenth century, when the electrification began, >electric grids disrupted the natural energy balance formed by water >flows and sea streams. When we look at a map showing high voltage and >very high voltage lines, we will easily find out that there are many >more energy grids than water flows. Energy grids generate similar energy >in layers copying their location and direction in the same way as water >flows do, they also interact with each other. In some places there is a >permanent energy overload. > >Energy layers of energy grids, contrary to water flow energy layers, are >not mobile, they may be called static, their gaps are determined by the >voltage irrespective of the amount of current flowing through, they are >more aggressive. The science still does not pay attention to the >negative impacts of energy overloads on organisms but statistics does. >The Health Information and Statistics Institute (HISI) has published a >map of the country which shows highlighted places with different >occurrence of oncologic diseases. Great woodland areas are marked as >places with the highest occurrence of cancer. Places with no woods show >a lower number of cancer occurrences. The question why it is so may be >answered through research of charge interaction. > >According to HISI statistics, cities as a whole are a little better off >but they show some critical places. This is confirmed by statistics of >MUDr. Old=C3¸ich Juri=C5=B7ka, who for half a century marked >occurrences of cancer in the map of Olomouc. In most cases, the patients >came from the same streets or individual houses. In terms of energy this >is the same issue as in the =C5 umava Mountains. The energy >overload is caused by cables, sewage ducts, water distribution pipes, >gas pipes and steam pipes. Engineering grids form one common charge with >one common energy space, which reliably intercepts energy of different >charge energy layers and creates a permanent energy overload. Place >where energy layers cross represent the most aggressive and critical places. > >A cell membrane has a capacity (Cm =3D 1 µ F * >cm-2), therefore, it also has a charge. A charged capacitor >also has a capacity and a charge. Man has an average value of energy >space radius of 35 cm, a similar value is shown by 3 capacitors >with a total capacity of 2 F charged at 6 V. The same energy space >radius will be shown by any number of capacitors with the same total >capacity provided that their energy space overlap. It is very difficult >to measure the capacity of cell membrane, it cannot be performed in >every doctor's office. I am not going to recommend doctors some primeval >practices but energy values of man may be quickly determined by >measuring the energy space radius. It seems to me a question of the near >future that doctors will be equipped with a device that will supersede >the drowsing-rod in many aspects. Energy value is one of the crucial >factors for man's health. This is supported by measuring sound and ill >people. For many centuries, healers have used this fact by passing some >of their energy to their patients. However, in some cases in our century >this works no more, people sometimes suffer not from a lack of energy >but from its abundance. It is more than likely that in the near future >specialized research entities will prove that there is a connection >between deformation of cell membranes and long-term stay in an >overloaded locality. Historical literature states examples how to >relieve of abundant energy but this is just for the short run. We live >in a permanent overload which must be solved in the whole territory. I would like to try this dowsing technique on land I will be looking at soon. Any suggestions on what to look for in terms of good energy patterns? There's a river running through it with funny bends and lots of hardwood trees about. Regards; Dennis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 12:18:22 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA05920; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:14:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:14:06 -0700 From: FJsparber aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:05:59 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: Hydrogen-Potassium Source To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: FJsparber aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"fXeAj.0.MS1.zpb2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26784 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For those chemical neophytes that really want to rough it. :-) H2O + K2CO3 + 4 Mg ----> H2 + 2K + 4MgO + C 0.18 gr 1.38 gr 0.96 gr .02 gr 0.78 gr 1.60 gr 12 gr ------ 2.52 gr ---------- -------- 2.52 gr ----------- 0.02 grams of H2 will make: 0.02/2*1.66E-24 = 6.02E21 molecules of Hydrogen or 6.02E21/2.69E19 = 224 standard Cm^3 of H2 gas. You can get the K2CO3 by leaching it out of wood ashes obtained by burning kindling wood in your bathtub. :-) The Mg (magnesium powder) can be obtained using a file on the right place on an F-16 or equivalent. Going over to Nellis, Vince? :-) The above reaction will occur when you run an electrical discharge in a quartz tube, thus making H or D and K in equal amounts. The Very High melting point of MgO and Carbon will render them inert. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 13:08:53 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA24894; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 13:07:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 13:07:30 -0700 From: FJsparber aol.com Message-ID: <8b92d0c5.243bc1a3 aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:59:31 EDT Subject: Check out Coors Ceramics Co. - Material Properties Table To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: FJsparber aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"revI2.0.u46.1cc2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26785 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Click here: Coors Ceramics Co. - Material Properties Table An Alternative to Quartz for the H2K Discharge Tubes. FJSp From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 13:59:16 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA12900; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 13:56:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 13:56:01 -0700 Message-ID: <370A74DC.2B31 interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 16:55:56 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: Transformer Load Tests References: <462ff834.243b8977 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yv3CE3.0.U93.WJd2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26786 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram aol.com wrote: > > Additionally, I did post, back on April 1st, readings taken with the > transformer secondary open. In amps = 0.42, wattmeter = 12.32, volts = 122.0 Right. So, for open circuit we have: Wattmeter reading ------------------------------- 12.32 watts Primary copper loss = 0.42^2 * 2.3 ohms --------- .41 watts So, we have 12.32 - .41 = 11.91 watts we might lump under no-load "magnetization losses", which may vary in some unknown way with load. Just for kicks, consider the short circuit test point: primary copper loss = 2.03^2 * 2.3 ohms =--------- 9.48 watts secondary copper loss = 0.0206^2 * 17,970 ohms = 7.63 watts assume the magnetization loss is still ---------- 11.91 watts Total we can account for -------- 29.02 watts The wattmeter reads --------------------- 33.49 watts So, we have 33.49 - 29.02 = 4.47 watts we can't pin down. Now, the 32 K load resistor point: primary copper loss = 2^2 * 2.3 ohms = ----------- 9.20 watts secondary copper loss = .0203^2 * 17,970 ohms = 7.41 watts magnetization loss est. ------------------------- 11.91 watts load watts = 650 volts * .0203 amps = ----------- 13.19 watts Total we can account for -------- 41.71 watts The wattmeter reads --------------------- 46.05 watts So, we have 46.05 - 41.71 = 4.34 watts left over, very close to the 4.47 watt residual we had before. The average residual is ~ 4.4 watts. It makes you wonder if we could take 11.91 + 4.4 = 16.31 watts as the so called "magnetization loss" when the transformer is under a good load and just write the secondary power, Psec, as: Psec = wattmeter reading - 16.31 watts - primary copper loss - secondary copper loss. IF WE HAD A FIXED RESISTOR FOR A LOAD! Now, what happens when you uses a GAS DISCHARGE TUBE for a load? I assume such a tube would be a non-linear resistor with very low inductive component (negligible). I don't have a quick answer here - Anyone?? > > I also like Frederick's suggestion re: a fluorescent lamp load. Yes - I've got some of those "cute" little 4-watt, 6" tubes - but I guess they might self-destruct with your transformer. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 14:24:02 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA08434; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990406212446.01569f04 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 17:24:46 -0400 To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: Machiavellian social resistance (skepticism) tounconventional wisdom Resent-Message-ID: <"kQvRL1.0.h32.Jgd2t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26787 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:12 PM 4/6/99 -0500, you wrote: >I doubt it...... >=========== OK, let's see if we can test your theory. To all willing to participate, please read the following passage. Reply to this message with the amount of time you spent thinking about the following along with what you conclude from reading the passage. No peeking at other responses before sending your answer. Regards; Dennis Three of the major observations of this report establishes the following: (1) Since doubt is considered a legitimate function within intellectual processes, the role of those who doubt is given more legitimacy than those who do not doubt. Were this not so then the meaning of doubt would become vague. (2) When doubt is superimposed on direct human experiencing, then the doubt assumes a priority because of its perceived legitimacy. The superimposition then results in a subtle shift of focus away from examining the direct human experiencing and reinstalls the focus within the contexts of the various intellectualisms that have become involved. (3) The history of intellectualisms demonstrates (a) that they have relatively short terms of social fashionability, and (b) that they tend to be elitist in nature because the larger populations either do not, or cannot, share in them. Combining these three observations results in a fourth: that doubt is relative to social enclaves and is thus only transitory against larger issues that remain permanent within the direct experiential thresholds of our species. Reducing these four observations to a possibly crude level, skeptics and debunkers come and go --- but the experiencing thresholds of the species remain the same. The experiencing thresholds are therefore perpetual. Skepticism that advocates doubt regarding something perpetual is relevant only to the transitory intellectual boundaries within which it has arisen. As an apt illustration of the above, Albert Einstein introduced his special theory of relativity in 1905 while he was still a student and working in the patent office in Switzerland. The skeptical responses regarding the theory, and him as a scientist and man, were not only noisy but exceedingly --voluminous.-- By 1925, historians appraised that the Einstein "debate" had accumulated the largest printed paper volume ever. When the special theory was proven correct between 1927 and 1929, it was shown that relativity was perpetual --- naturally existing and true. The skeptical and debunking responses were shown as transitory, however ardent and voluminous they had been. None of the names of Einstein's skeptics are remembered. And this is the ignominious fate of most skeptics --- because the times and tides of discovery march on and forget they existed. The verb "debunk" means "to expose the sham of falseness of something." Debunking is therefore a valuable function and always has been --- in that certain specimens of our species like to engineer sham and falseness in order to benefit from them. Implicit in the term, however, is the distinction between (1) exposing --after the fact of examination, and (2) accusing --before the fact. In this double sense, the term can take on Machiavellian efficiency. "Machiavellianism" refers to Machiavelli's political theory that politics is amoral and that any means however unscrupulous can justifiably be used in achieving political power or purposes. The introduction of Machiavellianism into skepticism and debunking runs counter to their original ethical function and sets up lachrymose contexts so labyrinthine that very few can negotiate them. Indeed, Machiavellianism can only be effective provided the labyrinthine contexts cannot be unravelled. As but one example of Machiavellian debunking, though, I refer the truly interested to the paper entitled "Science Versus Showmanship: A History of the Randi Hoax" by Michael A. Thalbourne just published in The Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research (Oct. 1995, Vol.89, No. 4). --Resistance-- to such research --before-- the facts of the superpowers can be ascertained is therefore puzzling. The only possible explanation must involve not discoverable facts which could speak for themselves but --motives and agendas.-- Most of us recognize that this is the usual case regarding most human confusions --- assuming that mere stupidity or lack of knowledge are not involved as the first instance. But the introduction of motives and agendas further complicates this particular situation already lamentably labyrinthine in its overall character. The etymological history of the term "skepticism" shows that it has undergone several definition formats and social applications since it was first coined in ancient Greece --- down until today when it is almost exclusively taken as referring to someone opposed to the "paranormal" and anything resembling them. During the Renaissance period, when the schism between science and religion started up, skepticism was largely taken as referring to "doubt concerning basic religious principles" such as immortality, providence, revelation, the existence of the soul, etc. This is to say that --skepticism-- was then used almost as a synonym for anti-religion on behalf of sequestering the evolving sciences from it. The ethical, and even logical goal of the true skeptic is to resolve doubt by identifying facts, not to reinforce doubt in the absence of discovered facts --- and certainly not to underwrite Machiavellian debunking tactics to prevent the needed research. True skepticism does not --begin-- by being anti- anything. The processes of open consideration and examination (i.e., research) will ultimately establish whether something exists or not. There is hardly no other way via which doubt, belief, or confusions between them can be resolved on behalf of acquiring increases in knowledge. And this is especially true as regards the true extent of human sentiency --- for sentient beings have an inalienable bio-mind right to know of the true extent of their sentiency. If such a skeptic is utilizing the conventional definitions of the modern mainstream sciences and philosophies --which have neither considered nor researched the unconventional, then such a skeptic is utilizing nothing at all except hearsay or prejudice based on it. Clearly those who --have-- attempted to research the unconventional know more about them than those who never have made the attempt --- just as conventional modern scientists and philosophers have not. Here is the basis for a pogrom. A "pogrom" is defined as "an organized massacre of helpless people." Such a pogrom regarding "sensitives" took place during the Inquisitions of the Middle Ages. Some historians estimate the high body count at 9 million over a 300-year period. Ridicule and defamation during modern times of sensitives and researchers of the unconventional is a kind of pogrom, especially when supported in the mainstream media. It is interesting indeed why in our scientific times there should be such a pogrom that victimizes our species unconventional views with its marvelous spectrum of sentiency. It may be that someone somewhere doesn't want that marvelous spectrum to be identified and DEVELOPED. *From a paper produced by Ingo Swann for the Intelligence Community (aka the CIA) on Social Resistance to Psi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 14:42:29 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA26390; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:40:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:40:46 -0700 From: FJsparber aol.com Message-ID: <97c425fb.243bd66e aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:28:14 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: Alumina/Zirconia Tubing vs Quartz To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: FJsparber aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"bUGXH1.0.6S6.Uzd2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26788 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince, One major problem with Quartz (M.P. 1600 C)is it's reactivity with Potassium to form low-melting Potassium Silicates: K2Si2O5, M.P. 1015 C, K2SiO3, M.P. 976 C, and with the H2, KHSi2O5,M.P. 515 C. This is similar to doping SiO2 with Alkalis to make low-melting Glass. :-) I think this is where your Potassium went in your previous runs. For Down the Road, Alumina M.P. 2015 C(Not Mullite 3 Al2O3-2SiO2) or Zirconia, ZrO2, M.P. 2715 C, tubing which is much more stable toward the Potassium might be worth considering. Coors Ceramics or other suppliers should have these as off-the-shelf items at a reasonable cost if the minimum order price dosen't get you, OTOH,you can always top off the the order with Coors Lite "Brewed With Pure Rocky Mountain Spring Water". :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 17:57:00 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA25210; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:48:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:48:53 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <648a4480.243c02a9 aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:36:57 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: Transformer Load Tests To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"NHyRl3.0.q96.rjg2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26789 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/06/1999 13:58:50 Pacific Daylight Time, fstenger interlaced.net writes: > IF WE HAD A FIXED RESISTOR FOR A LOAD! > > Now, what happens when you uses a GAS DISCHARGE TUBE for a load? > I assume such a tube would be a non-linear resistor with very low > inductive component (negligible). I don't have a quick answer here - > Anyone?? Frank, I seem to remember that once a gas discharge tube goes into conduction the voltage drop across the tube will remain fairly constant. Where did I read this..? Mercury vapor rectifier tubes or something like that a long time ago...can't remember but I might be completely wrong about this. Does this mean that as voltage goes up resistance drops? > > > > I also like Frederick's suggestion re: a fluorescent lamp load. > > Yes - I've got some of those "cute" little 4-watt, 6" tubes - but I > guess they might self-destruct with your transformer. > Frank Stenger I will try a 40 watt tube and try some measurments just for grins. Thanks very much for the number crunching. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 18:08:03 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA00596; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:01:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:01:43 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <232f2ad6.243c02a7 aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:36:55 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: Transformer Load Tests To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"vXQ_A.0.E9.tvg2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26790 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/06/1999 09:14:16 Pacific Daylight Time, VCockeram aol.com writes: > In a message dated 04/06/1999 08:05:11 Pacific Daylight Time, > fstenger interlaced.net writes: > > > where I assumed sinusoidal secondary waveforms and, Vince, I changed > > your first secondary voltage to 0.0247 VAC to fit the 1.2 ohm load and > > the 0.0206 amp current - is this right? > Frank, I just re-ran the 1.2 ohm load test and saw the problem. I had the meter set to the millivolt scale and I did not take note that the display had changed from "V" to "mV". so I read "24.83 VOLTS" where I should have read "24.83 MILLIVOLTS". Anyway the test just now on the 2 volt scale, read 0.025 V and when switched to the millivolt scale, read 24.81 mV. I always had problems with decimal points late at night. Thanks for catching that. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 19:06:53 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA30497; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:05:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:05:38 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990406195340.015c3ff8 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 15:53:40 -0400 To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: Machiavellian social resistance (skepticism) to unconventional wisdom Resent-Message-ID: <"nNszj.0.RS7.orh2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26791 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: My God, where does one begin with something like this? At 08:38 PM 4/4/99 -0400, you wrote: >Three of the major observations of this report establishes the >following: > > (1) Since doubt is considered a legitimate function within > intellectual processes, the role of those who doubt is given > more legitimacy than those who do not doubt. Were this not so > then the meaning of doubt would become vague. I do not consider doubt a legitimate intellectual process when confronting something new. I think 'what is it' until everything possible is heard. Then you check all the data for accuracy and the answer is obvious. Doubt without reason relative to the issue in question in and of itself, is not logical. > (2) When doubt is superimposed on direct human > experiencing, then the doubt assumes a priority because of its > perceived legitimacy. The superimposition then results in a > subtle shift of focus away from examining the direct human > experiencing and reinstalls the focus within the contexts of the > various intellectualisms that have become involved. > > (3) The history of intellectualisms demonstrates (a) that they > have relatively short terms of social fashionability, and (b) that > they tend to be elitist in nature because the larger populations > either do not, or cannot, share in them. > >Combining these three observations results in a fourth: that doubt >is relative to social enclaves and is thus only transitory against >larger issues that remain permanent within the direct experiential >thresholds of our species. > >Reducing these four observations to a possibly crude level, >skeptics and debunkers come and go --- but the experiencing >thresholds of the species remain the same. The experiencing >thresholds are therefore perpetual. Skepticism that advocates >doubt regarding something perpetual is relevant only to the >transitory intellectual boundaries within which it has arisen. > >As an apt illustration of the above, Albert Einstein introduced his >special theory of relativity in 1905 while he was still a student >and working in the patent office in Switzerland. The skeptical >responses regarding the theory, and him as a scientist and man, >were not only noisy but exceedingly --voluminous.-- > >By 1925, historians appraised that the Einstein "debate" had >accumulated the largest printed paper volume ever. > >When the special theory was proven correct between 1927 and >1929, it was shown that relativity was perpetual --- naturally >existing and true. The skeptical and debunking responses were >shown as transitory, however ardent and voluminous they had >been. None of the names of Einstein's skeptics are remembered. >And this is the ignominious fate of most skeptics --- because the >times and tides of discovery march on and forget they existed. There maybe great social costs caused by such a system of automated baseless naysaying. A delay will result in the use of the idea which could cause otherwise preventable difficulty to the innocent bystanders who have to live on this planet. >The verb "debunk" means "to expose the sham of falseness of >something." Debunking is therefore a valuable function and >always has been --- in that certain specimens of our species like to >engineer sham and falseness in order to benefit from them. > >Implicit in the term, however, is the distinction between (1) >exposing --after the fact of examination, and (2) accusing --before >the fact. In this double sense, the term can take on Machiavellian >efficiency. > >"Machiavellianism" refers to Machiavelli's political theory that >politics is amoral and that any means however unscrupulous can >justifiably be used in achieving political power or purposes. > >The introduction of Machiavellianism into skepticism and >debunking runs counter to their original ethical function and sets >up lachrymose contexts so labyrinthine that very few can >negotiate them. Indeed, Machiavellianism can only be effective >provided the labyrinthine contexts cannot be unravelled. > >As but one example of Machiavellian debunking, though, I refer >the truly interested to the paper entitled "Science Versus >Showmanship: A History of the Randi Hoax" by Michael A. >Thalbourne just published in The Journal of the American >Society for Psychical Research (Oct. 1995, Vol.89, No. 4). > >--Resistance-- to such research --before-- the facts of the >superpowers can be ascertained is therefore puzzling. > >The only possible explanation must involve not discoverable facts >which could speak for themselves but --motives and agendas.-- > >Most of us recognize that this is the usual case regarding most >human confusions --- assuming that mere stupidity or lack of >knowledge are not involved as the first instance. But the >introduction of motives and agendas further complicates this >particular situation already lamentably labyrinthine in its overall >character. > >The etymological history of the term "skepticism" shows that it >has undergone several definition formats and social applications >since it was first coined in ancient Greece --- down until today >when it is almost exclusively taken as referring to someone >opposed to the "paranormal" and anything resembling them. > >During the Renaissance period, when the schism between science >and religion started up, skepticism was largely taken as referring >to "doubt concerning basic religious principles" such as >immortality, providence, revelation, the existence of the soul, etc. >This is to say that --skepticism-- was then used almost as a >synonym for anti-religion on behalf of sequestering the evolving >sciences from it. > >The ethical, and even logical goal of the true skeptic is to resolve >doubt by identifying facts, not to reinforce doubt in the absence of >discovered facts --- and certainly not to underwrite Machiavellian >debunking tactics to prevent the needed research. > >True skepticism does not --begin-- by being anti- anything. The >processes of open consideration and examination (i.e., research) >will ultimately establish whether something exists or not. > >There is hardly no other way via which doubt, belief, or >confusions between them can be resolved on behalf of acquiring >increases in knowledge. And this is especially true as regards the >true extent of human sentiency --- for sentient beings have an >inalienable bio-mind right to know of the true extent of their >sentiency. > >If such a skeptic is utilizing the conventional definitions of the >modern mainstream sciences and philosophies --which have >neither considered nor researched the unconventional, then such a >skeptic is utilizing nothing at all except hearsay or prejudice >based on it. Clearly those who --have-- attempted to research the >unconventional know more about them than those who never have >made the attempt --- just as conventional modern scientists and >philosophers have not. > >Here is the basis for a pogrom. A "pogrom" is defined as "an >organized massacre of helpless people." Such a pogrom regarding >"sensitives" took place during the Inquisitions of the Middle >Ages. Some historians estimate the high body count at 9 million >over a 300-year period. Ridicule and defamation during modern >times of sensitives and researchers of the unconventional is a kind of >pogrom, especially when supported in the mainstream media. > >It is interesting indeed why in our scientific times there should be >such a pogrom that victimizes our species unconventional views >with its marvelous spectrum of sentiency. It may be that >someone somewhere doesn't want that marvelous spectrum to be >identified and DEVELOPED. Could a bunch of idiots running amock produce the same results. >*From a paper produced by Ingo Swann for the Intelligence >Community (aka the CIA) on Social Resistance to Psi. Let me guess, this is required reading at CIA U. What message will the average cadet get from this? Would it be something like: 1. Doubt is intelligent 2. Doubters get respect and control of situations. 3. Let's see... debunk... skepticism... Machiavelli... pogrom... 4. Someone somewhere who apparently transcends time and space wants this POGROM thing... Conclusion of average CIA wannabe - Gee this must be the recommended and approved Modus Operandi when encountering similar situations in the field... Dennis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 19:39:33 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA07558; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:38:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:38:19 -0700 From: FJsparber aol.com Message-ID: <102c1462.243c1e57 aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:35:03 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: Transformer Load Test To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: FJsparber aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"keLK82.0.yr1.RKi2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26792 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank, Vince The Volt-Ampere curve for an electrical discharge shows a voltage peak from about 1.0E-3 amperes up to about 1.0 Amperes,after which arcs and sparks kick in, so with a constant current supply locked at the transformer nameplate rating of 0.023 amperes at 5,000 volts :-) you should get up to 115 watts from a discharge device. The neon sign transformers do the same with the tubing whether it is a foot long or many feet long. The standard 40 watt (0.41 ampere ~= 99 volt) 48 inch 1.5 inch diameter (T12)or 18 inch (T12) 15 watt Fluorescent bulbs should do okay on the furnace transformer, if the transformer can take it. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 20:18:31 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA22333; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:16:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:16:26 -0700 From: FJsparber aol.com Message-ID: <70c77dc4.243c265f aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 23:09:19 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: Transformer Load Test To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: FJsparber aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"MFBts1.0.tS5.Aui2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26793 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince, The 15 watt 18 inch (T12) bulb draws about 0.33 amperes at 48 volts. The new Electrical Code(Energy Conservation)Doesn't Allow the old Instant Start Fluorescent Ballasts that ran up the voltage high enough to start the discharge then burnt up the excess in the ballasts. I'm willing to purchase the new Electronic Instant Start Ballast that kicks up the start voltage (so that a starter and filaments are not required) and are compatable with any standard Fluorescent bulb and run at frequencies up to 40 kilohertz or so for much higher efficiency and eliminate the low frequency flicker that "strobed" machine tools thus causing many machine shop injuries. The shops were required to have incandescent bulbs along with fluorescents to prevent this. Almost stuck my hand in the moving fan blades of my car one night while checking the oil at a gas station that had fluorescent lights in the canopy. I can get the Electronic Instant Start 40 Watt Ballast for about $35.00 through my Grainger "Source". If Frank has a Grainger Catalog we can sort through it to find the best unit in that price range. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 20:51:14 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA00337; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:50:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:50:28 -0700 Message-ID: <370AD663.28EC interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 23:52:03 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: Transformer Load Test References: <102c1462.243c1e57 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lE_4K2.0.B5.4Oj2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26795 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FJsparber aol.com wrote: > > Frank, Vince > > The Volt-Ampere curve for an electrical discharge shows a voltage peak from > about > 1.0E-3 amperes up to about 1.0 Amperes,after which arcs and sparks kick in, > so with a constant current supply locked at the transformer nameplate rating > of 0.023 amperes at 5,000 volts :-) you should get up to 115 watts from a > discharge device. Fred, I may have to try to do a crude scope picture of the tube voltage on a fluorescent tube using my 5000 volt neon xfmr. Since the current has to go thru zero every half cycle, I wonder if there is an ignition spike each time the tube starts to conduct in a new direction? Or, maybe the residual ionization makes for a soft start the next half cycle? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 20:53:19 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA32250; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:49:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:49:41 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 23:38:48 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: Transformer Load Tests To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"lbpn12.0.mt7.KNj2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26794 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Some additional data points to the transformer load tests. This evening I ran load tests using three different florescent lamps, a standard 40 watt, a 15 watt (from a desk lamp) and a small lamp from a battery (6 volt) operated hand lamp. This last lamp had no markings on it but was a florescent lamp with two terminals on each end. The same meters were used in the tests. Line voltage was 121.5 Here are the results: ==================================================== ----LOAD-------PRI-AMP-------WATTS-----SEC-VOLTS-----SEC-AMP 40 watt lamp-----2.00------------38.55-----------215.0-------------0.0203 15 watt lamp-----2.00------------36.00-----------162.0-------------0.0204 small lamp *-----2.00------------33.45-------------53.3-------------0.0206 * Small lamp was 5 inches in length by 5/8 inch outside diameter. No markings on this lamp. I now turn these observations loose upon the Guru's of Vortex to ponder. The test protocol was: (1) connect the lamp for the particular parameter being measured. (2) power on with the variac at zero output (variac on input side of HV transformer) (3) slowly increase the variac to maximum while observing the meter. (4) let the meter reading come to a steady value and record it. Very noticeable with the 15 watt and the "small lamp" was the voltage, but NOT the current increased to around 200~250 volts with the variac at about half way up. It then fell back to it final recorded value. If the variac was stopped at the half way point the voltage fell back after about 5 seconds or so. Further increasing the transformer input voltage (with the variac) had no effect on the voltage across the lamp. Very interesting.... Note: The variac is wired to give full line voltage at maximum. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 21:18:49 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA18607; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:17:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:17:38 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <78c7a632.243c3104 aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 23:54:44 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: Transformer Load Test To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"0XHwf1.0.fY4.Ynj2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26796 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/06/1999 20:18:07 Pacific Daylight Time, FJsparber aol.com writes: > I can get the Electronic Instant Start 40 Watt Ballast for about $35.00 > through my Grainger "Source". If Frank has a Grainger Catalog we can sort > through it to find the best unit in that price range. > > Regards, Frederick Yes, we were kicking this idea around here last March or April at Horace Heffner's suggestion. I have the Grainger catalog. Something to think about for the future if I can ever get this 'ol 60 Hz thing to work. There is a large Graingers store in town and I have an account with them. http://www.grainger.com Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 21:19:41 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA19214; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:18:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:18:44 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <18293960.243c34cb aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 00:10:51 EDT Subject: H2K: Wrong "reply to" line To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"WMXhH2.0.8i4.aoj2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26797 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Maybe this is a general AOL problem. Read below the post I just got from Fred... Subj: Re: H2K: Transformer Load Test Date: 04/06/1999 20:18:07 Pacific Daylight Time From: FJsparber aol.com Reply-to: FJsparber@aol.com <---this is whats screwed up. vince To: vortex-l eskimo.com Vince, The 15 watt 18 inch (T12) bulb ......... Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 21:25:31 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA21806; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:21:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:21:54 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 00:05:32 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: Transformer Load Test To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Ii-Sr2.0.YK5.Yrj2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26798 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I notice the bloody AOL mail server is putting my E-mail address in the Reply To: line, even when I send the post to Vortex-l. What a pain in the butt for people when they try a reply. This happened once before but I can't remember how I got it fixed. Be sure to notice the SEND TO box when firing off a reply to my posts. I have gotten several in the last few days that were clearly ment to go to Vortex but came directly to me instead. I will forward all such posts to vortex unless the E-mail is marked as personal. Sorry guys. Regards, Vince Cockeram From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 22:04:34 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA02043; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:03:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:03:54 -0700 From: FJsparber aol.com Message-ID: <86b27136.243c4069 aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:00:25 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: Transformer Load Tests To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: FJsparber aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"3g4W53.0.rV.vSk2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26799 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I lost your message, Frank. It's going to take a a bit of getting used to this AOL 4.0 mail system. But, your use of a scope to see a fluorescent bulb fire using a neon sign transformer is a good idea. As for the re-ignition the Ballast Inductance should give a back emf (-dI/dt) keeps the voltage across the tube high enough to keep it lit. Thus you only need the start-up once. You will notice from Vince's Fluorescent Bulb experiment posts, that they stayed lit. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 6 22:06:56 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA02077; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:03:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:03:56 -0700 Message-ID: <19990407050415.3003.rocketmail web117.yahoomail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:04:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: H2K: Transformer Load Tests To: Vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"rEx693.0.NW.ySk2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26800 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram aol.com wrote: [lots of good measurement data] Frank Stenger's analysis of the resistive load test looks right to me. As I said a couple of days ago, there are primary and secondary ohmic losses and core losses. The main core loss should remain pretty constant, if primary voltage remains constant. The missing 4 watt pointed out by Frbnis probably the part of the core loss that depends on secondary current. You will have to measure it by coming up with ways to measure performance with a wide range of resistive loads, including higher voltage. I am surprised that the data with the fluorescent lamps came out as good as it did, ie. that simple multiplication of secondary meter-reading volts times amps gave a power that was close to the increment measured by the wattmeter. Surprising, because the waveforms were probably substantially nonsinusiodal. Fluroescent lamps are designed so that their electrodes (usually filaments) heat up in a few seconds, to provide some electron emission and reduce the voltage needed to start each new half cycle discharge. I think htey also put in gas additives to slow the rate of ion-electron recombination, again to make restrike easier. Now, let's take stock. Your burner ignition transformer is a complicated device. You will never convince anyone that you understand its behavior well enough to agree that you have done an EXPERIMENT. It is the wrong tool for the job. What you need IMHO is the following. Go out around the used electronic stores and buy a transformer that has a secondary voltage of about 1 kV (enough to ignite your H2K discharge; remember a 1 kV secondary has a peak voltage of about 1.4 kV). The secondary should be rated for at least 100 mA; more is better. Next, scrounge the stores for an inductive ballast or choke that has about 30 ohm inductive reactance, which means about 80 millihenry. The precise value is not important. Between 50 and 120 mH should do. The choke should be rated for about 1 Amp. This choke goes on the PRIMARY side of your transformer. The setup is: Variac --> Choke --> Wattmeter --> Transformer | Transf. --> Load Primary | Secondary My logic is: A regular transformer has relatively low core and Ohmic losses. It will probably be about 90% efficient. It will also have less complex behavior than the current-limiting ignition transformer. Therefore, you will be able to characterize its losses more easily. In the end, you will end up with a better measurement of your input power to the load. The choke ballast in the primary keeps the current from running away. The current-limiting element does its thing BEFORE the wattmeter. === Michael J. Schaffer _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 7 04:48:40 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA26449; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 04:45:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 04:45:27 -0700 From: UNIR2B1NM aol.com Message-ID: <3f867b22.243c9f1e aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 07:44:30 EDT Subject: Re: Machiavellian social resistance (skepticism) to unconventional wisdom To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5 for Windows Reply-To: UNIR2B1NM aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"pNUri.0.BT6.NLq2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26801 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gosh, what a refreshing email! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 7 05:22:58 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA00204; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 05:19:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 05:19:50 -0700 From: FJsparber aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:19:13 EDT Subject: Re:H2K: Transformer Load Tests To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: FJsparber aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Yk0w4.0.23.crq2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26802 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think Mike Schaffer is bit exasperated. :-) Based on the very good data that Vince got with the Xfrmer I agree that you can't squeeze any more than about 4 watts out of it, and probably not much more than 20 watts out of a 60 ma. neon sign Xfrmr. This is why I scrounged three PCB insulated 15 kva pole transformers from the local power company several years ago and ran them "backwards" on 120/240 v.a.c. 60 hz and got 7,200 volts 1.5 amps on the secondary, or by cheating and putting 240 on one side of the ct you can get 14,400 volts on the secondary. With a Variac you can drop the output down to Zip. This will meet Mike Schaffer's " at least 100 ma at 1400 volts peak". :-) WITH SAFETY DISCLAIMER! Regards, frederick Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 7 06:39:11 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA15358; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 06:24:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 06:24:21 -0700 From: UNIR2B1NM aol.com Message-ID: <20545ccf.243cb648 aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:23:20 EDT Subject: Re: Machiavellian social resistance (skepticism) to unconventional wisdom To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5 for Windows Reply-To: UNIR2B1NM aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"xCtpx2.0.pl3.5or2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26803 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, Dennis-- Gosh, what a refreshing email! It's heartening to find someone who evinces interest--let alone conceptual facility--regarding the all-important set of thought *processes* that constitutes the actual fabric of the space-time universe, the nature and character of our individual lives and the resultant macrocosm called 'the world'. for many years, I've been practicing a way of analyzing such behaviors and attitudes as your email discusses in light of a perspective that is sufficiently abstract, yet sufficiently definitive and precise, to encompass and evaluate them; a perspective that I, with Hegel, call Dialectics. I noticed that the meaning and content of your remarks and of the reference you cited hangs on the definitions of 'truth' and 'ethics', definitions that are left *presumed*. If the world is indeed approaching a critical point in its evolution,(esp. due to the machinations of covert grous liek the CIA) then it is our consensus on these presumed definitions that is at stake. The more social engineering methods have burgeoned--involving methods of manipulating everything from the mass media to the human genome (not to mention weapons of mass destruction)--the more clearly these presumptions can be seen as the ultimate determinant of our destiny. Reconciling this issue with Science and Progress has been an ongoing preoccupation of mine that has afforded som occasional moments of clarity. In a message dated 99-04-06 22:06:47 EDT, you write: >4. Someone somewhere who apparently transcends time and space wants this >POGROM thing... There's an interesting Outer Limits episode (from the 60's) called "Wolf 359" that specifically dramatizes your point; it can be rented in some places. Long before I heard the author of _Hollywood Vs. the Aliens_ discussing his investigations into the resumes of many sci-fi producers and consultants, I had already suspected that military intelligence types were influential throughout classic sci-fi movies & TV--particularly the Outer Limits--based on my exhaustive, hermaneutical analysis of the entire genre's philosophic content. This certainly correlates with research into grand conspiracies and trends in international (now, UN) treaties. --Russ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 7 09:50:09 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA12007; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:46:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:46:10 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <48ef0df.243ce483 aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:40:35 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: On hold for a cleanup To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"g_tX61.0.Ox2.Ilu2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26804 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, The experiment is on hold today as wife Laura has been out of town for last two weeks , returning tonight and I gotta get this place cleaned up or I'm dead. :-) Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 7 09:53:14 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA14334; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:50:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:50:16 -0700 Message-ID: <370B8D22.5B72 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 12:51:46 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: Load Waveforms References: <19990407050415.3003.rocketmail web117.yahoomail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9jkw51.0.uV3.8pu2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26805 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Schaffer wrote: > > I am surprised that the data with the fluorescent lamps came out as good as > it did, ie. that simple multiplication of secondary meter-reading volts > times amps gave a power that was close to the increment measured by the > wattmeter. Surprising, because the waveforms were probably substantially > nonsinusiodal. Yes indeed. For what it's worth, I made a very crude run with my old vacuum tube, single channel, AC only scope. I used one of those little tubes included in Vince's runs - intended for small camp lights - about 4 watt rating. I was surprised to see a very nice sinusoidal wave for the current when I used a 1 ohm resistor for a shunt. The tube voltage, however, was like a square wave with a down-sloping top. A bit like: . . . . . . . . . . . . . ________________._______________________.____________________________ . . . . . . . . . . . . . where I may have a bit more down-slope than was really there and, the vertical wave ends may just have been portions of clipped sine waves. The DMM indicated about 46 volts AC for the value, and, with my neon xfmr, the current was probably about 0.018 amps = the rated value. If the current waveform was sinusoidal, and the voltage was almost a square wave, I wonder if the DMM would have read a value of voltage about equal to the amplitude of the square wave. If so, the voltage- current product might be close to true power. Ideas??? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 7 10:16:37 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA23816; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:14:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:14:01 -0700 Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C0215B18C XCH-CPC-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: H2K: Load Waveforms Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:13:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2407.0) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"7QppG.0.2q5.P9v2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26806 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Cheap DMM's usually read the peak AC voltage above ground, then divide the value obtained by 1.414 to give an RMS reading for sinewaves. The circuit is basically a series capacitor followed by a diode, into the DC circuit.of the DMM. A better DMM reads the actual RMS value of the input waveform. They are usually clearly marked. Hank > ---------- > From: Francis J. Stenger[SMTP:fstenger interlaced.net] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 9:51 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: H2K: Load Waveforms > > Michael Schaffer wrote: > > > > > I am surprised that the data with the fluorescent lamps came out as good > as > > it did, ie. that simple multiplication of secondary meter-reading volts > > times amps gave a power that was close to the increment measured by the > > wattmeter. Surprising, because the waveforms were probably substantially > > nonsinusiodal. > > Yes indeed. For what it's worth, I made a very crude run with my old > vacuum tube, single channel, AC only scope. I used one of those little > tubes included in Vince's runs - intended for small camp lights - about > 4 watt rating. > I was surprised to see a very nice sinusoidal wave for the current when > I used a 1 ohm resistor for a shunt. > The tube voltage, however, was like a square wave with a down-sloping > top. A bit like: > > . > . . > . . > . . > . . > . . > . . > ________________._______________________.____________________________ > . . > . . > . . > . . > . . > . . > . > > where I may have a bit more down-slope than was really there and, the > vertical wave ends may just have been portions of clipped sine waves. > The DMM indicated about 46 volts AC for the value, and, with my neon > xfmr, the current was probably about 0.018 amps = the rated value. > > If the current waveform was sinusoidal, and the voltage was almost a > square wave, I wonder if the DMM would have read a value of voltage > about equal to the amplitude of the square wave. If so, the voltage- > current product might be close to true power. Ideas??? > > Frank Stenger > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 7 13:45:34 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA25450; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:40:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:40:04 -0700 Message-ID: <370BC301.3BF3 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 16:41:37 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: Load Waveforms References: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C0215B18C XCH-CPC-02> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"w5kyO2.0.aD6.aAy2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26807 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scudder, Henry J wrote: > > Frank > Cheap DMM's usually read the peak AC voltage above ground, then > divide the value obtained by 1.414 to give an RMS reading for sinewaves. Got it, Hank - thanks. Maybe Vince's new DMM is a true-RMS type? - We'll have to ask him when he gets the house cleaned up. :-) Also, I MUST get one of those new DMM's (like Vince) with an RS-232 PC input! Sounds like a "must have". Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 7 14:57:57 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA00250; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:53:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:53:41 -0700 Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C0215B18D XCH-CPC-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: H2K: Load Waveforms Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:52:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2407.0) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"_sMn91.0.l3.aFz2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26808 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have one. It has come in handy. Hank > ---------- > From: Francis J. Stenger[SMTP:fstenger interlaced.net] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 1:41 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: H2K: Load Waveforms > > Scudder, Henry J wrote: > > > > Frank > > Cheap DMM's usually read the peak AC voltage above ground, then > > divide the value obtained by 1.414 to give an RMS reading for sinewaves. > > Got it, Hank - thanks. Maybe Vince's new DMM is a true-RMS type? - > We'll have to ask him when he gets the house cleaned up. :-) > > Also, I MUST get one of those new DMM's (like Vince) with an RS-232 > PC input! Sounds like a "must have". > > Frank Stenger > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 7 16:21:05 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA08069; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:17:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:17:06 -0700 Message-ID: <370BE6EF.3B914EAB earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 17:14:55 -0600 From: "Richard T. Murray" Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Chubb: Blue: band state theory 4.7.99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lN1Sy1.0._z1.oT-2t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26809 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: Chubb: Blue: band state theory 4.7.99 Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 10:14:30 -0400 From: chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil To: rmforall earthlink.net [Hello Dick Blue and Scott Chubb, I'll send all my posts to you both, so you can use my lists yourself...hint, hint. Also, send to vortex-L eskimo.com, and to sci.physics.fusion. Fondly, Rich Murray] Richard, I sent you a message similar to this one a couple of days ago I thought you might not have received it since you didn't send it out. Because this message is slightly different from the original, I would appreciate your forwarding this (revised) version (in place of the original) to the people on your distribution list(s). If you would like me to send it out separately, let me know. I have three comments concerning Dick Blue's most recent "posting." 1. Dick wrote: "To pick on one example relating to supposed helium production. Jed, in discussing the technique employed for sampling gas evolved during electrolysis, suggests that the flow of gas through the sampling bottle is sufficient to preclude any backstreaming of helium from the atmosphere into the sample volume. That is a very dangerous assumption that rests, I suspect, on an incomplete understanding of the kinetics of gas molecules." This was not a problem. The difficulty was that in two of the long-time-duration (out of 5) runs, about %50 of the 4He (that was required to account quantifiably for the excess heat) was trapped in the electrode. Subsequently, it was possible to extract the 4He, and the amount just happened to be the correct amount to account for excess heat. This was very careful work, using steel flasks, with the kinetics accounted for correctly. If Dick wishes to quantifiably criticize it, he should take this issue up with Mike McKubre and Ben Bush, not Jed. The work was carried out over a 3-4 year period, and there is a final EPRI report that documents the findings. 2. Later Dick wrote: "Jed's noting that the very name to be applied to these phenomena(?) remains problematic is a sure sign that something is rather sick about all of this. After 10 years the advocates still can't really afford to be pinned down to a specific hypothesis regarding the reaction process." Actually, I think the problem is not with the "advocates." It is with the tone of the debate as it occurred 10 years ago and as it continues to unfold amoung conventional physicists. In particular, most conventional physicists, for example, simply are unaware of Arata's, McKubre's, and Miles's/B. Bush's findings. Most believe, for the most part, that high energy particles are required in "Cold Fusion." This has been a sore point, especially with the APS, and the breakdown of communication about this can be traced directly to the APS special session that was held on 1 May 1989, in Baltimore. With this in mind, I began the session by noting that the situation was muddled initially because people thought "Cold Fusion" had to involve high energy particles but significant evidence now exists that reveals this is not the case. Jed's comments with regard to this point simply were a response to mine. 3. Dick Blue also wrote: "While I'm at it I will admit to making the rounds of the assorted CF web sites. Some of them don't ever change, but I did note that the Chubb "theory" is now placing more emphasis on surface states. However, it is still pretty vague on key points such as the difference between the wave function for pairs of non-interacting deuterons as opposed to 4He nuclei." Certain details have become more concrete. In fact, at the APS meeting, I raised an important point that we have not emphasized, and I recognize with hindsight that this has been a bone of contention between Dick and me. All along, we have been using the assumption that there is a bonafide interaction that can penetrate to all length scales without generating high energy particles and radiation: the static, periodic Coulomb Potential. What is obviously foreign to Dick is why and how this can occur. In point of fact, the reason this can occur is that the static Coulomb Potential provides a means for momentum conservation to be violated locally, on any timescale, without energy being radiated. When momentum conservation is violated in this way, the ordinary separation in energy/time scales between the electromagnetic and nuclear interactions becomes violated. At the APS meeting, I emphasized this point. In our theory, we have quantified this observation by requiring that the pair separation wave function have wave function cusps (resulting in discontinuous changes in momentum) at locations where possible, non-separable coupling between the strong and electromagnetic interactions may occur. Subsequently, I have thought of a detailed procedure for explicitly modelling the non-separability of these two interactions, which incorporates the essential physics associated with cusps but makes use of an approximate, multiple scattering technique (the Koringa-Kohn-Rostoker method). This construction provides a more detailed procedure for constructing the relevant (D-D separation variable) band states. The resulting band states have the appropriate close (nuclear dimension) and far (electrostatic) D-D separation behavior, with the intermediate scale behavior (and local momentum conservation or non-conservation), and transition between nuclear potential scale and electromagnetic potential scales determined by the requirement that globally momentum be conserved. To say that we are emphasizing "surface states" is really an oversimplification. I think what he is really alluding to is the fact that energy release is proposed to occur primarily in the surface region. I think it is appropriate to recall, with regard to this point, that on numerous occasions in my communications with Dick, that I have mentioned this point. It is nice to see that this fact is beginning to be appreciated. An interesting point is that the picture that one might take away from our model is that "collisions" at a point (where by "collisions", one is referring to locations where energy is being released) are replaced in our picture effectively as "coherent" "collisions" (using the comparable definition) between band state "particles" with the surface region. For a number of years, we have been saying this. More recently, we have been explicitly tying heat release to a coherent redistribution of charge in the surface region. SCOTT CHUBB From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 7 22:32:51 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA29008; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:31:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:31:53 -0700 Message-ID: <370C3FAD.256A268E ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 22:33:33 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Vortex-L eskimo.com" CC: Russ George Subject: Addendum to the '99 APS Centinneal Conference Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bavm92.0.A57.9z33t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26810 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: April 7, 1999 Vortex: The way "Palladium Electrochemistry" was chaired by Scott Chubb was "efficient". Jed made a nice report on the session. I just have a little difference on the way Russ George was given a chance to report on his successful Case replication experiment. This was buttressed by reviewing the videotape of the session. As an aside, I was surprised to see Douglas Morrison in attendance for this small session as contrasted with the ICCF's that he has been attending. Regardless of his seeming position, I later congratulated him as being a member of the 'Loyal Opposition' as he sat later by himself with some coffee and paper. This is healthy as contrasted with activities reported by Jed of Park, Zimmerman, Huizenga, et al on Monday. The session was started by Scott Chubb at 14:00. Since this was the last session to be held in that room, Scott Chubb remarked that we had essentially until 17:00 for ourselves. However, the 'formal' presentations were kept to a timed 10 minutes (+-) for each presentation. In the last of his three part presentation by McKubre, his 'time' allotment ran out so he did not give the Case replication report. At the start of his presentation, he flashed a viewgraph cover of the replication with Tanzella, George, and Case listed as co-authors (and I presume, McKubre too since he was reporting and was listed in an earlier abstract of his presentation with his name and Tanzella as authors but without George or Case). Then, after Mckubre's presentation was cut because of the 'time limit', Scott Chubb recognized Russ George in the back and invited him to come foward and fill out the Case replication report. (Not many expected George to be present). But as Russ George was coming foward, Chubb closed the 'formal' session (after 15:00) and there were some talk of taking a break before hearing George. Under the circumstances, George made a very 'quickie' presentation (about 5 minutes) with a viewgraph presentation of the helium results. Thereafter, since the session was already closed, followed loose active discussions on the state of CF as mentioned by Jed. Now, I later noticed that George's graph was higher than the helium concentration he mentioned to me earlier. He agreed that it was. It was a later graph. Russ George has posted at his Saturna Technologies website his full presentation of the Case replication effort conducted in July, 1998 with graphs and picutres with credits distributed properly. You can see his cells used in the experiment. It is different than what Case constructed. This was what was to be prented at the APS if given proper opportunity and time rather then the truncated one. I think a viewing and reading of his post is called for by the Vortex membership and others. <> -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 8 07:41:36 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA22950; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 07:38:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 07:38:47 -0700 X-Sender: hheffner mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 05:50:56 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Addendum to the '99 APS Centinneal Conference Cc: Russ George Resent-Message-ID: <"ZRdZm.0.Wc5.tzB3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26811 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:33 PM 4/7/99, Akira Kawasaki wrote: [snip] >Russ George has posted at his Saturna Technologies website his full >presentation of the Case replication effort conducted in July, 1998 with >graphs and picutres with credits distributed properly. You can see his >cells used in the experiment. It is different than what Case >constructed. This was what was to be prented at the APS if given proper >opportunity and time rather then the truncated one. I think a viewing >and reading of his post is called for by the Vortex membership and >others. ><> > >-AK- Thanks for the reference. The 4He results are interesting, especially due to the "highly reproducible and repeatable techniques which readily produce these reactions upon demand." This would make for a good debate on vortcor? Certainly would be a good experiment for others to replicate, if as reproducile as claimed, though the 4He measurements are undoubtedly highly debatable without a number of successful replications. The evidence looks pretty convincing to an amateur like me though, to the extent more independent work appears justified. Government funding for replications should obviously IMHO be made available. Fat chance of that! Unfortunately the article does not deal with excess heat at all, and not the self-sustaining reaction reported by George in the SI interview, so we don't know what parameters changed between the two different experiments. All we know is that the 4He experiment was run at 3 atmospheres and 200 deg. C. I find it interesting that the article does not even mention Case in the abstract or title, and that George almost seems to be claiming the use of Pd catalysts as his invention in the statement: "At the ICCF-7 conference in Vancouver, B.C. (April 98) one paper in particular reported on the observations of energy and helium phenomena when using particular palladium catalysts materials. The connection is of course that hydrogenation catalysts described by Case were as George first suggested almost certainly active because of the nano dimensional palladium particles. The author approached Dr. Les Case at the conference to discuss ideas for work together that effort led to the following paper." The significance of Case being the scientist who discovered the actual working catalysts (not all forms of Pd work) is not given enough credit IMHO, though George does give credit that he uses the "same palladium on carbon material used by Case", and that the experiment is a "variation to Case's experiment." Though Case is mentioned throughout the article, I guess it is just my personal feeling that Case should be given more recognition. A 76 trombone parade would do. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 8 10:36:21 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA12741; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:34:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:34:49 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <5f7167e3.243e427d aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:33:49 EDT Subject: Palladium Cloth? To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: Storms2 ix.netcom.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Reply-To: Tstolper aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"rUK64.0.w63.vYE3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26812 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A question for Ed Storms: Ed, Is it possible to get palladium cloth? Did you ever try that as a cathode? (In looking at your 1993 FUSION TECHNOLOGY article again just recently, I noticed that you did use platinum gauze for the anode.) By the way, are you subscribed to Vortex-L now? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 8 10:52:47 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA18750; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:49:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:49:42 -0700 Message-ID: <370CEC4A.83B34B6C ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 10:50:03 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Addendum to the '99 APS Centinneal Conference References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"a66DI1.0.ua4.smE3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26813 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: April 8, 1999 Horace, Russ is not a subscriber to the Vortex. I am sure he can satisfy your concerns directly at: e-mail: also listed on his website. The catalyst idea is not original to Case alone. And even a single trombone requires resources and efforts often beyond personal means. I certainly haven't seen 2X76 for P&F either. :) -ak- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 8 13:45:23 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA04726; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:43:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:43:56 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:56:03 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Addendum to the '99 APS Centinneal Conference Resent-Message-ID: <"s1Cm83.0.h91.BKH3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26814 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:50 AM 4/8/99, Akira Kawasaki wrote: >April 8, 1999 > >Horace, > >Russ is not a subscriber to the Vortex. I am sure he can satisfy your concerns >directly at: e-mail: also listed on his website. Yes, I assumed so. The subject post of mine included a copy to the above email address. Will be interesting to see if he responds. >The catalyst idea is not original to Case alone. Yes, so true. Catalytic sites in Pd and on Pd surfaces have been a topic for about 10 years. You have beat that drum a number of times yourself, if I recall correctly. However, the idea of an Edisonian type search of a few atmosphere pressure D2 gas interaction with commercial low Pd content carbon based catalysts, much less doing the actual research, I haven't seen any references to that. I was fascinated when I first read about it. I would not have given such an approach much odds of success myself. It is still not completely sure the approach did work. It is still worrisome the convective instability Scott Little found. However, if George's 4He numbers are born out, convective instabilites can not account for that. It looks like George used good control means, so it is really an issue of further replication at this point, I think. >And even a single trombone >requires resources and efforts often beyond personal means. I certainly >haven't seen 2X76 for P&F either. :) So very true, unfortunately. Maybe some day ... Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 8 15:28:57 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA28817; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:26:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:26:39 -0700 Message-ID: <370D2DD1.74B0 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 16:29:38 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Reply-To: Storms2 ix.netcom.com Organization: Energy K. Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0-C-NC320 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Addendum to the '99 APS Centinneal Conference References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hXWlI2.0.B27.VqI3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26815 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > At 10:50 AM 4/8/99, Akira Kawasaki wrote: > >April 8, 1999 > > > >Horace, > > > >Russ is not a subscriber to the Vortex. I am sure he can satisfy your concerns > >directly at: e-mail: also listed on his website. > > Yes, I assumed so. The subject post of mine included a copy to the above > email address. Will be interesting to see if he responds. > > >The catalyst idea is not original to Case alone. > > Yes, so true. Catalytic sites in Pd and on Pd surfaces have been a topic > for about 10 years. The comment that Case’s use of a catalyst was not new because a catalytic enhancement of a nuclear reaction was considered before is mixing apples and oranges. Case uses a chemical catalyst only because the form of the Pd therein has the correct size. Arata showed that finely divided Pd could become nuclear active and Case just changed the source of the fine powder. The nuclear reaction has nothing to do with catalysts of any kind. Indeed, to apply the catalytic model to a nuclear reaction is such an over-simplification to be useless. I would like to suggest that a hard-to-form structure in the Pd-D system has the necessary properties to initiate a fusion-type reaction. Pons and Fleischmann tried to force this structure to form by applying a very high chemical potential. This brute-force technique is difficult because the deuterium can leak out so easily. On the other hand, Arata and Case take advantage of the very high chemical activity of the surface. This region pulls deuterium onto the palladium from the gas phase with the result that this same unique phase can form without difficulty. However, in contrast to the P-F situation, the active region is only a few atoms deep. Very little material would be involved unless the material had a very high surface area. Arata and Case achieve this high surface area by using ultrafine powder, a material which is mostly surface. Therefore, I suggest all of these observations are based on the same physical structure, only the means of achieving the active structure are different. This being the case, the same model for achieving the nuclear reaction would apply, whatever that might be. Regards Ed. Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 8 17:12:57 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27320; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:09:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 17:09:53 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:21:58 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Addendum to the '99 APS Centinneal Conference Cc: Russ George Resent-Message-ID: <"Qg8C91.0.ng6.HLK3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26816 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:29 PM 4/8/99, Edmund Storms wrote: [snip] > Arata and Case >achieve this high surface area by using ultrafine powder, a material >which is mostly surface. Therefore, I suggest all of these >observations are based on the same physical structure, only the means of >achieving the active structure are different. This being the case, the >same model for achieving the nuclear reaction would apply, whatever that >might be. Yes, no implication otherwise intended. The useful thing I meant to imply that Les Case did was to identify a specific source of Pd, or at least Pd plus substrate, that appears to work consistently and thus provides hope for a fully and reliably replicatable experiment that demonstrates cold fusion. If this has happened it is a giant leap for the field. The development of a theoretical model has been greatly impeded by the lack of a reliable experiment. If Case has actually achieved this by an Edisonian search of hydrogenation catalysts with only a fraction (o.4%) of the density of particles and a small fraction of the pressures attained by Arata, I think it is a miracle. Granted, that miracle needs much in the way of verification, and the most interesting parts of the miracle come from Russ George himself, namely confirmation of the production of 4He and the as yet unpublished implied achievment of self sustaining heat (implied in the SI interview) by the statement: "this cylinder will maintain a temperature of about 250C or 400F almost for ever." Since sources of "working" Pd have dried up in the past, e.g. the CETI bead coating material, it strikes me as critical that someone with the resources to do so should buy up a large quantity of "~0.4% by weight Pd on carbon - G75/d" from United Catalyst. BTW, I have received a private email from Russ George correctly pointing out that I have not taken Les Case to task for not referencing catalytic particle like experiments that "long predate him like Scaramuzzi, Menlove, Claytor, Srinivasn, and Arata to mention a few." Maybe someone who has the address will forward this criticism to Les Case? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 8 20:06:33 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA05787; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:04:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:04:36 -0700 Message-ID: <19990409030553.1481.rocketmail web122.yahoomail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:05:53 -0700 (PDT) From: ron kita Subject: May/Discover/Antigravity To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"PjwkH2.0.LQ1.3vM3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26817 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At last in the May issue of Discover magazine,there is an article on Antigravity. Work of Ning Li and Professor Woodward is also featured. The business of antigravity is looking up. Grins, Ron Kita Occassional editor of Antigravity News antigravnews rocketmail.com _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 8 21:00:24 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA23903; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:58:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:58:50 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990408235610.0068d20c pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 23:56:10 -0400 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Chemical catalysis and CF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"HRajL.0.Lr5.whN3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26818 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms writes: Arata showed that finely divided Pd could become nuclear active and Case just changed the source of the fine powder. The nuclear reaction has nothing to do with catalysts of any kind. Indeed, to apply the catalytic model to a nuclear reaction is such an over-simplification to be useless. That may be an overstatement. Some people believe that the nuclear CF reaction may be tied in with ordinary chemical reactions catalyzed at the surface of palladium and other metals. This would be analogous to the way conventional chemical explosions trigger fission bombs. Notoya described theoretical reasons why the formation of D2 may be important. (This is sometimes called recombination, but it should not be confused with the formation of D2O.) Others have observed that when D2 recombination is blocked or moved away from the surface with thiourea, the CF reaction is apparently inhibited. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 9 04:56:33 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA23568; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 04:53:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 04:53:10 -0700 Message-ID: <001401be827f$70bf5f40$914fccd1 default> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Chemical catalysis and CF Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 07:27:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"fw-0X2.0.Am5.ceU3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26819 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed writes: >Edmund Storms writes: > > Arata showed that finely divided Pd could become nuclear active > and Case just changed the source of the fine powder. The > nuclear reaction has nothing to do with catalysts of any kind. > Indeed, to apply the catalytic model to a nuclear reaction is > such an over-simplification to be useless. > >That may be an overstatement. Some people believe that the nuclear CF >reaction may be tied in with ordinary chemical reactions catalyzed at the >surface of palladium and other metals. This would be analogous to the way >conventional chemical explosions trigger fission bombs. Notoya described >theoretical reasons why the formation of D2 may be important. (This is >sometimes called recombination, but it should not be confused with the >formation of D2O.) Others have observed that when D2 recombination is >blocked or moved away from the surface with thiourea, the CF reaction is >apparently inhibited. > >- Jed And Peter Glueck has been promoting the catalytic model for some time, but I think in an analogous sense the effects occur at active sites, as in chemical catalysis, rather than a bulk effect. I think all positions have merit. Ed is probably right in that nuclear reactions are at issue, and these do not directly involve interchanges of electrons, which are involved in chemical reactions such as catalysis. It seems true that chemical means can set the stage for the nuclear reactions and electron clouds may be involved in the aneutronic absorption of the reaction energy as heat instead of hard radiation, or in the partial neutralization of the Coulomb barrier so the reactions can occur. Arata & Zhang make a point of the spillover phenomenon in the propagation of D+ across the surfaces of the Pd nanopowders and this mechanism may well be operative in the Case cell. Spillover is generally classified as a chemical phenomena involved in chemical catalytic reactions. Certainly chemical contamination can disturb the conditions under which the LENR occur. We are at a very complex interface where the distinctions between the atomic, chemical and nuclear worlds blur. We need to be careful of nomenclature and not quarrel over it, or have turf fights. It seems that the complex surfaces of the Pd nanopowders by accident produce a profusion of active sites where the reactions occur. We still do not know what constitutes an active site. It is worth noting that the BLP reaction is clearly catalytic in a chemical sense. The essence, however, is that a H or D atom need only encounter an energy hole ready to receive 27.2 eV for the orbital collapse to occur. I know of nothing to exclude such encounters in the Case cell, nor nothing to encourage them except unknown conditions at the highly fractured surfaces of the nanopowders. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 9 05:05:05 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA25880; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 05:01:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 05:01:34 -0700 Message-ID: <005101be8280$f4a177c0$d34f7dc7 computer> From: "Ed Wall" To: "Vortex" Subject: Ultra-Wide Band Radio Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 08:03:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004E_01BE825F.6C6ADFC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"1ZRqD1.0.IK6.UmU3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26820 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01BE825F.6C6ADFC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.usatoday.com/news/acovfri.htm is a story of a patent battle for new communication technology. The = loser seems to be Livermore labs. Ed Wall New Energy Research Laboratory (603) 226-4822 fax 224-5975 Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03304 www.infinite-energy.com ewall infinite-energy.com ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01BE825F.6C6ADFC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://www.usatoday.com= /news/acovfri.htm
 
is a story of a patent battle for new communication=20 technology.  The loser seems to be Livermore labs.
 
Ed Wall
New Energy Research Laboratory  = (603)=20 226-4822    fax 224-5975
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. = Box=20 2816, Concord, NH 03304
www.infinite-energy.com =   =20 ewall@infinite-energy.com
------=_NextPart_000_004E_01BE825F.6C6ADFC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 9 07:01:36 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA23633; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 07:00:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 07:00:06 -0700 Message-ID: <36BF75340003E0DE chip.esa.lanl.gov> (added by chip.esa.lanl.gov) X-Sender: claytor popmail.esa.lanl.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 08:01:45 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Thomas N. Claytor" Subject: Re: Addendum to the '99 APS Centinneal Conference In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"BYl9e.0.An5.cVW3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26821 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Another materials problem, the G75E catalyst that Case and George used is now no longer available from United Catalyst (probably sold that barrel). Tom. At 03:21 PM 4/8/99 -0900, you wrote: >At 4:29 PM 4/8/99, Edmund Storms wrote: > >[snip] >> Arata and Case >>achieve this high surface area by using ultrafine powder, a material >>which is mostly surface. Therefore, I suggest all of these >>observations are based on the same physical structure, only the means of >>achieving the active structure are different. This being the case, the >>same model for achieving the nuclear reaction would apply, whatever that >>might be. > >Yes, no implication otherwise intended. The useful thing I meant to imply >that Les Case did was to identify a specific source of Pd, or at least Pd >plus substrate, that appears to work consistently and thus provides hope >for a fully and reliably replicatable experiment that demonstrates cold >fusion. If this has happened it is a giant leap for the field. The >development of a theoretical model has been greatly impeded by the lack of >a reliable experiment. If Case has actually achieved this by an Edisonian >search of hydrogenation catalysts with only a fraction (o.4%) of the >density of particles and a small fraction of the pressures attained by >Arata, I think it is a miracle. Granted, that miracle needs much in the >way of verification, and the most interesting parts of the miracle come >from Russ George himself, namely confirmation of the production of 4He and >the as yet unpublished implied achievment of self sustaining heat (implied >in the SI interview) by the statement: "this cylinder will maintain a >temperature of about 250C or 400F almost for ever." > >Since sources of "working" Pd have dried up in the past, e.g. the CETI bead >coating material, it strikes me as critical that someone with the resources >to do so should buy up a large quantity of "~0.4% by weight Pd on carbon - >G75/d" from United Catalyst. > >BTW, I have received a private email from Russ George correctly pointing >out that I have not taken Les Case to task for not referencing catalytic >particle >like experiments that "long predate him like Scaramuzzi, Menlove, Claytor, >Srinivasn, and Arata to mention a few." Maybe someone who has the address >will forward this criticism to Les Case? > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > http://www.nde.lanl.gov/staff/claytor/claytor.htm Thomas N. Claytor Claytor_t_n lanl.gov Los Alamos National Laboratory ESA-MT, MS C914 Los Alamos NM, 87545 505-667-6216 voice 505-665-7176 fax Shipping Address: Thomas N. Claytor Los Alamos National Lab Receiving/SM 30 Bikini Atoll Rd Los Alamos NM 87545 Attention: Drop Point 01S From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 9 07:31:56 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA00407; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 07:30:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 07:30:24 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 05:42:36 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Chemical catalysis and CF Resent-Message-ID: <"wMc_Y3.0.B6.0yW3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26822 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:27 AM 4/9/99, Mike Carrell wrote: [snip] >The essence, however, is that a H or >D atom need only encounter an energy hole ready to receive 27.2 eV for the >orbital collapse to occur. I know of nothing to exclude such encounters in >the Case cell, nor nothing to encourage them except unknown conditions at >the highly fractured surfaces of the nanopowders. The above observation makes me wonder about the possibility of supplying the 27.2 eV holes using semiconductor material. Interesting that carbon is a semiconductor, and that sulfonated plastics, similar to the core of the CETI beads, are proton conductors. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 9 08:06:09 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA11466; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 08:03:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 08:03:52 -0700 Message-ID: <370E171B.7639D887 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 08:05:00 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Vortex-L eskimo.com" Subject: Cold Fusion on NPR today April 9th on radio and web Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"H9wyx.0.4p2.NRX3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26823 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: April 9, 1999 Vortex, To furthur pass along this notice, I foward: -AK- Russ George wrote: > This is a courtesy note to inform you that I will be interviewed on US National > Public Radio on Friday afternoon April 9th. > > I will be discussing the recent findings of helium in cold fusion experiments > as I reported at the recent meeting of the American Physical Society two weeks > ago. That report is on my internet web site at www.rsrch.com/saturna as part of > the pages identified as APS papers. > > The Science Friday radio broadcast on US National Public Radio has an audience > of about 2 million listeners and the interview is available later on the radio > internet web site in REAL AUDIO format at www.sciencefriday.com > > The major topic of this interview is to discuss how the findings now in hand > after ten years of research on cold fusion show this is a real phenomenon and > deserves to be treated as normal science which has great potential for the > world of science and technology. If you can send an e-mail message to the host > of the radio program supporting the idea that cold fusion deserves to be > treated like real science and not a joke you can perhaps help greatly in this > effort. You might send something like the following brief note to > > Ira Flatow iflatow stn2.com > Science Friday > US National Public Radio > > As a scientist with experience in nuclear sciences I find the evidence reported > on cold fusion including the evidence for helium of your guest Russ George > should convince the scientific community that cold fusion is indeed real and > has great potential for mankind. This topic should be treated as normal and > even an important field of science and work like that of Russ and many others > in the field ought to receive support as basic science. The idea that this > discovery and the scientist working in this field is not real and that it is > treated by some scientists with ridicule as junk science should stop. > > If you can send this kind of supportive note to the radio show before it is > broadcast tomorrow afternoon at 2pm New York City time your comments might be > read on the broadcast. > > Thanks for your help and support in this effort. > > Russ George > Palo Alto, CA > www.rsrch.com/saturna From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 9 08:09:53 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA18696; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 08:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 08:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <370E16DA.36C9 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 09:03:58 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Reply-To: Storms2 ix.netcom.com Organization: Energy K. Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0-C-NC320 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chemical catalysis and CF References: <3.0.1.32.19990408235610.0068d20c pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Akrdx1.0.1a4.IUX3t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26824 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Edmund Storms writes: > . > Indeed, to apply the catalytic model to a nuclear reaction is > such an over-simplification to be useless. > > That may be an overstatement. Some people believe that the nuclear CF > reaction may be tied in with ordinary chemical reactions catalyzed at the > surface of palladium and other metals. This would be analogous to the way > conventional chemical explosions trigger fission bombs. Notoya described > theoretical reasons why the formation of D2 may be important. (This is > sometimes called recombination, but it should not be confused with the > formation of D2O.) Others have observed that when D2 recombination is > blocked or moved away from the surface with thiourea, the CF reaction is > apparently inhibited. > > - Jed Jed, Too many people attempt to provide a model based on their own measurements or background.I believe for an explanation to be useful it must consider the big picture. For example, the claim that recombination is important based on the effect of thiourea makes no sense. Thiourea has many other effects besides blocking recombination. It changes the chemistry of the surface, it changes the deuterium content in the surface and it can add sulfur to the surface. Any one of these effects, or others, could be the critical variable. In addition, recombination does not occur in the Case or Arata cells yet a nuclear reaction is produced. The question is, what is common between these conditions and that in the P-F environment? Or are we to believe that each condition is different yet each can initiate a nuclear reaction? Horace, By the way, the spillover idea applies to the high activity of the D ions, created at the container surface by electrolysis. This high activity is applied to the fine powder as so called spillover. This activity is higher than that provided by the ambient gas and is claimed to give the extra boost needed to start the process. The Case work shows that this boost is not necessary and spillover is not important. Ed. Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 9 10:02:23 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA13341; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:58:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:58:38 -0700 From: aki ix.netcom.com Message-ID: <370E312C.A3E ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 09:56:12 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: NPR interview of Russ George Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BtA0W3.0.NG3.z6Z3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26825 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: April 9, 1999 Vortex, A check on the National Public Radio website revealed scheduling details of the interview. Also Tapes and transcripts are available for ordering. The NPR 'Science Friday' is a weekly Two Hour science program conducted by Ira Flatow. The program airing is scheduled for Friday, 2 to 4 PM ET (EDT?). You should check out for local airing station and time. For the week of April 9, 1999, the first hour is on 'Lymne Disease'. The second hour is divided into two parts. One is on 'Online Decency' and then, 'Cold Fusion'. Always the last. :) Listener call in can be made: 1-800 989-8255 After the program airs, tapes and transcripts can be purchased. NPR websites: <> for general NPR programming layout. <> for Science Friday programming layout. <> for friday program scheduling. <> For tapes ($23.70) and transcripts ($18.70) -ak- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 9 11:29:41 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA12181; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 11:25:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 11:25:30 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:37:41 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Speculation on sulfonated polystyrene membranes Resent-Message-ID: <"Ve0u.0.F-2.QOa3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26826 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An Edisonian type attack on CF and/or BLP type suborbital formation processes might be made using sulfonated polystyrene membranes, or other proton conducting or semiconducting membranes or thin material. One approach is simply to impose such material across an electrolytic cell, singly, or layered, and look for excess heat, LENR, or other signatures there. Another approach might involve more or less a reverse of the CETI bead process, i.e. applying a sulfonated polystyrene proton conducting membrane over the surface of a Pd electrode. As with the CETI beads, this might cause a separation problem. It may be feasible to alternate current direction periodically to avoid excessive pressure buildup, yet still obtain an effect. Use of a high resistance proton or hole conducting material would permit and or require the use of much larger potentials than those in conventional electrolytic cells. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 9 12:02:21 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA28213; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 11:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 11:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:59:30 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: More speculation on electron hole or proton conductors Resent-Message-ID: <"HnWfp2.0.ku6.Xoa3t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26827 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Another mode of operation might be liquid/conductor/gas, using a very high voltage. The gas side of the conducting membrane would be H2, and the conducting material would be roughed up on the gas side, the positive side, to create points with high field gradients and coronal discharges, with the intent of forming proton condensates. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 9 12:49:55 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02443; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 12:45:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 12:45:17 -0700 X-Acceptable-Use-Policy: http://www.cwnet.com/aup.html Message-ID: <370DF64A.DEE82D38 cwnet.com> Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 12:45:21 +0000 From: Jones Beene Reply-To: jonesb9 cwnet.com Organization: IdeaWorks Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Speculation on sulfonated polystyrene membranes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"B8MzE.0.1c.DZb3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26828 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > An Edisonian type attack on CF and/or BLP type suborbital formation > processes might be made using sulfonated polystyrene membranes, or other > proton conducting or semiconducting membranes or thin material. One > approach is simply to impose such material across an electrolytic cell, > singly, or layered, and look for excess heat, LENR, or other signatures > there. Actually, as far as the polymers go, this might even be a "garage" level experiment. Most plastics, with the exception of polyethylene and to a lesser extent PVC are indeed good proton conductors at room temperature. Unfortunately, the most readily available films, like saran wrap, are oriented PE so no help there. A good choice for a start might be the acrylic films sold for storm window applications. I'm not sure but I believe polysulfone, a highly heat tolerant material, was used in the CETI beads, rather than sulfonated polystyrene. Most polystyrene-based material turns to a goopy glue at relatively low temperatures. Unfortunately, for the garage experimenter, these materials are very good dielectrics. I think I remember reading from Scott Littles web site that he ran precise calorometer reading on passing H2 through a paladium membrane that was designed as a hydrogen purifier and found no excess heat. Perhaps that would also eliminate a straight-up excess heat test. But many other possibilites present themselves.... Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 9 12:55:45 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA05465; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 12:51:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 12:51:57 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 09:49:39 -1000 Subject: Re: Ultra-Wide Band Radio From: "Rick Monteverde" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <199904091608.SM00197 [206.127.240.158]> Resent-Message-ID: <"qMasx3.0.IL1.Tfb3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26829 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ed - >http://www.usatoday.com/news/acovfri.htm > > >is a story of a patent battle for new communication technology. The loser >seems to be Livermore labs. > >Ed Wall >New Energy Research Laboratory (603) 226-4822 fax 224-5975 >Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03304 >www.infinite-energy.com >ewall infinite-energy.com What the heck is "pulsed radio energy" as "not radio waves"? (That's probably be "science reporter" conversion of information -> garbage). Very very interesting. And if "the aliens" use it, then as far as SETI is concerned, what would make theor radio signals look any different from static? Lots of questions... - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 9 13:16:13 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA14574; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 13:13:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 13:13:42 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990409160547.00fc8100 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 16:05:47 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Quinney Subject: Re: Ultra-Wide Band Radio In-Reply-To: <199904091608.SM00197 [206.127.240.158]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"9at0C.0.eZ3.szb3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26830 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:49 AM 12/31/98 -1000, Rick wrote: >Ed - > >>http://www.usatoday.com/news/acovfri.htm >> >> >>is a story of a patent battle for new communication technology. The loser >>seems to be Livermore labs. >> >>Ed Wall > > >What the heck is "pulsed radio energy" as "not radio waves"? (That's >probably be "science reporter" conversion of information -> garbage). > >Very very interesting. > >And if "the aliens" use it, then as far as SETI is concerned, what would >make theor radio signals look any different from static? Lots of >questions... > Rick, And then we naturally question how much better it will work with the antenna buried-- as per the recent Felis Catus posting.. (Some say that the "aliens" have underground bases.. Maybe we've been aiming our CETI antennas in the wrong direction? :) Colin Quinney From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 9 15:10:23 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA02308; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:06:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:06:00 -0700 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199904092205.RAA26615 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Ultra-Wide Band Radio In-Reply-To: <199904091608.SM00197 [206.127.240.158]> from Rick Monteverde at "Dec 31, 98 09:49:39 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 17:05:57 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HHGTm3.0.-Z.7dd3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26831 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > >http://www.usatoday.com/news/acovfri.htm > > What the heck is "pulsed radio energy" as "not radio waves"? (That's > probably be "science reporter" conversion of information -> garbage). I suppose he meant non-continuous radio waves. Don Lancaster has a nice short introduction to pulsed radio in the latest Electronics Now magazine. He shows first, using Fourier's theory, that you can create a pulse by the addition of various harmonics -- therefore a pulse carries energy in a wide spectrum. Since the spectrum is broad, you don't need tuned circuits. Also, since the energy is spread, loss of some harmonics isn't fatal since there is redundancy in the remaining harmonics to recover the existence of the pulse. And I think it is somewhat immune to noise, since noise in a wide band adds more slowly than coherent signals -- but I'll have to think more about this with regard to pulsed radio. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 651-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 9 21:59:12 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA19515; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 21:56:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 21:56:14 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 20:08:22 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Speculation on sulfonated polystyrene membranes Resent-Message-ID: <"3uxI71.0.nm4.kdj3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26832 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:45 AM 4/9/99, Jones Beene wrote: [snip] >Unfortunately, for the garage experimenter, these materials are very good >dielectrics. [snip] Some free association... Being good dielectrics is the good aspect of the approach, that the resistance is high and the current is (hopefully) all protons. It is an opportunity to drive the voltage way up without wasting current. There should still be a two layer interface, the two atom thick electrode-electrolyte boundary, but its nature should be very different due to the lack of electron tunneling to and from a conductor across the interface. The electrons will have to carried away strictly by OH- diffusion, and that may be a very limiting process. However, Bockris shows that in a standard electrolytic cell, in the majority of the space between electrodes, where the gradient is very small, current is maintained almost entirely by diffusion. Most all of the potential drop is right near the electrode surfaces in a typical electrolytic cell. Perhaps you saw the AIP newsletter some months back that reported that electrolyte conduction has been found to be carried out not just by heavy ion diffusion, as previously thought, but also by electron current. Conduction in the proton conductor is hopefully at least partially gradient based, not mostly diffusion based, and entirely proton based. This should improve the excess heat signal to noise ratio, and possibly permit more precise control of proton-phonon energy exchanges within the proton conductor, by use of large gradients. The mechanics of proton conducting membranes in electrolytic cells should be a subject of substantial interest in its own right. Many nifty applications could be dreamed up, and some exist now. A literature search by a qualified chemist would be in order for this kind of project. There should be no evolved H2 gas on the cathode side of a membrane because the primary source of electrons is OH- radicals, which should tend to instantly recombine with any freed protons to form water. (My guess.) If true, this is a very good reason to bind a layer of such material to a Pd cathode surface of a CF cell, to avoid having to account for recombination, because almost no H2 gas should be evolved at the cathode. Similarly, at the anode side of a membrane, if exposed to a liquid phase electrolyte, recombination should be nearly complete there because the only way for the protons to obtain the negative charge is from ions with which the proton is likely to combine. The media shift between proton adsorbers and proton conductors has its own complexities analytically, as well as difficulties maintaining the bond. A strong physical bond at an etched surface boundary might be needed to avoid separation, if that can be avoided at all. An interesting interface is a gas phase anode side of a membrane, where charge is conducted by coronal discharges and ion migration in gas phase. If protons can be formed into condensates at the ends of proton conducting tendrils, and the stimulated by a fast moving particle, fusion might result. If a very good proton conductor can be found, it should greatly improve electrolysis efficiency due to the inherent control of bubble formation on the cathode side of the membrane. The main problem for various applications is finding a very good, i.e. very low proton resistance, proton conductor. That isn't necessarily the case for LENR research, though, where achieving a high gradient at low energy cost might be of use. The main objective for LENR research is achieving a high signal to noise ratio, high reproducibility, and a definitive experiment. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 10 00:18:34 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA10477; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:15:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:15:27 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 03:14:34 EDT Subject: H2K: Experimental Protocol To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"i6sqn.0.dZ2.Fgl3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26833 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Back last May 14, 1998 Frank wrote re: a post by Horace Heffner: Subj: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Date: 98-05-14 01:17:29 EDT From: fstenger interlaced.net (Francis J. Stenger) Reply-to: vortex-l@eskimo.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Hey, Vince, I don't mean to butt in on your experiment protocol, but I tend to go along with Horace in questioning this quest for high temperature right now. Horace wrote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Why not simply drop the voltage? "Optimum" operating conditions are not at this point conditions which produce the most heat, but rather conditions which produce the best signal/noise ratio. You want the most reliable H2 vs H2 + K signal. By operating too hot you are reducing reliability, possibly introducing chemical reactions with the quartz or electrodes, and increasing convection in the vicinity of the tube. You thus increase the data variablilty and reduce the signal to noise ratio. When you do the graphs of power range, or input voltage the ratio of H2 temperature to H2 + K temperature across the power or input voltage range might tell you if there is any return for running at a higher power range. In a nice glow discharge, I assumed it was the ionic and electrical effects in the tube that do the goodies to generate the monoatomic hydrogen. Isn't that the idea - then to make sure you have a copius quantity of H available at the K surface and/or with the K ions in the gas. I wouldn't think the raw thermal temperature your going to see in this tube is the important player, is it? Getting a nice stable glow discharge at a MINIMUM voltage and power would buy you cheaper components for your filtered DC supply and would be easier on the hardware. I'm assuming that you will eventually need some kind of crude calorimeter to work along with your filtered DC power measurement. It just seems that "cooler is better". Frank Stenger -------------------------end of post on 5-19-98------------------------ Yes, it's now almost a year later and I tend to agree with the above. I have been collecting all the old posts and getting them into hard copy and this one got me thinking. Now that I have a fairly accurate way of measuring input power ( AC this round ) I will try to run at a minimum power to sustain a discharge in the tube. as one of the experimental series. I did notice last year that the degrees per watt dropped off dramatically at the higher temperatures due to greater convection with the uninsulated tube. Thanks Horace and Frank for your suggestion. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 10 04:25:18 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA27307; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 04:24:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 04:24:32 -0700 Message-Id: <199904101119.HAA00511 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Great NPR program on cold fusion! Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 07:23:43 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"otmmA1.0.Xg6.lJp3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26834 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortexians, Bravo for the NPR program on cold fusion yesterday (4/9/99) on Science Friday! Russ George and Michael Schaffer --AND especially Ira Flatow -- are to be complimented on one of the best NPR cold fusion programs ever! Russ is to be congratulated for getting a world-class cold fusion experiment clearly described for a national audience, although I wish he had uttered Les Case's name rather than referring to "an experiment by an east coast scientist." Michael Schaffer, an IE reader, is to be congratulated for his world-class openmindedness in considering Russ's data. The fact that it was clearly stated that he works at General Atomics on hot fusion made his presence on the program all the more significant. I was also pleased with Ira's statement that no critic was willing to come on the program. Good! At long last a standard has been set whereby discussions of cold fusion do not require comment from people such as Douglas Morrison or Huizenga, who have not given a minute's worth of consideration to the latest experiments in cold fusion. I spoke to Les Case yesterday. He has made a significant advance with a dewar cell just received back from the welder (modified with proprietary design) such that what used to require 150 watts to maintain a 200C catalyst temperature has been reduced to 45 watts. He thinks he can knock another 10 watts off that 45. This cell, one of two new designs -- the other one is still being built -- may well self-sustain when 500 grams of active catalyst are used in it within the next ten days or so. Les said that if the 500 gm catalyst generates 0.1 W/gm it will likely self-sustain and if it generated 0.2W/gm that will be 50 W gravy. Ira Flatow will then be able to have an even more earth shattering program. Since we live in hilly Bow, New Hampshire, I had to drive to the top of 900 foot Wood Hill in order to pick up the signal from Boston's WBUR 90.1 FM, which is about 70 miles away -- we could bearely hear the signal near the lab. Concord, NH has an NPR affiliate -- WEVO -- but that station does not see fit to broadcast Science Friday :( Best wishes, Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 10 05:11:31 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA07167; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 05:10:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 05:10:32 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990410121717.015699a4 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 08:17:17 -0400 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Are people of any use to the Universe? Resent-Message-ID: <"J9QdA1.0.ql1.u-p3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26835 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Do ordinary people serve a purpose to the universe in such a way that it's good to have lots of them around? I amuse myself with the idea that without people, would the universe continue to expand? On a less profound level, I kind of like the fact that we have such a choice and variety of consumer items now. The higher being who wants the pogrom thing probably knows. I'd like to ask this higher being as much (not to mention why the pogrom thing is a good idea). Could someone point him/her out to me? Regards; Dennis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 10 09:55:28 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA30427; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 09:52:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 09:52:04 -0700 From: aki ix.netcom.com Message-ID: <370F827D.868E6FDD ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 09:55:25 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Great NPR program on cold fusion! References: <199904101119.HAA00511 mercury.mv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DEyj01.0.LR7.p6u3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26836 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: April 10, 1999 'Gene, You are lucky. Around the So. Cal. region, not one station carrying NPR news carries the Science Friday program. I'll see if the program can be pcked up on Real Audio on Monday or get the tape or transcript. Michael Schaeffer, I believe, is one of several people, Nobelists among them, who Russ consulted in discussing and polish writing up his Case replication experiment report. -AK- E.F. Mallove wrote: > Dear Vortexians, > > Bravo for the NPR program on cold fusion yesterday (4/9/99) on Science > Friday! > > Russ George and Michael Schaffer --AND especially Ira Flatow -- are to be > complimented on one of the best NPR cold fusion programs ever! Russ is > to be congratulated for getting a world-class cold fusion experiment > clearly described for a national audience, although I wish he had uttered > Les Case's name rather than referring to "an experiment by an east coast > scientist." Michael Schaffer, an IE reader, is to be congratulated for > his world-class openmindedness in considering Russ's data. The fact that > it was clearly stated that he works at General Atomics on hot fusion made > his presence on the program all the more significant. > > I was also pleased with Ira's statement that no critic was willing to > come on the program. Good! At long last a standard has been set whereby > discussions of cold fusion do not require comment from people such as > Douglas Morrison or Huizenga, who have not given a minute's worth of > consideration to the latest experiments in cold fusion. > > I spoke to Les Case yesterday. He has made a significant advance with a > dewar cell just received back from the welder (modified with proprietary > design) such that what used to require 150 watts to maintain a 200C > catalyst temperature has been reduced to 45 watts. He thinks he can > knock another 10 watts off that 45. This cell, one of two new designs -- > the other one is still being built -- may well self-sustain when 500 > grams of active catalyst are used in it within the next ten days or so. > Les said that if the 500 gm catalyst generates 0.1 W/gm it will likely > self-sustain and if it generated 0.2W/gm that will be 50 W gravy. Ira > Flatow will then be able to have an even more earth shattering program. > > Since we live in hilly Bow, New Hampshire, I had to drive to the top of > 900 foot Wood Hill in order to pick up the signal from Boston's WBUR 90.1 > FM, which is about 70 miles away -- we could bearely hear the signal near > the lab. Concord, NH has an NPR affiliate -- WEVO -- but that station > does not see fit to broadcast Science Friday :( > > Best wishes, > > Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief > Infinite Energy Magazine > Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. > P.O. Box 2816 > Concord, NH 03302-2816 > > Ph: 603-228-4516 > Fax: 603-224-5975 > > editor infinite-energy.com > www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 10 10:56:26 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA14129; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 10:55:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 10:55:09 -0700 X-Acceptable-Use-Policy: http://www.cwnet.com/aup.html Message-ID: <370F2DED.F4C370F0 cwnet.com> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 10:54:39 +0000 From: Jones Beene Reply-To: jonesb9 cwnet.com Organization: IdeaWorks Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Speculation on proton membranes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4fInb3.0.hS3.z1v3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26837 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > Perhaps you saw the AIP newsletter some months back that reported that > electrolyte conduction has been found to be carried out not just by heavy > ion diffusion, as previously thought, but also by electron current. > Conduction in the proton conductor is hopefully at least partially gradient > based, not mostly diffusion based, and entirely proton based. This should > improve the excess heat signal to noise ratio, and possibly permit more > precise control of proton-phonon energy exchanges within the proton > conductor, by use of large gradients. I will try to find this article, as I have always been a little unclear about the precise nano-mechanics of proton conduction. One of my earliest engineering jobs out of college years ago was for a company that manufactured the protective clothing for nuclear plants, particularly Rocky Flats near Denver which had a tritium contamination problem. In materials tests, there seemed to be little actual logic about any one materials ability to contain hydrogen, and especially so with metals. For instance, H will flow through the walls of cetain cast irons like a breeze through a screen door. But alloy in just a few percent of certain (usually light) metals and you get good containment. Of course, books have been written on this... even so, I'm not sure every minutae of the phenomenon is completely undertsood. Thanks...I'll try to track down the latest info, Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 10 13:23:46 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA14834; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 13:22:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 13:22:40 -0700 Message-ID: <005601be838f$c829d7e0$304accd1 default> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Ultra Wide Band Radio Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 16:21:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"OVOQt2.0.ed3.FCx3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26838 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I looked at the article cited by Ed. It looks like a variation on spread-spectrum transmission technology, which has indeed been around for decades. Originally a classified military technique, the advent of very high speed processors has made it a fairly common technique. The basic idea is to take an information stream and modulate it with a very wideband pseudorandom sequence. Its radiated bandwidth will be large in comparison with the signal, but it can be at low level. The radiated signal appears as noise to any receiver that is not equipped to perform autocorrelation on the specific pseudorandom sequence. Receivers so equipped are acutely sensitive to this stream and all other signals, including natural noise, are suppressed. The technique is advantageous for covert communications, for the signal appears as a slight increase in background noise to all but the decoding receiver. This method is used now by some mobile phones. For civilian use, the code sequences don't have to be very long to be effective. As for the cited intereferences, I surmise that the inventor realized that the usual structures of tuned circuits, etc., standard with narrowband transmission technology, could simply be bypassed by very fast solid state circuits generating and autocorrelating code sequences. Such devices would be very compact and cheap to manufacture and could find their way into communications and short range radar and proximity detection applications. And by using difference coding sequences, a multitude of such devices could share the same physical and spectrum space without mutual interference and regulation by the FCC. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 10 14:53:38 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA11338; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 14:51:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 14:51:09 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990410215730.015f18f4 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 17:57:30 -0400 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: Machiavellian social resistance (skepticism) to unconventional wisdom Resent-Message-ID: <"989WC3.0.ym2.BVy3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26839 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:06 AM 4/7/99 -0400, you wrote: >Quite the point. But we're not writing about you but of the nature of >social resistance when consensus reality (as a meme) is challenged. I feel the point of this being that doubt (uncertainty seems more appropriate) is a wrong response by society and should be corrected if possible. >[snip] > >> >*From a paper produced by Ingo Swann for the Intelligence >> >Community (aka the CIA) on Social Resistance to Psi. >> >> Let me guess, this is required reading at CIA U. What message will the >> average cadet get from this? Would it be something like: >> >> 1. Doubt is intelligent >> >> 2. Doubters get respect and control of situations. >> >> 3. Let's see... debunk... skepticism... Machiavelli... pogrom... >> >> 4. Someone somewhere who apparently transcends time and space wants this >> POGROM thing... >> >> Conclusion of average CIA wannabe - Gee this must be the recommended and >> approved Modus Operandi when encountering similar situations in the field... >> >> Dennis >> > >Not the point at all. Rather that society acts to protect its memes as if to doubt >in anything that is different. This is the unspoken logic of institutions (church, government, >AMA, American Bar Association, American Society for the Advancement of Science... >whatever... you name it). > >This paper was not prepared for CIA staff or line below administration. >It certainly was not prepared for CIA wannabes. > >It was used as the basis for the CIA admission that they, the Intelligence Community, >was and had long been involved in "psychic" espionage and as a means of publically >discounting the public revelations of former "Stargate" remote viewer David >Morehouse who blew the whistle. The last statement of an entity wanting the pogrom executed intentionally is curious. Why is it there? Unless this entity is in fact known to exist, it is pure speculation. The paper is of such length and complexity, I question whether it was placed there with the intent of giving credibility, and approval, to the pogrom concept for those whose reading skills are of lower levels. Close scrutiny will reveal an innocuous document however. If such an entity does exist, why does he not wished to be identified? >But, hey, I thought "we" were on the same said. I get a little paranoid when >someone starts to polarize on my messages and when my posts to a list are >censored. It causes me to question whether there is some hidden agenda here >on this list relative to censorship of perception. What's here on this list that we're >not to see? > >This does not seem to be the physics of love at all, but the physics of supression. Sorry for giving this impression. I felt strongly that while it maybe true someone, somewhere, doesn't wish unconventional views to be identified and developed, this in no way suggests that such a desire is in anyway a good thing. In fact, given the latest satellite evidence of global warming and its' manmade causes (physicsweb.org - what's new) suppression of such views which will stop or reverse global warming, can be legally challenged under proper review of National Security guidelines. Government officials who propagate such suppression, risk administrative disciplinary action. Regards; Dennis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 10 15:05:26 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA28863; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 15:04:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 15:04:39 -0700 Message-Id: <199904102200.SAA01836 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Gene on Laura Lee tonight - 9- 12 Pacific Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 18:03:52 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"HXYTp1.0.u27.thy3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26841 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortexians: Gene Mallove will be Laura Lee's guest 9- 12 pm Pacific Time (12-3 am eastern). And I have to get up early tomorrow a.m. for four days of travel! Am I a fanatic or what? Gene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 10 15:07:19 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA28825; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 15:04:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 15:04:37 -0700 Message-Id: <199904102200.SAA01829 mercury.mv.net> Subject: The travels of the Amazing Randi Date: Sat, 10 Apr 99 18:03:50 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"3ygF72.0.J27.rhy3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26840 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The following item appears in Meier Yedid's Magic Times website today, at: http://www.magictimes.com/news-hdl.htm ====== The Amazing Randi is being sued for five million dollars in Fort Lauderdale federal court by the mother of 16-year-old psychic Maie Takahashi. It seems that Randi exposed Takahashi as a fake on Japanese TV in 1996 and her mother is claiming that the exposure destroyed her daughter's career and ruined her earnings potential.(4/9) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 10 17:04:59 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA28244; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 17:01:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 17:01:20 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990411000745.015fa838 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:07:45 -0400 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: Machiavellian social resistance (skepticism) tounconventional wisdom Cc: vortex-L eskimo.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA28206 Resent-Message-ID: <"mSPYt2.0.3v6.FP-3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26842 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 05:48 PM 4/10/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hey, Dennis, > Boy, are you catching it !!!! No problemo, Joe. > Remember, too, that sometimes the appearance of doubt is really a >mask for fear of the unknown...one of man's greatest fears. Agreed, doubt suggests an emotional distrust whereas uncertainty is defined as insufficient information so that the subject cannot be surely known. Doubt is emotional, uncertainty is logic based. > There are many pros and cons about global warming, and they can be >twisted easily into confusion by the spinmasters. Global warming is also >partly determined by the number of icebergs that break off the glaciers >each year. Right now the rate is about 1/3 less than 20 years ago. The references are from www.physicsweb.org previous 'What's New' articles - they have a one week trial membership. BTW. A certain most honored Professor stated that the North Pole icecap is melting twice as fast as the South Pole icecap because most of the powerplants and vehicles are in the Northern Hemisphere. ______________________________________________________________________________ Antarctic glaciers feel the heat [Friday July 24] The Pine Island Glacier in West Antarctica is shrinking at a startling rate according to satellite observations. And the "hinge-point" of the glacier is retreating at 1.2 km per year according to Eric Rignot of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California. Geophysicists believe that the glacier is theoretically unstable and that the retreat could become irreversible. Many believe that such an event would be strong evidence for climatic change. Rignot cautions that the retreat he has observed might be a short-lived phenomenon, but adds it could still have implications for the stability of ice-sheets along the entire Antarctic coastline (Science 281 549). Rignot used radar data taken between 1992 and 1996 by two European satellites, ERS-1 and ERS-2, to generate interference patterns that are sensitive to small vertical movements. These patterns provide information on the velocity of the ice - how fast it is creeping towards the bay - and the hinge point - the position on the glacier at which ice moves from resting on the bay bed to ice floating on the water. Recent measurements have suggested that the Pine Island glacier is melting at a much faster rate than other large ice shelves in the Antarctic. Researchers believed this was being caused by an influx of warm water from the Southern Pacific Ocean. Rignot's latest work concludes that 76 ± 2 km3 of ice is being discharged into the bay each year, while only 71 ± 7 km3 is replenished from the Antarctic interior - which indicates >>>>>>>>>> that the glacier is shrinking at a startling rate. If this data does herald the start of collapse for the Antarctic ice sheet, water levels could rise by more than 5 m within a couple of centuries. _______________________________________________________________________________ > Personally, I believe the destruction of the forests and the biosphere >(our main source of oxygen replenishment) is a far greater threat than the >amount of CO2 that man emits annually. Agreed, deforestation is a major problem also contributing to CO2 level increases, however: _______________________________________________________________________________ Global warming confirmed from space [Friday August 14] Differences in the temperature of the earth's atmosphere as measured by satellites and ground-based instruments have puzzled scientists for years, and caused some politicians to doubt the reality of global warming. Now, however, calculations by Frank Wentz and Matthias Schabel of Remote Sensing Systems in California have shown that small decays in >>>>>>>>>> the orbit of satellites may have caused the discrepancy (Nature 394 661). Previously satellite measurements have suggested that the atmosphere was cooling at 0.05 Kelvin per decade, while ground-based instruments showed an increase of 0.13 Kelvin per decade. However, as polar satellites orbit the Earth, they suffer atmospheric drag. The thickness and height of the Earth's atmosphere is dependent on the sun's solar activity. When solar activity is at a maximum, ultraviolet rays from the sun heat the upper atmosphere. This causes the atmosphere to expand outwards, which increases the drag experienced by satellites. Wentz and Schabel calculated that this caused the orbits of polar satellites operated by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) in the US to decay by 1.2 km per year over a 17 year period. They also discovered that the Microwave Sounding Unit (MSU) used to measure the troposphere temperature >>>>>>>>>> profile is very sensitive to height fluctuations. By developing a correction factor for the instrument, they were able to re-evaluate the satellite data. They found that the instrument now measured a temperature rise of 0.07 Kelvin per decade instead of the previously reported fall. This new figure is similar to results predicted by computer climate models and explains why the satellites had seen increased cooling in the troposphere during periods of increased solar activity in 1979-83 and 1989-92. Humans are the cause of climate change [Thursday November 26] The controversy over the relative contributions of greenhouse gas emissions and solar activity to global warming appears to have been resolved. Tom Wigley, Richard Smith and Benjamin Santer in the US contrasted global meteorological temperature data gathered over the past 115 years with results from two leading computer models. They found that the best fit to the data occurred when this century's 0.6 C global temperature rise is assumed to >>>>>>>>>> have been caused mainly by mankind's output of greenhouse gases (Science 282 1676). The team looked in particular for 'lag time' effects in the data. For example, the eruption of Mt Pinatubo in the Philippines in 1991 lowered the global temperature by 0.3 C in the following year as fine aerosols of volcanic ash and sulphuric acid caused a cooling effect. However, the team believes that volcanic eruptions have a short lived effect on the long-term temperature. They therefore looked at two possible variables that could adjust climate - greenhouse gases and changes in the sun's output. Wigley and colleagues ran the two independent computer models four times, each time with a different set of parameters. In the first data set, they created a world in which greenhouse gases remained constant over 100 years and changes in solar output do not affect the climate. In the second set they assumed that the Earth's climate can be affected by solar output - called solar forcing - but greenhouse gases remain constant. The third set had no solar output, but greenhouse gases rise over time. Finally the fourth set had a mixture of both solar forcing and rising levels of greenhouse gases. They first found that there was wide discrepancies between the output of both computer models and the experimental data in the first data set. This indicated that some mechanism was increasing the global temperature this century. Then they found that if solar heating was solely responsible for climate change, the Earth's climate would have to be six times more sensitive to solar heating than realistic estimates suggest. Wigley, Smith and Santer concluded that unlike a paper published in Physical Review Letters this week (see CERN plans global-warming >>>>>>>>>> experiment), the only model that matched both simulation and experimental data sets was the one containing a strong greenhouse gas effect and a small amount of solar heating. According to Wigley: "These results provide another important piece in the jigsaw puzzle of climate change, >>>>>>>>>> strengthening yet further our confidence that there has been a discernible human influence on climate. Furthermore, they provide additional evidence that the models used to make projections of future climate change are realistic." ________________________________________________________________________________ > I have opined and I am ready for the usual atomic blast of certain >repliers. May God help me !!! > Here's a truth for you: "An ignorant conviction is impregnable" I hope the above data will weaken the impregnability. If anyone finds more recent evidence to the contrary, please let us know. Regards; Dennis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 10 17:53:21 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA08776; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 17:52:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 17:52:03 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990411005838.015d7c80 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:58:38 -0400 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: Are people of any use to the Universe? Cc: svpvril egroups.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Ys2eS3.0.-82.o8_3t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26843 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:03 PM 4/10/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hmmm....man is so vain to think that God, who created the entire universe >and maybe a million more, has a lot of time to spend worrying about how one >of his infinitesimally small experiments is doing. > I thank God for making me and I don't ask him for more. He gave me a brain >to take care of myself, and he gave me a brother for those times when I >cannot. The people of Kosovo are my brothers and they cannot at the moment. > If the universe is both orderly and chaotic, then why can't man be >brilliantly stupid ?......paradox of one space/time event. > Example; Nuclear war between countries is like two men in a bathtub >having a handgrenade fight. We build fantastic killing machines in the name >of humanity and religion. Brilliant and ? I have faith that man has purpose and is good (if made aware enough - eg. you can't fool the space time fabric, it never forgets, and it will catch up to you). Those who want to believe that man is intrinsically evil and deserves to die please raise your hand. If the world population could be made aware of the circumstances we will likely face in the near future, preparation for extreme environment conditions will replace acts of war. Besides, the idea I brought up was: Anyways, I was considering human psychological and physiological structure in terms of energy fields. The complexity is such that they probably represent very high frequency energy patterns. Compared to inert interstellar objects, life forms probably have a much greater energy density. At the very least, we must be giving the universe texture, therefore greater complexity, therefore increased internal energy pressure? I therefore DOUBT that a higher level being would want anything to happen that might make his backyard shrink or be any less interesting. It almost seems as if you want or need the nature and soul of man to be unworthy and insignificant Joe. Is there some reason for you to require this perception to be true in your mind Joe? Regards; Dennis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 10 20:32:03 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA10439; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:28:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:28:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3710168A.CCE106CE erols.com> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 23:27:11 -0400 From: Andrew Meulenberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L Subject: Re: Suborbital Electron Theory and CF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1562F3A3336E466A93530E2D" Resent-Message-ID: <"omCd22.0.yY2.gR14t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26844 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --------------1562F3A3336E466A93530E2D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Tom Tstolper; I was perhaps too cryptic in my comments when I wrote in a message Dated: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 15:12:25 -0500: >All bound electrons radiate (according to EM theory). >Only those that are able to fall to lower orbitals can "emit" a photon. I am drawing a distinction between two types of event. Radiation, in my mind, is the moving away of electric and magnetic fields from a source. However, these fields do not necessarily "escape." Emission is when the radiation escapes. To illustrate: A stationary electron is generally considered to have a radially- symmetric fixed electric field about it. In motion, the electric field seems to move rigidly along with it. However, with such motion, a magnetic field is also observed. This magnetic field can be considered to be the relativistic distortion of a semi-rigid electric field. While this picture is useful, I believe that it is more accurate to consider the fields to be propagating out at the speed of light - only to be nulled (by destructive interference) at great distances from the electron. (Remember that the phase velocities are not limited by the speed of light.) The nulled far-field pattern, for stationary and constantly moving "charges," means that there is no net energy loss. Hence, radiation without emission. Without going into my kinematical model of the electron, I will mention that Mills' spherical-shell mathematical model fits it very nicely. (I have his new book and am presently looking at his orbital-electron model, which I may not agree with so readily.) If there is no net loss of radiant energy, the charge must be reabsorbing energy at the same rate that it is emitting it. I suspect that there will be "standing" waves, but have not yet explored this. An accelerating or super-luminal electron cannot generally have nulled fields; thus we can get emission of Bremsstrahlung, cyclotron, and Cerenkov radiation. A bound electron is a special case of accelerating charge that can still provide a nulled far-field. However, if it can emit radiation, it will. A system of bound charges (which together radiate without emitting) is even more complicated. >If the inner orbitals are filled, the outer electrons "absorb" as much energy >(from the radiated near fields of the inner electrons) as they radiate. >Therefore, they continue to radiate at the same frequency and the >superposition of radiated energy cancels out all farfield from the electron >(those beyond some finite distance from the atom)." You asked: Where does the energy for this prodigious stream of radiation come from? Now you can see that, in my terms, the radiation is a two-way street. With no net loss of energy, the standing electric and magnetic fields of the inner electrons prevent further energy loss of the outer electrons and thus establish the basis for the Pauli Exclusion Principal. The limited angular momentum available in the orbitals provides the basis for the orbital "selection" rules. My theory is still a work in progress, so I appreciate your comments and am still looking for other sources. Mills' theory, which is the closest to mine that I have found, is an excellent starting point. He has already covered much of the ground that I need to. If we come to the same conclusions, independently and from different directions, I feel that both models (and claimed consequences) will be strengthened. Thx again, Drew M. --------------1562F3A3336E466A93530E2D Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Tom Tstolper;

I was perhaps too cryptic in my comments when I wrote in a message Dated: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 15:12:25 -0500:

>All bound electrons radiate (according to EM theory).
>Only those that are able to fall to lower orbitals can "emit" a photon.

I am drawing a distinction between two types of event.  Radiation, in my mind, is the moving away of electric and magnetic fields from a source.  However, these fields do not necessarily "escape."  Emission is when the radiation escapes.

To illustrate:        A stationary electron is generally considered to have a radially- symmetric fixed electric field about it.  In motion, the electric field seems to move rigidly along with it.  However, with such motion, a magnetic field is also observed.  This magnetic field can be considered to be the relativistic distortion of a semi-rigid electric field.  While this picture is useful, I believe that it is more accurate to consider the fields to be propagating out at the speed of light - only to be nulled (by destructive interference) at great distances from the electron.  (Remember that the phase velocities are not limited by the speed of light.)  The nulled far-field pattern, for stationary and constantly moving "charges," means that there is no net energy loss.  Hence, radiation without emission.

Without going into my kinematical model of the electron, I will mention that Mills' spherical-shell mathematical model fits it very nicely.  (I have his new book and am presently looking at his orbital-electron model, which I may not agree with so readily.)  If there is no net loss of radiant energy, the charge must be reabsorbing energy at the same rate that it is emitting it.  I suspect that there will be "standing" waves, but have not yet explored this.

An accelerating or super-luminal electron cannot generally have nulled fields;  thus we can get emission of Bremsstrahlung, cyclotron, and Cerenkov radiation.  A bound electron is a special case of accelerating charge that can still provide a nulled far-field.  However, if it can emit radiation, it will.  A system of bound charges (which together radiate without emitting) is even more complicated.

>If the inner orbitals are filled, the outer electrons "absorb" as much energy
>(from the radiated near fields of the inner electrons) as they radiate.
>Therefore, they continue to radiate at the same frequency and the
>superposition of radiated energy cancels out all farfield from the electron
>(those beyond some finite distance from the atom)."

You asked:
Where does the energy for this prodigious stream of radiation come from?

Now you can see that, in my terms, the radiation is a two-way street.  With no net loss of energy, the standing electric and magnetic fields of the inner electrons prevent further energy loss of the outer electrons and thus establish the basis for the Pauli Exclusion Principal.  The limited angular momentum available in the orbitals provides the basis for the orbital "selection" rules.

My theory is still a work in progress, so I appreciate your comments and am still looking for other sources.  Mills' theory, which is the closest to mine that I have found, is an excellent starting point.  He has already covered much of the ground that I need to.  If we come to the same conclusions, independently and from different directions, I feel that both models (and claimed consequences) will be strengthened.

Thx again,

Drew M. --------------1562F3A3336E466A93530E2D-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 10 20:49:40 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA15629; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:48:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:48:49 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 19:01:03 -0900 To: jonesb9 cwnet.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Speculation on proton membranes Resent-Message-ID: <"smg-W3.0.6q3.Xk14t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26845 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:54 AM 4/10/99, Jones Beene wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > >> Perhaps you saw the AIP newsletter some months back that reported that >> electrolyte conduction has been found to be carried out not just by heavy >> ion diffusion, as previously thought, but also by electron current. >> Conduction in the proton conductor is hopefully at least partially gradient >> based, not mostly diffusion based, and entirely proton based. This should >> improve the excess heat signal to noise ratio, and possibly permit more >> precise control of proton-phonon energy exchanges within the proton >> conductor, by use of large gradients. > >I will try to find this article, as I have always been a little unclear about >the precise nano-mechanics of proton conduction. [snip] I just looked at the AIP web page and could not find the article. I am now not sure where I saw it. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 11 02:03:13 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA00242; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 02:00:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 02:00:11 -0700 From: Chuck Davis To: Mike Carrell Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 02:00:59 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <005601be838f$c829d7e0$304accd1 default> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: Ultra Wide Band Radio MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"99PZP.0.h3.RI64t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26846 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I found the two websites at http://www.time-domain.com and http://www.uwb.org This sounds like a cool idea, since PGP like stuff already exists. On 10-Apr-99, Mike Carrell, wrote: > I looked at the article cited by Ed. It looks like a variation on >spread-spectrum transmission technology, which has indeed been around for >decades. Originally a classified military technique, the advent of very high >speed processors has made it a fairly common technique. >The basic idea is to take an information stream and modulate it with a very >wideband pseudorandom sequence. Its radiated bandwidth will be large in >comparison with the signal, but it can be at low level. The radiated signal >appears as noise to any receiver that is not equipped to perform >autocorrelation on the specific pseudorandom sequence. Receivers so equipped >are acutely sensitive to this stream and all other signals, including >natural noise, are suppressed. >The technique is advantageous for covert communications, for the signal >appears as a slight increase in background noise to all but the decoding >receiver. >This method is used now by some mobile phones. For civilian use, the code >sequences don't have to be very long to be effective. >As for the cited intereferences, I surmise that the inventor realized that >the usual structures of tuned circuits, etc., standard with narrowband >transmission technology, could simply be bypassed by very fast solid state >circuits generating and autocorrelating code sequences. Such devices would >be very compact and cheap to manufacture and could find their way into >communications and short range radar and proximity detection applications. >And by using difference coding sequences, a multitude of such devices could >share the same physical and spectrum space without mutual interference and >regulation by the FCC. >Mike Carrell -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' http://www.post-trauma.com/roshi.html http://www.Starsaga.com/biofeedback.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 11 02:20:59 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA30472; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 02:20:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 02:20:16 -0700 Message-ID: <371069BA.E43D9B85 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 02:22:03 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gene on Laura Lee tonight - 9- 12 Pacific References: <199904102200.SAA01836 mercury.mv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KFWCB.0.wR7.Gb64t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26847 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: April 11, 1999, Well, I barely heard 'Gene's name from a weak and indistinct station (for LA) operating out of San Diego (1170 khz, AM). The station list at Laura Lee website shows nothing closer. Can you give us a summary of what was covered in the show later (after your travels) just in case others missed it also? "Happy Easter" :) -ak- E.F. Mallove wrote: > Vortexians: > > Gene Mallove will be Laura Lee's guest 9- 12 pm Pacific Time (12-3 am > eastern). > And I have to get up early tomorrow a.m. for four days of travel! > Am I a fanatic or what? > Gene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 11 02:42:36 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA25202; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 02:39:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 02:39:50 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <81f64f4e.2441c7b6 aol.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 05:39:02 EDT Subject: A working EHD Flying Saucer... To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 144 Reply-To: JNaudin509 aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"hDfSl2.0.e96.bt64t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26848 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear All, If you want to see a working EHD Flying Saucer... Look at : http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/delany/256/html/ehdfsv1.htm You will find also all diagrams, pictures, and video for reproducing the experiment yourself. I think that this will interest you. Ps: This is NOT an April joke... Best Regards, Jean-Louis Naudin Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com Overunity Web site: http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 11 05:53:56 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA03105; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 05:53:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 05:53:16 -0700 Message-ID: <000c01be841a$2bfa6980$9e49ccd1 default> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Case Contributions Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 08:51:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"7WqO31.0.Rm.yi94t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26849 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There has been some discussion of the merits of the contributions of Les Case and Russ George to the gas-phase Pd loading technology. When success nears, it is not surprising to find some marking of turf going on. It has been suggested that Case's systematic exploration of parameter space was somehow inelegant and unworthy. Case is a chemical engineer and one thing that chemical engineers do well is optimizing the performance of processes which are too complex for mathematical modeling. Nature does this all the time: it's called evolution. Japan blew $30 million exploring in detail the wrong corner of parameter space despite calls to look elsewhere from US researchers. A&Z's elegant experiments with nanopowders don't lead to commercial utilization. Even McKubre was unable to duplicate the Arata cathode; his verification experiments are being run with cathodes supplied by Arata. Case's discovery that commercial catalysts and the right operating conditions, easily produced, will result in excess heat and helium production is an important advance which I don't think others had made. One of the problems with contemporary physics is a fixation on mathematical theory, such that empirical discoveries -- answers given by Nature -- tend to be ignored. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 11 07:11:45 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA18161; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 07:11:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 07:11:15 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990411091410.008d55e0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 09:14:10 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <000c01be841a$2bfa6980$9e49ccd1 default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"_uOED2.0.hR4.3sA4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26850 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:51 AM 4/11/99 -0400, Mike Carrell wrote: >Case's discovery that commercial catalysts and the right operating >conditions, easily produced, will result in excess heat... Mike, you talk like Case's excess heat production is fact. I don't think it is. Case's own calorimetric method is not rigorous, and his excess temperature result could be an artifact. As I understand from McKubre, the experiments at SRI did not look for heat. Has anyone else attempted to confirm Case's excess heat claim? If so, did they use the same method that Case uses? My offer to perform a free on-site calorimetric evaluation of Case's own apparatus still stands. I would encase his apparatus in a heat exchanger that would provide an environment very similar to his normal operating environment. His measurement would therefore be unimpeded by my mine. We could operate his apparatus until his excess temperature phenomenon appeared...and then look over at my instruments to see if it really is excess heat. Case does not appear to be interested in such a test. Can you suggest anything that might change his mind? Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 11 07:49:59 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA29116; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 07:48:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 07:48:55 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 06:01:13 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Case Contributions Resent-Message-ID: <"MxBKc1.0.p67.NPB4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26851 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:51 AM 4/11/99, Mike Carrell wrote: >There has been some discussion of the merits of the contributions of Les >Case and Russ George to the gas-phase Pd loading technology. When success >nears, it is not surprising to find some marking of turf going on. It has >been suggested that Case's systematic exploration of parameter space was >somehow inelegant and unworthy. Do you have a quote on that? I haven't seen anything like that on vortex. Is that from a private discussion? At 9:14 AM 4/11/99, Scott Little wrote: [snip] >Case does not appear to be interested in such a test. Can you suggest >anything that might change his mind? Russ George is claiming not only excess heat but a self sustaining reaction at 350 deg. C. He posted pictures and a description of his 4HE experiment on his web page. Maybe he will supply info or access to his self-susatiner? It's not likely, but you never know until you ask. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 11 08:18:21 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA05018; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 08:17:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 08:17:03 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990411152352.016236e8 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 11:23:52 -0400 To: JNaudin509 aol.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: A working EHD Flying Saucer... Resent-Message-ID: <"FbBNu3.0.FE1.kpB4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26852 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:39 AM 4/11/99 EDT, JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: >Dear All, > >If you want to see a working EHD Flying Saucer... > >Look at : http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/delany/256/html/ehdfsv1.htm > >You will find also all diagrams, pictures, and video for reproducing the >experiment yourself. Jean-Louis; Congratulations on your good work. Comment: Electrode surfaces could be smoother. It looks like the electrode annular plasma balls are somewhat randomly spaced by sharp points and edges on the rim. The geometry precision and surface smoothness should be such that the plasma balls are evenly spaced on the rim (easier to achieve when under vacuum). No observable (detectable) shape or smoothness irregularities. I think of my prototypes as sculptures. It is now art. Therefore, perfection of form and function overrules the time and money it takes to reach said state. What am I saying? You are French. You know about the state of artistic being and focus. Do you have vacuum / belljar equipment (good to 1 or 2 Torr - w/ vacuum gauge - electrode volume should be 10% or less of belljar volume or there maybe heat accumulation issues - w/ force sensor)? If so, would you like to try a suggestion or two? Any comments from the senior vortexians out there on the idea of using a 1.25" thick plexiglass baseplate with electrical feedthroughs for a belljar vacuum system? Cost and electrical insulation considerations are factors indicating plexiglass is better than stainless steel as baseplate material. The wires/feedthroughs will heat up over time so thermal deformation (or rather insulation?) of the plexiglass baseplate material must be considered. Lexan is an alternate possibility. Outgassing effects on plasma anyone? Implosion shield a must? Unified Field Art http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/UFA1.JPG Regards; Dennis ________________________________________ When I am working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I only think of how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong. -R. Buckminster Fuller- ________________________________________ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 11 08:53:47 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA14081; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 08:50:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 08:50:52 -0700 From: Chuck Davis To: Akira Kawasaki Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 08:51:46 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <371069BA.E43D9B85 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: Gene on Laura Lee tonight - 9- 12 Pacific MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"1uL6r1.0.xR3.SJC4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26853 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Athough they delay it a bit, KXNT 840 khz, in Vegas xmits it. I crashed and missed it. I'm in LA, too. On 11-Apr-99, Akira Kawasaki, wrote: >April 11, 1999, >Well, I barely heard 'Gene's name from a weak and indistinct station (for >LA) operating out of San Diego (1170 khz, AM). The station list at Laura >Lee website shows nothing closer. >Can you give us a summary of what was covered in the show later (after >your travels) just in case others missed it also? >"Happy Easter" :) >-ak- >E.F. Mallove wrote: >> Vortexians: >> >> Gene Mallove will be Laura Lee's guest 9- 12 pm Pacific Time (12-3 am >> eastern). >> And I have to get up early tomorrow a.m. for four days of travel! >> Am I a fanatic or what? >> Gene -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' http://www.post-trauma.com/roshi.html http://www.Starsaga.com/biofeedback.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 11 11:18:10 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA08593; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 11:14:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 11:14:46 -0700 Message-ID: <371101CB.D85B0FD6 sunherald.infi.net> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 13:10:51 -0700 From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: High K dielectrics? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"S4tgD3.0.762.MQE4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26854 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All: Anyone here know a source for high-k dielectrics, preferably not extremely expensive? If I have to, I am willing to spend $$$... Kyle R. Mcallister From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 11 12:52:23 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA32761; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 12:51:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 12:51:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3710FDB3.ADD158C0 erie.net> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 15:53:23 -0400 From: Norm Biss X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: High K dielectrics? References: <371101CB.D85B0FD6 sunherald.infi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"h-cX61.0.p_7.gqF4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26855 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle, You will have to be a little more specific as to their application. I work for an Electric Motor Repair Shop, and have or have access to a wide variety of dielectrics. Do you know the class of insulator wanted, the form(Tube, sheet, roll, flexible, rigid, etc.). Regards, Norm "Kyle R. Mcallister" wrote: > All: > > Anyone here know a source for high-k dielectrics, preferably not > extremely expensive? If I have to, I am willing to spend $$$... > > Kyle R. Mcallister From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 11 13:02:27 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA04453; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 13:01:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 13:01:16 -0700 Message-ID: <37111AC5.DE743369 sunherald.infi.net> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 14:57:25 -0700 From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: High K dielectrics? References: <371101CB.D85B0FD6 sunherald.infi.net> <3710FDB3.ADD158C0@erie.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FO2oM2.0.V51.C-F4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26856 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Norm Biss wrote: > > Kyle, > You will have to be a little more specific as to their application. > I work for an Electric Motor > Repair Shop, and have or have access to a wide variety of > dielectrics. Do you know the class > of insulator wanted, the form(Tube, sheet, roll, flexible, rigid, > etc.). OK: 1. It needs to be in sheet form. Must be flat. Thickness <.25 inches. 2. Dielectric constant must be high >100 3. Used for a capacitor. 4. Breakdown voltage must be greater than 10,000 volts. Loss, etc, does not matter. The four points above are all that is important. Kyle R. Mcallister From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 11 13:49:08 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA17367; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 13:46:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 13:46:00 -0700 Message-ID: <37110A90.F20E8DDB erie.net> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 16:48:16 -0400 From: Norm Biss X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: High K dielectrics? References: <371101CB.D85B0FD6 sunherald.infi.net> <3710FDB3.ADD158C0@erie.net> <37111AC5.DE743369@sunherald.infi.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------562717C736AE67F3A9E3130B" Resent-Message-ID: <"zaSKj3.0.HF4.7eG4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26857 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --------------562717C736AE67F3A9E3130B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, Kyle, Go to this URL: http://www.essexgroup.com/ When you access the site, click on the "Products" icon in the lower left corner. Next, click on the "Manufacturing" bar. It will give you some idea of what they have in the way of insulation. They have an email icon you can use, to contact them and get specific information. Almost any motor repair shop can get the materials for you. I hope this has been some help to you. Regards, Norm "Kyle R. Mcallister" wrote: > Norm Biss wrote: > > > > Kyle, > > You will have to be a little more specific as to their application. > > I work for an Electric Motor > > Repair Shop, and have or have access to a wide variety of > > dielectrics. Do you know the class > > of insulator wanted, the form(Tube, sheet, roll, flexible, rigid, > > etc.). > > OK: > > 1. It needs to be in sheet form. Must be flat. Thickness <.25 inches. > 2. Dielectric constant must be high >100 > 3. Used for a capacitor. > 4. Breakdown voltage must be greater than 10,000 volts. > > Loss, etc, does not matter. The four points above are all that is > important. > > Kyle R. Mcallister --------------562717C736AE67F3A9E3130B Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, Kyle,
Go to this URL:  http://www.essexgroup.com/

When you access the site, click on the "Products" icon in the lower left corner.
Next, click on the "Manufacturing" bar.  It will give you some idea of what they
have in the way of insulation.  They have an email icon you can use, to contact
them and get specific information.  Almost any motor repair shop can get the
materials for you.
I hope this has been some help to you.

Regards,
Norm

"Kyle R. Mcallister" wrote:

Norm Biss wrote:
>
> Kyle,
> You will have to be a little more specific as to their application.
> I work for an Electric Motor
> Repair Shop, and have or have access to a wide variety of
> dielectrics.  Do you know the class
> of insulator wanted, the form(Tube, sheet, roll, flexible, rigid,
> etc.).

OK:

1. It needs to be in sheet form. Must be flat. Thickness <.25 inches.
2. Dielectric constant must be high >100
3. Used for a capacitor.
4. Breakdown voltage must be greater than 10,000 volts.

Loss, etc, does not matter. The four points above are all that is
important.

Kyle R. Mcallister

--------------562717C736AE67F3A9E3130B-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 11 21:04:24 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA29460; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 21:01:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 21:01:33 -0700 Message-ID: <19990412040315.4396.rocketmail web114.yahoomail.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 21:03:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Great NPR program on cold fusion! To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"JQ4NC.0.AC7.T0N4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26858 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: aki ix.netcom.com wrote: >... Around the So. Cal. region, not one station carrying NPR news >carries the Science Friday program... KPBS in San Diego carries Science Friday. And despite the fact that San Diego is not in Los Angeles (my native city, BTW), it IS in So. Cal! :-) === Michael J. Schaffer _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 11 23:08:53 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA20825; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 23:04:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 23:04:59 -0700 Message-ID: <37118D6A.A2381F81 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 23:06:34 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Great NPR program on cold fusion! (off topic now) References: <19990412040315.4396.rocketmail web114.yahoomail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"z07O53.0.J55.AqO4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26859 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: April 11, 1999 Michael Schaffer wrote: > KPBS in San Diego carries Science Friday. And despite the fact that San > Diego is not in Los Angeles (my native city, BTW), it IS in So. Cal! :-) I stand corrected! Thanks, nice to know. A strong San Diego station I pick up for 'conservative' oriented talk shows daytime and for Art Bell on sleepless nights is KOGO AM. I now discern KPBS FM (89.5) in that crowded jumble of lower band FM stations seemingly echoing PBS news and other programs. I usually pick out KPPC (89.9) for signal strength clarity and avoiding and not bothering to find where the other low signal mess was coming from. Certainly, since AM signals were tough enough coming from San Diego, I did not expect FM ('line of sight') stations to come in or check out. I guess I should have climbed a hill like Mallove. :) -ak- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 11 23:22:46 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA24419; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 23:22:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 23:22:08 -0700 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199904120622.BAA25153 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: A working EHD Flying Saucer... In-Reply-To: <81f64f4e.2441c7b6 aol.com> from "JNaudin509@aol.com" at "Apr 11, 99 05:39:02 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 01:22:07 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2k3pC3.0.Tz5.G4P4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26860 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > If you want to see a working EHD Flying Saucer... > > Look at : http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/delany/256/html/ehdfsv1.htm > > You will find also all diagrams, pictures, and video for reproducing the > experiment yourself. To take this from the lab to reality will require some engineering numbers -- just as the Wright brothers had to develope the parameters of lift. In electrostatic systems, what is the equivalent "wing loading" you can get per unit area. Which percentage is electrostatic repulsion/attraction and which percentage is electrohydrodynamic. Since gradients determine electrostatic breakdown, and since the radius of curvature determines gradients, and since size determines the radius of curvature, what are the relationships of vehicle size to lift without risking electrostatic breakdown? The need for a counter-balance in your lab model illustrates the point. It is probable that increasing of vehicle dimension will allow a higher operating voltage, allowing for increased unit lift per area. Is there a point where increasing the craft dimension allows sufficient lift to accomdate actual on-board generating weights? These are the sorts of questions that will need to be answered if all these EHD lab experiments will ever be made to sustain flight completely on their own. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 651-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 12 00:33:48 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA03741; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 00:33:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 00:33:00 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <81fa02b2.2442fb71 aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 03:32:01 EDT Subject: Re: A working EHD Flying Saucer... To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: jlogajan skypoint.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 144 Reply-To: JNaudin509 aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA03720 Resent-Message-ID: <"y2DpK2.0.Mw.i6Q4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26861 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 12/04/99 08:22:28é), jlogajan skypoint.com wrote : > To take this from the lab to reality will require some engineering > numbers -- just as the Wright brothers had to develope the parameters > of lift. > > In electrostatic systems, what is the equivalent "wing loading" you can > get per unit area. Which percentage is electrostatic repulsion/attraction > and which percentage is electrohydrodynamic. Today, I have added some computer simulations and calculations about the EHD-FS, please look at : http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/delany/256/html/ehdfscs.htm I hope this help to visualize and understand better the principle, More to come soon... Best Regards, Jean-Louis Naudin Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com Overunity Web site: http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 12 02:24:46 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA19384; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 02:22:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 02:22:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3711BBC6.40679A61 erie.net> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 05:24:22 -0400 From: Norm Biss X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Free Electricity Machine Demonstration References: <3711B85E.F086AC78 erie.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------AEDD797D080C76EED74EE460" Resent-Message-ID: <"TSKON1.0.Yk4.yiR4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26862 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --------------AEDD797D080C76EED74EE460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To all list members: The following message was forwarded to me. With the Year 2000 rapidly approaching, these guys are coming out of the woodwork. I would be interested in any comments. Thank You. Regards, Norm Biss Erie, Pa. 4-12-99 normpems erie.net > -----Original Message----- > From: Kurt > To: "Un-Disclosed Receipients - To stop simply reply > \"unsubscribe\" on subject line" > Date: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 9:11 AM > Subject: Free Electricity Machine Demonstration > > Free Electricity Machine Demonstration > > Newfoundland, New Jersey > Starting at 1:00 PM on April 10th and repeating each > Saturday in April. > Let me know if you want to go. I must register you > as my guest 2 days in advance. > > To Learn More > > ttp://www.america.com/~knallie/free_electricity_message.htm > > http://www.america.com/~knallie > > Email me at: knallie america.com > > For Freedom, Free Enterprise, and Free Electricity, > Kurt. > -- > See my Freedom and Technology Forum page: > http://www.america.com/~knallie > email me at: knallie america.com > --------------AEDD797D080C76EED74EE460 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  
To all list members:

The following message was forwarded to me.
With the Year 2000 rapidly approaching, these guys are coming out of the woodwork.
I would be interested in any comments.

Thank You.

Regards,
Norm Biss
Erie, Pa.
4-12-99

normpems erie.net
 
 
 
 
 

         -----Original Message-----
From: Kurt <knallie@america.com>
To: "Un-Disclosed Receipients - To stop simply reply \"unsubscribe\" on subject line" <knallie@america.com>
Date: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 9:11 AM
Subject: Free Electricity Machine Demonstration

Free Electricity Machine Demonstration

Newfoundland, New Jersey
Starting at 1:00 PM on April 10th and repeating each Saturday in April.
      Let me know if you want to go.  I must register you as my guest 2 days in advance.

To Learn More
http://www.america.com/~knallie/free_electricity_message.htm

http://www.america.com/~knallie

Email me at: knallie america.com

For Freedom,  Free Enterprise, and Free Electricity,
Kurt.
--
See my Freedom and Technology Forum page: http://www.america.com/~knallie
email me at: knallie america.com
 

--------------AEDD797D080C76EED74EE460-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 12 02:41:35 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA16098; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 02:40:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 02:40:47 -0700 X-Sender: danyork lyghtforce.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 04:40:31 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dan York Subject: Re: Fw: Free Electricity Machine Demonstration In-Reply-To: <3711BBC6.40679A61 erie.net> References: <3711B85E.F086AC78 erie.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-Id: <09403451502652 Lyghtforce.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id CAA16082 Resent-Message-ID: <"W1LXD1.0.Sx3.U-R4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26863 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In the text it says - "Director of Research for Better World Technologies, Dennis Lee" That says all that needs to be said about it. At 05:24 AM 4/12/99 -0400, you wrote: > >   > To all list members: > > The following message was forwarded to me. > With the Year 2000 rapidly approaching, these guys are coming out of the > woodwork. > I would be interested in any comments. > > Thank You. > > Regards, > Norm Biss > Erie, Pa. > 4-12-99 > > normpems erie.net >   >   >   >   >   >> >>          -----Original Message----- >> From: Kurt <knallie@america.com> >> To: "Un-Disclosed Receipients - To stop simply reply \"unsubscribe\" on >> subject line" <knallie@america.com> >> Date: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 9:11 AM >> Subject: Free Electricity Machine Demonstration >> >> Free Electricity Machine Demonstration >> >> Newfoundland, New Jersey >> Starting at 1:00 PM on April 10th and repeating each Saturday in April. >>       Let me know if you want to go.  I must register you as my guest 2 days >> in advance. >> >> To Learn More >> >> http://www. >> america.com/~knallie/free_electricity_message.htm >> >> http://www.america.com/~knallie >> >> Email me at: knallie america.com >> >> For Freedom,  Free Enterprise, and Free Electricity, >> Kurt. >> -- >> See my Freedom and Technology Forum page: >> http://www.america.com/~knallie >> email me at: knallie america.com >>   > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 12 03:36:48 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA17817; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 03:31:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 03:31:46 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 00:29:29 -1000 Subject: He's at it again folks... From: "Rick Monteverde" To: "Vortex-L" Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <199904120648.SM00197 [206.127.240.158]> Resent-Message-ID: <"HYuRJ1.0.FM4.IkS4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26864 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From that website someone posted here where Dennis Lee is advertising his latest. Now hurry up and sell that silly AOL-Yahoo-CMGI stock you've been holding onto in the vain hope that it was ever going to go up, and put-cher money raht hee-ir... > If you would like to be a part of this great effort, United Community > Services of America is accepting loan offers now. You need only put up > $1000 on a $10,000 loan. When a free electricity machine is installed on > your home making free electricity for you, and only then, you provide the > other 90% ($9000) of your loan. The $1000 is good faith money to show you > are serious and intend to come up with the other $9000 on delivery. > > The term of the loan is one year, after which you get all of your money > back, plus you have had all your electricity for free for that whole year. > Then for subsequent years, while each free electricity machine you seed > makes marketable power for individuals and industry, you will receive > $10,000 annually, AND all your electricity will continue to be FREE (up to > 2166 KWh per month). That's 100% on your investment annually, plus all your > free electricity !!! We will arrange to sell all the extra electricity > produced by our machine, which is how we can make this offer. > > To see how much you are paying per Kilowatt hour now, take your monthly bill > and divide the total charged by the Kilowatt hours "used". You probably > "used" about 2000 KWh. > > Machines will be distributed on a first come first serve basis. > > Add to the excitement, concern about Y2k issues, and it becomes an > imperative for anyone and everyone, aware enough to realize the staggering > implications - how this technology will change the world for the better. > > UCSofA OWNS AND SERVICES the machine. You have no obligation except to > provide access. . It will be installed outside your home, preferably near > your electric service entrance, so access shouldn't be a problem. It will > weigh around 700 lbs so no one will pick it up and walk off. > > In case you weren't aware, there has been a bit of technology and > information suppression going on. We have been the unwitting slaves of > certain folks, who have been thwarting attempts to release alternative > sources of power. The media is not our friend, since it belongs to those > same vested interests, who would prefer this technology stayed in the > closet. Feel free to pass this information on, but only to others of like > mind; preferably those who are aware. Remember that the media dog does not > bite its master. Director of Research for Better World Technologies, Dennis > Lee, has already been ground under the spokes of the energy suppression > turnip cart, but has emerged with some awareness of the "good ol' boys" and > their tactics of enslavement. > [ & & & bla bla bla..........] - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 12 07:47:55 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA13185; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 07:46:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 07:46:11 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990412104605.0079aa20 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:46:05 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Case Contributions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"LEPTo3.0.wD3.oSW4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26865 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little writes: As I understand from McKubre, the experiments at SRI did not look for heat. Not quite right. They calibrated and measured temperature at regular intervals, but they are not ready to state with 100% assurance that they saw excess heat. See: http://rsrch.com/saturna/APSpapers_1998_1999.htm Based on other CF results, I think it is inconceivable that they have helium but no heat. Has anyone else attempted to confirm Case's excess heat claim? If so, did they use the same method that Case uses? Yes, we did. Case brought the cell to our lab and we used our own instruments to confirm the heat. But we did not improve on his calorimetry. We are still working on that. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 12 10:53:20 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA12624; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:50:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:50:25 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990412125121.00b0c6e4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:51:21 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990412104605.0079aa20 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"s2sqd1.0.953.W9Z4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26866 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:46 4/12/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Yes, we did. Case brought the cell to our lab and we used our own >instruments to confirm the heat. You mean "confirm the excess temperature", right? Suppose you had a small room-sized calorimeter and you made rigorous heat output measurements on two different 100 watt heat sources (1) your body, and (2) a 100 watt light bulb. You would get the same result on each source: 100 watts. Now suppose you didn't have a calorimeter and decided to just infer the heat output from the surface temperature of each of the heat sources. Your body reads 37C but the bulb is ~250C!! Remove the fill gas in the bulb...the surface temperature drops dramatically....but it's still producing 100 watts of heat. Yes, I know that Case's phenomenon is a COMPARATIVE temperature effect...that he sees higher temps with D gas in the chamber than with H. That does reduce the liklihood of an artifact but it certainly does not eliminate it. In our experiments with this system we observed significant differences between the behavior of H and D gas. At certain pressures, changing the fill gas from H to D caused the start of convection currents in the chamber that perturbed the gas temperature readings. >But we did not improve on his calorimetry. We are still working on that. Yeah, I've been talking to Ed Wall about it. If you guys see excess temperatures in your cell, then perhaps we can work out a deal with Case where I visit your lab in NH with my portable calorimeter and test BOTH your cell AND one of Case's own cells to see if this phenomenon really is excess heat. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 12 12:02:56 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA06807; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:58:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:58:56 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990412145848.0079b550 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:58:48 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Chemical catalysis and CF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"iBPpU1.0.9g1.l9a4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26868 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edmund Storms discounts the hypothesis that D2 recombination is essential to the CF effect: . . . the claim that recombination is important based on the effect of thiourea makes no sense. Thiourea has many other effects besides blocking recombination. In addition, recombination does not occur in the Case or Arata cells yet a nuclear reaction is produced. I'm not sure about that. I suppose D2 formation must occur in a gas cell when there is an exchange of gas going into lattice while other gas emerges. I believe Arata's theory holds that the deuterons crawl around the edges without forming D2 . . . but perhaps that has not been proved to everyone's satisfaction. McKubre says that high flux or change in loading is a control parameter that increases the rate of the CF reaction. By the way, I did not mean to defend this hypothesis, but only to mention it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 12 12:03:45 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA06786; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:58:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:58:55 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990412145128.007b0770 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:51:28 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990412125121.00b0c6e4 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990412104605.0079aa20 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ppni33.0.uf1.k9a4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26867 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little writes: You mean "confirm the excess temperature", right? . . . Suppose you had a small room-sized calorimeter and you made rigorous heat output measurements on two different 100 watt heat sources (1) your body, and (2) a 100 watt light bulb. . . . Now suppose you didn't have a calorimeter and decided to just infer the heat output from the surface temperature of each of the heat sources . . . Yes, obviously . . . I think every reader here realizes that. But Case did more than merely measuring temperatures, and we did more than Case. His work is not as bad and not as open to error as this example implies. Regarding the work at SRI, although they will not formally commit to it, I think there is no doubt in their minds that the deuterium gas cell produced excess heat. If you guys see excess temperatures in your cell, then perhaps we can work out a deal with Case where I visit your lab in NH with my portable calorimeter and test BOTH your cell AND one of Case's own cells Perhaps we can . . . But if I were you and I was thinking of collaborating with Case, I would not post such over-simplified critiques of his work. It will rub him the wrong way. And if you really think he has made the kind of gross error you described, then I suppose you have no confidence in him, and you should not bother to come to New Hampshire to test his cell. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 12 13:18:01 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA02965; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:13:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:13:28 -0700 Message-ID: <19990412201340.7027.rocketmail web103.yahoomail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:13:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Jerry Wayne Decker Subject: Re: Fw: Free Electricity Machine Demonstration To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"hTlev1.0.5k.cFb4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26869 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Folks! With regard to the 'newest' free energy machine; Has the stench of Dennis Lee all over it; > If you would like to be a part of this great effort, > United Community Services of America is > accepting loan offers now.  > You need only put up $1000 on a $10,000 loan. > When a free electricity machine is installed on your > home making free electricity for you, and only then, > you provide the other 90% ($9000) of your loan. > The $1000 is good faith money to show you are > serious and intend to come up with the other > $9000 on delivery. > The term of the loan is one year, after which you > get all of your money back, plus you have had all > your electricity for free for that whole year. Then for > subsequent years, while each free electricity > machine you seed makes marketable power for > individuals and industry, you will receive $10,000 > annually, AND all your electricity will continue to be > FREE (up to 2166 KWh per month). That's 100% > on your investment annually, plus all your free > electricity !!!  We will arrange to sell all the extra > electricity produced by our machine, which is how > we can make this offer. Help, Mr. Wizard, time for this one to return to prison. --- Norm Biss wrote: > > To all list members: > > The following message was forwarded to me. > With the Year 2000 rapidly approaching, these guys > are > coming out of the woodwork. > I would be interested in any comments. > > Thank You. > > Regards, > Norm Biss > Erie, Pa. > 4-12-99 > > normpems erie.net > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kurt > > To: "Un-Disclosed Receipients - To stop simply > reply > > \"unsubscribe\" on subject line" > > > Date: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 9:11 AM > > Subject: Free Electricity Machine Demonstration > > > > Free Electricity Machine Demonstration > > > > Newfoundland, New Jersey > > Starting at 1:00 PM on April 10th and repeating > each > > Saturday in April. > > Let me know if you want to go. I must > register you > > as my guest 2 days in advance. > > > > To Learn More > > > > > ttp://www.america.com/~knallie/free_electricity_message.htm > > > > http://www.america.com/~knallie > > > > Email me at: knallie america.com > > > > For Freedom, Free Enterprise, and Free > Electricity, > > Kurt. > > -- > > See my Freedom and Technology Forum page: > > http://www.america.com/~knallie > > email me at: knallie america.com > > >
 
To all list members:

The following message was forwarded to me.
With the Year 2000 rapidly approaching, these guys are coming out of the woodwork.
I would be interested in any comments.

Thank You.

Regards,
Norm Biss
Erie, Pa.
4-12-99

normpems erie.net
 
 
 
 
 

         -----Original Message-----
From: Kurt <knallie@america.com>
To: "Un-Disclosed Receipients - To stop simply reply \"unsubscribe\" on subject line" <knallie@america.com>
Date: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 9:11 AM
Subject: Free Electricity Machine Demonstration

Free Electricity Machine Demonstration

Newfoundland, New Jersey
Starting at 1:00 PM on April 10th and repeating each Saturday in April.
      Let me know if you want to go.  I must register you as my guest 2 days in advance.

To Learn More
http://www.america.com/~knallie/free_electricity_message.htm

http://www.america.com/~knallie

Email me at: knallie america.com

For Freedom,  Free Enterprise, and Free Electricity,
Kurt.
--
See my Freedom and Technology Forum page: http://www.america.com/~knallie
email me at: knallie america.com
 

=== ================================= Please respond to jdecker keelynet.com as I am writing from my work email of jwdatwork yahoo.com.........thanks! ================================= _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 12 13:32:00 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA07450; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:25:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:25:49 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990412152652.00b0fdb0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:26:52 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990412145128.007b0770 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990412125121.00b0c6e4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412104605.0079aa20 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"06c-m1.0.Dq1.CRb4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26870 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 14:51 4/12/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote: >His [Case's] >work is not as bad and not as open to error as this example >implies. That is correct and that is why I went on to say: >Yes, I know that Case's phenomenon is a COMPARATIVE temperature >effect...that he sees higher temps with D gas in the chamber than with H. >That does reduce the liklihood of an artifact but it certainly does not >eliminate it. I just wanted to make sure that YOU understood the difference between temperature measurements and heat measurements...the two should not be used interchangeably. >...then I suppose you have no confidence in him, >and you should not bother to come to New Hampshire to test his cell. Frankly, I have little confidence that Case's phenomenon is genuine excess heat. I've too many examples where similar "calorimetry" failed miserably in a similar fashion. However, since Case is getting a lot of attention, and folks are going around complimenting him on his breakthrough, and Russ George is practically claiming that he invented it himself, I'd really like an opportunity to publicly demonstrate either (1) that my suspicions are correct or (2) that I am dead wrong and that Case's phenomenon is real excess heat. In the latter case, I would immediately publicly apologize to Les Case and the entire world for all the negative implications I have originated. I am frustrated by the fact that all this speculation is flying around and nobody has done a decent calorimetric measurement of his cell yet! I have the necessary equipment to perform this measurement sitting here idle. I have offered to perform the measurement free of charge...at Case's house...and Case won't even respond to me. I wonder if a one-sided wager would interest Case? Suppose I bet him $1000 that his phenomenon is not really excess heat. If he wins, I pay him the money. If he loses, he owes me nothing. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 12 13:34:57 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA11208; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:29:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:29:39 -0700 From: "George Holz" To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re:H2K- Experimental Protocol Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 16:30:04 -0400 Message-ID: <01be8523$3f276ad0$0c6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"hNELS.0.xk2.oUb4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26871 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Vince, You wrote: > >Yes, it's now almost a year later and I tend to agree with >the above.( Horace & Frank's suggestion to use lower power) >I have been collecting all the old posts and getting them into >hard copy and this one got me thinking. Now that I have a fairly >accurate way of measuring input power ( AC this round ) I will try >to run at a minimum power to sustain a discharge in the tube. >as one of the experimental series. I did notice last year that the >degrees per watt dropped off dramatically at the higher >temperatures due to greater convection with the uninsulated tube. > It is fine to do this test, however your last series of experiments does not support this conclusion. The fact that degrees C per watt drops off at higher temperatures is a simple consequence of the T^4 dependence of heat loss due to thermal radiation. The reason why high temperatures are needed is that the vapor pressure of K is too low at lower temperatures and the discharge will have essentially no K available to ionize. I also do not believe that AC excitation will give better OU performance for your device at the low 60Hz frequency that you propose to use. Ionization efficiency in discharges becomes higher as higher excitation frequencies are used. The first improvement occurs when fewer ions are lost at the electrodes than for the DC case (usually in the Mhz range) and the second improvement occurs at much higher frequencies ( 100 MHz- 2 GHz) when the electron loss is also reduced. The frequency at which improvement occurs can be calculated using the ion/electron mobility and is a function of field strength, pressure and device size. Note that Mills has chosen to use microwave excitation in his latest reported work. Regards, George Holz Varitronics Systems 732-356-7773 george varisys.com 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 12 14:17:32 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA23053; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:13:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:13:54 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990412171348.007a3250 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:13:48 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990412152652.00b0fdb0 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990412145128.007b0770 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412125121.00b0c6e4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412104605.0079aa20 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"rwtGs2.0.3e5.H8c4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26872 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little writes: >I am frustrated by the fact that all this speculation is flying around and >nobody has done a decent calorimetric measurement of his cell yet! They did superb calorimetric measurements of his cell at SRI, but they are not quite ready to talk about it yet. Unfortunately, the policy at SRI is not to talk about anything except to paying customers, so we may never hear about it. EPRI will not talk about their helium results either, unless you shell out $20,000. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 12 15:24:11 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA07982; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:20:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BPC-Relay-Envelope-From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au X-BPC-Relay-Envelope-To: X-BPC-Relay-Sender-Host: CPE-24-192-25-95.vic.bigpond.net.au [24.192.25.95] X-BPC-Relay-Info: Message delivered directly. From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A working EHD Flying Saucer... Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 22:18:44 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3712707a.82135480 mail-hub> References: <81fa02b2.2442fb71 aol.com> In-Reply-To: <81fa02b2.2442fb71 aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id PAA07935 Resent-Message-ID: <"6klAx.0.ey1.f6d4t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26873 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 12 Apr 1999 03:32:01 EDT, JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: [snip] >Today, I have added some computer simulations and calculations about the >EHD-FS, >please look at : > >http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/delany/256/html/ehdfscs.htm > >I hope this help to visualize and understand better the principle, > >More to come soon... > >Best Regards, > >Jean-Louis Naudin [snip] Hi Jean-Louis, I'm curious as to why you covered the upper surface with foil? Personally, I would have left it as an insulator so that the charges had to travel over the full surface to complete the circuit. I would expect that to result in the whole surface being used to provide lift. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 12 15:49:37 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA20880; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:46:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:46:44 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990412174432.00b18604 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:44:32 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990412171348.007a3250 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990412152652.00b0fdb0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412145128.007b0770 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412125121.00b0c6e4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412104605.0079aa20 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"-6ksm3.0.565.KVd4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26874 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 17:13 4/12/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote: >They did superb calorimetric measurements of his cell at SRI.... Jed, you could possibly save the above statement by a cleverly crafted definition of the word "superb".... I just asked Fran Tanzella: (of SRI): > Hi Fran, > > Have you guys ever run the Case experiment in a calorimeter? I recall you > telling me some months ago that you had not...that you had only looked for > He production. Has that changed recently? and he wrote back: >Hi Scott, >No, we haven't tried yet. We're designing a small matrix of cells mostly for >He production, but they should have very stable thermal characteristics. They >might give us calibratable calorimetry. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 12 17:17:17 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA14329; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:15:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:15:44 -0700 Message-ID: <37128C17.8FCE676E verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 03:13:11 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex , Pete Skeggs Subject: On Possible Modifications of Gravitation in the (sub)Millimeter Range (hep-ph/9904272) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SJdsx1.0.pV3.loe4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26875 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, This paper was appeared recently on LANL archive, may have importance on experimental gravitation research. Regards, hamdi ucar http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/hep-ph/9904272 On Possible Modifications of Gravitation in the (sub)Millimeter Range Authors: I. Antoniadis (Ecole Polytechnique) Comments: 7 pages, LaTeX, needs moriond2.sty, one eps figure Invited talk given at the XXXIV Rencontres de Moriond on Gravitational Waves and Experimental Gravity, Les Arcs, France, January 23-30, 1999 Report-no: CPHT-PC715.0499 I discuss possible modifications of gravitation at short distances in string theories with large internal dimensions and low string scale. The modifications are due to the change of Newton's law in the presence of (sub)millimeter-size transverse dimensions, or due to the existence of light scalars with masses as small as 10^{-3} eV, related to the mechanism of supersymmetry breaking, mediating new Yukawa-type forces with strength comparable to gravity. These modifications are testable in "tabletop" experiments that measure gravity at such short distances. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 12 22:00:23 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA10499; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:56:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:56:46 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:53:31 EDT Subject: Re: H2K- Experimental Protocol To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"xrvD33.0.zZ2.Ewi4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26876 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/12/1999 13:31:07 Pacific Daylight Time, george varisys.com writes: > It is fine to do this test, however your last series of experiments > does not support this conclusion. The fact that degrees C per watt > drops off at higher temperatures is a simple consequence of the > T^4 dependence of heat loss due to thermal radiation. The reason > why high temperatures are needed is that the vapor pressure of > K is too low at lower temperatures and the discharge will have > essentially no K available to ionize. > I also do not believe that AC excitation will give better OU > performance for your device at the low 60Hz frequency that you > propose to use. Ionization efficiency in discharges becomes higher > as higher excitation frequencies are used. The first improvement > occurs when fewer ions are lost at the electrodes than for the DC case > (usually in the MHz range) and the second improvement occurs at > much higher frequencies ( 100 MHz- 2 GHz) when the electron > loss is also reduced. The frequency at which improvement occurs can > be calculated using the ion/electron mobility and is a function of > field strength, pressure and device size. Note that Mills has > chosen to use microwave excitation in his latest reported work. > Regards, > George Holz Varitronics Systems > 732-356-7773 george varisys.com > 1924 US Hwy. 22 East Bound Brook NJ 08805 > George, also have plans to try some sort of high frequency power source. An electronic florescent ballast is one possibility at the suggestion of several members of the group. Will try that after the present round is completed. No timetable on this yet. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 13 00:37:48 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA14200; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:37:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:37:02 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <8aec0e9a.24444de3 aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 03:36:03 EDT Subject: Re: A working EHD Flying Saucer... To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com CC: atech ix.netcom.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 144 Reply-To: JNaudin509 aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"R4Oa83.0.fT3.RGl4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26877 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 11/04/99 17:17:54, atech ix.netcom.com wrote : > Jean-Louis; > > Congratulations on your good work. > Hi Dennis and all, Thanks for your comments, > Comment: Electrode surfaces could be smoother. It looks like the electrode > annular plasma balls are somewhat randomly spaced by sharp points and edges > on the rim. The geometry precision and surface smoothness should be such > that the plasma balls are evenly spaced on the rim (easier to achieve when > under vacuum). No observable (detectable) shape or smoothness > irregularities. I fully agree with about the smoothness surface of the cupola, this will increase the effect. because the medium will be able to flow at a higher speed on the cupola surface, thus this will decrease the hydrostatic pressure on the upper surface. This is an ElectroHydroDynamic effect and the shape and the medium speed along a specific path (due to the shape, like a wing profile) is very important for increasing the resulting thrust... > Do you have vacuum / belljar equipment (good to 1 or 2 Torr - w/ vacuum > gauge - electrode volume should be 10% or less of belljar volume or there > maybe heat accumulation issues - w/ force sensor)? If so, would you like to > try a suggestion or two? > Unfortunately, I don't have a vacuum chamber for testing the device, but I hope to check this soon with some external help.... This has been fully tested and checked by Townsend Brown in France, for more informations about this you may read : "Electrogravitics Systems" ( Report on a new propulsion methodology) by Thomas Valone - ISBN 0-9641070-0-7 and also : "L'effet Biefeld-Brown" by Alexandre Szames - (ASZ editions ISBN 2-913377-00-9 - EAN 9782913377004) ( http://www.aes.com.freeservers.com/html/bbbook.htm ) Ps: I have updated my web site with three new videos about my EHD-FS v2.0 in action and also some explanations about the EHD working principles with computer simulations pictures at : http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/delany/256/html/advprop.htm Best Regards, Jean-Louis Naudin Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com Overunity Web site: http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 13 02:54:15 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA18850; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 02:51:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 02:51:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3713141D.57789C83 erie.net> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 05:53:34 -0400 From: Norm Biss X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: please cross post this] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------542C8F8B3F4AD50132236EB7" Resent-Message-ID: <"8b0PN.0.Jc4.JEn4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26878 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------542C8F8B3F4AD50132236EB7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------542C8F8B3F4AD50132236EB7 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from voicenet.com (mail12.voicenet.com [207.103.0.6]) by moose.erie.net (8.9.2/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA20763 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 23:41:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 22379 invoked from network); 13 Apr 1999 03:41:21 -0000 Received: from dialup903-pri.voicenet.com (HELO voicenet.com) (207.103.117.131) by mail12.voicenet.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 1999 03:41:21 -0000 Message-ID: <3712BCFC.3A8024D7 voicenet.com> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 23:41:48 -0400 From: Eric Krieg Reply-To: eric voicenet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Norm Biss Subject: please cross post this References: <3711C43B.BD68369B erie.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Norm Biss wrote: > > Eric, > FYI - Thought you would like to know that Dennis Lee has > another big Fan. > > Regards, > Norm > > Norm, could I trouble you to post to the list the following from me: Vortexians, sorry your volume is a little high for me to join. I did catch wind that another Dennis Lee dealer is after the commissions ex-convict Dennis Lee offers for bringing in fresh money. I would like to add that Dennis (like most free energy messiahs) has been promising FE (free energy) in 2 months . .. every 2 months. Although I have offered him $50,000 for proof of a real device - his only real response is a promise to sue me. Dennis does plenty of obligatory ranting about "the conspiracy", direct revelations from God, twisted science, pleas for money, patriot talk and wild pro mises (Just like Joe Newman) - And he's always short on compelling proof. But that doesn't stop a cult-like following from clinging desperately to false hope. I offer more information: http://www.phact.org/e/dennis.html also, a few slow moving email lists of mine: http://www.phact.org/e/more.htm Eric Krieg eric phact.org --------------542C8F8B3F4AD50132236EB7-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 13 05:53:33 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA00147; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 05:52:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 05:52:51 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990413085248.007a0aa0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:52:48 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990412174432.00b18604 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990412171348.007a3250 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412152652.00b0fdb0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412145128.007b0770 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412125121.00b0c6e4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412104605.0079aa20 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ff7dB3.0.D2.Zup4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26879 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little writes: >Jed, you could possibly save the above statement by a cleverly crafted >definition of the word "superb".... Hmmmm . . . Well, the calorimetry sounded a lot better when Russ and Mike described it. Precise, anyway. What can I say? They haven't released the details, as you know. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 13 07:34:37 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA01373; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 07:30:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 07:30:38 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990413093043.00b0c5cc mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:30:43 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990413085248.007a0aa0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990412174432.00b18604 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412171348.007a3250 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412152652.00b0fdb0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412145128.007b0770 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412125121.00b0c6e4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412104605.0079aa20 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"_aTWL1.0.NL.EKr4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26880 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:52 4/13/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Well, the calorimetry sounded a lot better when Russ and Mike >described it. Now that I've got my foot in the door, I'd like to make you a proposition, Jed. We share the same goal, here...to bring cold fusion to commercial reality. Until some unimaginable breakthrough occurs, Pd-D2O systems aren't going to get us there....but Case's experiment just might. It already passes the test that Pd-D2O fails so miserably: reproducibility. Let's work together to find out if Case's experiment is really producing excess heat. If it is not, we can all scratch it off the list and continue the search elsewhere. However, if it IS, then we can FINALLY begin in earnest on the long-anticipated commercialization process. My part of the bargain is the calorimetry. I will travel to Case's house with my portable water-flow calorimeter, construct on-site a custom heat exchanger from Cu tubing that will completely enclose his entire apparatus so that only the heater power cord and the gas manifold pipe leads into it (~4 hours). I will then perform a series of ACCURATE calorimetric measurements while Case HIMSELF operates HIS OWN apparatus (~1-2 days). First, we will be able to demonstrate that the calorimeter reads correctly when hydrogen gas is in the vessel. After all the varied devices I've tested with this calorimeter, I am 100% certain that this measurement will come out right on the money. Next, Case can change the gas to deuterium and tweak the system until he is seeing his excess temperature effect. Then we can look over at my instruments and see the TRUTH. Just in case the results are negative, we will include in the enclosure a small test heater, say 5 watts, to simulate excess heat. If the apparatus is full of deuterium, and Case is seeing his effect, and my readings are showing Pout = Pin, then we can turn on the little test heater. My readings will then change to Pout = Pin + test heater, proving WITHOUT A DOUBT that my calorimeter is accurate and that Case's experiment does not produce excess heat. Hopefully this last step will NOT be necessary...I just included it to show that the results of this test WILL BE DEFINITIVE...no matter what the outcome. Your part of the bargain is public relations. Most importantly, you need to convince Case to participate. Second, I want you to invite a panel of observers to the test. I want technical experts, such as Ed Wall, who can critically review my measurement procedures. I want science reporters, such as yourself, who will convey the results of the test far and wide so that all may know the outcome. I could go on to talk about WHAT we would do if the tests are positive but, from reading your posts these past years, I know that you don't need any help in that department. This thing would take off like aviation did after the Wright brothers. What about it, Jed? Do you want to jack around for months and months, wondering if it's real...struggling to get your own replication cell going....struggling to get reliable calorimetry going...or would you like to just NAIL THIS DOWN NOW? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 13 08:31:27 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA21997; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:24:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:24:06 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990413112213.00b1ce80 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:22:13 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990413093043.00b0c5cc mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990413085248.007a0aa0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412174432.00b18604 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412171348.007a3250 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412152652.00b0fdb0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412145128.007b0770 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412125121.00b0c6e4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412104605.0079aa20 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"FHXuD1.0.dN5.M6s4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26881 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:30 AM 4/13/99 -0500, Scott Little wrote: >At 08:52 4/13/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote: >>Well, the calorimetry sounded a lot better when Russ and Mike >>described it. > >Now that I've got my foot in the door, I'd like to make you a proposition, >Jed. >We share the same goal, here...to bring cold fusion to commercial reality. >Until some unimaginable breakthrough occurs, Pd-D2O systems aren't going to >get us there....but Case's experiment just might. It already passes the >test that Pd-D2O fails so miserably: reproducibility. Stated but unproven. There have been more reproductions of PD-D2O systems, than there have been for Earthtech's "remote viewing" technology. >Let's work together to find out if Case's experiment is really producing >excess heat. If it is not, we can all scratch it off the list and continue >the search elsewhere. However, if it IS, then we can FINALLY begin in >earnest on the long-anticipated commercialization process. Scott, you should go back to your KS-beads and do it right, since you purport interest in the field. You will develop technique and may also earn that respect that may make more researchers in cold fusion elect to work with you. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 13 10:11:26 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA26800; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:07:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:07:57 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990413130604.00b17160 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:06:04 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Gary Taube In-Reply-To: <37001D2D.721B ix.netcom.com> References: <36FEBCCB.7FC3 keelynet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"B99kv.0.cY6.idt4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26882 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:39 PM 3/29/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote: >To: Jerry W. Decker >> There are many interesting anomalies but as I see it, without the >> transmutation effect, you don't get the anomalous heat. >> >> With the transmutation effect, the elemental pollution eventually kills >> the effect. > >Not demonstrated and probably not an important consideration when the >proper method is used. >Ed Storms Also, there may be a separate optimal operating point for each of the reactions [Swartz, M, 1998, "Optimal Operating Point Characteristics of Nickel Light Water Experiments", Proceedings of ICCF-7; Swartz, M, 1998, Improved Electrolytic Reactor Performance Using pi-Notch System Operation and Gold Anodes, Transactions of the American Nuclear Association, Nashville, Tenn 1998 Meeting, (ISSN:0003-018X publisher LaGrange, Ill) 78, 84-85]. . Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 13 10:16:55 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA30237; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:14:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:14:37 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990413121541.00b17e78 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:15:41 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990413112213.00b1ce80 world.std.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990413093043.00b0c5cc mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990413085248.007a0aa0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412174432.00b18604 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412171348.007a3250 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412152652.00b0fdb0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412145128.007b0770 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412125121.00b0c6e4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412104605.0079aa20 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"iE8C7.0.LO7.yjt4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26883 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:22 4/13/99 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote: >>....but Case's experiment just might. It already passes the >>test that Pd-D2O fails so miserably: reproducibility. > Stated but unproven. It's not my statement. It's Fleischmann's statment. It's McKubre's statement. And lot's of folks have proved it. McKubre, for example, has logged over 200,000 hours (e.g. 22 years!!) of null result from the Pd-D2O system. >....for Earthtech's "remote viewing" technology. There is no "EarthTech remote viewing technology". That was a secret gov't project that Hal was involved in many years ago. It's over. We don't have anything to do with it anymore. I'm not interested in it. >Scott, you should go back to your KS-beads and do it right, since >you purport interest in the field. There is no reason to suspect that the KS beads ever made excess heat. CETI can't get their own beads to work anymore. Why would you even BEGIN to suspect that Kirk Shanahan's off-the-wall replication effort would succeed!? You have made a mountain out of a 30 milliwatt molehill that was an accidental positive offset that occurred in a calorimeter designed for 100 times that power level. Forget it, OK? Case is reporting a signal hundreds of times larger. Please join me in my campaign to find out whether his effect is real excess heat. I would greatly appreciate you attending the tests as a judge of my calorimetry. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 13 10:27:06 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA02718; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:22:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:22:47 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990413132108.007a3ce0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:21:08 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Case Contributions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8WcQN.0.Ig.drt4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26884 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little writes: Until some unimaginable breakthrough occurs, Pd-D2O systems aren't going to get us there but Case's experiment just might. It already passes the test that Pd-D2O fails so miserably: reproducibility. I think that is an overstatement. Pd-D2O is not promising, but I think four techniques are worth investigating: thin films, Case, Arata, and Stringham's sonofusion. Reproducibility has not been proved yet with Case, and it has certainly not "failed" with Pd-D2O. That's absurd. If you define a "replication" as "significant excess heat" then bulk Pd CF is way ahead of transistor reproducibility circa 1960, or integrated circuit reproducibility in 1985, when more than 50% of the die yield had to be scrapped (See S. Lohr, New York Times, December 3, 1995). I think any expert who conscientiously follows the procedures spelled out by Storms will see significant excess heat with bulk palladium maybe 3 times out of 4. It might take a year or two to learn the techniques, but after all, it cost ~$1 trillion and it took 30 years to achieve 50% reproducibility in integrated circuits. Reproducibility is a frustrating fact of life, but it is not miserable and certainly not unprecedented. It is a lot easier to make CF cathode than the new brakes I had installed in the Chevy yesterday. You could set up a CF cathode factory for a fraction of the cost of the GM brake manufacturing plant. People have not done that for two reasons: 1. The cathodes would have low power density, great variability, and little direct commercial value. It would make more sense to invest in research. 2. Many people, including you, do not understand what "reproducibility" means or how difficult it is to produce any machines or goods. By the standards you and Dick Blue propose, oranges cease to exist after every crop failure, and transistors did not exist in 1985 when half of them refused to work. That is, memory chips did not memorize; CPUs did not compute. Variability in performance is another problem. Intel sells 350, 400 and 450 megahertz versions of its processors mainly because they do not all work properly at 450 MHz, and nobody knows why. Functional rejects are sold for use at the lower clock speed. You and Blue really should get into the orange growing business for a reality check. If you think cold fusion is difficult, try "replicating" a warehouse full of oranges in a bad year. You could join me this summer on the farm . . . You would have a big advantage pruning the trees. Let's work together to find out if Case's experiment is really producing excess heat. You would have to speak with Case about this proposal. It has nothing to do with me, and I have little influence with the man. He is spending most of his time working with the large Dewar flask. I'm afraid it may not work because hydrogen may the leaking into the vacuum. That's what McKubre and others think. My part of the bargain is the calorimetry. I do not think Case wants help in calorimetry. If he gets the thing to self-sustain he will need no help, obviously. What about it, Jed? Do you want to jack around for months and months, wondering if it's real...struggling to get your own replication cell going....struggling to get reliable calorimetry going...or would you like to just NAIL THIS DOWN NOW? Well, I have great confidence in SRI. I'm sure they will nail it down sooner than I could, and possibly sooner than Case himself. I fear they will not share the details of their results, but they will report one way or the other, and if they say they are sure, I will have no doubts about it. Furthermore, Russ George is arranging tests at other prestigious West Coast labs, so I do not see why you or I should spend time on this. We cannot make it happen any faster, unless you happen to have a few million dollars handy. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 13 11:40:32 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA00568; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:33:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:33:15 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990413133417.00b113ac mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:34:17 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990413132108.007a3ce0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"e3Ys52.0.m8.htu4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26885 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 13:21 4/13/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote: >>...or would you like to just NAIL THIS DOWN NOW? > >Well, I have great confidence in SRI. I'm sure they will nail it down >sooner than I could, and possibly sooner than Case himself. I fear they >will not share the details of their results, but they will report one way >or the other, and if they say they are sure, I will have no doubts about >it. Furthermore, Russ George is arranging tests at other prestigious West >Coast labs, so I do not see why you or I should spend time on this. We >cannot make it happen any faster, unless you happen to have a few million >dollars handy. I can't believe my eyes. Up until I read this, I always thought you were probably sane. I'll just have to go it on my own. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 13 11:57:46 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA04512; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:45:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:45:32 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990413144322.00b22b40 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:43:22 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990413121541.00b17e78 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990413112213.00b1ce80 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19990413093043.00b0c5cc mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990413085248.007a0aa0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412174432.00b18604 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412171348.007a3250 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412152652.00b0fdb0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412145128.007b0770 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412125121.00b0c6e4 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990412104605.0079aa20 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"umSUA3.0.O61.B3v4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26886 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >>>....but Case's experiment just might. It already passes the >>>test that Pd-D2O fails so miserably: reproducibility. > >At 11:22 4/13/99 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote: >> Stated but unproven. > At 12:15 PM 4/13/99 -0500, Scott Little wrote: >It's not my statement. It's Fleischmann's statment. It's McKubre's >statement. And lot's of folks have proved it. McKubre, for example, has >logged over 200,000 hours (e.g. 22 years!!) of null result from the Pd-D2O >system. That is not what either of them have said. Both have gotten positive results with Pd-D2O -- as have others, Scott. Seems that you focus on parts of sentences which you like, but ignore the rest - and ithe science. ======================================================== >>....for Earthtech's "remote viewing" technology. > >There is no "EarthTech remote viewing technology". That was a secret gov't >project that Hal was involved in many years ago. It's over. Not too secret, as its on the internet now. > We don't have >anything to do with it anymore. I'm not interested in it. I gather you think it doesnt work, despite the claims. ======================================================== >>Scott, you should go back to your KS-beads and do it right, since >>you purport interest in the field. > >There is no reason to suspect that the KS beads ever made excess heat. No. Even your data shows possible evidence of excess heat at lower power drive. Too bad you never had any serious interest in science which would have required you to state a hypothesis and reexamine it. I think you will find that scientists in science often have done the same experiment scores of times. If you just don't have the rigor to even look, let alone go back and do it correctly, then your repeatedly 'negative' but unfounded comments are only making 'heat' rather than creating 'light' on the situation. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 13 13:17:11 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA09451; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:10:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:10:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3713A4EF.959685FA ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:11:28 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Vortex-L eskimo.com" Subject: A Supplement to the Science Friday Cold Fusion presentation on NPR web. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"S6f33.0.ZJ2.uIw4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26887 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: April 13, 1999 Vortex, A visit to NPR's <> lsit three links to the cold fusion subject. The page's color picture shows a P&F bottle that seems to come straight out of a coverof an issue of IE. Take note 'Gene! :) 1. Saturna Technologies' website link represents the positive representation for Cold Fusion. <> 2. Cornell University's STS (Science & Technologies Studies) website for cold fusion supposedly serves to represent the neutral representation. <> 3. Scientific American's website <> asks about the current status of cold fusion and the several supposedly represents the negative views. Interestingly. one of the comments was made by Michael J. Schaffer of San Diego (of General Atomics) who appearred with Russ George in the April 9th NPR Science Friday Interview by Ira Flatow.. He gave an extended, open moderate view in contrast to ones made by Douglas Morrison, Peter N. Saeta, and Robert Heeter. A refernce to Saturna Technologies' website has been made before so it will not be elaborated here. And the third link to Scientific American is interesting if not stale for the critics' opinions. The second link: Cornell University's Dept. of Science and Technology Study (STS) report of "S&TS GAS" <> is most interesting reading. It tries to encapsulate the 'cold fusion story' in its lengthy presentation. The GAS acronym is for Game, Analysis, and Story. More properly the acronym should be SAG for proper sequence of presentation --- I think. The Story section (S) presents 16 screen page story and 6 pages of refernes of "STS Cold Fusion GAS Story centering from the 1995 ICCF-5 conference in Monaco with past references. Nothing much about really graspiing what was happenning in the field since 1995 including the several publications and websites and this Vortex on cold fusion. The Analysis section (A) presents an extended analysis of the cold fusion story organized around 'nine conceptual issues': 1. Replication <> 2. Paradigm <> 3. Science Norms <> 4. Fraud <> 5. Credibility <> 6. Public Communication of Science and Technology <> 7. Scientific Funding <> 8. Rhetoric <> 9. Computer Mediated Communication <> simulates a simple game of choices in cold fusion experiments and findings to illustrate the 'cold fusion story'. There are several dated deficiencies in the presentation but interesting nonetheless and contents are applicable to science and scientists in general.. It welcomes input to Trevor Pinch (<>). -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 13 13:51:19 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA24393; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:47:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:47:40 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990413164721.007aba70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:47:21 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Case Contributions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"tsxFI2.0.zy5.irw4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26888 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little says "Pd-D2O fails so miserably" in reproducibility, and he attributes this idea to Fleischmann, McKubre and other folks: McKubre, for example, has logged over 200,000 hours (e.g. 22 years!!) of null result from the Pd-D2O system. Yo! Scott: Don't forget there were hundreds of hours of positive results mixed in with those 200,000 hours! Every time you bring this up you neglect to mention that critical fact. That is like describing the first two years of Edison's incandescent light R&D by saying: "he ran hundreds of bulbs with null results." Right, but don't forget he also ran a few that worked. You are making the same mistake the Scientific Establishment made when it said: "Look at all those null experiments! 200,000 hours of feeble glowing, broken glass, explosions, a fire in the parlor, and four major redesignes compared to an hour of light," to paraphrase, or to quote the actual words of the Scientific American, this research is "a public calamity." Except that IT WORKED! You look at the 200,000 hours, the broken glass, the fire in the parlor (which Mrs. Edison extinguished), and you somehow fail to see that THE THING WORKED. Anyway, McKubre could easily improve these numbers with the knowledge we have today, by following the Storms protocols more closely. I do not think he sees any benefit in repeating a difficult experiment even though it has become somewhat less difficult. He has proved the point already; he is looking for easier methods. This is a sensible course of action. More to the point, your statements are illogical. Let me return to my agricultural analogy. It takes 5 years to grow an orange or an apple tree before it bears fruit. That's 5 years without a crop. When you plant an orchard with 100 trees, that's 500 years growing time! When you grow from seeds (which nobody does except Johnny Appleseed), you may have to sow 100 seeds to get one viable tree. So, by your standard, fruit does not exist because it takes 10,000 attempts and 500 years latency time to grow an apple. Right? It takes weeks to load a bulk palladium cathode, just as it takes weeks before an apple seed sprouts. The CF experiment does not begin for the first 300 hours, so you can subtract most of those 200,000 hours. This is time-to-fabricate. In most cases, the CF experiment never begins; the cathode never loads; the seed never germinates, as it were. You may have to plant a dozen seeds before one will grow. You may have to load a dozen cathodes. By the Scott Little standard, we tally up seeds and count how many years it takes to grow an orchard, and we conclude that agriculture is pathological science and fruit is irreproducible. Or we conclude that airplanes are never shot down because most anti-aircraft shells miss the target. The fact that these processes statistically fail more often than they succeed does not *in any way* indicate the phenomena do not exist. It has no bearing on reproducibility in the scientific sense (or the commercial sense, when it comes to apples). It is not "difficult" to replicate an apple when you plant thousands of seeds and wait a decade. It is not difficult to replicate cold fusion when you do what Fleischmann did, and you run 64 cathodes at a time, six times a year, for five years. It was not difficult to replicate transistors in 1955: you would manufacture 1000, ten would work, and the rest would go in the trash. Cold fusion is easy to reproduce if you resort to expensive, brute force, wasteful, hit-or-miss methods. Suppose we had $200 million dollars. We could produce thousands of good cathodes -- guaranteed. The methods were worked out years ago. This would be a useless tour de force, like the hot fusion program, but it could be done. Each cathode would cost a small fortune, and most would produce only low-level 20 to 30% excess. I could think of better ways to spend R&D money, if there was any R&D money. This project would only prove what we already know, and it would not convince confirmed skeptics such as you, Dick Blue or Huizenga. If you could be convinced by thousands of high sigma positive results from quality labs . . . you would have been convinced in 1992, when McKubre, Miles, Storms, Bockris and others published. The tritium results from the National Cold Fusion Institute, Los Alamos or TAMU would have convinced you. You did not believe it then and you would not believe it now, even if 10,000 more experts reported equally compelling results. So there would be no point to launching a gigantic, brute force project to replicate bulk Pd-D2O CF on a large scale. Here is one more important and often misunderstood point. It takes years to grow an apple tree large enough to harvest edible fruit. While the tree is small, it may bear a handful of apples, but the crows will eat them before you get a chance to harvest any. An experimentalist might say the volume of fruit is not significant. By the same token, there is always excess heat in a highly loaded cold fusion cathode -- the experiment always works -- but the signal may be below the limits of detection. You can confirm that the cathode was in the nuclearactive state later, by performing an autoradiograph or finding transmutations. Elsewhere, you write: Please join me in my campaign to find out whether his effect is real excess heat. We do not need a campaign. We have SRI working on this. What more could you ask for? No other lab in the world is half as qualified. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 13 14:15:03 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA21233; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:13:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:13:28 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990413171306.007a87b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:13:06 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990413133417.00b113ac mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990413132108.007a3ce0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"k4pA82.0.eB5.sDx4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26889 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little writes: >I can't believe my eyes. Up until I read this, I always thought you were >probably sane. I do not understand. Why I am insane? Because I think SRI can do a better job of calorimetry than we can?!? They have the best equipment money can buy and 200,000 hours of experience -- as Scott points out. Furthermore, as Ed Wall and I have clearly stated, we ARE working this experiment, with cooperation from Les Case. We are also doing many other equally important, equally promising experiments, as I.E. readers know, including ones we are paid to do, which must be given higher priority. We could use a staff of 50 people but we have only Ed Wall . . . and me doing a little Delphi Pascal control programming from a distance. We do our best we can with limited resources. I do not see how anyone can critisize. Okay, it is foolhardy, obsessive or quixotic perhaps, but not insane. >I'll just have to go it on my own. Yes, that is what I said: you must contact Case directly. I think I made that quite clear. I have no influence over him. If I had, he would have hired experts to work on his large Dewar cell instead of trying to reinvent the wheel. It has taken him more than a year to do a job that an expert engineering firm could manage in a few weeks, and I think he may be making serious mistakes. He has plenty of money so he could easily farm out the work, and he realizes that he would instantly attract millions of dollars in investment capital if he succeeds, but he does not act on this knowledge. These are symptoms of the Inventor's Disease. This is typical obstinate, self-destructive behavior. I can diagnose the problem, but I cannot cure it. Anyway, compared to Mills, the Correas and many others Who Shall Remain Nameless, Les Case is a paragon of good thinking and positive action. At least he does not snarl at people who want to give him money! He may succeed despite his limitations. All we can do is wait, and hope. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 13 16:35:06 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA05483; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:32:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:32:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3713D4A9.79F7866 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:35:09 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chemical catalysis and CF References: <3.0.1.32.19990412145848.0079b550 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xt41-2.0.WL1.zFz4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26890 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms discounts the hypothesis that D2 recombination is essential > to the CF effect: > > . . . the claim that recombination is important based on the > effect of thiourea makes no sense. Thiourea has many other > effects besides blocking recombination. > > In addition, recombination does not occur in the Case or Arata > cells yet a nuclear reaction is produced. > > I'm not sure about that. I suppose D2 formation must occur in a gas cell > when there is an exchange of gas going into lattice while other gas > emerges. I believe Arata's theory holds that the deuterons crawl around the > edges without forming D2 . . . but perhaps that has not been proved to > everyone's satisfaction. McKubre says that high flux or change in loading > is a control parameter that increases the rate of the CF reaction. > > By the way, I did not mean to defend this hypothesis, but only to mention it. Jed, Lets explore this a little further. In an electrolytic cell, two routes for D2 loss exist. Formation of D2 takes place in cracks and it takes place on the surface. D2 formation in cracks is unaffected by the electrolyte or surface impurities while the opposite is true of surface recombination. Unfortunately, most palladium loses most of its D2 from cracks. Hence, addition of surface-recombination-blockers, such as thiourea or aluminum, will have limited effect on most palladium. On the other hand, if cracks are absent and most of the recombination takes place on the surface, the surface composition can be increased by these materials. Most palladium has a mixture of these routes with a wide variation across the surface. Consequently, addition of impurities will have a complex effect such that the actual process can not be determined. A gas loaded sample will take up deuterium until it is in equilibrium with the surrounding gas. After that condition is reached, any gas exchange to form D2 from dissolved ions will only take place on the surface and only at a very slow rate. Impurities on the surface will reduce the rate even further. On the other hand, the temperature gradient which is apparently required in the Case cell will promote ion transport with a resulting increased recombination. Whether the temperature gradient is required to promote recombination or to continuously clean the surface of impurities is the question which has not been answered. I would put my money on the latter process. I suggest the cleaner the gas used in the Case cell, the less a temperature gradient will be required. Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 13 19:01:19 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA19179; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:57:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:57:57 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990414095827.00a12640 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:58:27 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, hheffner@mtaonline.net From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"o8woy2.0.bh4.bO_4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26891 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >Russ George is claiming not only excess heat but a self sustaining reaction >at 350 deg. C. He posted pictures and a description of his 4HE experiment >on his web page. Maybe he will supply info or access to his >self-susatiner? It's not likely, but you never know until you ask. I am surprised there was no follow up on this statement by Horace. It seems that if a self-sustainer exists (or existed) that calorimetry is not so important ? So how about some more details on this self-sustainer Horace - for instance what is the 350 deg C ? Does the whole apparatus have to be held in an ambient of 350, or is 350 the temperature at the reaction centre while the outside of the dewar (or whatever) is all at room temperature ? How reliable is this information (recalling Jed's "superb" calorimetry)? Could you have misinterpreted something he described ? Also a pointer to Russ George's website would save having to search for it. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 13 19:22:37 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA28498; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:19:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:19:35 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990413221752.00c2f520 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:17:52 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990414095827.00a12640 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"NxWTZ2.0.6z6.ti_4t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26892 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:58 AM 4/14/99 +0800, John Winterflood wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >>Russ George is claiming not only excess heat but a self sustaining reaction >>at 350 deg. C. He posted pictures and a description of his 4HE experiment >>on his web page. Maybe he will supply info or access to his >>self-susatiner? It's not likely, but you never know until you ask. > >I am surprised there was no follow up on this statement by Horace. >It seems that if a self-sustainer exists (or existed) that >calorimetry is not so important ? > >So how about some more details on this self-sustainer Horace - for >instance what is the 350 deg C ? Does the whole apparatus have to >be held in an ambient of 350, or is 350 the temperature at the >reaction centre while the outside of the dewar (or whatever) is all >at room temperature ? How reliable is this information (recalling >Jed's "superb" calorimetry)? Could you have misinterpreted >something he described ? > >Also a pointer to Russ George's website would save having to search >for it. Try the Cold Fusion Times web site: http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 13 22:18:52 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA18626; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:17:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:17:45 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <58eff811.24457ebd aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:16:45 EDT Subject: Re: H2K- Joule Heater / Wattmeter. To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: Verdian aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"R_dYT2.0.yY4.vJ25t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26893 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, I constructed a 250 watt 1 ohm load using ten 10 ohm resistors to check the watt-hour meter characteristics at low voltage inputs I will need to run using the tube joule heater calibration. Here are the results: ( W is watt-hour meter reading ) ============================ V----------15.00 A----------15.00 V*I-------225.00 W--------257.51 W / (V*I)-------------1.14 ================== V----------13.30 A----------13.30 V*I-------176.89 W--------198.56 W / (V*I)-------------1.12 ================== V----------10.05 A----------10.05 V*I-------101.00 W--------110.60 W / (V*I)-------------1.09 ================== V------------8.90 A------------8.90 V*I--------79.21 W---------84.78 W / (V*I)-------------1.07 ================== V------------7.80 A------------7.80 V*I---------60.84 W----------66.28 W / (V*I)-------------1.08 ================== V-------------7.10 A-------------7.10 V*I---------50.41 W----------51.42 W / (V*I)-------------1.02 ================== V-------------6.10 A-------------6.10 V*I----------37.21 W-----------37.19 W / (V*I)-------------0.99 ================== V--------------4.90 A--------------4.90 v*I------------24.01 W------------22.22 W / (V*I)-------------0.92 ================== V--------------4.00 A--------------4.00 V*I-----------16.00 W------------13.33 W / (V*I)-------------0.83 ================== I reran the 10 ampere test at the end of the series. ================== V-------------10.08 A-------------10.08 V*I----------101.60 W-----------110.22 W / (V*I)-------------1.08 Possible problems with this test. The resistors were WIREWOUND 10 ohm 25 watt square ceramic types. Wirewound means inductive, right? At least the pure resistive tests using incandescent lamps were much closer in V*I to wattmeter readings. The joule heater in the tube is a 30 turn coil of nichrome wire approx. 1/8 in dia to fit inside the quartz tube and has a cold resistance of 1.0 ohm. I worry that it's inductance may skew V*I readings but we shall see. The old joule heater was a 12 turn coil with a resistance of 0.5 ohm. Scott had said that the inductance of this was not a problem. (micro-henrys I think). More tomorrow. Watch the "Reply To" line in my posts, they don't point to Vortex. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 13 22:58:28 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA26287; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:54:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:54:57 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990414005800.008d3100 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:58:00 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990413164721.007aba70 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"UOI6_3.0.aQ6.ms25t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26894 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:47 PM 4/13/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Yo! Scott: Don't forget there were hundreds of hours of positive results >mixed in with those 200,000 hours! Everybody present is well aware of McKubre's positive results. It's the positive/negative ratio that counts. It is so small (~0.001) that the Pd-D2O excess heat effect cannot be studied...at least not at SRI. >Anyway, McKubre could easily improve these numbers with the knowledge we >have today, by following the Storms protocols more closely. You're implying that Ed Storms knows how to reproduce the Pd-D2O excess heat effect? That's news to me. I'm well aware of his HYPOTHESES about what it takes to ENABLE the excess heat effect but that's a far cry from actually obtaining excess heat reproducibly. A while back, I made Ed a friendly wager that he would never see substantially the same significant excess heat signal (at least 10% excess) in both channels of his new dual-method calorimeter. He has not called to collect on this bet...and I genuinely wish he would. I believe he took a break from CF this fall-winter. How about it, Ed? Are you running again now? Have you won the bet? >I do not understand. Why I am insane? I'm sorry, it was just the shock of seeing Jed-WrightBrothers-ThomasEdison-Entrepreneur-Capitalist-Rothwell say he'd rather wait for SRI and Russ George to confirm what might well be the best chance at CF success that's ever come along!!! Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 13 23:08:13 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA28078; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 23:02:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 23:02:03 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990414010505.008dba20 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:05:05 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990414095827.00a12640 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"NbPGl1.0.es6.Qz25t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26895 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:58 AM 4/14/99 +0800, John Winterflood wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >>Russ George is claiming not only excess heat but a self sustaining reaction >>at 350 deg. C. >I am surprised there was no follow up on this statement by Horace. I asked Horace about it privately and he quoted a passage from one of Russ's recent publicities where Russ said something like, "the reaction will self-sustain". Best we can figure is that Russ was using the word "will" provocatively. Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 00:02:38 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA04972; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:02:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:02:05 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:14:28 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Case Contributions Resent-Message-ID: <"t0Npm3.0.YD1.jr35t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26896 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:58 AM 4/14/99, John Winterflood wrote: [snip] >So how about some more details on this self-sustainer Horace - for >instance what is the 350 deg C ? Does the whole apparatus have to >be held in an ambient of 350, or is 350 the temperature at the >reaction centre while the outside of the dewar (or whatever) is all >at room temperature ? How reliable is this information (recalling >Jed's "superb" calorimetry)? Could you have misinterpreted >something he described ? > >Also a pointer to Russ George's website would save having to search >for it. My reference is to the claim, quoted below, in Connie Hargrave's 4/3/99 interview of Russ George for Share International (SI). Here is the reference to that SI interview that Scott Little earlier provided to vortex: Here is a quote of the relevant material: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - SI: How close are we to having practical applications from this discovery? RG: In my current experiments, I am using a regular gas cylinder filled with hydrogen gas and some active materials, and it just heats up. The more volume you use, the hotter it gets. This reaction will keep going indefinitely. The cylinder is typical of any used for compressed gas, such as a tank used at an amusement park for filling balloons with helium. The only difference is that this cylinder will maintain a temperature of about 250C or 400F almost for ever. SI: The materials will not be used up, nor are they too expensive? RG: No. A fusion reaction can produce heat for centuries without "using up" the materials. The reaction uses 'heavy hydrogen' which, like hydrogen, is an abundant element in the universe. This reaction also works with other materials " some just work better than others "so no-one will be able to monopolize the materials to make exclusive profits. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - I suppose there are other interpretations of the quote, but the quote seems unreasonable to me unless it implies a self sustaining reaction. Also, perhaps the quote was botched by SI. Perhaps there is a Clintonism in the use of the word "will." Maybe it means "will" in the future sense, like "will if I am lucky enough to get the thing working as hoped," not will as in the more typical scientific sense "has and should continue to" or will in the more certain enginneering sense "can be expected to with the certainty of accepted engineering principles." The phrase "will maintain a temperature of 250C" implies to me that it is an accomplished and measured fact in this case because making such a precise statement in the popular media regarding such a nebulous, unaccepted, and quack filled field as free energy might be deemed less than responsible, unless it references experimental results. In the interview Russ Gerorge seems to be speaking with the certainty of an accomplished fact so that is the interpretation I have taken. The other earlier experiment is described in the following: At 10:33 PM 4/7/99, Akira Kawasaki wrote: [snip] >Russ George has posted at his Saturna Technologies website his full >presentation of the Case replication effort conducted in July, 1998 with >graphs and picutres with credits distributed properly. You can see his >cells used in the experiment. It is different than what Case >constructed. This was what was to be prented at the APS if given proper >opportunity and time rather then the truncated one. I think a viewing >and reading of his post is called for by the Vortex membership and >others. ><> Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 00:26:19 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA10066; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:23:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:23:47 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:36:11 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Case Contributions Resent-Message-ID: <"KiULW.0.BT2.3A45t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26897 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I should have also noted that when Russ George says: "In my current experiments, I am using a regular gas cylinder filled with hydrogen gas and some active materials, and it just heats up," there is no mention of heater coils. That implies to me a self-sustainer. "It just heats up" means it just heats up all by itself. For example, it is nonsensical to use the phrase "it just heats up" about, say, a pot on the stove, because the pot doesn't just heat up, it is heated up by the burner. As Scott points out, Russ George could simply be chosing his words provocatively. If that's the case he was successful. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 05:48:30 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA12123; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 05:45:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 05:45:09 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990414084314.00c3c030 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:43:14 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990414005800.008d3100 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990413164721.007aba70 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"zw-4u2.0.1z2.Kt85t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26898 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 04:47 PM 4/13/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote: >>Yo! Scott: Don't forget there were hundreds of hours of positive results >>mixed in with those 200,000 hours! At 12:58 AM 4/14/99 -0500, Scott Little wrote: >Everybody present is well aware of McKubre's positive results. It's the >positive/negative ratio that counts. It is so small (~0.001) that the >Pd-D2O excess heat effect cannot be studied...at least not at SRI. This is nonsense. Even if the ratio is that small (is it?), it is comparable (or greater) than the ratio of gold mines to all of Earth's dry surface. So according to this logic, if one finds that gold mines only exist at the 0.1% level (and they are quire rarer), then they "cannot be studied". They can. There is no doubt that good science and engineering take hard work. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 06:24:10 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA24982; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 06:23:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 06:23:01 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990414082256.00b0e990 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:22:56 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990414084314.00c3c030 world.std.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19990414005800.008d3100 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990413164721.007aba70 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"O1UcD1.0.G66.qQ95t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26899 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:43 4/14/99 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote: >>...the Pd-D2O excess heat effect cannot be studied...at least not at SRI. >This is nonsense. Even if the ratio is that small (is it?), it is >comparable (or greater) than the ratio of gold mines to all of >Earth's dry surface. So according to this logic, if one finds that >gold mines only exist at the 0.1% level (and they are quire rarer), >then they "cannot be studied". They can. That's a inappropriate analogy, Mitchell. When you find a gold mine, you've got it. It stays right where you found it and you can send any number of geologists out there to study it. You can even dig up the gold and sell it! The excess heat phenomenon is ephemeral. You run hundreds of cells for months and months and then one shows an excess heat signal for a few days. You consult your records to find out what was different about that cell and immediately construct a dozen more just like it. Chances are that NONE of them will show excess heat. You are essentially unable to correlate the cell parameters with the excess heat phenomenon. THAT is what I mean by "cannot be studied". Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 07:29:56 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA15735; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 07:29:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 07:29:03 -0700 Message-ID: <3714A3DF.4B37FE62 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:19:17 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Case Contributions References: <3.0.5.32.19990414005800.008d3100 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Mumi9.0.nr3.lOA5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26900 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > A while back, I made Ed a friendly wager that he would never see > substantially the same significant excess heat signal (at least 10% excess) > in both channels of his new dual-method calorimeter. He has not called to > collect on this bet...and I genuinely wish he would. I believe he took a > break from CF this fall-winter. How about it, Ed? Are you running again > now? Have you won the bet? > Yes Scott, I have been studying the effect but such work is very slow. I can plate various thickness of Pd on Pt which I then try to load to the required high values. Unfortunately, I only have one loading cell (all I can afford) and the loading process, which involves plating impurities on the surface, takes much time. Until I can achieve the required conditions, I have not bothered using the calorimeter. Insights are growing but not heat. Until someone is willing to invest in more equipment and in a large supply of palladium, my results will take more time then either of us would like. Meanwhile, Case may stir up interest in the field such that some serious research can be done. Regards, Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 08:35:58 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA09615; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:34:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:34:42 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990414113308.007a2cf0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:33:08 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Case Contributions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"hXUEc1.0.4M2.HMB5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26901 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little writes: You're implying that Ed Storms knows how to reproduce the Pd-D2O excess heat effect? That's news to me. In that case you need to read his paper, "How to Produce the Pons-Fleischmann Effect." Here is the Abstract: Conditions required for producing excess energy in PdD created in an electrolytic cell are described and reasons for their importance are discussed. This difficult to accept effect can now be produced with a high probability for success using the described procedures. Quote: Thanks to a few determined scientists, the important variables are now sufficiently well understood to greatly improve reproducibility. In addition, many reasons for past failures are now understood. Skeptics can, if they wish, demonstrate for themselves the reality of the effect. I'm well aware of his HYPOTHESES about what it takes to ENABLE the excess heat effect but that's a far cry from actually obtaining excess heat reproducibly. No, this is not a theory paper. It describes experimental results with bulk palladium. It might be wrong I suppose, but it is not hypothetical. He thinks he actually obtained excess heat reproducibly. I think so too. It's the positive/negative ratio that counts. It is so small (~0.001) that the Pd-D2O excess heat effect cannot be studied...at least not at SRI. But it WAS studied at SRI!!! Quite successfully! Read their conclusion: EPRI PERSPECTIVE This work confirms the claims of Fleischmann, Pons, and Hawkins of the production of excess heat in deuterium-loaded palladium cathodes at levels too large for chemical transformation. However, the phenomena were obtained in only about half the cells. - McKubre, M. C. H., et al., Development of Advanced Concepts for Nuclear Processes in Deuterated Metals, EPRI TR-104195. That says half the cells, not one in a hundred, as you seem to think. I do not understand where you get your numbers. I suggest you stick to official sources. The problem is that the bulk Pd method costs too much and it takes too long, and more promising methods seem to be available. If the field was properly funded, this would not matter as much. This ratio of yours, even if true, would be meaningless. It is, as I said, like the ratio of seeds to apples; i.e., "If I give you this one seed, what is the chance you will give me an apple grown from it in ten years?" The success rate in the single-seed apple growing experiment is far lower than the rate for good CF cathodes. If the success rate for a given cathode type is low but reasonable (I mean economical), you have load 64 cathodes at one time, or 64,000, or 64 billion. The Arata - Case approach effectively loads billions of cathodes at one time. The excess heat phenomenon is ephemeral. Not according to the official EPRI/SRI report. It concludes: "The effect is thus neither small nor fleeting." You run hundreds of cells for months and months and then one shows an excess heat signal for a few days. The statistics are nothing like that! I cannot imagine where you get those numbers. If you set up a hundred cells for months with properly tested materials and good electrochemistry, you will have many weeks of excess heat signals to work with, and many nuclear products and transmutations. When you set up 100 cells, or a 1000 cells using untested, unprepared palladium, with the wrong grain size and lots of impurities on the surface to block loading, you will not see heat from any one of them. The Japanese NEDO program proved that to everyone's satisfaction. Melvin Miles' statistics prove that the materials are key: Material Success ratio ---------- --------------- NRL-Pd 7/8 JM-Pd 17/28 NRL-Pd batch 2 2/5 Others 0/19 Co-Deposition 2/34 See M. Miles et al., "Anomalous Effects in Deuterated Systems," NAWCWPNS TP 8302, table 10, p. 42. This result, as I have said, cannot be random. You would not see a random distribution like this in the lifetime of the universe. The success ratio for JM Pd supplied by Fleischmann is 4 out of 4. One sample produced 1,400 kJ over 83 days. You consult your records to find out what was different about that cell and immediately construct a dozen more just like it. Chances are that NONE of them will show excess heat. That is not what IMRA reported. They said that nearly all cells showed excess heat. You seem to be making up results as you go along. This reminds me of the people who say the National Institute for Cold Fusion was "a failure." In my opinion, four out of four positive results with "tritium enhanced by a factor of 52" is a success, not a failure. I do not understand why anyone calls this a failure, but people have different standards for judging experiments, I suppose. You are essentially unable to correlate the cell parameters with the excess heat phenomenon. THAT is what I mean by "cannot be studied". That's preposterous. Anyone familiar with the literature knows which "cell parameters" (electrochemical conditions) correlate with excess heat. The conditions for loading, OCV, temperature, flux, grain size and so on are described by McKubre and others in detail. The difficulty is in *achieving* these conditions, not defining them, and not measuring them or recognizing they exist. There is disagreement about the threshold values and the importance of one factor or another, but the general outlines have been clear since 1990, and they are clearer today than they have ever been before. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 10:19:12 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA00982; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:18:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:18:02 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990414131612.00b22ec0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:16:12 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990414082256.00b0e990 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990414084314.00c3c030 world.std.com> <3.0.5.32.19990414005800.008d3100 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990413164721.007aba70 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"GgfeG3.0.BF.AtC5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26902 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >>>...the Pd-D2O excess heat effect cannot be studied...at least not at SRI. >>At 08:43 4/14/99 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote: >>This is nonsense. Even if the ratio is that small (is it?), it is >>comparable (or greater) than the ratio of gold mines to all of >>Earth's dry surface. So according to this logic, if one finds that >>gold mines only exist at the 0.1% level (and they are quire rarer), >>then they "cannot be studied". They can. At 08:22 AM 4/14/99 -0500, Scott Little wrote: >That's a inappropriate analogy, Mitchell. When you find a gold mine, >you've got it. It stays right where you found it and you can send any >number of geologists out there to study it. You can even dig up the gold >and sell it! You didn't answer the mathematical questions. And the analogy seems OK. The same points are true for cold fusion. ======================================== >The excess heat phenomenon is ephemeral. You run hundreds of cells for >months and months and then one shows an excess heat signal for a few days. This is not correct, except perhaps in early-and mid-1989. ======================================== >You consult your records to find out what was different about that cell and >immediately construct a dozen more just like it. Chances are that NONE of >them will show excess heat. You are essentially unable to correlate the >cell parameters with the excess heat phenomenon. THAT is what I mean by >"cannot be studied". This claim is incompatible with the literature and what has happened in this field. People are learning, and are finding improved outputs correlating with such knowledge. Furthermore, Scott, BTW statistics dont apply to single cases such as your gendanken prose above suggests. Finally, the -- admittedly quite complex -- processes can be studied, except of course by those who dont have an interest. ;-)X If one adopted such negative attitudes in other complex situations I doubt inventions such as the intraortic balloon pump would have ever been successfully achieved and applied. It failed on the first dozen individuals before the system was successfully worked out and thereafter routine. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 11:10:15 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA18249; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:05:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:05:47 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:18:08 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Define CF breakthrough experiment? Resent-Message-ID: <"-WLm81.0.3T4.xZD5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26903 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed and Scott appear to be embarking on a rehash of a years old circular argument about repeatability and whether various CF experiments are definitive, constitute proof of CF. Maybe one way to break this old circle of debate is to define the nature of a breakthough CF experiment, or maybe just the criteria for a breakthrough event. It appears that we have had none to date in that CF is not only not accepted as a legitimate topic of study and academic debate, but such debate is even actively suppressed by university and government officials, an act which here in the USA is prohibited by the First Amendment to the US Constitution. I propose that we define the criteria for a breakthrough event and establish a fund for an award to the person or persons who achieve such an event, which perhaps should be called the Cold Fusion Breakthrough, or just the Breakthrough. Here are some misc. thoughts in random order relating to establishing a Breakthrough award, or even just the definition of "Breakthrough": 1. The primary goal should be raising the level of proof to the point where study of cold fusion, or low energy nuclear reactions, is accepted to the point of being mainstream. 2. Sonoluminescence should be excluded, as this is already mainstream, and appears to have the characteristics of hot fusion in termns of neutron production, branching ratios, etc. 3. Striping reactions should be excluded? 4. Stripping, spallation, or fusion reactions excluded above a certain input kinetic energy? 5. A criteria might be official acceptance of the Breakthrough as valid science by historically antagonistic organizations, e.g. DOE, Scientific American, Science, etc. Unfortunately that requires obtaining the attention of such organizations in the first place. 6. Perhaps the event should be release of a commercial product, below some maximum cost, with some specific reliblility criteria above 50 percent, that produces an anomalous CF effect to some specific and strenuous criteria, such as production of excess heat above 30 percent of input for a specified length of time, or heat in excess of chemical possibilities, results to 5 sigma, or transmutation of 10 percent of the nucleii, etc. 7. A self sustaining energy production might be a criteria. 8. Instead of a product, possibly a publication of detailed plans and sources for parts for a device meeting the various criteria would be aceptable? 9. Accessability to the event, even in small academic institutions, is most important. This may be a reason to exclude the use of exotic equipment or high cost items. 10. Who is to judge? 11. Who is to hold the money? 12. How is additional money for the award to be raised? 13. No requirements for disposition of the rights to any discoveries should be a requirement for the award. 14. Muon catalysed fusion should be excluded. 15. The criteria should at least be sufficient to end all reasonable future debate about the question of the existence of LENRs 16. No extraordinary skill should be required for replication, or at least operating a commercially available kit that demonstrates the effect. 17. Perhaps a long existing and highly trusted non-profit organization might be found to manage the prize. 18. The award might be called the Vortex Award? I would be happy to start off a fund for a Breakthough award with a contribution of at least $100. Comments? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 13:00:12 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA29610; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:53:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:53:34 -0700 Message-ID: <3714F295.1A99 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:55:01 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K- Joule Heater / Wattmeter. References: <58eff811.24457ebd aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5V0PH3.0.WE7.z8F5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26904 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram aol.com wrote: > > All, > > I constructed a 250 watt 1 ohm load using ten 10 ohm resistors > to check the watt-hour meter characteristics at low voltage inputs > I will need to run using the tube joule heater calibration. > > Here are the results: (snip results) A few dumb observations and questions, Vince: 1. It seems you used 10, 10 ohm resistors in parallel. 2. I guess they are rated at 25 watts each. 3. Your 257 watt run was at the top of the resistors rating. 4. Your 13.33 watt run was only 1.3 watts per resistor. 5. It seems your currents were calculated using the network as a one- ohm shunt - right? Now, I wonder how "flat" the ohms/temperature curve is for these resistors? Can you put a good ohmmeter on one in both the hot and the cold condition? Do you have a good shunt around to measure current independently of the network? At 60 hertz, I would be surprised if the resistor inductance had any effect. (Someone already said that, right?) If you are using the resistor values to calculate current, I would try to confirm the resistance somehow. How good is your low AC voltage readings? Also, I wonder how well the variac (?) preserves the sinusoidal waveform over the test range? Does anyone else have a feel for this? (The V x I calculation depends on the right RMS value for the waveforms.) A lot of subtle stuff at work here, Vince! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 13:14:11 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA06497; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:10:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:10:19 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990414160151.00b27730 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:01:51 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19990414131612.00b22ec0 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19990414082256.00b0e990 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990414084314.00c3c030 world.std.com> <3.0.5.32.19990414005800.008d3100 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19990413164721.007aba70 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"mOXY91.0.Rb1.hOF5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26905 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:50 PM 4/14/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{It is good as far as it goes, and so are Jed's analogies to orange >growing and microcircuitry chips. Because of these analogies, this has been >a very fruitful and worthwhile discussion. Nevertheless, there is a >difference between the analogs and over-unity cold fusion cathodes--to wit: >we have all had direct experience with the analogs, and thus we have no >doubt of their reality. On the other hand, most of us have *not* had the >opportunity to encounter an over-unity cold fusion cathode, and hence their >existence remains suspect to us. Thus while making such analogies does >serve to undercut Scott's position somewhat, it *does not* provide what we >all really need: a working device which we can get our hands on in the same >way that we can get our hands on an orange, or a CPU chip, or a gold >nugget. The only inexpensive path that, potentially, may lead to such a >device, to my knowledge, is that provided by J. Naudin, who has posted >detailed plans for constructing a working Newman motor on his website. >Otherwise, insofar as devices that we can construct from inexpensive parts >and hope to produce an "over unity" result, I see nothing out there >whatsoever. --Mitchell Jones}*** Good points all. However, how many of us have ever seen a gold mine, a beating heart, a tornado, DNA, a virus, an electron, or a tsunami, either? Are these any less real? Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 14:01:54 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA23582; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:59:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:59:14 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990414160013.00b13b34 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:00:13 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990414113308.007a2cf0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"K-qPT1.0.Mm5.X6G5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26906 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:33 4/14/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Anyone familiar with the literature knows which "cell >parameters" (electrochemical conditions) correlate with excess heat. The >conditions for loading, OCV, temperature, flux, grain size and so on are >described by McKubre and others in detail. The difficulty is in *achieving* >these conditions, not defining them, and not measuring them or recognizing >they exist. There is disagreement about the threshold values and the >importance of one factor or another, but the general outlines have been >clear since 1990, and they are clearer today than they have ever been before. Jed, you are really good at painting a slanted picture of reality. I apologize to the group for even raising this subject with you again. It is not important what I think about the Pd-D2O system...I'll keep my opinions to myself from now on. Let's concentrate on finding a cold fusion demonstration apparatus. Maybe Case's device will do the trick. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 14:18:17 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05860; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990414161408.00b13b34 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:14:08 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: 2nd appeal to Dr. Case Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"QBk8o1.0.LR1.pKG5t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26907 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yesterday I mailed this letter to Dr. Case. If any of you Vorts would like to see his cell in our calorimeter, please write to him and encourage him to cooperate with us. If we are able to confirm that his effect is really excess heat, we will do everything in our power to make development of his discovery proceed at a furious pace. Dr. Les Case P.O. Box 495 Greenland, NH 03840 Dear Dr. Case, Dr. Puthoff and I are intrigued by the fact that you (and others) are continuing to obtain apparently positive results with your unique catalyst cold fusion experiment. If you have really discovered a way to create nuclear fusion with such an elegantly simple apparatus, we have no doubt that your name will go down in history with one of the most important discoveries of all time. We would like to offer again our assistance in the development of your technology. EarthTech's charter is to find a new energy source for mankind. Our sponsor can single-handedly muster the resources to bring your technology from its present form all the way to worldwide deployment. Further, he is uniquely qualified to usher such an unprecedented technology into the world economy without starting World War III...a serious concern when you consider the situation in the Middle East where most of the world's known oil reserves are located. The first step along this path is a confirmation that your "excess temperature" phenomenon is actually excess heat. We have developed a portable water-flow calorimeter (description enclosed http://www.eden.com/~little/vwfc/vwfc.html) that is perfect for this job. In 2 or 3 days, at the location of your choosing, we can perform a series of calorimetric measurements that will reveal precisely how much excess heat your device is producing. My calorimetry will not interfere with the operation of your device. You will be able to operate it exactly as you normally do. When we see your excess temperature effect, we can look over at my instruments to see how many watts of excess heat are being produced; i.e. we will correlate your excess temperature signal with our calorimetrically-determined excess heat measurement. After the tests are completed I will deliver a written report of our findings to you. Assuming the results are positive we will then ask if you would like to meet our sponsor and negotiate an arrangement to develop your discovery. However, you will be under no obligation to do so. Since your experiment is being widely discussed on the Internet in a discussion group called Vortex-L, I have posted a copy of this letter there. A number of cold fusion researchers are either subscribed to this group or regularly receive reports from it. We eagerly await your response. Sincerely, Scott R. Little and Hal Puthoff, Ph.D Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 14:41:34 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA31890; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:38:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:38:24 -0700 Message-ID: <37150A07.EC4D1CD2 ro.com> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:35:04 -0500 From: "Patrick V. Reavis" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: High K dielectrics? References: <371101CB.D85B0FD6 sunherald.infi.net> <3710FDB3.ADD158C0@erie.net> <37111AC5.DE743369@sunherald.infi.net> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xq_N3.0._n7.FhG5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26908 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Kyle R. Mcallister" wrote:
Norm Biss wrote:
>
> Kyle,
> You will have to be a little more specific as to their application.
> I work for an Electric Motor
> Repair Shop, and have or have access to a wide variety of
> dielectrics.  Do you know the class
> of insulator wanted, the form(Tube, sheet, roll, flexible, rigid,
> etc.).

OK:

1. It needs to be in sheet form. Must be flat. Thickness <.25 inches.
2. Dielectric constant must be high >100
3. Used for a capacitor.
4. Breakdown voltage must be greater than 10,000 volts.

Loss, etc, does not matter. The four points above are all that is
important.

Kyle R. Mcallister


Kyle,
What capacitance do you need?  I make caps out of 20 oz soda bottles ( 2 - 3 nF each).

Wrap bottle with aluminum foil, fill bottle with salt water, poke a nail through the lid until it hits the water, charge cap by attaching wires to the nail and to the foil for the electrodes.


I've charged mine to approx. 30,000 volts.  Be _VERY_ careful!  these hold a _LETHAL_ charge.
Always use a shorting bar when not in use
 

--
Regards,
Patrick V. Reavis
http://ro.com/~preavis
http://ro.com/~preavis/Quiz
  From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 14:42:57 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA04489; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:40:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:40:36 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990414173956.0079ea10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:39:56 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Jones' comments on CF demo device Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"koSJ43.0.361.JjG5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26909 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: . . . we have all had direct experience with the analogs, and thus we have no doubt of their reality. On the other hand, most of us have *not* had the opportunity to encounter an over-unity cold fusion cathode, and hence their existence remains suspect to us. Yes, that is natural. It is most regrettable that people have not had a chance to see these things. Much of the blame for this must attach to the cold fusion scientists themselves. We are working hard to bring some to the public, and we will pay top dollar to any cold fusion scientist who is willing to sell us devices for demonstration purposes. However, people should bear in mind that a cold fusion device is about as lively as a melting ice cube. It does not look like much! The ones now available must be installed in calorimeters in order to observe the excess heat. All you see are numbers on the computer screen. If you are not inclined to believe numbers, you will not be convinced by the demonstration. Frankly, I would say that if you are not convinced by the scientific papers by people like McKubre, Huggins and Oriani, you will probably not be convinced by a "live" demonstration either. At this stage, understanding must be cerebral, mediated by instruments. Mitchell Swartz responds: Good points all. However, how many of us have ever seen a gold mine, a beating heart, a tornado, DNA, a virus, an electron, or a tsunami, either? Are these any less real? Excellent point! Some other germane things most people have never seen: Tokamak reactors, thermonuclear bombs, supercomputers, and the Intel Pentium III. No one ever observes a DNA or virus directly. They can only be seen through instruments, and you have to have faith that the instruments are working correctly. In that sense, observing DNA is like observing the excess heat in today's low powered CF devices. If you do not understand or appreciate scientific experiments and you do not understand signal to noise ratios, you will not be convinced. And I think that anyone who does understand these issue would have been convinced back in 1990 when Fritz Will published, so I fear a demo may not convince many people. However, it would only have to convince 100,000 people worldwide to succeed, or one person if he happens to be, let us say, Bill Gates. Naturally, we hope to find more powerful, self-sustaining demo kits, which would be more dramatic, but we will take whatever we can get. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 14:55:37 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA15596; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C0215B19F XCH-CPC-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: H2K- Joule Heater / Wattmeter. Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:03:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2407.0) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"rGQl12.0.cp3.dvG5t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26910 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Variac should not affect the waveforms much. It is just an autotransformer, and if you are working within its amperage range, it should be OK. I too noticed the Amps = Volts, and wondered how he acheived this exactly one ohm over a wide temperature range as the resistors kick out 225 watts. You need to measure both voltage and current at the same time (two meters). You probably should have a fan going too. Also the resistors wont last long at the wattage. Hank > ---------- > From: Francis J. Stenger[SMTP:fstenger interlaced.net] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 1999 12:55 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: H2K- Joule Heater / Wattmeter. > > VCockeram aol.com wrote: > > > > All, > > > > I constructed a 250 watt 1 ohm load using ten 10 ohm resistors > > to check the watt-hour meter characteristics at low voltage inputs > > I will need to run using the tube joule heater calibration. > > > > Here are the results: > > (snip results) > > A few dumb observations and questions, Vince: > > 1. It seems you used 10, 10 ohm resistors in parallel. > 2. I guess they are rated at 25 watts each. > 3. Your 257 watt run was at the top of the resistors rating. > 4. Your 13.33 watt run was only 1.3 watts per resistor. > 5. It seems your currents were calculated using the network as a one- > ohm shunt - right? > > Now, I wonder how "flat" the ohms/temperature curve is for these > resistors? Can you put a good ohmmeter on one in both the hot and the > cold condition? Do you have a good shunt around to measure current > independently of the network? > At 60 hertz, I would be surprised if the resistor inductance had any > effect. (Someone already said that, right?) > If you are using the resistor values to calculate current, I would try > to confirm the resistance somehow. > How good is your low AC voltage readings? Also, I wonder how well the > variac (?) preserves the sinusoidal waveform over the test range? > Does anyone else have a feel for this? (The V x I calculation depends > on the right RMS value for the waveforms.) A lot of subtle stuff at > work here, Vince! > > Frank Stenger > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 15:07:14 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA17294; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990414175914.007adaa0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:59:14 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Case Contributions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"4mGPp1.0.5E4.-_G5t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26911 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little made a technical statement about "cell parameters" which I presume means electrochemical conditions: You are essentially unable to correlate the cell parameters with the excess heat phenomenon. I responded with a 100% technical statement based on the literature: Anyone familiar with the literature knows which "cell parameters" (electrochemical conditions) correlate with excess heat. The conditions for loading, OCV, temperature, flux, grain size and so on are described by McKubre and others in detail. The difficulty is in *achieving* these conditions, not defining them . . . Scott takes offense at this, and disagrees: Jed, you are really good at painting a slanted picture of reality. I apologize to the group for even raising this subject with you again. . . . Scott: What on earth are you talking about?!? Everything I said is spelled out in the basic literature going back to 1989. Read any major author and you will see examples. Control parameters and material conditions are the heart of cold fusion. I do not see one word in my response which is "slanted" in any way, or which misrepresents the literature! On what basis do you dispute these assertions?!? Do you have any specific authors or papers in mind? It is very, very simple. The control parameters are well understood and relatively easy to measure and verify, but extremely difficult to achieve. I do not see how anyone can call this "slanted" or even controversial. These are ABCs of electrochemistry and cold fusion. You can say the same thing for hot fusion, manufacturing integrated circuits, high speed data communications, flying men to the moon, cloning sheep, and countless other high-tech processes. It took millions of dollars and hundreds of failed attempts to clone one sheep. The task was extremely difficult, the parameters very hard to control, and the experiment is not likely to be repeated with sheep for several years. (It turns out mice and primates are easier). - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 15:34:12 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA26471; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:32:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:32:37 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990414173332.00b14610 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:33:32 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990414175914.007adaa0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"YwwKm3.0.JT6.4UH5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26913 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 17:59 4/14/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote: >It is very, very simple. The control parameters are well understood and >relatively easy to measure and verify, but extremely difficult to achieve. >I do not see how anyone can call this "slanted" or even controversial. Jed, if you ever get tired of this science stuff, a lucrative career awaits you as a defense attorney... It's the very fact that you (and others) have pinned the success of a cold fusion experiment on parameters that are almost impossible to achieve that is slanted. In fact, that's a classic symptom of pathological science. You can rant and rave all you want but there is simply not enough data to prove your position. It is still a hypothesis. If things were really as clear-cut as you paint them, cold fusion would not be ignored/shunned/banned by mainstream science. But enough of this! You and I are going to argue this issue until the day we either (1) die or (2) both sit in front of a working CF demonstration cell. How about joining me in urging Case to cooperate with our excess heat confirmation tests? I can find out in 2-3 days whether or not his cell is making excess heat. It will take SRI and Russ George all next year...if they even get around to looking for heat. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 15:35:41 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA26083; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:32:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:32:16 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990414183211.007acc40 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:32:11 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: 2nd appeal to Dr. Case Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Uk87l.0.ON6.mTH5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26912 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott: That's a pretty good letter. I hope Les Case goes for it. However, based on 30 years experience dealing with customers and the public, let me make a suggestion. The letter says: We would like to offer again our assistance in the development of your technology. EarthTech's charter is to find a new energy source for mankind. Our sponsor can single-handedly muster the resources to bring your technology from its present form all the way to worldwide deployment. You should prove this. Perhaps it comes as a surprise, but most people would find these statements difficult to believe. People like Les Case and I are experienced, hard-boiled, and cynical. We automatically assume that people who offer too-good-to-be-true deals, and big takers who gab about "worldwide development" and "uniquely qualified" are liars, bluffers, thieves, scoundrels or lunatics. I am NOT -- repeat NOT -- saying you are a con-man or a nut, but you may have inadvertently tripped the alarm in Case's mind. Many businessmen would glance at this letter and toss it straight into the trash. If this is your message, it isn't enough to say it in a letter or fax. You have to back it up with documented proof that your sponsor exists, and this really is your charter, and you really have the bucks, and you mean what you say. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 16:09:06 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA29766; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990414190120.00b2faa0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:01:20 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990414173332.00b14610 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990414175914.007adaa0 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"9z6LV3.0.tG7.byH5t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26914 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 17:59 4/14/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote: >>It is very, very simple. The control parameters are well understood and >>relatively easy to measure and verify, but extremely difficult to achieve. >>I do not see how anyone can call this "slanted" or even controversial. At 05:33 PM 4/14/99 -0500, Scott Little wrote: >Jed, if you ever get tired of this science stuff, a lucrative career awaits >you as a defense attorney... >It's the very fact that you (and others) have pinned the success of a cold >fusion experiment on parameters that are almost impossible to achieve that >is slanted. In fact, that's a classic symptom of pathological science. >You can rant and rave all you want but there is simply not enough data to >prove your position. It is still a hypothesis. Jed is correct. This is not pathologic science but Scott's pathological skepticism (or something else). In fact, many of the requirements of moderate to high material activity in cold fusion are known and a subset of them have been published. BTW IMO if a pathological skeptic doesnt even take the time to write down the loading equations, then "as a rule of thumb" the skeptics' "brick-toss" tactics against cold fusion are probably not based upon what can be term "classical science and engineering techniques". Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 18:24:50 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA29384; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:21:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:21:27 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990414173956.0079ea10 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:19:47 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Jones' comments on CF demo device Resent-Message-ID: <"UgdhA2.0.2B7.NyJ5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26915 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > > . . . we have all had direct experience with the analogs, and > thus we have no doubt of their reality. On the other hand, most > of us have *not* had the opportunity to encounter an over-unity > cold fusion cathode, and hence their existence remains suspect > to us. > >Yes, that is natural. It is most regrettable that people have not had a >chance to see these things. Much of the blame for this must attach to the >cold fusion scientists themselves. We are working hard to bring some to the >public, and we will pay top dollar to any cold fusion scientist who is >willing to sell us devices for demonstration purposes. ***{It is my understanding that Joe Newman is taking orders for a motor/generator system supposedly adequate to supply electricity for a 2,000 sq-ft home, for projected delivery in June of this year, which is a mere 2 months away. If memory serves, an up-front deposit of $3,500 is required, with another $3,500 on delivery. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >However, people should bear in mind that a cold fusion device is about as >lively as a melting ice cube. It does not look like much! The ones now >available must be installed in calorimeters in order to observe the excess >heat. All you see are numbers on the computer screen. If you are not >inclined to believe numbers, you will not be convinced by the >demonstration. Frankly, I would say that if you are not convinced by the >scientific papers by people like McKubre, Huggins and Oriani, you will >probably not be convinced by a "live" demonstration either. At this stage, >understanding must be cerebral, mediated by instruments. ***{My approach to this issue is straightforward: I want something that I can get my hands on without a lot of time and expense, which is backed up by enough data to convince me that it is worth my while. I have not bothered to read any of the papers you cited, because the claims made about the devices in question do not interest me. I am unwilling to invest years of time and hundreds of thousands of dollars to achieve what is, practically speaking, a trivial effect. Of course, *any* "over unity" effect is enormously significant in terms of its implications for the distant future. What I want, however, is something that I can reasonably and inexpensively expect to put to use myself, in the near future. A test kit for a tiny over-unity electric motor would be great, because I could use it to verify that the over unity effect was real and then, once convinced, I could purchase or build a larger version with confidence that my time and money would not be wasted. In other words, I use the information that I find in the vortex groups, in *Infinite Energy*, and in similar venues, to narrow down my focus to the areas that are most likely to be worthwhile. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Mitchell Swartz responds: > > Good points all. > > However, how many of us have ever seen a gold mine, a beating > heart, a tornado, DNA, a virus, an electron, or a tsunami, > either? Are these any less real? > >Excellent point! Some other germane things most people have never seen: >Tokamak reactors, thermonuclear bombs, supercomputers, and the Intel >Pentium III. > >No one ever observes a DNA or virus directly. They can only be seen through >instruments, and you have to have faith that the instruments are working >correctly. In that sense, observing DNA is like observing the excess heat >in today's low powered CF devices. If you do not understand or appreciate >scientific experiments and you do not understand signal to noise ratios, >you will not be convinced. ***{These points are true and, indeed, obvious, but I think they ignore the main point--to wit: that most people who have open minds about "over unity" devices remain unconvinced that they exist for *pragmatic* reasons rather than because they do not possess the required intellectual tools. That is, they have not immersed themselves in the sorts of papers you cite not because they lack the intelligence or knowledge that is required, but rather because the claims made are too trivial to render the process of study worth their while. Speaking for myself, I have no brief against abstract scientific reasoning. I do, however, have a brief against wasting time and money, and so I immerse myself in scientific detail, for the most part, only when doing so seems likely to provide significant value. This means a paper must offer the prospect of being unusually entertaining, or unusually enlightening, or unusually beneficial from the practical standpoint, before I will subject it to a protracted analytical process. In my view, studying somebody's cathode fabrication cookbook does not qualify on any of these grounds, and I suspect that others have avoided studying many of the papers you cite for similar reasons. --Mitchell Jones}*** And I think that anyone who does understand >these issue would have been convinced back in 1990 when Fritz Will >published, so I fear a demo may not convince many people. However, it would >only have to convince 100,000 people worldwide to succeed, or one person if >he happens to be, let us say, Bill Gates. > >Naturally, we hope to find more powerful, self-sustaining demo kits, which >would be more dramatic, but we will take whatever we can get. > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 20:08:39 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA30517; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:05:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:05:40 -0700 X-BPC-Relay-Envelope-From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au X-BPC-Relay-Envelope-To: X-BPC-Relay-Sender-Host: CPE-24-192-26-70.vic.bigpond.net.au [24.192.26.70] X-BPC-Relay-Info: Message delivered directly. From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Free Electricity Machine Demonstration Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 03:05:04 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <371556d8.6489504 mail-hub> References: <3711B85E.F086AC78 erie.net> <3711BBC6.40679A61@erie.net> In-Reply-To: <3711BBC6.40679A61 erie.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA30493 Resent-Message-ID: <"ePG273.0.lS7.4UL5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26916 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 12 Apr 1999 05:24:22 -0400, Norm Biss wrote: [snip] Quote: "A small community of 1,000 homes could make an excess of 100 kWh each (100,000 kilowatts of power) every hour to be used by industry." When someone thinks that 100 kWh every hour is 100,000 kilowatts, it's not surprising that they think they are getting something for nothing ;). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 20:08:53 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA31938; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:07:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:07:41 -0700 X-BPC-Relay-Envelope-From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au X-BPC-Relay-Envelope-To: X-BPC-Relay-Sender-Host: CPE-24-192-26-70.vic.bigpond.net.au [24.192.26.70] X-BPC-Relay-Info: Message delivered directly. From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: (fwd) Re: Fw: Free Electricity Machine Demonstration Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 03:07:01 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3716579f.6687914 mail-hub> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA31825 Resent-Message-ID: <"KGJ8b3.0.oo7.xVL5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26917 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 15 Apr 1999 03:05:04 GMT, rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) wrote: >On Mon, 12 Apr 1999 05:24:22 -0400, Norm Biss wrote: >[snip] >Quote: >"A small community of 1,000 homes could make an excess of 100 kWh each >(100,000 kilowatts of power) every hour to be used by industry." > >When someone thinks that 100 kWh every hour is 100,000 kilowatts, it's >not surprising that they think they are getting something for nothing >;). Oops! Next time I'll read it properly first :(. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 20:53:17 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA12836; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:52:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:52:05 -0700 Message-Id: <199904150347.XAA15276 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Case Contributions Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 23:51:09 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"AWorM2.0.Q83.a9M5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26918 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott wrote: >If you guys see excess temperatures in your cell, then perhaps > we can work out a deal with Case where I visit your lab in NH > with my portable calorimeter and test BOTH your cell AND one of > Case's own cells Maybe. ONLY, maybe. If you're nice about it and apologize for calling cold fusion pathological science. Gene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 20:56:36 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA13178; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:52:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:52:19 -0700 Message-Id: <199904150347.XAA15330 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Case Contributions Date: Wed, 14 Apr 99 23:51:24 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"QtGp-2.0.mD3.p9M5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26919 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote, >It's the very fact that you (and others) have pinned the success of a cold >fusion experiment on parameters that are almost impossible to achieve that >is slanted. What garbage! >In fact, that's a classic symptom of pathological science. Bullshit! >You can rant and rave all you want but there is simply not enough data to >prove your position. It is still a hypothesis. > >If things were really as clear-cut as you paint them, cold fusion would not >be ignored/shunned/banned by mainstream science. Super bullshit! and Little knows it. Bravo Jed! At last, through this long series of discussions with Scott, you have finally smoked him out. His true colors are there for all to see. I have suspected this attitude lurking beneath the veneer of being "oh so helpful...." I will strongly suggest to Les Case, when I return form a trip tomorrow, that he NOT cooperate with Scott in any way. ( In point of fact, Case has told me many times that he does not wish to cooperate with Little anyway, even though I previously suggested he should think otherwise.) Case should either do it himself or with others such as McKubre, us, George or others -- make the self sustainer and/or prove the helium, but he should not have dealings with Scott Little, not with that kind of underserving attitude brought to the fore. Furthermore, let me make clear to Scott Little with all his bluster about financial support for Case -- combined with his sneering about pathological science, that we are in touch with quite adequate resources too that will come into play as soon as any particular process is both 100% proved and commercially viable. Case does not need magic money from Earth Tech. One last word for Scott: Tritium! Think about it. Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 14 21:03:53 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA14877; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:55:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:55:48 -0700 Message-ID: <37156298.4D05212D ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:52:56 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Observations of Anomalous Transparency Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YQ7BP2.0.Ne3.4DM5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26920 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Contact Nick Reiter for more info: reit intelliworks.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 18:08:11 -0800 Observations of Anomalous Transparency: The Faile Effect 10 March 1999 Nicholas Reiter Overview: In 1997 and early 1998, Dr. S.P. Faile, a semi-retired materials research engineer and scientist, began recording observations of a curious effect witnessed by him around his home. The effect seemed to consist of occasional circumstances where common, normally opaque objects ranging from one's forearm, to sheet metal, to furniture, would appear to turn partially transparent. More distant objects seemed to be visible through these structures, even to the extent of such details as printed characters. The effect was first noticed by SPF in dimly lit work-room conditions, where he has been conducting experiments in New Energy for several years. Dr. Faile at first, in scientific fashion, evaluated whether or not the transparency effect was a specialized optical illusion. He began to doubt that this was the case, however, after many hours of painstaking viewing, and after receiving the corroboration of several other associates located away from his hometown of Cincinnati. At present it seems to be a phenomenon in search of a definition or methodology! One model would place the effect into the realm of anomalous human talent, such as clairvoyance or remote viewing. However, because other individuals, with only a minimum of technique description have been able to confirm the effect, and because a number of "real world" factors such as lighting, location, and certain material structures can greatly affect it's magnitude, it seems to more properly belong in the realm of optics, and may invoke quantum principles. Qualities of the Faile Effect: The observation of anomalous transparency seems to be possible in a very wide range of environments. The first hints of the effect were noticed in low level diffused monochromatic light, indoors. SPF would observe his right forearm, whilst moving solid metallic objects such as screwdrivers or steel rods behind it with the left hand. With proper dim lighting, and the focusing of eyes to a point in space beyond the right arm, the basic moving outline of the selected metal piece could be seen through the arm! An illusion where the mind fills in suspected detail? If observations would have remained at this "parlour trick" level, the argument might hold more merit. However, SPF was eventually able to view details of objects completely obscured by the arm, or larger structures. Transparency viewing was then moved outdoors, with surprising results. Once again, Dr. Faile repeatedly witnessed the "virtual transparency" effect, however new examples could be found with walls, boulders, fences, and tree limbs. We should note at this point that the effect described is NOT the old children's pastime of holding one's fingers out, and de-focusing the eyes, thus allowing a transparent double image to form. Technical correspondents and associates of Dr. Faile in Utah, Florida, and in several regions of Ohio were kept informed about the effect, and attempts were made by all to replicate the original observations. The conclusion arrived at was that the transparency effect COULD be discerned by others, and did seem to be related in it's magnitude to a number of factors. If one were to evaluate the appearance of the typical viewed anomalous transparency in comparison to a known arrangement of filters or optical attenuators, one would say that it is a neutral density effect, and resembles an optical transmission of perhaps 2 to 3% at most. Hints of outlines, or faint definition of regions of high contrast comprise most of the effect, although Dr. Faile has compiled a "gallery" of preferential viewing examples at his home. Some of these structure / light source combinations have been claimed by a number of visitors / volunteers to produce almost spooky levels of seemingly real transparency! The logical question which arises here is " have these effects been captured on film?" To this we answer, "apparently so..." Both Dr. Faile and NR have taken 35mm photos, in colour and BW around their respective lab work areas. In many of these shots, faint outlines and silhouettes which resemble those seen by eye SEEM to be visible! If the whole affair is an optical illusion, some sort of imaginal ray tracing, we question if this same effect would carry over to the viewing of photos. Yet on the other hand, one would think that if bright light sources such as lasers were used, anomalous transparency could be brought up to a vividly and commonly observed level. Clearly, this is not so; thus we are left with a paradox. Precedents: Partial transparency of normally opaque objects, even if very rare, should be a topic of note and discussion in the annals of Alternate Science! Yet we have been able to find very little published precedent on the effect! We have viewed a recent internet posted still photo taken near a ghost town in California, which seems to show a VERY transparent tombstone in a cemetery. Additionally, a very curious photograph published by T. Bearden dates from the 1930's, and shows a couple sitting on a park bench. However, the curiosity lies in the fact that one easily notices that the male of the couple is virtually invisible from the waist down! Dr. Bearden points out that the couple in the photo were sitting on a park bench under an old fashioned arc lamp, and hypothesizes that emissions or field effects from the lamp were inducing invisibility. We have also been told that in the Fusor experiments of Farnsworth, components made of stainless steel began to exhibit transparency. We admit that old photographs of unknown pedigree are scientifically suspect, as accidental or intentional double exposures can make people and objects look transparent. Perhaps the effect, regardless of it's origin, remains obscure because few individuals think to look for it, or even suspect it! Current Efforts: At the present time, our main objective is to catalog and document as many observations of apparent transparency as possible. We have considered a number of theoretical models for such a phenomenon, such as coherence of short to medium length wormhole pairs in the quantum foam of space. However, the Faile Effect, as we have come to call it, requires far greater definition and characterization than exists currently. Because of this, we are actively seeking scientific correspondence and data sharing with amateur or professional scientists on this matter. Specifically, we would like to hear from any other parties who have come across anomalous transparency in their research or even everyday life! Our opinion is that Faile Effect presents a genuine anomaly, perhaps a field of study in itself. It may extend into a number of alternate science topics, and seems to bridge a gap between human optical response and perceptions, and unknown physical properties. We also believe that there does exist a currently not understood factor which holds the key to the Faile Effect. Understanding and control of this factor might permit dramatic technological developments! If you, the reader, have experienced anomalous transparency, or if you are working on this topic from a theoretical angle, we encourage you to contact us! Contact may be made with: Nick Reiter 541 W. Stone St. Gibsonburg, Ohio 43431 (419) 637-2659 (evenings) e-mail: reit intelliworks.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 05:20:58 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA12891; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 05:19:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 05:19:49 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990415081800.00810890 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:18:00 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: ununquadrium Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"3O3ZZ3.0.K93.bbT5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26921 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: element 114 = ununquadrium click here: http://www.phys.utk.edu/element.htm Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 06:32:33 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA00756; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 06:29:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 06:29:30 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990415083230.008d6710 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:32:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <199904150347.XAA15330 mercury.mv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"83hDK2.0.gB.vcU5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26922 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:51 PM 4/14/99 -0000, E.F. Mallove wrote: >I will strongly suggest to Les Case, when I return form a trip tomorrow, >that he NOT cooperate with Scott in any way. Is this your idea of the Golden Rule? "Do unto your fellow CF investigators as mainstream science is doing unto you." Just because I voice an opinion that YOU don't like, you're going to try to interfere with my efforts to find out whether or not Dr Case has discovered the answer we've all been looking for!!!!!? I can only see one possible reason for this behavior: if you succeed, it will give you another year or so of uncertainty about Case's phenomenon during which you can fantasize that it is real. Gene, I WANT to see cold fusion turn out to be real. Why else do you think I work at EarthTech and spend all my time and energy running these experiments? Thanks for the support. Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 06:32:44 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA01589; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 06:31:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 06:31:53 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990415093016.007b5250 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:30:16 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Case Contributions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"B2uv43.0.kO.9fU5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26923 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little writes: It's the very fact that you (and others) have pinned the success of a cold fusion experiment on parameters that are almost impossible to achieve that is slanted. In fact, that's a classic symptom of pathological science. BUT, but . . . but that's what the data shows!!! Whenever a cell becomes fully loaded, it produces excess heat. It is almost impossible to achieve the conditions for hot fusion, for cloning sheep, or putting a robot on Mars. Do you assert that these achievements are also pathological science? Intel, the biggest, richest, smartest semiconductor company on earth find it extremely difficult to maintain the proper parameters in their production lines. They achieve 80 to 90% success at best, and every percentage point costs them staggering amounts of money. Do you claim that Intel is doing pathological science? You can rant and rave all you want but there is simply not enough data to prove your position. It is still a hypothesis. These are observations, not hypotheses. There is a huge difference. You have confused observations and hypotheses again, as you did with the Storms paper. The observations may be flawed, but they are not hypothetical in any sense, since no one predicted them or knows why they should be true. If things were really as clear-cut as you paint them, cold fusion would not be ignored/shunned/banned by mainstream science. Many, many discoveries throughout history have been clear cut, yet they have been ignored or banned by the establishment. People are no more rational today than they were in 1848 when they attacked Semmelweis; or when they denied that pellagra is caused by malnutrition from 1910 to 1940 despite overwhelming evidence; or when they denied that cigarettes caused cancer until 1970. Mainframe and minicomputer companies fought against or ignored microcomputers in 1980. That was not rational, and those companies swiftly went out of business. History is chock full of examples of irrationality, hysterical denial of the obvious, and self-destructive, suicidal behavior. Look at 18th century tulipmania, Wall Street in 1929, or average price-to-earnings ratios today. How about joining me in urging Case to cooperate with our excess heat confirmation tests? I can find out in 2-3 days . . . A person who does not understand the difference between observations and hypotheses has no business in the laboratory. I could not recommend you. There are thousands of qualified engineers and scientists in the New Hampshire area who could assist Les Case; he should not call in some fellow from Texas who would fail a pop quiz in undergraduate Science 101. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 07:51:27 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA32373; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 07:48:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 07:48:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3715FCFC.DE1C6FF5 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:51:45 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Case Contributions References: <3.0.1.32.19990413132108.007a3ce0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wFxIU2.0.hv7.kmV5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26924 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, I would like to add my two cents. Two kinds of skeptics seem to exist in the world and I believe they should be treated differently. The skeptics I will call “hard” are so sure of their personal views that they work very hard to prevent other view points from being considered. Zimmerman and Huizenga are examples. These people are dangerous and will never change no matter how good the evidence, short of an over unity device being available at Wall Mart. On the other hand, the “soft” skeptics are willing to give the believers the benefit of doubt even though they will not go out of their way to support the field or perhaps even give encouragement. They are willing to live and let live. They behave like many of us outside of our fields of interest or expertise. I think Scott falls into this group. Indeed, he is even willing to invest his time even though he does not believe the effect is real. This is good thing. Most other “soft” skeptics will not even go this far. When samples become available, most people we will encourage to test them will have this same attitude. I suggest we need to encourage such people rather than rejecting them because they do not agree with us at this point. Otherwise they will come to view us as the counterpart of the “hard” skeptics, i.e. “hard” believers. Both are equally distracting in trying to arrive at a mutual understanding. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 08:20:20 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA09659; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:16:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:16:59 -0700 Message-ID: <001201be8752$e3119180$8149ccd1 default> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Case Contributions Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:14:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"04Wxj1.0.rM2.gBW5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26925 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed says: > Intel, the biggest, richest, >smartest semiconductor company on earth find it extremely difficult to >maintain the proper parameters in their production lines. They achieve 80 >to 90% success at best, and every percentage point costs them staggering >amounts of money. Do you claim that Intel is doing pathological science? To which I might add, as I have a number of times in the past, that color picture tube production is very difficult, despite the millions that have been made, and it is a struggle to keep the yield at final test in the 95% range. Below that, a color picture tube plant is a very elaborate way to lose money. Also, you don't bin the final performance parameters like you do with semiconductors: it's pass/fail. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 08:20:27 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA10597; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:19:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:19:20 -0700 Message-ID: <000201be8754$33a66ca0$7d13fea9 dec> From: "Bill Page" To: Subject: Re: Case Contributions Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:22:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Resent-Message-ID: <"gAeBs3.0.Vb2.tDW5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26926 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Normally the best way to treat the recent dialog between Scott Little, Jed Rothwell, Gene Mallove, Michel Swartz would be to just ignore it. I have attended several of the cold fusion meetings, met all of the above people at one time or another and have read nearly all of the available literature. I have even done some CF experiments myself (unpublished). And I feel compelled to say that I disagree completely with the recent comments of Jed, Gene and Mich. I think their reactions and over statements in response to Scott's reasonable and scientifically based skepticism can only be explained by just how badly they are 'backed into the wall' concerning their opinions about cold fusion. Of course Jed, Gene and Mich will deny that they are in this position, but I want to say it anyway because it may not be obvious to them what their comments look like to someone who does not often post to the list but who has been reading it and other sources of CF information for the last 10 years. There is no evidence whatever of any malicious intent on the part of Scott Little or Earthtech. Scott's expressed interpretation of the available data seems entirely reasonable to me. In fact, it seems like the only defensible position at this time. I can only applaud the fact that he continues to advertise his willingness to test claims of excess heat and maintains his doubt about the possible outcome. Unlike in business and in religion, expression of doubt is a normal and natural part of the scientific method. My point in making this posting to the list is simply that I would very much like Scott and Earthtech to continue this quest. I would also like the CF advocates like Jed, Gene and Mich to back-off and to stop this sort of "in-fighting". It looks bad, it's unscientific and it is certainly unproductive. There is no valid reason anyone, including Les Case, Russ George nor anyone else, should be discouraged from working with Scott Little or anyone else who has demonstrated such openness and willingness to test their claims. Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 08:51:06 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA21348; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:45:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:45:34 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990415114521.0079da70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:45:21 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Case contributions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"dZk3t1.0.QD5.TcW5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26927 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bill Page writes: There is no evidence whatever of any malicious intent on the part of Scott Little or Earthtech. I never said it was malicious, merely incorrect. He says only one in a hundred cathodes worked at SRI, whereas their official report says one in two. He said the effect is transient; SRI says it is robust. Scott says there are no known control parameters; SRI lists and graphs control parameters. That's a huge difference! They cannot both be right. Scott's expressed interpretation of the available data seems entirely reasonable to me. Well, it does not reasonable to me, or to McKubre, Fleischmann, Bockris or Huggins. People have different opinions I suppose -- that is why there is a controversy. I would also like the CF advocates like Jed, Gene and Mich to back-off and to stop this sort of "in-fighting". It looks bad, it's unscientific and it is certainly unproductive. Science is supposed to be quantitative. When a person says "1 in 100" and the data shows 1 in 2, you have serious problem. I do not think it is unproductive infighting to point out such huge errors. There is no valid reason anyone, including Les Case, Russ George nor anyone else, should be discouraged from working with Scott Little or anyone else who has demonstrated such openness and willingness to test their claims. But he asked me for a recommendation! Scott asked me to recommend him to Case, and I declined. It is quite a normal thing in business to have a former employee, colleague or vendor ask for a recommendation for a job or a project. It is my responsibility to answer such requests honestly. Les Case did not ask me, and I do not expect he will, but if he does, I will have to say I think Scott is not qualified, and I will forward his latest comments as proof. I do not hold it against a person when I find he is not suitable for a job, but I sure do not advertise the man! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 08:57:28 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA23486; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:50:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:50:02 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990415105302.008e2cf0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:53:02 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: vacation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"KWK121.0.qk5.ggW5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26928 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'll be gone for a while...until May 3rd. Have fun. My sincere thanks to Ed Storms and Bill Page for their support. Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 09:19:33 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA02409; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:18:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:18:14 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990415121809.0079cd00 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:18:09 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Case contributions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"y3nr-3.0.Wb.65X5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26929 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Storms writes: . . . the "soft" skeptics are willing to give the believers the benefit of doubt even though they will not go out of their way to support the field or perhaps even give encouragement. They are willing to live and let live. They behave like many of us outside of our fields of interest or expertise. I think Scott falls into this group. Perhaps he does, but I think his attitude is irrelevant. His technical abilities and understanding are flawed. He thinks SRI's success rate was 1 in 100. The reports say it was 1 in 2. He does not realize that the electrochemical parameters are well defined. He has invented a new category of "pathological science" which would condemn Intel and NASA. Jonathan Piel, former editor of Scientific American, told me that "pathological science" includes any phenomenon for which the "mechanism is not fully understood," as he put it. Now Scott Little has expanded the definition yet again by adding in any process we find difficult. Langmuir would turn over in his grave if he could see how many new categories these people have invented! I would rather work with a hard skeptic who has read the literature than a soft skeptic who makes gross errors. Incompetent people of good will have done much harm to cold fusion. Indeed, he is even willing to invest his time even though he does not believe the effect is real. This is good thing. No, it is a bad thing. Too many misguided, incompetent people have invested their time and talents in cold fusion already. People who refuse to read the literature should back off. Look at the NEDO program! It would have better for everyone if they had stayed home. When samples become available, most people we will encourage to test them will have this same attitude. I suggest we need to encourage such people rather than rejecting them because they do not agree with us at this point. If samples become available, we will sell them with a money back guarantee or give them away. People who are not interested in CF will ignore us. Some incompetent people will buy devices and fail to make them work. We will apologize and return their money. In other words, a self-selected group will look at cathodes, just as a self-selected group of people who like to live dangerously go hang gliding or Beta test a new software release. There are millions of good candidates in the world. We will not have to search for them, select them, or judge them. Our job will be to sell and support the product, not to judge the customer or speculate about his motivation. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 09:20:39 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA02505; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:18:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:18:26 -0700 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199904151618.LAA08615 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <000201be8754$33a66ca0$7d13fea9 dec> from Bill Page at "Apr 15, 99 11:22:01 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:18:23 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Pi9FN2.0.2d.I5X5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26930 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bill Page wrote: > My point in making this posting to the list is simply that I would > very much like Scott and Earthtech to continue this quest. Mega dittos. As long as Scott is of a mind to pursue CF or any other phenomena, I'd like to encourage him to do so. I don't know how much longer his enthusiasm will carry him. It surely is a triumph of hope over experience. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 651-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 10:08:20 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA02290; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990415125503.00b2d400 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:55:03 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-Reply-To: <000201be8754$33a66ca0$7d13fea9 dec> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"4laPy1.0.hZ.AjX5t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26931 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:22 AM 4/15/99 -0400, Bill Page wrote: >Unlike in business and in religion, expression >of doubt is a normal and natural part of the scientific method. Doubt should be built into the hypotheses used to test each point - and usually is by serious scientists. But science takes redoing the experiment, remeasuring, over and over. One can't make someone else do this. ================================================== >My point in making this posting to the list is simply that I would >very much like Scott and Earthtech to continue this quest. I would >also like the CF advocates like Jed, Gene and Mich to back-off >and to stop this sort of "in-fighting". There is no "in-fighting", only encouragement, and so the implication is wrong. I have encouraged Scott, and have sent him materials and personally taken time to help his search -- including pointing him in the direction where he is most likely to find excess heat in one of the very systems into which he looked. As said above, one can only encourage this. Furthermore, this field does not simply "exist" or "not exist". It not only exists, but there are several cold fusion pathways, several material, engineering and loading problems, and several types of artifact which can overlay the measurements, obscure the measurements or even produce false-positives and false-negatives. Have a good day. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 10:09:06 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA21010; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:06:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:06:57 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990415130430.007a8210 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:04:30 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Jones' comments on CF demo device Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"_wV3D1.0.885.noX5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26932 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: It is my understanding that Joe Newman is taking orders for a motor/generator system supposedly adequate to supply electricity for a 2,000 sq-ft home, for projected delivery in June of this year, which is a mere 2 months away. If memory serves, an up-front deposit of $3,500 is required, with another $3,500 on delivery. Hmmmm . . . . I am afraid I would not want to deal with Newman on that basis. I would want to evaluate a careful, independent test of his latest machines before giving him a deposit. We have paid for machines in advance, and we have given many people the benefit of the doubt, but Newman lacks credibility. I do not think it would be wise to risk $3,500 on him. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 11:14:36 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA14063; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:05:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:05:46 -0700 Message-ID: <37162B2D.8EE76120 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:08:45 -0400 From: Terry Blanton Organization: Chaotic X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jones' comments on CF demo device References: <3.0.1.32.19990415130430.007a8210 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Yrmo12.0.RR3.vfY5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26933 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I hope that this isn't the device that Greer will promote at COFE. Anyone know? Terry Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > It is my understanding that Joe Newman is taking orders for a > motor/generator system supposedly adequate to supply electricity > for a 2,000 sq-ft home, for projected delivery in June of this > year, which is a mere 2 months away. If memory serves, an > up-front deposit of $3,500 is required, with another $3,500 on > delivery. > > Hmmmm . . . . I am afraid I would not want to deal with Newman on that > basis. I would want to evaluate a careful, independent test of his latest > machines before giving him a deposit. We have paid for machines in advance, > and we have given many people the benefit of the doubt, but Newman lacks > credibility. I do not think it would be wise to risk $3,500 on him. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 11:16:24 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA19815; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:15:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:15:34 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:27:58 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Case contributions Resent-Message-ID: <"I9TYb3.0.Sr4.5pY5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26934 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:45 AM 4/15/99, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] > It is my responsibility to answer such requests honestly. Les >Case did not ask me, and I do not expect he will, but if he does, I will >have to say I think Scott is not qualified, and I will forward his latest >comments as proof. I do not hold it against a person when I find he is not >suitable for a job, but I sure do not advertise the man! Scott Little is not qualified to do calorimetry? That's a laugh! His results already speak for themselves. Scott is an excellent and dedicated pofessional, fully qualified to do exactly as he says. Any reasonable person who has been a long time reader on this list already knows that in spades, so this is not news. Scott says: "In 2 or 3 days, at the location of your choosing, we can perform a series of calorimetric measurements that will reveal precisely how much excess heat your device is producing. My calorimetry will not interfere with the operation of your device. You will be able to operate it exactly as you normally do. When we see your excess temperature effect, we can look over at my instruments to see how many watts of excess heat are being produced; i.e. we will correlate your excess temperature signal with our calorimetrically-determined excess heat measurement." Scott has already clearly demonstrated he has the ability to do just that. How could this possibly be in question? The ability to quickly do onsite testing is a real move forward. This is an achievement that should be lauded, not taunted. I have personally received much help and even some occasional hard to come by items from Scott Little over the years, as have various other amateurs here, like Vince Cockeram. Scott is anything but a hard skeptic. He is a real supporter of research and researchers of all kinds, despite his honest skepticism, and I have personally benefitted much from his help, as I think many others here have as well. A personal attack on him on the basis of him not being a free energy zelot is outragious and unprofessional. Scott has stated many times that his primary aim is not to do original scientific research, but to find a practical source of energy. I think it is very strange to see continuing criticism of him on the basis that he will not go to elaborate extremes to get marginal and unreliable excess heat results. If anyone has the ability to obtain more than marginal and unreliable excess heat results, they don't seem to be very forthcoming! Personally I have not seen any evidence that would make me bet that such exists. What I *would* bet on is Scott Little's integrity and diligence. Further, he is not peddling anything. He has nothing for sale, unlike his critics on this list. However, if he says Earthtech can connect the bearer of breakthrough technology to Earthtech's sponsor with the intent to negotiate an arrangement to develop it, I believe him. If he says the sponor is uniquely and abundantly qualified to do so, I belive that too. I have never seen any reason to disbelieve the earnestness in anything Scott Little has ever said. He is one of the people in this field with complete integrity. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 14:04:43 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA16269; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:59:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:59:37 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990415093016.007b5250 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:56:00 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Case Contributions Resent-Message-ID: <"uF5qo3.0.7-3.uCb5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26935 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Scott Little writes: > > It's the very fact that you (and others) have pinned the success > of a cold fusion experiment on parameters that are almost > impossible to achieve that is slanted. In fact, that's a > classic symptom of pathological science. > >BUT, but . . . but that's what the data shows!!! Whenever a >cell becomes fully loaded, it produces excess heat. ***{I think Scott is referring to the verification difficulties associated with the position you have taken, Jed. When you say that the cold fusion effect is enormously difficult to achieve and use that premise to explain away the fact that when Scott has tested a cell, he has found no excess heat, he feels frustrated. From his perspective, it is as if you have asserted that there is a Leprechaun that lives in his refrigerator. He wants to treat each "look inside" as a test of your hypothesis, but you won't permit him to do so on the grounds that the Leprechaun is very shy and almost always vanishes when the door is opened. Result: he makes references to "pathological science," suggests that you are "insane," etc. Result: you get ticked off and resurrect your earlier suggestions that he is scientifically incompetent. [See below.] I think you both should calm down and speak in more measured tones. Having said that, however, I must admit that this has been a very worthwhile discussion, despite the undercurrent of mutual animosity. I have enjoyed reading it very much, and I hope that Scott will remain in the fray. This is great entertainment! --Mitchell Jones}*** > >It is almost impossible to achieve the conditions for hot fusion, for >cloning sheep, or putting a robot on Mars. Do you assert that these >achievements are also pathological science? Intel, the biggest, richest, >smartest semiconductor company on earth find it extremely difficult to >maintain the proper parameters in their production lines. They achieve 80 >to 90% success at best, and every percentage point costs them staggering >amounts of money. Do you claim that Intel is doing pathological science? ***{The difference, as I noted the other day, is that each of these hypotheses have already been proven to the satisfaction of outsiders, and thus nobody is deflecting skeptical arguments by pointing out that these outcomes are difficult to achieve. If we were still at the stage of arguing about them, you would not be able to demonstrate their reality by pointing out that they are difficult to achieve. All you would accomplish thereby would be to demonstrate that they *might* be real. Leaving the analogies aside, one way to prove that the Case variant of CF is real would be to do calorimetry of the sort that Scott is proposing and, frankly, I do not see why you are not encouraging his efforts. After all, what can it hurt? If Scott decides that Case is "over unity," you win; and if he decides otherwise, it's just more grist for your mill, right? (As you have said repeatedly in the past: "Any publicity is good publicity." :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > You can rant and rave all you want but there is simply not > enough data to prove your position. It is still a hypothesis. > >These are observations, not hypotheses. There is a huge difference. You >have confused observations and hypotheses again, as you did with the Storms >paper. The observations may be flawed, but they are not hypothetical in any >sense, since no one predicted them or knows why they should be true. ***{Here you seem to be willfully disregarding what Scott is saying. Regardless of what you call the required cathode parameters, the possibility that they are difficult to achieve does *not* prove that cold fusion is real. At best, it merely proves that it *may* be real--on the grounds that Scott's failure to find excess heat in the past may be due to his failure to achieve those conditions in the cathodes he tested. In short, the statement that he made, above, remains literally true, despite your rejoinder. (The possibility that the Leprechaun is very shy does not prove that he exists, either. :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > If things were really as clear-cut as you paint them, cold > fusion would not be ignored/shunned/banned by mainstream > science. > >Many, many discoveries throughout history have been clear cut, yet they >have been ignored or banned by the establishment. People are no more >rational today than they were in 1848 when they attacked Semmelweis; or >when they denied that pellagra is caused by malnutrition from 1910 to 1940 >despite overwhelming evidence; or when they denied that cigarettes caused >cancer until 1970. Mainframe and minicomputer companies fought against or >ignored microcomputers in 1980. That was not rational, and those companies >swiftly went out of business. History is chock full of examples of >irrationality, hysterical denial of the obvious, and self-destructive, >suicidal behavior. Look at 18th century tulipmania, Wall Street in 1929, or >average price-to-earnings ratios today. ***{Absolutely true, and well said. On this point, you are clearly correct and Scott is clearly wrong. --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > How about joining me in urging Case to cooperate with our excess heat > confirmation tests? I can find out in 2-3 days . . . > >A person who does not understand the difference between observations and >hypotheses has no business in the laboratory. I could not recommend you. >There are thousands of qualified engineers and scientists in the New >Hampshire area who could assist Les Case; he should not call in some fellow >from Texas who would fail a pop quiz in undergraduate Science 101. ***{This is childish and uncalled for, even though provoked by Scott's earlier allusions to your "insanity." Nevertheless, this exchange is producing far more light than heat. I think Bill Beaty should give each of you a gold star. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 15:31:36 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA03496; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:29:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:29:16 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990415223546.016ba598 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:35:46 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: Case Contributions Resent-Message-ID: <"1Ghro1.0.Ys.yWc5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26936 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I see a bunch of messages titled 'Case Contributions' but no mention of the significant finding. Wasn't it about limiting the palladium volume increase to 10 or 15 percent from the hydrogen (or was it deuterium) loading. And that all failed CF experiments did not observe this parameter? Dennis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 15:38:43 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA06224; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:35:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:35:05 -0700 From: BriggsRO aol.com Message-ID: <8109602a.2447c324 aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:33:08 EDT Subject: Re: Case contributions To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 246 Reply-To: BriggsRO aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"1iYjI1.0.AX1.Occ5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26937 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 4/15/99 11:16:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time, hheffner mtaonline.net writes: << What I *would* bet on is Scott Little's integrity and diligence. Further, he is not peddling anything. He has nothing for sale, unlike his critics on this list. However, if he says Earthtech can connect the bearer of breakthrough technology to Earthtech's sponsor with the intent to negotiate an arrangement to develop it, I believe him. If he says the sponor is uniquely and abundantly qualified to do so, I belive that too. I have never seen any reason to disbelieve the earnestness in anything Scott Little has ever said. He is one of the people in this field with complete integrity. >> Horace, I am in 100% agreement with Horace regarding Scott's competence, his integrity and his sincere desire to find the truth in this field. He has no hidden agenda. I can't think of anything that would move Case's research along faster than to team up with Scott and get some unassailable energy out/energy in measurements. I have seen Scott's work and it is first class engineering. If Scott has a failing it is his devotion to truth which makes him a bit prickly some times. Regards, Bob Briggs From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 16:05:38 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA16165; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 16:02:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 16:02:56 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990415230854.016cc7e0 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:08:54 -0400 To: JNaudin509 aol.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: A working EHD Flying Saucer... Resent-Message-ID: <"oN8I91.0.Gy3.U0d5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26938 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:36 AM 4/13/99 EDT, JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: >On 11/04/99 17:17:54, atech ix.netcom.com wrote : >> Jean-Louis; >> >> Congratulations on your good work. >> > >Hi Dennis and all, > >Thanks for your comments, > >> Comment: Electrode surfaces could be smoother. It looks like the electrode >> annular plasma balls are somewhat randomly spaced by sharp points and edges >> on the rim. The geometry precision and surface smoothness should be such >> that the plasma balls are evenly spaced on the rim (easier to achieve when >> under vacuum). No observable (detectable) shape or smoothness >> irregularities. > >I fully agree with about the smoothness surface of the cupola, this will >increase the effect. because the medium will be able to flow at a higher >speed on the cupola surface, thus this will decrease the hydrostatic pressure >on the upper surface. This is an ElectroHydroDynamic effect and the shape and >the medium speed along a specific path (due to the shape, like a wing >profile) is very important for increasing the resulting thrust... > >> Do you have vacuum / belljar equipment (good to 1 or 2 Torr - w/ vacuum >> gauge - electrode volume should be 10% or less of belljar volume or there >> maybe heat accumulation issues - w/ force sensor)? If so, would you like to >> try a suggestion or two? >> > >Unfortunately, I don't have a vacuum chamber for testing the device, but I >hope to check this soon with some external help.... This has been fully >tested and checked by Townsend Brown in France, for more informations about >this you may read : > >"Electrogravitics Systems" ( Report on a new propulsion methodology) by >Thomas Valone - ISBN 0-9641070-0-7 > >and also : > >"L'effet Biefeld-Brown" by Alexandre Szames - (ASZ editions ISBN >2-913377-00-9 - EAN 9782913377004) ( >http://www.aes.com.freeservers.com/html/bbbook.htm ) > >Ps: I have updated my web site with three new videos about my EHD-FS v2.0 in >action and also some explanations about the EHD working principles with >computer simulations pictures at : >http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/delany/256/html/advprop.htm All I know is that if you test any asymmetrical electrode pair with hv under vacuum, you will see balls of plasma form. (Question - how might one conduct such an experiment so that one might be reasonably sure that the parameters of the tuned point just mentioned would be swept through and said phenomenon be observed?) Now what do these spinning plasma balls have to do with TTBrown? Why haven't I heard of this before? Do present computer simulations predict these plasma balls? What is the Corbino Effect? Dennis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 17:06:45 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA06046; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:03:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:03:26 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990416000924.016d1320 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:09:24 -0400 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: Machiavellian social resistance (skepticism)to unconventional wisdom Resent-Message-ID: <"JKMcm3.0.2U1.Dvd5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26939 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:33 AM 4/11/99 -0400, you wrote: >"Dennis C. Lee" wrote: > >> At 07:06 AM 4/7/99 -0400, you wrote: >> >> >Quite the point. But we're not writing about you but of the nature of >> >social resistance when consensus reality (as a meme) is challenged. >> >> I feel the point of this being that doubt (uncertain seems more appropriate) >> is a wrong response by society and should be corrected if possible. > >It is so much a part of society that it is easier to correct on an indvidual >level. This is the goal of many spiritual practices dealing with the ego as >a false projection or simulation of the self. The concept of "illusion" suggests >that "society" is a patholigical manifestation of the spirit which leads us to >the goal of being in the world but not of it. This correction is the basis of >the spiritual warrior practices or techniques. > >> >This paper was not prepared for CIA staff or line below administration. >> >It certainly was not prepared for CIA wannabes. >> > >> >It was used as the basis for the CIA admission that they, the Intelligence >> Community, >> >was and had long been involved in "psychic" espionage and as a means of >> publically >> >discounting the public revelations of former "Stargate" remote viewer David >> >Morehouse who blew the whistle. >> >> The last statement of an entity wanting the pogrom executed intentionally is >> curious. Why is it there? Unless this entity is in fact known to exist, it >> is pure speculation. The paper is of such length and complexity, I question >> whether it was placed there with the intent of giving credibility, and >> approval, to the pogrom concept for those whose reading skills are of lower >> levels. Close scrutiny will reveal an innocuous document however. >> >> If such an entity does exist, why does he not wished to be identified? > >The entity is known as a "black project" (cf. black box). Its nature is to be >unknown. > >The entity was identified and thus could not be denied. However, the entity >knowing the dynamics of the social mind uses it to minimize the significance >of its existence. > >The CIA does not deny Stargate or related "black projects" using >psychic research to conduct espionage but rather says: "as we all >know, these things do not really work." > >The "pogrom" in this case is the rendering of truth to be a lie and the rendering >of a lie to be the truth, which is what PR and other forms of doublespeak are >all about. It works. Note the illusion of a democratic republic. > >The reason why the "entity" does not wish to be identified is for reasons >of stealth. This is the same reason why we don't want our attack airplanes >seen on radar, and why Russia is denying there is no nuclear threat when >well beneath the Russian warships, our military knows are nuclear subs. > >> >But, hey, I thought "we" were on the same said. I get a little paranoid when >> >someone starts to polarize on my messages and when my posts to a list are >> >censored. It causes me to question whether there is some hidden agenda here >> >on this list relative to censorship of perception. What's here on this list >> that we're >> >not to see? >> > >> >This does not seem to be the physics of love at all, but the physics of >> supression. >> >> Sorry for giving this impression. I felt strongly that while it maybe true >> someone, somewhere, doesn't wish unconventional views to be identified and >> developed, this in no way suggests that such a desire is in anyway a good >> thing. In fact, given the latest satellite evidence of global warming and >> its' manmade causes (physicsweb.org - what's new) suppression of such views >> which will stop or reverse global warming, can be legally challenged under >> proper review of National Security guidelines. Government officials who >> propagate such suppression, risk administrative disciplinary action. >> > >Obviosly this is not a good thing. It is a part of the strategy of mystery = mastery >or the application of mushroom management: keep people in the dark and feed >them horse shit. Them = general public. It is the way of consensus reality. > >Welcome to the "real" world. So in order to avoid the (IMHO unlikely) possibility of (worse) chaos by letting the truth be known, the above directives are implemented thus insuring certain chaos in society? Anybody hear news of official forecasts for the upcoming hurricane season? 'They' are going to make us wait until everything is wrecked by the weather aren't they? Is there any scientific evidence that we needn't be concerned of such issues? What is a citizen supposed to be doing now? Are there any roles available other than victim? Dennis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 17:13:47 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA11029; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:11:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:11:59 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:10:11 -1000 Subject: Re: Machiavellian [...] _.VortB? Thanks From: "Rick Monteverde" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <199904152028.SM00197 [206.127.240.158]> Resent-Message-ID: <"YkGT7.0.Ci2.E1e5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26940 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Folks - >> >It was used as the basis for the CIA admission that they, the Intelligence >> Community, >> >was and had long been involved in "psychic" espionage and as a means of >> publically >> >discounting the public revelations of former "Stargate" remote viewer David >> >Morehouse who blew the whistle. There has been some very interesting debate recently on the list re CF, and I've been glad to see it. Would it be possible to move this unrelated discussion to vortexB? And while I'm speaking up on this, I might as well mention too that crossposting to vortex and freenrg is a violation, and it's annoying. Please stop doing that. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 17:31:05 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA15415; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:28:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:28:11 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:23:22 EDT Subject: Re: H2K- Joule Heater / Wattmeter. To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"MX1bD.0.nm3.RGe5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26941 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/14/1999 14:53:54 Pacific Daylight Time, Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com writes: > The Variac should not affect the waveforms much. It is just an > autotransformer, and if you are working within its amperage > range, it should be OK. It's a 15 amp rated Variac. > I too noticed the Amps = Volts, and wondered how he > achieved this exactly one ohm over a wide temperature > range as the resistors kick out 225 watts. > You need to measure both voltage and current at the > same time (two meters). Two digital meters were used and thats what I saw. > You probably should have a fan going too. > Also the resistors wont last long at the wattage. > Hank Yes, Hank, the resistors are forced air cooled. I am addressing the problem of resistor temperature coefficients. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada PS All, I ordered a cheapo digital camera (150 bucks) so in a week or so if anyone wants a picture of some part of the project I will snap and send to them. Will not post pictures to Vortex I won't be a bandwidth hogger. That's assuming this thing encodes a decent image. All requests honored. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 17:48:05 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA23797; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:46:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:46:20 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <74da6559.2447dcf9 aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:23:21 EDT Subject: Re: H2K- Joule Heater / Wattmeter. To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"gmpcn1.0.hp5.RXe5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26942 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/14/1999 12:59:00 Pacific Daylight Time, fstenger interlaced.net writes: > VCockeram aol.com wrote: > > I constructed a 250 watt ...load... > A few dumb observations and questions, Vince: > > 1. It seems you used 10, 10 ohm resistors in parallel. Correct. > 2. I guess they are rated at 25 watts each. Yes. > 3. Your 257 watt run was at the top of the resistors rating. That's so. The resistors were arranged in vertical position, wired to two 2.75 inch diameter circles of # 12 solid copper wire. The resistor assembly was then mounted inside a 3.875 inch diameter tin plated steel tube, 5.50 inches in length (a coffee can). The steel tube is mounted on an aluminum baseplate with a 3.50 diameter hole cut in the center. A 3.50 inch muffin fan is mounted to the underside of the baseplate. The fan / resistor assembly is mounted on 0.75 standoffs to a maple base. The fan pulls air downward through the tube, cooling the resistors. > 4. Your 13.33 watt run was only 1.3 watts per resistor. That is so. Is this a problem? > 5. It seems your currents were calculated using the network as a one- > ohm shunt - right? No, those are actual meter readings. I used two digital meters, Amperage in series with the load (the Radio Shack) and voltage using the Fluke across the load. Shown below: L1-o-----[VARIAC]--(W)---(A)-----[LOAD]-------o-L2 |___(V)____| At each data point I measured rotor revolution time, wrote that down then recorded voltmeter and ammeter readings. Approximately ten minutes between readings due to short duty cycle of the ammeter. > > Now, I wonder how "flat" the ohms/temperature curve is for these > resistors? Can you put a good ohmmeter on one in both the hot and the > cold condition? Good question. Also easily answered. (1) Take a cold reading of 1 resistor then while still measuring (2) Heat the resistor with a torch (they are ceramic) and... (3) Watch for change with temperature. ( I'll report it here) > Do you have a good shunt around to measure current > independently of the network? Yes, the Radio Shack meter will measure up to 20 amps. Not up to continuous duty though, that's why the watt-hour meter. > At 60 hertz, I would be surprised if the resistor inductance had any > effect. (Someone already said that, right?) Not sure about this. (Scott had said it was way to little to matter with the _tube_ resistor, a 12 turn coil. > If you are using the resistor values to calculate current, I would try > to confirm the resistance somehow. No, I was using the resistors as a load to check the watt-hour meter. I also hand spec'd the resistors to match them. > How good is your low AC voltage readings? +/- 1% with the Fluke 8060A/AA meter. > Also, I wonder how well the variac (?) preserves the > sinusoidal waveform over the test range? > Does anyone else have a feel for this? (The V x I calculation > depends on the right RMS value for the waveforms.) Not at all sure about the variac, but what I am trying to do here with all this is get a warm fuzzy feeling on how the _watt-hour_ meter handles different kinds of loads, regardless of what those loads may be. Known so far: (1) In tests using incandescent lamps and an inductive load two geographically separate tests by two investigators, the watt-hour meter data agreed. Baseline was thoughtfully provided by Scott Little using a Clark-Hess power analyzer. (2) Further tests by me showed that my watt-hour meter was most accurate when measuring a 35 to 50 watt load. Since the HV transformer resistor load tests ( 4-6-99) all ran between 33 and 46 watts, the HV transformer spark load tests (4-1-99) ran between 34 and 79 watts and the florescent lamps tests (4-6-99) all ran between 33 to 38 watts I think we may have, at least a starting point here as to the confidence of the watt-hour meter accuracy and it's best operating point. I want to run the arc (glow?) around the 30 to 50 watt input level and measure temperature differences between H2 no K and H2K at identical fill pressures. Last years testing (5-11-98 ) showed me that the best output (heat) occurred at a fill of 6.0 to 6.5 in Hg. > A lot of subtle stuff at work here, Vince! Yeah, but it's lots of fun trying to sort this all out. That's why I really appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions. I figure if I can get a thorough understanding on how the watt_hour meter behaves I will then have a way to accurately measure power being delivered to the reactor tube. That's why I'm taking so long to do all these different load tests. > > Frank Stenger > Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada (the only dumb question is one that isn't asked) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 18:06:06 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA31113; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:02:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:02:17 -0700 Message-ID: <37168CA2.75E6EDCC erie.net> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:04:34 -0400 From: Norm Biss X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, free_energy@onelist.com, FE-OU-FraudVictims onelist.com Subject: Re: [free_energy] FREE ENERGY References: <13f42b8d.244701ba aol.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------C7A2C14B1A7156946D22DB72" Resent-Message-ID: <"BXawP3.0.1c7.Ome5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26943 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --------------C7A2C14B1A7156946D22DB72 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ASu2431426 aol.com wrote: > From: ASu2431426 aol.com > > Why is the discussion always on scam artists or novelties like drinking > birds?. > > If you want to discuss over unity start with research and development work > by US Navy (Washington D.C. and China Lake), CEREM, NASA, Fiat, Motorola, > Bechtel, SRI, over 200 confirmations and we know of at least 20 active > corporate developments. > > You wont this is in your daily propaganda sheet...they all follow NEW YORK > TIMES which is covering for its advertisers. > > FTIR ASu2431426 aol.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Norm Biss responds. The obvious reason for the discussions turning to scam artists and novelties, is because there are so many scam artists, in addition to "Novelties" being foisted off on an unwary public. While not all experimentation is done with fraud in mind, there are more than a coincedential amount of less than scrupulous individuals, who are involved. Just as obvious, is the fact that almost everyone on these lists have subscribed for the purpose of staying informed as to progress in the various forms of FE/OU being investigated. Most list members are content to accept results as they are given. But in the final analysis, reproducible proof which is verifiable, is necessary to advance any given theory. WE are partly responsible for the abundance of scam artists, because we are not (In some cases), demanding proof of claims made by charlatans. IT IS UP TO US TO POLICE OUR OWN RANKS, AND WEED-OUT THESE PHONIES. In most cases, just a little common-sense coupled with logic will produce a plethora of questions that should be asked. WE are not asking these questions. I am now taking it upon myself to bring forth these questions. I realize that this is not going to sit too well with some subscribers, but I must pose these questions. Maybe it will get some of the other list members to start asking some hard questions themselves! Both Jed Rothwell and Mitchell Jones have had the courage to come forth and voice their opinions (Please note that I did not say skepticism) in regards to the "Newman Motor". In my opinion, I feel that Joseph Newman has milked the public and the Free Energy Movement for the last 20 years. Am I saying that his technology does not have merit? Absolutely not! What I am saying is that he came up with a theory (as yet unproven), but is incapable of personally seeing it thru to completion. I also personally feel that any REAL breakthrough of this technology will be accomplished by Stefan Hartman. Why? Because Stefan is very thorough in his approach to mastering Joe Newman's technology. Am I a big fan of Stefan Hartmann? No. I do, however respect the work ethic and documentation he performs with his experiments. When he performs tests, he not only gives the results, but more importantly he explains how the tests were conducted. This makes the results reproducible by anyone who cares to duplicate the experiment. This also guides others around the pitfalls that did not work. Now, let's apply the same set of standards to Joseph Newman. Joseph Newman announced on the first of February, that his motor was ready to go into production, and delivery was promised by June of this year. Before WE start cheering, let us examine, closely, exactly what is involved to do this. To take an electric motor from the prototype stage, to the production stage, requires about 6~9 months. Any manufacturer of this motor must purchase the necessary tooling, stamping dies, etc. After this is done, it must be assured that these parts are going to fit together in accordance with the schematics and drawings that Joe Newman provided them with. When production starts, the motor must be submitted to UL for testing and approval. Let me clarify something at this point: There is NO Federal law which requires a motor to be UL tested prior to sale. There are, however, several States that do require UL approval, and almost ALL major cities require the same for operation in their jurisdictions. Now lets assume that the motor is only going to be sold in those areas which do not have a requirement for UL approval. Fine. BUT, no insurance carrier will cover any damage or injury caused by a non-UL approved device. This UL approval will take about 4~6 months. Now, lets look at the cost of the motor. Joe Newman is asking for $7,000.00 for each motor. He is also asking for $3,500.00 down payment. If you will go to the following URL: http://www.phact.org/e/skeptic/biss.htm you will find that Joe Newman stated that there is $6,000.00 worth of Neodymium magnets in the prototype motor. (Remember that he is basing his test results on the motor with Neodymium magnets inside it). QUESTION: How can you sell a motor for 7G's, and put 6G's worth of magnets inside it? You can't! Now, if you were to replace the Neodymium magnets with Ceramic magnets, you could do it...........but, The neodymium magnets are rated at 12,000 gauss, while the ceramic magnets are rated at 4,100 gauss. These figures come from the biggest magnet manufacturer in the U.S. Furthermore, in addition to having a motor with about 1/3 the strength of the prototype, you are being given the ole "Bait-and-switch" tactic. Highly illegal. But, let's give Mr. Newman the benefit of the doubt, and assume that the motor he is selling does in fact have the proper magnets inside. He has stated that with 60 volts of lantern batterys, he has achieved 40 RPM. If you will check with your local "Grainger" dealer, he will show you that the AC generators must turn at 3600 RPM to generate electricity. This is 90 times the RPM of Joe Newman's motor tests. In his book, there is a notarized statement by Dr. Roger Hastings, in which he states (Quote) "To power the average home, the motor will require 10,000 Volts, to 20,000 Volts of input power"(End Quote). Now if we assume that the average 6 Volt Lantern Battery costs $3.00 each, this means that each volt costs fifty-cents. This means that in addition to spending $7,000.00 for a motor, another $5,000.00 to $10,000.00 must be spent for batterys. But we can't put our checkbook away yet. Remember that this is just a motor. Now you must spend another $700.00~$800.00 for a Generator, which the motor will power. Oh yeah, there is still the matter of hiring an electrician to make sure that the system is properly configured, in accordance with the electric code. I do not understand how anyone can attempt to even consider buying a motor which has such big claims made for it, but with no proof of testing procedures used to arrive at the figures given for it's capabilities. Finally, I think you must consider the character of the individual making claims for a device, which for the last 20 years, he has been saying will be on sale in a few months. Now I realize that some of the most inventive geniuses in recorded history had some pretty bizarre quirks in their makeup. I personally do NOT have any respect for an individual who would marry an 8-year-old girl, and then say the reason for it was because GOD told him to do it. The following two URL's are articles from the Mobile Press Register Newspaper, Mobile Alabama, and dated the 11th and 14 of August, 1989. These were obtained from the Newspapers Archives, and certified as to their authenticity. The first URL tells of his "Marriage" to his child-bride, and the second URL explains how, three days later, the courts awarded custody of the little girl, and her three year old brother, to the state. Newman was peeved because they took away his child-bride. http://www.phact.org/e/z/8yr.gif http://www.phact.org/e/z/custody.gif If I have offended anybody with my frankness, I apologize. However, everytime one of these scam artists gets funding from private individuals, not only does it take away funding from adherents who are sincere, but has the effect of painting ALL FE/OU experimenters as frauds. I think it is time for US to clean our own house, before the public does it for us. Thank you. Respectfully, Norm Biss Erie, Pa. 4-15-99 normpems erie.net --------------C7A2C14B1A7156946D22DB72 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  
 
 
 
 

ASu2431426 aol.com wrote:

From: ASu2431426 aol.com

Why is the discussion always on scam artists or novelties like drinking
birds?.

If you want to  discuss over unity start with  research and development work
by US Navy (Washington D.C. and China Lake), CEREM, NASA, Fiat, Motorola,
Bechtel, SRI, over 200 confirmations and we know of at least 20 active
corporate developments.

You wont this is in your daily propaganda sheet...they all follow NEW YORK
TIMES which is covering for its advertisers.

FTIR   ASu2431426 aol.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Norm Biss responds.

The obvious reason for the discussions turning to scam artists and novelties, is because there are
so many scam artists, in addition to "Novelties" being foisted off on an unwary public.  While not
all experimentation is done with fraud in mind, there are more than a coincedential amount of less
than scrupulous individuals, who are involved.

Just as obvious, is the fact that almost everyone on these lists have subscribed for the purpose of
staying informed as to progress in the various forms of FE/OU being investigated.  Most list members
are content to accept results as they are given.  But in the final analysis, reproducible proof which
is verifiable, is necessary to advance any given theory.

WE are partly responsible for the abundance of scam artists, because we are not (In some cases),
demanding proof of claims made by charlatans.  IT IS UP TO US TO POLICE OUR OWN
RANKS, AND WEED-OUT THESE PHONIES.

In most cases, just a little common-sense coupled with logic will produce a plethora of questions
that should be asked.  WE are not asking these questions.  I am now taking it upon myself to
bring forth these questions.

I realize that this is not going to sit too well with some subscribers, but I must pose these questions.
Maybe it will get some of the other list members to start asking some hard questions themselves!

Both Jed Rothwell and Mitchell Jones have had the courage to come forth and voice their opinions
(Please note that I did not say skepticism) in regards to the "Newman Motor".

In my opinion, I feel that Joseph Newman has milked the public and the Free Energy Movement
for the last 20 years.   Am I saying that his technology does not have merit?  Absolutely not!  What
I am saying is that he came up with a theory (as yet unproven), but is incapable of personally
seeing it thru to completion.  I also personally feel that any REAL breakthrough of this technology
will be accomplished by Stefan Hartman.  Why?  Because Stefan is very thorough in his approach
to mastering Joe Newman's technology.  Am I a big fan of Stefan Hartmann?  No.  I do, however
respect the work ethic and documentation he performs with his experiments.  When he performs
tests, he not only gives the results, but more importantly he explains how the tests were conducted.
This makes the results reproducible by anyone who cares to duplicate the experiment.  This also
guides others around the pitfalls that did not work.

Now, let's apply the same set of standards to Joseph Newman.  Joseph Newman announced on the
first of February, that his motor was ready to go into production, and delivery was promised by
June of this year.  Before WE start cheering, let us examine, closely, exactly what is involved to do
this.

To take an electric motor from the prototype stage, to the production stage, requires about 6~9
months.  Any manufacturer of this motor must purchase the necessary tooling, stamping dies, etc.
After this is done, it must be assured that these parts are going to fit together in accordance with
the schematics and drawings that Joe Newman provided them with.  When production starts, the
motor must be submitted to UL for testing and approval.  Let me clarify something at this point:
There is NO Federal law which requires a motor to be UL tested prior to sale.  There are,
however, several States that do require UL approval, and almost ALL major cities require the same
for operation in their jurisdictions.  Now lets assume that the motor is only going to be sold in those
areas which do not have a requirement for UL approval.  Fine.  BUT, no insurance carrier will
cover any damage or injury caused by a non-UL approved device.  This UL approval will take
about 4~6 months.

Now, lets look at the cost of the motor.  Joe Newman is asking for $7,000.00 for each motor.
He is also asking for $3,500.00 down payment.  If you will go to the following URL:

http://www.phact.org/e/skeptic/biss.htm

you will find that Joe Newman stated that there is $6,000.00 worth of Neodymium magnets in the
prototype motor.  (Remember that he is basing his test results on the motor with Neodymium
magnets inside it). QUESTION:  How can you sell a motor for 7G's, and put 6G's worth of magnets
inside it?  You can't!  Now, if you were to replace the Neodymium magnets with Ceramic magnets,
you could do it...........but, The neodymium magnets are rated at 12,000 gauss, while the ceramic
magnets are rated at 4,100 gauss.  These figures come from the biggest magnet manufacturer in
the U.S.  Furthermore, in addition to having a motor with about 1/3 the strength of the prototype,
you are being given the ole "Bait-and-switch" tactic.  Highly illegal.

But, let's give Mr. Newman the benefit of the doubt, and assume that the motor he is selling does
in fact have the proper magnets inside.  He has stated that with 60 volts of lantern batterys, he has
achieved 40 RPM.  If you will check with your local "Grainger" dealer, he will show you that the
AC generators must turn at 3600 RPM to generate electricity.  This is 90 times the RPM of Joe
Newman's motor tests.  In his book, there is a notarized statement by Dr. Roger Hastings, in
which he states (Quote) "To power the average home, the motor will require 10,000 Volts, to
20,000 Volts of input power"(End Quote).  Now if we assume that the average 6 Volt Lantern
Battery costs $3.00 each, this means that each volt costs fifty-cents.  This means that in addition
to spending $7,000.00 for a motor, another $5,000.00 to $10,000.00 must be spent for batterys.
But we can't put our checkbook away yet.  Remember that this is just a motor.  Now you must spend another $700.00~$800.00 for a Generator, which the motor will power.  Oh yeah, there
is still the matter of hiring an electrician to make sure that the system is properly configured, in
accordance with the electric code.

I do not understand how anyone can attempt to even consider buying a motor which has such
big claims made for it, but with no proof of testing procedures used to arrive at the figures given
for it's capabilities.

Finally, I think you must consider the character of the individual making claims for a device, which
for the last 20 years, he has been saying will be on sale in a few months.  Now I realize that some
of the most inventive geniuses in recorded history had some pretty bizarre quirks in their makeup.
I personally do NOT have any respect for an individual who would marry an 8-year-old girl, and
then say the reason for it was because GOD told him to do it.

The following two URL's are articles from the Mobile Press Register Newspaper, Mobile Alabama,
and dated the 11th and 14 of August, 1989.  These were obtained from the Newspapers Archives,
and certified as to their authenticity.  The first URL tells of his "Marriage" to his child-bride, and
the second URL explains how, three days later, the courts awarded custody of the little girl, and her
three year old brother, to the state.  Newman was peeved because they took away his child-bride.

http://www.phact.org/e/z/8yr.gif

http://www.phact.org/e/z/custody.gif

If I have offended anybody with my frankness, I apologize.  However, everytime one of these scam
artists gets funding from private individuals, not only does it take away funding from adherents who
are sincere, but has the effect of painting ALL FE/OU experimenters as frauds.  I think it is time for
US to clean our own house, before the public does it for us.

Thank you.

Respectfully,

Norm Biss
Erie, Pa.
4-15-99

normpems erie.net
  --------------C7A2C14B1A7156946D22DB72-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 19:41:11 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA22841; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:39:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:39:55 -0700 Message-ID: <3716A35E.222D interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:41:34 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K- Joule Heater / Wattmeter. References: <74da6559.2447dcf9 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LghyR1.0.la5.xBg5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26944 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram aol.com wrote: > > > 5. It seems your currents were calculated using the network as a one- > > ohm shunt - right? > > No, those are actual meter readings. I used two digital meters, > Amperage in series with the load (the Radio Shack) and voltage using the > Fluke across the load. OK, Vince, that puts my question to bed. The one remaining thing might be the waveforms after the variac acts on them. I only bring this up as a long shot as to why the V x I products might be a little different than average power. This may be a completely bogus idea. Expert opinions welcome! (Scott's on vacation! :-() - sad we can't ask him, happy he's going to have fun!) Frank Stenger Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 20:19:26 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA00368; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:11:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:11:15 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <8cf6fc17.2448036c aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:07:24 EDT Subject: Re: H2K- Joule Heater / Wattmeter. To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"xF6jb.0.f5.Ifg5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26945 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/14/1999 14:53:54 Pacific Daylight Time, Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com writes: I too noticed the Amps = Volts, and wondered how he acheived this > exactly one ohm over a wide temperature range as the resistors kick out 225 > watts. .... > Hank I hung an ohmeter across an identical spare 10 ohm 25 watt ceramic power resistor of the same brand I used to make the 1 ohm load bank. I then fired up the Bernz-O-Matic and heated the resistor to almost red heat.. Ohms at Room Temperature (81 F) was 10.1 Ohms at very high temperature was 14.0 This was _much much_ hotter than the resistors ever get while under load with forced air cooling. Subjective Warning ON-----> Feeling the resistor by touch when it was about the temperature they do get to under load the value was 10.8 ohms. Anyway, down in the range I am interested in where the resistors are dissapating perhaps 2 ~ 5 watts, they are barly warm to the touch. Subjective Warning OFF... I am about ready to begin testing tube temperature with the joule heater providing the input. I think I understand the wattmeter and how it handles both resistive and inductive loads. ( very well I think) Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 20:48:02 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA09394; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:47:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:47:05 -0700 Message-ID: <3716B21A.83786EDF earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:44:27 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chasing Light Leptons with a Tv Picture Tube Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"F7Usj2.0.iI2.vAh5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26946 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex With a few milligrams of Thoria from the Mantles used for Coleman Lanterns (they use Yttria now) the Antineutrinos that accompany the Beta Decay of the Thoria Daughters might fluoresce the phosphor on a TV picture tube. With the electron gun assembly removed, the Deflection Coils can be powered with a variable D.C. supply to create a variable Magnetic Field for sorting the Alpha and Beta particles. IF there is any charge behavior of the Neutrinos/Antineutrinos: R = Mrel*c/q*B then they could be identified by comparison with where the Alphas/Betas strike the Phosphor of the TV Picture Tube (evacuated to a few microns or so with a refrigeration repair grade vacuum pump. If the color centers of the tube responds properly you might be able to determine the Color of the Particles, too. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 15 22:16:47 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA00042; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:14:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:14:08 -0700 Message-Id: <199904160509.BAA01032 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Case Contributions Date: Fri, 16 Apr 99 01:13:14 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"rB9MW.0.a.WSi5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26947 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott wrote, >At 11:51 PM 4/14/99 -0000, E.F. Mallove wrote: > >>I will strongly suggest to Les Case, when I return form a trip tomorrow, >>that he NOT cooperate with Scott in any way. > >Is this your idea of the Golden Rule? "Do unto your fellow CF >investigators as mainstream science is doing unto you." This is my eye for an eye rule, Scott. You screw us with the "pathological science" label, and we screw you. The "golden rule" of new alchemy, so to speak. > >Just because I voice an opinion that YOU don't like, you're going to try to >interfere with my efforts to find out whether or not Dr Case has discovered >the answer we've all been looking for!!!!!? I am not satisfied with your manner of investigation. That should be clear. Let's just leave it as that. Yes, I will, indeed interfere -- at least by telling Case to put all his efforts into what he is doing, not to take time for "have calorimeter will travel." > >I can only see one possible reason for this behavior: if you succeed, it >will give you another year or so of uncertainty about Case's phenomenon >during which you can fantasize that it is real. You are the one fantasizing that there is any doubt about the basic CfFconclusions. Whether Case is absolutely correct abour his experiment remains to be seen. I'm fairly sure that he will be proved correct. I am also failry sure that you will play little or no role in finding out. > >Gene, I WANT to see cold fusion turn out to be real. Anyone who in 1999 is doing experiments to "find out if cold fusion is real" had better go back and study the literature first. I am not satisfied you have done that. > Why else do you think >I work at EarthTech and spend all my time and energy running these >experiments? I'd like to know. I sure don't understand it. > >Thanks for the support. Thank you too. > > Gene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 00:21:56 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA21150; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:21:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:21:05 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Eudora F1.5.1 Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:29:10 +0200 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "JEAN DELAGARDE" Subject: Test Resent-Message-ID: <"FsTde.0.KA5.XJk5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26948 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a test. Forget it From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 02:47:00 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA09836; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:44:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:44:07 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:56:35 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Machiavellian, and Newman to VortB? Thanks Resent-Message-ID: <"NkBu_3.0.SP2.dPm5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26949 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:10 PM 4/15/99, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Folks - > >>> >It was used as the basis for the CIA admission that they, the Intelligence >>> Community, >>> >was and had long been involved in "psychic" espionage and as a means of >>> publically >>> >discounting the public revelations of former "Stargate" remote viewer David >>> >Morehouse who blew the whistle. > > >There has been some very interesting debate recently on the list re CF, and >I've been glad to see it. > >Would it be possible to move this unrelated discussion to vortexB? And while >I'm speaking up on this, I might as well mention too that crossposting to >vortex and freenrg is a violation, and it's annoying. Please stop doing >that. Yes, yes, yes, I agree with Rick. Same goes for discussion of alleged criminality vs virtues of Joe Newman - which was also directed to vortex-b by Bill Beaty some time ago, after years of debate ad nauseum. I believe discussion of *experimental results* re the Newman motor is still on topic here, but crossposting to other newslists is forbidden on vortex-l altogether, as Rick points out. Of course, people who consistently violate the vortex rules generally remain unread and without response, but sometimes it just gets to ya, doesn't it Rick? 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 04:44:32 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA25947; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 04:43:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 04:43:37 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990416074145.00cd8550 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:41:45 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Case contributions In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Hhpxn.0.LL6.f9o5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26950 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:27 AM 4/15/99 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: > Scott says: "In 2 or 3 days, at the location >of your choosing, we can perform a series of calorimetric measurements that >will reveal precisely how much excess heat your device is producing. My >calorimetry will not interfere with the operation of your device. ..." >Scott has already clearly demonstrated he has the ability to do just that. Redirecting the issue back to the science and not the investigators, because that is the important subject, Horace: First, there is no evidence supporting the above, to my knowledge, but there has been preliminary experimental suggesting (albeit in other CF systems) that removing heat will stop at least some of the reactions (discussed previously). Thus, the above appears to be stated, repeated, but unproven. Second, there is not good calibration yet for some types of dual calorimetry (as discussed previously), though it will be probably forthcoming. =========================================================== >"If anyone has the ability to obtain more than marginal and unreliable >excess heat results, they don't seem to be very forthcoming!" If this is about CF, then it is not accurate. Quite a few researchers have had "the ability to obtain more than marginal and unreliable excess heat results". And as importantly, these researchers have been "very forthcoming" (e.g. ICCF-7 http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrefs.html#conferences ). Despite the skeptics comments -- which have themselves provided more "heat" than "light" -- Dieter's and Gene's sites and http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrefs.html#papers show many forthcoming results. This prolonged myopia and inaccuracy by some on vortex [and elsewhere] reminds one of a youth walking outside the building containing a serious AMA convention or MIT working group on some high technologic medical or surgical intervention system and (without entering the building and reading and speaking to the individuals) saying the same simply more-sophomoric than-knowledgable comment. As a corollary, some of the purported O/U and F/E systems might do well to examine how some CF scientists have attempted to focus on the sci and eng., and then publish more of their results. [Have enjoyed this thread though ;-)X ] Have a good day. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 06:32:56 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA13579; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 06:30:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 06:30:59 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990416133725.016ae34c popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:37:25 -0400 To: William Beaty , freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: [free_energy] FREE ENERGY Resent-Message-ID: <"rrPDk3.0.wJ3.Ikp5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26951 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:48 AM 4/16/99 -0700, William Beaty wrote: >As long as secrecy is the order of the day, >it will be impossible to tell who is who. 'Black Project' protocall ... oh forget it. Government protecting the interests of Free Energy researchers from machinations? How would anyone get reelected? >Without secrecy, the task would be much easier. Follow the money. Is it >being used for research, or is it ending up as an enormous personal >salary? Test the devices. Does the inventor claim success, but always >have excuses for why the device cannot be tested? By the same token, where is the money coming from? Will work just end up classified and put on a shelf? If a sculpture with anomolous plasma phenomena associated with asymmetrical electrodes (and possibly the Biefeld-Brown effect) is acceptable, I could come up with that. The sculpture would have to end up on public display at a Science Museum or the like however. A certain Jed person mentions new stuff is worth $10,000.00 a prototype. Being up front and center is no problem with me. Otherwise, I'll probably just explain what I can here. If you guys out there are playing chicken with global weather catastrophy, I give up, you win. Dennis Unified Field Art http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/UFA1.JPG From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 08:44:14 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA31161; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:40:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:40:26 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990416113918.0079e7a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:39:18 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Case contributions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"2vLfC2.0.lc7.gdr5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26952 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner writes: Scott Little is not qualified to do calorimetry? That's a laugh! His results already speak for themselves. Scott is an excellent and dedicated professional, fully qualified to do exactly as he says. No one disputes his ability to do calorimetry, but that is only 10% of the problem. He knows little about electrochemistry and cold fusion. If he understood these subjects he would know that nobody could do "exactly as he says:" "In 2 or 3 days, at the location of your choosing, we can perform a series of calorimetric measurements that will reveal precisely how much excess heat your device is producing. My calorimetry will not interfere with the operation of your device." Calorimetry always interferes with the operation of a CF device, or an ordinary electrochemical cell, or a heat engine. The calorimeter is integral to the experiment; it *must* have an effect. A person who flies to a site, sets up an experiment, and expects definitive results in a few days is asking for trouble. It might work, and then again it might not. As Bockris said, "an expert will come in for two weeks, nothing will happen, and at 3 o'clock in the morning the day after he leaves the thing starts generating tritium like crazy." If the experiment fails, your flying hot 3-day-wonder outside expert is likely to make absurd & damaging pronouncements. Or, the experiment might work, and he might fail to see that it worked. In 1989, Nathan Lewis at Cal Tech did a cold fusion experiment. The temperature rose 1 deg C about the calibration line, which is a giant temperature difference with laboratory grade equipment. Lewis said this was not excess heat. He concluded that the cell calibration constant had changed! Such a large change is inconceivable, and if it did happen, the experiment should have been dismissed as one of the sloppiest in modern history. Yet this experiment is cited by all the leading experts and the DoE as one of the "big three" that proved cold fusion does not exist! Human emotions have no influence on the physical events in a test tube, but this fiasco -- and countless others like it -- proved that a bad attitude, pig-headed foolishness, or an overgrown ego can prevent an expert from seeing the obvious truth, even when it is waved in front of his face in the form of a 1 degree C temperature rise. A person who claims there are no known control parameters in cold fusion is a loose cannon. He is blind to reality and he has no business in a laboratory. That is like a doctor who says bacteria don't matter; we have no idea what causes infectious disease. Even if Little did see heat, I would not trust his judgement based on a 3-day trip. A person has to see excess heat in cold fusion experiments day after day, year after year, in 10 or 20 experiments before you can trust his judgement. It has to be a normal, expected, everyday phenomenon to him. Once you find a good cathode, cold fusion heat is robust and it sticks around for weeks. You test it, poke it, recalibrate on the fly, turn it off and on again, and it is still there. Until you do that, I do not believe your results. As SRI said, the effect is neither small nor fleeting. If it disappears, it isn't cold fusion. It is just another calorimeter screw-up, and I have seen quite enough of them, thank you. Recent events surrounding Folkman's angiostatin cancer treatments and progress in cloning mammals illustrate the dangers of listening to 3-day-wonder instant experts. A person who thinks he can set up and run an experiment in a few days to judge a complex scientific issue, and who is sure his technique "will not interfere," is a menace. Scott has already clearly demonstrated he has the ability to do just that. To the contrary, he never tried to measure critical parameters -- apparently because he does not think they exist. He visited Storms, he saw the instruments and techniques first hand, and yet he says they do not exist! That is appalling. You might as well say it doesn't matter what's in that silicon, skip the analysis, go ahead and make a transistor. N, P? What's that? Who cares? Stick in those wires and crank 'er up. How could this possibly be in question? I do not see how could anyone take him seriously after what he said here in recent days. I have seen a parade of people like him march through cold fusion, spreading havoc and confusion. Some make positive claims, some negative. They claim astounding, unheard-of abilities. They can do an experiments in three days that Oriani, who has 50 years of experience, says will take months. They say they "guarantee" their technique will have an effect -- or no effect. They will not read the literature or learn from what others have done. They should be ignored. He is one of the people in this field with complete integrity. Why? He has never tried to measure loading, expansion, OCV, or the other critical parameters, although people like Storms and I have warned him about this many times over the years. That means he has never done a cold fusion experiment. He has no degree in chemistry, electrochemistry or physics. He knows nothing about materials. He has never published a credible paper on cold fusion. (Calorimetry, yes, but not cold fusion.) He has no standing in the field. He is so confused about the basic literature that he thinks SRI's success rate is 1 in 100. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 08:50:25 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA02696; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:46:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:46:49 -0700 Message-ID: <005501be8820$343b8700$754bccd1 default> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: "Case Contributions" - a tragedy Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:44:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"ILFmq2.0.2g.ejr5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26953 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This thread throws into stark contrast two views of the CF field and the tragedy that careless words can ignite. I will state a personal view which may not be precise in all facts. Scott Little and EarthTech have for some years been examining and testing various OU claims and devices. The record is apparently one of continuous failure. He has been open about his tests and results. However, in many cases of record his experiments may have resembled those of the claimants, but in no instance I am aware of was there actual replication of the reported experiments. Instances that come to mind include the Potopov Yusmar, the Patterson Power Cell, the Mills BLP gas phase reactor, and the Case cell, among others. In each of these instances various members of vortex have pointed out ways in which Scott's experiments were fatally flawed, so his negative reports cannot be construed as reflecting on the truth or falsehood of the claims "tested". All that can be said of these tests is that the respective technologies are not well enough understood and adequately described so that a person like Scott can reproduce them. This is what might be called the Scott Test. This is not to denigrate Scott's work or skills he may have achieved in years of work. The Scott Test actually has some value, as an index of whether a technology is ready for prime time and the largess of EarthTech's backers. The Scott Test is by no means an existence proof, in fact it fails drastically, for there are other phenomena, such as tritium and helium production, transmutations, etc., which are existence proofs in a scientific sense. Jed has quite adequately discussed this and I will only point to the Arata & Zhang work which I summarized in IE, and reportedly Mike McKubre has verified at SRI. A&Z robustly produced megajoules/gm of energy and 4He in repeated experiments over a period of years. This is a high rate of success in a small number of experiments. Scott is correct that in many past instances the CF phenomena were so hard to reproduce that it took skill just to produce the effect, much less poke at it to see what is going on, to characterize it. The same can be said of lots of other science studies, like whole organizations to support a high energy accelerator. There are instances, like the plasma electrolysis cells, which produce robust transmutation products as reported in IE 24 in experiments run by Ed Wall. Scott has earned respect for his skill in calorimetry and has built a calorimeter of acknowledged quality. He has then moved to a claim to be the singular arbiter of validity of CF/LENR claims. He said to Jed: ------- It's the very fact that you (and others) have pinned the success of a cold fusion experiment on parameters that are almost impossible to achieve that is slanted. In fact, that's a classic symptom of pathological science. You can rant and rave all you want but there is simply not enough data to prove your position. It is still a hypothesis. --------- He has allowed himself the pride of labeling work **he** cannot reproduce or not certified by **his** personal calorimeter as "pathological science", the inflation of a hypothesis to fact. This is insulting to the work of others, shows limited study of the literature, and Jed and Gene are justified in taking him to task for it. An apology is in order. Scott has done this from the comfort of years of support from a source of great wealth. Gene has not had Scott's luxury. Readers of vortex should take time to read Gene's testament in IE 24, where the whole story of MIT's misrepresentation of their own positive results to the government ERAB committee helped set the stage for a decade of struggle to establish to LENR field. Gene put his professional life on the line, quitting a cushy job at MIT in protest, and establishing IE as a journal of growing prestige. Through the help of some benefactors, Gene now has some help and facilities, but for several years IE was literally a desktop publishing venture from a room in Gene's house. Gene and Jed are admittedly open advocates, but responsible ones, of CF and LENR against an established opinion that what they advocate is "pathological science". Scott, in using that term, was inflammatory in the extreme. The purpose of NERL is similar to EarthTech, to test claims for OU devices and to attempt to replicate reported effects. At present, it's Ed Wall who is carrying the ball at NERL. His background is engineering, as is Scott's, and is working hard to metamorphose into a research scientist. He will be joined by Jeff Kooistra, who will also assist Gene with the magazine. Tests run by Ed, Gene and Jed are a mixed bag, with encouragements and disappointments, reported in IE for all to see. Scott has given valuable assistance to Ed in the matter of calorimetry. Gene also has associates that are ready to provide substantial development support when devices pass muster at NERL. By the way, Mitchell Swartz has contributed accurate and useful observations to this thread. Mitchell has also worked carefully with meager resources to establish well defined and published experimental proofs of CF, and to maintain a newsletter with a very high information density. Enough, gentlemen. Time out. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 09:05:50 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA10679; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:04:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:04:13 -0700 Message-ID: <37176034.827C0584 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:07:23 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Information source References: <3.0.1.32.19990416113918.0079e7a0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1w6Lo1.0.hc2.yzr5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26954 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To readers who are interested in learning more about cold fusion: For those of you who would like to have a convenient source of information about cold fusion, Iím offering a collection of papers which you can order by sending $25 to the address below. This cost barely covers the cost of reproduction and mailing so this offer is more a public service than a profit making offer. I have reprinted the DESCRIPTION of the collection below to give you an idea of what you will be getting. I will also send at a later date a copy of the critical review of the Pons-Fleischmann Effect Iím presently writing. Collected Information About the New Science of Chemical-Nuclear Interaction Edmund Storms 2140 Paseo Ponderosa Santa Fe, NM 87501 April, 1999 DESCRIPTION This collection of papers describes a new field of science which studies how and why nuclear reactions can be initiated in various unique chemical environments. Included are three general reviews, six technical papers describing some of the authorís work, and four papers in which the author gives his personal opinion of studies by other workers. The collection gives a complete guide to the present status of the field and is essential to an objective evaluation. Focus has been on experimental measurement although a brief discussion of the various explanations is also provided. No theory presently explains all of the observations or is even generally accepted by people within the field. Nevertheless, the limited insights continue to advance our understanding of solid-state chemistry and nuclear physics. The pot is being stirred with expectation of soup worth tasting From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 09:15:32 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA15269; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:12:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:12:59 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990416121236.0079e650 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:12:36 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Information source Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"9CoHD2.0.Vk3.B6s5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26955 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed: Are these papers copyright? If they are not, and as you say, "This cost barely covers the cost of reproduction and mailing so this offer is more a public service than a profit making offer," you are going about this the wrong way. Put the papers on the Web! Get with it, Ed! Catch the wave. All public domain papers should be on web pages, whenever possible. I wish we could publish everything there and somehow ensure a revenue stream. With improved Internet protocols I expect we will be able to do that someday. If you do not have a web page account our you do not want to bother, send the papers to us in electronic form and we will post them. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 09:27:18 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA21359; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:25:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:25:25 -0700 X-Acceptable-Use-Policy: http://www.cwnet.com/aup.html Message-ID: <37170200.DF31C52 cwnet.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:25:24 +0000 From: Jones Beene Reply-To: jonesb9 cwnet.com Organization: IdeaWorks Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chasing Light Leptons with a Tv Picture Tube References: <3716B21A.83786EDF earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"a4oTF3.0.fD5.rHs5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26956 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > With a few milligrams of Thoria from the Mantles used for Coleman > Lanterns (they use Yttria now) the Antineutrinos that accompany the Beta > Decay of the Thoria Daughters might fluoresce the phosphor on a TV picture > tube. Use an old computer/monitor and you could have the added ability of sending a precise signal pattern. Use a Mac, in dual monitor mode, and you could watch the two side by side. However would a few milligrams from an old mantle be enough to generate anything viewable? What about a thoriated welding rod? You could even power it as a cathode, if that would help... on second thought, that would probably overwhelm any weak decay signals... Regards, Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 10:44:25 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA22631; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:42:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:42:52 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:55:19 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Case contributions Resent-Message-ID: <"V5sbT3.0.XX5.SQt5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26957 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:41 AM 4/16/99, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > At 09:27 AM 4/15/99 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >> Scott says: "In 2 or 3 days, at the location >>of your choosing, we can perform a series of calorimetric measurements that >>will reveal precisely how much excess heat your device is producing. My >>calorimetry will not interfere with the operation of your device. ..." >>Scott has already clearly demonstrated he has the ability to do just that. > > Redirecting the issue back to the science and not the >investigators, because that is the important subject, Horace: >First, there is no evidence supporting the above, to my knowledge, Then either you have not visted as referenced here dozens of times or your demand for evidence is extraordinarly high - far higher than that you require for proof of CF itself. >but there has been preliminary experimental suggesting (albeit >in other CF systems) that removing heat will stop at least some >of the reactions (discussed previously). Yes indeed, but this argument is contrived and specious as applied to Case and Little. In *all* CF excess heat experiments heat flow *of some magnitude* is inevitable because the thermal resistance (including radiation coefficients) of the device, or *any* device or component, is finite. If there is a difference between ambient temperature and the device temperature, then there will be heat flow. If there is never any difference in temperature, the device is inert. To have any meaning whatsoever, the excess heat experiment will be expected to produce heat. The experimental design thus requires the control of the thermal resistance R to the environment, which always exists and is finite. Scott has control of this thermal resistance by imposing insulation between the device and the calorimeter envelope, as has been fully argued before. If you were to make a sensible argument, it would be the *opposite.* Namely, that imposing extra insulation will *raise* the R value, thus possibly increase the heat excessively and cause destruction of the catalyst or device. This argument is inapplicable to Case because his problem has been in achieving *sufficient* insulation, due to dewar leaks, etc. At best, the validity of this argument, as applied in general, would only be that doing the calorimetry would require reduction of the R value of the experiment in order to do the calorimetry. However, it is further invalidated by the fact the calorimeter, being computer controlled, and containing both heating and cooling capability, permits control of the operating temperature. The portable device Scott has put together, due to his use of a Peltier device in the calorimetry fluid loop, has both heating and cooling capabilities. I would like to point out that this could actually PROVIDE THE VERY INGREDIENT THAT CASE NEEDS TO MAKE THE DEVICE SELF SUSTAIN SUCCESSFULLY! The calorimetry itself can provide both the cooling required to achive steady state and the initial heating necessary to maintain the catalyst at a design temperature,correcting for the excess heat output varyiing through time, as it would be expected to do. This computer controlled heating and cooling capability has clearly been a missing ingredient in the Case experiments, at least as described here. Thermal runaway, on the other hand, has been described as a problem. Scott may have the solution to Case's various problems standing ready. What a waste. Too bad if impediments might be thrown up by petty infighting, etc. As Jed has pointed out many times before, it is practically a crime against humanity to thwart or delay development in this area. Encouraging progress is the only humane position. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 10:56:56 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA30121; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:55:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:55:51 -0700 Message-ID: <371778E2.30AEB2D1 earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:52:35 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chasing Light Leptons with a Tv Picture Tube References: <3716B21A.83786EDF earthlink.net> <37170200.DF31C52@cwnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-edwU3.0.VM7.dct5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26958 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > With a few milligrams of Thoria from the Mantles used for Coleman > > Lanterns (they use Yttria now) the Antineutrinos that accompany the Beta > > Decay of the Thoria Daughters might fluoresce the phosphor on a TV picture > > tube. > > Use an old computer/monitor and you could have the added ability of sending a > precise signal pattern. Use a Mac, in dual monitor mode, and you could watch the > two side by side. You can get used (junker) tv sets with picture tubes as large as 25 inches or more for a song. The only electrical stuff you need is a variable D.C. on the deflection coils to vary the magnetic "B" field. > > > However would a few milligrams from an old mantle be enough to generate anything > viewable? One should see about 3.6 decays/ second per milligram from the Thoria which should be enough for the dark adapted eye to see on the used tv (or computer monitor) tube. The trick is in getting the tubes up to atmospheric pressure safely so that the electeron gun etc., can be removed, the radioisotope inserted, then pumped down to a few microns or so pressure. Then you go into a darkened room with it, and and view "Tv Worth Watching". :-) Regards, Frederick > Regards, > Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 11:31:39 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA14697; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:29:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:29:44 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990416142931.007ae2f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:29:31 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Case contributions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"StTzP3.0.Xb3.N6u5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26959 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner writes: Yes indeed, but this argument is contrived and specious as applied to Case and Little. In *all* CF excess heat experiments heat flow *of some magnitude* is inevitable because the thermal resistance . . . Yes, of course there must a heat flow, but the argument is not contrived. It is based on copious experimental data, especially from Pons and Fleischmann. For example, see ICCF4, p. 5-23, showing what happens when a flow calorimeter flow is interrupted and cell heats up rapidly. This is exactly what Fleischmann predicted, based on his own experiments. The experimental design thus requires the control of the thermal resistance R to the environment, which always exists and is finite. Scott has control of this thermal resistance by imposing insulation between the device and the calorimeter envelope, as has been fully argued before. Well, he has some degree of control. But suppose it turns out the Case device is quite sensitive to this, like a heat engine or a fission reactor? How would Scott know, in three days, that he has set the thing up correctly to emulate the required heat paths? Fleischmann, McKubre and others have argued persuasively that most flow calorimeters inhibit bulk Pd reactions, mainly because there is evidence that rapid changes in temperature help trigger the reaction. We do not know whether the Earthtech equipment would have a positive effect, a negative effect, or none at all, and I doubt that three days would be long enough to find out. I would like to point out that this could actually PROVIDE THE VERY INGREDIENT THAT CASE NEEDS TO MAKE THE DEVICE SELF SUSTAIN SUCCESSFULLY! Possibly. Maybe. I would not want to try to find out in three days. And if did not work, I would not want to hear what Scott Little concludes from the result, because he has also concluded there are no control parameters, which, as I said, is like asserting that bacteria never cause illness. (Proof: lots of people are exposed to bacteria but they remain healthy. Right?) The calorimetry itself can provide both the cooling required to achieve steady state . . . Steady state is the opposite of what you want -- in the initial phase, anyway. As Jed has pointed out many times before, it is practically a crime against humanity to thwart or delay development in this area. And it is damn foolishness to expect some cocksure guy to walk in off the street and master calorimetry *as it applies to cold fusion* in three days. A guy who has never seen a hot CF cell or seriously tried to replicate on his own! Who does he think he is? This is not a science fiction movie or a television drama. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 11:42:24 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA20201; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:41:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:41:03 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:53:22 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Case contributions Resent-Message-ID: <"7dgVn.0.Ux4.-Gu5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26960 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:39 AM 4/16/99, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Horace Heffner writes: > > Scott Little is not qualified to do calorimetry? That's a > laugh! His results already speak for themselves. Scott is an > excellent and dedicated professional, fully qualified to do > exactly as he says. > >No one disputes his ability to do calorimetry, but that is only 10% of the >problem. But that is ALL he is trying to do. Why do you insist on dragging in all the old true believer CF argument baggage? THAT is 90% of the problem in my opinion. All it generates is talk, and after so many years of it now, boredom. You are preaching to the choir when you argue to me for CF research. However, that is irrelevant to the issue of applying Little's calorimetry to Case's device. >He knows little about electrochemistry and cold fusion. Completely irrelevant. >If he >understood these subjects he would know that nobody could do "exactly as he >says:" > >"In 2 or 3 days, at the location of your choosing, we can perform a series >of calorimetric measurements that will reveal precisely how much excess >heat your device is producing. My calorimetry will not interfere with the >operation of your device." > >Calorimetry always interferes with the operation of a CF device, or an >ordinary electrochemical cell, or a heat engine. The calorimeter is >integral to the experiment; it *must* have an effect. A person who flies to >a site, sets up an experiment, and expects definitive results in a few days >is asking for trouble. It might work, and then again it might not. As >Bockris said, "an expert will come in for two weeks, nothing will happen, >and at 3 o'clock in the morning the day after he leaves the thing starts >generating tritium like crazy." It is insanity to continue for years to mix criteria and goals like tossed believer salad and data stew. This is why I suggest defining a "breakthrough" experiment. Aside form adding motivation and possibly prestige, such an waward could help define the moment and at least make conversation easier. About the "interference:" it is not necessarily the case that change is introduced if the calorimeter merely replaces thermal insulation with its own insulation and the calorimeter fluid runs at ambient temperature. On the other hand, the calorimeter can be used to *improve* control of the experimental conditions. > >If the experiment fails, And there is your fear. If so, so what? There are plenty of failed experiments. I have done dozens of them. So what. What we need to focus on is getting a single stunning breakthrough success. The failures mean nothing, even if they happen by the millions. >your flying hot 3-day-wonder outside expert is >likely to make absurd & damaging pronouncements. Or, the experiment might >work, and he might fail to see that it worked. In 1989, Nathan Lewis at Cal >Tech did a cold fusion experiment. The temperature rose 1 deg C about the >calibration line, which is a giant temperature difference with laboratory >grade equipment. Lewis said this was not excess heat. He concluded that the >cell calibration constant had changed! Such a large change is >inconceivable, and if it did happen, the experiment should have been >dismissed as one of the sloppiest in modern history. Yet this experiment is >cited by all the leading experts and the DoE as one of the "big three" that >proved cold fusion does not exist! So they blunder! What is missing is a breakthrough experiment. >Human emotions have no influence on the >physical events in a test tube, but this fiasco -- and countless others >like it -- proved that a bad attitude, pig-headed foolishness, or an >overgrown ego can prevent an expert from seeing the obvious truth, even >when it is waved in front of his face in the form of a 1 degree C >temperature rise. A person who claims there are no known control parameters >in cold fusion is a loose cannon. He is blind to reality and he has no >business in a laboratory. That is like a doctor who says bacteria don't >matter; we have no idea what causes infectious disease. You're just preaching to the choir. However, you must agree a stunning breakthrough success would quickly make the opposition impotent, even if they protested to death. > >Even if Little did see heat, I would not trust his judgement based on a >3-day trip. A person has to see excess heat in cold fusion experiments day >after day, year after year, in 10 or 20 experiments before you can trust >his judgement. No argument there, except that is THE PROBLEM! We need to fix this requirement. >It has to be a normal, expected, everyday phenomenon to him. >Once you find a good cathode, cold fusion heat is robust and it sticks >around for weeks. You test it, poke it, recalibrate on the fly, turn it off >and on again, and it is still there. Until you do that, I do not believe >your results. As SRI said, the effect is neither small nor fleeting. If it >disappears, it isn't cold fusion. It is just another calorimeter screw-up, >and I have seen quite enough of them, thank you. > >Recent events surrounding Folkman's angiostatin cancer treatments and >progress in cloning mammals illustrate the dangers of listening to >3-day-wonder instant experts. A person who thinks he can set up and run an >experiment in a few days to judge a complex scientific issue, and who is >sure his technique "will not interfere," is a menace. > > > Scott has already clearly demonstrated he has the ability to do > just that. > >To the contrary, he never tried to measure critical parameters -- >apparently because he does not think they exist. There you go again! Scott has repeatedly said his objective is only to measure the excess heat, NOT OPERATE OR DESIGN THE EXPERIMENT! >He visited Storms, he saw >the instruments and techniques first hand, and yet he says they do not >exist! That is appalling. You might as well say it doesn't matter what's in >that silicon, skip the analysis, go ahead and make a transistor. N, P? >What's that? Who cares? Stick in those wires and crank 'er up. > > > How could this possibly be in question? > >I do not see how could anyone take him seriously after what he said here in >recent days. Being a true believer of any kind is a negative qualification for providing scientific confirmation. >I have seen a parade of people like him march through cold >fusion, spreading havoc and confusion. Some make positive claims, some >negative. They claim astounding, unheard-of abilities. They can do an >experiments in three days that Oriani, who has 50 years of experience, says >will take months. There you go mixing apples, oranges and red herring again. >They say they "guarantee" their technique will have an >effect -- or no effect. They will not read the literature or learn from >what others have done. They should be ignored. > > > He is one of the people in this field with complete integrity. > >Why? He is honest. He is not selling anything. He is a contributor. He is fully open. He has a long and open track record here. He does and means what he says. Why would you question his integrity? >He has never tried to measure loading, expansion, OCV, or the other >critical parameters, although people like Storms and I have warned him >about this many times over the years. That means he has never done a cold >fusion experiment. He has no degree in chemistry, electrochemistry or >physics. You keep forgetting Earthtech has PhDs on staff. What are your qualifications, BTW? >He knows nothing about materials. He has never published a >credible paper on cold fusion. (Calorimetry, yes, but not cold fusion.) He >has no standing in the field. He is so confused about the basic literature >that he thinks SRI's success rate is 1 in 100. All irrelevant to the issue, which is confirming Case's excess heat results. Enough red herring stew! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 12:03:23 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA30307; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:01:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:01:46 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:13:59 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Information source Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA30233 Resent-Message-ID: <"yUjtg.0.NP7.Qau5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26961 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:07 AM 4/16/99, Edmund Storms wrote: >To readers who are interested in learning more about cold fusion: > >For those of you who would like to have a convenient source of >information about cold fusion, Iím offering a collection of papers which >you can order by sending $25 to the address below. This cost barely >covers the cost of reproduction and mailing so this offer is more a >public service than a profit making offer. I have reprinted the >DESCRIPTION of the collection below to give you an idea of what you will >be getting. I will also send at a later date a copy of the critical >review of the Pons-Fleischmann Effect Iím presently writing. This is a great service! I'll send a check, but I feel like you should make something from the effort. Maybe a publisher would take it? You could sell a book via amizon.com, etc., and avoid all the trouble sending out copies individually. If no one else is interested, I would have a possible interest in financing publication. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 12:16:05 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02478; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:13:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:13:44 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990416192009.016ee270 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:20:09 -0400 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: [free_energy] FREE ENERGY I give up, you win Resent-Message-ID: <"LPxTs3.0.Qc.elu5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26962 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:37 AM 4/16/99 -0500, you wrote: >Well unless things change in our society and the world in general, I am a >convert. Still working around the clock on development, yet putting all >paper in the chipper. If I get there, get a device, I'll attempt to cut a >deal. YES! I'll be honest. Would you give up everything you have to come and >support me and my device when I'm up against the wall ? Very, doubtful. How >many off the street people even understand the concept of what Free Energy >means to the world and civilization ? Really when 73% coming out of our >schools can't answer 6x8/2, you think humanity would be served ? OK, I'm finally convinced. It's a waste of time working in this Free Energy area. And the CF stuff doesn't really interest me. I think I'm going to build that tornado proof geodeisic dome cluster. If you'd like to see a bitmap (soon to be 3D solid) of the design, download and install the Dreamland browser, log into Dreamland, and teleport to coordinates 46S 13W. All you people out there, should the need for extra heavy duty housing arise in the future, check the Dreamland site. First estimates of the construction costs is $20.00/square foot. Concrete shell, 2x8 framing, 7" insulation, plywood, and drywall. 25' diameter, 15' height. When you guys come up with an energy device, I'll buy one and retrofit it to the domes. So, you CIA guys don't be too quick to bump me off, you might need to buy my dome cluster design. BTW, I'd almost be insulted if you guys didn't plant a bug or something here. What, you don't think I'm good enough to come up with something? So if you are watching, keep an eye on my stuff when I'm out and about, OK? Let's see, who will be out to crush me for building domes? The real estate construction magnates, eh? Later folks; Dennis Circle Of Fire - Dreamland - VR Avatars! Great Fun! http://www.artbellchatclub.com Wait a minute, we could upload 3D models of CF apparatus (or Free Energy Devices) into a VR dome room! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 12:33:42 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA10708; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:32:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:32:42 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <68bb9734.2448ea07 aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:31:19 EDT Subject: Re: H2K- Joule Heater / Wattmeter. To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"k66jJ2.0.9d2.P1v5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26963 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/16/1999 08:29:16 Pacific Daylight Time, Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com writes: > Vince > Sounds like you are covering all the bases. Yes, I'm trying to. Maybe even making progress thanks to all the feedback to my posts here. _Very_ much appreciated ! If you get any spare cash, get yourself an oscilloscope. .... That's on my wish list. > Hank All, I am running joule heater temperature calibration runs today. The first data point is in the book. Happy to say the V * I / watt-hour meter checked out just about perfect at a factor of 1.009. This was at a 12 watt input to the joule heater. This give me a good confidence factor in the watt-hour meter measurements. Will post results here this evening. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 14:42:51 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05476; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990416173518.007a9df0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:35:18 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: List of CF control parameters Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id OAA05431 Resent-Message-ID: <"TlZA8.0.OL1.Wsw5t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26964 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote "No one disputes his ability to do calorimetry, but that is only 10% of the problem." Horace Heffner responds: But that is ALL he is trying to do. Why do you insist on dragging in all the old true believer CF argument baggage? THAT is 90% of the problem in my opinion. All it generates is talk, and after so many years of it now, boredom. You are preaching to the choir when you argue to me for CF research. However, that is irrelevant to the issue of applying Little's calorimetry to Case's device. Horace, you are seriously missing the point. It is not irrelevant, it is CRITICAL. Little's calorimeter may not work with Case's device. There is good reason to think it might interfere. Measuring heat cannot be ALL he does, because temperature related factors are control parameters. Let us get back to basics. I keep talking about control parameters. Let me list them. In 1993, Ikegami defined the four conditions necessary for the CF effect: 1. Current density must be => 0.2A/cm^2 of the palladium cathode surface. [Occasionally, much higher current densities are needed. - Storms] 2. The ratio of deuterons absorbed into the palladium; the D/Pd ratio must be => 0.85. 3. Appropriate surface modification of the palladium is needed. 4. The temperature of the palladium must be => 80°C. People debate the relative importance of these factors and the exact loading ratios and temperatures needed, but I think there is a large body of data supporting these four starting parameters. Various people subsequently added conditions to this list, starting with Fleischmann, who wants to see: 5. Rapid changes in temperature. THIS may be critical, and this is where a flow calorimeter will adversely affect the experiment. Not everyone agrees this is a critical parameter, and there is not as much clear-cut data showing this, but there is enough for serious concern. Anyway . . . McKubre added: 6. High flux (deuterium moving in and out of the lattice) Ed Storms added a bunch of extremely important material considerations, his data is excellent, and much of it is supported by others, so I do not see how people can quarrel with these: 7. No cracks or voids. 8. No excess volume above 2% 9. No bubble formation until composition exceeds PdD[0.65]. Even outgassing above that. No large bubbles. 10. No critical surface impurities (poisons), as defined in the paper . . . A complicated business. 11. High OCV. And most recently De Ninno adds: 12. Grain size at or below 50 microns. Highly amorphous material. It turns out there is good evidence for this in earlier literature. Huggins and others knew about it all along. See his 1989 paper. I think that is a fairly complete list . . . Remember that some of the items on this checklist devolve into a series of sub-items, such as techniques for measuring loading. My point is, when one thing goes wrong on this checklist, the experiment fails. Ducks #1 through 12 may be in a row and good to go, but if #5 is wrong . . . you see no heat, no reaction. The temperature is too stable, too quiescent, or too low. This is where the calorimeter interferes in the experiment. As I said, not all CF scientists would agree this is critical. Storms has expressed doubts. But I think Fleischmann's data and McKubre's dramatic 368 kJ heat burst are convincing. (ICCF4, p. 5-23 -- wish I could attach this graph, but I do not think SRI would approve.) All the other ducks were lined up in a row, the cathode was loaded, primed and ready to go, and a calorimeter malfunction caused the sudden temperature rise which triggered the event, just as Fleischmann predicted. I do not know whether Scott Little has enough control over his calorimeter to ensure a similar, rapid temperature change, or what the magnitude of the change should be, or how well he can emulate the thermal conditions in the existing setup, which are peculiar (hot bottom, cool top). The calorimeter might work as is, straight of the box. All I know is that heat losses and the heat loss paths are important, and that in other experiments the calorimeter itself has played a key role, clobbering the reaction. It is insanity to continue for years to mix criteria and goals like tossed believer salad and data stew. This is why I suggest defining a "breakthrough" experiment. Aside form adding motivation and possibly prestige, such an waward could help define the moment and at least make conversation easier. *I* am not mixing criteria. Mother Nature is! She insists that ALL parameters be met, including temperature related ones. Most chemistry and physics experiments are like that. We cannot cut the experiment into sections and meet one parameter at a time. Pons and Fleischmann defined a breakthrough experiment back in 1989. The definition has been sharpened, expanded and focused ever since. It has become easier to do, and harder to do. Easier for those who have the skills and instruments to measure the parameters; harder for people who ignore them and flounder in the dark. About the "interference:" it is not necessarily the case that change is introduced if the calorimeter merely replaces thermal insulation with its own insulation and the calorimeter fluid runs at ambient temperature. On the other hand, the calorimeter can be used to *improve* control of the experimental conditions. YES! Maybe it can. Maybe not. Maybe it interferes, maybe it doesn't. We will not know until we do the experiment. As you see at SRI, the experts take these things one step at a time, pausing for months at each step. You do not see them rushing the Case cell into a flow calorimeter. They would never do it in three days! Based on McKubre's informal comments, I thought they were more confident of the present calorimetry, but Fran Tanzella says no. One thing I do predict with 99.9999% assurance: IF the Earthtech calorimeter is a critical factor in the Case experiment, it would take a lot longer than 3 days to learn how to manipulate this new control factor handle. You will have to go back and forth between the calorimeters for weeks. There you go again! Scott has repeatedly said his objective is only to measure the excess heat, NOT OPERATE OR DESIGN THE EXPERIMENT! That can't be done, as I hope I have demonstrated, and the SRI graph so dramatically illustrates. You measure -- you operate, and it's your design, like it or not. Mama Nature does not let you compartmentalize. What are your qualifications, BTW? None whatever! And I do not have a glove box, a microgram scale, a furnace or a SIMS machine. That is why you do not see me trying to do the experiment. Savvy? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 15:55:32 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA00029; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:51:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:51:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3717BFB7.4A35CB55 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:54:56 -0600 From: Edmund Storms Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Information source References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"y2rp81.0.A.sxx5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26965 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > At 10:07 AM 4/16/99, Edmund Storms wrote: > >To readers who are interested in learning more about cold fusion: > > > >For those of you who would like to have a convenient source of > >information about cold fusion, Iím offering a collection of papers which > >you can order by sending $25 to the address below. This cost barely > >covers the cost of reproduction and mailing so this offer is more a > >public service than a profit making offer. I have reprinted the > >DESCRIPTION of the collection below to give you an idea of what you will > >be getting. I will also send at a later date a copy of the critical > >review of the Pons-Fleischmann Effect Iím presently writing. > > This is a great service! I'll send a check, but I feel like you should > make something from the effort. Maybe a publisher would take it? You > could sell a book via amizon.com, etc., and avoid all the trouble sending > out copies individually. > > If no one else is interested, I would have a possible interest in financing > publication. > Horace, Thanks for the offer. We can discuss this possibility. The collection was created to provide information to interested people at the Future Energy Conference in Washington, coming up at the end of April. I just thought you all on vortex might be interested as well. The collection consists of papers which have been previously published in Fusion Technology, Infinite Energy and J. Scientific Exploration. The collection just makes the information more accessible. On the other hand, I am interested in writing a book which would address the scientific aspects of this phenomenon. Naturally such a book would have very limited sales, hence would have to be done as a public service. At the present time, I do not have the resources or time to devote to such an effort. If CANR picks up steam, this could change. Regards, Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 16:54:01 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA17960; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:49:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:49:36 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:41:02 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re: Case Contributions In-reply-to: <199904160509.BAA01032 mercury.mv.net> X-Sender: kurtz imap2.asu.edu (Unverified) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <199904162341.QAA26446 smtp2.asu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"t1ido.0.YO4.Goy5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26966 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:13 AM 4/16/99 +0000, you wrote: >Scott wrote, > >>At 11:51 PM 4/14/99 -0000, E.F. Mallove wrote: >> >>>I will strongly suggest to Les Case, when I return form a trip tomorrow, >>>that he NOT cooperate with Scott in any way. >> >>Is this your idea of the Golden Rule? "Do unto your fellow CF >>investigators as mainstream science is doing unto you." > >This is my eye for an eye rule, Scott. You screw us with the >"pathological science" label, and we screw you. The "golden rule" of new >alchemy, so to speak. > >> > > >Yes, I will, indeed interfere -- at least by telling Case to put all his >efforts into what he is doing, not to take time for "have calorimeter >will travel." >> >>I can only see one possible reason for this behavior: if you succeed, it >>will give you another year or so of uncertainty about Case's phenomenon >>during which you can fantasize that it is real. > >You are the one fantasizing that there is any doubt about the basic >CfFconclusions. Whether Case is absolutely correct abour his experiment >remains to be seen. I'm fairly sure that he will be proved correct. I am >also failry sure that you will play little or no role in finding out. >> >>Gene, I WANT to see cold fusion turn out to be real. > >Anyone who in 1999 is doing experiments to "find out if cold fusion is >real" had better go back and study the literature first. I am not >satisfied you have done that. > >> Why else do you think >>I work at EarthTech and spend all my time and energy running these >>experiments? > >I'd like to know. I sure don't understand it. >> I can't believe what I have been reading in this thread! Gene, don't you realize that 99.99% of the people in the world who "doubt cold fusion is real" are not going to go "study the literature" to check it out? Why should they anyway, given that they wouldn't understand a thing about it? If cold fusion is so certain and real as you claim, you have a huge PUBLIC RELATIONS problem, not a scientific one. Personally, I think that if this thread were to be published in some widely read media such as TIME magazine, it would do even more damage to the credibility of the cold fusion subject in the eyes of the public. Don't you and Jed have a clue how you come across? --Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 18:35:38 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA23822; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:34:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:34:26 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <596a8504.24493e9f aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:32:15 EDT Subject: Re: H2K- Joule Heater / Wattmeter. To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"eqY-J.0.8q5.YK-5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26967 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Ran joule heater calibration today. Here is transcript out of my lab notebook. April 16,1999 Tube resistance heater 30 turn coil nichrome wire 2.17 ohms cold Ambient air temp 82 deg F Run at 5.130 volts in 27.5 in Hg vacuum for 60 minutes (note, 27.5 is best indicated vacuum the pump will pull) Calculated amps - 2.370 Calculated watts - 12.193 (R=2.17 ohm) Measured watts (Westinghouse Type CS watt-hour meter) - 12.084 Purge with H2 3 times: H2 fill to 1 atm., pump down, 3 times. Final pump down to 20.5 in Hg, close off vacuum pump. Bake for 60 minutes at 20.5 in Hg with voltage at 5.094 Adjust fill to 20.5 in Hg and run additional 30 minutes - pressure steady. RUN--------VOLTS------TEMP C +/- 0.1 C-----WATTS----- 5v-----------5.094--------------355.1-----------------12.099 6v-----------5.999--------------419.1-----------------17.364 7v-----------7.026--------------481.6-----------------24.175 8v-----------8.087--------------543.1-----------------31.954 9v-----------9.100--------------598.8-----------------41.379 10v-----------9.953--------------643.4-----------------49.790 end of run Unknown is what the nichrome heater resistance is at temperatures over ambient. Don't think it's a problem as I am using the watt-hour meter to measure true power delivered to the heater. I monitored voltage only to get reasonable measurement points. Would love to be able to set the input voltage _exactly_ but the variac is a devil to tweak. (maybe fit it with a geared adjustment knob?) Also would like to get a few more data points at >10 volts but was afraid to go higher as the heater element was at bright yellow heat at 10 volts and didn't look like it could take much more. I plotted the data using Lotus123 (tm) and have a very nice set of curves (pretty straight actually) for the data. I want to redo this series starting at 4.5 volts in 1 volt steps up to (I hope) 10.5 volts to be sure the data points fall on the same plot. Another step forward. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 19:13:17 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA03488; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 19:10:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 19:10:11 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990417021648.016fb4c0 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 22:16:48 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: Case Contributions Resent-Message-ID: <"2bp921.0.Ns.2s-5t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26968 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:41 PM 4/16/99 -0700, you wrote: >At 01:13 AM 4/16/99 +0000, you wrote: >>Scott wrote, >> >>>At 11:51 PM 4/14/99 -0000, E.F. Mallove wrote: >>> >>>>I will strongly suggest to Les Case, when I return form a trip tomorrow, >>>>that he NOT cooperate with Scott in any way. >>> >>>Is this your idea of the Golden Rule? "Do unto your fellow CF >>>investigators as mainstream science is doing unto you." >> >>This is my eye for an eye rule, Scott. You screw us with the >>"pathological science" label, and we screw you. The "golden rule" of new >>alchemy, so to speak. >> >>> >> >> >>Yes, I will, indeed interfere -- at least by telling Case to put all his >>efforts into what he is doing, not to take time for "have calorimeter >>will travel." >>> >>>I can only see one possible reason for this behavior: if you succeed, it >>>will give you another year or so of uncertainty about Case's phenomenon >>>during which you can fantasize that it is real. >> >>You are the one fantasizing that there is any doubt about the basic >>CfFconclusions. Whether Case is absolutely correct abour his experiment >>remains to be seen. I'm fairly sure that he will be proved correct. I am >>also failry sure that you will play little or no role in finding out. >>> >>>Gene, I WANT to see cold fusion turn out to be real. Perhaps, well designed zingers like the above are what the salary really pays for. They're alot easier to figure than calorimetry I bet. >> >>Anyone who in 1999 is doing experiments to "find out if cold fusion is >>real" had better go back and study the literature first. I am not >>satisfied you have done that. >> >>> Why else do you think >>>I work at EarthTech and spend all my time and energy running these >>>experiments? >> >>I'd like to know. I sure don't understand it. >>> > >I can't believe what I have been reading in this thread! Gene, don't you >realize that 99.99% of the people in the world who "doubt cold fusion is >real" are not going to go "study the literature" to check it out? Why >should they anyway, given that they wouldn't understand a thing about it? >If cold fusion is so certain and real as you claim, you have a huge PUBLIC >RELATIONS problem, not a scientific one. What if CF apparatus were 3D modeled and uploaded into Dreamland Virtual Reality? Then a group could meet there as avatars and be able to discuss, say the calorimetry hardware as it sits there in front of everybody. >Personally, I think that if this >thread were to be published in some widely read media such as TIME >magazine, it would do even more damage to the credibility of the cold >fusion subject in the eyes of the public. > >Don't you and Jed have a clue how you come across? Doesn't Scott work with Hal Puthoff who gets CIA grants? I wonder what Mr. Puthoff had to sign with the CIA? Who are the financial backers for EarthTech? I say build a finite time thermo stirling engine module tuned for CF output. Getting something to run is a little more concrete than coming up with a bunch of numbers and measurements. http://www.nexusworld.com/nova/catpage8.html Gadzooks, back already; Dennis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 16 20:40:41 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA25910; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:37:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:37:25 -0700 Message-ID: <3718019B.2FBD081B earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:35:56 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: Joule heating (Variac Vernier) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"i-JhH2.0.mK6.p706t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26969 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince You can use a 2nd Variac across the output of the first one as a "Vernier". Cheaper than trying to do it with gearing. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 17 00:00:46 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA08443; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 00:00:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 00:00:10 -0700 Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 02:59:16 -0400 From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> Subject: Re: List of CF control parameters Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Message-ID: <199904170259_MC2-725F-E397 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA08427 Resent-Message-ID: <"_oJfg.0.r32.v536t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26970 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace said: >> About the "interference:" it is not necessarily the case that change is introduced if the calorimeter merely replaces thermal insulation with its own insulation and the calorimeter fluid runs at ambient temperature. On the other hand, the calorimeter can be used to *improve* control of the experimental conditions.<< Then Jed responded: >>YES! Maybe it can. Maybe not. Maybe it interferes, maybe it doesn't. We will not know until we do the experiment. << Touche!!! So why not let Scott bung his apparatus at Case and see what happens? Norman Horwood From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 17 02:52:08 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA05140; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 02:47:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 02:47:20 -0700 Message-ID: <01BE88BF.AB6979A0 ip200.vpop143.psi.net.uk> From: "N. A. Palmer" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: List of CF control parameters Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:24:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BE88BF.AB8B0B60" Resent-Message-ID: <"4QwXp1.0.5G1.dY56t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26971 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE88BF.AB8B0B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jed, (and every one else) As I understand it, the Case cell is seen as a relatively robust device = that could be shipped around the country and would reliably produce the = excess heat/temperature signal quickly using off-the-shelf catalyst, = just by passing D2 through it at a certain temperature. There was no = extreme procedure to be followed in order to get adequate loading of the = catalyst - grain size, and all the other "materials" specifications, are = already taken care of because the cell uses a commercially manufactured = product. Now it seems likely that it is necessary to have extreme control over = cell geometry/insulation/heat flow/catalyst dimensions etc in order to = create a SELF SUSTAINING cell, but not just to demonstrate the basic = signal. If the basic signal (that has been seen often - including by the = IE team) appears relatively easily then the only argument can be about = whether it is merely an excess temperature effect caused by the = differential dynamics of heat transfer in the "D2 cell" (as opposed to = the "null result" with the "H2 cell"), or whether the apparatus is = actually generating heat beyond chemistry. It appears as if Case has tried at least several different = configurations of Dewars and insulation to move towards a self-sustainer = and it looks to me as if this jiggery-pokery hasn't completely rendered = the excess heat/temperature signal unobtainable, therefore this does not = look like a critical parameter. Scott is offering to differentiate, in a = cell generating the excess SIGNAL, between an excess heat and an excess = temperature signal. If Scott surrounds a working Case cell with his = calorimeter whilst the cell continues to be measured as producing the = excess signal, then it will be clear pretty soon whether or not the = effect is real energy production or just a discovery about the finer = details of heat transfer in different isotopes of hydrogen. If Scott's = apparatus causes the excess SIGNAL to die away, then any report that = Scott comes up with can merely say that he found that the apparatus is = sensitive to being surrounded by his calorimeter which will be nowhere = near as negative as Jed fears. Scott does not need 50 years experience in materials science = (commercially available materials) and electrochemistry (no electrodes = here anyway!) to do this simple discriminatory test. Stop blustering = Jed! Scott shouldn't have used the term pathological science, but Jed and = Gene are now flailing around in a stew of rhetoric that seems to be to = be approaching almost Newman'esque proportions. sincerely, Nick Palmer = - Jersey Friends of the Earth ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE88BF.AB8B0B60 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhUJAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAoAEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAARQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHZvcnRleC1sQGVza2lt by5jb20AU01UUAB2b3J0ZXgtbEBlc2tpbW8uY29tAAAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAD MAEAAAAUAAAAdm9ydGV4LWxAZXNraW1vLmNvbQADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAWAAAA J3ZvcnRleC1sQGVza2ltby5jb20nAAAAAgELMAEAAAAZAAAAU01UUDpWT1JURVgtTEBFU0tJTU8u Q09NAAAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAAeAPZfAQAAABQAAAB2b3J0ZXgtbEBlc2tpbW8uY29tAAIB 918BAAAARQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHZvcnRleC1sQGVza2ltby5jb20AU01U 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mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA07063; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 04:59:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 04:59:06 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 03:11:39 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: List of CF control parameters Resent-Message-ID: <"3hLIg1.0.Dk1.AU76t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26972 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:35 PM 4/16/99, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] > About the "interference:" it is not necessarily the case that > change is introduced if the calorimeter merely replaces thermal > insulation with its own insulation and the calorimeter fluid > runs at ambient temperature. On the other hand, the calorimeter > can be used to *improve* control of the experimental conditions. > >YES! Maybe it can. Maybe not. Maybe it interferes, maybe it doesn't. We >will not know until we do the experiment. It appears Jed that you do not understand what I am saying. All your parameters are meaningless to my argument. If Case can run his experiment and produce excess heat in say a dewar wrapped in an agreed upon additional insulation covering of say several inches of fiberglass, that is all that is required to do calorimetry without significant interference. This is not a guess but an assertion which can readily be demonstrated. If the experiment produces heat, that heat already moves through his insulation envelope to the ambient environment. Hopefully Case controls his ambient temperature to some extent, at least within a few degrees, else his measurements are probably meaningless as is, and he should do his experiment in at least an HVAC controlled space. Assuming an approximately constant ambient temperature, and an experiment running long enough to achieve steady state, that is constant internal temperature Ti with ambient temperature To, there will be a specific constant heat flux through his insulation, which consists of an inner layer of insulation of large thermal resistance Ri and the outer uniform layer of large thermal resistance Ro. The heat flux q is given by q = (Ro + Ri) (To - Ti) If the calorimeter envelope consists of an inner layer of insulation of resistance Ri with copper tubing carrying a fluid at temperature To, and an outer layer of insulation of thermal resistance Rx, then the outer layer of insulation is moot. The outer ambient temperature also is comparatively moot, because the temperature of the copper coil becomes the temperature To in the heat flow calculation. The outer layer of insulation of resistance Ro need only be made fluffy an bulky enough such that copper pipe can be nicely wrapped around it. The pipe size and fluid velocity can be chosen so that the mass flow is sufficient to generate only a few degrees temperature difference between the pipe inlet tmeperature T1 and outlet temperature T2. The inlet temperature can be set so that the average temperature (T1+T2)/2 = To. The small differential T1 - To, being about 1 deg., has no appreciable effect on a measurement where Ti ~ 200 deg. C and To ~ 32 deg. C. Assuming the temperature difference T1 - T2 can be measured to 0.02 deg. C, a plenty accurate estimate of heat flow is obtained. About the calorimetry, it is thus not a case of "Maybe it interferes, maybe it doesn't." It is a case where proper planning can *guarantee* that the calorimetry does not interfere with the base run. It is all in the manner in which the outer layer of insulation of thermal resistance Ro is chosen in the base run done prior to the calorimetry being applied, before Scott is on the scene. Even that is not too terribly important. You can wrap copper pipe around most anything. That's my opinion anyway. Maybe Scott will have a different view when he returns from vacation. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 17 08:01:56 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA10745; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 07:58:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 07:58:05 -0700 From: mrb ap.net Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990417075959.007d8810 mail.ap.net> X-Sender: mrb mail.ap.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 07:59:59 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: hot fusion article In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"fLhw6.0.pd2.z5A6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26973 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.cnn.com/NATURE/9904/16/fusion.energy.ap/ This describes the current Princeton work in hot fusion. Budget numbers will be of particular interest to the CF community. Mark Goldes Magnetic Power Inc. Room Temperature Superconductors Inc. (a subsidiary) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 17 09:24:18 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA01353; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:20:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:20:23 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 07:32:56 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: List of CF control parameters Resent-Message-ID: <"orYhl.0.0L.6JB6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26974 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I earlier wrote: The heat flux q is given by q = (Ro + Ri) (To - Ti) I obtained this from the full one dimensional constitutive (Fourier's) law as given by: q(x) = -k(x) dT(x)/dx where k is the thermal *conductivity.* I neglected to invert the thermal *resistance* R values so I should have said: q = [1/(Ro + Ri)] (To - Ti) Note also that a heat flow out of the calorimeter is considered negative. This is only a clerical error. The rest of my post is unchanged. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 17 11:10:02 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA07364; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:09:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:09:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199904171804.OAA26783 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Case contributions Date: Sat, 17 Apr 99 14:08:24 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"uO3Qo1.0.-o1.DvC6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26976 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, I called Les Case yesterday to tell him that I did not think it was a good idea to have Scott Little come for a visit with his calorimeter. I mentioned Scott's general bad attitude that I have discussed earlier, up to and including his recent foray into the "pathological science" accusation against cold fusion. I told Case that whether he worked with Scott or not was his own call, but that I would advise against it. Well, my call to Les Case apparently neither added nor subtracted from Scott Little's standing with Les Case. Case said that he had "no intention of teaming up with him. He wastes my time." those were the exact words. Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 17 11:12:18 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA07330; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:09:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:09:15 -0700 Message-Id: <199904171804.OAA26761 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Case Contributions Date: Sat, 17 Apr 99 14:08:18 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id LAA07304 Resent-Message-ID: <"DqEWu3.0.So1.BvC6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26975 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lynn Kurtz wrote: > >I can't believe what I have been reading in this thread! Gene, don't you >realize that 99.99% of the people in the world who "doubt cold fusion is >real" are not going to go "study the literature" to check it out? Of course I realize that. Does that justify them pissing on it on national TV etc when they publicly admit they have not studied it -- e.g. Prof. Feshbach of MITon June 11, 1996? >Why >should they anyway, given that they wouldn't understand a thing about it? What? Come again? >If cold fusion is so certain and real as you claim, you have a huge PUBLIC >RELATIONS problem, not a scientific one. You are absolutely right and we have known that for 8 years now. > Personally, I think that if this >thread were to be published in some widely read media such as TIME >magazine, it would do even more damage to the credibility of the cold >fusion subject in the eyes of the public. Nah -- it can't get lower than it alread is in TIME. Did you catch my letter to TIME that was posted earlier? The following item will appear in IE #25: ****** Time Magazine¹s ³Time-100² Special Issue of March 29th, ³Cranks, Villains, and Unsung Heroes² On the other extreme, this article just about hit the bottom of the barrel in insulting, ignorant reporting on cold fusion. Its four authors received the following letter from this editor To: Frederic Golden, Leon Jaroff, Jeffrey Kluger, Michael D. Lemonick March 31, 1999 Dear Sirs: I do not know which of you were primarily responsible for the vile outrage of designating Drs. Fleischmann and Pons as ³Cranks² in your March 29, 1999 ³Time-100.² To witness them portrayed in infamy on same page (albeit in a different category) as the Naz i villain Josef Mengele, stretches my tolerance for your so-called science reporting to the limit. Since all of you are signed as authors of this most reckless assertion about Fleischmann and Pons, I am sending to each of you a possible corrective for your intellectual confusion: issue #24 of Infinite Energy, which celebrates the 10th anniversary of th e cold fusion announcement. In particular, I draw your attention to our selection of the top 34 referenced technical papers in peer-reviewed and non-peer reviewed literature that show clear evidence for the cold fusion class of phenomena. You should also examine the historical facts presented in this issue, which are at variance with the cartoon history that intellectually challenged ³science journalists² such as yourself routinely parrot. I have scant hope that scientific papers and correct historical facts can influence people who were so thoughtless in this nearly libelous disparagement of these two discoverers. Still, I would welcome a sincere effort on your part to give Time readers th e correct story. Had you placed Fleischmann and Pons in the category of ³unsung heroes² on the next page‹along with Alfred Wegener‹you would have been correct. You chose instead to present a highly misleading cartoon of what really happened to these pion eers and what is going on in the cold fusion field today. This attack on two outstanding scientists and those many hundreds of scientists who continue their work constitutes journalistic sloppiness at its worst Sincerely, Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy > >Don't you and Jed have a clue how you come across? Don't YOU have a clue about how YOU are coming across? You are clueless, telling us things about PR that we already know as though you are some wizard. Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 17 12:09:53 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA28293; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:09:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:09:00 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <41631103.244a35ec aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:07:24 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: Joule heating (Variac Vernier) To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Ly6Mw.0.ov6.CnD6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26978 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/16/1999 20:40:23 Pacific Daylight Time, fjsparber earthlink.net writes: > Vince > You can use a 2nd Variac across the output of the first one as a > "Vernier". Cheaper than trying to do it with gearing. > Regards, Frederick Frederick, I think a vernier knob sells for about 10 bucks...a Variac goes for 130 bucks..! Vince From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 17 12:11:25 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA27830; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:08:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:08:21 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <4b95288e.244a35f0 aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:07:28 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: Joule heating (Variac Vernier) To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"OxXy9.0.ko6.amD6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26977 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, I added six additional data points to yesterdays joule heater calibration starting at 4.5 volts in 1 volt steps up to 10.5 volts. Voltage was only used as a marker point for the watts temperature data. The Westinghouse watt-hour meter was used to measure wattage. V - 4.501------------T - 314.8-------------W - 9.858 V - 5.598------------T - 389.7-------------W - 15.376 V - 6.536------------T - 452.6-------------W - 21.019 V - 7.566------------T - 514.6-------------W - 28.598 V - 8.500------------T - 568.0-------------W - 35.564 V - 9.597------------T- 626.6--------------W - 45.971 V - 10.553-----------T - 678.2--------------W - 55.987 Tomorrow if I can get it set up, first runs with arc in H2. I would like to configure the tube with a 1 inch electrode gap as this will match the joule heater active length. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 17 12:17:56 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA32221; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:17:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:17:06 -0700 Message-ID: <001901be8906$c75e2ec0$484accd1 default> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Existence Proof and the Scott Test Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:12:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZM_M42.0.Mt7.ouD6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26979 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Much of the acrimony in the CF/spf/vortex debate revolves about different standards of proof, which are givens for each person and so unstated, and perhaps unrealized (since they are so 'obvious'). Herewith an ambitious attempt to sort them out. Q1. Does there exist at least one reaction involving nuclear particles that does not conform to the standard understanding of such processes? F&P's answer, after five years of work and personal investment of ~$100,000, was Yes, for a reaction involving deuterium and palladium. What followed was years of personal attacks and denial by the physics establishment. Among the events was sloppy work by Harwell and CalTech and misrepresentation by MIT of internal results to the ERAB committee, and a decade of official denial of Existence of CF by the government and the physics establishment. The machinations of Park and Zimmerman are only the most recent examples. Q2. What are the signatures of this reaction? F&P's answer was excess heat and neutron radiation for their experiment. The neutron signature was the most easily attacked, since the values F&P reported did not conform to the standard Rutherford DD reaction observed in plasmas. F&P retracted their report of neutron radiation, but not the excess heat signature. As the experimental work went forward in many labs, weak neutron radiation has been seen under some, but not all, circumstances -- so it is possible that F&P's observation was correct. The heat signature has become the battleground of the debate ever since. Heat is fundamental and (apparently) easily measured. But it has to be greater that any possible chemical reaction, storage effect, or experimental error. If excess heat is definitely present, then it is compelling evidence that the answer to Q1 is Yes. In the decade since F&P, the excess heat has been confirmed in many experiments. Not only does it manifest in the sense of power -- rate of production, but in total energy released. The most public of these demonstrations are the Patterson Power Cell in several venues, climaxing at PowerGen 95. The extreme numbers from Jed's measurements -- over a kilowatt power yield for a short period -- have been challenged by Mitchell Jones and Mitchell Swartz. What is not challenged is that the power yield was far over unity, by a factor of dozens or hundreds for a period of hours. There is also the "heat after death" phenomenon, in which loaded cathodes remain hot for hours after the electrolysis current is shut off. McKubre has measured excess heat of lower magnitude but with such precision that there is no room for error of measurement or procedure left. The details are in a large report which must be studied to be appreciated. The experiments of Arata & Zhang show clearly energy yields far beyond chemical means, and are being duplicated by McKubre using cathodes prepared by A&Z. Mitchell Swartz has reported excess heat with nickel cathodes in carefully optimized experiments. Such work is far more thorough that anything that Scott can do with his calorimeter. A desperate attack on these many experiments is that few are actual replications of the same configuration by different observers; they are similar experiments producing qualitatively similar but not numerically identical results. Q3. Does there exist a plurality of reactions satisfying the criterion of Q1? The answer is clearly Yes after a decade of research. This is why there are now conferences on Low Energy Nuclear Reactions and sessions at meetings of the American Physical Society and the American Nuclear Society, and why Professor Miley now heads a LENR laboratory at the University of Illinois.The F&P experiment is only the first of a parade of discoveries. Q4. What are the signatures of these reactions? In the instances of DD in Pd, it involves the production of substantial 4He as seen in the A&Z, Case, and other experiments. McKubre reports that 4He is produced in quantities commesurate with the excess heat produced. This is not what is predicted by the Rutherford (plasma) reaction, nor is the hard neutron and gamma radiation of the Rutherford reaction seen. Transmutations are seen in numerous experiments with different targets under different conditions. It isn't just the Rifex experiment which Scott says he performed carefully, but made procedural errors. There are many others. Transmutations are clear evidence of nuclear reactions, and they can occur with energies in the "chemical" range. Most obvious of these are the plasma electrolysis experiments of Ohmari and others. Confirmations are reported from Russia and elsewhere. In a cell run by Ed Wall, 114.5 mg of calcium was found in the electrolyte after the run, even though no calcium was present in any of the materials of the cell. Scott tested an Ohmari-type cell and found no excess heat, but he did not look for the transmutation products. It is clear that the range of LENR (or Chemically Assisted Nuclear Reactions) significant excess heat may or may not be present under some specific conditions. Also is the appearance of tritium in experiments by several researchers. This is a clear, clear signature of nuclear reactions. The common factor of all this work is the loading of a metallic lattice with deuterium or protium by any of several means. --------------------- Commentary: The complexity of LENR or CANR are as baffling as chemistry before Dalton and other pioneers began to put order into the experiments. This has given leverage to critics looking for simple, glib answers to basic questions. It is also a stumbling block to commercialization, where the most obvious product is a simple, safe water heater. The complexity is also such that the scientifically paradigm-shaking findings are buried in technical papers beyond the ken of the public or even many science writers. The application of transmutation to nuclear waste remediation is going slowly and against the very considerable investment in glassification and burial, which has gathered its own institutional empire in the decades of fights over this. The battle Gene and Jed have been fighting is over the existence proof in the face of institutional denial and the endless carpings of assorted critics. Official denial of existence proofs has blocked investment by the government and other institutions in the LENR field, while hundreds of millions are dumped into high energy fusion, which has yielded and will yield no commercially useful result. The Scott Test is about heat producers ready for commercial investment. Scott sees proof only in his calorimeter. Jed sees existence proofs in papers done by qualified scientists which he repeatedly cites, and critics don't read. they cite other, less rigorous, reports. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 17 12:27:54 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02435; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:26:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:26:14 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990417193305.01636c54 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:33:05 -0400 To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: For King and Country.. Resent-Message-ID: <"veM622.0.wb.L1E6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26980 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:12 AM 4/17/99 -0500, you wrote: >Alan, > I enjoyed your comments....good thoughts. >Joe Portman >=========== >> On Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:38:26 -0500, "Joe Portman" wrote: >> >Here's another of mine; "A man can learn a lot stumbling around in the >> >dark" >> >> Man who stumble around in dark had best wear armour plating on >> shins. I thought it sounded kind of scary too. Threw me off, I thought I heard that duh before but maybe not. Then I realized, Portman, oh haha. Whatever. Obviously learning while stumbling implies negative results are possible in such uncoordinated circumstances but for some reason I felt that more ominous undertones of meaning were present in the way it was delivered, I guess. So, I didn't get a chance to say that a sort of understanding that I'm 'under the wing' so to speak, of a certain most honored professor. I guess most honored professor responsibilities include being fast enough to grab student by arm and pulling back before anything really stupid results. Although, I'd like to think that I would have researched enough to know to be cautious of processes that may cause bubbles to form in glass let's say. (I'd like the IGV planet thumbtack concept reviewed again also). A new material may not be researched enough to have such data in the reference shelves. A good most honored professor would seem to have a 'thought frame rate' that would appear sort of slow (I think he just gets to check more of one's 'squares' this way to an unbelievable extent) and relaxed to the point where, that perhaps after the first electrode disappeared, a close inspection and reflection of the situation would certainly result. I fully sympathize that in the enthusiasm and excitement when experiencing profound levels of discovery, one might very well wait for more electrodes to be shipped, and then proceed to quickly 'pop' them in, one by one, in rapid succession. We should all wish the good professor proper health and wellbeing as his longevity is directly proportional to a hopefully worthy student's level of understanding, which accordingly reduces the possibility of difficulty in much later times. Of course, a worthy student will be thoughtfull of coherent interconnected knowledge and respect all who care enough to synergistically build each other's levels in the interest of the greater good. But a most honored professor is on a level of his own and one can only wonder how might it be possible to live up to and rightfully continue such accomplishment. I've been fortunate enough to see what a wellspent, five million dollar education looks like; brand new state of the art knowledge as far as the eye can see. There hasn't even been enough time to get the textbooks updated with even a small percentage of this information. A certain most honored professor will listen a bit to one's understanding receital of this brand new subject and might say something like, not so new, 'analogous row below'. Realization of implications sets in bringing one to the only place left, weeping with (in? of?) wonder and amazement. You take a week or two to recover then you make another phonecall and shoot the breeze with him some more. Oh if only certain wheels of production could roll before a certain wedding day. I bought about half his books so far. I most highly recommend paying the good professor the $5,000.00 to $6,000.00 dollars it costs to purchase the volume set. Read the whole thing through. I don't know why, but you will then have more 'squares' to work with I believe. >> Another viewpoint is ... complexification follows on from >> inadequate understanding. >> There are two types of complexity. These are intrinsic complexity and >> perceived complexity. >> Perceived complexity usually results from lack of understanding of >> the system being examined. Once the understanding is there, the >> perceived complexity largely vanishes and the intrinsic complexity >> is much easier to deal with. Yes, I think these thoughts would help things flow more smoothly if used in practice. Can I quote, and credit you authorship in my email signiture when I fix up the file soon, Alan? Regards; Dennis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 17 14:00:48 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA24786; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 13:59:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 13:59:59 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990417210651.016ddb1c popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 17:06:51 -0400 To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: List of CF control parameters Resent-Message-ID: <"RR_J-2.0.436.EPF6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26981 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >So why not let Scott bung his apparatus at Case and see what happens? I hope this is a typo. If I have to deal with such an issue, all technical participation and help will be immediately withdrawn; without exception. This issue has no place in any project. Most Seriously; Dennis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 17 17:58:39 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA26018; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 17:57:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 17:57:30 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:55:41 -1000 Subject: Re: For King and CROSSPOST - NOT... From: "Rick Monteverde" To: "Vortex-L" Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <199904172114.SM00200 [206.127.240.158]> Resent-Message-ID: <"bRAMU1.0.OM6.wtI6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26982 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Again, PLEEEZE turn off the CC crossposting. Is that just too much to ask? Sincerely, - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 17 19:47:20 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA19915; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:45:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:45:02 -0700 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199904180245.VAA17728 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Case contributions In-Reply-To: <199904171804.OAA26783 mercury.mv.net> from "E.F. Mallove" at "Apr 17, 99 02:08:24 pm" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 21:45:01 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"P72RS.0.4t4.jSK6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26983 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gene Mallove wrote: > I called Les Case yesterday to tell him that I did not think it was a > good idea to have Scott Little come for a visit with his calorimeter. That is unfortunate. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 651-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 17 20:03:03 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA23903; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 20:02:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 20:02:02 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 18:14:37 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Park takes note of Mallove (again) Resent-Message-ID: <"2sQSr2.0.Lr5.giK6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26984 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I haven't been following sci.physics.fusion for some time, but happened to see there is now an "Academias Neutronium" posting there. Could it be Archie Pu has changed his name again, or is this competititon? The following is an excerpt from a post by Benjamin P. Carter on sci.physics.fusion: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Following is an excerpt from WHAT'S NEW, by Robert L. Park, Friday, 16 Apr 99, Washington, DC: COLD FUSION: PONS AND FLEISCHMANN CITED IN TIME MAGAZINE. The magazine devoted a special issue to The Century's Greatest Minds. However, the two "fusion pioneers," as they are referred to in Infinite Energy magazine, did not actually make the list of scientists and thinkers. Instead they were listed along with Wilhelm Reich, the discoverer of "orgone energy," as "cranks" of the Century. This did not sit at all well with Eugene Mallove, the editor of Infinite Energy, who fired off a letter to the editors of the issue, calling the designation a "vile outrage." - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 17 20:35:39 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA32100; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 20:34:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 20:34:52 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 17:32:28 -1000 Subject: Re: Case contributions From: "Rick Monteverde" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <199904172351.SM00200 [206.127.240.158]> Resent-Message-ID: <"kZbdC.0.Ur7.RBL6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26985 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John - >That is unfortunate. It really seems that way to me too, although I suppose it is somewhat moot since Case already wasn't going to bother. But I'm still not getting the part where Jed & Gene can go on and on about CF researchers closing themselves off from open exchanges and cooperation on their experiments etc. etc., and then recommend so strongly against Scott. I know, I read their reasons, but somehow it still strikes me as having some hypocrital tones to it. If Scott came out and they both found that Case's experiment could go inside Scott's calorimeter without negatively affecting the necessary properties of either set of equipment, it seems to me that it would be worth trying. Gene admits that public relations is what the big problem is, and I agree that a nice self-sustainer would really go long towards that end, much more than yet another set of calorimetric measurements which have proven so easy for the profoundly skeptical to simply wave off every time. But it still doesn't feel right somehow. 2 cents worth, maybe less. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 18 09:13:47 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA29114; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 09:12:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 09:12:35 -0700 Message-ID: <371A03DF.9858F421 earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:10:08 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Resonance Temperatures for Light Lepton Production & CF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6QPcM3.0.q67.pHW6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26986 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex In the ongoing Neutrino-Antineutrino research the masses have been bracketed at less than 0.5 ev and most likely about 0.07 ev or so for each Lepton. This corresponds to a temperature of about 812 Degrees K or 539 Degrees C, which would imply that the Sun (6000 to 14 million K) or a Hot Plasma, is too hot for producing many of these Light Lepton Pairs. Once produced in an electron-hydrogen or electron-deuterium "collision" (dE = h/dt) these Neutrino-Antineutrino particles and the electron can form a composite particle entity that can effect Cold Fusion Reactions. This puts Les Case's Deuterium-Pd-Carbon system on solid footing as a potential CF device as long as the temperature stays within the Resonance range. If Vince's H2K experiment allows some "Cold Discharge" in this range his results should get interesting also. :-) Other than that, a Thermionic Converter with D2K or D2Cs operating at around 1000 Kelvin might make a good CF Power Generator. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 18 15:09:26 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA12206; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:07:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:07:44 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990418180518.006a93e0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:05:18 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: List of CF control parameters Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Kgpti2.0.e-2.mUb6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26987 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Norman Horwood writes: So why not let Scott bung his apparatus at Case and see what happens? I am not in a position to "let" Scott Little do anything; I have no influence over Case. Scott asked me for a recommendation and I declined to give it, because I have doubts about his abilities, knowledge of the field, and objectivity. He asked for a recommendation, I said no. Let us not make a Federal Case out of this, as Clinton said to Starr. Anyway, I do not think he could do a credible job in three days even if Case welcomed him with open arms. If Little is interested in pursuing this, he should start by making a more serious attempt to replicate the Case experiment on his own, by conferring with Case, SRI, and people who know a lot about gas phase catalysis. They will tell him, for example, to bake his reactor vessel at high temperatures for a week in a vacuum before he starts. Nick Palmer writes: As I understand it, the Case cell is seen as a relatively robust device that could be shipped around the country and would reliably produce the excess heat/temperature signal quickly using off-the-shelf catalyst, just by passing D2 through it at a certain temperature. I don't think so! Case never said that. In his lectures he describes working for many months in Eastern Europe and elsewhere to set up the experiment. He says it took him years to master the techniques. SRI has been at it for months, with good results, but it still looks difficult to me. People who use these catalysts for large scale conventional industrial applications say they are finicky and require expert handling. I do not know the details. There was no extreme procedure to be followed in order to get adequate loading of the catalyst - grain size, and all the other "materials" specifications, are already taken care of because the cell uses a commercially manufactured product. Maybe, but there are lots of other ways to screw up the experiment or contaminate the materials. Now it seems likely that it is necessary to have extreme control over cell geometry/insulation/heat flow/catalyst dimensions etc in order to create a SELF SUSTAINING cell, but not just to demonstrate the basic signal. Well I do not know much about this. I am speculating about heat flow, based on comments by Russ George and on problems seen with other CF systems. Geometry is critical because the catalyst is destroyed by a temperature build-up. (Exactly the same problem occurs in conventional applications.) Case has been trying to make a self sustaining cell for several months, and he has encountered one problem after another, so evidently it is tough. Anyway, some first-rate labs in California are doing replications, so if the thing works, we will know soon enough. It took a couple of years after bulk Pd CF was announced for definitive replications to be published. We have to expect the same time-scale with this version. You can't do good science quickly. It appears as if Case has tried at least several different configurations of Dewars and insulation to move towards a self-sustainer and it looks to me as if this jiggery-pokery hasn't completely rendered the excess heat/temperature signal unobtainable . . . As I understand it, he has been delayed by conventional problems have been with leaks in the Dewars, contamination, difficulty calibrating, and so on. He has not even had a chance to do hot run as far as I know. We do not know if the temperature signal is obtainable or not with the larger vessel. Scott does not need 50 years experience in materials science (commercially available materials) and electrochemistry (no electrodes here anyway!) to do this simple discriminatory test. Stop blustering Jed! There is nothing to discriminate at this point. He has not even cranked up the test for several months. If you think it is simple, you should talk to people who deal with these materials in conventional applications. Scott shouldn't have used the term pathological science, but Jed and Gene are now flailing around in a stew of rhetoric that seems to be to be approaching almost Newman'esque proportions. If that means we are saying the experiment is difficult and we do not fully understand how to control it, we plead guilty. I should point that every CF scientist from Fleischmann to Huggins to Case has said so too. If admitting difficulties is a sign of pathology, we along with the hot fusion scientists and cancer researchers are terminally pathological. On the other hand, if you mean we are hiding something, or Case is not cooperating, then you should explain why he is helping SRI and three other labs to replicate -- successfully so far. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 18 15:45:13 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA19880; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:44:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:44:18 -0700 Message-ID: <371A5FED.CCA76386 earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 16:42:54 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Query is ( (Abtox) (INVENTOR,ASSIGNEE)) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E9BE57330C4D1E696C3400EA" Resent-Message-ID: <"Eun1Q3.0.Us4.21c6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26988 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E9BE57330C4D1E696C3400EA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.patents.ibm.com/cgi-bin/patsearch --------------E9BE57330C4D1E696C3400EA Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="patsearch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="patsearch" Content-Base: "http://www.patents.ibm.com/cgi-bin/pat search" No search terms supplied
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--------------E9BE57330C4D1E696C3400EA-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 18 16:10:07 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA25956; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 16:08:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 16:08:54 -0700 Message-ID: <371A65B3.5F545F6C earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:07:31 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Abtox Corp Plasma Sterilzer Patents Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"iAzt1.0.UL6.6Oc6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26989 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Sorry about the inability to send the IBM patent page on Abtox's plasma sterilizer patents. I'm still trying to get used to this software. :-( See US 5,115,166 and later patents. These are low temperature (63 deg C) at 0.1 to 10.0 Torr plasmas used for medical apparatus etc. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 18 17:53:00 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA20872; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:52:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:52:22 -0700 Message-ID: <19990419005322.22765.rocketmail web110.yahoomail.com> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:53:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: H2K: Joule heating (Variac Vernier) To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"1Tg8-2.0.265.5vd6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26990 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince Variac and other brand adjustable autotransformers are inherently NOT vernier devices. They have between 100 and 200 turns and a sliding contact. The contact cannot select the voltage any more finely than the volt-per-turn of that particular unit. Anyway, the exact voltage you use in your experiment is not very important. What IS important is to measure POWERS (electrical and thermal) accurately. BTW: I've been meaning to remind you that your vacuum gauge measures the pressure below your local atmosphere. It does not measure absolute pressure. Your vacuum reading depends on the local atmospheric barometric pressure If your pump is good enough to get to an absolute pressure somewhat below one torr consistently, (good mechanical pumps go well below 1 torr if there are no leaks or sources of high vapor pressure, but I don't remember what kind of pump you have) then you can adopt the following procedure. Pump the system down until you are sure the pressure is very low. Then note the reading of your vacuum gauge. This reading now is approximately zero absolute pressure, until the barometer changes. You can call it your temporary zero-pressure point. Then you can calculate absolute pressure of gas fillings in your experiment by the number of torr above your temporary zero. This proceedure will allow you to go back and reproduce conditions from day to day, regardless of barometric changes. === Michael J. Schaffer _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 18 18:04:04 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA24061; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:03:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:03:11 -0700 Message-ID: <19990419010417.24521.rocketmail web110.yahoomail.com> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:04:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: H2K - Wattmeter To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"J8oA33.0.tt5.E3e6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26991 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram aol.com wrote: Possible problems with this test.[snip] > The joule heater in the tube is a 30 turn coil of nichrome > wire approx. 1/8 in dia to fit inside the quartz tube and has > a cold resistance of 1.0 ohm. I worry that it's inductance may > skew V*I readings but we shall see. Inductance at 60 Hz is a negligible in typical wirewound resistors. Anyway, if the inductance were having an effect, it would increase the volt reading relative to the amp reading and give you a V x I larger than the true power. You are observing the opposite deviation. === Michael J. Schaffer _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 18 18:44:44 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA02706; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:43:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:43:59 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990418214009.00688f84 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 21:40:09 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Scott should go to SRI Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"FGG0Q.0.8g.Vfe6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26992 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I reviewed this thread, which has been going in circles unproductively, and something struck me. It seems to me that Scott Little and Les Case do not get along, whereas Scott has a cordial relationship with Fran Tanzella. If Scott wants to test a Case cell in his calorimeter for a couple of days, it would make more sense for him to go to SRI. They have at least three cells set up there, as shown in our video. I do not know which cells are active or what tests are underway. I expect that cells attached to the on-line helium detector cannot be moved or disturbed, but maybe the other one(s) are available. Tanzella may not be impressed with a plan to put a flow calorimeter around a static calorimeter to get a meaningful answer in 3 days. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 18 19:16:39 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA09972; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 19:15:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 19:15:13 -0700 Message-ID: <19990419021712.28154.rocketmail web122.yahoomail.com> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 19:17:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Subject: Re: H2K- Joule Heater / Wattmeter. To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"X9C_q1.0.kR2.n6f6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26993 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Addendum to my previous email on plotting data: Also, do not forget...your first data point is 0 watt and a temperature, presumeably room temperature. === Michael J. Schaffer _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 18 22:19:22 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA15688; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:18:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:18:42 -0700 Message-ID: <371ABC59.2D4B4C86 erols.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 01:17:14 -0400 From: Andrew Meulenberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: Joule heating (Variac Vernier) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vGIhV.0.zq3.ooh6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26994 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince: If I am not mistaken (I haven't looked lately), a variac has inherently poor resolution for a very good reason. A contact bar moves across the (large) coils of an auto-transformer. This bar normally contacts several coils, with corresponding contact resistance problems and the limitations of contacting one coil and then the next (maybe) as you try to adjust it. It is better to set the variac on a stable setting near your goal and then use another method to "fine tune" the output. This could be done on the output or the input sides with a rheostat to provide a voltage drop. Look at your variac. Most of them have 5 connection points. If you connect the input across the outer points, this will give you the highest output voltage. However, if you were to place a rheostat across two adjacent end connectors you would be shunting the current thru only a portion of the coil (~ 10-15%) and thereby provide your fine control by shunting across 10 - 20 volts rather than 120V. Use of the output or input sides both have pros and cons depending upon voltage range, control, and safety requirements. There are many games that you can play with fixed resistors in parallel or series with your rheostat to increase your control and/or power-handling capability if you don't have a sufficiently large (or sensitive) rheostat handy. Total cost is on the order of $2-5, if you don't have junk parts available to work with (e.g., an old tv set). I wish that you guys were closer (I get around the DC, PA, NJ, and occasionally Boston areas). When I left COMSAT Labs, 4 years ago, I "bought" my Solar/Optical lab. I have a 10x14 foot storage room packed with UH vacuum, arc-lamp, and optical test equipment that I have not been able to put to use. I would love to see it used for this purpose. Best of Luck, Drew M. PS - Let me know if I have been too cryptic and you need better instructions. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 18 22:37:38 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA21592; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:36:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:36:40 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 01:35:51 EDT Subject: H2K: H2 no K Glow Discharge To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: Verdian aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"cmOmY.0.IH5.d3i6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26995 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, I ran a test today (Sunday) of a glow discharge in H2. No K in tube. Want to see temperature output vs power in. Please note that the input watts is actual wattmeter reading and not accounting for any of the copper or hysteresis losses in the transformer I ran the test over a 22 minute span taking readings every two minutes, recording temperature and watts. Had steady temperature rise for the first 14 minutes from 291.5 increasing to 298.1. Watts input over this time increased from 38.57 to 39.08 at the 12 minute mark and then decreased to 39.07 at 14 minutes. At the 14 minute mark the wattage began increasing from 39.07 to 41.20, and the temperature rose over the same two minute period from 298.1 to 303.7. At the 18 minute mark the watts input suddenly increased 41.20 to 46.75 in two minutes (at the 20 minute time mark) and the temperature FELL from 303.7 down to 297.6 (at 20 minute mark) continuing down to 296.1 at 22 minutes. The sudden rise in input watts slowed its rapid rise, increasing from 46.75 to 47.11 at the 22 minute mark. What does all this mean...? Good question.. The system seemed to hit a "sweet spot" at ~39 watts input when the temperature (and wattage) began a sudden rise at the 14 minute mark. I think if I observe this again I will try to keep the power input =<39 watts when I see an unexplained rise in the power drawn by the transformer because I see from this run that as soon as power input got to 41.2 watts, the temperature began to fall. Weird! And this, only a plain vanilla H2 run. Maybe it's something to do with all that W being deposited on the tube walls. I'll make up a new tube tomorrow and try it again this time with a nice analog ammeter in the primary circuit (not to read amps but just as a visual indicator of current to the transformer. When I see it start to increase, I will back off on the variac to keep constant current to the transformer because up until the 14 minute mark, watts were steady (even decreasing a little) while the temperature was continuing it's slow rise. What I'm looking for here with these no K runs is find the best operating point for the tube in a glow discharge mode. Running with an arc is impressive but at the suggestion of several members of this group want to try something easier to control and less destructive of tube components. (an arc wipes out the W electrodes as they glow at white heat and the H2 eats them) I plotted a neat chart with lotus and converted it to a JPG file so if anyone want's to peruse it I will take all requests and upload it to you. It's about 26 Kbytes. For all, here is the raw data from the run. ================================= Minutes-------Deg C +/-0.1------Watts 02----------------291.5----------------38.572 04----------------293.2----------------38.618 06----------------294.7----------------38.676 08----------------295.5----------------38.768 10----------------296.5----------------39.028 12----------------297.6----------------39.087 14----------------298.1----------------39.070 16----------------302.1----------------40.071 18----------------303.7----------------41.208 20----------------297.6----------------46.759 22----------------296.1----------------47.114 That's it gentlemen. BTW, this run was a true "glow Discharge" in that I observed a violet glow that completely filled the interior of the tube in the one inch space between the two W electrodes. I ran this at an H2 Fill of 26.5 in Hg on my vacuum gauge ( or 25.4 torr allowing for my 3000 ft altitude and best vacuum of 27.5 in Hg on the gauge). Hmm,I think I got that right... Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 18 22:48:22 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA23355; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:47:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:47:39 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <6d342849.244c1d4d aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 01:46:53 EDT Subject: H2K: H2 no K Glow discharge To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Lv6M93.0.ri5.wDi6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26996 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, I converted that JPG file (56K) of the Lotus chart of Sundays run to a GIF file (26K). Saves a little bandwidth. If anyone wants, lemmy know. Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 18 23:37:57 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA29548; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:37:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:37:25 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <84bbce41.244c28f9 aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 02:36:41 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: Joule heating (Variac Vernier) To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"KM0-W1.0.VD7.ayi6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26998 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/18/1999 17:52:52 Pacific Daylight Time, schaffermj yahoo.com writes: > Vince > > Variac and other brand adjustable autotransformers are inherently NOT > vernier devices. Right. Was going nuts tweaking this thing. Fred Sparber provided a way (two Variacs in series) but as you say, not necessary. > What IS important is to measure POWERS (electrical and thermal) accurately. Being very careful here trying to get it right. > BTW: > I've been meaning to remind you that your vacuum gauge measures the > pressure below your local atmosphere... You did last year Mike...sorry I forgot... :( > If your pump is good enough to get to an absolute pressure somewhat below > one torr consistently, Specs out at 25 Microns. Whats that in Torr? Is there a conversion factor? > but I don't remember what kind of pump you have) A Dayton 4Z577 > then you can adopt the following procedure..... > === > Michael J. Schaffer > Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 18 23:37:58 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA29527; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:37:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:37:24 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <400fed4d.244c28fa aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 02:36:42 EDT Subject: Re: Subject: Re: H2K- Joule Heater / Wattmeter. To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"-3ki63.0.DD7.Zyi6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26997 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/18/1999 19:15:47 Pacific Daylight Time, schaffermj yahoo.com writes: > Also, do not forget...your first data point is 0 watt and a temperature, > presumeably room temperature. > Michael J. Schaffer Yep, of course you are correct. Thanks, I will write them up per the proper way to. Sorry, todays post got out before I read this one. Mea maxima culpa! Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 19 03:55:48 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA20284; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 03:55:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 03:55:08 -0700 Message-ID: <371B0B35.7222E106 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 04:53:42 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Abtox Corp; Plasma Water Vapor Sterilizer Apparatus Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WiVoL3.0.ry4.Bkm6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/26999 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex This is neat. www.patents.ibm.com US 5,603,895 and US 5,753,196 use a water vapor plasma at 0.1 to 40 Torr and 35 C to 82 C. Be interesting to see what D2O with a bit of Potassium (KOH or K2CO3)would do in this type of setup. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 19 04:36:18 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA26970; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 04:35:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 04:35:44 -0700 Message-ID: <371B1479.753CA44 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 05:33:13 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Microwave H2O/D2O-K Plasma Generator Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EX7WD1.0.Kb6.GKn6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27000 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here you go Vince. Put a mix (2 Cm^3) of D2O or H2O and K2CO3 or KOH in a Pryrex glass tube (~150 Cm^3) and evacuate it to 20 Torr at 27 C. Put a cork in it, then Nuke It BRIEFLY in a microwave oven. Check for Neutrons,Tritium, and He4. Then get Scott to do the Calorimetry. :-) WITH SAFETY DISCLAIMER! Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 19 08:01:19 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA04319; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:00:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:00:04 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <332faf8f.244c9e84 aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:58:12 EDT Subject: H2K: pressure units To: vortex-L eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Reply-To: Tstolper aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"ZvFnK2.0.P31.qJq6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27001 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince, How about using the international unit for pressure, the pascal? (When I was in college, I heard about atmospheres, inches of mercury, bars and torrs. The SI unit, the pascal, wasn't mentioned as far as I can recall, but it seems to be the world standard now.) Has anyone got the conversion factors from inches of mercury to pascals and vice versa? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 19 11:26:20 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA19290; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:24:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:24:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:24:52 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter Reply-To: Cornwall RO To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Thermoelectric convertors Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"YPpSD3.0.Gj4.wJt6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27002 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello All, I'm forming a small report about a thermodynamic cycle using the magneto-calorific effect where I can demostrate the necessary discontinuity of flux as my discussions with George Holz euclidated as necessary. I will post it later on today or tomorrow. My first question is how do I subscribe to frenrg, is it frenrg-l-request, subscribe. The report will probably interest George Holtz, John Schnurer, John Steck because they were really helpful last time around. If the fundamental concept is sound, then really cheap, easy to make devices will be possible. If its too big to send by email, I may set up a web-page. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 19 15:07:07 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA05173; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <371BA7B5.D34BF7C5 erie.net> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:01:26 -0400 From: Norm Biss X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, FE-OU-FraudVictims@onelist.com Subject: (Fwd.) Joe Newman's Response to Norm Biss Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------CCD1C6551B4F6F12BB889B3E" Resent-Message-ID: <"a-fwV3.0.lG1.ZVw6t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27003 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------CCD1C6551B4F6F12BB889B3E Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------CBED9F491B1EF0D38BBB5DA9" --------------CBED9F491B1EF0D38BBB5DA9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear List Members, I received this response from Joe Newman, Re: my post of last Thursday. I would be interested in any comments. Thank You. Respectfully, Norm Biss Erie, Pa. 4-19-99 normpems erie.net --------------CBED9F491B1EF0D38BBB5DA9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear List Members,

I received this response from Joe Newman, Re: my post of last Thursday.
I would be interested in any comments.

Thank You.

Respectfully,

Norm Biss
Erie, Pa.
4-19-99

normpems erie.net --------------CBED9F491B1EF0D38BBB5DA9-- --------------CCD1C6551B4F6F12BB889B3E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from onelist.com (pop.onelist.com [209.207.164.213]) by moose.erie.net (8.9.2/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA05995 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:26:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 14425 invoked by alias); 19 Apr 1999 20:51:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 14367 invoked from network); 19 Apr 1999 20:51:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com) (206.214.98.14) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 1999 20:51:56 -0000 Received: (from smap localhost) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA13962; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:26:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gra-mi10-15.ix.netcom.com(207.220.133.143) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma013810; Mon Apr 19 16:24:59 1999 Message-ID: <371B9EA0.2EA2A310 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:22:40 -0400 From: DreamPackers Organization: DreamPackers X-Sender: "DreamPackers" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en]C-gatewaynet (Win98; I) To: eric voicenet.com CC: free_energy onelist.com References: <371AB52C.3E9FAAF0 voicenet.com> Mailing-List: list free_energy onelist.com; contact free_energy-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list free_energy onelist.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [free_energy] Re: free energy X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 From: DreamPackers Here's a response to the list from Mr. Newman regarding Biss & ASSc. The following has been posted to the internet by inventor Joseph Newman: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN 11445 East Via Linda, Suite 2416 Scottsdale, Arizona 85259 (602) 657-3722 josephnewman earthlink.net www.josephnewman.com REPLY OF JOSEPH NEWMAN TO THE LYING, PANICKING NORM BISS AND HIS EMPLOYER, JOE PUGLIESE: It has been said that "lies can race around the world while the truth is still lacing up its bootstraps." This is certainly true in this instance. It should be obvious that Biss, Pugliese and others such as themselves are now panicking because they now know that they are going to be exposed as the liars, cowards, and scum that they are. I urge those sincere individuals who would like to obtain additional proof of the operability of my technology to obtain a copy of the recently-produced 90-minute VHS tape featuring my newest Motor/Generator design. This can be obtained by contacting my office at the above address and telephone number. Remember, not long ago Norm Biss and his employer, Joe Pugliese, were claiming -- in no uncertain terms -- that my Energy Machine did NOT work. Now, all of a sudden, Mr. Biss is stating that my technology HAS MERIT, but that it costs too much to construct relative to its sales price. FACT: Obtain the 90-minute VHS tape and you will see for yourself the extent to which such individuals as Mr. Biss and Mr. Pugliese are "lying scum." If my accusations appear harsh, it is because I have invested many years in innovating the Theory and Technical Process which has led to the creation of a revolutionary, energy technology for humanity --- I take my life's work seriously, despite the inaccurate and erroneous claims of Mr. Biss to the contrary. Mr. Biss and his ilk would have you believe that I am a "con" and/or "scam artist". It is they who are the true "con AND scam artists" because they are deliberately misleading and misinforming you about the nature of my life's work. Over the years I have raised many thousands of dollars from those who have invested in my life's work. I have never wavered in my commitment to them, and to all of humanity, to bring forth this technology. And at one point and in a short space of time, for instance, I acquired over $500,000 from those who have invested in my work. My only obligation to these investors was that they would receive an interest in future income generated by the production of the technology. Had I been as unscrupulous as Mr. Biss would have you believe, I could have easily taken these funds which were totally under my control, and "disappeared." I could also have done so "legally," but not ethically or morally. Instead I chose to invest EVERY SINGLE PENNY (and much more) in my long battle to obtain a patent for my life's work. And I will continue to fight for my rights --- both for the benefit of myself, my investors, humanity, and for those innovators yet unborn --- until the day I draw my last breath. Over the years, my legal costs exceeded many hundreds of thousands of dollars. The Founding Fathers of our country created the U.S. Patent Office for the protection and nourishment of innovation. I want nothing more nor nothing less than the patent protection to which I am entitled under the Constitution of our country. Ironically, many thousands of your tax dollars have been spent by patent office bureaucrats FIGHTING this technology, while the issuance of a patent for my technology would not have cost the American taxpayer A SINGLE PENNY! Yet patent office bureaucrats have rigorously and continuously fought against my life's work. Eleven different Congressman (Democrats and Republicans) introduced eleven different Congressional Bills seeking the issuance of a Congressional Patent on my behalf. These Congressmen had taken the time to honestly and sincerely look at the record of treatment I have suffered, and they concluded that, indeed, I have received massive injustice. All of this legislation was blocked in Congress by one entrenched Congressman who refused to even hold hearings on the Bills because he specifically stated that the President of the United States opposed such legislation on my behalf. Ask yourself this: Since when does a Democratic Congressman care what a Republican President thinks about proposed legislation? Since when does the Executive Branch of government dictate the actions of the Legislative Branch of government? [The documentation of this was broadcast on the A & E Network which featured a Special about my life's work.] I will continue to fight for my patent rights as long as it takes. Fact: By the evidence of his own words, Norm Biss has now changed his position about my technology. Earlier he was trying to claim why it does not work and now he states that my technology has "MERIT". This is further proof that he and others like him are liars who deliberately distort the truth. Fact: Likewise, now Mr. Biss deliberately attempts to take my religious beliefs totally out-of-context regarding the essence of what I originally wrote in a lengthy Press Booklet which I mailed to the newsmedia, to major embassies, and to people throughout the world. Fact: It has been repeatedly demonstrated that when evil people, politicians, and individuals such as Norm Biss cannot prove a truth incorrect by the presentation of honest facts, that they then revert to a deliberate and distorted attack upon the truth of the individual's religion, race, or national origin. Fact: Other than a speeding ticket, I have NEVER been charged or convicted of ANY violation of ANY law for ANYTHING at ANY TIME! And anyone who says or implies otherwise is a deliberate LIAR. Twelve years ago and in the "eyes of God" I publicly announced --- through a Press Booklet mailed across the country to over 300 members of the newsmedia as well as the major embassies of the world --- that God wanted Christians to love Islamic people and all other five major religions, and vice-versa. Fact: At that time I was receiving extensive worldwide publicity regarding my Energy Machine technology. I had recently appeared on all major national news networks, LIFE magazine, the Tonight Show, and in hundreds of newspapers and radio talk shows throughout the world. Just as God has spoken to many people throughout the centuries with His miracles, God mentally spoke to me and told me to warn the world of forthcoming major conflicts which could launch World War III! Fact: During that time I was living in Southern Mississippi --- the heart of the "stiff-necked Bible Belt". I was raised in this environment and I well know from personal observation that people in this region have great bigotry against anyone who they perceive as different from them. Black people especially know the truth of this. Fact: Honest people who read my lengthy Press Release Booklet caringly told me that my comments "describing what God asked me to do to warn the HUMAN RACE, reminded them of Abraham." Fact: I knew then that I would be "attacked, castigated, and ridiculed" by individuals living in the "stiff-necked Bible Belt" in which I was raised. Fact: Both the newsmedia, loved ones, and so-called friends turned away from me and my life's work of the Energy Machine invention. As a result of my love of humanity and my service to God, I was literally in a "prison of loneliness" which I describe in my book. Fact: Why did I do this? Answer: Because I symbolically and bravely SCREAMED out that Christians and Islamic people should love one another. (And so to for the people of the other five major religions of the world.) Fact: The Editor of the George County Times in Lucedale (the town in which I lived at the time) even wrote an Editorial saying, "People should listen to Joseph Newman because I was saying the same things taught by Jesus Christ." Fact: People in Lucedale, Mississippi never confronted me in relation to my published statements but were generally quiet and polite to me and they went out of their way to say "Hello" to me whenever I went anywhere in town. These people respected me for the GUTS I displayed in continuously holding steadfast to my warnings about how God would punish us if we failed to truly respect one another's religious beliefs and love one another rather than engage in war and destruction. Fact: At the very moment that I write this, Christians and Islamic people are KILLING EACH OTHER in Yugoslavia. American men and women are now becoming involved in increasing numbers. If you watch any of the major news broadcasts regarding this escalating conflict, you will see that warnings against such destruction were issued at Fatima, at Lourdes, at Medjugorie, by Nostradamus, and in Chapter 10 from the book of Isaiah. Fact: We are on the threshold of World War III! This has been triggered by the religious hatred of both Christians and Islamic people! This hatred was exactly what God asked me to warn the entire world about over 12 years ago. Fact: Norm Biss --- the lying, scum coward that he is --- attempts to put forth a deliberate distortion of this Truth. By his actions which deliberately mislead and distort the message that I published over 12 years ago, Norm Biss, in effect, condones the action of the Yugoslavian dictator, and like him he is guilty of the same evil "mind-set" against Islamic People. Fact: God will DAMN and visit Norm Biss and those like him! Watch and see for yourself! Fact: My recent Press Release described the fact that the odds were more than 105 million to 1 against it being an "accidental occurrence" that the seven major religions should all have a single unifying timeline (the number "14"). Such mathematical odds demonstrate to me the proof that God ordains and demands that all seven major religions love one another. Having at one time been an atheist, the very repetitive occurrence of the number "14" (which I have extensively documented elsewhere) appears more than a simple "coincidence" and proved to me that God was real. Accordingly, I included a Chapter entitled "Recommended Proof of God's Existence" in the first Edition of my fundamental book, originally published in 1984. Fact: I have never made ANY apologies for my service to God and Humanity. This Truth is well documented in every edition of my book THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN, including the recent 8th Edition. Mr. Norm Biss, his employer Joe Pugliese, Mr. Pugliese's company, and others are going to be sued for their malicious and lying statements they have made about me and my life's work. The recent comments by Mr. Biss are indicative of his panic and adds additional evidence of his deliberate violation of our Contract. With respect to the INITIATED statements against myself over the past months --- remember the essence of the old proverb: "I THINK THEY ACCUSE TOO MUCH." GUILTY people always do this! Mr. Biss also described my "Theory" as "unproven". He specifically used these two words. This demonstrates that Mr. Biss does not understand the Scientific Method which, in his case, is not surprising. A Theory is a PROVEN, corroborated Hypothesis. If he correctly understood the Scientific Method, then he would have stated his (mistaken) belief that Joseph Newman's "Hypothesis" is "unproven". The fact is, however, that I have fundamentally and mechanically explained numerous phenomena in science for which there were previously no such explanation. I have achieved this through my Theory of the Gyroscopic Particle and the successful operation of my Energy Machine invention. Similarly, Mr. Biss's comments about "UL Testing" as it relates to my technology are inaccurate and misleading. I have explained this in detail to those individuals who have personally contacted me in Scottsdale, Arizona. In fact, my personal telephone number and mailing address are well publicized - something which Mr. Biss has refused to provide. Of course, if I published inaccurate, misleading, and lying statements as Mr. Biss, then I too would seek anonymity. At this time I am busy working to bring forth my life's work and I do not have the time to continuously respond to the inaccuracies, misleading statements, and lies posted by Mr. Biss and his ilk. To the honest and sincere people --- if you have any doubt who is the REAL liar, obtain a copy of my 90-minute VHS tape. I produced it to enable even the layperson to understand the validity of my work and know that it is indeed operable and verifies my Theory and Technical Process. The response of those who have viewed the tape has been one of great excitement and a sincere desire to help bring forth this technology. Equipped with the information on the videotape, others can enable me to concentrate on production by responding to those individuals who post lies and inaccurate comments about the technology and my dedicated service to God and Humanity. FACT: As a young man in September 1962 I launched a Plastic Covered Barbell Company. [The plastic-covered barbell is my invention and it involved not only the innovation of the concept but also of the machinery necessary to effect the process.] As you may know, this product is now sold worldwide. In 1962 I told people with whom I was associated that I would make delivery of the finished products by December of that year in time for Christmas. Everyone at the time said I could not possibly produce the product so fast. FACT: By Christmas of that year I had already made delivery of the product to major retail stores across the country and was myself continuing to give demonstrations to the general public. The forthcoming production of my Energy Machine technology is also my goal. If I secure a sufficient number of advance deposits to enable me to order the raw materials and assemble the production facility, then the first units will be produced by the end of June. If it takes longer than this to secure sufficient advance deposits, then those who have paid their advance deposits will have the choice of having their deposits refunded to them after June 30, 1999 or waiting for the duration of a mutually-agreed upon timeline for completion of the Newman Motor/Generators. In conclusion, I would like to add that my book contains many testimonials from individuals who have known me for many decades and who recognize my sincerity, my honesty, and my integrity. [Signed] Joseph Westley Newman P.S. Prior to becoming the appointed Commissioner of the Patent Office and using the taxpayer's money to vigorously oppose my efforts to obtain a patent (which would be at NO cost to the American taxpayer), Mr. Donald Quigg was a top executive with Philips Petroleum for several decades. The same groups of "old boy networks" who have opposed my technology have now succeeded in raising the basic price of gasoline sold to you by more than 25% in the past two weeks. I respect those who have the courage and sincerity to come forth and speak out on behalf of a technology that would render oil obsolete as a fuel source. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Looking for the perfect gift for a friend? http://www.ONElist.com Tell them about ONElist's 115,000 free e-mail communities! --------------CCD1C6551B4F6F12BB889B3E-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 19 15:32:21 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA26547; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:28:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:28:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: euston.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:28:37 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi euston To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Thermoelectric convertors Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-559023410-851401618-924560917=:7619" Resent-Message-ID: <"Lg_3T.0.FU6.Vuw6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27004 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. ---559023410-851401618-924560917=:7619 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII All, A document with the thermodynamic cycle. Word 97 format, zipped with pkzip. Jist of it is that in portion 2 to 3 of cycle, the spontaneous magnetisation of the ferromagnetic material falls to zero as temperature rises, power coil picks up this change in flux. The excitor coils (the tuned circuits) see zero net flux change and so do zero electricl work. Informed comments most appreciated, 'Arguments' along the lines 'You can't break such and such law, because I say so, or big-tree said so' will get you nowhere. 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AOAjDI1PAEcBnwFOYmi8jeHwLuA98V97fgD4CFCQQyO1jwFYdOXIT/gZmsB7 ZRcNt4ajF39OO3RQAZ/DEQmMZz9ic/mhLdGHYQXwyUJWg5oqrnQUjXbEi5fZ UXbjeRU4GnClQ8RK8BnhaKpUViqcT4Lt6+oZeToqMxGF8bkrR3d6xiLyPpWa S5vRbQOEbDKlmlMsKSazxcwikyKuC9EB6myAn5zmYstxPZ+fKGnn53SNBh4T S0lRTEpaqiklTTTL0aFayfj5sQ1oUyXO/ywfwqlnplpMlOJSnwRxuMXJPAOh iius6+A/9kG2NfyRd7dUDNlxV8UQ7fiEAeLMKTpvSuGO2MLMOb0i8Co67D80 RZFNplak+1J3pj3BnoB6y0qjTp3Jbj92kzjZJk/Uu7dymEh9l3BIpv9fUwec f9vq8x8p5Gk9pfiptfQ7On2f6fudU30OPh3R+XAl8ny4knGtOoM1mb6v6X8B UEsBAhQAFAAAAAgAQLeTJqJDz713IgAAAK4AAAwAAAAAAAAAAAAgAAAAAAAA AFRIRVRIRX4xLkRPQ1BLBQYAAAAAAQABADoAAAChIgAAAAA= ---559023410-851401618-924560917=:7619-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 19 16:26:28 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA17922; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:24:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:24:50 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:37:26 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Bill Beaty's response to Norm Biss is what we really need Resent-Message-ID: <"G4qFs.0.yN4.2jx6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27005 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:01 PM 4/19/99, Norm Biss wrote: >Dear List Members, > >I received this response from Joe Newman, Re: my post of >last Thursday. >I would be interested in any comments. > >Thank You. > >Respectfully, > >Norm Biss >Erie, Pa. >4-19-99 The first comment that comes to mind is the irony of your choice for a signature block. By such egregious violations of the vortex rules, despite repeated recent requests for these violations to cease, you show anything but *respect* to the list. You violate the rules and spirit of the list in at least 3 ways simultaneously: 1. Posting to multiple lists simultaneously 2. Discussion of Joe Newman (which should be on vortex-B, not vortex-l) 3. Dragging what is clearly a heated private argument ONTO the list (as opposed to the rules which specify that you should take aruments of such a nature OFF the list) This is especially egregious in that the origin of the arument was not even from dicussion on this list. In addition, you contribute no discussion of any experimental or even thoretical interest. All noise, no signal. If you are not already, please get familiar with the rules of the vortex-l list. We have discussed Joe Newman and his alleged foibles ad nausium on this list. That is why Bill Beaty banned this kind of discussion to the vortex-B list, where anything goes. If you have any new experimental data, etc., that would undoubtedly be welcomed on vortex-l by some. Please excuse me if I am a bit grouchy today. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 19 16:28:39 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA19460; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:27:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:27:24 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:24:57 -1000 Subject: Re: (Fwd.) Joe Newman's Response to Norm Biss From: "Rick Monteverde" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <199904191943.SM00200 [206.127.240.158]> Resent-Message-ID: <"Qng5u1.0.-l4.Slx6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27006 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Joe Newman is absolutely 100% correct. Hatred between Christians and Moslems is involved in the fighting in Yugoslavia, and could lead to world war. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 19 17:53:20 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA21611; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:51:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:51:56 -0700 Message-ID: <371BCF91.D224F7F1 erie.net> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:51:29 -0400 From: Norm Biss X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bill Beaty's response to Norm Biss is what we really need References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------59520BB0189F479D6CF28151" Resent-Message-ID: <"WEp9X.0.bH5.i-y6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27007 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --------------59520BB0189F479D6CF28151 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Norm Biss replies to Horace Heffner's comments: Dear Horace, You have brought up several points of which I was not aware. I have only been on this list for a short time. I am (NOW) aware of the rule about cross-posting. I should have read the rules more closely. Since I have been on the list such a short time, I was not aware that the subject of Joe Newman had been discussed "ad nausium". Nor was I aware that there was a list called "Vortex-B". I do have to disagree with you on one point. You wrote: "This is especially egregious in that the origin of the arument was not even from the dicussion on this list". I would like to clear up this point. On Thursday, 15 April, 1999, a post was made by Jed Rothwell, in which he commented on a post sent by Mitchell Jones. In this post, both Mitchell Jones and Jed Rothwell discussed the Newman Motor cost. They both inferred that it was a risky proposition to invest in it. My post went into a little more detail as to why it was a risky investment. At the time I was ready to release the information, I got a post from an individual on another list. Since the two posts "dove-tailed", I made a reply to all the lists. For this, I apologize. I was not aware that the members of this list had been alerted to this bad investment. I only wanted to prevent the list members from all the lists, from a bad investment. This was bad judgement on my part. Please believe me when I say that if I had seen a chastising post directed toward Mitchell Jones, or Jed Rothwell, for bringing up the Newman Motor, I would not have sent a post that amplified the subject of their posts. The fact that you, and possibly several others on the list, are upset with me,troubles me, because it was not my intent to cause anybody to become agitated. In the future, I will not bring up the subject again, unless asked to do so by the List Administrator. And again, I apologize for my crassness. Respectfully, Norm Biss Erie, Pa. 4-19-99 normpems erie.net Horace Heffner wrote: > At 6:01 PM 4/19/99, Norm Biss wrote: > >Dear List Members, > > > >I received this response from Joe Newman, Re: my post of > >last Thursday. > >I would be interested in any comments. > > > >Thank You. > > > >Respectfully, > > > >Norm Biss > >Erie, Pa. > >4-19-99 > > The first comment that comes to mind is the irony of your choice for a > signature block. By such egregious violations of the vortex rules, despite > repeated recent requests for these violations to cease, you show anything > but *respect* to the list. You violate the rules and spirit of the list in > at least 3 ways simultaneously: > > 1. Posting to multiple lists simultaneously > > 2. Discussion of Joe Newman (which should be on vortex-B, not vortex-l) > > 3. Dragging what is clearly a heated private argument ONTO the list (as > opposed to the rules which specify that you should take aruments of such a > nature OFF the list) This is especially egregious in that the origin of > the arument was not even from dicussion on this list. > > In addition, you contribute no discussion of any experimental or even > thoretical interest. All noise, no signal. If you are not already, please > get familiar with the rules of the vortex-l list. We have discussed Joe > Newman and his alleged foibles ad nausium on this list. That is why Bill > Beaty banned this kind of discussion to the vortex-B list, where anything > goes. If you have any new experimental data, etc., that would undoubtedly > be welcomed on vortex-l by some. > > Please excuse me if I am a bit grouchy today. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner --------------59520BB0189F479D6CF28151 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Norm Biss replies to Horace Heffner's comments:

Dear Horace,

You have brought up several points of which I was not aware.
I have only been on this list for a short time.  I am (NOW) aware of the
rule about cross-posting.  I should have read the rules more closely.
Since I have been on the list such a short time, I was not aware that the
subject of Joe Newman had been discussed "ad nausium".  Nor was I
aware that there was a list called "Vortex-B".

I do have to disagree with you on one point.  You wrote:  "This is especially
egregious in that the origin of the arument was not even from the
dicussion on this list".

I would like to clear up this point.  On Thursday, 15 April, 1999, a post was made
by Jed Rothwell, in which he commented on a post sent by Mitchell Jones.  In this
post, both Mitchell Jones and Jed Rothwell discussed the Newman Motor cost.
They both inferred that it was a risky proposition to invest in it.  My post went into
a little more detail as to why it was a risky investment.  At the time I was ready to release
the information, I got a post from an individual on another list. Since the two posts
"dove-tailed", I made a reply to all the lists.  For this, I apologize.  I was not aware
that the members of this list had been alerted to this bad investment.  I only wanted
to prevent the list members from all the lists, from a bad investment.  This was bad
judgement on my part.

Please believe me when I say that if I had seen a chastising post directed toward
Mitchell Jones, or Jed Rothwell, for bringing up the Newman Motor, I would not
have sent a post that amplified the subject of their posts.

The fact that you, and possibly several others on the list, are upset with me,troubles
me, because it was not my intent to cause anybody to become agitated.

In the future, I will not bring up the subject again, unless asked to do so by the
List Administrator.  And again, I apologize for my crassness.

Respectfully,

Norm Biss
Erie, Pa.
4-19-99

normpems erie.net
 
 
 

Horace Heffner wrote:

At 6:01 PM 4/19/99, Norm Biss wrote:
>Dear List Members,
>
>I received this response from Joe Newman, Re: my post of
>last Thursday.
>I would be interested in any comments.
>
>Thank You.
>
>Respectfully,
>
>Norm Biss
>Erie, Pa.
>4-19-99

The first comment that comes to mind is the irony of your choice for a
signature block.  By such egregious violations of the vortex rules, despite
repeated recent requests for these violations to cease, you show anything
but *respect* to the list.  You violate the rules and spirit of the list in
at least 3 ways simultaneously:

1.  Posting to multiple lists simultaneously

2.  Discussion of Joe Newman (which should be on vortex-B, not vortex-l)

3.  Dragging what is clearly a heated private argument ONTO the list  (as
opposed to the rules which specify that you should take aruments of such a
nature OFF the list)  This is especially egregious in that the origin of
the arument was not even from dicussion on this list.

In addition, you contribute no discussion of any experimental or even
thoretical interest.  All noise, no signal.  If you are not already, please
get familiar with the rules of the vortex-l list.  We have discussed Joe
Newman and his alleged foibles ad nausium on this list.  That is why Bill
Beaty banned this kind of discussion to the vortex-B list, where anything
goes.  If you have any new experimental data, etc., that would undoubtedly
be welcomed on vortex-l by some.

Please excuse me if I am a bit grouchy today.

Regards,

Horace Heffner

--------------59520BB0189F479D6CF28151-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 19 19:51:14 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA24055; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:50:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:50:01 -0700 Message-ID: <371BEBCC.2202A585 ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:51:56 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Scott should go to SRI References: <3.0.1.32.19990418214009.00688f84 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Qgn-k.0.ht5.Oj-6t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27008 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: April 19, 1999 Jed Rothwell wrote: >They have at least three cells set up there, as shown in our video. I do not know which >cells are active or what tests are underway. I expect that cells attached to the >on-line helium detector cannot be moved or disturbed, but maybe the other one(s) are >available. A not so trivia note: All the cells at SRI (the ones in the video) and run there were built by Russ George and belongs to him with the exception of the round bomb made by Case. No, SRI did not pay for them or pay Russ George. But SRI is using them. Perhaps there is assumed to be a trade off somewhere. As I last understand it: The control and successful initial cells built by Russ George was with collaboration with Case. The resulting paper prepared to be published, after a successful run, was with Case and George together with perhaps Tanzella included because he ran the in-line spectrometer (property of EPRI). Case deferred to George, by his choice, to let him be the lead author. All this was suppressed by the SRI Directer. After unfortunate delays, the report was released by Russ George after the APS convention. These cells and extra ones are the same ones pictured in the Wired Magazine and at the Saturna website. Several others are at PNNL for testing. Some minor bugs needs to be remedied pending additional funding on those. >Tanzella may not be impressed with a plan to put a flow calorimeter around a static >calorimeter to get a meaningful answer in 3 days. SRI, EarthTech, and others around are separate venture funded private enterprises definitely NOT founded or motivated for altruistic science reasons although there may be a trace of that. Even academia efforts are not "pure". Unless some prior understandings have been made, I doubrt Scott could go there.or any university laboratory with his calorimeter, whatever professed intentions have been made by him in behalf of EarthTech, Hal Puthoff, and unknown venturists, his employer. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 20 00:24:02 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA04966; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:23:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:23:12 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <36b36ef2.244d852c aol.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 03:22:20 EDT Subject: H2K: H2 Calibration To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"MoPBa1.0.WD1.Wj27t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27009 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Two runs today (Monday) H2 in tube at the first two fill pressures. I am going to run in steps of 12.7 Torr for about 5 or 6 runs just to see how the tube behaves. Will also try to run at a fill as low as the pump will suck. ( what is 25 microns in Torr? ) I monitored an AC ammeter to try to keep the input power as steady as I could. Can't do it with the watt-hour meter as it takes about 1 minute 30 seconds for 1 revolution of the rotor at the input I'm using and if transformer draw changes, I'm already more than a minute late when I find out. Ammeter is connected as follows: line volts> o--[variac]---[ammeter]---[watthour meter]---[HV XFMR] Please note that the ammeter was cobbled up using a good analog AC voltmeter (not recommended) and a hand built shunt. I did a quick and dirty calibration of it with the Shack digital meter, but the only reason I'm using it is to get a real time look at power in. If tube characteristics change and it starts to draw more (or less) current I can make an on-the-fly adjustment to keep it steady, which can't be done with the watt-hour meter. I must say though the calibration came out pretty darn good. The thing reads from 0.5 to 3 amps full scale and is right on the money +/- .1 amps all the way across. And since the HV transformer draws around 2 amps, this put the pointer right at center scale. H2 calibration at 25.4 Torr ( 1.0 in Hg) --Time-----Deg C +/-0.1 C--------------------Watts -----00----------------30.9----------------------------0.0 -----03--------------263.5--------------------------38.359 -----06--------------269.1--------------------------38.885 -----09--------------266.3--------------------------38.990 -----12--------------258.4--------------------------38.788 -----15--------------260.1--------------------------38.843 -----18--------------261.2--------------------------39.015 -----21--------------260.9--------------------------38.843 -----24--------------261.3--------------------------38.693 -----27--------------266.8--------------------------42.578<-Incr pwr in amps to 1.6 -----30--------------267.1--------------------------43.005 -----33--------------267.1--------------------------42.969 notes: I increased input power after the 24 minute mark to see if this would have a large effect on temperature...it didn't. I ended the run shortly after. Next run: H2 calibration at H2 fill 12.7 Torr ( 0.5 in Hg.) --Time-----Deg C +/- 0.1 C--------------------Watts -----00-----------------32.3----------------------------0.0 -----03---------------210.3---------------------------37.958 -----06---------------226.6---------------------------38.163 -----09---------------238.1---------------------------43.232 -----12---------------239.7---------------------------43.155 -----15---------------241.1---------------------------43.191 -----18---------------242.4---------------------------42.811 -----21---------------243.9---------------------------43.389 -----24---------------244.9---------------------------43.368 -----27---------------246.5---------------------------43.541 -----30---------------247.1---------------------------42.709 -----33---------------247.9---------------------------43.326 -----36---------------248.9---------------------------43.473 -----39---------------249.5---------------------------43.316 -----42---------------250.5---------------------------43.710 -----45---------------250.9---------------------------43.478 -----48---------------251.1---------------------------43.436 No conclusions (at least by me) at this time. I need to run at fixed input power for several different fill pressures. As can be seen, I got the input power pretty steady in the second run. (except right at the start where the glitch may have been a mis-read of the watt-hour rotation at the 6 minute mark.) Comments most welcome. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 20 04:03:48 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA18590; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 04:03:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 04:03:04 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 02:15:41 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Norm Biss Resent-Message-ID: <"5FHl13.0.OY4.dx57t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27010 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:51 PM 4/19/99, Norm Biss wrote: > And again, I apologize for my crassness. I apologise too. I just had a bad day. Some other chronic violators lowered my threshold. (Yes, Rick, they got to me too!) I usually just try to ignore such things. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 20 08:15:09 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA22240; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:12:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:12:50 -0700 Message-ID: <371C98D0.2C1845BA earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:10:09 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: H2K: H2 Calibration Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UVQsL1.0.QR5.nb97t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27011 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Vince, Interesting data. At STP (760 Torr & 25 deg C ) there are 2.69E19 molecules or atoms of a gas per cubic centimeter. Thus N = 2.69E19 * P*To/Po*T molecules per cubic centimeter where Pressue P is in Torr and Temperature T is in Deg Kelvin. Thus at your 25.4 Torr Pressure at To = 30.9 C (303.9 deg Kelvin) at sea level pressure of 760 Torr (1.0 atm). N = 2.69E19* 25.4/760 = 8.99E17 H2 molecules/cm^3 in the tube. Then during your first run with an " average" temp of 265 C ( 538 Kelvin) since the number of molecules has to be constant, you can approximate the Pressure in Atmospheres: P2 (atm) = T2/To = 538/303.9 = 1.77 atm = 1,345 Torr at 12.7 Torr, 32.3 C (305.3 deg Kelvin initial, with an average temp of about 503 Kelvin and half as many molecules in the tube: P2 (atm) = T2/To = 503/305.3 = 1.647 atm = 1,252 Torr A real head scratcher. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 20 08:54:22 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA06531; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:52:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:52:00 -0700 Message-ID: <371CA244.5B781297 earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:50:29 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: H2K: H2 Calibration Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"iNgtx3.0.vb1.WAA7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27012 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good deal Vince, I think your data is showing Dissociation of the H2 Molecules. Perhaps one more data point at about 6 Torr if you can swing it? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 20 11:42:41 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA03753; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:40:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:40:19 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990420144006.0079b100 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:40:06 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Joe Newman's Response to Norm Biss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"pE3KC2.0.Zw.JeC7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27013 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner writes: 2. Discussion of Joe Newman (which should be on vortex-B, not vortex-l) As I understand the rules, brief discussions of his technical claims or short news items about him are acceptable here. Please excuse me if I am a bit grouchy today. I was mighty grouchy the last few days too. I was knocked out of bed at 6 a.m. Monday with the worst headache I ever had. It turned out to be a gangrene infection in a molar! It is fixed now. This sort of thing makes me VERY glad to be living in the 20th century. On another subject, Akira Kawasaki reports: A not so trivia note: All the cells at SRI (the ones in the video) and run there were built by Russ George and belongs to him with the exception of the round bomb made by Case. No, SRI did not pay for them or pay Russ George . . . Well, well! That's news to me. Obviously, I am not well informed about this work. I am glad Russ posted his paper on Internet. The helium production graph is impressive. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 20 12:09:50 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA14138; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:08:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:08:18 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:06:24 -1000 Subject: Re: Joe Newman's Response to Norm Biss From: "Rick Monteverde" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <199904201524.SM00200 [206.127.240.158]> Resent-Message-ID: <"pJUyn1.0.mS3.Y2D7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27014 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed - >This sort of thing makes me >VERY glad to be living in the 20th century. ...and it reminds me of a line on scientific progress delivered by comedian Steve Martin in an old SNL skit where he plays a medieval barber: "Why, only a few hundred years ago, we used to think that diseases was caused by evil spirits. Now we know they are caused by a toad or a small dwarf attached to the spine." - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 20 13:25:48 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA05498; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:24:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:24:30 -0700 Message-ID: <371CE1EA.A02233CC earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:22:03 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: D2 Gas PhotoVoltaic Cells as CF Converters? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hXm9s2.0.qL1.z9E7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27015 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex The type S-1 CsO,Ag, S-17 Cs2Sb, and S-20 (NaKCs)Sb Photocathodes if heated in the presence of D2 with the anode (plate) acting as a heat rejection surface and electron collector, Might serve as a means for Direct Conversion of the CF Effect similar to the Case-George devices to Electrical Power. The temperatures sound about right for operation these Photocathodes. The Phototubes (vacuum or gas filled) are available from several Vacuum Tube Manufactures. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 20 20:20:53 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA10048; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:19:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:19:09 -0700 Message-ID: <19990421031907.18668.rocketmail web108.yahoomail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:19:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: H2K: H2 Calibration To: Vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"8QKB5.0.wS2.jEK7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27016 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram aol.com wrote: >Two runs today (Monday) H2 in tube at the first two fill pressures. >I am going to run in steps of 12.7 Torr for about 5 or 6 runs just to >see how the tube behaves. Will also try to run at a fill as low as >the pump will suck. ( what is 25 microns in Torr? ) 1 torr = 1 mm Hg. 1 micron = 1 micrometer Hg = 0.001 torr. 25 micron = 25 micrometer Hg = 1 millitorr (mtorr) = 0.025 torr. However...Just because your pump says in the catalog that it reaches 25 micron doesn't mean that it will reach 25 micron in your system. It will reach 25 micron only if the pump is in mint condition, very clean (no source of vapors) and usually with just a stub carrying only a good vacuum gauge connected to the pump. Any system that has been exposed to air has walls saturated with water vapor and probably other vapors from the surroundings, too. These come out slowly. Furthermore, the vapors condense in the pump on its compression stroke and don't get exhausted. So, it takes almost forever to reach ideal base pressure, if ever. One has to use e.g. a cold trap or a getter to get down to 25 micron with a mechanical pump. Or, one has to use a different pump technology between the load and the mechanical pump. In your case, I don't think you need to go so far. Just pump for a while, say 15 min to 30 min, before starting the experiment. And don't call it "25 micron" pressure, just "base pressure." If you had a good vacuum gauge, you could measure yur base pressure, but such a gauge will set you back many 100 $ to over 1 k$. In any case, your base pressure gas is mostly vapors, not something well defined like H2. === Michael J. Schaffer _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 20 20:30:15 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA14661; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:29:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:29:22 -0700 Message-ID: <19990421032921.21398.rocketmail web108.yahoomail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:29:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: H2K: H2 Calibration To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"5FFHQ.0._a3.IOK7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27017 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >At STP (760 Torr & 25 deg C ) there are 2.69E19 molecules or atoms of a >gas per cubic centimeter. > >Thus N = 2.69E19 * P*To/Po*T molecules per cubic centimeter where >Pressue P is in Torr and Temperature T is in Deg Kelvin. > >Thus at your 25.4 Torr Pressure at To = 30.9 C (303.9 deg Kelvin) at sea >level pressure of 760 Torr (1.0 atm). > >N = 2.69E19* 25.4/760 = 8.99E17 H2 molecules/cm^3 in the tube. OK up to here. >Then during your first run with an " average" temp of 265 C ( 538 >Kelvin) since the number of molecules has to be constant, you can >approximate the Pressure in Atmospheres: > > P2 (atm) = T2/To = 538/303.9 = 1.77 atm = 1,345 Torr Error here. Frederick, you didn't write down the Po corresponding to the initial condition. Here Po = 25.4 Torr, so P2 = 45 torr. However, even this isn't right. Only the few cc in Vinces hot zone are at 538 K. Most of his system's volume is in tubing connecting it to the pump and in the pump's entrance chamber. Gas in these stays near the initial temperature. The pressure probably rises to only about 30 torr, I would guess (not knowing the volumes). === Michael J. Schaffer _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 20 22:04:37 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA04540; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:03:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:03:52 -0700 Message-ID: <371D5BD9.E23B9797 earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:02:18 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: H2 Calibration References: <19990421032921.21398.rocketmail web108.yahoomail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tEOxi.0.o61.umL7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27018 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Schaffer wrote: > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >At STP (760 Torr & 25 deg C ) there are 2.69E19 molecules or atoms of a > >gas per cubic centimeter. > > > >Thus N = 2.69E19 * P*To/Po*T molecules per cubic centimeter where > >Pressue P is in Torr and Temperature T is in Deg Kelvin. > > > >Thus at your 25.4 Torr Pressure at To = 30.9 C (303.9 deg Kelvin) at sea > >level pressure of 760 Torr (1.0 atm). > > > >N = 2.69E19* 25.4/760 = 8.99E17 H2 molecules/cm^3 in the tube. > > OK up to here. > > >Then during your first run with an " average" temp of 265 C ( 538 > >Kelvin) since the number of molecules has to be constant, you can > >approximate the Pressure in Atmospheres: > > > > P2 (atm) = T2/To = 538/303.9 = 1.77 atm = 1,345 Torr > > Error here. Frederick, you didn't write down the Po corresponding > to the initial condition. Here Po = 25.4 Torr, so P2 = 45 torr. Right you are, Michael, I was distracted. :-) > > > However, even this isn't right. Only the few cc in Vinces hot zone > are at 538 K. Most of his system's volume is in tubing connecting it to > the pump and in the pump's entrance chamber. Gas in these stays near > the initial temperature. The pressure probably rises to only about 30 > torr, I would guess (not knowing the volumes). Yes. I was assuming that the device was valved off. I hope to get better focused tomorrow, my daughter and grandchildren have been hosting a little 6 year-old girl from Central America with a heart condition that was corrected with an incredible medical procedure this afternoon. :-) A delight to hear her call our 7 year old Russian borne grandson, Josef, "Jose". :-) Regards, Frederick > === > Michael J. Schaffer > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 20 23:57:40 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA31577; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:56:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:56:11 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 02:55:17 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: H2 Calibration To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: Verdian aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"yWuVI3.0.Jj7.BQN7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27019 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, I have discovered a serious error in the data I posted Re: the two H2 calibration runs on April 19th, posted here. Recall that I was using an analog ammeter to monitor HV transformer current draw. Now here's the problem: The ammeter with it's ~5.4 ohm shunt ( which gets hot ) was incorrectly attached AFTER the watt-hour meter thereby causing the watt-hour meter to record HV transformer watts AND the power dissipated in the shunt resistors. At a 2 ampere HV transformer draw the shunt resistors run at about 100 C. +/- 2.0 C. This power is recorded by the watt-hour meter causing an inflated watt reading. I hate when that happens. :( mea culpa. I have corrected the problem for the run conducted today, April 20th by connecting the ammeter in the circuit BEFORE the watt-hour meter. Remember that I am using the ammeter only as a real time indicator of HV transformer draw so I can quickly correct an increase or decrease caused by tube characteristics, thereby keeping power input steady. The only runs affected by this goof on my part are the two runs conducted on April 19th as the ammeter was not in use before that date. Sorry for the foulup. That's what I get for being in a hurry to hang a meter in the circuit and not thinking it through first. Here are the raw data from today's run, trying to establish an accurate relationship to power in vs heat out. This run looks good. Working up from low power is the way to go I think. I am also using a new tube for each run. Electrode Gap is 1.0 inch H2 Fill is 25.4 Torr ( 1.0 in Hg. ) Readings taken every 10 minutes. deg C--watts------------------------------------------ 28.7 0.0 Here begin at 1.2 amps 203.6 15.741 208.9 15.889 214.3 15.973 216.6 16.036 217.7 16.049 217.8 15.936 217.7 15.887 217.2 16.103 234.6 20.604 Here incr. amps to 1.4 236.1 20.576 236.1 20.817 235.7 20.645 236.3 20.686 236.8 20.684 254.1 25.863 Here incr. amps to 1.6 254.4 26.022 254.2 25.719 254.2 25.908 268.9 31.399 Here incr. amps to 1.8 269.2 31.347 268.8 30.962 268.8 31.034 269.2 31.08 282.6 37.002 Here incr. amps to 2.0 282.3 36.821 282.8 36.972 283 3 7.414 283.2 37.406 283.1 37.247 end of run If anyone wants a 12.5 k file for Lotus 123 the above run is on a nice graph. Filename: H042099.123 Will upload to anyone who wants it. Tomorrow, another run as close as I can get to today's power input parameters with a different fill pressure ( 12.7 torr ) Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 04:55:06 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA06648; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 04:50:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 04:50:16 -0700 Message-Id: <199904211145.HAA22014 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Gene on Art Bell tonight Date: Wed, 21 Apr 99 07:49:15 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"Js6FT1.0.od1.tjR7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27020 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortexians: I have been invited onto the Art Bell show tonight (April 21) for a four-hour stint. It starts 11:00 pm Pacific Coast time. The host will be "Hilly Rose" who is a substitute for Art Bell, now on vacation. I believe the number of affiliate stations in the network is about 450 and the audience is estimated at 15,000,000 or so. Check out the Art Bell www site for station listings: www.artbell.com His www site links to ours. Best, Gene Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 04:56:12 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA07322; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 04:51:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 04:51:26 -0700 Message-ID: <000001be8bed$2d4725a0$6d49ccd1 default> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: H2K: H2 Calibration Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 07:48:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"F1O-o2.0.Ko1.-kR7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27021 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I haven't been following this thread closely, but a note from my experience in TV picture tube manufacture: I you are trying for hard vacuum, you can pump forever because the system will outgass forever. The outgassing is a strong function of temperature. What is done with TV tubes is to heat the entire tube while pumping and let it cool down while pumping, then seal it off and flash the getter, which continues to scavenge gases evolving from the cold tube for it's working life. Since you are apparently seeking plasma operation, you are not at this level of vacuum, and the above may be irrelevant. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 08:41:51 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA24366; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:37:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:37:20 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:23:59 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: H2 Calibration To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"FcH123.0.ay5.l2V7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27022 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/20/1999 08:53:04 Pacific Daylight Time, fjsparber earthlink.net writes: > I think your data is showing Dissociation of the H2 Molecules. Perhaps > one more data point at about 6 Torr if you can swing it? > Regards, Frederick > Problem there Fred is that the resolution of the vacuum gauges ( .5 in Hg) is not fine enough to tweak at low pressures. I could try but it really would be guessing. I need a gauge that covers say 1 torr to 50 torr full scale. Does such a thing exist? I searched my catalogs and all I could find in vacuum gauges had a 30 to 0 in Hg. Regards, Vince From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 08:54:11 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA32016; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:49:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:49:39 -0700 Message-ID: <371DF3CA.EF5E28A4 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:50:35 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Vortex-L eskimo.com" Subject: Fwd: Two paragraphs from Russ George Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hp8Cx2.0.Aq7.IEV7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27023 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: April 21, 1999 Vortex: This is a permitted fowarding of two paragraphs from Russ George. This follows the relaying of Jed's suggestion to Scott of going to SRI with his calorimeter. -ak- > As for Little going to SRI I don't understand this. He is just blustering and > bragging surely he doesn't think his puny incompetence holds a candle to the > expertise of McKubre and Tanzella. One thing is for certain those two guys are > probably amongst the best calorimetrists in the world. Scott's garage style > device and braggadacio is ridiculous in comparison. He's just trying to get in > to steal whatever know how he can steal and give himself some kind of > credibility. He's also likely simply trying to impose the infamous "Little > Effect" on those experiments. > > Really the idea of calorimetry is not appropriate on those small catalytic > cells. The helium signature provides more than adequate calorimetry. NO one in > the fusion energy community (HOT fusion) uses calorimetry. The radiation flux > is quantitatively measured and interpolated to energy. They use the neutron > flux but are perfectly comfortable with alphas as well. We can calculate the > energy in the catalytic cells by doing the simple math of 23 mev times the > number of helium atoms observed. This whole idea of doing calorimetry on those > experiments is a means to deflect the attention from the stunning quality of > the nuclear product signature. People should just hold their horse for a few > months then they can stand next to a really big and hot catalytic cell and warm > themselves next to it. Then calorimetry will be really trivial. > > You can post the two paragraphs above on Vortex as a quote from me. > > Russ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 09:16:42 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA07411; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:12:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:12:15 -0700 Message-ID: <371DF87D.E6C571CC earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:10:38 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: H2K: H2 Calibration References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RAVkN1.0.gp1.VZV7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27024 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram aol.com wrote: > Snip > I need a gauge that covers say 1 torr to 50 torr full scale. > Does such a thing exist? Yes but. :-) The aneroid manometers that use a bellows rack&pinon are good from 0 to 1,000 Torr,or some are designed for lower presures Wallace & Tiernan I think). There are also solid state or capacitive pressure gauges that you can find on the internet. Otherwise an altimeter along with a pressure vs altitude chart will get you there. :-) I'll scout the "net" to see what might be cheaper than a mercury "U tube" manometer. Regards, Frederick > I searched my catalogs and all I could find in vacuum > gauges had a 30 to 0 in Hg. > > Regards, > Vince From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 09:39:47 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA16308; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:34:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:34:37 -0700 Message-ID: <000c01be8c15$0e3133e0$a31a010a ar91037.argis.com> Reply-To: "Craig Haynie" From: "Craig Haynie" To: Subject: Re: Two paragraphs from Russ George Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:35:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA16278 Resent-Message-ID: <"-bgbe2.0.k-3.TuV7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27025 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: What a shame! There may be many good calorimetrists (?) in the world, much better than Scott, but the one I would trust the most is Scott, for the simple reason that he has demonstrated his committment, his seriousness, his honesty, his openness, and his skepticism. I suppose I would trust others in a similar light, if they would present themselves in the same vein, but so far, I haven't seen these qualities in others to the same degree. Craig Haynie (Houston) -----Original Message----- From: Akira Kawasaki To: Vortex-L eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 10:52 AM Subject: Fwd: Two paragraphs from Russ George > > >April 21, 1999 > >Vortex: > >This is a permitted fowarding of two paragraphs from Russ George. This follows the >relaying of Jed's suggestion to Scott of going to SRI with his calorimeter. > >-ak- > >> As for Little going to SRI I don't understand this. He is just blustering and >> bragging surely he doesn't think his puny incompetence holds a candle to the >> expertise of McKubre and Tanzella. One thing is for certain those two guys are >> probably amongst the best calorimetrists in the world. Scott's garage style >> device and braggadacio is ridiculous in comparison. He's just trying to get in >> to steal whatever know how he can steal and give himself some kind of >> credibility. He's also likely simply trying to impose the infamous "Little >> Effect" on those experiments. >> >> Really the idea of calorimetry is not appropriate on those small catalytic >> cells. The helium signature provides more than adequate calorimetry. NO one in >> the fusion energy community (HOT fusion) uses calorimetry. The radiation flux >> is quantitatively measured and interpolated to energy. They use the neutron >> flux but are perfectly comfortable with alphas as well. We can calculate the >> energy in the catalytic cells by doing the simple math of 23 mev times the >> number of helium atoms observed. This whole idea of doing calorimetry on those >> experiments is a means to deflect the attention from the stunning quality of >> the nuclear product signature. People should just hold their horse for a few >> months then they can stand next to a really big and hot catalytic cell and warm >> themselves next to it. Then calorimetry will be really trivial. >> >> You can post the two paragraphs above on Vortex as a quote from me. >> >> Russ > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 11:06:31 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA17514; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:01:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:01:11 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990421140106.0079d400 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:01:06 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rgeorge@hooked.net From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Two paragraphs from Russ George Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"13Kcy2.0.aH4.c9X7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27026 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Russ George writes: As for Little going to SRI I don't understand this. He is just blustering and bragging . . . This is unfair to Scott. He never mentioned going to SRI, and he never compared his skills to theirs. It was my idea. Scott expressed interest in visiting Les Case, but Case turned him down, so I thought a trip to SRI might be a good alternative. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 12:03:31 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA02912; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:55:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:55:13 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:07:30 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Fwd: Two paragraphs from Russ George Resent-Message-ID: <"a6JZ73.0.Qj.GyX7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27027 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 8:50 AM 4/21/99, Akira Kawasaki forwarded from Russ George: [snip] > As for Little going to SRI I don't understand this. He is just blustering and > bragging ... [snip] > just trying to get in > to steal whatever know how he can steal and give himself some kind of > credibility. [snip] >People should just hold their horse for a few > months then they can stand next to a really big and hot catalytic cell >and warm > themselves next to it. Then calorimetry will be really trivial. This is wonderful news! We have only to wait a few months to witness the fantastic breakthrough technology vital to the future of the planet for which many of us have strived so diligently and failed. There is no need for the old debates and vagaries regarding calorimetry - there will be available an effortless definitive proof. As a bonus, also with no effort at all, we get a determination of who is doing the blustering and bragging and stealing to give himself some kind of credibility. There is thankfully no need for heated debate of this inflammatory issue either, since a definitive answer is effortlessly coming within a few months. It is also good that Scott is on vacation, and Russ is not subscribed, which further spares us this kind of heated debate. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 12:16:12 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08545; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:11:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:11:39 -0700 From: "Ed Wall" To: Subject: RE: Two paragraphs from Russ George Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:12:47 -0400 Message-ID: <000501be8c2a$f135c2e0$db4f7dc7 computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 In-Reply-To: <371DF3CA.EF5E28A4 ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"kKRu-.0.952.gBY7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27028 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortex: Russ George wrote: > > > As for Little going to SRI I don't understand this. He is just > blustering and > > bragging surely he doesn't think his puny incompetence holds a > candle to the > > expertise of McKubre and Tanzella. One thing is for certain > those two guys are > > probably amongst the best calorimetrists in the world. Scott's > garage style > > device and braggadacio is ridiculous in comparison. He's just > trying to get in > > to steal whatever know how he can steal and give himself some kind of > > credibility. He's also likely simply trying to impose the > infamous "Little > > Effect" on those experiments. > > I find the above to be just plain sad. Scott Little is good at what he does. He communicates well. He exercises great restraint in dealing with people (manners) and can be quite helpful, even if you don't ask him. He takes a real pleasure in helping, which is a wonderful thing and takes earnest desire to maintain. I think he is too skeptical (as I find the evidence for CF to be convincing, but I still take replications as reassurring), and I certainly respect his right to be that way. I think his recent comments about CF being hypothetical and pathological science were inflammatory. Reasonable minds will disagree. Scott has much to offer. I wish I had as much. Intelligent minds will learn from disagreement and keep the disagreement from destroying communication. Of course, this is much easier said than done. I did not understand much about his 'Versatile Water Flow Calorimeter' until he suggested that I build one. I soon learned from my efforts at flow calorimetry that the inlet water temperature stability is of great importance, that drift kills accuracy for energy measurements. Scott pretty basically offered to help me in any way to duplicate his device. It is capable of use in a very wide variety of configurations. If you can get copper tubing around the device in such a way that with the concomitant insulation virtually all the heat escaping from it comes out through the water, the heat recovery will approach 100%. That means that no calibration, in the usual sense, is required, and results are more trustworthy. This also means that the calorimeter can operate in environments where the temperature is not well controlled, which is important for long runs (BTW, he monitors external temperature). The Earthtech website has an example of testing of the VWFC using a Joule heater. I am in the process of building a VWFC, when I am not preoccupied with Case cell calorimetry and other stuff. I am convinced that Case cell calorimetry can be accomplished by basic thermometry for two reasons, but I see a need to be rigorous and use multiple methods of calorimetry, preferably simultaneously, if only to give skeptics cause to hesitate. The first is that Case compared deuterium with protium using many different catalysts where excess temperature did not appear. If the difference in heat conduction of deuterium and protium were the reason for the higher temperature, why wouldn't there always be an excess temperature for every deuterium run? Secondly, I have done quite a few runs with protium and deuterium using the Case recommended United Catalyst G-75E and seen no significant temperature difference between protium and deuterium runs. I have tried numerous things to bring this configuration closer to what I perceive Case's to be and am still trying. So, I believe that the pronounced excess temperature being due to the gas difference hypothesis is false. >This whole idea of doing > calorimetry on those > > experiments is a means to deflect the attention from the > stunning quality of > > the nuclear product signature. This is just Russ George blowing his horn. Any meaningful attempt at replication is good. I am very glad to see his success and have congratulated him for it. He is correct in asserting that the nuclear signature is definitive. I see no reason that calorimetry would not be definitive, in the absence of a prosaic explanation for it, but commensurate excess energy and helium concentration repeated widely is more like what is needed in the face of the deeply entrenched pathological skepticism we face. Ed Wall New Energy Research Laboratory Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816 (603) 226-4822 fax 224-5975 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 14:37:25 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA30559; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:31:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:31:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:31:22 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Weird Transformer Effects Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"BeA5O3.0.BT7.nEa7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27029 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: All, One you can try at home easily and it's paradoxical and bizarre! I have a toroidal transformer with a primary and secondary. Turns ratio is irrelevant but primary is 6V to secondary 240V (ie 1:40). Now Imagine this setup (this is done with relays so every goes back to high impedance, o/c): Primary to a voltage source: ________ | | | | | | --------- ------------------------- Secondary shorted by relay: ____________________ | | | | | | ------------- ------------------------- Assume that on primary side we have given enough time for transients to die away so that steady current in primary. We then short the secondary. FACT when we do this, no effect on primary side (as you'd expect). WITH SECONDARY STILL SHORTED. Disconnect primary current. What happens? You'd expect to see a back-emf in the primary? Hang on flux links the secondary too, so you'd see one there too, right? FACT: nothing!! So what happens when you eventually unshort the secondary (the primary is o/c)? (Eventually could mean seconds, days, weeks, months, years ...) FACT: You see a back emf in the primary!! (Finally!) A Quick Thought: 1) IF we did see a back emf when we o/c the primary we could violate c-of-e because we flux link two coils. Imagine the primary(s) is an LC tank circuit setup to give us the pulse. We then un o/c our secondary when the current in the primary is steady and pick up that change in flux when we o/c the primary. NATURE won't let us do that. 2) If when we unshorted the secondary we saw no back emf in the primary, where did our electrical work go in setting up the primary current??? It can't have disappeared - another violation of c-of-e. 3) Okay, we saw a back emf. That implies a flux was present => a current was flowing. Hang on, the primary is open circuit!!! The secondary is shorted, there must be current in the secondary BUT the secondary is totally passive (no current sources). WHAT THE HELL KEEPS THE CURRENT GOING! (especially if we unshort days after!) If there is no current, there is no magnetic field. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What generated our back emf? I've been talking to some engineer freinds of mine - there is some stress in space apart from the usual em fields. Please, can we have an answer. Can anybody make use of this phenomenom. This is so easy to replicate. Remi Cornwall. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 15:16:42 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA09080; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:10:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:07:16 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Int'l Symposium on Ball Lightning '99 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"-6R_A3.0.mD2.Vpa7t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27030 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L http://home.wxs.nl/~icblsec SIXTH INTERNATIONAL SYMPOSIUM ON BALL LIGHTNING 23-25 AUGUST 1999 IN UIA, UNIVERSITY OF ANTWERP, ANTWERP, BELGIUM Chair: dr. Geert C. Dijkhuis Co-chair: prof. Dirk K. Callebaut PRELIMINARY PROGRAM SESSIONS: Data from ball lightning observation Laboratory experiments with fireballs Theory of ball lightning Video's (PAL/SECAM) Prospective authors are requested to submit a 300 - 350 word abstract for each presentation. The authors of the abstracts which we selected will be required to submit camera-ready full papers (6 pages or less). DEADLINES: ABSTRACTS MARCH 1, 1999 CAMERA-READY FULL PAPERS JULY 1, 1999 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 15:26:56 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA20136; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:20:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:20:45 -0700 Posted-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 01:18:53 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <371E4E3C.3644D20A verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 01:16:28 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Weird Transformer Effects References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kOoO52.0.Xw4.zya7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27031 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Cornwall RO wrote: > > WITH SECONDARY STILL SHORTED. Disconnect primary current. What happens? > You'd expect to see a back-emf in the primary? Hang on flux links the > secondary too, so you'd see one there too, right? FACT: nothing!! > Things will be simplified if one unify primary and the secondary windings. Just imagine a 1:1 transformer and discard the secondary: o----+ +----o P S P S P S o----+ +----o become o----+----o P P P o----+----o They are equivalent if coupling is assumed unity in a over simplified model. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 15:42:11 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA14987; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:36:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:35:06 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Weird Transformer Effects In-Reply-To: <371E4E3C.3644D20A verisoft.com.tr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"atHB82.0.1g3.eBb7t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27032 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hamdi, A good lateral shift. I'll have a think about it... but what you draw is like an autotransformer - I can't see how the primary and secondary could do independent things. I'll sleep on this. Tomorrow I'll try the experimental apporach to this and measure to see if there is any secondary current. Remi. On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, hamdi ucar wrote: > Cornwall RO wrote: > > > > WITH SECONDARY STILL SHORTED. Disconnect primary current. What happens? > > You'd expect to see a back-emf in the primary? Hang on flux links the > > secondary too, so you'd see one there too, right? FACT: nothing!! > > > > Things will be simplified if one unify primary and the secondary windings. Just imagine a 1:1 transformer and discard the secondary: > > > o----+ +----o > P S > P S > P S > o----+ +----o > > become > > o----+----o > P > P > P > o----+----o > > They are equivalent if coupling is assumed unity in a over simplified model. > > Regards, hamdi ucar > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 15:49:52 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA16371; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:43:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:42:15 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Weird Transformer Effects In-Reply-To: <371E4E3C.3644D20A verisoft.com.tr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"PFnOA2.0.i_3.SIb7t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27033 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hamdi, the penny has dropped. I get you now. With 1:1 the whole 4 port looks like a two port, the leads go straight thru' as if there is no transformer there... I'll need to sleep on this though. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 17:07:51 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA21843; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:02:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:02:58 -0700 Message-ID: <371E6697.49629576 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:00:24 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Vacuum Tubes as Photoemissive Gas CF Generators? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sMhAg.0.9L5.oSc7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27034 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex The indirectly heated cathode in ordinary vacuum/electron tubes (usually Nickel) can be coated with Cs, K, Rb, Na, or Li and sensitized with H2 or D2. The filament heater then can be used to bring the cathode temperature up to the 170 to 270 degree temperatures used in the Case device. One should be able to pressurize the tubes to a few atmospheres with D2 or H2. Some of the older portable radio tubes used Cesium/Cesium Oxide on the cathode to get decent thermionic emission at low filament power. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 17:50:29 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA01901; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:45:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:45:14 -0700 Message-ID: <371E717C.2BFB interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:46:52 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Weird Transformer Effects References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BWiVf3.0.dT.P4d7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27035 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Cornwall RO wrote: > (snip) > Assume that on primary side we have given enough time for transients to > die away so that steady current in primary. We then short the secondary. > FACT when we do this, no effect on primary side (as you'd expect). > > WITH SECONDARY STILL SHORTED. Disconnect primary current. What happens? > You'd expect to see a back-emf in the primary? Hang on flux links the > secondary too, so you'd see one there too, right? FACT: nothing!! How can this be, Remi?? If this were true, a regular auto induction ignition coil would not work. In such a coil, the CEMF is so large it forms its own shorting path thru the ignition spark - which acts like an effective high-voltage switch. In actual practice, the collapse of the flux may be very fast - depending on the details of the circuits. I know from experience that you can place an inductor across a 6-volt car battery (OK, 12 will do) with your fingers in contact with both coil leads. At contact and steady state - no problem. But, lift the contacts off the battery and a huge CEMF will kick you across the room! I expect that if you open the primary with the secondary shorted, the flux energy will dump into secondary I^2*R heating so fast that you might not see it unless you have a scope connected across a shunt in the secondary to pick up the current pulse. Maybe I don't understand your exact protocol?? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 17:56:18 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA03479; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:51:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:51:38 -0700 Message-ID: <371E72BE.4A5A interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:52:14 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Int'l Symposium on Ball Lightning '99 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zlOK53.0.Hs.QAd7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27036 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > (snip) > SIXTH INTERNATIONAL SYMPOSIUM > ON BALL LIGHTNING > > 23-25 AUGUST 1999 Thanks, Bill! If anyone hears when the papers are available, I would really appreciate a holler. Frank Stenger (fstenger interlaced.net) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 18:01:48 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA04914; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:55:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:55:52 -0700 Posted-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 03:54:13 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <371E7308.30DD311B verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 03:53:28 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Weird Transformer Effects References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pd6wH1.0.iC1.OEd7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27037 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Cornwall RO wrote: > > Hamdi, > > the penny has dropped. I get you now. With 1:1 the whole 4 port looks like > a two port, the leads go straight thru' as if there is no transformer > there... Exactly! In a ideal xformer, primary and secondary signals are in phase, and you can drop the inductances as they are infinite and xformer evaporate! :) o------------o Primary Secondary o------------o Of course this diagram does not help too much who want to explore xformers :) > I'll need to sleep on this though. > Remi. hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 18:05:46 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA07089; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:59:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:59:56 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <371DF3CA.EF5E28A4 ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:52:01 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Fwd: Two paragraphs from Russ George Resent-Message-ID: <"rTQF22.0.ck1.CId7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27038 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >April 21, 1999 > >Vortex: > >This is a permitted fowarding of two paragraphs from Russ George. This >follows the >relaying of Jed's suggestion to Scott of going to SRI with his calorimeter. > >-ak- > >> As for Little going to SRI I don't understand this. He is just >>blustering and >> bragging surely he doesn't think his puny incompetence holds a candle to the >> expertise of McKubre and Tanzella. One thing is for certain those two >>guys are >> probably amongst the best calorimetrists in the world. Scott's garage style >> device and braggadacio is ridiculous in comparison. He's just trying to >>get in >> to steal whatever know how he can steal ***{You seem to be saying either that Scott Little would refuse to sign a nondisclosure agreement, or else that he would violate it after signing it. That is a serious charge, and should be buttressed with some evidence. If you have such evidence, I suggest that you supply it. This group is already overrun with people who cannot distinguish between possibilities and facts, and does not need another. --Mitchell Jones}*** and give himself some kind of >> credibility. He's also likely simply trying to impose the infamous "Little >> Effect" on those experiments. >> >> Really the idea of calorimetry is not appropriate on those small catalytic >> cells. The helium signature provides more than adequate calorimetry. NO >>one in >> the fusion energy community (HOT fusion) uses calorimetry. The radiation >>flux >> is quantitatively measured and interpolated to energy. They use the neutron >> flux but are perfectly comfortable with alphas as well. We can calculate the >> energy in the catalytic cells by doing the simple math of 23 mev times the >> number of helium atoms observed. This whole idea of doing calorimetry on >>those >> experiments is a means to deflect the attention from the stunning quality of >> the nuclear product signature. People should just hold their horse for >>a few >> months then they can stand next to a really big and hot catalytic cell >>and warm >> themselves next to it. Then calorimetry will be really trivial. ***{Maybe, but until you demonstrate the ability to distinguish between possibilities and facts, I'll not bet on it. --MJ}*** >> >> You can post the two paragraphs above on Vortex as a quote from me. >> >> Russ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 18:29:33 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA18730; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:24:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:24:11 -0700 Message-ID: <371E79AC.A61F5681 ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:21:49 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Weird Transformer Effects References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sllI73.0.aa4.xed7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27039 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Never the less this reminds me of that coral castle guy (don't make me spell his name) who magnetized a (soft I assume) iron ring with a coil around it (I guess he did that by applying current to the coil briefly), when the flux path was broken even after years there would be a pulse in the coil indicating that the flux had stayed in the soft iron ring even though there was nothing to perpetuate it. John Berry Cornwall RO wrote: > Hamdi, > > the penny has dropped. I get you now. With 1:1 the whole 4 port looks like > a two port, the leads go straight thru' as if there is no transformer > there... > > I'll need to sleep on this though. > Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 21:34:21 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA12276; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:27:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:27:20 -0700 Message-ID: <371EA49C.232984F0 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:25:00 -0600 From: "Richard T. Murray" Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: translation of Russ George re Little's "blustering and bragging" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"r5LYD3.0.k_2.eKg7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27040 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: April 21, 1999 "Uhhhh...mmmmmmm.....cough, cough...ahem, ahem...I just don't have any consistent excess heat from my devices, yet, so far." Russ George as channeled by the notorious Santa Fe psychic, Rich Murray Subject: Fwd: Two paragraphs from Russ George Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:49:39 -0700 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:50:35 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: "Vortex-L eskimo.com" April 21, 1999 Vortex: This is a permitted fowarding of two paragraphs from Russ George. This follows the relaying of Jed's suggestion to Scott of going to SRI with his calorimeter. -ak- rgeorge hooked.net > As for Little going to SRI I don't understand this. He is just blustering and > bragging surely he doesn't think his puny incompetence holds a candle to the > expertise of McKubre and Tanzella. One thing is for certain those two guys are > probably amongst the best calorimetrists in the world. Scott's garage style > device and braggadacio is ridiculous in comparison. He's just trying to get in > to steal whatever know how he can steal and give himself some kind of > credibility. He's also likely simply trying to impose the infamous "Little > Effect" on those experiments. > > Really the idea of calorimetry is not appropriate on those small catalytic > cells. The helium signature provides more than adequate calorimetry. NO one in > the fusion energy community (HOT fusion) uses calorimetry. The radiation flux > is quantitatively measured and interpolated to energy. They use the neutron > flux but are perfectly comfortable with alphas as well. We can calculate the > energy in the catalytic cells by doing the simple math of 23 mev times the > number of helium atoms observed. This whole idea of doing calorimetry on those > experiments is a means to deflect the attention from the stunning quality of > the nuclear product signature. People should just hold their horse for a few > months then they can stand next to a really big and hot catalytic cell and > warm themselves next to it. Then calorimetry will be really trivial. > > You can post the two paragraphs above on Vortex as a quote from me. > > Russ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 22:09:43 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA23144; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:02:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:02:17 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <47c730b3.2450070c aol.com> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 01:01:00 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: H2 Calibration To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"D31l12.0.Xf5.Prg7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27041 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: !! HEADS UP !! WATCH THE "REPLY TO:" LINE IN MY POSTS. AOL IS PLUGGING MY URL IN THERE INSTEAD OF THE VORTEX-L URL. I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO FIX THAT, AND BELIEVE ME I TRIED EVERY SETTING FOR 3 HOURS LAST NITE. AOL TECH SUPPORT IS BLAMING VORTEX WHICH IS B.S. =================================================== Now, that done, here are the raw data for today's run. Discharge in H2 at a fill pressure of 12.7 Torr. Electrode gap is 1.0 inch. Data points every 10 minutes except for the first four because the watt-hour meter rotor took over 11 minutes for 1 rotation when recording the 5 watt power draw. Ammeter used for relative indication of power in so I could keep input fairly steady without dealing with the watt-hour meter delay. deg C---Watts 28.7 0 136.9 5.419 Start at indicated 0.6 Amp 137.8 5.493 138.8 5.804 159.5 8.534 Increase to 0.8 Amp 159.4 8.347 159.6 8.376 159.5 8.359 178.6 11.918 Increase to 1.0 Amp 178.5 12.1 178.3 12.202 178.6 12.126 194.9 16.437 Increase to 1.2 Amp 195.2 16.413 195.1 16.121 195.1 16.076 208.1 20.865 Increase to 1.4 Amp 207.6 20.713 207.4 20.646 207.4 20.656 220.5 25.521 Increase to 1.6 Amp 220.5 25.539 220.6 25.423 219.1 25.697 232.6 30.451 Increase to 1.8 Amp 232.4 30.377 230.5 30.12 230.7 30.505 239.8 36.014 Increase to 2.0 Amp 239.6 35.867 238.1 35.353 237.4 35.398 Lower fill pressure gave lower temperatures compared to yesterdays run. Picked up a box of carbon welding electrodes today at Frank Stenger's suggestion. All that W being deposited on the tube wall has got to be altering the tube characteristics, so I agree with Frank, carbon is a good choice to try with it's higher melting point. Going to try the carbon tomorrow as I 'think' I have enough data with the W electrodes for the present. While I was at the welding supply I couldn't resist picking up a 1/8 in diameter tungsten welding rod. I also will try a piece of it also. Figuring the W rod wont vaporize as much as the small filament that is in use now due to it's greater mass. We'll see. As always, comments are most welcome. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 22:38:47 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA30765; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:34:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:34:48 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <3b9bd8cd.24500ec1 aol.com> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 01:33:53 EDT Subject: Wrong URL in the Reply to line To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: Verdian aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"mZqlB1.0.ZW7.tJh7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27042 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I sent the following to aol support. I hope this problem can be fixed. Vince I send mail to a listserver vortex-l eskimo.com. when my post is received by the server it resends my post to all list members, including me. The problem is the "REPLY TO:" line. My posts are being resent FROM the vortex-l listserver to all members with MY URL (vcockeram aol.com) in the REPLY TO line. The listservers URL should be there, NOT mine. It was working up to about 3 weeks ago and suddenly changed. This is a great inconvenience to the list members as when they post a reply to my posting it is supposed to go to the listserver, not directly to me, and if a list member does not notice the REPLY TO line URL the members post comes to me instead of the group. This is only happening to AOL members so it's NOT a problem with the Vortex listserver software. Please help as this is very annoying to me and my group members. . Regards Vince Cockeram Las Vegas 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 23:05:11 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA04668; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:58:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:58:24 -0700 Message-ID: <19990422055829.15729.rocketmail send205.yahoomail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:58:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: H2K: H2 Calibration To: Vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"8tVlj.0.s81.0gh7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27043 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A few comments on Vince's work: 1. Why are you using a shunt resistor and AC voltmeter to read current? If your meter has an AC current scale, use it directly. (If your meter doesn't, then scream at Radio Shack.) 2. You post temperature and watt numbers. You should measure the transformer primary voltage and then subtract off the watts due to the transformer open circuit voltage. Remember, we went through this calibration a couple of weeks ago. This would give you a watt number closer to your actual discharge power. 3. Carbon does not melt, but it does vaporize. In the presence of H, hot carbon also makes a zoo of hydrocarbons. I suspect you will have at least as much dirtying of the discharge tube with C as with W. === Michael J. Schaffer _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 23:18:50 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA10439; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:13:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:13:32 -0700 Message-ID: <19990422061337.18767.rocketmail send205.yahoomail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:13:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Weird Transformer Effects To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"zn0C-.0.zY2.Cuh7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27044 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Remy wrote: > Primary to a voltage source: > ________ > | | > | | > | | > --------- ------------------------- > > Secondary shorted by relay: > ____________________ > | | > | | > | | > ------------- ------------------------- > >Assume that on primary side we have given enough time for transients to >die away so that steady current in primary. We then short the secondary. >FACT when we do this, no effect on primary side (as you'd expect). Yes. >WITH SECONDARY STILL SHORTED. Disconnect primary current. What happens? >You'd expect to see a back-emf in the primary? Hang on flux links the >secondary too, so you'd see one there too, right? FACT: nothing!! Actually, since we are talking about real transformers here, you see two kinds of "back" primary emfs. First, because the transformer has nonzero leakage inductance, you see a short voltage spike emf as you break the primary current. (An ideal transformer has no leakage inductance, and you would not see this effect.) At the same time, current is induced in the secondary. Since the secondary has some resistance (it's a real transformer), its current decays exponentially with a characteristic time given by the ratio of the leakage inductance to the secondary resistance. This secondary current decay induces an emf in the (now) open circuited primary. This decay is relatively long, so the emf induced is usually fairly drawn out and small. However, you can see it with an oscilloscope if you know what to look for. No mystery. Conservation of energy holds. See any good book on electrical engineering for a circuit model of a real transformer and work it out as an exercise. === Michael J. Schaffer _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 23:20:00 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA11372; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:14:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:14:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: paddington.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 07:14:52 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi paddington To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Weird Transformer Effects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ZILiz1.0.cn2.Xvh7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27045 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry, duh!, of course there is a current in the secondary! A current is induced, its just that the time constant is so long L/R. Amazing what a bit of sleep can do. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 23:32:03 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA16311; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:26:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:26:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: paddington.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 07:26:41 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi paddington To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Weird Transformer Effects In-Reply-To: <19990422061337.18767.rocketmail send205.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"7kONy3.0.n-3.a4i7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27046 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thank you Michael. Saw it first thing as i got out of bed. Stress in space - indeed! This is what concerned me on the part of that thermodynamic cycle I posted, pos 2 -3. If the secondary is of very low resistance, it will ruin my cycle time - need to match the output thru a transformer to present a high impedance. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 21 23:46:58 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA23307; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:42:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:42:09 -0700 From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: Weird Transformer Effects Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:19:25 -0400 Message-ID: <01be8c45$0388c680$0c6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"1yPNb.0.5i5.0Ji7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27047 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Remi wrote: >I have a toroidal transformer with a primary and secondary. Turns ratio is >irrelevant but primary is 6V to secondary 240V (ie 1:40). Now Imagine this >setup (this is done with relays so every goes back to high impedance, >o/c): > >Primary to a voltage source: > ________ > | | > | | > | | >--------- ------------------------- > >Secondary shorted by relay: > ____________________ > | | > | | > | | >------------- ------------------------- > >Assume that on primary side we have given enough time for transients to >die away so that steady current in primary. We then short the secondary. >FACT when we do this, no effect on primary side (as you'd expect). - Yes, shorting the secondary during steady state should do nothing. I will asume that the input pulse is current limited, as otherwise the primary current after the inductive transient would be very high as it is limited only by the primary resistance. - >WITH SECONDARY STILL SHORTED. Disconnect primary current. What happens? >You'd expect to see a back-emf in the primary? Hang on flux links the >secondary too, so you'd see one there too, right? FACT: nothing!! - This is as expected since the secondary is still shorted, retaining the flux in the core and holding both input and output voltage at zero. - >So what happens when you eventually unshort the secondary (the primary is >o/c)? (Eventually could mean seconds, days, weeks, months, years ...) >FACT: You see a back emf in the primary!! (Finally!) - This is also as expected, except for the longer time periods. When you interrupt the primary, all of the current to support the flux is transferred to the secondary. The secondary flux will decay with a time constant determined by the secondary L and winding resistance. Time constants of minutes would not be uncommon, but hours would be strange. What are the measured L & R values for the secondary? - >2) If when we unshorted the secondary we saw no back emf in the primary, >where did our electrical work go in setting up the primary current??? It >can't have disappeared - another violation of c-of-e. - It went into flux in the core and heating of the coils. - >3) Okay, we saw a back emf. That implies a flux was present => a current >was flowing. Hang on, the primary is open circuit!!! The secondary is >shorted, there must be current in the secondary BUT the secondary is >totally passive (no current sources). WHAT THE HELL KEEPS THE CURRENT >GOING! (especially if we unshort days after!) > >If there is no current, there is no magnetic field. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - There is still a remnant flux, but it cannot support a permanent current. Initial current in the secondary is no mystery, a current that persists for days is mysterious. - Regards, George - George Holz Varitronics Systems 732-356-7773 george varisys.com 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 22 01:56:39 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA22639; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 01:50:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 01:50:22 -0700 Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C0215B1B5 XCH-CPC-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Weird Transformer Effects Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:58:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2407.0) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"zjRXt.0.bX5.EBk7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27048 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Initially, you would have a transient current in the shorted secondary, which will soon die out with a time constant of L/R seconds as it generates heat. Any stored magnetic field will disappear as the current goes to zero. Nothing will happen after that. Hank > ---------- > From: Cornwall RO[SMTP:R.O.Cornwall city.ac.uk] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 3:35 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Weird Transformer Effects > > Hamdi, > > A good lateral shift. I'll have a think about it... but what you draw is > like an autotransformer - I can't see how the primary and secondary could > do independent things. I'll sleep on this. > > Tomorrow I'll try the experimental apporach to this and measure to see if > there is any secondary current. > Remi. > > On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, hamdi ucar wrote: > > > Cornwall RO wrote: > > > > > > WITH SECONDARY STILL SHORTED. Disconnect primary current. What > happens? > > > You'd expect to see a back-emf in the primary? Hang on flux links the > > > secondary too, so you'd see one there too, right? FACT: nothing!! > > > > > > > Things will be simplified if one unify primary and the secondary > windings. Just imagine a 1:1 transformer and discard the secondary: > > > > > > o----+ +----o > > P S > > P S > > P S > > o----+ +----o > > > > become > > > > o----+----o > > P > > P > > P > > o----+----o > > > > They are equivalent if coupling is assumed unity in a over simplified > model. > > > > Regards, hamdi ucar > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 22 03:58:51 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA10244; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 03:50:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 03:50:12 -0700 Message-ID: <371EFE39.E6A09F4 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 04:47:21 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: H2K: H2 Calibration Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"E55012.0.-V2.axl7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27049 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Schaffer wrote: Snip > >Carbon doesn't melt, but it makes a zoo of hydrocarbons in hydrogen > You just solved the "Energy Crisis" Michael: C + 2 H2 ----> CH4 the direct Hydrogenation of carbon, not on your tin-type. Hydrocarbons, CxHy will break down at high tempertures to make Lampblack plus H2 etc., though: CxHy + heat ----> CH4 + C2H2 (acetylene & Fullerenes) :-) At any rate since Vince says that Frank Stenger suggested the carbon rods, that leaves me off the hook if I'm wrong. LOL! :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 22 05:50:44 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA06326; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 05:45:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 05:45:59 -0700 Message-ID: <371F1915.441A8AEB earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 06:41:59 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" , Ron.Brodzinski@pnl.gov, Claytor lanl.gov Subject: Re: Light Lepton: Neutrino-Antineutrino & Electron-Positron Pair Production Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bzqSI3.0.eY1.6en7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27050 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Taking 5A - Z "quarks" including Z external electrons in any atom or a Neutron (on1): Electron capture by 4Be7 to form 3Li7: 4Be7: 5A - Z = 35 - 4 = 31 "quarks" & external electrons 2A "up' or + = 14 2A - Z "down" or - = 14 - 4 = 10 A - Z antineutrinos = 7 - 4 = 3 Z external electrons = 4 Total = 14 + 10 + 3 + 4 = 31 3Li7: 5A - Z = 35 - 3 = 32 "quarks" & external electrons 2A " up" or + = 14 2A - Z "down" or - = 14 - 3 = 11 A - Z antineutrinos = 7 - 3 = 4 Z external electrons = 3 Total = 14 + 11 + 4 + 3 = 32 Evidently since an external electron was taken up by the 4Be7 and there was a gain of one antineutrino and about 0.86 Mev given off (carried off by a neutrino and gammas) there HAD TO BE A NEUTRINO-ANTINEUTRINO PAIR FORMED in the process. For Positron or Negatron (Beta) Decay where necessarilly the energy must be high enough to form the Positron-Electron and Neutrino-Antineutrino Pairs one can use the same approach for seeing the mechanism. For a Neutron, on1: 5A - Z = 5*1 - 0 = 5 "quarks" and no external electrons: 2A "up" or + = 2 2A - Z "down" or - = 2 A - Z antineutrinos = 1 Z external electrons = 0 Total: 2 + 2 + 1 + 0 = 5 OTOH, if the Light Leptons (Neutrino-Antineutrino) pairs are formed by Electron-Proton or Electron-Deuteron Collisions at gas temperature of less than 1,000 K and form a Neutral Composite that can effect "Cold Fusion" Reactions then the Neutrinos can carry away enormous amounts of energy without detection. So if Russ George is counting on the CF formation of D + D = He4 + 23.8 Mev sans gammas, without calorimetry, I think he is in for a surprise. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 22 06:34:43 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA04972; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 06:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 06:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001901be8906$c75e2ec0$484accd1 default> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:19:16 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Existence Proof and the Scott Test Resent-Message-ID: <"W808s2.0.cD1.mAo7t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27051 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Much of the acrimony in the CF/spf/vortex debate revolves about different >standards of proof, which are givens for each person and so unstated, and >perhaps unrealized (since they are so 'obvious'). Herewith an ambitious >attempt to sort them out. > >Q1. Does there exist at least one reaction involving nuclear particles that >does not conform to the standard understanding of such processes? > >F&P's answer, after five years of work and personal investment of ~$100,000, >was Yes, for a reaction involving deuterium and palladium. What followed was >years of personal attacks and denial by the physics establishment. Among the >events was sloppy work by Harwell and CalTech and misrepresentation by MIT >of internal results to the ERAB committee, and a decade of official denial >of Existence of CF by the government and the physics establishment. The >machinations of Park and Zimmerman are only the most recent examples. > >Q2. What are the signatures of this reaction? > >F&P's answer was excess heat and neutron radiation for their experiment. The >neutron signature was the most easily attacked, since the values F&P >reported did not conform to the standard Rutherford DD reaction observed in >plasmas. F&P retracted their report of neutron radiation, but not the excess >heat signature. As the experimental work went forward in many labs, weak >neutron radiation has been seen under some, but not all, circumstances -- so >it is possible that F&P's observation was correct. > >The heat signature has become the battleground of the debate ever since. >Heat is fundamental and (apparently) easily measured. But it has to be >greater that any possible chemical reaction, storage effect, or experimental >error. If excess heat is definitely present, then it is compelling evidence >that the answer to Q1 is Yes. > >In the decade since F&P, the excess heat has been confirmed in many >experiments. Not only does it manifest in the sense of power -- rate of >production, but in total energy released. The most public of these >demonstrations are the Patterson Power Cell in several venues, climaxing at >PowerGen 95. The extreme numbers from Jed's measurements -- over a kilowatt >power yield for a short period -- have been challenged by Mitchell Jones and >Mitchell Swartz. What is not challenged is that the power yield was far over >unity, by a factor of dozens or hundreds for a period of hours. ***{The above statement is very misleading. The Power Gen demo was cobbled together in haste to meet an externally imposed deadline, and was a comedy of errors, not science. Given the number of mistakes that were unearthed, days and weeks after the fact by the analysis of incomplete data, who knows how many others could have been found if the apparatus had been set up in a laboratory environment staffed by qualified personnel? Bottom line: everything about the Power Gen demo was suspect, including whether the power yield was ever over unity at all, despite what you say. It is of course possible that it was over unity, but a possibility is not a fact. Regarding the generalized class of reactions which Power Gen represented--that is, those using CETI's proprietary metal coated plastic beads--it is interesting to note that the company is apparently no longer able to obtain an "over unity" result in these types of cells. We are told that this is due to the fact that the source of palladium which they used in their manufacturing process is no longer available, and palladium from other sources does not seem to result in "over unity" beads. Since the original supply of beads was used up before it was realized that the source of the palladium was a critical factor, there is no way to go back, study the beads that worked, and figure out how they differed from the present beads which do not work. Thus, if these reports are accurate, work on the Patterson Power Cell is apparently pretty much at a standstill. The alternative explanation is that the original cells were never "over unity" at all, and that as CETI's calorimetry has improved, their experimental results have come into line with that underlying state of affairs. This possibility is buttressed by the logical difficulty inherent in the claim that the source of the palladium matters. Remember: the CETI beads are produced by electroplating palladium onto a plastic substrate--which means that the atoms of palladium do not remain in the configurations which they were in while within the source material, once they have been deposited on the beads. Thus it is a major stretch to suppose that they somehow *remember* the configuration of the source material once there, and refuse to behave unless that configuration was correct. The only alternative to such an interpretation, however, would be to suppose that there were unknown impurities in the source material, that they were necessary to the successful bead makeup, and that they somehow made their way onto the beads in the deposition process. If so, they would have to have been in the form of positive ions, and likely metallic, so one would think that by a fairly simple process of elimination they would have been quickly identified and added to the mix. In that case, CETI should be up and running by now, with robust "over unity" cells such as Jed at first took the Power Gen cell to be. Since they apparently are not, it is reasonable to doubt that their cells were ever "over unity" at all. --Mitchell Jones}*** There is >also the "heat after death" phenomenon, in which loaded cathodes remain hot >for hours after the electrolysis current is shut off. ***{I keep hearing these stories, but I wonder why hundreds of scientists were not brought into the lab to witness any of these events. If I had a chunk of metal that stayed a hundred degrees above room temperature for days or weeks, I think I could attract a lot of attention from just about any scientist or engineer I showed it to. How, then, do you explain why the CF phenomenon is still not generally accepted? If, for example, you had a unicorn that obligingly stayed at your side for days or weeks, don't you think you could manage to convince the world that unicorns exist? --Mitchell Jones}*** McKubre has measured >excess heat of lower magnitude but with such precision that there is no room >for error of measurement or procedure left. The details are in a large >report which must be studied to be appreciated. The experiments of Arata & >Zhang show clearly energy yields far beyond chemical means, and are being >duplicated by McKubre using cathodes prepared by A&Z. Mitchell Swartz has >reported excess heat with nickel cathodes in carefully optimized >experiments. ***{Here, indeed, is the only type of "proof" of the phenomenon that is currently available: small effects alleged to have been produced under very complex circumstances where reasonable people will suspect error, and thus will demand multiple replications from independent laboratories. And, when those labs--e.g., Earth Tech--report failure to replicate, we are told not to worry, because the CF effect, like the transistor effect, is "difficult to achieve." Well, that's fine: maybe it *is* difficult to achieve. However, those who use this argument must simply get it through their heads that, when they use it, they are *not* proving that the effect is real. All they are doing is buying time--staving off, for the moment, the complete collapse of their position. To actually emerge victorious, they must refine the cathode production process sufficiently that they can begin to *consistently* send out working cathodes to independent labs, so that the effect can be verified, or else they must achieve verification by inviting independent consultants with movable test equipment--such as Scott Little--into their own labs. Otherwise, they invite skepticism from reasonable people, and that is exactly what they will continue to get. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Such work is far more thorough that anything that Scott can do with his >calorimeter. > >A desperate attack on these many experiments is that few are actual >replications of the same configuration by different observers; they are >similar experiments producing qualitatively similar but not numerically >identical results. > >Q3. Does there exist a plurality of reactions satisfying the criterion of >Q1? > >The answer is clearly Yes after a decade of research. This is why there are >now conferences on Low Energy Nuclear Reactions and sessions at meetings of >the American Physical Society and the American Nuclear Society, and why >Professor Miley now heads a LENR laboratory at the University of >Illinois.The F&P experiment is only the first of a parade of discoveries. ***{Perhaps, but thus far there is no proof that is convincing to a reasonable outsider. --MJ}*** [snip] > >Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 22 07:04:35 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA13089; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 06:59:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 06:59:38 -0700 Message-ID: <371F2BA9.15D3 interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:01:13 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: H2 Calibration References: <371EFE39.E6A09F4 earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FVDmN3.0.IC3.9jo7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27052 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > (snip) > At any rate since Vince says that Frank Stenger suggested the carbon > rods, that leaves me off the hook if I'm wrong. LOL! :-) Man - the worst thing about this is that I don't even remember this suggestion!! Vince is becomming a library of my goofy ideas. :-( However, carbon electrodes + electric discharge = amino acids??? If Vince lets any water in the tubes we may see a new life form! I wonder if they will look anything like me? :-) Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 22 07:38:06 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA28613; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 07:30:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 07:30:40 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990422102825.00b453a0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:28:25 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Existence Proof and the Scott Test In-Reply-To: References: <001901be8906$c75e2ec0$484accd1 default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"cvIe7.0.m-6.GAp7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27053 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:19 AM 4/22/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{The above statement is very misleading. The Power Gen demo was cobbled >together in haste to meet an externally imposed deadline, and was a comedy >of errors, not science. Given the number of mistakes that were unearthed, >days and weeks after the fact by the analysis of incomplete data, who knows >how many others could have been found if the apparatus had been set up in a >laboratory environment staffed by qualified personnel? Bottom line: >everything about the Power Gen demo was suspect, including whether the >power yield was ever over unity at all, despite what you say. It is of >course possible that it was over unity, but a possibility is not a fact. > .... >There is >>also the "heat after death" phenomenon, in which loaded cathodes remain hot >>for hours after the electrolysis current is shut off. > >***{I keep hearing these stories, but I wonder why hundreds of scientists >were not brought into the lab to witness any of these events. If I had a >chunk of metal that stayed a hundred degrees above room temperature for >days or weeks, I think I could attract a lot of attention from just about >any scientist or engineer I showed it to. How, then, do you explain why the >CF phenomenon is still not generally accepted? If, for example, you had a >unicorn that obligingly stayed at your side for days or weeks, don't you >think you could manage to convince the world that unicorns exist? >--Mitchell Jones}*** > >McKubre has measured >>excess heat of lower magnitude but with such precision that there is no room >>for error of measurement or procedure left. The details are in a large >>report which must be studied to be appreciated. The experiments of Arata & >>Zhang show clearly energy yields far beyond chemical means, and are being >>duplicated by McKubre using cathodes prepared by A&Z. Mitchell Swartz has >>reported excess heat with nickel cathodes in carefully optimized >>experiments. > >***{Here, indeed, is the only type of "proof" of the phenomenon that is >currently available: small effects alleged to have been produced under very >complex circumstances where reasonable people will suspect error, and thus >will demand multiple replications from independent laboratories. And, when >those labs--e.g., Earth Tech--report failure to replicate, we are told not >to worry, because the CF effect, like the transistor effect, is "difficult >to achieve." Well, that's fine: maybe it *is* difficult to achieve. This is not totally accurate. First, there is the obvious materials issue, which in addition to the optimal operating point (OOP) constitute half or more of, IMO, what is of "difficult to achieve. CF is more complicated that transistors where there is spontaneous p-n junction formation if the dopants are correctly (and quite easily in comparison) loaded. Second, the way has been pointed both generally regarding materials and OOPoints. Furthermore, for Earthtech in particular, the way was pointed out exactly WHERE to look in their input power drive phase space. Like other apparent career-"negativists" before them, there has not been a serious interest to scientific explore what was pointed out. The innuendo against cf researchers is thus misplaced. Third, those who repeatedly purport CF "does not exist" and are unable, or unwilling, to even go back and either do 1) the calibration, or 2) the correct input power drive level, or 3) obtain the correct materials, and 4) read a reasonable sector of the literature, are not backing up their words with serious effort, and are creating more "heat" than "light". Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 22 09:35:03 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA11600; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 07:38:57 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Existence Proof and the Scott Test Resent-Message-ID: <"T6Gjz3.0.5r2.Auq7t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27054 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:19 AM 4/22/99, Mitchell Jones wrote: [snip] >Regarding the generalized class of reactions which Power Gen >represented--that is, those using CETI's proprietary metal coated plastic >beads--it is interesting to note that the company is apparently no longer >able to obtain an "over unity" result in these types of cells. We are told >that this is due to the fact that the source of palladium which they used >in their manufacturing process is no longer available, and palladium from >other sources does not seem to result in "over unity" beads. [snip] >The alternative explanation is that the original cells were never "over >unity" at all, and that as CETI's calorimetry has improved, their >experimental results have come into line with that underlying state of >affairs. This possibility is buttressed by the logical difficulty inherent >in the claim that the source of the palladium matters. A third explanation is available: precise control of the proton conduction and material strength/bonding characteristics of the sulfonated polystyrene bead material is required to produce the Patterson bead excess heat effect. If all the experimental focus was on the metallic layers of Pd, Ni, and sometimes CU, then the importance of the proton conductivity of the bead core would be missed. It is also possible the bead core merely acted as a hydrogen absorber that permitted the action to run for a while before pressure built up to the point the bead was destroyed. If that is the case, then metal coated open ended tubes or a plated sheet polymer proton conductor approach (allowing H2 escape on the back side) should correct the problem. Failure to recognize the importance of and to measure and control the hydrogen storage capacity of the bead core might result in failure. A fifth possibility is that the action takes place at the sufonated plastic to metal interface, that there is a non-symmetric heat exchange wich occurs as hydrogen is driven across this boundary. Each bead has an anode side and cathode side, as well as a neutral "equator". The lack of symmetry of heat exchanges in each of these regions due to protron migration could be the source of heat. If this is the case, a better approach is driving the hydrogen through sandwiched sheets made of similar materials in horizontally stacked (in series) electrolytic cells. Again, not measuring and controlling the key paramters associted with proton conduction characteristics of the plastic, the metal, and the interface, would tend to result in failure. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 22 10:05:36 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA20569; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <371F53FF.19FEF9C8 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:53:23 -0600 From: storms2 Organization: Energy K System X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The skeptical nature References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oKMds2.0.J15.kIr7t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27055 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To skeptics in general, I can sympathize with those of you who are skeptical about the CANR effect. If I had not produced anomalous tritium and heat by the process, I too would be skeptical. Besides this personal experience, I have also taken considerable time to study the published literature, to attend the ICCF conferences, and to talk to individuals who claim similar experience. In addition, I have nothing to gain by believing CANR is real - in fact just the opposite is true. In a normal field, such an effort is rewarded by being used as the basis for general belief outside of the field. Perhaps those of you who still think the effect is unproved have not read the three reviews of the field I have written. These not only show the wide range of the experience but also make a strong case against various errors which have been proposed to explain the observations. A skeptic should at least study these papers before reaching a conclusion. A skeptical nature is essential in science as well as in all aspects of life. The issue is only the degree to which this nature is applied. It is also possible and reasonable to disbelieve a claim yet not prevent the claim from being studied. Unfortunately, people who reach levels of influence in science tend to value their opinions over all others. This trait makes them strong leaders but very poor creators. We have witnessed this effect over the ages in all fields of science and we see it operating today. One would think such extreme skeptics would learn to restrain their personal certainty in view of so many examples where such strong rejection turned out to be wrong. Indeed, the issue is intellectual arrogance rather than simple difference of opinion. I have no problem with people who are uncertain, uninformed or demanding of better proof. My problem is with people who are so arrogant that they will not allow the information to be published, the studies to be funded, or conferences to be held in government facilities. Such people practice intellectual censorship while hiding behind a smoke screen of high principle. In the process they actually destroy the high ideals of science while claiming to keep them pure. Unfortunately, no amount of ranting a raving on my part will change this situation so I might as well go back to more productive work. Edmund Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 22 17:03:14 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA27520; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:58:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:58:35 -0700 Message-ID: <371FB7EC.38DDAA2 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:59:41 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Vortex-L eskimo.com" CC: "E.F. Mallove" Subject: Re: Gene on Art Bell tonight Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fchTl.0.vj6.gUx7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27056 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: April 23, 1999 Vortex, As announced, Eugene Mallove was heard on the Art Bell Show. The content ran four hours, first hour, background, second hour update to present, then next two hours for call ins. Perhaps because of ownership change of the Art Bell program, you find yourself listening to ten minutes of commercial and news first, then five minutes of commercials in mid half-hour for net program contents of five minutes and then ten minutes for each half hour segments. In other words, you listen to fifteen minutes of commercials and very short news for fifteen minutes of chopped up interview. Not good for tracking the presentation by the listening public for what Mallove had to say about CF which was presented in a non-technical language as possible (OK!? :) ). Even then, listener call-ins had questions off the track for the most part. There was one call-in from the secretary of Brokis(?) and the short conversation went well. Brokis almost lost his career path by standing up for CF and had to resort to legal remedies to retain his position from ouster movements from 'fellow' professionals. Mallove knew of the incident. Other calls were on miscellaneous energy claims without substantiation which Malove invited submissions for testing. The was even one asking about some energy device our 'Dennis Lee' was promoting on the internet. Mallove left that question open for testing. Another got a scrambled question of energy, hydrocarbons, and religion. And one individual wanted guidance on a quickie source for supplies to conduct his own 'kitchen' experiment on cf. With time too short, a quickie answer was given with not too much encouragement for the attempt. Hilly Rose, the interviewer, mentioned being impressed by the video produced by the 'Mallove Group'. Mallove mentioned Jed here and there. This video might have been the impetus given for the interview. I wonder when it will be available to the public? As for the contents of the interview segments, the background material covered tumultuous CF history to around '95 and the update from '95 to present. The present touched on CETI, Arata, Mills, George, and Case, essentially. Arthur C. Clarke was mentioned as supporter for CF up to 99+%. Under questioning about 'Gene's Bow Labs, the laboratory arcing kit availability was made known. I get the feeling that the NPR interview of Russ George might have been more concentrated in content and Mallove's interview served to continue popularizing and make CF acceptable to the lay public. It's a tough job and Dr. Eugene Mallove is continuing to plug away at it. Thanks, 'Gene! -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 22 17:39:02 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27147; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 17:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 17:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:38:01 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: This is one for Bart Simon Resent-Message-ID: <"0lcEa.0.5e6.Bvx7t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27057 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bart Simon's investigation of the sociology of the "undead" field of cold fusion IMHO can not be complete without consideration of the momentous three day debate between two physicists sponsored by the American Institute of Physics in, of all places, Washington, DC. In the text you can see a stunning philosophical implication - cold fusion is not a miracle! Such irony, that cold fusion has more credibility than miracles, than God, yet there are so many more believers in God. A three day debate of such philosophical issues gains support of the prestigious AIP, while free discussion of experimental data, techniques, and theory of cold fusion is trampled upon by government officials. What an interesting time to be alive. The full text of the AIP article follows: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News Number 424 April 20, 1999 by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein DOES GOD EXIST? This age-old question was the subject of an AAAS-sponsored symposium in Washington, DC last week. Actually, to accommodate a very ecumenical council of scientists (mostly physicists) and religious thinkers, the session organizers framed the debate in terms of three tactful "cosmic questions" (one for each day of the meeting): Did the universe have a beginning? Was the universe designed? Are we alone? The colloquy reached its dramatic climax in the matchup between John Polkinghorne of Cambridge and Steven Weinberg of Texas. Their collision of views was reminiscent of the famous Oxford debate of 1860 (sponsored by the British Association for the Advancement of Science) between biologist Thomas Huxley, staunch defender of the-then new theory of evolution, and Bishop Samuel Wilberforce, who argued that the notion of human descent from the apes was absurd. One thing, at least, has changed in 129 years. Nowadays most clerics are comfortable with the terminology and methods of modern cosmology. Indeed, Polkinghorne is (like Wilberforce) an Anglican minister and (like Weinberg) a particle physicist. Nevertheless, the surface compatibility of science and religion could not cover up the sense that the essence of the AAAS meeting lay in the atheism/theism dichotomy as exemplified by Weinberg and Polkinghorne respectively. Addressing the issue of a designed universe, Weinberg asked about the designer: Who would he be? What is his nature? Why are miracles no longer performed? "The evidence for miracles is weaker than for cold fusion," he said. Polkinghorne asserted that the idea of a cosmic designer was an unanswerable metaphysical question; metaphysics, he continued, could be constrained but not determined by science. Weinberg countered by suggesting that recent cosmological models (e.g., "eternal inflation") and certain interpretations of quantum mechanics (e.g., the "many-universes" hypothesis) demonstrated that physics, and not just metaphysics, might one day assimilate all of the above-named cosmic questions. Polkinghorne listed things that reductionist science could not account for---beauty, art, and ethics. "Consciousness is an intrinsic sign of a creator," he said. In defense of a designer-less universe, Weinberg cited a possible connection between the human disposition for beauty and the seeming symmetries of nature as manifested in the laws of physics. (For the full meeting agenda see this website: http://www.aaas.org/spp/dspp/dbsr/events/cosmo/cosmic.htm.) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 22 19:49:41 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA19676; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 19:44:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 19:44:39 -0700 Message-ID: <371FDD3D.F69FA68B earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:38:55 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" , Claytor@pnl.gov, Ron.Brodzinski pnl.gov Subject: Re: K or Cs, Cold Fusion Catalysis of D2 or H2 Molecules? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VrVUU.0.Gp4.Mwz7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27058 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Since the ground state separation of the atoms in the D2 or H2 molecules is only an angstrom or so, might it be that the CF is occurring more readily with just the molecules? This is indicated with the 500 deg Kelvin "resonance" in Case's experiments with the Pd and possibly residual Potassium in the Carbon catalyst (since the carbon is obtained from charring biomass materials which contain substantial amounts of Potassium). With this scenario if a resonant "bump" of the molecules with the alkali catalyst creates a Light Lepton (Neutrino-AntiNeutrino) Pair "in situ" on one of the atoms and thus forms a Quasi-neutron or DiNeutron, then Cold Fusion resulting in He4, Tritium, and Neutrons with much of the energy carried off by the Neutrino and/or AntiNeutrino and the electron, the heat release sans gammas can be accounted for. Too many H or D atoms, Protons, or Deuterons, and you're out of business? Which would explain why the Sun is too Hot for CF Reactions to occur, and a possible mechanism for Deuteron "Stripping". Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 22 20:10:13 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA27599; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:04:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:04:50 -0700 X-BPC-Relay-Envelope-From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au X-BPC-Relay-Envelope-To: X-BPC-Relay-Sender-Host: CPE-24-192-26-70.vic.bigpond.net.au [24.192.26.70] X-BPC-Relay-Info: Message delivered directly. From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2K: pressure units Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 03:04:45 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3721e336.275040149 mail-hub> References: <332faf8f.244c9e84 aol.com> In-Reply-To: <332faf8f.244c9e84 aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA27570 Resent-Message-ID: <"VuLZU2.0.9l6.HD-7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27059 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:58:12 EDT, Tstolper aol.com wrote: >Vince, > >How about using the international unit for pressure, the pascal? (When I was >in college, I heard about atmospheres, inches of mercury, bars and torrs. >The SI unit, the pascal, wasn't mentioned as far as I can recall, but it >seems to be the world standard now.) > >Has anyone got the conversion factors from inches of mercury to pascals and >vice versa? 1 in Hg = 3.37686E+3 Pa Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 22 22:11:12 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA28936; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:05:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:05:07 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <14c6edd7.2451595b aol.com> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 01:04:27 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: H2 Calibration To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Cujkm2.0.247.3-_7t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27060 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --------->REMINDER--CHECK THE URL IN THE REPLY TO LINE In a message dated 04/21/1999 23:01:39 Pacific Daylight Time, schaffermj yahoo.com writes: > 1. Why are you using a shunt resistor and AC voltmeter to read current? Mike, I am using the AC voltmeter/homebuilt shunt _only_ to provide a visual (analog) indication of tube current draw. You see, I was having a problem keeping the current to the tube at a constant value due to the time lag (anywhere from 2.5 to over 10 minutes) getting a reading on the watt-hour meter. The ammeter is calibrated to read from 0.5 to 3.0 amps full scale and instantly shows if tube current increases or decreases enabling me to make an on-the-spot correction. I can't do that with the watt-hour meter. > If your meter has an AC current scale, use it directly. (If your meter > doesn't, then scream at Radio Shack.) Cant use the Shack meter to monitor current. Only has bout 20% duty cycle on the ampere scale and besides, using a digital meter to just monitor if current swings up or down is a pain in the ass. > 2. You post temperature and watt numbers. You should measure the > transformer primary voltage and then subtract off the watts due to the > transformer open circuit voltage..... Yes, I agree I should be doing that but I admit to being lazy on this. Right now, since I am not doing colorimetry, I'm not interested in actual power in vs heat out. At this stage all I'm looking for is some number watts in vs heat out, first with just H2, and next, the same number watts in vs heat out with H2 and K... If there is a difference THEN I have to perform colorimetry and quantify exactly power in. BTW, actual watts in is between 2 to 4.5 according to the tests peformed with the resistor load and spark gap tests. I'm not trying to skip steps here Mike, just keeping it real simple to start. > > 3. Carbon does not melt, but it does vaporize. .... I tried carbon electrodes today, no power or temperature measurements, although I did _monitor_ input amperes (to keep the input in line with what I have been using). Thanks to Fred for this suggestion. I ran a new tube with carbon electrodes that fit tightly in the tube. Each electrode is about 1 inch in length with the business ends ground to about a 30 degree cone shape. No sharp edges on the cone end. I used #600 sandpaper to lightly break the sharp edges (I didn't want hot spots to develop). Bottom line...They worked beautifully. Nice even and stable discharge over the entire end of the electrode. And...no fouling inside the tube, even after running at full power input for over 3 hours at a H2 fill of 25.4 torr. The W electrodes would completely blackened the tube walls between the electrodes after running at low power levels after 30~40 minutes and at a high power input in less than 5 minutes. That's the good news. Now the bad.... This means I have to rerun all the H2 calibration runs with carbon electrodes. No problem as I have plenty of time and I want to get this plain H2 glow power in vs heat out done right. At least now I wont be needing to use a new tube for each run and even if the tube does foul some, automotive stores carry carbon solvent (whatever that is) which will make cleanup a snap. > > === > Michael J. Schaffer > Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 22 22:31:48 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA04025; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:27:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:27:15 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 01:26:33 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: H2 Calibration To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"UQVAq1.0.p-.pI08t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27061 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/22/1999 03:55:41 Pacific Daylight Time, fjsparber earthlink.net writes: > At any rate since Vince says that Frank Stenger suggested the carbon > rods, that leaves me off the hook if I'm wrong. LOL! :-) > > Regards, Frederick > Memory is goin fast here.....Take credit Fred...they work great! Regards, Vince From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 22 22:32:27 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA04075; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:27:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:27:22 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <123b4b14.24515e8a aol.com> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 01:26:34 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: H2 Calibration To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"ZdVeN2.0.Y_.wI08t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27062 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/22/1999 07:02:42 Pacific Daylight Time, fstenger interlaced.net writes: > Man - the worst thing about this is that I don't even remember this > suggestion!! Vince is becomming a library of my goofy ideas. :-( Sorry Frank, I sit here with much egg on face. It was Fred who passed me the suggestion and I just got you two guys mixed, probably due to both yr names initials are FS > > However, carbon electrodes + electric discharge = amino acids??? > If Vince lets any water in the tubes we may see a new life form! Heh, if I do get water in the tubes, theres gonna be a hell of a K fight > I wonder if they will look anything like me? :-) > > Frank Stenger Regards, Vince Cockeram From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 23 02:13:28 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA03426; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 02:08:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 02:08:43 -0700 Message-ID: <372037F8.F28F5A58 earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 03:06:02 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: H2K: H2 Calibration Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9mbEg3.0.Sr.RY38t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27063 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nice going Vince, Here are some equations for determining where you should get the best results: N = 2.69E19*P*To/Po*T Atoms/Molecules per cm^3 depending on Dissociation of H2 or K2 P/Po = T/To P in Torr or Microns T&To in degrees Kelvin Collision Mean Free Path (MFP) = 1/(pi)*r^2*N (about 0.82 cm at 100 microns) r is the radius of the H2 Molecule, about 1.2E-8 cm. If this is too small the molecules can't make a good hit. v = (1.38E-16*T/0.5*M)^1/2 Cm/sec ~1.6E5 cm/sec for H2 at 300 Kelvin The Number of Atoms/Molecules striking a Cm^2 in a second: = 0.25*N*v ~ 1.4E20 collisions/cm^2*sec at 100 microns & 300 Kelvin Eight Ball in the corner pocket. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 23 05:55:12 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA13095; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 05:49:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 05:49:25 -0700 Message-ID: <37206D0F.5B8FA6B3 bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 08:52:31 -0400 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gene on Art Bell tonight References: <371FB7EC.38DDAA2 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XNRa-1.0.TC3.Ln68t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27064 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Akira Kawasaki wrote: > > April 23, 1999 > > Vortex, > > As announced, Eugene Mallove was heard on the Art Bell Show. This show is accessible via the net at: http://ww2.broadcast.com/artbell/apr99.stm using RealPlayer. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 23 07:36:38 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA05623; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 07:31:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 07:31:33 -0700 MR-Received: by mta EUROPA; Relayed; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:30:33 -0400 (EDT) MR-Received: by mta GOSIP; Relayed; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:31:15 -0400 (EDT) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:20:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 Subject: RE: Wrong URL in the Reply to line In-reply-to: <3b9bd8cd.24500ec1 aol.com> To: vortex-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Posting-date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Importance: normal Priority: normal UA-content-id: E2009ZXWUF0HOD X400-MTS-identifier: [;33030132409991/3686711 ODNVMS] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"7kTaU1.0.nN1.5H88t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27065 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Somebody know what's going on? Hey Vince this is happening to me as well, it has always been like this. I am not on AOL, I am on a mail system that comes through a state agency called GOSIP. This is also happening with another listserver I am on: Y2KPower onelist.com Bill webriggs concentric.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >I sent the following to aol support. I hope this problem can be fixed. >Vince >I send mail to a listserver vortex-l eskimo.com. when my post is received by >the server it resends my post to all list members, including me. >The problem is the "REPLY TO:" line. >My posts are being resent FROM the vortex-l listserver to all members with MY >URL (vcockeram aol.com) in the REPLY TO line. The listservers URL should be >there, NOT mine. It was working up to about 3 weeks ago and suddenly changed. >This is a great inconvenience to the list members as when they post a reply >to my posting it is supposed to go to the listserver, not directly to me, and >if a list member does not notice the REPLY TO line URL the members post comes >to me instead of the group. >This is only happening to AOL members so it's NOT a problem with the >Vortex listserver software. >Please help as this is very annoying to me and my group members. >. >Regards >Vince Cockeram >Las Vegas >702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 23 09:29:00 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA12037; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:21:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:21:47 -0700 Message-Id: <199904231616.MAA25913 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Gene on Art Bell tonight Date: Fri, 23 Apr 99 12:20:36 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"inkbH.0._x2.Qu98t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27066 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Akira wrote: >Hilly Rose, the interviewer, mentioned being impressed by the video >produced by the 'Mallove Group'. Mallove mentioned Jed here and there. >This video might have been the impetus given for the interview. No, they just called me out of the blue. I sent Hilly a special copy from my master. The VIP journalists will be getting their tapes beginning next week -- the ones that come in the spiffy color boxes like you find on professional tapes in video stores. > I wonder >when it will be available to the public? It is available right now. We have ordered 5,000 copies, 500 of which will be in Bow next Tuesday, and some of which need to be sold at the COFE meeting in Maryland, April 28-May 1. However, anyone placing an order now will likely have their copy sent out within 7 days of the order. The other 4500 opcies should follow pretty quickly. We'll have 500 PAL format tapes very soon too. > >I get the feeling that the NPR interview of Russ George might have been >more concentrated in content and Mallove's interview served to continue >popularizing and make CF acceptable to the lay public. It's a tough job >and Dr. Eugene Mallove is continuing to plug away at it. Thanks, 'Gene! You are quite welcome. It's always fun to talk to the nation in the wee hours of the morning. We got some 5,000 hits in one day above and beyond the usual hits to our www site. Lots of new subscribers adn tape orederers, including lots of excellent open-minded professors in many fields, especially in medicine and biology. > >-AK- Gene - a very tired guy! > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 23 14:18:08 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA28660; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:12:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:12:50 -0700 Message-ID: <3720E195.16F0E022 earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:09:42 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Cold Fusion on Jupiter? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eQjQn2.0.k_6.I9E8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27067 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Jupiter's anomalous output of 70% more Infrared heat than it recieves from the sun coupled with it's Deuterium/Hydrogen Ratio of 2.5E-5 suggests that CF is occuring in it's atmosphere. Since Hydrogen is the most abundant element in it's atmosphere and about 8 times it's Helium , Might be? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 23 15:38:09 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA19684; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:30:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:30:27 -0700 Message-ID: <3720F39F.7434CC2 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 01:26:39 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Cut-off free finite zero-point vacuum energy... (gr-qc/9904056) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"297G63.0.Np4.2IF8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27068 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9904056 Regards, hamdi ucar General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract gr-qc/9904056 From: "N.Kumar" Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:47:59 GMT (6kb) Cut-off free finite zero-point vacuum energy and the cosmological missing mass problem Author: N. Kumar (Raman Research Institute, Bangalore, India) Comments: 5 pages, Latex, no figures Journal ref: MNRAS As the mass-energy is universally self-gravitating, the gravitational binding energy must be subtracted self-consistently from its bare mass value so as to give the physical gravitational mass. Such a self-consistent gravitational self-energy correction can be made non-perturbatively by the use of a gravitational `charging' technique, where we calculate the incremental change $dm$ of the physical mass of the cosmological object, of size $r_o$ due to the accretion of a bare mass $dM$, corresponding to the gravitational coupling-in of the successive zero-point vacuum modes, i.e., of the Casimir energy, whose bare value $\Sigma_{\bf k} \hbar ck$ is infinite. Integrating the `charging' equation, $dm = dM - (3\alpha/5)Gm\Delta M/r_o c^2$, we get a gravitational mass for the cosmological object that remains finite even in the limit of the infinite zero-point vacuum energy, i.e., without any ultraviolet cut-off imposed. Here $\alpha$ is a geometrical factor of order unity. Also, setting $r_o = c/H$, the Hubble length, we get the corresponding cosmological density parameter $\Omega \simeq 1$, without any adjustable parameter. The cosmological significance of this finite and unique contribution of the otherwise infinite zero-point vacuum energy to the density parameter can hardly be overstated. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 23 17:31:19 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA22285; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:24:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:24:43 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3720E195.16F0E022 earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:22:46 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Cold Fusion on Jupiter? Resent-Message-ID: <"VqcFA3.0.7S5.AzG8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27069 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >To: Vortex > >Jupiter's anomalous output of 70% more Infrared heat than it recieves >from the sun ***{It is not unusual for an object to emit more energy in the infrared band than it receives in that band. (Put a glass of water in your microwave and zap it for awhile. When you take it out, you will discover that it emits primarily in the infrared, even though the input energy was in the microwave band.) Therefore, are you saying that Jupiter is emitting more energy in the infrared band than the total amount it is receiving from *all* sources? If so, by what reasoning was this conclusion reached? Did you merely calculate the amount of solar energy that would be available at Jupiter's orbital radius, for example? If so, you should consider other factors--to wit: massive tidal effects from Jupiter's moons and from the sun, as well as continuous bombardment by asteroids, comets, meteors, and space dust. Such sources have the potential to impart mind boggling amounts of seemingly "excess" energy to the planet every year, and this is where I suggest you focus your analytical efforts. (A simple explanation is always to be preferred, if it can be made to work.) --Mitchell Jones}*** coupled with it's Deuterium/Hydrogen Ratio of 2.5E-5 >suggests that CF is occuring in it's atmosphere. > >Since Hydrogen is the most abundant element in it's atmosphere and >about 8 times it's Helium , Might be? > >Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 23 18:15:32 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA00286; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:11:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:11:16 -0700 Message-ID: <3721356C.A181B12C sunherald.infi.net> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:07:24 -0700 From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cold Fusion on Jupiter? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7zaG41.0.L4.qeH8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27070 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > ***{It is not unusual for an object to emit more energy in the infrared > band than it receives in that band. (Put a glass of water in your microwave > and zap it for awhile. When you take it out, you will discover that it > emits primarily in the infrared, even though the input energy was in the > microwave band.) Yes, but Jupiter puts out more total energy than it recieves. The Voyager I and II probes found this. It is thought to be caused from gravitational collapse of the planet, still cooling off from its early days, when it was much hotter. If it is caused by cold fusion, I wouldn't be surprised...not in this crazy universe. ;) Kyle R. Mcallister From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 23 19:46:50 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA16990; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:42:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:42:39 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3721356C.A181B12C sunherald.infi.net> References: Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:40:53 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Cold Fusion on Jupiter? Resent-Message-ID: <"75SaC1.0.O94.V-I8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27071 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> ***{It is not unusual for an object to emit more energy in the infrared >> band than it receives in that band. (Put a glass of water in your microwave >> and zap it for awhile. When you take it out, you will discover that it >> emits primarily in the infrared, even though the input energy was in the >> microwave band.) > >Yes, but Jupiter puts out more total energy than it recieves. The >Voyager I and II probes found this. It is thought to be caused from >gravitational collapse of the planet, still cooling off from its early >days, when it was much hotter. If it is caused by cold fusion, I >wouldn't be surprised...not in this crazy universe. ;) > >Kyle R. Mcallister ***{A space probe merely collects data. Once the data are collected, humans apply mathematical reasoning to decide whether energy in is greater than energy out, and in the process they must invariably go beyond the data by employing educated guesses about the magnitudes of some of the more difficult-to-measure inputs. In the present case, the amount of energy imparted to Jupiter by the space debris that it sweeps up falls into the "educated guess" category. I would be far more prone to bump up the estimated quantity of incoming space debris to cover the discrepancy between energy in and energy out, than to employ an ad hoc assumption about "gravitational collapse" to deal with it--unless, of course, there was some reason to think Jupiter is undergoing gravitational collapse which has nothing to do with the energy balance. After all, we know for a fact that the planet is sweeping up massive quantities of space debris, and we know it independently of whether its energy balance is out of whack. Do we also have reasons to think it is gravitationally collapsing that are independent of the energy balance issue? --Mitchell Jones}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 23 20:37:30 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA04558; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:33:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:33:00 -0700 Message-ID: <19990424033333.13547.rocketmail web125.yahoomail.com> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:33:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: H2K: H2 Calibration To: Vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"lftHl3.0.771.ijJ8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27073 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram aol.com wrote: >I tried carbon electrodes today, no power or temperature measurements, >[snip] >Bottom line...They worked beautifully. Nice even and stable discharge >over the entire end of the electrode. And...no fouling inside the tube, >even after running at full power input for over 3 hours at a H2 fill of >25.4 torr. I'm glad to learn that my fears of carbon deposits were unfounded. === Michael J. Schaffer _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 23 20:38:55 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA04193; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:32:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:32:44 -0700 Message-ID: <37213AB6.DF4B1FDC earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:29:59 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Potassium-Activated Carbon Catalyst with H2 or D2 Cheap! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cbHlL1.0.N11.SjJ8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27072 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Activated Carbon (Charcoal) can be obtained at any store carrying Aquarium Supplies for about $7.00 per pound for the higher quality material. These should have a surface area of 500 to 1,000 square meters per/gram. A pressure capsule can be made with a 3/4 inch pipe nipple about 3 inches long with caps (not to be used as a pipe bomb). :-( About 18 grams of a D2O or H2O K2CO3 solution soaked into the charcoal and at least 50 grams of Aluminum or Magnesium wool, powder, or filings mixed with the charcoal and packed into the capsule will act as a "getter" for the Oxygen and Nitrogen. Figure 18,000 PSI Hydrogen Pressure for each Cubic Centimeter of capsule for each gram of Hydrogen in the H20, so if you have 18 cubic centimeters of void volume in the capsule (including the charcoal void volume) the pressure will be 1,000 PSI, etc. When this is heated UNDER CAREFUL CONDITIONS to about 800 F the Reaction: D2O or H2O + K2CO3 + Al or Mg + Charcoal -----> D2 or H2 + 2K + C + Al2O3 or MgO Resulting in either an EXPLOSION or a Case-George type CF device that should stay hot for weeks. :-) WITH SAFETY DISCLAIMER! Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 23 23:04:29 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA10937; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 22:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 22:57:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BPC-Relay-Envelope-From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au X-BPC-Relay-Envelope-To: X-BPC-Relay-Sender-Host: CPE-24-192-26-70.vic.bigpond.net.au [24.192.26.70] X-BPC-Relay-Info: Message delivered directly. From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Energy Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 05:55:59 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <37235c48.79312400 mail-hub> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id WAA10889 Resent-Message-ID: <"xXsxj3.0.ig2.MrL8t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27074 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Is it possible that the sustained growth in the US economy over the last years is due to secret introduction of ZPE based technology as a replacement for fossil fuels in some power stations? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 24 01:00:16 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA24670; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 00:55:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 00:55:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3721798E.E0520D50 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 00:58:07 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Schaffer , "Vortex-L eskimo.com" Subject: General Atomics & Cold Fusion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wfdWu3.0.O16.9aN8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27075 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: April 24, 1999 Michael, Eugene Mallove, commenting on the NPR Science Friday program of April 16, 1999(fri), identified you as connected with General Atomics. I find > the "hotbed" :) of Tokamak and fusion related activities. I had a very small inkling of General Atomics' nuclear activities in the past. I do know of General Dynamics as being very much in the Defense business now and past. I thank you for consenting to appear in the Science Friday show with Russ George and Ira Flatow. I have yet to receive the ordered transcripts of the interview so I do not know what was said then but: What is your personal reaction, separate from General Atomics, of the specific helium findings of the George replication effort of the Case Cell? I believe Case was claiming 'excess heat' whereas, George approached the experiment primarily from helium nuclear ash content. Does the results indicate something worthy of looking into beyond struggling individual or small group financing efforts. Does it indicate research and development needs more on a national scale of funding and combined research talents. And something that General Atomics should look into for fusion effects other than plasma fusion - only. I understand Tokamaks uses very high vacuum technology for plasma effects and your recent comments on vacuum on the vortex seems to indicate your involvement with the Tokamak. I have been looking into vacuum systms recently so your vacuum comments 'clicked'. My apologies if I am intruding upon 'sensitive' areas and you are constrained. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 24 01:31:39 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA30036; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 01:28:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 01:28:04 -0700 Message-ID: <3721812A.CCF9C4E0 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 01:30:35 -0700 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Vortex-L eskimo.com" Subject: Arthur C. Clarke Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"h8LrK3.0.EL7.J2O8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27076 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: April 24, 1999 Vortex, Continuing on the NPR Science Friday topic. I fowarded the notice of the interview sent by George to several addresses he did not include. Since Sir Arthur C. Clarke was such a strong supporter of the cold fusion discovery, I included him, still being sensitive not to intrude on his privacy (he does have a website though). He responded to the notice inquirying both I and Flatow about the results of the interview since he wanted to update his comments on cold fusion on a revised edition of one of his books. In turn, I fowarded Eugene Mallove's positive comments on the interview. He knows 'Gene and Jed well. It turns out that he also sent a very nice letter to Russ George and told him that VIPs were contacted of the cold fusion interview. It's nice to have such allies pushing for cold fusion. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 24 08:03:36 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA07938; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 07:58:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 07:58:46 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <44f81711.245335f4 aol.com> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 10:57:56 EDT Subject: Re: Wrong URL in the Reply to line To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"qFGi71.0.yx1.cmT8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27077 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/23/1999 07:35:12 Pacific Daylight Time, MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov writes: > Somebody know what's going on? > Hey Vince this is happening to me as well, it has always been like this. > I am not on AOL, I am on a mail system that comes through a state agency > called GOSIP. This is also happening with another listserver I am on: > Y2KPower onelist.com > Bill > webriggs concentric.net Reply by Vince: I spoke with aol support...this is the response...and an additional note from me...This problem started on April 1st. I posted 3 messages that day, the first two, posted at 0915 and 0935 had the correct Reply To address. The third post at 1705 had my url in the Reply To line and all posts since then have been fouled. Wonder what Mr Beattys ISP is up to? Vince Las Vegas This is AOL reply to my call this morning: Subj: List server Date: 04/23/1999 09:16:29 Pacific Daylight Time From: CRReardon aol.com To: VCockeram I was the tech (Chris) you spoke with today about the issue with the list server. I just received a response from the people who handle email problem reports, this is a direct cut and paste from the email they sent me: > Hi, >Unfortunately, I am not able help you with this issue. It does not appear to be a host >related problem. This conclusion was reached because of one or more of the >following: > >This is a listserv outside of AOL the member will need to contact the owner of the >list serv. > >If you feel I am missing something, please FORWARD this mail back to me and >provide as much information as you can about the problem. I will be happy to look at >it again. > >Thanks and best regards, > >Mike So they think that it's going to be from the server side. Let me know what they respond with, and depending on what the server people say, I can send something back to him. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 24 08:22:49 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15287; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 08:17:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 08:17:51 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 10:58:46 EDT Subject: The EHD-Engine v1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 144 Reply-To: JNaudin509 aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"FdQGP.0.dk3.U2U8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27078 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear All, I have updated my web site with a very interesting device, the EHD-Engine v1.0. The purpose of the EHD-Engine v1.0 is to generate a thrust along its main axis, it can be used as a thruster for propulsion. The EHD-Engine is a part of my ARDA project and it will be used in my future Advanced EHD Propulsion Aircraft (AEPA). When the High Voltage is applied on the EHD-Engine v1.0, the device moves forward by itself SILENTLY at high speed. The resulting thrust is undeniable (see the video below). The EHD-Engine v1.0 is a simple demonstrator but it shows that the EHD propulsion is now a reality.... You will find all pictures and video about this device at : http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/delany/256/html/ehdev1.htm Best Regards, Jean-Louis Naudin Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com Overunity Web site: http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 24 09:38:38 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA03202; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:32:19 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 12:30:23 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: H2 Calibration To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"1fdq33.0.yn.H8V8t" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27079 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, I spent Friday modifying the vacuum system _attempting_ to add a differential vacuum gauge between the pump vacuum and reactor tube vacuum sections of the manifold...Not good at all. The differential gauge is much too sensitive ( +0.5-0-0.5 in. H2O), and the additional plumbing introduces many areas of potential (and real) leaks. I am going to remove the gauge and reinstall it on my air conditioning system as it was, a filter monitor and seal off the two 1/8 inch holes in the vacuum manifold. Then will move forward with calibrating the tube, this time with the carbon electrode configuration. Frederick had also suggested a manometer (water or oil) as a differential gauge but I think too much risk of contamination getting sucked into the tube and also the fact that at the low pressures I run at, water boils at room temperature. BTW, when I had the vacuum manifold down yesterday for modifications, I hooked it up to an old diaphragm type vacuum pump and sucked alcohol through the system to flush it out. I did this outside in my driveway. With the initial flush of alcohol an enormous quantity of white smoke ( I avoided breathing it) blew out of the pump exhaust, probably residue K reacting with the small amount of H2O in the alcohol? I flushed thoroughly using about a gallon of alcohol and it was pumping through nice and clean at the end. Spring cleaning? I then sealed up the system and pumped hard vacuum overnight to get it nice and dry. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 24 13:20:06 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA19048; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 13:14:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 13:14:08 -0700 X-BPC-Relay-Envelope-From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au X-BPC-Relay-Envelope-To: X-BPC-Relay-Sender-Host: CPE-24-192-26-70.vic.bigpond.net.au [24.192.26.70] X-BPC-Relay-Info: Message delivered directly. From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Potassium-Activated Carbon Catalyst with H2 or D2 Cheap! Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 20:13:43 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <372225a2.130866542 mail-hub> References: <37213AB6.DF4B1FDC earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <37213AB6.DF4B1FDC earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA19020 Resent-Message-ID: <"ABfI53.0.Yf4.FOY8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27080 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:29:59 -0600, Frederick Sparber wrote: While an interesting idea, the Pd is missing, so this is more related to Mills than Case-George. >To: Vortex > >Activated Carbon (Charcoal) can be obtained at any store carrying >Aquarium Supplies for about $7.00 per pound for the higher quality >material. These should have a surface area of 500 to 1,000 square meters >per/gram. > >A pressure capsule can be made with a 3/4 inch pipe nipple about 3 >inches long with caps (not to be used as a pipe bomb). :-( > >About 18 grams of a D2O or H2O K2CO3 solution soaked into the charcoal >and at least 50 grams of Aluminum or Magnesium wool, powder, or filings >mixed with the charcoal and packed into >the capsule will act as a "getter" for the Oxygen and Nitrogen. > >Figure 18,000 PSI Hydrogen Pressure for each Cubic Centimeter of >capsule for each gram of Hydrogen in the H20, so if you have 18 cubic >centimeters of void volume in the capsule (including the charcoal void >volume) the pressure will be 1,000 PSI, etc. > >When this is heated UNDER CAREFUL CONDITIONS to about 800 F the >Reaction: > >D2O or H2O + K2CO3 + Al or Mg + Charcoal -----> D2 or H2 + 2K + C + >Al2O3 or MgO > >Resulting in either an EXPLOSION or a Case-George type CF device that >should stay hot for weeks. :-) > >WITH SAFETY DISCLAIMER! > >Regards, Frederick > Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 24 18:46:12 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA09892; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 18:41:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 18:41:14 -0700 Message-ID: <372271BA.7870F560 earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 19:36:59 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re:Potassium Activated Carbon Catalyst with H2 or D2 Cheap? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BJ74k2.0.UQ2.vAd8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27081 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin wrote: Snip > Don't you mean Mills rather than Case-George? > Bottom line, either one, but, with H2O or D2O in a pressure vessel at 170 C to 277 C at a pressure range of 100 PSIG to 1260 PSIG with Pd nanoparticles and/or K2CO3 "dissolved" in it, you would have as many H2 or D2 molecules colliding as you would with a H2 or D2 gas at about 18,300 PSIG. :-) On top of that you would have 306 to 540 BTU/LB stored up in the water plus the heat stored in a pressure vessel (a CO2 Fire Extinguisher or Small O2 Gas Bottle would do). Then stick it in an oven set at "Bake" for a few hours then drop it in an insulated water tank for calorimetry and see if it went OU. :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 24 21:48:33 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA19616; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 21:41:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 21:41:57 -0700 From: tv juno.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 21:40:32 -0700 Subject: Re: Weird Transformer Effects Message-ID: <19990424.214039.-479261.0.tv juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-3,5,7,9-14,18-19,24-25,27-30,34-56 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZmP552.0.Mo4.Kqf8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27082 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:21:49 +1200 John Berry writes: >Never the less this reminds me of that coral castle guy (don't make me >spell his name) who magnetized a (soft I assume) iron ring with a coil >around it (I guess he did that by applying current to the coil briefly), when the >flux path was broken even after years there would be a pulse in the coil >indicating that the flux had stayed in the soft iron ring even though there was >nothing to perpetuate it. > > >John Berry This is the same as the principle of the older style computer core memories that used small ferrite donuts. The donuts were magnetized by a wire going through the center. A second wire was used to read the magnetism. These memories were nonvolatile. A donut is like a soft iron horseshoe magnet with a "keeper". As long as there is a magnetic circuit, an induced magnetism is preserved. Electromagnetic solenoids with "E" or "C" shaped cores include small air gaps to prevent a magnetic circuit from forming. This prevents the armature from getting stuck. The magnetism is preserved in a soft iron or ferrite ring because the head to tail alignment of the spins and domains. It is possible to store a very substantial magnetic field in a ring core. A question I have wondered about is this: Is the energy you can recover from the collapse of the internal magnetic field of the ring always less than the work required to break or redirect the magnetic circuit so that it can collapse ? Tim ( tv juno.com ) > >Cornwall RO wrote: > >> Hamdi, >> >> the penny has dropped. I get you now. With 1:1 the whole 4 port >looks like >> a two port, the leads go straight thru' as if there is no >transformer >> there... >> >> I'll need to sleep on this though. >> Remi. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 24 23:44:08 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA05572; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 23:39:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 23:39:41 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990425064636.016eff40 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 02:46:36 -0400 To: JNaudin509 aol.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: The EHD-Engine v1.0 Resent-Message-ID: <"fQYJF3.0.zM1.iYh8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27083 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:58 AM 4/24/99 EDT, JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: >Dear All, > >I have updated my web site with a very interesting device, the EHD-Engine >v1.0. >The purpose of the EHD-Engine v1.0 is to generate a thrust along its main >axis, it can be used as a thruster for propulsion. The EHD-Engine is a part >of my ARDA project and it will be used in my future Advanced EHD Propulsion >Aircraft (AEPA). > >When the High Voltage is applied on the EHD-Engine v1.0, the device moves >forward by itself SILENTLY at high speed. The resulting thrust is undeniable >(see the video below). > >The EHD-Engine v1.0 is a simple demonstrator but it shows that the EHD >propulsion is now a reality.... > >You will find all pictures and video about this device at : >http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/delany/256/html/ehdev1.htm If one downloaded and installed the Dreamland browser, one could log on to Dreamland VR. One could then go to JohnBro's museum and see photos of supposed UFOs. JohnBro thinks the translucent bulges seen on the vehicles to be solid parts of the ships. I think that they are plasma structures that propel the ship. An understanding of the plasma blob phenomenon is essential. Perhaps, once a plasma phenomenon is started, it maybe possible to sustain such a structure even though atmospheric conditions may at first, not be conducive to such a state. At any rate, I believe that these plasmoid structures are more easily created in a vacuum hv electrode discharge type experiment. I used a variac attached to AC and DC neon transformers. The frequency signiture would of course be 60 hz. Electrode pairs have a resonant frequency when plasma current flows through determined by dimensional constants of the electrodes (seperation, size, shape etc.), conductor characteristics (vacuum level, gas composition, temperature, etc). One might argue that DC power supplies should have no output ripple. I question if this is easily done when discharging across electrodes. Assuming a frequency component exists, and that the electrode resonant frequency is tuned to this power supply ripple, vacuum level can provide the adjustability to tune the electrode resonant frequency. So for a given power supply setting (that's at least able to jump the gap at maximum vacuum level) one can slowly pump the vacuum level of the electrode belljar from atmospheric pressure to optimum vacuum for maximum plasma phenomenon of a given electrode configuration. The resonant frequency of the electrode pair is thus swept through the bandwidth that the power supply is set at by the vacuum process. First you should see the plasma blobs and how they relate to asymmetrical electrode shape. Let us know if the plasmoids have anything to do with the Biefeld-Brown effect. This is kind of a core dump on this issue in case I don't come back from an upcoming trip. Dennis Circle Of Fire - Dreamland - VR Avatars! Great Fun! http://www.artbellchatclub.com Unified Field Art http://pw1.netcom.com/~atech/UFA1.JPG From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 24 23:59:09 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA09669; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 23:54:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 23:54:09 -0700 Message-ID: <3722BB7C.69290BFB ihug.co.nz> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 18:51:44 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Weird Transformer Effects References: <19990424.214039.-479261.0.tv juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vh66W2.0.wM2.Gmh8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27084 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes, another thing I found is that steel wire used for fencing, if you get many meters of this stuff, at one end place a magnet, at the other end have someone with a needle or something to detect the field, it will conduct down many meters of wire, indeed I never found it to stop. tv juno.com wrote: > On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:21:49 +1200 John Berry > writes: > >Never the less this reminds me of that coral castle guy (don't make me > >spell his name) who magnetized a (soft I assume) iron ring with a coil > >around it (I guess he did that by applying current to the coil briefly), > when the > >flux path was broken even after years there would be a pulse in the coil > > >indicating that the flux had stayed in the soft iron ring even though > there was > >nothing to perpetuate it. > > > > > >John Berry > > This is the same as the principle of the older style computer core > memories that used small ferrite donuts. The donuts were magnetized by a > wire going through the center. A second wire was used to read the > magnetism. These memories were nonvolatile. > > A donut is like a soft iron horseshoe magnet with a "keeper". As long > as there is a magnetic circuit, an induced magnetism is preserved. > Electromagnetic solenoids with "E" or "C" shaped cores include small air > gaps to prevent a magnetic circuit from forming. This prevents the > armature from getting stuck. > > The magnetism is preserved in a soft iron or ferrite ring because the > head to tail alignment of the spins and domains. > > It is possible to store a very substantial magnetic field in a ring core. > > A question I have wondered about is this: Is the energy you can recover > from the collapse of the internal magnetic field of the ring always less > than the work required to break or redirect the magnetic circuit so that > it can collapse ? > > Tim > ( tv juno.com ) > > > > >Cornwall RO wrote: > > > >> Hamdi, > >> > >> the penny has dropped. I get you now. With 1:1 the whole 4 port > >looks like > >> a two port, the leads go straight thru' as if there is no > >transformer > >> there... > >> > >> I'll need to sleep on this though. > >> Remi. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 25 00:45:20 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA16778; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 00:40:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 00:40:45 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990425074744.0170a7f8 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 03:47:44 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: Cold Fusion on Jupiter? Resent-Message-ID: <"XlkMJ3.0.464.yRi8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27085 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:09 PM 4/23/99 -0600, you wrote: >To: Vortex > >Jupiter's anomalous output of 70% more Infrared heat than it recieves >from the sun coupled with it's Deuterium/Hydrogen Ratio of 2.5E-5 >suggests that CF is occuring in it's atmosphere. > >Since Hydrogen is the most abundant element in it's atmosphere and >about 8 times it's Helium , Might be? Here's an analysis of the excess infrared emission phenomenon of Jupiter: http://www.enterprisemission.com/hyper1.html Dennis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 25 00:55:59 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA18224; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 00:51:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 00:51:28 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990425075826.016aac1c popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 03:58:26 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: Gene on Art Bell tonight Resent-Message-ID: <"r5m2r1.0.gS4.0ci8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27086 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:59 PM 4/22/99 -0700, you wrote: >The was even one asking >about some energy device our 'Dennis Lee' was promoting on the internet. Please let it be known that Dennis C. Lee is a different person than the Dennis Lee referred to above. Dennis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 25 01:03:49 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA19601; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 00:59:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 00:59:10 -0700 Message-ID: <3722CABA.BEDD40E5 ihug.co.nz> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 19:56:44 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gene on Art Bell tonight References: <1.5.4.32.19990425075826.016aac1c popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jT3wP.0.Bo4.Eji8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27087 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dennis, if you don't know who you are how do we? No of course your not Dennis Lee (of better world ripoffs). "Dennis C. Lee" wrote: > At 04:59 PM 4/22/99 -0700, you wrote: > >The was even one asking > >about some energy device our 'Dennis Lee' was promoting on the internet. > > Please let it be known that Dennis C. Lee is a different person than the > Dennis Lee referred to above. > > Dennis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 25 01:48:25 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA23831; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 01:43:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 01:43:46 -0700 Message-ID: <3722D4F0.3351ED21 earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 02:40:18 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Potassium Activated Carbon Catalyst with H2 or D2 Cheap? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0_Loh3.0.Aq5.2Nj8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27088 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Another approach Robin: You can flood the G-75 Pd-on-Carbon catalyst, or a home-brew Activated Carbon (HBAC) (available for about $7.00/lb from stores that sell aquarium supplies) with an H2O or D2O solution of KOH or K2CO3 in a pressure vessel and run it at 170 C to 277 C. Higher temperatures will promote hydrolysis of the carbon to CO2 and H2 or D2. This is the approach used to hydrolyze biomass and fossil fuels to synthesis gases. An alumina supported Pd catalyst in a pressure vessel can also be flooded with a solution of the highly soluble potassium aluminate made by heating aluminum or alumina in molten or aqueous KOH. A trick used to recover Pt & Pd from automotive catalytic converters. :-) But, I think if you make the Aqueous Potassium Aluminate solution first, the attack of the alumina will be minimal. In either case, a Capped Stainless Steel or Nickel "Pipe" should serve as a pressure vessel, and using Differential Thermal Analysis (DTA) you should be able to determine if there is an Exotherm when the vessel is heated to 170 C -277C in an autoclave. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 25 01:55:31 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA25510; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 01:50:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 01:50:56 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990425085751.016f8d48 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 04:57:51 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: Fwd: Two paragraphs from Russ George Resent-Message-ID: <"nmENj.0.WE6.lTj8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27089 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:50 AM 4/21/99 -0700, you wrote: > > >April 21, 1999 > >Vortex: > >This is a permitted fowarding of two paragraphs from Russ George. This follows the >relaying of Jed's suggestion to Scott of going to SRI with his calorimeter. > >-ak- > >> As for Little going to SRI I don't understand this. He is just blustering and >> bragging surely he doesn't think his puny incompetence holds a candle to the >> expertise of McKubre and Tanzella. One thing is for certain those two guys are >> probably amongst the best calorimetrists in the world. Scott's garage style >> device and braggadacio is ridiculous in comparison. He's just trying to get in >> to steal whatever know how he can steal and give himself some kind of >> credibility. Same old story. I thought one was supposed to be advanced enough to be able to afford such incidents of betrayal with negligable negative effects. >>He's also likely simply trying to impose the infamous "Little >> Effect" on those experiments. The thrill I would get out of seeing a ThermoCAM (non contact, nondestructive) system work for CF is the idea of an existing calorimetry system that's perfect for a particular application after reading the amount of bellyaching that went on with a 'destructive' measurement system of past times. I guess you call that boredom. The 'proof of measurement system application accuracy' tests should be at no charge. I think the only thing required for a ThermoCAM workstation calorimetry application test is working CF apparatus. Dennis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 25 02:47:20 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA24315; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 02:42:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 02:42:28 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990425094933.017033b8 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 05:49:33 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: Re: Gene on Art Bell tonight Resent-Message-ID: <"Tug9E1.0.rx5.4Ek8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27090 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:56 PM 4/25/99 +1200, you wrote: >Dennis, if you don't know who you are how do we? No of course your not Dennis >Lee (of better world ripoffs). I think I'm the only person in the world (insanely?) honest enough, and possibly in the position to, get the new technology 'approved' (accepted?) and thus save the world (is there any question that the world needs to be rescued?). Of course this is crazy and impossible because after all, who the heck do I think I am anyways? BTW, I would not label Better World Technologies a 'rip off' so much as perhaps at the moment 'unapproved'. Hopefully, the following data (from physicsweb.org) will somehow be recognized and made aware to those who decide such issues of 'approval'. _______________________________________________________________________________ Global warming confirmed from space [Friday August 14] Differences in the temperature of the earth's atmosphere as measured by satellites and ground-based instruments have puzzled scientists for years, and caused some politicians to doubt the reality of global warming. Now, however, calculations by Frank Wentz and Matthias Schabel of Remote Sensing Systems in California have shown that small decays in >>>>>>>>>> the orbit of satellites may have caused the discrepancy (Nature 394 661). Previously satellite measurements have suggested that the atmosphere was cooling at 0.05 Kelvin per decade, while ground-based instruments showed an increase of 0.13 Kelvin per decade. However, as polar satellites orbit the Earth, they suffer atmospheric drag. The thickness and height of the Earth's atmosphere is dependent on the sun's solar activity. When solar activity is at a maximum, ultraviolet rays from the sun heat the upper atmosphere. This causes the atmosphere to expand outwards, which increases the drag experienced by satellites. Wentz and Schabel calculated that this caused the orbits of polar satellites operated by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) in the US to decay by 1.2 km per year over a 17 year period. They also discovered that the Microwave Sounding Unit (MSU) used to measure the troposphere temperature >>>>>>>>>> profile is very sensitive to height fluctuations. By developing a correction factor for the instrument, they were able to re-evaluate the satellite data. They found that the instrument now measured a temperature rise of 0.07 Kelvin per decade instead of the previously reported fall. This new figure is similar to results predicted by computer climate models and explains why the satellites had seen increased cooling in the troposphere during periods of increased solar activity in 1979-83 and 1989-92. Humans are the cause of climate change [Thursday November 26] The controversy over the relative contributions of greenhouse gas emissions and solar activity to global warming appears to have been resolved. Tom Wigley, Richard Smith and Benjamin Santer in the US contrasted global meteorological temperature data gathered over the past 115 years with results from two leading computer models. They found that the best fit to the data occurred when this century's 0.6 C global temperature rise is assumed to >>>>>>>>>> have been caused mainly by mankind's output of greenhouse gases (Science 282 1676). The team looked in particular for 'lag time' effects in the data. For example, the eruption of Mt Pinatubo in the Philippines in 1991 lowered the global temperature by 0.3 C in the following year as fine aerosols of volcanic ash and sulphuric acid caused a cooling effect. However, the team believes that volcanic eruptions have a short lived effect on the long-term temperature. They therefore looked at two possible variables that could adjust climate - greenhouse gases and changes in the sun's output. Wigley and colleagues ran the two independent computer models four times, each time with a different set of parameters. In the first data set, they created a world in which greenhouse gases remained constant over 100 years and changes in solar output do not affect the climate. In the second set they assumed that the Earth's climate can be affected by solar output - called solar forcing - but greenhouse gases remain constant. The third set had no solar output, but greenhouse gases rise over time. Finally the fourth set had a mixture of both solar forcing and rising levels of greenhouse gases. They first found that there was wide discrepancies between the output of both computer models and the experimental data in the first data set. This indicated that some mechanism was increasing the global temperature this century. Then they found that if solar heating was solely responsible for climate change, the Earth's climate would have to be six times more sensitive to solar heating than realistic estimates suggest. Wigley, Smith and Santer concluded that unlike a paper published in Physical Review Letters this week (see CERN plans global-warming >>>>>>>>>> experiment), the only model that matched both simulation and experimental data sets was the one containing a strong greenhouse gas effect and a small amount of solar heating. According to Wigley: "These results provide another important piece in the jigsaw puzzle of climate change, >>>>>>>>>> strengthening yet further our confidence that there has been a discernible human influence on climate. Furthermore, they provide additional evidence that the models used to make projections of future climate change are realistic." ________________________________________________________________________________ Dennis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 25 05:38:39 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA07366; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 05:33:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 05:33:49 -0700 Message-ID: <002801be8f17$c33b0f40$4d5accd1 default> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Wierd Transformer Effects Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 08:32:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"uTxj_3.0.0p1.jkm8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27091 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Recent discussion refers to effects which are normal, not weird. There are few truly "soft" magnetic materials which, in a closed toroidal form, will retain zero magnetism once magnetized. Mumetal is an alloy used for transformer cores and shielding boxes which has very high permeability and very low, but not zero, remnance. Most ordinary steels will retain some magnetism unless demagnetized by a specific technique which subjects the material to a slowly diminishing AC field. A C-I form of core can be magnetized and the magnetism will remain indefinitely. A coil around the core will sense a pulse decades later if the magnetic circuit is disturbed by removing the I-form keeper. You can replace the keeper and get another, lesser pulse, and remove it again and get another, again lesser. No OU effects, it comes out of the mechanical energy involved in opening and closing the gap. According to Harold Aspden, magnetism is one of the gateways to aether energy and the proper place to go is his Website . Look in the tutorials, where he describes some simple experiments with magnetism which clearly indicate the presence of OU effects. Memory cores are made of deliberately "hard" materials with high remnance. There are three wires through each core in a memory plane. Simultaneous current through two, forming an X-Y addressing grid, can change the direction of magnetization. The third wire senses changes in magnetic state. If a core is in the '1' state and the addressing pulses force the core to the '0' state, a pulse appears on the sense wire, which snakes through all cores in the plane. If the core was already in the '0' state, no pulse appears. If you just wanted to read the state of the core, you have to change it back to a '1' state before the next operation. Mike Carrell Air gaps are included in many transformer designs to linearize the transfer function. Most magnetic materials have a nonlinear relationship between magnetizing force and flux, which will result in distortion in audio applications. A small air gap will reduce such effects. There are a series of tradeoffs between cost of materials and performance requirements. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 25 07:26:48 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA28336; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 07:22:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 07:22:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:21:55 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Wierd Transformer Effects In-Reply-To: <002801be8f17$c33b0f40$4d5accd1 default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"r-KS_2.0.aw6.8Ko8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27092 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike, Most engineers know all this. Where we look silly and ask silly questions is when we have to re-analyse somethings that had been taught to us and thought long dead. That is the difficulty, looking at things with new eyes. No point in patronising (not you in particular) there are some very able people on these sites. Sometimes when we ask silly questions, we are thinking aloud or - just overworked, to eager, trying too hard. Personally, I have no time for career skeptics. They aren't even worth the bandwidth. The mankind's future isn't made by little people. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 25 09:44:44 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA03452; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 09:39:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 09:39:42 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 11:37:57 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Existence Proof and the Scott Test Resent-Message-ID: <"4X0d21.0.sr.ELq8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27093 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 8:19 AM 4/22/99, Mitchell Jones wrote: >[snip] >>Regarding the generalized class of reactions which Power Gen >>represented--that is, those using CETI's proprietary metal coated plastic >>beads--it is interesting to note that the company is apparently no longer >>able to obtain an "over unity" result in these types of cells. We are told >>that this is due to the fact that the source of palladium which they used >>in their manufacturing process is no longer available, and palladium from >>other sources does not seem to result in "over unity" beads. >[snip] >>The alternative explanation is that the original cells were never "over >>unity" at all, and that as CETI's calorimetry has improved, their >>experimental results have come into line with that underlying state of >>affairs. This possibility is buttressed by the logical difficulty inherent >>in the claim that the source of the palladium matters. > > >A third explanation is available: precise control of the proton conduction >and material strength/bonding characteristics of the sulfonated polystyrene >bead material is required to produce the Patterson bead excess heat effect. >If all the experimental focus was on the metallic layers of Pd, Ni, and >sometimes CU, then the importance of the proton conductivity of the bead >core would be missed. ***{I don't see this as an adequate explanation. The extent of quality control exercised in the bead production process presumably did not change. Thus if the production process produced an adequate percentage of viable beads early on, it should have continued to do so, and most--or at least some--of the cells should have continued to work. Remember: one of the major advantages of the bead bed concept was allegedly the fact that the cathodes that resulted would work even if the percentage of viable beads was no higher than the percentage of good CF cathodes obtained through P & F's original process. Random sorting of beads was supposed to guarantee that all, or virtually all, cathodes would be good, even if most individual beads were not good. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >It is also possible the bead core merely acted as a hydrogen absorber that >permitted the action to run for a while before pressure built up to the >point the bead was destroyed. ***{Again, this explanation seems inadequate: if the early beads are assumed to have produced "over unity" cathodes, then why did the later beads fail to do so? Why were the later beads subject to this destructive process, while the earlier one's were not? To me, it seems more reasonable to suppose that the early "over unity" reports merely reflected bad calorimetry--e.g., of the sort known to have taken place at Power Gen. --Mitchell Jones}*** If that is the case, then metal coated open >ended tubes or a plated sheet polymer proton conductor approach (allowing >H2 escape on the back side) should correct the problem. Failure to >recognize the importance of and to measure and control the hydrogen storage >capacity of the bead core might result in failure. ***{To repeat: this does not explain the supposed successes with the early beads. --MJ}*** > >A fifth possibility is that the action takes place at the sufonated plastic >to metal interface, that there is a non-symmetric heat exchange wich occurs >as hydrogen is driven across this boundary. Each bead has an anode side >and cathode side, as well as a neutral "equator". The lack of symmetry of >heat exchanges in each of these regions due to protron migration could be >the source of heat. If this is the case, a better approach is driving the >hydrogen through sandwiched sheets made of similar materials in >horizontally stacked (in series) electrolytic cells. Again, not measuring >and controlling the key paramters associted with proton conduction >characteristics of the plastic, the metal, and the interface, would tend to >result in failure. ***{But, again, this does not explain why the early beads supposedly worked, while the later ones did not. --MJ}*** > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 25 16:02:24 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA15237; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:55:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:55:53 -0700 Message-ID: <37239C41.D8AE64C6 earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 16:50:42 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Weighing Leptons,A Problem Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"z9PoL3.0.wj3.vrv8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27094 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Still hooked on the idea that most "Electrons" associated with Static Electricty Phenomena are Light Leptons (Most likely Solar "Neutrinos") that have a mass millions of times less than "Regular Electrons", I am trying to figure a way to borrow some from a cat by rubbing it's fur with a hard rubber rod and introducing this into a Cathode Ray Tube (old TV or Computer Monitor) and weighing them by accerating them through the magnetic field generated by the deflection coils. They can gain a relativistic mass Mrel = Mo[(E/Eo)+1] and will be a velocity very near c at a volt or so acceleration, and will sweep a radius R = Mrel*c/q*B where B is in Tesla, q is unknown. One can do all of the classical electrostatic experiments including the Wimshurst and Van de Graaff stuff and still not know if these are Regular or Light Leptons. I can find a cat , a hard rubber rod, a used/modified CRT etc. But, I haven't figured out a way to introduce the Lepton Laden Rod (LLR) into the CRT, then pump it down to a good vacuum, then get the leptons off it and accelerated through the B field so that they will fluoresce a spot where they hit the CRT Phosphor. Ideas? Biefield-Brown Effect in here too, Rick. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 25 16:45:05 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA24961; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 16:37:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 16:37:00 -0700 Message-ID: <3723A64D.A5C48366 earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 17:33:36 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Weighing Leptons, A Problem Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XdD26.0.t56.RSw8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27095 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BTW, Frank, These could be what you see in Ball Lightning. :-) Also participate in the Tampere-Podlodnekov Gravity Mod Effect? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 25 22:58:46 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA04646; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 22:54:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 22:54:06 -0700 Message-ID: <19990426055647.18475.rocketmail web116.yahoomail.com> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 22:56:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: H2K: H2 Calibration To: Vortex-L eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"6iLKK.0.Q81.zz_8t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27096 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram aol.com wrote: >Frederick had also suggested a manometer (water or oil) as >a differential gauge but I think too much risk of contamination >getting sucked into the tube and also the fact that at the low >pressures I run at, water boils at room temperature. I agree with you, Vince. Liquid manometers ruin most vacuums, and they will certainly ruin yours. >...With the initial flush of alcohol >an enormous quantity of white smoke (I avoided breathing it) >blew out of the pump exhaust, probably residue K reacting with >the small amount of H2O in the alcohol? Probably yes. I did my Ph.D thesis with liquid Na + K. I cleaned my system out with butyl (I think) alcohol. It is much less reactive than common alcohols, therefore safer when dealing with larger quantities of Na or K. > I then sealed up the system and pumped hard vacuum overnight > to get it nice and dry. Never put all this water and alcohol through an OIL-sealed pump, though. You will have to drain and fill the pump oil a couple of times before you can get good vacuum again. === Michael J. Schaffer _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 25 23:56:42 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA15669; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 23:52:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 23:52:24 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 02:51:16 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: H2 Calibration To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"hWZ_53.0.hq3.dq09t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27098 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/24/1999 09:36:14 Pacific Daylight Time, VCockeram aol.com writes: > I spent Friday modifying the vacuum system _attempting_ to > add a differential vacuum gauge between the pump vacuum > and reactor tube vacuum sections of the manifold...Not good at all. > The differential gauge is much too sensitive ( +0.5-0-0.5 in. H2O), > and the additional plumbing introduces many areas of > potential (and real) leaks. Turns out I'm much too paranoid about leaks. There were none. In a phone conversation with one of the Vorts, I was educated somewhat in just how sensitive this gauge is down around 0.5 torr. The gauge works quite well if I let the system come to equilibrium with the pump valved off. Even warming one side of the system with my hand caused slight movement of the gauge pointer (0.3 in. H2O) with the gauge connections about a foot apart on each side of an open valve. Also in the works, an absolute capacitance manometer as soon as the order comes in. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 25 23:56:48 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA15299; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 23:51:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 23:51:55 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <9d309249.245566e2 aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 02:51:14 EDT Subject: Re: H2K: H2 Calibration To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: VCockeram aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"T5NxI.0.zk3.Aq09t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27097 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 04/25/1999 22:58:22 Pacific Daylight Time, schaffermj yahoo.com writes: > Never put all this water and alcohol through an OIL-sealed pump, > though. You will have to drain and fill the pump oil a couple of > times before you can get good vacuum again. > === > Michael J. Schaffer I forgot to mention that I pumped around a 60 torr vacuum for three hours with the junk pump and then to the 'good' pump for a real pumpdown. But I will change the pump oil (it's due anyway) as a precaution. Years ago, in my Dads lab, (I was 8 yrs old) I was fooling around with one of the pumps, so I tried to see if would suck water...uh oh...my Dad just caught what I was doing in time and hit the pump switch. I got the entire lecture about how to use vacuum pumps. Never forgot that. Thanks Mike Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 26 10:17:35 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA30281; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 10:11:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 10:11:47 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 08:24:33 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Existence Proof and the Scott Test Resent-Message-ID: <"rdC-K3.0.3P7.Iv99t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27099 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:37 AM 4/25/99, Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{I don't see this as an adequate explanation. The extent of quality >control exercised in the bead production process presumably did not change. >Thus if the production process produced an adequate percentage of viable >beads early on, it should have continued to do so, and most--or at least >some--of the cells should have continued to work. Remember: one of the >major advantages of the bead bed concept was allegedly the fact that the >cathodes that resulted would work even if the percentage of viable beads >was no higher than the percentage of good CF cathodes obtained through P & >F's original process. Random sorting of beads was supposed to guarantee >that all, or virtually all, cathodes would be good, even if most individual >beads were not good. --Mitchell Jones}*** It appears, Mitchell, that the only explanation of excess heat "adequate" for you is that there is none. While it is entirely possible this is true, it is also true that there are numerous known and unknown explanations for what actually has occurred in the CETI, Case, and other cells which have shown excess heat, which is my primary point. Further, if uncontrolled variables create the effect, it is then an inadequate argument to make assumptions about the uncontrolled variables, e.g. that the beads were all made the same, when there is no data to support that contention because it is not even established exactly which data are critical. A proceedure for sulfonation of the polystyrene beads sufficient to permit plating is not necessarily adequate to create a proton conductor with specific characteristics. No degree of opinionation or philosophysing will change the way nature actually works. It therefore seems the only reasonable approach is the scientific one, namely formation and testing of hypotheses regarding the phenomenon. I have provided at least three for consideration. There are numerous others possible. The hypotheses I offer are reasonable on the grounds that excess heat and low energy nuclear reactions may not correlate due to being, in part, separate phenomena. If the excess heat of a specific experiment is not tied to the metal lattice conditions, then no amount of attention paid to only the matal lattice will produce reliable results. There are various instances of nuclear reactions without corresponding heat, and also many examples of heat in excess of chemical energy, but without corresponding nuclear signatures. It is not unreasonable to think there are at least two separate processes involved, especially with the protium-nickel systems. One process may be nuclear and the other a form of ZPE extraction. There may be multiple nuclear processes involved. I think it is an intriguing fact that protium-nickle systems said to produce excess heat tend to utilize carbonates, or carbon in some form. In fact, any water containing cell exposed to the atmosphere will contain carbolic acid or some carbonate, so cathodes will plate out carbon or carbon compunds, thus would be expected to be forming complex surface structures containing carbon. It is also possible that carbon containing surface structures might be formed on the anode, since varous carbon containing radicals are negative. Excess heat could primarily be either an anode or cathode effect in electrolytic cells. The Case cell is interesting in that there is no apparent electric current involved. At most, we would expect gas migration in and out of the carbon and Pd. From Scott Little's experiments, we do know that deuterim can form convection cells, or possibly even a phase change processes, in conditions where protium does not. Bill Page and others have theorized that ZPE energy might be extracted by the (non symmetric) movement of hydrogen across a phase change boundary. It is possible Case is having difficulty establishing a self sustaining cell in that such is not possible due to the need to at least periodically distrupt the equilibium sufficiently to keep the hydrogen in motion through the catalyst surfaces. I will grant you that, based on Scott Little's experiments, that the Case cell may well not produce excess heat, as there is an alternative explantion. Similarly, the CETI results could have been due to bad calorimetry, at least at PowerGen. Certainly the crimp in the plastic tubing shed some doubts on the results. On the other hand, there were numerous other results with the CETI beads that remain unexplained, but also not fully divulged. If some of both the Case and CETI results are real, the presence of large amounts of carbon in both exeriments could be more than coincidental. My view is that we can look at the now massive amount of evidence for unexplained CF and LENR phenomena, and say "it can't be" and ignore the opportunity, or we can utilize these experiences as a source for creative inspiration, and motivation to carry foreward further investigations. Fortunately, the diversity of human nature guarantees that both courses of action will be taken with some frequency. It would appear that Bart Simon has it right in calling the field the "undead" - at least for the time being. No amount of wishful thinking can make it go away. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 26 11:15:16 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA15659; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:06:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:06:55 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:04:33 EDT Subject: The EHD-Engine v1.0 - New Important Test To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 144 Reply-To: JNaudin509 aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"zSn7L1.0.bq3.-iA9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27100 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear All, Today, I have conducted an important test about my EHD-Engine v1.0 (see below): IMPORTANT EXPERIMENT (04-26-99) ( Ion wind effect testing ) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- The EHD-Engine v1.0 has been completly enclosed (the ogival electrode AND the annular ring) with several layers of plastic sheets, so this removes all ion wind effect TEST RESULTS : ----------------------- When the High Voltage is applied to the engine, the device moves forward by itself in spite of the air drag increased by the plastic sheets. This confirms that the ion wind effect is not the cause of the motion. All informations, pictures and videos can be found at : http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/delany/256/html/ehdev1.htm Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com Overunity Web site: http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 26 13:08:12 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20705; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 12:56:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 12:56:46 -0700 MR-Received: by mta EUROPA; Relayed; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 15:55:38 -0400 (EDT) MR-Received: by mta GOSIP; Relayed; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 15:56:26 -0400 (EDT) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 15:54:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 Subject: RE: Energy In-reply-to: <37235c48.79312400 mail-hub> To: vortex-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Posting-date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 15:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Importance: normal Priority: normal UA-content-id: E2014ZXWXMQVVC X400-MTS-identifier: [;83555162409991/3692496 ODNVMS] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"aZXLS.0.Q35.zJC9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27101 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin, If the government was secretly generating electricity using ZPE devices it would have to be through the Dept. of Energy. The DOE regulates & monitors all major energy producers for pricing & emissions. If a regular business were to start using ZPE generators and selling the power it would have to explain why it's fuel costs suddenly went to zero, but their output was the same or more. But if YOU are the government you wouldn't have to explain where this extra energy is coming from that you are selling on the grid. Economically speaking, if the government could generate large amounts of power using ZPE at near zero cost, they could afford to always undercut the price of their commercial competitors who have to buy fuel. This would tend to drive down the price of electricity, giving the USA an edge over foreign economies. If I were to build a ZPE generator, I would: 1) Move to Nevada, buy a hundred acres of desert (dirt cheap). Why Nevada, because the desert has more sunlight (& Casinos;^) 2) Stick up some glass panels with wires sticking out of them and stick a label from a PV manufacturer on them. The more real looking the better, ostensibly to show an explainable power source. By using PV's (ostensibly) I don't have to worry about emissions tests by the EPA. 3) Sell the power to the local power company. Why would they buy it from you? They have to, "PURPA, Public Utilities Regulatory Policies Act (1978)" says they do. They don't have to give you a good price for it, but what do you care, your generating it for free. 4) With the money from this build more ZPE units, and more phony PV panels. (Don't forget to turn it off at night) 5) Build up a big reserve of cash for legal & advertising expenses, buy PUT options on petroleum stocks, and then: SPAM everyone with an email account a copy of the plans and parts list to make these things. Bill webriggs concentric.net >Is it possible that the sustained growth in the US economy over the last >years is due to secret introduction of ZPE based technology as a >replacement for fossil fuels in some power stations? >Regards, >Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 26 16:26:51 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA02410; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 16:21:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 16:21:31 -0700 X-Sender: hheffner mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:34:22 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The EHD-Engine v1.0 - New Important Test Resent-Message-ID: <"PTc6S1.0.Wb.xJF9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27102 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 2:04 PM 4/26/99, JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: >Dear All, > >Today, I have conducted an important test about my EHD-Engine v1.0 (see >below): > >IMPORTANT EXPERIMENT (04-26-99) ( Ion wind effect testing ) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >-------------- >The EHD-Engine v1.0 has been completly enclosed (the ogival electrode AND the >annular ring) with several layers of plastic sheets, so this removes all ion >wind effect The high field gradient about the ring may have penetrated the plastic with microscopic pinholes. In addition, the resistance of the thin plastic covering layers is non-zero. Also, if the DC contains ripple, the plastic coating has a capacitive linkage to the ambient air. A much better test is to enclose the device in a conductive container, say a balsa wood structure covered with aluminum foil, with power fed through insulators in the skin of the structure, maybe using neon sign HV wire. BTW, the video would not play for me, even though I have the current version of Video Player. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 26 17:46:29 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA23812; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 17:40:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 17:40:41 -0700 Message-ID: <372506EC.A9B1327 ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:38:06 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The EHD-Engine v1.0 - New Important Test References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KcC3N2.0.-p5.8UG9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27103 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: One way or another you have to simulate it as if it were running in the depths of space, so even if it is not ion wind it could still be due to a force (maybe even gravitational) placed on the environment including vacuum chamber walls, so what you need to do is have a large enclosure which is attached to the device, The enclosure must be light yet large enough, basically the thrust on the device must be greater than that placed on the surrounding objects in the environment. Anyway it would be nice to see a shot of the device held still with smoke to see what the air is doing. John Berry Horace Heffner wrote: > At 2:04 PM 4/26/99, JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: > >Dear All, > > > >Today, I have conducted an important test about my EHD-Engine v1.0 (see > >below): > > > >IMPORTANT EXPERIMENT (04-26-99) ( Ion wind effect testing ) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >-------------- > >The EHD-Engine v1.0 has been completly enclosed (the ogival electrode AND the > >annular ring) with several layers of plastic sheets, so this removes all ion > >wind effect > > The high field gradient about the ring may have penetrated the plastic with > microscopic pinholes. In addition, the resistance of the thin plastic > covering layers is non-zero. Also, if the DC contains ripple, the plastic > coating has a capacitive linkage to the ambient air. > > A much better test is to enclose the device in a conductive container, say > a balsa wood structure covered with aluminum foil, with power fed through > insulators in the skin of the structure, maybe using neon sign HV wire. > > BTW, the video would not play for me, even though I have the current > version of Video Player. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 27 00:02:16 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA32729; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 23:56:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 23:56:39 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <9f4903c4.2456b963 aol.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 02:55:31 EDT Subject: The EHD-Engine v1.0 - Air Bag - Test run 2 To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 144 Reply-To: JNaudin509 aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"6ZrBY3.0.7_7.c-L9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27104 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear All, Test RUN 2 (04-27-99) : The EHD-Engine v1.0 has been enclosed in a large plastic bag, so all parasitic ion wind effects are kept inside the bag, by this mean all eventual motion generated by the ion wind is not possible. TEST RESULTS : When the High Voltage is applied to the engine, the device moves forward by itself in spite of the air drag increased by the large plastic bag. This new test confirms again that the ion wind effect is not the cause of the motion. All informations, pictures and videos can be found at : http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/delany/256/html/ehdev1iw.htm Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com Overunity Web site: http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 27 00:26:23 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA19766; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 00:21:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 00:21:45 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:34:40 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The EHD-Engine v1.0 - New Important Test Resent-Message-ID: <"sgcGr1.0.mq4.9MM9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27105 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:38 PM 4/27/99, John Berry wrote: >One way or another you have to simulate it as if it were running in the >depths of >space, so even if it is not ion wind it could still be due to a force >(maybe even >gravitational) placed on the environment including vacuum chamber walls, >so what >you need to do is have a large enclosure which is attached to the device, The >enclosure must be light yet large enough An insulated enclosure is not sufficient. At minimum, a conductive enclosure is required, IMHO. Otherwise, there are electrostatic forces with objects in the environment. Thinking about this further, a control device which replaces the thrust device, probably a simple capacitor, is also essential, to examine forces on the supply and other parts of the test apparatus. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 27 01:33:52 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA30928; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 01:29:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 01:29:30 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 04:28:32 EDT Subject: Re: The EHD-Engine v1.0 - New Important Test To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: hheffner mtaonline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 144 Reply-To: JNaudin509 aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"4eSgz1.0.AZ7.gLN9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27106 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 27/04/99 09:25:16, hheffner mtaonline.net wrote : > > Thinking about this further, a control device which replaces the thrust > device, probably a simple capacitor, is also essential, to examine forces > on the supply and other parts of the test apparatus. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner Yes of course, I fully agree with you....This is the Trouton-Noble experiment and also the Cornille's Electrostatic pendulum experiment that I have already performed successfuly with the Prof. Cornille himself...This has also been reproduced successfuly by independant labs... I suggest you to see at : http://www.aes.com.freeservers.com or at : http://members.aol.com/overunity/html/elgmnu.htm All the details and the theory are fully explained in our book (512 pages) by Alexandre Szames : "L'effet Biefeld-Brown" - (ASZ editions ISBN 2-913377-00-9 - EAN 9782913377004) http://www.aes.com.freeservers.com/html/bbbook.htm Best Regards, Jean-Louis Naudin Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com Overunity Web site: http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 27 06:43:16 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA28070; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:35:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:35:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:35:36 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter To: JNaudin509 aol.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The EHD-Engine v1.0 - New Important Test In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"FwfLD2.0.Ws6.sqR9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27107 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well done! Update your website, other may want a go! Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 27 06:49:25 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA31014; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:44:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:44:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:43:49 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: monthly log Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"A9p3U2.0.Ra7.VyR9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27108 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Helo, what is the webpage for the monthly logs of vortex and freenrg? www.eskimo.com/~billb/ then waht? Sorry typos, Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 27 09:47:52 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA20382; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:42:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:42:16 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990427164754.0170b1b4 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:47:54 -0400 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com From: "Dennis C. Lee" Subject: PBS Frontline - The Dustbowl Resent-Message-ID: <"0jsCz1.0.M-4.dZU9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27109 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: PBS Frontline show about the Dustbowl aired yesterday. Excess plowing of too much land was sited as the cause of the Dustbowl. This is consistant with Viktor Schauberger's theory of the 'Water Cycle'. Off to London, be back in a week. Dennis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 27 10:21:33 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA03047; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:15:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:15:45 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 08:28:38 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The EHD-Engine v1.0 - New Important Test Resent-Message-ID: <"fxPHX1.0.Xl.13V9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27110 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:28 AM 4/27/99, JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: [snip] >Yes of course, I fully agree with you....This is the Trouton-Noble experiment >and also the Cornille's Electrostatic pendulum experiment that I have already >performed successfuly with the Prof. Cornille himself...This has also been >reproduced successfuly by independant labs... Do you therefore intend to do these two things, a metal enclosure plus performing a separate control experiment with replacement of only the thrust producing device? The experiment appears to be meaningless without these things, at a minimum. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 27 13:12:00 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA27233; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:04:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:04:50 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:02:47 EDT Subject: Re: The EHD-Engine v1.0 - New Important Test To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: hheffner mtaonline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 144 Reply-To: JNaudin509 aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA27210 Resent-Message-ID: <"aJGNr1.0.Rf6.XXX9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27111 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dans un courrier daté du 27/04/99 19:20:06é), hheffner mtaonline.net a écrit : > The experiment appears to be meaningless without > these things, at a minimum. Tests in vacuum will be the best solution...I hope soon.. :-) Regards, Jean-Louis Naudin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 27 14:08:16 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA14513; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:02:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:02:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:01:03 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: meeting: SSE-18th at Albuquerque Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"pRhcr.0.UY3.QNY9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27112 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.scientificexploration.org/meetings/eighteenth.html (see below) ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L Society for Scientific Exploration 18th Annual Meeting University of New Mexico Albuquerque, New Mexico June 3-5, 1999 The eighteenth annual SSE meeting will be held in Northrop Hall (Geology) on the campus of the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque on June 3-5, 1999. Four special sessions focus on "Shaking the Pillars of the Paradigm," "Cold Fusion," "Reports on Anomalous Phenomena," and "Suppression of New Science." TOPICS AND INVITED SPEAKERS Shaking Pillars of the Paradigm Newton Versus Einstein, Peter Graneau, Center for Electromagnetic Research, Northeastern University, Boston, MA A Skeptic in the Land of Relativity, Ian McCausland, Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada Questions Concerning Evolution, Jonathan Wells, Dept. of Molecular and Cell Biology, University of California, Berkeley, CA Structures in Insects and Evolution, Jane Robb, Dept. of Molecular Biology and Physics, University of Guelph, Ontario, Canada Cold Fusion Transmutation of Metals in the Cold, George Miley, Editor of Fusion Technology, Dept. of Nuclear Engineering, Univ. of Illinois, Urbana, IL Production of Tritium from Deuterium in Aqueous Solution, Thomas Claytor, Los Alamos National Laboratories, Los Alamos, NM Production of Helium in the Cold, Milburn Miles, Chemistry Division of Naval Weapons Center, Dept. of Navy, China Lake, CA Anomalous Heat Production from Hydrogen Saturated Palladium, Mike McKubre, Energy Research Center, SRI International, Menlo Park, CA Anomalous Phenomena Reports on Anomalous Phenomena Studies of Thomas Green Morton, Lee Pulos, Clinical Psychology, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, Canada The Effect of Prayer on Cardiac Patients, Larry Dossey, Executive Editor of Alternative Therapies in Health and Medicine, Santa Fe, NM A Simple Theory of the Perihelion of Mercury, Paul Marmet, Dept. of Physics, University of Ottawa, Canada Results of Studies of Persons Alleging Abduction under Hypnosis: Evidence for Alien Intentions, David Jacobs, History Dept., Temple University, Philadelphia, PA Suppression of New Science Concepts Related to 3-D Time, William Tifft, Astronomy Dept., University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ (Topic to be announced) John Mack, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA Role of Water in the Transmission of the Molecular Signal, Jacques Benveniste, Director of Research, Digital Biology Laboratory, Clamart, Paris, France The Suppression and Resurrection of Science, Brian O'Leary, Founder, International Association for New Science, Kihei, HI Detailed Meeting Program THURSDAY, JUNE 3, 1999 9:00-12:15 Shaking Pillars of the Paradigm 9:00-9:05 JOMB - Introduction to meeting 9:05-9:35 Peter Graneau - Newton Versus Einstein 9:35-9:45 Discussion 9:45-10:15 Ian McCausland - A Skeptic in the Land of Relativity 10:15-10:25 Discussion 10:25-10:55 COFFEE BREAK 10:55-11:25 Jonathan Wells - Questions Concerning Evolution 11:25-11:35 Discussion 11:35-12:05 Jane Robb - Structures in Insects and Evolution 12:05-12:15 Discussion LUNCHEON BREAK 2:00-5:30 Cold Fusion 2:00-2:10 Ed Storms - General Introduction to the Field 2:10-2:40 George Miley - Transmutation of Metals in the Cold 2:40-2:50 Discussion 2:50-3:20 Thomas Claytor - Production of Tritium from Deuterium in Aqueous Solution 3:20-3:30 Discussion 3:30-4:00 TEA BREAK 4:00-4:30 Milburn Miles - Production of Helium in the Cold 4:30-4:40 Discussion 4:40-5:10 Mike McKubre - Anomalous Heat Production from Hydrogen Saturated Palladium 5:10-5:20 Discussion and Close of Session FRIDAY, JUNE 4, 1999 9:00-12:15 Anomalous Phenomena 9:00-9:10 Hal Puthoff - Introduction 9:10-9:40 Lee Pulos - Studies of Thomaz Green Morton 9:40-9:50 Discussion 9:50-10:20 Larry Dossey - The Effect of Prayer on Cardiac Patients 10:20-10:30 Discussion 10:30-11:00 COFFEE BREAK 11:00-11:30 Paul Marmet - A Simple Theory of the Perihelion of Mercury 11:30-11:40 Discussion 11:40-12:10 David Jacobs - Results of Studies of Persons Alleging Abduction under Hypnosis: Evidence for Alien Intentions 12:10-12:20 Discussion LUNCHEON BREAK 2:00-5:30 Anomalous Phenomena - Continued 2:00-3:30 Contributed Papers 3:30-4:00 TEA BREAK 4:00-5:30 Contributed Papers SATURDAY, JUNE 5, 1999 9:00-12:15 Suppression of New Science 9:00-9:10 JOMB - Introduction 9:10-9:40 Brian O'Leary - Suppression of New Science 9:40-9:50 Discussion 9:50-10:20 Bill Tifft - Reluctance to Accept New Results in Astronomy 10:20-10:30 Discussion 10:30-11:00 COFFEE BREAK 11:00-11:30 John Mack - Abduction 11:30-11:40 Discussion 11:40-12:10 Jacques Benveniste - Digital Transfer of Information from Patterned Water 12:10-12:20 Discussion LUNCHEON BREAK 2:00-5:30 Suppression of New Science - Continued 2:00-3:30 Contributed Papers 3:30-4:00 TEA BREAK 4:00-5:00 Contributed Papers B A N Q U E T From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 27 14:17:00 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA32377; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:12:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:12:29 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:09:06 EDT Subject: The EHD Flying Wing is now a reality... To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 144 Reply-To: JNaudin509 aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"cxbat.0.dv7.yWY9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27113 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear All, The ARDA Flying Wing v1.0 Prototype is now fully functional with the EHD propulsion. I have conducted successfuly the first tests this night for checking the basic concept of my ARDA Project (The Advanced Reduced Drag Aircraft )... Look at: http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/delany/256/html/ardav1.htm The ARDA Flying Wing v2.0 will soon fly in the sky.... Best Regards, Jean-Louis Naudin Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com Overunity Web site: http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 27 17:11:10 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA23253; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:07:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:07:44 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:20:39 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The EHD-Engine v1.0 - New Important Test Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA23228 Resent-Message-ID: <"H8hDl.0.Ch5.F5b9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27114 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:02 PM 4/27/99, JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: >Dans un courrier daté du 27/04/99 19:20:06é), hheffner mtaonline.net a écrit : > >> The experiment appears to be meaningless without >> these things, at a minimum. > >Tests in vacuum will be the best solution...I hope soon.. :-) > >Regards, > >Jean-Louis Naudin Tests in a vacuum will be just as meaningles without a metal enclosure plus performing a separate control experiment with replacement of only the thrust producing device. The main problem is not showing that the thrust exists without gas molecules, but rather that the thrust exists when there is no electrostatic force with the surroundings. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 27 17:38:54 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA31827; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:34:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:34:17 -0700 Message-ID: <372656B4.161D6090 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 03:30:44 +0300 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Laser Fusion Comes to the Laboratory Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wK7Qd1.0.Dn7.8Ub9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27115 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://news.photonicsonline.com/technical-news/19990427-945.html Using a high-power, ultrafast Ti:sapphire laser to irradiate a cluster of deuterium atoms, researchers have achieved nuclear fusion using a "tabletop" system. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 27 18:34:11 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA14099; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:30:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:30:30 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990428092947.00a4c150 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:29:47 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: The EHD-Engine v1.0 - New Important Test In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"uMi8q.0.DS3.rIc9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27116 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace wrote : >Tests in a vacuum will be just as meaningles without a metal enclosure plus >performing a separate control experiment with replacement of only the >thrust producing device. The main problem is not showing that the thrust >exists without gas molecules, but rather that the thrust exists when there >is no electrostatic force with the surroundings. Electrostatic forces are potential in character - ie they attract/repel from one place - they are not dynamic and cannot move a charged device in a continuous circular manner. If the EHD-Engine continues to drive in a circle regardless of what position it is started from, then this cannot be due to electroSTATIC force. If it is also enclosed in an airtight container, then it is apparently not ion wind propulsion. Since Jean-Louis has finally decided to put a plastic bag around the device, it has started to become interesting - maybe it is not just another ion wind motor. But he should concentrate on trying to prove that point to himself. Try using a conductive bag (the sort that is used to ship static sensitive electronics). This will remove the criticism that static can build up on the outside surface of the bag and generate ion wind from there. Also there are the wires feeding into the bag. They are quite capable of producing ion wind between them exterior to the bag. Maybe they could be replaced with a high tension coax, or maybe one lead taken out above the bag and one below (insulated from the conductive bag of course). One interesting question is: did the force get significantly less when the large bag was added? John Berry suggested a very good idea - holding the device still and using smoke to see what the air is doing. One thing is certain in my mind - yet another inefficient electric motor design (ion wind) is not of any real interest, but a force with no apparent equal and opposite reaction is of "earth shattering" interest. If one does not do everything they can do to rule out the obvious prosaic explanation, then they cannot expect any interest from the scientific community. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 27 19:25:44 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA29134; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:21:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:21:56 -0700 Message-ID: <37266FEB.5477B0BC earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:18:19 -0600 From: "Richard T. Murray" Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: letters csicop.org, randi@randi.org, Vortex-L@eskimo.com, JosephHRowe compuserve.com, riley@ctel.net, stacey@spaworks.com, ggmurray uri.edu, zumm@flash.net, dnovak@etal.uri.edu, rollo artvark.com, astillpro@earthlink.net, patreit@trail.com, sanghamitta earthlink.net, key@nmia.com, cfritz@roadrunner.com, evgreen soar.com, LianneW@excite.com, duke@roadrunner.com, Sh0shanna aol.com, formanfarm@aol.com, lasmanos@earthlink.net, jmyeo juno.com Subject: SSE, Albuquerque, June 3-5, Murray report? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MEElb.0.z67.33d9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27117 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Subject: meeting: SSE-18th at Albuquerque Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:02:19 -0700 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:01:03 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com http://www.scientificexploration.org/meetings/eighteenth.html (see below) April 27, 1999 Hello, Do you want me to write a report for The Skeptical Inquirer? Do you pay? Warning: I am a confessed psychic and mystic, and have studied "A Course in Miracles" seriously for 21 years. Just as bad, I highly respect Jane Robert's Seth material, and Tarthang Tulku's "Time, Space, and Knowledge". Oh, well. At least I have a good reputation as a detail-oriented layman critic of cold fusion research. I do not believe in UFOs or alien abductions-- but I don't experience an objective commonsense reality either. Go figure! You see, I am a skeptic about commonsense reality, the one you seem to yourself to occupy this moment as these very letter i m a g e s emerge within awareness. By the way, at the recent Science and Consciousness Conference in Albuquerque, ex-astronaut Brian O'Leary said many wonderful consciousness and ecological things, with great flair and elan, and had a few spoons for public conscious crooking. Well, I had the benefit of James Randi's demonstration of a few of the ways of the spoon manglers supposititious (I stole this word from Mary Baker Eddy) supple art, in Albuquerque to New Mexicans for Science and Reason in spring, 1989, that by-gone fairy-land era of the dawn of cold fusion. You may remember the wonderful scene in "Forrest Gump", in which Tom Hanks is instructed in the art of ping pong: "Always keep your eye on the ball," and he did, instantly and permanently, and was thence a world master. So, likewise, my eyes were glued to that meager scrap of metal. Brian deep breathed to amplify his chi, and had us all, over fifty of us, shouting, rather feebly, "Bend! Bend!", while he swung the spoon round and round in a great circle, cradled between both of his muscular hands. My eyes went round and round in perfect, to use a popular phrase, synchronicity, as I sat in the second row, leaning forward in amiable earnestness. So, he suddenly bent it gracefully, instantly, and completely into a lovely diagonal curve, using the full force of both hands. The audience regarded this wonder in silence. I spoke up, "I am a psychic and a mystic, and I have long had precognitive dreams, and don't even experience an objective reality, and I saw you bend that spoon with both hands." He was pleasant enough, and suggested that our group energy had enabled softening of the metal at the critical moment. I hope this accounts serves to relieve you of any concerns of my competence as a skeptic. What is my, uh, slant? Tulku in TSK: "The capacity of Great Space is never exhausted or compromised by a commitment to one particular trend or world order. Great Space can let anything appear. Great Space supports infinitely many choices of perspective." This is not mere dogma or mystical drivel, but constitutes pertinent, profound, and playful injunctions to support open-ended explorations. As an example, my own experience as individuated awareness is a "choice of perspective". Rich Murray Room For All 1943 Otowi Drive Santa Fe, NM 87505 505-986-9103 505-920-6130 cellular VoiceStream rmforall earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~rmforall http://www.healthandmoneytips.com/ezine/v1i3/page5.html ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L Society for Scientific Exploration 18th Annual Meeting University of New Mexico Albuquerque, New Mexico June 3-5, 1999 The eighteenth annual SSE meeting will be held in Northrop Hall (Geology) on the campus of the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque on June 3-5, 1999. Four special sessions focus on "Shaking the Pillars of the Paradigm," "Cold Fusion," "Reports on Anomalous Phenomena," and "Suppression of New Science." TOPICS AND INVITED SPEAKERS Shaking Pillars of the Paradigm Newton Versus Einstein, Peter Graneau, Center for Electromagnetic Research, Northeastern University, Boston, MA A Skeptic in the Land of Relativity, Ian McCausland, Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada Questions Concerning Evolution, Jonathan Wells, Dept. of Molecular and Cell Biology, University of California, Berkeley, CA Structures in Insects and Evolution, Jane Robb, Dept. of Molecular Biology and Physics, University of Guelph, Ontario, Canada Cold Fusion Transmutation of Metals in the Cold, George Miley, Editor of Fusion Technology, Dept. of Nuclear Engineering, Univ. of Illinois, Urbana, IL Production of Tritium from Deuterium in Aqueous Solution, Thomas Claytor, Los Alamos National Laboratories, Los Alamos, NM Production of Helium in the Cold, Milburn Miles, Chemistry Division of Naval Weapons Center, Dept. of Navy, China Lake, CA Anomalous Heat Production from Hydrogen Saturated Palladium, Mike McKubre, Energy Research Center, SRI International, Menlo Park, CA Anomalous Phenomena Reports on Anomalous Phenomena Studies of Thomas Green Morton, Lee Pulos, Clinical Psychology, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, Canada The Effect of Prayer on Cardiac Patients, Larry Dossey, Executive Editor of Alternative Therapies in Health and Medicine, Santa Fe, NM A Simple Theory of the Perihelion of Mercury, Paul Marmet, Dept. of Physics, University of Ottawa, Canada Results of Studies of Persons Alleging Abduction under Hypnosis: Evidence for Alien Intentions, David Jacobs, History Dept., Temple University, Philadelphia, PA Suppression of New Science Concepts Related to 3-D Time, William Tifft, Astronomy Dept., University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ (Topic to be announced) John Mack, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA Role of Water in the Transmission of the Molecular Signal, Jacques Benveniste, Director of Research, Digital Biology Laboratory, Clamart, Paris, France The Suppression and Resurrection of Science, Brian O'Leary, Founder, International Association for New Science, Kihei, HI Detailed Meeting Program THURSDAY, JUNE 3, 1999 9:00-12:15 Shaking Pillars of the Paradigm 9:00-9:05 JOMB - Introduction to meeting 9:05-9:35 Peter Graneau - Newton Versus Einstein 9:35-9:45 Discussion 9:45-10:15 Ian McCausland - A Skeptic in the Land of Relativity 10:15-10:25 Discussion 10:25-10:55 COFFEE BREAK 10:55-11:25 Jonathan Wells - Questions Concerning Evolution 11:25-11:35 Discussion 11:35-12:05 Jane Robb - Structures in Insects and Evolution 12:05-12:15 Discussion LUNCHEON BREAK 2:00-5:30 Cold Fusion 2:00-2:10 Ed Storms - General Introduction to the Field 2:10-2:40 George Miley - Transmutation of Metals in the Cold 2:40-2:50 Discussion 2:50-3:20 Thomas Claytor - Production of Tritium from Deuterium in Aqueous Solution 3:20-3:30 Discussion 3:30-4:00 TEA BREAK 4:00-4:30 Milburn Miles - Production of Helium in the Cold 4:30-4:40 Discussion 4:40-5:10 Mike McKubre - Anomalous Heat Production from Hydrogen Saturated Palladium 5:10-5:20 Discussion and Close of Session FRIDAY, JUNE 4, 1999 9:00-12:15 Anomalous Phenomena 9:00-9:10 Hal Puthoff - Introduction 9:10-9:40 Lee Pulos - Studies of Thomaz Green Morton 9:40-9:50 Discussion 9:50-10:20 Larry Dossey - The Effect of Prayer on Cardiac Patients 10:20-10:30 Discussion 10:30-11:00 COFFEE BREAK 11:00-11:30 Paul Marmet - A Simple Theory of the Perihelion of Mercury 11:30-11:40 Discussion 11:40-12:10 David Jacobs - Results of Studies of Persons Alleging Abduction under Hypnosis: Evidence for Alien Intentions 12:10-12:20 Discussion LUNCHEON BREAK 2:00-5:30 Anomalous Phenomena - Continued 2:00-3:30 Contributed Papers 3:30-4:00 TEA BREAK 4:00-5:30 Contributed Papers SATURDAY, JUNE 5, 1999 9:00-12:15 Suppression of New Science 9:00-9:10 JOMB - Introduction 9:10-9:40 Brian O'Leary - Suppression of New Science 9:40-9:50 Discussion 9:50-10:20 Bill Tifft - Reluctance to Accept New Results in Astronomy 10:20-10:30 Discussion 10:30-11:00 COFFEE BREAK 11:00-11:30 John Mack - Abduction 11:30-11:40 Discussion 11:40-12:10 Jacques Benveniste - Digital Transfer of Information from Patterned Water 12:10-12:20 Discussion LUNCHEON BREAK 2:00-5:30 Suppression of New Science - Continued 2:00-3:30 Contributed Papers 3:30-4:00 TEA BREAK 4:00-5:00 Contributed Papers B A N Q U E T From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 27 19:46:34 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA01931; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:41:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:41:40 -0700 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199904280241.VAA05565 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: The EHD-Engine v1.0 - New Important Test In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990428092947.00a4c150 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> from John Winterflood at "Apr 28, 99 09:29:47 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:41:33 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dkRfm.0.zT.ZLd9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27118 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Winterflood wrote: > If the EHD-Engine continues to drive > in a circle regardless of what position it is started from, then this > cannot be due to electroSTATIC force. The circular motion has to be faster than once a day, however. > Try using a conductive bag (the sort that is > used to ship static sensitive electronics). This will remove the > criticism that static can build up on the outside surface of the > bag and generate ion wind from there. The conductive bag would have to be grounded, however. If it were simply an electrically floating potential, it wouldn't be a shield at all -- simply a new surface with an electrostatic charge on it. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 651-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 27 22:21:10 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA18105; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:16:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:16:29 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <99e4c0b1.2457f361 aol.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:15:13 EDT Subject: Re: The EHD-Engine v1.0 - New Important Test To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 144 Reply-To: JNaudin509 aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA18087 Resent-Message-ID: <"-e-zG1.0.pQ4.icf9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27119 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dans un courrier daté du 28/04/99 03:32:53é), jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au a écrit : > Try using a conductive bag (the sort that is > used to ship static sensitive electronics). This will remove the > criticism that static can build up on the outside surface of the > bag and generate ion wind from there. Yes John, THIS IS THE CASE.... :-) This is an antistatic bag used for MosFet electronic components... Regards, Jean-Louis Naudin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 28 01:43:18 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA18242; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:38:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:38:48 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990428163846.00a48d40 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:38:46 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: The EHD-Engine v1.0 - New Important Test In-Reply-To: <199904280241.VAA05565 mirage.skypoint.com> References: <3.0.6.32.19990428092947.00a4c150 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"LeuBf.0.yS4.Oai9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27120 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Logajan wrote: >> If the EHD-Engine continues to drive >> in a circle regardless of what position it is started from, then this >> cannot be due to electroSTATIC force. > >The circular motion has to be faster than once a day, however. Agreed! >> Try using a conductive bag (the sort that is >> used to ship static sensitive electronics). This will remove the >> criticism that static can build up on the outside surface of the >> bag and generate ion wind from there. > >The conductive bag would have to be grounded, however. If it were >simply an electrically floating potential, it wouldn't be a shield >at all -- simply a new surface with an electrostatic charge on it. Yes I had in mind that it should be grounded. It seems that one of JL's leads is grounded. Jean-Louis wrote: >> Try using a conductive bag (the sort that is >> used to ship static sensitive electronics). This will remove the >> criticism that static can build up on the outside surface of the >> bag and generate ion wind from there. > >Yes John, THIS IS THE CASE.... :-) >This is an antistatic bag used for MosFet electronic components... It seems from the photos that the two wires pass through the open end of the bag which has a tongue & groove seal across it. If the bag is conductive then the question arises - why doesn't it short out your EHT supply? Methinks it isn't conductive enough if it doesn't short out the supply when it touches. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 28 04:41:57 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA15730; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 04:37:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 04:37:02 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <194f23af.24584cb5 aol.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 07:36:21 EDT Subject: Re: The EHD-Engine v1.0 - New Important Test To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 144 Reply-To: JNaudin509 aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id EAA15709 Resent-Message-ID: <"bni8S1.0.ir3.TBl9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27121 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dans un courrier daté du 28/04/99 10:42:18é), jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au a écrit : > It seems from the photos that the two wires pass through the open > end of the bag which has a tongue & groove seal across it. If the > bag is conductive then the question arises - why doesn't it short > out your EHT supply? Methinks it isn't conductive enough if it > doesn't short out the supply when it touches. > This is an antistatic plastic (non conductive, staticless), not a carbon layered bag.... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 28 06:39:22 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA08021; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 06:33:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 06:33:10 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <24daedc0.245867ca aol.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:31:54 EDT Subject: Ed Wall's Calcium? To: vortex-L eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Reply-To: Tstolper aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Q3Wfh.0.Az1.Mum9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27122 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message with Subject: Existence Proof and the Scott Test; Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:12:10 -0400, Mike Carrell wrote: "In a cell run by Ed Wall, 114.5 mg of calcium was found in the electrolyte after the run, even though no calcium was present in any of the materials of the cell." That's over a tenth of a gram of calcium. When did Ed Wall report that, and what kind of cell was he running? Was he ever able to replicate the result? (Calcium is a treacherous contaminant, present in blackboard chalk dust, wintertime desalting compounds, and even in dead skin from one's fingertips.) Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 28 08:16:05 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA09089; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:11:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:11:05 -0700 Message-ID: <37272480.72EF3D3C earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:08:49 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ed Wall's Calcium? References: <24daedc0.245867ca aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qzI15.0.xD2.8Ko9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27123 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Usually lots of calcium in well water,Tom. But, if there was Potassium in the water to begin with: Proton-neutrino + 19K39 ----> 20Ca40 + neutrino + energy or Deuteron-neutrino + 19K39 ----> 20Ca41+ neutrino or 20Ca40 + neutrino + Neutron Quite Possible. Regards, Frederick Tstolper aol.com wrote: > In a message with Subject: Existence Proof and the Scott Test; Date: Sat, 17 > Apr 1999 15:12:10 -0400, Mike Carrell wrote: > > "In a cell run by Ed Wall, 114.5 mg of calcium was found in the electrolyte > after the run, even though no calcium was present in any of the materials of > the cell." > > That's over a tenth of a gram of calcium. When did Ed Wall report that, and > what kind of cell was he running? Was he ever able to replicate the result? > (Calcium is a treacherous contaminant, present in blackboard chalk dust, > wintertime desalting compounds, and even in dead skin from one's fingertips.) > > Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 28 09:56:25 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA16183; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:51:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:51:13 -0700 Message-ID: <37273BF2.21EAAD8 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:48:51 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrostatic Activation of H2O or D2O Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZAnMl3.0.jy3.1op9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27124 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex While awaiting getting set up to weigh Light Leptons (Neutrinos) a simple approach to charging D2O or H20 used in various Cold Fusion Experiments is a manual approach using a hard rubber rod to stroke the family cat then discharge the rod into the water using a wire brush with the "bristles" in metallic contact with the water so that the Leptons can "flow along the surface and into the water. A Modified Van de Graaff generator or a low current-high voltage device similar to the tabletop ion generators should work also. With the water charged with the Negative LLs the CF experiments might yield some interesting OU and LENR effects. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 28 10:51:28 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA09283; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:39:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:39:03 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:51:45 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The EHD-Engine v1.0 - New Important Test Resent-Message-ID: <"avQd_1.0.uG2.tUq9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27125 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:36 AM 4/28/99, JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: [snip] >This is an antistatic plastic (non conductive, staticless), not a carbon >layered bag.... It is then ineffective in eliminating electrostatic force with adjacent objects. At 9:29 AM 4/28/99, John Winterflood wrote: [snip] >Electrostatic forces are potential in character - ie they attract/repel >from one place - they are not dynamic and cannot move a charged device >in a continuous circular manner. If the EHD-Engine continues to drive >in a circle regardless of what position it is started from, then this >cannot be due to electroSTATIC force. If it is also enclosed in an >airtight container, then it is apparently not ion wind propulsion. The continuous rotation test is interesting, but only foolproof if the supply has no large AC component, i.e. if the force is electroDYNAMIC in nature, true? So, the purity of the DC signal is an issue, unless sufficient shielding is provided. A control experiment is still necessry to determine that it is actually the device itself which produces the thrust as hypothesized. >From the photos it appears to me that the device can not complete revolutions due to crowded conditions. Is this an illusion? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 28 11:18:02 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA20399; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:13:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:13:19 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:26:11 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The EHD-Engine v1.0 - New Important Test Resent-Message-ID: <"fRBKg.0.f-4.--q9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27126 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I just wrote: "The continuous rotation test is interesting, but only foolproof if the supply has no large AC component, i.e. if the force is electroDYNAMIC in nature, true? So, the purity of the DC signal is an issue, unless sufficient shielding is provided. " That should read: "The continuous rotation test is interesting, but only foolproof if the supply has no large AC component, i.e. if the force is NOT electroDYNAMIC in nature, true? So, the purity of the DC signal is an issue, unless sufficient shielding is provided. " Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 28 14:01:50 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA09579; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:56:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:56:12 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <7a231c38.2458cf54 aol.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:53:40 EDT Subject: Re: The EHD-Engine v1.0 - New Important Test To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: hheffner mtaonline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 144 Reply-To: JNaudin509 aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA09561 Resent-Message-ID: <"oBkfh3.0.bL2.hNt9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27127 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dans un courrier daté du 28/04/99 19:43:19é), hheffner mtaonline.net a écrit : > From the photos it appears to me that the device can not complete > revolutions due to crowded conditions. Is this an illusion? > Yes, unfortunately, my lab is a bit small for this kind of setup... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 28 19:32:56 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA09024; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:27:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:27:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3727C311.9AFF6BCD ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:25:22 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: JNaudin509 aol.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: The EHD-Engine v1.0 - New Important Test References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yALUU2.0.pC2.gEy9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27128 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A test in vacuum is useless because we already know it will work just great, Brown put in his patents that it pushes on the walls of the vacuum tube so all that will be proven is that it's not an ionic propulsion however in no way will it prove that it is REACTIONLESS. (if it's not reactionless then it's only going to fly in an atmosphere) John Berry JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: > Dans un courrier daté du 27/04/99 19:20:06é), hheffner mtaonline.net a écrit : > > > The experiment appears to be meaningless without > > these things, at a minimum. > > Tests in vacuum will be the best solution...I hope soon.. :-) > > Regards, > > Jean-Louis Naudin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 28 19:57:12 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA16663; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:51:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:51:49 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:49:37 -1000 Subject: Re: The EHD-Engine v1.0 - New Important Test From: "Rick Monteverde" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <199904282308.SM00205 [206.127.240.158]> Resent-Message-ID: <"Yr0XP.0.H44.4by9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27129 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John - > A test in vacuum is useless because we already know it will > work just great, Brown put in his patents that it pushes on > the walls of the vacuum tube so all that will be proven is > that it's not an ionic propulsion however in no way will it > prove that it is REACTIONLESS. (if it's not reactionless then > it's only going to fly in an atmosphere) Ok, how about this test: mount the thruster in one side of a large enclosed "tent" made of plastic, garden stakes or whatever for poles. A box 1 meter or so on each side should do. The thruster is mounted inside on one side not too far from a vertical face, counterbalanced with a dead weight on the other side. The whole setup is hung from a center point on the top of the box, free to spin a few revs (before the wires twist up too much). If it spins with HVDC...? I can't imagine why there should be a continuous flow of ions outside the box under the above circumstances, or anything like a continuous push from electrostatic forces - whether charge is induced or is pre-existing on outside air and walls in the room. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 28 20:11:35 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA20972; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:06:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:06:56 -0700 MR-Received: by mta EUROPA; Relayed; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:22:01 -0400 (EDT) MR-Received: by mta GOSIP; Relayed; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:37:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 Subject: Re: Electrostatic Activation of H2O or D2O In-reply-to: <37273BF2.21EAAD8 earthlink.net> To: vortex-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Posting-date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:22:00 -0400 (EDT) Importance: normal Priority: normal UA-content-id: E2025ZXWZKIVL9 X400-MTS-identifier: [;10224182409991/3697901 ODNVMS] A1-type: MAIL Hop-count: 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"wxH3c1.0.N75.Gpy9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27130 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick, How did you train your cat to hold still for this? Mine seem to know when I'm in the mood for experimenting and hide. Ever notice how you can improve your radio & TV reception by just touching the antenna, until you try to walk back to the couch and it goes back to normal. Well I found if you connect the antenna to a wire cage and put a cat inside it has the same effect. Except now the cats run if they see the cage, of course they also hide when I bring out their travel cage. I also read in George Wiseman's booklet on gathering free electrical energy from the environment that sometimes a cat would be used to help tune the device. Bill webriggs concentric.net >a manual approach using a hard rubber rod to stroke the >family cat then discharge the rod into the water using a wire brush From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 28 20:32:43 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA27172; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:27:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:27:52 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990427233805.00a7e680 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:38:08 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: Electrostatic Activation of H2O or D2O Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"IWAFe2.0.Ue6.u6z9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27131 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This brings to mind that old free energy/antigravity device, which you make by affixing a piece of buttered toast (butter side up) to the back of a cat. When dropped, the cat will of course struggle to land on it's feet, and the buttered toast will struggle to land butter side down. The whole apparatus spins at it's resonant frequency, producing energy while levitating. Please don't tell the ASPCA about this, as I've been running the lights in my house for weeks on such a device. K. At 01:37 PM 4/28/99 -0400, you wrote: >Frederick, > >How did you train your cat to hold still for this? > >Mine seem to know when I'm in the mood for experimenting and hide. > >Ever notice how you can improve your radio & TV reception by just touching the >antenna, until you try to walk back to the couch and it goes back to normal. > >Well I found if you connect the antenna to a wire cage and put a cat inside >it has the same effect. Except now the cats run if they see the cage, of >course they also hide when I bring out their travel cage. > >I also read in George Wiseman's booklet on gathering free electrical energy >from the environment that sometimes a cat would be used to help tune the >device. > >Bill >webriggs concentric.net > > > >>a manual approach using a hard rubber rod to stroke the >>family cat then discharge the rod into the water using a wire brush > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 28 21:05:30 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA04210; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:59:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:59:55 -0700 From: Chuck Davis To: PsyPhyList Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:52:21 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: ANOTHER VIRUS? (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"hIra2.0.g11.xaz9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27132 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Forwarded message, originally written by Zsuzsana de Zilahy on 28-Apr-99 *** ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- From:RonnieBurns, INTERNET:RonnieBurns bigpond.com TO:"Zsuzsana de Zilahy", quantumed DATE:28/04/99 14:26 RE:ANOTHER VIRUS >WARNING > >>>If you receive an email titled "It Takes Guts to Say 'Jesus' DO NOT > >>>OPEN IT. It will erase everything on your hard drive. This > information > >>>was announced yesterday morning from IBM; AOL states that this is a > very > >>>dangerous virus, much worse than "Melissa", and that there is NO > >>>remedy for it at this time. > >>> > >>>Some very strange individual has succeeded in using the re-format > >>function > >>>from Norton Utilities causing it to completely erase all documents on > >>>the hard drive. It has been designed to work with Netscape Navigator > >>>and Microsoft Internet Explorer. It destroys MacIntosh and IBM > >>>compatible computers. This is a new, very malicious virus and not many > >>>people know about it. > >>> > >>>Pass this warning along to EVERYONE in your address book and please > >>>share it with all your online friends ASAP so that this threat may be > >>>stopped. Please practice cautionary measures and tell anyone that may > >>>have access to your computer. Forward this warning to everyone that > >>>might access the internet . > ----------------------- Internet Header -------------------------------- Sender: RonnieBurns bigpond.com Received: from teapot27.domain5.bigpond.com (teapot27.domain5.bigpond.com [139.134.5.174]) by hpamgaaa.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.4) with SMTP id IAA08702 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:26:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by teapot27.domain5.bigpond.com (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ca989874 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:12:59 +1000 Received: from DC-124-24.bpb.bigpond.com ([203.40.124.24]) by mail5.bigpond.com (Claudes-Geeky-MailRouter V2.2f 9/479175); 28 Apr 1999 22:12:58 Subject: ANOTHER VIRUS Date: Wed, 28 Apr 99 07:22:28 -0000 x-sender: RonnieBurns mail.bigpond.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: RonnieBurns To: "Zsuzsana de Zilahy" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-Id: <12125942122539 domain5.bigpond.com> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 28 21:37:15 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA14352; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:32:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:32:42 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990428004257.00a7e680 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 00:43:01 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: It Takes Guts to Say 'Jesus' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"VaR6K.0.AW3.g3-9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27133 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: But it takes more guts to overcome the meme and read this message. Please stop spreading this mail virus nonsense... K. Sorry for all the frivolity today. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 28 22:01:04 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA21636; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:56:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:56:57 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:54:24 -1000 Subject: Re: ANOTHER VIRUS? (fwd) From: "Rick Monteverde" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <199904290113.SM00205 [206.127.240.158]> Resent-Message-ID: <"5Uv0I2.0.wH5.PQ-9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27134 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chuck, please... >>>Pass this warning along to EVERYONE ...THINK before posting anything with this line in it. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 28 22:30:52 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA08244; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:26:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:26:12 -0700 From: Chuck Davis To: Rick Monteverde Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:25:22 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <199904290113.SM00205 [206.127.240.158]> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: ANOTHER VIRUS? (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"P0SG21.0.k02.qr-9t" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27135 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 28-Apr-99, Rick Monteverde, wrote: >Chuck, please... >>>>Pass this warning along to EVERYONE >...THINK before posting anything with this line in it. >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI Stupid is as stupid does... Sorry.... :( -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' http://www.post-trauma.com/roshi.html http://www.Starsaga.com/biofeedback.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 29 01:18:53 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA08865; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 01:14:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 01:14:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:13:56 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: IBM's thermoconvertors Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"zKIZO1.0.RA2.AJ1At" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27136 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello, Harold Aspden suggested these pages. I'll get the patent and find out what happened. I need time to think so may go quite for a little bit. Harold's site contains - alot! truncate URL to see the lot. http://www.energyscience.co.uk/notes/rn9705.htm http://www.energyscience.co.uk/notes/rn9702.htm Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 29 04:59:22 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA21328; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 04:54:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 04:54:58 -0700 Message-ID: <37284960.8ADF3BEA bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 07:58:24 -0400 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ANOTHER VIRUS? (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9gkwV1.0.AD5.IY4At" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27137 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This web site tracks email hoax virii. You might want to bookmark it: http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 29 05:26:01 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA27770; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 05:22:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 05:22:10 -0700 Message-ID: <37284E41.BD1DADC6 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 06:19:14 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrostatic Activation of H2O or D2O Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"htBxO.0.mn6.nx4At" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27138 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill Briggs Asks: > > How did you train your cat to hold still for this? > Purrsistance. :-) When I get the Cathode Ray Tube Light Lepton Mass/Charge experiment set up I intend to do a CAT SCAN on him. Anyhow, I took a piece of Plexiglas (Lucite) and rubbed it with some Saran Wrap to build up a good negative charge on the film (Light Leptons or Regular Electrons?) and immersed the plastic film in a 2 cup beaker of water out of the tap, and measured the resistance with a DVM then compared it with the resistance of a beaker of plain water. The "activated" water was about 81 kilo-ohms and the plain water was about 120 kilo-ohms. After about an hour the "activated" water resistance was about 132 kilo-ohms which is about where the water out of the tap leveled off. Apparently they diffuse out of the water and attach to air molecules(my well is 100 ft. deep). Small wonder that they call them Leptons. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 29 10:44:08 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA24997; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:38:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:38:15 -0700 X-Mailer: BeyondMail for Windows/Professional 2.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ron Marshall Subject: Table Top Fusion via Laser Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:38:52 -0700 X-BeyondMail-Priority: 1 Message-Id: Conversation-Id: Reply-To: Ron Marshall X-Receipt-From-Agent: true Resent-Message-ID: <"AeTIS1.0.V66.7a9At" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27139 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: After reading the "table top fusion" article at http://news.photonicsonline.com/technical-news/19990427-945.html a thought occurred to me. If this laser excited fusion experiment was tried on Dr. Mill's hydrinos or in combination with muon-catalyzed fusion it seems like better results could be achieved. Ron Marshall Sunnyvale, Texas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 29 12:37:14 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA32638; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:32:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:32:08 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:45:02 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Electrostatic Activation of H2O or D2O Resent-Message-ID: <"K4ZId.0.uz7.tEBAt" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27140 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:19 AM 4/29/99, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >Anyhow, I took a piece of Plexiglas (Lucite) and rubbed it with some >Saran Wrap to build up a good negative charge on the film (Light Leptons >or Regular Electrons?) and immersed the plastic film in a 2 cup beaker >of water out of the tap, and measured the resistance with a DVM then >compared it with the resistance of a beaker of plain water. The >"activated" water was about 81 kilo-ohms and the plain water was about >120 kilo-ohms. After about an hour the "activated" water resistance was >about 132 kilo-ohms which is about where the water out of the tap >leveled off. > >Apparently they diffuse out of the water and attach to air molecules(my >well is 100 ft. deep). Small wonder that they call them Leptons. I think lack of controls for film formation on the electrodes is a alternative explanation. You should try the experiment using differing kinds of electrode material, and also carefully controlling for the total current through electrodes by measuring the amount of time the resistance meter is applied to them, as well as controlling submersion time. Electrodes should be dried upon removal from the water. Platinum electrodes are best, of course. It is also an improvement to condition the electrodes prior to measuring water conductivity by running through an acid bath followed by a neutral bath and then drying. Another of the difficulties of measuring such resistance is controlling exposed electrode surface area, as well as the geometry of the fluid container/electrode position. One means of controlling for this is to seal two Pt electrodes sticking out of the end of a glass or plastic tube. maybe just bonding two wires with a glob of Automotive Goop, obtainable at Ace Hardware would work OK. This fixes relative distance and surface area. When measuring conductivity it is a good practice to take measurements every 20 seconds or so for a few minutes and plot the decline curve as the electrode coats. I suggest this if for no other reason than to get a picture of roughly how far off your measurments might be, depending on the time you take them. It provides a good tutorial on the mercurial nature of electrolyte conductivity measurment. A much better and more typical technique is to use a Wheatstone bridge and about a 1 kHz signal, which you can get from a radio shack code oscillator capacitively coupled to the bridge to avoid DC. You can use cheap but sensitive earphones across the center of the bridge to determine the zero point. The electrolytic cell forms one leg of the bridge. The cell is placed in series with a resistor of approximately the same resistance. The other side of the bridge is formed by a potentiometer. Cheap pots are available for a few bucks at radio shack. The electrodes are best formed into parallel wire loops. Measuring the aboslute (as opposed to relative) conductivity of a solution is typically done by using a fixed geometry cell. The cell constant is established by using an electrolyte of known conductance. Just some thought to consider. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 29 23:34:19 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA19990; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:29:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:29:17 -0700 X-BPC-Relay-Envelope-From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au X-BPC-Relay-Envelope-To: X-BPC-Relay-Sender-Host: CPE-24-192-27-67.vic.bigpond.net.au [24.192.27.67] X-BPC-Relay-Info: Message delivered directly. From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Existence Proof and the Scott Test Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 06:28:35 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <37294d11.562262 mail-hub> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA19972 Resent-Message-ID: <"ABX1e1.0.Gu4.ysKAt" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27141 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 26 Apr 1999 08:24:33 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >I think it is an intriguing fact that protium-nickle systems said to >produce excess heat tend to utilize carbonates, or carbon in some form. In [snip] I think Mills is of the opinion that the carbonate anion is just the right size to keep two potassium ions the right distance apart to facilitate hydrino formation. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 30 05:12:21 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA08834; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 05:07:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 05:07:43 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 03:20:45 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Existence Proof and the Scott Test Resent-Message-ID: <"-n1VM2.0.u92.FqPAt" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27142 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:28 PM 4/29/99, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: [snip] >I think Mills is of the opinion that the carbonate anion is just the >right size to keep two potassium ions the right distance apart to >facilitate hydrino formation. If electrochemical cells containing carbonates can manufacture large amounts of hydrinos, i.e. a sufficient number to produce excess heat, then it should be possible to determine this by using a membrane that only marginally passes hydrogen to separate hydrinos from the evolved hydrogen. The diffusion rate of hydrinos, which are smaller than their ground state hydrogen counterparts, should be much larger. The difficulty might be containing the hydrinos at all? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 30 08:04:39 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA19174; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 07:52:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 07:52:51 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:51:13 EDT Subject: Re: Ed Wall's Calcium? To: vortex-L eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Resent-Message-ID: <"7t4sV.0.Wh4.3FSAt" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27143 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred Sparber wrote in his message Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:08:49 -0600 that there was usually lots of calcium in well water. Fred, how much of that calcium would a single distillation get rid of? (Several years ago, an electrochemist told me that it often took several distillations to make really pure distilled water. Maybe that's one reason why some researchers add a deionization step, or prefer deionization.) Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 30 11:31:41 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA20921; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:25:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:25:41 -0700 Message-ID: <3729F51B.A6B23A39 earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:23:24 -0600 From: Frederick Sparber X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ed Wall's Calcium? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UPOPe.0.k65.bMVAt" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27144 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My well water runs about 15 Grains/gallon = 15/7000 lbs/gallon or about 11*17 parts/million, mostly CaCo3 and Iron salts. I use an ion exchange water softener that substitutes Sodium for the Calcium and other Cations. The commercial distillation units usually double or triple distill to get out the salt carryover and CO2. Even then many follow up with deionization columns. Amazing the salts that are in rainwater that comes from sea water. :-) Regards, Frederick Tstolper aol.com wrote: > Fred Sparber wrote in his message Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:08:49 -0600 that > there was usually lots of calcium in well water. > > Fred, how much of that calcium would a single distillation get rid of? > (Several years ago, an electrochemist told me that it often took several > distillations to make really pure distilled water. Maybe that's one reason > why some researchers add a deionization step, or prefer deionization.) > > Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 30 11:44:17 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA25670; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:38:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:38:28 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990430143825.00798540 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:38:25 -0400 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Ed Wall's Calcium? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"l26131.0._G6.ZYVAt" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27145 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I would like to mention that we should hear more about this topic from Ed himself next week. He is out of touch at the moment. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 30 14:45:39 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05293; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 21:41:21 +0000 (GMT) From: Mathias Bage X-Sender: mathias viggo.brace.dom To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: EHD/ARDA electrode polarity Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"UnDyX.0.bI1.2CYAt" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27146 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi! Anyone noticed that the electrode polarity of JLN's EHD/ARDA is reversed from TT Brown's? Or, have I missed something? TTB: movement towards the positive electrode JLN: movement towards the negative electrode Still scratching my head, Mathias Bage, Sweden From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 30 15:05:17 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA31317; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:58:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:58:55 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:56:29 -1000 Subject: Re: EHD/ARDA electrode polarity From: "Rick Monteverde" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <199904301815.SM00205 [206.127.240.158]> Resent-Message-ID: <"obzHX3.0.ze7.SUYAt" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27147 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mathias - >Hi! > >Anyone noticed that the electrode polarity of JLN's EHD/ARDA is reversed >from TT Brown's? Or, have I missed something? > > TTB: movement towards the positive electrode > > JLN: movement towards the negative electrode > > >Still scratching my head, > > Mathias Bage, Sweden The thrust is said to be in the direction of the positive electrode in the case of symmetrical electrodes. Otherise it can be in either polarity in the case of assymetric electrode geometry, and is in the direction of the diminishing charge gradient. That's assumed to apply to the vacuum case; ions of whatever source and electrode and other geometry of the device will affect this as well, possibly reversing it. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 30 16:14:37 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA20237; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 16:12:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 16:12:45 -0700 X-BPC-Relay-Envelope-From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au X-BPC-Relay-Envelope-To: X-BPC-Relay-Sender-Host: CPE-24-192-27-67.vic.bigpond.net.au [24.192.27.67] X-BPC-Relay-Info: Message delivered directly. From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Existence Proof and the Scott Test Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 23:12:07 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <372a3465.59790655 mail-hub> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA20179 Resent-Message-ID: <"OFX2M1.0.0y4.iZZAt" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27148 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 30 Apr 1999 03:20:45 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >If electrochemical cells containing carbonates can manufacture large >amounts of hydrinos, i.e. a sufficient number to produce excess heat, then >it should be possible to determine this by using a membrane that only >marginally passes hydrogen to separate hydrinos from the evolved hydrogen. >The diffusion rate of hydrinos, which are smaller than their ground state >hydrogen counterparts, should be much larger. The difficulty might be >containing the hydrinos at all? [snip] I think that Mills initially underestimated the ease with which hydrino-hydride is formed. It seems that hydrinos are strong oxidants, especially if they are shrunken by more than one step (level). The implication IMO is that bare hydrinos are probably rare. The negatively charged hydrino-hydride is likely to be rapidly solvated in solution, and thus attached to its attendant water molecules won't likely be going far. Of course what happens in a gas reactor system will depend on what else is present. Another point that I raised, though which Mills doesn't think very likely (understatement?) is that a very heavily shrunken hydrino-hydride would be a heavy analogue of a negative muon with a mass close to that of the neutron. The difference being that as well as catalyzing nuclear reactions in the way that negative muons do, hydrino-hydride could itself also take part. Where "deuterinos" are involved, this could lead to the fusion of mid-range and light elements with the deuterino into heavier elements when the mass difference is only about 10 MeV (the usual energy contribution when fusing deuterium to another nucleus). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 30 19:07:03 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA01844; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 19:04:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 19:04:49 -0700 Message-ID: <372A60AD.3CDA434D ihug.co.nz> Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 14:02:21 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: EHD/ARDA electrode polarity References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"E5BOe.0.kS.05cAt" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27149 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Brown found movement towards any pole, the positive pole forward was stronger. (and then there is the doyle effect where a HV capacitor loses weight no matter which pole is up, Brown's British patent also has one of there where there is a weightloss rather than a thrust) Mathias Bage wrote: > Hi! > > Anyone noticed that the electrode polarity of JLN's EHD/ARDA is reversed > from TT Brown's? Or, have I missed something? > > TTB: movement towards the positive electrode > > JLN: movement towards the negative electrode > > Still scratching my head, > > Mathias Bage, Sweden From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 30 23:30:47 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA04578; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 23:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 23:28:21 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <701a81fc.245bf756 aol.com> Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 02:21:10 EDT Subject: Re: EHD/ARDA electrode polarity To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: rick highsurf.com, mathias@stacken.kth.se MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 144 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id XAA04555 Resent-Message-ID: <"agNMo1.0.S71.1yfAt" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/27150 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 01/05/99 00:02:43, rick highsurf.com a écrit : > Mathias - > > >Hi! > > > >Anyone noticed that the electrode polarity of JLN's EHD/ARDA is reversed > >from TT Brown's? Or, have I missed something? > > > > TTB: movement towards the positive electrode > > > > JLN: movement towards the negative electrode > > > > > >Still scratching my head, > > > > Mathias Bage, Sweden > > The thrust is said to be in the direction of the positive electrode in the > case of symmetrical electrodes. Otherise it can be in either polarity in the > case of assymetric electrode geometry, and is in the direction of the > diminishing charge gradient. That's assumed to apply to the vacuum case; > ions of whatever source and electrode and other geometry of the device will > affect this as well, possibly reversing it. > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > > Hi Mathias and Rick, "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is." I agree with Rick, I have checked the polarity reversal experimentaly, I can confirm that this the best configuration is the setup that I have used. Regards, Jean-Louis Naudin