From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 00:34:31 1999
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Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 23:36:21 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mallove-Park Cold Fusion Radio Program
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>> >Bad idea. They usually attenuate the signal and introduce noise. I suppose
>> >that is how the wire tap detectors detect them.
>>
>> I think it is worse than that.  I think it is illegal, unless you inform
>> the other parties that you are doing it.  That is why recorders go beep all
>> the time while recording messages while you are also talking
>
>You can't wiretap as an uninvited third party, but I believe only two states
>prohibit 2nd party phone recording (as we learned with Maryland and Linda
>Tripp), and there is no federal law against it.


Also of interest are the questions of copyright and ownership of material
taped at the remote phone end, in the event there is not a written contract
for the participants.  Certainly the local half of the conversation hits
the local tape first, not that that is necessarily the deciding factor
regarding ownership.  There may be at least three state laws as well as
federal regulations involved.  Messy!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 01:17:11 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Mallove-Park Cold Fusion Radio Program
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 04:20:57 -0400
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Horace wrote:
>Also of interest are the questions of copyright and ownership of material
>taped at the remote phone end, in the event there is not a written contract
>for the participants.  Certainly the local half of the conversation hits
>the local tape first, not that that is necessarily the deciding factor
>regarding ownership.  There may be at least three state laws as well as
>federal regulations involved.  Messy!
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

You could try and get a written legal opinion from a copywrite attorney who
is knowledgable and licensed to practice in all three states.  Of course,
that might cost you 20 times what the tape would cost...  I also wonder what
the laws would say if Gene were to use a speaker phone.  There may be a
legal distinction between tapping a phone line, and just happening to have a
running tape recorder within earshot of a speakerphone conversation.  Heck,
maybe the dog brought it in and turned it on or something like that 8^)  I
think though, that if you ask for a written release from both parties to
tape the conversation for non-commercial in-house porpoises, and pre-order a
tape of the broadcast, they would be agreeable.  Just because Park doesn't
believe in reality and doesn't want to read any papers about it, doesn't
necessarily mean that he is unreasonable.  Does it? 

Knuke

     
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 03:59:06 1999
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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re; Mizuno comments
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 04:50:38 -0600
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The literature on D.C. Arcs in air for an end to end arc between circular
electrodes:

Cathode Fall     10 to 20 volts
Anode Fall        15 to 40 volts
1 to 2 cm length, 20 to 80 volts/cm potential gradient
1 to several amperes current
2 to 4 millimeter diameter arc channel

>From this one can deduce several critical parameters:

1, Electrode Spacing
2, Electrode Geometry
3, Water Conductivity
4, Water/Gas Temperature
5, Cathode Material
6, Cathode Surface Condition
7, Barometric Pressure
8, Power Supply Characteristics

IOW, an exact replication or else.   :-)

Regards,          Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 05:49:26 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Mizuno comments
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At 23:55 5/31/99 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>>This is why I purchased a "proper" regulated DC power supply....

>     "proper" means what?
>
>    This is an important issue, and exact details may be quite important.

Mizuno's own words about his own power supply:

>I used Direct current power supply EX1500H that was made by Takasago LTD. of
>Japan.This is stable power supply of 240V and 25A, load
>regulation:0.01%+10mV, line regulation:001%+8mV, ripple:10mV r.m.s., noise
>50mV p-p, temp.coefficient:+-50ppm/C for constant voltage. And load
>regulation:0.01%+3mA, line regulation:001%+2mA, ripple:20mA r.m.s.,
>temp.coefficient:+-100ppm/C for constant current.

This is an incredible beast of a power supply....6 kW output.  Must've cost
many thousands of dollars.

My new, "proper" power supply, is a older rack-mount unit made by
Electronic Measurements, Inc. (SCR 150-10-OV) that is rated at 0-150VDC and
0-10 amperes (the experiment runs at ~120V and ~1 amp).  It has both CV and
CC operation with automatic crossover.  I'm waiting for the specs, which
will be in a manual they're sending me.  However, it's probably similar to
EMI's present TCR series, which has 0.1% regulation, 200mV ripple, 0.05%
stability, etc.  Not nearly as perfect as Mizuno's beast.

My earlier, "improper" supply was a Variac, full-wave bridge, and filter
capacitors arrangement.  Nominally constant voltage but no regulation.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 05:54:04 1999
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Subject: Re: Mizuno comments
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At 07:45 AM 6/1/99 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>At 23:55 5/31/99 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>>>This is why I purchased a "proper" regulated DC power supply....
>
>>     "proper" means what?
>>    This is an important issue, and exact details may be quite important.
>
>Mizuno's own words about his own power supply:
>
>>I used Direct current power supply EX1500H that was made by Takasago LTD. of
>>Japan.This is stable power supply of 240V and 25A, load
>>regulation:0.01%+10mV, line regulation:001%+8mV, ripple:10mV r.m.s., noise
>>50mV p-p, temp.coefficient:+-50ppm/C for constant voltage. And load
>>regulation:0.01%+3mA, line regulation:001%+2mA, ripple:20mA r.m.s.,
>>temp.coefficient:+-100ppm/C for constant current.
>
>This is an incredible beast of a power supply....6 kW output.  Must've cost
>many thousands of dollars.
>
>My new, "proper" power supply, is a older rack-mount unit made by
>Electronic Measurements, Inc. (SCR 150-10-OV) that is rated at 0-150VDC and
>0-10 amperes (the experiment runs at ~120V and ~1 amp).  It has both CV and
>CC operation with automatic crossover.  I'm waiting for the specs, which
>will be in a manual they're sending me.  However, it's probably similar to
>EMI's present TCR series, which has 0.1% regulation, 200mV ripple, 0.05%
>stability, etc.  Not nearly as perfect as Mizuno's beast.
>
>My earlier, "improper" supply was a Variac, full-wave bridge, and filter
>capacitors arrangement.  Nominally constant voltage but no regulation.


  Although issues of ripple and stability are relatively important
it is not crucial since that is not the issue here.  The issues
about the internal impedance of the power supply, and the other
matters Frederick discussed, are the ones you should consider but
do not address in your post above.   You should consider them,
or get the identical unit, Dr. Mizuno used.

   Have a good day.
   Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 06:02:40 1999
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At 22:56 5/31/99 -0600, Frederick  Sparber wrote:

>I agree.  Perhaps a test to see if  Scott's "constant voltage regulated
>power supply" is starving out the discharge of  the device when it wants to
>go into the constant voltage negative resistance (high current draw) mode,
>is to use a diode in series to a large capacitor in parallel....

How about monitoring the voltage across the cell?  If it doesn't droop,
it's not starving, right?  I'll try that here in a little while.




Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 06:07:22 1999
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Subject: info from Mizuno
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Over the weekend Mizuno commented on several issues:

Kyoto lab:  Another lab in Kyoto has replicated his experiment (using a
cathode that Mizuno supplied) and they are observing 300 watts out for 200
watts in!!  They ran their cell at 120V.  Calorimetry consists of a
temperature rise method with the entire cell (four liters of electrolyte!)
housed in a Dewar.

Voltage:  He gradually increases the voltage on his cell, observes first
light at about 90V and goes on up to somewhere between 120 and 180 for the
excess heat run.  He does not reduce the voltage so that the cell is
operating on the lower branch of the hysteresis loop.  He does not think
that the voltage is critical to the excess heat effect.

Light spectrum:  He says the light spectrum is "important" for the excess
heat effect.  I interpret this to mean that the excess heat effect only
occurs when a certain spectrum is being emitted.  He has published this
spectrum in the Japanese Journal of Electrochemistry.  Jed, is that the
paper you're translating now?

Cathodes:  Mizuno is making a cathode for us and promises to ship it in a
few days.

I'm still trying to get him to comment on the differences between our I-V
curves.




Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 06:43:28 1999
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Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 09:36:29 -0400
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: info from Mizuno
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At 08:08 AM 6/1/99 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>I'm still trying to get him to comment on the differences between our I-V
>curves.

  Until you match the power supplies as Frederick, I, and others,
suggest, this may not be as efficient a use of his limited time for you
as would otherwise be possible.

  Mitchell Swartz


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Subject: Re: Mallove-Park Cold Fusion Radio Program
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June 1, 1999

Vortex,

My how time flies!

I believe 'off the public air-waves' recordings are not copyright protected.
However, transcribed recordings are copyrighted by the transcriber(he did the
work). Who knows, maybe the laws have changed.
As I understand it, by broadcasting on the air, anybody can pick it up and
thereby makes meaningless the purpose of a copyright --- you have flung it into
the 'air', so to speak.

"Copyright is the exclusive right tp reproduce, publish, and sell the matter and
form of a literary or artistic work."(dictionary)
"--- with the sole and exclusive privilage of multiplying copies of the same and
publishing and selling them "(Black's Law Dictionary)
So when the 'exclusivity' disappears by intent when the content is publicly
radiated out, then where is the copyright right?

As I understand it, this program is to be mostly in the Southern California
region. I will be recording 'off the air' of the particlar program come July ---
provided I remember right. Anybody else can too. This recording will be shipped
post-haste to either Gene or Jed for them (or anybody else) to transcribe it
into print. I would suggest playing the tape back into a speech recognition
program such as Jed has been playing with. Then with a cleaned up text, publish
it on their web and/or into print. You should not not have to recognize another
transcriber such as Burrell(?) who sells NPR transcriptions.
Another alternative is to provide a link to NPR's 'Real Radio' site at their IE
website so that a visitor can listen to the program recording.
Saturna Technologies' website has this for their Ira Flatow's Science Friday,
NPR interview program that occurred earlier. IE can use the same arrangement.

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 09:12:16 1999
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Subject: Re: Mizuno comments
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Michael Schaffer writes:

	I say all this just to emphasize that replication requires
	matching cathode geometry and current density, because current
	density is high at the cathode. It might be important to get the
	high cathode current density correct.

I think it is. Mizuno emphasizes current density.


	Does Mizuno purify his solutions, e.g. by electrolysis with
	temporary electrodes that are then removed, before the
	experiment? 

Not in this experiment, although he has often used getter cathodes before.
He does purify the solution carefully, and he inventories impurities.
Quoting the upcoming paper, section 3.2:

The electrolyte solution was prepared with Milli-Q pure distilled water
process through a filter. Heavy water (Showa Denki) was 99.75 percent pure,
with 0.077 micro Ci/dm3 tritium concentration. It was used after being
redistilled in quartz glass. Ultra pure Merck reagents were used for the
K2CO3, Na2CO3 and LiOH electrolyte. Impurities included less than 10 ppm of
Cl, SO4, SiO2 and PO4. Impurities in the alkaline metals included 5 ppm of
Ba, and 1 ppm of Ca. Other metallic impurities were Fe at 0.05 ppm maximum.
Platinum wires or mesh were used as the counter electrode and electrode
lead wires. Purity was 99.99%, with impurities including 18 ppm Rh, 2 ppm
Si, Cr, Pd, and less than 1 ppm Au, Ag, B, Ca, Cu and Fe, and no detectable
levels of other elements. Nilaco tungsten was used for the cathode (a 0.5
mm thick foil) and lead wire (1 mm in diameter), both 99.95% pure. The foil
was cut into a rectangle 10 mm by 5 mm and polished with #1500 emery paper.
The lead wire was spot welded perpendicular to the long side of the
cathode, and it too was polished with #1500 emery paper. After welding the
cathode and lead wire were cleaned with 1.0% HF and 3% HNO3 at 25 deg C for
2 hours, followed by a mixed solution of 3:1 HCl and HNO3 solution for 2
hours, to eliminate contamination. Then the sample was rinsed, the lead
wire was completely covered with a Teflon shrink wrap tube, and then the
sample was electrolyzed.

I'm sure he washes the glassware with elaborate precautions as well. I
(still) do not know what the heavy water is for.

I asked him if he thinks we will need to maintain such high levels of
purity, or whether these are only needed to detect transmutations. He says
the precautions are only needed for the transmutation studies, and we
should see excess heat even with "tap water."


	. . . if the electrolyte surface is freely open to air (I forgot. Is
Mizuno's cell as tightly covered as Little's?)

Yes, it is.


Michael T Huffman writes:

	If the way Mizuno is doing his calorimetry is similar to the way
	Scott and Vince are doing theirs, and the inner container is
	indeed quartz glass, and the copper tubing surrounding the
	quartz glass is grounded . . .

No, there is no copper tubing.



Scott Little writes:

	[Mizuno] told me that he uses "ordinary" K2CO3 (pretty much
	equivalent to our ACS grade) to observe the excess heat effect. 
	He only uses the super-pure stuff when looking for trace element
	reaction products.  He has never mentioned purification steps.

I think this is a misunderstanding. First of all, I transmitted the above
paragraph describing the purification steps to Scott two weeks ago, albeit
in less grammatical English. Second, Mizuno always uses the same reagents
as far as I know, he certainly always uses the same purified water (which
comes from a machine in the lab), and as far as I know he always looks for
reaction products. It takes days of hard work to set up an experiment; I do
not think he would go to all that trouble if he did not intend to follow up
with an analysis of the products. As for the cleanliness and purification
techniques, electrochemists do similar rituals before performing *any*
experiment, for any reason. You half expect to see one spend an hour making
a cup of tea.

These techniques are effective, by the way. It is astonishing how clean
post-experiment cathodes are at places like Hokkaido U. and Texas A&M. I
thought the post-experiment samples had not been used yet! Electrochemical
techniques are used to make the purest fluids on earth, or, to put it the
other way, a cathode attracts more dirt than any other object. Although the
Mizuno and Ohmori cathodes emerge from the cells with the mirror finish
intact, Mizuno goes through additional elaborate steps to clean the surface
again, to remove galvanized gunk before looking for transmutation products.
He washes the cathode in pure water, immerses it in analysis grade purity
acetone, and places it an ultrasonic cleaner for some time.


	Cathodes:  Mizuno is making a cathode for us and promises to
	ship it in a few days.

He is doing a heck of a lot of work for you, Scott.


	He has published this spectrum in the Japanese Journal of
	Electrochemistry.  Jed, is that the paper you're translating
	now?

No. This is a new paper. I should get the J. J. Electrochem. paper. In this
paper there is little mention of the spectrum. He says the measured the
temperature of the glow discharge with a pyrometer. I do not understand the
discussion or Fig. 11, but I gather that the temperature of a foil does not
exceed ~1000 deg C.


Frederick  Sparber writes:

	The literature on D.C. Arcs in air for an end to end arc between
	circular electrodes: Cathode Fall     10 to 20 volts . . .

	From this one can deduce several critical parameters:

	1, Electrode Spacing
	2, Electrode Geometry
	3, Water Conductivity . . .
	4, Water/Gas Temperature
	5, Cathode Material
	6, Cathode Surface Condition
	7, Barometric Pressure
	8, Power Supply Characteristics

I think it is a bad idea to deduce critical parameters. You should ask the
experimenter, or go to the site and measure these things directly. Then see
whether the literature agrees with your measurements.

That's a good list -- even if it is delimited with commas instead of
periods. These are critical parameters, especially spacing and geometry. I
think they may be quite different in the Little experiment. The color
changes prove that the chemistry is also quite different.

(Speaking of commas instead of periods, people who write telephone numbers
with periods instead of hyphens should be flogged.)


	IOW, an exact replication or else.   :-)

Quite right!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 09:40:34 1999
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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In a message dated 6/1/99 5:53:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
mica world.std.com writes:

<< The issues
 about the internal impedance of the power supply, and the other
 matters Frederick discussed, are the ones you should consider but
 do not address in your post above.    >>

The internal resistance of both Mizuno's and Scott's power supplies are 
determined by the regulation and both are so near zero compared with the 
reactor that I don't think it could make any difference in the result. 

Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 09:56:25 1999
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From: Ross Tessien <Tessien oro.net>
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>Ross Tessien has not encountered the likes of Robert Part, and perhaps he
>missed my debates with people like Dick Blue. He writes, rather naively:

I took note of them, but correct, didn't waste much time reading about the
thoughts of morons who have no open mind.  One cannot prove a thing
impossible, hence, one should firmly plant the teeth in the tongue when
confronted by an apparent contradiction to our expectations.

Personally, I only read the articles dealing with science, with rare
exception, this being one of those.


>Cringe?!? Never! Park does not cringe at the suggestion; he revels in it.
>He loves to accuse them all of being frauds, as well as lunatics, liars and
>criminals. He has done that many times, on the record, most recently at the
>APS. In 1991, he wrote in the Washington Post:

Then I change my position, slightly, from before.  Don't focus on what
Bockris etc have said they have measured.  

Go get the data specification sheets for the instruments they used to
detect neutrons, or T or whatever.  Get the sensitivity, and the resolution
specifications.  Then get the actual counts reported.

Ask:   "If this instrument reports to you that it has observed, x neutrons
in y minutes (hours) of time, where the background flux of neutrons is z,
with standard of deviation s, then, the fact that this result is 10 to 20
sigma away from the noise would lead most researchers to accept that
neutrons have in fact been measured.  Hence, two questions Mr. Park:

1)  If you assume for sake of argument, that the readings reported ***by
the instruments***  

(Notice I am depersonalizing the comment to allow the moron a way
out....continuing....)

are 10 sigma above background, and that background gives a stable reading
everytime it is checked, then, is it not reasonable to believe the
instruments under such a situation?

2)  If you assume, for sake of argument, that several such instruments in
several labs have in fact produced such measurements, then the only
explanation open is that there is some nuclear process going on, or, each
and every professor that has reported such an instance 
 has spiked the experiment and committed fraud?

Then toss in, which laboratory was the last one you visited?  And when was
that?  I expect that his answer will be back to early 91.

IOW, establish that he is parroting the same old arguments without having
updated himself via personal visits to the lab's where the work is going on.



>Ross suggest that Gene should describe the evidence. That may make an
>impression on the radio audience, if the presentation can be kept simple,
>but it will never sway Robert Park. He has seen the evidence -- I have
>mailed him papers from Los Alamos and SRI. I have handed him papers in
>person. He hands them right back -- he literally dismisses the data out of
>hand. 

Great, there is your weapon.  Ask Park on air, "Do you recall Jed Rothwell
handed you a paper at ............conference...................?  You
handed it back to him unread.  If you refuse to read the papers being
published, and you simply reject the reports out of hand, then why should
your opinion be valued?  


Hard core opponents will not read papers or look at graphs,

Get a litany of papers and graphs, with some tiny point of fact from each,
and ask if he has read so and so's paper on such and such?  His answer, NO.
 then simply say, it is interesting that so and so found tritium.  Make the
point short and sweet, don't give him time to respond, and move straight to
the next question:  "Have you read so and so's paper (a different name and
paper) on such and such?  His answer again, NO.  then simply say, it is
interesting that so and so found neutrons.  Move straight on to the next one.

 a chain of questions showing his ignorance on the work will discredit him
in the eyes of the viewers.  I don't give a damn about his opinion.  It
would be very good for me and for everyone else, if this guy is discredited
by his own ignorance on the subject.

Use a wide variety of examples to establish the fact that he is not current
with the research.


>quantitative analyses, statistics, error bars, blank experiments, or any
>other data. They will never discuss these issues. They have no idea what
>the cold fusion researchers actually claim. They address all subtle
>scientific questions with a blunderbuss. At the APS, McKubre read a paper
>by Ed Storms describing, among other things, the index of expansion of
>palladium and the excess volume problem.  

OK, on a more important tact, what, in a nut shell, is the "excess volume
problem" as I don't follow everything that closely either (I am doing my
own things and have missed that statement)?  did they measure the density
of loaded or unloaded material or something, is that what you mean?




 If we ever
>succeed in convincing the world that CF is real, 

This is coming faster than you know.

rt

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 10:01:31 1999
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At 12:31 PM 6/1/99 EDT, BriggsRO aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 6/1/99 5:53:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
>mica world.std.com writes:
>
><< The issues
> about the internal impedance of the power supply, and the other
> matters Frederick discussed, are the ones you should consider but
> do not address in your post above.    >>
>
>The internal resistance of both Mizuno's and Scott's power supplies are 
>determined by the regulation and both are so near zero compared with the 
>reactor that I don't think it could make any difference in the result. 
>
>Bob

  Not only might it, but the lead resistances may also
make, in some systems, an impedance contribution that should
be considered.  These are complicated time-variant systems
involving complex dielectric materials, double layers, and
electrodes of time varying composition and in some of the 
cf systems this has mattered.  
  In one of the system discussed in the thread or a previous
one, I thought someone suggested a 'negative resistance'
may have been observed which suggests that, if true, at some
point in time the internal complex impedance of the supply 
ought be considered more closely.

    Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 10:36:34 1999
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I have recorded voltage and current traces from my incandescent W cell.
They may be viewed at:

http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/waveform.html

I don't see any obvious evidence that my power supply is limiting the cell
current...but the picture it not perfectly clear either.  Comments are most
welcome.

Also included there is a close-up photo of the incandescent W cathode.  It
doesn't do the real sight justice, however.  I need to figure out some way
to trick this camera into doing a short exposure without the flash...



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 10:38:22 1999
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----- Original Message -----
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: Mizuno comments

If  I interpret "Automatic Crossover"  in Scott's Power Supply, from
Constant Voltage to Constant Current correctly, how can the discharge go
down the Negative Resistance (High Current) Curve?

Regards,    Frederick
>
>
> At 12:31 PM 6/1/99 EDT, BriggsRO aol.com wrote:
> >In a message dated 6/1/99 5:53:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> >mica world.std.com writes:
> >
> ><< The issues
> > about the internal impedance of the power supply, and the other
> > matters Frederick discussed, are the ones you should consider but
> > do not address in your post above.    >>
> >
> >The internal resistance of both Mizuno's and Scott's power supplies are
> >determined by the regulation and both are so near zero compared with the
> >reactor that I don't think it could make any difference in the result.
> >
> >Bob
>
>   Not only might it, but the lead resistances may also
> make, in some systems, an impedance contribution that should
> be considered.  These are complicated time-variant systems
> involving complex dielectric materials, double layers, and
> electrodes of time varying composition and in some of the
> cf systems this has mattered.
>   In one of the system discussed in the thread or a previous
> one, I thought someone suggested a 'negative resistance'
> may have been observed which suggests that, if true, at some
> point in time the internal complex impedance of the supply
> ought be considered more closely.
>
>     Mitchell Swartz
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 11:16:06 1999
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Subject: Re: Mizuno comments
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At 11:31 6/1/99 -0600, Frederick  Sparber wrote:

>If  I interpret "Automatic Crossover"  in Scott's Power Supply, from
>Constant Voltage to Constant Current correctly, how can the discharge go
>down the Negative Resistance (High Current) Curve?

First of all, there is no noticeable "negative" resistance behavior in
Mizuno's cell.  In fact, when the incandescence starts the cell's impedance
INCREASES dramatically.

Second, you can essentially disable the automatic crossover by setting the
knob for either parameter at max and controlling with the other.  Then,
within the range of the supply, it functions as either CC or CV.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 11:38:05 1999
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are already on order from Technical Glass Products.  $53 each, custom made
to order, del'y: 1 week!



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 12:15:32 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mallove-Park Cold Fusion Radio Program
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At 7:54 AM 6/1/99, Akira Kawasaki wrote:
[snip]
>I believe 'off the public air-waves' recordings are not copyright protected.
>However, transcribed recordings are copyrighted by the transcriber(he did the
>work). Who knows, maybe the laws have changed.
>As I understand it, by broadcasting on the air, anybody can pick it up and
>thereby makes meaningless the purpose of a copyright --- you have flung it into
>the 'air', so to speak.
>
>"Copyright is the exclusive right tp reproduce, publish, and sell the
>matter and
>form of a literary or artistic work."(dictionary)
>"--- with the sole and exclusive privilage of multiplying copies of the
>same and
>publishing and selling them "(Black's Law Dictionary)
>So when the 'exclusivity' disappears by intent when the content is publicly
>radiated out, then where is the copyright right?


Broadcast of copyrighted material does not destroy the copyright.  However,
AFAIK, it is legal to record material off the air for personal use in your
own home.  It may not be legal to *receive* some off the air material
without paying, however, e.g. satellite broadcasts, or to tape phone
conversations.  I assume copyright (thus the right to reception from the
air, copyright ownership of recorded material, by phone or from the air,
and thus rights to publication) to be federal matters, and the actual
physical tape (or even document) ownership, as well as the right to tape a
phone conversation to be governed by local laws.  Phone tapping without
knowledge of the any of the conversants and without a warrant is of course
unconstitutional and a violation of federal law.

Material is now copyrighted at the moment of creation.  The author or
artist has instant rights, unless given away in some manner.  This is why I
think the question of copyright for a talk show is interesting, especialy
one also recored by phone, since, without prior agreement, the show
consists of mixed copyright ownership material.  I assume the stations
require some kind of agreement before allowing someone on the air, though.

The above is of course all personal opinion.  It is clearly important to
get an agreement beforehand, as well as assistance from an attorney, before
publishing material from a talk show.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 14:24:54 -0500
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Advice for Mallove -Park Cold Fusion Radio Program
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>>Ross Tessien has not encountered the likes of Robert Park, and perhaps he
>>missed my debates with people like Dick Blue. He writes, rather naively:
>
>I took note of them, but correct, didn't waste much time reading about the
>thoughts of morons who have no open mind.  One cannot prove a thing
>impossible, hence, one should firmly plant the teeth in the tongue when
>confronted by an apparent contradiction to our expectations.
>
>Personally, I only read the articles dealing with science, with rare
>exception, this being one of those.
>
>
>>Cringe?!? Never! Park does not cringe at the suggestion; he revels in it.
>>He loves to accuse them all of being frauds, as well as lunatics, liars and
>>criminals. He has done that many times, on the record, most recently at the
>>APS. In 1991, he wrote in the Washington Post:
>
>Then I change my position, slightly, from before.  Don't focus on what
>Bockris etc have said they have measured.
>
>Go get the data specification sheets for the instruments they used to
>detect neutrons, or T or whatever.  Get the sensitivity, and the resolution
>specifications.  Then get the actual counts reported.
>
>Ask:   "If this instrument reports to you that it has observed, x neutrons
>in y minutes (hours) of time, where the background flux of neutrons is z,
>with standard of deviation s, then, the fact that this result is 10 to 20
>sigma away from the noise would lead most researchers to accept that
>neutrons have in fact been measured.  Hence, two questions Mr. Park:
>
>1)  If you assume for sake of argument, that the readings reported ***by
>the instruments***
>
>(Notice I am depersonalizing the comment to allow the moron a way
>out....continuing....)
>
>are 10 sigma above background, and that background gives a stable reading
>everytime it is checked, then, is it not reasonable to believe the
>instruments under such a situation?

***{If Park is an evader, as Jed suggests, then at this point he will
either claim that those who reported these instrument readings were lying,
or else he will simply set his mouth in motion and talk on until the
audience, the moderator, and Gene, have all forgotten the question to which
he is responding. Either way, this approach will be fruitless. --Mitchell
Jones}***

>
>2)  If you assume, for sake of argument, that several such instruments in
>several labs have in fact produced such measurements, then the only
>explanation open is that there is some nuclear process going on, or, each
>and every professor that has reported such an instance
> has spiked the experiment and committed fraud?

***{This won't work, either, for the same reasons given above: every time
you address a question or an argument to an evader, you merely give him an
opportunity to take the floor. In response, he will set his mouth in motion
and will talk on until the audience no longer remembers the question, the
answer, the issue, or even their names. :-) --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Then toss in, which laboratory was the last one you visited?  And when was
>that?  I expect that his answer will be back to early 91.

***{Assuming Jed's description of the guy is accurate, I expect that Park
will merely set his mouth in motion again, wasting more time and providing
nothing of substance for Gene or the audience to focus upon. My advice to
Gene, therefore, is simple: once you get the floor, ignore Park as if he is
a potted plant. Your job is to present your case. To do that, you should
hold the floor until you are interrupted by the moderator. *Never* address
any remarks to Park when you already have the floor, because if you do so
you will either give him an excuse to interrupt or else will prompt the
moderator to ask him to respond. Every time that happens, more time is
going to be wasted while he drones on about nothing. Also, be prepared to
interrupt him if he provides the slightest pretext for doing so, and, once
you are talking, you should return quickly to the mode of presenting your
case to the audience while ignoring him. For example, if he accuses a CF
researcher of being dishonest, you should interrupt him instantly, label
his comments as scurrilous twaddle, and turn *immediately* back to
presenting your case without missing a beat. Bottom line: you need to go
into this event assuming in advance that Park's goal will be to obfuscate,
not to argue the issues. Result: your goal must be to deliver the most
cogent *monologue* that you can. If you treat an evader as if he is a
reasoning opponent, then you will play into his hands. --Mitchell Jones}***

[rest snipped]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 12:46:53 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: info from Mizuno
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At 8:08 AM 6/1/99, Scott Little wrote:
>Over the weekend Mizuno commented on several issues:
>
>Kyoto lab:  Another lab in Kyoto has replicated his experiment (using a
>cathode that Mizuno supplied) and they are observing 300 watts out for 200
>watts in!!  They ran their cell at 120V.  Calorimetry consists of a
>temperature rise method with the entire cell (four liters of electrolyte!)
>housed in a Dewar.
>


This is fantastic, especially since a differing method of calorimetry adds
much to the credibility!

If their power supply is very different then that may be also yield useful
information?

Just a thought, and probably immaterial:  in my electrospark experiments I
noticed more intense results when the cell electrodes were bridged with a
low capacitance HV ceramic capacitor, which I think permitted fast rise
time sparks, and possibly created a HF tank oscillator.   If you do another
experiment with negaive results you might want to try adding a small
capcitor in parallel to the cell before shutting it down, just to see what
happens.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 13:20:27 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
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Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 16:05:41 -0400
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>are already on order from Technical Glass Products.  $53 each, custom made
>to order, del'y: 1 week!

OOOUCH!

Nice photos and scopework, good luck.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 13:30:54 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Excess volume
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Ross Tessien asked about excess volume. I'm looking through papers by
Storms to find a short definition I can crib . . . But I don't see one . .
. So I guess I'll make one up.

As hydrogen loads into palladium occupying lattice sites, it pushes the
palladium atoms apart; the metal swells slightly. This increase in volume
has been predicted from theory and measured in experiments. For example,
with 50 percent loading in the beta phase, volume should increase 0.09
percent. If it increases significantly more than this, you have excess
volume, which means cracks and voids have formed within the palladium, and
the sample will not produce excess energy. Storms looked up the numbers for
deuterium and provided the following canned equation in Ref. 2.

Where:

IV = initial volume
FV = final volume
D/Pd ratio is calculated from the weight change of the sample

Excess volume fraction = ((FV-IV/IV)-(0.0172+0.14125 D/Pd)

When the excess volume fraction is greater than 0.02 the palladium will not
produce significant excess energy, and it should not be used. Cracks and
voids do not usually form until the palladium loads to roughly 70%, so you
cannot measure excess volume fraction until your other measurements
indicate the cathode has loaded to ~70%. You can measure loading by the
weight of the cathode, cathode resistivity, or the oxygen pressure in the
head space of a closed cell. Whatever works for you, as we said back in 1965.

Storms measures volume with a hand-held micrometer, and the weight of the
cathode to +/- 0.1 mg.

For more information, see:

1. Infinite Energy issue 24, p. 42

2. E. Storms, "How to Produce the Pons Fleischmann Effect," Fusion
Technology, 1995

3. E. Storms and C. Talcott-storms, "The Effect of Hydriding on the
Physical Structure of Palladium and on the Release of Contained Tritium,"
Fusion Technology, 20, 246 (1991).

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 13:45:09 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Advice for Mallove -Park Cold Fusion Radio Program
In-Reply-To: <v04011700b379d3793370 [207.8.127.199]>
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Mitchell Jones writes:

>***{Assuming Jed's description of the guy is accurate, I expect that Park
>will merely set his mouth in motion again . . .

Don't take my word for it! You can judge Park by his own pronouncements.
And you will find it easier to do that when I provide the reference to the
quote. Voila:

2014287 BOOK WORLD - The Fizzle in the Fusion. The Washington Post, May 15,
1991, FINAL Edition By: Robert L. Park Section: Style, p. b04 Story Type:
Review Line Count: 68    Word Count: 752

That's from Lexis-Nexus on-line, a marvelous resource.
http://www.lexis-nexis.com/lncc/

You can also read Park's weekly "What's New" columns at the APS web site
(http://iptsg.epfl.ch/aps/WN/). He does not mention CF often, but when he
does, it is clear that he has not budged since March 1989.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 15:35:24 1999
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Scott
	You won't see the negative resistance portion in general. The
circuit operating point jumps from one stable operating point to another,
avoiding the negative resistance portion of the V-I curve, unless you have a
large resistance in series so the total resistace is positive. The jumps in
the operating point are the "evidence" for a negative resistance portion of
the curve. Many electronic circuits operate this way. For example consider a
flip-flop circuit, such as used as a memory element in the old vacuum tube
computers. The active region has a negative resistance, which only is seen
during transitions between states. You have something similar going on in
your circuit, I am pretty sure.

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Scott Little[SMTP:little eden.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Tuesday, June 01, 1999 11:04 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: Mizuno comments
> 
> At 11:31 6/1/99 -0600, Frederick  Sparber wrote:
> 
> >If  I interpret "Automatic Crossover"  in Scott's Power Supply, from
> >Constant Voltage to Constant Current correctly, how can the discharge go
> >down the Negative Resistance (High Current) Curve?
> 
> First of all, there is no noticeable "negative" resistance behavior in
> Mizuno's cell.  In fact, when the incandescence starts the cell's
> impedance
> INCREASES dramatically.
> 
> Second, you can essentially disable the automatic crossover by setting the
> knob for either parameter at max and controlling with the other.  Then,
> within the range of the supply, it functions as either CC or CV.
> 
> 
> 
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 15:56:56 1999
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Subject: Another GIT Ad for Mallove Talk
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Cold Fusion

Dr. Eugene Mavlove, editor of Infinite Energy Magazine.

Wednesday, June 2, 6:00pm, Student Center Theater.
All students and faculty are welcome.


What is cold fusion?
Is cold fusion chemical, nuclear, or something else?
What is the difference between power and energy?
Why doesnít cold fusion produce dangerous ionizing radiation?
What is ìhotî fusion?
How does cold fusion differ from hot fusion?
Are there theories that can explain cold fusion?

Brought to you by the Lyceum Series, a committee of the Student Government Association

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 16:43:32 1999
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Subject: Re: Advice for Mallove -Park Cold Fusion Radio Program
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Ask the opponent:

"Do you think there is any reason you should spend the time to read any of
these papers, or are you confident that they are all absolutely the work of
people who are wrong, or frauds?

All you have to do is to establish to the listener, that this guy has not
done his homework because he is certain that the reports are false.  That
will lead to his comments being dismissed by the audience.  We don't give a
damn what the critiques think.  What we care about is that the audience
listens, and comes to the conclusion that the field ought to be given a
second look.  IOW, you need to establish that there is sufficient
controversy, that the issue ought to be funded well enough to remove the doubt.

Once the general public becomes aware that the controversy did not in fact
die, and that instead, it is fluorishing, then public interest will wax.
All we need is to establish a trend of increasing frequency of items being
printed, aired, whatever, and the investors we need to contact will notice
that trend and send their investigators to learn more about this possible
investment opportunity.  Don't under estimate the way investors work, they
are watching what we are doing, and waiting for a signal that indicates
that the odds of profiting from this are greater than the odds of failing.  

We are very close to "critical mass" on that impression issue in the
business community, and several investors are already taking note and
investing in the opportunities.  The more **main stream** publicity that
can be had, the better.  It doesn't matter what the medium is, it only
matters that the audience is large, and preferably vocal.  Hence, things
like Art Bell are good, but things like NBC News, Good Morning America,
Today, etc. are better.

Jed, you and Gene ought to send copies of your new video to that NBC???
news reporter that has done a couple of on going series on the cold fusion
industry.  He did one in 96 I think it was, and another one earlier.  I
have it somewhere on video.  Anyway, he is their science advisor, and he
was skeptical, but has maintained an open mind in the sense of putting P&F
etc in front of the camera to voice their opinions.  Tom something I think
is his name.

Anyway, you ought to send that video to a bunch of newspapers, magazines,
etc. (ie directly to the article writers in the scientific arena for each
journal).  That ought to gain you some main stream publicity if you get the
IE name into the broadcast as a resource for further information on the
subject, and hence, this could be worked into being a marketing expediture
for you guys to gain in readership.

Just a thought.

rt


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 17:03:12 1999
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Thanks.  Is issue 24, the 10 year celebration issue, ie, volume 4, issue 24?

Also, what are typical numbers for the percentage increase in volume?  ie,
I read a percent increase of 0.09 is typical below, and then you go into
"excess volume", which I assume is meant to say, levels greater than the
above, for example, you mention 0.02 excess volume, so I take it that this
is 0.11 percent increase in volume as compared to the un loaded material,
correct?  

The question is:  How large a range of values have been observed?  ie, what
is the largest percent increase in volume anyone has measured?

rt


At 04:24 PM 6/1/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Ross Tessien asked about excess volume. I'm looking through papers by
>Storms to find a short definition I can crib . . . But I don't see one . .
>. So I guess I'll make one up.
>
>As hydrogen loads into palladium occupying lattice sites, it pushes the
>palladium atoms apart; the metal swells slightly. This increase in volume
>has been predicted from theory and measured in experiments. For example,
>with 50 percent loading in the beta phase, volume should increase 0.09
>percent. If it increases significantly more than this, you have excess
>volume, which means cracks and voids have formed within the palladium, and
>the sample will not produce excess energy. Storms looked up the numbers for
>deuterium and provided the following canned equation in Ref. 2.
>
>Where:
>
>IV = initial volume
>FV = final volume
>D/Pd ratio is calculated from the weight change of the sample
>
>Excess volume fraction = ((FV-IV/IV)-(0.0172+0.14125 D/Pd)
>
>When the excess volume fraction is greater than 0.02 the palladium will not
>produce significant excess energy, and it should not be used. Cracks and
>voids do not usually form until the palladium loads to roughly 70%, so you
>cannot measure excess volume fraction until your other measurements
>indicate the cathode has loaded to ~70%. You can measure loading by the
>weight of the cathode, cathode resistivity, or the oxygen pressure in the
>head space of a closed cell. Whatever works for you, as we said back in 1965.
>
>Storms measures volume with a hand-held micrometer, and the weight of the
>cathode to +/- 0.1 mg.
>
>For more information, see:
>
>1. Infinite Energy issue 24, p. 42
>
>2. E. Storms, "How to Produce the Pons Fleischmann Effect," Fusion
>Technology, 1995
>
>3. E. Storms and C. Talcott-storms, "The Effect of Hydriding on the
>Physical Structure of Palladium and on the Release of Contained Tritium,"
>Fusion Technology, 20, 246 (1991).
>
>- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 17:12:09 1999
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I was just curious as to whether or not the following email would lead to
Park conceding that if a working device is demonstrated, then he would
recant.  That is the first step toward eventually recanting.  We will see
what his comments are I hope.

Basically I assumed that we will eventually have a theory to explain what
is happening, and, working devices based on superior application of same.
One would think that with the device and the theory in hand, that he should
concede the match.  He may say we will never accomplish those things, but
if some day we have, then the question is, will he retract his comments
regarding CF over the years, or will he just hide from his past and avoid
the topic out of embarasement?

Later, rt
****************************************************************************
*****

I am curious as to your scientific curiosity, vs, prejudice regarding CF.
If I could show you:

1) An intelligible reason that CF devices could be producing nuclear reactions 
2) A dramatically superior method of applying the concepts 
3) A device producing tens of KW of energy, continuously, without being
supplied any power

Would you consider changing your negatively biased position, based on the
above 3 criteria?

If not, what criteria would you require in order to print articles that
promote a new technology, capable of driving nuclear reactions, given that
cold fusion was based on really poor designs of this new improved technology?

Ross Tessien 
PresidentImpulse Devices, Inc. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 17:30:39 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 20:27:10 EDT
Subject: PLEC:  Scott's cell open or closed?
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Scott, 

You've made reference to catalyst pellets and a recombiner.  

Are you running a closed cell or an open cell?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 17:32:19 1999
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Subject: H2K:  Arc or Glow Discharge?
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In message Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 04:08:07 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote 
that in an Ohmori-type plasma electrolysis cell, the resistance through the 
plasma might actually be lower than in the fluid, during the time that 
current actually flows, "If the current through the gas sheath is actually 
carried by arcs in the gas"; but if the current through the gas (plasma?) is 
more like a glow discharge, then the resistance might be higher.

Robin, would you consider Vince Cockeram's experiment to be an arc experiment 
or a glow discharge experiment?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 17:45:02 1999
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Message-Id: <199906020038.UAA14231 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: Advice for Mallove -Park Cold Fusion Radio Program
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 99 20:39:32 -0000
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From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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All,

 Thanks for all this on-going advice, but I think you've all saturated by 
now.  Is this somewhat like the anticipation of a prize fight?  
Furthermore, I am pretty much my own man adn I have LOTS of radio 
experience. I have studied Park extensively over the years as many of you 
known from my "Words to Eat" column in IE  and I have a thick file on all 
his nonssense. However, let me assure you that I intend to present the 
MAXIMUM information fact density imaginable on cold fusion results for 
such a  radio program.   This will prove at the very least that those 
saying cold fusion is pathological science are blowing smoke -- that the 
currrent compendious experimental record and commercial activities 
deserve intense investigation.

I like Mitchell Jones' advice below, which is pretty much what I  
intended to do anyway. Sorry for not being present for much of this 
advice-giving dialogue, but I am finding myself far too busy these days 
to adequately address even some of my moe critical e-mailing!

On July 7th Park will be pulped -- except in the minds of those nattering 
TB skeptics. Trust me.

Best wishes,

Gene Mallove


>***{Assuming Jed's description of the guy is accurate, I expect that Park
>will merely set his mouth in motion again, wasting more time and providing
>nothing of substance for Gene or the audience to focus upon. My advice to
>Gene, therefore, is simple: once you get the floor, ignore Park as if he is
>a potted plant. Your job is to present your case. To do that, you should
>hold the floor until you are interrupted by the moderator. *Never* address
>any remarks to Park when you already have the floor, because if you do so
>you will either give him an excuse to interrupt or else will prompt the
>moderator to ask him to respond. Every time that happens, more time is
>going to be wasted while he drones on about nothing. Also, be prepared to
>interrupt him if he provides the slightest pretext for doing so, and, once
>you are talking, you should return quickly to the mode of presenting your
>case to the audience while ignoring him. For example, if he accuses a CF
>researcher of being dishonest, you should interrupt him instantly, label
>his comments as scurrilous twaddle, and turn *immediately* back to
>presenting your case without missing a beat. Bottom line: you need to go
>into this event assuming in advance that Park's goal will be to obfuscate,
>not to argue the issues. Result: your goal must be to deliver the most
>cogent *monologue* that you can. If you treat an evader as if he is a
>reasoning opponent, then you will play into his hands. --Mitchell Jones}***
>
>[rest snipped]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 19:54:11 1999
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 22:49:04 EDT
Subject: Re: H2K:  Arc or Glow Discharge?
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In a message dated 06/01/1999 17:30:01 Pacific Daylight Time, 
Tstolper aol.com writes:

> In message Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 04:08:07 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote 
>  that in an Ohmori-type plasma electrolysis cell, the resistance through 
the 
>  plasma might actually be lower than in the fluid, during the time that 
>  current actually flows, "If the current through the gas sheath is actually 
>  carried by arcs in the gas"; but if the current through the gas (plasma?) 
is 
>  more like a glow discharge, then the resistance might be higher.
>  Robin, would you consider Vince Cockeram's experiment to be an arc 
> experiment or a glow discharge experiment?
>  Tom Stolper

 Let me add to this Tom that when the cell pressure is greater than
~100 torr fill the discharge forms an arc discharge. At below 100 torr the
glow fills the entire volume of the tube with a soft glow, above 100 torr
a thin arc, almost invisible can be seen if the lab lights are off, probably
lots of hard UV which doesn't make it through the tube walls. Also
the temperature goes up dramatically again probably due to the thermal
conductivity of the H2 fill. Tube current increases also.
 Above is with just H2 in the tube with carbon electrodes.
 No tests yet with K in the present configuration.

 All the above begs the question:
 Is it better to run a glow discharge or an arc discharge?
 Arc discharge is tough, LOTS of electrical noise
to confuse the meters but the steps I have taken should help...I hope.

 That's what I'm trying to find out. Tests will be run at fill pressures from
10 torr to ~150 torr fill with H2 to find best C/watt zone, then add the K and
see what effect that has.

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas Nevada
702-254-2122

Also here a (non)progress report. As posted earlier, one of my good
RMS meters is out for repair and calibration. Probably 2 weeks. So
work is at a standstill until I get it back.   Vince

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 20:10:40 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: info from Mizuno
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If high frequency transients are key to the energy production, then the
cables from the power supply, and the cell geometry, may be more important
than the power supply itself.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 20:36:36 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: H2K:  Arc or Glow Discharge?
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 03:29:20 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Tue, 1 Jun 1999 20:27:07 EDT, Tstolper aol.com wrote:

>In message Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 04:08:07 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote 
>that in an Ohmori-type plasma electrolysis cell, the resistance through the 
>plasma might actually be lower than in the fluid, during the time that 
>current actually flows, "If the current through the gas sheath is actually 
>carried by arcs in the gas"; but if the current through the gas (plasma?) is 
>more like a glow discharge, then the resistance might be higher.
>
>Robin, would you consider Vince Cockeram's experiment to be an arc experiment 
>or a glow discharge experiment?
[snip]
I suspect it is more of an arc experiment, though I have never seen it,
so I really don't know. Vince..?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 21:06:28 1999
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Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:04:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: CA source in electrolysis
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Ed Wall:

I just read again in INfinite Energy about Ca in the cell filtrate after
your plasma electrolysis discharge experiments.

One possible source of Ca is the glass cell wall. CaO is a component of
most glasses. The arc discharge, high temperature and slightly alkaline
solution all work to dissolve glass. However, I have no idea whether the
rate is rapid enough to account for your observations. Just a suggestion
for another test for you to do!
===
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 21:19:02 1999
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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Anode Spots; Ball Lightning?
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 22:09:40 -0600
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In an arc discharge; "If the current to the anode is not sufficient to
maintain the discharge, spherical luminous plasmas that are called Anode
Spots or Fireballs form on the anode. Their formation and size depend on the
ionization potential, the background pressure, and possible impurities in
the host gas. These Plasmas are usually found at an imperfection in an
otherwise smooth surface where the electric field is larger. Once formed,
they are very stable and can exist for hours.

Experiments have shown that anode spots have an electric potential that is
slightly greater than the ambient plasma in which they reside. The
indication is that some of the higher-mobility electrons have escaped,
leaving the anode spot with  a slight excess positive charge. Under certain
conditions, more than one anode spot can form. If a circular anode contains
an edge in the shape of a sharp lip, the additional anode spots will be
located as far from each other as possible on the circular lip. Two anode
spots will be at the opposite ends of the diameter, three will be at the
corners of an equilateral triangle, four will be at the corners of a square,
and so forth. The mutual repulsion of anode spots and their search for a
stable equilibrium position result from the fact that each one has
approximately the same amount of net positive charge enclosed within it.

If a positive pulse is applied to the anode, the high-density Anode Spot
explodes into the lower-density ambient plasma. "

Positive Charge Clusters?     :-)

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 21:53:40 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Anode Spots; Ball Lightning?
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 00:48:58 -0400
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If a positive pulse is applied to the anode, the high-density Anode Spot
explodes into the lower-density ambient plasma. "

Positive Charge Clusters?     :-)

Regards,     Frederick

Hi Fred,

        Can these Anode Spots be shaken off the anode mechanically?

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  1 23:04:05 1999
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Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 23:59:04 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
Organization: Energy K System
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Ross Tessien wrote:

> Thanks.  Is issue 24, the 10 year celebration issue, ie, volume 4, issue 24?
>
> Also, what are typical numbers for the percentage increase in volume?  ie,
> I read a percent increase of 0.09 is typical below, and then you go into
> "excess volume", which I assume is meant to say, levels greater than the
> above, for example, you mention 0.02 excess volume, so I take it that this
> is 0.11 percent increase in volume as compared to the un loaded material,
> correct?
>
> The question is:  How large a range of values have been observed?  ie, what
> is the largest percent increase in volume anyone has measured?
>
>

The definition given by Jed is correct.  A 2% excess means that the (measured
volume)-(ideal volume)/(ideal  volume) is equal to 2%.  I have measured palladium
having values between 1% (essentially zero) to 16%. Because excess increases as
composition is increased above PdD0.7, the values need to be compared at the same
composition.  The given values are extrapolated to PdD0.85. Repeated loading
causes the excess to increase each time.  However, samples having a very low
value show very little change upon reloading.  In other words, if the sample
forms cracks, the cracks will increase each time the sample is loaded.  If the
sample does not crack, reloading  has little effect.  Most palladium has about
4-5% excess the first time it is loaded.  I have produced as much as 30% upon
repeated reloading.  Please consider that these are average values for a sample.
Palladium is so nonuniform that some regions within a sample will have no cracks
will other regions are a mess.  The amount of nuclear activity will depend on how
much of the sample is crack-free.  Consequently, every piece of palladium will
behave differently, with most materials being so inactive that only the most
sensitive calorimeter will see an effect.  Rarely, a piece is found which is
mostly crack-free and is found to be very active.  The conditions required to
prevent crack formation are not well known outside of Johnson-Matthey company.

Ed Storms




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  2 00:48:43 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: info from Mizuno
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I don't know if you are still using the bank of four 100 uF capacitors
accross the cell, but if so, maybe the value is way too high?  It might
make sense to use inductors on each lead, to block HF back to the power
supply, and use a much smaller cap across the cell to accomidate the HF
oscillation.  Would be nice to have a variable capacitor to tune for
maximum intensity, maybe made of a sheet of glass and sliding sheet metal
plates.

I realize this is beyond the scope of your present work, which is
replication, but just more food for thought.  It is difficult to know the
EM characteristics of the test leads you are replicating.  The suggested
inductors and bypass cap should improve your current measurement though, if
taken prior to the inductors.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  2 01:19:04 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: info from Mizuno
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Something that may give you some unexpected information is placing your
scope in x-y mode, with voltage on the x axis and current on the y axis, or
vice versa. In my experience, this is useful for resonance tuning, but also
for learning about the state of the cathode surface, and the effect of
temperature, etc.  For example, in sodium metasilicate runs, in 60 Hz mode,
both AC and pulsed DC, I have observed what I think was the formation of a
dielectric film on the electrodes by seeing a phase change across the
electrodes indicative of the capacitance of the coating(s).  This results
in a hysteresis loop that looks somehwat like an eye.  Sparks perturb the
x-y eye, giving it lashes.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  2 02:17:41 1999
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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Michael T Huffman <knuke LCIA.COM>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: Anode Spots; Ball Lightning?

I don't know, Knuke.  That was the extent of the article on them.

Regards,   Frederick


> If a positive pulse is applied to the anode, the high-density Anode Spot
> explodes into the lower-density ambient plasma. "
> 
> Positive Charge Clusters?     :-)
> 
> Regards,     Frederick
> 
> Hi Fred,
> 
>         Can these Anode Spots be shaken off the anode mechanically?
> 
> Knuke
> 
> 
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 
> 

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 http://www.edm.net/~pmiller/graphics/gen4.jpg

A typical "bad hair" day.  

FJS

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  2 03:50:22 1999
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Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 06:43:33 -0400
From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Mizuno comments
Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
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Scott comments on the appearance of his cathode after a run:

>> (4) He says that the dark appearance of my cathode after the run is
unusual.  He says that his cathodes that show excess heat are usually "very
brilliant" after the run.  This could be a critically important difference.
 I presently have no idea why mine turned dark. <<

I have just read an article in the FT (2 June) p.15, by Simon Hadlington
dealing with 'Sonochemistry'

He quotes the latest info from Coventry University (GB) by professor Tim
Mason, Director of Sonochemistry about the uses of cavitation for the
extraction of products in plants for medical and other uses.

Tucked in at the end is the following, which might suggest what is
happening in Mizuno's cell:

"The ultrasound also appeared to improve the efficiency of the [plating]
process"......."Furthermore, the jet [produced by the collapsing bubble]
hitting the surface seems to enhance the *brightness of the finish*."

"It appears the temperatures in such a system may be more than 10,000ºC.
*This opens up the possibility of using the bubble as a micro-reactor in
which nuclear fusion reactions could be engineered*"

Could it be that there is something in an OU cell which produces resonation
at a frequency which generates cavitation at the cathode, enough to
brighten but not destroy the surface, and to produce some kind of fusion
reaction?

I know we are talking of dc, but funny things can happen a liquid-filled
cavity with bubbling at the electrodes, and there just might be a critical
geometry/current density/temp. etc etc structure which enables OU to happen
- regardless of the materials involved (within reason).

Just my 2pennorth.  Norman Horwood

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  2 06:21:22 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Michael:

I appreciate the suggestion.  That is a check we have not considered because
the arc was some distance from the Ball canning jar glass and the Ca
concentration was so high (229 mg/l).  We still have no idea what caused it.

The last series of runs had 5 samples taken, one after 50 minutes, another
after 100 minutes, etc., in anticipation of finding an increasing
concentration of Ca.  Actually no significant levels were found at all!
This was a bit disappointing, but there was at least one significant
difference between the circumstances that led to high Ca concentration
detection and the circumstances that did not.  One is the arc voltage.  It
was lower for the runs where no Ca was detected.  I think it unlikely that
the glass reached a significantly higher temperature because it is separated
from the arc (~3/4") by water that cannot exceed 100C, so this data tends to
preclude the possibility of the high levels of Ca coming from that glass.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  2 06:32:33 1999
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First of all, the latest from Mizuno:

I asked him to comment on the differences between my I vs V curve and his:

>OK, I think the curve is almost same with my data, but you know the curve
>would be changed with temperature and hysterisis. I think your data is very
>good, no ploblem.

I asked him to examine the photo of my glowing cathode.  He said:

>It is same as my sample

I asked him to examine the waveforms I posted on the web and to comment on
the differences between our power supplies.  He said:

>I think your power suplly is enough to do discharge. I saw same waveform as
>you. I think the form of A-3 is may be coused from the AC source, because I
>have seen the form even if I did not discharge the sample. I think you can
>see the form before experiment. And others is almost same as my form.

I thanked him for his invaluable assistance in this endeavor and apologized
for taking up so much of his time.  He said:

>Do not mind, this is my obligation, I really want you will replicate the
>excess heat.

Regarding the cathodes he's sending, he said:

>Today I sent you sample. There are 3 samples;Two of them are Nilaco,you can
>see very brilliant and different area, another is little bit of rough
>surface supplied by Nissin EM co.. All the lead supplied by Nilaco and plate
>is of 99.95 % of purity. You can receive in few days.

I will endeavor to express to Dr. Mizuno my sincere thanks for his
wonderfully supportive efforts.  If more CF researchers were like
him...(sigh!)

Oh, I also asked him about the heavy water mentioned in the paper Jed is
translating.  He said it was just for one set of experiments in which he
tried to observe neutrons coming from the cell.

Meanwhile, back on Vortex:

Hank Scudder said:

>You won't see the negative resistance portion in general. The
>circuit operating point jumps from one stable operating point to another,

Maybe that's right, Hank, but I want to make sure everybody realizes
exactly how unusual the V vs I curve for this cell is:

V|
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |       * * 
 |    *     *
 |* *        * 
 |             * 
 |               *  
 |                    *    *  
 |_______________________________
                       I
The plot above is the usual V vs I curve for electrical discharge in gas.
The downward sloping region is the "negative resistance" area that folks
always bring up when discussing arcs.

V|  *
 |  *
 |  *
 |  *
 |    *
 |       *
 |        *
 |       *
 |     *
 |   *  
 | *
 |_________________________
                       I
This is the V vs I curve for this experiment!  Mizuno plotted it the other
way around....I vs V....so it only superficially resembled the first plot.

Tom Stolper said:

>You've made reference to catalyst pellets and a recombiner.  
>Are you running a closed cell or an open cell?

The cell is open.  The recombiner, when employed during our first series of
experiments solely for gas analysis purposes, was situated outside the
calorimeter enclosure separated from the PLEC cell by several feet of
tubing and flame arrestors!

Horace said:

>If high frequency transients are key to the energy production, then the
>cables from the power supply, and the cell geometry, may be more important
>than the power supply itself.

Indeed this could turn out to be a critical issue.

and Norman Horwood said:

>"The ultrasound also appeared to improve the efficiency of the [plating]
>process"......."Furthermore, the jet [produced by the collapsing bubble]
>hitting the surface seems to enhance the *brightness of the finish*."

>From the sound emitted by the cell during operation, it would not surprise
me at all to learn that the cathode surface is under cavitation attack.
Thanks for bringing this up.

I'm still working on making the calorimeter better.  It'll probably be
tomorrow before the next run occurs.

Thanks for all the discussion and ideas.




Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  2 09:39:23 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Mizuno comments
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:36:20 -0400
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Norm wrote:
>I know we are talking of dc, but funny things can happen a liquid-filled
>cavity with bubbling at the electrodes, and there just might be a critical
>geometry/current density/temp. etc etc structure which enables OU to happen
>- regardless of the materials involved (within reason).
>
>Just my 2pennorth.  Norman Horwood

Another haypenny, I think that the temp/pressure ratio is too high at the
cathode for cavitation to occur the way Scott is doing it now, however with
stirring, an issue which I haven't seen discussed, the cathode temp may
lower enough to allow that to happen.  Even then, though, I would tend to
rule it out as a significant contributor to the effect.  The hydrodynamics
of that cell are so chaotic, than anything is possible, I suppose, and it's
really too early in the game to tell.  Right now, I think that the sparks
provide the conduit for plowing a bunch of protons, and anions into the
metal surface, and possibly dragging some free radicals along for the ride.
Those free radials have always been consumate hitchhikers! ;)   The only
other possible cavitation related item that Jed mentioned before was that
Mizuno used acetone and then an ultrasound device to clean the cathode
material of all the galvanized gunk after the run, and then examined the
cathode for new material (transmutations).  A red flag went up there, of
course, as overdriving the ultrasound device would cause cavitation, and
possibly cause transmutation to occur after the run and before the examination.

The more we learn of the protocols, materials, geometries, calorimetry, etc.
the better.  I wouldn't even use his cathode until I had a lot more of the
basic stuff worked out.  He seems to go to a great deal of effort to prepare
one, and it would be a shame to put one in a cell that is the equivalent of
a grinder.  I think that the method and amount of stirring is important, and
should be played with, and the difference between the glasses and the
possibility of additional electrons being added to the soup as a result of
the mechanical action of the cell should be looked at and compared.

This is just a suggestion, but since the preparation of the cathode, the
operational details, construction details, calorimetry, and post examination
are all so complicated, I think a better form of communication is in order.
Scott's photos and graphs are such a leap forward in the communication of
the ideas over ASCII description, that I think a series of videos would be a
good idea.  Instead of Jed spending ~$2,000 to travel half way around the
world, snap a few rolls and write his interpretation of the events, pocket
the "magic piece", and come home, it might be more cost effective to send
Mizuno the money, have an undergrad follow him around with a video camera
for the entire process, and then spent the forty bucks on the 10 resulting
videotapes.  He can mail us the "magic piece".  Mizuno can talk as he works,
an most importantly we can SEE what he is talking about.  I've noticed in
building things that even the smallest hand movements while making something
can affect the way the final product performs.  For example, the direction
and pressure that he polishes the metal surface will have an effect on the
grain boundaries that interface at the molecular and atomic level with the
surrounding gas/liquid.  It all makes a difference, or maybe I should say
that one small thing could make all the difference.  In the end, we would
have an education in how a world-class electrochemist makes his "magic
piece".  There will never be a suitable price for something like that.  Make
it Public Domain. 

There sure are a lot of things to look at here :)

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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At 12:36 6/2/99 -0400, Michael T Huffman wrote:

>Another haypenny, I think that the temp/pressure ratio is too high at the
>cathode for cavitation to occur the way Scott is doing it now, however with
>stirring, an issue which I haven't seen discussed, the cathode temp may
>lower enough to allow that to happen.

Very interesting that you would speculate thusly, Knuke.  FYI, stirring has
been discussed, and Mizuno thinks that it makes the excess heat happen
better, and I am presently adding stirring capability to my cell!



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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  At 01:02 PM 6/2/99 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>At 12:36 6/2/99 -0400, Michael T Huffman wrote:
>
>>Another haypenny, I think that the temp/pressure ratio is too high at the
>>cathode for cavitation to occur the way Scott is doing it now, however with
>>stirring, an issue which I haven't seen discussed, the cathode temp may
>>lower enough to allow that to happen.
>
>Very interesting that you would speculate thusly, Knuke.  FYI, stirring has
>been discussed, and Mizuno thinks that it makes the excess heat happen
>better, and I am presently adding stirring capability to my cell!

  Nonetheless, it is an important subject, as are the roles
of stirring upon the double layers, and the Rayleigh-Taylor
wavelength.  Its impact upon nucleation is probably significant
as well, as Michael suggests. 

  BTW, how much additional heat/noise will the stirring
capability add?

   Mitchell Swartz


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June 2, 1999

Vortex,

Curious about the forthcoming Science Talk (KPCC) NPR interview of APS's
Park and IE's Mallove by Michael Shermer and Larry Mantle, I wandered
over the web and the 'Fire From Ice'.

The excellant book describes Park as (on page 145) as 'not an official
spokesman for the APS, but ---.'
Later on chapt. 13, page 211, Park is the 'Excecutive Director of the
Office of Public Affairs of the APS. This sounds like he is a spokesman
for APS of some kind. (1990's). The title sound similar in function to
the job 'Gene had at MIT around the same time.

The jacket of Mallove book (nominated for the Pulitzer) describes Gene
as 'Chief Science Writer for the MIT News Office, a former syndicated
science writer for major newspapers and magazines, ---'.
I wonder what ruckus and pressures his book caused at MIT and elsewhere
prior to his resigning in principle over the objection of juggled cold
fusion data at MIT laboratory by their scientists.

Robert L. Park also released a 'What's New' APS article dated March 23,
1990 on the 'First Annual Conference on Cold Fusion' held in Salt Lake
City. His reporting was strictly negative and derisive, already labeling
the more than 30 attendees as 'true believers'  and writing that cold
fusion already dead within two months of announcement. Park does not
seem to have covered cold fusion on his 'What's New' since. This seems
slightly before Gene's discovery of manipulations at MIT. Gene's book
came out in 1991 and certainly leaned toward the reality of cold fusion.

Now on Michael Shermer:
A short bio. on him appears with review on a book he wrote back in 1997.

Look into <<http://www.reasonmag.com/9711/bk.doherty.html>> 'Reasom
online'  for a 'Critique of Pure Skeptism' by Brian Doherty on "Why
People Believe Things: Pseudoscience, and Other Confusions of Our Times"
by Michael Shermer.

To quote one paragreaph:
"Michael Shermer was once a born-again Christian and during his days as
a long-distance bicyclist, a patron of bevy of quackish diets and
therapies. Now he sees himself as a knight of reason squaring off
against the tireless forces of supersti-tions and unsupported beliefs.
As such, he fiunded and edits 'The Skeptic",  a quarterly magazine
dedicated to casting a critical eye on the world of strange and bizarre
beliefs."
Shermer is described as a relative newcomer to the debunking field long
dominated by Scentufuc American's Martin Gardiner and James 'the
Amazing" Randi.

Another website review on the 1997 book
<<http://www.california.com/~rpcman/WPBWT.HTM>> writes a fairly positive
review of the Shermer book..

A separate bio.on Shermer appears at:
<<http://www.skeptic.com/01.1.about-shermer.html>>

Michael Shermer:
Director of the Skeptic Society (headquarted near Cal Tech -- I wonder
why)
Asst. Prof. of History of Science at the Institute of Human Progress
(location?)
Taught psychology and history of science  11 yrs at Glendale College
Taught occassionally at Occidental College on history of science and
culture
Wrote about five related education-type books beside the 1997 book
reviewed above.
(Dr. of?)

Perhaps to be 'forewarned is to be forearmed'.

Larry Mantle, the other moderator of the interview seems to be part of
NPR staff.

-AK-

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At 08:39 PM 5/29/1999 -0400, Michael T Huffman wrote:

   (This is sort of off-topic for vortex-l, but safety is never really
off-topic.)

>I forget where I picked this up, but I should probably chase it down to get
>the exact numbers.  As I recall, the material (Teflon) doesn't start to
>decompose and react with stuff until it reaches temps of around 1500C, which
>is far above MOST situations that you will encounter in the kitchen while
>getting your eggs to solidify, however, in industrial situations where you
>are welding, for example, temps such as these are common.  I believe, and
>again this is from hazy memory, that Teflon will emit cyanide compounds when
>burned.

    Yes, they will, but the HCN won't kill you, the fluorine will get you
first. The original Teflon was a polymer of C2F2.  There are a number of
other fluorinated carbon compounds now also sold as Teflon--especially on
frying pans--but polymerized C2F2 is still used a lot for lab tubing, wire
insulation, etc.

    When heated hot enough to disassociate, you will get HF, F2, OF2, and
other compounds.  Fluorine gas is much, much worse than clorine, and
clorine was used as a poison gas in WWI.  The main fluorine containing
brakedown product is hydrogen fluoride, also known as hydrofluoric acid
when in solution.  HF is used industrially to etch glass, and it will do a
pretty good on your lungs.  HF is pretty hydrophilic, so a damp painting
mask is fine.  But in dry air you do get fluorine as well.  (So in the
plants where glass is etched, you will see plenty of open water and even
fountain sprays to keep the air safe.)

    So if you are doing anything which may result in decomposition of
fluorocarbons, do it on a rainy day, with relative humidity near 100%, and
a wet mask or bandana over your face.  (The painting masks they sell at
hardware stores are fine if you put a little water on them.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  2 13:16:25 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
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Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:18:07 -0400
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Scott wrote:
>>Very interesting that you would speculate thusly, Knuke.  FYI, stirring has
>>been discussed, and Mizuno thinks that it makes the excess heat happen
>>better, and I am presently adding stirring capability to my cell!

Mitch wrote:
>  Nonetheless, it is an important subject, as are the roles
>of stirring upon the double layers, and the Rayleigh-Taylor
>wavelength.  Its impact upon nucleation is probably significant
>as well, as Michael suggests. 
>
>  BTW, how much additional heat/noise will the stirring
>capability add?
>
>   Mitchell Swartz

What I meant was that stirring hadn't been adequately discussed, but we can
attempt to do that.  The whole issue adds a plethora of rings to the circus
that is going on in there.  Some of the Brown's Gas guys use a transducer
mounted to the outside of the cell, and give it a periodic pulse to knock
the bubbles off of the plates.  They found by accident that the gas
evolution was greatly enhanced by this method.  No measurements were taken,
of course, as many of them live in abandoned buses, etc., but you get the
idea, just a simple, short, mechanical whack on the cell at the lowest
amount of power input necessary to knock the bubbles off at the appropriate
intervals.  There was no attempt to create cavitation, either, from what I
could determine, just more gas.  That is the simplest thing you could try,
and you could mount the transducer on the bottom of the cell.  It's probably
not what Mizuno does, but we'll get to that.

My guess would be that the geometry of the cell, and where the tranducer was
mounted would also affect the direction that the bubbles travel.  The
frequency and the amplitude would affect the cavitation rate, and finding
the resonant conditions for a particular cell is a black art.  You would
have to play around with it for a long time before you found what works the
best, and it has nothing to do with this replication effort, but I thought
I'd toss that in for later experiments.

The way that I'm guessing that Mizuno does it, is to use a magnetic stirring
device under the cell.  This is probably the best for a number of reasons.
You can adjust the motive force imparted to the fluid just by adjusting the
speed of rotation of the underlying magnet, and move the bubbles out of the
hot area into the outer, colder portions of the cell.  This would be
conducive to cavitation, but not at the cathode.

He may also be using an AC electromagnetic stirrer, again, from under the cell.

Another method that I like, that I haven't seen tried by anyone, and would
require some modification to the design, would be to use two ring magnets
configured like the ones in a magnetron, that would impart a motive force
large enough to stir the liquid in a circular fashion.  I suggested this
earlier.  I don't know that they would be strong enough to really move the
bubbles into the colder regions of the cell fast enough for cavitation
purposes, but who knows.  At least there would be no additional power input
with this appoach, plus you would have the possible additional advantage of
drawing charged particles in opposite directions vertically, meaning that
you could drive the positive stuff downward, and the negative stuff upward,
or vice versa.  It's just another means of rodeoing some of the flow
directions, and grouping things together in certain parts of the cell.

Another method would be to just immerse a magnetron in a beaker, and shield
the heck out of it.  This has nothing to do with Mizuno, but if high-speed,
AC oscillation and hysterisis loops are are possible in electrolytic cells
then this is something to try.  WITH EXTREEEME CAUTION.  You would probably
have to pump gallons of water into the cell, as I would think this would be
a pretty energetic arrangement.  You could substitute the anode and cathode
materials with ones of your preference, but keep the basic magnetron
geometry.  Same with electrolytes and infused gases.  Just another
unpatentable, and no-doubt hazardous idea 8^)  I wouldn't go near it, myself.

Getting back to the Mizuno replication, and cavitation, how does he say to
stir the electrolyte, and how much stirring does he say to do?  Has he
looked at the cavitation potentials specifically?  As for how much
heat/noise it would add, I've never seen anyone even try this.  Cavitation
drives many chemical reactions, and under the right conditions, even nuclear
events.  No one has intentionally tried to design an electrolytic arc plasma
cavitation device before.  The basic cavitation experiments are still in the
toddler phase for lack of adequate funding, and the fact that fluid
dynamics, like electrochemistry, requires the lifetimes of dedicated
geniuses to understand and do properly.  Many more experimenters are needed,
as well as better communication methods to speed up the development curve.
I'd like to give a simple, short, mechanical whack with a two by four on the
side of the heads of the money people sometimes, just for the educational
benefit.  Wouldn't you? ;)

Knuke

 

 
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: H2K:  Arc or Glow Discharge?
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:19:30 -0400
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Vince wrote:
>
> Let me add to this Tom that when the cell pressure is greater than
>~100 torr fill the discharge forms an arc discharge. At below 100 torr the
>glow fills the entire volume of the tube with a soft glow, above 100 torr
>a thin arc, almost invisible can be seen if the lab lights are off, probably
>lots of hard UV which doesn't make it through the tube walls
-
All of the discharges you describe above would normally be considered
glow discharge. The thin almost invisible line connecting the glowing
cathode and the anode is referred to as the positive column portion of
the glow discharge and forms in higher pressure discharges with sufficient
anode to cathode spacing. Arc discharges are characterized by molten cathode
spots and tube voltage drops much lower than you are finding.
-
> Tests will be run at fill pressures from
>10 torr to ~150 torr fill with H2 to find best C/watt zone, then add the K and
>see what effect that has.
-
In your earlier experiments, some of the most interesting results were at
much higher pressures and currents than you are now planning to run.
Why not extend the pressure range to at least 760 torr, ~ 1 Atm.
Regards,
George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
1924 US Hwy 22 East            Bound Brook NJ 08805

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  2 13:31:28 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
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Robert Eachus wrote:
>    When heated hot enough to disassociate, you will get HF, F2, OF2, and
>other compounds.  Fluorine gas is much, much worse than clorine, and
>clorine was used as a poison gas in WWI.  The main fluorine containing
>brakedown product is hydrogen fluoride, also known as hydrofluoric acid
>when in solution.  HF is used industrially to etch glass, and it will do a
>pretty good on your lungs.  HF is pretty hydrophilic, so a damp painting
>mask is fine.  But in dry air you do get fluorine as well.

Thanks Robert,

I don't know how many read the REMBAR technical data that Fred posted
earlier, but HF is highly reactive with W as well, and HF is used as an
etchant for W.  This cell is a real stew, material science-wise, and
frankly, I would have to see it operate in OU mode for at least several days
before I was convinced that all of the primary, secondary, and tertiary
chemical reactions were exhausted.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  2 13:37:48 1999
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At 14:04 6/2/99 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>  BTW, how much additional heat/noise will the stirring
>capability add?

I'm expecting the stirrer power consumption to be about .5 watts (i.e. 5
VDC ~100 mA), which will be negligible in this experiment.  The whole
thing, including small DC motor will be inside the calorimeter enclosure so
I can easily monitor the power involved if it's not negligible.  

I'll report what it is as soon as I get it stirring.  



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Light Leptons and Battery Terminal Corrosion?
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:27:21 -0600
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To: Vortex

Without looking, which battery terminal corrodes up first?

Having just funded a $110.00 towing charge, plus more than that for a new
battery and cable connectors, (and "diagnostics") because of the propensity
for battery terminals to corrode, they gotta be Light Leptons with an
affinity for that terminal and Lead in particular.   :-)

Has anyone ever analyzed that corrosion "gunk" for OU Effects and LENR? It
might help pay that
bill.

Regards,       Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  2 14:49:42 1999
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Light Leptons and Battery Terminal Corrosion?
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  Although I've yet to see any evidence of light leptons,
rest assured that the anode is the site of corrosion
(i.e. oxidation).  More info in Uhlig and Bockris refs
previously.

  Hope that helps.

   Mitchell Swartz


 At 03:27 PM 6/2/99 -0600, Frederick  Sparber wrote:
>To: Vortex
>
>Without looking, which battery terminal corrodes up first?
>
>Having just funded a $110.00 towing charge, plus more than that for a new
>battery and cable connectors, (and "diagnostics") because of the propensity
>for battery terminals to corrode, they gotta be Light Leptons with an
>affinity for that terminal and Lead in particular.   :-)
>
>Has anyone ever analyzed that corrosion "gunk" for OU Effects and LENR? It
>might help pay that
>bill.
>
>Regards,       Frederick
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  2 15:07:43 1999
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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Re: Light Leptons and Battery Terminal Corrosion?
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Fred,

HA, this is a trick question!

It would appear that the primary corrosion was in your wallet.

Also since the unit designation of it's contents seems to be lower that would 
tend to indicate fission instead of fusion.

Whether it is LENR would depend on  your energy level at the moment of reaction 
to invoice.

>Without looking, which battery terminal corrodes up first?
>
>Having just funded a $110.00 towing charge, plus more than that for a new
>battery and cable connectors, (and "diagnostics") because of the propensity
>for battery terminals to corrode, they gotta be Light Leptons with an
>affinity for that terminal and Lead in particular.   :-)

Bill
webriggs concentric.net

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Subject: Re: Light Leptons and Battery Terminal Corrosion?
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----- Original Message -----
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: Light Leptons and Battery Terminal Corrosion?

When you are more nervous about what your auto repair bill is going to be,
than you were when you were waiting for the birth of your first child, I
think preventative maintenence should be a higher priority.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick


>
>
>   Although I've yet to see any evidence of light leptons,
> rest assured that the anode is the site of corrosion
> (i.e. oxidation).  More info in Uhlig and Bockris refs
> previously.
>
>   Hope that helps.
>
>    Mitchell Swartz
>
>
>  At 03:27 PM 6/2/99 -0600, Frederick  Sparber wrote:
> >To: Vortex
> >
> >Without looking, which battery terminal corrodes up first?
> >
> >Having just funded a $110.00 towing charge, plus more than that for a new
> >battery and cable connectors, (and "diagnostics") because of the
propensity
> >for battery terminals to corrode, they gotta be Light Leptons with an
> >affinity for that terminal and Lead in particular.   :-)
> >
> >Has anyone ever analyzed that corrosion "gunk" for OU Effects and LENR?
It
> >might help pay that
> >bill.
> >
> >Regards,       Frederick
> >
> >
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  2 15:21:11 1999
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Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 18:19:39 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> To: Vortex
> 
> Without looking, which battery terminal corrodes up first?
> 
> Having just funded a $110.00 towing charge, plus more than that for a new
> battery and cable connectors, (and "diagnostics") because of the propensity
> for battery terminals to corrode, they gotta be Light Leptons with an
> affinity for that terminal and Lead in particular.   :-)
> 
> Has anyone ever analyzed that corrosion "gunk" for OU Effects and LENR? It
> might help pay that
> bill.

If you'll simply place a few copper pennies on the top of your
battery, your terminals will no longer corrode.  Replace
frequently.  $110 = 11000 pennies. :-)

Terry

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Subject: Re: Light Leptons and Battery Terminal Corrosion?
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:23:52 -0600
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----- Original Message -----
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: Light Leptons and Battery Terminal Corrosion?

Ha! The Electron (Light Lepton) Affinity for Copper is 1.235 ev, for Lead it
is 0.356 ev.  Those LLs like that better.

Regards,     Frederick


>
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >
> > To: Vortex
> >
> > Without looking, which battery terminal corrodes up first?
> >
> > Having just funded a $110.00 towing charge, plus more than that for a
new
> > battery and cable connectors, (and "diagnostics") because of the
propensity
> > for battery terminals to corrode, they gotta be Light Leptons with an
> > affinity for that terminal and Lead in particular.   :-)
> >
> > Has anyone ever analyzed that corrosion "gunk" for OU Effects and LENR?
It
> > might help pay that
> > bill.
>
> If you'll simply place a few copper pennies on the top of your
> battery, your terminals will no longer corrode.  Replace
> frequently.  $110 = 11000 pennies. :-)
>
> Terry
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  2 17:36:26 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 20:33:20 EDT
Subject: PLEC:  Mizuno's cell:  open or closed?
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Jed, 

In your post Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 11:49:40 -0400, you wrote that Mizuno's 
cell is as tightly covered as Scott Little's.  In an earlier post, some time 
ago, you referred to Mizuno's plasma electrolysis cell as being open.  Is he 
running both open and closed cells?

Tom Stolper

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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CA source in electrolysis
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 01:04:13 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:18:23 -0400, Ed Wall wrote:
[snip]
>This was a bit disappointing, but there was at least one significant
>difference between the circumstances that led to high Ca concentration
>detection and the circumstances that did not.  One is the arc voltage.  It
>was lower for the runs where no Ca was detected.  I think it unlikely that
>the glass reached a significantly higher temperature because it is separated
>from the arc (~3/4") by water that cannot exceed 100C, so this data tends to
>preclude the possibility of the high levels of Ca coming from that glass.

It may however point to a PIT process as the origin of the Ca.

[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: info from Mizuno
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 00:26:36 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:47:38 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:

>I don't know if you are still using the bank of four 100 uF capacitors
>accross the cell, but if so, maybe the value is way too high?  It might
>make sense to use inductors on each lead, to block HF back to the power
>supply, and use a much smaller cap across the cell to accomidate the HF
>oscillation.  

Note that this is essentially a low pass filter, as I advocated in the
thread on vortexb, and also in the past here on vortex.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Excess volume
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 00:22:53 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Tue, 01 Jun 1999 23:59:04 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:
[snip]
>sensitive calorimeter will see an effect.  Rarely, a piece is found which is
>mostly crack-free and is found to be very active.  The conditions required to
>prevent crack formation are not well known outside of Johnson-Matthey company.
>
>Ed Storms
[snip]
It sounds as if Pd could benefit from a revolution analogous to zone
refining for Si. I suspect there would be less cracks in ultra pure
metal, that is cooled very slowly from the melt.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  2 18:51:49 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: info from Mizuno
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:43:18 -0400
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Robin wrote:
>Note that this is essentially a low pass filter, as I advocated in the
>thread on vortexb, and also in the past here on vortex.
>[snip]
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

With that many sparks there should be more feedback than a Crazy Horse concert.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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From: VCockeram aol.com
Message-ID: <1376255f.2487511c aol.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 23:31:40 EDT
Subject: Re: H2K:  Arc or Glow Discharge?
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In a message dated 06/02/1999 13:18:52 Pacific Daylight Time, 
george varisys.com writes:

> All of the discharges you describe above would normally be considered
>  glow discharge. The thin almost invisible line connecting the glowing
>  cathode and the anode is referred to as the positive column portion of
>  the glow discharge and forms in higher pressure discharges with sufficient
>  anode to cathode spacing. Arc discharges are characterized by molten 
cathode
>  spots and tube voltage drops much lower than you are finding.

Vince wrote:
>  > Tests will be run at fill pressures from
>  >10 torr to ~150 torr fill with H2 to find best C/watt zone, then add the 
K 
>  > and see what effect that has.

George responds:
>  In your earlier experiments, some of the most interesting results were at
>  much higher pressures and currents than you are now planning to run.
>  Why not extend the pressure range to at least 760 torr, ~ 1 Atm.

I will try to find the regime the produces the best temperature per watt. If, 
at a
fill of 100 torr the temperature per watt is still on the rise, I will keep 
going
towards a higher fill.
Tests last August got the best temp per watt at a fill of ~530 torr and began
to fall off after that pressure. I would _love_ to operate at a higher fill. 
Much
easier to control but I will explore everything from 10 torr and up. Mills 
says
on his webpages it's best around 10 torr but who knows. So yes, I will
go and extend fill based on what I find. Nothing is cast in stone here, in
fact, it's a swamp!
Remember also I am using HV AC instead of DC used last year.

>  Regards,
>  George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
>  732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
>  1924 US Hwy 22 East            Bound Brook NJ 08805
>


Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas
702-254-2122  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  2 21:35:13 1999
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: all issues
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from Mizuno:

>I think your power suplly is enough to do discharge. I saw same waveform
as
>you. I think the form of A-3 is may be coused from the AC source, because
I
>have seen the form even if I did not discharge the sample. I think you can
>see the form before experiment. And others is almost same as my form.

I think that what Mizuno means about the A-3 trace, the damped sinusoid at
about 20 MHz, is that it is a switching transient from his power supply's
oscillator. Here I am assuming that both power supplies work (as do many
these days) by rectifying and filtering the AC line power (no transformer),
running a square wave switching oscillator off that, putting it through a
small, light weight ferrite-core transformer to get near the desired output
voltage, rectifying and regulating this. A switching transient overshoot
might sneak through the circuitry and be visible at the output. I've seen
this in at least one power supply.
===
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  2 22:08:53 1999
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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Electrolysis using A Converted Lead-Acid Battery?
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:16:48 -0600
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To: Vortex

Having paid my dues on battery technology for the month :-) I suggest that a
6 or 12 volt Lead-Acid battery be emptied of most of the H2SO4 and an
aqueous solution of K2CO3 be added.

Then the battery can be immersed in a K2CO3 solution in a thermally
insulated hydrostatic or gas pressurized tank, and 6 or 12 volts applied to
the terminals with a battery charger and calorimetry performed.

Note: keep the temperature below the melting point of plastic or lead if you
can. :-)

Regards,      Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  2 23:49:01 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: info from Mizuno
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At 4:26 PM 6/2/99, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>On Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:47:38 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>I don't know if you are still using the bank of four 100 uF capacitors
>>accross the cell, but if so, maybe the value is way too high?  It might
>>make sense to use inductors on each lead, to block HF back to the power
>>supply, and use a much smaller cap across the cell to accomidate the HF
>>oscillation.
>
>Note that this is essentially a low pass filter, as I advocated in the
>thread on vortexb, and also in the past here on vortex.
>[snip]

Yes, I and others have also have discussed this here and elsewhere in the
past, as well experimented with the concept.  It is more than just a
bypass, it is a spark gap oscillator circuit.  This is one reason why the
stirring might help, to increase the unifority and frequency of the
sparking that stimulates the HF oscillator.  One advantage of the HF
resonance is that the skin effect places the electrode current right in the
vicinity of the interface and shallow adsorbed ions, thus minimizing the
energy required to achieve a given lateral current density in the critical
volumes.  It also maximizes the spark rate which may in turn maximize the
rate of small bubble collapse, the collapse of bubbles highly pre-heated
initially when generated by the sparks.  Because of this, sonoluminescnece
should get a double whammy from the local electronation heating cooling
cycle, as well as from the spark formation.  Inside the cathode surface
there is also repeated gradient changes driving adsorbed hydrogen back and
forth through the lattice, raising other possibilities for energy
generation discussed here at length over the years.   The concept doesn't
help at all in figuring out why it ends up overunity (if it does) but sure
helps concentrate a lot of energy and current in a small volume.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: info from Mizuno
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 07:20:40 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:49:14 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
[snip]
>Yes, I and others have also have discussed this here and elsewhere in the
>past, as well experimented with the concept.  It is more than just a
>bypass, it is a spark gap oscillator circuit.  This is one reason why the
>stirring might help, to increase the unifority and frequency of the
>sparking that stimulates the HF oscillator.  One advantage of the HF
>resonance is that the skin effect places the electrode current right in the
>vicinity of the interface and shallow adsorbed ions, thus minimizing the
>energy required to achieve a given lateral current density in the critical
>volumes.  It also maximizes the spark rate which may in turn maximize the
>rate of small bubble collapse, the collapse of bubbles highly pre-heated
>initially when generated by the sparks.  Because of this, sonoluminescnece
>should get a double whammy from the local electronation heating cooling
>cycle, as well as from the spark formation.  Inside the cathode surface
>there is also repeated gradient changes driving adsorbed hydrogen back and
>forth through the lattice, raising other possibilities for energy
>generation discussed here at length over the years.   The concept doesn't
>help at all in figuring out why it ends up overunity (if it does) but sure
>helps concentrate a lot of energy and current in a small volume.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>
All excellent points. I presume that the implication is that the values
chosen for the components could also be critical.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  3 00:27:08 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Electrolysis using A Converted Lead-Acid Battery?
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 07:14:09 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:16:48 -0600, Frederick  Sparber wrote:

>To: Vortex
>
>Having paid my dues on battery technology for the month :-) I suggest that a
>6 or 12 volt Lead-Acid battery be emptied of most of the H2SO4 and an
>aqueous solution of K2CO3 be added.

I predict the production of copious amounts of CO2! ;)

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  3 01:49:17 1999
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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199906030847.DAA18745 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: all issues
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990602083309.00a7a2f4 mail.eden.com> from Scott Little at "Jun 2, 99 08:33:09 am"
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Scott wrote:
> V|  *
>  |  *
>  |  *
>  |  *
>  |    *
>  |       *
>  |        *
>  |       *
>  |     *
>  |   *  
>  | *
>  |_________________________
>                        I
> This is the V vs I curve for this experiment!


Hmm, it looks like if you had a current injection grid, you'd have
the basis of a gain amplifier -- since it looks like higher voltages
deplete the charge carriers (or their free lifetime.)

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  3 07:25:44 1999
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Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 10:20:17 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Why we know there are no hidden spikes
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Mitchell Jones raised an issue that comes up from time to time in
discussions of cold fusion input power:

	On the other hand, if there is a significant nonrandom component
	to the signal, and if it happens to produce spikes that fall
	consistently into the unsampled portion of the signal, then
	power consumption will be greater than 10 times that in the
	sampled region, and your meter will underestimate input power.
	Therefore, on what basis do you conclude that "the sparks
	themselves are completely random"?

There are four main reasons this is impossible:

1. The spikes would have to be exactly synchronized in duration with all
sampling devices. A variety of sampling devices are used, including slow
meters and fast oscilloscopes, with different sampling rates. The spikes
would have to automatically adjust their wavelength to the type of meter
the researcher selects.

2. The spikes would have to be synchronized at each startup so they fell
exactly between sampling periods. The experiment has been run hundreds of
times, and the startup of data collection is random, depending on the
millisecond Mizuno presses the start switch. Sooner or later it would hit
exactly so that the peaks of the spikes correspond to the moments data is
sampled.

3. The spikes which are visible are completely random. Also, they do not
appear to be more or less random when there is excess heat compared to when
there is not.

4. These hypothetical nonrandom spikes would surely be caused by chemical
or electrochemical processes, which also cause irregular spikes and the
nonrandom color of the glow. The spikes would be affected by current
density, cathode geometry, temperature and other parameters. In other
words, they would not have exactly the same wavelength with every cathode
of every size and every voltage, any more than the color is exactly the
same in all cases. Since many different cathodes of different shapes and
sizes have been used, surely the wavelength would have varied and the
spikes would have shown up by now.

Finally, an appeal to theory: glow discharge electrolysis have been studied
in detail since the 1950s, and great deal is known about it. There is no
reason to believe the processes are anything but random. Quoting Mizuno:

	This phenomenon was discovered in the early 1950s, and reported
	by Jasnogorodski [13] (1951), Polakowski [14] (1955). Research
	by Ohwaku and Kuroyanagi [15] in 1955 clarified the roles played
	by temperature, type of electrolyte, current density, and the
	area of the cathode in this form of electrolysis.

	13. Jasnogorodski I. S., Elektrolytishes Harten, (1951)

	14. Polakowski N. H., Met. Plogr., 67 (1955) 98

	15. Shigeo Ohwaku and Kazuo Kuroyanagi, J. J. Met. Soc. 20,
	(1955) 63-70

The energy balance has not been researched in detail heretofore, because no
one had a reason to suspect the process produces excess heat, and indeed
most of the time it does not. I suppose if people overlooked the excess
heat effect they might also be overlooking hidden spikes -- or to put more
accurately, they actually overlooked spikes all these years, not heat. But
I find this hypothesis extremely far-fetched.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  3 07:29:13 1999
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Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 09:42:14 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: PLEC:  Mizuno's cell:  open or closed?
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Tom Stolper writes:

	. . . you wrote that Mizuno's  cell is as tightly covered as
	Scott Little's.  In an earlier post, some time  ago, you
	referred to Mizuno's plasma electrolysis cell as being
	open . . .

The cells have a Teflon stopper to prevent the electrolyte from splashing
out. The stopper has a hole and a tube to vent gas and water vapor. The gas
passes through a condenser and the condensed water is weighed in a
milligram scale. Free H2 and 02 gas are vented into the atmosphere.


Michael T. Huffman writes:

	Instead of Jed spending ~$2,000 to travel half way around the
	world, snap a few rolls and write his interpretation of the
	events, pocket the "magic piece", and come home, it might be
	more cost effective to send Mizuno the money, have an undergrad
	follow him around with a video camera for the entire process. . .

Actually, it is costing $550, round-trip. It is amazing what bargains you
can find these days in air travel. More to the point, I will not write my
interpretation of events. I will translate what Mizuno says and report what
happened. And suppose we did have an undergrad follow Mizuno around with a
video camera. It would be in Japanese, and you would need me or someone
else to translate it. It is easier to go to the site and ask questions
rather than translate from a video.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  3 08:52:22 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: info from Mizuno
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At 11:20 PM 6/2/99, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>All excellent points. I presume that the implication is that the values
>chosen for the components could also be critical.

Yes, since the objective is to maximize COP, there is a need to handle
opposing objectives, to minimize energy in and maximize energy out, and
this in a highly dynamic environment.

An interesting prospect, for those inclined toward the Edisonian approach,
like me, and a means to try to figure out what is going on, might be to try
floating a rotating plate cathode just a hair above the liquid surface to
get a more uniform interaction between the electrode and electrolyte.  This
would then continue to  make the electrolyte the anode, a nice target for
the incoming electrons from the hot cathode, and the perfect medium for
absorbing electron kinetic energy, either individually, or in spark form,
in bubble forming pathways.  Another approach is to make the suspended
electrode an anode, and drive a HV AC component directly with an oscillator
(shades of Puharich).  Another approach is to make the suspended cathode an
independently resistance heated conductor.   In any case, a strong glow,
arc, or HF discharge, with these broadly covering all the electrolyte
surface (i.e. the diameter of the electrolyte container restricted at the
top), excellent recombination would be provided by these right at the
liquid-gas interface, thus improving cell safety.

BTW, my experience with spark and glow discharge cells is that the visually
more interesting light producing reactions (blue glow etc.) occur at the
anode, where oxidation reactions occur.  This characteristic is suppressed
in the O-M cell by making the anode very large, thus reducing current
density, and by using platinum, thus reducing metal oxidation (but
increasing catalytic capacity), but most importantly, by creating a second
anode out of the liquid surface in the sheath.  Suspending a flat electrode
above the electrolyte surface is not as easy as bulding a sheath around an
odd shaped electrode, but gives a more controlled yet similar environment.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  3 10:35:43 1999
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Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:34:47 -0400 (EDT)
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Cracks in WHAT ??? Re: Excess volume
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	Dear Folks,

	Below, see flag, question;

On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> On Tue, 01 Jun 1999 23:59:04 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:
> [snip]
> >sensitive calorimeter will see an effect. 
______________ FLAG ________________

 Rarely, a piece is found which is
> >mostly crack-free and is found to be very active.


  ________________-  A piece of WHAT ?  ___________

  The conditions required to
> >prevent crack formation are not well known outside of Johnson-Matthey company.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  3 10:42:30 1999
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To: vortexb-l eskimo.com
cc: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>,
        John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Measurement .....Re: H2K:  Arc or Glow Discharge?
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	Dear Vo.,

	Some of you all keep talking about trying to use digital and-or
sampling and-or non analog methods.

	Please correct me if I missed something ... I have not followed
the whole thread;

	1]	You have a system which involves arc and-or other type of
interruption of primary feed power.

	2]	This results in 
			a] hash
			b] HF stuff
			c] spikes
			d] other 'unfortunate waveforms'

	3]	You want to measure current and voltage, input and output.

	If the task is to do this, let us know..... if there is more to
it, let us know.

	4]	Can you give brief bare bones description of set up,

			ie

		a] electrolytic cell with arc
		b] supply is 100 volts at 10 amps  roughly
		c] output ranges from HF to LF and has spikes of up to
1,500 V.


				J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  3 11:54:05 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Cracks in WHAT ??? Re: Excess volume
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 ollege.edu>
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> Rarely, a piece is found which is
>> >mostly crack-free and is found to be very active.
>
>
>  ________________-  A piece of WHAT ?  ___________

Palladium.

- JR

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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: PLEC:  Mizuno's cell:  open or closed?
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:12:27 -0400
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Jed wrote:
>Actually, it is costing $550, round-trip. It is amazing what bargains you
>can find these days in air travel. More to the point, I will not write my
>interpretation of events. I will translate what Mizuno says and report what
>happened. And suppose we did have an undergrad follow Mizuno around with a
>video camera. It would be in Japanese, and you would need me or someone
>else to translate it. It is easier to go to the site and ask questions
>rather than translate from a video.
>
>- Jed

You're right that is an incredible price, and makes the trip worthwhile.  I
still think though, that a video of Mizuno constructing the cell, operating
the various devices, and testing the materials after the run would be of
great value.  I've spent almost half of my life, either in rooms with no
light (photographic industry) or in countries where I don't speak the
language.  I get volumes more information by seeing something and touching
it than I do by listening to people explain it or reading about it.  Very
often, the explanations that I get that accompany an event, even when coming
from eye witnesses or qualified experts, are lacking enough critical detail
for me to make a good judgement.  Many times when I look at video, I just
turn the sound off, and watch what takes place to ge a better sense of the
general conditions, transactions, sequence of events, peripheral events and
so on.  It gives me a much better insight, and as an educational tool, I
can't imagine anything being as inexpensive and information laden as a well
shot video.  Have fun in Japan.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 18:59:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>,
        John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: A Question of Communication
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	Dear Vo.,

	In light of recent... and not so recent ... news about "slow
light" and purported Faster than light .. uh... light or EM, I have some
basic practical questions about terrestrial and satellite communication:

	1]  In general ... and in specific, if you know, if we are talking
about microwave communication, line of sight, from tower to tower or
ground to satellite to ground;

	Q:

		a] What type of modulation [s] are used?
		b] What type of antenna structutes, ie., Yagi-Uda
			are used?
		c] What are most common?
		d] Which-what are the 'latest and greatest' ... and 
		e] Which-what are the 'old standby' types?

	The reason I am looking at this is we might be able to look at
signal distortion or skew to sense 'medium' [or Aether, if you want]
effects.

	If this winds up being a long answer, OK to write to me off line
and save Vo from clogging.

		Thanks,

				John Schnurer	

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  3 17:21:19 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 20:16:58 EDT
Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration:  Transformer Heat?
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Vince,

How warm does your transformer get?

Tom Stolper

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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re:  Alkaline (KOH)  Rechargeable Batteries, OU Possibilities?
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 19:39:44 -0600
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To: Vortex

Since Robin is concerned with CO2 release when you add K2CO3 to
washed-rinsed Lead-Acid batteries, perhaps $3.00  (D or C Size) Rechargeable
Nickel(Hydroxide)-Cadmium batteries that have a KOH Electrolyte would be
more to his fancy.

The Edison Cell (Nickel- KOH-Iron) is also a possibility for use in OU
Experiments where one can even substitute Deuterium for Hydrogen in it.

I would recommend a blast shield as a safety precaution before running a
current through them, though.

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  3 19:00:28 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Alkaline (KOH)  Rechargeable Batteries, OU Possibilities?
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 01:58:42 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Thu, 3 Jun 1999 19:39:44 -0600, Frederick  Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>I would recommend a blast shield as a safety precaution before running a
>current through them, though.
>
>Regards,     Frederick
Are Ni-MH batteries known to explode?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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Subject: Re: Alkaline (KOH)  Rechargeable Batteries, OU Possibilities?
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----- Original Message -----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 1999 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: Alkaline (KOH) Rechargeable Batteries, OU Possibilities?

Robin wrote:


> On Thu, 3 Jun 1999 19:39:44 -0600, Frederick  Sparber wrote:
> [snip]
> >I would recommend a blast shield as a safety precaution before running a
> >current through them, though.
> >
> >Regards,     Frederick
> Are Ni-MH batteries known to explode?

I don't know,but if you discharge the NiCads and put a reverse
over-voltage/current on them they might. OTOH, the Edison Batteries might
already be OU (heat) on recharge. I only have one D size Alkaline
Rechargeable and I would want at least a 3/8 inch thick Lucite safety shield
before trying anything with it.

Regards,    Frederick
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  3 19:21:43 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: info from Mizuno
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 22:21:16 -0400
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>
>An interesting prospect, for those inclined toward the Edisonian approach,
>like me, and a means to try to figure out what is going on, might be to try
>floating a rotating plate cathode just a hair above the liquid surface to
>get a more uniform interaction between the electrode and electrolyte.  This
>would then continue to  make the electrolyte the anode, a nice target for
>the incoming electrons from the hot cathode, and the perfect medium for
>absorbing electron kinetic energy, either individually, or in spark form,
>in bubble forming pathways.

I thought about this once before, Horace, and it has some interesting
possibilities.  A rotating disk moves the free electrons to the outside rim
by centrifical force.  This is a mechanical version of the Hall Effect.  The
electrons would fly off of the outer rim to the charged positively charged
liquid in an umbrella shaped pattern, I would think.  If the disk was
rotating fast enough, it may be possible to draw electrons straight from the
earth like an electron turbine pump.  Dremels have rotational speeds of
30,000 rpm, and I've heard that some dental drills have rotational speeds of
several thousand rpm.  If you cut away the back of a Dremel and springloaded
a brush to the rotor shaft, and earthed it, it might work.  Of course any
hydrogen gas that was produced in the cell would explode...

The rest of your ideas are interesting too, but I'll have to think about
them for awhile longer.  What's the weather been like up there in AK?

Knuke

   

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  3 19:35:17 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Alkaline (KOH)  Rechargeable Batteries, OU Possibilities?
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 22:38:29 -0400
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>I don't know,but if you discharge the NiCads and put a reverse
>over-voltage/current on them they might. OTOH, the Edison Batteries might
>already be OU (heat) on recharge. I only have one D size Alkaline
>Rechargeable and I would want at least a 3/8 inch thick Lucite safety shield
>before trying anything with it.
>
>Regards,    Frederick

Having done a lot of work with Lucite, I can tell you that 3/8" is no where
near enough.  It is known for its shock absorbing ability, but when as it
ages it gets brittle.  I think it has something to do with the absorbtion of
UV light.  Maybe it breaks down the polymerization or something, I don't
know.  It also melts at a fairly low temp. ~225F  A Kevlar jacket around the
outside of a cell would at least direct any flying stuff upward, and absorb
alot of the initial energy release, and a 1" or better sheet of Lucite,
tilted back to deflect everything else upward would be the way to go.  Then
there are always sandbags:)

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  3 19:57:15 1999
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Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 22:02:08 -0700
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John Schnurer wrote:
> 
>         Dear Vo.,
> 
>         In light of recent... and not so recent ... news about "slow
> light" and purported Faster than light .. uh... light or EM, I have some
> basic practical questions about terrestrial and satellite communication:
> 
>         1]  In general ... and in specific, if you know, if we are talking
> about microwave communication, line of sight, from tower to tower or
> ground to satellite to ground;
> 
>         Q:
> 
>                 a] What type of modulation [s] are used?

Digital. Quadrature Amplitude Modulation.  Specifically, Trellis-coded
256 QAM providing the equivalent of 512 QAM states.  1024 QAM systems
have been demonstrated.

>                 b] What type of antenna structutes, ie., Yagi-Uda
>                         are used?

Parabolic antennae.  In high density systems, sectional parabolic horns.

>                 c] What are most common?

Parabolic solid dish.  Some grid dish systems are used in the lower
frequencies (below 4 GHz).

>                 d] Which-what are the 'latest and greatest' ... and

Actually, terrestrial microwave is used only for short ranges these days
due to the prevalence of fiber optic systems.  Satellite antennae
systems haven't changed much in 10 years.

>                 e] Which-what are the 'old standby' types?

Hey, there are still some analog systems out there!


> 
>         The reason I am looking at this is we might be able to look at
> signal distortion or skew to sense 'medium' [or Aether, if you want]
> effects.

It will probably be masked by multipath fading in most microwave
systems.  This is an atmospheric phenomenon.

> 
>         If this winds up being a long answer, OK to write to me off line
> and save Vo from clogging.
> 
>                 Thanks,
> 
>                                 John Schnurer

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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Alkaline (KOH) Rechargeable Batteries
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Robin:

The Edison battery has a temperature limit of 115 Deg F, apparently dictated
by the stability of NiO2? There is a Semiconducting compound of NiOx-Li as
well as Semiconducting MnO2 which will easily plate (Anodize) on Nickel or
Iron from a solution of Potassium Permanganate.  I've done this on brass
using 15 volts or so.(Makes a good recombiner catalyst, too) Since PbO2 is
used in Lead-Acid batteries it must be semiconducting also.

The point is, the KOH  (or K2CO3) electrolyte can be used in rechargeable
alkaline batteries that are off-the-shelf for OU experiments.

Regards,      Frederick



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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 00:28:09 EDT
Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration:  Transformer Heat?
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In a message dated 06/03/1999 17:19:16 Pacific Daylight Time, 
Tstolper AOL.COM writes:

> Vince,
>  How warm does your transformer get?
>  Tom Stolper

Never measured it Tom, but today I was running the discharge in H2
to see what the voltage across the tube would be.  After running
at full input voltage for about an hour the transformer was quite
warm to the touch, my guess about 130 F or so.

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas
702-254-2122 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  3 21:32:04 1999
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Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration
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All,

I purchased 3 Radio Shack true RMS DMM's and returned
the RS computer interface DMM. Reason? When it came back from
"repair" with the 2 Megohm scale reading a 1.8 Megohm resistor
as 800 Kohm with the statement "this meter is in spec and no adjustments
are necessary", I told them to keep it. Also, as I demonstrated in the 
store that it measured wall outlet voltage as 400 millivolts and told them
this is a long way from being "in specs".

Anyhow, I have run some additional fixed resistor tests across the HV
secondary, a repeat of the 54 Kohm load and a test with a 64 Kohm load.
With the 64 Kohm load I was able to get the secondary voltage up to
1100 volts. Secondary watts were 18.7 at this voltage and primary 
watts were 45.01.

I then wired up a tube to measure the voltage I would see across it during
a discharge in H2.  The voltage across the tube varies greatly with the
H2 fill pressure and tops out at ~8 Kv at a 500 torr fill. Lowest tube voltage
is at about a 12 torr fill, 850 volts and ~1500 volts at a 100 millitorr fill.

So I need to run additional fixed resistor tests to cover the full range
voltage that can appear across the tube during the discharge runs.
I have the range from 500 to 1100 volts covered so far.

The dual range voltage divider I constructed works very well up to about
9 Kv input. Above that I get sparks jumping between the banana plug
inputs. The shielding also seems to be doing it's job as all the metering
remained very steady.

I also today returned my Fluke 8060A DMM to Fluke for calibration
and repair. $155 bucks...ouch!  Needless to say I will only use this
meter as my lab standard for checking the cheap meters.

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas
702-254-2122

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 http://www.energizer.ch/products/rechargeable.html

NiMH (Nickel-Metal Hydride) vs NiCad  (Nickel-Cadmium) Rechargeable
Batteries.

CF- OU Possibilities?

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Hi all !

Perhaps the earliest recorded process of Low Energy Nuclear Transmutation ?

I just read the story in a French book dealing with unconventional
technology, unusual science and "shape power".

It happened in the 1950's (no exact date given). A researcher named J.
Coutelen demonstrated a low energy system that created radio-isotopes from
ordinary sand, and, in reverse, neutralized radio-activity from uranium and
thorium, using an old Crookes tube. The system was originally created by
Georges Claude (1870 - 1960), prolific physicist and inventor, pioneer for
liquid air, ammonia synthesis, fluorescent light and marine thermal energy.
Georges Claude was expelled from the French Science Academy after world war
II, due to his sympathy for the Germans, and finished his life in seclusion.
Coutelen was Claude's former lab assistant.

Coutelen's demonstrations took place, at first, in his cellar, then at the
Rosengart factory in Courbevoie, near Paris. He was financed by two
businessmen, and the demos were witnessed by army brass and technicians, two
state secretaries, some scientists, and philosopher Raymond Abellio. A
military team did some thorough testing, a commission was created, then
nothing was heard of it. Many people thought Coutelen was an impostor.He was
also described as "suffering from extreme nerve sickness". A patent draft
was made by a patent attorney, Mr Loyer, from which 2 crude drawings have
survived.(*)

Here is a translation of the demo's description in the book :

"The old Crookes tube was suspended to the ceiling. It was fed with AC
current, 50 Hz, tension 10 to 15 kV, amperage 5 mA, with an old style
transformer, one pole being put to ground. On the table was a coil made of
12 turns, and inside it another coil with 10 turns, in reverse direction.
These coils were not hooked to the electrical conductors feeding the Crookes
tube. The first coil ended with 2 small metallic spheres, S1 and S2. In
front of sphere S2, at a distance of 1 to 2 cm, was a third sphere, S3,
linked to a segment of wire, S5 - the whole thing forming a capacity. Under
the coils was a cup filled with a specially prepared powder. The powder was
a mix of crushed chalk, sand from the factory's yard and an activation
product obtained in previous experiments. Before irradiation, this powder
had to spend one night in a crystallizer dish, with brome water, to which
was added sodium amalgam. Two electrodes, linked to a dry battery, plunged
in the crystallizer and remained plugged all night. Then the substance was
put on a glass plate and irradiated by the Crookes tube's beam, during 5 to
7 minutes."

After that, the mixture turned radioactive, as measured by Geiger counters.
Lab analysis (at Zurich Polytechnic and French CEA) showed natural decay
products of uranium and thorium, and "something else" which was apparently
never identified.

"In another experiment, Coutelen would plug the selfs in a different way,
and radioactivity would disappear."

Some other snips of info from this (short) chapter of the book :

"Best results are obtained with a nickel anti-cathode. Concerning the high
tension source, it is advised to choose a coil fed with a mercury turbine.
Current must be rectified with a kenotron. It seems that peaks in the
tension, due to interruptions of the mercury turbine, are a contributing
factor."

"One day, uring transport, the old Crookes tube was broken. A new, more
modern one was provided, and there were no results any more."

"Makers of old Crookes tubes often added impurities in the glass, notably
thorium, to bolster efficiency."

"With the old Crookes tube, results were variable, the system would not
function in certain places."

Apparently Coutelen thought his apparatus tapped "cosmic energy".

(*)  Mail me if you want the scans of the drawings (Jpg, 69 kB and 25 kB)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jean-Pierre Lentin
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  4 05:25:07 1999
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Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 04:27:15 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: info from Mizuno
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At 10:21 PM 6/3/99, Michael T Huffman wrote:
>>
>>An interesting prospect, for those inclined toward the Edisonian approach,
>>like me, and a means to try to figure out what is going on, might be to try
>>floating a rotating plate cathode just a hair above the liquid surface to
>>get a more uniform interaction between the electrode and electrolyte.  This
>>would then continue to  make the electrolyte the anode, a nice target for
>>the incoming electrons from the hot cathode, and the perfect medium for
>>absorbing electron kinetic energy, either individually, or in spark form,
>>in bubble forming pathways.
>
>I thought about this once before, Horace, and it has some interesting
>possibilities.  A rotating disk moves the free electrons to the outside rim
>by centrifical force.  This is a mechanical version of the Hall Effect.


This is not what I had in mind, however.  BTW, the effect you are
mentioning is very small.  A much much greater potential can be generated
by spinning a dielectric instead of a conductor, but it is in the OPPOSITE
direction, i.e. it is from the much larger effect of displacing the
positive nucleii in the dielectric lattice, more akin to the piezoelectic
effect.  Unfortunately, this effect won't generate much of a current, and
there is no reason to think either effect is ou, except I have hypothesized
here in the past that the atomic distortion from centrifuging will decrease
half-life by increasing orbital electron time in the nucleus, and should
have a significant effect on electron capture half-life in particular, but
possibly fissioning, due to the triggering effect of the extra 0.5 MeV
energy content of electrons that deep in the coulomb well.

The purpose of rotating the plate is to quickly break any meniscus and to
facilitate steam/gas separation, and to maintain a uniform arc/spark
condition, as well as, by providing a top lip, preventing electrolyte
bubbling up the outlet tube.  I am not sure the rotation is necessary, but
I think it is an in teresting idea.  Thermostatically controlled heating of
the electrode, maybe from the back side via filament in a ceramic jacket,
might be more important due to achieving efficient and nicely controlled
electronation.

BTW, I think the way to build an excellent Brown's gas generator is to
rotate the (round) metal plate stack at a moderate rpm on an insulating
plastic axle, and to use a stationary plastic vertical "wiper" blade
inserted between each plate to remove the bubbles.  This is IMHO far
superior to "bumping" the generator.  It permits placing the plates much
closer together, and the plate rotation takes very little energy in
comparison to the improvement in electrolysis efficiency.  If you don't
want Brown's gas, then use of a membrane between the plates and connected
to the plastic wipers, along with DC electrolysis current, permits an
efficient hydrogen production by reducing plate separation while also
minimizing the resistance increase due to bubble formation.  The assembly
is nicely placed inside a 6" horizontal plexaglas tube, with gas takeoffs
and wiper mounts bored into the top.  The wipers can be made with holes in
the ends to accomodate a sliding connection with the central rotating
plastic shaft. The shaft can be turned by plastic chain drive from above
the electrolyte.  You can abviously also move wipers over stationary
plates, but that does not permit the nice way the gas exits at the top.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  4 06:07:06 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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John Schnurer wrote:

>         Dear Folks,
>
>         Below, see flag, question;
>
> On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 01 Jun 1999 23:59:04 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:
> > [snip]
> > >sensitive calorimeter will see an effect.
> ______________ FLAG ________________
>
>  Rarely, a piece is found which is
> > >mostly crack-free and is found to be very active.
>
>   ________________-  A piece of WHAT ?  ___________

A piece of palladium

>
>
>   The conditions required to
> > >prevent crack formation are not well known outside of Johnson-Matthey company.




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  4 06:47:27 1999
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Second Copy

DISCLAIMER, DISCLAIMER: This is a cross-posting. I just recieved this
message from something called "Alt Energy" which I did not know I was
signed up for. I know nothing about this conference and I do not endorse
it, but at least one of these speakers has his head screwed on straight:
Bill Beaty.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Steve Elswick" <exotic casagrande.com>
To: "Alt Energy" <info altenergy.org>
Subject: 21st Century Technology Conference -- July 22-25, 1999
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:30:29 -0700
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Phoenix Exotic Research Conference!!!
July 22-25, 1999... Members get 15% off by preregistering before June 30,
1999.
http://www.exoticresearch.com/events/program/prgframe.htm
Contact: Steve Elswick (520) 424-3581

SEEING IS BELIEVING!!!!   See  WORKING ANTIGRAVITY DEVICES!   Discover an
ENGINE THAT RUNS ON MOUNTAIN DEW!!   Weld metal to glass with BROWN'S  GAS!
 Watch  STIRLING ENGINES at work!  POWER your house with ENERGY FROM AIR!
Put suppressed ELECTROMEDICINE to the test! Movement can be retored in
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It's all HAPPENING at the PHOENIX EXOTIC  RESEARCH  CONFERENCE   July 22-25
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This is EXTREME SCIENCE  that is for REAL!  Some people believe that
this information should be suppressed...  BUT Exotic Research  makes it
available!!!!!! this
exciting http://www.exoticresearch.com/events/program/prgframe.htm

MEET the great inventors/researchers like Paul Pantone, Brian David
Andersen, George Wiseman, Bruce Perreault, Tom Valone and many
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the UP CLOSE! Spend the evening discussing it with the
inventor... Sign up today... Check website for complete program.
http://www.exoticresearch.com/events/program/prgframe.htm

WE'RE THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN SCIENCE!!!


CONFERENCE PROGRAM......

THURSDAY &middot; Jul 22 
Session 1 - Modern Health
7:00PM:  Ron Waling, NMD  - Heart Guard.. Your First Line of Defense!
9:00PM:  Wine & Cheese

FRIDAY  &middot;  July 23
Session 2 (Morning)  &bull;  Alternative Medical Technology
8:00AM:  Dan Kunkel - Bio-Resonance Sound Therapy
9:00AM:  James Bare, DC  - Resonance Frequency Therapy... Comes of Age
10:00AM:  Eleanor Rigler-Thai Gibbs, MS - Neuro-Kinesthetics... Hope for
Paralysis
>
Session 3 (Afternoon) &bull;  Modern Health Hazards and Solutions
1:00PM:  Steve Ammerman - TTL - Secret Soviet Performance Enhancer!!!
2:00PM:  Roger Sears - The Secret of Negative Ions
3:00PM:  Joseph Bender - Water... The Exotic Material
4:00PM:  Walter Rawls. PhD - Prospects for Our Magnetic Future

Session 4 (Evening) --- Health and Energy
7:00PM:  Brian David Andersen - Harmonic Elements and the Quantum Disk
9:00PM:  Wine & Cheese

SATURDAY &middot; July 24
Session 5 (Morning)  &bull; Antigravity Concepts & Reality
8:00AM:  Tom Valone - Electrogravitics... 21st Century Propulsion
9:00AM:  Dan LaRochelle - David Hamel Technology... the poor man's Searl
device
10:00AM:  Rick Todish - Working Model of an Ionic Propulsion Antigravity
Craft

Session 6 (Afternoon)  &bull;  Advanced Energy Concepts
1:00PM:  Bill Beaty, BSEE - How Electricity REALLY Works!
2:00PM:  Bruce Perreault - The "Nu" Generation of Radiant Energy Devices
3:00PM:  Jeffery Hayes - Tesla Turbines... The Nest Generation!
4:00PM:  George Wiseman - Brown's Gas... Key to a Hydrogen Economy!

Session 7 (Evening) --- Keys to the 21st Century
7:00PM:  Don Isaac, Jr.  - The Stirling Engine... Revival of a
"Forgotten" Technology
9pm-???:  Wine & Cheese

SUNDAY &middot;  July 25
Session 8 (Morning)  &bull; Exotic Technology Concepts
8:00AM:  GEET Research Parade of Inventions - 3-hour live preview of
various inventors


WORKSHOP
THURSDAY &middot; July 22
9:00AM:  Brian David Andersen  - Rhythms of Nature Workshop
1:00PM:  Bruce Perreault  - Radiant Energy Workshop

SUNDAY &middot; July 25
1:00PM:  Paul Pantone   - Incredible World of GEET Technology Workshop

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  4 07:52:11 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Alkaline (KOH) Rechargeable Batteries
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 07:44:30 -0700 
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Fred
	Scott measured the charging of NiCd's when he first was calibrating
his original calorimeters. Look in the archives, or ask him.

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Frederick  Sparber[SMTP:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, June 03, 1999 9:01 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: Alkaline (KOH) Rechargeable Batteries
> 
> Robin:
> 
> The Edison battery has a temperature limit of 115 Deg F, apparently
> dictated
> by the stability of NiO2? There is a Semiconducting compound of NiOx-Li as
> well as Semiconducting MnO2 which will easily plate (Anodize) on Nickel or
> Iron from a solution of Potassium Permanganate.  I've done this on brass
> using 15 volts or so.(Makes a good recombiner catalyst, too) Since PbO2 is
> used in Lead-Acid batteries it must be semiconducting also.
> 
> The point is, the KOH  (or K2CO3) electrolyte can be used in rechargeable
> alkaline batteries that are off-the-shelf for OU experiments.
> 
> Regards,      Frederick
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  4 11:05:21 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: info from Mizuno
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 12:53:04 -0400
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Horace wrote:
>BTW, I think the way to build an excellent Brown's gas generator is to
>rotate the (round) metal plate stack at a moderate rpm on an insulating
>plastic axle, and to use a stationary plastic vertical "wiper" blade
>inserted between each plate to remove the bubbles.

Horace, you're a genius!  Thanks,

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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----- Original Message -----
From: Scudder, Henry J <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 1999 8:44 AM
Subject: RE: Alkaline (KOH) Rechargeable Batteries

Will do, Hank, but I was thinking more in terms of discharging the cells and
appling a reverse current/potential.

Fred


> Fred
> Scott measured the charging of NiCd's when he first was calibrating
> his original calorimeters. Look in the archives, or ask him.
>
> Hank
>
> > ----------
> > From: Frederick  Sparber[SMTP:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Sent: Thursday, June 03, 1999 9:01 PM
> > To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Subject: Re: Alkaline (KOH) Rechargeable Batteries
> >
> > Robin:
> >
> > The Edison battery has a temperature limit of 115 Deg F, apparently
> > dictated
> > by the stability of NiO2? There is a Semiconducting compound of NiOx-Li
as
> > well as Semiconducting MnO2 which will easily plate (Anodize) on Nickel
or
> > Iron from a solution of Potassium Permanganate.  I've done this on brass
> > using 15 volts or so.(Makes a good recombiner catalyst, too) Since PbO2
is
> > used in Lead-Acid batteries it must be semiconducting also.
> >
> > The point is, the KOH  (or K2CO3) electrolyte can be used in
rechargeable
> > alkaline batteries that are off-the-shelf for OU experiments.
> >
> > Regards,      Frederick
> >
> >
> >
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  4 14:04:47 1999
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Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 15:57:57 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: PLEC:  Run 3
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I have conducted a third run.  A description including photos can be found at:

http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/run3.html

I made two changes for this run.

1. A stirrer was added to the cell.  However it was barely stirring during
the run due probably to binding from thermal expansion.

2. The cell was operated at a higher temperature...about 90C.

There was no sign of excess heat.   My I vs V curve is maybe a little better.

I will fix the stirrer and try again probably on Monday.  

I still await the cathodes from Mizuno.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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At 03:57 PM 6/4/99 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>I have conducted a third run.  A description including photos can be found
at:
>
>http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/run3.html
>
>I made two changes for this run.
>
>1. A stirrer was added to the cell.  However it was barely stirring during
>the run due probably to binding from thermal expansion.
>
>2. The cell was operated at a higher temperature...about 90C.
>
>There was no sign of excess heat.   My I vs V curve is maybe a little better.
>
>I will fix the stirrer and try again probably on Monday.  
>
>I still await the cathodes from Mizuno.




"The run starts with about 1.2 hours of equilibration time."

  Why is the active run, on the order of the equilibrium
time (measured by Pout, for example)?

"As you can see from the Pout trace, the
observed heat output power rose up and leveled off at 
a value very nearly equal to Pin, indicating no 
significant excess heat generation."

  Why does Pin drop just before the expt ends?  
What do you see?  This is after the sheath forms, right?

Why did you shut the expt when Pout was (though it
was probably not going to stay that way) greater than
Pin?  

   Mitchell Swartz



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At 05:32 PM 6/4/99 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>Why is the active run, on the order of the equilibrium
>time (measured by Pout, for example)?

Mizuno's own active runs are quite short (I don't have the exact figure
that Jed quoted but I think it's ~ 20 minutes).  That means the excess heat
effect appears quickly....when it appears.  I waited until it was obvious
to me that Pout was not going to exceed Pin and then ended the run.  The
life of the W cathode is only about 1 hour.

> Why does Pin drop just before the expt ends?  
>What do you see?  This is after the sheath forms, right?

OK, first of all, the sheath always forms when the voltage exceeds about
120.  Therefore for the ~25 minute period when Pin was roughly constant
(120-115 watts) and Vcell was 140, the sheath was fully formed, the cathode
exhibited orange incandescence, and there was the usual display of white
spark flashes around the edge of the cathode.  As I understand it now,
these are the conditions under which Mizuno has observed the strong excess
heat effect.

Regarding the apparent "Pin drop", you are actually looking at the behavior
of Pin as I stepped the voltage down to collect the I vs V data.  When the
voltage is reduced, the first thing that happens is a more-or-less linear
reduction in input power.  However, when the critical voltage (about 80
volts on this run) is reached where the sheath collapses, the current
shoots up suddenly and Pin goes up with it...in this case to ~150 watts.
Further decrease in voltage then causes an orderly decrease in Pin down to
zero.

It looks like Pin just drops precipitously but actually there are many
steps, each only 15 seconds long, as I stepped down the voltage to collect
the I vs V data.

>Why did you shut the expt when Pout was (though it
>was probably not going to stay that way) greater than
>Pin?  

As explained above, the power balance measurement was over at the moment
that Pin began dropping sharply from its 120-115 watt plateau.  This moment
is also marked by a sudden decline in the Pout trace after it had been flat
for ~10 minutes.  Of course, the Pout trace drops rather slowly because of
the substantial heat content of the calorimeter contents.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  4 21:50:47 1999
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration
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 All,
  Here follows four tables of varying input voltage with a fixed resistance
 across the HV secondary.  I monitored Vin, Ain, Win, Vout and Aout
 V=volts, A=amps, W=watts.

  The ignition transformer specs are:
 Primary  DC resistance is 2.3 ohms.
 Secondary DC resistance is 17,970 ohms.

 Secondary open, in amps=0.42, in watts=12.32   122.0 VAC input
 Secondary shorted, in amps=2.03, in watts=33.49   122.0 VAC input.

 Voltage and current monitored with DMM's.
 Watts monitored with a calibrated watt-hour meter.

     64 Kohm fixed load
  Vin-------Ain-------Win-------Vout-----Aout
  52.0-----0.72------6.49------500-----0.0065
  62.0-----0.86----10.43------600-----0.0080
  72.4-----1.20----14.76------700-----0.0095
  82.3-----1.16----20.17------800-----0.0113
  92.1-----1.32----26.26------900-----0.0129
100.5-----1.47----32.40----1000-----0.0144
113.5-----1.74----45.01----1100-----0.0170

     86 Kohm load
  Vin-------Ain-------Win-------Vout-----Aout
  38.7-----0.52------3.67-------500-----0.0046
  46.6-----0.63------5.99-------600-----0.0057
  54.1-----0.75------9.08-------700-----0.0068
  61.8-----0.85----12.43-------800-----0.0080
  69.4-----0.92----15.89-------900-----0.0092
  76.9-----1.05----20.51-----1000-----0.0102
  84.3-----1.19----24.59-----1100-----0.0115
  90.7-----1.29----29.33-----1200-----0.0125
  97.9-----1.40----35.21-----1300-----0.0137
103.8-----1.52----40.60-----1400-----0.0147
109.7-----1.64----46.43-----1500-----0.0159
114.9-----1.75----53.22-----1600-----0.0171

    101 Kohm load.
  Vin-------Ain-------Win-------Vout-----Aout
  60.0-----0.83----12.73------900-----0.0077
  66.2-----0.90----15.76-----1000----0.0085
  73.0-----1.00----19.33-----1100----0.0097
  79.1-----1.10----23.10-----1200----0.0107
  85.2-----1.19----27.20-----1300----0.0116
  91.2-----1.25----31.23-----1400----0.0124
  97.0-----1.38----37.35-----1500----0.0135
102.4-----1.48----42.04-----1600----0.0145
107.7-----1.58----47.82-----1700----0.0154
112.5-----1.68----54.35-----1800----0.0164

  148 Kohm load
  Vin-------Ain-------Win-------Vout-----Aout
  42.1-----0.58------7.03-------900-----0.0048
  46.7-----0.63------8.58-----1000-----0.0056
  51.5-----0.70----11.09-----1100-----0.0062
  55.7-----0.75----12.36-----1200-----0.0067
  60.4-----0.81----15.63-----1300-----0.0074
  65.1-----0.87----18.86-----1400-----0.0081
  69.3-----0.93----20.71-----1500-----0.0088
  73.8-----1.00----24.50-----1600-----0.0094
  78.3-----1.06----27.79-----1700-----0.0101
  82.6-----1.12----31.12-----1800-----0.0108
  86.7-----1.18----34.64-----1900-----0.0113
  91.1-----1.25----38.78-----2000-----0.0121
  95.3-----1.31----42.31-----2100-----0.0127
  99.3-----1.38----46.68-----2200-----0.0134
102.6-----1.44----51.00-----2300-----0.0140
106.8-----1.52----56.38-----2400-----0.0148
110.5-----1.58----61.89-----2500-----0.0154
113.7-----1.65----66.49-----2600-----0.0160

All, I really need help to sort this out and come up with some sort
of a table or formula for the operating characteristics of the HV supply.

I want also to run an additional test with a 300 Kohm load but I ran out
of resistors. Will attack that tomorrow and post data as soon as done.
 
Frank Stenger did some nice calculations for the fixed
voltage input tests I ran about a month ago. I know it's a lot of
work but could you help out again?

All comments are most welcome. 

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas Nevada
702-254-2122 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  4 22:10:56 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 01:14:06 -0400
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Hi Vince,

        Are you or have you considered using a spreadsheet to look at these
numbers?

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  5 07:53:12 1999
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration
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In a message dated 06/04/1999 22:10:41 Pacific Daylight Time, knuke LCIA.COM 
writes:

> Hi Vince,
> Are you or have you considered using a spreadsheet to look at these
> numbers?
> Knuke
>  Michael T. Huffman

Yes I have but the problem is I am not skilled in making one of them
work for me. I know there must be a way to sort all this out.
I have Lotus 123 and have been trying but I don't know the best way
to enter the data in the spreadsheet to be understandable, ie, which
columns or rows to enter the data in...Make one sheet for each load
resistance?...or combine it all on one sheet (preferred) ?...or...?

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  5 09:33:05 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 12:33:51 -0400
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Hi Vince,

There is a very simple spreadsheet model that I did for some runs that I
made when testing my device that can give you an idea of how to lay one out.
You can find it in the Cavitation College in the Lab Notebook section.
Ideally, a spreadsheet should include all of the variables from each run,
the derived results, and a field for notes.  You can put all of the
variables in a row, and do the caclulations for those variables in that same
row.  The next row would have the same information for the next run, and so
on.  Then at the bottom, you can do the calculations for all the rows, if
there are any.

For example, on a given run, you have the date, start time, ending time, Vi,
Ii, etc. and on that same row, you would put the formulae that you use to
derive the results of that run.  You would take the start time, and subtract
it from the end time to get the total run time.  You would take the Vi and
multiply it by Ii to get the Wi, and so on.  Hank can post the formulae, and
I could put it into "spreadsheet math" if you like.  Then we could debug it
for error, and move on.  You can use the graphing functions and other built
in math tools to analyse the data, and actually see trends, etc..  It helps
to formalize the experiment, and give it some discipline, so that if you do
see any anomalous behavior infrequently, it is not so easily dismissed as a
fluke.  Over time, you can also build a good library of formulae to use in
other experiments.

What I did also, was to print out a blank data sheet that I would fill in
manually during each run, then type the data into the spreadsheet, and hit
the calc button.  It's great.  It's takes a little bit of effort to learn
how to set one up, but compared to looking for hydrinos in a pile of  C60
and other exotic soot, it really is a piece of cake.  You can also set them
up for financial purposes, so that you can see exactly where your money
goes, and again, using my case as an example, exactly to the penny, you can
see just how hopelessly screwed you really are, and will continue to be over
time. 8^)  It's a great tool! 

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  5 10:29:05 1999
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June 5, 1999

Vortex,

Knuke made a good suggestion/question on Vince's colected data as posted here.

I've used 123 since it was known in its original simpler VisiCalc version.
It is a very good analysis program.

First,  you see the spreadsheet format when loaded in with the cells.

Now, input into each cell, horizontally and vertically, all the data and labels
just as you have posted on the vortex (leave out the dashes).
Appearances can be cleaned up, moved around if necessary, and expanded after the
data
has been inputted.
The thing is to start simple then elaborate as the use of the data, such as
formulas based on them, come to mind.
These calculated formula based data are inputted into a column of cells to the
right of the data under a proper label.
Since the formula is used for each row of data, just enter it once. Then you can
copy the formula for each row to obtain the respective calulated data. Study the
section in 123 on relative and fixed cell reference  use in the copy function
before doing this.
On the common operating spec values first noted, such as the resistance, volts,
transformer values, etc, list these values in separate cells so if needed, these
values can be cell referenced by the formula. This includes the Kohm load values
for eah data section. These are the fixed cell data. The relative cell data are
the different cell values referenced by the formula for each row.

Later, with the 123 capabilities, you should be able to use all this to graph
out your runs and results.

Good luck!

-AK-



VCockeram aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 06/04/1999 22:10:41 Pacific Daylight Time, knuke LCIA.COM
> writes:
>
> > Hi Vince,
> > Are you or have you considered using a spreadsheet to look at these
> > numbers?
> > Knuke
> >  Michael T. Huffman
>
> Yes I have but the problem is I am not skilled in making one of them
> work for me. I know there must be a way to sort all this out.
> I have Lotus 123 and have been trying but I don't know the best way
> to enter the data in the spreadsheet to be understandable, ie, which
> columns or rows to enter the data in...Make one sheet for each load
> resistance?...or combine it all on one sheet (preferred) ?...or...?



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  5 12:17:38 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration
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At 10:51 AM 6/5/99 EDT, VCockeram aol.com wrote:

>I have Lotus 123 and have been trying but I don't know the best way
>to enter the data in the spreadsheet to be understandable....

Vince, I was able to cut and paste the tabular data you posted on Vortex
into Excel and then use Excel's Text-to-Columns function to turn it into a
spreadsheet that looks just like your table.

I then added a  new column called Wout which is the product of Vout and Aout.

I then plotted Wout vs Win for each of the loads you tested.  Each set of
observations makes a nice straight line, the slope of which represents the
efficiency of the xfmr with that particular load.  The slopes are as follows:

64 kohm load      Wout = 0.43*Win
86 kohm load      Wout = 0.51*Win
101 kohm load     Wout = 0.55*Win
148 kohm load     Wout = 0.63*Win

With these numbers you could easily construct a plot that gives you
efficiency vs load resistance.

Then, during a run with an unknown load resistance, you could first divide
the observed Vout by the observed Aout to determine the load resistance and
then consult the eff vs loadR plot to find the eff., then multiply your
measured Win (via the watthour meter) by the eff to get the Wout, which is
the power delivered to the experiment.

The only hitch in all this is that something is slightly amiss with your
Vout-Aout numbers.  When I divide Vout by Aout for each load resistance, I
should get pretty close to the advertised resistance.  However, in each
case, the result starts out rather higher and works its way down closer to
the nominal value as you raised the voltage.  I doubt if this effect is the
temp coeff of the resistors...it's too big (I think).  Rather I suspect
errors in your current measurement...the smallest value involved.  Here are
the ranges I get...you can check them for yourself:

nominal value          range of Vout/Aout
64 kohm                 77k - 65k
86 kohm                109k - 94k 
101 kohm               117k - 110k
148 kohm               188k - 163k

Did the load R's get blazing hot during these tests?  Are your R values
measured with a meter?

Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  5 15:56:42 1999
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From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration/123 spreadsheet use
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June 5, 1999

Scott, nice of you to do Vince's work.
He should try it out himself to get mastery of his 123 and work out shortcuts
with that mastery..
I'm sure he will find familiarity with the program useful in the future..

-ak-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  5 17:00:16 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: info from Mizuno
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 23:58:58 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Fri, 4 Jun 1999 04:27:15 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
[snip]
>and wiper mounts bored into the top.  The wipers can be made with holes in
>the ends to accomodate a sliding connection with the central rotating
>plastic shaft. The shaft can be turned by plastic chain drive from above
>the electrolyte.  You can abviously also move wipers over stationary
>plates, but that does not permit the nice way the gas exits at the top.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
Horace I think this one would have been worth a patent. You are most
generous.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  5 17:03:47 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: 21st Century Technology Conference -- July 22-25, 1999
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 00:02:37 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <375aba3a.65731028 mail-hub>
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On Fri, 04 Jun 1999 09:44:38 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
[snip]
>MEET the great inventors/researchers like Paul Pantone, Brian David
>Andersen, George Wiseman, Bruce Perreault, Tom Valone and many
[snip]
For anyone attending, be advised, that by his own admission, Bruce
Perreault doesn't believe that gamma radiation is harmful to humans.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  5 17:23:52 1999
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Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 20:23:39 -0400
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
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VCockeram aol.com wrote:
>
(snip transformer data)

Vince, I'm sorry I've not "hooked into" your latest work in more detail.
I'm sort of up to my neck in home remodel stuff again. :-(

Scott's comments were very interesting - does anyone know exactly what
the nice modern "true RMS" meters do to produce the RMS output?

And, just what are the limits on multiplying an RMS voltage across a
device with the RMS current thru the device to get power?  Of course,
power factor is involved, but just what does this mean for any sort of
random "spikey" load?  In other words, how about a load with alternating
but not strictly periodic waveforms?  These worries would not apply to a
nice stable resistor, but how about the gas tube?  Would there be any
reverse ignition delay with Vince's tube? - I forgot if this had been
discussed in a past post.

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  5 18:00:16 1999
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Message-ID: <3759E328.7A8791ED sunherald.infi.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 19:55:36 -0700
From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> For anyone attending, be advised, that by his own admission, Bruce
> Perreault doesn't believe that gamma radiation is harmful to humans.

Really? Gamma rays are highly energetic, highly penetrating radiation.
They have been shown experimentally to cause cell mutations, radiation
sickness, etc. If I were him, I'd be more fearful of gamma rays than of
alpha 'rays'...alpha is easy to screen...gamma ain't.

Speaking of radiation, has anyone heard of Barker's (?) supposed method
of reducing radioactive material by placing said material in a Van de
Graff generator sphere? Has it been tested?

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  5 19:13:27 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: info from Mizuno
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At 3:58 PM 6/5/99, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>On Fri, 4 Jun 1999 04:27:15 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>[snip]
>>and wiper mounts bored into the top.  The wipers can be made with holes in
>>the ends to accomodate a sliding connection with the central rotating
>>plastic shaft. The shaft can be turned by plastic chain drive from above
>>the electrolyte.  You can abviously also move wipers over stationary
>>plates, but that does not permit the nice way the gas exits at the top.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Horace Heffner
>Horace I think this one would have been worth a patent. You are most
>generous.


Thanks.  I'm glad to have given an idea someone can use.  My hit rate is
not as good as I would like.  I don't know for sure it is novel, not having
done a patent search.  As for patenting, I don't have the wherewithall to
manufacture now, and expecting to make money licensing widgets is typically
fantasy.

If I had a simple idea that I felt was worth a lot of money that I could
readily maunufacture without risking my retirement financial base I would
gladly pursue it for capital gain.  I don't see this being that idea.  In
general, the prospect of going into business without risking everything
financially is slim, and I can no longer afford to do that.

As for patenting things really worth something, I have for some years sat
on some steller ideas more in my field, computing, incapable of moving on
them because they are way too big to get my arms around, and are so far
ahead of their time  They are (were) lynchpin technology,
requiring/engendering major development.  The stuff sits in boxes in my
crawl space, mostly forgotten.  I am tired of big ideas I can't do, and who
is going to listen to a fat cantankerous old retired guy without a degree?
It is a joy now just to have an idea someone may actually use, and to get
it rolling just by typing away.  It is fun to wake up and not know what the
day may bring.  That's life on vortex.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  5 19:49:17 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ross Tessien <Tessien oro.net>
Subject: Hydrino Theory ?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990604223113.008f4210 mail.eden.com>
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I was reading an interview with Mills, with the description of the "auto
catalytic" process and hydrino formation.  I understand reasonably well
what he says he is doing  / wants to do.

Something is fishy.

He says that the electron is falling down into lower and lower fractional
valences (orbitals).  I have no problem with this assertion and it seems
reasonable and logical.

But, he also says that energy comes out when the electron falls into lower
valences, which is where things go awry.  If I track the "mass" of the
proton electron system, I can apply E=mc^2 to the combined mass and watch
if the mass is getting larger or smaller, where it must get smaller if
energy has come out, and larger if energy has gone in.

Benchmark  0:   proton plus electron separately in space
Benchmark 1:   atomic hydrogen, ground state
Benchmark 2:   neutron


At Benchmark 1, we begin with the base mass of the hydrogen atom as a
starting point.  In order to go toward 0, we must put energy into the atom
to ionize it and remove the electron.  In order to go toward 2, we must put
energy into the proton electron system in order to collapse the electron
down into the nucleus and to form a neutron.

So, Mill's is claiming that by going toward 2 from 1, that you can get some
more energy out.  But as you do that, you are becoming more and more like a
neutron.  The problem is, as you become more like a neutron, which has a
greater mass than hydrogen (state 1 above), Mill's claims to be getting
more energy out.  At some point, any model must cross a saddle point where
the energy starts going back up again and the mass starts increasing again.
 It is logical to assume that the saddle point is in fact, the ground state
of hydrogen.

Hence, it seems that Mill's should in fact be able to create his hydrinos,
and hence he should be capable of identifying those species in astro
physical spectra.  But, those should **absorb** energy from their
surroundings, not release it.  ie, in the Na Na H collision he speaks of in
the gas phase device, it seems to me that the collision should crush the
hydrogen atom down into that hydrino state, by ABSORBING energy, not by
emitting it.  

Some how, you need to get from the atomic state, to the neutron state, and
you ought to arrive there assymptotically as the electron orbitals become
increasingly close to the nucleus.  I'm certain the math could be worked
out for that if anyone cared.  But I would be interested in any comments on
the fact that the mass energy is pointed in the wrong direction and how
Mills explains that fact.

rt



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  5 19:52:17 1999
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Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 18:46:15 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: More on a Brown's gas generator
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A better design might be to recline the tube and axle, say to 45 degrees.
This permits using a direct drive, plus mounting small diameter brushes to
the axle away from the electrolyte, and running an insulated wire down the
axle to the bottom plate.  The gas takeoff and brush mounts might best be
implemented by sawing a slit up the side of the tube, and mounting a long
cap using a soft gasket.

Earlier I wrote:

"BTW, I think the way to build an excellent Brown's gas generator is to
rotate the (round) metal plate stack at a moderate rpm on an insulating
plastic axle, and to use a stationary plastic vertical "wiper" blade
inserted between each plate to remove the bubbles.  This is IMHO far
superior to "bumping" the generator.  It permits placing the plates much
closer together, and the plate rotation takes very little energy in
comparison to the improvement in electrolysis efficiency.  If you don't
want Brown's gas, then use of a membrane between the plates and connected
to the plastic wipers, along with DC electrolysis current, permits an
efficient hydrogen production by reducing plate separation while also
minimizing the resistance increase due to bubble formation.  The assembly
is nicely placed inside a 6" horizontal plexaglas tube, with gas takeoffs
and wiper mounts bored into the top.  The wipers can be made with holes in
the ends to accomodate a sliding connection with the central rotating
plastic shaft. The shaft can be turned by plastic chain drive from above
the electrolyte.  You can abviously also move wipers over stationary
plates, but that does not permit the nice way the gas exits at the top."

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  5 21:23:20 1999
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-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Saturday, June 05, 1999 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: 21st Century Technology Conference -- July 22-25, 1999


Robin wrote:


>On Fri, 04 Jun 1999 09:44:38 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>[snip]
>>MEET the great inventors/researchers like Paul Pantone, Brian David
>>Andersen, George Wiseman, Bruce Perreault, Tom Valone and many
>[snip]
>For anyone attending, be advised, that by his own admission, Bruce
>Perreault doesn't believe that gamma radiation is harmful to humans.


Interesting paper at :
http://whyfiles.news.wisc.edu/020radiation/cameron_letter.html
discusses this issue.

Perreault's current discoveries, along the lines of Moray and Farnsworth
work, indicates efficient nuclear fusion reaction without the need of
harmful radioactive materials.

Regards,   Michael Randall

>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  5 22:24:17 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: 21st Century Technology Conference -- July 22-25, 1999
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 01:27:53 -0400
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Kyle wrote:
>Speaking of radiation, has anyone heard of Barker's (?) supposed method
>of reducing radioactive material by placing said material in a Van de
>Graff generator sphere? Has it been tested?
>
>Kyle R. Mcallister

Mike Mandeville, I believe, was involved with the testing of that method,
and it was supposed to have been taken to PNW for further testing.  Mike was
a frequent contributor to the Vortex Group in its earliest days.  He was
also one of the people that would show up at the Seattle Weird Science Club
meetings.  I wasn't a frequent attendee of those meetings (and I could kick
myself all day for that), but at the last two that I did attend, he wasn't
there.  He still has a website at aa.net, last time I looked, and I think
the URL was:
http://www.aa.net/~mwm/
He was also involved with writing a book on some new theories on tectonic
plate movement, and doing some consulting with some Russians on trade with
the US.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 01:27:59 -0400
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Horace wrote:
>A better design might be to recline the tube and axle, say to 45 degrees.
>This permits using a direct drive, plus mounting small diameter brushes to
>the axle away from the electrolyte, and running an insulated wire down the
>axle to the bottom plate.  The gas takeoff and brush mounts might best be
>implemented by sawing a slit up the side of the tube, and mounting a long
>cap using a soft gasket.

Well, I have to wait until I get the books from Wiseman because I don't
really understand what the power requirements are, but I have some ideas on
simplifying the power supply, and actually making it a part of the shaft.
I'll make some drawings once I see exactly what the requirements are.  Right
now, all I really know is that it is a very low voltage, between 1 and 2
volts, electrolysis device.  There are other things that I have heard about
the waveform, but will have to gather all that stuff.  I want to avoid any
brush contact if possible, near the machine.  It will probably look like
something Rube Goldberg designed when I finish with it, but if it entertains
and amuses while it generates gas, so much the better.  It would be kind of
like ME! 8^)

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: info from Mizuno
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 01:27:56 -0400
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Horace wrote:
  I am tired of big ideas I can't do, and who
>is going to listen to a fat cantankerous old retired guy without a degree?
>It is a joy now just to have an idea someone may actually use, and to get
>it rolling just by typing away.  It is fun to wake up and not know what the
>day may bring.  That's life on vortex.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

As it happens Horace, I was just getting ready to order the Wiseman books
and start building a small BG generator.  I had talked at length with Todd
Knuteson about it, and was going to do it on the FreeNRG group as a public
domain project.  He was going to walk me through it, and make some
additional remarks for improvements on the existing design that he knew
about.  You know me though, I can't do anything by the book, and was looking
for something to improve upon the existing state of the art.  Your idea is a
pretty radical departure, and I liked it a lot.  I appreciate it, and will
let you know when I get around to actually making it.

Knuke

        
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  5 23:28:08 1999
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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199906060627.BAA06674 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrino Theory ?
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990605193154.009b5170 pop3.oro.net> from Ross Tessien at "Jun 5, 99 07:44:56 pm"
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> If I track the "mass" of the
> proton electron system, I can apply E=mc^2 to the combined mass and watch
> if the mass is getting larger or smaller, where it must get smaller if
> energy has come out, and larger if energy has gone in.
> 
> Benchmark  0:   proton plus electron separately in space
> Benchmark 1:   atomic hydrogen, ground state
> Benchmark 2:   neutron
> 
> 
> At Benchmark 1, we begin with the base mass of the hydrogen atom as a
> starting point.  In order to go toward 0, we must put energy into the atom
> to ionize it and remove the electron.  In order to go toward 2, we must put
> energy into the proton electron system in order to collapse the electron
> down into the nucleus and to form a neutron.
> 
> So, Mill's is claiming that by going toward 2 from 1, that you can get some
> more energy out.  But as you do that, you are becoming more and more like a
> neutron.  The problem is, as you become more like a neutron, which has a
> greater mass than hydrogen (state 1 above), Mill's claims to be getting
> more energy out.  At some point, any model must cross a saddle point where
> the energy starts going back up again and the mass starts increasing again.
> It is logical to assume that the saddle point is in fact, the ground state
> of hydrogen.

Since a neutron is already heavier than an electron/proton in any of
the many orbital levels, including the ground state, your argument
could be extended to claim that even regular chemistry proceeds in
the *wrong* direction, since a decay from the 2nd orbital to the
1rst produces energy and reduces the mass of the system, shrinks
the atom "towards the neutron size" yet moves farther away from
the heavier neutron mass.

Nothing changes when you assert sub-ground states in the above,
whether they really exist or not.  They'll never converge on the
neutron mass since regular chemistry is already diverging.

It is therefore plainly evident that the neutron is, in fact,
not the least energy state of a electron/proton.  Rather, it happens
to be a particularly high energy state.

The physical dimension argument is, of course, visually compelling ...
that as the sub-orbitals cross the dimension of the neutron, they must
therefore become equivalent states -- but that has to be a supposition
rather than an inevitable fact.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  6 00:08:26 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
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At 1:27 AM 6/6/99, Michael T Huffman wrote:
[snip]
>
>Well, I have to wait until I get the books from Wiseman because I don't
>really understand what the power requirements are, but I have some ideas on
>simplifying the power supply, and actually making it a part of the shaft.
>I'll make some drawings once I see exactly what the requirements are.  Right
>now, all I really know is that it is a very low voltage, between 1 and 2
>volts, electrolysis device.  There are other things that I have heard about
>the waveform, but will have to gather all that stuff.  I want to avoid any
>brush contact if possible, near the machine.
[snip]

A typical approach is to fill most of the cross section of the electrolysis
tank with a stack of plates.  The conductivity of the electrolyte is much
less than the plates, so metal plates effectively divide the tank into
multiple independent cells, even thought there is a relatively  small
amount of current leakage around the plates with say a 1/8" gap to spare
around the edges of the plates. Each plate, except either pf the end
plates, is simultaneously an anode on one side and cathode on the other.
Since Brown's gas generators use AC, this role flips twice per cycle.
Using sufficient multiple plates handily avoids the need for any power
supply at all.  Just hook up 120 volts direct and use 61 plates, i.e. 60
gaps, to divide the 120 V into 2 V drop per cell.  KOH gets the best
results, but considering expense, 20% to 30% NaOH, plain old Red Devil Lye
which is available at the supermarket, works fine.  You might try improving
efficiency by placing a large capacitor in parallel with the cell.  This
has the effect of increasing the phase angle, thus reducing the power
factor, for a given total amount of AC current through the cell.

Wild Speculation: If you want to shoot for 2nd law busting behaviour, try
for most of the voltage curve between 1.23 V to 1.47 V per cell (RMS
voltage 1.039 V), at least something below 1.481 peak volts, the
thermoneutral voltage, for an an electrolysis voltage.  The cell should
then actually cool as it produces Brown's gas, according to data in "Fuel
from Water", Michael A. Peavy, Merit Inc., ISBN 0-945516-04-5, p. 22.
Ambient heat is then absorbed in doing the electrolysis. This range,
between the thermoneutral voltage and the reversible voltage, grows with
increased temperature and pressure.  If this is correct, then it might be
inferred that operating at a high pressure and temperature, with a BG
fueled sterling engine generator plus all else in a high temperature
enclosure, using the BG cell itself for cooling, that a device with COP > 1
could be built.  Unfortunately the gas volume generated also reduces at
this voltage range, so the energy balance probably works out.  Still a
curiosity.


At 1:27 AM 6/6/99, Michael T Huffman wrote:
[snip]
>You know me though, I can't do anything by the book, and was looking
>for something to improve upon the existing state of the art.  Your idea is a
>pretty radical departure, and I liked it a lot.  I appreciate it, and will
>let you know when I get around to actually making it.

Thanks!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  6 00:12:00 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: 21st Century Technology Conference -- July 22-25, 1999
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 07:10:50 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Sat, 5 Jun 1999 21:17:08 -0700, mrand access wrote:
[snip]
>Interesting paper at :
>http://whyfiles.news.wisc.edu/020radiation/cameron_letter.html
>discusses this issue.

This is interesting, though I would point out that accelerated decay
could result in very high gamma levels, far beyond the scope of this
document.

>
>Perreault's current discoveries, along the lines of Moray and Farnsworth
>work, indicates efficient nuclear fusion reaction without the need of
>harmful radioactive materials.
[snip]
I knew Bruce was working with accelerated decay. Could you give me a URL
for the fusion work? 


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  6 00:17:06 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
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You might try improving efficiency by placing a large capacitor (and
possibly inductor) in SERIES with the cell.  This has the effect of
increasing the phase angle, thus reducing the power factor, and putting a
larger amount of AC current through the cell per watt of input.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  6 00:28:40 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
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Forgot to mention that if you want to avoid sparks you can use mercury
brushes, or even an inductive coupling.

Also, if you run 120 V straight through, and cell resistance is too low,
you might need a balast, but that should not be a problem with 61 6" dia.
plates.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  6 00:42:16 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 07:25:58 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <375e221d.92333320 mail-hub>
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On Sat, 5 Jun 1999 23:17:44 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:

>You might try improving efficiency by placing a large capacitor (and
>possibly inductor) in SERIES with the cell.  This has the effect of
>increasing the phase angle, thus reducing the power factor, and putting a
>larger amount of AC current through the cell per watt of input.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>
Hi Horace,

Somehow this smells a little too much of "getting something for
nothing". Wouldn't it also drop the voltage across the cells?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, June 06, 1999 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: 21st Century Technology Conference -- July 22-25, 1999

[snip]
>I knew Bruce was working with accelerated decay. Could you give me a URL
>for the fusion work?

Lots of info at his web site:
http://www.cyberportal.net/nuenergy/main.html
His atomic theory at:
http://www.cyberportal.net/nuenergy/treatise.htm


Regards,  Michael Randall

>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  6 01:13:00 1999
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Subject: Newest News on Brown's gas 
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To: Vortex

George Wiseman's latest Browns Gas discovery at:
http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/watergas.html

Regards,   Michael Randall


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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 04:10:14 -0400
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>Forgot to mention that if you want to avoid sparks you can use mercury
>brushes, or even an inductive coupling.
>
>Also, if you run 120 V straight through, and cell resistance is too low,
>you might need a balast, but that should not be a problem with 61 6" dia.
>plates.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          


What I had in mind, and this is still vague, was building an alternator
right on to the shaft to supply the power, and turning the whole business
with a belt drive and DC motor with a MOSFET speed controller.  Like I
said...  Rube would have loved this one.  Then I also had an idea for making
homemade Kevlar out of long, dried, bamboo fiber dunked in 502 epoxy,
squeegeed off, and wrapped around the body in random directions like paper
machette, maybe 1/2" thick, just in case the thing got too energetic.  I
could use strands of palm tree branches, maybe, I'll have to tear one apart
and see how strong they are.  We've got enough of them down here.  The idea
that it might be a cold process is also a real plus, too.  It wouldn't be
real entertaining, of course, unless I had some bicycle parts thrown in, an
old sewing machine treadle, a pulley, and maybe a bowling ball rolled down
the roof, but I can work out those details.  The capacitor might be
difficult and clumsey to get on the shaft with the alternator.  I don't want
it to look stupid! 8^)

I suppose a straight wire from the wall, fused, the capacitor, and some
brushes might be the easiest, and if I made the shaft long enough, and put
the brushes far enough away from the body, it would be OK.  I was also going
to make the plates out of the tops and bottoms of coffee cans, if possible.
Think that would be OK?  I've been saving them.  What gauge wire would you
think best?  Would just regular multistrand copper do?

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  6 01:38:54 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Newest News on Brown's gas 
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 04:35:13 -0400
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>To: Vortex
>
>George Wiseman's latest Browns Gas discovery at:
>http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/watergas.html
>
>Regards,   Michael Randall

This changes the whole theory, entirely.  Interesting.  Todd told me some
wild stuff, including the water crystal idea, and that it seemed to be in
some kind of matrix.  He said that it could even be used as a shielding gas
for other gases.  I wonder how the wiper idea would affect the interplate
gas formation?  I could try it with or without, and see.  Looks like they
are doing some good stuff over there.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
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Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration
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All:

Some comments about power measurements in plasma hydrolysis cells, and
"power meters". I haven't followed the discussion in close detail, being
involved in an organ transplant in upgrading my computer. I have looked into
the problem to some extent as Ed Wall at NERL is also concerned with power
measurement in a plasma hydrolysis cell, where there is noise present.


Frank Stenger wrote:

>
>Scott's comments were very interesting - does anyone know exactly what
>the nice modern "true RMS" meters do to produce the RMS output?


You have to be VERY CAREFUL in using ANY "nice modern true RMS meters", or
for that matter ANY packaged meter in reading unknown signals where
anomalies may be important, as in new energy research. This includes the
Clark-Hess instrument Scott has, which is a recognized standard. I have
talked to the president of Clark-Hess and have some insight into what the
instrument actually does.

To produce the RMS value of a waveform you first square its value, which
removes any negative excursions, then you average the squared value over the
time interval of interest, and take the square root of that averaged value.
Sounds easy.
To get power, you multiply I X E and perform the same operations on the
product.

If the waveforms are sinusoidal and the load is resistive, you can just
multiply I & E and apply a calibration factor to the product, which is what
ordinary wattmeters do. Reactive loads introduce phase shift between I & E,
which can fool some meters and deceive sincere inventors of electrical OU
machines.

If the waveforms are spikes -- "crest factor" is the standard term -- then
the product I X E can reach high values while the average level is small.

It is in the multiplication that the trouble arises. Analog Devices has for
years produced IC's which contain solid state multipliers, which perform the
RMS operations. These are the foundation of many of the commercial
instruments. The catch is that the analog circuits have limited dynamic
range, and so limited "crest factor". They also have limited bandwidth,
although that can extend into the tens of kilohertz. This is OK for most
measurements on 60 Hz systems, such as motors, etc. You are in trouble with
wideband noise.

Clarke-Hess advertises wideband precision power meters. The CATCH is that
the process assumes that the waveform is cyclic and repetitive, which it is
in AC power systems. The instrument works like a wideband sampling
oscilloscope, sampling the incoming signals with a fast gate which advances
in time through repetitve cycles to produce a composite waveform to be
displayed. By sampling, there is time for an internal processor to perform
the RMS calculation before the next sample comes.

Tektronix makes an elegant hand held, battery operated instrument capable of
wideband power measurements. It can sample I and E simultaneously at a 500
MHz rate and display them on an LCD screen. Any screen can be captured in
memory. Once captured, an internal processor will perform an instantaneous
true RMS calculation and display it. The catch here is that the operation is
performed on a snapshot and not integrated over time to give energy. A
second catch is that the channels have a dynamic range of 256 levels because
of the 8 bit D/A flash converters used.

I think it may be possible to perform sampled wideband energy integration by
using parallel high speed DSP's, but I know of no instrument using this
approach.

The other approach is our old friend calorimetery. HP has just retired from
its product line a thermal true RMS meter. The input waveform heats a
thermally isolated junction, whose temperature is measured. Bandwidth and
crest factor are limited only by the input amplifier. As might be expected,
the instrument is cranky to calibrate.

All this does not invalidate Scott's use of a Clarke-Hess meter; it just has
to be used with understanding of its limitations. It can measure the 60 Hz
input to a power supply very well. It cannot measure the power directly into
the cell reliably.

Ed Wall and I have discussed all this at some length. There is some residual
question as to whether the performance of the Mizuno experiment is
influenced by the impedance of the power supply, as that can conceivably
have some influence on the behavior of the plasma. In an experimentally
stable environment, one could answer that question by comparing the
performance of a cell with different power supply characteristics. At
present, there are too many variables to answer this question
experimentally.

One can regard the cell as an electrical noise source and filter that noise
looking back toward the power supply. Practically, this means connecting a
substantial, low inductance capacitor directly across the cell and inserting
a filter choke in the lead going back to the power supply. The I & E
waveform at the power supply may then fall within the reliable measurement
range of a package instrument, but is has to be checked with an
oscilloscope. Ed suggested that if one measures the AC input to the supply
accurately as the cell operates, then the supply can be calibrated with a
resistive load which produces the same input power to the supply. This is a
practical suggestion which has a first-order validity if the OU performance
is in the reported range of 150+ percent.

Mike Carrell

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Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
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>You might try improving efficiency by placing a large capacitor (and
>possibly inductor) in SERIES with the cell.  This has the effect of
>increasing the phase angle, thus reducing the power factor, and putting a
>larger amount of AC current through the cell per watt of input.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner


I haven't been following the discussion closely, but the suggestions about
LC circuits and high voltage spikes increasing the efficiency of gas
evolution in an electrolysis cell remind me of the late Stanley Meyer who
was apparently doing something like this.

Mike Carrell

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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration
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At 08:17 AM 6/6/99 -0400, Mike Carrell wrote:

>Clarke-Hess advertises wideband precision power meters. The CATCH is that
>the process assumes that the waveform is cyclic and repetitive....

Our C-H Model 2330 does not make any such assumptions.  It continuously
multiplies (digitally) V * I together fast enough to accurately track 400
kHz signals. It makes no assumption about the nature of the waveform.  It
is perfectly happy with anything from DC to smooth AC to arbitrary
waveforms such as the plasma cells draw.

>All this does not invalidate Scott's use of a Clarke-Hess meter; it just has
>to be used with understanding of its limitations. It can measure the 60 Hz
>input to a power supply very well. It cannot measure the power directly into
>the cell reliably.

Come on, Mike! If that were true then it would be a spectacular string of
coincidences that, on each of the 10 or 15 times I have connected our CH
2330 directly to the line leading into one of these plasma discharge cells,
the reported electrical power agreed to within a few percent with the
calorimetrically measured heat from the cell.

The CH2330 does perform some averaging on the computed power signal.  It
has to or the reading would bounce all over the place.  But this averaging
is performed AFTER the V*I multiplication so it only serves to provide the
average power being delivered to the load...i.e. what we are interested in.

BTW, it is interesting to note that, with a constant voltage supply driving
a load that takes current in sharp spikes, the true power delivered to the
load is determined by the voltage multiplied by the AVERAGE current....not
the RMS current.  For example, consider a simple "spikey" current waveform
consisting of a 10% duty-cycle square wave.  The current is 10 amps for 1
second and then 0 amps for 9 seconds...then the cycle repeats.  Thus the
average current is 1 amp (10/10)....but the RMS current is 3.16 amps
(root(100/10))!  The voltage is, say, 10 volts.  During the current "spike"
the power is 100 watts and, since that is on for only 10% of the time, the
average power in this case is 10 watts.  That result can be obtained only
by multiplying the voltage by the average current.  If you multiply the
voltage by the RMS current, you get 31.6 watts.  

As far as I can see, this "effect" could only result in an overestimation
of the power being delivered to the cell.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  6 08:12:20 1999
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Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 17:12:52 +0200
From: Jean-Paul Biberian <biberian mccir3.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
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Subject: Re: Hydrino Theory ?
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Ross Tessien wrote:

> I was reading an interview with Mills, with the description of the "auto
> catalytic" process and hydrino formation.  I understand reasonably well
> what he says he is doing  / wants to do.
>
> Something is fishy.
>
> He says that the electron is falling down into lower and lower fractional
> valences (orbitals).  I have no problem with this assertion and it seems
> reasonable and logical.
>
> But, he also says that energy comes out when the electron falls into lower
> valences, which is where things go awry.  If I track the "mass" of the
> proton electron system, I can apply E=mc^2 to the combined mass and watch
> if the mass is getting larger or smaller, where it must get smaller if
> energy has come out, and larger if energy has gone in.
>
> Benchmark  0:   proton plus electron separately in space
> Benchmark 1:   atomic hydrogen, ground state
> Benchmark 2:   neutron
>
> At Benchmark 1, we begin with the base mass of the hydrogen atom as a
> starting point.  In order to go toward 0, we must put energy into the atom
> to ionize it and remove the electron.  In order to go toward 2, we must put
> energy into the proton electron system in order to collapse the electron
> down into the nucleus and to form a neutron.
>
> So, Mill's is claiming that by going toward 2 from 1, that you can get some
> more energy out.  But as you do that, you are becoming more and more like a
> neutron.  The problem is, as you become more like a neutron, which has a
> greater mass than hydrogen (state 1 above), Mill's claims to be getting
> more energy out.  At some point, any model must cross a saddle point where
> the energy starts going back up again and the mass starts increasing again.
>  It is logical to assume that the saddle point is in fact, the ground state
> of hydrogen.
>
> Hence, it seems that Mill's should in fact be able to create his hydrinos,
> and hence he should be capable of identifying those species in astro
> physical spectra.  But, those should **absorb** energy from their
> surroundings, not release it.  ie, in the Na Na H collision he speaks of in
> the gas phase device, it seems to me that the collision should crush the
> hydrogen atom down into that hydrino state, by ABSORBING energy, not by
> emitting it.
>
> Some how, you need to get from the atomic state, to the neutron state, and
> you ought to arrive there assymptotically as the electron orbitals become
> increasingly close to the nucleus.  I'm certain the math could be worked
> out for that if anyone cared.  But I would be interested in any comments on
> the fact that the mass energy is pointed in the wrong direction and how
> Mills explains that fact.
>
> rt

Actually there is a dicontinuity. You cannot go continuously from the hydrino
to the neutron. In fact to make a neutron out of a proton and an electron you
must add energy, as if you were doing something to the electron so that it will
stick to the proton. Otherwise we should have no atoms, only neutrons, since
due to the electrostatic attraction, the electron will stick to the proton.

What is this special kind of electron? Nobody knows, but the neutrino necessary
to do the actual "melting" of the electron and proton into a neutron might be
the answer. But what is a neutrino? I wish I knew!....

Jean-Paul Biberian


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  6 09:41:23 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 12:45:09 -0400
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Scott wrote:
>Come on, Mike! If that were true then it would be a spectacular string of
>coincidences that, on each of the 10 or 15 times I have connected our CH
>2330 directly to the line leading into one of these plasma discharge cells,
>the reported electrical power agreed to within a few percent with the
>calorimetrically measured heat from the cell.

Hi Scott,

        I know that the calorimetry on the recombiner is done by math using
just one known chemical reaction for the numbers instead of an actual heat
measurement, are you doing any calorimetry (actual heat measurement) on the
power supply while the cell is in operation?  This would tell you if any
additional heat caused by the alleged HF spikes is being captured and
radiated by the power supply outside of the actual heat measuring portion of
your calorimeter.  In other words, get the whole thing into a calorimeter.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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From: Ross Tessien <Tessien oro.net>
Subject: Re: Hydrino Theory ?
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>Actually there is a dicontinuity. You cannot go continuously from the hydrino
>to the neutron. 

Discontinuities are not good  ;-)

I much prefer saddles for the transition of a "tendency" in nature.
Discontinuities are more common when we really don't know what is going on,
rather than when we have found the correct interpretation.


>What is this special kind of electron? Nobody knows, but the neutrino
necessary
>to do the actual "melting" of the electron and proton into a neutron might be
>the answer. But what is a neutrino? I wish I knew!....

An electron, buzzing at 90 or 270 degrees phase angle relative to
spacetime, rather than the normal 180...............IMO           

(see work by Bjerknes and Thomson in the 1870's.  They showed that phase
like resonances repulse, phase opposition resonances attract, phase
orthogonal resonances behave neutrally.)

rt




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Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
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At 4:10 AM 6/6/99, Michael T Huffman wrote:

>What I had in mind, and this is still vague, was building an alternator
>right on to the shaft to supply the power, and turning the whole business
>with a belt drive and DC motor with a MOSFET speed controller.  Like I
>said...  Rube would have loved this one.

The desirable shaft RPM for brush operation, probably between 60 wand 600,
would be very slow for generating.


>Then I also had an idea for making
>homemade Kevlar out of long, dried, bamboo fiber dunked in 502 epoxy,
>squeegeed off, and wrapped around the body in random directions like paper
>machette, maybe 1/2" thick, just in case the thing got too energetic.  I
>could use strands of palm tree branches, maybe, I'll have to tear one apart
>and see how strong they are.  We've got enough of them down here.  The idea
>that it might be a cold process is also a real plus, too.  It wouldn't be
>real entertaining, of course, unless I had some bicycle parts thrown in, an
>old sewing machine treadle, a pulley, and maybe a bowling ball rolled down
>the roof, but I can work out those details.  The capacitor might be
>difficult and clumsey to get on the shaft with the alternator.  I don't want
>it to look stupid! 8^)

Don't forget the all important grease and bubble gum.

>
>I suppose a straight wire from the wall, fused, the capacitor, and some
>brushes might be the easiest, and if I made the shaft long enough, and put
>the brushes far enough away from the body, it would be OK.

Placing a capacitor and/or inductor in series with the current limits the
current, but a fuse never hurts.  Using GFCI around water is not a bad idea
either.


>I was also going
>to make the plates out of the tops and bottoms of coffee cans, if possible.
>Think that would be OK?  I've been saving them.


I don't think they would last very long in such a caustic environment.  I'm
afraid stainless steel plates are probably required for a long running
machine.  Platinum plated plates sometimes used in electrolysis are
probably not good for BG because high recombination would tend to result,
and that produces waste heat.  Gold plating might be interesting to check
out in an AC environment.

This is one area in which there may be a performance improvement to be had
by raising the frequency, at least cost-wise.  At a high enough frequency
the current can be carried strictly through a thin dielectric layer on the
plates.  Such a dielectric layer, possibly composed primarily of silicon,
can be impervious to the electrolysis, unlike the underlying metal plates.
A side benefit to this approach, if a sufficently high frequency is used,
is that no external capacitor is needed.  Again, there is a trade-off with
excess heat, so the concept is limited.  I would suggest adding sodium
metasilacate to the electrolyte.  If you use the coffe can lids, potassium
permagante might help too.

A good way to attach the plates to the shaft is to cut a key notch into the
shaft, and leave tabs on the plates that fit the key notch.  This permits a
snug fit for the round hole in the end of the wipers that fits over the
shaft.  It means a lot of work cutting out plates though.  One problem with
the wipers is they must be very thin, so strength and support is an issue.
The plates msut be kept close, so precision is key.  Also, the thicker the
plates the less significant the leakage current around the outside of the
plates, and the less precise fit needed there.


>What gauge wire would you
>think best?  Would just regular multistrand copper do?

Personal preference for various experimental stuff is solid copper ground
wire type THWN (75 C rated) or type THHN (90 C rated), which has very good
(green color for ground) insulation.  I buy it by the 500 foot spool
because it is fairly cheap that way.  I use 12 AWG for 20 amp applications,
10 AWG for 30 amp applications, if there are no other special requirements,
like flexibility.  That wire can take one heck of a lot more than that
short term before frying though!  It is also surprising all the
non-electrical uses it seems to have.   If you have the extra bucks you
should color code for safety, or at least use black or red, instead of
using green, but treating ALL wire with extreme respect is not a bad idea.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
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At 11:25 PM 6/5/99, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>On Sat, 5 Jun 1999 23:17:44 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>You might try improving efficiency by placing a large capacitor (and
>>possibly inductor) in SERIES with the cell.  This has the effect of
>>increasing the phase angle, thus reducing the power factor, and putting a
>>larger amount of AC current through the cell per watt of input.
[snip]
>Somehow this smells a little too much of "getting something for
>nothing". Wouldn't it also drop the voltage across the cells?


Raising efficiency *is* getting something for nothing, at least gas instead
of heat, but it doesn't necessarily mean violation of COE.

Provided the voltage is sufficient to cause electrolysis, voltage is
irrelevant to the volume of gas evolved, true?   This is one reason why
Avogadro's number is so handy, and why electro-plating is a means of
integrating current.

BG generators work on AC, so sloshing more current back and forth through
the cell with the same energy should raise the electrolysis efficiency,
which is very low at the outset.  It does not matter that the RMS watts are
reduced, it only matters that the current per watt increases, true?

At 7:17 AM 6/6/99, Mike Carrell wrote:

>I haven't been following the discussion closely, but the suggestions about
>LC circuits and high voltage spikes


There has been no discussion on vortex lately regarding high voltage spikes
in regards to Brown's gas, to my knowledge.


>increasing the efficiency of gas
>evolution in an electrolysis cell remind me of the late Stanley Meyer who
>was apparently doing something like this.


Meyer was using high frequency which, AFAIK, would only tend to produce
waste heat.  If inductive couplings or transformers are used some benefit
might be obtained using a freq. up to 600 Hz, but the cost of conversion
from 60 Hz to some other frequency would be prohibitive.  Unrelated
directly to BG, the economics of ordinary electrolysis is centered
primarily on the capital outlay, or cost/cm^2 plate area.  Industrial
efficiency improvements are thus largely focused on increasing current per
cm^2 (by using high pressure and temperature), and reducing cost/cm^2.
This is one reason why series cells are industrially used, the "power
supplies" are much cheaper using power directly from the grid and using HV
rectification.

At 12:48 AM 6/6/99, mrand access wrote:
>George Wiseman's latest Browns Gas discovery at:
>http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/watergas.html

Thanks for the reference.  I did not know this patent free (public
domain??) effort was going on.  Interesting page, especially the picture of
the plexaglas tube series electrolysis device so typically seen in BG
experiments.  I did not realize the plastic tube was George Wiseman's
concept, assuming it is.  It has been around a long time.  I assume it is
so common because of Weisman's books.

The analysis posted seems pretty amateurish, but as an amateur myself I say
there is intrinsically nothing wrong with that!  It appears that in
attempting to determine the makeup of Brown's gas they have overlooked the
need to dry the evolving gas, which will have a high water content.  There
is also the problem of spontaneous recombination, which continues to
produce water, hopefully slowly.  Pretty gutsy to deal with large volumes
of the stuff, since it is explosive.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  6 10:53:28 1999
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration/123 spreadsheet use
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In a message dated 06/05/1999 12:17:19 Pacific Daylight Time, little eden.com 
writes:

   <snip calcs>

> The only hitch in all this is that something is slightly amiss with your
>  Vout-Aout numbers.  When I divide Vout by Aout for each load resistance, I
>  should get pretty close to the advertised resistance.  However, in each
>  case, the result starts out rather higher and works its way down closer to
>  the nominal value as you raised the voltage.  I doubt if this effect is the
>  temp coeff of the resistors...it's too big (I think).  Rather I suspect
>  errors in your current measurement...the smallest value involved.  Here are
>  the ranges I get...you can check them for yourself:

Will do

>  
>  nominal value          range of Vout/Aout
>  64 kohm                 77k - 65k
>  86 kohm                109k - 94k 
>  101 kohm               117k - 110k
>  148 kohm               188k - 163k
>  
>  Did the load R's get blazing hot during these tests?

They did. Charred a piece of paper put there to let me know I'm at the limit. 

>  Are your R values measured with a meter?

Oops...No, didn't check them....sloppy work on my part.  


>  
>  Scott Little 
>  EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
>  512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
>  little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little
>  

Thank much for the calcs Scott.

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  6 10:53:39 1999
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration/123 spreadsheet use
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In a message dated 06/05/1999 15:56:18 Pacific Daylight Time, 
aki ix.netcom.com writes:

> June 5, 1999
>  
>  Scott, nice of you to do Vince's work.

 Akira, this is supposed to be a joint experiment for all interested
Vortexians not just me plugging blindly away in my garage.
 I do have some skills to do this but not enough to cover 
all the bases. That is why I post the raw data from my observations, so
others on this group can contribute their skills to make this data
understandable to all.  I could never do it all myself.  That is why I 
so appreciate all who contribute to this group.
 
>  He should try it out himself to get mastery of his 123 and work out 
> shortcuts with that mastery..
>  I'm sure he will find familiarity with the program useful in the future..

 Yes, I am slowly learning the skills needed to master things like the 
spreadsheet programs but since this is a large lab (group) I think it is much
better to let the person(s) with the expertise in the areas I don't have
contribute their skills to the experiment.
 I'm a nuts and bolt type and just getting the mechanics of this right is
a real tough job, like now after getting the high voltage leads a shielded
and shortened to a nice four inch length, have to find a way to sense current
accurately in those leads without adding a lot  of length to the HV wiring.
 Trying at the same time to sit down a learn the spreadsheet protocol
is a heavy load on me.
 So the time Scott and others take out of _their_ busy schedule is 
very much appreciated. I am not trying to duck responsibilities here Akira, 
and
I _am_ plugging away with Lotus every evening. I have charted almost all of
the runs I have made (my Lotus  work directory has a megabyte in it) so
I am slowly learning how to do it.
 
 I could not do this without everyone's help. 

>  
>  -ak-

Best Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas

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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 13:51:42 EDT
Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration
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All,

Here is the raw data from Saturdays run with a 297 (11 x 27 Kohm
resistors in series) Kohm load. Actual measured resistance
is 301.3 Kohms.  BTW, these resistors are rated 10 watts, so yeah,
after passing 2 kV output, these things _are_ somewatt stressed!

I began measurements at 1500 volts and went to 4000 volts 
in 100 volt (+/- 15.0 volt) steps. Setting the high output voltage
with a variac to the HV transformer is not precise hence the 
30 volt uncertainty. The turns ratio of the HV transformer greatly
magnifies any line voltage input variations, making reading of
the DMM's difficult. I should use a UPS power supply between the 
wall socket and the experiment but that's out of my means at the
present time.

Vin=primary voltage
Ain=primary amperes
Win=Watt-hour meter reading
Vout=secondary voltage
Aout=secondary amperes
Wout=Vout x Aout

    Actual 301.3 Kohm Load
  Vin-------Ain-------Win-------Vout-----Aout-------Wout
  38.0-----0.46------7.71-----1500-----0.0038----05.70
  40.5-----0.50------9.05-----1600-----0.0041----06.56
  43.0-----0.52----10.12-----1700-----0.0044----07.48
  45.5-----0.55----11.77-----1800-----0.0048----08.64
  47.9-----0.58----13.43-----1900-----0.0051----09.69
  50.4-----0.61----15.16-----2000-----0.0053----10.60
  53.0-----0.64----16.69-----2100-----0.0056----11.76
  55.5-----0.67----18.76-----2200-----0.0062----13.64
  58.0-----0.70----20.57-----2300-----0.0064----14.72
  60.4-----0.74----22.38-----2400-----0.0068----16.32
  62.8-----0.76----24.48-----2500-----0.0070----17.50
  65.5-----0.80----26.54-----2600-----0.0072----18.72
  68.1-----0.83----29.31-----2700-----0.0075----20.25
  70.7-----0.86----31.32-----2800-----0.0079----22.12
  73.1-----0.89----33.76-----2900-----0.0082----23.78
  75.6-----0.92----36.35-----3000-----0.0085----25.50
  77.9-----0.96----38.95-----3100-----0.0089----27.59
  80.1-----0.99----40.54-----3200-----0.0091----29.12
  82.6-----1.02----43.76-----3300-----0.0095----31.35
  85.6-----1.06----46.50-----3400-----0.0099----33.66
  87.7-----1.08----49.20-----3500-----0.0103----36.05
  90.3-----1.12----53.12-----3600-----0.0106----38.16
  92.8-----1.15----55.91-----3700-----0.0110----40.70
  94.8-----1.18----58.61-----3800-----0.0114----43.32
  97.6-----1.22----62.24-----3900-----0.0116----45.24
103.1-----1.30----70.72-----4000-----0.0123----49.20

I am going to conduct another run with a ~500 Kohm load
and hope the voltage divider survives up at ~7 kV, and, yeah,
I just might try to find a few 50 watt resistors to
series together for a load.   <g>

Thanks for everyone help in getting this all sorted out.
We have a great lab crew here in Vortex-L!

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas
702-254-2122  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  6 13:23:49 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 16:19:00 -0400
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Hi Horace,

There is another configuration photo over at Gary Hawkin's website, which I
think is http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/  I'm not sure if that's right, but
it's listed as Horizon Technology in the Brown's Gas section of the
Cavitation College.

As for the brushes, the reason I was thinking of building the alternator
directly to the shaft was to eliminate the brushes.  Since the plates would
be turning along with the alternator, there would be no need for brushes.  I
was thinking of using pairs of Tesla's Bitter Solenoids as inductors on the
outer rim of a  disk at the top of the shaft, and having two stationary
permanent magnets on either side.  Have you seen these solenoids?  If you
don't follow, I can make some quick drawings.  Once I establish how much
power can be produced at a given rotation speed with one pair, I can add
more inductor pairs to increase the frequency, until the optimum gas
evolution rate is achieved.  Evidently, according to their recent
observations, the water molecules between the plates are being rotated back
and forth until they gain enough energy to boil.  For this to happen, it may
be necessary to have stationary plates to keep the amount of turbulence
down, if the the rotation of the molecules is happening at only 120 times
per second, however if the frequency was increased, it may be possible to do
it with rotating plates and more turbulence would be allowed.  I'll just
have to play with it and see.

The getting the best overall efficiency is not my main objective right now,
nor are the problems of reducing plate erosion.  The main objective for me
is to experiment with some of the first principle ideas, and to have a
torch/welder for some other projects that I have in mind.  I have a lot of
raw materials here in the form of junk, and I don't want to spend any money.

And yes, it is pretty gutsy of them to be doing what they are doing.  I plan
on using a bit more caution.  I don't know if you've heard of Todd Knudson,
but he has built a large number of useful devices and processes based on the
BG generator idea.  He says that it is compressable, and can be run into a
fuel cell.  He told me so many things during our conversation, that my head
overloaded.  We talked for about three hours, I think.  He spent a great
deal of time on the FreeNRG group trying to explain everything, but his
writing style is the worst I've ever seen.  When you talk to him, however,
for even just a few minutes, you realize that he is for real, he actually
has made all this stuff, and even if his theories aren't perfect, his
observations are first hand, and very insightful.  His ability to express
himself verbally is quite good, he just can't write worth a hoot, and it
limits his credibility to a great degree.  This business about gas matrices,
and electrically charged steam is interesting, and I want to look at it for
myself.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  6 13:43:02 1999
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Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 15:45:51 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration
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At 12:45 PM 6/6/99 -0400, Michael T Huffman wrote:

>I know that the calorimetry on the recombiner is done by math using
>just one known chemical reaction for the numbers instead of an actual heat
>measurement...

Actually, Knuke, I'm generally ignoring the caloric value of the exiting
gas stream in this experiment.  Since the cell runs at about 140 volts and
draws only about 0.8 amps, that caloric value is only about 1% of the total
input power (1.48 * 0.8)...i.e. it's negligible.  BTW, this is usually not
the case for electrolysis experiments.  It's the very high cell voltage
that makes it so for this experiment.

>are you doing any calorimetry (actual heat measurement) on the
>power supply while the cell is in operation?  This would tell you if any
>additional heat caused by the alleged HF spikes is being captured and
>radiated by the power supply....

Calorimetry on the power supply is certainly possible but it is not
necessary in this case.  The CH-2330 power analyzer is located BETWEEN the
power supply and the cell.  If energy is sloshing back into the power
supply periodically, it will be properly subtracted from the running
average by the CH-2330.  That is what it is designed to do. Only the net
power delivered to the cell is reported.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  6 15:04:57 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
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At 4:19 PM 6/6/99, Michael T Huffman wrote:
[snip]
>The getting the best overall efficiency is not my main objective right now,
>nor are the problems of reducing plate erosion.  The main objective for me
>is to experiment with some of the first principle ideas, and to have a
>torch/welder for some other projects that I have in mind.


Oh, OK, here is some food for thought on that angle:

If the bottom of the electrolyte container is made of metal then no
insulated conductor is needed inside the electrolyte or shaft.

You might want to consider having a vertical stack, with stationary
horizontal metal plates.  The gas can then be pushed to the sides by the
wiper plades, exit around the sides of the plates and float vertically.
Each wiper assembly would need to be made of thin plastic.  I would make
the blade assembly on each level with 3 lobes.  The metal plates can then
rest moderately losely on the blades.  The holes in the plates for the axle
should be a bit oversized, with spaces between the blades but within the
radius of the holes to allow electrolyte flow from the shaft area to
between the plates.  The blade assembly then pumps electrolyte from the
shaft area outwards toward the edges by centrifugal force.  Unfortunately
the holes to the shaft area would have conflicting demands on size, too big
and there would be lost current, two small and not enough electrolyte flow.

I would use 2 volts per gap at minimum, probably more.  You probably want
the most gas period, not the most gas per amount of energy expended.

If you have a good sized step down transformer handy it might save you lots
of work and expense, by reducing the number of plates you need just to get
something working.

If you can get access to them, I assume George Wiseman's books would
probably be  very helpful, but I expect most everything in them is
available from the folks on freenrg, or maybe here too.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Woa!!! Stop THE car !!!Re: H2K: Calibration
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	Dear Vo., Scott and all,

	Questions and comments... as usual, please let me know if I got
something wrong:

	1]  the subject line has H2K in it.   

	2]  H2K is a descriptor for an experiment with an aqueous
electrolytic cell

	3]  In operation the cell yields, among other things... Oxygen and
Hydrogen.
		Q:  Is this true, the cell yields O and H ?

		Q:  Do we know how much O and H ... even as an estimate?

		Q:  If we were to collect the H and O ... would we be able
to burn it?  Or maybe run a fuel cell from it?

		Q:  How much "beez-go" would we get from the H and O ? 


	Q:	Q:  What do you mean by caloric value?  Do you mean how
warm the gas stream is?



On Sun, 6 Jun 1999, Scott Little wrote:

> At 12:45 PM 6/6/99 -0400, Michael T Huffman wrote:
> 
> >I know that the calorimetry on the recombiner is done by math using
> >just one known chemical reaction for the numbers instead of an actual heat
> >measurement...
> 
> Actually, Knuke, I'm generally ignoring the caloric value of the exiting
> gas stream in this experiment.  Since the cell runs at about 140 volts and
> draws only about 0.8 amps, that caloric value is only about 1% of the total
> input power (1.48 * 0.8)...i.e. it's negligible.  BTW, this is usually not
> the case for electrolysis experiments.  It's the very high cell voltage
> that makes it so for this experiment.
> 
> >are you doing any calorimetry (actual heat measurement) on the
> >power supply while the cell is in operation?  This would tell you if any
> >additional heat caused by the alleged HF spikes is being captured and
> >radiated by the power supply....
> 
> Calorimetry on the power supply is certainly possible but it is not
> necessary in this case.  The CH-2330 power analyzer is located BETWEEN the
> power supply and the cell.  If energy is sloshing back into the power
> supply periodically, it will be properly subtracted from the running
> average by the CH-2330.  That is what it is designed to do. Only the net
> power delivered to the cell is reported.
> 
> 
> Scott Little 
> EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
> 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
> little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  6 16:58:46 1999
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Horace wrote:
>Oh, OK, here is some food for thought on that angle:
>
Hi Horace,

These are all good ideas, and I'll probably end up making a half a dozen of
these things when it's all said and done.  I'm thinking about a verticle
stack, with an oversized container, but whether I make the stack stationary
or attach it to the shaft is undecided.  I'm thinking about a PVC shaft
even, with maybe some holes in the bottom so I can replentish the water from
above.

  I did some more thinking on the alternater idea, and have come up with
some more ideas for that as well.  One being to use electromagnets instead
of the permanent magnets.  This would allow some ability to control how much
power goes into the thing.  Obviously, it will need to be tweaked slightly
to look for the magic spots in the voltage range.  Permanent magnets just
won't do until I know what gauss strength is necessary for a given number of
plates.  I've got some good sized step down transformers available, as well
as caps, and I can look for others if they aren't suitable.

For now, I'll concentrate on the construction of the bitter solenoids, and
see how they perform as inductors.  I may just put one big one on the top of
the shaft vertically, and drive it with another one, maybe with an iron
core.  I could easily detach it or move it in and out of the one on the
shaft to make adjustments.

These are all just ideas.  Having fixed plates might make it easier to work
with, and if I made sockets for them to be plugged into, I could replace
them easier as they are eaten away.

I also would like to be able to drain the electrolyte after I'm through
using it, and to store it in a glass container or something, to keep the
corrosion down.  I'd like to play around with different electrolytes as
well.  Maybe something less caustic, like salt water.  There are all kinds
of possibilities there. 

All of this stuff will require some trial and error since it's never been
done before, and that's what I enjoy doing.  I'll sleep on it for a few, and
if you have anymore ideas, keep'em comin'!  Thanks,

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  6 18:20:43 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 01:18:56 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Sun, 6 Jun 1999 09:36:53 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
[snip]
>>Somehow this smells a little too much of "getting something for
>>nothing". Wouldn't it also drop the voltage across the cells?
>
>
>Raising efficiency *is* getting something for nothing, at least gas instead
>of heat, but it doesn't necessarily mean violation of COE.
>
>Provided the voltage is sufficient to cause electrolysis, voltage is
>irrelevant to the volume of gas evolved, true?   This is one reason why
>Avogadro's number is so handy, and why electro-plating is a means of
>integrating current.
So if I understand you correctly, you are assuming that the builder
doesn't calculate the number of cells correctly, and ends up with an
inefficient device. Then putting in a capacitor can act as a form of
fine tuning, allowing him/her to get the best possible out of it?
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: PLEC calorimetry
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 23:26:52 -0400
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>Actually, Knuke, I'm generally ignoring the caloric value of the exiting
>gas stream in this experiment.  Since the cell runs at about 140 volts and
>draws only about 0.8 amps, that caloric value is only about 1% of the total
>input power (1.48 * 0.8)...i.e. it's negligible.  BTW, this is usually not
>the case for electrolysis experiments.  It's the very high cell voltage
>that makes it so for this experiment.

I don't buy it.  You are telling me that you are going to ignore the heat
carried out of the cell in a gas of unknown composition, simply because the
input numbers are low.  It's not logical.  The beads in the recombiner are
getting dirty with something that is not H2O.  That something is obviously a
thermal transport material.  You just don't know how much heat is coming out
of the cell, until you measure it.  I won't belabor the point any further.


>Calorimetry on the power supply is certainly possible but it is not
>necessary in this case.  The CH-2330 power analyzer is located BETWEEN the
>power supply and the cell.  If energy is sloshing back into the power
>supply periodically, it will be properly subtracted from the running
>average by the CH-2330.  That is what it is designed to do. Only the net
>power delivered to the cell is reported.

I know that the manual says that it is supposed to do this, but the question
remains.  Can it really do this?  Calorimetry would be one way to find out.
If you put everything into a calorimeter, the cell, the recombiner, and the
power supply, and measured the power at the wall, and there was no excess
heat, then we would know.  Your power analyzer should be at the wall anyway,
just to see what is happening on the ground line.  I won't belabor this
point any further, either.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  6 20:33:25 1999
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Hi John,

Sorry about the mixup, but these things happen when multi threaded
discussions have overlapping issues.   Scott is doing an electrolysis
experiment based on the Mizuno cell, and Vince is doing a low pressure
Hydrogen gas arc experiment that is loosely modeled after the Mills hydrino
cell.  Me and Horace are dreaming up a new Brown's Gas device that looks
like an organ grinder.  Hope we didn't drive you around the bend!  8^)

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  6 20:40:59 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 23:44:26 -0400
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Robin wrote:
>So if I understand you correctly, you are assuming that the builder
>doesn't calculate the number of cells correctly, and ends up with an
>inefficient device. Then putting in a capacitor can act as a form of
>fine tuning, allowing him/her to get the best possible out of it?
>[snip]
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

Hi Robin,

It's almost guaranteed that the builder will build an inefficient device, at
this point.  I'm shooting for the absolute lowest voltage necessary to cause
electrolysis, mainly because somewhere in the 1.5V - 2.5V range there is the
possiblity of causing electrolysis without creating heat, or at least that
is what I've been told.  I'm just trying to figure out the best way to make
the thing so that it can be adjustable within that range.  I would like to
do it without a capacitor if possible, too.  I'll figure it out.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  7 06:24:24 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Clarke-Hess 2330
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Here is some stuff I extracted from the Clarke-Hess lit on the 2330 that
provides some insight into how it achieves its wonderful performance.  Note
that it DOES employ a DSP to perform the high-speed multiplications.

"The basic operation of the Sampling V-A-W Meter is based on the concept
that when a signal proportional to current and a signal proportional to
voltage are periodically sampled simultaneously and the samples are
multiplied together and placed through a (digital) low-pass filter, a
signal proportional to average power is obtained."

"The DSP receives the serial digital sample data from both the current and
voltage box and converts them into a digital current sample and a digital
voltage sample.  It multiplies the current sample by the voltage sample,
squares the current sample, squares the voltage sample and filters each of
these combined signals in a digital, three stage, low pass filter.  The
filters provide at their respective outputs the average power, the mean of
the squared current and the mean of the squared voltage.  Each of these
filters is an infinite impulse response (IIR) filter with three identical
stages each having a bandwidth of approximately 0.4 Hz.  The filter
outputs, along with the current and voltage samples are transferred to the
Microprocessor following each sampling pulse via an Input/Output interface.
 The Microprocessor extracts the square root of the mean of the squared
current and the square root of the mean of the squared voltage to obtain
the rms current and the rms voltage."

It should be noted that these rms calculations are solely for the purpose
of displaying those values because some folks are interested in them.  The
average power is computed directly from the initial V and I samples.

"The voltage and current inputs of the Model 2330 are simultaneously
sampled (with 16 bit resolution), converted to digital form, and
transmitted via optical links to the main chassis.  This allows both the
current and voltage inputs to be completely isolated from each other and
from the main chassis.  The asynchronous sampling frequency is controlled
by the system microprocessor in such a fashion that neither it nor any of
its harmonics can come close to the measured input frequency or any of its
harmonics.  This precaution prevents 'beats' with their accompanying jitter
in the displayed values."

And here is some probably justifiable bragging they put into the
advertisement:

"UNPARALLED HIGH-FREQUENCY ACCURACY

The Model 2330 allows broadband and high accuracy measurements of both
sinusoidal and highly distorted wave-shapes.  The current, voltage, power,
and power-factor accuracies [from DC] to 400 KHz of the Model 2330 far
exceed any other sampling V-A-W..."



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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At 23:26 6/6/99 -0400, Michael T Huffman wrote:

>I don't buy it.  You are telling me that you are going to ignore the heat
>carried out of the cell in a gas of unknown composition....

It's not really unknown.  During "normal" electrolysis, the gas flow rate
matches precisely the expected flow rate from ordinary electrolysis and the
external recombiner can recombine the gas stream "perfectly".  By
"perfect", I mean that there is nothing left over...the gas stream enters
the recombiner and, even though we have an exit tube whose outlet is placed
underwater where any "extra" gas could bubble out, nothing comes out of the
exit tube.  During the plasma electrolysis, the gas flow increases by an
amount that matches what you would expect to be evolved if the observed
consumption rate of the W cathode was due to oxidation of the W using O
obtained from H2O.  Further the excess gas, when separated from the exiting
gases by collecting it on the other side of the recombiner in the bubbler
mentioned above, burns like hydrogen gas.

>The beads in the recombiner are
>getting dirty with something that is not H2O.

The beads in the external recombiner don't get dirty  (sometimes they get
wet and then they quit working altogether).  In other experiments, where
the beads are placed inside the cell, they often become contaminated with
the electolyte salt because the bubbles bursting at the surface of the
electrolyte throw a fine mist of electrolyte into the head space in the
cell.  When this mist contacts the hot recombiner beads, the H2O evaps
leaving a salt deposit on the bead.

>You just don't know how much heat is coming out
>of the cell, until you measure it.

True, but I can see no reason to suspect that it is other than the expected
amount.  To my knowledge, Mizuno also ignores the exiting gas stream.  I am
still trying to replicate his experiment.

>Your power analyzer should be at the wall anyway,
>just to see what is happening on the ground line.

I'll put another power analyzer (one that can only handle 60 Hz stuff)
there on the next run so we can at least see how efficient the EMI 150-10 is.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  7 07:53:49 1999
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Scott replies to my post:


>At 08:17 AM 6/6/99 -0400, Mike Carrell wrote:
>
>>Clarke-Hess advertises wideband precision power meters. The CATCH is that
>>the process assumes that the waveform is cyclic and repetitive....

I was discussing with Ed Wall the problem of accurately measuring the energy
input to his plasma hydrolysis cell, the same problem you have. I called
Clarke-Hess to get a briefing on the internal measurement process and talked
to the president. It is he who told me that they use a repetitive sampling
process and that they assume that the input waveform is cyclic and
repetitive. I outlined the nature of the measurement we are both attempting
and he agreed that their instrument may not be totally suitable for that
purpose. In discussing the problem with a HP representative, I was told that
HP makes an instrument for measuring wideband noise which uses a sampling
technique.

There is nothing inherently wrong with sampling, even sampling of noise.
Part of the discussion on vortex had concerned speculations that if the
noise generated by the plasma arc were extremely noisy, with high amplitude
spikes, then any sampling process might miss these and so give misleading
results. You have to use an oscilloscope to settle such arguments, and Ed
tells me that the oscilloscope signal looks like grass to the bandwidth
limit of his scope. Actually, if it is smooth grass like a putting green,
sampling will do pretty well. I haven't seen the signal myself.

>Our C-H Model 2330 does not make any such assumptions.  It continuously
>multiplies (digitally) V * I together fast enough to accurately track 400
>kHz signals. It makes no assumption about the nature of the waveform.  It
>is perfectly happy with anything from DC to smooth AC to arbitrary
>waveforms such as the plasma cells draw.

Let us consider what it takes to do this. Quoting from the C-H web page,
--------------
The Model 2330 is a precision, high accuracy, auto-ranging instrument which
simultaneously measures and displays true rms VOLTAGE, true rms CURRENT and
true mean square POWER over a frequency range from dc to more than
600kHz....
Full scale CURRENT and VOLTAGE inputs may have crest factors up to three
while smaller inputs may have even higher crest factors. Sinusoidal inputs
with rms values of twice the nominal Full Scale value may be measured with
no loss in accuracy......The VOLTAGE and CURRENT inputs of the Model 2330
are simultaneously sampled
(with 16 bit resolution), converted to digital form, and transmitted via
optical links to the main chassis. This allows both the CURRENT and VOLTAGE
inputs to be completely isolated from each other and from the main chassis.
The asynchronous sampling frequency is controlled by the system
microprocessor in such a fashion that neither it nor any of its harmonics
can come close to the measured input frequency or any of its harmonics. This
precaution prevents "beats" with their accompanying jitter in the displayed
values.
--------------
Note the phrases "crest factors up to three", "asynchronous sampling
frequency" and "measured input frequency". These imply that the instrument
measures the input frequency (of a cyclic waveform) and selects an
appropriate sampling frequency. All the proposed applications are for
devices hooked to an AC power supply;  some of these can generate wideband
pulses of interest. The wording implies that the instrument can measure the
true RMS value and power factor of a 400 KHz waveform, not just a waveform
with harmonic content to 400 KHz. To do this requires sampling the waveform
frequently enough to determine its shape and the phase relationships between
the current and voltage. The crest factor of three suggests that the
sampling should be fast enough to determine the energy at the third harmonic
(at least) of the input frequency, or 1.2 MHz. From the sampling theorem,
this would require at least 2.4 megasamples/sec. This is optimistic, for the
CH data sheet implies very high accuracy at the 400 KHz bandwidth, so the
effective sampling rate must be even higher.

Conversion of analog to digital with 16 bit resolution requires a
successive-approximation technique. The direct conversion method, the
so-called "flash" converter, requires a stack  comparators simultaneously
looking at the input voltage, each with a different reference potential. The
best you can get commercially is 8 bits resolution, requiring 256
comparators, which is
fine for video work in the hundreds of megahertz. To get 16 bit resolution
with this method would require some 65,000 comparators, which is not
feasible. So some variation on a successive approximation method is used.

Referring to the Analog Devices web page, an AD9260 AD converter using the
sigma-delta conversion process produces 2.5 megasamples/second, or 0.4
us/sample.

Following the reasoning above, a direct in-line measurement of RMS power
would require extreme circuit measures, such as the parallel DSPs I
mentioned in my previous post. Even though the multiply function can be
accomplished at very high speed with specialized architecture found in DSPs
and Intel's MMX technology, the extraction of a square root is (to my
knowledge) a successive-approximation process of trial divisions, and much
slower.

All these points confirm what the president of Clarke-Hess told me, that the
instruments assume that the input waveform is repetitive and they use a
sampling method, with DC as a special case of very low frequency.

>>All this does not invalidate Scott's use of a Clarke-Hess meter; it just
has
>>to be used with understanding of its limitations. It can measure the 60 Hz
>>input to a power supply very well. It cannot measure the power directly
into
>>the cell reliably.
>
>Come on, Mike! If that were true then it would be a spectacular string of
>coincidences that, on each of the 10 or 15 times I have connected our CH
>2330 directly to the line leading into one of these plasma discharge cells,
>the reported electrical power agreed to within a few percent with the
>calorimetrically measured heat from the cell.


That's fine, Scott, and I overstated "can't". It doesn't make your
observations or my analysis wrong. It simply indicates that the electrical
noise generated within the cell is such that the CH limitations do not
affect experimental results in this case. Lacking such direct observation, I
was working from a set of theoretical worries about what might go wrong in
these kinds of measurements. One is tempted to grab some industry standard
device and regard its readings as an oracle when it may be very
inappropriate. (I have been in correspondence with an inventor with a PhD in
a non-electrical field who uses a hand-held meter to measure the inductance
of a device; the meter could not possibly be giving him correct readings,
but he blithely accepts them as valid). My caution was a predictive one,
that there should be other observations to confirm that the instrument is
giving reliable readings for the purpose at hand. You have done this.

>The CH2330 does perform some averaging on the computed power signal.  It
>has to or the reading would bounce all over the place.  But this averaging
>is performed AFTER the V*I multiplication so it only serves to provide the
>average power being delivered to the load...I.e. what we are interested in.
>
>BTW, it is interesting to note that, with a constant voltage supply driving
>a load that takes current in sharp spikes, the true power delivered to the
>load is determined by the voltage multiplied by the AVERAGE current....not
>the RMS current.  For example, consider a simple "spikey" current waveform
>consisting of a 10% duty-cycle square wave.  The current is 10 amps for 1
>second and then 0 amps for 9 seconds...then the cycle repeats.  Thus the
>average current is 1 amp (10/10)....but the RMS current is 3.16 amps
>(root(100/10))!  The voltage is, say, 10 volts.  During the current "spike"
>the power is 100 watts and, since that is on for only 10% of the time, the
>average power in this case is 10 watts.  That result can be obtained only
>by multiplying the voltage by the average current.  If you multiply the
>voltage by the RMS current, you get 31.6 watts.
>
>As far as I can see, this "effect" could only result in an overestimation
>of the power being delivered to the cell.
>
Regards, Mike Carrell

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Meet George Jetson's car: The world's first flying car to lift off vertically will make its maiden flight later this month. 

<p><a href="http://www.moller.com/">Moller International</a>, a US aviation company based in Davis, California, is planning the first test of its Skycar in the company's backyard.

<p>Like the British Harrier jump jet, the four-seat Skycar will take off and land vertically. 

<P>
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     <HR NOSHADE>See also:
     <a
href="http://redirect.wired.com/redir/10025/http://www.wired.com/news/news/t
echnology/story/20010.html">GM Watches You Drive</a>
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<p>Powered by eight rotary engines, the flying car is designed to travel about 900 miles at more than 350 mph on a single tank of gas. 

<p>About the size of a full-sized SUV, the Skycar can be fueled with ordinary gasoline -- the lower the octane the better, said Jack Allison, Moller's vice president of administration.

<p>"It'll run on diesel, propane, even filtered McDonalds' french-fry oil," he said. "Anything that burns."

<p>You can drive it, too. Allison said the Skycar will be legal on the street and capable of cruising roadways at up to 30 mph using its electric engine.

<p>During the unmanned test flight, Moller is hoping to hover the car about five feet above the ground for a minute or longer. 

<p>Depending on its success, more ambitious tests with professional test pilots will follow in two to three years.

<p>The car-plane may be on the market shortly afterwards, Allison said, depending on the <a href="http://www.faa.gov/">Federal Aviation Authority</a> (FAA), which must certify the vehicle. Since the vehicle is the first of its kind, it may take the FAA lo

nger than usual to give its stamp of approval, Allison said.

<p>The company has already flown an Aerobot test vehicle, which uses a similar engine, to heights of more than 40 feet about 200 times.

<p>Like a magic carpet, the Aerobot moves straight up and is capable of sitting stationary in the air, Allison said.

<p>During tests, however, it had to be tethered to a crane since it isn't licensed by the FAA. Likewise, the Skycar will be tied to a crane during its test flight. 

<p>Currently, would-be pilots will need a pilot's license to fly the Skycar. But under the Highway in the Sky initiative launched by <a href="http://www.nasa.gov/">NASA</a> in February, the Skycar and similar vehicles may eventually be flown completely un

der computer control. 

<p>Using a global positioning system for guidance, it's hoped that the Highway in the Sky system will allow unlicensed pilots to be flown anywhere by completely automated flying machines.


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  7 09:58:06 1999
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Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 12:55:46 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC calorimetry
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Scott Little writes:

	True, but I can see no reason to suspect that it is other than
	the expected amount.  To my knowledge, Mizuno also ignores the
	exiting gas stream.  I am still trying to replicate his
	experiment.

That is incorrect. Mizuno condenses the water vapor and weighs it to the
nearest milligram. See Figure 1, Experimental Arrangement. Liquid lost from
the cell which is condensed is assumed to be lost as H2 and O2 gas. Results
vary considerably, however, most of the energy is removed by the cooling
water flow. Here is sample data with flow calorimetry:

Tungsten plate electrode, 0.2 m K2CO3, flow calorimetry. April 30, 1999,
4830 seconds:
 
Input Watts =112.72(average) V * 1.82(average) A = 205.1 Watts
Input Joules = 990.66 kJ
 
Output joules = 1,315 kJ
 
Hwater+Hcell = 30.7 kJ, 2%
Hrelease = 1272 kJ, 97%
Hvapor = <1 kJ, 0%
Hgas = 13 kJ, 1%

Hwater, Hcell are the heat increase electrolyte and cell, based on the
measured heat capacities of the materials. (Hcell is negligible.)

Hrelease is the heat recovered by the cooling flow.


Here is a sample with the flow disabled, using only isoperibolic
calorimetry, which forces the cell temperature up.

Tungsten plate electrode, 0.2 m K2CO3, isoperibolic calorimetry method. May
30, 1999, 1000 seconds:

Input Watt =80 V*1.303A(average)=104 Watts
Input Joules=104 kJ
Output Joules=132kJ

Hw+Hc=37 kJ, 28%
Hr=75 kJ, 57%
Hv=18 kJ, 14%
Hg=2 kJ, 2%



	Mizuno's own active runs are quite short (I don't have the exact
	figure that Jed quoted but I think it's ~ 20 minutes).

Runs are usually 1000 seconds (16.66 minutes). This makes the arithmetic
easy: a 30 watt reaction produces 30 kilojoules.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  7 10:07:23 1999
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Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 13:04:04 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC calorimetry
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I wrote:

>See Figure 1, Experimental Arrangement. Liquid lost from
>the cell which is condensed is assumed to be lost as H2 and O2 gas.

Meant to say: Liquid . . . which is NOT condensed is assumed to be lost . . .

Figure 1 was faxed to Scott Little.


Please note these examples are not part of the paper and I have not
discussed them earlier because they arrived in my e-mail last Friday. This
is late-breaking information.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  7 10:11:23 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: PLEC calorimetry
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 13:12:49 -0400
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Scott wrote:
>It's not really unknown.  During "normal" electrolysis, the gas flow rate
>matches precisely the expected flow rate from ordinary electrolysis and the
>external recombiner can recombine the gas stream "perfectly".
[snip]
>
>The beads in the external recombiner don't get dirty  (sometimes they get
>wet and then they quit working altogether).
[snip]

Hi Scott,

>From what I gather, you now have a gas exit tube, a manometer, a copper mesh
screen flashback arrestor, a recombiner catalyst container and a tube from
that leading into a bowl of water to see if there is any left over gas after
it makes it through this obstacle course.  I understand that you can't put
the beads directly into the cell because of splashing.  What I am saying is
that the hottest stuff in that cell would be the arcs, the cathode, and the
gases, in that order, and the gases are exiting the cell as fast as they
can.  The hottest stuff in the gasses would be the unknown stuff, which
would plate out as soon as it got out of the cell and hit a surface that was
cold enough.  This would be simple condensation, rather than recomination,
however the heat would sink out into the material that it plated onto.  That
could be the manometer, if it is the vane kind, but most likely in your
current set up, it would be on the tube walls and predominantly the copper
mesh screen.  The lighter stuff like the hydrogen and oxygen would move into
the recombiner and recombine.  There wouldn't be any W, for example that
could make it all the way to the bubble bowl.

I also understand that completely redesigning the experiment is not
something that you would want to just because of a possible heat loss, so
here is a proposed quick and EZ test that would tell you if your numbers and
assumptions are correct.  Just take a resistor and place it inside the
copper mesh, and run 1.45V*.08A or whatever you calculated the the caloric
value of the escaping gas to be for 20 minutes or a half and hour, and put
your hand on the outside of the line in various places and feel it.  This is
what a negligible amount of heat would feel like.  Remove the resistor, then
make your next run for the same length of time, and put your hand on various
parts of the recombiner line again, and if there is a noticable difference
anywhere on that line, then you will have some indication that your
assumptions are wrong.  If there is no difference in what you feel with your
hand, and I'll take your word on it, that would save you from having to drag
out a larger calorimeter.  This should take you less than an hour.  If you
don't trust your hand and memory, you can use a contact temp probe or a
digital thermometer.

>I'll put another power analyzer (one that can only handle 60 Hz stuff)
>there on the next run so we can at least see how efficient the EMI 150-10 is.

That's good idea.  You can test it first with a resistance load of similar
value, and then test it with this crazy radio cell. :-)  If you have a
contact temp probe, you can also go over the various components of the power
supply, and look for differences in temps between the two types of loads,
too.  That's EZ and always kind of fun.  You might have someone else in the
lab do that while you are doing the rest of the stuff, and it would be less
hectic.  Just write the times, temps, and probe locations down, and repeat
them as closely as possible for the next run.  Check the transformer, cap
bodies, chokes, chassis and whatever else you think might of.

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  7 10:56:56 1999
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Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 12:57:08 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: PLEC: CH 2330 (was H2K Calibration)
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At 10:53 6/7/99 -0400, Mike Carrell wrote:

>My caution was a predictive one,
>that there should be other observations to confirm that the instrument is
>giving reliable readings for the purpose at hand. You have done this.

Sorry I kinda jumped on you, Mike. I appreciate your predictive caution and
readily admit that the application on which the CH 2330 will fail miserably
is out there waiting for me to find it!

"Crest factor of 3" refers not to the frequency capability but to the
"headroom" that the voltage and current input channels have before they
saturate.  Note that they say that higher crest factors can be handled if
the RMS value of the voltage/current is relatively low.  That's because
you've got more headroom if your signal is low to begin with.

I think Mr. Clarke (or was it Mr. Hess you spoke to?) was just being
conservative if he led you to believe that the waveform NEEDED to be cyclic
in order to obtain a decent result from the 2330.  To date, I have yet to
find an application that makes it read significantly in error and that
includes the plasma discharge cells.  It also includes the artificially
generated "bursts of 40 KHz" waveform I used recently in a calibration
test.  This waveform and the excellent agreement between the results
produced by our VWFC calorimeter and the CH2330 can be seen at
http://www.eden.com/~little/vwfc/vwfc.html 

There are about 30 different sampling frequencies the thing can choose
from.  Presumably all of these frequencies are sufficiently high to provide
the advertised 400 KHz bandwidth.  If the CH 2330's microprocessor can't
identify a frequency in the input waveforms (e.g. on DC or something
"grass-like"), then presumably it just defaults to one of these sampling
frequencies and runs.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  7 12:57:48 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: PLEC: CH 2330 (was H2K Calibration)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 12:42:53 -0700 
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Scott
	Does the Clarke-Hess have an input data filter that limits its
bandwidth to 400KHz? It probably would not affect the performance much,
since any higher frequency stuff would end up in the capacitors of the
filter, and would eventually come out as lower frequency signals (aliasing).
You probably should use your good analog oscilloscope to look at signals
just to be sure about what you are seeing.

Hank
> ----------
> From: 	Scott Little[SMTP:little eden.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Monday, June 07, 1999 10:57 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Subject: 	PLEC: CH 2330 (was H2K Calibration)
> 
> At 10:53 6/7/99 -0400, Mike Carrell wrote:
> 
> >My caution was a predictive one,
> >that there should be other observations to confirm that the instrument is
> >giving reliable readings for the purpose at hand. You have done this.
> 
> Sorry I kinda jumped on you, Mike. I appreciate your predictive caution
> and
> readily admit that the application on which the CH 2330 will fail
> miserably
> is out there waiting for me to find it!
> 
> "Crest factor of 3" refers not to the frequency capability but to the
> "headroom" that the voltage and current input channels have before they
> saturate.  Note that they say that higher crest factors can be handled if
> the RMS value of the voltage/current is relatively low.  That's because
> you've got more headroom if your signal is low to begin with.
> 
> I think Mr. Clarke (or was it Mr. Hess you spoke to?) was just being
> conservative if he led you to believe that the waveform NEEDED to be
> cyclic
> in order to obtain a decent result from the 2330.  To date, I have yet to
> find an application that makes it read significantly in error and that
> includes the plasma discharge cells.  It also includes the artificially
> generated "bursts of 40 KHz" waveform I used recently in a calibration
> test.  This waveform and the excellent agreement between the results
> produced by our VWFC calorimeter and the CH2330 can be seen at
> http://www.eden.com/~little/vwfc/vwfc.html 
> 
> There are about 30 different sampling frequencies the thing can choose
> from.  Presumably all of these frequencies are sufficiently high to
> provide
> the advertised 400 KHz bandwidth.  If the CH 2330's microprocessor can't
> identify a frequency in the input waveforms (e.g. on DC or something
> "grass-like"), then presumably it just defaults to one of these sampling
> frequencies and runs.
> 
> 
> 
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  7 13:22:12 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: RE: PLEC: CH 2330 (was H2K Calibration)
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At 12:42 6/7/99 -0700, Hank S. wrote:

>Does the Clarke-Hess have an input data filter that limits its
>bandwidth to 400KHz?

I think it's just the sampling freq that determines the bandwidth.  On the
schematics and block diagrams, there is nothing that looks like a
deliberate input filter.

>You probably should use your good analog oscilloscope to look at signals
>just to be sure about what you are seeing.

Will do.  I've been lazy and thus have only used the nearly pocket-sized
digital scope we have.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  7 13:23:40 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC calorimetry
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At 13:04 6/7/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>See Figure 1, Experimental Arrangement.....

Gee, Jed.  Maybe one of these days I'll get the message that looking at the
drawings you sent me is IMPORTANT....<g>

Thank you.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  7 14:48:03 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC calorimetry
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Scott Little wrote:

>Gee, Jed.  Maybe one of these days I'll get the message that looking at the
>drawings you sent me is IMPORTANT....<g>

There were some others that did not seem important, which I did not send. I
figure you don't care to see the Pulse Shape from the He-3 Detector
(O-scope trace). I should probably send 'em all by mail. Please note that
Figs. 1 and 2 are schematics for the same system. There are too many
components for one page. Fig. 1 concentrates on the helium detection and
condenser; Fig 2. shows the flow calorimetry.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  7 15:02:27 1999
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Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 18:00:10 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Japan CF-Research Society formed
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On March 29 and 30 the first meeting of the Japan CF-Research Society (JCF)
was held at the Osaka University Convention Center. Twenty papers were
given. Most were from Osaka University, but interesting presentations were
also given by researchers from Hokkaido and Iwate National Universities,
Mitsubishi Heavy Industry (MHI), and Toshiba. I spent the day reading the
abstracts and translating a statement issued by the conference participants
regarding the formation of the society.

The society is supposed to have a Web page, which I presume will be in
Japanese. I have suggested to the organizers that they include some English
translations by me. The page is not functional yet, or I spelled it wrong.
It is (was, will be):

http://fomcane.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/user/jcf

We will have more about this in the next issue of Infinite Energy

- Jed

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Boron fusion
Date: 7 Jun 1999 19:14:14 GMT
From: jac ibms48.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr)
Organization: Supercomputer Computations Research Institute
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion,sci.physics
Followup-To: sci.physics.fusion
References: <19990526210217.15149.00000623 ng-fj1.aol.com>


  ... fusion newsgroup added with followups set there ...


In article <19990526210217.15149.00000623 ng-fj1.aol.com> 
dgoncz aol.com (DGoncz) writes:
>
>I read that a proton beam and a beam of boron atoms are being collided in a
>recent research reactor design. 

 That would be the proposal (not a machine that really exists) to use 
 p + 11B fusion.  The article about it is Rostoker, Binderbauer, and 
 Monkhorst, Science 278 (5342), 1419 (21 Nov 1997) based on a theory 
 published in Phys. Rev. Lett. 70, 1818 (1993).

>The boron absorbs the proton and becomes
>something relatively benigh, I think. Maybe they are isotope ten atoms and they
>become eleven, although IIRC the atomic number refers to the neutron count. The
>whole process doesn't generate any byproducts at all, as far as I can tell from
>the few descriptions I have read.

 It is p + 11B --> 3 (4He) via particle-unstable states in 12C.

 It was discussed at some length in sci.physics.fusion back when the 
 paper came out, so a dejanews search would be productive.

-- 
 James A. Carr   <jac scri.fsu.edu>     | Commercial e-mail is _NOT_ 
    http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~jac/       | desired to this or any address 
 Supercomputer Computations Res. Inst.  | that resolves to my account 
 Florida State, Tallahassee FL 32306    | for any reason at any time.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  7 15:57:34 1999
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Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 14:56:49 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
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At 5:18 PM 6/6/99, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>On Sun, 6 Jun 1999 09:36:53 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>[snip]
>>>Somehow this smells a little too much of "getting something for
>>>nothing". Wouldn't it also drop the voltage across the cells?
>>
>>
>>Raising efficiency *is* getting something for nothing, at least gas instead
>>of heat, but it doesn't necessarily mean violation of COE.
>>
>>Provided the voltage is sufficient to cause electrolysis, voltage is
>>irrelevant to the volume of gas evolved, true?   This is one reason why
>>Avogadro's number is so handy, and why electro-plating is a means of
>>integrating current.
>So if I understand you correctly, you are assuming that the builder
>doesn't calculate the number of cells correctly, and ends up with an
>inefficient device. Then putting in a capacitor can act as a form of
>fine tuning, allowing him/her to get the best possible out of it?


Yes, true in part,  especially because having a varible inductor or
capacitor does permit fine tuning, and that can correct for minor and
possibly varying paramters.  A Brown's gas generator is an AC device, so
tuning it to resonance at least permits the circuit to run to the same
level of efficiency (excluding recombination at the plates) as a DC device.
This could be a significant improvement if a large plate area is used, if
the plates are very close, or if a semiconducting dielectric film covers
either of the plates.   Running at resonance eliminates the current
attenuation from the capacitance and inductance in the circuit.

However, this tuning might be carried to deeper levels, beyond that which
DC electrolysis can go, if a natural resonance frequency of the electrolyte
itself can be utilized.  Once a cell is constructed and operated a bit, it
might be of use to look at cell conductivity as a function of frequency,
and then operate the cell in a circuit that resonates at one of the peak
conductance frequencies.  Electrolytes don't have a uniform conductance,
and the cell itself may develop some peaks due to film formation.

All the above may be nitpicking a bit.  However, I think vapor state
electrolysis, having a much wider range between the thermoneutral voltage
and the reversible voltage, as well as much lower cell resistance, possibly
offers much more improvement to be gained from operation at resonance.  The
lower the cell resistance the more that can be gained from operating at
resonance if the cell is AC.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  7 16:51:45 1999
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        74543.433 compuserve.com, 6schwartz@ccit.arizona.edu, haa@igpp.de,
        djacobs temple.edu, jbenveniste@digibio.com, JamesRandi@compuserve.com,
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Subject: SSE: McKubre: heat & helium in Case cell: Benveniste: Randi: Case posts 
 6.7.99
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June 7, 1999   Hello,   I am very pleased to tell of a report by Mike
McKubre [ mike_mckubre qm.sri.com ] of Stanford Research Institute
on on-going research on Les Case's cell.

It uses a commercial porous carbon catalyst, coated with palladium,
to catalyze D2 gas at 3 atm into helium, producing steady heat
output and a linear rise of helium to almost 11 ppm, twice
the background of 5.2 ppm, from day 5 to 30 of the run.  The sealed 50
cc metal cell is connected directly to a highly sensitive mass
spectrometer, well able to totally separate out the D2 peak from the
helium peak.  A control run with H2 produced absolutely no effects.
The heat output of about .5 to 1.0 W was compatible with the reaction:
2 D -> 4-He + 24 Mev. About a dozen Case cells have been run, with a
success rate of about one in two or three.  There are some tricks in
getting it to work: the catalyst has to be cleaned and kept clean.

The fact that the cells can not always be made to work increases the
credibility of the report in my eyes, as I would expect a simple
artifact to occur every time, since the output helium rises in a 
simple, untroubled line.  My meager wits are unable to imagine any
applicable artifact.  Therefore, I expect this breakthrough success
to continue at SRI, and to be speedily replicated by other labs.
In addition, since in physics, the basic rule is that what is not
prohibited is mandatory, then we must give much greater credance to
the vast body of reports of the many varieties of cold fusion in the
last ten years.  The seedling has not expired, and deserves copious
watering.  Without being specific, McKubre said that theoretical
progress was being made.

McKubre, lucid, calm, confident, pleased, said that the evidence
for excess heat was "essentially overwhelming," and told me, "Les
Case is an incredible man."

McKubre also reported successful production of excess heat with a
palladium & heavy water electrolytic cell.

McKubre spoke at 4:40 PM Thursday, June 3, 1999, at the Society
for Scientific Exploration 18th Annual Meeting, Northrup Hall,
University of New Mexico, Albuquerque, June 3-5.  The first
afternoon session was for cold fusion.  George Miley of the
Low Energy Nuclear Reactions Lab at University of Illinois at
Urbana-Champaign [ gmiley uiuc.edu ] presented his well-known
claims of massive nuclear transmutations in plated 1 mm plastic
beads, coated with Ni, Pd, or, in Run # 15, Ti, a metal not
previously publicly mentioned to my knowledge, in weeks of
electrolyis in light water.  These two dozen runs were
done in 1996.

Ed Storms [ storms2 ix.netcom.com ] read a report
by Thomas Claytor [ claytor lanl.gov, 505-667-6216 ] and four others
on long on-going, underfunded convincing steady production of helium
from high-voltage plasma discharge on Pd alloys in low-pressure
deuterium. His summary chart of dozens of Pd alloys was dated 4/98.

Melvin H. Miles [ melmiles ridgecrest.ca.us, milesmh@navair.navy.mil,
760-939-1652w, 760-371-1766h ], again reported data from runs in 1993
and 1994 at China Lake that showed helium and excess heat from
electrolysis with Pd and heavy water: 28 of 94 runs had excess heat.
About 10E11 atoms of He/sec-W were produced with Pd alloy with .75% B.

Our distinguished and amiable chairperson was John Bockris
[ bockris myriad.net ], who mentioned that Hideo Kozima is publishing
a 350-page book, reviewing the field in the light of his
trapped cold neutron theory [ sphkoji sci.shizuoka.ac.jp ].

Robert L. Park, a notable CF critic, was present [ opa aps.org ].

I reckon I'll have to tote my four cubic feet of CF materials back
into my house from my Tuffs shed.  I was glad to be able to donate
to Toby Grotz of Craig, CO [ wireless cmn.net ] some high voltage
capacitors and transformers, an oscilloscope, and a paper strip
chart recorder (donated to me in 1996 by Mark Hugo).   Toby has
a mass spectrometer running, and, given some funding, could
quickly run all kinds of experiments

The meeting included about 130 members of the SSE, which has 
747 members, live, kicking, and dues paid.  Membership is $ 75,
while Associate status, open to all, is $ 55.  
www.scientificexploration.org   hwf virginia.edu

The bi-annual Journal of Scientific Exploration is
www.jse.com   sims jse.com   650-593-8581  .

Many reports were so anomalous that speaker after speaker would
scratch their heads, as they started to speak, "Well, this is the
first time, I've been the conservative one at a meeting!"

Jane Robb described the amazingly specialized injection gun
structure of a soil fungus.

Lee Pulos showed slides of Thomaz Gren Morton of Brazil,
transforming in fifteen minutes a bowl of broken unfertilized eggs
into live, damp chicks.

Larry Dossey [ Ldossey ix.netcom.com ] summarized ongoing
successful studies proving the reality of prayer healing at Duke
University, while Bill Bengston [ bengston aol.com ]
showed slides of mice being healed of cancer by psychic work in
many experiments by briefly trained, skeptical students.

[ Sicher F, Targ E, Moore D 2nd, Smith HS.  A randomized
double-blind study of the effect of distant healing in a population
with advanced AIDS. Report of a small scale study.
West J Med. 1998 Dec; 169(6): 356-63.
Geraldine Brush Cancer Research Institute,
California Pacific Medical Center, San Francisco, USA.   Abstract:
Various forms of distant healing (DH), including prayer and "psychic
healing," are widely practiced, but insufficient formal research has
been done to indicate whether such efforts actually affect health.
We report on a double-blind randomized trial of DH in 40 patients with
advanced AIDS. Subjects were pair-matched for age, CD4+ count, and
number of AIDS-defining illnesses and randomly selected to either 10
weeks of DH treatment or a control group. DH treatment was performed
by self-identified healers representing many different healing and
spiritual traditions. Healers were located throughout the United
States during the study, and subjects and healers never met. Subjects
were assessed by psychometric testing and blood draw at enrollment
and followed for 6 months. At 6 months, a blind medical chart review
found that treatment subjects acquired significantly fewer new
AIDS-defining illnesses (0.1 versus 0.6 per patient, P = 0.04), had
lower illness severity (severity score 0.8 versus 2.65, P = 0.03),
and required significantly fewer doctor visits (9.2 versus 13.0,
P = 0.01), fewer hospitalizations (0.15 versus 0.6, P = 0.04),
and fewer days of hospitalization (0.5 versus 3.4, P = 0.04).
Treated subjects also showed significantly improved mood compared with
controls (Profile of Mood States score -26 versus 14, P = 0.02). There
were no significant differences in CD4+ counts. These data support the
possibility of a DH effect in AIDS and suggest the value of
further research. ]

Walter E. Dibble, Jr. showed copious graphs of pH and temperature
changes
induced for weeks in pure water by simple electronic black boxes,
previously charged with "intention" by a group of psychics far away.

John Hotchin [ 74543.433 compuserve.com ] gave a relatively prosaic
account of his own many precognitive dreams.

George Schwartz [ 6schwartz ccit.arizona.edu ] showed a video of
five mediums getting the same results with a single subject on the
same day.

H. Atmanspacer [ haa igpp.de ] showed that a subtle analysis could
sensitively prove non-randomess in the data from random number
generators, in many PK runs.

J-J Velasco described 201 cases in which radar and visual
observations of UFOs gave largely the same results.

David Jacobs [ djacobs temple.edu ] and John Mack [PEER1492@aol.com ]
each presented summaries of years of clinical work with abductees,
showing that the data had features, such as internal consistency, that
ruled out prosaic dismissals.

Jacques Benveniste [ jbenveniste digibio.com ] gave many recent studies
on recording 7 seconds of digital signals at audio frequences from a
coil surrounding some water with a dissolved drug, and then playing
the signal through a coil surrounding another vial of pure water,
far way in time and space, whereupon the "imprinted" water would
exhibit the characteristic specific drug activity on living cells.
[He and Brian Josephson, the Nobel Prize winner, are now negotiating
with James Randi [ JamesRandi compuserve.com ] to agree on a protocol
for an attempt at his famous million-dollar prize.]

A refreshing change of pace was given by two negative reports: 
young Matthew Salganik [ msalganik yahoo.com ] gave an outstandingly
lucid and reasonable report of an attempt at testing if a world event
would produce a "field effect" on 11 random number generators, while
Imants Baruss failed with "Intrumental Transcommunication"-- electronic 
contact with the dead.

Someone wrote on the blackboard that theory states that a cubic
angstrom of space contains as much intrinsic zero point fluctuation
energy as all visible matter within the 20 billion light years
of the observable universe-- to me this suggestsldo sufficient wiggle
room for "more wonders in earth and heaven, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy, Horatio."

Brian O'Leary [ oleary maiu.net ], an ex-astronaut and geologist
with 100 published papers, mentioned three paradigm popping events
in his life: 1979, his own success at doing remote viewing in an
experiment; 1980, healing his own "permanently damaged" left knee
with two months of visualization; 1981, a near-death-experience from
a car crash.  He later visited Thomaz Green Morton, among others.

As one,  Rich Murray  Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103  505-920.6130 cellular VoiceStream
rmforall earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmforall

Subject: Message from Jacques Benveniste
  Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 05:41:02 -0700
 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
        Date: Tue, 18 May 99 08:39:28 -0000
        From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
    Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
          To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>

Vortexians:

I am passing this on from Dr. Truzzi. I had seen the Time Magazine
article on Benveniste. It was in either this or the last issue. Don't
have it at my finger tips. Perhaps someone else will post it.

Gene Mallove

Dr. Benveniste has asked me to help him post this as widely as possible.
So here it is. --Marcello Truzzi
---------
A warning to all those involved in the APS trial:

I read in WHAT'S NEW by Robert L. Park Friday, 14 May 99 Washington, DC
the following sentence:

"3. THE CHALLENGE: HOMEOPATHY VIA THE INTERNET. As revealed by Time
Magazine this week, I have been in discussions with Brian Josephson
(1973 Nobel Prize in Physics) over a protocol for a proposed
double-blind trial of the claims of French homeopathist Jacques
Benveniste."

Well, my position is utterly simple: I shall immediately cut all
relationship with anybody calling me an "homeopathist". It is not that
I consider this as derogatory; it is that this "innocent" wording is in
fact a manipulation aimed at confining our research into a ghetto, that
of "alternative science". Anybody willing to be informed and abiding by
the elementary rules of scientific or press ethics should know, print
and possibly comment what is on our website: we record and transfer the
molecular signal, whatever the concentration of the source. What Leon
Jaroff printed in Time Magazine reflects Leon Jaroff's obsessions and
has nothing to do with informed and objective journalism. The surprise
is that a magazine of the reputation of Time opens its columns to such a
gross disfiguration.

The experiment with the APS (which is a far cry from what is described
by RL Park, who seems to never bother to check its sources) shall bear
on the "transmission to a biological system of a recorded specific
biological signal". Period. A signal is a signal is a signal. Anybody
calling it homeo-, allo-, or whathaveyouo-pathic, simply shows his/her
inability to comprehend the fundamentals of this research.

A bon entendeur, salut!

J. Benveniste, MD, Ancien Interne des Hôpitaux de Paris; Ancien Chef de
Clinique (Endocrinology, Intensive care); Directeur de Recherche (I)
à L'INSERM; Médaille d'Argent du CNRS for the discovery of
Platelet-Activating Factor; member, American Association of
Immunologists (1974); Chevalier de l'Ordre du Mérite.

------------------------------------------
PLEASE NOTE MODIFIED E-MAIL ADDRESS BELOW
------------------------------------------
Dr. Jacques Benveniste, Laboratoire de Biologie Numérique
Digital Biology Laboratory, 32, rue des Carnets, F-92140 Clamart
Tel : +33 (0)1 46 01 58 40 Fax : +33 (0)1 46 31 02 77
GSM : +33(0)6 09 68 25 01
<http://www.digibio.com> See also <http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10>
<mailto: jbenveniste digibio.com>
---------------------------------

Subject:  Reminder/Benvinste Update
   Date:  Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:18:23 GMT
   From:  James Randi --- Wizard <JREFInfo ssr.com>
     To:  broadcast-JREFInfo ssr.com

For USA/Canada readers.....

Tonight-- Thursday -- ABC-TV will run an updated repeat of "The Power
of Belief" special hosted by John Stossel.  At 10 p.m. in most areas,
but consult your local listings.

The Fox News Channel show that ran over last weekend will be repeated
too, but air date not yet announced.  We'll keep you updated.

Several of our applicants for the million-dollar prize have been
proposed to another major TV show for testing on their network.  It's
been pretty well narrowed down to one confident applicant, and we'll
notify you when that's scheduled.

The student awardees have now been notified, and we're awaiting
acceptance letters and photos for posting on the web page.

Finally, re the Josephson/Benveniste/APS situation: You will recall
that Nobel laureate Brian Josephson has challenged the American
Physical Society to back a scientific test of homeopathy by means of
the claims made by Jacques Benveniste-- the only two-time winner of
Harvard University's "Ignobel Prize" for pseudoscience.  The JREF has
enthusiastically cheered on APS's Bob Park, and has agreed that should
the homeopaths succeed in this simple test, that would serve as the
preliminary test of the million-dollar prize we offer.  As expected,
the two scientists who support belief in homeopathy have disdained
such crass commercialism, but we have maintained our generous offer.
Now it appears that Professor Josephson, as we predicted, is puzzled
at Benveniste's reluctance to perform the test.  Dr. Benveniste runs
on about the need for hundreds of guinea pig or rat hearts needed to
perform an "in vivo" test, while Josephson persists in his conviction
that a simple, inexpensive, "in vitro" analysis should be used, as
Benveniste's discoveries seemed to have promised.  Benveniste now
mumbles that further refinement of his test is needed, and that in any
case he is no longer interested in biological tests, but only in the
physics principles involved.  Beleagured Bob Park is consulting in
person-- in vivo! -- with Benveniste at about the time you'll be
reading this, and will doubtless be even more confounded by what he
will be told.  We had warned him that this would be a bumpy ride, with
no seat belts available.  Meanwhile, an amateur applicant for the
prize who we've put on "hold" until this matter is resolved, is all
a-twitter over the fact that the Nobel laureate has been in personal
touch with him through e-mail, and a new angle-- some recent
yeast-cell test of homeopathy -- has been introduced.  My, my, how the
plot thickens!

It's a pretty interesting situation.  A prominent winner in England of
the Nobel Prize has taken up the case for a prominent (two-time!)
winner in France of the Ignobel Prize, and challenged a prominent
organization in the USA-- the American Physical Society -- to test a
prominent version of quackery known as homeopathy, while a prominent
international award-- the Pigasus Prize -- stands waiting to be
claimed.  And it's proving VERY difficult for us to give away this
money!

Stay tuned.  James Randi.

[We've been busily sending out copies of the "Document" offered by the
JREF.  The response was greater than we'd anticipated, but we're staying
on top of it.  I'm personally grateful that so many are interested.]

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Report by Jed Rothwell [ JedRothwell infinite-energy.com ]
4.26.98 from ICCF-7:

L. C. Case: Gas loading with commercial hydrogenation catalyst
consisting of ~1% palladium on activated carbon. The cell must be
maintained at a temperature between 150 and 250 deg C, no higher or
lower. It is first loaded with hydrogen, which cleans the catalyst and
purges oxygen. It is then evacuated and loaded with deuterium. The
temperature rises 5 to 30 deg C over the baseline temperature
established with hydrogen, indicating 10 to 30 watts of excess heat.
The excess heat lasts for weeks. He has never let it run indefinitely.
He quenches the heat by letting the cell cool. The experiment has been
repeated dozens of times successfully. Cravens commented that the
treatment with hydrogen may be important. It serves as a null run and it
cleans the catalyst. Someone asked Case whether the hydrogen blanks
might be producing heat. He responded that he would have no way of
telling; he only knows that deuterium is much warmer. (He ignores
differences less than 5 deg C.) I was suspicious that this might be an
artifact of the different conduction coefficients of deuterium and
hydrogen. Such problems were reported by Mizuno, Oriani and others
working with gas calorimeters. I asked Case about the position of the
thermocouples, gas pressure, calibration techniques and the cell wall
temperature. I am satisfied this type of artifact is not a factor.

In his conference summation, McKubre cited this as one of the most
significant papers, because Case appears to have developed a 100%
reproducible process, and because he is willing to publish all details
about experiment. Mallove and I agree that this may be the most
important experiment in cold fusion. At present, Case uses an
uninsulated steel cell which he holds at the critical temperature with
an electric heater. We advised him to move the cell to an insulated
container, perhaps a Dewar, and to turn off the electric heater once the
reaction begins. If this is a genuine cold fusion excess heat reaction,
the cell should self-heat and remain hot indefinitely with no input,
probably for years. This test would do away with the need for
calorimetry and resolve all doubts about the existence of the excess
heat.

Case is a retired chemical engineer who has decades of experience
working with these catalysts. Beginning in 1989, he scoured the catalogs
and requested sample materials from several chemical companies. He
tested hundreds of samples at different temperatures and pressures, in
an Edisonian search for one that would rapidly absorb deuterium and
develop excess heat reliably. He finally found a particular type of
catalyst that is available from three suppliers. He has filed for an
international patent, which requires that all details be revealed even
before the patent is granted. I do not have the patent number or the
catalog part numbers, but I will get them soon. Case has agreed to bring
his cell to Mallove's laboratory in Bow, New Hampshire next Thursday for
independent verification. The materials in this cell simple and cheap.
The chemical companies can supply tons of the catalyst, and only 50 to
100 grams of the catalyst is need for each small cell, so this would
make an ideal demonstration cell. If we determine it works, we hope to
license the device, manufacture and sell hundreds of demonstration kits
within one month. We move fast here at Infinite Energy!

Case took samples to Prague where he rented the use of a nuclear
research laboratory to search for neutrons during the heat events, but
after extensive research he determined there are none. Case took a cell
that had run for weeks to Oak Ridge. They found 100 ppm helium in the
used gas, and no significant helium in the unused gas or catalyst
material.

Scott Little 4.28.98 [ little eden.com, Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres
Little, 1406 Old Wagon Road, Austin TX 78746  512-328-4071
Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX) ]:
I spoke with Dr. Case this morning and got all the picky details of his
preferred protocol.  He also gave me the catalog number, G-75E, of the
Pd-on-carbon catalyst from United Catalysts that has worked best in his
experiments.  I am trying to get some from them now.

Meanwhile, we already have some 1% Pd on carbon catalyst on hand and Dr.
Case indicated that it would probably suffice to see the effect.

Scott Little 4.29.99:

I spoke with Doug Perkins of United Catalysts today (502-634-7241) and
ordered a 100 cc "sample" of G-75E catalyst for $300.  It will be here
in a couple of days.  Doug is the guy that Case has been working with
over the last 2 years and he is fairly well convinced that Case is onto
a genuine effect.

G-75D catalyst -- 0.4% Pd activated carbon catalyst from:
United Catalysts, Inc. (attn: Douglas Perkins, 502-634-7241)
PO Box 32370  Louisville, KY 40232

Jed Rothwell 5.1.98:
Over 250 deg C because the catalyst self-destructs and the reaction
halts abruptly. It is a good fail safe mechanism.

Mallove 5.2.99:
I have scanned Dr. Leslie Case's issued PCT notice for Catalytic
Fusion, having obtained this public document from Derwent in Virginia. 
Issue #19 of Infinite Energy Magazine will include this material, plus
lots more concerning this new development by Dr. Case.  This posting
follows my earlier posting of a replication demonstration of the process
by Dr. Case here at Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. on April 30, 1998.

Incidentally, I looked up Leslie Case in my MIT Alumni register. He has
these MIT degrees: SB Chemical Engineering (1952); SB Industrial
Management; SM Chemical Engineering Practice; Sc.D. Chemical
Engineering

Best, Gene Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine  Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302  Phone: 603-228-4516
Fax:   603-224-5975  editor infinite-energy.com
www.infinite-energy.com  603-224-5975
Scott Little 5.19.98:

Take a look at:
http://www.eden.com/~little/case/run5.html

Executive Summary:
Our batting average is still .000 and this was with Dr Case's own
catalyst!

Scott Little 5.28.99:
Take a quick look at:
http://www.eden.com/~little/case/run7.html

It shows that the catalyst is not required for the thermal oscillations
I observed in Run 5 & 6.

I have spoken to Dr. Case again and he continues to emphasize the need
for near-complete replacement of the H2 on the catalyst with D2 in order
to see his effect.  Run 8 will attempt to accomplish this.  

Run 8 is presently underway with the 20 grams of G75-D catalyst that
Case sent me in the chamber.  Since Case thinks its important to get rid
of all the H2, I did not start this run with H2 at all.  Instead, I
started right off with D2. In my system, the water-flow calorimetry
provides an absolute measure of the heat released by the experiment.
I do not need to compare the temperature of the catalyst-H2 mixture to
the temperature of the catalyst-D2 mixture as Case does.

Run 8 has been underway for about 7 hours now and the 4th charge of D2
is in the chamber.  I leave the chamber under high vacuum for 10
minutes (extra long) between charges to help remove adsorbed H2 from
the catalyst surface.  Thus far there is not even the slightest hint of
excess heat.  My calorimetry is working well enough that 1 watt of real
excess heat would make an unmistakably positive signal.  Even 1/2 watt
would get my attention.

I will leave Run 8 "cooking" overnight and resume the evac-refill cycles
tomorrow.  

Case's system is 13 times larger than mine in volume.  In his procedure,
the residual H2 left on the catalyst is trapped in the system when he
fills the chamber with D2.  It's just the larger volume of D2 that
serves to mostly replace the H2 on the catalyst with D2.  In my present
situation, I'm completely evacuating the chamber between each filling
of D2 so I REMOVE the H2 that comes off and replace it with PURE D2 for
the next cycle.  

Does anybody want to venture a guess as to how many of my cycles would
be equivalent to Case's procedure?  Seems like ~8 flushes should get my
catalyst to have less H2 than his, no?

Horace:  For Run 8, I installed a temperature sensor on the bulkhead
that forms the ceiling of my chamber.  It reads about 95C when the
catalyst is 180C.  In other words, I have succeeded in creating a
significant temperature gradient in my chamber, as Case surely has in
his. All Vorts:  I appreciate the discussion that has occurred.  I'm
reading and considering everything.
Stay tuned for Run 8!

Jed Rothwell 3.26.99:
3. Replications of the Case experiment, which are mainly been performed
by Russ George[ rgeorege hooked.net ] and Fran Tanzella
[fran_tanzella qm.sri.com ], under the guidance of Les Case.

This was one of the most important papers ever presented in this field.
Unfortunately, the data from this experiment appears in the second
volume describing EPRI's cold fusion research, and this publication
costs $20,000. (The book is free to members EPRI, which is a consortium
of electric power companies.) It is a terrible shame that these
spectacular results are effectively kept secret behind this $20,000
barrier.

Morrison asked why the second experiment has not been repeated. McKubre
explained that the data shown represents five man years of work and a
huge amount of money, so he is looking for cheaper "cleverer" ways to
do it. He thinks the Case experiments fit this description, and he said
they are "almost ready for prime time," meaning he is nearly ready to
present them. He also intends to check six samples from the Case cell
for helium-3.

Since Russ George was in attendance, McKubre stepped aside and George
briefly described replications of the Case cell replications. In this
experiment, palladium on carbon catalysts are exposed to deuterium gas.
Excess heat and helium are detected. George first showed a graph
demonstrating the resolution of their on-line mass spectrometer, which
clearly separates peaks for helium-4 and deuterium. Then he showed two
helium production curves in one graph. Two cells were run side by side,
one with hydrogen, the other with deuterium gas. The hydrogen sample did
not produce excess heat or significant helium. The deuterium sample
produced steady excess heat and a steady increase in helium
concentration up to 11 ppm for 28 days, when experiment was terminated.
This is far above atmospheric concentration, 5.2 ppm. Contamination is
ruled out, because a leak could only reduce the level of helium. This
experiment is now being reproduced at SRI and two other laboratories.
George said it is slow and difficult work.

Akari Kawasaki 4.7.99 [ aki ix.netcom.com ]:
The way "Palladium Electrochemistry" was chaired by Scott Chubb was
"efficient". Jed made a nice report on the session. I just have a
little difference on the way Russ George was given a chance to report
on his successful Case replication experiment. This was buttressed by
reviewing the videotape of the session. As an aside, I was surprised
to see Douglas Morrison in attendance for this small session, as
contrasted with the ICCF's that he has been attending. Regardless of
his seeming position, I later congratulated him as being a member of
the 'Loyal Opposition' as he sat later by himself with some coffee and
paper. This is healthy as contrasted with activities reported by Jed
of Park, Zimmerman, Huizenga, et al on Monday. The session was started
by Scott Chubb at 14:00. Since this was the last session to be held in
that room, Scott Chubb remarked that we had essentially until 17:00
for ourselves. However, the 'formal' presentations were kept to a timed
10 minutes (+-) for each presentation.  In the last of his three-part
presentation by McKubre, his 'time' allotment ran out, so he did not
give the Case replication report. At the start of his presentation, he
flashed a viewgraph cover of the replication with Tanzella, George, and
Case listed as co-authors (and I presume, McKubre too since he was
reporting and was listed in an earlier abstract of his presentation
with his name and Tanzella as authors, but without George or Case).
Then, after Mckubre's presentation was cut because of the 'time limit',
Scott Chubb recognized Russ George in the back and invited him to come
foward and fill out the Case replication report. (Not many expected
George to be present). But as Russ George was coming foward, Chubb
closed the 'formal' session (after 15:00) and there were some talk of
taking a break before hearing George. Under the circumstances, George
made a very 'quickie' presentation (about 5 minutes) with a viewgraph
presentation of the helium results.  Thereafter, since the session was
already closed, followed loose active discussions on the state of CF as
mentioned by Jed.  Now, I later noticed that George's graph was higher
than the helium concentration he mentioned to me earlier. He agreed that
it was. It was a later graph.

Russ George has posted at his Saturna Technologies website his full
presentation of the Case replication effort conducted in July, 1998 with
graphs and picutres with credits distributed properly. You can see his
cells used in the experiment. It is different than what Case
constructed.  This was what was to be presented at the APS if given
proper opportunity and time rather then the truncated one. I think a
viewing and reading of his post is called for by the Vortex membership
and others.  <<http://rsrch.com/saturna/APSpapers_1998_1999.htm>>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  7 17:11:35 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 20:07:02 EDT
Subject: Re: Hydrino Theory ?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In message Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 19:44:56 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:

"Hence, it seems that Mill's should in fact be able to create his hydrinos,
and hence he should be capable of identifying those species in astro
physical spectra.  But, those should **absorb** energy from their
surroundings, not release it.  ie, in the Na Na H collision he speaks of in
the gas phase device, it seems to me that the collision should crush the
hydrogen atom down into that hydrino state, by ABSORBING energy, not by
emitting it."

1)  Mills has created hydrinos, as well as hydrino hydride compounds.  See 
his 1999 book or his company's website <www.blacklightpower.com>

2)  He has identified hydrino states in astrophysical data.  See his 1999 
book or his company's website <www.blacklightpower.com>

3)  He doesn't speak of an "Na Na H" collision.  To the contrary, he has said 
many times that sodium won't work.  And it doesn't.  No one will ever be able 
to make a demonstration cell running sodium with hydrogen in the gas-phase 
cell or running a nickel cathode in an electrolyte of sodium carbonate.  
Mills says that you need a collision between potassium ions and neutral atoms 
of H.

4)  According to Mills, the collision between potassium ions and neutral 
atoms of H does absorb energy from the H atom, thus catalyzing it to an 
energy state below the conventional ground state.  The energy is then 
released by the potassium catalyst.  See Mills' 1999 book or his company's 
website <www.blacklightpower.com>

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  7 17:29:03 1999
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Subject: Re: Hydrino Theory ?
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At 08:07 PM 6/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>In message Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 19:44:56 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
>
>"Hence, it seems that Mill's should in fact be able to create his hydrinos,
>and hence he should be capable of identifying those species in astro
>physical spectra.  But, those should **absorb** energy from their
>surroundings, not release it.  ie, in the Na Na H collision he speaks of in
>the gas phase device, it seems to me that the collision should crush the
>hydrogen atom down into that hydrino state, by ABSORBING energy, not by
>emitting it."
>
>1)  Mills has created hydrinos, as well as hydrino hydride compounds.  See 
>his 1999 book or his company's website <www.blacklightpower.com>
>
>2)  He has identified hydrino states in astrophysical data.  See his 1999 
>book or his company's website <www.blacklightpower.com>

been here and read a bit about it.  That isn't the point.  I agree that the
absorption lines etc can be there.  I am saying that it seems more
reasonable that the hydrino formation process is endothermic as at some
point, the collapse of the electron into the proton must result in the
formation of a neutron.  The neutron is at a higher mass level than the
proton electron combination, and has more energy bound in it's nuclear
structure, not less, than the proton.

>
>3)  He doesn't speak of an "Na Na H" collision.  

Sorry, my goof, yes it was K (the other alkali metal  ;-)


>4)  According to Mills, the collision between potassium ions and neutral 
>atoms of H does absorb energy from the H atom, thus catalyzing it to an 
>energy state below the conventional ground state.  The energy is then 
>released by the potassium catalyst.  See Mills' 1999 book or his company's 
>website <www.blacklightpower.com>


I understand this is what he says, but it makes no sense.  At some level,
there must be a saddle.  ie, you can get energy out as the electron drops
down into the protons potential well, and photons of energy are released.
But, at some saddle point, if the electron collapses further, then that
process must be endothermic.  we know this because if you collapse the
electron all the way to form a neutron, it is endothermic.

I don't contest that hydrinos can form.  I don't contest that when they
form you can form atomic absorption spectra to show exactly those
wavelengths.  I don't contest that you can use ions like K to catalize
their formation.

What I do object to is the direction he claims the energy is going in when
you do it.  It is much more logical that hydrino formation is an
endothermic process that is driven by **absorbing** energy from the K atoms
and or ions to crush the ground state hydrogen atom into a sub ground state.  

Put another way, it seems to me that hydrinos would result in a valuable
refrigerant technology, but not a source of energy.

rt


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  7 17:43:19 1999
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Subject: Re: SSE: McKubre: heat & helium in Case cell: Benveniste: Randi
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 99 20:32:49 -0000
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ALL:

Rich Murray's report of the SSE meeting is stunning in that we have not 
only an excellent report of multiple successful replications of the Case 
work by McKubre et al at SRI -- excess heat AND helium, but we also have 
the apparent "transmutation" of Rich Murray himself -- welcome aboard, 
Rich, if you really ARE on board from now on!

>
>The fact that the cells can not always be made to work increases the
>credibility of the report in my eyes, as I would expect a simple
>artifact to occur every time, since the output helium rises in a 
>simple, untroubled line.  My meager wits are unable to imagine any
>applicable artifact.  Therefore, I expect this breakthrough success
>to continue at SRI, and to be speedily replicated by other labs.

I especially like this section:

>In addition, since in physics, the basic rule is that what is not
>prohibited is mandatory, then we must give much greater credance to
>the vast body of reports of the many varieties of cold fusion in the
>last ten years.  The seedling has not expired, and deserves copious
>watering.  

So now Rich Murray has stepped into the class of "True Believers" in cold 
fusion ( no matter how long it took him to get there). He  may also now 
receive the slings and arrows from the likes of Park.

By the way, Rich, what WAS that arch-bigot Park's reaction to McKubre's 
talk? Did he have any? Do you agree that if Park pisses on the 
Case-McKubre et al results -- or ignores them, as is his usual mode -- 
then he has lost any credibility that he might have had?

If you want to write and article for IE on your SSE meeting transmutation 
from skeptic to "believer" -- I'll consider looking it.....

Best wishes,

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

Ph:  603-228-4516
Fax: 603-224-5975

editor infinite-energy.com
www.infinite-energy.com



>Without being specific, McKubre said that theoretical
>progress was being made.
>
>McKubre, lucid, calm, confident, pleased, said that the evidence
>for excess heat was "essentially overwhelming," and told me, "Les
>Case is an incredible man."
>
>McKubre also reported successful production of excess heat with a
>palladium & heavy water electrolytic cell.
>
>McKubre spoke at 4:40 PM Thursday, June 3, 1999, at the Society
>for Scientific Exploration 18th Annual Meeting, Northrup Hall,
>University of New Mexico, Albuquerque, June 3-5.  The first
>afternoon session was for cold fusion.  George Miley of the
>Low Energy Nuclear Reactions Lab at University of Illinois at
>Urbana-Champaign [ gmiley uiuc.edu ] presented his well-known
>claims of massive nuclear transmutations in plated 1 mm plastic
>beads, coated with Ni, Pd, or, in Run # 15, Ti, a metal not
>previously publicly mentioned to my knowledge, in weeks of
>electrolyis in light water.  These two dozen runs were
>done in 1996.

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June 7, 1999   Hello,   I am very pleased to tell of a report by Mike
McKubre [ mike_mckubre qm.sri.com ] of Stanford Research Institute
on on-going research on Les Case's cell.

It uses a commercial porous carbon catalyst, coated with palladium,
to catalyze D2 gas at 3 atm into helium, producing steady heat
output and a linear rise of helium to almost 11 ppm, twice
the background of 5.2 ppm, from day 5 to 30 of the run.  The sealed 50
cc metal cell is connected directly to a highly sensitive mass
spectrometer, well able to totally separate out the D2 peak from the
helium peak.  A control run with H2 produced absolutely no effects.
The heat output of about .5 to 1.0 W was compatible with the reaction:
2 D -> 4-He + 24 Mev. About a dozen Case cells have been run, with a
success rate of about one in two or three.  There are some tricks in
getting it to work: the catalyst has to be cleaned and kept clean.

The fact that the cells can not always be made to work increases the
credibility of the report in my eyes, as I would expect a simple
artifact to occur every time, since the output helium rises in a 
simple, untroubled line.  My meager wits are unable to imagine any
applicable artifact.  Therefore, I expect this breakthrough success
to continue at SRI, and to be speedily replicated by other labs.
In addition, since in physics, the basic rule is that what is not
prohibited is mandatory, then we must give much greater credance to
the vast body of reports of the many varieties of cold fusion in the
last ten years.  The seedling has not expired, and deserves copious
watering.  Without being specific, McKubre said that theoretical
progress was being made.

McKubre, lucid, calm, confident, pleased, said that the evidence
for excess heat was "essentially overwhelming," and told me, "Les
Case is an incredible man."

McKubre also reported successful production of excess heat with a
palladium & heavy water electrolytic cell.

McKubre spoke at 4:40 PM Thursday, June 3, 1999, at the Society
for Scientific Exploration 18th Annual Meeting, Northrup Hall,
University of New Mexico, Albuquerque, June 3-5.  The first
afternoon session was for cold fusion.  George Miley of the
Low Energy Nuclear Reactions Lab at University of Illinois at
Urbana-Champaign [ gmiley uiuc.edu ] presented his well-known
claims of massive nuclear transmutations in plated 1 mm plastic
beads, coated with Ni, Pd, or, in Run # 15, Ti, a metal not
previously publicly mentioned to my knowledge, in weeks of
electrolyis in light water.  These two dozen runs were
done in 1996.

Ed Storms [ storms2 ix.netcom.com ] read a report
by Thomas Claytor [ claytor lanl.gov, 505-667-6216 ] and four others
on long on-going, underfunded convincing steady production of helium
from high-voltage plasma discharge on Pd alloys in low-pressure
deuterium. His summary chart of dozens of Pd alloys was dated 4/98.

Melvin H. Miles [ melmiles ridgecrest.ca.us, milesmh@navair.navy.mil,
760-939-1652w, 760-371-1766h ], again reported data from runs in 1993
and 1994 at China Lake that showed helium and excess heat from
electrolysis with Pd and heavy water: 28 of 94 runs had excess heat.
About 10E11 atoms of He/sec-W were produced with Pd alloy with .75% B.

Our distinguished and amiable chairperson was John Bockris
[ bockris myriad.net ], who mentioned that Hideo Kozima is publishing
a 350-page book, reviewing the field in the light of his
trapped cold neutron theory [ sphkoji sci.shizuoka.ac.jp ].

Robert L. Park, a notable CF critic, was present [ opa aps.org ].

I reckon I'll have to tote my four cubic feet of CF materials back
into my house from my Tuffs shed.  I was glad to be able to donate
to Toby Grotz of Craig, CO [ wireless cmn.net ] some high voltage
capacitors and transformers, an oscilloscope, and a paper strip
chart recorder (donated to me in 1996 by Mark Hugo).   Toby has
a mass spectrometer running, and, given some funding, could
quickly run all kinds of experiments

The meeting included about 130 members of the SSE, which has 
747 members, live, kicking, and dues paid.  Membership is $ 75,
while Associate status, open to all, is $ 55.  
www.scientificexploration.org   hwf virginia.edu

The bi-annual Journal of Scientific Exploration is
www.jse.com   sims jse.com   650-593-8581  .

Many reports were so anomalous that speaker after speaker would
scratch their heads, as they started to speak, "Well, this is the
first time, I've been the conservative one at a meeting!"

Jane Robb described the amazingly specialized injection gun
structure of a soil fungus.

Lee Pulos showed slides of Thomaz Gren Morton of Brazil,
transforming in fifteen minutes a bowl of broken unfertilized eggs
into live, damp chicks.

Larry Dossey [ Ldossey ix.netcom.com ] summarized ongoing
successful studies proving the reality of prayer healing at Duke
University, while Bill Bengston [ bengston aol.com ]
showed slides of mice being healed of cancer by psychic work in
many experiments by briefly trained, skeptical students.

[ Sicher F, Targ E, Moore D 2nd, Smith HS.  A randomized
double-blind study of the effect of distant healing in a population
with advanced AIDS. Report of a small scale study.
West J Med. 1998 Dec; 169(6): 356-63.
Geraldine Brush Cancer Research Institute,
California Pacific Medical Center, San Francisco, USA.   Abstract:
Various forms of distant healing (DH), including prayer and "psychic
healing," are widely practiced, but insufficient formal research has
been done to indicate whether such efforts actually affect health.
We report on a double-blind randomized trial of DH in 40 patients with
advanced AIDS. Subjects were pair-matched for age, CD4+ count, and
number of AIDS-defining illnesses and randomly selected to either 10
weeks of DH treatment or a control group. DH treatment was performed
by self-identified healers representing many different healing and
spiritual traditions. Healers were located throughout the United
States during the study, and subjects and healers never met. Subjects
were assessed by psychometric testing and blood draw at enrollment
and followed for 6 months. At 6 months, a blind medical chart review
found that treatment subjects acquired significantly fewer new
AIDS-defining illnesses (0.1 versus 0.6 per patient, P = 0.04), had
lower illness severity (severity score 0.8 versus 2.65, P = 0.03),
and required significantly fewer doctor visits (9.2 versus 13.0,
P = 0.01), fewer hospitalizations (0.15 versus 0.6, P = 0.04),
and fewer days of hospitalization (0.5 versus 3.4, P = 0.04).
Treated subjects also showed significantly improved mood compared with
controls (Profile of Mood States score -26 versus 14, P = 0.02). There
were no significant differences in CD4+ counts. These data support the
possibility of a DH effect in AIDS and suggest the value of
further research. ]

Walter E. Dibble, Jr. showed copious graphs of pH and temperature
changes
induced for weeks in pure water by simple electronic black boxes,
previously charged with "intention" by a group of psychics far away.

John Hotchin [ 74543.433 compuserve.com ] gave a relatively prosaic
account of his own many precognitive dreams.

George Schwartz [ 6schwartz ccit.arizona.edu ] showed a video of
five mediums getting the same results with a single subject on the
same day.

H. Atmanspacer [ haa igpp.de ] showed that a subtle analysis could
sensitively prove non-randomess in the data from random number
generators, in many PK runs.

J-J Velasco described 201 cases in which radar and visual
observations of UFOs gave largely the same results.

David Jacobs [ djacobs temple.edu ] and John Mack [PEER1492@aol.com ]
each presented summaries of years of clinical work with abductees,
showing that the data had features, such as internal consistency, that
ruled out prosaic dismissals.

Jacques Benveniste [ jbenveniste digibio.com ] gave many recent studies
on recording 7 seconds of digital signals at audio frequences from a
coil surrounding some water with a dissolved drug, and then playing
the signal through a coil surrounding another vial of pure water,
far way in time and space, whereupon the "imprinted" water would
exhibit the characteristic specific drug activity on living cells.
[He and Brian Josephson, the Nobel Prize winner, are now negotiating
with James Randi [ JamesRandi compuserve.com ] to agree on a protocol
for an attempt at his famous million-dollar prize.]

A refreshing change of pace was given by two negative reports: 
young Matthew Salganik [ msalganik yahoo.com ] gave an outstandingly
lucid and reasonable report of an attempt at testing if a world event
would produce a "field effect" on 11 random number generators, while
Imants Baruss failed with "Intrumental Transcommunication"-- electronic 
contact with the dead.

Someone wrote on the blackboard that theory states that a cubic
angstrom of space contains as much intrinsic zero point fluctuation
energy as all visible matter within the 20 billion light years
of the observable universe-- to me this suggestsldo sufficient wiggle
room for "more wonders in earth and heaven, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy, Horatio."

Brian O'Leary [ oleary maiu.net ], an ex-astronaut and geologist
with 100 published papers, mentioned three paradigm popping events
in his life: 1979, his own success at doing remote viewing in an
experiment; 1980, healing his own "permanently damaged" left knee
with two months of visualization; 1981, a near-death-experience from
a car crash.  He later visited Thomaz Green Morton, among others.

As one,  Rich Murray  Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103  505-920.6130 cellular VoiceStream
rmforall earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmforall

Subject: Message from Jacques Benveniste
  Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 05:41:02 -0700
 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
        Date: Tue, 18 May 99 08:39:28 -0000
        From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
    Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
          To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>

Vortexians:

I am passing this on from Dr. Truzzi. I had seen the Time Magazine
article on Benveniste. It was in either this or the last issue. Don't
have it at my finger tips. Perhaps someone else will post it.

Gene Mallove

Dr. Benveniste has asked me to help him post this as widely as possible.
So here it is. --Marcello Truzzi
---------
A warning to all those involved in the APS trial:

I read in WHAT'S NEW by Robert L. Park Friday, 14 May 99 Washington, DC
the following sentence:

"3. THE CHALLENGE: HOMEOPATHY VIA THE INTERNET. As revealed by Time
Magazine this week, I have been in discussions with Brian Josephson
(1973 Nobel Prize in Physics) over a protocol for a proposed
double-blind trial of the claims of French homeopathist Jacques
Benveniste."

Well, my position is utterly simple: I shall immediately cut all
relationship with anybody calling me an "homeopathist". It is not that
I consider this as derogatory; it is that this "innocent" wording is in
fact a manipulation aimed at confining our research into a ghetto, that
of "alternative science". Anybody willing to be informed and abiding by
the elementary rules of scientific or press ethics should know, print
and possibly comment what is on our website: we record and transfer the
molecular signal, whatever the concentration of the source. What Leon
Jaroff printed in Time Magazine reflects Leon Jaroff's obsessions and
has nothing to do with informed and objective journalism. The surprise
is that a magazine of the reputation of Time opens its columns to such a
gross disfiguration.

The experiment with the APS (which is a far cry from what is described
by RL Park, who seems to never bother to check its sources) shall bear
on the "transmission to a biological system of a recorded specific
biological signal". Period. A signal is a signal is a signal. Anybody
calling it homeo-, allo-, or whathaveyouo-pathic, simply shows his/her
inability to comprehend the fundamentals of this research.

A bon entendeur, salut!

J. Benveniste, MD, Ancien Interne des Hôpitaux de Paris; Ancien Chef de
Clinique (Endocrinology, Intensive care); Directeur de Recherche (I)
à L'INSERM; Médaille d'Argent du CNRS for the discovery of
Platelet-Activating Factor; member, American Association of
Immunologists (1974); Chevalier de l'Ordre du Mérite.

------------------------------------------
PLEASE NOTE MODIFIED E-MAIL ADDRESS BELOW
------------------------------------------
Dr. Jacques Benveniste, Laboratoire de Biologie Numérique
Digital Biology Laboratory, 32, rue des Carnets, F-92140 Clamart
Tel : +33 (0)1 46 01 58 40 Fax : +33 (0)1 46 31 02 77
GSM : +33(0)6 09 68 25 01
<http://www.digibio.com> See also <http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10>
<mailto: jbenveniste digibio.com>
---------------------------------

Subject:  Reminder/Benvinste Update
   Date:  Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:18:23 GMT
   From:  James Randi --- Wizard <JREFInfo ssr.com>
     To:  broadcast-JREFInfo ssr.com

For USA/Canada readers.....

Tonight-- Thursday -- ABC-TV will run an updated repeat of "The Power
of Belief" special hosted by John Stossel.  At 10 p.m. in most areas,
but consult your local listings.

The Fox News Channel show that ran over last weekend will be repeated
too, but air date not yet announced.  We'll keep you updated.

Several of our applicants for the million-dollar prize have been
proposed to another major TV show for testing on their network.  It's
been pretty well narrowed down to one confident applicant, and we'll
notify you when that's scheduled.

The student awardees have now been notified, and we're awaiting
acceptance letters and photos for posting on the web page.

Finally, re the Josephson/Benveniste/APS situation: You will recall
that Nobel laureate Brian Josephson has challenged the American
Physical Society to back a scientific test of homeopathy by means of
the claims made by Jacques Benveniste-- the only two-time winner of
Harvard University's "Ignobel Prize" for pseudoscience.  The JREF has
enthusiastically cheered on APS's Bob Park, and has agreed that should
the homeopaths succeed in this simple test, that would serve as the
preliminary test of the million-dollar prize we offer.  As expected,
the two scientists who support belief in homeopathy have disdained
such crass commercialism, but we have maintained our generous offer.
Now it appears that Professor Josephson, as we predicted, is puzzled
at Benveniste's reluctance to perform the test.  Dr. Benveniste runs
on about the need for hundreds of guinea pig or rat hearts needed to
perform an "in vivo" test, while Josephson persists in his conviction
that a simple, inexpensive, "in vitro" analysis should be used, as
Benveniste's discoveries seemed to have promised.  Benveniste now
mumbles that further refinement of his test is needed, and that in any
case he is no longer interested in biological tests, but only in the
physics principles involved.  Beleagured Bob Park is consulting in
person-- in vivo! -- with Benveniste at about the time you'll be
reading this, and will doubtless be even more confounded by what he
will be told.  We had warned him that this would be a bumpy ride, with
no seat belts available.  Meanwhile, an amateur applicant for the
prize who we've put on "hold" until this matter is resolved, is all
a-twitter over the fact that the Nobel laureate has been in personal
touch with him through e-mail, and a new angle-- some recent
yeast-cell test of homeopathy -- has been introduced.  My, my, how the
plot thickens!

It's a pretty interesting situation.  A prominent winner in England of
the Nobel Prize has taken up the case for a prominent (two-time!)
winner in France of the Ignobel Prize, and challenged a prominent
organization in the USA-- the American Physical Society -- to test a
prominent version of quackery known as homeopathy, while a prominent
international award-- the Pigasus Prize -- stands waiting to be
claimed.  And it's proving VERY difficult for us to give away this
money!

Stay tuned.  James Randi.

[We've been busily sending out copies of the "Document" offered by the
JREF.  The response was greater than we'd anticipated, but we're staying
on top of it.  I'm personally grateful that so many are interested.]

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Report by Jed Rothwell [ JedRothwell infinite-energy.com ]
4.26.98 from ICCF-7:

L. C. Case: Gas loading with commercial hydrogenation catalyst
consisting of ~1% palladium on activated carbon. The cell must be
maintained at a temperature between 150 and 250 deg C, no higher or
lower. It is first loaded with hydrogen, which cleans the catalyst and
purges oxygen. It is then evacuated and loaded with deuterium. The
temperature rises 5 to 30 deg C over the baseline temperature
established with hydrogen, indicating 10 to 30 watts of excess heat.
The excess heat lasts for weeks. He has never let it run indefinitely.
He quenches the heat by letting the cell cool. The experiment has been
repeated dozens of times successfully. Cravens commented that the
treatment with hydrogen may be important. It serves as a null run and it
cleans the catalyst. Someone asked Case whether the hydrogen blanks
might be producing heat. He responded that he would have no way of
telling; he only knows that deuterium is much warmer. (He ignores
differences less than 5 deg C.) I was suspicious that this might be an
artifact of the different conduction coefficients of deuterium and
hydrogen. Such problems were reported by Mizuno, Oriani and others
working with gas calorimeters. I asked Case about the position of the
thermocouples, gas pressure, calibration techniques and the cell wall
temperature. I am satisfied this type of artifact is not a factor.

In his conference summation, McKubre cited this as one of the most
significant papers, because Case appears to have developed a 100%
reproducible process, and because he is willing to publish all details
about experiment. Mallove and I agree that this may be the most
important experiment in cold fusion. At present, Case uses an
uninsulated steel cell which he holds at the critical temperature with
an electric heater. We advised him to move the cell to an insulated
container, perhaps a Dewar, and to turn off the electric heater once the
reaction begins. If this is a genuine cold fusion excess heat reaction,
the cell should self-heat and remain hot indefinitely with no input,
probably for years. This test would do away with the need for
calorimetry and resolve all doubts about the existence of the excess
heat.

Case is a retired chemical engineer who has decades of experience
working with these catalysts. Beginning in 1989, he scoured the catalogs
and requested sample materials from several chemical companies. He
tested hundreds of samples at different temperatures and pressures, in
an Edisonian search for one that would rapidly absorb deuterium and
develop excess heat reliably. He finally found a particular type of
catalyst that is available from three suppliers. He has filed for an
international patent, which requires that all details be revealed even
before the patent is granted. I do not have the patent number or the
catalog part numbers, but I will get them soon. Case has agreed to bring
his cell to Mallove's laboratory in Bow, New Hampshire next Thursday for
independent verification. The materials in this cell simple and cheap.
The chemical companies can supply tons of the catalyst, and only 50 to
100 grams of the catalyst is need for each small cell, so this would
make an ideal demonstration cell. If we determine it works, we hope to
license the device, manufacture and sell hundreds of demonstration kits
within one month. We move fast here at Infinite Energy!

Case took samples to Prague where he rented the use of a nuclear
research laboratory to search for neutrons during the heat events, but
after extensive research he determined there are none. Case took a cell
that had run for weeks to Oak Ridge. They found 100 ppm helium in the
used gas, and no significant helium in the unused gas or catalyst
material.

Scott Little 4.28.98 [ little eden.com, Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres
Little, 1406 Old Wagon Road, Austin TX 78746  512-328-4071
Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX) ]:
I spoke with Dr. Case this morning and got all the picky details of his
preferred protocol.  He also gave me the catalog number, G-75E, of the
Pd-on-carbon catalyst from United Catalysts that has worked best in his
experiments.  I am trying to get some from them now.

Meanwhile, we already have some 1% Pd on carbon catalyst on hand and Dr.
Case indicated that it would probably suffice to see the effect.

Scott Little 4.29.99:

I spoke with Doug Perkins of United Catalysts today (502-634-7241) and
ordered a 100 cc "sample" of G-75E catalyst for $300.  It will be here
in a couple of days.  Doug is the guy that Case has been working with
over the last 2 years and he is fairly well convinced that Case is onto
a genuine effect.

G-75D catalyst -- 0.4% Pd activated carbon catalyst from:
United Catalysts, Inc. (attn: Douglas Perkins, 502-634-7241)
PO Box 32370  Louisville, KY 40232

Jed Rothwell 5.1.98:
Over 250 deg C because the catalyst self-destructs and the reaction
halts abruptly. It is a good fail safe mechanism.

Mallove 5.2.99:
I have scanned Dr. Leslie Case's issued PCT notice for Catalytic
Fusion, having obtained this public document from Derwent in Virginia. 
Issue #19 of Infinite Energy Magazine will include this material, plus
lots more concerning this new development by Dr. Case.  This posting
follows my earlier posting of a replication demonstration of the process
by Dr. Case here at Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. on April 30, 1998.

Incidentally, I looked up Leslie Case in my MIT Alumni register. He has
these MIT degrees: SB Chemical Engineering (1952); SB Industrial
Management; SM Chemical Engineering Practice; Sc.D. Chemical
Engineering

Best, Gene Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine  Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302  Phone: 603-228-4516
Fax:   603-224-5975  editor infinite-energy.com
www.infinite-energy.com  603-224-5975
Scott Little 5.19.98:

Take a look at:
http://www.eden.com/~little/case/run5.html

Executive Summary:
Our batting average is still .000 and this was with Dr Case's own
catalyst!

Scott Little 5.28.99:
Take a quick look at:
http://www.eden.com/~little/case/run7.html

It shows that the catalyst is not required for the thermal oscillations
I observed in Run 5 & 6.

I have spoken to Dr. Case again and he continues to emphasize the need
for near-complete replacement of the H2 on the catalyst with D2 in order
to see his effect.  Run 8 will attempt to accomplish this.  

Run 8 is presently underway with the 20 grams of G75-D catalyst that
Case sent me in the chamber.  Since Case thinks its important to get rid
of all the H2, I did not start this run with H2 at all.  Instead, I
started right off with D2. In my system, the water-flow calorimetry
provides an absolute measure of the heat released by the experiment.
I do not need to compare the temperature of the catalyst-H2 mixture to
the temperature of the catalyst-D2 mixture as Case does.

Run 8 has been underway for about 7 hours now and the 4th charge of D2
is in the chamber.  I leave the chamber under high vacuum for 10
minutes (extra long) between charges to help remove adsorbed H2 from
the catalyst surface.  Thus far there is not even the slightest hint of
excess heat.  My calorimetry is working well enough that 1 watt of real
excess heat would make an unmistakably positive signal.  Even 1/2 watt
would get my attention.

I will leave Run 8 "cooking" overnight and resume the evac-refill cycles
tomorrow.  

Case's system is 13 times larger than mine in volume.  In his procedure,
the residual H2 left on the catalyst is trapped in the system when he
fills the chamber with D2.  It's just the larger volume of D2 that
serves to mostly replace the H2 on the catalyst with D2.  In my present
situation, I'm completely evacuating the chamber between each filling
of D2 so I REMOVE the H2 that comes off and replace it with PURE D2 for
the next cycle.  

Does anybody want to venture a guess as to how many of my cycles would
be equivalent to Case's procedure?  Seems like ~8 flushes should get my
catalyst to have less H2 than his, no?

Horace:  For Run 8, I installed a temperature sensor on the bulkhead
that forms the ceiling of my chamber.  It reads about 95C when the
catalyst is 180C.  In other words, I have succeeded in creating a
significant temperature gradient in my chamber, as Case surely has in
his. All Vorts:  I appreciate the discussion that has occurred.  I'm
reading and considering everything.
Stay tuned for Run 8!

Jed Rothwell 3.26.99:
3. Replications of the Case experiment, which are mainly been performed
by Russ George[ rgeorege hooked.net ] and Fran Tanzella
[fran_tanzella qm.sri.com ], under the guidance of Les Case.

This was one of the most important papers ever presented in this field.
Unfortunately, the data from this experiment appears in the second
volume describing EPRI's cold fusion research, and this publication
costs $20,000. (The book is free to members EPRI, which is a consortium
of electric power companies.) It is a terrible shame that these
spectacular results are effectively kept secret behind this $20,000
barrier.

Morrison asked why the second experiment has not been repeated. McKubre
explained that the data shown represents five man years of work and a
huge amount of money, so he is looking for cheaper "cleverer" ways to
do it. He thinks the Case experiments fit this description, and he said
they are "almost ready for prime time," meaning he is nearly ready to
present them. He also intends to check six samples from the Case cell
for helium-3.

Since Russ George was in attendance, McKubre stepped aside and George
briefly described replications of the Case cell replications. In this
experiment, palladium on carbon catalysts are exposed to deuterium gas.
Excess heat and helium are detected. George first showed a graph
demonstrating the resolution of their on-line mass spectrometer, which
clearly separates peaks for helium-4 and deuterium. Then he showed two
helium production curves in one graph. Two cells were run side by side,
one with hydrogen, the other with deuterium gas. The hydrogen sample did
not produce excess heat or significant helium. The deuterium sample
produced steady excess heat and a steady increase in helium
concentration up to 11 ppm for 28 days, when experiment was terminated.
This is far above atmospheric concentration, 5.2 ppm. Contamination is
ruled out, because a leak could only reduce the level of helium. This
experiment is now being reproduced at SRI and two other laboratories.
George said it is slow and difficult work.

Akari Kawasaki 4.7.99 [ aki ix.netcom.com ]:
The way "Palladium Electrochemistry" was chaired by Scott Chubb was
"efficient". Jed made a nice report on the session. I just have a
little difference on the way Russ George was given a chance to report
on his successful Case replication experiment. This was buttressed by
reviewing the videotape of the session. As an aside, I was surprised
to see Douglas Morrison in attendance for this small session, as
contrasted with the ICCF's that he has been attending. Regardless of
his seeming position, I later congratulated him as being a member of
the 'Loyal Opposition' as he sat later by himself with some coffee and
paper. This is healthy as contrasted with activities reported by Jed
of Park, Zimmerman, Huizenga, et al on Monday. The session was started
by Scott Chubb at 14:00. Since this was the last session to be held in
that room, Scott Chubb remarked that we had essentially until 17:00
for ourselves. However, the 'formal' presentations were kept to a timed
10 minutes (+-) for each presentation.  In the last of his three-part
presentation by McKubre, his 'time' allotment ran out, so he did not
give the Case replication report. At the start of his presentation, he
flashed a viewgraph cover of the replication with Tanzella, George, and
Case listed as co-authors (and I presume, McKubre too since he was
reporting and was listed in an earlier abstract of his presentation
with his name and Tanzella as authors, but without George or Case).
Then, after Mckubre's presentation was cut because of the 'time limit',
Scott Chubb recognized Russ George in the back and invited him to come
foward and fill out the Case replication report. (Not many expected
George to be present). But as Russ George was coming foward, Chubb
closed the 'formal' session (after 15:00) and there were some talk of
taking a break before hearing George. Under the circumstances, George
made a very 'quickie' presentation (about 5 minutes) with a viewgraph
presentation of the helium results.  Thereafter, since the session was
already closed, followed loose active discussions on the state of CF as
mentioned by Jed.  Now, I later noticed that George's graph was higher
than the helium concentration he mentioned to me earlier. He agreed that
it was. It was a later graph.

Russ George has posted at his Saturna Technologies website his full
presentation of the Case replication effort conducted in July, 1998 with
graphs and picutres with credits distributed properly. You can see his
cells used in the experiment. It is different than what Case
constructed.  This was what was to be presented at the APS if given
proper opportunity and time rather then the truncated one. I think a
viewing and reading of his post is called for by the Vortex membership
and others.  <<http://rsrch.com/saturna/APSpapers_1998_1999.htm>>

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Subject: Murray on the road to Damascus: Vysotskii: Mn to Fe in bacteria 6.7.99
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June 7, 1999   Hello Gene Mallove,  Sure, you're welcome to edit and
publish my letter in IE.  My main fantasy fear at this point is that
some fanatic has secretly rigged the two experiments by McKubre to
produce spurious results-- now, that is really unlikely.  Another
possibility is some form of PK, but PK that produces a linear rise for
30 days would be a bigger miracle than cold fusion.

I am also very impressed by a brief summary in IE by Ed Storms of
"Experimental Discovery of Phenomenon of Low-Energy Nuclear 
Transmutation (Mn-55 = Fe-57) in Growing Biological Cultures."
Vysotskii, Vladimir I; Kornilova AA; Samoyloylenko II, The Sixth
International Conference on Cold Fusion, Progress in New Hydrogen
Energy (Ed., M. Okamoto) Oct.13-18, 1996, Hokkaido, Japan, Vol. 2,
page 687, ibid., Infinite Energy 2(10), 1996, 63,
Edmund Storms, "Cold Fusion Revisited," Infinite Energy 21, 1998,
p. 23.  They used Mossbauer spectroscopy, an exact, specific, and
noninvasive technique, to prove the real-time production of Fe-57 by
yeast and bacteria, adapted to growth in D2O: 1.9+-0.5 x 10E-8 atoms
Fe-57 per sec per atoms Mn-55.
It makes sense to me that bacteria, which can live in niches from
nuclear reactor coolant to boiling water to extreme acid or alkaline
to miles deep in rock, would also either use D2O as a nuclear fuel or
to produce needed elements, or be able to use transmutation to
eliminate it as a unwanted toxin.
[ Vysotskii VI = trivee topaz.kiev.ua ? ]
Is this research continuing?

Marsha H. Adams [ timeres pacbeu.net ] of Time Research, Inc. in her
report, "Physical Anomalies at Sacred Sites," measured radon
radiation levels as much as tenfold over adjacent backgrounds, and
claimed that enough radon gas can accumulate in deep canyons and
caves to impair breathing, causing hypoxia and altered states of
consciousness.  [As a shaman in a past life in the Stone Age, I am
naturally very concerned about this.]  Bacteria in radon saturated
water in a cave might well evolve to transmute the various decay
products of radium.  Are there isotopic anomalies in radium
springs?

Is Leslie C. Case still at 14 Lockeland Road, Winchester, MA 01890?

As one, Rich Murray

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Subject: SSE: McKubre: heat & helium in Case cell: Benveniste: Randi: Case posts 
 6.7.99
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June 7, 1999   Hello,   I am very pleased to tell of a report by Mike
McKubre [ mike_mckubre qm.sri.com ] of Stanford Research Institute
on on-going research on Les Case's cell.

It uses a commercial porous carbon catalyst, coated with palladium,
to catalyze D2 gas at 3 atm into helium, producing steady heat
output and a linear rise of helium to almost 11 ppm, twice
the background of 5.2 ppm, from day 5 to 30 of the run.  The sealed 50
cc metal cell is connected directly to a highly sensitive mass
spectrometer, well able to totally separate out the D2 peak from the
helium peak.  A control run with H2 produced absolutely no effects.
The heat output of about .5 to 1.0 W was compatible with the reaction:
2 D -> 4-He + 24 Mev. About a dozen Case cells have been run, with a
success rate of about one in two or three.  There are some tricks in
getting it to work: the catalyst has to be cleaned and kept clean.

The fact that the cells can not always be made to work increases the
credibility of the report in my eyes, as I would expect a simple
artifact to occur every time, since the output helium rises in a 
simple, untroubled line.  My meager wits are unable to imagine any
applicable artifact.  Therefore, I expect this breakthrough success
to continue at SRI, and to be speedily replicated by other labs.
In addition, since in physics, the basic rule is that what is not
prohibited is mandatory, then we must give much greater credance to
the vast body of reports of the many varieties of cold fusion in the
last ten years.  The seedling has not expired, and deserves copious
watering.  Without being specific, McKubre said that theoretical
progress was being made.

McKubre, lucid, calm, confident, pleased, said that the evidence
for excess heat was "essentially overwhelming," and told me, "Les
Case is an incredible man."

McKubre also reported successful production of excess heat with a
palladium & heavy water electrolytic cell.

McKubre spoke at 4:40 PM Thursday, June 3, 1999, at the Society
for Scientific Exploration 18th Annual Meeting, Northrup Hall,
University of New Mexico, Albuquerque, June 3-5.  The first
afternoon session was for cold fusion.  George Miley of the
Low Energy Nuclear Reactions Lab at University of Illinois at
Urbana-Champaign [ gmiley uiuc.edu ] presented his well-known
claims of massive nuclear transmutations in plated 1 mm plastic
beads, coated with Ni, Pd, or, in Run # 15, Ti, a metal not
previously publicly mentioned to my knowledge, in weeks of
electrolyis in light water.  These two dozen runs were
done in 1996.

Ed Storms [ storms2 ix.netcom.com ] read a report
by Thomas Claytor [ claytor lanl.gov, 505-667-6216 ] and four others
on long on-going, underfunded convincing steady production of helium
from high-voltage plasma discharge on Pd alloys in low-pressure
deuterium. His summary chart of dozens of Pd alloys was dated 4/98.

Melvin H. Miles [ melmiles ridgecrest.ca.us, milesmh@navair.navy.mil,
760-939-1652w, 760-371-1766h ], again reported data from runs in 1993
and 1994 at China Lake that showed helium and excess heat from
electrolysis with Pd and heavy water: 28 of 94 runs had excess heat.
About 10E11 atoms of He/sec-W were produced with Pd alloy with .75% B.

Our distinguished and amiable chairperson was John Bockris
[ bockris myriad.net ], who mentioned that Hideo Kozima is publishing
a 350-page book, reviewing the field in the light of his
trapped cold neutron theory [ sphkoji sci.shizuoka.ac.jp ].

Robert L. Park, a notable CF critic, was present [ opa aps.org ].

I reckon I'll have to tote my four cubic feet of CF materials back
into my house from my Tuffs shed.  I was glad to be able to donate
to Toby Grotz of Craig, CO [ wireless cmn.net ] some high voltage
capacitors and transformers, an oscilloscope, and a paper strip
chart recorder (donated to me in 1996 by Mark Hugo).   Toby has
a mass spectrometer running, and, given some funding, could
quickly run all kinds of experiments

The meeting included about 130 members of the SSE, which has 
747 members, live, kicking, and dues paid.  Membership is $ 75,
while Associate status, open to all, is $ 55.  
www.scientificexploration.org   hwf virginia.edu

The bi-annual Journal of Scientific Exploration is
www.jse.com   sims jse.com   650-593-8581  .

Many reports were so anomalous that speaker after speaker would
scratch their heads, as they started to speak, "Well, this is the
first time, I've been the conservative one at a meeting!"

Jane Robb described the amazingly specialized injection gun
structure of a soil fungus.

Lee Pulos showed slides of Thomaz Gren Morton of Brazil,
transforming in fifteen minutes a bowl of broken unfertilized eggs
into live, damp chicks.

Larry Dossey [ Ldossey ix.netcom.com ] summarized ongoing
successful studies proving the reality of prayer healing at Duke
University, while Bill Bengston [ bengston aol.com ]
showed slides of mice being healed of cancer by psychic work in
many experiments by briefly trained, skeptical students.

[ Sicher F, Targ E, Moore D 2nd, Smith HS.  A randomized
double-blind study of the effect of distant healing in a population
with advanced AIDS. Report of a small scale study.
West J Med. 1998 Dec; 169(6): 356-63.
Geraldine Brush Cancer Research Institute,
California Pacific Medical Center, San Francisco, USA.   Abstract:
Various forms of distant healing (DH), including prayer and "psychic
healing," are widely practiced, but insufficient formal research has
been done to indicate whether such efforts actually affect health.
We report on a double-blind randomized trial of DH in 40 patients with
advanced AIDS. Subjects were pair-matched for age, CD4+ count, and
number of AIDS-defining illnesses and randomly selected to either 10
weeks of DH treatment or a control group. DH treatment was performed
by self-identified healers representing many different healing and
spiritual traditions. Healers were located throughout the United
States during the study, and subjects and healers never met. Subjects
were assessed by psychometric testing and blood draw at enrollment
and followed for 6 months. At 6 months, a blind medical chart review
found that treatment subjects acquired significantly fewer new
AIDS-defining illnesses (0.1 versus 0.6 per patient, P = 0.04), had
lower illness severity (severity score 0.8 versus 2.65, P = 0.03),
and required significantly fewer doctor visits (9.2 versus 13.0,
P = 0.01), fewer hospitalizations (0.15 versus 0.6, P = 0.04),
and fewer days of hospitalization (0.5 versus 3.4, P = 0.04).
Treated subjects also showed significantly improved mood compared with
controls (Profile of Mood States score -26 versus 14, P = 0.02). There
were no significant differences in CD4+ counts. These data support the
possibility of a DH effect in AIDS and suggest the value of
further research. ]

Walter E. Dibble, Jr. showed copious graphs of pH and temperature
changes
induced for weeks in pure water by simple electronic black boxes,
previously charged with "intention" by a group of psychics far away.

John Hotchin [ 74543.433 compuserve.com ] gave a relatively prosaic
account of his own many precognitive dreams.

George Schwartz [ 6schwartz ccit.arizona.edu ] showed a video of
five mediums getting the same results with a single subject on the
same day.

H. Atmanspacer [ haa igpp.de ] showed that a subtle analysis could
sensitively prove non-randomess in the data from random number
generators, in many PK runs.

J-J Velasco described 201 cases in which radar and visual
observations of UFOs gave largely the same results.

David Jacobs [ djacobs temple.edu ] and John Mack [PEER1492@aol.com ]
each presented summaries of years of clinical work with abductees,
showing that the data had features, such as internal consistency, that
ruled out prosaic dismissals.

Jacques Benveniste [ jbenveniste digibio.com ] gave many recent studies
on recording 7 seconds of digital signals at audio frequences from a
coil surrounding some water with a dissolved drug, and then playing
the signal through a coil surrounding another vial of pure water,
far way in time and space, whereupon the "imprinted" water would
exhibit the characteristic specific drug activity on living cells.
[He and Brian Josephson, the Nobel Prize winner, are now negotiating
with James Randi [ JamesRandi compuserve.com ] to agree on a protocol
for an attempt at his famous million-dollar prize.]

A refreshing change of pace was given by two negative reports: 
young Matthew Salganik [ msalganik yahoo.com ] gave an outstandingly
lucid and reasonable report of an attempt at testing if a world event
would produce a "field effect" on 11 random number generators, while
Imants Baruss failed with "Intrumental Transcommunication"-- electronic 
contact with the dead.

Someone wrote on the blackboard that theory states that a cubic
angstrom of space contains as much intrinsic zero point fluctuation
energy as all visible matter within the 20 billion light years
of the observable universe-- to me this suggestsldo sufficient wiggle
room for "more wonders in earth and heaven, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy, Horatio."

Brian O'Leary [ oleary maiu.net ], an ex-astronaut and geologist
with 100 published papers, mentioned three paradigm popping events
in his life: 1979, his own success at doing remote viewing in an
experiment; 1980, healing his own "permanently damaged" left knee
with two months of visualization; 1981, a near-death-experience from
a car crash.  He later visited Thomaz Green Morton, among others.

As one,  Rich Murray  Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103  505-920.6130 cellular VoiceStream
rmforall earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmforall

Subject: Message from Jacques Benveniste
  Resent-Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 05:41:02 -0700
 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
        Date: Tue, 18 May 99 08:39:28 -0000
        From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
    Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
          To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>

Vortexians:

I am passing this on from Dr. Truzzi. I had seen the Time Magazine
article on Benveniste. It was in either this or the last issue. Don't
have it at my finger tips. Perhaps someone else will post it.

Gene Mallove

Dr. Benveniste has asked me to help him post this as widely as possible.
So here it is. --Marcello Truzzi
---------
A warning to all those involved in the APS trial:

I read in WHAT'S NEW by Robert L. Park Friday, 14 May 99 Washington, DC
the following sentence:

"3. THE CHALLENGE: HOMEOPATHY VIA THE INTERNET. As revealed by Time
Magazine this week, I have been in discussions with Brian Josephson
(1973 Nobel Prize in Physics) over a protocol for a proposed
double-blind trial of the claims of French homeopathist Jacques
Benveniste."

Well, my position is utterly simple: I shall immediately cut all
relationship with anybody calling me an "homeopathist". It is not that
I consider this as derogatory; it is that this "innocent" wording is in
fact a manipulation aimed at confining our research into a ghetto, that
of "alternative science". Anybody willing to be informed and abiding by
the elementary rules of scientific or press ethics should know, print
and possibly comment what is on our website: we record and transfer the
molecular signal, whatever the concentration of the source. What Leon
Jaroff printed in Time Magazine reflects Leon Jaroff's obsessions and
has nothing to do with informed and objective journalism. The surprise
is that a magazine of the reputation of Time opens its columns to such a
gross disfiguration.

The experiment with the APS (which is a far cry from what is described
by RL Park, who seems to never bother to check its sources) shall bear
on the "transmission to a biological system of a recorded specific
biological signal". Period. A signal is a signal is a signal. Anybody
calling it homeo-, allo-, or whathaveyouo-pathic, simply shows his/her
inability to comprehend the fundamentals of this research.

A bon entendeur, salut!

J. Benveniste, MD, Ancien Interne des Hôpitaux de Paris; Ancien Chef de
Clinique (Endocrinology, Intensive care); Directeur de Recherche (I)
à L'INSERM; Médaille d'Argent du CNRS for the discovery of
Platelet-Activating Factor; member, American Association of
Immunologists (1974); Chevalier de l'Ordre du Mérite.

------------------------------------------
PLEASE NOTE MODIFIED E-MAIL ADDRESS BELOW
------------------------------------------
Dr. Jacques Benveniste, Laboratoire de Biologie Numérique
Digital Biology Laboratory, 32, rue des Carnets, F-92140 Clamart
Tel : +33 (0)1 46 01 58 40 Fax : +33 (0)1 46 31 02 77
GSM : +33(0)6 09 68 25 01
<http://www.digibio.com> See also <http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10>
<mailto: jbenveniste digibio.com>
---------------------------------

Subject:  Reminder/Benvinste Update
   Date:  Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:18:23 GMT
   From:  James Randi --- Wizard <JREFInfo ssr.com>
     To:  broadcast-JREFInfo ssr.com

For USA/Canada readers.....

Tonight-- Thursday -- ABC-TV will run an updated repeat of "The Power
of Belief" special hosted by John Stossel.  At 10 p.m. in most areas,
but consult your local listings.

The Fox News Channel show that ran over last weekend will be repeated
too, but air date not yet announced.  We'll keep you updated.

Several of our applicants for the million-dollar prize have been
proposed to another major TV show for testing on their network.  It's
been pretty well narrowed down to one confident applicant, and we'll
notify you when that's scheduled.

The student awardees have now been notified, and we're awaiting
acceptance letters and photos for posting on the web page.

Finally, re the Josephson/Benveniste/APS situation: You will recall
that Nobel laureate Brian Josephson has challenged the American
Physical Society to back a scientific test of homeopathy by means of
the claims made by Jacques Benveniste-- the only two-time winner of
Harvard University's "Ignobel Prize" for pseudoscience.  The JREF has
enthusiastically cheered on APS's Bob Park, and has agreed that should
the homeopaths succeed in this simple test, that would serve as the
preliminary test of the million-dollar prize we offer.  As expected,
the two scientists who support belief in homeopathy have disdained
such crass commercialism, but we have maintained our generous offer.
Now it appears that Professor Josephson, as we predicted, is puzzled
at Benveniste's reluctance to perform the test.  Dr. Benveniste runs
on about the need for hundreds of guinea pig or rat hearts needed to
perform an "in vivo" test, while Josephson persists in his conviction
that a simple, inexpensive, "in vitro" analysis should be used, as
Benveniste's discoveries seemed to have promised.  Benveniste now
mumbles that further refinement of his test is needed, and that in any
case he is no longer interested in biological tests, but only in the
physics principles involved.  Beleagured Bob Park is consulting in
person-- in vivo! -- with Benveniste at about the time you'll be
reading this, and will doubtless be even more confounded by what he
will be told.  We had warned him that this would be a bumpy ride, with
no seat belts available.  Meanwhile, an amateur applicant for the
prize who we've put on "hold" until this matter is resolved, is all
a-twitter over the fact that the Nobel laureate has been in personal
touch with him through e-mail, and a new angle-- some recent
yeast-cell test of homeopathy -- has been introduced.  My, my, how the
plot thickens!

It's a pretty interesting situation.  A prominent winner in England of
the Nobel Prize has taken up the case for a prominent (two-time!)
winner in France of the Ignobel Prize, and challenged a prominent
organization in the USA-- the American Physical Society -- to test a
prominent version of quackery known as homeopathy, while a prominent
international award-- the Pigasus Prize -- stands waiting to be
claimed.  And it's proving VERY difficult for us to give away this
money!

Stay tuned.  James Randi.

[We've been busily sending out copies of the "Document" offered by the
JREF.  The response was greater than we'd anticipated, but we're staying
on top of it.  I'm personally grateful that so many are interested.]

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sites at netcom and unipi.it.

Report by Jed Rothwell [ JedRothwell infinite-energy.com ]
4.26.98 from ICCF-7:

L. C. Case: Gas loading with commercial hydrogenation catalyst
consisting of ~1% palladium on activated carbon. The cell must be
maintained at a temperature between 150 and 250 deg C, no higher or
lower. It is first loaded with hydrogen, which cleans the catalyst and
purges oxygen. It is then evacuated and loaded with deuterium. The
temperature rises 5 to 30 deg C over the baseline temperature
established with hydrogen, indicating 10 to 30 watts of excess heat.
The excess heat lasts for weeks. He has never let it run indefinitely.
He quenches the heat by letting the cell cool. The experiment has been
repeated dozens of times successfully. Cravens commented that the
treatment with hydrogen may be important. It serves as a null run and it
cleans the catalyst. Someone asked Case whether the hydrogen blanks
might be producing heat. He responded that he would have no way of
telling; he only knows that deuterium is much warmer. (He ignores
differences less than 5 deg C.) I was suspicious that this might be an
artifact of the different conduction coefficients of deuterium and
hydrogen. Such problems were reported by Mizuno, Oriani and others
working with gas calorimeters. I asked Case about the position of the
thermocouples, gas pressure, calibration techniques and the cell wall
temperature. I am satisfied this type of artifact is not a factor.

In his conference summation, McKubre cited this as one of the most
significant papers, because Case appears to have developed a 100%
reproducible process, and because he is willing to publish all details
about experiment. Mallove and I agree that this may be the most
important experiment in cold fusion. At present, Case uses an
uninsulated steel cell which he holds at the critical temperature with
an electric heater. We advised him to move the cell to an insulated
container, perhaps a Dewar, and to turn off the electric heater once the
reaction begins. If this is a genuine cold fusion excess heat reaction,
the cell should self-heat and remain hot indefinitely with no input,
probably for years. This test would do away with the need for
calorimetry and resolve all doubts about the existence of the excess
heat.

Case is a retired chemical engineer who has decades of experience
working with these catalysts. Beginning in 1989, he scoured the catalogs
and requested sample materials from several chemical companies. He
tested hundreds of samples at different temperatures and pressures, in
an Edisonian search for one that would rapidly absorb deuterium and
develop excess heat reliably. He finally found a particular type of
catalyst that is available from three suppliers. He has filed for an
international patent, which requires that all details be revealed even
before the patent is granted. I do not have the patent number or the
catalog part numbers, but I will get them soon. Case has agreed to bring
his cell to Mallove's laboratory in Bow, New Hampshire next Thursday for
independent verification. The materials in this cell simple and cheap.
The chemical companies can supply tons of the catalyst, and only 50 to
100 grams of the catalyst is need for each small cell, so this would
make an ideal demonstration cell. If we determine it works, we hope to
license the device, manufacture and sell hundreds of demonstration kits
within one month. We move fast here at Infinite Energy!

Case took samples to Prague where he rented the use of a nuclear
research laboratory to search for neutrons during the heat events, but
after extensive research he determined there are none. Case took a cell
that had run for weeks to Oak Ridge. They found 100 ppm helium in the
used gas, and no significant helium in the unused gas or catalyst
material.

Scott Little 4.28.98 [ little eden.com, Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres
Little, 1406 Old Wagon Road, Austin TX 78746  512-328-4071
Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX) ]:
I spoke with Dr. Case this morning and got all the picky details of his
preferred protocol.  He also gave me the catalog number, G-75E, of the
Pd-on-carbon catalyst from United Catalysts that has worked best in his
experiments.  I am trying to get some from them now.

Meanwhile, we already have some 1% Pd on carbon catalyst on hand and Dr.
Case indicated that it would probably suffice to see the effect.

Scott Little 4.29.99:

I spoke with Doug Perkins of United Catalysts today (502-634-7241) and
ordered a 100 cc "sample" of G-75E catalyst for $300.  It will be here
in a couple of days.  Doug is the guy that Case has been working with
over the last 2 years and he is fairly well convinced that Case is onto
a genuine effect.

G-75D catalyst -- 0.4% Pd activated carbon catalyst from:
United Catalysts, Inc. (attn: Douglas Perkins, 502-634-7241)
PO Box 32370  Louisville, KY 40232

Jed Rothwell 5.1.98:
Over 250 deg C because the catalyst self-destructs and the reaction
halts abruptly. It is a good fail safe mechanism.

Mallove 5.2.99:
I have scanned Dr. Leslie Case's issued PCT notice for Catalytic
Fusion, having obtained this public document from Derwent in Virginia. 
Issue #19 of Infinite Energy Magazine will include this material, plus
lots more concerning this new development by Dr. Case.  This posting
follows my earlier posting of a replication demonstration of the process
by Dr. Case here at Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. on April 30, 1998.

Incidentally, I looked up Leslie Case in my MIT Alumni register. He has
these MIT degrees: SB Chemical Engineering (1952); SB Industrial
Management; SM Chemical Engineering Practice; Sc.D. Chemical
Engineering

Best, Gene Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine  Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302  Phone: 603-228-4516
Fax:   603-224-5975  editor infinite-energy.com
www.infinite-energy.com  603-224-5975
Scott Little 5.19.98:

Take a look at:
http://www.eden.com/~little/case/run5.html

Executive Summary:
Our batting average is still .000 and this was with Dr Case's own
catalyst!

Scott Little 5.28.99:
Take a quick look at:
http://www.eden.com/~little/case/run7.html

It shows that the catalyst is not required for the thermal oscillations
I observed in Run 5 & 6.

I have spoken to Dr. Case again and he continues to emphasize the need
for near-complete replacement of the H2 on the catalyst with D2 in order
to see his effect.  Run 8 will attempt to accomplish this.  

Run 8 is presently underway with the 20 grams of G75-D catalyst that
Case sent me in the chamber.  Since Case thinks its important to get rid
of all the H2, I did not start this run with H2 at all.  Instead, I
started right off with D2. In my system, the water-flow calorimetry
provides an absolute measure of the heat released by the experiment.
I do not need to compare the temperature of the catalyst-H2 mixture to
the temperature of the catalyst-D2 mixture as Case does.

Run 8 has been underway for about 7 hours now and the 4th charge of D2
is in the chamber.  I leave the chamber under high vacuum for 10
minutes (extra long) between charges to help remove adsorbed H2 from
the catalyst surface.  Thus far there is not even the slightest hint of
excess heat.  My calorimetry is working well enough that 1 watt of real
excess heat would make an unmistakably positive signal.  Even 1/2 watt
would get my attention.

I will leave Run 8 "cooking" overnight and resume the evac-refill cycles
tomorrow.  

Case's system is 13 times larger than mine in volume.  In his procedure,
the residual H2 left on the catalyst is trapped in the system when he
fills the chamber with D2.  It's just the larger volume of D2 that
serves to mostly replace the H2 on the catalyst with D2.  In my present
situation, I'm completely evacuating the chamber between each filling
of D2 so I REMOVE the H2 that comes off and replace it with PURE D2 for
the next cycle.  

Does anybody want to venture a guess as to how many of my cycles would
be equivalent to Case's procedure?  Seems like ~8 flushes should get my
catalyst to have less H2 than his, no?

Horace:  For Run 8, I installed a temperature sensor on the bulkhead
that forms the ceiling of my chamber.  It reads about 95C when the
catalyst is 180C.  In other words, I have succeeded in creating a
significant temperature gradient in my chamber, as Case surely has in
his. All Vorts:  I appreciate the discussion that has occurred.  I'm
reading and considering everything.
Stay tuned for Run 8!

Jed Rothwell 3.26.99:
3. Replications of the Case experiment, which are mainly been performed
by Russ George[ rgeorege hooked.net ] and Fran Tanzella
[fran_tanzella qm.sri.com ], under the guidance of Les Case.

This was one of the most important papers ever presented in this field.
Unfortunately, the data from this experiment appears in the second
volume describing EPRI's cold fusion research, and this publication
costs $20,000. (The book is free to members EPRI, which is a consortium
of electric power companies.) It is a terrible shame that these
spectacular results are effectively kept secret behind this $20,000
barrier.

Morrison asked why the second experiment has not been repeated. McKubre
explained that the data shown represents five man years of work and a
huge amount of money, so he is looking for cheaper "cleverer" ways to
do it. He thinks the Case experiments fit this description, and he said
they are "almost ready for prime time," meaning he is nearly ready to
present them. He also intends to check six samples from the Case cell
for helium-3.

Since Russ George was in attendance, McKubre stepped aside and George
briefly described replications of the Case cell replications. In this
experiment, palladium on carbon catalysts are exposed to deuterium gas.
Excess heat and helium are detected. George first showed a graph
demonstrating the resolution of their on-line mass spectrometer, which
clearly separates peaks for helium-4 and deuterium. Then he showed two
helium production curves in one graph. Two cells were run side by side,
one with hydrogen, the other with deuterium gas. The hydrogen sample did
not produce excess heat or significant helium. The deuterium sample
produced steady excess heat and a steady increase in helium
concentration up to 11 ppm for 28 days, when experiment was terminated.
This is far above atmospheric concentration, 5.2 ppm. Contamination is
ruled out, because a leak could only reduce the level of helium. This
experiment is now being reproduced at SRI and two other laboratories.
George said it is slow and difficult work.

Akari Kawasaki 4.7.99 [ aki ix.netcom.com ]:
The way "Palladium Electrochemistry" was chaired by Scott Chubb was
"efficient". Jed made a nice report on the session. I just have a
little difference on the way Russ George was given a chance to report
on his successful Case replication experiment. This was buttressed by
reviewing the videotape of the session. As an aside, I was surprised
to see Douglas Morrison in attendance for this small session, as
contrasted with the ICCF's that he has been attending. Regardless of
his seeming position, I later congratulated him as being a member of
the 'Loyal Opposition' as he sat later by himself with some coffee and
paper. This is healthy as contrasted with activities reported by Jed
of Park, Zimmerman, Huizenga, et al on Monday. The session was started
by Scott Chubb at 14:00. Since this was the last session to be held in
that room, Scott Chubb remarked that we had essentially until 17:00
for ourselves. However, the 'formal' presentations were kept to a timed
10 minutes (+-) for each presentation.  In the last of his three-part
presentation by McKubre, his 'time' allotment ran out, so he did not
give the Case replication report. At the start of his presentation, he
flashed a viewgraph cover of the replication with Tanzella, George, and
Case listed as co-authors (and I presume, McKubre too since he was
reporting and was listed in an earlier abstract of his presentation
with his name and Tanzella as authors, but without George or Case).
Then, after Mckubre's presentation was cut because of the 'time limit',
Scott Chubb recognized Russ George in the back and invited him to come
foward and fill out the Case replication report. (Not many expected
George to be present). But as Russ George was coming foward, Chubb
closed the 'formal' session (after 15:00) and there were some talk of
taking a break before hearing George. Under the circumstances, George
made a very 'quickie' presentation (about 5 minutes) with a viewgraph
presentation of the helium results.  Thereafter, since the session was
already closed, followed loose active discussions on the state of CF as
mentioned by Jed.  Now, I later noticed that George's graph was higher
than the helium concentration he mentioned to me earlier. He agreed that
it was. It was a later graph.

Russ George has posted at his Saturna Technologies website his full
presentation of the Case replication effort conducted in July, 1998 with
graphs and picutres with credits distributed properly. You can see his
cells used in the experiment. It is different than what Case
constructed.  This was what was to be presented at the APS if given
proper opportunity and time rather then the truncated one. I think a
viewing and reading of his post is called for by the Vortex membership
and others.  <<http://rsrch.com/saturna/APSpapers_1998_1999.htm>>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  7 23:19:10 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Bitter Solenoid
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 02:21:00 -0400
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Gnorts,

The other day I mentioned the possibility of using "Tesla'a Bitter
Solenoids" as an inductor.  The above should have read "Bitter Solenoids",
invented by Francis Bitter.  I apologise to Mr. Bitter and Mr. Tesla, and
did not mean to imply that Telsa's solenoids were bitter, nor did I mean
that Bitter's solenoids were Telsa's.  I still would like to find out which
one is better, though.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  7 23:58:33 1999
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Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 02:56:37 -0400
From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
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Horace said:

>> The lower the cell resistance the more that can be gained from operating
at
resonance if the cell is AC. <<

You aint 'arf gettin' close to Stan Meyer!!  He used stainless steel
concentric tubes, and ramped, pulsed, High voltage DC in tap-water.  I
could never get the cell to resonate at 10kv from 100Hz up to 20KHz pulse
rate.

Norman Horwood

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 00:39:59 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
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At 02:56 AM 6/8/99 -0400, Norman Horwood wrote:
>Horace said:
>
>>> The lower the cell resistance the more that can be gained from operating
>at
>resonance if the cell is AC. <<
>
>You aint 'arf gettin' close to Stan Meyer!!  He used stainless steel
>concentric tubes, and ramped, pulsed, High voltage DC in tap-water.  I
>could never get the cell to resonate at 10kv from 100Hz up to 20KHz pulse
>rate.
>
>Norman Horwood


   Because it is dielectric relaxation -- and not resonance.
   
   The response of the complex permittivity clearly distinguishes
the two (compare the imaginary part).   In a resonance it rises and
and falls.  With relaxation, which is what is seen, it rises to an
assymptote.  

    References are the same as before.  Get Dielectric and Waves
for starters.

   Best wishes.
      Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 00:48:46 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
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At 2:56 AM 6/8/99, Norman Horwood wrote:
>Horace said:
>
>>> The lower the cell resistance the more that can be gained from operating
>at
>resonance if the cell is AC. <<
>
>You aint 'arf gettin' close to Stan Meyer!!  He used stainless steel
>concentric tubes, and ramped, pulsed, High voltage DC in tap-water.  I
>could never get the cell to resonate at 10kv from 100Hz up to 20KHz pulse


Some comments:

Then maybe resonance was outside that range?  Puharich used frequencies way
above that.

Using 10 kv sounds insane.  Does Meyer give some reason for that?  You want
less than a couple volts per cell, right?  Electrolyser cells using solid
polymer electrolytes, e.g. GE's perflourinated sulfonic acid polymer, and
high temperature (1000 C) vapor cells as well, operate at less than 1 volt.

Stan Meyer produced Brown's gas?

Achieving resonance using 10 KV should be fairly easy at *some* natural
frequency?  Here's some food for thought:


                        Rotary Spark
                            Gap
   10 kV -------------------o o-----
                       |           |
                       |           |
                      Cell         L1
                       |           |
                       C2          |
                       |           |
   Ground ------------------C1------


    C1 and/or C2 maybe not necessary

    C1, C2, or L2 variable if you want to be able to tune the freq.

    C2 possibly useful to block DC if the 10 kV supply is DC

If doing electrospark or O-M type cell, then moving the cell into series
with (or replacing) the spark gap, is possibly feasible.

An oscillator and step down air core transformer might be useful for HF
electrolysis.

And the free association on water disassociation keeps on roiling.  Isn't
this fun?   Can't be sure any of it is right, of course!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 01:15:51 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
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At 3:33 AM 6/8/99, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>At 02:56 AM 6/8/99 -0400, Norman Horwood wrote:
>>Horace said:
>>
>>>> The lower the cell resistance the more that can be gained from operating
>>at
>>resonance if the cell is AC. <<
>>
>>You aint 'arf gettin' close to Stan Meyer!!  He used stainless steel
>>concentric tubes, and ramped, pulsed, High voltage DC in tap-water.  I
>>could never get the cell to resonate at 10kv from 100Hz up to 20KHz pulse
>>rate.
>>
>>Norman Horwood
>
>
>   Because it is dielectric relaxation -- and not resonance.


The circuit achieves resonance.   With luck and design, relaxation might be
achieved in the electrolyte.


>
>   The response of the complex permittivity clearly distinguishes
>the two (compare the imaginary part).   In a resonance it rises and
>and falls.  With relaxation, which is what is seen, it rises to an
>assymptote.
>
>    References are the same as before.  Get Dielectric and Waves
>for starters.


"According to the Debye-Huckel theory, interionic attractions lead to the
formation of oppositely charged ions around every ion in solution. ... When
an ion moves in a field it tends to move out of this atmosphere, but the
atmosphere reforms.  However, since the atmosphere requires a finite time
for its formation, the atmosphere is no longer symmetrical about the ion
and tends to hold it back by electrostatic attraction. This retarding
effect is called the *relaxation effect.* ...

In an alternating field each ion in solution will acquire a periodic
motion.  If the frequency is increased to a point where the period of
oscillation of the ion beocmes comparable with the time of relaxation, the
dyssimmetry in the ionic atmosphere will decrease and the equivalent
conductance will increase." [Physical Chemistry, Daniels and Alberty, John
Wiley & Sons, 1963.]

This is just one small effect, but there are other resonances, as well as
relaxation (on-off) oscillator mechanisms to be had from electrolytes and
surface physics, true?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 01:18:44 1999
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Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
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At 12:13 AM 6/8/99 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>At 3:33 AM 6/8/99, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>>At 02:56 AM 6/8/99 -0400, Norman Horwood wrote:
>>>Horace said:
>>>
>>>>> The lower the cell resistance the more that can be gained from operating
>>>at
>>>resonance if the cell is AC. <<
>>>
>>>You aint 'arf gettin' close to Stan Meyer!!  He used stainless steel
>>>concentric tubes, and ramped, pulsed, High voltage DC in tap-water.  I
>>>could never get the cell to resonate at 10kv from 100Hz up to 20KHz pulse
>>>rate.
>>>
>>>Norman Horwood
>>
>>
>>   Because it is dielectric relaxation -- and not resonance.
>
>
>The circuit achieves resonance.   With luck and design, relaxation might be
>achieved in the electrolyte.

  Are you claiming that the electrodes and the cell are not part of the
system?  They are, and the response of the cell influences the electric
field distribution as well.



>>   The response of the complex permittivity clearly distinguishes
>>the two (compare the imaginary part).   In a resonance it rises and
>>and falls.  With relaxation, which is what is seen, it rises to an
>>assymptote.
>>
>>    References are the same as before.  Get Dielectric and Waves
>>for starters.
>
>
>"According to the Debye-Huckel theory, interionic attractions lead to the
>formation of oppositely charged ions around every ion in solution. ... When
>an ion moves in a field it tends to move out of this atmosphere, but the
>atmosphere reforms.  However, since the atmosphere requires a finite time
>for its formation, the atmosphere is no longer symmetrical about the ion
>and tends to hold it back by electrostatic attraction. This retarding
>effect is called the *relaxation effect.* ...

    Water/ice is a poled ferroelectric.  The 3D constellation
means it is MUCH more complicated that the simple Debye-Huckel theory.
Also, the inscription of proton ordering by the applied electric
field intensity is far more descriptive AND predictive of what is
observed.


>In an alternating field each ion in solution will acquire a periodic
>motion.  If the frequency is increased to a point where the period of
>oscillation of the ion beocmes comparable with the time of relaxation, the
>dyssimmetry in the ionic atmosphere will decrease and the equivalent
>conductance will increase." [Physical Chemistry, Daniels and Alberty, John
>Wiley & Sons, 1963.]
>
>This is just one small effect, but there are other resonances, as well as
>relaxation (on-off) oscillator mechanisms to be had from electrolytes and
>surface physics, true?
>


    Sorry.  It is not resonance.  It is relaxation.  If you want
resonance, go to much higher frequencies.

    Have a good day.

       Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 06:34:54 1999
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Subject:  Re: SSE report
   Date:  Tue, 8 Jun 1999 07:52:49 -0400
   From:  "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
     To:  "Rich Murray" <rmforall earthlink.net>

Rich,

I'm very pleased with your report of the SSE meeting. Some years ago
you said you were looking for convincing evidence of CF and LENR
phenomena, but did not see data from straightforward experiments that
was simple, clean, and free of artifacts. Apparently McKubre, an
excellent experimentalist, has done just that with the Case cell.
Too bad Park has his mind made up and doesn't want to be confused
by facts.

You said:
"In addition, since in physics, the basic rule is that what is not
prohibited is mandatory, then we must give much greater credence to
the vast body of reports of the many varieties of cold fusion in the
last ten years. "

This is a major turnaround, and I am pleased that you are able to make
it.  You were disturbed by the apparently erratic data of Fig 8a in the
A&Z report we discussed some time ago, and I was puzzled also. I
finally figured out what was fairly obvious in retrospect: the rise in
output from 2400 to 3700 hours, and the sudden drop, was simply a matter
of Arata's gradually cranking up the input power to get the data for an
output/input proportionality, similar to Fig 8c-- which was derived from
another run, that shown in Fig 8b. We'd all be happier if A&Z provided a
better narrative about their experiments. Certainly one of the criteria
for a valid process-- as opposed to a selected collection of artifacts
-- is that there be some demonstrable relation between an input
parameter and an output parameter. I think it reasonable that A&Z were
just testing the system by cranking up the input current and at 3700
hours decided to drop it back down.

Case is indeed a remarkable man. I first saw him at ICCF-7, making a
poster presentation. His appearance was that of a backwoods untutored
inventor, but what he had to say got the respectful attention of
everyone, and McKubre cited him as outstanding in his summary remarks
at the close of the conference.

Miley is now able to manufacture replicable cathodes. Stay tuned.

Regards, Mike

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 08:20:12 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: PLEC:  Run 4
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Run 4 has been completed.

http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/run4.html

Despite the complete lack of excess heat, some interesting things occurred
on this run and it provided a good demonstration of the excellent agreement
between the input power measured by our CH-2330 and the output power
measured by our water-flow calorimetry.

One of the interesting things was the occurrence of significant electrical
interference on the Tin signal during a new "dark cathode" mode of
operation that we have not seen before.  We're using thermistors with noise
reduction filters on the ADC inputs and they are usually very resistant to
electrical interference. As I understand it Mizuno is using thermocouples,
which, in our experience, are far more sensitive to electrical interference.

As an aside, I monitored the 115VAC 60Hz power being drawn by our EMI
150-10 DC supply during Run 4.  Here are the readings:

cell voltage:       145.5
cell current(RMS):  1.08
cell power:         134 watts
60Hz power:         255.5 watts
efficiency:         52.4%

After the run was over, I found a similar resistive load (a 100 watt light
bulb) and obtained the following readings:

bulb voltage:  139.0
bulb current:  0.915
bulb power:        127 watts
60 Hz power:       245 watts
efficiency:        51.9%

The DC supply appears to be working about the same for both loads.

Preparations for Run 5 are now underway.  We still have not received
Mizuno's cathodes.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 08:49:01 1999
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Hydrino Theory ?
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990607171806.0097e100 pop3.oro.net>
References: <bd8bbec1.248db8a6 aol.com>
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At 05:25 PM 6/7/1999 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
 
>I don't contest that hydrinos can form.  I don't contest that when they
>form you can form atomic absorption spectra to show exactly those
>wavelengths.  I don't contest that you can use ions like K to catalize
>their formation.
>
>What I do object to is the direction he claims the energy is going in when
>you do it.  It is much more logical that hydrino formation is an
>endothermic process that is driven by **absorbing** energy from the K atoms
>and or ions to crush the ground state hydrogen atom into a sub ground
state.  

>Put another way, it seems to me that hydrinos would result in a valuable
>refrigerant technology, but not a source of energy.

    And to put it another way, any theory has to be consistant with
observed behavior.  Hydrogen does form metallic states at high pressures,
but it makes much more sense to postulate that at two million atmospheres
of pressure, the transition becomes energetically favorable, than that
hydrinos are favored under normal conditions.  In addition, if hydrinos can
form in stars, they will drastically increase the rate of the PEP reaction.
 If the correct conditions only appear deep inside a star, it is consistant
with three observations:  the apparent lack of brown dwarfs, the standard
stellar model where there is little or no hydrogen in the lower depths of
stars, and the "anomalous" heat production in Jupiter.

   (Hmmm, there are a couple of leaps there.  First the brown dwarfs.  If
smaller stars can initiate nuclear fusion, then brown dwarfs are more
likely to ignite and either blow themselves apart immediately or burn out
quickly then explode.  Therefore brown dwarfs should be rare, not the most
common stellar type.  In the "standard" stellar model there are layers
inside the sun, or any normal star, with mostly hydrogen in the outer
layer, then helium, etc.  The "burning zone" is at the top of the helium
layer.  Hydrinos would be much denser than hydrogen, so they would migrate
to this layer, then quickly burn up.  Jupiter produces about three times
the amount of heat predicted, but the model has a layer of metallic
hydrogen near the "metal" core.  Again hydrinos formed where they are
stable would percolate downward to or below the heluim layer and burn up.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: CF, a pattern of success?
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All,

Has anyone looked for a pattern?  In any of the CF experiments that
have had any positive results has anyone charted the successes and
failures in relation to time.  Then tried to find a correlation to
anything outside of the test environment.  For instance in relation
to solar or lunar cycles.

1) There has been discussion here in the past of apparent measurable
changes of chemical processes as they relate to the current phase
of the moon.  An example being in the production of colloidal silver.

2) One could also point to the statistical observation that people are
more likely to behave erratically during a full moon.

3) Many mental problems can be related to chemical imbalances.

Could not the connection be made between these three observations?

May there be a similar effect on the chemical reactions at the
nuclear level in CF experiments?

Two <snipped> examples:

>Melvin H. Miles [ melmiles ridgecrest.ca.us, milesmh@navair.navy.mil,
>760-939-1652w, 760-371-1766h ], again reported data from runs in 1993
>and 1994 at China Lake that showed helium and excess heat from
>electrolysis with Pd and heavy water: 28 of 94 runs had excess heat.

>McKubre [ mike_mckubre qm.sri.com ] of Stanford Research Institute.
>About a dozen Case cells have been run, with a success rate of about
>one in two or three.

Bill
webriggs concentric.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 09:10:23 1999
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At 10:19 AM 6/8/1999 -0500, Scott Little wrote:

>One of the interesting things was the occurrence of significant electrical
>interference on the Tin signal during a new "dark cathode" mode of
>operation that we have not seen before.  We're using thermistors with noise
>reduction filters on the ADC inputs and they are usually very resistant to
>electrical interference. As I understand it Mizuno is using thermocouples,
>which, in our experience, are far more sensitive to electrical interference.

   I think this is an arc-like mode, where most of the rest of the
operation appears to be a glow discharge. The good agreement between Pin
and Pout during the arc mode indicates to me that you are filtering the
power pretty well, and the temperature measurements show the characteristic
electromagnetic effects. You might want to look at that "dark mode" in UV
and/or IR, but I suspect that what you are seeing is light radiated at a
frequency that is heavily absorbed by the electolyte solution, whether it
is UV, visible, or IR.

   Second, I find the behavior during shutdown very interesting.  On the
next run you might try holding the voltage (and input power) at a voltage
slightly above where the sheath collapses. 

 

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 09:13:31 1999
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At 11:46 AM 6/8/99 -0400, Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 wrote:
>All,
>
>Has anyone looked for a pattern?  In any of the CF experiments that
>have had any positive results has anyone charted the successes and
>failures in relation to time.  Then tried to find a correlation to
>anything outside of the test environment.  For instance in relation
>to solar or lunar cycles.


  There are simpler scientific explanations to explore before
diverging to such irrelevant things.  You might consider getting
the ICCF-7 Proceedings, or Swartz. M.., 1998, Patterns of Failure
in Cold Fusion Experiments, Proceedings of the 33RD Intersociety 
Engineering Conference on Energy Conversion, IECEC-98-I229, 
Colorado Springs, CO, August 2-6, 1998.  

   Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 09:20:11 1999
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Subject: SSE: McKubre: heat & helium in Case cell . . .
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Richard T. Murray writes:

	I was glad to be able to donate to Toby Grotz of Craig, CO [
	wireless cmn.net ] some high voltage capacitors and
	transformers, an oscilloscope, and a paper strip chart recorder
	(donated to me in 1996 by Mark Hugo).   Toby has a mass
	spectrometer running, and, given some funding, could quickly run
	all kinds of experiments

Wrong -- and this is a dangerous assumption which will lead to
disenchantment. Nobody can quickly run an experiment in cold fusion. Mizuno
began one soon after he read about Pons and Fleischmann in the newspaper,
but he had been doing similar experiments for 21 years.


	Lee Pulos showed slides of Thomaz Gren Morton of Brazil,
	transforming in fifteen minutes a bowl of broken unfertilized
	eggs into live, damp chicks.

I very much doubt this happened. A video would be a little more convincing
than slides, which could be taken hours or weeks apart and how would anyone
know? It is a shame that cold fusion is associated with such damn nonsense.


	Larry Dossey [ Ldossey ix.netcom.com ] summarized ongoing
	successful studies proving the reality of prayer healing at Duke
	University . . . 

Dare I ask . . . Has anyone considered the possibility that the bacteria
may be praying for survival? There are two ways of looking at this, after
all. It is a cruel outcome either way. I have been trying to rid my house
of mice for the past few months before one of them chews through an
electric wire and burns us all down (humans and mice). I hesitate to ask
the Lord to help me poison the parents and leave the orphaned baby mice to
starve. It reminds me of Mark Twain's "A War Prayer."

To be serious for a moment: I regard faith healing as a repugnant attempt
to blame the patient for the disease. Superstitious fools who fear disease
and death want magical control over nature. In every premodern culture they
invented faith healing, witchcraft, and so on. When he sees a sick person,
a superstitious person thinks: "It is his fault -- he has no faith. It will
not happen to me because I have the power to ward off illness." In some
cases patients do bring disease upon themselves, for example by overeating
or becoming addicted to tobacco. But a person with cancer, Parkinson's, or
an infectious disease has no say in the matter and no control. It is
outrageous, cruel, and uncivilized to tell him he should have had more
faith, he should have prayed more, it is his fault. In my opinion, that is
what faith healing boils down to. Genuine, unbiased clinical studies have
shown no correlation between patient attitude and survival rates, except
for the obvious reverse causality that people who are terminally ill often
become depressed about it. The disease triggers the attitude -- it never
works the other way around. I have seen a number of people die, and I know
people who work in hospices. (The first modern ones in the U.S. were
founded with the help of close friends of mine.) I have never seen any
evidence that the patient's attitude affects the prognosis, whereas the
prognosis always has a profound impact on the patient's mood. I like
people. I am optimistic about the future. I think we will progress as we
have progressed. But I wish people would *grow up* and put aside these
ancient superstitions. Let us try to catch up with Francis Bacon, who wrote
in 1620:

	In the selection of our reports and experiments, we consider
	that we have been more cautious for mankind than any of our
	predecessors. For we admit nothing but as an eyewitness, or at
	least upon approved and rigorously examined testimony; so that
	nothing is magnified into the miraculous, but our reports are
	pure and unadulterated by fables and absurdity. Nay, the
	commonly received and repeated falsehoods, which by some
	wonderful neglect have held their ground for many ages and
	become inveterate, are by us distinctly proscribed and branded,
	that they may no longer molest learning. For, as it has been
	well observed, that the tales, superstitions, and trash which
	nurses instil into children, seriously corrupt their minds, so
	are we careful and anxious whilst managing and watching over the
	infancy, as it were, of philosophy committed to the charge of
	natural history, that it should not from the first become
	habituated to any absurdity.

In response to Murray's endorsement of CF, Mallove writes:

	. . . but we also have  the apparent "transmutation" of Rich
	Murray himself -- welcome aboard,  Rich, if you really ARE on
	board from now on!

I think that a person would report that broken, unfertilized eggs can be
transformed into live chicks in fifteen minutes lacks a sense of judgement.
This does not appear to be a joke, and Murray expresses none of the
"skepticism" he directed toward CF for many years. He came up with endless,
absurd, unfounded objections to CF, tying logic in knots to deny the
obvious, yet now he expresses no reservations about self-assembling
chickens. I do not think his endorsement of CF adds credibility to the
field, and I do not welcome support from people who believe in
self-assembling chickens, faith healing, ESP, government conspiracies under
every pillow, and other tales, superstitions, and trash. I personally would
never give any credence to a pronouncement, report, or opinion expressed by
Murray. I do not worry that he will hurt the field by supporting it and
associating it with miracle chickens and faith healing, because I expect he
will change his mind and go back to attacking it again in a few weeks. I
hope he does.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 09:20:32 1999
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Subject: Message to K. Ota
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This message is self-explanatory, but here are a few details from the
abstract:

The cathodes are porous Ni or Pt foil 10 x 15 x 1 mm, the anode is a Pt rod
1 mm diameter, 25 mm length.

The cell is closed, with a recombiner. Flow calorimetry is employed.

Input power is 5 watts

Excess heat begins soon after electrolysis begins, climbs to 0.22 watts by
hour 2, and then falls to zero by hour 5. Net energy output was 1000 ~2000
joules. The Delta T (outlet minus inlet) temperature peaks at 1 ~ 2 deg C.
After the cathode is cooled, additional electrolysis does not produce any
excess heat. Ni did not produce significantly more or less heat than Pt.

The excess heat was seen in 3 out of 6 experiments with Ni, and 6 out of 8
experiments with platinum.

I consider these marginal results, probably caused by a chemical reaction.
The calorimetry is good, so despite the low power I do not think it is an
instrument artifact. Question: Can anyone think of a chemical reaction with
this mass of Ni or Pt that might produce up to 2000 joules?

Ota has not responded yet.

- JR

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Mon Jun 07 15:39:19 1999
To: ota ene.bsk.ynu.ac.jp, Gene
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Questions about JCF1-3 paper

Dear Dr. Ota,

I have the abstract for your recent paper "'Excess heat' at the beginning
of Electrolysis in K2CO3 light water solution." You report 2000 joules of
excess heat during the first five hours of electrolysis, and no excess heat
thereafter. You observed excess heat with platinum and nickel. I conclude
this is probably not cold fusion, but some sort of chemical reaction
instead. I have three questions about this paper:

1. Do you agree this is probably a chemical reaction?

2. Did you find commensurate chemical changes (chemical ash) that can
explain this excess energy?

3. Have you tried this experiment with an open cell? R. Mills and others
have reported that nickel light water systems do not produce excess heat
with closed cells. Mills has an elaborate "hydrino" theory to explain this.
Other people say that the chemical recombiner may affect cell chemistry.
Recombiners are often sources of contamination.

Sincerely,


Jed Rothwell

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At 4:12 AM 6/8/99, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
[snip]
>>The circuit achieves resonance.   With luck and design, relaxation might be
>>achieved in the electrolyte.
>
>  Are you claiming that the electrodes and the cell are not part of the
>system?


No, it appeared to me that it was you doing that.  My point is the
opposite, that effects from the electrolyte are small compared to the rest
of the ciruit, which in most cases should overwhelm any waveforms seen from
the electrolyte.


>They are, and the response of the cell influences the electric
>field distribution as well.


Yes, but unless you are using only small sampling signals, or very very
fast rise time pulses, i.e. a relaxation oscillator, the electrolyte
portion of the cell response will be lost in harmonics.


[snip]
>
>    Water/ice is a poled ferroelectric.  The 3D constellation
>means it is MUCH more complicated that the simple Debye-Huckel theory.

Could not agree more that it is much more complicated than that.

I suspect one of the most important features of AC electrolysis with
repspect to cell resistance is that electronation in one or more steps of
the electrodic reaction is driven away from being continually close to
equilibrium, the typical state in DC electrolysis.  Therefore the linear
current-density-overpotential law [Electrochemistry, Bockris & Reddy, Eq.
(8.53), Section 8.2.11] does not apply.  The cell dynamics become
non-linear, opening opportunities for novel responses, and throwing
gaussian particle energy distribuitions out the window.


>Also, the inscription of proton ordering by the applied electric
>field intensity is far more descriptive AND predictive of what is
>observed.
>
>
>>In an alternating field each ion in solution will acquire a periodic
>>motion.  If the frequency is increased to a point where the period of
>>oscillation of the ion beocmes comparable with the time of relaxation, the
>>dyssimmetry in the ionic atmosphere will decrease and the equivalent
>>conductance will increase." [Physical Chemistry, Daniels and Alberty, John
>>Wiley & Sons, 1963.]
>>
>>This is just one small effect, but there are other resonances, as well as
>>relaxation (on-off) oscillator mechanisms to be had from electrolytes and
>>surface physics, true?
>>
>
>
>    Sorry.  It is not resonance.  It is relaxation.


What is the "it" to which you refer?


> If you want
>resonance, go to much higher frequencies.

Yes, certainly much higher than 40 kHz.

Circuit frequency can be, and typically is in BG generators, achieved
completely independent of and oblivious to anything happening in the
electrolyte.   Therefore circuit resonance peaks can be, and typically are,
achieved completely independent of and oblivious to anything happening in
the electrolyte.  The same is true of microwave stimulation.   Yes, the
electrolyte is part of the circuit, but without exactly the right kind of
stimulation, an insignificant part.  It seems to me it takes a high degree
of effort and know how to utilize electrolyte dynamics.  The same is true
of interface dynamics, and surface physics effects.  Granted, a spark gap
oscillator is a relaxation oscillator, so tends to stimulate natural
resonanaces, even within the electrolyte, and feedback for these natural
frequencies might be enabled by a small bypass capacitor around the cell.
However, more sophiticated design of the bypass circuit resonance peaks and
cell geometry and cell size might be useful, as well as use of a
non-relaxation based oscillator.

In support of what you are saying (I think), and my points as well, I
should mention that my personal experience with some spark cells is that
sparks through the dielectric film that forms on the anode (or the anode
portion of the cycle) driven at about 400 volts have very fast rise times,
less than a few ns I think, and I suspect beyond the ability of my TEK
scope to measure.  It is only rated at 100 MHz, but the sampling rate is 1
GHz, and TEK stuff typically performs well above its ratings.  This spark
fast rise time should therefore make for a pretty good high speed
relaxation oscillator stimulator for responses up to at least 100 MHz.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 12:12:28 1999
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
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At 08:29 AM 6/8/99 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>At 4:12 AM 6/8/99, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>[snip]
>>>The circuit achieves resonance.   With luck and design, relaxation might be
>>>achieved in the electrolyte.
>>
>>  Are you claiming that the electrodes and the cell are not part of the
>>system?
>
>
>No, it appeared to me that it was you doing that.  My point is the
>opposite, that effects from the electrolyte are small compared to the rest
>of the ciruit, which in most cases should overwhelm any waveforms seen from
>the electrolyte.

   The effects are marked, especially as the electrolyte undergoes
its conduction/polarisation responses.

 ===============================================


>>They are, and the response of the cell influences the electric
>>field distribution as well.
>
>
>Yes, but unless you are using only small sampling signals, or very very
>fast rise time pulses, i.e. a relaxation oscillator, the electrolyte
>portion of the cell response will be lost in harmonics.

  If this were correct, one would not see changes in kappa''
the imaginary part of the complex permittivity, consistent with
relaxation.  And one does.


 ===============================================


>>    Water/ice is a poled ferroelectric.  The 3D constellation
>>means it is MUCH more complicated that the simple Debye-Huckel theory.
>
>Could not agree more that it is much more complicated than that.

   Yes.  And quite worth looking into.   Water is a key to many
of the purported o/u systems, and is a key to several of the
cold fusion systems.


 ===============================================


>I suspect one of the most important features of AC electrolysis with
>repspect to cell resistance is that electronation in one or more steps of
>the electrodic reaction is driven away from being continually close to
>equilibrium, the typical state in DC electrolysis.  Therefore the linear
>current-density-overpotential law [Electrochemistry, Bockris & Reddy, Eq.
>(8.53), Section 8.2.11] does not apply.  The cell dynamics become
>non-linear, opening opportunities for novel responses, and throwing
>gaussian particle energy distribuitions out the window.
>
>
>>Also, the inscription of proton ordering by the applied electric
>>field intensity is far more descriptive AND predictive of what is
>>observed.
>>
>>
>>>In an alternating field each ion in solution will acquire a periodic
>>>motion.  If the frequency is increased to a point where the period of
>>>oscillation of the ion beocmes comparable with the time of relaxation, the
>>>dyssimmetry in the ionic atmosphere will decrease and the equivalent
>>>conductance will increase." [Physical Chemistry, Daniels and Alberty, John
>>>Wiley & Sons, 1963.]
>>>
>>>This is just one small effect, but there are other resonances, as well as
>>>relaxation (on-off) oscillator mechanisms to be had from electrolytes and
>>>surface physics, true?
>>>
>>
>>
>>    Sorry.  It is not resonance.  It is relaxation.
>
>
>What is the "it" to which you refer?


   The conduction/polarization response of the electrolyte.


 ===============================================




>> If you want
>>resonance, go to much higher frequencies.
>
>Yes, certainly much higher than 40 kHz.


    Optical wavelengths, Horace.


    Best wishes.
      Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 12:23:40 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: PLEC:  Run 4
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:26:19 -0700 
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Scott
	The voltage regulation is not very good. A 6.5v change for .16A load
change? 40.6 ohms differential internal resistance?

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Scott Little[SMTP:little eden.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Tuesday, June 08, 1999 8:19 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	PLEC:  Run 4
> 
> Run 4 has been completed.
> 
> http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/run4.html
> 
> Despite the complete lack of excess heat, some interesting things occurred
> on this run and it provided a good demonstration of the excellent
> agreement
> between the input power measured by our CH-2330 and the output power
> measured by our water-flow calorimetry.
> 
> One of the interesting things was the occurrence of significant electrical
> interference on the Tin signal during a new "dark cathode" mode of
> operation that we have not seen before.  We're using thermistors with
> noise
> reduction filters on the ADC inputs and they are usually very resistant to
> electrical interference. As I understand it Mizuno is using thermocouples,
> which, in our experience, are far more sensitive to electrical
> interference.
> 
> As an aside, I monitored the 115VAC 60Hz power being drawn by our EMI
> 150-10 DC supply during Run 4.  Here are the readings:
> 
> cell voltage:       145.5
> cell current(RMS):  1.08
> cell power:         134 watts
> 60Hz power:         255.5 watts
> efficiency:         52.4%
> 
> After the run was over, I found a similar resistive load (a 100 watt light
> bulb) and obtained the following readings:
> 
> bulb voltage:  139.0
> bulb current:  0.915
> bulb power:        127 watts
> 60 Hz power:       245 watts
> efficiency:        51.9%
> 
> The DC supply appears to be working about the same for both loads.
> 
> Preparations for Run 5 are now underway.  We still have not received
> Mizuno's cathodes.
> 
> 
> 
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 12:26:32 1999
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From: Ross Tessien <Tessien oro.net>
Subject: Re: Hydrino Theory ?
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>   (Hmmm, there are a couple of leaps there.  First the brown dwarfs.  If
>smaller stars can initiate nuclear fusion, then brown dwarfs are more
>likely to ignite and either blow themselves apart immediately or burn out
>quickly then explode.  Therefore brown dwarfs should be rare, not the most
>common stellar type.  

 There is a gap in the numbers of red dwarfs expected.  At a certain mass,
above the expected ignition mass, red dwarfs sort of disappear.  IOW, there
is a band of red dwarf masses that should be there burning away, but which
do not exist except rarely.  ie, the numbers of stars of given type
continue increasing as you get toward red dwarfs.  But then, at a certain
point, the numbers of red dwarfs observed drop, rather than continuing to
rise as expected.

I have a different explanation, but it is also based on those stars blowing
themselves apart.  So I would have to concede this as a piece of evidence
that something more than conventional fusion is going on in stars (I just
happen to think it has to do with a form of spacetime curvature that is
tied to the cosmological constant, and not to hydrinos).

In the "standard" stellar model there are layers
>inside the sun, or any normal star, with mostly hydrogen in the outer
>layer, then helium, etc.  The "burning zone" is at the top of the helium
>layer.  Hydrinos would be much denser than hydrogen, 

He says they are lighter, so they would float out.

rt

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 12:32:00 1999
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Subject: RE: PLEC:  Run 4
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At 11:26 6/8/99 -0700, Scudder, Henry J wrote:

>	The voltage regulation is not very good. A 6.5v change for .16A load
>change? 40.6 ohms differential internal resistance?

...er,...uh...you must be talking about these data?

>> cell voltage:       145.5
>> cell current(RMS):  1.08

>> bulb voltage:  139.0
>> bulb current:  0.915

That's not the power supply fluctuating...I changed the voltage-setting on
the power supply between these two observations.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 12:36:42 1999
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At 10:36 6/8/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Input power is 5 watts

>Excess heat begins soon after electrolysis begins, climbs to 0.22 watts

>Question: Can anyone think of a chemical reaction with
>this mass of Ni or Pt that might produce up to 2000 joules?

I've seen plenty of calorimeter problems that caused errors of that
magnitude (i.e. ~5% relative).  What makes you say, "the calorimetry is good"?





Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 12:39:16 1999
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Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 15:03:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: TEXAS (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 15:03:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: TEXAS


	Dear Folks,

	Here is a question for anyone who;

	lives in Tesax
	loves Texas
	Knows about Texas
	Wants to help Texas

	I have bee given an opportunity to maybe be able to help with a
problem in Texas....So I need to know of some problems.

	The Questions....   Here goes:

	Do you know of any on going pollution, toxic waste thet needs to
be cleaned up?
	Know of any waste of toxic 'something' which needs to be made less
so .....

	Example:  Here in Ohio if you clean the water you use for an
industrial process, one specific being chromium  electro plating, then you
do not get a sur charge for letting the water run down the drain... 
	SO:  Some general areas to fix might be... find way of process
which uses less chromium... or a lesser  concentration or a chromium
compound which is easily recoverable... OR  Way to separate the chromium

	MORE Question about Texas:

	Things to improve of fix or clean ... and this can be ANYTHING...
I just don't know Texas well.
	
	Q:  In parts of the Great Lakes a type of mussle, the Zebra mussle
is an accidental "hitchhiking import" from other parts of the world....
and it breeds REAL fast and clogs stuff up....
	SO: Any issue like thi is Texas?  Any bugs, bacteria, animals,
plants??
	Q:  Any messes and-or "bad buisiness" which is usually delgated to
ghettos and-or poor peoples' areas?  Example... hypothetical:  Maybe
asbestos disposal is buried in Hispanic areas.... or smelly or dangerous
chemical process relagated to such areas.

	Any kind of human problem....Like here in Ohio... we sometimes
burn coal to make electricity.... some coal has high sulfur content ..
other coal with less sulphur is cheaper  AND to make matters worse.... the
disposal of the scrubbed sulfur is done in poor areas.. and the scrubbing
is not well executed ...AND in some case the polluters simply BUY
pollution credits ...
	In some areas you are charged MORE for power if you exceed a
certain rate.... the things you can buy to correct this semi automatically
are priced out of range for the poor and elderly .. so they get nailed.

	Q:  Are the poor or blind or non hearing discriminated against in
some type of employment?
	Any other groups?

	_______________

	SO:  Bottom line ... anything we can do to do good for Texas ...
and-or help the people of Texas in the bargain ... no matter how odd or
seemingly hard to do .... ESPECIALLY which helps people, corrects or
improves some type of bias... and some problem unuque to TEXAS

	Maybe long life refridgration ... OR  Some specific water
pollution issue unique to TEXAS.

	In almost EVERY case.. if done right.. then you can even make
money or save money ....  

	How about Schools and hospitals...
	Animal related stuff
	Food or crop stuff...

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 12:40:37 1999
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Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 15:08:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Wired News: Moller Volantor about to fly 
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	Who is Moll. Volanter?  I cannot read attch ... can you PLEASE
send ASCII text?  I do not have ready access to www.

		Thanks,
				J

On Mon, 7 Jun 1999, Richard T. Murray wrote:

> http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/20017.html?wnpg=1

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 12:41:14 1999
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...
Mr. Schnurer,

I have been given this question by my children.  I can’t figure it out, can 
you?



There are only three words in the English language that end with “gry”.

1.	angry

2.	hungry

3.	___gry


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 12:53:41 1999
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http://www.moller.com/

                     Flying Car Set for Takeoff
                     by Leander Kahney 

                     3:00 a.m.  4.Jun.99.PDT
                     Meet George Jetson's car: The world's
                     first flying car to lift off vertically will
                     make its maiden flight later this month. 

                     Moller International, a US aviation
                     company based in Davis, California, is
                     planning the first test of its Skycar in the
                     company's backyard. 

                     Like the British Harrier jump jet, the
                     four-seat Skycar will take off and land
                     vertically. 

                     Powered by eight rotary engines, the
                     flying car is designed to travel about 900
                     miles at more than 350 mph on a single
                     tank of gas. 

                     About the size of a full-sized SUV, the
                     Skycar can be fueled with ordinary
                     gasoline -- the lower the octane the
                     better, said Jack Allison, Moller's vice
                     president of administration. 

                     "It'll run on diesel, propane, even filtered
                     McDonalds' french-fry oil," he said.
                     "Anything that burns." 

                     You can drive it, too. Allison said the
                     Skycar will be legal on the street and
                     capable of cruising roadways at up to 30
                     mph using its electric engine. 

                     During the unmanned test flight, Moller is
                     hoping to hover the car about five feet
                     above the ground for a minute or longer. 

                     Depending on its success, more ambitious
                     tests with professional test pilots will
                     follow in two to three years. 

                     The car-plane may be on the market
                     shortly afterwards, Allison said, depending
                     on the Federal Aviation Authority (FAA),
                     which must certify the vehicle. Since the
                     vehicle is the first of its kind, it may take
                     the FAA longer than usual to give its
                     stamp of approval, Allison said. 

                     The company has already flown an
                     Aerobot test vehicle, which uses a similar
                     engine, to heights of more than 40 feet
                     about 200 times. 

                     Like a magic carpet, the Aerobot moves
                     straight up and is capable of sitting
                     stationary in the air, Allison said. 

                     During tests, however, it had to be
                     tethered to a crane since it isn't licensed
                     by the FAA. Likewise, the Skycar will be
                     tied to a crane during its test flight. 

                     Currently, would-be pilots will need a
                     pilot's license to fly the Skycar. But under
                     the Highway in the Sky initiative launched
                     by NASA in February, the Skycar and
                     similar vehicles may eventually be flown
                     completely under computer control. 

                     Using a global positioning system for
                     guidance, it's hoped that the Highway in
                     the Sky system will allow unlicensed pilots
                     to be flown anywhere by completely
                     automated flying machines.


                     Flying Car Set for Takeoff Page 2
                     3:00 a.m.  4.Jun.99.PDT

                     continued 
                     "We hope to ultimately put grandma in
                     the cockpit and send her home," Allison
                     said. 

                     The Skycar will initially cost a cool
                     US$995,000, though Allison said the
                     company hopes volume production will
                     lower the price to $100,000 within a
                     decade. 

                     The Skycar is the brainchild of Paul
                     Moller, a former professor of Aeronautical
                     Engineering at the University of California
                     at Davis. Moller founded the company in
                     1983 to develop a vertical takeoff and
                     landing aircraft. 

                     The company already has a revenue
                     stream from the Aerobot, which was
                     developed for military surveillance and
                     reconnaissance purposes. The company is
                     also building one for CalTrans, California's
                     transportation agency, for inspecting
                     bridges, Allison said. 

                     Moller has spun off a company, Freedom
                     Motors, which makes rotary engines
                     similar to those used in the Skycar and
                     Aerobots. 

                     The Skycar will be fitted with twin
                     joysticks: one to control altitude and rate
                     of climb, the other to determine direction
                     and speed. The Skycar's three
                     flight-control computers will translate
                     movement of the two joysticks into the
                     actual flying. 

                     According to Allison, the company hopes
                     to eventually include advanced
                     flight-control and navigation systems,
                     such as a dual infrared-sensing
                     technology that will allow pilots to see
                     terrain through thick cloud cover. 

                     "The goal is to be able to land at night
                     and in fog," Allison said. 

                     The Skycar will be able to fly horizontally
                     on just two engines, Allison said. To land
                     with two engines, the pilot would have to
                     try a traditional horizontal landing or
                     deploy the vehicle's two built-in
                     parachutes. External airbags underneath
                     will cushion rough landings. 

                     Although it takes a lot of energy to get
                     the Skycar off the ground, it is
                     energy-efficient when cruising, Allison
                     said. Air ducts that can be tilted provide
                     upward or forward thrust. 

                     First invented in the 1940s by German
                     inventor Franz Wankel, the rotary engine
                     is probably best known for powering the
                     Mazda RX-7 sports car.

Welcome to the Moller International Homepage: http://www.moller.com/

                         Pictured here are Moller's exciting products,
the aerobot and the M400
                         Skycar. The aerobot is a multipurpose unmanned
aerial vehicle. The
                         Skycar is a VTOL capable personal aircraft.
Both use the Rotapower
                         engine by Freedom Motors, a very high
power-to-weight ratio, low
                         pollution, reliable, multi-operational rotary
engine. 

                         We encourage you to explore this web site to
learn more about the Skycar and the other
                         exciting projects that Moller has to offer.
Navigation will be easy if you use the                             table
of contents at the left.
                         Thanks for visiting!
                                         Moller International
                                      1222 Research Park Drive
                                        Davis, CA 95616 USA 
                                        Fax: (530) 756 - 5179

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 13:17:08 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: CF, a pattern of success?
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 15:18:14 -0400
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>>anything outside of the test environment.  For instance in relation
>>to solar or lunar cycles.
>
>
>  There are simpler scientific explanations to explore before
>diverging to such irrelevant things.  You might consider getting
>the ICCF-7 Proceedings, or Swartz. M.., 1998, Patterns of Failure
>in Cold Fusion Experiments, Proceedings of the 33RD Intersociety 
>Engineering Conference on Energy Conversion, IECEC-98-I229, 
>Colorado Springs, CO, August 2-6, 1998.  
>
>   Mitchell Swartz

Both your points are valid.  The study of gravitational influences is pretty
old science though.  In the photographic industry, and others where you deal
with large vats of chemicals wherein things are processed at high speeds, it
has been found that the orientation of the the equipment with regard to the
earth's magnetic poles are important, and small adjustments have to be made
to the process due to lunar cycles.  The effects go on unnoticed for the
most part in normal everyday life, just because they are so small.  It's a
matter of scale.  In these table top experiments, they are negligable, IMO,
but if you come up with a mathmatical proof or physical demonstration that
says otherwise, let us know.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 13:49:41 1999
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Subject: PLEC:  cathodes arrive!
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The cathodes Mizuno sent me are here.  A photo of them with one of mine on
the left for comparison is at:

http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/cathodes.jpg

Unfortunately one of the spot welds (they really are spot welds!) broke
during shipment.

My cathode looks mottled because of the "polishing" I've done on it.  Looks
like I need a finer grit to match Mizuno's finish.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 13:59:58 1999
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Subject: Re: Message to K. Ota
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Scott Little asks:

	I've seen plenty of calorimeter problems that caused errors of
	that magnitude (i.e. ~5% relative).  What makes you say, "the
	calorimetry is good"?

Well, I cannot rule out instrument error categorically at such low power
levels, but four things make me doubt there is a problem:

1. The description of their calorimeters in ICCF-7, p. 297, which says the
errors are +/- 1.5%. I find it plausible. Plus, these sentences translated
from the JCF1-3 abstract: "A 'flow' calorimeter was employed, which
consists of a cell surrounded by a cooling jacket of flowing water, where
the inlet temperature is compared to the outlet temperature. To prevent
changes in ambient temperature from affecting the measurements, the
equipment was installed in a high precision, insulated hood, with +/- 0.005
deg C precision control over air temperature." Sounds good to me. Fig. 1
shows that after the initial heat burst, in the next 25 hours of operation
random fluctuations remained between 0.05 and -0.05 watts.

2. The fact that the same pattern has been observed repeatedly, in 9 out of
14 tests. The excess heat appears once, at the beginning of the first run,
and never again thereafter. As I see it:

It could be chemistry, where fuel is consumed and the reaction stops.

It might be CF, where the cathode surface becomes contaminated.

If it is an instrument artifact, why does it only happen once per cathode?
That makes no sense. The cathode cannot affect the instruments.

3. Admittedly, ~5% relative is a little dicey, but 100 to 200 mW absolute
is fairly easy to measure with high tech equipment. Even with 5 watts
background noise (input power) that can be detected with confidence. It
would be far easier to measure 5% excess at 200 mW than, say, 70% excess at
10 mW (14 mW in, 24 mW out).

4. Ota et al. spent nine years detecting virtually nothing, in 79
experiments. They know a null when they see it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 14:04:46 1999
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I forgot to specify that the electrolyte is 50 ml of 0.5M K2CO3 in light
water.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 14:19:05 1999
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Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 wrote:

> Dear Bill,
>
> Has anyone looked for a pattern?  In any of the CF experiments that
> have had any positive results has anyone charted the successes and
> failures in relation to time.  Then tried to find a correlation to
> anything outside of the test environment.

Just send $25 to Ed Storms, 2140 Paseo Ponderosa, Santa Fe, NM 87501 and
I will send you a collection of papers and reviews which will answer many
of your questions.

Ed




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 14:20:31 1999
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Hydrino Theory ?
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990608111701.0097e390 pop3.oro.net>
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At 11:22 AM 6/8/1999 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
> There is a gap in the numbers of red dwarfs expected.  At a certain mass,
>above the expected ignition mass, red dwarfs sort of disappear.  IOW, there
>is a band of red dwarf masses that should be there burning away, but which
>do not exist except rarely.  ie, the numbers of stars of given type
>continue increasing as you get toward red dwarfs.  But then, at a certain
>point, the numbers of red dwarfs observed drop, rather than continuing to
>rise as expected.
>
>I have a different explanation, but it is also based on those stars blowing
>themselves apart.  So I would have to concede this as a piece of evidence
>that something more than conventional fusion is going on in stars (I just
>happen to think it has to do with a form of spacetime curvature that is
>tied to the cosmological constant, and not to hydrinos).
    
     I agree with you, except that I accept the more prosaic part of the
explanation as basically proven.  If stars ignite at lower masses and
pressures, than expected, most brown dwarfs will quickly loss most of their
mass, and the infall of gas basically stops when ignition begins, so stars
and planets in a particular mass range just won't exist.  That agrees
perfectly with observations (including the large number of "hot jovian
planets" detected around other stars.  But for now, my mind is open on what
the required new physics is.  Imagine for a moment an analog to the Bethe
carbon cycle that could be discovered just by studying a table of isotopes.
 If there is one, it will almost certainly lower ignition temperatures in
stars.  (Of course, if there is a catalyst for d + d --> He4 that also does
the job nicely.)

>In the "standard" stellar model there are layers
>>inside the sun, or any normal star, with mostly hydrogen in the outer
>>layer, then helium, etc.  The "burning zone" is at the top of the helium
>>layer.  Hydrinos would be much denser than hydrogen, 
>
>He says they are lighter, so they would float out.
 
   If they are lighter, they would float out, but that seems highly
unlikely.  In the scenario i had in mind, most of the hydrogen is ionized
(and part of the plasma) while hydrinos are necessarily unionized, and
would fall inwards.  Remember, part of the assumptions for this are that
hydrinos are relatively stable, so their interactions with charged ions
must be small.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 14:23:42 1999
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: SSE: McKubre: heat & helium in Case cell . . .
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I realize this is off-topic and grouchy, but I feel I should add that Bacon
was, in fact, referring to idiotic superstitions like faith healing. In
Part 46, he gives this example:

	The human understanding, when any preposition has been once laid
	down . . . forces every thing else to add fresh support and
	confirmation; and although more cogent and abundant instances
	may exist to the contrary, yet either does not observe or
	despises them, or gets rid of and rejects them by some
	distinction, with violent and injurious prejudice, rather than
	sacrifice the authority of its first conclusions. It was well
	answered by him [Diagoras] who was shown in a temple the votive
	tablets suspended by such as had escaped the peril of shipwreck,
	and was pressed as to whether he would then recognise the power
	of the gods, by an inquiry; "But where are the portraits of
	those who have perished in spite of their vows?" All
	superstition is much the same, whether it be that of astrology,
	dreams, omens, retributive judgment, or the like; in all of
	which the deluded believers observe events which are fulfilled,
	but neglect and pass over their failure, though it be much more
	common. But this evil insinuates itself still more craftily in
	philosophy and the sciences; in which a settled maxim vitiates
	and governs every other circumstance, though the latter be much
	more worthy of confidence . . .

	- Francis Bacon, Novum Organum, 1620

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 14:37:07 1999
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Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 14:36:56 +0000
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 cwnet.com>
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John Schnurer wrote:

> There are only three words in the English language that end with “gry”.
>
> 1.      angry
>
> 2.      hungry
>
> 3.      ___gry

John,

>From dictionary.com, gry this one on for size:


    gry \Gry\, n. [Gr ? syllable, bit.] 1. A measure equal to one tenth
                                                        of a line. [Obs.]
--Locke.

                                                        2. Anything very small,
or of little value. [R.]

Regards,
Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 16:32:20 1999
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To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: PLEC:  Run 4
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 16:18:15 -0700 
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OK,
Hank sorry

> ----------
> From: 	Scott Little[SMTP:little eden.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Tuesday, June 08, 1999 12:32 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com; 'vortex-l@eskimo.com'
> Subject: 	RE: PLEC:  Run 4
> 
> At 11:26 6/8/99 -0700, Scudder, Henry J wrote:
> 
> >	The voltage regulation is not very good. A 6.5v change for .16A load
> >change? 40.6 ohms differential internal resistance?
> 
> ...er,...uh...you must be talking about these data?
> 
> >> cell voltage:       145.5
> >> cell current(RMS):  1.08
> 
> >> bulb voltage:  139.0
> >> bulb current:  0.915
> 
> That's not the power supply fluctuating...I changed the voltage-setting on
> the power supply between these two observations.
> 
> 
> 
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 17:07:38 1999
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Subject: Re: SSE: McKubre: heat & helium in Case cell . . .
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

At the risk of losing credibility, I would like to add a few cents worth of
comments to this discussion.

> Richard T. Murray writes:
>
>         I was glad to be able to donate to Toby Grotz of Craig, CO [
>         wireless cmn.net ] some high voltage capacitors and
>         transformers, an oscilloscope, and a paper strip chart recorder
>         (donated to me in 1996 by Mark Hugo).   Toby has a mass
>         spectrometer running, and, given some funding, could quickly run
>         all kinds of experiments
>
> Wrong -- and this is a dangerous assumption which will lead to
> disenchantment. Nobody can quickly run an experiment in cold fusion. Mizuno
> began one soon after he read about Pons and Fleischmann in the newspaper,
> but he had been doing similar experiments for 21 years.

True enough, but it is still worth trying.  The effort makes a person
appreciate the issues and the difficulties.

>
>         Lee Pulos showed slides of Thomaz Gren Morton of Brazil,
>         transforming in fifteen minutes a bowl of broken unfertilized
>         eggs into live, damp chicks.
>
> I very much doubt this happened. A video would be a little more convincing
> than slides, which could be taken hours or weeks apart and how would anyone
> know? It is a shame that cold fusion is associated with such damn nonsense.

I was at the same conference and heard the same talk so I might be able to add
a few more insights.  Granted the claims are hard to believe, but the
situation is very similar to cold fusion at the present time.  Belief in the
claim depends only on whether one can trust the individual making the claim.
That has been the attitude of all physicists as the basis for rejecting the CF
claims.  Belief only occurs after one does the experiment one's self or by
having a friend (a fellow physicist) whom you trust do the experiment.  The
same situation applies to the chicken claim.  Either one trusts Lee Pulos or
one goes to Brazil or one talks to another person who has seen the same or
similar phenomena.  In any case, one should not reject the claim out of hand
without adopting the same type of attitude which rejects cold fusion, for the
same reasons.  While the claim made by Lee is amazing, similar events have
been witnessed by many people, some of whom I know and trust.

>         Larry Dossey [ Ldossey ix.netcom.com ] summarized ongoing
>         successful studies proving the reality of prayer healing at Duke
>         University . . .
>
> Dare I ask . . . Has anyone considered the possibility that the bacteria
> may be praying for survival? There are two ways of looking at this, after
> all. It is a cruel outcome either way. I have been trying to rid my house
> of mice for the past few months before one of them chews through an
> electric wire and burns us all down (humans and mice). I hesitate to ask
> the Lord to help me poison the parents and leave the orphaned baby mice to
> starve. It reminds me of Mark Twain's "A War Prayer."

This claim is not so unreasonable and has significant support from well done
studies.  One does not even have to believe in God for it to work.  I don't
think the method will get rid of mice.  It only makes them more healthy..

>
> To be serious for a moment: I regard faith healing as a repugnant attempt
> to blame the patient for the disease. Superstitious fools who fear disease
> and death want magical control over nature. In every premodern culture they
> invented faith healing, witchcraft, and so on. When he sees a sick person,
> a superstitious person thinks: "It is his fault -- he has no faith. It will
> not happen to me because I have the power to ward off illness." In some
> cases patients do bring disease upon themselves, for example by overeating
> or becoming addicted to tobacco. But a person with cancer, Parkinson's, or
> an infectious disease has no say in the matter and no control.

The issue is not whether a person is at fault in getting sick.  This event is
largely random expect when obvious lifestyle mistakes are made.  However, the
process of getting well can profit from enhancements to the immune system
which can be produced by personal effort.  Many ways to affect the immune
system are available, with superstition being one of them.  A sick person
needs only to find the method which works for him.  Sometime a simple belief
in a cure is all it takes. Of course this belief does not fix everything but
it helps greatly.

> It is
> outrageous, cruel, and uncivilized to tell him he should have had more
> faith, he should have prayed more, it is his fault. In my opinion, that is
> what faith healing boils down to. Genuine, unbiased clinical studies have
> shown no correlation between patient attitude and survival rates, except
> for the obvious reverse causality that people who are terminally ill often
> become depressed about it. The disease triggers the attitude -- it never
> works the other way around. I have seen a number of people die, and I know
> people who work in hospices. (The first modern ones in the U.S. were
> founded with the help of close friends of mine.) I have never seen any
> evidence that the patient's attitude affects the prognosis, whereas the
> prognosis always has a profound impact on the patient's mood. I like
> people. I am optimistic about the future. I think we will progress as we
> have progressed. But I wish people would *grow up* and put aside these
> ancient superstitions. Let us try to catch up with Francis Bacon, who wrote
> in 1620:

Your experience is perhaps not universal.  Several doctors I have asked about
this issue have the opposite opinion.  Increasingly,  the role of belief in a
cure is recognized in alternative medicine to profoundly affect the outcome.
For course, not all sickness responds.  Sometimes the illness is too far along
or too active for the immune system to have any effect.  There is nothing
mystical about the process.  The belief helps the body heal itself.

>
>         In the selection of our reports and experiments, we consider
>         that we have been more cautious for mankind than any of our
>         predecessors. For we admit nothing but as an eyewitness, or at
>         least upon approved and rigorously examined testimony; so that
>         nothing is magnified into the miraculous, but our reports are
>         pure and unadulterated by fables and absurdity. Nay, the
>         commonly received and repeated falsehoods, which by some
>         wonderful neglect have held their ground for many ages and
>         become inveterate, are by us distinctly proscribed and branded,
>         that they may no longer molest learning. For, as it has been
>         well observed, that the tales, superstitions, and trash which
>         nurses instil into children, seriously corrupt their minds, so
>         are we careful and anxious whilst managing and watching over the
>         infancy, as it were, of philosophy committed to the charge of
>         natural history, that it should not from the first become
>         habituated to any absurdity.

I agree Jed, some beliefs are absurd.  The problem is to separate the good
from the bad without rejecting ideas just because they seem improbable.

>
> In response to Murray's endorsement of CF, Mallove writes:
>
>         . . . but we also have  the apparent "transmutation" of Rich
>         Murray himself -- welcome aboard,  Rich, if you really ARE on
>         board from now on!
>
> I think that a person would report that broken, unfertilized eggs can be
> transformed into live chicks in fifteen minutes lacks a sense of judgement.
> This does not appear to be a joke, and Murray expresses none of the
> "skepticism" he directed toward CF for many years. He came up with endless,
> absurd, unfounded objections to CF, tying logic in knots to deny the
> obvious, yet now he expresses no reservations about self-assembling
> chickens. I do not think his endorsement of CF adds credibility to the
> field, and I do not welcome support from people who believe in
> self-assembling chickens, faith healing, ESP, government conspiracies under
> every pillow, and other tales, superstitions, and trash. I personally would
> never give any credence to a pronouncement, report, or opinion expressed by
> Murray. I do not worry that he will hurt the field by supporting it and
> associating it with miracle chickens and faith healing, because I expect he
> will change his mind and go back to attacking it again in a few weeks. I
> hope he does.

Jed, this is too harsh.  Rich does not apply the same skepticism to the
chicken claim as to cold fusion because he has seen more evidence for the
former compared to the latter.  Rejection is always based on what we know.
Typically the unknown is rejected.  A person needs to be very careful in being
sure he knows enough to make a proper rejection.  We are repeatedly presented
with  physicists rejecting cold fusion before they know enough.  We all need
to avoid the same mistake in other areas.

Regards,

Ed Storms




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 17:40:19 1999
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Subject: Re: Carrell: McKubre's success, Arata clarification 6.8.99
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[snip]

> Miley is now able to manufacture replicable cathodes. Stay tuned.
[snip]
Do they happen to include the original copper flashing?


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----- Original Message -----
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
[snip]
> the inlet temperature is compared to the outlet temperature. To
prevent
> changes in ambient temperature from affecting the measurements, the
> equipment was installed in a high precision, insulated hood, with +/-
0.005
> deg C precision control over air temperature." Sounds good to me. Fig.
1
> shows that after the initial heat burst, in the next 25 hours of
operation
> random fluctuations remained between 0.05 and -0.05 watts.
>
> 2. The fact that the same pattern has been observed repeatedly, in 9
out of
> 14 tests. The excess heat appears once, at the beginning of the first
run,
> and never again thereafter. As I see it:
[snip]
This may point to the problem. Perhaps it is a problem with the
experimental procedure.
The air in the hood may still be disturbed at the beginning of the
experiment, just after the cell has been set up.
It may be related to stratification or turbulance in the hood air itself
which is eventually self correcting after things have had a chance to
stabilize.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 19:07:02 1999
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Subject: Voltage may need checking
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I just got off the phone with Mizuno, discussing the upcoming trip and
various other things. I asked him to test the pH of the condensate, to be
sure that no significant amount of water is escaping unboiled. If you
accounted the water as vaporized you would seriously overestimate the
excess heat. He will check, but he does not think this is a problem because
when he runs the cell in the null mode – with a glow discharge but no
excess heat – the energy balance is zero if you assume the water in the
condensate collection dish vaporized completely. I asked how do you run a
null, and he said: "Mainly by voltage. You select a voltage above or below
the critical range. You get a glow discharge, boiling and the other
effects, but no excess." The range is defined in the graph, which I do not
have at hand. I faxed a copy to Scott Little along with the text.

Mizuno wonders why Scott has not seen excess heat. After he made the
comment about voltage I said we should review that with Scott, and I asked
Mizuno to rewrite and expand that section of the Japanese paper, which is
still under construction. Mizuno is having difficulty diagnosing Scott's
experiment by long distance. The web page photos help but they may not be
enough. He said it might be a good idea for him to go to Texas. (College
Station is his home away from home. He still had Texas driver's license a
few years ago.) I think it might be better for Scott to go to Sapporo.
Anyway, let us examine voltage and current density. Mizuno said "those are
the first two things an electrochemist would think of." He believes the
problem is probably electrochemical in nature, although it is hard to say
what it might be. I asked him again if he had a problem with the geometry,
which looks like a big difference to me. He reaffirmed that the photo looks
okay, but maybe a closer look would reveal more. I think he feels the
physical appearance of the glow discharge -- the color, temperature,
stability and so on -- may reveal a great deal, but I do understand the
details. I hope he writes more about this. I believe Scott's discharge is
hidden behind the tubes. He may need to practice a few times out in the open.

As a general rule, I think CF experiments should be done in glassware,
based on the voyeuristic principle: you can learn a lot by watching. Glass
reduces calorimetric accuracy and precision.

Mizuno is amazed and somewhat baffled by Scott's reported heat recovery
rate. Mizuno cannot recover more than 80 ~ 90%. Scott's rate seems
inordinately high, especially when you consider how much energy is lost in
the effluent gas. Tens of watts are also lost to light and electrical
noise. In Scott's case the light would strike the copper, so the energy
would be accounted for.

Next week Mizuno will visit the company in Osaka (the name escapes me -- it
is a big energy utility) which has replicated his results in a large, 4
liter cell. As Scott mentioned, the calorimetry is based on the overall
rise in the electrolyte water temperature. The water is well mixed with a
stirrer. I asked Mizuno if the company scientists have confidence in their
results. He laughed and said maybe too much confidence; he wants to look at
the calorimetry first-hand before making the final judgement call. They are
talking about a joint research project after that, which would be a fine
thing. I should have the details about that experiment in time to publish
along with the paper.

Mizuno has a "first rate" video camera with all the latest gadgets. I think
it is one of these small cartridge high res things. I do not have a video
camera. I don't like ‘em or know anything about ‘em. But someone else will
operate one while I am there taking lessons. I am sure that will help me
translate the subtle details later on. I think the glow discharge itself
will not record well on video. That will take a pyrometer I suppose, or a
spectrometer of some sort? Perhaps you should have one in order to
replicate. That is not spelled out clearly in the paper. It is another area
that needs beefing up.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 19:14:15 1999
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Subject: rigorous evidence for distant prayer healing 6.8.99
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June 8, 1999   Hello Vorts,  I really enjoyed Jed Rothwell's critique
of superstition and espousal of passionate rationalism.  One small
point:  I don't believe in government conspiracies, although certainly
there is a toxic social process worldwide that supports addiction to
tobacco, alcohol, gambling, guns, aspartame, MSG, and milk-meat-fat,
with consequence far more dire than all the wars in this century.
I quote from my very long post on McKubre and many remarkable claims
at SSE last week in Albuquerque: 

Larry Dossey [ LDossey ix.netcom.com ] summarized ongoing
successful studies proving the reality of prayer healing at Duke
University, while Bill Bengston [ bengston aol.com ]
showed slides of mice being healed of cancer by psychic work in
many experiments by briefly trained, skeptical students.

[ Sicher F, Targ E, Moore D 2nd, Smith HS.  A randomized
double-blind study of the effect of distant healing in a population
with advanced AIDS. Report of a small scale study.
West J Med. 1998 Dec; 169(6): 356-63.
Geraldine Brush Cancer Research Institute,
California Pacific Medical Center, San Francisco, USA.   Abstract:
Various forms of distant healing (DH), including prayer and "psychic
healing," are widely practiced, but insufficient formal research has
been done to indicate whether such efforts actually affect health.
We report on a double-blind randomized trial of DH in 40 patients with
advanced AIDS. Subjects were pair-matched for age, CD4+ count, and
number of AIDS-defining illnesses and randomly selected to either 10
weeks of DH treatment or a control group. DH treatment was performed
by self-identified healers representing many different healing and
spiritual traditions. Healers were located throughout the United
States during the study, and subjects and healers never met. Subjects
were assessed by psychometric testing and blood draw at enrollment
and followed for 6 months. At 6 months, a blind medical chart review
found that treatment subjects acquired significantly fewer new
AIDS-defining illnesses (0.1 versus 0.6 per patient, P = 0.04), had
lower illness severity (severity score 0.8 versus 2.65, P = 0.03),
and required significantly fewer doctor visits (9.2 versus 13.0,
P = 0.01), fewer hospitalizations (0.15 versus 0.6, P = 0.04),
and fewer days of hospitalization (0.5 versus 3.4, P = 0.04).
Treated subjects also showed significantly improved mood compared with
controls (Profile of Mood States score -26 versus 14, P = 0.02). There
were no significant differences in CD4+ counts. These data support the
possibility of a DH effect in AIDS and suggest the value of
further research. ]

The differences between the treatment and control groups are massive.
Was all evidence to the contrary supressed by the scientists?  I 
think not, as this was peer-reviewed and published in a reputable
journal. Here is a list of the first articles shown by PubMed
for "West J Med":

    Suchard J.           [See Related Articles] 
     Biological warfare. 
     West J Med. 1999 Apr;170(4):243. No abstract available.
     [MEDLINE record in process]
     PMID: 10344182; UI: 99275650.

    Nolte KB, et al.           [See Related Articles] 
     Death of a truck driver: fatal nicotinamide poisoning associated
     with intravenous drug use. 
     West J Med. 1999 Apr;170(4):242. No abstract available.
     [MEDLINE record in process]
     PMID: 10344181; UI: 99275649.

    [No authors listed]           [See Related Articles] 
     An "old timer" reflects on the use of the "placebo effect". 
     West J Med. 1999 Apr;170(4):235-6. No abstract available.
     [MEDLINE record in process]
     PMID: 10344180; UI: 99275648.

    Karch S.           [See Related Articles] 
     The problem of methamphetamine toxicity. 
     West J Med. 1999 Apr;170(4):232. No abstract available.
     [MEDLINE record in process]
     PMID: 10344179; UI: 99275647.

    Silverman HJ.           [See Related Articles] 
     Description of an ethics curriculum for a medicine residency
     program. 
     West J Med. 1999 Apr;170(4):228-31. 
     [MEDLINE record in process]
     PMID: 10344178; UI: 99275646.

    Vetter RS, et al.           [See Related Articles] 
     Mass envenomations by honey bees and wasps. 
     West J Med. 1999 Apr;170(4):223-7. 
     [MEDLINE record in process]
     PMID: 10344177; UI: 99275645.

    Kim KT, et al.           [See Related Articles] 
     Update on the status of Africanized honey bees in the western
     states. 
     West J Med. 1999 Apr;170(4):220-2. 
     [MEDLINE record in process]
     PMID: 10344176; UI: 99275644.

    Albertson TE, et al.           [See Related Articles] 
     Methamphetamine and the expanding complications of amphetamines. 
     West J Med. 1999 Apr;170(4):214-9. 
     [MEDLINE record in process]
     PMID: 10344175; UI: 99275643.

    Kim C, et al.           [See Related Articles] 
     Type 2 diabetes mellitus in Navajo adolescents. 
     West J Med. 1999 Apr;170(4):210-3. 
     [MEDLINE record in process]
     PMID: 10344174; UI: 99275642.

    Lohiya GS, et al.           [See Related Articles] 
     Fracture epidemiology and control in a developmental center. 
     West J Med. 1999 Apr;170(4):203-9. 
     [MEDLINE record in process]
     PMID: 10344173; UI: 99275641.

    Richards JR, et al.           [See Related Articles] 
     Methamphetamine abuse and emergency department utilization. 
     West J Med. 1999 Apr;170(4):198-202. 
     [MEDLINE record in process]
     PMID: 10344172; UI: 99275640.

    Cheng TO.           [See Related Articles] 
     Cigarette smoking prevention--physicians should teach by example. 
     West J Med. 1999 Mar;170(3):178. No abstract available.
     PMID: 10214109; UI: 99230724.

    White MC.           [See Related Articles] 
     Identifying infectious diseases in prisons: surveillance,
     protection, and intervention. 
     West J Med. 1999 Mar;170(3):177. No abstract available.
     PMID: 10214108; UI: 99230723.

    Litch JA.           [See Related Articles] 
     Endotracheal intubation and mechanical ventilation following
     respiratory arrest from high altitude pulmonary edema. 
     West J Med. 1999 Mar;170(3):174-6. No abstract available.
     PMID: 10214107; UI: 99230722.

    Snell KS, et al.           [See Related Articles] 
     Pathologic fracture occurring 22 years after diagnosis of hairy
     cell leukemia: case report and literature review. 
     West J Med. 1999 Mar;170(3):172-4. No abstract available.
     PMID: 10214106; UI: 99230721.

    Wattoo MA, et al.           [See Related Articles] 
     Alternating transient dense hemiplegia due to episodes of
     hypoglycemia. 
     West J Med. 1999 Mar;170(3):170-1. No abstract available.
     PMID: 10214105; UI: 99230720.

On the face of it, this is a moderately rigorous mainstream journal.

Other studies of distant healing are now available:
     
Altern Ther Health Med 1997 Nov;3(6):74-8 
Evaluating distant healing: a research review. Targ E
Complementary Medicine Research Institute at California Pacific
Medical Center, San Francisco, USA. 

The term "distant healing" describes any purely mental effort
undertaken by one person with the intention to improve physical or
emotional well-being in another. Various forms of distant healing
including prayer and "psychic healing" are widely used throughout
the United States and other parts of the world. There currently
exist numerous, well-controlled experimental trials demonstrating
distant mental effects on humans, animals, and other biological
systems. At this time, however, insufficient formal research trials
have been completed to definitively determine whether such activities
do in fact have a clinical impact independent of psychological effects.
The key in studying the concept of distant healing is separating the
putative distant effect from changes that may be due to causes such as
hope, expectation, relaxation, or other participation activities.
This review discusses some of the most compelling evidence for a
genuine distant healing effect and identifies correctable
methodological issues that frequently confound research in this area. 

Altern Ther Health Med 1997 Nov;3(6):62-73 
Distant intentionality and healing: assessing the evidence.
Schlitz M, Braud W
Institute for Noetic Sciences, Sausalito, Calif., USA. 

Since the 1950s, researchers have attempted to understand reports of
distant or "psychic" healing, developing experimental protocols that
test the distant healing hypothesis by measuring biological changes in
a target system while ruling out suggestion or self-regulation as
counterexplanations. This article provides a brief overview of these
"healing analog" experiments. It also provides a summary and
meta-analysis of 30 formal experiments in which self-reported healers,
"psychics," and other self-selected volunteers attempted to influence
autonomic nervous system activity in a distant person. Results across
the experiments showed a significant and characteristic variation
during distant intentionality periods, compared with randomly
interspersed control periods. Possible alternative explanations for
the reported effects are considered. Finally the implications of
distant intentionality are discussed for an understanding of the
possible mechanisms of distant healing, the nature of the
mind-body relationship, and the role of consciousness in the physical
world.  [Note: "meta-analysis of 30 formal experiments".]

These two reviews have the same problem as do reviews of cold fusion:
any skeptic will assume that the incompentency of the reviewer is
proven a priori by the topic, just as you do with me, Jed.

However, a vast array of anomalies on all levels compels us to enjoy
a radical reformulation of our most cherished concepts of space,
time, reality, causality, and identity.

As one,  Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 19:17:56 1999
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Subject: Re: Message to K. Ota
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>This may point to the problem. Perhaps it is a problem with the
>experimental procedure.
>The air in the hood may still be disturbed at the beginning of the
>experiment, just after the cell has been set up . . .

Probably not, for several reasons:

I do not know the details of this particular hood, but the ones I have seen
have powerful fans inside to ensure a consistant air temperature. I do not
think it would be possible to regulate air temperature to +/- 0.005 deg C
without stirring the air vigorously.

Also, in all CF experiments I have observed, after the cell is physically
installed it takes hours or days of additional preparation and calibration
before an actual run is made. You do not just pop the cell in and crank it
up, unless you are Ed Storms with the famous quick release fast-draw
calorimeter. (Fastest draw in the West.)

The temperature first rises for 2 or 3 hours, then falls. If the air was
gradually stratifying or changing in some other passive manner, I do not
see how this could produce an increase and then a decrease. The stirring
would be at a maximum when the hood was closed and it would only decline
after that, so the curve of the cell heat would be unidirectional (although
not necessarily linear).

Finally, I do not think the air would take 5 hours to settle down and
stratify without a fan.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 19:19:40 1999
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From: "mrand access" <mrand@iols.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Perreault Radiant Energy Manual 3.0.2
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 19:13:02 -0700
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To:  Vortex

Bruce Perreault "Radiant Energy Research Manual
Shareware version 3.0.2"  is now online at:
http://www.cyberportal.net/nuenergy/manual.pdf

His web site:
http://www.cyberportal.net/nuenergy/main.html



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 19:31:19 1999
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Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 22:32:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Brown dwarfs ...Re: Hydrino Theory ?
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y
	Then there you have you leprechauns ...   I favor the elves...

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 19:35:50 1999
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Subject: Re: SSE: McKubre: heat & helium in Case cell . . .
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Ed Storms wrote:

>Jed, this is too harsh.  Rich does not apply the same skepticism to the
>chicken claim as to cold fusion because he has seen more evidence for the
>former compared to the latter.  Rejection is always based on what we know.
>Typically the unknown is rejected.  A person needs to be very careful in 
>being
>sure he knows enough to make a proper rejection.  We are repeatedly presented
>with  physicists rejecting cold fusion before they know enough.  We all need
>to avoid the same mistake in other areas.

Amen to that. With all due respect to my friend and colleague, Jed, I 
find myself agreeing fully with Ed Storms' criticisms of Jed's outright 
dismissal of such matters as ESP, which in particular has been carefully 
investigated by Prof. Robert Jahn , Dr. Brenda Dunne, Drs. York Dobbins 
(a physicist) and Roger Nelson and others at Princeton. They find in the 
affirmative regarding many psychokinetic and ESP phenomena.

And, I do hope that Rich Murray will continue his newly found positive 
attitude toward CF, whatever he may think of the chicken and egg problem. 

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 19:44:23 1999
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Hi John!

You wrote;
>  I have been given this question by my children.  I can’t figure it 
>  out, can you?
>  There are only three words in the English language that end with 
>  “gry”.
>  1.      angry
>  2.      hungry
>  3.      ___gry

Here it is;

http://einstein.et.tudelft.nl/~arlet/puzzles/sol.cgi/language/english/spelling/gry

Aside from "angry" and "hungry" and words derived therefrom, there is
only one word ending with "-gry" in Webster's Third Unabridged: "aggry."
However, this word is defective in that it is part of a phrase "aggry
beads."  The OED's usage examples all talk about "aggry beads."

This is a list of 100 words, phrases and names ending in "gry":
[Explanation of references is given at the end of the list.]

aggry [OED:1:182; W2; W3]
Agry Dagh (Mount Agry) [EB11]
ahungry [OED:1:194; FW; W2]
angry [OED; FW; W2; W3]
anhungry [OED:1:332; W2]
Badagry [Johnston; EB11]
Ballingry [Bartholomew:40; CLG:151; RD:164, pl.49]
begry [OED:1:770,767]
bewgry [OED:1:1160]

etc., etc., etc.................

-- 
           Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker keelynet.com
         http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
      Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 19:47:51 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
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Hi Scott,

        I just took a look at your page again, and looked at the stirrer.
With the bushing bearing being slightly drilled out there is a slight chance
that H2 will exit the cell through there, and that chance will increase the
longer you use it.  Is that stirring motor a brushless motor, I hope?

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 20:27:55 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Mention of Ionisation ,,,Re: Hydrino Theory ?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990608171856.00b3d7d0 spectre.mitre.org>
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y

	Please see note[s] and question [s] in writing, below, some
cuts... Thanks,

			John

On Tue, 8 Jun 1999, Robert I. Eachus wrote:

> At 11:22 AM 6/8/1999 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
> > There is a gap in the numbers of red dwarfs expected. 

	__________________________


 At a certain mass,
> >that something more than conventional fusion is going on in stars (I just
> >happen to think it has to do with a form of spacetime curvature that is
> >tied to the cosmological constant, and not to hydrinos).

	What manner of "something more than conventional" ??  , Please.

    
__________________

>      I agree with......

> >He says they are lighter, so they would float out.
>  
>    If they are lighter, they would float out, but that seems highly
> unlikely.  In the scenario i had in mind, 

	________________________________

........most of the hydrogen is ionized (and part of the plasma).......

	Q:  What is the nature of not ionized plasma? 

	ie.,  Above, this reads:

"..... is ionized (and part of he plasma)..... "

which seems to say there is some aspect of the plasma which is NOT
ionized.   Sounds odd, can you please help out here?  Maybe a typo?

..... while hydrinos are necessarily unionized, and
> would fall inwards.  Remember, part of the assumptions for this are that
> hydrinos are relatively stable, so their interactions with charged ions
> must be small.
> 
>                                         Robert I. Eachus
> 
> with Standard_Disclaimer;
> use  Standard_Disclaimer;
> function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 20:40:32 1999
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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
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Subject: Re: Help........ (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990608151044.3875J-100000 college.antioch-college.edu> from John Schnurer at "Jun 8, 99 03:11:10 pm"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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> There are only three words in the English language that end with 'gry'.
> 1.	angry
> 2.	hungry
> 3.	___gry

I used to have a web site that discussed this "hoax" or "myth."  This
question has been going around for years.  It doesn't happen to be
true, as someone else has posted many english words ending in "gry".

But there are only *two* common words, angry and hungry.


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 20:46:26 1999
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Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 17:44:05 -1000
Subject: Re: Wired News: Moller Volantor about to fly 
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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John -

>  Who is Moll. Volanter?

Someone who thinks a wingless screaming banshee with no sense of balance
makes a nice flying car for you and me. We'll just launch and land in our
back yards. The neighbors won't mind.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 22:40:37 1999
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Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 01:30:23 -0400
From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
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Mitchell,

>> In a resonance it rises and and falls.  With relaxation, which is what
is seen, it rises to an assymptote. <<

That accounts for the phenomenon I witnessed when during a run I got a
sudden rush of sustained current which radiated EM into all the wiring in
the shed and beyond, melted the cb and chips and nearly blew my head off
via the intercom speaker!

Now he tells me !!<G>

So Meyer was getting the ramped rise in separated strings of pulses which
he called resonance, and which produced large Faradic volumes of H2.

Regards and thanks,  Norman Horwood

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 22:41:24 1999
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  8 23:56:22 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
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At 1:30 AM 6/9/99, Norman Horwood wrote:

>That accounts for the phenomenon I witnessed when during a run I got a
>sudden rush of sustained current which radiated EM into all the wiring in
>the shed and beyond, melted the cb and chips and nearly blew my head off
>via the intercom speaker!

I assume you had fish with those chips!

Funny joke, but on this list someone might actually believe you.  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: SSE: McKubre: heat & helium in Case cell . . .
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At 5:22 PM 6/8/99, Jed Rothwell quoted Bacon:

>        The human understanding, when any preposition has been once laid
>        down . . .


Yep, you have to watch those tricky prepositions, they are something you
should never end a sentence with!    8^)

Don't you just love those speakos?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: "JEAN DELAGARDE" <jlagarde cyberaccess.fr>
Subject: PLEC improvements
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PLEC was first presented by Mizuno at ICCF7 in April 1998, that is more
than one year ago. Could Jed tell us to his knowledge what has been
essentially changed or improved in that period of time ?
                                                Jean DeLagarde


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  9 06:29:36 1999
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At 21:59 6/8/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>I think it might be better for Scott to go to Sapporo.

I agree that would probably be substantially more productive.

>I believe Scott's discharge is
>hidden behind the tubes. He may need to practice a few times out in the open.

I do have a somewhat collimated but nonetheless direct view of part of the
cathode during the run.  It's not ideal.

>As a general rule, I think CF experiments should be done in glassware,
>based on the voyeuristic principle: you can learn a lot by watching. Glass
>reduces calorimetric accuracy and precision.

....or quartz.  I'm expecting my quartz beakers this week.

>Mizuno is amazed and somewhat baffled by Scott's reported heat recovery
>rate. Mizuno cannot recover more than 80 ~ 90%. Scott's rate seems
>inordinately high, especially when you consider how much energy is lost in
>the effluent gas. Tens of watts are also lost to light and electrical
>noise. In Scott's case the light would strike the copper, so the energy
>would be accounted for.

My actual recovery is 96% with this particular insulation and the
water-filled heat exchanger.  In the calorimeter software, I multiply the
reported Pout values by 1/0.96 to correct them for the imperfect recovery
before they are plotted.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  9 06:48:48 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: PLEC: mind tricks
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Last week, I did most of the designing of the stirrer for my PLEC cell in
my head while driving home one day.  I can distinctly remember initially
thinking how easy it would be to make it compatible with my calorimetry
since I could probably couple magnetically to the teflon-coated stir bar
through quite a thick piece of styrofoam insulation.  Then it hit me...A
rotating magnetic field inside the cell would surely interfere with the
electrolysis processes in the cell.  Nope! (I said to myself)...I'll have
to use a mechanical stirrer like Mizuno does...must make this a good
replication effort.  

So the next day, I labored a good part of the day to machine the various
parts necessary to mount this little DC motor on top of the cell and
worried about what to make the actual stirrer out of and finally ended up
with an all-Teflon design that was strong enough to survive the stresses of
high-speed rotation.  Runs 3 and 4 were conducted with this stirrer.

Yesterday, in response to Jed's continued reminders, I happened to be
studying Mizuno's drawings of his experiment again.  Imagine my surprise
when I observed that the drawing clearly shows that HE USES A MAGNETIC
STIRRER!  Even his paper in the ICCF-7 proceedings clearly shows a magnetic
stirrer under the cell.

Maybe the rotating magnetic field is IMPORTANT!

Run 5, which will start in about 2.5 hours, will employ a magnetic stirrer
(constructed yesterday!) and a standard teflon-coated stir bar in the
bottom of  the cell.

As a result of this modification, I was able to seal up the gas leak that
the mechanical stirrer's shaft created.  No, Knuke, the experiment didn't
explode! (however, your concern was well-founded).  On this run, I'll be
able to make some gas flow measurements.

I'm using one of our cathodes in Run 5.  I want to see if the mag stirrer
makes it work.  If not, then I'll switch to Mizuno's cathodes.  

BTW, the W wire diameter on Mizuno's cathode is 1.5 mm, not 1.0 mm.  Jed,
you originally wrote (on Wed, 12 May 1999 13:20:23 -0400):

>The cathode is a rectangle, 10 mm by 5 mm, 0.5 mm thick, with a 1 mm
>diameter tungsten lead wire spot-welded on to it.

Has Mizuno revised that to 1.5 mm in the written stuff he's sent you?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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Edmund Storms wrote:

 
> At the risk of losing credibility, I would like to add a few cents worth of
> comments to this discussion.

<snip>

For a man of science, your ability to maintain an open mind is
remarkable.  

The placebo effect alone demonstrates paranormal healing
capabilities, IMO.

Perhaps Jed should study the Kabalah. <g>

Terry

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I just got off the phone with Mizuno, 

<snip>

> The water is well mixed with a
> stirrer. 

<snip>

Is Mizuno's stirrer mechanically or magnetically driven?

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  9 08:08:51 1999
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At 04:58 PM 6/8/1999 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>2. The fact that the same pattern has been observed repeatedly, in 9 out of
>14 tests. The excess heat appears once, at the beginning of the first run,
>and never again thereafter. As I see it:
>
>It could be chemistry, where fuel is consumed and the reaction stops.
 
    Or it could be the energy released as either the deuterium is loaded
into the metal.  Are they correcting for that?  I see no loading numbers,
and the loading is at first exothermic, then endothermic for palladium.

    Or it could be a reaction with contaminants on the surface, such as oil
from fingerprints, that would go away as the electrode was cleaned by the
reaction.  (Probably the most likely in this category is a metal oxide
coating.  The oxygen would become (heavy) water, and there would be no
corresponding electrolysis current.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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Subject: Re: PLEC: mind tricks
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Scott,

Have you had a chance to confirm the purity of your water?  That might be a 
difference between your experiment and Mizuno's and you don't want to waste 
one of your precious Mizuno cathodes.  You sure seem to have covered all the 
rest of the bases.

Think o.u.

Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  9 08:33:17 1999
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Subject: Re: Mention of Ionisation ,,,Re: Hydrino Theory ?
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, John Schnurer <herman@college.antioch-college.edu>
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At 11:29 PM 6/8/1999 -0400, John Schnurer wrote:
 
> At a certain mass,
>> >that something more than conventional fusion is going on in stars (I just
>> >happen to think it has to do with a form of spacetime curvature that is
>> >tied to the cosmological constant, and not to hydrinos).
>
>	What manner of "something more than conventional" ??  , Please.
 
    This question is really directed at Ross, but I can answer I think.
The correct parsing is "conventional fusion."  I assume that this is
referring to hot fusion as opposed to cold fusion, warm fusion (muon as a
catalyst) picofusion (fusion from pressure not temperature), etc.  If the
depths of the sun are turbulent, picofusion could be significant.  But in
the standard model, picofusion does not contribute signficantly to the
sun's energy production.

    Incidently, another frightening possibility is that some of the sun's
heat comes from helium fusion.

>	Q:  What is the nature of not ionized plasma? 

>	ie.,  Above, this reads:

>"..... is ionized (and part of he plasma)..... "
>
>which seems to say there is some aspect of the plasma which is NOT
>ionized.   Sounds odd, can you please help out here?  Maybe a typo?
 
    Plasmas are never completely ionized, and you can have classical plasma
behavior with ionization as low as 5% or so.  For a hydrogen atom to be a
hydrino, it must have at least one electron, so it can't be positively
ionized.  Well maybe you could have h2+ or h3+, but I don't see how that
fits in Mill's theory.  I also don't see anything that would indicate
negatively charged hydrinos (h-).

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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At 11:13 6/9/99 EDT, BriggsRO aol.com wrote:

>Have you had a chance to confirm the purity of your water?

Thanks for the reminder, Bob.  You know there are still all kinds of small
differences between my experiment and Mizuno's.  I'm sending him details of
my water for his reaction.  Will report back here.

FYI, I am using Ozarka brand Distilled Water, which says, "Filtered through
activated carbon. Purified by steam distillation and ozonated.  Source:
Houston Municipal Water Supply."  It is supplied in a HDPE bottle.

Jeez, Houston!....If I'd known THAT....<g>



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: RE: SSE: McKubre: heat & helium in Case cell . . .
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Jed,

How do you explain the Placebo effect?

>To be serious for a moment: I regard faith healing as a repugnant attempt
>to blame the patient for the disease. Superstitious fools who fear disease
>and death want magical control over nature. In every premodern culture they
>invented faith healing, witchcraft, and so on. When he sees a sick person,
>a superstitious person thinks: "It is his fault -- he has no faith. It will
>not happen to me because I have the power to ward off illness." In some
>cases patients do bring disease upon themselves, for example by overeating
>or becoming addicted to tobacco. But a person with cancer, Parkinson's, or
>an infectious disease has no say in the matter and no control. It is
>outrageous, cruel, and uncivilized to tell him he should have had more
>faith, he should have prayed more, it is his fault. In my opinion, that is
>what faith healing boils down to. Genuine, unbiased clinical studies have
>shown no correlation between patient attitude and survival rates,

Just because a prayer isn't answered they way you want,
doesn't mean it wasn't answered.  Maybe the answer was NO.

Bill
webriggs concentric.net

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Subject: PLEC: mind tricks
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Scott Little writes:

	Maybe the rotating magnetic field is IMPORTANT!

I doubt it, but the replication should be made as close to the original as
possible in every detail. Mizuno does not think the differences in the
anode cathode geometry are important, but I would eliminate them. Figure 9
shows the voltage dependency Mizuno discussed last night. Please note that
tungsten samples produce no excess below 75 volts. (The tungsten data
points are marked Wp, meaning tungsten cathode, platinum anode.) The cell
will produce a glow discharge and it will look the same in all respects,
but it will produce no excess energy. As I have noted before, other
critical control parameters are temperature and current density. There is
no significant excess below ~80 deg C. Figure 12b shows the excess energy
dependency on current density, with no detectable excess below 0.8 A/cm2 or
above 1.5 A/cm2.


	Has Mizuno revised that to 1.5 mm in the written stuff he's sent you?

No. The paper and graphs describe experiments performed over the last 6
months, not what he is doing at this moment. Presumably, he used thinner
wire in these experiments.

I do not think the thickness of the lead wire matters much. The joint
between the lead wire and the cathode is critical. Often, contaminants are
introduced when this joint is made.

- Jed

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From: Ross Tessien <Tessien oro.net>
Subject: Re: Mention of Ionisation ,,,Re: Hydrino Theory ?
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At 11:33 AM 6/9/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 11:29 PM 6/8/1999 -0400, John Schnurer wrote:
> 
>> At a certain mass,
>>> >that something more than conventional fusion is going on in stars (I just
>>> >happen to think it has to do with a form of spacetime curvature that is
>>> >tied to the cosmological constant, and not to hydrinos).
>>
>>	What manner of "something more than conventional" ??  , Please.
> 

In the theoretical models I have been developing, I have been forced to
adopt the expectation that mass to energy conversion is an incorrect
interpretation of what happens in fusion reactions ........classical hot,
or IMO it would apply to cold fusion too.

Mass, IMO, is a measure of the amount of aether of the ocean of the
universe that is associated with a specific resonance in that ocean, aka a
particle plus it's fields.  Hence, if some of the mass disappears, it is
because it was shot out via the wave interference pattern, and the
remaining wave was accelerated ..........action reaction like a rocket ship
in a sense.

The resulting expectation, is that when you convert mass into energy, what
you are really doing is converting mass into space.  Hence, you end up with
a spacetime curvature that is in opposition to the presence of mass.

There is astro physical evidence for this spacetime curvature everywhere
you look, if you have this notion in your mind.  You cannot fail to
identify it if you try and if you study astro physics, solar physics,
cosmology, etc. 

That spacetime curvature, which results from the fusion going on in the
sun, is what I was talking about as what must be fixed in GR and QM in
order that we can figure out what the cosmological constant in GR is all
about, and why it must be used to explain cosmology.  That we must also
apply that term right here in our own solar neighborhood is also obvious if
you study coronal mass ejections where the acceleration mechanism is
inertial, and not EM.

rt


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  9 10:40:20 1999
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Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 13:32:11 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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Scott Little writes:

	You know there are still all kinds of small differences between
	my experiment and Mizuno's.

There are huge, obvious differences, particularly in power and geometry,
but we do not know which of these differences are important and which do
not matter. There may be many other critical differences in chemistry and
materials which are not observable with the naked eye. As a replication,
this experiment has barely begun. It might take years to determine the
difference between the experiments, and it might require sophisticated
chemical and physical analysis -- the sort of tests you would need to
replicate a steel alloy, or a particular grade of silicon or plastic. This
is the real world we are talking about. You cannot copy a catalysis
experiment by reading about it and taking a few shots in the dark.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: PLEC: mind tricks
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Scott -

> Maybe the rotating magnetic field is IMPORTANT!

Any serious follower of fringe would have had his ears perked up immediately
by "rotating magnetic fields".

You're SO mainstream.  ;)

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  9 13:14:58 1999
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At 13:32 6/9/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>	You know there are still all kinds of small differences between
>	my experiment and Mizuno's.
>
>There are huge, obvious differences, particularly in power and geometry,

I'm confused (again)....

Regarding geometry, I am using precisely the same size and shape cathode as
Mizuno.  My cell vessel is very similar in diameter to his.  We are both
surrounding the cathode with a large-area cylindrical anode.  In my case,
there are relatively narrow vertical gaps in this cylinder which, as
Michael Schaffer pointed out, will not significantly affect the E field at
the center where the cathode is located.

Regarding power, we are both using a well-regulated DC power supply which,
as Bob Briggs pointed out, has essentially zero output impedance compared
to the cell's impedance.  We are both operating at about the same voltage
and current and our cells draw about the same input power (~100 watts).

What are the huge, obvious differences you see?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  9 15:25:45 1999
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Robert I. Eachus writes:

	Or it could be the energy released as either the deuterium is
	loaded into the metal.  Are they correcting for that?  I see no
	loading numbers, and the loading is at first exothermic, then
	endothermic for palladium.

This is porous nickel, which does not absorb much hydrogen . . . I do not
know how much. This question should be pursued.


	Or it could be a reaction with contaminants on the surface, such
	as oil from fingerprints, that would go away as the electrode
	was cleaned by the reaction.

I doubt it. I believe oil from fingerprints accumulates in nanogram
quantities. It would take 50 milligrams of the most potent oil-based fuel
(gasoline) to produce this much heat.

- Jed
                               

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  9 15:26:04 1999
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Subject: Re: SSE: McKubre: heat & helium in Case cell . . .
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This discussion should probably move to Vortex-Gab, but I will address some
of the serious comments here. Gene Mallove wrote:

	ESP, which in particular has been carefully  investigated by
	Prof. Robert Jahn , Dr. Brenda Dunne, Drs. York Dobbins  (a
	physicist) and Roger Nelson and others at Princeton.

When 10 or 15 other groups independently replicate these effects at a high
signal to noise ratio, I will begin to believe it. I apply the same rule to
CF and other Anomalous Energy claims. Claims made by one group cannot be
trusted, no matter how careful or illustrious the researchers are. This is
the bedrock principle of experimental science. It does not apply to
engineering science where you build computers, bombs, airplanes or
artificial hearts. (Some say it does not apply to high energy particle
physics or astronomy -- one test with one Top Quark machine is supposedly
Good Enough. I can't judge quarks or astronomy.)

I am *far* from believing Ohmori and Mizuno's claims for excess heat from
glow discharge electrolysis. Even if we see it next month, and a fellow in
Osaka sees it, I will still have reservations. I require lots of
convincing. I have a very high threshold of skeptical disbelief. The
anti-CF crowd thinks that they do too, but in fact they will believe any
darn thing at the drop of a hat if it confirms their preconceptions.

I know little about the ESP literature or statistics, but the data in the
papers I have seen appears to be very close to the margin of error. If CF
data was as bad as this after 10 years, I would not believe in CF either.

Ed Storms writes:

	Granted the [chicken] claims are hard to believe, but the
	situation is very similar to cold fusion at the present time.

I strongly disagree! Cold fusion has been widely replicated. The chicken
claims are made by one researcher (as far as I know). When Pons and
Fleischmann alone claimed that cold fusion was real, I did not believe
them. I did not dismiss them as strongly as I dismiss the chicken claims,
but it took many years and many replications before I began to take them
seriously.


	Belief in the claim depends only on whether one can trust the
	individual making the claim.

To me, the individual has nothing to do with it. Three years after cold
fusion, I had no idea whether people like Bockris and McKubre had
credibility. I began to take CF seriously because of the sheer numbers of
people who claimed positive results. I reviewed their papers carefully. I
had to judge the issue solely on the papers, not the personalities, because
I knew nothing about the personalities and I had no way of finding out
before I attended ICCF conferences. There are many cold fusion scientists
who I personally detest and who I would not trust as far as I can throw,
yet I still take their results seriously. Despite their glaring personality
defects and their personal dishonesty, I think they are capable of doing
good work. The same goes for some of the programmers and vendors I have
worked with over the years. I trust their products, but I would never enter
a business venture with them.

People are complicated. They can be smart about Subject X; bigots and liars
when it comes to Y; and superstitious fools about Subject Z. Lots of
otherwise sensible, technically literate people have nutty ideas about the
Y2K problem. (And some people are consistently wrong about X, Y or Z.) You
can never tell where a person's judgment may be flawed. Martin Fleischmann
is one of the most diligent, rigorous, honest scientists I know. But he
believes in some conspiracies theories regarding the suppression of cold
fusion which I think are unfounded. I do not know as much about the inside
history of cold fusion as he does, but I know a lot and I have experienced
some of that history firsthand. Where he sees a pattern of deliberate
suppression, I see incompetence, poor judgement and mistakes, particularly
in the Japanese NHE program. Who could be running this alleged conspiracy?
People like Zimmerman and Park could not mastermind a conspiracy to rob a
gum machine at midnight. They do not act like well-connected, cunning,
clever, organized people. They are a dozen nacho chips short of a platter,
as my sister would say.


	Belief only occurs after one does the experiment one's self or
	by having a friend (a fellow physicist) whom you trust do the
	experiment.

Not in my case. I had no basis for trusting anyone in this field, and
indeed, I don't trust most of the people in it today.


	Either one trusts Lee Pulos or one goes to Brazil or one talks
	to another person who has seen the same or similar phenomena.

Not me! I wait until 10 or 20 other people replicate and publish credible
reports.


	In any case, one should not reject the claim out of hand without
	adopting the same type of attitude which rejects cold fusion,
	for the same reasons.

This is incorrect, and I resent the suggestion that I resemble people who
reject cold fusion. There is an gigantic difference. If I see many claims
that this miraculous chicken experiment has been replicated, I will begin
to believe it might be possible. If I see *enough* credible evidence of
widespread replications, I will believe it no matter how impossible I
previously thought it was. (With this chicken claim, the signal to noise
ratio is irrelevant -- the experiment either works or it doesn't.) I would
never let theories and preconceptions stop me from believing experimental
proof.

"Enough" is a judgement call, but the number of replications would be
somewhere between 20 and 100. It would not be 1,000, whereas ~1,000
replications of CF have made no impression on the hardcore opponents to CF.
Someone Robert Park would not believe in miracle chickens or CF even if
5,000 rock-solid, peer-reviewed replications were published. The data means
nothing to him. He will believe it when the mainstream, big name scientists
in Washington tell him it is true. His standard is whatever the Authorities
and the Textbooks claim at the moment.


	While the claim made by Lee is amazing, similar events have been
	witnessed by many people, some of whom I know and trust.

How many? Where have they published their observations? Did they personally
replicate? "Witnessing" something like this adds little credibility to the
claims because a person who is skilled in sleight of hand tricks can easily
substitute chickens for scrambled eggs.

Rich Murray writes:

	These two reviews have the same problem as do reviews of cold
	fusion: any skeptic will assume that the incompentency of the
	reviewer is proven a priori by the topic, just as you do with
	me, Jed.

Incorrect. I do not judge you a priori by this topic. I reject everything
you say about *all topics*, mundane or exotic, because over the years you
have made many blunders about cold fusion. I concluded you are not capable
of judging any topic in any branch of science.


Bill Briggs and others ask: "How do you explain the Placebo effect?"

1. I think it probably works best with psychosomatic illnesses. I doubt
that it can affect Parkinson's disease, cancer, tuberculosis and other
serious, virulent conditions.

2. It may not exist. Causality is difficult to establish in biology. You
cannot tell whether the patient's mood has improved because the disease is
in remission, or vice versa. The patient himself cannot tell. Suffering is
somewhat subjective. A person who takes a placebo may be inclined to ignore
symptoms which bothered him a half-hour earlier. A person can be
temporarily distracted. I was suffering from an acutely infected tooth last
month, with gangrene, which required an emergency root canal. The bacteria
did not slow down or take a break in their vigorous efforts to expand their
lebensraum, yet when I was driving or taking a bath I did not notice the
pain as much. I am sure my mental attitude had no effect on the progressive
damage that was occurring. My psyche has no influence on the micro-psyches
of *Streptococcus mutans*.

(By the way, if you want to know whether it is a toothache or something
else, take a sip of hot tea and swirl it around in your mouth. Make that a
*small* sip. If it's a real toothache -- wham!)

3. I realize that serious scientific evidence for the placebo effect has
been published in the scientific American and elsewhere. I have not read
the medical literature, so I do not know how widely these results have been
replicated, but medical breakthroughs are among the most fragile. Many
formally widespread theories and treatments in modern medicine have turned
out to be bogus, such as the idea that nervous tension causes ulcers. It is
easier to establish truth or falsehood in chemistry or physics than medicine.

4. Murray cites a study with the statement: "Treated subjects also showed
significantly improved mood compared with controls (Profile of Mood States
score -26 versus 14, P = 0.02)." First, mood is difficult to measure, fancy
metrics and precise values like "-26" are suspect. I do not know much about
statistics, but I doubt that a range of values greater than 5 is
meaningful: excellent, good, normal, bad, awful. Second, mood is important
even when it cannot affect survival. I knew a woman years ago who had a
terminal illness yet who generally exhibited a better mood than other
people show on average over a lifetime and six marriages. She had an
extraordinary ability to overcome adversity, live for the moment, and enjoy
life. Her mood did not change the course of the disease, which killed her
as quickly as it kills most patients, but it did help her cope, and it
helped the survivors. The brave people who stood by in orderly ranks when
the Birkenhead and the Titanic sank did not slow the flooding. Their
attitude had no effect on the ships' buoyancy, and they drowned just as
quickly as the people who lost their heads. But their "mood" helped other
people escape because they did not swamp the lifeboats.

5. The clinical studies I read about in the New York Times (which I cannot
cite, unfortunately) showed no significant difference in the long term
survival rates of people who had positive optimistic attitudes in the early
stages of disease as compared to people who were pessimistic at those same
stages. The placebo effect may relieve short-term symptoms without
affecting the long-term prognosis. For that matter, a visit from grandchild
or a walk in the park will cheer up many patients and make them feel better
for the rest of the day, even though it does nothing to prevent a crisis
the next day. Death rates among seriously ill patients decrease before
holidays, graduations, weddings, family reunions and other "long-awaited
events," and then the rates increase after the events. This indicates that
people do have some measure of short-term control over disease. You can
stave off death for a few days or a week, but probably not much longer. I
believe the statistics show the death rate is normal roughly a week before
and after these "awaited events." That probably indicates the maximum
duration of the placebo effect.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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Scott Little wrote:

>Regarding geometry, I am using precisely the same size and shape cathode as
>Mizuno.

I meant the size, shape and position of the anode. But Mizuno says it
shouldn't matter so I don't know what to think. He could be wrong. McKubre,
Bockris and many others have told me about the importance of geometry and
field in electrochemistry, but I am sorry to say their discussions are over
my head.


In my case,
>there are relatively narrow vertical gaps in this cylinder which, as
>Michael Schaffer pointed out, will not significantly affect the E field at
>the center where the cathode is located.

Maybe not. Maybe if you study this for six months you will find --
surprise, suprise -- they do. I just read a book about the development of
the maser and laser, and in one instance they screwed around with two metal
rings for many months before finding out that those rings, which were
supposed to help, were acutally preventing the reaction from occuring and
had to be dispensed with.

The devil is in the details. Read about how the first electric motors were
developed. Read about how long it took the Wrights to devise the verticle
tail, and how close they came to killing themselves before they did it. One
tiny mistake in a machine can easily make the machine fail, and you can
overlook the  mistake for weeks, or months. A slight change in the wing
pitch (or a layer of ice to change the shape) and your airplane falls out
of the sky.





>Regarding power, we are both using a well-regulated DC power supply which,
>as Bob Briggs pointed out, has essentially zero output impedance compared
>to the cell's impedance.

I am not expert on power, but I can see that your power profile is totally
different from Mizuno's. Again, he thinks it does not matter, so I don't
know what to think.

We have not even begun to look at the glow discharge plasma, have we. We
know nothing about Mizuno's, or yours. How long do you suppose it would
take to learn about the structure, temperature, and elements in it? How
long has it taken the hot fusion people to get a handle on their big plasma
blobs? Yours is smaller, but that does not mean it must be simpler, or
easier to control. This is terra incognito -- we have not even looked at
the problem -- and the plasma is literally central to the effect.


>What are the huge, obvious differences you see?

The ones I listed above, and there could be 10 or 100 more. Plus you are
using different cell materials.

If you do not know what I mean, I strongly recommend you read the
electrochemical papers describing this phonomenon, and spend a few days
with someone like Bockris or a plasma physicist. You cannot discuss it with
Mizuno because of the language gap.

I promise you: you could easily devote a lifetime to the mysteries and
complexities of this one phonomenon, and you will still find surprises 50
years later. People are still learning amazing things about petrochemical
combustion in ICE engine cylinders. That is one of the most deeply
researched topics in history, but it holds many surprises and you could not
master it in the time you have devoted to this replication. I repeat: you
have hardly begun. As it happens, you have already reached territory in
physics and chemistry which are way over my head, so I cannot help you.
That is why I suggest you read the literature and talk to experts who can.
I might know more about this after I spend some intense hours watching
Mizuno, but my knowledge will be strictly procedural "cookbook" learning --
no help to someone who wants to try it with even the *slightest* variation
in materials or conditions. I will be able to tell you how Mizuno operates
*his* machine, not how to make another one similar to it, with different
reagents, glass, geometry, etc. I have zero grasp of the essential
electrochemical and chemical fundamentals which govern this reaction. You
will have learn those fundamentals before you have any hope of success.

- Jed

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From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: Re: SSE: McKubre: heat & helium in Case cell . . .
References: <3.0.6.32.19990608121819.007bb540 pop.mindspring.com> <375DB002.D035F22@ix.netcom.com> <375E7C01.B98B491D@bellsouth.net>
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Terry Blanton wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
>
> > At the risk of losing credibility, I would like to add a few cents worth of
> > comments to this discussion.
>
> For a man of science, your ability to maintain an open mind is
> remarkable.

Thanks, but I had the simple minded idea this is the way scientists should
behave.  Until CF came alone, I had no reason to doubt everyone was open to new
ideas much of the time, except perhaps with religion and politics.  Imagine my
surprise.

> The placebo effect alone demonstrates paranormal healing
> capabilities, IMO.

Good point, but the effect appears to even more complex than that.

Regards,
Ed




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Subject: Re: SSE: McKubre: heat & helium in Case cell . . .
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At 05:52 PM 6/9/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:

>
>> The placebo effect alone demonstrates paranormal healing
>> capabilities, IMO.
>
>Good point, but the effect appears to even more complex than that.


  True.  For example, taking a placebo might change
the levels of stress hormones in an individuals.
It could go either way, too.
The individual might be more, or less, nervous.  Those materials
alone (epinephrine a.k.a. adrenaline, cortisol) have great impact
and diverse effects.

 For example: Surgeons begin ops at 7:30 AM because the
stress hormones, which increase the likelihood of the patients
surviving the surgery, peak a few hours before.
{and which is why resident rounds start at 3:30-4AM, ;-)X  

  OTH, the hormaones also descrease the threshold to infectious
disease like herpes which is everywhere, and in almost
every human being, giving that organism the edge
enabling recurrences during times of great stress.

  The normal biochemical pathways ought be included
before ascribing influence to less likely, but possible,
ones.

    Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  9 17:53:47 1999
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From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.19990609122211.007a4d40 pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: PLEC: hydrinos?
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:44:15 +1000
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The fourth ionization energy of tungsten is about 35.23 eV. The first is
about 7.98 eV. The difference is 27.25 eV, or just .05 eV greater than
the ideal "electron hole" for a Mills type process. At 80 °C, kT = .03
eV which could make up the difference, especially given that the
ionization energies are a little uncertain. This would seem to imply the
possibility of a Mills type reaction like:

H + W+ + W+++ ----> Hy + W + W++++ followed by

W + W++++ ----> W+ + W+++ + 27.25 eV

While W+ is not a common oxidation state of tungsten, it may well be
created temporarily in the energetic sparking environment of this type
of reactor.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  9 18:28:16 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC: hydrinos?
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
the ideal "electron hole" for a Mills type process. At 80 °C, kT = .03

That should have been "energy hole" (to busy thinking of energy in terms
of eVs ;).
Also if you use 3/2kT instead, then you get .045 eV which is even
closer.
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  9 20:03:46 1999
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Subject: Re: SSE: McKubre: heat & helium in Case cell . . .
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 99 23:00:35 -0000
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Ed Storms wrote:

>Thanks, but I had the simple minded idea this is the way scientists should
>behave.  Until CF came alone, I had no reason to doubt everyone was open 
>to new
>ideas much of the time, except perhaps with religion and politics.  
>Imagine my
>surprise.


Ed and I were similarly surprised and dismayed.  I am no longer suprised 
by the close-minded ness and bigotry toward  new ideas of so-called 
"scientists." In fact, ironically, these people are some of the most 
close-minded people on the planet. They have credentials that suposedly 
make them more "objective" than the non-credentialed. That myth will be 
utterly destroyed by the cold fusion victory, however long that takes to 
come. I might be wrong -- it may be that it will still be "business as 
usual" in the hallowed halls.

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  9 20:26:42 1999
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Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 20:41:05 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: Re: SSE: McKubre: heat & helium in Case cell . . .
References: <3.0.6.32.19990609182345.007a66b0 pop.mindspring.com>
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Jed,

You make an interesting distinction between what a person rejects and
how willing a person is to accept new information about such a rejected
belief.  You say you do not believe much of what is claimed in CF and in
other "far out" subjects, but you are willing to accept supporting
evidence, in contrast to the CF skeptics.  I agree, this is a very
reasonable approach which I largely share.

On the other hand, I suggest disbelief is a matter of degree.  If the
disbelief is too strong, no amount of supporting information will have
an effect, but if  disbelief is too weak, even garbage will be
accepted.  Most of us fall into some middle region with a tendency to
appear more discriminating than we actually are.  Unfortunately, no
objective and quantified measurement about degree of disbelief is
available while each of us thinks our degree is the best.  This being
the case, I believe it is worth giving each person the benefit of doubt
as to their actual degree and assume each person is doing the best job
of accepting they can.  I know some people are dishonest in this area,
but that is the risk we all take in every aspect of life.  For myself, I
would rather risk some garbage provided I can acquire a few important
ideas, rather than reject every "far out" idea to protect myself from
the chance of believing some garbage.  It's just a matter of style.

Best regards,

Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  9 21:23:07 1999
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Subject: Re: SSE: McKubre: heat & helium in Case cell . . .
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>Ed and I were similarly surprised and dismayed.  I am no longer suprised 
>by the close-minded ness and bigotry toward  new ideas of so-called 
>"scientists." In fact, ironically, these people are some of the most 
>close-minded people on the planet. They have credentials that suposedly 
>make them more "objective" than the non-credentialed. That myth will be 
>utterly destroyed by the cold fusion victory, however long that takes to 
>come. I might be wrong -- it may be that it will still be "business as 
>usual" in the hallowed halls.
>
>Gene Mallove

The state universtities have become brokerages for intellectual property.
Since funding for education has been cut so severely, schools have turned to
selling or licensing patents and technologies.  PhDs are now the employees
of corporations, and behave in the corporations' best interest.  It's been
that way for some time now, and I'm surprised that no one has mentioned it.
They make no attempt to hide it, indeed, they actually advertise.  There is
much more to that story, but it is obviously a bad situation for anyone
outside the corporate power loop.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  9 22:47:14 1999
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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 01:45:54 -0400
From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
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Horace,

>> Funny joke, but on this list someone might actually believe you.  8^) <<

It wasn't funny at the time chum!! I reported the event to Gene, Chris and
Jed and they thought that I had hit the jackpot.  Unfortunately all that
had happened was that I'd hit a resonance in the circuit and had forgotten
to screen the leads into the af amp which then screamed up with +ve
feed-back and blew everything in sight.

Norman Horwood

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  9 22:49:51 1999
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From: Ross Tessien <Tessien oro.net>
Subject: Re: SSE: McKubre: heat & helium in Case cell . . .
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At 11:00 PM 6/9/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Ed Storms wrote:
>
>>Thanks, but I had the simple minded idea this is the way scientists should
>>behave.  Until CF came alone, I had no reason to doubt everyone was open 
>>to new
>>ideas much of the time, except perhaps with religion and politics.  
>>Imagine my
>>surprise.
>
>
>Ed and I were similarly surprised and dismayed.  I am no longer suprised 
>by the close-minded ness and bigotry toward  new ideas of so-called 
>"scientists." In fact, ironically, these people are some of the most 
>close-minded people on the planet. 

Try even discussing an aether theory to explain the wierd observations of
inertial accelerations of coronal mass ejections at a SOHO physics
conference and the physicists conveniently need to go meet with someone
else immediately.  They aren't even subtle.  I would say that one out of 5
was courteous about not being intersted, and 1 out of 100 would actually
show a bit of interest.  A couple actually have sent some information, but
for the most part, silence.

Aether theories in solar physics are about as popular as cold fusion in the
laser ICF control room.

rt


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Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 23:03:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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Scott Little wrote:

>FYI, I am using Ozarka brand Distilled Water, which says, "Filtered
>through
>activated carbon. Purified by steam distillation and ozonated.  Source:
>Houston Municipal Water Supply."  It is supplied in a HDPE bottle.

   I don't know if water purity is important to the experiment or not.
"Deionized" water is supposed to be the purest water, in the sense of
chemical purity, that you can buy off the supermarket shelf.
===
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  9 23:25:56 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
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At 1:45 AM 6/10/99, Norman Horwood wrote:
>Horace,
>
>>> Funny joke, but on this list someone might actually believe you.  8^) <<
>
>It wasn't funny at the time chum!! I reported the event to Gene, Chris and
>Jed and they thought that I had hit the jackpot.  Unfortunately all that
>had happened was that I'd hit a resonance in the circuit and had forgotten
>to screen the leads into the af amp which then screamed up with +ve
>feed-back and blew everything in sight.

Oh, sorry, I thought it was just a joke!  Yes, it *does* sound like you may
have struck a magic chord.  All you need now is to have Elisabth Shue check
it out for you.  8^)

Did you ever try reconstructing and running at that resonant frequency?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  9 23:26:54 1999
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Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 22:59:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Mention of Ionisation ,,,Re: Hydrino Theory ?
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Robert I. Eachus wrote:

>    This question is really directed at Ross, but I can answer I think.
>The correct parsing is "conventional fusion."  I assume that this is
>referring to hot fusion as opposed to cold fusion, warm fusion (muon as a
>catalyst) picofusion (fusion from pressure not temperature), etc.  

   The word is "pycnofusion", where pycno means dense. Pycnofusion occurs
at extraordiarily high densities at low temperatures. To my knowledge the
conditions for pycnofusion have never been achieved on earth. It is "known"
only by theoretical calculation.

>If the
>depths of the sun are turbulent, picofusion could be significant.  But in
>he standard model, picofusion does not contribute signficantly to the
>sun's energy production.

   The sun is far, far too underdense for pycnofusion.
===
Michael J. Schaffer


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 05:32:00 1999
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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 07:16:09 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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At 23:03 6/9/99 -0700, Michael Schaffer wrote:

>   I don't know if water purity is important to the experiment or not.
>"Deionized" water is supposed to be the purest water, in the sense of
>chemical purity, that you can buy off the supermarket shelf.

Thanks, Michael, I was wondering which of the two (distilled vs DI) was
better.

Mizuno responded to my questions last night and said he thinks my distilled
water is just fine and that my ACS grade K2CO3 is essentially identical to
the stuff he's using (for the excess heat effect).

I may try some DI water anyway....

Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 05:32:36 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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At 18:46 6/9/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>....electrochemical and chemical fundamentals which govern this reaction. You
>will have learn those fundamentals before you have any hope of success.

I know a good deal about those fundamentals.  I have studied Bockris'
"Modern Electrochemistry" and Moore's "Physical Chemistry" for countless
hours...but I can find no way to apply the information therein to make the
present experiment produce excess heat.  As far as I can tell, my
experiment is working exactly as those books predicted it would.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 07:00:59 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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At 07:33 AM 6/10/99 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>At 18:46 6/9/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>>....electrochemical and chemical fundamentals which govern this reaction.
You
>>will have learn those fundamentals before you have any hope of success.
>
>I know a good deal about those fundamentals.  I have studied Bockris'
>"Modern Electrochemistry" and Moore's "Physical Chemistry" for countless
>hours...but I can find no way to apply the information therein to make the
>present experiment produce excess heat.  As far as I can tell, my
>experiment is working exactly as those books predicted it would.

Scott:

   Why dont you do some science here?  You could measure your
output power gain (with an appropriate calibration pulse
as we discussed before) for BOTH DI and distilled and whatever
solution.  You would  see directly the relative impact of each.
That would push the advancement of the field
for your setup, whatever that might ultimately be.

   Have a good day.

   Mitchell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 07:32:49 1999
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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:29:35 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: PLEC: Run 5
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Run 5 was completed yesterday.  Results are at:

http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/run5.html

The report includes a close-up view of the cathode during incandescence, a
photo of the magnetic stirrer we made, some rather interesting gas-flow
measurements, and a photo of our venerable Mettler H6 (recent acquisition)
which revealed that only 2 milligrams of salt left the cell through the gas
flow tube during this run.

Apparently doggedly adhering to some stuffy old principles of physics, the
measured heat output power was essentially EQUAL to the measured electrical
input power!....8(



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 09:04:31 1999
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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:00:44 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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Scott Little writes:

	I know a good deal about those fundamentals.  I have studied
	Bockris' "Modern Electrochemistry" and Moore's "Physical
	Chemistry" for countless hours...but I can find no way to apply
	the information therein to make the present experiment produce
	excess heat.   As far as I can tell, my experiment is working
	exactly as those books predicted it would.

Well, since I am not an electrochemist and I know practically nothing about
those fundamentals, I'm not qualified to address this question. But that
has never stopped me before! I'll take a shot at it. Start with the last
sentence: "the experiment is working exactly as the books predicted." How
would that be? How exactly is it working? The literature on this phenomenon
describes a reaction which can occur in many different ways, at different
temperatures, with different reaction products and complex control
parameters. In the 1950s Sengupta, Hickling and a number of other
scientists devoted several years to explicating the reaction. Mizuno cites
these papers in the footnotes I posted here previously. I will attach them
again. All I can tell you about this literature is that it is over my head.
If you want a replicate Mizuno's reaction from scratch, you will have to
master this literature.

Frankly, I am surprised that a person who knows "a good deal about"
electrochem would overlook how complex the glow discharge reaction is.

In other words, you are getting ahead of yourself. Of course you will find
no way to apply the literature and textbooks to making excess heat.
Obviously not, since no one before 1998 knew there could be excess heat
from this reaction, no one ever commented on it. (The only literature
describing the heat is what Mizuno himself has written, and I have already
e-mailed you the relevant paragraphs.) You will not find a map for an
unexplored wilderness. The best you can hope for is a map showing the edges
of the known world. Working with the literature, and consulting with an
experienced electrochemist, you can learn how to recreate the
electrochemical and plasma conditions. That is the first step. You can
learn what governs the plasma (or discharge, or whatever it is), what
elements are involved, and what temperatures and other conditions can be
expected under varying conditions. Once have mastered the conventional
electrical, electrochemical and material issues, you will be close to
replicating the excess heat -- assuming this is genuine cold fusion heat
and not an instrument artifact.

By the way, if it is an instrument artifact, you will have to concentrate
on the instruments in order to replicate it. Some people think that an
"artifact" means "an effect you cannot replicate." Actually, artifacts are
easier to reproduce than real excess heat.

Let us have another look at this statement, "I can find no way to apply the
information . . . to produce excess heat." As I said, there is no such
information in the literature because the literature was written 45 years
before the heat effect was discovered. You would not expect to find
information on nuclear power reactors in textbooks written in 1895. On the
other hand, you would find plenty of information about construction,
metallurgy, refining and purifying materials, and perhaps a lot of useful
information about prospecting uranium ore. You could not construct a
fission power reactor if you did not know what the scientists and engineers
knew back in 1895. Furthermore, strictly speaking, you do not need
information about how to produce excess heat. It would be helpful, but you
do not need to know what causes the excess heat. People who successfully
replicate conventional palladium cold fusion today have no idea what causes
the nuclearactive special condition of matter. All they understand -- and
all they need to understand -- is how to replicate the electrochemical
conditions and how to select the right kind of palladium. I say that is
"all they need," but actually, that's a lot! Most people who have attempted
to replicate cold fusion have not taken these first steps. In particular,
they have no idea how to t select materials. Morrison and a few other
skeptics have attended conference after conference where materials were the
main issue, yet they completely overlook it! This is like attending eight
years of medical school and never learning that bacteria cause infection.
Even smart people who read this forum frequently have overlooked the
fundamentals. The other day, Bill Briggs wrote about Melvin Miles:

	Has anyone looked for a pattern?  In any of the CF experiments
	that have had any positive results has anyone charted the
	successes and failures in relation to time.  Then tried to find
	a correlation to anything outside of the test environment.  For
	instance in relation to solar or lunar cycles.

With all due respect, the pattern is obvious. You can't miss it! It is like
looking at an aerial photograph of Manhattan and wondering if there is a
pattern to the streets and avenues. The positive results correlate to
particular sources of palladium; the negative results correlate to other
sources. Seven out of 8 samples of NRL (Naval Research Lab) Pd-B alloy
produced significant heat. Zero out of 9 NRL Pd and Pd-Ag samples produced
heat. Four out of 4 Johnson Matthey Type A palladium samples for Uncle
Martin produced heat; 0 out 6 WESGO samples worked. Results with other
sources of palladium were mixed, but I think this is an unmistakable pattern:

NRL Pd-B, 7/8 88% success
J-M Type A, 4/4 100% success
NRL other, 0/9 0% success
WESGO, 0/6 0% success

Why should anyone look for a correlation outside of the test environment
when a single, well defined factor inside the test environment correlate so
closely with success and failure? Without knowing anything about these
materials, based on the numbers alone, you can safely conclude that
materials are the key. Then you can read what Fleischmann, Storms, Mizuno,
Cravens and others have to say about materials, and you will learn the
detailed underlying reasons why some materials work and others do not. That
is how you learn to do cold fusion -- not by studying "solar or lunar
cycles," musicology, hieroglyphics, or the Dow Jones Industrial Average.

Here are the references to the original literature on glow discharge
electrolysis:

10. A. Hickling, Modern Aspects of Electrochemistry No. 6, Ed. by J. O'M
Bockris and B. E. Conway, Plenum Press, New York (1971) 329-373

11. S. K. Sengupta and O. P. Singh, J. Electroanal. Chem., 301 (1991) 189

12. S. K. Sengupta and O. P. Singh and A. K. Srivastava, J. Electrochem.
Soc., 145 (1998) 2209

13. Jasnogorodski I. S., Elektrolytishes Harten, (1951)

14. Polakowski N. H., Met. Plogr., 67 (1955) 98

15. Shigeo Ohwaku and Kazuo Kuroyanagi, J. J. Met. Soc. 20, (1955) 63-70


Please note the reference to masers I mentioned the other day: "How the
laser happened: Adventures of a Scientist," by Charles H. Townes. As I
said, they wasted several months trying to fit rings into the prototype,
before they found out the machine worked better without them. In the early
days of railroads, some people went to enormous trouble designing wheels
with spikes and rails with carefully spaced holes where the spikes would
fit in. They thought that smooth, round steel wheels placed on steel rails
would not develop enough traction to move a heavy train. They were trying
to solve a nonexistent problem. Prototype designs are usually more complex
than they need to be. People solve problems that do not require a solution,
while they overlook other problems which do need attention.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 09:18:53 1999
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From: "Thomas N. Claytor" <claytor lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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Scott, 
Pay a little more and get the HPLC water from Fisher. 4 liters, $50 but
it's clean.
Tom.
At 07:16 AM 6/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>At 23:03 6/9/99 -0700, Michael Schaffer wrote:
>
>>   I don't know if water purity is important to the experiment or not.
>>"Deionized" water is supposed to be the purest water, in the sense of
>>chemical purity, that you can buy off the supermarket shelf.
>
>Thanks, Michael, I was wondering which of the two (distilled vs DI) was
>better.
>
>Mizuno responded to my questions last night and said he thinks my distilled
>water is just fine and that my ACS grade K2CO3 is essentially identical to
>the stuff he's using (for the excess heat effect).
>
>I may try some DI water anyway....
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
> 
http://www.nde.lanl.gov/staff/claytor/claytor.htm
Thomas N. Claytor	Claytor lanl.gov
Los Alamos National Laboratory
ESA-MT, MS C914
Los Alamos NM, 87545
505-667-6216 voice
505-665-7176 fax

Shipping Address:
Thomas N. Claytor
Los Alamos National Lab
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Attention: Drop Point 01S



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 09:19:19 1999
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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:22:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Lage cut ..Re: SSE: McKubre: heat :: ESP :::
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	Dear Vo.,


	See note, below at flag........ big cut


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 18:23:45 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SSE: McKubre: heat & helium in Case cell . . .
Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 15:24:24 -0700
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com

_________________   FLAG   _______________________

This discussion should probably move to Vortex-Gab, but I will address some
of the serious comments here. Gene Mallove wrote:

	ESP, which in particular has been carefully  investigated by
	Prof. Robert Jahn , Dr. Brenda Dunne, Drs. York Dobbins  (a
	physicist) and Roger Nelson and others at Princeton.

	NOTE:

	ESP research is controversial and has  several investigatiors....

	By analogy.... Jahn and Dunne have ONE vested method-idea ...and
work only with it.... and do not and will not consider other
method-ideas...    
	The 'general analog' with 'other energy' investigators is similar
to researchers who only work with and explain effects with 'scalar'  or
only with 'ZPE' ....

	Opinion:

	Investigators who are 'one track' will be at a disadvantage to
those who are open minded.

	The same goes for information....  If you come across an
interesting idea, bit of work, method-idea, such as ESP, or CF .... it
behooves the investigator to at least TRY to gain a brief overview of more
than one method-idea-view point.

					JHS

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 09:31:09 1999
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Subject: ESP (was SSE: McKubre: heat & helium in Case cell . . .)
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At 06:23 PM 6/9/1999 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>I know little about the ESP literature or statistics, but the data in the
>papers I have seen appears to be very close to the margin of error. If CF
>data was as bad as this after 10 years, I would not believe in CF either.
 
    Let me tell you of my experience, and you can judge the situation for
yourself.  When I was in high school, I decided to do a science project on
ESP.  I got some Rhine decks and started doing experiments with other
family members.  With my father, one sister, and myself, the results were
much greater than chance.  In fact during this part of the data gathering
phase there were several runs with 18 or more cards guessed right.  But
there were some puzzling facts.  In the runs where no one looked at the
cards before they were guessed, the results were close to random, but when
the examiner looked at the cards the numbers were significantly higher, but
there were correlations to the time of day and the room use.  A little more
massaging of the data, and there were three distinct sets: daylight,
fluorescent, and incandescent or candles.  (Several times we did the
experiments at the dinner table, and the lighting was from candlesticks on
the table.)

    Okay, where do we go from here?  The first thing I did was to run some
experiments where the examiner held the cards up but didn't open his eyes
until the subject had made his or her guess.  No effect, so it wasn't
telepathy or reading reflections off eyeballs.  Next I tried with a solid
metal screen between examiner and subject--anomalous results went away.
Substitute a paper divider, and significance returned.  But--there were
significant correlations between the color of the symbol on the card and
the number of correct guesses.  (All five symbols were a different color,
red, green, blue, yellow, and black, but I can't remember which symbol went
with which card.)  In particular, green and blue were often confused, and
yellow had the lowest success rate.

    Some magnetic property of the pigments?  But I still had those wierd
lighting correlations.  Okay, get some gels, and try different colors and
combinations of filters over the lights.  Got it, but we hadn't gotten very
far  when my mother came in the room and said that she thought we were
trying different colors of light, not working in the dark.  Hmmm.  Get a
spectrophotometer--it helps that the family business is industrial
lighting--and find that the two filters we were using only passed light in
the mid-infrared and near ultraviolet.  Okay set up a different experiment.
 Yes, the three of us could see in both those frequencies, and the cards
were translucent in certain areas of the the infared.  (The card stock
fluoresed mildly when illuminated with ultraviolet.)  So get a block of
mineral that passed only infared, put it in front of a 500 watt quartz
halogen lamp with light baffles on the vents, and Judy, my father and I
could read a book in a room that others swore was pitch dark.  (And we
could also see the heat plume from the vent.)

    Okay, so do my father, my sister, and I have ESP or not?  I think the
answer has to be that we do, but that what I discovered was a completely
understandable and explainable phenomenum.  There were residuals in the
experiments that couldn't be explained by this, but not enough to draw
conclusions without a complete redesign and repeat of the experiment.  (By
this time I had spent three months on it.)  The demo in class was really
fun.  There was a windowless room next to the physics lab.  I used some
black tape to make a good door seal, and took in the IR source.  I could
see fine in a room that to the others was pitch black, so I wonder about
some of these seances held in darkened rooms. ;-)


                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 10:02:18 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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At 12:00 6/10/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>If you want a replicate Mizuno's reaction from scratch, you will have to
>master this literature.

Jed, that simply incorrect. I just need to replicate his procedure.  It
wouldn't matter if I couldn't even spell "electrochemistry", provided I
performed the experiment correctly.  I'll agree that a background in
electrochemistry would help one avoid stupid mistakes but it is by no means
required.

>By the way, if it is an instrument artifact, you will have to concentrate
>on the instruments in order to replicate it.

I'm glad to see you mentioning this possibility.

>People solve problems that do not require a solution,
>while they overlook other problems which do need attention.

True.  This difficulty is especially applicable to my present situation,
since Mizuno is half-way around the world from me.  I'm sending him every
detail I can think of and asking about every little thing that comes to
mind...but the real problem is probably just lying there waiting for him to
see instantly if he were in our lab...or vice versa.

Tom Claytor:  I'm ordering some HPLC water today!  Thanks.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 10:02:18 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 13:05:29 -0400
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>Scott, 
>Pay a little more and get the HPLC water from Fisher. 4 liters, $50 but
>it's clean.
>Tom.

Consumer Reports Magazine ran a series of tests on off-the-shelf bottled
mineral waters, and distilled waters to see if the content actually matched
the labels.  Results varied widely between brands, but some brands did
consistently score well in distillation.  A local EPA testing lab can run a
complete set of tests on a sample for under $100 to determine if the brand
that you are using is properly distilled.  If it is, then you can probably
get away with the cheap stuff.  Most EPA testing facilities also have their
own high quality distillering machines, and may just give you a gallon for
research purposes.  Many hospitals have this ability as well.  Make friends
with the lab personnel, and you'll learn a lot about the proper handling of
samples, etc., plus a lot of stuff that you might not want to know about
your drinking water.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 11:04:34 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990610120256.00a83e18 mail.eden.com>
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Scott Little writes:

>Jed, that simply incorrect. I just need to replicate his procedure.  It
>wouldn't matter if I couldn't even spell "electrochemistry", provided I
>performed the experiment correctly.

That's absurd. How can you tell whether you replicated the procedure
without knowing the relevant electrochemistry?!? That's like me saying I
can debug this program although I do not happen to know COBOL. Furthermore,
this is a brand new discovery. Nobody on earth, including Mizuno, can say
exactly what constitutes a replication. He cannot even replicate himself
sometimes. It works about 70% of the time. He doesn't know why it fails, so
how could *you* know? By ESP?


>I'll agree that a background in
>electrochemistry would help one avoid stupid mistakes but it is by no means
>required.

It is absolutely, positively essential. "Help one avoid" does not cover it.
You will, definitely, make many stupid mistakes in this experiment even if
your name happens to be J. O'M Bockris. Mizuno spent months making stupid
mistakes before it began to work reliably. Without deep electrochem.
knowledge and experience, this is like trying to perform surgery with no
medical training. Every time I discuss any aspect of this experiment with
Mizuno or Ohmori, after three minutes they leave me behind in a thicket of
electrochemical terms and concepts.

I conclude that you have no idea what you are trying to accomplish, and no
idea how difficult and complex this field is. It makes me wonder where you
were during those lectures at ICCF. You talk as if this was a Heathkit
electronics project with instructions included. That's crazy! Read the book
by Charles Townes. He won the Nobel for inventing masers and lasers. He
says things like (to paraphrase), 'we decided to replicate the experiment,
but it was rush job; we had only a year and a half.' He means that it took
him and a team of graduate students 18 months to build a new kind of laser
-- which you or even I could build in a couple of days now. (Years later,
Townes' friend make a laser out of jello -- which he then ate.) It has
become easy because lasers are now well understood and described in the
textbooks, and parts are available that meet the proper specifications.
When Townes was building and replicating the first ones back in 1960, there
were no specifications and it took him months to figure out, one step at a
time, how to do it. You are in the same situation with the glow discharge
reaction.



>True.  This difficulty is especially applicable to my present situation,
>since Mizuno is half-way around the world from me.  I'm sending him every
>detail I can think of and asking about every little thing that comes to
>mind...

Oh Come On!!! For crying out loud! You have not even asked him the
temperature and spectrum (color) of the glow discharge! You have no idea
why the power profile is different -- and Mizuno does not know either. You
have not even scratched the surface of the problem, or the cathode, for
that matter. (That can be an effective way to promote or prevent loading.)
A process like this has to be broken down into dozens of steps and
procedures, and each aspect  including materials, temperature, pressure,
water purity, and whatnot has to be understood in terms of chemistry and
physics, and then tested in real life. Why do you think it takes these
people so long to do these experiments? Do you think they are sitting
around playing video games?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 11:11:10 1999
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Subject: RE: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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Vortex,

This is one of the best general posts I have seen in a good while (with no
offfense at all intended to our friend, Scott Little).  It is no small
wonder that in the recent IE reader survey, Jed Rothwell was way out in
front in the favorite author category.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell infinite-energy.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 1999 12:01 PM
> To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
>
>
> Scott Little writes:
>
> 	I know a good deal about those fundamentals.  I have studied
> 	Bockris' "Modern Electrochemistry" and Moore's "Physical
> 	Chemistry" for countless hours...but I can find no way to apply
> 	the information therein to make the present experiment produce
> 	excess heat.   As far as I can tell, my experiment is working
> 	exactly as those books predicted it would.
>
> Well, since I am not an electrochemist and I know practically
> nothing about
> those fundamentals, I'm not qualified to address this question. But that
> has never stopped me before! I'll take a shot at it. Start with the last
> sentence: "the experiment is working exactly as the books predicted." How
> would that be? How exactly is it working? The literature on this
> phenomenon
> describes a reaction which can occur in many different ways, at different
> temperatures, with different reaction products and complex control
> parameters. In the 1950s Sengupta, Hickling and a number of other
> scientists devoted several years to explicating the reaction. Mizuno cites
> these papers in the footnotes I posted here previously. I will attach them
> again. All I can tell you about this literature is that it is
> over my head.
> If you want a replicate Mizuno's reaction from scratch, you will have to
> master this literature.
>
> Frankly, I am surprised that a person who knows "a good deal about"
> electrochem would overlook how complex the glow discharge reaction is.
>
> In other words, you are getting ahead of yourself. Of course you will find
> no way to apply the literature and textbooks to making excess heat.
> Obviously not, since no one before 1998 knew there could be excess heat
> from this reaction, no one ever commented on it. (The only literature
> describing the heat is what Mizuno himself has written, and I have already
> e-mailed you the relevant paragraphs.) You will not find a map for an
> unexplored wilderness. The best you can hope for is a map showing
> the edges
> of the known world. Working with the literature, and consulting with an
> experienced electrochemist, you can learn how to recreate the
> electrochemical and plasma conditions. That is the first step. You can
> learn what governs the plasma (or discharge, or whatever it is), what
> elements are involved, and what temperatures and other conditions can be
> expected under varying conditions. Once have mastered the conventional
> electrical, electrochemical and material issues, you will be close to
> replicating the excess heat -- assuming this is genuine cold fusion heat
> and not an instrument artifact.
>
> By the way, if it is an instrument artifact, you will have to concentrate
> on the instruments in order to replicate it. Some people think that an
> "artifact" means "an effect you cannot replicate." Actually, artifacts are
> easier to reproduce than real excess heat.
>
> Let us have another look at this statement, "I can find no way to
> apply the
> information . . . to produce excess heat." As I said, there is no such
> information in the literature because the literature was written 45 years
> before the heat effect was discovered. You would not expect to find
> information on nuclear power reactors in textbooks written in 1895. On the
> other hand, you would find plenty of information about construction,
> metallurgy, refining and purifying materials, and perhaps a lot of useful
> information about prospecting uranium ore. You could not construct a
> fission power reactor if you did not know what the scientists and
> engineers
> knew back in 1895. Furthermore, strictly speaking, you do not need
> information about how to produce excess heat. It would be helpful, but you
> do not need to know what causes the excess heat. People who successfully
> replicate conventional palladium cold fusion today have no idea
> what causes
> the nuclearactive special condition of matter. All they understand -- and
> all they need to understand -- is how to replicate the electrochemical
> conditions and how to select the right kind of palladium. I say that is
> "all they need," but actually, that's a lot! Most people who have
> attempted
> to replicate cold fusion have not taken these first steps. In particular,
> they have no idea how to t select materials. Morrison and a few other
> skeptics have attended conference after conference where
> materials were the
> main issue, yet they completely overlook it! This is like attending eight
> years of medical school and never learning that bacteria cause infection.
> Even smart people who read this forum frequently have overlooked the
> fundamentals. The other day, Bill Briggs wrote about Melvin Miles:
>
> 	Has anyone looked for a pattern?  In any of the CF experiments
> 	that have had any positive results has anyone charted the
> 	successes and failures in relation to time.  Then tried to find
> 	a correlation to anything outside of the test environment.  For
> 	instance in relation to solar or lunar cycles.
>
> With all due respect, the pattern is obvious. You can't miss it!
> It is like
> looking at an aerial photograph of Manhattan and wondering if there is a
> pattern to the streets and avenues. The positive results correlate to
> particular sources of palladium; the negative results correlate to other
> sources. Seven out of 8 samples of NRL (Naval Research Lab) Pd-B alloy
> produced significant heat. Zero out of 9 NRL Pd and Pd-Ag samples produced
> heat. Four out of 4 Johnson Matthey Type A palladium samples for Uncle
> Martin produced heat; 0 out 6 WESGO samples worked. Results with other
> sources of palladium were mixed, but I think this is an
> unmistakable pattern:
>
> NRL Pd-B, 7/8 88% success
> J-M Type A, 4/4 100% success
> NRL other, 0/9 0% success
> WESGO, 0/6 0% success
>
> Why should anyone look for a correlation outside of the test environment
> when a single, well defined factor inside the test environment
> correlate so
> closely with success and failure? Without knowing anything about these
> materials, based on the numbers alone, you can safely conclude that
> materials are the key. Then you can read what Fleischmann, Storms, Mizuno,
> Cravens and others have to say about materials, and you will learn the
> detailed underlying reasons why some materials work and others do
> not. That
> is how you learn to do cold fusion -- not by studying "solar or lunar
> cycles," musicology, hieroglyphics, or the Dow Jones Industrial Average.
>
> Here are the references to the original literature on glow discharge
> electrolysis:
>
> 10. A. Hickling, Modern Aspects of Electrochemistry No. 6, Ed. by J. O'M
> Bockris and B. E. Conway, Plenum Press, New York (1971) 329-373
>
> 11. S. K. Sengupta and O. P. Singh, J. Electroanal. Chem., 301 (1991) 189
>
> 12. S. K. Sengupta and O. P. Singh and A. K. Srivastava, J. Electrochem.
> Soc., 145 (1998) 2209
>
> 13. Jasnogorodski I. S., Elektrolytishes Harten, (1951)
>
> 14. Polakowski N. H., Met. Plogr., 67 (1955) 98
>
> 15. Shigeo Ohwaku and Kazuo Kuroyanagi, J. J. Met. Soc. 20, (1955) 63-70
>
>
> Please note the reference to masers I mentioned the other day: "How the
> laser happened: Adventures of a Scientist," by Charles H. Townes. As I
> said, they wasted several months trying to fit rings into the prototype,
> before they found out the machine worked better without them. In the early
> days of railroads, some people went to enormous trouble designing wheels
> with spikes and rails with carefully spaced holes where the spikes would
> fit in. They thought that smooth, round steel wheels placed on steel rails
> would not develop enough traction to move a heavy train. They were trying
> to solve a nonexistent problem. Prototype designs are usually more complex
> than they need to be. People solve problems that do not require a
> solution,
> while they overlook other problems which do need attention.
>
> - Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 11:16:12 1999
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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:14:37 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990610140201.0079aad0 pop.mindspring.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.19990610120256.00a83e18 mail.eden.com>
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I wrote: 

>When Townes was building and replicating the first ones back in 1960, there
>were no specifications and it took him months to figure out, one step at a
>time, how to do it.

To be specific, they did not know the precise formulas for effective
rubies, which are aluminum oxide with traces of iron, magnesia, or silica.
They kept coming up with rubies that were too dark or too light. Townes'
daughter made jewelry out of the rejects. It was materials problem, similar
to the ones CF scientists often deal with.

Of course, there were other problems, but this one sticks in my mind
because it reminds me of difficulties with semiconductors and CF.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 11:32:33 1999
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Religious science (was Re: SSE: McKubre: heat & helium in Case
  cell). . .
In-Reply-To: <199906100259.WAA20439 mercury.mv.net>
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At 11:00 PM 6/9/1999 -0000, E.F. Mallove wrote:
 
>Ed and I were similarly surprised and dismayed.  I am no longer suprised 
>by the close-minded ness and bigotry toward  new ideas of so-called 
>"scientists." In fact, ironically, these people are some of the most 
>close-minded people on the planet. They have credentials that suposedly 
>make them more "objective" than the non-credentialed. That myth will be 
>utterly destroyed by the cold fusion victory, however long that takes to 
>come. I might be wrong -- it may be that it will still be "business as 
>usual" in the hallowed halls.

    It still moves.
 
    But if Galileo, isn't a good counterexample, there's Semmelweiss
(doctor's spreading puperal fever by not washing their hands), the age of
the Earth (for that matter the age of the Universe), Continental Drift
(Wegner), asteroid impact killing the dinosaurs (for that matter, that
Barringer crater was caused by a meteorite), the Wright brothers (not
flying, that was no big deal, but that planes could be designed to be
stable), Thomas Edison, Nikolas Tesla, etc. The answer always is that THIS
time we may have been wrong, but nobody's perfect.  No, I take that back,
there are two answers, and the other is literally "over my dead body."
Galileo vs. the church and opposition to quantum mechanics are just two
examples of that attitude.

    The reality is that if you discover something new, you may get away
with it, you may even get rich. But challenge the entrenched religion, and
it doesn't matter how many Nobel Prizes you have, you will be called a
kook. For example, the pasting Linus Pauling took for saying that vitamin C
could be used to prevent or treat common colds.  And if you think that cold
fusion has it tough, look at what is happening to doctors that don't
believe that HIV causes AIDS. (This is in spite of the fact that a
signifcant percentage of AIDS patients never test positive for HIV, and
that the best current treatments for AIDS do not target HIV.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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At 10:59 PM 6/9/1999 -0700, Michael Schaffer wrote:

>>If the
>>depths of the sun are turbulent, picofusion could be significant.  But in
>>he standard model, picofusion does not contribute signficantly to the
>>sun's energy production.

>   The sun is far, far too underdense for pycnofusion.

    How do you know?  Because the standard model tells you so.

    I'm not trying to be sarcastic.  The only direct measurements of events
deep in the sun are the neutrino experiments, and they don't agree with the
standard model.  Some "alternative" models have more turbulence and mixing
between layers, creating a cooler, denser core.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 12:20:08 1999
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What is Col. Philip Corso talking about in his book "The Day after Roswell"?

He says that the ion drive was invented as a result of reverse-engineering
of alien technology.

What is an ion drive?

Can it be the same technology as the EHD/ARDA?

David

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 12:39:37 1999
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Scott and Jed,

Scott, I agree with Jed that the system is too complex to know which
variables are important, especially because no models exist.  However, I
would like to suggest several factors based on previous work which might
be important.

1. The anomalous nuclear reactions only occur in solids, not in a
plasma.  Therefore, the nature of the plasma is only a means to an end.
What is the end?

2. Two general types of solids have been found to work.  These are
either metals which take up high concentrations of deuterium or
hydrogen, or oxides through which a spark discharge is caused to pass,
such as in the LENT-1 cell.

3.  None of the materials in the Mizuno cell will react with hydrogen.
However, tungsten will react with oxygen to form a dielectric layer.
Consequently, the cell appears to have the features of a LENT- cell.
However, unlike ZrO2 which forms in the LENT-1 cell, the tungsten oxide
(WO3) is volatile at high temperatures.  I suggest the narrow
temperature range required is caused by the need for sufficient
temperature at the W surface to cause WO3 formation, but not too high a
temperature which would cause its vaporization.  I suggest you should
periodically examine the surface of the tungsten electrode for the
presence of a colored layer.  Preheating the tungsten electrode in air
will also form this layer and may allow the effect to occur
immediately.  The cell resistance should also give an indication if an
insulating layer should form. Just a thought.

Regards,
Ed Storms



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 12:40:33 1999
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Subject: Re: ESP
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That's a great story! You did this in high school? I hope you got an A++.

This may be the only solid, documented, real case of Extra Sensory
Perception on record. It isn't quite what the enthusiasts have in mind, but
it is extra, and sensory, so it passes the test. I had no idea the human
eye can work at near ultraviolet wavelengths. I wonder what the textbooks
say about that.

- Jed



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 13:08:12 1999
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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At 02:14 PM 6/10/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>I wrote: 
>
>>When Townes was building and replicating the first ones back in 1960, there
>>were no specifications and it took him months to figure out, one step at a
>>time, how to do it.
>
>To be specific, they did not know the precise formulas for effective
>rubies, which are aluminum oxide with traces of iron, magnesia, or silica.


   Actually, rubies are chromium doped, Jed.  And the magnesium adds a
horrible
green color, but they are less likely to explode from thermal heterogeneity
IMO.    Titanium doping makes a sapphire.

   Silica is in emeralds, grown by a totally different method.
   I've grown rubies and sapphires, Jed, hot stuff.  Used a trilaminar
tube (O2,H2,Al2O3-Cr) for a boule rate of about a cm/hr.


>Of course, there were other problems, but this one sticks in my mind
>because it reminds me of difficulties with semiconductors and CF.


    The Group IV materials have crystals which are generally grown by a 
different method involving zone refining.

   Hope that helps.
    Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 13:40:31 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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At 13:36 6/10/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:

>I suggest the narrow
>temperature range required is caused by the need for sufficient
>temperature at the W surface to cause WO3 formation, but not too high a
>temperature which would cause its vaporization.

Sounds reasonable.  

BTW, can you explain the mechanism by which the W cathode can oxidize in
this cell?  Is is just a spontaneous reaction that occurs when hot W metal
contacts H2O?

>I suggest you should
>periodically examine the surface of the tungsten electrode for the
>presence of a colored layer.

A colored layer forms quickly (minutes) upon removing the W cathode from
the final etch in aqua regia.  I have mentioned this to Mizuno and his only
comment was that he was not concerned about it...i.e. he didn't think it
would interfere with the excess heat effect.

>Preheating the tungsten electrode in air
>will also form this layer and may allow the effect to occur
>immediately.  The cell resistance should also give an indication if an
>insulating layer should form.

I'll pay more attention to the initial cell resistance in the future.  One
way I could surely form an oxide layer on the cathode is to operate the
cell in reverse for a while.  When I did that accidentally at the start of
this series of experiments, the cell resistance was very high.

Thanks.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 13:58:13 1999
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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:55:28 -0400
From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
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Horace,

>> Did you ever try reconstructing and running at that resonant frequency?
<<

Yes, but since the rebuild could not be identical I never struck the same
overall conditions so couldn't replicate (how unusual, where have I heard
that before? ;^)

Regards,  Norman Horwood.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 14:38:18 1999
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	 <3.0.6.32.19990610140201.0079aad0 pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.1.32.19990610153913.00a81c94@mail.eden.com>
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Scott Little wrote:

> BTW, can you explain the mechanism by which the W cathode can oxidize in
> this cell?  Is is just a spontaneous reaction that occurs when hot W metal
> contacts H2O?

As long as hydrogen is being produced by electrolysis at the W electrode, I
see no way for WO3 to form.  However, you are producing a plasma rather than
electrolysis.  If the process requires a dielectric layer, then I must make
several assumptions.  I suspect the plasma may interfere with electrolysis
such that intervals exist during which the environment surrounding the W
surface is oxygen rich.  The challenge is to have the environment be oxygen
rich for a longer time than it is hydrogen rich.  On the other hand, I would
prefer W be the anode and a sufficient voltage be applied to allow spark
penetration of the oxide layer.  This arrangement would make the setup like
LENT-1 but not like Mizuno, unfortunately.  Have you asked Mizuno why he used
this arrangement in the first place?

>
> >A colored layer forms quickly (minutes) upon removing the W cathode from
> the final etch in aqua regia.  I have mentioned this to Mizuno and his only
> comment was that he was not concerned about it...i.e. he didn't think it
> would interfere with the excess heat effect.

This observation is odd.  Aqua Regia will clean W but it should not reoxidize
provided all of the acid has been removed.  Do you wash the W in hot water
after cleaning?

Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 15:22:59 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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At 01:36 PM 6/10/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:
>Scott and Jed,
>
>Scott, I agree with Jed that the system is too complex to know which
>variables are important, especially because no models exist.  However, I
>would like to suggest several factors based on previous work which might
>be important.

  Models do exist.  Some overlap. 
 The problem is they are rarely considered and applied.


>1. The anomalous nuclear reactions only occur in solids, not in a
>plasma.  Therefore, the nature of the plasma is only a means to an end.
>What is the end?
>
>2. Two general types of solids have been found to work.  These are
>either metals which take up high concentrations of deuterium or
>hydrogen, or oxides through which a spark discharge is caused to pass,
>such as in the LENT-1 cell.
>
>3.  None of the materials in the Mizuno cell will react with hydrogen.
>However, tungsten will react with oxygen to form a dielectric layer.
>Consequently, the cell appears to have the features of a LENT- cell.
>However, unlike ZrO2 which forms in the LENT-1 cell, the tungsten oxide
>(WO3) is volatile at high temperatures.  I suggest the narrow
>temperature range required is caused by the need for sufficient
>temperature at the W surface to cause WO3 formation, but not too high a
>temperature which would cause its vaporization.  I suggest you should
>periodically examine the surface of the tungsten electrode for the
>presence of a colored layer.  Preheating the tungsten electrode in air
>will also form this layer and may allow the effect to occur
>immediately.  The cell resistance should also give an indication if an
>insulating layer should form. Just a thought.


 The above points by Edmund are good and should be supplemented 
by engineering, core thermometry/calorimetry matters, 
other corrision and Q/C issues, some of which are unfortunately
overlooked -- as are the material science above [and the
nuclear, lattice, loading and other issues]. 

   IMHO the models, like the complicated math, do exist
and are a sine qua non for a more rationale investigation
of these systems.    [Hildebrand and integral equations;
                     don't leave home without them  ;-)X


  Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 17:17:26 1999
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Subject: Abolafia's Invention
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:25:17 -0000
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From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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All,

I just spoke with  inventor Andrew Abolafia at the phone number listed in 
the message below, which someone else sent me.  Andrew studied physics at 
Columbia University but dropped out in his third year. He has quite a lot 
of good background in industry and in programming.  He has done much work 
in cryogenics and superconductivity

Unfortunately, he has made no prototype of his device, but he HAS 
interested top people at the IEEE, who are talking with him about testing 
the concept. It requires cryogenics.  Apparently they think well enough 
of it -- he says -- to be contemplating a replication.  He says that the 
energy production is based on standard physics and that the calculations 
prove that the device will work as advertised.  he also told me that he 
has an ad in this month's IEEE spectrum, to make the world aware of his 
claims.  He is IEEE member #430-232-98, for what that is worth.

I told him the usual: IF a positive test is made that we can have 100% 
confidence in, then his money worries are over.

I would like Jeff Kooistra, Mike Carrell, and perhaps others to call him 
and find out more.

Much can be gleaned from his www site at 

www.inventor1-y2k.com

The US patent is there in full, #5710531

Vortex folk should run through his calculations to see whether there is 
anything that should be dug into soon.

Best,

Gene 

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

Ph:  603-228-4516
Fax: 603-224-5975

editor infinite-energy.com
www.infinite-energy.com



[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][
][]
[][][][][][][][][]

NEW INVENTION SAID TO "MAKE FOSSIL FUELS OBSOLETE"

A Business Wire announcement dated May 27, 1999 states that a new 
invention 
called the Static Field Converter uses permanent magnets as a "safe, 
virtually infinite, environmentally benign and economically viable new 
source 
of energy."
       Inventor Andrew Abolafia, "a member of the Federation of American 
Scientists and the IEEE," says his Static Field Converter "ends the 
self-destructive path of pollution caused by the burning of fossil fuels. 
It 
can be used as a substitute for fossil fuels in any application -- from 
powering electric vehicles to heating homes, running factories and 
fueling 
planes."
       GSReport is aware of several other claimed energy devices based on 
permanent magnets that do not perform as advertised. It remains to be 
seen if 
the Abolafia device represents a true breakthrough. Meanwhile, the patent 
for 
the Static Field Converter, as well as a practical engineering design, 
can be 
viewed at http://inventor1-y2k.com.
       The Andrew Abolafia Co. is located in Granville, New York. Andrew 
Abolafia can be contacted by telephone at 518-632-9193 or by email at 
andrew inventor1-y2k.com.

[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][
][]
[][][][][][][][][]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 18:01:16 1999
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At 03:34 PM 6/10/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:

>Have you asked Mizuno why he used
>this arrangement in the first place?

No...that never crossed my mind!

>Aqua Regia will clean W but it should not reoxidize
>provided all of the acid has been removed.  Do you wash the W in hot water
>after cleaning?

Not hot water, just a pretty thorough rinsing (a full minute) in a flowing
stream of room temp distilled water.  Is that likely to be insufficient?


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

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Subject: Eachus: more on infrared & UV vision 6.10.99
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Subject: Re: Eachus: ESP via infrared vision 6.10.99
   Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 17:51:54 -0400

     Well if you want to send this to the debunkers be my guest, but
they should already be aware of part of it.  During WWII, a method was
needed to guide boats to the shores of occupied territories to
rendezvous with resistance fighters.  The scheme that was used was very
clever.  People who had cataract operations are able to well in the
ultraviolet if they have the right replacement lenses.  At that time
it was possible to shine an ultraviolet light out to sea, that could
only be seen by someone who had had the surgery.  (Remember the TV
cameras of the age, even if someone mounted one on a boat, were not
all that sensitive.)  So many special operations missions depended
on people in their sixties and seventies to guide them to shore.
Of course, the assumption was that it was highly unlikely that
someone who had had a cataract operation would be in the
German military or even a crewmember on a freighter.

     Oh, and one other magic trick I can do.  The average person can
distinguish two colors that are 25% apart in saturation, and do
do somewhat better on hue.  People in certain fields such as color
matching, fabric dyeing or photolithography tend to average better
sensitivity, about 15%. My father and I can detect much more subtle
differences.  In fact, on one occasion I can remember, we were looking
at, and seeing high and low spots in the illumination of a flat white
surface.  We got the light source adjusted to less than five percent
difference between the brightest and dimmest areas.  Incidently, I
know that I inhertited this from my father's father.  He and Norm
Macbeth among other things developed a tool called a Chromocritic
to help people in the printing industry to match light sources
so that they viewed transparencies with the same color light.
(And if you need a VERY sensitive light meter, I can probably still
sell you an Eachus Associates Photometer, with better than 1%
(full range) accuracy, and five linear sensitivities scales from
1200 to 0.12 foot candles full scale.  I once used one to determine
the light transmission of some black plastic. It was supposed to
have a density of 6.0.  In other words to reduce the incoming light
by a factor of one million.  I measured the density at 5.4, so we
sent it back.  But the interesting thing was that I could use the
same meter to measure the light on both sides.  And read the meter
by the light shining through the plastic. (Actually more likely by
the infrared--the light on the other side was bright enought to heat
the plastic. ;-)
                    Robert I. Eachus
with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 18:36:01 1999
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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:33:32 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
References: <3.0.6.32.19990610120044.007bf7c0 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <3.0.6.32.19990610140201.0079aad0 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <3.0.1.32.19990610153913.00a81c94 mail.eden.com> <3.0.5.32.19990610195857.0090b5f0@mail.eden.com>
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> Scott,
>
> Not hot water, just a pretty thorough rinsing (a full minute) in a flowing
> stream of room temp distilled water.  Is that likely to be insufficient?

I suggest you wipe the sample with acetone after rinsing with water.  This
should remove any residual chlorides which might be retained by the surface.

Ed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 19:06:11 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "VORTEX" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Abolafia's Invention
In-Reply-To: <199906102323.TAA29363 mercury.mv.net>
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I thought we'd already discarded Abolafia....right, George?

At 07:25 PM 6/10/99 -0000, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>Unfortunately, he has made no prototype of his device, but he HAS 
>interested top people at the IEEE....

He must have found some folks at IEEE who don't know anything about
electromagnetics.  

Abolafia's concept is flawed and his calculations are wrong.  The concept
involves using a rotating superconductor to alternately shield and unshield
a permanent magnet so that its flux can alternately penetrate and not
penetrate a coil, thus inducing an alternating  current in the coil.  He
ignores the totally conservative forces that will be exerted on the moving
SC as it rotates, and that is the fundamental problem with his concept.  If
actually constructed he would find that it takes just a little more power
to rotate the SC than the device produces.

In his calculations of the expected energy output, he takes the total
energy content of the permanent magnet and makes the erroneous assumption
that his device can extract that amount of energy from the magnet once
EVERY revolution!!!  In actuality he could only extract that energy
ONCE....then it would be gone.   Disregarding conservation of energy, he
comes up with a whopping 45 kilowatts theoretical power output for a
fist-sized device!  It's 
no wonder he's got everybody who can't see through it drooling with
anticipation.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 20:08:54 1999
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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199906110305.WAA20242 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Is the ion drive EHD/ARDA?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990610211852.00a29120 mail.bahnhof.se> from David Jonsson at "Jun 10, 99 09:18:52 pm"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 22:05:57 -0500 (CDT)
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David wrote:

> What is Col. Philip Corso talking about in his book "The Day after Roswell"?

He was talking about stuff he made up to generate some income from
a fantasy book.

> He says that the ion drive was invented as a result of reverse-engineering
> of alien technology.

He said that about every modern invention (since 1947.)   Not only did
practically every technical invention since 1947 originate from analysis
of a crashed saucer, but he personally was the one who was supposedly
instructed by his (military/government) boss to meet with technical
companies and hand out all these amazing discoveries.

But of course, there were histories pre-1947 leading up to all these
inventions, so an alternate explanation is that there were no saucer
secrets distributed by him, but rather, these ideas evolved as the
natural progression of human scientific advancements.

I will now await to be stoned for my scepticism of Corso.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 20:11:27 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: ESP
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 22:16:08 -0400
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>That's a great story! You did this in high school? I hope you got an A++.
>
>This may be the only solid, documented, real case of Extra Sensory
>Perception on record. It isn't quite what the enthusiasts have in mind, but
>it is extra, and sensory, so it passes the test. I had no idea the human
>eye can work at near ultraviolet wavelengths. I wonder what the textbooks
>say about that.
>
>- Jed

It's called night vision.  If you spend 8 hours a day working in a photolab
darkroom, developing film or paper, you can actually develop the talent.  If
you are running in and out of darkrooms, you can learn to adjust your eyes
pretty quickly to widen and narrow the visible light spectrum.  There are
some touch capabilities that can be overdeveloped as well.  It's not
uncommon in that industry.  I've met some people with such extraordinary
capabilities that if I didn't see them do it myself, I wouldn't believe it.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 20:29:09 1999
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Subject: Re: Mention of Ionisation ,,,Re: Hydrino Theory ?
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 23:25:02 -0000
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>  I'm not trying to be sarcastic.  The only direct measurements of events
>deep in the sun are the neutrino experiments, and they don't agree with the
>standard model.  Some "alternative" models have more turbulence and mixing
>between layers, creating a cooler, denser core.
>
>                                        Robert I. Eachus


Robert,

Could you kindly provide me with some of your best technical references 
to some of the "alternative" models for solar core nuclear reactions?  I 
have been puzzled by the bandwagon for finding unconventional 
explanations for the dearth of solar neutrino flux -- the neutrino 
oscillation models -- while seeming to discount possible radical 
reformulation of solar core physics.

Thanks!

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 21:09:14 1999
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 00:02:28 EDT
Subject: Re: H2K: HV Power Supply
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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All,

For the past couple of weeks I have been attempting to sort out
the characteristics of the ignition transformer HV power supply.
This thing is a beast, very powerful, produces a spectacular
light show in the tube, but _very_ difficult to get accurate 
power input data due to it's internal construction with magnetic
shunts and all. So....

Today I installed a small HV supply, rated 4.3 kVAC, 
0.00096 amp output supply. (0.96 milliamps)
I connected a 431 Kohm load across the HV output as follows:

               421 Kohm          10 Kohm
HV o------/\/\/\/\/\/\/\-----o-----/\/\/\/\/\/\------o(A)o------o Gnd
                                     |___(o'scope)__|

The output of the HV supply is a  400 Hz _triangle_ wave
that measured on the scope across the 10 Kohm resistor
at 11 volts peak to peak and current measures at (A) was
0.00235 amp (2.35 milliamps).  (A) is a true RMS DMM.
The power input to the supply was measured with the
watt-hour meter at 15.68 watts at 120 volts.
This power supply is rated at 100 VAC input and comes
supplied with a 121 ohm  10 watt resistor for the input.
The resistor is sizzle hot when running. (wet finger method) 
So how am I getting 2.3 milliamps out of a 0.96 milliamp rated
supply?  dunno...overloading perhaps...

So now the question:
What is the HV power output into the above load?

I also connected it to the glow discharge tube, no heat
measurement, just to see what the discharge looked like
and while a lot less spectacular than the ignition transformer,
it produced a very stable glow discharge with _no_ electrical
noise to foul the instruments. Much cooler running also but
much easier to get stable data. The glow lost stability at fill
pressures >50 torr but shortening the electrode gap from
1 inch to 0.75 inch may help that. BTW, the scope picture
looked something like this across the glow tube at 400 Hz:

_/\_  _/\_
       \/
The scope picture across the 10 Kohm resistor was 
an ordinary triangle wave at 400 Hz:   /\/\/\/\/\/\
I am considering trying a laser power supply that H & R
sells for 40 bucks. It's a flyback type kit that will have the
advantage of the availability of both AC and DC outputs.
It's rated (DC) 5 kV at 0.005 amp, unknown output
if just AC is used.

Comments, suggestions are most welcome.  Thanks.

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas
702-254-2122

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 22:44:32 1999
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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 21:45:39 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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At 1:36 PM 6/10/99, Edmund Storms wrote:
[snip]
>I suggest the narrow
>temperature range required is caused by the need for sufficient
>temperature at the W surface to cause WO3 formation, but not too high a
>temperature which would cause its vaporization.  I suggest you should
>periodically examine the surface of the tungsten electrode for the
>presence of a colored layer.  Preheating the tungsten electrode in air
>will also form this layer and may allow the effect to occur
>immediately.  The cell resistance should also give an indication if an
>insulating layer should form. Just a thought.


If this hypothesis of WO3 formation is correct then putting your scope in
x-y mode, showing current vs voltage across the cell, will show this or any
other any dielectric formation clearly and dynamically by the changing
phase shift.  Using this method I could clearly see a dielectric film
formation on Zr electrodes via the phase shift due to the increasing
capacitance of the plates.  Another way migth be to track RMS voltage and
RMS current vs the true integrated power, thus permitting you to calculate
the power factor directly, and thus the capacitance.  Knowing the
capacitance change lets you then determine what part of the impedence
change is due to resistance drop (or increase), which should be from a
different mechanism, probably a change in the nature of the discharge,
assuming the electrodes do not move, or possibly the deposition of a
semiconducting film.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 23:14:39 1999
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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   At 09:45 PM 6/10/99 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>At 1:36 PM 6/10/99, Edmund Storms wrote:
>[snip]
>>I suggest the narrow
>>temperature range required is caused by the need for sufficient
>>temperature at the W surface to cause WO3 formation, but not too high a
>>temperature which would cause its vaporization.  I suggest you should
>>periodically examine the surface of the tungsten electrode for the
>>presence of a colored layer.  Preheating the tungsten electrode in air
>>will also form this layer and may allow the effect to occur
>>immediately.  The cell resistance should also give an indication if an
>>insulating layer should form. Just a thought.
>
>
>If this hypothesis of WO3 formation is correct then putting your scope in
>x-y mode, showing current vs voltage across the cell, will show this or any
>other any dielectric formation clearly and dynamically by the changing
>phase shift.  Using this method I could clearly see a dielectric film
>formation on Zr electrodes via the phase shift due to the increasing
>capacitance of the plates.  Another way migth be to track RMS voltage and
>RMS current vs the true integrated power, thus permitting you to calculate
>the power factor directly, and thus the capacitance.  Knowing the
>capacitance change lets you then determine what part of the impedence
>change is due to resistance drop (or increase), which should be from a
>different mechanism, probably a change in the nature of the discharge,
>assuming the electrodes do not move, or possibly the deposition of a
>semiconducting film.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner   


  Horace:

   A clever method and, like Edmund's comment, worth doing.  
There are limitations because unfortunately the changes in phase shift
(or loss tangent, or ratio of k'/k'' ) are non-specific.
Double layers, low dielectric constant layers in front of the
electrodes (gases), and falls of ions at the electrodes all
contribute. As with all such transconduction/polarization 
systems, it would be helpful if we knew the distribution of
the electrical field intensity after the voltage is applied and
the system responds. [There is also the matter that lumped parameter
models are mere approximations to the material science involved . ;-)X

  Best wishes.

   Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 10 23:32:27 1999
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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 22:28:56 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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Scott,

More food for thought:

In the event you don't get your cell to replicate Ohmuri's, and you go
Japan, one thing you might want to monitor is cell RF radiation. The
critical factor could be a something small, like the capacitance of the
insulation on the cathode lead.

In fact, if you put your copper coil around Ohmouri's cell, and it quits
functioning properly by his measurements, you might consider using plastic
tubing instead of copper.   You might even want to try that on your own
cell now.  The copper coil may interfere with some kind of cell resonance.
The recovery won't be as good, but neither is Ohmouri's.

A simple antenna might be made by using a piece of wire wrapped three times
around the cell in three normal planes.  Another means might be to use some
very short MOSFET amplified antennae, with the MOSFET right on the end of
the antennae, but that would probably be overkill.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 00:08:25 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 03:12:31 -0400
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Ed wrote:
>> Scott,
>>
>> Not hot water, just a pretty thorough rinsing (a full minute) in a flowing
>> stream of room temp distilled water.  Is that likely to be insufficient?
>
>I suggest you wipe the sample with acetone after rinsing with water.  This
>should remove any residual chlorides which might be retained by the surface.
>
>Ed

Or just switch the polarity for a few seconds before the actual run like you
did earlier.  That looked like it worked pretty well!

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 00:39:48 1999
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Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 23:38:46 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
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At 4:55 PM 6/10/99, Norman Horwood wrote:
>Horace,
>
>>> Did you ever try reconstructing and running at that resonant frequency?
><<
>
>Yes, but since the rebuild could not be identical I never struck the same
>overall conditions so couldn't replicate (how unusual, where have I heard
>that before? ;^)


Interesting.  The condition might have been one of amplitude modulation of
a carrier, via acoustic feed back from your system.  I earlier (wrongly)
suggested that it is unlikely to find a resonance under 40 kHz, but
Puharich had other thigs to say about that in US Patent 4,394,230 (1983).
True this patent has been around for a while, so if there were any truth or
significane to it you would have heard of profitable implimentation by now.
This is now or is soon to be public domain.

Puharich's method was to use an AM signal applied to an annular
configuration looking much like a spark plug, at modest voltages, e.g. 22
V.   His claims specify audio frequencies in the range of 20 to 200 Hz, and
the carrier, which is AM modulated by the AF, in a range of 200 - 100,000
Hz.  However, the body of the patent has more interesting specifications.
One of the more interesting is his specification that the electrode gap
width be the quenching distance for hydrogen (has some bearing on PLEC
design?)

Regarding frequencies, Puharich notes changing waveforms in different
stages of operation.  However, in the third stage, he notes the ideal
parameters including harmonic modulations. He states: " The wave form now
shifts to a form found to be the prime characteristic necessary for optimum
efficiency in the electrolysis of water and illustrated in FIg. 11." [Note
- FIG. 11 shows an AC sawtooth waveform, with very straight ramps to the
peaks, an squiqqly ramps back to the x axis.  The peaks are equidistant
from the x axis.]  "In the waveform of FIG. 11 the fundamental carrier
frequency Fc = 3980 Hz. and a harmonic modulation of the carrier as
follows:

1st Order Harmonic Modulation (OHM) = 7960 Hz
2nd Order Harmonic Modulation (II OHM) = 15,920 Hz
3rd Order Harmonic Modulation (III OHM) = 31,840 Hz
4th Order Harmonic Modulation (IV OHM) = 63,690 Hz

What is believed to be happening in this IV OHM effect is that each of the
four apecies of the tetrahedron water molecule is resonant to one of the
four harmonics observed. It is believed that the combination of negative
repulsive forces at the outer electrode with resonant frequencies just
described work together to shatter the water molecules into its component
hydrogen and oxygen atoms (as gases.)  The deductions are based on the
following observation of the process through a low power microscope.  The
hydrogen bubbles were seen to originate at the electrode rim, 4' of FIG. 3.
FIG. 12 shows a top view of this effect."  [Note FIG 12 shows six
equispaced radial bead chains going from the outer anode to the inner
cathode.]

Note that puharich used very low wattages and currents for these
experiments. Uniformly about 1 ma, starting at 22 V, but dropping to 10 V
and sometimes to 2.6 V.

Puharich notes a barrier effect, due to a very thin film bubble formation
on the electrode, which he alleviated by tapping.  He recommends 0.9
percent or less KOH or NaCl to reduce the barrier effect.

Puharich also says: "The pulsing amplitude modulation of the voltage is
determined by the Hydrogen Nuclear Spin relaxation constant, where Tau ~=
3.0 seconds. It is to be noted that the positive pulse spikes are followed
by a negative after-potential.  These pulse wave forms are identical to the
classic nerve action potential spikes found in the nervous system of all
living spcies that have a nervous system.  The fact that these unipolar
pulses were observed arising in water under the conditions of reversible
threshold hydrolysis has a profound significance."  [The PLEC magnetic
stirrer has some significance, by changing the NMR frequency?]

One of the more interesting things in the patent is a quote by Puharich of
Penner, S. S., and L. Icerman, ENERGY, VOl II, Non-Nuclear Energy
Technologies, Addison-Wesley Publishing Company, Inc. Revised Edition,
1977, Reading Mass, Page 140 ff., which follows:

"(When) H2 (gas) and O2 (gas) are generated by electrolysis, the
electrolytic cell must absorb heat from the surroundings in order to remain
at constant temperature. It is this ability to produce gaseous electrolysis
products with heat absorbtion from the surroundings that ultimately
responsible for energy-conversion efficiencies during electrolysis greater
than unity."

This statement is also fully in agreement with Peavey, provided the
electrolysis occurs below the thermoneutral voltage for the cell operating
pressure and temperature.  The thermoneutral temperature rises with water
temperature, so 2nd Law violating opportunities, if they exist, occur at
higher temperatures and pressures.


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 01:06:32 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
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If you liked the wiper blade idea, you'll love this!  The wiper blade
technique is undoubtedly superior to thumping for eliminating the barrier
effect for Browns Gas generators and other AC electrolysis devices.
However, it has occurred to me that a vastly superior method is to use a
high concentration of very small and preferably neutrally boyant dielectric
beads in the electrolyte, and then either pump the electrolyte or move the
plates, so as to cause the beads to scrub the plate surface of bubbles.
This would allow very small interpate distances, thus greatly reducing
electrolyte resistance, and thus greatly improving electrolsis efficiency.
By using spherical beads, the plate surface remains almost entirely exposed
to the electrolyte.  The beads also act as spacers, bearings, and
inter-plate insulators, or at least short avoiders.

This method should work for rotating plates, as well as concentric tubes,
or even for electrolyte pumped between fixed rectangular plates.  The best
configuration I think is a set of stationary plates interleaved with
rotating plates, so as to maintain relative plate motion. It should be
possible to maintain a much faster plate speed using small insulating
spheres than using wiper blades.

One problem with rotating plates, however, is that bouyancy of the bubbles
fights movement with the spheres, due to pressure build up on the outside
of the plates due to the centrifugal force.  A low pressure fluid return
path must be provided to prevent pressure build up on the plate periphery.
One possible solution to this problem is to use only partially (less than
half) submerged vertical rotating plates, with the shaft located above the
electrolyte.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 06:26:56 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: PLEC: Cell Reactance
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At 21:45 6/10/99 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:

>capacitance of the plates.  Another way migth be to track RMS voltage and
>RMS current vs the true integrated power, thus permitting you to calculate
>the power factor directly, and thus the capacitance.

....er....this is a DC experiment!  Except for minor failings in the power
supply's regulation, the voltage across the cell is constant.  Because of
the spikey nature of the current the RMS current is always higher than the
average current.  The latter, when multiplied by the voltage, yields the
average true power.  Yes, you could divide true power by the V*Irms product
and obtain something like a power factor but taking the arccos of it would
yield a meaningless angle, I think.  I don't see how to extract a
capacitance from these data.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 07:51:30 1999
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Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:31:22 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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Horace Heffner writes:

	In the event you don't get your cell to replicate [Ohmori's],
	and you go Japan, one thing you might want to monitor is cell RF
	radiation. The critical factor could be a something small, like
	the capacitance of the insulation on the cathode lead.

Mizuno reports that the cell produces copious RF radiation. I do not know
how it correlates with excess heat.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 09:10:27 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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At 10:31 6/11/99 -0400, Jed wrote:

>Mizuno reports that the cell produces copious RF radiation. I do not know
>how it correlates with excess heat.

My cell is also producing significant RF radiation.  An off-station AM
radio produces a distinct hash noise anywhere within ~2 meters of the
discharging cell.  The noise increases in loudness as you approach the cell
with the radio.

Judging by the relative signal strength (the hash is similar in strength to
a strong radio station), the actual radiated RF power is probably only a
few milliwatts...or maybe even microwatts.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 09:39:14 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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At 11:06 AM 6/11/99, Scott Little wrote:
>At 10:31 6/11/99 -0400, Jed wrote:
>
>>Mizuno reports that the cell produces copious RF radiation. I do not know
>>how it correlates with excess heat.
>
>My cell is also producing significant RF radiation.

Through the copper calorimetry coil?

>An off-station AM
>radio produces a distinct hash noise anywhere within ~2 meters of the
>discharging cell.  The noise increases in loudness as you approach the cell
>with the radio.
>
>Judging by the relative signal strength (the hash is similar in strength to
>a strong radio station), the actual radiated RF power is probably only a
>few milliwatts...or maybe even microwatts.


Did you look for peak frequencies?  How about other bands?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 09:45:06 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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At 10:31 AM 6/11/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Horace Heffner writes:
>
>        In the event you don't get your cell to replicate [Ohmori's],
>        and you go Japan, one thing you might want to monitor is cell RF
>        radiation. The critical factor could be a something small, like
>        the capacitance of the insulation on the cathode lead.
>
>Mizuno reports that the cell produces copious RF radiation. I do not know
>how it correlates with excess heat.

In that case an RF spectrum analyser could be Ohmori's best friend.  The RF
spectrum can be useful to distinguish the ou phase from non-ou phases of
operation, or to characterize it.  The filtering effect of the power lead
inductance and the bypass capacitance in the cell itself may mask what is
happening inside the cell at high frequencies from the perspective of
oscilloscope test leads.  However, at least some of the RF radiation will
be detected through the  electrolyte.  Some radiation is probably due to
nuclear relaxation, and should make for moving RF peaks, that can be moved
by changing the ambient magnetic field using Helmholtz coils.  These peaks
might already be moving around, and also made fuzzy, in synchronization
with the magnetic stirrer.

If any of this is successful, it might be of use to insert an RF sensing
probe, insulated in glass or quartz, into the electrolyte near the cathode.

Thanks for the corrected spelling of Ohmori.  I see I managed to misspell
it two different ways in the same post.  My apologies!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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>One problem with rotating plates, however, is that bouyancy of the bubbles
>fights movement with the spheres, due to pressure build up on the outside
>of the plates due to the centrifugal force.  A low pressure fluid return
>path must be provided to prevent pressure build up on the plate periphery.
>One possible solution to this problem is to use only partially (less than
>half) submerged vertical rotating plates, with the shaft located above the
>electrolyte.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          

This sounds interesting Horace, and maybe if we keep thinking about it, we
can get the rotating plates to turn on their own!  How about some grooves or
vanes on the plates, maybe?  Look Out!

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 12:52:08 -0400
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>A simple antenna might be made by using a piece of wire wrapped three times
>around the cell in three normal planes.  Another means might be to use some
>very short MOSFET amplified antennae, with the MOSFET right on the end of
>the antennae, but that would probably be overkill.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          

Hi Horace,

        How would one go about checking for heterodyning?

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 12:19:35 1999
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X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 20:17:51 +0100 (BST)
From: Cornwall RO <R.O.Cornwall city.ac.uk>
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Hello all,
I have a new paper that I'd like to distribute. I'm having trouble getting
a word to html converter that does excatly what I want and so for now I
shall try to get a ftp site or send it to enquirers direct, pkzipped.

I now have an academic base at a v.good university and experiments are
just around the corner. This one will be a joy to engineer because there
are so many easy parameters, take a look at the paper.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 12:45:23 1999
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	Dear Remi,

	Please send as plain ASCII .. and NOT as ftp.



On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, Cornwall RO wrote:

> Hello all,
> I have a new paper that I'd like to distribute. I'm having trouble getting
> a word to html converter that does excatly what I want and so for now I
> shall try to get a ftp site or send it to enquirers direct, pkzipped.
> 
ii> I now have an academic base at a v.good university and experiments are
> just around the corner. This one will be a joy to engineer because there
> are so many easy parameters, take a look at the paper.
> Remi.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 13:45:50 1999
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: ESP
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At 03:38 PM 6/10/1999 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>That's a great story! You did this in high school? I hope you got an A++.
>
>This may be the only solid, documented, real case of Extra Sensory
>Perception on record.

    Nope, there has been a lot of work done on how birds navigate--they
apparently have an internal "compass" that detects magnetic fields.  There
have been many cases of people who hear radio stations in their head,
usually due to dental bridgework and old fillings.  The (silver amalgam)
fillings can create a semiconducting oxide layer, and the bridgework acts
as an antenna.  Just about anyone can detect a bright enough infrared
source with their skin.  (Not to mention the way many sunbathers painfully
detect ultraviolet.)  If you stand near a Van de Graff generator you will
discover that you are sensitive to strong electrical fields--probably
genetically selected for by lightning. The sensitivity is at about the
level where you are about to become a lightning rod.  So, there are many
senses other than the "standard" five.  In fact, the kinesthetic sense is
beginning to be accepted as a sixth.

>                   It isn't quite what the enthusiasts have in mind, but
>it is extra, and sensory, so it passes the test. I had no idea the human
>eye can work at near ultraviolet wavelengths. I wonder what the textbooks
>say about that.

    Good question.  As I said, in case where people have their corneas
removed and replaced, the wavelengths they can see increase.  There is a
lower limit on frequency due to the photoelectric effect.  The only upper
limit seems to be due to the cornea.  The interesting thing is that it has
little or nothing to do with eye color.  My father's eyes are blue, mine
are hazel, and my sister's are brown.  Besides, it seems to be dominant.
Two of five children in my generation have it, my kids both seems to, my
father was one of two children, etc.  Now that you have reminded me, I'll
have to test out my sister's three children.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 13:58:39 1999
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Abolafia's Invention
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:59:09 -0400
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Scott wrote:

>I thought we'd already discarded Abolafia....right, George?
-
Right, as we agreed in earlier vortex messages, this proposal 
completely neglects the EM interactions creating drag forces on 
the superconductor. 
Abolafia treats the the superconductor as if it creates an EM
shadow, but this is not radiated energy, it is a magnetic field
interaction.
-
>At 07:25 PM 6/10/99 -0000, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
>
>>Unfortunately, he has made no prototype of his device, but he HAS 
>>interested top people at the IEEE....
>
>He must have found some folks at IEEE who don't know anything about
>electromagnetics.
-
It is hard to believe that anyone at the IEEE expressed serious
interest in this concept.
-  
>Abolafia's concept is flawed and his calculations are wrong.  The concept
>involves using a rotating superconductor to alternately shield and unshield
>a permanent magnet so that its flux can alternately penetrate and not
>penetrate a coil, thus inducing an alternating  current in the coil.  He
>ignores the totally conservative forces that will be exerted on the moving
>SC as it rotates, and that is the fundamental problem with his concept.  If
>actually constructed he would find that it takes just a little more power
>to rotate the SC than the device produces.
-
This concept does not actually require the vacuum enclosure to test the
principle, as if such a test were actually necessary. 
If a new principle of physics were involved, testing would be in order,
but the flaw here is fundamental and obvious.
-
Regards,
George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
1924 US Hwy 22 East            Bound Brook NJ 08805

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 14:08:43 1999
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: ESP
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At 10:16 PM 6/10/1999 -0400, Michael T Huffman wrote:

>It's called night vision.  If you spend 8 hours a day working in a photolab
>darkroom, developing film or paper, you can actually develop the talent.  If
>you are running in and out of darkrooms, you can learn to adjust your eyes
>pretty quickly to widen and narrow the visible light spectrum.  There are
>some touch capabilities that can be overdeveloped as well.  It's not
>uncommon in that industry.  I've met some people with such extraordinary
>capabilities that if I didn't see them do it myself, I wouldn't believe it.

   I agree with most of what you are saying except that it is not called
night vision.  That refers to the increase in sensitivity as the visual
purple builds up in the retina.

   Having said that, I guess I agree with the "not uncommon in that
industry."  It isn't common, but not uncommon about describes it.  I've
found it much more often in people working in the graphic arts (printing)
industry than in the photographic industry, but there is a significant
overlap between the two.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 14:18:09 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Cathode destroyed mechanically
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In the glow discharge experiments, the cathode is destroyed within minutes
or hours. Even if the heat is real, it would difficult to make this into a
practical form of energy. You would have to extend the life of the cathode
to months or years. The upcoming Mizuno paper says that the destruction is
not chemical.

". . . the tungsten found at the bottom of the cell was recovered as pure
metallic fine powder, so no chemical reaction occurred."

Apparently it is caused by mechanical forces, heat, or perhaps ultrasound:


I mentioned the pioneering work in glow discharges 45 years ago. Mizuno
summarizes the findings briefly:

Hickling et al. [9, 10] applied high voltage to a liquid electrolyte and
created a layer of gas and vapor surrounding the cathode surface, and
determined that a glow discharge occurs along with incandescent light
emission. When that occurs, they measured a number of reaction products of
various types, and determined that the reaction mechanism is different from
that of normal electrochemical reactions. Sengupta et al. [11, 12]
clarified experimentally that H2O2 is formed a higher rate than
conventional theory predicts for a given level of current flow during the
glow discharge electrolysis reaction, demonstrating that the phenomenon
does not follow Faraday's laws.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 15:59:46 1999
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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: "Robert I. Eachus" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 15:54:33 -0700
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On 11-Jun-99, Robert I. Eachus, wrote:
>At 10:16 PM 6/10/1999 -0400, Michael T Huffman wrote:

>>It's called night vision.  If you spend 8 hours a day working in a photolab
>>darkroom, developing film or paper, you can actually develop the talent.  If
>>you are running in and out of darkrooms, you can learn to adjust your eyes
>>pretty quickly to widen and narrow the visible light spectrum.  There are
>>some touch capabilities that can be overdeveloped as well.  It's not
>>uncommon in that industry.  I've met some people with such extraordinary
>>capabilities that if I didn't see them do it myself, I wouldn't believe it.

>   I agree with most of what you are saying except that it is not called
>night vision.  That refers to the increase in sensitivity as the visual
>purple builds up in the retina.

>   Having said that, I guess I agree with the "not uncommon in that
>industry."  It isn't common, but not uncommon about describes it.  I've
>found it much more often in people working in the graphic arts (printing)
>industry than in the photographic industry, but there is a significant
>overlap between the two.

>                                        Robert I. Eachus

>with Standard_Disclaimer;
>use  Standard_Disclaimer;
>function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...

Hmmm, perhaps I can come out of lurkerhood contribute a little something,
here ;)

Normally, when the eyes are closed, alpha frequencies appear or increase
at back of the brain, at O1-O2. But, when you can get a trainee to focus
their attention enough, to act as if they were /trying/ to `see' in the dark,
these alpha frequencies are reduced. I saying /trying/, because part of
the goal to learn to do it, effortlessly, without having to work 8 hrs.,
in a darkroom ;)

It is the task of the trainer to keep the trainee's attention focused
on the residual light on the closed eyelids, keep alpha reduced to eyes 
open equivalence and not fall asleep. Alpha can be looked at as a
"brain at idle" indicator. 

On the /negative/ side of this, is that a person can be diagnosed as
"hyper-vigilant", among other things, if they can't or don't produce 
any alpha. 

With reference to Eachus' "visual purple", Edgar Cayce, described this
as the `space' he's in, when he does/did his work. The Tibetans call
it the "blue bindu". So, there is a reported basis. 

With this technique, I've received a couple of "far out" reports,
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\--
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'
http://www.post-trauma.com/roshi.html
http://www.Starsaga.com/biofeedback.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 16:52:08 1999
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Solar Physics (was Re: Mention of Ionisation ,,,Re: Hydrino
  Theory ?)
Cc: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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At 11:25 PM 6/10/1999 -0000, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>Could you kindly provide me with some of your best technical references 
>to some of the "alternative" models for solar core nuclear reactions?  I 
>have been puzzled by the bandwagon for finding unconventional 
>explanations for the dearth of solar neutrino flux -- the neutrino 
>oscillation models -- while seeming to discount possible radical 
>reformulation of solar core physics.
 
    The best defender of the SSM (Standard Solar Model) is J. N. Bahcall.
As far as I am concerned the best alternative is due to Wick Haxton.  I'll
give you two references to start http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/nucl-th/9712049
and http://www.itp.ucsb.edu/online/snu/ but the paper is somewhat dense,
and the conference stuff on line is slides which are hard to follow
sometimes.  (Note that Wick Haxton actually favors neutrino oscillations
over the model he describes here, but I think that the arguments for his
model are fairly compelling.  The real answer will probably be some
combination of neutrino oscillations and core mixing.

    The point I was making that led to this is that if there is significant
mixing going on in the solar core, there are probably significant pressure
fluctuations, probably around the He3 + He3 burning layer.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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From: Mark Goldes <mg3545 mail.com>
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Subject: An apt quotation
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"All truth passes through three stages.  First, it is ridiculed.  Second, it
is violently opposed.  Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."        
Schopenhauer

Mark Goldes, CEO, MPI/ROOTS

__________________________________________________
FREE Email for ALL! Sign up at http://www.mail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 17:25:02 1999
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Hi John,
Sorry but it contains diagrams and type set equations. I'll try pdf
format. I'll keep try to get a converter that does what I want, the last
resort will be to handcode the html stuff.
Remi.

On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, John Schnurer wrote:

> 
> 
> 	Dear Remi,
> 
> 	Please send as plain ASCII .. and NOT as ftp.
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, Cornwall RO wrote:
> 
> > Hello all,
> > I have a new paper that I'd like to distribute. I'm having trouble getting
> > a word to html converter that does excatly what I want and so for now I
> > shall try to get a ftp site or send it to enquirers direct, pkzipped.
> > 
> ii> I now have an academic base at a v.good university and experiments are
> > just around the corner. This one will be a joy to engineer because there
> > are so many easy parameters, take a look at the paper.
> > Remi.
> > 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 18:15:23 1999
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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC Field Emission Mechanism
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To:  Vortex

Going by Ed Storms' criteria that a "spark" or electron avalanche through a
dielectric film is required for OU effects in the Electrolysis Cells, and
Langmuir's explanation of  High Field Electron Emission (100
Amperes/Millimeter^2) of the Cathode Spot in molten cathodes due to the
"Positive Ion Sheath", perhaps a momentary "Pulse" of positive polarity on
the Tungsten Cathode in order to make it "Anodic" so that a thin oxide film
can develop would be in order.

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 19:26:34 1999
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cc: John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: SO ? :  How are Bitter Solenoids made ??  : Bitter Solenoid
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	Dear Mike,

	See notes:

On Tue, 8 Jun 1999, Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Gnorts,
> 
> The other day I mentioned the possibility of using "Tesla'a Bitter
> Solenoids" as an inductor.  The above should have read "Bitter Solenoids",
> invented by Francis Bitter.  I apologise to Mr. Bitter and Mr. Tesla, and
> did not mean to imply that Telsa's solenoids were bitter, nor did I mean
> that Bitter's solenoids were Telsa's.  I still would like to find out which
> one is better, though.
> 

	How, specifically, are the bitter solenoids made and can't we just
add a little milk and sugar ... and maybe some comfrey and vanilla bean
extract?  The we can freeze it REAL good, while stirring..

				MMMMM

	Decadent Ice Cream!

					JHS



> Knuke
> 
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 19:36:11 1999
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Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 20:33:47 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: Re: PLEC Field Emission Mechanism
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

> To:  Vortex
>
> Going by Ed Storms' criteria that a "spark" or electron avalanche through a
> dielectric film is required for OU effects in the Electrolysis Cells, and
> Langmuir's explanation of  High Field Electron Emission (100
> Amperes/Millimeter^2) of the Cathode Spot in molten cathodes due to the
> "Positive Ion Sheath", perhaps a momentary "Pulse" of positive polarity on
> the Tungsten Cathode in order to make it "Anodic" so that a thin oxide film
> can develop would be in order.
>
> Regards,    Frederick

Good idea.  Maybe the normal ringing of the electronic circuit (caused by
sudden current surge during sparking) does this automatically, hence the need
to have a special power supply and wire arrangement for the system to work.

Ed Storms




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 19:56:39 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Cathode destroyed mechanically
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At 05:06 PM 6/11/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>". . . the tungsten found at the bottom of the cell was recovered as pure
>metallic fine powder, so no chemical reaction occurred."

I am also recovering such a powder in my cells....and I have confirmed that
it is essentially pure W using our XRF system.  This metallic powder is
really no surprise to me (except that I didn't see it in our first series
of cells which used smaller-area W rods for cathodes).  The process going
on inside the cell is similar to Electrical Discharge Machining (EDM) which
reduces the workpiece metal to a super-fine powder except that the sparks
are formed between a liquid electrode and the work (the W cathode).
However, because of the "excess gas" flow I've measured, I believe that
some of the W is also being oxidized in the cell.  On the next run (using
one of Mizuno's cathodes), I will attempt to account for the whereabouts of
all of the W after the run....and to perform a rudimentary analysis on the
excess gas.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 19:59:45 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC Field Emission Mechanism
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At 08:33 PM 6/11/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:

>>perhaps a momentary "Pulse" of positive polarity on
>> the Tungsten Cathode in order to make it "Anodic" so that a thin oxide film
>> can develop would be in order.
>>
>> Regards,    Frederick
>
>Good idea.  Maybe the normal ringing of the electronic circuit (caused by
>sudden current surge during sparking) does this automatically, hence the need
>to have a special power supply and wire arrangement for the system to work.

Looks like I'll have to eventually try at least one run where I add some
small C and L to deliberately create a tank circuit that includes the cell....


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 20:11:06 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Cathode destroyed mechanically
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 23:10:34 -0400
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Jed wrote:
>In the glow discharge experiments, the cathode is destroyed within minutes
>or hours. Even if the heat is real, it would difficult to make this into a
>practical form of energy. You would have to extend the life of the cathode
>to months or years. The upcoming Mizuno paper says that the destruction is
>not chemical.
>
>". . . the tungsten found at the bottom of the cell was recovered as pure
>metallic fine powder, so no chemical reaction occurred."
>
>Apparently it is caused by mechanical forces, heat, or perhaps ultrasound:
>
>
>I mentioned the pioneering work in glow discharges 45 years ago. Mizuno
>summarizes the findings briefly:
>
>Hickling et al. [9, 10] applied high voltage to a liquid electrolyte and
>created a layer of gas and vapor surrounding the cathode surface, and
>determined that a glow discharge occurs along with incandescent light
>emission. When that occurs, they measured a number of reaction products of
>various types, and determined that the reaction mechanism is different from
>that of normal electrochemical reactions. Sengupta et al. [11, 12]
>clarified experimentally that H2O2 is formed a higher rate than
>conventional theory predicts for a given level of current flow during the
>glow discharge electrolysis reaction, demonstrating that the phenomenon
>does not follow Faraday's laws.
>
>- Jed

Hi Jed,

The sublimation of tungsten occurs with Brown's Gas as well, and was
something that I mentioned earlier.  Todd Knudson ran a tungsten wirefeed
into a BG flame, and ran water into it creating one heck of a lot of steam,
as he put it.  He didn't do any formal calorimetry, but someone should.
It's an obvious way to generate more steam than normal, and the W is
recoverable.  I'm not clear as to how Mizuno is doing his recombination.  Is
he runnning the gas outside of the cell like Scott or does he have a
recombiner as part of his cell?

As for the H2O2, that is probably caused by the UV light.  The same occurs
with cavitation, and was personally verified by yours truly:-)  I was only
creating around 2ppm, but H2O2 is pretty unstable over 90F.

And you are right about this being unpractical for any use other than for
hard science purposes.  A tungsten wire feed arrangement could be
engineered, but the whole anode to cathode ratio and geometry business would
be thrown out the window.

Also, do you have any specific info on the type of magnetic stirrer he is
using, and how much stirring it does?

Thanks,

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 20:23:05 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: SO ? :  How are Bitter Solenoids made ??  : Bitter Solenoid
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 23:24:29 -0400
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John wrote:
>	How, specifically, are the bitter solenoids made and can't we just
>add a little milk and sugar ... and maybe some comfrey and vanilla bean
>extract?  The we can freeze it REAL good, while stirring..
>
>				MMMMM
>
>	Decadent Ice Cream!
>
>					JHS
>

Hi John,

I sent you that URL the other day, did you not get it?  It has some pretty
clear diagrams of how they are constructed.  The main advantages that I can
see over the normal type of solenoid are:

        A)They lend themselves well to high voltages.  The insulation
between the layers of copper can be as thick as necessary to prevent breakdown.

        2)They are more easily and thoroughly cooled by dielectric liquids
than coils.

        c4)They may be more easily assembled or lend themselves to
adjustment in the assembly vs one long copper wire of a fixed length.

I actually spent some time looking around for information on these puppies,
and there just isn't much general stuff available other than that one URL.
Either they don't perform well, or industry considers them a curiosity, or
they were not well promoted.  I didn't do a patent search, but will.  If you
see anything else, let me know.

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 20:43:15 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: ESP
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 23:44:27 -0400
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Chuck wrote:
>It is the task of the trainer to keep the trainee's attention focused
>on the residual light on the closed eyelids, keep alpha reduced to eyes 
>open equivalence and not fall asleep. Alpha can be looked at as a
>"brain at idle" indicator. 
>
>On the /negative/ side of this, is that a person can be diagnosed as
>"hyper-vigilant", among other things, if they can't or don't produce 
>any alpha. 
>
>With reference to Eachus' "visual purple", Edgar Cayce, described this
>as the `space' he's in, when he does/did his work. The Tibetans call
>it the "blue bindu". So, there is a reported basis. 
>
>With this technique, I've received a couple of "far out" reports,


I have no idea what you guys are talking about...8^)  I read a book about
Cayce about twenty years ago, and decided that he was a goofball Wall Street
speculator that lost all his money like everybody else.  I have heard of the
Alpha and Theta training, but have never tried it.  I usually don't go in
for training progams.  I went to a Gyoto Monks concert in Seattle once that
Mickey Hart from the Dead put on.  It was interesting.  Kind of like being
in a room full of frogs for a couple of hours.  Anyway, this is pretty off
topic, and I don't want to be too annoying.

Don't space out, and leave your third eye on any portapottie seats!  It's
not pretty, I'll tellya 8^)

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 20:53:07 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: PLEC Field Emission Mechanism
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 23:56:59 -0400
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Fred wrote:
>Going by Ed Storms' criteria that a "spark" or electron avalanche through a
>dielectric film is required for OU effects in the Electrolysis Cells, and
>Langmuir's explanation of  High Field Electron Emission (100
>Amperes/Millimeter^2) of the Cathode Spot in molten cathodes due to the
>"Positive Ion Sheath", perhaps a momentary "Pulse" of positive polarity on
>the Tungsten Cathode in order to make it "Anodic" so that a thin oxide film
>can develop would be in order.
>
>Regards,    Frederick

He did this by accident on one of the earlier runs, I think run 3?  By the
photos, it looked like it cleaned the cathode off.  Would the W oxide layer
necessarily be dark?

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 20:59:20 1999
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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Field Emission Effect & OU Thermionic Power Generation
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 21:51:34 -0600
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To: Vortex

If I read Ed Storms' High Field Emission Effect correctly the electrons
tunneling the dielectric barrier and producing OU Heat, need only have an
energy of a few ev or less, and do whatever they do to  Hydrogen or
Deuterium molecules, atoms, or ions.

The "inelastic" scattering cross-section is about 7 orders of magnitude
greater at these low energies than at energies of 100 ev or more.

This being the case, a fossil fuel-heated (or solar, or radioisotope heated)
cathode of a  Thermionic Generator using Potassium or Cesium for space
charge neutralization and "catalysis", along with H2 or D2, and with a grid
or anode with a few volts (or less) applied, might make a self-sustaining
and energy multiplying Power Generator.

An "Oreo Cookie" design would probably be the easiest to work with.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick



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Subject: Re: PLEC Field Emission Mechanism
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----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: PLEC Field Emission Mechanism

Scott wrote:


> At 08:33 PM 6/11/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >>perhaps a momentary "Pulse" of positive polarity on
> >> the Tungsten Cathode in order to make it "Anodic" so that a thin oxide
film
> >> can develop would be in order.
> >>
> >> Regards,    Frederick
> >
> >Good idea.  Maybe the normal ringing of the electronic circuit (caused by
> >sudden current surge during sparking) does this automatically, hence the
need
> >to have a special power supply and wire arrangement for the system to
work.
>
> Looks like I'll have to eventually try at least one run where I add some
> small C and L to deliberately create a tank circuit that includes the
cell....

A timed (or manual :-) electromechanical  or electronic polarity reversing
switch on your power supply would probably be simpler. You might have to
drop the voltage substantially to get the WOx layer that you need.

Regards,   Frederick
>
>
> Scott Little
> EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX
78759
> 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX)
> little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 21:18:12 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC Field Emission Mechanism
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----- Original Message -----
From: Michael T Huffman <knuke LCIA.COM>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: PLEC Field Emission Mechanism

Knuke wrote:


> Fred wrote:
> >Going by Ed Storms' criteria that a "spark" or electron avalanche through
a
> >dielectric film is required for OU effects in the Electrolysis Cells, and
> >Langmuir's explanation of  High Field Electron Emission (100
> >Amperes/Millimeter^2) of the Cathode Spot in molten cathodes due to the
> >"Positive Ion Sheath", perhaps a momentary "Pulse" of positive polarity
on
> >the Tungsten Cathode in order to make it "Anodic" so that a thin oxide
film
> >can develop would be in order.
> >
> >Regards,    Frederick
>
> He did this by accident on one of the earlier runs, I think run 3?  By the
> photos, it looked like it cleaned the cathode off.  Would the W oxide
layer
> necessarily be dark?

I think it was on the first run, but at too high a voltage and too long a
time for the right WOx oxide.

Ed  Storms can answer your question on what a few nanometers thick WOx layer
on W, would look like.

Regards,    Frederick
>
> Knuke
>
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 21:33:37 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: LOST URL    Re: SO ? :  How are Bitter Solenoids made ??  : Bitter Solenoid
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	Which URL?

	and any others....

On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, Michael T Huffman wrote:

> John wrote:
> >	How, specifically, are the bitter solenoids made and can't we just
> >add a little milk and sugar ... and maybe some comfrey and vanilla bean
> >extract?  The we can freeze it REAL good, while stirring..
> >
> >				MMMMM
> >
> >	Decadent Ice Cream!
> >
> >					JHS
> >
> 
> Hi John,
> 
> I sent you that URL the other day, did you not get it?  It has some pretty
> clear diagrams of how they are constructed.  The main advantages that I can
> see over the normal type of solenoid are:
> 
>         A)They lend themselves well to high voltages.  The insulation
> between the layers of copper can be as thick as necessary to prevent breakdown.
> 
>         2)They are more easily and thoroughly cooled by dielectric liquids
> than coils.
> 
>         c4)They may be more easily assembled or lend themselves to
> adjustment in the assembly vs one long copper wire of a fixed length.
> 
> I actually spent some time looking around for information on these puppies,
> and there just isn't much general stuff available other than that one URL.
> Either they don't perform well, or industry considers them a curiosity, or
> they were not well promoted.  I didn't do a patent search, but will.  If you
> see anything else, let me know.
> 
> Knuke
> 
> 
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 11 22:55:01 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Missing URL
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 01:58:50 -0400
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>To: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
>From: knuke lcia.com (Michael T Huffman)
>Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
>
>>
>>	Dear Mike,
>>
>>	What do you mean by 'bitter solenoids'?  Why do you want or need
>>them?
>>
>>				John
>
>Hi John,
>
>I don't know what they are really, that is why I want to make them.  I do
want to make an alternater for my BG device so that I can alter the
frequency.  I want to use an inductor, and this looked like a good thing to
play with.  I can learn about them and see if they have any real advantage
over a normal inductor.  You can see them at:
>
>http://www-hfml.sci.kun.nl/hfml/levitate.html
>
>Knuke
>
>
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 12 00:43:30 1999
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Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 03:38:10 -0400
From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: More on a Brown's gas generator
Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
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Horace,

>> 1st Order Harmonic Modulation (OHM) = 7960 Hz
2nd Order Harmonic Modulation (II OHM) = 15,920 Hz
3rd Order Harmonic Modulation (III OHM) = 31,840 Hz
4th Order Harmonic Modulation (IV OHM) = 63,690 Hz

What is believed to be happening in this IV OHM effect is that each of the
four apecies of the tetrahedron water molecule is resonant to one of the
four harmonics observed. It is believed that the combination of negative
repulsive forces at the outer electrode with resonant frequencies just
described work together to shatter the water molecules into its component
hydrogen and oxygen atoms (as gases.) <<

This must be where Meyer got his ideas.  He indicated that 16kHz was
optimal in the "fracturing" of the water molecule.

BTW, he stipulated square wave DC pulses, which is what I was using, but
failed to replicate his results.  

>> One of the more interesting things in the patent is a quote by Puharich
of
Penner, S. S., and L. Icerman, ENERGY, VOl II, Non-Nuclear Energy
Technologies, Addison-Wesley Publishing Company, Inc. Revised Edition,
1977, Reading Mass, Page 140 ff., which follows:

"(When) H2 (gas) and O2 (gas) are generated by electrolysis, the
electrolytic cell must absorb heat from the surroundings in order to remain
at constant temperature. It is this ability to produce gaseous electrolysis
products with heat absorbtion from the surroundings that ultimately
responsible for energy-conversion efficiencies during electrolysis greater
than unity." <<

If Meyer's setup really was OU, then this might explain why his cell
remained cool.  Are we going to have to say - come back Stan - all is
forgiven !?

Regards,  Norman Horwood

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 12 01:23:00 1999
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Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 04:26:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: Michael T Huffman <knuke LCIA.COM>,
        John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: Missing URL
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	Dear Nike and Folks,

	The URL, Below does not work.

	Are you sure it is correct?

	See FLAG, Below.....

On Sat, 12 Jun 1999, Michael T Huffman wrote:

> >To: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
> >From: knuke lcia.com (Michael T Huffman)

> >

________________________________	flag  _________-

	Are you sure the address is www-hfml ???  Should it be html ???

	Why don't you run it and copydown EXACTLY what is in the address
bar... please

				John


> >http://www-hfml.sci.kun.nl/hfml/levitate.html
> >
> >Knuke
> >
> >
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 12 03:29:48 1999
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Like it says, will resend.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 12 04:45:34 1999
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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC and Tungsten Oxides
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To: Vortex

There are a plethora of  WOx  Anions (WO4 = etc.) that can form in the
Mizuno experiment, and depending on the pH and K+ concentration form several
species of polytungstate anions that may or may not build the nanometer
thick dielectric layer on the tungsten cathode that Ed Storms discusses as
necessary for OU effects.

The Molybdates/Oxides are quite similar in their properties,. I have used
"Molybdic Acid" dissolved in water for extremely rapid "Hard Anodizing" of
Aluminum with 120+ volts.

Perhaps Scott should send a few liters of the electrolyte to Rich Murray for
Phlogistation? <g>

Regards,     Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 12 05:35:00 1999
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Message-Id: <199906121228.IAA02202 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: Solar Physics (was Re: Mention of Ionisation ,,,Re: Hydrino  Theory ?)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 08:30:12 -0000
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From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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>The best defender of the SSM (Standard Solar Model) is J. N. Bahcall.
>As far as I am concerned the best alternative is due to Wick Haxton.  I'll
>give you two references to start http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/nucl-th/9712049
>and http://www.itp.ucsb.edu/online/snu/ 

Robert, thank you for the references.

Gene Malove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 12 07:22:17 1999
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Scott Little wrote:

> Apparently doggedly adhering to some stuffy old principles of physics, the
> measured heat output power was essentially EQUAL to the measured electrical
> input power!....8(
>

So you've reached break-even? Uncle Sam's been spending billions of dollars and
only recently reached that milestone.
;)



--
Regards,
Patrick V. Reavis
http://ro.com/~preavis
http://ro.com/~preavis/Quiz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 12 07:30:40 1999
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Organization: Energy K System
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Subject: Re: PLEC Field Emission Mechanism
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> Ed  Storms can answer your question on what a few nanometers thick WOx layer
> on W, would look like.
>
> Regards,    Frederick

The normal tungsten oxide is yellow-orange, depending on oxygen stoichiometry,
but a thin layer can have any color owing to reflective interference.
Unfortunately, the oxide is easily reduced by hydrogen at modest temperatures
(energies in the case of a discharge).

Speculations as to how sparks initiate nuclear reactions must consider the fact
that the resulting nuclear reactions are anomalous in that radioactive products
are not made and neutron emission is essentially absent.  My favorite
explanation involves electron clusters as proposed by Ken Shoulders.

Ed Storms

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 12 08:20:56 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC Field Emission Mechanism
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----- Original Message -----
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 1999 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: PLEC Field Emission Mechanism

Ed Storms wrote:
>
> The normal tungsten oxide is yellow-orange, depending on oxygen
stoichiometry,
> but a thin layer can have any color owing to reflective interference.
> Unfortunately, the oxide is easily reduced by hydrogen at modest
temperatures
> (energies in the case of a discharge).

I don't know how anodizing of tungsten will work. Depending on voltage and
current density the Electropolishing mechanism could prevail over oxidation.
OTOH, tungsten reacts with steam at about 800-900 C (1450-1650 F), which
raises the possibility of  heating it with an electric current, in situ, if
that is possible.
>
> Speculations as to how sparks initiate nuclear reactions must consider the
fact
> that the resulting nuclear reactions are anomalous in that radioactive
products
> are not made and neutron emission is essentially absent.  My favorite
> explanation involves electron clusters as proposed by Ken Shoulders.

My favorite explanation (and Ron Brodzinski at PNL tends to nod  in
agreement, as long as I don't call them Neutrinos <g> ) is that a Light
Lepton pair (~ = Me/10^6) is produced in an electron-proton or electron
deuteron collision,  dE = hbar/dt, and these can form the "hydrino/deutrino"
and since they will lose energy by collisions with the electrons in micron
path lengths they can pull off Aneutronic-Gammaless heat release.

Regards,     Frederick
>
> Ed Storms
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 12 09:13:07 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Knuke,

Do you have any data on the analysis of recovered tungsten from heating in a
Brown's Gas flame?

I've seen the effect, but am not convinced that it is actually sublimating,
as it may be only oxidizing into small particles that blow away like dust.
It's an interesting effect to watch, and makes a mighty sharp needle out of
a rod of W.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975


>
> The sublimation of tungsten occurs with Brown's Gas as well, and was
> something that I mentioned earlier.  Todd Knudson ran a tungsten wirefeed
> into a BG flame, and ran water into it creating one heck of a lot
> of steam,
> as he put it.  He didn't do any formal calorimetry, but someone should.
> It's an obvious way to generate more steam than normal, and the W is
> recoverable.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 12 12:37:51 1999
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  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
  Send mail to mime docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

---559023410-758783491-929215361=:6692
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Forward of message to freenrg

Dieter Bauer,
I just sent you the file. At the moment I am setting up ftp and
considering putting the file in postscript, pdf, word97 and html format.
If you had problems with the file earlier, it was because I sent it up to
the unix host via ftp as (duh!) ascii instead of binary. I nag people at
work about ftp'ing too!
Remi.
P.S. obviously unix users can just 'cat' the postscript file. This might
help John Schnurer and others not using windows.

---559023410-758783491-929215361=:6692--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 12 12:55:15 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
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Patrick wrote:
>So you've reached break-even? Uncle Sam's been spending billions of dollars and
>only recently reached that milestone.
>;)

That's hundreds of billions Patrick.  If they wanted to rip off just ten or
or so billions, they would have started an HMO billing company or something.
Or become a superfund contractor.  If you want the big bucks, go nuclear!

Knuke



Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 12 13:14:55 1999
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Michael, Knuke,

It's not so much go nuclear as more a case of Rumplestilskin, Emperor's
New Clothes, too many cooks, bastions and more perls of wisdom.

Think about it, professional status ruins just about everything in life. 
Think of your great sporting heroes, are they really doing it just for the
money? If your main area of creative endeavour is you 9to5 you're going to
want to protect your turf... Unionise it, bastionise it, acolades, learned
societies, distinguished fellows, life-time service awards, government
grants, government minister for such and such...

Sport like Science used to be fun until it got a little too serious.
Sport's like this, too kids in a street, one says to the other, 'I betcha
I can such and such', the other 'Naaaah, you're on!'. Then came the sport
'scientists' studying:

'Flow trajectories of sputum or dilute uric acid streams from adoloscent
males under competative conditions and the wider implications to the
social fabric and government resource allocation for listless adoloscent
males from low socio-economic demographic localities' 
The proceedings of the Learned Society, vol. 666, 1896A.D.

 Remi.

 On Sat, 12 Jun 1999, Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Patrick wrote:
> >So you've reached break-even? Uncle Sam's been spending billions of dollars and
> >only recently reached that milestone.
> >;)
> 
> That's hundreds of billions Patrick.  If they wanted to rip off just ten or
> or so billions, they would have started an HMO billing company or something.
> Or become a superfund contractor.  If you want the big bucks, go nuclear!
> 
> Knuke
> 
> 
> 
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 12 13:16:14 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: RE: Cathode destroyed mechanically
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 16:18:14 -0400
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Ed wrote:
>Do you have any data on the analysis of recovered tungsten from heating in a
>Brown's Gas flame?
>
>I've seen the effect, but am not convinced that it is actually sublimating,
>as it may be only oxidizing into small particles that blow away like dust.
>It's an interesting effect to watch, and makes a mighty sharp needle out of
>a rod of W.
>
>Ed Wall

No.  This is just something that I've read a thousand times, mostly by
promoters.  It's been the story with this device.  No one has gotten any
credible data that I have seen, but everyone that has one, says it works.  I
would tend to think that it could be WO???, and it might be, but the EM
pulse that accompanies the flame, and the additional steam, suggests that it
could be actually boiling off pure W.  Don't know till you run it through a
mass spec.  You should call Wiseman and get Todd's number, too.  They are
very open, and have a bunch of machines to test.  They may have in house
data that I'm not aware of as well.

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 12 14:27:53 1999
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 17:26:08 EDT
Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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In a message dated 6/11/99 9:44:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
hheffner mtaonline.net writes:

<< Mizuno reports that the cell produces copious r.f. radiation. I do not know
 >how it correlates with excess heat.
 
 An electric arc or spark causes a nearly vertical rise in current Vs time 
that looks to a Forier analysis like white noise, with frequency components 
from d.c. through gamma ray.  Unless all else fails to explain or duplicate 
Mizuno's o.u.
 I would not spend too much time and thought on the r.f. stuff.  If r.f. is a 
necessary ingredient, perhaps the experiment should be redesigned with a 
controlled r.f.source instead of a Marconi transmitter.  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 12 14:39:30 1999
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>Michael, Knuke,
>
>It's not so much go nuclear as more a case of Rumplestilskin, Emperor's
>New Clothes, too many cooks, bastions and more perls of wisdom.
>
>Think about it, professional status ruins just about everything in life. 
>Think of your great sporting heroes, are they really doing it just for the
>money? If your main area of creative endeavour is you 9to5 you're going to
>want to protect your turf... Unionise it, bastionise it, acolades, learned
>societies, distinguished fellows, life-time service awards, government
>grants, government minister for such and such...

OFF WITH THEIR HEADS, REMI!!!  8^)

Knuke

PS Got any peanuts?

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 12 14:43:41 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Cathode destroyed mechanically
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At 5:06 PM 6/11/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>In the glow discharge experiments, the cathode is destroyed within minutes
>or hours. Even if the heat is real, it would difficult to make this into a
>practical form of energy. You would have to extend the life of the cathode
>to months or years. The upcoming Mizuno paper says that the destruction is
>not chemical.

I have not read all the posts yet, and may not be able to for a bit (I just
got out of an less than comfortable 24 hr. surprise stay at the hospital
for angina.  The good news is that I now have a legitimate though limited
source of nitroglycerin!  8^)  I don't know if anyone has suggested the
following remedy, but I'll take the risk of repeating it:

Since the glow discharge primarily affects the W  mechanically, it makes
sense to place the cathode at the bottom of a tube, and make it out of
tungsten powder, with a solid tungsten electrode at the bottom.  The deeper
the powder, the more the voltage division between the top of the powder and
the solid electrode.  If the ou effect is due to a surface effect between
tungsten and the plasma, it should be increased due to the massive increase
in surface area.  It would be interesting to find out how deep into the
powder plasma discharges might go.  At *some* suficient voltage, it seems
certain that there would be such a plasma discharge within the powder or on
its surface.  The advantage aimed at, of course, is longer cathode life.
This idea is based on the notion that the anode geometry is not so
important, only the surface area and mean distance to the cathode surface.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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>Since the glow discharge primarily affects the W  mechanically, it makes
>sense to place the cathode at the bottom of a tube, and make it out of
>tungsten powder, with a solid tungsten electrode at the bottom.  The deeper
>the powder, the more the voltage division between the top of the powder and
>the solid electrode.  If the ou effect is due to a surface effect between
>tungsten and the plasma, it should be increased due to the massive increase
>in surface area.  It would be interesting to find out how deep into the
>powder plasma discharges might go.  At *some* suficient voltage, it seems
>certain that there would be such a plasma discharge within the powder or on
>its surface.  The advantage aimed at, of course, is longer cathode life.
>This idea is based on the notion that the anode geometry is not so
>important, only the surface area and mean distance to the cathode surface.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          

Once again, Horace, my applause for an exellent idea.  Do you think that the
magnetic stirring may be unnecessary?  Sorry to hear about the angina
attack.  Take care,

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 12 18:39:31 1999
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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: Mark Goldes <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 18:37:42 -0700
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On 11-Jun-99, Mark Goldes, wrote:
>"All truth passes through three stages.  First, it is ridiculed.  Second, it
>is violently opposed.  Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."        
>Schopenhauer

Yes. My next favorite is, "Sacred cows make great hamburger." Mark Twain :)
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 12 20:14:09 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: RE: Cathode destroyed mechanically
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"Mechanical" might not be the right word here.

A brief description of EDM machining principles can be found at:

http://www.edmtt.com/images/principles.pdf

In it they say:

"Each discharge melts or vaporizes a small area of the workpiece surface.
This molten metal is then cooled in the dielectric fluid and solidifies
into a small spherical particle (swarf) which is flushed away by
pressure/motion of the dielectric."

I will attempt to image the particles produced in our cell with a
high-power optical microscope.  I'll report my findings here, probably on
Monday.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 12 23:35:47 1999
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From: aki ix.netcom.com
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Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 22:40:03 -0700
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June 12, 1999
 
Vortex,

Back in September, '98, I ran a dual tungsten rod 'dry run' arcing
experiment using tap water in a 12 gallon SS vat. The tungsten rods were
immersed at the insulated bottom, about 1 1/2 in. apart and 3 inches
exposed running a full wave DC up to around at least 3 KW (I have to
refer to my notes then) for about an hour. I had rigged up about a 10
KW  max power supply.
There were no arcing (not enough loose ions I guess) but the water got
very close to boiling after an hour. The water got turbid with brownish
colloids which settled to the bottom after shutoff. One of the rods
developed a canary yellow coating which was ascertained to be tungsten
oxide. The other rod rod remained relatively clear except for a thin
white coating. Examination of a section of the coated rod revealed pits
and fissures. Another run with distilled water (smaller volume) revealed
the same effects except on a much smaller scale of current drawn and
oxidation. It was at least a tenth or much less. The SS vat developed a
color pattern resembling a steel heat treatment pattern half way across
the interior perimeter. I had the requisite chemicals to proceed furthur
into the Ohmori- type experiment but quit and dismanteled the setup for
other interests.
 
In looking up on tungsten, I found that because of its high melting
temperature, rods are not made from pouring metal into molds or some
procedure used for lower melting metals. Rather, they are first
chemically obtained as small metal particles which are sintered together
to a larger size which is then shaped mechanically. This suggests why
the rods were destroyed mechanically under arcing --- the violence of
the arcing shook apart the sintering seams chemically and mechanically
to leave that pile on the bottom. Just speculating.
 
Tungsten powder is available for about $80.00 for 500 grams. Heffner has
a good idea to use powdered tungsten.
 
-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 13 03:40:21 1999
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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 03:37:39 -0700
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Vorts,

 Out of the corner of my ear, I heard an announcement that Mike McKubre
would be on talk radio. I don't know, exactly, what date. It would be
between 5 and 7pm, Pacific time, this coming week. L.A. folk know the
station.

On the net, it would be at, http://www.kiev870.com

Perhaps, someone knows the precise date,  
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 13 08:06:53 1999
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Subject: PLEC: Karanev
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There is a voluminous article by Karanev in IE#25 that discusses the very
phenomenon we are exploring in the Mizuno-Ohmori cell.

I don't begin to understand everything that Karanev is saying in this
article.  However, he puts forth a concept in the opening paragraphs that
is wrong.  On p 52, he presents a tentative energy balance eqn for the
hydrogen atom's binding energy in the ground and first excited states.

                 13.6eV + 10.2eV = 3.4eV

He notes the obvious math error above and says "physicists had to suppose
that the energy of the electron in the atom is negative and (1) can be
rewritten as:

                 -13.6eV + 10.2eV = -3.4eV

Thus mathematical logic was regained.  However, the physical logic is not
clear yet.  It can be supposed that the potential energy of the electron in
the atom is negative, but it has kinetic energy too, and this cannot be
negative.  However, this physical contradiction was accepted and forgotten."

What is Karanev is talking about here?  It is a simple matter to intergrate
the force between the electron and the proton from infinity to the Bohr
radius and show that the electrostatic potential energy of the electron in
the hydrogen ground state is -27.2 eV.  The difference between that and the
"book value" for the binding energy, +13.6 eV, IS the positive kinetic
energy of the electron in the ground state.  In other words, the kinetic
energy of the electron has already been accounted for when we say that the
binding energy of the electron is -13.6 eV.

Much of the rest of the article centers around real energy-releasing
reactions that do occur for example when atomic hydrogen becomes molecular
hydrogen.  Karanev implies that somehow the cell can make atomic hydrogen
without absorbing an equal quantity of energy:  

"...the excess of protons at the cathode is not formed due to the increase
of the voltage (in this case the inlet power [would have] to increase
proportionally), but on the basis of the use of the kinetic energy of the
primary protons released from the bonds and by the chain reaction of
getting free protons from the molecules H2O and H3O+.  Just for this
reason, the increase of the quantity of free protons is not associated with
an increased consumption of energy for their formation.  Here is hidden the
main source of excess energy."

Nice words, but there is no explanation of how the energy requirement of
freeing up those protons is supplied....or where that energy actually comes
from.

On the positive side, he presents some o-u experimental results and shows
that the maximum COP occurs at a similar operating point on the I-V curve
that Mizuno finds...i.e. with the plasma well-developed...not down on the
lower leg of the hysteresis curve where the plasma is barely going.
Further, his I-V curve (p. 55) maybe looks more like mine than Mizuno's.

...and then there's his "gas-steam" experiment.  He reports a COP of 4 !!!
I wonder what the electrodes were made of and what quantity of their metal
was oxidized during this run.  That must be taken into account when
quantifying the 
excess hydrogen gas produced.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 13 10:04:37 1999
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To: Vortex

The Gibbs Free Energy for WO2 & H2O:

delta G = A + BT + CT*log T

WO2;  300 to 1800 K

A  = -595,492 (joule/mole)
B = 291.31
C = -14.99

At 1,000 K    delta G WO2 = -83, 400  (joule/mole)   delta G   H2O ~ =  -
41,700 (joule/mole)

2 H2O +  E  =   WO2 + 2  H2
2(- 41.7) + E =  -83.4
                  E = -83.4 + 83.4
                  E =  0.00

However, the nanoparticle tungsten from disintegration of the cathode plus
the O2 from the Anode
mixed into the agitated 85 degree C water:

O2 + W + E   =     WO2
                 E  =  - 29,615    (joule/mole)   exotherm

and,   H2O + WO2 ---->      WO3  +   H2
          H2O + WO3 ---->    2 H+   +    WO4 =

Plus many more possible pathways, such as: O3 + W ---->  WO3   (exothermic)

One needs to see what the H2 - O2 - Steam Off-Gas, looks like.

At the price of  Electricity and Tungsten, expensive energy?

Regards,    Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 13 10:36:30 1999
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From: Ross Tessien <Tessien oro.net>
Subject: Re: Solar Physics (was Re: Mention of Ionisation ,,,Re:
  Hydrino  Theory ?)
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If you go to the SOHO home page, (any search should turn it up or I could
go do it if you don't get it right away), you will find a list of each of
the experiments on board SOHO, along with sample images of each instrument
and a bit of a description about what they are checking for.

Those pages lead off to more detailed information.  But the best info I
have found is in the various converence proceeding, but those cost $225+ to
get, so probably not something you want.  I have info, and am in contact
with some of the neutrino researchers who are seeking periodicities in the
neutrino data.  No strong periodicities found so far, but the neutrino dato
is really sparce so this isn't really saying much.

As far as peering into the interior of the sun, there are intriguing
results coming out of SOI, GONG etc.  The long period oscillations are
those of low order.  Translated, this means that they peer into deeper
depths of the solar structure and they are seeking oscillation modes that
penetrate the core.  They are moving forward continuously, as that data
falls out of computer analysis of large time durations of data collection.
ie, the longer the period of the wave, the longer you need to take data in
order for that waveform to show up in analysis.

I have been out of the loop on SOHO stuff for quite a while due to the
satellite going on and off line so much due to loss of gyro's, pointing, etc.

rt


At 08:30 AM 6/12/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>The best defender of the SSM (Standard Solar Model) is J. N. Bahcall.
>>As far as I am concerned the best alternative is due to Wick Haxton.  I'll
>>give you two references to start http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/nucl-th/9712049
>>and http://www.itp.ucsb.edu/online/snu/ 
>
>Robert, thank you for the references.
>
>Gene Malove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 13 10:36:39 1999
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Subject: NEA, NPR
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Forwarded message:
On NPR Morning Edition this morning, Nina Totenberg said that if the 
Supreme Court supports Congress, it is in effect the end of NEA. Then 
there's the question of Congressional Funding; Funding for NPR,NEA and 
PBS and the arts are facing major cutbacks in funding. In spite of the 
efforts of each station to reduce spending costs and streamline their 
services, some government officials believe that the funding currently 
going to these programs is too large a portion of funding for something 
which is seen as not worthwhile.
Currently, taxes from the general public for PBS equals $l.l2 per person 
per year and the NEA equals $.64 per year. A 1/95 Gallup Poll indicated 
that 76% of all Americans wish to keep funding for PBS, third only to 
national defense and law enforcement as the most valuable programs for 
federal funding.
Each year,the Senate and House Appropriation Committees each have 13 
subcommittees and each subcommittee passes its own appropriation bill 
for 
the program that is it's concern. The goal each year is to have each 
bill signed by the beginning of the fiscal year (Oct. 1st). So we must 
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Please add your name to it and keep the petition rolling. Do not reply 
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If many people receive the same letter, it won't matter as the names are 
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and Senator as well.
If you sign, pass it on to others. If not, please don't kill it - send 
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This way we can keep track of the lists and organize them.
NOTE: It is preferable that you SELECT the entirety of this letter and 
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it. In your new message add your name to the bottom of the list, then 
send it on. Or, if option is available, do a SEND AGAIN.
872)Anita R. Shapiro, Millburn, NJ 
873)Irving Shapiro, Millburn, NJ 
874)Jane Becker, Montclair, NJ 
875) Kay Osborn, Jersey City, NJ 
876) Carol Hofmann, Oakland, CA
877) Ron Hofmann, Oakland, CA 
878) Michael Cannon, Nevada City, CA
879) Ross Tessien, Nevada City, CA

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 13 11:02:05 1999
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To: Vortex

Oops!

O2 + W ---->   WO2 + 523,000   joules/mole

O3 + W ----> WO3 + 754,000  joules/mole

The O3 (or  OH + H ) can be made by the action of the UV from the discharge
on the water.

Regards,      Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 13 11:06:10 1999
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[snip]
>...and then there's his "gas-steam" experiment.  He reports a COP of 4 !!!
>I wonder what the electrodes were made of and what quantity of their metal
>was oxidized during this run.  That must be taken into account when
>quantifying the
>excess hydrogen gas produced.

Scott,

At Alexander Frolov's web site:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Campus/4377/cd.htmlo

it states that as of 6/5/99, Kanarev achieved a COP of 40.

Regards,   Michael

>Scott Little
>EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
>512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX)
>little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 13 11:27:04 1999
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Subject: Re: NEA, NPR  <- idiotic SPAM!
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Quoting from the message:

> pass it on to others

If it says that in a message, it's a pass-along virus. It's annoying spam.

If you see that in a message, DON'T post it to the list!

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 13 16:05:39 1999
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On Sat, 12 Jun 1999, Michael T Huffman wrote:
> 
> OFF WITH THEIR HEADS, REMI!!!  8^)
> 
> Knuke
> 
> PS Got any peanuts?

Elephants like peanuts!
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 13 19:09:21 1999
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Test.

K. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 13 20:06:06 1999
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Craig Scott <cscott csb.swnebr.net>
To: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 1999 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: Tractors for Sale

What will you take for your Super Cub, Frank>  :-) 


> I want 2100 for the 9N and 3000 for the 8N.     The 8N will come with the
> blade and 2 bottom-plow.  If you want the 9N with the equipment  I would
> take offers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
> To: cscott csb.swnebr.net <cscott@csb.swnebr.net>
> Date: Sunday, June 13, 1999 2:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Tractors for Sale
> 
> 
> >Craig:
> >
> >Do you have a ballpark asking  price for the 9N or 8N?
> >
> >Regards,       Fred Sparber    Belen,  New Mexico   505-864-7095
> >
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 14 00:46:38 1999
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>June 12, 1999
> 
>Vortex,
>
>Back in September, '98, I ran a dual tungsten rod 'dry run' arcing
>experiment using tap water in a 12 gallon SS vat. The tungsten rods were
>immersed at the insulated bottom, about 1 1/2 in. apart and 3 inches
>exposed running a full wave DC up to around at least 3 KW (I have to
>refer to my notes then) for about an hour. I had rigged up about a 10
>KW  max power supply.

Just some comments on this experiment.  I just went over my collection of
notes on W, and found some interesting things.  One of the first things that
came to mind was that we have been discussing the possible energetic
reaction pathways with W as a cathode now for about 3 years, and a lot of
today's current discussion is sort of a loopy re-hash with some major points
that were discussed 3 years ago being left out and unconsidered in the
design of the current experiments.  We may be getting lazy about this or
burned out, or we haven't kept good enough notes or we're just not reading
them.  As an example, my notes say that aqua regia has little effect on W,
and that is what Scott is using to clean his cathodes, if I remember correctly.

Even my own efforts at organizing my own notes have fallen way behind
because of the time it takes to do it.  Also, due to my recent relocation, I
have accumulated about 4000 e-mails over a 4 month period that have gone
unread, so there is probably a lot of stuff that is in there that pertains
specifically to W that I haven't even seen, let alone had a chance to
forget.  I still haven't had time to read the EDM stuff that Scott just
recommended, nor have I had the time to go over all the new stuff that BLP
has put out.  Lump all that with the fact that much of my educational
background came from reading Bazooka Bubblegum wrappers, and you can call
this a suitable preface for the following observations.

1.  The fact that the W rods might have been sintered never even entered my
mind as a possibility in the manufacture of any W materials.  It's not been
mentioned in any of my notes either, from what I have in front of me.  This
opens up an incredibly large can of legless, slimey critters as far as the
material science aspect goes.

2.  Sintering, from what I understand, creates a metal lattice that has some
of the properties of the pure material, but has large enough holes in it
that it can be a sponge for all kinds of things - even complex molecules and
clathrates.  This makes any replication effort a nightmare of guesswork, and
I'll give some examples of why later.  If the foils and wires that have been
tried in the past are also manufactured this way, then any attempt to
calculate or predict any reactions based on any reference book values would
be pretty dicey.  If the reference book values themselves were made from W
material that was not meticulously purified, melted, and poured for a
testing sample, then we are really in the weeds here.  Everything from the
density to the conductivity would vary from sample to sample depending on
the way it was sintered, and how consistent the batches were.  Post
handling, storage location, shipping, preparation techniques, all of that
stuff would occur after the manufacture, and it would introduce a host of
unknowns into the material.  Even the air that it was exposed to and the age
of the material would have to be duplicated.  This couldn't possibly be the
case for these foils, could it?

3.  The use of tap water in any experiment is just not a good idea, for many
of the same reasons as listed above.  I've mentioned this before, but a good
relationship with your local EPA testing lab personnel will give you an
education that you don't want to miss out on.  Tap water can contain some of
the foulest stuff you can imagine, and some of it is even part of the
"treatment" process.  Chlorine, the halogen, is poison.  I read somewhere in
the Mizuno papers that Jed passed along, that it was one of the post run
ingredients measured in his solution as being less than 10ppm.  Well, that's
not really such a negligible amount, in fact, it surpasses the recommended
amount for drinking water treatment plants, which I think used to be around
7ppm for large cities.  When I did my cavitation experiments using tap
water, the whole place would smell like a swimming pool.  It ragged my
throat, eyes and sinuses something fierce, and gave me headaches.  I wasn't
working with large flow rates or volumes, either - well under 12 gallons in
most of my experiments.  I don't recall, but there was also no discussion as
to why Cl would be found in the post run samples anyway.  How would it get
there?

4.  The Radon gas issue has been almost entirely overlooked in these CF
experiments.  Also a halogen, and a radioactive material, Radon has been
found not only in many well-water drinking water systems, but also, since it
is so heavy, it tends to collect and pool in unventilated spaces like
basements (and calorimeters).  Underground storage of any material like
sintered W for any length of time could contain large quantities of Radon or
other of the heavy halogens like Xenon simply from displacement of the
lighter gases.  Underground storage of materials is not uncommon, and
property owners will fight tooth and nail to avoid facing the Radon gas
inspections because it lowers the value of the property if it is found.  If
they know that there is gas present, and they don't take immediate steps to
rectify the situation, then they can be held liable for any resulting health
damages caused to workers and purchasers of products containing Radon.  The
real estate industry is notoriously corrupt in this country, and could well
be in Japan in this regard.  I seriously doubt if any environmental
considerations are enacted or enforced in Russian real estate transactions
either.

Two anecdotal reports come to mind of large explosions where Radon may have
played a part.  One was in Seattle around 1980.  Hewlett Packard
manufactured some scientific calculators with the latest Lithium ion
batteries installed in them.  Seattle has a lot of unused, underground
tunnel space from the underground city, some of which was leased as storage
space to HP, and the electric company also utilized it to run large power
lines under the city.  The official story was that one of the manufacturing
runs of these calculators had a flaw in the circuit board design that formed
a loop antenna even when turned off, and that the Li ion batteries
overcharged, and went off like handgranades in this underground facility.
It was located by these main power lines, and it blew them up, causing a
black out in a six square block area of the Belltown area of downtown
Seattle for a couple of days until the power company could reroute the
lines.  Li ion batteries are pretty destructive on their own, but the
presence of Radon may have contributed to the effect.

I've also read reports while researching the proper handling of Lead acid
batteries, that they have to be stored on a dialectric material or the
charge will drain.  There have been many reports of Pb acid batteries going
up in unventilated areas, everyone has read them, and the amount of
destruction is really not that much.  I've seen, myself, an entire bank of
four marine batteries that went up, and they basically just flashed, blew
the cases apart, and splashed acid all over the place.  There have been
reports, however, of Pb acid batteries stored on concrete floors in
Basements, where the ensuing fire department investigation revealed a six
foot crater where the single car battery use to be.  Again it's difficult to
say, but Radon may have been a factor.

5. Mercury is another common contaminant that evaporates at low temps, and
is heavy enough to displace lighter gases in a sintered W material.  It is
also a very nasty neurotoxin.  I just read in my local paper that the EPA
has been finding large quantities of mercury in the garbage that goes to the
local incinerator.  They are using a "jeromemeter" to find it, but I haven't
had time to look that one up.  The county administrators thought that they
were being progressive when they put in a co-generation power
plant/incinerator to dispose of the tons of garbage that they used to put
into landfills.  Now they are spewing heavy metal toxins over a wide area.
They don't do much underground storage of anything around here because the
land is cheap, and basements in sandy soils are difficult to build, but it's
something to consider looking for in a sintered W sample before putting it
into an open electrolysis cell, or vat, as it were.  It may also explain why
everyone I've met down here so far is out of their flipping minds.  I just
assumed it was a cultural thing.

6.  Nitrogen is also quite common, it is in air, and it is used in some UV
laser designs that I have seen.  That could be in your water, distilled or
tap, and your sintered W.  There was a report of cavitation bubbles being
dipole lasers.  I didn't put the two things together until this evening.
It's another thing that I don't recall seeing much discussion of in the
electrolysis type CF literature or the cavitation literature.  I know that
there is a test for dissolved Oxygen in water, is there one for Nitrogen?
Akira's power supply was not exactly low voltage.  Maybe it was just lucky
the experiment didn't work.

7.  I've been going on for a while now about the Brown's Gas claim of having
the ability to sublimate Tungsten.  Akira's report makes me think that maybe
I should downgrade the claim from "completely miraculous" to "merely
explainable by a thousand different possible mechanisms".  After 25+ years
of that thing being around, the progress sure has been slow.  I still wonder
why there have been no published reports from any of the national
laboratories or state universities in over 25 years on Brown's Gas,
describing their tests, protocols, and results.

8.  Sintered metal would create an enormous number of alternately forming
and collapsing eddie currents throughout the material when charged.
Resonant cavities?  It's not easy, this one.:-)

Knuke



 

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 14 07:20:45 1999
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Michael T Huffman wrote:

with snips:

> Lump all that with the fact that much of my educational
> background came from reading Bazooka Bubblegum wrappers, ---

Well, a fellow alumus of Bazooka U.! Pal gums were nice too.
> 
> 1.  The fact that the W rods might have been sintered never even entered my
> mind as a possibility in the manufacture of any W materials.

The question came to mind: If W has the highest melting point of
anything in existance,
What is the refining process? 

> 2.  Sintering, from what I understand, creates a metal lattice that has some
> of the properties of the pure material, but has large enough holes in it
> that it can be a sponge for all kinds of things - even complex molecules and
> clathrates.  

In Tungsten, although sintered, a process of producing a purer product
has to be involved to obtain the malleability (and thus, purity)
necessary to produce the foils, wires, and larger solids. The indicated
purity of the products sold seem to indicate this. It wouldn't hurt to
degas before use though, I would think. 

> 3.  The use of tap water in any experiment is just not a good idea, for many
> of the same reasons as listed above.

The 'dry run' was essentially to test the setup as organized. Especially
the power supply. And the setup was run outside of the garage in the
open air to lessen the worry dissipating explosive gases. I was not into
collecting and examining gases yet,
or to blow up the house.I figured tap water was a weak electrolyte
anyway. The steam and gas smelled clean enough --- no chlorine odors.
There were no RF interference either. No sparking. Probably would have
detected them with an arcing solution.

> 5. ----- It may also explain why everyone I've met down here so far is out of their >flipping minds.  I just assumed it was a cultural thing.

I believe the people there are not indigenous to the area but possibly
come there already affected, like from the New York and areas in the
Northeast states. : )
 
> 6. ---
> Akira's power supply was not exactly low voltage. 

Actually, I went looking for a twenty gallon glass lined electric water
heater to conduct the experiment in. It was too clumsy to rig up --- you
know, just to chase the CF hot water challenge at the same time. Really.
: ) The maximum voltage available was 0-540 volts, 20 amps. I do not
think I used the whole thing. I think the heater unit in a water tank
ran at 1-1.5 kilowatts.

>Maybe it was just lucky the experiment didn't work.

Well after the dry run, I felt there were too many variables in the
experiment that I could not catch with my simple meters and
thermometers. Maybe next time later. Keeping everything available, even
the used rods and water samples. Meanwhile, on to other stuff. Learning
all the time. And forgetting too. 

-AK-

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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Subject: W sublimation in BG
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 10:16:48 -0400
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Knuke,

>
> 7.  I've been going on for a while now about the Brown's Gas
> claim of having
> the ability to sublimate Tungsten.  Akira's report makes me think
> that maybe
> I should downgrade the claim from "completely miraculous" to "merely
> explainable by a thousand different possible mechanisms".

Actually, the sharp point of the W rod that is left is a pretty sure sign to
me that the W is not vaporizing, and my not be even melting, but instead,
something akin to eroding.  Melting will occur where heat cannot be removed
fast enough by any means, and conduction through the rest of the W is the
most effective per surface exposed for a piece of W. IOW, the tip of the rod
that is in the flame ought to melt into a shape that retains a lot of
surface area with the rest of the rod where it can dump its heat.  If
sublimation were to take place in the part of the W that is hottest, which
would be the tip, then the rod end ought to be a lump, not a needle.

The process of sharpening involves removing material from around a point
without actually removing the point.  That is what is seen in the W rod in
the BG flame.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

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Chuck Davis writes:

	Yes. My next favorite is, "Sacred cows make great hamburger."
	Mark Twain :)

That probably wasn't Twain. The term "hamburger" was coined sometime after
1902, and Twain died in 1910. He might have said "hamburg steak." That term
may have been in use as early as 1836. The first recorded instance was in
1884 in the Boston Journal. "Hamburger steak" was first recorded in a Walla
Walla, Washington newspaper in 1889.

- Jed - does etymology not entomology; not big on bugs

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Trivial Pursuit?

On Mon, 14 Jun 1999, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Chuck Davis writes:
> 
> 	Yes. My next favorite is, "Sacred cows make great hamburger."
> 	Mark Twain :)
> 
> That probably wasn't Twain. The term "hamburger" was coined sometime after
> 1902, and Twain died in 1910. He might have said "hamburg steak." That term
> may have been in use as early as 1836. The first recorded instance was in
> 1884 in the Boston Journal. "Hamburger steak" was first recorded in a Walla
> Walla, Washington newspaper in 1889.
> 
> - Jed - does etymology not entomology; not big on bugs
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 14 09:41:12 1999
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Subject: Re: An apt quotation
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Regarding etymology, Remi asks:

>Trivial Pursuit?

Board game, introduced 1984. Probably unrelated to to Parkinson's Law of
Triviality: "the time spent on any item of the agenda will be in inverse
proportion to the sum involved." - C. Northcote Parkinson (1909-93),
"Parkinson's Law."

Next question, please.

- JR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 14 09:45:15 1999
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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: Jed Rothwell <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 09:37:14 -0700
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On 14-Jun-99, Jed Rothwell, wrote:
>Chuck Davis writes:

>Yes. My next favorite is, "Sacred cows make great hamburger."
>Mark Twain :)

>That probably wasn't Twain. The term "hamburger" was coined sometime after
>1902, and Twain died in 1910. He might have said "hamburg steak." That term
>may have been in use as early as 1836. The first recorded instance was in
>1884 in the Boston Journal. "Hamburger steak" was first recorded in a Walla
>Walla, Washington newspaper in 1889.

>- Jed - does etymology not entomology; not big on bugs

 Oh, well, leave it to Jed :^] Good thing, that I don't /think/ that I
know anything about CF ;)
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\--
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'
http://www.post-trauma.com/roshi.html
http://www.Starsaga.com/biofeedback.htm

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On Mon, 14 Jun 1999, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> Next question, please.

When can I have a CF powered house, the World's been waiting .. sometime.


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Chuck wrote:
>With reference to Eachus' "visual purple", Edgar Cayce, described this
>as the `space' he's in, when he does/did his work. The Tibetans call
>it the "blue bindu". So, there is a reported basis. 
 
    Just to be clear, visual purple is a chemical that increases the
sensitivity of the retina, and is normally produced by the body from beta
carotene.  It is not a catalyst--more is used in bright light than in low
light or dark conditions.  At night your eyes replenish the supply of
visual purple, and this is what happens during "dark adaption."   The
process takes 15 minutes to an hour in most people, and is why ships and
aircraft use red illumination on the bridge or in the cockpit at night.
Photons of red light don't have enough energy to break down the visual
purple, so it doesn't destroy dark adaption. 

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Quotes from Townes book
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I mentioned the Townes book the other day, and problem with the rings in
the maser. Here is the quote, describing events in 1954:

	. . . The problem was that our cavities were a bit too lossy
	(too low in Q) to allow a resonant wave to build up as it
	bounced back and forth. We solved this problem little by little.

	       The idea all along was that, as we sent the molecular
	beam from one end of the cavity to the other, amplification
	would occur in microwaves reflecting back and forth across the
	cavity, more or less at right angles to the direction of flow in
	the molecular beam. Originally, we felt the whole cavity should
	be as enclosed as possible, but this was inconsistent with the
	job of getting molecules in and out. If holes in the cavity to
	let molecules through were too large, the resonating radiation
	might leak out the ends faster than it could build up.
	Adequately sealing the cavity to microwaves while getting
	molecules through it was a tricky problem. We kept trying
	different metal rings fitted into the necessary holes in the
	ends of the cavity. They could perhaps keep microwaves from
	escaping too fast while letting molecules pass. The solution,
	when it came, was simple. One day, Jim Gordon opened the ends
	almost completely; that was what put it over the top. Without a
	ring in each end, we could get plenty of molecules through the
	cavity. Our worry over too much radiation leaking from the ends
	was unnecessary. Apparently, without the rings, the pattern of
	radiation in the cavity became simpler and more efficiently
	confined . . .

	- Charles H. Townes, "How the Laser Happened," (Oxford
	University Press, 1999), p. 66

The idea of the stimulated emmission was "recognized here and there" by
1950. The first working maser took three years to build, 1951 - 1954. It
was constructed by Townes and three graduate students, Gorden, Zeiger and
Dousmanis. Many people thought the project was a mistake:

	One day after we had been at it for about two years, Rabi and
	Kusch, the former and current chairmen of the department -- both
	of them Nobel laureates for work with atomic and molecular
	beams, and both with a lot of weight behind their opinions --
	came into my office and sat down. They were worried. Their
	research depended on support from the same source as did mine.
	"Look," they said, "you should stop the work you are doing. It
	isn't going to work. You know it's not going to work. We know
	it's not going to work. You're wasting money. Just stop!"

		The problem was that I was still an outsider to the field
	of molecular beams, as they saw it. . . . I simply told them
	that I thought it had a reasonable chance and that I would
	continue. I was then indeed thankful that I had come to Columbia
	with tenure.

	- Ibid., p. 65

Sounds familiar! They soon built another maser and operated the two
together to test the purity of the signal. But skeptical opposition
continued for a few years:

	Before -- and even after -- the maser worked, our description of
	its performance met with disbelief from highly respected
	physicists, even though no new physical principles were really
	involved. Their objections went much deeper than those that had
	led Rabi and Kusch to try to kill the project in its cradle . . .

		Llewelyn H. Thomas, a noted Columbia theorist, told me
	that the maser flatly could not, due to basic physics
	principles, provide a pure frequency with the performance I
	predicted. So certain was he that he more or less refused to
	listen to my explanations. After it did work, he just stopped
	talking to me. . . .

		. . . I visited Denmark and saw Niels Bohr . . . I
	described the maser and its performance. "But that is not
	possible," he exclaimed. I assured him it was. Similarly, at a
	cocktail party in Princeton, New Jersey, the Hungarian
	mathematician John von Neumann asked what I was working on.
	After I told him about the maser and the purity of its
	frequency, he declared, "That can't be right!" But it was, I
	replied, and told him it was already demonstrated.

		Such protests were not offhand opinions concerning obscure
	aspects of physics; they came from the marrow of these men's
	bones. These were objections founded on principle -- the
	uncertainty principle. . . .

	- Ibid., p. 69

The maser and laser was easier to reproduce and demonstrate than CF.
Prokhorov and Basov were working on similar ideas in the early fifies,
although they had not succeed by 1955. Townes met with them at a physics
conference in 1955 and explained his device in detail, "including the
importance of the quadropole focuser," which Townes learned about 1951 from
the German physicist Paul. Prokhorov and Basov successfuly repliced the
maser very soon after Townes explained the technical details. By the end of
the 1950s, practical, "tunable" and solid state masers were developed.
Patent wars over masers and lasers soon erupted, which took up much of
Townes' time. As far as I know, he and the Research Corporation won all of
the major patent disputes, so the fact that he shared his knowledge early
and often did not hurt his case.

Townes stresses the vital importance of openness, discussing ideas,
learning from others, and sharing detailed technical knowledge. Needless to
say, these qualities have been totally lacking in cold fusion, which is the
main reason the field is "constipated" -- as McKubre put it. The CF
scientists blame the opposition and the Patent Office, but Townes and the
other maser and laser pioneers also fought opposition and the P.O., and
they succeeded. The more I read the history of science, technology, and
business, the more convinced I am that the CF scientists themselves to
mainly blame for their own predicament.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 14 13:28:13 1999
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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: "Robert I. Eachus" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:22:37 -0700
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On 14-Jun-99, Robert I. Eachus, wrote:

>Chuck wrote:
>>With reference to Eachus' "visual purple", Edgar Cayce, described this
>>as the `space' he's in, when he does/did his work. The Tibetans call
>>it the "blue bindu". So, there is a reported basis. 
> 
>    Just to be clear, visual purple is a chemical that increases the
>sensitivity of the retina, and is normally produced by the body from beta
>carotene.  It is not a catalyst--more is used in bright light than in low
>light or dark conditions.  At night your eyes replenish the supply of
>visual purple, and this is what happens during "dark adaption."   The
>process takes 15 minutes to an hour in most people, and is why ships and
>aircraft use red illumination on the bridge or in the cockpit at night.
>Photons of red light don't have enough energy to break down the visual
>purple, so it doesn't destroy dark adaption. 

>                                        Robert I. Eachus

 Indeed! The only point I was trying to make is that this process could
 be trained and how it might be done, 
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\--
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'
http://www.post-trauma.com/roshi.html
http://www.Starsaga.com/biofeedback.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 14 13:42:35 1999
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Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 14:33:59 -0600
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Subject: Murray: Case cell He artifact  6.14.99
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June 14, 1999   Hello,  Ron McFee [ mcfee lanl.gov ] dropped by
yesterday, and we had a nice chat under my spreading red plum tree in my
back yard.  He said Tom Claytor [ claytor lanl.gov ] would be visiting
Mike McKubre soon to check out his apparent success at generating He-4
in the Case cell: a 50-cc SS metal cell, using a commercial porous C
catalyst, plated with 0.4% Pd, 10 gm, 0.5 gm/cc, from D2 at ~3.4 atm and
200 deg C, a linear rise from day 5 to 27 to almost 11 ppm, with
background 5.22 ppm in lab air:  paper by Russ George
[ rgeorge rsrch.com ] on work 
with Fran Tanzella [ fran_tanzella qm.sri.com ]
and Mike McKubre at SRI Mike_mckubre qm.sri.com ], funded by DARPA.

http://rsrch.com/saturna/APSpapers_1998_1999.htm

The initial He-4 concentration in the cell was 0.1-0.3 ppm, the
limit of the MS instrument.

"After loading the now-modified vessel with D2 and raising the
temperature to about 200° C using about 9.3 watts of heating, helium
was measured at 0.2ppm (the same level found in the D2 source cylinder).
The Joule heating for the control vessel was ~ 9.7 watts.

Our thermometry / calorimetry at this point in time is insufficient to
make any declaration as to an excess heat effect.

After about 4 days the helium content of the D2 vessel began
to increase on a steady basis. (see data figure 2)
while the other "control" vessel showed 4He remaining
at the instrument background level of 0.1-0.3 ppm. After
several days observing that the background levels of helium had not
grown in the control vessel while it appeared to be growing steadily
in the D2 vessel it was decided to flush the H2 from the control vessel
and add D2. A series of several flushes to vacuum and fills with D2 was
undertaken finally leaving the vessel filled with ~3.4 atm D2. Over the
course of 27 subsequent days analysis samples were taken on a frequent
but not quite daily basis (see data figure 1) while the paired vessels
were held at ~200° - 210° C.

Helium steadily increased in the one vessel exceeding the potential
"diffusion leak" concentration of 1.2 ppm on approximately day eight.
By day 27 the helium content of the vessel had reached 11.0 ppm
(5x10E16 atoms 4He) well above the ambient air concentration of 5.22
ppm. The rate of 4He production conforms to approximately 90-100
milliwatts of power. This power output conforms very favorably to the
expected power of ~100 milliwatts predicted from Case’s originally
reported power measurements when adjustment is made for the
substantially smaller vessel used in these experiments. The "control"
experiment tells us the helium we observe is coming from neither the
walls of the experimental vessel nor from helium somehow entrained in
the starting material and now being cooked out. It is believed this
control" cell is not producing helium because of inadequate flushing
of the hydrogen with deuterium during the deuterium filling process.
However it is noted that in the extensive experience of Case many
palladium on carbon catalyst samples both from United Catalysts and
other suppliers do not produce the observed isotopic heating effect."

Yesterday, Ron McFee and I were unable to imagine a possible
artifact that could generate these dramatic results.  Today,
however, at 6 AM I was awake, hoping to record some dreams. 
None were available, but I suddenly saw the possible artifact.
Ed Storms had told me that the Case cells produce He only in one out
of two or three runs, and that the cells have to be cleaned
carefully and kept clean: "There are some tricks to it."  So, this
means that it is not surprising that the control cell failed to
show He production.

He, like every other element at some concentration, is a 
ubiquitous trace component of metals.  In the runs that produce
He, it is being baked out of the Pd film.  As Arata emphasizes in
his claims of He production in Pd-black micron-scale particles 
within welded Pd capsule cathodes with electrolysis in heavy
water, the He is stuck tenaciously within the Pd metal, which
has to be heated to ~1300 deg C to be released for measurement.
In the Case cell, at ~3.4 atm and 200-210 deg C of D2, the Pd
film will readily load up with D, and will expand, crack, and
change in crystal phase.  This will facilitate the slow release of
He from the film.  How thick is the Pd film, and what is its
total mass and surface area in the 10 gm of C catalyst?  What
is the geometry of the surface?  What initial concentration of He
in the Pd film would account for the 11 ppm He build-up of
5X10E16 atoms?  Does the build-up of He cease in longer runs?
Of course, such a ceasing of build-up could be explained as
typical deterioration of a catalyst.

"To further confirm that helium was not trapped in the material before
the start of this experiment a sample( ~10mg UC G75-d catalyst ) was
analyzed in the laboratory of Prof. Y. Arata in Osaka Japan. Heating
the sample to a temperature in excess of 1300° C in Prof. Arata’s high
vacuum QMS that is sensitive to approximately 1x106 atoms of 4He
revealed no significant helium was released from the Pd carbon
material. (3)"  But, was this sample exposed to the same cycles of
repeated exposure to lab air and H2 and D2 as the sample that 
seemed to produce He?  Was it from the same specific batch of
catalyst?  How much mass of Pd was tested in the ~10 mg of
catalyst by Arata, compared to the mass of Pd in the 10 gm of
catalyst in the Case cell?  

There may also be some subtle resonances between the mass of D at
amu = 2 and of He at amu = 4, as compared to H at amu = 1, that
increases the ability of D to dislode He from the Pd film.

Until this artifact is proved to be not applicable, then it is
premature to ascribe He build-up in the Case cell to nuclear
reactions, especially since it has not been possible to measure
excess heat.

"The author(s) acknowledge the assistance provided by Mike McKubre
and Fran Tanzella (SRI International), Doug Perkins (United Catalysts
of the Sud Chemie companies), Roger Ray and Len Marshall (mass
spectroscopy Oakridge National Laboratory),  Prof. John Dash (Physics
Portland State University), Andrey Chuvilin (Boreskov Inst. Of
Catalysis, Russia), and Tom Passell (EPRI Nuclear Power Division)."

Rich Murray   Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103  505-920-6130 cellular VoiceStream
rmforall earthlink.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 14 14:46:05 1999
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On Mon, 14 Jun 1999, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> The more I read the history of science, technology, and
> business, the more convinced I am that the CF scientists themselves to
> mainly blame for their own predicament.
> 
> - Jed
> 

Jed you are an honest man. I have much respect for you. Honesty works, you
might not get quite what you want, it might not happen over night, it
might be your work that someone corrects with some minor adjustment - and
then takes all the reward. God is good, there is a benevolent 'force' at
work.  The wicked get punished. 

Just remember, you've got to be able to drop it all, go bankcrupt, start
again 6 months down the line, throughly broken, with every a**hole that
hated you for no reason at all laughing at you and come back fresh with
new ideas and an elephant's hide.

You may not get what you want (might get what you need, so the song goes)
but you'll get something if you work honestly.
Mmmh, radwaste remediation... Creation of rare elements...
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 14 15:53:01 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Quotes from Townes book
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At 4:06 PM 6/14/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:
[snip]
> By the end of
>the 1950s, practical, "tunable" and solid state masers were developed.
>Patent wars over masers and lasers soon erupted, which took up much of
>Townes' time. As far as I know, he and the Research Corporation won all of
>the major patent disputes, so the fact that he shared his knowledge early
>and often did not hurt his case.


US Patent law has changed considerbly since 1950, as has the freedom
afforded by tenure.  In many countries anyuthing disclosed prior to filing
is public domain, and even if such disclosures are discovered after the
patent is issued, they will invalidate it.  The US has brought its patent
law much more closely in line with foreign patent law.


[snip]
> The more I read the history of science, technology, and
>business, the more convinced I am that the CF scientists themselves to
>mainly blame for their own predicament.


Still, many share information freely, and publish.  The main problem is
lack of solid easily replicated or disseminated results.  The more
fundamental and endemic problems are excruciating levels of government,
social, and academic control, even for the tenured, lack of emphasis on
small science, and a patent system skewed in value toward big business
instead of the small entrepreneur it was originally intended to motivate.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Ingredients
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At 5:26 PM 6/12/99, BriggsRO aol.com wrote:

> An electric arc or spark causes a nearly vertical rise in current Vs time
>that looks to a Forier analysis like white noise, with frequency components
>from d.c. through gamma ray.  Unless all else fails to explain or duplicate
>Mizuno's o.u.


White noise will show a uniform distribution or at least smooth
distribution, while natural resonanace peaks will stand out above the
noise.


> I would not spend too much time and thought on the r.f. stuff.

There is no accounting for taste!


>If r.f. is a
>necessary ingredient, perhaps the experiment should be redesigned with a
>controlled r.f.source instead of a Marconi transmitter.


The value of a fast rise time spark is that it stimulates any natural
resonances present.  Knowledge of these is useful in applying a controlled
r.f. source, especially in the case multiple frequencies are applied.  This
is why I suggest that an RF Spectrum analyser might be useful.  It may have
use in optimizing cell performace through choice of EM paramters.  However,
it may simply have value in characterizing and diagnosing the arc/spark
conditions, and provide  some kind of performance criteria useful in
replication, be it directly related to the effect or not.

Though none of them are validated, it is also interesting that nearly all
the anonmalous or free energy approaches have involved AC or pulsed DC, and
that RF phenomena have been observed even from low voltage DC cells.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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   At 04:06 PM 6/14/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Townes stresses the vital importance of openness, discussing ideas,
>learning from others, and sharing detailed technical knowledge. Needless to
>say, these qualities have been totally lacking in cold fusion, which is the
>main reason the field is "constipated" -- as McKubre put it. 

   Nonsense.  There is considerable sharing, although given
the patent issues, there is reasonable withholding of some info.

 -----------------------------------------------------------

>The CF scientists blame the opposition and the Patent Office, but Townes
and the
>other maser and laser pioneers also fought opposition and the P.O., and
>they succeeded. The more I read the history of science, technology, and
>business, the more convinced I am that the CF scientists themselves to
>mainly blame for their own predicament.
>
>- Jed


  Furthermore, there is no evidence that what CF has undergone in
any way, shape, or form, that which happened with lasers or masers.
Maiman, Javan, etc. were never treated such as the CF researchers
who if they were not being attacked by TB-skeptics with their
nonsense, were = and continue = being attacked by Jed Rothwell.  

  Logically, Jed's claim is handwaving similar to that seen on 
spf by the TB-skeptics.  Where is the evidence?  
  Who lost their tenure and reputation with the laser?
The hurdles for laser phenomena were miniscule compare to
that which CF has had to climb.
  Therefore, one suspects that Jed only states this unsupportable premise
to purport it relates to his typical 'blame game' against 
the hardworking cold fusion researchers themselves.

  Mitchell Swartz



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Subject: Re: Murray: Case cell He artifact  6.14.99
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At 02:33 PM 6/14/99 -0600, Richard T. Murray wrote:

>the Case cell: a 50-cc SS metal cell, using a commercial porous C
>catalyst, plated with 0.4% Pd, 10 gm, 0.5 gm/cc, from D2 at ~3.4 atm and
>200 deg C...

>How thick is the Pd film, and what is its
>total mass and surface area in the 10 gm of C catalyst?

At 0.4% Pd, the 10 gms of catalyst contains only 0.4 gm of Pd.

>What initial concentration of He
>in the Pd film would account for the 11 ppm He build-up of
>5X10E16 atoms?

0.83 ppm


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 14 20:54:01 1999
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From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
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Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:44:07 -0700
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Gents-

 Out of the corner of my ear, I heard an announcement that Mike McKubre
would be on talk radio. I don't know, exactly, what date. It would be
between 5 and 7pm, Pacific time, this coming week. L.A. folk know the
station.

On the net, it would be at, http://www.kiev870.com

Yes, it seems that he will be on, tommorrow, Tuesday,
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\--
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'
http://www.post-trauma.com/roshi.html
http://www.Starsaga.com/biofeedback.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 14 21:05:42 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Murray: Case cell He artifact  6.14.99
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 04:00:50 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:39:37 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
[snip]
>
>At 0.4% Pd, the 10 gms of catalyst contains only 0.4 gm of Pd.

One of us must be miscalculating, because I only get 0.04 gm of Pd.

>
>>What initial concentration of He
>>in the Pd film would account for the 11 ppm He build-up of
>>5X10E16 atoms?
>
>0.83 ppm

...and here I get 5E16 / 2.264E26 = 221 ppm?
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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Subject: Re: Murray: Case cell He artifact  6.14.99
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At 04:00 AM 6/15/99 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>...and here I get 5E16 / 2.264E26 = 221 ppm?

...er....the ratio you mention above works out to 0.00022 ppm.  There are
about 2.26E21 Pd atoms in the catalyst so you probably meant 5E16/2.26E21
which yields 22 ppm, which is the required atomic He concentration.  My
figure, 0.83 ppm, is the weight concentration.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Murray: Case cell He artifact  6.14.99
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 05:49:11 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 23:30:01 -0500, Scott Little wrote:

>At 04:00 AM 6/15/99 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>>...and here I get 5E16 / 2.264E26 = 221 ppm?
>
>...er....the ratio you mention above works out to 0.00022 ppm.  There are

Sorry, don't know where I got the E26 from, should have been 2.264E20.

10 gm x 0.4% (not 4%?) = 0.04 gm / 106.4 gm/mole = 2.264E20.

>about 2.26E21 Pd atoms in the catalyst so you probably meant 5E16/2.26E21

5E16/2.264E20 = 221 ppm.

>which yields 22 ppm, which is the required atomic He concentration.  My
>figure, 0.83 ppm, is the weight concentration.

Thanks for clearing that up. 

For weight concentration I get:

(5E16 x 4.0026 amu)/(10 gm x 0.004) = 8.3 ppm.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 02:35:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Cherry tree
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	Dear Vo.,


	I seem to have lost ALL of my copies of Cherry Tree stories... 

	SO:  f you remember them, and have one or more, please send to
me.. off line.

			Thanks,

				John

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 14 23:48:15 1999
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Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 22:50:24 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Reactance
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At 8:26 AM 6/11/99, Scott Little wrote:
>At 21:45 6/10/99 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>capacitance of the plates.  Another way migth be to track RMS voltage and
>>RMS current vs the true integrated power, thus permitting you to calculate
>>the power factor directly, and thus the capacitance.
>
>....er....this is a DC experiment!  Except for minor failings in the power
>supply's regulation, the voltage across the cell is constant.


Yes, I forgot the fact your are using a regulated supply, and that I used
single wave or full wave DC or AC in my experiments.   Also, the capacitive
effect was very prononced in my experiments, so the films formed must have
been fairly thick, thick enough to eliminate most tunneling and resistance,
yet thin enough to have a significant capacitance.  However, your voltage
is only fixed right at the power supply.  It must be oscillating at the
cathodes, since the current fluctuates, but difficult to measure there,
even using a 4 wire system.  Using a bypass capacitor, however, it should
be possible to determine the added capacity in the oscillating portion of
the circuit due to films on the electrodes.

A plate model might look something like this:


       -----C1------
       |           |
       |----R1-----|
---L1--|           |----------
       |---> G1 <--|
       |           |
       -----D1------

    L1 - inductance
    R1 - resistance
    G1 - spark gap
    D1 - tunnel diode

A cell model might look something like two plate models in series with an
LC and R grid network in between representing the electrolyte, with low
values, but complex, and this network would be even more complex with the
plasma in there too, and dependent on changes in dischrge type.

If the film thickens, then R1 goes to infinity, and C1 diminishes, G1
effectively widens, and D1 eventually disappears.  However, tunnel diodes,
as well as arcs, are known for their ability to operate in a negative
resistance mode in some voltage range, which in itself tends to create an
oscillator.  You already know your cell does have a negative resistance
regime, so it is probably a natural born oscillator.  Note also that there
is a potential for oscillations contained wholly between the plates.

I think the discussion in this post points out the academic value of, in
addition to ordinary studies, the study of a highly elongated cell.  By
greatly elongating the electrolyte section, calorimetry can be done on the
anode and cathode sections separately.  The principle change is the added
voltage required to overcome the added resistance drop in the electrolyte.
The plate phsics and chemistry should be nearly the same as in the short
cell, however. The interesting capability added by this method is the
abiltiy to see where the energy is actually being generated, and consumed.
It is also possible, by wrapping coils around the long electrolyte section,
or even coiling the electrolyte about a core, use of Hall effect devices
and other instrumentation, to measure current, voltage, and transients in
the electrolyte itself.  This approach may yield some surprises.


>Because of
>the spikey nature of the current the RMS current is always higher than the
>average current.  The latter, when multiplied by the voltage, yields the
>average true power.  Yes, you could divide true power by the V*Irms product
>and obtain something like a power factor but taking the arccos of it would
>yield a meaningless angle, I think.  I don't see how to extract a
>capacitance from these data.


Yes that is messy, but the calculated value, though not proportional to
capacitance, should be an *indicator* of capacitance.  Changes in value
should indicate changes in capacitance.

Also, looking at the plate model, if we ignore the plate inductance, the
sparks, and the tunnel diode effect, and assming R1 is constant or
increasing, then the RMS current will increase, depending on the reactance
of the capacitor Xc = 1/ (2*Pi*f*C1).  So, if you know the frequency of the
current oscillation, you can still come up with a rough estimate for the
capacitance C1, if C1 is large enough and R1 high enough.

It is only a rough estimate, but at least something might be done:

Calculate total reactance Xtot:

   Xtot = V/Irms

Calculate current through R1:

   Ir1 = V/R1

Calculate AC current:

   Iac = Irms - Ir1

Calculate Xc1, reactance of capacitor in parallel to R1:

   Xc1 = 1/(1/Xtot - 1/R1)

Calculate C1 using estimate of the frequency f:

   C1 = 1/(2*Pi*f*Xc1)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: PLEC: Cell Reactance
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Correction to approximation calcs provided earlier follows.

If we have a rough estimate Iac of the AC portion of the current, and f the
frequency of this AC portion:

Calculate total reactance Xtot:

   Xtot = V/Irms

Calculate DC current:

   Ir1 = Irms - Iac

Calculate R1:

   R1 = V/Ir1

Calculate Xc1, reactance of capacitor in parallel to R1:

   Xc1 = 1/(1/Xtot - 1/R1)

Calculate C1 using estimate of the frequency f:

   C1 = 1/(2*Pi*f*Xc1)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 15 04:13:15 1999
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Subject: Fire from Glass?
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Interesting note that a contact sent me. Report source unknown, but 
refers to June 21, 1999 Applied Physics Letters.

Gene Mallove
******

<< BERKELEY, CA -- Many materials can heat up somewhat when they are
 bent or broken, but few throw off showers of sparks as hot as
 those emitted when a new kind of metallic glass is shattered. For
 the first time, a team of researchers at the Department of
 Energy's Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory has measured the
 extremely high temperature of particles ejected when this unusual
 amorphous metal is fractured.
 
 The alloy of zirconium, beryllium, titanium, copper, and nickel
 is one of the first metallic glasses that can be made in bulk and
 formed into strong, hard, useful objects. It was discovered by
 William L. Johnson and Atakan Peker of the California Institute
 of Technology.
 
 Working with the discoverers to investigate the mechanical
 properties of the novel material, which as yet are poorly
 understood, a team of researchers in Berkeley Lab's Materials
 Sciences Division led by Robert Ritchie mounted notched specimens
 of the zirconium-based metallic glass in a pendulum impact
 device. They were startled to find that, when fractured in air,
 the alloy shot out showers of bright, hot sparks.
 
 "We were measuring how much energy it took to fracture the
 material when we stumbled onto the light emission," says
 Christopher Gilbert, a postdoctoral fellow in Ritchie's group.
 "As it  turned out, scientists at Oak Ridge had seen this last
 year -- but we've managed to measure the associated temperatures
 and to explain the mechanism for the first time."
 
 In air, when struck by the pendulum weight, the notched specimens
 snapped and sent out bright sparks whose color corresponded to a
 blackbody temperature of 3,175 degrees Kelvin. The same
 experiment in a nitrogen atmosphere produced no visible sparks,
 but emission was detected in the infrared at 1,400 K.
 
 "So-called fracto-emission is familiar in brittle insulating
 solids and somewhat less familiar in ordinary metals," says
 Gilbert, "but emissions of this intensity are unprecedented in
 ductile polycrystalline metals. And so far as we know,
 fracto-emission has never been quantified in amorphous metals."
 
 Digital camera images, plus the experiments in pure nitrogen,
 showed that the sparks in air were caused by burning particles
 thrown off from the fracture surface. When the broken specimens
 were examined under a scanning electron microscope, blobs of
 melted material were seen on the fracture surface. The heat
 generated in breaking the metallic glass was enough, apparently,
 to ignite freshly exposed metal particles.
 
 "Zirconium and titanium will burn in air, if you get them hot
 enough," says Ritchie, "but the real question is the temperature
 we observe in nitrogen --1,400 K in the absence of intense
 oxidation and pyrophoric activity."
 
 Gilbert says, "When the metallic glass is broken, the deformation
 is highly localized in narrow bands, which generates intense heat
 from plastic work" -- rather the way a wire gets hot if bent back
 and forth rapidly. Melting observed on the fracture surfaces
 means local temperatures must have exceeded 935 K, the
 temperature at which the metallic glass liquefies.
 
 Team member Joel Ager surmises that the temperature rises rapidly
 as the material is deformed "partly because metallic glass has
 terrible conductivity for a  metal. It can't get rid of the heat.
 But this can't be the whole story."
 
 Unlike pure metals and most metal alloys,  metallic  glasses
 have  no  regular crystalline  structure.  This  lack  of  long
 range  order   or  microstructure  is  related  to  such
 desirable features as strength and low damping?the ability of
 some of  these alloys to deliver a really big bounce?which is one
 reason why the premier use for zirconium-based metallic glass is
 in the manufacture of expensive golf club heads.
 
 Only recently has it been possible to obtain metallic glass in
 enough bulk to make a golf club head or to perform extensive
 mechanical testing. In the past, to prevent segregation and
 crystallization of the melt required such rapid cooling -- in
 only about a thousandth of a second, at a rate of about a million
 degrees Celsius per second -- that only very thin wires and
 ribbons could be formed.
 
 Zirconium-based metallic glasses can be cast in bulk because they
 can be cooled much more slowly, at about 10 degrees C per second;
 they achieve their glassy, disordered state by alloying metals
 with dramatically different atomic sizes and chemical
 characteristics. The alloy studied by Ritchie's group, for
 example, is two-fifths zirconium and one-fifth beryllium.
 
 William Johnson of Caltech and his colleagues at Amorphous
 Technologies International of Laguna Niguel, California pioneered
 the development of these alloys and their commercial uses. Golf
 clubs made of zirconium-based metallic glass have unusual
 springiness, a "soft" feel, and an almost ideal density between
 that of stainless steel and titanium (currently the connoisseur's
 choice); they also demonstrate, however, that even slow-cooling
 metallic glass doesn't cool slowly enough for really large
 castings. For the time being, at least one of the dimensions must
 be under four inches.
 
 Nevertheless, the properties of bulk metallic glasses -- their
 high strength-to-weight ratios, high hardness, excellent wear
 properties, good forming and shaping qualities, and their unusual
 magnetic and electrical properties as well -- hold promise for
 many important applications. Ritchie's group is pursuing a wide
 range of measurements, including electrochemical studies by team
 member and graduate student Valeska Schroeder.
 
 "We're interested in determining which properties of these new
 materials can be attributed to their individual constituents and
 which to the amorphous nature of metallic glass," says Ritchie.
 "Valeska has already shown that the notion that metal corrosion
 in  the zirconium-based glass would be alleviated because of its
 amorphous nature is simply not true. The crystalline and glassy
 microstructures show very similar pitting potentials, in a
 variety of chemical solutions."
 
 As for unexpected light emissions from the zirconium-beryllium
 alloy, Ritchie says, "These extremely high temperatures aren't
 Polywater, not a delusion -- they're real. And they demand
 explanation."
 
 The researchers report their unusual findings in the June 21,
 1999, issue of Applied Physics Letters. >>

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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Murray: Case cell He artifact  6.14.99
In-Reply-To: <3768e4c7.425929495 mail-hub>
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At 05:49 6/15/99 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>10 gm x 0.4% (not 4%?) = 0.04 gm / 106.4 gm/mole = 2.264E20.

Bingo!  Thanks, Robin.

>(5E16 x 4.0026 amu)/(10 gm x 0.004) = 8.3 ppm.

That's right.  Sounds kinda high for He contamination in metals...doesn't it?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 15 06:20:24 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Bitter coils vs other ideas
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While using an efficient electric generator to drive a Brown's gas
generator is a very good idea, especially from the standpoint of closing
the energy loop, Bitter coils are not designed for anything like this
purpose.  They are designed for magawatt power ranges and for supporting
huge field densities.

I think something more akin to a magneto is a good idea, because it will
generate a pulsed output.  The output should likely be put through a
transformer to step it down.  The generator would consist of a simple wire
wound C core with a strong permanent magnet that rotates (flies) through
the C gap.

A much better mechanism is a fully capacitive motor-generator, because the
voltage generated will exactly match the requirements to its constant
current output, and it can be made to be very efficient.  It can also be
tuned to the cell resonance in a manner that improves the generator
performance.  Further, rotating the high voltage plates through the
interior of the cell, protected and isolated from the cell by insulating
material, also opens the door to hybrid plateless designs.  Use of high
RPM, and many generator plates per armature permits generating at fairly
high frequency.  For example, to operate at 16 kHz requires 100 plates at
9600 RPM, or 30 plates at 32,000 RPM.  The majority of energy loss is in
maintaining the generator HV plate charge, which can possibly be made very
efficient, especially if the generator armature operates in a vacuum.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 15 06:24:18 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Murray: Case cell He artifact  6.14.99
Resent-Message-ID: <"zldSw.0.4q4.DEbPt" mx1>
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>At 05:49 6/15/99 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>>10 gm x 0.4% (not 4%?) = 0.04 gm / 106.4 gm/mole = 2.264E20.
>
>Bingo!  Thanks, Robin.
>
>>(5E16 x 4.0026 amu)/(10 gm x 0.004) = 8.3 ppm.
>
>That's right.  Sounds kinda high for He contamination in metals...doesn't it?


The ppm would be a lot less if the metal were the stainless steel vessel
walls.  High nickel content?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 15 08:04:03 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Quotes from Townes book
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 15 08:29:09 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: David Jonsson <David Bahnhof.se>
Subject: Re: Is the ion drive EHD/ARDA?
In-Reply-To: <199906110305.WAA20242 mirage.skypoint.com>
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At 22:05 1999-06-10 -0500, you wrote:
>David wrote:
>
>> What is Col. Philip Corso talking about in his book "The Day after
Roswell"?
>
>He was talking about stuff he made up to generate some income from
>a fantasy book.

He died shortly after so it could not be for his own sake.

>> He says that the ion drive was invented as a result of reverse-engineering
>> of alien technology.
>
>He said that about every modern invention (since 1947.)   Not only did
>practically every technical invention since 1947 originate from analysis
>of a crashed saucer, but he personally was the one who was supposedly
>instructed by his (military/government) boss to meet with technical
>companies and hand out all these amazing discoveries.

What about other stories regarding extraterreestrial origin for the
electron? You have the story on the web, which Corso refers to and you have
preston Nichols/Peter Moon stories.

>I will now await to be stoned for my scepticism of Corso.

You still avoid what an ion drive is. What is an ion drive? Is it the same
drive found on the B-2?

I also wonder about his claim regarding depleted uranium on artillery
shells. Is this true and what is the reason for it? I believe it is to
reduce air drag and thus reach longer.

David

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 15 08:42:01 1999
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: Quotes from Townes book

This is damn interesting stuff, Jed!     :-)

Regards,     Frederick


> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 15 08:56:17 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Case cell He artifact  6.14.99
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 11:55:04 -0400
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Vo,

The abstract of a study published in Physical Review B cited in the Arata &
Zhang paper, *Helium release from aged palladium tritride* (Abell et al.),
1/15/90, is quoted:

"Experimental studies of helium release from aged PdTx show that the
helium-to-metal-atom ratio saturates at a value of [He]/[Pd] = ~0.5 under
conditions of ambient-temperature storage.  Below this value, very little
helium release occurs.  Thermal desorption experiments show that release
from a sample with [He]/[Pd] = ~0.3 requires temperatures in excess of ~
600K, wh ile release from a sample iwth [He]/[Pd] = ~0.02 requires
temperatures in excess of at least 1300K.  These results are related to the
question of the disposition of helium that would be produced by hypotherical
fusion reactions in a PdDx electrode."

The paper proceeds to explain that of the great deal of work done in
studying isotopes of He in metals, it is "extremely insoluble in metals,"
(including stainless steel) so the idea of contamination via Pd is invalid
for the following reasons.  First, for the He to be driven out by the low
temperatures employed in Case cell work, [He]/[Pd] would have to reach
nearly 0.5, which cannot occur unless Rich Murray wishes to consider ion
implantation as the means to this contamination. Helium implantation or
nuclear transmutation of tritium to helium are the methods used to study
high [He]/[Pd].

Because it is reasonable to surmise that McKubre is not implanting helium
into his catalyst, or loading it with tritium gas and waiting 12 years, we
can dispense with Murray's poorly based criticism.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 15 09:31:49 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
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Hi Gene,

Thanks for the report on the metal-glasses.  These fracto-emissions are
similar, I think, to the luminescence reports of snapping in half certain
lifesaver candies or the light emitted from quickly unrolling scotch tape.
Bill Beaty's site has some articles about that.  I think that there is the
ability of these nanoparticle metals to absorb various high frequency
wavelengths, and capacitate them into the dielectric to some degree.  On the
fringier (sp) side, I've been looking at some of these Orgone Accumulator
designs, and these small particle metals could be an enhancement to some of
those devices.  Another idea might be to cast them under extremely high
pressure to see if there are any peculiar psuedo-molecules formed like
clathrates.  I am glad to see them making such good use of this technology
(golf clubs:)

Knuke



Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 15 09:35:58 1999
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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
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Subject: Re: Is the ion drive EHD/ARDA?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990615172638.00a33270 mail.bahnhof.se> from David Jonsson at "Jun 15, 99 05:26:38 pm"
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> >David wrote:
> >
> >> What is Col. Philip Corso talking about in his book "The Day after
> Roswell"?
> >
> >He was talking about stuff he made up to generate some income from
> >a fantasy book.
> 
> He died shortly after so it could not be for his own sake.

He died of a heart attack nearly a year and a half after the book was
published, and who knows how long after it was first written.

> You still avoid what an ion drive is. What is an ion drive? Is it the same
> drive found on the B-2?

I don't know what specific ion drive anyone might be using, in the B-2
or elsewhere.

> I also wonder about his claim regarding depleted uranium on artillery
> shells. Is this true and what is the reason for it? I believe it is to
> reduce air drag and thus reach longer.

It is well known that they use uranium for artillery shells (it is
depleted of specific isotopes, which have been removed for their
nuclear uses.)  Uranium is dense and hard.  More mass in a smaller
package would indeed reduce air drag over a similar less dense but
equal mass of metal, such as iron.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 15 09:43:55 1999
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From: David Jonsson <David Bahnhof.se>
Subject: Depleted uranium
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What is the military usage of depleted uranium?

I know it is a high capacity dielectric and my assumption is that it is
used for lowering air-drag and to reduce radar profile. It mnight also have
a role in electrogravitics.

David

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 15 10:36:21 1999
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From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Depleted uranium
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----------
> From: David Jonsson <David Bahnhof.se>
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Depleted uranium
> Date: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 11:43 AM
> 
> What is the military usage of depleted uranium?

Armor piercing bullets. The A-10 Thunderbolt uses big spent uranium shells
in its GAU Avenger gatling gun to pierce armor. It can tear a main battle
tank apart easily.

Kyle R. Mcallister

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 15 10:51:39 1999
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David Jonsson wrote:

> What is the military usage of depleted uranium?
>
> I know it is a high capacity dielectric and my assumption is that it is
> used for lowering air-drag and to reduce radar profile. It mnight also have
> a role in electrogravitics.

At almost 19,000 kg. per cubic meter, U is nearly twice as dense as lead (11k
+). It is ductile, i.e. not particularly hard, until alloyed and believe it or
not, not fully depleted of U235 - still about as radioactive as thorium - and
furthermore is extraordinarily toxic when micro-pulverized and inhaled. Which is
exactly what can happen in its intended use - ask our Gulf War veterans . U
"cermets" are very hard and can be even denser than the base metal. So used,
they pieces armor like a hot knife through butter, leaving an explosive fog of
radioactive dust in the tank. A secondary explosion and quick death is a
blessing to the crew.

But all of that pales in comparison to the cost, er... lack thereof. There are
actually several better armor piercing materials - but you see, to our
government (DoE), processed U is not just a "sunk cost" but a huge liability.
So, putting it into anything useful is basically a low cost, even "negative
cost" option.

Damn the foot soldiers, full speed ahead.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 15 11:29:15 1999
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At 2:48 AM 6/15/99, Jones Beene wrote:
[snip]
>But all of that pales in comparison to the cost, er... lack thereof. There are
>actually several better armor piercing materials ...
[snip]

Unfortunately, except for tungsten, they are all precious metals (elements
75-79.)   The lone ranger used silver bullets, but he would have had much
better results with gold.  If NASA could mine a high iridium content
asteroid cheaply enough, or LENR could be made cost effective, iridium
would fill the bill nicely.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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	Dear vo.,

	There is nothing mysterious about ion drive.  No ion drivesare
used commercially or in military applications in the air.  There is some
limited use in outer space.

	Basically it is a weak drive.  A source of ions comes from some
reservoir of matter, ie., mercury, cesium, water, hydrogen ....
	The material is made ito a vapor, usually by heating.  The vapor
is exposed to moderate high voltage and ions are formed.
	The ions are accelerated by a field, not unlike electrons being
accelerated in a cathode ray tube by the electron gun.
	Out come the ions at high velocity.  When the reservoir of matter
is empty then the "gas tank is dry" ... and "you go no mo' go"

	Some of the oddball miraculous uses and properties ascribed to ion
drive by New Age Quack Gadgeteers are ... embarrassing .... at best....
and mostly just plain stupid.

	It is VERY easy to go to the library to some reference such as the
McGraw-Hill encyclopedia of Science ... and look something like this up
... fully 90% of the questions asked in forum on Vo can be answered in
this matter, if not directly then by bibliography supplied by the
reference.

	Read.  Use libraries.  Amazing places.

					JHS

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June 15, 1999  Hello,  My "poorly based criticism" airs some
possibilities not discussed by Ed Wall: I've pointed out that days and
weeks of exposure to ~3.4 atm D2 at 200-210 deg C will load a thin
(how thin?) Pd film with D to a significant degree, leading to some
amount (how much?) of phase change, expansion, and cracking, thus
allowing much or most of any absorbed He to be released.  The mass
match of D (amu = 2) is close enough to that of He (amu = 4) to
facilitate momentum exchange, i.e. the build up of D at 210 deg C would
knock out the atoms of He.  So there is more to be considered than
simple thermal effects.

Skeptics will naturally dismiss the results, unless these artifacts
are addressed in detail.  That is inevitable, so my goal is to speed
the process by catalyzing a thorough discussion by those more competent
by far than me.

Horace Heffner has pointed out that the Ni (presumably in small crystal
domains in the stainless steel walls) could also be a significant He
sink, to be released as the Ni loads with D.  How rough are the
SS walls on the microlevel?  What is its surface layer He content?
How far deep into the SS walls would a deuterium-catalyzed He
impurity release process work?

Could the repeated cycles of filling the cell with H2 and then D2 lead
to impurity He being concentrated from the H2 and D2 into the Pd film
and the SS walls?  How porous are the walls?

As the discussion matures, I will summarize it for my long lists of
those interested in CF.

Robin van Spaandonk and Scott Little have given the number of
atoms of Pd in the film: 
The produced He is reported as 5E16 atoms.

10 gm x 0.4% = 0.04 gm Pd/ 106.4 gm/mole => 2.264E20 atoms Pd.

(5E16 atoms He x 4.0026 amu)/(10 gm x 0.004) =>
8.3 ppm He in Pd by weight,  221 ppm by number of atoms.

Little: "That's right.  Sounds kinda high for He contamination in
metals...doesn't it?"

Ed Wall wrote:
> 
> Vo,
> 
> The abstract of a study published in Physical Review B cited in the
> Arata & Zhang paper, *Helium release from aged palladium tritride*
> (Abell et al.), 1/15/90, is quoted:
> 
> "Experimental studies of helium release from aged PdTx show that the
> helium-to-metal-atom ratio saturates at a value of [He]/[Pd] = ~0.5
> under conditions of ambient-temperature storage.  Below this value,
> very little helium release occurs.  Thermal desorption experiments
> show that release from a sample with [He]/[Pd] = ~0.3 requires
> temperatures in excess of ~600K, wh ile release from a sample with
> [He]/[Pd] = ~0.02 requires temperatures in excess of at least 1300K.
> These results are related to the question of the disposition of helium
> that would be produced by hypotherical fusion reactions in a PdDx
>  electrode."
> 
> The paper proceeds to explain that of the great deal of work done in
> studying isotopes of He in metals, it is "extremely insoluble in 
> metals," (including stainless steel) so the idea of contamination via
> Pd is invalid for the following reasons.  First, for the He to be
> driven out by the low temperatures employed in Case cell work,
> [He]/[Pd] would have to reach nearly 0.5, which cannot occur unless
> Rich Murray wishes to consider ion implantation as the means to this
> contamination. Helium implantation or nuclear transmutation of tritium
> to helium are the methods used to study high [He]/[Pd].
> 
> Because it is reasonable to surmise that McKubre is not implanting
> helium into his catalyst, or loading it with tritium gas and waiting
> 12 years, we can dispense with Murray's poorly based criticism.
> 
> Ed Wall
> 
> New Energy Research Laboratory
> http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
> Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
> (603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

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Well, let me toss out some more ideas for my next general article in I.E.,
after I do this paper on Mizuno.

Horace Heffner writes:

	US Patent law has changed considerable since 1950, as has the
	freedom afforded by tenure.

Townes discusses the new patent laws and chapter 7, "The Patent Game." He
also thinks patents in general are absurd. "The patent process makes little
sense in terms of scientific innovation: it is not one in which to be
involved if you really enjoy science and not legal wrangling and gambling."
(P. 126) He seems to approve of the new 20 year limit, which forces quick
commercialization. (Previously, a patent expired 17 years after it was
awarded; now it expires 20 years after application.) Inventors do not like
that change, but too bad for them. It is good for society.

I do not know what it was like being a professor in 1950, but my impression
from this book and other sources is that people with tenure came under a
lot of pressure to conform. It was a conformist era, much like the 1990s.
(I was going to say it was "much like our own era" but I disavow this era.
I am in it, but not of it.)


	In many countries anything disclosed prior to filing is public
	domain . . .

That is a problem. Still, people could file for patents first and then
demonstrate the devices before the patents are granted. In the 1950s you
had a one-year grace period. Townes publicly disclosed the maser in 1954
and then he had to scramble to file a patent within one year.


	The more fundamental and endemic problems are excruciating
	levels of government, social, and academic control, even for the
	tenured, lack of emphasis on small science, and a patent system
	skewed in value toward big business . . .

I do not think it was better in the past. In the 19th century we suffered
from excruciating social and economic control by plutocrats, elites, stock
market manipulators, crime syndicates, and corrupt municipal governments
like Tammany Hall, although not by the federal government. In the 1950s,
national and local governments exercised brutal control by terrorizing
people with the red scare, the McCarthy hearings, and officially condoned
murder & mayhem in the deep South. Laws have always been skewed toward big
business. Perhaps the patent laws have gotten worse lately . . . I wouldn't
know.

I quoted McKubre's ICCF7 closing remarks, when he said cold fusion is
"constipated" by the lack of information exchange. Mitchell Swartz responds:

	Nonsense.  There is considerable sharing, although given the
	patent issues, there is reasonable withholding of some info.

McKubre, Fleischmann and I disagree. I do not know what they think of the
patent issues, but I believe the only way to overcome Patent Office
obstruction is by doing public demonstrations and selling CF machines. That
is also the only way to make a profit. In any case, patents have little
value in the real world. As I have often pointed out, they are not usually
allowed in software, but that never stopped Bill Gates from making money. I
should point out that patents have recently been granted for some programs,
including Dragon NaturallySpeaking. This is the result of a court case many
years ago.


	Who lost their tenure and reputation with the laser?

How would we know? The names would be lost to history. All we can say is
that the laser might have been developed 30 years earlier than it was,
according to Townes, and that when he proposed the idea many influential
scientists vociferously opposed him. For all we can tell, fifty other
scientists before him might have thought about making one, but after
considering the inevitable opposition, they decided they would do something
conventional instead. Academic battles in the past were as nasty as they
are today. The problem is not that there is a fight. There are always
fights. The problem is that the CF scientists don't have the guts to win.
They are namby-pambies like Darwin. They must learn to act like T. H.
Huxley instead.


	The hurdles for laser phenomena were minuscule compare to that
	which CF has had to climb.

Yes, but most of the hurdles CF has climbed were raised by the CF
scientists themselves. Time after time CF scientists, including Swartz,
have passed up opportunities to convince the public and investors. It is no
wonder no one believes them! I would not believe them myself if I had not
examined the experiments carefully. If the CF scientists would only do what
Townes did, the opposition would melt away. They should learn from
entrepreneurs, especially the organizers and marketing geniuses like
Theodore Judah, Huntington, Stanford and Hopkins, who built the
transcontinental railroad, or Cyrus Field, Ford, the Wrights, Sarnoff and
Gates. Judah and Field conquered the High Sierras and the Atlantic Ocean,
not to mention world-wide ridicule, zero investment capital, and powerful
opposition from established business interests. They risked their lives,
every penny of their money, and their professional reputations. Only two CF
scientists have made similar sacrifices: Stanley Pons and Andrew Riley.
Chris Tinsley lived in dire poverty and worked on CF when he might have
found a job instead. Miles, Storms and Mallove have made real sacrifices,
and Mizuno has spent enough money to put a kid through an Ivy League
College. The others are bunch of crybabies and wusses compared to the likes
of Judah and Field. They do not even know what sacrifice means. They do not
realize how hard people in the past had to fight for their ideas.

I personally have made no sacrifices to do CF. It has been a pleasure and a
barrel of monkeys, and I would not do it again for all the money in the
world. I imagine Leland Stanford felt the same way, and Judah would have if
he had lived to see his work completed.

When CF research began in the 1920s, there was no opposition, and there is
no intrinsic reason why there should be sharp hostility today. We should be
seeing nothing worse than the normal jealousy and fear that new ideas
always engender. I do not buy the idea that oil companies, the DoE, or
other vested interests are fighting CF. A breakthrough in wind power or
solar cells could profoundly disrupt the energy market. It would not put
the oil companies out of business, but it could hurt them on the same scale
foreign car imports disrupted U.S. auto manufacturing in the 1970s, or on
the same scale microcomputers hurt mainframe computers. Despite this
danger, you never see the oil companies, the DoE, or hot fusion scientists
attacking solar power.

It should be understood that "normal" opposition to new ideas varies from
place to place. Opposition is often caused by extraneous cultural factors
or accidents of history. Hormonal oral contraception was proposed in the
late 19th century. By the 1920s the principles were well understood, but
research did not begin until the 1950s, and there is no telling how much
longer it would have been delayed were it not for the indomitable Margaret
Sanger. The pill was developed in 1956 and approved for use by the FDA in
1960. Other countries followed slowly. The Japanese government finally
legalized oral contraceptives this month, 35 years after other industrial
democracies. Emotional reactions to birth control are understandable, but
in other cases opposition seems to be baseless, or downright loony. Most
Europeans accepted pasteurization soon after 1860, but the dairy interests
prevented effective pasteurization of milk in New York City until World War
I, because they did not want to spend an extra penny per bottle for the
fuel and equipment to warm the milk. It never occurred to them that killing
off thousands of infants per year reduced customer confidence and hurt
their sales. In 1965, the automobile companies should have embraced Ralph
Nader and enthusiastically installed seat belts and other safety features,
saving the lives of 10,000 to 20,000 customers a year, but they fought him
instead. Nowadays they advertise safety features. In the 1950s, some U.S.
right-wing groups confused the International Communist Conspiracy with
public health measures to fluoridate water. To this day, some extremists
oppose fluoridation. I believe similar historical accidents have compounded
the opposition to cold fusion. It is up to cold fusion scientists to
eliminate loony hysteria at the APS, just as dentists must assure the
public that fluoridation does not lead to mind control from Moscow.

- Jed

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At 05:11 PM 6/15/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Well, let me toss out some more ideas for my next general article in I.E.,
>after I do this paper on Mizuno.
>
>Horace Heffner writes:
>
>	US Patent law has changed considerable since 1950, as has the
>	freedom afforded by tenure.

Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Townes discusses the new patent laws and chapter 7, "The Patent Game." He
>also thinks patents in general are absurd. "The patent process makes little
>sense in terms of scientific innovation: it is not one in which to be
>involved if you really enjoy science and not legal wrangling and gambling."
>(P. 126) He seems to approve of the new 20 year limit, which forces quick
>commercialization. (Previously, a patent expired 17 years after it was
>awarded; now it expires 20 years after application.) Inventors do not like
>that change, but too bad for them. It is good for society.


  Wrong.  The US Constitution protects citizens' inventions, and gave
Congress the ability to create the Patent Office. 

 In contrast, the new system gives the invention to the first to apply
and not the inventor.  A corrupt lawyer could file and be legally
the owner of the patent.  This is NOT good for society.  
Individuals are entitled to the fruits of their creativity.

  ---------------------------------------------

>	Who lost their tenure and reputation with the laser?

Jed Rothwell wrote:
>How would we know? The names would be lost to history. All we can say is
>that the laser might have been developed 30 years earlier than it was,
>according to Townes, and that when he proposed the idea many influential
>scientists vociferously opposed him. For all we can tell, fifty other
>scientists before him might have thought about making one, but after
>considering the inevitable opposition, they decided they would do something
>conventional instead. Academic battles in the past were as nasty as they
>are today. 

  Then there is no analogy between the two.
  Q.E.D.

  -----------------------------------------------

  Jed Rothwell wrote:
> The problem is not that there is a fight. There are always
>fights. The problem is that the CF scientists don't have the guts to win.
>They are namby-pambies like Darwin. They must learn to act like T. H.
>Huxley instead.

  IMO, they have more courage than you, Mr. Rothwell, having
put their reputations on the chopping block by submitting
papers for peer review in a field having all respect of
Rodney Dangerfield.

  Jed Rothwell corroborates this:
>I personally have made no sacrifices to do CF. It has been a pleasure and a
>barrel of monkeys, and I would not do it again for all the money in the
>world.

  Q.E.D.

     Mitchell Swartz


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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Subject: H2K:  Best Fill Pressure?
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Vince, 

In message Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 23:31:40 EDT, you wrote:

"Tests last August got the best temp per watt at a fill of ~530 torr and began
to fall off after that pressure. I would _love_ to operate at a higher fill. 
Much easier to control but I will explore everything from 10 torr and up. 
Mills 
says on his webpages it's best around 10 torr but who knows. So yes, I will
go and extend fill based on what I find. Nothing is cast in stone here, in
fact, it's a swamp!"

I think the reason that Mills runs his cells at low pressure is that the 
percentage of dissociated neutral H atoms, a species vital to the reaction, 
goes up as pressure goes down.

Why are higher pressures easier to control?

Tom Stolper

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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
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Ah hah,

The Jed & Mitchell show has moved to this new channel.

Let's join the show already in progress:

Jed>      Left
Mitchell> Right

Jed>      Right
Mitchell> Wrong

Jed>      Full
Mitchell> Empty

Jed>      I think that...
Mitchell> Your full of ^(*&)^(**&(%(*...

Jed>      Where's your proof?
Mitchell> Q.E.D.

Jed>      Don't send me any money ever. 
Mitchell> Send him all your money for the rest of your life.

Jed>      I agree with you. 
Mitchell> Huh, wait a minute?

Stay tuned!

And now a word from our sponsors.

Bill
webriggs concentric.net

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On Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:30:54 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
[snip]
>Unfortunately, except for tungsten, they are all precious metals (elements
>75-79.)   The lone ranger used silver bullets, but he would have had much
>better results with gold.  If NASA could mine a high iridium content
>asteroid cheaply enough, or LENR could be made cost effective, iridium
>would fill the bill nicely.
[snip]
I think that apart from the density, DU has another advantage. I seem to
recall that upon impact it tends to splinter to a sharp point rather
than flatten. 


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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Subject: RE: debate on Case cell He artifact  6.15.99
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Rich Murray adds to his poorly based criticism:

> June 15, 1999  Hello,  My "poorly based criticism" airs some
> possibilities not discussed by Ed Wall: I've pointed out that days and
> weeks of exposure to ~3.4 atm D2 at 200-210 deg C will load a thin
> (how thin?) Pd film with D to a significant degree, leading to some
> amount (how much?) of phase change, expansion, and cracking, thus
> allowing much or most of any absorbed He to be released.  The mass
> match of D (amu = 2) is close enough to that of He (amu = 4) to
> facilitate momentum exchange, i.e. the build up of D at 210 deg C would
> knock out the atoms of He.  So there is more to be considered than
> simple thermal effects.

H is mobile in palladium.  He is not.  Introducing cracks into Pd increases
the surface area available for the mobile H atom to escape from the lattice,
decreasing the loading.  If the atom is not moving, such cracks are not
likely to have that effect, unless they happen to disrupt the lattice where
the He is located.

If you were interested in gaining knowledge and furthering the
investigations, you would had read the article, and not raised another
spurious objection.  They used many samples.  Some samples were Pd powder
loaded with tritium under great pressure and exposed to temperature changes
much great than seen in Case experiments.  Quoting the part about the
analysis of the aged tritiated palladium:

"A portion of the material (~500 mg)was heated in a sigle step to 1273K and
held at that temperature until gas evolution was essentially complete. (Most
of the evolved gases in this experiment were observed to be released below ~
700K.)  Subsequent mass spectrometric analysis revealed that less than 1% of
the 3He born in the palladium had been released (this result is represented
by the filled triangle in Fig. 2).  The released gas was primarily
deuterium, consistent with an initial stoichiometry of [D]/[Pd] = ~ 0.60,
and a small amount of residual tritium [T]/[Pd]."

The tritium had been loaded in this "well-characterized, high-purity
palladium powder (10-20 um spherical particles) that had aged for ~ 200 days
with an initial stoichiometry of 0.63 (thus [He/[Pd] = 0.020), following
which the tritium was displace by flowing ~0.3 MPa D2 through the palladium
(heated to 350K) and a flow restrictor into a known volume."  This extreme
pressure, long hydrogen exposure duration and high temperature that the
palladium samples experience are far beyond Case cell conditions.  He
stoichiometry of 0.020 is 2 orders of magnitude greater concentration than
the 221 ppm calculated by Scott Little (that figure for required He
concentration in the palladium was calculated based on the amount of
catalyst and the 5E16 He molecules reported in the cell).  Yet, even under
these very much more extreme conditions and much higher concentration,
virtually none of the known helium is detected.

For your criticism to mean anything, you must provide evidence for two
miracles:  the extremely high loading of the Pd with He, and then the
extremely unlikely desorption of He at low temperature.  You provide
neither.

> Skeptics will naturally dismiss the results, unless these artifacts
> are addressed in detail.  That is inevitable, so my goal is to speed
> the process by catalyzing a thorough discussion by those more competent
> by far than me.

Those more competent to speak to these issues than either of us write
papers, like the one cited by Arata & Zhang, quoted by me (Abell et al.).
Have you read it, Rich?  I don't doubt, like the endless trivial pursuit
that you put Mike Carrell through in the interminable postings about Arata &
Zhang, you can dream up all kinds of things that can be seen as reasonable
objections by people whose knowledge is limited (which includes everyone on
the planet).  That is why rhetoric is such a powerful tool in debate and why
debate is such a waste of time.  The pursuit of knowledge about reality is
not the art of rhetoric.  Absolute knowledge about anything is not something
I have experienced.  There are premises to every kind of concept anyone has
ever had, which can be questioned and placed in contexts which raise all
sorts of doubts and fears in biased or inadequately trained minds.  If you
want such a debate, it will have to be with someone besides me.

I have no desire to attempt winning over skeptics who are pathological.  I
have much better things to do.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 15 16:48:40 1999
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"Richard T. Murray" wrote:

> June 15, 1999  Hello,  My "poorly based criticism" airs some
> possibilities not discussed by Ed Wall: I've pointed out that days and
> weeks of exposure to ~3.4 atm D2 at 200-210 deg C will load a thin
> (how thin?) Pd film with D to a significant degree, leading to some
> amount (how much?) of phase change, expansion, and cracking, thus
> allowing much or most of any absorbed He to be released.

At this temperature and pressure, the maximum composition is near PdH0.5
and this value will be achieved very quickly (minutes) when a fine powder
is used.  No cracking occurs at this composition.  Extensive studies of
He-3 release after tritium decay in palladium demonstrates that simple
loading at this temperature does not release contained helium. Spontaneous
release only occurs at high temperature or if the amount of contained
helium increase sufficiently to crack the material.

> The mass
> match of D (amu = 2) is close enough to that of He (amu = 4) to
> facilitate momentum exchange, i.e. the build up of D at 210 deg C would
> knock out the atoms of He.  So there is more to be considered than
> simple thermal effects.

It is easy to imagine all kinds of processes, but nature simply does not
behave this way. Gas loading, unlike electrolysis, quickly produces a fixed
and stable hydrogen concentration.  No hydrogen is moving out.
Consequently, even if a knockout process were possible, the hydrogen is not
moving, hence can not release He this way. Even if such a process actually
occurred, one would expect the He release rate to quickly die off with time
as He had to diffuse a longer distance.  This behavior is not seen.

>
> Skeptics will naturally dismiss the results, unless these artifacts
> are addressed in detail.  That is inevitable, so my goal is to speed
> the process by catalyzing a thorough discussion by those more competent
> by far than me.

A worthy approach, but it presumes that the rest of us have not given this
explanation any thought at all.  A person needs to spend time considering
processes that have some hope of being possible. Skeptics will propose any
explanation to avoid believing the obvious and no amount of proof showing
that the explanation is false will have any effect.  We can waste a lot of
time this way.

>
> Horace Heffner has pointed out that the Ni (presumably in small crystal
> domains in the stainless steel walls) could also be a significant He
> sink, to be released as the Ni loads with D.  How rough are the
> SS walls on the microlevel?  What is its surface layer He content?
> How far deep into the SS walls would a deuterium-catalyzed He
> impurity release process work?

If this were the source, the identical blank cell should show the effect.
Also, people who used apparatus constructed from stainless steel to study
helium release from Pd should see this effect.  They do not.

> Could the repeated cycles of filling the cell with H2 and then D2 lead
> to impurity He being concentrated from the H2 and D2 into the Pd film
> and the SS walls?  How porous are the walls?

The H2 and D2 gases do not contain helium which is easy to check using the
control cell.

If this were the only claim for helium production, it would still be
impressive.  However, at least five careful studies of helium production
under various conditions have been published.  All of the measurements give
consistent behavior and allow the same conclusion.  Helium is being
produced when deuterium is present in special palladium and the energy of
the reaction is near 26 MeV. Rejection of this conclusion would require a
whole set of prosaic explanations which happened to conspire to produce the
same result.  How much proof does one need???

Ed Storms


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 15 17:30:25 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: debate on Case cell He artifact  6.15.99
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At 5:45 PM 6/15/99, Edmund Storms wrote:
>"Richard T. Murray" wrote:
[snip]
>> Horace Heffner has pointed out that the Ni (presumably in small crystal
>> domains in the stainless steel walls) could also be a significant He
>> sink, to be released as the Ni loads with D.  How rough are the
>> SS walls on the microlevel?  What is its surface layer He content?
>> How far deep into the SS walls would a deuterium-catalyzed He
>> impurity release process work?
>
>If this were the source, the identical blank cell should show the effect.
>Also, people who used apparatus constructed from stainless steel to study
>helium release from Pd should see this effect.  They do not.


Yes, I certainly agree with this.  The He generation effect requires D2 gas
PLUS the right catalyst.  This does not sound like a plausible begining, to
look for a non-nuclear explanation relating to He absorbtion in the vessel
walls.  Still, an interaction with lots of nickel and/or iron in the vessel
walls, or at the catalyst/wall interface, seems more likely than in the
tiny abount of PD in the catalyst.  There apears to be no good non-nuclear
explanation unless there is a flaw in the He measurement itself.


[snip]
>How much proof does one need???
>
>Ed Storms

More independent replications.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 15 17:37:15 1999
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Message-ID: <004001beb790$50fa30e0$6259ccd1 default>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Depleted uranium
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:43:39 -0400
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David said:

>What is the military usage of depleted uranium?
>
>I know it is a high capacity dielectric and my assumption is that it is
>used for lowering air-drag and to reduce radar profile. It might also have
>a role in electrogravitics.


Uranium is metal. Metals are conductive. Dielectrics are not conductive.
Metals are not characterized by dielectric constant.
Uranium is dense and hard. Uranium which does not contain U-235 or Pu-239
because it has been in a nuclear reactor and chemically treated thereafter
is called depleted and is of no value to the nuclear industry. Because it is
dense and hard it is useful in armor-piercing shells and bullets and this is
its military use. It has nothing whatsoever to do with lowering air drag or
reducing the radar profile. These have to do with the shape of surfaces and
use of light weight radar absorbing materials such as carbon composites, not
heavy uranium. No role in electrogravitics.

Mike Carrell




>David
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 15 21:01:07 1999
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Subject: Murray: definitive defeat of Case cell helium artifact  6.15.99
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June 15, 1999  It is easy to prove that I am no "pathological skeptic",
by sending to all those on my CF lists this admission of the definitive
defeat of my Case cell helium artifact hypothesis, especially by the
totally relevant detailed experimental results given by Ed Wall.

I did study all the Arata & Zhang reports in great detail, as well as
the exhaustingly detailed debate for weeks between Mike Carrell and Kirk
Shanahan in fall, 1997, which I facilitated, but to which I made few
contributions.  This debate was not "an endless trivial pursuit."

Shannahan, a fully qualified expert, not at all a pathological
skeptic, was not convinced of the Arata results.
Arata's major papers were remarkably badly written, and full of typos.
Many important details, such as the calorimetry and the basic
calorimetry data, were never given.  Neither Arata, Zhang, nor any
of their associates contributed to this long-running, civil, fair
debate.  Mike Carrell wrote a summary of the Arata reports for
"Infinite Energy", which seemed to me to include nothing from the
objections raised by Shannahan or myself, although he mentioned that
we had conducted a debate.  However, Mike Carrell recently posted me
about confusing fluctuations in the input voltage, not clearly
reported by Arata.  Reports exist that several attempts at replication
failed in Japan.  So, I have judged that the Arata work is fatally
flawed, and am looking forward to the possiblily that McKubre and then
others will present oodles of details of numerous successes with it,
and the sooner, the better.

Subject: RE: debate on Case cell He artifact 6.15.99
  Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 16:14:02 -0700 (PDT)
 Resent-From:  vortex-l eskimo.com
        Date:  Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:12:26 -0400
        From:  "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
    Reply-To:  vortex-l eskimo.com
          To:  <vortex-l eskimo.com>

Rich Murray adds to his poorly based criticism:

> June 15, 1999  Hello,  My "poorly based criticism" airs some
> possibilities not discussed by Ed Wall: I've pointed out that days and
> weeks of exposure to ~3.4 atm D2 at 200-210 deg C will load a thin
> (how thin?) Pd film with D to a significant degree, leading to some
> amount (how much?) of phase change, expansion, and cracking, thus
> allowing much or most of any absorbed He to be released.  The mass
> match of D (amu = 2) is close enough to that of He (amu = 4) to
> facilitate momentum exchange, i.e. the build up of D at 210 deg C
> would knock out the atoms of He.  So there is more to be considered
> than simple thermal effects.

H is mobile in palladium.  He is not.  Introducing cracks into Pd
increases the surface area available for the mobile H atom to escape
from the lattice, decreasing the loading.  If the atom is not moving,
such cracks are not likely to have that effect, unless they happen to
disrupt the lattice where the He is located.

If you were interested in gaining knowledge and furthering the
investigations, you would had read the article, and not raised another
spurious objection.  They used many samples.  Some samples were Pd
powder loaded with tritium under great pressure and exposed to
temperature changes much greater than seen in Case experiments.
Quoting the part about the analysis of the aged tritiated palladium:

"A portion of the material (~500 mg)was heated in a sigle step to 1273K
and held at that temperature until gas evolution was essentially
complete. (Most of the evolved gases in this experiment were observed
to be released below ~700K.)  Subsequent mass spectrometric analysis
revealed that less than 1% of the 3He born in the palladium had been
released (this result is represented by the filled triangle in Fig. 2).
The released gas was primarily deuterium, consistent with an initial
stoichiometry of [D]/[Pd] = ~ 0.60, and a small amount of residual
tritium [T]/[Pd]."

The tritium had been loaded in this "well-characterized, high-purity
palladium powder (10-20 um spherical particles) that had aged for
~ 200 days with an initial stoichiometry of 0.63 (thus [He/[Pd]
= 0.020), following which the tritium was displaced by flowing
~0.3 MPa D2 through the palladium (heated to 350K) and a flow
restrictor into a known volume."  This extreme pressure, long hydrogen
exposure duration and high temperature that the palladium samples
experience are far beyond Case cell conditions.  He stoichiometry of
0.020 is 2 orders of magnitude greater concentration than the 221 ppm
calculated by Scott Little (that figure for required He concentration
in the palladium was calculated based on the amount of catalyst and
the 5E16 He molecules reported in the cell).  Yet, even under these
very much more extreme conditions and much higher concentration,
virtually none of the known helium is detected.

For your criticism to mean anything, you must provide evidence for two
miracles:  the extremely high loading of the Pd with He, and then the
extremely unlikely desorption of He at low temperature.  You provide
neither.

> Skeptics will naturally dismiss the results, unless these artifacts
> are addressed in detail.  That is inevitable, so my goal is to speed
> the process by catalyzing a thorough discussion by those more
> competent by far than me.

Those more competent to speak to these issues than either of us write
papers, like the one cited by Arata & Zhang, quoted by me
(Abell et al.). Have you read it, Rich?  I don't doubt, like the endless
trivial pursuit that you put Mike Carrell through in the interminable
postings about Arata & Zhang, you can dream up all kinds of things that
can be seen as reasonable objections by people whose knowledge is
limited (which includes everyone on the planet).  That is why rhetoric
is such a powerful tool in debate and why debate is such a waste of
time.  The pursuit of knowledge about reality is not the art of
rhetoric.  Absolute knowledge about anything is not something I have
experienced.  There are premises to every kind of concept anyone has
ever had, which can be questioned and placed in contexts which raise
all sorts of doubts and fears in biased or inadequately trained minds.
If you want such a debate, it will have to be with someone besides me.

I have no desire to attempt winning over skeptics who are pathological.
I have much better things to do.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

Subject: Re: SFE report
   Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 07:52:49 -0400
   From: Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
     To: "Rich Murray" <rmforall earthlink.net>

Rich,

I'm very pleased with your report of the SFE meeting. Some years ago you
said you were looking for convincing evidence of CF and LENR phenomena,
but did not see data from straightforward experiments that was simple,
clean, and free of artifacts. Apparently McKubre, an excellent
experimentalist, has done just that with the Case cell. Too bad Park has
his mind made up and doesn't want to be confused by facts.

You said:
"In addition, since in physics, the basic rule is that what is not
prohibited is mandatory, then we must give much greater credence to
the vast body of reports of the many varieties of cold fusion in the
last ten years. "

This is a major turnaround and I am pleased that you are able to make
it. You were disturbed by the apparently erratic data of Fig 8a
in the A&Z report we discussed some time ago, and I was puzzled also.
I finally figured out what was fairly obvious in retrospect: the rise in
output from 2400 to 3700 hours, and the sudden drop, was simply a matter
of Arata's gradually cranking up the input power to get the data for an
output/input proportionality, similar to Fig 8c -- which was derived
from another run, that shown in Fig 8b. We'd all be happier if A&Z
provided a better narrative about their experiments. Certainly one of
the criteria for a valid process -- as opposed to a selected collection
of artifacts -- is that there be some demonstrable relation between an
input parameter and an output parameter. I think it reasonable that A&Z
were just testing the system by cranking up the input current and at
3700 hours decided to drop it back down.

Case is indeed a remarkable man. I first saw him at ICCF-7, making a
poster presentation. His appearance was that of a backwoods untutored
inventor, but what he had to say got the respectful attention of
everyone, and McKubre cited him as outstanding in his summary remarks
at the close of the conference.

Miley is now able to manufacture replicable cathodes. Stay tuned.

Regards, Mike

Subject: Re: debate on Case cell He artifact 6.15.99
  Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 16:45:15 -0700
 Resent-From:  vortex-l eskimo.com
        Date:  Tue, 15 Jun 1999 17:45:46 -0600
        From:  Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
    Reply-To:  vortex-l eskimo.com
  Organization: Energy K System
          To: vortex-l eskimo.com
   
"Richard T. Murray" wrote:

> June 15, 1999  Hello,  My "poorly based criticism" airs some
> possibilities not discussed by Ed Wall: I've pointed out that days and
> weeks of exposure to ~3.4 atm D2 at 200-210 deg C will load a thin
> (how thin?) Pd film with D to a significant degree, leading to some
> amount (how much?) of phase change, expansion, and cracking, thus
> allowing much or most of any absorbed He to be released.

At this temperature and pressure, the maximum composition is near
PdH0.5, and this value will be achieved very quickly (minutes) when a
fine powder is used.  No cracking occurs at this composition.  Extensive
studies of He-3 release after tritium decay in palladium demonstrates
that simple loading at this temperature does not release contained
helium. Spontaneous release only occurs at high temperature or if the
amount of contained helium increase sufficiently to crack the material.

> The mass
> match of D (amu = 2) is close enough to that of He (amu = 4) to
> facilitate momentum exchange, i.e. the build up of D at 210 deg C
> would knock out the atoms of He.  So there is more to be considered
> than simple thermal effects.

It is easy to imagine all kinds of processes, but nature simply does not
behave this way. Gas loading, unlike electrolysis, quickly produces a
fixed and stable hydrogen concentration.  No hydrogen is moving out.
Consequently, even if a knockout process were possible, the hydrogen is
not moving, hence can not release He this way. Even if such a process
actually occurred, one would expect the He release rate to quickly die
off with time as He had to diffuse a longer distance.  This behavior is
not seen.

>
> Skeptics will naturally dismiss the results, unless these artifacts
> are addressed in detail.  That is inevitable, so my goal is to speed
> the process by catalyzing a thorough discussion by those more competent
> by far than me.

A worthy approach, but it presumes that the rest of us have not given
this explanation any thought at all.  A person needs to spend time
considering processes that have some hope of being possible. Skeptics
will propose any explanation to avoid believing the obvious and no
amount of proof showing that the explanation is false will have any
effect.  We can waste a lot of time this way.

>
> Horace Heffner has pointed out that the Ni (presumably in small
> crystal domains in the stainless steel walls) could also be a
> significant He sink, to be released as the Ni loads with D.  How
> rough are the SS walls on the microlevel?  What is its surface layer
> He content? How far deep into the SS walls would a deuterium-catalyzed
> He impurity release process work?

If this were the source, the identical blank cell should show the
effect. Also, people who used apparatus constructed from stainless steel
to study helium release from Pd should see this effect.  They do not.

> Could the repeated cycles of filling the cell with H2 and then D2 lead
> to impurity He being concentrated from the H2 and D2 into the Pd film
> and the SS walls?  How porous are the walls?

The H2 and D2 gases do not contain helium which is easy to check using
the control cell.

If this were the only claim for helium production, it would still be
impressive.  However, at least five careful studies of helium production
under various conditions have been published.  All of the measurements
give consistent behavior and allow the same conclusion.  Helium is being
produced when deuterium is present in special palladium and the energy
of the reaction is near 26 MeV. Rejection of this conclusion would
require a whole set of prosaic explanations which happened to conspire
to produce the same result.  How much proof does one need???

Ed Storms

Subject: Re: debate on Case cell He artifact 6.15.99
  Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 17:28:57 -0700
 Resent-From:  vortex-l eskimo.com
        Date:  Tue, 15 Jun 1999 16:32:11 -0800
        From:  hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
    Reply-To:  vortex-l eskimo.com
          To:  vortex-l eskimo.com

At 5:45 PM 6/15/99, Edmund Storms wrote:
>"Richard T. Murray" wrote:
[snip]
>> Horace Heffner has pointed out that the Ni (presumably in small
>> crystal domains in the stainless steel walls) could also be a
>> significant He sink, to be released as the Ni loads with D.  How
>> rough are the SS walls on the microlevel?  What is its surface layer
>> He content? How far deep into the SS walls would a
>> deuterium-catalyzed He impurity release process work?
>
>If this were the source, the identical blank cell should show the
>effect. Also, people who used apparatus constructed from stainless
>steel to study helium release from Pd should see this effect.
>They do not.

Yes, I certainly agree with this.  The He generation effect requires D2
gas PLUS the right catalyst.  This does not sound like a plausible
beginning, to look for a non-nuclear explanation relating to He
absorbtion in the vessel walls.  Still, an interaction with lots of
nickel and/or iron in the vessel walls, or at the catalyst/wall
interface, seems more likely than in the tiny abount of PD in the
catalyst.  There appears to be no good non-nuclear explanation,
unless there is a flaw in the He measurement itself.

[snip]
>How much proof does one need???
>
>Ed Storms

More independent replications.

Regards,  Horace Heffner

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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: ZPE & Light Lepton Pair Production Etc.
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 21:56:12 -0600
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To: Vortex

According to modern Quantum Electrodynamics, Ion-Ion and Atom-Ion collisions
can extract ZPE and create Electron-Positron (Light Lepton) Pairs. If a
Light Lepton Pair with a mass-energy roughly a million times less than that
of the Electron-Positron (about 0.5 ev or less) is created by
such collisions, CF as well as related phenomena can be explained simply by
borrowing from the
physics of the Heavy Ion collision experiments.

Thus a Hydrogen-Potassium or Deuterium-Potassium "Gas", under proper
conditions can get enough Thermal-Kinetic collision energy to pull this off
for OU and CF reactions.

Gas Conditions:

N =  2.69E19*PTo/PoT   (Atoms/Molecules/cm^3)

P/Po = T/To

Collision Mean Free Path   (MFP) =  1/(pi*r^2*N)       (cm)

v =  (2kT/M)^1/2     (cm/second)    k = 1.38E-16 ergs/deg K

For ion count at temp T,  the Saha Equation:

Log 10 (Ni^2/No)  =  -5040* Vi/T + 0.5 Log T + 15.385

For H2 or D2 Dissociation at temp T, the modified Saha Equation:

Log 10 [N(2H)^2/H2] =  -5040* bond ev/T + 0.5 Log T + 15.385

At 1.0  Torr the MFP of an electron  (or H2 molecule) in H2 is about 0.082
cm, which indicates that high pressure, especially at low temperature is
counterproductive.

This tends to suggest why Mills gets his best "Hydrino" yield at about 10
Torr with the temperatures he is working at.

Regards,     Frederick




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To: Vortex

A polished (interior) stainless steel chamber about 1/2 liter with a small
amount of potassium metal, pressurized with H2 or D2 to about 300 millitorr
at 300 K,well  insulated and heated from the inside with a light bulb used
as a 2 or 3 watt heater, may show helium production and OU effects. If you
can convince someone (like Scott) to do the calorimetry and put his RGA to
work.  :-)

Regards,     Frederick

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To: clifford carnicom.com, Vortex-L@eskimo.com, letters@csicop.org,
        skeptInq aol.com, JamesRandi@compuserve.com
Subject: Murray: skeptical about Santa Fe contrail photos  6.15.99
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http://www.carnicom.com/

Clifford E. Carnicom   clifford carnicom.com

June 15, 1999 Tuesday 10:45 PM  Hello, As an
activist the last 4 months on the Internet on
the issue of the toxicity of aspartame
(NutraSweet, Equal), I am no pawn of the status
quo.  However, as I just examined all the photos
of contrails in Santa Fe, I don't see anything
strange.  It looks like to me that contrails
vary according to the speed and altitude of the
plane, the fuel used, the efficiency of the jet
engines, and the weather.  The photos that seem
to show contrails coming from the tips of the
tail seem to me to be contrails in two-engine
jets, forming when the exhaust cools and expands
enough to allow the initially transparent vapor,
CO2 and H2O mostly, to condense into fog.  Got 
any ground photos of nozzles on parked or landing
jets?  Also, jets fly at 6 to 8 miles high. I
doubt that the contrail clouds settle close to 
the ground in less than a day.  A 5 mph breeze
would move the contrail contents 120 miles in a
day, in largely unpredictable directions.  So how
could the clouds be aimed at anything but entire
states?  This looks to me like "madness of crowds".
Rich Murray   Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103  505-920-6130 cellular VoiceStream
rmforall earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~rmforall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 15 22:24:06 1999
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June 14, 1999

Vortex,

Chuck Davis wrote that McKubre would be on Tuesday today between 5 to 7.

Yes, thank you, McKubre was inteviewed from 5:30 to 6:30 PM on AM radio KIEV
870khz Glendale by Ray Briem. It was conducted by telephone with McKubre at SRI or
his home.

Ray Briem, a long time radio talk host on KABC on the grave yard shift from 12-5
AM recently retired, then came out of retirement and went to work on an evening
shift at KIEV. He reads newspapers very widely, and one time had the teletype
running at his Malibu home tapped into the wire services.

This was where he probably caught the article written by Plotkin.

Preliminary background material on SRI's organization and purpose was covered by
McKubre and how things got started in cold fusion there by EPRI funding some
research into the field.

As the interview started, Briem read a sentence or two from the article written by
Plotkin where it was reported that McKubre gave a positive cold fusion report
before an assemblege of over a hundred professionals at the centiineal APS
meeting.

As reported earlier on the vortex, McKubre did not make the important Case
replication report but Russ George did---"informally". And the audience count were
in the fifties ---better than the year before which ranged in the forties.

Briem, entirely sympathetic to the cold fusion effort, tried to draw out some
'fire' from McKubre but only got 'ice' in response to encouraging questions of the
efforts under way.

McKubre was practically non-committal to take a position of nuclear reaction being
the cause of cold fusion. He would only go as far as to observe that the reaction
results observed, inconsistantly, was something beyond chemical. What that was,
was still open to question.

Briem started to ask about some 'umbrage' McKubre  had against Mallove --- this
question got mushed into an incoherent mish mash of reference to Infinite Energy
Magazine, the "Fire From Ice" book, and the findings of possible fraud of the MIT
cf  tests by Mallove. McKubre was totally non-positional of the situation.

A short discussion was covered of the recent MITI effort, their motives and
failure in Japan, P&F's past efforts and their current staus. Nothing new to
Vortex. McKubre did not say he was funded by MITI himself for some time in their
drive for development leadership in the new field.

Nothing was clarified as to what actually went on of his presentation at APS, of
Russ George, or his later fuller presentation at SSE which strangely resembles the
same data that Russ George reported first,

Nothing was explained of his current effort with the Case based replication
effort. Case was not mentioned at all. McKubre said that although he would love to
have a successful electrochemical success, being an electrochemist himself, the
present push was on to simpler approaches such as a gas loading effort on carbon
supported palladium. No Case much less Tanzella or George. Perhaps it was 'stage
fright' --- it was a first time radio interview for McKubre. Strange, he is fairly
eloquent and a presence before a live audience.

Nothing was mentioned of the Arata cells running successfully at SRI --- by DARPA
funds being obtained from Russ George's successful helium data run. Oh, Russ ran
his replication effort because SRI was not going to or interested in running a
Case replication effort themselves.

The questions from the radio audience ranged in vein from current interest in
Tesla's energy conjectures being researched, the fuel industry and political
ramifications of a successful CF future, and to see how simple it would be able to
run CF in a kitchen.

-AK-

ps I did take a rcording but it would be very hard to listen. The  reel to reel
recorder's capstan rubber belt drive stretched out of tension at this time.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 15 22:34:15 1999
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Subject: Reynolds: skeptical about Santa Fe contrail photos  4.3.99
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June 15, 1999  Clifford E. Carnicom, to his credit,
has a long, informed skeptical report on contrails by Jay Reynolds
on his website:

http://www.carnicom.com/

From: cen05897 centuryinter.net    Jay Reynolds
To: contrailsightings egroups.com, hwdickso@prodigy.net, 
clifford carnicom.com,Ian@Goddard.net (Ian Goddard)
Subject: Re: [contrailsightings] STRANGE HAZE
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 99 15:21:21 GMT

clifford carnicom.com
Dear Readers,
The series of photographs displayed at Cliff Carnicom's website:
http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm.
depicts two intersecting contrails which spread to form wider clouds.

Clifford described the incident :
"This set of photos became available today, March 18. They show 
dramatic and coordinated activity resulting in rapid cloud 
formation; this entire series occurred approximately within one-half 
hour on the morning of Feb 17th. There was a corresponding decrease 
in temperature of approximately 25 degrees within this same period 
over Santa Fe. This particular action appeared to be dedicated 
explicity to the case of "X marks the spot", as described by 
William Thomas in his recent interview on Art Bell on March 17-18."
and "No clouds were visible in the sky at 0730 Sunday Feb 14. 
Approximately two dozen contrails were observed over Santa Fe New 
Mexico by approximately 0930. By 1300 on the same day the majority 
of the sky was occluded with cirrus clouds of a nature similiar to 
those shown forming in these photos. Nearly all, if not all, cloud 
formation through the day was associated with prior contrail 
activity. Almost all contrails were created from East to West. 
Near sundown the vast majority of the clouds had dissipated. Upon 
venturing outdoors, symptoms of watering eyes and an irritated sinus 
have been experienced by the photographer from Feb 14 to Feb 16. A 
pattern almost identical to that described above occurred on Feb 16 
and Feb 17, 1999."

A review of archived weather images(2/day) is available for 
these dates.
satellite infrared: http://wxp.atms.purdue.edu/archive/sat_ir/9902/
Surface analysis: http://wxp.atms.purdue.edu/archive/sfc_map/
Upper air: http://wxp.eas.purdue.edu/archive/eta_init/9902/

An examination of the three day's archives shows an approaching low 
pressure front from the northwest that had formed at least 1000 
miles away from New Mexico. It is well known that contrail formation 
is more common under these conditions of decreasing pressure and
temperature, and increasing moisture. There is nothing unusual in 
this process. A much more dramatic example of contrail expansion
taken by a weather photographic specialist who is a 'storm chaser'
may be seen at: http://www.why.net/users/grhoden/oddities.htm

The hypothesis that parallel or intersecting contrails are unusual
is not supported by examination of the following graphic, which shows
the normal flight paths of air traffic over europe during a 1-1/2
hour period. http://dv.op.dlr.de/~pa64/literature/paris/node4.html

In that graphic, one can see hundreds of examples of
aircraft whose flight paths are running parallel, intersecting at 
all conceivable angles, and which if weather conditions were suitable,
would have displayed some truly remarkable patterns.

Ian Goddard has done a similar photo analysis in Maryland, on a day
that contrail formation conditions were excellent, which shows 
contrail formation coinciding with natural clouds. His analysis is
supported by some satellite photos taken at the same time, which
show extensive contrails.
see: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/contrail.htm
http://www.erols.com/igoddard/contral2.htm
http://www.osei.noaa.gov/Events/Unique/Other/UNIcontrails042_N5.jpg

Thus, patterns formed by aircraft as photographed by Carnicom
as result of parallel and intersecting flight paths are ordinary. 

The weather conditions on the day of the Carnicom photos are 
consistent with those known to form contrails, and were formed far 
away from the photo site. These conditions are also ordinary and 
naturally occurring. 

Weather conditions cause contrails to form, or not, contrails 
do not cause weather

"Richard T. Murray" wrote:
> 
> http://www.carnicom.com/
> 
> Clifford E. Carnicom   clifford carnicom.com
> 
> June 15, 1999 Tuesday 
> Rich Murray   Room For All
> 1943  Otowi Drive
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 505-986-9103  505-920-6130 cellular VoiceStream
> rmforall earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~rmforall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 02:26:47 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Q:  Extract ZPE  Re: ZPE & Light Lepton Pair Production Etc.
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	Dear Vo.,

	A question....  se text, cuts, question, below 

On Tue, 15 Jun 1999, Frederick  Sparber wrote:

> To: Vortex
> 
> According to modern Quantum Electrodynamics, Ion-Ion and Atom-Ion collisions
> can extract ZPE 

	Q: How does one extract the Zero Point Energy?  Can you make a
device which performs the extraction?  Can one obtain useful amounts of
energy this way?   If you collide ions and-or atoms how do you wind up
with Zero Point Energy?   If this happens do ALL collision "extract" Zero
Point Energy?  What does "extract" mean in this context? OR:  Extracted
from something [what-where?] to be ? released ? .. to where-how?

				J 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 03:56:49 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Case cell He artifact  6.14.99
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 07:00:54 -0400
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Ed wrote:
>Because it is reasonable to surmise that McKubre is not implanting helium
>into his catalyst, or loading it with tritium gas and waiting 12 years, we
>can dispense with Murray's poorly based criticism.    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If we could just get Bushmills to participate in one of these studies...

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 03:56:52 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Is the ion drive EHD/ARDA?
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 07:00:56 -0400
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John wrote:
>I don't know what specific ion drive anyone might be using, in the B-2
>or elsewhere.

NASA has a whole section on ion propulsion that you can find by using their
search engine.  These are designed for rockets, some which have recently
been launched.  The section gives an overview of a number of approaches.


>It is well known that they use uranium for artillery shells (it is
>depleted of specific isotopes, which have been removed for their
>nuclear uses.)  Uranium is dense and hard.  More mass in a smaller
>package would indeed reduce air drag over a similar less dense but
>equal mass of metal, such as iron.

I've also heard that the U heats up to such a degree upon impact, that it
will burn through anything.  I don't know if any formal calorimetry has been
performed, or if anyone has bothered to look for transmutations. 

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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Horace wrote:
>While using an efficient electric generator to drive a Brown's gas
>generator is a very good idea, especially from the standpoint of closing
>the energy loop, Bitter coils are not designed for anything like this
>purpose.  They are designed for magawatt power ranges and for supporting
>huge field densities.

You're probably right about this one.  I still want to make one or two just
for fun.  They don't look that hard to do, and may come in handy for one
thing or another.

[snip]
  Further, rotating the high voltage plates through the
>interior of the cell, protected and isolated from the cell by insulating
>material, also opens the door to hybrid plateless designs.  Use of high
>RPM, and many generator plates per armature permits generating at fairly
>high frequency.  For example, to operate at 16 kHz requires 100 plates at
>9600 RPM, or 30 plates at 32,000 RPM.  The majority of energy loss is in
>maintaining the generator HV plate charge, which can possibly be made very
>efficient, especially if the generator armature operates in a vacuum.

I think the nitro must be kicking in there Horace!  32,000 RPM?  I'd like to
keep this thing on the ground if possible 8^)  I can't start working on it
for 3 more weeks, but I'm thinking about doing the first one with stationary
plates, and go for the cold crack.  Low V.... and kind of mellow... until I
get the need for more speed.  Thanks,

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 03:57:13 1999
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Subject: More Fire From Glass
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 07:00:50 -0400
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Gnorts,

Back in the early 70's I was totally into photography, and was doing a lot
of experimenting with that.  I was living in Fort Wayne, Indiana, which has
or had at the time a very nice soapbox derby track, parts of which had built
into it some very steep slopes, well, steep by Indiana standards anyway.
One night I had my 35mm camera, tripod, and gear stowed in the trunk of my
car, and was heading over to pick up my girlfriend at the time, who worked
the second shift as a film splicer in the same photofactory that I worked
in.  It was a clear summer night, and on the way over there, I couldn't help
but notice that the moon was full, abnormally large looking, and extremely
close to the horizon.  I pointed it out to my girlfriend on the way to the
car, and she just flipped.  She started jumping up and down yelling "Take me
home, I got an IDEA!"  So I did, and she ran into her house, and almost
immediately came running back out wearing a one-piece bathing suit.  She
jumped back into the car, and yelled "Take me to the soapbox derby track,
QUICK!"  So I did - pronto.  I no sooner got the car parked, she jumped out
of the car, ran up one of the slopes, and yelled, "TAAAKE MYYY PICTURE!!!"

I looked up to where she was standing, and this humongous moon looked like
it was right next to her head, and just a bit above it.  It was stunning.  I
knew this wasn't going to last long, so I grabbed my gear, set it up, and
just started shooting away.  She did some ballet poses.  I had read about
night photography, and had done a lot of low level light work in rock
concerts, so I had kind of an idea of what the exposures should be, and I
shot most everything at between one minute and two minutes per exposure.  I
managed to shoot almost a complete roll before the moon got too high in the
sky.  We ran back to the lab, and managed to get the film stapled on to the
last run on the processor, and took them to one of the people who did the
proofing.  My buddy Tiny developed the paper, and around 4:00am we were
standing in front of the paper processor waiting for them to come out.  When
they came out, we all just stood there with our mouths open.  There was this
almost perfectly parabolic rainbow-colored shower of plasma-like fire
surrounding her sillouette on all the shots.  At first we all reckoned that
it was caused by some sort of refraction light bouncing around in the lens,
and it may have been, but the next day, I had another guy print up some
8X10's, and it didn't look like refraction.  The negs were 35mm, and
enlarged to 8X10 it was a bit grainy, but only a bit.  It was kind of
multicolored sparky looking, and the shape of the parabola narrowed when she
was standing straight up and widened when she was doing a more stretched out
pose.  In other words the shape stayed the same distance from her body.

I wonder if any of the film manufacturers have looked into silver
nanoparticles.  Seems like they would give an extraordinarily fine grain
image.  I haven't done any photography in years, anybody know if this has
been done?  

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 03:59:50 1999
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Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 04:51:34 -0600
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Dear John, You might try this for starters.   

Regards,    Frederick

 http://penguin.phy.bnl.gov/~sean/course.html

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 http://www-subatech.in2p3.fr/~henerg/qmd/hic/hic1.html

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 http://www.a-ten.com/books/physics/physics.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 04:51:38 1999
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 http://www.th.physik.uni-frankfurt.de/~george/third.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 04:57:18 1999
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Subject: Re: ZPE & Light Lepton Pair Production: STRUCTURE OF VACUUM AND ELEMENTARY MATTER
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This should about do it for you, John.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

 http://www.worldscientific.com.sg/books/physics/3218.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 06:22:24 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Murray: definitive defeat of Case cell helium artifact  6.15.99
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:21:08 -0400
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Rich,

> June 15, 1999  It is easy to prove that I am no "pathological skeptic",
> by sending to all those on my CF lists this admission of the definitive
> defeat of my Case cell helium artifact hypothesis, especially by the
> totally relevant detailed experimental results given by Ed Wall.

I did not accuse you of being a pathological skeptic.  I stated that I have
no desire to attempt winning over pathological skeptics.  If this is just
your most recent feint, you are exhibiting pathological qualities.  You
apparently have recently failed to check a referenced source before
replying.  There is no rule that states that you must read everything cited
by everyone, but simple respect would lead one to ask questions when lacking
information instead of presuming whatever sprouts up between one's ears is
of some significance.

The fact that you spent so much time supposedly analyzing the Arata & Zhang
work, as you claim, including background papers, would imply that the most
obvious helium contamination artifact would have come into your view.  This
issue was addressed in this great paper which you reject, and I only
repeated it.  Mere days before this recent amazing insight of yours (that
helium was present only as a contamination artifact), you were convinced of
the validity of the nuclear explanation.

Most of the problems with the Arata & Zhang report were due to the quality
of the english translation, in my opinion.  Perhaps Jed can comment on this.
Such problems and your inability to understand the work do not invalidate it
in any sense.  Criticism produced by a failure to understand or
unwillingness to work at understanding is not equivalent to beneficial
skepticism.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 08:33:43 1999
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Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:30:30 -0600
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Subject: Re: debate on Case cell He artifact  6.15.99
References: <v01530501b38c9e1827c1 [12.21.208.11]>
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Horace Heffner wrote:

> [snip]
> >How much proof does one need???
> >
> >Ed Storms
>
> More independent replications.
>

Now we come to the heart of the problem.  At least five carefully done,
independent studies of helium-heat production relationship have been published
in three countries.  These studies require special equipment, significant
money, and hard to obtain permission from supervisors.  Normally in science,
such self consistent work would generate much interest so that money and
permission would be released to further the work.  Not in cold fusion.
Instead, all kinds of trivial explanations are applied to each study.  The
patterns are completely ignored.  Meanwhile, the proposed solution is to do
more studies while every effort is made by skeptics to see that no money is
spent on such efforts.  People in the field do not require total belief in
their claims.  We only require reasonable support so that the real questions
can be properly answered.

Horace, I know that you are not responsible for this problem, but just put
your finger on the hot button. Sorry for the lecture.

Ed Storms




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Subject: Re: debate on Case cell He artifact  6.15.99
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At 9:30 AM 6/16/99, Edmund Storms wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>> [snip]
>> >How much proof does one need???
>> >
>> >Ed Storms
>>
>> More independent replications.
>>
>
>Now we come to the heart of the problem.  At least five carefully done,
>independent studies of helium-heat production relationship have been published
>in three countries.  These studies require special equipment, significant
>money, and hard to obtain permission from supervisors.  Normally in science,
>such self consistent work would generate much interest so that money and
>permission would be released to further the work.  Not in cold fusion.
>Instead, all kinds of trivial explanations are applied to each study.  The
>patterns are completely ignored.  Meanwhile, the proposed solution is to do
>more studies while every effort is made by skeptics to see that no money is
>spent on such efforts.  People in the field do not require total belief in
>their claims.  We only require reasonable support so that the real questions
>can be properly answered.


Yes, there is a lot of data out there, but not much in the way of
widespread and precisely replicated experiments.  Such will probably
require manufacture and sale of an affordable kit, so any small University
can afford to do the experiment.  Mass spectrometry or other difficult
analyses, if required, can be done by independent labs, with control being
provided by the experimentor submitting blind samples.


>
>Horace, I know that you are not responsible for this problem, but just put
>your finger on the hot button. Sorry for the lecture.

Good lecture, but like various others, I have my share of guilt to carry.

While we are at it, I think the carbon itself provides a likely suspect for
a non-nuclear explanation of the Helium results.  Carbon, or carbon exposed
to hydrogen gas, may be capable of holding helium and gradually releasing
it at higher temperatures.  A hydrogen gas of a sufficient velocity might
even provide a kind of scrubbing effect.  The explanation for the
difference between D2 and H2 is that convection cells tend to form in the
D2 environment, which scrubs the helium from the carbon once it is hot.  D2
might also be more effective due to its heavier molecular weight.
Differing catalysts might have differing affinities for helium in the
experiment temperature range.  The obtained results require uptake at a low
temperature and slow outgassing at a higher temperature, but only in a
scrubbing environment.  A control experiment could involve dissolving the
Pd out of the catalyst and running with carbon only.  Exposing the carbon
to an acid might change the carbon though, purging it of helium.  A better
idea for a control experiment might be to use the same catalyst as before,
but include a fan inside both the H2 and D2 cells.  If this hypothesis is
correct, then the H2 cell will outgas helium at a similar rate to the D2
cell, or at least at an improved and hopefully detectable rate.  It also
appears the experiment run times should be longer, to see if there is a
tailing off of He production, or a slow rate of production in the H2 cell.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 09:46:56 1999
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Ed Wall writes:

	Most of the problems with the Arata & Zhang report were due to
	the quality of the english translation, in my opinion.  Perhaps
	Jed can comment on this.

Akira Kawasaki and I concluded that the original Japanese is poorly
written. Perhaps this is because Zhang's native language is Chinese. She is
translating from her second language into her third. That is a remarkable
accomplishment. Although the paper is murky in places, it has a great deal
of information and I think the findings are solid, and the research is of
high quality. You have to work to understand it, but I suppose Zhang had to
work even harder to write it!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 09:48:11 1999
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Bill Briggs writes:

	Ah hah,

	The Jed & Mitchell show has moved to this new channel.

	Let's join the show already in progress:

	Jed>      Left
	Mitchell> Right

	Jed>      Right
	Mitchell> Wrong

It is a futile dialog of the deaf, but at least *I* keep coming up with
amusing anecdotes and quotes like these:

"It isn't going to work. You know it's not going to work. We know it's not
going to work. You're wasting money. Just stop!" - Nobel laureates I. Rabi
and P. Kusch, describing the maser four months before it worked.

"But that is not possible." - Niels Bohr

"That can't be right!" - John von Neumann

. . . describing the maser a year after it worked.

The other incidents I related are pretty funny too. I skipped many amusing
details to keep the message short. Think about Margaret Sanger at age 77
bullying reluctant biomedical researchers to follow up on 30-year-old
research, and persuading Page McCormick to fund the research. She had spent
a lifetime crusading for unpopular causes. At an age when most people
retire, there she was, launching a revolution. One determined person can
sometimes overcome opposition from millions of people, and the church, and
government. It is inspiring, yet frightening. Apparently, great ideas
cannot succeed unless some extraordinary person fights for them. Many great
ideas must have failed and been forgotten because they did not have a
Margaret Sanger or a Thomas Huxley to champion them. Townes continued to
work on the maser after his boss and another Nobel laureate walked into his
office and told him to stop. How many scientists would have the guts to do
that? Think of how many discoveries must have been pushed aside because
world-class scientists like Rabi, Kusch and Bohr discouraged younger
colleagues or ordered them to stop. Townes describes similar experiences
from his later career, especially the discovery of organic molecules in
interstellar space. This was delayed by 25 years thanks to the nay-sayers:

	Jack Welch told me later that he himself had talked about using
	the new antenna to search for some of the molecules suggested by
	1955 talk, but the idea had been squelched by other astronomers
	as a waste of time. At the same time, at Harvard, Norman Ramsay
	also wanted to look for ammonia. He had a student all set to
	make the attempt. However, Ramsay's fellow Harvard Nobel
	laureate, Ed Purcell, was so sure that ammonia would not show up
	that he talked the student out of trying. . . . Ed's logic was
	completely sound. . . . But his basic assumption that all
	interstellar crowds would be of very low density . . . turned
	out to be quite wrong.

- Townes, p. 173

People never seem to learn that your logic may be right but your facts and
assumptions may be wrong. You can never depend on logic.

This book has some awful puns tucked in unexpected places . . . Chapter 5
is titled "Maser Excitement -- and a Time for Reflection." Ouch.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 10:08:10 1999
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Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:07:55 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Bitter coils vs other ideas
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At 7:01 AM 6/16/99, Michael T Huffman wrote:
[snip]
>
>I think the nitro must be kicking in there Horace!  32,000 RPM?  I'd like to
>keep this thing on the ground if possible 8^)

That was just a sample calculation at the limits of feasibility to show
what might be done with just the plates.  I have what I think may be a very
esoteric capacitive generator design, which is brushless and permits
modulation by high frequencies, as well as waveform shaping via plate
geometry.  The armature is just a piece of metal on a rotating shaft.  The
output is a current waveform matching a designed profile. Whatever
instantaneous voltage is required to meet that defined current profile is
generated, up to the limit of the input potential, which I think might
typically be around 20kV.  It appears on paper to be a very special way to
drive both very low voltage cells and arc/spark/glow cells. All components
can be insulation covered, so there is no significant corona loss.  It
should be a very efficient device.  Interesting that the input to the
generator is essentially a potential (plus mechanical energy) and the
output is typicallly very low voltage and current regulated, with current
regulated by the input potential.  It is a very weird device, in my
experience anyway, and perfect for driving AC electrolysis and for attempts
to close the loop, I think.  Maybe I should do a patent search to see if it
is novel.  I feel fairly certain it is novel in this application.  Rotating
plates, microball bubble scrubbing, and current regulated wavefrom
generation might be a potent combination.

The main problem with AC electrolysis is burning the fuel, either in a
motor or recombiner, or even a torch or burner, without backfire.  If for
some reason AC electrolysis could be made much more efficient than DC
electrolysis, maybe a means of separating the H2 and O2 could be found.
One means is centrifuging, but the risk of explosion would be high.
Another means might be filtering the H2 via hydrogen diffusion, maybe using
a palladium filter.  Unfortunately, the supposed overunity aspects of
Brown's gas seem to have more to do with some special excited state of the
gas at the time of creation.  The other overunity aspect, however, is the
notion the the electrolysis can take place in a regime that using the heat
of the cell, in which case an efficient heat engine, cooled by the
electrolyte itself, might be used to drive the generator.  It's unlikely
scheme.  Efficient electrolysis might have some value though.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 11:13:22 1999
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Subject: Britz: Case cell He: lab background?  6.16.99
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Subject: Re: HEAVYWATERGATE
        Date:  Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:26:38 +0200
       From:   Dieter Britz <db kemi.aau.dk>
 Organization: University of Aarhus, Department of Computer Science
(DAIMI)
 Newsgroups:   sci.physics.fusion
  
On Wed, 16 Jun 1999, Dieter Britz (that's me) wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Jun 1999, Steve La Joie wrote:
> 
> [...]
> > In other words, you explain all the cases of excess Helium to
> > be contamination. Just as I said. BTW, you've overlooked the 
> > Russ George case which I was speaking of. See:
> > http://rsrch.com/saturna/APSpapers_1998_1999.htm 

OK, I looked this up, and read the 1999 paper (the 1998 one is cut
short).  I do have trouble imagining He diffusing against a pressure
gradient, where presumably there would be a strong "wind" at each
crack, going outwards (sorry, Richard, but convection transports more
strongly than diffusion). But still, Richard Schultz is right, the
5.22 ppm ambient was just assumed and should have been checked. How do
we know it wasn't 1000 ppm? 10^4? One thing that disappointed me was
an obvious omission.  An experimenter should have at the forefront of
his mind the possibility of error, here: contamination. There was a
control cell with H2, showing no growth of He. D2 was then let into
that cell, and still, no He showed.  That cell was still considered a
control even with D2. A possibility is that that cell was
helium-tight, and the other was not; this is consistent with
observations. The obvious thing to do to check that was to let H2 into
the cell showing He, and to (hopefully) see the helium disappear
again. This was not done, a pity. There was no excess heat
quantification, another pity.

I don't see how this paper constitutes a strong case for helium
production from cold fusion. There are better ones.

-- Dieter Britz alias db kemi.aau.dk;  http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db
*** Echelon, bomb, sneakers, GRU: swamp the snoops with trivia! ***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 11:26:31 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Bitter coils vs other ideas
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 14:26:47 -0400
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Horace wrote:
>That was just a sample calculation at the limits of feasibility to show
>what might be done with just the plates.  I have what I think may be a very
>esoteric capacitive generator design, which is brushless and permits
>modulation by high frequencies, as well as waveform shaping via plate
>geometry.  The armature is just a piece of metal on a rotating shaft.  The
>output is a current waveform matching a designed profile. Whatever
>instantaneous voltage is required to meet that defined current profile is
>generated, up to the limit of the input potential, which I think might
>typically be around 20kV.  It appears on paper to be a very special way to
>drive both very low voltage cells and arc/spark/glow cells. All components
>can be insulation covered, so there is no significant corona loss.  It
>should be a very efficient device.  Interesting that the input to the
>generator is essentially a potential (plus mechanical energy) and the
>output is typicallly very low voltage and current regulated, with current
>regulated by the input potential.  It is a very weird device, in my
>experience anyway, and perfect for driving AC electrolysis and for attempts
>to close the loop, I think.  Maybe I should do a patent search to see if it
>is novel.  I feel fairly certain it is novel in this application.  Rotating
>plates, microball bubble scrubbing, and current regulated wavefrom
>generation might be a potent combination.
>
>The main problem with AC electrolysis is burning the fuel, either in a
>motor or recombiner, or even a torch or burner, without backfire.  If for
>some reason AC electrolysis could be made much more efficient than DC
>electrolysis, maybe a means of separating the H2 and O2 could be found.
>One means is centrifuging, but the risk of explosion would be high.
>Another means might be filtering the H2 via hydrogen diffusion, maybe using
>a palladium filter.  Unfortunately, the supposed overunity aspects of
>Brown's gas seem to have more to do with some special excited state of the
>gas at the time of creation.  The other overunity aspect, however, is the
>notion the the electrolysis can take place in a regime that using the heat
>of the cell, in which case an efficient heat engine, cooled by the
>electrolyte itself, might be used to drive the generator.  It's unlikely
>scheme.  Efficient electrolysis might have some value though.

These are excellent ideas, Horace, and I will give them more thought.  It's
much warmer down here than I am used to, and my head functions differently
in the heat.  Probably a de-hydration thing.  I don't use airconditioning.
I wasn't following your idea very well.  I'd still like to play around with
a very small cell for a while at first, to see if the Brown's Gas is
substantially different than the regular H2 O2, and in what ways.  I
understand completely the need for flashback arresting, and the proper setup
for any testing of a prototype of this nature.

  There may be a hydrodynamic container geometry/flow trick that can
facilitate the separation of the gases that I can design at a later point,
possibly with the use of external magnetic influences.  I'm thinking of an
oversized container where the electrolysis occurs in the center, being the
plate location, the bubbles being gently moved to the outside of the
container by the slow turning of the plates, and separated magnetically in
an area of the container where the AC influence is maybe not as strong as it
is in the center.  Does that make sense?

BTW, Todd said that his generator/fuel cell combination design vs total
input power were around 90%.  If true, that's not too shabby.  He had some
good ideas for safer gas storage, too.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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Subject: Spencer: editors re Sicher distant healing study 1998
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Subject: Re: SSE: McKubre: heat & helium in Case cell: Benveniste:
             Randi: Case posts 6.7.99
        Date:  9 Jun 1999 16:42:27 GMT
       From:   skeptix efn.org (Wayne Spencer)
 Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
 Newsgroups:  sci.physics.fusion, sci.physics, sci.skeptic,
alt.paranet.skeptic, alt.skeptic.mag, alt.skeptic.society

Amongst other things the report on the recent SSE event posted on
Skeptix included this:

> Larry Dossey [ Ldossey ix.netcom.com ] summarized ongoing
> successful studies proving the reality of prayer healing at Duke
> University, while Bill Bengston [ bengston aol.com ]
> showed slides of mice being healed of cancer by psychic work in
> many experiments by briefly trained, skeptical students.
> 
> [ Sicher F, Targ E, Moore D 2nd, Smith HS.  A randomized
> double-blind study of the effect of distant healing in a population
> with advanced AIDS. Report of a small scale study.
> West J Med. 1998 Dec; 169(6): 356-63.
> Geraldine Brush Cancer Research Institute,
> California Pacific Medical Center, San Francisco, USA.   Abstract:
> Various forms of distant healing (DH), including prayer and "psychic
> healing," are widely practiced, but insufficient formal research has
> been done to indicate whether such efforts actually affect health.
> We report on a double-blind randomized trial of DH in 40 patients with
> advanced AIDS. Subjects were pair-matched for age, CD4+ count, and
> number of AIDS-defining illnesses and randomly selected to either 10
> weeks of DH treatment or a control group. DH treatment was performed
> by self-identified healers representing many different healing and
> spiritual traditions. Healers were located throughout the United
> States during the study, and subjects and healers never met. Subjects
> were assessed by psychometric testing and blood draw at enrollment
> and followed for 6 months. At 6 months, a blind medical chart review
> found that treatment subjects acquired significantly fewer new
> AIDS-defining illnesses (0.1 versus 0.6 per patient, P = 0.04), had
> lower illness severity (severity score 0.8 versus 2.65, P = 0.03),
> and required significantly fewer doctor visits (9.2 versus 13.0,
> P = 0.01), fewer hospitalizations (0.15 versus 0.6, P = 0.04),
> and fewer days of hospitalization (0.5 versus 3.4, P = 0.04).
> Treated subjects also showed significantly improved mood compared with
> controls (Profile of Mood States score -26 versus 14, P = 0.02). There
> were no significant differences in CD4+ counts. These data support the
> possibility of a DH effect in AIDS and suggest the value of
> further research. ]

This study of paranormal healing seems to be quite often mentioned in
discussions of the efficacy of prayer or distance healing. What is not
so often mentioned is the editor's introduction to the paper. In part,
this reads:

"The paper published below is meant to advance science and debate.
It has been reviewed, revised, and re-reviewed by nationally known
experts in biostatistics and in complementary medicine. It reports
a 6-month blinded study of 40 patients with AIDS who knew they might
receive distance healing treatments representing a variety of
traditions. Patients who received treatment had a statistically
significant more benign course than control subjects. Does the paper
prove that prayer works? No. The authors call for more research, as do
we and the reviewers, for a number of reasons. We note that the study
was relatively short and analyzed rather few patients. No
treatment-related mechanisms for the effects were posited. The
statistical methods can be criticized. We have chosen to publish this
provocative paper to stimulate other studies of distant healing and
other complementary practices and agents. It is time for more light,
less dark, less heat". 

Wayne Spencer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 11:56:10 1999
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Subject: PLEC: Run 6
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This run revealed some interesting things....but not excess heat.

First, we have definite evidence of "excess dissociation".  The cell
produced about 2.5 times more H2 and O2 gas than expected from the average
cell current. An explanation of this phenomenon is desired.  

Using all our analytical tools, we managed to account for the whereabouts
of essentially all of the W lost by the cathode during the run.
Surprisingly only about 5% of it ended up as metallic particles in the
bottom of the cell. BTW, it really does appear to be the "swarf" that EDM
typically produces.  A micrograph is presented which tends to confirm this.

Read all about it at:

http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/run6.html



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 12:14:53 1999
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Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:11:45 -0600
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Subject: Re: debate on Case cell He artifact  6.15.99
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Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 9:30 AM 6/16/99, Edmund Storms wrote:
> >Horace Heffner wrote:
> >
> >> [snip]
> >> >How much proof does one need???
> >> >
> >> >Ed Storms
>
>
> Yes, there is a lot of data out there, but not much in the way of
> widespread and precisely replicated experiments.  Such will probably
> require manufacture and sale of an affordable kit, so any small University
> can afford to do the experiment.  Mass spectrometry or other difficult
> analyses, if required, can be done by independent labs, with control being
> provided by the experimentor submitting blind samples.

Granted, many of the experiments are not replications but explorations.  However,
a significant number of replications have been done.  For example, I duplicated
heat production using the same batch of palladium that Takahashi found to produce
energy.  McKubre used active material from Pons and Fleischmann to duplicate the
claims.  Each of these studies used different calorimetry but the same material.
Many individuals have duplicated the effect when the same batch of palladium was
used.  It is obvious that we have a materials problem which will not be solved by
attempts to replicate using random samples. A kit is being attempted but it awaits
production of material which is completely reproducible.  This is not an easy
problem to solve especially with very limited funding.

When the heat effect has been produced, certain patterns have been seen as well.
These include the need to apply a critical current and the need to achieve a
critical composition.  These patterns are completely consistent between all
studies who took the trouble to make the necessary measurements.  I defy a skeptic
to explain these patterns as chance or error without looking completely insane.

>
> While we are at it, I think the carbon itself provides a likely suspect for
> a non-nuclear explanation of the Helium results.  Carbon, or carbon exposed
> to hydrogen gas, may be capable of holding helium and gradually releasing
> it at higher temperatures.  A hydrogen gas of a sufficient velocity might
> even provide a kind of scrubbing effect.  The explanation for the
> difference between D2 and H2 is that convection cells tend to form in the
> D2 environment, which scrubs the helium from the carbon once it is hot.  D2
> might also be more effective due to its heavier molecular weight.
> Differing catalysts might have differing affinities for helium in the
> experiment temperature range.  The obtained results require uptake at a low
> temperature and slow outgassing at a higher temperature, but only in a
> scrubbing environment.  A control experiment could involve dissolving the
> Pd out of the catalyst and running with carbon only.  Exposing the carbon
> to an acid might change the carbon though, purging it of helium.  A better
> idea for a control experiment might be to use the same catalyst as before,
> but include a fan inside both the H2 and D2 cells.  If this hypothesis is
> correct, then the H2 cell will outgas helium at a similar rate to the D2
> cell, or at least at an improved and hopefully detectable rate.  It also
> appears the experiment run times should be longer, to see if there is a
> tailing off of He production, or a slow rate of production in the H2 cell.

For this to be a plausible explanation we would also have to assume that charcoal
can absorb helium from the air at room temperature, that the amount of helium is
very nonuniform within a batch of granules, that only deuterium has the ability to
remove this helium, and the removal rate is linear with time.  In addition we
would have to assume that the helium was only produced when anomalous energy was
produced and then in amounts which are consistent with 24 MeV.  Are you willing to
make all these assumptions as well?

Ed Storms




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 12:33:13 1999
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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Hi Scott,

Run 6 comes under the heading of darned good scientific investigation.  As 
long as the unaccounted energy is within reasonable error expectations, there 
is no reason to suspect o.u.  Particularly when Mizuno's results are so far 
above the noise level.

Your chemistry is great and explains a lot of the action.  The mysterious gas 
is interesting but I'll bet it's not related to o.u. or not o.u.  The key 
question is: what is Mizzen doing differently?  What do you hear from Mizzen?

Regards,

Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 12:34:48 1999
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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Hi again,

Damned hi tech spell checker.  Please replace mizzen with Mizuno in my 
previous note.

Bob

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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>This run revealed some interesting things....but not excess heat.
>
>First, we have definite evidence of "excess dissociation".  The cell
>produced about 2.5 times more H2 and O2 gas than expected from the average
>cell current. An explanation of this phenomenon is desired.
>
>Using all our analytical tools, we managed to account for the whereabouts
>of essentially all of the W lost by the cathode during the run.
>Surprisingly only about 5% of it ended up as metallic particles in the
>bottom of the cell. BTW, it really does appear to be the "swarf" that EDM
>typically produces.  A micrograph is presented which tends to confirm this.
>
>Read all about it at:
>
>http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/run6.html
>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

***{Scott, this is a really excellent piece of experimental work. Jed
should be ashamed of himself for his repeated suggestions that you lack the
expertise to make a contribution in this area.

Turning to your conclusions, you said:

"1. This run didn't show any significant excess heat."

"2. About 5% of the W lost by the cathode ended up as swarf on the bottom
of the cell. The
remainder went into solution."

"3. During incandescent operation, the cell produced about 2.5 times as
much H2 and O2 gas as the
average cell current would predict. In other words, excess dissociation
occurred."

"All comments, suggestions, and criticisms of this work are welcome. In
particular we are interested
in an explanation of the excess dissociation phenomenon. We also seek a
gas-sampling strategy that
will eliminate the air contamination encountered in this instance."

The explanation for the "excess dissociation" is almost certainly the one I
presented in the recent lengthy thread on vortex b--to wit: the
undermeasurement of input power due to unmetered spikes in the current
flow. By means of a really excellent piece of experimental work, you have
unearthed what amounts to smoking gun proof that this is happening. Result:
since Mizuno is probably using different instruments to measure his input
power, the possibility arises that his meter is missing more spikes than
yours, thereby accounting for all of his "over unity" results.

--Mitchell Jones



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 13:48:26 1999
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:49:08 -0400
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Scott,
>From your web report on Run 6:

"This is a very interesting result in itself. It means that
there are processes going on in this cell that dissociate
H2O in some way other than ordinary electrolysis."
-
It has been bouncing around in my head lately that
many of the observed effects in these cells duplicate
Peter Graneau's observations in his water arc experiments.
Graneau observes a much larger, more energetic explosion than can
be explained in terms of the input pulse energy, and thermal energy
gains of around 2X have been found. He explains the results as due to arc/EM
breaking of the water molecule bonds, claiming that this requires less
energy than thermal or electrolytic breaking of the bonds. He has
been looking for an explanation for his results for many years and
has eliminated several other possible explanations during this time.
He is still actively pursuing the OU aspects of water arcs.
-
This suggests to me that the electrical high frequency transient characteristics
of the cell may have a strong effect on OU results. Graneau's arcs
are actually quite cool and very fast, more like sparks in my view.
-
If Ken Shoulders is right, both of these experiments may be showing
the effects of EV's.
-
Regards,
George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
1924 US Hwy 22 East            Bound Brook NJ 08805

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 13:52:39 1999
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Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:50:08 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Quotes from Townes book
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Thanks to my voice input program, I quoted Townes as saying:

	completely sound. . . . But his basic assumption that all
	interstellar crowds would be of very low density . . . turned

That should be interstellar clouds. Perhaps I have developed a slight
Japanese accent. Townes himself probably still has a South Carolina accent,
befitting his cheerful, modest, depression-era, deep-country background. He
sounds like a charming fellow. His book is not particularly technical, by
the way. It is autobiography, not a technical treatise on the discovery of
laser.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 13:53:47 1999
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Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:31:42 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Britz: Case cell He: lab background?
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Rich Murray quotes the usual misinformation from Dieter Britz:

	But still, Richard Schultz is right, the 5.22 ppm ambient was
	just assumed and should have been checked. How do we know it
	wasn't 1000 ppm? 10^4?

Question for Rich Murray:

You attended McKubre's lecture. I expect you know as well as I do that they
measured ambient helium frequently, and that it was always 5.22 ppm, and
there are no sources of helium in the building. It was not "just assumed,"
but measured. McKubre made this point abundantly clear at the APS, so I
expect he repeated it in his next lecture. And after all, *who wouldn't
measure ambient helium?!?* Furthermore, you have never been reticent about
asking people questions, so if you did not hear this directly from McKubre,
or if you have forgotten, you would normally think to ask him, because this
goes to the heart of the experiment. So you know the answer, or you damn
well ought to know it.

My question is: Why do you persistently spread this kind of garbage over
the Internet? You know the answer -- so why post the question? Britz is
trying to confuse the issue and deceive gullible people with false doubts
and pretend problems. Why do you assist him? Why do you act as a vector for
this disease, like a fly visiting a dunghill?

This latest Britz-ism reminds me of the statements by Taubes that in all CF
tritium experiments, the tritium count is made once, at the end of the run,
with no starting baseline or intermediate points. It is inconceivable that
anyone would do it that way, but Taubes repeated this nonsense in his book
and on the radio.


Incidently, I am delighted to see that you are back in the "skeptics" camp
where you belong, and where I predicted you would quickly return.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 14:05:36 1999
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Subject: RE: PLEC: Run 6
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Scott
	You do good work, and write it up well also.

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Scott Little[SMTP:little eden.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Wednesday, June 16, 1999 11:56 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	PLEC: Run 6
> 
> This run revealed some interesting things....but not excess heat.
> 
> First, we have definite evidence of "excess dissociation".  The cell
> produced about 2.5 times more H2 and O2 gas than expected from the average
> cell current. An explanation of this phenomenon is desired.  
> 
> Using all our analytical tools, we managed to account for the whereabouts
> of essentially all of the W lost by the cathode during the run.
> Surprisingly only about 5% of it ended up as metallic particles in the
> bottom of the cell. BTW, it really does appear to be the "swarf" that EDM
> typically produces.  A micrograph is presented which tends to confirm
> this.
> 
> Read all about it at:
> 
> http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/run6.html
> 
> 
> 
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 14:30:06 1999
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Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:25:44 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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Scott Little wrote:

	This is a very interesting result in itself. It means that there
	are processes going on in this cell that dissociate H2O in some
	way other than ordinary electrolysis. 

Yes, that is what Sengupta, Srivastava, Jasnogorodski, Polakowski, Ohwaku
and Kuroyanagi discovered from 1951 to 1955. They concluded that the
process does not conform to Faraday's laws, and they describe the process
and chemical products in detail, I believe. Scott: You might save time by
finding out what they learned, rather than reinventing everything yourself.
You might learn their techniques for capturing the gas. If you intend to
recapitulate their work from scratch, I suppose it will take you four years.

Question: which cell container are you using now? The quartz glass?

Mitchell Jones writes:

	The explanation for the "excess dissociation" is almost
	certainly the one I presented in the recent lengthy thread on
	vortex b--to wit: the undermeasurement of input power due to
	unmetered spikes in the current flow.

Not according to Sengupta et al., but what did they know? After all, you
wrote a speculative essay on vortex, whereas they were PhD electrochemists
who spent four years studying the phenomenon in the laboratory and
publishing peer reviewed papers about it. It is a pity they wasted four
years! You could have explained the whole thing to them in one day and
saved them all that trouble.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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----- Original Message -----
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6

What's all the mystery? You've got moles/second  of UV Photons above 4.4 ev
that will split the water molecules to O, OH, and H. Some of the liberated
O, and OH will combine with the Tungsten, and the rest will come out in the
off-gas stream.

Regards,    Frederick


> >This run revealed some interesting things....but not excess heat.
> >
> >First, we have definite evidence of "excess dissociation".  The cell
> >produced about 2.5 times more H2 and O2 gas than expected from the
average
> >cell current. An explanation of this phenomenon is desired.
> >
> >Using all our analytical tools, we managed to account for the whereabouts
> >of essentially all of the W lost by the cathode during the run.
> >Surprisingly only about 5% of it ended up as metallic particles in the
> >bottom of the cell. BTW, it really does appear to be the "swarf" that EDM
> >typically produces.  A micrograph is presented which tends to confirm
this.
> >
> >Read all about it at:
> >
> >http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/run6.html
> >
> >
> >
> >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
> >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
>
> ***{Scott, this is a really excellent piece of experimental work. Jed
> should be ashamed of himself for his repeated suggestions that you lack
the
> expertise to make a contribution in this area.
>
> Turning to your conclusions, you said:
>
> "1. This run didn't show any significant excess heat."
>
> "2. About 5% of the W lost by the cathode ended up as swarf on the bottom
> of the cell. The
> remainder went into solution."
>
> "3. During incandescent operation, the cell produced about 2.5 times as
> much H2 and O2 gas as the
> average cell current would predict. In other words, excess dissociation
> occurred."
>
> "All comments, suggestions, and criticisms of this work are welcome. In
> particular we are interested
> in an explanation of the excess dissociation phenomenon. We also seek a
> gas-sampling strategy that
> will eliminate the air contamination encountered in this instance."
>
> The explanation for the "excess dissociation" is almost certainly the one
I
> presented in the recent lengthy thread on vortex b--to wit: the
> undermeasurement of input power due to unmetered spikes in the current
> flow. By means of a really excellent piece of experimental work, you have
> unearthed what amounts to smoking gun proof that this is happening.
Result:
> since Mizuno is probably using different instruments to measure his input
> power, the possibility arises that his meter is missing more spikes than
> yours, thereby accounting for all of his "over unity" results.
>
> --Mitchell Jones
>
>
>
>

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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Thanks to my voice input program, I quoted Townes as saying:
> 
>         completely sound. . . . But his basic assumption that all
>         interstellar crowds would be of very low density . . . turned
> 
> That should be interstellar clouds. 

<snip>

Oh, darn!  I thought you had joined the UFO "true believers" club.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 14:59:56 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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Fred writes:

>What's all the mystery? You've got moles/second  of UV Photons above 4.4 ev
>that will split the water molecules to O, OH, and H. Some of the liberated
>O, and OH will combine with the Tungsten, and the rest will come out in the
>off-gas stream.

I do not understand the advanced electrochem. papers that Mizuno has been
telling me about, but I think this is the gist of it. The details are
complicated, but as Fred suggests, in essence, the energy that does not go
into Faradaic electrolysis causes other chemical reactions which produce
more effluent gas.

I hope to get a chance to review Sengupta et al. with Mizuno during the visit.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 15:29:06 1999
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Scott Little wrote:

> First, we have definite evidence of "excess dissociation".  The cell
> produced about 2.5 times more H2 and O2 gas than expected from the average
> cell current. An explanation of this phenomenon is desired.
>

Nice work Scott.  However, the 2.5 times excess dissociation is not
unexpected.  The amount of dissociation is only related to current during near
equilibrium electrolysis.  You are not doing such electrolysis.  First of all
the applied voltage is far above equilibrium.  This allows other processes to
operate involving radiation and various chemical effects.  In addition, the
extra energy being applied to the H2O molecules can cause multiple
dissociation's which produce various ions that combine to produce gas. The
system is just too complex to isolate which of the possibilities is dominate.
In any case, I'm not surprised.

Ed Storms


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 15:29:26 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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>Scott Little wrote:
>
>	This is a very interesting result in itself. It means that there
>	are processes going on in this cell that dissociate H2O in some
>	way other than ordinary electrolysis.
>
>Yes, that is what Sengupta, Srivastava, Jasnogorodski, Polakowski, Ohwaku
>and Kuroyanagi discovered from 1951 to 1955. They concluded that the
>process does not conform to Faraday's laws

***{Power measurement in the early 1950's was in the stone age compared to
now, and it is very difficult even today, using *state of the art
instrumentation*, to not undermeasure power when dealing with chaotic, high
speed variations in resistance of the sort that we see in these cells. I
would estimate the probability that these guys, using 1950's era
instrumentation, significantly undermeasured the current input to their
cells, at .99999999999999999999999999999999999999999, or perhaps a bit
higher. :-) I certainly would not toss Faraday's law into the dumper based
on their say so. --Mitchell Jones}***

, and they describe the process
>and chemical products in detail, I believe. Scott: You might save time by
>finding out what they learned, rather than reinventing everything yourself.
>You might learn their techniques for capturing the gas. If you intend to
>recapitulate their work from scratch, I suppose it will take you four years.
>
>Question: which cell container are you using now? The quartz glass?
>
>Mitchell Jones writes:
>
>	The explanation for the "excess dissociation" is almost
>	certainly the one I presented in the recent lengthy thread on
>	vortex b--to wit: the undermeasurement of input power due to
>	unmetered spikes in the current flow.
>
>Not according to Sengupta et al., but what did they know? After all, you
>wrote a speculative essay on vortex, whereas they were PhD electrochemists
>who spent four years studying the phenomenon in the laboratory and
>publishing peer reviewed papers about it. It is a pity they wasted four
>years! You could have explained the whole thing to them in one day and
>saved them all that trouble.

***{You are too emotional about this stuff, Jed. You need to loosen up, and
just focus on the evidence and logic. You know as well as I do that the
argument from authority is nonsense. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 15:29:28 1999
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Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:24:14 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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>----- Original Message -----
>From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 2:29 PM
>Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
>
>What's all the mystery? You've got moles/second  of UV Photons above 4.4 ev
>that will split the water molecules to O, OH, and H. Some of the liberated
>O, and OH will combine with the Tungsten, and the rest will come out in the
>off-gas stream.
>
>Regards,    Frederick

***{Good point. The pathway described by you is, of course, valid, and has
the added benefit of rescuing Faraday's law, since two dissociation
processes appear to be operating rather than one. The only remaining
mystery is where the energy to drive the uv dissociation pathway comes
from, given that power in has been measured to equal heat out. The answer
depends on the accuracy of Scott's measurements, and whether the
discrepancy falls within the existing margin of error, a question which I
will leave for Scott to answer. --Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 15:38:46 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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At 04:26 PM 6/16/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:
>Scott Little wrote:
>
>> First, we have definite evidence of "excess dissociation".  The cell
>> produced about 2.5 times more H2 and O2 gas than expected from the average
>> cell current. An explanation of this phenomenon is desired.
>>
>
>Nice work Scott.  However, the 2.5 times excess dissociation is not
>unexpected.  The amount of dissociation is only related to current during
near
>equilibrium electrolysis.  You are not doing such electrolysis.  First of all
>the applied voltage is far above equilibrium.  This allows other processes to
>operate involving radiation and various chemical effects.  In addition, the
>extra energy being applied to the H2O molecules can cause multiple
>dissociation's which produce various ions that combine to produce gas. The
>system is just too complex to isolate which of the possibilities is dominate.
>In any case, I'm not surprised.
>
>Ed Storms

 
  Although Ed is correct in much of the above, 
no experimental system is too complex to begin to isolate the
possibilities. 

  If Scott measures his actual output (+/- whatever) as a power
gain (rather than just stating "no excess heat"), and IF he
plots this as a function of input electrical power,
along with the optical radiation characteristics
(for example either measuring the color temperature, or the
  output in a specific energy band, here we use Spectra Physics401
  for some of these), then a appraisal of the phase space response
will become clearer.


  Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 15:38:50 1999
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Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 14:39:04 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: debate on Case cell He artifact  6.15.99
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I wrote:
>> Carbon, or carbon exposed
>> to hydrogen gas, may be capable of holding helium and gradually releasing
>> it at higher temperatures.  A hydrogen gas of a sufficient velocity might
>> even provide a kind of scrubbing effect.  The explanation for the
>> difference between D2 and H2 is that convection cells tend to form in the
>> D2 environment, which scrubs the helium from the carbon once it is hot.  D2
>> might also be more effective due to its heavier molecular weight.

At 1:11 PM 6/16/99, Edmund Storms wrote:
[snip]
>For this to be a plausible explanation we would also have to assume that
>charcoal
>can absorb helium from the air at room temperature,

Yes, that is the base assumption, that the catalysts that work can do this.
Absorb might not be the right word, but at least retain in some manner.


>that the amount of helium is
>very nonuniform within a batch of granules,

I don't follow the need for this to be so, but I would expect it to be so
anyway. It seems irrelevent.


>that only deuterium has the ability to
>remove this helium,

Actually the hypothesis is that the scrubbing effect due to the convective
cells that set up with D2 and not H2 is necessary, so yes the above is
true, unless the gas is internally stirred as suggested.


>and the removal rate is linear with time.

This asserion I think could use a longer run time to prove, but I admit it
certainly appears you are correct based on the published He vs time graph.


>In addition we
>would have to assume that the helium was only produced when anomalous
>energy was
>produced and then in amounts which are consistent with 24 MeV.


As far a I know this is not correct in regards to the Case cell studies
(the only thing I am addressing) because the runs either measured heat
production or Helium production, but not both at the same time.  The
correlation is deduced, as far as I know.


>Are you willing to
>make all these assumptions as well?


I think the possibility of temperature dependent carbon uptake of He in
some of the catalysts is sufficient to justify the effort to add a stirrer
to the cells to eliminate both the calorimetry effects and the possible
helium scrubbing effect of convection known to be present in at least some
D2 cells and but not in the same cells loaded with H2, based on Scott
Little's experiments.  The cells are stainless steel, so a magnetic stirrer
might be used.  It might require attaching a fan blade to adapt to the gas
environment.  This is not a very big effort.  An alternative is to do He
uptake studies the various catalysts, which would take far more time, I
think.

It seems to me to be unacceptable to simply assume a specific catalyst can
not hold helium.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 15:53:11 1999
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----- Original Message -----
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6

Say 2 H2O:

1, Two ~ =  4.4 ev Photons + 2 H-O-H --->   2 O-H +  2 H

2,  2 H --->  H2 + Photon   (~ = 4.4 to 4.5 ev)

3,  2 O-H ---->  HO-OH  +  Photon (2.6 ev)

4,  H-O-O-H ---->   H-O-H +  O + Photon

5, W + O ---->  WO + Photon

6, 2 O ---->   O-O   + Photon  !(~ 4.8 ev)

About 14 possible reaction paths to get from O2 and 2 H2 to water (2 H2O).
Remmber your are still "burning" the W Sputtered from the cathode in
addition to the electrolysis energy.

Regards,   Frederick


> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
> >To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> >Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 2:29 PM
> >Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
> >
> >What's all the mystery? You've got moles/second  of UV Photons above 4.4
ev
> >that will split the water molecules to O, OH, and H. Some of the
liberated
> >O, and OH will combine with the Tungsten, and the rest will come out in
the
> >off-gas stream.
> >
> >Regards,    Frederick
>
> ***{Good point. The pathway described by you is, of course, valid, and has
> the added benefit of rescuing Faraday's law, since two dissociation
> processes appear to be operating rather than one. The only remaining
> mystery is where the energy to drive the uv dissociation pathway comes
> from, given that power in has been measured to equal heat out. The answer
> depends on the accuracy of Scott's measurements, and whether the
> discrepancy falls within the existing margin of error, a question which I
> will leave for Scott to answer. --Mitchell Jones}***
>
> [snip]
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 16:04:05 1999
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At 04:44 PM 6/16/99 -0600, Frederick  Sparber wrote:
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 4:24 PM
>Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
>
>Say 2 H2O:
>
>1, Two ~ =  4.4 ev Photons + 2 H-O-H --->   2 O-H +  2 H
>
>2,  2 H --->  H2 + Photon   (~ = 4.4 to 4.5 ev)
>
>3,  2 O-H ---->  HO-OH  +  Photon (2.6 ev)
>
>4,  H-O-O-H ---->   H-O-H +  O + Photon
>
>5, W + O ---->  WO + Photon
>
>6, 2 O ---->   O-O   + Photon  !(~ 4.8 ev)
>
>About 14 possible reaction paths to get from O2 and 2 H2 to water (2 H2O).
>Remmber your are still "burning" the W Sputtered from the cathode in
>addition to the electrolysis energy.
>
>Regards,   Frederick



   There are more. 

    The electronically excited states of molecular diatomic
oxygen also permit electron charge transfer (as well as to atomic
oxygen) so that many other reactions are possible.
For example, although hydroxyl free radical [3 (above)  actually  OH.  ]
is listed, superoxide free radical and the other reactions moeities
including those involving dimolar reactions, moloxides, etc.
are not.  

    But it is a good start, Frederick.   ;-)X

   Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 16:04:38 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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At 1:56 PM 6/16/99, Scott Little wrote:
>This run revealed some interesting things....but not excess heat.

You sure do good work Scott!

>
>First, we have definite evidence of "excess dissociation".  The cell
>produced about 2.5 times more H2 and O2 gas than expected from the average
>cell current. An explanation of this phenomenon is desired.


I'll throw CO into the hat.  The anode side of the glow discharge, which is
liquid, contains carbonate radicals, which are possibly being reduced to CO
and O2 by energetic electrons.  You have a suspicious peak at mass 28.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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The tungsten or tunsten compound could be in a colloidal suspension.  Got a
centrifuge handy?   If not, sometimes a drop of liquid soap will help
settle a suspension overnight.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 20:46:15 EDT
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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In a message dated 6/16/99 1:37:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mjones jump.net 
writes:

<< Result:
 since Mizuno is probably using different instruments to measure his input
 power, the possibility arises that his meter is missing more spikes than
 yours, thereby accounting for all of his "over unity" results. >>


Mitchell,

Since both experimenters are using d.c. power supplies as solid as a brick 
s-house and the hash on the power trace is minimal, I suspect the difference 
between the two experiments is somewhere else, and probably something pretty 
basic.

I think Scott needs to start packing his bag and checking schedules to Japan.

Bob Briggs

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Subject: Murray: Britz: Case cell He: lab background?  6.16.99
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June 16, 1999   Hello Jed Rothwell,  I admit it, comrade, I have an
intuition, or a prejudice, or an assessment, that the Case cell, and the
Arata cell, replications will come to naught.   In my mind, I belong in 
the camp that the trail of evidence leads to.  I welcome completely
unexpected advances in science-- my personal experience base is
unusually fluid and vast: it is obvious that we and our realities are
aspects of a single infinite creative process.  No, I kept a low profile
at the Society for Scientific Exploration, especially regarding cold
fusion.  I regard Britz highly, as a competent skeptic who has been
putting out immense volunteer labor for years on maintaining a public
bibliography for the cold fusion feild, and, to my surprise, gave a very
favorable review of Mizuno's book.  Seems to me, tis a simple thing
for Mike McKubre to post a note, detailing his measurements of ambient
He.  I'd really like to have him post all details daily on the Net,
a la Little.  Hey, Jed, my memory for details is poor-- whatever 
Mike McKubre may have said about checks on ambient He, I would 
recall only the fragmentary notes I jotted down, as the slides
flashed by.  I was interested that Miley listed a run #15,
claiming excess heat in Ti film in 1996, something you posted
then that he had told you, 290 hour run, .4+-.4 W excess heat.
I notice I'm a lot less irritable, now that I'm off all caffeine.

Regards,  Rich Murray  

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Rich Murray quotes the usual misinformation from Dieter Britz:
> 
>         But still, Richard Schultz is right, the 5.22 ppm ambient was
>         just assumed and should have been checked. How do we know it
>         wasn't 1000 ppm? 10^4?
> 
> Question for Rich Murray:
> 
> You attended McKubre's lecture. I expect you know as well as I do that they
> measured ambient helium frequently, and that it was always 5.22 ppm, and
> there are no sources of helium in the building. It was not "just assumed,"
> but measured. McKubre made this point abundantly clear at the APS, so I
> expect he repeated it in his next lecture. And after all, *who wouldn't
> measure ambient helium?!?* Furthermore, you have never been reticent about
> asking people questions, so if you did not hear this directly from McKubre,
> or if you have forgotten, you would normally think to ask him, because this
> goes to the heart of the experiment. So you know the answer, or you damn
> well ought to know it.
> 
> My question is: Why do you persistently spread this kind of garbage over
> the Internet? You know the answer -- so why post the question? Britz is
> trying to confuse the issue and deceive gullible people with false doubts
> and pretend problems. Why do you assist him? Why do you act as a vector for
> this disease, like a fly visiting a dunghill?
> 
> This latest Britz-ism reminds me of the statements by Taubes that in all CF
> tritium experiments, the tritium count is made once, at the end of the run,
> with no starting baseline or intermediate points. It is inconceivable that
> anyone would do it that way, but Taubes repeated this nonsense in his book
> and on the radio.
> 
> Incidently, I am delighted to see that you are back in the "skeptics" camp
> where you belong, and where I predicted you would quickly return.
> 
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 18:38:13 1999
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Subject: Re: debate on Case cell He artifact  6.15.99
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>
> At 1:11 PM 6/16/99, Edmund Storms wrote:
> [snip]
> >For this to be a plausible explanation we would also have to assume that
> >charcoal
> >can absorb helium from the air at room temperature,
>
> Yes, that is the base assumption, that the catalysts that work can do this.
> Absorb might not be the right word, but at least retain in some manner.
>
> >that the amount of helium is
> >very nonuniform within a batch of granules,
>
> I don't follow the need for this to be so, but I would expect it to be so
> anyway. It seems irrelevent.

The need is obtained from the observation that only certain samples out of the
same batch of catalyst work.  Presumably if the He concentration were uniform,
all samples would show He production. On the other hand, failure to initiate a
nuclear reaction could result from failure to remove all impurities from the
surface in the failed runs.  This purification process is known to be important
and tricky.

>
> >that only deuterium has the ability to
> >remove this helium,
>
> Actually the hypothesis is that the scrubbing effect due to the convective
> cells that set up with D2 and not H2 is necessary, so yes the above is
> true, unless the gas is internally stirred as suggested.

Only D2 has been found to produce He.  No He was produced when H2 was used.

> >and the removal rate is linear with time.
>
> This asserion I think could use a longer run time to prove, but I admit it
> certainly appears you are correct based on the published He vs time graph.

Unless the concentration of He was very high in carbon, the loss rate should show
a steady drop with time.  The loss rate surely would be dependent on the
diffusion distance, which would increase, and on the remaining concentration,
which would decrease. If the helium were being supplied from adsorbed He on the
surface, the rate should drop rapidly.

> >In addition we
> >would have to assume that the helium was only produced when anomalous
> >energy was
> >produced and then in amounts which are consistent with 24 MeV.
>
> As far a I know this is not correct in regards to the Case cell studies
> (the only thing I am addressing) because the runs either measured heat
> production or Helium production, but not both at the same time.  The
> correlation is deduced, as far as I know.

No, McKubre has measured both at the same time.  He can calculate power
production two different ways, both of which agree with each other and with the
He release rate.  Of course, he as well as the rest of us would like to see more
exact calorimetry.  Additional experiments are underway to solve this
requirement.

> >Are you willing to
> >make all these assumptions as well?
>
> I think the possibility of temperature dependent carbon uptake of He in
> some of the catalysts is sufficient to justify the effort to add a stirrer
> to the cells to eliminate both the calorimetry effects and the possible
> helium scrubbing effect of convection known to be present in at least some
> D2 cells and but not in the same cells loaded with H2, based on Scott
> Little's experiments.  The cells are stainless steel, so a magnetic stirrer
> might be used.  It might require attaching a fan blade to adapt to the gas
> environment.  This is not a very big effort.  An alternative is to do He
> uptake studies the various catalysts, which would take far more time, I
> think.

Part of the requirement for a successful result is to have a design in which
normal convection operates.  Consequently, the proposed requirement for some
stirring seems to be met.  In the case of McKubre, the same convection was
present in the H2 containing cell. Case examined many catalysts, only a few of
which caused anomalous power production.  He production was not measured during
these studies.

> It seems to me to be unacceptable to simply assume a specific catalyst can
> not hold helium.

No, but experience indicates that carbon holds only a small amount of helium and
then only after it has been exposed to 100% gas.  This assumption still does not
account for the anomalous energy nor the helium which has been seen in the
electrolytic environment.

We have three question: Is the He real, is the anomalous power real, and are
these observations part of a more general pattern which is caused by a nuclear
reaction?  I suggest a proper analysis needs to address each question rather than
just trying to explain the He in this one experiment.  I suggest that the
probability of error or chance causing all of these experiments to show a pattern
consistent with a nuclear source is approaching zero.  Even if the McKubre work
were the only observation, as skeptics like to assume, I would admit a greater
probability for error or chance, but still not large.

Regards,

Ed Storms




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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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The peak at mass 28 must be mostly oxygen from the air inlet.  The mass 28
peak is at 9.6 vs 1.6 for the peak at mass 32 (assumed to be O2) which is
only 1.6/(1.6+9.6) = 14.3 percent.  Since oxygen is about 21 percent of the
atmosphere, the peak at mass 28 is too high.  The N2 peak should be about
8.8 high, so the excess is only about 0.8 excess, or about 8 percent of the
peak being from CO.

However, the catalyst should have been effective at combining CO and O2,
which would have left a sizeable CO2 peak, which is only at 0.2.  It
doesn't look like CO is a significant part of what is happening.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 19:35:26 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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Wow! Throw this group a barely anomalous result and stand back!....<g>
Seriously, thanks for all the kudos and for the very pertinent comments.
Here are a few returns:

At 03:29 PM 6/16/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>The explanation for the "excess dissociation" is almost certainly the one I
>presented in the recent lengthy thread on vortex b--to wit: the
>undermeasurement of input power due to unmetered spikes in the current
>flow.

That doesn't wash.  Presumably I am measuring the average current correctly
(because Pout = Pin) and yet my average current doesn't match my gas flow.

At 03:27 PM 6/16/99 -0600, Frederick  Sparber wrote:

>What's all the mystery? You've got moles/second  of UV Photons above 4.4 ev
>that will split the water molecules to O, OH, and H.

That sounds pretty damned good, Fred.  It is supported by the fact that I
have observed the excess gas being emitted even when the cell is operated
way down on the lower V-I hysteresis leg where the cathode is no longer
red-hot but is still covered with purplish electrical discharges....i.e
emitting UV.

At 03:06 PM 6/16/99 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:

>I'll throw CO into the hat.  The anode side of the glow discharge, which is
>liquid, contains carbonate radicals, which are possibly being reduced to CO
>and O2 by energetic electrons.  You have a suspicious peak at mass 28.

Good call, Horace.  I need to get rid of the air and then we'll see if that
peak remains.  Any ideas for sampling a pocket of gas in an inverted vessel
under water without getting any air contamination?  I suppose I could purge
things with a "safe" gas like Ar which we would never expect to see coming
from the experiment....

>However, the catalyst should have been effective at combining CO and O2,
>which would have left a sizeable CO2 peak, which is only at 0.2.  It
>doesn't look like CO is a significant part of what is happening.

Maybe.  We'll just have to wait until I can get rid of the air...then we'll
see.

At 04:26 PM 6/16/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:

>Nice work Scott.  However, the 2.5 times excess dissociation is not
>unexpected.  The amount of dissociation is only related to current during
near
>equilibrium electrolysis.  You are not doing such electrolysis.

Thanks, Ed.  Indeed this cell's operation is rather extraordinary as
electrolysis cells go.  

At 06:30 PM 6/16/99 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>  If Scott measures his actual output (+/- whatever) as a power
>gain (rather than just stating "no excess heat"), and IF he
>plots this as a function of input electrical power,
>along with the optical radiation characteristics
>(for example either measuring the color temperature, or the
>  output in a specific energy band, here we use Spectra Physics401
>  for some of these), then a appraisal of the phase space response
>will become clearer.

OK, Mitchell, here's the gain plot for the runs I've done thus far:

            Pout/Pin vs Pin for Runs 2-6
    |     
    |
1.00-                   x x x xx 
    |
    |
    |
0.50 -
    |
    |
    |
  0 ---------|---------|---------|
    0        50       100       150 
     

At 05:25 PM 6/16/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Yes, that is what Sengupta, Srivastava, Jasnogorodski, Polakowski, Ohwaku
>and Kuroyanagi discovered from 1951 to 1955. They concluded that the
>process does not conform to Faraday's laws, and they describe the process
>and chemical products in detail, I believe. Scott: You might save time by
>finding out what they learned, rather than reinventing everything yourself.
>You might learn their techniques for capturing the gas. If you intend to
>recapitulate their work from scratch, I suppose it will take you four years.

Thanks for the advice but, in my opinion, I didn't waste any time on this
experiment.  It is my intention to observe the various reported phenomena
associated with these cells...including the excess heat effect...in this
laboratory with my own hands.

>Question: which cell container are you using now? The quartz glass?

Not yet....it's still borosilicate glass.  Actually the fused quartz
beakers  arrived today but were the wrong shape!  They made short-form
beakers instead of the tall-form I ordered (and require).  Responding
properly, they promised to have the right beakers in my hands by this
Friday.  I'll have the pure water then too and, finally, I'll be ready to
try one of Mizuno's cathodes.  I wonder if I should use 0.2 M K2CO3 instead
of the 0.1 M I've been using.  I notice that many of the figures you sent
me from Mizuno's paper indicate that 0.2M K2CO3 was used.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

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>At 06:30 PM 6/16/99 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>
>>  If Scott measures his actual output (+/- whatever) as a power
>>gain (rather than just stating "no excess heat"), and IF he
>>plots this as a function of input electrical power,
>>along with the optical radiation characteristics
>>(for example either measuring the color temperature, or the
>>  output in a specific energy band, here we use Spectra Physics401
>>  for some of these), then a appraisal of the phase space response
>>will become clearer.
>
>OK, Mitchell, here's the gain plot for the runs I've done thus far:
>
>            Pout/Pin vs Pin for Runs 2-6
>    |     
>    |
>1.00-                   x x x xx 
>    |
>    |
>    |
>0.50 -
>    |
>    |
>    |
>  0 ---------|---------|---------|
>    0        50       100       150 
>     
>




  Scott:

  A good start.   ;-)X

  If you want to get serious, 
blow it up from 0.95 to 1.05; and put error
bars on to see where you are.

  Have a good day.
    Mitchell


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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At 9:37 PM 6/16/99, Scott Little wrote:
[snip]
>Good call, Horace.  I need to get rid of the air and then we'll see if that
>peak remains.  Any ideas for sampling a pocket of gas in an inverted vessel
>under water without getting any air contamination?  I suppose I could purge
>things with a "safe" gas like Ar which we would never expect to see coming
>from the experiment....


Yes - take a syringe with a cannula attachment for a fine cannula (less
than #20).  Fill syringe with water, and eject into cannula filling it.
Insert cannula up into the top of the gas collector while under water and
filled with water.  You may need to atttach something to the cannula to
keep it rigid enough.  When time to sample comes, just pull on syringe and
draw water out of cannula and take as much gas as wanted.  If syringe is
then held vertically, plunger on top, water can be forced back into cannula
to make it ready for another sample.  You can get cannula valves that will
allow you to disconnect the syringe and use it to inject the gas elsewhere,
or maybe just try folding and clamping the cannula.

That's a basic idea with lots of variations, depending on what you have around.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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I wrote "Scott: You might save time by finding out what they learned,
rather than reinventing everything yourself." Scott replies:

	Thanks for the advice but, in my opinion, I didn't waste any
	time on this experiment.  It is my intention to observe the
	various reported phenomena associated with these
	cells...including the excess heat effect...in this laboratory
	with my own hands.

Short cuts make long delays. You *will* waste your time until you
understand the chemical and electrochemical processes in this cell. Without
this understanding, you have no basis to compare your cell to Mizuno's. You
need a checklist of important factors like voltage, temperature, effluent
gas composition, color of glow discharge and so on. I am beginning to
learn, by rote, where some of these parameters should be, but I could not
replicate the experiment from scratch with different equipment unless I
understood from theory what role they play and how they relate to one another.

Your results have begun to reveal the complexity of this reaction on the
chemical level. You see the problem space unfolding. If you continue
blindly testing, without measuring critical control parameters -- without
even knowing what the parameters are -- you might repeat the experiment
hundreds, or thousands, or millions of times without success. You will have
no idea whether you are getting closer or farther away from a positive
result. It would be like trying to make a transistor with randomly selected
impure samples of silicon.

This is not my opinion, and it is not based on any knowledge of mine.
Mizuno, Bockris, McKubre and the other electrochemists say they would never
proceed without first developing an understanding of the underlying
chemistry. Mizuno took a shortcut by reading the literature. That isn't
cheating. Ask me something tricky about programming or Japanese grammar and
I'll look it up!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 16 22:10:05 1999
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Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:47:31 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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>Wow! Throw this group a barely anomalous result and stand back!....<g>
>Seriously, thanks for all the kudos and for the very pertinent comments.
>Here are a few returns:
>
>At 03:29 PM 6/16/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>The explanation for the "excess dissociation" is almost certainly the one I
>>presented in the recent lengthy thread on vortex b--to wit: the
>>undermeasurement of input power due to unmetered spikes in the current
>>flow.
>
>That doesn't wash.  Presumably I am measuring the average current correctly
>(because Pout = Pin) and yet my average current doesn't match my gas flow.

***{My assumption has been that your computation of Pout at a given instant
was based solely on the measured rate of heat output of your cell, as
determined by your calorimeter. (On your website, you describe your
recombiner as "external," which I took to mean "outside of the
calorimeter.") If so, then the total energy output of your cell would be
the sum of (a) INT(0,T) Pout, where T is the elapsed time, (b) the energy
required for electrolytic splitting of H2O, (c) the energy required for uv
splitting of H2O, and (d) the energy required to drive the reaction W +
4H2O --> H2WO4 + 3H2. Given that what you are calling Pout only measures
the rate of heat output of the cell, and given your statement that Pin =
Pout for this run, it seems to follow that when (b), (c), and (d) are taken
into account, you ought to go "over unity." Since I do not believe you are,
in fact, "over unity," it seems to me that you must have undermeasured the
input power. Thus I am inclined to conclude that your power meter is
failing to account for current spikes that fall between samples--a failing
which, I might add, is very common in situations such as this, where jagged
current waveforms are involved. Since you seem to disagree with this
analysis, I find myself curious as to precisely where you think my error
lies. --Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

>
>Scott Little
>EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
>512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX)
>little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

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At 12:16 AM 6/17/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>If you continue
>blindly testing, without measuring critical control parameters -- without
>even knowing what the parameters are -- 

Your portrayal of my efforts is incorrect at best.  I am in frequent
contact with Mizuno and that he is eager for my experiments to succeed.  As
a result of this constructive communication, I am measuring everything that
Mizuno thinks is important for the excess heat effect and my values are
within his "target zone" for excess heat production.  He has inspected my
data and HE DOES NOT KNOW why I don't observe excess heat from my cell.

There are two possible explanations for this predicament:

1.  Mizuno's cell does produce excess heat and I am doing the experiment
wrong.

2.  Mizuno's cell does not produce excess heat and his results are due to a
fairly subtle but large calorimetry (which includes the input power
measurement) error.

At this point, what probability would you assign to each of these?


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

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June 16, 1999  Hello,  Horace Heffner [ hheffner mtaonline.net ] has
aired an interesting, obvious possibly that the porous C briquets,
~10 gm, plated with a thin film of .04 gm Pd [0.4%], could be the source
or storage sink of the He released in the Case cell from 28 days
at ~3.4 atm of D2 at 200-210 deg C in a 50 cc stainless steel cell.
A control cell with H2 showed no He.

The measured He was 5E16 atoms, which, as 1 amu = 1.66E-24 gram,
gives .332 mg He, 8.3 ppm by weight of the Pd, 221 ppm by number
of atoms, while for the 10 gm of C, we have .033 ppm by weight,
.1 ppm by number of atoms.  So, if the C had .3 ppm He by weight
as a trace impurity, and 10% was released during the 28 days, that
would provide the measured He.

At a guess, the C is not of high purity, since it serves as an inert
substate for the Pd film.  It is likely to have trace amounts of
U, Th, and their decay products.  Since the Pd plating is rather
impervious to He, each briquet will store up the He produced by
alpha decay.  Since this catalyst has been on the market since
the 1920's, the question arises as to how old each particular 
batch is, since each briquet is going to be a little bottle of He.

Does anyone have data about typical He levels as a trace inpurity
in porous C from different sources and processes, and any
correlations with age and U and Th impurities?

When I told my girl friend Sondra, a successful acapuncturist,
long a willing foil for my ruminations on cold fusion artifacts,
about the 3.4 atm pressure, she immediately said, "The briquets
will crack."  I hadn't thought of that.  The heat will expand
the C and the Pd film, and the pressure will ensure that any
cracks or pores will allow entry of the H2 or D2 into the C,
in addition to the easy diffusion of H2 or D2 straight through
the Pd film.  So, He can be forced out through the same cracks and
pores. Heffner has pointed out that H2 and D2 will have
different patterns of circulation in the bed of briquets.  I
have seen that the heavier D, compared to H, will more
forcefully dislodge the He from the porous C.  I guess that
He is not tightly bound in the C.  The various cycles of
loading with 3.4 atm of H2 and D2 in different runs could also
lead to storage of He, if it is a trace constituent of those
gases.

Briquets can be oxidized in pure oxygen, in order to study the
amount of released He, and the distribution, before and after
runs in the Case cell.  Any changes in the surface Pd film can
be imaged. The effects of runs in H2 and in D2 can be studied.

Rich Murray   Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103   505-920-6130  cellular VoiceStream
rmforall earthlink.net

Subject: Re: debate on Case cell He artifact 6.15.99
 Resent-Date:  Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:35:44 -0700
 Resent-From:  vortex-l eskimo.com
        Date:  Wed, 16 Jun 1999 14:39:04 -0800
        From:  hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
    Reply-To:  vortex-l eskimo.com
          To:  vortex-l eskimo.com

I wrote:
>> Carbon, or carbon exposed
>> to hydrogen gas, may be capable of holding helium and gradually
>> releasing it at higher temperatures.  A hydrogen gas of a sufficient
>> velocity might even provide a kind of scrubbing effect.  The
>> explanation for the difference between D2 and H2 is that convection
>> cells tend to form in the D2 environment, which scrubs the helium
>> from the carbon once it is hot.  D2 might also be more effective
>> due to its heavier molecular weight.

At 1:11 PM 6/16/99, Edmund Storms wrote:
[snip]
>For this to be a plausible explanation we would also have to assume
>that charcoal can absorb helium from the air at room temperature,

Yes, that is the base assumption, that the catalysts that work can do
this. Absorb might not be the right word, but at least retain in some
manner.

>that the amount of helium is very nonuniform within a batch of
>granules,

I don't follow the need for this to be so, but I would expect it to be
so anyway. It seems irrelevant.

>that only deuterium has the ability to remove this helium,

Actually the hypothesis is that the scrubbing effect due to the
convective cells that set up with D2 and not H2 is necessary, so yes the
above is true, unless the gas is internally stirred as suggested.

>and the removal rate is linear with time.

This asserion I think could use a longer run time to prove, but I admit
it certainly appears you are correct based on the published He vs time
graph.

>In addition we would have to assume that the helium was only produced
>when anomalous energy was produced and then in amounts which are
>consistent with 24 MeV.

As far a I know this is not correct in regards to the Case cell studies
(the only thing I am addressing) because the runs either measured heat
production or Helium production, but not both at the same time.  The
correlation is deduced, as far as I know.

>Are you willing to make all these assumptions as well?

I think the possibility of temperature dependent carbon uptake of He in
some of the catalysts is sufficient to justify the effort to add a
stirrer to the cells to eliminate both the calorimetry effects and the
possible helium scrubbing effect of convection known to be present in at
least some D2 cells and but not in the same cells loaded with H2, based
on Scott Little's experiments.  The cells are stainless steel, so a
magnetic stirrer might be used.  It might require attaching a fan blade
to adapt to the gas environment.  This is not a very big effort.  An
alternative is to do He uptake studies the various catalysts, which
would take far more time, I think.

It seems to me to be unacceptable to simply assume a specific catalyst
can not hold helium.

Regards,   Horace Heffner

Subject: Re: debate on Case cell He artifact 6.15.99
 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 12:11:46 -0700
 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
        Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:11:45 -0600
        From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
    Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
 Organization: Energy K System
          To:  vortex-l eskimo.com
  
Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 9:30 AM 6/16/99, Edmund Storms wrote:
> >Horace Heffner wrote:
> >
> >> [snip]
> >> >How much proof does one need???
> >> >
> >> >Ed Storms
>
>
> Yes, there is a lot of data out there, but not much in the way of
> widespread and precisely replicated experiments.  Such will probably
> require manufacture and sale of an affordable kit, so any small
> University can afford to do the experiment.  Mass spectrometry or
> other difficult analyses, if required, can be done by independent
> labs, with control being provided by the experimenter submitting blind
> samples.

Granted, many of the experiments are not replications but explorations.
However, a significant number of replications have been done.  For
example, I duplicated heat production using the same batch of palladium
that Takahashi found to produce energy.  McKubre used active material
from Pons and Fleischmann to duplicate the claims.  Each of these
studies used different calorimetry but the same material. Many
individuals have duplicated the effect when the same batch of palladium
was used.  It is obvious that we have a materials problem which will
not be solved by attempts to replicate using random samples. A kit is
being attempted but it awaits production of material which is
completely reproducible.  This is not an easy problem to solve
especially with very limited funding.

When the heat effect has been produced, certain patterns have been seen
as well. These include the need to apply a critical current and the need
to achieve a critical composition.  These patterns are completely
consistent between all studies who took the trouble to make the
necessary measurements.  I defy a skeptic to explain these patterns as
chance or error without looking completely insane.

>
> While we are at it, I think the carbon itself provides a likely
> suspect for a non-nuclear explanation of the Helium results.  Carbon,
> or carbon exposed to hydrogen gas, may be capable of holding helium
> and gradually releasing it at higher temperatures.  A hydrogen gas
> of a sufficient velocity might even provide a kind of scrubbing
> effect.  The explanation for the difference between D2 and H2 is that
> convection cells tend to form in the D2 environment, which scrubs the
> helium from the carbon once it is hot.  D2 might also be more
> effective due to its heavier molecular weight. Differing catalysts
> might have differing affinities for helium in the experiment
> temperature range.  The obtained results require uptake at a low
> temperature and slow outgassing at a higher temperature, but only
> in a scrubbing environment.  A control experiment could involve
> dissolving the Pd out of the catalyst and running with carbon only.
> Exposing the carbon to an acid might change the carbon though,
> purging it of helium.  A better idea for a control experiment might
> be to use the same catalyst as before, but include a fan inside both
> the H2 and D2 cells.  If this hypothesis is correct, then the H2 cell
> will outgas helium at a similar rate to the D2 cell, or at least at an
> improved and hopefully detectable rate.  It also appears the
> experiment run times should be longer, to see if there is a tailing
> off of He production, or a slow rate of production in the H2 cell.

For this to be a plausible explanation we would also have to assume
that charcoal can absorb helium from the air at room temperature, that
the amount of helium is very nonuniform within a batch of granules, that
only deuterium has the ability to remove this helium, and the removal
rate is linear with time.  In addition, we would have to assume that
the helium was only produced when anomalous energy was produced, and
then in amounts which are consistent with 24 MeV.  Are you willing to
make all these assumptions as well?

Ed Storms

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: HEAVYWATERGATE
Date: 17 Jun 1999 05:26:01 GMT
From: schultr gefen.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz)
Reply-To: correct address in .sigfile
Organization: Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel.
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
References: <37664CCB.B7BCC123 eskimo.com>
<7k5l05$gsk$1 cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <37668386.457BB2BE@eskimo.com>
<7k8dra$htq$2 cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <3767E886.D6462BD6@eskimo.com>

Steve La Joie (lajoie eskimo.com) wrote:
: Richard Schultz wrote:

: > If the leak were small enough, gas motion through it would be
: > diffusive rather than laminar. 

: Diffusive? The opposite of laminar flow is turbulent,
: and that would still prevent He contamination.  

Wrong again.  "Turbulent" flow is flow when the Reynolds number is >2200
or so.  With R < 1200, the nature of the flow will depend on the
relationship between the mean free path of the gas to the diameter of
the orifice.  If the mean free path is very small relative to the
diameter of the orifice, then the flow is "laminar."  If the mean free
path is of similar dimensions to that of the orifice, then the flow
isn't viscous, but molecular.  And at this point, diffusion is more
important than viscous flow would be -- the molecule can get through
the hole before it interacts with a molecule going in the other
direction.  Under conditions of viscous flow, as you say, the He
atom would be caught in the stream of H2 molecules flowing the other
way.

: Diffusion is something completely different. It can
: happen through a barrier. Since there was no diffusion
: in the control, and the experiment was made of the same
: identical stuff, it is unlikely to be a diffusion 
: process.

I gave you a detailed explanation of how there could be a slow leak
in the vacuum fittings of one cell but not the other.  What part of
that explanation did you fail to understand?  The two cells were *not*
made of the "same identical stuff" -- they had separate fittings.

: > If you've ever used Swagelok fittings
: > (or their equivalents), you would know that eventually, they start
: > leaking, mainly because it's almost impossible to resist the human
: > urge to overtighten them so that the ferrule no longer makes a good
: > seal against the back of the nut.  You'll notice that he claimed to
: > have evacuated the chambers "to vacuum" but he doesn't say how good
: > a vacuum was acheived nor how he measured it.  Also note that the
: > He level rose over a period of weeks.

: So, your theory is that the He concentration in the lab air went 
: really high shortly after he started the experiment, and then 
: leaked from a 1 atm environment into a 3.4 atm environment at 
: 200 C and got to double the level it was in the outside air. 
: And the leak didn't appear until day 3.

: It was Maxwell's demon who did it!

Speaking of straw men.  That is not my theory, and I'm frankly getting
tired of repeating it over and over to someone who is obviously too
stupid to understand it.  I'm sorry that you don't like being called
names, but if you want me to stop calling you an idiot, you should stop
acting like an idiot.

In any case, your statement that "the leak didn't appear until day 3"
is a total misrepresentation of George's results.  The first He
measurements were made on days 1, 2, and 5.  On days 1 and 2, the
He level (whatever it was) was less than or equal to the detection
limit.
On day 5, there was a detectable amount.  That doesn't say anything
about
when the leak started -- only that the amount of He present didn't 
rise above the detection limit immediately.

: > : And the level increased to 11 ppm?

: > Yawn.  We've been through this how many times?  We don't know what
the
: > level was because he normalized to some arbitrary and possibly
incorrect
: > standard; because we don't know what fraction of the He made it
through
: > his cold trap; and because his calculation of the number of He atoms
: > present at 11 ppm was not correct.

: He screwed up every single time on the experimental vessel, and
: got it right every time on the control, huh? Amazing. I figure,
: given such a 50/50 chance of screw up, he would have something like
: a one in 200 million chance of doing that. And go figure screwing
: up the measurement so it increased each and every day

How many times do I have to tell you *he probably screwed up every
step of his experiment* and that by coincidence (cancellation of
errors, a leak in one cell but not in the other, wishful thinking
in his data analysis) one cell gave an apparently positive result
and one gave an apparently negative result before you start responding
to what I actually said instead of some fictitious invention of
your own?

: I agree with your calculation, (just checked it myself). 1.5 ppm is
: the maximum concentration you're going to get from a leak with the
: ambient air concentration of 5.22 ppm. 

Actually, the maximum concentration will be 2.7 ppm.  I did the original
calculation under the assumption that he loaded the cell to 3.4 atm
at room temperature.  In fact, he pressurized the cell when it was 
already at 200 C.

: Which doesn't explain the measured 11 ppm they got at the end of the
: experiment. 

If they measured it incorrectly, then there's no problem.  Since you
agree he can't calculate the number of atoms in 1.5 ppm, why is it
so hard to imagine that he can't calculate the number of atoms 
in 11 ppm?

: And this would require the assumption that the "leak" is diffusive. 
: Could happen. Helium does diffuse into some strange stuff. There's 
: no real hole in most rubber helium filled balloons, for example. It
: diffuses through the rubber. Of course, the control vessel was made 
: out of the same stuff used to make the experiment vessel, so a
diffusive 
: "leak" in one should result in a diffusive leak in the other. 
  
I see you're really trying for that spot as "Illiteracy Council
Poster Child."  Go back and reread my paragraph above about the Swagelok
fittings.  If the leak was through a fitting, it could easily have been
in one cell and not in the other. 

: > If you had ever actually worked with Swagelok, you would know that
the
: > idea of a very small leak in one vessel but not in another is not
: > unreasonable at all.  One of the main uses of acetone in my grad
school
: > days was to use it to track down which individual Swagelok connector
: > was leaking.

: What I mean is, this and all the other assumptions you
: are making, taken together, are unlikely. 

So far, I have only made one assumption:  Russ George is not competent
to do the experiment he set out to do.  I have given clear evidence for
that assumption being a good one.  All the other stuff is just 
speculation about the kinds of mistakes an incompetent might have 
made.  I am going to type this in one last time, very slowly, so
that you might get it (but I doubt it):

	We

	can

	NOT

	know 

	for

	sure 

	what

	the 

	source 

	of 

	error

	was.

This is because George left out so many details of his experimental
setup and procedure that people who weren't there can only speculate
based on their experiences with similar experiments.

: And any kind of leak you get with a swagelok is going to be
: turbulent or laminar, but not diffusive. Other gasses besides
: He are going to leak out and the end result is that He will
: not roll uphill; not in any great numbers, anyway.
  
Wrong.

: > Why do you keep insisting that he measured "normal levels of He"? 

: Cause he said he found the level from "prior work" and by comparison 
: to calibrated gas samples. Looks to me like he measured it.

Why doesn't he reference that prior work?  Who did the prior work,
when, and how?  What "calibrated gas samples" did he use?  Why did he
leave out all of these details?  

: > Why don't you just read his paper and see what he actually did? 

: That's how I found out he used calibrated gas samples and measured
: it in prior work. 

What sort of calibrated gas samples did he use?  What was the source
of these samples, how were they calibrated, and what were the components
of the gases in these samples?  Where was the prior work carried out,
and by whom?  What is "consistent with"?  Within 10%?  A factor of five?
If George wants me to believe that his original measurement
was done competently, then he should provide all of these details so 
that we know.  

: > Why do you ignore the fact that He levels can vary from day to day? 

: I assume the atmosphere is well mixed. Ficks law and all.

Once again showing your total ignorance.  In the atmosphere, convection
will carry the He from lab to lab much more efficiently than diffusion
will.  And that is precisely why helium levels in a laboratory can
vary by significant amounts from day to day, and why George should 
have measured the helium in the air *every day* during his experiment.

-----
Richard Schultz                              schultr mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
". . .Mr Schutz [sic] acts like a functional electro-terrorist who 
impeads [sic] scientific communications with his too oft-silliness."
   -- Mitchell Swartz, sci.physics.fusion article
<EEI1oz.43q world.std.com>

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Murray: Heffner: Storms: C as He source in Case cell 6.16.99
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>June 16, 1999  Hello,  Horace Heffner [ hheffner mtaonline.net ] has
>aired an interesting, obvious possibly that the porous C briquets,
>~10 gm, plated with a thin film of .04 gm Pd [0.4%], could be the source
>or storage sink of the He released in the Case cell from 28 days
>at ~3.4 atm of D2 at 200-210 deg C in a 50 cc stainless steel cell.
>A control cell with H2 showed no He.
>
>The measured He was 5E16 atoms

***{I know very little about this experiment and less about mass
spectrographs, but I gleaned from the discussion of the mass peak at 6 on
Scott's mass spectrograph a few weeks ago, that there did not appear to be
a clear way to distinguish between atomic and molecular species with that
instrument, when the masses and charges were the same. I wonder, therefore,
if the He was detected in that way--i.e., with a mass spectrograph--and, if
it was, I wonder how such an instrument would tell the difference between a
charged D2 molecule and an equally charged He atom, since they would have
virtually the same mass and would deflect equally in an electric field.
What is the chance that the two species could be confused? After all, an He
that lost one electron and a D2 molecule that lost one electron would be
deflected to the same spot on the analyzer plate, right? If so, then we
would not need exotic theories about the desorption of He to account for
why the He shows up in the D2 runs but not in the H2 runs, since the masses
would not match in the H2 runs. (Don't get tense, Jed. It's just a thought.
:-)  --Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 00:12:59 1999
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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Re Scott's result,

>First, we have definite evidence of "excess dissociation".  The cell
>produced about 2.5 times more H2 and O2 gas than expected from the
>average
>cell current. An explanation of this phenomenon is desired.  

I will venture a hypothesis. The gas bubble around the electrode is mainly
H2O vapor. Other components are minor. The electrical discharge through
this gas makes ions, electrons, H atoms and a host of other species, as
Fred and Mitchell pointed out. There is certainly enough energy input to
make extra H2 and O2, but why do they bubble up and out of the electrolyte
instead of recombining (burning) in the gas/discharge region? In any gas
discharge of a few Amp at atmospheric pressure the concentrations of ions
and other new species are really very small. Furthermore, the water vapor
molecule attaches (binds to) many (most?) of these species, diminishing
their chemical activity. Therefore, there should be a good probability that
some of the dissociated species do not immediately recombine in the gas,
but reach the water surface, enter it and become part of the aqueous
solution. These solvated species eventually react, some into H2O, but also
some into H2 and others into O2. The latter two eventually bubble out of
solution and are the excess H2 and O2.
===
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 01:29:57 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Bitter coils vs other ideas
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Here's another idea for a Brown's gas generator:  use an electrolyte which
contains a large amount of fine metal particles, say stainless steel,
maintained in suspension by agitation.  These particles should act like
plates in a multi-stage BG generator, generating H2 on one side and O2 on
the other.  Once gas bubbles form, the metal particle will rise to the top,
where the gas can be removed by running the particle through a wringer, or
maybe a centrifuge, or just jostling it.  If a high enough frequency is
used, the cell can be driven capacitively through the cell sides,
eliminating the need for any cell plates, or cell plate corrosion, at all.
The main difficulty might be obtaining the right sized particles of desired
material.  Another difficulty is that a high cell voltage might be
required, lowering the current.  However, the same current would go through
lots of particles, so the energy should work out equivalently. Construction
should be greatly simplified by this method.  Maintenace would also be
greatly simplified, by eliminating the need to cut stainless plates, and to
take the cell apart to replace plates.  Using filters, it should be
possible to maintain the particle quality, even while in operation.  This
generator would be exceedingly compact, due to the incredible equivalent
number of plates and the very minimal equivalent plate separation.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 01:30:00 1999
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Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 00:32:22 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: debate on Case cell He artifact  6.15.99
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At 7:37 PM 6/16/99, Edmund Storms wrote:
[snip]
>  ... only certain samples out of the
>same batch of catalyst work.  Presumably if the He concentration were uniform,
>all samples would show He production. On the other hand, failure to initiate a
>nuclear reaction could result from failure to remove all impurities from the
>surface in the failed runs.  This purification process is known to be important
>and tricky.


The following items might be of importance:

(1)  Presence of nanotubes in the carbon
(2)  Presence of graphite in the carbon
(3)  Age of the catalyst
(4)  Possible presence of He contamination in selected
      grains in the catalyst batch

It is now well known that nanotubes can store vast amounts of hydrogen.
Nanotubes come in various sizes.  Possibly they can store vast quantities
of helium too. A catalyst made in a hot oxygen free environment might form
nanotubes.  The use of inert gasses in the process of forming the catalyst,
e.g. argon, might be a possible source of contamaination.  The history and
method of catalyst formation is very important, and making assumptions
about these items regarding any specifc quantity of a specific batch of a
specific catalyst is less than ideal.  Similarly, layered graphite or
graphite fragments may have a special ability to hold helium.

The age of the catalyst is important because He can be deposited in the
catalyst from cosmic rays hitting most any nucleus and knocking lose alpha
particles.

If a batch is formed by insufficiently mixing together two other partial
batches, then mixed results would be expected, especially if one batch were
contaminated with extra helium.

It seems useful that measurement of and controls for helium uptake in the
catalyst are required.



>Unless the concentration of He was very high in carbon, the loss rate
>should show
>a steady drop with time.  The loss rate surely would be dependent on the
>diffusion distance, which would increase, and on the remaining concentration,
>which would decrease. If the helium were being supplied from adsorbed He on the
>surface, the rate should drop rapidly.

If the helium is supplied from a powerful storage mechanism, like
nanotubes, the outgassing might look linear for a long time.


>No, McKubre has measured both [power and He production] at the same time.
>He can calculate power
>production two different ways, both of which agree with each other and with the
>He release rate.  Of course, he as well as the rest of us would like to
>see more
>exact calorimetry.  Additional experiments are underway to solve this
>requirement.


I don't recall, is McKubre's paper avaiable online somewhere?


[snip]
>We have three question: Is the He real, is the anomalous power real, and are
>these observations part of a more general pattern which is caused by a nuclear
>reaction?

You are preaching to the choir on this. I think there is now so much smoke
there is almost no doubt there is fire somewhere in the woods.


>I suggest a proper analysis needs to address each question rather than
>just trying to explain the He in this one experiment.


This approach is way beyond the scope of my comments.  I think this forum
is a useful place for brainstorming and possibly making experiments more
solid, as well as the other side of brainstorming, which is to locate bad
ideas (or data) and sift them out as efficiently as possible.  It is a
useful place to mull over what our individual next experiments might be.
The analysis you are suggesting is of the field in general, which leads to
a true believer vs true skeptic debate.  I suspect many of us here would
have not much new to say on that, having fairly well polarised our
positions.  You and I in particular might not have not much to discuss,
since I suspect we are close to the same position.

The Case cell strikes me as astonishingly different from other experiments
because the conditions are almost ambient.  There is very little in the way
of energy input.  It is in a class by itself, even substantially distanced
from Arata.  I think it deserves special scrutiny, especially in light of
Scott Little's results.


>I suggest that the
>probability of error or chance causing all of these experiments to show a
>pattern
>consistent with a nuclear source is approaching zero.  Even if the McKubre work
>were the only observation, as skeptics like to assume, I would admit a greater
>probability for error or chance, but still not large.


Could be, but it still seems to me the catalyst, especially the carbon,
warrants significant additional scrutiny before declaring victory.  It is
known that the difference in convection patterns between D2 and H2 can
cause calorimetry problems.  If a scrubbing effect exists, the cell withthe
most convection should scrub out the most helium.  Scott Little's
experiemtn showed no evidence of convection in the H2 cell, if I recall
correctly.  For McKubre to declare convection in the two types of cells
identical, he would have to make a quantitative measurement of the
convection all over the cell, which is not feasible.  A fan will break up
convection patterns, and make results between two differing gasses in the
same cell comparible.  This seems like a minimum approach.  Detailed
studies of the catalyst helium uptake capabilities at various temperatures
and gas velocities, and initial helium content, might also be worthwhile.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 03:42:56 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC:  Thermochemical Exercise?
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To: Vortex

With a combination of Electrolysis-Photolysis of Water, and
Oxidation-Sputtering, and reaction of the WOx from the Tungsten Cathode with
the K2CO3 to form K2WOx Tungstates, it is small wonder that things are as
complicated as Jed states.  :-)

Rough calculation of the heats involved, shows that moderate sputtering of
the W cathode will give an "OU" heat output of  5 to 30 watts/milligram of
Tungsten Oxidized.

A simple test for the water-soluble tungstates is precipitation of insoluble
Tungstic Acid (H2WOx) using an acid such as HCl.

As far as "OU" is concerned, it would be much simpler to react W in molten
KOH or K2CO3 which will form the alkali tungstates, and concurrently give
off  H2, or H2 + COx, respectively.

Regards,    Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 06:05:49 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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At 23:47 6/16/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>***{My assumption has been that your computation of Pout at a given instant
>was based solely on the measured rate of heat output of your cell, as
>determined by your calorimeter.

That is correct.

>On your website, you describe your
>recombiner as "external," which I took to mean "outside of the
>calorimeter.")

Correct.

>If so, then the total energy output of your cell would be
>the sum of (a) INT(0,T) Pout, where T is the elapsed time, (b) the energy
>required for electrolytic splitting of H2O, (c) the energy required for uv
>splitting of H2O, and (d) the energy required to drive the reaction W +
>4H2O --> H2WO4 + 3H2. Given that what you are calling Pout only measures
>the rate of heat output of the cell, and given your statement that Pin =
>Pout for this run, it seems to follow that when (b), (c), and (d) are taken
>into account, you ought to go "over unity."

As mentioned in my Run 6 report, when I count the heat dissipated in the
external recombiner, I do go o-u, by about 2 watts out of 120.

>Since I do not believe you are,
>in fact, "over unity," it seems to me that you must have undermeasured the
>input power.

A reasonable assumption.  In this case then, my power meter is reading only
120 when it should read 122....a 1.6% error.

>Thus I am inclined to conclude that your power meter is
>failing to account for current spikes that fall between samples--a failing
>which, I might add, is very common in situations such as this, where jagged
>current waveforms are involved. Since you seem to disagree with this
>analysis, I find myself curious as to precisely where you think my error
>lies.

It appeared to me that you were saying that the "2.5 times more gas than
expected" was due to undermeasurement of the average current.  If that were
true...and the actual average current was 2.5 times higher than my power
meter thinks it is...the actual input power would also be 2.5 times higher
than reported (remember, it's constant voltage), which would result in my
Pout being 250% higher than the reported Pin.  The actual errors are tiny
compared to this.  When I said, "That doesn't wash", I meant that
undermeasurement of the average current cannot possibly explain my "2.5
times more gas" problem.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 06:07:39 1999
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Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 07:56:44 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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At 00:09 6/17/99 -0700, Michael Schaffer wrote:

>The electrical discharge through
>this gas makes ions, electrons, H atoms and a host of other species....

>some of the dissociated species do not immediately recombine in the gas,
>but reach the water surface, enter it and become part of the aqueous
>solution.

Very reasonable, Michael.  Direct dissocation of the H2O in the arc and
subsequent dissolution of the products in the very nearby water, which is
likely to be constantly "flapping" against the surface of the cathode and
then rebounding.  At least the rumbling sound from the cell suggests
something like that to me.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 06:44:40 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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At 08:04 AM 6/17/99 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>At 23:47 6/16/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>Since I do not believe you are,
>>in fact, "over unity," it seems to me that you must have undermeasured the
>>input power.
>
>A reasonable assumption.  In this case then, my power meter is reading only
>120 when it should read 122....a 1.6% error.



   Does this mean that you measured a 1.6% excess power 
in some of the measurements, despite your graph? 



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Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 09:55:04 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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>At 23:47 6/16/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>***{My assumption has been that your computation of Pout at a given instant
>>was based solely on the measured rate of heat output of your cell, as
>>determined by your calorimeter.
>
>That is correct.
>
>>On your website, you describe your
>>recombiner as "external," which I took to mean "outside of the
>>calorimeter.")
>
>Correct.
>
>>If so, then the total energy output of your cell would be
>>the sum of (a) INT(0,T) Pout dt, where T is the elapsed time, (b) the energy
>>required for electrolytic splitting of H2O, (c) the energy required for uv
>>splitting of H2O, and (d) the energy required to drive the reaction W +
>>4H2O --> H2WO4 + 3H2. Given that what you are calling Pout only measures
>>the rate of heat output of the cell, and given your statement that Pin =
>>Pout for this run, it seems to follow that when (b), (c), and (d) are taken
>>into account, you ought to go "over unity."
>
>As mentioned in my Run 6 report, when I count the heat dissipated in the
>external recombiner, I do go o-u, by about 2 watts out of 120.
>
>>Since I do not believe you are,
>>in fact, "over unity," it seems to me that you must have undermeasured the
>>input power.
>
>A reasonable assumption.  In this case then, my power meter is reading only
>120 when it should read 122....a 1.6% error.
>
>>Thus I am inclined to conclude that your power meter is
>>failing to account for current spikes that fall between samples--a failing
>>which, I might add, is very common in situations such as this, where jagged
>>current waveforms are involved. Since you seem to disagree with this
>>analysis, I find myself curious as to precisely where you think my error
>>lies.
>
>It appeared to me that you were saying that the "2.5 times more gas than
>expected" was due to undermeasurement of the average current.  If that were
>true...and the actual average current was 2.5 times higher than my power
>meter thinks it is...the actual input power would also be 2.5 times higher
>than reported (remember, it's constant voltage), which would result in my
>Pout being 250% higher than the reported Pin.

***{I see. Yes, it would have been reasonable for me to have believed that,
if I had thought it out to that point at the time. In fact, however, my
analysis of your writeup of run 6 took literally the amount of time I spent
typing out the post to which you responded. Thus you leaped ahead of my
thought process in your response. --Mitchell Jones}***

The actual errors are tiny
>compared to this.  When I said, "That doesn't wash", I meant that
>undermeasurement of the average current cannot possibly explain my "2.5
>times more gas" problem.

***{If you will recall, I said that "since Mizuno is probably using
different instruments to measure his input power, the possibility arises
that his meter is missing more spikes than yours, thereby accounting for
all of his 'over unity' results." I wouldn't have said that if I had
thought you were as far "over unity" as Mizuno.

Incidentally, as you move closer and closer to "replication" of Mizuno's
efforts, you should not lose track of the possibility that you may
inadvertently be tuning your apparatus so that a high proportion of current
spikes will fall between the samples taken by your instruments. "Over
unity" in these types of experiments may be *exactly equivalent* to the
input power loss due to unmetered current spikes.

Also, since you brought the matter up, have you made any attempt to
determine what proportion of the cathode emissions are in the uv range or
beyond? If that proportion is very low or zero, then uv dissociation will
itself be low or zero, and you will, in fact, be faced with a large
conundrum.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 08:00:36 1999
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Mitchell Jones writes:

	Power measurement in the early 1950's was in the stone age
	compared to now, and it is very difficult even today, using
	*state of the art instrumentation*, to not undermeasure power
	when dealing with chaotic, high speed variations in resistance
	of the sort that we see in these cells.

There is no evidence for that. Nobody has seen any indication that these
reactions are particularly high speed or difficult to measure. In the
control experiments, when voltage is deliberately set above or below the
critical levels, input power and output energy balance closely. There is no
reason to think that input is easier to measure or less chaotic at these
higher or lower settings. Furthermore, in the 1940s oscilloscopes, high
speed cameras and other precision instruments were fast enough to develop
atom bombs, radar, proximity fuses and many other high speed devices. In
1943 they took step by step photos of implosions. In the 1950s quartz
crystal clocks were accurate to one part in 100 million. The first atomic
clock, in 1949, was about an order of magnitude better. (Townes, p. 73). 


	I certainly would not toss Faraday's law into the dumper based
	on their say so.

Nobody is "tossing" Faraday's laws. These processes are not Faradaic
electrochemical decomposition of the electrolyte. Other chemical processes
are occurring.


	You are too emotional about this stuff, Jed. You need to loosen
	up . . .

Gee, I thought my comments were a laff riot. I was responding in the light
hearted, humorous spirit of your comments. I mean, you do not seriously
believe that you can sit there and analyze an experiment you have never
seen or read a formal paper about, and you can contradict people who *did
the experiment for years*. That's a joke, right?


	You know as well as I do that the argument from authority is
	nonsense.

Au contraire, we need more argument from authority in this field, not less.
The authorities are usually right. A PhD electrochemist who spends four
years performing experiments with glow discharge will know far more than
anyone else anywhere in the world. The problem with CF has not been that
authorities and experts are wrong. The problem has been fake authorities:
the self-appointed, tinsel-covered pseudo authorities. I mean people who
know nothing about the experiments and only a little about the relevant
science who go around making idiotic pronouncements. People like Burton
Richter and Mel Schwartz, Nobel laureates in physics. They go around
pontificating about cold fusion and promoting the Taubes book. They think
they are authorities, but if your cornered them at the APS and asked a
dozen questions about the fundamentals of CF, they would not be able to
answer a single one. *I* could run rings around them, and I do not even
have a degree in science. They are like Rabi and Kusch, Nobel laureates who
thought they knew something about masers, and who tried to stop all
research in masers four months before the first prototype began working.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 08:00:41 1999
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Subject: Re: Murray: Heffner: Storms: C as He . . .
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Mitchell Jones writes:

	Scott's mass spectrograph a few weeks ago, that there did not
	appear to be a clear way to distinguish between atomic and
	molecular species with that instrument . . .

Scott's mass spec may not be sensitive enough to separate D2 and He. That
takes an expensive machine.


	. . .  when the masses and charges were the same. I wonder,
	therefore, if the He was detected in that way--i.e., with a mass
	spectrograph--and, if it was, I wonder how such an instrument
	would tell the difference between a charged D2 molecule and an
	equally charged He atom, since they would have virtually the
	same mass and would deflect equally in an electric field.

D2 is 4.02820 amu, He is 4.00260 amu. The mass spec at SRI shows the two
peaks widely separated. There is no overlap with these amounts of mass.
Russ George showed this graph at the APS CF section, as I noted in my
report here.

- Jed

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Scott Little writes:

	Your portrayal of my efforts is incorrect at best. I am in
	frequent contact with Mizuno and that he is eager for my
	experiments to succeed.  As a result of this constructive
	communication, I am measuring everything that Mizuno thinks is
	important for the excess heat effect . . .

Well, since I am not looking over your shoulder I cannot judge how well you
are doing except by what you report here. I am only commenting on the fact
that you seem determined to reinvent techniques and rediscover chemistry
that was described in the peer-reviewed literature 45 years ago. What you
discovering and describing now, in your latest reports, is strictly
chemistry -- nothing to do with CF yet. It is interesting chemistry, and
you have made good progress with it, but a dozen experts worked it out in
detail 45 years ago, so I cannot understand why you are struggling with it.
It is as if I sat down to write a new computer program, and I began by
reinventing ISAM file structures instead of buying an index tool from
TurboPower or reading Wirth. (I did, in fact, once sit down and write and
ISAM file structure when I had no choice, but I took the design from
textbooks by Wirth and N. Graham. I would never try to invent or discover
something which other people have already discovered.)


	. . . and my values are within his "target zone" for excess heat
	production.

That's news to me. You will have to describe that in your final report.


	He has inspected my data and HE DOES NOT KNOW why I don't
	observe excess heat from my cell.

Uh huh. In that case, he isn't doing his homework either. I predict that
neither he nor you will find out unless you make a detailed checklist of
mundane chemical and physical parameters, materials, products like H2O2,
postmortem analysis of the cathode, and so on. That is how CF experiments
are done, and that is why it takes so long. As McKubre put it: ". . . when
we perform our experiments as well as we can, and we perform them with as
nearly ideal materials as we can procure, in as careful a way as we can,
the experiments quite literally do not appear to reproduce. And these are
perfectly mundane observations. This has nothing to do with cold fusion or
excess heat. Mundane things in the deuterium-palladium system are
apparently not reproducing, which means and there are components of our
experiment which are outside of our experimental control."


	There are two possible explanations for this predicament:

	1.  Mizuno's cell does produce excess heat and I am doing the
	experiment wrong.

	2.  Mizuno's cell does not produce excess heat and his results
	are due to a fairly subtle but large calorimetry (which includes
	the input power measurement) error.

	At this point, what probability would you assign to each of
	these?

I cannot assign any probabilities because I do not know enough about your
experiment, or Mizuno's, to judge. Later on, if you use exactly the same
materials, and you reproduce the power curves, and you write a detailed
description of the electrical, physical and chemical system -- and Mizuno
does the same, then perhaps I will be in a position to judge.
Unfortunately, with my limited knowledge of physics and chemistry I fear
that such a detailed description would be over my head. In other words, I
will probably never know why you cannot reproduce the effect. I am not
expert enough. I can guess and make suggestions based on what I know about
failed replications of other CF experiments at places like the NHE.

This much is clear: Whether Mizuno is seeing real heat or an artifact, you
have not replicated him yet. You may run out of gumption before you
succeed. I would! If you do succeed, I expect it will take roughly as long
as it took Ohmori and Mizuno to learn to replicate themselves 70% of the
time -- a year or two.


By the way, you may need to measure the caloric content of the effluent
gas. I think Mizuno should too. There may be more than H2 and O2. I believe
your analysis so far is based on the assumption that only H2, O2 and water
vapor are escaping.

On another subject, regarding the graphs in invisible color which we do not
have, when Mizuno gets back from Osaka I suggest you ask him for the
original spreadsheet data. Graph it yourself.

- Jed

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Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:07:09 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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>At 08:04 AM 6/17/99 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>>At 23:47 6/16/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>>Since I do not believe you are,
>>>in fact, "over unity," it seems to me that you must have undermeasured the
>>>input power.
>>
>>A reasonable assumption.  In this case then, my power meter is reading only
>>120 when it should read 122....a 1.6% error.
>
>
>
>   Does this mean that you measured a 1.6% excess power
>in some of the measurements, despite your graph?

***{Yup: Scott Little is now "over unity," based on his own numbers! :-) Of
course, it would be unfair to hold him to that, since the most reasonable
explanation is that his input power measurements are low due to unmetered
current spikes. That is also the most plausible explanation for Mizuno's
results, in my opinion. --Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 09:36:34 1999
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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>Mitchell Jones writes:
>
>	Power measurement in the early 1950's was in the stone age
>	compared to now, and it is very difficult even today, using
>	*state of the art instrumentation*, to not undermeasure power
>	when dealing with chaotic, high speed variations in resistance
>	of the sort that we see in these cells.
>
>There is no evidence for that. Nobody has seen any indication that these
>reactions are particularly high speed or difficult to measure.

***{I see no reasonable explanation for the formation and maintenance of
the steam cloak around the cathode, other than the occurrence of thousands
of tiny arcs, each of which causes a steam explosion upon striking the
liquid electrolyte, thereby replacing the steam that is constantly
re-condensing or being vented where the cathode exits the water. Each such
arc is, in fact, a high speed spike in the current flow; and, when such a
spike falls between samples taken by the power meter, it becomes an
increment to an "over unity" result. If you have some way to explain the
maintenance of the steam cloak that does not involve the occurrence of
thousands of tiny arcs, let's hear it. Otherwise, it is *you* who has no
evidence for his position, not I. --Mitchell Jones}***

In the
>control experiments, when voltage is deliberately set above or below the
>critical levels, input power and output energy balance closely. There is no
>reason to think that input is easier to measure or less chaotic at these
>higher or lower settings.

***{It may well be that the process of finding the "critical level" is
analogous to the process of tuning a radio to a particular frequency: the
critical level may be simply be settings which maximize the number of
current spikes that fall between samples. --Mitchell Jones}***

Furthermore, in the 1940s oscilloscopes, high
>speed cameras and other precision instruments were fast enough to develop
>atom bombs, radar, proximity fuses and many other high speed devices. In
>1943 they took step by step photos of implosions. In the 1950s quartz
>crystal clocks were accurate to one part in 100 million. The first atomic
>clock, in 1949, was about an order of magnitude better. (Townes, p. 73).
>
>
>	I certainly would not toss Faraday's law into the dumper based
>	on their say so.
>
>Nobody is "tossing" Faraday's laws. These processes are not Faradaic
>electrochemical decomposition of the electrolyte. Other chemical processes
>are occurring.

***{Actually, the main other process is physical--to wit: the uv
dissociation of H2O. Before Fred Sparber pointed that out, however, you
appeared ready to toss Faraday's 2nd law into the dumper, based merely on
the say-so of some guys that most of us had never heard of. :-) --MJ}***

>
>
>	You are too emotional about this stuff, Jed. You need to loosen
>	up . . .
>
>Gee, I thought my comments were a laff riot. I was responding in the light
>hearted, humorous spirit of your comments. I mean, you do not seriously
>believe that you can sit there and analyze an experiment you have never
>seen or read a formal paper about, and you can contradict people who *did
>the experiment for years*. That's a joke, right?

***{The argument from authority again. Duh. No, Jed: it isn't a joke. In my
view, a man's qualifications to state an opinion are simply the reasons he
has for that opinion. Thus when I ask someone for his reasons, I am asking
for the only qualifications I care about. That means I will accept a
bootblack's explanation of an experiment if he can put forth a solid
argument to support it, and it means I will reject the explanation of the
man who actually did the experiment if he cannot. In such situations,
nothing matters to me other than the facts and the logical implications of
the facts. When assessing a person's opinion, I don't care how many degrees
he has, or about his experience, or how loud he shouts, or how old he is,
or what color his skin happens to be, or what his views may be on other
issues, or whether he is the sort of person I would invite over for dinner,
or whether his opinion does or does not agree with the majority. I simply
search for the best argument I can find, relative to each particular issue,
and treat that argument as the truth until a better argument comes along.
--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>	You know as well as I do that the argument from authority is
>	nonsense.
>
>Au contraire, we need more argument from authority in this field, not less.
>The authorities are usually right. A PhD electrochemist who spends four
>years performing experiments with glow discharge will know far more than
>anyone else anywhere in the world. The problem with CF has not been that
>authorities and experts are wrong. The problem has been fake authorities:
>the self-appointed, tinsel-covered pseudo authorities.

***{True enough, but the only way to separate the real authorities from the
fake authorities is to do what I do: ignore the credentials and accept the
opinions that are butressed by the strongest arguments. --Mitchell Jones}***

I mean people who
>know nothing about the experiments and only a little about the relevant
>science who go around making idiotic pronouncements. People like Burton
>Richter and Mel Schwartz, Nobel laureates in physics. They go around
>pontificating about cold fusion and promoting the Taubes book. They think
>they are authorities, but if your cornered them at the APS and asked a
>dozen questions about the fundamentals of CF, they would not be able to
>answer a single one.

***{Yup: and when you asked those questions you would be focused on their
reasons for their opinions, rather than on their credentials. --MJ}***

*I* could run rings around them, and I do not even
>have a degree in science. They are like Rabi and Kusch, Nobel laureates who
>thought they knew something about masers, and who tried to stop all
>research in masers four months before the first prototype began working.

***{Yup: the fake authorities are everywhere. To separate them from the
real authorities, it is necessary to focus on the reasons which they have
for their opinions, rather than on their credentials or other
irrelevancies. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>- Jed

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Subject: Re: HEAVYWATERGATE
        Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:00:21 +0200
       From:  Dieter Britz <db kemi.aau.dk>
 Organization: University of Aarhus, Department of Computer Science
(DAIMI)  Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
 
On Wed, 16 Jun 1999, Steve La Joie wrote:

> Reading it again, I see your concern. But it does say 
> 
> "The first and third samples are of lab air at ~20 torr,
> that is taken to be approximately 5.22 ppm 4He based on 
> earlier work and confirmed by the use of calibrated gas 
> standards."
> 
> Saying "just assumed" is overstating it. It depends on what
> the earlier work was. It also states that the 5.22 ppm was
> confirmed by the use of calibrated gas standards. I take
> that to mean he compared the He peak his mass spec produced
> from lab air against the peak produced by a calibrated gas
> standard, and "confirmed" it was at 5.22 ppm. 
> 
> All in all, it seems he measured it. 

Coming part way towards you, we can maybe allow that he got a signal
that might have been some multiple of that measured in the air. That
might be good news - if the ambient he stays constant. Better to
check for that though, or you can't be sure.

> It could have been better, but I think he sufficently covered 
> the contamination issue. HOW does it get into the vessel? It's 
> pressurized. Just that fact alone is probably why he didn't bother

Not for me to explain but for him to convincingly rule out. Pressure
itself, btw, is no barrier to diffusion. Imagine the cracks and leaks
as a membrane permeable to He, with different pressures on the two
sides. If the partial pressure of helium is different on the two sides,
helium will diffuse so as to equalise the partial pressures. As I say,
however, it is true that if the pressure inside is greater, it would
probably cause a "wind" going out, which would dominate transport of
He. We don't know; and still, it's up to George to rule out these
effects. 

> to check He levels througout the duration of the experiment. 
> It would only be necessary to check background He when the experiment
> began - that's when the vessel was exposed to air. 

Exactly not, see above.

> 
> Why did the contamination not show up in the first few days? 
> How did the contamination survive the flush, hid the first few
> days, and then appear at higher than normal levels?

Good point; I don't know. Remember, I am not saying that this report
rules out cold fusion; I am saying that it does not convincingly
prove it.

> At this point his Pd is loaded with H. If I understand this
> hydride property right, he has to increase the temperature of
> the Pd to unload it. Some unloading should have occured when
> the pressure was low, but it took days to load.

The Pd was in the form of tiny particles, wasn't it? They would
probably load up rather quickly. You can get a rough estimate of how
quickly by the formula delta = SQRT(pi*D*t), where delta is the
diffusion layer thickness, make that half a particle diameter,
whatever that was on average. Some make that SQRT(2*D*t), doesn't
matter. Hydrogen diffuses rather quickly through Pd. So...

> I don't think that would have worked, in that cell, 
> the deuterium was already loaded into the Pd. He would
> have had to increase the temperature. Anyone familiar
> with van't Hoff's equation care to illuminate this for
> me? I'm fuzzy on this pressure thing.

You don't need van't Hoff, Fick has the answer. If you replace D2 with
H2 (or vice versa), the gas will exchange in about the same time as
loading takes. There is no need to depressurise the vessel etc.

You assume more than George probably would, in saying that the reaction
takes place inside the Pd. This is contentious too. It always seemed to
me that, if there be CNF, it is likely to happen at or near the Pd
surface. Some enthusiasts agree with me there, some don't. My friend
Peter Glueck takes CNF to be a kind of surface catalysed reaction. Who
knows? If it takes place at all.

I am glad we are actually arguing science. This is the strength of
news groups.

-- Dieter Britz alias db kemi.aau.dk;  http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db
*** Echelon, bomb, sneakers, GRU: swamp the snoops with trivia! ***

Subject: Re: HEAVYWATERGATE
        Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:19:27 +0200
       From:  Dieter Britz <db kemi.aau.dk>
 Organization: University of Aarhus, Department of Computer Science
(DAIMI)   Newsgroups:  sci.physics.fusion
 
On Wed, 16 Jun 1999, Mitchell Jones wrote:

> ***{Your above comment was posted on vortex by Rich Murray, who was
> then taken to the woodshed by Jed Rothwell, who said that at his APS
> lecture, McKubre stated that they measured ambient helium frequently,
> and always found it to be at 5.22 ppm. Do you contend that this is
> incorrect? If so, on what evidence? --Mitchell Jones}

Then they should have said so in the "paper". Are we, btw, talking about
the same report? We were talking about Russ George's report here, not
McKubre's. I guess there is some interaction there though.

This reminds me of the running argument I have had with Rothwell, who
insists that F&P always use more than one thermistor to measure cell
temperatures; he is backed up by Mel Miles, who also assures him (and
me) that this is so. All this is hear-say; whereas in every single
paper F&P publish, they show a Fig. with just one thermistor. I have
pointed out that in a paper, one puts one's best foot forward, provides
all relevant details etc. So it is here. If George had monitored ambient
He at intervals, he should have said so in the report. Any scientist
worth his salt would. Maybe he will, if he ever publishes this thing as
a paper in a real journal.

For the record: When I use the word "hear-say", I am emphatically not
calling anyone a liar (Rothie is quick to draw that conclusion). I am
just making a statement about how science works, and it does not work on
the say-so of so&so whom I don't believe to be a liar etc.

> ***{Given that ambient helium was repeatedly measured at 5.22 ppm, the
> only remaining try to shoot down this experiment would be to claim
> that the helium was desorbed from some material in the experimental
> apparatus. Barring that, the case looks pretty strong to me.
> --Mitchell Jones}

That's OK, we all have different criteria for what we accept as
plausible. That is also how science works.

Let's please keep up this amicable discussion.

-- Dieter Britz alias db kemi.aau.dk;  http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db
*** Echelon, bomb, sneakers, GRU: swamp the snoops with trivia! ***

Subject: Re: HEAVYWATERGATE
        Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 13:48:51 GMT
       From:  Steve La Joie <lajoie eskimo.com>
 Organization: Eskimo North For-Ever
 Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
 
Ian Johnston wrote:
> 
> Mitchell Jones (mjones jump.net) wrote:
> 
> : ***{Your above comment was posted on vortex by Rich Murray, who was
> : then taken to the woodshed by Jed Rothwell, who said that at his APS
> : lecture, McKubre stated that they measured ambient helium
> : frequently, and always found it to be at 5.22 ppm. Do you contend
> : that this is incorrect? If so, on what evidence? --Mitchell Jones}
> 
> Maybe I'm a little slow on the uptake, by what relevance do McKubre's
> measurements have for George's experimental protocol?

I'm not Mitchell Jones, but this from the George paper:
"Cooperating with Case by phone George designed new experiments 
to be operated within a laboratory provided by SRI International 
with the active participation of SRI scientists Fran Tanzella 
and Mike McKubre."

I take it that McKubre was informed of the ambient level of
He in the lab atmosphere, when taken with Michell's quote
of McKubre above, and that it was measured to be 5.22 ppm
throughout the experiment.

If I got that right, and I'm pretty sure I did, it blows
Richard's diffusion argument out of the water. 
 
> And what a shame that Jed doesn't feel able to post to
> sci.physics.fusion any more...

Given the abusive nature of the post in rebuttal to his work
and towards cold fusion in general, why would he? We are not
talking about a receptive or objective audience here.

> Ian

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 09:38:39 1999
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Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:28:51 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Murray: Heffner: Storms: C as He . . .
Resent-Message-ID: <"oL-8e.0.ge4._DIQt" mx1>
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>Mitchell Jones writes:
>
>	Scott's mass spectrograph a few weeks ago, that there did not
>	appear to be a clear way to distinguish between atomic and
>	molecular species with that instrument . . .
>
>Scott's mass spec may not be sensitive enough to separate D2 and He. That
>takes an expensive machine.
>
>
>	. . .  when the masses and charges were the same. I wonder,
>	therefore, if the He was detected in that way--i.e., with a mass
>	spectrograph--and, if it was, I wonder how such an instrument
>	would tell the difference between a charged D2 molecule and an
>	equally charged He atom, since they would have virtually the
>	same mass and would deflect equally in an electric field.
>
>D2 is 4.02820 amu, He is 4.00260 amu. The mass spec at SRI shows the two
>peaks widely separated. There is no overlap with these amounts of mass.
>Russ George showed this graph at the APS CF section, as I noted in my
>report here.
>
>- Jed

***{Good answer. Thanks. --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 09:48:21 1999
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Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:46:54 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Murray: Heffner: Storms: C as He . . .
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At 09:47 6/17/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Scott's mass spec may not be sensitive enough to separate D2 and He. That
>takes an expensive machine.

Indeed my mass spectrometer cannot even begin to hope to separate those
two.  4He is at mass 4.0026 and D2 is at 4.0282, .025 AMU away.  My
spectrometer has FWHM of about 1 AMU....40 times worse than what would
barely do the job.  From what I've heard from McKubre, his FWHM is
something like .005 AMU...i.e. the two peaks are cleanly separated with a
little flat baseline between them.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 09:50:29 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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At 10:58 AM 6/17/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:
[snip]
>There is no
>reason to think that input is easier to measure or less chaotic at these
>higher or lower settings.

If a cell is making RF emissions then that alone is sufficient for concern
of the response time of the power measurment.  Having a fast oscilloscope
is not sufficient to account for non-repetitive waveforms, because it is
necessary to achieve a fast precise accumulation of the instantaneous I*V.

FOOD FOR THOUGHT:

BTW, the company that makes the power meter Scott is using also makes a
less expensive meter that does an analog I*V and then integrates that
instantaneous power. Such a meter should be much more accurate when
nonsynchronized power spikes occur.

One possibility for measuring the fast spikes is to separate them out of
the signal using a filter, and then making an independent estimate of the
power in the high bandwidth.

The best approach might be to simply place large inductors inside the
calorimeter in both of the input power leads.  This will eliminate any fast
spikes outside the calorimeter, either current or voltage spikes,  thus
permitting a reliable measurement of the input power.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 09:54:34 1999
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Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 12:47:26 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Richard T. Murray's Journalist Standards
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Rich Murray writes:

	I regard Britz highly, as a competent skeptic

Get to the point. Do you mean he may be right? Do you seriously believe
McKubre did not measure atmospheric helium? Do you think helium might be at
1000 ppm? The people at SRI would be quacking like Donald Duck! Someone
would notice.


	I kept a low profile at the Society for Scientific Exploration
	. . . Hey, Jed, my memory for details is poor-- whatever  Mike
	McKubre may have said about checks on ambient He, I would 
	recall only the fragmentary notes I jotted down, as the slides
	flashed by.

Excuses, excuses! I can only imagine how Infinite Energy readers would
respond if I tried to get away with that. In the future, perhaps you should
predicate your New Age Journalism with this statement:

WARNING! DISCLAIMER! The following report may include gross errors,
misinterpretations, or large chunks of missing information because: I keep
a low profile at conferences; I have a poor memory; I recall only
fragmentary notes; I do not photograph slides or ask for copies; I cannot
be bothered to spend 75 cents for an audiotape; I never ask the authors for
a preprint of the proceedings submission; I do not follow up by checking
original sources or asking questions when critical issues are raised; and
when people who did not attend the conference make preposterous, slanderous
attacks on the research, I automatically report what they say.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 10:00:10 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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At 09:36 6/17/99 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>Does this mean that you measured a 1.6% excess power 
>in some of the measurements....

Yes, a brief discussion of this result and its possible significance can be
found in the Run 6 report.

>...despite your graph? 

All the points were correctly placed on my graph.  No, I don't think it's
worth blowing up the graph as you suggested.  The resolution of that little
graph (+/- 5%) is sufficient.  Remember, we're looking for an effect that
reportedly ranges up to 250% o-u.  In view of the input power measurement
uncertainty, it's got to get at least 5% o-u before I'm going to pay much
attention to it.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 10:03:49 1999
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Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 13:00:38 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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We (Horace and me) wrote:

>>There is no
>>reason to think that input is easier to measure or less chaotic at these
>>higher or lower settings.
>
>If a cell is making RF emissions then that alone is sufficient for concern
>of the response time of the power measurment.  Having a fast oscilloscope
>is not sufficient to account for non-repetitive waveforms . . .

The RF emissions occur at low and high voltages too, outside the range that
generates excess heat. The RF caused problems with the thermocouples until
Mizuno re-grounded them carefully.

I do not completely discount this "power measurment" hypothesis. Before we
take it seriouslly let us wait for Scott Little to see the excess heat and
prove it is a metering artifact. I doubt that Mizuno's equipment is less
reliable, slower, or less sensitive than Little's, but I do not know much
about power metering.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 10:11:24 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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At 11:27 AM 6/17/99, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>Mitchell Jones writes:
[snip]
>***{I see no reasonable explanation for the formation and maintenance of
>the steam cloak around the cathode, other than the occurrence of thousands
>of tiny arcs, each of which causes a steam explosion upon striking the
>liquid electrolyte, thereby replacing the steam that is constantly
>re-condensing or being vented where the cathode exits the water.


I think the steam cloak is mainly due to the fact the cathode is so hot.
It is so hot that it is incandescent.   A similar sheat effect would be had
from an incandescent insulated filament, with no current to the
electrolyte.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 10:11:29 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: PLEC: Input power measurement
In-Reply-To: <v04011703b38ec555c2b7 [207.8.67.178]>
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At 11:27 6/17/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>Each such
>arc is, in fact, a high speed spike in the current flow; and, when such a
>spike falls between samples taken by the power meter, it becomes an
>increment to an "over unity" result.

I don't get your reasoning here, Mitchell.  For the sake of discussion,
let's take a simplified current waveform that has an average value of 1 amp
but consists of 10 amp spikes, occuring randomly in time, whose average
duty-cycle is 10%.  In between these spikes...an average of 90% of the
time...the current is zero.  Now sample that waveform once per second.
Each sample measures the instantaneous value of the current.  Over time,
you will find that 90% of the samples taken show zero current and 10% of
the samples show 10 amps, simply because that is the population density (in
time) of the current spikes.  When these samples are all averaged together,
the correct average result is obtained:  1 amp.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 10:15:06 1999
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June 17, 1999  Hello Jed Rothwell,  Boy, are you articulate or what?
Say, what do you think of the scenario that in the Case cell, the Pd
plated C briquets will accumulate He from trace levels of U and Th and
their decay products?  If U and Th are each at 1 ppm, how much He will
be produced per year, accumulating, for the 10 gm of C?

Your strange bedfellow,  Rich Murray

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Rich Murray writes:
> 
>         I regard Britz highly, as a competent skeptic
> 
> Get to the point. Do you mean he may be right? Do you seriously believe
> McKubre did not measure atmospheric helium? Do you think helium might be at
> 1000 ppm? The people at SRI would be quacking like Donald Duck! Someone
> would notice.
> 
>         I kept a low profile at the Society for Scientific Exploration
>         . . . Hey, Jed, my memory for details is poor-- whatever  Mike
>         McKubre may have said about checks on ambient He, I would
>         recall only the fragmentary notes I jotted down, as the slides
>         flashed by.
> 
> Excuses, excuses! I can only imagine how Infinite Energy readers would
> respond if I tried to get away with that. In the future, perhaps you should
> predicate your New Age Journalism with this statement:
> 
> WARNING! DISCLAIMER! The following report may include gross errors,
> misinterpretations, or large chunks of missing information because: I keep
> a low profile at conferences; I have a poor memory; I recall only
> fragmentary notes; I do not photograph slides or ask for copies; I cannot
> be bothered to spend 75 cents for an audiotape; I never ask the authors for
> a preprint of the proceedings submission; I do not follow up by checking
> original sources or asking questions when critical issues are raised; and
> when people who did not attend the conference make preposterous, slanderous
> attacks on the research, I automatically report what they say.
> 
> - Jed

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Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 09:24:05 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
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At 1:00 PM 6/17/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:
[snip]
>Before we
>take it seriouslly let us wait for Scott Little to see the excess heat and
>prove it is a metering artifact. I doubt that Mizuno's equipment is less
>reliable, slower, or less sensitive than Little's, but I do not know much
>about power metering.


This is another strong argument for Scott going to visit Ohmori.  If the
excess heat is due to and error in Ohmori's innput power measurement, Scott
will never replicate the error with his equipment.  The only way to prove
such is to place his equipment on the same power input leads with Ohmori's.
Progress might be made if Ohmori placed inductors in his power leads
inside his calorimeter though.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 10:22:46 1999
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990617115703.00a9b104 mail.eden.com>
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At 11:57 AM 6/17/99 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>At 09:36 6/17/99 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>
>>Does this mean that you measured a 1.6% excess power 
>>in some of the measurements....
>
>Yes, a brief discussion of this result and its possible significance can be
>found in the Run 6 report.
>
>>...despite your graph? 
>
>All the points were correctly placed on my graph.  No, I don't think it's
>worth blowing up the graph as you suggested.  The resolution of that little
>graph (+/- 5%) is sufficient.  Remember, we're looking for an effect that
>reportedly ranges up to 250% o-u.  In view of the input power measurement
>uncertainty, it's got to get at least 5% o-u before I'm going to pay much
>attention to it.


  Nonsense.  These effects are subtle.  

  Since you did not go back and do the KS-beads where they
may have shown evidence of excess heat, you probably would not want
to know about this either.

  Signing off.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 11:03:51 1999
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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re:  PLEC:  Film Boiling & the Leidenfrost "Frequency"
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:52:05 -0600
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Mitchell Jones has a good point about the oscillation between nucleate and
film boiling (manifestation of the Leidenfrost Phenomenon-Point). Even
though the power supply is as solid as a rock, the film bubble oscillation
could give a "Duty Cycle" of 50% or less.

One could look at this with a microphone attached  to the beaker or a cobbed
up hydrophone.

I don't spitting on it would be a valid test.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 11:27:58 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC:  Surface-Active Agents and Surface Tension
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BTW,  nucleate-film boiling  and wicking at high heat fluxes in water heat
pipes was quite sensitive to the surface tension of the water.

10% (by weight) KOH or NaOH in the water will raise the surface tension
about 10%. OTOH with 0.1 % soap  (Potassium Oleate (C15-H31-CO-OK) will
lower the surface tension  from 72 dyne/cm to about 25 dyne/cm.

These effects could be quite significant on The PLEC experiments.

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 11:53:59 1999
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Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:52:59 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Murray: Rothwell: a little chat between the pot and the kettle
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Richard T. Murray asks:

	Say, what do you think of the scenario that in the Case cell,
	the Pd plated C briquets will accumulate He from trace levels of
	U and Th and their decay products?  If U and Th are each at 1
	ppm, how much He will be produced per year, accumulating, for
	the 10 gm of C?

How the hell would I know? I know nothing about carbon absorption or
accumulation, and I would never venture a guess about such a technical
subject. However, I do not see how it could explain the Case and SRI
results because the carbon would not know in advance whether it was going
to be subjected to deuterium or hydrogen, and I do not think D or  H would
cause the helium to come out any faster. And I do not see how that might
explain the excess heat.

Why don't you answer my questions, which are a lot less technical. Do you
or do you not believe that McKubre measured ambient helium before he began?
Do you think He concentration at SRI is 1 part per thousand? Yes or No?

Based on your non-response to my other comments, I suppose you see nothing
wrong with posting reports on Internet even though you admit your "memory
for details is poor" and you do not bother to make an audio or video tape
recording, photographs or documents. Well, at least you admit your
credibility is zero.

You think we are the same? The pot and the kettle? Ha! If I posted a report
about something and then I was forced to admit that I have no notes, no
records, and not a scrap of documentation to back up what I say, I would
permanently retire from Internet and the magazine. I would be *mortified*.
You dance away as if it makes no difference and we should say whatever
springs to mind. It *is* okay I guess, but you should not expect anyone to
listen.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 11:54:15 1999
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Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:57:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>,
        John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Ultraviolet breakdown of water
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	Dear Vo.,

	Looking for straightforward units and numbers for UV breakdown
of water.  Does anyone have some enginnering firgures on the order of;

	a]  "xxx"  wavelength UV
	b]   at "xxx" magnitude
	c]   yields "xx" grams O and "xx" grams H 
	d]   in "xx" time 

	As applied to liquid water in "xxx" manner.

			
	Or some similar expression of UV breakdown of water.

			???

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 11:54:16 1999
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Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:32:21 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6 - NOT subtle
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Mitchell Swartz writes:

	These effects are subtle.

The effects reported by Mizuno are not subtle. They are huge! 30 to 250%
excess, at hundreds of watts. Artifacts or real, these are big effects,
easily detected.

Subtle effects are generally artifacts or wishful thinking, in my opinion.
They are not worth bothering with. Subtle problems with materials or subtle
changes in experimental technique are a different matter. They may make all
the difference in the world. When you measure the volume of a Pd cathode
with a micrometer, and you find a 5% increase, that is subtle but it means
your experiment is doomed.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 12:05:12 1999
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Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:00:23 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC:  Surface-Active Agents and Surface Tension
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Fred writes:
>BTW,  nucleate-film boiling  and wicking at high heat fluxes in water heat
>pipes was quite sensitive to the surface tension of the water.
>
>10% (by weight) KOH or NaOH in the water will raise the surface tension
>about 10%. OTOH with 0.1 % soap  (Potassium Oleate (C15-H31-CO-OK) will
>lower the surface tension  from 72 dyne/cm to about 25 dyne/cm.

This is a good example of a potential "subtle problem" with materials. This
is what I meant in the previous message. The heat effect is not subtle but
the techniques and materials may be. Surfactants can be very difficult to
remove, I have heard. They are left over in test tubes (left over detergent
soap), and they get mixed in with supposedly pure water and heavy water
from chemical companies.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 12:28:08 1999
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Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:19:43 -0400
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6 - NOT subtle
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At 02:32 PM 6/17/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Mitchell Swartz writes:
>
>	These effects are subtle.
>
>The effects reported by Mizuno are not subtle. They are huge! 30 to 250%
>excess, at hundreds of watts. Artifacts or real, these are big effects,
>easily detected.
>
>Subtle effects are generally artifacts or wishful thinking, in my opinion.
>They are not worth bothering with. Subtle problems with materials or subtle
>changes in experimental technique are a different matter. They may make all
>the difference in the world. When you measure the volume of a Pd cathode
>with a micrometer, and you find a 5% increase, that is subtle but it means
>your experiment is doomed.
>


   Wrong.  The detection of the optimal operating point of these
systems is subtle.  Furthermore, the effects (if they exist in
any particular system) MUST be deconvolved from artifacts as
discussed in Swartz. M., 1997, "Biphasic Behavior in Thermal 
Electrolytic Generators Using Nickel Cathodes". lECEC 1997 
Proceedings, paper #97009; and in 
Swartz. M.., 1998, Patterns of Failure in Cold Fusion Experiments, 
Proceedings of the 33RD Intersociety Engineering Conference on 
Energy Conversion, IECEC-98-I229, Colorado Springs, CO, 
August 2-6, 1998, and in 
Swartz, M, 1997, "Noise Measurement in cold fusion systems, 
Journal of New Energy, 2, 2, 56-61, and in
Swartz, M, 1998,  "Optimal Operating Point  Characteristics of 
Nickel Light Water Experiments", Proceedings of ICCF-7.


  Sorry, Jed, but you are as wrong about this and the importance
of optimal operating points as you were in claiming that
iron impurities make a ruby (as opposed to chromium ions).


    Mitchell Swartz



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 12:34:05 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC:  Surface-Active Agents and Surface Tension
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At 03:00 PM 6/17/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Fred writes:
>>BTW,  nucleate-film boiling  and wicking at high heat fluxes in water heat
>>pipes was quite sensitive to the surface tension of the water.
>>
>>10% (by weight) KOH or NaOH in the water will raise the surface tension
>>about 10%. OTOH with 0.1 % soap  (Potassium Oleate (C15-H31-CO-OK) will
>>lower the surface tension  from 72 dyne/cm to about 25 dyne/cm.
>
>This is a good example of a potential "subtle problem" with materials. This
>is what I meant in the previous message. The heat effect is not subtle but
>the techniques and materials may be. Surfactants can be very difficult to
>remove, I have heard. They are left over in test tubes (left over detergent
>soap), and they get mixed in with supposedly pure water and heavy water
>from chemical companies.


  Nope.  In our experience, the material aspects, including 
impurities, and definitely NOT subtle but of major impact.
In both the Ni/H2O and the Pd/D2O system, these material
science and engineering aspects are of prime import
(after the optimal operating point).

   Mitchell Swartz



  


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 12:44:01 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC:  Surface-Active Agents and Surface Tension
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 <015301beb8ee$1a24d020$618f85ce default>
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Mitch wrote:

>  Nope.  In our experience, the material aspects, including 
>impurities, and definitely NOT subtle but of major impact.

I meant subtle to detect or eliminate. The impact is major, but it can be
hard to find a trace of soap. Martin Fleischmann suggested a starting
method: shake the bottle of electrolyte and see if it foams. I do not know
whether Scott Little has tried to rigorously eliminate all traces of soap
from his cells. Mizuno performs various elaborate steps to wash the
equipment, which take all day.

This is the sort thing a person might overlook when trying to replicate an
experiment.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 12:44:58 1999
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Message-ID: <37694F3E.A153AC verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 22:40:46 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Electromagnetic Zero Point Field as Active Energy Source in the 
 Intergalactic Medium (eprint:gr-qc/9906067)
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http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9906067
This paper appeared today on LANL archive.

Regards,
hamdi ucar

General Relativity and Quantum
Cosmology, abstract
gr-qc/9906067

From: Bernhard Haisch <haisch flare.stanford.edu>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:09:47 GMT   (10kb)

Electromagnetic Zero Point Field as Active Energy
Source in the Intergalactic Medium

Authors: Alfonso Rueda, Hiroki Sunahata, Bernhard Haisch
Comments: 7 pages, no figures
Report-no: AIAA paper 99-2145
Journal-ref: 35th AIAA/ASME/SAE/ASEE Joint Propulsion Conference and Exhibit,
20-24 June 1999, Los Angeles

     For over twenty years the possibility that the electromagnetic zero point
     field (ZPF) may actively accelerate electromagnetically interacting particles
     in regions of extremely low particle density (as those extant in intergalactic
     space (IGS) with n < 1 particle/m^3 has been studied and analyzed. This
     energizing phenomenon has been one of the few contenders for
     acceleration of cosmic rays (CR), particularly at ultrahigh energies. The
     recent finding by the AGASA collaboration (Phys. Rev. Lett., 81, 1163,
     1998) that the CR energy spectrum does not display any signs of the
     Greisen-Zatsepin-Kuzmin cut-off (that should be present if these CR
     particles were indeed generated in localized ultrahigh energies CR
     sources, as e.g., quasars and other highly active galactic nuclei), may
     indicate the need for an acceleration mechanism that is distributed
     throughout IGS as is the case with the ZPF. Other unexplained phenomena
     that receive an explanation from this mechanism are the generation of
     X-ray and gamma-ray backgrounds and the existence of Cosmic Voids.
     However recently, a statistical mechanics kind of challenge to the classical
     (not the quantum) version of the zero-point acceleration mechanism has
     been posed (de la Pena and Cetto, The Quantum Dice, 1996). Here we
     briefly examine the consequences of this challenge and a prospective
     resolution.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 12:46:32 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: PLEC: Run 6
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:44:33 -0400
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>
> I think the steam cloak is mainly due to the fact the cathode is so hot.
> It is so hot that it is incandescent.   A similar sheat effect
> would be had
> from an incandescent insulated filament, with no current to the
> electrolyte.
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner
>

That is supported by the fact that the arcing will not occur unless the
electrolyte is rather hot (~90C).  Turning up voltage with only warm water
will result in such large current flow that it becomes fuse expensive.  That
was also the conclusion reached by Kellogg in his 1950 article in Journal of
the Electrochemical Society.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 13:00:14 1999
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Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:53:28 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6 - NOT subtle
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M. S. writes:

>   Wrong.  The detection of the optimal operating point of these
>systems is subtle.

Not in Mizuno's cell. The operating range of voltages and power density are
wide and (I think) easy to hit. I wouldn't know how easy -- Scott can
address that. There is no optimum peak within the wide range of voltages
that work.


>  Sorry, Jed, but you are as wrong about this and the importance
>of optimal operating points . . .

Either that or you are wrong. As far as I know, you are the only person in
this field who believes your theories. I really cannot judge, but this
Pi-notch stuff looks like unproven mumbo-jumbo to me. Other people who have
made successful, high heat cells pay no attention to it. They have never
said that the effect only turns on in a narrow range of temperatures, power
input, and so on. The Ni CF input to output ratio is supposedly largest at
very low power levels. That is what CETI and others have said. I doubt it,
though. Sometimes the effect turns on and you can back off the input
completely, in heat after death. I would not call that "low power" I would
call it "no power" and I think it proves that electrochemical conditions
may trigger CF, but once it is underway they make no difference whatever.
It might as well be gas loading after that, with no input energy at all. I
am sure the large CETI demo cell input power had nothing whatever to do
with the output I measured, because there is no way a fraction of a watt
can masquerade as a kilowatt, despite your many claims to the contrary.

I suspect that most low power "excess heat" is just noise, wishful
thinking, and way-too-complicated calorimetry. I'll bet yours is! If it was
real you would have scaled it up years ago.

- Jed

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Horace Heffner wrote:

>
> I don't recall, is McKubre's paper avaiable online somewhere?

No.  McKubre is waiting until he has enough data to completely defend the work from
trivial attack, such as some members of this discussion have provided.  He does not
want to waste his time answering such questions when additional study can eliminate
the problem.  Besides, he is perfectly able to think up prosaic explanations
himself.  George gave enough information to wet your appetite. Now you will just
have to wait patiently for the meal.

Please forgive me for boring you all with some philosophy. Any scientific study has
in it a dynamic equilibrium between two questions: This is amazing, how can I
discover more, and This is ridiculous, how did I screw up?  Those of us who have
studied cold fusion for the last 10 years started at the How-did-I-screw-up end of
the spectrum and have now moved closer to how-can-I-discover-more.  Emphasis is now
placed on finding ways to gain more understanding rather than on eliminating every
unlikely explanation. You who have not studied the effects are starting at the
How-did-you-screw-up end of the spectrum.  This approach is very frustrating to
people working in the field because it is a waste of time and  a little insulting.
The approach does not provide any new insights into the nature of the phenomenon
and it assumes  people working in the field are basically incompetent and unable to
imagine trivial explanations without help.  In normal science, I person who studied
and became an expert in a subject would be acting as a teacher to those who are
interested in the subject.  We would not be required to defend the basic reality of
the subject at every turn.  Granted, this is a novel subject, but that does not
make the problem less frustrating.

As an example of the different approaches being used.  Skeptics made a point to
challenge the calorimeter, frequently suggesting problems which did not exist but
which required time and money to address.  On the other hand, people who believed
in the phenomenon started to examine the nature of the material.  After much
effort, and no thanks to skeptics, the problem of reproducibility has been
identified as being caused by limitations of the material.  Indeed, many aspects of
that nature are understood so that the effect has become much more reproducible.
The skeptical approach did noting except distract from this useful effort.

If you really want to contribute to the field, first ask questions.  Attempt to
understand what is known and how people in the field interpret the results.  Only
then make suggestions as to other possible explanations.  Realize that most of the
prosaic explanations have been considered and eliminated.  Granted, a few trivial
explanations have not been completely eliminated, generally because they are too
improbable to be examined at this time.  Think in terms  how to advance a new,
exciting field of study with a very limited budget,  rather than trying to show
that we are all wasting our time.

Horace, this lecture is not directed to you.  I have been impressed with your
suggestions and insights.  Keep up the good work.

Regards,
Ed Storms

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Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6 - NOT subtle
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At 03:53 PM 6/17/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>M. S. writes:
>
>>   Wrong.  The detection of the optimal operating point of these
>>systems is subtle.
>
>Not in Mizuno's cell. The operating range of voltages and power density are
>wide and (I think) easy to hit. I wouldn't know how easy -- Scott can
>address that. There is no optimum peak within the wide range of voltages
>that work.


   So you say.  OTOH, the experimental data of Szpak, Miles, Arata
and myself say you are wrong.

  ========================================================

>>  Sorry, Jed, but you are as wrong about this and the importance
>>of optimal operating points . . .
>
>Either that or you are wrong. As far as I know, you are the only person in
>this field who believes your theories.

   It is not a theory. It is experimental fact (see above).


  ========================================================


>I suspect that most low power "excess heat" is just noise, wishful
>thinking, and way-too-complicated calorimetry.


    No.  Some of your experiments involved noise as my paper
(ref previously posted) demonstrated.  In addition to the magnified
errors obtained by vertical flow calorimetry, noise errors can
be significant.  You might consider spending some time on the
data and the papers so that you separate what is theory and 
what is observed.

    Mitchell Swartz


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Subject: Re: PLEC:  Surface-Active Agents and Surface Tension
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At 03:41 PM 6/17/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Mitch wrote:
>
>>  Nope.  In our experience, the material aspects, including 
>>impurities, and definitely NOT subtle but of major impact.
>
>I meant subtle to detect or eliminate. The impact is major, but it can be
>hard to find a trace of soap. Martin Fleischmann suggested a starting
>method: shake the bottle of electrolyte and see if it foams. I do not know
>whether Scott Little has tried to rigorously eliminate all traces of soap
>from his cells. Mizuno performs various elaborate steps to wash the
>equipment, which take all day.
>
>This is the sort thing a person might overlook when trying to replicate an
>experiment.
>
>- Jed


   Good point.

     Mitchell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 13:38:46 1999
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Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:36:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6 - NOT subtle
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All,

Due to viewer response (or lack there of) the Jed & Mitchell show has again 
changed channels.

Let's join the show again already in progress (it never really stops):

Mitchell> Subtle.
Jed>      Not Subtle.

Mitchell> Is so Subtle.
Jed>      Is not Subtle.
Clinton>  Now that depends how you define the word Subtle.

Mitchell> ? (*& ?
Jed>      ???
Clinton>  Howdy boys.

Mitchell> How'd he get in here.
Jed>      Uh, hello?
Clinton>  What's this about the polls?

Mitchell> ???
Jed>      Well maybe we said something about dipoles...
Clinton>  Now, now, none of that hate speech, the Polish people are just
          like the rest of us.

Mitchell> Sorry, that's D-I-P-O-L-E-S, it has to do with physics.
Clinton>  Psychics, hey I call them all the time myself.
Jed>      Uh, that's P-H-Y-S-I-C-S, as in science.

Clinton>  Oh, say anybody else here work for the Chinese, was your check late 
          this week too?
Jed>      Uh, lot's of people are here from around the world, we'll ask around.
Mitchell> Thanks for visiting.

Jed>      Where were we?
Mitchell> Is so.

Jed>      Is not.
Mitchell> Is so, squared.
Jed>      Is not, infinity.

And now a word from our sponsors.

Bill
webriggs concentric.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 13:38:49 1999
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Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:33:57 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Input power measurement
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>At 11:27 6/17/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>Each such
>>arc is, in fact, a high speed spike in the current flow; and, when such a
>>spike falls between samples taken by the power meter, it becomes an
>>increment to an "over unity" result.
>
>I don't get your reasoning here, Mitchell.  For the sake of discussion,
>let's take a simplified current waveform that has an average value of 1 amp
>but consists of 10 amp spikes, occuring randomly in time, whose average
>duty-cycle is 10%.  In between these spikes...an average of 90% of the
>time...the current is zero.  Now sample that waveform once per second.
>Each sample measures the instantaneous value of the current.  Over time,
>you will find that 90% of the samples taken show zero current and 10% of
>the samples show 10 amps, simply because that is the population density (in
>time) of the current spikes.  When these samples are all averaged together,
>the correct average result is obtained:  1 amp.

***{You are counting on the randomness of the spikes to give you a random
sample. However, you do not know, in the case of the Ohmori-Mizuno cell,
that all the spikes are random. It is possible, with a regular series of
spikes, to defeat even a meter with lots of onboard intelligence, provided
it samples at uniform intervals. (And meters with less onboard intelligence
can often be fooled even when the spikes are random.) Suppose, for example,
that the meter takes 1 nanosecond samples at a frequency of 15,000 cps, and
that a 10 amp spike with a width of 1/150,000th second occurs at 15,000
cps. Result: you either always hit the spike, or you never hit it--which
means: your meter either gives a false reading of 10 amps, or it gives a
false reading of zero, with the latter occurring 90% of the time. Thus if
fast, regular spikes that are properly tuned to the sampling frequency of
the meter carry a significant portion of the total power, you are going to
underestimate input power 90% of the time, and think you are over unity. If
we suppose that half the power is carried by such spikes, then 90% of the
time you will think your COP is 2.0, and 10% of the time you will think you
are way below unity due to a really crappy cathode. (You will be very
happy, however, because you will think you are over unity 90% of the time.
:-)

This was all discussed in considerable detail on vortex-b several weeks
ago, by the way. My basic position is that if a meter takes samples at a
uniform frequency, it will be possible for a doggedly persistent researcher
to eventually (and quite inadvertently) come up with an experimental design
that will fall through the cracks, resulting in a false over-unity claim
which will be very difficult, but not impossible, to replicate. Result:
over-unity claims will persist at a low ebb, from diehard researchers of
this sort, but replications will be so hard to achieve (and scale-up, of
course, will be thoroughly impossible) that the field as a whole will
wither over time, as it has.

What is needed to cure this state of affairs, of course, is random sampling
meters, but when I asked if such meters existed several weeks ago on
vortex-b, the silence was deafening. My assumption is that there is no
market for them, since people almost universally seem to trust the flawed
meters that are presently in use. In their absence, any experimental paper
that makes an over unity claim must give the relevant particulars vis-a-vis
the meter used, the sampling frequency and width, and the measures taken
(use of oscilloscopes, *their* sampling width and frequency, etc.) to
assure that a tuned-in artifact of this sort has not influenced the
results. Without such information, an o-u claim is of no more significance
than the sound of the wind blowing.

It goes without saying, of course, that all of the above, however
matter-of-factly stated, is merely my opinion. Anyone who can shoot it down
is urged to do so. (I am at least as eager to disconnect myself from the
power grid as any one of you. I just want to be confident that my lights
will not go out when I do so. :-)

--Mitchell Jones}***



>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Leidenfrost Point and Film Boiling Heat Transfer Associated with Droplets and S
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:45:13 -0600
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FWIW.

 http://me.www.ecn.purdue.edu/BTPFL/Fac_Staff/Projects/droplets.html

Film boiling and the Leidenfrost Point should kick in at about 1.0
watts/cm^2 , or so,depending on lots of things.

How many watts/cm^2 are you running, Scott?  :-)

Regards,    Frederick

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Mitchell Swartz writes:

>>Not in Mizuno's cell. The operating range of voltages and power density are
>>wide and (I think) easy to hit. I wouldn't know how easy -- Scott can
>>address that. There is no optimum peak within the wide range of voltages
>>that work.
>
>
>   So you say.  OTOH, the experimental data of Szpak, Miles, Arata
>and myself say you are wrong.

I shouldn't argue with Mitch, but I would like clarify a few issues for
general readers: Szapk, Miles and Arata work with Pd electrolysis at
ordinary temperatures, usually at a fraction of a watt. The Mizuno
experiment is with W glow-discharge at 85 deg C and above, at hundreds of
watts. The experiments look completely dissimilar. We think the underlying
phonomena may be the same (CF) but there is no proof of that.

Of course the glow discharge effect may not exist, since it has not been
replicated yet.

I do not know anyone except Swartz who says the cells only operate within a
narrow range of input values and electrochemical conditions. Perhaps -- maybe
-- that is true for light water Ni CF, but I have never heard anyone say it
is true of Pd CF or the glow discharge variety. My guess is that Ni CF does
not care what the input is: any level of electrolysis works, but high power
does not improve things. Ni only absorbs a little H or D no matter what you
do. Perhaps loading peaks at a fraction of a watt and does not increase
significantly more at 10 watts, or 100 watts, so it might as well be 0.1
watts.

That is my gut feeling after looking at the Ni data and talking to Cravens,
Miley and CETI. It is probably not my original idea but if someone else
suggested it, I forgotten who.

The glow discharge excess heat definitely dies off above a certain power
level. The temperature, color and nature of the glow discharge also
changes, so this is not surprising.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 14:43:57 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6 - NOT subtle
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At 05:23 PM 6/17/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Mitchell Swartz writes:
>
>>>Not in Mizuno's cell. The operating range of voltages and power density are
>>>wide and (I think) easy to hit. I wouldn't know how easy -- Scott can
>>>address that. There is no optimum peak within the wide range of voltages
>>>that work.
>>
>>
>>   So you say.  OTOH, the experimental data of Szpak, Miles, Arata
>>and myself say you are wrong.
>
>I shouldn't argue with Mitch, but I would like clarify a few issues for
>general readers: Szapk, Miles and Arata work with Pd electrolysis at
>ordinary temperatures, usually at a fraction of a watt. The Mizuno
>experiment is with W glow-discharge at 85 deg C and above, at hundreds of
>watts. The experiments look completely dissimilar. We think the underlying
>phonomena may be the same (CF) but there is no proof of that.
>
>Of course the glow discharge effect may not exist, since it has not been
>replicated yet.
>
>I do not know anyone except Swartz who says the cells only operate within a
>narrow range of input values and electrochemical conditions. Perhaps -- maybe
>-- that is true for light water Ni CF, but I have never heard anyone say it
>is true of Pd CF or the glow discharge variety.


  Sorry Jed, but you are wrong based upon data from myself, Arata,
Miles and Szpak.

  Figure 2 of my paper at ICCF-7 proves that it holds for Pd/D2O for BOTH
the helium production AND the heat production which are overlapped.

  I did not publish the Arata data in that paper, but share with our fellow
vorts, that it also demonstrates the same effect. 

  Too bad you missed the lecture, Jed.  
  Although you disagree, the evidence is clear, and supported
by independent sources, and is so for all the three systems
mentioned above.

   ----------------------------------------------------

> Ni only absorbs a little H or D no matter what you
>do. Perhaps loading peaks at a fraction of a watt and does not increase
>significantly more at 10 watts, or 100 watts, so it might as well be 0.1
>watts.

   Some forms of nickel do load hydrogen, Jed.   


   Have a good day.
 
     Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 15:36:39 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
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Subject: RE: PLEC: Input power measurement
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Mitchell	
	I think people are thinking wrongly about the input power
measurement question. The individual current pulses into the reaction cell
may be random, but they come from a power supply of some sort, which acts as
a low pass filter for the input power. Most supplies have a capacitor as the
output component of the power supply, which supplies the random current
pulses drawn by  the device under test. However, the capacitor is charged
from a sinusoidal power source, which is rectified and filtered. By
measuring the smooth input power into the capacitor, which in general is a
very low loss device, the output power from the capacitor can be accurately
determined over time. It is a good idea to have a capacitor right across the
terminals of the device under test,
If the power supply is not a constant DC voltage, variations of this can be
done, but the important point is to measure a smooth, relatively slowly
changing power source to the experiment.

Hank
> ----------
> From: 	Mitchell Jones[SMTP:mjones jump.net]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, June 17, 1999 1:33 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: PLEC: Input power measurement
> 
> >At 11:27 6/17/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
> >
> >>Each such
> >>arc is, in fact, a high speed spike in the current flow; and, when such
> a  <snip>>>>
> ***{You are counting on the randomness of the spikes to give you a random
> sample. However, you do not know, in the case of the Ohmori-Mizuno cell,
> that all the spikes are random. <snip...>
> 
> It goes without saying, of course, that all of the above, however
> matter-of-factly stated, is merely my opinion. Anyone who can shoot it
> down
> is urged to do so. (I am at least as eager to disconnect myself from the
> power grid as any one of you. I just want to be confident that my lights
> will not go out when I do so. :-)
> 
> --Mitchell Jones}***
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >
> >
> >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
> >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 16:23:37 1999
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Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 17:23:11 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

>
> I do not know anyone except Swartz who says the cells only operate within a
> narrow range of input values and electrochemical conditions. Perhaps -- maybe
> -- that is true for light water Ni CF, but I have never heard anyone say it
> is true of Pd CF or the glow discharge variety. My guess is that Ni CF does
> not care what the input is: any level of electrolysis works, but high power
> does not improve things. Ni only absorbs a little H or D no matter what you
> do. Perhaps loading peaks at a fraction of a watt and does not increase
> significantly more at 10 watts, or 100 watts, so it might as well be 0.1
> watts.

Years ago, I proposed the following explanation for the behavior of the
H2O-nickel cells which might be worth reviewing in light of Swartz's claims.

EXPLANATION
1. The Ni cathode is covered by a monolayer of the electrolyte element (Na, K,
or Rb).
2. Heat is produced only where this monolayer exists.
3. When a bubble forms, part of the layer is shielded from the flowing current
and the monolayer quickly dissolves.  Thus, the higher the current, the smaller
the total area of the cathode that is covered by a monolayer.
4. The resulting higher current density in the unshielded regions can not cause
a higher nuclear reaction rate because, (1) only a monolayer is possible thereby
fixing the concentration of the alkali metal, and (2) the concentration of
hydrogen in the Ni-alkali layer is fixed by the limited solubility of hydrogen
in nickel.  Thus, the loss of a monolayer in the shielded region can not be
offset by increased current density in the unshielded regions.  Therefore, the
excess energy/applied energy ratio becomes smaller as the cell current is
increased because the excess energy becomes smaller and the applied energy
becomes larger.
5. The current density required to form a monolayer is inversely proportional to
the concentration of ions in the electrolyte.  Thus, the higher the
concentration of alkali in the electrolyte the higher the nuclear reaction

The Swartz behavior might occur in the H2O-Ni systems when the competing
processes can interact in special ways.  However, this does not seem to be a
general behavior.

In addition, I have not seen any support for the Swartz behavior in my samples
or in any other study using D2O and Pd.  Sorry Mitchell.

Regards,
Ed Storms




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 17:20:52 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 6 - NOT subtle
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At 05:23 PM 6/17/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:
>
>In addition, I have not seen any support for the Swartz behavior in my
samples
>or in any other study using D2O and Pd.  Sorry Mitchell.
>
>Regards,
>Ed Storms


  Ed:

   Nothing to be sorry about.  Science is what it is.

   Further, yours is an interesting hypothesis that is worth considering.

 Re: the optimal operating points.
   Fig 2 (ICCF7 Proceedings) was obtained - in part - from data
from  Stan and Mel. Neither had actually previously plotted their data
that way, or even considered it.  In fact, Mel was kind enough to
look up the info necessary for fig 2 from his lab books, since presenting
the data as a f(input power) was not something he had considered.
If you look at the curves, and the correlation, between He4 and heat
in the  paired curves, the optimal operating points become obvious.


 Did you plot the power gain of your samples as a function of input 
electrical power, as is done in Fig 2?  

 Best wishes.
   Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 18:30:46 1999
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Gee, Ed

A monolayer of Potassium Oleate between the Cathode and the Electrolyte?

What the Heck, Jed and Mitchell Swartz have turned Vortex into a Soap Opera,
today anyhow. :-)

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 20:29:57 1999
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Strangely enough K2CO3 should act as an Anionic "Soap":

A thin film of soap on the electrolysis cathode?

O = C-O-K
        |
        O-K      as should Potassium Acetate, a "Soap" made by reacting
vinegar with K2CO3:

2 CH3-CO-OH + K2CO3 ---->  CO2 +  2  CH3-CO-OK,   :-)

Synthetic Detergents can be prepared Anionic, Cationic, or Neutral.

Maybe if  P& F had added just a few drops of vinegar and oil?

The ball is in your court Mr. FRothwell.   :-)

Regards,       Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 21:23:20 1999
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Mitchell Jones' point could be interpreted in terms of a constant power
input to the cell, but a different mode of energy concentration in the cell
as it oscillates between discharge and collapse of the film "bubble"?

IOW, the electrolyte acts as one series resistance, and the bubble and
cathode gas/liquid interface, the other?

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 21:31:56 1999
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June 17, 1999
Yes, Jed Rothwell, a rather basic similarity is that we're both
amateurs at science and technology, and therefore don't have a secure
reputation based on credentials and experience.  So, we have to rely on
developing relationships with trusted experts, when our own ability to
decide who and what can be trusted is not finely honed in the usual 
way-- this, however, gives us the advantage of bringing to bear
abilities and understandings that are outside the purview of 
more traditional players.  For instance, I from various personal
experiences am sure of the existence of PK effects, and recognize the
typical long-running, subtly complex, deceptively simple CF
experiment, involving intense emotions of hope, concern, and desire,
with extremely important outcomes, as almost a prototypical example
of a PK experiment, in which, eventually, unpredictably, even
meaninglessly, "things just go bump in the night".

To me, your posts about me are aimed at discrediting me and trying
to drive me out of the field.  I think I am achieving some good
results about McKubre and the Case cell in a few days with a few
hours of work.  The hypothesis of Pd as a He sink has been clearly
refuted, thanks to the research data cited by Ed Wall, while Horace
Heffner and I have developed the very next day,  a very promising
idea, that trace U and Th in the 10 gr of Pd plated C will build up 
substantial He in the catalyst.  I have the conceit that indeed
McKubre, etc. did not think of this, for it's a simple, obvious
idea, yet I didn't come up with it, two weeks after hearing
McKubre's impressive talk, about six months after reading
Russ George's webpage about the same runs.

Who wants to dream up a great, big gaping hole right in the
center of their own apparently irrefutable CF experiment,
a dream finally come true? Skeptics, operating outside the shared
mindset of the "believers" can see things that need to be dealt
with, if results are to be realized so robust as to convince
everyone. Inexpert as I may be as a scientist and a reporter,
I have learned enough in three years to know that He has been the
bane of adventurous researchers in cold fusion since the 1920's.
So, gradually, as a layman critic, I have learned to always examine
every part of the experiment as a source of impurities: in the
Cincinnati cell, the SS container; in the CETI-Miley cell, the
electrolyte; in Mizuno's Fe from Au electrolysis, the glass cell 
(this last absurd claim seems to have fallen into merciful oblivion).
I haven't seen in these cases that the researchers were at all alert
to these impurity sources-- quite the contrary, otherwise, why would
it be so easy for a layman to spot these problems in the full,
detailed reports actually published?

Open discussion on the Internet, a la Little, can flush out a lot
of these problems, real time, day by day, saving the researcher
a lot of frustration and embarassment.  So Little, aided by a 
network of experienced friends, can zero in on the weakest link
in the Mizuno "boiled light" cell, accurate measurement of the
fluctuating input electric power.

Returning to the Case cell, it seems inevitable that the catalyst
will become little containers of He-- this has to be checked, and
is easy to check. A month of 3.4 atm at 200-210 deg C will disrupt
the briquets, which will be soaked with H2 or D2.  The convection
patterns in the bed of catalyst and the temperature distribution
may vary complexly with H2, compared to D2-- this has to be checked.
Basic physics ensures that the D, twice as heavy as the H, will knock
the He about more vigorously-- this has to be checked.  I bet that
this is indeed the fatal artifact: Horace Heffner deserves great 
credit for envisioning it.  

By the way, my posts about the George-McKubre results give copius
exact information from George's website, as well as the URL and
the email addresses, so anyone interested can quickly inform
themselves-- so I fancy that my reportage, which is civil and
respectful, by the way, sir, is actually of a high level of
competence-- witness my many long, excruciatingly detailed 
critiques of many published papers, surely as good as similar
articles by you on Miles and on Arata.  Thank you for helping me
establish my credibility in the field.

As one,  Rich Murray

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Richard T. Murray asks:
> 
>         Say, what do you think of the scenario that in the Case cell,
>         the Pd plated C briquets will accumulate He from trace levels
>         of U and Th and their decay products?  If U and Th are each at
>         1 ppm, how much He will be produced per year, accumulating,
>         for the 10 gm of C?
> 
> How the hell would I know? I know nothing about carbon absorption or
> accumulation, and I would never venture a guess about such a technical
> subject. However, I do not see how it could explain the Case and SRI
> results because the carbon would not know in advance whether it was
> going to be subjected to deuterium or hydrogen, and I do not think D
> or  H would cause the helium to come out any faster. And I do not see
> how that might explain the excess heat.  
 
> Why don't you answer my questions, which are a lot less technical. Do
> you or do you not believe that McKubre measured ambient helium before
> he began? Do you think He concentration at SRI is 1 part per thousand?
> Yes or No?
> 
> Based on your non-response to my other comments, I suppose you see
> nothing wrong with posting reports on Internet even though you admit
> your "memory for details is poor" and you do not bother to make an
> audio or video tape recording, photographs or documents. Well, at
> least you admit your credibility is zero.
> 
> You think we are the same? The pot and the kettle? Ha! If I posted a
> report about something and then I was forced to admit that I have no
> notes, no records, and not a scrap of documentation to back up what I
> say, I would permanently retire from Internet and the magazine. I
> would be *mortified*. You dance away as if it makes no difference and
> we should say whatever springs to mind. It *is* okay I guess, but you
> should not expect anyone to listen.
> 
> - Jed

Subject: Murray: Rothwell: a little chat between the pot and the kettle
             6.17.99
 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:13:31 -0700
 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
        Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:08:44 -0600
        From: "Richard T. Murray" <rmforall earthlink.net>
    Reply-To:  vortex-l eskimo.com
 Organization: Room For All
          To:  vortex-L eskimo.com

June 17, 1999  Hello Jed Rothwell,  Boy, are you articulate or what?
Say, what do you think of the scenario that in the Case cell, the Pd
plated C briquets will accumulate He from trace levels of U and Th and
their decay products?  If U and Th are each at 1 ppm, how much He will
be produced per year, accumulating, for the 10 gm of C?

Your strange bedfellow,  Rich Murray

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Rich Murray writes:
> 
>         I regard Britz highly, as a competent skeptic
> 
> Get to the point. Do you mean he may be right? Do you seriously
> believe McKubre did not measure atmospheric helium? Do you think
> helium might be at 1000 ppm? The people at SRI would be quacking like
> Donald Duck! Someone would notice.
> 
>         I kept a low profile at the Society for Scientific Exploration
>         . . . Hey, Jed, my memory for details is poor-- whatever  Mike
>         McKubre may have said about checks on ambient He, I would
>         recall only the fragmentary notes I jotted down, as the slides
>         flashed by.
> 
> Excuses, excuses! I can only imagine how Infinite Energy readers would
> respond if I tried to get away with that. In the future, perhaps you
> should predicate your New Age Journalism with this statement:
> 
> WARNING! DISCLAIMER! The following report may include gross errors,
> misinterpretations, or large chunks of missing information because: I
> keep a low profile at conferences; I have a poor memory; I recall only
> fragmentary notes; I do not photograph slides or ask for copies; I
> cannot be bothered to spend 75 cents for an audiotape; I never ask the
> authors for a preprint of the proceedings submission; I do not follow
> up by checking original sources or asking questions when critical
> issues are raised; and when people who did not attend the conference
> make preposterous, slanderous attacks on the research, I automatically
> report what they say.
> 
> - Jed

Subject:  Re: debate on Case cell He artifact 6.15.99
 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 13:03:57 -0700
 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
        Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:04:16 -0600
        From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
    Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
 Organization: Energy K System
          To: vortex-l eskimo.com
  
Horace Heffner wrote:

>
> I don't recall, is McKubre's paper avaiable online somewhere?

No.  McKubre is waiting until he has enough data to completely defend
the work from trivial attack, such as some members of this discussion
have provided.  He does not want to waste his time answering such
questions when additional study can eliminate the problem.  Besides, he
is perfectly able to think up prosaic explanations himself.  George gave
enough information to whet your appetite. Now you will just have to wait
patiently for the meal.

Please forgive me for boring you all with some philosophy. Any
scientific study has in it a dynamic equilibrium between two questions:
This is amazing, how can I discover more, and This is ridiculous, how
did I screw up?  Those of us who have studied cold fusion for the last
10 years started at the How-did-I-screw-up end of the spectrum and have
now moved closer to how-can-I-discover-more.  Emphasis is now placed on
finding ways to gain more understanding, rather than on eliminating
every unlikely explanation. You who have not studied the effects are
starting at the How-did-you-screw-up end of the spectrum.  This approach
is very frustrating to people working in the field, because it is a
waste of time and  a little insulting. The approach does not provide any
new insights into the nature of the phenomenon, and it assumes people
working in the field are basically incompetent and unable to imagine
trivial explanations without help.  In normal science, a person who
studied and became an expert in a subject would be acting as a teacher
to those who are interested in the subject.  We would not be required to
defend the basic reality of the subject at every turn.  Granted, this is
a novel subject, but that does not make the problem less frustrating.

As an example of the different approaches being used.  Skeptics made a
point to challenge the calorimeter, frequently suggesting problems which
did not exist, but which require time and money to address.  On the
other hand, people who believed in the phenomenon started to examine
the nature of the material.  After much effort, and no thanks to
skeptics, the problem of reproducibility has been identified as being
caused by limitations of the material.  Indeed, many aspects of that
nature are understood, so that the effect has become much more
reproducible. The skeptical approach did noting except distract from
this useful effort.

If you really want to contribute to the field, first ask questions.
Attempt to understand what is known and how people in the field
interpret the results.  Only then make suggestions as to other possible
explanations.  Realize that most of the prosaic explanations have been
considered and eliminated.  Granted, a few trivial explanations have
not been completely eliminated, generally because they are too
improbable to be examined at this time.  Think in terms  how to advance
a new, exciting field of study with a very limited budget,  rather
than trying to show that we are all wasting our time.

Horace, this lecture is not directed to you.  I have been impressed
with your suggestions and insights.  Keep up the good work.

Regards,  Ed Storms

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 22:23:41 1999
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Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:20:05 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: PLEC: Input power measurement
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At 3:33 PM 6/17/99, Scudder, Henry J wrote:
>Mitchell
>        I think people are thinking wrongly about the input power
>measurement question. The individual current pulses into the reaction cell
>may be random, but they come from a power supply of some sort, which acts as
>a low pass filter for the input power. Most supplies have a capacitor as the
>output component of the power supply, which supplies the random current
>pulses drawn by  the device under test. However, the capacitor is charged
>from a sinusoidal power source, which is rectified and filtered. By
>measuring the smooth input power into the capacitor, which in general is a
>very low loss device, the output power from the capacitor can be accurately
>determined over time. It is a good idea to have a capacitor right across the
>terminals of the device under test,
>If the power supply is not a constant DC voltage, variations of this can be
>done, but the important point is to measure a smooth, relatively slowly
>changing power source to the experiment.
>
>Hank


A capacitor only serves to decrease the rise time and spark energy.  The
way to smooth the supply current is to impose an inductance in each of the
power leads. These inductors, being exposed to high frequency, can be
expected to dissapate heat, so should be enclosed in the calorimeter
envelope.  In order to maintain a similarly fast rise time to the
configuration without smoothing inductances, a capacitor might be included
across the power leads but beyond the inductor pair.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 23:28:41 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: PLEC: Input power measurement
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I wrote: "A capacitor only serves to decrease the rise time and spark energy."

That was meant to say "A capacitor only serves to decrease the rise time
and *increase* spark energy."

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 17 23:29:12 1999
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Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 22:20:34 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: A Brown's gas generator design
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The main purpose of this Brown's gas (BG) generator design is to
efficiently convert either mechanical action or high voltage high frequency
AC current into Brown's gas, a stoichiometric mixture of hydrogen and
oxygen obtained from the hydrolysis of water.  This design is original, to
my knowledge, and also untested.

The primary strategy of this design is to use an electrolyte slurry which
contains a large amount of fine metal particles, say stainless steel,
maintained in suspension by agitation, by pumping the electrolyte through
the electrolysis system.  These particles act like plates in a multi-stage
BG generator, generating H2 on one side and O2 on the other.

The gas can be removed by running the particles through a degassifier which
can work in a variety of ways.  The degassifier and pump make a natural
combination.  The turbulence and centrifugal force of a vortex in a
centrifugal pump can be used to scrub the particles of gas bubbles.
Barriers or vanes can be installed in the vortex to increase turbulence.
The gas is taken out of the pump at the center of rotation.  Fluid is
introduced to the pump at a mid radius, and the blades and fluid takeoff
are to the periphery of the pump.  The pump exit is diminished in size over
normal pumps in order to increase the number of fluid rotations within the
pump.  The pump also serves as a backfire preventer, so might be mounted in
close proximity to a torch, motor or fuel cell.

A very high cell voltage is required, thus lowering the current for a given
design power.  However, the same current goes through lots of particles,
equivalent to a multi plate cell with many plates, so the energy per mole
of hydrogen should work out equivalently to a low voltage electrolyser with
very small plate separation.  The slurry should be comprised of a large
percentage of bubble forming particles.  This generator should be
exceedingly compact for the gas generated, due to the incredible equivalent
number of plates and the very minimal equivalent plate separation.  The
electrolyte resistance per equivalent plate is thus greatly reduced,
converting less of the current into waste heat and thus applying more
directly to gas generation.

Note that, by using a high frequency, the cell is driven capacitively
through the cell sides, or through an insulating covering over the plates,
eliminating the need for any exposed metal cell plates, and thus
eliminating cell plate corrosion.  Doing this also eliminates excessive arc
formation should a string of particles form a long short.  It also avoids
the formation of long plasma paths, and thus also reduces plasma erosion,
and cavitation erosion, of the plate insulators, while avoiding
unproductive current surges.

The proposed design works by pumping the electrolyte slurry between two
insulated plates.  A high voltage AC gradient is imposed through the
slurry.  This can be done by using static metal plates on the outside of
the cell, or insulated plates within the cell, with high voltage AC
applied.  Note that one of the plates can be at ground potential.  A third
insulated plate or blade in the electrolyte might be used as a
stirrer/wiper to maintain slurry dispersion and eliminate bubble sticking.

A novel approach to applying the AC gradient across the cell is to make one
of the plates an armature, a series of (flat) spokes mounted on an axle,
oriented so as to rotate in very close proximity to one of the flat (outer)
sides of the cell, which is made of insulating material.  The slurry in
this case is contained in a thin container which is circularly shaped, so
as to maintain the slurry flow along the perimeter of the circle of
rotation of the armature, and between the plates.  The plate opposing the
armature, on the other flat side of the cell, can simply be a round and
grounded metal plate the same diameter as the armature.  The armature
surface can be insulated, thus reducing the required thickness of the
insulating cell wall, while simultaneously eliminating corona loss from the
armature blades.  The armature is charged with high voltage DC, thus should
require no current and thus very little energy to maintain it electrically.
The electrolysis energy comes strictly from the armature motion.

Maintenance and construction is simplified and made less costly, by
eliminating the need to cut stainless plates, and the need to take the cell
apart to replace plates, and by reducing plate corrosion.  Using filters
and sieves, it should be possible to maintain the particle quality, even
while in operation.  One frequent maintenance problem might be erosion of
the the pump blades, but this might be reduced by choice of blade material.

This device might be used for investigating various materials for use as
bubble forming particles in the slurry, including semiconductor material,
and even insulating materials, and mixtures of the above.  Also of interest
for investigation are slurry particle concentrations, operating voltages,
operating frequency, and waveforms.

Is this all just wishful thinking, something worthwhile to tinker with, or
a good approach?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 02:17:48 1999
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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: The Chemistry of Soaps
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 03:10:58 -0600
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Nice presentation of soap-surfactant chemistry.

 http://wwwchem.csustan.edu/chem1002/soapexp.htm

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Subject: Soaps and Detergents - Chemistry (1)
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This is a very informative web site. 

 http://www.sdahq.org/sdalatest/html/soapchemistry1.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 02:48:34 1999
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From: David Jonsson <David Bahnhof.se>
Subject: Re: Depleted uranium
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At 19:43 1999-06-15 -0400, you wrote:

>David said:

>

>>What is the military usage of depleted uranium?

>>

>>I know it is a high capacity dielectric and my assumption is that it
is

>>used for lowering air-drag and to reduce radar profile. It might also
have

>>a role in electrogravitics.

>

>

>Uranium is metal. Metals are conductive. Dielectrics are not
conductive.

>Metals are not characterized by dielectric constant.


I didn't say that metallic Uranium was used as a dielectric. Its used as
a ceramic.


>its military use. It has nothing whatsoever to do with lowering air drag
or

>reducing the radar profile. These have to do with the shape of surfaces
and

>use of light weight radar absorbing materials such as carbon composites,
not

>heavy uranium. No role in electrogravitics.


According to Aviation Week & Space Technology, March 9 1992 , pp. 66-67 a
high density cermaic radar-absorbing material is made of depleted
uranium. This is put on the shells to avoid artillery radar to identify
the origin of the projectile according to col. Phil Corso. Also is said
by Paul LaViolete in the book Electrogravitcs Systems that the DU-ceramic
has a very high dielectric constant. My own conjecture is to use this
material to decrease the airdrag on the projectile. Studies of this kind
has been made <bigger>"Scientific Study of Unidentified Flying Objects"
by Eduard Condon 1969 page 722 and "Northrop studying sonic boom remedy."
Aviation Week & Space Technology, Jan. 22, 1968, p. 21. To reduce airdrag
must be of very high importance when designing procectiles. The one who
shoots longest is the one to win.

</bigger>

David


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 03:21:55 1999
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If  I read the electrostatic properties of the soap molecule correctly, Ed,
at the interface of the aqueous electrolyte and the electrodes the
Carboxylic Group (Hydrophobic) end should align toward the electrolyte
(water) surface and the Hydrocarbon Chain end should align toward the
electrodes.

This should create an insulating layer a few angstroms thick, that would be
similar to an insulating oxide layer, and at a few volts potential
difference create electrostatic fields on the order of 10^9 volts/meter,
allowing the electron avalanche or "spark" that you propose?

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 05:22:12 1999
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In this discussion, Horace said:

<snip>

>A capacitor only serves to decrease the rise time and spark energy.

And he corrected this to *increase* rise time.

>The
>way to smooth the supply current is to impose an inductance in each of the
>power leads. These inductors, being exposed to high frequency, can be
>expected to dissipate heat, so should be enclosed in the calorimeter
>envelope.

Yes and no. Pure inductance is reactive and does not get involved in the
power question. Real inductances use wire, which has some resistance, and
often ferromagnetic cores, which can dissipate heat from hysteresis effects
and circulating currents. However, a good RF choke will have a low loss
ferrite core. As I've pointed out also, ideally one would put a
low-inductance capacitor directly across the cell and -- yes indeed --
connect good RF chokes directly to the capacitor terminals with their other
ends connected to the power supply leads. And they may well be within the
calorimeter envelope. Thus all high frequency energy is confined to the cell
and the power supply will see no spikes. Measurements of power into the
power supply will be valid, but ideally should be of the DC power out of the
supply, which may vary slowly because of changing conditions in the cell.

The filtering will render irrelevant Mitchell Jones' concerns about not
measuring energy spikes.

<snip>

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 05:23:16 1999
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David Jonsson said:, in reply to my post:

At 19:43 1999-06-15 -0400, you wrote:
>David said:
>
>>What is the military usage of depleted uranium?
>>
>>I know it is a high capacity dielectric and my assumption is that it is
>>used for lowering air-drag and to reduce radar profile. It might also have
>>a role in electrogravitics.
>
>
>Uranium is metal. Metals are conductive. Dielectrics are not conductive.
>Metals are not characterized by dielectric constant.

I didn't say that metallic Uranium was used as a dielectric. Its used as a
ceramic.

MC: You did not say a uranium-based ceramic, and important difference.
Uranium *is* a metal; ceramics may well be formed from uranium, but this is
not the same as saying uranium is "used as" a ceramic. You have provided
interesting information that is new to me.

>its military use. It has nothing whatsoever to do with lowering air drag or
>reducing the radar profile. These have to do with the shape of surfaces and
>use of light weight radar absorbing materials such as carbon composites,
not
>heavy uranium. No role in electrogravitics.

According to Aviation Week & Space Technology, March 9 1992 , pp. 66-67 a
high density ceramic radar-absorbing material is made of depleted uranium.

MC: It would be more correct to say "made from" not "made of"; what were the
exact words used in the article?

 This is put on the shells to avoid artillery radar to identify the origin
of the projectile according to col. Phil Corso.

MC: Quite possible, as radar is used to locate the source of artillery
shells. Depleted uranium is also used as the throw weight of armor-piercing
shell for reasons others in vortex have pointed out.

 Also is said by Paul LaViolete in the book Electrogravitcs Systems that the
DU-ceramic has a very high dielectric constant.

MC: OK, point taken, may be. But uranium itself is not a ceramic, it is a
metal.

My own conjecture is to use this material to decrease the airdrag on the
projectile. Studies of this kind has been made "Scientific Study of
Unidentified Flying Objects" by Eduard Condon 1969 page 722 and "Northrop
studying sonic boom remedy." Aviation Week & Space Technology, Jan. 22,
1968, p. 21. To reduce airdrag must be of very high importance when
designing projectiles. The one who shoots longest is the one to win.

MC: My point is that reduction of air drag is primarily a function of shape
and smoothness of the surface, not the material of the surface. In the case
of aricraft, weight costs fuel and uranium is a very heavy material. That's
what you want for artillery shells, not aircraft skins.

And a footnote to Mitchell Swartz: In my original post I implied that
depleted uranium contained no U-235 or Pu-239. This is not accurate, as
Mitchell pointed out. More exactly, mined uranium is put through one of
several processes to increase the percentage of U-235 until it becomes a
useful fissile material in a reactor. The most widely used process is
gaseous diffusion, wherein uranium is combined with fluorine to form uranium
hexaflouride gas  (which is very nasty: Teflon -- carbon tetraflouride --
was invented as a gasket material to contain this gas). The enriched uranium
is reformed into metal slugs used in the reactor cores. After a time the
U-235 is reduced and U-238 is converted to Pu-239 and the slug is no longer
as productive. It is removed and the Pu-239 chemically extracted for weapons
use. The residue is "depleted uranium" which may contain U-235, but is no
longer strongly radioactive nor fissile under normal conditions.

These details were not relevant to the original discussion and I glossed
them over. I may not have all the details right, those active in the nuclear
industry may have corrections to offer.

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 06:42:28 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
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Mizuno has sent me a complete data file from one of his excess heat runs.  

I have plotted it in a manner similar to my own results and made a few
initial comments:

http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/Mizdat1.html

Please join me in evaluating this most interesting data.  There's a link to
download the full data file if you really want to get your hands dirty.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 06:43:57 1999
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Subject: RE: PLEC: Input power measurement
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At 3:33 PM 6/17/99, Scudder, Henry J wrote:

>determined over time. It is a good idea to have a capacitor right across the
>terminals of the device under test,

At 21:20 6/17/99 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:

>The
>way to smooth the supply current is to impose an inductance in each of the
>power leads.

I couldn't agree more, guys.  I used a capacitor in my first series of
experiments and it helped noticeably.  With significant inductors in series
between the cell-capacitor and power supply things would really smooth out.

But Mizuno uses nothing in the way of filtering.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 07:29:20 1999
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In a message dated 6/17/99 9:50:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
hheffner mtaonline.net writes:

<< 
 If a cell is making RF emissions then that alone is sufficient for concern
 of the response time of the power measurment.  Having a fast oscilloscope
 is not sufficient to account for non-repetitive waveforms, because it is
 necessary to achieve a fast precise accumulation of the instantaneous I*V.
  >>


Hi Vorts,

This discussion seems to have taken on a life of its own, aside from the 
experimental attempt to duplicate Mizuno's results.  Of course it's fun to 
pile on Scott, but this is the first time I've seen his work criticized 
because his measurement is more accurate than someone else's.  If mizuno is 
seeing a false o-u because he is making a defective measurement of input 
power due to limited frequency response or sampling rate, that is very easy 
for Scott to duplicate.  You can downgrade a measurement much easier than 
upgrade it.  

Scott, can you adjust the sampeling rate of the Clarke Hess to duplicate 
mizuno's instrument?  If not, one quick way to test this hypothesis to 
measure your input power with an old fashioned d.c. D'arsonval  voltmeter and 
current meter.  If you get 150% o-u  this way and not with the C-H you can 
look further into Mizuno's method.

This is fun.

Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 07:44:56 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
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In http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/Mizdat1.html, Scott Little writes:

	I have no idea why he changes the flow rate while the run is in
	progress. At least the reported Pout is about the same for each
	flow rate.

The flow rate is reduced to boost the cell temperature. The fact that Pout
does not change is good news. This graph shows Pout (Power out) measured by
the Delta T temperature only. This is probably 90 to 95% of the heat.
Another 5 or 10% will be lost in vapor and gas.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 07:47:40 1999
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Mike Carrell wrote:

> And a footnote to Mitchell Swartz: In my original post I implied that
> depleted uranium contained no U-235 or Pu-239. This is not accurate, as
> Mitchell pointed out. More exactly, mined uranium is put through one of
> several processes to increase the percentage of U-235 until it becomes a
> useful fissile material in a reactor. The most widely used process is
> gaseous diffusion, wherein uranium is combined with fluorine to form uranium
> hexaflouride gas  (which is very nasty: Teflon -- carbon tetraflouride --
> was invented as a gasket material to contain this gas). The enriched uranium
> is reformed into metal slugs used in the reactor cores. After a time the
> U-235 is reduced and U-238 is converted to Pu-239 and the slug is no longer
> as productive. It is removed and the Pu-239 chemically extracted for weapons
> use. The residue is "depleted uranium" which may contain U-235, but is no
> longer strongly radioactive nor fissile under normal conditions.

Mike, you have introduced some confusion here in an otherwise clear
explanation.
Depleted uranium never was in a nuclear reactor, never was exposed to neutrons,
and never contained Pu-239.  Depleted uranium is the U-238 which was left over
after part of the  U-235 was removed for use in nuclear applications.
Occasionally, U-238 has been used in breeder reactors to make Pu-239 but that
is a different story. Depleted uranium is still radioactive, although not
enough to be dangerous.  It is hazardous mainly as a heavy-metal poison.

Ed Storms


>
>
> These details were not relevant to the original discussion and I glossed
> them over. I may not have all the details right, those active in the nuclear
> industry may have corrections to offer.
>
> Mike Carrell




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 07:47:45 1999
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Bob writes:

>If mizuno is 
>seeing a false o-u because he is making a defective measurement of input 
>power due to limited frequency response or sampling rate, that is very easy 
>for Scott to duplicate.  You can downgrade a measurement much easier than 
>upgrade it.

Good idea! I should have thought of that. But what makes you think Mizuno's
sampling rate is any slower? I do not recall hearing that. Somewhere, way
back when, I posted web pages describing the specs for these instruments. .
. can't find them at the moment.


>Scott, can you adjust the sampeling rate of the Clarke Hess to duplicate 
>mizuno's instrument?

And the O-scope, too. Let's resolve this sampling business one way or the
other. As I said before, an instrument artifact should be easier to
replicate than real excess heat.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 07:52:04 1999
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

> If  I read the electrostatic properties of the soap molecule correctly, Ed,
> at the interface of the aqueous electrolyte and the electrodes the
> Carboxylic Group (Hydrophobic) end should align toward the electrolyte
> (water) surface and the Hydrocarbon Chain end should align toward the
> electrodes.
>
> This should create an insulating layer a few angstroms thick, that would be
> similar to an insulating oxide layer, and at a few volts potential
> difference create electrostatic fields on the order of 10^9 volts/meter,
> allowing the electron avalanche or "spark" that you propose?
>
> Regards,     Frederick

The spark effect appears to require a thicker layer than provided by this
mechanism.  In addition, cell resistance measurements show no evidence that
such an insulating layer forms when soap is present.

Ed Storms




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Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:51:48 -0500
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: RE: PLEC: Input power measurement
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>At 3:33 PM 6/17/99, Scudder, Henry J wrote:
>
>>determined over time. It is a good idea to have a capacitor right across the
>>terminals of the device under test,
>
>At 21:20 6/17/99 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>The
>>way to smooth the supply current is to impose an inductance in each of the
>>power leads.
>
>I couldn't agree more, guys.  I used a capacitor in my first series of
>experiments and it helped noticeably.  With significant inductors in series
>between the cell-capacitor and power supply things would really smooth out.
>
>But Mizuno uses nothing in the way of filtering.

***{Then I would use nothing also. The first thing you need to do is get a
robust "over unity" effect. Then, once you have it, you can begin a series
of procedures designed to determine whether that effect is real, or is a
tuned-in artifact such as I hypothesized, stemming from undermeasurement of
input power. Once you have the effect well in hand, the first investigation
would be to determine the exact sampling frequency and sample width of your
meter. (In addition, if it has an onboard microprocessor, a flowchart of
the algorithm which it uses to process the data would be nice.) Next, using
an oscilloscope with a *much* higher sampling rate, do a careful search for
spikes that are near the meter sampling rate or one of its nearby
harmonics. If you find them, then switch to a meter with a different
sampling rate, and see if the effect goes away.

As for sticking capacitors into the mix: your power supply is going to do
that already, to lock down the voltage. And if you use inductors to smooth
the current flow, you may kill a real effect: spikes in the current will
produce surges in the cathode, and those surges may be essential to a real
"over unity" effect. Thus I think you should adhere *very closely* to
Mizuno's experimental protocol at first, until you get the effect, and
thereafter concentrate on making sure your instruments aren't being fooled.
We don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water here. If the effect
is real, we don't want to kill it with prophylactic measures before it sees
the light of day.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 08:01:52 1999
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I wrote: "The flow rate is reduced to boost the cell temperature." Since
the graph shows Tcell does not change, that's obviously not quite right. I
should have said "the flow rate is reduced to boost enthalpy." My
understanding is that boiling increases, more vapor and gas are generated,
and total enthalpy increases, however the average electrolyte temperature
is already close to boiling, so you do not recover any more heat in the
flow. After the run, the condensate is weighed to determine Hv (heat of
vapor), and the Hg (heat of gas) is computed as:

Starting mass of cell - ending mass of cell + mass of condensate

The actual energy content of the gas is open to question.

There is no on-line display of total enthalpy.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 08:06:53 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: PLEC: Input power measurement
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Horace
	i=Cdv/dt so dv=idt/C, so a large C yields a small dv .

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	hheffner mtaonline.net[SMTP:hheffner@mtaonline.net]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, June 17, 1999 11:25 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	RE: PLEC: Input power measurement
> 
> I wrote: "A capacitor only serves to decrease the rise time and spark
> energy."
> 
> That was meant to say "A capacitor only serves to decrease the rise time
> and *increase* spark energy."
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 08:16:06 1999
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Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 07:17:09 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: PLEC: Input power measurement
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At 7:06 AM 6/18/99, Scott Little wrote:
>At 3:33 PM 6/17/99, Scudder, Henry J wrote:
>
>>determined over time. It is a good idea to have a capacitor right across the
>>terminals of the device under test,
>
>At 21:20 6/17/99 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>The
>>way to smooth the supply current is to impose an inductance in each of the
>>power leads.
>
>I couldn't agree more, guys.  I used a capacitor in my first series of
>experiments and it helped noticeably.  With significant inductors in series
>between the cell-capacitor and power supply things would really smooth out.
>
>But Mizuno uses nothing in the way of filtering.

And that is why it is Mizuno and not Scott Little that should take the next
action related to input power measurement.  He should use a bypass
capacitor across the cell leads, but after the inductors, with the
inductors and the bypass capacitor enclosed in the calorimeter envelope.
The inductors don't have to be all that large, only large enough to spread
a short pulse across a sampling interval or two.  The alternative is a trip
for Scott, which might be far more desirable (hey, I'd like to go too! 8^)

Is Mizuno using a digital sampling power analyser, or analog?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 08:16:51 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Depleted Uranium
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At 7:49 AM 6/18/99, Mike Carrell wrote:
>After a time the
>U-235 is reduced and U-238 is converted to Pu-239 and the slug is no longer
>as productive. It is removed and the Pu-239 chemically extracted for weapons
>use. The residue is "depleted uranium" which may contain U-235, but is no
>longer strongly radioactive nor fissile under normal conditions.


It is just not credible that processed fuel rod contents end up in
ordinance.  The depleted uranium is material left over from the original
enrichment process, not material from a reactor, true?  In other words,
similar to natural mined and refined uranium, but with the U235, natural
abundance 0.72 percent, partially removed.

I would also like to note that it is not reduced drag that gives uranium
shells extended range, but rather the high momentum/drag ratio due to the
high density.  It is only indirectly true that drag is reduced in that a
shell of a given mass has less cross section.  The uranium surface itself
does not reduce drag.  In fact, I think the shells are covered with a
non-uranium outer metal jacket.

Also notable is that a uranium ceramic would have less density and thus be
less effective than pure metal in a projectile.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 08:33:38 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: PLEC: Input power measurement
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At 8:04 AM 6/18/99, Scudder, Henry J wrote:
>Horace
>        i=Cdv/dt so dv=idt/C, so a large C yields a small dv .
>
>Hank

You are applying the wrong formula.  A spark is just brief a short.  The
spark lifetime is a function of the spark mechanics itself.  The voltage is
constant, actively held constant by the power supply, at the power
measuring end of the power leads.  Voltage spikes are not the problem.  The
current rise time, and thus maximum current for the brief spark duration,
however, assuming the capacitance is large, is a function of the inductance
of the power leads.  It is the extraordinarily high (relatively speaking)
and brief current peaks that are suggested to cause the power measuring
problem.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 08:56:13 1999
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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Ed Storms' Film Theory and Soap?
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:48:23 -0600
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Ed Storms wrote:

> The spark effect appears to require a thicker layer than
> provided by this mechanism.
>
> In addition, cell resistance measurements show no evidence
> that such an insulating layer forms when soap is present.
>
I would think that the voltage from a resistance measuring device
would break down the insulating layer anyway. Thus any
sparks would have occurred when the measuring field was applied, which
suggests that a pulsed voltage source that would allow time for "self
healing"
of the layer would be necessary.

FWIW, in the late 50's I was experimenting with "Hard Anodizing" of
6061-T6 Aluminum using a brass plate as a cathode in a liter beaker of
water laced with "Molybdic Acid" or possibly Ammonium Paramolybdate,
(I can't remember which) and using a D.C. power supply with the positive
lead hooked to a scrap of aluminum that was held  above the electrolyte in
the beaker and allowed to be lowered into the thing would "Anodize" about as
fast as you could feed it into the beaker (with lots of arcs and sparks) of
course.

Using the point of a scribe hooked to a high-pot power supply with the other
side
of the  power supply hooked to the unanodized portion of the aluminum, it
took
several kilovolts to break down the hard grayish-brown coating.

I never got around to getting Morry Karnowsky to optimize this and apply for
a patent on it, since the Martin Hardcoat process was the rage of the time.
:-)

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 08:56:38 1999
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Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 07:57:48 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: PLEC: Input power measurement
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At 8:06 AM 6/18/99, Mike Carrell wrote:
>In this discussion, Horace said:
>
><snip>
>
>>A capacitor only serves to decrease the rise time and spark energy.
>
>And he corrected this to *increase* rise time.


This above statement is just dead wrong.  Why didn't you just quote my post?

Here is a quote of my typo correction:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
That was meant to say "A capacitor only serves to decrease the rise time
and *increase* spark energy."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


>
>>The
>>way to smooth the supply current is to impose an inductance in each of the
>>power leads. These inductors, being exposed to high frequency, can be
>>expected to dissipate heat, so should be enclosed in the calorimeter
>>envelope.
>
>Yes and no. Pure inductance is reactive and does not get involved in the
>power question.

This is not correct, IMHO.  The low inductance of the power leads is the
reason for the fast current spikes which are suggested to cause the power
measuring error.


>Real inductances use wire, which has some resistance, and
>often ferromagnetic cores, which can dissipate heat from hysteresis effects
>and circulating currents. However, a good RF choke will have a low loss
>ferrite core. As I've pointed out also, ideally one would put a
>low-inductance capacitor directly across the cell and -- yes indeed --
>connect good RF chokes directly to the capacitor terminals with their other
>ends connected to the power supply leads. And they may well be within the
>calorimeter envelope. Thus all high frequency energy is confined to the cell
>and the power supply will see no spikes. Measurements of power into the
>power supply will be valid, but ideally should be of the DC power out of the
>supply, which may vary slowly because of changing conditions in the cell.
>
>The filtering will render irrelevant Mitchell Jones' concerns about not
>measuring energy spikes.


OK, so then we are agreed.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 09:08:45 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Ed Storms' Film Theory and Soap?
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At 9:48 AM 6/18/99, Frederick  Sparber wrote:

>FWIW, in the late 50's I was experimenting with "Hard Anodizing" of
>6061-T6 Aluminum using a brass plate as a cathode in a liter beaker of
>water laced with "Molybdic Acid" or possibly Ammonium Paramolybdate,
>(I can't remember which) and using a D.C. power supply with the positive
>lead hooked to a scrap of aluminum that was held  above the electrolyte in
>the beaker and allowed to be lowered into the thing would "Anodize" about as
>fast as you could feed it into the beaker (with lots of arcs and sparks) of
>course.
>
>Using the point of a scribe hooked to a high-pot power supply with the other
>side
>of the  power supply hooked to the unanodized portion of the aluminum, it
>took
>several kilovolts to break down the hard grayish-brown coating.


Pretty cool!  Thanks for sharing that with us.  Do you recall what voltage
you used to anodize?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 09:16:43 1999
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Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 12:15:37 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Horace Heffner wrote:
 
> It is just not credible that processed fuel rod contents end up in
> ordinance.  The depleted uranium is material left over from the original
> enrichment process, not material from a reactor, true?  

<snip>

True, from the Federal Register:

Department of Defense
32 CFR Part 178 

"6. Depleted Uranium
Depleted uranium (DU) is a byproduct of the uranium enrichment
processes. DU is used in the commercial sector by the aircraft
industry as counterweights, by the power industry as radiation
shielding, and by the military as an armor-piercing projectile due
to its hardness, strength, and density. DU's potential radiation
exposure is small. As an alpha particle emitter, its radiation does
not penetrate human skin or even ordinary paper. DU may be present
on closed, transferred, and transferring ranges. DU is regulated by
the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission."

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 09:19:25 1999
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Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 08:15:14 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Zero point motion directly measured
Resent-Message-ID: <"rw3vC2.0.FE.7_cQt" mx1>
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PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 433 June 15, 1999   by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein

ZERO-POINT MOTION IN A BOSE-EINSTEIN CONDENSATE
has been quantitatively measured for the first time, allowing
researchers, in effect, to study matter at a temperature of absolute
zero.  According to quantum mechanics, objects cooled to absolute
zero do not freeze to a complete standstill; instead they jiggle
around by some minimum amount.  MIT researchers (Wolfgang
Ketterle, 617-253-6815) measured such "zero-point motion" in a
sodium BEC, a collection of gas atoms that are collectively in the
lowest possible energy state (Update 233).  According to Ketterle,
"the condensate has no entropy and behaves like matter at absolute
zero."   The MIT physicists measured the motion (or lack thereof)
by taking advantage of the fact that atoms absorb light at slightly
lower (higher) frequencies if they are moving away from (towards)
the light.  To determine these Doppler shifts (100 billion times
smaller than those of moving galaxies), the researchers used a
technique known as Bragg scattering.  In this technique, atoms
absorb photons at one energy from a laser beam and are stimulated
by a second laser to emit a photon at another energy which can be
shifted upward or downward depending on the atoms' motion
towards or away from the lasers. Measuring the range in energies
of the emitted photons allowed the researchers to determine the
range of momentum values in the condensate.  Multiplying this
measured momentum spread (delta p) by the size of the condensate
(delta x) gave an answer of approximately h-bar (Planck's constant
divided by 2 pi)--the minimum value allowed by Heisenberg's
uncertainty relation and quantum physics.  While earlier BECs
surely harvested this zero-point motion, previous measurements of
BEC momentum spreads were done with exploding condensates
having energies hundreds of times larger than the zero-point
energy.  (J. Stenger et al., Physical Review Letters, 7 June 1999.)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 09:27:42 1999
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Subject: Re: Murray: Rothwell: Storms: the kettle and the pot 6.17.99
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"Richard T. Murray" wrote:

The hypothesis of Pd as a He sink has been clearly

> refuted, thanks to the research data cited by Ed Wall, while Horace
> Heffner and I have developed the very next day,  a very promising
> idea, that trace U and Th in the 10 gr of Pd plated C will build up
> substantial He in the catalyst.

I checked my sample of United Catalyst G75E, the batch used by Case, with a
Geiger counter and detected no radiation above background.  If the helium
resulted from U or Th decay, the the presence of these elements would be
easy to detect.  Absence of these elements is understandable because the
carbon is made, I understand, from coconut shells which are very unlikely
to contain these elements.

As for your contributions Rich, I personally welcome creative ideas as long
as they are in the context of advancing understanding rather than rejecting
the reality of the field.  The latter job has been done too well in the
past and no longer serves a purpose. Unfortunately, you have in the past
seemed to be part of this failed effort.  I'm glad you have changed your
mind and will help us all understand what is actually going on. We can not
be too careful, but we need to agree that the phenomenon is real and is
worth the trouble, rather than having our efforts being shown up as
self-delusion or incompetence.  It is not the suggestions which cause the
trouble but the style of delivery.

> I have the conceit that indeed
> McKubre, etc. did not think of this, for it's a simple, obvious
> idea, yet I didn't come up with it, two weeks after hearing
> McKubre's impressive talk, about six months after reading
> Russ George's webpage about the same runs.

> Who wants to dream up a great, big gaping hole right in the

> center of their own apparently irrefutable CF experiment,
> a dream finally come true? Skeptics, operating outside the shared
> mindset of the "believers" can see things that need to be dealt
> with, if results are to be realized so robust as to convince
> everyone.

You must realize that some ideas have not been previously considered, not
because we want to avoid such embarrassing possibilities, but because
common sense makes the idea just too improbable to be worth the trouble.
The possibility of radioactive decay falls into this category.  However,
the idea could be checked easily and now can be laid to rest.  For that you
and Horace should be thanked. However, if all such ideas were checked out,
we would never get anything else done - the field would die in its tracks
for want of new and more impressive data.  Nevertheless, I agree sometimes
an observer outside of a field can spot errors which are missed by someone
too close to the problem.  However, it is important to approach the
suggestion with some humility and with a realization that the idea may be
totally unimportant,  in contrast to assuming the other person is blind or
incompetent.

> Open discussion on the Internet, a la Little, can flush out a lot
> of these problems, real time, day by day, saving the researcher
> a lot of frustration and embarassment.  So Little, aided by a
> network of experienced friends, can zero in on the weakest link
> in the Mizuno "boiled light" cell, accurate measurement of the
> fluctuating input electric power.

Here is an area where such suggestions pay off.  This is a study which is
just starting, where the background understanding has not yet developed,
and where a communication problem exists.  I have been impressed with the
quality and usefulness of the suggestions.

>
> Returning to the Case cell, it seems inevitable that the catalyst
> will become little containers of He-- this has to be checked, and
> is easy to check. A month of 3.4 atm at 200-210 deg C will disrupt
> the briquets, which will be soaked with H2 or D2.  The convection
> patterns in the bed of catalyst and the temperature distribution
> may vary complexly with H2, compared to D2-- this has to be checked.
> Basic physics ensures that the D, twice as heavy as the H, will knock
> the He about more vigorously-- this has to be checked.  I bet that
> this is indeed the fatal artifact: Horace Heffner deserves great
> credit for envisioning it.

This is an example of being too certain of your ideas.  Remember, the
conclusions arrived at by McKubre are based on months of careful work while
your suggestion is based only on an assumption.  The assumption is worth
checking, but at this time it has a low probability and is competing with
other ideas for attention.

> By the way, my posts about the George-McKubre results give copius
> exact information from George's website, as well as the URL and
> the email addresses, so anyone interested can quickly inform
> themselves-- so I fancy that my reportage, which is civil and
> respectful, by the way, sir, is actually of a high level of
> competence-- witness my many long, excruciatingly detailed
> critiques of many published papers, surely as good as similar
> articles by you on Miles and on Arata.  Thank you for helping me
> establish my credibility in the field.

Yes, this is true for which I am must grateful.

Regards,

Ed Storms

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 09:45:57 1999
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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Ed Storms' Film Theory and Soap?
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----- Original Message -----
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 18, 1999 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: Ed Storms' Film Theory and Soap?

It was a Sorenson supply that went up to 600 volts at about 500 ma, but when
the aluminum hit the solution, the voltmeter went down to the bottom peg and
the milliammeter went up to the top peg.  :-)

As I said, I didn't get around to optimizing it. I would suggest one hand in
the pocket and a good rubber glove on the other.

Interestingly, the Molybdate properties  are close to the Tungstates that
Scott should be getting in the Mizuno experiments, But I don't know if the
Tungsten will Anodize if  he briefly reverses the polarity, which Ed Storms
thought might be a good way to put an insulating oxide layer on the W
cathode.

Your guess is as good as mine, Horace.

Regards,   Frederick




> At 9:48 AM 6/18/99, Frederick  Sparber wrote:
>
> >FWIW, in the late 50's I was experimenting with "Hard Anodizing" of
> >6061-T6 Aluminum using a brass plate as a cathode in a liter beaker of
> >water laced with "Molybdic Acid" or possibly Ammonium Paramolybdate,
> >(I can't remember which) and using a D.C. power supply with the positive
> >lead hooked to a scrap of aluminum that was held  above the electrolyte
in
> >the beaker and allowed to be lowered into the thing would "Anodize" about
as
> >fast as you could feed it into the beaker (with lots of arcs and sparks)
of
> >course.
> >
> >Using the point of a scribe hooked to a high-pot power supply with the
other
> >side
> >of the  power supply hooked to the unanodized portion of the aluminum, it
> >took
> >several kilovolts to break down the hard grayish-brown coating.
>
>
> Pretty cool!  Thanks for sharing that with us.  Do you recall what voltage
> you used to anodize?
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 09:53:53 1999
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Subject: Re: Murray: Rothwell: Storms: the kettle and the pot 6.17.99
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At 10:11 AM 6/18/99, Edmund Storms wrote:
>"Richard T. Murray" wrote:
>
>The hypothesis of Pd as a He sink has been clearly
>
>> refuted, thanks to the research data cited by Ed Wall, while Horace
>> Heffner and I have developed the very next day,  a very promising
>> idea, that trace U and Th in the 10 gr of Pd plated C will build up
>> substantial He in the catalyst.


Somehow I missed this in the original post.  I had no part in and in fact
disagree with the "trace U and Th" hypothesis.


>> Returning to the Case cell, it seems inevitable that the catalyst
>> will become little containers of He-- this has to be checked, and
>> is easy to check. A month of 3.4 atm at 200-210 deg C will disrupt
>> the briquets, which will be soaked with H2 or D2.  The convection
>> patterns in the bed of catalyst and the temperature distribution
>> may vary complexly with H2, compared to D2-- this has to be checked.
>> Basic physics ensures that the D, twice as heavy as the H, will knock
>> the He about more vigorously-- this has to be checked.  I bet that
>> this is indeed the fatal artifact: Horace Heffner deserves great
>> credit for envisioning it.


I appreciate the credit, but I am not sure this is that all that important,
and it was mentioned secondarily in relation to the importance of the
convection cell formation.   Also, I would like to clarify my statement
that in Little's experiments that D2 exhibited convection when H2 did not.
The critical fact is that in some circumstances, i.e. at some specific
temperatures, D2 exhibits convection when H2 does not.  This is a an
unusual case where chemical circumstances can be significantly affected by
isotopic differences.  Since convection formation is so affected, it is
reasonable to expect convection intensity, i.e. gas velocity, might also be
different in the temperature range where both H2 and D2 form convection
cells, and the particle momenta different as well.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 09:59:22 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Depleted Uranium
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At 12:15 PM 6/18/99, Terry Blanton wrote:
[snip]
>Department of Defense
>32 CFR Part 178
>
>"6. Depleted Uranium
>Depleted uranium (DU) is a byproduct of the uranium enrichment
>processes. DU is used in the commercial sector by the aircraft
>industry as counterweights, by the power industry as radiation
>shielding, and by the military as an armor-piercing projectile due
>to its hardness, strength, and density. DU's potential radiation
>exposure is small. As an alpha particle emitter, its radiation does
>not penetrate human skin or even ordinary paper. DU may be present
>on closed, transferred, and transferring ranges. DU is regulated by
>the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission."


Nice source Terry!

BTW, it just occured to me that DU would make for a fantastic sailboat
keel.  Maybe DOE could lend some for the Americas Cup?   8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 14:21:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Particles of conductor in cell Re: A Brown's gas generator design
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	Dear Vo.,

	Comments, notes questions:

	1] In general elecrticity takes the path of least resistance....
the conductor particles may provide such a preferential path, thereby
reducing the useful current through the electrolyte.

	2] "Brown's Gas" .... What is it?  If it is a mixture of  O and H
... maybe with water vapor as well  .... Then how do you run fuel cell
with the mixed gas?  Is it not true the fuel cells need separate O and H?

	3] It seems safer and more useful, from an economic stand poit to
use a design which gives O and H as separate gas outputs.  This can have
several benefits, including but not limited to:
		a] safer storage
		b] variable control of combustion mixturee
		c] allws sale of two marketable products... O and H

	4] Q:   Are there any benefits to having a mixture and no choice
in the matter as opposed to separate O and H?  It seems separate gasses
are more useful.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 12:12:55 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Particles of conductor in cell Re: A Brown's gas generator design
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At 2:21 PM 6/18/99, John Schnurer wrote:
>        Dear Vo.,
>
>        Comments, notes questions:
>
>        1] In general elecrticity takes the path of least resistance....
>the conductor particles may provide such a preferential path, thereby
>reducing the useful current through the electrolyte.


The current through the electrolyte surves no useful purpose.  It converts
energy to heat, thuse reducing the efficiency of the electrolyser.
Reduction of this value is the main objective of the design.

>
>        2] "Brown's Gas" .... What is it?  If it is a mixture of  O and H
>... maybe with water vapor as well  .... Then how do you run fuel cell
>with the mixed gas?

Good question.  Beats me!  Migth ask Michael T Huffman:

At 2:26 PM 6/16/99, Michael T Huffman wrote:
[snip]
>BTW, Todd said that his generator/fuel cell combination design vs total
>input power were around 90%.  If true, that's not too shabby.  He had some
>good ideas for safer gas storage, too.
>
>Knuke

I don't know who Todd is either.

At 2:21 PM 6/18/99, John Schnurer wrote:
>Is it not true the fuel cells need separate O and H?

As far as I know, yes.  However, it should be (theoretically) feasible to
separate O2 and H2 at a low energy cost.


>
>        3] It seems safer and more useful, from an economic stand poit to
>use a design which gives O and H as separate gas outputs.  This can have
>several benefits, including but not limited to:
>                a] safer storage
>                b] variable control of combustion mixturee
>                c] allws sale of two marketable products... O and H


I couldn't agree more.  However, the efficiency problem is getting
electrolytes resisitance low, i.e. plate separation minimal.  Other
efficiency means, i.e. operating at high pressure and temperature, are
already employed for hydrogen production.

Also of interest is that Brown's gas is said to have special and useful
properties, and the generating process is purported to be possibly second
law violating.  BG has been used to cut tungsten.  BG is has been said to
produce more energy than just H2 + O2, possibly due to the presence of
monatomic hydrogen.  I think recent research has shown otherwise though.
It has been suggested BG generators might be used to drive cars on water
fuel.  I'll believe that when I see it!  Nevertheless, if this design
raises the gas generating efficiency, it may be of use in some capacity.

Also, the proposed device has similar characteristics to various CF
devices, so might show over unity properties with some electrolytes and
metals.  Cathode destruction should be less of a problem at least, and
electrode surface area maximized.

>
>        4] Q:   Are there any benefits to having a mixture and no choice
>in the matter as opposed to separate O and H?  It seems separate gasses
>are more useful.


I agree, in principle.  However, there are lots of BG affectioandos who
think otherwise.  At any rate, the subject design is intended for BG
production.  My best ideas for improving ordinary electrolysis cells so far
is use of rotating plates, plate wiper blades, and the use of suspended
particle (micro-ball) bubble scrubbers.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 12:15:49 1999
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Hi Scott,

Just a few comments on your last run.  Your setup is steadily improving, and
your data is becoming more complete.  You've managed to put together in a
very short time something that could be a very good test bed for a number of
experiments.  There are, however, some things that I'm sure you'll agree
could be improved upon.  I don't think, and this is my opinion, that the
setup is ready yet to use the Mizuno Cathodes, at least not in such a
destructive situation.  It may be wise at this point to do some more
intermediate testing of calorimetry, the protocols and the actual materials
themselves to determine what their relationships are to the overall
experiment, and to help quantify some the the differences in the operating
parameters.

One of the things that characterizes the successful electrolytic CF
experiments is the amount of H2 loading that takes place in the cathode.  I
don't know what Mizuno has to say about this, since it is an arc discharge
device, and not strictly an electrolytic device, but there may be vast
differences in the materials (your cathode vs his cathode) that affect this
loading.  It would be nice to know, for example, if there actually is a
loading phase, and under what circumstances would this loading be optimal.
This can be determined, I think, nondestructively, simply by first putting
the cathode into a vacuum to remove whatever gases are in there, putting it
directly into the cell, applying voltages over a regime,  removing the
cathode, measuring it, and recording the data.  There are numerous ways to
do this, but I would want to do it quickly, and would probably photograph it
next to a reference using a fine grain BW film.  The cathode can be slowly
allowed to cool naturally, and then placed in a vacuum to pull the rest of
the gas out to the degree with which you are satisfied.  It should be
examined afterward for cracks and so forth with a SEM to determine what
loading stresses it can handle.  W is quite brittle, and there is definitely
going to be a temperature and loading ratio set of parameters that will need
to be characterized for each variation of that material.  To do a really
good job of measuring it would require you to design a good protocol, and
would require reading the literature, and getting opinions, etc., and this
in itself could occupy you for several weeks, but the data that it would
provide you would be quite helpful.  I think that this is an especially
important and necessary step to take with any cathode material, but with a
cathode that is sintered or that is not or cannot be purified and melted
into crystaline matrix, I think that it is very important.  We still haven't
determined that your foils are not sintered, or Mizuno's for that matter.
This is assuming, of course, that you still want to want to initiate and
adequately substantiate a nuclear reaction over and above the complex
chemical reactions.

There are a number of other things you could tightenen up on, or verify,
such as the effect of the magnetic stirring on the amount of gas produced.
You could figure out a way, even a quick and dirty one, to actually measure
the heat output of your external gas route.  I like the external gas route,
and the thermometer is a nice touch.  I didn't realize, for example, that
the catalyst needed to "kick in".  It still is not calorimetry, and that's
my pet quiblet.  You could vacuum the recombiner beads before each run.  You
could put all your data and formulae into spreadsheet format, and put that
into zip files along with your reports.  We could verify your math and
formulae for you to make sure that you haven't made any of the simpler
mistakes.  Everyone makes those kinds of errors in while programming, so
nobody expects you to do everything right.  You could put the MSDS for all
of the materials up on your site with the reports.  You could do an
inventory on your website of all your equipment, and with permssion, all of
the specs for it.  You could get an EMF spectrum analyzer, as Horace
suggested, if you've got the scratch, and start looking at that data.  You
could do a lot of things before you use those Mizuno cathodes.  You could
take a week off, come back, tear the whole thing apart, and start again from
scratch. 8^)

The important thing is that you really are no longer under any pressure or
obligation to prove or disprove the fact that nuclear reactions can take
place on a table top.  You've already proven that with your Farnsworth
replication, as have others.  The LLNL laser experiments have shown this
without a doubt as well.  I would work on beefing up the safety protocols at
your lab, so that you don't hurt yourself, and to let people know that you
are not a crackpot scientist on overdrive.  Humor me, and take pictures of
your fire extinguishers.  You do have them, of course.  Show me those
shields, sandbag walls, and scintilators.  Forget about the political stuff,
investor pressures, and other peoples' publishing deadlines, and do
thoughtful, safe, research, otherwise everybody will think you are a nuclear
cowboy that uses his head.  The only thing in this line of work that you
should be doing quickly is cashing your paycheck.:)  You've been one of the
best sources of unbiased data to the general public, we all appreciate it,
and with time, you should be writing reports that exceed the Nobel
Laureates' with regard to completeness and excellence.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 12:16:31 1999
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Hi Horace,

Sorry about not getting back to you sooner, but somebody nuked my machine
again, AND changed the password on my server.  I just now got back online:(

I'd like to try this idea.  It's completely over my head as to the
capacitative motor idea.  Wouldn't this be considered an inductive coupling,
rather than a capacitance.  Like I said it's over my head.

I'm ordering the Wiseman books today for a normal generator, and should have
them in maybe 12 days.  Your post previous to this one inspired a several
other approaches in my mind, and then that inspired another several CF cell
design ideas, but to build them I would need a welder, and then I
rememebered.  I need a WELDER! :-)  Do you mind if I pass some of these
ideas along to the Wiseman group?

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 12:20:19 1999
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Subject: Re: Particles of conductor in cell Re: A Brown's gas generator design
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Extensive Info about Brown's Gas is available at
http://www.eagle-research.com/


At 2:21 PM 6/18/99, John Schnurer wrote:
>
> Dear Vo.,
>
> Comments, notes questions:
>
> 1] In general elecrticity takes the path of least resistance....
> the conductor particles may provide such a preferential path, thereby
> reducing the useful current through the electrolyte.
>
> 2] "Brown's Gas" .... What is it?  If it is a mixture of  O and H
> ... maybe with water vapor as well  .... Then how do you run fuel cell
> with the mixed gas?  Is it not true the fuel cells need separate O and H?
>
> 3] It seems safer and more useful, from an economic stand poit to
> use a design which gives O and H as separate gas outputs.  This can have
> several benefits, including but not limited to:
> a] safer storage
> b] variable control of combustion mixturee
> c] allws sale of two marketable products... O and H
>
> 4] Q:   Are there any benefits to having a mixture and no choice
> in the matter as opposed to separate O and H?  It seems separate gasses
> are more useful.
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 12:26:34 1999
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I have prepared a hopefully interesting and comprehensible saga describing
recent adventures while trying to improve the inlet water temperature
regulation on our Versatile Water-Flow Calorimeter.

http://www.eden.com/~little/vwfc/lwb.html

We succeeded in making great improvements in the Tin stability.  It's what
happened next that was an adventure.  It's not a big deal...in fact I would
recommend it only for calorimetry buffs.  Others will be bored...or will
wonder why we spend our time on such matters....<g>





Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 12:32:12 1999
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 15:33:20 -0400
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Scott,

The plot of Mizuno's Pin and Icell appear to have a
lot more low frequency noise like variation than these parameters
in the plots of your runs. This, along with the lack
of passive filtering  does suggest the
possibility of sampling inaccuracies and incorrect
Pin measurement.
- 
Series inductance is clearly present
in the cell leads which could  have significant affects 
on the arc/spark characteristics of the cell and
possible OU behavior.
>From the photo on your site, the distance between your
cell and the power supply looks quite long. With the
frequencies present in sparks, lead dress, conductor
spacing and length could all be important variables.
What is the actual power lead type, length, and where and how
are the connections to the power analyzer made?
It would be a good idea to obtain similar information from
Mizuno for his setup, as well as more information about
his power analyzer.
Regards,
George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
1924 US Hwy 22 East        Bound Brook NJ 08805

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At 10:24 6/18/99 EDT, BriggsRO aol.com wrote:

>Scott, can you adjust the sampeling rate of the Clarke Hess to duplicate 
>mizuno's instrument?

I doubt it.  For one thing I can't really understand how M's unit works
yet.  He has explained it to me but the words don't make sense.

>If not, one quick way to test this hypothesis to 
>measure your input power with an old fashioned d.c. D'arsonval  voltmeter
and 
>current meter.  If you get 150% o-u  this way and not with the C-H you can 
>look further into Mizuno's method.

Yes, I'll try this on the next run.  Thanks



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 13:03:30 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
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At 11:00 6/18/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>I wrote: "The flow rate is reduced to boost the cell temperature." Since
>the graph shows Tcell does not change, that's obviously not quite right.

It goes up a little but only from 70 to about 75C.  It is interesting to
note that he got excess heat at this relatively low temperature.

>There is no on-line display of total enthalpy.

He's got that tabulated in the spread sheet data.

At 15:33 6/18/99 -0400, George Holz wrote:

>The plot of Mizuno's Pin and Icell appear to have a
>lot more low frequency noise like variation than these parameters
>in the plots of your runs. This, along with the lack
>of passive filtering  does suggest the
>possibility of sampling inaccuracies and incorrect
>Pin measurement.

Right.  Doesn't it strike you as strange that the Pout is virtually
constant while the Pin is wandering around?
 
>What is the actual power lead type, length, and where and how
>are the connections to the power analyzer made?

It's pretty crude.  I'm using zip cord, the stuff that cheap extension
cords are made of.  A 4' long piece of it leads from the power analyzer to
the cell.  The power analyzer has a V channel which is connected across the
load (actually  across the zip cord, 4' away from the load) and an I
channel which is place in series with the load, in this case on the power
supply side of the V connections (the V channel input impedance is
negligible compared to the loadin this case).

>It would be a good idea to obtain similar information from
>Mizuno for his setup, as well as more information about
>his power analyzer.

Yes.  His "power analyzer" is actually just a data logger...the Advantest
R7326B.  They've got a .pdf brochure on their web site which describes it.
Please read about it and then I'll post what Mizuno said about how he's
using it.  Maybe we can piece it together.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 13:19:50 1999
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Subject: Re: Murray: Rothwell: Storms: the kettle and the pot 6.17.99
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At 10:11 6/18/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:

>I checked my sample of United Catalyst G75E, the batch used by Case, with a
>Geiger counter and detected no radiation above background.

I looked at mine (G75E) with a 2" x 2" NaI scintillator, considerably more
sensitive than a typical Geiger counter, and got the same result.

>We can not
>be too careful, but we need to agree that the phenomenon is real and is
>worth the trouble.....

I'm certainly willing to agree that the phenomenon is worth the
trouble...but I'm still not convinced that it's real.  I guess I'm just
harder to convince than you are...and apparently far less trusting of the
reported results of others.

Say, that reminds me of our little wager.  Are you actively running Pd/D2O
cells again now?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 13:30:59 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
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At 15:03 6/18/99 -0500, Scott Little wrote:

>Right.  Doesn't it strike you as strange that the Pout is virtually
>constant while the Pin is wandering around?

Hey!  I finally figured out what was bothering me about this!  Look at
Mizuno's graph around time 14:34.  The Pin trace is making some big
up-and-down excursions which last about 3 minutes each but the Pout trace
is apparently not tracking them...yet the Pout response time (as evidence
by the rapid recovery at each flow rate change) is short enough that it
should be tracking those Pin excursions reasonably well.

This is the first evidence I've seen that suggests that maybe the Pin is
actually constant and that it's only the reported Pin that's varying....and
thus wrong!

Here's something Mizuno said today about his current measurement when I
asked about the 1.1 factor in the spreadsheet formulas:

>Yes you are right:The factor 1.1 is the coefficient for the current
>calibration, because I measured the current through a series of two of
>resistants of 50 and 5 Ohm that was fixed with the Shunt; I have to decrease
>the voltage because the my setting of logger only can measure up to 50mV.
>I also the voltage using two of resistants of 100k and 1k Ohm.

It worries me that his final signal going into the data logger is only 0-50
mV in this noisy environment.  On the other hand, look at his voltage
signal...steady as a rock...and it's also a 0-50 mV signal.

Sigh.... a trip to Japan would be kinda fun, wouldn't it?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 13:36:06 1999
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Particles of conductor in cell Re: A Brown's gas generator design
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:35:03 -0400
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Horace wrote:

>At 2:21 PM 6/18/99, John Schnurer wrote:
>>        Dear Vo.,
>>
>>        Comments, notes questions:
>>
>>        1] In general elecrticity takes the path of least resistance....
>>the conductor particles may provide such a preferential path, thereby
>>reducing the useful current through the electrolyte.
>
>
>The current through the electrolyte surves no useful purpose.  It converts
>energy to heat, thuse reducing the efficiency of the electrolyser.
>Reduction of this value is the main objective of the design.
-
Your correction to John's comment is correct, but this efficiency question
with particle filled electrolytes is actually quite complex and probably
a function of the particle fill volume percentage. It is not at all clear
that particle filled cells offer increased efficiency. Look at the case with
few particles present and examine the expected efficiency. 
-
Also, be careful with using RF frequencies for electrolysis, it is quite
easy to get large recombination losses at and near the electrodes and
very low efficiency with RF excitation.
-
Regards,
George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
1924 US Hwy 22 East        Bound Brook NJ 08805
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 13:45:12 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Scott,

Good work and valuable ideas for me in construction of NERL's water flow
calorimeter.  I have not had the same success achieving Tin stability and
this is probably due to insufficient thermal mass of the heat exchanger.  I
plan to get around this problem by amplitude modulating the Peltier devices
instead of pulse-width modulation.  The idea I have for improvement is
rather similar to your radiator design, which would ensure that the Peltier
devices are almost always running in heating mode.

One suggestion:  the 0.964 heat recovery is quite impressive, but wouldn't
it be better characterized by a first order linear function of the
temperature difference between the DUT and room temperature?

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 13:46:35 1999
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At 11:32 AM 6/15/1999 -0500, John Logajan wrote:

>It is well known that they use uranium for artillery shells (it is
>depleted of specific isotopes, which have been removed for their
>nuclear uses.)  Uranium is dense and hard.  More mass in a smaller
>package would indeed reduce air drag over a similar less dense but
>equal mass of metal, such as iron.
 
    Actually, it is mostly used in anti-armor rounds,, and although the
density helps, the reason for using Uranium is that when it penetrates
armor, it produces lots of high temperature fragments which burn.  The idea
is to "cook off" the tank by exploding its own ammunition.  A one inch hole
through a tank may not do much damage, but if it is made by a DU round, it
will usually kill the crew and cause an explosion.  (Which lets the tank
that fired the round know they can target someone else.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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Subject: Calorimetry buffs
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I have prepared a hopefully interesting and comprehensible saga describing
recent adventures while trying to improve the inlet water temperature
regulation on our Versatile Water-Flow Calorimeter.

http://www.eden.com/~little/vwfc/lwb.html

We succeeded in making great improvements in the Tin stability.  It's what
happened next that was an adventure.  It's not a big deal...in fact I would
recommend it only for calorimetry buffs.  Others will be bored...or will
wonder why we spend our time on such matters....<g>





Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 14:28:55 1999
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:21:02 -0400
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Scott wrote:

>>Right.  Doesn't it strike you as strange that the Pout is virtually
>>constant while the Pin is wandering around?
-
yes
-
>Hey!  I finally figured out what was bothering me about this!  Look at
>Mizuno's graph around time 14:34.  The Pin trace is making some big
>up-and-down excursions which last about 3 minutes each but the Pout trace
>is apparently not tracking them...yet the Pout response time (as evidence
>by the rapid recovery at each flow rate change) is short enough that it
>should be tracking those Pin excursions reasonably well.
-
I'm not that familiar with Mizuno's setup, but wouldn't it be expected
to have a shorter time constant for flow rate changes than for Pin
changes?
-
I found the Advantest site, but I can't find anything about the R7326B.
Could you post the url?
-
Regards,
George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
1924 US Hwy 22 East        Bound Brook NJ 08805


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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
References: <01beb9d0$77d29c60$0c6cd626 george.varisys.com>
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Try the Japanese site:

http://www.advantest.co.jp/catalog-e/ePDF/WE332.pdf

Terry

George Holz wrote:
> 
> Scott wrote:
> 
> >>Right.  Doesn't it strike you as strange that the Pout is virtually
> >>constant while the Pin is wandering around?
> -
> yes
> -
> >Hey!  I finally figured out what was bothering me about this!  Look at
> >Mizuno's graph around time 14:34.  The Pin trace is making some big
> >up-and-down excursions which last about 3 minutes each but the Pout trace
> >is apparently not tracking them...yet the Pout response time (as evidence
> >by the rapid recovery at each flow rate change) is short enough that it
> >should be tracking those Pin excursions reasonably well.
> -
> I'm not that familiar with Mizuno's setup, but wouldn't it be expected
> to have a shorter time constant for flow rate changes than for Pin
> changes?
> -
> I found the Advantest site, but I can't find anything about the R7326B.
> Could you post the url?
> -
> Regards,
> George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
> 732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
> 1924 US Hwy 22 East        Bound Brook NJ 08805

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 15:21:14 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Murray: Rothwell: Storms: the kettle and the pot 6.17.99
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:23:11 -0400
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Ed wrote:
>I checked my sample of United Catalyst G75E, the batch used by Case, with a
>Geiger counter and detected no radiation above background.  If the helium
>resulted from U or Th decay, the the presence of these elements would be
>easy to detect.  Absence of these elements is understandable because the
>carbon is made, I understand, from coconut shells which are very unlikely
>to contain these elements.

Well Ed, even that could be a problem depending on where the coconuts came
from, and I'm not joking at all.  There was an incident at Kodak where they
were developing an improved film emulsion and associated developing
chemistry.  This takes years to do properly, and the product must be
consistent and reliable before any mass distribution can occur.  Typically,
they will test market and co-develop the improvements regionally in field
test labs for 2 years - after the rigorous in-house work is done.  In one
instance, they came right up to the week that they were going to begin the
field test distribution, and the film just quit working altogether.  They
had been working for a number of years to get everything dialed in, and the
process just stopped working.  Kodak hires some of the best chemists on
Earth, and they pay really well.  At that time, they had a corporate mindset
like IBM in the 60's.  They of course, had to spend an inordinate amount of
time checking and rechecking their own procedures, and then they went
looking to their suppliers to see what had been changed in the raw
materials.  It turned out that a part of the emulsion was being made from
the bone marrow of a group of cows that were specific to one of the
suppliers, and that the farmer had made a change in his feed supplier, which
changed the content of the bone marrow to enough of a degree that if
affected the chemistry of a process two links away in the manufacturing
chain.  This may sound unlikely, but it is true, and that stuff happens.
Any complex manufacturing process is influenced by a huge number of
variables, all legitimate, and some improtant to the end product.  Those
coconuts may have come from the Bikini Atoll or something like that for all
we know.  It's not out of the question.  Trace quantities of N products
would only produce their by products in noticable amounts over a long period
of time in a good storage container.  The Case Cell.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 15:24:32 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:24:55 -0400
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Terry wrote:

>Try the Japanese site:
>
>http://www.advantest.co.jp/catalog-e/ePDF/WE332.pdf
>
Thanks Terry, this is just what we need.
-
The A/D converter is described as a "Variable integrating type"
with "integrating time of 1 ms, 5 ms, 10 ms, 1 PLC, 2 PLC, 5 PLC". 
-
This sounds like it is not an appropriate instrument for
the desired rms current measurement of a signal with
significant high frequency pulse current content.
-
I don't see any mention of rms current measurement 
capability in the spec.
-
Regards,
George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
1924 US Hwy 22 East            Bound Brook NJ 08805

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 15:27:55 1999
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Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 14:06:50 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: A Brown's gas generator design
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At 3:18 PM 6/18/99, Michael T Huffman wrote:
>Hi Horace,
>
>Sorry about not getting back to you sooner, but somebody nuked my machine
>again, AND changed the password on my server.  I just now got back online:(
>
>I'd like to try this idea.  It's completely over my head as to the
>capacitative motor idea.  Wouldn't this be considered an inductive coupling,
>rather than a capacitance.  Like I said it's over my head.

It's capacitive for sure.  There are two capacitors (e, g, the insulating
sides) in series with the electrolyte. The moving plate coming and going,
making its charge come and go, is the same as a current coming and going
charging a static plate.  The electrolyte carries the current between the
innermost surfaces of the two insulators.  It takes a high RPM and a very
high voltage to get much current through the electrolyte.  I like the idea
mainly because it strikes me as a novel way to convert mechanical energy to
chemical energy.  It may not have much utility.  It is not an essential
part of the design.  In fact, I would probably that version one unless I
was going to try to close the loop.  I would probably build a capacitive
generator separately for experimental purposes initially.  I like the idea
of using a simple spark gap oscillator for a quick and dirty approach.

I think the interesting thing would be experimenting with the metal slurrys.


>
>I'm ordering the Wiseman books today for a normal generator, and should have
>them in maybe 12 days.  Your post previous to this one inspired a several
>other approaches in my mind, and then that inspired another several CF cell
>design ideas, but to build them I would need a welder, and then I
>rememebered.  I need a WELDER! :-)  Do you mind if I pass some of these
>ideas along to the Wiseman group?

I would like that very much.  Thanks.  Maybe someone has already tried slurries.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Re: Depleted Uranium
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Horace,

You wrote:

>In fact, I think the shells are covered with a non-uranium outer metal jacket.


Yes, it is called a Sabot.

http://www.pica.army.mil/orgs/fsac/sad/1995/sepoct/art4pg1.html

Bill
webriggs concentric.net

This article, by Captain Pat Paulsen, appeared on pages 33 and 34 of the 
July-August 1995 issue of "ARMOR"

After Operation DESERT STORM, it comes as no surprise that depleted
uranium, or "DU," forms a vital new part of our modern arsenal. Currently
increasing both the protection of armor and the effectiveness of sabot
penetrators, DU rounds are also used in the A10's 30-mm gun and under
development for the Bradley's 25-mm cannon. However, users of depleted
uranium need to understand the possible hazards of our latest technological
wonder to help improve their effectiveness on the battlefield.

Basics

Radioactivity is the spontaneous emission (or "spitting" of alpha and beta
particles or gamma rays from an atom as it decays into a different element.
These emissions are called ionizing radiation. Depleted uranium is uranium
ore that has been processed to remove the material useful for nuclear
reactor fuel and nuclear weapons. Since the type of uranium ore that is left,
U238, makes up about 99 percent of uranium ore, plenty of depleted
uranium is available to anyone with either nuclear reactors or weapons
programs. This residue is a dense, heavy metal with a limited health hazard,
that is still easily made into various products.

DU has two properties that make it ideal for military applications: it's
extremely dense, and its surface ignites on impact (especially with steel). 
Unfortunately, most soldiers stop reading about DU
when they get to the word "uranium" and immediately assume that it's radio-
active and will kill them unless they take elaborate
precautions. WRONG! DU mainly emits "alpha" radiation. Although alpha may
cause the most damage to cells and tissue (compared to beta and gamma), they
can't penetrate heavy clothing or skin. The beta and gamma radiation emitted
by DU, even inside a tank fully uploaded with DU sabot rounds, is usually
less than normal background radiation at many locations around the world.

Hazards

The two main concerns about depleted uranium are heavy metal toxicity and
slight radioactivity. Like lead and other heavy metals, DU is a poison inside
the body (primarily to the kidneys). DU does not present an immediate external 
hazard, but is an internal hazard if a soldier has open cuts or sores on the
skin where the DU could enter the body. The internal hazard from radiation
depends on how much DU is inhaled, swallowed, or gets under the skin. The
alpha particles emitted by DU are most hazardous inside the body where the
short range but high ionization of the particles damage internal tissues.

As a heavy metal (like lead), DU may make soldiers sick if eaten, inhaled,
or it gets under the skin (through open cuts or wounds).

The greatest hazard from DU is the dust formed from impacts or burning. DU, 
basically, rusts when exposed to air, turning a dull black color. Impacts or
fires can cause DU shrapnel or DU dust. This heavy black dust should be easy
to identify if people take care to be aware of their surroundings. The main
hazard of DU is inhaling the dust or accidentally picking it up and
swallowing it if gloves aren't worn and the dust is not washed off before 
eating, drinking, or using the latrine.

Since DU dust is much heavier than normal dust, it is usually deposited within 
50 meters downwind of the fire that generated it.  The major long-term hazard
from DU dust or other contamination is contamination of the ground and water 
supply. Take care to ensure mess, shower, and bivouac sites are not in an area
of either known DU contamination or where DU dust may have been carried by
recent rains, etc.

Identification

DU penetrator impacts are easily identified. In addition to the usual small, 
well-defined impact hole, the DU penetrator deforms very little passing
through the target and has an exit hole only slightly larger than the entry 
hole. Both holes will register as slightly radioactive on radiac detectors.
DU contamination includes penetrator parts, spalling, and dull black heavy
dust found close to the impact or fire. DU contamination can be detected by
AN/VDR-2 and AN/PDR-27 radiac meters, and the only way to confirm DU
contamination is to identify the slight radioactivity where you wouldn't 
normally expect to find any.

Avoidance & Protection

The basic principles of radioactive hazard avoidance are to minimize the 
exposure time to the radioactivity, maximize the distance between soldiers
and the radioactive source, and use shielding (in this case, even cardboard, 
tape, and layers of paint are effective). The objective is to avoid
contaminating soldiers and equipment and minimize the spread of contamination
(specifically the DU dust). Mechanic's coveralls, BDUs, leather gloves, and
BDOs won't allow the alpha particles from DU to penetrate to the skin.
Protective masks should be worn for respiratory protection, or, if only working 
around the equipment for a few minutes a cravat (bandanna) over the mouth and
nose or a dust mask will protect for short exposures. If anyone is injured
while working around DU equipment or wreckage, rinse out any cuts with water as 
soon as possible in addition to normal medical care and use a radiac meter to
confirm any suspected DU contamination for appropriate additional medical
treatment.

If you find radioactive DU contamination on a vehicle, move the vehicle to a 
site away from water sources, food storage or eating areas, and occupied
bivouac sites. Brush, scrape, or wash off the loose radioactive dust from 
yourself or equipment, staying aware of where it goes. Clean up or mark the
area as needed. Fixed (non-moveable) or embedded DU contamination
should be covered with duct tape or cardboard (alpha and beta radiation are
the primary emissions from DU, so covering it over with adequate shielding will
reduce exposure). If the measured level of radiation in the vehicle is less
than .005 cGy/hr (centigray/hour) and the vehicle is operational or can be
repaired at unit level, it can be used to complete the mission (based on a
maximum unrestricted individual exposure of .10 cGy). Either remove the 
contamination or tape over it if you can't and, unless the vehicle needs to be
repaired, it's able to continue the mission until you conduct radiological 
decon. Of course, always keep personnel away from contaminated equipment or
terrain unless required to complete the mission. Report all DU
contamination up command channels immediately after confirmation of the hazard.

Awareness of DU hazards and simple, common sense procedures will deal 
effectively with the problem and protect soldiers.  Bottom line: unless
personnel are directly involved in a detonation or fire with DU, hazards are 
relatively small and simple procedures provide effective protection. Address
any additional questions regarding depleted uranium to:

     Commander U.S. Army Chemical School,
     ATTN: Director,
     Edwin R. Bradley Radiological Laboratories,
     Ft. McClellan, AL 36205-5000
     DSN: 865-4489 or Commercial: (205) 848-4489


References:

   CPT Doug Rokke, Ph.D., 1LT John Shank, & SFC Susan Wright. "Introduction To 
   Depleted Uranium."

   USACMLS. Tier 1 Awareness, Depleted Uranium and Low-Level Radiological
   Hazard Training Packet. 13 Oct 94 Draft.

   Conversations with CPT Doug Rokke and SFC Dante Laciste, USACMLS Edwin R. 
   Bradley Radiological Laboratories.

   FM 3-3 Contamination Avoidance.

   FM 3-4 NBC Protection.

   FM 3-5 Decontamination.



Captain Pat Paulsen is a Distinguished Military Graduate of North Georgia 
College. He is currently the NBC Detachment Commander in the 5th Special Forces 
Group (Airborne) at Ft. Campbell, Ky., after a tour at Ft. Carson, Colo., and
completing the Chemical Officer's Advance Course. He has been the Chemical 
Officer for a divisional cavalry squadron, mechanized infantry and field
artillery battalions, and platoon leader for cavalry scout, mechanized smoke,
and support platoons.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 15:40:15 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Particles of conductor in cell Re: A Brown's gas generator design
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George, thanks for the comments.

At 4:35 PM 6/18/99, George Holz wrote:
[snip]
>Your correction to John's comment is correct, but this efficiency question
>with particle filled electrolytes is actually quite complex and probably
>a function of the particle fill volume percentage.

Yes, this is what I was getting at when I said: "The slurry should be
comprised of a large percentage of bubble forming particles."  It is
difficult to estimate the best volume percentage, and the effective
percentage changes as bubbles form on the particles. There is also the
problem of pumping around a heavy slurry.  It would be nice to use
aluminum, but that requires a good choice of electrolyte, and still would
probably disintegrate.  Possbily metal coated beads would be the thing.


>It is not at all clear
>that particle filled cells offer increased efficiency. Look at the case with
>few particles present and examine the expected efficiency.


Yes that would defeat the ojectives of maximizing the equivalent number of
plates and minimizing the equivalent plate separation.


>-
>Also, be careful with using RF frequencies for electrolysis, it is quite
>easy to get large recombination losses at and near the electrodes and
>very low efficiency with RF excitation.

Yes.  That is a problem.  Recombination is even a (minor) effect seen in DC
cells.  If operation is limited to lower frequencies then capacitive cell
coupling would have to go.

One of the interesting facets is the effect of particle size.  Bigger seems
to be better in that, to get effective electrolysis, you need around a
couple volts across each particle.  The operating voltage can be estimated
my V = 2d/s volts, where s is particle radius, d is plate separation.
Smaller is better when considering the ojectives of maximizing the
equivalent number of plates and minimizing the equivalent plate separation.
A balance must be reached.  The procedure for doing this is to load up a
slurry and increase the plate voltage until an optimum energy per gas
volume is reached.  If the maximum plate voltage (set by the insulator
breakdown voltage) is reached without finding an optimal point, then the
plates must be placed closer together and the procedure repeated.

Another problem is that the high operating voltages require thick
insulators, which reduces the cell capacitance, which reduces the rms
current and/or drives up the operating frequency.  Operating the cell as
the capacitor in a resonant tank circuit, as discussed prior, should help
operating efficiency though.

The abrasive nature of a slurry mostly comprised of metal is not good for
the insulators either.  The bubble forming particles probably should be
spherical.

One item of interest is the fact that bubbles, and especially bubble
chains, form in the electrolyte itself, typically at electrode edges.  This
is noted in the Puharich patent.  Also, the BG work group web page notes
that bubbles seem to form between the plates.  It is difficult to tell if
having a huge surface area and lots of connecting pathways will improve the
BG generator performance or kill the useful effects.


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 15:44:17 1999
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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Re: Is the ion drive EHD/ARDA?
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All,

Thanks Tanker Bob (Robert)

We can assume with your background you know whereof ye speak.

Bill
webriggs concentric.net

<snip>

>    Actually, it is mostly used in anti-armor rounds,, and although the
>density helps, the reason for using Uranium is that when it penetrates
>armor, it produces lots of high temperature fragments which burn.  The idea
>is to "cook off" the tank by exploding its own ammunition.  A one inch hole
>through a tank may not do much damage, but if it is made by a DU round, it
>will usually kill the crew and cause an explosion.  (Which lets the tank
>that fired the round know they can target someone else.)

>                                       Robert I. Eachus

<old snip>

>Me, I find the idea of owning a tank way out in left field, even though I was
>a tanker in the service.

>                                       Robert I. Eachus

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 15:59:45 1999
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Dear Vo,

A few weeks ago a thread appeared on Vortex concerning the decay characteristics
of the potassium 40 isotope and its potential effects in LENR, including
possibly the Mills' BLP reaction.

To reiterate some points, K40 is a "very strange isotope" occurring in nature as
only one part in 10,000, with a half life of over a billion years and a beta
decay energy of 1.35 Mev, but also an EC mode (89% of the decays are beta-
decays).  The principle isotope 39K (natural abundance 93.2581 percent)  does
not capture electrons nor does 41K (natural abundance 6.7302 percent).

The low natural occurrence of K40 would seem to indicate that its effect in LENR
should be minimal. However, new studies and information is turning up  - the
implications of which might challenge that notion. This also might open up a
whole new field of inquiry relating to accelerated decay in K40, not unlike the
accelerated decay that has been the subject of several posts surrounding the
Barker patents. As mentioned several times, John Schnurer has replicated of the
Barker effect (accelerated alpha decay in radioactive minerals using a VDG at 40
kev).

Professor Roy K. Hammack  has conducted a rather exhaustive study of minerals
found under high voltage power lines and conducted subsequent laboratory
experiments using a VDG similar to the Barker patents. The results are leading
at least a few individuals (who, like myself, have little in the way of
reputation to protect) to the inescapable conclusion that radioactive decay
constants are anything but "constant." The evidence mounts!

The paper is INVESTIGATIONS OF THE EFFECTS OF NATURAL AND ARTIFICIAL ELECTRIC
AND MAGNETIC  FIELDS ON RADIOACTIVE DECAY Copyright © 1997 by Roy K. Hammack
Johnson County Community College 12345 College Blvd. Overland Park, KS 66210.

To quote: "Further evidence that there is a real change occurring when
radioisotopes are exposed to combined EM fields can be seen by looking at the
huge changes in the energy maximum of emitted beta particles (E Bmax ) and the
changes in half life. The E Bmax of K 40 exposed to NN ( Table 9A ) was 110.34%
higher than the unexposed and the E Bmax for PP exposure was 107.84% of the
unexposed. The calculated half life (using procedure shown on pages 108 - 110 in
Chase and Rabinowitz ) for K 40 exposed to NN was 88.44% of the unexposed." (NN
is his terminology for a pulsed negative charge).

Although the above quoted increased decay activity is not extraordinary, some of
the Barker claims are worth noting. The accelerated decay process apparently has
a significant time and power input delay and threshold. That is, the sample must
be exposed or irradiated for several days to weeks.

The main point is that it is appearing more and more certain that the weak force
interaction can be externally altered to some degree, and that the alteration is
time dependent. The rest is up to the tinkerers and engineers. Of course, we
should be aware that an increase of many orders of magnitude in the decay rate
would be needed for cost effective power extraction.

I am presently in touch with professor Hammack and he has agreed to share his
experiences in this field.

I am also in the process of designing and constructing a small cross-field NMR
type reactor to test my theory that decay rate can be accelerated not only by by
high field gradient, but perhaps even more so by a combination of electric and
magnetic field resonance interactions.

I am now wondering how difficult it would be to significantly enrich K40 over
its natural abundance. Does anyone on vortex have insight here? Perhaps there is
enough of a density gradient to suspect that an ultracentrifuge in several
stages would do the trick? Perhaps zone refining?

There would be several big advantages to K40 as a "fuel" for a "beta-decay
direct conversion reactor": Potassium in mineral form is a cheap, high tonnage
commodity; K40 would have about a 250,000 to 1 advantage over fossil fuels in
extractable power density; "depleted" K is at least as valuable as natural; no
DoE restrictions; relatively easy shielding; safe spent fuel, etc. etc.

BTW, what I had in mind for fuel processing is something like an intermediary
step whereby a small percent of K (containing most of the K40) is removed (by
whatever process) from ore - before it is shipped to the fertilizer factory.
>From that intermediary processing step, secondary processing would then produce
a higher enrichment fuel.

Of course, all of this is far enough out there on the fringes to be labeled as
SciFi. I might as well call it dilithium crystals, but 'quien sabe?' As someone
on Vortex remarked recently, "40K has special properties with regard to electron
capture and a special ability to do weak force magic."

How about it Horace, Fred and other Vortex designated speculators?

Regards,
Jones Beene



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 16:18:45 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 19:14:58 EDT
Subject: PLEC:  Molarity of the Electrolyte?
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In Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990616213750.00918280 mail.eden.com>, Scott 
wondered if he should try 0.2 molar K2CO3, which is what Mizuno seems to use 
most of the time, instead of the 0.1 molar K2CO3 that Scott had been using.

I'm not an electrochemist, but the strength of the electrolyte does sound 
like an important variable in any kind of electrolysis experiment.  So what 
does Mizuno generally use, 0.1 M potassium carbonate or 0.2 M potassium 
carbonate?  If both, has he found any difference in cell performance using 
the one molarity versus the other?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 16:37:34 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC:  Molarity of the Electrolyte?
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At 07:14 PM 6/18/99 EDT, Tstolper aol.com wrote:

>So what 
>does Mizuno generally use, 0.1 M potassium carbonate or 0.2 M potassium 
>carbonate?  If both, has he found any difference in cell performance using 
>the one molarity versus the other?

He has just expressed a mild-sounding favor towards 0.2M, which I will use
in future runs.  I"m guessing that he hasn't really observed a strong
correlation with o-u performance.



Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 16:52:34 1999
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Message-Id: <199906182347.TAA13564 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Cold Fusion Yo-Yo
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 19:49:31 -0000
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From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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All,

I caught a brief news story on ABC Nightly news about advanced Yo-Yo 's 
now on the market. One of the best ones they said was the "Cold Fusion 
Yo-Yo" -- the name was mentioned at least five times. It is apparently 
very well designed, versatile, and expensive -- I think they said $150.00 
 It calls goes for a long time without much input...like cold fusion.

I am sure this toy must be on a www site somewhere.

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 16:52:39 1999
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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199906182351.SAA10521 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Depleted Uranium
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b3900949a47a [12.21.208.201]> from Horace Heffner at "Jun 18, 99 07:17:05 am"
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Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:50:53 -0500 (CDT)
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Horace Heffner wrote:
> Also notable is that a uranium ceramic would have less density and thus be
> less effective than pure metal in a projectile.

This may be true in fact, but it is at least possibly not true.  Protons and
neutrons are roughly the same size in the nucleus, so the heavier elemental
nucleuses are only a small portion of the atomic volume -- it is the
electron cloud that really increases in volume.

Interestingly there are (if memory serves me) a number of elements with
rougly the same magnitude of density -- the increase in the heavy
nuclear components is offset by the increase in the electron cloud size.

If some chemical arrangements of uranium with other elements allow a more
efficient electron cloud packing, it is at least conceivable that uranium
chemical compounds could be slightly denser than the pure metal.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 17:35:10 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
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At 06:24 PM 6/18/99 -0400, George Holz wrote:

>The A/D converter is described as a "Variable integrating type"
>with "integrating time of 1 ms, 5 ms, 10 ms, 1 PLC, 2 PLC, 5 PLC". 
>-
>This sounds like it is not an appropriate instrument for
>the desired rms current measurement....

Wait a minute, George.  Since the voltage is very constant, we don't want
rms current.  We want average current.  As I mentioned to Mitchell Jones,
it seems to me that almost any regular sampling device will produce an
accurate average current from a randomly spiking waveform.  Yes, Mitchell
dreamed up a scenario that would foil a regular-interval sampling device
but it would require crystal-clock stability in the load
waveform...something this experiment certainly does not have.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 17:35:19 1999
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Subject: RE: Calorimetry buffs
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At 04:42 PM 6/18/99 -0400, Ed Wall wrote:

>One suggestion:  the 0.964 heat recovery is quite impressive, but wouldn't
>it be better characterized by a first order linear function of the
>temperature difference between the DUT and room temperature?

Well of course it would!  Thanks for the suggestion.  In fact, that may
explain some of the minor deviations I see in the calibration data
points....and I've got all the data I need already.  Long ago I started
monitoring room temperature on all my calorimeter runs.  I'll let you know
how it looks.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 17:45:47 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion Yo-Yo
In-Reply-To: <199906182347.TAA13564 mercury.mv.net>
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At 07:49 PM 6/18/99 -0000, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>I caught a brief news story on ABC Nightly news about advanced Yo-Yo 's 
>now on the market. One of the best ones they said was the "Cold Fusion 
>Yo-Yo" 

Check it out at:

http://ssl1.nmia.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/whistler/shop.pl/page=4sale.html

Playmaxx Cold Fusion Ball Bearing Yo-Yo

The Cold Fusion from Playmaxx may be the ultimate in
Yo-Yo technology. This precision machined Aluminum
yo-yo features an advanced ball bearing axle system,
weight distribution, patented brake pad technology and
two-tone anodized yellow and black finish. It comes
with manual, replacement brake pads and strings, and
3 switchable fixed axles (1 brass & 2 different woods). 


The Cold Fusion is so high tech that it comes packaged in a metal
containment cannister.
This deluxe yo-yo package also comes with two specially made enamelled
lapel pins ...
One Cold Fusion pin and one World Team Pro-Yo pin. The package sells for $125.
NOW IN STOCK AND READY TO SHIP !



Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 19:40:08 1999
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Message-ID: <376B00F6.9ABE1864 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 20:31:33 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Scott Little wrote:

>
> Say, that reminds me of our little wager.  Are you actively running Pd/D2O
> cells again now?

No, summer is here and this is my time to undo the physical damage winter has
done to my body.  I'm building stone walls instead, a far more lasting and
reproducible effort. Nevertheless, save your money because I will collect
sooner or later.

Ed Storms



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 20:38:37 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Is the ion drive EHD/ARDA?
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 23:41:09 -0400
Message-ID: <19990619034109609.AAA62 mail.lcia.com@lizard>
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>All,
>
>Thanks Tanker Bob (Robert)

They're called gun bunnies.

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 20:58:50 1999
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Message-ID: <376B12EF.78FC2A0 earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 21:47:59 -0600
From: "Richard T. Murray" <rmforall earthlink.net>
Organization: Room For All
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June 18, 1999   Here is a great site for data about all the elements:

WebElements  The periodic table on the WWW

http://www.shef.ac.uk/chemistry/web-elements/

Regards, Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 23:04:18 1999
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Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 00:59:35 -0500
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
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>At 06:24 PM 6/18/99 -0400, George Holz wrote:
>
>>The A/D converter is described as a "Variable integrating type"
>>with "integrating time of 1 ms, 5 ms, 10 ms, 1 PLC, 2 PLC, 5 PLC".
>>-
>>This sounds like it is not an appropriate instrument for
>>the desired rms current measurement....
>
>Wait a minute, George.  Since the voltage is very constant, we don't want
>rms current.  We want average current.  As I mentioned to Mitchell Jones,
>it seems to me that almost any regular sampling device will produce an
>accurate average current from a randomly spiking waveform.  Yes, Mitchell
>dreamed up a scenario that would foil a regular-interval sampling device
>but it would require crystal-clock stability in the load
>waveform

***{The example I gave involved a spike that fell at the same frequency as
the sampling frequency, but that is not necessary. All that is really
required is that the spike frequency be close enough to the sampling
frequency (or one of its nearby harmonics) so that the beat cycle is long
enough to fool a sophisticated power meter. If the spike drifts slowly
across the interval between samples, spending most of its time hitting in
the nulls, the experiment will look like it is "over  unity" during that
time frame, and, when the samples eventually begin to hit the spikes, the
experimenter will just conclude that the effect "turned off" for awhile.
:-) As for the more common instruments, which have lesser onboard
intelligence, not even the above-described degree of regularity will be
required: even random spikes will give such instruments fits. Thus until I
know some details about the type of instrument Mizuno is using, I am
unwilling to bet that he can handle even spikes of the random variety.
Frankly, the more I learn about his procedure, the less confidence I have
in it. --Mitchell Jones}***

...something this experiment certainly does not have.

***{Despite your claim of certainty, above, you do *not* know that the
required degree of stability isn't present. I can easily imagine that, out
of the buzzing chaos that is going on at the electrode surface, there are
regularities in the occurrence of arcs, and that some of those regularities
may carry significant portions of the total power. Thus if you get an
apparent large "over unity" result when you do a run, I will continue to
suspect a tuned-in artifact until you provide convincing evidence to the
contrary. Knowing no more than we know now, I am *not* willing to simply
assume that such an artifact cannot happen. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>Scott Little
>EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
>512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX)
>little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 23:04:19 1999
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Murray: Rothwell: Storms: the kettle and the pot 6.17.99
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>Ed wrote:
>>I checked my sample of United Catalyst G75E, the batch used by Case, with a
>>Geiger counter and detected no radiation above background.  If the helium
>>resulted from U or Th decay, the the presence of these elements would be
>>easy to detect.  Absence of these elements is understandable because the
>>carbon is made, I understand, from coconut shells which are very unlikely
>>to contain these elements.
>
>Well Ed, even that could be a problem depending on where the coconuts came
>from, and I'm not joking at all.  There was an incident at Kodak where they
>were developing an improved film emulsion and associated developing
>chemistry.  This takes years to do properly, and the product must be
>consistent and reliable before any mass distribution can occur.  Typically,
>they will test market and co-develop the improvements regionally in field
>test labs for 2 years - after the rigorous in-house work is done.  In one
>instance, they came right up to the week that they were going to begin the
>field test distribution, and the film just quit working altogether.  They
>had been working for a number of years to get everything dialed in, and the
>process just stopped working.  Kodak hires some of the best chemists on
>Earth, and they pay really well.  At that time, they had a corporate mindset
>like IBM in the 60's.  They of course, had to spend an inordinate amount of
>time checking and rechecking their own procedures, and then they went
>looking to their suppliers to see what had been changed in the raw
>materials.  It turned out that a part of the emulsion was being made from
>the bone marrow of a group of cows that were specific to one of the
>suppliers, and that the farmer had made a change in his feed supplier, which
>changed the content of the bone marrow to enough of a degree that if
>affected the chemistry of a process two links away in the manufacturing
>chain.  This may sound unlikely, but it is true, and that stuff happens.
>Any complex manufacturing process is influenced by a huge number of
>variables, all legitimate, and some improtant to the end product.  Those
>coconuts may have come from the Bikini Atoll or something like that for all
>we know.  It's not out of the question.  Trace quantities of N products
>would only produce their by products in noticable amounts over a long period
>of time in a good storage container.  The Case Cell.

***{An excellent point, and well made. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Knuke
>
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 23:35:37 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: K40 - the sequel
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At 7:59 AM 6/18/99, Jones Beene wrote:
[snip]
>I am now wondering how difficult it would be to significantly enrich K40 over
>its natural abundance. Does anyone on vortex have insight here?

[snip]
>How about it Horace, Fred and other Vortex designated speculators?


You might be able to buy K40 enriched material at a reasonable cost for
research purposes.  Of course you are aware that any neutron source can
obviously enrich K39 to K40.  I can speculate on a method of separation,
but I won't discuss it publically as it also applies to U235.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 23:40:29 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 02:44:13 -0400
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Mitch wrote:
>***{Despite your claim of certainty, above, you do *not* know that the
>required degree of stability isn't present. I can easily imagine that, out
>of the buzzing chaos that is going on at the electrode surface, there are
>regularities in the occurrence of arcs, and that some of those regularities
>may carry significant portions of the total power. Thus if you get an
>apparent large "over unity" result when you do a run, I will continue to
>suspect a tuned-in artifact until you provide convincing evidence to the
>contrary. Knowing no more than we know now, I am *not* willing to simply
>assume that such an artifact cannot happen. --Mitchell Jones}***

Since Mizuno's power supply does not have the filtering that Scott's does, a
regular ripple related signal would be present at the cathode.  It seems to
me almost a certainty that this would affect the "randomness" of the spark
generation at some level.  To what degree, would have to be measured by an
analog device.  I don't think that it can account for a mis-measurment of
50% though, and if I were to guess, I would think that the influence would
be under 1%.  I think that there are enough other factors that would be more
significant, like a difference in material, loading protocol, and the heat
measurement of the gas exiting the cell.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 18 23:53:20 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Depleted Uranium
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At 6:50 PM 6/18/99, John Logajan wrote:

>If some chemical arrangements of uranium with other elements allow a more
>efficient electron cloud packing, it is at least conceivable that uranium
>chemical compounds could be slightly denser than the pure metal.

Good point.  If you throw out precious metals and rare elements you are
pretty much left with tungsten.  Maybe an alloy of W and U can be formed?
This might be stronger than uranium,  have a lower melting point than
tungsten, be easier to machine than tungsten, and even be heavier than U,
even if the electron packing is not more efficient.  Don't know about its
ability to flash, but it might make a good bunker buster tip.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 19 00:22:35 1999
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
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>Mitch wrote:
>>***{Despite your claim of certainty, above, you do *not* know that the
>>required degree of stability isn't present. I can easily imagine that, out
>>of the buzzing chaos that is going on at the electrode surface, there are
>>regularities in the occurrence of arcs, and that some of those regularities
>>may carry significant portions of the total power. Thus if you get an
>>apparent large "over unity" result when you do a run, I will continue to
>>suspect a tuned-in artifact until you provide convincing evidence to the
>>contrary. Knowing no more than we know now, I am *not* willing to simply
>>assume that such an artifact cannot happen. --Mitchell Jones}***
>
>Since Mizuno's power supply does not have the filtering that Scott's does, a
>regular ripple related signal would be present at the cathode.  It seems to
>me almost a certainty that this would affect the "randomness" of the spark
>generation at some level.  To what degree, would have to be measured by an
>analog device.  I don't think that it can account for a mis-measurment of
>50% though, and if I were to guess, I would think that the influence would
>be under 1%.

***{Agreed. If an arc regularity gives rise to Mizuno's numbers, I would
expect the cause to be in the the cathode itself, not in the power supply.
In other words, even if the voltage is locked down tight at the power
supply, there may be circumstances involving the cathode itself which cause
regular fluctuations in the current. To strongly discount this possibility,
in my view, would be to claim far more knowledge than we have about the
microphysics of this system. --Mitchell Jones}***

  I think that there are enough other factors that would be more
>significant, like a difference in material, loading protocol, and the heat
>measurement of the gas exiting the cell.
>
>Knuke
>
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 19 05:24:24 1999
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Message-ID: <19990619122230.4482.rocketmail web135.yahoomail.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 05:22:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: ron kita <tekcorman yahoo.com>
Subject: ANTIGRAVITY CONFERENCE/JUNE/RENO
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Jim Cox formerly of TRW SPACE PARK is hosting an
ANTIGRAVITY CONFERENCE   
JUNE27/27 at RENO NV

Details
http://www.padrak.com/AGNCONF99.html

Best,
Ron Kita


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 19 06:29:38 1999
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On Fri, 18 Jun 1999, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
>  It calls goes for a long time without much input...like cold fusion.
> 
> Gene Mallove

Self paraody? I'm sure you are confusing your input with your output.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 19 10:24:43 1999
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Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 12:25:36 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
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>Mitch wrote:
>>***{Despite your claim of certainty, above, you do *not* know that the
>>required degree of stability isn't present.

I've looked at the current traces with a scope (in fact some are included
in my earlier reports on this experiment) and there is no sign of the
highly regular periodicity that would be required to support your hypothesis.

At 02:44 AM 6/19/99 -0400, Michael T Huffman wrote:

>Since Mizuno's power supply does not have the filtering that Scott's does....

Our power supplies are nominally equivalent with Mizuno's having somewhat
better regulation specs.

BTW, thanks for your overall vote of confidence in my efforts here.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 19 11:21:57 1999
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Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 13:18:06 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
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>>Mitch wrote:
>>>***{Despite your claim of certainty, above, you do *not* know that the
>>>required degree of stability isn't present.
>
>I've looked at the current traces with a scope (in fact some are included
>in my earlier reports on this experiment) and there is no sign of the
>highly regular periodicity that would be required to support your hypothesis.

***{In order to have a rational basis for such a statement you would have
to know, at minimum, the sampling frequency of your meter and that of the
scope you are using, as well as the sample width of each. I say this
because your search for periodicity must focus on signal components that
occur at the frequency of your meter or its nearby harmonics, and because
if your scope is not *much* faster than your meter, such a search is
fruitless. In addition, remember that none of these considerations become
relevant until *after* you have reported significant "over unity" numbers,
which you haven't done yet. (It would be *very difficult* to find the cause
of the tiny anomaly which you reported in run 6 by eyeballing a scope
trace.) The time to start claiming that the spike hypothesis has been
refuted will be *after* you succeed in replicating Mizuno's results, not
before. (By the way: if you know the sampling frequencies and widths of
your meter and your scope, it would be useful to post them here. And
similar info about Mizuno's instruments would also be helpful.)

By the way: you keep referring to this idea as if I originated it. That is
incorrect. Almost a year ago, after the "Boiled Lightning" article appeared
in *Infinite Energy*, I posted a description of this experiment on
sci.energy and sci.engr, and a lengthy discussion ensued in which I took
the position of defending the experiment. Result: electronics guru Don
Lancaster plunged into the debate with the spike hypothesis, and I
eventually, after due reflection, became convinced that it had considerable
merit. Thus while my way of defending the spike hypothesis is, of course,
uniquely mine, the germ of the idea came from Don Lancaster. I adopted it
only after I became convinced that it was the strongest of the available
arguments. (That's how I define "my opinion," by the way--i.e., as the
conclusion of strongest argument I know on an issue. By virtue of such a
definition, I am freed to change my opinion as soon as a stronger argument
comes along, and if the spike hypothesis should be refuted, I will do so.
Count on it.)

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>At 02:44 AM 6/19/99 -0400, Michael T Huffman wrote:
>
>>Since Mizuno's power supply does not have the filtering that Scott's does....
>
>Our power supplies are nominally equivalent with Mizuno's having somewhat
>better regulation specs.
>
>BTW, thanks for your overall vote of confidence in my efforts here.
>
>
>Scott Little
>EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
>512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX)
>little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 19 12:09:55 1999
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:11:53 -0400
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Scott wrote:
>Wait a minute, George.  Since the voltage is very constant, we don't want
>rms current.  We want average current.  
-
Oops, right. But without a large capacitor right at
the data logger, we don't know that the voltage is constant
there. High frequency transients could be present due to
the nature of the load and the distance to the power supply.
Even though the samples show a constant voltage, the
shortest integration time for his meter is 1 ms and the
transients during which most of the current flows may be
in the 1 us or shorter range.
-
George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
1924 US Hwy 22 East            Bound Brook NJ 08805

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 19 14:08:41 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 17:12:27 -0400
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Scott wrote:
>BTW, thanks for your overall vote of confidence in my efforts here.
>

No Worries, Mate!  I think tonight I might just put on my good string-tie,
pretend I'm a Mizuno Cathode, surround myself with a gazillion small doses
of white lightening, and see how well I load.  Who knows, with any luck, I
might initiate a small fusion reaction, and hopefully without winding up in
the tank circuitry.

Huevos con Dios, Amigos!

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 19 17:20:59 1999
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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 18:09:22 -0600
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To: Vortex

The use of a  pool of  Mercury in place of the Tungsten in the PLEC
experiments, might kill two birds with one stone, i.e.., Self Healing and an
Oxide Surface Layer.

There shouldn't be any problem with having water with K2CO3 floating on top
of the Hg pool, the HgO in the mercury, and  other oxides formed in the
discharge, should float on top of the pool serving as an oxide layer, along
the lines that Ed Storms suggests as being necessary for forming sparks or
electron avalanches (Langmuir high field emission cathode spots).

It might well be that the cathode spot  "skating" phenomena and additional
spot formation that occurs in Hg Pool Rectifiers when the current goes
exceeds about 100 amperes per square millimeter, is due to a thin oxide
layer on the Hg surface.

Not quite Mizuno Protocol, but possibly worth a shot?

OTOH, a piece of pipe with a cap on the bottom and a bell reducer on top,
with a 1/2 cm deep pool of Hg rigged with a Tungsten Carbide Anode ** Vince
Cockeram has some Tungsten Carbide in-house "one stick is about 1/4 inch
diameter by about 3 inches long"**

One can  attach the carbide electrode to an iron rod and spring mount it so
that it is virtually weightless as the electrode touches the Hg pool, and
rig a solenoid over the iron rod, that is actuated by the contact-discharge
current to set the arc length.

I had a phone chat with Vince this afternoon. He is building a power supply
that should cause a power shortage in Vegas and just about empty Lake Meade
through that hydroelectric plant in a day or so.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 19 19:42:43 1999
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Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 20:42:46 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: Re: PLEC: Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>>
>> The use of a  pool of  Mercury in place of the Tungsten in the PLEC
>> experiments, might kill two birds with one stone, i.e.., Self Healing and
>> an
>> Oxide Surface Layer.
>>
>> There shouldn't be any problem with having water with K2CO3 floating on top
>>
>> of the Hg pool, the HgO in the mercury, and  other oxides formed in the
>> discharge, should float on top of the pool serving as an oxide layer, along
>>
>> the lines that Ed Storms suggests as being necessary for forming sparks or
>> electron avalanches (Langmuir high field emission cathode spots).
>>
>
> This is an excellent idea which contains features found useful in other
> methods.  In particular, Hg is claimed to be easily transmuted using chemical
> reactions of modest energy.  For example, Bockris et al. explored such
> chemical reactions and observed some anomalous nuclear products.  Too bad Hg
> is so poisonous.
>
> Ed Storms
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 19 23:21:43 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: PLEC: Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 02:20:26 -0400
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Ed wrote:
>> This is an excellent idea which contains features found useful in other
>> methods.  In particular, Hg is claimed to be easily transmuted using chemical
>> reactions of modest energy.  For example, Bockris et al. explored such
>> chemical reactions and observed some anomalous nuclear products.  Too bad Hg
>> is so poisonous.

If you forget about the excess heat, and go for the transmutation, you might
possibly be able to refrigerate the cell or whatever to a low enough temp
that the vapor condenses in the cell, thereby reducing _some_ of the
problems.  Any escaping vapor, and I would have a problem with it, even
under a hood.  It always lands somewhere.

Knuke

  
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 20 03:37:21 1999
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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC:  Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 04:29:17 -0600
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To: Vortex

Given that Mercury is so scary to work with, unless under strict safety
measures, an alternative might be the low-melting fusible alloys of the
heavy metals:

Tin        Bismuth       Lead         M.P. Deg  F

60%       40%           ---                281

---         55.5%        44.5%           255

The oxides formed should be reduced by Hydrogen in this application, after
they do what Ed Storms suggests they do. I think.

Regards,      Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 20 05:19:39 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Cold Fusion Yo-Yo
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 08:18:59 -0400
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Well,

This is certainly a new spin on things, but we're still strung out and
torqued off!

Ed Wall

> All,
>
> I caught a brief news story on ABC Nightly news about advanced Yo-Yo 's
> now on the market. One of the best ones they said was the "Cold Fusion
> Yo-Yo" -- the name was mentioned at least five times. It is apparently
> very well designed, versatile, and expensive -- I think they said $150.00
>  It calls goes for a long time without much input...like cold fusion.
>
> I am sure this toy must be on a www site somewhere.
>
> Gene Mallove
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 20 08:11:15 1999
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:08:51 EDT
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 6/18/99 11:04:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mjones jump.net 
writes:

<< Thus if you get an
 apparent large "over unity" result when you do a run, I will continue to
 suspect a tuned-in artifact until you provide convincing evidence to the
 contrary. Knowing no more than we know now, I am *not* willing to simply
 assume that such an artifact cannot happen. --Mitchell Jones}***
  >>


Sure, coincidences do happen.  Just use two different types of input power 
measurement instruments during the run and see if they more or less agree.

Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 20 09:50:39 1999
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Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:36:48 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
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I have concluded that there is likely something wrong with Mizuno's input
power data.  I can't be positive but there is considerable evidence to
support my hypothesis.  I have written this up at:

http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/timeconstant.html

I'm alerting Mizuno to this possible problem and will report his reaction
here.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 20 10:49:11 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC: Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?
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Why not try Gallium? It melts in the hand no? It's common I think and non
toxic.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 20 11:00:17 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
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>In a message dated 6/18/99 11:04:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mjones jump.net
>writes:
>
><< Thus if you get an
> apparent large "over unity" result when you do a run, I will continue to
> suspect a tuned-in artifact until you provide convincing evidence to the
> contrary. Knowing no more than we know now, I am *not* willing to simply
> assume that such an artifact cannot happen. --Mitchell Jones}***
>  >>
>
>
>Sure, coincidences do happen.  Just use two different types of input power
>measurement instruments during the run and see if they more or less agree.
>
>Bob

***{What I expect is that Scott will not succeed in matching Mizuno's "over
unity" numbers by merely using Mizuno's cathodes. He will also have to use
Mizuno's instruments--or, at least, instruments with the same sampling
rates and calculating procedures. If Scott plays with this experiment long
enough, however, trying diverse cathodes one after the other, I expect that
he will eventually hit on one that produces a signal that will fool his
meter, because this sort of persistent search using a regular sampling
meter will virtually guarantee that result. It is analogous to the brute
force searches hackers use to come up with the correct access code to break
into a computer system: you just keep trying one code after another, until
you hit on one that works.

Concerning the use of different meters, I can only note that pack behavior
is prevalent in electronics manufacturing as everywhere else--which means:
many different manufacturers of power meters may be using the same chips
and, thus, the same sampling rates and data processing algorithms. Because
of that, if Scott matches Mizuno's results *without* using Mizuno's
instruments, that isn't going to be sufficient to prove that the experiment
is "over unity." There is no substitute for knowing the sampling
frequencies and widths of the meters used. If you have that information,
you can put a *much faster* scope on the signal, and make sure there are no
significant spikes near the sampling frequency of the meter or one of its
nearby harmonics. All that does is hugely reduce the probability of a
tuned-in artifact, of course, rather than eliminate it, since it would be
possible to tune spikes to fall between samples on the scope itself. But,
in the absence of a random-sampling meter, this is the best that can be
done.

--Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 20 11:10:10 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: PLEC:  Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 14:12:10 -0400
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>Given that Mercury is so scary to work with, unless under strict safety
>measures, an alternative might be the low-melting fusible alloys of the
>heavy metals:
>
>Tin        Bismuth       Lead         M.P. Deg  F
>
>60%       40%           ---                281
>
>---         55.5%        44.5%           255
>
>The oxides formed should be reduced by Hydrogen in this application, after
>they do what Ed Storms suggests they do. I think.

Lead is not that great for you either, and for the same reasons.  It might
be wiser to go with the lower temp Hg, condense the vapor, either
refrigerate it or use the waste heat to power a heat engine, and hopefully
have enough transmuted product left over to buy lunch.  It would get rid of
the Hg environmental problem, and people could go back to listening to the
radio stations that they really like instead of the ones that owned by Ted
Turner or VOA or whoever.

Radio Free Knuke



Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 14:21:09 -0400
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>Sure, coincidences do happen.  Just use two different types of input power 
>measurement instruments during the run and see if they more or less agree.
>
>Bob


Scott did that, I believe, and they do agree to within under 1%.  He also
checked the differences in the efficiency of the power supply between
resistance load runs and sparky runs.  The efficiency of the power supply
remained the same to within under 1%.  There are differences, but with those
power levels they are not significant.  After looking the calorimeter
itself, last night, however, there may be some weak points in it that would
cause Scott to _undermeasure_ the heat electronically, but I'm still looking
at that. 

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 20 11:23:00 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: For Remi
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 14:26:51 -0400
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Hey Remi,
>Why not try Gallium? It melts in the hand no? It's common I think and non
>toxic.
>Remi.

I read your paper last night on Hartman's website.  Have you looked at
Gadolinium?  I saw a story in The Home Shop Machinist magazine about a young
woman who invented a heat engine, using this, and she won a state science
fair or something.  Intel Corporation was all over her the next day.  This
magazine is not on the web, but I can get you the address if you want.

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 20 11:41:12 1999
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http://xbeams.chem.yale.edu/~cross/fullerene.html

Fullerene Research in the Cross Group
Yale University, Department of Chemistry

In collaboration with Prof. Martin Saunders we are making fullerenes
with atoms trapped inside and studying their properties.
Numbers refer to publications listed below. So far we have
put He, Ne, Ar, Kr, Xe and tritium and nitrogen atoms, as well as
He2, Ne2 inside a variety of fullerenes. The tritium atoms are
inserted by generating them at high energies in a nuclear reaction.
The noble gases are put in by heating the fullerenes in the
presence of the gas at high temperatures and pressures or by shooting
them in as ions or metastable atoms. The noble gas compounds
can be detected by mass spectroscopy either as intact
molecules or by decomposing them and detecting the noble gas.
In the case of 3He we can see the 3He NMR signal.

The chief method used to make the noble-gas fullerene compounds
is to heat fullerene in the presence of the gas at 650oC and
3000 atm.[3] We make an ampoule from a tube of OFHC copper
by crimping one end, filling it, and crimping off the top. The
ampoule is placed in a high-pressure bomb which is then filled
with water, closed and heated to 650o. The pressure rises to
3000 atm, and the copper ampoule is squashed flat, compressing
the gas within. After about 8 hrs., the bomb is cooled, and the
ampoule is opened. The fullerene is extracted in CS2. About 85%
of the fullerene is soluble, and about 0.1% of the molecules
contain a noble gas atom. In the cases of He and Ne, we find small
amounts of C70 containing two helium atoms[20] or two neon atoms [18].

Tritium atoms with high kinetic energy are generated using a nuclear
reaction.[6] We prepare either a lithium salt of C60 or use
3He C60 or a mixture of C60 and 3He gas. 6Li and 3He each absorb
thermal neutrons in a reactor to give tritium. The tritium
then loses energy by ionizing the fullerene until it eventually stops.
Some of the time it stops inside a fullerene molecule which
then remains stable. We can isolate tritium labeled C60. In the case
of the T C60 generated from lithium, we obtain trace
amounts of 3He C60 formed by the radioactive decay of the tritium.
If the tritium were on the outside, the 3He would be on the
outside and would be lost.

We have constructed a beam machine to put atoms inside fullerenes.[15]
In the center is a cylindrical target, rotating slowly.
On one side is an oven which produces a continuous beam of fullerene.
Thus we have a freshly deposited surface of fullerene on
the target. On the other side is a source of noble gas ions or
metastable neutrals which hit the surface. The ions and mtastables
are made in an electric discharge. Ions are extracted by an electric
field and bent by 90o. The amount of incorporation for He+
is small at 30eV and rises to a maximum near 100eV and then decreases.
Above 100eV the fullerene is partially destroyed. For
Ne+, the yield is smaller, and the threshold is about 100eV. In the
mtastable mode, the ions are bent away from the target, while
the metastables hit it. We find incorporation of both He* and Ne*.
The method also works for nitrogen atoms. N C60 consists
of a free nitrogen atom with three unpaired electrons unbound to the
carbon cage. It gives a clean atomic-like ESR signal.

3He labeled fullerenes and their derivatives can be studied by NMR
spectroscopy.[2][10] The pi electrons around the fullerene
molecules cause large diamagnetic shielding and an upfield shift of
the 3He line relative to disolved 3He gas. C60 has an upfield
shift of 6.4 ppm and C70 28 ppm. Higher fullerenes fall between these
limits.[8] Adding groups to the outside changes the pi
electron structure and the chemical shift of the 3He.[4][5][7][10] 
The most common adduct is across one of the 6,6 double
bond joining two hexagons. Single addition usually causes an upfield
shift of about 3 ppm from C60, the exact amount depends
on the group being added. Addition across a 5,6 single bond joining a
pentagon and a hexagon gives a much smaller shift.
Multiple additions give a more complicated picture.[14] Each fullerene
molecule and each fullerene adduct gives a different,
unique NMR line. Adding six electrons to C60 and to C70 gives another
closed-shell species. The anions have very different
chemical shifts from the neutrals.[21]

We have constructed a mass spectrometer to analyse the noble gas inside
the fullerenes.[12] We find that very pure C60 is
extraordinarily stable. At 630oC the half life for decomposition is
greater than one month, but even trace quantities of solvent or
air absorbed in it will catalyze its decomposition. At 900oC the half
life is 10 hours. In both cases the gas is largely or
completely released by the decomposition of the C60.

Using a basic alumina column we have achieved partial separation of
Kr C60 from the large excess of unlabeled C60
present.[9] Nearly complete separation was obtained in Ar C60 using 
HPLC.[13] Full separation of the heavier noble gases
inside fullerenes will enable us to measure their spectra and thus 
obtain the interaction potential of the gas with the fullerene cage.

Using classical statistical mechanics, we can claculate the 
equilibrium constant for the incorporation of a noble gas atom into
C60.[11] We start with a potential function V(R) for the gas atom 
as a function of the distance from the center. V(R) is obtained
by using one of several literature potentials between the gas atom 
and each carbon atom. The equilibrium constant is then given by
q* is the the usual partition function for X C60 not including
the gas motion, qint is the internal partition function for C60, and
pX is the partial pressure of the gas. The values for He and Ne seem
to be relatively independent of the potential model used,
but the values for the higher noble gases are much more sensitive
to the choice of potential. For He and Ne the equilibrium
values are much higher than the amounts that we can get from our
experiments, so that the experiments are far from reaching equilibrium.

Recent papers. Reference 10 is a review article. 

   1.Stable compounds of Helium and Neon: He C60 a and Ne@C60, M.
Saunders, H. A. Jiménez-Vázquez, R. J. Cross, and R. J. Poreda,
Science 259, 1428 (1993). 
   2.Probing the Interior of Fullerenes by 3He NMR Spectroscopy 
of Endohedral 3He C60 and 3He@C70, M. Saunders,
     H. A. Jiménez-Vázquez, R. J. Cross, S. Mroczkowski,
D. I. Freedberg, and F. A. L. Anet, Nature 367, 256 (1994). 
   3.Incorportion of Helium, Neon, Argon, Krypton, and Xenon
into Fullerenes using High Pressure, M. Saunders, H. A.
     Jiménez-Vázquez, R. J. Cross, S. Mroczkowski, M. L. Gross,
 D. E. Giblin, and R. J. Poreda, J. Am. Chem. Soc. 116,
     2193 (1994). 
   4.3He NMR: A Powerful New Tool for Following Fullerene Chemistry,
M. Saunders, H. A. Jiménez-Vázquez, B. W.
     Bangerter, R. J. Cross, S. Mroczkowski, D. I. Freedberg,
and F. A. L. Anet, J. Am. Chem. Soc. 116, 3621 (1994). 
   5.Reaction of Cycloprop[b]naphthalene with 3He C60, M. Saunders,
H. A. Jiménez-Vázquez, R. J. Cross, E. Billups, C.
     Gesenberg, and D. J. McCord, Tetrahed. Letts. 35, 3869 (1994). 
   6.Hot-Atom Incorporation of Tritium Atoms into Fullerenes,
H. A. Jiménez-Vázquez, M. Saunders, and R. J. Poreda,
     Chem. Phys. Letts. 229, 111 (1994). 
   7.Synthesis and 3He NMR Studies of C60 and C70 Epoxide,
Cyclopropane, and Annulene Derivatives Containing
     Endohedral Helium, A. B. Smith, R. M. Strongin, L. Brard,
W. J. Romanow, M. Saunders, H. A. Jiménez-Vázquez, and
     R. J. Cross, J. Am. Chem. Soc. 116, 10831 (1994). 
   8.Analysis of Isomers of the Higher Fullerenes by 3He NMR
Spectroscopy, M. Saunders, H. A. Jiménez-Vázquez, R. J.
     Cross, W. E. Billups, C. Gesenberg, A. Gonzalez, W. Luo,
R. C. Haddon, F. Diederich, and Z. Herrmann, J. Am.
     Chem. Soc. 117, 9305 (1995). 
   9.Chromatographic Fractionation of Fullerenes Containing Noble
Gas Atoms, M. Saunders, A. Khong, R. Shimshi, H. A.
     Jiménez-Vázquez,and R. J. Cross,
Chem. Phys. Lett. 248, 127 (1996). 
  10.Noble Gas Atoms Inside Fullerenes, M. Saunders, R. J. Cross,
H. A. Jiménez-Vázquez, R. Shimshi, and A. Khong,
     Science 271, 1693 (1996). 
  11.Equilibrium Constants for Noble-Gas Fullerene Compounds,
H. A. Jiménez-Vázquez and R. J. Cross, J. Chem. Phys.
     104, 5589 (1996). 
  12.Release of Noble Gas Atoms from Inside Fullerenes, R. Shimshi,
A. Khong, H. A. Jiménez-Vázquez, R. J. Cross, and
     M. Saunders, Tetrahedron, 52, 5143 (1996). 
  13.Enrichment and Characterization of a Noble Gas Fullerene:
Ar C60, B. A. DiCamillo, R. L. Hettich, G. Guichon, R. N.
    Compton, M. Saunders, H. A. Jiménez-Vázquez, A. Khong,
and R. J. Cross, J. Phys. Chem. 100, 9197 (1996). 
  14.Use of 3He NMR for Structural Assignment of Isomers Resulting
from Bis-addition to C60, R. J. Cross, H. A.
     Jiménez-Vázquez, Q. Lu, M. Saunders, D. I. Schuster,
S. R. Wilson, and H. Zhao, J. Am. Chem. Soc. 118, 11454 (1996). 
  15.Beam Implantation: A New Method for Preparing Cage Molecules
Containing Atoms at High Incorporation Levels, R.
     Shimshi, R. J. Cross, and M. Saunders, J. Am. Chem. Soc. 119,
1163 (1997). 
  16.pi-Electron Ring Current Effects in Multiple Adducts of 3He C60
and 3He C70: A 3He NMR Study, M. Rüttimann, R.
     F. Haldimann, L. Isaacs, F. Diederich, A. Khong, H. A.
Jiménez-Vázquez, R. J. Cross, and M. Saunders, Chem. Eur. J.
     3, 1071 (1997). 
  17.Incorporation of Helium into Endohedral Complexes of C60 and
C70 Containing Noble-Gas Atoms; A Tandom Mass
     Spectrometry Study, D. E. Giblin, M. L. Gross, M. Saunders,
H. A. Jiménez-Vázquez, and R. J. Cross, J. Am. Chem.
     Soc. 119, 9883 (1997). 
  18.An Artificial Molecule of Ne2 inside C70, J. Laskin, T. Peres,
C. Lifshitz, M. Saunders, R. J. Cross, and A. Khong,
     Chem. Phys. Lett. 285, 7 (1998). 
  19.Collisional Fragmentation of Ar C60, C. Brink, P. Hvelplund,
H. Shen, H. A. Jiménez-Vázquez, R. J. Cross, and M.
     Saunders, Chem. Phys. Lett. 286, 28 (1998). 
  20.An NMR Study of He2 Trapped inside C70, A. Khong, H. A.
Jiménez-Vázquez, M. Saunders, R. J. Cross, J. Laskin, T.
     Peres, C. Lifshitz, R. Strongen, and A. B. Smith,
J. Am. Chem. Soc. 120, 6380 (1998). 
  21.3He NMR of He C606- and He@C706-, New Records for the 
Most Shielded an the Most Deshielded 3He inside a
     Fullerene, A. Weitz, E. Shabtai, R. Haddon, R. E.
Hoffman, M. Rabinovitz, A. Khong, R. J. Cross, M. Saunders, P. C.
     Cheng, and L. T. Scott, J. Am. Chem. Soc. 120, 6389 (1998). 

>From here you can go to:

Cross Group Home Page
Yale University Chemistry Department WWW server
Saunders Group Home Page

Contact me at james.cross yale.edu

Phone: (203)432-5203, Fax: (203)432-6144
Mail: Yale Chemistry Dept., PO Box 208107, New Haven, CT 06520-8107, USA
Last Updated: Oct. 5, 1998.

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Subject: Scott: Mizuno's cell is boiling
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Scott Little wrote:

>Right.  Doesn't it strike you as strange that the Pout is virtually
>constant while the Pin is wandering around?

No, it has to be this way. The cell is not pressurized and it is boiling.
Any additional input above boiling can only create more steam. The average
electrolyte temperature is considerably below 99 deg C because the boiling
is around the cathode and the hot water and vapor goes straight up.

(elsewhere:)

>Hey!  I finally figured out what was bothering me about this!  Look at
>Mizuno's graph around time 14:34.  The Pin trace is making some big
>up-and-down excursions which last about 3 minutes each but the Pout trace
>is apparently not tracking them...yet the Pout response time (as evidence
>by the rapid recovery at each flow rate change) is short enough that it
>should be tracking those Pin excursions reasonably well.

No, it should not track at all. The temperature of a pot of boiling water
does not track the burning fuel consumption.

This is kind of elementary. I am surprised you have not seen similar data
for your own cells.

- Jed

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Noble gases in fullerene cages
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At 12:35 PM 6/20/99, Richard T. Murray wrote:
>http://xbeams.chem.yale.edu/~cross/fullerene.html
>
>Fullerene Research in the Cross Group
>Yale University, Department of Chemistry
>
>In collaboration with Prof. Martin Saunders we are making fullerenes
>with atoms trapped inside and studying their properties.


It appears this research is aimed at closed ended fullerenes, not open
ended nanotubes the interior of which noble gasses would have ready access.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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At 02:49 PM 6/20/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>>Right.  Doesn't it strike you as strange that the Pout is virtually
>>constant while the Pin is wandering around?
>
>No, it has to be this way. The cell is not pressurized and it is boiling.
>Any additional input above boiling can only create more steam. The average
>electrolyte temperature is considerably below 99 deg C because the boiling
>is around the cathode and the hot water and vapor goes straight up.

OK, a little of the water is vaporizing right next to the cathode but the
well-stirred remainder of the electrolyte is at 70-75C in the Mizuno data
we are presently considering.

>>Pout....should be tracking those Pin excursions reasonably well.

>No, it should not track at all. The temperature of a pot of boiling water
>does not track the burning fuel consumption.

But we don't have a pot of boiling water...it's at 70-75C.  In my own cell,
even when I get the temperature up around 90C, I can still see faithful
tracking between Pin and Pout.

>This is kind of elementary. I am surprised you have not seen similar data
>for your own cells.

That's because your hypothesis is incorrect.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

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Scott Little writes:

>But we don't have a pot of boiling water...it's at 70-75C.

I don't know what trace that Tcell is, but most of the data I saw was the
electrolyte is up around 90 to 95 deg C. Maybe that is the cell wall
temperature?

In all cases, film boiling occurs around the cathode and above a certain
temperature, the energy is carried out of the cell as vapor and gas. It
does not matter what the electrolyte temperature is (although 75 deg C is
surprisingly low), once there is boiling the flow calorimetry will not
capture the heat. The gas volume, as I said, is more than Faraday's laws
predict.



>That's because your hypothesis is incorrect.

It isn't a hypothesis. It is what Mizuno and the others who have done this
experiment report, and what the photos and videos and our calorimetry
shows. Open cell flow calorimetry does not work in the boiling regime, and
the glow discharge definitely causes intense boiling. I do not know what
the surrounding electrolyte temperature is our cells. I suppose it is
partly a function of the cell wall heat transfer coefficient.

- Jed

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A word of WARNING right up front: This is potentially VERY DANGEROUS work
and must not be done without maximum, safety precautions and supervision
by those thoroughly versed in laboratory safety!  It involves
high-temperatures, high-voltages, explosive mi xtures of oxygen and
hydrogen, caustic solutions, and steam generation that if improperly
contained could cause a deadly explosion. These are just the beginning
hazards. This is unknown territory.  Drs. Ohmori and Mizuno measured the
transmutation of elem ents in this experiment. Thus, until further notice
^Ë and despite your possible skepticism about their claim of transmutation
^Ë this work must be considered, by definition, nuclear experimentation.
With that said, we encourage every thoughtful group who can do this
experiment safely to attempt it. Infinite Energy and Cold Fusion
Technology, Inc. take no responsibility for the known or unknown radiation
or other hazards that are associated this experiment.

*********************************

Dear Colleagues:

After much work we now have what appears to be a marvelous do-it-yourself
"cold fusion" experiment. Any reasonably equipped chem/physics lab can see
the effect within days to a week -- if they get their act together. The
experiment has the following quali ties:

1. It is visually and audibly spectacular -- brilliant glowing, pink,
purple, lavender with white flashes on an underwater tungsten (W)
electrode ( e.g. 2 mm x 5 mm W foil or 1 cm x 1.6 mm diameter tungsten
welding rod). A plasma-like underwater discharge on the electrode that
often manages to disintegrate or melt tungsten underwater with only about
50 to 80 watts of power over a short period. (Tungsten's melting point is
3680 K or thereabouts.) The sound of the underwater "explosions" on the
cathode -- brilliant white flashes on the purple background plasma -- is
very impressive.

2. It is *totally reproducible* -- at will -- with no loading time as in
the Pd/heavy water experiments

3. Calorimetry is simple to do because there is so much steam energy
evolved from the reaction that by simply tallying the amount of water
vaporized as steam, one gets over-unity every time (so far). Three groups
have already gotten *preliminary* over-unity results: 1. Ohmori and Mizuno
in Japan, who introduced the phenomenon at ICCF-7 (O/U estimated at
2.6/1); 2. Gene Mallove and FAA engineer Ed Wall here in Bow, NH during
the past ten days -- work continuing -- (CONSERVATIVELY 1.4/1); 3.
Engineer Mark Hugo of Northern States Power in Minnesota (but his
affiliation has nothing to do with his home experiment) -- (CONSERVATIVELY
1.5/1), but owrk still continuing to check for errors. Chemist John
Thompson in the Bahamas, who attended ICCF-7, was the first person outside
of Japan to reproduce the effect and will do calorimetry on it soon. This
will be in IE #20 out on July 22.

4. No one has patents or may be able to get them since the effect was
noticed in other forms (1916!) and reported extensively in the Journal of
the Electrochemical Society, April, 1950, p.133 in an article titled ("The
Anode Effect in Aqueous Electrolysis," by Herbert Kellogg of the School of
Mines, Columbia University. New York -- Hal Fox found this marvelous
article, since it relates to some of the work his Trenergy Company is
doing weith charge clustgers and radioactivity reduction. This may,
indeed, be related to the underwater electrolysis ability to remediate
nuclear waste. But -- OF COURSE! -- NO *calorimetry* was done in 1950. No
one had any idea that such simple systems could be O/U. The systems were
studied for other reasons.  Further: the present tungsten effect is seen
mainly on the cathode, but it can make the Pt anode incandescent too at
lower water temperature (say 50 C) -- we normally work over 80 C. It is
very mysterious -- was so to Kellogg in 1950 and remains so.

5. Ohmori and Mizuno found major evidence for transmutation of elements
and volcanic ejection of metals from the tungsten surface -- these SEM
photos were reproduced in their article. They find Hg, Os, Kr, Zn, Cu, Ni,
Fe, Cr, Si, and Mg -- with anomalous isotopic content. Just as I said, in
IE #15/16, this subject is more properly called ³Electro-Alchemy"

6. WARNING: Ohomori and Mizuno experienced significant apparent
electromagnetic effects on their instruments. They were unsure whether
some of the effect on their neutron counter were evidence of neutrons -- I
doubt the latter, as did Srinivasan of BARC at ICCF7. I have kept a Geiger
counter on during our experiments -- absolutely no sign of major ionizing
radiation, but of course it could be localized within the cell.

Ohmori and Mizuno's paper at ICCF7: " Strong Excess Energy Evolution, New
Element Production, and Electromagnetic Wave And/Or Neutron Emission in
the Light Water Electrolysis with a Tungsten Cathode."  T. Ohmori and T.
Mizuno, Catalysis Research Center, H okkaido University

Here is my recommended recipe for an experiment to demonstrate the effect:

1. Take a 250 ml glass beaker, fill to about 200 ml level with 0.5 molar
(0.5 M) K2CO3 -- potassium carbonate solution

2. Get 0.5 mm diameter Pt wire for both anode and cathode leads -- about
15 cm for each lead is adequate length. Shield them with teflon tubing
down to the connection point with the Pt or W.

3. Use a small piece of Pt foil -- about 2 mm x 5mm on the anode (positive
lead) crimped mechanically to the Pt wire -- no welding is needed.

4. Use a 2 mm x 5 mm size W foil on the cathode - negative side. It is
tricky to attach the W foil (we used 0.1 mm thickness, which can be
pierced with difficulty and the Pt lead wired through). Or, if W welding
rod 1/16-inch diameter is available, wrap t he Pt wire around the W piece
about 0.5 to 1 cm long. Warning: The reaction is so violent that it is
hard to get the cathode piece in rod form not to fall out of its Pt wire
cage! Runs up to 10 minutes or so are usually OK. Mark Hugo has run for up
to 75 minutes , condunsing steam from the reaction -- but he has put other
ingredients into the brew such as Li, and he has used a thicker cathode of
1/8-inch W rod.

5. Get a DC power supply up to 5 amps capacity and up to 200 volts. (I am
eager to try beyond 180 volts, but we may need a concrete bunker before we
try that! Eager also to try heavy water!)  You can use a variac AC source
to make DC power-- use a bridge rectifier and capacitor to make DC from
the AC output. Install voltage and current metering devices -- digital
display preferred, data acquisition system if you want to get fancy on the
calorimetry later. I'm sure Scott Little and Mitch Swartz cojuld do this
soon if they put their equipment into this specialized service. This is an
excellent experiment for Barry Merriman too!

6. Heat up the beaker solution to 80 C either by electrolysis at low DC
input power -- e.g. 20 V, 1.8 to 2 amps -- or with an external hot plate.
(Turn off the hot plate and **remove it** if calorimetry is being used.)
At about 80 deg --sometimes at a lower temperature -- crank up the volts
to 120 to 180. The effect changes appearance as voltage increases. Current
will drop substantially to 0.2 to 0.4 amps as the sheath of steam
surrounds the glowiing plasma-sheathed cathode. Keep an alcohol
thermometer suspended in the solution to measure the temperature. I would
*initially* avoid thermocouples because of the threat of violent
electromagnetic interference in this unknown phenomena.

In calorimetric assessment: Heating credit should be taken for the full
mass of water in the cell from the initial temperature of say 80 C to the
boiling point. However, you may find it difficult to push the average
solution temperature up to 100C (we were only in the low to mid 90s),
because the steam ejected cools the solution so rapidly. The boiling point
is elevated -- McKubre estimated to me in aprivate communciation by only
0.25 deg C for such a solution). This is wonderful, because we WANT steam.
It will be no problem at all to power steam engines with this, if pending
thorough verification of excess energy (This *is* work in progress that
must be confirmed!) we figure out how to get the power ratio high enough,
if it is not there already. The main source of the excess is the amount
boiled off: water vaporized requires about 2260 J/gm.

Why was this missed by other cold fusion people? Simple: everyone was
looking for a sedate reaction that P&F had started with when the real pay
off was in these higher voltage systems that trigger with metals like
tungsten. W is recommended due to its temperature resistance, but John
Thompson has found that other metals such as Al, Cu, Ni, and Zr also work
-- as far as the *visible* effect. The colors of the emissions are
different -- different hot plasma near the cathode surface.

Other parameters that need to be explored:

* Higher voltage

* Can energy be extracted from the recycled water after steam condensation
  or if Mills-type hydrinos are formed, do they become "inert"?

* Other electrolytes -- KCl also works, according to Thompson, try higher
  molarity values

* Other metals

* Pressurized systems -- BE CAREFUL!!!

* Recombine oxygen and hydrogen -- but a very small part of the effect,
  undoubtedly -- to get extra energy in the output

* Try heavy water in various mixtures with light water

* Detect electromagnetic pulse from the device -- if it is there as they
  found in Japan

* Examine the element production and non-natural isotope ratios formed

* SEM imaging for morphology of craters

* Look for radiation -- use film fogging techniques, CR-39 plastic
  detectors, etc.

This will keep a lot of people busy for a long time. As soon as we pin
down the thermal characteristics a bit more, we and others well be
hell-bent to scale up to larger power-producing units -- with SAFETY FIRST
as our motto.

**********


This is a typical, very brief O/U investigation run that Ed Wall and I
performed here recently in an uninsulated glass beaker on a metal surface
-- VERY rough calculation, conservative, we think. Among other factors
reducing effect apart from ZERO insulation is the recondensation and
re-boiling of material -- we had a plastic cover on the beaker with holes
drilled in it. A distillation recondensation device would be preferred to
observe water evolved as steam.

Input: 0.7 to 0.8 amps, avg 0.75 A input at 168 volts = 26,590 J

Duration: 3 minutes, 31 seconds

Solution reduced from 183 ml to 173 ml due to boil-off

Output = 10 x 2260 J/gm H2O + 183 x (about 15 C rise during heating to
full boiling at about 92 C) x 4.18 J/gm C = 34,060

output/input = 1.28

Credit for uninsulated vessel and re-bailing of condnsed liquid could
easily push this to 1.40 and beyond. Much more work needs to be done.

I hope that other Vortexians will try this -- CAREFULLY, please!

************

Ohmori and Mizuno did calorimatry on the last few mintues BEFORE boiling
and compared the rate of temperature rise to that of a joule heater's
effect on the same volume of electrolyte. That's how they got their 2.6/1.



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June 20, 1999  Sunday

Hello,  If we make the theoretically improbable assumption that the 0.4%
Pd activated carbon in the Case cell actively adsorbs and tenaciously
retains He, then the McKubre-George-Tanzella results can arguably be
explained without nuclear reactions.

The Case cell: a 50-cc SS metal cell, using a commercial porous C
catalyst, plated with 0.4% Pd, 10 gm, 0.5 gm/cc, from D2 at ~3.4 atm and
200 deg C, a linear rise from day 5 to 27 to almost 11 ppm, with
background 5.22 ppm in lab air:  paper by Russ George
[ Rgeorge rsrch.com ] on work 
with Fran Tanzella [ Fran_tanzella qm.sri.com ]
and Mike McKubre at SRI Mike_mckubre qm.sri.com ], funded by DARPA.

http://rsrch.com/saturna/APSpapers_1998_1999.htm

The initial He-4 concentration in the cell was 0.1-0.3 ppm, the
limit of the MS instrument.

"After loading the now-modified vessel with D2 and raising the
temperature to about 200° C using about 9.3 watts of heating, helium
was measured at 0.2ppm (the same level found in the D2 source cylinder).
The Joule heating for the control vessel was ~ 9.7 watts.

Our thermometry / calorimetry at this point in time is insufficient to
make any declaration as to an excess heat effect.

After about 4 days the helium content of the D2 vessel began to increase
on a steady basis. (see data figure 2) while the other "control" vessel
showed 4He remaining at the instrument background level of 0.1-0.3 ppm.
After several days observing that the background levels of helium had
not grown in the control vessel while it appeared to be growing
steadily in the D2 vessel it was decided to flush the H2 from the
control vessel and add D2. A series of several flushes to vacuum and
fills with D2 was undertaken finally leaving the vessel filled with
~3.4 atm D2. Over the course of 27 subsequent days analysis samples
were taken on a frequent but not quite daily basis (see data figure 1)
while the paired vessels were held at ~200° - 210° C.

Helium steadily increased in the one vessel exceeding the potential
"diffusion leak" concentration of 1.2 ppm on approximately day eight.
By day 27 the helium content of the vessel had reached 11.0 ppm
(5x10E16 atoms 4He) well above the ambient air concentration of 5.22
ppm. The rate of 4He production conforms to approximately 90-100
milliwatts of power. This power output conforms very favorably to the
expected power of ~100 milliwatts predicted from Case’s originally
reported power measurements when adjustment is made for the
substantially smaller vessel used in these experiments. The "control"
experiment tells us the helium we observe is coming from neither the
walls of the experimental vessel nor from helium somehow entrained in
the starting material and now being cooked out. It is believed this
control" cell is not producing helium because of inadequate flushing
of the hydrogen with deuterium during the deuterium filling process.
However it is noted that in the extensive experience of Case many
palladium on carbon catalyst samples both from United Catalysts and
other suppliers do not produce the observed isotopic heating effect."

Sunday, June 13, Ron McFee and I were unable to imagine a possible
artifact that could generate these dramatic results.  Monday, 
however, at 6 AM I was awake, hoping to record some dreams. 
None were available, but I suddenly saw the possible artifact.
Ed Storms had told me that the Case cells produce He only in one out
of two or three runs, and that the cells have to be cleaned
carefully and kept clean: "There are some tricks to it."  So, this
means that it is not surprising that the control cell failed to
show He production.

"To further confirm that helium was not trapped in the material before
the start of this experiment a sample( ~10mg UC G75-d catalyst ) was
analyzed in the laboratory of Prof. Y. Arata in Osaka Japan. Heating
the sample to a temperature in excess of 1300° C in Prof. Arata’s high
vacuum QMS that is sensitive to approximately 1x106 atoms of 4He
revealed no significant helium was released from the Pd carbon
material. (3)"  Was it from the same specific batch of
catalyst?  

"The author(s) acknowledge the assistance provided by Mike McKubre
and Fran Tanzella (SRI International), Doug Perkins (United Catalysts
of the Sud Chemie companies), Roger Ray and Len Marshall (mass
spectroscopy Oakridge National Laboratory),  Prof. John Dash (Physics
Portland State University), Andrey Chuvilin (Boreskov Inst. Of
Catalysis, Russia), and Tom Passell (EPRI Nuclear Power Division)."

The porous C briquets, ~10 gm, dusted with submicron particles of
Pd, 0.04 gm [0.4%], could be the source of the He released in
the Case cell from 28 days at ~3.4 atm of D2 at
200-210 deg C in a 50 cc stainless steel cell.
A control cell with H2 for a few days and the D2 for 3 weeks showed
no He, reason not known.

The measured He was 5E16 atoms, which, as 1 amu = 1.66E-24 gram,
gives .332 ug He, so for the 10 gm of C, we have .033 ppm by weight,
.1 ppm by number of atoms.  So if all the found He came from 
the C, that would be one He atom for every ten million C atoms.

The 50 cc SS cell is filled with ~20 cc of C catalyst, density
0.5 gm/cc, so the catalyst bed includes 15 cc void, since the
density of amorphous carbon is 2.0 g/cc, so the catalyst must
be about 75% void,  while the rest of the cell is 30 cc, giving
45 cc void space.  Air has 5.22 ppm He by volume, .72 ppm by weight:
the weight of air is 1.29E-3 gm/cc, so air holds 6.7E-9 gm He/cc
= 6.7E-3 ug/cc He.

So, the 15 cc of air-filled void in the catalyst holds .10 ug He,
while the 30 cc of air-filled void in the cell holds .20 ug He,
which means that if, as assumed, the catalyst actively attracts and
tenaciously retains He, it could hold .3O ug He-- VERY CLOSE INDEED
to the He found, after many cycles of being exposed to vacuum, H2,
and D2, and, finally a month at 3.4 atm D2 at 200-210 deg C.
 
Much more He could possibly be adsorbed by the C, since the putative
capacity is unknown, but if it is not prohibited, then it may be
mandatory, so the C may hold a larger amount of He from exposure
to air during its entire history.  The fastest way to test this is
to burn some catalyst in pure O2, and examine for amu = 4 in a mass
spectrograph: Scott Little [ little eden.com ] may soon do this.

Douglas Perkins [ dperkins united catalysts.com ] of
United Catalyst, Inc., Ouisville, KT 40232, 502-634-7241,
talked to me for 23 minutes Friday.  He has dealt with Les Case
for years, and has a high regard for him.  The catalyst is
G75d, 0.4% Pd, activated carbon from coconut shells (an industry
standard), carbonized by roasting, then impregnated with PdCl2 in 
water, and heat treated until dry at about 200 deg C-- I don't
know if vacuum was applied.  The Pd exists as little round white
balls, .1-.3 um diameter.  The catalyst has been made for over
50 years-- "nothing exotic".  Case's original samples could have
been 10-20 yars old-- it doesn't have much demand. It is filtered
through 4X8 mesh, 1/4 inch by 1/8 spaces, so the rough black iregular
granules are about 1/4 by 1/10 inch size.

Their affiiate in Italy makes another catalyst, successfully used
by Case: MPB5, 0.5% Pd. It's major impurities, measured by XRF:
Na 500 ppm, K 400, S 300, Cl 100, Fe 100, Cu 40, Ni 20. [Many
more impurities must exist below this level of sensitivity.]

If a parameter is changed, then this catalyst does not work.

Perkins said twice that Russ George had been having trouble getting
the Case cell to work recently, but called last week that he was
getting a +60 deg C delta-T.

I wondered last week if U alpha decay could build up He in the C,
but calculated that 1 ppm U by weight in the 10 gm of C would 
produce only .422E7 dis/year, 4.27 Meb alphas,
with a range in the 0.5 gm/cc density C of .01 cm, while the
K-40 (.012%), 4.8 ug in 10 gm C, would make 0.69E7 dis/year,
1.31 Mev electrons. Incidentally, you will be happy to know that
the K-40 in your body is 0.1 micro-curie, 3.7E4 dis/sec.

The H2 and D2 has only .1-.3 ppm He, about 17- 52 times less than
air at 5.22 ppm, but applied at 3.4 atm, increasing the amount
of He three-fold, to .34 - 1.02 ppm for each of six or more
fillings, could add 2.04 - 6.12 ppm, so POSSIBLY ENOUGH to 
produce the observed 5.22 ppm of found He.  Another test would
be to measure for He depletion in the H2 and D2 that have been
exposed at 3.4 atm to the catalyst.  However, if the He 
adsorption capacity of the catalyst has already been saturated
by exposure to air, then this test will not work: He in the
He and D2 will not be relevant.

The 100 ppm Cl may be relevant.  The ratio of atomic masses, C/Cl is
12/33.45 = .36, so that leads to 36 ppm Cl in C by atom, so there
are 36 Cl atoms for every million C atoms, 360X more than the He.
There could well be a similar amount of oxygen.

Helium is sometimes released after days of exposure to D2 at 3.4 atm,
and then rises linearly for three weeks.  If the helium is bound,
perhaps adsorbed to some rare impurity, or caught within some exotic
trap, then it is almost certainly on a surface of the immense
inner area of the C.  Any chemical processes that erode the top
few atomic layers of the C will release the He.  Cl2 will form
the gas carbon tetrachloride, while O2 will form CO and CO2.  If
the SS walls, which also contain catalytic metals, Fe, Ni, Cr, are
a little cooler than the bed of catalyst, then convection currents,
differing markedly from the case of H2 to that of D2, will tend
to erode the inner surfaces of the C, releasing He, and perhaps
depositing C on the cell walls.  In fact, as obvious as the
purloined letter, hidden by lying in open sight on a table, H2 and
D2 can erode C by forming CH4.  If by chance, the D2 gas had
more trace Cl2, O2, and N2 than did the H2 gas, that could also 
contribute to the measured release of He.  It is probable that
the D2 and H2 will have different trace impurities, because 
they come from different sources and processes.

There are multitudinous possibilities for artifacts, so the claim
of nuclear reactions is premature.

If the catalyst binds and holds He, then that itself is a significant
finding.  An Internet search finds no reports of compounds of He, Ne,
or Ar, and some success at forcing He and other noble gases into
fullerene balls. But the catalyst need hold only 1 He atom
per ten million carbon atoms to explain the results so far given. 

Arata heated 10 mg of catalyst to 1300 deg C, which should have
released .33 nanograms of He,  5E13 atoms, which should have been
easily detected, if the catalyst contained enough He for 10 gm to
supply the .33 ug He found.  So, back to the lab, boys!

I am indebted to Jed Rothwell for making it abundantly clear that the
He in the lab air could not be a meaningful issue, with a
conscientious scientist like Mike McKubre.

Regards,  Rich Murray   Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 8750
505-986-9103   505-920-6130
rmforall earthlink.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 20 16:14:36 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 19:12:18 EDT
Subject: PLEC:  Ohmori's Development of the Cell?
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Jed,

How did Ohmori come to design his plasma electrolysis cell?

Is he doing experiments with it, too, or is Mizuno doing all the experimental 
work?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 20 16:26:27 1999
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From: Colin Rickert <colinrickert hotmail.com>
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>From 76570.2270 compuserve.comSat Oct 28 17:38:42 1995
Date: 28 Oct 95 15:57:18 EDT
From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270 compuserve.com>
Reply to: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Lawnmower Man

Someone sent me a hard copy of this and I transcribed it. May make for some
fun experiments connected with cavitation, steam, and O-U.

Gene Mallove
*********************************


From: Pat_Pelletier mindlink.bc.ca (Pat Pelletier)
Newsgroups: sci.engr
Subject: PUBLIC DISCLOSURE - NEW INVENTION
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 10:54:05 - 0700
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada


I am posting the following for a friend who does NOT have access to 
Internet.
Comments welcomed.

NOTICE

The prupose of this notice is to place into public domain something which I
invented so that it may be patented and in order to prevent it's use from
being restricted in any way.

The device is an engine in which small quantitites of water are turned into
steam by the use of a magnetron (as found in microwave ovens).

Interested parties may wish to try this test: Place a few drops of water 
into
a clear plastic 35mm film roll holder and put the cap on the film roll 
holder.
Place in a microwave oven and turn the oven on. The 'pop' is the result of
the water turning suddenly into steam.

The engine I have invented is far more efficient than any other steam engine
because the efficiency of the magnetron in turning water into steam.  In 
fact,
the water droplet 'explodes' very much like air/gasoline explodes in a
conventional internal combustion engine.

This engine was first tested in 1992.  I am however unable to invest the
required capital to produce a more sophisticated model and therefore unable 
to
patent it.  Even though I may not be able to profit from this technology, it
is too good to be kept to myself and I would like to spread it around so 
that
others may be able to use it.

The following is an outline of how to construct the device and a few 
cautions:

PARTS NEEDED:

1. Magnetron from medium power microwave oven.

2. Small 4-stroke single cylinder lawn mover engine or similar engine with
'old style' points and ignition system.

3.  Automotive alternator with built-in rectifier and regulator, also a 12
volt auto battery.

4. "Trigger" mechanism from an aircraft "strobe" landing light.

INSTRUCTIONS:

1. The magnetron fits into the spark plug hole.

2. The distributor points are modified so that the contact is closed when 
the
piston is at the top dead center and this contact is used to activate the
aircraft strobe mechanism.

3.  The high voltage from the strobe is connected to directly fire the
magnetron which in turn produces steam which moves the piston.

4. The engine turns the alternator which keeps the battery charged, which
supplies the electrical power for the magnetron.

CAUTION AND TIPS:

WARNING!!! DANGER!!!!

1. Be careful around the magnetron. KEEP IT SHIELDED WITH METAL.  IT CAN 
CAUSE
SEVERE BURNS THAT MAY NOT BE READILY VISIBLE WHEN THEY FIRST OCCUR.

2. The 'strobe' trigger delivers a very high voltage which can jump to 
ground.
WEAR RUBBER SOLED SHOES AND INSULATE WELL.

3. Be sure to modify the distributor points so they close at the top dead
center. Timing advance depends on the power of the magnetron used and the
amount of water. Try different carb jet sizes -- drill out if needed.

4. Due to variables, don't expect high engine speeds without a little
experimentation due to variables.

5. Start with a fully charged battery or your alternator won't work.

6. The energy produced is in excess of the power required to run the
alternator but until you get the RPM up, and the parts wrking in harmony, it
may be best to use a battery charger instead of an alternator.

7. An easy way to measure net power output after you have the alternator on
line is to run a few 12 volt lights from the battery.  You will see that the
battery stays charged even with the lights on and the motor keeps on going.

8.  Although I have not tried it, the idea of vaporizing water with 
microwaves
should also work well in a converted turbine.

SPREAD THIS TECHNOLOGY - IT IS FREE!!

PRINT THIS BEFORE IT IS DELETED FROM THE NET!

MY CODE FOR FUTURE IDENTIFICATION IS PANGURBAN









______________________________________________________
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Subject: Analysis of PLEC & other Japanese data
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  Dear Vorts:

   We will be putting up a draft manuscript involving
Analysis of PLEC & other Japanese CF data for
comments from vorts [and other interested parties]
regarding a paper describing an analysis of the
PLEC and other Japanese data.  

  This is a continuation of what was presented
at ICCF7; and will expand with what appears to be
more corroborating data, and info, not previously shown.
  
  If interested, please send email back with this
header, and the URL (or a zip file) will be returned
when the assembled page is up shortly, for a period a few
days, for comments, feedback, criticism, suggestions, etc.,
prior to its submission.

    Thanks.
      Mitchell Swartz


   

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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 20:10:49 EDT
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 6/20/99 11:00:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mjones jump.net 
writes:

<< concerning the use of different meters, I can only note that pack behavior
 is prevalent in electronics manufacturing as everywhere else--which means:
 many different manufacturers of power meters may be using the same chips
 and, thus, the same sampling rates and data processing algorithms. >>


Yes, that's one of the problems with hi-tec instruments.  They can sometimes 
hide the facts.  My earlier suggestion was use analog instruments together 
with the C-H and see if they agree.

Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 20 17:16:12 1999
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Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 18:15:53 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>   Dear Vorts:
>
>    We will be putting up a draft manuscript involving
> Analysis of PLEC & other Japanese CF data for
> comments from vorts [and other interested parties]
> regarding a paper describing an analysis of the
> PLEC and other Japanese data.
>
>   This is a continuation of what was presented
> at ICCF7; and will expand with what appears to be
> more corroborating data, and info, not previously shown.
>
>   If interested, please send email back with this
> header, and the URL (or a zip file) will be returned
> when the assembled page is up shortly, for a period a few
> days, for comments, feedback, criticism, suggestions, etc.,
> prior to its submission.
>
>     Thanks.
>       Mitchell Swartz

I would be most interested in receiving your comments.

Ed Storms


>
>
>




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 20 18:30:52 1999
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Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 17:33:02 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Murray: carbon He source or sink in Case cell 6.20.99
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At 5:06 PM 6/20/99, Richard T. Murray wrote:
>June 20, 1999  Sunday
>
>Hello,  If we make the theoretically improbable assumption that the 0.4%
>Pd activated carbon in the Case cell actively adsorbs and tenaciously
>retains He, then the McKubre-George-Tanzella results can arguably be
>explained without nuclear reactions.

Glad to see you agree with me on the possible role of the carbon in storing
helium.   However, it does not strike me as theoretically improbable at all
that helium can be retained (in much more than the required volume) in
nanotubes, or between graphite sheets, especially given that hydrogen can
be stored in large quantities in nanotubes.  Also, since the carbon is from
roasted coconut shells, the fibrous structure of the coconut shells may
further result in gas trapping structures.  The much higher velocity of He
atoms and H2 and D2 molecules at a given temperaure should make these
gasses more capable of reaching confined nanospaces in the carbon, and,
once in highly confined spaces, slow to degas.  For this reason carbon
should act to selectively concentrate hydrogen and helium from the
atmosphere.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 20 19:20:40 1999
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From: "Edward Kauffmann" <edkl triton.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: CF cause of Spontaneous Human Combustion?
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 22:24:33 -0400
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I just watched The Unexplained on A&E about Spontaneous Human Combustion and
I was thinking there might be a connection.  There is an intense localized
heat (excess heat, if you will) that consumes the person.  Our bodies are
made up of a large amount of water with electrical impulses travelling all
around in there.  In addition to the normal human body, what intake of
matter and state of mind would cause such an event and how might it relate
to CF?  In some of the old descriptions of SHC, alcoholics were more likely
to have it happen to them...

Ed



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 20 21:08:53 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: CF cause of Spontaneous Human Combustion?
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At 10:24 PM 6/20/99, Edward Kauffmann wrote:
>I just watched The Unexplained on A&E about Spontaneous Human Combustion and
>I was thinking there might be a connection.
[snip]

I share your thinking on that.  I suspect the connection is potassium,
either by the 40K connection, or maybe as a hydrino forming catalyst.
Maybe it is just a self sustaining carbon pyrolysis of some form.

Here is something I wrote in 1997, slightly modified in the opening
paragraph to protect the innocent.  It is glaring proof of my home
coordinates continuing to be located somewhere in the nebulous free energy
lunatic fringe.  8^)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The underwater discharge phenomenon we are investigating represents a new
medium or tool with which to explore for a new source of energy, i.e. an
"over unity", "ou", or "excess heat" device.  The underwater discharge
device does share or can be designed to share within it many
characteristics or physical environments similar to previously reported ou
phenomena.  It is rich in degrees of freedom, operating ranges, and design
flexibility.

First the question arises, is there any realistic basis for hope that a
robust ou solution will be found?  I say yes.  Aside from all the
relatively small heat results published and debated, (e.g. P&F, Patterson,
Piantelli, Griggs, Claytor, Bass & CG, pseudospark phenomena, etc.) the
phenomenon of spontaneous human combustion (SHC) stands out in my mind as
justification for that position.  There is police and other witness
testimony, taken under oath, and other evidence, including still living
victims, coroners reports, and photographic evidence.  If the  SHC
phenomenon is real, and I think from the evidence there is a reasonable
probability it is, then there exists a truly robust, water environment,
heat generation phenomenon driving it.  Combusting a human body into white
ash, including the bones, with only the body as fuel, and in the presence
of 60 percent water, involves a source of heat outside the scope of present
knowledge.  Let's assume for the moment that some SHC reports are genuine,
and see what can be determined from that assumption.  The ou methods of
P&F, etc., will be foremost in our minds while pursuing things to test in
our USP devices, so we need not have much concern about adapting those
approaches.  Further, through the normal course of events, nature herself
will reveal a few things and even more mysteries to unravel.  This email is
an attempt to venture beyond these more obvious approaches to experimental
program design, and venture into a more grey realm less likely to be
reached without straying off the beaten path.

Now the question arises, what is a good strategy for a broad Edisonian
search of USP?  In some situations, a good strategy is to throw together as
many elements as possible into a single test.  This strategy has been
employed to some extent in aids testing, for example.  If you mix the blood
for 6 samples together, and then get a negative test for the antibodies,
all 6 samples are known to be negative, saving the cost of 5 tests.
However, when a positive is obtained, at least 5 more tests must be made,
and, unless they are all negative, incurring the cost of an extra test to
verify. It is of course possible to do 3 and 3 then, etc.  The least
expensive testing strategy depends on the expected positive hit rate.

Unfortunately we don't have a situation that simple. It may take a
combination of factors together at the same moment to get a positive hit.
It is also essential not to throw elements into a test that could force
other positive combinations of elements in the test to be quenched or
suppressed.  Unfortunately also is the fact we do not know what elements
are incompatible, i.e. which elements and concentrations might quench a SHC
type reaction.  However, we do know that the elements and concentrations in
the human body are not likely to do that, at least in the special
circumstances where it actually happened.  We also know it is possible for
clothing to cause sparks, thus it is reasonable to assume such a SHC
reaction may be caused by sparks or be electrically initiated.  Based on
some case histories, it is also possible the SHC reaction is intiated by
focused or prolonged sunlight, and may be partially due to dehydration.
So, light may possibly be a trigger.  Minimum element concentrations may be
an ignition factor.  More importantly, we know that at least at some edge
of the envelope of the human condition, the elements in the human body, in
natural proportions, are *sufficient* to cause the reaction, and that in
those cases nothing in the human body was *sufficient to quench* the
reaction until it reached the ends of the extremities, leaving only the
lower legs, feet, wrists and hands of the victims.

The main elements in the human body, 95 % by weight, are O, H, C, and N.
The remaining elements include Ca and P, another 3% of body weight, and, in
order of decreasing amounts, K, Na, Mg, Fe, Z, Cu, and traces of V, Cr, S,
and Se.

The fact that SHC usually leaves behind only the ends of the victims'
extremities is an indication that the process must be related in some
respect to a critical mass.  When fuel becomes too sparse, geometrically
speaking, the reaction suddenly stops.  One hypothesis that roughly fits
this scenario is muon catalyzed fusion.  If some cosmic event should cause
an intense and focused beam of muons to magically fall from the sky at a
particular square yard and hit someone, then maybe only the largest most
connected regions of the body could prevent escape of large numbers of
muons.  Or maybe sufficient heat retention is necessary to sustain the
reaction.  However, muon catalyzed fusion seems an unlikely explanation, if
only because the event would have to occur so fast the body would explode.
It is likely there are lots of other wild hypotheses containing
pre-conditions for SHC that are not reproducible by or relevent to the USP
environments.

We further know that most humans do not spontaneously combust, even when
subjected to extreme radiation, immense heat, flames, and light, and
extreme sparking conditions, including high voltage electrocution.  There
must be a very special set of circumstances that triggers the event.

One of the more interresting SHC cases involved a physician whose diet, for
long periods, consisted of nothing but shredded wheat and coffee.  (I
sometimes wonder if maybe he didn't have a bannanna with that shredded
wheat to get his potassium, at least on the fateful day he self immolated.)
Maybe one approach to making an electrolyte for USP is to burn meat,
coffee and shredded wheat in a crucible, soak the ashes in water, and then
filter, or..., maybe not filter.  It sure would be advantageous to have a
chemical analysis of the SHC ashes vs normal human ashes.  One thing that
bothers me about all this is the fact you never hear about spontaneously
combusting cows!  If humans can do it why not cows, sheep, birds, fish,
worms, etc.?  Now not only must pigs fly, they must self barbecue!

One question of interest is whether a solid matrix of some kind is
necessary to initiate or sustain a reaction.  If so, the only such marix
readily apparent in the human body is the skeleton.  Possibly dried bone,
or bone meal, or a calcium matrix of some kind, would be of interest to
incorporate in a USP test.

It is especially notable that the human body does not naturally contain
solid metal.  We do have dental fixtures, mercury poisoning, aluminum
poisoning (darn those pickle makers that put alum in their pickles!), bone
plates, etc., but I don't recall hearing about those things being
significant.  Also, the living SHC victims did not have the SHC initiate in
their mouths, etc.  So, it seems safe to assume that a metal electrode is
not necessary.  If not solid metal, though, what?  The capacitive electrode
cell is an idea, but without internal metal, then how and where to generate
the sparks?  Also there is the question of whether metal might subdue a SHC
type reaction. If not, then metal electrodes are fine.  I wonder if some
kind of an insulating membrane or very thin sheet of material between two
solutions might be a good regime.

One possibility to consider as a way for SHC to start is microwave or other
radiation.  Another possibility is direct induction.  None of these seem
like very likely initiators.  Well, except maybe for people located near
the end of a military runway...

In addition to the mysteries of the initiation of SHC is the mechanism for
sustaining the reaction in a water environment.  This does not seem
possible to me unless water itself is the fuel.  A nuclear reaction like
1H1 + 16O -> 17F is required to sustain this.  Also, the reaction must
produce further initiating conditions for the next reaction.  Beyond that,
the reaction must be moderated in some fashion, or else it would be a bang,
which it is not.  SHC scenes frequently have a sickly sweet smell, like
buring sugar.  That further indicates to me the heat source is unlikely
carbon, not only because of an insufficient quantity, but also because it
would be nearly fully converted to CO or CO2. Any reaction that burns a
body and leaves a sweet smell must be very wierd.

The reaction 1H1 + 16O -> 17F results in 17F, which has a half life of 64.5
s. 17F beta decays into 17O with an energy of 2.761 MeV, which should be
clearly detectable. It is of interest that 17O is stable, and has a 0.04
percent natural abundance.

Well, I have done a fair job here of showing why SHC can not exist.
However, there is significant evidence it does.  If it does, it offers
clues to reaching the goal sought, and specific questions that need
answers. Whether SHC exists or not, SHC consideration provides grist for
the idea mill.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 20 21:25:19 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Analysis of PLEC & other Japanese data
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At 7:35 PM 6/20/99, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
[snip]
>  If interested, please send email back with this
>header, and the URL (or a zip file) will be returned
>when the assembled page is up shortly, for a period a few
>days, for comments, feedback, criticism, suggestions, etc.,
>prior to its submission.

I am interested.  However, no zip files please!  It's a good way to spread
viruses.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 20 22:27:52 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Analysis of PLEC & other Japanese data
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 01:28:11 -0400
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>At 7:35 PM 6/20/99, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>[snip]
>>  If interested, please send email back with this
>>header, and the URL (or a zip file) will be returned
>>when the assembled page is up shortly, for a period a few
>>days, for comments, feedback, criticism, suggestions, etc.,
>>prior to its submission.
>
>I am interested.  However, no zip files please!  It's a good way to spread
>viruses.

You're a programmer, Horace, you can check the contents before you unzip it.
Anyway, I'd like to see the summary, too, if I may.  If we can guess what is
on it beforehand, do we get a prize?

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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Thank you Mike,
Yes I have considered using Gd, Curie Point about 16C. Its jolly expensive
from Goodfellows in Cambrdige though, 500 pounds sterling for 50g.

We believe we ought to try something like Mn2Sn or gold ol fools gold,
iron disulphide FeS2 with Curie points about 0C - then we can use melting
ice as our temperature reference. Get things just right heat in, energy
out and the ice should neith melt more or freeze more ...

I'd been very grateful if you supplied that reference on the young lady.
Remi.

On Sun, 20 Jun 1999, Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Hey Remi,
> >Why not try Gallium? It melts in the hand no? It's common I think and non
> >toxic.
> >Remi.
> 
> I read your paper last night on Hartman's website.  Have you looked at
> Gadolinium?  I saw a story in The Home Shop Machinist magazine about a young
> woman who invented a heat engine, using this, and she won a state science
> fair or something.  Intel Corporation was all over her the next day.  This
> magazine is not on the web, but I can get you the address if you want.
> 
> Knuke
> 
> 
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 02:13:18 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: PLEC Mizuno Data
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 05:15:40 -0400
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Hi Scott,

Sorry to hassle you about this, but I downloaded the Mizuno spreadsheet
data, and my version of Excel is #4, and won't read the file.  I played
around with saving my own spreadsheets, and found that the only format that
they can be saved in that will transfer the data and the formulas is in the
Excel .xls format.  My Save As option does, however, allow me to save files
for versions of Excel that are earlier, and the formulas do come show up.
In any other formats, only the data shows up.  I wonder if it is possible
for you to save your spreadsheet in one of the formats that I can read.
Version 2.x to 4 will do.  I can do my own graphing, but I would like to see
the formulas.  Thanks,

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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To: Vortex

FWIW.

A couple of years ago I was making some Hydrogen Peroxide Vapor Sensors,
using Silver oxide films on PCBs.

The 500 angstrom silver coatings were sputtered onto polyimide printed
circuit boards that had the printed circuit pattern required. In order to
get the AgOx  boards were put in a "Box" that had UV-generating discharge
tubes that created substantial amounts of Ozone (O3) from the air
circulating through the "Box". Within a few hours the desired AgOx coatings
were attained. These sensors could detect H2O2 vapor in air, down to about
50 parts/billion.

This worked out well, where Aqueous Hydrogen Peroxide solutions wouldn't.

This might be of interest for developing PdOx  surface films.

Regards,    Frederick





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 06:01:56 1999
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From: "Mike Butcher" <michael kuyper.org>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <v01530501b393686c12f7 [12.21.208.118]>
Subject: Re: CF cause of Spontaneous Human Combustion?
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:16:13 +0100
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I did see a TV programme on SHC which explored the possibility that it could
be explained by the wick effect. This is a theory that has been proposed for
some time now but never been experimentally verified. The wick effect says
that a person (already dead, unconscious or drunk ) could be consumed like a
candle if a piece of their clothing got on fire which then melted the local
body fat and continued to use the rest of the body fat to consume the water
bones, last nights dinner etc. until all is consumed. A police officer (in
Australia I think) observed this on a murder victim that had been set on
fire to hide the evidence and left down an inaccessible ravine. He saw a
small part still burning on an otherwise complete body and returned several
hours later with a recovery team only to find the fire still burning but
only one leg remaining - the rest had been reduced to ashes. Anyway, the
programme makers arranged for this to be tried out on the carcass of a pig,
(Just the burning part not the murder and police involvement)  and low and
behold, it worked, very little damage to adjacent furniture and only
extremities were left (wings?) This would explain quite a few mysterious
cases when mainly people living alone have been found virtually consumed
except for the odd arm or lower leg etc. in otherwise untouched
surroundings.

The programme makers concluded that all cases could be explained by this
however they didn't mention the reports of people catching light in the
middle of dance floors accompanied by an orchestra and blue flashing lights
(a case I read about that occured in Brittain in the 60's). However, I was
thouroughly convinced by their experiment that the cases of bodies found
consumed alone in relatively undamaged rooms were made that way by this wick
phenomenum.

Mike Butcher


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 07:45:45 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: David Jonsson <David Bahnhof.se>
Subject: Re: Depleted Uranium
Cc: Gravitics1 aol.com
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At 12:15 1999-06-18 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Department of Defense
>32 CFR Part 178 
>
>"6. Depleted Uranium
>Depleted uranium (DU) is a byproduct of the uranium enrichment
>processes. DU is used in the commercial sector by the aircraft
>industry as counterweights, ...

This is not credible. In fact it's silly. Why would they use such a
controversial metal as DU for this trivial task?  Lead would be much
better, cheaper and non radiating. Lead has 60% of the weight of Uranium.
Why use counterweights in aircraft? It should be as leight as possible.
They probably had to write something about why DU is used by the aircraft
industry.

David

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 08:16:32 1999
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Message-ID: <376E5704.79F7F863 bellsouth.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:15:16 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Depleted Uranium
References: <v01530500b3900949a47a [12.21.208.201]> <3.0.5.32.19990621164626.00a45a50@mail.bahnhof.se>
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You mean there's lies printed in the Federal Registry?!?  Tell me it
can't be so!!

David Jonsson wrote:
> 
> At 12:15 1999-06-18 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >Department of Defense
> >32 CFR Part 178
> >
> >"6. Depleted Uranium
> >Depleted uranium (DU) is a byproduct of the uranium enrichment
> >processes. DU is used in the commercial sector by the aircraft
> >industry as counterweights, ...
> 
> This is not credible. In fact it's silly. Why would they use such a
> controversial metal as DU for this trivial task?  Lead would be much
> better, cheaper and non radiating. Lead has 60% of the weight of Uranium.
> Why use counterweights in aircraft? It should be as leight as possible.
> They probably had to write something about why DU is used by the aircraft
> industry.
> 
> David

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 08:18:53 1999
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Depleted Uranium
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David wrote:

>>Department of Defense
>>32 CFR Part 178
>>
>>"6. Depleted Uranium
>>Depleted uranium (DU) is a byproduct of the uranium enrichment
>>processes. DU is used in the commercial sector by the aircraft
>>industry as counterweights, ...
>
>This is not credible. In fact it's silly. Why would they use such a
>controversial metal as DU for this trivial task?  Lead would be much
>better, cheaper and non radiating. Lead has 60% of the weight of Uranium.
>Why use counterweights in aircraft? It should be as light as possible.
>They probably had to write something about why DU is used by the aircraft
>industry.


This is just a speculation: "Counterweights" are balancing weights designed
to compensate for asymmetries in rotating systems, like the balancing
weights (lead) added to automobile wheels to avoid vibration. For a
counterweight you want something dense (so it is small) and strong (so it
does not deform in a rapidly spinning system like a jet engine). Lead is not
strong and it melts at low temperatures. I don't know of anything
"controversial" about depleted uranium. It's useful in specialized
applications and not particularly harmful if used correctly. Any experts
want to comment? I didn't get it quite right in my previous comments about
the source of depleted uranium -- any better this time?

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 08:54:14 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 08:39:54 -0700
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Scott
	After looking at the measuring instrument specs from the URl posted
by Terry, I see that the integration time of the input power is either 1ms
or 10 ms (or 1 or 10 PLC's(whatever they are?)). If the 1ms value was used,
the input bandwidth is about 1000 Hz, and if 10ms, the bandwidth is about
100 Hz. The integrating time means that all the fluctuations in each
integration period are accumulted over this time, and reported as a single
sample number. I would suggest that the calibration of the input power be
examined carefully, and tested using several different methods. The simplest
being just a single resistor whose DC input power is measured with analog DC
instruments as well as the data logger. A multivibrator, or 555 timing chip
circuit could also be built and tested similarly. Lots of similar methods
can be posulated, even a noise generator could be used. It seems to me that
the best would be a test circuit that generates waveforms similar to those
observed in the experiment. In general, the lower the bandwidth, the better
for power measurements (within reason of course, you need to be able to see
slow scale chages.). The overall purpose being to establish credibility of
the power measuremnt in this particular experiment. 

Hank
> ----------
> From: 	Scott Little[SMTP:little eden.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Sunday, June 20, 1999 9:36 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
> 
> I have concluded that there is likely something wrong with Mizuno's input
> power data.  I can't be positive but there is considerable evidence to
> support my hypothesis.  I have written this up at:
> 
> http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/timeconstant.html
> 
> I'm alerting Mizuno to this possible problem and will report his reaction
> here.
> 
> 
> Scott Little 
> EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX
> 78759
> 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
> little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 09:08:04 1999
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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:05:36 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: CF cause of Spontaneous Human Combustion?
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>I just watched The Unexplained on A&E about Spontaneous Human Combustion and
>I was thinking there might be a connection.  There is an intense localized
>heat (excess heat, if you will) that consumes the person.  Our bodies are
>made up of a large amount of water with electrical impulses travelling all
>around in there.  In addition to the normal human body, what intake of
>matter and state of mind would cause such an event and how might it relate
>to CF?  In some of the old descriptions of SHC, alcoholics were more likely
>to have it happen to them...
>
>Ed

***{The cases of so called "spontaneous human combustion" were conclusively
explained, a year or so ago, as due to the "wicking effect." In a typical,
well-fed human, there is plenty of fat to fuel a blaze that will completely
consume the human body, bones and all. The obstacle to that combustion is
the water content, which has a high specific heat and must be steamed off
in the burning process. Normally, this obstacle is sufficient to prevent
combustion. However, there are certain circumstances where a wicking effect
permits this obstacle to be circumvented. Suppose, for example, that a fat
person is sitting in a chair smoking a cigarette, that the chair is on a
Persian rug which in turn is on a concrete floor, that the person dies of a
heart attack and slumps to the carpet with the cigarette still in his
fingers. Result: the burning cigarette next to his fingers causes fat to
ooze into the carpet, which then acts like a candle wick, permitting the
fat to be slowly consumed as it burns. The result is a long-lived, mild
fire that slowly sucks the fat out of the body and burns it, and has the
capability to consume the entire body, bones and all, over a period of many
hours, leaving nothing but the burned-out form of a human torso in the
Persian rug. It must be emphasized that his is not mere theory, but
experimentally verified fact: a dead pig was placed on a carpet, with a
cigarette placed under the edge of the body, and the wicking effect did, in
fact, consume the almost all of the carcass, bones and all. Only the ends
of some of the legs were left. (If memory serves, the article I read
appeared in *Science News*.) --Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 09:09:38 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: CF cause of Spontaneous Human Combustion?
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At 10:16 AM 6/21/99, Mike Butcher wrote:
[snip]
> ... the
>programme makers arranged for this to be tried out on the carcass of a pig,
>(Just the burning part not the murder and police involvement)  and low and
>behold, it worked, very little damage to adjacent furniture and only
>extremities were left (wings?)
[snip]

Typical SHC death reports indicate the presence of no bones, just fine
white ashes, in the burned part.  Even the high temperatures of cremation
do not reduce bones to a powder.  It takes a couple extra machines to do
that.  It does not sound credible that a wick could cause consumption of
bones.  I have tried igniting hams, etc., with no success, and no sign it
was possible to burn the meat this way, much less bones, and certainly not
with a sweet burning sugar smell, but I never tried a whole pig.  Did they
show the whole process on TV?

Some years ago on US TV (I don't recall which show) two people who
experienced spontaneously catching fire were interviewed.  One was a lady
who had a spot on her back near the shoulder start smoldering one morning.
There was no source for the fire and no apparent wick, but she and her
husband or man friend somehow manged to put it out.  She had a scar at the
place it supposedly happened.  The other person interviewed who caught fire
was a man who's upper arm caught fire while he was asleep.  He had had a
few.  If I recall correctly his arm was resting in or near a window, maybe
a car window, exposed to morning sunlight.  He had significant tissue loss.


It is unfortunate that you can never be sure these anecdotal things are
true.  There is a large body of evidence regarding SHC in police reports
though, so it seems to me likely it exits in one form or another.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 09:25:43 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: CF cause of Spontaneous Human Combustion?
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At 11:05 AM 6/21/99, Mitchell Jones wrote:
[snip]It must be emphasized that his is not mere theory, but
>experimentally verified fact: a dead pig was placed on a carpet, with a
>cigarette placed under the edge of the body, and the wicking effect did, in
>fact, consume the almost all of the carcass, bones and all. Only the ends
>of some of the legs were left. (If memory serves, the article I read
>appeared in *Science News*.) --Mitchell Jones}***

This is amazing.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 09:26:35 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
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George
	The energy for any current or voltage pulses comes from the output
capacitor of the power supply, or else is pickup by radiative or capacitive
transfer, which is small if the impedance level of the circuit is low..

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	George Holz[SMTP:george varisys.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Saturday, June 19, 1999 12:11 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
> 
> Scott wrote:
> >Wait a minute, George.  Since the voltage is very constant, we don't want
> >rms current.  We want average current.  
> -
> Oops, right. But without a large capacitor right at
> the data logger, we don't know that the voltage is constant
> there. High frequency transients could be present due to
> the nature of the load and the distance to the power supply.
> Even though the samples show a constant voltage, the
> shortest integration time for his meter is 1 ms and the
> transients during which most of the current flows may be
> in the 1 us or shorter range.
> -
> George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
> 732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
> 1924 US Hwy 22 East            Bound Brook NJ 08805
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 09:36:54 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: PLEC:  Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?
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Fred
	How poisonous is Mercury? When I was in high school, we used to coat
all our silver coins, like dimes and quarters(I'm dating my self here I
know)with Mercury, and carry them around in our pockets, and show them off
and sell them. I personally handled Mercury a lot. I even tried to distill
it in a glass condenser once, which broke releasing Mercury vapor all over
my mothers laumdry room. This was fifty years ago, and I am not aware of any
symptoms yet. How long does it take?

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Frederick  Sparber[SMTP:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Sunday, June 20, 1999 3:29 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: PLEC:  Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?
> 
> To: Vortex
> 
> Given that Mercury is so scary to work with, unless under strict safety
> measures, an alternative might be the low-melting fusible alloys of the
> heavy metals:
> 
> Tin        Bismuth       Lead         M.P. Deg  F
> 
> 60%       40%           ---                281
> 
> ---         55.5%        44.5%           255
> 
> The oxides formed should be reduced by Hydrogen in this application, after
> they do what Ed Storms suggests they do. I think.
> 
> Regards,      Frederick
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 10:03:17 1999
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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 19:58:16 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Subject: Re: PLEC:  Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?
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"Scudder, Henry J" wrote:

[snip]
> 
> I even tried to distill
> it in a glass condenser once, which broke releasing Mercury vapor all over
> my mothers laumdry room. This was fifty years ago, and I am not aware of any
> symptoms yet. How long does it take?
> 
> Hank
> 

Dont worry, I had boiled mercury few times 25 years ago in a very small kitchen without air circulation around. See, nothing happened to me. :) 

Mercury is useful for make soldering to Al. This also cause to grow fast Al oxide columns on a Al surface. They grow very fast, rate visible with eye.

Mercury is also useful to keep cockroaches forever from your bedroom if you spill lot of mercury trough down wood floor gaps.

Regards, hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 10:15:34 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
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Subject: RE: Analysis of PLEC & other Japanese data
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:12:34 -0700
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Mitchell
	I am interested.
Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Mitchell Swartz[SMTP:mica world.std.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Sunday, June 20, 1999 4:35 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Analysis of PLEC & other Japanese data
> 
> 
>   Dear Vorts:
> 
>    We will be putting up a draft manuscript involving
> Analysis of PLEC & other Japanese CF data for
> comments from vorts [and other interested parties]
> regarding a paper describing an analysis of the
> PLEC and other Japanese data.  
> 
>   This is a continuation of what was presented
> at ICCF7; and will expand with what appears to be
> more corroborating data, and info, not previously shown.
>   
>   If interested, please send email back with this
> header, and the URL (or a zip file) will be returned
> when the assembled page is up shortly, for a period a few
> days, for comments, feedback, criticism, suggestions, etc.,
> prior to its submission.
> 
>     Thanks.
>       Mitchell Swartz
> 
> 
>    
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 10:27:08 1999
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Subject: Carbon helium source is useless speculation
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This talk about helium secreting itself in carbon and being magically
released by deuterium but not hydrogen is a bunch of guff. There are two
outcomes to the SRI experiments:

1. Excess heat accompanying the helium production will be confirmed, or
some other nuclear effect, like exposure of an autoradiograph, will be
observed.  This will sweep away all basis for speculating about magical
helium nanotubes and what-have-you. One artifact cannot cause both helium
and excess heat, or helium and radiation.

2. Excess heat will not be confirmed. The helium will be a puzzling anomaly
which cannot be correlated with other evidence for cold fusion. The results
will be inconclusive at best.

For the record, I doubt that "carbon should act to selectively concentrate
hydrogen and helium from the atmosphere." It sounds farfetched. If it is
true, the phenomenon might have some commercial value, especially if you
can concentrate tritium and use carbon to clean up the stuff.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 10:27:22 1999
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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:12:11 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: PLEC:  Ohmori's Development of the Cell?
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Tom Stolper asks:

	How did Ohmori come to design his plasma electrolysis cell?

I'm not sure what you mean by that, Tom.


	Is he doing experiments with it, too, or is Mizuno doing all the
	experimental work?

The coauthors are Tadahiko Mizuno, Tadayoshi Ohmori and Tadashi Akimoto.
That's Akimoto on sax, Ohmori on bass . . . er, uh, I mean Akimoto plays a
riff on the neutron detector.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 10:35:01 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
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Subject: RE: CF cause of Spontaneous Human Combustion?
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:31:48 -0700
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Horace
	It has been suggested that humans would burn spontaneously if the
oxygen content surrounding them is above 40% or so. Maybe this could be
tested using a mouse or rat as a high school biology project. Put it in a
bell jar, and crank up the oxygen content, and see what happens. I'm sure
animal rights people would object, but I suspect your analysis is correct
and nothing would happen to the mouse.

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	hheffner mtaonline.net[SMTP:hheffner@mtaonline.net]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Sunday, June 20, 1999 9:08 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: CF cause of Spontaneous Human Combustion?
> 
> At 10:24 PM 6/20/99, Edward Kauffmann wrote:
> >I just watched The Unexplained on A&E about Spontaneous Human Combustion
> and
> >I was thinking there might be a connection.
> [snip]
> 
> I share your thinking on that.  I suspect the connection is potassium,
> either by the 40K connection, or maybe as a hydrino forming catalyst.
> Maybe it is just a self sustaining carbon pyrolysis of some form.
> 
> Here is something I wrote in 1997, slightly modified in the opening
> paragraph to protect the innocent.  It is glaring proof of my home
> coordinates continuing to be located somewhere in the nebulous free energy
> lunatic fringe.  8^)
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> - -
> The underwater discharge phenomenon we are investigating represents a new
> medium or tool with which to explore for a new source of energy, i.e. an
> "over unity", "ou", or "excess heat" device.  The underwater discharge
> device does share or can be designed to share within it many
> characteristics or physical environments similar to previously reported ou
> phenomena.  It is rich in degrees of freedom, operating ranges, and design
> flexibility.
> 
> First the question arises, is there any realistic basis for hope that a
> robust ou solution will be found?  I say yes.  Aside from all the
> relatively small heat results published and debated, (e.g. P&F, Patterson,
> Piantelli, Griggs, Claytor, Bass & CG, pseudospark phenomena, etc.) the
> phenomenon of spontaneous human combustion (SHC) stands out in my mind as
> justification for that position.  There is police and other witness
> testimony, taken under oath, and other evidence, including still living
> victims, coroners reports, and photographic evidence.  If the  SHC
> phenomenon is real, and I think from the evidence there is a reasonable
> probability it is, then there exists a truly robust, water environment,
> heat generation phenomenon driving it.  Combusting a human body into white
> ash, including the bones, with only the body as fuel, and in the presence
> of 60 percent water, involves a source of heat outside the scope of
> present
> knowledge.  Let's assume for the moment that some SHC reports are genuine,
> and see what can be determined from that assumption.  The ou methods of
> P&F, etc., will be foremost in our minds while pursuing things to test in
> our USP devices, so we need not have much concern about adapting those
> approaches.  Further, through the normal course of events, nature herself
> will reveal a few things and even more mysteries to unravel.  This email
> is
> an attempt to venture beyond these more obvious approaches to experimental
> program design, and venture into a more grey realm less likely to be
> reached without straying off the beaten path.
> 
> Now the question arises, what is a good strategy for a broad Edisonian
> search of USP?  In some situations, a good strategy is to throw together
> as
> many elements as possible into a single test.  This strategy has been
> employed to some extent in aids testing, for example.  If you mix the
> blood
> for 6 samples together, and then get a negative test for the antibodies,
> all 6 samples are known to be negative, saving the cost of 5 tests.
> However, when a positive is obtained, at least 5 more tests must be made,
> and, unless they are all negative, incurring the cost of an extra test to
> verify. It is of course possible to do 3 and 3 then, etc.  The least
> expensive testing strategy depends on the expected positive hit rate.
> 
> Unfortunately we don't have a situation that simple. It may take a
> combination of factors together at the same moment to get a positive hit.
> It is also essential not to throw elements into a test that could force
> other positive combinations of elements in the test to be quenched or
> suppressed.  Unfortunately also is the fact we do not know what elements
> are incompatible, i.e. which elements and concentrations might quench a
> SHC
> type reaction.  However, we do know that the elements and concentrations
> in
> the human body are not likely to do that, at least in the special
> circumstances where it actually happened.  We also know it is possible for
> clothing to cause sparks, thus it is reasonable to assume such a SHC
> reaction may be caused by sparks or be electrically initiated.  Based on
> some case histories, it is also possible the SHC reaction is intiated by
> focused or prolonged sunlight, and may be partially due to dehydration.
> So, light may possibly be a trigger.  Minimum element concentrations may
> be
> an ignition factor.  More importantly, we know that at least at some edge
> of the envelope of the human condition, the elements in the human body, in
> natural proportions, are *sufficient* to cause the reaction, and that in
> those cases nothing in the human body was *sufficient to quench* the
> reaction until it reached the ends of the extremities, leaving only the
> lower legs, feet, wrists and hands of the victims.
> 
> The main elements in the human body, 95 % by weight, are O, H, C, and N.
> The remaining elements include Ca and P, another 3% of body weight, and,
> in
> order of decreasing amounts, K, Na, Mg, Fe, Z, Cu, and traces of V, Cr, S,
> and Se.
> 
> The fact that SHC usually leaves behind only the ends of the victims'
> extremities is an indication that the process must be related in some
> respect to a critical mass.  When fuel becomes too sparse, geometrically
> speaking, the reaction suddenly stops.  One hypothesis that roughly fits
> this scenario is muon catalyzed fusion.  If some cosmic event should cause
> an intense and focused beam of muons to magically fall from the sky at a
> particular square yard and hit someone, then maybe only the largest most
> connected regions of the body could prevent escape of large numbers of
> muons.  Or maybe sufficient heat retention is necessary to sustain the
> reaction.  However, muon catalyzed fusion seems an unlikely explanation,
> if
> only because the event would have to occur so fast the body would explode.
> It is likely there are lots of other wild hypotheses containing
> pre-conditions for SHC that are not reproducible by or relevent to the USP
> environments.
> 
> We further know that most humans do not spontaneously combust, even when
> subjected to extreme radiation, immense heat, flames, and light, and
> extreme sparking conditions, including high voltage electrocution.  There
> must be a very special set of circumstances that triggers the event.
> 
> One of the more interresting SHC cases involved a physician whose diet,
> for
> long periods, consisted of nothing but shredded wheat and coffee.  (I
> sometimes wonder if maybe he didn't have a bannanna with that shredded
> wheat to get his potassium, at least on the fateful day he self
> immolated.)
> Maybe one approach to making an electrolyte for USP is to burn meat,
> coffee and shredded wheat in a crucible, soak the ashes in water, and then
> filter, or..., maybe not filter.  It sure would be advantageous to have a
> chemical analysis of the SHC ashes vs normal human ashes.  One thing that
> bothers me about all this is the fact you never hear about spontaneously
> combusting cows!  If humans can do it why not cows, sheep, birds, fish,
> worms, etc.?  Now not only must pigs fly, they must self barbecue!
> 
> One question of interest is whether a solid matrix of some kind is
> necessary to initiate or sustain a reaction.  If so, the only such marix
> readily apparent in the human body is the skeleton.  Possibly dried bone,
> or bone meal, or a calcium matrix of some kind, would be of interest to
> incorporate in a USP test.
> 
> It is especially notable that the human body does not naturally contain
> solid metal.  We do have dental fixtures, mercury poisoning, aluminum
> poisoning (darn those pickle makers that put alum in their pickles!), bone
> plates, etc., but I don't recall hearing about those things being
> significant.  Also, the living SHC victims did not have the SHC initiate
> in
> their mouths, etc.  So, it seems safe to assume that a metal electrode is
> not necessary.  If not solid metal, though, what?  The capacitive
> electrode
> cell is an idea, but without internal metal, then how and where to
> generate
> the sparks?  Also there is the question of whether metal might subdue a
> SHC
> type reaction. If not, then metal electrodes are fine.  I wonder if some
> kind of an insulating membrane or very thin sheet of material between two
> solutions might be a good regime.
> 
> One possibility to consider as a way for SHC to start is microwave or
> other
> radiation.  Another possibility is direct induction.  None of these seem
> like very likely initiators.  Well, except maybe for people located near
> the end of a military runway...
> 
> In addition to the mysteries of the initiation of SHC is the mechanism for
> sustaining the reaction in a water environment.  This does not seem
> possible to me unless water itself is the fuel.  A nuclear reaction like
> 1H1 + 16O -> 17F is required to sustain this.  Also, the reaction must
> produce further initiating conditions for the next reaction.  Beyond that,
> the reaction must be moderated in some fashion, or else it would be a
> bang,
> which it is not.  SHC scenes frequently have a sickly sweet smell, like
> buring sugar.  That further indicates to me the heat source is unlikely
> carbon, not only because of an insufficient quantity, but also because it
> would be nearly fully converted to CO or CO2. Any reaction that burns a
> body and leaves a sweet smell must be very wierd.
> 
> The reaction 1H1 + 16O -> 17F results in 17F, which has a half life of
> 64.5
> s. 17F beta decays into 17O with an energy of 2.761 MeV, which should be
> clearly detectable. It is of interest that 17O is stable, and has a 0.04
> percent natural abundance.
> 
> Well, I have done a fair job here of showing why SHC can not exist.
> However, there is significant evidence it does.  If it does, it offers
> clues to reaching the goal sought, and specific questions that need
> answers. Whether SHC exists or not, SHC consideration provides grist for
> the idea mill.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 10:35:25 1999
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At 08:39 6/21/99 -0700, Scudder, Henry J wrote:

>In general, the lower the bandwidth, the better
>for power measurements (within reason of course....)

That's what I keep coming up with, Hank.  And, despite all the talk, I
still can't see how a sampling meter is going to get the wrong average
result unless it was precisely synced with the fluctuations.  Even a very
small frequency difference (let alone the random nature of the real signal)
would allow many "beats" to occur over the hour-long runs we're conducting
and the average values would therefore prevail.

Just for completeness, I'm going to try a couple of "other" meters along
with the Clarke-Hess on my next run.

No word from Mizuno on my time constant hypothesis, yet.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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I think what is being ignored is the integration at the data logger. A/D's
with sample and hold circuits at the input have a similar effect. They
measure the charge transported by the current between sample points.

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Scott Little[SMTP:little eden.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Monday, June 21, 1999 10:35 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	RE: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
> 
> At 08:39 6/21/99 -0700, Scudder, Henry J wrote:
> 
> >In general, the lower the bandwidth, the better
> >for power measurements (within reason of course....)
> 
> That's what I keep coming up with, Hank.  And, despite all the talk, I
> still can't see how a sampling meter is going to get the wrong average
> result unless it was precisely synced with the fluctuations.  Even a very
> small frequency difference (let alone the random nature of the real
> signal)
> would allow many "beats" to occur over the hour-long runs we're conducting
> and the average values would therefore prevail.
> 
> Just for completeness, I'm going to try a couple of "other" meters along
> with the Clarke-Hess on my next run.
> 
> No word from Mizuno on my time constant hypothesis, yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 11:12:51 1999
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David,

Just a sampling of the hits I got on a web search.

"http://www.nucmet.com/spcuranum.htm"

AIRCRAFT COUNTERWEIGHTS
Starmet CMI operates the only Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) approved 
facility in the United States licensed to repair DU aircraft counterweights.

Wide body aircraft such as the Boeing 747, Lockheed L-1011, McDonnell Douglas 
DC-10 and Lockheed military C-130 all require the use of counter-balance weights 
for proper flight control. The counter-balance weights are needed on control 
surfaces such as ailerons and elevators. These control surfaces have 
insufficient surface clearance and area to accommodate lighter counter-weight 
materials. The high density of DU makes it ideally suited for this application. 
Although DU is a toxic heavy material similar to tungsten, it is completely 
isolated by our plating and coating process.

Starmet CMI can provide both new and refurbished DU counterweights: 

Refurbished Counterweights.
Normal operational use (exposure to weather conditions) requires periodic 
maintenance of DU counterweights. We have a complete refurbishing operation 
that:

Guarantees quick turnaround: expedited processing on request.  Reduces
inventories: we offer storage with overnight delivery to meet your repair 
schedules. Offers substantial cost savings over purchasing a new part.  Can
replace irreparable parts from float inventory at no extra charge (subject to 
availability) 

New Counterweights.
In addition to our refurbishing capabilities, our foundry operation can 
manufacture new DU counterweights to customers specifications. 


>This is not credible. In fact it's silly. Why would they use such a
>controversial metal as DU for this trivial task?  Lead would be much
>better, cheaper and non radiating. Lead has 60% of the weight of Uranium.
>Why use counterweights in aircraft? It should be as leight as possible.
>They probably had to write something about why DU is used by the aircraft
>industry.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 11:13:46 1999
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I've heard that Hg poisoning is cumalative. You might think you're okay,
then opps, you've had it.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 11:25:17 1999
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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:21:51 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
Resent-Message-ID: <"dyNmV2.0.di7.vCeRt" mx1>
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>I have concluded that there is likely something wrong with Mizuno's input
>power data.

***{It is a bit surprising that the Pin spikes at about 14:29 and 14:32
take it up to exactly the level of Pout, rather than above it. I would
expect that Mizuno's calorimeter would not recapture all of the output. Is
he, perhaps, using an internal recombiner?

Anyway, to explain the observed pattern via the spike hypothesis, we would
simply postulate that the distance of the Pin trace below Pout reflects the
degree to which the spike frequency is in sync with the sampling frequency
of Mizuno's meter. At 14:29 and at 14:32, for example, the spike frequency
briefly changed, taking it out of synch with the meter and permitting
accurate measurement of the input power. Result: Pin jumped up to equal
Pout.

Note that the spike frequency is presumed to be subject to occasional
changes which bring it out of tune with the meter. All I am doing, in
short, is reinterpreting the results a bit. Where the CF proponents want to
say that "the effect turned on," I am suggesting that the spike frequency
merely began to match the sampling frequency of the meter, and where the CF
proponents say the effect "turned off," I am suggesting that the spike
frequency merely went out of synch with the meter.

By the way, I would expect that there would be runs containing excursions
where "in tune" spikes uniformly hit on the samples, carrying Pin far above
Pout. While such runs might be more rare than the types of runs where Pin
falls below Pout, they should nevertheless occur. If they do not, that
would undercut the spike hypothesis. Therefore, does anybody know whether
some of Mizuno's runs show Pin excursions that are way above Pout?

--Mitchell Jones}***

 I can't be positive but there is considerable evidence to
>support my hypothesis.  I have written this up at:
>
>http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/timeconstant.html
>
>I'm alerting Mizuno to this possible problem and will report his reaction
>here.

***{The argument that you made on your web page, in essence, is that the
shape of Pin should track the shape of Pout more closely than it does. Jed,
on the other hand, argues that a jump in Pin would merely boil off more
steam, which would be vented and, thus, not taken into account by the
calorimeter. Is he correct in thinking that these calorimeters (Mizuno's
and yours) do not account for steam losses--i.e., that a significant amount
of steam is simply vented into the environment? If so, then the total
energy output of one of these cells would be the sum of (a) INT(0,T) Pout
dt, where T is the elapsed time, (b) the energy required for electrolytic
splitting of H2O, (c) the energy required for uv splitting of H2O, (d) the
energy required to drive the reaction W + 4H2O --> H2WO4 + 3H2, and (e) the
total heat of vaporization of the vented steam. Since Pout ignores (b),
(c), (d), and (e), I wonder if your run 6 wasn't wildly "over unity" after
all. The reason: depending on the total volume of electrolyte lost during
the course of a run, (e) could become very important. (At 70 deg C, the
heat of vaporization of water is about 557 cal/gm, so this type of loss
could become significant very quickly.) Therefore, do you know how much
steam was vented during your run 6? --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>Scott Little
>EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
>512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX)
>little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 11:38:19 1999
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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:37:10 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
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Mitchell Jones writes:

>I would
>expect that Mizuno's calorimeter would not recapture all of the output. Is
>he, perhaps, using an internal recombiner?

He is not using any recombiner. There is an external condensor. Both vapor
and gas escape, and carry off heat.


>***{The argument that you made on your web page, in essence, is that the
>shape of Pin should track the shape of Pout more closely than it does. Jed,
>on the other hand, argues that a jump in Pin would merely boil off more
>steam, which would be vented and, thus, not taken into account by the
>calorimeter.

I do not 'argue' that exactly; I am reporting what Mizuno said, and what
the photos and vidoes of these cells show.


>Is he correct in thinking that these calorimeters (Mizuno's
>and yours) do not account for steam losses--i.e., that a significant amount
>of steam is simply vented into the environment?

How could they?!?


 If so, then the total
>energy output of one of these cells would be the sum of (a) INT(0,T) Pout
>dt, where T is the elapsed time, (b) the energy required for electrolytic
>splitting of H2O, (c) the energy required for uv splitting of H2O, (d) the
>energy required to drive the reaction W + 4H2O --> H2WO4 + 3H2, and (e) the
>total heat of vaporization of the vented steam.

Yes, that is the equation Mizuno uses, but not in the POut trace shown in
the graph. That is strictly heat recovered by the flow. Mizuno computers
total enthalpy after weighing the condensate.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 11:50:40 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
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At 13:21 6/21/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>***{The argument that you made on your web page, in essence, is that the
>shape of Pin should track the shape of Pout more closely than it does. Jed,
>on the other hand, argues that a jump in Pin would merely boil off more
>steam, which would be vented and, thus, not taken into account by the
>calorimeter. Is he correct in thinking that these calorimeters (Mizuno's
>and yours) do not account for steam losses--i.e., that a significant amount
>of steam is simply vented into the environment?

Jed pointed out that Mizuno condenses the steam coming from his cell and
posted some data from Mizuno that showed that, in the case of Mizuno's
flow-calorimetry experiments (where the cell is apparently prevented from
wholesale boiling), the heat lost in the steam is negligible.

I matched that result in my Run 5, where I condensed the water vapor
leaving the cell (which ran around 90C during the run) and calculated that
only about 0.3 watts was being removed from the cell...negligible in the
face of 120 watts of input power.

>...Therefore, do you know how much
>steam was vented during your run 6?

Similar to Run 5.  The operating conditions are nearly identical.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 12:02:46 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
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Scott Little wrote:

>Jed pointed out that Mizuno condenses the steam coming from his cell and
>posted some data from Mizuno that showed that, in the case of Mizuno's
>flow-calorimetry experiments (where the cell is apparently prevented from
>wholesale boiling), the heat lost in the steam is negligible.

Negligable or not, the steam and gas release *must* chop off the top of the
POut line. The solution can never get any hotter than the terminal
temperature it reaches when boiling begins, unless you bundle on more
insulation or turn off the fan cooling the cell, or change something else
external to the cell.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 12:20:11 1999
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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:06:14 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: RE: PLEC:  Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?
Resent-Message-ID: <"DWF_X1.0.EE6.p_eRt" mx1>
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>Fred
>	How poisonous is Mercury? When I was in high school, we used to coat
>all our silver coins, like dimes and quarters(I'm dating my self here I
>know)with Mercury, and carry them around in our pockets, and show them off
>and sell them. I personally handled Mercury a lot. I even tried to distill
>it in a glass condenser once, which broke releasing Mercury vapor all over
>my mothers laundry room. This was fifty years ago, and I am not aware of any
>symptoms yet. How long does it take?
>
>Hank

***{The "dangers" of metallic mercury are mostly just environmentalist
bullshit, Hank. Similar comments could be made about lots of
environmentalist bugaboos. For example, do you remember back in the 40's
and 50's, when the spraying machines drove through city streets, disgorging
enormous clouds of DDT into the air, and kids rode along behind them on
their bicycles, veering in and out of the clouds? I did that, 50 years ago,
and I, like you, am not aware of any symptoms yet. :-) Why do people
believe the bullshit? Because they assume that the leaders of the
environmentalist movement have good intentions--i.e., that they are looking
out for our interests rather than pursuing some fascistic hidden agenda of
their own. If large numbers of people should ever begin to see fascism for
what it is, some rather large social upheavals could occur. More than
likely, however, that will not happen: the majority rules, and most people
believe whatever they perceive to be socially expedient, however absurd it
may be. --Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 12:21:53 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: He Cold fusion
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:17:56 -0700
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Colin
	Please send me Mark Hugos e-mail address . I seem to have lost it. I
am also interested in any data or reports of his.
Thank you,
Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Colin Rickert[SMTP:colinrickert hotmail.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Monday, June 21, 1999 7:03 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	He Cold fusion
> 
> 
> 
> A word of WARNING right up front: This is potentially VERY DANGEROUS work
> and must not be done without maximum, safety precautions and supervision
> by those thoroughly versed in laboratory safety!  It involves
> high-temperatures, high-voltages, explosive mi xtures of oxygen and
> hydrogen, caustic solutions, and steam generation that if improperly
> contained could cause a deadly explosion. These are just the beginning
> hazards. This is unknown territory.  Drs. Ohmori and Mizuno measured the
> transmutation of elem ents in this experiment. Thus, until further notice
> ^Ë and despite your possible skepticism about their claim of transmutation
> ^Ë this work must be considered, by definition, nuclear experimentation.
> With that said, we encourage every thoughtful group who can do this
> experiment safely to attempt it. Infinite Energy and Cold Fusion
> Technology, Inc. take no responsibility for the known or unknown radiation
> or other hazards that are associated this experiment.
> 
> *********************************
> 
> Dear Colleagues:
> 
> After much work we now have what appears to be a marvelous do-it-yourself
> "cold fusion" experiment. Any reasonably equipped chem/physics lab can see
> the effect within days to a week -- if they get their act together. The
> experiment has the following quali ties:
> 
> 1. It is visually and audibly spectacular -- brilliant glowing, pink,
> purple, lavender with white flashes on an underwater tungsten (W)
> electrode ( e.g. 2 mm x 5 mm W foil or 1 cm x 1.6 mm diameter tungsten
> welding rod). A plasma-like underwater discharge on the electrode that
> often manages to disintegrate or melt tungsten underwater with only about
> 50 to 80 watts of power over a short period. (Tungsten's melting point is
> 3680 K or thereabouts.) The sound of the underwater "explosions" on the
> cathode -- brilliant white flashes on the purple background plasma -- is
> very impressive.
> 
> 2. It is *totally reproducible* -- at will -- with no loading time as in
> the Pd/heavy water experiments
> 
> 3. Calorimetry is simple to do because there is so much steam energy
> evolved from the reaction that by simply tallying the amount of water
> vaporized as steam, one gets over-unity every time (so far). Three groups
> have already gotten *preliminary* over-unity results: 1. Ohmori and Mizuno
> in Japan, who introduced the phenomenon at ICCF-7 (O/U estimated at
> 2.6/1); 2. Gene Mallove and FAA engineer Ed Wall here in Bow, NH during
> the past ten days -- work continuing -- (CONSERVATIVELY 1.4/1); 3.
> Engineer Mark Hugo of Northern States Power in Minnesota (but his
> affiliation has nothing to do with his home experiment) -- (CONSERVATIVELY
> 1.5/1), but owrk still continuing to check for errors. Chemist John
> Thompson in the Bahamas, who attended ICCF-7, was the first person outside
> of Japan to reproduce the effect and will do calorimetry on it soon. This
> will be in IE #20 out on July 22.
> 
> 4. No one has patents or may be able to get them since the effect was
> noticed in other forms (1916!) and reported extensively in the Journal of
> the Electrochemical Society, April, 1950, p.133 in an article titled ("The
> Anode Effect in Aqueous Electrolysis," by Herbert Kellogg of the School of
> Mines, Columbia University. New York -- Hal Fox found this marvelous
> article, since it relates to some of the work his Trenergy Company is
> doing weith charge clustgers and radioactivity reduction. This may,
> indeed, be related to the underwater electrolysis ability to remediate
> nuclear waste. But -- OF COURSE! -- NO *calorimetry* was done in 1950. No
> one had any idea that such simple systems could be O/U. The systems were
> studied for other reasons.  Further: the present tungsten effect is seen
> mainly on the cathode, but it can make the Pt anode incandescent too at
> lower water temperature (say 50 C) -- we normally work over 80 C. It is
> very mysterious -- was so to Kellogg in 1950 and remains so.
> 
> 5. Ohmori and Mizuno found major evidence for transmutation of elements
> and volcanic ejection of metals from the tungsten surface -- these SEM
> photos were reproduced in their article. They find Hg, Os, Kr, Zn, Cu, Ni,
> Fe, Cr, Si, and Mg -- with anomalous isotopic content. Just as I said, in
> IE #15/16, this subject is more properly called ³Electro-Alchemy"
> 
> 6. WARNING: Ohomori and Mizuno experienced significant apparent
> electromagnetic effects on their instruments. They were unsure whether
> some of the effect on their neutron counter were evidence of neutrons -- I
> doubt the latter, as did Srinivasan of BARC at ICCF7. I have kept a Geiger
> counter on during our experiments -- absolutely no sign of major ionizing
> radiation, but of course it could be localized within the cell.
> 
> Ohmori and Mizuno's paper at ICCF7: " Strong Excess Energy Evolution, New
> Element Production, and Electromagnetic Wave And/Or Neutron Emission in
> the Light Water Electrolysis with a Tungsten Cathode."  T. Ohmori and T.
> Mizuno, Catalysis Research Center, H okkaido University
> 
> Here is my recommended recipe for an experiment to demonstrate the effect:
> 
> 1. Take a 250 ml glass beaker, fill to about 200 ml level with 0.5 molar
> (0.5 M) K2CO3 -- potassium carbonate solution
> 
> 2. Get 0.5 mm diameter Pt wire for both anode and cathode leads -- about
> 15 cm for each lead is adequate length. Shield them with teflon tubing
> down to the connection point with the Pt or W.
> 
> 3. Use a small piece of Pt foil -- about 2 mm x 5mm on the anode (positive
> lead) crimped mechanically to the Pt wire -- no welding is needed.
> 
> 4. Use a 2 mm x 5 mm size W foil on the cathode - negative side. It is
> tricky to attach the W foil (we used 0.1 mm thickness, which can be
> pierced with difficulty and the Pt lead wired through). Or, if W welding
> rod 1/16-inch diameter is available, wrap t he Pt wire around the W piece
> about 0.5 to 1 cm long. Warning: The reaction is so violent that it is
> hard to get the cathode piece in rod form not to fall out of its Pt wire
> cage! Runs up to 10 minutes or so are usually OK. Mark Hugo has run for up
> to 75 minutes , condunsing steam from the reaction -- but he has put other
> ingredients into the brew such as Li, and he has used a thicker cathode of
> 1/8-inch W rod.
> 
> 5. Get a DC power supply up to 5 amps capacity and up to 200 volts. (I am
> eager to try beyond 180 volts, but we may need a concrete bunker before we
> try that! Eager also to try heavy water!)  You can use a variac AC source
> to make DC power-- use a bridge rectifier and capacitor to make DC from
> the AC output. Install voltage and current metering devices -- digital
> display preferred, data acquisition system if you want to get fancy on the
> calorimetry later. I'm sure Scott Little and Mitch Swartz cojuld do this
> soon if they put their equipment into this specialized service. This is an
> excellent experiment for Barry Merriman too!
> 
> 6. Heat up the beaker solution to 80 C either by electrolysis at low DC
> input power -- e.g. 20 V, 1.8 to 2 amps -- or with an external hot plate.
> (Turn off the hot plate and **remove it** if calorimetry is being used.)
> At about 80 deg --sometimes at a lower temperature -- crank up the volts
> to 120 to 180. The effect changes appearance as voltage increases. Current
> will drop substantially to 0.2 to 0.4 amps as the sheath of steam
> surrounds the glowiing plasma-sheathed cathode. Keep an alcohol
> thermometer suspended in the solution to measure the temperature. I would
> *initially* avoid thermocouples because of the threat of violent
> electromagnetic interference in this unknown phenomena.
> 
> In calorimetric assessment: Heating credit should be taken for the full
> mass of water in the cell from the initial temperature of say 80 C to the
> boiling point. However, you may find it difficult to push the average
> solution temperature up to 100C (we were only in the low to mid 90s),
> because the steam ejected cools the solution so rapidly. The boiling point
> is elevated -- McKubre estimated to me in aprivate communciation by only
> 0.25 deg C for such a solution). This is wonderful, because we WANT steam.
> It will be no problem at all to power steam engines with this, if pending
> thorough verification of excess energy (This *is* work in progress that
> must be confirmed!) we figure out how to get the power ratio high enough,
> if it is not there already. The main source of the excess is the amount
> boiled off: water vaporized requires about 2260 J/gm.
> 
> Why was this missed by other cold fusion people? Simple: everyone was
> looking for a sedate reaction that P&F had started with when the real pay
> off was in these higher voltage systems that trigger with metals like
> tungsten. W is recommended due to its temperature resistance, but John
> Thompson has found that other metals such as Al, Cu, Ni, and Zr also work
> -- as far as the *visible* effect. The colors of the emissions are
> different -- different hot plasma near the cathode surface.
> 
> Other parameters that need to be explored:
> 
> * Higher voltage
> 
> * Can energy be extracted from the recycled water after steam condensation
>   or if Mills-type hydrinos are formed, do they become "inert"?
> 
> * Other electrolytes -- KCl also works, according to Thompson, try higher
>   molarity values
> 
> * Other metals
> 
> * Pressurized systems -- BE CAREFUL!!!
> 
> * Recombine oxygen and hydrogen -- but a very small part of the effect,
>   undoubtedly -- to get extra energy in the output
> 
> * Try heavy water in various mixtures with light water
> 
> * Detect electromagnetic pulse from the device -- if it is there as they
>   found in Japan
> 
> * Examine the element production and non-natural isotope ratios formed
> 
> * SEM imaging for morphology of craters
> 
> * Look for radiation -- use film fogging techniques, CR-39 plastic
>   detectors, etc.
> 
> This will keep a lot of people busy for a long time. As soon as we pin
> down the thermal characteristics a bit more, we and others well be
> hell-bent to scale up to larger power-producing units -- with SAFETY FIRST
> as our motto.
> 
> **********
> 
> 
> This is a typical, very brief O/U investigation run that Ed Wall and I
> performed here recently in an uninsulated glass beaker on a metal surface
> -- VERY rough calculation, conservative, we think. Among other factors
> reducing effect apart from ZERO insulation is the recondensation and
> re-boiling of material -- we had a plastic cover on the beaker with holes
> drilled in it. A distillation recondensation device would be preferred to
> observe water evolved as steam.
> 
> Input: 0.7 to 0.8 amps, avg 0.75 A input at 168 volts = 26,590 J
> 
> Duration: 3 minutes, 31 seconds
> 
> Solution reduced from 183 ml to 173 ml due to boil-off
> 
> Output = 10 x 2260 J/gm H2O + 183 x (about 15 C rise during heating to
> full boiling at about 92 C) x 4.18 J/gm C = 34,060
> 
> output/input = 1.28
> 
> Credit for uninsulated vessel and re-bailing of condnsed liquid could
> easily push this to 1.40 and beyond. Much more work needs to be done.
> 
> I hope that other Vortexians will try this -- CAREFULLY, please!
> 
> ************
> 
> Ohmori and Mizuno did calorimatry on the last few mintues BEFORE boiling
> and compared the rate of temperature rise to that of a joule heater's
> effect on the same volume of electrolyte. That's how they got their 2.6/1.
> 
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 12:35:41 1999
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: PLEC:  Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?
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----- Original Message -----
From: Scudder, Henry J <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 10:35 AM
Subject: RE: PLEC: Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?

Hank Scudder wrote:


> Fred
> How poisonous is Mercury? When I was in high school, we used to coat
> all our silver coins, like dimes and quarters(I'm dating my self here I
> know)with Mercury, and carry them around in our pockets, and show them off
> and sell them. I personally handled Mercury a lot. I even tried to distill
> it in a glass condenser once, which broke releasing Mercury vapor all over
> my mothers laumdry room. This was fifty years ago, and I am not aware of
any
> symptoms yet. How long does it take?

It takes fifty-one  years,  Hank!     :-)

About sixty years ago I got hold of a bottle of mercury and "silvered " a
rare coin collection that my great-grandfather and grandfather has passed
down to my dad. The "treatment" I received was worse than any mercury
effects.

Like any other toxic chemical, if you treat it with respect it can be used a
lot safer than ethanol.

The Self-Healing Properties, Slight Solubility (Hg or HgO) in H2O-D2O, HgO
formation at 300 to 350 C with decomposition at 500 C, Amalgamation of
Potassium-K2O, 357 C boiling point, and about all the other positive
attributes for the Oxide film formation etc., makes it well worth
considering for the Mizuno Experiment.  All of the Mercury batteries and
electonics devices in use indicates that it can be used safely.  I can't
find the date that there was a Multimegawatt Power Plant in Hartford Conn.,
that used a Mercury-Steam "Hybrid". it improved the generating efficiency by
about 40%.

Regards,   Frederick
>
> Hank
>



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 12:38:11 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC:  Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?
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----- Original Message -----
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: PLEC: Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?

Hamdi wrote:

>
> Dont worry, I had boiled mercury few times 25 years ago in a very small
kitchen without air circulation around. See, nothing happened to me. :)
>
> Mercury is useful for make soldering to Al. This also cause to grow fast
Al oxide columns on a Al surface. They grow very fast, rate visible with
eye.
>
> Mercury is also useful to keep cockroaches forever from your bedroom if
you spill lot of mercury trough down wood floor gaps.

Heavy Breathing in the Bedroom, can be caused by this, Hamdi.   :-)

Regards,     Frederick
>
> Regards, hamdi ucar
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 13:21:25 1999
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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:18:42 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990621150059.007fa100 pop.mindspring.com>
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Another comment about this statement:

>Jed pointed out that Mizuno condenses the steam coming from his cell and
>posted some data from Mizuno that showed that, in the case of Mizuno's
>flow-calorimetry experiments (where the cell is apparently prevented from
>wholesale boiling), the heat lost in the steam is negligible.

In the sample data set he sent me steam and gas losses were negligible, and
he said the losses are generally lower with flow calorimetry because the
electrolyte water stays cooler, but I do not know if the losses are always
negligible. In particular, I have no idea what they were for the data set
graphed on Scott's web page with the chopped POut line. We should ask Mizuno.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 13:48:39 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Subject: RE: Carbon helium source is useless speculation
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I agree, Jed.  There's nothing wrong with using one's imagination in
science, but it has to be within the rigid confines of what is most likely.
The possibility of psychically produced helium is impossible to rule out,
but I'm not too concerned about it.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

"It is scientific only to say what's more likely and less likely and not to
be proving all the time possible and impossible."
Richard Feynman, 1964

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell infinite-energy.com]
> Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 1:25 PM
> To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> Subject: Carbon helium source is useless speculation
>
>
> This talk about helium secreting itself in carbon and being magically
> released by deuterium but not hydrogen is a bunch of guff. There are two
> outcomes to the SRI experiments:
>
> 1. Excess heat accompanying the helium production will be confirmed, or
> some other nuclear effect, like exposure of an autoradiograph, will be
> observed.  This will sweep away all basis for speculating about magical
> helium nanotubes and what-have-you. One artifact cannot cause both helium
> and excess heat, or helium and radiation.
>
> 2. Excess heat will not be confirmed. The helium will be a
> puzzling anomaly
> which cannot be correlated with other evidence for cold fusion.
> The results
> will be inconclusive at best.
>
> For the record, I doubt that "carbon should act to selectively concentrate
> hydrogen and helium from the atmosphere." It sounds farfetched. If it is
> true, the phenomenon might have some commercial value, especially if you
> can concentrate tritium and use carbon to clean up the stuff.
>
> - Jed
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 13:55:56 1999
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 <3.0.5.32.19990620113648.00905830 mail.eden.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:50:53 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
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>At 13:21 6/21/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>***{The argument that you made on your web page, in essence, is that the
>>shape of Pin should track the shape of Pout more closely than it does. Jed,
>>on the other hand, argues that a jump in Pin would merely boil off more
>>steam, which would be vented and, thus, not taken into account by the
>>calorimeter. Is he correct in thinking that these calorimeters (Mizuno's
>>and yours) do not account for steam losses--i.e., that a significant amount
>>of steam is simply vented into the environment?
>
>Jed pointed out that Mizuno condenses the steam coming from his cell and
>posted some data from Mizuno that showed that, in the case of Mizuno's
>flow-calorimetry experiments (where the cell is apparently prevented from
>wholesale boiling), the heat lost in the steam is negligible.
>
>I matched that result in my Run 5, where I condensed the water vapor
>leaving the cell (which ran around 90C during the run) and calculated that
>only about 0.3 watts was being removed from the cell...negligible in the
>face of 120 watts of input power.

***{My understanding of your setup may be flawed, but I have been assuming
that the "flow calorimeter" portion of your setup is external to the cell
itself, and that the cell is just a beaker full of electrolyte with the
necessary electrodes and instrumentation. If so, it strikes me as highly
implausible that such a cell could operate for more than an hour without
boiling off a significant portion of the electrolyte. In the original
"Boiled Lightning" article in *Infinite Energy*, for example, I believe
they started with 200 ml of electrolyte and wound up with 100 ml after
about a run of a bit less than an hour. For example, suppose that they
boiled off 100 gms of water in a period of 50 minutes (3000 sec), from an
electrolyte which had an average temperature of 70 deg C during the run. In
that case, the relevant heat of vaporization would be 557 cal/gm, and
unaccounted power due to the venting of steam would be roughly
[(557)(100)(4.185)]/3000 = 77.7 joules/sec = 77.7 watts, which is most
assuredly *not* negligible. Therefore, what is there about the way you and
Mizuno are doing this experiment which prevents similar water vapor losses?
Is it merely the fact that you are running with the electrolyte at a lower
temperature, thereby encouraging the steam to immediately recondense, or is
there something else that is contributing to recondensation? Also, why do
you not simply weigh the electrolyte before and after a run, and compute
steam loss by subtracting weight out from weight in, rather than trying to
condense the effluent steam and measure the condensate? --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>>...Therefore, do you know how much
>>steam was vented during your run 6?
>
>Similar to Run 5.  The operating conditions are nearly identical.
>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 13:59:20 1999
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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:47:12 -0700
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From: Ross Tessien <tessien oro.net>
Subject: RE: PLEC:  Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?
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At 09:35 AM 6/21/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Fred
>	How poisonous is Mercury? When I was in high school, we used to coat
>all our silver coins, like dimes and quarters(I'm dating my self here I
>know)with Mercury, and carry them around in our pockets, and show them off
>and sell them. I personally handled Mercury a lot. I even tried to distill
>it in a glass condenser once, which broke releasing Mercury vapor all over
>my mothers laumdry room. This was fifty years ago, and I am not aware of any
>symptoms yet. How long does it take?
>
>Hank

It binds to cells / compounds in the liver, and is cumulative.  I would go
get a trace element analysis run to detect levels present based on that
much handling.  There are some chemicals they can have you ingest that will
leach out some of the Hg in your system, I seem to recall.  Check into a
PDR at a library for info I would think, and or on the net.  But based on
not just the handling, but the playing with the vapor state in boiling it,
and on having coins in the pocket where you handled it a lot, I would go
get a check up.

We used to play with it too, but not that much.  I do  know of some people
up here in the mountains that know of direct exposure situations where the
gold miners used to boil off the mercury on "rainy days" when they couldn't
work.  Of course they didn't want to get rained on, so they were boiling
off the Hg in the tent   aargh.  Some of those do have some symptoms and
cancers etc.  I also read about one woman who handled one particularly
deadly form of it and died fairly rapidly.

IOW, there could be some kinds of pills that you wouldn't want to take due
to their reaction with Hg present in the system.

All that said, I am an engineer, not a doctor, so I am just tossing out
food for thought that might be worth looking into.

rt


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At 01:24 PM 6/21/99 -0400, you wrote:
>This talk about helium secreting itself in carbon and being magically
>released by deuterium but not hydrogen is a bunch of guff. There are two
>outcomes to the SRI experiments:

We all know about osmotic membranes, and we know that H, D, and to a
degree, He can migrate through metals.  We also know about thermocouples,
which drive electrons preferentially in one direction at a junction between
disimilar metals.

I have wondered if H is more energetic in the metal walls than is D, such
that the H beats back any atmospheric He, whereas the D (which at the same
temperatures will have a lower velocity due to the larger mass, and hence
KE relations say half the normal velocity of H.  Anyway, it could be that
the flow of H out through the metal keeps the He from flowing in, whereas
the D, having a lower particle velocity, fails to keep the He out.

It would be interesting to run the test with a heavy, inert gas, such as
argon or something where the velocities would be even lower than D, and
where the gas selected is less likely to penetrate the metal walls, (so
maybe a high ionization temp molecular gas instead).  That way you could
test whether or not the walls behave as some sort of osmotic membrane to
the He.

rt


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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:59:03 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
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Mitchell Jones writes:

	Note that the spike frequency is presumed to be subject to
	occasional changes which bring it out of tune with the meter.
	All I am doing, in short, is reinterpreting the results a bit.
	Where the CF proponents want to say that "the effect turned on,"
	I am suggesting that the spike frequency merely began to match
	the sampling frequency of the meter, and where the CF proponents
	say the effect "turned off," I am suggesting that the spike
	frequency merely went out of synch with the meter.

The trouble with this hypothesis, as I pointed out earlier, is that Mizuno
uses a meter, an oscilloscope, and an old pen recorder simultaneously, and
the three instruments run at different rates, obviously. So you have to
postulate that the spike frequency magically began to match two different
instruments simultaneously, and this has happened hundreds of times over
the past year, and the meter and the scope were always, in every case,
exactly in tune with one-another (that is, the scope was exactly 10 or 100
or 1000 times faster than the meter and they started at the same
nanosecond). By a fantastic coincidence, every time the spike frequency
"merely went out of synch with the meter" it also went out of synch with
the other two instruments, and with various handheld meters they use from
time to time.

The chances of this happening are infinitesimally small. Jones describes
this as "only" and "merely" reinterpreting, but I think it calls for a
miracle.

My point is, you use redundant instruments of different types to eliminate
this kind of problem. Redundant instruments can never be exactly in synch,
with exactly the same characteristics, subject to the same artifacts.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 14:10:51 1999
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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Substitute Mercury for Tungsten? Heat Pipe Design
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:00:28 -0600
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To: Vortex

No Hg Vapors or H2 - D2 & O2  from this Heat Pipe Design. Easy Calorimetry
Too.
                                       |<-- Anode
                                  __ | __
                               O|    |     |O
                               O|    |     |O<---Calorimeter Coil
                               O|    |     |O
                                  |    |     |<--- SS or Iron Pipe
                                  |    |     |
                                  |-- |--  |
                                  |    |     |
                                  |    |     |<  H2O Pool
                                  |    |     |
                                  |    |     |<-- Pipe at Ground Potential
                                  |--  --  |
                                  |_____|<--- Hg Pool

Any Off-Steam or Hg Vapor  will condense up at the Calorimeter end of this
Heat Pipe, at about 1 deg K below the Water-Hg  Temperature (about 80 Deg
C). Any H2 or O2 along with any noncondensable species will be pushed to the
top where the H2 - O2 can be recombined and this heat measured also.

A gas sampling tube can be provided, too.

Regards,      Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 14:13:56 1999
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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 17:12:01 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Carbon helium source is useless speculation
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rt writes:

>We all know about osmotic membranes, and we know that H, D, and to a
>degree, He can migrate through metals.  We also know about thermocouples,
>which drive electrons preferentially in one direction at a junction between
>disimilar metals.

Yes, and you can separate isotopes with electrolysis, but that mechanism is
many orders of magnitude too small to explain, for example, the peculiar
isotopic distribution of the elements found in the Bockris bulk Pd cathode,
as Bockris himself showed. You would have to perform electrolysis 20,000
times.

My point is not that osmotic membranes and the like are uninteresting or
unworthy of investigation, but it isn't CF. I am saying, as Ed Storms did,
that if we were to investigate every possible "explanation" of this sort
that anyone, anywhere dreams up, we will never reach the point of actually
learning anything about CF. Furthermore, we can eliminate all of these
"interesting" ideas in one simple step: look for some other evidence for a
CF reaction, like heat, radioactivity or a large transmutation. If you find
it, voila, the question is settled and we no longer have to wonder about
osmotic membranes.

You only need to drag in the obscure, unlikely, and fantastic explanations
when the simple, direct, prosaic and obvious explanations fail. In this
case, the simplest and most prosaic explanation is that this is a cold
fusion reaction --  just like all the others that have been seen over the
years. Of course, if you do not believe CF exists, you will struggle to
think up something else, but you are in the same position as a 19th century
physicist would be if he tried to explain a conventional nuclear reaction
like natural radioactivity. You can come up with all kinds of elaborate,
convoluted, handwaving ideas, but none of them makes sense. In the end,
only one explaination fits.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 14:42:47 1999
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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 17:39:39 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
In-Reply-To: <v04011704b3944547bf19 [207.8.69.111]>
References: <3.0.1.32.19990621135011.00aa9358 mail.eden.com>
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Mitchell Jones writes:

	. . . In the original "Boiled Lightning" article in *Infinite
	Energy*, for example, I believe they started with 200 ml of
	electrolyte and wound up with 100 ml after about a run of a bit
	less than an hour. For example, suppose that they boiled off 100
	gms of water in a period of 50 minutes (3000 sec), from an
	electrolyte which had an average temperature of 70 deg C during
	the run. 

Yeah, I think Mizuno said he loses water at about the same rate. That is
why he limits the runs to 1000 seconds (16.6 minutes). When you lose a lot
of water, the electrolyte chemistry changes and the nature of the reaction
changes. A steady state will last for ~16 minutes. 1000 seconds is selected
to keep the arithmetic simple. Note that he may actually run for more than
16 minutes, but he computes the input/output ratio based on a 16 minute
segment from the middle of the run, during which a reasonably steady state
is obtained.


	Is it merely the fact that you are running with the electrolyte
	at a lower temperature, thereby encouraging the steam to
	immediately recondense, or is there something else that is
	contributing to recondensation?

This would certainly change the numbers. When Mizuno runs the cell in
isoperibolic mode, with no cooling water flow, the electrolyte gets hotter
and much more vapor is carried off.


	Also, why do you not simply weigh the electrolyte before and
	after a run, and compute steam loss by subtracting weight out
	from weight in, rather than trying to condense the effluent
	steam and measure the condensate?

In Mizuno's case, the electrolyte before and after and the condensate are
both weighed in order to estimate how much gas was lost. This is easier
than using a gas flowmeter or an external recombiner, and I expect it is
more accurate. (When water forms on an external recombiner, it is hot, and
much of it is lost as vapor, so you end up with a complicated combination
recombiner and condenser.) Remember that free H2 and O2 and other gases
carry off much more energy than water vapor.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 14:43:24 1999
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From: Ross Tessien <tessien oro.net>
Subject: Re: Carbon helium source is useless speculation
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At 05:12 PM 6/21/99 -0400, you wrote:
>rt writes:
>
>>We all know about osmotic membranes, and we know that H, D, and to a
>>degree, He can migrate through metals.  We also know about thermocouples,
>>which drive electrons preferentially in one direction at a junction between
>>disimilar metals.
>

>My point is not that osmotic membranes and the like are uninteresting or
>unworthy of investigation, but it isn't CF. I am saying, as Ed Storms did,
>that if we were to investigate every possible "explanation" of this sort
>that anyone, anywhere dreams up, we will never reach the point of actually
>learning anything about CF. Furthermore, we can eliminate all of these
>"interesting" ideas in one simple step: look for some other evidence for a
>CF reaction, like heat, radioactivity or a large transmutation. If you find
>it, voila, the question is settled and we no longer have to wonder about
>osmotic membranes.

I agree, if you can establish a robust, identified reaction mechanism and
product isotopes, then there you are, end of discussion.  But when the
"product" is He, something that occurs in nature, you have to be careful
that there isn't a way that it got into the system accidentally.  The
notion that exceeding the atmospheric concentration of He is "proof" of the
He having been formed inside is not very compelling when the fact is, there
are ways for He to move through the materials.  Just last week I was
reading up on H purifiers that drive H through metal membranes that other
atoms can't make it through.  So He ought to be able to leach out in
similar fashion, and it isn't that crazy to think that H would inhibit this
osmotic process differently than would D.  Their mean atomic velocities are
of ratio 2:1 due to the mass difference, and this will play an important
role in inhibiting He flow, if it exists.  

I much prefer the observations of neutrons and T from Claytor and Bockris
etc., and the observations of Wolf of beta active isotopes.  Those are
things that cannot be due to some natural (ie non nuclear) process such as
chemical reactions, leaching, etc.  The only other way to do it, is to get
the system to power a generator, because people are going to point fingers
claiming errors in measurement, until generators are powering real machinery.

rt


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 15:07:36 1999
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 18:00:31 EDT
Subject: Re: Analysis of PLEC & other Japanese data
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Ed,

I am reading the papers you sent earlier with great interest and I am very 
interested in the new Japanese data.  Thanks.

Bob Briggs

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 16:28:20 1999
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From: VCockeram aol.com
Message-ID: <2616f1b7.24a0240b aol.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 19:26:03 EDT
Subject: Re: H2K:  Best Fill Pressure?
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In a message dated 06/15/1999 14:56:23 Pacific Daylight Time, 
Tstolper aol.com writes:

> I think the reason that Mills runs his cells at low pressure is that the 
>  percentage of dissociated neutral H atoms, a species vital to the 
reaction, 
>  goes up as pressure goes down.
>  
>  Why are higher pressures easier to control?
>  
>  Tom Stolper
>

Because at fill pressures of ~500 torr a variation of +/- 5 torr is easy to 
hold
with my stone age vacuum system. At fill pressures of <10 torr it's not so
easy to keep a good steady fill pressure.  I don't have (wish I did) good
$$$ needle valves in the system. I can and do keep the fill pressure steady,
it's just harder to do.

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 16:28:28 1999
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 19:26:01 EDT
Subject: Re: PLEC: Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?
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In a message dated 06/19/1999 17:20:45 Pacific Daylight Time, 
fjsparber earthlink.net writes:

>  had a phone chat with Vince this afternoon. He is building a power supply
>  that should cause a power shortage in Vegas and just about empty Lake Mead
>  through that hydroelectric plant in a day or so.  :-)
>  
>  Regards,    Frederick
>
Actually Fred this is the same power supply I built last summer
using a 1.2 kV transformer, full wave diode rectifier and
2 x 12 MFD filter capacitors. All I did is modify the supply
to allow either a positive or negative grounded output.
I don't want to empty Lake Mead and ruin my fishing. :)

As Fred stated the piece of tungsten carbide rod I have is
free for the asking to anyone who wants to try Freds
mercury pool arc idea.  I wont experiment with mercury
as I feel it's too dangerous.

As far as the H2K experiment, I'm working trying to find
the best power supply and electrode combination that 
will work best. The carbon electrodes were ok with the AC
supply but power measurements were very difficult. Carbon
electrodes with DC make a mess in the tube. So I am
trying different combinations like carbon and W and so 
on.
It is getting to be too hot here for work to continue during
the summer. Over 100 F in the garage.
I have also been called for Federal jury duty starting next week.
Don't know how long that will last.

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas
   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 16:29:57 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Carbon helium source is useless speculation
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At 1:24 PM 6/21/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>This talk about helium secreting itself in carbon and being magically
>released by deuterium but not hydrogen is a bunch of guff. There are two
>outcomes to the SRI experiments:
>
>1. Excess heat accompanying the helium production will be confirmed, or
>some other nuclear effect, like exposure of an autoradiograph, will be
>observed.  This will sweep away all basis for speculating about magical
>helium nanotubes and what-have-you. One artifact cannot cause both helium
>and excess heat, or helium and radiation.

NO, but the speculation is that carbon can cause both FLASE indications of
helium production and FALSE indications of heat production, both effects
dependent upon the use of H2 vs D2 and the operating temperature.  The
basis for this speculation is Scott Little's experiments which showed cell
instabilities with D2 but not H2 in selected temperature ranges.  Further,
it is not needed for one artifact to account for both, since errors in Pin
are still a good possibility.  There is no evidence of radiation, is there?


>
>2. Excess heat will not be confirmed. The helium will be a puzzling anomaly
>which cannot be correlated with other evidence for cold fusion. The results
>will be inconclusive at best.
>
>For the record, I doubt that "carbon should act to selectively concentrate
>hydrogen and helium from the atmosphere." It sounds farfetched. If it is
>true, the phenomenon might have some commercial value,
[snip]


The ability of carbon nanotubes to hold large qauntities of hydrogen should
have enormous commercial application, in motor vehicles, for example.

I would also like to suggest that the Case cell is way out on the fringe of
things to be called CF devices, not clearly and strongly related to any of
the others, including Arata's.  I fit works great, if not, too bad, but
that should have no bearing on efforts in other unrelated CF areas, or vice
versa, at least not without extensive investigation.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 16:39:32 1999
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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:41:49 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: Carbon helium source is useless speculation
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At 4:47 PM 6/21/99, Ed Wall wrote:
[snip]
>"It is scientific only to say what's more likely and less likely and not to
>be proving all the time possible and impossible."
>Richard Feynman, 1964

It is already the status quo position that CF can't happen.  It is
therefore the general concensus that it is not only unlikely but closer to
the impossible.  Therefore at least some error causing artifact should be
considered likely in any experient that shows CF is real.  Hence Feynman's
statement provides a basis for Sagan's proposition, as applied to CF,
"extrordinary claims require extrordinary proof."

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 16:47:25 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: CF cause of Spontaneous Human Combustion?
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At 10:31 AM 6/21/99, Scudder, Henry J wrote:
>Horace
>        It has been suggested that humans would burn spontaneously if the
>oxygen content surrounding them is above 40% or so. Maybe this could be
>tested using a mouse or rat as a high school biology project. Put it in a
>bell jar, and crank up the oxygen content, and see what happens. I'm sure
>animal rights people would object, but I suspect your analysis is correct
>and nothing would happen to the mouse.


Gee Hank,

I recently spent 24 hours on oygen.  Glad I didn't go poof!  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 17:27:49 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 20:21:52 EDT
Subject: Re: Analysis of PLEC & other Japanese data
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Please send the URL.  (My computer is less than perfect with zip files.)

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 17:28:10 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 20:21:50 EDT
Subject: Claytor's Tritium Website?
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Tom,

Your tritweb site at Los Alamos seems to have been moved behind a firewall.  
(Firewall courtesy of Wen Ho Li?)   

Or has your tritium website just been moved to a new URL?

Tom Stolper

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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Subject: RE: Carbon helium source is useless speculation
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Jed:
> >My point is not that osmotic membranes and the like are uninteresting or
> >unworthy of investigation, but it isn't CF. I am saying, as Ed
> Storms did,
> >that if we were to investigate every possible "explanation" of this sort
> >that anyone, anywhere dreams up, we will never reach the point
> of actually
> >learning anything about CF. Furthermore, we can eliminate all of these
> >"interesting" ideas in one simple step: look for some other
> evidence for a
> >CF reaction, like heat, radioactivity or a large transmutation.
> If you find
> >it, voila, the question is settled and we no longer have to wonder about
> >osmotic membranes.
>
Ross Tessien:
> I agree, if you can establish a robust, identified reaction mechanism and
> product isotopes, then there you are, end of discussion.  But when the
> "product" is He, something that occurs in nature, you have to be careful
> that there isn't a way that it got into the system accidentally.  The
> notion that exceeding the atmospheric concentration of He is
> "proof" of the
> He having been formed inside is not very compelling when the fact
> is, there
> are ways for He to move through the materials.  Just last week I was
> reading up on H purifiers that drive H through metal membranes that other
> atoms can't make it through.  So He ought to be able to leach out in
> similar fashion, and it isn't that crazy to think that H would
> inhibit this
> osmotic process differently than would D.  Their mean atomic
> velocities are
> of ratio 2:1 due to the mass difference, and this will play an important
> role in inhibiting He flow, if it exists.
>
> I much prefer the observations of neutrons and T from Claytor and Bockris
> etc., and the observations of Wolf of beta active isotopes.  Those are
> things that cannot be due to some natural (ie non nuclear) process such as
> chemical reactions, leaching, etc.  The only other way to do it, is to get
> the system to power a generator, because people are going to point fingers
> claiming errors in measurement, until generators are powering
> real machinery.

Russ George, Mike McKubre and Mike Shaffer were emphatic in their public
statements recognizing this Case cell being insufficient 'proof' of CF.
McKubre said that you shouldn't believe on the strength of his words, though
he is predisposed to believe that fusion is taking place, due to reasonably
good correlation of heat production and helium which eventually appeared in
the cell.  They (and we) want more people to carry out replications. That
was the point of the APS Case cell talk.  Ed Storms says 'proof is in the
eye of the beholder,' a candid statement we should keep in mind when
conversing about the myriad of claims, some, like Claytor's, quite
compelling, and others, not so much.

Ross, can you explain how helium could concentrate in a stainless steel
container?  I agree that it can migrate through metal, though it does not
dissolve anywhere near as well as other gasses.  Can anyone explain
increasing concentration of helium, without nitrogen or oxygen?  Why would
the helium not move through the control cell wall?  I'm just asking.  I
don't know if stainless steel has such selective property.   It seems like
quite a stretch to me.  In the Abell et al. paper, brute force was used to
get helium into palladium (ion implantation and tritium decay).  Several
statements made it quite clear that helium does not dissolve in metals.

While high energy nuclear products do provide good evidence, electrolytic
experiments are quite possibly not the future of commercialized CF.  Rich
Murray reported that Russ George is now reporting a 60C delta-T with
deuterium.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

"It is scientific only to say what's more likely and less likely and not to
be proving all the time possible and impossible."
Richard Feynman, 1964

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 17:44:42 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Subject: RE: Carbon helium source is useless speculation
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Horace Heffner wrote:
>
> It is already the status quo position that CF can't happen.  It is
> therefore the general concensus that it is not only unlikely but closer to
> the impossible.  Therefore at least some error causing artifact should be
> considered likely in any experient that shows CF is real.  Hence Feynman's
> statement provides a basis for Sagan's proposition, as applied to CF,
> "extrordinary claims require extrordinary proof."
>
>
Feynman's thinking was not predicated on the majority or general consensus.
Remember, he titled his autobiography, *What Do You Care What Other People
Think?*  It is good to seek proof for the masses in the form of a Wal-Mart
CF home heater for $49.95, but proof to an individual investigator is a
product of his own thinking process.  If it wilts in the abusive treatment
of spf, that does not necessarily mean anything.  This is not a popularity
contest.  The Wal-Mart CF heater will never come about if investigators have
to have approval from the mainstream scientific community because of that
status quo position.

Feynman's death was so untimely.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

"It is scientific only to say what's more likely and less likely and not to
be proving all the time possible and impossible."
Richard Feynman, 1964

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 18:31:26 1999
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 21:28:04 EDT
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
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In a message dated 6/20/99 9:38:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, little eden.com 
writes:

<< I have concluded that there is likely something wrong with Mizuno's input
 power data.  I can't be positive but there is considerable evidence to
 support my hypothesis. >>


Scott,

Per our earlier conversation, I see an equal or greater possibility that 
there is some problem with Mizuno's output power data.  The input power (the 
forcing function) behaves in a reasonable, explainable way.  The output 
power, which is subjected to variations in input power and other system 
variables behaves in a most sedate manner which would not be the case in any 
linear mechanism.  

There is also the possibility that both measurements are ok but that some 
feedback loop internal to the cell (maybe steam providing electrical 
insulation to the cathode) is stabilizing the output power.  

Anyone else have thoughts?

Bob

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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 21:28:26 EDT
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
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In a message dated 6/20/99 9:38:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, little eden.com 
writes:

<< I have concluded that there is likely something wrong with Mizuno's input
 power data.  I can't be positive but there is considerable evidence to
 support my hypothesis. >>


Scott,

Per our earlier conversation, I see an equal or greater possibility that 
there is some problem with Mizuno's output power data.  The input power (the 
forcing function) behaves in a reasonable, explainable way.  The output 
power, which is subjected to variations in input power and other system 
variables behaves in a most sedate manner which would not be the case in any 
linear mechanism.  

There is also the possibility that both measurements are ok but that some 
feedback loop internal to the cell (maybe steam providing electrical 
insulation to the cathode) is stabilizing the output power.  

Anyone else have thoughts?

Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 21 20:07:48 1999
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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:54:30 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Clarification from Mizuno
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The data set Mizuno e-mailed to Scott Little was from 4/30/99. (I do not
have the Microsoft spreadsheet to read the data, but I can sorta display it
with Turbo Browser 98.) The configuration on that day was not quite the way
I described based on Figs. 1 & 2. The flow was turned on, as shown in the
data, but the external condenser and collector were disabled. The outlet
hose was pulled up fairly high so that much of the steam condensed in the
hose and dripped back in. This is done to reduce water losses from the cell
and maintain steady state chemistry over a long period. Only 10 or 20 grams
of water were lost during the run; the rest trickled back into the cell.

No effort was made to measure the heat radiating out of the hose and the
holder on top but Mizuno says they were "too hot to handle," to coin a
phrase. In other words, heat losses from the hose on that day were ignored.
After the electrolyte solution reached terminal temperature, logically I
suppose heat losses from the hose must have varied as input increased and
decreased but we have no direct record of that for this run. The water was
well mixed by the stirrer so the electrolyte terminal temperature was
uniformly ~75 deg C in most spots away from the cathode, as shown, even
though there was boiling in one spot. The cell temperature sensor is
positioned in the middle of the cell; the anode and cathode are above; the
stirrer is below.

The computer data from the Advantest R7326-B logger agreed to within 1%
with readings from a power meter. We did not discuss the scope readings.

- Jed

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 <3.0.5.32.19990620113648.00905830 mail.eden.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:53:42 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
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>Mitchell Jones writes:
>
>	Note that the spike frequency is presumed to be subject to
>	occasional changes which bring it out of tune with the meter.
>	All I am doing, in short, is reinterpreting the results a bit.
>	Where the CF proponents want to say that "the effect turned on,"
>	I am suggesting that the spike frequency merely began to match
>	the sampling frequency of the meter, and where the CF proponents
>	say the effect "turned off," I am suggesting that the spike
>	frequency merely went out of synch with the meter.
>
>The trouble with this hypothesis, as I pointed out earlier, is that Mizuno
>uses a meter, an oscilloscope, and an old pen recorder simultaneously, and
>the three instruments run at different rates, obviously. So you have to
>postulate that the spike frequency magically began to match two different
>instruments simultaneously

***{Unless I miss my guess, the "pen recorder" is an analog instrument. If
so, it has built-in inertial dampening, which prevents it from responding
to fast transients. Thus you are down to two instruments, the scope and the
meter. Without knowing the sampling rate and width of both the meter and
the scope, and also the type of data processing algorithm used by the
meter, there is no way to decide whether "magic" would have to be involved
or not. As I noted earlier, some digital meters of low onboard
"intelligence" can be fooled by random spikes. Thus even if no regular
spikes show on the scope, the Pin measurement could still be wrong.
Further, even if the meter is a sophisticated instrument with an onboard
microprocessor, which averages the readings across a large number of
samples, the scope would have to be *much faster than the meter* in order
to verify that a tuned-in artifact is not present. Bottom line: you need to
supply some facts about these instruments--i.e.,sampling rates, sample
widths, and processing algorithms--if you want to lay the spike hypothesis
to rest. Without such information, belief that Mizuno is "over unity" is
little more than a leap of faith; and even if such information is supplied
and found to be satisfactory, we still need independent replications such
as that being attempted by Scott Little. --Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Mizuno comments on input power
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Mizuno sent a message about the 4/30/99 data set to Scott Little. He copied
it to me, so I can correct the English to avoid confusion. Here is a
rewrite of the last paragraph, about the input power metering.

"I agree with your observation that the input fluctuated. This was because
I measured the current during a sampling time of a few miliseconds with the
data logger (Advantest R7326-B). I gathered many data points and calculated
an average value every 60 seconds. I checked this against a digital power
meter (Advantest WT130), and I determined that the computer log and the
power meter were within 0.99+-0.07 on average. The values show good
coincidence and there are no major discrepancies over reasonably long
segments of the data, although individual instantaneous readings vary
considerably."

- JR

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Carbon helium source is useless speculation
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Ross Tessien writes:

>>CF reaction, like heat, radioactivity or a large transmutation. If you find
>>it, voila, the question is settled and we no longer have to wonder about
>>osmotic membranes.
>
>I agree, if you can establish a robust, identified reaction mechanism and
>product isotopes, then there you are, end of discussion.

Spoken like a true scientist! Nope. You do not have to identify the
reaction mechanism. Just as long as you can be sure 1. The heat was real
(and not an artifact caused by warm gas collecting around the sensor or
what-have-you), and  2. No chemical fuel was consumed -- you are home free.
It is CF!


>I much prefer the observations of neutrons and T from Claytor and Bockris
>etc., and the observations of Wolf of beta active isotopes.  Those are
>things that cannot be due to some natural (ie non nuclear) process such as
>chemical reactions, leaching, etc.

Yeah, scientists much prefer that stuff, but Mother Nature does not. She
does not give us many short-lived isotopes or neutrons. You should learn to
love what she *does* provide, and stop pining for hot fusion products.
Regarding chemical reactions: FORGET IT. That dog won't hunt. There are
none. It is out of the question. If there has been one thing established
beyond any doubt in CF, it is this chemical reactions are ruled out.

Of course that means if you open a Case cell, and you find chemical ash, it
wasn't doing CF. That does not mean that chemistry never happens.


. . . the fact is, there
>are ways for He to move through the materials.  Just last week I was
>reading up on H purifiers that drive H through metal membranes that other
>atoms can't make it through.

Uh . . . there is nothing outside this cell. Are you seriously suggesting
that something inside the cell could *suck helium in*. I can imagine
selectively driving gas through metal leaving some behind, but to suggest
that another process can reach through the metal, gather up He atoms only,
and drag them in seems like a gigantic stretch. You would have to hire a
team of Maxwell's demons and retrain them. You could probably get a Labor
Department grant for that.


Horace Heffner writes:

>NO, but the speculation is that carbon can cause both FLASE indications of
>helium production and FALSE indications of heat production,

What?!? Carbon has amazing powers! I don't buy that for a minute.
Obviously, different calorimetric methods must be used, just as different,
independent helium detectors have been employed (include blind and double
blind offsite verification).


>I would also like to suggest that the Case cell is way out on the fringe of
>things to be called CF devices, not clearly and strongly related to any of
>the others, including Arata's.

I disagree. It seems pretty close the mainstream stuff. A lot closer than
the Ni light water claims or W glow discharge.


>Hence Feynman's
>statement provides a basis for Sagan's proposition, as applied to CF,
>"extrordinary claims require extrordinary proof."

This is stupidist notion to invade science in the last 30 years. It is
dreadful! No, Dr. Sagan, we want nothing extraordiary, or even out of the
ordinary. We want *ordinary*, garden variety proof, the kind that you would
accept in a demonstration the conservation of energy in a junior high
school science lab. "Extraordinary" is in the mind of the beholder; it is a
value judgement. Whereas ordinary, standard, off-the-shelf, tried-and-true
calorimetry and autoradiographs are described in every textbook, and we
should all agree they work. If you not convinced by these ordinary tools of
science, you are not playing fair. If 90 sigma results with
ultra-conventional, conservative instruments at straightlaced labs do not
convince you, nothing will. Extraordinary results call for extraordinary
methods and one-of-a-kind instruments which makes them inherantly less
believable. What is the least believable, least reliable, totally
unreplicatable, and most extraordinary physical science result of the
decade? The top quark, of course. I would bet that 10 top physicists would
express at least 50 opinions between them about these results.

- Jed

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Mitchell Jones writes:

>***{Unless I miss my guess, the "pen recorder" is an analog instrument. If
>so, it has built-in inertial dampening, which prevents it from responding
>to fast transients.

He does have an old pen recorder but in this case he relied mainly on the
data logger versus the power meter. I know little about this subject, but
as far as I know, with randomly occuring spike the analog instrument will
settle at an average value reflecting average power, spikes and all. It
will not shoot off the page when a spike occurs, but it will not ignore it,
either. It can't; it is on-line all the time. As far as I know, the problem
with instruments not detecting spikes only occurs with digital instruments
which are "not listening" (as it were) during short periods.


>Without knowing the sampling rate and width of both the meter and
>the scope, and also the type of data processing algorithm used by the
>meter . . .

It would be a miracle if the data processing algorithm and data collection
rates of the two different instruments conspired together to reach the same
results, within one percent, in experiment after experiment. If you think
this same miracle could be extended to other instruments and scopes, you
and I come from different planets.

I don't even have to know the algorithms to know that whatever errors,
biases, and gaps they introduces, they cannot be *the same for all
instruments*!


>Further, even if the meter is a sophisticated instrument with an onboard
>microprocessor, which averages the readings across a large number of
>samples, the scope would have to be *much faster than the meter* in order
>to verify that a tuned-in artifact is not present.

O-scopes are always much faster than meters. I have never heard of one that
wasn't. You see only a fraction of a second of data, but it is all there,
in detail. That's the point. Dedicated power meters are faster than general
purpose data loggers too.


>Bottom line: you need to
>supply some facts about these instruments--i.e.,sampling rates, sample
>widths, and processing algorithms . . .

Look 'em up on the Internet. I gave the manufacturer's home pages. But
seriously, there is no way they could all be suffering from the same
problems so they all come up with the same wrong answer.

- Jed

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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:42:04 -0600
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Subject: Murray: C He source: other molecular sieves 6.21.99
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June 21, 1999  Hello,  McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science and
Technology, 1997, gives surprisingly detailed information:

8-426 "Helium": Ne is removed from He by fresh activated carbon at 
-77 deg C. [This shows that Ac-C can adsorb a noble gas.]  He is then
purified to <= 50 ppm by Ac-C at -202 deg C at 200 atm pressure.
There exists, at 0 deg C, a clatharate hydrate [He(H2O)6. [This gives
at least one molecular trap that holds He.] 

Ac-C needs to hold only one atom of He for every ten million atoms
of C to provide the .33 ug He found by Russ George in 10 gr of catalyst,
0.5 gm/cc density, in the 50cc Case cell, at 3.4 atm D2 at 200-210
deg C for four weeks. The catalyst holds many impurities, and more
must come with the air, H2, and D2, so there are many opportunities
for complex chemistry at special sites on the Ac-C to bind He, the
smallest of atoms.  Previous research could easily have missed this
low level of adsorption.

Convincing evidence of heat production by the Case cell has not
been yet given.

WebElements: The periodic table on the WWW
http://www.shef.ac.uk/chemistry/web-elements/

Here are some atomic radii:
coalent radius, picometers (E-12) 
He 32  H 37  C 77  N 75  O 73  F 71  Ne 69

calculated atomic radius:
He 31  H 53  C 67  N 56  O 48  F 42  Ne 38

It is reasonable to conjecture that Ac-C offers spaces just the
right fit to adsorb He, and only He.  This can be tested by burning
the catalyst in pure O2, and looking for He.

1-111: "Activated Carbon":  1.2-20 nm pores, 500-1500 m2/gm.
The pores are developed by selective oxidation of the base
structure, often carbonized coconut shell, with steam, CO2, flue
gas, and air. [Many of these trace gases will operate in the Case
cell, eroding the inner surfaces of the Ac-C, gradually freeing
any adsorbed He, perhaps more vigorously with D2 than with H2.]

4-396: Zeolites, dried crystalline metal aluminosilicates:
100 gm can hold H20 29 gm, NH3 20, C3H6 13.

19-697: K-A zeolite with 0.3 nm pores can adsorb H2O and NH3 from
air.

9-339 "Intermolecular Forces": Like most atoms, Ar interacts with Ar:
1.0 nm center-to-center distance = 0 force
 .8 to .4 attraction
 .38 balance = 0 force
<.3  repulsion

At boiling, - 186 deg C, Ar gas is 98% Ar atoms and 2% Ar2
"van der Waals" molecules.

Subject: Re: Carbon helium source is useless speculation
 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:28:24 -0700
 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
        Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:31:55 -0800
        From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
    Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
          To: vortex-l eskimo.com

At 1:24 PM 6/21/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>This talk about helium secreting itself in carbon and being magically
>released by deuterium but not hydrogen is a bunch of guff. There are
>two outcomes to the SRI experiments:
>
>1. Excess heat accompanying the helium production will be confirmed, or
>some other nuclear effect, like exposure of an autoradiograph, will be
>observed.  This will sweep away all basis for speculating about magical
>helium nanotubes and what-have-you. One artifact cannot cause both
>helium and excess heat, or helium and radiation.

NO, but the speculation is that carbon can cause both FLASE indications
of helium production and FALSE indications of heat production, both
effects dependent upon the use of H2 vs D2 and the operating
temperature.  The basis for this speculation is Scott Little's
experiments, which showed cell instabilities with D2 but not H2 in
selected temperature ranges.  Further, it is not needed for one
artifact to account for both, since errors in Pin are still a good
possibility.  There is no evidence of radiation, is there?
>
>2. Excess heat will not be confirmed. The helium will be a puzzling
>anomaly which cannot be correlated with other evidence for cold
>fusion. The results will be inconclusive at best.
>
>For the record, I doubt that "carbon should act to selectively
>concentrate hydrogen and helium from the atmosphere." It sounds
>farfetched. If it is true, the phenomenon might have some commercial
>value,
[snip]

The ability of carbon nanotubes to hold large qauntities of hydrogen
should have enormous commercial application, in motor vehicles, for
example.

I would also like to suggest that the Case cell is way out on the
fringe of things to be called CF devices, not clearly and strongly
related to any of the others, including Arata's.  If it works, great,
if not, too bad, but that should have no bearing on efforts in other
unrelated CF areas, or vice versa, at least not without extensive
investigation.

Regards,  Horace Heffner          

And regards, Rich Murray  Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103  505-920-6130
rmforall earthlink.net

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Clarification from Mizuno
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[snip]

>
>The computer data from the Advantest R7326-B logger agreed to within 1%
>with readings from a power meter.

***{Is the Advantest R7326-B logger the same as the "old pen recorder" to
which you referred in your earlier post? If so, and if the Pin trace which
it produces matches Mizuno's meter within 1%, then it seems highly likely
that his meter is missing spikes. As I mentioned earlier, old fashioned pen
recorders are mechanical instruments and, as such, are afflicted with a
form of dampening that results from the inertia of their moving parts and
renders them incapable of responding to very fast transients. Thus if a
computer samples a data stream that measures the position of the needle of
an old fashioned pen recorder, then very fast spikes are guaranteed to be
lost from the computer input. Result: any computation based on such a data
stream, however sophisticated the algorithm may be, is going to
undermeasure input power, if spikes are in fact present. --Mitchell
Jones}***

We did not discuss the scope readings.
>
>- Jed

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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Calorimetry buffs
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A good example of obeying the experimentalist's rule: "Know thy apparatus."

You've got your system working now. That said, I am surprised that you used
a "bang-bang" feedback (full-on/full/off) instead of a smooth feedback
function. 

I used purely analog feedback when I was doing experiments. It worked well.
The analog choice probably represents my geneation...I understand analog
feedback control pretty well. In principle, digital control is more
powerful, but I think one needs to keep the quantization errors small,
including the effector response, to not throw away the digital advantage.
===
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Data
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What makes me most suspicious that there is a problem in Mizuno's data is
that his apparent excess heat turns on right away, as soon as the
electrical power comes on. Of course, this might be exactly what is
happening. 

(However, the one time I thought I had gotten excess power was also a run
wherein the excess power came on and off immediately with the electrolysis
power. In my case the cause of that behavior was power supply noise (due to
an undocumented power supply operating "feature") getting into the
thermocouple signal circuits, which were inadequately shielded at the time.
Once burned, twice shy (or something to that effect).)
===
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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>Because at fill pressures of ~500 torr a variation of +/- 5 torr is easy to 
>hold
>with my stone age vacuum system. At fill pressures of <10 torr it's not so
>easy to keep a good steady fill pressure.  I don't have (wish I did) good
>$$$ needle valves in the system. I can and do keep the fill pressure steady,
>it's just harder to do.

I'm going to be visiting Seattle in a couple of weeks, and no doubt will
visit some friends in the boat yards.  I'll see if I can scrounge a manual
expansion valve from someone.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 00:58:53 -0500
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Subject: PLEC: News from Mizuno
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Mizuno writes about the other Japanese lab that has replicated his result:

>I went to Knsai Research Institue (KRI) in Kyoto last
>monday. They use actually a 4 l of dewar cell and measureing the temperature
>of the solution. The sample were sent by myself of the same as you, 1cm and
>5mm of rectanguler shape. and the solution is 0.2 mol of K2CO3. Input
>voltage was 105 V at the first and then increased up to 120 V at 2 min
>later. Cell temperature was 60C at the beginning and rose up 66 C at 2
>min,after 20min the temperature rose 86 C, the total input was estimated
>226kJ, meanwhile the cell entalpy can be estimated as 329kJ. This value was
>obtained by the simple calculation as 3089g*4.184*(86.1-60.6). And other
>factors such as heat release from the dewar and gas evolution were estimated
>as 11.8kJ and 7.6kJ;so you can obtained the out/inp ratio as 1.54 for the
>average. And the highest value of Out/Inp was obtained as 2.81 and lowest
>was 1.06 at the end of reaction.
> I think the method was so simple and not so high temperature. I am
>surprising that was so high excess heat generation, do you have any idea how
>we can obtain such value?

He's asking ME how to make the excess heat bigger!  

Anyway, the KRI experiment sounds encouraging to me.  I like the idea of a
substantially different experiment showing a big excess heat result.

Regarding the fluctuating input power issue, Jed already posted a nice
rework of what Mizuno said about that.  BTW, I think he meant Yokogawa
power meter...not Advantest.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

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Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 23:10:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Analysis of PLEC & other Japanese data
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Mitchell,

>    We will be putting up a draft manuscript involving
> Analysis of PLEC & other Japanese CF data for
> comments from vorts [and other interested parties]
> regarding a paper describing an analysis of the
> PLEC and other Japanese data.  

I am interested. I prefer the URL, because this Yahoo mail is 
really clumsy with files.
===
Michael J. Schaffer


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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
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At 03:50 PM 6/21/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>***{My understanding of your setup may be flawed, but I have been assuming
>that the "flow calorimeter" portion of your setup is external to the cell
>itself, and that the cell is just a beaker full of electrolyte with the
>necessary electrodes and instrumentation.

that is correct.  Details of the thermal coupling can be viewed at:

http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/detail.html

>If so, it strikes me as highly
>implausible that such a cell could operate for more than an hour without
>boiling off a significant portion of the electrolyte.

Well, it really happens.  The electrolyte is well-stirred and its
temperature is maintained below the boiling point.  Bubbles of steam
produced at the cathode have to travel up through below-boiling liquid
before they reach the surface.  The majority of them condense violently on
the way up creating the impressive rumbling sound the cell makes.  If
you've never blown steam through a hose submerged in water you simply must
experience it to believe the sound it makes.

>Is it merely the fact that you are running with the electrolyte at a lower
>temperature, thereby encouraging the steam to immediately recondense...

Bingo.

>Also, why do
>you not simply weigh the electrolyte before and after a run...

That would work...it just seemed cleaner to condense the water out of the
escaping gas stream.  We're talking about less than a gram.

>{Unless I miss my guess, the "pen recorder" is an analog instrument. If
>so, it has built-in inertial dampening, which prevents it from responding
>to fast transients. Thus you are down to two instruments....

Jed's right.  It is GOOD that the analog meter has damping and smoothing.
It means that the displayed result will be a good AVERAGE value for the
current, which is exactly what is required to get an accurate Pin
measurement in this constant-voltage situation.

>***{Is the Advantest R7326-B logger the same as the "old pen recorder" to
>which you referred in your earlier post?...

No, the Advantest is a modern digital data logger.  You can read about its
specs on their web site.

>As I mentioned earlier, old fashioned pen
>recorders are mechanical instruments and, as such, are afflicted with a
>form of dampening that results from the inertia of their moving parts and
>renders them incapable of responding to very fast transients. Thus if a
>computer samples a data stream that measures the position of the needle of
>an old fashioned pen recorder, then very fast spikes are guaranteed to be
>lost from the computer input.

Not lost.  Averaged...which is exactly what we want in this case.

>Result: any computation based on such a data
>stream, however sophisticated the algorithm may be, is going to
>undermeasure input power, if spikes are in fact present.

Your hypothesis is simply incorrect.  When the voltage is constant, you
need to multiply it by the AVERAGE current, spikes and all.  A metering
device that automatically averages the current, such as an old fasioned
d'Arsenval movement (i.e. older pen recorders, analog meters, etc.) is a
good way to achieve that averaging.

I'm not going to let you cover up Mizuno's excess heat with this spike
hypothesis, Mitchell.  That dog just won't hunt.  Look, I'm almost as
suspicious as you are about Mizuno's input power measurement but we're
going to have to come up with some other hypothesis for the error, OK?


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

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At 11:54 PM 6/21/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Ross Tessien writes:
>
>>>CF reaction, like heat, radioactivity or a large transmutation. If you find
>>>it, voila, the question is settled and we no longer have to wonder about
>>>osmotic membranes.
>>
>>I agree, if you can establish a robust, identified reaction mechanism and
>>product isotopes, then there you are, end of discussion.
>
>Spoken like a true scientist! Nope. You do not have to identify the
>reaction mechanism. Just as long as you can be sure 1. The heat was real
>(and not an artifact caused by warm gas collecting around the sensor or
>what-have-you), and  2. No chemical fuel was consumed -- you are home free.
>It is CF!

Sure, but the discussion will continue.  When you understand what is going
on, then, and only then, will the discussion end, as I said.

As for using heat as the proof (a different thing from a discussion ender),
you need enough heat to be beyond question.  I tend to agree with Gene on
that one, it will take until someone builds a saleable power generator to
settle the debate if the debate is to be settled without an understanding
of the mechanisms.


>>I much prefer the observations of neutrons and T from Claytor and Bockris
>>etc., and the observations of Wolf of beta active isotopes.  Those are
>>things that cannot be due to some natural (ie non nuclear) process such as
>>chemical reactions, leaching, etc.
>
>Yeah, scientists much prefer that stuff, but Mother Nature does not. 

But, Mother nature DOES give us some.  If any single experiment is valid
(and I assume that many of them are) then that proves that there is
something nuclear going on, end of nuclear debate.   In other words, each
and every report of neutrons, tritium, and beta isotopes must be assumed to
be invalid in order that one assume that no nuclear process is involved.  I
can't swallow that level of belief.  The only answer, IMO, is fraud, and I
can't believe that fraud is involved when you have so many independent
people reporting neutrons and tritium and beta.  That notion is silly.
There is something nuclear going on, IMO, in several of the CF experiments.
 This doesn't mean that I swallow every report, however, and the Case
experiment is one I haven't yet accepted as "nuclear evidence".

>
>. . . the fact is, there
>>are ways for He to move through the materials.  Just last week I was
>>reading up on H purifiers that drive H through metal membranes that other
>>atoms can't make it through.
>
>Uh . . . there is nothing outside this cell. Are you seriously suggesting
>that something inside the cell could *suck helium in*. I can imagine
>selectively driving gas through metal leaving some behind, but to suggest
>that another process can reach through the metal, gather up He atoms only,
>and drag them in seems like a gigantic stretch. You would have to hire a
>team of Maxwell's demons and retrain them. You could probably get a Labor
>Department grant for that.

Get an osmotic membrane, and put salt water on one side, and regular water
on the other.  You will find that the plain water moves through the
membrane, preferentially.  Now, pretend that the atmosphere on the outside
of a metal cannister is the salt water (normal atmosphere), and that the
gases on the inside are the other side of the osmotic membrane (the
interior gases), and that the metal vessel is the osmotic membrane.  Then,
yes, it is reasonable that He moves through that membrane preferentially in
one direction.  No, it isn't **sucked in**, it is blown in by the exterior
pressure and by the He atoms ease at moving through metals.

I am not saying this is what is happening.  I am saying that this is
something to consider.  We should not close our eyes to considering that
some of our experiments are incorrect, any more than we should accept that
main stream has closed their eyes to experiments that are clearly driving
nuclear reactions of some sort.  We have plenty of good evidence in the
small amounts of nuclear products to establish that nuclear processes of
some sort  are at work.  There is no need to risk the excellent results
credibility by accepting He production in some device as a new benchmark if
we have not ruled out all conceivable ways to end up with helium in the
devices.  

I have long been bothered by this potential path to He concentration
enhancement in both the Case cells and in E-Quest type devices.  I am not
saying that I think this is so.  I am saying that I have read no report
that allows me to rule this possibility out.

No one should rule out contamination until we can think of no contamination
paths because if we stand firmly behind some experiment and then it is
overturned, the rest of the excellent proof will be thrown out along with
the one incorrect experiment.

rt



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 00:36:39 1999
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Mike,
Would you be able to scan the info in and send to me direct?
Remi.

On Sun, 20 Jun 1999, Michael T Huffman wrote:
> I read your paper last night on Hartman's website.  Have you looked at
> Gadolinium?  I saw a story in The Home Shop Machinist magazine about a young
> woman who invented a heat engine, using this, and she won a state science
> fair or something.  Intel Corporation was all over her the next day.  This
> magazine is not on the web, but I can get you the address if you want.
> 
> Knuke
> 
> 
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 02:06:07 1999
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These are the folks working with Randall "Hydrino"  Mills. 

 http://www.thermacore.com/techno.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 02:57:56 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
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Hi Remi,

I've looked all over for that thing, and can't find it right now.  I did
find all the other copies of the mag, and saw in the address section that
they had a website on AOL, but it was not there anymore so I searched around
a bunch of metalworking sites until I found it. It's still under
construction, so I'll write to the editor, and see if she remembers the
exact issue that the article was in.  I'll probably find it here in a day or
two and just type it in. It was one of those news brief type of articles.
If you want to look at the new Home Shop Machinist site, the address is below.

http://www.villagepress.com/homeshop/

Knuke



Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 03:09:35 1999
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Cheers mate!
Remi.

On Tue, 22 Jun 1999, Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Hi Remi,
> 
> I've looked all over for that thing, and can't find it right now.  I did
> find all the other copies of the mag, and saw in the address section that
> they had a website on AOL, but it was not there anymore so I searched around
> a bunch of metalworking sites until I found it. It's still under
> construction, so I'll write to the editor, and see if she remembers the
> exact issue that the article was in.  I'll probably find it here in a day or
> two and just type it in. It was one of those news brief type of articles.
> If you want to look at the new Home Shop Machinist site, the address is below.
> 
> http://www.villagepress.com/homeshop/
> 
> Knuke
> 
> 
> 
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 03:48:31 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Carbon helium source is useless speculation
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At 11:54 PM 6/21/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:

[snip]
>>Hence Feynman's
>>statement provides a basis for Sagan's proposition, as applied to CF,
>>"extrordinary claims require extrordinary proof."
>
>This is stupidist notion to invade science in the last 30 years. It is
>dreadful!
[snip]

I figured that would rile you, as usual!  Science by aphorism *is*
terrible, isn't it?

Personally, I'd nominate misapplying Feynman's "It is scientific only to
say what's more likely and less likely and not to be proving all the time
possible and impossible." so as to excuse doing sloppy science and science
by personal opinion.

Like it or not, science is a social phenomenon.  Individuals can do
research and theory, and form opinions, but science takes more than an
individual effort.

You can stick your head in the sand about the possibility that the carbon
catalyst might be capable of holding large amounts of helium extracted from
atmospheric contamination, but sooner or later someone will check it out.
It is already known from Little's experiments that H2 and D2 have
convection instabilities at differing temperatures in the Case cell, and
that these instabilities can influence some forms of calorimetry.  It is
reasonable that these instabilities might also affect the rate of helium
scrubbing as well.

There I go committing another sin of science.  Repetition doesn't make it so!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 04:36:52 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: PLEC: News from Mizuno
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At 12:58 AM 6/22/99, Scott Little wrote:
>Mizuno writes about the other Japanese lab that has replicated his result:
[snip]
>> I think the method was so simple and not so high temperature. I am
>>surprising that was so high excess heat generation, do you have any idea how
>>we can obtain such value?
>
>He's asking ME how to make the excess heat bigger!

It sounds to me like he is asking if you have any idea what kind of
artifacts can give this result, i.e. if you have any explanation for the
results.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 05:17:45 1999
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From: David Jonsson <David Bahnhof.se>
Subject: Re: Depleted Uranium
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At 18:50 1999-06-18 -0500, you wrote:

>Horace Heffner wrote:

>> Also notable is that a uranium ceramic would have less density and thus be

>> less effective than pure metal in a projectile.

>

>This may be true in fact, but it is at least possibly not true.  Protons and

>neutrons are roughly the same size in the nucleus, so the heavier elemental

>nucleuses are only a small portion of the atomic volume -- it is the

>electron cloud that really increases in volume.


The ceramic has 92% of the bulk density of Uranium according to Aviation Week & Space Technology, March 9 1992 , pp. 66-67. If someone gets this article please fax it to me. I have a US-faxnumber. Or scan and email.


David 




David Jonsson  Phone +46-8-740 02 81         US Fax +1 (305)
<bigger>946-7851

</bigger>Stockholm      Mobile GSM +46-706-339487     E-mail
David Bahnhof.se

Sweden         http://www.bahnhof.se/~david  Postgiro 499 40 54-7

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 05:18:30 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Subject: RE: Murray: C He source: other molecular sieves 6.21.99
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 08:17:44 -0400
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Rich,

Good information, but of questionable practicality if such absorption
effects do not come into play near room temperature.

Just as a reminder, experimental protocol requires purging the catalyst with
protium several times.  Russ George also purged with deuterium, if memory
serves.

> It is reasonable to conjecture that Ac-C offers spaces just the
> right fit to adsorb He, and only He.  This can be tested by burning
> the catalyst in pure O2, and looking for He.

Yes, and perhaps McKubre will take this step.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

"It is scientific only to say what's more likely and less likely and not to
be proving all the time possible and impossible."
Richard Feynman, 1964


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 05:29:24 1999
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Vo:

In all this endless speculation about carbon absorbing He and producing
false "CF" signatures in the Case cell, something quite significant is
forgotten: the A&Z experiments.

What is in common between these two is the presence of highly fractured
surfaces of Pd, the production of excess heat, and the production of 4He.
What is not in common is the presence of carbon. There is a
divide-and-conquer tactic used by the CF critics, in which each separate
experiment must be examined in isolation and found impeccable before any
admission of a new phenomenon can be made. Thus endless quibbles about the
poor writing and incomplete tutorials in the A&Z papers can deflect
attention from the robust heat and He signatures, and speculations about
carbon absorption can deflect attention from the correlation of heat and He
production found by McKubre.

The essential feature of the Case and A&Z experiments is the highly
fractured surface of Pd, which gives ample opportunities for the
as-yet-unspecified conditions necessary for the reaction to occur. In the
first instance it is in the distribution of a thin film of Pd over the large
surface area of the carbonized carrier. In the second instance it is in
colloidal Pd with particles 40 nanometers -- a few hundred atoms -- across.

These experiments, with similar end products but vastly different procedures
and other features, are mutually supportive indications of a new phenomenon.
The divide-and-conquer tactic would treat wood fire and coal fire as
entirely separate phenomena, refusing to recognize a common process.

Mike Carrell

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Horace wrote:
>Personally, I'd nominate misapplying Feynman's "It is scientific only to
>say what's more likely and less likely and not to be proving all the time
>possible and impossible." so as to excuse doing sloppy science and science
>by personal opinion.

In a chaotic situation where there are a large number of possible reaction
pathways, and mechanisms involved, probability math rules.  There will be
the most probable outcome for a given test run, and outcomes that are less
probable will be considered anomolous.  I think that this is what Feynman
may have meant.  Almost every scientific endeavor will initially be
described by a mathmatic that is later found to be overly simplistic, and
nearly every law will appear to be broken at one time or another until the
subtle factors at play are investigated and understood.  It's not really
sloppy science so much as it is science with a goal in mind.  In many
circumstances a reliablity factor of 50% or higher is considered to be good
enough for some phenomena.  It may be cheaper in these circumstances to do
things twice if they don't work the first time, than it is to find out
exactly what causes things to go wrong, and fix the problem.  Transmitting
data over the telephone lines is one example.  If we waited for the
telephone company to track down, understand, and fix every little line
problem between me and you, for example, before we did any modem work, we'd
be waiting until Elvis returned :-)

Well, it's one for the money
Two for the show
Three to get ready
Now go cat go
So don't you
Step on my blue suede shoes
You can do what you like
But stay off of my blue suede shoes

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 05:57:05 1999
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At 08:27 AM 6/22/99 -0400, Mike Carrell wrote:
>Vo:
>
>In all this endless speculation about carbon absorbing He and producing
>false "CF" signatures in the Case cell, something quite significant is
>forgotten: the A&Z experiments.
>
>What is in common between these two is the presence of highly fractured
>surfaces of Pd, the production of excess heat, and the production of 4He.
>What is not in common is the presence of carbon. There is a
>divide-and-conquer tactic used by the CF critics, in which each separate
>experiment must be examined in isolation and found impeccable before any
>admission of a new phenomenon can be made. Thus endless quibbles about the
>poor writing and incomplete tutorials in the A&Z papers can deflect
>attention from the robust heat and He signatures, and speculations about
>carbon absorption can deflect attention from the correlation of heat and He
>production found by McKubre.
>
>The essential feature of the Case and A&Z experiments is the highly
>fractured surface of Pd, which gives ample opportunities for the
>as-yet-unspecified conditions necessary for the reaction to occur. In the
>first instance it is in the distribution of a thin film of Pd over the large
>surface area of the carbonized carrier. In the second instance it is in
>colloidal Pd with particles 40 nanometers -- a few hundred atoms -- across.
>
>These experiments, with similar end products but vastly different procedures
>and other features, are mutually supportive indications of a new phenomenon.
>The divide-and-conquer tactic would treat wood fire and coal fire as
>entirely separate phenomena, refusing to recognize a common process.
>
>Mike Carrell


   Good points.  

   Given the flushing proceedures, and the info supplied by Rich Murray,
the helium binding is unlikely.
 
   Helium clathrates are seen only at low temps.

   Helium does not relatively bind to charcoal, and thus it has
been used to separate other inert gases from He.
   "Helium": Ne is removed from He by fresh activated carbon at 
    -77 deg C. He is then purified to <= 50 ppm by Ac-C at -202 
    deg C at 200 atm pressure." (per Murray)

   Given the above, and the flushing, and the kinetics observed,
the purported 'helium binding', like the purported helium contamination, 
seems to be another red herring that -- in the absence of evidence
from the critics based upon substantive data -- has been now laid to rest.

    Mitchell Swartz



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 06:03:45 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Case & Arata
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:02:29 -0400
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Mike,

Excellent point.

Thanks for the reminder of how easy it is to get too narrowly focused.

The glaring fact that Murray seems utterly blind to is that, paraphrasing
McKubre, even if there is only a remote chance these reactions are nuclear,
they absolutely must be investigated, as a highest priority.  Murray,
Morrison, Park etc. take the attitude that they are protecting the world
from schlock science, when what they are effectively doing is obscuring the
real strength of the case to be made for CF, thus, in all likelihood, trying
to deny the world a desperately needed resource: clean, cheap energy.  This
means subjecting multitudes to vastly inferior lifestyles.

Ed

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Carrell [mailto:mikec snip.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 1999 8:28 AM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Case & Arata
>
>
> Vo:
>
> In all this endless speculation about carbon absorbing He and producing
> false "CF" signatures in the Case cell, something quite significant is
> forgotten: the A&Z experiments.
>
> What is in common between these two is the presence of highly fractured
> surfaces of Pd, the production of excess heat, and the production of 4He.
> What is not in common is the presence of carbon. There is a
> divide-and-conquer tactic used by the CF critics, in which each separate
> experiment must be examined in isolation and found impeccable before any
> admission of a new phenomenon can be made. Thus endless quibbles about the
> poor writing and incomplete tutorials in the A&Z papers can deflect
> attention from the robust heat and He signatures, and speculations about
> carbon absorption can deflect attention from the correlation of
> heat and He
> production found by McKubre.
>
> The essential feature of the Case and A&Z experiments is the highly
> fractured surface of Pd, which gives ample opportunities for the
> as-yet-unspecified conditions necessary for the reaction to occur. In the
> first instance it is in the distribution of a thin film of Pd
> over the large
> surface area of the carbonized carrier. In the second instance it is in
> colloidal Pd with particles 40 nanometers -- a few hundred atoms
> -- across.
>
> These experiments, with similar end products but vastly different
> procedures
> and other features, are mutually supportive indications of a new
> phenomenon.
> The divide-and-conquer tactic would treat wood fire and coal fire as
> entirely separate phenomena, refusing to recognize a common process.
>
> Mike Carrell
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 06:15:58 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Horace,

You wrote:
> Science by aphorism *is* terrible, isn't it?
>
If you mean that generalizations aren't worth much, that argument is well
known, and has validity, but communication wouldn't happen if we could not
use generalizations.

> Personally, I'd nominate misapplying Feynman's "It is scientific only to
> say what's more likely and less likely and not to be proving all the time
> possible and impossible." so as to excuse doing sloppy science and science
> by personal opinion.

Note, he said *all the time*. IOW, he differentiates science from
mathematics in that scientific activity generally takes place in a realm of
uncertainty.
>
> Like it or not, science is a social phenomenon.  Individuals can do
> research and theory, and form opinions, but science takes more than an
> individual effort.

Individual effort is the sina qua non of science, and all human progress.
Indeed, of human essence.
>
> You can stick your head in the sand about the possibility that the carbon
> catalyst might be capable of holding large amounts of helium
> extracted from
> atmospheric contamination, but sooner or later someone will check it out.

And because it is not so hard to determine, I hope that it is done if it
strengthens the case for Case, but it seems to be a trial pursuit.

> It is already known from Little's experiments that H2 and D2 have
> convection instabilities at differing temperatures in the Case cell, and
> that these instabilities can influence some forms of calorimetry.  It is
> reasonable that these instabilities might also affect the rate of helium
> scrubbing as well.
>

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 07:18:47 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: OT: Close call in the lab
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I had a real surprise this morning...

http://www.eden.com/~little/motor.html






P.S. "OT" stands for Off-Topic


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 07:58:40 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: CF cause of Spontaneous Human Combustion?
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Me too!

> ----------
> From: 	hheffner mtaonline.net[SMTP:hheffner@mtaonline.net]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Monday, June 21, 1999 4:48 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	RE: CF cause of Spontaneous Human Combustion?
> 
> At 10:31 AM 6/21/99, Scudder, Henry J wrote:
> >Horace
> >        It has been suggested that humans would burn spontaneously if the
> >oxygen content surrounding them is above 40% or so. Maybe this could be
> >tested using a mouse or rat as a high school biology project. Put it in a
> >bell jar, and crank up the oxygen content, and see what happens. I'm sure
> >animal rights people would object, but I suspect your analysis is correct
> >and nothing would happen to the mouse.
> 
> 
> Gee Hank,
> 
> I recently spent 24 hours on oygen.  Glad I didn't go poof!  8^)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 08:08:31 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC: News from Mizuno
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Mitchell Jones writes:

	Is the Advantest R7326-B logger the same as the "old pen
	recorder" to which you referred in your earlier post?

Nope. The data logger is attached to the computer and I think it is new.
The pen recorder is attached to nothing and it has been in the lab for
years. I saw it when I was there, and he refers to it in old papers. I wish
all laboratories had old pen recorders and other analog instruments lying
around. A couple of years ago at Georgia Tech they threw away a treasure
trove of old analog instruments. Fortunately, the high school science
teachers found out about it and brought much of the stuff to the high
school classrooms.


Scott Little writes:

	The electrolyte is well-stirred and its temperature is
	maintained below the boiling point.  Bubbles of steam produced
	at the cathode have to travel up through below-boiling liquid
	before they reach the surface.

The cathode must be well below of the surface of the water.


	> I think the method was so simple and not so high temperature. I am
	>surprising that was so high excess heat generation, do you have any
	>idea how we can obtain such value?

	He's asking ME how to make the excess heat bigger!  

I think it's more a case of asking what you think of it.


	Regarding the fluctuating input power issue, Jed already posted
	a nice rework of what Mizuno said about that.  BTW, I think he
	meant Yokogawa power meter...not Advantest.

Yeah I think so. I interrupted him when he was writing that message. He
arranged a hotel room for $50 per night at the height of the Sapporo
tourist season, with a university discount.


Ross Tessien writes:

	As for using heat as the proof (a different thing from a
	discussion ender), you need enough heat to be beyond question.

Right. That is the kind of heat I had in mind.


	 I tend to agree with Gene on that one, it will take until
	someone builds a saleable power generator to settle the debate
	if the debate is to be settled without an understanding of the
	mechanisms.

I agree too, but Gene and I think this is a travesty. It should not be this
way. Other scientific breakthroughs, like x-rays and superconductivity,
were accepted before the mechanism was understood. Scientists have set an
unprecedented, one-time-only rule for cold fusion, that they will not
accept it until the mechanism is clear. This is the first time in history
this restriction has been set, and we hope it is the last time.


Mike Carrell writes:

	The divide-and-conquer tactic would treat wood fire and coal
	fire as entirely separate phenomena, refusing to recognize a
	common process.

Chris Tinsley would have said that a more widespread and understandable
error is to treat wood fire and sugar metabolism as entirely separate
phenomena, refusing to recognize a common process. He believed cold fusion
has as many manifestations as oxidation.


Horace Heffner writes:

	Science by aphorism *is* terrible, isn't it?

It is okay when I agree with the aphorism! For example, "entities should
not be multiplied needlessly" is fine. As long as we remember this is a
rule of thumb and not a physical. Another problem is that people
misunderstand these short, pithy aphorisms and they restate them in
nonsensical ways, such as: "the simplest explanation is true" or "put down
that calculator and stop multiplying numbers. You must *guess* the answer."
That's the slogan of the anti-quantitation league, led by Douglass
Morrison. "Numbers are tyranny! We will not be bossed around by orders of
magnitude!"

- Jed

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David Jonsson wrote:

> >> Also notable is that a uranium ceramic would have less density and thus be
> >> less effective than pure metal in a projectile.
> >
> >This may be true in fact, but it is at least possibly not true. Protons and
> >neutrons are roughly the same size in the nucleus, so the heavier elemental
> >nucleuses are only a small portion of the atomic volume -- it is the
> >electron cloud that really increases in volume.
>
> The ceramic has 92% of the bulk density of Uranium according to Aviation Week & Space Technology, March 9 1992 , pp. 66-67. If someone gets this article please fax it to me. I have a US-faxnumber. Or scan and email.

There was a story in one of the journals about a year ago (sorry can't recall the citation) concerning a U cermet that had slightly higher density than bulk U. I believe the major additive was beryl. Beryllium,
although low density, is known to alloy into several metals giving higher density than the base.

Regards,
Jones




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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Scott,

Scary stuff!  It might have just burned itself until open, but . . .

Lab safety often does not get the attention it requires.  Like my previous
work with FAA radars: if users become aware of equipment problems, there has
been a failure to maintain.  That motor looks as old as me.  If you want to
keep using it, you may want to check current draw in case insulation is
breaking down.  Also, installing an in-line fuse slightly above rated
amperage wouldn't hurt.  Breakers only work when the draw gets high enough.

I don't think safety is off-topic.

Very glad no real damage occurred,

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Little [mailto:little eden.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 1999 10:20 AM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: OT: Close call in the lab
>
>
> I had a real surprise this morning...
>
> http://www.eden.com/~little/motor.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
> P.S. "OT" stands for Off-Topic
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 09:40:11 1999
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Subject: Yokogawa meter info
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Information in English about the WT130 power meter that Mizuno is using can
be found at:

http://www.yokogawa.co.jp/Measurement/English/Products/Bulletins-e/WT110/WT1
10-e.html

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 09:43:37 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 12:37:10 -0000
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Scott wrote:

>Look, I'm almost as
>suspicious as you are about Mizuno's input power measurement but we're
>going to have to come up with some other hypothesis for the error, OK?

Please make that "possible error" not "the error."

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 09:49:53 1999
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Subject: Re: Case & Arata
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>The divide-and-conquer tactic would treat wood fire and coal fire as
>entirely separate phenomena, refusing to recognize a common process.
>
>Mike Carrell

Yes -- well-put, Mike, and the refusal of the critics, for example,  to 
acknowledge the profound implications of tritium measurements (sans 
corresponding neutrons) by impeccable labs with multiply redundant cross 
checks stands as a resounding condemnation of Sagan's  idiotic fallacy:

 "Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof."

This aphorism should be re-written:

"The unelected high priests of science demand that new phenomena be 
continuously denied and attacked unless it serves the purpose  of the 
high priests to assert that ''extraordinary proof has been acheived for 
an extraordinary claim.'"

Stick that in your ear Sagan, wherever you are or aren't!

Gene Mallove

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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 12:14:02 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
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>At 03:50 PM 6/21/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>***{My understanding of your setup may be flawed, but I have been assuming
>>that the "flow calorimeter" portion of your setup is external to the cell
>>itself, and that the cell is just a beaker full of electrolyte with the
>>necessary electrodes and instrumentation.
>
>that is correct.  Details of the thermal coupling can be viewed at:
>
>http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/detail.html
>
>>If so, it strikes me as highly
>>implausible that such a cell could operate for more than an hour without
>>boiling off a significant portion of the electrolyte.
>
>Well, it really happens.  The electrolyte is well-stirred and its
>temperature is maintained below the boiling point.  Bubbles of steam
>produced at the cathode have to travel up through below-boiling liquid
>before they reach the surface.  The majority of them condense violently on
>the way up creating the impressive rumbling sound the cell makes.  If
>you've never blown steam through a hose submerged in water you simply must
>experience it to believe the sound it makes.
>
>>Is it merely the fact that you are running with the electrolyte at a lower
>>temperature, thereby encouraging the steam to immediately recondense...
>
>Bingo.
>
>>Also, why do
>>you not simply weigh the electrolyte before and after a run...
>
>That would work...it just seemed cleaner to condense the water out of the
>escaping gas stream.  We're talking about less than a gram.
>
>>{Unless I miss my guess, the "pen recorder" is an analog instrument. If
>>so, it has built-in inertial dampening, which prevents it from responding
>>to fast transients. Thus you are down to two instruments....
>
>Jed's right.  It is GOOD that the analog meter has damping and smoothing.
>It means that the displayed result will be a good AVERAGE value for the
>current, which is exactly what is required to get an accurate Pin
>measurement in this constant-voltage situation.

***{First, I merely *guessed* that the pen recorder was an analog
instrument; I do not know it for a fact.

Second, if you think analog instruments are so great here, why don't you
use them?

Third, I'm unwilling to simply *assume* that this is a constant voltage
situation, because the kinds of current spikes that are probably occurring
are very likely to produce voltage oscillations at the meter.

Fourth, an analog pen recorder would be a horrible choice in a situation
such as this, due to the strong possibility that it is going to clip off
the spikes in a way that will *not* produce an average value for the
current. A pen recorder actually makes a physical trace on a moving sheet
of paper, usually as it unrolls from one spool onto another. As such, the
instantaneous position of the needle is not determined merely by the
electromagnetic force required to deflect the needle against the resistance
of a mechanical spring, but also by the mechanical pressure exerted by the
tip of the "pen" on the paper, which is adjustable by a set screw. The more
pressure the "pen" is set to exert on the paper, the less will be its
ability to respond to brief transients, due the binding effects of surface
irregularities in the paper. What this means is that at a given instant the
tip of the "pen" is not free to move rapidly, as a large amplitude spike
would require. It will, however, respond to a persistent force because the
movement of the paper itself will remove any surface irregularities that
may briefly bind the pen into a given position, thereby freeing the needle
to move in response to any force that persists. However, brief transients
that appear and are gone before the movement of the paper frees the pen
from the irregularity of the moment will not affect the trace at all, and
will *not* be "averaged in." Under such circumstances, it will be as if
those transients do not exist.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>>***{Is the Advantest R7326-B logger the same as the "old pen recorder" to
>>which you referred in your earlier post?...
>
>No, the Advantest is a modern digital data logger.  You can read about its
>specs on their web site.
>
>>As I mentioned earlier, old fashioned pen
>>recorders are mechanical instruments and, as such, are afflicted with a
>>form of dampening that results from the inertia of their moving parts and
>>renders them incapable of responding to very fast transients. Thus if a
>>computer samples a data stream that measures the position of the needle of
>>an old fashioned pen recorder, then very fast spikes are guaranteed to be
>>lost from the computer input.
>
>Not lost.  Averaged...which is exactly what we want in this case.

***{Like it or not, the possibility exists that they may be lost, for the
reasons given above, and for other reasons that I will get into later, if
necessary. Since, based on what has been posted in this group so far, we do
not presently know diddley about the operating characteristics of Mizuno's
instruments, it follows that to conclude that all is well is to assume
facts not in evidence. --MJ}***

>
>>Result: any computation based on such a data
>>stream, however sophisticated the algorithm may be, is going to
>>undermeasure input power, if spikes are in fact present.
>
>Your hypothesis is simply incorrect.  When the voltage is constant, you
>need to multiply it by the AVERAGE current, spikes and all.

***{I repeat: (1) A pen recorder is a slow response instrument, due to the
mechanical characteristics of its moving parts. Any "average" waveform that
shows on such an instrument will clip the tops off of spikes that have a
rise time shorter than some critical level, and if a significant portion of
the total power is carried by such spikes, the result will be significant
undermeasurement of that power. (2) We do not know for a fact that the
voltage into Mizuno's meter is constant. --Mitchell Jones}***

 If you A metering
>device that automatically averages the current, such as an old fasioned
>d'Arsenval movement (i.e. older pen recorders, analog meters, etc.) is a
>good way to achieve that averaging.

***{We are talking about pen recorders here. However, for the record, I
wouldn't even trust an old fashioned needle galvanometer in an application
of this sort, due to the possibility that there might be enough friction
between the needle and its support to produce binding that would clip the
tops off of spikes. The only way I see to overcome these difficulties is to
use a digital meter with a lot of onboard intelligence, backed up by a fast
scope and an explicit search for tuned in spikes. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>I'm not going to let you cover up Mizuno's excess heat with this spike
>hypothesis, Mitchell.  That dog just won't hunt.  Look, I'm almost as
>suspicious as you are about Mizuno's input power measurement but we're
>going to have to come up with some other hypothesis for the error, OK?

***{We don't have to agree, Scott. It isn't a problem. I do have one final
query for you, though: what are you going to do when, as seems likely, you
fail to obtain excess heat from Mizuno's cathodes? You can't very well
claim that his Pout was too high, because it is clearly a bit low. All that
will remain, therefore, will be his Pin, which will have to have been
undermeasured. But how are you going to deal with that state of affairs,
given that you have already endorsed his peachy keen instruments which,
according to you, could not possibly be missing any of those pesky spikes?
:-) --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>Scott Little
>EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
>512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX)
>little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 10:32:38 1999
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Yokogawa meter info
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>Information in English about the WT130 power meter that Mizuno is using can
>be found at:
>
>http://www.yokogawa.co.jp/Measurement/English/Products/Bulletins-e/WT110/WT1
>10-e.html
>
>- Jed

***{Is it possible that there is a typo in the above URL? When I attempt to
access the site, I get the following message:

"Not Found. The requested object does not exist on this server. The link
you followed is either outdated, inaccurate, or the server has been
instructed not to let you have it."

--Mitchell Jones}***

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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:55:40 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
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Mitchell Jones writes:

>***{We don't have to agree, Scott. It isn't a problem. I do have one final
>query for you, though: what are you going to do when, as seems likely, you
>fail to obtain excess heat from Mizuno's cathodes? You can't very well
>claim that his Pout was too high, because it is clearly a bit low. All that
>will remain, therefore, will be his Pin, which will have to have been
>undermeasured.

No, that will not be "all." Not by a long shot! You do not understand
electrochemistry if you think that will be "all that will remain." All that
will remain, in that case, would be two or three years of grueling,
painstaking work -- the kind of work that Mizuno himself did in order to
replicate the effect more often.

You and Scott Little have an infuriating desire to over-simplify matters
and reach a quick yes-or-no answer to questions which might take years or
decades to resolve. This is science, not a quiz show on television.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: Yokogawa meter info
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Mitchell Jones writes:

>>http://www.yokogawa.co.jp/Measurement/English/Products/Bulletins-e/WT110/WT1
>>10-e.html
>>
>>- Jed
>
>***{Is it possible that there is a typo in the above URL? When I attempt to
>access the site, I get the following message:

That is probably because the line is too long and it was split. Be sure to
include the ". . . 10-e.html" part. Or, you can look at:

http://www.yokogawa.co.jp/Measurement/English/Products/Bulletins-e/WT110

. . . and select WT110-e.html from the list, or WT100specs.pdf.

If all else fails, go to:

http://www.yokogawa.co.jp/Measurement/English/search.html

. . . and input the search string WT110.

- Jed

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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
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At 12:37 6/22/99 -0000, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>>Look, I'm almost as
>>suspicious as you are about Mizuno's input power measurement but we're
>>going to have to come up with some other hypothesis for the error, OK?
>
>Please make that "possible error" not "the error."

Indeed! In fact, the reason I'm still in this experiment is the hope that
there is no significant error in Mizuno's data.

Mitchell Jones wrote:

>I do have one final
>query for you, though: what are you going to do when, as seems likely, you
>fail to obtain excess heat from Mizuno's cathodes? 

Conclude that either I can't do the experiment, or he's making big
measurement errors.  Depending upon the our gut feel at that time, we might
spring for a trip to Mizuno's lab...with our VWFC.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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Gee Scott. Anymore excitement and you'll SHC.

On Tue, 22 Jun 1999, Scott Little wrote:

> I had a real surprise this morning...
> 
> http://www.eden.com/~little/motor.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. "OT" stands for Off-Topic
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 11:57:10 1999
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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:59:01 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: Carbon helium source is useless speculation
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At 9:14 AM 6/22/99, Ed Wall wrote:
[snip]
>And because it is not so hard to determine, I hope that it is done if it
>strengthens the case for Case, but it seems to be a trial pursuit.

If results are negative with respect to the carbon holding helium then it
will greatly strengthen the result for case, because what is left as an
alternative explanation is mostly ruled out.  However, a positive result is
also possible.  I hope it is checked out whether the results are positive
or negative.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:12:03 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
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Scott Little wrote:

>Conclude that either I can't do the experiment, or he's making big
>measurement errors.

You mean: he and the fellow in Kyoto are both making big measurement
errors, independently, with different calorimeter types. That would be a
bold conclusion.

By the way, that should be spelled "Kansai Research Institute (KRI)" with
an "a" in Kansai. That means the Kyoto - Osaka - Kobe region, where people
talk proper, understandable, southern-style s-l-o-w Japanese.

I hope that we get permission to publish information about this replication.

- Jed

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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:32:21 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990622151203.007d0840 pop.mindspring.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.19990622133741.00aba590 mail.eden.com>
 <199906221639.MAA18231 mercury.mv.net>
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At 15:12 6/22/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>You mean: he and the fellow in Kyoto are both making big measurement
>errors, independently, with different calorimeter types. That would be a
>bold conclusion.

Indeed.  Further, Mizuno tells me that KRI are using a power analyzer they
made themselves which interfaces to their computer...i.e. it's different
that Mizuno's.

>By the way, that should be spelled "Kansai Research Institute (KRI)" with
>an "a" in Kansai. That means the Kyoto - Osaka - Kobe region, where people
>talk proper, understandable, southern-style s-l-o-w Japanese.

Thank you.

>I hope that we get permission to publish information about this replication.

Me, too.  I would like to obtain full details of their experiment.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 13:16:58 1999
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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:04:34 -1000
Subject: Re: CF cause of Spontaneous Human Combustion?
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Mike -

   >  reports of people catching light in the middle of
   >  dance floors accompanied by an orchestra and blue
   >  flashing lights

Dancing, motion, static build-up.

Flatulence, static discharge, ignition.


- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 13:20:36 1999
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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:13:57 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
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At 01:37 PM 6/22/99 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>At 12:37 6/22/99 -0000, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
>
>>>Look, I'm almost as
>>>suspicious as you are about Mizuno's input power measurement but we're
>>>going to have to come up with some other hypothesis for the error, OK?
>>
>>Please make that "possible error" not "the error."
>
>Indeed! In fact, the reason I'm still in this experiment is the hope that
>there is no significant error in Mizuno's data.





   There are errors in both systems.  

   Scott has the additional error[s] -- so far -- of missing the
excess heat.

    Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 13:24:27 1999
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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 12:26:58 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
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At 1:37 PM 6/22/99, Scott Little wrote:

>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>I do have one final
>>query for you, though: what are you going to do when, as seems likely, you
>>fail to obtain excess heat from Mizuno's cathodes?
>
>Conclude that either I can't do the experiment, or he's making big
>measurement errors.  Depending upon the our gut feel at that time, we might
>spring for a trip to Mizuno's lab...with our VWFC.


I can't understand why all the dialog on this specific issue when it is
self evident that Mizuno can clear it all up with a capacitor and two
inductors inside his calorimeter to filter the spikes.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 12:26:48 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: SHC experiment
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If wicking is a valid explanation for spontaneous human combustion, then an
experiment should produce similar results using a large ham with bone and
skin.  How is this for a protocol:

1.  Place ham on a roughly 1' by 1' patch of carpet
2.  Wrap ham with piece of cloth, e.g. an old shirt
3.  Insert birthday cake candle in side of ham through hole in cloth
4.  Place all in location safe for fire and smoke, but not in wind
5.  Light candle


I think the carpet is overkill, however, since SHC has been observed in a
bathroom environment (it burned a hole through a linoleum floor) and deep
under skin where no wick was present.  However, this approach seems to give
SHC (now spontaneous HAM combustion) the best chance.

If the result is not that bone is reduced to a powder or not that a sweet
burning sugar smell results, then the results are negative.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 13:24:50 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Carbon helium source is useless speculation
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At 8:42 AM 6/22/99, Michael T Huffman wrote:
[snip]
>If we waited for the
>telephone company to track down, understand, and fix every little line
>problem between me and you, for example, before we did any modem work, we'd
>be waiting until Elvis returned :-)

Yes, but that is the engineering or entrepreneurial approach, not the
scientific approach.  If you want to take that approach forget helium
altogether.  The helium question is only of scientific interest.  There is
no money in it.  Using your suggested approach the way to go is to start
producing a product, say a home heating system, or water heater.  Of course
an experimental kit will probaly come first.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 13:25:53 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
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At 8:50 AM 6/22/99, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
[snip]
>   Helium clathrates are seen only at low temps.
>
>   Helium does not relatively bind to charcoal, and thus it has
>been used to separate other inert gases from He.
>   "Helium": Ne is removed from He by fresh activated carbon at
>    -77 deg C. He is then purified to <= 50 ppm by Ac-C at -202
>    deg C at 200 atm pressure." (per Murray)
>
>   Given the above, and the flushing, and the kinetics observed,
>the purported 'helium binding', like the purported helium contamination,
>seems to be another red herring that -- in the absence of evidence
>from the critics based upon substantive data -- has been now laid to rest.
>
>    Mitchell Swartz


"Laid to rest," dream on Mitchell!

The Case effect is very specific to the catalyst chosen.  You can not make
such sweeping generalities about carbon in general, because carbon comes in
many molecular and macro forms.  Nor can you necessarily infer anything
about the use of carbon at -77 C when the subject phenonmena is known to be
sensitive to temperature changes in the Case cell operating range.  Most
important, it is not the critics who must prove anything, it is the
experiment that must prove something.  Laid to rest?  If saying only made
it so.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 13:34:52 1999
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At 12:26 PM 6/22/99 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:

>"Laid to rest," dream on Mitchell!
>
>The Case effect is very specific to the catalyst chosen.  You can not make
>such sweeping generalities about carbon in general, because carbon comes in
>many molecular and macro forms.  Nor can you necessarily infer anything
>about the use of carbon at -77 C when the subject phenonmena is known to be
>sensitive to temperature changes in the Case cell operating range.  Most
>important, it is not the critics who must prove anything, it is the
>experiment that must prove something.  Laid to rest?  If saying only made
>it so.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          


    Sorry Horace to disappoint you, but it is based upon my library
search AND the fact that all the experimental groups correctly
measured contaminantion, and leakage, as is standard opeational practice.

    The critics can make up anything they want.  Their criticisms
ought to either conform to observations, either present or past,
or have some corroborating data.  In these cases there is none.


    If you can get some, good luck.  For now, it's not there,
and the cold fusion data is.  Further, the cf data is growing
and is consistent.


     Have a good day.

      Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 13:37:08 1999
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
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At 12:26 PM 6/22/99 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:

>I can't understand why all the dialog on this specific issue when it is
>self evident that Mizuno can clear it all up with a capacitor and two
>inductors inside his calorimeter to filter the spikes.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          

   This is a red herring.  The failure to replicate Mizunos
experiment is because, although he apparently understands the implications
of the OPTIMAL OPERATING POINT, others have less understanding.

   Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 13:58:54 1999
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Gene -

  > "Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof."

I've seen the quote that way, which I've always taken to be the original
version for some reason, and also as "extraordinary claims demand
extraordinary evidence", which doesn't sound entirely inappropriate.
Extraordinary evidence tends to converge to proof.

But the former version of the quote is logically wrong, and embodies what is
wrong with the pathological rejection of extensive evidence for the
existence of some phenomena which certain people, for whatever reason, might
consider "extraordinary".

Anyone know for sure which is the correct version of the quote?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 13:59:33 1999
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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:57:59 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: SHC experiment
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Enterprising H.H. suggests:

>If wicking is a valid explanation for spontaneous human combustion, then an
>experiment should produce similar results using a large ham with bone and
>skin.  How is this for a protocol:
>
>1.  Place ham on a roughly 1' by 1' patch of carpet

This is just a guess, but the chemistry of a large ham is substantially
different from that of a live animal, and this may make a big difference.
You are missing blood and many chemicals. You might have to use a freshly
killed animal to make a valid test of this hypothesis. It could get messy!
Of course, if the ham test worked, it would lend support to this SHC theory.

My guess is that the phonomenon is real and it has multiple causes. The
wicking effect seems to explain some instances, but not others. There is no
question that bodies are a potent source of fuel, once you get around the
water problem. The Egyptian railroads used to fire their steam locomotives
with mummies. Those were politically incorrect times . . .

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 14:06:41 1999
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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:04:03 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
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Mitch Swartz writes:

>    The critics can make up anything they want.  Their criticisms
>ought to either conform to observations, either present or past,
>or have some corroborating data.  In these cases there is none.

Yes, this is what Mike McKubre calls the "hint and run" tactic. No
quantification or evidence is called for -- saying makes it so.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 14:08:13 1999
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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:11:49 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
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At 04:30 PM 6/22/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 12:26 PM 6/22/99 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>I can't understand why all the dialog on this specific issue when it is
>>self evident that Mizuno can clear it all up with a capacitor and two
>>inductors inside his calorimeter to filter the spikes.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Horace Heffner          
>
>   This is a red herring.  The failure to replicate Mizunos
>experiment is because, although he apparently understands the implications
>of the OPTIMAL OPERATING POINT, others have less understanding.
>
>   Mitchell Swartz
> 

Oh, I see now. Scott fails to replicate Mizunos experiment because people
other than Scott don't understand these important implications.

--Lynn

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Subject: Re: SHC experiment
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I wrote:

>You are missing blood and many chemicals.

I meant to add "gases" which may be especially important to trigger the
reaction.  Whatever else SHC is, I suppose it must be a gas flame in the
early stages. This is the one well-known, common form of HC. As Rick
Monteverde pointed out, static buildup plus flatulence is a likely trigger.
How it keeps burning after that I couldn't guess.

- Jed

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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Re: SHC experiment
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Hey everyone,

Start carrying a candle around with you, the next road kill you see, let's
do science.  Of course you may want to avoid attracting attention, this may
not be on the approved list of activities by the SPCA & PETA.  You may also 
raise a few eyebrows with your local police.

Bill
webriggs concentric.net

>This is just a guess, but the chemistry of a large ham is substantially
>different from that of a live animal, and this may make a big difference.
>You are missing blood and many chemicals. You might have to use a freshly
>killed animal to make a valid test of this hypothesis. It could get messy!
>Of course, if the ham test worked, it would lend support to this SHC theory.

>Jed,

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 14:37:16 1999
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At 05:04 PM 6/22/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Mitch Swartz writes:
>
>>    The critics can make up anything they want.  Their criticisms
>>ought to either conform to observations, either present or past,
>>or have some corroborating data.  In these cases there is none.
>
>Yes, this is what Mike McKubre calls the "hint and run" tactic. No
>quantification or evidence is called for -- saying makes it so.
>
>- Jed


   Sorry Jed.   My post about optimal operating points
was a "hint and run" tactic, perhaps -- but NOT the above.

There must be SOME basis for statements made by critics -
and supporters too.  Perhaps THAT is why we disagree so
much. When told '2+2 = 5', or 'calibrations are not needed',
or 'rubies are red from iron', it is realized that these
statements are wrong.  

   Hope that clarifies.
    Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 14:44:33 1999
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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:32:04 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
In-Reply-To: <199906222108.OAA31390 smtp.asu.edu>
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Lynn Kurtz writes:

>>   This is a red herring.  The failure to replicate Mizunos
>>experiment is because, although he apparently understands the implications
>>of the OPTIMAL OPERATING POINT, others have less understanding.
>>
>>   Mitchell Swartz
>> 
>
>Oh, I see now. Scott fails to replicate Mizunos experiment because people
>other than Scott don't understand these important implications.

Swartz means, of course, that Scott does not understand the optimal
operating points. I think that is correct, but we can hardly blame Scott.
Mizuno has not explained them clearly yet. He has given us some important
graphs and pointers about the threshold values and range of voltage and
temperatures and so on, but he has not yet spelled it out all of these
optimal operating points clearly. Or perhaps Mizuno has explained and Scott
understands it better than I do, but he, in turn, has not yet written up
his "formulas." All I know is that could not sit down and tell you, step by
step, which values must be reached in which order, and exactly how to go
about doing this.

There are three main reasons Mizuno has not explained in detail yet:

1. He has not had time to explain in English or in a formal paper. We are
working on that. He has been in close cooperation with the fellow at KRI,
including a visit, and obviously they find it easier to communicate, with a
common language. The guy at KRI apparently knows a thing or two about
electrochemistry too, which helps tremendously. This is knowing about
nuclear energy before you try to replicate a tokamak.

2. He does not clearly know himself. The experiment only works 7 times in
10. This is to be expected. If it worked 10 times in 10, and the excess
heat always turned on immediately, I would assume it is an artifact of the
instruments.

3. We are hoping that by using EXACTLY the same materials and techniques,
the experiment can be copied blindly, but a person with no background or
relevant skills. Me, for example. This is roughly equivalent to saying that
if you pre-package a small tokamak and show me by rote how to use it, maybe
I can turn the thing on and cause a small but definite plasma fusion
reaction. I do know how to operate complicated machinery, after all. Maybe
this shortcut will work, maybe it won't. When you do not use EXACTLY the
same materials and configuration to the nearest millimeter, at exactly the
same temperatures and voltage, all bets are off. Very slight changes make
huge differences in chemistry. Change it, and you are on your own and you
must go back to first principles, which I am totally incapable of doing.

Perhaps Swartz believes that he can predict the optimal operating points
based on a theory. I cannot judge. He would have to replicate the
experiment and demonstrate a cell to convince me.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 14:43:31 1999
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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:41:15 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: SHC experiment
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Bill Briggs suggests:

>Hey everyone,
>
>Start carrying a candle around with you, the next road kill you see, let's
>do science.  Of course you may want to avoid attracting attention, this may
>not be on the approved list of activities by the SPCA & PETA.  You may also 
>raise a few eyebrows with your local police.

This is getting disgusting . . . but an obvious, mundane fact just occured
to me. Dead animals often swell up and fill with gas. I have never tried to
ignite the gas, but I'll bet it burns well. A human body lying dead in a
chair for a few days might build up a huge supply of volatile gas. I wonder
if the people who investigated cases of SHC noticed the usual overpowering
stench of a dead body, or if they found the rooms were unusually free of
odor. The latter would indicate that the gas was held back, and it built up
and ignited all at once.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 14:46:11 1999
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
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At 02:11 PM 6/22/99 -0700, Lynn Kurtz wrote:

>Oh, I see now. Scott fails to replicate Mizunos experiment because people
>other than Scott don't understand these important implications.
>
>--Lynn


   We ALL fail when we dont understand key parameters, Lynn.

   And that applies to hot, cold, and muon fusion.    ;-)X

    Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 14:57:09 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
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M.S. writes:

>>Yes, this is what Mike McKubre calls the "hint and run" tactic. No
>>quantification or evidence is called for -- saying makes it so.
>
>   Sorry Jed.   My post about optimal operating points
>was a "hint and run" tactic, perhaps -- but NOT the above.

I meant the critics 'hint and run,' not you. I was agreeing with your
statements about helium in carbon. McKubre agrees with them too, and he
said that of course they considered these issues and ran the numbers on the
"known solubility of He" before they started. To put it politely, according
to the experts and the textbooks all of these hypotheses are bunk and a
total waste of time. (He did not say that -- I did, just now.)

As for you, you do not even "hint" as far as I can tell. No hints, no runs.
I have no earthly idea what operating points and Pi notches you might have
in mind, and I am sure you have no plans to enlighten me. Mizuno teaches
for a living and I am sure he will make a brave effort to explain and train
me, and cooperate as he has with the fellow in Kyoto and with Scott Little,
but you will never cooperate or explicate your theory in terms that an
ordinary mortal might understand, or raise a finger to attract funding,
support, customers and success. Mizuno is doing everything right, and if
his measurments are correct he may soon have some of the most powerful
corporations and government agencies on earth working with him and
supporting his research. You will have nothing because you refuse to act on
your own behalf.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 15:03:52 1999
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
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At 05:55 PM 6/22/99 -0400, you wrote:
>M.S. writes:
>
>>>Yes, this is what Mike McKubre calls the "hint and run" tactic. No
>>>quantification or evidence is called for -- saying makes it so.
>>
>>   Sorry Jed.   My post about optimal operating points
>>was a "hint and run" tactic, perhaps -- but NOT the above.
>
>I meant the critics 'hint and run,' not you. I was agreeing with your
>statements about helium in carbon. McKubre agrees with them too, and he
>said that of course they considered these issues and ran the numbers on the
>"known solubility of He" before they started. To put it politely, according
>to the experts and the textbooks all of these hypotheses are bunk and a
>total waste of time. (He did not say that -- I did, just now.)
>
>As for you, you do not even "hint" as far as I can tell. No hints, no runs.
>I have no earthly idea what operating points and Pi notches you might have
>in mind, and I am sure you have no plans to enlighten me.
        ... (ad hominems zipped)


   Au contraire. I am sorry you missed my presentation at ICCF7, but
Akira has tapes.   Also there are the Proceedings and several papers
thereafter, if you are ever serious about these matters - and elect
to lift yourself up from the ad hominems which followed in your post.

  Have a good day.

    Mitchell Swartz




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 15:13:34 1999
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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:11:23 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Thomas N. Claytor" <claytor lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: Claytor's Tritium Website?
In-Reply-To: <4968c89a.24a0311e aol.com>
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We hope to have the web site back up, but because of all the security
standowns 
and other (more pressing) issues we have not had time to move it out.
Tom.

At 08:21 PM 6/21/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Tom,
>
>Your tritweb site at Los Alamos seems to have been moved behind a firewall.  
>(Firewall courtesy of Wen Ho Li?)   
>
>Or has your tritium website just been moved to a new URL?
>
>Tom Stolper
> 
http://www.nde.lanl.gov/staff/claytor/claytor.htm
Thomas N. Claytor	Claytor lanl.gov
Los Alamos National Laboratory
ESA-MT, MS C914
Los Alamos NM, 87545
505-667-6216 voice
505-665-7176 fax

Shipping Address:
Thomas N. Claytor
Los Alamos National Lab
Receiving/SM 30
Bikini Atoll Rd
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Attention: Drop Point 01S



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 15:19:28 1999
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From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
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Subject: Re: SHC experiment
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> Start carrying a candle around with you, the next road kill you see,
let's
> do science.  Of course you may want to avoid attracting attention, this
may
> not be on the approved list of activities by the SPCA & PETA.  You may
also 
> raise a few eyebrows with your local police.

I guess you could do it in Tennessee. From what I have heard, it is now
legal to eat anything road kill. Why shouldn't it be legal to conduct a
science experiment on it? If anyone asks, just tell them you were cooking
it (the animal in question) before eating it...;)

--Kyle

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 15:22:05 1999
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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 12:10:30 -1000
Subject: SHC - one of 49 kinds of fire?
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
To: "vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Vo -

I've read that the Vedic text speak of 49 different kinds of fire. 
Apparently electrical discharges or plasmas and even nuclear reactions are
included in the list as types of fires.

In SHC, bones are turned to dust, and that doesn't even happen (typically)
in creamatoria.

Tungsten doesn't easily melt, but Brown's gas and whatever is happening in
"boiled lightning" apparently cooks it pretty good.

Another kind of fire at work? Sometimes these old writings have a way of
popping up with some striking resonance if not outright relevance, as
physicists found out when they were exposed to this literature during the
time roughly surrounding the development of controlled nuclear reactions
during WW2. Perhaps there are clues to be learned there regarding some of
these rare phenomena which seem like they might be related to the more
clearly categorized if not clearly understood CF phenomena.

Jed, can you translate Sanskrit too?  ;)

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 15:26:08 1999
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>On Tue, 22 Jun 1999, Scott Little wrote:
>
>> I had a real surprise this morning...
>> 
>> http://www.eden.com/~little/motor.html

You'll see this happen more often with aluminum products.  On boats it's a
real problem.  It was considered clever for a while to save money, and buy
wiring for AC lines that had the hot wire copper and the grounds aluminum,
but at sea they would sometimes disintegrate in a matter of months.  That
practice has been almost completely eliminated by regulation, although some
do-it-yourself yachters and that I've seen have continued to use aluminum.
Aluminum electric motor casings that have been submerged in seawater have to
be rinsed in fresh water and baked repeatedly water to get the salt out, or
you end up buying new ones.  There is also a bit of copper in most aluminum
products, which can be the preferred electrical pathway, and can cause
localized heating.  There may even be some rectifying properties of aluminum
oxide, but I haven't seen anything specific on that.  The fortuitous timing
of your discovery was quite phenomenal!

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 15:35:00 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: RE: CF cause of Spontaneous Human Combustion?
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 18:38:57 -0400
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>> 
>> I recently spent 24 hours on oygen.  Glad I didn't go poof!  8^)
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Horace Heffner          

Now that would have been very fuelish of you, Horace. ;)

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 15:44:25 1999
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From: "Edward Kauffmann" <edkl triton.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: SHC - one of 49 kinds of fire?
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 18:47:27 -0400
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<snip>
>Another kind of fire at work? Sometimes these old writings have a way of
>popping up with some striking resonance if not outright relevance, as
>physicists found out when they were exposed to this literature during the
>time roughly surrounding the development of controlled nuclear reactions
>during WW2. Perhaps there are clues to be learned there regarding some of
>these rare phenomena which seem like they might be related to the more
>clearly categorized if not clearly understood CF phenomena.
>
>Jed, can you translate Sanskrit too?  ;)
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI
>


Thanks Rick!  That's kind of what I was getting at when I brought up SHC.
To step back and look at other things that could be related to what we are
trying to do and see if there is anything useful to extract from that
evidence.

Regards,

Ed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 16:01:15 1999
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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:03:31 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: SHC experiment
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At 5:09 PM 6/22/99, Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 wrote:
>Hey everyone,
>
>Start carrying a candle around with you, the next road kill you see, let's
>do science.

Gee, Bill, here in Alaska road kill weighs in around 1200 lbs, and various
charities sit on waiting lists for the meat.


At 4:57 PM 6/22/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:
[snip]
> The Egyptian railroads used to fire their steam locomotives
>with mummies. Those were politically incorrect times . . .


Awesome!  Why are we messing around with hydrogen!

I hoped this thread would be good for some comic relief, and now feel a
warm, if bizarre and macabre, sense of satisfaction.  8^)   Thanks for
bringing it up Ed Kauffmann.


At 5:41 PM 6/22/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:
[snip]
> I wonder
>if the people who investigated cases of SHC noticed the usual overpowering
>stench of a dead body, or if they found the rooms were unusually free of
>odor. The latter would indicate that the gas was held back, and it built up
>and ignited all at once.


My understanding is that there is almost always the sweet smell of burt
sugar, and a surprising lack of burt protein smell or other bad smells.
This, plus the powdered bone ash, are among the major mysteries of SHC.
Even the intense heat of gas fired crematoria or from fires from gasolene
truck collisions leaves skeletal remains.

Since a quote from authority seems especially apropos today, how about this
one attributed to Arthur C. Clarke:

"There's one mystery I am asked about more than any other - spontaneous
human combustion.  Some cases still seem to defy explanation, and leave me
with a creepy and very unscientific feeling.  If there's anything more to
spontaneous human combustion, I simply don't want to know."

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 16:02:01 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 19:04:46 -0400
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>>>As I mentioned earlier, old fashioned pen
>>>recorders are mechanical instruments and, as such, are afflicted with a
>>>form of dampening that results from the inertia of their moving parts and
>>>renders them incapable of responding to very fast transients. Thus if a
>>>computer samples a data stream that measures the position of the needle of
>>>an old fashioned pen recorder, then very fast spikes are guaranteed to be
>>>lost from the computer input.

Mitch, what did you think of my Hall Effect clamp and variable speed tape
recorder idea.  It would not have the D'arsenal movement problems, and would
provide a high res magnetic "chart" that could be analysed for your
hypothesis.  It might even show negative resistance characteristics more
clearly.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 16:36:34 1999
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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:39:00 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
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At 5:04 PM 6/22/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Mitch Swartz writes:
>
>>    The critics can make up anything they want.  Their criticisms
>>ought to either conform to observations, either present or past,
>>or have some corroborating data.  In these cases there is none.
>
>Yes, this is what Mike McKubre calls the "hint and run" tactic. No
>quantification or evidence is called for -- saying makes it so.


If this is sinful on the part of the critic it is doubly so on the part of
the experimentor, on whom lies the burden of proof.  Invalid hint and run
tactics wither in effect with independent replication.  Valid hint and runs
however, end up vidicated, true?

This also relates to the reason Mizuno should filter his power at the
experiment end.  Scott Little can stand on his head doing experiments, and
no amount of proof will be acceptable because it is difficult to prove a
negative.  If the real problem is with current spikes how can Little prove
it experimentally?  Mizuno can quickly and cheaply either determine that
fact, or eliminate it as a hypothesis.  Scott is in the role of replicator.
The burden of proof lies with Mizuno.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 16:36:39 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: PLEC: Mizuno's Pin
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At 4:30 PM 6/22/99, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>At 12:26 PM 6/22/99 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>I can't understand why all the dialog on this specific issue when it is
>>self evident that Mizuno can clear it all up with a capacitor and two
>>inductors inside his calorimeter to filter the spikes.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Horace Heffner
>
>   This is a red herring. [snip attempt to make lumpy data stew]

Mmmmmm herrrrring!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 16:36:35 1999
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Subject: Re: Case & Arata
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At 4:28 PM 6/22/99, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
[snip]
>    Sorry Horace to disappoint you, but it is based upon my library
>search


Nothing relevant there, right?  The literature should have nothing
definitive to say on this because the effect is CATALYST SPECIFIC.

>AND the fact that all the experimental groups correctly
>measured contaminantion, and leakage, as is standard opeational practice.


Oh, they DID burn the catalyst and measure the helium?  I didn't catch
that.  Sorry.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 16:52:21 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 19:48:23 EDT
Subject: PLEC:  Ohmori's Development of the Cell?
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Jed, you sound positively gleeful.  I can see why.  Ohmori's plasma 
electrolysis cell does look like the killer demo of excess heat that you've 
been searching for.

So what were its origins?  Did it appear to Ohmori in a dream?  (I'm only 
being half facetious with that question.)

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 17:18:15 1999
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At 03:38 PM 6/22/99 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>At 4:28 PM 6/22/99, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>[snip]
>>    Sorry Horace to disappoint you, but it is based upon my library
>>search
>
>
>Nothing relevant there, right?  The literature should have nothing
>definitive to say on this because the effect is CATALYST SPECIFIC.



   Horace, 


  Excuse me.  But the discussion was about helium purportedly
bound, adsorbed, absorbed, or otherwise contained in shallow
(or other) traps.  That is not a catalytic effect.  That is
a material phenomenon for which the experimenters carefully looked,
at least regarding the outgassing from those purported sites.



>>AND the fact that all the experimental groups correctly
>>measured contaminantion, and leakage, as is standard opeational practice.
>
>
>Oh, they DID burn the catalyst and measure the helium?  I didn't catch
>that.  Sorry.


  Either the purported retained helium comes out ---  
or it doesnt.     If it comes out, then 
their controls would have meassured it.  

  If it does not come out until high temperatures (as occurs
for Group VIII metals), then the criticism is irrelevant.

  In fact, there are probably a distribution of compartments,
and all have low capacitance.

  
   Mitchell Swartz

 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 17:20:41 1999
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At 03:39 PM 6/22/99 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:

>This also relates to the reason Mizuno should filter his power at the
>experiment end.  Scott Little can stand on his head doing experiments, and
>no amount of proof will be acceptable because it is difficult to prove a
>negative.  If the real problem is with current spikes how can Little prove
>it experimentally?  Mizuno can quickly and cheaply either determine that
>fact, or eliminate it as a hypothesis.  Scott is in the role of replicator.
>The burden of proof lies with Mizuno.
>

   Red herrings. 

   Mizuno's data is reasonable, exhibits the tail end of the Optimal
Operating Point, and some of Scott's data (run 4 examined so far) 
is consistent, but the trouble is that there are differences between
the two types of experiments.

     Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 18:53:37 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
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At 8:11 PM 6/22/99, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>At 03:38 PM 6/22/99 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>>At 4:28 PM 6/22/99, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>>[snip]
>>>    Sorry Horace to disappoint you, but it is based upon my library
>>>search
>>
>>
>>Nothing relevant there, right?  The literature should have nothing
>>definitive to say on this because the effect is CATALYST SPECIFIC.
>
>
>
>   Horace,
>
>
>  Excuse me.  But the discussion was about helium purportedly
>bound, adsorbed, absorbed, or otherwise contained in shallow
>(or other) traps.  That is not a catalytic effect.

I didn't say or imply it was a catlytic effect.  Only that different
catlysts produce differing effects in the Case cell.  The logical
conclusion is that the structure of the individual catalysts may be
different.  All carbon is not the same.


>That is
>a material phenomenon for which the experimenters carefully looked,
>at least regarding the outgassing from those purported sites.
>
>
>
>>>AND the fact that all the experimental groups correctly
>>>measured contaminantion, and leakage, as is standard opeational practice.
>>
>>
>>Oh, they DID burn the catalyst and measure the helium?  I didn't catch
>>that.  Sorry.
>
>
>  Either the purported retained helium comes out ---
>or it doesnt.     If it comes out, then
>their controls would have meassured it.

No.  There is insufficient data to say that the helium is not veing
scrubbed from a large reservoir in the carbon by a combined mass,
temperature, and convection effect, as proposed.


>
>  If it does not come out until high temperatures (as occurs
>for Group VIII metals), then the criticism is irrelevant.
>
>  In fact, there are probably a distribution of compartments,
>and all have low capacitance.


Not if nanotubes or graphite sheets are involved.  I will agree that such a
storage mechanism is unlikely, but still the effort to check it out is
nominal.  After seeing the He trace go up linearly, as has been done, burn
a good sized sample of the catalyst in a closed bottle of O2 and check the
helium content.  The likelyhood of He storage in the catalyst in small
caompared to, say, Mizuno having a problem with Pin.


At 8:14 PM 6/22/99, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>At 03:39 PM 6/22/99 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>This also relates to the reason Mizuno should filter his power at the
>>experiment end.  Scott Little can stand on his head doing experiments, and
>>no amount of proof will be acceptable because it is difficult to prove a
>>negative.  If the real problem is with current spikes how can Little prove
>>it experimentally?  Mizuno can quickly and cheaply either determine that
>>fact, or eliminate it as a hypothesis.  Scott is in the role of replicator.
>>The burden of proof lies with Mizuno.
>>
>
>   Red herrings.
[snip]

Hmmm.. Oh! I see, red herring means threat to true belief?  Here I was all
hyped for some cream sauce.  8^)


>
>   Mizuno's data is reasonable, exhibits the tail end of the Optimal
>Operating Point, and some of Scott's data (run 4 examined so far)
>is consistent, but the trouble is that there are differences between
>the two types of experiments.
>
>     Mitchell Swartz


That may well, be, but it sounds like you are out on a limb by implying it
is absolutely certain there is no problem with Mizuno's Pin, or even that a
problem with Pin measurement is not the principle cause for Mizuno's ou
measurement.

Further, if there is ever a book of rules for good calorimetry of
electrolysis devices I think one of them should be to always filter, inside
the calorimeter, any power input to devices in the calorimeter.  It is only
common sense.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 19:10:37 1999
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
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At 05:56 PM 6/22/99 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:

>>  Excuse me.  But the discussion was about helium purportedly
>>bound, adsorbed, absorbed, or otherwise contained in shallow
>>(or other) traps.  That is not a catalytic effect.
>
>I didn't say or imply it was a catlytic effect.  Only that different
>catlysts produce differing effects in the Case cell.  The logical
>conclusion is that the structure of the individual catalysts may be
>different.  All carbon is not the same.


    OK.  but the evidence still should be supplied that this
material is anomalous, and so far it is the opposite.

 ---------------------------------------


>>  Either the purported retained helium comes out ---
>>or it doesnt.     If it comes out, then
>>their controls would have meassured it.
>
>No.  There is insufficient data to say that the helium is not veing
>scrubbed from a large reservoir in the carbon by a combined mass,
>temperature, and convection effect, as proposed.


   These experimenters did controls, and the mass, T, and
convections were those of the experimental setup, obviously.


 ---------------------------------------


>>  If it does not come out until high temperatures (as occurs
>>for Group VIII metals), then the criticism is irrelevant.
>>
>>  In fact, there are probably a distribution of compartments,
>>and all have low capacitance.
>
>
>Not if nanotubes or graphite sheets are involved.  I will agree that such a
>storage mechanism is unlikely, but still the effort to check it out is
>nominal.  After seeing the He trace go up linearly, as has been done, burn
>a good sized sample of the catalyst in a closed bottle of O2 and check the
>helium content.  The likelyhood of He storage in the catalyst in small
>caompared to, say, Mizuno having a problem with Pin.


  Not an unreasonable additional test.


 ---------------------------------------


>>>This also relates to the reason Mizuno should filter his power at the
>>>experiment end.  Scott Little can stand on his head doing experiments, and
>>>no amount of proof will be acceptable because it is difficult to prove a
>>>negative.  If the real problem is with current spikes how can Little prove
>>>it experimentally?  Mizuno can quickly and cheaply either determine that
>>>fact, or eliminate it as a hypothesis.  Scott is in the role of replicator.
>>>The burden of proof lies with Mizuno.
>>>
>>
>>   Red herrings.
>[snip]
>
>Hmmm.. Oh! I see, red herring means threat to true belief?  Here I was all
>hyped for some cream sauce.  8^)


    There are only measurements.  


 ---------------------------------------


>>   Mizuno's data is reasonable, exhibits the tail end of the Optimal
>>Operating Point, and some of Scott's data (run 4 examined so far)
>>is consistent, but the trouble is that there are differences between
>>the two types of experiments.
>
>
>That may well, be, but it sounds like you are out on a limb by implying it
>is absolutely certain there is no problem with Mizuno's Pin, or even that a
>problem with Pin measurement is not the principle cause for Mizuno's ou
>measurement.

  Didnt say that.  
  It just seems to be less relevant based upon the data.


 ---------------------------------------


>Further, if there is ever a book of rules for good calorimetry of
>electrolysis devices I think one of them should be to always filter, inside
>the calorimeter, any power input to devices in the calorimeter.  It is only
>common sense.

  Perhaps characterization of the power supply belongs outside of the
calorimeter, but this is a thought.

   Mitchell Swartz


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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 22:17:31 -0400 (EDT)
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	Dear Vo.,

	Brief note on building wiring and safety.

	a] Most US circuit breakers are supposed to sustain 87% of full
load, continuous... 87% of 15 AMPS is PLENTY to start a fire. 
	b] aluminum is SOFT... it displaces after time... this then
results in a poor [er] contact.. which can heat up.  The idea .. from the
industry... is you are supposed to periodically tighten the connection...
after several sets of this you push right through the conductor.
	c] aluminum should be used with an oxidization protection "goop"
... some people do not do this... or do it poorly.

	Opinion:  Use copper AND conductive goop for mains.

	Be careful.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 19:25:06 1999
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Subject: My letter in Science
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 22:17:59 -0000
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I understand that Science Magazine has published my letter in its May 21, 
1999 issue  in response to David Voss's very bad article on the patent 
office and COFE.  Here is what I was told would appear. I have not seen 
the printed letter yet.

Best, Gene Mallove


*****
     
Voss refers to our publication, Infinite Energy, as "a publication for 
cold fusion buffs." This pejorative language degrades the content of  
Infinite Energy, which has featured technical articles and commentary by 
Nobel laureate Julian Schwinger, physicist Robert H. Parmenter (who has 
co-authored cold fusion theory articles with Nobel laureate Willis  Lamb 
in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences), and scientists 
such as Edmund Storms and Tom Claytor of the Los Alamos National 
Laboratory and George Miley of the University of  Illinois (editor of the 
American Nuclear Society's peer-reviewed journal Fusion Technology, which 
features cold and hot fusion  articles.) Voss also comments that, "Garwin 
and others say the [cold fusion]  devices are unlikely to prove viable, 
either as energy sources or as systems for rendering radioactive waste 
harmless." It is clear that Garwin and others are simply ignoring data in 
favor of their theories  that these low energy nuclear reactions are 
impossible. Garwin's quoted assertions indicate a paradigm paralysis that 
is familiar to historians of science. Its remedy is a hard look at data, 
not uninformed opinion.
     Eugene F. Mallove
     Infinite Energy, Post Office Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816, USA. 
     E-mail: editor infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 19:53:10 1999
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
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Horace said:

<snip>

>I didn't say or imply it was a catalytic effect.  Only that different
>catalysts produce differing effects in the Case cell.  The logical
>conclusion is that the structure of the individual catalysts may be
>different.  All carbon is not the same.


And what Horace has totally neglected is that the distribution and structure
of the Pd surfaces on the carbonaceous substrate might also have something
to do with the differing results. He has become so fixated on the notion of
carbon absorption of helium that he is attributing differences in
performance to the carrier and not to the active material.

This is a studied neglect of all the other experimental evidence that Pd and
deuterium are the active materials in the production of excess heat and
helium, and a focus on what is probably irrelevant, generating a confusing
data stew.

As I have suggested in other posts, the very use of the work "catalyst" in
this context is misleading. The materials used in the Case cell are made and
marketed as "catalysts" and so function in chemical reactions. In the
present case, "catalyst" simply means "we don't know exactly what is going
on" that produces excess heat and He where no He was in the first place.

Regards, Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 20:53:32 1999
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June 22, 1999

Vortex,

The June 19, 1999 issue of Science, Compass- Letters,  vol. 284, no. 5422
pages1929-1932 contains a small selection of strong protest letters  received
in response to the May 21, 1999 article by David Voss. Voss termed his
article "The New Physics" on patents issued by the Patent Office by allegedly
less than qualified examiners.

A victim in the article was Thomas Vallone, who initiated the Conference On
Future Energy (COFE) and dumped on by Park of the APS.

The respondents' protest letters published were: Thomas Valone (Patent
Office), Eugene F. Mallove (Infinite Energy), Paul LaViolette (Starburst
Foundation), and John E. Haarland (of Mindsong).
Two other letters supportive of the Voss article by L. Kaufmann, and John C.
LaRosa followed.

Perhaps a visit to the Science website may reveal the contents of the letters
published. Also the aMay 21, 1999 should be stored in their archival records.

-AK-

Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

> I understand that Science Magazine has published my letter in its May 21,
> 1999 issue  in response to David Voss's very bad article on the patent
> office and COFE.  Here is what I was told would appear. I have not seen
> the printed letter yet.
>
> Best, Gene Mallove
>
> *****
>
> Voss refers to our publication, Infinite Energy, as "a publication for
> cold fusion buffs." This pejorative language degrades the content of
> Infinite Energy, which has featured technical articles and commentary by
> Nobel laureate Julian Schwinger, physicist Robert H. Parmenter (who has
> co-authored cold fusion theory articles with Nobel laureate Willis  Lamb
> in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences), and scientists
> such as Edmund Storms and Tom Claytor of the Los Alamos National
> Laboratory and George Miley of the University of  Illinois (editor of the
> American Nuclear Society's peer-reviewed journal Fusion Technology, which
> features cold and hot fusion  articles.) Voss also comments that, "Garwin
> and others say the [cold fusion]  devices are unlikely to prove viable,
> either as energy sources or as systems for rendering radioactive waste
> harmless." It is clear that Garwin and others are simply ignoring data in
> favor of their theories  that these low energy nuclear reactions are
> impossible. Garwin's quoted assertions indicate a paradigm paralysis that
> is familiar to historians of science. Its remedy is a hard look at data,
> not uninformed opinion.
>      Eugene F. Mallove
>      Infinite Energy, Post Office Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816, USA.
>      E-mail: editor infinite-energy.com



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 21:11:58 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
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Rick wrote:
>Mike -
>
>   >  reports of people catching light in the middle of
>   >  dance floors accompanied by an orchestra and blue
>   >  flashing lights
>
>Dancing, motion, static build-up.
>
>Flatulence, static discharge, ignition.

Many factory processed foods contain hydrogenated cooking oils these days,
as well.  Pizza doughs for example, have additives that are meant to
increase the temperature locally by chemical means to give them certain
asthetic qualities.  If they are not fully cooked, these hydrogen enriched
oils can end up storing in your bodyfat until you sweat them out.

Knuke

 
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 21:12:00 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: SHC experiment
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Jed wrote:
>My guess is that the phonomenon is real and it has multiple causes. The
>wicking effect seems to explain some instances, but not others. There is no
>question that bodies are a potent source of fuel, once you get around the
>water problem. The Egyptian railroads used to fire their steam locomotives
>with mummies. Those were politically incorrect times . . .
>
>- Jed

That's pretty gross, Jed, but with the buying up of all the independant
funeral parlors by large corporations that I've seen lately, it wouldn't
surprise me if Cogeneration Crematoriums became fashionable in a few years.
If Onkel Adolf had just thought of this one, we might all be speaking
Bayerish today.

Nuthin' says lovin', like somethin' from the oven, and Pillsbury says it
best. 8^)

Pillsbury uses a lot of that hydrogenated cooking oil for you dough
afficianados.  I wonder if they are buying up funeral parlors, too.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 21:12:02 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: SHC experiment
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>
>I guess you could do it in Tennessee. From what I have heard, it is now
>legal to eat anything road kill. Why shouldn't it be legal to conduct a
>science experiment on it? If anyone asks, just tell them you were cooking
>it (the animal in question) before eating it...;)
>
>--Kyle

In Alaska, you can get on a state delivery list, and have roadkill delivered
to your door.  It usually comes naturally frozen most of the year.  Aged
caribou is wonderful stuff, and makes a rich goulash as well.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 21:12:10 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:16:02 -0400
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Horace wrote:
>
>The Case effect is very specific to the catalyst chosen.  You can not make
>such sweeping generalities about carbon in general, because carbon comes in
>many molecular and macro forms.  Nor can you necessarily infer anything
>about the use of carbon at -77 C when the subject phenonmena is known to be
>sensitive to temperature changes in the Case cell operating range.  Most
>important, it is not the critics who must prove anything, it is the
>experiment that must prove something.  Laid to rest?  If saying only made
>it so.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner 

Trace amounts of U in the carbon will over time produce daughter products,
Radium, and radon being the last of the normal chain.  An accelerated decay
of Radon may produce the He under the Case protocol.  This is not meant to
be a divide and conquer type of debunking statement, but rather a statement
of possible cause.  Indeed, if say, a 2 ppb trace of U were to be found in
the successful Case catalysts, I could easily live with one heating my
house.  The nanotube structure may also play a role in the successful
reaction pathway/mechanism.  I'm not suggesting any magic, just a possible
cause and effect relationship for the data that is not that far fetched.  It
should be something that is considered and looked for in future examinations.

Knuke

          
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 22 21:12:19 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: SHC experiment
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>I wrote:
>
>>You are missing blood and many chemicals.
>
>I meant to add "gases" which may be especially important to trigger the
>reaction.  Whatever else SHC is, I suppose it must be a gas flame in the
>early stages. This is the one well-known, common form of HC. As Rick
>Monteverde pointed out, static buildup plus flatulence is a likely trigger.
>How it keeps burning after that I couldn't guess.
>
>- Jed

Aluminum and magnesium burn pretty hot.  Hot enough that once they started,
the water would not put them out.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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Hey Remi!

Got the return e-mail from the editor, and he said that the issue was no
longer in print, but that he could photo copy it for you for 10 bueno bucks.
The issue is the March/April 1997 edition and the article is on pages 52 -
53.  Then I decided to take one more look through the stacks of crap that I
drug down here from Seattle, and the magazine was right on top of one of
them.  After re-reading this article and looking at the photos, you will
probably want to get a copy of your own.  Normally, this magazine shows
large, brilliant B&W close-up photo's of the workpieces being discussed.
They have excellent photographers.  In this article, however, they were
asked to keep the lens a few feet further back than normal, because of a
recently filed patent application.  The photos aren't bad, they just are not
as detailed as I am used to for this magazine.  I'll run a patent check on
this, and see what turns up.  It may have been granted by now.  The main
reason you might want a copy of your own, is to see the young woman,
herself.  She is quite attractive, has her own machine shop, and a pretty
incredible track record for turning out prize winning ideas.  If you and I
were 25 years younger, Remi, we'd be fighting over her, I'm sure. :^)

Anyway, here is some selected text from the article:

----------------------
A Bit of Inspiration

Machining Skills Pay Off

by William H. Ganoe

One of the projects that stood out at the 1996 International Science and
Engineering Fair (ISEF) was an innovative motor designed and built by a
sophomore at Tuscon, Arizona's Sabino High School - built in her family's
machine shop.  Using metalworking skills she learned from her father and
grandfather, along with help and encouragement from them and several others,
Brooke Feldman conceived, designed, and built a motor that resulted in an
impressive array of science fair awards.

The basis for her motor is a temperature difference that straddles the Curie
point of a selected material. [The Curie point is that temperature at which
a material switches from ferromagnetic (strongly magnetic) behavior to
paramagnetic (weakly magnetic) behavior.  In this case the material is
Gadolinium with a Curie point of around 65F.  The Curie point of Iron is
around 1,418F, and this phenomenon is the basis fro checking temperature
with a magnet during heat treatment.]  Details of the motor will be a little
vague since a patent application has been filed.

Brooke's science fair exhibit include a working model of the motor, a
proof-of-concept prototype, along with background material and performance
data.  Brooke just barely got the exhibit ready by the deadline for the
Southern Arizona Regional Science and Engineering Fair [SARSEF] in Tuscon
March 1996, but meeting that deadline paid off with a first place regional
science fair award which included a slot at the ISEF in May 1996 in Tuscon.
(ISEF-affiliated regional science fairs can select a maximum of two
individuals and one team project to compete at the ISEF each year.)  In
addition to that award, she won first place awards from the Audubon Society,
the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, the Junior Engineer
Technical Society, Women in Science, Women in Science and Engineering, the
US Army, and the US Navy/Marine Corps.

A couple of months later at the ISEF in Tuscon, in competition with almost
1,100 other students from over 40 countries around the world and all 50
states, Brooke won several more first place awards including a trip for her
and her teacher to a NASA center of her choice, $750 from the US Department
of Energy, about $1,200 of ccompany stock from United Technologies
Corporation, an $8,000 scholarship from the US Navy, and a second-place
$2,500 scholarship from the Intel Corporation. [Proof that a disciplined
application of mental effort and machining skills really pay off.]

However, this wasn't Brooke's first taste of international competition and
recognition.  Two years ago, as a freshman, she investigated the properties
of different heat-treatments applied to knife blades made of different steel
alloys.  With that study, she won top honors at the 1995 SARSEF, and went on
to the 1995 ISEF in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.  Relatively few freshman
compete at the ISEF to begin with, and fewer still win prizes, but Brooke
won first place in engineering and received $2,500 and a solid gold medal
from the US Army and $400 from NACE International (formerly the National
Association of Corrosion Engineers.)

---------------------
There is more about how she struggled with various design problems, and so
forth, but you can get the full article if you want.  All I can say is "Way
To Go, Brooke!".  She makes us look like a bunch of crazy old farts! ;)

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 00:37:50 1999
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At 12:16 AM 6/23/99, Michael T Huffman wrote:

>In Alaska, you can get on a state delivery list, and have roadkill delivered
>to your door.  It usually comes naturally frozen most of the year.  Aged
>caribou is wonderful stuff, and makes a rich goulash as well.
>
>Knuke

Actually the road kill typically goes to nonprofit organizations.
Volunteers on the list are called by the troopers to come and dress the
animals, which are usually moose, and take them to the donation site.  To
get on the list you have to have enough volunteers to cover 24 hours a day
until your number comes up.  I think the hides go to State Fish and Game.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 00:54:01 1999
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Cheers Mike,

I'll look through the transcript again and see if I should buy the
photocopy. Was there any mention of a source and sink a la Carnot cycle?

Hey, if I was 25 years younger, I'd be a toddler. So she's fair game
right!?
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 01:06:10 1999
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At 10:54 PM 6/22/99, Mike Carrell wrote:

>And what Horace has totally neglected is that the distribution and structure
>of the Pd surfaces on the carbonaceous substrate might also have something
>to do with the differing results.

Baloney!   Mmmm... baaaloney.


>He has become so fixated on the notion of
>carbon absorption of helium that he is attributing differences in
>performance to the carrier and not to the active material.


Any fool can merely accept that the experiment is doing fusion to
manufacture the helium.  Not every fool came up with an alternative
hypothesis. [No good deed goes unpunished!]  It has been shown that the PD
can not be the source of He.  The logical place to look for an alternative
hypothesis for a source of helium is the carbon.


>
>This is a studied neglect of all the other experimental evidence that Pd and
>deuterium are the active materials in the production of excess heat and
>helium, and a focus on what is probably irrelevant, generating a confusing
>data stew.


No, the data stew is created by mixing together a bunch of unrelated
experiments and ASSUMING they all represent the same anomalous effect.
Everything that produces unexplained energy is not necessarily cold fusion.
Might be, but might be not.  The Case cell is way out in left field as CF
devices go in that it operates in nearly ambient conditions and there is no
energy input required to make it work.  At least the Arrata cell operates
at very high pressure, though that requires no energy input either, except
for the initial pressurizing.  If you are going to go way out on a limb and
declare it proof of CF, you really need to be SURE you have proof.
Otherwise, it just looks like evidence in favor of CF.


>
>As I have suggested in other posts, the very use of the work "catalyst" in
>this context is misleading.


How would you suggest I refer to the G75-E catalyst from United Catalyst
that Case and Little used, and the other hydrogenation catalysts that were
used?  How about calling them gravies?


>The materials used in the Case cell are made and
>marketed as "catalysts" and so function in chemical reactions. In the
>present case, "catalyst" simply means "we don't know exactly what is going
>on" that produces excess heat and He where no He was in the first place.


No, you ASSUME there is He where no He was in the first place, which is
different from measuring the He there in the first place, or even last
place.  It is possibly not even too late to burn the left over catalyst
from the successful run(s) to check it out.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 04:13:10 1999
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June 23, 1999

Vortex,

I haven't followed closely all the postings on the speculation by Murray
et al that perhaps the detected helium beyond background in the Case and
Case type cells were  present in the carbon substrate of the Pd catalyst
powder used.
Fair speculation but not substantiated. And I do not believe it remains
to be substantiated.

In the George/McKubre (they had orally agreed to share authorship at one
time) Case replication experiment and in the Case experiment itself,
there were blank cells run through the experiments identitical to the
active cells except for the deuterium. No increase in helium beyond
starting background.
In the George/McKubre replication, the helium background in the cells
started way below atmospheric background. The blank cell's He with the
catalyst in it remained static below  normal background. The active
cell's He built up to and beyond backgrond. This is displayed in Russ's
He graph.
Now in Arata's case, there were no carbon involved in detecting helium
production in his DS cathodes..
Also, there were no carbon involved when an EPRI funded sonofusion
experiments (Stringham/George) were conducted at SRI with detection of
helium pockets in metallic foils.
Also Arata successfully replicated (found heat and helium) the
sonofusion experiment with the slightly modified (he broke it)
sonofusion Mark 5 cell provided by Russ George. No carbon there.

So where is the "beef"? --- in the bull ----. : )

I remain open to be shown otherwise.

-AK-

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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Knuke,

You wrote:
> Trace amounts of U in the carbon will over time produce daughter products,
> Radium, and radon being the last of the normal chain.  An
> accelerated decay
> of Radon may produce the He under the Case protocol.  This is not meant to
> be a divide and conquer type of debunking statement, but rather a
> statement
> of possible cause.  Indeed, if say, a 2 ppb trace of U were to be found in
> the successful Case catalysts, I could easily live with one heating my
> house.  The nanotube structure may also play a role in the successful
> reaction pathway/mechanism.  I'm not suggesting any magic, just a possible
> cause and effect relationship for the data that is not that far
> fetched.  It
> should be something that is considered and looked for in future
> examinations.

Well, fine, but how do you explain the lack of helium detected in the
control cell with deuterium and catalyst?  From what I see, this criticism
alleges that D2, because it is close to the mass of helium, nudges trapped
helium from the catalyst.  To me, this is a real stretch and if it is
expected to be taken seriously, it must have some substantiation,
particularly in view of the fact that McKubre has considered all such
possible sources of stored helium.  The levels at which helium can be stored
in carbon are temperature dependent, as Rich Murray has provided data that
leads me to conclude that such levels at room temperature are negligable.  I
don't wish to discourage anyone from following up on that lead if it does
anything to inform their thought process.

Osmosis will not build up levels of helium in the cell above atmospheric in
the most fanciful interpretation.  Osmosis works on concentration gradient.
If that were the mechanism, it would not only have to be explained why it
did not happen in the control cell, but also why it worked *against* the
concentration gradient.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

"It is scientific only to say what's more likely and less likely and not to
be proving all the time possible and impossible."
Richard Feynman, 1964

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 06:43:22 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC:  Ohmori's Development of the Cell?
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Tom Stolper writes:

	Jed, you sound positively gleeful.

No, I am cautiously optimistic.


	Ohmori's plasma  electrolysis cell does look like the killer
	demo of excess heat that you've  been searching for.

Unfortunately no. Not at this stage. It is too difficult to replicate, as
Scott Little and Ed Wall shown. Perhaps if I write a step-by-step cookbook
recipe it will be easier.


	So what were its origins?  Did it appear to Ohmori in a dream?

I do not know. That is an interesting question. The Russians have been
doing CF experiments with glow discharge in gas for many years.
Descriptions of electrolytic glow discharge have been in the back pages of
the literature for 45 years.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 07:46:39 1999
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Hi Mike,
I went to the British Library and searched for Feldman, Brooke; Feldman
and could find anything. Will try variants, Feldeman, Feldmann. If this
was presented in 1996, and we certainly know disclosed in March 1997, it
should be a 'submarine patent' - one has to publish after 18 months.

Anyway, for those with web access, here's what the British Library gave
me:

British Library's links: www.bl.uk/services/stb/etalmenu.html
Free electronic bulletin board: www.luna.co.uk/~patmg/

Major patent offices
EPO: www.european-patent-office.org
Japan: www.jpo-miti.go.jp
UK: www.patent.gov.uk
US: www.uspto.gov
WIPO: www.wipo.org

Major hosts/ patent information providers
CAS: http://info.cas.org
Derwent: www.derwent.co.uk
ISTA(Jap pats): www.intlscience.com
The Dialog Corp: www.dialog.com/info/home
MicroPatent: www.micropat.com
Questel.orbit: www.questel.fr/english/index.html
STN International: www.fiz-Karlsruhe.de/stn.html

Free Databases
Esp cenet (British gateway to the pilot databases for EPO member states
and worldwide information, under development; include much dating from
1970s) http://dips.patent.gov.uk

Intellectual Property Network (Databases for US from 1974, EP A from 1970,
EP B from 1980, WO from 1997; images of many)
http://patent.womplex.ibm.com

Patent Status Information Service (Current status of GB and EP(UK) patent
applications from 1978, only searchable by number)
www.patent.gov.uk/dbservices/pcheck.html

US Patents at USPTO (US abstracts and full-text searching, 1976-)
www.uspto.gov/patft

PCT database (PCT abstracts, January 1997-)
http:/pctgazette.wipo.int

May 1999


The new British Library seems okay. I guess the building will grow on one.
I like the kind of large forum/quadrangle in the middle set back from the
traffic, it's nice and quiet. The information services are becoming more
electronic.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 09:20:07 1999
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To all,

After watching the debate on the source of helium in the Case cell for
several days, I would like to add my two cents.

Four sources of helium have been suggested to which I apply an estimated
probability of the idea being a correct with the reasons for this
estimation given.

1. Helium results from radioactive decay.
Probability =0.0001%
Reason: Direct measurement shows uranium is absent in typical samples.
A small probability is acknowledged because the uranium might be located
in only the few lumps of the catalyst which happened to be used in the
experiments.

2. Helium results from nuclear events caused by Cosmic rays.
Probability = 0.01%
Reason: Interaction of the low Cosmic ray background is too small.  A
small probability is acknowledged because the sample might have been
exposed to an intense cosmic shower or abnormal atom bomb fallout.

3. Helium results from absorbed helium within the carbon or palladium.
Probability = 0.1%
Reason: There is no direct evidence that carbon or palladium can absorb
helium at room temperature based on general experience.  A small
probability is acknowledged because the carbon used in the successful
experiments might be different from all other carbon examined over many
years of experience.

4. Enhanced helium diffusion into cell.
Probability - 0%
Reason: Violates thermodynamic principles.

Given the low probability of success in finding an explanation by
exploring these suggestions, a prudent and cash-poor experimenter would
reasonably explore many other ideas first.   Fortunately, the people
making and addressing these suggestions are not limited by this
restraint.  However,   if you all would like to make a more useful
contribution, I suggest you concentrate on the following questions.

1. How does the chemical energy of a small particle increase as size is
reduced?  What is the mechanism and how can this phenomenon be
quantified?

2. How can the surface of palladium powder be rendered free of absorbed
impurities.  What are the binding energies of absorbed oxygen, carbon
and sulfur on palladium?

3. Why are only a few catalysts found to be active?  What is the main
difference between such catalysts in terms of the form of the palladium?

4. Why does the effect stop working at temperatures above about 250°C?
(One would think that the higher the temperature the faster the absorbed
He would be removed.)

5. Why is a temperature gradient within the cell apparently beneficial
for anomalous energy production?

Many more questions need answers, but this list should keep people busy
for awhile.

Ed Storms



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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Fuel cells featured in Scientific American
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The July 1999 issue of Scientific American features a Special Report on
fuel cells, with three articles: "The Electrochemical Engine for Vehicles,"
by A. John Appleby, "The Powerplant in Your Basement," by Alan C. Lloyd,
and "Replacing the Battery in Portable Electronics," by Christopher K. Dyer. 

Fuel cells are similar to cold fusion cells in many ways. They are both
electrochemical energy devices that are cleaner and more efficient than
conventional internal combustion engines and combustion electric
generators. Fuel cells and CF cells have many problems in common,
especially with materials, construction, contamination, catalysts, and
temperature. A major issue with fuel cells is the cost and availability of
materials like platinum and palladium versus the economics and scale of the
energy market. Appleby says, "if two million cars with 50-kilowatt
electrochemical engines were made every year -- about five percent of
current auto production -- they would use 50 metric tons of platinum, about
one-third of the current global production of the metal." In other words,
even if the fuel were free, you could not build enough engines with present
supplies of platinum. Limited supplies of platinum and palladium may be a
problem with cold fusion too, unless nickel-based CF becomes practical. New
types of alkaline fuel cells require only one-fifth as much platinum; thin
film palladium cold fusion cells might require only a fraction of the
precious metal today's prototypes require. With cold fusion, the problem of
limited supplies of precious metals might be solved with improved,
energy-intense recycling, such as the technique pioneered at Molten Metals
Technology, Inc. Extraction technologies that take advantage of zero-cost
energy may also increase supplies. For example, platinum and palladium
might be extracted from seawater or low concentrate ores. Fuel cells will
not lower the overall cost of energy much (except by reducing consumption
somewhat), so they will not make new, energy-intense industries like
extracting metals from seawater economical.

Potential applications for fuel cells are exactly like those of cold
fusion. There is no particular economy of size with fuel cells. A large,
centralized megawatt-scale fuel cell power plant is no more efficient or
less polluting than 1,000 decentralized individual kilowatt scale home
generators. In fact, a centralized plant would probably be less efficient
because of transmission losses (8% per 500 miles). It would probably be
more expensive too, taking into account cost of the power distribution
infrastructure. As the article points out, home generators are less
vulnerable to power outages caused by weather.

Anyone interested in CF should read these articles carefully. They describe
how difficult research and development is. Fuel cells remained a laboratory
curiosity for nearly a century, despite intense efforts. We hope cold
fusion does not meet the same fate.

Obviously, there is no mention of CF in these articles because the
Scientific American passionately opposes the subject. There is one
connection however. Appleby, an electrochemist at Texas A&M University,
reported success in cold fusion experiments in 1989. He has not discussed
the work since then, but he never retracted and he did not join the crowd
of professors who tried to ostracize Bockris.

A paragraph in the last article pertains to the discussion here about
helium in carbon:

	Recently Terry Baker of Northeastern University announced a form
	of carbon called graphite nanofibers that boasts almost
	unbelievable capacity: one gram of the material is reportedly
	able to deliver 10 liters of hydrogen. Such incredible energy
	density (equivalent to about 16,000 watt-hours per kilogram)
	would make other materials pale in comparison. In theory, just
	half a liter of this incredible substance could power a 20-watt
	laptop computer continuously for more than a month!

	Although this work needs to be more widely reproduced . . .

That comes to 57.6 megajoules per kilogram, which is considerably better
energy density than gasoline. It is interesting that the Scientific
American is willing to report this preliminary, not yet replicated
breakthrough.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 10:04:08 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: Case & Arata
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At 4:18 AM 6/23/99, Akira Kawasaki wrote:
>June 23, 1999
>
>Vortex,
>
>I haven't followed closely all the postings on the speculation by Murray
>et al that perhaps the detected helium beyond background in the Case and
>Case type cells were  present in the carbon substrate of the Pd catalyst
>powder used.

Actually I am the culprit.  Rich Murray's theory was based on the possible
presence of alpha emitters in the carbon.


At 8:17 AM 6/23/99, Ed Wall wrote:

>
>Well, fine, but how do you explain the lack of helium detected in the
>control cell with deuterium and catalyst?  From what I see, this criticism
>alleges that D2, because it is close to the mass of helium, nudges trapped
>helium from the catalyst.


True, but that is only one part of the hypothesis.  Another part is the
effect of increased turbulence in D2 cells due to the formation of
convection cells.  It is knonw that D2 and H2 act differently and the
difference depends on cell temperature.  The differences may also be
related to water in the carbon as well.


>To me, this is a real stretch and if it is
>expected to be taken seriously, it must have some substantiation,
>particularly in view of the fact that McKubre has considered all such
>possible sources of stored helium.  The levels at which helium can be stored
>in carbon are temperature dependent,

True, but what is the relationship for the various forms of carbon?  All
carbon is not alike.


>as Rich Murray has provided data that
>leads me to conclude that such levels at room temperature are negligable.

Such faith!

> I
>don't wish to discourage anyone from following up on that lead if it does
>anything to inform their thought process.
>
>Osmosis will not build up levels of helium in the cell above atmospheric in
>the most fanciful interpretation.  Osmosis works on concentration gradient.
>If that were the mechanism, it would not only have to be explained why it
>did not happen in the control cell, but also why it worked *against* the
>concentration gradient.


The reason is that the atomic radius of helium is 0.49 angstroms. Hydrogen
is 0.79 angstroms, plus it sticks to the carbon more tenaciously.  Oxygen
and nitrogen also have larger radii, at 0.65 and 0.74 angstoms.  The radii
are smaller in molecular form, but then there are two atoms in tandom.
Nanontubes, as well as carbon sheet separations come in various sizes.  The
size of the particle can be significant in the parcentage of helium
absorbed if the space size is small.  It is known that nanontubes can store
vast amounts of hydrogen.  It is not unreasonable then that carbon, in some
form, may therfore be able to store large amounts of helium as well.

>
>Ed Wall
>
>New Energy Research Laboratory
>http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
>Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
>(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975
>
>"It is scientific only to say what's more likely and less likely and not to
>be proving all the time possible and impossible."
>Richard Feynman, 1964


Excuses, excuses.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 10:04:20 1999
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Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:05:32 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Parable of the polar bear
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Interview, 6/23/94

True believer(TB):  I have a polar bear in my basement.  Will you do an
article on it?

Skeptic reporter(SR): Why do you think you have a polar bear in your basement?

TB: There is noise in the basement.

SR: Why do you think the noise is from a polar bear?

TB: Because houses in Canada that look like this house have had polar bears
in them at times.

SR: But this is not Canada, its Bermuda.

TB: But the house is nearly identical.

SR: Sounds to me like it might be your air conditioner.

TB: I'd like to see you prove that!

TB: It wasn't an air conditioner in Canada.

SR: They don't use central air conditioners in Northern Canada.

TB: No, but they have furnaces.

SR: Why don't you just open the door and find out?

TB: I don't need to, I know it is a polar bear.  All the signs are there.
Can't you hear the noise?

SR: It shouldn't be much trouble to just open the door and find out.

TB: Why don't you just buy a similar house and wait for the noise and then
you can have your own polar bear.

SR: I have a similar house, but I have never seen a polar bear in the
basement.  Why don't you just open the door and find out.

TB: Your house must not be the same then.

SR: Why don't you just open the door?

TB: You skeptics are all alike!  Get out of my house!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 10:33:47 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Murray: Case cell He artifact  6.14.99
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At 10:14 AM 6/23/99, Edmund Storms wrote:
[snip]
>3. Helium results from absorbed helium within the carbon or palladium.
>Probability = 0.1%
>Reason: There is no direct evidence that carbon or palladium can absorb
>helium at room temperature based on general experience.  A small
>probability is acknowledged because the carbon used in the successful
>experiments might be different from all other carbon examined over many
>years of experience.

Given that an estimate by the general physics community of the existence of
cold fusion is likely less than 0.1 %, leaving the probability we don't
know what is happening at over 99%, the explanation that the helium is
stored in the carbon should thus be given equal weight to the main
hypothesis.  Checking the carbon for contamination is not a large
percentage incremental expense.


>
>1. How does the chemical energy of a small particle increase as size is
>reduced?  What is the mechanism and how can this phenomenon be
>quantified?


What is the evidence that the chemical energy of a small particle increases
as size is reduced?  Helium has small size and does not have a lot of
chemical energy.


>
>2. How can the surface of palladium powder be rendered free of absorbed
>impurities.  What are the binding energies of absorbed oxygen, carbon
>and sulfur on palladium?


Surface impurities, or lattice imperfections, may be the key, so removing
them may eliminate the effect.  True, starting with a clean slate would be
good, but then a replacement coating must be provided before the electrode
is exposed to the atmosphere or cell contents.

Standard vacuum degassing techniques, followed by electron ablation might
work?  Also, thin film deposition largely avoids the problem of surface
contamintion, but changes the problem into one of


>
>3. Why are only a few catalysts found to be active?  What is the main
>difference between such catalysts in terms of the form of the palladium?

In the case of the Case cell, it may be in their selective ability to hold
helium.


>
>4. Why does the effect stop working at temperatures above about 250°C?
>(One would think that the higher the temperature the faster the absorbed
>He would be removed.)


Is this question aimed at the Case cell, or CF in general?  Assuming the
Case cell, one possible reason is that the convection instabilities stop in
higher temperature runs due to more uniform and better insulation and
heating.  Also the difference between H2 and D2 is minimized at higer
temperatures, with respect to convection cel formation.


>
>5. Why is a temperature gradient within the cell apparently beneficial
>for anomalous energy production?


One prospective answer is because it creates the convection instability
required to purge the helium from the carbon.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 10:35:42 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Parable of the polar bear
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Interesting parable, but you should get real Horace. When we measure heat,
we are looking directly at the bear. Massive excess heat without
commensurate chemical ash is indisputable proof of CF, like having your arm
bit off by the bear in the basement.

I repeat what I said before about the SRI Case replication: If they confirm
the heat, and it is obviously way beyond any possible artifact caused by
swirling deuterium gas, then we can then forget all this unlikely B.S.
about trapped helium. And if they do not confirm heat the helium will not
mean anything, so why worry about it?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 10:45:21 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Murray: Case cell He artifact  6.14.99
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H. H. writes:

>Given that an estimate by the general physics community of the existence of
>cold fusion is likely less than 0.1 % . . .

That is not an estimate, it is a gut feeling without evidence or supporting
data. It is irrelivant. Storms gave reasons. The physics community has no
reason to doubt the existence of cold fusion.


>>4. Why does the effect stop working at temperatures above about 250°C?
>>(One would think that the higher the temperature the faster the absorbed
>>He would be removed.)
>
>
>Is this question aimed at the Case cell, or CF in general?  Assuming the
>Case cell, one possible reason is that the convection instabilities stop in
>higher temperature runs due to more uniform and better insulation and
>heating.

No, that can't be it. The heat and helium stop forever, presumably because
of the damage to the metal which can be seen with a microscope. They do not
revive when the temperature is lowered or the experiment is performed
again. Whereas when an undamaged cell is run again, they *do* revive.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 10:59:39 1999
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Subject: Re: Murray: Case cell He artifact  6.14.99
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At 13:41 6/23/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>The physics community has no
>reason to doubt the existence of cold fusion.

My first reaction was to pounce all over this statement but then it hit me.
 By golly, if we just ignore virtually everything that has been learned
about nuclear fusion to date, you're right!



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 11:06:33 1999
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Subject: Re: Murray: Case cell He artifact  6.14.99
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At 1:41 PM 6/23/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>H. H. writes:
>
>>Given that an estimate by the general physics community of the existence of
>>cold fusion is likely less than 0.1 % . . .
>
>That is not an estimate, it is a gut feeling without evidence or supporting
>data. It is irrelivant. Storms gave reasons. The physics community has no
>reason to doubt the existence of cold fusion.


You may have noticed that I also have given reasons ad nausium.  Ad nausium
because at least I am sick of it.  Storms gives no quatitative reasons for
his probability, nor did I.  How's this:  99.9 percent feel the probability
is zero. As far as opinions go it doesn't matter what the other 0.1%
thinks.  I agree with Storms to the extent that I think focusing on the 99
percent probability that NOBODY really knows what is going on is the thing
to do, for all parties.

It strikes me as inanely evident that the carbon should be checked for
helium content.  If it is contamination, where else could the source be?


>
>
>>>4. Why does the effect stop working at temperatures above about 250°C?
>>>(One would think that the higher the temperature the faster the absorbed
>>>He would be removed.)
>>
>>
>>Is this question aimed at the Case cell, or CF in general?  Assuming the
>>Case cell, one possible reason is that the convection instabilities stop in
>>higher temperature runs due to more uniform and better insulation and
>>heating.
>
>No, that can't be it. The heat and helium stop forever, presumably because
>of the damage to the metal which can be seen with a microscope. They do not
>revive when the temperature is lowered or the experiment is performed
>again. Whereas when an undamaged cell is run again, they *do* revive.


In the case of the helium question, a good hypothesis is that the form of
carbon changes, locking in the helium contamination.

In the case of heat generation, a similar answer, a change in the carbon is
involved, implying that the carbon is important to the excess heat.  It
could also be that a change in the carbon might be responsible for
eliminating a convection induced calorimetry artifact.  Using various
calorimeters eliminates this explantion, and that is being done, so I think
the excess heat is the stronger evidence at this time.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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>4. Enhanced helium diffusion into cell.
>Probability - 0%
>Reason: Violates thermodynamic principles.
>

I concur with the first 3, but disagree with this last assertion.

A)  We know that two dissimilar metals, when joined, result in a pumping
action for electrons.  This is basically a thermocouple, and it pumps
electrons around a loop and creates a voltage potential for electron
migration at the metal to metal junction.

B)  We know that osmotic membranes lead to a saline solution on one side of
a barrier attaining a different gravitational potential than the more pure
water on the other side of the barrier.

C)  We know that He and H and D all migrate through metals, some more
easily than others, and that the migration potential is a function of
temperature.  Some metals have a positive migration rate with temperature,
and some metals have a negative migration rate with increasing temperature.
 IOW, increasing the temp in some metals leads to decreasing rates of
diffusion for H.  

Now, the fact that the mass of D is double the mass of H means that the
mean kinetic velocity will be half as much.  KE, from the mean velocity, is
very reasonably an important factor in whether or not particles can punch
their way into and through a given metallic lattice structure.   And we
know for a fact that there is variation for the mass flow rates of H
through various metals with varying temperatures.  

In the Case cells, there is a temperature gradient across the thickness of
the metal walls of the cell.  And so the diffusion rate is also a function
of position in the wall.  

The chances that there is some process analogous to osmotic pressure
enhancement is        
                              NOT ZERO.

And below, you wonder why it is necessary that there be a temperature
gradient for the thing to work, and you wonder why increasing the
temperature can turn the thing off.  Both of those effects alter the
diffusion properties of metals to H, and I would assert that if I could
find a study of the diffusion rates of He, that those would vary with metal
type and metal temperature as well.

If diffusion through the metals is important, then you will be forced to
consider the relative rates of diffusion of H and of D and of He.  It is
entirely possible that H has the greatest diffusion potential, He has the
second largest diffusion potential, and D has the lowest diffusion
potential.  If so, then the results would be explained.

Note:  H has the highest mean kinetic velocity
         He has the smallest equivalent atomic diameter
         D has a slow velocity when compared to H, and an atomic diameter
larger than He

I think I got those right, but I didn't look them up so feel free to
correct me if I am wrong.  The point is, though, that this possibility
should not be discounted.

Also, in the video, they said that there is a "large" excess "temperature".
 That means nothing.  My question would be, what is the rate of excess
energy generation.  I haven't gathered that the calorimetry is jumping off
of the scales with kW of power being generated and clearly an ability to
drive a power generation scheme,...............yet.



>
>5. Why is a temperature gradient within the cell apparently beneficial
>for anomalous energy production?

Anomalous energy production, or anomalous He observations, or both?

rt

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 11:15:07 1999
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Subject: SHC and Re: Fuel cells featured in Scientific American
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Jed Said:

<snip>
>generators. Fuel cells and CF cells have many problems in common,
>especially with materials, construction, contamination, catalysts, and
>temperature. A major issue with fuel cells is the cost and availability of
>materials like platinum and palladium versus the economics and scale of the
>energy market. Appleby says, "if two million cars with 50-kilowatt
>electrochemical engines were made every year -- about five percent of
>current auto production -- they would use 50 metric tons of platinum, about
>one-third of the current global production of the metal." In other words,
>even if the fuel were free, you could not build enough engines with present
>supplies of platinum. Limited supplies of platinum and palladium may be a
>problem with cold fusion too, unless nickel-based CF becomes practical.

This is exactly why I am trying to relate CF to Spontaneous Human
Cumbustion.  If there are problems with existing materials used in CF then
take a lesson from Edison and look at other types of materials until you
find ones that meet a better criteria for CF (i.e. more abundant, cheaper,
etc.)   I'm sure that when Edison was looking for materials to use for a
filament in his light bulb that he started with materials that had
properties that fit with what he knew and then grasped at other materials
later.  The point is, I don't know if SHC is real or not but the evidence
seems strong.  So maybe we should look into the materials in the human body
and the conditions that are reported for SHC and see if any of that could be
substituted in the CF process.  If anything was found to be useful from the
chemical makeup of the body then it would definetly be more available.

It's funny how people in the CF camp get mad when others talk against their
ideas without knowing all the facts, yet they make jokes and ultimately end
up doing the same thing when someone else talks about a different way at
looking at CF!


>Potential applications for fuel cells are exactly like those of cold
>fusion. There is no particular economy of size with fuel cells. A large,
>centralized megawatt-scale fuel cell power plant is no more efficient or
>less polluting than 1,000 decentralized individual kilowatt scale home
>generators. In fact, a centralized plant would probably be less efficient
>because of transmission losses (8% per 500 miles). It would probably be
>more expensive too, taking into account cost of the power distribution
>infrastructure. As the article points out, home generators are less
>vulnerable to power outages caused by weather.



The benefit here would be to build one unit that people can come and see and
then more would be one board with CF.  If there is a problem replicating CF,
then 1,000 decentralized units would be harder to get going then one unit
that, once started, would be more proof to shut up all the disbelievers.


>Anyone interested in CF should read these articles carefully. They describe
>how difficult research and development is. Fuel cells remained a laboratory
>curiosity for nearly a century, despite intense efforts. We hope cold
>fusion does not meet the same fate.


It will if more people don't get involved.


Ed



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At 05:51 PM 6/18/1999 -0400, Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 wrote:
>> In fact, I think the shells are covered with a non-uranium outer metal
>> jacket.
>Yes, it is called a Sabot.
 
   Not quite.  The DU penetrator is covered with a thin coating to prevent
corrosion, but the sabot (French for shoe) is the part of the round which
fills the gun barrel behind the projectile/penetrator.  The sabot is
usually made of aluminium, and rather quickly drops off the penetrator.
The full designation for the DU rounds is APFS(DU)DS if I remember right,
where the DS stands for discarding sabot.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 11:21:14 1999
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Subject: Re: Parable of the polar bear
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At 1:34 PM 6/23/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Interesting parable, but you should get real Horace. When we measure heat,
>we are looking directly at the bear.

Fusion is the bear.

> Massive excess heat without
>commensurate chemical ash is indisputable proof of CF, like having your arm
>bit off by the bear in the basement.


Excess heat is only the symptom, the noise in the basement.  The source of
the heat is not known.  Only the nuclear ash can prove the source is
nuclear fusion in origin.  The energy may not be from nuclear mass loss.
It will take a lot of work to get proof of energy source, and much more for
nuclcear fusion as the energy source, especially in light of a total lack
of ionizing radiation.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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At 06:50 PM 6/18/1999 -0500, John Logajan wrote:

>Interestingly there are (if memory serves me) a number of elements with
>rougly the same magnitude of density -- the increase in the heavy
>nuclear components is offset by the increase in the electron cloud size.
 
    Unfortunately, the only metals denser than DU are considerably more
expensive.  Besides, gold is fairly soft, and can you imagine the outcry if
the army was throwing gold at our enemies?  Osmium is denser, and some
alloys are pretty hard, but it is usually more expensive than gold.

    By the way, before the use of DU, the penetrators in sabot rounds were
made out of tungsten carbide, a substance used in drill bits and grinding
wheels.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
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Robert,

Thanks again for your experienced clarification.

Could you also clarify the term Gun Bunnies.  =8^)

Bill
briggs xlnsystems.com
webriggs concentric.net

>>> In fact, I think the shells are covered with a non-uranium outer metal
>>> jacket.
>>Yes, it is called a Sabot.
 
>   Not quite.  The DU penetrator is covered with a thin coating to prevent
>corrosion, but the sabot (French for shoe) is the part of the round which
>fills the gun barrel behind the projectile/penetrator.  The sabot is
>usually made of aluminium, and rather quickly drops off the penetrator.
>The full designation for the DU rounds is APFS(DU)DS if I remember right,
>where the DS stands for discarding sabot.

>                                       Robert I. Eachus

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Subject: Re: Murray: Case cell He artifact  6.14.99
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   At 09:33 AM 6/23/99 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>At 10:14 AM 6/23/99, Edmund Storms wrote:
>[snip]
>>3. Helium results from absorbed helium within the carbon or palladium.
>>Probability = 0.1%
>>Reason: There is no direct evidence that carbon or palladium can absorb
>>helium at room temperature based on general experience.  A small
>>probability is acknowledged because the carbon used in the successful
>>experiments might be different from all other carbon examined over many
>>years of experience.
>
>Given that an estimate by the general physics community of the existence of
>cold fusion is likely less than 0.1 %, leaving the probability we don't
>know what is happening at over 99%, the explanation that the helium is
>stored in the carbon should thus be given equal weight to the main
>hypothesis.  Checking the carbon for contamination is not a large
>percentage incremental expense.



   Actually, Edmund did refer to many samples of material science,
as did my posts.  Statistics are appropriate.
  In contrast, in the case to which Horace mentions, 
 probability does not apply because n only equals 1. 
 CF exists or it does not.  Statistics do not apply   ;-)X

   The rest of the arguments will be determined and argued
by mathematical analysis and trumped by observation.

    Mitchell Swartz

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At 10:21 AM 6/23/99 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>At 1:34 PM 6/23/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>>Interesting parable, but you should get real Horace. When we measure heat,
>>we are looking directly at the bear.
>
>Fusion is the bear.
>
>> Massive excess heat without
>>commensurate chemical ash is indisputable proof of CF, like having your arm
>>bit off by the bear in the basement.

  Jed is correct about the first part.
    [Not certain about the bear, though.]


 ===========================================

>Excess heat is only the symptom, the noise in the basement. 


  Nope. It is a sign of cold fusion -- not a symptom.  If there
is enough heat to make you feel "hot" that would be a symptom.
Signs you see and measure.  Symptoms you feel.

  And noise... it occurs in the lattice as the reactions
occur.   ;-)X


 ===========================================


> The source of the heat is not known. 

  Only true for the light water systems, although some
theories exist.

   For heavy water systems the source is known
     -- at two sites.

 ===========================================


> Only the nuclear ash can prove the source is
>nuclear fusion in origin.  The energy may not be from nuclear mass loss.

  True, but all the excess energy is from a net nuclear mass loss.


 ===========================================


>It will take a lot of work to get proof of energy source, and much more for
>nuclear fusion as the energy source, especially in light of a total lack
>of ionizing radiation.

   There is ionizing radiation; not much.  
   Most of the bremsstrahlung is in the infrared anyway.


     Mitchell Swartz


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Subject: Re: Murray: Case cell He artifact  6.14.99
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Scott Little writes:

>>The physics community has no
>>reason to doubt the existence of cold fusion.
>
>My first reaction was to pounce all over this statement but then it hit me.
> By golly, if we just ignore virtually everything that has been learned
>about nuclear fusion to date, you're right!

Well, I cannot judge advanced physics, but according to people like
Schwinger this is a myth. Furthermore, only a handful of nuclear fusion
experts ever claimed that CF is theoretically impossible. The rest went
along without thinking. The truth is that we do not know enough about
nuclear fusion or lattices to know what is likely or not likely in the
solid state. We know roughly as much about this as our ancestors in 1899
knew about DNA. Previous fusion research on other states of matter is
irrelivant, just as research in vacuum tubes had no bearing on transistors.
There was not theoretical reason to doubt CF, and no experimental data
either. Before 1989 no experiments were performed to look for heat,
tritium, helium or transmutations in hyperloaded metal hydrides. There was
no was experimental evidence pro or con. On the other hand there is a well
developled database and extensive experience for things like gas retention
in carbon. The database might be wrong, but it exists.

As McKubre said:

	Having seen the effect with my own eyes, the claims from a few that
	this is impossible, or inconsistent with all known laws of nuclear
	physics, these suggestions are in fact irrelevant. There is no
	theoretical objection to cold fusion, it's just unlikely given our
	experience with hot fusion. But it is not theoretically denied by
	anything that I knew then, or anything that I know now.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: Fuel cells featured in Scientific American
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[snip]

>
>A paragraph in the last article pertains to the discussion here about
>helium in carbon:
>
>	Recently Terry Baker of Northeastern University announced a form
>	of carbon called graphite nanofibers that boasts almost
>	unbelievable capacity: one gram of the material is reportedly
>	able to deliver 10 liters of hydrogen. Such incredible energy
>	density (equivalent to about 16,000 watt-hours per kilogram)
>	would make other materials pale in comparison. In theory, just
>	half a liter of this incredible substance could power a 20-watt
>	laptop computer continuously for more than a month!
>
>	Although this work needs to be more widely reproduced . . .
>
>That comes to 57.6 megajoules per kilogram, which is considerably better
>energy density than gasoline. It is interesting that the Scientific
>American is willing to report this preliminary, not yet replicated
>breakthrough.
>
>- Jed

***{It is also interesting to speculate about how much helium could be
absorbed into the above described variant of carbon, and about why, given
the above quote, anyone would consider Horace to be unreasonable for
suspecting that the catalyst in the Case cell might be the source of the
helium.

As for the mechanism, well, suppose that the slower moving molecules are
more likely to be caught up in the "net" which the carbon represents, and
hence tend to displace faster moving molecules from the carbon. In that
case, since helium is the lightest inert gas, the binding sites in the
carbon would be preferentially occupied by other inert gases such as neon,
argon, xenon, radon, etc., which are all heavier and, thus, move more
slowly at a given temperature. Result: (1) it would be possible to use a
carbon catalyst to scrub other inert gases out of helium, as is routinely
done in industry; and (2) D2 (at 4.029 amu) would displace He (at 4.004
amu), while H2 (at 2.016 amu) would not, thus accounting for the Case
result (providing only that the carbon contained entrained helium before it
was placed in the cell).

Frankly, this logic strikes me as far too compelling to ignore. It is so
compelling, in fact, that it must be specifically refuted, if fusion is to
be demonstrated in these experiments, and this statement applies whether
"cash poor" experimenters prefer to look elsewhere or not. How would that
be done? Simple: the experimenter, at the end of a helium producing run,
must burn (in pure oxygen) the specific carbon briquet that was used, and
measure the helium content of the resulting gases.

--Mitchell Jones}***

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Edward Kauffmann writes:

	This is exactly why I am trying to relate CF to Spontaneous
	Human Cumbustion.  If there are problems with existing materials
	used in CF then take a lesson from Edison and look at other
	types of materials until you find ones that meet a better
	criteria for CF (i.e. more abundant, cheaper, etc.)

This is not an original idea. Right from the start of CF, many people,
including Fleischmann, have been looking for cheaper, more abundant
materials. The problem with SHC is that it cannot be replicated in the
laboratory, and we know practically nothing about it, so we cannot derive
many lessons from it. Speculation about the mechanism for SHC does serve
any useful purpose. We would need to observe the phenomenon and examine the
physical reaction products before drawing any conclusions about it. Second
and third hand reports of the phenomenon are interesting to a natural
scientists, but useless to a chemist.


	The point is, I don't know if SHC is real or not but the
	evidence seems strong.  So maybe we should look into the
	materials in the human body and the conditions that are reported
	for SHC and see if any of that could be substituted in the CF
	process.

I am afraid there are far too many materials in the human body. I do not
think that science will finish cataloging them all before our species
becomes extinct. The ones involved in SHC may be limited to the sugar
compounds or perhaps the ketones that you smell on the breath of people
suffering from acute diabetes (which might explain the "burned sugar"
smell), but I'll bet there are thousands of them.

Also, it isn't as if CF scientists are casting around, wondering what to do
next. Many people have suggested wild and wooly side trips and excursions
to consider extremely unlikely hypotheses about things like magically
retained helium and invisible undetectable electric power spikes. I suppose
if we had 10,000 people working on CF it might be worth sparing a few to
look into these exceedingly unlikely hypotheses, but given the limited
manpower and the mountain of direct relevant & important work, I see no
point to it. As Ed Storms and I said, if we tried to answer every
"skeptical" objection, we would be permanently sidetracked and progress
would grind to a halt. At some point, you have to decide that massive
excess heat, tritium, helium and the rest of it forces a definite
conclusion: the effect is real, and there is no reason to consider
alternative hypotheses. From then on, the job is to enhance the effect and
make it happen on demand, not to check out every weird notion that other
people -- who are not doing the experiments -- may dream up. I sympathize
with the CF researchers on this. I stopped forwarding these weird ideas
many years ago. I would not pester NASA with the latest ideas from the Flat
Earth Society. Frankly, I think that people who do not believe in widely
replicated high sigma evidence should grow up, get a life, and stop
bothering the real scientists.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 12:21:55 1999
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Horace Heffner wrote:

  Given that an estimate by the general physics community of the existence of
  cold fusion is likely less than 0.1 %, leaving the probability we don't
  know what is happening at over 99%, the explanation that the helium is
  stored in the carbon should thus be given equal weight to the main
  hypothesis.  Checking the carbon for contamination is not a large
  percentage incremental expense.

Good point.  However, showing that helium is not coming from prosaic sources
in a Case
cell will do nothing to change the minds of the general physics community. The
question is
will it change your mind?  Does your mind have to be changed? Are you
interested in
learning more about the nuclear effect rather than finding ways to discount
the evidence? In
any case, some day someone will check the carbon for helium and this
discussion will be
irrelevant.

  What is the evidence that the chemical energy of a small particle increases
  as size is reduced?  Helium has small size and does not have a lot of
  chemical energy.

The surface energy of all substances is higher than the bulk energy.  As a
substance is
pulverized, the surface energy contributes a larger fraction to the total
energy.  As a result,
fine particles exhibit chemical and physical properties much different from
conventional material.  The study of nanoparticles is a well established field
of study. Of course, if the size is reduced to atoms, other factors come into
play.  I am not talking about atoms.

  Surface impurities, or lattice imperfections, may be the key, so removing
  them may eliminate the effect.  True, starting with a clean slate would be
  good, but then a replacement coating must be provided before the electrode
  is exposed to the atmosphere or cell contents.

The presence of absorbed impurities has been found to prevent pickup of
hydrogen.  Without hydrogen, the nuclear reaction would not occur.  A person
without any background
knowledge of what has been discovered in the field might speculate endlessly,
but for what
purpose?

  Standard vacuum degassing techniques, followed by electron ablation might
  work?  Also, thin film deposition largely avoids the problem of surface
  contamination, but changes the problem into one of

Yes, but we are talking about the properties of fine particles.  Although thin
films are useful, they have a different story.  Let's focus on one problem at
a time.

  >3. Why are only a few catalysts found to be active?  What is the main
  >difference between such catalysts in terms of the form of the palladium?

  In the case of the Case cell, it may be in their selective ability to hold
  helium.

And make heat.  This horse has been beat to death.  Why not try some other
explanations?
Perhaps it is worth  assuming, for the sake of argument, that the process is
nuclear.  Then
what?

  >4. Why does the effect stop working at temperatures above about 250°C?
  >(One would think that the higher the temperature the faster the absorbed
  >He would be removed.)

  Is this question aimed at the Case cell, or CF in general?  Assuming the
  Case cell, one possible reason is that the convection instabilities stop in
  higher temperature runs due to more uniform and better insulation and
  heating.  Also the difference between H2 and D2 is minimized at higher
  temperatures, with respect to convection cell formation.

See Jed's comment which is right on.  In addition, one would assume the
convection currents
would become larger at higher temperatures because of the potential for larger
temperature
gradients.  Also, you have not addressed why the helium release would not
continue and
become faster as temperature was increased.

  >5. Why is a temperature gradient within the cell apparently beneficial
  >for anomalous energy production?

  One prospective answer is because it creates the convection instability
  required to purge the helium from the carbon.

If you assume that the helium source is essentially infinite (If not, the loss
rate would not be linear), then a purge would not be required.  The He
concentration would build up in the local gas surrounding each helium site
until the loss rate achieved a steady-state.  A purging action would not start
the process but only change its rate.  Therefore, I would expect to see a
helium loss rate which varied from some basic minimum up to some maximum rate,
with much scatter in between these two extremes.  Clearly, this behavior is
not seen.

By contributing to this discussion, I do not intend to challenge the proposed
ideas or start a
course on basic physical processes.  The latter job can be done much better by
reading some
good texts. Instead, I would like some other possibilities to be considered,
if for no other
reason than this discussion is getting repetitious and is going no where.

Regards,

Ed Storms







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	To ALL Vo.,
	
	Opinion:

	If you have some system with a gas or fluid or plasma or
what-have-you .... and you put in 100 Arb Units of energy... and you get
back 120 Arb Units.... the it does NOT MATTER if you have nuclear ash.
	If the energy comes from some mechanism we do not know about
and-or understand ... or comes from something we DO "know" about ... but
have mis interpreted.... then it does not matter....

	To me.... If you get some useable energy... and the dollars costs
are low or lower... and it is reproducible and reasonably safe ... then I
would consider this a win situation.

	Commens please

	OR:

	Do we have some good terminology for 'alternative power
generation" ???

				JHS..


On Wed, 23 Jun 1999, Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 1:34 PM 6/23/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> >Interesting parable, but you should get real Horace. When we measure heat,
> >we are looking directly at the bear.
> 
> Fusion is the bear.
> 
> > Massive excess heat without
> >commensurate chemical ash is indisputable proof of CF, like having your arm
> >bit off by the bear in the basement.
> 
> 
> Excess heat is only the symptom, the noise in the basement.  The source of
> the heat is not known.  Only the nuclear ash can prove the source is
> nuclear fusion in origin.  The energy may not be from nuclear mass loss.
> It will take a lot of work to get proof of energy source, and much more for
> nuclcear fusion as the energy source, especially in light of a total lack
> of ionizing radiation.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 12:32:32 1999
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Subject: Re: SHC and Re: Fuel cells . . .
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Jed said:

>Earth Society. Frankly, I think that people who do not believe in widely
>replicated high sigma evidence should grow up, get a life, and stop
>bothering the real scientists.
>
>- Jed
>


Sounds like what other "real" scientists have said about CF.  First I was
making suggestions for discussion.  This is a discussion group.  Second, I
never said I don't believe but I would rather reserve my "faith" for Sunday
and see CF in action.  As I said in the previous email, more people like me
being able to see CF in action (since it's "widely replicatable") would
likely cause more to get involved and more money to be put into CF research.
I would think you would agree that would be a good thing for CF.  Then if
more people are involved and still there was no "cheap and available"
metals, etc. for CF, it would be easier to have some people looking in other
"less likely" areas for materials that will substiture.

By the way, can I make an appointment to come and see this "widely
replicated" thing called Cold Fusion?  If not then perhaps it's not as
stupid to look in other areas for "less likely" materials.

Ed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 12:33:00 1999
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No Scott, not everything needs to be ignored.  The present experience applies
very well to plasma and high-energy induced nuclear reactions.  Even neutron
induced reactions in solids are well understood and do not need to be
ignored.  However, the CF experience indicates that additional mechanisms
exist in solids.  These new mechanisms simply add to the already extensive
knowledge. They do not require anything to be ignored or rejected.  This idea
is apparently a subtle point which many physicists do not seem to understand.

Regards,

Ed Storms


Scott Little wrote:

> At 13:41 6/23/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> >The physics community has no
> >reason to doubt the existence of cold fusion.
>
> My first reaction was to pounce all over this statement but then it hit me.
>  By golly, if we just ignore virtually everything that has been learned
> about nuclear fusion to date, you're right!
>
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 12:36:00 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel cells featured in Scientific American
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

>***{It is also interesting to speculate about how much helium could be
>absorbed into the above described variant of carbon, and about why, given
>the above quote, anyone would consider Horace to be unreasonable for
>suspecting that the catalyst in the Case cell might be the source of the
>helium.

Yes, that is why I mentioned this. I do not think Horace is unreasonable,
but I doubt it is worth checking for this hypothesis. If McKubre
establishes that the excess heat is real, that will simultaneously prove it
is CF and disprove the trapped helium hypothesis, so I see not reason to
bother with any other test. If other people have time on their hands they
should first replicate the Case experiment and then burn the carbon.

Anyway, McKubre et al. will do it their way no matter what anyone thinks,
which is right and proper. It would not hurt to forward the suggestion I
guess, but no one should take it amiss if they ignore it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 12:53:00 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: For Remi - Found It!
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:56:00 -0400
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>Cheers Mike,
>
>I'll look through the transcript again and see if I should buy the
>photocopy. Was there any mention of a source and sink a la Carnot cycle?
>
>Hey, if I was 25 years younger, I'd be a toddler. So she's fair game
>right!?
>Remi.

You Dog!  I saw her first!  8^)  Yeah, there is a mention of a problem that
she had with finding an inexpensive Peltier device, and sinking the heat.
The requirements for one of the contests was that it run continuously for at
least fifteen hours, and they couldn't use water cooling for safety reasons.
I would have just given you my copy of the magazine, but I think it might be
a hot item, now. ;)

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 12:55:51 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: SHC and Re: Fuel cells . . .
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Edward Kauffmann writes:

	Sounds like what other "real" scientists have said about CF.

Since I clearly stated that I think SHC is a real phenomenon this comment
does not apply to me. I am not skeptical about SHC, but only about the
prospects of learning chemistry or physics from it.


	As I said in the previous email, more people like me being able
	to see CF in action (since it's "widely replicatable") . . .

It is not widely replicatable. We wish it wuz, but it ain't. It has *been
widely replicated* (not "-able"), but with great difficulty each time. I
think reports of SHC are also widespread, in many different places and
eras, so the SHC phonomenon is widely replicated you might say (except that
it happens in nature without human invervention), but that does not make it
replicatable.


	. . . would likely cause more to get involved and more money to
	be put into CF research.

Yes, many wealthy investors have told me that. If wishes were horses we
would all ride to market, but alas, I cannot make CF easier to replicate.
(While we at it, I wish I could make diamonds, Pentium IV processors, and
expensive medication easier to replicate.)


	By the way, can I make an appointment to come and see this
	"widely replicated" thing called Cold Fusion?

No, you can't. It doesn't happen on demand. As Bockris said, an expert
comes to the lab, waits a week to see it, and at 3 a.m. on the morning
after he leaves it starts up! It is a frustrating business. Still, it is a
lot easier than waiting around to see a Top Quark to show up on the screen
or waiting to see a person go up in flames spontaneously.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 13:37:39 1999
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Horace wrote:
>Actually the road kill typically goes to nonprofit organizations.
>Volunteers on the list are called by the troopers to come and dress the
>animals, which are usually moose, and take them to the donation site.  To
>get on the list you have to have enough volunteers to cover 24 hours a day
>until your number comes up.  I think the hides go to State Fish and Game.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

Hi Horace,

Yeah, I pretty much know the exact spot you're sitting in, and that is
pretty much the case there now.  Where I was, it was another world.  There
was no Fish and Game, no FAA, no Police, no toilets, no telephones, and if
there was a road, it was hard packed dirt no longer than a half a mile.  In
most of the villages that I was in, the people all had a foot long knife on
their leg, a rifle, and a couple of dogs.  Even the women and children.
They would change clothes maybe once a week.  They never really needed to
bathe, because they were almost always soaked and shivering.  They were
always pretty happy, too.  By the age of 14, almost every kid could handle a
32 foot fishing boat by themselves, and many were licensed to fly planes at 16.

The first time I had any roadkill up there was when we anchored up Polar
Bear outside one of these little places.  The owner, Jim Nagai, and Royer
flew back to Seattle to take care of some business, and left me to babysit
the crew.  When they left, they said don't let them off the boat until they
are ready to knife you. 8^)  They played cards for a couple of days, and
started to get edgey, a few minor fights broke out, and so I just cut them
all loose.  I was such a pushover in those days.  I had been up for two
days, and just needed to get some sleep.

I was asleep for maybe three hours, and I feel this warm hand pushing my
neck, and I hear this "Knooka, Knoook, wake up"  I didn't open my eyes, but
I knew it was Liebe, one of my old travelling partners.  I could tell she
was drunk, and she was talking in this short, clipped accent which told me
she had been drinking with the Indians.  She always did that, no matter
where in the world we were.  She says in this real serious voice "Knook,
ders a moos stuck in da garbeeg dees pose all."  You know the accent, right?
I'm really groggy, and heard what she said, but you know how it is when you
are only half awake.  So I open my eyes, and look down at her standing there
soaking wet in her rain coat, and she's got this real concerned look on her
face.  She says "Come on, Come on, QUICK!"

I crawled down out of my bunk, and followed her into the galley, and she
says with this funny voice, "Looka look! Ders a moos stuck in the garbeeg
dees pose all."  I look and sure enough, there is the back end of this huge
animal in the sink with its hooves very unceremoniously thrust straight up
into the air.  She grabs my arm in kind of a scared way, gets behind me,
pushes me a bit, and says  "You got to do some ting!"  I still wasn't sure I
wasn't dreaming, and it was pretty big.  It wasn't moving, but I was a bit
scared of it myself.  I thought it might still kick me in the head.  I went
over to it real slow, and saw that it wasn't actually stuck in the garbage
disposal, it was just the back third of some big dead animal sitting in the
sink.  About this time, the cook walks in - also drunk, and says real proud,
"I got us some ROADKILL!"  I thought what the heck is going on here?
Roadkill?  Where the heck am I?

The cook, Butch, was a six foot tall Texas guy that did two tours of duty in
Vietnam.  He was pretty cool about just about everything, and he goes over
and picks this big hairy drippy piece of animal up out of the sink like it
was nothing, and says "I traded it with one of the Indians for some ice
cream!  He just cut the thing into thirds with a saw-saw!  It's CARIBOU!"  I
knew by this time, I wasn't dreaming, and I had to get a grip on this
situation.  First off, ice cream was a real currency up there in the summer.
The Polar Bear was a floating freezer, and everybody knew we had loads of
ice cream, and if word got out that we were trading it, there would be line
of people with dead animals in tow wanting to trade.  Second, I didn't know
how safe it was for the crew to be eating the old carcass.  I looked at
Butch like I'm real hard, and growled, "Butch! Are you sure this thing is OK
to eat?"  He just laughed, and said "Don't worry about it, I've cooked this
stuff before, I know how to do it, and you're gonna love it."  He plopped
the thing back into the sink and staggered off to bed.  I left Liebe
standing there with her mouth open, and I went back to bed.

Butch aged it for four days, and then froze it hard (-45F) for a week.  We
feasted on that for several meals, and it was excellent.  The whole five
years that I was up there, Horace, I had a blast.  It was miserably hard
work, under incredibly bad conditions, but I wouldn't trade those
experiences for anything.  I miss that place.  I heard about the Fish and
Game arrangement later from a friend that lived with the Indians for 15
years.  He prospected for gold, fished, carved some ivory, and made these
beautiful skiffs.  He never made much money up there, and even though there
was food on the hoof all over the place, he didn't like to hunt.  He got
himself on the roadkill list, and they would just bring it to him in a truck
and dump it outside his door.  He would dress it out himself.  He said he
got a couple mooses that way, and it saved him a lot of money.

Knuke

  
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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Ross Tessien wrote:

> >4. Enhanced helium diffusion into cell.
> >Probability - 0%
> >Reason: Violates thermodynamic principles.
> >
>
> I concur with the first 3, but disagree with this last assertion.

Well, that is progress!

>
> A)  We know that two dissimilar metals, when joined, result in a pumping
> action for electrons.  This is basically a thermocouple, and it pumps
> electrons around a loop and creates a voltage potential for electron
> migration at the metal to metal junction.

This effect is basically caused by the quantum behavior of electrons and does
not apply to atoms except in theory.

> B)  We know that osmotic membranes lead to a saline solution on one side of
> a barrier attaining a different gravitational potential than the more pure
> water on the other side of the barrier.

If this analogy is applied, the air (N2 +O2) would be the solvent and the He
would be the solute. Osmotic pressure works because the solvent can pass
through the barrier but the solute can not.  The He would accumulate on the
outside of the cell if this process was applied to these gases..

C)  We know that He and H and D all migrate through metals, some more

> easily than others, and that the migration potential is a function of
> temperature.  Some metals have a positive migration rate with temperature,
> and some metals have a negative migration rate with increasing temperature.
>  IOW, increasing the temp in some metals leads to decreasing rates of
> diffusion for H.

Now we are talking about simple diffusion.  Much study has shown that helium
diffuses only very slowly, if at all, in metals.  However, it can diffuse
through glass and some organic solids, but again only very slowly.  The rate
of diffusion depends on the nature of the chemical interaction as well as the
size. I know of no diffusion process that is endothermic, as would be the case
if it showed a reduction as temperature increased. Perhaps you could give me
some examples.

> Now, the fact that the mass of D is double the mass of H means that the
> mean kinetic velocity will be half as much.  KE, from the mean velocity, is
> very reasonably an important factor in whether or not particles can punch
> their way into and through a given metallic lattice structure.   And we
> know for a fact that there is variation for the mass flow rates of H
> through various metals with varying temperatures.

Yes, but this factor is only a small part of the process.  The difference in
chemistry between He and D2 totally overwhelms any other consideration.

> In the Case cells, there is a temperature gradient across the thickness of
> the metal walls of the cell.  And so the diffusion rate is also a function
> of position in the wall.
>
> The chances that there is some process analogous to osmotic pressure
> enhancement is
>                               NOT ZERO.

The chance also exists that no process exists which is analogous to osmotic
pressure.  In any case, an investigation of this possibility is a significant
study in its own right.  Perhaps you would want to spend the millions of
dollars and years of time needed to answer this question.  The question as to
whether this process applies to the Case cell can be answered simply by noting
the behavior of the control cell.

> And below, you wonder why it is necessary that there be a temperature
> gradient for the thing to work, and you wonder why increasing the
> temperature can turn the thing off.  Both of those effects alter the
> diffusion properties of metals to H, and I would assert that if I could
> find a study of the diffusion rates of He, that those would vary with metal
> type and metal temperature as well.

Here you  assume that sufficient helium can diffuse through stainless steel
and that the diffusion rate decrease with temperature.  Furthermore, only
certain cells show the effect and then only if certain batches of catalyst are
contained therein.  Surely you can see the unlikely nature of these
assumptions.

>
> If diffusion through the metals is important, then you will be forced to
> consider the relative rates of diffusion of H and of D and of He.  It is
> entirely possible that H has the greatest diffusion potential, He has the
> second largest diffusion potential, and D has the lowest diffusion
> potential.  If so, then the results would be explained.

This assumption is at odds with a large body of experience which you are
welcome to consult before wasting any more time.

>
> Note:  H has the highest mean kinetic velocity
>          He has the smallest equivalent atomic diameter
>          D has a slow velocity when compared to H, and an atomic diameter
> larger than He
>
> I think I got those right, but I didn't look them up so feel free to
> correct me if I am wrong.  The point is, though, that this possibility
> should not be discounted.
>
> Also, in the video, they said that there is a "large" excess "temperature".
>  That means nothing.  My question would be, what is the rate of excess
> energy generation.  I haven't gathered that the calorimetry is jumping off
> of the scales with kW of power being generated and clearly an ability to
> drive a power generation scheme,...............yet.

The large excess temperature is a quick and crude method of doing calorimetry
early in the study. The amount of power production is still small because only
a small amount of Pd is used in the laboratory-scale cells. Surely, you
recognize the possibility of scale-up once the process can be understood on a
small scale..

> >5. Why is a temperature gradient within the cell apparently beneficial
> >for anomalous energy production?
>
> Anomalous energy production, or anomalous He observations, or both?

This effect has been explored only with respect to heat production, as far as
I know.

Ed Storms




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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Feldman, Brooke
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Brooke,

Hello, are you the Brooke Feldman discussed in the science article below?

If so we have been discussing your work on the list server:

	"vortex-l eskimo.com"

You can take a look at what we are about at:

	http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/wvort.html

Basically:

The Vortex-L list was originally created for discussions of professional 
research into fluid vortex/cavitation devices which exhibit anomalous energy 
effects (ie: the inventions of Schaeffer, Huffman, Griggs, and Potapov among 
others.) Currently it has evolved into a discussion on "taboo" physics reports 
and research. SKEPTICS BEWARE, the topics wander from Cold Fusion, to reports of 
excess energy in Free Energy devices, gravity generation and detection, reports 
of theoretically impossible phenomena, and all sorts of supposedly crackpot 
claims. Before you subscribe, please see the rules below. This is a public, 
lightly- moderated smartlist list. 

If your interested, there are instructions on how to subscribe at the bottom.

Bill
briggs xlnsystems.com
webriggs concentric.net

>Hey Remi!

>Got the return e-mail from the editor, and he said that the issue was no
>longer in print, but that he could photo copy it for you for 10 bueno bucks.
>The issue is the March/April 1997 edition and the article is on pages 52 -
>53.  Then I decided to take one more look through the stacks of crap that I
>drug down here from Seattle, and the magazine was right on top of one of
>them.  After re-reading this article and looking at the photos, you will
>probably want to get a copy of your own.  Normally, this magazine shows
>large, brilliant B&W close-up photo's of the workpieces being discussed.
>They have excellent photographers.  In this article, however, they were
>asked to keep the lens a few feet further back than normal, because of a
>recently filed patent application.  The photos aren't bad, they just are not
>as detailed as I am used to for this magazine.  I'll run a patent check on
>this, and see what turns up.  It may have been granted by now.  The main
>reason you might want a copy of your own, is to see the young woman,
>herself.  She is quite attractive, has her own machine shop, and a pretty
>incredible track record for turning out prize winning ideas.  If you and I
>were 25 years younger, Remi, we'd be fighting over her, I'm sure. :^)

>Anyway, here is some selected text from the article:

>----------------------
>A Bit of Inspiration

>Machining Skills Pay Off

>by William H. Ganoe

>One of the projects that stood out at the 1996 International Science and
>Engineering Fair (ISEF) was an innovative motor designed and built by a
>sophomore at Tuscon, Arizona's Sabino High School - built in her family's
>machine shop.  Using metalworking skills she learned from her father and
>grandfather, along with help and encouragement from them and several others,
>Brooke Feldman conceived, designed, and built a motor that resulted in an
>impressive array of science fair awards.

>The basis for her motor is a temperature difference that straddles the Curie
>point of a selected material. [The Curie point is that temperature at which
>a material switches from ferromagnetic (strongly magnetic) behavior to
>paramagnetic (weakly magnetic) behavior.  In this case the material is
>Gadolinium with a Curie point of around 65F.  The Curie point of Iron is
>around 1,418F, and this phenomenon is the basis fro checking temperature
>with a magnet during heat treatment.]  Details of the motor will be a little
>vague since a patent application has been filed.

>Brooke's science fair exhibit include a working model of the motor, a
>proof-of-concept prototype, along with background material and performance
>data.  Brooke just barely got the exhibit ready by the deadline for the
>Southern Arizona Regional Science and Engineering Fair [SARSEF] in Tuscon
>March 1996, but meeting that deadline paid off with a first place regional
>science fair award which included a slot at the ISEF in May 1996 in Tuscon.
>(ISEF-affiliated regional science fairs can select a maximum of two
>individuals and one team project to compete at the ISEF each year.)  In
>addition to that award, she won first place awards from the Audubon Society,
>the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, the Junior Engineer
>Technical Society, Women in Science, Women in Science and Engineering, the
>US Army, and the US Navy/Marine Corps.

>A couple of months later at the ISEF in Tuscon, in competition with almost
>1,100 other students from over 40 countries around the world and all 50
>states, Brooke won several more first place awards including a trip for her
>and her teacher to a NASA center of her choice, $750 from the US Department
>of Energy, about $1,200 of ccompany stock from United Technologies
>Corporation, an $8,000 scholarship from the US Navy, and a second-place
>$2,500 scholarship from the Intel Corporation. [Proof that a disciplined
>application of mental effort and machining skills really pay off.]

>However, this wasn't Brooke's first taste of international competition and
>recognition.  Two years ago, as a freshman, she investigated the properties
>of different heat-treatments applied to knife blades made of different steel
>alloys.  With that study, she won top honors at the 1995 SARSEF, and went on
>to the 1995 ISEF in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.  Relatively few freshman
>compete at the ISEF to begin with, and fewer still win prizes, but Brooke
>won first place in engineering and received $2,500 and a solid gold medal
>from the US Army and $400 from NACE International (formerly the National
>Association of Corrosion Engineers.)

>---------------------
>There is more about how she struggled with various design problems, and so
>forth, but you can get the full article if you want.  All I can say is "Way
>To Go, Brooke!".  She makes us look like a bunch of crazy old farts! ;)

>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 14:13:23 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: KRI, Inc. info
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Here is the KRI homepage:

http://www.kansai-ri.co.jp/index_e.html

- Jed

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I see the English web page says:

Added a news about 'SUIYOUEKI DENKAISHITSU WO MOCHIITA ANZEN, ANKA NA
Lichum Ion DENCHI WO KAIHATSU'(Japanese only) in Press Release. (June 08,
1999) 

That means "Developing an inexpensive and safe Lithium Ion battery based on
liquid electrolysis." (Lichum = "Lithium" spelled wrong, or transcribed
wrong, as in "richium") Anyway, they are into electrochemical apps. It is a
subsidiary of Osaka Gas. Click on FUNCTION:

"KRI, founded in 1987 by Osaka Gas, offers a two-pronged approach
-consulting and contracted research - for solutions to clients'problems and
goals in business strategy, R&D and product development, among other areas
. . ."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 14:41:57 1999
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Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:43:19 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?
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At 07:12 PM 6/21/1999 +0100, Cornwall RO wrote:
>I've heard that Hg poisoning is cumalative. You might think you're okay,
>then opps, you've had it.

  It is cumulative, and mercurous cloride is much, much worse.  (Worst is
fluorine,  basically all the early chemist who worked with fluorine died
from it.) Incidently, the expression "mad as a hatter," came from the
practice of using mercury in the making of top hats.

  But the dosage of Hg required to cause problems is fairly large.  In fact
I suspect that most of the readers of this group have some silver amalgum
fillings in their mouth.  (Silver amlagum is a mixture of silver and
mercury.  In the mouth the mercury quickly leaches out leaving a fairly
pure silver filing.)  Of course, the practice of using silver amalgum for
fillings is being rapidly replaced by light cure polymers.
 

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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Subject: RE: PLEC:  Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?
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At 02:06 PM 6/21/1999 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>Similar comments could be made about lots of
>environmentalist bugaboos. For example, do you remember back in the 40's
>and 50's, when the spraying machines drove through city streets, disgorging
>enormous clouds of DDT into the air, and kids rode along behind them on
>their bicycles, veering in and out of the clouds? I did that, 50 years ago,
>and I, like you, am not aware of any symptoms yet. :-) Why do people
>believe the bullshit? Because they assume that the leaders of the
>environmentalist movement have good intentions--i.e., that they are looking
>out for our interests rather than pursuing some fascistic hidden agenda of
>their own.

   DDT was banned because it was causing egg shells of birds to become
thinner, causing more of them to break in the nest before hatching.  That's
what Rachel Carlson's book Silent Spring was all about.  DDT is totally
harmless to humans--thing of those truck drivers.

   However, the environmental movement was not content to reduce the use of
DDT, they wanted it all gone.  The replacements, however, are harmful to
both birds and humans!  (Incidently, the Department of Agriculture from
time to time permits the use of DDT because it is the most effective and
safest insecticide available.  The most recent case I can remember is the
Med fly scare in California a few years back.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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At 2:10 PM 6/23/99, Edward Kauffmann wrote:
> ... I am trying to relate CF to Spontaneous Human
>Cumbustion.  If there are problems with existing materials used in CF then
>take a lesson from Edison and look at other types of materials until you
>find ones that meet a better criteria for CF (i.e. more abundant, cheaper,
>etc.)

Aside from doing experiments with carcasses, which are probably lacking in
the special combination of ingredients necessary for spontaneous
combustion, the only other means of scientific investigation I can see is
the use of forensics.  Specifically, I would start with mass spectroscopy
of the ashes to look for isotopic anomalies.  Getting access to material is
a big problem in that SHC doesn't happen very often, and the ashes are
property of next of kin.  It would take a well publicised perpetually
available reponse team to get fresh material, especially gasses.  It could
be some material might be found in police evidence lockers somewhere, or
lying about a forensic lab.

If isotopic anomalies were shown to exist in the ashes, then forensic
pathologists should be interested because such anomalies would be an
indication of a specific cause of natural death.  After publishing of that
information in a forensics journal it may then become much easier to obtain
data.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 15:31:44 1999
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From: Ross Tessien <tessien oro.net>
Subject: Deadly Hg Compounds:  was:  Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?
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Caution regarding Hg compounds.

I read an article a while ago about a chemist working in a laboratory with
some compound of Hg that readily is taken up by the body.  This compound is
known to be tremendously hazardous.  She died within a year of handling it
with a rubber glove that had a pin prick in it.  I think it was in Science
News or in Sci Am.

If you are playing with Hg in any form, consult a chemist regarding any
possible compounds that you might be inadvertently forming.  Some of them
in extremely small doses can kill you in weeks.  I agree that Hg metal is
obviously not deadly poisonous or many of us would be dead.  But be very
careful with the formation of any compounds.  For example, playing around
with Joe Champions experiment with a bunch of acids and what not on top of
the Hg is in my opinion, really dangerous from a chemical poisoning point
of view.

See if York is feeling OK after his experiment that blew up on him for
example.  But definitely, before messing with Hg and any acidic or base
solvents, consult a chemist first as there are some compounds that can kill
you in short order.

rt



At 05:43 PM 6/23/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 07:12 PM 6/21/1999 +0100, Cornwall RO wrote:
>>I've heard that Hg poisoning is cumalative. You might think you're okay,
>>then opps, you've had it.
>
>  It is cumulative, and mercurous cloride is much, much worse.  (Worst is
>fluorine,  basically all the early chemist who worked with fluorine died
>from it.) Incidently, the expression "mad as a hatter," came from the
>practice of using mercury in the making of top hats.
>
>  But the dosage of Hg required to cause problems is fairly large.  In fact
>I suspect that most of the readers of this group have some silver amalgum
>fillings in their mouth.  (Silver amlagum is a mixture of silver and
>mercury.  In the mouth the mercury quickly leaches out leaving a fairly
>pure silver filing.)  Of course, the practice of using silver amalgum for
>fillings is being rapidly replaced by light cure polymers.
> 
>
>                                        Robert I. Eachus
>
>with Standard_Disclaimer;
>use  Standard_Disclaimer;
>function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
>

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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Yokogawa meter info
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:40:23 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 12:36:26 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Information in English about the WT130 power meter that Mizuno is using can
>be found at:
>
>http://www.yokogawa.co.jp/Measurement/English/Products/Bulletins-e/WT110/WT1
>10-e.html
>
>- Jed
The first thing I noticed about this meter is that it has separate DC
and AC specs. Since the actual signal comprises AC superimposed on DC,
which input is used for the meter, and how does it handle the signal?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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At 4:39 PM 6/23/99, Michael T Huffman wrote:
[snip good story]

Say, great article Knuke.  Sounds almost like it was written in the style
of Tom Beaudett, a guy who did original stories on the radio in Homer.  He
is now doing Motel 6 commercials and travelogs for PBS.  I realy enjoyed
his stories too.  Yes, it sounds like you were out where some say there is
nothing but the mud, the blood, and the beer.  I live about 50 miles North
of Anchorage, outside Palmer, in the Matanuska-Susitna valley, which is
rural, but not bush.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 16:03:55 1999
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Subject: Re: Murray: Case cell He artifact  6.14.99
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At 01:00 PM 6/23/1999 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>At 13:41 6/23/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>>The physics community has no
>>reason to doubt the existence of cold fusion.
>
>My first reaction was to pounce all over this statement but then it hit me.
> By golly, if we just ignore virtually everything that has been learned
>about nuclear fusion to date, you're right!

   No.  The only piece of data that doesn't fit is the branching ratios for 
d + d --> p + t, d + d --> He3 + n, and d + d --> He4.  If we postuulate a
process where in Palladium momentium can be transferred to other
atoms/nuclei, then the third reaction 1) will be strongly favored over the
other two, 2) reaction rates will be significantly enhanced, and 3) there
will be no detectable radiation.  (The reason that d + d --> He4 is
"forbidden" in hot fusion is that a 24 MeV photon released can't possibly
carry away the necessary momentum.  (There is also the problem that
deuterium has spin 1, and Helium 4 has spin 0.)

   Now let's look at the BEC hypothesis.  Because of the spin mechanics,
there will be two condensates, one with spin up, one with spin down.
Second, not only is it possible in those circumstances for the energy to be
distributed thoughout the condensate, it is required.  Finally, since the
two condensates are at rest with respect to each other, there is no
momentum to be carried away.

   Want more?  What convinced me, way back when, that there was something
to cold fusion were four observations that "conventional" physics can't
handle:

   1) The heat from the Earth and Jupiter is greater than theory says.
   2) The Solar Neutrino "problem."
   3) High levels of helium in some natural gas wells.  (Some can be explained
      by radioactive decay, but there are some wells in Texas that produce
over
      50% helium.)
   4) The lack of brown dwarf stars.

   All of these can be explained by "cold" fusion.  I could go on for hours
on any one of these "problems," but they all require some form of new
physics.  Cold fusion not only satisfies all of them, but makes Sir Occam
happy.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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At 02:16 PM 6/23/1999 -0400, Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 wrote:
>Could you also clarify the term Gun Bunnies.  =8^)

   Not really if it applies to tankers, I have only heard it applied to SP
Arty. (Self-propelled artillery.)  Tactical doctrine in the US Army for SP
Arty and rocket launchers (six-packs) is to "shoot and scoot."  They fire
an intense barrage, sometimes for less than a minute, then move to a
different location to avoid counter-battery fire.  I always thought that
the term gun-bunnies referred to the fact that the crews were really
hopping to get the guns down, spades retracted and buttoned up.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

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Subject: Re: Deadly Hg Compounds:  was:  Substitute Mercury for
  Tungsten?
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
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At 03:29 PM 6/23/1999 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
>I read an article a while ago about a chemist working in a laboratory with
>some compound of Hg that readily is taken up by the body.  This compound is
>known to be tremendously hazardous.  She died within a year of handling it
>with a rubber glove that had a pin prick in it.  I think it was in Science
>News or in Sci Am.

    As I said, mercurous cloride (HgCl) is nasty stuff.  There were a lot
of people poisoned with this in Japan a few years ago.   It got into the
water near a cannery. The "normal" cloride, mercuric cloride (HgCl2) is
relatively harmless.  (Well to people anyway.  Ever used Mercurichrome as
an antiseptic?  I believe that is HgCrO4.  However, I suggest you use
tincture of merthiolate instead--about 50 times as effective.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Testing for absorbed He
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:50:50 -0400
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Vo:

It has been suggested that Case cells at the end of a run, having produced
He, have the catalyst removed and burned in O2 to test for absorbed He that
might have been giving a false He signature.

Sorry, won't work. There is a parallel between the Case and A&Z experiments,
which I have pointed out. Both involve finely divided Pd. The definitive
aspect of the A&Z work is that the Pd nanopowder is removed from the cathode
shell after a run showing excess heat, and transferred to an elaborate mass
spectrometer. The junk is burned off and then trapped by a getter. When the
sample is heated to the vicinity of 1000 C, the He generated within the Pd
powder begins to evolve.

Now the Case catalyst evidently does not entrap the He so severely, but
while we are spinning hypotheses we may as well admit that in a successful
run He will be generated within the Pd catalyst which will evolve when the
carbonaceous base is burned in oxygen -- which will assuredly generate the
necessary heat.

Thus a He signature upon combustion can be read as confirmation of He
production from the CF reaction, not as evidence that He was trapped in the
carbonaceous base before the run started.

One can always make such a test before the run, but then the catalyst will
be mostly CO2. One could take a sample from the catalyst batch for a
separate test, but this would leave the speculation that the run sample was
not identical with the tested sample, since the source of each carbon piece
did not have an audit trail certificate.

Mike Carrell

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At 07:05 PM 6/23/99 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote:
>At 01:00 PM 6/23/1999 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>>At 13:41 6/23/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>>
>>>The physics community has no
>>>reason to doubt the existence of cold fusion.
>>
>>My first reaction was to pounce all over this statement but then it hit me.
>> By golly, if we just ignore virtually everything that has been learned
>>about nuclear fusion to date, you're right!
>
>   No.  The only piece of data that doesn't fit is the branching ratios for 
>d + d --> p + t, d + d --> He3 + n, and d + d --> He4.  If we postuulate a
>process where in Palladium momentium can be transferred to other
>atoms/nuclei, then the third reaction 1) will be strongly favored over the
>other two, 2) reaction rates will be significantly enhanced, and 3) there
>will be no detectable radiation.  (The reason that d + d --> He4 is
>"forbidden" in hot fusion is that a 24 MeV photon released can't possibly
>carry away the necessary momentum.  (There is also the problem that
>deuterium has spin 1, and Helium 4 has spin 0.)
>
>   Now let's look at the BEC hypothesis.  Because of the spin mechanics,
>there will be two condensates, one with spin up, one with spin down.
>Second, not only is it possible in those circumstances for the energy to be
>distributed thoughout the condensate, it is required.  Finally, since the
>two condensates are at rest with respect to each other, there is no
>momentum to be carried away.
>
>   Want more?  What convinced me, way back when, that there was something
>to cold fusion were four observations that "conventional" physics can't
>handle:
>
>   1) The heat from the Earth and Jupiter is greater than theory says.
>   2) The Solar Neutrino "problem."
>   3) High levels of helium in some natural gas wells.  (Some can be
explained
>      by radioactive decay, but there are some wells in Texas that produce
>over
>      50% helium.)
>   4) The lack of brown dwarf stars.
>
>   All of these can be explained by "cold" fusion.  I could go on for hours
>on any one of these "problems," but they all require some form of new
>physics.  Cold fusion not only satisfies all of them, but makes Sir Occam
>happy.
>
>                                        Robert I. Eachus
>

  Good review.

    Would only correct the first paragraph by adding:

  Conventional physics indicates the "expected" branching ratios
may not be available to "cold" fusion. [discussed in detail in
Swartz, M., 1997, "Phusons in Nuclear Reactions in Solids", 
Fusion Technology, 31, 228-236 (March 1997).]

  It is unfortunate that the purported "miracles (*) cold fusion
are touted by those who dont both to actually calculate
if that which is observed is consistent with what is expected.

 (*) ionizing radiation, and branching ratios yielding the
   purported "graduate student problem"



   Could you explain further the absence of brown dwarfs?


   Mitchell Swartz

    ================================================

 "Fooling around with alternating current is just
  a waste of time. 
  Nobody will use it, ever."  
    [Thomas Edison, 1889] 

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Hi Vorta,

:-)

I have a new commercial site at http://207.225.33.111.  Best wishes,

Ed


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

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Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 23:49:11 -0600
From: "Richard T. Murray" <rmforall earthlink.net>
Organization: Room For All
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Subject: Murray: 9.53 ug He adsorbed per gm activated carbon  6.23.99
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June 23, 1999   Hello,  Luckily, the world-class library at LANL is only
45 minutes away, and a very beautiful drive, too.  A computer search on
"helium adsorption carbon" gave dozens of abstracts from Chemical
Abstracts per year in recent years, and I was able to zerox some
reports in full.

"Adsorbent helium density measurement and its effect on adsorption
isotherms at high pressure," P. Malbrunot, D. Vidal, J. Vermesse,
Laboratoire d'Ingenierie des Materiaux et des Hautes Pressions, CRNS,
Universite Paris-Nord, 93430 Villetaneuse, France, and
R.Chahine, T. K. Bose, Institut de Recherche sur l'Hydrogene,
Universite du Quebec a Trois-Rivieres, Quebec, Canada G9A 5H7:
Langmuir 1997, 12, 539-544.  Chemical Abstracts 126: 148921

The density of porous adsorbents is measured by "helium density",
based on displacement of an equivalent helium volume. Helium has
normally been assumed to have negligible He adsorption at room
temperature, but as soon as 1960 Maggs gave evidence that this
is a doubtful assumption.

Malbrunot et al initially emptied each adsorbant: "The previous
regeneration of the adsorbant was carried out at a temperature
of 400 deg C under a vacuum of 10XE-3 Pa for 12 h."  Activated
carbon, 1030 m2/gm, (GAC 250, CECA-ELF-ATOCHEM,France) was found
at 25 deg C and 1 atm to adsorb 2.38XE-6 mol He per gm C, which
at 4.003 gm/mole, gives 9.53XE-6 gm He -- about the same value
found by F.A.P. Maggs, P.H. Schwabe, J.H. Williams, "Adsorption
of helium on carbon: influence on measurement of density,"
Nature June 18, 1960, p. 956-8, at 25 deg C and 1 atm.
Meggs outgassed his adsorbants at 357 deg C for 24 h.

Malbrunot studied a theoretical model: "We conclude that the
validity of Monte Carlo simulations for adsorption, and of the
hard sphere model as representative of the interaction between
helium and various types of adsorbents, is fairly good." Thus,
high levels of helium adsorption are not majorly explanable by
subtle quantum effects or unique catalytic spots, but must be
common to most activated carbons, as in the Ac-C studied by Maggs.

If the various catalysts used by Case to produce He have the
same adsorption capacity as the above, then 10 grams could store
at room temperture and 1 atm 95.3 micrograms of He, 289 times
the .33 ug found by George, Tanzella, and McKubre.  That leaves
plenty of room to accomodate the fact that the Case catalyst
was exposed only to air, and then at 3.4 atm about 3 times each
to H2 and D2, enough, as my post of 6.21.99 shows, to adsorb
.33 ug He, which would be gradually released by four weeks at
200-210 deg C, with trace O2, N2, Cl2, and H2O etching the pore
surfaces by forming CO, CO2, CCl4, while H2 and D2 form CH4.
Convection currents and temperatures in the catalytic bed would
differ for H2 and D2, as would reaction rates.  Some
arrangements are bound to exist that show helium release with D2,
but not H2.  Therefore, it is premature to claim that the Case
cell shows evidence of nuclear reactions.

It is interesting in recent days to see posts by many experts on
the nonexistence of helium adsorption in activated carbon
at room temperature at 1 atm, since a major report was published
in Nature in 1960.

Rich Murray  Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505
505-986-9103  505-920-6130  rmforall earthlink.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 23:16:10 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Electromagnetic effect research yields practical application. 
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From: John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>
To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk sunherald.infi.net>
Subject: Electromagnetic effect research yields practical application.


	Dear Vo. and others,

	Kyle Mcallister and myself have been engaged in a body of
investigation directed toward applying and exploiting little used but
reasonably well known electromagnetic properties.

	One aspect of the work has resulted in a practical application.
My intention is to, hopefully, find an interested entity, party or parties
to license or otherwise convey the intellectual property for this real
world  application.

	A general description is found below.  Please contact myself or
Kyle offline if you know of a possible fit.   I hope this results in a
positive response.  Anyone who makes a successful connection will get
modest finders fee.  I intend to use some of the tax burden to fund
oddball research, to be administered by some reputable third party, such
as Bill Beatty, Jerry Decker, the Infinite Energy gang or the like,
provided they are willing.

	The idea is to use some practical technologies to bootstrap up the
oddball stuff.  Just a dream of mine.  If anyone else has a similar
practical real world application which is a reduced to practice IP..  or
Intellectual Property... and wishes to, then contact me or Kyle off line. 
If anyone has a NEED of a technology let us know that too.  We may well
have a fit ... or may well be able to find one.

	The Application:


	Electromagnetic Property

	The property will simply be called a Connecting Link, or CL.
	This effect can be used to send data over short distances.  At
present many computer products use IR, or Infra Red to convey data.  Other
methods in use are radio methods, other optical links and, of course,
cables.
	One of the limitation of the wireless methods is reduced speed.
You can get high speed links... but costs go up with speed. 
	The CL method is very short range, less than 3 feet, sort of like
the IR methods.... but it is at least as fast as present day Serial and
Parallel cables, in most cases.  It is more expensive than a cable ... but
less expensive than an equivalent speed IR or radio link.  I like to think
of it as a connector with no pins.

					John Schnurer


	Physics Engineering
	PO Box CN 446
	Yellow Springs, Ohio
	45387

	herman college.antioch.edu


	PS:  Thanks to all for your time and care in this matter.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 23 23:33:42 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: DDT ...... toxic Mercury for Tungsten? (fwd)
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	Dear Vo.,


	In this contribution below, see flag.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:50:26 -0400
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: PLEC:  Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?
Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:47:44 -0700
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At 02:06 PM 6/21/1999 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>Similar comments could be made about lots of
>environmentalist bugaboos. For example, do you remember back in the 40's
>and 50's, when the spraying machines drove through city streets, disgorging
>enormous clouds of DDT into the air, and kids rode along behind them on
>their bicycles, veering in and out of the clouds? I did that, 50 years ago,
>and I, like you, am not aware of any symptoms yet. :-) Why do people
>believe the bullshit? Because they assume that the leaders of the
>environmentalist movement have good intentions--i.e., that they are looking
>out for our interests rather than pursuing some fascistic hidden agenda of
>their own.

   DDT was banned because it was causing egg shells of birds to become
thinner, causing more of them to break in the nest before hatching.  That's
what Rachel Carlson's book Silent Spring was all about. 

_____________________________________________________________________


	FLAG


........ DDT is totally
harmless to humans...............


	NOTE    CAUTION

	DDT is NOT harmless.
	It would be a real mistake to treat this compound as harmless.


__________________________________________________________________-





   However, the environmental movement was not content to reduce the use of
DDT, they wanted it all gone.  The replacements, however, are harmful to
both birds and humans!  (Incidently, the Department of Agriculture from
time to time permits the use of DDT because it is the most effective and
safest insecticide available.  The most recent case I can remember is the
Med fly scare in California a few years back.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Deadly Hg Compounds:  was:  Substitute Mercury for Tungsten? (fwd)
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Deadly Hg Compounds:  was:  Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?
Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:30:06 -0700
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com

Caution regarding Hg compounds.


	Water soluble salts of mercury.... such as mercuric chloride
..these are deadly.  Same goes for water soluble salts of many metals.

	It is a very real and compelling experience to be poisoned.

 	I have done a lot of work in the lab ... and have been poisoned
more than once by people not being careful ... or ignorant .

	CAUTION:   Absolutely do NOT treat chemicals lightly.

	If some person of printed matter claims "XXX" is OK... or harmless
... then be careful.

	Go to honest legitimate known accurate source of information and
check it out.


	!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
	Just because one party had no bad experience with a dangerous
materials of condition ..... This does NOT make the material, situation or
condition OK..... it may well be deadly or cripple.  EM and other
radiations... electric power .... very hot and very cold stuff ...
pressure conditions ... the list gos on.  Chemicals are right in there!

				JHS

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 00:19:17 1999
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On Wed, 23 Jun 1999, Michael T Huffman wrote:

> >Cheers Mike,
> >Hey, if I was 25 years younger, I'd be a toddler. So she's fair game
> >right!?
> >Remi.
> 
> You Dog!  I saw her first!  8^)  

Some latter day Shakespeare ought to do a 'Seven ages of Woman'. When
they're young, they're sweet. Middle, they're all career and they want
half - right!? When they're over 35 they have a sophisticated, sensual
'come hitherness' about them. When they're over 45, well, gravity and u.v.
takes its toll (probably drink as well).

Quick, cover! Flame attack!

Yeah, there is a mention of a problem that
> she had with finding an inexpensive Peltier device, and sinking the heat.
Okay, so this looks like a 'conventional' heat engine, though one can't be
a little bit pregnant on this - if its greater than Carnot efficiency,
it's revolutionary.

> I would have just given you my copy of the magazine, but I think it might be
> a hot item, now. ;)

Er, last time I had a, er, magazine collection, I was in my early teens.
All the best,
Remi.
> 
> Knuke
> 
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 00:22:51 1999
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Bill Briggs,
Thank you, it good that you are trying to bring Brooke into the
discussion.
Remi.

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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Murray: Case cell He artifact  6.14.99
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 07:25:22 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <3775da88.112905236 mail-hub>
References: <3.0.6.32.19990623134142.007d7780 pop.mindspring.com> <v01530507b396c493c82a@[12.21.211.115]> <3.0.5.32.19990623190508.009bd4b0@spectre.mitre.org>
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On Wed, 23 Jun 1999 19:05:08 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote:
[snip]
>   No.  The only piece of data that doesn't fit is the branching ratios for 
>d + d --> p + t, d + d --> He3 + n, and d + d --> He4.  If we postuulate a
>process where in Palladium momentium can be transferred to other
>atoms/nuclei, then the third reaction 1) will be strongly favored over the
>other two, 2) reaction rates will be significantly enhanced, and 3) there
>will be no detectable radiation.  (The reason that d + d --> He4 is
>"forbidden" in hot fusion is that a 24 MeV photon released can't possibly
>carry away the necessary momentum.  

Please explain. For the energy of the reaction D + D -> He4, I have an
energy of 23.8473 MeV. If the resultant He4 nucleus and gamma photon
each have equal and opposite momenta, then I get an energy for the
photon of 23.7715 MeV, and for the He4 nucleus of 75.78 keV in the
centre of mass frame of the original two D nuclei.
What am I missing?

>(There is also the problem that
>deuterium has spin 1, and Helium 4 has spin 0.)

Is the problem here that the photon has spin 1 (and isn't this the main
reason that this reaction is so unlikely, i.e. the D's can be +1 and -1,
but there isn't anything left for the photon)? (Or am I just showing my
ignorance again ;)
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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Ross,
I suggested Gallium kind of dispassionately and semi-flippantly. I
understand its reactive with water as Fred Sparber suggested but is there
a way to kind of 'reverse bias' it to stop it going into solution. I.e. if
I remember my electrochemical series with metals more +ve than the H
electrode, what if you biased it negative greater than its electrode
potential?
Remi.

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Testing for absorbed He
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At 8:50 PM 6/23/99, Mike Carrell wrote:
[snip]
>Thus a He signature upon combustion can be read as confirmation of He
>production from the CF reaction, not as evidence that He was trapped in the
>carbonaceous base before the run started.
>
>One can always make such a test before the run, but then the catalyst will
>be mostly CO2. One could take a sample from the catalyst batch for a
>separate test, but this would leave the speculation that the run sample was
>not identical with the tested sample, since the source of each carbon piece
>did not have an audit trail certificate.
>
>Mike Carrell


The above is not true.  The supposition is that there is enough helium to
provide the observed linear evolvement, thus *much more* than the amount in
the cell gas, the amout suggested to be created by fusion and supposedly
matching the energy as well.  Therefore, there should be plenty excess
helium left over, an order of magnitude worth, to make this  determination
after completion of a run.

I samples taken prior to a run all show an order of magnitude more helium
than that to be produced, then that should also raise further questions.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: Fuel cells featured in Scientific American
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:23:45 GMT
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On Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:46:46 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
[snip]
>Frankly, this logic strikes me as far too compelling to ignore. It is so
>compelling, in fact, that it must be specifically refuted, if fusion is to
>be demonstrated in these experiments, and this statement applies whether
>"cash poor" experimenters prefer to look elsewhere or not. How would that
>be done? Simple: the experimenter, at the end of a helium producing run,
>must burn (in pure oxygen) the specific carbon briquet that was used, and
>measure the helium content of the resulting gases.
>
>--Mitchell Jones}***
If they wait till after the experiment, then wouldn't they run the risk
that most of the He had already been purged?
Perhaps better to divide the initial catalyst into two parts, burning
one part in oxygen, and using the other portion in an experiment.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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Subject: Re: Murray: 9.53 ug He adsorbed per gm activated carbon 
  6.23.99
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At 11:49 PM 6/23/99 -0600, Richard T. Murray wrote:
>June 23, 1999   Hello,  Luckily, the world-class library at LANL is only
>45 minutes away, and a very beautiful drive, too.  A computer search on
>"helium adsorption carbon" gave dozens of abstracts from Chemical
>Abstracts per year in recent years, and I was able to zerox some
>reports in full.
>
>"Adsorbent helium density measurement and its effect on adsorption
>isotherms at high pressure," P. Malbrunot, D. Vidal, J. Vermesse,
>Laboratoire d'Ingenierie des Materiaux et des Hautes Pressions, CRNS,
>Universite Paris-Nord, 93430 Villetaneuse, France, and
>R.Chahine, T. K. Bose, Institut de Recherche sur l'Hydrogene,
>Universite du Quebec a Trois-Rivieres, Quebec, Canada G9A 5H7:
>Langmuir 1997, 12, 539-544.  Chemical Abstracts 126: 148921
>
>The density of porous adsorbents is measured by "helium density",
>based on displacement of an equivalent helium volume. Helium has
>normally been assumed to have negligible He adsorption at room
>temperature, but as soon as 1960 Maggs gave evidence that this
>is a doubtful assumption.
>
>Malbrunot et al initially emptied each adsorbant: "The previous
>regeneration of the adsorbant was carried out at a temperature
>of 400 deg C under a vacuum of 10XE-3 Pa for 12 h."  Activated
>carbon, 1030 m2/gm, (GAC 250, CECA-ELF-ATOCHEM,France) was found
>at 25 deg C and 1 atm to adsorb 2.38XE-6 mol He per gm C, which
>at 4.003 gm/mole, gives 9.53XE-6 gm He -- about the same value
>found by F.A.P. Maggs, P.H. Schwabe, J.H. Williams, "Adsorption
>of helium on carbon: influence on measurement of density,"
>Nature June 18, 1960, p. 956-8, at 25 deg C and 1 atm.
>Meggs outgassed his adsorbants at 357 deg C for 24 h.

> ---- [zipped]


>It is interesting in recent days to see posts by many experts on
>the nonexistence of helium adsorption in activated carbon
>at room temperature at 1 atm, since a major report was published
>in Nature in 1960.



   Rich:

     Many folks here have agreed that shallow traps (not always
called that) do exist.   As was posted,
  ".. the discussion was about helium purportedly bound, adsorbed,
    absorbed, or otherwise contained in shallow (or other) traps."

   The issues as pointed out by Ed, myself, and others has 
included the energy of the binding (the deepness of the trap),
and most importantly how to explain the kinetics observed (including
delay, and near-linear appearance, thereafter).

    The former can be deduced from the binding as a f(temp).
Perhaps there was info in the references you found in your
scholarly searching of the stacks?

  The latter is more difficult to explain, since your
(or other serious criticial) explanation must also explain 
WHY the purported 'outgassing' does not occur
initially - or in the controls - but linearly thereafter.

    Mitchell Swartz




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Subject: Re: Murray: 9.53 ug He adsorbed per gm activated carbon  6.23.99
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----- Original Message -----
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 5:20 AM
Subject: Re: Murray: 9.53 ug He adsorbed per gm activated carbon 6.23.99

Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>
>    Rich:
>
>      Many folks here have agreed that shallow traps (not always
> called that) do exist.   As was posted,
>   ".. the discussion was about helium purportedly bound, adsorbed,
>     absorbed, or otherwise contained in shallow (or other) traps."
>
>    The issues as pointed out by Ed, myself, and others has
> included the energy of the binding (the deepness of the trap),
> and most importantly how to explain the kinetics observed (including
> delay, and near-linear appearance, thereafter).

Sounds more like a mechanical trapping and thermal diffusion problem than a
binding energy problem.

Walt Stark (Ed Storms' former boss) did a lot of Helium Diffusion  research
when I worked with him in the late 60's at Sandia.

When you load the Activated Carbon with H2 initially, then hit it with D2
and get the Exothermic
H2-D2 Reaction:   D2 + H2 ---->  2 HD, you're likely to shake some trapped
He loose.
>
>     The former can be deduced from the binding as a f(temp).
> Perhaps there was info in the references you found in your
> scholarly searching of the stacks?

"Binding as a f(temp)" for He-Carbon? Nonsense, agitation perhaps.
>
>   The latter is more difficult to explain, since your
> (or other serious criticial) explanation must also explain
> WHY the purported 'outgassing' does not occur
> initially - or in the controls - but linearly thereafter.

Sounds like you need to bone up on diffusion, Bones.   :-)X

Regards,     Frederick
>
>     Mitchell Swartz
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject: Re: Murray: 9.53 ug He adsorbed per gm activated carbon  
  6.23.99
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At 11:49 PM 6/23/99 -0600, Richard T. Murray wrote:

>Helium has
>normally been assumed to have negligible He adsorption at room
>temperature....

That was certainly my first reaction to your hypothesis.

Then:

>Activated
>carbon, 1030 m2/gm, (GAC 250, CECA-ELF-ATOCHEM,France) was found
>at 25 deg C and 1 atm to adsorb 2.38XE-6 mol He per gm C

At 07:20 6/24/99 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>The issues as pointed out by Ed, myself, and others has 
>included the energy of the binding (the deepness of the trap),
>and most importantly how to explain the kinetics observed (including
>delay, and near-linear appearance, thereafter).

Don't try to dismiss Rich's very important find just because there are
unexplained features in the SRI data.  The very fact that carbon is capable
of such a large He absorbtion...hundreds of times greater than the
purported He production...jerks the rug right out from under the SRI
results...until such time that they prove with control runs, etc. that the
He they observed was not in the catalyst to begin with.

Congratulations, Rich, on taking the trouble to look for data to support
your "wild idea".  If you really want to make a good impression on folks,
next time do the research first, then present your hypothesis.

You should call Doug Perkins up and find out what the typical m^2/gram
rating is for the carbon that this catalyst is made from.  That should have
a direct impact on the He adsorbtion capacity.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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Subject: Re: Murray: 9.53 ug He adsorbed per gm activated carbon   
  6.23.99
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At 08:23 AM 6/24/99 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>At 11:49 PM 6/23/99 -0600, Richard T. Murray wrote:
>
>>Helium has
>>normally been assumed to have negligible He adsorption at room
>>temperature....
>
>That was certainly my first reaction to your hypothesis.
>
>Then:
>
>>Activated
>>carbon, 1030 m2/gm, (GAC 250, CECA-ELF-ATOCHEM,France) was found
>>at 25 deg C and 1 atm to adsorb 2.38XE-6 mol He per gm C
>
>At 07:20 6/24/99 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>
>>The issues as pointed out by Ed, myself, and others has 
>>included the energy of the binding (the deepness of the trap),
>>and most importantly how to explain the kinetics observed (including
>>delay, and near-linear appearance, thereafter).
>
>Don't try to dismiss Rich's very important find just because there are
>unexplained features in the SRI data.  The very fact that carbon is capable
>of such a large He absorbtion...hundreds of times greater than the
>purported He production...jerks the rug right out from under the SRI
>results...until such time that they prove with control runs, etc. that the
>He they observed was not in the catalyst to begin with.

  Did not dismiss it, Scott.  

  Gave him suggestions to demonstrate that it is relevant.   

  Read the post about the depth of the traps, and the other posts by Frank.

     Mitchell Swartz

 
   

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"Richard T. Murray" wrote:

> It is interesting in recent days to see posts by many experts on
> the nonexistence of helium adsorption in activated carbon
> at room temperature at 1 atm, since a major report was published
> in Nature in 1960.
>
> Rich Murray  Room For All
> 1943  Otowi Drive
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505
> 505-986-9103  505-920-6130  rmforall earthlink.net

Rich and other people who use this information should realize that the
measured absorption applies to He at 1 atm not to 6 ppm in air.  The amount
of He absorbed goes down as the partial pressure is reduced. This is why I
was careful to note this condition in my post. Furthermore, this absorbed
He is very lightly bonded so that it is expelled easily.  The amount that
can absorb depends on the surface area since absorption involves only a
monolayer. When making a conclusion, one needs to be sure that all
variables are taken into account.

Ed Storms




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Vo,

I acknowledge that Rich Murray has brought to our attention useful data
concerning helium absorption in certain activated carbon compounds.  It is
likely that this was known to the SRI team.

> [. . .] samples taken prior to a run all show an order of magnitude more
helium
> than that to be produced, then that should also raise further questions.
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner
>
We need to know more about checks that McKubre et al. performed.  I am
willing to wait until the work is published, as I find this criticism to be
of small significance, given that the helium was not detected in the control
cell, which had D2 and the same catalyst.  Also, the helium is not always
found, and it is hard for me to imagine that such a prosaic source of helium
would be so fickle.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

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At 07:44 6/24/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:

>Rich and other people who use this information should realize that the
>measured absorption applies to He at 1 atm not to 6 ppm in air....

Good point, Ed.  Now that we know the carbon can retain significant He, do
you think there is a significant possibility that carbon would selectively
extract He from the atmosphere?  Because of the very small molecular size,
maybe He atoms can fit into places in the carbon structure where nothing
else can fit.  If that were the case then, over time while exposed to
ordinary air, those places would fill with He, no?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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Subject: Re: Murray: 9.53 ug He adsorbed per gm activated carbon 
  6.23.99
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Ed Storms wrote:

>Rich and other people who use this information should realize that the
>measured absorption applies to He at 1 atm not to 6 ppm in air.

To clarify the clarification, Ed means pure helium at one atm, not a teeny
bit of helium mixed in with lottsa air. (It was slightly confusing the
first time I read it.)

- Jed

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Robert I. Eachus writes:

	Cold fusion not only satisfies all of them, but makes Sir Occam
	happy.

I don't like to be pedantic . . . (okay, I admit, I do like to be
pedantic), but that should be Sir William. The title goes with the first
name, so the world's premier science & science fiction writer is now Sir
Arthur, and no longer merely Dr. Clarke. Furthermore, Occam, or Doctor
Invincibilis, or William of Ockham as the Brits spell it, was a Franciscan
monk, so I do not think he would have accepted knighthood even if it had
been offered, and it wasn't as far as I know. He was a controversial
fellow, often in hot water with the Powers That Be (That Were). When he was
young, Oxford threw him out without a degree because he disagreed with the
professors, and when he was old the Pope excommunicated him.

- Jed

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----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: Murray: 9.53 ug He adsorbed per gm activated carbon 6.23.99

Scott wrote:


> At 07:44 6/24/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >Rich and other people who use this information should realize that the
> >measured absorption applies to He at 1 atm not to 6 ppm in air....
>
> Good point, Ed.  Now that we know the carbon can retain significant He, do
> you think there is a significant possibility that carbon would selectively
> extract He from the atmosphere?  Because of the very small molecular size,
> maybe He atoms can fit into places in the carbon structure where nothing
> else can fit.  If that were the case then, over time while exposed to
> ordinary air, those places would fill with He, no?

Yes, this is getting at the heart of Pressure Swing Absorption-Adsorption
(PSA) that can separate
N2 from O2, and Molecular Sieve Technology,also.

Geoge Buehler, is checking out the area and pore volume of the activated
carbon for me, but this still doesn't cover nanopores in the carbon that may
be trapping the Helium.

Regards,     Frederick

>
>
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 08:02:59 1999
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Subject: Re: Murray: 9.53 ug He adsorbed per gm activated carbon 6.23.99
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Scott Little wrote:

> At 07:44 6/24/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >Rich and other people who use this information should realize that the
> >measured absorption applies to He at 1 atm not to 6 ppm in air....
>
> Good point, Ed.  Now that we know the carbon can retain significant He, do
> you think there is a significant possibility that carbon would selectively
> extract He from the atmosphere?  Because of the very small molecular size,
> maybe He atoms can fit into places in the carbon structure where nothing
> else can fit.  If that were the case then, over time while exposed to
> ordinary air, those places would fill with He, no?
>
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

Scott,
In order for a substance to be selectively pulled from the atmosphere, a
sufficient chemical bond energy must be involved.  The bonding between He and
C is very weak, consisting mainly of surface-energy bonds.  Normally, these
bonds are completely saturated by absorbed impurities including H2O, O2 and
N2.  For the He to be absorbed, these more tightly bonded atoms must be
displaced.  Such displacement requires energy which would have to be supplied
by the He-C bonds.  Since this bond is weaker than that of the absorbed
impurities, the He can not be concentrated. When C is exposed to vacuum and
then to He at 1 atm, most of the impurities are removed and can be replaced
by He. Indeed, this process is used to determine the surface area of
materials. However, if exposed to air, this He is quickly replaced by the
more tightly bonded molecules in air. The size of the He atom plays no role
because there is no glue to hold it in place.  On the other hand, H2O, a much
larger item, is bonded strongly by carbon. I can say with considerable
certainty that a carbon catalyst exposed to air will not pick up enough
helium to explain the SRI results.  What little that may be absorbed will be
very quickly replaced when exposed to 1 atm of hydrogen or deuterium,
components which have strong bonds with carbon.

Ed Storms




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 08:03:40 1999
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Subject: Re: Sir Bill to you, sir
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----- Original Message -----
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 8:38 AM
Subject: Sir Bill to you, sir

Jed wrote:

> Robert I. Eachus writes:
>
> Cold fusion not only satisfies all of them, but makes Sir Occam
> happy.
>
> I don't like to be pedantic . . . (okay, I admit, I do like to be
> pedantic), but that should be Sir William. The title goes with the first
> name, so the world's premier science & science fiction writer is now Sir
> Arthur, and no longer merely Dr. Clarke. Furthermore, Occam, or Doctor
> Invincibilis, or William of Ockham as the Brits spell it, was a Franciscan
> monk, so I do not think he would have accepted knighthood even if it had
> been offered, and it wasn't as far as I know. He was a controversial
> fellow, often in hot water with the Powers That Be (That Were). When he
was
> young, Oxford threw him out without a degree because he disagreed with the
> professors, and when he was old the Pope excommunicated him.

Well, he might have belonged to the Knights of Columbus.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick
>
> - Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 08:22:00 1999
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Just TRY IT, Scott!
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Scott Little and many others have written a lot of speculative nonsense
like this:

	Now that we know the carbon can retain significant He, do you
	think there is a significant possibility that carbon would
	selectively extract He from the atmosphere?

Not without energy input it wouldn't. That's a violation of thermodynamics,
like osmosis uphill, which has also been proposed here.


	Because of the very small molecular size, maybe He atoms can fit
	into places in the carbon structure where nothing else can fit. 
	If that were the case then, over time while exposed to ordinary
	air, those places would fill with He, no?

No, mixed gases do not unmix spontaneously. HOWEVER, don't take my word for
it. And stop speculating. Listen up, Scott: You have a sample of the carbon
catalyst, right? You have a mass spectrometer, right? Okay, do the
experiment! Go ahead, check out some of those pieces. Select unused pieces
so you will not have to worry about D2 looking like He.

Here is another test you can try. Expose a sample of the carbon to pure He
for 24 hours, leave it in air for a while, heat it to 200 deg C for an hour
in hydrogen (not deuterium), then burn it and check the gas for helium.
I'll bet you do not find any measurable helium. It all comes off first thing.

What is the point of having all these instruments and then speculating
instead of acting?

By the way, I agree with Mike Carrell that you may find helium in
post-experiment samples that produced heat. It would generated in the metal
and trapped between the metal and the substrate. McKubre and others have
often seen trapped helium emerge gradually from bulk Pd after the
experiment. After a few days it dies off and at that point total helium
emissions are commensurate with the heat, assuming something like a
conventional fusion reaction occurred.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 08:27:37 1999
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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:31:28 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: SHC and Polar Bears
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At 03:05 PM 6/23/99 -0800, you wrote:
 I live about 50 miles North
>of Anchorage, outside Palmer, in the Matanuska-Susitna valley, which is
>rural, but not bush.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>

Last summer I got up to Anchorage for the first time. Among other things, I
went to a square dance festival in Palmer. Beautiful country. Shoulda
looked you up :-)

--Lynn

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 08:43:47 1999
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Subject: Re: KRI, Inc. info
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y


	What is KRI?  Please.

On Wed, 23 Jun 1999, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Here is the KRI homepage:
> 
> http://www.kansai-ri.co.jp/index_e.html
> 
> - Jed
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 08:45:20 1999
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At 11:20 AM 6/24/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Scott Little and many others have written a lot of speculative nonsense
>like this:
>
>	Now that we know the carbon can retain significant He, do you
>	think there is a significant possibility that carbon would
>	selectively extract He from the atmosphere?
>
>Not without energy input it wouldn't. That's a violation of thermodynamics,
>like osmosis uphill, which has also been proposed here.


   Methinks Jed means "energy loss".  Such as occurs with
oxygen being bound by hemoglobin, as it extracts oxygen
from the air.  There are thereafter bound and solvated
oxygen compartments.

     -----------------------------------------------


>	Because of the very small molecular size, maybe He atoms can fit
>	into places in the carbon structure where nothing else can fit. 
>	If that were the case then, over time while exposed to ordinary
>	air, those places would fill with He, no?
>
>No, mixed gases do not unmix spontaneously. HOWEVER, don't take my word for
>it. And stop speculating. Listen up, Scott: You have a sample of the carbon
>catalyst, right? You have a mass spectrometer, right? Okay, do the
>experiment! Go ahead, check out some of those pieces. Select unused pieces
>so you will not have to worry about D2 looking like He.


   Actually, one CAN get unmixing but only under some specific conditions.
Cobalt dihistidine has been used to take the place of hemoglobin, and
it also has isotopic preferences. Thus, although it can occur, the conditions
are not common ones.

   The issues in this putative criticism remain, however, the number of
traps, 
their depth, their distribution, and why to particular kinetics of 
He4 appearance would be seen.

   Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 08:47:49 1999
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Subject: Re: Sir Bill to you, sir
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Fred wrote:

>Well, he might have belonged to the Knights of Columbus.  :-)

Well, okay, maybe . . . But he died 102 years before Columbus was born. On
the other hand he was ahead of his time. Maybe he invented the secret
handshake too. But who would he shake hands with, being the only member?

- Jed

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To: Vortex

 http://focus.aps.org/v3/st6.html

About anything is possible with Activated Carbon. At 6 ppm in Air at STP you
still have 1.6E14 Helium atoms/cm^3. When you go pushing H2 and D2 molecules
into the Carbon "Lattice" after the laws of diffusion has loaded the
nanopores with Helium and you push it into them with H2-D2 loading you can
expect the Helium to work back out over time.

Regards,    Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 08:59:37 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Just TRY IT, Scott!
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M. S. wrote:

>   Methinks Jed means "energy loss".  Such as occurs with
>oxygen being bound by hemoglobin . . .

Yes. Right. As far as I know you cannot filter without energy input. But
after I wrote that Ed Storms posted a much more detailed analysis which
everyone should pay attention to.

By the way, I was not taunting Scott Little in this message. I sincerely
believe he should get to it and try this experiment, since he has samples
of the carbon and some kind of mass spectrometer. If this carbon has any
ability to spontaneously, selectively absorb helium from the atmosphere,
surely all samples will share this ability to some extent. It is hard to
imagine that some samples can collect enough He to fill a steel cylinder to
11 ppm with no decline in the rate of outgassing, while other samples do
not collect any measureable levels of He at all. As someone pointed out, in
order for the sample to outgas at that steady rate, it would have to hold
far more He than the total outgassed (maybe 10 times more?), and it would
have to release the He steadily, in way that nobody has ever seen before.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 09:01:14 1999
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At 08:25 AM 6/24/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Ross,
>I suggested Gallium kind of dispassionately and semi-flippantly. I
>understand its reactive with water as Fred Sparber suggested but is there
>a way to kind of 'reverse bias' it to stop it going into solution. I.e. if
>I remember my electrochemical series with metals more +ve than the H
>electrode, what if you biased it negative greater than its electrode
>potential?
>Remi.

That is just called "plating".  You can plate virtually anything out if you
have enough potential as far as I know.  I am not a chemist though, I am an
ME.  So I'm just remembering chemistry and the fact that you can plate
metals out if you apply a voltage.

rt

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Subject: Re: Murray: Case cell He artifact  6.14.99
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At 08:43 PM 6/23/1999 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>   Could you explain further the absence of brown dwarfs?

    Sure.  When gas clouds condense to form stars, observational data
indicates a smooth spectrum of sizes, with smaller stars being more
numerous.  (Look at the Russel-Hertzsprung diagrams.) Larger main sequence
stars burn faster so they are less numerous.  Brown dwarfs are stars "too
small" to initiate fusion, so they only radiate in the infrared (from
gravitational contraction and infalling matter).  But where are they?  They
should be all over the place, but there are only a few that have been
found.  The astronomical consensus seems to be that fusion burning starts
at a lower pressure and temperature than calculated, and most brown dwarfs
are small enough to blow themselves apart on ignition.  So there is a gap
in size between the largest brown dwarf that doesn't ignite, and the
smallest red dwarf that can survive ignition.  Incidently, this implies
that if Jupiter was much bigger, it would ignite, and some of the "hot
Jupiters" found in short period orbit around nearby stars may accrete
enough mass from the solar (stellar?) wind from the primary to ignite.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 09:10:15 1999
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Subject: Re: Just TRY IT, Scott!
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----- Original Message -----
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: Just TRY IT, Scott!

Jed wrote:


> M. S. wrote:
>
> >   Methinks Jed means "energy loss".  Such as occurs with
> >oxygen being bound by hemoglobin . . .
>
> Yes. Right. As far as I know you cannot filter without energy input. But
> after I wrote that Ed Storms posted a much more detailed analysis which
> everyone should pay attention to.
>
> By the way, I was not taunting Scott Little in this message. I sincerely
> believe he should get to it and try this experiment, since he has samples
> of the carbon and some kind of mass spectrometer. If this carbon has any
> ability to spontaneously, selectively absorb helium from the atmosphere,
> surely all samples will share this ability to some extent. It is hard to
> imagine that some samples can collect enough He to fill a steel cylinder
to
> 11 ppm with no decline in the rate of outgassing, while other samples do
> not collect any measureable levels of He at all. As someone pointed out,
in
> order for the sample to outgas at that steady rate, it would have to hold
> far more He than the total outgassed (maybe 10 times more?), and it would
> have to release the He steadily, in way that nobody has ever seen before.

I agree. If you pull a vacuum on the sample, then let it up to air that has
a given quantity of
Helium, you should see a drop in He if the carbon is selectively "absorbing"
it.

With a Golden Handshake, Sir?  :-)

Regards,     Frederick

>
> - Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 09:12:51 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: KRI, Inc. info
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990624113617.21288A-100000 college.antioch-c
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John Schnurer asks "What is KRI?  Please." It is the company working with
Mizuno. Scientists at KRI replicated the glow discharge CF experiment.

Mizuno reports that they used 4 liters of 0.2 mol of K2CO3 electrolyte in a
Dewar vessel. The vessel has a transparent plastic top, which allows them
to look down inside control the glow discharge. They pre-heated the water
to 60 deg C and then ran the glow discharge until the temperature reached
86 deg C. In one sample run, total input was 226 kJ, and cell enthalpy was
329 kJ: 3089 grams water *4.184 * (86.1 deg C - 60.6 deg C). Heat release
from the Dewar was 11.8 kJ and the enthalpy of the effluent gas was 7.6 kJ,
so the total average input to output ratio was 1.54. In other runs, the
input to output ratios have varied from as low as 1.06 to 2.81 maximum.

I did not find any mention of this experiment in
http://www.kansai-ri.co.jp/index_e.html, but the experiment just started a
few months ago. It looks like a large, professional corporate laboratory.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 09:15:07 1999
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  6.23.99
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>Rich and other people who use this information should realize that the
>measured absorption applies to He at 1 atm not to 6 ppm in air.  The amount
>of He absorbed goes down as the partial pressure is reduced. This is why I
>was careful to note this condition in my post. Furthermore, this absorbed
>He is very lightly bonded so that it is expelled easily.  The amount that
>can absorb depends on the surface area since absorption involves only a
>monolayer. When making a conclusion, one needs to be sure that all
>variables are taken into account.
>
>Ed Storms

Understood and I agree that the conditions are not equivalent.  But it
doesn't mean that this mustn't be looked into.

First of all, despite the fact that the He is at a small partial pressure,
it is at the full 1 atm *pressure*.  In other words, the KE of the He
particles corresponds to that pressure and temperature condition.

Now, you place a thin metal film over the carbon, and if *that* now works
like the osmotic membrane I have been talking about it could take up He
through the thin metal film that precludes other molecular atmospheric
constituents as they cannot penetrate as easily.

Again, I am not saying that this is what is going on.  But again, it would
be easy to take some of the carbon from a successful test, grind it up in a
vacuum or inert *known* gas, and then run it through the mass spec to see
if it had a bunch of He in it.

I am not saying anything about the experiment quality directly.  I am
saying that if it is so simple to build a high power version of this thing,
then do it.  And if it is not, then do the tests to rule out the
contamination paths.  

It sounded logical that the He is probably not coming in through the DeWar
from your last post.  So, if they can establish that it isn't in the carbon
either, then they have eliminated the possible contamination paths I know
of in the experiment (ie, so long as there isn't any other material inside
the experiment within which the He could be hiding and leaching out)

It is easy to run a mass spec, it is easy to grind up carbon chunks or heat
them or whatever, so it should be tested and verified.  If it isn't there,
great, if it is, announce it.

rt




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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: DDT ...... toxic Mercury for Tungsten? (fwd)
Cc: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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At 02:36 AM 6/24/1999 -0400, John Schnurer wrote:

>........ DDT is totally
>harmless to humans...............
>
>
>	NOTE    CAUTION
>
>	DDT is NOT harmless.
>	It would be a real mistake to treat this compound as harmless.
 
    DDT is as harmless to humans as water.  You get too much of either in
your lungs, it can kill you.  But if I were to eat DDT while you were
drinking water, pound for pound, you would die first.  Not that I recommend
trying the experiment, but people have eaten a pound of DDT to show how
harmless it is, and some of those spray truck drivers ingested and inhaled
more than their body weight in DDT without ill effects.

    However, don't try this at home kiddies.  Most high DDT content
pesticides also contain arsenic trioxide and other nasty stuff.  

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 09:23:09 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: KRI, Inc. info
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I wrote:

>Mizuno reports that they used 4 liters of 0.2 mol of K2CO3 electrolyte . . .

Correct that:

Mizuno reports they used a 4 liter Dewar vessel with 0.2 mol K2CO3
electrolyte . . .

(And 3 l of electrolyte, as it says below.)
 
- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 09:26:39 1999
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Subject: Re: Just TRY IT, Scott!
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At 11:20 AM 6/24/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Scott Little and many others have written a lot of speculative nonsense
>like this:
>
>	Now that we know the carbon can retain significant He, do you
>	think there is a significant possibility that carbon would
>	selectively extract He from the atmosphere?
>
>Not without energy input it wouldn't. That's a violation of thermodynamics,
>like osmosis uphill, which has also been proposed here.

Osmosis uphill works wonderfully.  Go take a look at a tree some time and
ask yourself, how did the water get from the ground to the tree tops.  Do
you think that trees have little turbo pumps inside?   ;-)

Check out a thermocouple which pushes electrons upstream (up voltage).
Proton conductors can do the same, and a helium atom is just a couple of
protons in a tight, easy to slip through the cracks, package.

If I had a mass spec, I would run the test.  They do, therefore they should.



>	Because of the very small molecular size, maybe He atoms can fit
>	into places in the carbon structure where nothing else can fit. 
>	If that were the case then, over time while exposed to ordinary
>	air, those places would fill with He, no?
>
>No, mixed gases do not unmix spontaneously. 

This is incorrect.  H will pass through certain membranes that other gases
will not.  This is the basis for H purification systems and they are
patented, sold, and work.  You just are not correct here Jed as much as I
do appreciate and like the push in favor of CF that you are pursuing, this
is simply incorrect and I personally have an uneasy feeling about this Case
experiment.

I hope it is correct, but I don't want for CF to suffer a major set back
because we put too many eggs in one basket without first assuring there are
no holes in the basket.




>What is the point of having all these instruments and then speculating
>instead of acting?

On this I completely concur.  It is too simple to test whether or not there
is He in the carbon plated with Pd or whatever.  The test should be done
and McKubre should do it if he hasn't already.  And Scott or someone else
could verify it for a double check.


>
>By the way, I agree with Mike Carrell that you may find helium in
>post-experiment samples that produced heat. 

Then you have to test samples from the same batch that worked, but that
were not put into the test.  A simple blind.

rt

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 09:32:19 1999
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Subject: Re: Just TRY IT, Scott!
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 It is hard to
>imagine that some samples can collect enough He to fill a steel cylinder to
>11 ppm with no decline in the rate of outgassing, while other samples do
>not collect any measureable levels of He at all.

>- Jed

It seems easy to imagine to me.  All you need are different plating
thicknesses.  Too thick, no He penetration.  To thin, you don't keep it
inside.  Just right, and you get a one way barrier.

And I agree, it is easy enough to rule it out so it should be ruled out.

rt



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Subject: Re: Just TRY IT, Scott!
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At 11:20 6/24/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Listen up, Scott: You have a sample of the carbon
>catalyst, right? You have a mass spectrometer, right? Okay, do the
>experiment!

I'm already on it. The reason I left my vac system on all night two days
ago was to try to get rid of the apparent D2 contamination that has
resulted from many hours of having parts of the system full of D2 at
near-atmospheric pressure.  As things stand right now, when I bleed air
into the system and let the RGA look at it, it looks like ~50 ppm He....not
5 ppm like it should be.  

Frankly, I doubt that I can make any definitive statement about the He
content of this catalyst.  I am a novice at mass spectroscopy.  Being an
expert at x-ray spectroscopy, I know how small my chances are of getting
the right answer on a trace analysis, especially with a known intereference
that is present in my system and cannot be resolved with my spectometer.

But that doesn't stop me from taking a look...<g>



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 09:34:00 1999
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Subject: Re: Murray: Case cell He artifact  6.14.99
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At 07:25 AM 6/24/1999 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>Please explain. For the energy of the reaction D + D -> He4, I have an
>energy of 23.8473 MeV. If the resultant He4 nucleus and gamma photon
>each have equal and opposite momenta, then I get an energy for the
>photon of 23.7715 MeV, and for the He4 nucleus of 75.78 keV in the
>centre of mass frame of the original two D nuclei.
>What am I missing?

    The angular momentum.  Think of deuterium as a dumbell, and He4 as a
baseball.  If the center of mass sum of the angular momentum is small, the
reaction can proceed.  (Note that this is a much bigger problem in hot
fusion.)
 
>>(There is also the problem that
>>deuterium has spin 1, and Helium 4 has spin 0.)

>Is the problem here that the photon has spin 1 (and isn't this the main
>reason that this reaction is so unlikely, i.e. the D's can be +1 and -1,
>but there isn't anything left for the photon)? (Or am I just showing my
>ignorance again ;)

    No, that is about it.  The sum of the deuteron spins is even which
means you must add another particle to balance the spins.  However, He4
doesn't have any intermediate energy states, so you have to involve a third
body in the left side of the equation (which can be a photon) such as:
photon + d + d --> He4 + photon.  This of course is not only a three body
interaction, but it is mediated by the electromagnetic force not the strong
force.

    Of course, when you go to "cold" fusion, these problems go away.  The
net angular momentum of the deuterons will be low, they can be in close
proximity for a long enough time for an EM mediated reaction, and in the
time they are close enough to react, a photon is very likely to come along.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 09:36:18 1999
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On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, Lynn Kurtz wrote:

> Last summer I got up to Anchorage for the first time. Among other things, I
> went to a square dance festival in Palmer. Beautiful country. Shoulda
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> looked you up :-)
> 
> --Lynn

Don't get hung up if you ain't got rythmn and yous has to ask.
Mischeviously,
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 09:36:50 1999
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Subject: Re: Murray: Case cell He artifact  6.14.99
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At 12:04 6/24/99 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote:

>Brown dwarfs are stars "too
>small" to initiate fusion, so they only radiate in the infrared (from
>gravitational contraction and infalling matter).  But where are they?  They
>should be all over the place, but there are only a few that have been
>found.

Could that situation be explained simply by their low luminosity...i.e
they're hard to see?




Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: DDT ...... toxic Mercury for Tungsten? (fwd)
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>	Dear Vo.,
>
>
>	In this contribution below, see flag.
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:50:26 -0400
>From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: RE: PLEC:  Substitute Mercury for Tungsten?
>Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:47:44 -0700
>Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
>
>At 02:06 PM 6/21/1999 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>Similar comments could be made about lots of
>>environmentalist bugaboos. For example, do you remember back in the 40's
>>and 50's, when the spraying machines drove through city streets, disgorging
>>enormous clouds of DDT into the air, and kids rode along behind them on
>>their bicycles, veering in and out of the clouds? I did that, 50 years ago,
>>and I, like you, am not aware of any symptoms yet. :-) Why do people
>>believe the bullshit? Because they assume that the leaders of the
>>environmentalist movement have good intentions--i.e., that they are looking
>>out for our interests rather than pursuing some fascistic hidden agenda of
>>their own.
>
>   DDT was banned because it was causing egg shells of birds to become
>thinner, causing more of them to break in the nest before hatching.  That's
>what Rachel Carlson's book Silent Spring was all about.

***{Yup, and it was totally bogus: the study from which that conclusion was
drawn had no control group and involved birds raised on a low calcium diet
in the absence of sunlight. Since either of the latter two conditions would
have been sufficient to produce thin-shelled eggs, the whole thing was a
piece of rubbish. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>
>
>	FLAG
>
>
>........ DDT is totally
>harmless to humans...............
>
>
>	NOTE    CAUTION
>
>	DDT is NOT harmless.
>	It would be a real mistake to treat this compound as harmless.

***{That's right. Bugs beware! :-) --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>__________________________________________________________________-
>
>
>
>
>
>   However, the environmental movement was not content to reduce the use of
>DDT, they wanted it all gone.  The replacements, however, are harmful to
>both birds and humans!

***{Absolutely correct. For practical purposes, DDT reacted with insects
only. As a result, it just sat there in the environment until an insect
came along. It didn't degrade at all. That meant it was hell for bugs, and
totally innocuous to just about anything else. DDT's replacements, on the
other hand, degrade rapidly--which means: they react with, and thus are
toxic to, virtually every living thing.

In the mind of a sane person, such facts would make DDT an ideal
insecticide: you wouldn't have to spray your crop again until the residue
from the last treatment was either used up killing pests, or was removed by
wind or rain; and that which was removed would be non-toxic. But the
environmentalists weren't deterred. They simply charged that DDT "persisted
in the environment," which was unarguably true, and accompanied the
statement with much howling and gnashing of teeth. Result: boobus
Americanus obligingly decided that DDT was a bad thing, and, thanks to the
support of scientifically illiterate journalists, political support for a
ban magically appeared.

Next, the EPA stepped into the situation, and a committee of experts was
created to make a recommendation regarding whether to ban DDT "to protect
the environment." In keeping with the perceived political realities, that
committee was stacked in advance with known proponents of a ban, but,
unfortunately for those who did the stacking, the deck included some real
experts, including Nobel Laureate Norman Borlaug. Result: when the evidence
had been examined and thoroughly debated by the committee and a vote was
taken, the result came out unanimously *against* a ban, and that was the
committee's recommendation. The stacked deck had become unstacked because
the scientific case against the ban was totally overwhelming. DDT, as the
committees internal debate had clearly demonstrated, *was history's
greatest saver of human life*. Banning it would be worse than banning
antibiotics, and everybody on the committee, when the dust settled,
recognized that state of affairs. So what happened? The answer: the fascist
scumbag who was head of the EPA at that time, William D. Ruckelshaus,
ordered the ban anyway, overriding the recommendation of his own panel of
experts! Result: nations around the world rushed to join the U.S. in
banning this "toxic" chemical and, in the decades that followed, increased
mortality from mosquito borne illnesses--e.g., malaria--took more than a
hundred million human lives.

Well, then, did the public confuse the largely political determination made
by the EPA with actual science? Of course they did! The reason is
straightforward: most people on this planet are, at the core of their
being, *evil*--which means: they place a higher priority on *fitting in*
than they place on knowing, and speaking, the truth. The sad fact of the
matter is that we live in a world where the vast majority of people are
obsessed with social expediency--a world in which vast numbers of people
are in the habit of avoiding lines of thought that undercut what they want
to believe--a world in which people will condone the most monstrous evils
imaginable, if refusal to do so would require them to think independently
and, as a consequence, to stand alone. In such a world, the largely
political determinations made about scientific questions by government
agencies and politically connected groups *are almost invariably* confused
with actual science by the public. Result: vast amounts of bad science is
routinely foisted off on the public with the backing of such agencies and
groups, and vast amounts of good science is routinely stifled due to their
opposition.

What the DDT episode demonstrated was that the American electorate is
dominated by idiots who respond to the emotional rather than to the
cognitive content of speech, and that the Founders should have placed a
high poll tax (e.g., 20 ounces of gold) in the Constitution itself, to keep
such people from voting. (Not the best solution, mind you, but one that
would not have required a wholesale rewriting of the Constitution.) Failure
to implement such limitations ensured the eventual demise of the Republic
and the rise of the fascist nightmare that we are living under today.

--Mitchell Jones}***

(Incidently, the Department of Agriculture from
>time to time permits the use of DDT because it is the most effective and
>safest insecticide available.  The most recent case I can remember is the
>Med fly scare in California a few years back.)
>
>                                        Robert I. Eachus
>
>with Standard_Disclaimer;
>use  Standard_Disclaimer;
>function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 09:51:10 1999
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Subject: Brown Dwarfs,   was.....
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At 11:36 AM 6/24/99 -0500, you wrote:
>At 12:04 6/24/99 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote:
>
>>Brown dwarfs are stars "too
>>small" to initiate fusion, so they only radiate in the infrared (from
>>gravitational contraction and infalling matter).  But where are they?  They
>>should be all over the place, but there are only a few that have been
>>found.
>
>Could that situation be explained simply by their low luminosity...i.e
>they're hard to see?

No.  Hubble has looked in regions that should have lots of them and found
few.  The problem is better studied in the red dwarf region than the brown
dwarf region though.  There is a cut off in mass below which the red dwarf
population disappears fairly dramatically.  

I should bite my tongue a little on the brown dwarf situation as I have
studied the red dwarf problem to greater detail.  But the problem
originates in the red dwarf area.  I think the population actually begins
to rise again back toward expectations as you get to smaller sizes
approaching planetary.  IOW, they are discovering lots of planets, which
are essentially mini versions of brown dwarfs.

BTW, these stars do burn some degree of nuclear reactions.  It just isn't
enough to heat up the core to full blown fusion energy production.  Put
another way, the heat conduction out to the surface is faster than the heat
production in the core.  So they can only burn the easiest nuclei such as D
and Li, and not H in any appreciable quantities.  So the fact that those
nuclei are present in small quantities means that they rate of burning is
really tiny.

I think that most of their heat is due to gravitational collapse, and not
fusion.

rt


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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:42:34 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Murray: 9.53 ug He adsorbed per gm activated carbon  6.23.99
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>June 23, 1999   Hello,  Luckily, the world-class library at LANL is only
>45 minutes away, and a very beautiful drive, too.  A computer search on
>"helium adsorption carbon" gave dozens of abstracts from Chemical
>Abstracts per year in recent years, and I was able to zerox some
>reports in full.
>
>"Adsorbent helium density measurement and its effect on adsorption
>isotherms at high pressure," P. Malbrunot, D. Vidal, J. Vermesse,
>Laboratoire d'Ingenierie des Materiaux et des Hautes Pressions, CRNS,
>Universite Paris-Nord, 93430 Villetaneuse, France, and
>R.Chahine, T. K. Bose, Institut de Recherche sur l'Hydrogene,
>Universite du Quebec a Trois-Rivieres, Quebec, Canada G9A 5H7:
>Langmuir 1997, 12, 539-544.  Chemical Abstracts 126: 148921
>
>The density of porous adsorbents is measured by "helium density",
>based on displacement of an equivalent helium volume. Helium has
>normally been assumed to have negligible He adsorption at room
>temperature, but as soon as 1960 Maggs gave evidence that this
>is a doubtful assumption.
>
>Malbrunot et al initially emptied each adsorbant: "The previous
>regeneration of the adsorbant was carried out at a temperature
>of 400 deg C under a vacuum of 10XE-3 Pa for 12 h."  Activated
>carbon, 1030 m2/gm, (GAC 250, CECA-ELF-ATOCHEM,France) was found
>at 25 deg C and 1 atm to adsorb 2.38XE-6 mol He per gm C, which
>at 4.003 gm/mole, gives 9.53XE-6 gm He -- about the same value
>found by F.A.P. Maggs, P.H. Schwabe, J.H. Williams, "Adsorption
>of helium on carbon: influence on measurement of density,"
>Nature June 18, 1960, p. 956-8, at 25 deg C and 1 atm.
>Meggs outgassed his adsorbants at 357 deg C for 24 h.
>
>Malbrunot studied a theoretical model: "We conclude that the
>validity of Monte Carlo simulations for adsorption, and of the
>hard sphere model as representative of the interaction between
>helium and various types of adsorbents, is fairly good." Thus,
>high levels of helium adsorption are not majorly explanable by
>subtle quantum effects or unique catalytic spots, but must be
>common to most activated carbons, as in the Ac-C studied by Maggs.
>
>If the various catalysts used by Case to produce He have the
>same adsorption capacity as the above, then 10 grams could store
>at room temperture and 1 atm 95.3 micrograms of He, 289 times
>the .33 ug found by George, Tanzella, and McKubre.  That leaves
>plenty of room to accomodate the fact that the Case catalyst
>was exposed only to air, and then at 3.4 atm about 3 times each
>to H2 and D2, enough, as my post of 6.21.99 shows, to adsorb
>.33 ug He, which would be gradually released by four weeks at
>200-210 deg C, with trace O2, N2, Cl2, and H2O etching the pore
>surfaces by forming CO, CO2, CCl4, while H2 and D2 form CH4.
>Convection currents and temperatures in the catalytic bed would
>differ for H2 and D2, as would reaction rates.  Some
>arrangements are bound to exist that show helium release with D2,
>but not H2.

***{The simple hypothesis that the heavier gases tend to displace lighter
ones from carbon, when adsorption is the mechanism of entrainment, seems to
fully explain both Russ George's result--D2 is slightly heavier than 4He,
while H2 is lighter--and also the industrial practice of using carbon to
scrub heavier gases out of helium. --Mitchell Jones}***

 Therefore, it is premature to claim that the Case
>cell shows evidence of nuclear reactions.
>
>It is interesting in recent days to see posts by many experts on
>the nonexistence of helium adsorption in activated carbon
>at room temperature at 1 atm, since a major report was published
>in Nature in 1960.

***{Good info, Rich. Thanks. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Rich Murray  Room For All
>1943  Otowi Drive
>Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505
>505-986-9103  505-920-6130  rmforall earthlink.net

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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:44:31 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Murray: 9.53 ug He adsorbed per gm activated carbon    6.23.99
Resent-Message-ID: <"TESh-1.0.Ua3.F4cSt" mx1>
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>At 07:44 6/24/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:
>
>>Rich and other people who use this information should realize that the
>>measured absorption applies to He at 1 atm not to 6 ppm in air....
>
>Good point, Ed.  Now that we know the carbon can retain significant He, do
>you think there is a significant possibility that carbon would selectively
>extract He from the atmosphere?  Because of the very small molecular size,
>maybe He atoms can fit into places in the carbon structure where nothing
>else can fit.  If that were the case then, over time while exposed to
>ordinary air, those places would fill with He, no?

***{Doubtful. Industry uses activated carbon to scrub argon out of helium.
Since there is a lot more argon in the air than helium, an He buildup in
the carbon due to adsorption from the air is not likely. That does not
mean, however, that there is no way for the He buildup to occur. (As Knuke
pointed out awhile back, the coconuts that were used to make the catalyst
may have come from Bikini Atoll, for all we know.) --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:41:08 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Testing for absorbed He
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>Vo:
>
>It has been suggested that Case cells at the end of a run, having produced
>He, have the catalyst removed and burned in O2 to test for absorbed He that
>might have been giving a false He signature.
>
>Sorry, won't work. There is a parallel between the Case and A&Z experiments,
>which I have pointed out. Both involve finely divided Pd. The definitive
>aspect of the A&Z work is that the Pd nanopowder is removed from the cathode
>shell after a run showing excess heat, and transferred to an elaborate mass
>spectrometer. The junk is burned off and then trapped by a getter. When the
>sample is heated to the vicinity of 1000 C, the He generated within the Pd
>powder begins to evolve.
>
>Now the Case catalyst evidently does not entrap the He so severely, but
>while we are spinning hypotheses we may as well admit that in a successful
>run He will be generated within the Pd catalyst which will evolve when the
>carbonaceous base is burned in oxygen -- which will assuredly generate the
>necessary heat.
>
>Thus a He signature upon combustion can be read as confirmation of He
>production from the CF reaction, not as evidence that He was trapped in the
>carbonaceous base before the run started.

***{The suggestion was to burn the carbon only, not the carbon *and* the
palladium. Surely there is a way to separate them before the test is done.
Hell, you could grind up the briquets and separate the Pd from the C by
shaking the resulting power into distilled water and centrifuging it, if
worse came to worse.

Anyway, given that the Pd and the C have been separated, a much higher
amount of He in the catalyst would support the entrained He theory, since
if the palladium were the source, half of the He would have been evolved
outward and half inward (into the carbon). (Note: since the emission of He
appeared to be roughly linear in Russ George's run, the entrained He theory
would require that there be vastly more helium in the carbon than the total
amount given off.)

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>One can always make such a test before the run, but then the catalyst will
>be mostly CO2. One could take a sample from the catalyst batch for a
>separate test, but this would leave the speculation that the run sample was
>not identical with the tested sample, since the source of each carbon piece
>did not have an audit trail certificate.
>
>Mike Carrell

***{Mike, I do not know enough about this experiment to supply a detailed
recipe about how to burn the catalyst at the end of the run to determine He
content, but I am sure it can be done, and I am also sure that something of
this sort must be done, if a convincing argument is to be made for the CF
hypothesis. (By the way, is there a URL where a paper describing this
experiment can be found?)

Another idea would be to place the used catalyst in a pure argon
atmosphere, and see if He would be given off. If the theory that the
heavier of the adsorbable gases will displace the lighter ones from carbon
is correct, then if large quantities of He are in fact entrained in the
carbon, the argon would displace it, and lots of He would show up in a mass
spec.

--Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 09:51:27 1999
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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:43:42 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel cells featured in Scientific American
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>On Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:46:46 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>[snip]
>>Frankly, this logic strikes me as far too compelling to ignore. It is so
>>compelling, in fact, that it must be specifically refuted, if fusion is to
>>be demonstrated in these experiments, and this statement applies whether
>>"cash poor" experimenters prefer to look elsewhere or not. How would that
>>be done? Simple: the experimenter, at the end of a helium producing run,
>>must burn (in pure oxygen) the specific carbon briquet that was used, and
>>measure the helium content of the resulting gases.
>>
>>--Mitchell Jones}***
>If they wait till after the experiment, then wouldn't they run the risk
>that most of the He had already been purged?

***{No. Since the rate of He production was linear with respect to time in
the Russ George experiment, it follows that the vastly greater portion of
the entrained He was still in the catalyst at the very end. If this had not
been the case, the rate of He production would have begun to level off.
--Mitchell Jones}***

>Perhaps better to divide the initial catalyst into two parts, burning
>one part in oxygen, and using the other portion in an experiment.
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 09:51:37 1999
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Ross,
yes of course, but you would have all the advantages of a liquid, self
healing electrode that wasn't toxic.
Remi.

On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, Ross Tessien wrote:

> At 08:25 AM 6/24/99 +0100, you wrote:
> >Ross,
> >I suggested Gallium kind of dispassionately and semi-flippantly. I
> >understand its reactive with water as Fred Sparber suggested but is there
> >a way to kind of 'reverse bias' it to stop it going into solution. I.e. if
> >I remember my electrochemical series with metals more +ve than the H
> >electrode, what if you biased it negative greater than its electrode
> >potential?
> >Remi.
> 
> That is just called "plating".  You can plate virtually anything out if you
> have enough potential as far as I know.  I am not a chemist though, I am an
> ME.  So I'm just remembering chemistry and the fact that you can plate
> metals out if you apply a voltage.
> 
> rt
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 09:57:57 1999
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Robert,
Chloro-acne is one of the symtoms of DDT over-exposure. I don't know much
about this but regulators are not all spoilers, misfits, jealous of other
people's research, commies and other excessive free marketiers insults.

SOAPBOX TIME!
The GM issue is getting out of hand. Let's have some ABSOLUTES, you create
a clone, you create a life. It's not for experiments or body-parts! It's
disgusting and evil.

Mad bad progress,
A cheapening of life for personal accolade and personal bank balance.
Remi.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 10:17:04 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>,
        Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Glow discharge information  KRI, Inc. info
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	Dear Jed,

	Forgive me if I missed some of the thread and am asking redundant
questions.  I am trying to get a feel.

	Classically, circa 1948 through 1970 "glow discharge" in the
chemical industry referred to a high voltage low current "soft" discharge
through gas and \-or vapor at reduced pressures.

	Is this the same "glow discharge"?

	Can you give me a discriptiove overview of the nature, quality,
property of the discharge itself ... and the conditions thereof.

			Thanks again,

			John

On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> John Schnurer asks "What is KRI?  Please." It is the company working with
> Mizuno. Scientists at KRI replicated the glow discharge CF experiment.
> 
> Mizuno reports that they used 4 liters of 0.2 mol of K2CO3 electrolyte in a
> Dewar vessel. The vessel has a transparent plastic top, which allows them
> to look down inside control the glow discharge. They pre-heated the water
> to 60 deg C and then ran the glow discharge until the temperature reached
> 86 deg C. In one sample run, total input was 226 kJ, and cell enthalpy was
> 329 kJ: 3089 grams water *4.184 * (86.1 deg C - 60.6 deg C). Heat release
> from the Dewar was 11.8 kJ and the enthalpy of the effluent gas was 7.6 kJ,
> so the total average input to output ratio was 1.54. In other runs, the
> input to output ratios have varied from as low as 1.06 to 2.81 maximum.
> 
> I did not find any mention of this experiment in
> http://www.kansai-ri.co.jp/index_e.html, but the experiment just started a
> few months ago. It looks like a large, professional corporate laboratory.
> 
> - Jed
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 10:19:07 1999
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Subject: Re: Just TRY IT, Scott!
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Scott Little writes:

>I'm already on it. The reason I left my vac system on all night two days
>ago was to try to get rid of the apparent D2 contamination that has
>resulted from many hours of having parts of the system full of D2 at
>near-atmospheric pressure.  As things stand right now, when I bleed air
>into the system and let the RGA look at it, it looks like ~50 ppm He....not
>5 ppm like it should be.  

Oops. Not good. Why do you need the vacuum system? Is it part of the mass
spec machine? If so, it sounds like it is permanently contaminated and it
may require factory service and new filters or whatever. The hi res mass
spec machines at SRI and Osaka University are very finicky and require
frequent servicing. They have to replace the . . . cryonic filters, I
believe they are called, or some kind of filter that traps everything but
helium.

I have heard that some people remove much of the D2 by burning the gas in
oxygen before the sample passes through the first filter. The filters are
expensive, and I think they want to keep them from filling up quickly.
Maybe you should scrub your vac system with pure oxygen?

I think that the concentration of helium in the carbon would have to be
extremely high for this theory to be valid, because, as several people have
pointed out, the emmission does not level off.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 10:20:08 1999
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rt wrote:

>Osmosis uphill works wonderfully.

It takes chemical energy though, as far as I know. Reverse osmosis takes
pressure, which also has to come from somewhere. I am reading chemistry
texts here about partial pressure Raoult's law . . . I admit it is over my
head.


  Go take a look at a tree some time and
>ask yourself, how did the water get from the ground to the tree tops.  Do
>you think that trees have little turbo pumps inside?   ;-)

If the process did not consume energy originally from sunlight the tree
would be a perpetual motion machine. You could drive a free energy machine
with maple trees instead of just collecting syrup.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 10:44:24 1999
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Subject: Re: Murray: 9.53 ug He adsorbed per gm activated carbon 6.23.99
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Ross Tessien wrote:

> >Rich and other people who use this information should realize that the
> >measured absorption applies to He at 1 atm not to 6 ppm in air.  The amount
> >of He absorbed goes down as the partial pressure is reduced. This is why I
> >was careful to note this condition in my post. Furthermore, this absorbed
> >He is very lightly bonded so that it is expelled easily.  The amount that
> >can absorb depends on the surface area since absorption involves only a
> >monolayer. When making a conclusion, one needs to be sure that all
> >variables are taken into account.
> >
> >Ed Storms
>
> Understood and I agree that the conditions are not equivalent.  But it
> doesn't mean that this mustn't be looked into.
>
> First of all, despite the fact that the He is at a small partial pressure,
> it is at the full 1 atm *pressure*.  In other words, the KE of the He
> particles corresponds to that pressure and temperature condition.

The KE is only define by temperature. It has no relationship to pressure in an
ideal gas, which helium is.  The pressure defines the Gibbs energy of the gas
and then only when partial pressure is used.

> Now, you place a thin metal film over the carbon, and if *that* now works
> like the osmotic membrane I have been talking about it could take up He
> through the thin metal film that precludes other molecular atmospheric
> constituents as they cannot penetrate as easily.

Considerable experience shows that helium penetrates all tested materials less
easily than other atmospheric constituents.  If you know of an exception, I
would be most interested.

The thin metal film I presume you refer to is the palladium.  Unfortunately,
for your model, the palladium is present as isolated small particles of
material, not a film. Your model, as well as those provided by other people,
would be more useful if it were consistent with what is actually the case
rather than what you would like to be the case.

> Again, I am not saying that this is what is going on.  But again, it would
> be easy to take some of the carbon from a successful test, grind it up in a
> vacuum or inert *known* gas, and then run it through the mass spec to see
> if it had a bunch of He in it.

Of course, this idea should be tested.  However, such a test is only easy to a
person who does not have to do it. Such a test, if done properly, would take at
least a week, provided the mass spectrometer was working properly. A less
complete test would be open to the same speculation as is being applied to the
original work. Eventually, either the helium-heat production relationship will
become so exact that no questions remain or, in desperation to find reasons for
lack of correlation, such a test will be run. We will just have to wait and see
which happens first.  Of course, Scott might want to take some of his valuable
time away from his replication to accommodate you and the other speculators.
You should apply the pressure to him rather than to vortex in general.

Ed Storms




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 10:49:32 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: LaViolette
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:47:29 -0400
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Vo,

I recently saw the video based on the book *Earth Under Fire* by Paul
LaViolette and found it to be intriguing.  I have not studied cosmology to
any depth and wonder if anyone would care to comment from a more
knowledgable standpoint about the reality of the periodic galactic center
ignitions and corresponding interpretations of myths and possible origins of
astrology.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert I. Eachus [mailto:eachus mitre.org]
> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 12:05 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Murray: Case cell He artifact 6.14.99
>
>
> At 08:43 PM 6/23/1999 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
> >   Could you explain further the absence of brown dwarfs?
>
>     Sure.  When gas clouds condense to form stars, observational data
> indicates a smooth spectrum of sizes, with smaller stars being more
> numerous.  (Look at the Russel-Hertzsprung diagrams.) Larger main sequence
> stars burn faster so they are less numerous.  Brown dwarfs are stars "too
> small" to initiate fusion, so they only radiate in the infrared (from
> gravitational contraction and infalling matter).  But where are
> they?  They
> should be all over the place, but there are only a few that have been
> found.  The astronomical consensus seems to be that fusion burning starts
> at a lower pressure and temperature than calculated, and most brown dwarfs
> are small enough to blow themselves apart on ignition.  So there is a gap
> in size between the largest brown dwarf that doesn't ignite, and the
> smallest red dwarf that can survive ignition.  Incidently, this implies
> that if Jupiter was much bigger, it would ignite, and some of the "hot
> Jupiters" found in short period orbit around nearby stars may accrete
> enough mass from the solar (stellar?) wind from the primary to ignite.
>
>                                         Robert I. Eachus
>
> with Standard_Disclaimer;
> use  Standard_Disclaimer;
> function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
>
>
>

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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Cornwall RO <R.O.Cornwall city.ac.uk>
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	What is GM ???

On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, Cornwall RO wrote:

> Robert,
> Chloro-acne is one of the symtoms of DDT over-exposure. I don't know much
> about this but regulators are not all spoilers, misfits, jealous of other
> people's research, commies and other excessive free marketiers insults.
> 
> SOAPBOX TIME!
> The GM issue is getting out of hand. Let's have some ABSOLUTES, you create
> a clone, you create a life. It's not for experiments or body-parts! It's
> disgusting and evil.
> 
> Mad bad progress,
> A cheapening of life for personal accolade and personal bank balance.
> Remi.
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 10:58:03 1999
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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:17:16 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Murray: 9.53 ug He adsorbed per gm activated carbon    6.23.99
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>>Rich and other people who use this information should realize that the
>>measured absorption applies to He at 1 atm not to 6 ppm in air.  The amount
>>of He absorbed goes down as the partial pressure is reduced. This is why I
>>was careful to note this condition in my post. Furthermore, this absorbed
>>He is very lightly bonded so that it is expelled easily.  The amount that
>>can absorb depends on the surface area since absorption involves only a
>>monolayer. When making a conclusion, one needs to be sure that all
>>variables are taken into account.
>>
>>Ed Storms
>
>Understood and I agree that the conditions are not equivalent.  But it
>doesn't mean that this mustn't be looked into.
>
>First of all, despite the fact that the He is at a small partial pressure,
>it is at the full 1 atm *pressure*.  In other words, the KE of the He
>particles corresponds to that pressure and temperature condition.
>
>Now, you place a thin metal film over the carbon, and if *that* now works
>like the osmotic membrane I have been talking about it could take up He
>through the thin metal film that precludes other molecular atmospheric
>constituents as they cannot penetrate as easily.

***{Now *this* is a solid hypothesis! Much better than the unlikely
possibility that the coconuts came from Bikini Atoll! (That was good, too,
of course: just about anything seems more likely than CF at this point,
though, of course, I very strongly hope that the CF hypothesis proves to be
correct.) --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Again, I am not saying that this is what is going on.  But again, it would
>be easy to take some of the carbon from a successful test, grind it up in a
>vacuum or inert *known* gas, and then run it through the mass spec to see
>if it had a bunch of He in it.
>
>I am not saying anything about the experiment quality directly.  I am
>saying that if it is so simple to build a high power version of this thing,
>then do it.  And if it is not, then do the tests to rule out the
>contamination paths.
>
>It sounded logical that the He is probably not coming in through the DeWar
>from your last post.  So, if they can establish that it isn't in the carbon
>either, then they have eliminated the possible contamination paths I know
>of in the experiment (ie, so long as there isn't any other material inside
>the experiment within which the He could be hiding and leaching out)
>
>It is easy to run a mass spec, it is easy to grind up carbon chunks or heat
>them or whatever, so it should be tested and verified.  If it isn't there,
>great, if it is, announce it.
>
>rt

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 10:58:05 1999
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 llege.edu>
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:54:22 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: DDT ...... toxic Mercury for Tungsten? (fwd)
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>At 02:36 AM 6/24/1999 -0400, John Schnurer wrote:
>
>>........ DDT is totally
>>harmless to humans...............
>>
>>
>>	NOTE    CAUTION
>>
>>	DDT is NOT harmless.
>>	It would be a real mistake to treat this compound as harmless.
>
>    DDT is as harmless to humans as water.

***{Yes! Years ago I read about a black gardener in South Africa who as
part of his duties had to periodically spray a solution of DDT on the
foliage, using a pump sprayer. When he found out that he had leprosy, he
became severely depressed and, believing the environmentalist bullshit
about DDT, he attempted suicide by drinking the contents of the pump
sprayer. However, the result was very frustrating: there was no detectible
effect whatsoever. One odd thing did happen, though: his leprosy, over the
next few weeks, mysteriously disappeared! --Mitchell Jones}***

You get too much of either in
>your lungs, it can kill you.  But if I were to eat DDT while you were
>drinking water, pound for pound, you would die first.  Not that I recommend
>trying the experiment, but people have eaten a pound of DDT to show how
>harmless it is, and some of those spray truck drivers ingested and inhaled
>more than their body weight in DDT without ill effects.
>
>    However, don't try this at home kiddies.  Most high DDT content
>pesticides also contain arsenic trioxide and other nasty stuff.
>
>                                        Robert I. Eachus
>
>with Standard_Disclaimer;
>use  Standard_Disclaimer;
>function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 11:07:53 1999
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Subject: Re: Just TRY IT, Scott!
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----- Original Message -----
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: Just TRY IT, Scott!

Jed wrote:


> rt wrote:
>
> >Osmosis uphill works wonderfully.
>
> It takes chemical energy though, as far as I know. Reverse osmosis takes
> pressure, which also has to come from somewhere. I am reading chemistry
> texts here about partial pressure Raoult's law . . . I admit it is over my
> head.

Not quite the same thing as osmotic pressure or capillary action,Jed. The
constant motion of
the atoms-molecules at a given temperature: 1/2 Mv^2 = kT, will drive the
separation (very slight enthalpy drop though). In gas diffusion the
Concentration Gradient  dictates that the smaller Helium atom can be driven
into pore volumes that are essentially a vacuum wrt the gas made up of the
larger air molecules.

There is a claim that Carbon Nanotubes can hold 2.5 lbs of Hydrogen/Lb
Carbon.

The Pore Volume of  the Activated Carbon Catalyst support for the
petrochemical industry is determined by the uptake of  Carbon Tetrachloride,
which precludes any numbers for the smaller atoms-molecules. Perhaps one
could use Helium for determining the nanopore volume.
>
>
>   Go take a look at a tree some time and
> >ask yourself, how did the water get from the ground to the tree tops.  Do
> >you think that trees have little turbo pumps inside?   ;-)
>
> If the process did not consume energy originally from sunlight the tree
> would be a perpetual motion machine. You could drive a free energy machine
> with maple trees instead of just collecting syrup.

LOL!  Think of  the hydropower that you could get with Sequoias. :-)

Regards,     Frederick
>
> - Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 11:23:18 1999
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Subject: Re: Sir Bill to you, sir
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At 11:43 AM 6/24/1999 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Fred wrote:
>
>>Well, he might have belonged to the Knights of Columbus.  :-)
>
>Well, okay, maybe . . . But he died 102 years before Columbus was born. On
>the other hand he was ahead of his time. Maybe he invented the secret
>handshake too. But who would he shake hands with, being the only member?
 
    Remind me never to mention Occam's (or Ockham's) Razor in this
newsgroup again!

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 11:24:37 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Just TRY IT, Scott!
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At 13:18 6/24/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Oops. Not good. Why do you need the vacuum system? Is it part of the mass
>spec machine? 

Yeah, they all operate at very low pressures...you can't have the ions
colliding with each other as they are being mass analyzed.  Dedicated
mass-spec analyzers have a sample handling system that bleeds the unknown
sample gas into the spectrometer at a controlled rate.

My system is kinda like a home-made mass-spec analyzer.  The spectrometer
itself, which is a brand new SRI unit known as a Residual Gas Analyzer, is
permanently mounted near the intake of the turbo pump in my vacuum system.
It was designed to monitor the "residual gas" in the vacuum system and the
pressure must be below 10^-4 torr for it to operate at all.  To "analyze"
an unknown sample, I have to arrange for the sample to bleed into the
vacuum system somehow.  I'm presently just using a super-fine needle valve.
 Because I can't control the bleed rate quantitatively, I'm limited to
ratiometric analyses.  For example, I can adjust the valve until the N2
pressure at the RGA is 1E-6 torr and then look to see if the He pressure is
5E-12 torr.  That's exactly what I did 3 days ago...and I observed about
5E-11 torr....10 times too much.

I've got the roughing pump motor rewired properly and the vac system is
running nicely now.  I'll try this He-in-air measurement again real soon
and report back.

BTW, I don't think a real mass spectroscopist would consider an RGA to be a
real analytical tool. It's resolution is 100's or 1000's of times worse
than a typical analytical mass spectrometer.  Its designated purpose is
vacuum diagnosis.  Brand new it cost ~100 times LESS than a serious
analytical mass spectrometer.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 11:35:04 1999
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Subject: Re: Murray: Case cell He artifact  6.14.99
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 11:36 AM 6/24/1999 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>At 12:04 6/24/99 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote:
>
>>Brown dwarfs are stars "too
>>small" to initiate fusion, so they only radiate in the infrared (from
>>gravitational contraction and infalling matter).  But where are they?  They
>>should be all over the place, but there are only a few that have been
>>found.
>
>Could that situation be explained simply by their low luminosity...i.e
>they're hard to see?
 
    No.  As I said above, they are fairly bright in the infrared, and even
brighter in radio wavelengths. (Or at least are expected to be.
Astronomers are still arguing about whether the very few candidates
detected are really brown dwarves.)  There should be tens of thousands
visible  to the infared telescopes on Earth and in space, but there are
only a half-dozen candidates.  (Why candidates?  There is no easy way to
distinguish a brown dwarf from some other postulated objects such as cores
of old stars that have been stripped of their outer layers by close passes
to other stars.  Look up "blue stragglers" to get more information on
this--some of the candidates could be old blue stragglers.) 

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Testing for absorbed He
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
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At 11:41 AM 6/24/1999 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>Vo:
>>
>>It has been suggested that Case cells at the end of a run, having produced
>>He, have the catalyst removed and burned in O2 to test for absorbed He that
>>might have been giving a false He signature.
>>
>>Sorry, won't work. There is a parallel between the Case and A&Z experiments,
>>which I have pointed out. Both involve finely divided Pd. The definitive
>>aspect of the A&Z work is that the Pd nanopowder is removed from the cathode
>>shell after a run showing excess heat, and transferred to an elaborate mass
>>spectrometer. The junk is burned off and then trapped by a getter. When the
>>sample is heated to the vicinity of 1000 C, the He generated within the Pd
>>powder begins to evolve.
>>
>>Now the Case catalyst evidently does not entrap the He so severely, but
>>while we are spinning hypotheses we may as well admit that in a successful
>>run He will be generated within the Pd catalyst which will evolve when the
>>carbonaceous base is burned in oxygen -- which will assuredly generate the
>>necessary heat.
>>
>>Thus a He signature upon combustion can be read as confirmation of He
>>production from the CF reaction, not as evidence that He was trapped in the
>>carbonaceous base before the run started.
>
>***{The suggestion was to burn the carbon only, not the carbon *and* the
>palladium. Surely there is a way to separate them before the test is done.
>Hell, you could grind up the briquets and separate the Pd from the C by
>shaking the resulting power into distilled water and centrifuging it, if
>worse came to worse.
>
>Anyway, given that the Pd and the C have been separated, a much higher
>amount of He in the catalyst would support the entrained He theory, since
>if the palladium were the source, half of the He would have been evolved
>outward and half inward (into the carbon). (Note: since the emission of He
>appeared to be roughly linear in Russ George's run, the entrained He theory
>would require that there be vastly more helium in the carbon than the total
>amount given off.)
>
>--Mitchell Jones}***
>
>>
>>One can always make such a test before the run, but then the catalyst will
>>be mostly CO2. One could take a sample from the catalyst batch for a
>>separate test, but this would leave the speculation that the run sample was
>>not identical with the tested sample, since the source of each carbon piece
>>did not have an audit trail certificate.
>>
>>Mike Carrell
>
>***{Mike, I do not know enough about this experiment to supply a detailed
>recipe about how to burn the catalyst at the end of the run to determine He
>content, but I am sure it can be done, and I am also sure that something of
>this sort must be done, if a convincing argument is to be made for the CF
>hypothesis. (By the way, is there a URL where a paper describing this
>experiment can be found?)
>
>Another idea would be to place the used catalyst in a pure argon
>atmosphere, and see if He would be given off. If the theory that the
>heavier of the adsorbable gases will displace the lighter ones from carbon
>is correct, then if large quantities of He are in fact entrained in the
>carbon, the argon would displace it, and lots of He would show up in a mass
>spec.
>
>--Mitchell Jones}***
>
>
>

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 11:39:51 1999
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Testing for absorbed He
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At 11:41 AM 6/24/1999 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>Another idea would be to place the used catalyst in a pure argon
>atmosphere, and see if He would be given off. If the theory that the
>heavier of the adsorbable gases will displace the lighter ones from carbon
>is correct, then if large quantities of He are in fact entrained in the
>carbon, the argon would displace it, and lots of He would show up in a mass
>spec.

    Whoops! It can be painful for a theory to trip over an ugly fact.
Activated carbon is used to remove neon from helium.  (It could be used to
remove the other "noble" gasses as well, but they are usually removed by
cooling the gas sufficiently, which also removes nitrogen, oxygen, carbon
dioxide, and water.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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GM, Genetic Modification.

On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, John Schnurer wrote:

> 
> 
> 	What is GM ???
> 
> On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, Cornwall RO wrote:
> 
> > Robert,
> > Chloro-acne is one of the symtoms of DDT over-exposure. I don't know much
> > about this but regulators are not all spoilers, misfits, jealous of other
> > people's research, commies and other excessive free marketiers insults.
> > 
> > SOAPBOX TIME!
> > The GM issue is getting out of hand. Let's have some ABSOLUTES, you create
> > a clone, you create a life. It's not for experiments or body-parts! It's
> > disgusting and evil.
> > 
> > Mad bad progress,
> > A cheapening of life for personal accolade and personal bank balance.
> > Remi.
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 11:46:19 1999
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References: <3.0.6.32.19990624121208.007e16c0 pop.mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:37:21 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Glow discharge information  KRI, Inc. info
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>	Dear Jed,
>
>	Forgive me if I missed some of the thread and am asking redundant
>questions.  I am trying to get a feel.
>
>	Classically, circa 1948 through 1970 "glow discharge" in the
>chemical industry referred to a high voltage low current "soft" discharge
>through gas and \-or vapor at reduced pressures.

***{Correct. Fluorescent and neon lighting are common examples. In such
cases, the current flow is uniformly distributed throughout the gaseous
medium, because conductive ions are uniformly distributed throughout that
medium. The Mizuno cell, however, does not exhibit uniformly distributed
current flow throughout the steam cloak that surrounds the cathode, and it
does not exhibit uniformly distributed current flow, either. Instead, there
are visible arcs appearing continuously in the medium, each emitting a
flash of light, and steam explosions result when such arcs strike the
electrolyte wall, thereby replenishing the steam that is being continuously
lost by recondensation and by convection. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>	Is this the same "glow discharge"?

***{No, it isn't a glow discharge at all, as I have pointed out to Jed
several times. He just keeps using that term out of pure stubbornness, as
far as I can tell. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>	Can you give me a discriptiove overview of the nature, quality,
>property of the discharge itself ... and the conditions thereof.
>
>			Thanks again,
>
>			John
>
>On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>> John Schnurer asks "What is KRI?  Please." It is the company working with
>> Mizuno. Scientists at KRI replicated the glow discharge CF experiment.
>>
>> Mizuno reports that they used 4 liters of 0.2 mol of K2CO3 electrolyte in a
>> Dewar vessel. The vessel has a transparent plastic top, which allows them
>> to look down inside control the glow discharge. They pre-heated the water
>> to 60 deg C and then ran the glow discharge until the temperature reached
>> 86 deg C. In one sample run, total input was 226 kJ, and cell enthalpy was
>> 329 kJ: 3089 grams water *4.184 * (86.1 deg C - 60.6 deg C). Heat release
>> from the Dewar was 11.8 kJ and the enthalpy of the effluent gas was 7.6 kJ,
>> so the total average input to output ratio was 1.54. In other runs, the
>> input to output ratios have varied from as low as 1.06 to 2.81 maximum.
>>
>> I did not find any mention of this experiment in
>> http://www.kansai-ri.co.jp/index_e.html, but the experiment just started a
>> few months ago. It looks like a large, professional corporate laboratory.
>>
>> - Jed
>>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 11:50:58 1999
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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:41:55 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: DDT ...... toxic Mercury for Tungsten? (fwd)
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>Robert,
>Chloro-acne is one of the symtoms of DDT over-exposure. I don't know much
>about this but regulators are not all spoilers, misfits, jealous of other
>people's research, commies and other excessive free marketiers insults.
>
>SOAPBOX TIME!
>The GM issue is getting out of hand. Let's have some ABSOLUTES, you create
>a clone, you create a life. It's not for experiments or body-parts! It's
>disgusting and evil.

***{Remi, in essence a clone is just a cell removed from a person's
body--e.g., from your forearm--placed in a yolk sac, and induced to
replicate therein. The fact that cloning is, at present, technologically
difficult to achieve, does not mean such a cell is any more a person when
it is in the yolk sac than it was when it was on your arm. A person is a
vastly more complex entity than a one-celled embryo (zygote), and much more
complex even than the entity which results when a zygote has replicated a
number of times. A person consists of billions of cells, differentiated
functional organs and body parts, a mind that has learned to use those body
parts at an elementary level, etc. While arguments can be made about the
exact point where personhood begins, the notion that it begins at the
single cell stage, or anywhere near that stage, is simply laughable. (If it
did, you would become a mass murderer when you pulled a scab off of your
arm. :-) Thus to claim that a person with a heart condition, for example,
would be "evil" if he were to pluck a cell from his forearm and use it to
produce a clone from which he then harvested a replacement heart, is a
non-sequitur. All that would be required to justify such a procedure would
be measures (e.g., preemptive brain surgery) to prevent the clone from
developing to the point of actual personhood. Hopefully, if research into
human cloning is permitted to move forward, it will soon be possible to
transplant the brains of old people into copies of the bodies they had when
they were young, thereby permitting human beings to live for hundreds of
years. Even from the societal standpoint, that would be a good thing, would
it not? (Doesn't it strike you as a terrible waste that people who have
achieved vast knowledge and understanding, by virtue of lifetimes of study
and thought, should simply become worm bait? Who, pray tell, benefits from
that?)  --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Mad bad progress,
>A cheapening of life for personal accolade and personal bank balance.
>Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 11:59:35 1999
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Brown Dwarfs,   was.....
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990624094109.009b9670 pop3.oro.net>
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 <3.0.5.32.19990624120455.01cbc760 spectre.mitre.org>
 <3.0.1.32.19990623204331.00854100 world.std.com>
 <3.0.5.32.19990623190508.009bd4b0 spectre.mitre.org>
 <3.0.1.32.19990623130000.00ab50b8 mail.eden.com>
 <3.0.6.32.19990623134142.007d7780 pop.mindspring.com>
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At 09:47 AM 6/24/1999 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote:
 
>I should bite my tongue a little on the brown dwarf situation as I have
>studied the red dwarf problem to greater detail.  But the problem
>originates in the red dwarf area.  I think the population actually begins
>to rise again back toward expectations as you get to smaller sizes
>approaching planetary.  IOW, they are discovering lots of planets, which
>are essentially mini versions of brown dwarfs.

    We could argue all day about whether some of the hot Jupiter planets
should be considered planets or not.  Jupiter is a planet by definition.
;-) But is something massing two Jupiters a planet?  What about ten?

>BTW, these stars do burn some degree of nuclear reactions.  It just isn't
>enough to heat up the core to full blown fusion energy production.  Put
>another way, the heat conduction out to the surface is faster than the heat
>production in the core.  So they can only burn the easiest nuclei such as D
>and Li, and not H in any appreciable quantities.  So the fact that those
>nuclei are present in small quantities means that they rate of burning is
>really tiny.

    I thought that more of the expected fusion heat was from carbon cycle
burning. Remember that deuterium actually absorbs heat in a stellar core
due to stripping.  (d + X --> p + n + X) but in any case, total fusion heat
is expected to be significantly less than from gravity.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: DDT ...... toxic Mercury for Tungsten? (fwd)
Cc: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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At 05:56 PM 6/24/1999 +0100, Cornwall RO wrote:

>Chloro-acne is one of the symtoms of DDT over-exposure. I don't know much
>about this but regulators are not all spoilers, misfits, jealous of other
>people's research, commies and other excessive free marketiers insults.

   Cloroacne is a symptom of dioxin exposure.  The dioxin content of DDT is
usually very small, but in part it depends on the manufacturing process.  I
believe that one of the recommendations of the EPA committee that looked at
the issue of DDT use was to reduce contaminants.

   However, I never said that all regulators were spoilers,...  But there
are a few decisions where the government should bite the bullet and admit
that the decision was wrong and not based on good science, or any science
at all.  My three hot buttons are thalidomide (should not be used by
pregnant women, but is much better for cancer patients than opiates), DDT
(Seldane is probably worse for birds, and is much worse for humans), and
cyclamates (Mice exposed to high doses of a mixture of 90% saccarine

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
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Subject: Re: DDT ...... toxic Mercury for Tungsten? (fwd)
Cc: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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At 05:56 PM 6/24/1999 +0100, Cornwall RO wrote:

>Chloro-acne is one of the symtoms of DDT over-exposure. I don't know much
>about this but regulators are not all spoilers, misfits, jealous of other
>people's research, commies and other excessive free marketiers insults.

   Cloroacne is a symptom of dioxin exposure.  The dioxin content of DDT is
usually very small, but in part it depends on the manufacturing process.  I
believe that one of the recommendations of the EPA committee that looked at
the issue of DDT use was to reduce contaminants.

   However, I never said that all regulators were spoilers,...  But there
are a few decisions where the US government should bite the bullet and
admit that the decision was wrong and not based on good science, or any
science at all.  My three hot buttons are thalidomide (should not be used
by pregnant women, but is much better for cancer patients than opiates),
DDT (Seldane is probably worse for birds, and is much worse for humans),
and cyclamates (Mice exposed to high doses of a mixture of 90% saccharine
and 10% cyclamates get cancer.  Mice given 100% saccharine get cancer.
Quick!  Ban cyclamates.  Incidently, our neighbors to the north got it
right--they banned saccharine.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
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function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, Mitchell Jones wrote:
> >SOAPBOX TIME!
> >The GM issue is getting out of hand. Let's have some ABSOLUTES, you create
> >a clone, you create a life. It's not for experiments or body-parts! It's
> >disgusting and evil.
> 
> ***{Remi, in essence a clone is just a cell removed from a person's
> body--e.g., from your forearm--placed in a yolk sac, and induced to
> replicate therein. 
An identical twin is a clone that deosn't make them an object, just a
medical curiosity. Surely its different when you take DNA and put it into
an environment where it can become a full human.

> While arguments can be made about the
> exact point where personhood begins, the notion that it begins at the
> single cell stage, or anywhere near that stage, is simply laughable. 
Yeah, I'm not an anti-abortionist, I just don't see it as routine birth
control.

> Thus to claim that a person with a heart condition, for example,
> would be "evil" if he were to pluck a cell from his forearm and use it to
> produce a clone from which he then harvested a replacement heart, is a
> non-sequitur. 

No. You would have created all the surrounding bits that make a human. The
whole really is greater than the sum of the parts here. Where do you stop?
If this idea of sacrificing young for old, weak for the powerful
continues?:

Regard all children as spare parts.
Regard the under-class as spare parts. (They do already - go to india or
China if you want a kidney)

Hell! Why not, extending the argument beyond gm, do these:
.Use the underclass to concentrate toxic/rare metals - mix there drinking
water. We can give them 'cremation credits' in turn for income support.
.Feed, yes feed the underclass - themselves! A la Soylent Green!

All perfectly rational, objective but not moral.

> All that would be required to justify such a procedure would
> be measures (e.g., preemptive brain surgery) to prevent the clone from
> developing to the point of actual personhood. 

No, you mean kill a brain, destroy the person. No. All this to prolong the
life of someone who has already lived. A clone is not the same person or
some growth or offshoot. This has overtones of the sickening snuff videos
were perverts kidnap people (usually children) and kill them in the act of
sex for their pleasure.

> Hopefully, if research into
> human cloning is permitted to move forward, it will soon be possible to
> transplant the brains of old people into copies of the bodies they had when
> they were young, thereby permitting human beings to live for hundreds of
> years. Even from the societal standpoint, that would be a good thing, would
> it not? (Doesn't it strike you as a terrible waste that people who have
> achieved vast knowledge and understanding, by virtue of lifetimes of study
> and thought, should simply become worm bait? Who, pray tell, benefits from
> that?)  --Mitchell Jones}***

Mathematicians aren't much good after mid-thirties, most wunderkinds
expire by a similar time (Mozart, Schubert). We all run out of ideas. Old
age is a time of reflection, wisdom and guiding of youth. 'Grandparents
aren't meant to live longer than their grandchildren' (Cocoon). Mik
Jagger struts his stuff but ain't he had enough satisfaction?

Yes, extend life but keep to the same pattern. It's fun watching people
change and become different people. It's fun to see people in their teens
and think - what prats! Part of staying young is feeling that age BUT you
can never be that age again - unless one can have a brain wipe and become
an absolute beginner again. It's fun (yes it is!) to come up against an
older establishment and think 'you know nothing' 'two fingers to you
matey, I'll do it anyway'.

> 
> >
> >Mad bad progress,
> >A cheapening of life for personal accolade and personal bank balance.
> >Remi.

Yep! 
Remi.

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Subject: Re: Just TRY IT, Scott!
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At 01:05 PM 6/24/1999 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>>Osmosis uphill works wonderfully.
>
>It takes chemical energy though, as far as I know. Reverse osmosis takes
>pressure, which also has to come from somewhere. I am reading chemistry
>texts here about partial pressure Raoult's law . . . I admit it is over my
>head.
 
   In osmosis water flows to the side of the membrane with a higher
concentration of salt or other solutes.  In reverse osmosis, pressure is
used to force water through a membrane leaving the salt behind.  The
greater the salinity difference, the greater the pressure required.

   Diluting salt water releases a lot of energy.  I think that there still
are some power plants in Europe driven by salinity gradients.  (The Dutch
loved it when making new land.  You flow river water through an osmotic
barrier into an area with lots of salt.  The water is drawn in to dilute
the salt.  Run the now salty water through low head turbines to the ocean
and repeat.  When the land is no longer salty, move to a different holding
pond.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
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On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, Robert I. Eachus wrote:

>    Cloroacne is a symptom of dioxin exposure.  
Thank you.

>    However, I never said that all regulators were spoilers,...  But there
> are a few decisions where the government should bite the bullet and admit
> that the decision was wrong and not based on good science, or any science
> at all.  My three hot buttons are thalidomide (should not be used by
> pregnant women, but is much better for cancer patients than opiates), DDT
> (Seldane is probably worse for birds, and is much worse for humans), and
> cyclamates (Mice exposed to high doses of a mixture of 90% saccarine
> 
Yes, hard cases bad law. It's the all consuming power that these mandarins
have. Lassiez faire sounds fine but there are just too many people
motivated for the wrong reasons and we can't rely on the consumer to
exercise caution, often they don't understand the issues.

Yes, farming has really been screwed up in this country. BSE is now not
even thought to be due to the animal animalfeed. Also all the health
scares, we are now told to boil our veg to smithereens. Intuitively that's
nonsense.

It seems one must be pragmatic. One must look for the vested interests:
scientific, finacial and benighted.
Remi.

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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:33:49 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Testing for absorbed He
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>At 11:41 AM 6/24/1999 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>Another idea would be to place the used catalyst in a pure argon
>>atmosphere, and see if He would be given off. If the theory that the
>>heavier of the adsorbable gases will displace the lighter ones from carbon
>>is correct, then if large quantities of He are in fact entrained in the
>>carbon, the argon would displace it, and lots of He would show up in a mass
>>spec.
>
>    Whoops! It can be painful for a theory to trip over an ugly fact.
>Activated carbon is used to remove neon from helium.  (It could be used to
>remove the other "noble" gasses as well, but they are usually removed by
>cooling the gas sufficiently, which also removes nitrogen, oxygen, carbon
>dioxide, and water.)

***{I am not sure what your point is here. The only "theory" involved is
that heavier absorbable gases tend to displace lighter ones in the carbon.
Are you denying this? Or are you merely claiming that neon removal is a
larger problem than argon removal, for companies that purify helium? If the
latter, then I must admit that I am surprised, but I don't see how this
"trips" my theory.

Anyway, if that is all you are saying, then for the record my recollection
is that most helium is offgassed from oil wells--it has been years since I
read about this topic--and that in most cases argon is a larger contaminant
than neon. Is this incorrect? If so, what is the process that leads to such
a result?

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>                                        Robert I. Eachus
>
>with Standard_Disclaimer;
>use  Standard_Disclaimer;
>function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 12:59:44 1999
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Subject: Re: Just TRY IT, Scott!
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At 01:05 PM 6/24/99 -0400, you wrote:
>rt wrote:
>
>>Osmosis uphill works wonderfully.
>
>It takes chemical energy though, as far as I know. Reverse osmosis takes
>pressure, which also has to come from somewhere. I am reading chemistry
>texts here about partial pressure Raoult's law . . . I admit it is over my
>head.

The atmosphere HAS a pressure head of 14.7 psi.  Just because the He is at
a small partial pressure, meaning small percentage of the total gases,
doesn't mean that it is not AT that atmospheric pressure, it is.  The
pressure of the helium particles, or more accurately, the KE of the helium
particles is a function of  the temperature of the atmosphere.  That KE is
what allows particles to ballistically penetrate into a lattice structure.

Chemists treat this as "diffusion" and other names when considering the
bulk process.  But don't forget that at the atomic level everything is just
a matter of particles interacting with other particles.  I'll avoid wave
mechanics here for this discussion as that is essentially the same thing
but treated in a more complex manner.


>
>
>  Go take a look at a tree some time and
>>ask yourself, how did the water get from the ground to the tree tops.  Do
>>you think that trees have little turbo pumps inside?   ;-)
>
>If the process did not consume energy originally from sunlight the tree
>would be a perpetual motion machine. You could drive a free energy machine
>with maple trees instead of just collecting syrup.
>
>- Jed

Of course it consumes energy, and you can build a "perpetual motion
machine" out of the tree sap, it just won't output very much total power.

As for the mechanism, you allow vaporization at the top of the tree via
leaves perspiration to reduce the internal pressure of the cells, and you
have the weight of the atmosphere compressing the liquid in the ground.
So there are some initial driving mechanisms.  But the vapor pressure of
water only allows water to be "pulled" up a tube 32 feet prior to
cavitating.  IOW, a 32 foot head of water has a pressure of 14.7 psi,  or 1
bar.

Trees are far taller than this.  They manage the pumping of the water to
heights greater than 32 feet because of the osmotic membrane effect.  A
bunch of cells each contribute a small amount of pressure head to keep the
flow going upward.  You cannot "suck" water up to the top of a 300 foot
redwood, you must pump it.  

The same could be happening in the Case experiment and this possibility
must be ruled out somehow before anyone should shout too much about that
experiment as being "proof" of the CF phenomena.

The Case experiment is a very different system than the PF cells, almost
certainly is due to a completely different process / reaction, and should
be studied but not touted as proof, yet.

rt



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 13:27:37 1999
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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:24:15 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: DDT ...... toxic Mercury for Tungsten? (fwd)
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>On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>> >SOAPBOX TIME!
>> >The GM issue is getting out of hand. Let's have some ABSOLUTES, you create
>> >a clone, you create a life. It's not for experiments or body-parts! It's
>> >disgusting and evil.
>>
>> ***{Remi, in essence a clone is just a cell removed from a person's
>> body--e.g., from your forearm--placed in a yolk sac, and induced to
>> replicate therein.
>An identical twin is a clone that deosn't make them an object, just a
>medical curiosity. Surely its different when you take DNA and put it into
>an environment where it can become a full human.
>
>> While arguments can be made about the
>> exact point where personhood begins, the notion that it begins at the
>> single cell stage, or anywhere near that stage, is simply laughable.
>Yeah, I'm not an anti-abortionist, I just don't see it as routine birth
>control.
>
>> Thus to claim that a person with a heart condition, for example,
>> would be "evil" if he were to pluck a cell from his forearm and use it to
>> produce a clone from which he then harvested a replacement heart, is a
>> non-sequitur.
>
>No. You would have created all the surrounding bits that make a human. The
>whole really is greater than the sum of the parts here. Where do you stop?

***{As I explained in the post to which you are responding, you arrest the
development of the brain *before* personhood begins. Technologically, that
may be a difficult problem. However, once it has been done, the moral issue
will have been laid to rest. (If it isn't a person, it is property, and its
owner can do with it as he wishes so long as he respects the rights of
others. --Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

>
>> All that would be required to justify such a procedure would
>> be measures (e.g., preemptive brain surgery) to prevent the clone from
>> developing to the point of actual personhood.
>
>No, you mean kill a brain, destroy the person.

***{A gnat has a brain. Is it a person? *Obviously not.* A chicken has a
brain. Is it a person? *Obviously not*. A cat has a brain. Is it a person.
*Obviously not*. Therefore, if we intervene somewhere in the clone's
development before the brain has reached one of these stages, we are
obviously *not* destroying a person. Such interventions are no different
than chopping a limb off of a tree, or threading a piece of pipe: they have
no moral component whatsoever. --Mitchell Jones}***

No. All this to prolong the
>life of someone who has already lived. A clone is not the same person or
>some growth or offshoot. This has overtones of the sickening snuff videos
>were perverts kidnap people (usually children) and kill them in the act of
>sex for their pleasure.

***{A clone is not a person at all, if an appropriate intervention is made
before it has had a chance to *become* a person. Thus your comments about
snuff videos and kidnappings are simply irrelevant: if a scientist uses a
gnat, or a chicken, or a cat for research purposes, he cannot possibly be
guilty of murder or of kidnapping, because there is no *person* involved.
--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>> Hopefully, if research into
>> human cloning is permitted to move forward, it will soon be possible to
>> transplant the brains of old people into copies of the bodies they had when
>> they were young, thereby permitting human beings to live for hundreds of
>> years. Even from the societal standpoint, that would be a good thing, would
>> it not? (Doesn't it strike you as a terrible waste that people who have
>> achieved vast knowledge and understanding, by virtue of lifetimes of study
>> and thought, should simply become worm bait? Who, pray tell, benefits from
>> that?)  --Mitchell Jones}***
>
>Mathematicians aren't much good after mid-thirties, most wunderkinds
>expire by a similar time (Mozart, Schubert). We all run out of ideas. Old
>age is a time of reflection, wisdom and guiding of youth. 'Grandparents
>aren't meant to live longer than their grandchildren' (Cocoon). Mik
>Jagger struts his stuff but ain't he had enough satisfaction?

***{Amazing. Who in the hell are you to tell your elders how they ought to
live, or how smart they are, or when they have to die? From what you have
said thus far, I assume that you advocate government intervention to
prevent research into human cloning. If so, then you are an advocate of
mass murder not merely of the present "older generation," but also of your
parents and relatives and, eventually, of yourself and your children. And
yet you dare to lecture the rest of us about "morality"!  --Mitchell
Jones}***

>
>Yes, extend life but keep to the same pattern. It's fun watching people
>change and become different people. It's fun to see people in their teens
>and think - what prats! Part of staying young is feeling that age BUT you
>can never be that age again - unless one can have a brain wipe and become
>an absolute beginner again. It's fun (yes it is!) to come up against an
>older establishment and think 'you know nothing' 'two fingers to you
>matey, I'll do it anyway'.

***{Why don't you lay your cards on the table, Remi? Say openly that you
think government should force older people to remain in deteriorating
bodies and suffer the painful infirmities of age, up to and including
death, so that you can have "fun" watching it happen! --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>>
>> >
>> >Mad bad progress,
>> >A cheapening of life for personal accolade and personal bank balance.
>> >Remi.
>
>Yep!
>Remi.

***{If people like you succeed in preventing research that could defeat
death itself, you become mass murderers on a scale that will put all of the
previous scum of human history, including Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Idi
Amin, Genghis Khan, Tamerlane, Ivan the Terrible, and on and on, to shame.
They will be paragons of virtue, compared to you. --Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 13:29:17 1999
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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:26:24 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Glow discharge information  KRI, Inc. info
In-Reply-To: <v04011707b398295427a6 [207.8.61.10]>
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John Schnurer asks about electrolysis glow discharges. I do not know enough
about it to answer. There are some good papers about it. See: Herbert H.
Kellogg, "Anode Effect in Aqueous Electrolysis," Journal of the
Electrochemical Society, April 1950. Ask Hal Fox for a copy.
(Halfox slkc.uswest.net)

Mitchell Jones, who always knows enough to answer anything, writes:

	No, it isn't a glow discharge at all, as I have pointed out to
	Jed several times. He just keeps using that term out of pure
	stubbornness, as far as I can tell.

No, as I explained several times, I call it glow discharge because everyone
else does, especially Mizuno. Actually he calls it "hakkou houden" (glow
discharge) but in the body of the paper he usually calls it simply "hakkou"
meaning glow, radiation or luminescence, according to my trusty 1954
Kenkyusha dictionary. This word which should not be confused with its nine
homonyms (words pronounced the same but spelled with different characters):

Publication; issue
Departure
Leaving port; set sail
Departure again, but with a different second character
Fermentation; zymosis
A pale, faint gray light
Ill-fated
A white light or corona
The eight directions of the world, as in "hakkou-ichiu," the WWII era
imperialistic all-the-world-one-family principle

Not to be confused with "hakkyou," meaning lunacy, or "hako" meaning box,
case or casket. A person could engineer an impressive tongue twister in
Japanese about the ill-fated zymogen who was forced to suspend publication
and depart from a port in support of the all-the-world-one-family
principle. It would be like the classic: "kouka wa kouka ga kouka ga aru"
meaning "elevated railroads are expensive but efficient" or "Ura niwa niwa,
niwa niwa niwa-tori ga iru." ("There are two chickens in the yard and two
in the backyard too.")

Yes, a person with time on his hands could engineer quite a sentence with
"hakkou" but who in this audience would appreciate it?

I don't make the rules or invent terminology. I have no idea what the glow
discharge phenomenon is, and I do not *necessarily* accept your judgement
in all matters. So if you don't mind, Mitchell, I will stick with the
standard terminology until the experts come around to accepting your point
of view. Since I have already explained my reason for calling it this, I do
not understand why you harp on about the matter.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 13:31:19 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: RE: Case & Arata
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:26:53 -0400
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>Knuke,
>
>You wrote:
>> Trace amounts of U in the carbon will over time produce daughter products,
>> Radium, and radon being the last of the normal chain.  An
>> accelerated decay
>> of Radon may produce the He under the Case protocol.  This is not meant to
>> be a divide and conquer type of debunking statement, but rather a
>> statement
>> of possible cause.  Indeed, if say, a 2 ppb trace of U were to be found in
>> the successful Case catalysts, I could easily live with one heating my
>> house.  The nanotube structure may also play a role in the successful
>> reaction pathway/mechanism.  I'm not suggesting any magic, just a possible
>> cause and effect relationship for the data that is not that far
>> fetched.  It
>> should be something that is considered and looked for in future
>> examinations.

Ed wrote:
>Well, fine, but how do you explain the lack of helium detected in the
>control cell with deuterium and catalyst?  From what I see, this criticism
>alleges that D2, because it is close to the mass of helium, nudges trapped
>helium from the catalyst.  To me, this is a real stretch and if it is
>expected to be taken seriously, it must have some substantiation,
>particularly in view of the fact that McKubre has considered all such
>possible sources of stored helium.

Hi Ed,

I don't buy the He storage, the clathrate, or the osmosis suggestions at
all, either, although that is simply based on known probabilities.  It
doesn't rule them out.  My suggestion is more subtle, difficult to find, and
involves an actual CF mechanism.  If a trace quantity of U were in the
carbon (not unlikely), and the carbon was filled with D2, then a reactions
may occur between the daughter products and the D2 during the decay.  The
possibility of the natural formation of sheets or nanotubes to focus the
direction of the the decay action, may also aid the reaction between U
daughters and D2.  U decays like popcorn normally, but, _given a directional
channel_, the daughters and some neutrons may have a mean free path area
where they can run down a gauntlet of D2 molecules causing collisions and
possible reactions. More reactions, say, than a simple decay in H2 or any
other gas.  Over a month's time in a sealed container, this could be the
reason for the He build-up.  There is also the possibility that the local EM
pulse released during the N decay may be channeled in a carbon tube.
Anything inside the tube would be affected and maybe enough to fuse. If this
is so, then properly roasted bamboo fibers may be used instead of the more
expensive manufactured carbon nanotubes.  I know that this is simplistic,
but considering there is no energy input, and no reactions like this have
been observed before with just carbon, I'm having to assume that a small
amount of trace U is providing the kicker.  The trace U would be difficult
to detect before the run, nearly impossible to simply flush out, and in
general, appear to have no significance until it was cooped up in the right
chamber.  Does that make more sense?

The easiest and cheapest way to check this is to simply start doping the
catalyst.  Infuse it with Radon with or without pressure before putting the
D2 in.  I've done this with water, and it's pretty easy.  It's too easy
actually.  I did it overnight without any pressure in an open container, and
unless you have any better ideas, I think it's better than just running the
experiment over and over.

Knuke

 
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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Subject: Re: Sir Bill to you, sir
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Robert I. Eachus writes:

	Remind me never to mention Occam's (or Ockham's) Razor in this
	newsgroup again!

Mention what? Uh . . . that would be the razor with which the barber shaves
all men in the village who do not shave themselves. Right?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 13:40:21 1999
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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:35:23 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: DDT ...... toxic Mercury for Tungsten? (fwd)
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Robert I. Eachus wrote:

>My three hot buttons are thalidomide (should not be used by
>pregnant women, but is much better for cancer patients than opiates) . . .

For the last several years thalidomide has been approved for use in the
U.S. for cancer and several other diseases, according to the New York
Times. Actually, once it is approved for anything, doctors can prescribe it
for whatever they want, but of course it comes with strong warnings about
pregnancy.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 13:42:47 1999
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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:45:06 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: SHC and Polar Bears
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At 8:31 AM 6/24/99, Lynn Kurtz wrote:
>At 03:05 PM 6/23/99 -0800, you wrote:
> I live about 50 miles North
>>of Anchorage, outside Palmer, in the Matanuska-Susitna valley, which is
>>rural, but not bush.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Horace Heffner
>>
>
>Last summer I got up to Anchorage for the first time. Among other things, I
>went to a square dance festival in Palmer. Beautiful country. Shoulda
>looked you up :-)
>
>--Lynn


Yes, that would have been nice.  Not many vorts come here.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Murray: 9.53 ug ... and history
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At 8:23 AM 6/24/99, Scott Little wrote:

[snip]
>Congratulations, Rich, on taking the trouble to look for data to support
>your "wild idea".  If you really want to make a good impression on folks,
>next time do the research first, then present your hypothesis.

Yes, Rich deserves a lot of credit for finding some data that indicates
carbon can hold helium.  Congratulations Rich!  However, the "wild idea" to
look at the carbon, good or bad, I think was mine.  Further, since the
effect is catalyst specific, information about carbon in general, other
that to open some otherwise closed eyes, is of limited use, since carbon
comes in so many forms.  It strikes me as absurd that "research" should be
necessary at all when the assertion, namely that "its in the carbon if it
is anywhere," is self evident and thoroughly supported in the following
summarized posts, which contain other overlooked ideas:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: debate on Case cell He artifact  6.15.99
At 8:22 AM 6/16/99, Horace Heffner wrote:
[snip]
While we are at it, I think the carbon itself provides a likely suspect for
a non-nuclear explanation of the Helium results.  Carbon, or carbon exposed
to hydrogen gas, may be capable of holding helium and gradually releasing
it at higher temperatures.  A hydrogen gas of a sufficient velocity might
even provide a kind of scrubbing effect.  The explanation for the
difference between D2 and H2 is that convection cells tend to form in the
D2 environment, which scrubs the helium from the carbon once it is hot.  D2
might also be more effective due to its heavier molecular weight.
Differing catalysts might have differing affinities for helium in the
experiment temperature range.  The obtained results require uptake at a low
temperature and slow outgassing at a higher temperature, but only in a
scrubbing environment.  A control experiment could involve dissolving the
Pd out of the catalyst and running with carbon only.  Exposing the carbon
to an acid might change the carbon though, purging it of helium.  A better
idea for a control experiment might be to use the same catalyst as before,
but include a fan inside both the H2 and D2 cells.  If this hypothesis is
correct, then the H2 cell will outgas helium at a similar rate to the D2
cell, or at least at an improved and hopefully detectable rate.  It also
appears the experiment run times should be longer, to see if there is a
tailing off of He production, or a slow rate of production in the H2 cell.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: debate on Case cell He artifact  6.15.99
At 2:39 PM 6/16/99, Horace Heffner wrote:
I think the possibility of temperature dependent carbon uptake of He in
some of the catalysts is sufficient to justify the effort to add a stirrer
to the cells to eliminate both the calorimetry effects and the possible
helium scrubbing effect of convection known to be present in at least some
D2 cells and but not in the same cells loaded with H2, based on Scott
Little's experiments.  The cells are stainless steel, so a magnetic stirrer
might be used.  It might require attaching a fan blade to adapt to the gas
environment.  This is not a very big effort.  An alternative is to do He
uptake studies the various catalysts, which would take far more time, I
think.

It seems to me to be unacceptable to simply assume a specific catalyst can
not hold helium.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: debate on Case cell He artifact  6.15.99
At 12:32 AM 6/17/99, Horace Heffner wrote:

The following items might be of importance:

(1)  Presence of nanotubes in the carbon
(2)  Presence of graphite in the carbon
(3)  Age of the catalyst
(4)  Possible presence of He contamination in selected
      grains in the catalyst batch

It is now well known that nanotubes can store vast amounts of hydrogen.
Nanotubes come in various sizes.  Possibly they can store vast quantities
of helium too. A catalyst made in a hot oxygen free environment might form
nanotubes.  The use of inert gasses in the process of forming the catalyst,
e.g. argon, might be a possible source of contamaination.  The history and
method of catalyst formation is very important, and making assumptions
about these items regarding any specifc quantity of a specific batch of a
specific catalyst is less than ideal.  Similarly, layered graphite or
graphite fragments may have a special ability to hold helium.

[snip]
If a batch is formed by insufficiently mixing together two other partial
batches, then mixed results would be expected, especially if one batch were
contaminated with extra helium.

[snip]
It seems useful that measurement of and controls for helium uptake in the
catalyst are required.

[snip]
If the helium is supplied from a powerful storage mechanism, like
nanotubes, the outgassing might look linear for a long time.


[snip]
The Case cell strikes me as astonishingly different from other experiments
because the conditions are almost ambient.  There is very little in the way
of energy input.  It is in a class by itself, even substantially distanced
from Arata.  I think it deserves special scrutiny, especially in light of
Scott Little's results.


[snip]
...  it still seems to me the catalyst, especially the carbon, warrants
significant additional scrutiny before declaring victory.  It is known that
the difference in convection patterns between D2 and H2 can cause
calorimetry problems.  If a scrubbing effect exists, the cell withthe most
convection should scrub out the most helium.  Scott Little's experiemtn
showed no evidence of convection in the H2 cell, if I recall correctly.
For McKubre to declare convection in the two types of cells identical, he
would have to make a quantitative measurement of the convection all over
the cell, which is not feasible.  A fan will break up convection patterns,
and make results between two differing gasses in the same cell comparible.
This seems like a minimum approach.  Detailed studies of the catalyst
helium uptake capabilities at various temperatures and gas velocities, and
initial helium content, might also be worthwhile.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Re: Murray: Rothwell: Storms: the kettle and the pot 6.17.99
At 10:22 PM 6/17/99, Richard T. Murray wrote:
>June 17, 1999
[snip]
>
>Returning to the Case cell, it seems inevitable that the catalyst
>will become little containers of He-- this has to be checked, and
>is easy to check. A month of 3.4 atm at 200-210 deg C will disrupt
>the briquets, which will be soaked with H2 or D2.  The convection
>patterns in the bed of catalyst and the temperature distribution
>may vary complexly with H2, compared to D2-- this has to be checked.
>Basic physics ensures that the D, twice as heavy as the H, will knock
>the He about more vigorously-- this has to be checked.  I bet that
>this is indeed the fatal artifact: Horace Heffner deserves great
>credit for envisioning it.
[snip]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Subject: Re: Murray: Rothwell: Storms: the kettle and the pot 6.17.99
At 8:54 AM 6/18/99, Horace Heffner wrote:
>At 10:11 AM 6/18/99, Edmund Storms wrote:
>>"Richard T. Murray" wrote:
>>
>>The hypothesis of Pd as a He sink has been clearly
>>
>>> refuted, thanks to the research data cited by Ed Wall, while Horace
>>> Heffner and I have developed the very next day,  a very promising
>>> idea, that trace U and Th in the 10 gr of Pd plated C will build up
>>> substantial He in the catalyst.
>
>
>Somehow I missed this in the original post.  I had no part in and in fact
>disagree with the "trace U and Th" hypothesis.
>
>
>>> Returning to the Case cell, it seems inevitable that the catalyst
>>> will become little containers of He-- this has to be checked, and
>>> is easy to check. A month of 3.4 atm at 200-210 deg C will disrupt
>>> the briquets, which will be soaked with H2 or D2.  The convection
>>> patterns in the bed of catalyst and the temperature distribution
>>> may vary complexly with H2, compared to D2-- this has to be checked.
>>> Basic physics ensures that the D, twice as heavy as the H, will knock
>>> the He about more vigorously-- this has to be checked.  I bet that
>>> this is indeed the fatal artifact: Horace Heffner deserves great
>>> credit for envisioning it.
>
>
>I appreciate the credit, but I am not sure this is that all that important,
>and it was mentioned secondarily in relation to the importance of the
>convection cell formation.   Also, I would like to clarify my statement
>that in Little's experiments that D2 exhibited convection when H2 did not.
>The critical fact is that in some circumstances, i.e. at some specific
>temperatures, D2 exhibits convection when H2 does not.  This is a an
>unusual case where chemical circumstances can be significantly affected by
>isotopic differences.  Since convection formation is so affected, it is
>reasonable to expect convection intensity, i.e. gas velocity, might also be
>different in the temperature range where both H2 and D2 form convection
>cells, and the particle momenta different as well.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Subject: RE: Case & Arata
At 9:05 AM 6/23/99, Horace Heffner wrote:
>At 4:18 AM 6/23/99, Akira Kawasaki wrote:
[snip]
>> I
>>don't wish to discourage anyone from following up on that lead if it does
>>anything to inform their thought process.
>>
>>Osmosis will not build up levels of helium in the cell above atmospheric in
>>the most fanciful interpretation.  Osmosis works on concentration gradient.
>>If that were the mechanism, it would not only have to be explained why it
>>did not happen in the control cell, but also why it worked *against* the
>>concentration gradient.
>
>
>The reason is that the atomic radius of helium is 0.49 angstroms. Hydrogen
>is 0.79 angstroms, plus it sticks to the carbon more tenaciously.  Oxygen
>and nitrogen also have larger radii, at 0.65 and 0.74 angstoms.  The radii
>are smaller in molecular form, but then there are two atoms in tandom.
>Nanontubes, as well as carbon sheet separations come in various sizes.  The
>size of the particle can be significant in the parcentage of helium
>absorbed if the space size is small.  It is known that nanontubes can store
>vast amounts of hydrogen.  It is not unreasonable then that carbon, in some
>form, may therfore be able to store large amounts of helium as well.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 14:03:59 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Subject: RE: Case & Arata
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:02:26 -0400
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Knuke,

I have to admit to being out of my depth on this stuff.  Wouldn't Ed Storms
or particularly Scott Little have found the U decay with his very sensitive
method?

<snip>
> Does that make more sense?

Well, maybe, but not to me.
>
> The easiest and cheapest way to check this is to simply start doping the
> catalyst.  Infuse it with Radon with or without pressure before
> putting the
> D2 in.  I've done this with water, and it's pretty easy.  It's too easy
> actually.  I did it overnight without any pressure in an open
> container, and
> unless you have any better ideas, I think it's better than just
> running the
> experiment over and over.
>
> Knuke

I don't follow.  What would radon do?

Well, as far as the Case experiment at NERL, we can only look for excess
heat at this stage (we hope to get retrospective helium analysis done if we
get clear excess heat) and I hope to use the new flow calorimeter do to this
soon.  We have seen clear excess temperature only once, and that was when
Les Case was here doing the experiment with Gene Mallove.  Unfortunately, I
was not here yet, so I am working from that lab notebook and hints from
McKubre, etc.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

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References: 
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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:41:53 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Glow discharge information  KRI, Inc. info
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[snip]

MENTAL GLITCH ALERT!!!!!!!!!!

>***{Correct. Fluorescent and neon lighting are common examples. In such
>cases, the current flow is uniformly distributed throughout the gaseous
>medium, because conductive ions are uniformly distributed throughout that
>medium. The Mizuno cell, however, does not exhibit uniformly distributed
>current flow throughout the steam cloak that surrounds the cathode, and it
>does not exhibit uniformly distributed current flow, either.

***{The above sentence should have read as follows:

"The Mizuno cell, however, does not exhibit uniformly distributed current
flow throughout the steam cloak that surrounds the cathode, and it does not
exhibit uniformly distributed conductive ions, either."

I hate it when I do that! :-)

--Mitchell Jones}***


[snip]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 14:22:31 1999
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On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, Mitchell Jones wrote:

<snip all arguments about arresting brain development>
To arrest brain development you'd have to experiment arresting
development. I still say that when you place the DNA in an environment in
which it can become a person, it is a little more than 'your property'.
Identical twins are clones; one doesn't own the other.

> ***{Amazing. Who in the hell are you to tell your elders how they ought to
> live, or how smart they are, or when they have to die? From what you have
> said thus far, I assume that you advocate government intervention to
> prevent research into human cloning. If so, then you are an advocate of
> mass murder not merely of the present "older generation," but also of your
> parents and relatives and, eventually, of yourself and your children. And
> yet you dare to lecture the rest of us about "morality"!  --Mitchell
> Jones}***

Who the hell are you to let the cat out of the bag on this one, sanction
such research on the other side of the planet without regard for others? 
Once you release GM organisms (esp foods - the pollen debate) it affects
all. Once you invent something, you can't de-invent it and it may come
back to haunt you. I'm not lecturing you about morality, just saying
proceed with care.  From the country that brought us the bomb, advanced
chemical and biological weapons, advanced weapons, lead in petrol... 

Yes progress. Less gung ho.

> ***{Why don't you lay your cards on the table, Remi? Say openly that you
> think government should force older people to remain in deteriorating
> bodies and suffer the painful infirmities of age, up to and including
> death, so that you can have "fun" watching it happen! --Mitchell
> Jones}***

Emotional, smearing argument. May be it's a style of debate. May be it's a
part of your culture but I basically know how smearing one's opponent
works on both sides Left and Right:

Left: call the person a fascist. Call them closet homosexuals.
Right: call the person a mediocrity or a misfit.
And so on.
Childish.

> ***{If people like you succeed in preventing research that could defeat
> death itself, you become mass murderers on a scale that will put all of the
> previous scum of human history, including Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Idi
> Amin, Genghis Khan, Tamerlane, Ivan the Terrible, and on and on, to shame.
> They will be paragons of virtue, compared to you. --Mitchell Jones}***

Great! Fill the planet with obese, face-lifted (face taught), loud,
culturally impoverished, excessively resource greedy (Hey let's drive the 
10000cc pickup down the drive to the neighbours!), arrogant Americans
well past their sell-by-date (cell-death-date).

Give the youth a try. When I'm outta ideas and any point, I'm outta here!
Death and birth. It's part of life.
Remi.

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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:50:35 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Glow discharge information  KRI, Inc. info
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[snip}

>
>I don't make the rules or invent terminology. I have no idea what the glow
>discharge phenomenon is, and I do not *necessarily* accept your judgement
>in all matters. So if you don't mind, Mitchell, I will stick with the
>standard terminology until the experts come around to accepting your point
>of view. Since I have already explained my reason for calling it this, I do
>not understand why you harp on about the matter.

***{John Schnurer brought the matter back up, not I. I responded because I
consider his take on the situation to be accurate, and consider yours and,
apparently, Mizuno's, to be inaccurate. There is a profound difference
between a glow discharge and an arc discharge, and that difference does not
go away when thousands of tiny arcs substitute for one big arc. The
difference is that in the case of a glow discharge, the entire gaseous
medium is rendered conductive by uniformly distributed charge carriers
(ions), resulting in a diffuse current that is of low intensity through any
specific pathway, though it may be quite large in the aggregate. In an arc
discharge, or, as here, a multi-arc discharge, the entire gaseous medium is
*not* uniformly conductive, and thus the current concentrates itself in
pathways that, for the moment, *are* conductive, producing brief, intense,
localized discharges which we call "arcs." Why is the distinction
important? Because the words we use determine how we think about a
phenomenon, and, in this case, the mechanics of the process are central to
the questions we are trying to answer. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>- Jed

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Take the Political BS over to the other vortex b newsgroup and away from
this forum

rt

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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:20:52 -0600
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Subject: RE: Murray: 9.53 ug He adsorbed per gm activated carbon 6.23.99
   Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:35:17 -0400
   From: Douglas Perkins <dperkins unitedcatalysts.com>
     To: "'Richard T. Murray'" <rmforall earthlink.net>
    CC:  "Russ George (E-mail)" <rgeorge hooked.net>

Interesting.  I do not wish to be embroiled into this discussion,
others can do a better job of that, but perhaps I can clarify one point.
At no point does UCI use He in the manufacture of G75.  The only He to
be found at UCI might be a few lab bottles, although I can not remember
seeing any in my 15 years at UCI.  I suppose He could be used to make
the charcoal, but I doubt it.  It would be a rather expensive gas to
use should the charcoal maker need to use an inert gas.  Would He
adsorb on the catalyst from the atmosphere? Stick to the catalyst
on the reduction step, and evacuation to fill the vessel with D2 at
200 deg C?

If memory serves me correctly, someone, perhaps Russ George, has
already done this with no finding of He.  Anyhow I will forward
this on to Mr. George should he wish to respond.

To try to be helpful in this, I will be pleased to supply a small
sample to anyone who wishes to do the analysis.  In return I would
only ask that the researcher provide me the results of his test.

Doug Perkins

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 16:33:22 1999
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Subject: Re: Sir Bill to you, sir
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At 03:06 PM 6/24/1999 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>	Remind me never to mention Occam's (or Ockham's) Razor in this
>	newsgroup again!
>
>Mention what? Uh . . . that would be the razor with which the barber shaves
>all men in the village who do not shave themselves. Right?

      No, it is the razor used to shave all scientists in this newsgroup
who don't shave themselves. ;-)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
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Subject: Re: Glow discharge information  KRI, Inc. info
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At 04:26 PM 6/24/1999 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
 
>I don't make the rules or invent terminology. I have no idea what the glow
>discharge phenomenon is, and I do not *necessarily* accept your judgement
>in all matters. So if you don't mind, Mitchell, I will stick with the
>standard terminology until the experts come around to accepting your point
>of view. Since I have already explained my reason for calling it this, I do
>not understand why you harp on about the matter.

     In English, glow discharge is a technical term meaning a gas discharge
with no arcing.  The term for what is happening here (glow with no
sustained arcing) is coronal discharge.  I'm not sure whether the terms
were borrowed into Japanese and unintentionally confused, or if this is one
of many cases where a literal translation fails.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
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function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 16:39:35 1999
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Subject: Gene/Jed:  New MIT CF patent!
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Gene / Jed:

Here is yet another MIT patent for CF materials that just issued yesterday!

I hope you guys bring this up in meetings with hot fusion physicists, and it
should be published in the IE magazine on a regular basis as RADICALLY
hypocritical.  MIT trounces on CF, but then they have filed and received
several patents so far, the lastest yesterday.

If they didn't think there was anything to CF, then it would be understandable
that they had filed for ONE patent or maybe two, way back in 89 time frame. 
But the fact that they continue to file for more patents is proof that they
think that there is enough of a chance to spend $10,000 at a pop.  This one was
filed in 1996, plenty of time after 1989 to "know" that CF is BS!   What do the
powers that be at MIT have to say for this response to the technology??????????

United States Patent 5,770,036 Ahern, et. al. Jun. 23, 1998

Inventors: Ahern; Brian S. (Boxboro, MA); Johnson; Keith H. (Cambridge, MA);
Clark, Jr.; Harry R. (Townsend, MA). Assignee: Massachusetts Institute of
Technology (Cambridge, MA). Appl. No.: 642,127 Filed: May 2, 1996


rt


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 16:43:36 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:41:38 EDT
Subject: PLEC:  Technique Changes at NERL?
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Ed Wall,

You wrote quite a while back that your first try with an Ohmori-type plasma 
electrolysis cell didn't show any excess heat.

On June 21, Colin Rickert posted that you and he had succeeded.  Do you know 
what you did differently with the successful run?

Tom Stolper

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Subject: Re: DDT ...... toxic Mercury for Tungsten? (fwd)
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
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At 04:35 PM 6/24/1999 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>For the last several years thalidomide has been approved for use in the
>U.S. for cancer and several other diseases, according to the New York
>Times. Actually, once it is approved for anything, doctors can prescribe it
>for whatever they want, but of course it comes with strong warnings about
>pregnancy.
 
  Hallelujah!  I guess I missed the story, and I guess many doctors are
still unaware of the fact.  (They also seem unaware that opiates used to
suppress pain are non-addicting.)  If thalidomide becomes widely used, the
expectation is that terminal cancer patients will live significantly
longer.  (Many currently die of malnutrition, since opiate suppress the
appetite.  And right now with many promising cancer treatments on the
horizon, buying a few months may be the difference between early death and
a long life.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
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function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 17:00:22 1999
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June 24, 1999

I should have read this email before sending off the first one.
Another point.  UCI does not subject the carbon to freezing
temperatures on purpose. I general we guard against low temperature
exposure.  We do heat treat the carbon at something less than the
combustion point to drive water off during processing.
Doug Perkins

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> Ed Wall,
>
> You wrote quite a while back that your first try with an
> Ohmori-type plasma
> electrolysis cell didn't show any excess heat.
>
> On June 21, Colin Rickert posted that you and he had succeeded.
> Do you know
> what you did differently with the successful run?
>
> Tom Stolper
>
>

Tom,

Colin Rickert posted two items on 6/21.  One was about a microwave powered
motor and the other was a re-post of something Gene posted about a year ago
when the Mizuno-Ohmori cell was new to us.  The header was stipped from the
second one.  Gene was the first person singular in that message, not Colin
(see below).  The positive result we thought we had was actually a mistake,
due to a broken thermometer that touched the cathode, which drove the
alcohol to a high point and froze it there.  I did not see the damage until
after I had told Gene about the large delta-T.  I told him about later, but
failed to adequately communicate that it was the cause of the seeming strong
overunity run.  I then left NH to return to my job in TX and Gene wrote the
post.  You should note that Gene was rather tentative about the results in
the post, given the rather ad-hoc nature of the setup.

Ed Wall


Colin Rickert's post:

#########################################################################
A word of WARNING right up front: This is potentially VERY DANGEROUS work
and must not be done without maximum, safety precautions and supervision
by those thoroughly versed in laboratory safety!  It involves
high-temperatures, high-voltages, explosive mi xtures of oxygen and
hydrogen, caustic solutions, and steam generation that if improperly
contained could cause a deadly explosion. These are just the beginning
hazards. This is unknown territory.  Drs. Ohmori and Mizuno measured the
transmutation of elem ents in this experiment. Thus, until further notice
^Ë and despite your possible skepticism about their claim of transmutation
^Ë this work must be considered, by definition, nuclear experimentation.
With that said, we encourage every thoughtful group who can do this
experiment safely to attempt it. Infinite Energy and Cold Fusion
Technology, Inc. take no responsibility for the known or unknown radiation
or other hazards that are associated this experiment.

*********************************

Dear Colleagues:

After much work we now have what appears to be a marvelous do-it-yourself
"cold fusion" experiment. Any reasonably equipped chem/physics lab can see
the effect within days to a week -- if they get their act together. The
experiment has the following quali ties:

1. It is visually and audibly spectacular -- brilliant glowing, pink,
purple, lavender with white flashes on an underwater tungsten (W)
electrode ( e.g. 2 mm x 5 mm W foil or 1 cm x 1.6 mm diameter tungsten
welding rod). A plasma-like underwater discharge on the electrode that
often manages to disintegrate or melt tungsten underwater with only about
50 to 80 watts of power over a short period. (Tungsten's melting point is
3680 K or thereabouts.) The sound of the underwater "explosions" on the
cathode -- brilliant white flashes on the purple background plasma -- is
very impressive.

2. It is *totally reproducible* -- at will -- with no loading time as in
the Pd/heavy water experiments

3. Calorimetry is simple to do because there is so much steam energy
evolved from the reaction that by simply tallying the amount of water
vaporized as steam, one gets over-unity every time (so far). Three groups
have already gotten *preliminary* over-unity results: 1. Ohmori and Mizuno
in Japan, who introduced the phenomenon at ICCF-7 (O/U estimated at
2.6/1); 2. Gene Mallove and FAA engineer Ed Wall here in Bow, NH during
the past ten days -- work continuing -- (CONSERVATIVELY 1.4/1); 3.
Engineer Mark Hugo of Northern States Power in Minnesota (but his
affiliation has nothing to do with his home experiment) -- (CONSERVATIVELY
1.5/1), but owrk still continuing to check for errors. Chemist John
Thompson in the Bahamas, who attended ICCF-7, was the first person outside
of Japan to reproduce the effect and will do calorimetry on it soon. This
will be in IE #20 out on July 22.

4. No one has patents or may be able to get them since the effect was
noticed in other forms (1916!) and reported extensively in the Journal of
the Electrochemical Society, April, 1950, p.133 in an article titled ("The
Anode Effect in Aqueous Electrolysis," by Herbert Kellogg of the School of
Mines, Columbia University. New York -- Hal Fox found this marvelous
article, since it relates to some of the work his Trenergy Company is
doing weith charge clustgers and radioactivity reduction. This may,
indeed, be related to the underwater electrolysis ability to remediate
nuclear waste. But -- OF COURSE! -- NO *calorimetry* was done in 1950. No
one had any idea that such simple systems could be O/U. The systems were
studied for other reasons.  Further: the present tungsten effect is seen
mainly on the cathode, but it can make the Pt anode incandescent too at
lower water temperature (say 50 C) -- we normally work over 80 C. It is
very mysterious -- was so to Kellogg in 1950 and remains so.

5. Ohmori and Mizuno found major evidence for transmutation of elements
and volcanic ejection of metals from the tungsten surface -- these SEM
photos were reproduced in their article. They find Hg, Os, Kr, Zn, Cu, Ni,
Fe, Cr, Si, and Mg -- with anomalous isotopic content. Just as I said, in
IE #15/16, this subject is more properly called ³Electro-Alchemy"

6. WARNING: Ohomori and Mizuno experienced significant apparent
electromagnetic effects on their instruments. They were unsure whether
some of the effect on their neutron counter were evidence of neutrons -- I
doubt the latter, as did Srinivasan of BARC at ICCF7. I have kept a Geiger
counter on during our experiments -- absolutely no sign of major ionizing
radiation, but of course it could be localized within the cell.

Ohmori and Mizuno's paper at ICCF7: " Strong Excess Energy Evolution, New
Element Production, and Electromagnetic Wave And/Or Neutron Emission in
the Light Water Electrolysis with a Tungsten Cathode."  T. Ohmori and T.
Mizuno, Catalysis Research Center, H okkaido University

Here is my recommended recipe for an experiment to demonstrate the effect:

1. Take a 250 ml glass beaker, fill to about 200 ml level with 0.5 molar
(0.5 M) K2CO3 -- potassium carbonate solution

2. Get 0.5 mm diameter Pt wire for both anode and cathode leads -- about
15 cm for each lead is adequate length. Shield them with teflon tubing
down to the connection point with the Pt or W.

3. Use a small piece of Pt foil -- about 2 mm x 5mm on the anode (positive
lead) crimped mechanically to the Pt wire -- no welding is needed.

4. Use a 2 mm x 5 mm size W foil on the cathode - negative side. It is
tricky to attach the W foil (we used 0.1 mm thickness, which can be
pierced with difficulty and the Pt lead wired through). Or, if W welding
rod 1/16-inch diameter is available, wrap t he Pt wire around the W piece
about 0.5 to 1 cm long. Warning: The reaction is so violent that it is
hard to get the cathode piece in rod form not to fall out of its Pt wire
cage! Runs up to 10 minutes or so are usually OK. Mark Hugo has run for up
to 75 minutes , condunsing steam from the reaction -- but he has put other
ingredients into the brew such as Li, and he has used a thicker cathode of
1/8-inch W rod.

5. Get a DC power supply up to 5 amps capacity and up to 200 volts. (I am
eager to try beyond 180 volts, but we may need a concrete bunker before we
try that! Eager also to try heavy water!)  You can use a variac AC source
to make DC power-- use a bridge rectifier and capacitor to make DC from
the AC output. Install voltage and current metering devices -- digital
display preferred, data acquisition system if you want to get fancy on the
calorimetry later. I'm sure Scott Little and Mitch Swartz cojuld do this
soon if they put their equipment into this specialized service. This is an
excellent experiment for Barry Merriman too!

6. Heat up the beaker solution to 80 C either by electrolysis at low DC
input power -- e.g. 20 V, 1.8 to 2 amps -- or with an external hot plate.
(Turn off the hot plate and **remove it** if calorimetry is being used.)
At about 80 deg --sometimes at a lower temperature -- crank up the volts
to 120 to 180. The effect changes appearance as voltage increases. Current
will drop substantially to 0.2 to 0.4 amps as the sheath of steam
surrounds the glowiing plasma-sheathed cathode. Keep an alcohol
thermometer suspended in the solution to measure the temperature. I would
*initially* avoid thermocouples because of the threat of violent
electromagnetic interference in this unknown phenomena.

In calorimetric assessment: Heating credit should be taken for the full
mass of water in the cell from the initial temperature of say 80 C to the
boiling point. However, you may find it difficult to push the average
solution temperature up to 100C (we were only in the low to mid 90s),
because the steam ejected cools the solution so rapidly. The boiling point
is elevated -- McKubre estimated to me in aprivate communciation by only
0.25 deg C for such a solution). This is wonderful, because we WANT steam.
It will be no problem at all to power steam engines with this, if pending
thorough verification of excess energy (This *is* work in progress that
must be confirmed!) we figure out how to get the power ratio high enough,
if it is not there already. The main source of the excess is the amount
boiled off: water vaporized requires about 2260 J/gm.

Why was this missed by other cold fusion people? Simple: everyone was
looking for a sedate reaction that P&F had started with when the real pay
off was in these higher voltage systems that trigger with metals like
tungsten. W is recommended due to its temperature resistance, but John
Thompson has found that other metals such as Al, Cu, Ni, and Zr also work
-- as far as the *visible* effect. The colors of the emissions are
different -- different hot plasma near the cathode surface.

Other parameters that need to be explored:

* Higher voltage

* Can energy be extracted from the recycled water after steam condensation
  or if Mills-type hydrinos are formed, do they become "inert"?

* Other electrolytes -- KCl also works, according to Thompson, try higher
  molarity values

* Other metals

* Pressurized systems -- BE CAREFUL!!!

* Recombine oxygen and hydrogen -- but a very small part of the effect,
  undoubtedly -- to get extra energy in the output

* Try heavy water in various mixtures with light water

* Detect electromagnetic pulse from the device -- if it is there as they
  found in Japan

* Examine the element production and non-natural isotope ratios formed

* SEM imaging for morphology of craters

* Look for radiation -- use film fogging techniques, CR-39 plastic
  detectors, etc.

This will keep a lot of people busy for a long time. As soon as we pin
down the thermal characteristics a bit more, we and others well be
hell-bent to scale up to larger power-producing units -- with SAFETY FIRST
as our motto.

**********


This is a typical, very brief O/U investigation run that Ed Wall and I
performed here recently in an uninsulated glass beaker on a metal surface
-- VERY rough calculation, conservative, we think. Among other factors
reducing effect apart from ZERO insulation is the recondensation and
re-boiling of material -- we had a plastic cover on the beaker with holes
drilled in it. A distillation recondensation device would be preferred to
observe water evolved as steam.

Input: 0.7 to 0.8 amps, avg 0.75 A input at 168 volts = 26,590 J

Duration: 3 minutes, 31 seconds

Solution reduced from 183 ml to 173 ml due to boil-off

Output = 10 x 2260 J/gm H2O + 183 x (about 15 C rise during heating to
full boiling at about 92 C) x 4.18 J/gm C = 34,060

output/input = 1.28

Credit for uninsulated vessel and re-bailing of condnsed liquid could
easily push this to 1.40 and beyond. Much more work needs to be done.

I hope that other Vortexians will try this -- CAREFULLY, please!

************
###########################################################################

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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:40:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Just TRY IT, Scott!
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The way Russ George and SRI reduced D2 content to much less than 1 ppm was
a two-step process. As I recall, the small amount of gas they bled in for
analysis was first exposed to a LN2-cooled graphite-coated surface---a
commonly used cryosorbtion pumping technique. Most of the remaining D2 was
then removed by a getter. 

You can also get D2 pressure down below 10e-6 mbar (10e-9 bar) by direct
condensation on a surface cooled by liquid He. However, liquid He and the
associated technologh are a bit pricy---probably why Russ and SRI didn't
use it.

While you are trying to pump D2 out of your system, you should bake all the
components to speed up the outgassing. A lot of the D2 will be tied up as
water, too, and baking definitely helps to get rid of that.
===
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 19:42:44 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Gene/Jed:  New MIT CF patent!
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At 4:38 PM 6/24/99, Ross Tessien wrote:
>Gene / Jed:
>
>Here is yet another MIT patent for CF materials that just issued yesterday!
[snip]
>
>United States Patent 5,770,036 Ahern, et. al. Jun. 23, 1998
>
>Inventors: Ahern; Brian S. (Boxboro, MA); Johnson; Keith H. (Cambridge, MA);
>Clark, Jr.; Harry R. (Townsend, MA). Assignee: Massachusetts Institute of
>Technology (Cambridge, MA). Appl. No.: 642,127 Filed: May 2, 1996


Keith H. Johnson - a familiar name from s.p.f.  Also of interest is that
the work was sponsored by the Air Force.

Thanks for the most interesting reference Ross.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 22:21:40 1999
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Okay,
I didn't realise vortexb was still around. Is it the same process
vortexb-l-request, subscribe?
Remi.
On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, Ross Tessien wrote:

> 
> Take the Political BS over to the other vortex b newsgroup and away from
> this forum
> 
> rt
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 22:30:28 1999
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On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, Ross Tessien wrote:
> Take the Political BS over to the other vortex b newsgroup and away from
> this forum
> 
> rt
> 
Where do we take the Science BS? There's a lot of old, old non-starters
here that anybody with any practical training would tell you is bad
science and certainly large scale engineeringly unfeasible.

It seems to me that all bastions are a process of youth competing with
older folk and this is the problem. Not only do these oldsters want to
stick around forever, they want to make people believe things which are
clearly wrong lest their reputation is challenged and they look small.

Read 'Seven Ages of Man' by Bill.
Death and rebirth is how you perpetuate the species. God was wise.

Do you Yanks expect me to think Cher and Tina Turner are dolls! You seem
to believe that pure consumerism can somehow fill the void within.
Remi.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 22:44:12 1999
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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:35:42 -1000
Subject: Re: Electromagnetic effect research yields practical application. 
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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John wrote:

<snip>

>  The Application:
> 
> 
>  Electromagnetic Property
>
>  The property will simply be called a Connecting Link, or CL.
>  This effect can be used to send data over short distances.  At
> present many computer products use IR, or Infra Red to convey data.  Other
> methods in use are radio methods, other optical links and, of course,
> cables.
>  One of the limitation of the wireless methods is reduced speed.
> You can get high speed links... but costs go up with speed.
>  The CL method is very short range, less than 3 feet, sort of like
> the IR methods.... but it is at least as fast as present day Serial and
> Parallel cables, in most cases.  It is more expensive than a cable ... but
> less expensive than an equivalent speed IR or radio link.  I like to think
> of it as a connector with no pins.
>
>      John Schnurer
>
>
>  Physics Engineering
>  PO Box CN 446
>  Yellow Springs, Ohio
>  45387
>
>  herman college.antioch.edu
>
>
>  PS:  Thanks to all for your time and care in this matter.

Ever hear about "Bluetooth"?


- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 23:01:37 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: regulation of GM, vortexb
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At 6:25 AM 6/25/99, Cornwall RO wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, Ross Tessien wrote:
>> Take the Political BS over to the other vortex b newsgroup and away from
>> this forum
>>
>> rt
>>
>Where do we take the Science BS?
[snip]

If I remember the history correctly, vortexb was created especially for
non-experiment related "Science BS" specifically including flying saucers,
ESP, etc.  Vortex-l is primarily new energy related.

Historically my feeling is this group has had a wonderful tolerance for
"Science BS" though, but a high dregree of disdane for political
discussion, personal attack, hubris, and language that may offend the minor
age subscribers.

Thanks to Ross Tessien for raising the red flag and to Remi Cornwall for
being so nice about it.

To subscribe to vortexb simply send an empty message to
<vortexb-L-request eskimo.com> with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 23:01:41 1999
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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 22:00:37 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: C13 + H1 -> N13 + gamma  (speculation)
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The new hydrogen absorbing forms of carbon may provide a special
opportunity to look for CF in the form:

   C13 + H1 -> N13 + gamma

followed by beta decay:

   N13 -> C13 + beta + neutrino

which are the first two steps of the carbon cycle.

If LENR reactions can and do occur in a metal lattice, with little or no
ionizing radiation, due to special solid state mechanics, perhaps nuclear
reactions in a carbon lattice are feasible utilizing the same mechanisms.
There is the presence of carbon or carbonate radicals in all open CF cells,
which tend to migrate toward or coat the anode.  Perhaps there are hydrogen
trapping carbon based structures built in the vicinity of or on the surface
of the anodes of electrolytic cells containing carbonates.  In the case of
the Ohmuri cell, that anode might be the one provided by the
liquid/discharge interface that opposes the cathode from the opposite side
of the gas/plasma sheath.

This kind of possibility is another reason to build long cells with
separate calorimetry for the anode, electrolyte and cathode sections.  Some
of the heat may be coming from the anode region.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 24 23:11:46 1999
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At 6:25 AM 6/25/99, Cornwall RO wrote:

To subscribe to vortexb simply send an empty message to
<vortexb-L-request eskimo.com> with the word "subscribe" in the subject.

Sorry, I earlier said "unsubscribe".

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 03:17:01 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: RE: Case & Arata
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 06:19:57 -0400
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>
>Knuke,
>
>I have to admit to being out of my depth on this stuff.  Wouldn't Ed Storms
>or particularly Scott Little have found the U decay with his very sensitive
>method?

I'm way over my head as well, but I have done some work with it so I know a
little about the measurement aspects.  No, Scott and Ed's measurements,
unless taken over a long period of time would probably not lead them to
think that there was anything significant in the samples if the amounts of U
were truly small, say 2ppb.  Even if the measurements were taken over time
there is a good chance that they might not see it for reasons I will explain
below.  It might not even be a radioactive product that is causing this
reaction, but this much I can tell you.  People, animals, insects, rocks,
plants, - everything, basically, in their natural states are comprised of a
large number of elements.  That is such a simple fact of life that I am a
bit surprised that anyone would need to be told this, but here goes.

Plants take minerals out of the soil that they are in, and these trace
amounts of whatever they are in go up the pipes, and actually become part of
the matrix or geometry of the overall organism.  Simply roasting a coconut
shell and calling it carbon is to me an oversimplification that only a PhD
in Physics would do.:-)  Coffee grown in South America will contain Copper.
Coffee grown in the Arabic countries will contain silica, and so on.  This
is just the way.

Another fact of life that is perhaps less fortunate is that in the last 50
years, the world has produced, and in some cases unsuccessfully tried to
store large amounts of radioactive materials.  Disposal techniques have
ranged from storage in leaded glass containers, to shooting it at our
enemies, to dumping it straight into the ocean.  Fall out from above ground
testing, and contamination of groundwater from underground testing of
nuclear weapons has also been a contributing factor in the widespread
distribution of these materials.  There is no denying it, or even trying to
stop it as far as I can tell.  The bottom line is that trace quantities of
nuclear materials are going to be some of the trace elements that end up in
plants, animals, and eventually humans.

Nuclear materials are not the only things that have been distributed or
relocated and concentrated into things.  Gallium and Arsenic are becoming
very commonly found in steels that have been recycled.  The automobile
industry puts more computer chips in cars, and they don't get removed in the
salvaging process.  These are just examples of material facts that have to
be considered when investigating any phenomenon these days.  The old
assumptions just don't apply anymore.  One has to look at the composition of
each individual component for these trace additives.  They are there.

When I say trace quantities, I mean that they are probably in the range of 1
- 200ppb, not enough to worry about in most cases in terms of safety, but in
terms of catalysis or ionic tunneling, we know from the semiconductor
industry, for example, that small amounts make a difference.  It is up to
the investigator to find those trace elements, find their quantities and
experiment to see which ones yield the desired result.

Finding trace amounts of radioactive materials in a carbon lattice without
first destroying the lattice is especially difficult.  Any conducting
material surrounding the trace nuclear material will absorb and attenuate
the signal given off during the decay, and only the amounts nearest the
surface will be readable.  Putting a Pd coating on the carbon material will
only make that more difficult, as even the carbon surfaces will be covered
by a conductor.  A quick waving of a scintilator over something like that,
and declaring that it does not contain radioactive material is not
considered a test.   

That is why I suggested actively doping the catalyst.  At least you know a
bit about what is going in there, in spite of the fact that you don't know
what is already in there.  It is quicker and less expensive than looking for
materials, or at least it might be.

>
>I don't follow.  What would radon do?

Almost any decay process will produce some amounts of helium nuclei.  How
much will depend on the radioactive material.  The RF pulse that occurs at
the time of decay is absorbed by the lattice, and will behave differently
depending on the overall structure and geometry of the lattice.  Nanotubes
have been shown to have unusual or novel conduction abilities, including
some proof of superconducting abilities at high temperatures.  They are like
small, hollow attennae, and possibly have strong, focused, monopole field
gradients in the center.  The presence of D2 in the center of the tubes in
close proximity to the nuclear decay event, may present the conditions in
which the coulomb barrier may be overcome, and fusion can be accomplished in
a relatively safe environment.

>Well, as far as the Case experiment at NERL, we can only look for excess
>heat at this stage (we hope to get retrospective helium analysis done if we
>get clear excess heat) and I hope to use the new flow calorimeter do to this
>soon.  We have seen clear excess temperature only once, and that was when
>Les Case was here doing the experiment with Gene Mallove.  Unfortunately, I
>was not here yet, so I am working from that lab notebook and hints from
>McKubre, etc.

You've just begun, really :)

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 06:19:36 -0400
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>> I don't like to be pedantic . . . (okay, I admit, I do like to be
>> pedantic), but that should be Sir William.

>Well, he might have belonged to the Knights of Columbus.  :-)

Or the Arabian Knights...

Or those Knights in White Satin!

I think they had a handshake

I noticed that I had a handshake when I first came down here.  It got so bad
that I quit using my razor altogether.  Then I switched bug sprays and it
went away.  In fact, now I feel like a NEW MAN!  I'm going to have to read
those labels a little closer...;)

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 05:13:15 1999
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Subject: Electrode temps - was  [C13 + H1 -> N13 + gamma]
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   At 10:00 PM 6/24/99 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:


>This kind of possibility is another reason to build long cells with

>separate calorimetry for the anode, electrolyte and cathode sections. 
Some

>of the heat may be coming from the anode region.



   But is it excess? and where in the optimal operating point

phase space does it occur?     ;-)


   Mitchell Swartz


  ==============================================


Swartz. M., 1997, "Biphasic Behavior in Thermal Electrolytic 

Generators Using Nickel Cathodes". lECEC 1997 Proceedings, 

paper #97009  


 short excerpt: (Pi notch = optimal operating point)


<bold>LOCATION OF EXCESS HEAT WITHIN THE Pi-NOTCH </bold> 

  "The origin of the site of heat may differ at different drive 

levels along the biphasic response curve.  We have examined 

electrode temperatures in situ using a system which is relatively 

unaffected by the local electrical conditions.  ...

   For  nickel-platinum-light water systems, the site of peak heat 

appears to change as the system is driven with increasing electrical 

drive.  Although it is generally assumed that the excess heat 

liberation occurs at the cathode, in this system the site of peak 

temperature release was observed to be at the cathode only in when 

the system was driven in the center of the pi-notch. ...

    At the lowest electrical drive levels, there appeared to be 

roughly equal amounts of heat generation (under-unity) at both 

the anode and cathode.  .....  Near the 

peak of the pi-notch, the cathode (nickel) appears to be the 

site of maximum heat generation and in over-unity amounts within 

the electrochemical cell. 

 ....  at the highest electrical drive levels, outside of the 

Pi-notch where the excess heat falls-off,  that there then 

appeared to be more heat output generation (decreasing toward 

under-unity amounts) coming from the anode ... consistent with 

... recombination occurring at that location."





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 05:38:28 1999
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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Horace's  P + C Speculation (The Carbon-Nitrogen Cycle)
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Horace wrote:

>
>  P + C12 ---->  N13 + Gamma
>
This is part of  the proposed Carbon-Nitrogen Cycle, Horace. Hans Betha, I
think:

1, Proton + C12 --->  N13 + gamma +   ? mev

2, N13 (Beta+  decay)---->   C13 + 1 Mev

3, Proton +  C13 ---->  N14 +  8 Mev

4, Proton + N14 ---->   O15  +   gamma + 7 mev

5, O15 (Beta+  decay) ----->   N15 + 1.7 mev

6, Proton + N15 ----->   He4 + C12 + 5 mev

This leaves C12 to start the next cycle.

If you substitute a "QuasiNeutron" or "Hydrino" for the Proton and get Light
Leptons and heat
in place of the Gammas .....  :-)

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 07:22:22 1999
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Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 06:25:03 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Horace's  P + C Speculation (The Carbon-Nitrogen Cycle)
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At 10:00 PM 6/24/99, Horace Heffner wrote:
>The new hydrogen absorbing forms of carbon may provide a special
>opportunity to look for CF in the form:
>
>   C13 + H1 -> N13 + gamma
>
>followed by beta decay:
>
>   N13 -> C13 + beta + neutrino
>
>which are the first two steps of the carbon cycle.
[snip]


At 6:30 AM 6/25/99, Frederick  Sparber wrote:
>Horace wrote:
>
>>
>>  P + C12 ---->  N13 + Gamma
>>
>This is part of  the proposed Carbon-Nitrogen Cycle, Horace. Hans Betha, I
>think:
[snip]

Yes, but as far as I know, it is also just called the carbon cycle.  Is
there a distinction?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 07:22:39 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Electrode temps - was  [C13 + H1 -> N13 + gamma]
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At 8:07 AM 6/25/99, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
[snip]
>    At the lowest electrical drive levels, there appeared to be
>roughly equal amounts of heat generation (under-unity) at both
>the anode and cathode.  .....  Near the
>peak of the pi-notch, the cathode (nickel) appears to be the
>site of maximum heat generation and in over-unity amounts within
>the electrochemical cell.
> ....  at the highest electrical drive levels, outside of the
>Pi-notch where the excess heat falls-off,  that there then
>appeared to be more heat output generation (decreasing toward
>under-unity amounts) coming from the anode ... consistent with
>... recombination occurring at that location."


Nice quote Mitchell.  Thanks!

So, this brings up the question of what is happening in the Ohmori cell,
which, in effect, is being driven at a massive overvoltage.  Perhaps the
recombination in the anode area, or the andode side of the plasma sheath,
is extremely energetic, driven by the massive overpotential.

Looking at components of the plasma sheath calorimetrically is difficult,
to say the least.  The same is true in an ordinary electrolytic cell.  You
have done some very intriguing research on this, but one important facit of
your research, as you have noted, is that it was thermometric in nature,
and not calorimetric.  It is not easy to make the leap, but it may be
critical.

Perhaps one way to examine the plasma sheath is to use much higher voltage
in a vertical cell which is filled with steam by boiling the electrolyte
using auxiliary heating, and which has a tungsten electrode at some
distance from the electrolyte surface.  To some extent this approach could
also act as a control for examining the sparking/arcing mechanisms.

Spark bubble implosions are prime candidates for ou behaviour, possibly
including zpe extraction, so determining if the plasma liquid interface is
producing energy is important.  All this thinking is of course predicated
on the Ohmori cell being proven over unity.


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <v01530501b3993b705924 [12.21.211.136]>
Subject: Re: Horace's  P + C Speculation (The Carbon-Nitrogen Cycle)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 08:24:19 -0600
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----- Original Message -----
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 1999 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: Horace's P + C Speculation (The Carbon-Nitrogen Cycle)

Six of One, Half Dozen of the other, Horace.    :-)

Fred

Horace wrote:


> At 10:00 PM 6/24/99, Horace Heffner wrote:
> >The new hydrogen absorbing forms of carbon may provide a special
> >opportunity to look for CF in the form:
> >
> >   C13 + H1 -> N13 + gamma
> >
> >followed by beta decay:
> >
> >   N13 -> C13 + beta + neutrino
> >
> >which are the first two steps of the carbon cycle.
> [snip]
>
>
> At 6:30 AM 6/25/99, Frederick  Sparber wrote:
> >Horace wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>  P + C12 ---->  N13 + Gamma
> >>
> >This is part of  the proposed Carbon-Nitrogen Cycle, Horace. Hans Betha,
I
> >think:
> [snip]
>
> Yes, but as far as I know, it is also just called the carbon cycle.  Is
> there a distinction?
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 08:10:17 1999
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: C13 + H1 -> N13 + gamma  (speculation)
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At 10:00 PM 6/24/1999 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>The new hydrogen absorbing forms of carbon may provide a special
>opportunity to look for CF in the form:
>
>   C13 + H1 -> N13 + gamma
>
>followed by beta decay:
>
>   N13 -> C13 + beta + neutrino
>
>which are the first two steps of the carbon cycle...

   That first line is probably a typo for C12 + H1 -> N13 + gamma.  And yes
it is called the carbon cycle or the carbon-nitrogen cycle.  It is the
primary source for the nitrogen we breathe.  Note that carbon (or nitrogen
depending on where you start) can be used up primarily by being converted
to O16, which leads eventually to all the heavier elements (in astronomical
terms metals) up to iron.  So for the reaction to continue the carbon needs
to be replenished, either through 3 He4 --> C12, or chains starting with 2
He4 --> Li7 + p, or 2 He4 --> Li6 + d.  So even though the carbon cycle
works at lower temperatures than PeP, some Helium burning is needed to
sustain it.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 08:10:44 1999
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Subject: RCCNT conf. announcement
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RUSSIAN ACADEMY OF SCIENCE
RUSSIAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
NUCLEAR SOCIETY OF RUSSIA
MENDELEEV RUSSIAN CHEMICAL SOCIETY
LOMONOSOV MOSCOW STATE UNIVERSITY
RUSSIAN PEOPLE'S FRIENDSHIP UNIVERSITY
MOSCOW STATE TECHNICAL UNIVERSITY (MADI)

Phone:	(095) 464-78-81, (095) 196-71-17	P.O.Box 169, "Erzion" Center,
Fax:	(095) 196-61-08	105077 Moscow, Russia
E-mail:	Gnedenko kiae.ru
____________________________________________________________________________
_______

Third announcement
	Dear colleague:
The Organizing Committee of the Seventh Russian Conference on Cold Nuclear
Transmutation (RCCNT-7) hereinafter expresses its deep apology and notifies
you about rescheduling the Conference. It will be held on September 26
through October 3, 1999.
The reason for the change is the situation with the Internation Cold Fusion
Conference in Italy that has also been rescheduled for 2000.

	We are concerned with organizing of the Seventh Russian Conference on Cold
Nuclear Transmutation (RCCNT-7), which is going to take place in the hotel
Olimpiyskiy at the town of Dagomys near city of Sochi (one of the best
Russian resort on the coast of the Black Sea) during  September 26 through
October 3, 1999.
	The programme of the Conference includes the following subjects:
	1. Experimental researches of Cold Fusion and Nuclear Transmutation;
	2. Cold Fusion and Nuclear Transmutation theoretical models;
	3. Cold Fusion applied technologies and devices.
         I am pleased to invite you to participate in this conference and
to deliver a report on any subject preferred by you.  Would you kindly send
me the abstract of your report if you are going to  present it.. The
languages of the Conference will be Russian and English. If you want to
take part in our Conference you should inform me by E-mail or by fax before
July 15 for I am able to organize obtaining your  visa and hotel
reservation. Please inform us about your e-mail address.
	The registration fee of $900 for participants covers:
- conference proceedings and program;
- a transportation from Sochi airport to hotel and back;
- a hotel stay in Sochi;
- the daily meal (breakfast, dinner and supper) during on September 26
through;
- the organizing fee.
If you pay before July 15 your fee may be reduced down to $800. After
having received your confirmation I will immediately inform you about our
bank requisites and rout numbers to transfer your registration fee.  We
will be ready to meet you at the Sochi airport on September 26 if you  give
us the information about your flight number. The projected date of reversed
flight from the Sochi airport is October 3.
We are looking forward to your attendence  the Conference.

	Sincerely,
                            Yury N. Bazhutov, Co-chairman of the RCCNT-7
Organizing Committee


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 08:25:37 1999
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Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:27:01 -0400
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Virus Alert
Cc: "Gnedenko" <gnedenko kiae.ru>
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    I just received an email message with subject Iccnt which has an
attachment infected with a MS Word virus.  If you recieved it, don't open
it.  If your anti-virus software doesn't warn you on receipt, get it
updated.  I cced the apparent sender, but in messages like this that is
often not the real source.  (Also I don't know how I got this message, I
don't recognize any mailing list that I am on...)

>From: "Gnedenko" <gnedenko kiae.ru>
>To: <rollo artvark.com>, <scienceletters@aaas.org>, <brnbx@nets.com>,
>        <sarfatti well.com>, <smurray@hsph.harvard.edu>, <cmurray@uh.edu>,
>        <lucille telis.org>, <zumm@flash.net>, <ross@pacificnet.net>,
>        <revtec mail.ptd.net>, <jlogajan@skypoint.com>, <danyork@iadfw.net>,
>        <mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov>, <rgeorge@hooked.net>, <dag@lsd.tandem.com>
>Cc: <barry math.ucla.edu>, <edonrott@nkn.net>, <72240.1256@compuserve.com>,
>        <letters scicop.org>, <editors@sciam.com>, <rmcarrell@aol.com>,
>        <mrandall earthlink.com>, <uban@world.std.com>,
>        <mhugo eprinet.epri.com>, <100433.1541@compuserve.com>,
>        <steckly.gary ic.gc.ca>, <fstenger@interlaced.net>
>Subject: Iccnt
>Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 14:38:53 +0400
>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3


                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 09:09:12 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: C13 + H1 -> N13 + gamma  (speculation)
Resent-Message-ID: <"SjIjs1.0.QL2.pZwSt" mx1>
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At 11:12 AM 6/25/99, Robert I. Eachus wrote:
>At 10:00 PM 6/24/1999 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:
>>The new hydrogen absorbing forms of carbon may provide a special
>>opportunity to look for CF in the form:
>>
>>   C13 + H1 -> N13 + gamma
[snip]
>
>   That first line is probably a typo for C12 + H1 -> N13 + gamma.
[snip]

Yes, that's my typo.  Thanks for the correction.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 09:10:51 1999
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Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:11:34 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: PLEC: Damn!
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The spot welds that hold the W sheet to the W rod in Mizuno's cathodes are
EXTREMELY fragile.

As indicated in this photo,

http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/cathodes.jpg

one of these spot weld broke in shipping to us.  When I reported that to
Mizuno, he informed me that all of the first batch of cathodes he sent to
KRI broke in shipment.

Anyway, in a careful attempt to cut off the excess W wire length from the
cathodes I was planning to use in my next runs, both of my remaining good
Mizuno cathodes fell apart!

My own spot welder has insufficient oomph to make this weld.  The joint
between the two W pieces flares into brilliant white incandescence but no
melting occurs.  I have no choice but to reweld Mizuno's cathodes using my
TIG fusion technique.

I will inform Mizuno tonight.  Hopefully he will be sending me some more
cathodes soon.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 09:25:34 1999
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Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 08:25:54 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Virus Alert
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At 11:27 AM 6/25/99, Robert I. Eachus wrote:
>    I just received an email message with subject Iccnt which has an
>attachment infected with a MS Word virus.

The contents were just posted on vortex by Jed (see below).  The posting
was in text, so no virus transmitted, but everybody addressed on the
original announcement might be at risk.  Vortex seems a bit quiet all of a
sudden.  I hope people haven't been zapped.  Looks like Gnedenko has been
zapped.

At 11:08 AM 6/25/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>RUSSIAN ACADEMY OF SCIENCE
>RUSSIAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
>NUCLEAR SOCIETY OF RUSSIA
>MENDELEEV RUSSIAN CHEMICAL SOCIETY
>LOMONOSOV MOSCOW STATE UNIVERSITY
>RUSSIAN PEOPLE'S FRIENDSHIP UNIVERSITY
>MOSCOW STATE TECHNICAL UNIVERSITY (MADI)
>
>Phone:  (095) 464-78-81, (095) 196-71-17        P.O.Box 169, "Erzion" Center,
>Fax:    (095) 196-61-08 105077 Moscow, Russia
>E-mail: Gnedenko kiae.ru
>____________________________________________________________________________
>_______
>
>Third announcement
>        Dear colleague:
>The Organizing Committee of the Seventh Russian Conference on Cold Nuclear
>Transmutation (RCCNT-7) hereinafter expresses its deep apology and notifies
>you about rescheduling the Conference. It will be held on September 26
>through October 3, 1999.
[snip]

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 10:00:53 1999
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Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:01:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Russian conference....  Re: Virus Alert Which is Which ???
In-Reply-To: <v01530505b3995d2cedf3 [12.21.208.28]>
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	Dear Folks....

	Are you confused?

	I am....  See below.........

	Q:  Virus alert ???
	Q:  Russian Conference ???

	Q:  Which is what ???



On Fri, 25 Jun 1999, Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 11:27 AM 6/25/99, Robert I. Eachus wrote:
> >    I just received an email message with subject Iccnt which has an
> >attachment infected with a MS Word virus.
> 
> The contents were just posted on vortex by Jed (see below).  The posting
> was in text, so no virus transmitted, but everybody addressed on the
> original announcement might be at risk.  Vortex seems a bit quiet all of a
> sudden.  I hope people haven't been zapped.  Looks like Gnedenko has been
> zapped.
> 
> At 11:08 AM 6/25/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> >RUSSIAN ACADEMY OF SCIENCE
> >RUSSIAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
> >NUCLEAR SOCIETY OF RUSSIA
> >MENDELEEV RUSSIAN CHEMICAL SOCIETY
> >LOMONOSOV MOSCOW STATE UNIVERSITY
> >RUSSIAN PEOPLE'S FRIENDSHIP UNIVERSITY
> >MOSCOW STATE TECHNICAL UNIVERSITY (MADI)
> >
> >Phone:  (095) 464-78-81, (095) 196-71-17        P.O.Box 169, "Erzion" Center,
> >Fax:    (095) 196-61-08 105077 Moscow, Russia
> >E-mail: Gnedenko kiae.ru
> >____________________________________________________________________________
> >_______
> >
> >Third announcement
> >        Dear colleague:
> >The Organizing Committee of the Seventh Russian Conference on Cold Nuclear
> >Transmutation (RCCNT-7) hereinafter expresses its deep apology and notifies
> >you about rescheduling the Conference. It will be held on September 26
> >through October 3, 1999.
> [snip]
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 10:04:19 1999
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Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:02:20 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
Organization: Energy K System
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Michael T Huffman wrote:

> >
> >Knuke,
> >
> >I have to admit to being out of my depth on this stuff.  Wouldn't Ed Storms
> >or particularly Scott Little have found the U decay with his very sensitive
> >method?
>
> I'm way over my head as well, but I have done some work with it so I know a
> little about the measurement aspects.  No, Scott and Ed's measurements,
> unless taken over a long period of time would probably not lead them to
> think that there was anything significant in the samples if the amounts of U
> were truly small, say 2ppb.  Even if the measurements were taken over time
> there is a good chance that they might not see it for reasons I will explain
> below.  It might not even be a radioactive product that is causing this
> reaction, but this much I can tell you.  People, animals, insects, rocks,
> plants, - everything, basically, in their natural states are comprised of a
> large number of elements.  That is such a simple fact of life that I am a
> bit surprised that anyone would need to be told this, but here goes.

Let's examine some facts.  If uranium is the source of helium as has been
proposed, then it is possible to calculated the amount of uranium that needs to
be present.  Natural uranium contains two isotopes, U235 and U238.  A small
amount of 234 is also present by this results from the decay of U238. Each decay
produces multiple helium through a complex decay chain.  If we assume the
daughter products are in equilibrium, the accumulation rate of helium can be
calculated using the relationship  dN/dt = 0.69N/t where N is the number of
atoms present and dN/dt is the rate of atom decay.  This gives the equation He
atoms/g natural U = 0.9928 * 6.02*10^23*8*0.69/(4.47*10^9*238) + contribution
from U235.

Isotope    Abundance    Half-life(t)    # He   # He atoms/U atom /year
U235        0.718%      7.04x10^8 y      7          6.9x10-9
U238        99.276%    4.47x10^9 y      8          1.2x10-9

The amount of helium is 3.2 x 10^12 He atoms/ gm natural U/year with most coming
from the U238.  If the catalyst is 10 years old and 5 x 10^16 atoms of He are
required, the catalyst in the Case cell must contain 1563 gm of uranium.  This
is the minimum about which results only if sufficient time has elapsed for all
the daughters to decay. I think Scott and I would have seen this.

I would like to point out that this suggestion is another example of an
explanation which looks good on the surface but which can be shown to be
ridiculous.  Unfortunately, instead of the speculators doing their homework
work, people in the field who are trying to find out what actually is going on
have to spend valuable time answering such challenges.  Why don't the
speculators apply the same standards of scholarship to themselves they expect
from us?

>
> Plants take minerals out of the soil that they are in, and these trace
> amounts of whatever they are in go up the pipes, and actually become part of
> the matrix or geometry of the overall organism.  Simply roasting a coconut
> shell and calling it carbon is to me an oversimplification that only a PhD
> in Physics would do.:-)  Coffee grown in South America will contain Copper.
> Coffee grown in the Arabic countries will contain silica, and so on.  This
> is just the way.

This is all true but irrelevant.  Only naturally occurring alpha emitters need
to be considered and these are the heavy elements.  These elements are rare in
the soil and not readily taken up by plants. For example, radon which has been
given a lot of public attention is an inert gas which does not react and would
not be part of a plant structure unless it resulted from previous decay of
contained uranium.  While radon is an alpha emitter, which can not be detected
by a Geiger counter, it also emits a gamma ray, as do many alpha emitters, which
is detectable.  Therefore, the presence of radon can be detected easily even
when it is contained in a chunk of carbon.

As an aside, if you wipe the dust from a TV tube and check it with a Geiger
counter, you may find significant radioactivity which results from accumulated
radon. You would be surprised know how much radioactivity is in the natural
environment, but not enough to make so much helium.

Ed Storms




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 10:33:07 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ross Tessien <tessien oro.net>
Subject: Re: regulation of GM, vortexb
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95q.990625061740.26911B-100000 exeter>
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At 06:25 AM 6/25/99 +0100, you wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, Ross Tessien wrote:
>> Take the Political BS over to the other vortex b newsgroup and away from
>> this forum
>> 
>> rt
>> 
>Where do we take the Science BS? There's a lot of old,

We treat new comers with well trod, incorrect, ideas...........here.   We
are patient with scientific questions, even if they have been considered a
thousand times.  And we should try to keep the goofy stuff to a minimum.  I
am getting (as you are) around a hundred emails a day now and it is time
consuming to even glance at them.  Most are dumped without being read.

We don't need to add political stuff to the over filled scientific basket.

And NO, we do NOT need to be open to and deal with each and every question
about absolutely anything that comes up.  we are deailing with enough in
this forum and if the political nature of a problem is something you want
to talk about, then go talk about it in the forum that was set up for that
purpose.

rt

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 10:39:47 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ross Tessien <tessien oro.net>
Subject: Re: RCCNT conf. announcement
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Jed or anyone:


Does anyone know about the safety of travel through Russia at this time?
OK, I know I just trounced on a political message that was rambling, but
this is a question about the personal safety of people going to a
**scientific** conference   ;-)

Anyway, I was wondering about travel from Russia across to Belarus and on
to France via train and some people had told me that this would be
dangerous due to crime or gangs or something.  Anyone have **personal**
information on this?

rt


At 11:08 AM 6/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
>RUSSIAN ACADEMY OF SCIENCE
>RUSSIAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
>NUCLEAR SOCIETY OF RUSSIA
>MENDELEEV RUSSIAN CHEMICAL SOCIETY
>LOMONOSOV MOSCOW STATE UNIVERSITY
>RUSSIAN PEOPLE'S FRIENDSHIP UNIVERSITY
>MOSCOW STATE TECHNICAL UNIVERSITY (MADI)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 10:45:59 1999
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Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:44:01 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Virus Alert
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990625112701.00c3a5b0 spectre.mitre.org>
References: <3.0.5.32.19990625111209.00cb5830 spectre.mitre.org>
 <v01530500b398c1e889ce [12.21.208.185]>
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Robert I. Eachus writes:

	I just received an email message with subject Iccnt which has an
	attachment infected with a MS Word virus.  If you received it,
	don't open it.  If your anti-virus software doesn't warn you on
	receipt, get it updated.

Ulp! Obviously, I opened it. But not with MS Word: I used WordPerfect. No
problems so far . . .  I wonder if that species is sufficiently different
to avoid catching the virus? It is a good argument for software
biodiversity. I just scanned the subdirectory with McAfee VirusScan 3.1.6,
with files dated March 1998. It did not report any errors. I guess it is
too old, or this copy of the file does not have the virus. I wonder if it
is worth updating this software . . . I think I will erase the file and
hope for the best.

The ASCII copy I posted to Vortex obviously poses no threat. There's a lot
to be said for plain ASCII.

According to the New York Times, software viruses attacks per computer have
risen dramatically in recent years thanks to the Internet. I have never
been hit by one, and I never bothered to use anti-virus software until I
read that article and saw the graph of per-capita infections.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 11:04:41 1999
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Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:03:02 -0700
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ross Tessien <tessien oro.net>
Subject: Re: Virus Alert
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990625134401.007c9730 pop.mindspring.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.19990625112701.00c3a5b0 spectre.mitre.org>
 <3.0.5.32.19990625111209.00cb5830 spectre.mitre.org>
 <v01530500b398c1e889ce [12.21.208.185]>
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The rule I use is this:

I open absolutely no program, file, document that is addressed to me that I
did not request and which I did not know was coming.  This goes for screen
savers etc.  Basically, I use my computer as a tool, and not a toy, so I
can't afford for important information to be lost due to garbage like this.  

But the absolute last thing I would open would be anything that is a file
that came with a list of names, and not addressed to me personally from
someone I know personally.  I saw that file but did not open it, and then
subsequently read the virus listings.

Jed, you are in a bit of a predicament in that people send you stuff and
you don't know them.  You ought to perhaps have a firewall between your
important stuff and the net.  ie, the cheap computer on the net and all
your good stuff off elsewhere in a different computer and or different hard
drive.  

But you can usually tell if something is addressed to you due to the
introduction that says, "Hi Ross, here is the word file about the
.............  we were discussing the other day.

                   signed.................so and so"

With that, I would be inclined to open it since I know the person and we in
fact did talk.  But if I didn't know the person and they said the same
thing, or if I didn't remember the conversation, ................straight
to the trash bin!

Ross

At 01:44 PM 6/25/99 -0400, you wrote:


>According to the New York Times, software viruses attacks per computer have
>risen dramatically in recent years thanks to the Internet. I have never
>been hit by one, and I never bothered to use anti-virus software until I
>read that article and saw the graph of per-capita infections.
>
>- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 11:07:17 1999
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From: Cornwall RO <R.O.Cornwall city.ac.uk>
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Ross,
You are quite right but I hate things done by stealth. Routine
manipulation of embyros 20 years ago whould have caught the public's eye.
Now they seem so docile. It seems to me that if one doesn't take part in
forming societies values, one gets the society one deserves.
(In future, I'll try not to say 'I told you so')
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 11:08:32 1999
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Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 14:07:47 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Russian conference....  Re: Virus Alert Which is Which ???
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990625130019.6499B-100000 college.antioch-co
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At 01:01 PM 6/25/1999 -0400, John Schnurer wrote:
>	Dear Folks....
>
>	Are you confused?
>
>	I am....  See below.........
>
>	Q:  Virus alert ???
>	Q:  Russian Conference ???
>
>	Q:  Which is what ???

    I recieved a posting, apparently, but not necessarily from Gnedenko,
which included a Word virus as part of the enclosure.  Since the message
appeared to be related to this list, I posted to let people know that they
should not open the document without an up-to-date Virus Checker.  It is
possible that the virus was added in transit, and as I indicated, without a
lot of checking I can't verify that the message came from the apparent
sender.  (Of course, even if Gnedenko did send it, it may be just as nuch a
victim with an infected computer, which is probably the most likely case.)
For the record, the message I got was:

Date: 6/25/1999, Time: 10:47:20, eachus on BLOFELD
The file C:\program files\eudora\attach\Iccnt.doc
is infected with the W97M.Ethan.A virus.
Access to the file was denied.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Virus Alert
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990625134401.007c9730 pop.mindspring.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.19990625112701.00c3a5b0 spectre.mitre.org>
 <3.0.5.32.19990625111209.00cb5830 spectre.mitre.org>
 <v01530500b398c1e889ce [12.21.208.185]>
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At 01:44 PM 6/25/1999 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Ulp! Obviously, I opened it. But not with MS Word: I used WordPerfect. No
>problems so far . . . 

     You should be okay.  Word viruses use embeded macros that are
Microsoft specific.

>           I just scanned the subdirectory with McAfee VirusScan 3.1.6,
>with files dated March 1998. It did not report any errors. I guess it is
>too old, or this copy of the file does not have the virus. I wonder if it
>is worth updating this software . . .

    Definitely.  I have both McAfee and Norton installed and update the
files via the web regularly.   I have never had McAfee find a virus,
because Norton has always been there first.

>The ASCII copy I posted to Vortex obviously poses no threat. There's a lot
>to be said for plain ASCII.

    No, there is a lot to be said for eliminating the #$%# !#* convention
used by Microsoft OSes to open documents with the "apropriate" tool.
Fortunately you can disable most of the holes in MSWord, but you can't with
Excell.

>According to the New York Times, software viruses attacks per computer have
>risen dramatically in recent years thanks to the Internet. I have never
>been hit by one, and I never bothered to use anti-virus software until I
>read that article and saw the graph of per-capita infections.

    Uh wrong! If you were never using anti-virus software you have no idea
how many have hit you, and installing anti-viral software on an inifected
system is a waste of time with some viruses.  I recommend installing a
clean copy of the OS on a removable drive.  (I use a Jaz drive.)  Then
booting from that and checking your system from time to time.  Personally I
have received three different infected documents in the past year, for a
total of five events.  One of those came from a co-worker who hadn't
updated his anti-virus software for three months.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 12:14:22 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 15:18:24 -0400
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Ed wrote:
>I would like to point out that this suggestion is another example of an
>explanation which looks good on the surface but which can be shown to be
>ridiculous.  Unfortunately, instead of the speculators doing their homework
>work, people in the field who are trying to find out what actually is going on
>have to spend valuable time answering such challenges.  Why don't the
>speculators apply the same standards of scholarship to themselves they expect
>from us?

These numbers Ed, are the ones that came out of your NRC approved books.
Get a first edition of Wittaker's formulae, published before he came on to
the international scene, and they will give you better results.  Like I
said, I did it, with trace quantities, and it jolly well worked for me.
Others have successfully done it as well.  My "homework" is done.  And one
more thing, if you decide to do it, be careful.  It nearly did me in.

Knuke



Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 12:15:39 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Virus Alert
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 15:18:22 -0400
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>At 11:27 AM 6/25/99, Robert I. Eachus wrote:
>>    I just received an email message with subject Iccnt which has an
>>attachment infected with a MS Word virus.
>
>The contents were just posted on vortex by Jed (see below).  The posting
>was in text, so no virus transmitted, but everybody addressed on the
>original announcement might be at risk.  Vortex seems a bit quiet all of a
>sudden.  I hope people haven't been zapped.  Looks like Gnedenko has been
>zapped.

My server got hit with something a few days ago, that scrambled a lot of
passwords and reset a lot of peoples' Windows settings.  It affected so many
people that I couldn't even get through to the tech line for 2 days.  My
Inet provider is using a stock version of WinNT for server software, and I
told the tech guy "You know, if you're using NT, you might as well change
the name of the service to www.doorknob.com"  He laughed and said that he
had just changed his home machine over to LINUX, and that the management was
"starting to think" about doing it at the server.  I thought, well,
"starting to think" is always a good idea...;)

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 12:18:15 1999
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Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:16:31 -0700
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ross Tessien <tessien oro.net>
Subject: Off Topic, was: Re: vortexb
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At 07:04 PM 6/25/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Ross,
>You are quite right but I hate things done by stealth. Routine
>manipulation of embyros 20 years ago whould have caught the public's eye.
>Now they seem so docile. It seems to me that if one doesn't take part in
>forming societies values, one gets the society one deserves.
>(In future, I'll try not to say 'I told you so')
>Remi.

Sorry for the below post as it is off topic.  But there is a perception by
Remi that just because we want to limit discussion to scientific issues,
that we have no concern for the morality of the issues.  I won't follow
this up and the comments below speak a tiny bit of my opinion on the
matter, but this is not the place for it.  Read it if you are interested,
and dump it if not.

rt


************************************************************************
I have spent four years contemplating the societal implications of what I
am doing and of what is going on in the CF industry.  Just because we want
to limit discussion in a certain forum to scientific issues does NOT mean
that we do not consider socio political ramifications of the issues.

At the ground level, I have taken tremendous precautions that none of my
employees are hurt by our experiments in contrast to many other
laboratories.  I assume that these things could explode first, and then ask
questions later.

And I have spent about two intense years of that time trying to figure out
if there was any conceivable way these devices could be used to make bombs,
or to make materials for bombs.  I conclude there is not, or that if there
is, it would be easier to make the materials using techniques already known.

Hence, just because discussion in a certain group is limited to a certain
set of topics, don't presume that we have closed minds as to the other
things going on in the world.  The point is, no one person can take care of
all of societies issues.  We need to take care of the ones we know best,
and then move to sway the opinions of those in the political arena via our
actions in *******their********* forums.

But this list is a scientific list.  And our work is the most important
work going on today across the entire planet.  Our success will determine
the numbers of wars over energy in the near future.  Our success will
determine the numbers of jobs lost in the oil and coal industries.  Our
success will determine the numbers of third world people that can enjoy the
access to energy now enjoyed by those of us in the West.  Our success is
critical to the very survival of mankind.

 Do not presume that because the movie pictures portray Americans as money
grubbing spiritually dead morons that this is the case.  The movies portray
the minority of Americans performing extraordinary feats so that the film
is interesting and exciting to the average American.  The problem is, the
rest of the world presumes that the movies portray the average American
which is not the case.

Now, I don't need or care to see any follow ups on this email as this is
out in the political arena and should be in vortex-b for the very reasons I
mentioned previously.  But I thought that because the comments by Remi
touched on a sensitive issue dealing with the morality of those working on
vortex-l, that I should set the record straight.  I for one, live in a
small community with no locked doors, I walk to town and always see many
people I know.  We take care of one another.  This, is the majority of
rural America, not what you see in the movies.

rt


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 12:28:10 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>,
        John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Question to any Russian or others about MIR
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	Dear Folks,

	I am trying to find out if anyone has any information about MIR...

	There is supposed to be an American going to fly up to and go onto
MIR.

	Is this TRUE ????

	He might be... if this is true ... a Mr. Lewellyn.

				J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 12:33:54 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Virus Alert
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References: <3.0.6.32.19990625134401.007c9730 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3.0.5.32.19990625112701.00c3a5b0 spectre.mitre.org>
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Robert I. Eachus writes:

I have never
>>been hit by one, and I never bothered to use anti-virus software until I
>>read that article and saw the graph of per-capita infections.
>
>    Uh wrong! If you were never using anti-virus software you have no idea
>how many have hit you, and installing anti-viral software on an inifected
>system is a waste of time with some viruses.

I meant that nothing bad has happened with any my computers. I have not
seen any symptoms like files mysteriously disappearing or the computer
crashing without an obvious cause. Win 98 crashes frequently, but I know
which programs cause the problems. If this computer is infected, it is a
benign infection that causes no harm to the host, like most of biological
bacteria and viruses.

I doubt there are any viruses here because I never download programs, I
have seldom received formatted documents, and I do not use Microsoft
software, except Windows.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 12:41:47 1999
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Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 15:42:58 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Virus Alert
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At 03:18 PM 6/25/1999 -0400, Michael T Huffman wrote:
>My server got hit with something a few days ago, that scrambled a lot of
>passwords and reset a lot of peoples' Windows settings.  It affected so many
>people that I couldn't even get through to the tech line for 2 days.  My
>Inet provider is using a stock version of WinNT for server software, and I
>told the tech guy "You know, if you're using NT, you might as well change
>the name of the service to www.doorknob.com"  He laughed and said that he
>had just changed his home machine over to LINUX, and that the management was
>"starting to think" about doing it at the server.  I thought, well,
>"starting to think" is always a good idea...;)

    Yep.  However, Windows NT can be made reasonably secure if you know
what you are doing, and don't install certain products.  MITRE has produced
a CD that installs this way for the Air Force.  (Not only do we have all
the required licenses and permissions, but we have some PC vendors
preloading it for us.  It would be nice to get Microsoft to make that the
default version (actually to make a similar default version) but don't hold
your breath.

    Of course WinNT is 1000% better than Win95, but Linux (which incidently
I have installed at home) is 200% better than WinNT.  (At this point I have
no quantitative estimate on Win2000 other that WAIT at least until next year.)

    I do not recommend Linux for web servers, I recommend Solaris, but that
is mostly a scalability issue.  We are also looking at some neat file
servers that look like NT to Microsoft OSes, look like ufs to Unix boxes,
and can serve as PDC or BDC in an NT domain.  (If you don't understand
that, ignore it.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 12:48:31 1999
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Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:46:28 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
Organization: Energy K System
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Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Ed wrote:
> >I would like to point out that this suggestion is another example of an
> >explanation which looks good on the surface but which can be shown to be
> >ridiculous.  Unfortunately, instead of the speculators doing their homework
> >work, people in the field who are trying to find out what actually is going on
> >have to spend valuable time answering such challenges.  Why don't the
> >speculators apply the same standards of scholarship to themselves they expect
> >from us?
>
> These numbers Ed, are the ones that came out of your NRC approved books.
> Get a first edition of Wittaker's formulae, published before he came on to
> the international scene, and they will give you better results.  Like I
> said, I did it, with trace quantities, and it jolly well worked for me.
> Others have successfully done it as well.  My "homework" is done.  And one
> more thing, if you decide to do it, be careful.  It nearly did me in.

I have no idea what you are talking about.  The numbers used in the calculation
are accepted values as listed by several sources .  If you have better values,
please tell me what they are. The formula used for calculating decay rate is also
accepted and its basis can be found in Friedlander and Kennedy.  The one
assumption (that the daughters are in equilibrium) gives the minimum amount of
uranium necessary.  Please tell me how you did the calculation.

Ed Storms


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 13:28:40 1999
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Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 15:28:02 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
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At 13:46 6/25/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:

>The numbers used in the calculation
>are accepted values as listed by several sources .  If you have better
values,
>please tell me what they are. The formula used for calculating decay rate
is also
>accepted and its basis can be found in Friedlander and Kennedy.  The one
>assumption (that the daughters are in equilibrium) gives the minimum
amount of
>uranium necessary.  Please tell me how you did the calculation.

I agree with your calcs, Ed.  There's no way 5E16 He atoms could come out
of ~10 grams of this catalyst due to U,Th contamination. Period.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 13:37:49 1999
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Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:38:42 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
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At 3:18 PM 6/25/99, Michael T Huffman wrote:

>These numbers Ed, are the ones that came out of your NRC approved books.
>Get a first edition of Wittaker's formulae, published before he came on to
>the international scene, and they will give you better results.  Like I
>said, I did it, with trace quantities, and it jolly well worked for me.

What is the "it" you did?  Could you tell us in detail?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 13:59:03 1999
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X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 21:57:57 +0100 (BST)
From: Cornwall RO <R.O.Cornwall city.ac.uk>
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To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Question to any Russian or others about MIR
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John,
I think Mir has been condemed. I think it's being shifted to a decaying
orbit due to re-enter next year.
Remi.
On Fri, 25 Jun 1999, John Schnurer wrote:

> 
> 
> 	Dear Folks,
> 
> 	I am trying to find out if anyone has any information about MIR...
> 
> 	There is supposed to be an American going to fly up to and go onto
> MIR.
> 
> 	Is this TRUE ????
> 
> 	He might be... if this is true ... a Mr. Lewellyn.
> 
> 				J
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 14:05:09 1999
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Robin, 

Just why is it that Windows is so crappy? Unix has all it permissions but
one can crash root processes and get a way in. I remember Myself and Brian
Burns, our techie watch as some ***hole hacker blantanly tried to crash
sendmail in front of our very eyes a few years ago. 

BTW, apologies to Americans for tarring you all with the same brush.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 14:05:20 1999
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Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 17:04:13 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Other methods of detecting helium leaks
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I'd like to point out, briefly, that McKubre and other researchers employ
various  methods of detecting helium contamination which have not been
discussed here. That is, they have ways of determining whether the helium
originated in situ as alpha particles in the cell, or whether it leaked in
from the atmosphere. The two most common methods are, I believe, to measure
the ratio of helium to neon (or argon?), and helium-4 to helium-3. McKubre
has been doing this. He said he will have more to report about his helium-3
results later.

My point is, there are conventional ways to eliminate the contamination
hypothesis. We do not need to investigate speculative new ideas about
osmosis or helium retention in carbon. The carbon hypothesis is
particularly unproductive because it can never be proved or disproved. A
skeptic can always claim that the other samples just happened to hold
10,000 times more helium than the ones you looked at, or a million times
more, or whatever.

To prove something I think you must demonstrate two or more independent,
unrelated properties, such as heat and helium, or helium isotope ratios, or
heat and neutrons. I cannot think of any independent property to correlate
and test the carbon hypothesis. For example, you cannot say: "all samples
of carbon with Property X will also hold a million times more helium than
normal samples, so look for X-type carbon and you will see the helium" --
where X is something like the presence of microtubes or buckyballs. The
hypothesis as it now stands is too poorly defined and too speculative to
resolved one way or the other.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 14:20:10 1999
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Remi asks:

>Just why is it that Windows is so crappy?

For same reason the typewriter keyboard is so crappy, and railroad lines in
New York go places people no longer want to go, and Japanese characters are
so hard to read, and your appendix gets infected too easily, and why the
English language changed so rapidly after the Norman invasion. It is the
Legacy Problem. These evolved and changed, but they always carried within
them the original designs, which came about more or less by happenstance
and coincidence. Windows is DOS with a bag on it; it must work with
programs written 20 years ago. If it fails to work with old programs and
old hardware, customers will think "why bother with this, I'll try the new
one instead," and Microsoft's hegemony will collapse. In a sense, Microsoft
has become hostage to its own success and its market domination. The
gigantic accretion of backwards compatible old applications makes Windows
increasingly unreliable. Eventually, a catastrophe will occur, and the
Windows "language" will change rapidly and shed dysfunctional old
accretions, or it will die. This is what happened English after 1066 Norman
invasion, and Japanese after the 1945 occupation.

Similar patterns of development can be seen in natural history, political
history, technology and business.

Oh, also because Bill Gates is a weenie.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 14:22:11 1999
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Subject: Re: Other methods of detecting helium leaks
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At 05:04 PM 6/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I'd like to point out, briefly, that McKubre and other researchers employ
>various  methods of detecting helium contamination which have not been
>discussed here. That is, they have ways of determining whether the helium
>originated in situ as alpha particles in the cell, or whether it leaked in
>from the atmosphere. The two most common methods are, I believe, to measure
>the ratio of helium to neon (or argon?), and helium-4 to helium-3. McKubre
>has been doing this. He said he will have more to report about his helium-3
>results later.
>
>My point is, there are conventional ways to eliminate the contamination
>hypothesis.

I agree that the He3 : He4 ratio would be very compelling.  But the ratio
of He to Ne deals with atomic species with very different mean KE
velocities at the same temp conditions.  Hence, if we are dealing with some
sort of semi permeable membrane sort of effect, this might not be a good
check as the masses are substantially different and hence the velocities
will be substantially different.

I would be very interested in the He3 He4 ratio, that would be something to
ponder.


 We do not need to investigate speculative new ideas about
>osmosis or helium retention in carbon. The carbon hypothesis is
>particularly unproductive because it can never be proved or disproved. A
>skeptic can always claim that the other samples just happened to hold
>10,000 times more helium than the ones you looked at, or a million times
>more, or whatever.

Jed, this doesn't make sense.  If you hold out a sealed sample of material
from each batch you put into the test chamber, then, when the test in the
chamber turns out positive, you check that batch of charcoal.  If it is
full of He, then you have found a contamination path.  If it has no He in
it, and you have eliminated the vessel walls and the materials in the
vessel as the source of He, then your observation and assertion that it was
produced in a nuclear reaction stands on firm ground.

Osmosis is real and it is used to purify gases such as hydrogen.  Don't
close your eyes to this fact.  There is no reason to believe that He
doesn't also penetrate membranes, we know it does.  

And you are wrong on it not being able to be disproved.  If you run a
positive test and have reserved some of the material that went into the
test, and you test that material for He and it has none, then you have
proved that He was not a contaminant in the original materials.

this is simple science.  You always hold out some of the materials you put
into the reaction cell for later testing in case something unusual happens.
 It is poor scientific practice to put all of your material into the cell
such that when the cell works you have none of the starting materials to test.

rt


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 14:32:32 1999
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Subject: In support of Tom Valone
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 17:28:04 -0000
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This is a very gratifying letter showing that rational thought may prevail
in the physics community and in the government eventually.

Thomas Valone
Patent Examiner
703-305-4912
CP4-8C05


-----Original Message-----
From:	David.Hamilton ee.doe.gov <mailto:David.Hamilton@ee.doe.gov>
[SMTP:David.Hamilton ee.doe.gov] 
<mailto:[SMTP:David.Hamilton ee.doe.gov]> 
Sent:	Friday, June 25, 1999 11:01 AM
To:	Valone, Thomas
Subject:	



To Whom it my Concern;
Thomas Valone has, in my opinion, demonstrated outstanding character and
determination to carryout his mission and duties as a government official
for the patent office.  He has gone beyond the call of duty in his 
attempts
to disseminate information and his resent work to organize the Conference 
on
Future Energy (COFE) is a fine example.  I find it unfortunate that some
individuals are so negatively polarized on some of these topics, however
their assault on Thomas Valone is totally unwarranted.  The COFE provided 
a
valuable service that facilitated communication between highly qualified
scientists and engineers to review high-risk science with the public in an
open forum.  Investors of the private sector also participated and were 
able
to gain insight from this communication between and the reviews of,
scientists who require funding.  Granted some of the topics had high risk,
but it appears to be general consensus that the fringe areas of Nature are
where the major advances in physics are expected.  Mr. Valone, as a
government employee, properly showed an open hand and no prejudice in
reviewing such research.
I participated at the COFE in my official capacity as a program manager 
for
the Department of Energy to present a public programmatic overview of my
programs and to review the science and technologies of others.   As a 
result
of the COFE several low energy nuclear reaction experiments were discussed
in detail between the researchers and several scientists, including those
with nuclear backgrounds.  Although I see this as a basic science, our
discussion uncovered the possible complex nature of low energy nuclear
reactions that may explain its elusive nature.  The evidence analyzed 
showed
a myriad array of chemical and nuclear reactions performing both 
endothermic
and exothermic processes.  Granted there are materials and instrument 
error
possibilities, but prejudice is not scientific grounds to dispel
experimental evidence.  Only rigorous analysis of the data, experimental
setup and instrumentation is a valid test.  These are not the medieval 
times
and scientific method, not opinion should lead us into the future.

				Sincerely,

				David B. Hamilton
				US Department of Energy, EE-32
				1000 Independence Ave, SW
				Washington, DC 20585
				Phone:    202-586-2314
				Fax: 202-586-7409



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 14:38:26 1999
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Vo,

Does anybody know anybody who makes a really low powered TIG welder?

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 15:09:52 1999
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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Quasiatoms & CF?
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To; Vortex

I ran across an article on "Quasiatoms"on my McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of
Science and Technology CD, the other day.

It seems that a collision between  the Protons of H2 or the Deuterons of D2
 or H+ +  H  or D+  +  D etc., can form Quasiatoms that resemble Helium, if
the approach is less than the ground-state electron orbital radius, and at
high energy can  concurrently produce an Electron-Positron Pair.

The electrostatic repulsive force between  two Protons at a separation equal
to the Bohr Radius:

Fes = kq^2/R^2 =  8.233E-8  (newtons) and at 1/4 the Bohr radius = 1.317E-6
(newtons).

The Potential: kq/R = 1.44E-9/5.29E-11 = 27.22 ev at the Bohr radius
separation and
54.44 ev at 1/2, and 108.88 ev at 1/4 the Bohr radius separation etc.

Given that low energy collisions could create Light Lepton Pairs, with
millions of times less energy/mass than the Electron-Positron Pair, at some
"Resonance" energy the nuclei could conceivably "Fuse" into a heavier atom
or effect transmutation of  heavy atoms:

1,  H + H + LL +/- ---> D + LL+  +  LL-   +  Neutrino  + ? Mev

2, D + D +  LL +/- ---> He4  + LL+  +  LL-  +  Neutrino +?Mev

Weekend Project, Robin?  :-)

Regards,     Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 15:24:06 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l mail.eskimo.com>
Subject: Cleaning probe for Case cell
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 18:22:13 -0400
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Vortex,

We recently received a new dual thermocouple probe in a thin stainless steel
thermal well that is to be used in the Case cell.  Not being a chemist, I
need some advice on what kind of solvent to use to clean the probe.  I was
thinking of some alcohol or acetone.  I'm not sure what is on the probe now
besides finger oil.

Thanks,

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

"It is scientific only to say what's more likely and less likely and not to
be proving all the time possible and impossible."
Richard Feynman, 1964

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 15:55:25 1999
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Subject: La Joie: Re: 9.53 ug He adsorbed by 1 gm activated carbon  6.23.99
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: 9.53 ug He adsorbed by 1 gm activated carbon  6.23.99
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:13:14 GMT
From: Steve La Joie <lajoie eskimo.com>
Organization: Eskimo North For-Ever
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion,sci.physics,sci.skeptic
References: <3771C85B.A20DCED3 earthlink.net>

Richard T. Murray wrote:

[snip]

> Convection currents and temperatures in the catalytic bed would
> differ for H2 and D2, as would reaction rates.  Some
> arrangements are bound 

Bound to?

> to exist that show helium release with D2,
> but not H2.  Therefore, it is premature to claim that the Case
> cell shows evidence of nuclear reactions.

The control cell was flushed of H2 and filled with D2, and still
no He was produced. Since the Pd was loaded with Hydrogen, and
there wasn't really sufficent temperature to unload it, the none
fusion is not surprising.

If it was a chemical reaction that would happen with D2 but not H2
in the carbon that caused trapped helium to be released in the 
carbon, then 1) Why no 3He? Some should have shown up after 28 
days. 2) Why wasn't the 4He released in the control cell when 
it was filled with D2? 3) Released He would be initially large
and then taper off as it reached equilibrium with the vessel.
Our curve doesn't look like this. What mechanism do you propose
to have He released this way?
 
> It is interesting in recent days to see posts by many experts on
> the nonexistence of helium adsorption in activated carbon
> at room temperature at 1 atm, since a major report was published
> in Nature in 1960.

Yeah.
 
> Rich Murray  Room For All
> 1943  Otowi Drive
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505
> 505-986-9103  505-920-6130  rmforall earthlink.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 15:56:22 1999
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Ed -

> Vo,
> 
> Does anybody know anybody who makes a really low powered TIG welder?
>
> Ed Wall


Miller's "Dynasty DX" goes down to 5A. Their "Aerowave" goes down to 1A. The
Aerowave's the large cabinet style unit - big buck-olas.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 16:05:54 1999
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Subject: Shanahan: leaks in George Case cell?  6.25.99
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Subject: Re: Murray: quote you on leaks?
   Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:55 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Kirk.Shanahan srs.gov
     To: rmforall earthlink.net

Hi Rich,
     
You may quote me on the following:
     
The only information I have on the McKubre/George replication of the 
Case experiment comes from Russ George's Web paper at 
http://rsrch.com/saturna/APSpapers_1998_1999.htm  (called "the paper" 
herein).
     
Based on that, I can make a few comments.  
     
First the 11 ppm He signal obtained in 27 days needs to be translated 
to standard leak rate units to be compared to common experience.  
Standard He leak rates are expressed as std cc/sec, meaning you 
calculate the volume of He leaked into or out of your vessel per 
second, and convert that volume to STP (Standard Temp and Pressure, 
273 deg K and 1 atm.)  The problem is knowing what volume we are leaking 
into, since it has not been reported exactly.  The paper lists a 50cc 
cell volume, and about 20 cc of Pd/C catalyst, but does not account 
for the piping to the valves shown in the cell picture.  I will assume 
a 50 cc volume.  I will also assume the base temperature of 200C.  
     
"11 ppm" is also assumed to be by volume, meaning you have 11 parts He 
per million parts of gas (primarily hydrogen or deuterium).  So
     
11 e-6 * 50 cc = 5.5e-4 cc He (at 3.4 atm and 200C) 
     
This converts to 1.08e-3 std cc of He (pressure change to STP will 
expand the gas, temp change will contract it, expansion seems to win 
here) that has appeared in the cell.  27 days = 2.33e6 seconds, so the 
leak rate is 4.6e-10 std cc He/sec.  This is a very small leak.  That 
means it will be difficult to eliminate it by design features.
     
The paper specifies Cajon and Swagelock fittings in the system, and 
the cell picture shows what appears to me to be a Cajon VCR fitting 
with a Nupro H or HK series valve.  Let's consider what that means.  
According to Cajon and Nupro sales literature, standard VCR fittings 
are leak tested to 4e-9 std cc He/sec.  Special "S" or "VS" type 
fittings are tested to 4 or 5e-11 std cc He/sec.  The Nupro H and HK 
valves are tested to the 4e-9 level (this includes the bellows that 
separates the vacuum side from air, and the valve seat itself).  
     
So, depending on the type of parts used, the observed leak rate may be 
smaller than the manufacturer's _best_ possible seals.  And even if 
the better type was used the question remains as to whether an 
adequate seal was made.  Slight misalignments can cause small leaks.  
And further, I will bet the seals were made at room temperature and 
heated up.  Our experience here is that that can introduce leaks as 
well. 
     
McK/Geo need to specify full details for us to evaluate.  We need to 
evaluate the leak testing procedures they used to see if they 
adequately tested the leak tightness of their cells.  (Each and every 
one, since every new seal represents a new chance to leak.)
     
I personally rate the chance that the observed He comes from a leak at 
about 50-75%.  (I rate the idea of a stored and chemically displaced 
He at about 10%.)  However, that does require some comment about the 
11 ppm vs. 5.2 ppm numbers.  
     
How can you get 11 ppm in a vessel that has had He leak in from the 
atmosphere which we _know_ ( ;-) ) is 5.22 ppm?  There are two obvious 
answers.  1.  The leak source was actually at 11 ppm or greater. 2.  
There is a calibration error (meaning the 11 is not 11 but something 
else in truth.)
     
George makes several assumptions in the paper.  The biggest is that 
the leak source is lab air, which contains 5.22 ppm.  First off, the 
specific cell showing the He should be leak tested, without any 
disassembly, to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a leak of >1e-10 
std cc He/sec does not exist in the cell and valve assembly.
     
If a leak is found, the assumption of the leak source being air needs 
to be checked.  Depending on the leak checking technology used, the 
leak site may have been identified.  
     
I am worrying here about a back leak from the calibration gas into the 
system and into the cell.  This is a small probability, but a possible 
one, since the valve seat material in an H series valve is quite 
different from an HK.  HK valves are usually Kel-F seals, which is a 
soft polymeric material rated for use from -40 to 93C.  You can get 
these valves with a copper seat material that is rated for use up to 
204C.  The H series valves are all stainless steel, and are rated for 
use from -62C to 315C.  So again, depending on the valve used we have 
the possibility of valve seat degradation due to heat, temperature 
cycling, and repeated use.  H series valves or equivalent would be 
best.
     
If the presumed leak is from air, then we are back at where Dieter 
Britz was on spf.  The lab air has no requirement that it be at 5.22 
ppm.  Depending on who is using He in the building when and the air 
flow patterns in the building, the local He concentration could well 
be different.  It must be checked.
     
Further, there is a subtle problem possible here as well.  I assume 
(there's that word again) that the cells are well insulated and 
covered when in use.  If the covering is good enough, it might trap a 
pocket of air in the calorimeter from the point where the apparatus 
was assembled, and measuring the daily lab air He content would not be 
relevant.
     
The only calibration information shown is one spectrum labeled as 
about 1.76 ppm.  How was that spectrum determined to be that produced 
from 1.76 ppm He in deuterium?  "Inquiring minds want to know."  
     
The figure showing ppm He as a function of time needs to be extended 
for awhile.  If it stops rising and levels off, then that could be 
interpreted as the equilibrium between the leak source and the cell, 
and it might offer a clue as to whether a calibration error is 
present.  (Of course it could also mean the CF reaction has 
mysteriously stopped.)
     
High resolution mass spectrometry has as much chance of being messed 
up as any other analytical technique.  When a revolution in physics 
and chemistry is at stake, the details must be shown.
    
All of these concerns are simple to address with an experimental 
protocol aimed at clarifying what is going on. I am waiting for some 
publication that addresses these issues.
     
Kirk Shanahan  {{My opinions...noone else's}}

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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
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Subject: Re: Virus Alert
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990625171838.0079a4f0 pop.mindspring.com> from Jed Rothwell at "Jun 25, 99 05:18:38 pm"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 18:25:19 -0500 (CDT)
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Jed wrote: 
> >Just why is it that Windows is so crappy?
> 
> For same reason the typewriter keyboard is so crappy

A widespread, but none the less, false myth.

In most independent tests, the challengers to the QWERTY
keyboard fare no better in training time versus typing
speed/accuracy -- including the hyped Dvorak.

The big historical test conducted by the Navy that was
supposed to prove the advantage of Dvorak was, drum
roll please, conducted by a naval officer by the
name of Dvorak -- a fact he failed to mention when
later claiming the Navy study as proof of the benefit
of his system.

Most of the rest of the QWERTY myth is just plain wrong.

It is widely alledged that the fate of all typewriter
keyboards was determined in one speed test in which a
skilled QWERTY typist faced a hunk-n-peck typist of
a competiting keyboard.

This particular bogus claim is easily disproven by refering
to newspaper articles of the day which list many such
speed challenges.  The typing rates were very high on all
keyboards -- indicating the high level of training.  There
were no "mismatches."  QWERTY simply won many such
contests -- a fact later demonstrated in the middle of
this century when IBM conducted its own internal study
of keyboards and found no particular advantage to any
particular keyboard, including the Dvorak which appeared
half a century after the introduction of QWERTY.

The idea that QWERTY was locked in early is also untenable.
There were no pools of typists then, the typewriter
companies usually had to provide typists training or
personnel along with their machines, so each typewriter
vendor had an equal opportunity to sell machines.

And as you can see by examining old typewriters, changing
key layouts only required a re-soldering process, so that
if there were any huge benefit to one layout over the
other, a company could have all its typewriters retooled
rather easily.

They never did -- because they knew then from the widely
reported contests around the country that QWERTY was an
effective layout -- and that hasn't changed in the last
century -- not better keyboard layout has ever been 
produced that is any easier to learn or exceed in
performance in anyway than the QWERTY.

Myth be gone.


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

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        dperkins unitedcatalysts.com
Subject: McKubre: Blue: Rothwell: Tessein: Schaffer: Little: comments on Case He 
 6.25.99
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Subject: Re: Murray: 9.53 ug He adsorbed by 1 gm activated carbon
             6.23.99
        Date:  Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:46:50 -0700
       From:   "Michael C H McKubre" <michael.mckubre sri.com>
 Organization:  ERC SRI
         To:   "Richard T. Murray" <rmforall earthlink.net>
 
Rich - Interesting citation and calculation.  If generalizable, the
possibility that carbon can sequester meaningful amounts of He should
severely trouble the mass spectroscopists (including us), who have
historically used charcoal traps to selectively absorb H
(and NOT He), in quantifying the He present in mixed gas samples.
This possibility would call into question the accuracy of all such
studies performed by the Bureau of Mines people in Amarillo Texas,
and by Brian Oliver (at Rockwell and now at PNL).  My own suspicion
is that, IF there is a problem with He pre-absorption, THEN the
culprit is not carbon.  Any postulated problem must be of SPOT
not GENERAL contamination, since random samples taken from the same
lot (the same bag!) do not show any tendency to release He, in
vacuum, H2 or D2 atmospheres, at the same temperatures (170 - 250°C)
and times (months).  There may be something that looks like charcoal,
but strongly absorbs He.  I would be grateful to receive
(well considered) suggestions.
You may post this if you wish.   Mike McKubre.

Subject: RE: Perkins of United Catalyst Inc.: generous offer of free
catalyst for He testing 6.24.99
   Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:43:44 -0400
   From: "Richard Blue" <blue pilot.msu.edu>
     To: "'Richard T. Murray'" <rmforall earthlink.net>

I point is, I think, not that one can neccessarily point a finger to
specify just how it is that the catalyst becomes a potential source
of helium, but rather that it is NOT  well excluded from being a
source.  The activated charcoal gives the Case cell a long memory,
if you like.  Evacuation is not a particularly effective way to
remove adsorbed gases from anything.

The bottom line is that anyone wishing to demonstrate the production
of helium in trace quantities could make much wiser choices of material
to have within the supposed production volume than activated charcoal.
When there is absolutely no information concerning a process whereby
the catalyst might enhance some process, whatever that process may be,
the catalyst may be nothing more than a troublesome source of
contamination.

Experiments designed and conducted in such an appalling state of
ignorance as is this example are never likely to yield earth-shattering
new results.  You will never prove that the helium that shows up is
the result of an unknown nuclear process.  If you allow that something
previously "unknown" is likely the explanation for these observations,
you still must consider any number of other possibilities.  It is
impossibly to narrow the choices down to "cold fusion" as the only
possibility.

Dick Blue

Subject:  Re: Other methods of detecting helium leaks
  Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 14:20:52 -0700
 Resent-From:  vortex-l eskimo.com
        Date:  Fri, 25 Jun 1999 14:20:35 -0700
        From:  Ross Tessien <tessien oro.net>
    Reply-To:  vortex-l eskimo.com
          To:  vortex-l eskimo.com

At 05:04 PM 6/25/99 -0400, you [ Jed Rothwell ] wrote:
>I'd like to point out, briefly, that McKubre and other researchers
>employ various  methods of detecting helium contamination which have
>not been discussed here. That is, they have ways of determining
>whether the helium originated in situ as alpha particles in the
>cell, or whether it leaked in from the atmosphere. The two most
>common methods are, I believe, to measure the ratio of helium to
>neon (or argon?), and helium-4 to helium-3. McKubre has been doing
>this. He said he will have more to report about his helium-3
>results later.
>
>My point is, there are conventional ways to eliminate the
>contamination hypothesis.

I agree that the He3 : He4 ratio would be very compelling.  But the
ratio of He to Ne deals with atomic species with very different mean
KE velocities at the same temp conditions.  Hence, if we are dealing
with some sort of semipermeable membrane sort of effect, this might
not be a good check, as the masses are substantially different, and
hence the velocities will be substantially different.

I would be very interested in the He3 He4 ratio, that would be
something to ponder.

>We do not need to investigate speculative new ideas about
>osmosis or helium retention in carbon. The carbon hypothesis is
>particularly unproductive because it can never be proved or
>disproved. A skeptic can always claim that the other samples just
>happened to hold 10,000 times more helium than the ones you looked
>at, or a million times more, or whatever.

Jed, this doesn't make sense.  If you hold out a sealed sample of
material from each batch you put into the test chamber, then, when
the test in the chamber turns out positive, you check that batch of
charcoal.  If it is full of He, then you have found a contamination
path.  If it has no He in it, and you have eliminated the vessel
walls and the materials in the vessel as the source of He, then
your observation and assertion that it was produced in a nuclear
reaction stands on firm ground.

Osmosis is real and it is used to purify gases such as hydrogen.
Don't close your eyes to this fact.  There is no reason to believe
that He doesn't also penetrate membranes, we know it does.  

And you are wrong on it not being able to be disproved.  If you run
a positive test, and have reserved some of the material that went
into the test, and you test that material for He and it has none,
then you have proved that He was not a contaminant in the original
materials.

This is simple science.  You always hold out some of the materials
you put into the reaction cell for later testing, in case something
unusual happens. It is poor scientific practice to put all of your
material into the cell such that when the cell works, you have none
of the starting materials to test.    rt

Subject: Re: Just TRY IT, Scott!
  Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:39:33 -0700
 Resent-From:  vortex-l eskimo.com
        Date:  Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:40:41 -0700 (PDT)
        From:  Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
    Reply-To:  vortex-l eskimo.com
          To:  vortex-l eskimo.com

The way Russ George and SRI reduced D2 content to much less than
1 ppm was a two-step process. As I recall, the small amount of gas
they bled in for analysis was first exposed to a LN2-cooled
graphite-coated surface-- a commonly used cryosorbtion pumping
technique. Most of the remaining D2 was then removed by a getter. 

You can also get D2 pressure down below 10e-6 mbar (10e-9 bar) by
direct condensation on a surface cooled by liquid He. However,
liquid He and the associated technologh are a bit pricy-- probably
why Russ and SRI didn't use it.

While you are trying to pump D2 out of your system, you should
bake all the components to speed up the outgassing. A lot of the
D2 will be tied up as water, too, and baking definitely helps to
get rid of that.
===
Michael J. Schaffer

Subject: Re: Just TRY IT, Scott!
  Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:14:38 -0700
 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
        Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:16:37 -0500
        From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
    Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
          To: vortex-l eskimo.com
   

At 13:18 6/24/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Oops. Not good. Why do you need the vacuum system? Is it part of the
>mass spec machine? 

Yeah, they all operate at very low pressures... you can't have the ions
colliding with each other as they are being mass analyzed.  Dedicated
mass-spec analyzers have a sample handling system that bleeds the
unknown sample gas into the spectrometer at a controlled rate.

My system is kinda like a home-made mass-spec analyzer.
The spectrometer itself, which is a brand new SRI unit known as a
Residual Gas Analyzer, is permanently mounted near the intake of the
turbo pump in my vacuum system. It was designed to monitor the
"residual gas" in the vacuum system and the pressure must be below
10^-4 torr for it to operate at all.  To "analyze" an unknown
sample, I have to arrange for the sample to bleed into the vacuum
system somehow.  I'm presently just using a super-fine needle valve.
Because I can't control the bleed rate quantitatively, I'm limited
to ratiometric analyses.  For example, I can adjust the valve until
the N2 pressure at the RGA is 1E-6 torr and then look to see if the
He pressure is 5E-12 torr.  That's exactly what I did 3 days ago...
and I observed about 5E-11 torr....10 times too much.

I've got the roughing pump motor rewired properly and the vac system
is running nicely now.  I'll try this He-in-air measurement again
real soon and report back.

BTW, I don't think a real mass spectroscopist would consider an RGA
to be a real analytical tool. It's resolution is 100's or 1000's of
times worse than a typical analytical mass spectrometer.  Its
designated purpose is vacuum diagnosis.  Brand new, it cost ~100
times LESS than a serious analytical mass spectrometer.


  Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:30:37 -0700
  From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
  Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
         
 At 11:20 6/24/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Listen up, Scott: You have a sample of the carbon
>catalyst, right? You have a mass spectrometer, right? Okay, do the
>experiment!

I'm already on it. The reason I left my vac system on all night
two days ago was to try to get rid of the apparent D2 contamination
that has resulted from many hours of having parts of the system full
of D2 at near-atmospheric pressure.  As things stand right now, when
I bleed air into the system and let the RGA look at it, it looks like
~50 ppm He... not 5 ppm like it should be.  

Frankly, I doubt that I can make any definitive statement about
the He content of this catalyst.  I am a novice at mass spectroscopy.
Being an expert at x-ray spectroscopy, I know how small my chances
are of getting the right answer on a trace analysis, especially with
a known intereference that is present in my system and cannot be
resolved with my spectometer.

But that doesn't stop me from taking a look...<g>

Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 17:07:00 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 20:03:06 EDT
Subject: RE: PLEC:  Technique Changes at NERL?
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Ed,

Do you know who Colin Rickert is?  I had never heard of him before.  Does he 
have anything to do with NERL?

Tom Stolper

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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Subject: RE: PLEC:  Technique Changes at NERL?
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 20:48:48 -0400
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tstolper aol.com [mailto:Tstolper@aol.com]
> Sent: Friday, June 25, 1999 8:03 PM
> To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> Subject: RE: PLEC: Technique Changes at NERL?
> 
> 
> Ed,
> 
> Do you know who Colin Rickert is? 

Tom,

I don't have any idea who he is, but Gene may be familiar with him.

Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 25 18:27:35 1999
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Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 20:29:45 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: RE: PLEC: Damn!
In-Reply-To: <000501bebf52$8d1771e0$2a0a16cf computer>
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At 05:34 PM 6/25/99 -0400, Ed Wall wrote:
>Vo,
>
>Does anybody know anybody who makes a really low powered TIG welder?

The Miller MaxStar 90 goes down to 1 amp.  Read about it at:

http://www.millerwelds.com/getprod.pl?page=tig/maxstar_91.html

I think there's some kind of threshold that makes it impractical to go much
below 1 amp...?

BTW, for welding the 1-1.5 mm W rod to .5mm thick W sheet, I'm using about
75 amps...briefly.  W is hard to melt!

I got one of Mizuno's cathodes welding back together nicely this afternoon.
 I'll run it Monday.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 26 00:45:31 1999
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Message-ID: <377484BC.F37DFA7 keelynet.com>
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Hi John et al!

I got it too, so didn't open it and sent the following message to
whoever sent it;
---------------------
Hi!

I don't recognize your email address....it is not a wise thing to send a
Word .DOC file to people who aren't expecting it and know the
contents....there are known viruses that attach to .DOC files and will
infect a system when opened...so I won't open it unless I know what it
is about and who you are...if you'll resave it as a .txt file and send
it, I will check it out, if it looks interesting, I will open the .doc
file...thanks either way...seeya!
-- 
           Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker keelynet.com
         http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
      Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

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Subject: Re: Other methods of detecting helium leaks
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At 5:04 PM 6/25/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>I'd like to point out, briefly, that McKubre and other researchers employ
>various  methods of detecting helium contamination which have not been
>discussed here. That is, they have ways of determining whether the helium
>originated in situ as alpha particles in the cell, or whether it leaked in
>from the atmosphere. The two most common methods are, I believe, to measure
>the ratio of helium to neon (or argon?), and helium-4 to helium-3. McKubre
>has been doing this. He said he will have more to report about his helium-3
>results later.


This is quite a feat.  Natural HE3 abundance is 1.37x10^-6 percent. The He
"generated by CF" is only in trace amounts already.


>
>My point is, there are conventional ways to eliminate the contamination
>hypothesis. We do not need to investigate speculative new ideas about
>osmosis or helium retention in carbon.


The issue of helium contamination in the catalyst is real.  The opposition
is a matter of opinion and not data.   It may have a moderately low
probability, but it is a reasonable objection.  Further it now has a life
of its own.  I have done my job bringing it up.  I am satisfied that either
the issue will be resolved or the helium data will be ignored.

My main concern is lumping the Case cell with all other CF modalities.  I
think this is not good for the field in general, because the Case cell is
way out in left field, or at least it remains to be proven that it is not.


>The carbon hypothesis is
>particularly unproductive because it can never be proved or disproved.


It is apparently far easier to prove or disprove than the existence of CF.


>A
>skeptic can always claim that the other samples just happened to hold
>10,000 times more helium than the ones you looked at, or a million times
>more, or whatever.
>
>To prove something I think you must demonstrate two or more independent,
>unrelated properties, such as heat and helium, or helium isotope ratios, or
>heat and neutrons. I cannot think of any independent property to correlate
>and test the carbon hypothesis. For example, you cannot say: "all samples
>of carbon with Property X will also hold a million times more helium than
>normal samples, so look for X-type carbon and you will see the helium" --
>where X is something like the presence of microtubes or buckyballs.

This is gross distortion.  You must be getting hard up for arguments.  I
have never said look for x-type carbon.  I have futher specifically
excluded closed forms, like buckyballs or closed nano-tubes.  Further, I
have specifially mentioned spaces between graphite sheets as likely
candidates.  This does not mean it is necessary to track down the specific
form of helium trap envolved. If you burn the carbon, or otherwise destroy
the molecular and physical structure, you should see the helium if it is
trapped.


>The
>hypothesis as it now stands is too poorly defined and too speculative to
>resolved one way or the other.


It is only speculative to the extent that no one has examined the specific
carbon catalysts that work.  It is merely stated that some of the catalysts
work and some do not.  Also, sometimes the catalyst works, and then it gets
damaged by overheating etc., and does not work.  All carbon is not the
same.  Carbon is valence 4, so has many complex molecular forms.  It seems
to me the speculation is far more rampant on the side that the effect is
fusion and not experimental artifacts, or some other process.  The process
under investigation is less understood and far more speculative than the
prospect that selected samples of carbon may store helium much larger
quantities than the trace amounts observed.  My arguments are logical and
based on deduction.  If it is contamination, and it is not leakage from the
atmosphere (also still a possibility) or from the vessel walls, or from the
Pd, then the remaining place to look is the carbon based catalyst.  It is
self evidently true.

Another issue has been separating the Pd from the carbon.  I see no problem
with burning the carbon and Pd together, since the carbon should be holding
more than 10 times the helium as the Pd. Besides, contamination is
contamination.  If the He is in the Pd, as it has been proven it can not
be, then that is a useful surprise.

Lastly, I would point out that you seem to be speaking with great certainty
about what is clearly an unknown.  I on the other hand have simply pointed
out that there is an area which needs investigation, and further suggested
a simple and cheap means of improving the experiment - by including a
stirrer to avoid the selective effects of D2 convection instabilities,
which is an effect known to be different for D2 than H2, and by examining
samples of the carbon at the completion of the experiment.  Right or wrong,
I'm happy with what I have done, and my side of the issue, but, like Ed
Storms, I have had enough of dealing with this issue.  No good deed goes
unpunished.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 26 02:57:32 1999
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Subject: More on a Brown's gas generator design
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Earlier I suggested the ideas of using rotating wiper blades or bubble
scrubbing particles in the electrolyte, possibly in combination with
rotating electrolysis plates to improve DC electrolysis.  These concepts
were carried over into the AC world of Brown's gas (BG) generators in the
form of a design incorporating an electrolyte slurry to which the current
is capacitlvely coupled.  The cell is driven capacitively through the cell
sides, or through an insulating covering over the plates, eliminating the
need for any exposed metal cell plates.  The slurry then provides the
additional function of bubble former, transporter, and scrubber.

This approach has the natural benefit of permitting the cell to act as a
capacitive element in a resonant LC tank circuit.  The advantages of this
were discussed in prior posts.  However, the principle advantage of
operating in resonance is that the amount of current (through the BG
generator) and apparent power in the tank circuit in relation to the
stimulating circuit, is maximized when operated in resonance.  In effect,
the impedence of the inductive and capacitive parts of the tank circuit are
eliminated, leaving only the natural resistance of the electrolyte.  This
natural resistance is greatly diminished by virtue of the fact the
electrolyte is a slurry, with only nominal distance between "equivalent
plate" separations.

Of further interest, is the fact that the water itself has a dielectric
constant.  The importance of this has been minimized by the fact that it is
irrelevent to DC cell operation.  However, it is very important to the
operation of a BG generator at high frequency in that, the effect of the
capacitive transmission of energy though the cell is large.  This
tranmission mode, being in effect in parallel to the the resistive mode
while in the electrolyte, provides an alternate channel to any point in the
electrolye for projecting energy through the electrolyte. This fact further
highlights the possible importance of looking at use of some high
dielectric constant particles in the electrolyte slurry.  The higher the
frequency the less the impedence of the water, and the more efficient the
BG cell, to an extent.  Further, if the generator operates in a tank
circuit, the current reducing effect of the capacitive and inductive
elements on impedence disappears.

The limit of efficiency is reached due to the heating effect of the
rotating water molecule dipoles.   This is another reason that insulating
dielectric particles in the slurry may improve efficiency, by reducing
dipole rotation in the electrolyte, while also reducing resistive current
flow and providing a bubble formation site.  My experiments with long
distance high voltage currents through electolytes  showed bubble formation
of the dielectric sides of the vessel, but not in the solution itself.
Providing a vast surface area for bubble formation, along with an efficient
means of scrubbing those bubbles from the solution, is the basis of this
design.  The use of high dielectric constant insulator particles in the
slurry, with or without the metal or semiconductor particles, has a sound
basis for improving the electrolysis efficiency.  Also of interest is the
possible choice of carbon powder as a semiconductor for the slurry.  It is
lightweight, cheap, and readily available at pet and aquarium stores.

To avoid the need to search for some of the prior material, it is included
below.

Prior post - A Brown's gas generator design, 6/17/99
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The main purpose of this Brown's gas (BG) generator design is to
efficiently convert either mechanical action or high voltage high frequency
AC current into Brown's gas, a stoichiometric mixture of hydrogen and
oxygen obtained from the hydrolysis of water.  This design is original, to
my knowledge, and also untested.

The primary strategy of this design is to use an electrolyte slurry which
contains a large amount of fine metal particles, say stainless steel,
maintained in suspension by agitation, by pumping the electrolyte through
the electrolysis system.  These particles act like plates in a multi-stage
BG generator, generating H2 on one side and O2 on the other.

The gas can be removed by running the particles through a degassifier which
can work in a variety of ways.  The degassifier and pump make a natural
combination.  The turbulence and centrifugal force of a vortex in a
centrifugal pump can be used to scrub the particles of gas bubbles.
Barriers or vanes can be installed in the vortex to increase turbulence.
The gas is taken out of the pump at the center of rotation.  Fluid is
introduced to the pump at a mid radius, and the blades and fluid takeoff
are to the periphery of the pump.  The pump exit is diminished in size over
normal pumps in order to increase the number of fluid rotations within the
pump.  The pump also serves as a backfire preventer, so might be mounted in
close proximity to a torch, motor or fuel cell.

A very high cell voltage is required, thus lowering the current for a given
design power.  However, the same current goes through lots of particles,
equivalent to a multi plate cell with many plates, so the energy per mole
of hydrogen should work out equivalently to a low voltage electrolyser with
very small plate separation.  The slurry should be comprised of a large
percentage of bubble forming particles.  This generator should be
exceedingly compact for the gas generated, due to the incredible equivalent
number of plates and the very minimal equivalent plate separation.  The
electrolyte resistance per equivalent plate is thus greatly reduced,
converting less of the current into waste heat and thus applying more
directly to gas generation.

Note that, by using a high frequency, the cell is driven capacitively
through the cell sides, or through an insulating covering over the plates,
eliminating the need for any exposed metal cell plates, and thus
eliminating cell plate corrosion.  Doing this also eliminates excessive arc
formation should a string of particles form a long short.  It also avoids
the formation of long plasma paths, and thus also reduces plasma erosion,
and cavitation erosion, of the plate insulators, while avoiding
unproductive current surges.

The proposed design works by pumping the electrolyte slurry between two
insulated plates.  A high voltage AC gradient is imposed through the
slurry.  This can be done by using static metal plates on the outside of
the cell, or insulated plates within the cell, with high voltage AC
applied.  Note that one of the plates can be at ground potential.  A third
insulated plate or blade in the electrolyte might be used as a
stirrer/wiper to maintain slurry dispersion and eliminate bubble sticking.

A novel approach to applying the AC gradient across the cell is to make one
of the plates an armature, a series of (flat) spokes mounted on an axle,
oriented so as to rotate in very close proximity to one of the flat (outer)
sides of the cell, which is made of insulating material.  The slurry in
this case is contained in a thin container which is circularly shaped, so
as to maintain the slurry flow along the perimeter of the circle of
rotation of the armature, and between the plates.  The plate opposing the
armature, on the other flat side of the cell, can simply be a round and
grounded metal plate the same diameter as the armature.  The armature
surface can be insulated, thus reducing the required thickness of the
insulating cell wall, while simultaneously eliminating corona loss from the
armature blades.  The armature is charged with high voltage DC, thus should
require no current and thus very little energy to maintain it electrically.
The electrolysis energy comes strictly from the armature motion.

Maintenance and construction is simplified and made less costly, by
eliminating the need to cut stainless plates, and the need to take the cell
apart to replace plates, and by reducing plate corrosion.  Using filters
and sieves, it should be possible to maintain the particle quality, even
while in operation.  One frequent maintenance problem might be erosion of
the the pump blades, but this might be reduced by choice of blade material.

This device might be used for investigating various materials for use as
bubble forming particles in the slurry, including semiconductor material,
and even insulating materials, and mixtures of the above.  Also of interest
for investigation are slurry particle concentrations, operating voltages,
operating frequency, and waveforms.

Is this all just wishful thinking, something worthwhile to tinker with, or
a good approach?


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
At 3:18 PM 6/18/99, Michael T Huffman wrote:
>Hi Horace,
>
>Sorry about not getting back to you sooner, but somebody nuked my machine
>again, AND changed the password on my server.  I just now got back online:(
>
>I'd like to try this idea.  It's completely over my head as to the
>capacitative motor idea.  Wouldn't this be considered an inductive coupling,
>rather than a capacitance.  Like I said it's over my head.

It's capacitive for sure.  There are two capacitors (e, g, the insulating
sides) in series with the electrolyte. The moving plate coming and going,
making its charge come and go, is the same as a current coming and going
charging a static plate.  The electrolyte carries the current between the
innermost surfaces of the two insulators.  It takes a high RPM and a very
high voltage to get much current through the electrolyte.  I like the idea
mainly because it strikes me as a novel way to convert mechanical energy to
chemical energy.  It may not have much utility.  It is not an essential
part of the design.  In fact, I would probably that version one unless I
was going to try to close the loop.  I would probably build a capacitive
generator separately for experimental purposes initially.  I like the idea
of using a simple spark gap oscillator for a quick and dirty approach.

I think the interesting thing would be experimenting with the metal slurrys.


>
>I'm ordering the Wiseman books today for a normal generator, and should have
>them in maybe 12 days.  Your post previous to this one inspired a several
>other approaches in my mind, and then that inspired another several CF cell
>design ideas, but to build them I would need a welder, and then I
>rememebered.  I need a WELDER! :-)  Do you mind if I pass some of these
>ideas along to the Wiseman group?

I would like that very much.  Thanks.  Maybe someone has already tried slurries.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 26 05:03:49 1999
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Ed's calculations are as follows:

Isotope    Abundance    Half-life(t)    # He   # He atoms/U atom /year
U235        0.718%      7.04x10^8 y      7          6.9x10-9
U238        99.276%    4.47x10^9 y      8          1.2x10-9

The amount of helium is 3.2 x 10^12 He atoms/ gm natural U/year with most coming
from the U238.  If the catalyst is 10 years old and 5 x 10^16 atoms of He are
required, the catalyst in the Case cell must contain 1563 gm of uranium.  This
is the minimum about which results only if sufficient time has elapsed for all
the daughters to decay. I think Scott and I would have seen this.

>I have no idea what you are talking about.  The numbers used in the calculation
>are accepted values as listed by several sources .  If you have better values,
>please tell me what they are. The formula used for calculating decay rate
is also
>accepted and its basis can be found in Friedlander and Kennedy.  The one
>assumption (that the daughters are in equilibrium) gives the minimum amount of
>uranium necessary.  Please tell me how you did the calculation.
>
>Ed Storms

Ed you're asking us to explain to you how a little bit of D2 gas (~30cc),
which weighs _next to nothing_, is putting out He in large quantities with
no power input for over a month, and why it will only do it with only
certain batches of catalyst.  Furthermore, you are saying that the amount of
He that is being released is equal to the amount released by a whopping
*1,563gm* of Uranium.  Fred S., Horace, Murray, Shannahan, Eachus, and
myself, have taken the time to consider your situation, and have offered our
explanations for what might possibly be going on in that cell, and I've seen
some merit in all of them except for the one specific low temp. clathrate
idea mentioned by Murray, but you have dismissed _all_ them as being
ridiculous.  Please tell us what is your idea, and why would it be any less
ridiculous?  At least mine involves a fusion reaction involving multiple D2
reactions, and the rest of them don't sound too bad, either.

As for the calcs, I didn't even bother.  I've looked at the U decay chain,
and the decay chains of all the daughters, and there are a lot of them.
Enough to make me think that you are grossly in error as to this 1500gm
figure.  I've also run experiments, and talked to other experimenters who
have experienced similar results.  As for the Wittaker formulae, I will have
to run that down for you.  The guy that has the book is busy making loads of
money, and difficult to get a hold of, but I will try.  Give me a few weeks,
though, as I'm going off on another adventure here, shortly.

Horace asked exactly what I did, and so I'll give a brief recipe for an
energetic nuclear reaction that you can try in a number of different types
of experimental designs.  It's cheap and easy to do, and won't require any
modification to most of these designs, other than to put up the necessary
shields, measuring devices, and ventilation.

I had in my apartment in Seattle approximately 15 sq. feet of ceramic tiles
in my kitchen that were colored with Yellowcake.  You can get the same
results with Fiestaware.  It's a bit costy these days, because it's a
collectable, but you can still find it, or borrow it temporarily from
someone who has it.  It doesn't involve destroying it or anything.  I cut up
some denim into 4"x4" pieces, and rinsed them thoroughly to remove any soap
residues, and I wiped the tiles vigorously with the denim pieces.  I did
this to 4 pieces of denim, and placed them into the bottom of a 2 and 1/2
gallon cooking pot.  Then I filled the pot with distilled water, covered it
loosely, and let it sit overnight.  The denim pieces, by the way, showed no
coloration or gave any visual indication that there was anything on them.
In other words, I didn't measure the amount that was on them, but it was
just a trace amount.  Not even enough to see.  I placed the cooking pot in
the sink, and ran the input hose from my cavitator into the pot, and began
to run the cavitator.  The exit hose ran back into the pot.

I had been running my machine this way for other experiments that involved
the formation of charged microbubbles, and H2O2, and so I was not doing any
calorimetry at that time.  I did have a thermometer in the water pot, and so
I knew approximately how long it normally took for the pot to reach a given
temperature.  I ran the experiments just until the water in the pot would
reach ~100F, and the starting temps were around ~60F.  I also didn't think
to put my geiger counter on it, because the entire kitchen was a "hot zone",
and measurements were impossible.  I always had all the windows open, and a
fan running, but no real ventilation hood.  This was OK normally, especially
with distilled water runs.  When I did tap water runs, the Chlorine got to
be annoying, but I did them anyway.

In the run that I did with the denim, however, not having the proper safety
gear was a big mistake.  Within five minutes of starting the experiment, I
began feeling ill, and I ran it a few minutes longer, until I became
violently ill, and I shut it down.  Basically, I felt like I had been hit by
a truck.  I was struck with extreme nausea, dizziness, diarrhea, I coughed
up blood, had nosebleeds, every bone ached, and my joints were like they
were on fire.  I'm no hot house flower, my health has always been excellent,
and I've worked around all kinds of nasty stuff, but this was the worst
thing I'd ever experienced.  It was a couple of weeks before I felt even
remotely human again.  That was well over a year ago, I think, and I feel
fine, so there wasn't any major debilitation or anything, but it still was a
really dumb thing to do when I look back at it.  I'm embarrassed even to
tell people about it, it was that stupid, but at the same time, I feel like
I probably should.

A couple of things that I remember about that particular experiment that was
different, was that the temp of the water raised a lot quicker, and the size
of the bubbles were a LOT bigger.  I always checked the rotor after each
run, as well.  The rotor always performed well, and never lost its vacuum
ability until this run.  There were no visible holes in the rotor, but there
was not one single tube out of ~500, that could pull a vac after that run.
It was shot clear through.

Anyone could do a variation of this, but I would, of course, advise starting
out with very small amounts until you see measurable results, and having
either a good ventilation hood, or doing it in a box that has a vent hose to
the outside.  You could do this with any electrolysis cell like the one that
Scott has, or you could do it with the Fusor, a laser set-up, a Hydrosonic
Pump, or with a sonic cavitator.  I don't think it would matter.  You could
easily do this method of doping with light water, electrolytes, heavy water,
or gases such as H2 or D2.  You could even transfer the daughter products
onto the inside surface of a cell or an electrode by rubbing it on.
Depending on which design you tried this with, you should expect to see some
gammas, elevated temps and pressures - beyond what you normally would
expect.  A blast shield or sandbag wall might be in order for enclosed cells.

The reason that I liked the U hypothesis in the Case cell was that the
amount would only need to be very small for a fusion reaction to occur in
D2.  The EM from the decay would be captured and dispersed throughout the
carbon lattice, and provide the necessary power to cause or accelerate the
D2 fusion reaction.  It would be a lot lower powered, and safer.  A very
small amount could also possibly accelerate the Carbon Cycle reaction
mechanism that Fred S. had suggested.  Who knows, it's just an idea, and the
price is right, eh?

Have fun, play safe 8^)

Knuke



Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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----- Original Message -----
From: Michael T Huffman <knuke LCIA.COM>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 1999 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: Case & Arata

Knuke wrote:

[Snip]
>
>
>I cut up
> some denim into 4"x4" pieces, and rinsed them thoroughly to remove any
soap
> residues, and I wiped the tiles vigorously with the denim pieces.  I did
> this to 4 pieces of denim, and placed them into the bottom of a 2 and 1/2
> gallon cooking pot.  Then I filled the pot with distilled water, covered
it
> loosely, and let it sit overnight.  The denim pieces, by the way, showed
no
> coloration or gave any visual indication that there was anything on them.
> In other words, I didn't measure the amount that was on them, but it was
> just a trace amount.  Not even enough to see.  I placed the cooking pot in
> the sink, and ran the input hose from my cavitator into the pot, and began
> to run the cavitator.  The exit hose ran back into the pot.

Interesting, Knuke, but there must have been wax  CH3-(CH2)x-CO-ONa on the
floor tile,
which could react with the  x(OH)  Hydroxyl Free Radicals generated in your
Cavitator.

Vapor Hydrogen Peroxide HO-OH is one of the most potent sterilants in use
and the allowed TLV concentration is 1 ppm, because it can start free
radical (OH) chain reactions in your lungs. Yet Hydrogen Peroxide is safely
used in 3% water solution.   Check out ABTOX and STERIS, two major
producers-users of Vapor Hydrogen Peroxide,  Johnson & Johnson uses it in
large quantities to sterilize medical supplies a truckload at a time. This
is Damn Potent stuff.

You might want to contact these Companies as potential users of your
Cavitator as
 a Vapor Hydrogen Peroxide (Free Radical, H and OH) Generator.

>
> I had been running my machine this way for other experiments that involved
> the formation of charged microbubbles, and H2O2, and so I was not doing
any
> calorimetry at that time.  I did have a thermometer in the water pot, and
so
> I knew approximately how long it normally took for the pot to reach a
given
> temperature.  I ran the experiments just until the water in the pot would
> reach ~100F, and the starting temps were around ~60F.  I also didn't think
> to put my geiger counter on it, because the entire kitchen was a "hot
zone",
> and measurements were impossible.  I always had all the windows open, and
a
> fan running, but no real ventilation hood.  This was OK normally,
especially
> with distilled water runs.  When I did tap water runs, the Chlorine got to
> be annoying, but I did them anyway.
>
> In the run that I did with the denim, however, not having the proper
safety
> gear was a big mistake.  Within five minutes of starting the experiment, I
> began feeling ill, and I ran it a few minutes longer, until I became
> violently ill, and I shut it down.  Basically, I felt like I had been hit
by
> a truck.  I was struck with extreme nausea, dizziness, diarrhea, I coughed
> up blood, had nosebleeds, every bone ached, and my joints were like they
> were on fire.

With a free radical chain reaction going like gangbusters, I'm not
surprised.  Your are lucky that you're still vertical.

Regards,     Frederick

>
> Knuke


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Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Ed's calculations are as follows:
>
> Isotope    Abundance    Half-life(t)    # He   # He atoms/U atom /year
> U235        0.718%      7.04x10^8 y      7          6.9x10-9
> U238        99.276%    4.47x10^9 y      8          1.2x10-9
>
> The amount of helium is 3.2 x 10^12 He atoms/ gm natural U/year with most coming
> from the U238.  If the catalyst is 10 years old and 5 x 10^16 atoms of He are
> required, the catalyst in the Case cell must contain 1563 gm of uranium.  This
> is the minimum about which results only if sufficient time has elapsed for all
> the daughters to decay. I think Scott and I would have seen this.
>
>
> Ed you're asking us to explain to you how a little bit of D2 gas (~30cc),
> which weighs _next to nothing_, is putting out He in large quantities with
> no power input for over a month, and why it will only do it with only
> certain batches of catalyst.  Furthermore, you are saying that the amount of
> He that is being released is equal to the amount released by a whopping
> *1,563gm* of Uranium.

No, the issue is more focused than you indicate.  Someone suggested that the
measured He in the Case experiment might have resulted from the decay of contained
uranium.  I merely calculated, using accepted values and formula, the amount of U
which would have to be present to account for this observed He.  This effort does
not impact in any way on the other possible sources of He or explanations.  My
complaint was that this calculation is so simple, I would have expected it to have
been done before the suggestion was made rather than requiring me to do it.  If you
think I made a mistake, please show me my error. (Please note that Scott checked
the calculations and reached the same basic conclusion)  A feeling about the decay
chain does not count.  This calculation is based on well established science which
should not require a debate.

> Fred S., Horace, Murray, Shannahan, Eachus, and
> myself, have taken the time to consider your situation, and have offered our
> explanations for what might possibly be going on in that cell, and I've seen
> some merit in all of them except for the one specific low temp. clathrate
> idea mentioned by Murray, but you have dismissed _all_ them as being
> ridiculous.  Please tell us what is your idea, and why would it be any less
> ridiculous?  At least mine involves a fusion reaction involving multiple D2
> reactions, and the rest of them don't sound too bad, either.

As I understand the situation, of the prosaic suggestions we have discussed in the
past, the one remaining is the possibility that He is retained by the carbon in the
catalyst and this He is released upon exposure to deuterium.  All other
possibilities have been effectively rejected as being too unlikely.

This idea is based on the fact that activated carbon can absorb a monolayer of He
at 1 atm of He pressure.  In addition, several assumptions are made.  The first
assumption is that He at 6x10^-6 atm  in air can also absorb at this level on
unactivated carbon, and, second, is that He can reach higher concentrations in
proposed nanopores because of its small size.

I have pointed out in a previous posting why these assumptions are very unlikely to
be correct.  The fact of He absorption at 1 atm is not in dispute but is
irrelevant.  I also suggested that the idea will be tested in due course provided
on going studies fail to show a consistent relationship between heat and He
production or if other techniques, such as using a blank, show unexpected effects.
Any additional speculation on this subject, I suggest, is a waste of time.

>
> As for the calcs, I didn't even bother.  I've looked at the U decay chain,
> and the decay chains of all the daughters, and there are a lot of them.
> Enough to make me think that you are grossly in error as to this 1500gm
> figure.  I've also run experiments, and talked to other experimenters who
> have experienced similar results.  As for the Wittaker formulae, I will have
> to run that down for you.  The guy that has the book is busy making loads of
> money, and difficult to get a hold of, but I will try.  Give me a few weeks,
> though, as I'm going off on another adventure here, shortly.

I look forward to your comments.

>
> Horace asked exactly what I did, and so I'll give a brief recipe for an
> energetic nuclear reaction that you can try in a number of different types
> of experimental designs.  It's cheap and easy to do, and won't require any
> modification to most of these designs, other than to put up the necessary
> shields, measuring devices, and ventilation.

I'm surprised that you take the trouble to describe an undefined kitchen experiment
which is proposed to show a nuclear effect while finding all kinds of objections to
a well controlled laboratory study which also is proposed to show a nuclear
effect.  I can at least understand what Russ and Mike did, but I have no idea how
to interpret your experiment.

>
> I had in my apartment in Seattle approximately 15 sq. feet of ceramic tiles
> in my kitchen that were colored with Yellowcake.  You can get the same
> results with Fiestaware.  It's a bit costy these days, because it's a
> collectable, but you can still find it, or borrow it temporarily from
> someone who has it.  It doesn't involve destroying it or anything.  I cut up
> some denim into 4"x4" pieces, and rinsed them thoroughly to remove any soap
> residues, and I wiped the tiles vigorously with the denim pieces.  I did
> this to 4 pieces of denim, and placed them into the bottom of a 2 and 1/2
> gallon cooking pot.  Then I filled the pot with distilled water, covered it
> loosely, and let it sit overnight.  The denim pieces, by the way, showed no
> coloration or gave any visual indication that there was anything on them.
> In other words, I didn't measure the amount that was on them, but it was
> just a trace amount.  Not even enough to see.  I placed the cooking pot in
> the sink, and ran the input hose from my cavitator into the pot, and began
> to run the cavitator.  The exit hose ran back into the pot.
>
> I had been running my machine this way for other experiments that involved
> the formation of charged microbubbles, and H2O2, and so I was not doing any
> calorimetry at that time.  I did have a thermometer in the water pot, and so
> I knew approximately how long it normally took for the pot to reach a given
> temperature.  I ran the experiments just until the water in the pot would
> reach ~100F, and the starting temps were around ~60F.  I also didn't think
> to put my geiger counter on it, because the entire kitchen was a "hot zone",
> and measurements were impossible.  I always had all the windows open, and a
> fan running, but no real ventilation hood.  This was OK normally, especially
> with distilled water runs.  When I did tap water runs, the Chlorine got to
> be annoying, but I did them anyway.
>
> In the run that I did with the denim, however, not having the proper safety
> gear was a big mistake.  Within five minutes of starting the experiment, I
> began feeling ill, and I ran it a few minutes longer, until I became
> violently ill, and I shut it down.  Basically, I felt like I had been hit by
> a truck.  I was struck with extreme nausea, dizziness, diarrhea, I coughed
> up blood, had nosebleeds, every bone ached, and my joints were like they
> were on fire.  I'm no hot house flower, my health has always been excellent,
> and I've worked around all kinds of nasty stuff, but this was the worst
> thing I'd ever experienced.  It was a couple of weeks before I felt even
> remotely human again.  That was well over a year ago, I think, and I feel
> fine, so there wasn't any major debilitation or anything, but it still was a
> really dumb thing to do when I look back at it.  I'm embarrassed even to
> tell people about it, it was that stupid, but at the same time, I feel like
> I probably should.
>
> A couple of things that I remember about that particular experiment that was
> different, was that the temp of the water raised a lot quicker, and the size
> of the bubbles were a LOT bigger.  I always checked the rotor after each
> run, as well.  The rotor always performed well, and never lost its vacuum
> ability until this run.  There were no visible holes in the rotor, but there
> was not one single tube out of ~500, that could pull a vac after that run.
> It was shot clear through.
>
> Anyone could do a variation of this, but I would, of course, advise starting
> out with very small amounts until you see measurable results, and having
> either a good ventilation hood, or doing it in a box that has a vent hose to
> the outside.  You could do this with any electrolysis cell like the one that
> Scott has, or you could do it with the Fusor, a laser set-up, a Hydrosonic
> Pump, or with a sonic cavitator.  I don't think it would matter.  You could
> easily do this method of doping with light water, electrolytes, heavy water,
> or gases such as H2 or D2.  You could even transfer the daughter products
> onto the inside surface of a cell or an electrode by rubbing it on.
> Depending on which design you tried this with, you should expect to see some
> gammas, elevated temps and pressures - beyond what you normally would
> expect.  A blast shield or sandbag wall might be in order for enclosed cells.
>
> The reason that I liked the U hypothesis in the Case cell was that the
> amount would only need to be very small for a fusion reaction to occur in
> D2.  The EM from the decay would be captured and dispersed throughout the
> carbon lattice, and provide the necessary power to cause or accelerate the
> D2 fusion reaction.  It would be a lot lower powered, and safer.  A very
> small amount could also possibly accelerate the Carbon Cycle reaction
> mechanism that Fred S. had suggested.  Who knows, it's just an idea, and the
> price is right, eh?
>

If the presence of uranium in a material can accelerate nuclear reactions, don't
you think this would have been seen by people who have studied uranium and similar
materials in all kinds of environments for many years using many types of sensitive
equipment?  Such an effect would have been too easy to detect to be missed.  The
results would not have been rejected, as were the Pons-Fleischmann claims,  because
the results would have come from a recognized laboratory and would not have
violated the theories and customs of physics.

The trouble with introducing a new phenomenon, as CANR has done, is that everyone
and their brother can suggest all kinds of variations to achieve the proposed
effects.  Some of these variations will work, not because the reasons are
understood, but because chance will create the necessary conditions.  However, most
of the suggestions will be useless to produce the effect, but especially to
understand the required conditions.  If any process is to be made, we need well
designed, systematic studies; not, if you will forgive me, the type you describe.
We also need general support which recognizes the value of the anomalous claims so
that further funding for the work can be obtained.  While  prosaic suggestions have
value in any study, in this case they diminish the value of the anomalous
observations and deflect interest away from the field.  If you want to be useful,
find money and pursued other scientists to support the work.  Then someone will
have the ability to test some of your suggestions.

Ed Storms



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 26 09:30:11 1999
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From: Cornwall RO <R.O.Cornwall city.ac.uk>
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Jed,
95 is more a legacy system. I swear I saw early versions latch up when the
a: drive was accessed. NT broke with that stuff in 93. Alright, windows is
'commercial' and the customer is always right but UNIX has a fair bit of
legacy in it. I think the problem with windows is probably it's too
feature laden being all things to all people esp. with trivia like screen
savers and all kinds of screwy customisations. 

> Oh, also because Bill Gates is a weenie.
> > - Jed > > 

I'm not too sure of this Amercanism. 'Wee' sounds like pee, so to me a
weenie is a low ranking male with a small member. About right?
Anyway I think Bill is alright. If you don't have something nice to say 
about someone...

Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 26 09:49:02 1999
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:57:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>,
    John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Ultraviolet breakdown of water
Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:53:20 -0700
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com


	Dear Vo.,

	Looking for straightforward units and numbers for UV breakdown
of water.  Does anyone have some enginnering firgures on the order of;

	a]  "xxx"  wavelength UV
	b]   at "xxx" magnitude
	c]   yields "xx" grams O and "xx" grams H 
	d]   in "xx" time 

	As applied to liquid water in "xxx" manner.

			
	Or some similar expression of UV breakdown of water.

			???

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 26 11:47:57 1999
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Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 10:48:38 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Analysis of PLEC & other Japanese data
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Mitchell Swartz has pre-published a really amazing paper!  It is one case
where data stew is an epicurean delight, and an ingenious way to blend
numbers not obtained for analysis in this manner.   It may help show the
way to improving cell operation and improving replication success rates,
but also breaks new ground in showing commonality between the wide variety
of experiments addressed, which I feel has been much lacking before.  If
not a fluke of some kind, it is a
a significant discovery, though the additional data summarized, while
breaking new ground in tying together the field, really only provides a
greater level of support for Mitchell's Pi-notch optimal operating point
theory, because it was published previously.  It certainly higlights the
importance of logging complete data with respect to every experiment, and
the value of use of Mitchell's method of analysis during the experiment.

I suggest anyone interested in CF may want to get on the reading list by
contacing Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>.  The paper is withdrawn in
preparation of the second edition.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 26 12:04:43 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: More on a Brown's gas generator design
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Hi knuke!

This is a private correspondence.  Just following up with you about the
Wiseman group. Did you send the orginal BG design info (below) to them?  If
so, did you get any response?

Do they have a news list like vortex?

Summary of posts:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
More on a Brown's gas generator design - 6/26/99

Earlier I suggested the ideas of using rotating wiper blades or bubble
scrubbing particles in the electrolyte, possibly in combination with
rotating electrolysis plates to improve DC electrolysis.  These concepts
were carried over into the AC world of Brown's gas (BG) generators in the
form of a design incorporating an electrolyte slurry to which the current
is capacitlvely coupled.  The cell is driven capacitively through the cell
sides, or through an insulating covering over the plates, eliminating the
need for any exposed metal cell plates.  The slurry then provides the
additional function of bubble former, transporter, and scrubber.

This approach has the natural benefit of permitting the cell to act as a
capacitive element in a resonant LC tank circuit.  The advantages of this
were discussed in prior posts.  However, the principle advantage of
operating in resonance is that the amount of current (through the BG
generator) and apparent power in the tank circuit in relation to the
stimulating circuit, is maximized when operated in resonance.  In effect,
the impedence of the inductive and capacitive parts of the tank circuit are
eliminated, leaving only the natural resistance of the electrolyte.  This
natural resistance is greatly diminished by virtue of the fact the
electrolyte is a slurry, with only nominal distance between "equivalent
plate" separations.

Of further interest, is the fact that the water itself has a dielectric
constant.  The importance of this has been minimized by the fact that it is
irrelevent to DC cell operation.  However, it is very important to the
operation of a BG generator at high frequency in that, the effect of the
capacitive transmission of energy though the cell is large.  This
tranmission mode, being in effect in parallel to the the resistive mode
while in the electrolyte, provides an alternate channel to any point in the
electrolye for projecting energy through the electrolyte. This fact further
highlights the possible importance of looking at use of some high
dielectric constant particles in the electrolyte slurry.  The higher the
frequency the less the impedence of the water, and the more efficient the
BG cell, to an extent.  Further, if the generator operates in a tank
circuit, the current reducing effect of the capacitive and inductive
elements on impedence disappears.

The limit of efficiency is reached due to the heating effect of the
rotating water molecule dipoles.   This is another reason that insulating
dielectric particles in the slurry may improve efficiency, by reducing
dipole rotation in the electrolyte, while also reducing resistive current
flow and providing a bubble formation site.  My experiments with long
distance high voltage currents through electolytes  showed bubble formation
of the dielectric sides of the vessel, but not in the solution itself.
Providing a vast surface area for bubble formation, along with an efficient
means of scrubbing those bubbles from the solution, is the basis of this
design.  The use of high dielectric constant insulator particles in the
slurry, with or without the metal or semiconductor particles, has a sound
basis for improving the electrolysis efficiency.  Also of interest is the
possible choice of carbon powder as a semiconductor for the slurry.  It is
lightweight, cheap, and readily available at pet and aquarium stores.

To avoid the need to search for some of the prior material, it is included
below.

Prior post - A Brown's gas generator design, 6/17/99
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The main purpose of this Brown's gas (BG) generator design is to
efficiently convert either mechanical action or high voltage high frequency
AC current into Brown's gas, a stoichiometric mixture of hydrogen and
oxygen obtained from the hydrolysis of water.  This design is original, to
my knowledge, and also untested.

The primary strategy of this design is to use an electrolyte slurry which
contains a large amount of fine metal particles, say stainless steel,
maintained in suspension by agitation, by pumping the electrolyte through
the electrolysis system.  These particles act like plates in a multi-stage
BG generator, generating H2 on one side and O2 on the other.

The gas can be removed by running the particles through a degassifier which
can work in a variety of ways.  The degassifier and pump make a natural
combination.  The turbulence and centrifugal force of a vortex in a
centrifugal pump can be used to scrub the particles of gas bubbles.
Barriers or vanes can be installed in the vortex to increase turbulence.
The gas is taken out of the pump at the center of rotation.  Fluid is
introduced to the pump at a mid radius, and the blades and fluid takeoff
are to the periphery of the pump.  The pump exit is diminished in size over
normal pumps in order to increase the number of fluid rotations within the
pump.  The pump also serves as a backfire preventer, so might be mounted in
close proximity to a torch, motor or fuel cell.

A very high cell voltage is required, thus lowering the current for a given
design power.  However, the same current goes through lots of particles,
equivalent to a multi plate cell with many plates, so the energy per mole
of hydrogen should work out equivalently to a low voltage electrolyser with
very small plate separation.  The slurry should be comprised of a large
percentage of bubble forming particles.  This generator should be
exceedingly compact for the gas generated, due to the incredible equivalent
number of plates and the very minimal equivalent plate separation.  The
electrolyte resistance per equivalent plate is thus greatly reduced,
converting less of the current into waste heat and thus applying more
directly to gas generation.

Note that, by using a high frequency, the cell is driven capacitively
through the cell sides, or through an insulating covering over the plates,
eliminating the need for any exposed metal cell plates, and thus
eliminating cell plate corrosion.  Doing this also eliminates excessive arc
formation should a string of particles form a long short.  It also avoids
the formation of long plasma paths, and thus also reduces plasma erosion,
and cavitation erosion, of the plate insulators, while avoiding
unproductive current surges.

The proposed design works by pumping the electrolyte slurry between two
insulated plates.  A high voltage AC gradient is imposed through the
slurry.  This can be done by using static metal plates on the outside of
the cell, or insulated plates within the cell, with high voltage AC
applied.  Note that one of the plates can be at ground potential.  A third
insulated plate or blade in the electrolyte might be used as a
stirrer/wiper to maintain slurry dispersion and eliminate bubble sticking.

A novel approach to applying the AC gradient across the cell is to make one
of the plates an armature, a series of (flat) spokes mounted on an axle,
oriented so as to rotate in very close proximity to one of the flat (outer)
sides of the cell, which is made of insulating material.  The slurry in
this case is contained in a thin container which is circularly shaped, so
as to maintain the slurry flow along the perimeter of the circle of
rotation of the armature, and between the plates.  The plate opposing the
armature, on the other flat side of the cell, can simply be a round and
grounded metal plate the same diameter as the armature.  The armature
surface can be insulated, thus reducing the required thickness of the
insulating cell wall, while simultaneously eliminating corona loss from the
armature blades.  The armature is charged with high voltage DC, thus should
require no current and thus very little energy to maintain it electrically.
The electrolysis energy comes strictly from the armature motion.

Maintenance and construction is simplified and made less costly, by
eliminating the need to cut stainless plates, and the need to take the cell
apart to replace plates, and by reducing plate corrosion.  Using filters
and sieves, it should be possible to maintain the particle quality, even
while in operation.  One frequent maintenance problem might be erosion of
the the pump blades, but this might be reduced by choice of blade material.

This device might be used for investigating various materials for use as
bubble forming particles in the slurry, including semiconductor material,
and even insulating materials, and mixtures of the above.  Also of interest
for investigation are slurry particle concentrations, operating voltages,
operating frequency, and waveforms.

Is this all just wishful thinking, something worthwhile to tinker with, or
a good approach?


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
At 3:18 PM 6/18/99, Michael T Huffman wrote:
>Hi Horace,
>
>Sorry about not getting back to you sooner, but somebody nuked my machine
>again, AND changed the password on my server.  I just now got back online:(
>
>I'd like to try this idea.  It's completely over my head as to the
>capacitative motor idea.  Wouldn't this be considered an inductive coupling,
>rather than a capacitance.  Like I said it's over my head.

It's capacitive for sure.  There are two capacitors (e, g, the insulating
sides) in series with the electrolyte. The moving plate coming and going,
making its charge come and go, is the same as a current coming and going
charging a static plate.  The electrolyte carries the current between the
innermost surfaces of the two insulators.  It takes a high RPM and a very
high voltage to get much current through the electrolyte.  I like the idea
mainly because it strikes me as a novel way to convert mechanical energy to
chemical energy.  It may not have much utility.  It is not an essential
part of the design.  In fact, I would probably that version one unless I
was going to try to close the loop.  I would probably build a capacitive
generator separately for experimental purposes initially.  I like the idea
of using a simple spark gap oscillator for a quick and dirty approach.

I think the interesting thing would be experimenting with the metal slurrys.


>
>I'm ordering the Wiseman books today for a normal generator, and should have
>them in maybe 12 days.  Your post previous to this one inspired a several
>other approaches in my mind, and then that inspired another several CF cell
>design ideas, but to build them I would need a welder, and then I
>rememebered.  I need a WELDER! :-)  Do you mind if I pass some of these
>ideas along to the Wiseman group?

I would like that very much.  Thanks.  Maybe someone has already tried slurries.

Regards,

Horace Heffner

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 26 12:16:05 1999
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From: e lewis <elewis1 hotmail.com>
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Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:13:11 PDT
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Dear Vorta,

I wanted to talk about new articles on my site for people to look at.

I think I discovered an effect of radioactivity stimulating radioactivity 
from a cell two years ago.  I tried to publish articles about this, but they 
haven't gotten published, but it is a little similar to what Conte recently 
reported.  A radioactive object near an electrolysis cell seemed to promote 
radioactivity from the cell a significantly.

Have other people noticed this effect?  ed



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 26 12:28:40 1999
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Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 11:31:31 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Ultraviolet breakdown of water (fwd)
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At 12:52 PM 6/26/99, John Schnurer wrote:
[snip]
>        Looking for straightforward units and numbers for UV breakdown
>of water.  Does anyone have some enginnering firgures on the order of;
>
>        a]  "xxx"  wavelength UV


CRC handbook figures:

Wavelength            Max
   (nm)            absorbance

   190               0.010
   200               0.010
   250               0.005
   300               0.005
   400               0.005


This is a weak absorbance.  It means only 1 percent absorbance per
centimeter of water traversed at 190 and 200 nm wavelengths.  It implies
use of an absorbtion depth of about a meter, or half a meter with a mirror.

In addition, the molecular vibrational wavenumbers (in cm^-1) are given as
3756, 3657, and 1595.


>        b]   at "xxx" magnitude
>        c]   yields "xx" grams O and "xx" grams H
>        d]   in "xx" time
>
>        As applied to liquid water in "xxx" manner.
>
>
>        Or some similar expression of UV breakdown of water.
>
>                        ???


I think the keyword you need is photolysis.  However, on the net there is a
bunch of stuff on use of photolysis for hair removal.  There has been a lot
of research done on this, especially the use of sunlight.  If I recall
correctly  light from an aluminum arc is especially good for photolysis.  I
think it takes catalysts to make effective use of light for breaking apart
the water molecule.  Sorry, that's all I have handy.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 26 12:53:37 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 15:56:51 -0400
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Fred wrote:
>Interesting, Knuke, but there must have been wax  CH3-(CH2)x-CO-ONa on the
>floor tile,
>which could react with the  x(OH)  Hydroxyl Free Radicals generated in your
>Cavitator.
>
>Vapor Hydrogen Peroxide HO-OH is one of the most potent sterilants in use
>and the allowed TLV concentration is 1 ppm, because it can start free
>radical (OH) chain reactions in your lungs. Yet Hydrogen Peroxide is safely
>used in 3% water solution.   Check out ABTOX and STERIS, two major
>producers-users of Vapor Hydrogen Peroxide,  Johnson & Johnson uses it in
>large quantities to sterilize medical supplies a truckload at a time. This
>is Damn Potent stuff.
>
>You might want to contact these Companies as potential users of your
>Cavitator as
> a Vapor Hydrogen Peroxide (Free Radical, H and OH) Generator.
>

>With a free radical chain reaction going like gangbusters, I'm not
>surprised.  Your are lucky that you're still vertical.

Hi Fred,

The tiles were wall tiles, had been cleaned regularly, and had not be waxed
in the 10 years that I lived there.  The very existence of vapor H2O2 was
vigorously denied by the scientific community for many years.  Toby Grotz's
Dad sent me literature on this, and spent decades trying to convince PhDs in
Chemistry and Physics that it was possible to have H2O2 in a vopor form.
Nearly all of them dismissed him as being a nutcase for even thinking about
it.  Even when he ran tests in front of them, they came up with lame and
obscure excuses.  Of course they were wrong.  You are the first person to
mention vapor H2O2, and I searched the literature some time ago regarding
the use of H2O2 for medical sterlization.  The existence is now recognised
and used.  The amount of H2O2 produced from distilled, areated water in my
device was around 2ppm in solution, as I've mentioned before in this forum.
The company that was funding this research ostensibly specialized in high
cost medical equipment, and told me that they didn't think that this would
be useful for that purpose.  I found out later that they had many "clients".
They were interested in the H2O2 in concentrations large enough to propell a
rocket.

The vapor H2O2 hypothesis is a good one, and may be a partial cause of my
illness, but it still wouldn't explain how my rotor would have been
destroyed.  All I'm saying is that one should be careful when using nuclear
materials, and should EXPECT a vigorous or enhanced reaction especially in a
prototype that is designed specifically for that purpose. 

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 26 13:08:38 1999
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My new website address is 207.225.33.111.  There are  articles about 
plasmoids and cold fusion, tornadoes, and economic theory.  In particular, 
if people are interested in history and philosophy of science and about my 
view of recent history of cold fusion, there is a long book with abstracts 
and articles that people can order.

The history of science is marked by transitions to new paradigms at about 80 
year intervals, due to the scientific method, I think.



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 26 14:16:23 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Virus Alert
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 17:20:15 -0400
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Remi wrote:
>Jed,
>95 is more a legacy system.

Hi Remi,

Check out this for the more recent NT hole.

http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_3530.html

The problem with Microsoft and many other large corporations is not just any
kind of legacy with the product.  I lived in Seattle for 10 years, know many
of the programmers in Redmond, and was asked to apply there for a job.  When
MS started, it was considered by the corporate world to be somewhat of an
idealist maverick in terms of how they treated their employees.  Programmers
were scarce, and companies were very innovative and generous with the
employees.  MS had large, well stocked free food and drink refrigerated
cabinets, sports facilities, and all kinds of other bennies for the
employees, including very lucrative stock matching options, on top of an
outstanding wage packet.  The employees could wear anything, and I mean ANY
THING that they wanted to work.

As a result, Microsoft had at one time a very dedicated, idealistic,
creative and hardworking bunch working for them.  As Microsoft expanded and
competition in the industry increased, many more people were needed, and
this policy of treating the employees as humans began to erode under the
stress of constant demand for ever increasing "shareholder value".
Microsoft also had a practice of non-innovation by design.  When a new
software concept would emerge on the scene, MS would sit back, watch all the
start-ups come up with the good ideas, and then just buy them.  The company
founders would come out OK financially, but as in almost every buyout
situation, the employees would find themselves subjected to new policies
that bred resentment.  Often their only recourse was sabatoge.  Putting in
back doors to the code.

As Microsoft's dominance increased further in the PC industry, it became
obvious to law enforcement officials, government security forces of every
nation, and all the industrial corporate giants, that having someone inside
Microsoft, actively putting backdoors into the product was a good idea.
Microsoft even made this easier by initiating a policy of only hiring
independant contracting firms to do the actual coding of its own product.
By this time programmers were a dime a dozen, and looking for work.  Many
had axes of their own to grind, and they put back doors into the code.  Many
independants actually would work for or service two clients, Microsoft, and
whoever else would pay them to do what they asked.  This is true of almost
every large organization today, including the non-profits, charities, and
public schools.

The MITRE program is an example that was mentioned earlier.  It is a
firewall written for the Air Force.  There is no doubt in my mind that the
Air Force has put back doors into this program.  There is no doubt because I
know an independant contractor that does work for MS and the Air Force.  He
makes a TON of money doing this, and really gets off on it, too.  It is just
the creepier side of business, that's all.  Well, one of the creepier sides,
anyway.  It is not just a legacy of engineering decisions, it's the legacy
of bad capitalism.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 26 14:43:57 1999
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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Hydrogen peroxide vapor sterilization method (US4169123)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 15:29:24 -0600
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 http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn10=US04169123

One of the first Vapor Hydrogen Peroxide (VHP) Sterilization Patents. There
was a patent fight and settlement between a couple of sterilizer/medical
supply companies that ran close to $100Million. :-)

Regards,    Frederick

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URL=3Dhttp://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn10=3DUS04169123
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 26 14:50:53 1999
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Subject: patents that reference US04169123
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 http://www.patents.ibm.com/patlist?&uref_pno=US04169123

This is what you get when you come up with a money-maker.   :-)

The Biomass Energy Corporation that I had (up to 1996) had sub-licensed a
patent that
used H2O2 to de-lignify biomass, to three Fortune 500 Corporations
Worldwide.
I lost about $1/2 Million (on paper) in the 1987 market fiasco, when a
potential licensee
took a bath, when their venture capital sources took a hit.   :-(

Regards,   Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 26 16:46:48 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 19:45:15 EDT
Subject: Re: Analysis of PLEC & other Japanese data
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Mitchell,

The URL that you posted yesterday, June 25, led to a page stating that it was 
a draft not for circulation etc., but that page didn't lead on to the draft 
itself.  Clicking on the "click here" this evening, June 26, just led to a 
404 Error message, URL not found.  Did you only have the paper up for one day 
or is there something wrong with my browser?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 26 18:52:07 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Interesting?
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 01:50:31 GMT
Organization: Improving
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http://lettuce.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp/~okuchi/FeHxe.html
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: More dwarfs?
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 02:04:25 GMT
Organization: Improving
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>http://www.xs4all.nl/~carlkop/lithium.html
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 02:57:35 1999
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In earlier posts a method of generating Brown's gas was described that
focused on the value of doing AC electrolysis using insulated plates, i.e.
capacitive coupling, to a slurry comprised of metal, semiconductor, and
insulator particles in an electrolyte. The main purpose of this post is to
look at the value of this approach in creating a high Q tank oscillator
circuit.

One objective this approach is to make most of the current flow in the cell
due to a capacitive transmission, as opposed to resisitive transmission
through the electrolyte, between metal particles.  For this reason, and to
limit conductivity of the electrolyte, the slurry would be expected to
benefit from ceramic particles with typically high dielectric constants,
i.e. in the range of 80 to 1200.  Small ceramic particles should also have
the useful effect of often separating conductive particles by small fixed
distances.  Ceramic also offers high dielectric strength, on the order of
600 - 1250 volts/mil, and some have high abrasion resistance, thus may be a
good choice for plate insulators or cell sides as well.

There are mixed demands on the conductivity of the electrolyte.  One demand
is to keep it low between conductive fragments in the slurry, in order to
reduce waste heat, and to achieve a high Q for the tank circuit.  The other
demand is to keep it high across the total cell, so as to keep most of the
current out of the electrolyte and in the capacitive coupling mode
travelling through the insulator granules.  Curent carried capacitively by
water, due to the its high dielectric constant, is somewht inefficient due
to the water molecule dipoles rotating. The insulating granules in the
slurry help meet both goals by increasing the path length through the
electrolyte, and by greatly reducing the electrolyte cross sectional area.

Here is a simplistic tank circuit:

          I1
    ---------------  V1
    |             |
    |       -------------
    |       |           |
    |       |           C1
    AC      L1          |  I2
    |       |           |
    |       | I3        R1
    |       |           |
    |       -------------
    |             |
    --------------- Ground

    AC - AC source
    L1 - Inductor
    C1 - The cell capacitance
    R1 - The net cell resistance
    I1 - Input current (rms)
    I2 - Cell current  (rms)
    I3 - Inductor current (rms)
    V1 - supply voltage = cell voltage
    Xl - Reactance of L1
    Xc - Reactance of C2

When the operating frequency is at the resonant frequency fo the tank
circuit L1, C1, R1, the net impedence of the tank circuit is at maximum is
maximum to the AC source, thus the current through the cell I2 is at a
maximum with respect to the input current I1.  In fact,

    I2 = Q * I1 = I1

Where Q is given by:

    Q = Xl/R1

and is a measure of the sharpness of the resonance peak.  Since values of Q
over 100 are not uncommon in ordinary resonance circuits, this is
fascinating, and hints at ou behaviour all by itself.

If Xl is fixed, the best way to improve Q is to decrease R1.  Looking at
only the tank circuit itself:

           -------------
           |           |
           |           C1
           L1          |  I2
           |           |
           | I3        R1
           |           |
           -------------

this is a series resonance.  In a series resonance the net impedence of the
inductor and capacitor disappears, leaving the total circuit impedence Xt:

   Xt = R1

For this reason, the more current carried within the cell capacitively, the
lower the net R1.  The above is a great simplification of the cell, which
is a lattice of capacitances and resistances, however, the more current
carried capacitively, the lower the net resistance, and the higher the
cell's apparent capacitance, thus the more the tank net impedence R1
disappears at resonance, and the higher Q will be.

The higher Q is, the more current I2 that goes through the cell for a given
stimulating current I1.  Note that V1 is both the input voltage and the
voltage across the cell, so power follows the current in proportion.

It remains to balance the conductor concentration in the slurry so as to
get the largest number of "equivalent plates" Ne, and the smallest possible
amount of "equivalent plate separation" Se, and to match the operating
voltage so that

   V1 ~= Ne * 2 volts

While the tank current is way up compared to the stimulating current, and
the voltage is the same, thus the apparent power applied is very high
compared to the input power, not all of it is being applied to generating
gas bubbles.  The conductive particle concentration has to be high in order
to assure the current flows through many (Nreuse) conductive particles, on
average.

If Q and Nreuse can be made large enough, it is tempting to think the
process may have a COP over 1.  This is because electrolysis is dependent
upon the amount of current through the cells conductors, not on the power
applied to the cell.   However, a small flaw in this is that a minimum
voltage must be achieved in order to do the electrolysis, so voltage does
play an important role.  Still, if Q can be made large enough, the cell
will go over unity.

If this mode of electrolysis approaches a high efficiency, and CF can be
made to occur in the cell and produce excess heat, then such heat is
utilized productively in the electrolysis process to make more gas,
especially if the cell is operating without an (equivalent) overvoltage.
An obvious approach to try would be to use a potassium carbonate
electrolyte with a nickel particle slurry.

A construction option worthy of consideration might be to combine the
degassing pump and cell into a single unit.  The cell would then consist of
a flat insulated metal plate on the bottom, with HV AC applied, a pump body
made of an insulating material, containing both the slurry and a rotor made
of dielectric material, with no slurry exit, a grounded circular plate  on
top, and a sealed hole through the top plate containing the rotating shaft,
the inside of which is hollowed out, with lateral holes, to accomodate the
gass flow out of the cell.  This is an "all in one" cell.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 04:28:08 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 07:32:03 -0400
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Gnorts,

After reading Ed's suggestions, all I can think is that we talking in circles.

I'm the one who suggested the presence of a trace amount of radioactive
material, BTW.  I do have another suggestion for Case, Perkins, et. alia,
and it is a simple, low cost, easy to do thing, that requires no math.  It's
the kind of thing that I specialize in.:-)  You can run a small, high
powered magnet over the catalyst before you use it.  Any material that is
magnetic, including Cobalt, will stick to it.  You can separate the magnetic
stuff out of the rest of the catalyst, and when you have enough collected,
you can run that in a separate cell.  If that cell performs well, then you
can pursue it further, and analyse what is actually in the catalyst.  This
method isn't perfect, but it doesn't require any money, or much time, and
you won't destroy the catalyst in any way.

Another idea for you do-it-yourself home experimenters is to use the method
that I suggested earlier for doping water, and grow some bamboo
hydroponically, in batches with different amounts of dopant.  When the
bamboo is mature, you can cut it, dry it out, and roast it.  It should leave
you with a natural carbon nanotube structure with built-in trace amounts of
radioactive material as part of the general lattice.  You can crush the
fibers and separate the magnetic stuff like I suggested above, or use try
using them as long fibers, depending on your application.  You can also
shape them before roasting into geometries, using natural, burnable
materials like paper mache.  If you roast them carefully, you should end up
long-fiber, doped conducting material that has a geometric shape.

If the Case cell does prove to be an energy source that relies on trace
amounts of radioactive material, then this bamboo idea may be a good one.
Bamboo removes a lot of CO2 from the atmosphere, and you could plant it
along the Columbia River, for example, to get some of the junk out of the
soil before it gets to the Yakima River Valley.  It wouldn't be much help,
but it might supplement the effort made by the dumping of 60 - 80 tons of
Freon a day into open holes in the ground to contain the leakage as they are
doing now.

Just a thought.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 04:29:03 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: new articles on my site
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 07:32:00 -0400
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>Dear Vorta,
>
>I wanted to talk about new articles on my site for people to look at.
>
>I think I discovered an effect of radioactivity stimulating radioactivity 
>from a cell two years ago.  I tried to publish articles about this, but they 
>haven't gotten published, but it is a little similar to what Conte recently 
>reported.  A radioactive object near an electrolysis cell seemed to promote 
>radioactivity from the cell a significantly.
>
>Have other people noticed this effect?  ed

Why don't you just copyright your paper and put it on the Vortex or a
webpage.  If any publisher wants to put it into print, they still have to
ask you.  If you sit on it, no one will know about it, and it will go stale.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 08:35:12 1999
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Subject: Re: Case & Arata
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 11:05:52 -0400
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----Original Message-----
From: Michael T Huffman


>Gnorts,
>
>After reading Ed's suggestions, all I can think is that we talking in
circles.
>
>I'm the one who suggested the presence of a trace amount of radioactive
>material, BTW.  I do have another suggestion for Case, Perkins, et. alia,
>and it is a simple, low cost, easy to do thing, that requires no math.
It's
>the kind of thing that I specialize in.:-)  You can run a small, high
>powered magnet over the catalyst before you use it.  Any material that is
>magnetic, including Cobalt, will stick to it.

With all the talk about stuff absorbed and entangled in the fibrous catalyst
substrate, this doesn't work. You might pick up surface magnetic dust, but
not anything seriously entangled in the fibers.

Mike Carrell



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 08:55:32 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 11:58:18 -0400
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Mike wrote:
>With all the talk about stuff absorbed and entangled in the fibrous catalyst
>substrate, this doesn't work. You might pick up surface magnetic dust, but
>not anything seriously entangled in the fibers.
>
>Mike Carrell

I guess I don't really know what this catalyst looks like, but I was under
the impression that it was a very small bead structure with a carbon core,
and a Pd coating.  If anything magnetic were inside the bead, a strong
enough magnet would pick up the whole bead, or maybe not I don't know, but
I'd try it.  It would take all of 5 minutes to check.  Ideally, I'd do it at
the time of manufacture, before the Pd coating were put on, but that's not
possible with this lot.

Knuke 
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 09:42:58 1999
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Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 12:44:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: nano structure and magnetic ..
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y
	Dear Vo.,

	Following is a general bit of information.
	Please STRESS the general ... many people take a give sentence
or statement a apply it glogally and out of context...
	

	a]	If you have ferromagnetic material ... say steel ... in 'big'
pieces ... say 1 cm by 1 cm by 1cm ... the steel will exhibit ferromanetic
properties.

	b]	If you start to chop up the steel into smaller pieces then
soon your pieces will contain only a few domains ... say 10 in the
particle......
		These little particles will still be ferromagnetic.

	c] NOW: If you chop the small pieces even SMALLER ... at some
point the particle will be SMALLER than the size of a single domain...
	
	d] .... at this point the material will oftn exhibit different
magnetic properties, such as 'super para magnetic' ..... this material
will be gently magnetic ....  about 1/million the effect of ferromagnetic
.... but still a positive magnetic effect.... but VERY much weaker.

				J


On Sun, 27 Jun 1999, Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Mike wrote:
> >With all the talk about stuff absorbed and entangled in the fibrous catalyst
> >substrate, this doesn't work. You might pick up surface magnetic dust, but
> >not anything seriously entangled in the fibers.
> >
> >Mike Carrell
> 
> I guess I don't really know what this catalyst looks like, but I was under
> the impression that it was a very small bead structure with a carbon core,
> and a Pd coating.  If anything magnetic were inside the bead, a strong
> enough magnet would pick up the whole bead, or maybe not I don't know, but
> I'd try it.  It would take all of 5 minutes to check.  Ideally, I'd do it at
> the time of manufacture, before the Pd coating were put on, but that's not
> possible with this lot.
> 
> Knuke 
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 09:49:01 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 12:53:11 -0400
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>I guess I don't really know what this catalyst looks like, but I was under
>the impression that it was a very small bead structure with a carbon core,
>and a Pd coating.  If anything magnetic were inside the bead, a strong
>enough magnet would pick up the whole bead, or maybe not I don't know, but
>I'd try it.  It would take all of 5 minutes to check.  Ideally, I'd do it at
>the time of manufacture, before the Pd coating were put on, but that's not
>possible with this lot.

Another cheap thing to try is waving one of those $10 UV lamps over the
catalyst to see if there is any visible difference in the beads.  That
wouldn't take long either.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 10:34:37 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Question on AC electrode H loading
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It seems reasonable that AC current will load an electrolysis electrode
with hydrogen to an extent, but the fugacity and loading percentage
achieved may be small.

During the loading phase of the AC cycle, where the metal surface is
cathodic, loading should occur normally as a function of voltage.  However,
when the current is reversed, mostly diffusion must relieve the hydrogen
pressure inside the metal lattice, because the metal lattice has low
resistance, thus maintains a low internal field gradient.   It seems to be
a reasonable premise that higher loading ratios should be achieved at
higher frequencies, because less time is available beween cycles for
diffusion to effect the gas evolution before the subsequent cycle
kinetically blasts the surface with hydrogen ions.  The loading is
essentially being achieved by an inirtial effect.   However, it seems
unrealistic to expect an AC process to achieve the 50 percent loading
typically assumed to be necessary before the onset of CF.

Question: have there been studies of electrode hydrogen loading percentages
in AC conditions, and with regard to frequency?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 10:46:10 1999
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Subject: Re: nano structure and magnetic ..
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 13:37:00 -0400
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John wrote:
>	d] .... at this point the material will oftn exhibit different
>magnetic properties, such as 'super para magnetic' ..... this material
>will be gently magnetic ....  about 1/million the effect of ferromagnetic
>.... but still a positive magnetic effect.... but VERY much weaker.

I know John, I said the idea wasn't perfect or ideal, just cheap and easy.
If they get some of the catalyst to exhibit so much as a wiggle with a
magnet, then they have a difference in the catalyst that they can work with.
If they are picking up metal from the outside, and it doesn't get cleaned
off, then they have a difference that they can work with.  It's just simple
investigative work, that's all.  Find differences and see which is better.
The metal may be a contaminant, or it may be a necessary thing, but if they
are finding anything besides carbon and Pd in some of the catalyst then
there is a difference.

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 12:56:37 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Case & Arata
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 15:55:07 -0400
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Knuke,

> >I guess I don't really know what this catalyst looks like, but I
> was under
> >the impression that it was a very small bead structure with a
> carbon core,
> >and a Pd coating.

No.  If you took a charcoal briquet, put it in a plastic bag and smashed it
with a hammer until the typical piece long dimension was about 3/8", it
would resemble it.  There is not visible palladium.  I'm not sure how it is
deposited, but there is very little of it.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 13:08:44 1999
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Subject: Re: Case & Arata
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Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Mike wrote:
> >With all the talk about stuff absorbed and entangled in the fibrous catalyst
> >substrate, this doesn't work. You might pick up surface magnetic dust, but
> >not anything seriously entangled in the fibers.
> >
> >Mike Carrell
>
> I guess I don't really know what this catalyst looks like, but I was under
> the impression that it was a very small bead structure with a carbon core,
> and a Pd coating.  If anything magnetic were inside the bead, a strong
> enough magnet would pick up the whole bead, or maybe not I don't know, but
> I'd try it.  It would take all of 5 minutes to check.  Ideally, I'd do it at
> the time of manufacture, before the Pd coating were put on, but that's not
> possible with this lot.
>

I tried the magnet suggestion on my batch of catalyst and no sign of magnetic
material is evident.  Indeed, I would not expect Fe, Ni or Co to be present in
the material in elemental form.  If they are there at all, they would be
combined with carbon to form the carbides, which are not magnetic.

What is the point to such speculations?  Even if magnetic material were found,
it would take years of study to determine its effect on the anomalous
observations.  Meanwhile any person with a functioning imagination could suggest
hundreds of variables to study.  Right now, the focus is on getting the effect
to occur with some regularity, showing that the heat and helium result from a
nuclear reaction, not from prosaic processes as have been suggested, and finding
money to explore the important variables which have some understanding behind
them.  Help in this effort and you will be a hero.

Ed Storms

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 13:41:08 1999
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John, All,

Ferromagnetism = paramagnetism with molecular or 'Weiss/Brillouin' field.

In paramagnetism, one uses statistical mechanics to say how the dipole
line up in applied field against perturbing effect of heat randomising
them.

In ferromagnetism, they get a 'boost' by the molecular field which
manfests itself as the exchange force. The exchange force is a qm effect
like the Pauli principle that tends to align spins in the same direction -
it is very powerful == 10^6Oe. The result of this is that fm materials
have a moment in absence of applied fields.

There is a certain critical size for the fm effect to become true fm not
pm. A 2D layer is nearly fm and requires only a small applied field to
latch on the ferromagnetism. You got to have enough stuff around the
material for the effect ot work - hence a finite size for domains. Check
Aharoni for the theory (Intro to Theory of Ferrom. Oxford Science). The
formula has a very sharp power law that result in a relaxation time from
nano secs to 1000s of sec by a small change in size - ie it is something
that latches in very rapidly.

Superparamagnetism is between fm and pm and represents the transition. It
is hard to saturate a pm material, one having to go very low temps. A spm
behaves like a giant dipole with massive spin. The same Curie-Weiss Law
applies but our spin is much greater therefore it saturates easily.

Fm materials are 'simple' on the level of a single domain and behave like
bar magnets. A larg fm smaple breaks up in to domains to lower its
magnetostatic energy - the limit being when it becomes energetically
infavorable to make more domain walls (you do work against the exchange
force you see). The hystersis effect (the B-H curve) of a larg fm sample
is due to these domain walls moving as you apply the field. Energy is
dissipated and you don't trace the same curve.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 13:44:23 1999
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Knuke (or Mike?)
Very informative and worrying. What do you think of linux? It needs to
break that scalability barrier to compete at the top end and needs more
features (easy setup, more drivers) for home use. Keep meaning to install
it and give it a go.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 16:26:59 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 19:24:40 EDT
Subject: RE: PLEC:  Technique Changes at NERL?
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Ed,

Did your first experiments with an Ohmori-type plasma electrolysis cell last 
year include stirring the electrolyte?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 17:00:38 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Subject: RE: PLEC:  Technique Changes at NERL?
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 19:58:26 -0400
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Tom,


>
> Did your first experiments with an Ohmori-type plasma
> electrolysis cell last
> year include stirring the electrolyte?

Not initially, but we soon employed a magnetic stirrer and teflon coated
stir bar.  We also quickly learned that K2CO3 is pretty rough on
thermocouples.

Ed Wall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 17:26:06 1999
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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Substitute Mercury for Palladium?
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 18:16:49 -0600
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To: Vortex

Some interesting similarities between Mercury and Palladium:

        Ionization Potential     Valence   Electronegativity
           I         II         III    

Pd    8.34   19.43    32.93      2, 4            2.20

Hg   10.44   18.76    34.20     2, 1             2.00

Hg-H  or Hg-D  Compounds under modest pressure at 600 K?

Regards,      Frederick 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 18:01:11 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Other methods of detecting helium leaks
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Ross Tessien writes:

	Jed, this doesn't make sense.  If you hold out a sealed sample
	of material from each batch you put into the test chamber,
	then, when the test in the chamber turns out positive, you
	check that batch of charcoal.

No good, I am afraid. The "skeptic" would claim that reserved, sealed
sample was different from the one that produce helium, which cannot be
proved or disproved. (All skeptical objections to CF fall in this
category.) I agree this makes no sense, but for that matter, the notion
that you can have a steady flow of helium from carbon makes no sense, and
neither does the idea that one sample might hold thousands of times more
helium than another.

Horace Heffner writes:

	This is quite a feat.  Natural HE3 abundance is 1.37x10^-6
	percent. The He "generated by CF" is only in trace amounts
	already.

That is incorrect. The He generated by CF in the Case cell is twice as
abundant as the atmosphere. Whether this is a "trace" amount or a massive
amount depends upon the sensitivity of instrument. To the instruments at
SRI, it is a huge amount, far above the minimum threshold of detection, and
far above the level at which D2 looks like He-4. To call something a
"trace" amount without qualification is like saying that a printed period
is small. Not when you examine it with an electron microscope!


	This is gross distortion.  You must be getting hard up for
	arguments.  I have never said look for x-type carbon.  I have
	further specifically excluded closed forms, like buckyballs or
	closed nano-tubes.

You misunderstand. I realize that you never said to look for x-type carbon.
I am saying that if you *do not say that*, your hypothesis cannot be proved
or disproved. You can always claim that by a fantastic coincidence that the
samples which ended up in deuterium cylinder always held 100,000 more
helium than any other. And when these samples were tested after the
experiment but no helium was found, well, it must have all come out, right?
And unfortunately the testing is destructive so we cannot run it again.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 18:01:30 1999
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Subject: OFF TOPIC QWERTY controversy
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John Logajan thinks the qwerty keyboard is no worse than Dvorak and other
arrangements. His point of view is well represented by an essay by
Liebowitz and Margolis, Journal of Law & Economics (April 1990):

http://wwwpub.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/keys1.html

I agree with the conventional point of view, described by Steven J. Gould
in chapter 4, "Bully For Brontosaurus," (W. W. Norton, 1991). I think some
of the qwerty problems are obvious, and what caused them is well documented
in the early patents and surviving machines. The most commonly used letters
in English, e,t,a,o,n, are mostly on the left, out of the home row, and
assigned to weakest fingers. (Most people are right handed.)

Many more common words can be typed in the home row type with Dvorak and
similar arrangements. The hands would move less, the fingers would stretch
less, and even if this did not affect the error rate (which seems unlikely
despite Liebowitz and Margolis' statistics), it would, at least, reduce
CTS. The less movement per sentence, the better. Of course, if typing
speeds up people would end up typing more . . . Quoting a conventional
analysis:

	With the Dvorak keyboard, a typist can type about 400 of the
	English language's most common words without ever leaving the
	home row. The comparable figure on QWERTY is 100. The home row
	letters on Dvorak do a total of 70% of the work. On QWERTY they
	do only 32%.

	- Early Typewriter Collectors Association,
http://home.earthlink.net/~dcrehr/whyqwert.html

(The author concludes that despite this advantage, Dvorak is only
marginally better than qwerty and he links to Liebowitz and Margolis, but I
still disagree.)

In any case, the keyboard is obsolescent technology, thank goodness. I
predict that within 10 or 20 years it will be superceded with voice input
for most typing.

Logajan writes:

	The idea that QWERTY was locked in early is also untenable.
	There were no pools of typists then . . .

Ah, but there were. As Gould and others describe, schools for typists were
established in New York and Boston, and by happenstance they taught the
qwerty keyboard. It did not take long for this to become the standard.


	. . . the typewriter companies usually had to provide typists
	training or personnel along with their machines . . .

I do not think so. The Remington #2 (1878) sold in the tens of  thousands,
and they were shipped all over the country. You see photos of small town
newspapers and businesses with typewriters in the background. They could
not have provided operators to all customers.

	. . . so each typewriter vendor had an equal opportunity to
	sell machines.

The typewriter schools and teach-yourself book publishers established the
standard. It wasn't the hardware vendors, it was the software vendors who
set the standard, just as Microsoft set the PC standard after 1982.


	And as you can see by examining old typewriters, changing key
	layouts only required a re-soldering process, so that if there
	were any huge benefit to one layout over the other . . .

There was a huge benefit to qwerty, which is why Sholes tried to patent the
configuration as well as the general idea of spreading frequently used keys
out.


	They never did -- because they knew then from the widely
	reported contests around the country that QWERTY was an
	effective layout . . .

It was *mechanically* effective. That was the whole point. It solved the
early problems with key jams and allowed fast typing.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: Substitute Mercury for Palladium?
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----- Original Message -----
From: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <Therob nauticom.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 1999 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: Substitute Mercury for Palladium?

BTW, the sealed Heat Pipe design posted last week should work quite well as
a P&F electrolysis cell with a Hg Cathode and H2O or D2O with K2CO3  and
some Cat Converter Beads used as a Recombiner:
             |<-- anode
        O| | |O<--Calorimeter Tubing
        O| | |O
        O| | |O
        O| | |O
           | | |
           | | |<--Adiabatic   Zone
           | | |
           | | |
           | | |<-- H2O-D2O-K2CO3 Level, Insulating tube over Anode Tube.**
           |_ |<--Hg   Cathode Level

** A tubular Anode (Stainless or Copper)section can double as a sampling
vent for the device.

Regards,       Frederick




> To: Vortex
>
> Some interesting similarities between Mercury and Palladium:
>
>         Ionization Potential     Valence   Electronegativity
>            I         II         III
>
> Pd    8.34   19.43    32.93      2, 4            2.20
>
> Hg   10.44   18.76    34.20     2, 1             2.00
>
> Hg-H  or Hg-D  Compounds under modest pressure at 600 K?
>
> Regards,      Frederick
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 19:13:26 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Other methods of detecting helium leaks
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At 8:25 PM 6/27/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Horace Heffner writes:
>
>        This is quite a feat.  Natural HE3 abundance is 1.37x10^-6
>        percent. The He "generated by CF" is only in trace amounts
>        already.
>
>That is incorrect. The He generated by CF in the Case cell is twice as
>abundant as the atmosphere. Whether this is a "trace" amount or a massive
>amount depends upon the sensitivity of instrument. To the instruments at
>SRI, it is a huge amount, far above the minimum threshold of detection, and
>far above the level at which D2 looks like He-4. To call something a
>"trace" amount without qualification is like saying that a printed period
>is small. Not when you examine it with an electron microscope!


You have completely distorted my remarks.  I did not say that there was any
problem detecting the He4 in the quantity present, that it was beyond the
sensitivity of the instrument, only that if you take 1.37x10^-6 percent of
that, the natural abundance of He3 you would expect to find from an
atmospheric source, you have an unquantifyable amount of He3.  In other
words, a trace amount may be measurable, but a 1.37x10^-8 of a trace is
not, thus the method you suggest does not seem likely to work for
determining the helium source.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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On Sun, 27 Jun 1999 20:25:16 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Ross Tessien writes:
>
>	Jed, this doesn't make sense.  If you hold out a sealed sample
>	of material from each batch you put into the test chamber,
>	then, when the test in the chamber turns out positive, you
>	check that batch of charcoal.
>
>No good, I am afraid. The "skeptic" would claim that reserved, sealed
>sample was different from the one that produce helium, which cannot be
>proved or disproved. (All skeptical objections to CF fall in this

While this might be true for a single experiment, it could be shown to
be statistically unlikely for a large number of experiments.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 21:17:46 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Other methods of detecting helium leaks
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Horace Heffner writes:


>You have completely distorted my remarks.  I did not say that there was any
>problem detecting the He4 in the quantity present, that it was beyond the
>sensitivity of the instrument, only that if you take 1.37x10^-6 percent of
>that, the natural abundance of He3 you would expect to find from an
>atmospheric source, you have an unquantifyable amount of He3 . . .

Oops, yes. Good point. I did not connect with 'helium-3.' However, as it
happens, the amount of He-3 found in CF cells is often thousands of times
greater than the natural abundance, enough to be detected and quantified. I
believe that is what SRI has found, but they have not officially discussed
the results yet.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 22:11:26 1999
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From: Ross Tessien <tessien oro.net>
Subject: Re: Other methods of detecting helium leaks
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References: <v01530500b39c89790777 [12.21.208.131]>
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At 12:15 AM 6/28/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Horace Heffner writes:
>
>
>>You have completely distorted my remarks.  I did not say that there was any
>>problem detecting the He4 in the quantity present, that it was beyond the
>>sensitivity of the instrument, only that if you take 1.37x10^-6 percent of
>>that, the natural abundance of He3 you would expect to find from an
>>atmospheric source, you have an unquantifyable amount of He3 . . .
>
>Oops, yes. Good point. I did not connect with 'helium-3.' However, as it
>happens, the amount of He-3 found in CF cells is often thousands of times
>greater than the natural abundance, enough to be detected and quantified. I
>believe that is what SRI has found, but they have not officially discussed
>the results yet.
>

See, yet another way to zero in on stuff that cannot be explained away.
Check the He3 to He4 ratio.  And while it is correct that the ratio in
natural abundances might be hard to detect as pointed out, there is no
reason to expect the natural abundance ratios to hold if the He4 is being
"manufactured" via some reaction.  So, it should be checked, period, and
reported.  If none is detected, then "none" is the data point we get.



rt


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 22:19:43 1999
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Subject: Case:  Just build it!
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OK Jed............   ;-)

We had the McKubre:  Just test it thread, so this is one I am curious about.

You and Case say that the device will scale and produce net heat output as
desired.  Then, if it is so repeatable, and so scaleable, and so
commercially viable, then why isn't Case just building a big one and
boiling water and hooking it up to a steam turbine?  It would cost less to
build a big one to boil water than it does to conduct all these tests using
mass spec and laboratories like SRI to investigate the performances.

So, if it is truly so great, what is up?  Why not build a big one of them
and run the power generation.  Even just boiling away a bunch of water
would tell the story.  Measure how much water is boiled away and the temp
of the exiting steam for a cheap test that would cost just the amount of
purchase of the C with Pd on it.

And, if that is not cost effective, then what the heck are we wasting time
discussing it for?  If it is cost effective, then couple the thing to his
own home hot water heater to get back some of the energy or something.

What's up with not building a big one?

rt



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 23:17:43 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Other methods of detecting helium leaks
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At 12:15 AM 6/28/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:
[snip]
... as it
>happens, the amount of He-3 found in CF cells is often thousands of times
>greater than the natural abundance, enough to be detected and quantified. I
>believe that is what SRI has found, but they have not officially discussed
>the results yet.

This is a very significant finding, and far more indicative of a nuclear
reaction, IMHO.  Of course there would be aliasing with DH to worry about,
but probably readily resolvable?  A tritium alias would be no bother due to
the fact it also would be an indicator of nuclear reactions taking place,
as would Li3.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 27 23:38:59 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Other methods of detecting helium leaks
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At 12:15 AM 6/28/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:
[snip]
... as it
>happens, the amount of He-3 found in CF cells is often thousands of times
>greater than the natural abundance, enough to be detected and quantified. I
>believe that is what SRI has found, but they have not officially discussed
>the results yet.

This is a very significant finding, and far more indicative of a nuclear
reaction, IMHO.  Of course there would be aliasing with DH to worry about,
but probably readily resolvable?  A tritium alias would be no bother due to
the fact it also would be an indicator of nuclear reactions taking place,
as would Li3.

Oops!  there is no such thing as Li3!

BTW, testing for tritium, especially in the carbon, is a nearly trivial
procedure used in many bio and pharmacology labs.  It, coincidentally
enough, involves burning the sample (usually a tissue sample) in oxygen in
a flat bottomed flask, which is then placed in a dry ice and acetone bath,
or equivalent, to freeze the water to the bottom of the flask.  A few cc's
of scintillating fluid is then pured into the flask and the water permitted
to thaw and absorb into the scintillating fluid.  The scintillating fluid
is then poured into a UV transparent plastic vial and placed in a conveyor
belt or drum for automated counting.  Looking for tritium in burnable solid
samples is very cheap and the procedure is very very sensitive.  You might
be able to get a univeristy pharmacology lab to do it for next to nothing.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 00:16:03 1999
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Michael,
No, I thought about your response and it strikes me as odd. If a
programmer knowingly left a 'backdoor' he is a criminal or if he failed to
use proper techniques and the management didn't guide him on this, then
they are criminally negligent or if the code had a problem, then that
programmer is just incompetent.

I find it hard to believe that a bug can with hindsight be said to be a
'clever trick'. If one makes a mistake, come clean. A problem like a
buffer overflow which would affect 90% of NT machines if it is not
criminal is a severe case of the stupids and a programmer shouldn't be
bragging about a 'backdoor' he left.

No, rather than say 'bad capitalism', a good workman, no matter what the
conditions will do a good job. His name is attached to his work - 'so and
so did this', '*I* did that'. Rather than complain that when a company is
taken over that suddenly the shareholders rule, he should finish the task
and then leave.

It's morally indefensible to sanction this kind of sabotage.

Any younger people watching this list or those needing moral guidance,
DON'T DO IT. Software engineering is being seen as just a crucial
engineering profession as say structual engineering. My father (a SE)
always used to stress to me that if he did anything wrong, he would be up
on manlaughter charges.

Remember, if you don't like a place, bide you time then leave for
something better. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO SABOTAGE.

For instance, rather than blame capitalism for environmental problems and
become one of the gadflies like the 'Stop the City' protest in London, I
try to do something constructive AND BE REWARDED WITH A PROFIT. 
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 00:55:58 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Hydrogen peroxide vapor sterilization method (US4169123)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 04:00:22 -0400
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Fred wrote:
> http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn10=US04169123
>
>One of the first Vapor Hydrogen Peroxide (VHP) Sterilization Patents. There
>was a patent fight and settlement between a couple of sterilizer/medical
>supply companies that ran close to $100Million. :-)

Yeah, I looked at the patent, and some of the refs went back to the 20's!  I
wonder why Walter Grotz had such a hard time convincing people that it was
real with all the evidence?

My machine, the Schaefer device and the H pump, all produced a very dry
steam.  I don't know if Griggs ever tested his for steam volume, but I
posted test results in the very early days of the Vortex Group that showed
XS steam (~250%) being generated by the device that the Aqua Corp. was
developing when Griggs came on the scene.  This test was performed by an
indie lab.  I never had a chance to measure the steam volume on my machine,
and I rarely operated it in that temp range because of the material
limitations.  I can tell you that while I did observe H2O2 production in
solution at ambient temperatures (~2ppm), charged microbubbles that stayed
in suspension until I dumped them out (~1 week), excess heat (~5 - 25%), and
other neat stuff, I never once got so much as a sniffle from running the
thing until I put the trace quantities of U daughter products in the water.
And I ran hundreds of tests.

I think the reason the company that was funding me didn't want to bother
with the medical industry app, was that there were already several competing
designs that were similar in results that were just being marketed.  They
didn't want to step into the middle of all that.  Who would?  I had a blast
researching, building, and testing the device, but the business part of it
just made me want to puke.  Nonstop.  Still does;)

Thanks for the URL!

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 01:40:15 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 04:44:34 -0400
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Ed wrote:
>What is the point to such speculations?  Even if magnetic material were found,
>it would take years of study to determine its effect on the anomalous
>observations.  Meanwhile any person with a functioning imagination could
suggest
>hundreds of variables to study.  Right now, the focus is on getting the effect
>to occur with some regularity, showing that the heat and helium result from a
>nuclear reaction, not from prosaic processes as have been suggested, and
finding
>money to explore the important variables which have some understanding behind
>them.  Help in this effort and you will be a hero.
>
>Ed Storms

I don't know how you can get the device to function with greater regularity
without understanding it better, and the tests that I proposed were given to
help you reduce your expenditures in looking for material differences in the
catalyst.  The Wittaker reference that I gave was to let you know that there
was a mathmatical justification for the other suggestion that I made
regarding doping the catalyst.

When I was first told of this formula I didn't understand it, but now I can
see how it might apply in this cell.  The formula, as I understand it now,
was an extension on the usual formulas that can be found in today's texts
that incorporated or accounted for the effects of EM pulses given off by
radioactive decay that would allow for transmutation and fusion to occur
under much lower input power levels than you see in today's reactors.  The
reason that it was kept secret, and removed from subsequent publications,
was that things like the production of gold, Tritium production, remediation
of nuclear waste, and the enrichment of nuclear fuels would be possible on a
tabletop basically, just like with the Fusor.

It's not prosaic, well these days it might be, actually.  Platinum and gold
have been found to be trace by-products of other cold fusion processes, and
are well documented in the literature.  You've been at this game for a
while, now.  You know all this stuff.  The P&F methods just don't work as
well as some of the others, like lasers, and the Fusor.  Fred Sparber's
designs just might solve all your funding problems, although I'd still add a
small amount of U to the mix.  My suggestion regarding the Case cell, and
any carbon nanotube structure cell would just be a bit safer for a heat
producing device, that's all.  You don't have to try it.;)

Knuke 
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 01:58:45 1999
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Subject: Re: Virus, Incompetency, Sabotage and Morals
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 05:03:20 -0400
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Remi,
>It's morally indefensible to sanction this kind of sabotage.

I didn't sanction it, Remi, merely reported the facts.  As Ann Landers says,
"Wake up and smell the coffee". :-)

I'm a big advocate of LINUX, and all open development programs.  You can
copyright your work, and still publish the code so that others can see it,
and you'll retain your right to profit from it.  If someone tried to write a
backdoor into the LINUX code, he would be caught, and the code repaired
before any release was made.  With Windows, the customer is always behind
the curve on the patches and updates, and left open to the unscrupulous for
at least a certain amount of time.  I could tell you a lot of true stories,
Remi, but why bother.  Many of them I read about in the trade presses every
day, but some of the funnier ones I heard about from the inside people.  On
a not so funny note, a guy hacked his way into one of your military
satellites, not more than a couple of months ago.  Moved it around even.
Did they catch him?  I never heard.  This kind of stuff has been going on
since day one.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 03:05:58 1999
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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <Therob nauticom.net>
Subject: Re: Substitute Mercury for Palladium?
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 03:57:38 -0600
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Robin wrote:

Something about a Pitchfork, er Pitchman, which I'm working on.  :-)

FWIW, there are about 4.07E22 Hg(liquid) atoms/cm^3 and 
about 6.82E22 Pd(solid) atoms/cm^3, which gives an atom 
spacing of about 2.96 angstroms for Hg, and 2.45 angstroms for Pd.

Seems to me, that H or D could "diffuse" and "load" into Hg easier than
it could into Pd, thus forming HgHx or HgDx?

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 04:30:01 1999
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Ed wrote:
>No.  If you took a charcoal briquet, put it in a plastic bag and smashed it
>with a hammer until the typical piece long dimension was about 3/8", it
>would resemble it.  There is not visible palladium.  I'm not sure how it is
>deposited, but there is very little of it.
>
>Ed Wall

Interesting.  It kind of changes the symmetries that I was envisioning in
the macro-environment, but the micro-environment would be the same. I could
be all wrong about that too, though.  I was wondering how they managed to
manufacture it into a bead, anyway.  Now I know... they didn't!   The URL
for the paper is on my drive somewhere, I guess I'll have to actually read
it.  This move to Florida really put me behind on that score.  Thanks,

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 04:36:59 1999
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Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:38:55 -0400
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>Robin wrote:
>
>Something about a Pitchfork, er Pitchman, which I'm working on.  :-)
>
>FWIW, there are about 4.07E22 Hg(liquid) atoms/cm^3 and 
>about 6.82E22 Pd(solid) atoms/cm^3, which gives an atom 
>spacing of about 2.96 angstroms for Hg, and 2.45 angstroms for Pd.
>
>Seems to me, that H or D could "diffuse" and "load" into Hg easier than
>it could into Pd, thus forming HgHx or HgDx?
>
>Regards,   Frederick

Throw it in the blender, Fred! 8)  I put my guitar in there, and ALL the key
tones came right out!

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 04:45:34 1999
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Subject: Re: Case:  Just build it!
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:42:27 -0000
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From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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>
>What's up with not building a big one?
>
>rt
>
>
Case *IS* building big one! It has proved to be much more difficult than 
he thought. He is using some proprietray ideas and experiencing 
leak/design problems as he goes along.  It may also be that the per gram 
of catalyst power density is less than he expected but he hasn't reallly 
gotten to that point yet.  He has experienced problems with a dud batch 
of catalyst too.

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 06:25:56 1999
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Okay Michael,

I'm not saying you did but don't praise the anti-hero. If something is
wrong, make it better or else don't complain. If one can't make it better,
get out of the way and let someone who can.

Yes, open source is the way to go. I showed a manager open source to say
'look, this is how the experts do it, Janet and John code, really simple
tidy code' I got my point across. 
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 06:58:16 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Jed wrote:

> The He generated by CF in the Case cell is twice as
> abundant as the atmosphere.

Early runs by Case yielded much higher than 11 ppm.  I seem to remember 600
ppm from a cell that had run for an extended duration.  This determination
was done by a large commercial laboratory.

> And when these samples were tested after the
> experiment but no helium was found, well, it must have all come
> out, right?

Well, if the cell was producing 4He, the catalyst will have some in it, so
the testing has to be done on a sample of catalyst that was not put into the
cell.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 08:09:50 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Case:  Just build it!
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Ross Tessien writes:

	You and Case say that the device will scale and produce net heat
	output as desired.

Case says that, I don't. I have no idea whether the device will scale up. I
do not even know whether it exists or not. One replication at SRI is
promising, but it will take more than that to convince me.


	Then, if it is so repeatable, and so scaleable, and so
	commercially viable, then why isn't Case just building a big one
	and boiling water and hooking it up to a steam turbine?

He has been trying to do that for a year, with no success so far. Is
obviously not easily repeatable.


	And, if that is not cost effective, then what the heck are we
	wasting time discussing it for?  If it is cost effective, then
	couple the thing to his own home hot water heater to get back
	some of the energy or something.

We have no idea whether the thing would be cost-effective. That depends
upon the operating temperatures and the useful lifetime of the catalyst. It
is much too early to judge cost-effectiveness.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 08:37:33 1999
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Subject: Re: Virus, Incompetency, Sabotage and Morals
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All,

DEC Vax's have a documented back door, but it can only be used if you have 
physical access to the machine.  The idea being that if your physical 
security system has allowed someone access to get into the hardware of the 
machine then they could just pull your hard drives and install them in 
another system and read/alter the data.

The purpose of the back door is perfectly legitimate.  It is not uncommon 
for a customer to lose track of the system password for any number of 
reasons.  Someone dies, gets fired and gets nasty, or just forgets.  Or as 
in my case, I have purchased a couple of these machines, and a new owner 
needs to be able to get in to re-establish system access.  And when you buy 
them on the cheap like I do (3rd or 5th hand), you seldom can contact the 
original owner to get the password.

A friend of mine was working on an Air Force contract several years ago and 
as a side project he enhanced their security system at their request after 
he pointed out that the current system had a number of security loopholes.
He got a call about five years later, they had lost the documentation and 
couldn't figure out how to get in anymore.  Evidently before they were able 
to find him they had spent about a quarter of a million on security 
consultants trying to get past his security system.

Bill
webriggs concentric.net
briggs XLNsystems.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 08:47:30 1999
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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
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Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC QWERTY controversy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990627205852.00699c7c pop.mindspring.com> from Jed Rothwell at "Jun 27, 99 08:58:52 pm"
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Jed wrote:
> John Logajan thinks the qwerty keyboard is no worse than Dvorak and other
> arrangements. 

I simply believe that experimental results trump theory.

Dvorak et al had wonderful theories why the QWERTY keyboard was
bad, but in experimental tests, equal training on QWERTY versus
equal training on Dvorak had similar results.  There was no
benefit to Dvorak over QWERTY.

Experiment 1, Theory 0.


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 09:20:14 1999
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Remi writes:

	I'm not too sure of this Amercanism. 'Wee' sounds like pee, so
	to me a weenie is a low ranking male with a small member . . .

Surprisingly, this word is in the American Heritage Dictionary:

weenie noun
1. Informal. A wiener [frankfurter]
2. Slang. A person, especially a man, who is regarded as being weak and
ineffectual.
  
  
	Anyway I think Bill is alright. If you don't have something nice
	to say  about someone...

Alice Roosevelt Longworth, Theodore Roosevelt's daughter, had an
embroidered pillow on her couch that said:  "If you can't say something
good about someone, sit right here by me." She said Calvin Coolidge "looked
as if he had been weaned on a pickle;" and FDR was "one-third mush and
two-thirds Eleanor."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 09:25:37 1999
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References: <3.0.1.32.19990627205852.00699c7c pop.mindspring.com> from Jed
 Rothwell at "Jun 27, 99 08:58:52 pm"
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:16:08 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC QWERTY controversy
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>Jed wrote:
>> John Logajan thinks the qwerty keyboard is no worse than Dvorak and other
>> arrangements.
>
>I simply believe that experimental results trump theory.
>
>Dvorak et al had wonderful theories why the QWERTY keyboard was
>bad, but in experimental tests, equal training on QWERTY versus
>equal training on Dvorak had similar results.  There was no
>benefit to Dvorak over QWERTY.

***{John, what you are saying is illogical. QWERTY was designed to
deliberately slow typists' fingers down, to prevent key jams on the old
style, mechanical typewriters. The idea was that, by forcing people to type
inefficiently, they would actually, on average, type *faster*--and they
did, on the mechanical machines. But it makes no sense that equally
experienced typists, both using an electronic machine--e.g., a computer
keyboard--would be equally fast if one used QWERTY and the other used
Dvorak. Under such conditions, the Dvorak should be faster, because key
jams are not possible on electronic machines. I would suspect, therefore,
that the experiments to which you refer were conducted on the old-style,
mechanical typewriters. If, however, they were conducted on electronic
keyboards, then it is a very interesting result indeed! --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Experiment 1, Theory 0.
>
>
>--
> - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
> - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
> -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 09:43:34 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC QWERTY controversy
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John Logajan writes:

>I simply believe that experimental results trump theory.
>
>Dvorak et al had wonderful theories why the QWERTY keyboard was
>bad, but in experimental tests, equal training on QWERTY versus
>equal training on Dvorak had similar results . . .

I believe experiments trump theory too, but these experiments are a harder
than they look, and the results are not clear-cut. It is not unlike cold
fusion -- it takes a great many experiments before you can really judge
what is happening. Experiments with animals, people, learning, ergonomics
or psychology are notoriously difficult. They require a great many trials
and much independent verification -- many more than physics or chemistry
experiments. Results are statistical rather than absolute. I do not know
the full story of the Dvorak tests but I doubt that sufficient independent
testing has been done to thoroughly test the hypothesis. I think it would
be extremely difficult to devise a proper test because you would have to
follow hundreds of full-time typists (secretaries) for years and measure
average typing speed and accuracy.

Statements like this:

	With the Dvorak keyboard, a typist can type about 400 of the
	English language's most common words without ever leaving the
	home row. The comparable figure on QWERTY is 100 . . .

. . . are firmly grounded in linguistics, and beyond dispute. This is not a
"wonderful theory;" it is a prosaic statement of fact. The question is:
does leaving the home row make a difference or not? That is difficult to
establish. It is a question for ergonomics (human engineering) experts. It
would certainly reduce reaching and other finger motion which contributes
to CTS. The treatment for CTS consists of wearing a slint which makes it
very difficult to type, and forces wrist and hand motion instead of
reaching with the fingers. (Perhaps this treatment is inneffectual.)

Many of the discoveries and generalizations of linguistics are: 1. Well
established; and 2. Useless. The field was established to improve the
teaching of foreign languages, but as most linguists will admit, it has had
little impact. At least, the linguists I studied with 20 years ago admitted
this. Actually, they generally agreed that language training standards
worldwide are abysmal. I think so!

Some say that "applied linguistics" is a contradiction of terms. I think
recent rapid improvements in voice-input typing are the first practical
contribution in many decades.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 09:59:05 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC QWERTY controversy
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Mitchell Jones writes:

>***{John, what you are saying is illogical. QWERTY was designed to
>deliberately slow typists' fingers down, to prevent key jams on the old
>style, mechanical typewriters.  The idea was that, by forcing people to type
>inefficiently, they would actually, on average, type *faster*--and they
>did, on the mechanical machines. But it makes no sense that equally
>experienced typists, both using an electronic machine . . .

That is unfair to Sholes. I would say the idea was to allow frequently used
key combinations to fall back and clear in time. For example, with the "TH"
combination, "T" would fall clear before "H" struck the platen. This had
the unfortunate side effect of slowing typists fingers down, but it was the
best technical compromise at the time.

In any case, Logajan is perfectly correct in saying that if experiments
show no actual difference between qwerty and Dvorak, then logic or illogic
are irrelevant. Whether it "makes sense" or not, facts are facts. Biology
is notoriously resistant to human logic, and language often defies prediction.

However, I suspect the ergonomic studies may not be sufficient.


>I would suspect, therefore,
>that the experiments to which you refer were conducted on the old-style,
>mechanical typewriters. If, however, they were conducted on electronic
>keyboards, then it is a very interesting result indeed!

Most of the experiments were conducted in the 1940s with mechanical
typewriters I believe, but by that time the keyboard actions were so
improved they could keep up with any typing speed. The existing world speed
record, by a French woman, was established on a mechanical typewriter, as I
recall. I do not think it will ever be beaten, as typing will soon be a
dying art like Morse telegraphy.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 10:20:25 1999
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From: e lewis <elewis1 hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: new articles on my site
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 10:16:14 PDT
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I already put in on a website:  http://207.225.33.111/radiation.html

But what I'll do now is just try to get links to it.  Thanks, Ed


>From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: new articles on my site
>Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 07:32:00 -0400
>
> >Dear Vorta,
> >
> >I wanted to talk about new articles on my site for people to look at.
> >
> >I think I discovered an effect of radioactivity stimulating radioactivity
> >from a cell two years ago.  I tried to publish articles about this, but 
>they
> >haven't gotten published, but it is a little similar to what Conte 
>recently
> >reported.  A radioactive object near an electrolysis cell seemed to 
>promote
> >radioactivity from the cell a significantly.
> >
> >Have other people noticed this effect?  ed
>
>Why don't you just copyright your paper and put it on the Vortex or a
>webpage.  If any publisher wants to put it into print, they still have to
>ask you.  If you sit on it, no one will know about it, and it will go 
>stale.
>
>Knuke
>
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
>


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 10:58:14 1999
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At 05:20 PM 6/26/1999 -0400, Michael T Huffman wrote:
>The MITRE program is an example that was mentioned earlier.  It is a
>firewall written for the Air Force.  There is no doubt in my mind that the
>Air Force has put back doors into this program....

   For the record, first, this is not a firewall. It is a version of NT
configured to be secure out of the (CD) box.  As shipped, NT is configured
for ease of installation and use.  We want it configured to be as secure as
possible and still usable.  You can configure your NT system the same way,
just be prepared to spend most of a day doing it.  (Actually more than
that, if you have to do verification.)  Since what is installed is actuall
COTS (commerical off the shelf) software, both from Microsoft and other
sources, there are no added back doors.

   Of course, the other side of this is that we have to keep an eye open
for newly discovered security holes and threats.  (The most recent
discovery, by eEyes, doesn't affect our version because IIS is not part of
it.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 10:59:16 1999
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Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 13:54:54 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC QWERTY controversy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990628125715.007af100 pop.mindspring.com>
References: <v04011702b39d4d631e67 [207.8.67.30]>
 <199906281546.KAA23301 mirage.skypoint.com>
 <3.0.1.32.19990627205852.00699c7c pop.mindspring.com>
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I wrote:

>That is unfair to Sholes. I would say the idea was to allow frequently used
>key combinations to fall back and clear in time. For example, with the "TH"
>combination, "T" would fall clear before "H" struck the platen.

The point is, the "T" would fall at a steep angle away from the path of the
rising "H." The improvement was intended to come from geometry, not from
the time delay between keystrokes, although the delay also helped. Many
people nowadays believe that the keys were separated to impose the timing
delay. (Michel Jones apparently believes that.)

Years later, machine tools improved to the point where a precise, small
separation in geometry could be maintained, and springs and lubrication
improved to pull the falling T rapidly out of the way, so that T could be
placed next to H.

This may seem like a trivial discussion, unrelated to cold fusion, but I
think it holds important lessons for cold fusion experimentalists:

The devil is in the details. Tiny improvements can make huge differences.
Kludges, trade-offs and compromises must be made.

A marginal technology must be improved by every method you can think of,
even methods which later cause problems. You hope that someone in the
future will fix a weakness that you have knowingly and unavoidably build
into the machine. This is how we ended up the Y2K crisis and
graphite-moderated fission reactors in Chernobyl.

A marginal, impractical machine can open up a market, and set the stage for
a better model. The first Remington typewriter printed capital letters
only, and you could not see the paper until you finished typing. Only 5,000
Model 1 typewriters were sold. I doubt Remington made much profit on them,
but I'm sure their engineers and production line people gained invaluable
hands-on experience. This set the stage for the Model 2 in 1878, which had
upper and lowercase letters, and which was far more practical. It sold like
hot cakes, and triggered a revolution in office mechanization which
continues to the present day.

You cannot wait for the machine to be perfected before you sell. Yes, they
should have held off a little longer on those graphite-moderated reactors,
but people must have electricity, and Russian coal-fired power plants are
not exactly benign. It is a lot easier to find fault in retrospect.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 11:13:41 1999
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At 09:43 PM 6/27/1999 +0100, Cornwall RO wrote:
>Knuke (or Mike?)
>Very informative and worrying. What do you think of linux? It needs to
>break that scalability barrier to compete at the top end and needs more
>features (easy setup, more drivers) for home use. Keep meaning to install
>it and give it a go.

    By all means, install it if you have the disk space. (And if you don't,
a good large capacity disk is under $200.)  I have Red Hat 5.2 installed at
home, and the (dual) boot process into 95 is significantly faster than
without Linux.  If the Microsoft Anti-trust trial forces Microsoft to sell
Word, Excell, and Powerpoint for Linux, Microsoft would quickly be out of
the (high-end) operating systems business.  (In other words, the only
reason to install Windows would be to play games.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 11:46:02 1999
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From: Ross Tessien <tessien oro.net>
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>	Then, if it is so repeatable, and so scaleable, and so
>	commercially viable, then why isn't Case just building a big one
>	and boiling water and hooking it up to a steam turbine?
>
>He has been trying to do that for a year, with no success so far. Is
>obviously not easily repeatable.

OK.  I thought from the SRI replication and comments here and on the video
that it WAS easily repeatable.  Obviously I haven't paid close enough
attention.

>We have no idea whether the thing would be cost-effective. That depends
>upon the operating temperatures and the useful lifetime of the catalyst. It
>is much too early to judge cost-effectiveness.

This is fine and understandable, but in that this is the case, then Case
should not have been quoted on the video as talking anything about "wanting
to build a mega watt power reactor in 2 or 3 years" or whatever his exact
words were on the video you guys put together.

He didn't sound credible as far as that statement was concerned, and this
discussion brings out that he had no business making any assertions along
those lines.  If there are important technical unknowns, then projections
to scale up (even if he thinks he can, or might be able to), shouldn't have
been included.  It was enough to just show that his device was producing He.

Don't mis-understand, I think that the video was an excellent one and I am
very glad you guys made it (heck, I bought 30 of them to hand out).  But,
it is damaging to the good content to have poor content included.  The two
things that stood out as "could have made it much better", would have been
to not place quite as much emphasis on Case's stuff due to it being so new
(and definitely Case's  opinion as to ramp up to "megawatt" power plants
shouldn't have been included).  The second was the use of Scotty and
analogy to star trek and science fiction.  

This is science, and it doesn't sway people to explain away that it is
unbelievable.  All you need do is explain what IS.  The past attacks are
part of what is.  And the present results which contradict the attacks are
part of what is.

In the end, observation and nature always win, so by showing the
observations that are credible, the skeptics are ignored by those with open
minds.  

Put another way, in the future it is likely you will make yet another video
that will be even better and show even better experiments and or devices.
When you do, the audience should be assumed to be open minded already.
Otherwise, they wouldn't be taking the time to look at the video.  

Well, this is too much already so I'll sign off.

rt



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 12:27:24 1999
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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199906281920.OAA26242 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC QWERTY controversy
In-Reply-To: <v04011702b39d4d631e67 [207.8.67.30]> from Mitchell Jones at "Jun 28, 99 11:16:08 am"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 14:20:40 -0500 (CDT)
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Mitchel Jones writes:
> But it makes no sense that equally
> experienced typists, both using an electronic machine--e.g., a computer
> keyboard--would be equally fast if one used QWERTY and the other used
> Dvorak.

It doesn't make sense if you accept that Dvorak's theory encompassed
all limiting aspects of typing and substanitally improved upon them
all.

That's why experiment is better than theory, because it can point
out that you may have forgotten a detail or two, or underestimated
its influence.

Proponents of Dvorak keyboards need more than theory at this point
because performance tests indicate no significant difference.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 12:44:26 1999
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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199906281942.OAA26472 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC QWERTY controversy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990628124052.007ab2f0 pop.mindspring.com> from Jed Rothwell at "Jun 28, 99 12:40:52 pm"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 14:42:26 -0500 (CDT)
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Jed wrote:
> Experiments with animals, people, learning, ergonomics
> or psychology are notoriously difficult. They require a great many trials
> and much independent verification -- many more than physics or chemistry
> experiments. Results are statistical rather than absolute. I do not know
> the full story of the Dvorak tests but I doubt that sufficient independent
> testing has been done to thoroughly test the hypothesis. I think it would
> be extremely difficult to devise a proper test because you would have to
> follow hundreds of full-time typists (secretaries) for years and measure
> average typing speed and accuracy.

Any studies are difficult when the differences are small.  Dvorak
proponents, or enemies of QWERTY, claim big differences.

Cold fusion is hard because the S/N is either low or the probability
of getting the right environment is low. But at least with CF, we
can forsee the possibility of improving the performance once the
parameters are fully defined.  In contrast, different keyboard
layouts which have such meager improvments that they are so far
impossibile to detect do not bode well for justifications to abandon
the current standard, nor for that matter, to trash the current
standard as inferior.


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 12:55:14 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: O.T.:RE: Case:  Just build it!
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 15:50:41 -0400
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Ross,

> This is fine and understandable, but in that this is the case, then Case
> should not have been quoted on the video as talking anything
> about "wanting
> to build a mega watt power reactor in 2 or 3 years" or whatever his exact
> words were on the video you guys put together.
>
> He didn't sound credible as far as that statement was concerned, and this
> discussion brings out that he had no business making any assertions along
> those lines.  If there are important technical unknowns, then projections
> to scale up (even if he thinks he can, or might be able to),
> shouldn't have
> been included.  It was enough to just show that his device was
> producing He.
>
In retrospect it is easy to be right.  Case was just starting his scale up
work.  He had seen the result many times.  He does not work fast.  The leak
problems can be really aggravating.

I thought that the megawatt projection was quite a leap.  I'd be happy with
a 100W model for the immediate future, but Les is not equipped to do
science, he wants to engineer.  Gene has tried to pursuade him to work on a
small demo model, given that it would lead to the kind of money he would
need for development of something commercially useful.
>
> This is science, and it doesn't sway people to explain away that it is
> unbelievable.  All you need do is explain what IS.  The past attacks are
> part of what is.  And the present results which contradict the attacks are
> part of what is.

Different people have different reactions to associating science to science
fiction.  The old saw about science fiction becoming science fact holds some
truth, largely because science fiction writers (like Jeff Kooistra) often
make a good effort to learn science.

The video was intended to have mass appeal.  Most people's depth of
understanding about material science or calorimetry issues, for instance, is
miniscule.
>
> In the end, observation and nature always win, so by showing the
> observations that are credible, the skeptics are ignored by those
> with open
> minds.

You are certainly right.  However, people live in social reality, which is
many layers of perception from the physical world.
>
> Put another way, in the future it is likely you will make yet
> another video
> that will be even better and show even better experiments and or devices.
> When you do, the audience should be assumed to be open minded already.
> Otherwise, they wouldn't be taking the time to look at the video.

That is our hope.  There is much footage that was not used from the
interviews that I would have like to use.  I am fascinated by the personal
trials.  I think a multi-part series explaining in depth the
political/academic controversy, ther materials issues (once they are
understood better), calorimetry, and most importantly, why scientific proof
is not at all as simple as is generally assumed.  That last item has
certainly been a learning experience for me over the past couple of years.

I don't think we can ever have really mass appeal.  Science, to most people,
is a way to explain why the new consumer appliance was available this year
and not last year.  But there are many millions who wish to grasp physical
reality.

Ed Wall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 13:01:37 1999
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References: <v04011702b39d4d631e67 [207.8.67.30]> from Mitchell Jones at
 "Jun 28, 99 11:16:08 am"
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 14:57:48 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC QWERTY controversy
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>Mitchel Jones writes:
>> But it makes no sense that equally
>> experienced typists, both using an electronic machine--e.g., a computer
>> keyboard--would be equally fast if one used QWERTY and the other used
>> Dvorak.
>
>It doesn't make sense if you accept that Dvorak's theory encompassed
>all limiting aspects of typing and substanitally improved upon them
>all.
>
>That's why experiment is better than theory, because it can point
>out that you may have forgotten a detail or two, or underestimated
>its influence.
>
>Proponents of Dvorak keyboards need more than theory at this point
>because performance tests indicate no significant difference.

***{You can't make that claim unless you know of a performance test that
compared Dvorak to QWERTY using instruments on which key jams were
impossible--e.g., on computer keyboards. Do you? --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>--
> - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 13:13:21 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ross Tessien <tessien oro.net>
Subject: Re: O.T.:RE: Case:  Just build it!
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>I don't think we can ever have really mass appeal.  Science, to most people,
>is a way to explain why the new consumer appliance was available this year
>and not last year.  But there are many millions who wish to grasp physical
>reality.

When I walk into a room of investors, I take with me a small bottle of D2O.
 I let them know that this little bottle of D2O could power their car for
100,000 miles down the road if they could burn it the way the sun does.

They are immediately interested.

The reason:

A)  I told them that their cars wouldn't need a gas tank.  They would no
longer need to stop in a gas station once a week or more to fill up with
gas, spending ~$20 or more each time they do.

Result, I told them that this invention would change their lives in an
important way that they could relate to.

B)  I told them that the energy came from burning it like the sun does.
The sun is our friend, and no one jumps to the next step to assert that
this is a "bad" nuclear reaction.  Instead, it is a "good" fusion reaction,
and they either don't make the connection, or if they know enough to make
the connection they also know enough to understand the difference between
the dangers of fission power plants and fusion power plants.

Time and again, it works beautifully and everyone is intrigued.  Either
they think I am a nut, or they want to know more.  The more they know, the
more they want to know is how it works out.  But when you tell them about
how you are going to change their daily lives, that is the important thing
they want to hear.  They don't care too much about how we accomplish it, I
agree.

In any case, there is room for another video that describes the
controversy.  But, you should wait until you understand what is going on
and until the reactions can be controlled and repeated with 100 percent
confidence.  ie, until main stream understands and accepts what is going
on.  This won't be too much longer I don't think.

rt


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 13:18:40 1999
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Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:18:33 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC QWERTY controversy
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At 11:16 AM 6/28/1999 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>***{John, what you are saying is illogical. QWERTY was designed to
>deliberately slow typists' fingers down, to prevent key jams on the old
>style, mechanical typewriters. The idea was that, by forcing people to type
>inefficiently, they would actually, on average, type *faster*--and they
>did, on the mechanical machines. But it makes no sense that equally
>experienced typists, both using an electronic machine--e.g., a computer
>keyboard--would be equally fast if one used QWERTY and the other used
>Dvorak. Under such conditions, the Dvorak should be faster, because key
>jams are not possible on electronic machines. I would suspect, therefore,
>that the experiments to which you refer were conducted on the old-style,
>mechanical typewriters. If, however, they were conducted on electronic
>keyboards, then it is a very interesting result indeed! --Mitchell Jones}***

   The goal of the key arrangement on the querty keyboard was to have keys
for common digraphs to hit the platen from different directions so that if
struck rapidly, they would not stick.  As a result of this, the querty
keyboard has several significant advantages for fast typing:  As I remember
it, the most common digraphs involving adjacent keys on the querty keyboard
are er, ed, tr, io, gh, and ds.  Not exactly amogn the top ten.  So when
you are touch typing on a querty keyboard you seldom have to hit adjacent
keys, and especially not with the same finger (The only common cases where
you use the same hand for successive keys are either index finger
combinations or the ed and lo diagraphs.) Also, Dvorak tried to put all the
most frequently used keys on the "home" row.  It turns out that most
typists type fastest when using keys on the top row, and slowest using the
bottom row.  If you want to improve on qwerty, create a keyboard map that
exchanges q and n.  (Actually, you want to rotate q to where n is, a to
where q is, n to where s is and s to where a is.  This is close to the
French azerty keyboard, but the French moved z to the top row because it is
used much more frequently in French.)

   This is not just theory for me.  At home I have several alternative
keyboard mappings including Dvorak, and I use several of them.  On a
standard German keyboard, I can type faster in German.  The same is true of
the French keyboard.  Entering oriental languages from the keyboard is
almost impossible using language standard keyboard mappings, but except for
Chinese hwere there is a very usable ASCII to Chinese mapping, it is not
possible at all on a querty keyboard.  I know from experience why Jed uses
voice input for Japanese.  ;-)  (I don't speak all the languages I have
keyboard mappings for, but one area I work on is character set standards,
so I need to be able to build character set tables.)

    In any case, I am fairly "fluent" with three keyboard mappings.  I
tried using Dvorak for a month, believing some of the propaganda.  Once I
got up to speed, I had many more character reversals with the Dvorak than
with the standard keyboard.  I figured that the slower speed with Dvorak
was something that would improve with time, but the fingering problems
would never go away.
(Again on the machine I use for this, I have a very nice program that
teaches typing with whatever keyboard you have mapped.  So no difference in
how I learned/practiced typing.  It was about ten years ago that I did the
Dvorak experiment, so I would have to retrain myself if I needed to use
Dvorak.  But I don't and won't since there is no benefit.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 13:40:41 1999
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Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:37:28 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Case:  Just build it!
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Ross Tessien writes:

	OK.  I thought from the SRI replication and comments here and on
	the video that it WAS easily repeatable.

I do not think Russ George or Mike McKubre has said the experiment is easy.
On the contrary, they accentuate the difficulties. Perhaps they even
exaggerate them to discourage competition. Les Case worked on it for many
years and he has been struggling to make a self-sustaining cell for the
last year, so he would not characterize it as "easy."


	Obviously I haven't paid close enough attention.

I do not know where you got the impression it is easy.


	This is fine and understandable, but in that this is the case,
	then Case should not have been quoted on the video as talking
	anything about "wanting to build a mega watt power reactor in 2
	or 3 years" or whatever his exact words were on the video you
	guys put together.

He wasn't "quoted" on the video -- he said that himself. ("Quoted" means we
say he says.) He has a right to his opinion. We did not tell him what to
say, and we do not necessarily agree with everything people said on the
video. Furthermore, even though the Case cell is difficult there is no
reason why a megawatt power reactor could not be built in two or three
years if we had money and the will to do it. Assuming the thing is real, of
course! All bets are off if Case and McKubre have both screwed up the
calorimetry. We will have to wait and see about that.

The atomic bomb and the Apollo rocket were difficult, yet they were built
on a tight schedule. I'm sure the Case cell would be easier to engineer
than a fission bomb, or a compact nuclear power reactor for a submarine in
1950. Microsoft will tell you it is extremely difficult to make a new
version of Windows. They are right. But they will have one out every two
years, like clockwork, despite the difficulties.


	He didn't sound credible as far as that statement was concerned
	. . .

I do not see why not. Just because the project is difficult than does not
mean it cannot be done. It means the project will be expensive and risky.


	. . . and this discussion brings out that he had no business making any
	assertions along those lines.

You seem to assume that the technical difficulties cannot be solved and
tough experiments cannot be made more replicatable. Many previous
innovations were more difficult than the Case experiment, yet they were
rapidly improved because people felt they were vitally important.


	If there are important technical unknowns, then projections to
	scale up (even if he thinks he can, or might be able to),
	shouldn't have been included.

There are always important technical unknowns, in any project. Otherwise it
would not be an R&D project; it would be another ho-hum production line.
With enough money any technical unknown can be fixed. Even the tokamak
reactor would work eventually. The Case cell is less speculative and it has
fewer unanswered questions than mainstream energy innovations like the
tokamak, oil shale, large-scale photovoltaic solar, or automotive fuel
cells. As long as physical resources hold up, anything can be done. We
probably could not have a terrestrial fuel cell economy based on palladium
and platinum because there is not enough of either precious metal. As
Appleby pointed out, global production of platinum would only be enough to
convert 15 percent of the automobile fleet to fuel cells. (Sci. Am., July
1999, p. 77)

As Arthur Clarke said:

	Anything that is theoretically possible will be achieved in
	practice, no matter what the technical difficulties, if it is
	desired greatly enough. It is no argument against any project to
	say: "The idea's fantastic!" Most of the things that have
	happened in the last fifty years have been fantastic, and it is
	only by assuming that they will continue to be so that we have
	any hope of anticipating the future.

	- Profiles of the Future, Chapter 1, 1963


	It was enough to just show that his device was producing He.

No, this will never satisfy the skeptics. They will never believe it, no
matter how much proof we show. The He is twice atmospheric concentration
now; we could make it 10 times or 1,000 times atmospheric concentration and
the skeptics would still come up with preposterous reasons to reject it,
just as they come up with astounding reasons to reject rock-solid,
indisputable flow calorimetry in other experiments.

Helium would not interest investors because there is no market for trace
levels of helium.


	Put another way, in the future it is likely you will make yet
	another video

We left enough material on the cutting room floor to make four more videos.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 14:07:36 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC QWERTY controversy
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Robert I. Eachus writes:

>   The goal of the key arrangement on the qwerty keyboard was to have keys
>for common digraphs to hit the platen from different directions so that if
>struck rapidly, they would not stick.

Right. That's what I have been trying to say.


  As a result of this, the qwerty
>keyboard has several significant advantages for fast typing:  As I remember
>it, the most common digraphs involving adjacent keys on the qwerty keyboard
>are er, ed, tr, io, gh, and ds.

Uh . . . I think people generally find it easier to strike adjacent keys on
musical instruments, or buttons & controls on machines. It would be an
advantage if they were adjacent. Maybe not though. Language can be complex,
and touch typing is a form of speech, like sign language.


>the French keyboard.  Entering oriental languages from the keyboard is
>almost impossible using language standard keyboard mappings, but except for
>Chinese hwere there is a very usable ASCII to Chinese mapping, it is not
>possible at all on a qwerty keyboard.  I know from experience why Jed uses
>voice input for Japanese.  ;-)

I use voice input for English only. Typing in Japanese is a piece of cake.
Much easier than writing by hand! I read in a magazine that many
20-something people type everything these days, even grocery lists. The
ability to write out the characters is atrophying. Not a minute too soon,
either. I sometimes wish the occupation reforms had trashed a thousand more
of the little buggers.

I do not know if there are any effective voice input programs for Japanese
yet. Dragon Systems says they have one:

http://www.dragonsys.com/news/pr/intl/jlang1116.html

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 14:09:07 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC QWERTY controversy
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J. L. wrote:

>Any studies are difficult when the differences are small.  Dvorak
>proponents, or enemies of QWERTY, claim big differences.

That's true. Good point. However ergonomics is difficult field. There *may*
be significant advantages hidden by the difficulties of the experiment. To
illustrate the difficulties, most studies show no significant differences
in the safety records of teenagers who take courses in driver education.
Studies which do show small differences show them fading away within ~5
years. But I would hesitate to abolish driver education programs!
Considering my daughter and other young drivers I know, I would find this
extremely unwise, no matter what the statistics indicate. Although I trust
the scientific method and I trust statistics, this is muddy science at best.

Insurance companies and state agencies have been withdrawing support for
driver education programs based on these studies.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 14:18:52 1999
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June 27, 1999

Vortex,

Except for those people who speed type for work: Qwerty or Dvorak does not have
much relevance to those who regressed to typing with a few fingers of both
hands including the thumbs on a semi hunt and peck typing style. And speed is
paced to the speed of thinking -- which tend to be leisurely.

What with extensive use of multi-function keys on computers, the fingers have a
hard time staying on their 'home' position anyway. And all those attempted
'correct as you go' finger movements and mouse actions add to the confusion of
trying to efficiently use all the fingers of both hands, Qwerty or Dvorak.
Include also those split keyboards and 'contoured to fit' designs.

-ak-




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>	Obviously I haven't paid close enough attention.
>
>I do not know where you got the impression it is easy.

Gene Mallove on the video.  The way the Case experiment was presented on
the video sounded as though it was working on demand.


>
>
>	This is fine and understandable, but in that this is the case,
>	then Case should not have been quoted on the video as talking
>	anything about "wanting to build a mega watt power reactor in 2
>	or 3 years" or whatever his exact words were on the video you
>	guys put together.
>
>He wasn't "quoted" on the video -- he said that himself. ("Quoted" means we
>say he says.) He has a right to his opinion. We did not tell him what to
>say, and we do not necessarily agree with everything people said on the
>video. 

Agreed, poor choice of words on my part.

My point was, you "quoted" him in the sense that you put him on your video,
making those statements.  Since I assume that your goal was to promote CF
as a real phenomena, I must then also assume that you put together what you
thought was the best of the evidence in favor of it.  You put the most
credible people (in your opinion) in front of your viewers.

So, having put Case in there at all says one thing.  Allowing him to make
those statements in your video makes another statement to the viewer.  And
then having Gene comment that the Case experiment provides the evidence
demanded by the main stream critics "in spades" as I recall, lends yet more
support to your confidence level in the Case experiment.

Put another way, the 40 orders of magnitude too much beta active isotopes
found by EPRI to me seems like "evidence in spades", not the Case experiment.  



>	He didn't sound credible as far as that statement was concerned
>	. . .
>
>I do not see why not. Just because the project is difficult than does not
>mean it cannot be done. It means the project will be expensive and risky.

I have no problem with difficulty.  The point is, if it works and can be
replicated within a short time, then it should be possible to build a
larger version of the same thing in an equivalent time ie, more of the same.

If for some reason the way it works changes with scaling, then bets are
off, but that brings in a question as to whether or not it is really
working.  ie, if the energy produced is in the mud and stays there when you
ramp up the size of the thing, then maybe you had mud in the first place.


>
>	If there are important technical unknowns, then projections to
>	scale up (even if he thinks he can, or might be able to),
>	shouldn't have been included.
>
>There are always important technical unknowns, in any project. Otherwise it
>would not be an R&D project; 

Jed, I am a ME with a lot of experience putting new things into operation.
Of course it isn't easy, I all too well understand this.  But, when there
are technical unknowns, you say as much when you are talking to people
about it.

The video led me to conclude that the Case experiment was repeatable and
that it worked on demand at producing He (and I know a bit about what is
going on, so you can imagine what people think that know nothing about what
is happening in the CF arena)

Hence, I thought that he just needed to build a bigger one of the same in
order to get consequential amounts of heat.

Now I learn that the experiment doesn't work everytime, and that it is in
fact difficult to get it to work and even produce He.  This puts it right
back down in the arena of PF and other devices.  In the video, it was
spoken about as though it had broken through the technical barriers
already, and simply needed to be scaled up.

IOW, Case said that he needed to get the catalyst to work for months to be
commercially viable.  The implication was that it worked reliably, for
shorter periods of time.  Now, I understand that it doesn't even work
reliably, which is counter to the opinion I was given by the video.  





>	It was enough to just show that his device was producing He.
>
>No, this will never satisfy the skeptics. 

Jed, you don't have to satisfy the skeptics.  You have to convince the
potential proponents to invest their money.  Forget about the skeptics and
focus on the open minded investors.  They are completely willing to discard
what physics skeptics say if they are given a reason to do so.

It was enough, for investors, to see yet another counter example to what
the skeptics are telling them.  By producing a litany of PhD physicists who
say something is going on from personal experience, which is COUNTER TO the
comments by the PhD skeptics who have NOT done the experiments, the
investors faced with this resort in their minds to Kuhn, and concepts about
scientific revolutions, and they invest the money.  It was sufficient to
put Case in there as yet one more counter example.  But by allowing him to
overstate his particular project, you weakened the comments of all of the
other excellent people on that video (IMO) such as McKubre, Miley, Storms,
PF, ..........etc.



They will never believe it, no
>matter how much proof we show. The He is twice atmospheric concentration
>now; we could make it 10 times or 1,000 times atmospheric concentration and
>the skeptics would still come up with preposterous reasons to reject it,

So what?  Who cares?   You should quit caring.

Investors don't care one iota about all that.  Investors are what the CF
industry needs.  The skeptics are powerless today, to stop the advancement.
 They had their chance, but the CF proponents didn't quit, and the amount
of work is increasing.

The skeptics are dinosaurs.  they are old fossils ignorant of what is
happening.  You should just treat them as the ignorant masses and move
forward describing the things that are working to the people to whom such
an explanation matters...........investors.

You put the word out to them, and we will get the work done with your help.
 Forget the skeptics.  You bring that up all the time.  They don't exist in
my realm and so I get investors to put money in.

rt

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 15:05:43 1999
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Dear Vo,
I am currently building my system. I have one subsystem complete and that
is the circulation system. The heat exchanger is off an old fridge, the
pump is a car washer motor. The next subsystem to build is the electronics
which will be straight forwards.

I have a question. I have a simple model for a steady state heat
conduction (keep it very simple at this stage I just want ballpark). I
reckon that a small fleck of matter, cylindrical, 10um long, 1um radius,
with a 1K temp difference between it and it environment would take about
10^-15sec to equibriate. Okay, I've made a mistake, but lets say I'm a
million out. Even 10^-6 sec would be useful, the faster the better. Place
your bets please.

Heat capacity around 1Kj/KgK
Conductivity 20 W/mK
Ballpark figures for common materials.

Also I'm looking for a source of FeS2. I figure that if I can use what
they use in the recording industry (Fe2O3) as small needle shaped entities
(high magnetic aniostropy) this would help a lot. I would roast it in 
H2S to get FeS2 (yes, I'll use a fume cupboard and afterburner, then
scrubber, honest, if I'm not in a hurry :)

Another prep. method might be to ppt Fe(OH)3 by adding alkali to
Fe(III) salt. QUESTION. Can I control ppt easily to make my desired
small elongated particles. I imagine size control is easy, but to
make the process ppt anisotropically I'd need some kind of bias. May
be I could ppt in a solution with large molecules?
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 15:21:05 1999
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Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:16:19 -0600
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From: "Thomas N. Claytor" <claytor lanl.gov>
Subject: G75E
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Ed, 
I ran my magnet over a batch  (10g ~approx 500 grains) of used catalyst and
found 6 very magnetic particles. In fact, one looks kind of "rusty". 
Tom.



At 02:06 PM 6/27/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Michael T Huffman wrote:
>
>> Mike wrote:
>> >With all the talk about stuff absorbed and entangled in the fibrous
catalyst
>> >substrate, this doesn't work. You might pick up surface magnetic dust, but
>> >not anything seriously entangled in the fibers.
>> >
>> >Mike Carrell
>>
>> I guess I don't really know what this catalyst looks like, but I was under
>> the impression that it was a very small bead structure with a carbon core,
>> and a Pd coating.  If anything magnetic were inside the bead, a strong
>> enough magnet would pick up the whole bead, or maybe not I don't know, but
>> I'd try it.  It would take all of 5 minutes to check.  Ideally, I'd do
it at
>> the time of manufacture, before the Pd coating were put on, but that's not
>> possible with this lot.
>>
>
>I tried the magnet suggestion on my batch of catalyst and no sign of magnetic
>material is evident.  Indeed, I would not expect Fe, Ni or Co to be
present in
>the material in elemental form.  If they are there at all, they would be
>combined with carbon to form the carbides, which are not magnetic.
>
>What is the point to such speculations?  Even if magnetic material were
found,
>it would take years of study to determine its effect on the anomalous
>observations.  Meanwhile any person with a functioning imagination could
suggest
>hundreds of variables to study.  Right now, the focus is on getting the
effect
>to occur with some regularity, showing that the heat and helium result from a
>nuclear reaction, not from prosaic processes as have been suggested, and
finding
>money to explore the important variables which have some understanding behind
>them.  Help in this effort and you will be a hero.
>
>Ed Storms
> 
http://www.nde.lanl.gov/staff/claytor/claytor.htm
Thomas N. Claytor	Claytor lanl.gov
Los Alamos National Laboratory
ESA-MT, MS C914
Los Alamos NM, 87545
505-667-6216 voice
505-665-7176 fax

Shipping Address:
Thomas N. Claytor
Los Alamos National Lab
Receiving/SM 30
Bikini Atoll Rd
Los Alamos NM 87545
Attention: Drop Point 01S



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 15:39:44 1999
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We anticipate testing for tritium in the G75E material  in a somewhat
similar manner.
Tom. 

 


At 10:39 PM 6/27/99 -0800, you wrote:
>At 12:15 AM 6/28/99, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>[snip]
>... as it
>>happens, the amount of He-3 found in CF cells is often thousands of times
>>greater than the natural abundance, enough to be detected and quantified. I
>>believe that is what SRI has found, but they have not officially discussed
>>the results yet.
>
>This is a very significant finding, and far more indicative of a nuclear
>reaction, IMHO.  Of course there would be aliasing with DH to worry about,
>but probably readily resolvable?  A tritium alias would be no bother due to
>the fact it also would be an indicator of nuclear reactions taking place,
>as would Li3.
>
>Oops!  there is no such thing as Li3!
>
>BTW, testing for tritium, especially in the carbon, is a nearly trivial
>procedure used in many bio and pharmacology labs.  It, coincidentally
>enough, involves burning the sample (usually a tissue sample) in oxygen in
>a flat bottomed flask, which is then placed in a dry ice and acetone bath,
>or equivalent, to freeze the water to the bottom of the flask.  A few cc's
>of scintillating fluid is then pured into the flask and the water permitted
>to thaw and absorb into the scintillating fluid.  The scintillating fluid
>is then poured into a UV transparent plastic vial and placed in a conveyor
>belt or drum for automated counting.  Looking for tritium in burnable solid
>samples is very cheap and the procedure is very very sensitive.  You might
>be able to get a univeristy pharmacology lab to do it for next to nothing.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
> 
http://www.nde.lanl.gov/staff/claytor/claytor.htm
Thomas N. Claytor	Claytor lanl.gov
Los Alamos National Laboratory
ESA-MT, MS C914
Los Alamos NM, 87545
505-667-6216 voice
505-665-7176 fax

Shipping Address:
Thomas N. Claytor
Los Alamos National Lab
Receiving/SM 30
Bikini Atoll Rd
Los Alamos NM 87545
Attention: Drop Point 01S



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 15:49:01 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: G75E
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 22:46:47 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:16:19 -0600, Thomas N. Claytor wrote:

>Ed, 
>I ran my magnet over a batch  (10g ~approx 500 grains) of used catalyst and
>found 6 very magnetic particles. In fact, one looks kind of "rusty". 
>Tom.
[snip]
A thorough analysis of that 'one' might be interesting if none of the
unused ones are magnetic.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 16:03:40 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Subject: RE: Case:  Just build it!
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Ross,

I have posted brief reports on the NERL Case cell work to Vortex and in
several issues of IE.  Success has seemed imminent and we did have one brief
over temperature, well above 3*sigma for a well established baseline run
shortly before our first cell developed cracks.

>From my months of work on the Case cell, I conclude that it is rather
unfortunate that I did not witness Les Case perform the experiment with Gene
present.  All I have had is the lab notebook with that experimental data,
which seems to have vanished.  I have spoken with Les a few times about it.
All he seems to think is necessary is to do three protium purges before the
deuterium and to pump down the cell when it is hot.  However, he is a
chemical engineer.  I am an EE.  I wouldn't think of things that he would
consider too obvious to mention.  I have also consulted with McKubre, who
tells me that I need to imitate Case carefully.

The last several series of runs have concentrated on performing with a
temperature gradient across the catalyst bed.  Doing this makes it virtually
impossible to get stable temperature readings in the catalyst bed.  I tried
to get around this by having a long length of probe tip buried in the
catalyst, to no avail.  It seems to me that actual calorimetry is necessary
if we preserve the catalyst thermal gradient, also to obviate possible
artifacts from different heat conduction and convective properties of
protium and deuterium (which I consider inconsequential, but why not do the
best job possible?).

I have some misgivings about some impressions that can be gained by those
not familiar with the experiments from viewing the video.  I think if it
arouses interest, that is good, but 'caveat emptor' still holds, no matter
what material anybody views.  It was written to portray what was believed to
be, and is still believed to be, generally accurate information.
>
> If for some reason the way it works changes with scaling, then bets are
> off, but that brings in a question as to whether or not it is really
> working.  ie, if the energy produced is in the mud and stays
> there when you
> ramp up the size of the thing, then maybe you had mud in the first place.
>
As far as I know, nothing definitive can be said about Case's scaling up
work yet.
>
> >
> >	If there are important technical unknowns, then projections to
> >	scale up (even if he thinks he can, or might be able to),
> >	shouldn't have been included.
> >
At the time the video was made, we had data from SRI work and a very excited
Les Case.  To view the Case cell as a likely future technology was not
unwarranted, and still is not, but we don't have the advantage enjoyed by
the life insurance salesman, who knows you are going to die.
>
> Now I learn that the experiment doesn't work everytime, and that it is in
> fact difficult to get it to work and even produce He.  This puts it right
> back down in the arena of PF and other devices.  In the video, it was
> spoken about as though it had broken through the technical barriers
> already, and simply needed to be scaled up.

Les Case seems to have quite a knack for it.  I don't know what his actual
success rate and if he told me, I wouldn't know what it really meant because
his method is really thermometry and I don't know how stable his baseline
data is.  McKubre says that he is not seeing the same sort of excess
temperature, but he does see some and it positively correlates with 4He.
>
> IOW, Case said that he needed to get the catalyst to work for months to be
> commercially viable.  The implication was that it worked reliably, for
> shorter periods of time.  Now, I understand that it doesn't even work
> reliably, which is counter to the opinion I was given by the video.
>
It may be reliable for Case.  I simply don't know.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 16:23:23 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Claytor, tritium and C14
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At 4:32 PM 6/28/99, Thomas N. Claytor wrote:
>We anticipate testing for tritium in the G75E material  in a somewhat
>similar manner.
>Tom.

Interesting.  It has occurred to me the same counters often will count C14
too, which is readily distinguished by the much more energetic (156 keV)
emissions and counted separately.  It is a wild speculation, with very low
probability, that C14 beta counts might be a signifiant variable, but it
might be had at little or no extra cost or effort.  It is interesting that
the supposedly over unity light hydrogen cells tend to have a radioactive
ingredient, K40, and that also the possibly catalytic effect of radioactive
stimulation of hydrogen loaded metals has been observed.   The C14 uptake
into the counting fluid is nominal, unlike the T2O water recovery, which is
nearly complete.  Still some indication of differences in C14 might be
important, and getting the numbers might just be a matter of flipping a
switch.

The Case cell seems unique for its lack of stimulation.  Maybe there is a
beta stimulated chain reaction of some kind happening, say a beta-photon
chain of some kind.  Wild speculation, but if the data can be had at no
cost, why not?



>>BTW, testing for tritium, especially in the carbon, is a nearly trivial
>>procedure used in many bio and pharmacology labs.  It, coincidentally
>>enough, involves burning the sample (usually a tissue sample) in oxygen in
>>a flat bottomed flask, which is then placed in a dry ice and acetone bath,
>>or equivalent, to freeze the water to the bottom of the flask.  A few cc's
>>of scintillating fluid is then pured into the flask and the water permitted
>>to thaw and absorb into the scintillating fluid.  The scintillating fluid
>>is then poured into a UV transparent plastic vial and placed in a conveyor
>>belt or drum for automated counting.  Looking for tritium in burnable solid
>>samples is very cheap and the procedure is very very sensitive.  You might
>>be able to get a univeristy pharmacology lab to do it for next to nothing.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Horace Heffner

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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To: Vortex

The carbon in Coconut Shells (assumed to be the activated carbon source)
runs about 40% on a dry weight basis. Iron (that is necessary for
chlorophyll synthesis, but not part of the chlorophyll molecule) should run
about 0.2%, or more. Potassium should run about 2% by weight, in the
activated carbon.

At the activation temperatures or at prolonged exposure to  500 K
temperatures, in carbon, the Iron (FeOx) should be reduced to Fe.

Seems to me that combustion, and ash analysis of the Activated Carbon would
be prudent.

This is SOP in Biomass Energy research. Surprising how much Silver there is
in the ash of  Cow Manure.  Look for the Silver Lining?    :-)

Regards,       Frederick

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"Thomas N. Claytor" wrote:

> Ed,
> I ran my magnet over a batch  (10g ~approx 500 grains) of used catalyst and
> found 6 very magnetic particles. In fact, one looks kind of "rusty".
> Tom.

Used catalyst! now that is interesting.   Are you going to have the rust
analyzed?

Ed Storms

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 18:29:12 1999
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Subject: Re: G75E
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Yes, the material is now separated, and ready for xrf.  But, we can't get
too excited about this since I have no baseline data prior to this run.
Tom.
At 07:21 PM 6/28/99 -0600, you wrote:
>"Thomas N. Claytor" wrote:
>
>> Ed,
>> I ran my magnet over a batch  (10g ~approx 500 grains) of used catalyst and
>> found 6 very magnetic particles. In fact, one looks kind of "rusty".
>> Tom.
>
>Used catalyst! now that is interesting.   Are you going to have the rust
>analyzed?
>
>Ed Storms
> 
http://www.nde.lanl.gov/staff/claytor/claytor.htm
Thomas N. Claytor	Claytor lanl.gov
Los Alamos National Laboratory
ESA-MT, MS C914
Los Alamos NM, 87545
505-667-6216 voice
505-665-7176 fax

Shipping Address:
Thomas N. Claytor
Los Alamos National Lab
Receiving/SM 30
Bikini Atoll Rd
Los Alamos NM 87545
Attention: Drop Point 01S



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 18:50:55 1999
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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: G75E
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To: Vortex

The U.C.I. G-32H catalyst is a 100%  High Surface Area Activated Carbon
derived from coconut shells.

I bet it is a lot cheaper than the 0.5% Palladium G75E catalyst, and will
probably serve well for bomb calorimeter combustion and subsequent Ash
Analysis.

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 19:31:58 1999
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC QWERTY controversy
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At 04:55 PM 6/28/1999 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Uh . . . I think people generally find it easier to strike adjacent keys on
>musical instruments, or buttons & controls on machines. It would be an
>advantage if they were adjacent. Maybe not though. Language can be complex,
>and touch typing is a form of speech, like sign language.

    But when you do need to use adjacent keys, the keys on modern keyboards
may end up being entered in the wrong order since they are so sensitive.
In fact, take "entered" as an example.  Three keystrokes with one finger,
and four with the adjacent finger.  (Your right hand gets to contribute the
n.)  Can you type entered fast without "fat fingering" the result.  I
almost always end up with an extra e before the t.  The middle finger is
still over the e when you reach for the t with the adjacent finger.  And
that is precisely what makes Dvorak bad for fast touch typing.  There are
too many combinations where you reach with a finger adjacent to one that
just struck a key.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 20:15:06 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Substitute Mercury for Palladium?
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 03:12:18 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 03:57:38 -0600, Frederick  Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>Seems to me, that H or D could "diffuse" and "load" into Hg easier than
>it could into Pd, thus forming HgHx or HgDx?
[snip]
Not only that, but there seems to already be an entire technology built
around it. See

http://www.analytik-jena.de/news/queck_e.html


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 20:32:58 1999
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June 28, 1999

Vortex,

I have celebrated Case's experiment and the replication results at SRI with George,
McKubre, Case and Tanzella.
The current catalyst substrate factor in the helium results have stirred me to look a
little into the substrate affair. Not so much for the helium conjecture itself but the
catalyst substrate.

I thought Tom Claytor's G75E observation interesting.

Several years ago, I bought 50 gms of carbon 'supported' 10% Pd powder. It did not
impress me as a uniform product as I noticed some metallic (Pd?) particles in the
powder. Like Carrell, I had imagined spherical carbon particles 'coated' with Pd --
something like those CETI spheres. Or if a powder, to be completely black.

Alfa Aesar has a separate section on catalysts. They brag as serving the platinum
group industry for over 170 years. Their catalog lists activated charcoal powder
based Pd particles of varying percentages.
The support base ingredient  is listed as 'standard activated charcoal, eggshell,
reduced and unreduced, and some with 50% water wet'. Eggshell?

Another supplier lists only activated charcoal properties as:
1. Ash-------------------------------4%
2. Acid solubles----------------------4%
3.Acid extractable iron (as Fe)------max 200 ppm
4. Extractable phosphates-----------max 3%
5. ph of a water extract   25 deg, C. -- 2

Clearly, and surprising, the carbon support is not pure carbon in some catalog
samples but good enough for industrial catalyst use. I wonder what G75E's
composition is.

I do not know what type of carbon support catalyst Case used. I wonder what it's
composition is and whether it is a factor in the results obtained in all experiments.

Is the composition of the catalyst support  a factor in replication results.
Or is it a factor that muddies up the Case type experiment replications in results or
discussions such as this Vortex.

-AK-

> Thomas N. Claytor wrote:
>
> > Ed,
> > I ran my magnet over a batch  (10g ~approx 500 grains) of used catalyst and
> > found 6 very magnetic particles. In fact, one looks kind of "rusty".
> > Tom.
> >
> > At 02:06 PM 6/27/99 -0600, you wrote:
> > >Michael T Huffman wrote:
> > >
> > >> Mike wrote:
> > >> >With all the talk about stuff absorbed and entangled in the fibrous
> > >>>catalyst substrate, this doesn't work. You might pick up surface magnetic
> > dust, but
> > >> >not anything seriously entangled in the fibers.
> > >> >
> > >> >Mike Carrell
> > >>
> > >> I guess I don't really know what this catalyst looks like, but I was under
> > >> the impression that it was a very small bead structure with a carbon core,
> > >> and a Pd coating.  If anything magnetic were inside the bead, a strong
> > >> enough magnet would pick up the whole bead, or maybe not I don't know, but
> > >> I'd try it.  It would take all of 5 minutes to check.  Ideally, I'd do
> > it at
> > >> the time of manufacture, before the Pd coating were put on, but that's not
> > >> possible with this lot.
> > >>
> > >
> > >I tried the magnet suggestion on my batch of catalyst and no sign of magnetic
> > >material is evident.  Indeed, I would not expect Fe, Ni or Co to be
> > present in
> > >the material in elemental form.  If they are there at all, they would be
> > >combined with carbon to form the carbides, which are not magnetic.
> > >
> > >What is the point to such speculations?  Even if magnetic material were
> > found,
> > >it would take years of study to determine its effect on the anomalous
> > >observations.  Meanwhile any person with a functioning imagination could
> > suggest
> > >hundreds of variables to study.  Right now, the focus is on getting the
> > effect
> > >to occur with some regularity, showing that the heat and helium result from a
> > >nuclear reaction, not from prosaic processes as have been suggested, and
> > finding
> > >money to explore the important variables which have some understanding behind
> > >them.  Help in this effort and you will be a hero.
> > >
> > >Ed Storms

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 20:48:06 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC QWERTY controversy
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 23:52:04 -0400
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Jed wrote:
 To
>illustrate the difficulties, most studies show no significant differences
>in the safety records of teenagers who take courses in driver education.
>Studies which do show small differences show them fading away within ~5
>years. But I would hesitate to abolish driver education programs!
>Considering my daughter and other young drivers I know, I would find this
>extremely unwise, no matter what the statistics indicate. Although I trust
>the scientific method and I trust statistics, this is muddy science at best.
>
>Insurance companies and state agencies have been withdrawing support for
>driver education programs based on these studies.
>
>- Jed

Oh Noooooo......

Less education for beginning drivers is the exact opposite of what should be
the policy, considering the consequences of operating any 2500lb mobile unit
in state of ignorance.  You should find out who funded those studies, and
what they're real intent was.

Typing instruction, on the other hand, could be abolished today, and the
money spent on other things.  For example, an average typing instructor
earns a base salary of $24,000 a year, say.  They teach 6 classes a day
consisting of 25 students.  That's a total of 150 students a year that learn
to type, and the cost is $24,000, not including the equipment, building
space, utilities, administration, retirement, insurance, and all the other
related overhead.  That cost to the taxpayer is *at least* $160 per year to
turn out a minimally trained typist, and the resulting student's ability to
type would still depend upon the student's desire, capabilities and so
forth.  If the taxpayer _gave_ a copy of a voice recognition program to
every student, they would no doubt save a ton of money, and the quality of
the output would be dependant on the program, not the user.

The money saved could be put toward teaching kids how to think and drive, etc..

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 20:55:36 1999
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Ross Tessien writes:

	Gene Mallove on the video.  The way the Case experiment was
	presented on the video sounded as though it was working on
	demand.

Well . . . that isn't too far wrong. So far it seems to work better than
bulk palladium and it seems to have better power density than nickel cells.
By the standards of CF it *is* working on demand! Going back to my favorite
analogy, you could say that in 1908 the Wright brothers were flying on
demand. Alone, in all the world, they stood a good chance of getting off
the ground and returning alive. When they arrived at a site it took them
only a few weeks to assemble and test their machines, and then on days when
there was virtually no wind and the motor cooperated, they flew without
incident except once then the plane crashed, the passenger was killed, and
Orville was nearly killed. That was an excellent flying record for 1908 but
it would not be satisfactory today. It did appear to be the foundation of a
practical form of transportation. Six years later, Sikorsky built a huge
multimotor airplane with a sitting room and a bathroom and he carried 6
passengers for 6 and a half hours nonstop over more than a thousand miles.
When you consider that accomplishment, and that rate of progress,  it is
not unthinkable that in three years someone might build a large pilot plant
based on the Case cells. If this seem outlandish to us, and unrealistically
soon, that is because we are living in a quiescent era with little real
progress.


	The video led me to conclude that the Case experiment was
	repeatable and that it worked on demand at producing He . . .

	Hence, I thought that he just needed to build a bigger one of
	the same in order to get consequential amounts of heat.

I think that is a fair summary of the situation. If we get some real talent
involved with this -- and someone like Sikorsky steps up to bat, we will
get a bigger one with consequential amounts of heat. The Wrights could
never have scaled up, but the way. They did not have the skills or the
right outlook. It took a different kind of genius, which Sikorsky had in
spades. Case has been floundering for a year trying to scale up. It may be
that he does not have the necessary skills. He is making the same kinds of
mistakes the Wrights made, particularly pinching pennies, not hiring
talent, and not going all out to attract money and talent.


	Now I learn that the experiment doesn't work everytime, and
	that it is in fact difficult to get it to work and even produce
	He.

I am surprised you just learned this now! You must have realized that Tom
Claytor, Scott Little and other talented people were not able to replicate,
so it is obviously not paint-by-the-numbers. But "difficult" is relative
quality, and so far it seems this method is easier than bulk Pd. Another 5
or 10 replications and we will see. If the experiment works at all, I think
we will see some know-how emerge. Ed Storms thinks people need to clean the
catalyst more rigorously and Russ George says the stainless steel container
has to be heated in a vacuum for several days.

It would help if people who have been working with similar catalysts in
conventional applications would become involved and pitch in, because 98%
of the problem space is the same for conventional chemistry as for CF
nuclear magic. (This is like saying that most of know-how involved in
building a fission implosion bomb relates to conventional explosives,
chemistry, timing circuits, and other technology unrelated to nuclear
physics *per se*.)


	This puts it right back down in the arena of PF and other
	devices.

No way! PF bulk palladium never produced helium and apparent heat so
smoothly in such large amounts. It was always sporadic. Unless the Case
results are a mistake, they are way ahead of anything P&F ever did.


	In the video, it was spoken about as though it had broken
	through the technical barriers already, and simply needed to be
	scaled up.

Yes, on the same scale as the 1908 Flyer, with roughly as many tough
technical problems before you get to Sikorsky. Miles ahead of the 1903
Kitty Hawk flyer (analogous to P&F). I think that is a fair analogy.


	IOW, Case said that he needed to get the catalyst to work for
	months to be commercially viable.  The implication was that it
	worked reliably, for shorter periods of time.  Now, I
	understand that it doesn't even work reliably, which is counter
	to the opinion I was given by the video.  

When it works at all, it does seem to go for weeks. I do not know if anyone
has even tried to run it for months. The calorimeters crap out before many
weeks pass.


	It was sufficient to put Case in there as yet one more counter
	example.  But by allowing him to overstate his particular
	project, you weakened the comments of all of the other
	excellent people on that video (IMO) such as McKubre, Miley, Storms, PF,
..........etc.

I do not think he overstated his position and I do not think he weakened
anything. For one thing, Case himself does not look impressive. Most people
will underrate him. He is a frump, as Mike Carrell says. Ask McKubre
whether he thinks including Case in the video was a mistake, and whether
Case cheapens the field or hurts other people's reputations. At this
moment, McKubre is the best person in the world to judge Case's
contribution. The last time I heard from him he said he thinks Case is
"brilliant." At this stage I have no reason to doubt that judgement, but of
course I cannot endorse it either. I must reserve judgement. More
replications are needed. I remain cautiously optimistic but noncommittal.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 21:05:58 1999
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Mike Huffman wrote:

>Less education for beginning drivers is the exact opposite of what should be
>the policy, considering the consequences of operating any 2500lb mobile unit
>in state of ignorance.  You should find out who funded those studies, and
>what they're real intent was.

I agree, based on my own recent personal experience with teenage drivers.
However, my experience is purely "anecdotal evidence" as scietists would
say, and facts are facts. If repeated studies with solid methodology show
no advantage to driver training, I suppose it should be cut back . . .

I believe I recall that the researchers who found these results were
connected with the insurance companies, which means they have every
motivation to promote safety. I recall they were expecting to find the
opposite results, which makes me think they may be right. I doubt there is
a nefarious plot to reduce auto safety, except in Montana . . . and the
other day they reimposed speed limits out there.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: Substitute Mercury for Palladium?
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: Substitute Mercury for Palladium?

Thanks for the tip, Robin. I came up short on Hg Hydride literature.

Regards,    Frederick


> On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 03:57:38 -0600, Frederick  Sparber wrote:
> [snip]
> >Seems to me, that H or D could "diffuse" and "load" into Hg easier than
> >it could into Pd, thus forming HgHx or HgDx?
> [snip]
> Not only that, but there seems to already be an entire technology built
> around it. See
> 
> http://www.analytik-jena.de/news/queck_e.html
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 22:22:36 1999
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Akira wrote:

[Snip informative text]

>2, Acid solubles................4%
>3, Acid extractable iron (as Fe)......max 200 ppm

It looks like the catalyst was preciously leached with acid (HCl?) to get
these numbers. That would take out the Potassium also.

I would think that United Catalyst would provide an ash analysis of the G75E
Activated Carbon Support.

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 22:23:36 1999
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>Yes, on the same scale as the 1908 Flyer, with roughly as many tough
>technical problems before you get to Sikorsky. Miles ahead of the 1903
>Kitty Hawk flyer (analogous to P&F). I think that is a fair analogy.

Guess they got things squared away a bit better by the 

1er Grand Prix D'Aviation De L'Aero Club de France, Circuit d'Anjou en 1912

So that was 9 years from first flight to a first race in France, guess we
are a bit behind in the race with this CF stuff.


Anyway, I admit I have not followed the Case stuff closely at all.  It
makes no sense to me.  At least PF type cells make some sense, load the
lattice..........

Anyway, I'll just keep on pushing forward.

rt

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 28 23:16:07 1999
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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
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Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC QWERTY controversy
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990629000015.006913e8 pop.mindspring.com> from Jed Rothwell at "Jun 29, 99 00:00:15 am"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Jed wrote:
> I believe I recall that the researchers who found these results were
> connected with the insurance companies, which means they have every
> motivation to promote safety. I recall they were expecting to find the
> opposite results, which makes me think they may be right.

It is not so surprising a result.  The alternative is not "no training",
the alternative is informal training -- which is apparently sufficient.

And after all, the biggest factor in safe driving is diligence, and
diligence comes from attitude (which is why female drivers are
actually safer drivers than male drivers.)

Who's going to have the biggest effect on kids' attitudes -- the
parents/family or some driver's ed teacher who is only doing it to
take home a few extra bucks.


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 04:35:21 1999
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From: "Frederick  Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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To: Vortex

The literature on adsorption of a gas on a solid cites adsorption heat
exotherms in the range of kiloergs/cm^2 for various gases and substrates.

Given that the UCI  G75E  (0.5% Pd on Activated Carbon) touts a surface area
of  about 1,000 meter^2/gram, the adsorption exotherm can get up to several
thousand joules/gram depending on the gas species and the
temperature-pressure history.

Couple the surface area of the Pd  to that of  the Carbon, and things get a
bit complicated, and interesting.

Regards,    Frederick

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what's the scoop about the hutchinson guy doing  tesla high-voltage
"levitations"?

he was featured on a learning channel show last night  

thanks

G'DAY!

Mike Connolly     Bulk Feed Tank Product Manager    GRAIN SYSTEMS, INC.
P.O. BOX 20     Assumption, IL   62510     
 PH: 217.226.4421     FAX: 217.226.4420     U.S. FAX:  800.800.5329
E-MAIL:    mconnolly grainsystems.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 05:03:56 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: G75E
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:08:18 -0400
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Tom wrote:
>Ed, 
>I ran my magnet over a batch  (10g ~approx 500 grains) of used catalyst and
>found 6 very magnetic particles. In fact, one looks kind of "rusty". 
>Tom.
>Shipping Address:
>Thomas N. Claytor
>Los Alamos National Lab
>Receiving/SM 30
>Bikini Atoll Rd
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
       ^
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I find this sort of thing mildly amusing.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 05:03:59 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC QWERTY controversy
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:08:20 -0400
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Jed wrote:
>I agree, based on my own recent personal experience with teenage drivers.
>However, my experience is purely "anecdotal evidence" as scietists would
>say, and facts are facts. If repeated studies with solid methodology show
>no advantage to driver training, I suppose it should be cut back . . .
>
>I believe I recall that the researchers who found these results were
>connected with the insurance companies, which means they have every
>motivation to promote safety. I recall they were expecting to find the
>opposite results, which makes me think they may be right. I doubt there is
>a nefarious plot to reduce auto safety, except in Montana . . . and the
>other day they reimposed speed limits out there.

I'm not suggesting it is a nefarious plot to reduce auto safety, but there
is a lot of pressure to reduce the amount of public money spent on schools
in general, and eliminating drivers' education programs would be an
especially poor choice.  I think they should compare the driving records of
comparable age groups to those of various European countries, and model the
educational efforts after the most successful programs over there.  This
would expand the "fact base", and give the social scientists an alternative
to cutting the education to nothing, which seems to me to be a ridiculous
idea.  You have to keep an eye on these scientists, Jed.  Some of them
aren't all there, if you know what I mean. 8)

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 05:18:50 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Subject: RE: G75E
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:15:56 -0400
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Vortex,

I examined some catalyst with a magnet that had run in a Case cell many
times with no excess temperature noticed.  A chunk roughly 1/8" is magnetic
enough to be dragged around the paper.  The surface of that piece is much
more pitted that the others in the sample.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas N. Claytor [mailto:claytor lanl.gov]
> Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 6:16 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: G75E
>
>
> Ed,
> I ran my magnet over a batch  (10g ~approx 500 grains) of used
> catalyst and
> found 6 very magnetic particles. In fact, one looks kind of "rusty".
> Tom.
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 05:57:02 1999
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----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Wall <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 6:15 AM
Subject: RE: G75E

Ed Wall wrote:


> Vortex,
>
> I examined some catalyst with a magnet that had run in a Case cell many
> times with no excess temperature noticed.  A chunk roughly 1/8" is
magnetic
> enough to be dragged around the paper.  The surface of that piece is much
> more pitted that the others in the sample.

This thread is beginning to sound like a gradeschool science class.  :-)

The iron is from CO or H2/D2 Reduced FeO or Fe2O3:

1,  CO + FeO  (200 C) ---->   CO2 + Fe

2, H2 + FeO  (200 C) ---->   H2O + Fe

3, 3 CO +  Fe2O3 (200 C)  ----->  3 CO2 + 2 Fe

4, 3 H2 + Fe2O3 (200 C) ---->   3 H2O + 2 Fe

If the G75E  WAS NOT Acid Leached, the iron is from the natural presence of
iron in the carbon/Biomass or Coal catalyst.  Unlesss you think that you
have turned carbon into iron, like the Aqua Chem folks think they did.   :-)

Regards,   Frederick


>
> Ed Wall
>
> New Energy Research Laboratory
> http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
> Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
> (603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Thomas N. Claytor [mailto:claytor lanl.gov]
> > Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 6:16 PM
> > To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Subject: G75E
> >
> >
> > Ed,
> > I ran my magnet over a batch  (10g ~approx 500 grains) of used
> > catalyst and
> > found 6 very magnetic particles. In fact, one looks kind of "rusty".
> > Tom.
> >
> >
> >
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 06:57:50 1999
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Mike Connolly wrote:
> 
> what's the scoop about the hutchinson guy doing  tesla high-voltage
> "levitations"?

He now has a web site at:

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Thinktank/8863/index.html

> 
> he was featured on a learning channel show last night
> 
> thanks

No worries, mate!

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 07:53:30 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: G75E
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:55:37 -0400
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Fred wrote:
>This thread is beginning to sound like a gradeschool science class.  :-)
>
>The iron is from CO or H2/D2 Reduced FeO or Fe2O3:
>
>1,  CO + FeO  (200 C) ---->   CO2 + Fe
>
>2, H2 + FeO  (200 C) ---->   H2O + Fe
>
>3, 3 CO +  Fe2O3 (200 C)  ----->  3 CO2 + 2 Fe
>
>4, 3 H2 + Fe2O3 (200 C) ---->   3 H2O + 2 Fe
>
>If the G75E  WAS NOT Acid Leached, the iron is from the natural presence of
>iron in the carbon/Biomass or Coal catalyst.  Unlesss you think that you
>have turned carbon into iron, like the Aqua Chem folks think they did.   :-)
>
>Regards,   Frederick

First Principles!  Every gradeschool science lab should have a small UV lamp
to wave over it, too.  You can identify a lot with that.  Then you could
break out those big clunky microscopes.  Beats guessing. 8)  Anybody got any
new catalyst to compare it with?  How is it packaged, just out of
curiousity, in baggies or plastic jars?  Is there a silica dryer capsule or
bag included in the packaging with the catalyst?

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 07:58:33 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: G75E
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:56:49 -0400
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Fred,
>
> The iron is from CO or H2/D2 Reduced FeO or Fe2O3:
>
> 1,  CO + FeO  (200 C) ---->   CO2 + Fe
>
> 2, H2 + FeO  (200 C) ---->   H2O + Fe
>
> 3, 3 CO +  Fe2O3 (200 C)  ----->  3 CO2 + 2 Fe
>
> 4, 3 H2 + Fe2O3 (200 C) ---->   3 H2O + 2 Fe
>
The problem I see with that explanation is that the iron would be
distributed uniformly, so all of the pieces would have about the same kind
of magnetic attraction.  I do not see any intermediate type pieces.  They
have either no magnetic attraction or they have enough to be dragged around.
And the attracted ones are pitted.  Can you think of a mechanism whereby the
FeO or Fe2O3 would concentrate in a small part of a coconut shell?

> Unlesss you think that you
> have turned carbon into iron, like the Aqua Chem folks think they
> did.   :-)

As a control, I did the same check with G75E that was never used in a Case
cell.  I found no magnetic response at all.  Wouldn't FeO and Fe2O3 be
responsive?


Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 08:04:06 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: G75E
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:02:39 -0400
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Knuke,

> How is it packaged, just out of
> curiousity, in baggies or plastic jars? 

Our 500g jar came with the catalyst in a bag with a twist-tie.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 08:13:42 1999
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Ah, so you're all out of ideas! So I'm outta here!
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 08:18:29 1999
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Ed Wall wrote:

> Fred,
> >
> > The iron is from CO or H2/D2 Reduced FeO or Fe2O3:
> >
> > 1,  CO + FeO  (200 C) ---->   CO2 + Fe
> >
> > 2, H2 + FeO  (200 C) ---->   H2O + Fe
> >
> > 3, 3 CO +  Fe2O3 (200 C)  ----->  3 CO2 + 2 Fe
> >
> > 4, 3 H2 + Fe2O3 (200 C) ---->   3 H2O + 2 Fe

Please complete the chemical lesson.

5. C + 2Fe = Fe2C

> The problem I see with that explanation is that the iron would be
> distributed uniformly, so all of the pieces would have about the same
> kind
> of magnetic attraction.  I do not see any intermediate type pieces.
> They
> have either no magnetic attraction or they have enough to be dragged
> around.
> And the attracted ones are pitted.  Can you think of a mechanism
> whereby the
> FeO or Fe2O3 would concentrate in a small part of a coconut shell?

The Fe can not concentrate and the Fe2C is not magnetic.

> > Unlesss you think that you
> > have turned carbon into iron, like the Aqua Chem folks think they
> > did.   :-)
>
> As a control, I did the same check with G75E that was never used in a
> Case
> cell.  I found no magnetic response at all.  Wouldn't FeO and Fe2O3 be
>
> responsive?

They are not present in the sample. The presence of H2 and D2 at 200°
eliminates the presence of iron oxides even if iron should form by a
nuclear process.  We should wait until Tom gets his sample analyzed
before speculating further.

>
>
> Ed Wall

Ed Storms

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 08:29:34 1999
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Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC QWERTY controversy
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At 12:00 AM 6/29/1999 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>I agree, based on my own recent personal experience with teenage drivers.
>However, my experience is purely "anecdotal evidence" as scietists would
>say, and facts are facts. If repeated studies with solid methodology show
>no advantage to driver training, I suppose it should be cut back . . .
 
    I think what it really says is most driver training programs for
teenagers are a waste of time.  I know that the one at our local high
school is almost a joke.  On the other hand, my daughter went to a training
course in Nashua, that was an entirely different matter.  It was started by
some people who didn't want other teenagers to repeat their mistakes.  The
classroom training was taught by a man paralyzed from the waist down in an
accident that occured when he was a teenager, and had been drinking.
Several of the driving instructors had visible scars.  The in car training
was all one on one (well, the first time in the car was a back seat
observation run), and the cars for most of the lessons were dual controls.
The final exam included a stretch on the local four lane divided highway,
etc. 

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 08:47:01 1999
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Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Ed wrote:
> >What is the point to such speculations?  Even if magnetic material were found,
> >it would take years of study to determine its effect on the anomalous
> >observations.  Meanwhile any person with a functioning imagination could
> suggest
> >hundreds of variables to study.  Right now, the focus is on getting the effect
> >to occur with some regularity, showing that the heat and helium result from a
> >nuclear reaction, not from prosaic processes as have been suggested, and
> finding
> >money to explore the important variables which have some understanding behind
> >them.  Help in this effort and you will be a hero.
> >
> >Ed Storms
>
> I don't know how you can get the device to function with greater regularity
> without understanding it better, and the tests that I proposed were given to
> help you reduce your expenditures in looking for material differences in the
> catalyst.  The Wittaker reference that I gave was to let you know that there
> was a mathmatical justification for the other suggestion that I made
> regarding doping the catalyst.

Yes, but the tests are best done with some logic.  Random guesses as to impurities
in the catalyst are not much help.  For example, do you know whether the
manufacturer adds impurities to the Pd when it is deposited in order to improve
the catalytic properties?  Do you know whether Pt is present in the Pd and at what
concentration?  These are the variables of interest to me, not the nonvolatile
impurities in the carbon.  These impurities are interesting because all of the
experience in the field indicates that Pd is the site of the action, not the
carbon.  Furthermore, we have no control over these impurities even if they are
important.  We take what is delivered and assume, because of the method of
manufacture, that the impurities are uniform.  This being the case, any variation
in behavior must be caused by subsequent treatment in the Case apparatus.  While
this assumption many not be valid, it is reasonable at the present time.

>
> When I was first told of this formula I didn't understand it, but now I can
> see how it might apply in this cell.  The formula, as I understand it now,
> was an extension on the usual formulas that can be found in today's texts
> that incorporated or accounted for the effects of EM pulses given off by
> radioactive decay that would allow for transmutation and fusion to occur
> under much lower input power levels than you see in today's reactors.  The
> reason that it was kept secret, and removed from subsequent publications,
> was that things like the production of gold, Tritium production, remediation
> of nuclear waste, and the enrichment of nuclear fuels would be possible on a
> tabletop basically, just like with the Fusor.

Where can I obtain more information about this process?  In all of my training in
nuclear chemistry, I have not seen evidence for this effect except for
transmutation caused by gamma radiation, as suggested by Paul Brown.

> It's not prosaic, well these days it might be, actually.  Platinum and gold
> have been found to be trace by-products of other cold fusion processes, and
> are well documented in the literature.  You've been at this game for a
> while, now.  You know all this stuff.  The P&F methods just don't work as
> well as some of the others, like lasers, and the Fusor.  Fred Sparber's
> designs just might solve all your funding problems, although I'd still add a
> small amount of U to the mix.  My suggestion regarding the Case cell, and
> any carbon nanotube structure cell would just be a bit safer for a heat
> producing device, that's all.  You don't have to try it.;)

While at LANL, we added uranium to a cell to see if its presence would produce
tritium.  The U had no effect except to plate UO3 on the anode.  Any solution to
our funding problems is welcome but I have stopped holding my breath.

Regards,
Ed Storms

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: G75E
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At 10:56 AM 6/29/99, Ed Wall wrote:
[snip]
>> Can you think of a mechanism whereby the
>FeO or Fe2O3 would concentrate in a small part of a coconut shell?

Maybe. The coconut shells are a byproduct from processing the nut and
juice.  The processing takes place in the tropics so it is not a big
stretch of the imagination that the processing machinery might be a bit
rusty.  Conjecture: it rubbed off from the processing machinery, probably
cutting blades.

The reduction reactions Fred Sparber suggests did not go fully to
completion making the FeC2 Edmund Storms suggests.

It is a bit of a stretch thinking this accounts for a large percentage of
granules having iron.

A more reasonable hypothesis is that the water pipes to the coconut
processing plant, or water storage tower, are highly rusted.  However, it
seems like the iron would be more uniformly distributed.  Perhaps it is,
and it is the reduction process that is not - the reduction tends to occur
on surfaces exposed to H2 convection.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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----- Original Message -----
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: G75E

Ed Storms wrote:


> Ed Wall wrote:
>
> > Fred,
> > >
> > > The iron is from CO or H2/D2 Reduced FeO or Fe2O3:
> > >
> > > 1,  CO + FeO  (200 C) ---->   CO2 + Fe
> > >
> > > 2, H2 + FeO  (200 C) ---->   H2O + Fe
> > >
> > > 3, 3 CO +  Fe2O3 (200 C)  ----->  3 CO2 + 2 Fe
> > >
> > > 4, 3 H2 + Fe2O3 (200 C) ---->   3 H2O + 2 Fe
>
> Please complete the chemical lesson.
>
> 5. C + 2Fe = Fe2C

Right, and 6,  C + FeO ----> CO + Fe etc.  Remember that Ed Wall is a EE
with a learning curve that goes straight up.  :-)
>
> > The problem I see with that explanation is that the iron would be
> > distributed uniformly, so all of the pieces would have about the same
> > kind
> > of magnetic attraction.  I do not see any intermediate type pieces.
> > They
> > have either no magnetic attraction or they have enough to be dragged
> > around.
> > And the attracted ones are pitted.  Can you think of a mechanism
> > whereby the
> > FeO or Fe2O3 would concentrate in a small part of a coconut shell?

Only if pounded VERY HARD by a Monkey.   :-)
>
> The Fe can not concentrate and the Fe2C is not magnetic.

Agreed. And from my sources the 100 to 200 ppm for Fe in the carbon
standard.
>
> > > Unlesss you think that you
> > > have turned carbon into iron, like the Aqua Chem folks think they
> > > did.   :-)
> >
> > As a control, I did the same check with G75E that was never used in a
> > Case
> > cell.  I found no magnetic response at all.  Wouldn't FeO and Fe2O3 be
> >
> > responsive?
>
> They are not present in the sample. The presence of H2 and D2 at 200°
> eliminates the presence of iron oxides even if iron should form by a
> nuclear process.  We should wait until Tom gets his sample analyzed
> before speculating further.

Yes.

Regards,    Frederick
>
> >
> >
> > Ed Wall
>
> Ed Storms
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 09:40:46 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: G75E
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:39:05 -0400
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Horace wrote:

> >> Can you think of a mechanism whereby the
> >FeO or Fe2O3 would concentrate in a small part of a coconut shell?
>
> Maybe. The coconut shells are a byproduct from processing the nut and
> juice.  The processing takes place in the tropics so it is not a big
> stretch of the imagination that the processing machinery might be a bit
> rusty.  Conjecture: it rubbed off from the processing machinery, probably
> cutting blades.

Well, okay, but I'd expect to have seen some in the virgin sample, and
didn't, but that could be a statistical or other artifact.
>
> The reduction reactions Fred Sparber suggests did not go fully to
> completion making the FeC2 Edmund Storms suggests.
>
> It is a bit of a stretch thinking this accounts for a large percentage of
> granules having iron.

A large percentage do not exhibit this seeming ferromagnetism.  Only a very
few, perhaps 1% exhibit any such effect, and they also have a lighter color
and a pitted surface, and, as far as I can see, are only in the samples
exposed to H2 and D2.  This may fit with Oriani's polyneutron theory, which
involves fission of massive isotopes of iron.

Of course, it is probable that a prosaic explanation exists.  Before
spending more than the hour or so I've spent, I'll wait for the xrf.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
http://www.infinite-energy.com   email:ewall infinite-energy.com
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Bow, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822   fax 224-5975

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 09:55:16 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: heat transfer
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>Ah, so you're all out of ideas! So I'm outta here!
>Remi.

There are ideas by the dozens here.  Maybe it is the problem definition
that is the problem.  Suggestions:


At 11:02 PM 6/28/99, Cornwall RO wrote:
>Dear Vo,
>I am currently building my system.

What kind of system?  What are the goals, theories, methods.


>I have one subsystem complete and that
>is the circulation system. The heat exchanger is off an old fridge, the
>pump is a car washer motor. The next subsystem to build is the electronics
>which will be straight forwards.


What is the design for these subsytems. What do they do?


>
>I have a question. I have a simple model for a steady state heat
>conduction (keep it very simple at this stage I just want ballpark).

What does the model represent?


>>I
>reckon that a small fleck of matter, cylindrical, 10um long, 1um radius,
>with a 1K temp difference between it and it environment would take about
>10^-15sec to equibriate.


This is not a simple problem to do realisticallly, because, due to the
extremely small size, thus high surface to volume ratio,  radiation plays
an important role.  Otherwise, you could simply use an ordinary FEA program
to do the calculation.


>Okay, I've made a mistake, but lets say I'm a
>million out. Even 10^-6 sec would be useful, the faster the better. Place
>your bets please.
>
>Heat capacity around 1Kj/KgK
>Conductivity 20 W/mK
>Ballpark figures for common materials.


You specified the size but not the density of your material.


>
>Also I'm looking for a source of FeS2.

[snip]

Should be available directly from a chemical supplier in Britain, or is the
problem access?  I have had that problem too.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Knuke
	Are you suggesting that radioactive decay creates RF signals (EMP)
or are you refering to gamma rays?

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	knuke LCIA.COM[SMTP:knuke@LCIA.COM]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Monday, June 28, 1999 1:44 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: Case & Arata
> 
> Ed wrote:
> >What is the point to such speculations?  Even if magnetic material were
> found,
> >it would take years of study to determine its effect on the anomalous
> >observations.  Meanwhile any person with a functioning imagination could
> suggest
> >hundreds of variables to study.  Right now, the focus is on getting the
> effect
> >to occur with some regularity, showing that the heat and helium result
> from a
> >nuclear reaction, not from prosaic processes as have been suggested, and
> finding
> >money to explore the important variables which have some understanding
> behind
> >them.  Help in this effort and you will be a hero.
> >
> >Ed Storms
> 
> I don't know how you can get the device to function with greater
> regularity
> without understanding it better, and the tests that I proposed were given
> to
> help you reduce your expenditures in looking for material differences in
> the
> catalyst.  The Wittaker reference that I gave was to let you know that
> there
> was a mathmatical justification for the other suggestion that I made
> regarding doping the catalyst.
> 
> When I was first told of this formula I didn't understand it, but now I
> can
> see how it might apply in this cell.  The formula, as I understand it now,
> was an extension on the usual formulas that can be found in today's texts
> that incorporated or accounted for the effects of EM pulses given off by
> radioactive decay that would allow for transmutation and fusion to occur
> under much lower input power levels than you see in today's reactors.  The
> reason that it was kept secret, and removed from subsequent publications,
> was that things like the production of gold, Tritium production,
> remediation
> of nuclear waste, and the enrichment of nuclear fuels would be possible on
> a
> tabletop basically, just like with the Fusor.
> 
> It's not prosaic, well these days it might be, actually.  Platinum and
> gold
> have been found to be trace by-products of other cold fusion processes,
> and
> are well documented in the literature.  You've been at this game for a
> while, now.  You know all this stuff.  The P&F methods just don't work as
> well as some of the others, like lasers, and the Fusor.  Fred Sparber's
> designs just might solve all your funding problems, although I'd still add
> a
> small amount of U to the mix.  My suggestion regarding the Case cell, and
> any carbon nanotube structure cell would just be a bit safer for a heat
> producing device, that's all.  You don't have to try it.;)
> 
> Knuke 
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 11:07:19 1999
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Run 7 is complete.  Alas, there is no cause for celebration.

This run employed Mizuno's own cathode materials (rewelded here) and a
quartz vessel.  These changes made no discernible difference in the outcome.

We drove the cell at several different voltages in a futile search for the
conditions that produce excess heat.

We used an independent current monitor on this run.  It matched the
Clarke-Hess average-current readings precisely.

We took some "action photos" of the cell in operation.
 
Read all about it at:

http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/run7.html



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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At 01:05 PM 6/29/1999 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>Run 7 is complete.  Alas, there is no cause for celebration.

    Worse, there is also no cause for dispair, other than at the amount of
work that needs to be done.

>This run employed Mizuno's own cathode materials (rewelded here) and a
>quartz vessel.  These changes made no discernible difference in the outcome.

    I'd rather say no significant difference, since the temperature
response time seems to have shifted.  (Or was that due to other changes?)

>We drove the cell at several different voltages in a futile search for the
>conditions that produce excess heat.

    I wouldn't call it futile.  There is  a very significant anomaly
visible in the data that seems to justify measuring at additional voltage
set points.  In particular, the data show an unusual relationship between
voltage and power.  If I calculate the cell resistance from the three data
points, I get 175 ohms, 134 ohms, and 94 ohms, so the cell resistance is
dropping with voltage, and dropping much faster than the voltage.  It does
make some sort of sense that this happens, but I am curious as to how much
lower you can go.  (I also note that there is a current wobble in the
lowest voltage setting.  Any guesses as to why?)

    I'd also like to know the gas evolution for the third voltage level.
If the multiplier is similar to the previous steps, you could have exceeded
your error bars.  Of course, the other, not insigificant possibility is
that the evolved gasses include CO2 from K2CO3 + H2O --> 2 KOH + CO2 or
more likely,
K2CO3 + WO3 --> K2WO4 + CO2 or K2C03 + SiO2 --> K2SiO3 + CO2.  An easy
check for this would be to pass some of the evolved gas over Na0H crystals.
This would also pull out any remaining moisture, so you might want to use
silica gel to keep those measurements separate.

    I know, I know, lots of suggestions from a bystander for you to do
extra work.  But isn't that why you post these experiments?

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 13:03:56 1999
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At 1:05 PM 6/29/99, Scott Little wrote:
>Run 7 is complete.  Alas, there is no cause for celebration.
>
>This run employed Mizuno's own cathode materials (rewelded here) and a
>quartz vessel.  These changes made no discernible difference in the outcome.
>
>We drove the cell at several different voltages in a futile search for the
>conditions that produce excess heat.
>
>We used an independent current monitor on this run.  It matched the
>Clarke-Hess average-current readings precisely.


It sounds like a good time to start making some reservations!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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***{Ed, I spent some time filling in the details that you left out of your
calculation, because your result struck me as intuitively implausible. When
the dust settled, I decided that your calculation was basically correct,
and I wound up much more open to the possibility that the Case cell may
actually work. For the benefit of others who may have considered the Case
cell to be as absurd as I did, those details are presented below.
Correction of any errors that I may have made is, of course, encouraged.
--Mitchell Jones}***

>Michael T Huffman wrote:
>
>> >
>> >Knuke,
>> >
>> >I have to admit to being out of my depth on this stuff.  Wouldn't Ed Storms
>> >or particularly Scott Little have found the U decay with his very sensitive
>> >method?
>>
>> I'm way over my head as well, but I have done some work with it so I know a
>> little about the measurement aspects.  No, Scott and Ed's measurements,
>> unless taken over a long period of time would probably not lead them to
>> think that there was anything significant in the samples if the amounts of U
>> were truly small, say 2ppb.  Even if the measurements were taken over time
>> there is a good chance that they might not see it for reasons I will explain
>> below.  It might not even be a radioactive product that is causing this
>> reaction, but this much I can tell you.  People, animals, insects, rocks,
>> plants, - everything, basically, in their natural states are comprised of a
>> large number of elements.  That is such a simple fact of life that I am a
>> bit surprised that anyone would need to be told this, but here goes.
>
>Let's examine some facts.  If uranium is the source of helium as has been
>proposed, then it is possible to calculated the amount of uranium that
>needs to
>be present.  Natural uranium contains two isotopes, U235 and U238.  A small
>amount of 234 is also present by this results from the decay of U238. Each
>decay
>produces multiple helium through a complex decay chain.  If we assume the
>daughter products are in equilibrium, the accumulation rate of helium can be
>calculated using the relationship  dN/dt = 0.69N/t where N is the number of
>atoms present and dN/dt is the rate of atom decay.

***{The expression dN/dt = 0.69N/t had me scratching my head, until I
figured out that the t on the right side of your expression refers to the
half-life of the substance, and hence is used differently than the t on the
left side, where dt = d[t] and t is simply the elapsed time. Here is the
mathematical journey I went through to reach that conclusion.

Let the half-life be represented by H and the elapsed time by t, both in
years. If P is the probability that one atom will disintegrate per unit
time, then P = .5/H, by definition, when t = H. But if t = 2H, then P = (.5
+ .25)/2H =.375/H. Thus the values of P drop off as t becomes larger than
H, and, therefore, the values of P will increase as t becomes smaller than
H, with the maximum value of P (call it Pm) occurring as t approaches
infinitesimally close to zero.

The implication of the above is that Pm = (-dN/N)/dt, or -dN/dt = PmN.
(Note: since dN is a negative number and Pm must be positive, dN has been
multiplied by -1.) Thus we have a simple differential equation which may be
solved by integration after the variables have been separated, as follows:

-Pmdt = dN/N, INT (-Pmdt) = INT (dN/N), which gives -Pmt = ln N + C.

If Ni denotes the initial value of N, then when t = 0, N = Ni. Plugging
these values into the last of the above expressions and solving for C, we
get: -Pm(0) = ln Ni + C, and so C = - ln Ni. Result: -Pmt = ln N - ln Ni,
or -Pmt = ln (N/Ni), or e^(-Pmt) = N/Ni. Therefore Nie^(-Pmt) = N.

By definition the half-life, H, is the time required for the value of N to
fall to Ni/2, so, substituting, we get: Nie^(-PmH) = Ni/2, which becomes
e^(-PmH) = 1/2, or ln (1/2) = -PmH, or PmH = -ln (1/2), or PmH = ln 2, or
PmH = .693. Thus Pm = .693/H, and, substituting back into -dN/dt = PmN, we
get -dN/dt = .693N/H.

The last expression, above, matches up very well with dN/dt = 0.69N/t, as
stated by you, if we ignore the sign difference and assume that t on the
right side refers to the half-life, H, and so I finally concluded that this
was the usage which you intended. (And, of course, after figuring that out,
I noticed that, next to "Half-life" in the table below, you had t in
parentheses. :-)

--Mitchell Jones}***

 This gives the equation He
>atoms/g natural U = 0.9928 * 6.02*10^23*8*0.69/(4.47*10^9*238) + contribution
>from U235.

***{My first reaction to the above was to try the direct approach. Based on
your info, the average number of alpha particles produced per uranium
disintegration is .99276(8) + .00718(7) = 7.99234. Assuming, again based on
your numbers, that 5x10^16 atoms of additional He are needed, it follows
immediately that our sample is going from Ni atoms to Ni-[5x10^16/7.99234]
atoms, which is Ni-6.256x10^15. Thus we have Nie^(-Pmt) = Ni-6.256x10^15.
Substituting ln 2/H for Pm, that gives Nie^[-(.693/H)t] = Ni-6.256x10^15.
Plugging in the average half-life of U238 and U235, which is
.99276(4.47x10^9) + .00718(7.04x10^8) = 4.44x10^9, we get:
Nie^[-(.693/4.44x10^9)t] = Ni-6.256x10^15.

Result: if we know the elapsed time, t, we can solve for Ni, the initial
number of uranium atoms in the sample. Plugging in 10 years, as per your
procedure, we get Nie^-(1.56x10^-9) = Ni-6.256x10^15, e^-(1.56x10^-9) =
1-[(6.256x10^15)/Ni], [e^-(1.56x10^-9)]-1 = -(6.256x10^15)/Ni.

Conclusion: Ni = -(6.256x10^15)/{[e^-(1.56x10^-9)]-1}

Unfortunately, my pocket calculator cannot handle the above. Since anything
to the zero power equals 1, it treats e^-(1.56x10^-9) as equal to 1.
Result: 1-1 gives a denominator of zero, which ain't kosher. Therefore, can
anybody number crunch this and get a meaningful answer?

--Mitchell Jones}***


>
>Isotope    Abundance    Half-life(t)    # He   # He atoms/U atom /year
>U235        0.718%      7.04x10^8 y      7          6.9x10-9
>U238        99.276%    4.47x10^9 y      8          1.2x10-9
>
>The amount of helium is 3.2 x 10^12 He atoms/ gm natural U/year with most
>coming
>from the U238.

***{First, let me see if I can verify your arithmetic:
(.9928)(6.02x10^23)(8)(.69)/[(4.47x10^9)(238)] +
(.00718)(6.02x10^23)(7)(.69)/[(7.04x10^8)(235)] = 3.1011x10^12 +
.12619x10^12 = 3.2272x10^12. Thus your result (3.2x10^12) is about right.

As for the reasoning underlying that calculation, well, based on the above
expression you are treating the number of alphas produced by a gram
molecular weight of a uranium isotope as equal to the number of atoms in
that gram molecular weight (AVO, for Avogadro's number) times the number of
He daughters produced by each atom that disintegrates (D) times Pm (as
proved above, Pm = .69/H) divided by the gram molecular weight of the
isotope (GMW). In other words: AVO*D*Pm/GMW. The idea, I guess, is that
since Pm represents the probability that one atom will disintegrate per
unit of time, AVO*Pm represents the number of actual disintegrations that
will occur per unit of time in a GMW of the substance, and if each
disintegration produces D helium daughters when all is said and done, then
AVO*Pm*D/GMW represents the number of He daughters produced per unit of
time per gram of the isotope.

It looks right to me, for the present purposes, since it is a conservative
calculation: i.e., it *overstates* the number of He atoms that will be
produced per gram of uranium. The overstatement arises because Pm is the
transition rate--i.e., the instantaneous rate of disintegration per unit
time--and as such is greater than the average disintegration rate per unit
of time, because the value of N declines with the passage of time. In other
words, the value of N starts at AVO and, in the first instant, multiplying
by Pm is correct. However, at the end of that instant, the value of N has
dropped by the number of atoms that disintegrated in the first instant, and
to predict the number of disintegrations in the second instant, you must
multiply Pm times the reduced number, rather than by AVO again. The average
value of N, therefore, is less than AVO except for the first instant, and
the correct multiplier would be the average value of N over the interval of
interest--that is:

(1/t) INT Ndt

= (1/t) INT [Nie^(-Pmt)]dt

= [Ni/(-Pmt)] INT [e^(-Pmt)](-Pm)dt

= [Ni/(-Pmt)] INT [e^(-Pmt)]d[-Pmt]

= [Ni/(-Pmt)][e^(-Pmt)]  + C)].

Thus if Na is the average value of N, we have:

[Ni/(-Pmt)][e^(-Pmt)]  + C)] = Na.

At this point it would be a good move to solve for C. Unfortunately, there
is no value of t for which the average value of N is known. (You can't set
t = 0 and Na = Ni, for obvious reasons.) Thus I am at a loss as to how to
proceed from here.

Bottom line: at the moment, I see no way to improve on your calculation.

--Mitchell Jones}***

If the catalyst is 10 years old and 5 x 10^16 atoms of He are
>required, the catalyst in the Case cell must contain 1563 gm of uranium.

***{I am very curious as to the source of this number, since if your
argument has an Achilles heel, this could be it. --MJ}***

This
>is the minimum about which results only if sufficient time has elapsed for all
>the daughters to decay. I think Scott and I would have seen this.
>
>I would like to point out that this suggestion is another example of an
>explanation which looks good on the surface but which can be shown to be
>ridiculous.  Unfortunately, instead of the speculators doing their homework,
>people in the field who are trying to find out what actually is going on
>have to spend valuable time answering such challenges.  Why don't the
>speculators apply the same standards of scholarship to themselves they expect
>from us?

***{I don't think you can accuse a person of having a double standard just
because he stated an erroneous argument. (If you could, then everyone who
ever lived has been guilty of using a double standard. :-) --MJ}***

>
>>
>> Plants take minerals out of the soil that they are in, and these trace
>> amounts of whatever they are in go up the pipes, and actually become part of
>> the matrix or geometry of the overall organism.  Simply roasting a coconut
>> shell and calling it carbon is to me an oversimplification that only a PhD
>> in Physics would do.:-)  Coffee grown in South America will contain Copper.
>> Coffee grown in the Arabic countries will contain silica, and so on.  This
>> is just the way.
>
>This is all true but irrelevant.  Only naturally occurring alpha emitters need
>to be considered and these are the heavy elements.  These elements are rare in
>the soil and not readily taken up by plants. For example, radon which has been
>given a lot of public attention is an inert gas which does not react and would
>not be part of a plant structure unless it resulted from previous decay of
>contained uranium.

***{The same could be said of helium, which is why you are justified in
only considering the time since the carbon catalyst was incorporated in the
structure of a plant--e.g., in a coconut. That is the assumption underlying
your use of t = 10 years. If, however, some of the catalysts were maide
from coal or crude oil, then the decay chain could be many millions of
years old, and the level of contained helium could be much higher. (If
memory serves, some North Texas gas wells produce 50% helium, and I'll bet
that any coal or oil deposits which are sourcing those gases are very high
in helium as well.) --Mitchell Jones}***

   While radon is an alpha emitter, which can not be detected
>by a Geiger counter, it also emits a gamma ray, as do many alpha emitters,
>which
>is detectable.  Therefore, the presence of radon can be detected easily even
>when it is contained in a chunk of carbon.
>
>As an aside, if you wipe the dust from a TV tube and check it with a Geiger
>counter, you may find significant radioactivity which results from accumulated
>radon. You would be surprised know how much radioactivity is in the natural
>environment, but not enough to make so much helium.

***{Do we know for sure that no coal or crude oil is deliberately used in
the manufacture of these catalysts? And even if we do, do we also know that
there is no possibility of inadvertent contamination, say by a leaky oil
seal somewhere in the manufacturing process? Has anyone bothered to study
motor oil, grease, etc., to see how much helium they contain? --Mitchell
Jones}***

>
>Ed Storms

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[snip]

>
>If the catalyst is 10 years old and 5 x 10^16 atoms of He are
>>required, the catalyst in the Case cell must contain 1563 gm of uranium.
>
>***{I am very curious as to the source of this number, since if your
>argument has an Achilles heel, this could be it. --MJ}***
>

***{Clarification: the number I am curious about, above, is your notion
that 5x10^16 atoms of He are required. By what reasoning was this number
calculated? --Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

>>
>>Ed Storms

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  Vorts:

  There is much science and engineering to do in cold fusion,
and probably in the other purported o/u systems.  
  In CF the R&D, and the political persecution of scientists, 
continues.

  The Cold Fusion Times  VOLUME 7 NUMBER 3 [summer 1999]
is almost "put to bed".  

 The Cold Fusion Times web site will be updated with 
the new issue shortly -- depending upon the printer
and perhaps some approaching thunderstorms.
   [More on thunderstorm gamma bursts in the issue].

  The COLD FUSION TIMES web site is located at
URL  http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
and covers some of the scientific details involving
more quality confirmations of cold fusion including
correlated nuclear signatures consisting of 
linked low-level excess neutron and heat in Pd systems
and anomalous heatj and/or anomalous isotopic distributions
in nickel, palladium, and other metal systems loaded by
gas loading, solid state, or electrolysis systems.
We have included other types of fusion systems including 
muon, gluon, and electric discharge.

   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 15:23:50 1999
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
In-Reply-To: <v04011700b39992b75000 [207.8.61.10]>
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At 04:08 PM 6/29/1999 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>It looks right to me, for the present purposes, since it is a conservative
>calculation: i.e., it *overstates* the number of He atoms that will be
>produced per gram of uranium....

    It is a VERY conservative estimate, but not for the reasons that you
state.  One of the nucleotides in the decay chain of U-238 is U-234, with a
half life of over one quarter million years.  It is followed by two other
slow alpha decays, so the number of alphas you consider for U-238 should be
one unless the sample has had a very long time to reach equilibrium.
(Obviously all natural uranium contains some U-234 (0.0055% with half-life
245500 years, but its next decay prooduct also has a long half-life 75000
years so again it contributes at most one alpha.)

    With U-235, we see the same effect.  The next alpha producer in the
decay chain (Pa-231)has a half-life of 32760 years.  So once again, the
second alpha in
the decay chain is a long time coming.

    So even if you assume that you have a sample of Uranium, and all its
daughter products in equilibrium over billions of years, the estimate of
alphas per gram is significantly high.  Oh, and also, not that it matters,
some of the uranium atoms actually decay by spontaneous fission.  That
produces lots of neutrons but not many alphas.

    Oh, by the way, the half-lives, abundences, and decay chains are all
from http://www.dne.bnl.gov/CoN/ which is an mirror of a set of pages at
http://hpngp01.kaeri.re.kr/CoN/index.html at the Korea Atomic Energy
Research Institute.  It is a very good resource for nuclear data.  Thanks
(profuse) and corrections, if any, to Jonghwa Chang.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 19:03:37 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
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>At 04:08 PM 6/29/1999 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>It looks right to me, for the present purposes, since it is a conservative
>>calculation: i.e., it *overstates* the number of He atoms that will be
>>produced per gram of uranium....
>
>    It is a VERY conservative estimate, but not for the reasons that you
>state.

***{You exaggerate: one of the reasons is, in fact, the reason I stated,
though it is admittedly mostly of mathematical interest in the present
situation. As for the time required for the decay chain to eventuate, I
considered going into it, but, since Ed made it clear in his post that his
estimate was conservative in that regard, it seemed pointless. For the
record, when t = 10 years, an assumption of one alpha per uranium decay
would be far closer to the truth than the numbers which Ed used. (And your
implied suggestion that I lengthen my posts is duly noted. :-) --Mitchell
Jones}***

[snip]

>
>    Oh, by the way, the half-lives, abundences, and decay chains are all
>from http://www.dne.bnl.gov/CoN/ which is an mirror of a set of pages at
>http://hpngp01.kaeri.re.kr/CoN/index.html at the Korea Atomic Energy
>Research Institute.  It is a very good resource for nuclear data.  Thanks
>(profuse) and corrections, if any, to Jonghwa Chang.

***{A potentially very useful site. Thanks. --MJ}***

>
>                                        Robert I. Eachus
>
>with Standard_Disclaimer;
>use  Standard_Disclaimer;
>function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 17:27:39 1999
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At 04:35 PM 6/29/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>>If the catalyst is 10 years old and 5 x 10^16 atoms of He are
>>>required, the catalyst in the Case cell must contain 1563 gm of uranium.

>***{Clarification: the number I am curious about, above, is your notion
>that 5x10^16 atoms of He are required. By what reasoning was this number
>calculated?

That's McKubre's number...it's how much He he measured in his Case cell at
the end of some ~20 days of running.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 19:42:40 1999
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >At 04:08 PM 6/29/1999 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
> >>It looks right to me, for the present purposes, since it is a
> conservative
> >>calculation: i.e., it *overstates* the number of He atoms that will
> be
> >>produced per gram of uranium....
> >
> >    It is a VERY conservative estimate, but not for the reasons that
> you
> >state.
>
> ***{You exaggerate: one of the reasons is, in fact, the reason I
> stated,
> though it is admittedly mostly of mathematical interest in the present
>
> situation. As for the time required for the decay chain to eventuate,
> I
> considered going into it, but, since Ed made it clear in his post that
> his
> estimate was conservative in that regard, it seemed pointless. For the
>
> record, when t = 10 years, an assumption of one alpha per uranium
> decay
> would be far closer to the truth than the numbers which Ed used.

Yes, and the amount of U needed would be 8 times greater.  Even if the
amount of He were wrong by 10^6, the required uranium would still be too
high to be reasonable.  But enough beating of a dead horse.

Ed Storms




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I am interested in some text I found, I typed it out so that maybe
someone with better knowledge of chemistry could help answer what this
man is talking about, He is Martin  Ziegler of Mulhouse, France. Letter
patent No. 60,986 dated 1st Jan. 1867.

There is a word he uses asote or asotie which I don't understand,  Can
anyone understand what an asotie body is?

I have observed that whenever asote and carbon, or an asotie body and a
carbonized body, or a body strongly asotie and another but slightly so,
are brought into contact, an imponderable fluid is disengaged, the
presence of which is manifested by certain peculiar effects upon animal
or vegetable organisms. This fluid, which I call "vital fluid," is a new
physical agent, generated, like heat, light, and electricity, in the
midst of chemical circumstances. It may be collected and transmitted in
currents, like the electric fluid as will presently be shown; but whilst
the phenomena by which its presence is manifested bear a certain analogy
to electric phenomena, this fluid is never the less autonomic. and has a
separate and independent existence; and the best and most convincing
proof of this is that currents of the fluid may be connected through
non-electric substances.

Having described the nature of the fluid, I will now proceed to describe
the manner in which it may be generated and brought into condition in
which it can be practically used. At the same time it will be understood
that although I refer to and describe but one or two apparatus fitted
for this purpose, I do not limit myself to such apparatus, but hold
myself at liberty to use all processes which operate on the same
principle to induce like results.

Asotie bodies are the best conductors of this vital fluid, and among
them I prefer silk, which has the advantage of intercepting or
insulating electric currents, the intervention of which would be
detrimental to the fluid.

The apparatus for generating the fluid all resemble the voltaic pile to
a certain degree. Thus, in each is found a generator of the fluid with
two heterogeneous chemical substances--- the one with carbon base, the
the other with an asotie base---- and two conducting threads (kinds of
reaphores) for conducting the current and completing it's circuit.

The following is a good arrangement to adopt: A bladder or like porous
receptacle is filled with caustie ammonia, and is immersed to the neck
in molasses contained in an ordinary jar or suitable vessel. A thread of
silk is attached to the neck of the bladder or porous diaphragm, and the
end of a silk thread placed in molasses. The two pieces of silk are then
united, and the circuit is thus completed and closed, through which the
current of the vital fluid passes. The effect of the fluid will be
manifested on an organized being who is in the course of the current. If
a certain number of these elements are brought together in pairs, a
dozen, for instance, a current of great power may be obtained which will
produce on an animate being much more noticeable effects. The elements
in this case are connected by plunging the thread of the ammoula of the
first element into the molasses of the following element, and so on ; or
better, by uniting on one side all the ammonia threads, and on the other
all those of the molasses.

A still better arrangement may be effected by means of a glass tubes.
For this purpose a glass tube is taken whose length is from ten to
fifteen times its diameter, It should be slightly spread at it's ends,
and two cork stoppers are prepared entirely enveloped in a gold -
beater's skin, (baudruche,) which is wrapped three or four times around
each cork, and bound near the upper end of each with a silk cord which
forms one of the conductors, The silk cord can also be made to pass
through the tubes, and this is even preferable. the tube being corked at
one of it's ends, a charcoal disk of no great thickness is placed in it
--- On this disk are spread a few grains of silicious sand to prevent
it's contact with a second disk of charcoal, and care should be taken
each time the sand is introduced to cover it with ammonia, in such
manner that the whole will be finally immersed in the liquid. the tube
being thus filled is closed by the second cork, and the vital fluid is
then produced, and forms two currents which flow through the conducting
threads. By uniting several of those elements, either placed end to end
or brought together in a bundle, very powerful currents may be obtained.

The above-described apparatus produced good results, but in my
experimentation I have employed in preference the following: It is
composed of tubes, corded at both ends as just explained, but instead of
carbon and silicon sand with ammoula, the tubes are filled with
alternating layers of powdered sugar of lead and cyanide potassium, not
too dry.


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At 03:22 PM 6/29/99 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote:
>
>    I'd rather say no significant difference, since the temperature
>response time seems to have shifted.  (Or was that due to other changes?)

I didn't notice any shifts...what specifically are you referring to?

>If I calculate the cell resistance from the three data
>points, I get 175 ohms, 134 ohms, and 94 ohms, so the cell resistance is
>dropping with voltage, and dropping much faster than the voltage.  It does
>make some sort of sense that this happens, but I am curious as to how much
>lower you can go.

Past experience shows that, at about 85 volts, the gas sheath around the
cathode collapses suddenly and, when that happens, the cell resistance
drops greatly.

>(I also note that there is a current wobble in the
>lowest voltage setting.  Any guesses as to why?)

Yes, the gas sheath is unstable at low voltages.  You can actually see the
spark intensity varying and it makes a wah...wah....wah...wah... sound with
maybe a 1 second period.

>I'd also like to know the gas evolution for the third voltage level.

OK, I'll measure it everywhere next time.

>If the multiplier is similar to the previous steps, you could have exceeded
>your error bars.

Yes, but next time I will also stay on top of the water flow rate, which
may make any hint of an excess disappear.

>Of course, the other, not insigificant possibility is
>that the evolved gasses include CO2 from K2CO3 + H2O --> 2 KOH + CO2...

<snip>

I'm reading some of the papers that have been written about this kind of
electrolysis (called GDE for Glow Discharge Electrolysis or CGDE for
Contact Glow Discharge Electrolysis).  I'll summarize some of the pertinent
facts here later.

> I know, I know, lots of suggestions from a bystander for you to do
>extra work.  But isn't that why you post these experiments?

Yes, thanks for the suggestions and ideas!

Horace wrote:

>It sounds like a good time to start making some reservations!

For the time being, I'm going to hang in here for a few more runs and
continue my dialog with Mizuno over the issues I raised w.r.t. his Pout not
tracking his Pin more closely.  We've had several exchanges over this
matter and finally I think he at least understands my point clearly....but
he hasn't really responded to it.

If he can provide additional data sets that don't show such problems, or if
we can get full details of the Kyoto lab's replication and it looks solid,
or if a 3rd lab in Japan manages to replicate his experiment,  I'll just
have to go!






Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 23:03:23 1999
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Subject: RE: Case & Arata
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 02:05:09 -0400
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Hank wrote:
>Knuke
>	Are you suggesting that radioactive decay creates RF signals (EMP)
>or are you refering to gamma rays?

They would do both on a gamma decay, plus you would have the KE of the He+
ejecta, and the total energy release would be quite large over a short
distance. The photonic frequencies would be in the X-ray range.  The
corresponding tranverse EM radiation would be roughly of the same frequency.
I've been trying to work out exactly how large the energy relase would be
here myself, for the last several days, but when I left Seattle, I let my
friends loot my library etc., and the book that I was most comfortable with
is evidently gone.  Two of them actually.  I've been reviewing the texts
that I have, and they are worthless.  Entry level college stuff written for
children.  I'll have get on the web to get some numbers, and that takes
time.  My basic theory for this cell, and that is all it is, is that the
carbon acts as an conductor/antenna to absorb the decay EMP.  From this I
can envision a number of possible reaction mechanisms that would produce
multiple fusion reactions in the D2, depending on the micro-geometry of the
carbon lattice.

This decay rate and the energy released would vary with the radioactive
material, but from what I understand from the people that do this, is that
it doesn't make any difference what the radioactive material is.  They use
Thorium mantles, Americium, anything they get that will gamma decay.
Results vary with the material, but the outcome is always satisfactory or
worth the effort.  The EMP is strong enough locally to produce fusion, and
the outcome is predictable when the right proportions of other non
radioactive materials are well mixed.  My rough guess would be that anything
with a 1MeV release or higher would do just fine. 

Putterman in California uses "at least" D2 and Tritium in a cavitator, but
that is for pure science research only.  The other people that I know of
actually produce a saleable, stable, transmutation product, and they are
concerned with producing much larger bulk yields, and this product actually
consumes the radioactive material, requiring them to get more.

One scenario in the Case cell is, after the D2 is pressurized into the
lattice, then it is subjected to the multiple shock of the EMP, and the
atoms in the D2 molecule would relax momentarily, possibly long enough for
the mechanical pressure to squeeze them together.

An alternative senario is that the short carbon microtube filled with D2
would absorb the EMP like a hollow conductor/antenna, and pull the electrons
away from the D2 nucleii that are inside the tube, and moving them along
with the free electrons in the carbon matrix.  An ever decreasing number of
secondary nuclear fusion reactions would occur in the D2 until the all of
the energy from the original decay was absorbed, and equilibrium once again
established.  IOW the reaction would evenually limit itself, and stop.
Temperatures would rise, but over time, the heat energy would be conducted
to the case and radiated or conducted outward from there.  The radioactive
materials would, I believe, decay more quickly in this environment due to
the containment of the decay energies and the addition of the secondary
fusion reactions.  The X-ray freqencies in the light and EM are probably
necessary.  I think that the cell stops working at higher temperatures due
to the fact the the resistance of the conducting material increases, making
it a safer kind of reactor in that regard.   All kinds of things could be
happening in there, really.

While there are a number of chemical reactions that occur with Pd, so far
none of them have ever been shown to release any additional energy or do any
transmutation, even micro transmutation, without some kind of electrical
input.  In fact everyone seems to have to jump through a lot of hoops just
to get enough of a transmutation to view with a SEM.

The trace U or UO3 hypothesis would be considered more of a nuclear assisted
chemical reaction than a CANR, perhaps, in a machine like mine with
distilled water, but with a conducting medium like carbon or Hg, at least,
one cannot deny that it would supply electrical impulses that would be quite
large over a short range.

You could try it with some used catalyst or dud catalyst without any
expenditure if you know someone that has any Fiestaware, or yellowcake
ceramic tiles.  Like I said, the method of doping that I used doesn't
require that you destroy or damage anything.  You can just transfer it by
wiping it off of the surface of the glaze, and wipe it on to something else.
You can attempt to quantify roughly the amount that is being transferred
with a Geiger counter, but I would start with a _very_ small amount, and
work up.

Knuke
 
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 29 23:04:59 1999
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Ed wrote:
>Yes, but the tests are best done with some logic.  Random guesses as to
impurities
>in the catalyst are not much help.  For example, do you know whether the
>manufacturer adds impurities to the Pd when it is deposited in order to improve
>the catalytic properties?  Do you know whether Pt is present in the Pd and
at what
>concentration?

These are good questions, and no, I don't know.

  These are the variables of interest to me, not the nonvolatile
>impurities in the carbon.  These impurities are interesting because all of the
>experience in the field indicates that Pd is the site of the action, not the
>carbon.

Pd has been the site of the action in electrolytic cells.  Lasers, Fusors,
cavitators work without Pd.  Granted on this cell, like in any recombiner,
there will be chemical reactions on the Pd, electron transfers, and so
forth, but you have to admit, so far no one has just taken Pd in a cell, put
D2 in with it and had any luck of any sort.  There must be something else
that is necessary.  Judging from the successes with lasers, Fusors,
cavitators etc., a high voltage, high frequency oscillation seems to be
conducive to fusion reactions.  Impurities in the Case cell may include the
necessary ingredients for rectification, for example.  It's a pretty remote
possibility, but it's something to look for.  

  Furthermore, we have no control over these impurities even if they are
>important.  We take what is delivered and assume, because of the method of
>manufacture, that the impurities are uniform.

Well, considering that we started off assuming that there were no impurities
of any significant amount, and found out that there were, and in a
non-uniform condition, this assumtion of uniformity cannot be made.

  This being the case, any variation
>in behavior must be caused by subsequent treatment in the Case apparatus.
While
>this assumption many not be valid, it is reasonable at the present time.

It is one of the many things that are possible, and reasonably speculated
upon.  I've read that Case says that there are some tricks to the
preparation, but we don't know what they are yet.

>Where can I obtain more information about this process?  In all of my
training in
>nuclear chemistry, I have not seen evidence for this effect except for
>transmutation caused by gamma radiation, as suggested by Paul Brown.

I'll check some of the fringe literature, there have been quite a number of
people that have used radium, and UO3 colored glass in various different
devices in the last 100 years or so.  Some of their explanations for what
the devices did were even goofier than mine, which you can read in the post
that I just sent to Ed Wall.  The Wittaker formulae were the most credible
and written at a time when quantum events were being better understood.  I
have to find the guy that has the book that these were published in.  He
said that it was a first edition, and that subsequent editions were altered.
Sometime in the next three weeks, I can give you a definite yes or no as to
whether I find him, and he will let me make a copy.

>While at LANL, we added uranium to a cell to see if its presence would produce
>tritium.  The U had no effect except to plate UO3 on the anode.  Any
solution to
>our funding problems is welcome but I have stopped holding my breath.

I think the effect may work better in more spaced out lattice like the
sputtered W, or this carbon, than in a solid conductor.  Spun aluminum might
work, Phosphor bronze, something like that.  Sputtered W, I like because of
it high refractory, and stiffness characteristics.  It would propagate any
EM wave faster than carbon, for example.  The Mizuno cell may be a good
place to try it.

I also fully appreciate your frustration with the material aspects of this
cell.  You could be chasing impurities for years, and considering the impact
that a successful cell would have on the world, I'm not surprised in the
least that you are having difficulties finding funding for the work.  I
haven't been funded for the last 15 months, but I've never had much to begin
with, and so I'm just used to that.  Everybody is initially thrilled with
the idea of fusion power, but when the uncertainties of radically upsetting
the status quo on a global level start creeping into their consciousness,
only the very brave and/or idiotic proceed with it.  It would have an
enormous equalizing effect on economies, which anyone with money would
instinctively be against.  I'm not a fundraiser guy, in fact, I don't know
what I am right now, other than just another Bozo on this bus.  I just think
that if you have a bit of U in the cupboard, and some used catalyst, you
might want to give it go and see what happens.  I wish that I could
articulate better mathmatically what I think may happen, because you seem to
understand that better, but I'm not capable of doing that right now.  For
me, it has always just been easier and faster to try something based on a
set of general ideas.  If I see something, I can formulate and refine the
math later, and even then I tend to base the math on observation and
measurement versus what is published.

Good luck!

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 00:39:20 1999
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Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 23:42:03 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Sample numbers for resonant AC electrolysis
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Reviewing the resonant circuit proposed for use with an AC electrolysis cell:

          I1
    ---------------  V1
    |             |
    |       -------------
    |       |           |
    |       |           C1
    AC      L1          |  I2
    |       |           |
    |       | I3        R1
    |       |           |
    |       -------------
    |             |
    --------------- Ground

    AC - AC source
    L1 - Inductor
    C1 - The cell capacitance
    R1 - The net cell resistance
    I1 - Input current (rms)
    I2 - Cell current  (rms)
    I3 - Inductor current (rms)
    V1 - supply voltage = cell voltage
    Xl - Reactance of L1
    Xc - Reactance of C2

   Fig. 1 - Resonant circuit for AC electrolysis cell

When the operating frequency is at the resonant frequency for the tank
circuit L1, C1, R1, the net impedence of the tank circuitis maximum to the
AC source, thus the current through the cell I2 is at a maximum with
respect to the input current I1.  In fact,

    I2 = Q * I1 = I3

Where Q is given by:

    Q = Xl/R1

and is a measure of the sharpness of the resonance peak.  Since values of Q
over 100 are not uncommon in ordinary resonance circuits, this is
fascinating, and hints at ou behaviour all by itself, assuming the cell can
be made efficient enough that heat from ambient becomes a large contributor
to the splitting reaction.

The cell is portrayed as a capacitor C1, though it is known that its makeup
is really more in the form of a lattice where elements connecting nodal
points consist of a resistor and capacitor in parallel.  In addition, the
cell is capacitively linked, so there is a set of capacitances around the
electrolyte as well.  A simplified model of the cell might look like the
following:



             |
             |
             C2
             |
     -----------------
     |               |
     |               |
     C4              R2
     |               |
     |               |
     -----------------
             |
             |
             C3
             |

   Fig. 2 - Simplified circuit for
            capacitively linked cell

Here C2 and C3 are the capacitive interface to the electrolyte, either an
insulator around the electordes, the tank walls, or a combination.  The
elecrolyte, or slurry, is represented by C4 and R2 in parallel.  For
purposes of simplifying the analysis, the electrolyte resistance R2 can be
rolled into the tank resistance R1, and we also have for the series
capacitances:

   1/C1 = 1/(C2 + C3 + C4)

In other words, if R2 is large, if the cell walls and electrolyte all have
the same dielectric constant, then the cell is equivalent to a capacitor
the width of the cell, including electrolyte and plate insulators.  If R2
is very small, then:

   1/C1 = 1/(C2 + C3)

and we can treat the two insulators as an equivalent insulator as thick as
the sum of the two.

It is especially of interest that, as the cell area gets bigger, R2 drops,
yet the capacitance C1 increases, thus Q increases.  This has the
appearance of some kind of economy of scale.

Now for some sample design numbers.

ASSUMPTIONS

10 cm x 10 cm plates  (plate size)

V1 = 20 kV  (resonant operating voltage)

Ke = 50   (dielectric constant of ceramic)

Ks = 1000 V/mil = 3.94 x 10^5 V/cm (dielectric strength)

F0 = 16,000 Hz  (resonant frequency)

R1 = cell resistance = 1 ohm

CALCULATIONS

Total plate thickness D1 = V1/Ks = (2x10^5 V)/(3.94 x 10^5 V/cm) = 0.508 cm

Using 50 percent margin, D1 = .762 cm

Area A = 100 cm^2

The ratio A/d1 = (100 cm^2)/(0.762 cm) = 131

Capacitance C1 = Ke (A/d1) (8.85 x 10^-12 F) = 5.80x10^-8 F

Impedence of capacitor Xc = 1/(2 Pi F0 C1) = 1/(2 Pi (16,000) (5.80x10^-8 F))

Xc = 172 ohms

Current through cell I2 = V1/Xc = (20,000 V)/(172 ohms) = 116 amps

Knowing energy of inducatance is equal to energy of capacitance we have:

L1/C1 = (V1/Ic)^2 = (20000/116)^2 ohms^2, so we have

inductance L1 = (2.97x10^4)(C1) H = (2.97x10^4)(5.80x10^-8) H

L1 = 1.72 mH

Inductive reactance Xl = 2 Pi F0 L1 = 2 Pi (16000) (1.72x10^-3) ohms

Xl = 173 ohms

Q = Xl/R1 = 173/1 = 173

Thus we have the driving current:

I1 = I2/Q = (116 A)/173 = 0.67 A

And driving power:

Pd = I1 * V1 = (0.67 A) (20,000 V) =  13.4 kW

Apparent power:

Pa = I2 * V1 = (116 A) (20,000 V) = 2.32 MW

this is clearly overkill, so the numbers will have to be reduced, but are
hopefully demonstrative.  I expect to use a 7 kW variac, and only have
about 6 kW max to drive the circuit at present.  The electrolyte slurry
will have to be pumped rather fast to absorb that much energy and gas
evolvement, assuming such occurs.

Any major problems with concepts or calcs?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 01:27:31 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Vital Fluid
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:25:05 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:02:07 +1200, John Berry wrote:

>I am interested in some text I found, I typed it out so that maybe
>someone with better knowledge of chemistry could help answer what this
>man is talking about, He is Martin  Ziegler of Mulhouse, France. Letter
>patent No. 60,986 dated 1st Jan. 1867.
>
>There is a word he uses asote or asotie which I don't understand,  Can
>anyone understand what an asotie body is?
[snip]
I would guess that it is the equivalent of azote which is nitrogen
related. This also follows from the use of ammonia.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>
> I would guess that it is the equivalent of azote which is nitrogen
> related. This also follows from the use of ammonia.

So then would silk be "asotic"? (it is said that silk is asotic)

>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 03:04:35 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 7
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 06:06:44 -0400
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Scott wrote:
>Yes, the gas sheath is unstable at low voltages.  You can actually see the
>spark intensity varying and it makes a wah...wah....wah...wah... sound with
>maybe a 1 second period.

I read about this in my Guitar Player Monthly, Scott, it's called the
Clapton Effect.8)

Have you considered how you are going to do the flow rate measurements?
You'll need to actually measure the weight for it to be accurate, as it will
change considerably with temperature changes.  I'll try to give it some
thought.  Anybody else got any ideas?  Better to wing them at him now than
later.

Great action photos, too, BTW.  I liked the blurry thing.

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 03:47:49 1999
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-----Original Message-----
From: Michael T Huffman

<snip>

Granted on this cell, like in any recombiner,
>there will be chemical reactions on the Pd, electron transfers, and so
>forth, but you have to admit, so far no one has just taken Pd in a cell,
put
>D2 in with it and had any luck of any sort.

This simply is not true, as the literature shows.

Dozens of demonstrations of successful production of excess energy,
including the very careful work of McKubre under EPRI sponsorship with
unequivocal results. This also ignores the work of Arata and Zhang, which
showed robust energy generation of megajoules per gram of nanopowder Pd,
accompanied by the production of 4He.

 >There must be something else that is necessary.

Indeed. You don't just take any lump Pd and D2 and stick them in a cell and
expect results, as Ed Storms and others have pointed out. There is know-how
related to the structure of the Pd, but there is little if any evidence that
"impurities" contribute to the F&P reaction, which proceeds with high purity
materials. The common feature of Case and Arata, as I pointed out at the
beginning of this thread, is Pd with a highly fractured surface on which
many active sites appear. The nature of these sites is as yet unknown.

Miley has announced that he can manufacture reliable cathodes, but this
involves the highly controlled deposition of thin films on a metallic
substrate.

Mike Carrell


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To: Vortex

Going by the bond energy:

Hg-Hg  0.083 ev,   H-Hg  0.42  ev,    D-Hg   0.44 ev

K-Hg  0.083 ev,   H-K   1.82 ev,   H-Pd  2.43 ev,

it would seem that using Hg in place of Pd as an electrolysis
cathode, the H or D would "load" better into the Hg than into 
the Pd.

This would also allow the K to load into or amalgamate with the Hg,
thus there would be H,  D,  and K atoms in the Hg "lattice", or on the
Hg cathode surface.

What happens next?    :-)

Regards,     Frederick



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Michael T Huffman wrote:

> Ed wrote:
>
>
>   These are the variables of interest to me, not the nonvolatile
> >impurities in the carbon.  These impurities are interesting because all of the
> >experience in the field indicates that Pd is the site of the action, not the
> >carbon.
>
> Pd has been the site of the action in electrolytic cells.  Lasers, Fusors,
> cavitators work without Pd.  Granted on this cell, like in any recombiner,
> there will be chemical reactions on the Pd, electron transfers, and so
> forth, but you have to admit, so far no one has just taken Pd in a cell, put
> D2 in with it and had any luck of any sort.

You forget the Arata method.  In addition, other metals have been found to work
under conditions which can inject the D with enough vigor to overcome the natural
low solubility.  However, to my knowledge, carbon is not one of them.

> There must be something else
> that is necessary.  Judging from the successes with lasers, Fusors,
> cavitators etc., a high voltage, high frequency oscillation seems to be
> conducive to fusion reactions.  Impurities in the Case cell may include the
> necessary ingredients for rectification, for example.  It's a pretty remote
> possibility, but it's something to look for.

>
>
> It is one of the many things that are possible, and reasonably speculated
> upon.  I've read that Case says that there are some tricks to the
> preparation, but we don't know what they are yet.

Yes we do.  The cell must be cleaned by a hydrogen purge and a temperature gradient
must be present. you can, and will no doubt, speculate what each of the
requirements accomplish.

>
> >Where can I obtain more information about this process?  In all of my
> training in
> >nuclear chemistry, I have not seen evidence for this effect except for
> >transmutation caused by gamma radiation, as suggested by Paul Brown.
>
> I'll check some of the fringe literature, there have been quite a number of
> people that have used radium, and UO3 colored glass in various different
> devices in the last 100 years or so.  Some of their explanations for what
> the devices did were even goofier than mine, which you can read in the post
> that I just sent to Ed Wall.  The Wittaker formulae were the most credible
> and written at a time when quantum events were being better understood.  I
> have to find the guy that has the book that these were published in.  He
> said that it was a first edition, and that subsequent editions were altered.
> Sometime in the next three weeks, I can give you a definite yes or no as to
> whether I find him, and he will let me make a copy.

Unfortunately for your explanation, the cold fusion reaction does not produce local
EM energy.  For the fusion reaction to occur at all, a special condition must exist
which lowers the coulomb barrier and at the same time dumps the resulting energy
into many atoms.  These requirements have been known from day one.  You are free to
speculate about ways this may be accomplished, but you need to stick to the well
known observations.  On the other hand, a significant source of external radiation
might enhance the process one the required environment was created.  However, no
natural radioactivity is at a high enough level to be the required stimulator of
the observed rate.

>
> >While at LANL, we added uranium to a cell to see if its presence would produce
> >tritium.  The U had no effect except to plate UO3 on the anode.  Any
> solution to
> >our funding problems is welcome but I have stopped holding my breath.
>
> I think the effect may work better in more spaced out lattice like the
> sputtered W, or this carbon, than in a solid conductor.  Spun aluminum might
> work, Phosphor bronze, something like that.  Sputtered W, I like because of
> it high refractory, and stiffness characteristics.  It would propagate any
> EM wave faster than carbon, for example.  The Mizuno cell may be a good
> place to try it.

I suggest you are using a very simple model of material properties, one which
further study would show to have no relevance to the problem.  EM is not
transmitted through the bonds which give a lattice stiffness.  The latter effect
depends on bond energy, on its sensitivity to bond direction, and the presence of
impurities which inhibit atom movement.  This is has nothing to do with EM
transmission through the structure.

The problem we all face is to find a reasonable model which has supporting logic
outside of the CANR field and which can be easily tested.  Thinking of dozens of
possible variables, many of which experience strongly suggests to have no impact,
becomes a distracting waste of time.  On the other hand, sometimes an idea which
was overlooked by a more focused effort is found to have value.  As long as you
have nothing better to do, I hope you keep looking for explanations.  Just don't
feel too bad if most are ignored.

Regards,

Ed  Storms


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 08:32:26 1999
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 7
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At 12:20 AM 6/30/1999 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>>    I'd rather say no significant difference, since the temperature
>>response time seems to have shifted.  (Or was that due to other changes?)
>
>I didn't notice any shifts...what specifically are you referring to?

   It looked to me as if the impulse response in the power out data when
the voltage is changed is shorter in length, so I assumed that the time
constant of the calorimeter is lower.  This could be due either to a higher
flow rate in the coolant, smaller mass, or (what I assumed) was that the
quartz flask was more conductive.  But as I said, as far as I am concerned,
this is a change external to the experiment.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 09:07:31 1999
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From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Subject: Propulsion Through Electromagnetic Self-Sustained Acceleration 
 (physics/9906059)
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Hi,

This paper (http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/9906059) appeared today on LANL archive. It may have significance on gravity modification research. 

Vesselin Petkov's previous paper (http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/9805028) "On the Possibility of a Propulsion Drive Creation Through a Local Manipulation of Spacetime Geometry" is equally interesting.

Regards, hamdi ucar



Physics, abstract
physics/9906059

Propulsion Through Electromagnetic Self-Sustained Acceleration

Authors: Vesselin Petkov
Comments: 6 pages, LaTeX
Report-no: AIAA 99-2144
Subj-class: Classical Physics; General Physics
Journal-ref: Revised version of a paper presented at the 35th
AIAA/ASME/SAE/ASEE Joint Propulsion Conference

     As is known the repulsion of the volume elements of an
     uniformly accelerating charge or a charge supported in an
     uniform gravitational field accounts for the electromagnetic
     contribution to the charge's inertial and gravitational mass,
     respectively. This means that the mutual repulsion of the
     charge's volume elements resists its accelerated motion.
     Conversely, the effect of electromagnetic attraction of
     opposite charges results in a self-sustaining accelerated
     motion of the charges provided that they have been initially
     uniformly accelerated or supported in an uniform
     gravitational field. The significance of this effect is that it
     constitutes a possibility for altering inertia and gravitation.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 10:27:55 1999
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 <v04011700b39992b75000 [207.8.61.10]> <3773B60C.DA440429@ix.netcom.com>
 <19990625101957796.AAA165 mail.lcia.com@lizard>
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:21:14 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
Resent-Message-ID: <"O6wbG2.0.hE1.bBbUt" mx1>
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>At 04:35 PM 6/29/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>>If the catalyst is 10 years old and 5 x 10^16 atoms of He are
>>>>required, the catalyst in the Case cell must contain 1563 gm of uranium.
>
>>***{Clarification: the number I am curious about, above, is your notion
>>that 5x10^16 atoms of He are required. By what reasoning was this number
>>calculated?
>
>That's McKubre's number...it's how much He he measured in his Case cell at
>the end of some ~20 days of running.

***{I understand that McKubre was involved in the Russ George replication,
so I assume that is what you are talking about. Under standard conditions,
5x10^16 atoms of He will occupy (5x10^16/6.02x10^23)(22400) = 1.86x10-3 ml.
However, according to his paper at
http://rsrch.com/saturna/APSpapers_1998_1999.htm, George was running at 3
atm and 200 deg. C. Under those conditions, the effect of the pressure
would be to shrink the volume, as per Boyle's law, to (1/3)(1.86x10^-3) =
6.2x10^-4 ml. And, of course, the effect of the temperature increase would
be to expand the volume, as per Charles' law, to (473/273)(6.2x10^-4) =
1.07x10^-3 ml. Further, since George measured his He concentration at 11
ppm, with ambient at 5.22 ppm, and since the above number only represents
the excess above 5.22 ppm, it follows that the total volume of He in his
apparatus would be [11/(11-5.22)](1.07x10^-3) = 2.04x10^-3 ml. Since that
He represents 11 ppm, it follows that the total volume, V, of gas in
George's apparatus would be described by the following equation: 11/10^6 =
2.04x10^-3/V, and, solving, we find that V = (2.04x10^-3)(10^6)/11 = 185.9
ml. However, according to George's paper, the overall volume of his cell--a
stainless steel flask--was a mere 50 ml, of which 20 ml was occupied by the
catalyst (10 gms at a density of .5 gm/ml). Thus even if we generously
treat the entire volume occupied by the catalyst as available to the gas,
there is simply *no way* that George's He concentration can be correct, if
it is based in any way on the number which you say was given by McKubre,
above. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>Scott Little
>EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
>512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX)
>little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 10:56:18 1999
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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:53:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jerry Wayne Decker <jwdatwork yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Vital Fluid
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Hi John et al!

Azote is an old name for nitrogen as in;

Nitrogen \Ni`tro*gen\, n. [L. nitrum natron + -gen:
cf. F. nitrog[`e]ne. See Niter.] (Chem.) A colorless
nonmetallic element, tasteless and odorless,
comprising four fifths of the atmosphere by volume. It
is chemically very inert in the free state, and as
such is incapable of supporting life (hence the name
azote still used by French chemists); but it forms
many important compounds, as ammonia, nitric acid, the
cyanides, etc, and is a constituent of all organized
living tissues, animal or vegetable. Symbol N. Atomic
weight 14. It was formerly regarded as a permanent
noncondensible gas, but was liquefied in 1877 by
Cailletet of Paris, and Pictet of Geneva. 

--- John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> I am interested in some text I found, I typed it out
> so that maybe
> someone with better knowledge of chemistry could
> help answer what this
> man is talking about, He is Martin  Ziegler of
> Mulhouse, France. Letter
> patent No. 60,986 dated 1st Jan. 1867.
> 
> There is a word he uses asote or asotie which I
> don't understand,  Can
> anyone understand what an asotie body is?
> 
> I have observed that whenever asote and carbon, or
> an asotie body and a
> carbonized body, or a body strongly asotie and
> another but slightly so,
> are brought into contact, an imponderable fluid is
> disengaged, the
> presence of which is manifested by certain peculiar
> effects upon animal
> or vegetable organisms. This fluid, which I call
> "vital fluid," is a new

===


=================================
Please respond to jdecker keelynet.com
as I am writing from my work email of
jwdatwork yahoo.com.........thanks!
=================================
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 10:59:10 1999
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Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 7
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At 12:20 AM 6/30/99 -0500, Scott Little wrote:

>At 03:22 PM 6/29/99 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote:
>Past experience shows that, at about 85 volts, the gas sheath around the
>cathode collapses suddenly and, when that happens, the cell resistance
>drops greatly.
>
>>(I also note that there is a current wobble in the
>>lowest voltage setting.  Any guesses as to why?)
>
>Yes, the gas sheath is unstable at low voltages.  You can actually see the
>spark intensity varying and it makes a wah...wah....wah...wah... sound with
>maybe a 1 second period.
>
>>I'd also like to know the gas evolution for the third voltage level.
>
>OK, I'll measure it everywhere next time.
>
>>If the multiplier is similar to the previous steps, you could have exceeded
>>your error bars.
>
>Yes, but next time I will also stay on top of the water flow rate, which
>may make any hint of an excess disappear.


  To how low input power can you drive the system?  

  Does the wah-wah time period include a f(voltage, current, or power)? 

  Would you say the run had minimum, ave. or maximum, heat exchange?

  How much lower can you lower the input electrical power, and
minimize the heat extraction?

    Mitchell Swartz


   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 11:14:56 1999
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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:09:53 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Substitute Mercury for Palladium?
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At 5:24 AM 6/30/99, Frederick  Sparber wrote:
>To: Vortex
>
>Going by the bond energy:
>
>Hg-Hg  0.083 ev,   H-Hg  0.42  ev,    D-Hg   0.44 ev
>
>K-Hg  0.083 ev,   H-K   1.82 ev,   H-Pd  2.43 ev,
>
>it would seem that using Hg in place of Pd as an electrolysis
>cathode, the H or D would "load" better into the Hg than into
>the Pd.
>
>This would also allow the K to load into or amalgamate with the Hg,
>thus there would be H,  D,  and K atoms in the Hg "lattice", or on the
>Hg cathode surface.
>
>What happens next?    :-)

There is no high fugacity sustaining lattice because Hg is liquid.  Maybe
some hydrated scum forms on thw top of the mercury?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Mitchell,

I do not have time to follow your logic in calculating the number of atoms of
He so I will go through the process step by step using a method I do
understand.

Assume the volume of the apparatus is 50 ml, the temperature is 200°C or 473 K,
and the pressure is 3.5 atm.

50*3.5*273/473= volume at STP=101 ml

vol at STP/22400 = # moles of gas molecules= 101/22400= 0.0045 moles D2

Avogradro number * moles = number of molecules=6.023*10^23*0.0045 =
2.7*10^23

11x10^-6 is the measured fraction of He
2.7*10^23 * 11x10^-6 = 3.0*10^16 atoms of He

This result is very close to the value quoted by Scott.  The difference is
completely irrelevant.

Ed Storms


Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >At 04:35 PM 6/29/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
> >
> >>>If the catalyst is 10 years old and 5 x 10^16 atoms of He are
> >>>>required, the catalyst in the Case cell must contain 1563 gm of uranium.
> >
> >>***{Clarification: the number I am curious about, above, is your notion
> >>that 5x10^16 atoms of He are required. By what reasoning was this number
> >>calculated?
> >
> >That's McKubre's number...it's how much He he measured in his Case cell at
> >the end of some ~20 days of running.
>
> ***{I understand that McKubre was involved in the Russ George replication,
> so I assume that is what you are talking about. Under standard conditions,
> 5x10^16 atoms of He will occupy (5x10^16/6.02x10^23)(22400) = 1.86x10-3 ml.
> However, according to his paper at
> http://rsrch.com/saturna/APSpapers_1998_1999.htm, George was running at 3
> atm and 200 deg. C. Under those conditions, the effect of the pressure
> would be to shrink the volume, as per Boyle's law, to (1/3)(1.86x10^-3) =
> 6.2x10^-4 ml. And, of course, the effect of the temperature increase would
> be to expand the volume, as per Charles' law, to (473/273)(6.2x10^-4) =
> 1.07x10^-3 ml. Further, since George measured his He concentration at 11
> ppm, with ambient at 5.22 ppm, and since the above number only represents
> the excess above 5.22 ppm, it follows that the total volume of He in his
> apparatus would be [11/(11-5.22)](1.07x10^-3) = 2.04x10^-3 ml. Since that
> He represents 11 ppm, it follows that the total volume, V, of gas in
> George's apparatus would be described by the following equation: 11/10^6 =
> 2.04x10^-3/V, and, solving, we find that V = (2.04x10^-3)(10^6)/11 = 185.9
> ml. However, according to George's paper, the overall volume of his cell--a
> stainless steel flask--was a mere 50 ml, of which 20 ml was occupied by the
> catalyst (10 gms at a density of .5 gm/ml). Thus even if we generously
> treat the entire volume occupied by the catalyst as available to the gas,
> there is simply *no way* that George's He concentration can be correct, if
> it is based in any way on the number which you say was given by McKubre,
> above. --Mitchell Jones}***
>
> >
> >
> >Scott Little
> >EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
> >512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX)
> >little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little




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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
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At 8:39 AM 6/30/99, Edmund Storms wrote:
[SNIP]
> On the other hand, sometimes an idea which
>was overlooked by a more focused effort is found to have value.  As long as you
>have nothing better to do, I hope you keep looking for explanations.  Just
>don't
>feel too bad if most are ignored.
>
>Regards,
>
>Ed  Storms


Amen to that!  Typical brainstorming produces about 1 in 20 to 1 in 100
good ideas.  When the potential payoff for society is so enormously high,
as it is with new energy, 1 successful in 10,000 ideas makes for very good
progress.  You can't feel bad about rejected ideas.  It is only the good
seed that counts.

My personal hope is also that time not be wasted on useless ego driven
debate, but rather on synergism. The repsectful tone and extreme tolerance
of recent discussion I think has been very good in that respect.  I hope it
lasts.  Vortex is a seed garden, IMHO.

Sometimes I wish a magic wand could be waved to remove all ego, mine
included.  Difficult fields like Physics are full of giant egos.  This is
not surprising at all, in that it takes a giant ego to tackle a giant
problem.  To work on this stuff I have to get out the imagination pump to
puff mine up, don the quixotic armor, believe in the impossible victory,
and go off to joust the windmills.  It is a noble pursuit, I hope.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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June 30, 1999

Vortex,

I believe George's Case type replication experiment had a flowing gas system. It
had to in order to run an in-line spectrometer. So the total volume involved
probably is greater than just the cell capacity. Just commenting from
recollection.

-ak-

Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >At 04:35 PM 6/29/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
> >
> >>>If the catalyst is 10 years old and 5 x 10^16 atoms of He are
> >>>>required, the catalyst in the Case cell must contain 1563 gm of uranium.
> >
> >>***{Clarification: the number I am curious about, above, is your notion
> >>that 5x10^16 atoms of He are required. By what reasoning was this number
> >>calculated?
> >
> >That's McKubre's number...it's how much He he measured in his Case cell at
> >the end of some ~20 days of running.
>
> ***{I understand that McKubre was involved in the Russ George replication,
> so I assume that is what you are talking about. Under standard conditions,
> 5x10^16 atoms of He will occupy (5x10^16/6.02x10^23)(22400) = 1.86x10-3 ml.
> However, according to his paper at
> http://rsrch.com/saturna/APSpapers_1998_1999.htm, George was running at 3
> atm and 200 deg. C. Under those conditions, the effect of the pressure
> would be to shrink the volume, as per Boyle's law, to (1/3)(1.86x10^-3) =
> 6.2x10^-4 ml. And, of course, the effect of the temperature increase would
> be to expand the volume, as per Charles' law, to (473/273)(6.2x10^-4) =
> 1.07x10^-3 ml. Further, since George measured his He concentration at 11
> ppm, with ambient at 5.22 ppm, and since the above number only represents
> the excess above 5.22 ppm, it follows that the total volume of He in his
> apparatus would be [11/(11-5.22)](1.07x10^-3) = 2.04x10^-3 ml. Since that
> He represents 11 ppm, it follows that the total volume, V, of gas in
> George's apparatus would be described by the following equation: 11/10^6 =
> 2.04x10^-3/V, and, solving, we find that V = (2.04x10^-3)(10^6)/11 = 185.9
> ml. However, according to George's paper, the overall volume of his cell--a
> stainless steel flask--was a mere 50 ml, of which 20 ml was occupied by the
> catalyst (10 gms at a density of .5 gm/ml). Thus even if we generously
> treat the entire volume occupied by the catalyst as available to the gas,
> there is simply *no way* that George's He concentration can be correct, if
> it is based in any way on the number which you say was given by McKubre,
> above. --Mitchell Jones}***
>
> >
> >
> >Scott Little
> >EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
> >512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX)
> >little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 13:19:14 1999
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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:17:21 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Novel uses of resonant electrolytic cells (RECs).
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The use of an AC electrolytic cell in a resonant circuit, primarily as the
capacitance, be it in series or parallel resonance, achieves an efficient
high energy flux through the cell, especially when operated at a high Q.
For convenience, let's call such a cell a resonant electrolytic cell (REC).

RECs have a myriad of potential uses.  Foremost is the achievement of
efficient electrolysis, especially for evolving the soichiometric hydrogen
and oxygen gas mixture evolved from AC electrolysis, called Brown's gas,
attributed by some as having special atomic/molecular and engergetic
properties.

Second, the prospect of high electrolytic efficiency raises the frequently
discussed possibility of further attack on the Second Law of Thermodynamics
by using ambient heat to add to electrolysis efficiency, and thus produce a
COP over 1.  It is well known that energy from ambient heat contributes to
electroylsis and use of this fact is made by modern electrolysis units by
operating at a high temperature. The heat energy is contributed at the
electrodes in the form of vibration of the (H+)-H20 bond in the H3O+
molecules in close proximity to the cathode.  A high temperature REC,
operated in a closed highly insulated environment, with the electrolyte
acting as a heat dump for a heat engine, might close the energy loop.

Third, the fact that capacitive linkage with the high dielectric constant
water or other high dielectric constant fluids completely bypasses the two
atom thick layer at electrodes, called the interface, also bypasses the
majority of potential drop in the cell.  Capacitive linkage is thus a higly
efficient means of deploying energy flux in the water.  This high energy
flux has various potential (wild and not so wild idea) applications:

1. Driving cold fusion.  This might be especially facilitated by using a DC
current flow normal to the AC energy flow, made possible by the insulation
and isolation provided by the capacitive linkage for the AC component,  and
by inclusion of the standard CF genre of nickel coated plastic beads, Pd
catalyst on carbon substrate in heavy water, etc.

2. Stimulation of cavitation

3. A aid to sonoluminescence, an added "hammer"

4. Cleaning

5. Sterilization

6. Catalysis of chemical reactions

7. An aid to crystal formation, production of rubies, etc.

8. Stimulation of fluorescing materials for production of light

9. Emulsification and homogenization

10. Hydrogenation

11. Polymerization

More to come.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 13:24:31 1999
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Subject: PLEC: Run 8
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Same day service on Run 8!

We used 0.2M K2CO3 and explored all the way down to 70 volts in 6 plateaus.
 Despite correcting for obvious errors and staying on top of the flow rate,
there's a 1-2% unexplained excess showing.  Could be real excess
heat...probably is just other errors not corrected yet.

http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/run8.html



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 13:31:47 1999
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June 30, 1999

Vortex,

I do not know exactly how an in-line spectrometer works but I surmise and assume
that it analyzes a fixed sample volume passing through its system rather than
anything to do with the total volume involved in an experiment. So the actual volume
tested is more than likely smaller than the cell volume. Right or wrong?

-ak-



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 13:33:57 1999
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At 13:51 6/30/99 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>  To how low input power can you drive the system?  

On run 8, it got down to 80 watts before collapsing. If desired, I think
you could go down considerably further by insulating the cell so that it
would remain near the boiling point.

>  Does the wah-wah time period include a f(voltage, current, or power)? 

V is constant.  Current...and thus power....fluctuates slightly with each
"wah".

>  Would you say the run had minimum, ave. or maximum, heat exchange?

Average. The heat exchange is presently adjusted to give ~90C cell temp at
120-140 watts. By either filling or emptying the coupling water reservoir
around the cell, I can raise or lower the heat exchange.

>How much lower can you lower the input electrical power, and
>minimize the heat extraction?

I don't know.  There's a voltage threshold for the gas sheath (Kellogg
reported ~45 volts for anodic CGDE (Contact Glow Discharge Electrolysis))
that will determine the minimum power.  I guess the current will be related
to electrode size, mainly.  Mine runs around 1 amp so that would be 45
watts...if I could get the cathodic CGDE to run at that voltage.  Several
refs have mentioned that cathodic CGDE is harder to establish than anodic.

I'm sure we could keep the solution near boiling with 45 watts...easy.

I know where you're headed with this and it just might be a good place.
However, it is not where Mizuno observes his excess heat.  He reports using
voltages between 120 and 180 and his Pin is 120 watts and up.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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>Mitchell,
>
>I do not have time to follow your logic in calculating the number of atoms of
>He so I will go through the process step by step using a method I do
>understand.
>
>Assume the volume of the apparatus is 50 ml, the temperature is 200°C or
>473 K,
>and the pressure is 3.5 atm.

***{I was using 3 atm, as indicated by the abstract of the Russ George
paper. Looking further down in the article, I see that 3.4 atm was
mentioned later--therefore your assumption of 3.5 is acceptable for now.
--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>50*3.5*273/473= volume at STP=101 ml

***{Yup. --MJ}***

>
>vol at STP/22400 = # moles of gas molecules= 101/22400= 0.0045 moles D2

***{Yup. --MJ}***

>
>Avogradro number * moles = number of molecules=6.023*10^23*0.0045 =
>2.7*10^23

***{Nope: correct is 2.7x10^21. --MJ}***

>
>11x10^-6 is the measured fraction of He
>2.7*10^23 * 11x10^-6 = 3.0*10^16 atoms of He

***{Hmm, (2.7x10^21)(11x10^-6) = 2.98x10^16, which is essentially the same
as you concluded, above, so I assume that you copied this calculation from
a piece of scratch paper, and that the earlier errors are typos.

In any case, you can't stop here, because the above number refers to the
*total* amount of He at the end of the run. On the other hand, based on
your earlier calculation of the amount of uranium that would be required,
the *excess* He above background is what we need here. That would be
[(11-5.22)/11](2.98x10^16) = 1.57x10^16 atoms, rather than the 5x10^16
atoms that you used in your calculation.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>This result is very close to the value quoted by Scott.  The difference is
>completely irrelevant.

***{Scott quoted McKubre as giving 5x10^16 atoms of excess He, and your
(corrected) calculation we get  1.57x10^16 atoms. That means McKubre's
number of excess He atoms is too high by (5/1.57)(100) - 100 = 218%, which
is hardly irrelevant.

Going back through my calculation with these new numbers, I get:

(1.57x10^16/6.02x10^23)(22400) = 5.83x10-4 ml.
(1/3.4)(5.83x10-4) = 1.71x10^-4 ml.
(473/273)(1.71x10^-4) = 2.97x10^-4 ml.
[11/(11-5.22)](2.97x10^-4) = 5.65x10^-4 ml.
(5.65x10^-4)(10^6)/11 = 51.4 ml.

Which, of course, is still a bit above 50 ml because I started with your
(corrected) number, which was based on an assumed 3.5 atm, and also used
the actual value of 3.4 atm from the George paper.

Unfortunately, other problems remain--to wit: we are still treating the 20
ml occupied by the catalyst as if it is empty space, which, of course, it
isn't. (The occupied portion of the 20 ml taken up by the catalyst will be
very close to the density of diamond, 3.51, divided into the mass of
carbon, 10 gms, which gives 2.85 ml of occupied space, and 17.15 ml of
available space inside the catalyst, if we assume it is freely
permeable--which, obviously, it isn't.)

Bottom line: if there is this much play in these numbers, who in his right
mind is going to trust anything about this result?

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Ed Storms

[snip]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 13:47:32 1999
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At 15:32 6/30/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>Bottom line: if there is this much play in these numbers, who in his right
>mind is going to trust anything about this result?

A big part of the problem is that you are using data from George's paper
and Ed is using data from a different experiment: McKubre's own experiment
discussed at the recent SSE meeting in Alb...and, since that was only an
oral presentation, the details of that experiment are not all that clear.

I judge this issue to be OVERCOOKED!  Let's drop it until more data comes in.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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At 03:32 PM 6/30/99 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>At 13:51 6/30/99 -0400, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>
>I know where you're headed with this and it just might be a good place.
>However, it is not where Mizuno observes his excess heat.  He reports using
>voltages between 120 and 180 and his Pin is 120 watts and up.

    They may depend upon other factors such as total electrode area[s],
configurations, etc.. , so IMO the form of the curve -- and your/his/whomever
location upon it -- may be as important (or possibly more) than
any of the absolute values.

    Have a good day.

      Mitchell Swartz

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>
>
> Bottom line: if there is this much play in these numbers, who in his right
> mind is going to trust anything about this result?
>
> --Mitchell Jones}***
>
> Come on Mitchell, give me a break.  The calculations are based on approximate
> values in order to give an order of magnitude value.  The concentration given
> by George was based on exact values and it is the number which is important.
> The order of magnitude value for the number of He atoms is only important in
> determining whether uiranium can account for the helium.  I think I have shown
> that within a factor of 1000000, this can not be the explanation for the
> helium.  What is the point of nit picking the calculations?

Ed Storms




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 15:19:30 1999
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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 17:16:43 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
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>>
>>
>> Bottom line: if there is this much play in these numbers, who in his right
>> mind is going to trust anything about this result?
>>
>> --Mitchell Jones}***
>>
>> Come on Mitchell, give me a break. The calculations are based on approximate
>> values in order to give an order of magnitude value.  The concentration
>>given
>> by George was based on exact values and it is the number which is important.
>> The order of magnitude value for the number of He atoms is only important in
>> determining whether uiranium can account for the helium.  I think I have
>>shown
>> that within a factor of 1000000, this can not be the explanation for the
>> helium.

***{What you demonstrated is that the excess He cannot be explained by
postulating a uranium contamination that took place a mere 10 years ago.
But you did not address the question of whether the contaminant might be
something which contains the results of a decay chain that went on for
millions of years--such as a bit of grease that originated in the North
Texas oil fields where offgassing is 50% helium, for example. Since Tom
Claytor and Ed Wall have already demonstrated that these catalysts contain
iron contaminants, probably from rusty pipes, it isn't much of a stretch to
suppose that some of them might contain an errant bit of grease or coal. If
it did, and if it came from one of these helium-rich wells, how many He
atoms would likely be trapped in the carbon? More than enough, I suspect,
to account for Russ George's result. --Mitchell Jones}***

 What is the point of nit picking the calculations?

***{I strongly doubt that this experiment is "over unity," and I am probing
for weakness. (If you don't shake a tree, you will never know what might
have fallen out. :-) I would add that if the people who performed this
experiment really are the source of the erroneous 5x10^16 number, then who
knows where else they messed up? Granted, everybody makes mistakes, and so
this example does not refute the experiment; but you have to admit that it
doesn't exactly inspire confidence, either. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Ed Storms

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 <v04011700b39eebc85672 [207.8.61.95]>	
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 <v04011700b39fe6e9bb97 [207.8.61.95]>
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:03:20 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
Resent-Message-ID: <"BpUOV1.0.oW.AAgUt" mx1>
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[snip]

>>
>>This result is very close to the value quoted by Scott.  The difference is
>>completely irrelevant.
>
>***{Scott quoted McKubre as giving 5x10^16 atoms of excess He, and your
>(corrected) calculation we get  1.57x10^16 atoms. That means McKubre's
>number of excess He atoms is too high by (5/1.57)(100) - 100 = 218%, which
>is hardly irrelevant.
>
>Going back through my calculation with these new numbers, I get:
>
>(1.57x10^16/6.02x10^23)(22400) = 5.83x10-4 ml.
>(1/3.4)(5.83x10-4) = 1.71x10^-4 ml.
>(473/273)(1.71x10^-4) = 2.97x10^-4 ml.
>[11/(11-5.22)](2.97x10^-4) = 5.65x10^-4 ml.
>(5.65x10^-4)(10^6)/11 = 51.4 ml.
>
>Which, of course, is still a bit above 50 ml because I started with your
>(corrected) number, which was based on an assumed 3.5 atm, and also used
>the actual value of 3.4 atm from the George paper.
>
>Unfortunately, other problems remain--to wit: we are still treating the 20
>ml occupied by the catalyst as if it is empty space, which, of course, it
>isn't. (The occupied portion of the 20 ml taken up by the catalyst will be
>very close to the density of diamond, 3.51, divided into the mass of
>carbon, 10 gms, which gives 2.85 ml of occupied space, and 17.15 ml of
>available space inside the catalyst, if we assume it is freely
>permeable--which, obviously, it isn't.)
>

***{Let me elaborate a bit on the above: since the catalyst is about 86%
empty space, if it contains a piece of grease or coal that originated in a
helium rich deposit, that lump of contaminant would likely contain a
similar proportion of empty space. If V represents the volume of the lump,
then .8575V represents the empty space, and if that space contains gases
that are 50% helium, then the volume of contained He is .5(.8575)V, or
.429V. Thus (.429)V = [1.57x10^16/(6.02x10^23)](22400), and when we solve
for V we discover that the required volume of the contaminant is .00136 ml,
which is a cube slightly more than 1 mm on a side. Such a particle would be
little more than a speck of dust, and yet it is all that would be required
to explain away Russ George's helium results. --Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 18:51:32 1999
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From: e lewis <elewis1 hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: book I wrote
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:47:59 PDT
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I've written a book about the philosophy and history of science, and the 
cause of economic depressions and economic periodicity.
A theory of the development of science is presented.
If people haven't yet looked at Kondratiev theory related papers on my site 
it is:
http://207.225.33.111/booktext.html

I also talk about the recent history of the development of new science and 
describe various concerns and my opinions about the new phenomena and the 
directions of scientific development.  In particular I try to show why the 
plasmoid ideas and the research of Matsumoto and Shoulders is important.

So far for 10 years the theory has been right in three areas of prediction: 
there seems to be a scientific revolution, an economic boom, and a Quantum 
Mechanics based industrial revolution.

Now productivity for the most advanced economies is increasing faster than 
ever last few decades, as was predicted 10 years ago, and the theory would 
predict even faster productivity growth.   Right now a bunch of new 
industries are starting.


see my theory on my web site.


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 19:06:17 1999
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >>
> >>
> >> Bottom line: if there is this much play in these numbers, who in his right
> >> mind is going to trust anything about this result?
> >>
> >> --Mitchell Jones}***
> >>
> >> Come on Mitchell, give me a break. The calculations are based on approximate
> >> values in order to give an order of magnitude value.  The concentration
> >>given
> >> by George was based on exact values and it is the number which is important.
> >> The order of magnitude value for the number of He atoms is only important in
> >> determining whether uiranium can account for the helium.  I think I have
> >>shown
> >> that within a factor of 1000000, this can not be the explanation for the
> >> helium.
>
> ***{What you demonstrated is that the excess He cannot be explained by
> postulating a uranium contamination that took place a mere 10 years ago.
> But you did not address the question of whether the contaminant might be
> something which contains the results of a decay chain that went on for
> millions of years--such as a bit of grease that originated in the North
> Texas oil fields where offgassing is 50% helium, for example. Since Tom
> Claytor and Ed Wall have already demonstrated that these catalysts contain
> iron contaminants, probably from rusty pipes, it isn't much of a stretch to
> suppose that some of them might contain an errant bit of grease or coal. If
> it did, and if it came from one of these helium-rich wells, how many He
> atoms would likely be trapped in the carbon? More than enough, I suspect,
> to account for Russ George's result. --Mitchell Jones}***
>
>  What is the point of nit picking the calculations?
>
> ***{I strongly doubt that this experiment is "over unity," and I am probing
> for weakness. (If you don't shake a tree, you will never know what might
> have fallen out. :-) I would add that if the people who performed this
> experiment really are the source of the erroneous 5x10^16 number, then who
> knows where else they messed up? Granted, everybody makes mistakes, and so
> this example does not refute the experiment; but you have to admit that it
> doesn't exactly inspire confidence, either. --Mitchell Jones}***

Since you appear to already have your mind made up and are willing to propose the
most implausible explanation possible to support your notion, I think we really
have nothing more to discuss.  Shaking the tree is ok but cutting it down because
you are unwilling to wait for the fruit to ripen is not ok.

Ed Storms



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 19:30:30 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Questions on vortex subsciptions
Resent-Message-ID: <"NZ77F.0.k-1.p8jUt" mx1>
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If you are subscribed to the vortex digest, can you send emails to
<vortex-l eskimo.com>?

I know <vortex-digest eskimo.com> is a separate list, but it gets all the
posts made to <vortex-l eskimo.com>.  Is it true vice versa?  Do digest
readers post to <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <vortex-digest@eskimo.com>, or do
they have no ability to post at all?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 19:39:08 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Question on AC electrode H loading
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At 11:33 PM 6/30/99, Josef Karthauser wrote:
>Pardon me asking but are you baseing this on the work of Stanley Meyer,
>or has it come from somewhere else?

I have seen Meyer's patent on Keelynet, and there has been much discussion
here on vortex about Meyer, his trial for fraud, etc.  I am not an expert
on Meyer, but believe the following is true from what I have seen:

Meyer's approach is VERY different in that:

  (1) his only goal appears to have been to produce hydrogen,
      though he claimed this production was "overunity" and
      thus you could run a car on it.  My approach to overunity
      attack is very different, and synergistic with other fields.
      Meyer had no interest in using his cell for Pyrolysis, catalytic
      reactions, homogenation, cold fusion, crytalization,
      sterilization, etc., as far as I am aware.
      (Gee I didn't include pryrolysis in my prior list.)

  (2) the "mysteries" of his cell producing gas at low input current
      were only mysteries because it appears he didn't understand it.
      Also, he could not produce a positive ou experiment, even though
      he was on trial for fraud (not that I can not produce such either -
      don't forget these are as yet untested ideas -
      though based on much experimental experience.)

  (3) Meyer included diodes in his tank circuit, which massively interefered
      with achieving a high Q.  He was using pulsed DC.

  (4) by using DC Meyer did not and could not take advantage of capacitive
      linkage to the cell, which also eliminates high Q operation, as well
      as use of DC current flows normal to the AC in the cell, use of highly
      corrsive acidic electrolytes, direct capacitve input from mechanical
      armature motion, etc, etc. etc.

  (5) I have never seen use of a metallic slurry, or a slurry comprised
      of dielectrics mixed with conductor, or even a slurry including only
      dielectrics or semiconductors proposed by Meyer or anyone else,
      either with or without capacitive linkage to the cell

  (6)  My approach makes use of much higher voltages in order to achieve
       many "equivalent" layers of electrodes in a small volume in a slurry.
       Though designed for use with a slurry, use of capacitive
       isolation and resonance with an ordinary or even preexisiting
       AC electrolytic cell with metal plate electrodes, should greatly
       improve the efiiciency.

  (7)  My approach uses small particulates as bubble formers and
       bubble scrubbers, so as to avoid electrode blockage

  (8)  My pumped slurry approach provides for better management of
       the products of the process

  (9)  My approach reduces heating effect of rotating water dipoles
       (not a problem for Meyer, since he used DC)
       by inclusion of dielectric particles in the electrolyte

As far as I know these ideas are original to me, though I have clearly
borrowed and applied concepts from others, hopefully in a new and
productive way.  I think at very least it provides fertile grounds for
amateur experimentation.  If

If you check the archives of vortex you will find that I have produced lots
of ideas like this, as have Fred Sparber, and various others. It's just
part of the vortex synergy.  If I hadn't recently spent 24 hours attached
to a heart monitor, I am not sure I would be posting them at this
undeveloped state though.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 20:36:21 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Vital Fluid
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 03:32:45 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <377de116.704576534 mail-hub>
References: <377988AE.2D8AA135 ihug.co.nz> <3781d418.635694400@mail-hub> <3779CCF7.958EC0E6@ihug.co.nz>
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On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 19:53:28 +1200, John Berry wrote:
[snip]
>
>So then would silk be "asotic"? (it is said that silk is asotic)
[snip]
Silk is protein based, and yes, proteins contain nitrogen.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 21:14:19 1999
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From: rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: PLEC: Run 8
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 04:11:22 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <377fe9b8.706786186 mail-hub>
References: <3.0.1.32.19990630150804.00acc9c8 mail.eden.com>
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On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:08:04 -0500, Scott Little wrote:

>Same day service on Run 8!
>
>We used 0.2M K2CO3 and explored all the way down to 70 volts in 6 plateaus.
> Despite correcting for obvious errors and staying on top of the flow rate,
>there's a 1-2% unexplained excess showing.  Could be real excess
>heat...probably is just other errors not corrected yet.
>
>http://www.eden.com/~little/Inc-W/2ndtry/run8.html
>
[snip]
Hi Scott,

Would it be possible to include a graph of the total energy in and out
(i.e. cumulative "power" graphs)?
(Or is it there already, and I just missed it?)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 30 21:24:44 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Novel uses of resonant electrolytic cells (RECs).
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 04:23:08 GMT
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On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:17:21 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote:

>The use of an AC electrolytic cell in a resonant circuit, primarily as the
>capacitance, be it in series or parallel resonance, achieves an efficient
>high energy flux through the cell, especially when operated at a high Q.
>For convenience, let's call such a cell a resonant electrolytic cell (REC).

Hi Horace,

I may well be wrong, but I have a feeling that the AC "current" that
goes through the capacitance of the cell doesn't actually count as
electrolysis current (at least not in the normal sense of electrolysis).
I.e. I don't think it comprises ionic current, and hence doesn't result
in a transport of charges to electrodes, and thus also not in the
formation of gas at electrodes.
(There may however be some phenomenon whereby gas is formed in the fluid
itself).
[snip]
>Second, the prospect of high electrolytic efficiency raises the frequently
>discussed possibility of further attack on the Second Law of Thermodynamics
>by using ambient heat to add to electrolysis efficiency, and thus produce a
>COP over 1.  It is well known that energy from ambient heat contributes to

I also thought for some time that this would be so, however one needs to
also take the other half of the cycle into consideration. I.e. the part
where the hydrogen and oxygen are recombined to form water and
electricity. I fear that the fact that one can get about 1/6 of the
total energy input from the environment in an electrolysis cell may also
mean that one loses at least 1/6 of the energy to heat in a fuel cell.
Ergo, no net gain.

>electroylsis and use of this fact is made by modern electrolysis units by
>operating at a high temperature. The heat energy is contributed at the
>electrodes in the form of vibration of the (H+)-H20 bond in the H3O+
>molecules in close proximity to the cathode.  A high temperature REC,
>operated in a closed highly insulated environment, with the electrolyte
>acting as a heat dump for a heat engine, might close the energy loop.

Thus, I suspect that at best one would break even under this scenario.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>

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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 00:02:53 -0500
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Case & Arata
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[snip]

>>
>>  What is the point of nit picking the calculations?
>>
>> ***{I strongly doubt that this experiment is "over unity," and I am probing
>> for weakness. (If you don't shake a tree, you will never know what might
>> have fallen out. :-) I would add that if the people who performed this
>> experiment really are the source of the erroneous 5x10^16 number, then who
>> knows where else they messed up? Granted, everybody makes mistakes, and so
>> this example does not refute the experiment; but you have to admit that it
>> doesn't exactly inspire confidence, either. --Mitchell Jones}***
>
>Since you appear to already have your mind made up

***{As I have noted previously, I define "my opinion" as "the conclusion of
the strongest argument I know on an issue." Result: all anyone has to do is
kick me around long enough to convince me that his position is stronger,
and I will switch sides. In your particular case, you have already swayed
my opinion once--concerning whether uranium contamination originating 10
years ago could explain the Russ George results--and thus your insinuation
that I am close minded is belied by the facts. --Mitchell Jones}***

  and are willing to propose the
>most implausible explanation possible to support your notion

***{I find it far less implausible that a few cubic millimeters of
high-helium coal, grease, or oil could occasionally make their way into
these catalysts than that they could support thermonuclear fusion within
spitting distance of standard conditions of temperature and pressure, and I
will maintain that position until someone convincingly argues otherwise.
--Mitchell Jones}***

, I think we really
>have nothing more to discuss.

***{As you wish. I am appreciative of the comments you have made thus far,
and of the gentlemanly manner in which you have made them. --Mitchell
Jones}***

Shaking the tree is ok but cutting it down because
>you are unwilling to wait for the fruit to ripen is not ok.

***{Words need truth to give them sharpness. Without it, they will not cut.
Thus if Russ George's experiment is sound, neither I nor anyone else can
bring it down. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Ed Storms