From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  1 01:37:33 1999
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From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: MIT, Video-Games, CF
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Knuke said:

>> Businesses have just exercised too much influence
over the lives of the people that they purport to serve.  I could give you
too many real-world examples of this, some of them almost unbelievable. <<

While I agree with his sentiments, and while the situation seems to be
going the same way here in the UK, I'm not so sure whether the state-funded
arrangement would be any better with politicians pressing all the buttons.

The other alternative where the universities are funded entirely by student
fees and bequests etc is probably out of the question these days, so we
seem to be stuck with business calling the tune.

Was it not always the case that he who pays the piper calls the tune?

Norman Horwood

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  1 03:50:32 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: MIT, Video-Games, CF
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 06:52:38 -0400
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>Knuke said:
>
>>> Businesses have just exercised too much influence
>over the lives of the people that they purport to serve.  I could give you
>too many real-world examples of this, some of them almost unbelievable. <<
>
>While I agree with his sentiments, and while the situation seems to be
>going the same way here in the UK, I'm not so sure whether the state-funded
>arrangement would be any better with politicians pressing all the buttons.

I disagree.  At least with a publically funded educational system, the
electorate has the opportunity to exercise their right to determine the way
in which their children are being educated.  They can also voice any
disapproval or dissatifaction that they may have in the courts and other
public  forums.  When the schools are a defacto extension of the business
community, all decisions are made behind closed doors, and the public has no
voice in the policymaking process, as is seen in too many cases today.  Of
course, the success of any publically funded educational effort requires a
fully informed public that has access to a free press, a choice of
candidates that is not under the influence of any particular special
interest, and a populace that is capable of rational thought in the first place.

I'll sure be glad when Elvis gets here.

>
>The other alternative where the universities are funded entirely by student
>fees and bequests etc is probably out of the question these days, so we
>seem to be stuck with business calling the tune.
>
>Was it not always the case that he who pays the piper calls the tune?
>
>Norman Horwood
>
>
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  1 05:31:47 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Electrolysis Cell, Thermal Accumulator?
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To:Vortex

Speculation:

If the electron flow into the cell is dragging internally generated heat
(Qo)
from the power supply through the electrical leads (adiabaticaly), then the
cell should act as a heat accumulator?
                                   <---  e + Qo - Q
                                _______________
                                |                             |
                             + |                             | +
        Qo in ---> |power supply|      |electrolysis cell|   I^2R + Q
                                |                             | -
                                |_____________ _|
                                   e + Qo  ---->

If the leads are cold-trapped or heated, the rate of accumlated heat in
the electrolysis cell should change accordingly?

Regards,

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  1 05:40:57 1999
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
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Subject: Re: MIT, Video-Games, CF
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Once upon a year, in the legendary past, the function of education was to
pass on cultural knowledge to the next generation. Colleges were paid for by
student fees and alumni endowments.

It is said that in the UK the "public" schools existed to groom the next
generation of leaders (read 'politicians') who were dedicated to expansion
of the empire and preservation of the status quo.

Nowadays students investing in a college career do so with the expectation
of lucrative employment. Employers are not interested in providing remedial
education to college graduates whose skills don't match needs. Not
surprising that businesses would have an interest in what is taught. The
time of the liberally educated gentleman or lady who would learn on the job
has gone.

This seems to be lamented by those who wish subsidized education to promote
their agenda.

It has also been said that one of the reasons for the fumbling governments
of Africa is that their young leaders went to college in England -- seat of
a fading Empire -- and got educated in socialism and state control as the
way of the future. Then when the colonial domination ended, there was great
temptation to follow the European route and have big enterprises like steel
mills, whether such were appropriate to the country's stage of development
or not. They were helped in this delusion by the good intentions of
international aid organizations, with the result that many of these
countries were saddled with useless facilities and monumental debts.

Aspects of MIT have been corrupted, as documented on vortex and by Gene
Mallove. It does not follow that all of it is corrupt, nor that a good
technical education can't be had there. MIT is not necessarily the greatest
technical school any more. If you are interested in robotics, for example,
Carnegie-Mellon is the place to be.

Mike Carrell



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  1 12:28:04 1999
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From: Ross Tessien <tessien oro.net>
Subject: Re: MIT, Video-Games, CF
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IMO, corporations have been one of the most important contributors to our
increase in standard of living.  They have successfully developed
techniques for mass production that allow the average person in developed
countries to purchase goods that used to be reserved for kings and queens.
It is true that they have done some horrible things concerning pollution
and that the workers many times earn very little money.  But over time,
even that changes.  It used to be that Japan was the place where the poor
people lived and things were manufactured for cheap.  Those efforts made
them one of the wealthiest countries in the world.

Without corporations and the automation techniques they have developed,
mankind would starve to death and totally pillage the remaining resources
of the earth.  Corporation bashing is fashionable, but ask yourself, do
people live longer today than they did 200 years ago?  Does the average
"poor" person have more or less than he would have 200 years ago?

The answer is that we live longer, and can do more things and enjoy more
prosperity than ever before.  These things have resulted from the
automation processes being put into action by corporations.  Individuals
could not afford to accomplish these things.

People in America ought to wake up and take a look at life in other third
world countries before they gripe about what they wish they had.  People
look at themselves and say "I am working 50 hours a week and only have this
pitiful 3/2 house and junky 1995 cars" ignorant of the fact that they are
wealthier than 90+ percent of the population of mother earth.

Anytime you think you are poor financially, just take a look at people
today who live in dirt floor grass huts, eating the chickens they chase out
of the house toward the chopping block because they don't have a refrigerator.

rt



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  1 13:40:20 1999
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Ross Tessien wrote:

> IMO, corporations have been one of the most important contributors to our
> increase in standard of living.  They have successfully developed
> techniques for mass production that allow the average person in developed
> countries to purchase goods that used to be reserved for kings and queens.
> It is true that they have done some horrible things concerning pollution
> and that the workers many times earn very little money.  But over time,
> even that changes.  It used to be that Japan was the place where the poor
> people lived and things were manufactured for cheap.  Those efforts made
> them one of the wealthiest countries in the world.
>
> Without corporations and the automation techniques they have developed,
> mankind would starve to death and totally pillage the remaining resources
> of the earth.  Corporation bashing is fashionable, but ask yourself, do
> people live longer today than they did 200 years ago?  Does the average
> "poor" person have more or less than he would have 200 years ago?
>
> The answer is that we live longer, and can do more things and enjoy more
> prosperity than ever before.  These things have resulted from the
> automation processes being put into action by corporations.  Individuals
> could not afford to accomplish these things.
>
> People in America ought to wake up and take a look at life in other third
> world countries before they gripe about what they wish they had.  People
> look at themselves and say "I am working 50 hours a week and only have this
> pitiful 3/2 house and junky 1995 cars" ignorant of the fact that they are
> wealthier than 90+ percent of the population of mother earth.
>
> Anytime you think you are poor financially, just take a look at people
> today who live in dirt floor grass huts, eating the chickens they chase out
> of the house toward the chopping block because they don't have a refrigerator.
>
> rt

All you have said is very true and important.  However, I suggest you have missed
an important point.  All of these advantages came to us because our society
adopted certain values.  Other societies which did not adopt such values are not
as well off, Russia for example.  These values included a separation of Church
and State, and a separation of Business and Government.  The former is still
intact but the latter is breaking down.  The consequence of such a breakdown was
seen in the late 1800s and the early early 1900s when business, i.e. capitalism,
had control of the government.   Those were not good times for many people.  Now
we find society returning to the same condition and have to hope for a different
behavior on the part of business.  Frankly, I do not see evidence for any change
in attitude.  Power and greed still are the main driving forces and will, in the
long run, undo all the good we now enjoy. This time business is starting at the
school level in addition to buying the government, their usual route to power.
This is possible because of a vacuum left by the ignorant majority in society.
In the future, the young who are educated in such a system will be taught to
accept the new conditions and will have value, while those who do not have this
education will be cast aside.  Once again, we will have a two tier society with
all of the conflict this promises.  My point is, things are great now because of
past wise decisions, but the future does not look good if the education system is
taken over by business.  A separation of power is essential in education just
like it is essential in government

Ed Storms




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  1 13:59:52 1999
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: MIT, Video-Games, CF
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At 02:40 PM 8/1/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:
>All you have said is very true and important.  However, I suggest you have
missed
>an important point.  All of these advantages came to us because our society
>adopted certain values.  Other societies which did not adopt such values
are not
>as well off, Russia for example.  These values included a separation of
Church
>and State, and a separation of Business and Government.  The former is still
>intact but the latter is breaking down.  The consequence of such a
breakdown was
>seen in the late 1800s and the early early 1900s when business, i.e.
capitalism,
>had control of the government.   Those were not good times for many
people.  Now
>we find society returning to the same condition and have to hope for a
different
>behavior on the part of business.  Frankly, I do not see evidence for any
change
>in attitude.  Power and greed still are the main driving forces and will,
in the
>long run, undo all the good we now enjoy. This time business is starting
at the
>school level in addition to buying the government, their usual route to
power.
>This is possible because of a vacuum left by the ignorant majority in
society.
>In the future, the young who are educated in such a system will be taught to
>accept the new conditions and will have value, while those who do not have
this
>education will be cast aside.  Once again, we will have a two tier society
with
>all of the conflict this promises.  My point is, things are great now
because of
>past wise decisions, but the future does not look good if the education
system is
>taken over by business.  A separation of power is essential in education just
>like it is essential in government
>
>Ed Storms



   I might have agreed with this before the reality of 'politically correct'
ignorance.  But with Jay Leno interviewing hundreds of people who dont know
what polio is, who dont know who fought the War of 1812, who cant recognize
the vice president or even know how many states are in the US, 
it is clear that teachers today simply dont care that many of
their students dont know the Caspian Sea from chromium.

   Our present government has proven that it tolerates things which
competitive business simply will not.

   Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  1 14:06:20 1999
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From: Ross Tessien <tessien oro.net>
Subject: Re: MIT, Video-Games, CF
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 My point is, things are great now 
>because of
>past wise decisions, but the future does not look good if the education 
>system is
>taken over by business.  A separation of power is essential in education just
>like it is essential in government
>
>Ed Storms

Today, I just can't fathom any corporation making a significant
contribution to the brain washing of a society of children.  There is
simply too much information.  There are indeed a large number of people who
enjoy life as "sheep" following the lead of others and doing as they are
told.  But there is increasing freedom for "wolves" to do as they please,
and to pursue scientific, intellectual, and artistic endeavors as they
choose.  Vortex list is just one example of such a freedom.  Schools only
make up a small percentage of a persons education, and intelligent
individuals are nearly equally capable of putting information onto the net
as are corporations.  They are additionally free to post nearly anything
they choose, regardless of what you or I may think about their thoughts.

The gist is, Freedom of Speach is becoming an International Freedom,
enjoyed by all who can gain access to the Internet.

Finally, the most important comodity on the planet is energy.  Our work is
aimed at providing a new form of energy to be enjoyed by all.  The goal is
sufficiently large that it will be conquered, if it can be conquered.  I
for one have zero doubt that it can be, and hence that it will be, and
soon.  Each on this list has a differring level of confidence in that
assertion, but I am free to voice my opinion.  This freedom is what will
lead ultimately to an improvement in the condition of all mankind.

Free speech, combined with a significant reduction in the cost of energy,
will revolutionize our planet in the coming two decades.  Wars will not be
fought over energy in the future, as they have been in the past.  

This is an exciting time to live.

rt



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  1 18:01:31 1999
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Subject: Re: MIT, Video-Games, CF
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:55:27 -0000
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Ross wrote:

>Has Tech Talk ever published the fact that MIT holds several Cold Fusion
>Patents? 

No.

> Each patent these days costs about $10,000 and I think they have
>3 if I recall, so that means they spent ~$30,000 over a period of years
>following all the negative talk.
>
>It boggles my brain that all this talk is going on and MIT remains on the
>"High Ground".  The reason is, I never read that their leaders are
>confronted with the fact that they have invested in patents in this
>technology that they treat as bogus.  

These patents were assigned to others, I believe. Mitch Swartz knows more 
about this, I think. I don't know the details. But CF was never mentioned 
in them, even though they are obviously CF patents -- at least one that I 
have written about is.

>You can't have it both ways on that
>one.  Either you are confident that CF is bogus or you aren't.  If you are,
>fine, then say so and act in a manner that is in accord with such a belief.
> If you aren't certain it is bogus, then fine too.  Say you don't think it
>is real, but admit that you have invested in patents just in case it is.

It is all currupt bullshit at MIT on the issue of CF. There are no ethics 
whatever.
>
>Their actions are well in accord with the business world, which would deny
>any validity while research was going on.  But their actions are totally in
>discord with the acedemic society where you are to publish what you learn
>and say what you think. 

I think the academic world is far more currupt than the business world.  
Academics just pretend to be Snow White.


Gene Mallove
>
>rt
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  1 18:01:33 1999
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From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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>Not a wise policy, in my humble opinion.  Could be
>considered indicative of the quality of education that the students are
>receiving, too.  Why would any student would want to be associated with an
>institution that has it's head completely buried in the sand, I don't know.
>If I were Mr. Bose, I'd consider some alternatives as to where I donated my
>money.
>
>Knuke

I'm sure he did.

Gene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  1 18:49:21 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Subject: Re: Mizuno progress
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Jed,

In your report dated Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:04:44 -0400 you said that Mizuno 
(Ohmori?) was getting 76 kJ out, or 112% of input.  That's a good joule 
total, but not as good as the ones you reported before.  What happened?

You also reported that the best excess heat appeared at the end of the 
highest voltage run, and that the excess heat was highest as the tungsten 
cathode reached the melting point.

I believe the numbers, but this doesn't sound like a serious excess heat 
experiment to me.  If Mizuno and Ohmori were serious about excess heat, 
they'd be running in the best regime short of self-destruction.  It sounds as 
if they're primarily interested in other things.  Neutrons?  Transmutations?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  1 19:23:36 1999
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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199908020220.VAA11672 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: MIT, Video-Games, CF
In-Reply-To: <37A4B0BD.F6B6192E ix.netcom.com> from Edmund Storms at "Aug 1, 99 02:40:49 pm"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Ed Storms wrote:
> The consequence of such a breakdown was seen in the late 1800s and the
> early early 1900s when business, i.e. capitalism, had control of the
> government.   Those were not good times for many people.

That's a particularly facile view of history.  It presumes (contrary
to evidence) that times were better pre-1800's and were made worse by
those evil captialists.

In fact, in any decade, in any century, capitalist societies have
outperformed command economies in terms of growth of the median income.

And since this thread makes allegations about the superiority of government
schools, one need only point to the inconvenient and indisputable fact
that private schools outperform public schools often at 1/3rd the cost
per pupil (in good neighborhoods and bad, so the "creme of the crop"
excuse is deflated.)  Even homeschooled children outperform public
schooled children -- at all grade levels.

So if you want to base arguments for command economies on the lessons
of history, you'll have to resort to ficticious history.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  2 05:54:32 1999
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At 09:34 AM 7/31/99 +0100, Cornwall RO wrote:

I'm not comfortable with something charged spining around and not
emitting.  Why doesn't the zpe get continuously tapped? 

Scott Little wrote:

Hi Remi,  You might be interested to know that
Puthoff has shown that the electron DOES radiate
but that it is continually ABSORBING an equal flux of
energy from the ZPF ...

Hi Scott,

In "Seeing Red", Halton Arp suggests that the electron is
absorbing energy from the ZPF at a greater rate than the
electron is radiating energy:

On page 108, Arp writes "In 1964, Fred Hoyle and Jayant Narlikar
proposed ... a theory of mass which had its origin in Mach's
principle ...  As time goes on it [the electron] receives signals
from a volume of space that enlarges as the velocity of light ...
Its mass grows in proportion to the number and strength of the
signals it receives."

So where does the electron's additional mass come from?  On
page 228 Arp writes "... creation of matter ...  We must mean
the transformation of previously existing mass-energy.  Probably
this means materialization from a previously diffused state -- a
concept which would relate well to quantum physics."

I have been reading Arp in my study of the mysteries of red shift.

Jack Smith

PS:  An interesting idea from Arp is that the Atlantic rift could
be the result of matter creation, and that there is no need to postulate
subduction to keep the mass of the earth constant.  Of course, how then
do we account for the rise of the Himalaya mountains, so critical for
earth's climate in the last 65 million years?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  2 08:01:55 1999
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From: "e lewis" <elewis1 hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: formation of anomalous states in micrometer size areas on electrodes
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 08:00:06 PDT
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Hi.  This was a very interesting post.  Tell me more about Hutchinson, if 
you could.

Sorry I waited so long to reply.

Does he try to do transmutation with this method?  Actually, this shows that 
atoms may behave very anomalously, which is the reason cold fusion happens.

The atoms may merge together or even pass through each other, in the way 
ball lightning does.

I wish more research would be done on this.  I know of a few other reports 
similar to this.

For example, Benjamin Franklin reported this effect with electrical 
discharge.
Ed


>From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: formation of anomalous states in micrometer size areas on  
>electrodes
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:10:25 -1000
>
>e lewis wrote:
>
><snip>
>
> > The layer of liquid is anomalous because it may exist below the melting
> > point of the metal.  And the atoms behave anomalously.
>
><snip>
>
> > This
> > happens to metal at anomalously cool temperatures.  For example 
>sometimes
> > metal objects with high melting points which are struck by lightning are
> > found and the metal is melted into a glob but highly flammable material
> > touching the metal is not even scorched.
>
><snip>
>
> > I think this is why Nassisi's windows kept breaking.  These waves 
>themselves
> > are anomalous since they seem to be associated with time changes and 
>effects
> > on material that are gravity or magnetic like.
>
>Kept thinking of the Hutchison phenomena while reading this. I saw the
>video. Of course the events on the video could have been faked without too
>much trouble, but I do get the impression that they probably weren't. He 
>has
>racks full of hard metal parts rent asunder and sometimes liquified at
>apparently low temperatures by some anomalous electrical process. Very
>strange. I sure wish someone could get a solid handle on the conditions 
>that
>cause these things to occur.
>
>This kind of thing defines what the "fringe" is all about. Astonishing and
>"impossible" phenomena that just seems to keep popping up, yet managing to
>avoid hard scrutiny by being so irreproducible on demand. Very frustrating.
>
>Besides everything else implied by these reports, the manufacturing
>possibilities for casting and forming fancy metals at low temperature and
>pressure are mind-boggling.
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI
>


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  2 08:02:57 1999
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Weren't you experimenting with ball lightning plasmoids the last few years?



>From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: formation of anomalous states in micrometer size areas on  
>electrodes
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:10:25 -1000
>
>e lewis wrote:
>
><snip>
>
> > The layer of liquid is anomalous because it may exist below the melting
> > point of the metal.  And the atoms behave anomalously.
>
><snip>
>
> > This
> > happens to metal at anomalously cool temperatures.  For example 
>sometimes
> > metal objects with high melting points which are struck by lightning are
> > found and the metal is melted into a glob but highly flammable material
> > touching the metal is not even scorched.
>
><snip>
>
> > I think this is why Nassisi's windows kept breaking.  These waves 
>themselves
> > are anomalous since they seem to be associated with time changes and 
>effects
> > on material that are gravity or magnetic like.
>
>Kept thinking of the Hutchison phenomena while reading this. I saw the
>video. Of course the events on the video could have been faked without too
>much trouble, but I do get the impression that they probably weren't. He 
>has
>racks full of hard metal parts rent asunder and sometimes liquified at
>apparently low temperatures by some anomalous electrical process. Very
>strange. I sure wish someone could get a solid handle on the conditions 
>that
>cause these things to occur.
>
>This kind of thing defines what the "fringe" is all about. Astonishing and
>"impossible" phenomena that just seems to keep popping up, yet managing to
>avoid hard scrutiny by being so irreproducible on demand. Very frustrating.
>
>Besides everything else implied by these reports, the manufacturing
>possibilities for casting and forming fancy metals at low temperature and
>pressure are mind-boggling.
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI
>


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  2 09:04:46 1999
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 12:03:03 EDT
Subject: Re: MIT, Video-Games, CF
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In a message dated 8/1/99 5:59:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
editor infinite-energy.com writes:

<< 
 I think the academic world is far more corrupt than the business world.  
 Academics just pretend to be Snow White.
  >>
Hi Gene,

You are right on.  Having had careers in both worlds (including MIT) I reach 
the same conclusion.  

Morality seems to thrive in an environment with good negative feedback and 
disappear when the feedback loop is opened. In business, you can only sell 
B.S. for so long before the P and L statement has the last word.  In 
academia, with tenure, and very little measurement or consequence of 
performance, there is not much morality; not much immorality either -- just 
amorality.

Regards,

Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  2 09:16:38 1999
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X-Authentication-Warning: euston.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 17:15:40 +0100 (BST)
From: Cornwall RO <R.O.Cornwall city.ac.uk>
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Thank you Scott,
Sorry for the delay in corresponding as problems with unix servers.
Do you put any of your research online?

Quick think, you still need to resolve this wave particle duality. I shall
return to a book that gave an account of de Broglie's work. From
Einstein's photelectric effect, scattering and then some mathematical
slight of hand we arrive at matter waves. I don't like it one bit but it
seems correct.
Remi.

On Sat, 31 Jul 1999, Scott Little wrote:

> At 09:34 AM 7/31/99 +0100, Cornwall RO wrote:
> 
> >I'm not comfortable with something charged spining around and not
> >emitting.  Why doesn't the zpe get continuously tapped? 
> 
> Hi Remi,  You might be interested to know that Puthoff has shown that the
> electron DOES radiate but that it is continually ABSORBING an equal flux of
> energy from the ZPF (H. E. Puthoff, "Ground State of Hydrogen as a
> Zero-Point-Fluctuation-Determined State," Phys. Rev. D 35, 3266 (1987)).
> 
> In this paper, he assumes that the electron travels in a circular orbit at
> the Bohr radius and everything works out beautifully.  Most of the
> criticism that has been levelled at this paper centers around the
"fact"
> (MJ would say "poisonous lie" here) that QM predicts a completely different
> location probability distribution for the electron.
> 
> 
> Scott Little 
> EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
> 512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
> little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  2 09:26:42 1999
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 11:28:43 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Mizuno progress
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Tom Stolper asks:

	In your report dated Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:04:44 -0400 you said
	that Mizuno  (Ohmori?) was getting 76 kJ out, or 112% of input. 
	That's a good joule  total, but not as good as the ones you
	reported before.  What happened?

That's Mizuno -- I have not described Ohmori's recent work. The previous
tests were done with flow calorimetry. The cathode was held in the heat
producing regime for 1000 seconds (16 minutes). Several of these 1000
seconds samples were combined to determine optimum current density and
operating temperatures. In the experiments I observed and reported on July
19, 1 kg of water was driven from room temperature to boiling in 20
minutes, when the experiment ended. The cell was in the heat generating
regime for ~5 minutes. The 112% is the average for the entire 20 minutes.
While heat was being generated it sometimes jumpsed up to ~300% excess for
a minute or two.


	I believe the numbers, but this doesn't sound like a serious
	excess heat  experiment to me.

It is much easier and better than flow calorimetry for this experiment. I
believe these results more than the flow calorimetry ones. With other kinds
of CF, in which the cathode takes hours or weeks to turn on, this kind of
calorimetry would not work, so flow calorimetry is a good choice.


	It sounds as  if they're primarily interested in other things. 
	Neutrons?  Transmutations?

They are interested in heat and transmutations. There are no significant
neutrons. they would be interested if there were any, but there aren't.
They have a high quality neutron detector from NTT, which shows nothing.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  2 09:27:05 1999
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Subject: Re: MIT, Video-Games, CF
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John Logajan writes:

	And since this thread makes allegations about the superiority of
	government schools, one need only point to the inconvenient and
	indisputable fact that private schools outperform public schools
	often at 1/3rd the cost per pupil (in good neighborhoods and
	bad, so the "creme of the crop" excuse is deflated.)

This does not follow. A school in a good neighborhood can also "skim,"
attracting the cream of the crop. The best high school in Atlanta is
Chamblee High. It happens to be a few blocks for my house, in a reasonably
nice neighborhood, but they might have located it anywhere in the county.
It is the best because it skims. It is a so-called academic "magnet" public
school, which accepts two or three students from each public school in
DeKalb county. Other magnet schools specialize in language, performing
arts, etc. The budget per student is far less than the elite private
schools, and considerably less than the public schools in rich
neighborhoods, but in SAT scores and academic competitions Chamblee is
consistently way ahead. You can tell the budget is low by looking at the
beat-up facilities, the leaks in the roof and bathrooms, and the ancient
air conditioner which frequently fails. The teachers are paid the same as
others in the county public schools, but it is choice assignment for them.

The difference is not in facilities or budget, it is in the students -- and
the parents, and teachers. Mostly the students. Their backgrounds range
from one step above living on the street to wealthy. I do not know the
distribution compared to the overall city average. I do not think there are
many Buckhead mansion super-rich kids.

The public schools in the rich Atlanta neighborhoods look like hotels or
upscale office buildings, with carpets, video facilities in meeting rooms
and so on. I walked into one a few months ago, and I thought I was in the
wrong building. The public schools in poor neighborhoods are much worse
than Chamblee, with few books in the library, overflowing sewage in the
bathrooms, and no air conditioner at all. It would be difficult to study
under such adverse circumstances. The kids who claw their way out of these
schools into Chamblee are motivated to study -- and they do. See the book
"Savage Inequities" for details. Quoting a review of that book:

	Reports of schools in black and Hispanic communities from New York to
	California-- where not only books, crayons, and lab equipment but also
	toilet paper are rationed--are painful to read. School buildings turn
	into swamps when it rains or must be closed (or, worse yet, are kept
	open) when sewage backs up into kitchens and cafeterias. A school in
	the South Bronx is set up in a windowless skating rink next to a
	mortuary, with class sizes up to 35, lunch in three shifts, a library
	of 700 books, and no playground. The school population is 90-percent
	black and Hispanic. Yet it is only a few minutes north to a more
	affluent part of the Bronx and a public school surrounded by flowering
	trees, two playing fields, and a playground, with a planetarium and an
	8,000-book library.

We have hell-hole schools like this all of the country, and yet some people
still wonder why children do poorly. I suggest you visit one or two slum
schools. (My brother taught in one for many years -- not as bad as these,
but bad enough.) You will never wonder again why kids do badly or why
homeschooling or any other alternative is better. You will be amazed that
the kids learn to read and survive.

In Japan, all public school facilities are precisely the same, nationwide.
The teachers' salaries, textbooks, bathrooms etc., are the same in the slum
schools and the rich schools. Janitorial standards are the same: the kids
themselves do the cleaning and scrubbing, from grade school to high school.
Naturally, rich kids do better on average on standardized tests, but the
gap is much smaller than it is in the U.S. Private schools are about on the
same level as the better public schools. There is no home schooling and few
religious schools.


	Even homeschooled children outperform public schooled children
	-- at all grade levels.

Not compared to Chamblee High!


Mitchell Swartz writes:

	I might have agreed with this before the reality of 'politically
	correct' ignorance.  But with Jay Leno interviewing hundreds of
	people who dont know what polio is, who dont know who fought the
	War of 1812, who cant recognize the vice president or even know
	how many states are in the US . . .

And their are even professionals PhDs and doctors who cant dont or wont
punctuate or use apostrophes rite. Imagine that!

- Jed

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Ross Tessien wrote:

>  My point is, things are great now
> >because of
> >past wise decisions, but the future does not look good if the education
> >system is
> >taken over by business.  A separation of power is essential in education just
> >like it is essential in government
> >
> >Ed Storms
>
> Today, I just can't fathom any corporation making a significant
> contribution to the brain washing of a society of children.  There is
> simply too much information.  There are indeed a large number of people who
> enjoy life as "sheep" following the lead of others and doing as they are
> told.  But there is increasing freedom for "wolves" to do as they please,
> and to pursue scientific, intellectual, and artistic endeavors as they
> choose.  Vortex list is just one example of such a freedom.  Schools only
> make up a small percentage of a persons education, and intelligent
> individuals are nearly equally capable of putting information onto the net
> as are corporations.  They are additionally free to post nearly anything
> they choose, regardless of what you or I may think about their thoughts.
>
> The gist is, Freedom of Speach is becoming an International Freedom,
> enjoyed by all who can gain access to the Internet.
>
> Finally, the most important comodity on the planet is energy.  Our work is
> aimed at providing a new form of energy to be enjoyed by all.  The goal is
> sufficiently large that it will be conquered, if it can be conquered.  I
> for one have zero doubt that it can be, and hence that it will be, and
> soon.  Each on this list has a differring level of confidence in that
> assertion, but I am free to voice my opinion.  This freedom is what will
> lead ultimately to an improvement in the condition of all mankind.
>
> Free speech, combined with a significant reduction in the cost of energy,
> will revolutionize our planet in the coming two decades.  Wars will not be
> fought over energy in the future, as they have been in the past.
>
> This is an exciting time to live.
>
> rt

I agree, freedom of speech is essential.  However, this is not the only or
perhaps the main issue.  Once this freedom exists, the question is what will be
spoken?  People discuss what they know and understand. This knowledge and
understanding depends on what they were taught. As you all have experienced on
Vortex, where great freedom exists, some of the discussions border on nonsense
because the speaker is ignorant of facts or even of how to make a logical
connection between facts.  In addition, what is discussed is colored by emotional
considerations.  For example, discussions between the Albanians and Serbs are
colored by paranoia and suspicion, much like how some people on Vortex respond.
My point is, what is taught is determined by who runs the system.  If the
government runs the system, as is now the case, what is taught will be valuable
to the government, i.e. to all of us.  If business runs the system, what is
taught will be valuable to business, i.e. not to all of us.

I also agree, the general education system is a mess and needs to be greatly
improved.  However, our destiny will be determined by people who have achieved an
education, people who because of this education acquire power, money, and
influence.  The ignorant will be ignored or manipulated.  In addition, the
factual knowledge these people have acquired is only part of what will determine
our future.  How this knowledge is applied is equally important.  For example,
will this knowledge be used for the benefit of the general society or mostly for
the power elite.  Thus, an understanding of "values" is also important.
Graduates of MIT or Texas A & M are examples of people who will have the ability
to influence our future. What are these collages teaching about values?  The only
way we have of answering this question is to see how the teachers behave.  In the
case of MIT, we see teachers lying, manipulating data, and viewing new ideas as a
threat to their own self interest.  At Texas A & M we have teachers trying to
silence a distinguished professor who was trying to investigate a new, but
unaccepted idea.  In other words, these schools encourage teachers, who by their
example, promote dishonesty and a willingness to protect their own narrow self
interest  These are the very values which lead to so much trouble when they are
applied by business to protect the bottom line.  We need people who are taught to
value honesty, to explore new ideas, and to see how these ideas can be applied
for everyone’s benefit rather than as a threat to a few.  Only the universities
have this power, a responsibility which in two cases has been ignored.
Fortunately, this behavior is still not widespread.  I worry that this behavior
is a trend which will eventually infect all universities.

Ed Storms




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Ed Storms wrote:

>My point is, what is taught is determined by who runs the system.
>If the government runs the system, as is now the case, what is
>taught will be valuable to the government, i.e. to all of us.=20
>If business runs the system, what is taught will be valuable
>to business, i.e. not to all of us.

Yes, although the 'all of us' part is in theory. Perhaps more =
importantly, I would add:

The important difference between the above two cases is that we, as =
citizens, have no direct authority over how or what business does. But =
all of us do have the right (and the duty) to excercise oversight over =
what the government does.

The trick is to get the government more representative of the will of =
the people. That is a difficult thing, but it is certainly not =
accomplished by throwing it out and substituting institutions =
(corporations) that have not even theoretical accountability to the =
citizens.

Dan Quickert

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  2 10:20:50 1999
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 13:20:15 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Mizuno progress
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I wrote:

>The previous
>tests were done with flow calorimetry. The cathode was held in the heat
>producing regime for 1000 seconds (16 minutes). Several of these 1000
>seconds samples were combined to determine optimum current density and
>operating temperatures.

Correction: The cell was held at a particular regime for 1000 seconds.
Sometimes it would be heat producing and sometimes not.

The large over-unity results reported previously were from the optimized
samples. Many of the 1000 second samples showed no excess.

- Jed




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  2 10:31:22 1999
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From: Ross Tessien <tessien oro.net>
Subject: Re: MIT, Video-Games, CF
In-Reply-To: <37A5C6F0.47891936 ix.netcom.com>
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 Thus, an understanding of "values" is also important.
>Graduates of MIT or Texas A & M are examples of people who will have the 
>ability
>to influence our future. What are these collages teaching about values?  The 
>only
>way we have of answering this question is to see how the teachers behave.  
>In the
>case of MIT, we see teachers lying, manipulating data, and viewing new ideas 
>as a
>threat to their own self interest.  At Texas A & M we have teachers trying to
>silence a distinguished professor who was trying to investigate a new, but
>unaccepted idea.  In other words, these schools encourage teachers, who by 
>their
>example, promote dishonesty and a willingness to protect their own narrow self
>interest  These are the very values which lead to so much trouble when
they are
>applied by business to protect the bottom line.  We need people who are 
>taught to
>value honesty, to explore new ideas, and to see how these ideas can be applied
>for everyone’s benefit rather than as a threat to a few.  Only the
universities
>have this power, a responsibility which in two cases has been ignored.
>Fortunately, this behavior is still not widespread.  I worry that this
behavior
>is a trend which will eventually infect all universities.

It is clear that these issues in fact do worry you from many of your
writtings.  Not just on vortex, but as well in your papers where your
dismay at the system is clear.  

I would encourage you to recognize that progress takes time to digest at
all levels.  And to recognize that the professors involved in the scandals
mentioned above, and noted all too well by Mallove etc., are in their eyes,
not scandals.  They are mistaken, but they are convinced that they are on
the right side of the fence and that we are mistaken in the CF industry.
There is a difference between someone that understands a truth to be so,
yet professes it to be false, and someone who believes a truth to be false,
and professes so.  The MIT and other fiasco's are the result of the latter
example, though one can clearly and correctly assert blame in their failure
to openly consider the evidence.  A failure to correctly analyze something
is SIGNIFICANTLY different from a bold face lie.  These guys have convinced
themselves that CF is BS, and are acting on that belief.

Another thing I would assert is the fact that despite the turmoil that has
been bestowed on Bokris and others, the truth is winning and the oppression
is failing.  Hence, the "worry" you feel is IMO, not justified.  The
message about CF has made it out into the industry of the world, and
various corporations (mine being one) take the message seriously and are
acting on this new belief structure.  

Therefore, assuming that CF is in fact real, nature will reward
corporations like mine with success and eventual profits.  And history will
reward those who endured the period of turmoil.  In the end, this past
decade will be remembered as the short period of transition from the fossil
fuel age to the nuclear age.  Indeed, this century will be remembered as
having given birth to the new age of technology whence these new energy and
other technologies came.

As for energy, the Internet and freedom of speech will spring forth
triumphant, and those that failed to carefully consider that they might
have been wrong will have been exposed as arrogant bafoons, too timid to
seriously investigate the depth of their own fallability.

To make progress in science, one must always assume that what one knows is
wrong.  Otherwise, all you can hope to learn is what is already understood.
 For this, it is more rapid to just read the books.  Progress requires
reading the mind of God.

rt




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  2 11:18:50 1999
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At 12:25 PM 8/2/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Mitchell Swartz writes:
>	I might have agreed with this before the reality of 'politically
>	correct' ignorance.  But with Jay Leno interviewing hundreds of
>	people who dont know what polio is, who dont know who fought the
>	War of 1812, who cant recognize the vice president or even know
>	how many states are in the US . . .
>
>And their (sic) are even professionals PhDs and doctors who cant 
> dont or wont punctuate or use apostrophes rite. Imagine that!
>- Jed


  their?    rite?  

           LOL.........

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  2 11:26:07 1999
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Ross Tessien wrote:

>  Thus, an understanding of "values" is also important.
> >Graduates of MIT or Texas A & M are examples of people who will have the
> >ability
> >to influence our future. What are these collages teaching about values?  The
> >only
> >way we have of answering this question is to see how the teachers behave.
> >In the
> >case of MIT, we see teachers lying, manipulating data, and viewing new ideas
> >as a
> >threat to their own self interest.  At Texas A & M we have teachers trying to
> >silence a distinguished professor who was trying to investigate a new, but
> >unaccepted idea.  In other words, these schools encourage teachers, who by
> >their
> >example, promote dishonesty and a willingness to protect their own narrow self
> >interest  These are the very values which lead to so much trouble when
> they are
> >applied by business to protect the bottom line.  We need people who are
> >taught to
> >value honesty, to explore new ideas, and to see how these ideas can be applied
> >for everyone’s benefit rather than as a threat to a few.  Only the
> universities
> >have this power, a responsibility which in two cases has been ignored.
> >Fortunately, this behavior is still not widespread.  I worry that this
> behavior
> >is a trend which will eventually infect all universities.
>
> It is clear that these issues in fact do worry you from many of your
> writtings.  Not just on vortex, but as well in your papers where your
> dismay at the system is clear.
>
> I would encourage you to recognize that progress takes time to digest at
> all levels.  And to recognize that the professors involved in the scandals
> mentioned above, and noted all too well by Mallove etc., are in their eyes,
> not scandals.  They are mistaken, but they are convinced that they are on
> the right side of the fence and that we are mistaken in the CF industry.
> There is a difference between someone that understands a truth to be so,
> yet professes it to be false, and someone who believes a truth to be false,
> and professes so.  The MIT and other fiasco's are the result of the latter
> example, though one can clearly and correctly assert blame in their failure
> to openly consider the evidence.  A failure to correctly analyze something
> is SIGNIFICANTLY different from a bold face lie.  These guys have convinced
> themselves that CF is BS, and are acting on that belief.
>
> Another thing I would assert is the fact that despite the turmoil that has
> been bestowed on Bokris and others, the truth is winning and the oppression
> is failing.  Hence, the "worry" you feel is IMO, not justified.  The
> message about CF has made it out into the industry of the world, and
> various corporations (mine being one) take the message seriously and are
> acting on this new belief structure.
>
> Therefore, assuming that CF is in fact real, nature will reward
> corporations like mine with success and eventual profits.  And history will
> reward those who endured the period of turmoil.  In the end, this past
> decade will be remembered as the short period of transition from the fossil
> fuel age to the nuclear age.  Indeed, this century will be remembered as
> having given birth to the new age of technology whence these new energy and
> other technologies came.
>
> As for energy, the Internet and freedom of speech will spring forth
> triumphant, and those that failed to carefully consider that they might
> have been wrong will have been exposed as arrogant bafoons, too timid to
> seriously investigate the depth of their own fallability.
>
> To make progress in science, one must always assume that what one knows is
> wrong.  Otherwise, all you can hope to learn is what is already understood.
>  For this, it is more rapid to just read the books.  Progress requires
> reading the mind of God.
>
> rt

I enjoy and respect your optimism.  In most respects, I share your views.
However, only occasionally does a person have a tool which can see into the system
and diagnose its deficiencies.  The cold fusion and zero-point energy claims,
among others, have provided this insight, and it is not good.  I agree, the people
who are fighting the ideas think they are right and justified in their actions.
The same can be said for a mass murder or a thief.  All actions by humans are
justified in the eyes of the perpetrators. The question is whether people in power
have values which lead to a good outcome regardless of their personal beliefs or
self-serving justifications.  In other words, are the leaders in science able to
view an idea which seems wrong to them while allowing this idea to be debated,
investigated, and judged by their peers without interference?  As you know,
intellectual freedom, just like freedom of speech, only exists when unpopular
ideas are allowed expression.  In science now, a powerful group exists which does
not share this idea of freedom.  Cold fusion and other such ideas only have a
chance because this powerful group does not yet have total control.  Naturally,
their justifications require them to obtain that total control if they can. The
competence vacuum in our school systems gives them this opportunity.  It is only a
matter of time before new ideas will not be tolerated unless they can make a buck
within a short time.  Fortunately, I will be dead by then and will not have to
fight the battle the rest of you will have to fight, but which could have been
prevented.

Ed Storms




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  2 12:20:49 1999
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: MIT, Video-Games, CF
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My comments were somewhat contradictory. I meant to conclude that somewhat
dilapidated school facilities are not a problem. Chamblee High and the
Japanese schools I've visited have a friendly, busy, beat-up atmosphere,
with no carpets to worry about mussing up. On the other hand, extremely
dilapidated, dank, smelly and crowded schools without books, lab equipment
or musical instruments are bad for education.

I do not think the debate is really about public or private, at school or
home school. It is really about money and minimum standards. Any system
will work as long as all children get a fair share. I am sure average U.S.
test scores would rise if we would establish minimum standards for physical
plant, books, blackboards and so on. I do not understand why we debate
things like Internet connections in classrooms when so many classrooms here
in Georgia are atrocious.

That goes double for health-care. Japanese hospitals are dilapidated,
crowded, and un air-conditioned, and the food is dreadful. They have only a
fraction of the CAT scans and other high-tech gadgets you find at major
upper crust U.S. hospitals. A wealthy person is more comfortable in the
U.S. and he will probably live longer. But in Japan good healthcare is
available to everyone at virtually no cost. Recently one of my relatives
had a life-threatening heart attack, an emergency operation, two weeks in
intensive care, and a month in the hospital. That set her back a few
thousand dollars. So overall health standards, average longevity, infant
mortality rates and public health are much better than in the U.S.,
particularly when you compare depressed areas. Everyone can and does go to
the dentist; dentures are rare, whereas in the U.S. 5 to 10 million
children never see a dentist, and their teeth fall out by age 20, some by
age 6. (See New York Times, June 26, 1999, "Many Dentists Won't Fix Poor
Children's Bad Teeth," C. Goldberg.) Doctors in Japan write magazine
articles complaining they cannot afford to stay in business because
National Health Insurance pays so little, but the ones I know live well
enough.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  2 12:48:22 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: MIT, Video-Games, CF
In-Reply-To: <37A5E1E4.D6534B61 ix.netcom.com>
References: <4.1.19990801121636.009ca3f0 pop3.oro.net>
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Ed Storms writes:

>In science now, a powerful group exists which does
>not share this idea of freedom.  Cold fusion and other such ideas only have a
>chance because this powerful group does not yet have total control.
Naturally,
>their justifications require them to obtain that total control if they
can. The
>competence vacuum in our school systems gives them this opportunity.  It
is only a
>matter of time before new ideas will not be tolerated unless they can make
a buck
>within a short time.

Martin Fleischmann thinks so too. He says "people don't want science. They
don't want innovation any more. So it will just die." Francis Bacon thought
science was a fragile institution which might not survive.

I don't know. I expect the system will be pushed to extremes until a crisis
occurs. For example, the world at large may discover that cold fusion is
real after all, and the establishment has been trying to squash it. The
anti-science crowed will be purged, institutions will be renewed and
revitalized, and innovation will begin again . . . until the system starts
to atrophy and run down again.

Science is useful to mankind and important to powerful national interests
like business, the military and others. It is hard for me to believe that
such an important institution can be put permanently out of whack by a
small clique of power-hungry people. It can be damaged for a long time, and
it might be nearly run out of business, like the British merchant marine in
1840, but I suppose it will revive eventually.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  2 13:06:30 1999
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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 16:06:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: ?? P and L Statement ???Re: MIT, Video-Games, CF
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	What is the "P and L statement?

`	See flag, below,

On Mon, 2 Aug 1999 BriggsRO aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 8/1/99 5:59:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> editor infinite-energy.com writes:
__________________________FLAG______________

> disappear when the feedback loop is opened. In business, you can only sell 
> 
	".............B.S. for so long before the P and L statement has
the last word.      ..............."

	????
In 
> academia, with tenure, and very little measurement or consequence of 
> performance, there is not much morality; not much immorality either -- just 
> amorality.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Bob
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  2 13:28:19 1999
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From: "e lewis" <elewis1 hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: formation of anomalous states in micrometer size areas on electrodes
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 13:26:56 PDT
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THis was an interesting post. I am having to write this twice because the 
reply I sent earlier today didn't register back to me.

You studied plasmoids during the last few years right?

Could you tell me more about Hutchison?  and whether he also reported 
transmutation. There are a few other experimental reports like this.

Benjamin Franklin experimented with this effect by electrical discharge 
also.  The atoms actually may pass through eachother or merge into eachother 
the way that ball lightning does.
Sorry to take so long to respond. Ed
>From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: formation of anomalous states in micrometer size areas on  
>electrodes
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:10:25 -1000
>
>e lewis wrote:
>
><snip>
>
> > The layer of liquid is anomalous because it may exist below the melting
> > point of the metal.  And the atoms behave anomalously.
>
><snip>
>
> > This
> > happens to metal at anomalously cool temperatures.  For example 
>sometimes
> > metal objects with high melting points which are struck by lightning are
> > found and the metal is melted into a glob but highly flammable material
> > touching the metal is not even scorched.
>
><snip>
>
> > I think this is why Nassisi's windows kept breaking.  These waves 
>themselves
> > are anomalous since they seem to be associated with time changes and 
>effects
> > on material that are gravity or magnetic like.
>
>Kept thinking of the Hutchison phenomena while reading this. I saw the
>video. Of course the events on the video could have been faked without too
>much trouble, but I do get the impression that they probably weren't. He 
>has
>racks full of hard metal parts rent asunder and sometimes liquified at
>apparently low temperatures by some anomalous electrical process. Very
>strange. I sure wish someone could get a solid handle on the conditions 
>that
>cause these things to occur.
>
>This kind of thing defines what the "fringe" is all about. Astonishing and
>"impossible" phenomena that just seems to keep popping up, yet managing to
>avoid hard scrutiny by being so irreproducible on demand. Very frustrating.
>
>Besides everything else implied by these reports, the manufacturing
>possibilities for casting and forming fancy metals at low temperature and
>pressure are mind-boggling.
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI
>


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  2 13:39:57 1999
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 16:41:20 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: MIT, Video-Games, CF
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At 08:55 PM 8/1/1999 -0000, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
>I think the academic world is far more currupt than the business world.  
>Academics just pretend to be Snow White.

    When I was at RPI about twenty years ago, one of the professors in the
Engineering school told me that, "The reason that campus politics is so
vicious is that the stakes are so small."  It was very true.  I was in the
school of Management--don't ask me why Operations Research and Statistics
was in the Management school, and I won't try to explain it.  We were
fairly comfortable in grant money, research assistantships, and even office
space, but in the Schools of Engineering, Science, and Liberal Arts, the
infighting was brutal.

    In any case I don't blame industry or government for the sad state of
some universities today (well, except for the state universities).  Many
schools tried to grow too rapidly and stretched their endowment thin to
accept the available influx of baby boomers, then got hit by both the baby
bust and the economic/stock market decline in the Carter years.  Many, many
schools got folded together in forced marriages, and then soem of the
better schools thought they could benefit by acquiring some of the
floundering schools, or just merging as a way of growing in size.  There
are still some good small schools left, but very few.  As for the rest, it
will take another twenty years for some of them to get back to a sound
footing, if they can do it at all, since it requires making the government
teat a low priority.  If you have a child that wants an eductation, look
for a school with a large per capita endowment, a small student/professor
ratio, and at about 50% of the faculty tenured.

    The good news is that there are workable models that are better than
the "traditional" universities and four year colleges.  The bad news is
that very few schools are willing to accept them. (I'd love to see a major
school adopt a model where most if not all incomming students were either
from good junior/farm schools or distance education.  And yes, I know about
the UCal system, which almost works.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  2 13:45:22 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Randell L. Mills' Patent Record
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At  www.patents.ibm.com   (US Inventors and Companies) there are 8 fairly
sophisticated patents issued to Randell L. Mills of Cochranville,
Pennsylvania.

Cochranville is Southeast of Lancaster Pa.

FJS

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  2 14:23:37 1999
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From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Ed -

> You studied plasmoids during the last few years right?

No, I just hang around on these boards.

> Could you tell me more about Hutchison?  and whether he also reported
> transmutation. There are a few other experimental reports like this.

Hutchison is a "marginal" character by most accounts, and his work has not
been widely observed let alone replicated. He uses a mad-scientist array of
HV equipment including Tesla coils and van de Graffs in a closed room to
create special conditions at some location in the room where the effects
might occur. The effects often require a long time to get started, sometimes
after many hours of operation of the electrical equipment. Effects include
rainbow colored fogs and flashes, antigravity, boiling water at room
temperature, and many strange melting and disrupting effects with metals. I
don't recall anything specific about ball lightning or plasmoids though, but
I may have just forgotten about that.

One of the effects seen in the video is where a large chunk of hardened
alloy steel gets suddenly 'sorted out', as if it were a column of liquid in
a centrifuge. There's carbon at one end, and layers of the other alloy
elements under it, then iron the rest of the way. I don't know about
transmutations, but that sure sounds like your "The atoms actually may pass
through each other" action.

There's an interesting article, I think Keelynet has it, titled something
like "...Poltergeist Machine...", where someone writes speculatively that
many poltergeist phenomena can be attributed to these bizzare electrical
phenomena which Hutchison supposedly creates with his setups. I don't know
about that, but if I ever see a steak start crawling across the counter top
like an inch worm, I'm puttin' the house up on eBay.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  2 15:06:16 1999
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>I enjoy and respect your optimism.  In most respects, I share your views.
>However, only occasionally does a person have a tool which can see into the 
>system
>and diagnose its deficiencies.  The cold fusion and zero-point energy claims,
>among others, have provided this insight, and it is not good. 

If you review history, you will find that it used to take centuries to
overcome scientific and religous oppression.  Now, it only takes decades.
In the future, the oppression will learn to encourage challenging thoughts.
 The trend is clear if you look backward.  The time delay between new
thoughts and implementation is decreasing, not increasing.  The time delay
for new ideas to become new products is decreasing, not increasing.

Promoting that the opposite is true leads to prolonging the change.

What failed in the CF "scientific experiment" resulted from our system
failing to allocate a small but significant budget toward "crazy" ideas.
This should be implemented on a permanent basis.  The advocates of all
manner of fields of technology should need to compete for these dollars
with their crazy ideas.

This is best understood when you study "Optimization" of parameters in
multi parameter systems.  Up to about 7 independent parameters, the fastest
way to find maxima and minima is to perform one of a variety of intelligent
searches, which leap frog geometrically toward superior solutions.  I
forget the name of the search algorithm, but it isn't important.

Beyond 7 parameters (the regime of CF), the fastest search method is a
random search.  You just fire lots of crazy combinations into the system
randomly and see what falls out.  With this you can figure out which
parameters don't seem to effect the system as much as others, and then fix
them at nominal values and proceed with an intelligent search algorithm as
before.  

Our scientific funding allocation system doesn't have a "random" search
component for radical new technologies.  That is the problem.

If such a program existed, and the allocations were weighted on the
potential benefit to society for success, then the CF squashing would never
have succeeded.  They could have cut off main stream funding, but they
wouldn't have cut off the "crazy" funding.

The problem with this is that Americans are so stupid as to fail to
recognize how much benefit they receive from what they consider to be a
waste of money, such as the space program.  The fail to realize that in
their cars, homes, the power plants servicing their light demands, etc.,
that the things we enjoy came from cutting edge science of yesterday.

Once society understands and embraces this reality, then such a program
that challenges main stream science can be implemented.  Or, it can be
implemented in a small way and kept hidden from the public under the carpet
by sweeping the crazy scientific endeavors the crumbs from the main stream
table.

rt

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  2 15:07:14 1999
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At 04:06 PM 8/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>	What is the "P and L statement?
>


Profit and Loss Statement

rt

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Hi Scott,                          8-3-99

For some reason, this didn't seem to get through on Vortex
yesterday; so I'm sending it to you directly.

Jack Smith

At 09:34 AM 7/31/99 +0100, Cornwall RO wrote:

I'm not comfortable with something charged spining around and not
emitting.  Why doesn't the zpe get continuously tapped? 

Scott Little wrote:

Hi Remi,  You might be interested to know that
Puthoff has shown that the electron DOES radiate
but that it is continually ABSORBING an equal flux of
energy from the ZPF ...

Hi Scott,

In "Seeing Red", Halton Arp suggests that the electron is
absorbing energy from the ZPF at a greater rate than the
electron is radiating energy:

On page 108, Arp writes "In 1964, Fred Hoyle and Jayant Narlikar
proposed ... a theory of mass which had its origin in Mach's
principle ...  As time goes on it [the electron] receives signals
from a volume of space that enlarges as the velocity of light ...
Its mass grows in proportion to the number and strength of the
signals it receives."

So where does the electron's additional mass come from?  On
page 228 Arp writes "... creation of matter ...  We must mean
the transformation of previously existing mass-energy.  Probably
this means materialization from a previously diffused state -- a
concept which would relate well to quantum physics."

I have been reading Arp in my study of the mysteries of red shift.

Jack Smith

PS:  An interesting idea from Arp is that the Atlantic rift could
be the result of matter creation, and that there is no need to postulate
subduction to keep the mass of the earth constant.  Of course, how then
do we account for the rise of the Himalaya mountains, so critical for
earth's climate in the last 65 million years?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  3 07:27:04 1999
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: MIT, Video-Games, CF
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>John Logajan writes:
>
>	And since this thread makes allegations about the superiority of
>	government schools, one need only point to the inconvenient and
>	indisputable fact that private schools outperform public schools
>	often at 1/3rd the cost per pupil (in good neighborhoods and
>	bad, so the "creme of the crop" excuse is deflated.)
>
>This does not follow. A school in a good neighborhood can also "skim,"
>attracting the cream of the crop.

***{John was saying that the superior performance of private schools cannot
be attributed to funding, because even the poorly funded private schools
outperform public schools that are better funded, and he is correct. Thus
your lengthy disquisition about "magnet" schools is not germane to his
point. --Mitchell Jones}***

The best high school in Atlanta is
>Chamblee High. It happens to be a few blocks for my house, in a reasonably
>nice neighborhood, but they might have located it anywhere in the county.
>It is the best because it skims. It is a so-called academic "magnet" public
>school, which accepts two or three students from each public school in
>DeKalb county. Other magnet schools specialize in language, performing
>arts, etc. The budget per student is far less than the elite private
>schools, and considerably less than the public schools in rich
>neighborhoods, but in SAT scores and academic competitions Chamblee is
>consistently way ahead.

***{Average performance rises when students are transferred from public to
private schools, and falls when they are transferred from private schools
to public ones. Likewise, average performance rises when students transfer
from public schools to home schooling and falls when the change is in the
other direction. Moreover, the largest improvements occur among those who
transfer to *computerized* home schooling--i.e., where the study program is
self-contained (e.g., on CD ROM's) and the parents function as managers
rather than as teachers. Since these types of numbers compare the
performances of *the same students* before and after shifting from one type
of program to the other, arguments about skimming do not apply. (To obtain
a quality set of CD ROM's for use in a basically "hands off" homeschooling
program, or for details about the relative performances of students under
various educational protocols, contact www.oism.org.) --Mitchell Jones}***

You can tell the budget is low by looking at the
>beat-up facilities, the leaks in the roof and bathrooms, and the ancient
>air conditioner which frequently fails. The teachers are paid the same as
>others in the county public schools, but it is choice assignment for them.
>
>The difference is not in facilities or budget, it is in the students -- and
>the parents, and teachers. Mostly the students.

***{I repeat: John's comments were obviously intended to compare private
education, including homeschooling, with public "education." The
superiority of the private approach is not refuted by talk about variations
which are induced by segregating high achievers, because the superiority of
private education shows up across the board. Performances of low achievers,
middle achievers and high achievers alike tend to improve when they are
transferred out of the public schools, and to decline when they are
transferred into them.

Look at the public school high achievers who perpetrated the Columbine
massacre just a few months ago, if you want an insight into why this is the
case. Those students had been subjected to incessant bullying and taunting
by less able peers throughout their decade of incarceration in the public
"schools," and had been taught the "politically correct" nonsense that all
cultures are equal--which means: they had been taught that any set of
values is as good as any other. Result: they selected, from the available
spectrum of "equally good" choices, a value system that fed their notions
of superiority and resentment, and which condoned violent reprisals against
their tormentors. (Which valuational framework was that? Why the one
concocted by Adolf Hitler, of course! They even carried out their shooting
spree on der Fuhrer's birthday!)

The inferiority of public "education" is thus not due to "funding" or
"skimming," but to the forced mixing of students with divergent backgrounds
and interests, and to the fact that in order to appear to be value neutral,
public schools must deny moral instruction to their students. Since
students tend to associate with peers who have common interests and
experiences, this type of "value free" forced mixing produces a
proliferation of cliques within the public schools, and an ongoing state of
virtually tribal warfare between cliques. In the resulting tinderbox
atmosphere, morality winds up being made up by the students themselves,
often with violent overtones. One consequence is the much publicized gang
violence and the massacres such as that at Columbine; another is the
increasingly violent society we see around us. In both cases, the cause is
the severing of cultural and moral ties between generations, which is the
only task ably accomplished by the public schools. By contrast, the
minority of privately schooled and homeschooled youngsters are taught the
values of their parents, and thus tend to be a stabilizing influence which
helps the country to preserve its traditional mix of values.

I would add that while there is widespread disagreement regarding what the
specific values were that made America great, it is clear that those
values, whatever they were, were present somewhere in the mix, and thus
would be preserved if the mix were preserved. Since public "education" does
not preserve the mix, it is guaranteed to demolish, over time, the
essential fabric that led to this nation's success. (And, from the vantage
point of a person living in this society for more than 5 decades, I can say
without any doubt whatever that this destructive work has, for the most
part, already been done.)

--Mitchell Jones}***

Their backgrounds range
>from one step above living on the street to wealthy. I do not know the
>distribution compared to the overall city average. I do not think there are
>many Buckhead mansion super-rich kids.
>
>The public schools in the rich Atlanta neighborhoods look like hotels or
>upscale office buildings, with carpets, video facilities in meeting rooms
>and so on. I walked into one a few months ago, and I thought I was in the
>wrong building. The public schools in poor neighborhoods are much worse
>than Chamblee, with few books in the library, overflowing sewage in the
>bathrooms, and no air conditioner at all. It would be difficult to study
>under such adverse circumstances. The kids who claw their way out of these
>schools into Chamblee are motivated to study -- and they do. See the book
>"Savage Inequities" for details. Quoting a review of that book:
>
>	Reports of schools in black and Hispanic communities from New York to
>	California-- where not only books, crayons, and lab equipment but also
>	toilet paper are rationed--are painful to read. School buildings turn
>	into swamps when it rains or must be closed (or, worse yet, are kept
>	open) when sewage backs up into kitchens and cafeterias. A school in
>	the South Bronx is set up in a windowless skating rink next to a
>	mortuary, with class sizes up to 35, lunch in three shifts, a library
>	of 700 books, and no playground. The school population is 90-percent
>	black and Hispanic. Yet it is only a few minutes north to a more
>	affluent part of the Bronx and a public school surrounded by flowering
>	trees, two playing fields, and a playground, with a planetarium and an
>	8,000-book library.
>
>We have hell-hole schools like this all of the country, and yet some people
>still wonder why children do poorly. I suggest you visit one or two slum
>schools. (My brother taught in one for many years -- not as bad as these,
>but bad enough.) You will never wonder again why kids do badly or why
>homeschooling or any other alternative is better. You will be amazed that
>the kids learn to read and survive.

***{Indeed so, but without an understanding of the root of the
problem--forced association and, as a consequence, the denial of an
education in values--it cannot be recognized why the public schools are so
grossly inferior to the private alternatives. Result: it cannot be
recognized that the only way out of the dilemma is the abolition of the
public schools. The root problem is that there is no way for government
schools to teach values without first deciding which values to teach, and
regardless of which value system is chosen, the result will be a firestorm
of protest from the parents who disagree with that choice. Thus the gang
violence and massacres in the public schools, the growing violence in the
larger society, and the ongoing moral deterioration, are inevitable
consequences of public education in a racially, culturally and morally
heterogeneous society, and can be rectified only by a complete separation
of education and the state, and a returning of the tax monies involved to
those from whom they are being taken. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>In Japan, all public school facilities are precisely the same, nationwide.
>The teachers' salaries, textbooks, bathrooms etc., are the same in the slum
>schools and the rich schools. Janitorial standards are the same: the kids
>themselves do the cleaning and scrubbing, from grade school to high school.
>Naturally, rich kids do better on average on standardized tests, but the
>gap is much smaller than it is in the U.S. Private schools are about on the
>same level as the better public schools. There is no home schooling and few
>religious schools.

***{Japan is a much more homogeneous society than the U.S., and one in
which the desire to conform is much stronger. There, it is generally
accepted that "the nail that sticks out must be hammered down."
Individualism, however, is not yet dead in America, and America is also a
much larger and more diverse "melting pot" type of society. If an attempt
were made to apply the Japanese model to American public schools, the
result would be something akin to civil war. Moreover, that is a good
thing: a strong case can be made that *individualism* is the value system
that made America great. If so, then it is the ingredient that must remain
present in the mix, if this nation is to survive, and any attempt to "save"
the public schools by imposing a Japanese-style collectivistic model would
be a thoroughgoing disaster. Recent events in the Balkans have demonstrated
that the attempt by one group to impose its values on another leads to
civil war. And the American public schools have demonstrated that mixing
divergent groups together in a "value free" setting does not work, either.
The only possible solution to these sorts of dilemmas is a *private* system
of education, which permits parents to select schools which teach values
with which they agree, or else to teach their children themselves.
--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>	Even homeschooled children outperform public schooled children
>	-- at all grade levels.
>
>Not compared to Chamblee High!

***{John was obviously talking about averages in the above statement, not
about subgroups that had been deliberately selected because they were above
average. Since you said yourself that Chamblee High is simply a place where
high achievers have been brought together, it is irrelevant to the
comparison that he was making. (Given the freedom to select among home
schoolers and create an elite group, John could easily select out students
who scored 1600 on the S.A.T., for example, thereby creating an elite group
that would blow Chamblee High out of the water. Of course, it would prove
nothing whatever about the average performances of home schooled students
as compared to publicly schooled students, just as your repeated references
to Chamblee High prove nothing.) --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>Mitchell Swartz writes:
>
>	I might have agreed with this before the reality of 'politically
>	correct' ignorance.  But with Jay Leno interviewing hundreds of
>	people who dont know what polio is, who dont know who fought the
>	War of 1812, who cant recognize the vice president or even know
>	how many states are in the US . . .
>
>And their are even professionals PhDs and doctors who cant dont or wont
>punctuate or use apostrophes rite. Imagine that!
>
>- Jed

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>Ross Tessien wrote:
>
>>  My point is, things are great now
>> >because of
>> >past wise decisions, but the future does not look good if the education
>> >system is
>> >taken over by business.  A separation of power is essential in
>>education just
>> >like it is essential in government
>> >
>> >Ed Storms
>>
>> Today, I just can't fathom any corporation making a significant
>> contribution to the brain washing of a society of children.  There is
>> simply too much information.  There are indeed a large number of people who
>> enjoy life as "sheep" following the lead of others and doing as they are
>> told.  But there is increasing freedom for "wolves" to do as they please,
>> and to pursue scientific, intellectual, and artistic endeavors as they
>> choose.  Vortex list is just one example of such a freedom.  Schools only
>> make up a small percentage of a persons education, and intelligent
>> individuals are nearly equally capable of putting information onto the net
>> as are corporations.  They are additionally free to post nearly anything
>> they choose, regardless of what you or I may think about their thoughts.
>>
>> The gist is, Freedom of Speach is becoming an International Freedom,
>> enjoyed by all who can gain access to the Internet.
>>
>> Finally, the most important comodity on the planet is energy.  Our work is
>> aimed at providing a new form of energy to be enjoyed by all.  The goal is
>> sufficiently large that it will be conquered, if it can be conquered.  I
>> for one have zero doubt that it can be, and hence that it will be, and
>> soon.  Each on this list has a differring level of confidence in that
>> assertion, but I am free to voice my opinion.  This freedom is what will
>> lead ultimately to an improvement in the condition of all mankind.
>>
>> Free speech, combined with a significant reduction in the cost of energy,
>> will revolutionize our planet in the coming two decades.  Wars will not be
>> fought over energy in the future, as they have been in the past.
>>
>> This is an exciting time to live.
>>
>> rt
>
>I agree, freedom of speech is essential.  However, this is not the only or
>perhaps the main issue.  Once this freedom exists, the question is what
>will be
>spoken?  People discuss what they know and understand. This knowledge and
>understanding depends on what they were taught. As you all have experienced on
>Vortex, where great freedom exists, some of the discussions border on nonsense
>because the speaker is ignorant of facts or even of how to make a logical
>connection between facts.  In addition, what is discussed is colored by
>emotional
>considerations.  For example, discussions between the Albanians and Serbs are
>colored by paranoia and suspicion, much like how some people on Vortex
>respond.
>My point is, what is taught is determined by who runs the system.  If the
>government runs the system, as is now the case, what is taught will be
>valuable
>to the government, i.e. to all of us.

***{This is a joke, right? Surely you haven't failed to notice that the
content taught by government controlled schools is determined by politics!
Are you, for example, unaware that Hitler's schools taught that the Jews
were "parasites" that needed to be "excised from the body of the people,"
and that government schools in Islamic countries teach hatred of the West
while glorifying the brutal oppression of women? Do you think teachers in
Russia during the 1930's decried the repressions of the N.K.V.D., or that
those in East Germany denounced the depredations of the STASI? Indeed, what
alternate reality have you occupied, lo the past decade, while American
teachers in government controlled schools and universities have with
virtual uniformity taught the view that your beloved "cold fusion" is an
obvious instance of "pathological science"? Surely you do not really
believe that these sorts of ludicrous teachings, of which there are
mind-boggling multitudes of examples, are both valuable to the government,
and also to the people! --Mitchell Jones}***

If business runs the system, what is
>taught will be valuable to business, i.e. not to all of us.

***{Real businessmen--i.e., those who pursue success by attempting to
produce a better product at a lower price--want the educational system to
teach skills which are useful in the production of high quality goods and
services. Fake businessmen--i.e., politically connected parasites who
pursue success by using an anti-business regulatory framework to squash
their competition--want the educational system to support heavy handed
economic regulations, and they don't give a hoot in hell about the
consumers who will, as a result, be forced to buy inferior goods at grossly
inflated prices. Thus to the extent that real businessmen influence the
educational system, what is taught tends to be valuable to society as a
whole; and, to the extent that fake businessmen influence it, what is
taught will tend to merely serve the interests of a politically connected
elite of parasites. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>I also agree, the general education system is a mess and needs to be greatly
>improved.  However, our destiny will be determined by people who have
>achieved an
>education, people who because of this education acquire power, money, and
>influence.  The ignorant will be ignored or manipulated.  In addition, the
>factual knowledge these people have acquired is only part of what will
>determine
>our future.  How this knowledge is applied is equally important.  For example,
>will this knowledge be used for the benefit of the general society or
>mostly for
>the power elite.  Thus, an understanding of "values" is also important.
>Graduates of MIT or Texas A & M are examples of people who will have the
>ability
>to influence our future. What are these collages teaching about values?
>The only
>way we have of answering this question is to see how the teachers behave.
>In the
>case of MIT, we see teachers lying, manipulating data, and viewing new
>ideas as a
>threat to their own self interest.  At Texas A & M we have teachers trying to
>silence a distinguished professor who was trying to investigate a new, but
>unaccepted idea.  In other words, these schools encourage teachers, who by
>their
>example, promote dishonesty and a willingness to protect their own narrow self
>interest  These are the very values which lead to so much trouble when
>they are
>applied by business to protect the bottom line.  We need people who are
>taught to
>value honesty, to explore new ideas, and to see how these ideas can be applied
>for everyone’s benefit rather than as a threat to a few.  Only the
>universities
>have this power, a responsibility which in two cases has been ignored.
>Fortunately, this behavior is still not widespread.  I worry that this
>behavior
>is a trend which will eventually infect all universities.

***{I agree with most of the above paragraph, but we parted company when
you concluded that the dishonesty is not widespread. In my view it is
virtually universal. What you do not seem to recognize is that a closed
mind is a form of dishonesty: the people who "know" in advance that the
anomalous energy claims are not real maintain those opinions by means of
selective thinking. They simply avoid lines of thought which undercut what
they want to believe. Once a person is habituated to such thinking, it is
to be expected that his written presentations will exhibit a selectivity
which parallels that of his mental processes. Thus the only difference
between the dishonesty of the published pathological skeptics and that of
the unpublished ones, is that in the former case the unseemly twistings
within their minds are available for public viewing, while in the latter,
they are not. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Ed Storms

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Ross Tessien wrote:

> >I enjoy and respect your optimism.  In most respects, I share your views.
> >However, only occasionally does a person have a tool which can see into the
> >system
> >and diagnose its deficiencies.  The cold fusion and zero-point energy claims,
> >among others, have provided this insight, and it is not good.
>
> If you review history, you will find that it used to take centuries to
> overcome scientific and religous oppression.  Now, it only takes decades.
> In the future, the oppression will learn to encourage challenging thoughts.
>  The trend is clear if you look backward.  The time delay between new
> thoughts and implementation is decreasing, not increasing.  The time delay
> for new ideas to become new products is decreasing, not increasing.

Yes, this is true.  However we are not talking about new products but about new
ways of looking at nature.  These changes do not come along very often and when
they do, a long delay is required. Perhaps the delay now is not as long as
Galileo experienced, but it still lasts a generation.

>
> Promoting that the opposite is true leads to prolonging the change.

I do not understand why you believe this observation.

>
> What failed in the CF "scientific experiment" resulted from our system
> failing to allocate a small but significant budget toward "crazy" ideas.
> This should be implemented on a permanent basis.  The advocates of all
> manner of fields of technology should need to compete for these dollars
> with their crazy ideas.

Such a budget once existed at universities where professors had undirected money
which they could use as they wished.  This was one of the great advantages of
being a professor, besides having slave labor at their disposal.  These funds
have largely dried up and have been replaced by grants based on peer reviewed
proposals.  As a result, new and unaccepted ideas are not being investigated.
This situation is getting worse.  My point is that the trend is going away from
conditions which produced our present understanding and is going toward mining
information rather than expanding it.  I suggest a failure to acknowledge this
problem and make the necessary corrections will allow this process to continue,.
As you said, "Promoting that the opposite is true leads to prolonging the
change".

>
> This is best understood when you study "Optimization" of parameters in
> multi parameter systems.  Up to about 7 independent parameters, the fastest
> way to find maxima and minima is to perform one of a variety of intelligent
> searches, which leap frog geometrically toward superior solutions.  I
> forget the name of the search algorithm, but it isn't important.
>
> Beyond 7 parameters (the regime of CF), the fastest search method is a
> random search.  You just fire lots of crazy combinations into the system
> randomly and see what falls out.  With this you can figure out which
> parameters don't seem to effect the system as much as others, and then fix
> them at nominal values and proceed with an intelligent search algorithm as
> before.

I prefer to use guided searches where the revealed patterns suggest the best
variables to study. Your approach leads itself to engineering optimization of
known parameters, not to trying to develop a basic theory.  Indeed, a random
search would take many lifetimes because of the very large number of variables
and their combinations.

>
> Our scientific funding allocation system doesn't have a "random" search
> component for radical new technologies.  That is the problem.
>
> If such a program existed, and the allocations were weighted on the
> potential benefit to society for success, then the CF squashing would never
> have succeeded.  They could have cut off main stream funding, but they
> wouldn't have cut off the "crazy" funding.
>
> The problem with this is that Americans are so stupid as to fail to
> recognize how much benefit they receive from what they consider to be a
> waste of money, such as the space program.  The fail to realize that in
> their cars, homes, the power plants servicing their light demands, etc.,
> that the things we enjoy came from cutting edge science of yesterday.

Very true.  However, I would not place the blame on normal Americans who only
know what they are told by the Media.  Instead I would blame the corporations and
their leaders who wish to maximize their profits and focus as much funding as
possible to their own efforts.  The space program only succeeds because the
corporations involved have the political power to keep the money flowing to them
rather than to other programs.  The possible spin-off of advantages to the
average citizen is only the icing which is used to give political cover.  If this
seems cynical, you bet it is.

Ed Storms


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Vo,
Can anybody direct me to a site with Laplace transforms? I don't mean
noddy sites as 'a Laplace Transform is this' type lecture notes but one
with tables of more difficult functions.
Remi.

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At 07:30 AM 8/3/99 +0000, you wrote:

>On page 108, Arp writes "In 1964, Fred Hoyle and Jayant Narlikar
>proposed ... a theory of mass which had its origin in Mach's
>principle ...  As time goes on it [the electron] receives signals
>from a volume of space that enlarges as the velocity of light ...
>Its mass grows in proportion to the number and strength of the
>signals it receives."

Hi Jack,

Do you think they mean that the electron's mass is growing as the size of
the universe grows?

I'm not much good at such theories.  I guess I'm too involved in our normal
3-D world....



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  3 16:35:30 1999
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Gab about education
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>This deserves to go to the gab circuit, Vortex-L . . .
>
>Mitchell Jones write:
>
>	John was saying that the superior performance of private schools
>	cannot be attributed to funding, because even the poorly funded
>	private schools outperform public schools that are better
>	funded, and he is correct.
>
>He may have said that, but in the part I quoted he said something else:
>
>. . . private schools outperform public schools often at 1/3rd the cost per
>pupil (in good neighborhoods and bad, so the "creme of the crop" excuse is
>deflated.)
>
>Note the parenthetical comment. I assume he means that when you locate a
>school in a good neighborhood, you cannot skim off the cream of the crop.

***{John was attempting a generalized comparison of public education and
private education, and, given that context, the import of his statement was
clear: he was saying that even private schools that focus on the poorest
and most educationally disadvantaged students outperform public schools
that draw from the same student base. And to that, surprisingly, you
respond by arguing that, yes, it *is* possible to skim off the high
achieving students, if one wants to, despite the fact that John never
denied that, or even said anything about it, for that matter. Well, that's
OK: communication is difficult, and everybody is guilty of
misinterpretation sometimes. What I do find amazing, though, is that even
after I made a good faith attempt to explain what he was saying, you still
insist on taking his remarks the wrong way. --Mitchell Jones}***

If you did not, then I would suggest that you
>The surrounding schools are pretty good, the students and parents are
>satisfied, and they will not come to your elite magnet school. Maybe this
>is true, but when you raise the ante high enough, you can skim students
>even from the best neighborhoods. That is what Chamblee High and the Bronx
>High School for Science do.
>
>It may be that poorly funded private schools outperform public schools
>sometimes, but sometimes it works the other way. Chamblee High is a poorly
>funded public school which outperforms every private school in the state. I
>think it does not matter whether a school is public, private, parochial,
>traditional or modern. What matters is the ineffable spirit of the students
>and teachers.

***{Think, Jed! Is it not possible to go into any state, test the students,
pick out the students with the highest test scores, and put them together
in one school? If you do that, then have you, by that fact alone, altered
the average achievement in the state? The answer: of course not! Since John
was comparing the average performances of the two systems, and you are not
talking about average performance at all, you are in effect ignoring the
entire content of what he said. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>	Average performance rises when students are transferred from
>	public to private schools, and falls when they are transferred
>	from private schools to public ones. Likewise, average
>	performance rises when students transfer from public schools to
>	home schooling and falls when the change is in the other
>	direction. . . .
>
>I do not know where you are getting these statistics, but I suspect the
>General Electric Lighting Study effect, discovered in the 1930s. You can
>turn lights up, or you can turn them down. You can reorient them east or
>west, move them around the spectrum from red to blue or back again. It does
>not matter what you do to the lights, as long as you do something. Worker
>productivity improves in every case because the workers get a sense that
>management cares about them.

***{If such an explanation were valid, test scores would not merely improve
when students are switched from public education to private education, they
would also improve when students were switched in the opposite direction.
Since that is not the case, your idea is wrong. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>	The inferiority of public "education" is thus not due to
>	"funding" or "skimming," but to the forced mixing of students
>	with divergent backgrounds and interests . . .
>
>In my experience, nothing is better for education than mixing students with
>divergent backgrounds and interests. They may resist, but it is good for
>them.

***{That's right, by golly! Every classroom should be disrupted by kids who
don't want to be there, and every well behaved and studious individual
should have a sneering thug sitting next to him. What a great idea! And
just think of the money we can save while distributing the "benefits" of
forced association throughout the population: we can do away with halfway
houses, by simply farming out the violent offenders to the homes of loving
folks such as yourself! (Hey, if forced association is good for the kids,
it must be good for the parents, right? :-) --Mitchell Jones}***

Here in Georgia some white people resist mixing with black people. It
>is their loss. They have formed private academies where they remain  mired
>in ignorance, fear, and fifth-rate education. The best schools here are the
>most mixed ones.

***{Rubbish. The impetus behind private schooling and home schooling, in
virtually all cases, has been concern about the low quality of education
provided by the public schools. There are many private schools in poor
neighborhoods that have predominantly black student bodies, and their
students invariably perform better academically than they did in the public
schools. Likewise, there are many black home schoolers, and their
performances improve as well. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>	. . . and to the fact that in order to appear to be value
>	neutral, public schools must deny moral instruction to their
>	students.
>
>Not here they don't! Not in any public school I know of, and I know a lot
>of them. My brother was a teacher for many years. In every public school in
>the U.S. and Japan they cram the kids so full of moral instruction it comes
>out their ears. It is one crusade after another. Every week they bring home
>papers and propaganda urging them to study hard, don't do drugs, measure
>up, volunteer, join the Cub Scouts and the JROTC, support the football
>team, support the Olympics and the Special Olympics, support the Gulf War,
>help disabled veterans, plant trees, clean up Nancy Creek, march against
>hunger, contribute to the hurricane relief, volunteer to teach reading,
>visit nursing homes, do extracurricular Black History Month projects,
>coordinate nature appreciation week, give blood, pledge allegience to the
>flag, save the whales, dolphins, peregrine falcons and pigeons, be polite,
>be adventurous, be safe, drink your milk, and on and on.

***{Morality, Jed, is a set of generalized principles by which men guide
their lives, not a set of "politically correct " causes in which one
enlists. One example of a system of morality would be the Ten Commandments
and the associated interpretive writings as contained in the Bible. Another
would be the Objectivist Ethics, as developed in the writings of Ayn Rand
and her followers. Other moral systems are to be found in the Koran, in the
teachings of Buddha, etc. None of these systems of morality are, or can be,
taught in American public schools, because such teachings exert a profound
determining influence on a child's life, and thus represent a prerogative
which the vast majority of parents insist on retaining for themselves. If
the public schools in the U.S. were to attempt to teach, say, Moslem Ethics
to American students, the result would be civil war. And the same applies
if they attempt to teach Objectivist ethics, or Buddhist ethics, or
whatever. A code of morality determines, more powerfully than anything
else, the type of human being a child will become, and, because of that, no
parent in his right mind is going to turn the moral instruction of his
children over to a lesion-covered, suppurating dead thing such as the
state. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>You must not have children if you think public schools are value neutral.
>They spend so darn much time on moral instruction you wonder when they have
>time to teach anything else.

***{You simply don't understand what morality *is*, that's all. Since you
exhibit a rationalistic streak, I suggest that you read *Atlas Shrugged*,
and follow that up with *The Objectivist Ethics*. At that point, perhaps
you will begin to comprehend what I am talking about. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>The only aspect of morality they do not teach is religion.

***{Religion is not an "aspect of morality." Religion is a *source* of
morality, because all religions are centrally focused on the inculcation of
valuational principles. The aim of moral instruction, whether from a
religious or a non-religious source, is to determine at the most profound
level the kind of human being a child will become. To exert that kind of
influence, a consistency of moral instructrion is required that, if
manifested in the public schools, would Balkanize the entire country.
Because that danger is widely recognized, moral instruction is simply not
attempted in the public schools. The result is that each child is cast
adrift in a sea of conflicting cliques, and makes up his moral code pretty
much by himself, with nothing more profound than social expediency as his
guide. --Mitchell Jones}***

That is a good
>thing too, because we have dozens of  religions represented, including
>every known Christian sect, Buddhists, atheists, Shakers, Quakers and
>everything else from Voodoo to Hindu. If your goal is recreate Sri Lanka,
>Northern Ireland, or Kosovo you would have to spend all day picking sides
>before launching your free-for-all. Fortunately, all parties have agreed to
>live in peace.

***{And the reason they have done so is that none of them perceive that the
moral principles of the others are being foisted onto their children in the
public schools. So long as the schools can continue to walk that tightrope
successfully, the system will not blow apart; but the moment they cease to
do so, it will. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>	The root problem is that there is no way for government schools
>	to teach values without first deciding which values to teach,
>	and regardless of which value system is chosen, the result will
>	be a firestorm of protest from the parents who disagree with
>	that choice.
>
>Nope. Never happens here. No firestorms -- not even a small blaze at the
>public school around here. We have hundreds of thousands of immigrants and
>every major religion, as I said. We have every racial group and dozens of
>languages. We have more Republicans than Democrats I am afraid, since we
>sent Newt Gingrich to Congress. (But my neighborhood elected a Democrat
>after redistricting.) I have attended PTA meetings, conferences, classes,
>competitions, graduations, etc., but I have never heard of a single
>instance when a parent protesting the values they teach in the public
>schools. Most of the parents have no choice where they send the kids, being
>too poor to afford private school, so this is "forced" education. And it
>isn't as if we have no controversy! Parents complain loudly. School board
>meeting are crammed full. You cannot get in the door, and the meetings go
>until 1 a.m.. But nobody complains about the values. I think 99.9% of the
>parents would agree these values constitute what used to be called
>"old-fashioned Americanism," and they are fine with us. Parents who
>disagree send their kids to private school, I guess.

***{As I said, you simply do not understand what morality is, that's all.
If you did, you would be instantly aware of the difference between teaching
a code of morality to students, and encouraging them to support trendy
causes. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>I do not know what planet you come from, but the problems you describe are
>imaginary. Here in Georgia and elsewhere I have visited and lived in
>(Washington, D.C., Maryland, Pennsylvania, Okayama and Yamaguchi) the
>problems you describe do not exist. You are ranting and raving about a
>"firestorm" in your mind. Get real! Join the PTA. Go to a school board
>meeting. Go to any school and look at the posters in the hallways.

***{The planet I am from is Earth--from the fascist state of Amerika--where
we have drug dealers, gun toting gang members, incompetent teachers,
poisonous statist propaganda, and rampant violence and intimidation in our
government run schools. The result has been a vast and growing movement
toward private schooling and home schooling, by parents who, due to basic
reasonableness or the press of events, have pulled their heads out of the
sand and their children out of harm's way. If you think these circumstances
do not exist, then I would suggest that the delusion that needs to be
rectified is yours, not mine. I would also note that the parents at
Columbine High talked exactly like you, when describing their attitudes
toward the school prior to the massacre. They literally had no idea that
the school was a tinderbox of pent up conflicts until it blew up in their
faces, because they, like you, did not want to know. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>	Thus the gang violence and massacres in the public schools, the
>	growing violence in the larger society, and the ongoing moral
>	deterioration, are inevitable consequences of public education
>	in a racially, culturally and morally heterogeneous society . . .
>
>Wrong again. Crime rates are declining, and schools are safer today than
>every before in U.S. history. You want school violence? Turn the clock back
>to 1899, or 1920, or 1963 in Selma, Alabama. There were times not long ago
>when violent gangs went around burning schools and beating students. It
>happened in upstate New York. Read Laura Wilder's "Farmer Boy," for
>example. We are living in a golden age, comparatively. Despite the widely
>publicized tragic shootings, the number of children hurt or killed by
>violence in schools is declining.

***{You are focusing on short term dips in the numbers, which are heavily
influenced by the state of the economy, and are conveniently ignoring the
inexorably rising long term trends. By your way of calculating, there is no
drug problem, since the numbers were higher a few years back. But that is
absurd: in the 1950's drugs were unheard of in the vast majority of
American high schools. Most students didn't even know what marijuana was,
much less crack cocaine, and the idea of wearing gang colors or carrying
guns to school didn't enter their minds because, practically speaking,
there *were* no gangs. Needless to say, there were no metal detectors at
the doors of high schools, and no chain link fences or guards, either. As
for the crime rate of the nation as a whole, your method of figuring would
cause us to focus on brief downward blips in the incarceration rate, while
ignoring the fact that the number of prisons, and the number of inmates,
has increased vastly faster than the population over the past 50 years, to
the point where America, which once had one of the lowest incarceration
rates in the world, now has a larger percentage of its own population
behind bars than 99% of the other nations on this planet. Indeed, just a
few years ago, we were number one! (Is this a great country, or what? :-)
--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>	Japan is a much more homogeneous society than the U.S., and one
>	in which the desire to conform is much stronger.
>
>So they say, but I sometimes wonder. They also claim they are a peace
>loving and orderly people, but you should see what they did in China. They
>claim they are law-abiding, but some of their biggest banks have recently
>been driven out of business by organized crime. Nations are complicated and
>contradictory, and difficult to characterize.
>
>- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  3 17:49:07 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 20:46:32 EDT
Subject: Re:  Mizuno progress
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Jed,

In a 1000-second run, how quickly can Mizuno or Ohmori get into the best 
energy-producing regime?  After a minute or two?  (By the way, I do see the 
point of standardizing runs at 1000 seconds for purposes of comparison.)

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  3 17:49:15 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 20:46:35 EDT
Subject: Re: Randell L. Mills' Patent Record
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Fred,

He's one and the same Randell L. Mills who has worked with Thermacore.  
Cochranville was (and I guess still is) the address of his first company, 
Mills Technologies.  As you can see from the patents, he's a man of many 
interests and abilities.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  3 23:44:40 1999
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From: Cornwall RO <R.O.Cornwall city.ac.uk>
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Thank you Frederick,
Remi.

On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> http://wims.unice.fr/~wims/wims.cgi?session=3826D12E&lang=en&module=adm%2Fli
> ght&phtml=new.phtml.en
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  4 00:22:04 1999
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Subject: Re: Gab about education
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Vo, oh no gab!,

State schools tend to fail just like most state funded enterprises because
one attracts the rotten apples. A third way is to apply business sense to
state activities and don't let these activities become too unionised or
politised. There is an economic term for an activity that is a key
resource that cannot be sensibily subject to 'competition' i.e. several
competing firms because, for instance that company must take monopoly of
the resource for several years. Examples

1) Our 'deregulated' (un-regulated as one wag put it) buses. Public road,
many buses competing unnecesarily (often dangerously and anti-socially)
for passengers.

2) Or the railway system. Much more rigid than roads, things must flow to
time. Conseqence is that 'competition' gives a monopoly for 5 years to a
company and in that time they can run down, overcharge the commuter.

Two extremes: pretty much lassiez-faire or pseudo competition - so how do
you find a compromise? Put key resources into the state care and
subcontract work to private companies; realise that the enterprise exists
to provide services not union power, etc.

Back to state vs private schools. I've experienced both. State school was
hell (there are good state schools - in good middle-class districts)
because there was a surfeit of 'lower class' people from young families
with no values. I like my old private school and intend to become a
benefactor since the government (spiteful! just 100million per year)
cancelled the assisted places scheme for the less well off.

Good state schools or bad private schools depend on the headmaster and the
pupils. If the pupils come from ultra rich families, funnily enough, they
display tendencies of children in bad state schools. Its to do with
values.

BTW I don't agree that education should be run soley by the government.
The temptation is for the current power to politicise the children. I was
in at the time of extra looney leftism. We were force fed 'Danny Champion
of the World', 'Of Mice and Men', 'the Cone Gatherers' etc. So much
hypocracy and dubious values (Danny Champ, fed to 8yrs portraied a class
struggle in which it seemed to condone theft and tresspass). Thank you
Brother teacher! You made some people of my year and area grow up with
screwwed up values and didn't find the World a bowl of cherries!
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  4 01:16:03 1999
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Vo,
Checked out 
http://wims.unice.fr/~wims/wims.cgi?session=3826D12E&lang=en&module
=adm%2Flight&phtml=new.phtml.en

And Laplace/Fourier Transforms but it could handle the case where I put a
general fn in, it kept saying ambiguous fn or something similar. I'm
trying to solve this:

O''(t)cosO(t) - O'(t)^2.sinO(t) - f/2mr = 0

I just wanted to get all the terms with L{O(t)} and then get the inverse.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  4 05:52:47 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Electrolysis Cell: Heat Pump-Thermal Accumulator
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To: Vortex

Going by the Boltzmann Transport Equation, heat available to the leads
feeding
the cell, can be carried up a thermal gradient to the electrolysis cell, and
depending
on the heat capacity and transport properties of the cell accumulate in the
cell.

Essentially:

The ratio of  Electrical current density J in the lead wires to the Thermal
current density Q,
in the lead wires and the cell, as well as the Thermoelectric properties of
the electrodes,
and ion mobilities, can determine heat accumulation in the electrolysis
cell.

The fact that Mills' experiments showed no OU heat when using Sodium
Carbonate,
but showed OU heat using Potassium Carbonate in the aqueous electrolyte, and
Ed Storms' Pd loading levels for OU heat, changes the Thermoelectric
properties
of the Thermolectric circuit, indicates that this is an Artifact that must
be reckoned with.

Cold-trapping, or running the current leads through a heat reservoir might
allow one
to determine the magnitude of this Heat Pump Effect

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  4 07:44:34 1999
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At 07:30 AM 8/3/99 +0000, Jack Smith wrote:

On page 108 [of "Seeing Red"], Arp writes
"In 1964, Fred Hoyle and Jayant Narlikar proposed ...
a theory of mass which had its origin in Mach's principle ...
As time goes on it [the electron] receives signals
from a volume of space that enlarges as the velocity of light ...
Its mass grows in proportion to the number and strength of the
signals it receives."

Scott Little wrote:

Hi Jack,

Do you think they mean that the electron's mass is
growing as the size of the universe grows?

Hi Scott,

Apparently, in their theory, there is no need for the universe
to grow; nor is there any need for space - time curvature.  An
ordinary 3D universe works just fine.

Arp's primary interest seems to be experiment, not theory; and
he has adopted Hoyle's ideas because they provide a plausible
explanation for the physical association (certainly proved to my
satisfaction in "Seeing Red") between high redshift quasars and
their low redshift "parent" galaxies.

As the electron "ages", it becomes more massive.  Arp (and Hoyle)
consider this to be an experimental observation like water always
flowing down hill.  This mass increase has several consequences:
p. 227 "When a less massive electron makes a transition between
atomic orbits, the photon involved has lower energy and the
resulting spectral line is redshifted."
p.231 "Jayant Narlikar and P. K. Das ... show that as the particles
[electrons] gain mass, they slow down to conserve momemtum."

I know of no experiment that finds a difference between inertial
mass and gravitational mass.  So Mach's theory of mass (p. 227
"...when the subway stops with a jerk, it is the distant stars
that throw you down...") is also a theory of gravity.  I find
this connection between gravity and red shift subjectively
satisfying.

But, like almost everyone else on this list (I suppose), down
deep I'm really interested in the rewards of successful practical
applications, regardless of subjective satisfaction.
Arp's (Hoyle's) theory may provide a useful framework for design
speculations.

I don't think anyone will disagree that a small amount of energy
can release a large amount of energy in the combustion of hydrogen
and oxygen.  By E = mc^2, some mass must be lost by a subatomic
particle, for the sake of discsussion, let's say an electron.
Randall Mills proposes to gain more energy from the same amount
of hydrogen by reacting the hydrogen with potassium ions in the
presence of a catalyst.  Again, a plausible (useful?) mechanism
is the production of a lower-mass higher-velocity electron.

The evidence presented by Peter Graneau ("Infinite Energy", 
Volume 5, Issue 25, 5-99, p. 9) for the liberation of chemical
energy by "the ejection of ions from the atmospheric arc through
the strong encircling magnetic field should generate MHD (magneto
hydrodynamic) power" may also produce lower-mass electrons.

The tapping of the Zero Point Field could occur by producing
lower-mass electrons which are then regenerated by the ZPF.
Thinking about processes (devices) form the viewpoint of
producing lower-mass electrons could be useful.  Maybe!

Jack Smith



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Subject: Re: Gab about education
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95q.990804080036.7200C-100000 euston> from Cornwall RO at "Aug 4, 99 08:21:15 am"
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> for instance that company must take monopoly of
> the resource for several years. Examples
> 
> 1) Our 'deregulated' (un-regulated as one wag put it) buses. Public road,
> many buses competing unnecesarily (often dangerously and anti-socially)
> for passengers.
> 
> 2) Or the railway system. Much more rigid than roads, things must flow to
> time. Conseqence is that 'competition' gives a monopoly for 5 years to a
> company and in that time they can run down, overcharge the commuter.

Neither of these are examples of monopolies.  The end product of both is
transportation, and numerous real and potential alternatives exist in
each case.  These are "monopolies" (as are the vast majority of alleged
monopolies) in the fevered imagination of social engineers only -- or
state created and enforced monopolies for the benefit of a favored few.

It's only a natural monopoly if no other alternative could possibly
provide the same essential function.  In reality, there are virtually
no monopolies.  Few are possible, fewer exist or existed.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

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Subject: Fw: Computer Photo
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:11:56 -0700
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Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 9:00 AM
Subject: Computer Photo


> Wow I just tried this and It works, this is amazing.  Please send me your
> picture when your done with it
>
> M> > > > Use this for your wall paper.  My photo turned out perfect....Let
me
> > > know
> > > > if your photo is ok, if not, I will transfer the icon again.
> > > >
> > > > ----------
> > > > Subject: FW: Computer Photo
> > > >
> > > > > It's unbelievable what you can do with a computer these days!
> > > Check
> > > > this
> > > > > out!!
> > > > >
> > > > > Wow, go and check out this cool web site, it is a camera that
> > > lets you
> > > > > take pictures of your self right through the computer and then
> > > print it
> > > > > and or send it on to others.  Wow I am so impressed with how
> > > advanced
> > > > > technology can be!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > http://sites.netscape.net/zumaltsp/camera2.html
> > > >
> > >



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------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01BEDE61.C8496600--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  4 12:34:53 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gab about education
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Yeah try driving your car into London in the rush hour and tell me that
whoever owns public transport doesn't have a monopoly. Come on, year after
year increases in prices above the rate of inflation, one buys a ticket
for a seat and 90% of time cannot get one, cancellations, delays, filthy, 
smelly, dangerous, guardless carriages, broken ticket machines and irate
passengers having to pay penalty fares. Always fat directors and rich
shareholders. 

If you want to sell ultra monetarism, you'll have to pick a better example
than this one. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas! I'm just pragmatic.
Remi.

On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, John Logajan wrote: 

> Neither of these are examples of monopolies.  The end product of both is
> transportation, and numerous real and potential alternatives exist in
> each case.  These are "monopolies" (as are the vast majority of alleged
> monopolies) in the fevered imagination of social engineers only -- or
> state created and enforced monopolies for the benefit of a favored few.
> 
> It's only a natural monopoly if no other alternative could possibly
> provide the same essential function.  In reality, there are virtually
> no monopolies.  Few are possible, fewer exist or existed.
> 
> -- 
>  - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
>  - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
>  -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  4 12:35:59 1999
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John Logajan wrote:

> Neither of these are examples of monopolies.  The end product of both is
> transportation, and numerous real and potential alternatives exist in
> each case.  These are "monopolies" (as are the vast majority of alleged
> monopolies) in the fevered imagination of social engineers only -- or
> state created and enforced monopolies for the benefit of a favored few.
> 
> It's only a natural monopoly if no other alternative could possibly
> provide the same essential function.  In reality, there are virtually
> no monopolies.  Few are possible, fewer exist or existed.
> 

I, for one, will be glad when I can drive down the street and purchase
my electricity
from the _other_ power company!  ;^)

Patrick V. Reavis,
Abuser of Electrons

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  4 12:44:40 1999
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Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 15:32:51 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Mizuno progress
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Tom Stolper writes:

	In a 1000-second run, how quickly can Mizuno or Ohmori get into
	the best  energy-producing regime?  After a minute or two?

Mizuno compiled the 1000 second data runs. He has the flow calorimeter,
which you must have to hold a cell in one condition for a long period. If I
understand correctly, he drives the cell to the domain he wants to look at
(in temperature or current density), and when it stabilizes he starts
counting 1000 seconds. Or in practical terms, after the run he chops out an
appropriate 1000 second segment from a spot where conditions are stable. A
run can last 5000 seconds or so. I count roughly data points on the summary
graphs (50 runs of 1000 seconds each).

Conditions are not all that stable. These segments are an approximation, to
some extent. It has to be a reasonably long segment. Given the
fluctuations, I do not think that 100 or 300 second segments would be
meaningful.

>From room temperature it takes ~3 minutes to reach glow discharge, and it
reaches interesting, stable conditions by minute 5 or 10. You have to turn
the cell voltage up gradually and wait for amperage to drop as glow
discharge takes hold and spreads throughout the cathode. If you go too
quickly the temperature rises suddenly and the cell explodes. At least, the
top blows off with a terrific bang, according to Mizuno's assistant
Kawasaki, who stands a good distance away for the first 5 minutes of the
run. The cell is placed inside an thermostatically controlled air chamber,
an incubator. The sticker on the door says: "NOT Explosion Proof."


	(By the way, I do see the point of standardizing runs at 1000
	seconds for purposes of comparison.)

Yes, you cannot compare total energy output unless the duration is the
same. You could do average power, but Mizuno prefers to show total energy,
in kilojoules.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  4 12:47:59 1999
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Vo,
Come on! Is the Laplace Transform good at anything apart from contrived
textbook examples or is this another bit of 'applied maths' that pure
mathematicians tout? I've nether seen a textbook deal with functions of
functions ie
L{cos wt} is easy but what of say, L{cos f(t)} ? Okay so I go back to the
definition and try compute the thing myself but the example put here is
only easy. Some of these things are a pig to integrate and I can't see the
gain. I want an analytical solution. I think I'm going to end up guessing
it.

There always is a certain point with maths where it gets too complicated
and one just turns empirical. Text books gleam with 'easy' examples. I
never really was sold the 'maths trick' at uni for that reason and just
trusted experiment and judgement. It was a big lie and the academics know
it's a big lie too. 
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  4 13:09:13 1999
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At 01:55 AM 8/4/99 -0500, you wrote:
>At 07:30 AM 8/3/99 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>On page 108, Arp writes "In 1964, Fred Hoyle and Jayant Narlikar
>>proposed ... a theory of mass which had its origin in Mach's
>>principle ...  As time goes on it [the electron] receives signals
>>from a volume of space that enlarges as the velocity of light ...
>>Its mass grows in proportion to the number and strength of the
>>signals it receives."
>
>Hi Jack,
>
>Do you think they mean that the electron's mass is growing as the size of
>the universe grows?
>

There are numerous problems with Hoyle's etc model.  They tried to describe
a constant, static, universe that was eternal and in large respects,
unchanging.

They had matter being created in certain places, and disappearing in others
in a continuous eternal process.  See Peebles or others on cosmology.

rt

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Gab about education
In-Reply-To: <37A8B11E.4456 ro.com>
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At 02:31 PM 8/4/1999 -0700, Patrick V. Reavis wrote:

>I, for one, will be glad when I can drive down the street and purchase
>my electricity
>from the _other_ power company!  ;^)

   It is possible all over the US for large industries and has been for some time.  Of course, the better option is to install co-generation and sell your 
excess power to the grid.

   But at least in this area (Northeast US) the protocol is switching to the same model as the phone companies--the distribution network is a monopoly, but you can buy your power from anyone.


                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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>There always is a certain point with maths where it gets too complicated
>and one just turns empirical. Text books gleam with 'easy' examples. I
>never really was sold the 'maths trick' at uni for that reason and just
>trusted experiment and judgement. It was a big lie and the academics know
>it's a big lie too. 
>Remi.

Math helps you to make more educated guesses, Remi. :) Really!  In many
situations it will at least put you into the right ball park, which is no
mean feat.  From there you can fine tune things with experimentation.  But
you are also right, in that, any real world application will have variables
for which the relatively simple, idealised math equations do not account.
Many academics realise this, and I would even go so far as to say that most do. 

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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                 Microscopic Ball Lightning

Edward Lewis
Box 2013
Champaign, IL 61825

elewis1 hotmail.com
http://207.225.33.111

In the early 1990s, experimenters were trying to replicate the 
Fleischman-Pons effect. Matsumoto performed an experiment(1) of electrolysis 
with palladium electrodes and heavy water. He produced an electrode that had 
many near surface voids that were filled with elements and this phenomenon 
has been repeated so many times that it is become the major effect being 
studied by cold fusion researchers(2). While performing electrolysis 
experiments, Matsumoto put very thin Acrylite plastic sheets around the 
electrolysis apparatus to catch particle tracks the way that nuclear 
physicists do. But Matsumoto was surprised to find micrometer size ring 
markings with a variety of different configurations and inner designs in the 
plastic sheets after the experiments. In 1992, based on this research and 
the ball lightning books(3,4) and articles I had read, I proposed that there 
existed micrometer size and smaller ball lightning and that these were a 
locus of the cold fusion phenomena(5). Then based on other evidence, I 
conjectured that atoms themselves could be structured as tiny ball 
lightning, and started to then develop ideas for physical organization of 
phenomena including ideas about how atoms may move, aggregate, and cohere. 
The study of microscopic ball lightning will cause a revolution in the 
understanding of atomic processes and physical phenomena.

>From reading some ball lightning books and articles that I found, I realized 
that ball lightning exhibited a variety of behaviors that were highly 
anomalous to quantum mechanics and relativity theory, but that there were 
similarities to reports of cold fusion phenomena, including higher than 
expected energy production(6), and neutron emission(7), and apparent 
transmutation associated with ball lightning because some ball lightning is 
reported to leave strange residues of unusual elements such as sulphur(3, 
pages 73, 89, 112) or carbon. There was also the weird phenomena that ball 
lightning could travel intact through materials such as glass without 
leaving holes(6), though sometimes they did leave holes in materials(6). 
When I studied Matsumoto’s transmutation article(1), I realized that an 
explanation for both the trasmutation and the micrometer size voids could be 
the production and emission of very tiny ball lightning. His reports(8) 
about strange ring markings confirmed this idea since to reach the emulsions 
the emitted ball lightning traveled through water, glass, and air, just like 
the behavior of ball lightning. Then I read K. Shoulders’ reports(9) about 
his experiments with micrometer size objects produced by electrical 
discharges, and found much more collaborating evidence for this idea since 
the objects behaved like ball lightning as well. I read about Winston 
Bostick’s research with plasmoid production, and saw that the micrometer 
markings he produced by electrical discharge(10) looked very similar to the 
markings produced by electrolysis by Matsumoto(11,12). Then I understood 
that atoms might be structured like ball lightning, and that everything 
could be plasmoids of various sizes(12). Since 1992, Matsumoto and some 
other researchers have accepted the idea of microscopic ball lightning, and 
the role of micrometer size plasmoids in transmutation and excess energy 
experiments. Matsumoto continued to experiment with microscopic ball 
lightning and transmutation effects.

The various kinds of markings produced by Matsumoto by electrolysis and 
discharge show many ball lightning behaviors and shapes. Most of the 
markings are ring markings suggesting a toroidal or tubular ball lightning. 
Many show the markings of electrical discharge within the markings and 
extending outwards, similar to the discharge markings around the rings shown 
by Bostick(10). Some of the markings are simply holes. He has also found 
pits in electrodes similar to the pits that have been found in various kinds 
of electrodes and targets used for cold fusion experiments. The pits being 
reported in published articles are due to the impact of a plasmoids and the 
emission of plasmoids of various kinds. In the mid 1990s, Matsumoto showed 
markings on plastic that showed that some of the ring or tubular ball 
lightning behaved like whirlwinds(13), because they seemed to hop around and 
skim around on the surface of the plastic sheets, and even to hop between 
sheets that were set in parallel. I had predicted that people would find 
such markings, because I had assumed that ball lightning and atmospheric 
phenomena like tornadoes were basically the same phenomena(14). These 
microscopic markings in plastic are usually very clear and very interesting, 
and show many other ball lightning-like effects and even some wave markings 
around or within ring markings.

Formation of Anomalous States in Micrometer Size Areas on Electrodes

During the last few years, attention in cold fusion research has 
concentrated in understanding why small regions on the surface of electrodes 
form pits, voids, and cones, and why anomalous atomic transformations happen 
at these micrometer size spots on bulk electrodes. Some people have 
commented that something new forms in these spots. What seems to be 
happening at these spots is that the atoms start to exhibit the properties 
of plasmoids. The solution to the cold fusion problem is that atoms and 
particles are plasmoids, and may behave in all the anomalous ways as ball 
lightning and other plasmoids including as ball lightning converts to 
electricity or light.

It seems that in order for there to be anomalous atomic changes, the atoms 
should be in an anomalous state. Prior research on the effect on electrodes 
of pulsed electrical discharge has shown that on the surface of electrodes, 
just prior to explosions, a thin surface layer(15) of a liquid-like metal 
forms. The layer of liquid is anomalous because it may exist below the 
melting point of the metal. The atoms behave anomalously. They are 
independently mobile, like ball lightning. Just as ball lightning may 
convert to electricity, move through materials, divide or clump together, 
the atoms in these layers behave in the same way and may move through or 
into each other to produce the many kinds of anomalous elements and minerals 
several reseachers such as Matsumoto, Bockris, Silver, Dash, Mizuno, Ohmori 
and Nassisi have reported in their publications in major scientific 
journals. This anomalous liquid layer also explains why Ohmori(2), Silver, 
and many others find areas where there is recrystallization, the crystal 
growth, and the apparent liquid flow of materials. These layers may be very 
localized in scattered spots, just micrometer or smaller regions, and plasma 
wave phenomena may play on them. This liquid-like layer forms even in 
non-hydrogen impregnated metal, on electrodes in a vacuum. But it seems to 
be that the addition of hydrogen or deuterium skews this effect to give the 
characteristic range of reaction products people are familiar with now.

Atoms during certain kinds of stress show many other ball lightning-like 
behavior. They may also clump together and move out of the electrodes as the 
ball lightning that Shoulders and Matsumoto are finding. Where a ball 
lightning dissipates or contacts with materials, there may be residues or 
deposits of materials left around the inside of the apparatus or left 
outside after it travels through the container of the apparatus.

The liquid layer that may form as part of the process of transmutation or 
ball lightning production is very interesting. Centuries ago, Benjamin 
Franklin who led research in electricity and greatly contributed to the 
development of electrical theory and physics theory in general, described 
how lightning striking certain metal objects, such as a sword in a scabbard 
or coins in a cloth pocket, would melt the objects but not scorch the highly 
flammable material that held them. He called this phenomena "cold 
fusion."(16) This is certainly odd, since this phenomena suggests that the 
metal wasn’t warm enough to scorch the flammable material, though the metal 
liquified. Franklin also wrote that he replicated this cold fusion 
experimentally by electrical discharge. This liquid-like mobility of the 
atoms is superfluid at high temperature. I can imagine that the atoms became 
independently mobile like a group of ball lightning and begin to flow around 
and maybe through each other. And it is what Zhukov and Egorov and the many 
other researchers in electrical discharge had found, and what researchers 
experimenting with electrolysis are now finding. If instead of passing 
through, the atoms merge, new elements or clusters or plasmoids of various 
kinds form.

Zhukov and Egorov(15) described micrometer size ring markings that appear on 
their electrodes during rapid pulsed discharges, and showed a pulsed 
emission image picture of such rings on an electrode. The rings actually 
looks much like the raised rimmed pits found after transmutation experiments 
such as those found by Silver(17) and Ohmori(2). The craters seem to have 
rims that rise above the surface and seem to extend below the surface. I 
suspect that such rings that appear in the liquid-layer may be the ring 
plasmoids forming, and that they may leave the electrode and travel freely. 
But if they do not leave, and the liquid layer solidifies, they may become 
the rimmed pits that people find. Zhukov and Egorov described an hypothesis 
that the rings in the liquid layer are caused by wave phenomena that travel 
through the layer. This wave phenomena has been researched and is called a 
surface acoustic wave. If it is true that plasmoid waves produced the ring 
shapes in the liquid layers, then this would relate to large craters that 
were said to have been caused by the very great series of earthquakes in the 
South and Midwest of the United States called the New Madrid Earthquakes of 
1811-1813 since it was reported that the large visible earthquakes swells 
caused large craters on the land that were oval or circular in shape which 
filled with water and became ponds. The New Madrid earthquakes were so large 
that people could see the large wave swells moving across the land.

Plasmoid Waves

These ideas about phenomena necessitate new ideas about the cohesion, 
situation, and procession of phenomena. In particular, it has become 
apparent that there exists something called plasmoid waves that seem to 
cause vibrations in apparatus(18) and also left micrometer size wave pattern 
markings in plastics set out by Matsumoto(19). These plasmoid waves are 
associated with the conversion of plasmoids to electricity or light, or 
other energy, and may themselves cause plasmoid changes of various types 
including transmutation of atoms and changes of gravity and time, of 
plasmoidal situation and procession. In an early article about electrolysis 
of palladium(19), Matsumoto showed pictures of the plastics that he set out 
to catch particle tracks, and showed wave-like patterns on them that 
surprised him. He didn’t know what they were but he analyzed the direction 
of travel of the waves and showed that whatever caused the markings 
interfered with each other. The waves originated from the cell, and traveled 
outwards though water, glass, and air to contact the plastic sheets. Where 
there is transmutation of atoms or other changes, there is also the emission 
of plasmoid waves as I call them. The plasmoid waves are actual things, 
since upon contacting materials they have electrical effects. Earthquake 
waves for example have electrical effects such as discharges of electricity 
or static electricity, and upon contact with conductors such as wires make 
electrical surges in the metal.

Nassisi(18) recently reported in Fusion Technology that the windows to his 
apparatus repeatedly broke during his transmutation experiments. He thought 
that this may have been due to acoustic vibrations, but he wasn’t sure. Also 
around ball lightning phenomena and tornado phenomena, there is often 
reported a strange vibration in the air. Often, ball lightning and tornadoes 
are associated with strange levitation effects or strange effects in moving 
large objects. There are many reports of small ball lightning pulling or 
picking up cars or leaving dents, and the people often report a feeling of 
weightlessness or as if they were in an elevator, though the air was calm. 
For example, a person named Dr. Pettier saw fir trees being plucked up, and 
then "he felt a kind of pressure from above; he noticed an unusual smell of 
ozone; then he felt himself raised up, and this not by the wind, for it was 
calm, but as though by some invisible force." Also, "on many trees the 
foliage was scorched(20)." This particular tornado was also associated with 
ball lightning that made round holes with sharp edges that were left in 
window panes.

Usually, people who report about ball lightning events like this also report 
a strange vibration associated with the ball lightning. I myself have felt 
such a vibration during an experiment, and also during another ball 
lightning experience I had when I was a kid when I made tiny ball lightning 
only about a millimeter across by breaking a rock. The tiny ball lightning 
flew off in various directions but one of them circled me. I sensed a 
strange vibration and a high pitched sound if I remember correctly. 
According to my present understanding, the plasmoid waves may cause various 
kinds of changes such as transmutation and the revolution of the planets 
around the sun. There are reports that ball lightning have revolved around 
each other and around bigger ball lightning.

1)T. Matsumoto and K. Kurokawa, "Observation of Heavy Elements Produced 
During Explosive Cold Fusion," Fusion Technology, 20, 323 (1991).

2)T. Ohmori, T. Mizuno, Y. Nodasaka, M. Enyo, "Transmutation in a Gold-Light 
Water Electrolysis System," Fusion Technology, 33, 367 (May, 1998).

3)S. Singer, The Nature of Ball Lightning, New York, 1971.

4)Proc. First International Symposium on Ball Lightning (Fire Ball) -- The 
Science of Ball Lightning (Fire Ball) Tokyo, Japan, July 4-6, 1988, World 
Scientific Company, Singapore.

5)E. Lewis, "A Proposal for the Performance of Four Kinds of Experiments to 
Test My Own Hypotheses and a Statement of a Deduction about Phenomena," 
manuscript article, October 19, 1992.

6)G. Egely, "Physical Problems and Physical Properties of Ball Lightning," 
Proc. First International Symposium on Ball Lightning (Fire Ball) – The 
Science of Ball Lightning (Fire Ball) Tokyo, Japan, July 4-6, 1988, World 
Scientific Company, Singapore.

7)G. Dijkhuis and J. Pijpelink, "Performance of a High-Voltage Test Facility 
Designed for Investigation of Ball Lightning," Proc. First International 
Symposium on Ball Lightning (Fire Ball) -- The Science of Ball Lightning 
(Fire Ball) Tokyo, Japan, July 4-6, 1988, World Scientific Company, 
Singapore.

8)T. Matsumoto, "Observation of Quad-Neutrons and Gravity Decay During Cold 
Fusion," Fusion Technology, 19, 2125 (July 1991).

9) K. Shoulders, "Energy Conversion Using High Charge Density," Patent 
Number 5,123,039.

10)V. Nardi, W. Bostick et al., "Internal Structure of Electron-Beam 
Filaments," Phys. Rev A, 22, no. 5, 2211 (Nov. 1980).

11)T. Matsumoto, "Observation of Gravity Decays of Multiple-Neutron Nuclei 
During Cold Fusion," Fusion Technology, 22, 164 (Aug. 1992).

12) E. Lewis, "A Description of Phenomena According to My Theory and 
Experiments to Test It," submitted to Fusion Technology, December 1992.

13)T. Matsumoto, "Observation of Tiny Ball Lightning During Electrical 
Discharge in Water," sub. to Fusion Technology, Jan. 23, 1994.

14)E. Lewis, "Luminous Tornadoes and Other Plasmoids, Cold Fusion Times, 1 
(no. 4), 4 (Winter, 1994).

15)V. M. Zhukov and N. V. Egorov, "Study of the Appearing Rings in the 
Emission Image of a Field-Emission Cathode Prior to Explosion," Sov. Phys. 
Tech. Phys., 36, no. 3, 353, March 1991.

16)B. Franklin, Benjamin Franklin’s Experiments, I. Bernard Cohen, ed., 
Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1941, p. 211 and 223.

17)D. Silver, J. Dash, and P. Keefe, " Surface Topography of a Palladium 
Cathode After Electrolysis in Heavy Water," Fusion Technology, 24, 423 
(December 1993).

18)V. Nassisi, "Transmutation of Elements in Saturated Palladium Hydrides by 
an XeCl Excimer Laser," Fusion Technology, 33, 4, 468 (1998).

19)T. Matsumoto, "Interference Phenomena Observed During Cold Fusion," 
Fusion Technology, 21, 179 (March, 1992).

20)H. A. Hazen, "Electric Storms and Tornadoes in France on Aug. 18 and 19, 
1890" Science,17, no. 434, 304 (May 29, 1891).






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          Tornadoes and Ball Lightning

Edward Lewis
Box 2013
Champaign, IL 61820

elewis1 hotmail.com

http://207.225.33.111

Abstract

There are many reports of luminous tornadoes, including reports by people 
who have been inside tornadoes or seen into them from underneath. Those who 
have seen them from the inside or underneath report bright clouds, or light, 
or that the funnel was bright inside from much continuous lightning which 
"zigzagged" from side to side inside. According to Dessens who catalogued 
tornadoes in France, about one-half of the tornadoes that he catalogued were 
either "furrowed by lightning, or the bottom of the tornado "vomits" balls 
of fire, or in short the tornado is luminescent at one place or another." 
The purpose of this article is to show evidence for identifying tornadoes 
and ball lightning to be different sizes of the same general kind of 
phenomena. Certain anomalous characteristics of tornadoes and ball lightning 
are described and shown to be similar. There are anecdotal reports of ball 
lightning that were similar to whirlwinds, and of very brightly shining and 
very hot tornadoes. Recent evidence from T. Matsumoto’s discharge 
experiments that produced microscopic ball lightning is also discussed to 
further explain characteristics of ball lightning and tornadoes.


There are many reports of luminous tornadoes, including reports by people 
who have been inside tornadoes or seen into them from underneath. Those who 
have seen them from the inside or underneath report bright clouds, or light, 
or that the funnel was bright inside from much continuous lightning which 
"zigzagged" from side to side inside(1,2). According to Dessens who 
catalogued tornadoes in France, about one-half of the tornadoes that he 
catalogued were either "furrowed by lightning, or the bottom of the tornado 
"vomits" balls of fire, or in short the tornado is luminescent at one place 
or another(3)." This article contains several striking accounts, and recent 
experiments that produced microscopic ball lightning are also described in 
order to explain the behavior of tornadoes and ball lightning. In order to 
identify phenomena, people mainly look for similarities and evidence of 
interconversion. The similarity of phenomena is evidence of the identity of 
phenomena. Intermediate phenomena is also evidence of identity. And the 
interconversion of phenomena is proof of the identity of phenomena. The 
purpose of this article is to show evidence for identifying tornadoes and 
ball lightning to be different sizes of the same general kind of phenomena.


Reports of Atmospheric Luminescent Whirlwind Phenomena

Here are some striking reports.

A weather observer for the U. S. Weather Service named F. Montgomery(4) who 
was stationed in Blackwell, Oklahoma in May of 1955 reported a tornado that 
passed by in the evening at 9:27 P.M. that had a deep blue section that was 
near the top near the cloud layer and that was "very much brighter" than an 
arc welder and too bright for him to look at, though the tornado was 9 
blocks or 3600 feet away from him. I suspect that the bright section may 
have been toroid shaped. He reported that the air from the tornado felt hot 
and that the temperature as recorded by a thermometer at his instrument 
shelter rose from 74 degrees Fahrenheit to 80 degrees Fahrenheit when the 
storm struck. This is evidence of a spectacular rate of radiation. And he 
reported:


There were rapidly rotating clouds passing in front of the top of the 
funnel. These clouds were illuminated only by the luminous band of light. 
The light would grow dim when these clouds were in front, and then it would 
grow bright again as I could see between the clouds. As near as I can 
explain, I would say that the light was the same color as an electric arc 
welder but very much brighter. The light was so intense that I had to look 
away when there were no clouds in front. The light and the clouds seemed to 
be turning to the right like a beacon in a lighthouse(5).


According to a drawing of this tornado in an article by Vonnegut and Weyer, 
the tornado was conic shaped, pointed downwards, and the bright section of 
the tornado was 100 feet thick, about 800 feet above the ground, and about 
400 feet wide(6). Montgomery also reported that a few minutes after the 
storm passed there was a taste and smell in the air like that of burnt 
sulphur, and that the air was clammy, and that it was hard to breathe. A 
person named Lee Hunter saw this same tornado a little later, four miles 
north of Blackwell, Oklahoma. He reported:


The funnel from the cloud to the ground was lit up. It was a steady, deep 
blue light -- very bright. It had an orange color fire in the center from 
the cloud to the ground. As it came along my field, it took a swath about 
100 yards wide. As it swung from left to right, it looked like a giant neon 
tube in the air, or a flagman at a railroad crossing. As it swung along the 
ground level, the orange fire or electricity would gush out from the bottom 
of the funnel, and the updraft would take it up in the air causing a 
terrific light -- and it was gone! As it swung to the other side, the orange 
fire would flare up and do the same(5).


So it seems that the entire funnel became luminescent; and that the deep 
blue band of light that Montgomery saw was not intrinsically different than 
the rest of the funnel. It also seems that the tornado was layered.


This particular tornado developed from a thundercloud that had a large 
blinking circular pale blue spot that H. Jones(7) saw about one hour 
earlier, and that emitted electromagnetic radiation that Jones recorded 
using sferics storm tracking equipment in his laboratory. This phenomena was 
also tracked on radar. I suspect that the pale blue spot was a large ball 
lightning that was inside the cloud, and that it may have been blinking due 
to clouds rotating inside just as Montgomery reported, and that it was pale 
blue because it was seen through a cloud instead of directly as F. 
Montgomery saw it. H. Jones reported that the pale blue spot was continually 
blinking on for two seconds and then off for two seconds. I've seen movies 
that showed turning lighthouse lights, and they would seem to be often light 
for two seconds and dark for two seconds, so Montgomery's statement about 
the rate of turning like that of a beacon lamp on a lighthouse may match 
Jones' statement about the rate of blinking. However, according to many 
reports and even pictures in books (see the other articles), ball lightning 
may blink or even be dark for as long as they are observed. Jones also 
reported that during the tornado, there were lightning strikes occurring at 
a rate ranging from 2 to 25 per second(8), which is very much higher than 
the rate of strikes in thunderstorms. So there is much evidence that the 
blue ball lightning in the cloud developed to be the blue tornado.


Jones also reported seeing and tracking other blue lights(8) in clouds that 
he called "tornado pulse generators" at other times, and he wrote that they 
are not visible during the daylight hours. He wrote that the "pulse 
generator" may develop and remain active without subsequent tornado 
development. Reports of tornadoes like these seem similar to reports of 
large bright toroidal ball lightning-like objects tens of meters across that 
were associated with air or water vorticity like tornadoes.


Structures in clouds such as the ones seen by Jones are probably common. In 
a book about the Bermuda Triangle titled The Devil's Triangle, there is a 
drawing of a typical cumulonimbus cloud that was courtesy of the Aviation 
Training Division of the U.S. Navy. The drawing diagramed a typical 
cumulonimbus cloud structure, and in this diagram there is shown a black 
spot drawn in the base of the cloud, below the altitude of freezing, that 
was termed a "dark area." It is roughly similar in size and shape and 
position relative to the rest of the structure of the cloud as are the blue 
spots in the clouds drawn by H. Jones and shown in his article. I suspect 
that these phenomena are the same thing. Perhaps like some ball lightning, 
these structures in clouds may also be dark, or blink on and off. The "dark 
spot" in that diagram was shown to be just behind the roll cloud.


Vonnegut and Ryan even photographed two luminous tornadoes(6). And the 
original negative of this photograph was analyzed(9) using equipment called 
an isodensitracer. They did a densitometric study and concluded that "the 
luminous pillars constitute a genuine exposure and are not an artifact of 
either exposure or development." In fact, they pointed out certain features 
that seem to me to be features of luminous tornadoes.


Even if tornadoes are not glowing, this may be because they are shielded by 
clouds or debris, or maybe the tornado is radiating at frequencies that 
people can't see. Perhaps the sides of many or most tornadoes are opaque or 
not very translucent. Since in the U.S. most luminous tornado experiences 
happen at night though night-time tornadoes in the U.S. are relatively 
uncommon, perhaps the luminosity is more noticeable at night. Many of the 
pictures of tornadoes that I've seen show that the tornadoes are white even 
though the sky is overcast and dark. This may be evidence of luminosity that 
people have never noticed before. R. Jackson, who was also inside a 
tornado(10), reported that it "became light" inside, and a "white column."


More Evidence of the Identity of the Phenomena


Tornadoes and ball lightning seem to be the same phenomena, though the size 
varies(11). If a phenomena converts to another phenomena, they must both be 
manifestations of the same general kind of phenomena. People have seen 
intermediate forms, and the conversion of large ball lightning-like 
phenomena to tornadoes, and the emission of many ball lightning by 
tornadoes. There are many reports that luminous ball lightning break away 
from the bottom rims of tornadoes or that they are seen to emerge from the 
bottom. This phenomena is similar to the phenomena of small tornadoes 
forming and breaking away from the bottom of tornadoes. People have seen 
small dust devils or whirlwinds that were luminescent, and very large 
luminescent toroidal ball lightning that were like tornadoes. For example, 
as reported in the Monthly Weather Review, in Americus, Georgia on July 18, 
1881 at some distance from the town:


...a small whirlwind, about 5 feet in diameter and sometimes 100 feet high, 
formed over a corn-field where it tore up the stalks by the roots and 
carried them with sand and other loose materials high into the air. The body 
of the whirling mass was of vaporous formation and perfectly black, the 
center apparently illuminated by fire and emitting a strange "sulphurous 
vapor" that could be distinguished a distance of about 300 yards, burning 
and sickening all who approached close enough to breathe it. Occasionally 
the cloud would divide into three minor ones, when the whole mass would 
shoot upwards into the heavens(12).


This whirlwind divided into smaller whirlwinds and rejoined. This is similar 
to the reported behavior of many ball lightning phenomena, and also similar 
to the behavior of tornado phenomena. In his description of this particular 
whirlwind, W. Corliss wrote, "almost a meteor/tornado/ball lightning 
hybrid(13)."


For an example of a very large luminescent toroidal ball lightning that was 
like a tornado, the Silverton, Texas tornado of May 15, 1957 during which 20 
people died was observed by a resident of the town who reported a round 
light in the form of a ring that was about 40 or 50 feet above the ground 
and 40 or 50 feet in diameter(14). He said that the lightning came up from 
the

ground and corkscrewed around to join the ring and went up into the cloud. 
Intermediate phenomena are evidence of identity of phenomena which people 
have thought were disparate. And the interconversion of phenomena is proof 
of the identity of phenomena.


Both tornadoes and ball lightning(15) are associated with anomalously high 
energy output. Both have been reported to scorch the ground or vegetation. 
F. Montgomery reported that vegetation along the path of the Blackwell 
tornado was wilted or looked burned and that the tornado "dried the ground." 
Both ball lightning and tornadoes are associated with considerable 
electricity. Some ball lightning constantly discharge electricity, and by 
measuring the change of the earth electric and magnetic field in the 
vicinity of a tornado, some tornado researchers(16) have estimated that 
tornadoes are associated with a steady current of hundreds of Amperes for 
minutes at a time. This would be hundreds of times more than the electrical 
output of a thunderstorm. This high output of electricity and light 
radiation suggests energy production. Electrical discharges from tiny 
plasmoids are also shown by the micrometer sized plasmoid marks produced by 
Matsumoto, and Nardi and Bostick(17).


Plasmoid Phenomena Produced in Apparatus


In many articles about cold fusion produced by electrolysis and discharge, 
Matsumoto has shown many kinds of anomalous micrometer size traces that are 
of marks of objects that behave like ball lightning-like and plasmoids. 
Matsumoto has accepted my idea of tiny ball lightning, and he thinks my 
ideas about plasmoids for cold fusion is right. The traces Matsumoto has 
produced show that the plasmoids exhibit various anomalous behavior like 
ball lightning such as hopping and skimming, passing through glass, water 
and air, and emitting beams and sparks, and show that they are shaped and 
structured like them.


Ball lightning and tornadoes may move along a surface such as the ground and 
leave trails, holes, or furrows. The plasmoids K. Shoulders produced did so, 
and Matsumoto has shown pictures of interesting micrometer size trail marks 
that meander and even backtrack on plastic sheets. Tornadoes are often 
reported to leave furrows in the ground a few inches or several feet deep 
that may sometimes be more than a mile long(18). Matsumoto has also shown 
ring traces of the same size combined together in one place (19) (see Figure 
1) that are due to a toroidal or cylindrical plasmoid repeatedly hopping up 
and down and skimming on one spot of an emulsion. The microscopic ball 
lightning leave markings in plastic that look much like the markings that 
tornadoes leave on the ground.


Conclusion


In summary, there is a lot of evidence for identifying ball lightning and 
tornadoes as different sizes of the same general phenomena. Also, the 
microscopic ball lightning-like plasmoids are identifiable with tornadoes, 
especially in that they pass through glass without affecting the glass very 
much, and that they hop and skim like ball lightning and tornadoes, and that 
they discharge electricity and emit beams and sparks like ball lightning. 
Since the ball lightning like plasmoids are associated with transmutation 
and excess energy, we can expect that tornadoes are also.


References:


1. A. A. Justice, "Seeing the Inside of a Tornado," Monthly Weather Review, 
58, 205 (May, 1930).

2. S. Flora, "The Nature of Tornadoes," Weatherwise, 2, no. 2, 27 (April, 
1949).

3. J. Dessens, J. Rech. Atmos., 2, 91, 1965.

4. C. Moore, "Some Observations on the Tornado at Blackwell, Oklahoma 25 May 
1955, Reported by Floyd C. Montgomery...," Weatherwise, 9, no. 3, 97 (June, 
1956).

5. B. Vonnegut and C. B. Moore, "Electrical Activity Associated with the 
Blackwell-Udall Tornado," Journal of Meteorology, 14, 284 (June, 1957).

6. B. Vonnegut and J. Weyer, "Luminous Phenomena in Nocturnal Tornadoes," 
Science, 153, 1213 (Sept. 9, 1966).

7. H. Jones, "The Tornado Pulse Generator,"Weatherwise, 18, no. 2, 78 (April 
1965).

8. H. L. Jones, Research on Tornado Identification (3rd Quart. Prog. Rep., 
Contract No. DA 36-039 SC 64436), Stillwater, Okla. A. and M. College, 8-35, 
1955.

9. B. Thompson and R. Johnson, letter, Science, 155, 29 (January 6, 1967).

10. R. Jackson and S. Bigler, "Inside the Texas Tornado,"Weatherwise, 11, 
no. 3, 88 (June, 1958).

11. E. Lewis, "Luminous Tornadoes and Other Plasmoids, Cold Fusion Times, 1 
(no. 4), 4 (Winter, 1994).

12. Monthly Weather Review, 9, no. 6, 19 (July, 1881).

13. W. Corliss, Handbook of Unusual Natural Phenomena, Arlington House, New 
York, 1986.

14. B. Vonnegut and C. Moore, "Giant Electrical Storms," in L. G. Smith, 
ed.,Recent Advances in Atmospheric Electricity, Proceedings of the Second 
Conference on Atmospheric Electricity, Portsmouth, New Hampshire, May 20-23, 
1958.

15. G. Egely, "Physical Problems and Physical Properties of Ball Lightning," 
Proc. First International Symposium on Ball Lightning (Fire ball) -- The 
Science of Ball Lightning (Fire Ball) Tokyo, Japan, July 4-6, 1988, World 
Scientific Company, Singapore.

16. M. Brook, "Electric Currents Accompanying Tornado Activity," Science, 
157, 1434 (Sept. 22, 1967).

17. V. Nardi, W. Bostick, J. Feugeas, and W. Prior, "Internal Structure of 
Electron-Beam Filaments," Physical Review A, 22, no. 5, 2211 (November, 
1980).

18. A. A. Justice, "Seeing the Inside of a Tornado," Monthly Weather Review, 
58, 205 (May, 1930).

19. T. Matsumoto, "Artificial Ball-Lightning -- Photographs of Cold Fusion," 
manuscript dated Jan. 17, 1995 presented at the ICCF-5, April 9-13, 1995, 
Monte Carlo, Monaco.












Figure 1










































Figure 1: Tornado-like trail and hopping marks left on a sheet of Acrylite 
plastic by a toroidal or cylindrical microscopic ball lightning phenomena.

>From T. Matsumoto, ARTIFICIAL BALL LIGHTNING -- PHOTOGRAPHS OF COLD FUSION, 
January 17, 1995, presented at the Fifth International Conference on Cold 
Fusion, 1995, Monaco. This ball lightning marking was produced through 
electrical discharge in water and shows a combination of tornado behavior 
and ball lightning behavior. The plasmoid passed through water, glass, and 
air to reach the plastic sheets.

























>From: "e lewis" <elewis1 hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: formation of anomalous states in micrometer size areas on 
>electrodes
>Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 13:26:56 PDT
>
>
>
>THis was an interesting post. I am having to write this twice because the
>reply I sent earlier today didn't register back to me.
>
>You studied plasmoids during the last few years right?
>
>Could you tell me more about Hutchison?  and whether he also reported
>transmutation. There are a few other experimental reports like this.
>
>Benjamin Franklin experimented with this effect by electrical discharge
>also.  The atoms actually may pass through eachother or merge into 
>eachother
>the way that ball lightning does.
>Sorry to take so long to respond. Ed
>>From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
>>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>>Subject: Re: formation of anomalous states in micrometer size areas on
>>electrodes
>>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:10:25 -1000
>>
>>e lewis wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>> > The layer of liquid is anomalous because it may exist below the melting
>> > point of the metal.  And the atoms behave anomalously.
>>
>><snip>
>>
>> > This
>> > happens to metal at anomalously cool temperatures.  For example
>>sometimes
>> > metal objects with high melting points which are struck by lightning 
>>are
>> > found and the metal is melted into a glob but highly flammable material
>> > touching the metal is not even scorched.
>>
>><snip>
>>
>> > I think this is why Nassisi's windows kept breaking.  These waves
>>themselves
>> > are anomalous since they seem to be associated with time changes and
>>effects
>> > on material that are gravity or magnetic like.
>>
>>Kept thinking of the Hutchison phenomena while reading this. I saw the
>>video. Of course the events on the video could have been faked without too
>>much trouble, but I do get the impression that they probably weren't. He
>>has
>>racks full of hard metal parts rent asunder and sometimes liquified at
>>apparently low temperatures by some anomalous electrical process. Very
>>strange. I sure wish someone could get a solid handle on the conditions
>>that
>>cause these things to occur.
>>
>>This kind of thing defines what the "fringe" is all about. Astonishing and
>>"impossible" phenomena that just seems to keep popping up, yet managing to
>>avoid hard scrutiny by being so irreproducible on demand. Very 
>>frustrating.
>>
>>Besides everything else implied by these reports, the manufacturing
>>possibilities for casting and forming fancy metals at low temperature and
>>pressure are mind-boggling.
>>
>>- Rick Monteverde
>>Honolulu, HI
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
>
>


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  4 22:01:31 1999
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Laplace Transforms
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Remy Cornwall wrote:

> Come on! Is the Laplace Transform good at anything apart from contrived
> textbook examples or is this another bit of 'applied maths' that pure
> mathematicians tout? I've nether seen a textbook deal with functions of
> functions ie
> L{cos wt} is easy but what of say, L{cos f(t)} ? Okay so I go back to the
> definition and try compute the thing myself but the example put here is
> only easy. Some of these things are a pig to integrate and I can't see the
> gain. I want an analytical solution. I think I'm going to end up guessing
> it.
> 
> There always is a certain point with maths where it gets too complicated

Right. Lots of maths is too complicated to have a simple analytical solution.
That's reality. Most Laplace transforms are complicated. Only a few are
simple. Today we sometimes can make progress by numerical computation, but
even that bogs down in many cases. Before computers people did the best they
could with whatever tricks and contrivances they could come up with. 

Even trig functions are complicated. They couldn't be evaluated until we had
e.g. decimal numbers and series expansions, and even these are only
approximations. After people made trig tables and drew graphs and now have
pocket calculators, we think trig functions are simple, but only because we
became familiar with them.
===
Michael J. Schaffer


_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  5 02:08:14 1999
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Hi all,
Once again thank you Frederick for providing some links, shall check them
later.

I'm one of those people that doesn't exactly trust numerical solutions.
The old GIGO philosophy. I think one has to seriously go through the
number of iteration required and justify that one is not losing
precision and inventing answers. I don't know why analogue computers
went out of fashion.

Laplace transforms makes more work than it saves. It really doesn't
shed any light on the problem to be solved either - I guess that's why it
is 'applied maths'. For my problem, I don't think it even pertainent to
linearize. Linearization would be such a divorce from reality.

Anyway, maths doesn't 'do itself'; one has to be almost prescient and see
where one is headed to get the solution. It's a lot like chess and whether
one uses a Deep Blue or a Kasparov. 

I will have to take an educated guess after consulting one of those diff
eqn. cookbooks.
Remi.

On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Michael Schaffer
wrote:

> Remy Cornwall wrote:
> 
> > Come on! Is the Laplace Transform good at anything apart from contrived
> > textbook examples or is this another bit of 'applied maths' that pure
> > mathematicians tout? I've nether seen a textbook deal with functions of
> > functions ie
> > L{cos wt} is easy but what of say, L{cos f(t)} ? Okay so I go back to the
> > definition and try compute the thing myself but the example put here is
> > only easy. Some of these things are a pig to integrate and I can't see the
> > gain. I want an analytical solution. I think I'm going to end up guessing
> > it.
> > 
> > There always is a certain point with maths where it gets too complicated
> 
> Right. Lots of maths is too complicated to have a simple analytical solution.
> That's reality. Most Laplace transforms are complicated. Only a few are
> simple. Today we sometimes can make progress by numerical computation, but
> even that bogs down in many cases. Before computers people did the best they
> could with whatever tricks and contrivances they could come up with. 
> 
> Even trig functions are complicated. They couldn't be evaluated until we had
> e.g. decimal numbers and series expansions, and even these are only
> approximations. After people made trig tables and drew graphs and now have
> pocket calculators, we think trig functions are simple, but only because we
> became familiar with them.
> ===
> Michael J. Schaffer
> 
> 
> _____________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  5 02:18:04 1999
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Vo,
One can't always get an analytical solution but if you've posed the
problem correctly and have the bare bones essentiality of the set up and
say only a few degrees of freedom, there must be an analytical solution.
But then there is the 3 body problem which only has about 3 solutions. I
guess that's when they start inventing 'best guess maths' like Liapunov
stabilty functions - one can at least say something is bounded.
Mathematicians are human after all and guess just like the rest of us
(rather better guesses :)
Remi.

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Subject: Re: Deuteron "Stripping" in a D2-Ar-K, Discharge?
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To: Vortex

Since Argon makes up 1% of the atmosphere and is easy to come by, a mix of
D2, Argon, and Potassium vapor in a relatively cool discharge, might yield
low energy neutron "stripping" of deuterons and some other interesting
reactions.

             Ionization Potential (volts)        Dissociation Energy (ev)

              I             II              III                 D2 ---->  2
D

D2      15.5       -----           ----                         4.60

D        13.6       -----           -----                       -----

K        4.34      31.63          45.72                      -----

Ar      15.76     27.63           40.74                      -----

The  4.34 ev ionization energy  of the potassium  is close to the 4.60 ev
dissociation
energy of D2, so that should help make a cool discharge.

The 18 electrons of the Argon makes for a reasonable electron/deuteron ratio
that
precludes the need for more than trace quantities of potassium.

Thus, an electron-deuteron collision close to another deuteron or argon
nucleus, that
creates a neutrino-antineutrino pair on the proton end of the deuteron,
rendering it
neutral, should effect neutron "stripping" with the required 2.23 Mev energy
borrowed
from the third body nucleus (deuteron or argon) and concurrently form He4
plus
24 Mev, most of which is carried away by the ejected neutrino.

There is also the possibility of transmutation of  the argon, or He3 plus a
neutrino and a neutron.

Regards,    Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  5 09:04:02 1999
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May be of interest to Vorts,
Ron


On 12 Jul 1999 18:49:25 -0400, Scott2 mediaone.net (Scott Stephens) wrote:

> 
> "Paul M. Koloc" <pmk plasmak.com> wrote:
> 
> >We are getting a couple of papers reviewing our experimentally formed PMK/BL
> >work for the ISBL meeting in Antwerp this August.
> 
> Be nice to see a copy on the net...
> 
> >Yes the currents are energetic, and no, BL doesn't seem to require any microwave
> >maintenance. ---  just a single 100 micro second LC circuit pulse.
> >Besides, once hyperconducting, microwaves would be reflected.
> 

> What does hyperconducting mean? 

Hyperconducting means that the conductivity is between copper and
Superconductivity orders of magnitude wise.  Natural BL has a couple of orders
on the PMK/BLs that we produce.  Still we are up there, by 4-5 orders better
than copper.  

> The plasma charge carriers have relativistic velocities and are acting
> strange?

They seem to behave as predicted and are well trapped.  Dusty BLs are a real
problem because they have a kind of Resistive G-Mode instability.  

Tokamaks also experience hyper-conductivities when initial lower pressure 
discharges are performed.  Bob Taylor and UCLA ran a small tokamak with
energetic currents.  The currents in such a case seem to last forever.  T K Chu,
PPPL
 
> Is this like the Swarthmore Spheromak at
> http://laser.swarthmore.edu/html/research/SSX/current.html 

Like??  Yes ... but more advanced. 

PLASMAK (tm) magnetoplasmoid;  It's PMK for short.   
The PMK (plasma mantle and kernel) consists of a spheromak like plasma ring
which produces an image current in a cloaking plasma shell or Mantle. 
Consequently, the Kernel plasma torus doesn't diffuse plasma outward into the
vacuum field, nor does the innermost plasma of the Mantle diffuse impurities
toward the torus.  The main reason that diffusion is clamped is because of the
energetic (hyperconducting) currents.  So this construct is all plasma,
currents, and magnetic fields.  There are no solid vacuum vessels or magnetic
coils.  The Mantle is bounded by the surrounding blanket gas.  We are currently
interested in Ball Lightning, so we are studying its characteristics by forming
these in ordinary open atmospheric air.  Really fun stuff. We've beat the
lifetimes of bigger Spheromaks significantly.  

Incidentally, they form from a 100 microsecond current pulse, and nothing else. 
The detach and fly around.  

Fusion??  Sure just produce them from protium B11 and bring the boundary
pressure from 1 bar up to about 20kbar. Compressed the Kernel plasma would be
about the size of a ping pong ball or plum. Burn rates go by the density
squared, and the density goes by the compression ratio cubed.    

We receive meager bucks because are work is classified as "fringe".  
Most plasma physicists think that natural ball lightning doesn't exist and
anyone who reports seeing it is a kook. It's as if a natural phenomena doesn't
exist.  

We applied for the basic Spheromak patent in 1973. But anything with a solid
vacuum wall will never stand up to a real fusion burn.  So we trusted that
plasma science has useful concepts beyond the current understandings. And we
were right.  For example, the plasma corollary to: "Fields confine plasmas" is
"Plasmas confine vacuum fields" and it is just as true.  It's a big help to have
highly conducting currents.    

Glad to see the  fringy (non-tokamak) fusion chaps still have an active interest
in Spheromaks, they are certainly more advanced than the tokamaks.  

> or the Caltech spheromak at
> http://ve4xm.caltech.edu/Bellan_plasma_page/spheroma.htm?

+------------------------------------------------------------+
>|Paul M. Koloc, Neoteric Research, pmk plasmak.com; BX 1037  |
>|College Park MD 20740-1037; FAX 301 434-6737; V 301 445-1075|
>|VOICE (301) 445-1075 **Commercial FUSION in the Nineties**  |
>| Raising Funds: It's a tax exempt non-profit.  Please Help  |
>+------------------------------------------------------------+




On 04-Aug-99, e lewis wrote:
> 
<<< SNIPPED ALL>>>> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  5 14:32:42 1999
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All,
Going on holiday to see the eclipse in Cornwall. Back
following Friday or Saturday. Will unsubscribe. Will 
bring back pictures.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  5 16:13:04 1999
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Subject: Unusual semiconductor types
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	Dear Vo.,

	I recently have been doing a body of research of radio and
electronics and the part played by semiconductors Before Transistors, or
BT.   The community DID use semiconductors BT.  One example of
Semicondutors BT is the use of certain crystalline materials as detectors
for radio signals and lead sulphide or galena in well known. 
	Galena is not the only semiconductor from the era BT, MANY MANY
others were tried and, for the most part, this information is unknown or
lost.
	I have been extremely lucky to find several sources of seminal and
practical real world information discussing BT semiconductors in general. 
More recently the initial information has led to specific  applications,
the manufacture and sources for the materials and details of and for
processing the material.

	I am going to disclose one such "lost semiconductor".  I also will
have short discussion about this. 

	NOTE:   BTS is an abbrviation for Before Transistors Semiconductor


	BTS-1 and BTS-2

	The "lost semiconductor" is one of a class of devices which is
common today, but used to be rare.  Galena is lead sulphide and can be
used as a sensitive detector or diode in the RF, or Radio Frequency, range
of EM, electromagnetic radiation. 
	This lost semiconductor is or can be constructed using TWO
different materials.  This is common today, with multiple elements being
employed to make Light Emitting Diodes, or LEDs.  It was not so common in
1930 and before.

	The materials BTS 1 and 2 are oxides.  They may be used alone and
usually this is the case.  The BTS 1 and 2 can, however, be used together
and here is an example of some lost information. 

	BTS-1 is an oxide of zinc.   BTS-2 is an oxide of iron.  When used
together they exhibit an asymmetrical electrical behavior.  
	For comparison we can look at the voltage drop across some modern
semiconductors,  about 0.5 to 0.7 volts for silicon and 0.3 to 0.45 from
germanium.   
	These "old" BTS materials exhibit a sensitivity threshold of about
0.05 to 0.1 volts and a full scale range on the order of 0.22 to 0.25
volts.  The zinc material or BTS-1 exhibits a different conduction and
rectification curve shape as compared with BTS-2.

	NOTE OF CAUTION

	These materials are NOT miracle or magic. As far as I know BTS
1 and 2 do not detect gravity or time waves, nor do they detect or
generate scalar waves or tap ZPE.  Such new "discovery" of old materials 
are ripe for "New Age Quack Gadeteers", Amazing Froo Fraa Science, the
"Secret Keys" to hover boards, 10 KW sources that fit in a ball point pen,
sole and exclusive detectors of Alien Communication.

	On the other hand.....

	These little explored materials, on the other hand, do allow for
some interesting instrumentation and detection opportunities.  I have
found them to exhibit useful detection of radioactive particles and low
level ionizing radiation.   
	The asymmetrical electrical properties also can be used, along
with conventional semiconductors to apply real time analog compression to
wide dynamic range analog signals.  

	Some Real World Uses of BTS 1 and BTS 2

	a]	One type of hybrid circuit using BTS and conventional
semiconductors has exhibited an analog range of about 140 dBel in
compression circuitry
	b]	As a consumer appliction BTS 1 and BTS 2 can be used to
intentionally distort or "shape" an audio signal.  The "soft" sound of a
vacuum tube can be obtained withou the use of a vacuum tube.  Again 
a hybrid is used and this can mimic the distortion of "color" of a vacuum
tube.
	c]	As mentioned before the BTS 1 and BTS 2 materials can
detect ionizing radiation and radiactive particles.
	d]	Initial work indicates there are electro optical
properties and application.
	e]	Most interesting to me are the magnetic aspects of the
materials.   Iron is well known as a ferromagnetic material.  There is a
new area of investigation possible in this area.

	I will write again about this in a short while.

	  I have, at present, quite a large body of information about and
access to nearly every BT Semiconductor, to be abbreviated BTS, I have
uncovered.  This greater balance of information will remain trade secret. 
Contact me off line if any serious interest obtains. 

		Thank you in advance for your time.  Please feel free
to send this to any of your associates,

			John Schnurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  5 16:26:57 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Subject: Re:  Mizuno progress
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Jed,

Thanks for the clarifications.  It's too bad that experimental conditions 
aren't more stable, but I guess I have to eat a few words anyway.  This does 
sound like a serious excess heat experiment after all.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  5 18:48:39 1999
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Hi John,

http://www.tiac.net/users/reilly/levd-page.html

http://www.research.digital.com/wrl/techreports/html/TN-13/

Here are a couple that you may have missed, John.  Interestingly enough, the
lead reseacher's name for the experiment in second URL was Hamburgen.

Knuke



Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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In the middle of the 1700s, Benjamin Franklin wrote about what he called 
"cold fusion," an effect of lightning that he had replicated in his 
electrical discharge experiments.

Benjamin Franklin wrote that there were instances when lightning would hit a 
metal object in something flammable, and melt the metal entirely but not 
even scorch the flammable material around it.  He called this effect "cold 
fusion."  He also wrote that he replicated this effect experimentally.

Do people know of similar occurances?  Other than the Hutchison effect?  I 
suspect that what is going on is the manifestation of the plasmoid behavior 
of atoms.  This would be the explanation for the transmutation and excess 
energy and strange happenings.  The more that this phenomena can be studied 
and similar accounts collected and studied, the more the understanding of 
this set of phenomena.

See the Microscopic Ball Lightning article I posted yesterday.


>16)B. Franklin, Benjamin Franklin’s Experiments, I. Bernard Cohen, ed., 
>Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1941, p. 211 and 223.
>


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  5 20:00:47 1999
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	Dear Vol.,

	Do you have any references?

	

On Thu, 5 Aug 1999, e lewis wrote:
> Benjamin Franklin wrote that there were instances when lightning would hit a 
> metal object in something flammable, and melt the metal entirely but not 
> even scorch the flammable material around it.  He called this effect "cold 
> fusion."  He also wrote that he replicated this effect experimentally.
> 
> Do people know of similar occurances?  Other than the Hutchison effect? 

	What is the Hutchison Effect?
________________________________________________
	Can you please give concrete examples of:
	
	a] Excess energy
	b] Transmutation
	c] "Strange Happenings"?

  This would be the explanation for the transmutation and excess 
> energy and strange happenings.
-______________________________

  The more that this phenomena can be studied 
> and similar accounts collected and studied, the more the understanding of 
> this set of phenomena.
> 
> See the Microscopic Ball Lightning article I posted yesterday.
> 
> 
> >16)B. Franklin, Benjamin Franklin’s Experiments, I. Bernard Cohen, ed., 
> >Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1941, p. 211 and 223.
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  5 20:17:53 1999
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	NOTE: If this is out of line or offends, I will withdraw, and I
will ask any interested to work with me off line.
	Thank you in advance for you valuable time and considerations in
this matter.

			John Herman Schnurer


	Dear Folks,

	We have for a time now been exposed to some of the discoveries of
and "introductions" by Berkant.   Some of us have been exploring this
field and related fields for many years.  Many of the notices from
Berkant, and others, are investigations we have already seen.  This is not
bad, it is always nice to see with a "new set of eyes".

	I now ask a general question of all participants who wish to
respond.  The guideline[s] for this request is directed toward discussion
an example ... hopefully ... of REAL WORLD investigations and phenomena.
	By this I hope to get the idea across of an end we all might like
to see and this includes, but is not limited to:
	

	a] Real World investigation.  By this I mean, as hypothetical
example of different  contributions:
		*  What I have seen a lot of, but want to move forward
from "....... A pulso wave is theorized to be able to push space into time
resulting in a vector effect as described the the mathmatical expression
"%%#$%$^**)()" which obviously leads to a pulso wave changing time.  Pulso
waves are mathmatically dscribed as "%^^&(%^^*"  from which all should be
clear to everyone
		* What I would rather see:  A scramble wound air core
solenoid coil, about 3 inched in inside diameter is wound on an old
plastic or other non metallic coil form.  Copper enamelled magnet wire of
18 AWG (American Wire Gage) is used.  The coil is remived from the form
and insulated leads of flexible stranded wire are soldered and insulated.
	The coil is then taped firmly with cloth surgical tape.  This
gives us a donut shape about 3.3 inches in diameter with the cross section
of the windings being a little bit more than 1/2 inch.
	The coil is connected to a mechanical copper strip switch that can
be closed with a small wooden of plastic  "pusher", for safety.  A bank of
low Equivalent Series Resistance, or ESR, capacitors is charged from a
safety diode current source with a value of 80,000 mFd to a voltage of 30
to 45 volts.  The pusher is used to apply a single pulse to the coil.  The
resultant is observed, inductively, with an oscilloscope and a parallel
resistance and capacitance network is used until a lown waveform results,
as opposed to a decaying oscillation.  This is a single pulse,
unidirectional, reasonably flat and rapid.  
	This will drive a copper or brass coin into a plaster board on the 
ceiling.
	The above should be reduced to practice with the aid of a skilled
technical person as the instrument can cause injury, damage and is
potentially lethal and will affect pacemakers and other instruments.


		[if correctly done this WILL drive the coin!]

	b]	Hardball nuts and bolts, belt and suspenders engineering
... OR  How to make it really work ... whatever the "it"is.   
	c]	Reasonably detailed description of a hopefully
reproducible phenomena.
	d]	Description and discusion using common terms, as far as
possible, and if new terms are needed, then a definition and glossary.
	e]	Description and discussion of EVENTS and FACTS .... and,
if available in separate section, theory.  And, if appropriate Events and
Facts ... AND theory ... so one can see how it all fits together.
	f]	PROPRIETARY

		Some of the technical matter may be proprietary.  In this
case or cases the EVENTS and measurements, ie., temperature, voltage,
duration and so forth should be described.  If at all possible a third
party trusted person or "black box" should be used to corroborate.
Example of Black Box:  Arthur C Clarke observes the investigation and
appends a description of events with, in his own words, a corroboration
such as "On August 15 1999 I witnessed a coin being tossed by a 3 inch
coil.  There was a moderate "bang" sound and the coin jumped off wooden
table and hit the cieling.  It did not stich in the plaster board, but
this appeared to be only because of a power issue.  It seems reasonable
with sufficient funding Mssrs  RERER and Mmmes  YIYIYI would be able to
make a stronger force.  Please contact Mssr NUUUH, POC for the
investigators.

	Requested inforamtion, and other EGs please add to this listing:

	Gravity Modification
 	Inertia Modification
	Time issues
	Energy from expected and not expected pathways
	Methodology of and for:
		Generation and-or Aquisition od Signals
		Generation and controls of and for driving effect,
			ie., High voltage, high current, optical
	Expected and not Expected Modification of and for:
		Matter, "space", MSE, or Matter, Space and Energy 

	____________  In separate section  _____________

	Dowsing Reflex
	Healing Reflex
	Other human issues, including but not limited to sensory,
		communication, restoration or aiding human condition

	NOTE:  In this last section there is no common terminology, this
		has to be addressed
	NOTE:  The last section can VERY easily get gummed up and-or
		diluted with personal issues and culteral issues of
		Allah, God, Politics and other.... the effects and the 
		understanding is the goal here NOT which-what is BETTER or
		RIGHT .......... PLEASE


	THIS IS A BIG BILL TO COVER.... BUT ONE WORTH IT

	The question is.... can this be done without to much garbage?

	LAST:

	If this is thought ot be out of line, please say so, and I will
withdraw.  I made this list request broad because I feel too narrow a
focus will not win out.
		


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CC: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Message Question to all persons (fwd)
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990805232013.1955D-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
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August 5, 1999

John,

Regarding parts of your posting listed below: I would recommend that you
obtain a copy of a videotape from Eugene Mallove (Infinte Energy) of the First
Cold Fusion Seminar held at MIT in February, 1995. The seminar covered some
presentatiohns of strong replicable experiments done in the magnetic field
area which you seem to be interested in. Most likely, the presenters are still
active in the field, considering the results of their experiments. And they
are also of very proprietary minds

-AK-

>                 * What I would rather see:  A scramble wound air core
> solenoid coil, about 3 inched in inside diameter is wound on an old
> plastic or other non metallic coil form.  Copper enamelled magnet wire of
> 18 AWG (American Wire Gage) is used.  The coil is remived from the form
> and insulated leads of flexible stranded wire are soldered and insulated.
>         The coil is then taped firmly with cloth surgical tape.  This
> gives us a donut shape about 3.3 inches in diameter with the cross section
> of the windings being a little bit more than 1/2 inch.
>         The coil is connected to a mechanical copper strip switch that can
> be closed with a small wooden of plastic  "pusher", for safety.  A bank of
> low Equivalent Series Resistance, or ESR, capacitors is charged from a
> safety diode current source with a value of 80,000 mFd to a voltage of 30
> to 45 volts.  The pusher is used to apply a single pulse to the coil.  The
> resultant is observed, inductively, with an oscilloscope and a parallel
> resistance and capacitance network is used until a lown waveform results,
> as opposed to a decaying oscillation.  This is a single pulse,
> unidirectional, reasonably flat and rapid.

>         b]      Hardball nuts and bolts, belt and suspenders engineering
> ... OR  How to make it really work ... whatever the "it"is.
>
>         Energy from expected and not expected pathways
>         Methodology of and for:
>                 Generation and-or Aquisition od Signals
>                 Generation and controls of and for driving effect,
>                         ie., High voltage, high current, ----

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  5 23:49:53 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Benjamin "Cold Fusion" Questions:
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 02:55:22 -0400
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http://www.amasci.com/tesla/ballgtn.html

Hi John, the above URL should keep you busy for a while.;)

Knuke

>
>	Dear Vol.,
>
>	Do you have any references?
>
> 
>> Do people know of similar occurances?  Other than the Hutchison effect? 
>
>	What is the Hutchison Effect?
>________________________________________________
>	Can you please give concrete examples of:
>	
>	a] Excess energy
>	b] Transmutation
>	c] "Strange Happenings"?
>
>  This would be the explanation for the transmutation and excess 
>> energy and strange happenings.
 
>> 
>> >16)B. Franklin, Benjamin Franklin's Experiments, I. Bernard Cohen, ed., 
>> >Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1941, p. 211 and 223.
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  6 05:50:34 1999
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> >Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 00:00:54 -0500
> >From: NASA Science News <expressnews sslab.msfc.nasa.gov>
> >Reply-To: EXPRESSREPLY SSLAB.MSFC.NASA.GOV
> >To: express-delivery sslab.msfc.nasa.gov
> >Subject: Decrypting the Eclipse
> >
> >NASA Space Science News for August 6, 1999
> >
> >A Solar Eclipse, Global Measurements, and a Mystery: On August 11,
> >scientists around the world will attempt to solve a 45 year
> >mystery: Does a solar eclipse somehow affect the Foucault pendulum?
> >
> >Full Story at:
> >
> >http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast06aug99_1.htm
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  6 08:36:34 1999
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Idiotic quote from DePalma
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On http://depalma.pair.com/index.html, under the picture of the N-1
Homopolar Generator it says:

"If you can imagine it, it's imaginable - if it's imaginable, it must be
real."

- Bruce DePalma, 1997 (d. 1997)
                 

Good Grief! What a nightmare it would be if everything I imagined must be
real. In the last few days I made a number of blunders and speculative
errors about calorimetry. If half of what I imagined "must be real" we
might as well build a bonfire of textbooks. Reality would be topsy-turvy.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  6 15:30:18 1999
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Subject: Re: 1970's Aqueous LiOH Pool Discharge Experiment
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 16:26:39 -0700
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FWIW, looking at Mills' Hydrino experiments, I'm recollecting that an arc
disharge to
a pool of water saturated with LiOH, then K2CO3, NaOH, and Boric Acid
(H3BO)'
in a stainless steel pressure cooker, using a  15,000 VAC, 60 ma, neon
sign transformer where it would arc for a few seconds and the pressure in th
vessel would
rise Very Rapidly and extinguish the arc, then cool in a moment or so,then
arc and increase
the pressure and cut off, and so on.

The NaOH, K2CO3, and H3BO3 were chemicals that I had on hand in large
quantities
for Thermochemical Biomass research experiments, and I thought I was using
them for
"Control", but  I got the same effectwith them. I had wrongfully assumed 900
joules/sec input from
the power supply with about 4 liters of gas volume (air & steam) in the
volume above
the saturated aqueous pool which never even got much above room temperature
during the experiments.   Looking at the atoms involved in the experiment
with a Mills Perspective:

               Ionization Potentials
                I                II
H2       15.5          -------
H         13.6          -------
Li         5.40          75.64
B         8.29           25.15
C        11.26          24.38
N        14.53          29.60
O        13.62          25.12
Na        5.14          47.29
Ar       15.76          27.63
K          4.34          31.63

A heat pipe configuration with an insulated electrode arcing to the pool
surface
would make this an easy experiment to do calorimetry on.   Did I goof?
:-)       FJS

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  6 19:03:47 1999
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Subject: What's New for Aug 06, 1999

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 6 Aug 99   Washington, DC

1. COLD FUSION: RESULTS OF "PATTERSON CELL" TEST ARE WITHHELD.
Two years ago, Norman Olson told correspondent Michael Guillen on
ABC Good Morning America that he was taking a "Patterson cell"
back to Battelle Pacific Northwest Laboratories to see if it
could neutralize radioactive waste (WN 13 Jun 97).  He said he
was optimistic.  Alas, nothing more was heard about the test. 
Last week, Science magazine reported on a controversial proposal
to DOE for neutralizing radioactivity.  Since the proposal's
author was also involved in the Patterson cell, WN suggested that
someone should check with Norm (WN 30 Jul 99).  We have since
learned that the results of the PNL tests are proprietary and
have never been disclosed.  So WN asked: "Does PNL plan to pursue
this remarkable technology?"  The answer was an amused "No!"

2. ACADEMIC PORK: HOUSE ABANDONS ALL RESTRAINT IN FY2K BUDGET.
Earmarks in appropriations report language directing agencies to
fund science projects at specific institutions is at an all time
high, according to the Chronicle of Higher Education.  It's about
to get much worse. The budget caps mean that every pork project
comes at the expense of peer reviewed science.  With the loss of
the most vocal critic of scientific pork, George Brown, no one is
even bothering to disguise the pork.  It is appropriation by
intimidation. The FY2K VA-HUD Appropriations Report, for example,
"recommends" changes to the budget that would cancel or reduce a
half-dozen space science programs, while adding such things as
Science Centers at Glendale Community College and Ohio Wesleyan.

3.  CONGRESSIONAL VISITS!  The bad news: The House VA-HUD
Appropriations Bill, reported out of Committee last Friday, calls
for flat NSF funding and a 12% cut in NASA Science, Aeronautics,
and Technology funding (with Space Science down 11% and Earth
Science down 20%). The good news: Floor action will be delayed
until September, when Congress returns from the summer break.
>From August 7 to September 7, legislators will be back in their
districts. Visit or write to your representative or senator to
emphasize the importance of science!  Over the past 30 years the
federal investment in research and development, as a fraction of
GDP, has decreased by half.  We can only counter this trend by
speaking out.  Contact Helene Grossman at (202) 662-8718.

4. SHROUDED: "SCIENCE" STORY OF THE WEEK?  Carbon dating of the
Shroud of Turin in 1988 showed it to be a 14th century forgery. 
But wait!  Pollen grains found on the shroud are native to the
Gaza Strip.  Does this reopen the debate?  "The theoretical
physicist part of me is skeptical--carbon dating is pretty firm
evidence," said Michael Guillen on ABC's GMA. "But my religious
beliefs transcend any notion of scientific proof," he added.

Helene Grossman contributed to this week's What's New.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY  (Note: Opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) 

--------------0E4CCE89BCD1F5DC83E48DE2--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  7 16:07:36 1999
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>Subject: Web site announcement: EclipseCast.com
>
>NASA Space Science News for August 7, 1999
>
>Science NASA is pleased to present EclipseCast.com, a new
>web site devoted to sights, sounds, and science news from the
>August 11, 1999 total solar eclipse. On August 10 and 11 the
>site will feature live audio webcasts of a special radio
>transmission from Europe designed to test the effect of the
>eclipse on Earth's atmosphere.  On August 11, images of the
>eclipse as viewed from the path of totality in France will be 
>posted while the eclipse is ongoing.  For more information visit 
>http://www.eclipsecast.com
>
><a href="http://www.eclipsecast.com">link for AOL users</a>
>
>AUDIO ECLIPSE UPDATE: The UK's Merlin Communications and Science NASA have
>joined forces for the audio eclipse experiment described
>at the URL http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast04aug99_1.htm
>A special transmission of the BBC World Service will be beamed toward
>the USA the day before and the day of the eclipse to test ionospheric
>radio propagation conditions.  More information about this broadcast
>may be obtained at EclipseCast.com .  Also, an improved table of candidate
>monitoring frequencies for Hams has been posted at 
>http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast04aug99_1.htm#djs
>
>
>============================================================
>You are subscribed to NASA's Space Science News mail server. 
>This is a free service.  
>
>To add, remove, or change your address on this service,
>go to 
>
>     http://science.nasa.gov/news/subscribe.htm
>
><a href="http://science.nasa.gov/news/subscribe.htm">
>Link for AOL users</a>.
>============================================================
>
>Linda Porter
>Code SD23
>Science Systems Department
>NASA/Marshall Space Flight Center
>Huntsville AL  35812
>
>(256)544-7588
>(256)544-7128 (fax)
>linda.porter msfc.nasa.gov
>
>http://science.nasa.gov/
>
>
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  7 20:21:24 1999
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August 6, 1999

This is a second attempt to post on Vortex with a reduced format.

> August 3, 1999
>
> Vortex,
>
> The actual Malakoff article was in the July 23rd issue of Science, not
> the July 30th. My error.
>
> I have fowarded, as 1 attachment and the July 23rd Science article by Malakoff. The attachment is in pdf format (Miley's application Abstract). Judge for yourselves. It
> would be nice to identify the objectors and the reviewers. I'll see if Park responds.
>
> What bothers me is Miley's quoted statements distancing his work from
> cold fusion works up to now. And yet he claims excess energy and
> transmutarion. No guts, honesty, just expediant rationale, or what he
> claims as "radically different", "--this breakthrough science" as
> against cold fusion?
>
> -AK-

July 23rd Science article:

> PHYSICS:
> DOE to Review Nuclear Grant
>
> David Malakoff
>
> The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) is reconsidering a grant that critics say will fund "cold fusion" experiments. DOE officials this week announced that a special review panel will take a fresh look at the science underpinning the $100,000 project, whi
ch proposes to test a new method of transforming radioactive waste into harmless byproducts. The restudy represents a potentially embarrassing stumble for DOE's new $19 million Nuclear Energy Research Initiative (NERI), which DOE officials pledged would u
se top-notch external reviewers to pick the best projects (Science, 11 December 1998, p. 1980).
>
> The grant, to George Miley, a nuclear engineer at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign, is intended to fund tabletop experiments to test the feasibility of treating nuclear waste using low electric fields and thin metallic films to produce "low-
energy nuclear reactions." It's one of 45 awards, chosen from among 308 proposals and announced in May, for studies into everything from lightweight reactors to new radioactive waste cleanup technologies.
>
> In an abstract (neri.ne.doe.gov/awardlist.html), Miley noted that preliminary experiments in which nickel, palladium, and titanium films were "highly loaded with protons" and then energized with electricity had produced reactions that appeared to transm
ute radioactive elements into safer byproducts and produce "excess energy." The approach, he told Science, "was motivated by a swimming electron theory," which suggests that high electron densities on the films can aid nuclear reactions. Further trials, h
e wrote, were needed to nail down "this breakthrough science." In particular, he requested funds to refine materials and to perform analyses designed to make sure the byproducts were produced by the reactions and not by accidental contamination.
>
> The project's apparent similarity to controversial cold fusion experiments--which have unsuccessfully sought to use electrochemical reactions to spark energy-producing nuclear fusion at room temperature--raised eyebrows both within and outside DOE. An o
fficial at DOE's Germantown, Maryland, office first raised questions about the project in early June, according to NERI program manager John Herczeg. DOE officials decided that Miley's proposal should have been handled by the agency's Office of Science, w
hich arranged reviews of NERI's basic research proposals, and not by the Office of Nuclear Energy, which oversaw the program's engineering grants. In late June, nuclear office chief Bill Magwood asked the science office to look at the grant, for which fun
ds had not been disbursed. That office is recruiting three reviewers, who are expected to issue their opinion next month.
>
> One group, however, says DOE should act immediately. "The credibility of DOE will be irreparably damaged unless funding for this cold fusion proposal is immediately withdrawn," Edwin Lyman, scientific director of the Nuclear Control Institute, a Washing
ton-based arms control group, wrote in a 6 July letter to Energy Secretary Bill Richardson. The award, he told Science, "raises questions about the adequacy of DOE's peer review ... the whole [NERI] project needs to be looked at under a microscope." DOE o
fficials, however, say that Miley's grant is the only NERI award scheduled for further scrutiny.
>
> Miley says the turnabout "came as a complete shock." The proposal "is speculative but based on extensive experimental data," he says. And although his work has been identified as cold fusion, he say it is "radically different--we have trouble getting th
e cold fusion people to understand what we are doing." The difference, he says, is that whereas cold fusion experiments focus on fusing deuterium atoms, his work involves proton-metal reactions. He is also worried about the fate of three graduate students
 in his lab if DOE rescinds the award.
>
> The flap could also jeopardize NERI's future. Despite backing from White House advisory panels and several well-placed lawmakers--including Senate Budget Committee chair Pete Domenici (R-NM)--DOE has had trouble building political support for its nuclea
r energy science budget, which Congress zeroed out in 1997 due to concerns about quality and other issues. NERI's commitment to peer review helped reverse the tide last year, and program officials were hoping for a $6 million increase to $25 million next 
year. But "the idea that DOE is spending money on questionable science could renew the doubts," says one Senate aide. Whether or not the grant is canceled, he says, the episode "will prompt a lot of questions."
>
>
> Volume 285, Number 5427 Issue of 23 Jul 1999, pp. 505 - 506
> ©1999 by The American Association for the Advancement of Science.
>
> -------------------------------------------
>



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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Miley's DOE application information
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-----Original Message-----
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Miley's DOE application information


<snip>
>>
>> What bothers me is Miley's quoted statements distancing his work from
>> cold fusion works up to now. And yet he claims excess energy and
>> transmutation. No guts, honesty, just expedient rationale, or what he
>> claims as "radically different", "--this breakthrough science" as
>> against cold fusion?
>>
>> -AK-


Well, given the climate, if he said he was repeating the F&P experiment, he
would get shot down immediately. The antiaircraft battery has already
targeted him and is ready to fire.

In point of fact, his position is distinct from F&P. He does not use Pd. He
has a theory to propose. He and others have performed enough tests to say
that LENR is a new field of which F&P is a pioneering special case. Miley is
an "insider" in the nuclear community, Fellow of three major technical
societies.

If one is an administrator favorably disposed to award the contract in the
face of the ERAB report, one could say that Miley's proposal is distinct
from what went before. If not so disposed, the language does not defend him.

If he were successful with depositing thin films of thorium and uranium,
transferring this to really hot radioactive materials -- thin film
deposition of the same -- is a formidable engineering task.

Mike Carrell

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        "Gene Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Jurors see full video at filmmaker's trial
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Jurors see full video at filmmaker's trial

      Tuesday, August 3, 1999=20

      Jurors see full video at filmmaker's trial
      LINDA SATTER
      ARKANSAS DEMOCRAT-GAZETTE=20
      An unsolved mystery from 1987 that spawned years of investigations =
and conspiracy theories was thrust upon a federal court jury on Monday =
as the producer of a film about the subject was accused of defamation.=20
          Patrick Matrisciana of California is on trial for allegations =
aired in his 1996 documentary Obstruction of Justice: The Mena =
Connection, which focuses on the Aug. 23, 1987, deaths of two boys whose =
bodies were found beside railroad tracks in Saline County.=20
          The hour-long video, shown to jurors in its entirety, contains =
allegations that the deaths of Kevin Ives, 17, and Don Henry, 16, were =
murders that various public officials tried to cover up, from local law =
enforcement officers to state and federal prosecutors to the governor's =
office -- then occupied by Bill Clinton.=20
          Among the officials named in the video are Jay Campbell and =
Kirk Lane, both now lieutenants for the Pulaski County sheriff=92s =
office. They filed suit in April 1997, saying their reputations were =
destroyed when the film asserted that they were =93implicated=94 in the =
murders and ensuing cover-up by unnamed =93eyewitnesses.=94=20
          The men=92s attorney, Darren O=92Quinn, told jurors that he =
will ask them to return =93a substantial verdict=94 against Matrisciana =
that will send a message that =93we are not going to let people get by =
with making statements that damage people forever.=94=20
          Matrisciana is being sued personally and under the names he =
uses to do business: Citizens for an Honest Government Inc., Integrity =
Films and Jeremiah Films Inc.=20
          O=92Quinn contended in his opening statement that the film, =
which was produced in a =93very professional, very believable=94 manner, =
=93purports to be a documentary but is nothing but a tabloid-type =
production=94 designed to make money during Clinton=92s presidential re- =
election bid.=20
          =93It makes allegations of him being involved in a drug =
conspiracy reaching up to the highest powers of the world,=94 O=92Quinn =
said of Clinton.=20
          Although the trial isn=92t about the boys=92 deaths, O=92Quinn =
told jurors that =93there have been seven independent local, state and =
federal investigations on these deaths from the FBI to the U.S. attorney =
to the Arkansas State Police, and no one has conclusively said that it =
was a murder.=94=20
          The video has sold 300,000 copies at a price ranging from $4 =
to $19.95 each, he said.=20
          Matrisciana, who also produced a video called The Clinton =
Chronicles, said from the witness stand that he relied heavily on the =
diligent research and knowledge of Ives=92 mother, Linda Ives, and a =
for- mer Saline County prosecutor, Jean Duffey.=20
          =93They were also very active in writing the script,=94 he =
said of the two women, whom he said he believes to be credible.=20
          He said he felt he had to tell their story because he didn=92t =
think the =93mainstream media=94 had done an adequate job of revealing =
the truth in covering the story.=20
          As proof that some of the public corruption allegations in the =
film are correct, Matrisciana cited the convictions of former Saline =
County Prosecutor Dan Harmon on federal racketeering, conspiracy and =
drug charges.=20
          Matrisciana=92s attorney, John Wesley Hall Jr., told jurors =
that the plaintiffs must show that the film was produced with a reckless =
disregard for the truth.=20
          To support Matrisciana=92s belief that he was reporting the =
truth, Hall reminded jurors about the outcry that arose after former =
State Medical Examiner Dr. Fahmy Malak made an initial determination =
that the boys were killed while sleeping on the tracks in a =
marijuana-induced stupor. That outcry led to a reopening of the case, =
through which a Georgia pathologist examined the exhumed bodies and =
found both boys were killed before being placed on the tracks -- Henry =
by being stabbed in the back and Ives by being hit in the face with a =
rifle butt.=20
          Hall told jurors that Duffey=92s fight to find the boys=92 =
killers while working in an atmosphere of corruption eventually forced =
her from her position as chief of the county=92s drug task force. She =
now teaches school in Pasadena, Texas.=20
          The film surmises that the boys were killed because while =
walking along the tracks, they saw a plane fly low and drop a load of =
drugs that someone was there to retrieve.=20
          The trial is scheduled to last all week before U.S. District =
Judge Warren Urbom of Lincoln, Neb.=20

      Copyright =A9 1999, Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, Inc. All rights =
reserved.=20
    =20


Home




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      <P>Tuesday, August 3, 1999=20
      <H2>Jurors see full video at filmmaker's trial</H2><B>LINDA=20
      SATTER<BR><FONT size=3D-1><A =
href=3D"http://www.ardemgaz.com/">ARKANSAS=20
      DEMOCRAT-GAZETTE</A></FONT></B>=20
      <P>An unsolved mystery from 1987 that spawned years of =
investigations and=20
      conspiracy theories was thrust upon a federal court jury on Monday =
as the=20
      producer of a film about the subject was accused of defamation.=20
      <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Patrick Matrisciana of California is on =
trial for=20
      allegations aired in his 1996 documentary Obstruction of Justice: =
The Mena=20
      Connection, which focuses on the Aug. 23, 1987, deaths of two boys =
whose=20
      bodies were found beside railroad tracks in Saline County.=20
      <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The hour-long video, shown to jurors in its =

      entirety, contains allegations that the deaths of Kevin Ives, 17, =
and Don=20
      Henry, 16, were murders that various public officials tried to =
cover up,=20
      from local law enforcement officers to state and federal =
prosecutors to=20
      the governor's office -- then occupied by Bill Clinton.=20
      <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Among the officials named in the video are =
Jay=20
      Campbell and Kirk Lane, both now lieutenants for the Pulaski =
County=20
      sheriff=92s office. They filed suit in April 1997, saying their =
reputations=20
      were destroyed when the film asserted that they were =
=93implicated=94 in the=20
      murders and ensuing cover-up by unnamed =93eyewitnesses.=94=20
      <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The men=92s attorney, Darren O=92Quinn, =
told jurors=20
      that he will ask them to return =93a substantial verdict=94 =
against=20
      Matrisciana that will send a message that =93we are not going to =
let people=20
      get by with making statements that damage people forever.=94=20
      <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Matrisciana is being sued personally and =
under the=20
      names he uses to do business: Citizens for an Honest Government =
Inc.,=20
      Integrity Films and Jeremiah Films Inc. <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
O=92Quinn=20
      contended in his opening statement that the film, which was =
produced in a=20
      =93very professional, very believable=94 manner, =93purports to be =
a documentary=20
      but is nothing but a tabloid-type production=94 designed to make =
money=20
      during Clinton=92s presidential re- election bid. =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =93It=20
      makes allegations of him being involved in a drug conspiracy =
reaching up=20
      to the highest powers of the world,=94 O=92Quinn said of Clinton.=20
      <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Although the trial isn=92t about the =
boys=92 deaths,=20
      O=92Quinn told jurors that =93there have been seven independent =
local, state=20
      and federal investigations on these deaths from the FBI to the =
U.S.=20
      attorney to the Arkansas State Police, and no one has conclusively =
said=20
      that it was a murder.=94 <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The video has sold =
300,000=20
      copies at a price ranging from $4 to $19.95 each, he said.=20
      <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Matrisciana, who also produced a video =
called The=20
      Clinton Chronicles, said from the witness stand that he relied =
heavily on=20
      the diligent research and knowledge of Ives=92 mother, Linda Ives, =
and a=20
      for- mer Saline County prosecutor, Jean Duffey. =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      =93They were also very active in writing the script,=94 he said of =
the two=20
      women, whom he said he believes to be credible. =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; He=20
      said he felt he had to tell their story because he didn=92t think =
the=20
      =93mainstream media=94 had done an adequate job of revealing the =
truth in=20
      covering the story. <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; As proof that some of =
the=20
      public corruption allegations in the film are correct, Matrisciana =
cited=20
      the convictions of former Saline County Prosecutor Dan Harmon on =
federal=20
      racketeering, conspiracy and drug charges. <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
      Matrisciana=92s attorney, John Wesley Hall Jr., told jurors that =
the=20
      plaintiffs must show that the film was produced with a reckless =
disregard=20
      for the truth. <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To support Matrisciana=92s =
belief that=20
      he was reporting the truth, Hall reminded jurors about the outcry =
that=20
      arose after former State Medical Examiner Dr. Fahmy Malak made an =
initial=20
      determination that the boys were killed while sleeping on the =
tracks in a=20
      marijuana-induced stupor. That outcry led to a reopening of the =
case,=20
      through which a Georgia pathologist examined the exhumed bodies =
and found=20
      both boys were killed before being placed on the tracks -- Henry =
by being=20
      stabbed in the back and Ives by being hit in the face with a rifle =
butt.=20
      <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hall told jurors that Duffey=92s fight to =
find the=20
      boys=92 killers while working in an atmosphere of corruption =
eventually=20
      forced her from her position as chief of the county=92s drug task =
force. She=20
      now teaches school in Pasadena, Texas. <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The =
film=20
      surmises that the boys were killed because while walking along the =
tracks,=20
      they saw a plane fly low and drop a load of drugs that someone was =
there=20
      to retrieve. <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The trial is scheduled to last =
all=20
      week before U.S. District Judge Warren Urbom of Lincoln, Neb.=20
      <P>Copyright =A9 1999, Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, Inc. All rights =
reserved.=20
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  8 08:33:56 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Vorts,

I didn't mean to send the post about the Arkansas trial to Vortex, even =
if it does represent a rather interesting anomaly.

Ed Wall

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Vorts,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I didn't mean to send the post about the Arkansas =
trial to=20
Vortex, even if it does represent a&nbsp;rather interesting=20
anomaly.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Ed Wall</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  8 08:50:49 1999
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and what is this doing in my mailbox from a vortex energy list?  please
refrain from sending junkmail like this...thanks
-- 
           Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker keelynet.com
         http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
      Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  8 09:41:21 1999
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Subject: U.S. Department of Energy - Biography of the Secretary of Energy
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Since my daughter worked for Bill as press secretary-speech writer in the
early 80s, I'm tempted to rattle his cage on the Miley research funding. :-)

FJS

 http://home.doe.gov/glance/secbio.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  8 09:41:22 1999
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Subject: U.S. Senator Pete V. Domenici
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 10:38:32 -0700
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Since Pete has hold of the purse strings, perhaps a few inputs from
vortexians on the importance of Miley's research would be in order.  I've
always gotten favorable response from Pete and his staff on items in the
PUBLIC INTEREST, and The Physics say that George Miley's NERI funding  for
Nuclear Waste Remediation is VERY IMPORTANT!

F. J. Sparber     Belen,  NM

 http://www.senate.gov/~domenici/

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  8 10:54:03 1999
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Subject: Department of Energy - News Release (1 out of 8)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 11:51:56 -0700
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This is the D.o.E. NERI Program that is Supposed to fund George Miley's
Research.

 http://gils.doe.gov:1782/cgi-bin/w3vdkhgw?qryZCA0Hbopg;doehome-217

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug  8 13:42:34 1999
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Subject: CF session at ACS meeting
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1999 PACIFIC CONFERENCE
on
CHEMISTRY and SPECTROSCOPY
and the
35th ACS Western Regional Meeting
Ontario Convention Center, California

October 6-8, 1999

Visit Our Web Page at: http://www.vidrine.com/paccon

TECHNICAL PROGRAM

FRIDAY MORNING

Convention Center, Room 102

Electrochemistry

M. H. Miles, Organizer, Presiding

8:30 - 249. Cold Fusion: Past, Present, and Future. M. Fleischmann

9:20-250. The Present Status of Chemically Assisted Nuclear Reactions. E.
K. Storms

9:50-251. Anomalous Heat Production from Hydrogen Saturated Palladium.
M.McKubre, F. Tanzella and P. Tripodi

10:20-Break

10:30-252. Thermal and Nuclear Events in a Polarized Pd+D System. An
Overview of the Co-Deposition Method. S. Szpak and P.A. Mosier-Boss

11:00-253. Electrolysis of Heavy Water with Titanium Cathodes: Heat
Produced and Chemical Analyses of the Cathodes. J. Warner and J. Dash

11:30-254. Theoretical Considerations for 'Cold Fusion' Based upon
Co-production of Heat and Tritium. R.T. Bush and M. R. McGovern


FRIDAY AFTERNOON

Electrochemistry, Batteries, Fuel Cells


M. H. Miles, Organizer, Presiding

1:30-255. Calorimetric Studies of Pd/D20+LiOD/Pt Electrolysis Cells. M. H.
Miles

2:00-256. The Impact of SEL Films Upon the Low Temperature Performance of
Lithium-Ion
Cells. M. C. Smart, B. V. Ratnakumar and S. Surampudi

2:30-257. Development of Low Cost, Low Crossover Polymer Electrolyte
Membranes for Direct Methanol Fuel Cells. G. K. S. Prakash, A. Atti, G.A.
Olah, S. R. Narayanan, M.C. Smart, T. Valdez, S.Surampudi and V. Pleynet

3:00-Break

3:10-258. Factors Affecting the Performance of Direct Methanol Fuel Cells.
T. I. Valdez and S.R. Narayanan

3:40-259. Improved Thermal Batteries Using Molten Nitrate Electrolytes. M.
H. Miles

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  9 01:34:16 1999
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Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 09:32:49 +0100
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For those of you that weren't able to listen to this show, due to living
out of the
country (like me), or just plain missing it, I've put an archive on the
web at:

    http://www.tao.org.uk/vortex/

(Please note, I've not got permission to do so from the radio company,
and may
be asked to take it down without warning.)

Regards,
Joe

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Subject: Re: High Flux Neutron Generators
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To: Vortex

Thinking about the possibility  that a discharge of  a mixture of D2 or D2O
in Argon might act as
a neutron source, by way of low energy "stripping" of Deuterons, I ran a
quick patent search
at www.patents.ibm.com  95 hits on the keywords "neutron generator" .  :-)

US 3,746,859 and 5,053,184 are "high intensity" generators, but probably not
enough flux to
get  breakeven  by using the neutrons to fission Boron 10; (n + B10---> Li7
+ He4 + 2.73 Mev.

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  9 08:05:43 1999
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Subject: Re: High Flux Neutron Generators
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At 08:29 AM 8/9/1999 -0700, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> US 3,746,859 and 5,053,184 are "high intensity" generators, but probably not
> enough flux to get  breakeven  by using the neutrons to fission Boron 10; (n + > B10---> Li7+ He4 + 2.73 Mev.

   True, but there are several neutron absorbing reactions that produce considerably more energy per neutron.  Many are in the 10 Mev range, and there aare some interesting cases which "breed" neutrons.  High temperature fusion people concentrate on Be9 +
 n --> 2 He4 + 2 n, while fisson people are more interested in Thorium, Uranium, and Plutonium. ;-)

   So yes, you can generate power that way.  There has even been research done on fusion/fission systems, where neutrons from the fusion reaction fisson U238 to provide most of the energy, and sub-critical nuclear reactors, where a particle (usually neutr
on) beam keeps the reaction going.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: High Flux Neutron Generators
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>To: Vortex
>
>Thinking about the possibility  that a discharge of  a mixture of D2 or D2O
>in Argon might act as
>a neutron source, by way of low energy "stripping" of Deuterons

***{Based on what reasoning? Are you envisioning a glow discharge tube
containing such a mixture? If so, you might check out the Sternglass
experiment [see *Before the Big Bang*, by Ernest Sternglass, pg. 83-85]. He
used a hydrogen filled glow discharge tube at a mere 35,000 volts, and got
neutrons, despite the fact that none should have appeared until the
potential difference reached 780,000 volts. Moreover, his experiment has
been replicated, and is an anomalous result that is recognized, albeit
ignored, by mainstream physics.

By the way, was there an earlier post in this thread, as the "Re" seems to
indicate? If so, the vortex server is acting flaky again, because I didn't
receive it.

--Mitchell Jones}***

 I ran a
>quick patent search
>at www.patents.ibm.com  95 hits on the keywords "neutron generator" .  :-)
>
>US 3,746,859 and 5,053,184 are "high intensity" generators, but probably not
>enough flux to
>get  breakeven  by using the neutrons to fission Boron 10; (n + B10---> Li7
>+ He4 + 2.73 Mev.
>
>Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  9 09:14:24 1999
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----- Original Message -----
From: Robert I. Eachus <eachus mitre.org>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, August 09, 1999 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: High Flux Neutron Generators

Robert I. Eachus wrote:


> At 08:29 AM 8/9/1999 -0700, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> > US 3,746,859 and 5,053,184 are "high intensity" generators, but probably
not
> > enough flux to get  breakeven  by using the neutrons to fission Boron
10; (n + > B10---> Li7+ He4 + 2.73 Mev.
>
>    True, but there are several neutron absorbing reactions that produce
considerably more energy per neutron.  Many are in the 10 Mev range, and
there are some interesting cases which "breed" neutrons.  High temperature
fusion people concentrate on Be9 + n --> 2 He4 + 2 n, while fisson people
are more interested in Thorium, Uranium, and Plutonium. ;-)

Good Morning, Robert.

After perusing a few patents, (neutron source keyword got 300 hits on
neutron generators and applications patents) I conclude that an
off-the-shelf  Hydrogen Thyratron with a mix of D2, Argon-Xenon would make
an interesting neutron generator.   :-)   A  6 ampere unit with 60-100 volts
arc (360-600 watts plus heater power) should generate "stripping neutrons"
like gangbusters. I gather that the "grid" also lessens ion bombardment of
the thermionic cathode, too?

The deuterium-argon-xenon mix will probably slow down the pulse rep-rate
compared to the Hydrogen Thyratrons
that were/are used in high power radar xmtrs.
>
>    So yes, you can generate power that way.  There has even been research
done on fusion/fission systems, where neutrons from the fusion reaction
fisson U238 to provide most of the energy, and sub-critical nuclear
reactors, where a particle (usually neutron) beam keeps the reaction going.

Thanks, for the info, Robert.

Regards,     Frederick
>
>                                         Robert I. Eachus
>
> with Standard_Disclaimer;
> use  Standard_Disclaimer;
> function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  9 11:35:53 1999
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Here you go, Robert.

Richardson Electronics Ltd, www.rell.com sells Gas/Mercury and Hydrogen
Thyratons. All you need to do is substitute D2 for H2, or
mix D2 in with the Gas or Hg Thyratrons to promote low energy "stripping" of
the neutrons from the deuterons.  :-)

You might add some Potassium and get some "Hydrinos",too.

With a Boron 10 or Boron Carbide "jacket" to get, n + B10---> He4 + Li7 +
2.78 Mev , for a 600 watt input,you only need about
5.4E15 "stripped" neutrons/second to go on-line. :-)

BTW. n + Be9 --->   2 He4 + 2n must be for high energy neutrons, because Be9
is used as a reflector for thermal neutrons, right?

Regards,    Frederick


http://catalog.rell.com/rellecom/scripts/GroupSearchResults.asp?SK1=thyratro
n&SK2=+&T1=5&T2=3&maxrecs=50&T3=2&prevkey=+&recfirst=0&reclast=0&searchtotal
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  9 15:16:48 1999
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Subject: Re: High Flux Neutron Generators
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At 12:30 PM 8/9/1999 -0700, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>BTW. n + Be9 --->   2 He4 + 2n must be for high energy neutrons, because Be9
>is used as a reflector for thermal neutrons, right?

  Not really.  Beryllium does reflect low energy neutrons pretty well, and has a fairly high fission cross section at low energies too.  You might want to look at http://www.dne.bnl.gov/CoN/nuc/B/Be9.shtml and pull up the chart there.  (By the way, I thin
k that the reason there are two fission cross sections there, one elastic and one inelastic is the normal fisson is considered "elastic", since the triggering neutron is not directly involved in the reaction.  (It bounces, then the nucleus dissociates int
o two alphas and a neutron.  The inelastic path is, I think, Be9 + n --> Li7 + t which doesn't release neutrons.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  9 15:47:19 1999
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A friend is moving and has two, new (still crated), 6 ft. dia, 6
GHz
(spread-spectrum subband) feedhorn microwave dishes left over
from a
project that never got off the ground.  Gabriel brand.

Yours for shipping from Atlanta, GA or pickup.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  9 17:01:00 1999
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Could you use them for solar dishes if they were mirrored?



>From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Free Dishes
>Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 18:47:22 -0400
>
>A friend is moving and has two, new (still crated), 6 ft. dia, 6
>GHz
>(spread-spectrum subband) feedhorn microwave dishes left over
>from a
>project that never got off the ground.  Gabriel brand.
>
>Yours for shipping from Atlanta, GA or pickup.
>
>Terry
>
>


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  9 17:27:15 1999
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----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Aldo <prospector85 hotmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, August 09, 1999 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: Free Dishes


Hi Pete, long time no see.

Is the focal point the 22,000 (+/-) miles to a geosynchronous satellite?
:-)

Regards,    Frederick


> Could you use them for solar dishes if they were mirrored?
>
>
>
> >From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
> >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> >Subject: Free Dishes
> >Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 18:47:22 -0400
> >
> >A friend is moving and has two, new (still crated), 6 ft. dia, 6
> >GHz
> >(spread-spectrum subband) feedhorn microwave dishes left over
> >from a
> >project that never got off the ground.  Gabriel brand.
> >
> >Yours for shipping from Atlanta, GA or pickup.
> >
> >Terry
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  9 19:41:29 1999
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

> ....you might check out the Sternglass
> experiment [see *Before the Big Bang*, by Ernest Sternglass, pg. 83-85]. He
> used a hydrogen filled glow discharge tube at a mere 35,000 volts, and got
> neutrons, despite the fact that none should have appeared until the
> potential difference reached 780,000 volts. Moreover, his experiment has
> been replicated, and is an anomalous result that is recognized, albeit
> ignored, by mainstream physics.

ignored??

I don't think so. Ever heard of the Farnsworth Fusor - or George Miley?
Scott Little, who posts regularly here, has details of his Fusor online at:

http://www.eden.com/~little/fusor/bigsys3.html

The Farnsworth Fusor can produce significant neutrons at low voltage, 20-40k,
but Scott has convinced me that these are not "stripped" neutrons. However, the
surprising output of these machines is itself an anomaly. BTW , there are many
of these fusorite guys out there - read the posts on Richard Hull's Fusor
discussion group:

http://www.songs.com/cgi-bin/discussion.pl/philomsgbd:www.songs.com/

Or for a for a more concise guide on how to build one:

http://fus.x0r.com/theory.html

Listed below are some excerpts from previous posts on Vortex related to the
Miley Fusor.

Subject: Miley-Farnsworth device  - Miniature fusion:

Dr. George Miley of the Fusion research center at the U. of
Ill (USA) has built a "Farnsworth Fusor".

It produces 10^10 neutrons per second from the D-D reaction.

Plans are (with Daimler Benz) to MARKET the devices for around
$60,000 (US) as "controlled neutron sources".

For information contact:
Rebecca S. Van Meter
Editor, Fusion Technology (American Nuclear Society)
Urbana IL    Phone 217-333-2295, fax 217-333-2906


   The "problem" with the Farnsworth approach is low power density.  Yes
you get a very high neutron flux, but not scientific, breakeven. You end up with
an electrostatic confinement fusion device which produces neutrons and about 78
watts of total energy.  Farnsworth put in nearly 12 Kilowatts and got about 10.0
milliwatts out, a factor of a million away from wall-socket break-even,
self-sustaining or not. Use those neutrons in subcritical fission, and you can
turn the total output power into a megawatt without any enriched uranium.  But
obviously most of the energy you get is fission, and it is if anything, a little
dirtier than standard light water reactors.  So the device remains an
interesting source of high-energy neutrons.

Subject: Farnsworth Fusor - Output Calcs  from the Farnsworth Page:

With deuterium gas in the Mark II Model 2 Fusor a count exceeding
 50 M?neutrons cc/sec was recorded at 80 Kv. and 30 mA. input.
This device produced 1.3 G-neutrons/sec. in a sustained
 reaction for more than one minute. These reactions were stable,  completely
under the operator's control, and could be repeated.

 On October 5, 1965 the Fusor Mark II?Model 6 was tested.
 A reconfigured, high?precision ion gun arrangement produced
 l G?neutrons cc/see at 20 Kv. and 1 mA .... a record achievement.

 The Mark III Fusor produced startling high records in quick succession.
By the start of 196.5 the team was routinely  measuring 15.5 G-neutrons/sec. at
150 Kv and 70 mA..

Engineering Issues of Gridded Inertial Electrostatic Confinement (IEC) Devices

John M. De Mora, Luis Chacon, George H. Miley
Fusion Studies Laboratory 100 NEL, 103 South Goodwin Avenue  Urbana, Illinois,
U.S.A., 61801-2984

          The inertial electrostatic confinement (IEC) concept
          employs a grounded spherical chamber, filled with a
          gaseous fusionable fuel, and an internal cathode biased
          at a high negative voltage. Several alternatives may be
          considered for the inner cathode: an inner spherical
          semi-transparent grid biased at a high negative
          potential is the simplest approach, although overheating
          (due to collisions of energetic ions) and neutron
          irradiation may hamper the integrity of the grid. Other
          approaches have replaced the inner grid by a virtual
          cathode, created by confining an electron cloud within
          the IEC chamber. This is done either using
          quasi-spherical-cusp magnetic fields (POLYWELL=99), or
          with penning traps. Although the grid losses are avoided
          in both, there is no experimental confirmation of their
          ion focusing properties, and great concern exists about
          the quality of the electron confinement and the
          dispersion of the ion density distribution in velocity
          space.

          On the contrary, gridded IEC systems have shown, under
          certain experimental conditions, the successful
          formation of ion microchannels, which entail very good
          ion focusing properties. In addition, the scaling of
          these systems for commercial exploitation is very
          attractive due to the simplicity of the power core
          (which should result in a low cost), the compatibility
          with direct conversion, and low projected maintenance
          costs. Nevertheless, major concern exists about the
          integrity of the grid due to plasma heating and neutron
          irradiation.

          The integrity of the grid can be preserved, for a fixed
          fusion power, by increasing its surface (i.e., its
          radius) to enhance radiation cooling, and by providing
          active cooling within the grid wires. In this study, a
          hollow tantalum grid, actively cooled by a pressurized
          water circuit is considered. Radiation cooling is
          disregarded, hence providing for a security margin in
          the design. The heat transfer analysis will show that,
          for a grid maximum temperature of 1000 C, and assuming
          reactor gains of ~ 5, grid radii ~ 1.5 m are possible
          for fusion powers of 800 MWth. In such conditions,
          typical heat fluxes across the grid wires surface are ~
          0.32 KW/cm2. However, the issue remains if a grid of
          this radius and transparency can retain adequate
          focusing for IEC operation. To study this, a correlation
          of focal spot vs. grid radius and transparency is being
          developed and benchmarked against present smaller
          diameter IEC devices.

          REFERENCES
          1. G. H. Miley et al., Dense Z-pinches, eds. M. Haines
          and A. Knight, AIP Conf. 299, AIP Press, NY, 675-689 (1994).

        2. R. W. Bussard, Fusion Technol., 19, 273-293 (1991).

          3. D. C. Barnes et al., Proc. International Sherwood
          Fusion Theory Conference, Dallas, TX, 2C28 (1994).

          4. J. M. De Mora et al., Proc. IEEE-NPSS 16th Symposium
          of Fusion Energy, eds. G. H. Miley and C. M. Elliott,
          IEEE, Piscataway, NJ, 1486-1489 (1996).

          5. R. W. Bussard et al., Fusion Technol., 26, 1326-1336
          (1994). DEAR ALL: Dr. Miley calls his devices "Inertial
          Electrostatic Confinement" devices. In his two papers
          (contact him directly please! Or at least the U. of IL
          Fusion studies department.) he properly credits
          Farnsworth. The last time I communicated with him on the
          progress, about 3 months ago, he had been turned down
          for at least one DOE grant, and I believe I heard a
          third party tell me he now has the ignominious
          distinction of having been turned down for two more
          grants. Boggles the mind I'd say. Particularily because
          through Diemler Benz Dr. Miley is offering the devices
          at $60K a crack as "switchable neutron sources". Similar
          "accellerator based" neutron sources sell for closer to
          $250K, and demand 50KW input, versus the 5KW or so that
          Dr. Miley is using.

(IEC)  The Fusion Studies Lab is Located at the University of Illinois at
Urbana- Champaign. You can contact us at:

Fusion Studies Lab
100 Nuclear Engineering Lab
203 S. Goodwin Ave
Urbana, IL 61801 USA

Publications: Fusion Technology
Fusion Technology is a journal supported by the American Nuclear Society and is
edited by George H. Miley. For more information on Fusion Technology





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----- Original Message -----
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 cwnet.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, August 09, 1999 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: High Flux Neutron Generators


> Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
> > ....you might check out the Sternglass
> > experiment [see *Before the Big Bang*, by Ernest Sternglass, pg. 83-85].
He
> > used a hydrogen filled glow discharge tube at a mere 35,000 volts, and
got
> > neutrons, despite the fact that none should have appeared until the
> > potential difference reached 780,000 volts. Moreover, his experiment has
> > been replicated, and is an anomalous result that is recognized, albeit
> > ignored, by mainstream physics.

Jones Beene wrote:
>
> ignored??
>
> I don't think so. Ever heard of the Farnsworth Fusor - or George Miley?
> Scott Little, who posts regularly here, has details of his Fusor online
at:
>
> http://www.eden.com/~little/fusor/bigsys3.html
>
[Snip other great links and info]

But with pure H2 here, you are talking  P+P ---> D + e+  plus a neutrino
which is near the 2 kev (22 million deg K)
Solar Burning Temperature at the core, then neutron stripping of D ---> P +
neutron. But to produce the e+ and e- pair in
the P+P reaction you need at least 1.02 Mev.

OTOH, getting closer to CF "tunneling" the P-e-P ---> D + neutrino reaction,
then neutron stripping of D.

Both the P-e-P ---> D + neutrino, and the low energy "stripping" seem to
require proximity to a heavy third body nucleus that can provide the 2.23
Mev deuteron stripping energy. this can be a heavier nucleus (possibly even
helium) or the container wall matter  that can absorb a proton or neutron
and exoergically undergo transmutation/fusion.

Now we are back to Three-Body Collisions that can produce a
neutrino-antineutrino pair and conserve energy. Judging by the "Solar
Neutrino Problem" where about 2/3 of the neutrinos from 4P ---> He4 + 2 e+
plus 2 neutrinos are missing,
one can conclude that something funny is going on. This is the "window" for
CF/LENR-CANR phenomena.

Same Church, Different Pew.   :-)

Regards,     Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  9 21:49:29 1999
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Subject: Testatika Principle Rediscovered  ?
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With regard to the recent announcement by Rex of the ATGroup of the
Thermal Magnetic Battery (TMG) and the Magnetic Flux Virtual Conduit
(MFVC):

http://www.atgroup.org/tmb.htm

 Please compare this to:

http://utenti.tripod.it/~testatikmachine/principle

Doesn't anybody else see the similarities ?


What do you think about this Rex ???

Please Rex, if you have not yet caught the "inventors disease" please
give more information so that others may duplicate successfully the LED
driving device known as MFVC.  Try to describe it as if a high school kid
were going to build it.

There are many areas for exploration with this.   For example....

What are the effects of ionized air on the device ?

What happens if the magnetic bias field is modulated ?

What other metals might be used for the plates ?

Do perforated plates work better ?

What if the dielectric is a polarized electret ?

What if the dielectric is piezoelectric or ferroelectric ?

Does the device depend on temperature differences between its parts or
can it operate at a uniform temperature ?

Is the device negentropic, in other words does the device absorb heat
from its environment in apparent violation of the 2nd Law of
Thermodynamics ?

Many possibilities exist, but it must firmly be establish that there is a
true anomaly here and not some more conventional explanation.  This can
be done by widespread replication and verification.  Otherwise all we
have is another legend.

Tim
( tv juno.com )

------------------------------------

If you are not familiar with the fascinating testatika machine, take a
look at these web pages:

http://www.overunity.de/devices.htm

http://utenti.tripod.it/~testatikmachine/

http://colossus2.cvl.bcm.tmc.edu/~wje/free_energy/testatika.html

There seem to be two rumors floating around about the Testatika machine
and its possible power source.  

One theory is that it is somehow powered by radium chloride like the
Hubbard coil a special transformer containing radium invented by Alfred
Hubbard a young man from Seattle Washington who worked for a company that
refined radium.  The Hubbard coil produced enough power to run a motor
boat.  It was seen by numerous witnesses and reported extensively in the
Seattle newspapers.  It has recently been replicated and patented by
Physicist Paul Brown.  He demonstrated it publicly as well.  As I
understand it, the working principle is still not fully understood as it
seems to extract more power from the radium than should be available. 
Paul calls the Hubbard coil, a resonant nuclear battery.   Interestingly,
Paul has done much recent work on another radioisotope power source
called the contact potential cell which uses the current generated by
dissimilar metals or semiconductors exposed to alpha or beta radiation. 
Last I heard, He is developing tiny cells that could power microchips. 
This would be useful for tiny miniaturized devices like microtransponders
that could operate for decades without an outside power source such as a
battery or solar cell.   Incidently, this would be ideal for injectable
microchip transponder tags.  The dark side of this is it would be ideal
for a "mark of the beast" electronic money system described in the book
of Revelation.

One researcher I talked to in Southern California claimed that he
smuggled a miniature Russian made geiger counter into one of the
demonstrations of the Testatika put on by Methernitha in late 1980's.  
He claimed the counter registered considerable radiation from the
Testatika machine.   He kept it hidden from his hosts view.  Switzerland
would certainly be a good place to find some extra radium watch dial
paint sitting around.   

However, another possibility is that his geiger counter was being
"fooled" by the ionized air.  I know the one I have can give false hits
with static electricity.

The inventor Paul Baumann of Methernitha firmly denies that the Testatika
contains any radioactive materials.

The other theory about the Testatika is that it is powered by static
electricity from the atmosphere picked up by some kind of antenna.  There
is a patents for extracting power from atmospheric electricity.   I have
seen pictures of a small motor powered by atmospheric electricity
demonstrated by  professor Jeffeminko (sp ?).  One patent by a German
inventor named Paulson described an elaborate system for tapping
atmospheric power using balloon born antennas.  This patent claimed
considerable power in the multikillowatt range, but the antennas were
very large and tall.  Potentially very dangerous in a lightning storm.
(punn intended)

The antenna theory seems unlikely to me since it was reported that some
of the small testatika machines could be moved while operating.   It
would seem that more people would have noticed the antenna.

Perhaps the "TMB" discovery is the key ?

Tim
( tv juno.com )

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Subject: Re: High Flux Neutron Generators
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>By the way, I think that the reason there are two fission
>cross sections there, one elastic and one inelastic is the normal fisson is
>considered "elastic", since the triggering neutron is not directly involved
>in the reaction.

This is garbled. 

An elastic interaction is one in which no energy is either transferred to or
released from the interior of the particles (the neutrons and nuclei in this
case). The KINETIC energy of the product particles equals the KINETIC energy
of the two colliding particles in elastic interactions.

In inelastic interactions, energy in the interior(s) is modified, and the
KINETIC energy is not conserved in the collision.

Be is used as a neutron multiplier in thermonuclear fusion power: Be9 + n -->
2n + Be8 --> 2n + 2He4.  This is an inelastic reaction. Neutrons are needed
to breed tritium from Li. Some extra neutrons are needed to make up for
parasitic neutron capture by the reactor structure, so that the net breeding
ratio will exceed unity.

BTW, reactions like Be9 + n --> 2n + Be8 are not usually called fission
reactions. The word fission is reserved for reactions where the nucleus
splits into roughly equal parts.
===
Michael J. Schaffer


_____________________________________________________________
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Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 10 00:52:09 1999
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I have been sending the following message to various FE researchers looking
for comments.

>I just received Alexander Frolov's  CD. He mentions an article written in
>the late '60's by Alexander Chernetsky and Yuri Galkin of the Institute of
>Electric Engineering, Moscow entitled Self Generating Discharges. I'm going
>to see if the U of MN has an English translation. Frolov also mentioned that
>Spartak Poliakov has published an English edition of Introduction to
>Experiemental Gravitonics. I'm going to see if I can get a local library to
>purchase a copy.
>
>     It would seem to me that a plasma vortex in a box would make an
>excellent energy source if we can contain it,  It has also occured to me
>that containment might prove to be a problem, particularly if we are
>dealing with the force that makes the sun shine.  I mentioned Ken
>Shoulder's patents in my last email Frolov, maybe he is reading them. The
>next question I'm going to ask him is what gravity waves might have to do
>with plasma vortexes.
>
>     The management of Agape Food for Peace, a 501-C3, is looking for an
>energy source to power small food processing facilities, 500 KW would be a
>good size. Someone offered them a hydrogen based system, I told him that
>he'd better let me look it over before he spends any money on it.  The only
>two hydrogen based alledged overunity systems that I know of are the late
>Stan Meyers and Randall Mills. Perhaps it is one of the Japanese cold
>fusion patents. I'm just itching to see what he comes with.
>



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 10 03:51:47 1999
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These are a few possible reactions:

1, P+P(e+ & e- and neutrino-antineutrino pair production)---> D + e+ plus
neutrino (7E9 years,requires at least 1.02 Mev))

2, P-e-P(neutrino-antineutrino pair production)---> D + neutrino (many-body
collision)

3, D "stripping"---> P + Neutron (many-body collision to provide the 2.23
Mev P-n separation energy)

4, D+D---> T + P +  4.0 Mev (can now do reaction #1)

5, P-e-P(neutrino-antineutrino pair production)+ He4---> Li6 + neutrino

6, D+P-e-P(neutrino-antineutrino pair production)---> He4 + neutrino + 23
Mev

7, D+He3---> He4 + P +  18.3 Mev

8, D+T---> He4 + n + 17.6 Mev

Somewhere in all of this, the electrons and heavier nuclei are playing a
major role,in effecting tunneling, which, IMO, "condensed cold plasmas"
(like Pd,or water) with some 6.8E22 atoms/cm^3 and 46 electrons/atom provide
the environment for CF-LENR-CANR reactions,more so than hot plasmas with one
electron/proton or deuteron and atom densities of 7 to 8 orders of magnitude
less.

Regards,     Frederick

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The force between two nuclei at separation distance, R:

Force = Z1*Z2*k*q^2/R^2

At R = 3.0E-15 meters (3 Fermi) **about the classical radius of the
electron** the force between two deuterons or protons is:
2.304E-28/(3E-15)^2 = 25.6 Newtons or about 5.75 POUNDS on particles that
"weigh" about 1.66E-27 Kg!

Since F = m*a   a = 25.6/1.66E-27 = 1.54E28 meters/sec^2! At that
acceleration they should be radiating like crazy:

Wr =  .66*2.304E-28*(1.54E28)^2/(3E8)^3 = 1.33 joule/sec and sucking ZPE
like you wouldn't believe, as they disappear. :-)

However, if an electron "runs interference" by being at the right place at
the right time, on one of the deuterons or protons, Z1 or Z2 goes to zero,
and the force goes to ZERO.

Charge Z*q(+/-) is sacrosanct, and does not conveniently disappear for
"quantum mechanical tunneling".

Having lots of electrons, and thus heavy nuclei such as Ar, Kr, or Xe, or
whatever,around, should help boost the odds.

This is why, from an energy investment standpoint, CF-LENR-CANR is a better
deal, even if you don't get anything.

Regards,     Frederick

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Peter Aldo wrote:
> 
> Could you use them for solar dishes if they were mirrored?

That was one of the things we discussed using them for . . . a
solar oven.  Someone else suggested a rather large wok.  They
were bought for a terrestrial microwave shot using the spread
spectrum channels at 6 GHz which don't require coordination nor
licensing.  The customer went broke shortly after paying for the
hardware.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 10 08:10:52 1999
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At 09:52 PM 8/9/1999 -0700, Michael Schaffer wrote:
>This is garbled. 

    Uh, I didn't use that word, but I did find the data seriously confusing.

>An elastic interaction is one in which no energy is either transferred to or
>released from the interior of the particles (the neutrons and nuclei in this
>case). The KINETIC energy of the product particles equals the KINETIC energy
>of the two colliding particles in elastic interactions.

>In inelastic interactions, energy in the interior(s) is modified, and the
>KINETIC energy is not conserved in the collision.

    Correct, that's the way I learned it too. But, did you look at the data I was referring to?  For elastic scattering it reads:

Elastic Scattering Cross Section

    at 0.0253 eV = 6.151 b 
    Maxwell avg. at 0.0253 eV = 6.151 b 
    at 14 MeV = 959.3 mb 
    Fission spectrum avg. = 2.673 b 
    g-factor = 1.1284 

Total Inelastic Cross Section

    at 14 MeV = 22.90 mb 
    Fission spectrum avg. = 38.95 micro barn

Notice that the elastic scattering fission spectrum is about 70,000 times the inelastic scattering cross section, and over a third of the total for elastic scattering.  What I was saying was that I suspect that all the neutron emitting fissions are includ
ed in the elastic cross section instead of separating out those cases where the neutron is scattered elastically and the nucleus then "spontaneously" fissions.  You could separate those two cases, but it would be very difficult.  That would mean that the 
(very low) inelastic scattering data only included reactions which do not emit neutrons.

>Be is used as a neutron multiplier in thermonuclear fusion power: Be9 + n -->
>2n + Be8 --> 2n + 2He4.  This is an inelastic reaction. Neutrons are needed
>to breed tritium from Li. Some extra neutrons are needed to make up for
>parasitic neutron capture by the reactor structure, so that the net breeding
>ratio will exceed unity.

    I know all that, but including Be8 as an intermediate is questionable, since it has a "half-life" of 6.8 eV.  It might be possible to determine the existance of a Be8 resonance in the reaction, but it would be tough.  (I think that most studies of Be8
 have used Li7 + p --> Be8, which involves only charged particles.)

>BTW, reactions like Be9 + n --> 2n + Be8 are not usually called fission
>reactions. The word fission is reserved for reactions where the nucleus
>splits into roughly equal parts.

     ..and some neutrons.  Be9 + n --> 2 He4 + 2 n seems to fill that bill.
If you have evidence for the Be8 intermediate, then Be8 --> 2 He4 certainly does.  However, the fisson cross section data is not mine, and that is where the term came from.  I know that fusion fanatics like to call even B11 + p --> 3 He4 fusion, but perso
nally I prefer not to apply fusion to cases where all the products weigh significantly less than one of the original nucleii. 

                                        Robert I. Eachus

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 10 08:43:20 1999
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Subject: yellow water
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Anybody got any ideas why Austin tap water (~1000 ppm Ca) turns yellowish
after quite a bit of room temp hydrogen gas is bubbled through it?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 10 08:55:57 1999
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   I like to make a distinction between self targeting, where deuterium impacting on a surface with adsorbed deuterium produces neutrons, and stripping, where the reaction involves a high-Z target.  Not all targets produce stripping, and not all targets p
roduce self-targeting.  But in either case, and in the Farnsworth Fusor, you have the same phenomena.  A pich effect occurs, which focuses the deuterons into a narrow thread.  This thread can be fastened to a surface, or in a plasma.  In either case the d
euterons in the pinch gain energy from the pinch, and thus have enough energy to produce nuclear reactions.  (No this is not energy from nothing, the self compression effect of the magnetic field couples the energy of the deuterons together.  I'm not sure
 if you can get a Bose-Einstein condensate, but the matter density is very high.  (I've always wanted to try the experiment with colliding beams of d+ and d-, but I think that is what happens in the fusor.)

    In any case, you get lots of neutrons, but enough of them are from d --> p + n to make direct energy production unlikely.  However, if you can get several MeV from each of the neutrons produced, you are in fat city.  Nuclear fisson produces about 200 
MeV per event, but even B10 + n --> He4 + Li7 could do the trick.  (The reason for focusing on this reaction is the very high neutron absorption cross-section.  Another intersting possibility is Mn55, which decays to Fe56 after radiative capture.  If you 
can capture the 3.7 MeV from the beta decay and transform it directly to electricity, you can get a very high efficiency.)

    If you get the idea that I looked at this pretty thoroughly decades ago, you are right.  My conclusion then was that it would be difficult to get the power density high enough to make an interesting energy source, but Miley seems to be doing that.

 

                                        Robert I. Eachus

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----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 8:41 PM
Subject: yellow water

Yellow hydrogen, maybe?  Or rosewater from "the yellow rose of Texas"?   :-)

OTOH, if something is chemicallly creating a Lemonite Fe compound.
Strange...thinking.

FJS


> Anybody got any ideas why Austin tap water (~1000 ppm Ca) turns yellowish
> after quite a bit of room temp hydrogen gas is bubbled through it?
>
>
>
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 10 12:02:19 1999
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Hi Fred,
Sounds like that might be a little too far away for me. I didn't even think 
of that. Thanks.  Pete



>From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Subject: Re: Free Dishes
>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:24:11 -0700
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Peter Aldo <prospector85 hotmail.com>
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Sent: Monday, August 09, 1999 4:59 PM
>Subject: Re: Free Dishes
>
>
>Hi Pete, long time no see.
>
>Is the focal point the 22,000 (+/-) miles to a geosynchronous satellite?
>:-)
>
>Regards,    Frederick
>
>
> > Could you use them for solar dishes if they were mirrored?
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
> > >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > >To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > >Subject: Free Dishes
> > >Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 18:47:22 -0400
> > >
> > >A friend is moving and has two, new (still crated), 6 ft. dia, 6
> > >GHz
> > >(spread-spectrum subband) feedhorn microwave dishes left over
> > >from a
> > >project that never got off the ground.  Gabriel brand.
> > >
> > >Yours for shipping from Atlanta, GA or pickup.
> > >
> > >Terry
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________
> > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
> >
> >
>


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 10 13:02:05 1999
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Subject: Re: Nuclear Model Based on String-Superstring Theory
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Hi Jones,

About a decade ago I started on a theory that tends to end up squaring with
String-Superstring theory that suggests that the fundamental
particles/quarks are length-only strings or string-circles that are in
simple harmonic motion oscillating in length (with wavelength L) or diameter
(with wavelength 2(pi)R).

Then  for a string circle "quark":   R = k*q^2/Rest Energy  (joules)

Thus the electron is only a circle with a radius of 2.81E-15 meters, or
possibly just an oscillating string with length 2(pi)R.

Since they have no width you can get a lot of them in a nucleus.  :-)

Thus for any nucleus there are 5A - 2Z of these, plus the external
(negative)electron:

For Antimatter nucleons, reverse the charges/handedness

        2A  "up"  or positive

        2A - Z "down" or negative

          A - Z  Antineutrinos

Total   5A - 2Z  "quarks"

For a Proton, 1H1;   5A - 2Z  =  (5*1) - 2  =   3  "quarks"

For a Neutron, oN1;  5A - 2Z =  (5*1) - 2* 0 =   5  "quarks",  essentially a
proton bound to an electron and an antineutrino, and that is what a neutron
decays to.

You can use up and down arrows to depict these, and a dashed arrow to depict
the spin  1/2  antineutrinos.

This "model" will work for any nuclear reaction/transmutation.

Regards,       Frederick




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 10 14:16:07 1999
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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Re: yellow water
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Scott,

Try it with:
	Distilled water
	Distilled with a little chlorine added.
	Tap water that has been left to sit for a couple of days to let
	the chlorine evaporate.
	Tap water run through a carbon filter.


> Anybody got any ideas why Austin tap water (~1000 ppm Ca) turns yellowish
> after quite a bit of room temp hydrogen gas is bubbled through it?

Bill
webriggs concentric.net
briggs XLNsystems.com

DISCLAIMER - Any hair brained flaky ideas presented are my own,
	     and not the hair brained flaky ideas of my employer.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 10 18:00:56 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Joule-Thomson
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This is pretty esoteric.

I have reviewed the literature on accurate measurement of the Joule-Thomson
coeffcient of gases.  In the discussion of possible error sources, nobody
ever mentions gas viscosity, which seems to me would result in heating of
the gas as it raced through the tiny restriction often employed in such
measurements.  There are two popular configurations for the restriction;
(1) a porous plug, which produces a low gas velocity through zillions of
tiny pores and (2) a fine needle valve, which produces a high velocity
through a single restriction.  One paper discusses the pros and cons of
each method briefly and even mentions a "jet kinetic energy" effect in
which some of the thermal energy of the gas is converted into kinetic
energy as it speeds up in the restriction thus cooling the gas....but there
is no mention of gas viscosity!  Maybe its just a totally negligible effect. 

Any thoughts?


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 10 20:34:01 1999
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Scott Little wrote:

<snip>

>(2) a fine needle valve, which produces a high velocity
> through a single restriction. 

<snip>

And possible vortex effects.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 10 21:10:16 1999
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: High Flux Neutron Generators
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>But, did you look at the data
>I was referring to?  For elastic scattering it reads:
>
>Elastic Scattering Cross Section
> 
>     at 0.0253 eV = 6.151 b 
>     Maxwell avg. at 0.0253 eV = 6.151 b 
>     at 14 MeV = 959.3 mb 
>     Fission spectrum avg. = 2.673 b 
>     g-factor = 1.1284 
> 
>Total Inelastic Cross Section
> 
>     at 14 MeV = 22.90 mb 
>     Fission spectrum avg. = 38.95 micro barn
> 
>Notice that the elastic scattering fission spectrum is about 70,000 times
>the inelastic scattering cross section, and over a third of the total for
>elastic scattering.  What I was saying was that I suspect that all the
>neutron emitting fissions are included in the elastic cross section instead
>of separating out those cases where the neutron is scattered elastically
>and the nucleus then "spontaneously" fissions.  You could separate those
>two cases, but it would be very difficult.  That would mean that the (very
>low) inelastic scattering data only included reactions which do not emit
>neutrons.

Since nuclear reaction cross sections vary with the energy of the reactants,
there is no single cross section for any reaction. Note the different elastic
cross sections at e.g. 0.0253 eV and 14 MeV.  "Fission spectrum average"
means the cross section value given is an average over the whole spectrum of
neutron energies produced by U235 fission. It does not mean that they are
cross sections for fission reactions.
===
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 10 21:42:48 1999
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Subject: Re: Burning Hydrogen at 35 Kev
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Robert I. Eachus" wrote:
  
>   I like to make a distinction between self targeting, where deuterium
>impacting on a surface with adsorbed deuterium produces neutrons, and
>stripping, where the reaction involves a high-Z target.  Not all targets
>produce stripping, and not all targets produce self-targeting.  But in
>either case, and in the Farnsworth Fusor, you have the same phenomena.  A
>pinch effect occurs, which focuses the deuterons into a narrow thread.  This
>thread can be fastened to a surface, or in a plasma.  

The Farnsworth Fusor and related devices use no magnetic field, so there is
no pinch. Also, there is no plasma "thread."

The idealized objective is to accelerate d+ ions from the surface of a
spherical outer boundary and focus them through a point in the center. The
ion density grows large at the center by spherical convergence, and thus the
fusion reaction rate is made large there. However, even with the high
density, most of the ions pass on through the center without colliding.
Therefore, the fusor must also provide a means to reflect the ions back to
the center. This is done in principle by a spherically symmetrical electric
field. Recall that the Coulomb scattering cross section is well over 10,000
times greater than the dd fusion cross section. Therefore, the reflection and
refocusing have to be extremely good in order to get fusions. One nice thing
about the Fusor concept is that most of the Coulomb scattering occurs near
the dense center, and since the scattering mainly changes the directions of
the colliding ions, they still fly back out almost radially and can be
(almost) perfectly refocussed, at least in principle. Alas, the calculated
achievable focussing can never be good enough to get very many fusion
collisions before the accumulated small scatterings cause the ions to become
distributed at low density near the periphery of the sphere. The Fusor fails
to make energy breakeven by enormous factors.

[snip]
>    In any case, you get lots of neutrons, but enough of them are from d
> --> p + n to make direct energy production unlikely.  However, if you can
>get several MeV from each of the neutrons produced, you are in fat city. 
>Nuclear fisson produces about 200 MeV per event, but even B10 + n --> He4 +
> Li7 could do the trick.  

Not even 200 extra MeV per Fusor neutron is enough to bring it to energy
breakeven. Miley is developing his "fusors" for niche applications that need
neutrons. It is actually hard to generate useful amounts of neutrons. In
these applications the great distance from energy breakeven is not a major
concern, but cost and reliability are. Fusors can do the job better than most
other common techniques.

BTW, d- ions (nucleus with two bound electrons) exist only in low temperature
environments, below a few eV. At higher temperatures the electrons get
knocked off by energetic collisions, and only d+ ions are present.


===
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 11 07:27:10 1999
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: yellow water
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>Anybody got any ideas why Austin tap water (~1000 ppm Ca) turns yellowish
>after quite a bit of room temp hydrogen gas is bubbled through it?

***{Hi Scott. My first thought was that you were getting H2 + Cl2 --> 2HCl,
because I recall that most of the "muriatic acid" (impure HCl) that I have
seen is yellow in color. However, I looked about in several books, until I
found a comment that "pure hydrochloric acid is colorless." Thus the color
of the muriatic acid I have seen must be due to the impurities. After a bit
more reflection, I thought of the following:

N2 + 3H2 --> 2NH3

A bit of research, however, revealed that pure ammonia is also colorless.
Thus I began thinking about secondary reactions, and I came up with:

4NH3 + 5O2 --> 6H2O + 4NO

Next, we have:

2NO + O2 --> 2NO2

Since NO2 is a brownish-red gas, my guess was that a small amount of it
dissolved in water would turn the water yellow. Looking about further, I
discovered that this conjecture is correct. Here is the way it happens:

2NO2 <--> N2O4

The N2O4 (nitrogen tetroxide) is yellow in color.

Of course, one might argue that the NO2 would instead yield:

3NO2 + H2O --> 2HNO3 + NO

Not to worry, because the HNO3 (nitric acid) is very unstable, and
decomposes as follows:

4HNO3 --> 2H2O + 4NO2 + O2

Result: you might get enough N2O4 in your water to give it a yellowish
color, after you bubble H2 through it for awhile. The above is just
guesswork, of course, due to the stew of reactions that are possible in tap
water. Suggested test: thoroughly aerate some distilled water, and then
bubble hydrogen through for a long time. If you get a yellowish color under
those conditions, then the presence of nitrogen tetroxide is about the only
possibility.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 11 08:50:57 1999
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Scott,

I suggest your water is high in iron.  The hydrogen is slowly reducing the
organic ferric iron to the  ferrous ion which is yellow.  If this is the
case, you should think seriously about drinking bottled water.

Ed Storms

> Anybody got any ideas why Austin tap water (~1000 ppm Ca) turns yellowish
> after quite a bit of room temp hydrogen gas is bubbled through it?
>
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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At 05:00 PM 8/10/1999 -0400, Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 wrote:
 
>> Anybody got any ideas why Austin tap water (~1000 ppm Ca) turns yellowish
>> after quite a bit of room temp hydrogen gas is bubbled through it?
 
    My guess would be iron in the water.  It may be some other metal, but hydrogen will cause soluble iron salts to move toward oxides.  (Another way of looking at it is:  FeCO3 + H2 --> H2O + Fe + CO2, Fe + 2 H2O --> FeO2 + 2 H2.  If this seems like gett
ing something for nothing, you are, sort of.  You need other reactions to complete the cycle, usually involving iron sulfate and carbonate rock.)

    So see what happens with a magnet. 

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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Edmund Storms wrote:

> Scott,
>
> I suggest your water is high in iron.  The hydrogen is slowly reducing the
> organic ferric iron to the  ferrous ion which is yellow.  If this is the
> case, you should think seriously about drinking bottled water.
>
> Ed Storms

A few more ideas.  You can test for iron by first making the solution slightly
acid with HCl and then adding a few drops of a dilute solution of K4Fe(CN)6 to
the yellow water.  If a blue precipitate  forms, iron is present.  Soluble
iron is not magnetic so using a magnet will do no good.

Ed

>
> > Anybody got any ideas why Austin tap water (~1000 ppm Ca) turns yellowish
> > after quite a bit of room temp hydrogen gas is bubbled through it?
> >
> > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
> > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 11 12:07:52 1999
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At 01:01 PM 8/11/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:

>> I suggest your water is high in iron.  The hydrogen is slowly reducing the
>> organic ferric iron to the  ferrous ion which is yellow.  If this is the
>> case, you should think seriously about drinking bottled water.
>>
>> Ed Storms
>
>A few more ideas.  You can test for iron by first making the solution
slightly
>acid with HCl and then adding a few drops of a dilute solution of
K4Fe(CN)6 to
>the yellow water.  If a blue precipitate  forms, iron is present.  Soluble
>iron is not magnetic so using a magnet will do no good.
>
>Ed
>
>>
>> > Anybody got any ideas why Austin tap water (~1000 ppm Ca) turns yellowish
>> > after quite a bit of room temp hydrogen gas is bubbled through it?


  If you really think it is iron (e.g. Fe++), try the o-phenanthroline 
assay.  The material which binds iron.  A two wavelength optical
spectroscopic 
measurement (easily done) yields both the quantity of ferrous iron, 
and total iron.

   Mitchell Swartz


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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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Subject: IRON and Why bottled water.??  Iron bad for you?!Re: yellow water
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	Dear Ed,

	Why do you council iron free water or bottled water?

	My understanding is that iron is not bad for you.

			John

On Wed, 11 Aug 1999, Edmund Storms wrote:

> 
> 
> Edmund Storms wrote:
> 
> > Scott,
> >
> > I suggest your water is high in iron.  The hydrogen is slowly reducing the
> > organic ferric iron to the  ferrous ion which is yellow.  If this is the
> > case, you should think seriously about drinking bottled water.
> >
> > Ed Storms
> 
> A few more ideas.  You can test for iron by first making the solution slightly
> acid with HCl and then adding a few drops of a dilute solution of K4Fe(CN)6 to
> the yellow water.  If a blue precipitate  forms, iron is present.  Soluble
> iron is not magnetic so using a magnet will do no good.
> 
> Ed
> 
> >
> > > Anybody got any ideas why Austin tap water (~1000 ppm Ca) turns yellowish
> > > after quite a bit of room temp hydrogen gas is bubbled through it?
> > >
> > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
> > > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> > > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 11 13:39:08 1999
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From: "Peter Nielsen" <nielsenp lis.net.au>
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Subject: Re: plasma vortexes
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 07:04:28 +1000
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-----Original Message-----
From: thomas Malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Tuesday, 10 August, 1999 5:56
Subject: plasma vortexes


>It would seem to me that a plasma vortex in a box would make an
>excellent energy source if we can contain it,  It has also occured to me
>that containment might prove to be a problem, particularly if we are
>dealing with the force that makes the sun shine
>

New Zealand researcher Jan Pajak, has claimed to do just this, and produced
a few papers about it. It was a plexiglas box with an arrangment of angled
HV needles to direct the vortex. A resonance effect was involved.

Unfortunately, I do not have a current address for him.

Peter Nielsen

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 11 14:43:12 1999
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Pajak was Polish.  A website about his work exists in Polish at
http://www.hkpm.org.pl/

You can download a great deal on this site with Adobe Acrobat and it may
include one or more drawings as well as photographs of his energy storage
box.  One was constructed in Poland some years ago but I never heard if it
performed as anticipated.

Pajak published a book about his very interesting Magnocraft ideas in
English while he was living in New Zealand.  I assume this is the same
material in Polish.

Unfortunately, our copy of the book is probably buried in boxes of inactive
old files and would take more time to retrieve than anyone here can spare.

Mark Goldes
__________________________________________________
FREE Email for ALL! Sign up at http://www.mail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 11 16:20:38 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Subject: Mengoli, et al.
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Dieter,

Are you subscribed to Vortex-L?  (I ccd you in case you aren't.)

The paper you mentioned last month and added to your bibliography, by 
Mengoli, et al., "Anomalous heat effects correlated with electrochemical 
hydriding of nickel," in NUOVO CIMENTO, Vol. 20 D, No. 3 (March 1998), pp. 
331-352, sure does show some anomalous heat effects.

Fig. 12, for example (on p. 347), for a run with K2CO3, shows excess power 
well after the current was cut off.  

The authors call their excess power Pex, defined as the excess over the 
electric power entering the cell, after taking the 1.48 V correction for the 
power used to dissociate H2O:  see their definitions on p. 341.  But even 
defining Pex this way, they still claim (p. 351) Pex greater than the total 
power entering the cell, i.e., greater than raw I*V, which they call PsubE in 
their graphs.

Fig. 12 covers 450 minutes.  The power was cut off at 225 minutes, but the 
excess heat continued for the remaining 225 minutes.  From minute 300 to 
minute 450, the excess power was about 0.3 W, lower than the peak of 0.7 W to 
0.8 W when the current was on, but still definitely greater than zero.

I can't recall anyone else claiming excess power from the Ni/H2O/K2CO3 system 
after the power was shut off, can you?  I'm fairly sure that Mills never did.

Re the results of the one sodium carbonate run by Mengoli, et al.  They ran 
sodium carbonate for 15,000 minutes (15 thousand minutes, that's more than 
ten days).  See Fig. 15 on p. 349.  During the first 300 minutes (Fig. 14 on 
p. 348), they didn't get any excess power.  After the first 300 minutes, they 
observed steadily increasing excess power.  It climbed to about 0.4 W at 
about 1,500 minutes and to about 0.6 W at about 7,000 minutes.  The excess 
power then dropped slightly, to somewhat over 0.5 W.

It looks as if they turned the power off at about 13,000 minutes, but the 
excess power continued.  Indeed, it even went up after the power went off, to 
more than 0.6 W, that is, to a level higher than when the power was on.  If 
one is to believe Mengoli, et al., (I don't), then sodium carbonate must be a 
dynamite electrolyte. 

Am I reading these graphs correctly?  What do you make of them?

A question for Fred Sparber:  what do you make of the above claims?

A couple of questions for Mitchell Swartz, who follows the literature more 
closely than most and has done lots of successful experiments himself:  have 
you read Mengoli, et al., 1998?  If so, what do you make of the paper?

Has anyone else on Vortex-L read this paper?

Tom Stolper

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Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:35:01 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: Re: IRON and Why bottled water.??  Iron bad for you?!Re: yellow water
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990811154613.13822B-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
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John Schnurer wrote:

>         Dear Ed,
>
>         Why do you council iron free water or bottled water?
>
>         My understanding is that iron is not bad for you.
>
>                         John

Organic bound iron is necessary in limited quantity -  less for men than women.
However, too much inorganic iron has been found to produce some unpleasant health
effects.  Since a person drinks a large amount of water, only a small amount of
iron in the water can be too much.  It is better to get the iron in the organic
form which the body can more easily reject if too much is ingested.  Hope this
answers your question.

Ed

Ed Storms

>
>
> On Wed, 11 Aug 1999, Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Edmund Storms wrote:
> >
> > > Scott,
> > >
> > > I suggest your water is high in iron.  The hydrogen is slowly reducing the
> > > organic ferric iron to the  ferrous ion which is yellow.  If this is the
> > > case, you should think seriously about drinking bottled water.
> > >
> > > Ed Storms
> >
> > A few more ideas.  You can test for iron by first making the solution slightly
> > acid with HCl and then adding a few drops of a dilute solution of K4Fe(CN)6 to
> > the yellow water.  If a blue precipitate  forms, iron is present.  Soluble
> > iron is not magnetic so using a magnet will do no good.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > >
> > > > Anybody got any ideas why Austin tap water (~1000 ppm Ca) turns yellowish
> > > > after quite a bit of room temp hydrogen gas is bubbled through it?
> > > >
> > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
> > > > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> > > > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
> >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 11 17:42:41 1999
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: A Little Iron Goes a Long Way
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:40:47 -0400
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Vo,

Iron is an essential component of hemoglobin and so necessary for human
life. It can be toxic elsewhere in the body. Human metabolism is extremely
efficient in scavenging iron from dead red blood cells and using it in
replacement cells. Normal human small intestines have an effective barrier
against iron from food to keep excess iron out of the body.

One of the most common genetic defects in humans interferes with this
barrier, allowing excess iron to be absorbed from food and water. The body
cannot excrete it. Iron accumulates to toxic levels with a variety of
symptoms. The clinical condition is called hemochromatosis. It is  only now
getting attention and is frequently misdiagnosed.

The first clue is high levels of serum iron in standard blood tests. These
should be followed up by a specific set of tests for iron overload, and it
these indicators are also high, the next step is genetic screening for two
known genetic defects (there may be more). If these match in the two
chromosomes, a person is at high risk for the hemochromatosis. A double
match is bad news.

Fortunately, there is a safe way of handling the conditions, which is
phlebotomy, or blood-letting. This removes iron from the body. In replacing
lost blood, the body has to go after any iron it can find, removing excess
from tissues where it may have accumulated. Unfortunately, blood banks,
including the Red Cross, will not accept donation of blood for any medical
reason, even though the blood is safe.

The full story can be found by a Web search on "hemochromatosis".

I'm up on this stuff because I carry the genetic markers -- not matched, a
'heterozygote' -- and tend toward excessive iron. It's worth checking out.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 11 18:07:36 1999
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: A Little Iron Goes a Long Way
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 Update on one of my favorite branches of chemistry.


At 08:40 PM 8/11/99 -0400, Mike Carrell wrote:
>Iron is an essential component of hemoglobin and so necessary for human
>life. It can be toxic elsewhere in the body. Human metabolism is extremely
>efficient in scavenging iron from dead red blood cells and using it in
>replacement cells. Normal human small intestines have an effective barrier
>against iron from food to keep excess iron out of the body.

   Correct.  Like Au, Al, Be, Mn, and Zn,    Fe is absorbed
less than 5%.

  ==============================================

>One of the most common genetic defects in humans interferes with this
>barrier, allowing excess iron to be absorbed from food and water. The body
>cannot excrete it. Iron accumulates to toxic levels with a variety of
>symptoms. The clinical condition is called hemochromatosis. It is  only now
>getting attention and is frequently misdiagnosed.

   Correct.  Up to one child dies a week in the US from unneeded
iron overdose from eager parents.  The unfortunate infants' skin 
turns a pleasant orange color, and the children love the alcohol
used to dissolve the iron.  Except for the telltale blue-black 
stools and abdominal constipation, it is often missed.

  Thanks, Mike.

  ==============================================


   Dr. Storms is wrong about 
"Organic bound iron is necessary in limited quantity 
  -  less for men than women."
  This is not true.  Iron ions are solvated, and in fact
organic bound iron (eg. spinach)is NOT absorbed well
(irrespective of Popeye).   In the body, it is organically
bound to transferrin, etc. which are far beyond
the scope of this post.


  Dr Storms is also wrong about "Soluble
iron is not magnetic .... "
This is nonsense.  The d-orbital chemistry
of iron in solution is well known 
(eg. an edition of Cotton, Advanced Inorganic
Chemistry), and the LS or JJ coupling that 
Group VIII atoms undergo is also well known,
as are Hunds rules.
 That is why the solutions are colored.

 Iron atoms obviously do have a magnetic moment
in solution.  Perhaps Edmund means that there 
may be not net coupling because the hydrogen bonding 
is incredibly large compared to kT, and so there
is no ferromagnetics (except in ferrofluids, of course).

    Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 11 19:04:23 1999
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Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:01:09 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Yellow Water
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[snip]

>
>
>  Dr Storms is also wrong about "Soluble
>iron is not magnetic .... "
>This is nonsense.  The d-orbital chemistry
>of iron in solution is well known
>(eg. an edition of Cotton, Advanced Inorganic
>Chemistry), and the LS or JJ coupling that
>Group VIII atoms undergo is also well known,
>as are Hunds rules.
> That is why the solutions are colored.

***{Very interesting. Are you saying that if Scott sticks a magnet in his
solution, the yellowish coloration will move toward it, so that a visible
effect will be created? (Assuming, of course, that an iron compound is the
cause.) Also, what specific iron compound might be present in tap water,
which would give the yellow coloration reported by Scott, and would be
detectible in this manner? --Mitchell Jones}***

>
> Iron atoms obviously do have a magnetic moment
>in solution.  Perhaps Edmund means that there
>may be not net coupling because the hydrogen bonding
>is incredibly large compared to kT, and so there
>is no ferromagnetics (except in ferrofluids, of course).
>
>    Mitchell Swartz

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 11 19:15:04 1999
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Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:18:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: SEE ?  SEE ?!  SEE !!!!?!!!!
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	See !!!

	One small simple posted question from ME about iron and LOOK
at all the COOL stuff....
	NOW:  Isn't this MUCH better than spitting and moaning about who
said what about some trivial semantic!

	FUN!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 11 19:18:08 1999
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Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:21:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: "Dynamic Systems, Inc." <dsi cheta.net>,
        John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>,
        Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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	Is there any type of cogent discussion list about this kind of
stuff... and "vortex equivalent" for garvity modification and OBP,
	Odd-Ball Propulsion

	????

	I

Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 02:54:50 -0800
Resent-From: vortexC-L eskimo.com


At last Charles Yost's ELECTRIC SPACECRAFT JOURNAL has a website! Yay!

  URL:http://www.cheta.net/dsi/esj

  e-mail address: dsi cheta.net


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 12 03:18:17 1999
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Subject: final offer - OOP [Optimal Operating Point] Analysis
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  Dear Vorts:

Because of the feedback previously, and the general interest,
the near final draft manuscript (version 14) "FURTHER CONFIRMATION
OF OPTIMAL OPERATING POINT BEHAVIOR", is available 
to vorts who have an interest in cold fusion
and WHY there was irreproducibility, and/or how analysis of
the electrical input power phase space in which these systems 
are driven may help some of these systems which use active 
materials, and sufficient loading. 

  My favorite quote about the paper is by our Horace Heffner,
who has been advancing his resonance model, perhaps supported by
the optimal operating (OOP) points.
"This is a really amazing paper!  It is one case where data stew
is an epicurean delight, and an ingenious way to blend numbers 
not obtained for analysis in this manner.  It may help show the 
way to improving cell operation and improving replication success 
rates, but also breaks new ground in showing commonality between 
the experiments addressed."

  If any vort is interested, please send email back with this
header, and the URL (or a zip file) will be returned
where the assembled page is up for comments, feedback, 
criticism, suggestions prior to publication.

      Mitchell Swartz


   

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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: final offer - OOP [Optimal Operating Point] Analysis
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 07:01:51 -0400
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  If any vort is interested, please send email back with this
>header, and the URL (or a zip file) will be returned
>where the assembled page is up for comments, feedback, 
>criticism, suggestions prior to publication.
>
>      Mitchell Swartz

Hi Mitch,

I'm still interested in seeing it.  Sorry I haven't been able to contribute
more to the discussion, but I've had some things to do, and this sort of
thing really takes time for me to analyse carefully enough to make any
comment of significance.  The only thing that I would comment on is that
there really is no need to justify a study like this to anyone.  This sort
of analysis and computer modeling is routine these days in the medical field
for determining proper dosages of drugs and painkillers that have a narrow
window of efficacy.  The computer models outperform most humans.  There is
already enough data in the CF literature to apply to this method, and it
should be obvious to anyone that this approach will be very useful.  Thanks
for bringing Dieter into the discussion, as well.  I think his command of
the English language, and his ability to explain things are quite a bit
better than mine.  His knowledge of Science certainly is, but don't tell him
I said that:)

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 12 04:03:40 1999
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Subject: Elecromotive Force Series -- Re: yellow water
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August 12, 1999

Vortex,

Back in the fifties, I was introduced to the electromotive force series in high
school chemistry. It remained in my mind throiugh the years. So when Ed wrote:

> I suggest your water is high in iron.  The hydrogen is slowly reducing the
> organic ferric iron to the  ferrous ion which is yellow.  If this is the
> case, ------

This rang a bell. I finally got around to checking on the suggestion of
hydrogen reducing ferric (F+++) to (Fe++). According to a table of elements, Fe
to Fe++ and Fe to Fe+++ listing of electrode potentials are above H to H+,
ferrous being much higher than ferric, meaning hydrogen cannot reduce ferric to
ferrous.Taking H to H+ as zero, Fe to Fe++ is 0.441 and Fe to Fe+++ is 0.045.
I notice the more recent chemistry reference books only mention the series but
do not list them. I found the series in a CRC 1936-1937 handbook which was
handy.

-AK-

Scott earlier wrote:

> > Anybody got any ideas why Austin tap water (~1000 ppm Ca) turns yellowish
> > after quite a bit of room temp hydrogen gas is bubbled through it?
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 12 07:19:03 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: JT coeff in Pd/H system
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Mainly for Ed,

You mentioned recently regarding metal hydrides that "no pressure exists
within the material except in voids where gas exists".  That raises an
interesting question pertaining to my efforts to detect excess heat from
the passage of H gas through Pd metal (e.g.
http://www.eden.com/~little/purify/report.html).

This experiment consists of a heated Pd membrane across which a large
pressure drop occurs (i.e. about 10 atm).  H2 gas flows thru the Pd
membrane at a rate more-or-less proportional to the pressure drop.

I have a new version of this experiment going in which I now have
sufficient sensitivity to detect the Joule-Thomson effect which, in the
case of hydrogen, should result in a warming of the gas as it undergoes the
pressure drop.  At 400C, the typical temperature, the JT coeff for hydrogen
gas is about -.057 K/atm (the minus sign indicates that the gas warms
rather than cooling which is the usual JT effect).

The question is:  where in this experiment does the pressure drop occur?
At the high-pressure surface of the Pd?  At the low pressure surface?  Your
comment quoted above makes me think the pressure drop does not occur within
the Pd. More importantly, is it possible that, despite the pressure drop,
the Joule-Thomson effect would not even occur in this experiment?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 12 07:33:42 1999
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From: "Thomas N. Claytor" <claytor lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: final offer - OOP [Optimal Operating Point] Analysis
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Mitch,
Send it on.
Tom

At 06:08 AM 8/12/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>  Dear Vorts:
>
>Because of the feedback previously, and the general interest,
>the near final draft manuscript (version 14) "FURTHER CONFIRMATION
>OF OPTIMAL OPERATING POINT BEHAVIOR", is available 
>to vorts who have an interest in cold fusion
>and WHY there was irreproducibility, and/or how analysis of
>the electrical input power phase space in which these systems 
>are driven may help some of these systems which use active 
>materials, and sufficient loading. 
>
>  My favorite quote about the paper is by our Horace Heffner,
>who has been advancing his resonance model, perhaps supported by
>the optimal operating (OOP) points.
>"This is a really amazing paper!  It is one case where data stew
>is an epicurean delight, and an ingenious way to blend numbers 
>not obtained for analysis in this manner.  It may help show the 
>way to improving cell operation and improving replication success 
>rates, but also breaks new ground in showing commonality between 
>the experiments addressed."
>
>  If any vort is interested, please send email back with this
>header, and the URL (or a zip file) will be returned
>where the assembled page is up for comments, feedback, 
>criticism, suggestions prior to publication.
>
>      Mitchell Swartz
>
>
>   
> 
http://www.nde.lanl.gov/staff/claytor/claytor.htm
Thomas N. Claytor	Claytor lanl.gov
Los Alamos National Laboratory
ESA-MT, MS C914
Los Alamos NM, 87545
505-667-6216 voice
505-665-7176 fax

Shipping Address:
Thomas N. Claytor
Los Alamos National Lab
Receiving/SM 30
Bikini Atoll Rd
Los Alamos NM 87545
Attention: Drop Point 01S



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Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>
>    Dr. Storms is wrong about
> "Organic bound iron is necessary in limited quantity
>   -  less for men than women."
>   This is not true.  Iron ions are solvated, and in fact
> organic bound iron (eg. spinach)is NOT absorbed well
> (irrespective of Popeye).   In the body, it is organically
> bound to transferrin, etc. which are far beyond
> the scope of this post.

Both statements are true in spite of Mitchell's opinions.  As Mike Carrell
pointed out so well, iron is needed in limited quantity and the body has ways
to limit the amount of organic iron which is absorbed.  However, iron ions,
i.e. inorganic iron, is more easily able to pass through the barrier and be
absorbed.  This can create a risk or iron overload if too much inorganic iron
is present in the environment.

>
>   Dr Storms is also wrong about "Soluble
> iron is not magnetic .... "
> This is nonsense.  The d-orbital chemistry
> of iron in solution is well known
> (eg. an edition of Cotton, Advanced Inorganic
> Chemistry), and the LS or JJ coupling that
> Group VIII atoms undergo is also well known,
> as are Hunds rules.
>  That is why the solutions are colored.

The statement about magnetism was made in the context of the dissolved iron
being ferromagnetic so that a magnetic could be used to detect the iron.  The
ions are not ferromagnetic. Of course the ions retain weak magnetic
properties.  However, this is not why they produce a yellow solution.

>
>  Iron atoms obviously do have a magnetic moment
> in solution.  Perhaps Edmund means that there
> may be not net coupling because the hydrogen bonding
> is incredibly large compared to kT, and so there
> is no ferromagnetics (except in ferrofluids, of course).

Thanks for finally reaching the correct conclusion, Mitchell.


Ed Storms

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 12 08:27:22 1999
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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:23:58 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Elecromotive Force Series -- Re: yellow water
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>August 12, 1999
>
>Vortex,
>
>Back in the fifties, I was introduced to the electromotive force series in
>high
>school chemistry. It remained in my mind throiugh the years. So when Ed wrote:
>
>> I suggest your water is high in iron.  The hydrogen is slowly reducing the
>> organic ferric iron to the  ferrous ion which is yellow.  If this is the
>> case, ------
>
>This rang a bell. I finally got around to checking on the suggestion of
>hydrogen reducing ferric (F+++) to (Fe++). According to a table of
>elements, Fe
>to Fe++ and Fe to Fe+++ listing of electrode potentials are above H to H+,
>ferrous being much higher than ferric, meaning hydrogen cannot reduce
>ferric to
>ferrous.Taking H to H+ as zero, Fe to Fe++ is 0.441 and Fe to Fe+++ is 0.045.
>I notice the more recent chemistry reference books only mention the series but
>do not list them. I found the series in a CRC 1936-1937 handbook which was
>handy.
>
>-AK-

***{To check out your analysis, I opened my *Handbook of Chemistry and
Physics*, 40th ed., to the section entitled "Oxidation Potentials of the
Elements," and found the following:

(1) Fe --> Fe++ + 2e- requires .44 volts more than H --> H+ + 1e-

I take the above to mean that an anode potential that will strip an
electron away from H (in H2) is insufficient to strip electrons away from
Fe (in Fe2). The implication would seem to be that H+ ions in solution will
be unable to convert Fe to Fe++ (oxidation) by stripping away electrons,
while Fe++ will strip electrons away from H2. That is: Fe++ + 2H -->  Fe +
2H+, which means ferrous iron will be reduced in the presence of H2.

(2) Fe++ --> Fe+++ + 1e- requires .771 volts less than H --> H+ + 1e-

The above suggests to me that a potential capable of stripping an electron
away from H (in H2) will be *more than adequate* to strip an electron away
from an Fe++ ion, converting it to Fe+++. The implication: H+ ions in
solution will be able to convert  Fe++ to Fe+++ (oxidation) by stripping
away electrons, while Fe+++ will *not* be able to strip electrons away from
H2. Thus the reaction Fe+++ + H --> Fe++ + H+ does not take place--which
means ferric iron is not reduced to ferrous in the presence of hydrogen.

It therefore appears that your conclusion is correct. Thanks for the
chemistry lesson. (I had often flipped past this section of my *Handbook*
without appreciating its significance, but no more!)

--Mitchell Jones}***


>
>Scott earlier wrote:
>
>> > Anybody got any ideas why Austin tap water (~1000 ppm Ca) turns yellowish
>> > after quite a bit of room temp hydrogen gas is bubbled through it?
>>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 12 08:55:23 1999
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Subject: Re: A Little Iron Goes a Long Way
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At 09:23 AM 8/12/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:
>
>
>Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>
>>
>>    Dr. Storms is wrong about
>> "Organic bound iron is necessary in limited quantity
>>   -  less for men than women."
>>   This is not true.  Iron ions are solvated, and in fact
>> organic bound iron (eg. spinach)is NOT absorbed well
>> (irrespective of Popeye).   In the body, it is organically
>> bound to transferrin, etc. which are far beyond
>> the scope of this post.
>
>Both statements are true in spite of Mitchell's opinions.  As Mike Carrell
>pointed out so well, iron is needed in limited quantity and the body has ways
>to limit the amount of organic iron which is absorbed.  However, iron ions,
>i.e. inorganic iron, is more easily able to pass through the barrier and be
>absorbed.  This can create a risk or iron overload if too much inorganic iron
>is present in the environment.


   Wrong, Ed.   Organic bound iron is not well absorbed.
  Look up the effect of either phytates or oxylates upon
iron absorption.  It is common fable that led to Popeye fables
regarding spinach.

   Therefore your correction about iron ions is correct
this time around.


  ===========================================


>>   Dr Storms is also wrong about "Soluble
>> iron is not magnetic .... "
>> This is nonsense.  The d-orbital chemistry
>> of iron in solution is well known
>> (eg. an edition of Cotton, Advanced Inorganic
>> Chemistry), and the LS or JJ coupling that
>> Group VIII atoms undergo is also well known,
>> as are Hunds rules.
>>  That is why the solutions are colored.
>
>The statement about magnetism was made in the context of the dissolved iron
>being ferromagnetic so that a magnetic could be used to detect the iron.  The
>ions are not ferromagnetic. Of course the ions retain weak magnetic
>properties.  However, this is not why they produce a yellow solution.


  Sorry, Ed, but despite the backpedal, they are magnetic.
 There is diamagnetism, ferro, ferri, and antiferromagnetism, 
and these materials have well known magnetic properties.
Their orbitals (iron in particular) involve electronic and 
magnetic issues.  The iron in porphyrins, held in organics
such as you mentioned, more specifically by Mike Carrell,
include hemoproteins such as hemo- and myoglobin 
where the iron is split between eg and t2g (if memory serves) 
orbitals which results from the crystal field splitting.  

  To say these are not magnetic is wrong.  And the splitting
absolutely creates the colors which is why oxyhemoglobin
is orange, deoxyhemoglobin in red-purple, and methemoglobin
(with the iron in the d5-electronic state) is brown.
The spectroscopic differences allow every hospital to simply
measure the hemoglobin moeities.

   Any serious text, as stated, on advanced inorganic
chemistry, should set your straight.  If you want books
refs. on the hemoglobin, let me know.

   Have a good day.
     Mitchell Swartz



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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: JT coeff in Pd/H system
Resent-Message-ID: <"AjGG1.0.xC5.bHlit" mx1>
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>Mainly for Ed,
>
>You mentioned recently regarding metal hydrides that "no pressure exists
>within the material except in voids where gas exists".  That raises an
>interesting question pertaining to my efforts to detect excess heat from
>the passage of H gas through Pd metal (e.g.
>http://www.eden.com/~little/purify/report.html).
>
>This experiment consists of a heated Pd membrane across which a large
>pressure drop occurs (i.e. about 10 atm).  H2 gas flows thru the Pd
>membrane at a rate more-or-less proportional to the pressure drop.
>
>I have a new version of this experiment going in which I now have
>sufficient sensitivity to detect the Joule-Thomson effect which, in the
>case of hydrogen, should result in a warming of the gas as it undergoes the
>pressure drop.  At 400C, the typical temperature, the JT coeff for hydrogen
>gas is about -.057 K/atm (the minus sign indicates that the gas warms
>rather than cooling which is the usual JT effect).
>
>The question is:  where in this experiment does the pressure drop occur?
>At the high-pressure surface of the Pd?  At the low pressure surface?  Your
>comment quoted above makes me think the pressure drop does not occur within
>the Pd. More importantly, is it possible that, despite the pressure drop,
>the Joule-Thomson effect would not even occur in this experiment?

***{Logic says the pressure drop must be spread evenly within the Pd. To
see why, assume you have +5 atm on the left side of the Pd, and -5 atm on
the right side. If the pressure drops to -5 atm as soon as the left surface
is penetrated, then it would have to be -5 atm all the way across to the
right surface, and -5 to the right of the membrane. Result: with no
pressure gradient within the membrane, there would be no flow of hydrogen
across it. Since flow occurs, we know that the entire pressure drop cannot
occur across the left surface. Similarly, we know that the entire drop
cannot occur across the right surface: if it did, the pressure within the
membrane would be +5 atm throughout, and, again, with no pressure gradient,
there would be no flow. Conclusion: since there is continuous flow across
the membrane, there must be a continuous pressure drop across it as well.
(In fact, if there were a zone anywhere across the flow loop where there
was no pressure gradient, then there would be no flow through the loop.)
--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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Scott Little wrote:

> Mainly for Ed,
>
> You mentioned recently regarding metal hydrides that "no pressure exists
> within the material except in voids where gas exists".  That raises an
> interesting question pertaining to my efforts to detect excess heat from
> the passage of H gas through Pd metal (e.g.
> http://www.eden.com/~little/purify/report.html).
>
> This experiment consists of a heated Pd membrane across which a large
> pressure drop occurs (i.e. about 10 atm).  H2 gas flows thru the Pd
> membrane at a rate more-or-less proportional to the pressure drop.
>
> I have a new version of this experiment going in which I now have
> sufficient sensitivity to detect the Joule-Thomson effect which, in the
> case of hydrogen, should result in a warming of the gas as it undergoes the
> pressure drop.  At 400C, the typical temperature, the JT coeff for hydrogen
> gas is about -.057 K/atm (the minus sign indicates that the gas warms
> rather than cooling which is the usual JT effect).
>
> The question is:  where in this experiment does the pressure drop occur?
> At the high-pressure surface of the Pd?  At the low pressure surface?  Your
> comment quoted above makes me think the pressure drop does not occur within
> the Pd. More importantly, is it possible that, despite the pressure drop,
> the Joule-Thomson effect would not even occur in this experiment?

An interesting question, Scott.  The JT effect occurs because interaction
between molecules of gas changes as its pressure is changed, thereby changing
the energy of the system.  This energy is characteristic of a material, in
this case H2, when it is in the gas phase.  When H2 reacts with Pd and creases
to be a gas, the chemical energy of Pd-H interaction is released along with
any energy associated with interaction between the H2 molecules at the
reacting pressure.  After diffusing through the Pd, the H ions recombine as
gas which is released at a lower pressure.  During this release, the chemical
energy is reclaimed along with any interaction energy required by the gas at
the exit pressure.  Thus, the Pd sheet will be heated by the JT effect in the
same manner as would result if the gas passed through an orifice.  Because
this energy is very small, you will have difficulty  seeing an effect.

Regards,
Ed Storms

>
>
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >August 12, 1999
> >
> >Vortex,
> >
> >Back in the fifties, I was introduced to the electromotive force series in
> >high
> >school chemistry. It remained in my mind throiugh the years. So when Ed wrote:
> >
> >> I suggest your water is high in iron.  The hydrogen is slowly reducing the
> >> organic ferric iron to the  ferrous ion which is yellow.  If this is the
> >> case, ------
> >
> >This rang a bell. I finally got around to checking on the suggestion of
> >hydrogen reducing ferric (F+++) to (Fe++). According to a table of
> >elements, Fe
> >to Fe++ and Fe to Fe+++ listing of electrode potentials are above H to H+,
> >ferrous being much higher than ferric, meaning hydrogen cannot reduce
> >ferric to
> >ferrous.Taking H to H+ as zero, Fe to Fe++ is 0.441 and Fe to Fe+++ is 0.045.
> >I notice the more recent chemistry reference books only mention the series but
> >do not list them. I found the series in a CRC 1936-1937 handbook which was
> >handy.
> >
> >-AK-
>
> ***{To check out your analysis, I opened my *Handbook of Chemistry and
> Physics*, 40th ed., to the section entitled "Oxidation Potentials of the
> Elements," and found the following:
>
> (1) Fe --> Fe++ + 2e- requires .44 volts more than H --> H+ + 1e-
>
> I take the above to mean that an anode potential that will strip an
> electron away from H (in H2) is insufficient to strip electrons away from
> Fe (in Fe2). The implication would seem to be that H+ ions in solution will
> be unable to convert Fe to Fe++ (oxidation) by stripping away electrons,
> while Fe++ will strip electrons away from H2. That is: Fe++ + 2H -->  Fe +
> 2H+, which means ferrous iron will be reduced in the presence of H2.
>
> (2) Fe++ --> Fe+++ + 1e- requires .771 volts less than H --> H+ + 1e-
>
> The above suggests to me that a potential capable of stripping an electron
> away from H (in H2) will be *more than adequate* to strip an electron away
> from an Fe++ ion, converting it to Fe+++. The implication: H+ ions in
> solution will be able to convert  Fe++ to Fe+++ (oxidation) by stripping
> away electrons, while Fe+++ will *not* be able to strip electrons away from
> H2. Thus the reaction Fe+++ + H --> Fe++ + H+ does not take place--which
> means ferric iron is not reduced to ferrous in the presence of hydrogen.
>
> It therefore appears that your conclusion is correct. Thanks for the
> chemistry lesson. (I had often flipped past this section of my *Handbook*
> without appreciating its significance, but no more!)
>
> --Mitchell Jones}***

This is an example if a little knowledge being dangerous.

The Electromotive Series gives the hypothetical EMF of a cell in which the
components are in their standard states.  This means the gases are at 1 atm and
the ions are at a 1 molar concentration. The reaction H2(1atm) =2H+ + 2e is taken
as having an EMF of 0.000 as an arbitrary reference value.
The reaction Fe++ =Fe+++ + e has a value of -0.7477.  Thus, the reaction
H2 + 2Fe+++ = 2H+ + 2Fe++
would have a voltage of +0.7477 if the H2 were at 1 atm and the ions were at 1
molar.

For other concentrations, the equation  E = Eo -(RT/nF) ln (ap/ar),  where ap and
ar are the activities of the products and reactants, respectively and Eo is the
standard potential as noted above. Each activity is raised to the power of its
coefficient in the equilibrium equation.

The equilibrium constant for the above reaction can be obtained from

Eo = RT/nF ln K  where K = ((H+)^2 * (Fe++)^2)/(PH2) * (Fe+++)^2).

Substituting values we get:  .7477 = .05915/2 ln K  or  K = 10^(29.04)  or K =
1.09 * 10^29

As you can see, when H2 at 1 atm is in equilibrium with a mixture of Fe++ and
Fe+++. the concentration of Fe++ will be much higher than that of Fe+++.
Therefore, Fe+++ will be reduced to Fe++ as I suggested.

Ed Storms

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 12 13:36:34 1999
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: another passive maglev (fwd)
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Hey!  Build this passive magnetic levitator based on Bismuth diamagnetism.
This was featured in Sci. News and Nature.  Below is a message from Dr.
Martin Simon, one of the authors.  Also check out these sites:

  Diamagnetic Levitator (no spin, no batteries!)
  http://lahr.org/john-jan/maglev/maglev.html

  SCITOYS: levitator (w/lots of photos)
  http://www.scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/magnets/suspension.html

To discuss this, join AMATEUR SCIENCE FORUM, see

   http://www.amasci.com/sci-list/sci-list.html

Challenge: make one that pushes up from below, rather than lifting from
above.  Hide the whole thing under a table, so all that you see is a small
magnet which floats above the surface.

Nasty: use a pair of crossed electromagnet coils in quadrature-phase to
accelerate the spin of a tiny disk-magnet until it explodes.  Set this up
in a vacuum chamber, then allow in some air and see if you can duplicate a
"re-entry burn" as your hypervelocity-spinning object collides with the
atmosphere.

Huh? :  I wonder if a spinning magnet displays any obvious "Torsion Field"
effects when it spins at oh, say 10KHz?  Or will this magnet respond to
a distant Torsion Field generator by moving measurably? 


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:44:36 -0700
From: Martin Simon <msimon physics.ucla.edu>
Reply-To: tap-l listproc.appstate.edu
To: tap-l listproc.appstate.edu
Subject: Re: another passive maglev

At 09:00 PM 8/9/99 -0700, William Beaty wrote:
>
>Here's one that uses bismuth instead of graphite.  Plenty of pictures!
>
>  http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/magnets/suspension.html

This is based on our Nature paper and an article about it in Science News. 
It was clever for him to use bismuth shot as a source of diamagnetic
material.  More info and a link to the Nature paper is at
http://www.physics.ucla.edu/marty/diamag/ A longer paper about the
levitator and other variations is almost ready. 

I am going to offer some levitators for sale for use in demonstrations. 
They look similar to the one in pictured on the web site. 

There are 2 models and two types of graphite.

Fixed gap model        	Variable gap 

model RGF   $34		RGV   $44
model PGF   $54                  PGV   $64

The RG models use a purified graphite which has a diamagnetic
susceptibility similar to bismuth.  The gap between the magnet and the
graphite plates is smaller than that shown in the picture. 

The PG models use the most diamagnetic substance available, a
form of graphite with a very anisotropic susceptibility.  It gives the
largest gap but is much more expensive.

The variable gap versions have an adjustable gap that can accomodate
small magnets between 1/16 of an inch and 1/4 of an inch tall.   They
allow for experimenting with single sided stabilization.  The top magnet
can be removed if one wants to experiment with different lifters, although
the new lifter would need to be supported in some way.

The fixed gap versions are set to handle a 1/8 inch magnet (which is
included).

You can easily make these yourself.  I have had a technician make up 
a limited number with an optimized compact design.  We are trying
to cover costs and pay the technician well for his time.  Mailing is 
included in the price.

Checks can be made out to me and mailed to

Martin Simon
UCLA Dept. of Physics and Astronomy
405 Hilgard Ave
Los Angeles CA 90095

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Dear folks,

	Help  PLEASE !
	A friend of mine has AOL... he is MORE computer illiterate than
I... who cannot write a batch file    or, really, anything beside GOTO in
Basic TI 99-4A

	SO:  I have forwarded to him a letter to me which has 2 different
attachments.  I need to be able to tell him, over the phone

	BLOW BY GRINDING BLOW  ........ abbreviated BBGB 

	How to get the attachments into word pad....
	We have already figured out how to get a file from AOL into the
buffer and then into word Pad... BUT:
	I don't know how to tell him how to manipulte, or even FIND the
attachment.  He is in Chicago so I cannot 'intuit' it for him... and I
have NEVER seen AOL

	Can you help to:

	locate attch.
	select attch.
	maybe change format from word to TxT
	put into buffer to "copy" over to Word pad

		Blow By Grinding Blow ... what the icons look like and so on... 


			Thanks,

				J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 12 15:27:00 1999
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August 13, 1999

Vortex,

Ed wrote:

<snips>
 
> This is an example if a little knowledge being dangerous.

Yes it is, especially when the suggestion given was based on the the
simple observation that Scott's Austin water turned yelloow on exposure
to Hydrogen over time. And the comment hardly is constructive.
   
> The Electromotive Series gives the hypothetical EMF of a cell in which the
> components are in their standard states.

The Series values are not hypothetical. These values were noted over the
years under standard laboratory conditions under standard values. Have
to start somewhere.

> This means the gases are at 1 atm and
> the ions are at a 1 molar concentration. The reaction H2(1atm) =2H+ + 2e is taken
> as having an EMF of 0.000 as an arbitrary reference value.
> The reaction Fe++ =Fe+++ + e has a value of -0.7477.  Thus, the reaction
> H2 + 2Fe+++ = 2H+ + 2Fe++ would have a voltage of +0.7477 if the H2 were at 
> 1 atm and the ions were at 1 molar.

So there is no difference here under which Jones reached his own
conclusions based on CRC data.

> For other concentrations, the equation  E = Eo -(RT/nF) ln (ap/ar),  where ap and
> ar are the activities of the products and reactants, respectively and Eo is the
> standard potential as noted above. Each activity is raised to the power of its
> coefficient in the equilibrium equation.
> The equilibrium constant for the above reaction can be obtained from
> Eo = RT/nF ln K  where K = ((H+)^2 * (Fe++)^2)/(PH2) * (Fe+++)^2).
> Substituting values we get:  .7477 = .05915/2 ln K  or  K = 10^(29.04)  or K =
> 1.09 * 10^29
> As you can see, when H2 at 1 atm is in equilibrium with a mixture of Fe++ and
> Fe+++. the concentration of Fe++ will be much higher than that of Fe+++.
> Therefore, Fe+++ will be reduced to Fe++ as I suggested.

City of Austin, like any city that handles the city water supply, is
required by federal and state law to keep tabs on their water quality
standards continuously. In calling Austin, Texas water department, (with
a discount access number :) ), I was able to access their website <<
http://www.ci.austin.tx.usa/water/watersummary/2.htm >> where their
listing of the current (April 1 to June 30, 1999) water quality contents
are listed. Also I talked to their Water Quality Laboratory about their
data and the question of their water turning yellow under hydrogen.
The Austin tap water does contain iron. But it also contains, in greater
quantity, Aluminum. Altogether seventeen metal elements exists in Austin
tap water in various combined states. Total Organic Carbon exists around
2 ppm. Any iron ferric compound would have to exist, if any, under this
limitation.  
The most abundant, in decreasing quantities are Aluminum, Iron, Nickel,
Zinc, Chromium, Silver, Barium and Manganese. 
And Austin water meets Federal SDWA MCL standards (Safe Drinking Water
Act  Maximum Contaminahnt Level) 
The Water Quality Laboratory ( 512-421-3777 ) did not know what to make
of the 'yellow water' other than to suggest something picked up in the
distribution system or the site where it occurred.
So. Ed's guess is good, but good as any. Who knows? Maybe runniung
hydrogen into our own tap waters may get the same results that Scott
observed.

-AK-

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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Elecromotive Force Series -- Re: yellow water
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Hi Vortexans
	I am back on the list after a two week vacation in Maine. Did
anything important happen?

I am retiring from Boeing/Rocketdyne at the end of August, and starting work
towards a Masters degree in Physics at California State University at
Northridge (CSUN) . I have an RA in the Center for Computational Materials
Theory, at a salary of about 1/8 what I am making now. Am I crazy or what?
I plan on studying the interaction of H2 and D2 with Palladium and Platinum.

Hank
ex-Rocket Scientist

> ----------
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 12 15:54:44 1999
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August 13, 1999

John,

A TI99-4A? Got it when it went to fifty bucks? Bad move. :)

Unless I am told otherwise, saving and converting jinto Wordpad  your e-mail with
the attachments have caused your friend to lose the attachments. Better send him
the e-mail with attachments again. But before that, have your friend access AOL's
HELP file online or to call AOL for their BBGB detail on accessing attached files.

>       A friend of mine has AOL... he is MORE computer illiterate than
>I  who cannot write a batch file, or really, anything beside GOTO in
>Basic TI 99-4A.
 >   SO:  I have forwarded to him a letter to me which has 2 different
>attachments.  I need to be able to tell him, over the phone
>BLOW BY GRINDING BLOW  ........ abbreviated BBGB
>How to get the attachments into Word pad....
>We have already figured out how to get a file from AOL into the
>buffer and then into word Pad... BUT:
>I don't know how to tell him how to manipulte, or even FIND the
>attachment.  He is in Chicago so I cannot 'intuit' it for him... and I
>have NEVER seen AOL.
>Can you help to:
>locate attch.
>select attch.
>maybe change format from word to TxT
>put into buffer to "copy" over to Word pad
>Blow By Grinding Blow ... what the icons look like and so on..



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 12 19:10:59 1999
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Bee Bee Gee Bee 99-4A at 10 souysa

	Kept me up till 3:00 am that first night....
	I read the book and figured out how to cause it to generate random
numbers which then fed to the PWM souns ... so it palyed random bllee bee
bree blee bree blee blee dree dree...
	My wife came out to the living room to see me sitting crosslegged
in the middle of the floor and she asked, at about 3:00 am
	"What are you DOING?" ... To which I replied 
	"Listen to THIS ...!"  and the TI played Blee dree dee dee dree
blee... and my wife rejoined, with the final and appropriate words

	"Go to bed"

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 12 20:03:40 1999
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Elecromotive Force Series -- Re: yellow water
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----- Original Message -----
From: Scudder, Henry J <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 3:50 PM
Subject: RE: Elecromotive Force Series -- Re: yellow water

Not much, Hank, except "Chicken Little's" raindrop turned yellow. :-)

Best,    Frederick


> Hi Vortexans
> I am back on the list after a two week vacation in Maine. Did
> anything important happen?
>
> I am retiring from Boeing/Rocketdyne at the end of August, and starting
work
> towards a Masters degree in Physics at California State University at
> Northridge (CSUN) . I have an RA in the Center for Computational Materials
> Theory, at a salary of about 1/8 what I am making now. Am I crazy or what?
> I plan on studying the interaction of H2 and D2 with Palladium and
Platinum.
>
> Hank
> ex-Rocket Scientist
>
> > ----------
> >
>
>

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Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:29:41 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Elecromotive Force Series -- Re: yellow water
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>> >August 12, 1999
>> >
>> >Vortex,
>> >
>> >Back in the fifties, I was introduced to the electromotive force series in
>> >high
>> >school chemistry. It remained in my mind throiugh the years. So when Ed
>>wrote:
>> >
>> >> I suggest your water is high in iron.  The hydrogen is slowly
>>reducing the
>> >> organic ferric iron to the  ferrous ion which is yellow.  If this is the
>> >> case, ------
>> >
>> >This rang a bell. I finally got around to checking on the suggestion of
>> >hydrogen reducing ferric (F+++) to (Fe++). According to a table of
>> >elements, Fe
>> >to Fe++ and Fe to Fe+++ listing of electrode potentials are above H to H+,
>> >ferrous being much higher than ferric, meaning hydrogen cannot reduce
>> >ferric to
>> >ferrous.Taking H to H+ as zero, Fe to Fe++ is 0.441 and Fe to Fe+++ is
>>0.045.
>> >I notice the more recent chemistry reference books only mention the
>>series but
>> >do not list them. I found the series in a CRC 1936-1937 handbook which was
>> >handy.
>> >
>> >-AK-
>>
>> ***{To check out your analysis, I opened my *Handbook of Chemistry and
>> Physics*, 40th ed., to the section entitled "Oxidation Potentials of the
>> Elements," and found the following:
>>
>> (1) Fe --> Fe++ + 2e- requires .44 volts more than H --> H+ + 1e-
>>
>> I take the above to mean that an anode potential that will strip an
>> electron away from H (in H2) is insufficient to strip electrons away from
>> Fe (in Fe2). The implication would seem to be that H+ ions in solution will
>> be unable to convert Fe to Fe++ (oxidation) by stripping away electrons,
>> while Fe++ will strip electrons away from H2. That is: Fe++ + 2H -->  Fe +
>> 2H+, which means ferrous iron will be reduced in the presence of H2.
>>
>> (2) Fe++ --> Fe+++ + 1e- requires .771 volts less than H --> H+ + 1e-
>>
>> The above suggests to me that a potential capable of stripping an electron
>> away from H (in H2) will be *more than adequate* to strip an electron away
>> from an Fe++ ion, converting it to Fe+++. The implication: H+ ions in
>> solution will be able to convert  Fe++ to Fe+++ (oxidation) by stripping
>> away electrons, while Fe+++ will *not* be able to strip electrons away from
>> H2. Thus the reaction Fe+++ + H --> Fe++ + H+ does not take place--which
>> means ferric iron is not reduced to ferrous in the presence of hydrogen.
>>
>> It therefore appears that your conclusion is correct. Thanks for the
>> chemistry lesson. (I had often flipped past this section of my *Handbook*
>> without appreciating its significance, but no more!)
>>
>> --Mitchell Jones}***
>
>This is an example if a little knowledge being dangerous.

***{Dangerous? You really do need to stop reading those tabloid newspapers,
Ed. Those stories about people's heads exploding after they were proven
wrong are, well, wrong. (If you feel a headache coming on, take some
aspirin and e-mail me in the morning. ;-) --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>The Electromotive Series gives the hypothetical EMF

***{According to my *Handbook*, the values are measured, not hypothetical.
For example, the authors comment that "The agreement of values given by
independent workers is not always good due to differences of surface
characteristics of electrodes. For difficulties met in measuring reversible
electrode potentials one is referred to texts as written by Latimer and by
Bockris." --MJ}***

 of a cell in which the
>components are in their standard states.  This means the gases are at 1
>atm and
>the ions are at a 1 molar concentration.

***{Temperature, which you did not mention, obviously needs to be
specified, since metals in solution lose electrons more easily as
temperature rises, irrespective of the potential difference across the
cell. That's why, in the 40th edition *Handbook*, the temperature is
specified to be 25 deg. C for the listing of oxidation potentials that is
given. However, I fail to see the relevance of pressure or molar
concentration, since neither value will alter the electromotive force
required to pull an electron off of a metallic atom/ion in the solution.
Logically, at a given temperature, the metallic atoms/ions can be arranged
into a series in the decreasing order of the electromotive force required
to strip off their outer electrons, and that series will be the same
*irrespective* of variations in irrelevant parameters such as pressure or
molar concentration. Moreover, this is the explicit view of the authors of
the *Handbook*, who on pg. 3089 define "electromotive series" as follows:

"[The] electromotive series is a list of the metals arranged in the
decreasing order of their tendencies to pass into ionic form by losing
electrons."

What possible purpose would be served by publishing such a list, if the
order varied depending on the pressure and the molarity of the solutions?

According to Akira, one of the purposes of making such a list available is
to enable a person to decide what types of reactions are permitted and what
types are not. Such an application was apparently taught to him in high
school chemistry, assuming that he did not hallucinate the whole thing. And
the list would obviously not be useful for such a purpose if the order
varied depending on pressure and molarity, as you imply.

--Mitchell Jones}***

  The reaction H2(1atm) =2H+ + 2e is taken
>as having an EMF of 0.000 as an arbitrary reference value.
>The reaction Fe++ =Fe+++ + e has a value of -0.7477.  Thus, the reaction
>H2 + 2Fe+++ = 2H+ + 2Fe++
>would have a voltage of +0.7477 if the H2 were at 1 atm and the ions were at 1
>molar.

***{At room temperature, the iron reduction side of the above alleged
equilibrium reaction strikes me as absurd. That absurdity can be
highlighted by inserting a middle step into the reaction, as follows:

 H2 + 2Fe+++ --> 2H+ + 2e- + 2Fe+++ --> 2H+ + 2Fe++

Why, in the in-between step, would the two electrons go to the ferric iron?
Remember: according to the electromotive force series, the pull from the
2H+ is .7 volts stronger than that of the 2Fe+++. Thus to suppose that the
above is possible is to suppose that the electrons accelerate in a
direction *opposite* that indicated by the forces acting on them, in
violation of Newton's second law of motion. If Newton's 2nd law doesn't
apply here, why not?

The only counter-argument I can come up with is simply that these reactions
occur during moments when the particles are in collision. That means the
three particles specified in the middle step, above, would be in very close
proximity to one another, and it is possible that collision forces--due to
kinetic energy, and, hence, to temperature--might briefly predominate over
the Coulomb forces. Result: I can imagine that during some of the
collisions, due to chance, an e- and an Fe+++ might rebound in roughly the
same direction, allowing the Fe+++ to briefly capture the e-. (It would, of
course, lose it again almost instantly, due to a subsequent collision with
an H+ ion--which would be plentiful in Scott's solution.)

Unfortunately, such a counter-argument merely defines a possibility, not a
fact. To convert it into a fact, we would either need a quantitative
calculation demonstrating that collision forces do, in fact, dominate over
coulomb forces during collisions at 25 deg. C, or else we would need a
reference to a specific experiment in which reduction of ferric iron to
ferrous by means of hydrogen occurs at 25 deg C or less.

In pursuit of the latter possibility, I discovered that if steam is passed
through a tube containing *red hot* iron filings, we get:

3Fe (red hot) + 4H2O --> Fe3O4 + 4H2.

Moreover, the above reaction is reversible. If we pass hydrogen gas over
equally hot iron oxide in a tube, steam comes out the other end, leaving
metallic iron in the tube, as follows:

 Fe3O4 + 4H2 --> 3Fe (red hot) + 4H2O (superheated steam)

I don't know the temperature of red hot iron offhand, but I would guess 600
deg. C. That means the reduction side of this reaction, practically
speaking, is not going to occur at room temperature--precisely as Akira
concluded in his analysis. Thus the kind of reasoning he used applies very
well to this situation, and indicates that it is *very* unlikely that Scott
Little's "yellow water" is due to the reduction of ferric iron by hydrogen.

And, by the way, thus far it is also *pure assumption* on your part that
such a reduction, if it were to occur, would turn water yellow. Do you
actually know of a specific ferrous compound  of iron that, if present in
water, will give it a yellow coloration?

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>For other concentrations, the equation  E = Eo -(RT/nF) ln (ap/ar),  where
>ap and
>ar are the activities of the products and reactants, respectively and Eo
>is the
>standard potential as noted above. Each activity is raised to the power of its
>coefficient in the equilibrium equation.
>
>The equilibrium constant for the above reaction can be obtained from
>
>Eo = RT/nF ln K  where K = ((H+)^2 * (Fe++)^2)/(PH2) * (Fe+++)^2).
>
>Substituting values we get:  .7477 = .05915/2 ln K  or  K = 10^(29.04)  or K =
>1.09 * 10^29
>
>As you can see, when H2 at 1 atm is in equilibrium with a mixture of Fe++ and
>Fe+++. the concentration of Fe++ will be much higher than that of Fe+++.
>Therefore, Fe+++ will be reduced to Fe++ as I suggested.

***{In essence, you are simply *assuming* that both Fe+++ + H --> Fe++ + H+
and Fe++ + H+ --> Fe+++ + H are bona fide reactions at room temperature.
Given that assumption, then we obviously have an equilibrium situation.
Result: as the concentration of H2 in the solution is progressively
increased, the number of Fe++ ions will increase as necessary to move the
solution back toward equilibrium. (According to the so called "law of mass
action," the speed of a chemical reaction is proportional to the product of
the concentrations of the reacting particles.) Thus if the iron reduction
side of the reaction is possible at room temperature, then as more and more
hydrogen is bubbled into the solution, the rate of ferric iron reduction
will increase, resulting in a buildup of ferrous iron in the solution.

The question is, how do you know your assumption is true? Akira argued,
based on a plausible interpretation of the electromotive series, that the
reaction H2 + 2Fe+++ --> 2H+ + 2Fe++ is forbidden here--i.e., that for
practical purposes it cannot happen at room temperature. Thus far, despite
your Olympian pronouncement to the contrary and your irrelevant
mathematical scribblings, you have supplied not an iota of evidence that he
is wrong.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Ed Storms



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Greetings,

Well... not to beat a dead Texan joke into the ground water... but, if you can't
find a better use for Austin water, why not just bottle it and call it a "AA" (not
Austin anonymous... see the story from today's science wire)

       Super batteries to last 50 percent longer with the help of 'super iron'

Copyright © 1999 Nando Media    Copyright © 1999 Associated Press

>From Time to Time: Nando's in-depth look at the 20th century.

By LAURAN NEERGAARD

WASHINGTON (August 12, 1999 6:55 p.m. EDT http://www.nandotimes.com) - A new
generation of batteries that could run that pink bunny ragged may be on the
horizon: They last 50 percent longer than today's batteries, thanks to a
"super-iron" component that promises to be easy and affordable to manufacture.
They're still under development, so don't look for them in local stores soon.

But researchers at the Israel Institute of Technology invented super batteries
that could run CD players and flashlights - and say the new batteries also could
come in the rechargeable forms needed to power camcorders, laptop computers, even
electric cars.

"Improved batteries are needed," says Stuart Licht, a chemistry professor who led
the research team in trying a host of materials, from sulfur to tin, before they
discovered an unusual form of iron boosts battery life.

"From the outside, the super-iron batteries look identical to conventional" AA or
AAA batteries, he said in an e-mail interview from Haifa. "The difference is
within, and in the much greater energy generated by the super-iron battery."

The new batteries have 50 percent more energy than traditional batteries, Licht
reports in Friday's edition of the journal Science.

When he tested gadgets that drain batteries at extra-high rates, such as portable
CD players, he found that the super iron also has extra conductivity, leading to
another advantage.

"A conventional AAA-size alkaline battery may last only a few minutes at
high-drain rate, but under the same conditions, a AAA super-iron battery
discharges for well over an hour," he said.

Battery experts called the discovery promising.

"It's a significant advance scientifically," said Jack Winnick, a chemical
engineer at the Georgia Institute of Technology. "I think the manufacturers will
be intrigued by it. The market right now for these alkaline cells is so enormous
... that if they could make a rapid replacement, I think they would."

But Licht declined comment when asked if manufacturers already are interested in
commercializing his invention.

Some 60 billion alkaline batteries - the type most sold - are used worldwide each
year. But their basic internal design hasn't changed much since the late 19th
century: They typically contain a zinc anode and a manganese dioxide cathode.

Batteries convert chemical energy into electrical energy through reactions at the
anode and cathode. When active materials at either electrode are used up, the
battery dies. In most alkaline batteries, the cathode dries up long before the
anode.

So the scientists made a new cathode from "super iron," a chemically unusual form
called iron (VI) that scientists long believed too unstable for batteries -
because if it came into contact with liquids, it disintegrated into rust in
minutes. But Licht discovered that the caustic solutions commonly used inside
batteries actually stabilize the super iron so it doesn't decay.

The super iron absorbs more electrons than the old-fashioned cathode, making it
more powerful, Licht's team showed.

Industry - and consumers - are demanding longer-lasting batteries for a variety of
uses. Electric cars, for instance, have been stalled by the quest for an
affordable battery that can go longer distances without frequent recharging.

Most such research has focused on lithium-based batteries, where highly energetic
but lighter-weight lithium compounds are used to make anodes, said Georgia Tech's
Winnick.

But lithium is much more scarce than iron and a hundred times more expensive,
Licht said.

There are still questions about the new batteries that require further testing,
such as how long a shelf life they will have.

Still, if the batteries ultimately are sold, disposing of used ones will cause a
little less environmental damage than today's batteries because the super-iron
eventually just rusts, Licht said.
 Copyright © 1999 Nando Media


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Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >This is an example if a little knowledge being dangerous.
>
> ***{Dangerous? You really do need to stop reading those tabloid newspapers,
> Ed. Those stories about people's heads exploding after they were proven
> wrong are, well, wrong. (If you feel a headache coming on, take some
> aspirin and e-mail me in the morning. ;-) --Mitchell Jones}***

Dangerous for the truth, Mitchell.

> >The Electromotive Series gives the hypothetical EMF
>
> ***{According to my *Handbook*, the values are measured, not hypothetical.
> For example, the authors comment that "The agreement of values given by
> independent workers is not always good due to differences of surface
> characteristics of electrodes. For difficulties met in measuring reversible
> electrode potentials one is referred to texts as written by Latimer and by
> Bockris." --MJ}***

The values are hypothetical because they are based upon an arbitrary condition
which may not be achievable in the real world and describe half reactions which
are always coupled in the real world to another reaction.  But, excuse me for
introducing this trivial concept into the discussion.

>
>  of a cell in which the
> >components are in their standard states.  This means the gases are at 1
> >atm and
> >the ions are at a 1 molar concentration.
>
> ***{Temperature, which you did not mention, obviously needs to be
> specified, since metals in solution lose electrons more easily as
> temperature rises, irrespective of the potential difference across the
> cell. That's why, in the 40th edition *Handbook*, the temperature is
> specified to be 25 deg. C for the listing of oxidation potentials that is
> given. However, I fail to see the relevance of pressure or molar
> concentration, since neither value will alter the electromotive force
> required to pull an electron off of a metallic atom/ion in the solution.
> Logically, at a given temperature, the metallic atoms/ions can be arranged
> into a series in the decreasing order of the electromotive force required
> to strip off their outer electrons, and that series will be the same
> *irrespective* of variations in irrelevant parameters such as pressure or
> molar concentration. Moreover, this is the explicit view of the authors of
> the *Handbook*, who on pg. 3089 define "electromotive series" as follows:
>
> "[The] electromotive series is a list of the metals arranged in the
> decreasing order of their tendencies to pass into ionic form by losing
> electrons."
>
> What possible purpose would be served by publishing such a list, if the
> order varied depending on the pressure and the molarity of the solutions?
>
> According to Akira, one of the purposes of making such a list available is
> to enable a person to decide what types of reactions are permitted and what
> types are not. Such an application was apparently taught to him in high
> school chemistry, assuming that he did not hallucinate the whole thing. And
> the list would obviously not be useful for such a purpose if the order
> varied depending on pressure and molarity, as you imply.

I'm sorry, Mitchell, the values do depend on pressure and concentration as well as
temperature.  This is why each is fixed in such a list.  Please consult any
physical chemistry text for more information.

>
>   The reaction H2(1atm) =2H+ + 2e is taken
> >as having an EMF of 0.000 as an arbitrary reference value.
> >The reaction Fe++ =Fe+++ + e has a value of -0.7477.  Thus, the reaction
> >H2 + 2Fe+++ = 2H+ + 2Fe++
> >would have a voltage of +0.7477 if the H2 were at 1 atm and the ions were at 1
> >molar.
>
> ***{At room temperature, the iron reduction side of the above alleged
> equilibrium reaction strikes me as absurd. That absurdity can be
> highlighted by inserting a middle step into the reaction, as follows:
>
>  H2 + 2Fe+++ --> 2H+ + 2e- + 2Fe+++ --> 2H+ + 2Fe++
>
> Why, in the in-between step, would the two electrons go to the ferric iron?
> Remember: according to the electromotive force series, the pull from the
> 2H+ is .7 volts stronger than that of the 2Fe+++. Thus to suppose that the
> above is possible is to suppose that the electrons accelerate in a
> direction *opposite* that indicated by the forces acting on them, in
> violation of Newton's second law of motion. If Newton's 2nd law doesn't
> apply here, why not?

No electrons are being "pulled".  The voltages are not actually present in the
system.  They exist only when an electrochemical cell is constructed using the
half reactions.  Instead, think of the voltages as being equivalent to values for
the Gibbs Free Energy, the basic driving force of a chemical reaction.  The
electrons go where a lower Gibbs energy can be achieved.  The "hypothetical"
voltages only serve to show how the Gibbs Energy can be minimized.

>
> The only counter-argument I can come up with is simply that these reactions
> occur during moments when the particles are in collision. That means the
> three particles specified in the middle step, above, would be in very close
> proximity to one another, and it is possible that collision forces--due to
> kinetic energy, and, hence, to temperature--might briefly predominate over
> the Coulomb forces. Result: I can imagine that during some of the
> collisions, due to chance, an e- and an Fe+++ might rebound in roughly the
> same direction, allowing the Fe+++ to briefly capture the e-. (It would, of
> course, lose it again almost instantly, due to a subsequent collision with
> an H+ ion--which would be plentiful in Scott's solution.)

The mechanism of a chemical reaction is not important in deciding whether it
occurs.  Such information is only useful when calculating its rate.  Chemical
reactions, given enough time, will go to the lowest energy state.  In this case,
the reduction of Fe+++ to Fe++.

>
> Unfortunately, such a counter-argument merely defines a possibility, not a
> fact. To convert it into a fact, we would either need a quantitative
> calculation demonstrating that collision forces do, in fact, dominate over
> coulomb forces during collisions at 25 deg. C, or else we would need a
> reference to a specific experiment in which reduction of ferric iron to
> ferrous by means of hydrogen occurs at 25 deg C or less.
>
> In pursuit of the latter possibility, I discovered that if steam is passed
> through a tube containing *red hot* iron filings, we get:
>
> 3Fe (red hot) + 4H2O --> Fe3O4 + 4H2.
>
> Moreover, the above reaction is reversible. If we pass hydrogen gas over
> equally hot iron oxide in a tube, steam comes out the other end, leaving
> metallic iron in the tube, as follows:
>
>  Fe3O4 + 4H2 --> 3Fe (red hot) + 4H2O (superheated steam)
>
> I don't know the temperature of red hot iron offhand, but I would guess 600
> deg. C. That means the reduction side of this reaction, practically
> speaking, is not going to occur at room temperature--precisely as Akira
> concluded in his analysis.

You state that H2 is able to reduce mixed valence iron (i.e. Fe++ + Fe+++) to pure
iron.  A high temperature of 600° is only required to give a reasonable rate, not
to cause the reaction.  In other words, you agree with my conclusion.

> Thus the kind of reasoning he used applies very
> well to this situation, and indicates that it is *very* unlikely that Scott
> Little's "yellow water" is due to the reduction of ferric iron by hydrogen.
>
> And, by the way, thus far it is also *pure assumption* on your part that
> such a reduction, if it were to occur, would turn water yellow. Do you
> actually know of a specific ferrous compound  of iron that, if present in
> water, will give it a yellow coloration?

Most soluble salts of ferrous iron give a yellow solution.  In this case, you
could view the iron being associated with Cl-.

> >For other concentrations, the equation  E = Eo -(RT/nF) ln (ap/ar),  where
> >ap and
> >ar are the activities of the products and reactants, respectively and Eo
> >is the
> >standard potential as noted above. Each activity is raised to the power of its
> >coefficient in the equilibrium equation.
> >
> >The equilibrium constant for the above reaction can be obtained from
> >
> >Eo = RT/nF ln K  where K = ((H+)^2 * (Fe++)^2)/(PH2) * (Fe+++)^2).
> >
> >Substituting values we get:  .7477 = .05915/2 ln K  or  K = 10^(29.04)  or K =
> >1.09 * 10^29
> >
> >As you can see, when H2 at 1 atm is in equilibrium with a mixture of Fe++ and
> >Fe+++. the concentration of Fe++ will be much higher than that of Fe+++.
> >Therefore, Fe+++ will be reduced to Fe++ as I suggested.
>
> ***{In essence, you are simply *assuming* that both Fe+++ + H --> Fe++ + H+
> and Fe++ + H+ --> Fe+++ + H are bona fide reactions at room temperature.

I assume Fe+++ is in the water and I assume the proposed reaction to be fast
enough for Scott to see an effect.  I do not have to assume the proposed reaction
is possible. The tabulated EMF values show this to be true.

>
> Given that assumption, then we obviously have an equilibrium situation.
> Result: as the concentration of H2 in the solution is progressively
> increased, the number of Fe++ ions will increase as necessary to move the
> solution back toward equilibrium. (According to the so called "law of mass
> action," the speed of a chemical reaction is proportional to the product of
> the concentrations of the reacting particles.) Thus if the iron reduction
> side of the reaction is possible at room temperature, then as more and more
> hydrogen is bubbled into the solution, the rate of ferric iron reduction
> will increase, resulting in a buildup of ferrous iron in the solution.

No, the amount of bubbling does not change the rate.  Once the solution is
saturated with dissolved H2. the reaction rate will be constant.  Obviously, the
amount of Fe+++, if it is present at all, is small.  Therefore, very little H2
will be required, probably no more than  can be dissolved in the solution
initially.  Continued bubbling only serves to keep the fixed amount of H2 within
the solution.

>
> The question is, how do you know your assumption is true? Akira argued,
> based on a plausible interpretation of the electromotive series, that the
> reaction H2 + 2Fe+++ --> 2H+ + 2Fe++ is forbidden here--i.e., that for
> practical purposes it cannot happen at room temperature. Thus far, despite
> your Olympian pronouncement to the contrary and your irrelevant
> mathematical scribblings, you have supplied not an iota of evidence that he
> is wrong.

Mitchell, your failure to understand even the most elementary chemistry and
especially your arrogance in maintaining your viewpoints makes any effort to
educate impossible.  Please read a text book on the subject!

Ed Storms


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 13 13:36:12 1999
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See:

http://www.space.com/business/communications/iridium_chapt11.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 13 14:02:33 1999
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Subject: Re: Energy <=> Money
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On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, Richard Tarara wrote:

> Looking closer at the money analogy, can't we trace the electronic form of
> money as it moves about in cyber-space?

Hey, this means that virtual money-on particles may exist.

If a bank transfers some $-quanta to another bank, and if during the
interaction the credit-process occurs before the debit-process, then
for a short time we have a violation of the $-conservation rule.  But
that's OK, because whenever we try to examine this event, the banks will
refuse to allow our investigation.  The closer we look, the less
information is revealed, and so we are unable to prove that $-ton
particles are conserved over small time scales.  Perhaps we can even
perform some experiments where the presence of "illegal" $-ton particles
have an effect.  Virtual $ particles may well exist, but in the long
run, the total number of "real" $ particles is conserved.

Statistical analysis performed on large numbers of $-ton interactions show
that the $-quanta is not the ultimate subdivision.  Rather, it is an
"atom" which apparently is composed of subunits dubbed "$-tinos."  Each $
actually contains four $-tinos, although some might argue that the $-tinos
become delocalized within each $-ton, and therefor lack real existence. 
Does each $-ton have four $-tinos orbiting around within it?  When we
split the $, do we *release* the four $-tinos, or do we *create* them?  Or
perhaps is there a "sea" of virtual $-tinos which can only be accessed
during an interaction, and when the $ is destroyed, the interaction
ejects four $-tinos from the virtual particle sea.

Suppose I store a large number of $-ton particles in a single enormous
gem-quality diamond.  Suppose I drop it and it shatters.  I can no longer
retrieve those $-ton particles from storage.  The $-tropy of the universe
has permanently increased.

Experiments which involve much larger numbers of $-interactions reveal
that the four $-tinos themselves contain even smaller particles. Perhaps
our finanical universe is not constructed of $-tinos, but instead is
nothing but $-uarks, each $-uark having 1/100 the charge of a single $. 
This sort of result is extremely upsetting.  What if the $-uark itself is
composed of subunits?!  If we cannot locate the ultimate quanta behind the
financial universe, how will we ever be able to understand it? 


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 13 15:39:18 1999
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	The Smallest known sub particle of a $ comes from the measurement
of inter $ distances, and is similar, by analogy only, to Barnes the
particle is only theorized as there has never actually been one abstracted
... only put to paper to describe very small increments of matter and is
the 1/1,000 part of a $ ... although there is debate and some believe it
is 1/1,000 part of a $-uark.  It is called a mill uon ... in financial
circles it is very often confused with a million, or rather one million
$....   This whole abstraction leads to the entropic anomaly wherein is
APPEARS to be easier to borrow, or sink one million $ than it APPEARS to
borrow or sink  a few  tinos.

			John "don't know the value of a tino" Schnurer

	"Knowledgeable is a word that should have been clubbed to death
years ago when it started crawlin gabout like the late Lon Cheney" 

					Thurber

	I coined the term Gravity Modification and use it, because I do
not know a process is "anti" gravity or is "shielding" gravity, but I DO
know more than one of the processes Modify Gravity.  This Gravity
Modification is much fun.

					J H Schnurer

	"You cannot fall off the floor"
		
				Paul's Law

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 13 16:51:16 1999
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Mitchell Swartz,
You have made very clear that you are an expert in
iron metabolism and that several statements I made
about the subject are wrong.  I made three
statements.

1. Iron is required in the diet with women needing
more than men.
2. Inorganic iron is more easily absorbed by the
body than is organic iron.
3. Too much iron can cause health problems.

Please tell me which of these statements is wrong
and why.  In addition, I would appreciate your
effort in not providing your characteristic
insults and your complaints about my using an ad
hominem.

Ed Storms

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Subject: Re: Iron metabolism
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At 05:51 PM 8/13/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:
>Mitchell Swartz,
>You have made very clear that you are an expert in
>iron metabolism and that several statements I made
>about the subject are wrong.  I made three
>statements.
>
>1. Iron is required in the diet with women needing
>more than men.
>2. Inorganic iron is more easily absorbed by the
>body than is organic iron.
>3. Too much iron can cause health problems.


 Dear Edmund,

  No. You are inaccurate as to WHAT you said --
AND as to the claim that I purportedly
said that "several statements (you) made
   about the subject are wrong."

  First, there was only one statement
discussed and correct, Ed, and NOT "several". 
Perhaps you are confused in that several vorts
have corrected you about fugacity and made some
comments about the Nernst equation.  Also,
I did point out your error about iron's electronic 
(d5 and d6) states which ARE magnetic as opposed
to what you claimed, but that had/has nothing obvious 
to do with iron metabolism OR the above.




  Second, what you say now is NOT what you said.
  Here is what you said:
At 09:23 AM 8/12/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:
>> "Organic bound iron is necessary in limited quantity
>>   -  less for men than women."

  and this is what was replied:
>>   This is not true.  Iron ions are solvated, and in fact
>> organic bound iron (eg. spinach)is NOT absorbed well
>> (irrespective of Popeye).   In the body, it is organically
>> bound to transferrin, etc. which are far beyond
>> the scope of this post.

   In summary, Ed, there was one correction not several,
and that was to your incorrect statement, 
  "Organic bound iron is necessary in limited quantity
    less for men than women."

   Organic iron is not needed, 
   and in fact has low bioavailability.  All vorts should
study iron metabolism.   Like mathematics, it is the key
to the universe.

     Have a good day.
      Mitchell Swartz



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 13 17:35:50 1999
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At 05:51 PM 8/13/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:

>Please tell me which of these statements is wrong
>and why.  In addition, I would appreciate your
>effort in not providing your characteristic
>insults and your complaints about my using an ad
>hominem.

    We try stick to science here, Edmund, and the
record shows that many of the insults come from you.
Your slick comment is one such, and is as
unsubstantiated as your comment about "several" 
[discussed in the previous post], and as your 
comment about "organic iron" being a dietary requisite 
- which it is not.  

    Have a good day.
    Mitchell Swartz
    



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 13 18:37:45 1999
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OK, if I understand your comments, Mitchell, you say that
organic iron (i.e. iron which is bound to an organic molecule)
is not required for life because such iron is poorly absorbed.
Presumably, the iron which is absorbed and used by the body is
in the ionic form.  Then I would like to ask some other
questions.

1. When I eat meat and ingest the iron contained therein, I am
using the organic iron or only the ionic iron which is present?

2. If I ingest ionic iron from other sources, such as in my
water, can I obtain too much iron?

3. If the iron is in the ionic form, how does the body regulate
the amount which is absorbed?

Ed

Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>
> At 05:51 PM 8/13/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:
> >Mitchell Swartz,
> >You have made very clear that you are an expert in
> >iron metabolism and that several statements I made
> >about the subject are wrong.  I made three
> >statements.
> >
> >1. Iron is required in the diet with women needing
> >more than men.
> >2. Inorganic iron is more easily absorbed by the
> >body than is organic iron.
> >3. Too much iron can cause health problems.
>
>  Dear Edmund,
>
>   No. You are inaccurate as to WHAT you said --
> AND as to the claim that I purportedly
> said that "several statements (you) made
>    about the subject are wrong."
>
>   First, there was only one statement
> discussed and correct, Ed, and NOT "several".
> Perhaps you are confused in that several vorts
> have corrected you about fugacity and made some
> comments about the Nernst equation.  Also,
> I did point out your error about iron's electronic
> (d5 and d6) states which ARE magnetic as opposed
> to what you claimed, but that had/has nothing obvious
> to do with iron metabolism OR the above.
>
>   Second, what you say now is NOT what you said.
>   Here is what you said:
> At 09:23 AM 8/12/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:
> >> "Organic bound iron is necessary in limited quantity
> >>   -  less for men than women."
>
>   and this is what was replied:
> >>   This is not true.  Iron ions are solvated, and in fact
> >> organic bound iron (eg. spinach)is NOT absorbed well
> >> (irrespective of Popeye).   In the body, it is organically
> >> bound to transferrin, etc. which are far beyond
> >> the scope of this post.
>
>    In summary, Ed, there was one correction not several,
> and that was to your incorrect statement,
>   "Organic bound iron is necessary in limited quantity
>     less for men than women."
>
>    Organic iron is not needed,
>    and in fact has low bioavailability.  All vorts should
> study iron metabolism.   Like mathematics, it is the key
> to the universe.
>
>      Have a good day.
>       Mitchell Swartz

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 13 19:14:18 1999
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Iron absorption in the body is a very complex subject.  All arguments
here seem to trivialize the issue.  Take a look at:

http://www.ironpanel.org.au/AIS/IBA/iba_text.html#anchor383375

Best Regards,
Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 13 19:35:49 1999
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	Just recently, as in about 2 minutes, I saw 4 messages, two each
from Ed and Mitchell.  There was dispute and  and some rancor... BUT:
	compared to SOME I have seen, not too much.
	The issues were resolved quickly, mimimum bandwidth.

	BRAVO.... now, I see only one thing that could be bettered:

	I think all Vos want to see goo scince, I also think Ed and Mitch
have contributions to make  
	If you two could be friends, then we may see truly rapid advance

	AND
	FINALLY:

	To all you Vos who might want to spit and moan and hassle around
in the hoogroo .... JUST DON'T DO IT ....	
	I think we wouls all rather the RCS .... Real cool Science

			JHS

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Subject: What's New for Aug 13, 1999

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 13 Aug 99   Washington, DC

1. EVOLUTION: "TOTO, I'VE A FEELING WE'RE NOT IN KANSAS ANYMORE."
Uh, sorry Dorothy, it's Kansas all right--Oz is not this strange.
The tireless foes of reason employed a new strategy this time.
Rather than insisting that "creationism" be taught, or banning
evolution from the classroom, both of which face constitutional
obstacles, the elected state school board simply deleted any
reference to evolution from the curriculum.  And it wasn't just
biological evolution; any mention of "big bang" theory was also
explicitly eliminated.  The chair of the school board defended
the decision on NBC News last night: "Where is the evidence for
that canine-looking creature that somehow has turned into a
porpoise-looking creature," she asked, "or the cow that somehow
has turned into a whale?"  How do these people get on school
boards?  Philistines are much better organized than scientists.
"I'll get you my pretty, and your little dog too." Scary story.

2. ECONOMICS 101: MEANWHILE, MICHIGAN INVESTS IN BIOTECHNOLOGY. 
Using $1 billion of its tobacco settlement money, Michigan aims
to become tops in life sciences research, attracting the sort of
industries that Kansas seems determined to drive off.  Back in
Kansas, today's Topeka Capital-Journal says a software company
has already crossed Topeka off a list of possible locations for a
regional headquarters.  The company's CEO says the education
board's action "isolates Kansas and handicaps its children in a
competitive and unforgiving world."  Governor Bill Graves
expressed disappointment and said the boards's action has left
people across the country wondering "What's going on in Kansas?"

3. PALEONTOLOGY 101: EUKARYOTES ARE MUCH OLDER THAN SUPPOSED.  On
the same day the Kansas school board put the age of the Earth at
less than 10,000 years, scientists in Australia were reporting
evidence that eukaryotes existed 2.7 billion years ago.  

4. CIRCULAR A-110: COMMENT PERIOD COMES AT A BAD TIME. OMB's call
for comments on changes in the rules on public access to research
data comes just as scientists are flying off to international
conferences and vacations.  The comment period ends on Sep 10. 
If you're back, you can view A-110 at
<http://www.whitehouse.gov/OMB/fedreg/2ndnotice-a110.html>
Otherwise, the final version will be waiting for you.  

5. LOS ALAMOS: FORMER DIRECTOR ON THE PUNISHMENT LIST.  Secretary
of Energy Richardson announced yesterday that he was recommending
that John Brown, director of Los Alamos National Laboratory, take
disciplinary action against two former counterintelligence
officials and Sig Hecker, the former director of Los Alamos. No
criminal charges have ever been filed against Wen Ho Lee.

(Helene Grossman contributed to this week's What's New.)

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

--------------5044BD27B0AC3F1EDC3CAEB8--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 13 20:12:09 1999
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Iron metabolism
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At 07:37 PM 8/13/99 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:
>OK, if I understand your comments, Mitchell, you say that
>organic iron (i.e. iron which is bound to an organic molecule)
>is not required for life because such iron is poorly absorbed.
>Presumably, the iron which is absorbed and used by the body is
>in the ionic form.  Then I would like to ask some other
>questions.
>
>1. When I eat meat and ingest the iron contained therein, I am
>using the organic iron or only the ionic iron which is present?
>
>2. If I ingest ionic iron from other sources, such as in my
>water, can I obtain too much iron?
>
>3. If the iron is in the ionic form, how does the body regulate
>the amount which is absorbed?
>
>Ed


  Dear Ed:
   
  I suggested you go to the literature, and continue
with that remark because of the complexity and wonder
of this subject.  For example, octopi and cuttlefish
are the MOST intelligent invertibrates.  I wont bore
you with this except to point out that the ONLY reason
they did not dominate on land is that they did depend
upon copper to carry oxygen.  Iron metabolism 
is such an interesting subject, and the meteor shower 
wont be best until 2 AM   ;-)X
so here is the summary:


   The body has a hard time regulating iron because it has
no good way of elimination.  

   Like Au, Al, Be, Mn, and Zn, Fe is absorbed
less than 5%.
 Furthermore, iron bound to materials like
phytates and oxalates inhibit iron absorption
 -- despite Popeye fables regarding spinach. 
They have high iron content, but appear to not release it.

 For exogenous supplement, by the NAS 1975 data, 
ferrous sulfate is the most efficiently 
absorbed iron preparation, with an efficiency approaching 100%.
It is absorbed so well that some who dont need it, healthy children
can be at risk. The unfortunate infants' skin 
turns a pleasant orange color, and the children love the alcohol
used to dissolve the iron.  Except for the telltale blue-black 
stools and abdominal constipation, it is often missed.


  Pregnant women on the other hand are in perilous iron
balance.  Why?
 Because a man requires 0.9 milligrams of iron per
day, but a pregnant woman requires 2.5 milligrams per day.

 Common dietary sources are a complicated subject 
[for example, white  flour has much absorbable iron, 
but bran does not], and absorption varies widely
dependant upon cofactors (vit. C) and dependent 
upon the electronic state of the iron.  
Ignoring these factors, and the multiple and
complex pathways, we can summarize much data and
issues, qunatitatively as follows:

           ---------------------------------
  Person       Iron requirement  Dietary intake  % absorption
   man               0.9 mg qD       ~15 mg            6%
  preg.woman         2.5             10-15            20-50%
   (after Am J. Clin. 22: 512 (1969)
           ----------------------------------

   Now 20-50% is high, and therefore pregnant women need iron
fortification in their diets, and they should get it, along
with folic acid.
 The comments about bioavailability are above, and the roles
of where iron is important are a whole field in themselves
truly worthy of much study.

   Hope that helps.
   Mitchell Swartz, MD ScD




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 13 21:03:49 1999
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Thomas Gold and his blasphemous "non-biological petroleum" is vindicated?
See attached message.

Also see NEW IDEAS IN SCIENCE
   http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/newidea1.html

...also Gold's recent book THE DEEP HOT BIOSPHERE

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:30:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brad A. Pierce"
To: billb eskimo.com
Subject: Natural methane could be produced abiogenically

   Natural Methane Could Be Produced Abiogenically

   Given enough heat and pressure, a naturally occurring iron-nickel
   alloy can produce methane that looks, for all practical purposes, as
   if it was produced from organic matter, according to work by
   researchers at the University of Minnesota and Oak Ridge National
   Laboratory.

   If the process, which the researchers conducted in the lab, should
   occur in Earth's crust, it could mean a source for methane other
   than digestion or decomposition of dead organic matter. The work is
   published in today's issue of Science.

   The researchers call their process abiogenic -- i.e., not connected
   with biological processes -- methane formation.

   Most methane is thought to be produced when dead organic matter
   decays through the action of microbes or by heat-induced
   decomposition. Other means to produce methane in the laboratory
   exist, but Michael Berndt, a senior research associate in geology
   and geophysics at the University of Minnesota and coauthor of the
   Science paper, said he believes the newly discovered process could
   be an important means of generating methane in nature --
   specifically, under conditions of heat and pressure found deep in
   the Earth's oceanic crust.

   "We're making no guesses as to the percentage of methane that may
   come from this source," said Berndt. "But our study shows that some
   methane thought to have been produced by bacteria may actually have
   been produced abiogenically."

   Developed by Berndt and Juske Horita of the chemical and analytical
   sciences division of Oak Ridge National Laboratory, the new process
   produces methane from bicarbonate ions and hydrogen at temperatures
   up to 400 degrees C. The catalyst for the conversion was an
   iron-nickel alloy found in certain parts of the oceanic crust.
   Berndt said the methane produced was chemically difficult to
   distinguish from organically produced methane.

   As for its significance, he said he would leave that to other
   scientists.

   "Knowing where methane comes from puts us in a better position to
   find it," he said. "The one thing for sure is that methane can no
   longer be assumed to come solely from organic decay." - By Deane
   Morrison


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 13 22:27:05 1999
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Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 00:20:46 -0500
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Iron metabolism
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>Mitchell Swartz,
>You have made very clear that you are an expert in
>iron metabolism

***{The above remark suggests that Mitchell Swartz has been inappropriately
patting himself on the back. As such, it comes across as thinly veiled
sarcasm and is provocative in nature. While we all form opinions about the
knowledge and competence of those with whom we argue, I would suggest that
you should not reveal those opinions in a public forum unless it is crystal
clear that a compliment is intended. Otherwise, discussions tend to
degenerate into pointless bickering. --Mitchell Jones}***

and that several statements I made
>about the subject are wrong.  I made three
>statements.
>
>1. Iron is required in the diet with women needing
>more than men.
>2. Inorganic iron is more easily absorbed by the
>body than is organic iron.
>3. Too much iron can cause health problems.
>
>Please tell me which of these statements is wrong
>and why.  In addition, I would appreciate your
>effort in not providing your characteristic
>insults and your complaints about my using an ad
>hominem.

***{You do tend to employ ad hominems, Ed, and others are entitled to
complain when you do so. If you really are interested in discussions that
reveal worthwhile truths, as you claim, then you should try to focus your
remarks on the substantive content of other people's ideas, rather than on
their personalities, knowledge, competence, etc. (Perhaps you feel that
when someone disputes your opinions, it is a personal attack. If so, you
should cleanse your mind of that notion. This is a discussion group with a
focus on science. As such, criticisms of our opinions are to be expected.
Those criticisms, however, should *not* be laced with ad hominems, whether
thinly veiled or otherwise.) --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Ed Storms

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 14 05:42:02 1999
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  Two minor corrections to the posts.

  Oxalates are spelled as such. 
  And the table:
>           ---------------------------------
>  Person       Iron requirement  Dietary intake  % absorption
>   man               0.9 mg qD       ~15 mg            6%
>  preg.woman         2.5             10-15            20-50%
>   (after Am J. Clin. 22: 512 (1969)
>           ----------------------------------

   should read
>  preg.woman         2.5             10             20-50%

    Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 14 05:51:28 1999
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Subject: Re: Iron metabolism
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----- Original Message -----
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: Iron metabolism

Terry wrote:


> Iron absorption in the body is a very complex subject.  All arguments
> here seem to trivialize the issue.  Take a look at:
>
> http://www.ironpanel.org.au/AIS/IBA/iba_text.html#anchor383375

Excellent link, Terry!

All of this discussion about Iron, takes me back to when I was growing up as
a toddler in Pittsburgh,and my parents were in the Iron and Steel business.

My mother used to Iron, and my father used to Steel.

Regards,      Frederick
>
> Best Regards,
> Terry
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 14 07:00:45 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Tom Gold's Primordial Carbon Hypothesis
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 07:57:37 -0700
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Bill Beaty posted a gripe by Tom Gold of Cornell University, regarding not
being funded for
research supporting his primordial carbon hypothesis.

In the 70s and 80s there were oil/gas wells drilled to 10 miles depth,or
more, that hit methane and helium in good quantity.

With 3.666 pounds of CO2 produced for every pound of carbon burned, I don't
think this planet needs to tap into any more easy carbon sources.

The methane and diamonds coming from volcanic activity already support his
hypothesis.

I vote for biomass energy where photosynthesis "recycles" the carbon without
CO2 buildup, or
Solar-Voltaic-Wind electrolysis of H2O for a hydrogen cycle.

Then again, perhaps Nuclear with LENR/CANR, remediation?

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 14 08:18:01 1999
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From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ca-ois.com>
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At:

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/time/time100/scientist/other/unsung2.html

the article (under the subject heading of "Cranks") is is claimed that
the patent on the the P&F invention has lapsed. I thought patents were
supposed to be good for 17 years. 
  /
 ` =:-/

The subject discovery of Cold Fusion was around 1989. If the patent has
lapsed why hasn't anyone else taken a shot at it....  Mr. Rothwell?
Anyone?

The short article is pasted below. 


                 Stanley Pons and Martin
                 Fleischmann 

                 Producing energy through nuclear fusion is
                 easy enough to do--provided you have a
                 reactor that can generate temperatures hotter
                 than the sun's. If you could somehow achieve
                 fusion at room temperature, you'd have an
                 unlimited source of power that could retire
                 petroleum, nuclear and solar energy for good. 

                 In 1989 chemists B. Stanley Pons and Martin
                 Fleischmann announced to great fanfare that
                 they had done just that, building a bench-top
                 fusion percolator made up of two electrodes
                 and a slug of heavy water. But Pons and
                 Fleischmann were vague about how their
                 "cold fusion" reactor worked, and when other
                 scientists tried to duplicate the pair's results,
                 they got mostly cold water for their trouble. 

                 The University of Utah, which held the patent
                 on the process, allowed it to lapse, and cold
                 fusion fell from view. Pons and Fleischmann
                 repaired to Europe to continue their work--
                 separately and quietly.

Jim Ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 14 09:11:55 1999
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Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 10:10:21 -0600
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References: <3.0.1.32.19990813201912.012ae5e0 world.std.com> <37B4C848.EA7F793D@ix.netcom.com> <37B4FACE.22FC@bellsouth.net>
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Thanks for the web site, Terry.  This helps a lot and finally provides
some useful answers to my questions.

Ed Storms

Terry Blanton wrote:

> Iron absorption in the body is a very complex subject.  All arguments
> here seem to trivialize the issue.  Take a look at:
>
> http://www.ironpanel.org.au/AIS/IBA/iba_text.html#anchor383375
>
> Best Regards,
> Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 14 09:42:41 1999
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The Israel Institute of Technology just announced that they have
successfully replaced the manganese dioxide cathode on a regular alkaline
battery, with Iron(IV), which they are calling Super Iron.  Evidently, of
the two electrodes zinc (anode) and manganese dioxide (cathode) in a normal
caustic cell battery, the manganese dioxide dries up or is used up first.
The Iron (IV) is a chemically unstable form of Iron and was never tried
because it turns to rust within a few minutes of coming in contact with most
liquids or air, however in a caustic solution, the Iron (IV) is stabilized
and becomes Super Iron.  This gives the same battery a 50% more useable
lifetime.  Interestingly enough, the lead researcher's name is Stuart Licht,
German for light.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 14 11:38:05 1999
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From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Jim,
The P-F patent application lapsed, not the patent.  The patent was never
granted.  Over 1 M$ was spent trying to persuade the patent office to
grant the patent but without success.  All replications of the P-M method
as well as the other successful techniques were completely ignored.  The
argument used by the patent office was based on the conflict with current
theory, the absence of expected radiation, and the difficulty of
reproduction.  Skeptical newspaper articles and skeptical scientific
papers were used as the main evidence for rejection.  Although the Patent
Office clearly violated its mandate, insufficient money was available to
take the review process to the next level.  Attempts to obtain an EU
patent were foiled by CETI.  Over 300 patent applications are on hold,
some of which have claims similar to the P-F patent.  This is one more
example of the system acting in a completely irrational and incompetent
manner.

Ed Storms

Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> At:
>
> http://cgi.pathfinder.com/time/time100/scientist/other/unsung2.html
>
> the article (under the subject heading of "Cranks") is is claimed that
> the patent on the the P&F invention has lapsed. I thought patents were
> supposed to be good for 17 years.
>   /
>  ` =:-/
>
> The subject discovery of Cold Fusion was around 1989. If the patent has
> lapsed why hasn't anyone else taken a shot at it....  Mr. Rothwell?
> Anyone?
>
> The short article is pasted below.
>
>                  Stanley Pons and Martin
>                  Fleischmann
>
>                  Producing energy through nuclear fusion is
>                  easy enough to do--provided you have a
>                  reactor that can generate temperatures hotter
>                  than the sun's. If you could somehow achieve
>                  fusion at room temperature, you'd have an
>                  unlimited source of power that could retire
>                  petroleum, nuclear and solar energy for good.
>
>                  In 1989 chemists B. Stanley Pons and Martin
>                  Fleischmann announced to great fanfare that
>                  they had done just that, building a bench-top
>                  fusion percolator made up of two electrodes
>                  and a slug of heavy water. But Pons and
>                  Fleischmann were vague about how their
>                  "cold fusion" reactor worked, and when other
>                  scientists tried to duplicate the pair's results,
>                  they got mostly cold water for their trouble.
>
>                  The University of Utah, which held the patent
>                  on the process, allowed it to lapse, and cold
>                  fusion fell from view. Pons and Fleischmann
>                  repaired to Europe to continue their work--
>                  separately and quietly.
>
> Jim Ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 14 13:31:45 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Pons and Fleischman's CF Patent lapsed?
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>Jim,
>The P-F patent application lapsed, not the patent.  The patent was never
>granted.  Over 1 M$ was spent trying to persuade the patent office to
>grant the patent but without success.  All replications of the P-M method
>as well as the other successful techniques were completely ignored.  The
>argument used by the patent office was based on the conflict with current
>theory, the absence of expected radiation, and the difficulty of
>reproduction.  Skeptical newspaper articles and skeptical scientific
>papers were used as the main evidence for rejection.  Although the Patent
>Office clearly violated its mandate, insufficient money was available to
>take the review process to the next level.  Attempts to obtain an EU
>patent were foiled by CETI.  Over 300 patent applications are on hold,
>some of which have claims similar to the P-F patent.  This is one more
>example of the system acting in a completely irrational and incompetent
>manner.
>
>Ed Storms

***{Well said. On this point we are in complete agreement. --Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 14 14:03:15 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Ionic Conduction in a High-Pressure D2-Noble Gas Mix?
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To: Vortex

Seems to me that in a "Fermi Sea" of electrons in a noble gas (Ar, Kr, or
Xe)
a high-pressure H2 or D2 gas should undergo auto-ionization: D2<---> D+  +
D-
somewhat like the auto-ionization of water: H2O<---> H+ +  H-, especially
under high-pressure.

A cell made from a block of aluminum with a hole hard anodized, or a quartz
tube
in a press fit in a steel block,with a pair of Bridgman Seal Pistons acting
as
high-pressure electrodes could be used to look for ionic conduction in such
a dry device.

IOW, do the hydrogen molecules/atoms tend to dissociate in this manner in Pd
or such,
and do the CF tunneling?

Regards,    Frederick




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 14 21:48:25 1999
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>	"You cannot fall off the floor"
>		
>				Paul's Law

Paul has obviously never traversed the deck of a 100 foot boat in 40 foot
seas and a 100+ knot wind.

"Look Skipper!  I can fly!" - Gilligan

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 14 22:05:10 1999
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Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 21:54:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: JT coeff in Pd/H system
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Scott Little asks:

>[snip] More importantly, is it possible that, despite the pressure drop,
>the Joule-Thomson effect would not even occur in this experiment?

I think Ed Storms already answered this question pretty well. I'll just add
that, as far as I can reason from thermodynamics, the JT effect should occur
in your experiment. 

In thermodynamics one looks at an initial state, a final state and boundary
conditions or process constraints. In your experiment you have gas at
constant high pressure and low pressure. Each needs to be homogeneous (well
mixed); I presume you meet this condition. So, your initial and final states
are consistent with a JT expansion. The expansion must be adiabatic (no heat
supplied nor lost), which I presume you satisfy. There must be no chemical
reaction. Once the hydrogen concentration in the Pd has reached steady state,
there is no more net reaction, so you satisfy this condition, too.
===
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 14 22:15:25 1999
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From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ca-ois.com>
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Edmund Storms wrote:
> 
> Jim,
> The P-F patent application lapsed, not the patent.

Thanks for the clarifications, Ed and Mitchell S.  :-) 

(snip)

>  This is one more
> example of the system acting in a completely irrational and incompetent
> manner.

So do you think Pons and Fleischman were "bought off" (by the "system")
to keep quiet about their discovery? Did they flee to escape the CIA,
MIBS or something like that?

I'm finding a similar pattern of obfuscation as demonstrated by the P&F
article in the literature about the famous Michelson - Morely experiment
and what exactly it proved. It appears that the term "phase velocity" is
a meaningless concept because there is no way to measure or quantify
phase velocity empirically. There are other suspicious aspects of
Special Relativity having to do with Time Dilation and Inertial
Reference Frames. All the "thought experiments" used to explain SR seem
to have a logic resulting in
absurd paradoxes linked to a "system acceptable" dictum known as the
Minkowski Spacetime Diagram. Still investigating this, will let y'all
know when I come up with some coherent explanation.

Things just seem to get weirder and weirder.   

Thanks again for the help.

Jim O.

> 
> Ed Storms
> 
> Jim Ostrowski wrote:
> 
> > At:
> >
> > http://cgi.pathfinder.com/time/time100/scientist/other/unsung2.html
> >
> > the article (under the subject heading of "Cranks") is is claimed that
> > the patent on the the P&F invention has lapsed. I thought patents were
> > supposed to be good for 17 years.
> >   /
> >  ` =:-/
> >
> > The subject discovery of Cold Fusion was around 1989. If the patent has
> > lapsed why hasn't anyone else taken a shot at it....  Mr. Rothwell?
> > Anyone?
> >
> > The short article is pasted below.
> >
> >                  Stanley Pons and Martin
> >                  Fleischmann
> >
> >                  Producing energy through nuclear fusion is
> >                  easy enough to do--provided you have a
> >                  reactor that can generate temperatures hotter
> >                  than the sun's. If you could somehow achieve
> >                  fusion at room temperature, you'd have an
> >                  unlimited source of power that could retire
> >                  petroleum, nuclear and solar energy for good.
> >
> >                  In 1989 chemists B. Stanley Pons and Martin
> >                  Fleischmann announced to great fanfare that
> >                  they had done just that, building a bench-top
> >                  fusion percolator made up of two electrodes
> >                  and a slug of heavy water. But Pons and
> >                  Fleischmann were vague about how their
> >                  "cold fusion" reactor worked, and when other
> >                  scientists tried to duplicate the pair's results,
> >                  they got mostly cold water for their trouble.
> >
> >                  The University of Utah, which held the patent
> >                  on the process, allowed it to lapse, and cold
> >                  fusion fell from view. Pons and Fleischmann
> >                  repaired to Europe to continue their work--
> >                  separately and quietly.
> >
> > Jim Ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 14 22:18:23 1999
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Subject: Re: Smallest particle ...Re: Energy <=> Money
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	Deck.

	Floor.

	You can fall out of the boat or ship... but, according to Paul,
you cannot fall of the floor.
	I seem to remeber a corrlary [sp?] that one could fall THROUGH a
floor...

	Paul, you see, is my older brother, so I can ask him about exact
intent about the law...BUT, as I seem to recall understanding it, the idea
was the floor was as far down as you could go... and if the floor were on
the dirt or a concret slab, you could maybe roll over to the edge and the
off........ but you could not really FALL all to greatly far, maybe sort
of a bump.

	As far as anomalous recalled events:

	Some years ago near the Northeast Kingdom part of Vermont, where
the residents are ... uh.... REAL, I guess is the best way to say it an
event occurred as follows:  On one of the upper floors of a farm house a
temporary "bed" had been made up for a guest by the expediency of a
mattress on the floor.   All parties but one had risen and were having
coffee after breakfast, save one.
	This person was on the mattress which was right on the floor.
When they awoke the became tangeled in the bedclothes, so we had the
story, and, having risen partly the party's feet failed to thier task of
support and down came the occupant with a good loud THUMP....  And this
was as close as anyone knew of to falling off the floor.  But, to be fair,
and to set some of the background, some of the residents and their
relatives had, at one time, been employees of the Union Carbide Battery
Factory and mercury poisoning rendered some of them VERY goofy.

			JOHN

On Sun, 15 Aug 1999, Michael T Huffman wrote:

> 
> >	"You cannot fall off the floor"
> >		
> >				Paul's Law
> 
> Paul has obviously never traversed the deck of a 100 foot boat in 40 foot
> seas and a 100+ knot wind.
> 
> "Look Skipper!  I can fly!" - Gilligan
> 
> Knuke
> 
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 14 22:27:25 1999
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Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 22:14:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Joule-Thomson
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Scott Little wrote:
 
>I have reviewed the literature on accurate measurement of the Joule-Thomson
>coeffcient of gases.  In the discussion of possible error sources, nobody
>ever mentions gas viscosity, which seems to me would result in heating of
>the gas as it raced through the tiny restriction often employed in such
>measurements.  There are two popular configurations for the restriction;
>(1) a porous plug, which produces a low gas velocity through zillions of
>tiny pores and (2) a fine needle valve, which produces a high velocity
>through a single restriction.  One paper discusses the pros and cons of
>each method briefly and even mentions a "jet kinetic energy" effect in
>which some of the thermal energy of the gas is converted into kinetic
>energy as it speeds up in the restriction thus cooling the gas....but there
>is no mention of gas viscosity!  Maybe its just a totally negligible
>effect. 
> 
>Any thoughts?

I'm not an expert, but here are my thoughts. As I understand it, in the JT
effect there is no heat flow inot or out of hte system (adiabatic process).
In going from high to a new low pressure equilibrium state there is always an
entropy increase, i.e. a dissipative process. When the gas expands through a
nozzle, the dissipation takes place afterwards, when the gas jet is
randomized and eventually turned into microscopic motion by viscosity. It
doesn't matter if the viscosity acts during the expansion or afterwards.
Thermodynamics only can make statements about initial and final states.
===
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 15 01:26:30 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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Subject: See notes.. Request for common sense Pons and Fleischman
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	Dear Vo.,

	Please see notes N, comments C, questions Q, and "in general" G in
text below, much cutting.  
	I am not sure who is saying what but will flag the Request for
common Sense, in text, below:
   

On Sat, 14 Aug 1999, Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
> > 
> > Jim,
> > The P-F patent application lapsed, not the patent.
> 
> Thanks for the clarifications, Ed and Mitchell S.  :-) 
> 
> (snip)
> 
> >  This is one more
> > example of the system acting in a completely irrational and incompetent
> > manner.
> 
_______________________________- CUTS-________________________
> 
> I'm finding a similar pattern of obfuscation as demonstrated by the P&F
> article in the literature about the famous Michelson - Morely experiment
> and what exactly it proved.

	--------------_______  flag _______________--------------


 It appears that the term "phase velocity" is
> a meaningless concept because there is no way to measure or quantify
> phase velocity empirically.

	Q: 	What?

	Q: 	Starting when is the concept "phase velocity" meaningless?

	Q:	What prevents measurement of phase velocity?

	C:	Request for common sense.  Maybe there are some proerties
which are difficult or ambiguous or difficult to measure ... but THIS is
NOT one of them!

	N:  There are many times in all walks of life a fundamental lack
of only one or a few aspects of some endeavor yields a skewed outlook.
One of my favorite sayings is something like:
			
	"You mean you can DO that?"

	The last time it came up was this situation:

	We had had an electronic board  go partly bad because the DC power 
had been connected wrong polarity.  We did not have a low power issue
because it was powered from the 115 VAC line. I basically said "We don't
ever have to have this happen again.  We can wire it so no matter WHICH
way the power supply is hooked up, it will ALWAYS be correct."
	One wag responded "You can't do that, it is impossible" ... now
key to this discussion, if this person's mind was ... 'if it is possible
to make things this way then EVERYTHING would be already wired so you
can'thook up backward.  And BECAUSE everything is NOT safe wired in this
manner it is obviously IMPOSSIBLE to do.'
	I simply put in a full wave bridge rectifier.  Now the social
result was interesting to me also:
	The guy who said it was impossible was PISSED OFF and claimed it
was wrong to do this.
	Another guy was smiling and in winder and said "You can DO that?"

	In General:	Very important in vortex type research, in my
opinion, to educate yourself as fully as possible and raie your OWN RED
FLAG if you ever say "You can't di\o that" or ""Blh Bla can not be done."
...
	Raise your own flag, go and do your own research and ask, of all
the people you respect, and those you don't, questions like
	"How do you measure phase velocity"

	CALL TO ARMS FOR VORTEX:
	REQUEST OF ANY PARTICIPANTS, VORTEX OR NOT, CIRCULATE THE
QUESTIONS AND CHALLENGE:

	#1]	Q:	How do you measure phase velocity?
	#2]	Q:	Can you show unambiguously that it is impossible
to measure phase velocity?

	Some general criteria .. which you can use... but it would also be
good to go beyond these criteria.

	a] a signal is a square, sine or triangle wave or arbitrary
waveform wave and rangesfrom approx. 500,000 cps to 10 meg cps
	b] the signal  comes from a moderate impedance source, of, say an
approximate range of 1,000 ohms to 22 ohms DC resistance and same Z at,
say 600 cps and 1,000 cps ... any of these are acceptable.
	c] the signal is on a wire  plastic or enamel insulation, # 40 to
# 8 AWG, steel, copper, plated wire, solid or stranded, and is NOT coaxial
	d]  the wire is terminated with, about 1,000 to 22 ohms, as
desired for signal measurement
	e]	the intent and spirit of these "specs" is to BE loose and
slopy so no one gets all "wrapped about the drive shaft" on some minor
technical point.
	f]	the wire is basically air of dielectrically mounted, as
per the desire of the investigator and layed out to tend to lower
inductance and capacitance.

	Possible General Phase Velocity Protocol

	1] a phase distortion of, say 20 to 40 degrees lead or lag is
introduced.
	The distortion is sensed by phase sensitive detector of some type,
including but not limited to 
		>phase comparator
		>phase locked loop
		>phase sensitive detectors such as the following non
inclusive list: 
	Lock In Amplifier   
	diode bridge
	transistor bridge
	tuned circuit
	FM demodulator
	phase demodulator
	phase-frequency detector

	A run of wire, say 10 feet is set up and a phase distortion is
applied to a steady state signal.  The total system delay, from phase
modulation to phase demodulation is measured.  The measure signal train
includes all parts of the path, modulator and amplification,
limiting and clean up of modulation signal and phase demodulator ,
detecting, limiting, amplification, final output.

	REQUEST	

	ANY SUGGESTIONS HERE?


	C:  I can use this to set the stage for an agreed on USEFUL time
event metric to be used by investigator.
	It would be nice to have a library of agreed on metrics ... as
opposed to "You can't measure it."


			JHS

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 15 02:21:33 1999
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Subject: Allais effect, eclipse pendulum anomaly 
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Here's somebody's explanation for the Allais effect in a message swiped off
sci.space.science. I would guess off the top of my head that the effect on
pendulums that has been claimed is *way* too large to be accounted for by
the lensing effect of the moon, but I'm not mathematically equipped to
tackle this numerically. Does it seem like a plausable explanation?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

>Gravity is usually thought-of (explained) as a static
>phenomenon: Eg: You weigh an apple on a scale, and it weighs
>the same for hours, days: until the apple begins to dry. Yet
>gravity is as amazing as the neutrino passing through
>light-years of lead!
>
>Astrophysically significant phenomenon related to gravity,
>are dynamic: Light passing through a gravitational field is
>deflected: The phenomenon called, gravity lensing, popularizes
>this effect: When a significantly massive object is between the
>observer and a distant astronomically interesting object [ie.
>telescopically visible asterisms, a galaxy, &c], a 'halo'
>appears around the nearer, comprised of gravitationally
>lensed imaging of the more distant.
>
>Gravity, revised to a dynamic explanation, exhibits a similar
>effect: gravity along the line-of-view of an interstitial
>massive object - such as our moon between our sun and an
>observer on the Earth, during the moment of an eclipse - is
>(gets) gravity-lensed: much as light photons, but which are
>obscured by the moon's bulk, and neutrinos, but which are yet
>nearly undetected by modern technology (however, 20%
>fewer are counted at night, per super-KamiokaNDE)
>
>So at the moment of eclipse totality, the gravity (flux) from
>our sun, though passing throught our moon seemingly
>undisturbed, is slightly lensed directly centered beneath the
>moon-shadow focused on the Earth.
>
>And effects such as the Allais anomaly in the Foucault
>pendulum path, during an eclipse totality, may be
>considerably (re)attributable to it.
>
>[Of course, 'harmonist's await the full anti-gravity moment:
>"And I, if I be lifted up, shall draw all men unto me"


- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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Subject: Re: Pons and Fleischman's CF Patent lapsed?
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-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Ostrowski
Subject: Re: Pons and Fleischman's CF Patent lapsed?


<snip>

>So do you think Pons and Fleischman were "bought off" (by the "system")
>to keep quiet about their discovery? Did they flee to escape the CIA,
>MIBS or something like that?


Nothing like that. Pons got tired of the harassment by the physics
establishment here. Fleischmann is a British subject. They were set up in a
laboratory in the south of France by the Toyoda family (head of Toyota
motors). Pons became a French citizen. They worked for several years with
success. They left and the lab has closed, I believe, for reasons unclear to
me (it may have been the death of their patron). Jed may have more of the
story, perhaps more correctly. Fleischmann is still quietly active and
appears in the "Fire from Water" video. Pons declined to be interviewed.

>I'm finding a similar pattern of obfuscation as demonstrated by the P&F
>article

The quoted article about the patent is not obfuscation, just
misunderstanding by an ill-informed writer who did not use the precise
appropriate language. The experiment is indeed hard to duplicate and it has
taken years to understand how to do it. It took F&P five years to pull it
off themselves, and they are expert electrochemists.

>in the literature about the famous Michelson - Morely experiment
>and what exactly it proved.

There have been a number of post mortems of the M-M experiment, which
indicate that it's failure to measure aether drift was due to incomplete
understanding of artifacts in the experimental setup. Other experiments do
appear to measure absolute motion of the earth against a pervasive aether.
Aspden discusses this at length in some of his papers on his website
<www.energyscience.co.uk>

Mike Carrell

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John Schnurer wrote:
> 
>         Dear Vo.,
> 
>         Please see notes N, comments C, questions Q, and "in general" G in
> text below, much cutting.
>         I am not sure who is saying what but will flag the Request for
> common Sense, in text, below:
> 

(snip)

>  Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> > I'm finding a similar pattern of obfuscation as demonstrated by the P&F
> > article in the literature about the famous Michelson - Morely experiment
> > and what exactly it proved.
> > It appears that the term "phase velocity" is
> > a meaningless concept because there is no way to measure or quantify
> > phase velocity empirically.
> 
>         Q:      What?
> 

This is according to scientists who cannot even define the term in some
way meaningful to an experimenter with an oscilloscope. Check out the
site at :

http://lal.cs.byu.edu/ketav/issue_3.2/Lumin/lumin.html

And tell me what you think. Particularly of the "Treaty of Shalimar"
Star Trek analogy and the two quotes from there below:

"Einstein causality rules out the propagation of any signal traveling
faster than light, but it does not limit the group velocity of
electromagnetic propagation." - Chaio "

"It was the phase velocity of the
radio waves that was moving faster than light, not the more physical
group velocity" - Nick Herbert "Faster than Light" 

>         Q:      Starting when is the concept "phase velocity" meaningless?

If you can define it based on the contradictory quotes above, please
enlighten us. 


> 
>         Q:      What prevents measurement of phase velocity?
> 

Lack of a definition for the term meaningful to an experimenter with an
oscilloscope.

>         C:      Request for common sense.  Maybe there are some proerties
> which are difficult or ambiguous or difficult to measure ... but THIS is
> NOT one of them!

Great, John! Tell us! Tell us! What is phase velocity and how does one
measure the phase velocity?

 ;-) 

> 
>         N:  There are many times in all walks of life a fundamental lack
> of only one or a few aspects of some endeavor yields a skewed outlook.
> One of my favorite sayings is something like:
> 
>         "You mean you can DO that?"
> 
>         The last time it came up was this situation:
> 
>         We had had an electronic board  go partly bad because the DC power
> had been connected wrong polarity.  We did not have a low power issue
> because it was powered from the 115 VAC line. I basically said "We don't
> ever have to have this happen again.  We can wire it so no matter WHICH
> way the power supply is hooked up, it will ALWAYS be correct."

A full wave bridge rectifier will do this? Pardon my French but "BS"!

>         One wag responded "You can't do that, it is impossible" ... now
> key to this discussion, if this person's mind was ... 'if it is possible
> to make things this way then EVERYTHING would be already wired so you
> can'thook up backward.  And BECAUSE everything is NOT safe wired in this
> manner it is obviously IMPOSSIBLE to do.'
>         I simply put in a full wave bridge rectifier.

A full wave bridge rectifier will not convert a negative DC source into
a positive DC source. However it will prevent you from doing any damage
if the source polarity is accidentally reversed. You can do the same
thing with just ONE diode.  This does NOT mean that no matter which way
you attach the source voltage it will ALWAYS BE CORRECT.

  Now the social
> result was interesting to me also:

>         The guy who said it was impossible was PISSED OFF and claimed it
> was wrong to do this.
>         Another guy was smiling and in winder and said "You can DO that?"
> 


:-) ONLY you, John! Us mere mortals can't think of a way to make a full
wave bridge rectifier convert a positive DC source into a negative one,
or vice versa... 

>         In General:     Very important in vortex type research, in my
> opinion, to educate yourself as fully as possible and raie your OWN RED
> FLAG if you ever say "You can't di\o that" or ""Blh Bla can not be done."


What is "vortex type research"? 

> ...
>         Raise your own flag, go and do your own research and ask, of all
> the people you respect, and those you don't, questions like
>         "How do you measure phase velocity"


OK, I'll bite: how do you measure the "velocity" of a "phase"?

Or is it the "Phase" of a "velocity"? 

> 
>         CALL TO ARMS FOR VORTEX:

A call to arms? Are the redcoats coming? The white coats...? Dr.
DeMento? 


>         REQUEST OF ANY PARTICIPANTS, VORTEX OR NOT, CIRCULATE THE
> QUESTIONS AND CHALLENGE:
> 
>         #1]     Q:      How do you measure phase velocity?
>         #2]     Q:      Can you show unambiguously that it is impossible
> to measure phase velocity?

First, please tell us your definition of the term "phase velocity". 

Do you mean how fast you can cause a phase shift from say 10 degrees to
20 degrees measured at one point on the circuit?
  
Or do you mean if you cause a phase shift at one end of a 300 meter wire
how long before the phase shift shows up at the other end?  

> 
>         Some general criteria .. which you can use... but it would also be
> good to go beyond these criteria.
> 
>         a] a signal is a square, sine or triangle wave or arbitrary
> waveform wave and rangesfrom approx. 500,000 cps to 10 meg cps

Ostrowski's definition of a "signal":

A signal is the transfer of unpredictable information across any
distance.

All information transfer is the result of precoding. Both receiver and
transmitter must agree on the meaning of tranferred data "bits". A bit
is the smallest individual "particle" of information and is the binary
state 1 or 0.

Why don't we start HERE?

Jim O.

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Mike Carrell wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Ostrowski
> Subject: Re: Pons and Fleischman's CF Patent lapsed?
> 
> <snip>
> 
> >So do you think Pons and Fleischman were "bought off" (by the "system")
> >to keep quiet about their discovery? Did they flee to escape the CIA,
> >MIBS or something like that?
> 
> Nothing like that. Pons got tired of the harassment by the physics
> establishment here.

Well, that makes a lot of sense. Upstarts getting quashed by the higher
up Nay sayers...it's almost the same thing. Some don't cave in untill
they are visited by the CIA or the MIBS, but they all cave to pressure
at some level sooner or later.

> >I'm finding a similar pattern of obfuscation as demonstrated by the P&F
> >article
> 
> The quoted article about the patent is not obfuscation, just
> misunderstanding by an ill-informed writer who did not use the precise
> appropriate language.

Little innaccuracies like that give people the wrong impresssion, just
the same. First they think it was patented, therefore might have had
some merit, but time proved otherwise so it really didn't. The fact is
the patent was never granted, therefore no one would touch it because
they couln't protect their investment interest. That's an entirely
different story. 

For the most part people become interested in things based on little
articles like that, and will not bother to read long winded treatises on
a subject that they are only marginally interrested in. Like me, I am
marginally intersted in cold fusion progress, but I have the majority of
my interests elsewhere. If something big were to break, that could
change of course.

 I've been waiting around for that fusion powered rocket capable of
propelling 
a space vehicle continuously at an accelleration of 1 g for two years...
any hope in your opinion, Mike?

 The experiment is indeed hard to duplicate and it has
> taken years to understand how to do it. It took F&P five years to pull it
> off themselves, and they are expert electrochemists.
> 
> >in the literature about the famous Michelson - Morely experiment
> >and what exactly it proved.
> 
> There have been a number of post mortems of the M-M experiment, which
> indicate that it's failure to measure aether drift was due to incomplete
> understanding of artifacts in the experimental setup. Other experiments do
> appear to measure absolute motion of the earth against a pervasive aether.

It always bothered me that when discussing the "velocity" of "light"
propagation it seems that no one pays attention to the fact that em
radiation in the monochrome, single frequency case goes faster or slower
depending on the nanometer wl through various mediums. Trying to analyse
the velocity of the hodgepodge of frequencies called "light" just
confuses the issue. 

> Aspden discusses this at length in some of his papers on his website
> <www.energyscience.co.uk>

Thanks, I will check it out. :-)

Jim Ostrowski


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 15 11:57:08 1999
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Subject: Re: Tom Gold's Primordial Carbon Hypothesis
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Frederick,

You wrote:

> Bill Beaty posted a gripe by Tom Gold of Cornell University, regarding not
> being funded for research supporting his primordial carbon hypothesis.

Actually, his "gripe" is a much broader criticism of the peer (sneer) review
system than that which condemns his heretical views for the origins of
petroleum.

I had to wonder about the origin of "fossil" fuels when I read that
hydrocarbons were found on and around Venus and now I learn that such were
found on Jupiter as well.  A heretic like Velikovsky was a healthy thing.
He made people think, at least a little bit.

I also have no desire to see continued use of such fuels, but I recommend
highly the article by Gold (http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/newidea1.html) for
anyone who wonders about the wisdom of the present method for passing out
research dollars.

Social forces are most powerful where ignored.


Ed Wall
New Energy Research Laboratory
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822    fax:(603) 224-5975
ewall infinite-energy.com     www.infinite-energy.com



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 15 12:19:42 1999
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Subject: Help from Vos, please . Request for common sense P and F
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	Der Vo.,

	Please see some notes and so on, below.  I pleas, respectfully ask
any Vos especially those with background in appropriate disciplines to
comment.
	I can probably guarantee now that I will not say or rather write
everything correctly, please help us all to get the correct message out..

	Below see notes and so on, some cuts and BRIEF response, intended
to bring others into the discussion, to correct things not right.


On Sun, 15 Aug 1999, Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> John Schnurer wrote:
> > 
> >         Dear Vo.,
> > 
> >         Please see notes N, comments C, questions Q, and "in general" G in
> > text below, much cutting.
> >         I am not sure who is saying what but will flag the Request for
> > common Sense, in text, below:
> > 
> 
> (snip)
> 
> >  Jim Ostrowski wrote:
> 
> > > I'm finding a similar pattern of obfuscation as demonstrated by the P&F
> > > article in the literature about the famous Michelson - Morely experiment
> > > and what exactly it proved.
> > > It appears that the term "phase velocity" is
> > > a meaningless concept because there is no way to measure or quantify
> > > phase velocity empirically.
> > 
> >         Q:      What?
> > 
> 
> This is according to scientists who cannot even define the term in some
> way meaningful to an experimenter with an oscilloscope. Check out the
> site at :
> 


> http://lal.cs.byu.edu/ketav/issue_3.2/Lumin/lumin.html


	I do not have www access.  So I cannot say if the site above is
grand or poor.
	A brief lay description of phase velocity might go like this:

_______________  PHASE VELOCITY " OSCILLOSCOPE " DEFINITION -------
		ABBREVIATED    PVOD ____________________- 

	A periodic waveform is conveyed over a long wire.  A phase
distortion, of, say a nominal 40 degrees lead is introduced.  To say it
another way:  The periodic waveform is CW or Continuous Wave and has been
established on a long wire.  A 40 degree lead is introduced at one end,
abd the phase lead is sensed or detected at  the other end .... if the
phase lead takes 1 second to get to the end of a 1,000 mile wire, then the
phase velocity is 1,000 miles per second.

> 
> And tell me what you think. Particularly of the "Treaty of Shalimar"
> Star Trek analogy and the two quotes from there below:
> 
> "Einstein causality rules out the propagation of any signal traveling
> faster than light, but it does not limit the group velocity of
> electromagnetic propagation." - Chaio "
> 
> "It was the phase velocity of the
> radio waves that was moving faster than light, not the more physical
> group velocity" - Nick Herbert "Faster than Light" 
> 
	I don't have any great comment of the TV show, I like to watch it
with my daughter.

> >         Q:      Starting when is the concept "phase velocity" meaningless?
> 
> If you can define it based on the contradictory quotes above, please
> enlighten us. 
> 
> 
> > 
> >         Q:      What prevents measurement of phase velocity?
> > 
> 
> Lack of a definition for the term meaningful to an experimenter with an
> oscilloscope.
> 
	See definition PVOD, above .......


> >         C:      Request for common sense.  Maybe there are some proerties
> > which are difficult or ambiguous or difficult to measure ... but THIS is
> > NOT one of them!
> 
> Great, John! Tell us! Tell us! What is phase velocity and how does one
> measure the phase velocity?
> 
	The definition is above, PV OD ....
	To measure PV in the long wire example one can use phase detector
.... and observe and record the time required.

> >         N:  There are many times in all walks of life a fundamental lack
> > of only one or a few aspects of some endeavor yields a skewed outlook.
> > One of my favorite sayings is something like:
> > 
> >         "You mean you can DO that?"
> > 
> >         The last time it came up was this situation:
> > 
> >         We had had an electronic board  go partly bad because the DC power
> > had been connected wrong polarity.  We did not have a low power issue
> > because it was powered from the 115 VAC line. I basically said "We don't
> > ever have to have this happen again.  We can wire it so no matter WHICH
> > way the power supply is hooked up, it will ALWAYS be correct."
> 
________________

	Any Ham Radio Operator Vos want to comment on this?

> A full wave bridge rectifier will do this? Pardon my French but "BS"!

		Using a Bridge to ensure polarity is a common trick.
	It tends to make the system idiot resistant.  If you can "afford"
the diode drop, it is fine.

	The Bridge is wired into the front end of the board to protect,
then if you call the AC terminals 1 and 2 and this is the "protected"
input .... no matter which way a DC power supply is connected to the
protected circuit the RESULTANT polarity at the protected board is always
correct.

> 
> >         One wag responded "You can't do that, it is impossible" ... now
> > key to this discussion, if this person's mind was ... 'if it is possible
> > to make things this way then EVERYTHING would be already wired so you
> > can'thook up backward.  And BECAUSE everything is NOT safe wired in this
> > manner it is obviously IMPOSSIBLE to do.'
> >         I simply put in a full wave bridge rectifier.
> 
> A full wave bridge rectifier will not convert a negative DC source into
> a positive DC source

	A full wave bridge can be wired to  "flip the polatity over" 

	HAM RADIO FOLKS: ... please comment?

. However it will prevent you from doing any damage
> if the source polarity is accidentally reversed. You can do the same
> thing with just ONE diode.  This does NOT mean that no matter which way
> you attach the source voltage it will ALWAYS BE CORRECT.
> 

	A bridge can be wired to do this....  the "AC" side of the bridge
is where the "unknown polarity" supply is connected...... the "DC"
terminals from the bridge are hooked to the power supply input leads of
the board you wish to protect  + to + and - to -   .........
	Hook it up on the bench with a polarity sensitive indicator like
an LED and see for your self..... it is kind og cool!


>   Now the social
> > result was interesting to me also:
> 
> >         The guy who said it was impossible was PISSED OFF and claimed it
> > was wrong to do this.
> >         Another guy was smiling and in winder and said "You can DO that?"

> :-) ONLY you, John! Us mere mortals can't think of a way to make a full
> wave bridge rectifier convert a positive DC source into a negative one,
> or vice versa... 

	Dang. man ..... this has nothing to do with mortal or not... it is
simply an old trick and the story is used to illustrate how, at times,
"fixed thinking" can tend to obscure common sense or get in the way of the
uptake of new thinking....

 > 
> >         In General:     Very important in vortex type research, in my
> > opinion, to educate yourself as fully as possible and raie your OWN RED
> > FLAG if you ever say "You can't di\o that" or ""Blh Bla can not be done."
> 
> 
> What is "vortex type research"? 
> 
	I dunno?  Good question ... For me it includes looking for new
thinking and methodology, processes and so forth that is unexpected, may
yield "UE" ... or an Unexpected source of Energy ...  Research which many
times tends to offend some vested in the status quo, such as Gravity
Modification, Vortex effects, odd ball signal processing ..

		TO VO:

		Q: What IS Vortex research?


> > ...
> >         Raise your own flag, go and do your own research and ask, of all
> > the people you respect, and those you don't, questions like
> >         "How do you measure phase velocity"
> 
> 
> OK, I'll bite: how do you measure the "velocity" of a "phase"?
> 
> Or is it the "Phase" of a "velocity"? 
> 

	See above definiion of PV OD
> > 
> >         CALL TO ARMS FOR VORTEX:
> 
> A call to arms? Are the redcoats coming? The white coats...? Dr.
> DeMento? 
> 
		It is a Battle ... of HUMOR ... which
	IS why the call me  'Johnny 'Umor' the Rebel ...
	AND
		ICE CREAM !!!!!  GOOD HUMOR

> 
> >         REQUEST OF ANY PARTICIPANTS, VORTEX OR NOT, CIRCULATE THE
> > QUESTIONS AND CHALLENGE:
> > 
> >         #1]     Q:      How do you measure phase velocity?
> >         #2]     Q:      Can you show unambiguously that it is impossible
> > to measure phase velocity?
> 
> First, please tell us your definition of the term "phase velocity". 
> 
	Up top.

> Do you mean how fast you can cause a phase shift from say 10 degrees to
> 20 degrees measured at one point on the circuit?
>   

------------

	Below ...	I like this one....Comment, please, Vor?


> Or do you mean if you cause a phase shift at one end of a 300 meter wire
> how long before the phase shift shows up at the other end?  
> 
> > ______________________________________
> >         Some general criteria .. which you can use... but it would also be
> > good to go beyond these criteria.
> > 
> >         a] a signal is a square, sine or triangle wave or arbitrary
> > waveform wave and rangesfrom approx. 500,000 cps to 10 meg cps
> 
> Ostrowski's definition of a "signal":
> 
> A signal is the transfer of unpredictable information across any
> distance.
> 
_______________________

	?

> All information transfer is the result of precoding. Both receiver and
> transmitter must agree on the meaning of tranferred data "bits". A bit
> is the smallest individual "particle" of information and is the binary
> state 1 or 0.
> 
	The above presumes a digital mond set.....


	I am an analog guy.

	How about  .... signal is above minimum signal to noise ratio by
some useful amount .... Say 3 to 6 dBel or more ....OK?


> Why don't we start HERE?
> 
> Jim O.
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 15 14:46:41 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Dieseling on Biomass-Water Slurries
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 15:42:56 -0700
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Where are you, Knuke?

I want to make a thinned puree of biomass and water(anything from cow dung
to sawdust comminuted to the micron range) and de-ashed by pressurizing the
CO2 from the engine exhaust (with an old air compressor) into a water tank
and using the Carbonic Acid solution to rinse the puree, thus in effect
de-ionizing and exchanging H+ for the cations K+, Ca++, Fe++, etc.

Then, the slurry will be pressurized to 50 psig or so, with a metering pump,
and fed up through a heat exchanger in the engine exhaust where it will be
heated to about 350-400 deg F.

The standard injectors will then be used to activate replacement biomass
slurry injectors which will allow the slurry to flash to steam and
essentially a dry highly combustible biomass powder and some combustible
gases in the cylinders.

Compression ignition and/or a small quantity of "pilot fuel" should do the
rest.

Should do well on green weeds, grass clippings, and leaves too.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 15 16:10:04 1999
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Got any of these around, Knuke?   :-)

FJS

 http://www.yanmar.com/frames45.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 15 18:22:12 1999
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Pons and Fleischman's CF Patent lapsed?
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-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Ostrowski
Subject: Re: Pons and Fleischman's CF Patent lapsed?


>Mike Carrell wrote:
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jim Ostrowski
>> Subject: Re: Pons and Fleischman's CF Patent lapsed?
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> >So do you think Pons and Fleischman were "bought off" (by the "system")
>> >to keep quiet about their discovery? Did they flee to escape the CIA,
>> >MIBS or something like that?
>>
>> Nothing like that. Pons got tired of the harassment by the physics
>> establishment here.
>
>Well, that makes a lot of sense. Upstarts getting quashed by the higher
>up Nay sayers...it's almost the same thing. Some don't cave in until
>they are visited by the CIA or the MIBS, but they all cave to pressure
>at some level sooner or later.
>
>> >I'm finding a similar pattern of obfuscation as demonstrated by the P&F
>> >article
>>
>> The quoted article about the patent is not obfuscation, just
>> misunderstanding by an ill-informed writer who did not use the precise
>> appropriate language.
>
>Little inaccuracies like that give people the wrong impresssion, just
>the same. First they think it was patented, therefore might have had
>some merit, but time proved otherwise so it really didn't.

Patents do not imply merit, only non-obvious conflict with prior art nor
blatant impossibility (perpetual motion and cold fusion -- but it was a
European patent, not constrained by the US ERAB findings). Patents are
basically licenses to sue and only defended or sold patents are of real
value.

The fact is
>the patent was never granted, therefore no one would touch it because
>they couldn't protect their investment interest. That's an entirely
>different story.


CETI, seeing potential constraint on their commercial ambitions protested
that the F&P application claims were too broad, and it was killed. Funds to
defend the patent were unavailable. CETI was once offered $15 million by
Motorola, and turned it down, thinking they could do better on their own.
They ran into problems of reproducibility they could not overcome with
available money, and so have sunk to a low level of activity.

>For the most part people become interested in things based on little
>articles like that, and will not bother to read long winded treatises on
>a subject that they are only marginally interested in. Like me, I am
>marginally interested in cold fusion progress, but I have the majority of
>my interests elsewhere. If something big were to break, that could
>change of course.
>
> I've been waiting around for that fusion powered rocket capable of
>propelling
>a space vehicle continuously at an acceleration of 1 g for two years...
>any hope in your opinion, Mike?

Don't hold your breath, keep breathing. People with very deep pockets are
interested in this sort of thing and have no illusions about the resources
necessary to produce it. But they need to see a clear demonstration of
basic, reproducible, achievement.
>
> The experiment is indeed hard to duplicate and it has
>> taken years to understand how to do it. It took F&P five years to pull it
>> off themselves, and they are expert electrochemists.
>>
>> >in the literature about the famous Michelson - Morely experiment
>> >and what exactly it proved.
>>
>> There have been a number of post mortems of the M-M experiment, which
>> indicate that it's failure to measure aether drift was due to incomplete
>> understanding of artifacts in the experimental setup. Other experiments
do
>> appear to measure absolute motion of the earth against a pervasive
aether.
>
>It always bothered me that when discussing the "velocity" of "light"
>propagation it seems that no one pays attention to the fact that em
>radiation in the monochrome, single frequency case goes faster or slower
>depending on the nanometer wl through various mediums. Trying to analyse
>the velocity of the hodgepodge of frequencies called "light" just
>confuses the issue.

There is no confusion about that point in the minds of people who work in
the field. What is always assumed as absolute for all observers is the
velocity of light in a vacuum. It is always different, and lower, in gases,
liquids, and solids. This was a starting postulate by Einstein for his
thought experiments. This assumption has been challenged by other theorists,
who can calculate the results of experiments seeming to validate the
constancy of the speed of light in a vacuum without using that particular
postulate.


Mike Carrell



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 00:14:55 1999
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Phase velocity
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John S. said:
        A brief lay description of phase velocity might go like this:

_______________  PHASE VELOCITY " OSCILLOSCOPE " DEFINITION ------
                ABBREVIATED    PVOD ____________________- 

        A periodic waveform is conveyed over a long wire.  A phase
distortion, of, say a nominal 40 degrees lead is introduced.  To say it
another way:  The periodic waveform is CW or Continuous Wave and has been
established on a long wire.  A 40 degree lead is introduced at one end,
abd the phase lead is sensed or detected at  the other end .... if the
phase lead takes 1 second to get to the end of a 1,000 mile wire, then the
phase velocity is 1,000 miles per second.
------------------------------------------------------------------
I reply:
This is NOT phase velocity. It is the velocity of a phase MODULATION on 
a wave. See below for definition of phase velocity.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Jim O. said:
>It appears that the term "phase velocity" is
>a meaningless concept because there is no way to measure or quantify
>phase velocity empirically.

------------------------------------------------------------------
I reply:
Phase velocity is the velocity with which a constant-phase point on a wave 
propagates. For example, let the wave be a sinusoid. In a uniform medium 
the wave appears as e.g.   sin 2*pi(f*t - x/L),    where t = time, x =
distance along the direction of interest, f = frequency, and L = wavelength. 
The phase velocity is  vp = L/f.  Both L and f can be measured. More
generally, a propagating wave can be written as e.g.   S(vp*t - x),  where S
is some signal quantity, e.g. voltage or current, and  (vp*t - x)  means that
it depends only on the variable   vp*t - x.  Any particular value of  vp*t -
x  is also a point of a particular phase. Notice that, as time advances, one
must move along  x  by the amount  vp*t   to stay at the same phase point. 
Therefore, vp is the velocity with which any phase point propagates along x.

Measurement of vp depends on what kind of wave you have and what equipment 
you have. One technique that is quite general is to set up the wave
propagation from a source to a termination. The termination is important,
because without it there are reflections. (With reflections there are two
waves, they interfere with each other and measurement gets complicated.)
Place two detectors, or tap off two signals via minimally perturbing
attenuators, at two positions along the wave path. Run the two signals along
two equal-length signal cables to an oscilloscope. The time difference
between a common phase point of each of the two signals is measured by the
oscilloscope. (A zero crossing is easiest to measure.) The distance between
the two detectors is known. The phase velocity is calculated by  (distance
between detectors)/(time delay). The big limitation of this method is that
oscilloscopes typically have less than 1% resolution. Their time bases are
often more than 1% in error, too. Therefore, very accurate measurements
cannot be made.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Jim O. further said:

Check out the site at :

   http://lal.cs.byu.edu/ketav/issue_3.2/Lumin/lumin.html

And tell me what you think. Particularly of the "Treaty of Shalimar"
Star Trek analogy and the two quotes from there below:

"Einstein causality rules out the propagation of any signal traveling
faster than light, but it does not limit the group velocity of
electromagnetic propagation." - Chaio "

"It was the phase velocity of the
radio waves that was moving faster than light, not the more physical
group velocity" - Nick Herbert "Faster than Light" 

>         Q:      Starting when is the concept "phase velocity" meaningless?

If you can define it based on the contradictory quotes above, please
enlighten us. 

------------------------------------------------------------------
I reply:
This site is not very scientific. The paper there seems to have been written
by some people based on what they have read. The references they give are
mostly not primary references, but other people commenting on the
faster-than-light issue. I didn't try to find Chaio's article to find out
what he/she might have been talking about. Don't pay much attention to this
site.

Let's instead take Einstein as Einstein wanted to be taken:  Einstein
causality rules out the propagation of any information-carrying signal
traveling faster than light. If the GROUP velocity is the velocity of 
a modulation that could be carrying information, then Einstein causality 
would say that that group velocity cannot exceed the velocity of light in 
vacuum.

===
Michael J. Schaffer


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 01:36:59 1999
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 <Pine.GSO.3.96.990815032149.10864B-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 03:31:54 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: See notes.. Request for common sense Pons and Fleischman
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[snip]

>>         We had had an electronic board  go partly bad because the DC power
>> had been connected wrong polarity.  We did not have a low power issue
>> because it was powered from the 115 VAC line. I basically said "We don't
>> ever have to have this happen again.  We can wire it so no matter WHICH
>> way the power supply is hooked up, it will ALWAYS be correct."
>
>A full wave bridge rectifier will do this? Pardon my French but "BS"!

***{I think what John has in mind is using a standard 4-diode bridge
rectifier just after the power input terminals of a DC board. Let's
designate the input terminals to the board as I1 and I2 and the output
terminals from the bridge to the rest of the board as O1 and O2. Now, if O1
is plus and O2 is minus under one way of connecting the DC power supply
leads to I1 and I2, then O1 will also be plus and O2 will be minus if the
DC power supply leads are connected up the opposite way. While this type of
rectifier is normally used to convert AC to DC, it can also be used the way
John is suggesting, and will indeed have the effect of idiot proofing the
polarity hookup. I think it is a neat idea, and should be standard practice
on all large and expensive boards/devices that are vulnerable to this type
of error. --Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

>
>Jim O.

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Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 03:31:00 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Elecromotive Force Series -- Re: yellow water
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>> >This is an example of a little knowledge being dangerous.
>>
>> ***{Dangerous? You really do need to stop reading those tabloid newspapers,
>> Ed. Those stories about people's heads exploding after they were proven
>> wrong are, well, wrong. (If you feel a headache coming on, take some
>> aspirin and e-mail me in the morning. ;-) --Mitchell Jones}***
>
>Dangerous for the truth, Mitchell.

***{Not so. I put forth my not-so-humble opinion in hopes that someone out
there will attempt to poke holes in it. Such interactions are an ideal way
to move toward the truth, and, as such, are not "dangerous" at all. --MJ}***

>
>> >The Electromotive Series gives the hypothetical EMF
>>
>> ***{According to my *Handbook*, the values are measured, not hypothetical.
>> For example, the authors comment that "The agreement of values given by
>> independent workers is not always good due to differences of surface
>> characteristics of electrodes. For difficulties met in measuring reversible
>> electrode potentials one is referred to texts as written by Latimer and by
>> Bockris." --MJ}***
>
>The values are hypothetical because they are based upon an arbitrary condition
>which may not be achievable in the real world

***{The fact that the values in question are measured is proof positive
that the conditions have been achieved in the real world, and, thus, that
they are achievable in the real world. --MJ}***

 and describe half reactions which
>are always coupled in the real world to another reaction.

***{This is a theoretical stipulation which, if treated carelessly, can
lead to incorrect conclusions. The fact that, *in theory*, each forward
reaction may be said to be coupled with a corresponding reverse reaction,
does not alter the fact that there are cases where one of the paired
reactions occurs at such a vanishingly low rate as to be negligible. Since
we are talking about whether the reduction of ferric iron to ferrous due to
the bubbling of hydrogen into tap water can produce the yellow coloration
which Scott observed, it is required that the reaction take place at a
significant rate. Akira, using reasoning that I find convincing, argued
that it would not, and you cannot overcome his argument by merely pointing
out that, *in theory*, the reaction must occur. Suppose, for example, that
the reaction in question does, in fact, occur, but that Scott would have to
bubble hydrogen through for 10,000 years before the water became noticeably
yellow. In that case, despite the fact that the reaction is occurring at a
low ebb, it *cannot* be the explanation for what Scott observed. --Mitchell
Jones}***

 But, excuse me for
>introducing this trivial concept into the discussion.

***{Unlax, Doc. There's no money at stake here. --MJ}***

>>
>>  of a cell in which the
>> >components are in their standard states.  This means the gases are at 1
>> >atm and
>> >the ions are at a 1 molar concentration.
>>
>> ***{Temperature, which you did not mention, obviously needs to be
>> specified, since metals in solution lose electrons more easily as
>> temperature rises, irrespective of the potential difference across the
>> cell. That's why, in the 40th edition *Handbook*, the temperature is
>> specified to be 25 deg. C for the listing of oxidation potentials that is
>> given. However, I fail to see the relevance of pressure or molar
>> concentration, since neither value will alter the electromotive force
>> required to pull an electron off of a metallic atom/ion in the solution.
>> Logically, at a given temperature, the metallic atoms/ions can be arranged
>> into a series in the decreasing order of the electromotive force required
>> to strip off their outer electrons, and that series will be the same
>> *irrespective* of variations in irrelevant parameters such as pressure or
>> molar concentration. Moreover, this is the explicit view of the authors of
>> the *Handbook*, who on pg. 3089 define "electromotive series" as follows:
>>
>> "[The] electromotive series is a list of the metals arranged in the
>> decreasing order of their tendencies to pass into ionic form by losing
>> electrons."
>>
>> What possible purpose would be served by publishing such a list, if the
>> order varied depending on the pressure and the molarity of the solutions?
>>
>> According to Akira, one of the purposes of making such a list available is
>> to enable a person to decide what types of reactions are permitted and what
>> types are not. Such an application was apparently taught to him in high
>> school chemistry, assuming that he did not hallucinate the whole thing. And
>> the list would obviously not be useful for such a purpose if the order
>> varied depending on pressure and molarity, as you imply.
>
>I'm sorry, Mitchell, the values do depend on pressure and concentration as
>well as
>temperature. This is why each is fixed in such a list. Please consult any
>physical chemistry text for more information.

***{You may have been right to dispute the conclusion that I reached in my
earlier post (when I agreed with Akira), but your way of arguing is
essentially a wild goose chase. The error, if any, does not lie in the
reasoning I used (to conclude that the reduction of Fe+++ to Fe++ would not
be accomplished by bubbling hydrogen into a solution), but rather in my way
of interpreting the listing of oxidation potentials that I found in my
*Handbook*.

The problem, I think, is that I interpreted the oxidation potentials as
indicators of the degree to which the listed metallic solutes were
*resistant* to giving up an electron, when, in fact, they may very well be
indicators of the *tendency* of those metallic solutes to give up
electrons. After all, when a metallic solute gives up an electron, it is
said to undergo oxidation. Thus "oxidation potential" may very well mean
"oxidation tendency" rather than "oxidation resistance." If so, then the
very same reasoning that I originally used to conclude that reduction of
ferric iron to ferrous (by hydrogen) is *prohibited* would, under the new
interpretation, imply that it is *mandatory*.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>>
>>   The reaction H2(1atm) =2H+ + 2e is taken
>> >as having an EMF of 0.000 as an arbitrary reference value.
>> >The reaction Fe++ =Fe+++ + e has a value of -0.7477.  Thus, the reaction
>> >H2 + 2Fe+++ = 2H+ + 2Fe++
>> >would have a voltage of +0.7477 if the H2 were at 1 atm and the ions
>>were at 1
>> >molar.
>>
>> ***{At room temperature, the iron reduction side of the above alleged
>> equilibrium reaction strikes me as absurd. That absurdity can be
>> highlighted by inserting a middle step into the reaction, as follows:
>>
>>  H2 + 2Fe+++ --> 2H+ + 2e- + 2Fe+++ --> 2H+ + 2Fe++
>>
>> Why, in the in-between step, would the two electrons go to the ferric iron?
>> Remember: according to the electromotive force series, the pull from the
>> 2H+ is .7 volts stronger than that of the 2Fe+++. Thus to suppose that the
>> above is possible is to suppose that the electrons accelerate in a
>> direction *opposite* that indicated by the forces acting on them, in
>> violation of Newton's second law of motion. If Newton's 2nd law doesn't
>> apply here, why not?
>
>No electrons are being "pulled".

***{Of course they are: they abandon their association with one metallic
solute and attach themselves to another because the attraction of the
latter is stronger than that of the former. --MJ}***

The voltages are not actually present in the
>system. They exist only when an electrochemical cell is constructed using the
>half reactions.

***{True, but the issue is whether those voltages measure the resistance of
the metallic solutes to losing electrons, or measure their inclination to
lose electrons. If the former, as I originally thought, then the reduction
of ferric iron to ferrous, in Scott's situation, would occur at a
negligible rate, and could not account for the observed yellow coloration.
If the latter, as I am now inclined to believe, then such a reduction would
occur at a significant rate, and could account for the result that he
observed. In either case, that property which they measure is actually
present in Scott's system--which means: each of the metallic solutes in his
tap water exhibits a specific tendency to lose electrons and a specific
resistance to losing them. The only question is whether the voltages in the
list of oxidation potentials measure the tendency to lose electrons, or
measure resistance to losing them. --Mitchell Jones}***

 Instead, think of the voltages as being equivalent to values for
>the Gibbs Free Energy, the basic driving force of a chemical reaction.  The
>electrons go where a lower Gibbs energy can be achieved.  The "hypothetical"
>voltages only serve to show how the Gibbs Energy can be minimized.

***{Why do you continue to say that? As I pointed out previously, the
*Handbook* says they are actual voltages that were measured under very
specific circumstances, and, as such, are in no sense "hypothetical."
--Mitchell Jones}***

>>
>> The only counter-argument I can come up with is simply that these reactions
>> occur during moments when the particles are in collision. That means the
>> three particles specified in the middle step, above, would be in very close
>> proximity to one another, and it is possible that collision forces--due to
>> kinetic energy, and, hence, to temperature--might briefly predominate over
>> the Coulomb forces. Result: I can imagine that during some of the
>> collisions, due to chance, an e- and an Fe+++ might rebound in roughly the
>> same direction, allowing the Fe+++ to briefly capture the e-. (It would, of
>> course, lose it again almost instantly, due to a subsequent collision with
>> an H+ ion--which would be plentiful in Scott's solution.)
>
>The mechanism of a chemical reaction is not important in deciding whether it
>occurs.  Such information is only useful when calculating its rate.  Chemical
>reactions, given enough time, will go to the lowest energy state.  In this
>case,
>the reduction of Fe+++ to Fe++.

***{Yes, but if the values in the table of oxidation potentials are to be
interpreted as measuring the resistance of the metallic solutes to giving
up electrons, then since H --> H+ + e is higher on the list than Fe+++ -->
Fe++ + e, the H will almost never give up its electron to the Fe+++, and
the reduction will occur at a very low rate. In that case, it might take
10,000 years for enough Fe++ to accumulate to give a detectible yellowish
coloration to the solution.

On the other hand, if the values in the table of oxidation potentials are
to be interpreted as measuring the inclination of the metallic solutes to
give up electrons, then the fact that H is above Fe+++ means the H will
readily hand over its electron, thereby reducing the Fe+++ to Fe++. Bottom
line: the type of reasoning that Akira was using does, in fact, give
information about reaction rates. The problem is that to use it properly,
one needs to know what "oxidation potential" really means. At this point I
am merely guessing about that. I will not know for sure until I find a
concrete example describing how these potentials are measured. Thus far, I
haven't succeeded in doing that.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>>
>> Unfortunately, such a counter-argument merely defines a possibility, not a
>> fact. To convert it into a fact, we would either need a quantitative
>> calculation demonstrating that collision forces do, in fact, dominate over
>> coulomb forces during collisions at 25 deg. C, or else we would need a
>> reference to a specific experiment in which reduction of ferric iron to
>> ferrous by means of hydrogen occurs at 25 deg C or less.
>>
>> In pursuit of the latter possibility, I discovered that if steam is passed
>> through a tube containing *red hot* iron filings, we get:
>>
>> 3Fe (red hot) + 4H2O --> Fe3O4 + 4H2.
>>
>> Moreover, the above reaction is reversible. If we pass hydrogen gas over
>> equally hot iron oxide in a tube, steam comes out the other end, leaving
>> metallic iron in the tube, as follows:
>>
>>  Fe3O4 + 4H2 --> 3Fe (red hot) + 4H2O (superheated steam)
>>
>> I don't know the temperature of red hot iron offhand, but I would guess 600
>> deg. C. That means the reduction side of this reaction, practically
>> speaking, is not going to occur at room temperature--precisely as Akira
>> concluded in his analysis.
>
>You state that H2 is able to reduce mixed valence iron (i.e. Fe++ + Fe+++)
>to pure
>iron.  A high temperature of 600° is only required to give a reasonable
>rate, not
>to cause the reaction.

***{But if the rate is vanishingly small at room temperature--as in Scott's
situation--then it might take 10,000 years to produce a yellow coloration.
Thus the fact that the reaction goes well at 600 deg. C. is insufficient to
render your explanation viable. --MJ}***

  In other words, you agree with my conclusion.

***{Yes, at this point I tend to agree that Scott may be seeing the
reduction of ferric iron to ferrous, but only because I now suspect that
"oxidation potential" refers to the *inclination* of a metallic solute to
give up electrons. Nothing you have said thus far has convinced me that the
approach which Akira used was invalid. His high school chemistry teacher,
it seems to me, was onto something. I just think that, in the ensuing
decades, the details faded a bit in Akira's mind, that's all. In spite of
that, he retained the logical essence of the idea, and I continue to regard
it as worthwhile, despite your arguments to the contrary. It strikes me as
a useful, commonsensical way to estimate whether a reaction is likely to
go, without having to immerse oneself in arcane mathematics. (Don't get me
wrong: I love math, and I appreciate the math that you have posted here;
but I also love short cuts that allow me to assess a situation without
doing a lot of complex calculations.) --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>> Thus the kind of reasoning he used applies very
>> well to this situation, and indicates that it is *very* unlikely that Scott
>> Little's "yellow water" is due to the reduction of ferric iron by hydrogen.
>>
>> And, by the way, thus far it is also *pure assumption* on your part that
>> such a reduction, if it were to occur, would turn water yellow. Do you
>> actually know of a specific ferrous compound  of iron that, if present in
>> water, will give it a yellow coloration?
>
>Most soluble salts of ferrous iron give a yellow solution.  In this case, you
>could view the iron being associated with Cl-.
>
>> >For other concentrations, the equation  E = Eo -(RT/nF) ln (ap/ar),  where
>> >ap and
>> >ar are the activities of the products and reactants, respectively and Eo
>> >is the
>> >standard potential as noted above. Each activity is raised to the power
>>of its
>> >coefficient in the equilibrium equation.
>> >
>> >The equilibrium constant for the above reaction can be obtained from
>> >
>> >Eo = RT/nF ln K  where K = ((H+)^2 * (Fe++)^2)/(PH2) * (Fe+++)^2).
>> >
>> >Substituting values we get:  .7477 = .05915/2 ln K  or  K = 10^(29.04)
>>or K =
>> >1.09 * 10^29
>> >
>> >As you can see, when H2 at 1 atm is in equilibrium with a mixture of
>>Fe++ and
>> >Fe+++. the concentration of Fe++ will be much higher than that of Fe+++.
>> >Therefore, Fe+++ will be reduced to Fe++ as I suggested.
>>
>> ***{In essence, you are simply *assuming* that both Fe+++ + H --> Fe++ + H+
>> and Fe++ + H+ --> Fe+++ + H are bona fide reactions at room temperature.
>
>I assume Fe+++ is in the water and I assume the proposed reaction to be fast
>enough for Scott to see an effect.

***{So you concede that you are assuming that which is to be proven, right?
:-) --MJ}***

 I do not have to assume the proposed reaction
>is possible. The tabulated EMF values show this to be true.

***{Yes, they wouldn't list the reaction Fe+++ --> Fe++ + e if it were
impossible. However, the fact that it is possible does *not* mean it goes
at a rate sufficient to produce a yellow coloration in Scott's lifetime.
--MJ}***

>>
>> Given that assumption, then we obviously have an equilibrium situation.
>> Result: as the concentration of H2 in the solution is progressively
>> increased, the number of Fe++ ions will increase as necessary to move the
>> solution back toward equilibrium. (According to the so called "law of mass
>> action," the speed of a chemical reaction is proportional to the product of
>> the concentrations of the reacting particles.) Thus if the iron reduction
>> side of the reaction is possible at room temperature, then as more and more
>> hydrogen is bubbled into the solution, the rate of ferric iron reduction
>> will increase, resulting in a buildup of ferrous iron in the solution.
>
>No, the amount of bubbling does not change the rate.  Once the solution is
>saturated with dissolved H2. the reaction rate will be constant.

***{A distinction without a difference: if the bubbling changes the rate
until the solution is saturated, then the bubbling changes the rate. Q.E.D.
--MJ}***

 Obviously, the
>amount of Fe+++, if it is present at all, is small.  Therefore, very little H2
>will be required, probably no more than  can be dissolved in the solution
>initially.  Continued bubbling only serves to keep the fixed amount of H2
>within
>the solution.

***{However you slice it, it comes out the same: the bubbling will
initially serve to increase the rate of the reaction. Q.E.D. --MJ}***

>
>>
>> The question is, how do you know your assumption is true? Akira argued,
>> based on a plausible interpretation of the electromotive series, that the
>> reaction H2 + 2Fe+++ --> 2H+ + 2Fe++ is forbidden here--i.e., that for
>> practical purposes it cannot happen at room temperature. Thus far, despite
>> your Olympian pronouncement to the contrary and your irrelevant
>> mathematical scribblings, you have supplied not an iota of evidence that he
>> is wrong.
>
>Mitchell, your failure to understand even the most elementary chemistry

***{A massive exaggeration if ever there was one. You do yourself no good
when you make such statements. --MJ}***

and
>especially your arrogance in maintaining your viewpoints

***{A man who maintains a position until he is convinced that it is wrong
is not arrogant; he is simply a person whom you cannot intimidate. Bluff,
bluster, condescension, and all the other common tricks do not work against
him. If you want to win, you have to win on the merits, and you would be
well advised to get used to that state of affairs. --Mitchell Jones}***

makes any effort to
>educate impossible.

***{I regard these sorts of interactions as a learning tool, not as an
educational tool. By confronting your arguments, analyzing them, and
hitting the books as necessary, I improve my understanding. You have the
opportunity to learn also, by confronting my arguments, analyzing them, and
hitting the books as well. However, whether you do that is your choice, not
mine, and is not a matter with which I am concerned. If you regard your
posts as attempts to "educate" me--i.e., to cause me to agree with
you--rather than as efforts to improve your own understanding, then your
focus is all wrong. You are no more responsible for what I take out of
these discussions than I am responsible for what you take out of them.
--Mitchell Jones}***

Please read a text book on the subject!

***{I have looked through several already, searching for a concrete example
of the process by which oxidation potentials are measured. When I find one,
or obtain enough information to cobble one together myself, I will post it
here. It is a fascinating topic. I must add, however, that whether or not I
hit the books is not something you ought to be fretting about. You should
concern yourself with what you can get out of these sorts of exchanges, not
with what others are getting out of them. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Ed Storms

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 03:39:21 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Yellow Water & Ionic Conduction in a High-Pressure D2-Noble Gas Mix?
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Edmund,

Could  Scott's "Yellow Water" effect, where he sparged H2 into tapwater,
be due to; H2 + H2O<---> H3O+  +   H- which would change the oxidation
states of the Fe yielding the yellow color?

If so, wouldn't a mix of D2, D2O and Ar, Kr, or Xe under high pressure
give, D2 + D2O (vapor)<---> D3O+  +  D- allowing ionic conduction
in a "dry" gas mix?

Regards,     Frederick

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Subject: Re: See notes.. Request for common sense Pons and Fleischman
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	Thanks for saying that a different way.... John

On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Mitchell Jones wrote:

> [snip]
> 
> >>         We had had an electronic board  go partly bad because the DC power
> >> had been connected wrong polarity.  We did not have a low power issue
> >> because it was powered from the 115 VAC line. I basically said "We don't
> >> ever have to have this happen again.  We can wire it so no matter WHICH
> >> way the power supply is hooked up, it will ALWAYS be correct."
> >
> >A full wave bridge rectifier will do this? Pardon my French but "BS"!
> 
> ***{I think what John has in mind is using a standard 4-diode bridge
> rectifier just after the power input terminals of a DC board. Let's
> designate the input terminals to the board as I1 and I2 and the output
> terminals from the bridge to the rest of the board as O1 and O2. Now, if O1
> is plus and O2 is minus under one way of connecting the DC power supply
> leads to I1 and I2, then O1 will also be plus and O2 will be minus if the
> DC power supply leads are connected up the opposite way. While this type of
> rectifier is normally used to convert AC to DC, it can also be used the way
> John is suggesting, and will indeed have the effect of idiot proofing the
> polarity hookup. I think it is a neat idea, and should be standard practice
> on all large and expensive boards/devices that are vulnerable to this type
> of error. --Mitchell Jones}***
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >
> >Jim O.
> 

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Subject: Re: Phase velocity
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	Dear Vo. and Michael,

	To Mike:  does this mean the velocity of a phase modulation cannot
exceed C, in or on, say, a long wire?  To be more specific, if the
creation of a phase distortion and subsequent detection on, say, a long
wire were measured ... is it possible to exceed C?  If the phase
distortion were modulated, say by music from a source not directly under
the experimenter's control, such as a public radio broadcast does this
constitute a violation if it goes faster than C?

			JHS

On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Michael Schaffer wrote:

> John S. said:
>         A brief lay description of phase velocity might go like this:
> 
> _______________  PHASE VELOCITY " OSCILLOSCOPE " DEFINITION ------
>                 ABBREVIATED    PVOD ____________________- 
> 
>         A periodic waveform is conveyed over a long wire.  A phase
> distortion, of, say a nominal 40 degrees lead is introduced.  To say it
> another way:  The periodic waveform is CW or Continuous Wave and has been
> established on a long wire.  A 40 degree lead is introduced at one end,
> abd the phase lead is sensed or detected at  the other end .... if the
> phase lead takes 1 second to get to the end of a 1,000 mile wire, then the
> phase velocity is 1,000 miles per second.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> I reply:
> This is NOT phase velocity. It is the velocity of a phase MODULATION on 
> a wave. See below for definition of phase velocity.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Jim O. said:
> >It appears that the term "phase velocity" is
> >a meaningless concept because there is no way to measure or quantify
> >phase velocity empirically.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> I reply:
> Phase velocity is the velocity with which a constant-phase point on a wave 
> propagates. For example, let the wave be a sinusoid. In a uniform medium 
> the wave appears as e.g.   sin 2*pi(f*t - x/L),    where t = time, x =
> distance along the direction of interest, f = frequency, and L = wavelength. 
> The phase velocity is  vp = L/f.  Both L and f can be measured. More
> generally, a propagating wave can be written as e.g.   S(vp*t - x),  where S
> is some signal quantity, e.g. voltage or current, and  (vp*t - x)  means that
> it depends only on the variable   vp*t - x.  Any particular value of  vp*t -
> x  is also a point of a particular phase. Notice that, as time advances, one
> must move along  x  by the amount  vp*t   to stay at the same phase point. 
> Therefore, vp is the velocity with which any phase point propagates along x.
> 
> Measurement of vp depends on what kind of wave you have and what equipment 
> you have. One technique that is quite general is to set up the wave
> propagation from a source to a termination. The termination is important,
> because without it there are reflections. (With reflections there are two
> waves, they interfere with each other and measurement gets complicated.)
> Place two detectors, or tap off two signals via minimally perturbing
> attenuators, at two positions along the wave path. Run the two signals along
> two equal-length signal cables to an oscilloscope. The time difference
> between a common phase point of each of the two signals is measured by the
> oscilloscope. (A zero crossing is easiest to measure.) The distance between
> the two detectors is known. The phase velocity is calculated by  (distance
> between detectors)/(time delay). The big limitation of this method is that
> oscilloscopes typically have less than 1% resolution. Their time bases are
> often more than 1% in error, too. Therefore, very accurate measurements
> cannot be made.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Jim O. further said:
> 
> Check out the site at :
> 
>    http://lal.cs.byu.edu/ketav/issue_3.2/Lumin/lumin.html
> 
> And tell me what you think. Particularly of the "Treaty of Shalimar"
> Star Trek analogy and the two quotes from there below:
> 
> "Einstein causality rules out the propagation of any signal traveling
> faster than light, but it does not limit the group velocity of
> electromagnetic propagation." - Chaio "
> 
> "It was the phase velocity of the
> radio waves that was moving faster than light, not the more physical
> group velocity" - Nick Herbert "Faster than Light" 
> 
> >         Q:      Starting when is the concept "phase velocity" meaningless?
> 
> If you can define it based on the contradictory quotes above, please
> enlighten us. 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> I reply:
> This site is not very scientific. The paper there seems to have been written
> by some people based on what they have read. The references they give are
> mostly not primary references, but other people commenting on the
> faster-than-light issue. I didn't try to find Chaio's article to find out
> what he/she might have been talking about. Don't pay much attention to this
> site.
> 
> Let's instead take Einstein as Einstein wanted to be taken:  Einstein
> causality rules out the propagation of any information-carrying signal
> traveling faster than light. If the GROUP velocity is the velocity of 
> a modulation that could be carrying information, then Einstein causality 
> would say that that group velocity cannot exceed the velocity of light in 
> vacuum.
> 
> ===
> Michael J. Schaffer
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
> 

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From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ca-ois.com>
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Subject: Re: Help from Vos, please . Request for common sense P and F
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John Schnurer wrote:
>
> > (snip)
> >
> > >  Jim Ostrowski wrote:
> >
> > > > I'm finding a similar pattern of obfuscation as demonstrated by the P&F
> > > > article in the literature about the famous Michelson - Morely experiment
> > > > and what exactly it proved.
> > > > It appears that the term "phase velocity" is
> > > > a meaningless concept because there is no way to measure or quantify
> > > > phase velocity empirically.
> > >
> > >         Q:      What?
> > >
> >
> > This is according to scientists who cannot even define the term in some
> > way meaningful to an experimenter with an oscilloscope. Check out the
> > site at :
> >
> 
> > http://lal.cs.byu.edu/ketav/issue_3.2/Lumin/lumin.html
> 
>         I do not have www access. 

Are you on a unix based academic system? Most of these have LYNX btowser
text based web access. Try typing in "LYNX" after you log on and see
what happens. 

Are you using "pine" or "tin" for your mail reader access? If that's
what you have than more than likely you are on a unix system. I actually
prefer LYNX to the cumbersomne NETSCAPE or MSIE browsers.

  So I cannot say if the site above is
> grand or poor. 
>         A brief lay description of phase velocity might go like this:
> 
> _______________  PHASE VELOCITY " OSCILLOSCOPE " DEFINITION -------
>                 ABBREVIATED    PVOD ____________________-
> 
>         A periodic waveform is conveyed over a long wire.  A phase
> distortion, of, say a nominal 40 degrees lead is introduced.  To say it
> another way:  The periodic waveform is CW or Continuous Wave and has been
> established on a long wire.  A 40 degree lead is introduced at one end,
> abd the phase lead is sensed or detected at  the other end .... if the
> phase lead takes 1 second to get to the end of a 1,000 mile wire, then the
> phase velocity is 1,000 miles per second.
> 

OK. This is called phase "modulation" where I come from (technician
level courses in EM and the ARRL Radio Amateur's Handbook, 1095
edition).  Modulation implies a signal, a velocity measurement does not
necessarily imply a signal conveying any meaningful information.  

I have nerver read where Phase Modulated signals propagate across a
distance any faster than c velocity but if you think it does then I
would like to hear why.  

The problem is how are you going to synchronise two clocks separated by
a distance long enough to distinguish the delay time?  If you recall my
discussion with physicist Michael Schaffer many many months back a loop
of long wire is not good enough to prove ftl signalling, due to the
possibility of shortpathing.  

I think the ideal test for what I call "signal" velocity which may be
practical is a simple "drag" race between a known c velocity propagating
signal and your test signal, however the loop is good for starters to
see if you are at least justified in the extra effort required for the
drag race.

> > "Einstein causality rules out the propagation of any signal traveling
> > faster than light, but it does not limit the group velocity of
> > electromagnetic propagation." - Chaio "
> >
> > "It was the phase velocity of the
> > radio waves that was moving faster than light, not the more physical
> > group velocity" - Nick Herbert "Faster than Light"
> >
>         I don't have any great comment of the TV show, I like to watch it
> with my daughter.

 I was more interested in your comment on the statements that I quoted
(above by respected physicists who are supposed to be experts) , which
to me appear contradictory.

The Treaty of Shalimar analogy goes as follows (pasted from the site): 

"Assume for instance that the Klingons and the Federation sign a treaty
in which the Klingons promise peace in exchange for access to the
Federation's Technical Information Database (TID). The Federation leaves
to take the
 treaty back to their home world at a speed of .6c. This gives the
Klingons time to access the TID and develop a faster-than-light ship
called the
 "slaughtering Super". They then send the Super in pursuit of the
Federation ship of negotiators. As it travels toward the ship, it
destroys two
bases along the way. These bases try to warn the ship, but of course any
signal that they have can only travel at the speed of light which the
Super
easily outruns. The Super then gets to the negotiator's ship and
destroys it,
 destroying all evidence of any treaty and throwing the Klingon nation
and the Federation back into war. "
 
 The problem comes in when one looks at this sequence of events from the
 Federation's point of view. If one uses the correct equations to switch
all of these events into their frame of reference, then the negotiators
sign the treaty at Shalimar, and take off. The next event that they see
is
their own destruction. If they had remained alive after this, they would
have
 next seen event 2, then event 1, and then watched the Super be
 disassembled. They would have seen the pieces of base number 2 gather
 together and form back into a base as the Super traveled backwards
through space to its creation where it would have been taken apart and
destroyed by the Klingons."
 
 Scientists concluded from arguments like this that there is a basic Law
of Causality which states that if A and B are two events which are
causally related (A causes B) there will be no frame of reference in
which B
happens before A. There can not be a slaughtering Super, or from the
Federation's point of view, it would destroy the Federation ship before
it was even
created."

Do you see anything wrong with the logic used in the above analogy?

> 
> > >         N:  There are many times in all walks of life a fundamental lack
> > > of only one or a few aspects of some endeavor yields a skewed outlook.
> > > One of my favorite sayings is something like:
> > >
> > >         "You mean you can DO that?"
> > >
> > >         The last time it came up was this situation:
> > >
> > >         We had had an electronic board  go partly bad because the DC power
> > > had been connected wrong polarity.  We did not have a low power issue
> > > because it was powered from the 115 VAC line. I basically said "We don't
> > > ever have to have this happen again.  We can wire it so no matter WHICH
> > > way the power supply is hooked up, it will ALWAYS be correct."
> >
> ________________
> 

You are correct about the full wawve bridge...I see now what you were
saying. Sorry for the nagative feedback. From your description of the
setup I assumed a ground always at negative and common to both the power
supply and the circuit, therefore if you applied a  positive voltage at
this ground point and the negative to your full wave bridge, the two
diodes at the input point would just block the current flow. 

(snip)

>
> 
> > Ostrowski's definition of a "signal":
> >
> > A signal is the transfer of unpredictable information across any
> > distance.
> >
> _______________________
> 
>         ?

Does the question mark indicate that you do not understand my statement? 

> 
> > All information transfer is the result of precoding. Both receiver and
> > transmitter must agree on the meaning of tranferred data "bits". A bit
> > is the smallest individual "particle" of information and is the binary
> > state 1 or 0.
> >
>         The above presumes a digital mond set.....

In the elemental, this is just basic logic giving us the requirements
that will enable us to say that we have sent something that is
definitively a signal. If there is a phase shift that appears at a
specified time after a "start" bit, we can call that 1 or High, if the
Phase shift does NOT appear at the specified time after the "start bit"
we can call that 0 or low. 

You must have a start bit in order to tell the reciever when to start
counting time. A start bit is 1 when the "carrier" low, and is 0 when
the "carrier" is high. This is the digital analog of modulation and is
the basis of digital to analog interfacing.

1 = H = true
0 = L = false    

> 
>         I am an analog guy.

It helps to be a little of both but I don't think any of the above is
all that over your head, John.

> 
>         How about  .... signal is above minimum signal to noise ratio by
> some useful amount .... Say 3 to 6 dBel or more ....OK?
> 

The above would be a what they call it when you use the word you are
trying to define in the definition itself.... sorry, NOT acceptable. 

What is that word for it when one does that? Dam I must be getting
Alzheimer's prematurely.

Jim O.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 08:41:05 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Dieseling on Biomass-Water Slurries
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:43:20 -0400
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Hi Fred!

I've been jumping around in my reading, and missed this until just now.  The
idea sounds pretty good, although the problems that I see with biomass are
along the lines of the amount of preprocessing that is necessary to make the
end product "mechanically" nice enough or refined enough to go through the
engine in reliable fashion.  It's been done, I've read about it, but I've
never done it.  The type of injectors that are on the Jimmi 6-71 series for
example, are very intolerant of water.  The act of squeezing the water
through the injector tip usually will blow the tip apart due to the
expansion of water into steam.  I'm sure there are better injectors however,
that would be more suitable to this kind fuel that would allow the existing
engines to be used.  I think that the Gunnerman A-55 fuel probably gets
around the need for modification by chemically binding the water to the fuel
so that it comes out of the injectors in fine droplets like it normally
would with diesel.  There would probably need to be some modification or
streamlining to the exhaust as well to keep the unburned stuff from clogging
up the works.

I saw that Clinton just signed a bill tripling the amount of research
funding for Biomass Fuels.  I don't know enough about it to give an expert
answer, but in general, I think it is not the solution to our longterm
energy needs.  The article that I read said that the biomass fuels burn
cleaner, which you could say was a good thing, but compared to diesel,
almost anything burns cleaner.:)  My energy related reading lately, has been
on the electrostatic collectors, solar activated, thermally activated, and
ZPE activated solid state electron transfer devices, along with, of course,
the CF/LENR/CANR approaches.  Things that don't smoke, and that I don't have
to pay for on a subscription basis.  I think Clinton sees the "renewable
energy" thing as a good financial marriage between the agricultural industry
and the oil refining industry that will appease the environmentalists.  I
would say that all financial marriages are somewhat less than holy, of
course.:) 

I know you spent a great deal of time working on the biomass concepts, and I
immediately thought of you when I read this article, but I personally think
that left over agricultural materials should be composted or processed to be
used best as future fertilizers instead of the mixture of diabolical junk
that is force fed to us by the likes of Dow Chemical and the Monsanto
Corporation.  There are other, more progressive uses for ag products, like
organic polymers and construction materials, insulation and so forth, as
well.  Corn stalks and husks, bamboo, and numerous other types of unused
plant material could be used for paper and fiber production instead of wood
and cotton.

People are being sold by the media on the ideas of biomass fuels and methane
clathrate mining etc., and are being told that we have to make these changes
because we are running out of fuel.  While this is true of coal and oil, I
don't think that the solution is to switch to yet another combustable.  I
think, in general, that the less stuff we burn the better.  I also think
that, since we are already living in an inexhaustable supply of energy that
completely surrounds us and is nontoxic, that paying someone by the gallon
for a poisonous liquid that they made in a centralized processing facility
is illogical.  The same holds for electricity production and distribution.
When people finally wake up and this idea finally penetrates their boney
brain buckets, the world might start seeing through the haze of this
financial fog of confusion that has surrounded the energy issue, as well as,
so many other issues of vitality.

>Where are you, Knuke?

On Gravity's Rainbow! :)

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 08:48:43 1999
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Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:48:32 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: Re: Yellow Water & Ionic Conduction in a High-Pressure D2-Noble Gas Mix?
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

> Edmund,
>
> Could  Scott's "Yellow Water" effect, where he sparged H2 into tapwater,
> be due to; H2 + H2O<---> H3O+  +   H- which would change the oxidation
> states of the Fe yielding the yellow color?

The reaction you cite is endothermic, hence will not go spontaneously,
hence the concentration of products will be much less than the
concentration of reactants.   For a reaction to produce a significant
concentration of products, there must be a reduction is Gibbs free energy.
The Gibbs energy of a reaction can be obtained by adding up the individual
Gibbs energies of formation for the various reactants and products, values
of which can be found in reference books.  Once the ability of a reaction
to occur has been established, the actual rate must then be considered,
which is a more difficult prediction to make.

All of this means that some D3O+ may form but the amount would be too small
to measure and too small to produce the effect you seek  However, such
reactions are seen when the gas is bombarded with electrons, thereby
providing the required energy.

Ed Storms

>
>
> If so, wouldn't a mix of D2, D2O and Ar, Kr, or Xe under high pressure
> give, D2 + D2O (vapor)<---> D3O+  +  D- allowing ionic conduction
> in a "dry" gas mix?
>
> Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 09:14:12 1999
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Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:54:32 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Oxidation Potentials
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I finally found a definitive answer to my question about the interpretation
of oxidation potentials. Here, from the text of the chemistry course that I
took as a college freshman in 1960, is the relevant comment: "The magnitude
of the oxidation potential is a measure of the ease with which a given
metal is oxidized." [*Fundamentals of College Chemistry*, by King and
Caldwell, 3rd edition, American Book Company, New York, 1959, pg. 438]

The implication is that H2, with an oxidation potential of zero, gives up
electrons more easily than Fe++, which has an oxidation potential of -
.771, and thus hydrogen will, in fact, act to reduce Fe+++ to Fe++, as Ed
Storms originally said. This process can be highlighted by the following 4
stage reaction:

 H2 + 2Fe+++ --> 2H+ + 2e- + 2Fe+++ -->  2(H)+ + 2e- + 2(Fe++)+ --> 2H+ + 2Fe++

In the third step, above, I have placed parens in such a way as to indicate
that H+ is just an H that is short an electron, and Fe+++ is just an Fe++
that is short an electron. Since the oxidation number of the H is higher,
its attraction for an electron is weaker than that of an Fe++, and in the
tug of war between them, the Fe++ will win. Conclusion: Fe+++ will undergo
reduction in the presence of hydrogen.

How odd that, as a freshman physics major in 1960, I wasn't very interested
in chemistry, when, today, I find myself fascinated by it. The difference,
I think, is that I have been flirting with the idea of trying to replicate
Mizuno's experiment for over a year, and thus have a concrete reason for
picking up this sort of information. In 1960, on the other hand, such
information was just part of an annoying required course that I might have
skipped if permitted to do so.

--Mitchell Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 09:28:19 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Oxidation Potentials
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

The difference,
>I think, is that I have been flirting with the idea of trying to replicate
>Mizuno's experiment for over a year . . .

Which experiment? He has done so many . . .

- Jed

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Subject: Re: Yellow Water & Ionic Conduction in a High-Pressure D2-Noble Gas Mix?
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----- Original Message -----
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: Yellow Water & Ionic Conduction in a High-Pressure D2-Noble Gas
Mix?

Ed Storms wrote
>
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> > Edmund,
> >
> > Could  Scott's "Yellow Water" effect, where he sparged H2 into tapwater,
> > be due to; H2 + H2O<---> H3O+  +   H- which would change the oxidation
> > states of the Fe yielding the yellow color?
>
> The reaction you cite is endothermic, hence will not go spontaneously,
> hence the concentration of products will be much less than the
> concentration of reactants.

True, but 2 H2O <--->   H3O+    +     OH-   is endothermic also but exists
(1.0E-7 moles) in water at room temperature.

>
> All of this means that some D3O+ may form but the amount would be too
small
> to measure and too small to produce the effect you seek  However, such
> reactions are seen when the gas is bombarded with electrons, thereby
> providing the required energy.

At 2 kilobar pressure you should have at least 6E16 D3O+ and D- ions/cm^3
in a 1:1 mix of D2O and Ar, Kr or Xe...?

Regards,     Frederick

>
> Ed Storms
>
> >
> >
> > If so, wouldn't a mix of D2, D2O and Ar, Kr, or Xe under high pressure
> > give, D2 + D2O (vapor)<---> D3O+  +  D- allowing ionic conduction
> > in a "dry" gas mix?
> >
> > Regards,     Frederick
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 10:11:31 1999
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 13:01:15 EDT
Subject: Re: See notes.. Request for common sense Pons and Fleischman
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In a message dated 8/16/99 1:36:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mjones jump.net 
writes:

> ***{I think what John has in mind is using a standard 4-diode bridge
>  rectifier just after the power input terminals of a DC board. Let's
>  designate the input terminals to the board as I1 and I2 and the output
>  terminals from the bridge to the rest of the board as O1 and O2. Now, if O1
>  is plus and O2 is minus under one way of connecting the DC power supply
>  leads to I1 and I2, then O1 will also be plus and O2 will be minus if the
>  DC power supply leads are connected up the opposite way. While this type of
>  rectifier is normally used to convert AC to DC, it can also be used the way
>  John is suggesting, and will indeed have the effect of idiot proofing the
>  polarity hookup. I think it is a neat idea, and should be standard practice
>  on all large and expensive boards/devices that are vulnerable to this type
>  of error. --Mitchell Jones}***

There is an easier way that I have always used: A single diode of
sufficient current and reverse voltage capacity in the input power
lead of the device being powered. 
Hook up power input incorrectly (reverse voltage) and no power 
flows. Additionally, if wanted, an LED with a suitable series resistor can be 
connected across the input power leads that will light when power is the 
correct polarity. Label this LED "Power Good".

Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas

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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: YA Main Homepage (Yanmar Diesel Engines)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:13:46 -0700
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Frederick
	I have one in my sailboat "Sabbatical", a 2 cyl, 13 HP very reliable
unit. I never have tried running it on Bullshit though. 
Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Frederick Sparber[SMTP:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Sunday, August 15, 1999 5:01 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	YA Main Homepage (Yanmar Diesel Engines)
> 
> <<File: YA Main Homepage.url>>
> Got any of these around, Knuke?   :-)
> 
> FJS
> 
>  http://www.yanmar.com/frames45.htm
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 10:16:36 1999
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <c9818f5a.24e99ddb aol.com>
Subject: Re: See notes.. Request for common sense Pons and Fleischman
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:13:35 -0700
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----- Original Message -----
From: <VCockeram aol.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: See notes.. Request for common sense Pons and Fleischman

He's Back! Guard your stuff men!!!   :-)

FJS


> In a message dated 8/16/99 1:36:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjones jump.net
> writes:
>
> > ***{I think what John has in mind is using a standard 4-diode bridge
> >  rectifier just after the power input terminals of a DC board. Let's
> >  designate the input terminals to the board as I1 and I2 and the output
> >  terminals from the bridge to the rest of the board as O1 and O2. Now,
if O1
> >  is plus and O2 is minus under one way of connecting the DC power supply
> >  leads to I1 and I2, then O1 will also be plus and O2 will be minus if
the
> >  DC power supply leads are connected up the opposite way. While this
type of
> >  rectifier is normally used to convert AC to DC, it can also be used the
way
> >  John is suggesting, and will indeed have the effect of idiot proofing
the
> >  polarity hookup. I think it is a neat idea, and should be standard
practice
> >  on all large and expensive boards/devices that are vulnerable to this
type
> >  of error. --Mitchell Jones}***
>
> There is an easier way that I have always used: A single diode of
> sufficient current and reverse voltage capacity in the input power
> lead of the device being powered.
> Hook up power input incorrectly (reverse voltage) and no power
> flows. Additionally, if wanted, an LED with a suitable series resistor can
be
> connected across the input power leads that will light when power is the
> correct polarity. Label this LED "Power Good".
>
> Vince Cockeram
> Las Vegas
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 10:21:50 1999
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: YA Main Homepage (Yanmar Diesel Engines)
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----- Original Message -----
From: Scudder, Henry J <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 10:13 AM
Subject: RE: YA Main Homepage (Yanmar Diesel Engines)

LOL! If you haven't tried it, don't knock it, Hank. :-)

A friend up the road has a regional distributorship for the Yanmars, he
packages
gensets for ranchers all over the southwest.  Darn good engines.

Fred.


> Frederick
> I have one in my sailboat "Sabbatical", a 2 cyl, 13 HP very reliable
> unit. I never have tried running it on Bullshit though.
> Hank
>
> > ----------
> > From: Frederick Sparber[SMTP:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Sent: Sunday, August 15, 1999 5:01 PM
> > To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Subject: YA Main Homepage (Yanmar Diesel Engines)
> >
> > <<File: YA Main Homepage.url>>
> > Got any of these around, Knuke?   :-)
> >
> > FJS
> >
> >  http://www.yanmar.com/frames45.htm
> >
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 10:52:24 1999
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From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: Re: Yellow Water & Ionic Conduction in a High-Pressure D2-Noble Gas Mix?
References: <001101bee7da$fb82e960$ee441d26 fjsparber> <37B832C7.A5161902@ix.netcom.com> <003501bee811$fe26db40$ee441d26@fjsparber>
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 8:48 AM
> Subject: Re: Yellow Water & Ionic Conduction in a High-Pressure D2-Noble Gas
> Mix?
>
> Ed Storms wrote
> >
> >
> > Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >
> > > Edmund,
> > >
> > > Could  Scott's "Yellow Water" effect, where he sparged H2 into tapwater,
> > > be due to; H2 + H2O<---> H3O+  +   H- which would change the oxidation
> > > states of the Fe yielding the yellow color?
> >
> > The reaction you cite is endothermic, hence will not go spontaneously,
> > hence the concentration of products will be much less than the
> > concentration of reactants.
>
> True, but 2 H2O <--->   H3O+    +     OH-   is endothermic also but exists
> (1.0E-7 moles) in water at room temperature.
>
> >
> > All of this means that some D3O+ may form but the amount would be too
> small
> > to measure and too small to produce the effect you seek  However, such
> > reactions are seen when the gas is bombarded with electrons, thereby
> > providing the required energy.
>
> At 2 kilobar pressure you should have at least 6E16 D3O+ and D- ions/cm^3
> in a 1:1 mix of D2O and Ar, Kr or Xe...?
>
> Regards,     Frederick
>
> >
> > Ed Storms
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > If so, wouldn't a mix of D2, D2O and Ar, Kr, or Xe under high pressure
> > > give, D2 + D2O (vapor)<---> D3O+  +  D- allowing ionic conduction
> > > in a "dry" gas mix?
> > >
> > > Regards,     Frederick

Reactions occurring in solution are more complex than those occurring in the
gas because of solvent interaction with the ions in solution.  In solution, the
ions are surrounded by weakly bonded solvent molecules, hence are more stable
and have a slightly higher concentration than normally would be the case, i.e.
compared to a gas.  In a gas, the ions attract each other which increases the
rate of back reaction.  Therefore, you can not extrapolate from the behavior of
a solution to predict the behavior of a gas.  Without a steady discharge, you
would find no detectable ions in a gas. Indeed, this fact is used in radiation
detectors to detect the amount of radiation based on the number of ions
formed.  Since cosmic rays and natural radioactivity are always present, some
ions always exist in a gas from this source, but the numbers are very small.

Ed Storms

>
> >
> >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 11:14:54 1999
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Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 13:12:01 -0500
From: "Patrick V. Reavis" <preavis ro.com>
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Subject: Re: Yellow Water 
References: <001101bee7da$fb82e960$ee441d26 fjsparber> <37B832C7.A5161902@ix.netcom.com> <003501bee811$fe26db40$ee441d26@fjsparber> <37B84F58.104969DB@ix.netcom.com>
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Yellow water:
That which precedes Yellow snow....

--
Regards,
Patrick V. Reavis


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 11:22:17 1999
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Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 14:23:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Bling blang right! Re: See notes.. Request for common sense Pons and the natural velocity of music genre...
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	Aye!
	And guard it well ..

	Read on ... and BE AFFEARED !

	Physics under examination by the kings.... the experimentalists!
> 
> He's Back! Guard your stuff men!!!   :-)
> 
> FJS
> 
> 
> > In a message dated 8/16/99 1:36:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> mjones jump.net
> > writes:


	Drag Race:

	A long wire is set up.... say 300 feet or so.

	1] A signal carrier square wave at about 1 meg cps is sent over
this wire.

 
	2]   A phase shift circuit and latch are set up so as to be able
to  create a fixed phase lead, adjustable of, say 20 to 80 degrees. 
	3] The latch works like this:  
		a] In a manual configuration the phase lead can be 
toggled in and out. 
		b] when the phase circuit is enabled a variable resistance
potentiometer is used to dial the phase lead to some value, say 40 degrees
lead.
		c]  the set up is then put is trigger mode.  In trigger
mode a trigger pulse, from an arbitrary source, maybe a push putton, is
created.
		d]   the trigger activates  the latch, causing a shift, in
this case a 40 degree lead that maintains until manually reset.
	
	DETECTORS:  Two detectors are used and the outputs of the
detectors are conditioned. One is optical and one is a phase detector.
	

	The RACE!

	4] The trigger sends a pulse to the latch and also to a flash
tube. 
	5] The conditioned output of the detectors are conveyed to
oscilloscope ... these may be conveyed a number of ways:  Example" 
		a] the two signals are summed and the optical
detector is positive going and the phase detector is negative going.

	6]	A long wire test is set up to compare the optical with the
electrical at 10 meters, 20 meers and 30 meters.
		The results of these tests are used to establish the
latency of the detectors and sending phase lead and also of light from
flash tube.
	7]	Test is performed with long wire, say 300 feet.

	After this an audio signal from tape is phase modulated and sent
on wire to see the real test.
	C and W, R and B, R and R and classical all are sent in different
runs .... this will determine if blues are faster or not....

	Comment?



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 11:32:40 1999
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Subject: Re: Yellow Water & Ionic Conduction in a High-Pressure D2-Noble Gas Mix?
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:29:59 -0700
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----- Original Message -----
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: Yellow Water & Ionic Conduction in a High-Pressure D2-Noble Gas
Mix?


I don't think radiation detectors are operated at 2 to 10 kilobars of
pressure
and possibly at 650 degrees K, Ed.

What happens to; 2 D2O <---> D3O+   +   D-  which is endothermic to
the tune of 17 Kcal/mole and yields 1.0E-7 mole at 300 K at kilobar
pressures?

Or D2 + D2O <--->  D3O+  +   D- ?

Something similar to Saha's equation should apply here.

Regards,   Frederick


>
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
> > To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> > Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 8:48 AM
> > Subject: Re: Yellow Water & Ionic Conduction in a High-Pressure D2-Noble
Gas
> > Mix?
> >
> > Ed Storms wrote
> > >
> > >
> > > Frederick Sparber wrote:
> > >
> > > > Edmund,
> > > >
> > > > Could  Scott's "Yellow Water" effect, where he sparged H2 into
tapwater,
> > > > be due to; H2 + H2O<---> H3O+  +   H- which would change the
oxidation
> > > > states of the Fe yielding the yellow color?
> > >
> > > The reaction you cite is endothermic, hence will not go spontaneously,
> > > hence the concentration of products will be much less than the
> > > concentration of reactants.
> >
> > True, but 2 H2O <--->   H3O+    +     OH-   is endothermic also but
exists
> > (1.0E-7 moles) in water at room temperature.
> >
> > >
> > > All of this means that some D3O+ may form but the amount would be too
> > small
> > > to measure and too small to produce the effect you seek  However, such
> > > reactions are seen when the gas is bombarded with electrons, thereby
> > > providing the required energy.
> >
> > At 2 kilobar pressure you should have at least 6E16 D3O+ and D-
ions/cm^3
> > in a 1:1 mix of D2O and Ar, Kr or Xe...?
> >
> > Regards,     Frederick
> >
> > >
> > > Ed Storms
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > If so, wouldn't a mix of D2, D2O and Ar, Kr, or Xe under high
pressure
> > > > give, D2 + D2O (vapor)<---> D3O+  +  D- allowing ionic conduction
> > > > in a "dry" gas mix?
> > > >
> > > > Regards,     Frederick
>
> Reactions occurring in solution are more complex than those occurring in
the
> gas because of solvent interaction with the ions in solution.  In
solution, the
> ions are surrounded by weakly bonded solvent molecules, hence are more
stable
> and have a slightly higher concentration than normally would be the case,
i.e.
> compared to a gas.  In a gas, the ions attract each other which increases
the
> rate of back reaction.  Therefore, you can not extrapolate from the
behavior of
> a solution to predict the behavior of a gas.  Without a steady discharge,
you
> would find no detectable ions in a gas. Indeed, this fact is used in
radiation
> detectors to detect the amount of radiation based on the number of ions
> formed.  Since cosmic rays and natural radioactivity are always present,
some
> ions always exist in a gas from this source, but the numbers are very
small.
>
> Ed Storms
>
> >
> > >
> > >
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 11:39:20 1999
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Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:08:45 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Oxidation Potentials
Resent-Message-ID: <"h21iv.0.gz1.Dg5kt" mx1>
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>The difference,
>>I think, is that I have been flirting with the idea of trying to replicate
>>Mizuno's experiment for over a year . . .
>
>Which experiment? He has done so many . . .
>
>- Jed

***{The "boiled lightning" setup--the one Scott has been struggling with
for the past several months--though I will not be trying to replicate
Mizuno so much as seeing if applying the protoneutron concept can boost the
performance out of the zone of ambiguity that it is in now. (At present, as
you know, I tend to attribute Mizuno's over unity claims to
undermeasurement of input power.) In preparation for such an effort, I have
acquired two non-functional Sorensen DCR 300-8A power supplies for $50
bucks each, and now have one of them working, and expect to have the other
working soon. Each supply gives me the capacity to go from 0 to 300 volts
DC at up to 8 amps, or higher if I hook them together. I have also acquired
the chemicals, the beakers, and the tungsten that I will need. It may be 6
months or a year before I am ready to actually try this, however, since
most of my time is committed to other projects. (Or I may just say to hell
with everything else, and start playing with the setup tomorrow morning.
:-) --Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 11:39:34 1999
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Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:39:58 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Elecromotive Force Series -- Re: yellow water
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[snip]

>
> I do not have to assume the proposed reaction
>>is possible. The tabulated EMF values show this to be true.
>
>***{Yes, they wouldn't list the reaction Fe+++ --> Fe++ + e if it were
>impossible.

***{Correction: that should be Fe++ --> Fe+++ + e. --MJ}***

However, the fact that it is possible does *not* mean it goes
>at a rate sufficient to produce a yellow coloration in Scott's lifetime.

***{Given the above correction--i.e., given that they do *not* list the
reduction version (which would be Fe+++ + e --> Fe++)--I have no idea why
you say "The tabulated EMF values show this to be true." (You can't very
well apply Akira's reasoning here, since you deny its validity. :-)
--Mitchell Jones}***

>--MJ}***
[snip]

>>
>>Ed Storms

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 12:04:55 1999
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Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 13:39:14 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: See notes.. Request for common sense Pons and Fleischman
Resent-Message-ID: <"DZb-C1.0.Ax3.006kt" mx1>
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>In a message dated 8/16/99 1:36:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mjones jump.net
>writes:
>
>> ***{I think what John has in mind is using a standard 4-diode bridge
>>  rectifier just after the power input terminals of a DC board. Let's
>>  designate the input terminals to the board as I1 and I2 and the output
>>  terminals from the bridge to the rest of the board as O1 and O2. Now, if O1
>>  is plus and O2 is minus under one way of connecting the DC power supply
>>  leads to I1 and I2, then O1 will also be plus and O2 will be minus if the
>>  DC power supply leads are connected up the opposite way. While this type of
>>  rectifier is normally used to convert AC to DC, it can also be used the way
>>  John is suggesting, and will indeed have the effect of idiot proofing the
>>  polarity hookup. I think it is a neat idea, and should be standard practice
>>  on all large and expensive boards/devices that are vulnerable to this type
>>  of error. --Mitchell Jones}***
>
>There is an easier way that I have always used: A single diode of
>sufficient current and reverse voltage capacity in the input power
>lead of the device being powered.
>Hook up power input incorrectly (reverse voltage) and no power
>flows. Additionally, if wanted, an LED with a suitable series resistor can be
>connected across the input power leads that will light when power is the
>correct polarity. Label this LED "Power Good".

***{Another good idea. Thanks. --MJ}***

>
>Vince Cockeram
>Las Vegas

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 12:04:58 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Yellow Water & Ionic Conduction in a High-Pressure D2-D2O-Noble Gas Mix?
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Ed,

I found this data for the Ion Product of water:

Pressure (Bars)                   Temperature  (deg C)

                              100           300            400**

1.0                     12.265        11.06        -----

1,000                 11.96           10.50      10.77

2,000                 11.72           10.08       9.98

10,000               10.68            8.71         8.25 

**  Supercritical above 375 C

This was in the CRC "Bible", along with an appropriate equation.

Regards,     Frederick           

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 12:17:54 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: YA Main Homepage (Yanmar Diesel Engines)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 15:22:25 -0400
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>LOL! If you haven't tried it, don't knock it, Hank. :-)
>
>A friend up the road has a regional distributorship for the Yanmars, he
>packages
>gensets for ranchers all over the southwest.  Darn good engines.
>
>Fred.

That's the report that I get from all the mariners that I know that have
them, too.  They are a very good value for the money, and are giving CAT and
GMAC fits. :)  If I did have one, you can bet I'd be motoring around the
Caribbean right now.  As it is, I'm presently reduced to playing with tin
can lids, a little wire, and the odd bit of string, which is still
interesting, but not very nautical.

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 14:05:00 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: YA Main Homepage (Yanmar Diesel Engines)
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>----- Original Message -----
>From: Scudder, Henry J <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 10:13 AM
>Subject: RE: YA Main Homepage (Yanmar Diesel Engines)
>
>LOL! If you haven't tried it, don't knock it, Hank. :-)
>
>A friend up the road has a regional distributorship for the Yanmars, he
>packages
>gensets for ranchers all over the southwest.  Darn good engines.
>
>Fred.

***{I'm in the market for a diesel power generator, as it happens. How do I
contact this guy? Thanks in advance. --Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 12:47:31 1999
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Subject: Re: Oxidation Potentials
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

	The "boiled lightning" setup--the one Scott has been struggling
	with for the past several months . . .

Oh yes, glow discharge with W or P cathodes. (I know you do not like that
name, but that is what they call it in the literature, so if you want to
learn more about it be prepared to look up the "glow discharge" keyword.)
Mizuno or Scott will tell you that the experiment is harder than it looks.
If you decide to do it, I strongly recommend you review the upcoming paper
by Ohmori and a copy of the CD-ROM I mailed to Scott. I am not sure whether
he has found the video useful, since it is in Japanese and I have only
translated short portions.


	--though I will not be trying to replicate Mizuno so much as
	seeing . . .

If you do not try very hard you will not be replicating him at all. You'll
be doing a different experiment.


	(At present, as you know, I tend to attribute Mizuno's over
	unity claims to undermeasurement of input power.)

Ah, yes, so you do . . . It seems like a far-fetched hypothesis to me. He
uses two independent power meters. Two other researchers replicated the
excess heat with still other power meters, and calibrations with glow
discharge at different power levels above and below the critical points
shown no excess heat. I doubt that Mizuno, Ohmori or Wu would take your
hypothesis seriously.


	In preparation for such an effort, I have acquired two
	non-functional Sorensen DCR 300-8A power supplies for $50 bucks
	each, and now have one of them working, and expect to have the
	other working soon.

I do not see why you need two power supplies. Anyway, 300 Volts, 8 amps
should be more than enough.


	I have also acquired the chemicals, the beakers, and the
	tungsten that I will need.

Small pieces of tungsten I presume. You cannot do large pieces with only
300 Volts.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 13:28:13 1999
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Subject: Re: Yellow Water & Ionic Conduction in a High-Pressure
  D2-Noble Gas Mix?
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At 09:48 AM 8/16/1999 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:
 
>The reaction you cite is endothermic, hence will not go spontaneously,
>hence the concentration of products will be much less than the
>concentration of reactants.   For a reaction to produce a significant
>concentration of products, there must be a reduction is Gibbs free energy.

   Or one of the products can be removed from the reaction, usually as a precipitate.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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Subject: Re: See notes.. Request for common sense Pons and Fleischman
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At 09:43 AM 8/16/1999 -0400, John Schnurer wrote:

> I think it is a neat idea, and should be standard practice
> on all large and expensive boards/devices that are vulnerable to this type
> of error. --Mitchell Jones}***
 
    Have you checked the wiring of your phone recently?  They used to contain a single diode to prevent them from burning out if connected backwards, but by now almost all telephones have a full wave bridge in the circut--as does your modem, etc.  It make
s it much easier to make telephone cord extenders, etc.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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Subject: Re: YA Main Homepage (Yanmar Diesel Engines)
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----- Original Message -----
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>

That's Andy Phillips; Phillips Diesel Inc. 505-865-7332 in New Mexico.
 Go to www.yanmar.com  and look up a distributor near you.

Regards,    Frederick

>
> ***{I'm in the market for a diesel power generator, as it happens. How do
I
> contact this guy? Thanks in advance. --Mitchell Jones}***
>
> [snip]
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 13:56:21 1999
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	What are you talkimg about?

			J

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Has Scott measured any pH change in the yellowing of his water?

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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Bling blang right! Re: See notes.. Request for common sense P
	ons and the natural velocity of music genre...
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:31:58 -0700
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John
	You need to distinguish between phase modulation, and phase
velocity. Phase modulation travels at the group velocity of the system under
test. Phase velocity is a "fiction" representing the phase angle change of a
pure continuous sine wave on a perfectly terminated transmission line.
Michael Schaffer described it very well earlier today. The relation between
the two is given by:

vg = vp/(1 - f/vp*dvp/df)   where vg is group velocity and

dvp/df is the derivative of the phase velocity with respect to frequency,
also sometimes known as the "dispersion". A good, easy to read reference to
this is the book by Ramo and Whinnery, Fields and Waves in Modern Radio",
John Wiley and Sons Inc, 1953, 3rd edition, 1958. See in particular, pp46-48

Hank

PS: Ramo is the R in TRW Corp.
> ----------
> From: 	John Schnurer[SMTP:herman antioch-college.edu]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Monday, August 16, 1999 11:23 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Cc: 	John Schnurer
> Subject: 	Bling blang right! Re: See notes.. Request for common sense
> Pons and the natural velocity of music genre...
> 
> 
> 
> 	Aye!
> 	And guard it well ..
> 
> 	Read on ... and BE AFFEARED !
> 
> 	Physics under examination by the kings.... the experimentalists!
> > 
> > He's Back! Guard your stuff men!!!   :-)
> > 
> > FJS
> > 
> > 
> > > In a message dated 8/16/99 1:36:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > mjones jump.net
> > > writes:
> 
> 
> 	Drag Race:
> 
> 	A long wire is set up.... say 300 feet or so.
> 
> 	1] A signal carrier square wave at about 1 meg cps is sent over
> this wire.
> 
>  
> 	2]   A phase shift circuit and latch are set up so as to be able
> to  create a fixed phase lead, adjustable of, say 20 to 80 degrees. 
> 	3] The latch works like this:  
> 		a] In a manual configuration the phase lead can be 
> toggled in and out. 
> 		b] when the phase circuit is enabled a variable resistance
> potentiometer is used to dial the phase lead to some value, say 40 degrees
> lead.
> 		c]  the set up is then put is trigger mode.  In trigger
> mode a trigger pulse, from an arbitrary source, maybe a push putton, is
> created.
> 		d]   the trigger activates  the latch, causing a shift, in
> this case a 40 degree lead that maintains until manually reset.
> 	
> 	DETECTORS:  Two detectors are used and the outputs of the
> detectors are conditioned. One is optical and one is a phase detector.
> 	
> 
> 	The RACE!
> 
> 	4] The trigger sends a pulse to the latch and also to a flash
> tube. 
> 	5] The conditioned output of the detectors are conveyed to
> oscilloscope ... these may be conveyed a number of ways:  Example" 
> 		a] the two signals are summed and the optical
> detector is positive going and the phase detector is negative going.
> 
> 	6]	A long wire test is set up to compare the optical with the
> electrical at 10 meters, 20 meers and 30 meters.
> 		The results of these tests are used to establish the
> latency of the detectors and sending phase lead and also of light from
> flash tube.
> 	7]	Test is performed with long wire, say 300 feet.
> 
> 	After this an audio signal from tape is phase modulated and sent
> on wire to see the real test.
> 	C and W, R and B, R and R and classical all are sent in different
> runs .... this will determine if blues are faster or not....
> 
> 	Comment?
> 
> 
> 

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If you have capacitors in series and resistors in parallel you create
the well known phase shift oscilator.

question1:
Is there a limit with enough stages how much you can shift the phase?

question2:
Does it work with square wave DC? I would like to get away with a 555
powering it...


Thank You
John Berry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 23:21:23 1999
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Subject: Re: Phase shift
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	What are you going to power with 555 timer?

			J

On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, John Berry wrote:

> If you have capacitors in series and resistors in parallel you create
> the well known phase shift oscilator.
> 
> question1:
> Is there a limit with enough stages how much you can shift the phase?
> 
> question2:
> Does it work with square wave DC? I would like to get away with a 555
> powering it...
> 
> 
> Thank You
> John Berry
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 16 23:44:57 1999
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I will power a number of small coils...

John Schnurer wrote:

>         What are you going to power with 555 timer?
>
>                         J
>
> On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, John Berry wrote:
>
> > If you have capacitors in series and resistors in parallel you create
> > the well known phase shift oscilator.
> >
> > question1:
> > Is there a limit with enough stages how much you can shift the phase?
> >
> > question2:
> > Does it work with square wave DC? I would like to get away with a 555
> > powering it...
> >
> >
> > Thank You
> > John Berry
> >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 17 05:28:13 1999
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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 07:13:10 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Oxidation Potentials
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>	The "boiled lightning" setup--the one Scott has been struggling
>	with for the past several months . . .
>
>Oh yes, glow discharge with W or P cathodes. (I know you do not like that
>name, but that is what they call it in the literature, so if you want to
>learn more about it be prepared to look up the "glow discharge" keyword.)
>Mizuno or Scott will tell you that the experiment is harder than it looks.

***{Scott especially, since he can't get the effect. :-) --MJ}***

>If you decide to do it, I strongly recommend you review the upcoming paper
>by Ohmori and a copy of the CD-ROM I mailed to Scott.

***{Will the CD-ROM run on a Mac? If so, how do I obtain a copy? --MJ}***

I am not sure whether
>he has found the video useful, since it is in Japanese and I have only
>translated short portions.

***{I don't know about the video. Actually seeing what Mizuno is doing
might cramp my style. :-) --MJ}***

>
>
>	--though I will not be trying to replicate Mizuno so much as
>	seeing . . .
>
>If you do not try very hard you will not be replicating him at all. You'll
>be doing a different experiment.

***{You know me: I do everything my own way. (And when I don't get the
effect, I'll say Mizuno screwed up somewhere. :-) --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>	(At present, as you know, I tend to attribute Mizuno's over
>	unity claims to undermeasurement of input power.)
>
>Ah, yes, so you do . . . It seems like a far-fetched hypothesis to me. He
>uses two independent power meters. Two other researchers replicated the
>excess heat with still other power meters, and calibrations with glow
>discharge at different power levels above and below the critical points
>show no excess heat. I doubt that Mizuno, Ohmori or Wu would take your
>hypothesis seriously.

***{I'll bet Robert Park would take it seriously. :-) --MJ}***

>
>
>	In preparation for such an effort, I have acquired two
>	non-functional Sorensen DCR 300-8A power supplies for $50 bucks
>	each, and now have one of them working, and expect to have the
>	other working soon.
>
>I do not see why you need two power supplies. Anyway, 300 Volts, 8 amps
>should be more than enough.

***{At $50 each, they were too much of a bargain to pass up. Besides, with
two of the beasties, I will be able to run two cells at once. --MJ}***

>
>	I have also acquired the chemicals, the beakers, and the
>	tungsten that I will need.
>
>Small pieces of tungsten I presume. You cannot do large pieces with only
>300 Volts.

***{Yes, and some welding rods, both thoriated and regular tungsten. The
geometry of my cathodes, however, will be nothing like Mizuno's. --MJ}***

>
>- Jed

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	Dear John,

	If you want to power small coils with 555 timer you can ... but
there are some limits:

	1]  You should have a protection diode to block back EMF across
the leads to the coil... anode of diode is to negative side and the
cathode goes to the plus side or pin 3

	2]  If the coils have a DC resistance of equalt to or less than
about 300 ohms then you should have a 300 ohm resistor in series with
coil... usually the plus side is limited.

	3]  The diode and resistor should be built intothe leads going to
the coil [s].

	1a] the diode prevents back EMF
	2a] the resistor limits current the 555 is attempting to drive]	
	3a] putting the protection in the leads tends to make sure the
protection is applied.

	The 555 can be buffered with 1 or more transistors for more power

	What voltage will you be running  and what is the application?
 	It is usually best to use  the bi polar version of the timer, as
opposed to CMOS type.  The bipolar is usually capable of switching 100 to
200 milli ampes at 500,000 cps.  Get application book and wire as an
astable multivibrator.  Timing resistors should be no less than about 1
1,500 ohms.

				JHS


On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, John Berry wrote:

> I will power a number of small coils...
> 
> John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> >         What are you going to power with 555 timer?
> >
> >                         J
> >
> > On Tue, 17 Aug 1999, John Berry wrote:
> >
> > > If you have capacitors in series and resistors in parallel you create
> > > the well known phase shift oscilator.
> > >
> > > question1:
> > > Is there a limit with enough stages how much you can shift the phase?
> > >
> > > question2:
> > > Does it work with square wave DC? I would like to get away with a 555
> > > powering it...
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank You
> > > John Berry
> > >
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 17 07:47:25 1999
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Subject: Re: Oxidation Potentials
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

	At $50 each, they were too much of a bargain to pass up.
	Besides, with two of the beasties, I will be able to run two
	cells at once.

Sort of like juggling a chainsaw and a bowling ball at the same time. I
hope you have a strong laboratory hood because the cells tend to explode
when you are first learning how to do this, and I think trying to manage
two at once would be asking for trouble.


	Yes, and some welding rods, both thoriated and regular tungsten.
	The geometry of my cathodes, however, will be nothing like
	Mizuno's.

Then it definitely will not produce excess heat. It has to be a foil. It
probably needs a rough surface which has been electrochemically aged. Other
configurations like wires have not produced excess heat as far as I know.

If the purpose of your experiment is to replicate Ohmori and Mizuno, then
you should follow instructions. If your purpose is to have fun, to see a
neat looking glow discharge, or investigate your own theories, then you
should do it anyway you like.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 17 08:20:15 1999
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From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ca-ois.com>
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Vo, 

The site at:

http://oak.oakland.edu/simtel.net/msdos/science.html

contains two compressed zip files named spookyl1.zip and spookyl2.zip
which you can download and uncompress using pkunzip. The demos resulting
went a long way in educating me about Quantum Mechanical experimental
setups and the resulting phenomena. These programs are highly
recommended and the author also has a program there which apparently can
predict subnuclear particles (spookyym.zip).  

John S. since you are unable to access the web, if you would like me to
email copies of these compressed zip files let me know and I will try to
send tham as attachments on a private message. They are about 150 or so
average kbytes each. You need an MSDOS compatible computer or maybe a
dos emulator for a mac. Did you try the lynx thing or are you just sure
that won't work?

Jim

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 17 08:20:33 1999
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Michael Schaffer wrote:

> Phase velocity is the velocity with which a constant-phase point on a wave
> propagates.

Thank you Michael for your explanation and also for keeping the math
simple. Let me chew on this for a while and I will get back to you (and
vortex). It is nice to know that you are still around and paying
attention to us. Best wishes to you,

Jim Ostrowski


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Subject: Re: Oxidation Potentials
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----- Original Message -----
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 6:52 AM
Subject: Re: Oxidation Potentials

Jed wrote:
>
> If the purpose of your experiment is to replicate Ohmori and Mizuno, then
> you should follow instructions. If your purpose is to have fun, to see a
> neat looking glow discharge, or investigate your own theories, then you
> should do it anyway you like.

I buy the latter. If all everyone does is mess around trying to replicate
marginal OU, it's a waste of time and money.

Drill a 1.125" (+.004" -.000") diameter hole  2 "  deep in a 3" diameter x
3" long piece of mild steel barstock.

Put in about 1/8" deep Mercury Pool and about 1/2" deep (~8 Cm^3 ) D2O or
H2O with K2CO3.

Fire a piece of Ceramic (Kaolin Clay) to fit in the hole with an 1/8"
diameter steel drill rod in it to make the anodeand lower
portion of a Bridgman Seal.

Make a steel compression Collar shaped to compress the bridgman gasket using
12  1/4-28 socket-head screws with
tapped holes in the steel barstock.

With a Kilobar of compression, and the wire anode about 1/8" from the Hg
pool and the assembly in a dewar of water for calorimetry, your 300 volt, 8
amp power supply should get you what you want without burning up tungsten.
If you want to burn tungsten, substitute a disk of it for the Hg.

Regards,     Frederick




>
> - Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 17 09:58:22 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Oxidation Potentials
In-Reply-To: <002701bee8d2$0d366f40$7b441d26 fjsparber>
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Fred wrote:

>I buy the latter. If all everyone does is mess around trying to replicate
>marginal OU, it's a waste of time and money.

The glow discharge experiments do not usually produce marginal ou. They
produce no ou or major ou -- or it is a mistake. When a skilled
electrochemist replicated the experiment at the KRI, with Mizuno's
collaboration, the experiment produced 300% excess the first time and it
has continued to produde large, easily measured excess in most subsequent
runs as far as I know. (I have not heard from the KRI directly, so I do not
know much.)

That is not to say it works every time. There have been many runs which
produced no heat, and a few that produced marginal heat, but generally when
the conditions are met and the thing goes off, it goes off with a bang.
Sometimes literally, when cells blow up. It is a gratifying experiment in
that sense.

Of course if it turns out to be a calorimetry error then it sure is a waste
of time and money!

- Jed

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 17 10:31:53 1999
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----- Original Message -----
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: Oxidation Potentials

Jed wrote:
>
> The glow discharge experiments do not usually produce marginal ou. They
> produce no ou or major ou -- or it is a mistake. When a skilled
> electrochemist replicated the experiment at the KRI, with Mizuno's
> collaboration, the experiment produced 300% excess the first time and it
> has continued to produde large, easily measured excess in most subsequent
> runs as far as I know. (I have not heard from the KRI directly, so I do
not
> know much.)

All well and good, Jed, but  300% excess at 80 deg C (353 K) would give you
a Carnot efficiency
(Th - Tc)/Th  or (353 - 300)/353 of about  15%, which means that excess of
over 1,000% at 80C, would be required to make the system self-sustaining.

Sooner or later you have to go from benchtop research to engineered devices,
so it is prudent to do experiments that are geared toward  practical
application.

The proposed Kilobar Cell operated at 500 C  at 300% excess would give you a
Carnot efficiency of
(773-300)/773 = 61%. Now you have something to go to market with.  :-)
>
>but generally when
> the conditions are met and the thing goes off, it goes off with a bang.
> Sometimes literally, when cells blow up. It is a gratifying experiment in
> that sense.
>
What are you, some kind of pervert?   :-)

Regards,     Frederick
> - Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 17 11:38:52 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Oxidation Potentials
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References: <3.0.6.32.19990816154351.00797100 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3.0.6.32.19990817095248.00799570 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3.0.6.32.19990817125758.007a23a0 pop.mindspring.com>
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Fred Sparber wrote:

>All well and good, Jed, but  300% excess at 80 deg C (353 K) would give you
>a Carnot efficiency
>(Th - Tc)/Th  or (353 - 300)/353 of about  15%, which means that excess of
>over 1,000% at 80C, would be required to make the system self-sustaining.

I do not think it could self sustain even at 1,000%, the way it works now.
Input and output are herky-jerky, with sudden bursts and fluctuations. It
does not look practical. I think you need a reasonably steady flow of
energy, like you see from the Case cell and some thin film CF cathodes.

As I mentioned, Mizuno and the Santsuri Company have fabricated a heavy
duty steel cell, which will allow pressurized operation at temperatures
much higher than 80 deg C. This may enhance the effect. It might be
dangerous, too. They are doing it very slowly and carefully.


>> Sometimes literally, when cells blow up. It is a gratifying experiment in
>> that sense.
>>
>What are you, some kind of pervert?   :-)

Yeth. I love fireworks!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 17 11:51:11 1999
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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:53:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Metal alloy
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	Dear Vo.,

	Any Vos know where I gat get toll melting of metal alloy done?

	Toll melts are done by companies who specialize in custtom melting
and alloying... you pay a "toll" or fee for a custom melt ... usually to
make a custom alloy.  Toll melting is used by people who do not want to
have to buy a furnace ... and the work is usually done by experts who can
tell you before the melt what to expect, ie., "this will work" or "this
will not work" 


		Thanks,

				J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 17 12:46:45 1999
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August 17, 1999

Vortex, (and the bcc's)

Remember the other half of the Cold Fusion announcement in 1989? The
other half that came out of Bringham Young University in Utah? Yea, the
Jones that recanted on cold fusion (ala the spanish Inquisition?)

Well, I have received a blue sky bare hint that came out like this from
someone in a conversation. He knew I was into cold fusion but didn't
know anything himself except knew some other people also interested and
connected.
"What have you heard from Utah?" I answered:  nothing. "Have you heard
of Jones?" oh yes.
He admitted that a persone once burned is twice shy with a low profile.
No furthur elaboration.
I surmise that Jones is back at BYU (or some place in Utah)
investigating cold fusion again --- in secret. Crazy deduction? Perhaps.
Wouldn't hurt to find out --- quietly.

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 18 03:18:26 1999
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From: Remi Cornwall <r.o.cornwall city.ac.uk>
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Subject: effective permeability
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:14:57 +0100
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Vo,

If I have a block of material of permeability p and it occupies as volume V, what happens when I decimate it? Say I decimate it into long needle shaped entities so that demagnetisation effects are minimal and the effective volume is v. I now disperse it i
n volume V. Is the effective permeability pv/V ?

Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 18 03:53:15 1999
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 References to the cold fusion literature are available at 
  http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrefs.html
and http://kemi.aau.dk/~db/fusion  


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 18 06:51:15 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Allais effect, eclipse pendulum anomaly 
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At 11:05 PM 8/14/99 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote:
>Here's somebody's explanation for the Allais effect in a message swiped off
>sci.space.science. I would guess off the top of my head that the effect on
>pendulums that has been claimed is *way* too large to be accounted for by
>the lensing effect of the moon, but I'm not mathematically equipped to
>tackle this numerically. Does it seem like a plausable explanation?

No it doesn't!  To first (and probably 2nd and 3rd) order gravity follows a
straightforward superposition when two bodies act on a 3rd (Sun and Moon
acting on pendulum).  Allais observed really large perturbations of his
pendulum...perturbations that started suddenly and stopped almost as
suddenly in synchrony with the eclipse.  At the peak of the 1954 eclipse,
his pendulum was swinging in a plane that was some 11 degrees (ordinary
degrees) rotated from its expected swing plane.  By the end of the eclipse
it had more-or-less returned to its expected position!

The significance of Allais' result is complicated by his queer pendulum.
It had a deliberately anisotropic support that prevented full rotation
(unlike Foucault's pendulum).  I'd expect such a pendulum to just precess
around until the Foucault precession "force" was balanced with an opposite
force from the support.  However, for some reason, it's swing plane
continually precessed back and forth symmetrically about the neutral axis
(i.e. the plane preferred by the support) more-or-less sinusoidally with a
period of about 24.9 hours and a p-p amplitude of about 50 degrees!  In
other words, half the time, it was precessing opposite to the "Foucault
direction". At the time of the 1954 eclipse it was heading in the Foucault
direction.

The experiment was apparently very carefully conducted.  I wonder if anyone
has replicated Allais' observations.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 18 06:58:59 1999
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Future Vortexians?


> Josef and Elias were sitting having cereal this morning.  Josef says, "I
> know how to spell 'Dad':  D-O-G !"
> Elias got all perturbed and said, "IT is not!  That's how you spell
> God!"
> 

FJS


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 18 07:12:19 1999
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Vo,
I'm asking the wrong question. What I really want to know is the field
energy of this arrangement:

solenoid  ________________________________________________
          - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
          - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
core      - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          ________________________________________________

ie the core is decimated. If the field energy for a solid core is:
(1/2)eo.c^2.ur.B^2
{
eo permitivity free space
ur relative permeability
}

The field energy of the decimated core (long needle shaped entities)
volume v in volume V is:
v/V X (1/2)eo.c^2.ur.B^2

No?

The core has been decimated into long needles so demag effects are small:-

   NSNSNSNSNS largely cancels

whereas
   N                  S N                      S

has a large resultant field.
Remi.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 18 07:47:41 1999
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Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:44:51 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Allais effect, eclipse pendulum anomaly
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>Here's somebody's explanation for the Allais effect in a message swiped off
>sci.space.science. I would guess off the top of my head that the effect on
>pendulums that has been claimed is *way* too large to be accounted for by
>the lensing effect of the moon, but I'm not mathematically equipped to
>tackle this numerically. Does it seem like a plausable explanation?
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>Gravity is usually thought-of (explained) as a static
>>phenomenon: Eg: You weigh an apple on a scale, and it weighs
>>the same for hours, days: until the apple begins to dry. Yet
>>gravity is as amazing as the neutrino passing through
>>light-years of lead!
>>
>>Astrophysically significant phenomenon related to gravity,
>>are dynamic: Light passing through a gravitational field is
>>deflected: The phenomenon called, gravity lensing, popularizes
>>this effect: When a significantly massive object is between the
>>observer and a distant astronomically interesting object [ie.
>>telescopically visible asterisms, a galaxy, &c], a 'halo'
>>appears around the nearer, comprised of gravitationally
>>lensed imaging of the more distant.
>>
>>Gravity, revised to a dynamic explanation, exhibits a similar
>>effect: gravity along the line-of-view of an interstitial
>>massive object - such as our moon between our sun and an
>>observer on the Earth, during the moment of an eclipse - is
>>(gets) gravity-lensed: much as light photons, but which are
>>obscured by the moon's bulk, and neutrinos, but which are yet
>>nearly undetected by modern technology (however, 20%
>>fewer are counted at night, per super-KamiokaNDE)
>>
>>So at the moment of eclipse totality, the gravity (flux) from
>>our sun, though passing throught our moon seemingly
>>undisturbed, is slightly lensed directly centered beneath the
>>moon-shadow focused on the Earth.

***{This explanation assumes that the force of gravity is carried by
particles moving out from massive bodies, or else by the blocking effects
of such bodies on particles coming in from deep space (Lesage). While I
believe that theory is correct, Laplace proved almost 200 years ago (1804,
as I recall) that such theories require gravity particles to move at many
millions of times the speed of light, in contradiction to the Einstein
"universal speed limit." (If they moved at lightspeed, then the earth would
experience an acceleration tangential to its orbit which, over a very few
million years, would remove it from that orbit.) Within the Einsteinian
framework, on the other hand, gravity is treated as a static field in the
space surrounding massive bodies, and any eclipse related anomaly would
have to result from the summation of the moon's gravitational field with
that of the sun. In that case, the shift of the forces on the Allais'
pendulum would be *entirely* attributable to the change in the moon's field
over the time interval of the eclipse. Since that shift would be several
orders of magnitude too small to account for the observed effect, the
Allais experiment constitutes smoking gun proof--though none was really
needed--that the Einstein conception of gravitation is false. The force of
gravity is, in fact, carried through space by particles moving at millions
of times the speed of light. --Mitchell Jones}***

>>
>>And effects such as the Allais anomaly in the Foucault
>>pendulum path, during an eclipse totality, may be
>>considerably (re)attributable to it.
>>
>>[Of course, 'harmonist's await the full anti-gravity moment:
>>"And I, if I be lifted up, shall draw all men unto me"
>
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

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Vo,
In private correspondence with somebody I was confusing them and myself.
Yes introduce an air gap an the permeability rockets down but that is for
a SERIAL arrangement:-

Hope the artwork works, I'm on proportional font.

      |---------------------deciamated material--------------
   COIL                                                     |
      |------------------------------------------------------

Thus the induced field in the material would be low, hence low energy.

BUT, this is the arrangement:

coil
_______________________
         Material
_______________________

So in a sense, everything is in PARALLEL and the induced field is large
even if the material is decimated. Lots of energy.

This is a very important point as I frig about trying to get materials. I
have to boost the field from (say) Gd as it just becomes ferromagnetic.
The field will probably be <100uT. To make a compact device and stop me
wasting loadsamoney (350 pounds sterling/Kg for Gd UK prices, 50 pounds
eqv. USA damn!) I can intersperse my Gd slurry with a high initial mu
material, say a ferrite.

Remi. 


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Message-ID: <37BAEA67.436 ca-ois.com>
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Results of some Library Research : Doppler Effect

To the stationary observer the velocity of radiation in a
light beam is affected by a relative motion of the source.

See: McGraw-Hill Ency. of Sci. & Tech.,1982, v7 p687.

Vs = velocity of the source    C  = observed speed of light
     (Vs << Co)                F' = observed frequency
Co = vacuum speed of light     Fo = emitted frequency

C  = Co(1 - Vs/Co)    receeding source
F' = Fo(1 - Vs/Co)    shift to red
C  = Co(1 + Vs/Co)    approaching source
F' = Fo(1 + Vs/Co)    shift to blue

Source: Facts on File Dictionary of Physics, 1988, p55.

 I think the reality of the Doppler effect argues against C=C+V(source).

     Since a blue shift for advancing sources entails an  increase  in 
the energy of the recieved wavetrain , the conservation of energy
principle would  preclude  an  increase  of  C  velocity for waves
emanating
from advancing sources , since an increase  in  c  velocity  would  mean 
an additional  energetic value for the wave's E value as well. Where
would that additional energy come from?

    If c=c+v(source) was true , the  circles  would  overlap  instead 
of compress  in  the direction of motion , and there would be no
Doppler  effect as such. (see illustration attached doplrscp.gif)
 
--------------------------

Here is the problem I am struggling with in regard to relativity and the
Doppler effect:

The second postulate of relativity states that the measured speed of
light is a constant in all reference frames. 

    I think this is probably true but I do not see how it would be
possible to measure the speed of light from a source moving "relative"
to an observer's "stationary" position anyway unless the velocity of the
source is known in an ABSOLUTE sense ahead of time. Relativity by
definition denies absolute values (constants) other than the speed of
light, which is what you are trying to measure as it comes from the
source moving relative to you and at some velocity which is dependent on
WHO's MEASUREMENT, YOURS OR THEIRS? 

and this source velocity measurement based on WHAT observed effect....?

The Doppler Effect perhaps?

  Remember, no matter what you try, Einstein claims, the APPARENT speed
of light does not vary no matter WHO DOES the measurement.

 OK let's put that statement to some kind of "practical" that may become
possible with the development of the fusion rocket capable of accelating
at 1 g for at least a whole year as determined from timing devices on
board and monitored by the ship's occupants..  

  A 1450 meghertz radio tracking (pilot signal) beacon is on board
sending out a carrier modulated with periodic bursts of four equally
spaced 1 millisecond long pulses every ten seconds or so. See
illustration doplrscp.gif attached)
 
 There are two transmitting parabolic dishes mounted outside, one aimed
at earth and the other aimed at the destination planet Alpha Centauri D. 
The transmitter output is split between these two dishes.

As the ship nears a point in time as observed from the earth as having
been enroute for 1 year the recieved carrier center frequency (as
monitored by a spectrum analyzer) has decreased drastically to about 145
mhz and the recieved pulse modulations are getting farther and farther
apart in THE TIME DOMAIN (as monitored by an oscilloscope) and are
now 10 millisconds long. 

On board the ship, crewmembers see that everything is normal and the
transmitter is working properly, at 1450 mhz, pulse modulations occur
according to specs, all systems go.

On Alpha Centauri D, the Centurian Tracking station sees just the
opposite from what is seen on the earth's instruments. Center carrier
frequency is now in the 14 ghz regions and the 4 pulses are only .1
millisecond long.  

Who's equipment is performing the CORRECT measurement?

a. The earth's
b. The ship's
c. The Centaurians

Is time dilating for the ships occupants?

1. yes
2. no

If time IS dilating and the astronausts biomedical functions (such as
heartbeat rate) are going in slow motion as dtermined by earth's
instruments,  will the Centurians heart rate monitor for the astronauts
indicate the same thing ? 

 My question:

What quality of the recieved em radiation from the ships transmitter
could be used to make a light speed measurement from earth  to determine
if c = c-V ? Pulse counts per second?       

In short, what quality of this em radiation can be used to test
Einstein's 2nd?

Jim Ostrowski

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 18 13:22:09 1999
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From: VCockeram aol.com
Message-ID: <7bc2d74e.24ec6ddb aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:13:15 EDT
Subject: H2K calibration with H2 fill
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 8/16/99 10:16:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
fjsparber earthlink.net writes:
> He's Back! Guard your stuff men!!!   :-)
>  FJS

Greetings,

 I have been busy since about July 14th when the temperature in my
garage has been under 100 deg F (coolest July on record here in Vegas)
with running the glow experiment.  Been doing calibration runs with
various fill pressures from 10 torr to 200 torr.
Generally I do about 3 runs with each fill pressure using a new quartz
tube for each run.  So far I have run at 10, 15, 20, 50, 75, 100, 150 and
200 torr.  Just have a few more data points to run and then will be ready
to start runs with K in the tube.
As soon as I finish the calibration runs I will post the data here.
Found best tube current is between 20 and 25 milliamps which gives
a tube wattage of between 12 to 30 watts.  Higher than 30 milliamps
is destructive to the tube and the W electrodes.  Yes, I am back to W
electrodes, using 3/16 inch tungsten welding rods, non-thoriated.  Also
using HV DC well filtered (24 mfd caps) power supply. I built a good
voltage divider and good digital meters to measure tube voltage and
current.
Just completed a run at 200 torr fill this morning but will quit for the 
day as when the garage temperature passes 95 F, I retreat to the
backyard container of hydrogen monoxide.

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas Nevada

Got a treat here yesterday, a 10 million dollar business jet making
a belly landing at McCarran airport live on the evening news. 
The pilot did a really beautiful job, no injuries to 6 adults and 
two children after a flaming slide down runway 25L and just 
some scraped and melted sheet metal that after a little body 
work will surely fly again. The aircraft lost all hydraulics and was 
unable to deploy landing gear and flaps
Vince

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 18 13:55:49 1999
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: effctv perm. wrong question
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:58:05 -0400
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Hi Remi,
There is a difference between the serial and parallel effects as
you say here:
>      |---------------------deciamated material--------------
>   COIL                                                     |
>      |------------------------------------------------------
>
>Thus the induced field in the material would be low, hence low energy.
>
>BUT, this is the arrangement:
>
>coil
>_______________________
>         Material
>_______________________
-
but, there are both serial and parallel effects always present in a
suspension of two different magnetic materials, independent of any
external coil arrangement or flux path. I don't think you can add
high mu particles without diluting the effect of the changes caused by the
Gd particles. If you could work with thin layers, series and parallel
arrangements would be different, but with particles you will always have both.
-
>
>So in a sense, everything is in PARALLEL and the induced field is large
>even if the material is decimated. Lots of energy.
>
>This is a very important point as I frig about trying to get materials. I
>have to boost the field from (say) Gd as it just becomes ferromagnetic.
>The field will probably be <100uT. To make a compact device and stop me
>wasting loadsamoney (350 pounds sterling/Kg for Gd UK prices, 50 pounds
>eqv. USA damn!) I can intersperse my Gd slurry with a high initial mu
>material, say a ferrite.
-
I don't think this will work.
Suggestion, use a thin layer of the suspension in series with the
flux path.
-
One more observation, most people think of high mu as the high
energy case, however, at a given field (gauss) the available
electrical output energy is inversely proportional to mu.
High output energy can often be generated best when the mu of
a section of a series magnetic circuit is lowered !!! while a
shorted coil holds the flux constant.

Regards,
George
-
George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
1924 US Hwy 22 East        Bound Brook NJ 08805

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 18 14:32:18 1999
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Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:27:42 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Pump Assisted Hydraulic Systems
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[snip]

>
>Regards,
>Vince Cockeram
>Las Vegas Nevada
>
>Got a treat here yesterday, a 10 million dollar business jet making
>a belly landing at McCarran airport live on the evening news.
>The pilot did a really beautiful job, no injuries to 6 adults and
>two children after a flaming slide down runway 25L and just
>some scraped and melted sheet metal that after a little body
>work will surely fly again. The aircraft lost all hydraulics and was
>unable to deploy landing gear and flaps
>Vince

***{I would have thought that a $10 million aircraft would have a manual
backup system that could be used to deploy the landing gear, in case the
pump motor failed in the hydraulic system. (Or did the hydraulic fluid
actually leak out?) In any case, I think pump assisted hydraulic systems
are hugely overused. For example, I hate power steering not merely because
of the response delay--its reaction time to you is added to your reaction
time to the threat--but also because of the danger that results when it
goes out while you are tooling down the highway. (Did you ever try to steer
a car when the power steering was out? :-) Given a choice, I'll take old
fashioned mechanical steering every time. --Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 18 20:05:54 1999
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August 19, 1999

Vortex,

Hal Fox wrote in response to '1989 and now':

>It is true that Professor Jones recanted on cold fusion. Then he got a
>contract from the government to study the output from volcanoes to see
>if there was an evidence of transmutation.
>He is a tenured professor at BYU.  I worked with him to test our concept
>of using special type of .fibers and we got some evidence, but not
conclusive,
>of positive results.

>After we found out how most of the excess heat and transmutation occurs in
>cold fusion cells, we turned our attention to the further development of
>high-density charge clusters.

>I am reasonably sure that Prof. Jones is not working with cold fusion.

>If you are interested in some of the latest new-energy developments you
>should attend our August 27-28, 1999 INE-99 Symposium here in Salt Lake
>City.  If you can't come you should order a copy of the Proceedings.  It
>will be a most interesting conference.  The first to have a press
>release from a going corporation announcing a new-energy product.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 00:21:21 1999
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From: Remi Cornwall <r.o.cornwall city.ac.uk>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: effctv perm. wrong question
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 08:09:22 +0100
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BEEA1A.289427C0
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Thank you George,
I always pay heed to your responses which I know are based on much =
experience and study. Yes, I'm coming around to your way of thinking on =
use a thin layer - but not quite how you say. If you want to join the =
discussion between John Schnurer and myself you're more than welcome. =
This baby ain't difficult to do, the theory is straightforwards. I =
expect OU but to attract finance, I'd better get the demo right first =
time.

The last paragraph has me a little confused. You know how it is with me: =
I take a subject right down to first principles, build it up again to =
make sure I understand. I'm not one of those that glosses over things =
and says 'I did this back in School' and so put up a front that I really =
understand something when I don't. You see, that's when the corruption =
sets in... The bigger the person, the more humble only little people =
carp and blockade.
Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From:	George Holz [SMTP:george varisys.com]
Sent:	18 August 1999 21:58
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	Re: effctv perm. wrong question

Hi Remi,
There is a difference between the serial and parallel effects as
you say here:
>      |---------------------deciamated material--------------
>   COIL                                                     |
>      |------------------------------------------------------
>
>Thus the induced field in the material would be low, hence low energy.
>
>BUT, this is the arrangement:
>
>coil
>_______________________
>         Material
>_______________________
-
but, there are both serial and parallel effects always present in a
suspension of two different magnetic materials, independent of any
external coil arrangement or flux path. I don't think you can add
high mu particles without diluting the effect of the changes caused by =
the
Gd particles. If you could work with thin layers, series and parallel
arrangements would be different, but with particles you will always have =
both.
-
>
>So in a sense, everything is in PARALLEL and the induced field is large
>even if the material is decimated. Lots of energy.
>
>This is a very important point as I frig about trying to get materials. =
I
>have to boost the field from (say) Gd as it just becomes ferromagnetic.
>The field will probably be <100uT. To make a compact device and stop me
>wasting loadsamoney (350 pounds sterling/Kg for Gd UK prices, 50 pounds
>eqv. USA damn!) I can intersperse my Gd slurry with a high initial mu
>material, say a ferrite.
-
I don't think this will work.
Suggestion, use a thin layer of the suspension in series with the
flux path.
-
One more observation, most people think of high mu as the high
energy case, however, at a given field (gauss) the available
electrical output energy is inversely proportional to mu.
High output energy can often be generated best when the mu of
a section of a series magnetic circuit is lowered !!! while a
shorted coil holds the flux constant.

Regards,
George
-
George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
1924 US Hwy 22 East        Bound Brook NJ 08805


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------ =_NextPart_000_01BEEA1A.289427C0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 02:30:27 1999
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From: Remi Cornwall <r.o.cornwall city.ac.uk>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: How's Hamdi?
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:23:35 +0100
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Vo,
I don't know his private email but is Hamdi okay?
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 02:41:39 1999
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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:36:23 +0200
From: Jean-Paul Biberian <biberian mccir3.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
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Subject: Eclipse
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Hi all,

Last week I had the chance of seing the full eclipse, north of Paris. It
was a challenging endeavour, since the weather was partially clouded,
and we had to drive looking at openings in the clouds. Finally we found
a perfect spot, and had 20 seconds or so of full eclipse. It was very
spectacular. When finally the moon fully blocks the sun, the light
coming all around is a wonder. We could only see one star, probably
Venus.

I have a question that may be someone will be able to answer.

There have been lots of articles regarding the eclipse, and in
particular I read a paper related to the 1919 eclipse when general
relativity was proved by the displacement of the star near the sun. My
question is the following: In their article they mention that general
relativity predicts a displacement double than the one from Newton.
Doesn't make sense to me, since light has no mass Newton should not
predict any displacement. Has anyone an explanation, or is the paper
wrong?

Jean-Paul Biberian

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 03:51:42 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: How's Hamdi?
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 06:52:28 -0400
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>Vo,
>I don't know his private email but is Hamdi okay?
>Remi.

I thought I read that he was going on vacation not too long ago, and don't
remember if I read that he returned.  I just saw the report on the
earthquake myself, so it is quite possible that the phone lines are down or
a major part of the internet in that area is inaccessable.  We'll just have
to wait and hope for the best, unless there is someone in the area that can
shed more light on the subject.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 06:13:17 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Electroplated Pd-H or Pd-D Matrix?
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 07:08:38 -0700
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Edmund,

Whimsical Thought.

If, PdI2 is supposedly soluble in an aqueous KI-HI solution, would a Pd
anode
dissolve and plate out on a cathode (Ni?) in the form of a Pd-H or Pd-D Mix?

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 06:36:26 1999
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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 08:29:49 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Eclipse
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>Hi all,
>
>Last week I had the chance of seing the full eclipse, north of Paris. It
>was a challenging endeavour, since the weather was partially clouded,
>and we had to drive looking at openings in the clouds. Finally we found
>a perfect spot, and had 20 seconds or so of full eclipse. It was very
>spectacular. When finally the moon fully blocks the sun, the light
>coming all around is a wonder. We could only see one star, probably
>Venus.
>
>I have a question that may be someone will be able to answer.
>
>There have been lots of articles regarding the eclipse, and in
>particular I read a paper related to the 1919 eclipse when general
>relativity was proved by the displacement of the star near the sun. My
>question is the following: In their article they mention that general
>relativity predicts a displacement double than the one from Newton.
>Doesn't make sense to me, since light has no mass Newton should not
>predict any displacement. Has anyone an explanation, or is the paper
>wrong?

***{Newtonian optics conceded that light would be bent while passing
through a lens, and since a transparent sphere is just a *very* convex
lens, light passing through a transparent sphere would also be bent. Since
the solar atmosphere is just a very large transparent sphere, with an
opaque region at the center, light passing through the transparent outer
margins of the solar sphere should be bent. To predict how much, however,
one would need to have more precise information about the depth and density
of the solar atmosphere than they had in 1919. Thus if a calculation based
on Newtonian optics was within 50% based on 1919 data, it might be right on
the money based on 1999 data. Perhaps it is a subject worth revisiting!
--Mitchell Jones}***
>
>Jean-Paul Biberian

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 07:38:11 1999
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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 08:36:05 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
Organization: Energy K System
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References: <003101beea4c$73965a40$c5441d26 fjsparber>
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Yes, but the plated layer would be very porous and poorly attached.  The nature
of the ion in solution is very important to obtain a tight, smooth coating.  A
very large literature addresses this problem.

Ed

Frederick Sparber wrote:

> Edmund,
>
> Whimsical Thought.
>
> If, PdI2 is supposedly soluble in an aqueous KI-HI solution, would a Pd
> anode
> dissolve and plate out on a cathode (Ni?) in the form of a Pd-H or Pd-D Mix?
>
> Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 07:50:40 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Eclipse
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At 11:36 AM 8/19/99 +0200, Jean-Paul Biberian wrote:

>...a displacement double than the one from Newton.
>Doesn't make sense to me, since light has no mass Newton should not
>predict any displacement.

Assuming the photon is passing through space...not the solar
atmosphere...Newton himself wouldn't have predicted a deflection but, as
soon as we got E=mc^2 from Al, it was possible to assign an effective mass
to a photon, E/c^2, where E = h*nu.  If you use that effective mass and
calculate the deflection of the photon passing near the sun, you come up
with precisely half of the observed deflection.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 08:00:10 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Eclipse
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

Thus if a calculation based
>on Newtonian optics was within 50% based on 1919 data, it might be right on
>the money based on 1999 data. Perhaps it is a subject worth revisiting!

That is very interesting! I too have long wondered about this Newtonian
light-bending claim. The other early evidence in support of the Special
Theory was the Mitchelson Morely experiment. As we have discussed here,
Trevor Pinch and others have raised doubts about this work.

However, physicists tell me many experiments after 1919 support the theory,
especially in high energy particle physics. For example, accelerated
particles last longer, which proves time dilation. I cannot judge this
issue, but they tell me that special relativity is a work-a-day tool and an
indispensable organizing principle, like evolution is to a biologist.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 08:00:15 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: More info from Mizuno
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Greetings all. Behind the scenes I have been discussing the Mizuno glow
discharge experiments with Scott Little, Ed Wall and some other people.
Most of this conversation is devoted to boring minutiae such as how to
scratch tungsten with glass. Yesterday I went over several points with
Mizuno, and I think his responses may be of more general interest, so I
will post them here. This also saves me the trouble of preparing an email
message to multiple recipients.

Here are questions (Q) from Scott and me, and answers (A) from Mizuno,
translated from Japanese. My comments about his comments are in square
brackets

Q. What is the full name of this researcher at the KRI? (I have been
variously reading the characters as Chu and Wu -- my Chinese is weak. It's
practically nonexistent, actually. I can tell you whether it is fish or
foul on the Chinese restaurant menu.)

A: More indecipherable charactors, alas. And a phone number! 090-2671-5932,
Engineering Department, New Materials Development Center, Kansai Research
Institute. In Japanese I think the name would be pronounced . . . Koutetsu
Chou. Dr. K. Cho. Does anyone here read Chinese?

Q: Did you receive the used cathode from Scott Little? [Little mailed five
cathodes, including a used one that Mizuno originally sent to him. I
presume the other four were assembled from locally purchased metal.]

A: Yes, I received the materials. I have assembled a new calorimeter
configuration, which will allow me to freely adjust the operating
temperature of the cell. I'm presently calibrating the new system, and when
I finish I will test the material he sent me. [I have no other details
about this new configuration. This is the fourth calorimeter type he is
used in the last year.]

Q: the paper says that after electrolysis the sample was removed, washed
with pure water, dried, immersed in analysis grade purity acetone, and
placed in an ultrasonic cleaner. How long did you leave it there?

A: 10 minutes

Q: Do you think this treatment would remove galvanized deposits along with
a thin layer of cathode metal? [I assumed that was the point -- to avoid
the issue of galvanized contamination.]

A: That's right. Despite that fact, a portion of the transmuted elements
penetrates below surface levels, and this portion can still be detected
after the acid bath treatment. [Wow!]
 
Q: Scott Little watched the video and he was surprised to see you touching
the cathode in the last stages before cleaning with acetone. I told him
this was an informal test and that when you prepare a sample to be checked
for anomalous isotopes, I think you are more careful. I base that on
Section 3.2 "Electrolyte and Cathode Material Preparation:" "Then the
sample was rinsed, the lead wire was completely covered with a Teflon
shrink wrap tube, and then the sample was electrolyzed." Do you wear gloves
in the final stages, or do you sometimes touch the cathode with your fingers?

A: during the experiment the cathode never touched with bare hands. We
always use rubber gloves.

[In other words, I was right. When I was there, Mizuno explained that he
was doing an informal test. We skipped some steps in order to do three
tests in one day and if it the test reasonably within a one-hour video. We
also turned off some of the noisy, hot, refrigeration equipment. That
degraded the calorimetry, but it made it easier to record the video and
bear the heat in the room.]

Q: each data point in figures can, 12 and 13 represents one run of 1000
seconds duration. How many points are shown?

A: 100

Q: Were these point taken with flow calorimetry, or isoperibolic?

A: Isoperibolic calorimetry.

Q: in these tests did you always score (scratch) the cathode surface, or
sometimes score it, or never score it?

A: All cathodes were scratched. [Scott: Please note this! I do not
understand why he sent you smooth ones, but anyway, that's the news.]


Mizuno is the soul of cooperation. If all cold fusion scientists acted the
way he does, by now we would have cold fusion powered automobiles.

- Jed

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How does the calculation go with GR Scott?

-----Original Message-----
From:	Scott Little [SMTP:little eden.com]
Sent:	19 August 1999 15:45
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com; vortex-l
Subject:	Re: Eclipse

At 11:36 AM 8/19/99 +0200, Jean-Paul Biberian wrote:

>...a displacement double than the one from Newton.
>Doesn't make sense to me, since light has no mass Newton should not
>predict any displacement.

Assuming the photon is passing through space...not the solar
atmosphere...Newton himself wouldn't have predicted a deflection but, as
soon as we got E=mc^2 from Al, it was possible to assign an effective mass
to a photon, E/c^2, where E = h*nu.  If you use that effective mass and
calculate the deflection of the photon passing near the sun, you come up
with precisely half of the observed deflection.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 08:17:13 1999
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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:15:42 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: More info from Mizuno
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990819105857.00798560 pop.mindspring.com>
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I wrote:

>Q: each data point in figures can, 12 and 13 represents one run of 1000
>seconds duration. How many points are shown?
>
>A: 100

That's supposed to be "figures 10, 12 and 13." A voice input glitch. The
part about "fish or foul" in Chinese resturants was deliberate. Honto, the
most popular one near this office scored a 36 points out a 100 in the
health department inspections before they finally shut it down. It was
great food! Why worry about a little Staphylococcus aureus between friends?
Those health dept. inspectors are a bunch of soreheads. Another other good
Chinese resturant down the street was closed by excess heavy weapons fire
-- an altercation, you might say.

100 stable glow discharge tests of 1000 seconds each equals 27 hours of
operation, which translates into a *phonomenal* amount of work, and
expense. Ask anyone who has tried this experiment.

- Jed

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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:21:32 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Eclipse
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>At 11:36 AM 8/19/99 +0200, Jean-Paul Biberian wrote:
>
>>...a displacement double than the one from Newton.
>>Doesn't make sense to me, since light has no mass Newton should not
>>predict any displacement.
>
>Assuming the photon is passing through space...not the solar
>atmosphere

***{Ah, yes, but where does the solar atmosphere end? The answer is that it
doesn't: it just gets thinner and thinner as you move outward from the
center of mass, until a point is reached where the sun's gravitational
field is no longer dominant. --Mitchell Jones}***

...Newton himself wouldn't have predicted a deflection

***{It seems likely to me that Newton would have recognized that the solar
atmosphere fills the entire region in which solar gravity is dominant, just
as Earth's atmosphere fills the entire region in which Earth gravity is
dominant. If so, he would have predicted a deflection due to the
atmospheric lensing effect. In addition, he endorsed a corpuscular theory
of light, and it is very likely that, had he been asked, he would have
indicated a belief that the corpuscles had mass. Result: he would have
predicted a deflection due to two components: (a) the atmospheric lensing
effect, and (b) the gravitational deflection effect. His prediction,
however, would likely have been qualitative rather than quantitative, since
during his time virtually nothing was known about the solar atmosphere or
about the masses of photons. --Mitchell Jones}***

but, as
>soon as we got E=mc^2 from Al, it was possible to assign an effective mass
>to a photon, E/c^2, where E = h*nu.  If you use that effective mass and
>calculate the deflection of the photon passing near the sun, you come up
>with precisely half of the observed deflection.

***{Yes, because you would only be calculating the gravitational component
of the total deflection. The other component would be the lensing effect,
due to the photon's passage through the solar atmosphere. As for the notion
that this photon mass is merely effective rather than real, that is a
distinction which has always seemed rather silly to me. (Is the mass-energy
equivalence merely "effective" rather than real? :-) --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 08:46:37 1999
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At 04:13 PM 8/18/1999 EDT, VCockeram aol.com wrote:

>Got a treat here yesterday, a 10 million dollar business jet making
>a belly landing at McCarran airport live on the evening news. 
>The pilot did a really beautiful job, no injuries to 6 adults and 
>two children after a flaming slide down runway 25L and just 
>some scraped and melted sheet metal that after a little body 
>work will surely fly again. The aircraft lost all hydraulics and was 
>unable to deploy landing gear and flaps

    I was surprised that the didn't seem to have foamed the runway.  (The foam does help minimize damage to the plane, but the main goal is to prevent sparks which could ignite any remaining fuel.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

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At 10:18 AM 8/19/1999 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>However, physicists tell me many experiments after 1919 support the theory,
>especially in high energy particle physics. For example, accelerated
>particles last longer, which proves time dilation. I cannot judge this
>issue, but they tell me that special relativity is a work-a-day tool and an
>indispensable organizing principle, like evolution is to a biologist.

    Special relativity make lots of easily falsible predictions that, when tested hold true.  You don't get very far arguing with it.  But as the name says, it only applies to certain special cases, when you go outside that area, you are into general rela
tivity.  General Relativity is, depending on which phyisict you ask, impossible to prove or disprove due to too many "free" variables, a framework for building testable gage theories, disproven, or a good working approximation.  Someday someone will come 
up with a complete theory that is consistant with QM, but don't hold your breath.  Einstein worked on GR for decades, and I suspect that bettering it will take longer.  Even given an enivironment conducive to such research, and there are a few, we are tal
king about a phyicist devoting his whole working career to the project.  (This doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of phyicists trying, but the recent discovery that the cosmological constant is non-zero will mean starting over for most.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
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At 10:21 AM 8/19/1999 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
 
>   As for the notion
>that this photon mass is merely effective rather than real, that is a
>distinction which has always seemed rather silly to me. (Is the mass-energy
>equivalence merely "effective" rather than real?

    Good point, and the terminology has always bugged me.  In the case of particles with mass, there is one frame of reference in which that mass is minimal.  This is the rest mass of the particle.  But in the case of photons (and  any other "massless" pa
rticles which might exist ;-) their mass is constant in all reference frames.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

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The most easily accessible test of the validity of GR that I know of is the
correction that is made in GPS equipment for the time difference in the
satelite versus the time here on earth. This correction is necessary to get
the correct latitude and longitude. It is due to the fact that the
gravitational field at the satelite is significantly less then that at the
surface of the earth. I don't have my texts here at the office as I am in
the process of leaving, but I will try and look it up tonight.

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Robert I. Eachus[SMTP:eachus mitre.org]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, August 19, 1999 9:06 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: Eclipse
> 
> At 10:18 AM 8/19/1999 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> >However, physicists tell me many experiments after 1919 support the
> theory,
> >especially in high energy particle physics. For example, accelerated
> >particles last longer, which proves time dilation. I cannot judge this
> >issue, but they tell me that special relativity is a work-a-day tool and
> an
> >indispensable organizing principle, like evolution is to a biologist.
> 
>     Special relativity make lots of easily falsible predictions that, when
> tested hold true.  You don't get very far arguing with it.  But as the
> name says, it only applies to certain special cases, when you go outside
> that area, you are into general relativity.  General Relativity is,
> depending on which phyisict you ask, impossible to prove or disprove due
> to too many "free" variables, a framework for building testable gage
> theories, disproven, or a good working approximation.  Someday someone
> will come up with a complete theory that is consistant with QM, but don't
> hold your breath.  Einstein worked on GR for decades, and I suspect that
> bettering it will take longer.  Even given an enivironment conducive to
> such research, and there are a few, we are talking about a phyicist
> devoting his whole working career to the project.  (This doesn't mean that
> there aren't a lot of phyicists trying, but the recent discovery that the
> cosmological constant is non-zero will mean starting ov!
> er for most.)
> 
>                                         Robert I. Eachus
> 
> with Standard_Disclaimer;
> use  Standard_Disclaimer;
> function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 09:36:14 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: RE: Eclipse
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At 03:57 PM 8/19/99 +0100, Remi Cornwall wrote:

>How does the calculation go with GR Scott?

I don't know!  I just mentioned the problem to Puthoff and he knew all
about it!  He scribbled down a term...(1+v/c)/2...and said that for
slow-moving particles, you get the expected Newtonian deflection....but if
the particle is moving at c, you get twice that deflection.

Mitchell, in my opinion, it is vanishingly unlikely that the astronomers
making these observations would have failed to consider the possible
effects of a solar atmosphere.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 09:41:12 1999
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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

<snip>
 
> Mizuno is the soul of cooperation. If all cold fusion scientists acted the
> way he does, by now we would have cold fusion powered automobiles.

When I bought my Acura in 1989, I intended on my next car being
CF powered.  It's 10 years old next month.

Terry
<waiting patiently at 130,000 miles>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 09:48:14 1999
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Pardon my ignorance, but this must have something to do with 2 equations that appear to me to be in contradiction.

The formula for Kinetic Energy is:

KE = 1/2*(MV^2)

The formula for converting Mass into Energy is:

E = MC^2

where C = the speed of light.

Only light can move at the speed of light, but other things can approach this speed. At what point when an object approaches the speed of light does its energy change from 1/2(MV^2) to just (MV^2)?

Craig Haynie (Houston)

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; 'vortex-l@eskimo.com' <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 11:33 AM
Subject: RE: Eclipse


>At 03:57 PM 8/19/99 +0100, Remi Cornwall wrote:
>
>>How does the calculation go with GR Scott?
>
>I don't know!  I just mentioned the problem to Puthoff and he knew all
>about it!  He scribbled down a term...(1+v/c)/2...and said that for
>slow-moving particles, you get the expected Newtonian deflection....but if
>the particle is moving at c, you get twice that deflection.
>
>Mitchell, in my opinion, it is vanishingly unlikely that the astronomers
>making these observations would have failed to consider the possible
>effects of a solar atmosphere.
>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 09:52:17 1999
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 <37BBD017.34A7FD6D mccir3.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:46:13 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Eclipse
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>Thus if a calculation based
>>on Newtonian optics was within 50% based on 1919 data, it might be right on
>>the money based on 1999 data. Perhaps it is a subject worth revisiting!
>
>That is very interesting! I too have long wondered about this Newtonian
>light-bending claim. The other early evidence in support of the Special
>Theory was the Mitchelson Morely experiment. As we have discussed here,
>Trevor Pinch and others have raised doubts about this work.

***{Yes, Michelson himself totally rejected the idea that the MM experiment
proved the nonexistence of the aether. The reason: he was an adherent of
the entrained aether theory, which held that the earth's gravity caused it
to carry a humongous glob of aether along with it, as it made its way
around the sun (just as it carries the atmosphere along). Thus on the
earth's surface, there would have been very little "aether wind" to measure
in Michelson's lab, and when his experiment produced the result he
expected, he concluded that he had proved the entrained ether theory.
Result: that was his belief until his death. (Michelson never considered
the existence of the aether to be in question: there was simply too much
evidence from other sources supporting its existence. Electromagnetics, for
example, makes no sense whatever unless you postulate an invisible medium
that pervades all of space. Indeed, Maxwell's theory was *very explicitly*
derived from that premise.) --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>However, physicists tell me many experiments after 1919 support the theory,
>especially in high energy particle physics. For example, accelerated
>particles last longer, which proves time dilation.

***{All that has been demonstrated by these various experiments is that the
rate at which causal processes take place is inversely proportional to the
density of the aether in which those processes are occurring. Just as a man
cannot swim as rapidly in molasses as in water, so a clock cannot run as
fast in very dense aether as it can run in thin aether. Since aether has
mass, it is subject to the pull of gravitation, and, like the atmosphere,
becomes more dense as the surface of the gravitating mass is approached.
Thus the aether density is greatest near the surfaces of extremely massive
bodies, and clocks run slower there, as do many other causal processes.

While it is important to recognize that aether density influences the rates
of causal processes, this does not mean that "time is relative"--i.e., that
we can have no universal reference standard for time. Time is merely a
yardstick which man has created for the purpose of measuring motion. To
accomplish that measurement, we compare all irregular motions which we
encounter in the real world to the regular motion of the hands around the
face of a clock. Since the regular motion of a clock is just a yardstick
created by men for the purpose of measuring motion, and since yardsticks of
varying length are not suited to that purpose, it is important that we
agree to stipulations that will ensure that we all use the same yardstick.
To accomplish that, it is merely necessary that we specify the location of
the standard clock. I would suggest that the rate at which stationary
causal processes proceed at sea level on Earth ought to be our agreed to
reference for time. Given that stipulation, clocks located under different
conditions of aether density would simply be adjusted to indicate Earth
time. --Mitchell Jones}***

I cannot judge this
>issue, but they tell me that special relativity is a work-a-day tool and an
>indispensable organizing principle, like evolution is to a biologist.

***{It is a demonstrated physical fact that the rate at which causal
processes proceed is a function of the density of the aether in which they
are immersed, and that idea is an essential organizing principle. However,
to leap from such an insight to the conclusion that we can have no
universal reference standard for time is simply nonsense. Just as the
standard meter could be of any length, so long as everyone agrees to use
it, so the standard clock could be located anywhere, just as long as we all
agree to use it. We can have a universal reference standard for time
because we need it, and are capable of making the stipulations that are
necessary to bring such a reference into being. Against this simple fact,
all of the railings of relativists are of no consequence. --Mitchell
Jones}***

>
>- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 10:11:47 1999
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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:55:29 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: RE: Eclipse
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>The most easily accessible test of the validity of GR that I know of is the
>correction that is made in GPS equipment for the time difference in the
>satelite versus the time here on earth. This correction is necessary to get
>the correct latitude and longitude. It is due to the fact that the
>gravitational field at the satelite is significantly less then that at the
>surface of the earth. I don't have my texts here at the office as I am in
>the process of leaving, but I will try and look it up tonight.
>
>Hank

***{It's amusing that you bring that up. I remember a paper by Dr. Tom van
Flandern, who worked for the Naval Observatory for years, in which he
stated that the corrections used are strictly Newtonian. The reason: the GR
corrections do not work! (The paper in which he mentioned this was
published in Galilean Electrodynamics awhile back.) --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>> ----------
>> From: 	Robert I. Eachus[SMTP:eachus mitre.org]
>> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
>> Sent: 	Thursday, August 19, 1999 9:06 AM
>> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
>> Subject: 	Re: Eclipse
>>
>> At 10:18 AM 8/19/1999 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>>
>> >However, physicists tell me many experiments after 1919 support the
>> theory,
>> >especially in high energy particle physics. For example, accelerated
>> >particles last longer, which proves time dilation. I cannot judge this
>> >issue, but they tell me that special relativity is a work-a-day tool and
>> an
>> >indispensable organizing principle, like evolution is to a biologist.
>>
>>     Special relativity make lots of easily falsible predictions that, when
>> tested hold true.  You don't get very far arguing with it.  But as the
>> name says, it only applies to certain special cases, when you go outside
>> that area, you are into general relativity.  General Relativity is,
>> depending on which phyisict you ask, impossible to prove or disprove due
>> to too many "free" variables, a framework for building testable gage
>> theories, disproven, or a good working approximation.  Someday someone
>> will come up with a complete theory that is consistant with QM, but don't
>> hold your breath.  Einstein worked on GR for decades, and I suspect that
>> bettering it will take longer.  Even given an enivironment conducive to
>> such research, and there are a few, we are talking about a phyicist
>> devoting his whole working career to the project.  (This doesn't mean that
>> there aren't a lot of phyicists trying, but the recent discovery that the
>> cosmological constant is non-zero will mean starting ov!
>> er for most.)
>>
>>                                         Robert I. Eachus
>>
>> with Standard_Disclaimer;
>> use  Standard_Disclaimer;
>> function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
>>
>>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 10:11:51 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: RE: Eclipse
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Scott Little wrote:

>Mitchell, in my opinion, it is vanishingly unlikely that the astronomers
>making these observations would have failed to consider the possible
>effects of a solar atmosphere.

I do not think that is what Mitchell was saying. Of course they considered
the effects but it may be that in 1919 their knowlege of the solar
atmosphere was deficient, so perhaps their formulas (lae?) were wrong. The
data may need to be reexamined in the light of more recent knowledge of the
sun.

Trevor Pinch describes the 1919 solar eclipse data and it sounds like they
had to do a lot of tweaking. There were two observation points, Sobral and
Principe. At Sobral they managed to take 8 "good" quality plates (photo
exposures) at Sobral and 18 "poor" ones. At Principe they took only 2
"poor" plates. Pinch and Collins present a modern statistical treatment of
the results  which makes them sound rather iffy. I could quote parts of it
if anyone is interested.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 10:14:26 1999
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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:58:21 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: RE: Eclipse
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>At 03:57 PM 8/19/99 +0100, Remi Cornwall wrote:
>
>>How does the calculation go with GR Scott?
>
>I don't know!  I just mentioned the problem to Puthoff and he knew all
>about it!  He scribbled down a term...(1+v/c)/2...and said that for
>slow-moving particles, you get the expected Newtonian deflection....but if
>the particle is moving at c, you get twice that deflection.
>
>Mitchell, in my opinion, it is vanishingly unlikely that the astronomers
>making these observations would have failed to consider the possible
>effects of a solar atmosphere.

***{In my opinion, you should be as critical of generally accepted beliefs
as of unorthodox ones. The reason: conformity is an enormously powerful
force not merely in everyday life, but in science as well. --Mitchell
Jones}***

>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 10:30:37 1999
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References: <7bc2d74e.24ec6ddb aol.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 12:25:04 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: To Foam or Not to Foam
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>At 04:13 PM 8/18/1999 EDT, VCockeram aol.com wrote:
>
>>Got a treat here yesterday, a 10 million dollar business jet making
>>a belly landing at McCarran airport live on the evening news.
>>The pilot did a really beautiful job, no injuries to 6 adults and
>>two children after a flaming slide down runway 25L and just
>>some scraped and melted sheet metal that after a little body
>>work will surely fly again. The aircraft lost all hydraulics and was
>>unable to deploy landing gear and flaps
>
>    I was surprised that the didn't seem to have foamed the runway.  (The
>foam does help minimize damage to the plane, but the main goal is to
>prevent sparks which could ignite any remaining fuel.)

***{Yes, I wondered about that also. Could it be that the runway was too
short to use foam? (With foam, the plane will slide *a lot* farther--off
the end of a short runway and into the trees or buildings, perhaps? :-)
--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>                                        Robert I. Eachus
>
>with Standard_Disclaimer;
>use  Standard_Disclaimer;
>function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...

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 <01BEEA5B.9AFABE00 wst1>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 12:40:44 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: RE: Eclipse
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>Scott Little wrote:
>
>>Mitchell, in my opinion, it is vanishingly unlikely that the astronomers
>>making these observations would have failed to consider the possible
>>effects of a solar atmosphere.
>
>I do not think that is what Mitchell was saying. Of course they considered
>the effects but it may be that in 1919 their knowlege of the solar
>atmosphere was deficient, so perhaps their formulas (lae?) were wrong. The
>data may need to be reexamined in the light of more recent knowledge of the
>sun.

***{Correct. But, of course, there is another issue here--to wit: how
reasonable is it to suppose that no further work has been done on this
question in recent years, to bring the calculations in line with what is
presently known about the solar atmosphere? My suspicion (he can correct me
if I am wrong) is that Scott believes that this work has already been done.
I, on the other hand, believe that the pressures of conformity are so
massive in present-day "science" that few would *dare* to revisit these old
questions. (Once you get lumped with the "nut fringe" by questioning the
sacred "theory of relativity," your grant money dries up, and you can start
checking out other lines of work.) --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Trevor Pinch describes the 1919 solar eclipse data and it sounds like they
>had to do a lot of tweaking. There were two observation points, Sobral and
>Principe. At Sobral they managed to take 8 "good" quality plates (photo
>exposures) at Sobral and 18 "poor" ones. At Principe they took only 2
>"poor" plates. Pinch and Collins present a modern statistical treatment of
>the results  which makes them sound rather iffy. I could quote parts of it
>if anyone is interested.

***{Yes, please do so. It sounds very relevant to the topic. --MJ}***

>
>- Jed

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From: Remi Cornwall <r.o.cornwall city.ac.uk>
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Subject: RE: Eclipse
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Scott,
Yes Hal Putoff is a gifted theoretician. GR gets very involved. It would =
be nice to have a Feynman like account of it (not the bit tagged onto =
book 2) so that people below doc level can understand. I got a doorstop =
text in Texas by Misner, Thorne and Wheeler and its quite turgid. I =
guess one has to step up a level and just say 'that's how it is'. Anyway =
the basic formalism can be mastered. The number grind takes a little =
time to master.
Remi.
P.S. Hal did a lot of work on ESP in 70s. What became of it, is it on =
web? What does he work on these days? What are his conclusions about zpe =
etc.

-----Original Message-----
From:	Scott Little [SMTP:little eden.com]
Sent:	19 August 1999 17:34
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com; 'vortex-l@eskimo.com'
Subject:	RE: Eclipse

At 03:57 PM 8/19/99 +0100, Remi Cornwall wrote:

>How does the calculation go with GR Scott?

I don't know!  I just mentioned the problem to Puthoff and he knew all
about it!  He scribbled down a term...(1+v/c)/2...and said that for
slow-moving particles, you get the expected Newtonian deflection....but =
if
the particle is moving at c, you get twice that deflection.

Mitchell, in my opinion, it is vanishingly unlikely that the astronomers
making these observations would have failed to consider the possible
effects of a solar atmosphere.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)


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Mitchell Jones wrote:

<snip>

> ***{It's amusing that you bring that up. I remember a paper by Dr. Tom van
> Flandern, who worked for the Naval Observatory for years, in which he
> stated that the corrections used are strictly Newtonian. The reason: the GR
> corrections do not work! (The paper in which he mentioned this was
> published in Galilean Electrodynamics awhile back.) --Mitchell Jones}***

Tom has a web site at:

http://www.ldolphin.org/vanFlandern/

which has some of his articles.  I particularly like:

http://www.ldolphin.org/vanFlandern/gravityspeed.html

on how gravity must be superluminal.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 11:23:05 1999
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Mitchell,
According to Relativists, time is defined as that parameter between =
events which makes motion appear *simple* so that there are no psuedo =
forces.

In 'Gravitation' Misner, Thorne, Wheeler, they do this simple trick

Zero acc, so 0 =3D d^2x/dt^2 =3D d/dt(dT/dt.dx/dT)

=3D d^2T/dt^2.dx/dT + (dT/dt)^2.d^2x/dT^2

where T is our bad clock.

so F =3D m.d^2x/dT^2 =3D -m(dx/dT)(d^2T/dt^2) / (dT/dt)^2

if we have a bad clock, we invent forces. It's very compelling =
space-time viewpoint but I don't want to be blinded by it.
Remi.

>Mitchell Jones wrote:
[]  <snip>
 Time is merely a
yardstick which man has created for the purpose of measuring motion. To
accomplish that measurement, we compare all irregular motions which we
encounter in the real world to the regular motion of the hands around =
the
face of a clock.=20
[] =20


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Subject: RE: [Fwd: Doppler effect & Relativity questions]
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Vo,
Didn't anyone see this. I asked that question to a physicist and it was =
put in New Scientist about 3 years back. Where does the energy come from =
in blue shift, where does it go in redshift. I got blank from an expert. =
I don't think it's to do with gravitational pe either, it just goes or =
comes from - who knows?
Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From:	Jim Ostrowski [SMTP:jimostr ca-ois.com]
Sent:	18 August 1999 18:20
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	[Fwd: Doppler effect & Relativity questions]

 << Message: Doppler effect & Relativity questions >> 
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 11:47:57 1999
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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199908191838.NAA16122 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Doppler effect & Relativity questions]
In-Reply-To: <01BEEA78.B42EE5A0 wst1> from Remi Cornwall at "Aug 19, 99 07:26:14 pm"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:38:59 -0500 (CDT)
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> Where does the energy come from in blue shift, where does it go in redshift.

Where does the energy disappear to when you throw a ball backward off
a moving train.  Where does the energy come from when you throw a ball
forward off a moving train. (Relative to a stationary individual.)


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 12:18:06 1999
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Message-ID: <37BC57B4.5B2FD199 bellsouth.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:15:00 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Remi Cornwall wrote:
> 
> Mitchell,
> According to Relativists, time is defined as that parameter between events which makes motion appear *simple* so that there are no psuedo forces.

<snip>

I forget who said it; but, my favorite is:

"Time is what keeps everything from happening at once."

Terry

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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 14:06:11 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Eclipse
Resent-Message-ID: <"13lQK2.0.cF6.nb5lt" mx1>
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> ***{It's amusing that you bring that up. I remember a paper by Dr. Tom van
>> Flandern, who worked for the Naval Observatory for years, in which he
>> stated that the corrections used are strictly Newtonian. The reason: the GR
>> corrections do not work! (The paper in which he mentioned this was
>> published in Galilean Electrodynamics awhile back.) --Mitchell Jones}***
>
>Tom has a web site at:
>
>http://www.ldolphin.org/vanFlandern/
>
>which has some of his articles.  I particularly like:
>
>http://www.ldolphin.org/vanFlandern/gravityspeed.html
>
>on how gravity must be superluminal.

***{I checked it out. Excellent stuff. Everybody on vortex should
familiarize themselves with the evidence about the speed of gravity. As I
mentioned in a post the other day, Laplace proved way back in 1804 that, in
order for the planets to stay in their orbits, gravity must propagate at
many millions of times the speed of light. (See his *Mechanique Celeste*
for the details.) As I noted in a paper that I published almost a decade
ago, Einstein's "universal speed limit" was refuted before his grandfather
was a gleam in his great grandfather's eye! :-) --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 12:40:34 1999
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: effctv perm. wrong question
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:32:19 -0400
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Hi Remi, you wrote:
>
>The last paragraph has me a little confused. You know how it is with me:
>I take a subject right down to first principles, build it up again to
>make sure I understand.
-
Here is the last paragraph again:
-
>> One more observation, most people think of high mu as the high
>> energy case, however, at a given field (gauss) the available
>> electrical output energy is inversely proportional to mu.
>> High output energy can often be generated best when the mu of
>> a section of a series magnetic circuit is lowered !!! while a
>> shorted coil holds the flux constant.
-
This is entirely from first principles and it is critical to
understand, but is very counterintuitive at first. Use the standard expressions
to calculate the field energy in an air gap of a series high mu
magnetic circuit and compare it to the energy in the rest of the high mu
circuit. I call the standard definition the "available output energy"
to avoid confusion with my nonstandard energy definitions which correspond more
closely with the intuitive idea that high magnetic energy is present
in high mu materials. If you intend to output electrical energy from
your coil, you will find that the available output energy will be found
primarily in the low mu sections of your magnetic circuit. Why isn't a
high mu or high field gain magnetic circuit intrinsically overunity?
Well, perhaps in some real sense it is, but from an available output
energy point of view it is not.
Regards,
George
-
George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
1924 US Hwy 22 East            Bound Brook NJ 08805



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 12:44:30 1999
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On 19-Aug-99, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>> At 04:13 PM 8/18/1999 EDT, VCockeram aol.com wrote:
>> 
>>> Got a treat here yesterday, a 10 million dollar business jet making
>>> a belly landing at McCarran airport live on the evening news.
>>> The pilot did a really beautiful job, no injuries to 6 adults and
>>> two children after a flaming slide down runway 25L and just
>>> some scraped and melted sheet metal that after a little body
>>> work will surely fly again. The aircraft lost all hydraulics and was
>>> unable to deploy landing gear and flaps
>> 
>>    I was surprised that the didn't seem to have foamed the runway.  (The
>> foam does help minimize damage to the plane, but the main goal is to
>> prevent sparks which could ignite any remaining fuel.)

In my experience it is up to the pilot to decide if he wants foam or not. I personally would have used it. It was an Hawker HS125 which has some pretty good sized skid ribs on the bottom to grind off in this kind of landing. The aux gear lowering method o
n this AC is by hand pump so the hyd. leak must have been in the gear system since he couldn't get it down.  I doubt that the sliding distance on foam was a factor in not using it McCarran has plenty long runways (12000+ ft). Maybe he didn't want to wait.
 He got it down and stopped on the runway with no injuries so I guess we shouldn't second guess him.

Ron
Ex (Hs125 & misc. other jet) pilot
> 
> ***{Yes, I wondered about that also. Could it be that the runway was too
> short to use foam? (With foam, the plane will slide *a lot* farther--off
> the end of a short runway and into the trees or buildings, perhaps? :-)
> --Mitchell Jones}***
> 
>> 
>>                                        Robert I. Eachus
>> 
>> with Standard_Disclaimer;
>> use  Standard_Disclaimer;
>> function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
> 
Regards

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 12:48:27 1999
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:46:16 EDT
Subject: Re: To Foam or Not to Foam
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In a message dated 8/19/99 10:27:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mjones jump.net 
writes:

> ***{Yes, I wondered about that also. Could it be that the runway was too
>  short to use foam? (With foam, the plane will slide *a lot* farther--off
>  the end of a short runway and into the trees or buildings, perhaps? :-)
>  --Mitchell Jones}***

I incorrectly stated the landing was on RWY 25L. It
was RWY 19L, length 9776 feet which ends basically at
Sunset Road at the South end of the airport.Post office and aviation 
businesses there. Aircraft stopped
at intersection of 25R and 19L. I can say there is
very little runway 19 beyond that intersection,maybe 150 yards or so!
Foam would have put him somewhere near the parcel pickup window I think. 
There was very little wind
that day but what there was, was right down the runway.  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 12:52:34 1999
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Subject: Re: To Foam or not to Foam
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In a message dated 8/19/99 8:46:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, eachus mitre.org 
writes:
>  I was surprised that the didn't seem to have foamed the runway.  (The foam 
> does help minimize damage to the plane, but the main goal is to prevent 
> sparks which could ignite any remaining fuel.)
>  
>                                          Robert I. Eachus
  

Me too.  The landing was covered from the air by the
KTNV (ABC) traffic helicopter which flew parallel
to the runway and had a perfect view of the approach
and landing (slide). Commentary was provided by the 
station meteorologist who is also a licensed commercial pilot.
 According to him there was a time constraint on foaming the runway,why,I do 
not know.
 I am a pilot also and when I saw the approach sans flaps I said 'uh oh,this 
is not good.(TV comment on this, "Maybe he didn't want to bend the flaps.")
 According to a follow up story the pilot had no hydraulics due to a tire 
blowing on takeoff
somewhere in Kansas. He was unable to manually crank the landing gear down. 
 He cut engines/electrical at 30 feet and that sucker slid for about a mile 
with much flame trailing.
 After the aircraft stopped there was a small fire
in the rear under the tail section that was quickly extinguished by the foam 
trucks.
I got it all on videotape too.  

Vince
Las Vegas

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 16:34:28 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 19:31:44 EDT
Subject: Re: H2K calibration with H2 fill
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Vince, 

Welcome back.  Here's hoping that the temperature in Las Vegas stays under 
100 deg F for the rest of the summer, plus September.

By the way, how much would it cost to air-condition your garage?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 18:58:39 1999
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Remi wrote:

I asked that question to a physicist and it was 
put in New Scientist about 3 years back.
Where does the energy come from in blue shift,
where does it go in redshift. I got blank from an expert. 
I don't think it's to do with gravitational pe either,
it just goes or comes from - who knows?

Hi Remi,

Halton Arp, in "Seeing Red", says that we see blue shift 
when electrons, which are more massive than the electrons
in our solar system, move from one orbital to amother.
We see red shift when electrons, which are less massive
than the electrons in our solar system, move from one
orbital to amother.  More massive electrons emit more
energy when they jump.

Jack Smith


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Subject: Re: Eclipse
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 04:00:59 GMT
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On Thu, 19 Aug 1999 12:14:34 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote:

>At 10:21 AM 8/19/1999 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
>>   As for the notion
>>that this photon mass is merely effective rather than real, that is a
>>distinction which has always seemed rather silly to me. (Is the mass-energy
>>equivalence merely "effective" rather than real?
>
>    Good point, and the terminology has always bugged me.  In the case of particles with mass, there is one frame of reference in which that mass is minimal.  This is the rest mass of the particle.  But in the case of photons (and  any other "massless" p
articles which might exist ;-) their mass is constant in all reference frames.

If the frequency changes dependant upon reference frame (doppler
effect), then surely the mass is also dependant upon reference frame.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 21:31:37 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: How's Hamdi?
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>>Vo,
>>I don't know his private email but is Hamdi okay?
>>Remi.
>
>I thought I read that he was going on vacation not too long ago, and don't
>remember if I read that he returned.  I just saw the report on the
>earthquake myself, so it is quite possible that the phone lines are down or
>a major part of the internet in that area is inaccessable.  We'll just have
>to wait and hope for the best, unless there is someone in the area that can
>shed more light on the subject.

***{I know from private e-mail that Hamdi lives in the Istanbul area. Based
on his technical orientation, I assume that he lives in an upper-class,
high-tech area. If so, that means he probably lives in the eastern suburbs
of Istanbul, where fully one third of Turkey's GNP is produced. Horribly,
that is precisely where the epicenter of the earthquake occurred. Since he
has not replied to an e-mail that I sent to him shortly after the
earthquake occurred, there may be real cause to worry. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Knuke
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 19 23:38:36 1999
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>***{I know from private e-mail that Hamdi lives in the Istanbul area. Based
>on his technical orientation, I assume that he lives in an upper-class,
>high-tech area. If so, that means he probably lives in the eastern suburbs
>of Istanbul, where fully one third of Turkey's GNP is produced. Horribly,
>that is precisely where the epicenter of the earthquake occurred. Since he
>has not replied to an e-mail that I sent to him shortly after the
>earthquake occurred, there may be real cause to worry. --Mitchell Jones}***

Of course, you are right, but let's hope not.  Both my Uncle and my cousin
were in downtown San Fran when one of the big earthquakes hit.  They were in
different parts of the town on business, but both areas were equally
affected.  Both had cell phones and lived outside the city.  When the
earthquake was over, the first thing my uncle did was call my aunt to let
her know he was alright, then he tiptoed through the rubble and caught a cab
out of the city.  My cousin didn't even think to call, he just started
helping dig out survivors, and didn't stop for the next three days.  When it
finally did dawn on him that he had a wife and family that just might be
worried about him, he called home.  Of course, he was nearly strangled by my
aunt and his wife.

Obviously, every available, able-bodied survivor, and that would be the
majority of people there, is too busy to read their e-mail.  Let's hope
Hamdi is one of those.

Knuke
 
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 00:09:15 1999
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 03:05:38 EDT
Subject: Re: H2K calibration with H2 fill
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In a message dated 8/19/99 4:34:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Tstolper aol.com 
writes:

> By the way, how much would it cost to air-condition your garage?
>  
>  Tom Stolper

 Around 700 to 1000 dollars for AC or 400 to 600 for
a swamp cooler. No plans to do either though.

 I do the setup for a run in the evening, assembling
the quartz tube,electrodes and such and run the vacuum pump for 3 hours or 
so.  Early next morning
(6:30 AM) I start up the vacuum pump again and begin the run at about 9:30. 
Usually completed in 2 hours and I spend the afternoon entering run data into 
the Lotus spreadsheet and the lab notebook.
 I have done 14 calibration runs and have about 5 more to complete.
 I contacted Simpson Electric Co. today                                       
                                              
  http://www.simpsonelectric.com/
and inquired about direct reading analog wattmeters.
 I want to be able to run the tube at a set wattage input and it's hard to do 
that now as I have to do the math with the two digital meters.
 Would be much easier with a direct reading wattmeter instead of juggling 
vacuum valves, variacs, lab notes and a calculator.
 Simpson will be sending me their catalogs soon, I 
hope. Also need to order some K metal from Strem Chemicals as the stuff Scott 
sent me does not look too good any more. 

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas Nevada
702-254-2122


    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 00:13:24 1999
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Subject: Re: Eclipse
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Mitchell Jones wrote:
>Terry Blanton wrote:
>>Tom has a web site at:
>>http://www.ldolphin.org/vanFlandern/
>>which has some of his articles.  I particularly like:
>>http://www.ldolphin.org/vanFlandern/gravityspeed.html
>>on how gravity must be superluminal.
>
>***{I checked it out. Excellent stuff. Everybody on vortex should
>familiarize themselves with the evidence about the speed of gravity.
>...

Since I took an interest in this particular paper which vanFlandern
managed to get published in Physics Letters A, I thought I should
pass on what I found out.

Firstly I wish to say that I found his paper quite convincing because
it answered answered all my intuitive doubts.  However I found it hard
to believe that it had not been considered by those people who make a
professional career of delving into such questions. After all two point
masses in orbit around each other is about the simplest GR problem
imaginable!  So I asked around and ended up emailing Tibault Damour
who is one of, if not _the_ world expert on the area.  As he had not
read the paper, I described it as best I could pointing out that
vanFlandern had considered the first order gravito-magnetic effect
in which the electromagnetic analogy allows that the field seen by
linearly moving charges is the same as if it was propagated
instananeously.

He replied that from my description, he did not need or want to
spend any time on it.  They have derived long ago (see any of his
review papers on the problem of motion) the equations of motion of
binary systems, including all retardation and aberration effects
and they have shown that retardation effects are of order (v/c)^5
fractional corrections to Newton [Newton being instantaneous
propagation and (v/c)^5 being a _very_ small number - J.W].
This agrees to 10^-3 with pulsar data and proves that gravity
propagates with velocity = c.

I thought I would take a look at one of his review papers and came
up with the following reference (there are many others however) :-

Title:  General relativity and experiment: a brief review
Author:  Damour-T
Source:  Classical-and-Quantum-Gravity. vol.9, suppl.; 1992; p.55-9
Publication Year:  1992
Language:  English
Abstract:  The author gives a brief review of theory and experimental
work in general relativity. He goes from Galileo's work on gravity
to Newton's work and on to Einstein's Equivalence Principle.

I haven't had time to look further into it, but I am fairly confident
that vanFlandern got it wrong.  What I find rather surprising is that
it got past peer review - which is there for the very purpose of
avoiding having such embarrassingly wrong things published.

I expect quite a few members of this list would strongly disagree with
this last paragraph.  But I certainly wouldn't be prepared to argue
about it unless I had at least gone through the derivations of Damour
(which vanFlandern doesn't even seem to have been aware of!) and found
a mistake or misapplication.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 01:16:07 1999
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Subject: Re: Allais effect, eclipse pendulum anomaly 
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Scott wrote:
>... Allais observed really large perturbations of his
>pendulum...perturbations that started suddenly and stopped almost as
>suddenly in synchrony with the eclipse.  At the peak of the 1954 eclipse,
>his pendulum was swinging in a plane that was some 11 degrees (ordinary
>degrees) rotated from its expected swing plane.  By the end of the eclipse
>it had more-or-less returned to its expected position!
>
>The significance of Allais' result is complicated by his queer pendulum.
>It had a deliberately anisotropic support that prevented full rotation
>(unlike Foucault's pendulum).  I'd expect such a pendulum to just precess
>around until the Foucault precession "force" was balanced with an opposite
>force from the support.  However, for some reason, it's swing plane
>continually precessed back and forth symmetrically about the neutral axis
>(i.e. the plane preferred by the support) more-or-less sinusoidally with a
>period of about 24.9 hours and a p-p amplitude of about 50 degrees!  In
>other words, half the time, it was precessing opposite to the "Foucault
>direction". At the time of the 1954 eclipse it was heading in the Foucault
>direction.
>
>The experiment was apparently very carefully conducted.  I wonder if anyone
>has replicated Allais' observations.

Thanks for pointing out the unusualness of Allais's pendulum Scott - it
doesn't seem to be common knowledge.  I became very interested in this
experimental area after reading Allais's papers kindly provided by Fred
- although the picture resolution was so bad I can't make out what the
pendulum support is like exactly.  He says that the "pivot" was a
hardened plate sitting on a ball bearing (the ball of which was changed
for every 14 minute swing down and the plate changed every week to avoid
systematic effects).  He allowed 6 minutes for these changes before each
new reading every 20 minutes - including tying a new thread on ready to
burn for the next release!).  I don't know how he achieved his
anisotropy of elasticity - it may have been that under load, the
plate that the ball was sitting on had a slightly greater concavity in
one horizontal direction than the other - for instance by supporting it
wider in one direction than the other.  In any case I would guess that
since it was a ball on a surface, the equilibrium direction at which
the Foucault effect (tending to turn the pendulum) balances the
anisotropy (tending to restore it to a particular direction) is very
sensitive to any tilt in the surface of the plate and thus also in the
surface of the earth.

And this seems to me to provide an explanation in some degree of the
24 hour (solar), and 25 hour (lunar) anomalous oscillations which he
measured.  (It is well known that the tidal effects of the sun and moon
cause the earths crust to rise and fall a metre or so daily and
produce tilts in the earths surface with these periods.)  In fact this
effect is listed as item 1 in his list of possible explanations.  It
is ruled out (along with all the others) because the measured value
of the 24 hour and 25 hour components have very similar magnitudes and
are much larger than the 12 and 12.5hr components.  I can't say I
follow this logic because I don't know much about the relative
amplitudes of the earth tides and their sub-harmonics - and he really
doesn't expand on it at all.  Also it seems to me from his traces,
that there is some hysterisis in the preferred angle of swing of
his pendulum - it either sits up around the 160 degree mark, or drops
right down below 120 degrees.  It spends very little time between 120
and 140.  If there is some hysterisis, then that may explain why the
amplitude of the various components are not what is expected - a
small 24 and/or 25 hour variation gets thresholded into a full
amplitude swing from one preferred position to the other.

It also seems reasonable to suppose that the sudden differential
temperature drop on the surface of the earth from the eclipse shadow
could also cause a slight tilt which would be measured by such a
sensitive instrument as Allais's anisotropic pendulum. (It would
also explain a sudden change in direction of a very long Foucault
pendulum suspended in a building which has the sun shining more
on one side than the other).  However it doesn't explain the other
effects that have been measured - the pendulum period change and
Saxl's torsional pendulum for instance.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 02:32:53 1999
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Mitchell,
It just may be with so much going on that he has more pressing things to
do than partake in vortex. Let's hope that's the case. Let's hope with
above average earnings that he bought a well constructed dwelling.

Slightly digressing, I know that satelites can measure sub-millimeter
earth disturbances - for instance one can watch the Earth buckle as a
volcano's magma chamber fills. In this day and age, is it not possible to
predict earthquakes with a similar system?
Remi.


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Thank you George.
I might contact you and John off line with an idea about the slurry. It's
not for public post yet.
Remi.


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-----Original Message-----
From:	Terry Blanton [SMTP:commengr bellsouth.net]

I forget who said it; but, my favorite is:

"Time is what keeps everything from happening at once."

Terry,
With no offence to peoples of Irish ancestories (I'm ethnic minority)
that sounds Irish!

It reminds me of the one about two chaps crossing the Irish sea. One says
to the other 'What a lot of water!' and the other says 'Aye, and that's
just the top of it.'

Remi.

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Mitchell Jones wrote:

Terry Blanton wrote:
Tom has a web site at:
http://www.ldolphin.org/vanFlandern/
which has some of his articles.  I particularly like:
http://www.ldolphin.org/vanFlandern/gravityspeed.html
on how gravity must be superluminal.

John Winterflood wrote:

I asked around and ended up emailing Tibault Damour
who is one of, if not _the_ world expert on the area.  As he had not
read the paper, I described it as best I could pointing out that
vanFlandern had considered the first order gravito-magnetic effect
in which the electromagnetic analogy allows that the field seen by
linearly moving charges is the same as if it was propagated
instananeously ...

I haven't had time to look further into it, but I am fairly confident
that vanFlandern got it wrong ...  
I expect quite a few members of this list would strongly disagree with
this last paragraph.  But I certainly wouldn't be prepared to argue
about it unless I had at least gone through the DERIVATIONS of Damour
(which vanFlandern doesn't even seem to have been aware of!) and found
a mistake or misapplication.

Hi John,

Derivations are entertaining, but Democritus got
it right when he said "All that exists are atoms
[not-cuttable things] and the void.  All else is speculation
[and design equations]."  So is any particular design equation
useful (leading to invention, discovery, and further design
equations)?  Does the design equation relate to the experience
of our senses (subjective satisfaction)?

I know of no experiment that finds a difference between inertial
mass and gravitational mass.  So Mach's theory of mass (quoting
form Halton Arp's "Seeing Red",p. 227)
"...when the subway stops with a jerk, it is the distant stars
that throw you down..." is also a theory of gravity.  My
experience is that gravity is instantaneous, and I have never
heard of an experiment to directly determine the speed of gravity.

Where might Tibault Damour's "gravity at the speed of light"
(not subjectively satisfying -- in fact, far-fetched) come in?
On page 108 of "Seeing Red", Arp writes "In 1964,
Fred Hoyle and Jayant Narlikar proposed ... a theory of
mass which had its origin in Mach's principle ... 
As time goes on it [the electron] receives signals
from a volume of space that enlarges as the velocity of light ...
Its mass grows in proportion to the number and strength of the
signals it receives."

Jack Smith


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Subject: Re: H2K calibration with H2 fill
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At 03:05 AM 8/20/99 EDT, VCockeram aol.com wrote:

> I contacted Simpson Electric Co. today
   
>  http://www.simpsonelectric.com/
>and inquired about direct reading analog wattmeters.

Ohio Semitronics makes them, too...modules that produce an analog voltage
proportional to wattage consumed by the load.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 06:26:32 1999
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Subject: Re: Allais effect, eclipse pendulum anomaly 
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 <199908150505.SM00414 [192.168.0.2]>
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At 04:10 PM 8/20/99 +0800, John Winterflood wrote:

>I don't know how he achieved his
>anisotropy of elasticity - it may have been that under load, the
>plate that the ball was sitting on had a slightly greater concavity in
>one horizontal direction than the other - for instance by supporting it
>wider in one direction than the other.

It's not explained but your hypothesis sounds reasonable.

>In any case I would guess that
>since it was a ball on a surface, the equilibrium direction at which
>the Foucault effect (tending to turn the pendulum) balances the
>anisotropy (tending to restore it to a particular direction) is very
>sensitive to any tilt in the surface of the plate and thus also in the
>surface of the earth.

Indeed.  It makes me wonder if the peculiar performance of the pendulum
during the eclipse was caused by all the people gathering in unusual
locations around his building staring at the eclipse.

>(It is well known that the tidal effects of the sun and moon
>cause the earths crust to rise and fall a metre or so daily and
>produce tilts in the earths surface with these periods.)

Wow!  Would that affect things as far inland as Paris?

>It also seems reasonable to suppose that the sudden differential
>temperature drop on the surface of the earth from the eclipse shadow
>could also cause a slight tilt which would be measured by such a
>sensitive instrument as Allais's anisotropic pendulum.

Another good hypothesis.


Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 07:40:22 1999
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Here are some extensive quotes from: H. Collins and T. Pinch, "The Golum -
what everyone should know about science," (Cambridge University Press,
1993), p. 49 - 51. This does not inspire confidence in the 1919 results. I
would dismiss cold fusion results as ambiguous as these, and skeptics would
have a field day attacking them. (Needless to say, many published cold
fusion experiments are as bad as this, and should be dismissed.)


. . . From his two poor plates Eddington calculated that the displacement
at the edge of the sun would be between 1.31 and 1.91 seconds.

We can convert the 'probable error' calculations of the two groups into the
modern langauge of 'standard deviations', and interpolate a standard
deviation for the Sobral astrographic. For the Sobral observations the
standard deviations are 0.178 for the good plates and 0.48 for the
astrographic, while in the case of Eddington's plates the standard
deviation is 0.444. (These are the calculations of John Earman and Clark
Glymour.) A modern treatment would suggest that, assuming the measurement
errors were distributed randomly, there is a 10% chance that the true
answer lies further from the mean measurement than 1.5 standard deviations
either side. With this in mind, let us sum up what we have so far, giving
the 1.5 standard deviation intervals:

10% Confidence intervals for the observations at Sobral and Principe

			Low                  High
			bound      Mean      bound

Sobral
  8 good plates       1.713      1.98      2.247
 18 poor plates       0.140      0.86      1.580
Principe
 2 poor plates        0.944      1.62      2.276


If we forget about the theory and the derivations, and pretend that we are
making measurements in ignorance of the hypothesis -- which is, after all,
what we do when we do 'double blind testing' for the effectiveness of drugs
or whatever -- what would we conclude? We might argue that the two sets of
poor plates cancel each other out, and that the remaining evidence showed
that the displacement was higher than 1.7. Or, we might say that the eight
good plates from Sobral were compatible with a displacement from just above
1.7 seconds to just below 2.3, Eddington's two poor plates were compatible
with shifts from just above 0.9 to just below 2.3, while the poor Sobral
plates were compatible with shifts from near zero to just below 1.6. In
either case, it would be difficult to be able to provide a clear answer.
Nevertheless, on 6 November 1919, the Astronomer Royal announced that the
observations had confirmed Einstein's theory.


Interpretation of the results

Even to have the results bear upon the question it had to be established
that there were only three horses in the race: no deflection, the Newtonian
deflection, or the Einsteinian deflection. If other possible displacements
had been present in the 'hypothesis space' then the evidence would be
likely to give stronger confirmation to one or other of them. . . .  There
were other contenders at the time, but the rhetoric of the debate excluded
them and presented the test as deciding between only the three
possibilities: 0.0, 0.8 and 1.7.

Now let all the other horses in the race be scratched at the post. Do the
results come down on Einstein's side in an unambiguous way? The answer is
that they do not. To make the observations come out to support Einstein,
Eddington and the others took the Sobral 4-inch results as the main finding
and used the two Principe plates as supporting evidence while ignoring the
18 plates taken by the Sobral astrographic. In the debate which followed
the Astronomer Royal's announcement, it appears that issues of authority
were much to the fore. On 6 November 1919, Sir Joseph Thomson, the
President of the Royal Society, chaired a meeting at which he remarked: 'It
is difficult for the audience to weigh fully the meaning of the figures
that have been put before us, but the Astronomer Royal and Professor
Eddington have studied the material carefully, and they regard the evidence
as decisively in favour of the larger value for the displacement' (quoted
in Earman and Glymour, 1980, p. 77).

In 1923, however, an American commentator, W. Campbell, wrote:

	Professor Eddington was inclined to assign considerable weight
	to the African determination, but, as the few images on his
	small number of astrographic plates were not so good as those on
	the astrographic plates secured in Brazil, and the results from
	the latter were given almost negligible weight, the logic of the
	situation does not seem entirely clear.

	(Quoted in Earman and Glymour, 1980, p. 78)

Eddington justified ignoring the Sobral astrographic results by claiming
that they suffered from 'systematic error' . . . It appears, however, that
at the time he was unable to educe any convincing evidence to show that
this was the case.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 07:42:04 1999
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Subject: Unidentified subject should have been: 1919 eclipse study
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Forgot to write title . . .

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 08:58:37 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
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Subject: RE: effctv perm. wrong question
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Consider the analogy with an electrical circuit. mu is analogous to
conductance, B with current and H with voltage. Hi mu is low resistance,
like the wiring in your house. A lamp is like the airgap. Most power
dissipated in the lamp.

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	George Holz[SMTP:george varisys.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, August 19, 1999 12:32 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: effctv perm. wrong question
> 
> Hi Remi, you wrote:
> >
> >The last paragraph has me a little confused. You know how it is with me:
> >I take a subject right down to first principles, build it up again to
> >make sure I understand.
> -
> Here is the last paragraph again:
> -
> >> One more observation, most people think of high mu as the high
> >> energy case, however, at a given field (gauss) the available
> >> electrical output energy is inversely proportional to mu.
> >> High output energy can often be generated best when the mu of
> >> a section of a series magnetic circuit is lowered !!! while a
> >> shorted coil holds the flux constant.
> -
> This is entirely from first principles and it is critical to
> understand, but is very counterintuitive at first. Use the standard
> expressions
> to calculate the field energy in an air gap of a series high mu
> magnetic circuit and compare it to the energy in the rest of the high mu
> circuit. I call the standard definition the "available output energy"
> to avoid confusion with my nonstandard energy definitions which correspond
> more
> closely with the intuitive idea that high magnetic energy is present
> in high mu materials. If you intend to output electrical energy from
> your coil, you will find that the available output energy will be found
> primarily in the low mu sections of your magnetic circuit. Why isn't a
> high mu or high field gain magnetic circuit intrinsically overunity?
> Well, perhaps in some real sense it is, but from an available output
> energy point of view it is not.
> Regards,
> George
> -
> George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
> 732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
> 1924 US Hwy 22 East            Bound Brook NJ 08805
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 10:59:53 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>, Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Hamdi... Please Write to Us of Vortex
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	Dear Hamdi,

	We all ask of you at Vortex, hope you are well.

	Hamdi:  This is John Schnurer ... we still have a number of
communications about physics we have not completed.  If you have allowed
yourself to get hurt or worse in the Earthquake I may be FORCED to come to
your part of the world and MAKE you eat three or four partially cooked
pancakes ....
	DO NOT make me have to do this....  Please write to vortex, and
let us all know you are well.

			Your friend,

			John Schnurer

	PS:
	Is there anything you need?  Can we at Vortex help you or your
country's people in your time of trouble?


				John

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 11:09:34 1999
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Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 14:08:24 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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His ISP is still active at:

http://www.verisoft.com.tr/info.html

Terry

John Schnurer wrote:
> 
>         Dear Hamdi,
> 
>         We all ask of you at Vortex, hope you are well.
> 
>         Hamdi:  This is John Schnurer ... we still have a number of
> communications about physics we have not completed.  If you have allowed
> yourself to get hurt or worse in the Earthquake I may be FORCED to come to
> your part of the world and MAKE you eat three or four partially cooked
> pancakes ....
>         DO NOT make me have to do this....  Please write to vortex, and
> let us all know you are well.
> 
>                         Your friend,
> 
>                         John Schnurer
> 
>         PS:
>         Is there anything you need?  Can we at Vortex help you or your
> country's people in your time of trouble?
> 
>                                 John

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 11:46:00 1999
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From: "R. Wormus" <rwormus lock-load.com>
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Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 12:32:35 -0600
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Subject: Physicist E.J. Post on QM
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Vorts,
>From the R.M. Kiehn website: 
    http://www22.pair.com/csdc/car/carhomep.htm

The papers by Jan Post are illuminating Re: QM as currently applied and should be especially appreciated by Mitchell Jones as non-classical methods are shown to be inappropriate for discrete systems.

See:

Mathematical Alchemy in Physics. 
    http://www22.pair.com/csdc/pd2/pd2fre48.htm

Copenhagen's Single System is Out of Order 
    http://www22.pair.com/csdc/pd2/pd2fre41.htm

Ron

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 12:50:19 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: INSTRUCTIONS FOR LIFE (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 15:51:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: INSTRUCTIONS FOR LIFE



	Add to this list.... I have, my additions have no numbers
	I sort of add to it as I read through it ... 

	There is no 'rule' that you can not add again and again ... please
send the ammended versions back to me and I will mash them all together.
	Don't restrict yourself ... and, if you want, you might put up
some of the addendums as children versions.

	Thanks,

			John Herman Schnurer				



> >
> >1. Give people more than they expect and do it cheerfully.
	If you get too much change from a teller or clerk, please return
it.  A short till causes REAL trouble for these people.

> >2. Memorize your favorite poem.
	Recite the poem to children, seniors and others.

	You never stand so tall as when you bend to aid children.
	You are never so strong as when you bend your effort to help a
senior.
	Hold doors for ladies and seniors.
	Respect all, especially seniors and children.

> >3. Don't believe all you hear, spend all you have or sleep all you want.
> >Do not believe it just because it:
		is in print
		you saw it on TV or heard it on the radio
		be especially careful about information from Internet

	Any time you get information from outside source that you were not
personally and directly there to verify, check it out.
	Check information from sources which agree, dis agree and from
small origins.  The Enquirer with a circulation of 100s of thousands does
not make it right.

> >4. When you say, "I love you," mean it.
	It is OK to sing love songs.
> >5. When you say, "I'm sorry," look the person in the eye.
> >	It is OK to ask how you can help.
> >6. Be engaged at least six months before you get married.
> >
> >7. Believe in love at first sight.
	Act on impulses to do good works.
	Act on impulses to give praise.
	Be espeically on the look out for ways to praise children.
	Praise those who are poor, are ill, are handicapped.
	PAY ATTENTION to those who others ignore.
> >
> >8. Never laugh at anyone's dreams. People who don't have dreams don't
> >have much.
> >
	The most valuable information often comes from the most unexpected
sources.

	CARE. 
	The INSTANT you think or say "I don't care"... take the thought
and concept, discharge it with GREAT FORCE, straight up into the air and
say "God, take this away, never to return."

	9. Love deeply and passionately. You might get hurt but it's the only
> >way to live life completely.
> >
	Bless your loved ones.
	Bless your enemies.
	Bless complete strangers.

	Where it causes no damage or pain, come to know strangers and make
them into acquaintances.

~~~~~~~~~~~`  mark~~~~~~~~~~~

> >10. In disagreements, fight fairly. No name calling.
> >
> >11.     Don't judge people by their relatives.
> >
> >12.     Talk slowly but think quickly.
> >
> >13.     When someone asks you a question you don't want to answer, smile
> >and ask, "Why do you want to know?"
> >
> >14. Remember that great love and great achievements involve great risk.
> >
> >15. Say "bless you" when you hear someone sneeze.
> >
> >16. When you lose, don't lose the lesson.
> >
> >17. Remember the three R's: Respect for self;
> >    Respect for others; Responsibility for all your actions.
> >
> >18. Don't let a little dispute injure a great friendship.
> >
> >19. When you realize you've made a mistake, take immediate steps to
> >correct it.
> >
> >20. Smile when picking up the phone. The caller will hear it in your
voice.
> >
> >21. Marry a man/woman you love to talk to. As you get older, their
> >conversational skills will be as important as any other.
> >
> >22. Spend some time alone.
> >
> >23. Open your arms to change, but don't let go of your values.
> >
> >24. Remember that silence is sometimes the best answer.
> >
> >25. Read more books and watch less TV.
> >
> >26. Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back,
> >you'll get to enjoy it a second time.
> >
> >27. Trust in God but lock your car.
> >
> >28. A loving atmosphere in your home is so important. Do all you can to
> >create a tranquil harmonious home.
> >
> >29. In disagreements with loved ones, deal with the current situation.
> >Don't bring up the past.
> >
> >30. Read between the lines.
> >
> >31. Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality.
> >
> >32. Be gentle with the earth.
> >
> >33. Pray. There's immeasurable power in it.
> >
> >34. Never interrupt when you are being flattered.
> >
> >35. Mind your own business.
> >
> >36. Don't trust a man/woman who doesn't close his/her eyes when you
kiss.
> >
> >37. Once a year, go someplace you've never been before.
> >
> >38. If you make a lot of money, put it to use helping others while you
> >are living. That is wealth's greatest satisfaction.
> >
> >39. Remember that not getting what you want is sometimes a stroke of
luck.
> >
> >40. Learn the rules then break some.
> >
> >41. Remember that the best relationship is one where your love for each
> >other is greater than your need for each other.
> >
> >42. Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.
> >
> >43. Remember that your character is your destiny.
> >
> >44. Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 13:16:01 1999
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 <37BC4972.E404DC0 bellsouth.net> <v04011704b3e1e6564bbc@[207.8.127.119]>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 15:12:08 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: The Speed of Gravity
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>Terry Blanton wrote:
>>>Tom has a web site at:
>>>http://www.ldolphin.org/vanFlandern/
>>>which has some of his articles.  I particularly like:
>>>http://www.ldolphin.org/vanFlandern/gravityspeed.html
>>>on how gravity must be superluminal.
>>
>>***{I checked it out. Excellent stuff. Everybody on vortex should
>>familiarize themselves with the evidence about the speed of gravity.
>>...
>
>Since I took an interest in this particular paper which vanFlandern
>managed to get published in Physics Letters A, I thought I should
>pass on what I found out.
>
>Firstly I wish to say that I found his paper quite convincing because
>it answered answered all my intuitive doubts.

***{Then at that point, in my way of approaching things, you should have
said: "Hey, I believe this!" --MJ}***

 However I found it hard
>to believe that it had not been considered by those people who make a
>professional career of delving into such questions.

***{The kiss of death: your own judgment ought to take precedence over such
worries. As long as you remain open to further input, there is no reason
whatever to be hesitant about embracing a new idea--especially one as
logically overpowering as this one. After all, if you later determine that
there was a fallacy in van Flandern's argument, you can always go back to
the conventional view. --Mitchell Jones}***

After all two point
>masses in orbit around each other is about the simplest GR problem
>imaginable!  So I asked around and ended up emailing Tibault Damour
>who is one of, if not _the_ world expert on the area.

***{In my view, a person's credibility on a topic depends on the arguments
he uses to support his view of that topic, and on nothing else whatever.
Thus, properly, you would have to extract from this fellow a specific line
of reasoning that refuted van Flandern's position, in order to justify
treating him as more "expert" than van Flandern. --Mitchell Jones}***

 As he had not
>read the paper

***{Entirely to be expected. "The" world expert in an area is almost
invariably some politically oriented jerk whose "expertise" consists of
skill at blending in with the herd. Since the highest priority of such a
person is to hold conventional views, and since that goal is attainable
only if cogent yet unorthodox opinions are selectively avoided, the big
name people are invariably thoroughly ignorant of such ideas. --Mitchell
Jones}***

 , I described it as best I could pointing out that
>vanFlandern had considered the first order gravito-magnetic effect
>in which the electromagnetic analogy allows that the field seen by
>linearly moving charges is the same as if it was propagated
>instananeously.
>
>He replied that from my description, he did not need or want to
>spend any time on it.  They have derived long ago (see any of his
>review papers on the problem of motion) the equations of motion of
>binary systems, including all retardation and aberration effects
>and they have shown that retardation effects are of order (v/c)^5
>fractional corrections to Newton [Newton being instantaneous
>propagation and (v/c)^5 being a _very_ small number - J.W].
>This agrees to 10^-3 with pulsar data and proves that gravity
>propagates with velocity = c.

***{All of which is irrelevant to the present question--which is: what
specific flaw, if any, is present in the Laplace argument? Laplace proved
in 1804 that if gravity is assumed to propagate at lightspeed, the result
is a component of gravitational force tangential to the orbits of the
planets, which is large enough to hurl them out of their orbits in a few
million years. Since they have, in fact, been in those orbits for at least
4 billion years, the notion of lightspeed gravity is refuted.

The Laplace argument is best introduced by means of an analogy. Suppose
that you are sitting in a parked car, on a day when there is no wind, and
that it is raining. Under those conditions, the raindrops will make
vertical streaks down the side windows of your car, and the force of their
impact will tend to push your car straight down. However, if you start the
car and accelerate it up to 60 mph, the situation will change. Now the
streaks made by the raindrops on the side windows will be angled toward the
back of your car, at an angle determined by the hypotenuse of a right
triangle in which the vertical leg is the downward speed of the raindrops,
and the horizontal leg is the negative of the speed of your car. (Assuming
the velocity of your car to be positive.) Note that the force exerted by
the raindrops on your car is no longer straight down, but is now such as to
push your car down *and* back.

Laplace applied such reasoning to the case of the Earth. He reasoned that
if gravity operates by means of particles streaming out from the sun at
lightspeed ("gravitons") and exerting a pull on the Earth when they strike
it, then since the Earth is moving in its orbit at 18.6 miles per second,
the resultant velocity with which the gravitons strike the Earth will *not*
be parallel to the line connecting the centers of mass of the earth and the
sun, but rather will be in the direction of the hypotenuse of a right
triangle one leg of which is parallel with the line of centers and has a
magnitude of 186,000 mps (the speed of light) and the other leg of which
has a magnitude of -18.6 mps (the negative of the speed of the earth in its
orbit). Thus as the gravitons rain down on the Earth, they will come in an
an angle of 90 - [Tan^-1 (1.86x10^5/18.6)] = 5.73x10^-3 degrees = 20.63 arc
seconds *ahead* of the line of centers. Since the gravitons will exert a
tug on the earth in the opposite direction from which they rain down, it
follows that the force they will exert on the Earth will tend to speed it
up in its orbit, and it takes nothing more than high school physics to
proceed from there to the conclusion that, in a few million years, the
Earth will attain escape velocity and will be hurled out of orbit. Note,
however, that as the speed of gravity, Sg, increases, the angle which the
pull of gravity makes with the line of centers decreases. That is, the
limit of {90 - [Tan^-1 (Sg/18.6)]}approaches zero as Sg approaches
infinity, and, when Sg is in excess of (6x10^6)c--that is, in excess of 6
million times the speed of light--it becomes possible for the Earth to
remain in its orbit for the requisite 4 billion years.

If you will work your way through the above reasoning, it should become far
too overwhelming to be toppled by mere handwaving, irrespective of the
reputation of the man to whom the hand is attached.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>I thought I would take a look at one of his review papers and came
>up with the following reference (there are many others however) :-
>
>Title:  General relativity and experiment: a brief review
>Author:  Damour-T
>Source:  Classical-and-Quantum-Gravity. vol.9, suppl.; 1992; p.55-9
>Publication Year:  1992
>Language:  English
>Abstract:  The author gives a brief review of theory and experimental
>work in general relativity. He goes from Galileo's work on gravity
>to Newton's work and on to Einstein's Equivalence Principle.
>
>I haven't had time to look further into it, but I am fairly confident
>that vanFlandern got it wrong.

***{Based on what? Thus far you haven't supplied an argument. The fact that
you consulted with some guy who dismissed Laplace's reasoning with the wave
of a hand is not evidence, and will convince no one who thinks for himself.
Until you produce a specific argument to justify your conclusions, you are
merely wasting our time. --Mitchell Jones}***

 What I find rather surprising is that
>it got past peer review - which is there for the very purpose of
>avoiding having such embarrassingly wrong things published.

***{I too am surprised that the van Flandern article got past peer review,
since the purpose of peer review is to create a fake scientific consensus
by censoring and denying funding to scientists who dare to think for
themselves. The other day Bill Beaty posted a link to an excellent paper by
Thomas Gold, who explained very well how the system works. You can check it
out at http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/newidea1.html. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>I expect quite a few members of this list would strongly disagree with
>this last paragraph.  But I certainly wouldn't be prepared to argue
>about it unless I had at least gone through the derivations of Damour
>(which vanFlandern doesn't even seem to have been aware of!) and found
>a mistake or misapplication.

***{The goal of a rational person is to identify a specific flaw in the
Laplace argument, or, failing that, to accept it. If Damour chooses to
address the thrust of that argument, or the van Flandern variant thereof,
then let him do so. At that point he will have produced something relevant
to this discussion, and will merit our attention. Until then, his views are
of no more significance here than the sound of the wind blowing. --Mitchell
Jones}***

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: INSTRUCTIONS FOR LIFE (fwd)
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[snip]

>> >36. Don't trust a man/woman who doesn't close his/her eyes when you
>kiss.

***{How would you know, unless you are one of those people who can't be
trusted? :-) --MJ}***

[snip]

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	I trust them .... Love is GRAND!



On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Mitchell Jones wrote:

> [snip]
> 
> >> >36. Don't trust a man/woman who doesn't close his/her eyes when you
> >kiss.
> 
> ***{How would you know, unless you are one of those people who can't be
> trusted? :-) --MJ}***
> 
> [snip]
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 13:48:54 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Stable Isotope Fission 
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 14:43:32 -0700
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The number of "Excess Neutrons" above a 1:1 neutron-prton ratio
in a nucleus; excess neutrons = A - 2Z.

Stable Isotope      % Abundance           A-2Z

20Ca40                    97                          0
20Ca44                    2.0                         4
20Ca42                   0.65                        2
20Ca48                   0.187                      8
20Ca43                   0.135                      3
20Ca46                   0.004                      6

22Ti48                     73.8                        4
22Ti46                      8.0                         2
22Ti47                      7.3                         3
22Ti49                      5.5                         5
22Ti50                      5.4                         6

23V51                      99.75                     5
23V50                        0.25                     4

24Cr52                     83.8                       4
24Cr53                       9.5                       5
24Cr50                       4.34                     2
24Cr54                       2.365                   6

25Mn55                     100.00                  5

26Fe56                       91.72                    4
26Fe54                         5.9                      2
26Fe57                         2.1                      3
26Fe58                         0.28                    6

27Co59                       100.00                  5

D-electron-neutrino-antineutrino Fission of 46Pd106:

1,  (D-e-n-an) + 46Pd106 --->   47Ag108  ( 16 Mev Excited Nucleus)

2,  47Ag108 (16 Mev Excited Nucleus) --->    26Fe56 + 24Cr52 + 3e- +  4
neutrinos + 43 mev

IOW, Deuteron Tunneling into a nucleus can fission it to stable isotopes,
neutrinos and betas, with
the neutrinos carrying off the lion's share of energy.

FJS




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 13:51:53 1999
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        John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Zaev ?  About capacitors
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	Dear Vo.,

	Does anyone have a lead on a scientist, we think Russian, whose
name is Zaev or maybe Zeav.

	In any event he is supposed to have developed a method to employ
capacitors to generate electricity.  The best I can come up with is that
the property is emloyed to allow an endothermic  
[endo thermic means "sucks up heat"] condition.
	
	Looking to find E mail address and information.


			Thank you,

				John

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John,

This was discussed a while back. JL Naudin has some web pages on this subject.

"http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/delany/256/html/nzaevncp.htm"

Very interesting!!!

Bill
webriggs concentric.net
briggs XLNsystems.com


>Does anyone have a lead on a scientist, we think Russian, whose
>name is Zaev or maybe Zeav.

>In any event he is supposed to have developed a method to employ
>capacitors to generate electricity.  The best I can come up with is that
>the property is emloyed to allow an endothermic  
>[endo thermic means "sucks up heat"] condition.

>Looking to find E mail address and information.

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Gnorts, Vorts!

On another list someone has noticed solar flare activity (from
SOHO) and magnetometer fluctuations (from HAARP) concurrent with
both the Turkey and Costa Rican earthquakes.

Could solar activity cause an earthquake?

Terry

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> ***{How would you know, unless you are one of those people who can't be
> trusted? :-) --MJ}***

Just download the streaming video of the event off the internet. Did you
still think that there are such things as private moments these days?

- Rick "toilet cam" Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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August 20, 1999

Vortex,

Hal Fox mentioned that Steven Jones was a tenured professor at BYU. Also
he agreed that Jones had recanted on Cold Fusion.  Yet------

Called BYU Faculty information (801) 378-47636. They deleted an online
faculty directory. His direct line is (801) 378-7849.

Jones was not in. Two persons in the Physics Dept. answering for Jones
(801) 378-4361
gave out this information: Yes, Steven Jones is a tenured professor of
Physics. His subject of study is: COLD FUSION and Muon Catalyzed Fusion.
Nothing for public publication. There is no other subject of study that
he is listed under. Of course the subject given could be out of date ---
(by ten years?)  Jones is not available until Monday August 23, 1999.

Jones' tenureship started in 19---?  not found in administrative records
--- suggested talking to him directly.

Interesting.

-AK-

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All,

Hey, is this just a coincidence or what?

Didn't the recent eclipse end over by Turkey?

Then wham not too long later, the big earthquake hits, then shortly 
thereafter on the opposite side of the globe (well kind of) San Francisco 
gets hit as well, though not nearly as bad.  Maybe as a kind of rebound 
echo?

Bill
webriggs concentric.net
briggs XLNsystems.com

DISCLAIMER - Any half-baked flakey hair brained ideas are my own,
and not the half-baked flakey hair brained ideas of my employer.

>On another list someone has noticed solar flare activity (from
>SOHO) and magnetometer fluctuations (from HAARP) concurrent with
>both the Turkey and Costa Rican earthquakes.

>Could solar activity cause an earthquake?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 15:03:37 1999
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S.E. Jones' E-mail address is listed here, Akira.  :-)

FJS

 http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry/tortoise/members.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 16:31:27 1999
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Steven Jones and Cold Fusion
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 19:34:36 -0400
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Vo:

The below should be no surprise, and it means little. If memory serves,
Jones was working on muon catalyzed fusion at the same time F&P were doing
their work. Jones, I recall called it "cold fusion" in a press release or
article. The F&P announcement was ill-timed because of political pressures
resulting from Jones' work. There has been no scientific controversy about
Jones' wok, which is mainstream and a feeble effect.

It was the media that picked up the term "cold fusion" and applied it to the
F&P experiment, contributing to the ensuing confusion. F&P did not use the
term originally. The term 'fusion' applied to the F&P experiment invited
comparison with DD fusion in a plasma, which obeys different rules and is
accompanied by hard radiation. The absence of this radiation signature or
then-detectable "ash" led mainstream physicists to deny that nuclear
processes were taking place. This has now changed; the heat signature is
clear in many experiments, as is the production of reaction byproducts such
as 4He and other transmuted elements.

Mike Carrell
----------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: Hal Fox <halfox uswest.net>
Date: Friday, August 20, 1999 5:19 PM
Subject: Steven Jones and Cold Fusion


>August 20, 1999
>
>Vortex,
>
>Hal Fox mentioned that Steven Jones was a tenured professor at BYU. Also
>he agreed that Jones had recanted on Cold Fusion.  Yet------
>
>Called BYU Faculty information (801) 378-47636. They deleted an online
>faculty directory. His direct line is (801) 378-7849.
>
>Jones was not in. Two persons in the Physics Dept. answering for Jones
>(801) 378-4361
>gave out this information: Yes, Steven Jones is a tenured professor of
>Physics. His subject of study is: COLD FUSION and Muon Catalyzed Fusion.
>Nothing for public publication. There is no other subject of study that
>he is listed under. Of course the subject given could be out of date ---
>(by ten years?)  Jones is not available until Monday August 23, 1999.
>
>Jones' tenureship started in 19---?  not found in administrative records
>--- suggested talking to him directly.
>
>Interesting.
>
>-AK-
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 16:35:47 1999
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WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 20 Aug 99   Washington, DC

1. EVOLUTION I: DARWIN RUNS DEAD LAST IN THE IOWA STRAW POLL. 
The timing of the school board decision to eliminate evolution
from the curriculum in Kansas made it inevitable that candidates
in the Iowa dollars-for-democracy exercise would be asked about
their views.  They all came out boldly for leaving it up to local
school boards, but some went a bit further.  Bush: "I believe
children should be exposed to different theories about how the
world started."  Forbes: "In terms of evolution, there's a huge
debate now." Dole: "I'm a person of strong faith--we must restore
discipline to our schools."  Bauer: "I personally believe my
children were not descended from apes, that they were in fact
created by God... There is a growing body of scientific evidence
for a Devine intervention that created man." Quayle: "Absolutely,
I do [believe in creation]. Sure."  Lamar Alexander is waiting
for a reporter to ask him a question.  Both Gore and Bradley also
ducked behind local control, but Bradley's office added that if
he lived in Kansas he wouldn't support the board's action.

2. EVOLUTION II: DARWIN POLLS BADLY WITH AMERICANS.  A Gallup
poll found that nearly half of American adults say they believe
in a literal biblical interpretation of creation, and only about
one in ten subscribe to a purely scientific interpretation of
evolution.  Americans are about five times as likely to take the
Bible literally as people in England.  However, people tend to
keep religious views separate.  Asked about the age of the Earth
in a non-religious context, they might respond very differently. 

3. THAAD: TESTING TERMINATED AFTER A WINNING STREAK OF TWO.  The
plan was to begin construction after three successful tests, but
after six failures followed by two successes, the Pentagon has
decided that all this testing is detracting from the real goal of
designing a production model.  The $15.4B project is being moved
into the Engineering, Manufacturing and Development phase.  But
critics complain that the two "successes" were unrealistic.

4. CASSINI: PLUTONIUM-POWERED SPACECRAFT MISSES EARTH.  The huge
robot got a final gravitational assist Tuesday, on its way to a
2004 rendezvous with Saturn.  Critics claimed the fly-by was the
most dangerous part of the mission and invoked a 1558 Nostradamus
prediction of a catastrophe (WN 19 Feb 99) in an effort to have
the mission aborted.  JPL described the assist as "perfect."

5. ISS: TIM ROEMER PREPARES FOR ANNUAL ASSAULT ON SPACE STATION. 
The result may be the same, but Roemer (D-IN) has new allies:
Mark Sanford (R-SC), who opposes the station on fiscal grounds,
and the ISS itself, which NASA now admits has an air quality
problem.  Several astronauts were nauseated on the last visit. 

(Helene Grossman contributed to this week's What's New.)

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 16:41:45 1999
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	Dear Bill and Vo,

	questions, in text, below, cuts


On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 wrote:

> All,
> 
> Hey, is this just a coincidence or what?
> 


> >On another list someone has noticed solar flare activity (from
> >SOHO) and

-----------------FLAG----------------

	OK!  Yay!  Big fun!  This is my field ha ha ha !

	What kind of magnetometer ... where is is located?  Were there
more than one?  Are any of the gradiometric?  What were the natures of the
readings?  How do we know location or direction of the magnetic source[s]?
 
	It appears someone has indicated HAARP cause some as yet not
defined fluctuation ....concurrent with seismic activity.... how were the
data correlated  ?  What was were are the primary sources and-or triggers
for the seismic, and tow locations and magnetometry?

	This is VERY cool IF... and this is a big if ... there is any real
science being done... ie, what is the nature of the coherency, frequency,
type and magnitude of the readings ... ie., in Gauss or gammas?  In
acceleration per time unit?  From where and what axis?

		J

 magnetometer fluctuations (from HAARP) concurrent with
> >both the Turkey and Costa Rican earthquakes.
> 
> >Could solar activity cause an earthquake?
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 16:49:48 1999
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Subject: Re: Steven Jones and Cold Fusion
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At 07:34 PM 8/20/99 -0400, Mike Carrell wrote:
>Vo:
>
>The below should be no surprise, and it means little. If memory serves,
>Jones was working on muon catalyzed fusion at the same time F&P were doing
>their work. Jones, I recall called it "cold fusion" in a press release or
>article. The F&P announcement was ill-timed because of political pressures
>resulting from Jones' work. There has been no scientific controversy about
>Jones' wok, which is mainstream and a feeble effect.

  There should be the same scrutiny for muon and hot fusion that cold
fusion has received.   Furthermore, there appears to be Japanese
research on muon fusion that is not often referenced.  
Cold Fusion Times has had three articles on these hard to find 
efforts.

  =====================================================


>It was the media that picked up the term "cold fusion" and applied it to the
>F&P experiment, contributing to the ensuing confusion. F&P did not use the
>term originally. The term 'fusion' applied to the F&P experiment invited
>comparison with DD fusion in a plasma, which obeys different rules and is
>accompanied by hard radiation. The absence of this radiation signature or
>then-detectable "ash" led mainstream physicists to deny that nuclear
>processes were taking place. This has now changed; the heat signature is
>clear in many experiments, as is the production of reaction byproducts such
>as 4He and other transmuted elements.

   The absence of bremsstrahlung at ionizing energies in cold
fusion was totally misunderstood.  The entire 'graduate student
problem' was nothing but invented myth by the pathologic skeptics.


   Mitchell Swartz





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 20:53:47 1999
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Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 20:52:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Phase shift
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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John Berry wrote:
>If you have capacitors in series and resistors in parallel you create
>the well known phase shift oscilator.
> 
>question1:
>Is there a limit with enough stages how much you can shift the phase?

No limit, other than that the amplitude is less at each RC stage down the
ladder.

>question2:
>Does it work with square wave DC? I would like to get away with a 555
>powering it...

Yes, if you change to phase LAG elements, where you have resistors in series
and capacitors in parallel. Phase lead, which is what you proposed above,
will tend to differentiate the waveforms; this will turn the steps of your
square wave form into spikes, and the next stage will turn the spikes into
spikier spikes, etc. Neat to look at, but probably not what you want. Phase
lag will turn the square wave triangluar; the next stage will turn that into
a sort of multiple parabolas. By the third stage and beyond, the wave will be
almost indistinguishable from sinusoidal, with each one lagging in phase and
somewhat lower in amplitude from the preceding one.

If you want phase shifted square waves, then no passive circuit other than a
true delay line will work for you. You can use active circuits, though, with
each one triggering the next one through a delay circuit.
===
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 21:54:35 1999
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Michael Schaffer wrote:

> John Berry wrote:
> >If you have capacitors in series and resistors in parallel you create
> >the well known phase shift oscilator.
> >
> >question1:
> >Is there a limit with enough stages how much you can shift the phase?
>
> No limit, other than that the amplitude is less at each RC stage down the
> ladder.
>
> >question2:
> >Does it work with square wave DC? I would like to get away with a 555
> >powering it...
>
> Yes, if you change to phase LAG elements, where you have resistors in series
> and capacitors in parallel. Phase lead, which is what you proposed above,
> will tend to differentiate the waveforms; this will turn the steps of your
> square wave form into spikes, and the next stage will turn the spikes into
> spikier spikes, etc. Neat to look at, but probably not what you want. Phase
> lag will turn the square wave triangluar; the next stage will turn that into
> a sort of multiple parabolas. By the third stage and beyond, the wave will be
> almost indistinguishable from sinusoidal, with each one lagging in phase and
> somewhat lower in amplitude from the preceding one.

That's what I thought would happen, guess I need a better plan.

>
>
> If you want phase shifted square waves, then no passive circuit other than a
> true delay line will work for you. You can use active circuits, though, with
> each one triggering the next one through a delay circuit.

Can you please elaborate on these two options?

>
> ===
> Michael J. Schaffer
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 21:56:51 1999
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From: rvanspaa bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Nickel plating
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 04:55:38 GMT
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

I was trying to produce a cathode using nickel plating today, but just
ended up getting hydrogen production and nickel hydroxide, with no
plating. Could someone tell me how to ensure that the nickel plates out,
instead of producing hydrogen?

TIA,


Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 20 22:28:59 1999
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Phase shift
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John Berry wrote:
> Michael Schaffer wrote:
>>If you want phase shifted square waves, then no passive circuit other
>>than a true delay line will work for you. You can use active circuits,
>>though, with each one triggering the next one through a delay circuit.
> 
> Can you please elaborate on these two options?

1. Delay line: The simplest delay line is a length of coax cable. Tee off at
apprpriate lengths along it. However, since you need about 200 m of cable per
microsecond, this technique is practical only for sub-microsecond delays.
There are compact delay lines available, but they cost a lot if they are any
good. They are also hard to design and build if you need to avoid waveform
distortion.

2. Active circuits: I don't know many ICs by number, so I'll just outline
some approaches. The easiest might be to generate each coil's pulse by a
monostable or "one shot" circuit or a single pulse generator circuit. Trigger
each pulse source in the chain from the preceding one through a delay
circuit. There are probably delay ICs on the market. If so, and they arn't
too expensive, that is certainly the easiest and most reliable way to
introduce time delay. Otherwise, you can make delay by a series-R, parallel-C
combination from the output of one pulser to the triger of the other.
Depending on polarities matching or not and on DC offsets, this might not be
so easy. You might need an inverting amplifier, and you might need to
introduce DC offset.
===
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 21 03:36:51 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>,
        John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Holosteric
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	Dear V.,

	A barometer reads" 

	"Schatz Holosteric Compensated Barometer"

	What does holosteric mean?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 21 03:56:45 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Quakes
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 07:00:30 -0400
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Yo,

While the subject of earthquakes, and technologies to help predict them has
a very large body of literature, here is the resource that I use for keeping
up with the news of current quakes.  After reading through just the
headlines of the hundreds of articles relating to the Turkish quake, it is
pretty apparent that no one in that area will have been unaffected by the
tradgedy.  Millions have been displaced, tens of thousands injured and
possibly 40,000 will have died as a result of this quake.  Latin America and
Japan also experienced quakes at roughly the same time. 

http://www.drudgereport.com/quake.htm

Here are a couple of headlines of particular interest.

MIT Prof Warned Turks  (ABC NewsWire)
An earthquake expert from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology says he
and his colleagues warned Turkish officials of the
threat long before this week's earthquake actually occurred. But Professor
Nafi Toksoz (NA-fee TOKE-sez), a seismology expert
who was born in Turkey, says the Turkish government never installed
monitoring equipment he helped develop that could have
predicted this week's devastating quake, which killed more than
four-thousand people in western Turkey. An additional 18-thousand
are injured, and ten-thousand remain missing.
- Aug 19 5:46 AM EDT


Witt To Turkey  (ABC NewsWire)
The National Director of F-E-M-A, James Lee Witt, may be headed for
earthquake ravaged Turkey early next week. Witt,
vacationing at his Yell County home, spoke to the Dardanelle Chamber of
Commerce noon luncheon yesterday and told those
attending that President Clinton is pressing hard to defeat the 800-BILLION
dollar Republican tax cut proposal. Witt says the
president will veto the measure if passed, because he believes it will delay
the elimination of the national debt AND jeopardize social
security solvency. The president's proposal would add a prescription drug
card for Medicare recipients.
- Aug 19 6:19 AM EDT
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 21 04:18:12 1999
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote: 
> I was trying to produce a cathode using nickel plating today, but just
> ended up getting hydrogen production and nickel hydroxide, with no
> plating. Could someone tell me how to ensure that the nickel plates 
> out, instead of producing hydrogen?

Here is a "Typical Plating Bath Formula" from a chemical engineer's
handbook. [Convert and adjust values to use.]
(concentration in a avoirdupois ounces per gallon)
NiSo4.7H2O ------------------ 32
NiCl2.6H2O ------------------  2
H2BO3 -----------------------  4
   pH ---------------------------------------------- 5.6 - 6.3
   Temperature ------------------------------------- 120 - 130
   Cathode current density, amp, per sq. ft. --------20

-ak-

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Subject: RE: Holosteric
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John,
Break the word up into its Greek constituents and take a guess.
'Holosteric Compensated '

Holo as in hologram - I think 'section'.
Steric as in stereo or 3d.
Must be to do with parallax effect when you read the graticule and compensated for it.
Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From:	John Schnurer [SMTP:herman antioch-college.edu]
Sent:	21 August 1999 11:40
To:	Vortex; John Schnurer
Subject:	Holosteric



	Dear V.,

	A barometer reads" 

	"Schatz Holosteric Compensated Barometer"

	What does holosteric mean?


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 21 04:38:30 1999
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John,
It's got to do with planetary alignment and sun/moon alignement as =
happened on/around the 11th. I bet its the tidal forces from this.

In Turkey they pulled out a 99 year old lady. This is incredible. To go =
for 4 days without water in such heat and obviously highly stressing =
conditions. The power of the human spirit never ceases to amaze me.
Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From:	John Schnurer [SMTP:herman antioch-college.edu]
Sent:	21 August 1999 00:44
To:	vortex-l
Cc:	John Schnurer
Subject:	RE: Earthquakes and Solar Activity?



	Dear Bill and Vo,

	questions, in text, below, cuts


On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 wrote:

> All,
>=20
> Hey, is this just a coincidence or what?
>=20


> >On another list someone has noticed solar flare activity (from
> >SOHO) and

-----------------FLAG----------------

	OK!  Yay!  Big fun!  This is my field ha ha ha !

	What kind of magnetometer ... where is is located?  Were there
more than one?  Are any of the gradiometric?  What were the natures of =
the
readings?  How do we know location or direction of the magnetic =
source[s]?
=20
	It appears someone has indicated HAARP cause some as yet not
defined fluctuation ....concurrent with seismic activity.... how were =
the
data correlated  ?  What was were are the primary sources and-or =
triggers
for the seismic, and tow locations and magnetometry?

	This is VERY cool IF... and this is a big if ... there is any real
science being done... ie, what is the nature of the coherency, =
frequency,
type and magnitude of the readings ... ie., in Gauss or gammas?  In
acceleration per time unit?  From where and what axis?

		J

 magnetometer fluctuations (from HAARP) concurrent with
> >both the Turkey and Costa Rican earthquakes.
>=20
> >Could solar activity cause an earthquake?
>=20


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 21 04:47:27 1999
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From: Remi Cornwall <r.o.cornwall city.ac.uk>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Doppler effect & Relativity questions]
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Jack,
for this effect to work they must get more massive for blue, less for =
red. How do you resolve this with mass increase for any relative speed?
Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From:	Taylor J. Smith [SMTP:tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net]
Sent:	19 August 1999 23:00
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	Re: [Fwd: Doppler effect & Relativity questions]

Remi wrote:

I asked that question to a physicist and it was=20
put in New Scientist about 3 years back.
Where does the energy come from in blue shift,
where does it go in redshift. I got blank from an expert.=20
I don't think it's to do with gravitational pe either,
it just goes or comes from - who knows?

Hi Remi,

Halton Arp, in "Seeing Red", says that we see blue shift=20
when electrons, which are more massive than the electrons
in our solar system, move from one orbital to amother.
We see red shift when electrons, which are less massive
than the electrons in our solar system, move from one
orbital to amother.  More massive electrons emit more
energy when they jump.

Jack Smith



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 21 04:56:33 1999
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Yes,
Thank you Hank and George but this is definitely not the issue for the =
magnetic design I have to do. I do need high mu. I believe I have the =
solution now with how to get a fine slurry with high mu. Can't tell you =
to I protect idea, then I will let you know.
Remi.

-----Original Message-----
From:	Scudder, Henry J [SMTP:Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com]
Sent:	20 August 1999 16:54
To:	'vortex-l eskimo.com'
Subject:	RE: effctv perm. wrong question

Consider the analogy with an electrical circuit. mu is analogous to
conductance, B with current and H with voltage. Hi mu is low resistance,
like the wiring in your house. A lamp is like the airgap. Most power
dissipated in the lamp.

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	George Holz[SMTP:george varisys.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, August 19, 1999 12:32 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: effctv perm. wrong question
>=20
> Hi Remi, you wrote:
> >
> >The last paragraph has me a little confused. You know how it is with =
me:
> >I take a subject right down to first principles, build it up again to
> >make sure I understand.
> -
> Here is the last paragraph again:
> -
> >> One more observation, most people think of high mu as the high
> >> energy case, however, at a given field (gauss) the available
> >> electrical output energy is inversely proportional to mu.
> >> High output energy can often be generated best when the mu of
> >> a section of a series magnetic circuit is lowered !!! while a
> >> shorted coil holds the flux constant.
> -
> This is entirely from first principles and it is critical to
> understand, but is very counterintuitive at first. Use the standard
> expressions
> to calculate the field energy in an air gap of a series high mu
> magnetic circuit and compare it to the energy in the rest of the high =
mu
> circuit. I call the standard definition the "available output energy"
> to avoid confusion with my nonstandard energy definitions which =
correspond
> more
> closely with the intuitive idea that high magnetic energy is present
> in high mu materials. If you intend to output electrical energy from
> your coil, you will find that the available output energy will be =
found
> primarily in the low mu sections of your magnetic circuit. Why isn't a
> high mu or high field gain magnetic circuit intrinsically overunity?
> Well, perhaps in some real sense it is, but from an available output
> energy point of view it is not.
> Regards,
> George
> -
> George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
> 732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
> 1924 US Hwy 22 East            Bound Brook NJ 08805
>=20
>=20
>=20


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 21 05:25:28 1999
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August 21, 1999

Vortex,

Mike Carrell wrote:
 
> If memory serves, Jones was working on muon catalyzed fusion at the 
> same time F&P were doing their work.

Before, around 1986 and earlier, Jones and Palmer were looking into
catalytzed cold fusion (D2) according to Frank Close's book "Too Hot To
Handle" (1990). Not just on muons. He had even set up an electrolytic
cell. And Steven Jone's and Paul Palmer's musings were somewhat running
parallel to P&F's.
Jones also discovered the earlier Russian findings (1978) of trapped and
uneven distribution (hinting at fusion reactions) of Helium-3 in metals
found in deep earth.

As Hal Fox mentioned, Jones later got a grant to study transmutation in
volcanism (and cold fusion effects?)   

> Jones, I recall called it "cold fusion" in a press release or
> article. 

The term "Cold Fusion" was coined and printed in a book by Otto Frisch
back in 1961 in reference to Luis Alvarez's discovery in 1956 of the
muon fusion process. For that matter, maybe Alvarez thought of the term
himself. It seems the idea of low temperature fusion was anticipated
some fifty years earlier in Europe, India, Russia.

> The F&P announcement was ill-timed because of political pressures
> resulting from Jones' work.

There are some intersting chronicalling of events around the
announcement date. I would say the administration, including the legal
department of the University of Utah rushed the whole thing out of their
own greed.

> There has been no scientific controversy 
> about Jones' work, which is mainstream and a feeble effect.

There would be no controversy when he recants cold fusion to the public
and kills publicity --- while consistant with his personality, (by
Close) he remains with his conviction.


> >His subject of study is: COLD FUSION and Muon Catalyzed Fusion.

The BYU Physic Department made clear the separation of the two subjects.
Cold fusion was mentioned first then Muon Catalyzed Fusion as 'other
works'.

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 21 07:11:46 1999
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From: rvanspaa bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Nickel plating
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 14:10:11 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <37beb31d.25841154 mail-hub>
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On Sat, 21 Aug 1999 04:21:52 -0700, aki ix.netcom.com wrote:
[snip]
>Here is a "Typical Plating Bath Formula" from a chemical engineer's
>handbook. [Convert and adjust values to use.]
>(concentration in a avoirdupois ounces per gallon)
>NiSo4.7H2O ------------------ 32
>NiCl2.6H2O ------------------  2
>H2BO3 -----------------------  4
>   pH ---------------------------------------------- 5.6 - 6.3
>   Temperature ------------------------------------- 120 - 130
>   Cathode current density, amp, per sq. ft. --------20
>
>-ak-
Thanks, I'll see what I can do.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 21 08:00:26 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Holosteric
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 llege.edu>
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At 06:40 AM 8/21/99 -0400, John Schnurer wrote:

>	What does holosteric mean?

>From Webster's Unabridged:

holosteric: (holo, Greek for whole; stereos, Greek for solid)  solid
throughout, using no liquid; as, a holosteric or aneroid barometer.

aneroid: not using liquid.  said of a kind of barometer which consists of a
metallic box from which the air has been exhausted, the pressure of the
atmosphere being shown by the movements of its elastic top, which are
registered by a needle.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 21 08:13:41 1999
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From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Allais effect, eclipse pendulum anomaly 
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At 08:22 20/08/99 -0500, Scott wrote:
>At 04:10 PM 8/20/99 +0800, John Winterflood wrote:
>
>>I don't know how he achieved his
>>anisotropy of elasticity - it may have been that under load, the
>>plate that the ball was sitting on had a slightly greater concavity in
>>one horizontal direction than the other - for instance by supporting it
>>wider in one direction than the other.
>
>It's not explained but your hypothesis sounds reasonable.

He gives some pictures of his arrangment but I can't make anything out
from the poor copies that have been circulated.  I am sure there are
much fuller details in those French publications also.

What I would really like to see - and of course what should have
been done in hindsight, is a calibration finding out to what degree
tilt affected his device.  That measured data together with measured
earth tides would have settled the question one way or the other.

>>In any case I would guess that
>>since it was a ball on a surface, the equilibrium direction at which
>>the Foucault effect (tending to turn the pendulum) balances the
>>anisotropy (tending to restore it to a particular direction) is very
>>sensitive to any tilt in the surface of the plate and thus also in the
>>surface of the earth.
>
>Indeed.  It makes me wonder if the peculiar performance of the pendulum
>during the eclipse was caused by all the people gathering in unusual
>locations around his building staring at the eclipse.

We have done quite a lot of work with low frequency seismic and tilt
sensors and I don't think people moving around outside of a reasonable
size building cause significant tilts (in comparison to the seismic
shaking and tilting which is going on continually).  However we can
readily detect a person walking across the same (say 5x10m) concrete
slab that a low frequency seismic device is mounted on.  In fact if
you stand right beside it, it can easily send the reading off scale
(depending on gain setting etc).  Also we believe our building (7
floors high) tilts back and forth morning and afternoon as the sun
heats up different sides of it. (This is hard to separate from
the earth tilts however)

>>(It is well known that the tidal effects of the sun and moon
>>cause the earths crust to rise and fall a metre or so daily and
>>produce tilts in the earths surface with these periods.)
>
>Wow!  Would that affect things as far inland as Paris?

Yes the crust of the earth actually heaves up (a separate effect from
the sea being dragged around).  Some people I know personally measured
and published graphs of this tilt using a device called a folded
pendulum which was pretty much originated in our lab.  They made the
measurement in fairly deep underground laboratory somewhere in the
middle of China :-
Shuhua Fan,et al, "Response of a folded pendulum to tilt tides",
Phys Lett A, 256 (1999) 132-40.
However, the paper is more an investigation into the performance of
the folded pendulum, than the earth tides.  Although they give some
plots, it is not very carefully done and I wouldn't recommend it for
earth tide data at all.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 21 08:18:18 1999
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Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 23:17:15 +0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Nickel plating
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Robin wrote:

>I was trying to produce a cathode using nickel plating today, ...

You might also be interested in spray on nickel plating?  I once
noticed that Electrolube had a (very expensive) can of spray which
was supposed to nickel plate things.  Dick Smith used to sell it
but haven't stocked it for some years.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 21 08:18:25 1999
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From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The Speed of Gravity
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Mitchell Jones wrote:
>...
>John Winterflood wrote:
>>...
>>After all two point
>>masses in orbit around each other is about the simplest GR problem
>>imaginable!  So I asked around and ended up emailing Tibault Damour
>>who is one of, if not _the_ world expert on the area.
>
>***{In my view, a person's credibility on a topic depends on the arguments
>he uses to support his view of that topic, and on nothing else whatever.
>Thus, properly, you would have to extract from this fellow a specific line
>of reasoning that refuted van Flandern's position, in order to justify
>treating him as more "expert" than van Flandern. --Mitchell Jones}***

This fellow has already had "extracted from him", many times over, in
the form of referreed (ie checked by the most qualified people in the
world), journal articles, these very lines of reasoning that you want.
If I have not gone to the trouble of looking up and reading through
one of them, I am not about to expect him to churn out a personalised
version for every idiot that happens to find out his email address.

>***{All of which is irrelevant to the present question--which is: what
>specific flaw, if any, is present in the Laplace argument? ...

Laplace doesn't even consider the "linear extrapolation" idea that
electromagnetism illustrates.  I believe this was first and best
brought out by Feynman (probably in volume 2 of lectures in physics)
and is rather well proved experimentally as being the way
electromagnetism actually works.  The idea is that the field
"felt" by a charged particle due to another charged particle in
linear motion, is identical with the field that would be present
if it was propagated instantaneously - even though it is actually
from the retarded position and time and propagated at speed c.

(A help to one's imagination is to consider Laplace's "particles
streaming out from the sun" to have some oscillation frequency
associated with them, and then consider that motion causes this
frequency to be red or blue shifted proportional to velocity.
Then if you include that the interaction strength of the particle
is affected in proportion to this red or blue shift, I think you
might come close to the EM analogy.)

It seems to me that vanFlandern fully considers this case (which
proves Laplaces argument sadly lacking straight off) and then goes
beyond it to show that even including this effect gravitation must
be propagated much faster than c.

So the question is, what extra effect is hidden within the
equations of GR that allow even the acceleration (as opposed
to only linear motion in the EM analogy) to have "look-ahead
compensation".  Apparently Damour & co have proved that it
exists - we just need another Feynman to describe it to us
simply and convincingly. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 21 13:41:32 1999
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Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 16:44:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Need EXACT spec on plating set up...Re: Nickel plating
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	Dear All.

		Can you please let us know:

	1] surface area and composition of plates
	2] volts and amps ...  AND  
		Regulation what type, and spec of compliance, PSRR, or
Power Supply Rejection Ratio for the regulation ... or as close as you can
get.
	3] meauserd changes in current and voltage, over time, during a
run

			????

	AND:

	Primary suggetion:

	Plate REAL REAL Slow ... turn down voltage until gas evolution is
just about gone... tap the plates from time to time to see if you are
getting new bubbles.
	Heat plating solution ... all by iteslf... and allow to cool to
room temp .... to drive off any trapped gas[es]  .........


				J

	PPS:  You can make an adequate low power regulator from two
adjustable voltage regulators, ie., LM 317 ... use one as volt reg and
another as current regulator.. AND USE REAL BIG HEAT SINKS !!!!!




On Sat, 21 Aug 1999 aki ix.netcom.com wrote:

> Robin van Spaandonk wrote: 
> > I was trying to produce a cathode using nickel plating today, but just
> > ended up getting hydrogen production and nickel hydroxide, with no
> > plating. Could someone tell me how to ensure that the nickel plates 
> > out, instead of producing hydrogen?
> 
> Here is a "Typical Plating Bath Formula" from a chemical engineer's
> handbook. [Convert and adjust values to use.]
> (concentration in a avoirdupois ounces per gallon)
> NiSo4.7H2O ------------------ 32
> NiCl2.6H2O ------------------  2
> H2BO3 -----------------------  4
>    pH ---------------------------------------------- 5.6 - 6.3
>    Temperature ------------------------------------- 120 - 130
>    Cathode current density, amp, per sq. ft. --------20
> 
> -ak-
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 21 16:21:00 1999
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Subject: Re: Nickel plating
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August 21, 1999

Vortex,

A search of the web under 'Nickel Plating' reveals plating suppliers,
plating services, and a seller of 'do-it-yourself kit for nickel
plating. One gallon kit enough to plate 25 sq. ft is offered at $95
online with complete materials and instructions. Runs with 12 volt
batteries.  Look into <<http://www.caswellplating.com/nickel.htm>>

-ak-


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 21 17:38:32 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:36:36 EDT
Subject: Re: Steven Jones and Cold Fusion
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Mike Carrell wrote:

"It was the media that picked up the term "cold fusion" and applied it to the
F&P experiment, contributing to the ensuing confusion. F&P did not use the
term originally. The term 'fusion' applied to the F&P experiment invited
comparison with DD fusion in a plasma, which obeys different rules and is
accompanied by hard radiation. The absence of this radiation signature or
then-detectable "ash" led mainstream physicists to deny that nuclear
processes were taking place. This has now changed; the heat signature is
clear in many experiments, as is the production of reaction byproducts such
as 4He and other transmuted elements."

It seems to me that the evidence is strongest by far for heat, and (in 
systems using deuterium) also strong for tritium, but much weaker for 4He, 
and a fog of confusion for other transmuted elements.  The evidence for 
neutrons is also very weak.  

It's too bad that hardly anyone looked for protons, because where there's 
tritium, there should be protons (I think that Steve Jones and other skeptics 
wanted to place the emphasis on the production of secondary neutrons, when it 
should have been on primary protons, which are 100,000 times more numerous, 
and that they succeeded).

I have a very bad feeling about transmutation claims beyond 4He or 3He.  Look 
what happened with RIFEX, and at what happened to CETI as a result.  I think 
that transmutation claims beyond helium present skeptics with some of the 
fattest and easiest targets that they've ever had, and that they obscure the 
reality of the principal phenomenon, namely, excess heat.

SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, vol. 257, no. 1 (July 1987), pp. 84-89, ran an article 
by Johann Rafelski and Steven E. Jones called "Cold Nuclear Fusion."  It was 
about muon-catalyzed fusion.  The second paragraph of the article said that 
muon-catalyzed fusion was also referred to simply as cold fusion.

Mike thought that it was Steve Jones who saddled the field of excess heat or 
anomalous energy with the name cold fusion in 1989.  If so, that would be 
ironic, because the name is misleading, and people have been trying to come 
up with an alternative ever since.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 21 17:48:33 1999
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Sender: jack mail3.centuryinter.net
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-----Original Message-----
From:	Taylor J. Smith [SMTP:tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net]
Sent:	19 August 1999 23:00
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	Re: [Fwd: Doppler effect & Relativity questions]

Jack wrote:

Halton Arp, in "Seeing Red", says that we see blue shift
when electrons, which are more massive than the electrons
in our solar system, move from one orbital to amother.
We see red shift when electrons, which are less massive
than the electrons in our solar system, move from one
orbital to amother.  More massive electrons emit more
energy when they jump.

Remi wrote:

For this effect to work they must get more massive for blue,
less for red. How do you resolve this with mass increase
for any relative speed?

Hi Remi.

Arp (and Hoyle) in "Seeing Red" says that electrons
have zero mass when they are created and a velocity of c.
As they age, their "rest" mass increases; and, to conserve
momentum, they slow down.  By the time they have separated
from their parent galaxies as quasars, they are nowhwere
near the speed of light; so mass increase with relative
speed is insignificant.

The important thing is the youthfulness of the quasars.
Some have tied themselves up in the epicycular contortions
of enormous amounts of dark matter in order to save the
doctrine that high redshift objects must be travelling
at high velocities.  These contortions will probably be
the phlogiston theory of the 20th century.

Jack Smith


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From: rvanspaa bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Nickel plating
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 01:27:07 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <37c35163.66370625 mail-hub>
References: <3.0.6.32.19990821231715.00933100 cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
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Thanks to all that responded. I will take all suggestions under
consideration. It appears that my first attempt was rather ill
conceived, so I'll do a little more research before trying again.
(This includes getting quote/advice from a plating shop).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 21 19:07:55 1999
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Thanks Robin,

But, you never have heard of more than two heavy fragments and a couple of
neutrons in neutron induced fission, where about 200 Mev is released.

Not that the energy release in two-fragment stable isotope fission is much
greater than the Champion-Urban model even if most of it is carried off
aneutronic-sans gammas, by neutrinos.

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 21 21:53:33 1999
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Doppler effect & Relativity questions]
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Jim Ostrowski sent:

>Results of some Library Research : Doppler Effect
>
>To the stationary observer the velocity of radiation in a
>light beam is affected by a relative motion of the source.
>
>See: McGraw-Hill Ency. of Sci. & Tech.,1982, v7 p687.
>
>Vs = velocity of the source    C  = observed speed of light
>     (Vs << Co)                F' = observed frequency
>Co = vacuum speed of light     Fo = emitted frequency
>
>C  = Co(1 - Vs/Co)    receeding source
>F' = Fo(1 - Vs/Co)    shift to red
>C  = Co(1 + Vs/Co)    approaching source
>F' = Fo(1 + Vs/Co)    shift to blue
> 
>Source: Facts on File Dictionary of Physics, 1988, p55.
>
>I think the reality of the Doppler effect argues against C=C+V(source).

Some one made a big error here. You are right that the above equations for C
rule out even classical Doppler effect. 

A keystone of special relativity is the constancy of the speed of light, i.e.
 C = Co. I have occasionally looked up things in (the hard copy library
version of) McGraw-Hill Ency. of Sci. & Tech. and have never found big errors
like this before. 

>     Since a blue shift for advancing sources entails an  increase  in 
>the energy of the recieved wavetrain , the conservation of energy...

Someone highlighted this question in general in another post. In the
direction toward an observer whom the source is approaching, the energy for
the blue shift comes from the radiation pressure times the speed of advance
(force times distance, which is power, or energy per time). Red shift is the
opposite, since the radiation pressure appears to do work on the receding
source.

>Here is the problem I am struggling with in regard to relativity and the
>Doppler effect:

Remember: Relativistic time dilation is not the same as Doppler effect. Time
dilation has to do with time being different for different moving observers.
The Doppler effect is a motion dependent shift of frequency. The Doppler
effect exists classically, too, and the Doppler formula has to be corrected
for relativistic effects at high speed. Perhaps part of your problem is not
remembering the distinction, though both have to be included in any analysis
involving moving objects.

>The second postulate of relativity states that the measured speed of
>light is a constant in all reference frames. 
>
>    I think this is probably true but I do not see how it would be
>possible to measure the speed of light from a source moving "relative"
>to an observer's "stationary" position anyway unless the velocity of the
>source is known in an ABSOLUTE sense ahead of time. Relativity by
>definition denies absolute values (constants) other than the speed of
>light, which is what you are trying to measure as it comes from the
>source moving relative to you and at some velocity which is dependent on
>WHO's MEASUREMENT, YOURS OR THEIRS? 

>and this source velocity measurement based on WHAT observed effect....?
>
>The Doppler Effect perhaps?

The Global Positioning System has to deal with all this. The position
calculation depends critically on highly accurate clocks in multiple moving
satellites. I don't know in detail how it is set up to work, but the
calculations have to be done relativistically in order to get high accuracy
determinations. 

>  Remember, no matter what you try, Einstein claims, the APPARENT speed
>of light does not vary no matter WHO DOES the measurement.
>
> OK let's put that statement to some kind of "practical" that may become
>possible with the development of the fusion rocket capable of accelating
>at 1 g for at least a whole year as determined from timing devices on
>board and monitored by the ship's occupants..  
>
>  A 1450 meghertz radio tracking (pilot signal) beacon is on board
>sending out a carrier modulated with periodic bursts of four equally
>spaced 1 millisecond long pulses every ten seconds or so. 
>  
> There are two transmitting parabolic dishes mounted outside, one aimed
>at earth and the other aimed at the destination planet Alpha Centauri D. 
>The transmitter output is split between these two dishes.
>
>As the ship nears a point in time as observed from the earth as having
>been enroute for 1 year the recieved carrier center frequency (as
>monitored by a spectrum analyzer) has decreased drastically to about 145
>mhz and the recieved pulse modulations are getting farther and farther
>apart in THE TIME DOMAIN (as monitored by an oscilloscope) and are
>now 10 millisconds long. 
>
>On board the ship, crewmembers see that everything is normal and the
>transmitter is working properly, at 1450 mhz, pulse modulations occur
>according to specs, all systems go.
>
>On Alpha Centauri D, the Centurian Tracking station sees just the
>opposite from what is seen on the earth's instruments. Center carrier
>frequency is now in the 14 ghz regions and the 4 pulses are only .1
>millisecond long.  
>
>Who's equipment is performing the CORRECT measurement?
>
>a. The earth's
>b. The ship's
>c. The Centaurians

They all are preforming correct measurements. Two things are going on here.
There is a Doppler shift, and time and frequency are not invariants.

>Is time dilating for the ships occupants?
>
>1. yes
>2. no

Time is passing more slowly for the ship's occupants than for Earthlings and
Centaurians.

>If time IS dilating and the astronausts biomedical functions (such as
>heartbeat rate) are going in slow motion as dtermined by earth's
>instruments,  will the Centurians heart rate monitor for the astronauts
>indicate the same thing ? 
>
> My question:
>
>What quality of the recieved em radiation from the ships transmitter
>could be used to make a light speed measurement from earth to determine
>if c = c-V ? Pulse counts per second?       
>
>In short, what quality of this em radiation can be used to test
>Einstein's 2nd?

Time dilation can be measured e.g. in moving atoms (shift in frequency of
emission lines) in the laboratory (side on measurement, to avoid simple
Doppler effect). Here one can measure the velocity of the atom ("space ship")
in the lab, by recording the times when it goes past two or more detectors
set up along its trajectory in the lab.

Time dilation of clocks in earth orbiting satellites was measured a long time
ago. It was one of the early satellite experiments.

As far as I know, every test that people have tried still comes up with the
same c (except for the GR effect of gravity/acceleration). 

GR is on a much better experimental basis nowadays than early this century,
when the data were far less convincing and non Einsteinian GR theories were
seriously entertained.
===
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 22 02:28:03 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Electro-less Nickel plating
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	There is a non electric power plating method.  I will look
up the solutions for you.

	

On Sun, 22 Aug 1999, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> Thanks to all that responded. I will take all suggestions under
> consideration. It appears that my first attempt was rather ill
> conceived, so I'll do a little more research before trying again.
> (This includes getting quote/advice from a plating shop).
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 22 02:35:15 1999
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Subject:  Doppler effect Do It One's self !
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	If you want to goof around with EM doppler..... you can use the 10
gig cps microwave emetter detector assemblies from microwave door openers
or intruder detectors.
	Get so beginners books and ARRL, ham radio books, on microwave.

	Easy to do, for the most part, and fun.  To me anyway.

	Wit sound you can use a couple of speakers and microphones and
oscilloscope and function generator.  If you use  good quality microphones
and good tweeters from hi fi you can run at 25 to 35 k cps in the
ultrasonic .... doppler then becomes very easy to see.


			J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 22 09:27:09 1999
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Runs on Coleman Fuel!

 http://www.mecoa.com/sophia/

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 22 09:34:26 1999
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The 16.4 ounce capacity steel propane cylinders used for propane lanterns
and campstoves should be rated at least for 600 psig burst pressure.  Might
be good for replicating Les Case's experiments.

FJS

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 22 11:18:58 1999
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Subject: Re: Holosteric
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	Dear Scott and Vo.,

	Holosteric almost certainly means the sealed bellows type
barometer.... which this one is.	Thanks.  Use it for scrabble...
now to bring to a close... if I knew how and-or what it was compensated
for.... temperature is what I guess.

			John

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 22 12:03:59 1999
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>Here are some extensive quotes from: H. Collins and T. Pinch, "The Golum -
>what everyone should know about science," (Cambridge University Press,
>1993), p. 49 - 51. This does not inspire confidence in the 1919 results. I
>would dismiss cold fusion results as ambiguous as these, and skeptics would
>have a field day attacking them. (Needless to say, many published cold
>fusion experiments are as bad as this, and should be dismissed.)
>
>
>. . . From his two poor plates Eddington calculated that the displacement
>at the edge of the sun would be between 1.31 and 1.91 seconds.
>
>We can convert the 'probable error' calculations of the two groups into the
>modern langauge of 'standard deviations', and interpolate a standard
>deviation for the Sobral astrographic. For the Sobral observations the
>standard deviations are 0.178 for the good plates and 0.48 for the
>astrographic, while in the case of Eddington's plates the standard
>deviation is 0.444. (These are the calculations of John Earman and Clark
>Glymour.) A modern treatment would suggest that, assuming the measurement
>errors were distributed randomly, there is a 10% chance that the true
>answer lies further from the mean measurement than 1.5 standard deviations
>either side. With this in mind, let us sum up what we have so far, giving
>the 1.5 standard deviation intervals:
>
>10% Confidence intervals for the observations at Sobral and Principe
>
>		Low                       High
>		bound      Mean      bound
>
>Sobral
>  8 good plates       1.713      1.98      2.247
> 18 poor plates       0.140      0.86      1.580
>Principe
> 2 poor plates        0.944      1.62      2.276
>
>
>If we forget about the theory and the derivations, and pretend that we are
>making measurements in ignorance of the hypothesis -- which is, after all,
>what we do when we do 'double blind testing' for the effectiveness of drugs
>or whatever -- what would we conclude? We might argue that the two sets of
>poor plates cancel each other out, and that the remaining evidence showed
>that the displacement was higher than 1.7.

***{I would be inclined to simply toss out the 18 poor plates from
Sobral--assuming, of course, that the labels of "good" and "poor" were not
subjectively applied. --MJ}***

 Or, we might say that the eight
>good plates from Sobral were compatible with a displacement from just above
>1.7 seconds to just below 2.3, Eddington's two poor plates were compatible
>with shifts from just above 0.9 to just below 2.3, while the poor Sobral
>plates were compatible with shifts from near zero to just below 1.6. In
>either case, it would be difficult to be able to provide a clear answer.
>Nevertheless, on 6 November 1919, the Astronomer Royal announced that the
>observations had confirmed Einstein's theory.
>
>
>Interpretation of the results
>
>Even to have the results bear upon the question it had to be established
>that there were only three horses in the race: no deflection, the Newtonian
>deflection, or the Einsteinian deflection. If other possible displacements
>had been present in the 'hypothesis space' then the evidence would be
>likely to give stronger confirmation to one or other of them. . . .  There
>were other contenders at the time, but the rhetoric of the debate excluded
>them and presented the test as deciding between only the three
>possibilities: 0.0, 0.8 and 1.7.
>
>Now let all the other horses in the race be scratched at the post. Do the
>results come down on Einstein's side in an unambiguous way? The answer is
>that they do not. To make the observations come out to support Einstein,
>Eddington and the others took the Sobral 4-inch results as the main finding
>and used the two Principe plates as supporting evidence while ignoring the
>18 plates taken by the Sobral astrographic. In the debate which followed
>the Astronomer Royal's announcement, it appears that issues of authority
>were much to the fore. On 6 November 1919, Sir Joseph Thomson, the
>President of the Royal Society, chaired a meeting at which he remarked: 'It
>is difficult for the audience to weigh fully the meaning of the figures
>that have been put before us, but the Astronomer Royal and Professor
>Eddington have studied the material carefully, and they regard the evidence
>as decisively in favour of the larger value for the displacement' (quoted
>in Earman and Glymour, 1980, p. 77).

***{And so do I, given the above noted caveat. The problem, however, is
that (if we are to believe Hal Puthoff) the "Newtonian" calculation
apparently only only took gravitational deflection into account. That is,
the deflection was calculated using the "effective" mass of the photons
(E/c^2) and the Newtonian gravitational formula (F = GMm/r^2). The fact
that the density of the solar atmosphere decreased outwards from the
center, thereby converting it into a huge spherical convex lens, which by
Newtonian optics would bend light toward a focal point, thereby augmenting
the effects of the gravitational deflection, was ignored. Of course, little
was known about the density of the solar atmosphere in 1919, and so any
calculation attempting to take it into account would have been little more
than guesswork. Today, however, things are different. Thus it would make
sense to revisit this issue, just to tidy things up if for no other reason.

If it is, in fact, revisited, I would expect that a significant portion of
the total deflection would remain unexplained even *after* the optical
bending was accounted for. The reason is that I attribute GR effects of
this type to the fact that the aether is subject to the influence of
gravity and, thus, becomes more dense as the surface of the sun is
approached. Clocks run slower, light propagates at a lower velocity, etc.,
under those conditions. As a result, the total deflection of a light beam
passing near the solar surface is due to three factors, not two: (1) there
is standard optical lensing due to the presence gases in the solar
atmosphere; (2) there is gravitational deflection, as explained above; and
(3) there is a lensing effect due to increases in the density of the aether
as the surface of the sun is approached. Since I view GR as merely a
contrived attempt to ride on the back of the entrained aether theory while
denying its validity, I would expect the so called "GR" prediction to be
the more accurate than the Newtonian one, because, in reason, the Newtonian
prediction would be based on factors (1) and (2) while the "GR" prediction
would be based on (1), (2), and (3).

What GR does, in essence, is describe the *effects* of a gravitationally
attracted, compressible, entrained, particulate aether--to wit: presently
known causal processes run at speeds which are inversely proportional to
the density of the aether in which they are immersed--while denying on
"operationalist" grounds that such an aether exists. Since the entrained
aether theory beats all other theories of physics hands down, any
fraudulent construct that is based on it, including GR, is going to yield
more accurate predictions than the original Newtonian empty space theory.

Nevertheless, I would still like to see a calculation of (1), above, so
that a better idea of the relative importance of (3) might be attained.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>In 1923, however, an American commentator, W. Campbell, wrote:
>
>	Professor Eddington was inclined to assign considerable weight
>	to the African determination, but, as the few images on his
>	small number of astrographic plates were not so good as those on
>	the astrographic plates secured in Brazil, and the results from
>	the latter were given almost negligible weight, the logic of the
>	situation does not seem entirely clear.
>
>	(Quoted in Earman and Glymour, 1980, p. 78)
>
>Eddington justified ignoring the Sobral astrographic results by claiming
>that they suffered from 'systematic error' . . . It appears, however, that
>at the time he was unable to educe any convincing evidence to show that
>this was the case.

***{I agree with Eddington. The mean of the 18 poor plates from Sobral was
off in the woods by itself--vastly different from the mean of the 8 good
plates taken from the same location--and so those 18 plates needed to be
tossed out. If they had merely had more variability than the 8 good plates
taken at the same location, things would have been different. --Mitchell
Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 22 12:11:38 1999
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Note: I sent the same message twice, once with a meaningful title. Please
ignore the message with "Unidentified subject!" in the title. Thanks. --MJ

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 22 12:11:43 1999
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Solar Light Deflection
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>Here are some extensive quotes from: H. Collins and T. Pinch, "The Golum -
>what everyone should know about science," (Cambridge University Press,
>1993), p. 49 - 51. This does not inspire confidence in the 1919 results. I
>would dismiss cold fusion results as ambiguous as these, and skeptics would
>have a field day attacking them. (Needless to say, many published cold
>fusion experiments are as bad as this, and should be dismissed.)
>
>
>. . . From his two poor plates Eddington calculated that the displacement
>at the edge of the sun would be between 1.31 and 1.91 seconds.
>
>We can convert the 'probable error' calculations of the two groups into the
>modern langauge of 'standard deviations', and interpolate a standard
>deviation for the Sobral astrographic. For the Sobral observations the
>standard deviations are 0.178 for the good plates and 0.48 for the
>astrographic, while in the case of Eddington's plates the standard
>deviation is 0.444. (These are the calculations of John Earman and Clark
>Glymour.) A modern treatment would suggest that, assuming the measurement
>errors were distributed randomly, there is a 10% chance that the true
>answer lies further from the mean measurement than 1.5 standard deviations
>either side. With this in mind, let us sum up what we have so far, giving
>the 1.5 standard deviation intervals:
>
>10% Confidence intervals for the observations at Sobral and Principe
>
>		Low                       High
>		bound      Mean      bound
>
>Sobral
>  8 good plates       1.713      1.98      2.247
> 18 poor plates       0.140      0.86      1.580
>Principe
> 2 poor plates        0.944      1.62      2.276
>
>
>If we forget about the theory and the derivations, and pretend that we are
>making measurements in ignorance of the hypothesis -- which is, after all,
>what we do when we do 'double blind testing' for the effectiveness of drugs
>or whatever -- what would we conclude? We might argue that the two sets of
>poor plates cancel each other out, and that the remaining evidence showed
>that the displacement was higher than 1.7.

***{I would be inclined to simply toss out the 18 poor plates from
Sobral--assuming, of course, that the labels of "good" and "poor" were not
subjectively applied. --MJ}***

 Or, we might say that the eight
>good plates from Sobral were compatible with a displacement from just above
>1.7 seconds to just below 2.3, Eddington's two poor plates were compatible
>with shifts from just above 0.9 to just below 2.3, while the poor Sobral
>plates were compatible with shifts from near zero to just below 1.6. In
>either case, it would be difficult to be able to provide a clear answer.
>Nevertheless, on 6 November 1919, the Astronomer Royal announced that the
>observations had confirmed Einstein's theory.
>
>
>Interpretation of the results
>
>Even to have the results bear upon the question it had to be established
>that there were only three horses in the race: no deflection, the Newtonian
>deflection, or the Einsteinian deflection. If other possible displacements
>had been present in the 'hypothesis space' then the evidence would be
>likely to give stronger confirmation to one or other of them. . . .  There
>were other contenders at the time, but the rhetoric of the debate excluded
>them and presented the test as deciding between only the three
>possibilities: 0.0, 0.8 and 1.7.
>
>Now let all the other horses in the race be scratched at the post. Do the
>results come down on Einstein's side in an unambiguous way? The answer is
>that they do not. To make the observations come out to support Einstein,
>Eddington and the others took the Sobral 4-inch results as the main finding
>and used the two Principe plates as supporting evidence while ignoring the
>18 plates taken by the Sobral astrographic. In the debate which followed
>the Astronomer Royal's announcement, it appears that issues of authority
>were much to the fore. On 6 November 1919, Sir Joseph Thomson, the
>President of the Royal Society, chaired a meeting at which he remarked: 'It
>is difficult for the audience to weigh fully the meaning of the figures
>that have been put before us, but the Astronomer Royal and Professor
>Eddington have studied the material carefully, and they regard the evidence
>as decisively in favour of the larger value for the displacement' (quoted
>in Earman and Glymour, 1980, p. 77).

***{And so do I, given the above noted caveat. The problem, however, is
that (if we are to believe Hal Puthoff) the "Newtonian" calculation
apparently only only took gravitational deflection into account. That is,
the deflection was calculated using the "effective" mass of the photons
(E/c^2) and the Newtonian gravitational formula (F = GMm/r^2). The fact
that the density of the solar atmosphere decreased outwards from the
center, thereby converting it into a huge spherical convex lens, which by
Newtonian optics would bend light toward a focal point, thereby augmenting
the effects of the gravitational deflection, was ignored. Of course, little
was known about the density of the solar atmosphere in 1919, and so any
calculation attempting to take it into account would have been little more
than guesswork. Today, however, things are different. Thus it would make
sense to revisit this issue, just to tidy things up if for no other reason.

If it is, in fact, revisited, I would expect that a significant portion of
the total deflection would remain unexplained even *after* the optical
bending was accounted for. The reason is that I attribute GR effects of
this type to the fact that the aether is subject to the influence of
gravity and, thus, becomes more dense as the surface of the sun is
approached. Clocks run slower, light propagates at a lower velocity, etc.,
under those conditions. As a result, the total deflection of a light beam
passing near the solar surface is due to three factors, not two: (1) there
is standard optical lensing due to the presence gases in the solar
atmosphere; (2) there is gravitational deflection, as explained above; and
(3) there is a lensing effect due to increases in the density of the aether
as the surface of the sun is approached. Since I view GR as merely a
contrived attempt to ride on the back of the entrained aether theory while
denying its validity, I would expect the so called "GR" prediction to be
the more accurate than the Newtonian one, because, in reason, the Newtonian
prediction would be based on factors (1) and (2) while the "GR" prediction
would be based on (1), (2), and (3).

What GR does, in essence, is describe the *effects* of a gravitationally
attracted, compressible, entrained, particulate aether--to wit: presently
known causal processes run at speeds which are inversely proportional to
the density of the aether in which they are immersed--while denying on
"operationalist" grounds that such an aether exists. Since the entrained
aether theory beats all other theories of physics hands down, any
fraudulent construct that is based on it, including GR, is going to yield
more accurate predictions than the original Newtonian empty space theory.

Nevertheless, I would still like to see a calculation of (1), above, so
that a better idea of the relative importance of (3) might be attained.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>In 1923, however, an American commentator, W. Campbell, wrote:
>
>	Professor Eddington was inclined to assign considerable weight
>	to the African determination, but, as the few images on his
>	small number of astrographic plates were not so good as those on
>	the astrographic plates secured in Brazil, and the results from
>	the latter were given almost negligible weight, the logic of the
>	situation does not seem entirely clear.
>
>	(Quoted in Earman and Glymour, 1980, p. 78)
>
>Eddington justified ignoring the Sobral astrographic results by claiming
>that they suffered from 'systematic error' . . . It appears, however, that
>at the time he was unable to educe any convincing evidence to show that
>this was the case.

***{I agree with Eddington. The mean of the 18 poor plates from Sobral was
off in the woods by itself--vastly different from the mean of the 8 good
plates taken from the same location--and so those 18 plates needed to be
tossed out. If they had merely had more variability than the 8 good plates
taken at the same location, things would have been different. --Mitchell
Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 22 12:17:43 1999
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Subject: Re: Liter-Sized Propane Bottles for Case-Type Experiments
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If it's not stainless, the stress corrosion cracking caused by hydrogen
would be a problem.


Ed Wall
New Energy Research Laboratory
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822    fax:(603) 224-5975
ewall infinite-energy.com     www.infinite-energy.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: Liter-Sized Propane Bottles for Case-Type Experiments


> The 16.4 ounce capacity steel propane cylinders used for propane lanterns
> and campstoves should be rated at least for 600 psig burst pressure.
Might
> be good for replicating Les Case's experiments.
>
> FJS
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 22 13:44:53 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Stable Isotope Fission
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:39:35 -0700
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Another argument against more than two heavy fission fragments, Robin.

The neutron induced fission has to surmount an energy barrier of  5.0 - 5.6
Mev
which is just below the ~6.0 Mev neutron capture energy release.

Deuteron Capture goes up to 10.0 to > 12.0   Mev which should allow fission
of lighter elements. (not counting B10 & Li6) :-)

The "figure of merit" equation:  x = Z^2/(47*A) illustrates this:

Isotope              x           neutron fission          deuteron fission

90Th232      0.7428              no                             yes?

92U233       0.7729             yes                              yes

92U235       0.7663             yes                              yes

92U238       0.7566              no                               yes?

94Pu239      0.7866             yes                               yes


40Zr90         0.3783             no                                 yes?

46Pd106      0.4247              no                                 yes?

54Xe132      0.4700              no                                 yes?

55Cs137       0.4698              no                                 yes?


74W184       0.6332              no                                 yes?

80Hg202      0.6741              no                                 yes?

82Pb208      0.6878              no                                 yes?

83Bi209       0.7013              no                                  yes?

Regards,         Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 22 16:13:26 1999
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Jones Beene. Here is your  airborne Neutrino collector. :-)

If you run air, water-K2CO3 through it,with the positive side exposed to
the air-liquid, you might/should see some potassium to calcium transmutation
occurring.

 http://www3.mmm.com/occsafety/html/vol14_no1_1996.html

They have sheets of Electret film also. Should make for some interesting
experiments.

Regards,    Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 22 16:30:57 1999
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Cute.

 http://www.wpi.org/Initiatives/init/fall98/radelec.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 22 16:48:53 1999
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

> ...an airborne Neutrino collector.
>
>  http://www3.mmm.com/occsafety/html/vol14_no1_1996.html

>From that site: "Electret" HEPA filters, which are relatively new, are a type of
electrostatic filter. Electret filters have electrostatic charges permanently embedded
into their filter fibers. These electrostatic charges augment the mechanical filtering
capability of the fibrous filter medium without
contributing to airflow resistance. The filter fibers, typically made from a
polymer...."

Are these fibers "doped" with n or p charge carriers? I assume ion implantation would
be too expensive. Perhaps you can buy them doped with K from the start. Hey, use
deuterated polymer material also, and viola, the world's first self-heating
clothing... that is, if you don't count the early rayon stuff. Back in the fifties
rayon had a habit of igniting from dropped cigarette ashes...

Regards,
Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 22 18:58:04 1999
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From: rvanspaa bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
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Subject: Re: Stable Isotope Fission
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 01:56:31 GMT
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On Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:39:35 -0700, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Another argument against more than two heavy fission fragments, Robin.

I must be dense. I fail to see how the figures below argue against more
than two fission products.

>
>The neutron induced fission has to surmount an energy barrier of  5.0 - 5.6
>Mev
>which is just below the ~6.0 Mev neutron capture energy release.
>
>Deuteron Capture goes up to 10.0 to > 12.0   Mev which should allow fission
>of lighter elements. (not counting B10 & Li6) :-)

Thanks for emphasising something I said myself a few weeks ago. ;)

>
>The "figure of merit" equation:  x = Z^2/(47*A) illustrates this:
>
>Isotope              x           neutron fission          deuteron fission
>
>90Th232      0.7428              no                             yes?
>
>92U233       0.7729             yes                              yes
>
>92U235       0.7663             yes                              yes
>
>92U238       0.7566              no                               yes?
>
>94Pu239      0.7866             yes                               yes
>
>
>40Zr90         0.3783             no                                 yes?
>
>46Pd106      0.4247              no                                 yes?
>
>54Xe132      0.4700              no                                 yes?
>
>55Cs137       0.4698              no                                 yes?
>
>
>74W184       0.6332              no                                 yes?
>
>80Hg202      0.6741              no                                 yes?
>
>82Pb208      0.6878              no                                 yes?
>
>83Bi209       0.7013              no                                  yes?
>
>Regards,         Frederick
>
How does your figure of merit relate to particle capture energy release?

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 22 19:44:35 1999
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Subject: Re: Stable Isotope Fission
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----- Original Message -----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: Stable Isotope Fission

Robin wrote:

[Snip]


>
> I must be dense. I fail to see how the figures below argue against more
> than two fission products
>

If you find more than two heavy fragments ( about 0.35*A and  0.65*A
mostly)+ ~ 2.9 Neutrons,
in fission reactions that have been studied for about 70 years, I would be
pleasantly surprised. :-)

>
> How does your figure of merit relate to particle capture energy release?

That's NOT MY figure of merit, that is a measure of neutron capture and
fission used by the
fission physics folks. Seems to me that the numbers are self-evident, Robin.

Regards,   Frederick
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 22 19:53:02 1999
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I was trying to produce a cathode using nickel plating today, but just
> ended up getting hydrogen production and nickel hydroxide, with no
> plating. Could someone tell me how to ensure that the nickel plates out,
> instead of producing hydrogen?
> 
> TIA,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

  The Enthone Co. in Connectiut makes an electroless nickel plating
  solution.
  Ron

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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Stable Isotope Fission
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>The "figure of merit" equation:  x = Z^2/(47*A) illustrates this:
>
>Isotope         x           neutron fission          deuteron fission
>
>90Th232      0.7428              no                             yes?
>
>92U233       0.7729             yes                             yes
>
>92U235       0.7663             yes                             yes
> 
>92U238       0.7566              no                             yes?
>
>94Pu239      0.7866             yes                             yes

Both 90Th232 and 92U238 DO undergo fission by neutrons, if the neutrons have
enough energy (many MeV). The other neutron fissionable isotopes you list are
fissioned by neutrons of any energy.
===
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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Subject: RE: [Fwd: Doppler effect & Relativity questions]
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Jack,
I remember one of my managers are few years ago questioning whether cosmology was science...
Remi.
-----Original Message-----
From:	Taylor J. Smith [SMTP:tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net]
Sent:	21 August 1999 21:50
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	Re: [Fwd: Doppler effect & Relativity questions]


-----Original Message-----
From:	Taylor J. Smith [SMTP:tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net]
Sent:	19 August 1999 23:00
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	Re: [Fwd: Doppler effect & Relativity questions]

Jack wrote:

Halton Arp, in "Seeing Red", says that we see blue shift
when electrons, which are more massive than the electrons
in our solar system, move from one orbital to amother.
We see red shift when electrons, which are less massive
than the electrons in our solar system, move from one
orbital to amother.  More massive electrons emit more
energy when they jump.

Remi wrote:

For this effect to work they must get more massive for blue,
less for red. How do you resolve this with mass increase
for any relative speed?

Hi Remi.

Arp (and Hoyle) in "Seeing Red" says that electrons
have zero mass when they are created and a velocity of c.
As they age, their "rest" mass increases; and, to conserve
momentum, they slow down.  By the time they have separated
from their parent galaxies as quasars, they are nowhwere
near the speed of light; so mass increase with relative
speed is insignificant.

The important thing is the youthfulness of the quasars.
Some have tied themselves up in the epicycular contortions
of enormous amounts of dark matter in order to save the
doctrine that high redshift objects must be travelling
at high velocities.  These contortions will probably be
the phlogiston theory of the 20th century.

Jack Smith



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-----Original Message-----
From:	Michael Schaffer [SMTP:schaffermj yahoo.com]
Sent:	22 August 1999 05:51
To:	vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:	Re: [Fwd: Doppler effect & Relativity questions]

Someone highlighted this question in general in another post. In the
direction toward an observer whom the source is approaching, the energy =
for
the blue shift comes from the radiation pressure times the speed of =
advance
(force times distance, which is power, or energy per time). Red shift is =
the
opposite, since the radiation pressure appears to do work on the =
receding
source.

[]  Okay, you're in an inertial frame and your rate of energy production =
(for your red shift case) is dependent on a non-local interaction of =
someone measuring in a distant inertial frame. Do I read this correctly?
Remi.
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AAWACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABShQAAtw0AAAMACYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAGF
AAAAAAAAHgASgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAVIUAAAEAAAAEAAAAOC4wAAsAFoAIIAYAAAAA
AMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAA6FAAAAAAAAAwAXgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAADABmA
CCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAYhQAAAAAAAB4AKIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAAB
AAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeACmACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA3hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgAqgAgg
BgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAwAN
NP03AABWeg==

------ =_NextPart_000_01BEED46.40CFB3C0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 23 02:31:59 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <jonesb9@cwnet.com>
Subject: Re: Neutrino-Electret Transmutation Casserole
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 03:25:15 -0700
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This is it, Jones.  :-)

Lay a sheet of teflon electret foil in a shallow casserole dish, then add a
0.1 molar
aqueous solution of K2CO3 to a depth of about a millimeter.

Let set at room temperature (well ventilated) for at least 24 hours:

K+  +   H+  +  Neutrino Catalyst ---->   Ca++

Walla,   K2CO3 ---->    CaCO3 +  K+   +  OH-  !

If this doesn't pan out, so to speak, you might contact Julia Childs to see
what she thinks, then maybe, get a second opinion from Martha Stewart.
  www.marthastewart.com .

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 23 06:32:40 1999
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From: Remi Cornwall <r.o.cornwall city.ac.uk>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Artificat out in space
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:32:38 +0100
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Vo,
I heard a news story about a week ago about how astronomers were puzzled about some artifact in space. They couldn't discern whether it was in our galaxy or further away. The spectrum did conform to any known.

What's happening? Are we going to get invaded by ETs? This time, will the invasion be televised? Could ET please time it not to intefere with the atheletics coverage from Spain, this will piss people off.
Remi.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 23 06:49:12 1999
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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Remi Cornwall wrote:
> 
> Vo,
> I heard a news story about a week ago about how astronomers were puzzled about some artifact in space. They couldn't discern whether it was in our galaxy or further away. The spectrum did conform to any known.
> 
> What's happening? Are we going to get invaded by ETs? This time, will the invasion be televised? Could ET please time it not to intefere with the atheletics coverage from Spain, this will piss people off.
> Remi.

It is a body with a unique spectrum.  See:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/light990818.html

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 23 09:28:38 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Phase shift
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:25:34 -0700
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For a square wave delay, the simplest practical circuit is a one-shot
mutivibrator. Take your 555 oscillator, put the output into a one-shot,
adjust its delay with a pot to less then a period, and take your output from
it.

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	John Berry[SMTP:antigrav ihug.co.nz]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Friday, August 20, 1999 9:54 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: Phase shift
> 
> 
> 
> Michael Schaffer wrote:
> 
> > John Berry wrote:
> > >If you have capacitors in series and resistors in parallel you create
> > >the well known phase shift oscilator.
> > >
> > >question1:
> > >Is there a limit with enough stages how much you can shift the phase?
> >
> > No limit, other than that the amplitude is less at each RC stage down
> the
> > ladder.
> >
> > >question2:
> > >Does it work with square wave DC? I would like to get away with a 555
> > >powering it...
> >
> > Yes, if you change to phase LAG elements, where you have resistors in
> series
> > and capacitors in parallel. Phase lead, which is what you proposed
> above,
> > will tend to differentiate the waveforms; this will turn the steps of
> your
> > square wave form into spikes, and the next stage will turn the spikes
> into
> > spikier spikes, etc. Neat to look at, but probably not what you want.
> Phase
> > lag will turn the square wave triangluar; the next stage will turn that
> into
> > a sort of multiple parabolas. By the third stage and beyond, the wave
> will be
> > almost indistinguishable from sinusoidal, with each one lagging in phase
> and
> > somewhat lower in amplitude from the preceding one.
> 
> That's what I thought would happen, guess I need a better plan.
> 
> >
> >
> > If you want phase shifted square waves, then no passive circuit other
> than a
> > true delay line will work for you. You can use active circuits, though,
> with
> > each one triggering the next one through a delay circuit.
> 
> Can you please elaborate on these two options?
> 
> >
> > ===
> > Michael J. Schaffer
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 23 09:57:04 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Stable Isotope Fission
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:53:14 -0700
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Frederick
"7" is the only self evident number
Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Frederick Sparber[SMTP:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Sunday, August 22, 1999 8:40 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: Stable Isotope Fission
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 6:56 PM
> Subject: Re: Stable Isotope Fission
> 
> Robin wrote:
> 
> [Snip]
> 
> 
> >
> > I must be dense. I fail to see how the figures below argue against more
> > than two fission products
> >
> 
> If you find more than two heavy fragments ( about 0.35*A and  0.65*A
> mostly)+ ~ 2.9 Neutrons,
> in fission reactions that have been studied for about 70 years, I would be
> pleasantly surprised. :-)
> 
> >
> > How does your figure of merit relate to particle capture energy release?
> 
> That's NOT MY figure of merit, that is a measure of neutron capture and
> fission used by the
> fission physics folks. Seems to me that the numbers are self-evident,
> Robin.
> 
> Regards,   Frederick
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
> >
> >
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 23 10:18:38 1999
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From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ca-ois.com>
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Michael Schaffer wrote:

(snip)

> >Who's equipment is performing the CORRECT measurement?
> >
> >a. The earth's
> >b. The ship's
> >c. The Centaurians
> 
> They all are preforming correct measurements.

I guess this is just where "common sense" has to give way to some kind
of abtract reasoning based on ....what? 

How can three different "solutions" result from the operation of one
constant (c) on two variables (-V for red shift +V for blue shift)? 

The earth based tracking station will count a reduced number of
oscillations of the ships transmitter over the entire period of the
voyage due to the receding nature of their source * the Doppler effect,
Right? Therefore it can reasonably be stated that from earth's point of
view, time is slowing down for the ships occupants. 

However from the Centaurian's point of view, sharing the SAME inertial
reference frame as the earth due to the fact that they are not moving
with respect to it, they count an 
increased number of oscillations of the ships transmitter over the
course of the voyage due to the advancing nature of their source * the
Doppler effect, correct?

 Since Earth and Alpha centauri both share the same inertial frame,
identical clocks placed in both locations will mark an equivalent amount
of time for the duration of the voyage. Lets say over a five year or so
period that this voyage will take as viewed from earth and alpha c, and
the ship going at going at sub c velocities, a transmitter operationg at
1450 mhz would produce 2.28636e+014 oscillations. Since as viewed from
the earth the doppler effect will have reduced this number due to the
decrease in frequency observed, on Alpha Centauri D the same effect will
increase the number of oscillations observed over the SAME TIME PERIOD
as measured by identical clocks on both planets, correct?

I do not see how you can have it all three ways. There are a finite
number of oscillations per second, per day, per year. You have a finite
number of years that the voyage lasts (5). If the voyage lasts the same
number of years as viewd from both planets then there will be
approxinmately 2.28636e+014 full cycle oscillations produced by a 1450
mhz transmitter. 

Yet the Doppler effect dictated that the observed number of full cycle
oscillations will increase for the centaurians, and decrease for the
earth's OVER THE SAME TIME PERIOD.

Where do the decreased number of oscillations disappear to as observed
from the earth, and where do the increased number of oscillations come
from as observed from Alpha C?

> 
> >Is time dilating for the ships occupants?
> >
> >1. yes
> >2. no
> 
> Time is passing more slowly for the ship's occupants than for Earthlings and
> Centaurians.

If time is passing more slowly for the ship's occupants , how can it be
presumed that they would observe a doppler redshifted (slower than
normal) event coming from the receding position , say an oscillation of
an identical transmitter on Earth? That kind of event would take an
increased amount of time from the astronauts point of view, right?

So as the astronauts see earth, earth events happen more slowly. Ship
events therefore happen more quickly. This means to the astronauats,
time is speeding up, right?

Yet the same kind of event (an oscillation) taking place on Centauri
will take a decreased amount of time.  

So as the astronauts see Alpha C, events happen more quickly. Therefore
ship events happen more slowly. This means for the astronauts, time is
slowing down, right? 

How can time both speed up and slow down at the same position within the
ship, just because you happen to be looking in one direction or another?
Wouldn't all this amount to a zero sum situation?

In what sense then is time only "slowing down" for the astronauts?

Jim Ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 23 11:14:35 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Doppler effect & Relativity questions]
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Jim
	This is a great book. I copied the writeup from Amazon.com

Spacetime Physics : Introduction to Special Relativity 
by Edwin F. Taylor, John Archibald Wheeler, Archibald Wheeler
(Contributor) 
Our Price: $35.95

                             Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours.

Paperback - 312 pages 2nd edition (December 1992) 
W H Freeman & Co.; ISBN: 0716723271 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.82 x
10.98 x 8.51 
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 28,256 

nmitskie udgserv.cencar.udg.mx from Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico , March 21,

One of gems of the introductory scientific literature 
This is the book I always recommend to my undergraduate students as the best
written as well as best based introduction to relativity. It is written with
such a
touch of simplicity and at the same time profound professionalism that
reader is
subconsciously engrossed in the subject and becomes an active participant of
his/her, probably, first scientific quest. I know this book from its first
two
editions, in fact, I have made its Russian translations (its corresponding
two
editions in Russian many years ago), and with each new original appearance
its
was substantially revised and updated. It is a must to have this book for
every
beginner in (at least) exact sciences. 

fleming fma.if.usp.br from Sao Paulo, Brazil , July 18, 1998  
A great accomplishment! 
edition, and will continue with the second. It is the only book I know which
gives you a global picture of special relativity, both theory and methods
for
 solving problems. What I liked most of it is the intense use of the very
powerful
raphical methods it develops right at the beginning. In this way you solve
with
two strokes of chalk a problem which would involve lots of algebra, and get
a
much better understanding of the whole thing. The concepts are introduced in
a
very careful, if elementary, way, through a deep analysis of simple
experiments.
The discovery of the correct relativistic form of the momentum, for
instance, is
particularly enlightening. It is a joy to see how much and how good physics
can
be done with almost no mathematics. The exercises are also splendid. 

A reader from Maui , July 7, 1998  
This book truly explains special relativity. 
This is a college text to teach special relativity at an introductory level.
It has
been worked and reworked. The topic is drilled and redrilled in an
accessible
and complete manner. If you're frustrated by the flip summaries, and really
want
to understand topics like the twin paradox, this is the book! The math is
presented but is not the language of the book. The coverage includes ALL of
the
areas where special relativity applies, many in exercises and special
"boxes".
You can go as far as you like. You will never again wonder what special
relativity means, or doubt the consequences of the theory! 



> ----------
> From: 	Jim Ostrowski[SMTP:jimostr ca-ois.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Monday, August 23, 1999 10:05 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: [Fwd: Doppler effect & Relativity questions]
> 
> Michael Schaffer wrote:
> 
> (snip)
> 
> > >Who's equipment is performing the CORRECT measurement?
> > >
> > >a. The earth's
> > >b. The ship's
> > >c. The Centaurians
> > 
> > They all are preforming correct measurements.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 23 15:00:41 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Neutrino Velocity (Light Speed) in Metals
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 15:54:12 -0700
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The literature gives the velocity of waves in metals/conductors:

v = (1.0E7*frequency/conductivity)^1/2 . For a neutrino with a rest energy
of 0.5 ev
f = 1.20E14 Hz. For copper the conductivity = 5.8E7 Mho/meter,
for Pd, 9.26E6 Mho/meter.

This gives a (light speed) neutrino velocity of 1.138E7 meters/second in Pd,
and
4.55E6 meters/second in copper, which is twice the velocity of the
ground state Bohr electron in the hydrogen atom.

If you apply Snell's law of total internal reflection, the neutrino should
stay in a metal indefinitely once it's in there.  :-)

Regards,     Frederick





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 23 16:20:19 1999
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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199908232313.SAA07517 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Doppler effect & Relativity questions]
In-Reply-To: <37C17F47.1020 ca-ois.com> from Jim Ostrowski at "Aug 23, 99 10:05:12 am"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:13:10 -0500 (CDT)
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> Where do the decreased number of oscillations disappear to as observed
> from the earth, and where do the increased number of oscillations come
> from as observed from Alpha C?

It all reconciles consistently if you accept that everything removed
from you by distance X is also recessed in time by some constant
factor multiplied by distance X.

Therefore anything moving away from you is also falling behind in time.
And anything moving toward you is advancing faster in time.  This is
independent of their rate of motion, since the effect is only dependent
upon the product of displacement and constant. (It also doesn't matter who
is moving, you or the external object.)  If they are moving fast, then
the distance is reduce (or increased) more quickly, so the time
adjustment has to occur more quickly -- but over a shorter total
period of time for the same distance covered -- hence the product
of distance times a constant is independent of the rate at which
the distance was crossed.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

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From: rvanspaa bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stable Isotope Fission
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 23:23:42 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <37c2d48b.88094124 mail-hub>
References: <01e301beece6$f45b2600$b1441d26 fjsparber> <37c38bd4.3919374@mail-hub> <025801beed19$49d34360$b1441d26@fjsparber>
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On Sun, 22 Aug 1999 20:40:35 -0700, Frederick Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>> I must be dense. I fail to see how the figures below argue against more
>> than two fission products
>>
>
>If you find more than two heavy fragments ( about 0.35*A and  0.65*A
>mostly)+ ~ 2.9 Neutrons,
>in fission reactions that have been studied for about 70 years, I would be
>pleasantly surprised. :-)
>

What you are talking about here, is a distribution of fragments. While
the distribution does have peaks, there still isn't any way to prove
that no individual reaction occurs with more than two daughter products.
(Granted, 2 fragments are the most common result).

>>
>> How does your figure of merit relate to particle capture energy release?
>
>That's NOT MY figure of merit, that is a measure of neutron capture and
>fission used by the
>fission physics folks. Seems to me that the numbers are self-evident, Robin.

Fine, it's an accepted and widely used figure, but that doesn't answer
the question. I had thought perhaps that you might explain the
derivation of the formula to me (because I don't know).
[snip]


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

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From: rvanspaa bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stable Isotope Fission
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 23:25:16 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Sun, 22 Aug 1999 22:03:15 -0700 (PDT), Michael Schaffer wrote:

>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
Actually Frederick supplied the table.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

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Subject: Re: Stable Isotope Fission
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----- Original Message -----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: Stable Isotope Fission

Robin wrote:
>
> What you are talking about here, is a distribution of fragments. While
> the distribution does have peaks, there still isn't any way to prove
> that no individual reaction occurs with more than two daughter products.
> (Granted, 2 fragments are the most common result).

The fission products range from a Z of 36 (Kr) to a Z of 60 (Nd) and
an atomic weight spread from (Kr90) to (Nd150) plus a few Alphas,
and a couple of neutrons, with an energy release of  160-168 Mev.

Ron Brodzinski at PNL tells me that there are "very rare" 3 particle
fissions tha will yield Boron or such.

If you split into 3 fragments the energy decreases, you would spot such an
anomaly in fragment analysis.
>
> Fine, it's an accepted and widely used figure, but that doesn't answer
> the question. I had thought perhaps that you might explain the
> derivation of the formula to me (because I don't know).

Actually, it is called the "Fissility Parameter" (x) derived from a charged
liquid
drop model:  x  =  (charge)^2/[10(volume)(surface tension)].

>From this,  for thermal neutron fission,  x  =   Z^2/(47*A) gives a
number that determines "fissility".

If the drop splits into 3 drops, instead of two, it won't work,
unless you're talking Mev energy neutrons/spallation.

Regards,    Frederick
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 23 19:50:19 1999
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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:49:41 +1200
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
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By this method you could power a number of coils in a row with a traveling
magnetic pulse wave? Right?

"Scudder, Henry J" wrote:

> For a square wave delay, the simplest practical circuit is a one-shot
> mutivibrator. Take your 555 oscillator, put the output into a one-shot,
> adjust its delay with a pot to less then a period, and take your output from
> it.
>
> Hank
>
> > ----------
> > From:         John Berry[SMTP:antigrav ihug.co.nz]
> > Reply To:     vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Sent:         Friday, August 20, 1999 9:54 PM
> > To:   vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Subject:      Re: Phase shift
> >
> >
> >
> > Michael Schaffer wrote:
> >
> > > John Berry wrote:
> > > >If you have capacitors in series and resistors in parallel you create
> > > >the well known phase shift oscilator.
> > > >
> > > >question1:
> > > >Is there a limit with enough stages how much you can shift the phase?
> > >
> > > No limit, other than that the amplitude is less at each RC stage down
> > the
> > > ladder.
> > >
> > > >question2:
> > > >Does it work with square wave DC? I would like to get away with a 555
> > > >powering it...
> > >
> > > Yes, if you change to phase LAG elements, where you have resistors in
> > series
> > > and capacitors in parallel. Phase lead, which is what you proposed
> > above,
> > > will tend to differentiate the waveforms; this will turn the steps of
> > your
> > > square wave form into spikes, and the next stage will turn the spikes
> > into
> > > spikier spikes, etc. Neat to look at, but probably not what you want.
> > Phase
> > > lag will turn the square wave triangluar; the next stage will turn that
> > into
> > > a sort of multiple parabolas. By the third stage and beyond, the wave
> > will be
> > > almost indistinguishable from sinusoidal, with each one lagging in phase
> > and
> > > somewhat lower in amplitude from the preceding one.
> >
> > That's what I thought would happen, guess I need a better plan.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > If you want phase shifted square waves, then no passive circuit other
> > than a
> > > true delay line will work for you. You can use active circuits, though,
> > with
> > > each one triggering the next one through a delay circuit.
> >
> > Can you please elaborate on these two options?
> >
> > >
> > > ===
> > > Michael J. Schaffer
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
> >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 24 07:53:37 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Steven Jones and Cold Fusion
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Tom Stolper writes:

	I have a very bad feeling about transmutation claims beyond 4He
	or 3He.  Look  what happened with RIFEX, and at what happened to
	CETI as a result.  I think  that transmutation claims beyond
	helium present skeptics with some of the  fattest and easiest
	targets that they've ever had, and that they obscure the 
	reality of the principal phenomenon, namely, excess heat.

What did happen with RIFEX? Nothing as far as I know. There have been no
retractions by CETI, and no verifications by anyone else. It is
inconclusive. If 10 labs had tried it and failed, and three others had
looked at CETI's own samples and found ordinary isomers where CETI thought
there were peculiar isotopes, that would be firm proof that the claims were
wrong. CETI's present problems have nothing to do with RIFEX. They are
caused by the fact that CETI cannot replicate the beads which they
purchased 35 years ago.

Instead of looking at CETI, look what happened with Bockris and Mizuno.
Mizuno's samples were tested by three independent industrial labs using
four different types of mass spectrometer, and all three confirmed the
unnatural isotopes. Bockris and Hodko's results are rock solid. No skeptic
has found an error in that work -- none has even tried as far as I know.
Miley et al. continue to find solid evidence of fission and heavy fusion
products. Skeptics like Murray challenged their work, but I do not take
people like him seriously. I cannot judge spectroscopy, but his claims
about calorimetry and other subjects I do understand were wildly incorrect.

I do not understand where this "bad feeling" comes from. Anyway, feelings
are no guide to scientific truth. Look at the facts, the data and the
replications. If you have doubts, request a sample of material and look at
it with your own mass spectrometer. Most of the shifted isotopes are
stable. They will remain in the cathodes forever. The proof is there for
anyone who has the means to see it.

- Jed

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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
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John
	You could do this with a shift register directly if you wanted to.
Drive it with the clock at whatever frequency you want to shift the coils
at.

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	John Berry[SMTP:antigrav ihug.co.nz]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Monday, August 23, 1999 7:49 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: Phase shift
> 
> By this method you could power a number of coils in a row with a traveling
> magnetic pulse wave? Right?
> 
> "Scudder, Henry J" wrote:
> 
> > For a square wave delay, the simplest practical circuit is a one-shot
> > mutivibrator. Take your 555 oscillator, put the output into a one-shot,
> > adjust its delay with a pot to less then a period, and take your output
> from
> > it.
> >
> > Hank
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From:         John Berry[SMTP:antigrav ihug.co.nz]
> > > Reply To:     vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > Sent:         Friday, August 20, 1999 9:54 PM
> > > To:   vortex-l eskimo.com
> > > Subject:      Re: Phase shift
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Michael Schaffer wrote:
> > >
> > > > John Berry wrote:
> > > > >If you have capacitors in series and resistors in parallel you
> create
> > > > >the well known phase shift oscilator.
> > > > >
> > > > >question1:
> > > > >Is there a limit with enough stages how much you can shift the
> phase?
> > > >
> > > > No limit, other than that the amplitude is less at each RC stage
> down
> > > the
> > > > ladder.
> > > >
> > > > >question2:
> > > > >Does it work with square wave DC? I would like to get away with a
> 555
> > > > >powering it...
> > > >
> > > > Yes, if you change to phase LAG elements, where you have resistors
> in
> > > series
> > > > and capacitors in parallel. Phase lead, which is what you proposed
> > > above,
> > > > will tend to differentiate the waveforms; this will turn the steps
> of
> > > your
> > > > square wave form into spikes, and the next stage will turn the
> spikes
> > > into
> > > > spikier spikes, etc. Neat to look at, but probably not what you
> want.
> > > Phase
> > > > lag will turn the square wave triangluar; the next stage will turn
> that
> > > into
> > > > a sort of multiple parabolas. By the third stage and beyond, the
> wave
> > > will be
> > > > almost indistinguishable from sinusoidal, with each one lagging in
> phase
> > > and
> > > > somewhat lower in amplitude from the preceding one.
> > >
> > > That's what I thought would happen, guess I need a better plan.
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > If you want phase shifted square waves, then no passive circuit
> other
> > > than a
> > > > true delay line will work for you. You can use active circuits,
> though,
> > > with
> > > > each one triggering the next one through a delay circuit.
> > >
> > > Can you please elaborate on these two options?
> > >
> > > >
> > > > ===
> > > > Michael J. Schaffer
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
> > >
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 24 09:18:39 1999
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Message-ID: <37C2C5AD.3A61CD90 bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:17:49 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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This is the location of the magnetometer:

http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/cgi.mg.fcgi

Terry

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From:

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/pressrel/99_66.htm

	<><><><><><><><><>

NASA GLENN ANNOUNCES BREAKTHROUGH PROPULSION PHYSICS SELECTIONS

NASA Glenn Research Center announces the selection of six
proposals for experiments and theoretical work in Breakthrough
Propulsion Physics -- research that may ultimately lead to
methods of practical interstellar travel.

The distances between stars is so great that with existing
propulsion technology a probe would travel tens of thousands of
years before reaching our nearest neighboring star. Even with the
most ambitious new propulsion technology based on known physics,
it would still be extremely difficult for a probe to reach that
far within 50 years. To overcome these limitations to practical
interstellar space travel, new propulsion physics is being sought
by the Breakthrough Propulsion Physics program. These six
research selections are an early step in this process.

"Intriguing developments have appeared in recent scientific
literature that can serve as starting points for this kind of
research," said Marc Millis, the project manager for the program
at Glenn. The Breakthrough Propulsion Physics program is the
beginning of NASA's effort to systematically assess these
findings and theories. "At this stage of research, success is
defined as learning more about these developments rather than
achieving breakthroughs," Millis added. 

The proposals were selected after a two-stage peer review
process. In the first stage, 50 specialists from academia,
government and industry scored the 60 proposals received. In the
second stage, government reviewers selected a variety of
approaches from the top ranking proposals. 

The proposers will negotiate for grants, contracts or cooperative
agreements worth a total program value of $430,000. The principal
investigators and a brief description of the work they proposed
follow:

(1) John Cramer (University of Washington, Seattle, WA) proposed
a test to see if rapidly changing electric fields can affect
inertia as suggested in 1991 by James Woodward, in the journal
Foundations of Physics Letters. If there is such an effect, it
may be exploited to develop a new method of space propulsion. In
any case, the research will add to the understanding of how
inertia is tied to the surrounding matter of the universe.

(2) Jordan Maclay (Quantum Fields LLC, Richland Center, WI) and
MEMS Optical Inc. (Huntsville, AL) proposed an experimental and
theoretical study of quantum vacuum energy. The experiments will
use micro-electromechanical devices to test force and energy
effects predicted by quantum electrodynamics. 

(3) Harry Ringermacher (General Electric Corporate Research and
Development, Schenectady, NY) with the collaboration of
researchers from Washington University, St. Louis, MO, and United
Technologies Research Center, East Hartford, CT, proposed a
magnetic resonance experiment to test a theory linking
electromagnetism, mass, and time. Ringermacher originally
published the theory in 1994, in the journal Classical and
Quantum Gravity.

(4) Glen Robertson and Ron Litchford (NASA Marshall Space Flight
Center, Huntsville, AL) proposed an experimental study of
possible links between superconductors and gravity as recently
discussed in several scientific journals. They plan to use a
torsion balance, similar to those used to search for
material-dependant gravitational effects, to search for
superconductor-gravity effects. 

(5) Kevin Malloy (University of New Mexico, Albuquerque, NM) and
Raymond Chiao (University of California at Berkeley, Berkeley,
CA) proposed experiments and theoretical work on "superluminal
quantum tunneling," an effect where light appears to pass through
barriers faster than it travels through normal space. The
proposed research will critically examine some of the
faster-than-light hypotheses associated with this effect.

(6) Serguei Krasnikov (Altamonte Springs, FL) proposed to
theoretically assess the necessity of "negative energy" suggested
in recent scientific literature on hyperfast travel. The
possibilities for enabling hyperfast travel is more feasible if
negative energy is not required. 

The Glenn Breakthrough Propulsion Physics program is part of a
continuing effort to provide the scientific advancements
necessary for future propulsion technology. It is funded by the
Advanced Space Transportation Program, managed by NASA Marshall
Space Flight Center, Huntsville, AL, and the Advanced Concepts
Program of the NASA Office of Space Science, Washington, DC.

Summaries of the proposals are available at:

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/pressrel/99_66addm.htm

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC Old undersea comm cables reused
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For telecommunications buffs, here is an interesting on-line article at:

http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/082499sci-ocean-cables.html


Old Phone Cables Open Sea Bed to Science

By MALCOLM W. BROWNE

Making use of thousands of miles of discarded telephone cables, scientists
have begun to wire remote regions of deep ocean floor to create an undersea
network of geological observatories. 

The old cables will serve as deep-sea extension cords running thousands . . .

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 24 12:35:43 1999
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Subject: Re: Eclipse
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At 04:00 AM 8/20/1999 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>If the frequency changes dependant upon reference frame (doppler
>effect), then surely the mass is also dependant upon reference frame.

   Yeah, I probably worded that badly.  If you see two photons of the same frequency (or for that matter different frequencies) that in itself tells you nothing about the reference frame in which they were created.  To put it differently if one of the pho
tons is emitted by a source moving rapidly away from you, and the other by a source moving toward you, the mass is only dependent on the frequency you see, and can be reduced by further red shift.

   Now get into the weird regime where space is expanding and the original light source is currently moving away from you at faster than light speed.  (Of course, our universe is one such weird place. ;-)  No light from the source can reach you now, but l
ight from millions of years ago can and is reaching you.  You can look in two different directions and see objects (call them quasars A and B) which are moving faster than light speed with respect to each other and will never be able to see each other.  I
n SR, the light from one would eventually reach the other.  But in our uinverse it can't and won't.  What is the mass of a photon emitted from A as calculated at B?

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 24 13:10:46 1999
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From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ca-ois.com>
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> Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> > Where do the decreased number of oscillations disappear to as observed
> > from the earth, and where do the increased number of oscillations come
> > from as observed from Alpha C?

John Logajan wrote:

> It all reconciles consistently if you accept that everything removed
> from you by distance X is also recessed in time by some constant
> factor multiplied by distance X.

What esperimental basis is there to accept such an idea (that everything
removed from an observer is ACTUALLY recessed in time)?

If the same criteria were applied to sound waves in air , an airplane
would be recessed in time by the mach factor * the distance X. No one
accepts that idea, do they?

I think the idea of a universal time frame is more consistent with the
Doppler Effect, which tends to distort what different observers see as
opposed to what they really are. 

The spaceship's instruments (the ones which monitor the on board
transmitter) are the only ones which are correct if one accepts a
universal time frame and if the Doppler effect is acting to distort the
observations of the observers on Alpha C. and earth.

In fact, the reality of the Doppler Effect tends to prove that there is
a medium for light waves that is entirely analogous to air as the medium
for sound waves. The Michelson - Morely experiment only showed that this
medium is entrained by gravity, not that the medium did not exist,
becuase if it didn't exist there could be no Doppler effect as such. The
Doppler Effect in sound waves is created by the fact that air can only
be compressed in front of a moving object by so much before it must give
way to the  object instead of accomodating other air molecules in front
of the object.
 
By the analogous process then the luminiferous medium can only
accomodate sub light velocities for particles (or spaceships) before it
has to give way in the same manner as air molecules have to give way to
the SR-71 on afterburners. 

I dislike the idea that Einstein imposed on society in general that we
can never develop a spaceship or communications method that will allow
us or our interstellar messages to go faster than light. It makes one
want to give up before one starts and is a most dismal and disheartening
assertion indeed.

If you would like to try to throw off this dismal philosophy, see the
Website at 

 http://www.ldolphin.org/vanFlandern/

and it will give you some good reasons to do so. The site contains a
picture of a REAL scientist with a white lab coat and everything for
your visual stimulation.

Einstein was NOT a scientist in the sense that Tesla was. All his
multiplicity of chalkboard chicken scratches ever did was to dishearten
the masses as to the future of rocket science.

Jim Ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 24 14:07:32 1999
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Subject: Re: "Recessed in Time"
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Jim -

> The site contains a
> picture of a REAL scientist with a white lab coat and everything for
> your visual stimulation.

Aw, that was just a white shirt.

- Understimulated,
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 24 14:22:08 1999
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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
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Subject: Re: "Recessed in Time"
In-Reply-To: <37C2D76E.B57 ca-ois.com> from Jim Ostrowski at "Aug 24, 99 10:33:34 am"
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Jim Ostrowski wrote:
> > It all reconciles consistently if you accept that everything removed
> > from you by distance X is also recessed in time by some constant
> > factor multiplied by distance X.
> 
> What esperimental basis is there to accept such an idea (that everything
> removed from an observer is ACTUALLY recessed in time)?

The difference between "actual" and "apparent" is philosophical.

If the "apperance" of something can't be gotten around by any means
we can think of, then the difference between "apparent" and
"actuality" is slim indeed.

> If the same criteria were applied to sound waves in air , an airplane
> would be recessed in time by the mach factor * the distance X. No one
> accepts that idea, do they?


If sound were the only means of communication, all attempts to measure
time between remote sites would indeed yield such magnitude of time
recession with distance.  We happen to usually have faster means of
information transport (light, radio wave, etc) between remote sites,
so the time recession magnitudes we can measure to the best of our
ability are much less than with sound waves.

If gravity waves really do travel much faster than light, and if we
can find a means to send information over those waves, even a single bit,
then all ideas of time recession with distance will again shrink.  We will
have gone to the next level of "appearence."


I haven't really envoked Einstein or Doppler.  It is just a consequence
of any finite speed communication that our ideas of time must diverge
as we change distance from some external point of interest.  The fastest
means of communication available sets the limit beyond which we have
no means to distinquish the "apparent" from the "actual."


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 24 16:00:26 1999
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Subject: RE: Earthquakes and Solar Activity?
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At 05:23 PM 8/20/1999 -0400, Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 wrote:
>Hey, is this just a coincidence or what?

   No.

>Didn't the recent eclipse end over by Turkey?

   That part is a coincidence.
 
>>On another list someone has noticed solar flare activity (from
>>SOHO) and magnetometer fluctuations (from HAARP) concurrent with
>>both the Turkey and Costa Rican earthquakes.
>
>>Could solar activity cause an earthquake?

   Definitely.

   A lot about several types of earthquakes is known:  Volcanic earthquakes which occur mostly as the lava flows upward are frequent and usually small.  Tectonic earthquakes occur where two tectonic plates are sliding past each other.  These account for m
ost of the major damage.  It is easy to determine where two plates are sliding past each other, and where they are locked.  It is not easy to figure out when the strain is going to exceed the breaking point.  However, several types of events which cause e
xtra stress, or help unlock the fault can be the final trigger.  (Foreshocks are when a small locked section slips and puts extra pressure on an adjacent locked region.  Aftershocks are when a large slip triggers several smaller slips.  Unfortunately, it 
is impossible to tell whether you are looking at a foreshock or the main event until later.)  Some of the things which can trigger tectonic earthquakes are interactions with the earth's magnetic field--which is often due to solar activity, tidal stresses-
-which are higher at new and full moons--and underground water.  So more quakes occur near the full or new moon, and in spring and fall when there is more ground water.

   The third major type of earthquake is a deep earthquake.  When one plate slides under another, it is called a subduction zone.  Far from the subduction zone, the plate getting pushed under breaks off in pieces, sometimes quite large.  These are usually
 centered several hundred kilometers under the surface, and therefore are felt widely, but tend not to do much damage on the surface.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 24 16:26:57 1999
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Subject: Re: Steven Jones and Cold Fusion
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At 07:34 PM 8/20/1999 -0400, Mike Carrell wrote:

>The below should be no surprise, and it means little. If memory serves,
>Jones was working on muon catalyzed fusion at the same time F&P were doing
>their work. Jones, I recall called it "cold fusion" in a press release or
>article.

   Muon catalyzed fusion is also called warm fusion to avoid con-fusion.

>          The F&P announcement was ill-timed because of political pressures
>resulting from Jones' work. There has been no scientific controversy about
>Jones' wok, which is mainstream and a feeble effect.

   Uh, what makes it feeble?  Jones has achieved "scientific" breakeven, and with a better source of muons, could achieve "engineering" breakeven.  It will probably require another breakthrough to reach commercial breakeven--a powerplant that can pay for 
itself.  But he is a lot closer than the hot fusion people.

 

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 24 19:43:33 1999
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Robert wrote:

You can look in two different directions and see objects
(call them quasars A and B) which are moving faster than
light speed with respect to each other and will never be
able to see each other.  In SR, the light from one would
eventually reach the other.  But in our universe it can't
and won't.  What is the mass of a photon emitted from A as
calculated at B?

Hi Robert,

You should take a look at Halton Arp's "Seeing Red".
He presents overwhelming evidence that quasars are not
moving anywhere near the speed of light.

Your remark about the "mass of a photon" raises some
interesting questions.  Arp says that photons from quasars
have lower energy (thus red shifted) than photons from
terrestrial electron jumps because quasar electrons have
less mass than terrestrial electrons.  Randall Mills claims
that the hydrino electron moves in a smaller orbit than the 
hydrogen electron.  I wonder if they are talking about the
same thing.

Could Scott Little collect spectral data from his BLP apparatus?

Jack Smith


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 24 20:33:18 1999
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Subject: Re: Steven Jones and Cold Fusion
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At 07:29 PM 8/24/99 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote:
>At 07:34 PM 8/20/1999 -0400, Mike Carrell wrote:
>
>>The below should be no surprise, and it means little. If memory serves,
>>Jones was working on muon catalyzed fusion at the same time F&P were doing
>>their work. Jones, I recall called it "cold fusion" in a press release or
>>article.
>
>   Muon catalyzed fusion is also called warm fusion to avoid con-fusion.


  Actually it is called cold fusion including by Steve Jones.  The only
confusion has been in the skeptics of cold fusion and their reliance upon
bad theory, bad experiments, and impatience.

   ======================================================
 
>>          The F&P announcement was ill-timed because of political pressures
>>resulting from Jones' work. There has been no scientific controversy about
>>Jones' wok, which is mainstream and a feeble effect.
>
>   Uh, what makes it feeble?  Jones has achieved "scientific" breakeven,
and with a better source of muons, could achieve "engineering" breakeven.
It will probably require another breakthrough to reach commercial
breakeven--a powerplant that can pay for itself.  But he is a lot closer
than the hot fusion people.

  Given that cold fusion had to take a closer look at calibration,
etc., and rolled back some of the initial claims, muon and hot
fusion should probably be examined more closely.


   Mitchell Swartz



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 24 21:23:43 1999
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From: rvanspaa bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Doppler effect & Relativity questions]
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 04:11:33 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 20:39:02 -0700 (PDT), Michael Schaffer wrote:
[snip]
>From the receiving team's point of view, the cycles were launched while the
>ship receded, yet propagated toward them with speed c. The end of the cycle
>was launched from a slightly more distant point than the beginning of the
>cycle, so its wavelength is longer than the wavelength measured by the
>spaceship crew. The same is true of each succeeding cycle. The end of the
>wavetrain travels farther to get to the receivers than its beginning. Same
>number of cycles in a longer time (at the receiving end, relative to the
>spaceship team) means makes the frequency measured by the receivers lower.
[snip]
Or in slightly different words, the last transmission from the ship
won't reach earth till 4.x years after the ship has landed on Alpha C.,
So there are four "extra" years of transmission time in which to
transmit the extra cycles at the "lower" frequency (as seen from earth).
>From the point of Alpha C. the ship didn't start transmitting till 4.x
years after it actually left earth, so they get all of the cycles in 4.x
years less than the actual travel time, at a higher frequency (from
their point of view).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Doppler effect & Relativity questions]
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Remi Cornwall wrote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Michael Schaffer [SMTP:schaffermj yahoo.com]
> 
>Someone highlighted this question in general in another post. In the
>direction toward an observer whom the source is approaching, the energy for
>the blue shift comes from the radiation pressure times the speed of advance
>(force times distance, which is power, or energy per time). Red shift is
>the opposite, since the radiation pressure appears to do work on the
receding
>source.
>
>>  Okay, you're in an inertial frame and your rate of energy production
>>(for your red shift case) is dependent on a non-local interaction of
>>someone measuring in a distant inertial frame. Do I read this correctly?

No. What you see depends on where yor are.

The "spaceship" source launches at one frequency, measured by its onboard
crew. Someone seeing the ship recede receives the wave and measures a lower
frequency. This is true, even without relativistic speeds. [It's plain old
Doppler shift, the kind the trafic police use (in a slightly different
configuration) to measure the speed of passing cars.] Back to the spaceship
situation, let us consider a case wherein the number of launched cycles is
less than the propagation time to the receiver. This is just to make things
simple to discuss. The number of cycles launched (counted by the crew) is the
same as the number received (counted by the receiving team). Counts of
discrete objects is not changed by reference frame, in both Gallilean and
Einsteinian relativities. 

>From the receiving team's point of view, the cycles were launched while the
ship receded, yet propagated toward them with speed c. The end of the cycle
was launched from a slightly more distant point than the beginning of the
cycle, so its wavelength is longer than the wavelength measured by the
spaceship crew. The same is true of each succeeding cycle. The end of the
wavetrain travels farther to get to the receivers than its beginning. Same
number of cycles in a longer time (at the receiving end, relative to the
spaceship team) means makes the frequency measured by the receivers lower.
===
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 24 21:46:27 1999
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Subject: Re: Phase shift
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> By this method you could power a number of coils in a row with a traveling
> magnetic pulse wave? Right?

Yes.
===
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 24 22:12:30 1999
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Doppler effect & Relativity questions]
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Jim Ostrowski wrote:
> Michael Schaffer wrote:
>
>>>Who's equipment is performing the CORRECT measurement?
>>>
>>>a. The earth's
>>>b. The ship's
>>>c. The Centaurians
>>
>>They all are preforming correct measurements.
>
>I guess this is just where "common sense" has to give way to some kind
>of abtract reasoning based on ....what? 
>
>How can three different "solutions" result from the operation of one
>constant (c) on two variables (-V for red shift +V for blue shift)? 

Please read the reply to Remi that I just wrote. Even without the high
spaceship speed in your (Jim's) example, you get Doppler effect, though the
time dilation would be negligible. It is important to understand Doppler
effect first, since it is simpler.

>The earth based tracking station will count a reduced number of
>oscillations of the ships transmitter over the entire period of the
>voyage due to the receding nature of their source * the Doppler effect,
>Right? Therefore it can reasonably be stated that from earth's point of
>view, time is slowing down for the ships occupants. 
>
>However from the Centaurian's point of view, sharing the SAME inertial
>reference frame as the earth due to the fact that they are not moving
>with respect to it, they count an 
>increased number of oscillations of the ships transmitter over the
>course of the voyage due to the advancing nature of their source * the
>Doppler effect, correct?

The number of cycles in a given pulse will be the same for all observers,
because the number of countable objects, like apples and cycles and
particles, do not get changed by either Gallilean or Einsteinian relativity.
However, receivers on Earth see the launch point receding. The end of the
pulsetrain has to travel farther to reach them than the beginning. Therefore,
the pulse train to them is longer in distance AND TIME as it propagates
toward them. The period and wavelength are longer, and the frequency is lower
than the space crew measure from their point of view. Note that I have
assumed, with Einstein and any experiments that have been done so far, that
EM waves propagate with the same c in each person's own point of view.
Similarly, the Centaurians see a pulsetrain whose trailing edge is launched
closer to them than its leading edge, so the pulse with the same number of
cycles is compressed into a shorter length. Therefore, they measure shorger
wavelength and period and higher frequency. This Doppler effect happens even
when the spaceship is moving at nonrelativistic speeds. The Doppler effect
from a vehicle moving at 30 m/s (108 km/h) is one cycle in 10^7, or 100 Hz
per Ghz. It's a measurable difference with stable oscillators.

>Yet the Doppler effect dictated that the observed number of full cycle
>oscillations will increase for the centaurians, and decrease for the
>earth's OVER THE SAME TIME PERIOD.
>
>Where do the decreased number of oscillations disappear to as observed
>from the earth, and where do the increased number of oscillations come
>from as observed from Alpha C?

The TOTAL number of cycles is the same, but the TIME intervals over which
they are received are different for earth and Alpha C receivers. 

>>
>>>Is time dilating for the ships occupants?
>>>
>>>1. yes
>>>2. no
>>
>>Time is passing more slowly for the ship's occupants than for Earthlings
>>and Centaurians.
>
>If time is passing more slowly for the ship's occupants, how can it be
>presumed that they would observe a doppler redshifted (slower than
>normal) event coming from the receding position, say an oscillation of
>an identical transmitter on Earth? That kind of event would take an
>increased amount of time from the astronauts point of view, right?

The astronauts see redshifted signals from earth and blueshifted signals from
Alpha C.

>So as the astronauts see earth, earth events happen more slowly. Ship
>events therefore happen more quickly. This means to the astronauats,
>time is speeding up, right?
>
>Yet the same kind of event (an oscillation) taking place on Centauri
>will take a decreased amount of time.  
>
>So as the astronauts see Alpha C, events happen more quickly. Therefore
>ship events happen more slowly. This means for the astronauts, time is
>slowing down, right? 
>
>How can time both speed up and slow down at the same position within the
>ship, just because you happen to be looking in one direction or another?
>Wouldn't all this amount to a zero sum situation?
>
>In what sense then is time only "slowing down" for the astronauts?

This is called the "twin paradox," from a similar situation in which one twin
goes on the spaceship and the other stays home on earth. Who gets older
faster? No one can know what time interval anyone else experienced until some
side-by side test can be made. In the spaceship case, the spaceship has to
get back to earth. This means that the ship has to accelerate once to move
away from the earth and then at least once again to change direction and
return to earth. The spaceship did not stay in an inertial frame. It moved
noninertially. This is the situation in which one can distinguish who will
age faster---the one who moved inertially.

Time and length are different for everybody. They cannot be added and
subtracted simply. This seems to be the way the universe works. Einstein was
the first to offer an explanation. Lorentz derived the same space and time
transformations as Einstein, before Einstein and before Michelson and
Morley's experiments, mathematically, from the structure of the Maxwell
equations for electromagnetism. However, Lorentz did not have a more general
explanation like Einstin's. Perhaps someone will give a better explanation
some day. Our intuition is a poor guide, because it was developed over eons
of evolution under conditions where all the interesting effects were either
too slow or too small (quantum) to experience!
===
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 24 22:21:19 1999
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Subject: Re: Eclipse
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References: <3.0.5.32.19990819121434.00c19330 spectre.mitre.org>
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At 10:44 PM 8/24/99 +0000, Taylor J. Smith wrote:

>Could Scott Little collect spectral data from his BLP apparatus?

Yes (with modifications to provide a window into the cell, etc.).


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 24 23:23:15 1999
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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199908250622.BAA23998 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Doppler effect & Relativity questions]
To: vortex-l eskimo.com (vortex-l)
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Michael J. Schaffer wrote:
> This is called the "twin paradox," from a similar situation in which one twin
> goes on the spaceship and the other stays home on earth. Who gets older
> faster? No one can know what time interval anyone else experienced until some
> side-by side test can be made. In the spaceship case, the spaceship has to
> get back to earth. This means that the ship has to accelerate once to move
> away from the earth and then at least once again to change direction and
> return to earth. The spaceship did not stay in an inertial frame. It moved
> noninertially. This is the situation in which one can distinguish who will
> age faster---the one who moved inertially.


Doesn't seem like there is a "twin paradox."

This is rather easy to show.  The twin's rocket is equipped with oscillator
that sends a continuous wave RF signal and also runs two digital clocks,
one on the ship and one back home on earth.

As the rocket twin accelerates away approaching the speed of light the
frequency of the beacon received on earth approaches near zero and the
clock on earth it drives slows to nearly a stop.

The rocket twin then slows to a stop and starts coming back home at
nearly the speed of light.  The frequency passes through normal (the
earth resting value) as the ship stops and then continues to increase
to extremely high values as the ship closes on earth.  Therefore
the earth based receiver clock is running very fast.

The rocket twin slows down again just in time to stop at earth and
visit his earth based twin to compare clocks.  The earth based
receiver clock and the rocket clock will both read the same time
because they were driven from the same oscillator and no cycles
have been lost, merely a period of slow and fast running for the
earth based clock -- the slow and fast parts canceling out in
the travel circle.

Since half the ride had the earth clock running slower than normal,
and half the ride had the earth clock running faster than normal,
it is clear that there is *no* asymmetry -- the twin does not
return home "younger", i.e. "cycles short."  He has aged the
same as his earth based brother.

If he were to come back younger, there must be some asymmetry,
some loss of cycles, some discontinuity.  Such a thing is not
obvious in the illustration above.  The "twin paradox" seems
to be a myth.  I sure hope Einstein didn't really believe in
it.


--
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:52:33 -0700
From: "Vera M. Lind" <veralind issc-taste.org>
Subject: Charles Tart's TASTE Project

August 24, 1999
Dear ,

I am a graduate student at the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology,
assisting Professor Charles T. Tart on his new consciousness research
website project, The Archives of Scientists’ Transcendent Experiences
(TASTE).  TASTE is intended as a service for people in general, as well
as a research project to advance our knowledge.

Because you have had email correspondence with Professor Tart in the
past, I'm assuming it's likely that you will find the TASTE project of
personal interest, so I'm sending you this brief notice about it.

We are also running this project with very little financial resources,
and so can't afford to buy advertising; thus, we're asking a favor of
you.  Would you email this notice on to everyone you know who you think
might be interested, lay-people or scientists?

Thank you!

Vera M. Lind
Institute of Transpersonal Psychology
Palo Alto, California
veralind issc-taste.org

  THE ARCHIVES OF SCIENTISTS' TRANSCENDENT EXPERIENCES
                         (TASTE)

       http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/tart/taste/

Over the years many scientists, once they've realized I'm a safe person to
talk to, have told me about unusual and transcendent experiences they've
had.  Too often I'm the first and only person they've ever spoken to about
their experiences, for fear of ridicule from their colleagues and adverse,
prejudicial effects on their career.  Such fears have, unfortunately, too
much of a basis in fact.  It's not that there are a lot of scientists with
nasty intentions deliberately trying to suppress their colleagues, it's
just the social conditioning of our times. I want to change that, and I
ask your help in doing so. 

Scientists today often occupy a social role like that of "high priests,"
telling laypeople and each other what is and isn't "real,"  and
consequently what is and isn't valuable and sane.  Unfortunately, the
dominant materialistic and reductionistic psychosocial climate of
contemporary science (what sociologists long ago named scientism, an
attitude different from the essential process of cience), rejects and
suppresses a priori both having and sharing transcendent, transpersonal
and altered states (or "spiritual" and "psychic," to use common words, in
spite of their too vague connotations) experiences. 

>From my perspective as a psychologist, though, this prejudicial
suppression and rejection psychologically harms and distorts both
scientists' and laypersons' transcendent (and other) potentials, and also
inhibits the development of a genuine scientific understanding of the full
spectrum of consciousness.  Denial of any aspects of our nature, whatever
their ultimate ontological status, is never psychologically or socially
healthy. 

The Archives of Scientists' Transcendent Experiences (TASTE), that I have
just opened, is intended to help change this restricted and pathological
climate through the operation of a World Wide Web site in a journal form
which will allow scientists from all fields - from anthropology through
botany through mathematics through physics through psychology through
zoology, to name just a few - to share their personal transcendent
experiences in a safe, anonymous, but quality controlled space that almost
all scientists and the general public have ready access to. 

Specifically TASTE will, to various degrees:

     - allow individual psychological growth in the contributing
scientists by providing a safe means of expression of vital experiences;

     - lead toward a more receptive climate to the full range of our
humanity in the scientific professions which, in turn, would benefit our
world culture at large;

     - provide research data on transcendent experiences in a highly
articulate and conscientious population, scientists;

     - facilitate the development of a full spectrum science of
consciousness by providing both data and support for the study of
transcendent experiences.

     - help bridge the unfortunate gaps between science and the rest of
culture by illustrating the humanity of scientists.

Please take a look at the TASTE site, whose URL is
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/tart/taste (if the Psychology server is off
line you can use www.issc-taste.org). If you find it valuable, please pass
this information on to friends and colleagues.  I have no budget for
advertising, so must depend on word of mouth to get this information
around. 

If you have a web site of your own that it would be suitable to link
from to TASTE, thank you!  Feel free to copy one of the TASTE
experiences as an example on your web site, if you like.

In terms of more conventional, slower publicity, if you can recommend
any journals I should send notices to, please let me know.  If you are
the editor of any publication, you have my permission (and thanks!) to
print this notice in your publication.

Thank you!

Charles T. Tart, Ph.D., Editor
Professor Emeritus, Psychology,
  University of California at Davis
Professor, Core Faculty, Institute of Transpersonal
  Psychology, Palo Alto, CA




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 25 08:44:31 1999
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For a String Particle (a length-only fold in space, in simple harmonic
motion)
 the Length, Capacitance (C) and Potential (V) are all that is required to
define
a particle and it's energy/mass, charge (+/- q) and spin (mvr).

eo = capacitance/permittivity of space 8.84E-12 coulomb/(newton-m^2)
or farad/meter a Length-Only property.

uo =  inductance/permeability of space 1.257E-6 newtons/amp^2
or henry/meter a Length-Only property due to the variation of C.

1, Wavelength (lambda) = 2(pi)R = 2(pi)k*q^2/E   k = 1/(4(pi)eo)

2,  +/- q = C*V a constant 1.602E-19 coulombs

3, C = Lambda*eo

4, L = Lambda*uo

5, E = .5CV^2  + .5LI^2

What more do you need?    :-)

Regards,     Frederick





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Frederick
What are you doing this for?
Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Frederick Sparber[SMTP:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Wednesday, August 25, 1999 9:34 AM
> To: 	jonesb9 cwnet.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Cc: 	Cwillis sandia.gov
> Subject: 	Re: String Particle Acrobatics
> 
> For a String Particle (a length-only fold in space, in simple harmonic
> motion)
>  the Length, Capacitance (C) and Potential (V) are all that is required to
> define
> a particle and it's energy/mass, charge (+/- q) and spin (mvr).
> 
> eo = capacitance/permittivity of space 8.84E-12 coulomb/(newton-m^2)
> or farad/meter a Length-Only property.
> 
> uo =  inductance/permeability of space 1.257E-6 newtons/amp^2
> or henry/meter a Length-Only property due to the variation of C.
> 
> 1, Wavelength (lambda) = 2(pi)R = 2(pi)k*q^2/E   k = 1/(4(pi)eo)
> 
> 2,  +/- q = C*V a constant 1.602E-19 coulombs
> 
> 3, C = Lambda*eo
> 
> 4, L = Lambda*uo
> 
> 5, E = .5CV^2  + .5LI^2
> 
> What more do you need?    :-)
> 
> Regards,     Frederick
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 25 14:15:20 1999
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On Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:58:23   John Schnurer wrote:
>  What are you talkimg about?

Sorry, but I was unable to check my email for the last two weeks.

See the following links for more information:
  http://www.sciam.com/1999/0799issue/0799techbus3.html
  http://www.fractenna.com/faswp.html

Specifically I am interested in arrays similar to the one shown at the second link.  The pickings online seem to be lean.

-SJ  


HotBot - Search smarter.
http://www.hotbot.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 25 17:04:01 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Jed,

You wrote, "What did happen with RIFEX? Nothing as far as I know. There have 
been no retractions by CETI, and no verifications by anyone else. It is 
inconclusive."

I agree, and that's one of the reasons why I suspect that transmutation work 
is a trap.  A man could waste an entire career chasing tantalizing but 
inconclusive glimmers like that.

You went on, "Instead of looking at CETI, look what happened with Bockris and 
Mizuno.  Mizuno's samples were tested by three independent industrial labs 
using four different types of mass spectrometer, and all three confirmed the 
unnatural isotopes. Bockris and Hodko's results are rock solid. No skeptic
has found an error in that work -- none has even tried as far as I know.
Miley et al. continue to find solid evidence of fission and heavy fusion 
products."

I can't judge work on isotope ratios.  Few people can.  That's part of the 
problem.  I wouldn't know where to begin refuting skeptical claims that 
anomalous isotope ratios are due to instrumental artifacts or to shifting 
around of material by the intense electrochemical environment.  

I also can't think of a good answer, or even a plausible answer, to the 
skeptical question, Why are there transmutations all over the periodic table, 
but no radioactive ones?

As for Miley's work, it seems to me that Miley wanted the NERI grant in order 
to move from tantalizing hints to solid proof.  And the burden of proof is 
awfully high here, because nuclear chemistry is a lot more complicated than 
calorimetry.  

I think that the skeptics don't bother with Bockris' work on transmutations 
beyond helium because transmutation work has completely destroyed his 
credibility outside the cold fusion community, which is another reason why I 
consider transmutations to be a trap.  Bockris' tritium work did have to be 
dealt with, in part because it wasn't transmutation strictly speaking (didn't 
involve the creation of one element from another).  Bockris' tritium work was 
dealt with unfairly, but the skeptics did feel that they had to deal with it.

Life is too easy for skeptical critics of transmutation work.  It gives them 
many targets, but the arguments pro and con are so esoteric that only a small 
community can follow them.  It's a lot easier, at least for me, to spot the 
farfetches in skeptical criticism of excess heat experiments.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 25 20:01:24 1999
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Doppler effect & Relativity questions]
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John Logajan wrote:

[snip Schaffer's stuff]

> Doesn't seem like there is a "twin paradox."
> 
> This is rather easy to show.  The twin's rocket is equipped with oscillator
> that sends a continuous wave RF signal and also runs two digital clocks,
> one on the ship and one back home on earth.
> 
> As the rocket twin accelerates away approaching the speed of light the
> frequency of the beacon received on earth approaches near zero and the
> clock on earth it drives slows to nearly a stop.
> 
> The rocket twin then slows to a stop and starts coming back home at
> nearly the speed of light.  The frequency passes through normal (the
> earth resting value) as the ship stops and then continues to increase
> to extremely high values as the ship closes on earth.  Therefore
> the earth based receiver clock is running very fast.
> 
> The rocket twin slows down again just in time to stop at earth and
> visit his earth based twin to compare clocks.  The earth based
> receiver clock and the rocket clock will both read the same time
> because they were driven from the same oscillator and no cycles
> have been lost, merely a period of slow and fast running for the
> earth based clock -- the slow and fast parts canceling out in
> the travel circle.
> 
> Since half the ride had the earth clock running slower than normal,
> and half the ride had the earth clock running faster than normal,
> it is clear that there is *no* asymmetry -- the twin does not
> return home "younger", i.e. "cycles short."  He has aged the
> same as his earth based brother.
> 
> If he were to come back younger, there must be some asymmetry,
> some loss of cycles, some discontinuity.  Such a thing is not
> obvious in the illustration above.  The "twin paradox" seems
> to be a myth.  I sure hope Einstein didn't really believe in
> it.

You have just described the DOPPLER EFFECT part of the problem. 
Both parties (the traveler and the earthbound) have to count the 
same number of cycles---cycles are countable objects and are not 
affected by relativity. Note that there is only ONE CLOCK in 
your description. The earth "clock" is not a clock; it is a counter 
driven by the spaceship's clock. The earth "clock" does not keep 
its own time. 

If there were an independent clock (oscillator) on earth, it 
would show a different trip time interval (number of oscillations) 
than the ship's clock. This is due to relativistic time dilation, 
not Doppler shift. It is an SR effect. It does not appear in 
Galillean relativity. It is a real effect, having ben measured 
by comparing clocks on satellites against ground clocks as the 
satellite goes by. The two clocks are the "twins" in this case. 
The paradox is that it happens, even though you think it shouldn't.
 
===
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 25 21:19:32 1999
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Tom Stolper writes:

	I can't judge work on isotope ratios.

Neither can I.


	Few people can.

That is not what I have heard. People who do this for a living say it is
quite simple to tell the difference between isotopes and atomic isomers. A
senior undergrad is doing it in Mizuno's lab with a Uvlac quadrapole mass
spec unit. He says it is not particularly difficult. The experts who looked
at Ohmori's samples expressed no doubts about their results. You would have
to ask an expert yourself to learn more. If you know an expert who would
like to see the proof, I can probably arrange for a sample to be delivered.
Ohmori has dozens. He has offered them to others, but of course the
skeptics refuse to look.


	That's part of the  problem.  I wouldn't know where to begin
	refuting skeptical claims that  anomalous isotope ratios are due
	to instrumental artifacts . . .

The skeptics who have commented do not know what they are talking about,
any more than I do. Ask an expert in spectroscopy, or reserve judgement.


	. . . or to shifting  around of material by the intense
	electrochemical environment.  

That has be out of the question! Bockris pointed out that it takes 20,000
passes with the best electrochemical and other chemical techniques to
separate isotopes to this extent.


	I also can't think of a good answer, or even a plausible answer,
	to the  skeptical question, Why are there transmutations all
	over the periodic table,  but no radioactive ones?

That is a theoretical question. You never have to answer theoretical
questions before accepting or rejecting data. Either the isotopes are
there, or they are not. Why and how they got there is not an issue. The
only theory that enters into this discussion is the theory of operation of
the mass spec machine. If the machine is working properly, the metal was
transmutated -- end of story. The shifts and the mass of the shifted
material are large, not marginal.


	As for Miley's work, it seems to me that Miley wanted the NERI
	grant in order  to move from tantalizing hints to solid proof.

I have been in frequent contact with him, and I am sure he would disagree.
He feels that he already has solid proof. I am sure the peer-reviewers
agreed. You could not get a NERI grant for something this controversial on
the strength of "tantalizing hints."


	And the burden of proof is  awfully high here, because nuclear
	chemistry is a lot more complicated than  calorimetry.  

The burden of proof is not one millimeter higher than it would be if this
was a first year grad student doing a standard analysis of materials for a
routine physics experiment. There is only two  standards and they apply
equally to all experiments, radical or mundane. They are replication, and
the S/N ratio, which with these machines translates into the separation of
isotopes along the spectrum. Low res instruments run them together so that
small amounts of close isotopes and isomers appear as "shoulders." High res
instruments that detect large amounts show them clearly separated. If the
instrument is operated correctly and the results are independently
confirmed by others -- Bingo, case closed. The fact that the results are
surprising to us should not be a consideration.


	I think that the skeptics don't bother with Bockris' work on
	transmutations  beyond helium because transmutation work has
	completely destroyed his  credibility outside the cold fusion
	community . . .

His problems with "credibility" have nothing to do with the quality of his
scientific work or his judgement. Foolish, ignorant, jealous people
attacked him. Believe them, and you might as well turn around and evaluate
evolutionary theory based on what ignorant yahoos at the Kansas Board of
Education say. Those people tore out two years of careful curriculum
planning,  and in a couple of hours they replaced it with superstitious
glop! It's a good thing Kansas medical schools don't let them rewrite the
textbooks, or doctors would be forced to learn exorcism instead of surgery.


	Life is too easy for skeptical critics of transmutation work.

Right. To be critic, all you have to is pretend that mass spec machines
don't work and even if they do, the Japanese companies which manufacture
them can't operate them. Then, when someone like Ohmori or Mizuno offers to
send you a sample, you refuse. That is the cardinal rule of the skeptic.
NEVER read the papers. NEVER look at the data. Above all, NEVER look at
actual physical evidence, even if it is offered to you on a silver platter,
or on a golden foil in this case.

Yes, life is easy once you master double-think and the art of mindlessly
rejecting facts. The bennies are great! You can move to Kansas and get a
cushy job on the B.o.E. teaching children that the sun orbits the earth and
maggots spontaneously generate in rotting meat.


	It gives them  many targets, but the arguments pro and con are
	so esoteric that only a small community can follow them.

According to people who use mass spec machines in their daily work, these
issues are not a bit esoteric. People are convicted of crimes based on
analyses by these machines. Giant machines are tested and set in motion
based on them. But the skeptics say mass spec machines don't work and it's
all so esoteric, and I guess maybe we should take their word for it even
though they have been dead wrong about every other assertion they have made
for ten years, uh huh. Yes, a stopped clock is right twice a day and since
I cannot judge I suppose Dick Blue MIGHT be right this time, but I think
I'll trust the judgement of technical experts at Hitachi, Mitsubishi and
the University of Illinois instead. Gosh, that was a tough call!

I do not care how many "targets" the skeptics think they have found. Facts
are facts. If the cathode metal is transmutated that is vitally important
information and I want to know about it. I will not suppress or ignore
information because I am afraid of what the skeptics think!

- Jed

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Mike Schaffer wrote:

>Note that there is only ONE CLOCK in 
>your description. The earth "clock" is not a clock; it is a counter 
>driven by the spaceship's clock.

I was going to try to say that, but I could not have said it so elegantly.


>It is a real effect, having ben measured 
>by comparing clocks on satellites against ground clocks as the 
>satellite goes by.

And by the longevity of short-lived, accelerated particles. They go much
faster than satellites so the effect is more pronounced.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 25 22:46:32 1999
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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
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Subject: Re: [Fwd: Doppler effect & Relativity questions]
To: vortex-l eskimo.com (vortex-l)
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Michael J. Schaffer wrote:

> Note that there is only ONE CLOCK in 
> your description. The earth "clock" is not a clock; it is a counter 
> driven by the spaceship's clock. The earth "clock" does not keep 
> its own time.
 
That's what I said.  The master oscillator was on the rocket.  The
two twins have a counter display ("clock") that counts RF cycles 
transmitted from the rocket oscillator.
 
But let's put a duplicate system up with the osillator on earth, or
better yet, here is even a simpler dual system:
 
Both twins have an RF transmitter tuned to exactly the same
frequency, say 1GHz.  They also each have a receiver with a non-linear
detector (mixer) which will produce a heterodyne when the two
trasmitter frequencies diverge due to doppler/relativity.  The only
way for a "twin paradox" to evidence itself is if the heterodyne
beats sum differently at each counter over the entire trip circuit.
 
Since non-accelerated motion is relative, the mere fact that one object
is moving near C with respect to the other does not resolve the ambiguity
of which person is the "moving twin."  So delta V of C alone between the
twins is insufficient to cause a difference in the observed heterodyne
beat rate seen by each twin.  (Jed mistakenly attributes the extra
apparently longevity of high speed particles to the twin paradox, but
that is not the case, since they would be longer lived regardless of
which object (the particle or the observer) was "actually" moving 
near C.  It is mere delta V of C that matters in that case, not the 
history of who accelerated, which is supposed to resolve the ambiguity
of the "twin paradox.")
 
Therefore it is acceleration, not delta V, which must account for this
alleged paradox, in that the acceleration causes an asymmetry of the
received remote frequency of the other's transmitter frequency, thus
giving rise to an asymmetry in the heterodyne beat count summed over
the entire trip circuit as compared to the non-accelerated unit.
 
-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

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Hank Scudder wrote:
>
> What are you doing this for, Fred?
>
Simple, Hank, since the particle energy E = .5CV^2  +  .5 LI^2 , if
you solve for the Displacement Current I = (2E/L)^1/2 when applied
to the "triad" of adjacent quarks (oscillating strings or string circles) in
a
Proton you come up with the "Strong Force".

Secondly, if you treat the wave gyration as if it is a charge,+/-q = CV,
(where the sign +/- is simply a phase relationship)moving to-and-fro,
or in a circle, at very close to c, constituting a "current loop" with
frequency f = c/lambda or i = q*f, as if they are the turns in a solenoid,
and calculate the frame-of-reference time dilation, you come up
with the gravitational force.

IOW, ANY QUARK should have a 4.8*E-10 ampere-meter magnetic
moment associated with it, but, special relativity dilates that number by a
factor of  1.35E18 to 2.0E21 or so, thus the extremely weak electrogravity
force.

Does that help any?   :-)

Regards,     Frederick

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Here's something interesting which might lead to some fascinating
engineering applications.  I added it to my website recently, so people
here might not have encountered it as yet.

   ENERGY-SUCKING ANTENNAS
   http://www.amasci.com/tesla/tesceive.html

The short version:

if your antenna is << wavelength, then use it to
transmit a cancelling wave which is phase-locked to the frequency of
interest.  This will cancel out the energy in the entire nearfield region
of your antenna.  At low frequencies this region is titanic.  But this is
impossible!  Energy cannot simply vanish!  You are correct sir.  :)  When
the "cancelling wave" has grown to maximum, the antenna is "sucking
energy" out of the entire nearfield region surrounding itself.  The huge
AC electromagnetic fields generated by these devices act as a type of
enormous "virtual EM funnel."  What's more, they are passive devices.  Any
resonant circuit of extremely high "Q"-factor is the same as an "energy
sucker," but only if we use coils/capacitors which allow the fields within
the components to extend into the surrounding space.  A large loop-antenna
built of large-diameter copper plumbing pipe would make an excellent
low-resistance coil.  Superconductor vacuum-capacitors and coils would be
all the better.  Extend a short whip antenna and connect the other
terminal to ground, and you'll see an immense voltage appear on the
antenna as the "virtual funnel" extends itself and begins to suck energy
out of the weak ambient fields.

In physics the effect is hidden within the concept regarding the
"collision crosssection area" of particles.  These areas vary as the
particle energies approach resonant absorbtion frequencies.  The size of
your "barn" can vary wildly depending on whether your music is "in tune."
:)  This isn't high-energy particle physics, either.  At resonance, a
1-angstrom atom can spread its field-nets outwards to 3000 angstroms and
punch a vast hole in the propagating light waves at 6000 angstrom
frequencies.  That's why sodium gas is so opaque to the sodium-line
spectrum!  (And perhaps why sodium bose-einstein-condensates slow light
down to a propagation-speed similar to that of "heat.")

In theory these concepts allow us to steal power from both the HAARP
antenna grid and the 60Hz power lines, erect walls around our countries
which won't let any external propaganda radio stations intrude, transmit
kilowatts from tiny desktop antennas, explain the human hearing system and
ball lightning, build portable AM radios which need no longwire
antennas...  and communicate power to planes, trains, and automobiles
through a sort of, ahem, "World System" VLF radio nearfield-energy
distribution apparatus which lets extremely feeble RF fields become the
transfer medium for power flows greater than anyone could possibly
imagine.

This stuff has always been around, but in my opinion modern physics is
almost entirely clueless about it.  It is an overlooked hole in physics
which appears to lead to a vast unexplored realm.  Step through this
doorway and discover that the dusty floor contains the aging footprints of
N. Tesla and E.W. Keely which lead off into the wilderness in opposite
directions.  I always knew that resonance was weird, but when I had an
epiphany regarding this stuff it gave me such a serious case of brain-burn
that I'm still seriously demented.  (So what else is new?) 

I looked for conventional physics papers and discovered only two so far,
both of which were written in... the 1980s!!!! And one is by my hero Dr.
C. Bohren, author of CLOUDS IN A GLASS OF BEER, a fellow physicist/seer
whose work I encountered when looking for other people who explore the old
storage cabinets of "physics," have discovered how to directly surf the
conceptual networks of science knowledge, as well those who enjoy messing
about with children's science misconceptions. If Bohren is intrigued, my
alarm bells ring wildly.  I still don't know how easy it is to engineer
any of this stuff, but if some of the later N. Tesla stories are true, the
possibilities are intriguing to say the least.

So...

Last one to power their electric car via the global thunderstorm
Schumann-cavity nonlinear eigenfrequency-resonant ionospheric
amplifications...

...is a rotten egg!!!!! 

;)


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 26 05:34:10 1999
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At 12:40 AM 8/26/99 -0500, John Logajan wrote:

>Therefore it is acceleration, not delta V, which must account for this
>alleged paradox...

>From the McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Physics:

"Clock Paradox:  The paradox produced by the use of incorrect arguments,
concepts, and premises in the relativistic twin clock problem in which two
initially synchronized perfect clocks, A and B, are first separated and
then reunited.  It is the true logical contradiction inherent in the
assertion that, when reunited, the two clocks, side by side, are slower
than each other.

Twin clock effect: The twin clock effect is the natural phenomenon that a
clock having a past history of acceleration indicates a total elaspsed time
less than that indicated by an idential clock having no history of
acceleration.  It is a physical effect, and the amount by which the
accelerated clock is found to be slow is the same regardless of the choice
of inertial frame."

They go on to lay out a detailed example of two clocks and how they compare
at different points on a round-trip journey of one of the clocks.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 26 06:38:39 1999
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I agree, interesting though, I have thought about that before too and it is
interesting, but I figured that was just how antennas work, there phase is
opposite and does cancel the local field a bit when receiving right? It's just
that they are not taking much, but I admit I'm not too clear on it.
And is it electric field induction, magnetic field induction, or pretty much
both and you can't separate them?
What happens if you get iron wire and apply an AC field? you should have a
field of radiation that has no detectable magnetic field but should induce
current in the same was that transformers work even though there is no magnetic
field in the secondary coil as it's kept in the core.

About the atoms that has been bugging me too, are you sure that a single atom
can absorb photons so large though, could it be that only many atoms can do so,
and just because you have a gas does not necessarily mean that you have only
one atom per 6000 angstroms does it?
Somehow even I don't like the above objections, but I need to get to sleep
soon, can't have such a simple thing so mysterious...

Another interesting idea though in a very different direction but springing
from that thought is about winding a coil with a small diameter and an outer
coil with a larger diameter and greater number of turns in series so that they
create opposite poles concentrically nested in one another.
magnetic flux in the center from a transformer or rotating magnet should induce
the same voltage per turn in both of the coils, because the outer one has more
turns current will flow it's way, but in the center the magnetic field is
stronger from the smaller coil (also iron could be used to keep the field from
the outer coil away).

I have verified that the flux of the smaller coil with fewer turns is dominant
in the center, and as far as I know it is conventional law that the same
voltage is induced per turn despite the radius.
It would appear that we would have a motor and generator at the same time.

I'm not sure it would work, but it's an interesting theory (want more because
I've got them? But then again who doesn't;)


John Berry

William Beaty wrote:

> Here's something interesting which might lead to some fascinating
> engineering applications.  I added it to my website recently, so people
> here might not have encountered it as yet.
>
>    ENERGY-SUCKING ANTENNAS
>    http://www.amasci.com/tesla/tesceive.html
>
> The short version:
>
> if your antenna is << wavelength, then use it to
> transmit a cancelling wave which is phase-locked to the frequency of
> interest.  This will cancel out the energy in the entire nearfield region
> of your antenna.  At low frequencies this region is titanic.  But this is
> impossible!  Energy cannot simply vanish!  You are correct sir.  :)  When
> the "cancelling wave" has grown to maximum, the antenna is "sucking
> energy" out of the entire nearfield region surrounding itself.  The huge
> AC electromagnetic fields generated by these devices act as a type of
> enormous "virtual EM funnel."  What's more, they are passive devices.  Any
> resonant circuit of extremely high "Q"-factor is the same as an "energy
> sucker," but only if we use coils/capacitors which allow the fields within
> the components to extend into the surrounding space.  A large loop-antenna
> built of large-diameter copper plumbing pipe would make an excellent
> low-resistance coil.  Superconductor vacuum-capacitors and coils would be
> all the better.  Extend a short whip antenna and connect the other
> terminal to ground, and you'll see an immense voltage appear on the
> antenna as the "virtual funnel" extends itself and begins to suck energy
> out of the weak ambient fields.
>
> In physics the effect is hidden within the concept regarding the
> "collision crosssection area" of particles.  These areas vary as the
> particle energies approach resonant absorbtion frequencies.  The size of
> your "barn" can vary wildly depending on whether your music is "in tune."
> :)  This isn't high-energy particle physics, either.  At resonance, a
> 1-angstrom atom can spread its field-nets outwards to 3000 angstroms and
> punch a vast hole in the propagating light waves at 6000 angstrom
> frequencies.  That's why sodium gas is so opaque to the sodium-line
> spectrum!  (And perhaps why sodium bose-einstein-condensates slow light
> down to a propagation-speed similar to that of "heat.")
>
> In theory these concepts allow us to steal power from both the HAARP
> antenna grid and the 60Hz power lines, erect walls around our countries
> which won't let any external propaganda radio stations intrude, transmit
> kilowatts from tiny desktop antennas, explain the human hearing system and
> ball lightning, build portable AM radios which need no longwire
> antennas...  and communicate power to planes, trains, and automobiles
> through a sort of, ahem, "World System" VLF radio nearfield-energy
> distribution apparatus which lets extremely feeble RF fields become the
> transfer medium for power flows greater than anyone could possibly
> imagine.
>
> This stuff has always been around, but in my opinion modern physics is
> almost entirely clueless about it.  It is an overlooked hole in physics
> which appears to lead to a vast unexplored realm.  Step through this
> doorway and discover that the dusty floor contains the aging footprints of
> N. Tesla and E.W. Keely which lead off into the wilderness in opposite
> directions.  I always knew that resonance was weird, but when I had an
> epiphany regarding this stuff it gave me such a serious case of brain-burn
> that I'm still seriously demented.  (So what else is new?)
>
> I looked for conventional physics papers and discovered only two so far,
> both of which were written in... the 1980s!!!! And one is by my hero Dr.
> C. Bohren, author of CLOUDS IN A GLASS OF BEER, a fellow physicist/seer
> whose work I encountered when looking for other people who explore the old
> storage cabinets of "physics," have discovered how to directly surf the
> conceptual networks of science knowledge, as well those who enjoy messing
> about with children's science misconceptions. If Bohren is intrigued, my
> alarm bells ring wildly.  I still don't know how easy it is to engineer
> any of this stuff, but if some of the later N. Tesla stories are true, the
> possibilities are intriguing to say the least.
>
> So...
>
> Last one to power their electric car via the global thunderstorm
> Schumann-cavity nonlinear eigenfrequency-resonant ionospheric
> amplifications...
>
> ...is a rotten egg!!!!!
>
> ;)
>
> ((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 26 07:11:31 1999
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Forgot to mention, I find your atom absorption theory hard to swallow, it could be
right but...
The main thing is you could make matter transparent by relatively simple means of
applying high frequency so that it was all phase locked meaning that only "lucky"
radiation would have the right phase.

Then again as I think of it more you would need to apply light frequency electric
fields to do this, then again wouldn't a light frequency electric field be light?
Ok I give in, It still sounds unlikely but blah.

But what about multiple frequencies, can a single atom absorb more that one photon
at a time?

Could strong infrared or ultraviolet light make all the atoms ignore visible
frequencies, in fact I vaguely remember about such an experiment recently when that
kind of thing was done with microwave signal I that...

I'll spare the list any more of my consciousness streaming for tonight.


John Berry


John Berry wrote:

> I agree, interesting though, I have thought about that before too and it is
> interesting, but I figured that was just how antennas work, there phase is
> opposite and does cancel the local field a bit when receiving right? It's just
> that they are not taking much, but I admit I'm not too clear on it.
> And is it electric field induction, magnetic field induction, or pretty much
> both and you can't separate them?
> What happens if you get iron wire and apply an AC field? you should have a
> field of radiation that has no detectable magnetic field but should induce
> current in the same was that transformers work even though there is no magnetic
> field in the secondary coil as it's kept in the core.
>
> About the atoms that has been bugging me too, are you sure that a single atom
> can absorb photons so large though, could it be that only many atoms can do so,
> and just because you have a gas does not necessarily mean that you have only
> one atom per 6000 angstroms does it?
> Somehow even I don't like the above objections, but I need to get to sleep
> soon, can't have such a simple thing so mysterious...
>
> Another interesting idea though in a very different direction but springing
> from that thought is about winding a coil with a small diameter and an outer
> coil with a larger diameter and greater number of turns in series so that they
> create opposite poles concentrically nested in one another.
> magnetic flux in the center from a transformer or rotating magnet should induce
> the same voltage per turn in both of the coils, because the outer one has more
> turns current will flow it's way, but in the center the magnetic field is
> stronger from the smaller coil (also iron could be used to keep the field from
> the outer coil away).
>
> I have verified that the flux of the smaller coil with fewer turns is dominant
> in the center, and as far as I know it is conventional law that the same
> voltage is induced per turn despite the radius.
> It would appear that we would have a motor and generator at the same time.
>
> I'm not sure it would work, but it's an interesting theory (want more because
> I've got them? But then again who doesn't;)
>
> John Berry
>
> William Beaty wrote:
>
> > Here's something interesting which might lead to some fascinating
> > engineering applications.  I added it to my website recently, so people
> > here might not have encountered it as yet.
> >
> >    ENERGY-SUCKING ANTENNAS
> >    http://www.amasci.com/tesla/tesceive.html
> >
> > The short version:
> >
> > if your antenna is << wavelength, then use it to
> > transmit a cancelling wave which is phase-locked to the frequency of
> > interest.  This will cancel out the energy in the entire nearfield region
> > of your antenna.  At low frequencies this region is titanic.  But this is
> > impossible!  Energy cannot simply vanish!  You are correct sir.  :)  When
> > the "cancelling wave" has grown to maximum, the antenna is "sucking
> > energy" out of the entire nearfield region surrounding itself.  The huge
> > AC electromagnetic fields generated by these devices act as a type of
> > enormous "virtual EM funnel."  What's more, they are passive devices.  Any
> > resonant circuit of extremely high "Q"-factor is the same as an "energy
> > sucker," but only if we use coils/capacitors which allow the fields within
> > the components to extend into the surrounding space.  A large loop-antenna
> > built of large-diameter copper plumbing pipe would make an excellent
> > low-resistance coil.  Superconductor vacuum-capacitors and coils would be
> > all the better.  Extend a short whip antenna and connect the other
> > terminal to ground, and you'll see an immense voltage appear on the
> > antenna as the "virtual funnel" extends itself and begins to suck energy
> > out of the weak ambient fields.
> >
> > In physics the effect is hidden within the concept regarding the
> > "collision crosssection area" of particles.  These areas vary as the
> > particle energies approach resonant absorbtion frequencies.  The size of
> > your "barn" can vary wildly depending on whether your music is "in tune."
> > :)  This isn't high-energy particle physics, either.  At resonance, a
> > 1-angstrom atom can spread its field-nets outwards to 3000 angstroms and
> > punch a vast hole in the propagating light waves at 6000 angstrom
> > frequencies.  That's why sodium gas is so opaque to the sodium-line
> > spectrum!  (And perhaps why sodium bose-einstein-condensates slow light
> > down to a propagation-speed similar to that of "heat.")
> >
> > In theory these concepts allow us to steal power from both the HAARP
> > antenna grid and the 60Hz power lines, erect walls around our countries
> > which won't let any external propaganda radio stations intrude, transmit
> > kilowatts from tiny desktop antennas, explain the human hearing system and
> > ball lightning, build portable AM radios which need no longwire
> > antennas...  and communicate power to planes, trains, and automobiles
> > through a sort of, ahem, "World System" VLF radio nearfield-energy
> > distribution apparatus which lets extremely feeble RF fields become the
> > transfer medium for power flows greater than anyone could possibly
> > imagine.
> >
> > This stuff has always been around, but in my opinion modern physics is
> > almost entirely clueless about it.  It is an overlooked hole in physics
> > which appears to lead to a vast unexplored realm.  Step through this
> > doorway and discover that the dusty floor contains the aging footprints of
> > N. Tesla and E.W. Keely which lead off into the wilderness in opposite
> > directions.  I always knew that resonance was weird, but when I had an
> > epiphany regarding this stuff it gave me such a serious case of brain-burn
> > that I'm still seriously demented.  (So what else is new?)
> >
> > I looked for conventional physics papers and discovered only two so far,
> > both of which were written in... the 1980s!!!! And one is by my hero Dr.
> > C. Bohren, author of CLOUDS IN A GLASS OF BEER, a fellow physicist/seer
> > whose work I encountered when looking for other people who explore the old
> > storage cabinets of "physics," have discovered how to directly surf the
> > conceptual networks of science knowledge, as well those who enjoy messing
> > about with children's science misconceptions. If Bohren is intrigued, my
> > alarm bells ring wildly.  I still don't know how easy it is to engineer
> > any of this stuff, but if some of the later N. Tesla stories are true, the
> > possibilities are intriguing to say the least.
> >
> > So...
> >
> > Last one to power their electric car via the global thunderstorm
> > Schumann-cavity nonlinear eigenfrequency-resonant ionospheric
> > amplifications...
> >
> > ...is a rotten egg!!!!!
> >
> > ;)
> >
> > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
> > William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> > billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
> > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> > Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 26 07:26:23 1999
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Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 22:00:33 -0700
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ca-ois.com>
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John Logajan wrote:

>
> The difference between "actual" and "apparent" is philosophical.
> 
> If the "apperance" of something can't be gotten around by any means
> we can think of, then the difference between "apparent" and
> "actuality" is slim indeed.
>

I respond:

Appearance then is actuality to someone who cannot or will not try think
of a way to get around the thing that is said to be limited by the
percieved obstacle. To those who try to imagine ways to get around the
obstacle, "appearance" does not necessarily = "actuality". 

This means we can say that the philosophy held by the first group is
that of the defeated and/or unimaginitive. The philosophy held by the
second group is that of those
who just don't give up and/or who have active and healthy imaginations.

I would like to be among those counted in the second group, wouldn't
you?

All I'm saying is that Einstein, imaginitive though he was, came to a
defeatists conclusion that +c velocity travel and communication was
impossible. Amid the hype that this was the smartest person in the world
saying this, the world buys into it and the defeatist's philosophy
prevails. 

This, to me is very sad for the world in general.
---------------------- 
Jim Ostrowski wrote:
 
> > If the same criteria were applied to sound waves in air , an airplane
> > would be recessed in time by the mach factor * the distance X. No one
> > accepts that idea, do they?

John responded-

> 
> If sound were the only means of communication, all attempts to measure
> time between remote sites would indeed yield such magnitude of time
> recession with distance.

I reply:

But this is the whole point. Let's say you had a society of blind people
who could only communicate with sound waves. I'm sure some of these
blind people would come up with a Minkowski Spacetime diagram involving
"sound cones" demonstrating how any proposed communication "FTS" (faster
than sound) would involve backwards-in-time signalling and time travel
paradoxes, therefore making any such proposal seem ridiculous.

On the other hand if one of them merely rejected the "dismal" philosophy
and opted for a universal time frame instead of the subjective one, he
could also reject paradoxical conclusions. 

Unfortunately he would probably be baniched from the "scientific"
society and wind up on the Braille version of Vortex, however that might
work.

- Jim Ostrowski


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 26 08:38:34 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: String Particle Acrobatics
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some

> ----------
> From: 	Frederick Sparber[SMTP:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Thursday, August 26, 1999 4:08 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Cc: 	Cwillis sandia.gov; JMeleski@juno.com
> Subject: 	Re: String Particle Acrobatics
> 
> Hank Scudder wrote:
> >
> > What are you doing this for, Fred?
> >
> Simple, Hank, since the particle energy E = .5CV^2  +  .5 LI^2 , if
> you solve for the Displacement Current I = (2E/L)^1/2 when applied
> to the "triad" of adjacent quarks (oscillating strings or string circles)
> in
> a
> Proton you come up with the "Strong Force".
> 
> Secondly, if you treat the wave gyration as if it is a charge,+/-q = CV,
> (where the sign +/- is simply a phase relationship)moving to-and-fro,
> or in a circle, at very close to c, constituting a "current loop" with
> frequency f = c/lambda or i = q*f, as if they are the turns in a solenoid,
> and calculate the frame-of-reference time dilation, you come up
> with the gravitational force.
> 
> IOW, ANY QUARK should have a 4.8*E-10 ampere-meter magnetic
> moment associated with it, but, special relativity dilates that number by
> a
> factor of  1.35E18 to 2.0E21 or so, thus the extremely weak electrogravity
> force.
> 
> Does that help any?   :-)
> 
> Regards,     Frederick
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 26 08:41:47 1999
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Subject: Re: Energy-sucking antennas
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On Fri, 27 Aug 1999, John Berry wrote:

> I agree, interesting though, I have thought about that before too and
> it is interesting, but I figured that was just how antennas work, there
> phase is opposite and does cancel the local field a bit when receiving
> right? It's just that they are not taking much, but I admit I'm not too
> clear on it.
>
> And is it electric field induction, magnetic field induction, or pretty
> much both and you can't separate them?

I think it is both...  for conventional antennas.  However, for "energy
sucking" antennas, the whole phenomenon RELIES on our ability to separate
the electrostatic induction from the magnetic induction.  There are two
types of "sucking" antennas: capacitor plates attached across the
terminals of an LC resonant circuit...  or loop antennas in series with an
LC resonant circuit. 

> What happens if you get iron wire and apply an AC field? you should have
> a field of radiation that has no detectable magnetic field but should
> induce current in the same was that transformers work even though there
> is no magnetic field in the secondary coil as it's kept in the core. 

This is partly a separate topic from the stuff above.  But you've revealed
a valid point.  When you send AC through a magnetically shielded wire or
coil (a toroid-wound coil, for example), there is a vibrating field of
vector potential surrounding the coil.  This field probably will excite a
nearby "energy sucking antenna".  (Or is there an e-field component
surrounding a toroidial AC inductor which would do the exiting?) 


> About the atoms that has been bugging me too, are you sure that a single
> atom can absorb photons so large though, could it be that only many
> atoms can do so, and just because you have a gas does not necessarily
> mean that you have only one atom per 6000 angstroms does it?

The physics papers in my references explore what happens with macro
particles.  The same concepts apply to far smaller atoms, and also to
enormous LC resonant circuits.



> Another interesting idea though in a very different direction but springing
> from that thought is about winding a coil with a small diameter and an outer
> coil with a larger diameter and greater number of turns in series so that they
> create opposite poles concentrically nested in one another.
> magnetic flux in the center from a transformer or rotating magnet should induce
> the same voltage per turn in both of the coils, because the outer one has more
> turns current will flow it's way, but in the center the magnetic field is
> stronger from the smaller coil (also iron could be used to keep the field from
> the outer coil away).
> 
> I have verified that the flux of the smaller coil with fewer turns is dominant
> in the center, and as far as I know it is conventional law that the same
> voltage is induced per turn despite the radius.
> It would appear that we would have a motor and generator at the same time.
> 
> I'm not sure it would work, but it's an interesting theory (want more because
> I've got them? But then again who doesn't;)
> 
> 
> John Berry
> 
> William Beaty wrote:
> 
> > Here's something interesting which might lead to some fascinating
> > engineering applications.  I added it to my website recently, so people
> > here might not have encountered it as yet.
> >
> >    ENERGY-SUCKING ANTENNAS
> >    http://www.amasci.com/tesla/tesceive.html
> >
> > The short version:
> >
> > if your antenna is << wavelength, then use it to
> > transmit a cancelling wave which is phase-locked to the frequency of
> > interest.  This will cancel out the energy in the entire nearfield region
> > of your antenna.  At low frequencies this region is titanic.  But this is
> > impossible!  Energy cannot simply vanish!  You are correct sir.  :)  When
> > the "cancelling wave" has grown to maximum, the antenna is "sucking
> > energy" out of the entire nearfield region surrounding itself.  The huge
> > AC electromagnetic fields generated by these devices act as a type of
> > enormous "virtual EM funnel."  What's more, they are passive devices.  Any
> > resonant circuit of extremely high "Q"-factor is the same as an "energy
> > sucker," but only if we use coils/capacitors which allow the fields within
> > the components to extend into the surrounding space.  A large loop-antenna
> > built of large-diameter copper plumbing pipe would make an excellent
> > low-resistance coil.  Superconductor vacuum-capacitors and coils would be
> > all the better.  Extend a short whip antenna and connect the other
> > terminal to ground, and you'll see an immense voltage appear on the
> > antenna as the "virtual funnel" extends itself and begins to suck energy
> > out of the weak ambient fields.
> >
> > In physics the effect is hidden within the concept regarding the
> > "collision crosssection area" of particles.  These areas vary as the
> > particle energies approach resonant absorbtion frequencies.  The size of
> > your "barn" can vary wildly depending on whether your music is "in tune."
> > :)  This isn't high-energy particle physics, either.  At resonance, a
> > 1-angstrom atom can spread its field-nets outwards to 3000 angstroms and
> > punch a vast hole in the propagating light waves at 6000 angstrom
> > frequencies.  That's why sodium gas is so opaque to the sodium-line
> > spectrum!  (And perhaps why sodium bose-einstein-condensates slow light
> > down to a propagation-speed similar to that of "heat.")
> >
> > In theory these concepts allow us to steal power from both the HAARP
> > antenna grid and the 60Hz power lines, erect walls around our countries
> > which won't let any external propaganda radio stations intrude, transmit
> > kilowatts from tiny desktop antennas, explain the human hearing system and
> > ball lightning, build portable AM radios which need no longwire
> > antennas...  and communicate power to planes, trains, and automobiles
> > through a sort of, ahem, "World System" VLF radio nearfield-energy
> > distribution apparatus which lets extremely feeble RF fields become the
> > transfer medium for power flows greater than anyone could possibly
> > imagine.
> >
> > This stuff has always been around, but in my opinion modern physics is
> > almost entirely clueless about it.  It is an overlooked hole in physics
> > which appears to lead to a vast unexplored realm.  Step through this
> > doorway and discover that the dusty floor contains the aging footprints of
> > N. Tesla and E.W. Keely which lead off into the wilderness in opposite
> > directions.  I always knew that resonance was weird, but when I had an
> > epiphany regarding this stuff it gave me such a serious case of brain-burn
> > that I'm still seriously demented.  (So what else is new?)
> >
> > I looked for conventional physics papers and discovered only two so far,
> > both of which were written in... the 1980s!!!! And one is by my hero Dr.
> > C. Bohren, author of CLOUDS IN A GLASS OF BEER, a fellow physicist/seer
> > whose work I encountered when looking for other people who explore the old
> > storage cabinets of "physics," have discovered how to directly surf the
> > conceptual networks of science knowledge, as well those who enjoy messing
> > about with children's science misconceptions. If Bohren is intrigued, my
> > alarm bells ring wildly.  I still don't know how easy it is to engineer
> > any of this stuff, but if some of the later N. Tesla stories are true, the
> > possibilities are intriguing to say the least.
> >
> > So...
> >
> > Last one to power their electric car via the global thunderstorm
> > Schumann-cavity nonlinear eigenfrequency-resonant ionospheric
> > amplifications...
> >
> > ...is a rotten egg!!!!!
> >
> > ;)
> >
> > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
> > William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> > billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
> > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> > Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
> 

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 26 08:46:29 1999
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Reply-To: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Energy-sucking antennas
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On Fri, 27 Aug 1999, John Berry wrote:

> Forgot to mention, I find your atom absorption theory hard to swallow,
> it could be right but...

The good thing about this is that it's not my theory.  It's from
Bohren, Sutton/Spaniol, and Paul/Fischer (actual genuine scientists all.)


>  The main thing is you could make matter
> transparent by relatively simple means of applying high frequency so
> that it was all phase locked meaning that only "lucky"  radiation would
> have the right phase. 

This is well known: its how population inversion works in lasers.  In
theory, if you take a bright red ruby crystal and invert the population,
the red color vanishes.  It occurs so quickly that human's wouldn't notice
it (their eyes are smarting from looking at the flashtube discharge.)

I don't know if "energy sucking antennas" applies to the opacity of
everyday objects though, since in that case the resonances are broad, and
not extremely narrow like in lasers, sodium gas, etc. 

But now that you've mentioned it...  this sounds vaguely plausible.  If we
could rely upon some sort of unsuspected nonlinear EM effect in the atoms,
then perhaps if we could crank up the vibrating fields to a high enough
degree, and it would alter the index of refraction.  After all, the
refractive index of transparent substances is really about virtual
photons, and not about actual pumping of the electron shells of the atoms. 

Wait a minute.  We could try a test.  Maybe if we wind a coil around a
prism and give it some sort of enormous (rotating?)  EM field, the
refractive power of the prism will change.  Use a laser beam with a long
"throw", shine it through your prism, and look for deflections of the dot. 
Try all sorts of different frequencies and intensities until you hit the
sweet spot (if one exists, I mean.)

Now instead of slightly altering its refractive index, if instead the
prism seems to "go away,"  then I suggest you perform the next experiment
on...  what...  maybe... could be... 

A BATTLESHIP?  :)

Or at least use a piece of metal like with Hutchison's experiments and see
if THAT becomes transparent or goes away.  I hadn't considered that. 
Tesla? Resonance? Holes in physics which for some reason the rest of
science has never cared about? 

Well. The other shoe drops, and its not MY foot that's in it.

If EM fields or vibrating vector-potential can interfere with the
refractive index of matter, then it would be an easy experiment to attempt
to make a huge structure "go away" as part of a camoflage attempt.  You'd
need a really big coil and a large number of high-power switching devices
wired in parallel (banks and banks of vacuum tubes.)  If other phenomena
were also observed, then you'd have grounds for further research.  :) 

That hole in physics?  Maybe its not a hole.  Maybe it's a bag.  A bag
with a whole hell of a lot of cats peering over its edge.

Um.  If my whole family suddenly disappears while we're on vacation,
I guess you'll know where to find us.  But then, ever it was thus.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 26 09:43:02 1999
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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
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Subject: Re: " Recessed in Time"
In-Reply-To: <37C4C9F0.1061 ca-ois.com> from Jim Ostrowski at "Aug 25, 99 10:00:33 pm"
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Jim Ostrowski wrote:
> Appearance then is actuality to someone who cannot or will not try think
> of a way to get around the thing that is said to be limited by the
> percieved obstacle. To those who try to imagine ways to get around the
> obstacle, "appearance" does not necessarily = "actuality". 

I was focusing on the limits of knowledge, rather than the limitations
of individuals, which would be an exercise in ad hominem, and therefore
of no particular logical merit.

The fundamental obstacle in fringe science is the difficulty
in discerning when nature has hidden some aspect of its
truth versus when something "just ain't so."

Most of the heat and almost none of the light comes from the ego
clashes between those who have journeyed down disparate paths.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 26 10:46:19 1999
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At 11:39 AM 8/26/99 -0500, John Logajan wrote:
>Jim Ostrowski wrote:
>> Appearance then is actuality to someone who cannot or will not try think
>> of a way to get around the thing that is said to be limited by the
>> percieved obstacle. To those who try to imagine ways to get around the
>> obstacle, "appearance" does not necessarily = "actuality". 
>
>I was focusing on the limits of knowledge, rather than the limitations
>of individuals, which would be an exercise in ad hominem, and therefore
>of no particular logical merit.

  Given that there are false positives and negatives in experimental
work, and optical illusions generally, limitations of individuals
are not all ad hominem, and ought be studied.  We have trouble
describing what is in front of us in medicine, planetary imaging,
and even in many experiments.  The cognitive issues may not be trivial.

  --------------------------------------------------

>The fundamental obstacle in fringe science is the difficulty
>in discerning when nature has hidden some aspect of its
>truth versus when something "just ain't so."
>
>Most of the heat and almost none of the light comes from the ego
>clashes between those who have journeyed down disparate paths.


  Good points.  
   Autant des hommes.  Autant d'avis.

    Mitchell Swartz


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 26 13:07:03 1999
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: RE: Energy-sucking antennas 
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On Thu, 26 Aug 1999, Scudder, Henry J wrote:

> Bill
> 	If you take a wire 10 feet or so in length, and stick it up a few
> feet above a ground plane, in any urban environment you can get a voltage
> between the base of the antenna and ground on the order of a volt or two.

Yep!  I have to deal with this all of the time in electronics design (how
to shield against it of course, not how to detect it.)

> Try it, with an oscilloscope to look at amplitudes and waveforms. All the
> radio and TV stations, as well as powerline EMF's will appear. You can stick
> a diode there, and filter it with a capacitor, and get free dc power.


Certainly.  That is the basic story depicted by fig. 1 in the "Energy
Sucking" paper.   http://www.amasci.com/tesla/tesceive.html


> You
> could use a dc-dc converter here and get a free dc power supply. On my boat,
> I have a LORAN antenna which is similar to what I just described. The
> antenna has a built in preamp, which is powered from the RF, and amplifies
> the 100 KHz pulses that constitute the LORAN system. With a large enough
> antenna farm, such as RCA has on Long Island, you might even get enough
> power to charge an electric car, but I doubt it.

Ah, that means that I was unclear.  At resonance, the large AC signal on
the antenna can, in theory, reach out to fill the entire nearfield region
surrounding the antenna.  This phenomenon causes the "effective area" of
the antenna to increase.  This increase is limited by the Q of the
resonator.  Spatially, physics also limits this increase to the diameter
of the nearfield region.  Thought experiment: with infinite Q, and at low
frequencies, the effective area of a resonator/antenna combination can
become totally humongous, like hundreds of KM across, yet the physical
antenna would be tiny.  What does this mean for real-world systems? I
don't know.  We'd have to experiment (or write some Excel simulations.) 

> The big problem is the
> effective area of the antenna, and the inverse power law of distance from a
> source of power.

Yep.  The effect can only work for electrically small antennas.  It
essentially converts an electrically small antenna into a large one, but
it obviously cannot do any better than increasing the size of this
"invisible antenna" region and forcing it to resemble a half-wave dipole
(or probably lots less than that, maybe like 1/6 wavelength at the most,
maybe much less.)  But think about what this means at low frequencies.  It
means that an active "desktop antenna" can be forced to swell in
"electrical size"  until it's hundreds of feet across! 

> Your antenna only intercepts a small portion of the sphere
> around the local TV station's antenna.  

That's the key point.  The "cancelling wave" is much larger than the
antenna, and so a little bitty antenna (like a little bitty atom) can
create an enlarged "effective area" and intercept huge amounts of energy.
Does this sound insane?  Definitely!  It is the weirdest damned thing I've
ever heard of, and I thought I totally understood how radios work.  I'm
supposedly an electronics expert (never been a Ham, though.)


> 	When I was in the boy scouts 50 years ago, I wanted to listen to a
> football game when I was on a hike. The hike was on a mountain which had a
> broadcast antenna which was broadcasting the game. I hooked up a wire, a
> diode, and a pair of earphones from a Ham rig, and was able to just barely
> listen to the game. Free power is available, but not much.

Cool!

As a kid, we lived about a mile from the WENY tower in Elmira, New York.
In that situation, crystal radios would still work even with no coil or
capacitor.  Just a diode, about a 5ft antenna wire, ground, and a
hi-impedance headphone.

Aha, I just saw another aspect.  The coil/capacitor in a crystal radio,
since it connects directly to the antenna without any active amplifiers to
get in the way...  behaves as an "energy sucker."  Without that
coil/capacitor, the headphones won't produce sound.  Ah, so THAT'S why
crystal radios do that.  I've always wondered why the headphones in those
radios don't create a jabber from *all* radio stations when you yank the
coil-capacitor off of the crystal radio.  It's because the resonator is
NOT A FILTER.  Instead it is an active antenna.  It's because the
resonator accumulates energy from the crystal radio's antenna, stimulates
the antenna and forces it to produce some field-cancellation, behaves as
an oscillator that's powered by the fields in the environment, produces
the "enhanced effective area" phenomena, and "sucks energy" out of a
region of space surrounding the antenna of the crystal radio.  The longer
the device is in tune, the bigger the energy-sucking effect grows, until
it is limited by the Q-factor losses in the coil. 

I am stunned.  I thought that at least I understood how simple crystal
radios worked!



((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 26 13:41:37 1999
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Perhaps there is now a good reason to live near high power lines!


--
Regards,
Patrick V. Reavis


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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: RE: Energy-sucking antennas 
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At 01:04 PM 8/26/1999 -0700, William Beaty wrote:
>On Thu, 26 Aug 1999, Scudder, Henry J wrote:
 
>> 	If you take a wire 10 feet or so in length, and stick it up a few
>> feet above a ground plane, in any urban environment you can get a voltage
>> between the base of the antenna and ground on the order of a volt or two.
>
>Yep!  I have to deal with this all of the time in electronics design (how
>to shield against it of course, not how to detect it.)

    The crystal radio effect discuss is very real, but if you want to do the experiment, remember the discoveries of Dr. Benjamin Franklin about space charge.   When a thunderstorm moves in, if you have a high resistance to ground, your "space sucking" an
tenna will be pulling in kilowatts to meagawatts of power.  More if it is actually struck by lightning. ;-(  Ben Franklin had a lab two-hundred years ago where as a summer storm would approach a bell would start ringing, and he could go to his lab and do 
experiments.  I keep thinking that someone will finally get around to using the space charge effect to supply power.  (The problem is that you need to store lots of power, since at best you are storing power about twenty minutes a day.  You could do this 
in parts of Florida, and pull down several Megawatt hours per day.)

    Of course the reason I mention this is that any antenna without a high-impedence low-resistance ground can kill you if you are not careful.  (Years ago, I had a CB antenna on the top of my parent's house.  I once measured four hundred amps to ground. 
 Needless to say, I upgraded the ground wire to #4 copper.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Energy sucking antenna
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Interesting stuff, Bill.

If you listen closely, your inner ear (cochlear membrane & fluids) acts like
a squishy diode
and you can hear the "white noise" from all of the EM Smog around.   :-)

Unfortunately, for some folks their hearing process will not ignore certain
demodulated
"noise" such as the 30 x 525 pps tv broadcast synch pulses or  the 30 hz
framing envelope.

You can hear down to about 1.0E-17 watts/cm^2 through the outer and middle
ear. The cochlear process listening to amplitude modulated EM can go down to
at least 1.0E-21 watts/cm^2.  This rivals the sensitivity of an 85 ft
diameter dish
at the VLA site!

 Don't be surprised if some people can "hear" what you are thinking.  :-)

When I got involved with the Taos Hum phenomena I took a piece of thin mylar
about 2 cm wide x 10 cm long,silvered on both sides and laminated in a
plastic
jacket with enough of the silver sticking out to attach leads to an
amplifier and
immersed it in a plastic bottle about 5 cm diameter x 12 cm long, and sealed
it with
paraffin wax.

With a good amplifer, you would be surprised what that energy sucker can
hear.

Regards,   Frederick



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Subject: Re: Energy sucking antenna
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 08:34:00 +1000
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>immersed it in a plastic bottle about 5 cm diameter x 12 cm long, and
sealed
>it with
>paraffin wax.
>
>Frederick
>

Immersed in what, please?

Peter Nielsen




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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Peter Nielsen <nielsenp lis.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: Energy sucking antenna

Tap water right out of a private well, about 12 grains hardness. 

Sorry about that, I thought it, but I left it out.  :-(

Regards,    Frederick 


> >immersed it in a plastic bottle about 5 cm diameter x 12 cm long, and
> sealed
> >it with
> >paraffin wax.
> >
> >Frederick
> >
> 
> Immersed in what, please?
> 
> Peter Nielsen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 26 16:57:32 1999
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----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Nielsen <nielsenp lis.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: Energy sucking antenna

BTW, Peter, a 25 cent disk capacitor with the leads insulated with nail
polish
immersed in water and sealed in a plastic container will work also.
You can pre-polarize it with a voltage, too.

I bread-boarded an amplifier circuit, designed by a EE, that ran on a 9 volt
battery.  One needs good electrical shielding on the circuitry and acoustic
shielding on
the transducer, since it acts like a sensitive hydrophone, also.

Regards,     Frederick

> >immersed it in a plastic bottle about 5 cm diameter x 12 cm long, and
> sealed
> >it with
> >paraffin wax.
> >
> >Frederick
> >
>
> Immersed in what, please?
>
> Peter Nielsen
>
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 26 19:52:21 1999
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Mitchell Swartz wrote:
> 
> At 11:39 AM 8/26/99 -0500, John Logajan wrote:

> >Jim Ostrowski wrote:
> >> Appearance then is actuality to someone who cannot or will not try think
> >> of a way to get around the thing that is said to be limited by the
> >> percieved obstacle. To those who try to imagine ways to get around the
> >> obstacle, "appearance" does not necessarily = "actuality".

John Logajon wrote:
> >
> >I was focusing on the limits of knowledge, rather than the limitations
> >of individuals, which would be an exercise in ad hominem, and therefore
> >of no particular logical merit.

Yes let's not get bogged down in ad hominems. I did not intend what I
had to say about Einstein or even "Minkowski" to be taken as ad
hominems, just pointing out that there are sufficient reasons to doubt
some of the underlying assertions.   

Mttchell Scwartz wrote:
> 
>   Given that there are false positives and negatives in experimental
> work, and optical illusions generally, limitations of individuals
> are not all ad hominem, and ought be studied.  We have trouble
> describing what is in front of us in medicine, planetary imaging,
> and even in many experiments.  The cognitive issues may not be trivial.
> 
>   --------------------------------------------------

I thought it was a philosophical problem on the part of the Pope who
didn't want to look through Gallileo's telescope, not a cognitive one.

I think the Pope's philosophy was of our "Apparent = Actual" variety.
(please don't construe tha as an ad hominem on whichever Pope it was
Gallileo was trying to convince). 

Anyway let's get down to cases, shall we?

I think there is a reasonable experiment that could be performed that
could demonstrate faster than light signalling. In fact it may have
already demonstrated that in it's previous run(s) but I think the
poeople who looked at it already maybe have a "philosophical problem" in
their interpretation of the result. This is a test as I understand it of
what is called the EPR "Paradox".  Einstein Rosen Podolsky .

Is anyone interested in discussning that experiment? A good discussion
would be facilitated greatly by the animated demo available from
simtelnet "spooky2.zip" 

The download site is:

http://oak.oakland.edu/simtel.net/msdos/science.html

and the downloadable file is: Spooky2.zip.

When uncompressed and run in msdos mode select the Half Silvered Mirror
demo. 

Anyone's comments after having run the demo would be appreciated. 

Jim Ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 26 21:06:16 1999
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At 07:39 PM 8/26/99 -0700, Jim Ostrowski wrote:
>Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>> 
>> At 11:39 AM 8/26/99 -0500, John Logajan wrote:
>
>> >Jim Ostrowski wrote:
>> >> Appearance then is actuality to someone who cannot or will not try think
>> >> of a way to get around the thing that is said to be limited by the
>> >> percieved obstacle. To those who try to imagine ways to get around the
>> >> obstacle, "appearance" does not necessarily = "actuality".
>
>John Logajon wrote:
>> >
>> >I was focusing on the limits of knowledge, rather than the limitations
>> >of individuals, which would be an exercise in ad hominem, and therefore
>> >of no particular logical merit.
>
>Yes let's not get bogged down in ad hominems. I did not intend what I
>had to say about Einstein or even "Minkowski" to be taken as ad
>hominems, just pointing out that there are sufficient reasons to doubt
>some of the underlying assertions.


   Didnt mean here.  It just seems to a phenomenon on the net.


>Mttchell Swartz wrote:
>> 
>>   Given that there are false positives and negatives in experimental
>> work, and optical illusions generally, limitations of individuals
>> are not all ad hominem, and ought be studied.  We have trouble
>> describing what is in front of us in medicine, planetary imaging,
>> and even in many experiments.  The cognitive issues may not be trivial.
>> 
>>   --------------------------------------------------
>
>I thought it was a philosophical problem on the part of the Pope who
>didn't want to look through Gallileo's telescope, not a cognitive one.


  I stand corrected, in that there are clearly
  QRM issues, too.  ;-)X

   Mitchell Swartz


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Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 02:38:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Both sides ?  Re: Energy sucking antenna
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	Dear Fred and vo.

	Where did you get mylar silvered on both sides?  Was it aluminum
for "silvering" ... or silver ,, of maybe nickle??

	Was this immersed in water?  Was this stuff piezo film?

	A little detail on the sounds?


	Thanks, 

		John

On Thu, 26 Aug 1999, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> Interesting stuff, Bill.
> 
> If you listen closely, your inner ear (cochlear membrane & fluids) acts like
> a squishy diode
> and you can hear the "white noise" from all of the EM Smog around.   :-)
> 
> Unfortunately, for some folks their hearing process will not ignore certain
> demodulated
> "noise" such as the 30 x 525 pps tv broadcast synch pulses or  the 30 hz
> framing envelope.
> 
> You can hear down to about 1.0E-17 watts/cm^2 through the outer and middle
> ear. The cochlear process listening to amplitude modulated EM can go down to
> at least 1.0E-21 watts/cm^2.  This rivals the sensitivity of an 85 ft
> diameter dish
> at the VLA site!
> 
>  Don't be surprised if some people can "hear" what you are thinking.  :-)
> 
> When I got involved with the Taos Hum phenomena I took a piece of thin mylar
> about 2 cm wide x 10 cm long,silvered on both sides and laminated in a
> plastic
> jacket with enough of the silver sticking out to attach leads to an
> amplifier and
> immersed it in a plastic bottle about 5 cm diameter x 12 cm long, and sealed
> it with
> paraffin wax.
> 
> With a good amplifer, you would be surprised what that energy sucker can
> hear.
> 
> Regards,   Frederick
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 00:51:19 1999
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Subject: Re: Both sides ?  Re: Energy-sucking antenna
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----- Original Message -----
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 11:38 PM
Subject: Both sides ? Re: Energy sucking antenna

John Schnurer wrote:


>
>
> Dear Fred and vo.
>
> Where did you get mylar silvered on both sides?  Was it aluminum
> for "silvering" ... or silver ,, of maybe nickle??

It was silver put on by thin film (500 angstroms) sputtering in vacuum.

Yes, both sides.

Sheldahl  www.sheldahl.com   makes these metalized films on teflon, mylar,
etc. for
spacecraft protection.


>
> Was this immersed in water?

Yes.

>Was this stuff piezo film?

No, but, metallized electret film might prove interesting.
>
> A little detail on the sounds?

Not much detail, about everything from 60 Hz "buzz" up using headphones.
I didn't have a scope or spectrum analyzer.

Regards,    Frederick
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
>
> On Thu, 26 Aug 1999, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> > Interesting stuff, Bill.
> >
> > If you listen closely, your inner ear (cochlear membrane & fluids) acts
like
> > a squishy diode
> > and you can hear the "white noise" from all of the EM Smog around.   :-)
> >
> > Unfortunately, for some folks their hearing process will not ignore
certain
> > demodulated
> > "noise" such as the 30 x 525 pps tv broadcast synch pulses or  the 30 hz
> > framing envelope.
> >
> > You can hear down to about 1.0E-17 watts/cm^2 through the outer and
middle
> > ear. The cochlear process listening to amplitude modulated EM can go
down to
> > at least 1.0E-21 watts/cm^2.  This rivals the sensitivity of an 85 ft
> > diameter dish
> > at the VLA site!
> >
> >  Don't be surprised if some people can "hear" what you are thinking.
:-)
> >
> > When I got involved with the Taos Hum phenomena I took a piece of thin
mylar
> > about 2 cm wide x 10 cm long,silvered on both sides and laminated in a
> > plastic
> > jacket with enough of the silver sticking out to attach leads to an
> > amplifier and
> > immersed it in a plastic bottle about 5 cm diameter x 12 cm long, and
sealed
> > it with
> > paraffin wax.
> >
> > With a good amplifer, you would be surprised what that energy sucker can
> > hear.
> >
> > Regards,   Frederick
> >
> >
> >
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 01:42:41 1999
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Subject: Allais effect news: tentatively looks positive(?)
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Vo

Here are some messages I found on the newsgroups regarding data from the
Aug. 11 eclipse. Also word is that Noever finds the data so far
"interesting", but will still take some time to hash out.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: Eclipse gravity/foucault data ?
Date: 1999/08/25
Author: Observer
<observer tin.it>


>bert hubert wrote:

>Is anybody here aware of places to get more information on the >results of the
>gravity/foucault measurements made during the August  11th eclipse?  I am aware
>of the Discovery News page, but that's about it. I'm  *desperate* for more
>information!

Up to now I can just say that there is a unconfirmed report that the 50m
Foucault
pendulum located at the Kremsmuenster abbey (Austria) showed a behaviour
like that
exibited by the Foucault pendulum located at Jassy University, Romania,
during the
solar eclipse of February 15, 1981.

Recorded observations at Jassy University:

http://www.knowledge.co.uk/frontiers/sf074/sf074a05.htm

Observer
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> Forum: sci.astro
>> Thread: Eclipse gravity/foucault data ?
>> Message 2 of 60


Subject: Re: Eclipse gravity/foucault data ?
Date: 1999/08/26
Author: Jan
Panteltje <jan panteltje.demon.nl>


>Up to now I can just say that there is a unconfirmed report that the
>50m Foucault pendulum located at the Kremsmuenster abbey (Austria)
>showed a behaviour like that exibited by the Foucault pendulum located
>at Jassy University, Romania, during the solar eclipse of February 15,
>1981.
>
>Recorded observations at Jassy University:

>http://www.knowledge.co.uk/frontiers/sf074/sf074a05.htm

>Observer

Data from that site shows:

Time Period (sec)

8:49     10.028
9:13     10.028
9:43     10.024
10:00    10.019
10:12    10.020
10:24    10.024
10:58    10.028

This seems to confirm the theory that gravity is caused by fast particles
moving in straight lines in all directions. I thought these particles mihgt
originate in processes in (some?) stars. The data shows the period is
decreasing i.e. the gravity is reduced during the eclipse. That COULD be
because particles originated from the sun are intercepted. My $1.50 worth.

Jan


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The author above might be jumping the gun just a bit <g>, but it sounds like
the data *might* be in favor of an eclip[se pendulum anomaly.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 02:14:42 1999
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FOUR HUNDRED AMPS TO GROUND?!?!?!

What measurements did you normally get from that CB antenna?

I don't care if it only works once a month, that would be a Great demo!
What are the specs. to do this, and what would the probability of success be? (I guess largely dependent on location though)

Any ideas what the voltage could be? Would not need to be much at that amperage level.

How would you make an antenna like the one you measured that current from?

That makes Tesla's system of slowly charging a capacitor seem real silly.


John Berry

"Robert I. Eachus" wrote:

> At 01:04 PM 8/26/1999 -0700, William Beaty wrote:
> >On Thu, 26 Aug 1999, Scudder, Henry J wrote:
>
> >>      If you take a wire 10 feet or so in length, and stick it up a few
> >> feet above a ground plane, in any urban environment you can get a voltage
> >> between the base of the antenna and ground on the order of a volt or two.
> >
> >Yep!  I have to deal with this all of the time in electronics design (how
> >to shield against it of course, not how to detect it.)
>
>     The crystal radio effect discuss is very real, but if you want to do the experiment, remember the discoveries of Dr. Benjamin Franklin about space charge.   When a thunderstorm moves in, if you have a high resistance to ground, your "space sucking" 
antenna will be pulling in kilowatts to meagawatts of power.  More if it is actually struck by lightning. ;-(  Ben Franklin had a lab two-hundred years ago where as a summer storm would approach a bell would start ringing, and he could go to his lab and d
o experiments.  I keep thinking that someone will finally get around to using the space charge effect to supply power.  (The problem is that you need to store lots of power, since at best you are storing power about twenty minutes a day.  You could do thi
s in parts of Florida, and pull down several Megawatt hours per day.)
>
>     Of course the reason I mention this is that any antenna without a high-impedence low-resistance ground can kill you if you are not careful.  (Years ago, I had a CB antenna on the top of my parent's house.  I once measured four hundred amps to ground
.  Needless to say, I upgraded the ground wire to #4 copper.
>
>                                         Robert I. Eachus
>
> with Standard_Disclaimer;
> use  Standard_Disclaimer;
> function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...

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Electrical Structure of Thunderstorms
Electrical Structure of Thunderstorms
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
 William P. Winn=20

We still do not understand how thunderstorms become electrified and make =
lightning. In order to address this, we have been studying the =
electrical structure of thunderstorms with electric field meters mounted =
on rockets, balloons, and aircraft. Based on our results so far, the =
main region of charge responsible for lightning appears to be =
distributed in a horizontal layer, where temperatures are somewhat below =
freezing, which suggests that ice particles in clouds might be involved =
in electrification. Following this lead, experiments involving myself, =
my students and my colleagues are underway which make concurrent =
measurements of electric field and particle properties (size, shape, =
charge) using instruments carried by balloons and airplanes.=20
        Lightning strike at Langmuir Laboratory, photo by Joseph Sheedy  =



New avenues of research on thunderstorm electricity are now possible =
because of modern linear and digital integrated circuits, which enable =
us to make lightweight, inexpensive instruments to fly into =
thunderstorms. Much of our work is done at Langmuir Laboratory, a =
thunderstorm research facility which New Mexico Tech operates in the =
nearby Magdalena mountains. Langmuir Laboratory provides balloon =
hangars, rocket launching facilities, restricted airspace, and other =
necessary facilities directly beneath summer thunderstorms. We have only =
begun to utilize new techniques and facilities; there is much work yet =
to be done.=20


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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Electrical Structure of Thunderstorms</TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BASE=20
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<H3><FONT size=3D7>Electrical Structure of Thunderstorms
<HR noShade>
</FONT> <I>William P. Winn</I>=20
<P>
<H3>We still do not understand how thunderstorms become electrified and =
make=20
lightning. In order to address this, we have been studying the =
electrical=20
structure of thunderstorms with electric field meters mounted on =
rockets,=20
balloons, and aircraft. Based on our results so far, the main region of =
charge=20
responsible for lightning appears to be distributed in a horizontal =
layer, where=20
temperatures are somewhat below freezing, which suggests that ice =
particles in=20
clouds might be involved in electrification. Following this lead, =
experiments=20
involving myself, my students and my colleagues are underway which make=20
concurrent measurements of electric field and particle properties (size, =
shape,=20
charge) using instruments carried by balloons and airplanes.=20
<P>
<TABLE border=3D0 cellPadding=3D10 cellSpacing=3D10 width=3D550>
  <TBODY>
  <TR>
    <TD><IMG src=3D"http://bat.nmt.edu/photo_gallery/strike1(icon).jpg"> =

    <TD>Lightning strike at Langmuir Laboratory, photo by Joseph Sheedy=20
  </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P>New avenues of research on thunderstorm electricity are now possible =
because=20
of modern linear and digital integrated circuits, which enable us to =
make=20
lightweight, inexpensive instruments to fly into thunderstorms. Much of =
our work=20
is done at Langmuir Laboratory, a thunderstorm research facility which =
New=20
Mexico Tech operates in the nearby Magdalena mountains. Langmuir =
Laboratory=20
provides balloon hangars, rocket launching facilities, restricted =
airspace, and=20
other necessary facilities directly beneath summer thunderstorms. We =
have only=20
begun to utilize new techniques and facilities; there is much work yet =
to be=20
done. </H3></P></H3></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 05:18:50 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Welcome To Langmuir Laboratory
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 06:15:50 -0700
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Re: Energy-sucking antenna,etc.

 http://bat.nmt.edu/

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 06:07:49 1999
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Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:59:44 -0500
From: "Patrick V. Reavis" <preavis ro.com>
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To: Allen Bennink <abennink rgv.net>, Bill Curtis <williamfcurtis@hotmail.com>,
        Bobert Fisher <tastebud mindspring.com>,
        Brudda Jeff <spawnopi1 webtv.net>, Carole Bullock <Cbullock38@aol.com>,
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        Frankie Cole <snowjr bellsouth.net>, Heath Niehaus <Hniehaus@aol.com>,
        James Pleasure <jwpleasu ingr.com>, James Reavis <jreavis@ro.com>,
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        Mark Pierson <EVILJEFFRY aol.com>, Nancy Snowden <nmsnowde@ingr.com>,
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        Ron Chapman <bamafever airnet.net>, Steve Reavis <sreavis@ro.com>,
        Sue <ss7311 webtv.net>, Thomas Godfroy <Thomas.Godfroy@msfc.nasa.gov>,
        Thomas McClure <Tomc400327 aol.com>,
        Thomas McClure <McCLURE-TA redstone.army.mil>,
        Tim Reavis <Tnreavis aol.com>, Vortex-L <vortex-l@eskimo.com>,
        William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>,
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Subject: Security alert....
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  Some Windows security issues identified...

 http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/21442.html


--
Regards,
Patrick V. Reavis
http://ro.com/~preavis
http://ro.com/~preavis/Quiz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 07:13:47 1999
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Subject: Re: Energy-sucking antennas
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On Fri, 27 Aug 1999, John Berry wrote:

> FOUR HUNDRED AMPS TO GROUND?!?!?!
> 
> What measurements did you normally get from that CB antenna?

And was this AC?   Also, if it was a DVM, the corona discharge would make
a huge electrical noise and distort the readings.  If it was an analog
meter, the noise wouldn't have much effect.

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 07:19:41 1999
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Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:23:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Y to K   Compliance (fwd)
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Subject: Y to K 



>          aid's memo to his boss:
> 
>         To: My Boss
>         From: Aid Andy
>         Subject: Changing calenders
> 
>         I hope that I haven't misunderstood your instructions because,
> to be honest, none of this Y to K problem made much sense to me. At any
> rate, I have finished the conversion of all of the months on all the
> company calendars for next year. The calendars have returned from the
> printer and are ready to be distributed with the following new months:
> 
>         Januark
>         Februark
>         Mak
>         Julk
> 
>         I also changed all the days of each week to:
> 
>         Sundak
>         Mondak
>         Tuesdak
>         Wednesdak
>         Thursdak
>         Fridak
>         Saturdak
> 
>         We are now Y to K compliant.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 07:32:54 1999
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Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:22:22 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Allais effect news: tentatively looks positive(?)
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>Vo
>
>Here are some messages I found on the newsgroups regarding data from the
>Aug. 11 eclipse. Also word is that Noever finds the data so far
>"interesting", but will still take some time to hash out.
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Subject: Re: Eclipse gravity/foucault data ?
>Date: 1999/08/25
>Author: Observer
><observer tin.it>
>
>
>>bert hubert wrote:
>
>>Is anybody here aware of places to get more information on the >results
>>of the
>>gravity/foucault measurements made during the August  11th eclipse?  I am
>>aware
>>of the Discovery News page, but that's about it. I'm  *desperate* for more
>>information!
>
>Up to now I can just say that there is a unconfirmed report that the 50m
>Foucault
>pendulum located at the Kremsmuenster abbey (Austria) showed a behaviour
>like that
>exibited by the Foucault pendulum located at Jassy University, Romania,
>during the
>solar eclipse of February 15, 1981.
>
>Recorded observations at Jassy University:
>
>http://www.knowledge.co.uk/frontiers/sf074/sf074a05.htm
>
>Observer
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>> Forum: sci.astro
>>> Thread: Eclipse gravity/foucault data ?
>>> Message 2 of 60
>
>
>Subject: Re: Eclipse gravity/foucault data ?
>Date: 1999/08/26
>Author: Jan
>Panteltje <jan panteltje.demon.nl>
>
>
>>Up to now I can just say that there is a unconfirmed report that the
>>50m Foucault pendulum located at the Kremsmuenster abbey (Austria)
>>showed a behaviour like that exibited by the Foucault pendulum located
>>at Jassy University, Romania, during the solar eclipse of February 15,
>>1981.
>>
>>Recorded observations at Jassy University:
>
>>http://www.knowledge.co.uk/frontiers/sf074/sf074a05.htm
>
>>Observer
>
>Data from that site shows:
>
>Time Period (sec)
>
>8:49     10.028
>9:13     10.028
>9:43     10.024
>10:00    10.019
>10:12    10.020
>10:24    10.024
>10:58    10.028
>
>This seems to confirm the theory that gravity is caused by fast particles
>moving in straight lines in all directions. I thought these particles mihgt
>originate in processes in (some?) stars. The data shows the period is
>decreasing i.e. the gravity is reduced during the eclipse.

***{This is backwards. Suppose that a pendulum is at one of the high points
in its arc, and gravity begins to increase. Result: the average value of g
will be higher when it reaches the bottom of its arc than would have been
the case otherwise, and its velocity at that point will be higher. But as
it continues into the rising half of its cycle, the continued increase in
the value of g will cause the average value of g in that half of its cycle
to be *even higher* than it was in the descending half. Result: the
pendulum will come to a stop in less time than was required for it to
attain maximum velocity (at the bottom of the arc). Thus as long as g
continues to rise, the period of the pendulum will *decrease* not increase.

Applying such an analysis to the data presented above, the implication is
that gravity increased as the moon lined up with the sun, as is to be
expected. The magnitude of the increase, however, seems vastly larger than
might be expected on the basis of the change in the moon's field over the
tiny time interval that is involved, and seems to clearly refute all
theories of gravitation (such as GR) that require the summation of the
moon's field with that of the sun to obtain a gravitational resultant. What
we seem to have here is a lensing of gravity particles as they pass from
the sun through the moon. The moon seems to be acting as a spherical
(convex) lens, producing a gravitational focal point where the line of
centers from sun to moon strikes the earth, at the instant of eclipse
totality. The implication is that the force of gravitation is carried
through space by particles, and is *not* a field or "curvature" that is
associated with the space near massive bodies. Bottom line: this result
seems to eliminate GR from consideration. We are down to a contest between
particulate theories of gravitation: the standard pull theory mediated by
"gravitons" streaming out from massive bodies, and the push theory,
mediated by "ultramundane corpuscles" (Lesage) raining down on us from deep
space, and tending to push massive bodies together. (The push theory will
ultimately prevail, but not on the basis of this experiment.)

--Mitchell Jones}***

That COULD be
>because particles originated from the sun are intercepted. My $1.50 worth.
>
>Jan
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>The author above might be jumping the gun just a bit <g>, but it sounds like
>the data *might* be in favor of an eclip[se pendulum anomaly.
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 07:55:00 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Huggins comments on glow discharge
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I've been discussing the glow discharge experiments with Robert Huggins
(rhg techfak.uni-kiel.de). Attached are some of his comments. He asks, "do
you know of anyone who is using a liquid metal as an electrode?" The answer
is, no I don't, except Liaw and Liebert at U. Hawaii many years ago. Does
anyone here know of something like this?

- Jed



The disintegration of the electrode in the glow discharge experiments is a
major disadvantage. It may be that one needs to cool it internally by
flowing water. That is what is done in TIG (tungsten electrode inert gas)
welding. It might make the calorimetry more complicated, however. 

In addition, what happens on, or near, the surface of the tungsten is
apparently very different in the two cases.

What I think is needed is an experiment that can run in steady state for a
long time . . .


I seem to have gotten fully involved in work on several aspects of advanced
batteries, e.g. Li systems, but still maintain a keen interest in what is
going on. . . . I did some simple experiments here that showed that I could
reproduce the glow discharge phenomenon and some of its major
characteristics, but the electrode disintegration problem raised it ugly
head. 

Do you know of anyone who is using a liquid metal as an electrode ?  That
would introduce a few thermal engineering challenges, but might avoid the
mechanical disintegration problems. It might also allow the use of
different materials. How do we know that tungsten, or thoriated tungsten,
is best ?


The phenomena on, or near, the tungsten electrode is obviously different in
the aqueous glow discharge experiments from those in TIG welding in several
ways. One is, of course, the identity of the ions in the gas plasma. There
is also the evaporation of electrically neutral water nearby due to the
large heat evolution - I assume that this has been confirmed by collection
and analysis of the evolved gas. Then there is the important matter of the
type of surface damage that is found. . . .

Because of the tungsten degradation problem, I got discouraged with the
direction of the glow discharge experiments that I was doing in May, 1998.
If I can learn more about how others get around such problems, I should get
back into them.

. . .

By the way, do you know about the interesting approach to audio sources by
American Technology Corporation ? You can find them as ATCO on the stock
market. They also have a web page at www.atcsd.com.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 08:48:42 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Security alert....
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 11:51:53 -0400
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>
>  Some Windows security issues identified...
>
> http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/21442.html


There's nothing as convincing as a little demo to show you just EXACTLY how
open your system is to outside viewers.  If you have a business or are
working on a design that you may hope to patent, and use your computer at
all, check this out while you still have a business.

http://www.SaxInvestigations.com/

Knuke, the no longer naive, but still not the knave.


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 08:54:58 1999
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Subject: Bill B's secret of free energy?  YEAH?!!! well...
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It went BANG last night, big time.

Wind a toroidial inductor (self shielding.)

Build a high-Q, high voltage coil/capacitor resonator, attach it to a
small "capacitive dipole" probe antenna.  (Perhaps high frequency will
work better.)

Hold the probe antenna near the toroidial inductor with the dipole aligned
in the same direction of the windings, as if the probe antenna was a small
segment of a toroidial transformer secondary.  Then drive the toroidial
inductor with AC at the resonant frequency of the LC tuned circuit.
Extract energy via a small resistor in series with the inductor of the
tuned circuit.

This might simply form an exotic sort of transformer.  Perform
measurements on the device and see if output vastly exceeds input. 

If I am right, the mathematics of the nearfield violates several known
laws of physics, but nobody has yet seen it.  Neither have I, I only feel
it.  If I am right, then you can extract energy from the resonator, and it
will not load down the inductor.   (Yet another "back-reaction-less" free
energy device.)

In the above, connect the one to the other and watch out, because the
self-oscillation might create an enormous flash. 

I haven't tried this yet.  I'm going to be away for awhile.  If the feces
hits the fan while I'm gone, I'll look for the newspaper headlines!  :)

I am extremely excited about this because the synchronicity storm is at an
all time high right now, as if future events are "sucking history" from
the past into the future at an accelerating rate by the hour.  Very deeply
intensely weird. 

I am extremely excited because I look at "energy sucking antennas", and I
look at this "transformer" thingie, and I look at the Testatika device...
and I say...

oh.   my.    god.

Rotating alternately-charged capactitor plates could stimulate a high-Q
inductor too.  The mechanical version of the above.  The "energy sucking
antenna" sucks energy from the ZPE instead of from the toroidial inductor.

 
(Or perhaps I'm just insane again. The manic/depressive cycle is cycling.)


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 09:02:57 1999
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Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:55:53 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Allais effect news: tentatively looks positive(?)
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[snip]

>>
>>Up to now I can just say that there is a unconfirmed report that the 50m
>>Foucault
>>pendulum located at the Kremsmuenster abbey (Austria) showed a behaviour
>>like that
>>exibited by the Foucault pendulum located at Jassy University, Romania,
>>during the
>>solar eclipse of February 15, 1981.
>>
>>Recorded observations at Jassy University:
>>
>>http://www.knowledge.co.uk/frontiers/sf074/sf074a05.htm
>>
>>Observer
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>>> Forum: sci.astro
>>>> Thread: Eclipse gravity/foucault data ?
>>>> Message 2 of 60
>>
>>
>>Subject: Re: Eclipse gravity/foucault data ?
>>Date: 1999/08/26
>>Author: Jan
>>Panteltje <jan panteltje.demon.nl>
>>
>>
>>>Up to now I can just say that there is a unconfirmed report that the
>>>50m Foucault pendulum located at the Kremsmuenster abbey (Austria)
>>>showed a behaviour like that exibited by the Foucault pendulum located
>>>at Jassy University, Romania, during the solar eclipse of February 15,
>>>1981.
>>>
>>>Recorded observations at Jassy University:
>>
>>>http://www.knowledge.co.uk/frontiers/sf074/sf074a05.htm
>>
>>>Observer
>>
>>Data from that site shows:
>>
>>Time Period (sec)
>>
>>8:49     10.028
>>9:13     10.028
>>9:43     10.024
>>10:00    10.019
>>10:12    10.020
>>10:24    10.024
>>10:58    10.028
>>
>>This seems to confirm the theory that gravity is caused by fast particles
>>moving in straight lines in all directions. I thought these particles mihgt
>>originate in processes in (some?) stars. The data shows the period is
>>decreasing i.e. the gravity is reduced during the eclipse.
>
>***{This is backwards. Suppose that a pendulum is at one of the high points
>in its arc, and gravity begins to increase. Result: the average value of g
>will be higher when it reaches the bottom of its arc than would have been
>the case otherwise, and its velocity at that point will be higher. But as
>it continues into the rising half of its cycle, the continued increase in
>the value of g will cause the average value of g in that half of its cycle
>to be *even higher* than it was in the descending half. Result: the
>pendulum will come to a stop in less time than was required for it to
>attain maximum velocity (at the bottom of the arc). Thus as long as g
>continues to rise, the period of the pendulum will *decrease* not increase.
>
>Applying such an analysis to the data presented above, the implication is
>that gravity increased as the moon lined up with the sun, as is to be
>expected.

***{Huh? Did I say that? Gravitational force *from above* would have
increased, so the resultant force (toward the earth) would have decreased.
That seems rather surprising, since it would seem to imply that the period
of the pendulum ought to have increased. What am I missing here?

Hmm. If we have push gravity, and ultramundane corpuscles moving past the
sun from deep space are lensed by the moon, could the effect be large
enough to produce a moment when the push downward on the earth actually
*increased*? (In the net, the blocking effect of the moon would add to that
of the sun, but there might be a spot at the very center where the lensing
effect more than offset the blocking effect.) Could it be that this
experiment does distinguish between the push and pull theories after all?

I'm going to have to reflect on this for awhile. This may be a far more
important result than I originally thought. (I never believed GR, so that
aspect is trivial to me.)

--Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

>>
>>- Rick Monteverde
>>Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 09:28:08 1999
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Subject: Guy at KRI
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The guy at KRI's name is Dr. Xing-Zhe Zhao.

It is a bad idea to try to read Chinese in Japanese.

John Schnurer's Y to K joke was cute.

How the heck do you measure 400 amps? Must have been a heavy duty meter . .
. Mine don't go that high.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 09:40:36 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Security alert....
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Knuke no longer naive directs our attention to this web site:

>http://www.SaxInvestigations.com/

Good grief! The web site says:

Have you ever wondered these things about your boyfriend, girlfriend,
spouse, or children.......

* What are they doing all that time on the internet?? 

* Who are they really talking to?? 

* Why do they hide the screen everytime I walk in the room?? 

* What is in thier [sic] e-mail??? Who are they from?? And who are they
sent to? . . . 


Is this for real?!? These people cannot even spell "their" but they can
poke into my e-mail transmissions? It is hard to believe. Maybe I should
invest in one of these encoding packages for private e-mail.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 10:10:20 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Security alert....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990827123149.007a1850 pop.mindspring.com>
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Here are more amazing claims and outrageous quotes from SaxInvestigations.
They sound like illiterate morons who have never heard of the spell-check
feature, but their site (or I should say, "thier sight") includes a JAVA
applet which reads your hard disk drive directory, and one that reads your
fingerprint off the screen. They appear to function correctly. This is
disturbing. I am forwarding this information to the ACLU.

This is off-topic, but I find it astounding and important.

- Jed



More Advanced Investigative Services

At Sax Internet Investigations we also have the ability to obtain almost
all, if not all passwords on different applications and accounts. We can
record what is going on in the backround if the person you want
investigated has a microphone on thier computer. Another new capibility
[sic] of ours enables us to turn on the target computers web cam or digital
camera and record live or take still shots. Sax Internet Investigations
specializes in "Internet Spying." Using a series of remote administration
tools we find the information out that you want!! They won't be hiding
anything from you anymore!! 


System Security

Were you aware that the minute you log on the Internet or any other type of
network you are highly prone to "hackers" or other various security
breeches? [Breeches = ye olde fashioned trousers] 

Our experts are up-to-date on every latest exploit that comes out to
protect your computer! We use the most sophisticated and hi-tech methods
keeping your computer safe all times!!!


Basic Computer Maintenance and Y2k Preparation

Just like a car once you invest in a computer, it must be maintained. We
use various administration tools to keep your computer operating to peak
performance.


(On the "Contact Us" screen): Thank You for visiting our sight.


The JAVA applet below is able to scan fingerprints off the monitor of the
computer. It uses the same technology that a light pen uses. A light pen
pointed at a video monitor records coordinate positions by responding to
the light emitted from phosphors on the screen. . . .

[This applet actually seems to work, as far as I can tell.]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 10:35:42 1999
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Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 12:35:22 -0500
From: "Patrick V. Reavis" <preavis ro.com>
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Subject: Re: Security alert....
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Here are more amazing claims and outrageous quotes from SaxInvestigations.
> They sound like illiterate morons who have never heard of the spell-check
> feature, but their site (or I should say, "thier sight") includes a JAVA
> applet which reads your hard disk drive directory, and one that reads your
> fingerprint off the screen. They appear to function correctly. This is
> disturbing. I am forwarding this information to the ACLU.
>
>
> The JAVA applet below is able to scan fingerprints off the monitor of the
> computer. It uses the same technology that a light pen uses. A light pen
> pointed at a video monitor records coordinate positions by responding to
> the light emitted from phosphors on the screen. . . .
>
> [This applet actually seems to work, as far as I can tell.]

Jed,
I don't see how such an applet (crapplet?) could work.  A light pen has a
feed-back mechanism that uses a timing pulse to detect the pen's location on
the screen. As the scan line on the monitor traverses the screen, it does so in
a set pattern. The light pen records the pulse of the passing scan line. It
takes X amount of time for the scan line to reach any given point on the
screen, then the position is calculated by software.



--
Regards,
Patrick V. Reavis


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 10:45:45 1999
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Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 13:40:02 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Security alert....
References: <19990827155153234.AAA189 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <3.0.6.32.19990827130409.007a6100@pop.mindspring.com>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Here are more amazing claims and outrageous quotes from SaxInvestigations.

<snip>

Actually, they can probably do most of this.  Using BackOrifice,
NetBus or Backdoor-g hacker tools, you can even activate a remote
PC's microphone and eavesdrop on someone at home or office.  See:

http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/warn/backorifice.html

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 10:57:27 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <19990827155153234.AAA189 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <3.0.6.32.19990827130409.007a6100@pop.mindspring.com> <37C6CD72.67F914AD@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Security alert....
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 13:57:17 -0400
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>From Symantec site:

***********************************
Is Back Orifice a Threat?
Potentially, the tool can be used by an unscrupulous user (e.g., the
attacker) to compromise the security of a computer running Windows 95 or
Windows 98, for example, to steal secret documents, destroy data, etc.
However, the following are obstacles limiting the threat:

The server application must be installed on the target machine. This
requires the user of the machine to either deliberately install this
application or be tricked into doing so.
The attacker must know the IP address of the target machine. Although, the
attacker can use the client application to perform a search through a range
of IP addresses, this is infeasible if the attacker can not narrow the range
to a small subset because there are four billion possible IP addresses.
A firewall between the target machine and the attacker virtually makes it
impossible for the attacker to communicate with the target machine. Most
corporations have firewalls in place.
By following safe computing practices, for example, not downloading or
running applications from unknown sources, users can protect themselves from
the potential threat.

***********************************

I had no such application installed on my machine, yet saxinvestigator was
able to scan my HD.


Ed Wall
New Energy Research Laboratory
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822    fax:(603) 224-5975
ewall infinite-energy.com     www.infinite-energy.com



----- Original Message -----
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: Security alert....


> Jed Rothwell wrote:
> >
> > Here are more amazing claims and outrageous quotes from
SaxInvestigations.
>
> <snip>
>
> Actually, they can probably do most of this.  Using BackOrifice,
> NetBus or Backdoor-g hacker tools, you can even activate a remote
> PC's microphone and eavesdrop on someone at home or office.  See:
>
> http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/warn/backorifice.html
>
> Terry
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 11:18:38 1999
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Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 13:21:09 -0500
From: "Patrick V. Reavis" <preavis ro.com>
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References: <19990827155153234.AAA189 mail.lcia.com@lizard> <3.0.6.32.19990827130409.007a6100@pop.mindspring.com> <37C6CD72.67F914AD@bellsouth.net> <00a501bef0b5$9afd7040$26637dc7@computer>
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Ed Wall wrote:

> , for example, not downloading or
> running applications from unknown sources, users can protect themselves from
> the potential threat.
>
> ***********************************
>
> I had no such application installed on my machine, yet saxinvestigator was
> able to scan my HD.
>
> Ed Wall

Ed,
You've been had.  Saxinvestigator knows squat about your hard drive or its
contents.  The Javascript code that downloaded to your computer when you
accessed their (or thier) webpage is a well known and harmless trick.  It reads
your hard drive locally but does not transmit the data to them, it just displays
the contents on your screen.  It appears to be a sales  gimmick that increases
their credibility.  Go back to that page and click the button.  You'll see no
modem activity.



--
Regards,
Patrick V. Reavis


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 11:18:42 1999
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Subject: Re: Allais effect news: tentatively looks positive(?)
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 <199908270439.SM00217 [192.168.0.2]>
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>>>
>>>Data from that site shows:
>>>
>>>Time Period (sec)
>>>
>>>8:49     10.028
>>>9:13     10.028
>>>9:43     10.024
>>>10:00    10.019
>>>10:12    10.020
>>>10:24    10.024
>>>10:58    10.028
>>>
>>>This seems to confirm the theory that gravity is caused by fast particles
>>>moving in straight lines in all directions. I thought these particles mihgt
>>>originate in processes in (some?) stars. The data shows the period is
>>>decreasing i.e. the gravity is reduced during the eclipse.
>>
>>***{This is backwards.

>>Applying such an analysis to the data presented above, the implication is
>>that gravity increased as the moon lined up with the sun, as is to be
>>expected.
>
>***{Huh? Did I say that? Gravitational force *from above* would have
>increased, so the resultant force (toward the earth) would have decreased.
>That seems rather surprising, since it would seem to imply that the period
>of the pendulum ought to have increased. What am I missing here?
>

First of all, if the period decreased, the downward gravitational field
strength increased, (not decreased).  Second, as the moon moves into
totality, the change in gravitational potential should be trivial because
slightly before and slightly after totality, the moon is still virtually in
the identical location as far as gravitational calculations are concerned.
Third, the moon in perfect alignment would decrease the gravitational
potential, not increase it, according to both GR and Newtonian theories.
So the observed results are backwards compared to expectations.

Many people have proposed that gravity is due to a flux of particles moving
in straight lines in all directions.  the first was Le Sage in Newton's day
shortly after his "action at a distance" theory was proposed.  The math is
the same.  However, this type of model fails for many other reasons I won't
go into here.

If you work with a wave mechanical model for particles and for spacetime,
the above makes sense.  The reason, is because with such models you must
consider that spacetime is a structure of wave energy, and not some
incomprehensible "property" of the universe.  When you couple matter waves
to spacetime waves, you wind up with a unified theory that explains both GR
and QM phenomena from a single basis.  Thomson, Bjerknes, and FitzGerald
were working on such theories in the 1870's and on.  FitzGerald proposed
the model of a vortex sponge for spacetime and Thomson and Bjerknes studied
the notion that an electron was a spherical standing wave resonance in the
aether.  Coupling their two models together, you wind up with a unification
theory.

In such a theory, you must drive energy into the spacetime waves to keep
them buzzing so that they can keep the material particles buzzing.  ie, you
get nothing for free.  The source of that energy is in the mass to energy
conversion taking place inside of stars, where aether is emitted in bursts
that then re-enforce the spacetime buzzing locally, and, which emit brand
new "patches of empty space".  This emission of aether is what accelerates
the particles that partake in fusion reactions, not some magical QM
incomprehensible property of matter.  

The result is that you have space flowing out of the sun, which is observed
as a net red shift in C IV ions at the base of the coronal transition
region because you have the flow of space accelerating past the particle
resonances, and it is observed as a net blue shift of high ionization ions
at the top of the transition region as the aether flow encounters the
hydraulic jump in pressure associated with pushing the aether outward to
drive the expansion of the universe.  All galaxies and stars and indeed,
all exothermic reactions push the rest of the universe away, slightly.
This is the origin of the cosmological constant now known to be necessary
in cosmology based on studies of distant supernovae.

As for the gravitational effect, the sun basically "cools" the noise in
spacetime locally, and so we are pushed downward slightly less when exposed
to the solar emissions.  Gravity is the result of the noisy waves coming
from the distant universe that interfere with our resonances because they
are Doppler shifted relative to our local spacetime and cannot frequency
synchronize (the red shift of distant galaxies).  

Gravitation can most easily be understood by considering two ships on the
ocean, side by side, stationary in the water.  The wave action on the
exterior of their hulls is greater on the sides toward the open ocean than
it is on the sides of their hulls that point toward one another.  Hence,
they are pushed toward one another with a force that is greater than they
are pushed apart, due to attenuation of the incident wave energy.  That
push, is gravity.  We are pushed toward the earth because we, and the
earth, filter out noisy wave energy.  

There is no need to assume a flux of particles.  All you need is a flux of
wave energy and no net flow of medium.

this model fully explains the observations, as well as numerous
observations that you are not considering.

rt

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 11:30:31 1999
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Ed Wall wrote:
> 
> >From Symantec site:

<snip>

> I had no such application installed on my machine, yet saxinvestigator was
> able to scan my HD.
> 
> Ed Wall

No, they're not using BackOrifice to read your directory.

However, BackOrifice can be installed clandestinely on your
machine by appending it to an email attachment.

Never open attachments from anyone you don't know and trust.  

Terry
"Trust No One"

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 11:31:38 1999
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

>
>
> (On the "Contact Us" screen): Thank You for visiting our sight.
>
> The JAVA applet below is able to scan fingerprints off the monitor of the
> computer. It uses the same technology that a light pen uses. A light pen
> pointed at a video monitor records coordinate positions by responding to
> the light emitted from phosphors on the screen. . . .
>
> [This applet actually seems to work, as far as I can tell.]

Jed,
Did you notice that a fingerprint is pulled up even if you don't touch the
screen?  I pulled it up on different computers and the same print showed up
each time.  And it wasn't mine.


--
Regards,
Patrick V. Reavis


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 11:37:47 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Security alert....
In-Reply-To: <37C6D715.C459455B ro.com>
References: <19990827155153234.AAA189 mail.lcia.com@lizard>
 <3.0.6.32.19990827130409.007a6100 pop.mindspring.com>
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Regarding the applet that reads fingerprints, Patrick V. Reavis writes:

	I don't see how such an applet (crapplet?) could work.  A light
	pen has a feed-back mechanism that uses a timing pulse to detect
	the pen's location on the screen.

I do not see how it could work either, but I ran it and the image that
displayed on the screen a moment looked like my thumbprint. It only stayed
on the screen a few minutes so I might be wrong about that . . .  Try it
yourself. Go to their web page and select the "Restricted" page at the
bottom of the list. Maybe you should print your thumb on paper with ink out
first, so you can compare it to the screen display.


	You've been had.  Saxinvestigator knows squat about your hard
	drive or its contents.  The Javascript code that downloaded to
	your computer when you accessed their (or thier) webpage is a
	well known and harmless trick.  It reads your hard drive locally
	but does not transmit the data to them . . .

I do not think they claim that the data goes back to them in this case. I
think they are merely making the point that Javascripts can read hard
disks, and implying that the scripts could do a lot else, like transmit
back the data.


	Go back to that page and click the button.  You'll see no modem
	activity.

Can't. Modems don't have little red LEDs anymore, and I don't trust screen
icons. Sniff.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 11:44:57 1999
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Subject: Re: Security alert....
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Pat writes:

>Did you notice that a fingerprint is pulled up even if you don't touch the
>screen?  I pulled it up on different computers and the same print showed up
>each time.  And it wasn't mine.

Ah! A scientifical test. Who woulda thunk it? You must be a gentleman and a
scholar. Har, har. That's hilarious.

You know, I almost feel like paying these people to find out what, if
anything, they can steal from my computer. Probably their main skill is
stealing from people's wallets.

- Jed (holding his chair to keep from falling on the floor)

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References: <19990827155153234.AAA189 mail.lcia.com@lizard>
	 <3.0.6.32.19990827130409.007a6100 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <37C6CD72.67F914AD bellsouth.net>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

>
> I do not think they claim that the data goes back to them in this case. I
> think they are merely making the point that Javascripts can read hard
> disks, and implying that the scripts could do a lot else, like transmit
> back the data.
> - Jed

The button says," See what we found out about YOU already...click on this bar"
I take this to imply that they know the data.  I could be misinterpreting their
intent, but I suspect it's a way to get customers......paying customers that
is....



--
Regards,
Patrick V. Reavis


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Subject: Re: Energy-sucking antennas
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At 09:04 PM 8/27/1999 +1200, John Berry wrote:
>FOUR HUNDRED AMPS TO GROUND?!?!?!

>What measurements did you normally get from that CB antenna?

    Hmmm.  Let me backtrack a bit.  The house in question was fairly tall--three floors, basement, and attic, with the first floor five feet above grade, and eleven foot ceilings.  This meant that the base of the antenna, attached to a chimney was fifty-f
ive feet above ground level.  The house was sited on a small rise relative to the surrounding community, and the only thing at roof height within 15 miles was the town water tower.  So I knew when I put the antenna up that I was going to have to ground it
 very well to avoid lightning strikes.  I drilled a ten foot hole and put in a copper pipe.  I then put a cupful of salt in the pipe, tamped the earth around the pipe, etc.  I then measured the resistance between that ground and another spike ground ten f
eet away.  (Actually I measured conductance: 1200 Mhos.)  After the next thunderstorm blew through, I measured it again: 350 Mhos!  Hmmm.  The next day it was back over a thousand.  So I put an ammeter in the circut next time the weather was expected to g
et dicey

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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From: Dan Quickert <dequickert ucdavis.edu>
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Patrick Reavis wrote:

>Ed,
>You've been had.  Saxinvestigator knows squat about your hard drive or =
its
>contents.  The Javascript code that downloaded to your computer when =
you
[snip]

Had, spammed, and virtual-virused in one day! ;-) (virtual virus: =
"danger! danger! tell everyone!")

Aside from all the false claims, enough danger here comes from simply =
visiting their site. If they're half as tricky as they brag, they can be =
collecting some identification data; that leaves you open to attempts to =
compromise your system. I don't know about these particular characters, =
but would you want the people who wrote BackOrifice to know that you or =
your computer exist? Unless you're confident of your security, it's =
probably best to leave such websites alone - as in 'don't even go =
there'.

Dan Quickert

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Dan Quickert wrote:

>
> Aside from all the false claims, enough danger here comes from simply visiting their site. If they're half as tricky as they brag, they can be collecting some identification data; that leaves you open to attempts to compromise your system. I don't know 
about these particular characters, but would you want the people who wrote BackOrifice to know that you or your computer exist? Unless you're confident of your security, it's probably best to leave such websites alone - as in 'don't even go there'.

Did ya notice that they also have a mass e-mail service?  Maybe they got all of our addresses, or maybe not.....

--
Regards,
Patrick V. Reavis


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 12:19:26 1999
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Energy-sucking antennas
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(Continued, sorry about that.)

    This was no toy ammeter, it was the kind with different shunts for different ranges, and I started out with the highest reading scale: 1000 Amps.  Wooden case, insulated #6 gage copper leads, all sitting on the wooden enclosed porch with a fairly heft
y impedence in the circut (hefty in this case: about 20 pounds), and a 1/2" spark gap out at the ground stake just in case.  With the meter reading 400A more or less steady state, I went outside and used a wooden stick to push the ground wire against the 
return lead and let them weld themselves together.  At this point the oncomming storm was still two to threee miles away.  The next day I replaced the ground wire with a much heavier one, and my mother just kept complaining about what the salt I put in wa
s doing to the grass.  (Of course it had nothing to do with the salt.  The current was baking the ground around the spike.)

    As to voltage, space charge voltages of 1 kV per foot are fairly common, and 10 kV/foot not unheard of.  I don't think I could get 400*1000*50=20 MW out of that antenna, but numbers higher than that have been achieved in other experiments.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 12:33:51 1999
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Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:21:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Re: Security alert....
In-reply-to: <37C6D715.C459455B ro.com>
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Pat,

Your missing the point, if you have Javascripts enabled on your browser 
then you are running a program.  A program can do anything a programmer is 
smart enough to tell your computer how to do.  Anything the computer is 
capable of a program can make it do it.  Just because they choose not to 
doesn't mean they can't.

If your sound card has a microphone attached it is a program that lets you 
use it when you intentionally want to.  There is no reason a different 
program can't make it work as well, without telling you.

You wouldn't even necessarily see anything on the screen for a program to 
be running in the background slowly going through your files looking for 
redefined information like the control files for popular financial programs 
like Quicken or MS Money.  The control files point to your personally named 
data files, which have interesting things like bank and credit account 
numbers.  Or how about your tax program files.

If your checkbook program can open it's own files, so can another program.

If you have something you don't want someone else to have access to, keep 
it on a floppy or a zip disk, and then don't have that disk in the machine 
when you are logged on to the internet.  Or get a separate computer that is 
not internet/modem/network capable for sensitive work.  I've worked at a 
number of client sites that don't allow the internet onto the building's 
computer network.

Symantic makes the assertion that someone cannot read your IP address,
well try this:

http://byamerican.com/cgi-bin/showme.cgi

About the 5th item down is YOUR IP address labeled "REMOTE_ADDR".

And I wouldn't be overly concerned about a sites poor grammar or spelling 
skills.  If you have been reading this list very long you would have 
noticed that many highly capable technical people don't have the most 
polished written communications. 

Bill

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 13:00:22 1999
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Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 wrote:

> Pat,
>
> Your missing the point, if you have Javascripts enabled on your browser
> then you are running a program.  A program can do anything a programmer is
> smart enough to tell your computer how to do.  Anything the computer is
> capable of a program can make it do it.  Just because they choose not to
> doesn't mean they can't.
>

Bill,
I was aware that javascript could do interesting and fun things, but I didn't
know that they could invoke other programs.
I guess that's why I'm not a programmer, just a techno-geek ;)
I vow to be more careful....Thanks.




--
Regards,
Patrick V. Reavis


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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Security alert....
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Bill writes:

>Symantic makes the assertion that someone cannot read your IP address,
>well try this:
>
>http://byamerican.com/cgi-bin/showme.cgi
>
>About the 5th item down is YOUR IP address labeled "REMOTE_ADDR".

The IP changes every time you connect with a dial up service. With a cable
connection it is permanent, though, and the computer is on line all day.
Scary.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 14:12:20 1999
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Vo,

This may have been posted previously, but I just came across it now.  =
It's an NSF sponsored educational site.

 http://jas2.eng.buffalo.edu/applets/index.html

Ed Wall
New Energy Research Laboratory
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822    fax:(603) 224-5975
ewall infinite-energy.com     www.infinite-energy.com
=20

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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Vo,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>This may have been posted previously, but I just =
came across=20
it now.&nbsp; It's an NSF sponsored educational site.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><BR>&nbsp;<A=20
href=3D"http://jas2.eng.buffalo.edu/applets/index.html">http://jas2.eng.b=
uffalo.edu/applets/index.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><BR>Ed Wall<BR>New Energy Research =
Laboratory<BR>Cold Fusion=20
Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816<BR>(603)=20
226-4822&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; fax:(603) 224-5975<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:ewall infinite-energy.com">ewall@infinite-energy.com</A>&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.infinite-energy.com">www.infinite-energy.com</A><BR>&n=
bsp;</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 14:25:55 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Security alert....
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 17:26:35 -0400
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Several points, when I accessed the site, my browser had all the Java stuff
"turned off".  It still accessed my hard drive.  The blinking red lights (I
still have a modem that has them) only separates the amateurs from the pros,
or maybe I should say the "software only" hackers from the "hardware and
software" hackers.  Obviously, if they can control the monitor at that
level, and the camera, microphone, and speakers (if you have those
installed), then they are the "hardware and software" variety hackers.  This
means that they can also access your machine using the phone lines and
bypass or control the red lights on your modem (Hacking 101).  The
thumbprints on your screen may be from someone else in your house, they
don't have to match yours to be there.  A good experiment might be to clean
your screen and try it.

Back in the late 60's there were phone phreaks that built "black boxes" that
could be used to monitor the conversations of people anywhere, anytime. They
even worked when the phone was on the hook.  Most of the people who built
them were eventually found out and hired by governments and corporations.
This sort of thing has been going on for ages.  Large corporations,
militaries, and governments have been the traditional users of this sort of
technology, and it has always been more or less considered a trade secret of
the upper management levels (controller types).  It was always something
that was always just "understood", and not talked about in polite company -
kind of like sex.

What is "astounding and important" to me is that the ability to do this sort
of thing has finally filtered down to people for very little cost, or even
for free in many cases.  I've observed that people spying on their friends,
neighbors, competitors, etc., has become sort of a national hobby.  Another
hobby that I see as a natural extension of the first one, and one that is
becoming more widely known about is the hobby of hypnosis or memetic
engineering.

In the walled, gated, and security camera monitored community called The
Villages, where I presently exist, classes on hypnosis are given every week
by an employee of The Developer to the Resident/Prisoners to show them how
to memetically program the people who are outside of the Intended Community
of retired, predominantly (99.999%) white, middle class, protestant, former
military personnel of medium rank, and their female breeder adjuncts.  The
demographic or profile seems so remarkably consistent that upon first
observation, one would almost have to wonder how such an amazing coincidence
could take place, until one actually read the fine print written into
property sale agreements and covenants drawn-up by The Developer and his
banking partners' attorneys.  They all seem to really go for this sort of
thing down here, too. :)  I guess it makes them feel more secure.

The increasingly widepread dissemmination and use of the combined
technologies of privacy invasion and memetic engineering, tend to
counter-act the cultural misunderstandings and group thought patterns
created by the poor use of language and icons by management, government,
military, religious, and marketing idiots who have created the very weird
global social environment that exists today.  It's sort of an example of
Tower of Babel Technology at its best.  Eventually, everyone with a brain
figures it out and uses it to do what they want, within reason, hopefully,
and with the knowledge that whatever goes around usually comes right back
around.

BCNU!  )

Knuke



 

 
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 14:27:38 1999
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>The IP changes every time you connect with a dial up service. With a cable
>connection it is permanent, though, and the computer is on line all day.
>Scary.
>
>- Jed

Check out Bill's archive service.  The chat feature tells you and everyone
else what your and their IP is.  I used to use a program called IP Radar
that would alert me when someone was on my unique, changable IP (actually
caught a couple of people, too), but quit using it when I found some people
that could bypass the IP system altogether with the right know-how.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 15:29:29 1999
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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199908272228.RAA03763 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Security alert....
In-Reply-To: <E2198ZYBQM5XMK*/R=ODNVMS/R=A1/U=MH2_BRIGGS/ MHS> from Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 at "Aug 27, 99 02:21:41 pm"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 17:28:00 -0500 (CDT)
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> Your missing the point, if you have Javascripts enabled on your browser 
> then you are running a program.  A program can do anything a programmer is 
> smart enough to tell your computer how to do.  Anything the computer is 
> capable of a program can make it do it.  Just because they choose not to 
> doesn't mean they can't.

Java variations were actually engineered with security issues in mind,
and so the available commands are limited in what they can be
commanded to do -- although that's not to say there are no unforeseen
loopholes.

> Symantic makes the assertion that someone cannot read your IP address,

Errr, it is a necessity of internet communication that the other end
know your IP address, so it is a necessity that each packet you send
out necessarily has your IP return address.  And every incoming
IP packet also has your IP address as its destination.

The exception to the above is if you're behing a NAT, in which
case your internal IP address is translated to a different IP+Port#.
This is useful for IP connection sharing, and is now supported
by Windows 98 Second Edition, and several vendors, most notably
the SyGate product.  NAT hides the source of the computer in your
internal network, but it still must supply the IP address of your
gateway computer. Otherwise communication is impossible.


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 15:36:29 1999
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Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 18:25:51 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: New OOP [Optimal Operating Point] Paper
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  Dear Vorts, and colleagues interested in 
 Optimal operating points (OOP) and cold fusion:
  
  Although "FURTHER CONFIRMATION OF OPTIMAL 
OPERATING POINT BEHAVIOR" is no longer available at this time
     -- thank you for your comments --
another is.  The paper was given today at the 
INE-99 Symposium on New Energy, Salt Lake City, Utah 
August 27-28, 1999

 IMPORTANCE OF NON-DIMENSIONAL NUMBERS IN COLD FUSION 
 Mitchell Swartz(1), Gayle Verner(1), Alex Frank(1), Hal Fox(2) 
         1 - JET  ENERGY TECHNOLOGY, Inc. 
         2 - Trenergy 

 Because of the feedback previously, and the general interest,
the near final draft manuscript of that paper is 
available to vorts who have an interest in cold fusion
and why there was irreproducibility, and/or how analysis of
the electrical input power phase space in which these systems 
are driven may help some of these systems which use active 
materials, and sufficient loading.  This is a continuation of 
what was presented at ICCF7; a continuation of the previous
OOP thread and paper, now expanded with more corroborating 
data, and info.

 1)  Those individuals on the OOP thread will get the URL
and do not need to request it, or read further.

 2)  This my first attempt at pdf, so please
let me know if there are problems.  All the
free software required (if any) is available
at the URL.

 3) If interested and NOT on the OOP thread,
please send email back with this header, 
and the URL (or a zip file) will be returned
where the assembled page is up for comments, feedback, 
criticism, suggestions prior to final publication
in the INE Proceedings.

  Best wishes.
      Mitchell Swartz


   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 16:20:13 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
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Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 16:18:39 -0700
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Jed
	You use an ammeter shunt, with a low reading voltmeter across it.
This is how I read the 800 A in my car.
Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Jed Rothwell[SMTP:JedRothwell infinite-energy.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Friday, August 27, 1999 9:23 AM
> To: 	vortex-L eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Guy at KRI
> 
> The guy at KRI's name is Dr. Xing-Zhe Zhao.
> 
> It is a bad idea to try to read Chinese in Japanese.
> 
> John Schnurer's Y to K joke was cute.
> 
> How the heck do you measure 400 amps? Must have been a heavy duty meter .
> .
> . Mine don't go that high.
> 
> - Jed
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 16:35:09 1999
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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Energy-sucking antennas
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 16:32:14 -0700
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If have heard, but cannot ive a reference that people have been killed on
mountain tops due to nearby lightning strikes because they were standing
with their feet far apart. They were not "hit" by lightning, they were
electrocuted by the voltage gradient and wet feet.

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Robert I. Eachus[SMTP:eachus mitre.org]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Friday, August 27, 1999 12:18 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Cc: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: Energy-sucking antennas
> 
> (Continued, sorry about that.)
> 
>     This was no toy ammeter, it was the kind with different shunts for
> different ranges, and I started out with the highest reading scale: 1000
> Amps.  Wooden case, insulated #6 gage copper leads, all sitting on the
> wooden enclosed porch with a fairly hefty impedence in the circut (hefty
> in this case: about 20 pounds), and a 1/2" spark gap out at the ground
> stake just in case.  With the meter reading 400A more or less steady
> state, I went outside and used a wooden stick to push the ground wire
> against the return lead and let them weld themselves together.  At this
> point the oncomming storm was still two to threee miles away.  The next
> day I replaced the ground wire with a much heavier one, and my mother just
> kept complaining about what the salt I put in was doing to the grass.  (Of
> course it had nothing to do with the salt.  The current was baking the
> ground around the spike.)
> 
>     As to voltage, space charge voltages of 1 kV per foot are fairly
> common, and 10 kV/foot not unheard of.  I don't think I could get
> 400*1000*50=20 MW out of that antenna, but numbers higher than that have
> been achieved in other experiments.
> 
>                                         Robert I. Eachus
> 
> with Standard_Disclaimer;
> use  Standard_Disclaimer;
> function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 17:00:16 1999
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Subject: What's New for Aug 27, 1999

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 27 Aug 99   Washington, DC

1. DEVOLUTION: WILL NO ONE STAND UP FOR DARWIN?  True vertebrate
fossils first appear in the Middle Ordovician some 500 million
years ago.  It's not clear just when the spine began to disappear
among presidential wannabes, but little trace seems to remain.
Last week, when WN asked Gore's campaign office for his reaction
to the Kansas School Board action, his spokesperson dodged behind
local control (WN 20 Aug 99).  This week, Reuters posed the same
question: "The Vice President favors the teaching of evolution in
public schools," a spokesperson replied.  He should have stopped
there.  "Obviously that decision should and will be made at the
local level, and localities should be free to teach creationism
as well."  Gasp!  The Supreme Court ruled that unconstitutional
in 1987.  Informed of that, the spokesperson called Reuters
several hours later with a clarification, "The Vice President
supports the right of school boards to teach creationism within
the context of religious courses and not science courses." 

2. SPY HYSTERIA: THE CASE AGAINST WEN HO LEE APPEARS TO COLLAPSE. 
On Monday, Notra Trulock, who triggered the investigation into 
suspected Chinese espionage, resigned amid charges that ethnicity
led to his singling out of Lee.  It has been clear for weeks that
there was insufficient evidence to charge Lee with espionage, now
it seems unlikely that he will be charged even with mishandling
classified information, particularly since the government has
decided not to prosecute former CIA director John Deutch for
similar violations.  Meanwhile, the Society of Professional
Scientists and Engineers, a 26-year old employee organization at
Lawrence Livermore, has called for reexamination of the decision
to impose widespread polygraph testing <http://www.spse.org>.

3. BUDGET: ACADEMIC PORK GOES UP AS SCIENCE BUDGET GOES DOWN. 
What is going on in the House of Representatives?  As former APS
President D. Allan Bromley pointed out in a Washington Post op-ed
on Thursday, House appropriators have slashed NASA science $678M;
science at DOE is cut by $116M; and the NSF budget is $275M below
the president's request.  As if that weren't enough, a front page
story in the New York Times on Tuesday, picking up on a WN story
(WN 6 Aug 99), points out that a lot of what remains is earmarked
for projects in the home districts of the appropriators without
benefit of proposal submission or peer review. 

4. CHANDRA: X-RAY TELESCOPE SENDS BACK ITS FIRST IMAGES!  Amidst
all the gloomy news of budget cuts and human foolishness, NASA
released the glorious first image from Chandra.  The picture of
Cassiopeia A supernova remnants may show not only that Chandra
works, but also the long-sought compact mass at the center.  As a
measure of confidence, Chandra is in a highly elliptical orbit to
avoid radiation from the magnetosphere and cannot be serviced. 
Chandra images are posted at <http://www.chandra.nasa.gov>.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

--------------01705D5AA49B0CAC9A24B91B--

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Jed,

You pointed out that experimenters aren't obliged to offer theoretical 
explanations for their findings.  Nevertheless, it helps a lot to have an 
explanation, and the simpler the better.  The question, "Why are there 
transmutations all over the periodic table, but no radioactive ones?" is a 
tough one to handle.  

I suspect that's why few people want to look at Ohmori's samples.  It's not 
that he got the isotope ratios wrong, it's just that people figure the odds 
in favor of an artifact as the eventual explanation are too high for them to 
bother with it.  That's also true for excess heat, but I think the problem is 
much worse for transmutations.

Miley's NERI grant application speaks of "encouraging but uncertain" results 
(3rd parag.)  As far as I know, they still aren't good enough for publication 
in the peer-reviewed literature.  I think that's what he wants the grant for.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 27 17:01:07 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 19:57:56 EDT
Subject: RE: Energy-sucking antennas
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In a post dated Thu, 26 Aug 1999 16:52:05 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote that 
he keeps thinking "that someone will finally get around to using the space 
charge effect to supply power."  He pointed out that one has to store an 
awful lot of power, and store it quickly, in a matter of minutes at best.

Are there any batteries that can store power quickly?

BLP claims to have identified a compound from which a 10-kg super-battery 
could be made that would produce up to 150 hp and last for 1000 miles in a 
car, but I don't know how fast they think the battery would charge.

Tom Stolper

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Subject: Re: Energy-sucking antennas
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Tom -

> Are there any batteries that can store power quickly?

Flywheels, pumped water reservoirs...

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 28 10:06:19 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Atmospheric Production of Light Lepton Pairs
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 11:02:36 -0700
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Sorry to belabor the point, but, there has to be production of Light Lepton
Pairs (+/-q) from ~ 0.40  ev (3.1 Micron) Infrared Photons resulting  in
particles with a mass ~ = 0.20 ev/0.510 Mev wrt the electron energy/mass.

Since Mrel = Mo[(E/Eo) + 1] even  in a 0.2 volt electric field their
relativistic
mass Mrel will be 2*Mo and the velocity will be 0.87*c
(Mrel = Mo/(1-v^2/c^2)^1/2 or a "gamma of  2.0.

Given the Infrared absorption properties of Water Vapor and CO2 (N2 and O2
are
essentially transparent to all Infrared wavelengths) there should be lots of
LL Pairs produced over water and highly vegetated land areas. IOW a drought
is self perpetuating.

WRT. F&P and other ou cells that contain water/water vapor and CO2, there
should be
plenty of 0.4 ev (3.1 Micron) IR photon pair progenitors produced at the
electrodes.

Once formed the pairs can form "hydrinos" and  "electrinos", etc., and
participate in the ou/CF effects.

Regards,      Frederick

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Subject: Toroidial transformers with fractional turns?!!!
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ON THE POSSIBILITY THAT KNOWN PHENOMENA REGARDING THE
ELECTROMAGNETIC NEARFIELD CONTAINS A BLATANT VIOLATION OF
FUNDAMENTAL LAWS OF PHYSICS

William J. Beaty   8/28/99

I've always had a niggling suspicion that toroidial transformers are
far more weird than anyone suspects.  If we wind ourselves a toroidial
(donut) inductor and plug it into a 120VAC wall plug, the device in
theory won't draw any flow of energy.  However, if we then wind a 1-turn

secondary "coil" around the donut (through its hole) and short out this
"coil",  a huge amperage appears in the wire, the coil grows red hot,
and many hundreds of watts are drawn from the donut inductor and from
the wall outlet.

Why is this weird?  After all, it's just the way that normal
transformers
work.  But think for a moment.  In donut-inductors, the magnetic
field-lines
from each turn of wire extend over to the area enclosed by the next turn

of wire, and as a result the magnetic field connects in a circle, and no

field extends past the surface of the donut.   Yet the secondary coil is

entirely *outside* the donut, and therefor the magnetic flux never
touches
it.  The question arises: how does the magnetic field inside the donut-
inductor create a current in the secondary coil if no magnetic flux
touches
the secondary coil?  Electronics students always ask this question.  The

answer in the past has always been that it is simply a law of physics.

My suspicion that the above effect might hide profound mysteries is
greatly
amplified by the fact that mainstream scientists aren't intrigued by
this
effect.  They essentially have unilaterally DECLARED IT TO BE
UNINTERESTING.
This is a strange position for a scientist to take.  If something is
strange
and not quite explicable, wouldn't it stimulate their curiousity?
Instead
it does the opposite!  I see that this is very common in modern
science.  It
is a sort of hidden sickness that penetrates every facet of science, and

twists it into something that is entirely different than what scientists

believe it to be.  The same "sickess" once caused scientists to declare
"electricity" to be entirely separate from "magnetism" until a high
school
science teacher accidentally placed a compass next to a wire during a
classroom demonstration, thus proving that the earlier declaration was
a fantasy based upon arrogance rather than a learned conclusion based
upon experimentation.  Up until recently the same "sickness" caused
contemporary physicists to dismiss the vector potential in Maxwell's
equations as being an unimportant, mathematical abstraction and this
situation held for many decades until Bohm/Anarohov showed that Vector
Potential had an important and unmistakable impact upon the everyday
world.

The field around a donut-inductor acts as if it cannot be shielded.  If
we try to place a metal shield between the primary and secondary of the
donut-transformer, this simply creates another "shorted secondary
winding"
on the transformer.  The shield becomes hot and draws an additional
energy-
flow from the wall plug, but as long as the resistance of the windings
is
low, it won't stop our original secondary from drawing its own,
independant
energy flow.  The "voltage circles" surrounding a donut-transformer are
apparantly unshieldable.

This might be "weird", but unless we can take the phenomena apart and
analyze
it, we can make no headway.  For example, can we remove the
transformer's
secondary coil to a great distance from the primary? Yes, but only if we
make
the entire donut-inductor larger, since the secondary must still thread
through
the "hole in the donut".  If we do this, we have not "taken it apart" at
all,
because it still remains as a functioning transformer.  If only we could

unwind the secondary partially, and see what happens when we induce
voltage in
half of a turn, rather than in a single complete turn or in an integer
number
of complete turns.  If our transformer only has a half-turn as its
secondary
coil, won't it behave quite differently than a conventional
transformer?  But
unfortunately a fractional-turn in a transformer winding is impossible.

Also I've always wondered if the energy-flow between primary and
secondary
of a transformer is instantaneous or if it obeys the speed of light.  It

seems as if there's no way to test this, because if we make the
transformer
bigger, we must lower the operating frequency so that the secondary coil
stays
within the "nearfield" region.  We also must stick to a low frequency,
otherwise
the whole transformer will start acting like a conventional radio
antenna, and
we'll no longer be analyzing a transformer, we'll be analyzing a radio
transmitter
which broadcasts to a distant "loop antenna" (the secondary coil becomes
this
"loop antenna.")

This problem remained stuck in my mind since high school.  Why did I not
just
drop it and get on with things, like all the rest of science apparantly
has
done?  I did not, because I take intuition seriously.  My intuition has
led
me into many facinating places.  Conventional science seems publicly to
regard
the intuition as irrational and therefor nonexistant (this though many
scientists *individually* take their intuitions seriously).  My
intuition led
me to do the opposite of modern science: assume that "inexplicable
phenomena"
are fiercely important, rather than to assume that they are embarassing
mistakes
and crackpottery which must be disparaged.  My intuition led me to take
the
"crackpot physics underground" extremely seriously, to follow BBSs like
Decker's KEELYNET for years, and to provide several internet forums and
a large
website dedicated to the "dark underbelly" of science which most
scientists
prefer would just go away.  My intuition led me to study at the feet of
Tesla,
rather than regarding him as some sort of crackpot/fraud who claimed to
have
really invented radio, and who thought that he could transmit megawatts
across
thousands of miles without wires.

The key to the mystery of the toroidial transformer is in the Nikola
Tesla
concepts.  If you *know* that Tesla was a crackpot, you might as well
just
stop reading right now, because the rest of my paper is just a waste of
reading time.

Tesla's energy-transfer system was based on huge tesla coils, but it was

also based upon a strange little device: a tiny coil/capacitor device
which can reach out and intercept vast flows of energy even though it is

far, far smaller than the wavelength of the radio waves which Tesla was
broadcasting.  (See ENERGY-SUCKING ANTENNAS for more info:
http://www.amasci.com/tesla/tesceive.html).  These energy-receiver
devices
are not unknown to modern science.  They explain how atoms can intercept

light waves even though atoms are thousands of times too small to behave

as efficient radio antennas.  (See the papers by Chris Bohren
Spaniol/Sutton,
and others in the references of tesceive.html.)

There's something weird about these papers.  They imply that atoms are
surrounded by a vibrating "nearfield EM" field.  In my experience such
a field is not taken seriously by modern physics.  I've never heard
about it in all my reading.  After all, atoms supposedly emit and absorb

photon-particles, they don't spew out EM fields when no photons are
being emitted or absorbed.  Yet if these fields are real, they should
connect with many other phenomena in physics.  These "energy sucking"
fields appear to be a hole in physics which *may* lead to amazing new
realms of research.

They do lead to one thing:  an interesting device which may simply be
an exotic sort of transformer, and which might let us do some
interesting
investigations of the physics of the toroidial inductor, but which also
might be a way to directly tap into the infamous Zero Point Energy field

of empty space and light lightbulbs, run motors, etc.

Build yourself a capacitive-mode "energy sucking antenna" (the kind that

has an electrically-small dipole antenna connected to an RLC resonant
circuit of extremely high Q-factor).  Place it near a toroidial
inductor.
Power the inductor with AC (perhaps the frequency should be high?)
The frequency of the RLC tuned circuit must match the frequency of the
AC drive of the donut-inductor.  Align the short dipole antenna so that
it acts like a sort of "fractional turn" surrounding the toroidial
inductor.
Measure the energy flow going into the donut and coming out of the tuned

circuit.  Move the dipole antenna so it is no longer within the
nearfield
region surrounding the donut-inductor.  I suspect that the output
wattage
will not match the input, and that excess energy comes out of the
device.

Obviously this blatently violates Conservation of Energy.  Not only
that,
it also violates the spirit of Newton's laws themselves, because the
donut
inductor "acts upon" the tuned circuit, yet the tuned circuit cannot
return
the favor.  A tail-chasing effect would arise, somewhat like the
electrical
equivalent of an "Inertialess spaceship drive", and energy would
apparantly
come from nowhere.

According to conventional transformer theory, the fields outside the
donut-
coil should drive the short dipole, the dipole should store energy in
the
tuned circuit, this oscillating energy should build up continuously, and

an intense e-field should appear on the dipole antenna.  Because of the
"Energy-sucking Antenna" effect, this e-field should grab quite a large
hunk of energy-flow from the donut inductor.  If my suspicions are
right,
then the donut inductor won't be affected: it won't supply energy to the

tuned circuit.

This is flat out impossible.

But as the saying goes, "If it happens, it must be possible."   :)

If there is an energy gain, then probably we can wind a small
pickup-coil
onto the inductor of the tuned circuit, then connect the terminals of
the
donut-coil to this small pickup-coil instead of to the high-frequency
generator.  This will form a so-called "stand-alone closed-loop free
energy device."  Without some sort of governor mechnism such as some
back-
to-back Zener diodes connected across the tuned circuit,  the ZPE energy

would build up within fractions of a second and cause a piece of the
wire
to melt (or perhaps the whole device would vanish in an immense flash
and
a clould of green copper-oxide smoke.)

Shades of Robert Heinlein!  Didn't he write a couple of stories about
just
this device?  I think one was called "Brown Shoes".  There was also
another
one about a shipload of soldiers who landed on a planet where this
device
had been discovered, and the soldiers immediately muntiny against their
"evil" commander and go off into the country to live as they want,
independant
of any need for fuel and the political networks which control people by
keeping
them dependant upon that fuel.

The above "donut inductor" effect has not been tested.  The WHY the hell
am I
rambling on like this?  It's all just speculation!  Yes.  I haven't even
done
any MATH on this device.  Why am I so excited?  Simple: its my
intuition.
My intuition screams maniacally that this is the key that unlocks
EVERYTHING.
It says that the "hole in physics" can tear open, unleashing a vast
torrent
which will change the world overnight.  It says the things that all the
crackpots
are famous for saying: Einstein was wrong, Quantum Mechanics is not what
it seems,
electromagnetic fields have existence independant of photons, fluid
vortices (by
electromagnetic analogy) provide energy and allow airplanes to fly
without motors,
Tesla was right, and modern physics is on a dead-end path which resulted
from a
misstep that occured many, many years ago.  But crackpots have ALWAYS
been saying
this!  Not me.  I have not been saying it, I've only been listening to
the people
who do, and I've been hoping that one of them would give some actual
evidence to
support their ideas.   I only started "spouting the crackpot line" after
seeing
the missing puzzle-piece snap into place and the entire "mechanism" of
the "puzzle"
suddenly light up and start to function.

On the off chance that this device is REAL, I decided to add a bunch of
peripheral
stuff to this paper.  Should the device actually work, this paper will
become
famous, and I can use it for "advertizing".    Paranoid delusions of
grandeaur?
Perhaps!  :)  But remember, I'm still saying that the effect is
untested, that only
my intuition is going wild about it, and I acknowledge that my rational
western
side does not know what to make of all of this.  My Western Self it
sitting back
and being greatly entertained.   :)

If the above device works, then the next step is to...  start my own
"religion!"  :)
I've always wanted one of my own to play with.  :)  If this device is
real, it
shows that the several odd philosophical techniques which I've been
using to
run my life are entirely valid, and ANYONE could have made this
discovery if
they had decided to stop strutting around like ego-enflated fools and
instead
just sit down and concentrate on learning how to take the "blinders" off
and
actually gaze past themselves and see the rest of the world.

Perhaps the world is safe from change and I am just crazy.  I have news
for you.
*ALL* crazy people are visionaries.  They see strange things which no
one else
can see.  We in the western world despize our visionaries.  They are
embarassing,
but much worse, they often tell us things which we simply cannot stand
to hear.
We declare them to be incompetent, and the visionaries themselves come
to believe
the same, which effectively silences their embarassing voices.  If
someone calls
me crazy, I thank them for the compliment. Uh oh, I think I myself hear
the
men in white coats at the door!  :)    Better send this out before I
realize
that I'm just insane, that none of this could possibly be real, and that
I need
to get a bit more sleep and to stop damaging my credibibility in front
of thousands
of strangers by talking excitedly about shamefully crazy stuff.   And
then delete
it instead of sending it.

Who's going to be the first to test this?  Not me, I'm on vacation and
don't have
access to any equipment.  Only a fool would waste time testing such a
crazy idea,
so I'll probably have to volunteer to be that fool.   Either it will
work or it
will not (or perhaps it is real, but as with "Cold Fusion," the first
few experiments
will be flawed and the phenomenon will not express itself until far more
work is
done.)  If nobody makes any fantastic discoveries before I get back,
I'll start
messing with it.  My "self" doesn't have any good reason to judge that
this
phenomeon is real.  It's only my subconscious which is almost going off
the
deep end with excited yammering.

If somebody DOES take this seriously and start playing with it, and if
there
is nothing unexpected hidden here, then I'll just have to blame them for

taking seriously the ravings of crackpots on the internet.  And then
pull a
"Rosanne Rosannadanna" and say...     "never mind."

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) )
)))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST
website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird
science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L
webhead-L


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 28 13:34:19 1999
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Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 14:56:49 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Speed of Gravity
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>...
>>John Winterflood wrote:
>>>...
>>>After all two point
>>>masses in orbit around each other is about the simplest GR problem
>>>imaginable!  So I asked around and ended up emailing Tibault Damour
>>>who is one of, if not _the_ world expert on the area.
>>
>>***{In my view, a person's credibility on a topic depends on the arguments
>>he uses to support his view of that topic, and on nothing else whatever.
>>Thus, properly, you would have to extract from this fellow a specific line
>>of reasoning that refuted van Flandern's position, in order to justify
>>treating him as more "expert" than van Flandern. --Mitchell Jones}***
>
>This fellow has already had "extracted from him", many times over, in
>the form of referreed (ie checked by the most qualified people in the
>world

***{The typical referee is a conformist who obtained his "credentials" by
memorizing whatever his "teachers" told him to memorize, whether it made
sense or not, and whose professional research has been carefully positioned
in the noncontroversial mainstream of scientific thought. To get a research
paper past such people, every hint of intellectual independence must be
expunged from it. That's why I consider lots of peer reviewed, mainstream
publications to be a black mark, not a recommendation. --Mitchell Jones}***

 ), journal articles, these very lines of reasoning that you want

***{The line of reasoning that is needed (by persons such as yourself) is
one that demonstrates a flaw in the extremely simple, ironclad logic first
brought forward by Laplace--to wit: the argument demonstrating that the
Earth could not have remained in its orbit for more than 4 billion years,
given that lightspeed gravity would produce a tangential force that would
have hurled it out of its orbit in roughly a million years. Since Tibault
Damour informed you that he was unfamiliar with such reasoning, it follows
that he could not possibly have produced a paper that dissected and refuted
it. The fact that he is a "big name" physicist, or that the reasoning
strikes him as false, is simply irrelevant. --Mitchell Jones}***

>If I have not gone to the trouble of looking up and reading through
>one of them, I am not about to expect him to churn out a personalised
>version for every idiot that happens to find out his email address.

***{Then why waste our time by invoking his holy name? --MJ}***

>>***{All of which is irrelevant to the present question--which is: what
>>specific flaw, if any, is present in the Laplace argument? ...
>
>Laplace doesn't even consider the "linear extrapolation" idea that
>electromagnetism illustrates.  I believe this was first and best
>brought out by Feynman (probably in volume 2 of lectures in physics)
>and is rather well proved experimentally as being the way
>electromagnetism actually works.  The idea is that the field
>"felt" by a charged particle due to another charged particle in
>linear motion, is identical with the field that would be present
>if it was propagated instantaneously - even though it is actually
>from the retarded position and time and propagated at speed c.

***{Reference to the Coulomb force exerted by one charged particle on
another is useless here, because the same logic which demonstrates that
lightspeed gravity is impossible also demonstrates that a lightspeed
Coulomb force is impossible. The reason: if the attractive force of a
nucleus moved outward at lightspeed, then the very same tangential force
that would hurl the Earth out of its orbit would also hurl electrons out of
their orbits. Thus by bringing up this example, you do not help your case;
you merely bring forth the paradox in a different form. Laplace's reasoning
implies that the Coulomb force, like the force of gravity, must move
through space at many millions of times the speed of light.

Nothing in the above, of course, is intended to deny that electric current
propagates at the speed of light. The reason: we must distinguish between
the acceleration of an electron by the Coulomb force, and the acceleration
of an electron by means of the impact of a photon. If, for example, we
bring a negatively charged rod near the end of a straight wire that is 10
miles long, the repulsive Coulomb force emanating from the rod will
increase throughout the length of the wire virtually instantaneously, due
to the fact that the increase in the Coulomb repulsion will move through
space at many millions of times the speed of light. However, because the
Coulomb force falls off inversely with the square of the distance from the
source, it will only cause the nearby electrons in the wire to start moving
away from it, and will have a negligible effect on electrons further down
the wire. As the nearby electrons are accelerated away from the rod,
however, they will emit photons, and some of those photons will travel
further down the wire until they strike other electrons, which will then be
accelerated, after which they will emit photons, which will travel further
down the wire, etc. Result: a wave of electron displacements that travels
down the wire at the speed of light, despite the fact that the Coulomb
force itself travels at many millions of times the speed of light.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>(A help to one's imagination is to consider Laplace's "particles
>streaming out from the sun" to have some oscillation frequency
>associated with them, and then consider that motion causes this
>frequency to be red or blue shifted proportional to velocity.
>Then if you include that the interaction strength of the particle
>is affected in proportion to this red or blue shift, I think you
>might come close to the EM analogy.)

***{It is not the strength of the interaction, but its direction, that is
the problem. If we assume that gravity moves at lightspeed, then elementary
vector analysis gives a resultant force that does not pull the Earth toward
the center of mass of the sun, but rather pulls it toward a position in the
plane of the ecliptic which is 20.63 arc seconds forward from that
position. The effect is to produce an accelerating force tangential to the
Earth's orbit that, in roughly a million years, will hurl the Earth out of
its orbit. To reduce the tangential force by half, we would have to reduce
the resultant force by half--and that would do us no good, because then it
would take a mere *two* million years to hurl the Earth out of its orbit,
rather than the 4 billion plus years that are required. Bottom line: if we
were to reduce the pull of the Sun on the Earth by enough to eliminate the
tangential force, we would have to eliminate the pull of the Sun on the
Earth altogether, for practical purposes. In that case, the Earth would fly
out of its orbit anyway. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>It seems to me that vanFlandern fully considers this case (which
>proves Laplaces argument sadly lacking straight off) and then goes
>beyond it to show that even including this effect gravitation must
>be propagated much faster than c.

***{Laplace lived in an age when scientists were less prone to deny the
obvious than is the case today. Result: he made no big deal of the
reasoning, and went into little detail about it. He didn't expect anyone to
dispute the point, and no one did. Van Flandern, on the other hand, did not
have the luxury of living in the Age of Reason. He knew he would have to
come in loaded for bear, and he did. The idea, however, belongs to Laplace,
not to van Flandern; and Laplace would have been quite capable of defending
it himself, had he been so unfortunate as to live in a blighted age such as
this one, where defending it would have been required. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>So the question is, what extra effect is hidden within the
>equations of GR that allow even the acceleration (as opposed
>to only linear motion in the EM analogy) to have "look-ahead
>compensation".  Apparently Damour & co have proved that it
>exists - we just need another Feynman to describe it to us
>simply and convincingly.

***{Like you, I haven't a clue as to how the conventional view might be
defended. Unlike you, however, I am unwilling to simply assume that some
scientific guru out there somewhere has the power to overcome these
unconventional yet seemingly overwhelming arguments. (Like it or not,
conventional views are frequently wrong. If you had lived during the time
of Columbus, you would doubtlessly have responded to "round earth"
arguments by concluding that some scientific guru out there somewhere could
refute them, despite the fact that you could not, and so you would have
continued to believe that the Earth was flat.) --Mitchell Jones}***


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 28 13:35:23 1999
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References: <01BEEA78.B42EE5A0 wst1> from Remi Cornwall at "Aug 19, 99
 07:26:14 pm"
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 15:24:09 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Photons and the Doppler Effect
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>> Where does the energy come from in blue shift, where does it go in redshift.
>
>Where does the energy disappear to when you throw a ball backward off
>a moving train.  Where does the energy come from when you throw a ball
>forward off a moving train. (Relative to a stationary individual.)

***{Let me try to clarify what I think Remi was getting at. When you throw
a ball off of a moving train, Galilean addition of velocities applies: KE =
(1/2)m(Vb + Vt)^2, where Vt is the velocity of the train relative to the
aether (and, incidentally, relative to the ground), Vb is the velocity of
the ball relative to the train, and m is the mass of the ball. Naturally,
when the ball is thrown backward off of the moving train, the velocities
have opposite signs, and the resultant kinetic energy (with respect to the
aether) is less. However, when you toss a photon forward off of a moving
train, the velocity of the photon with respect to the aether is +c, and
when you toss a photon backward off of a moving train, it is -c. The
implication seems to be that KE = (1/2)mc^2 in both cases, which suggests
that the kinetic energy with respect to the aether is the same, in spite of
the difference in frequencies. The result is a seeming paradox: the
calculation of energy based on the kinetic energy formula clashes with a
calculation based on the Planck formula, E = hf.

The fallacy is in thinking that the mass of the photon is the same
regardless of whether it is launched forward or backward. It is false to
assume that the photons which are emitted in the forward direction have the
same mass as those which are emitted in the backward direction. In fact,
irrespective of the magnitude of the push which sets a photon into motion,
it obtains the same velocity--to wit: c with respect to the aether. Since
it seems reasonable to suppose that the amount of energy imparted to a
photon by a flashlight is the same regardless of whether the flashlight is
pointed forward or backwards, it follows that when a photon is launched,
any energy in excess of that required to bring the photon to lightspeed is
left over to comprise the mass of the photon. Since a photon launched in
the forward direction already has the benefit of the motion of the train
with respect to the aether, less additional work must be done to bring it
up to lightspeed than must be done if it is launched backwards. Result:
more of the total energy imparted to the photon by the flashlight will be
left over in the form of mass when the photon is launched in the forward
direction, than will remain when it is launched in the backward direction.
Bottom line: photons launched in the forward direction will be more massive
than those launched in the backward direction, and thus the kinetic energy
of photons launched forward will be greater than that of photons launched
backwards, despite the fact that both groups have the same velocity with
respect to the aether.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>--
> - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
> - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
> -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 28 13:36:07 1999
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 <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C03CAEB0F xch-cpc-02.rdyne.bna.boeing.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 15:26:02 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Using Shunt Resistors to Measure Current
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>Jed
>	You use an ammeter shunt, with a low reading voltmeter across it.
>This is how I read the 800 A in my car.

***{Let me see if I follow this. The only place in an automotive system
where you could get 800 amps would be in the starter circuit, so I assume
that is what you are talking about. Therefore you must have placed a
resistor in the starter circuit, then measured the voltage drop across it,
and divided the voltage drop by the value of the resistor to get the
current, right? In the starter circuit of a 12 volt automotive system, the
largest value you could possibly get for the voltage drop would be 12
volts, and so your resistor would have to be less than or equal to 12/800 =
.015 ohms. In other words, you needed a resistor of 15 thousandths of an
ohm or less--probably a *lot* less, since you would have fried your starter
if you dropped more than a volt or so across your shunt resistor--and you
needed it to be able to handle 800 amps. Does somebody sell something like
that? Or did you wire wrap the thing up all by yourself? --Mitchell
Jones}***

>
>> ----------
>> From: 	Jed Rothwell[SMTP:JedRothwell infinite-energy.com]
>> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
>> Sent: 	Friday, August 27, 1999 9:23 AM
>> To: 	vortex-L eskimo.com
>> Subject: 	Guy at KRI
>>
>> The guy at KRI's name is Dr. Xing-Zhe Zhao.
>>
>> It is a bad idea to try to read Chinese in Japanese.
>>
>> John Schnurer's Y to K joke was cute.
>>
>> How the heck do you measure 400 amps? Must have been a heavy duty meter .
>> .
>> . Mine don't go that high.
>>
>> - Jed
>>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 28 13:36:09 1999
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References: <v04011702b3ec5b8d3b4d [207.8.127.129]>
 <v04011700b3ec3e776209 [207.8.127.182]>
 <199908270439.SM00217 [192.168.0.2]>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 14:37:35 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Allais Effect and Push Theory of Gravitation
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>>>>
>>>>Data from that site shows:
>>>>
>>>>Time Period (sec)
>>>>
>>>>8:49     10.028
>>>>9:13     10.028
>>>>9:43     10.024
>>>>10:00    10.019
>>>>10:12    10.020
>>>>10:24    10.024
>>>>10:58    10.028
>>>>
>>>>This seems to confirm the theory that gravity is caused by fast particles
>>>>moving in straight lines in all directions. I thought these particles mihgt
>>>>originate in processes in (some?) stars. The data shows the period is
>>>>decreasing i.e. the gravity is reduced during the eclipse.
>>>
>>>***{This is backwards.
>
>>>Applying such an analysis to the data presented above, the implication is
>>>that gravity increased as the moon lined up with the sun, as is to be
>>>expected.
>>
>>***{Huh? Did I say that? Gravitational force *from above* would have
>>increased, so the resultant force (toward the earth) would have decreased.
>>That seems rather surprising, since it would seem to imply that the period
>>of the pendulum ought to have increased. What am I missing here?
>>
>
>First of all, if the period decreased, the downward gravitational field
>strength increased, (not decreased).

***{True enough, though I'm not sure why you said it, since I said it
myself. (See my post just before the one to which you are presently
responding.) --MJ}***

 Second, as the moon moves into
>totality, the change in gravitational potential should be trivial because
>slightly before and slightly after totality, the moon is still virtually in
>the identical location as far as gravitational calculations are concerned.

***{Yes, this is true, *for field based theories of gravitation*, as I
noted in the earlier post. For particle based theories, however, additional
possibilities arise, including gravitational aberration and gravitational
lensing. --MJ}***

>Third, the moon in perfect alignment would decrease the gravitational
>potential, not increase it, according to both GR and Newtonian theories.
>So the observed results are backwards compared to expectations.

***{Yup. That's why, in the post to which you are responding, I said:

"Gravitational force *from above* would have increased, so the resultant
force (toward the earth) would have decreased. That seems rather
surprising, since it would seem to imply that the period of the pendulum
ought to have increased."

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Many people have proposed that gravity is due to a flux of particles moving
>in straight lines in all directions.  the first was Le Sage in Newton's day
>shortly after his "action at a distance" theory was proposed.

***{Actually, Newton was *not* a proponent of "action at a distance." In
one of his letters (to Hailey, if memory serves), he addressed the point
directly, stating that in his opinion no person who had a competent faculty
of thinking could ever fall into the "action at a distance" notion. What
this means is that Newton thought gravitational force was carried by
particles, but he had no idea of the specific details of the process.
--Mitchell Jones}***

  The math is
>the same.

***{That's what I thought for a very long time, until it occurred to me
this morning that, if gravitational lensing occurs, the implications of the
push and pull theories are different. In the push theory (Lesage), we are
held to the earth by the downward push of "ultramundane corpuscles," which
rain down on us from space. (Since the mass of the earth blocks many of the
corpuscles that would otherwise be striking us from below, the resultant
force presses us downward, toward the earth.) When the moon passed overhead
during eclipse totality, it had seemed clear that it would block more
corpuscles--i.e., in addition to those already blocked by the sun--thereby
decreasing the downward push that the corpuscles were exerting on us. But
then, this morning, it occurred to me that there may be a spot where the
line of centers from sun to moon intersects the earth where, due to
gravitational lensing, the downward push actually increases. This would
occur because more ultramundane corpuscles are diverted to that spot due to
lensing than the additional number blocked by the moon. Result: a brief
interval during which the downward push increases. If this seems unclear,
consider an optical analogy: suppose that the moon is a ball of transparent
glass with an iron core. In that case, at eclipse totality the opaque core
will cast a shadow on the earth's surface, but the lensing effect by the
outer transparent layers of the moon will bend some light to a focal point
in the center of the shadow, and may actually render it brighter within
that area than it would have been if the eclipse had not occurred. By the
same token, gravitational lensing by the moon during an eclipse could
produce a tightly focused spot where downward gravitational force actually
increased, despite the fact that it had slightly decreased everywhere else.
Bottom line: the more I think about it, the more I am inclined to think
that this result refutes not merely all field based ("action at a
distance") theories of gravitation (including GR), but that it also refutes
the pull theory. All that remains, it seems, is Lesage's push theory.
--Mitchell Jones}***

 However, this type of model fails for many other reasons I won't
>go into here.

***{All of the arguments that I have seen used against the Lesage theory
(e.g., those of Feynmann) were fallacious. If you have something new on
this subject, I would like to hear it. --MJ}***

[snip]

>rt

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Subject: Re: Using Shunt Resistors to Measure Current
In-Reply-To: <v04011700b3edd9706528 [207.8.127.129]> from Mitchell Jones at "Aug 28, 99 03:26:02 pm"
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> >Jed
> >	You use an ammeter shunt, with a low reading voltmeter across it.
> >This is how I read the 800 A in my car.
> 
> ***{Let me see if I follow this. The only place in an automotive system
> where you could get 800 amps would be in the starter circuit, so I assume
> that is what you are talking about. Therefore you must have placed a
> resistor in the starter circuit, then measured the voltage drop across it,
> and divided the voltage drop by the value of the resistor to get the
> current, right? In the starter circuit of a 12 volt automotive system, the
> largest value you could possibly get for the voltage drop would be 12
> volts, and so your resistor would have to be less than or equal to 12/800 =
> .015 ohms. In other words, you needed a resistor of 15 thousandths of an
> ohm or less--probably a *lot* less, since you would have fried your starter
> if you dropped more than a volt or so across your shunt resistor--and you
> needed it to be able to handle 800 amps. Does somebody sell something like
> that? Or did you wire wrap the thing up all by yourself? --Mitchell
> Jones}***

Shunts are usually made of calibrated lengths of conductor, copper or
brass, etc.  I've made shunts from 12 gauge copper wire (household
wire) simply because the typical resistivity per foot is published
in many electric reference books.  You determine the max range of
your voltmeter (for instance, my computer A/D was from +or-0.256 Volts)
and then the maximum current you want to measure, again, in my
case, no more than 30 amps, because at the time that was the limit of
the power supply I was using.  So 0.256/30 gives 0.0085333 ohms.
According to the CRC, 12 guage at 20C is 0.001588 ohms per foot,
so I needed 5.3736 feet, or 64.5 inches.  I then calibrated it (found
correction factors) by passing a known current, etc.

If I wanted to do 1000 amps, I would just cut the length to
1000:30 or 100:3 or 1/33.333, or 1.9" (a larger diameter
wire would, however, be more forgiving in length measurement errors.)

If you were using a D'Arsonval galvanometer instead of a voltmeter,
the math is slightly different (dependent on the characterisitics
of the ammeter) but the idea is roughly the same.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 28 17:20:51 1999
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Huggins comments on glow discharge
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-----Original Message-----
Subject: Huggins comments on glow discharge


>I've been discussing the glow discharge experiments with Robert Huggins
>(rhg techfak.uni-kiel.de). Attached are some of his comments. He asks, "do
>you know of anyone who is using a liquid metal as an electrode?" The answer
>is, no I don't, except Liaw and Liebert at U. Hawaii many years ago. Does
>anyone here know of something like this?

Closely related to this question is the wide range of anomalous effects in
glow and arc discharges, which have been noted in papers extending back to
the early 30's. At one time there was a whole class of mercury arc and argon
glow discharge tubes, used for rectifiers, thyratrons, and even audio
amplifiers. The mercury devices had liquid metal cathodes.

The erosion of the cathodes is related positive ion bombardment, but there
are other effects which have been noted here and there, with possibly the
most intense work being that of Paulo Correa.

Mike Carrell

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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Security alert....
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 20:24:36 -0400
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-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: Security alert....


>Regarding the applet that reads fingerprints, Patrick V. Reavis writes:
>
> I don't see how such an applet (crapplet?) could work.  A light
> pen has a feed-back mechanism that uses a timing pulse to detect
> the pen's location on the screen.

It can't. This is total nonsense. The now-obsolete light pens had photocells
in them that could detect the scanning beam as it went by and so signal its
position. The very old ones were use with vector graphic displays and when
the pen was activated, it captured crosshairs displayed on the tube. There
are touch sensitive displays of several types which can detect the centroid
of contact of a finger on the screen, but in no way 'read' a fingerprint.
Such displays are not found on ordinary computer like on your desk. The CRT
has *****no****** light sensing capability.

Peripherals such as microphones can in principle be activated by invasive
code. But microphones are made to pick up sound. No code can make a CRT into
something it is not.

Mike Carrell

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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <JMeleski juno.com>, <Bobcandeu@aol.com>, <Ron.Brodzinski@pnl.gov>
Subject: Re: Electrostatics: Light Leptons, or Electrons,or Both?
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Insulators that will "donate" negative charges:

Jet (a form of lignite coal or "Black Amber")

Amber (a fossilized resin from coniferous trees)

Glass, Sealing wax, Bakelite, and Lucite

Negative charge Donors-Acceptors:

Polyethylene Film, Hard Rubber, 

Keratins (Protein Fibers):  Wool, Cat Fur, Silk

Are some of the Positive Charges left on the insulators, LL+ charges
that didn't annihilate with an LL- ?

Is there a charge path that lets Negative Charges from "ground" replenish
the charges conveyed in the Van de Graaff Generator?

Since Mrel = Mo[(E/Eo) + 1] =  Mo/(1-v^2/c^2)^1/2    a simple 
mass spectrometer could separate LLs (+/-) from regular electrons:

Radius =  Mrel*c/q*B.   With E = 5 kev, and B about 3 Gauss the LLs would
sweep a radius of a few inches and strike a phosphor, whereas the regulars
would sweep a Radius = m*v/(q*B) of about 30 inches.

Well?   :-)

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 28 22:10:28 1999
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Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 22:09:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Doppler effect & Relativity questions]
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Someone on Vortex (Scudder?) recommended the book

  Edwin F. Taylor and John A Wheeler, "Spacetime Physics, Introduction
  to Special Relativity," 2nd ed., W.H. Freeman Co.

I ordered it (from amazon.com, $39.95, including "slow" shipping option).

I'm only at about p. 30. I HIGHLY recommend this book. Low on math, high on
insight. I wish I had read it years ago.

Although I have written on relativity on this list, I am not an expert. I am
a plasma physicist by evolution, having worked in Plas Phys for about 30
years now. However, I was educated as an electrical engineer. My Ph.D. thesis
was on liquid metal magnetohytrodynamics. During my graduate studies, I took
a 1 semester seminar on electromagnetic forces. The (EE) professor giving
this seminar was trying to come to a general understanding of how to
calculate EM forces in any kind of material---a problem of some interest for
practical applications. Since a proper theory must also be correct in
relativistic situations, he used SR a lot. We had to learn it quickly. It was
very interesting, and it was the only formal instruction I ever had in
relativity. However, we applied SR through lots of tensor calculus. That was
necessary, because the force calculation problems we were dealing with are
not amenable to word solutions. So, I used SR a lot for 1 semester, but I
never acquired any intuition for it because of all the math and the fact I've
only applied SR to simple, standard situations on a few occasions in my
career since. 

I look forward to reading Taylor and Wheeler and doing their exercises.
Anyone else intersted in discussing SR ought to do so, too. These guys have
outstanding insight and know how to present the essence of this subject in an
intelligible way.
===
Michael J. Schaffer


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 28 22:27:43 1999
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All recieving antennas "suck" energy. That is what they are supposed to do.
Electrically small antennas (antennas whose physical size is much less than
the wavelength) extract energy from a swath of the incident wave that can be
much larger than the physical size of the antenna. The modern AM broadcast
band radio receiver antenna is an example. Resonance can be used to
advantage. It brings a disadvantage of narrowing the bandwidth. 

> if your antenna is << wavelength, then use it to
> transmit a cancelling wave which is phase-locked to the frequency of
> interest.  This will cancel out the energy in the entire nearfield region
> of your antenna. 

No. The near field is very nonuniform. It cannot cancel out the incident wave
except at a limited set of locations; anywhere else and the near field is too
strong, too weak, or in the wrong phase.

The near field is not mysterious, just hard to calculate in most practical
situations. Therefore, it's effect is usually buried in empirical numbers
presented in design tables and graphs.

(I worked briefly on antennas early in my career.)
===
Michael J. Schaffer


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 28 22:30:17 1999
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	?? BCNU 

	what ?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 28 23:25:35 1999
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I long ago designed a device that would place thrust on an electrode by the
same effect, By having the electrode in the middle of the torrid and
changing the polarity so that the thrust would be in a continual direction.
(pushed by the virtual electric field that moves the electrons)

I believe that Feynman had something similar...


John Berry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 28 23:31:12 1999
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On Sat, 28 Aug 1999, Michael Schaffer wrote:

> All recieving antennas "suck" energy. That is what they are supposed to do.
> Electrically small antennas (antennas whose physical size is much less than
> the wavelength) extract energy from a swath of the incident wave that can be
> much larger than the physical size of the antenna. The modern AM broadcast
> band radio receiver antenna is an example. Resonance can be used to
> advantage. It brings a disadvantage of narrowing the bandwidth. 

Yet when I discuss this with physics people, I'm met with some disbelief. 
Also, I'm fairly well-read in the physical sciences and engineering (and
quite a lot of QST magazine growing up), and in my opinion most physicists
do NOT realize that antennas can do this.  If they did, there would be no
reason to write papers about it.  I don't recall seeing anything about it
in the ARRL antenna book, but I guess I'll have to go back and check.  If
it was a totally well-known and well-studied phenomenon, physicists
wouldn't declare Tesla to be a crackpot because of his Wireless sytem,
saying that there's no way to receive significant energy at VLF without a
1/4-wave dipole or longwire antenna. The idea is not uncommon in some
Engineering and Ham circles, but even there we have events like the CFA
controversy over a desktop antenna which supposedly works as well as a
full-sized antenna. I myself never encountered the idea before, and only
stumbled upon it via some papers in the Tesla Symposium proceedings.  I
find it utterly fascinating. 

> > if your antenna is << wavelength, then use it to
> > transmit a cancelling wave which is phase-locked to the frequency of
> > interest.  This will cancel out the energy in the entire nearfield region
> > of your antenna. 
> 
> No. The near field is very nonuniform. It cannot cancel out the incident wave
> except at a limited set of locations; anywhere else and the near field is too
> strong, too weak, or in the wrong phase.

A good point.  I should change this, since I don't think I meant that it
zeros out all of the energy in the nearfield, just that some of the
"partial cancellation" effect must extend throughout the entire nearfield.


> The near field is not mysterious, just hard to calculate in most practical
> situations. Therefore, it's effect is usually buried in empirical numbers
> presented in design tables and graphs.

My intuition screams that the near field is mysterious, that it contains
unseen things.   This is hard to argue with!  :)    If everyone has
investigated a topic to death, then chances are that there are no new
discoveries lurking within it.  On the other hand, if each of us assumes
that the near field is NOT mysterious, then the mysteries might be staring
us in the face, yet we simply cannot see them.

> (I worked briefly on antennas early in my career.)

What do you think of my "partial-turn transformer winding?"  Will it do
anything weird, or just act like a tuned transformer?


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 29 00:50:09 1999
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Subject: Re: Energy-sucking antennas
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I wonder what cell phone antennas are sucking out of the space near them 
while we hold then to the side of our heads.

Just a thought, while I'm still capable of having them...

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 29 03:18:23 1999
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IF, Infrared-range Photons ~ 0.4 ev (3.1 Microns) are creating Light Lepton
(LL+/-)
Pairs, a  small 6 or 12 volt automotive light bulb immersed in the cells and
operated
with a filament temperature of 1500 to 2000 K, might show some increased
OU/CF effects.

This approach might also be used in the Case experiments.

Regards,     Frederick



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Energy storage idea:

Could anyone tell me why this would't work? Induce an A.C. current in a 
superconducting coil. When you need electricity, extract the current with a 
secondary coil. The primary could be kept cold in a glass vacuum dewar. 
Something tells me I'm missing something because this seems too simple.   
Pete



______________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 29 09:10:29 1999
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Peter Aldo wrote:

> Energy storage idea:
>
> Could anyone tell me why this would't work? Induce an A.C. current in a
> superconducting coil. When you need electricity, extract the current with a
> secondary coil. The primary could be kept cold in a glass vacuum dewar.
> Something tells me I'm missing something because this seems too simple.
> Pete
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

And whilst you guys/gals are considering this, I'd like to pose a different
question (along the same lines)

If all the flux in a toroidal inductor is contained within the toroid, what
happens with a superconducting core? (magnetic energy is expelled from the
superconductor)
We (NASA's Delta-G team) conducted experiments on this. ( I was the guy that
wrote the data down as it was shouted out. I did not consider what the data
meant, but, then again, it was over my head.)


--
Regards,
Patrick V. Reavis
http://ro.com/~preavis
http://ro.com/~preavis/Quiz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 29 09:10:36 1999
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Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 18:09:42 +0200 (MET DST)
From: David Jonsson <david bahnhof.se>
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Subject: Superconductivity with classical electrodynamics
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How can a circular superconductor avoid emitting synchrotron radiation? 
The electrons are constantly accelerated tovards the center. 

The explanation has to be that there is a local circular inertial system. 

Can there be other explanations?

Can it be the way Puthoff explains the ground state of hydrogen? There we
also have a circular non radiating current. (It is radiating but it is
receiving the same radiation from the ZPE. Net radiation=0)

David

David Jonsson    Phone +46-18-24 51 52           Fax +46-18-24 51 56
                 GSM +46-706-339487              E-mail david bahnhof.se
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 29 09:13:41 1999
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Subject: The basis for resistivity
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Is resistivity a form of radiation? Can resistivity be the result that the
current carriers do not move along inertial lines due to inhomogenieties
in the conductor? 

(I am trying to understand superconductivity)

David


David Jonsson    Phone +46-18-24 51 52           Fax +46-18-24 51 56
                 GSM +46-706-339487              E-mail david bahnhof.se
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 29 09:18:27 1999
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From: David Jonsson <david bahnhof.se>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: A small rotating inertial system
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I am productive today? My third post.

Imagine a glass of water. The water is rotating. According to Fresnel
Fizeaus law the inertial system vill tend to rotate with the water. Thus
we have a small rotating inertial system. 

Can this be a clue to understand Schauberger?

David

David Jonsson    Phone +46-18-24 51 52           Fax +46-18-24 51 56
                 GSM +46-706-339487              E-mail david bahnhof.se
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 29 10:04:34 1999
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Energy storage device
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>Energy storage idea:
>
>Could anyone tell me why this would't work? Induce an A.C. current in a
>superconducting coil. When you need electricity, extract the current with a
>secondary coil. The primary could be kept cold in a glass vacuum dewar.
>Something tells me I'm missing something because this seems too simple.
>Pete

***{It sounds like you are talking about an air core transformer, with two
parallel coils, one superconducting, the other not. But what do you do with
the leads of the superconducting coil? If they are connected to a
capacitor, then an induced current in one direction would come to a stop
when the capacitor was fully charged, and then reverse until the capacitor
was fully charged to the opposite polarity, then reverse again. But with
each reversal, there would be an accompanying expansion and contraction of
a magnetic field, with associated photon emissions. Thus even without
losses due to resistive heating, your storage device would leak, and thus
would not serve the intended purpose. (And, of course, the maintenance of
the temperature at the low levels required for superconductivity would also
consume power.) Bottom line: the type of gadget you are describing sounds
more like a radio transmitter than an energy storage device.

If you drop the idea of using AC current, however, you could simply store
energy in a humongous magnetic field. A superconducting coil with the leads
shorted together would maintain a large, steady current, and a large,
steady magnetic field would surround it. If you then switched the leads to
an external circuit, the current from the coil would be diverted into that
circuit, and would continue to drive it until the magnetic field had
collapsed. In effect, you would be using the magnetic field as an energy
storage device. Unfortunately, I don't think it would be cost effective to
store large amounts of power in this way, despite the speed with which the
power could be stored. (How much expense would be involved in building a
superconducting coil large enough to store the energy of a lightning bolt?
Anybody?)

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 29 10:04:37 1999
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References: <v04011700b3edd9706528 [207.8.127.129]> from Mitchell Jones at
 "Aug 28, 99 03:26:02 pm"
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 11:28:01 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Using Shunt Resistors to Measure Current
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>> >Jed
>> >	You use an ammeter shunt, with a low reading voltmeter across it.
>> >This is how I read the 800 A in my car.
>>
>> ***{Let me see if I follow this. The only place in an automotive system
>> where you could get 800 amps would be in the starter circuit, so I assume
>> that is what you are talking about. Therefore you must have placed a
>> resistor in the starter circuit, then measured the voltage drop across it,
>> and divided the voltage drop by the value of the resistor to get the
>> current, right? In the starter circuit of a 12 volt automotive system, the
>> largest value you could possibly get for the voltage drop would be 12
>> volts, and so your resistor would have to be less than or equal to 12/800 =
>> .015 ohms. In other words, you needed a resistor of 15 thousandths of an
>> ohm or less--probably a *lot* less, since you would have fried your starter
>> if you dropped more than a volt or so across your shunt resistor--and you
>> needed it to be able to handle 800 amps. Does somebody sell something like
>> that? Or did you wire wrap the thing up all by yourself? --Mitchell
>> Jones}***
>
>Shunts are usually made of calibrated lengths of conductor, copper or
>brass, etc.  I've made shunts from 12 gauge copper wire (household
>wire) simply because the typical resistivity per foot is published
>in many electric reference books.  You determine the max range of
>your voltmeter (for instance, my computer A/D was from +or-0.256 Volts)
>and then the maximum current you want to measure, again, in my
>case, no more than 30 amps, because at the time that was the limit of
>the power supply I was using.  So 0.256/30 gives 0.0085333 ohms.
>According to the CRC, 12 guage at 20C is 0.001588 ohms per foot,
>so I needed 5.3736 feet, or 64.5 inches.  I then calibrated it (found
>correction factors) by passing a known current, etc.
>
>If I wanted to do 1000 amps, I would just cut the length to
>1000:30 or 100:3 or 1/33.333, or 1.9" (a larger diameter
>wire would, however, be more forgiving in length measurement errors.)
>
>If you were using a D'Arsonval galvanometer instead of a voltmeter,
>the math is slightly different (dependent on the characterisitics
>of the ammeter) but the idea is roughly the same.

***{Thanks for the info. I thought that was where Henry was headed, but the
detail from you made the point crystal clear. Very interesting stuff.
--MJ}***

>
>--
> - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
> - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
> -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 29 11:18:21 1999
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Toroidial transformers with fractional turns?!!!
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I'm on vacation until thursday, and will only answer email if I can lay my
hands upon a telnet port!

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 29 13:06:30 1999
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From: Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
Subject: Re: Energy storage device
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At 12:01 PM 08/29/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
(How much expense would be involved in building a
>superconducting coil large enough to store the energy of a lightning bolt?
>Anybody?)

Not superconducting-- but extremely weight efficient is Clint Seward's
funded proposal for NASA. 

I suggest that the design of this will determine the shape of our future
space vehicles. 
( Shades of Pogo  :-)

Colin Quinney


<http://www.niac.usra.edu/studies/9801/seward.html>
                                               
                                            Clint Seward
                                            Electron Power Systems, Inc.
                                            "Low-Cost Space Transportation
Using Electron
                                            Spiral Toroid (EST) Propulsion" 

                                                          

                                            A revolutionary method has been
discovered to store large amounts of energy
                                            as magnetic field energy with
virtually no mass, using the newly patented
                                            electron spiral toroid (EST).
On a BMDO contract in February 1998, a
                                            Research Scientist at the MIT
Plasma Science and Fusion Center
                                            independently confirmed that
some EST's will be stable without the need of
                                            an external magnetic field;
just a small electric field. The EST has large total
                                            energy and low mass,
potentially resulting in revolutionary advances in space
                                            propulsion. An EST is
calculated to store 10 12 Joules of magnetic field
                                            energy in a containment of 235
kg, replacing a Titan rocket's 700,000 kg of
                                            fuel with 32 kg of thruster
gas. The potential is for a space transportation
                                            vehicle with a cost of $100K
vs. $89M for a Titan, reducing the cost of all
                                            NASA missions. The EST is a
hollow toroid of electrons, all spiraling in
                                            parallel paths in a thin outer
surface. The EST is charge neutral, being
                                            surrounded by ions which
provide the small electric field. This makes the EST
                                            force free. The parallel paths
are current loops, which create a very large
                                            internal magnetic field.
Microwave energy may be added to raise electrons to
                                            10,000 eV. Propulsion would
heat ions without combustion through collisions
                                            with the EST surface, ejecting
them for thrust. Specific impulse: 143,000
                                            seconds vs. 500 for chemical
rockets. The ions are contained by electric
                                            fields until ejected; thus
protecting mechanical parts. The thrust can be shut
                                            off when required. Proof of
concept tests have shown EST energy loss rates
                                            to be small. This project will
develop a concept design of a low cost EST
                                            based space propulsion system,
and will continue the study of the EST
                                            equilibrium and stability. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 29 14:18:50 1999
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Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 14:10:28 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Energy storage device
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At 12:01 PM 8/29/99 -0500, you wrote:
>But with each reversal, there would be an accompanying expansion and
contraction of
>a magnetic field, with associated photon emissions.

Photons? I am no physicist but aren't you implying an AC transformer would
glow in the dark?

--Lynn

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 29 14:52:05 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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Subject: Re: Using Shunt Resistors to Measure Current
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	Real world shunts:

	The main practical issue with shunts is making low resistance
contacts to your shunts.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 29 16:12:50 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 19:11:14 EDT
Subject: Re: Huggins comments on glow discharge
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Did Ohmori or Mizuno ever try molybdenum as the cathode?

Molybdenum has a lower melting point than tungsten and isn't as hard, but it 
may be tougher and less likely to disintegrate so quickly.

Tom Stolper

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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Energy storage device
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At 07:57 AM 8/29/99 PDT, Peter Aldo wrote:

>Could anyone tell me why this would't work? Induce an A.C. current in a 
>superconducting coil.

A coil alone won't sustain an AC current...but it will sustain a DC
current...and such a storage device is being considered.  It's called the
SMES (Superconducting Magnetic Energy Storage).  One site that discusses it
is:

http://www.ee.vt.edu/ecenews/feb97/SMES.html

I agree with Mitchell in guessing that this technology will never fly very
far because of prohibitive cost.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 29 20:45:22 1999
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From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199908300344.WAA13926 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Using Shunt Resistors to Measure Current
To: vortex-l eskimo.com (vortex-l)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 22:44:09 -0500 (CDT)
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John Schnurer wrote:
> Real world shunts:
> 
> The main practical issue with shunts is making low resistance
> contacts to your shunts.

Not a problem, the solution is simplicity itself.  It's called
the four point shunt, but that makes it sound mysterious.

In my previous example I had made a shunt with 64.5 inches of
12 gauge copper wire. In reality, I used 66.5 inches of wire,
and I soldered my voltmeter wires one inch from each end, getting
it back to 64.5 between tap points, but avoiding co-locating
the main current connection point on top of the tap point.

The voltage drop at the high current point of a bad contact
is isolated from the tap point, which is a very low current
tap point and won't iself generate much I*R voltage drop.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
 - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 29 23:10:46 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Knuke .... What am BCNU Re: Security alert....
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 02:12:37 -0400
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>	?? BCNU 
>
>	what ?

Actually, after looking at it again, it should be BCNU!  ^)   That looks a
bit better.

There was a short-lived BBC program series back in the 60's called The
Prisoner.  We got it, if I recall correctly, on late-night PBS in Indiana.
The BCNU is short for "Be Seeing You!", and the  ^) is an emoticon.  All of
The Villagers in The Prisoner used this phrase whenever parting company.
While they were saying the words, they would form an O or a circle with
their thumb and forefinger, put it up to their eye, and look through the
hole. That is what the emoticon is supposed to represent.

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 01:40:37 1999
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>His problems with "credibility" have nothing to do with the quality of his
>scientific work or his judgement. Foolish, ignorant, jealous people
>attacked him. Believe them, and you might as well turn around and evaluate
>evolutionary theory based on what ignorant yahoos at the Kansas Board of
>Education say. Those people tore out two years of careful curriculum
>planning,  and in a couple of hours they replaced it with superstitious
>glop! It's a good thing Kansas medical schools don't let them rewrite the
>textbooks, or doctors would be forced to learn exorcism instead of surgery.
>
>- Jed
     In defence of the Kansas Board of Education, there is no fossil
evidence that one species ever evolved into another. Also parts of the
fossil record seem to indicate that reptiles. birds and mammals all
appeared at the same time. What both examples have in common is that they
violate established science's pet paradigms. Low energy transmutation of
atoms in large numbers (bulk transmutation or alchemy) violates the
imutability of elements and Creationism viotates the paradigm of
Materialistic Naturalism. G Gordon Liddy was talking about that part of the
fossil record, and generally having fun at the expense of people like the
late Carl Sagan who defend Materialistic Naturalism even though the
ultimate result of this philosophy, is the spontaneous beginning of life,
which is the ultimate violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

     Ever since I read "Sturcture of Scientific Revolutions", I have been
fascinated by what I call paradigm blindness. If a person knows that
something is impossible, then it can't be happening, and they ignore the
evidence. There is something worse however, that is people like the flack
Garry Taube's who produce and spread disinformation because it conflicts
with someones adgenda. The question is whose adgenda? The establishment's
mouth piece, National Public Radio recently revived Taubes, the flack's
work in at least two instances last spring when then aserted that cold
fusion was not happening. This makes me wonder why they are spreading this
nonsense, and whose adgenda is being promoted?


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	Dear Knuke,

	How cool.  And 'emoticon' ... who started the word, etymology? And
how many emoticons are there?  Anyone make a list and description?
One of my favorites is o:) .... meditate... the 'o' is third eye.

		j 

On Mon, 30 Aug 1999, Michael T Huffman wrote:

> 
> >	?? BCNU 
> >
> >	what ?
> 
> Actually, after looking at it again, it should be BCNU!  ^)   That looks a
> bit better.
> 
> There was a short-lived BBC program series back in the 60's called The
> Prisoner.  We got it, if I recall correctly, on late-night PBS in Indiana.
> The BCNU is short for "Be Seeing You!", and the  ^) is an emoticon.  All of
> The Villagers in The Prisoner used this phrase whenever parting company.
> While they were saying the words, they would form an O or a circle with
> their thumb and forefinger, put it up to their eye, and look through the
> hole. That is what the emoticon is supposed to represent.
> 
> Knuke
> 
> 
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 02:55:17 1999
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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 05:57:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l <vortex-l eskimo.com>
cc: John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: Using Shunt Resistors to Measure Current
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	Dear John,

	You bear out my point exactly!  Unless you know of some trick, or
have or make a fixture, then handling high current is NOT a simple task.

	I bet your ti\rick is good... but I could not understand it from
your text.
	A little help, please?


On Sun, 29 Aug 1999, John Logajan wrote:

> John Schnurer wrote:
> > Real world shunts:
> > 
> > The main practical issue with shunts is making low resistance
> > contacts to your shunts.
> 
> Not a problem, the solution is simplicity itself.  It's called
> the four point shunt, but that makes it sound mysterious.
> 
> In my previous example I had made a shunt with 64.5 inches of
> 12 gauge copper wire. In reality, I used 66.5 inches of wire,
> and I soldered my voltmeter wires one inch from each end, getting
> it back to 64.5 between tap points, but avoiding co-locating
> the main current connection point on top of the tap point.
> 
> The voltage drop at the high current point of a bad contact
> is isolated from the tap point, which is a very low current
> tap point and won't iself generate much I*R voltage drop.
> 
> -- 
>  - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
>  - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
>  -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -
> 

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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Jed Rothwell on Skeptics: some comments
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Vo, some food for thought:

-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: Jed Rothwell on Skeptics


>
>>His problems with "credibility" have nothing to do with the quality of his
>>scientific work or his judgement. Foolish, ignorant, jealous people
>>attacked him. Believe them, and you might as well turn around and evaluate
>>evolutionary theory based on what ignorant yahoos at the Kansas Board of
>>Education say. Those people tore out two years of careful curriculum
>>planning,  and in a couple of hours they replaced it with superstitious
>>glop! It's a good thing Kansas medical schools don't let them rewrite the
>>textbooks, or doctors would be forced to learn exorcism instead of
surgery.
>>
>>- Jed
>     In defence of the Kansas Board of Education, there is no fossil
>evidence that one species ever evolved into another. Also parts of the
>fossil record seem to indicate that reptiles. birds and mammals all
>appeared at the same time. What both examples have in common is that they
>violate established science's pet paradigms. Low energy transmutation of
>atoms in large numbers (bulk transmutation or alchemy) violates the
>imutability of elements and Creationism viotates the paradigm of
>Materialistic Naturalism. G Gordon Liddy was talking about that part of the
>fossil record, and generally having fun at the expense of people like the
>late Carl Sagan who defend Materialistic Naturalism even though the
>ultimate result of this philosophy, is the spontaneous beginning of life,
>which is the ultimate violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics.


The immutability of elements was an empirical assumption which died with the
discovery of radioactivity. Life does not violate the Second Law of
Thermodynamics except in the most primitive reasoning. The SLT is a thought
experiment applicable to isolated systems. There is ample evidence that in
real systems where energy input is possible, that Nature has a tendency to
self-organize. This can be demonstrated by the spontaneous appearance of
organized patterns in simple chemical systems.

The Creationist attack on simplistic evolution, assuming a "random" process,
fails also, for Natural Selection is not random at all. The incremental
changes in the genome of any particular organism are random, but the
reproductive success or failure of that organism is not random; it is tested
by its environment. Computer simulations of this process have repeatedly
demonstrated it's astonishing power to evolve successful structures of
increasing complexity. It has commercial application in what is called
"combinatorial chemistry", systematic twiddling with chemicals looking for
something with useful properties.

I think it true that no demonstration of the evolutionary creation of a
species has been made. One can assume that if a population of some organism
is irrevocably divided by some natural event, that over time genetic drift
will make crossbreeding impossible, thereby "by definition" creating
separate species. This is an assumption. Experiments with fruit flies, which
breed rapidly, have failed to make a species transition -- but this proves
nothing on a larger scale.

I will be reviewing for IE a book "Forbidden Archaeology" which details the
evidence for existence of anatomically modern humans tens of millions of
years ago, and the systematic neglect of that evidence as scientists tried
to force fit evidence into Darwin's paradigm. The focus of my review is the
process of evidential suppression, which parallels what we have observed in
the CF field. The evidence presented in the book is embarrassing both to the
pro- and anti- Darwin camps. It does not support a simplistic biblical
creationist argument, nor does it support the idea of a temporally proximate
common ancestor of humans and other primates. I say "temporally proximate"
against a time scale of tens of millions of years.

Mike Carrell

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At 08:11 AM 8/30/99 -0400, Mike Carrell wrote:
>Vo, some food for thought:
>
>-----Original Message-----
>Subject: Re: Jed Rothwell on Skeptics
>
>
>>
>>>His problems with "credibility" have nothing to do with the quality of his
>>>scientific work or his judgement. Foolish, ignorant, jealous people
>>>attacked him. Believe them, and you might as well turn around and evaluate
>>>evolutionary theory based on what ignorant yahoos at the Kansas Board of
>>>Education say. Those people tore out two years of careful curriculum
>>>planning,  and in a couple of hours they replaced it with superstitious
>>>glop! It's a good thing Kansas medical schools don't let them rewrite the
>>>textbooks, or doctors would be forced to learn exorcism instead of
>surgery.
>>>
>>>- Jed
>>     In defence of the Kansas Board of Education, there is no fossil
>>evidence that one species ever evolved into another. Also parts of the
>>fossil record seem to indicate that reptiles. birds and mammals all
>>appeared at the same time. What both examples have in common is that they
>>violate established science's pet paradigms. Low energy transmutation of
>>atoms in large numbers (bulk transmutation or alchemy) violates the
>>imutability of elements and Creationism viotates the paradigm of
>>Materialistic Naturalism. G Gordon Liddy was talking about that part of the
>>fossil record, and generally having fun at the expense of people like the
>>late Carl Sagan who defend Materialistic Naturalism even though the
>>ultimate result of this philosophy, is the spontaneous beginning of life,
>>which is the ultimate violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
>
>
>The immutability of elements was an empirical assumption which died with the
>discovery of radioactivity. Life does not violate the Second Law of
>Thermodynamics except in the most primitive reasoning. The SLT is a thought
>experiment applicable to isolated systems. There is ample evidence that in
>real systems where energy input is possible, that Nature has a tendency to
>self-organize. This can be demonstrated by the spontaneous appearance of
>organized patterns in simple chemical systems.

  True.  The SLT-2 merely states that "You can't
break even" (* admittedly very paraphrased).

   SLT-1: "You can't win"
   SLT-3: "You can't get out of this"

  Life does not violate SLT-2.  Life may organize
(antientropy) but on net, more entropy is created
than information (antientropy).

   Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 06:37:11 1999
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(oops, put SLT for LT, corrected here)
===============================================

  The LT-2 (SLT) merely states that "You can't
break even" (* admittedly very paraphrased).

   LT-1: "You can't win"
   LT-3: "You can't get out of this"

  Life does not violate LT-2 (SLT).  Life may organize
(antientropy) but on net, more entropy is created
than information (antientropy).

   Mitchell Swartz



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 08:12:22 1999
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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:09:31 -0500
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: stable magnetic levitation
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We have succeeded in replicating the recent stable magnetic levitation
discovery reported in Nature Vol 400, 22 JULY 99, p. 323.

Read about it (with photos) at:

http://www.eden.com/~little/magnets/lev.html



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 08:53:08 1999
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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:48:02 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Jed Rothwell on Skeptics
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>>His problems with "credibility" have nothing to do with the quality of his
>>scientific work or his judgement. Foolish, ignorant, jealous people
>>attacked him. Believe them, and you might as well turn around and evaluate
>>evolutionary theory based on what ignorant yahoos at the Kansas Board of
>>Education say. Those people tore out two years of careful curriculum
>>planning,  and in a couple of hours they replaced it with superstitious
>>glop! It's a good thing Kansas medical schools don't let them rewrite the
>>textbooks, or doctors would be forced to learn exorcism instead of surgery.
>>
>>- Jed
>     In defence of the Kansas Board of Education, there is no fossil
>evidence that one species ever evolved into another.

***{What does this mean? Paleontologists have unearthed fossils showing the
gradual evolution of literally thousands of species, including man, from
more primitive progenitors. If you are merely saying that each series of
that type is incomplete in the sense of not containing the skeleton of each
individual in the line of descent, then I am flabbergasted. You might as
well deny the progressive development of the automobile on the grounds that
most were destroyed by scrap crushers in junk yards and, thus, are not
available for examination. It makes precisely as much sense to claim that
the 1999 Chevy may have been zooming around in 1911 as to claim that modern
men may have been walking around during the time of the dinosaurs.
--Mitchell Jones}***

Also parts of the
>fossil record seem to indicate that reptiles. birds and mammals all
>appeared at the same time.

***{Utter drivel. When geological layers that have not been altered or
intermingled by erosion, digging, or other processes are examined, the
fossils show a clear progression toward more and more sophisticated forms
as one moves toward the surface. This is simply a fact, and is supported by
evidence that is so overwhelming as to render its denial laughable. You
might as well tell your chemistry professor that the molecular theory is a
myth and that, in fact, substances are composed of mixtures of earth, air,
fire, and water, as to attempt to foist this type of nonsense off on anyone
who knows anything about paleontology or evolutionary theory. The fact that
some questions remain open which establishment scientists think have been
settled does not mean that nothing has been settled. Like it or not, some
questions are closed, not by decree, but by the overwhelming force of logic
and evidence, and the validity of Darwin's theory is one of them.
--Mitchell Jones}***

What both examples have in common is that they
>violate established science's pet paradigms. Low energy transmutation of
>atoms in large numbers (bulk transmutation or alchemy) violates the
>imutability of elements and Creationism viotates the paradigm of
>Materialistic Naturalism. G Gordon Liddy was talking about that part of the
>fossil record, and generally having fun at the expense of people like the
>late Carl Sagan who defend Materialistic Naturalism even though the
>ultimate result of this philosophy, is the spontaneous beginning of life,
>which is the ultimate violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

***{Rubbish. Physicists have been arguing about the proper scope and
meaning of the Second Law for more than a hundred years, but it is
generally accepted that, when stated with proper qualifiers, the Second Law
does *not* conflict with Darwinism. Thus you are proclaiming a clash
between biologists and physicists that both groups deny exists. --Mitchell
Jones}***

>
>     Ever since I read "Sturcture of Scientific Revolutions", I have been
>fascinated by what I call paradigm blindness. If a person knows that
>something is impossible, then it can't be happening, and they ignore the
>evidence. There is something worse however, that is people like the flack
>Garry Taube's who produce and spread disinformation because it conflicts
>with someones adgenda. The question is whose adgenda? The establishment's
>mouth piece, National Public Radio recently revived Taubes, the flack's
>work in at least two instances last spring when then aserted that cold
>fusion was not happening. This makes me wonder why they are spreading this
>nonsense, and whose adgenda is being promoted?

***{The fact that establishment scientists do not know everything does not
imply that they know nothing. --MJ}***

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Nice going, Scott!

You might try this with a piece of electret material suspended between
a pair of plates using your "Farnsworth Fusor" power supply.

If that don't work, you can try pith, or thumpthing like that.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick  



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 10:11:27 1999
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Thomas Malloy wrote:

> > G Gordon Liddy was talking about that part of the
> >fossil record, and generally having fun at the expense of people like the
> >late Carl Sagan who defend Materialistic Naturalism even though the
> >ultimate result of this philosophy, is the spontaneous beginning of life,
> >which is the ultimate violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
> 

Mitchell Jones wrote:

> ***{Rubbish. Physicists have been arguing about the proper scope and
> meaning of the Second Law for more than a hundred years, but it is
> generally accepted that, when stated with proper qualifiers, the Second Law
> does *not* conflict with Darwinism.
> 

On this forum, it can be said that much of that which is "generally
accepted" by the science conspiracy/establishment is open to question
here. 

I've never heard that the 2nd law had been modified with "the proper
qualifiers".
What are these proper qualifiers?

As I understand it, Lt2 goes : "The natural tendency of all physical
systems is towards increasing disorder"

How would you like to qualify this, Mitchell?

Or would you like to deny that life is a physical system?

> Thus you are proclaiming a clash
> between biologists and physicists that both groups deny exists. --Mitchell
> Jones}***

It is true that both groups might get together and circle the wagons,
denying the obvious contradictions inherent in their separate theses.
That doesn't mean that the contradictions disappear. 

Jim Ostrowski



 



> >
> >     Ever since I read "Sturcture of Scientific Revolutions", I have been
> >fascinated by what I call paradigm blindness. If a person knows that
> >something is impossible, then it can't be happening, and they ignore the
> >evidence. There is something worse however, that is people like the flack
> >Garry Taube's who produce and spread disinformation because it conflicts
> >with someones adgenda. The question is whose adgenda? The establishment's
> >mouth piece, National Public Radio recently revived Taubes, the flack's
> >work in at least two instances last spring when then aserted that cold
> >fusion was not happening. This makes me wonder why they are spreading this
> >nonsense, and whose adgenda is being promoted?
> 
> ***{The fact that establishment scientists do not know everything does not
> imply that they know nothing. --MJ}***

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Mitchell Swartz wrote:
> 
>
>   The LT-2 (SLT) merely states that "You can't
> break even" (* admittedly very paraphrased).
> 
>    LT-1: "You can't win"
>    LT-3: "You can't get out of this"
> 
>   Life does not violate LT-2 (SLT).  Life may organize
> (antientropy) but on net, more entropy is created
> than information (antientropy).
>

Information can be quantified in units called "bits". How many more
"unbits" (antientropy units) are "created" than "bits"?

Jim Ostrowski

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From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ca-ois.com>
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Mitchell Swartz wrote:
> 

>   The LT-2 (SLT) merely states that "You can't
> break even" (* admittedly very paraphrased).
> 
>    LT-1: "You can't win"
>    LT-3: "You can't get out of this"
> 
>   Life does not violate LT-2 (SLT).  Life may organize
> (antientropy) but on net, more entropy is created
> than information (antientropy).
> 

oops... I meant: 

Information can be quantified in units called "bits". How many more
"unbits" (_entropy_ units) are "created" than "bits"?

JO
>    Mitchell Swartz

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Subject: Re: Scott Replicates!!
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At 10:44 AM 8/30/99 -0700, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>Nice going, Scott!
>
>You might try this with a piece of electret material suspended between
>a pair of plates using your "Farnsworth Fusor" power supply.

Is there an electrical analog to diamagnetism?...i.e. something that always
repels a charge, regardless of polarity.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 10:42:42 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Jed Rothwell on Skeptics
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This subject is off-topic, and it can ignite endless arguments. If I had
known there were anti-evolutionists on this list I might have refrained
from introducing it. I would like to point out a few things which I hope no
one will find controversial enough to ignite or prolong an argument.

Since the sun shines, evolution is no violation of thermodynamics. Net
entropy for the entire solar system increases inexorably. To give an
analogy, at a riverbank a small eddy current may push objects upstream, but
the overall trend is downstream.

There is an excellent book for the general public which describes actual,
legitimate, scientific, open questions and new trends in evolution: Francis
Hitching, "The Neck of the Giraffe," (Meridian, 1982). The arguments
presented in this book have nothing to do with creationism or mistaken
ideas about entropy.

I meant no disrespect for religion. The Catholic Church and most other
established religions have endorsed evolution. This month's Scientific
American has an interesting article about the fact that scientists are
disproportionately atheists compared to the general public. That may be so,
but many scientists are religious. There is no real conflict between
religion and science.

Mitchell Jones is quite correct in saying, "The fact that establishment
scientists do not know everything does not imply that they know nothing."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 10:53:55 1999
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August 30, 1999

Vortex,

The missile downing of TWA Flt 800 is alive and growing stronger.
<<http://twa800.com>>

-AK-

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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
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Bill
	Use superposition, since antennas are linear systems.
The currents in the receiving antennas do produce fields, which add
vectorially with the incoming fields. The resulting field strength is the
sum of all the fields.

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	William Beaty[SMTP:billb eskimo.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Saturday, August 28, 1999 11:30 PM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: Energy-sucking antennas
> 
> On Sat, 28 Aug 1999, Michael Schaffer wrote:
> 
> > All recieving antennas "suck" energy. That is what they are supposed to
> do.
> > Electrically small antennas (antennas whose physical size is much less
> than
> > the wavelength) extract energy from a swath of the incident wave that
> can be
> > much larger than the physical size of the antenna. The modern AM
> broadcast
> > band radio receiver antenna is an example. Resonance can be used to
> > advantage. It brings a disadvantage of narrowing the bandwidth. 
> 
> Yet when I discuss this with physics people, I'm met with some disbelief. 
> Also, I'm fairly well-read in the physical sciences and engineering (and
> quite a lot of QST magazine growing up), and in my opinion most physicists
> do NOT realize that antennas can do this.  If they did, there would be no
> reason to write papers about it.  I don't recall seeing anything about it
> in the ARRL antenna book, but I guess I'll have to go back and check.  If
> it was a totally well-known and well-studied phenomenon, physicists
> wouldn't declare Tesla to be a crackpot because of his Wireless sytem,
> saying that there's no way to receive significant energy at VLF without a
> 1/4-wave dipole or longwire antenna. The idea is not uncommon in some
> Engineering and Ham circles, but even there we have events like the CFA
> controversy over a desktop antenna which supposedly works as well as a
> full-sized antenna. I myself never encountered the idea before, and only
> stumbled upon it via some papers in the Tesla Symposium proceedings.  I
> find it utterly fascinating. 
> 
> > > if your antenna is << wavelength, then use it to
> > > transmit a cancelling wave which is phase-locked to the frequency of
> > > interest.  This will cancel out the energy in the entire nearfield
> region
> > > of your antenna. 
> > 
> > No. The near field is very nonuniform. It cannot cancel out the incident
> wave
> > except at a limited set of locations; anywhere else and the near field
> is too
> > strong, too weak, or in the wrong phase.
> 
> A good point.  I should change this, since I don't think I meant that it
> zeros out all of the energy in the nearfield, just that some of the
> "partial cancellation" effect must extend throughout the entire nearfield.
> 
> 
> > The near field is not mysterious, just hard to calculate in most
> practical
> > situations. Therefore, it's effect is usually buried in empirical
> numbers
> > presented in design tables and graphs.
> 
> My intuition screams that the near field is mysterious, that it contains
> unseen things.   This is hard to argue with!  :)    If everyone has
> investigated a topic to death, then chances are that there are no new
> discoveries lurking within it.  On the other hand, if each of us assumes
> that the near field is NOT mysterious, then the mysteries might be staring
> us in the face, yet we simply cannot see them.
> 
> > (I worked briefly on antennas early in my career.)
> 
> What do you think of my "partial-turn transformer winding?"  Will it do
> anything weird, or just act like a tuned transformer?
> 
> 
> ((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) )
> )))))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 11:47:21 1999
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Jed Rothwell on Skeptics: some comments
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[snip]

>
>I think it true that no demonstration of the evolutionary creation of a
>species has been made.

***{This focuses on the wrong question. The drawing of species boundaries
is a somewhat arbitrary process, as is demonstrated by the division of
paleontologists into two camps, "lumpers" and "splitters"--meaning: those
who tend to ignore small differences when assigning species labels, and
those who do not ignore them. Another problem arises due to the gradualism
of the process: if species B evolved from species A, then there must at
some point have arisen the first individual of species B, and we are faced
with the necessity to assign his parents to species A. Thus we find
ourselves confronted with an absurdity: the parents are of one species, and
the offspring--virtually indistinguishable from them--is of another! To
avoid such difficulties, which are entirely terminological, we must leave
the labeling process aside and focus on the question of whether sustained
environmental pressures have been demonstrated to produce sustained
movement in the characterists of a population. Once the question is phrased
in that way, a multitude of examples leaps quickly to mind: dogs have
diverged from wolves over the past 15,000 years, both mentally and
physically, due to the pressures of living with people. Domestic cats have
also diverged from their wild forebears, as have hogs, cattle, horses,
donkeys, etc. Bacteria have adapted to antibiotics; insects have adapted to
pesticides; deer have changed in response to the pressures exerted by human
hunters; and on and on. Thousands of examples exist, in fact, demonstrating
the principles of natural selection in living organisms, and an enormous
fossil record exists demonstrating that those principles applied in the
past. Logic and evidence agree, and are overwhelming: natural selection is
unarguable fact, not theory. --Mitchell Jones}***

One can assume that if a population of some organism
>is irrevocably divided by some natural event, that over time genetic drift
>will make crossbreeding impossible, thereby "by definition" creating
>separate species.

***{The notion that species differences depend on such matters is
simplistic. There many types of organisms that reproduce asexually--e.g.,
by means of binary fission. Despite that state of affairs, a sufficiently
large accumulation of changes can prompt biologists to assign different
species labels to them. And there are many cases where cross breeding
remains possible--e.g., between buffalo and cattle--and yet species labels
differ. What needs to be recognized here is that while the assignment of
species labels is a subjective process in which contentious arguments can
go on seemingly without end, those issues are *irrelevant* to the
substantive scientific question of whether environmental pressures can
produce sustained, large scale divergences of the traits of a population
from those of its ancestors. While questions of the former type will never
be settled to everyone's satisfaction, questions of the latter sort already
have been settled definitively, in the eyes of every reasonable observer.
--Mitchell Jones}***

This is an assumption. Experiments with fruit flies, which
>breed rapidly, have failed to make a species transition

***{Like the question of whether the dog and the wolf are of the same
species, the answer depends on what the definition of "species" is agreed
to be, and is therefore arguable. What is not arguable, however, is that
environmental pressures exerted in the laboratory on fruit fly populations
have produced organisms that differ greatly from wild populations. In my
opinion, if those organisms had been found in the wild, they would have
instantly been dubbed "new species." However, because they were created in
the laboratory and because religious zealots are hell bent on denying
evolution, that decision is in fact hotly disputed. --Mitchell Jones}***

but this proves
>nothing on a larger scale.
>
>I will be reviewing for IE a book "Forbidden Archaeology" which details the
>evidence for existence of anatomically modern humans tens of millions of
>years ago

***{I would strongly urge the powers that be at *Infinite Energy* to not
venture down this path. Their credibility will *not* be enhanced by this
sort of venture into blatant crackpottery. --Mitchell Jones}***

, and the systematic neglect of that evidence as scientists tried
>to force fit evidence into Darwin's paradigm. The focus of my review is the
>process of evidential suppression, which parallels what we have observed in
>the CF field.

***{Gad, what a truly *horrible* idea. You might as well rail on about the
"suppression" of evidence that the earth is flat, and draw parallels to the
suppression of CF evidence! Certainly if you were to do so you would not
damage the credibility of CF any more than you will by means of the review
that you are contemplating. --Mitchell Jones}***

The evidence presented in the book is embarrassing both to the
>pro- and anti- Darwin camps. It does not support a simplistic biblical
>creationist argument, nor does it support the idea of a temporally proximate
>common ancestor of humans and other primates. I say "temporally proximate"
>against a time scale of tens of millions of years.
>
>Mike Carrell

***{It sounds to me as though you are venturing into a debate that you do
not understand. I would advise you to spend a few years thinking and
reading in this area before you begin pontificating in print about it. A
good way to comprehend the way fossil evidence is obtained and evaluated
would be by reading *Lucy: the Beginnings of Humankind*, by Donald
Johansen. To understand the logic of evolution, on the other hand, you need
to study a detailed analysis of a concrete case. The evolution of the
domestic dog from the wolf would be a good place to start, and the most
thorough and detailed treatment of the evolution of domestic canines that I
have seen is in my own book, *The Dogs of Capitalism*. But whatever you do,
I strongly urge you to *not* associate free energy with anything so
blatantly absurd as the notion that men have been on earth for tens of
millions of years. Free energy is an unproven possibility that merits
continued investigation, and will not benefit from an association with
documented crackpottery. --Mitchell Jones}***

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----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: Scott Replicates!!

Scott wrote:
>
> Is there an electrical analog to diamagnetism?...i.e. something that
always
> repels a charge, regardless of polarity.
>
Not that I know of, Scott, but, Millikan "levitated" charged oil drops
between
a pair of circular plates spaced about a cm apart with a 10 kilovolt
field.

Were those charges (+/- e) regular electrons, or were they Light Leptons
created by the oil atomizer, and/or the light source he used to see them
(they looked like tiny stars) using a telescope?

Regards,   Frederick


> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 13:22:19 1999
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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:16:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Logajan <jlogajan yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Using Shunt Resistors to Measure Current
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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John Schnurer wrote:

> I bet your trick is good... but I could not
> understand it from your text.

Okay, below is a battery/resistor circuit
with a current measuring four point shunt.

The current flowing through the voltmeter
is extermly tiny in comparison to the total
current flowing from point 1 to 4.  Points
1 and 4 are the connections to the outside
wiring.  From 1 to 4 is a continuous metal
shunt.  Points 2 and 3 are soldered or
otherwise attached to the shunt so as not
to create a bad connection between 1-4.
In otherwords, it would defeat the purpose
if the points at 2 and 3 were splice points
joining non-continuous pieces of conductor
making up the 1-4 link.

In this way, bad connections at 1 and/or 4
may generate local voltage gradients, but
the are not going to effect the I*R voltage
drop between 2-3, which is what the voltmeter
is measuring to determine the current.

A bad connection at the sense lead of 2 or 3
will not have much error effect in the measurement
because the current is so miniscule in the
sensing circuit, therefore I*R voltage offsets
are trivial.

                 Shunt
             1  2     3  4
   +=========+--+-----+--+===========+
   |            |     |              |
   -  +         |     |              \
  --- Battery   +--V--+        Load  /
   |  -         Voltmeter            \
   |                                 |
   +==================================

Therefore the connections at 1 and 4 need to
be no better than the normal connections
you would use to drive the given load if
no current measurment was needed.

And the connections at 2 and 3, as long
as they don't restrict the flow 1-4, need
not be any better than the normal sorts of
connections you would need to make voltage
measurements with a high impedance voltmeter.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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Subject: Re: Using Shunt Resistors to Measure Current
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	Shunt:

	I know about Kelvin connections, and thanks for the good write up.
	The MAIN thing I want to get from people is the MECHANICAL
TRICKS....  how to nake a fixture to have accurate use of the wire or
other shunt....

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 13:34:33 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
cc: John Schnurer <herman college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Naaaa HA!
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	 George Carlin:

> 1) Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty
> things.
> 2) One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
> 3) Atheism is a nonprophet organization.
> 4) If man evolved from monkeys and apes, why do we still
> have monkeys and apes?
> 5) The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows
> where all the bad girls live.
> 6) I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman,
> "Where's the self-help section?" She said if she told me it would
> defeat the purpose.
> 7) Could it be that all those trick-or-treaters wearing
> sheets aren't going as ghosts but as mattresses?
> 8) If a mute swears, does his mother wash his hands with
> soap?
> 9) If a man is standing in the middle of the forest
> speaking and there is no woman around to hear him - is he
> still wrong?
> 10) If someone with multiple personalities threatens to
> kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?
> 11) Is there another word for synonym?
> 12) Isn't it a bit unnerving that doctors call what they
> do practice?
> 13) Where do forest rangers go to get away from it all?
> 14) What do you do when you see an endangered animal
> eating an
> endangered plant?
> 15) If a parsley farmer is sued, can they garnish his
> wages?
> 16) Would a fly without wings be called a walk?
> 17) Why do they lock gas station bathrooms? Are they
> afraid someone will clean them?
> 18) If a turtle doesn't have a shell, is he homeless or
> naked?
> 19) Why don't sheep shrink when it rains?
> 20) Can vegetarians eat animal crackers?
> 21) If the police arrest a mime, do they tell him he has
> the right to remain silent?
> 22) Why do they put Braille on the drive-through bank
> machines?
> 23) How do they get the deer to cross at that yellow road
> sign?
> 24) Is it true that cannibals don't eat clowns because
> they taste funny?
> 25) What was the best thing before sliced bread?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 13:40:26 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Since I get swamped with feedback on this topic, I'll post this comment too.
:-)

In a 3/4 utility bath there were a pair of 15 watt fluorescent bulbs on the
medicine
cabinet for about 35 years. It seemed that there was always static
electricity around
when they were in use.

After finally changing the bulbs to a newer, more pleasing spectrum, the
static electricity
is no longer around.

A fluorescent bulb generally emits 21% photons in the visible range, 26%
photons
in the Infrared and the 53% balance as conduction-convection losses.

Then there is the red-hot electric heating element that helps generate the
"static cling"
in the electric clothes dryer.

Regards,   Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 13:40:42 1999
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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:41:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: SLT
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	What is-are SLT 1, 2 ... and so on?  Will you please tell us what
SLT stands for "Some Law There" ??
	Can you please list all of them?

	Thanks,

				J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 13:54:13 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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        Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: SLT Mo ?
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  True.  
The SLT-2 "You can't break even" 


   SLT-1: "You can't win"
   SLT-3: "You can't get out of this"

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 14:22:13 1999
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 <v04011700b3f04af82ec8 [207.8.127.145]>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:14:17 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Jed Rothwell on Skeptics
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>Thomas Malloy wrote:
>
>> > G Gordon Liddy was talking about that part of the
>> >fossil record, and generally having fun at the expense of people like the
>> >late Carl Sagan who defend Materialistic Naturalism even though the
>> >ultimate result of this philosophy, is the spontaneous beginning of life,
>> >which is the ultimate violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
>>
>
>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>> ***{Rubbish. Physicists have been arguing about the proper scope and
>> meaning of the Second Law for more than a hundred years, but it is
>> generally accepted that, when stated with proper qualifiers, the Second Law
>> does *not* conflict with Darwinism.
>>
>
>On this forum, it can be said that much of that which is "generally
>accepted" by the science conspiracy/establishment is open to question
>here.

***{Yup. --MJ}***

>
>I've never heard that the 2nd law had been modified with "the proper
>qualifiers".
>What are these proper qualifiers?
>
>As I understand it, Lt2 goes : "The natural tendency of all physical
>systems is towards increasing disorder"
>
>How would you like to qualify this, Mitchell?
>
>Or would you like to deny that life is a physical system?

***{I have no patience with 20th century theoretical physics. Most of it is
just obscurantist nonsense. Result: I toss the 20th century versions of the
Second Law in the dumper. That means I don't talk about "entropy" or about
"order and disorder." To me, the Second Law is a simple statement about the
direction of energy changes in closed systems--to wit: in the long run, in
a closed system, energy transforms into heat, and heat flows from regions
of higher temperature to regions of lower temperature. Such a formulation
applies to all closed systems, whether living or non-living. This means if
you attempt to drive down the road without periodically adding gasoline to
your tank, you will eventually run out of gas--which means: all the
chemical energy in the tank will have been transformed into heat and
kinetic energy. Next, the kinetic energy still possessed by the car and by
its internal mechanical parts will transform into heat, the car will coast
to a stop, the engine will stop turning, and the temperature of the car
will fall that of the ambient air, all in strict accordance with the 2nd
law. And the same considerations apply to life: if you continue moving
about without eating, you will eventually exhaust your stored energy, after
which cellular metabolism will cease, you will stop moving, and your body
temperature will fall to that of the ambient air. To avoid that outcome,
both man and machine must periodically receive inputs from outside the
system. There is nothing complicated about this idea, and there is no
contradiction between it and Darwinism. Enough said. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>> Thus you are proclaiming a clash
>> between biologists and physicists that both groups deny exists. --Mitchell
>> Jones}***
>
>It is true that both groups might get together and circle the wagons,
>denying the obvious contradictions inherent in their separate theses.
>That doesn't mean that the contradictions disappear.

***{The fact that degree encrusted rote memorizers express the Second Law
in ways that facilitate misunderstanding does not mean the Second Law is
flawed. All it means is that foggy thinkers express themselves poorly.
--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Jim Ostrowski

[snip]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 14:25:53 1999
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: stable magnetic levitation
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On Mon, 30 Aug 1999, Scott Little wrote:

> We have succeeded in replicating the recent stable magnetic levitation
> discovery reported in Nature Vol 400, 22 JULY 99, p. 323.
> 
> Read about it (with photos) at:
> 
> http://www.eden.com/~little/magnets/lev.html

Hi Scott!  There is a conversation going on about this on my sciclub-list
forum.  Martin Simon (one of the Nature coauthors?)  had a word to say. 
He's also selling the devices to interested parties, some of which use
Bismuth, others use exotic oriented-graphite.  (Hint: bismuth is available
in the form of bismuth-pellet shotgun shells from most hunting stores.)

Several hobbyists have posted websites on this demonstration.  I've added
them to links on my Neodymium Magnets website,
http://www.amasci.com/neodemo.html

SCICLUB-LIST SUBSCRIBTION INSTRUCTIONS
  http://www.amasci.com/sci-list/sci-list.html

SCICLUB-LIST CURRENT ARCHIVE
  http://www.escribe.com/science/sciclub/index.html


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 14:44:43 1999
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From: rvanspaa bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SLT Mo ?
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:40:16 GMT
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On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:43:44 -0400 (EDT), John Schnurer wrote:

>
>  True.  
>The SLT-2 "You can't break even" 
>
>
>   SLT-1: "You can't win"

FLT
>   SLT-3: "You can't get out of this"

TLT



Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

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From: rvanspaa bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Light Lepton Pair Production (0.2 ev) from Fluorescent Bulbs?
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:45:31 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:36:17 -0700, Frederick Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>Then there is the red-hot electric heating element that helps generate the
>"static cling"
>in the electric clothes dryer.
[snip]
Nice try but...static cling also develops in gas dryers. I suspect it
has more to do with rubbing different sorts of material together in dry
air.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

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Mitchell
	I have an electric sports car, a Tropica. It draws 800 Amps climbing
hills and accelerating from a stop light.

Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Mitchell Jones[SMTP:mjones jump.net]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Sunday, August 29, 1999 9:28 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: Using Shunt Resistors to Measure Current
> 
> >> >Jed
> >> >	You use an ammeter shunt, with a low reading voltmeter across it.
> >> >This is how I read the 800 A in my car.
> >>
> >> ***{Let me see if I follow this. The only place in an automotive system
> >> where you could get 800 amps would be in the starter circuit, so I
> assume
> >> that is what you are talking about. Therefore you must have placed a
> >> resistor in the starter circuit, then measured the voltage drop across
> it,
> >> and divided the voltage drop by the value of the resistor to get the
> >> current, right? In the starter circuit of a 12 volt automotive system,
> the
> >> largest value you could possibly get for the voltage drop would be 12
> >> volts, and so your resistor would have to be less than or equal to
> 12/800 =
> >> .015 ohms. In other words, you needed a resistor of 15 thousandths of
> an
> >> ohm or less--probably a *lot* less, since you would have fried your
> starter
> >> if you dropped more than a volt or so across your shunt resistor--and
> you
> >> needed it to be able to handle 800 amps. Does somebody sell something
> like
> >> that? Or did you wire wrap the thing up all by yourself? --Mitchell
> >> Jones}***
> >
> >Shunts are usually made of calibrated lengths of conductor, copper or
> >brass, etc.  I've made shunts from 12 gauge copper wire (household
> >wire) simply because the typical resistivity per foot is published
> >in many electric reference books.  You determine the max range of
> >your voltmeter (for instance, my computer A/D was from +or-0.256 Volts)
> >and then the maximum current you want to measure, again, in my
> >case, no more than 30 amps, because at the time that was the limit of
> >the power supply I was using.  So 0.256/30 gives 0.0085333 ohms.
> >According to the CRC, 12 guage at 20C is 0.001588 ohms per foot,
> >so I needed 5.3736 feet, or 64.5 inches.  I then calibrated it (found
> >correction factors) by passing a known current, etc.
> >
> >If I wanted to do 1000 amps, I would just cut the length to
> >1000:30 or 100:3 or 1/33.333, or 1.9" (a larger diameter
> >wire would, however, be more forgiving in length measurement errors.)
> >
> >If you were using a D'Arsonval galvanometer instead of a voltmeter,
> >the math is slightly different (dependent on the characterisitics
> >of the ammeter) but the idea is roughly the same.
> 
> ***{Thanks for the info. I thought that was where Henry was headed, but
> the
> detail from you made the point crystal clear. Very interesting stuff.
> --MJ}***
> 
> >
> >--
> > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
> > - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
> > -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 15:04:09 1999
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This stuff is off topic but as long as the arguments remain strictly
scientific I guess a few messages here won't hurt. Legit discussions of
evolutionary theory are one of my favorite topics. Let me know if people
want me to move this to Vortex-B-L

Mitchell Jones writes:

	Logic and evidence agree, and are overwhelming: natural
	selection is unarguable fact, not theory.

Technically it is a very solid theory, and theories never become facts, but
in the less technical sense of the word 'fact,' I agree. However, as
Hitchings describes, the precise mechanism is open to question. I think the
weakest aspect of neo-Darwinism is Weismann's barrier between somatic and
germ cells. Some experiments indicate that DNA changes may penetrate this
barrier, which would give rise to very rapid evolution in a kind of
neo-Lamarckian process. (Hichings, p. 122) An important experiment is Steel
& Groczynski, "Inheritance of Acquired Immunological Tolerance to Foreign
Histocampatibility Antigens in Mice," Nature, 1981. It was not replicated
as of 1982. "Results from independent researchers were less conclusive,
perhaps because they did not follow Steel's precise technique." That sounds
familiar!


	I would strongly urge the powers that be at *Infinite Energy* to
	not venture down this path. Their credibility will *not* be
	enhanced by this sort of venture into blatant crackpottery.

I think it is a crackpot idea too, but I am not worried about I.E.'s
credibility, because we don't have any. A few more crackpot ideas won't
hurt. You will find lots of crackpot ideas in staid journals like Nature
and Sci. Am. They are dressed up as far-out notions like multiple
universes, and I cannot really tell how crackpot they are, but many
physicists think they are beyond the pale. Still, people do not blame
Nature for every odd idea they publish.


	I strongly urge you to *not* associate free energy with anything
	so blatantly absurd as the notion that men have been on earth
	for tens of millions of years. Free energy is an unproven
	possibility that merits continued investigation, and will not
	benefit from an association with documented crackpottery.

I wish we would stop associating free energy with cold fusion, where "free
energy" is defined as an anomalous energy claim that has not been
independently replicated or verified. I would toss out the magnetic motors,
the Correa device, Bessler's Wheel, etc., until the inventors steps forward
and arrange credible, independent replications. However, Gene and Mike
Carrell find these topics interesting and worthwhile. I guess there is no
harm in publishing reports about them. It seems a little silly.

The problem is that there are hundreds of unproven claims -- far too many
for any person or organization to investigate. 95 out of 100 are garbage,
and in the 5 remaining cases, the inventor has been keeping it secret for
30 years and he is determined to go his grave with it, so who cares? People
write to me about these things from time to time. I copy the letters to
Gene in case he feels more open minded than I do, and I send a polite form
letter to the inventors telling them they need to do before I will look at
their claims:

1. We are pleased to hear about this invention and we would like to know
more about it, but we will not sign a non-disclosure agreement. We have no
use for information we are not free to publish, and no use for a machine
the inventor chooses to keep secret instead of selling.

2. We recommend that you work with local professional engineers and with us
to perform independent third party verification of the claims.

3. We recommend that you apply for a patent, if you have not already done
so. The application will be rejected until you convince the world the
invention is real . . .

That makes them shut up and go away. The analog which I use to blow away
the skeptics I described here earlier. I say how nice to hear from you
professor, and oh by the way I would be delighted to send you some peer
reviewed papers on cold fusion, or if you would like, perhaps I can arrange
for a sample of transmuted material from a Japanese National University to
be delivered to your institute, which you can investigate with your own
instruments. When they hear that -- Bam! they're history. The last thing a
"skeptic" wants to see is incontrovertible physical proof he is wrong.

This is also a good technique for dealing with flim-flam men and telephone
hustlers. Don't get mad; pretend you are interested instead. "Sure, I'd
love to hear about your amazing offer. Tell me, what is your telephone
number and your address? Let me call you back . . ." Click . . . dial tone
. . . and they scratch you off the list of marks.

- Jed

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From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
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> ----------
> From: 	Scudder, Henry J[SMTP:henry.j.scudder boeing.com]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Monday, August 30, 1999 2:58 PM
> To: 	'vortex-l eskimo.com'
> Subject: 	RE: Using Shunt Resistors to Measure Current
> 
> Mitchell
> 	I have an electric sports car, a Tropica. It draws 800 Amps climbing
> hills and accelerating from a stop light. It has 12 golf cart batteries,
> 72v nominal. I have a 1000 amp, 100mv shunt in series with the batteries
> to measure the current. R=.1/1000= 100 micro-ohms. It uses the Kelvin 4
> point measuring system.
> 
> Hank
> 
> > ----------
> > From: 	Mitchell Jones[SMTP:mjones jump.net]
> > Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Sent: 	Sunday, August 29, 1999 9:28 AM
> > To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Subject: 	Re: Using Shunt Resistors to Measure Current
> > 
> > >> >Jed
> > >> >	You use an ammeter shunt, with a low reading voltmeter
> across it.
> > >> >This is how I read the 800 A in my car.
> > >>
> > >> ***{Let me see if I follow this. The only place in an automotive
> system
> > >> where you could get 800 amps would be in the starter circuit, so I
> > assume
> > >> that is what you are talking about. Therefore you must have placed a
> > >> resistor in the starter circuit, then measured the voltage drop
> across
> > it,
> > >> and divided the voltage drop by the value of the resistor to get the
> > >> current, right? In the starter circuit of a 12 volt automotive
> system,
> > the
> > >> largest value you could possibly get for the voltage drop would be 12
> > >> volts, and so your resistor would have to be less than or equal to
> > 12/800 =
> > >> .015 ohms. In other words, you needed a resistor of 15 thousandths of
> > an
> > >> ohm or less--probably a *lot* less, since you would have fried your
> > starter
> > >> if you dropped more than a volt or so across your shunt resistor--and
> > you
> > >> needed it to be able to handle 800 amps. Does somebody sell something
> > like
> > >> that? Or did you wire wrap the thing up all by yourself? --Mitchell
> > >> Jones}***
> > >
> > >Shunts are usually made of calibrated lengths of conductor, copper or
> > >brass, etc.  I've made shunts from 12 gauge copper wire (household
> > >wire) simply because the typical resistivity per foot is published
> > >in many electric reference books.  You determine the max range of
> > >your voltmeter (for instance, my computer A/D was from +or-0.256 Volts)
> > >and then the maximum current you want to measure, again, in my
> > >case, no more than 30 amps, because at the time that was the limit of
> > >the power supply I was using.  So 0.256/30 gives 0.0085333 ohms.
> > >According to the CRC, 12 guage at 20C is 0.001588 ohms per foot,
> > >so I needed 5.3736 feet, or 64.5 inches.  I then calibrated it (found
> > >correction factors) by passing a known current, etc.
> > >
> > >If I wanted to do 1000 amps, I would just cut the length to
> > >1000:30 or 100:3 or 1/33.333, or 1.9" (a larger diameter
> > >wire would, however, be more forgiving in length measurement errors.)
> > >
> > >If you were using a D'Arsonval galvanometer instead of a voltmeter,
> > >the math is slightly different (dependent on the characterisitics
> > >of the ammeter) but the idea is roughly the same.
> > 
> > ***{Thanks for the info. I thought that was where Henry was headed, but
> > the
> > detail from you made the point crystal clear. Very interesting stuff.
> > --MJ}***
> > 
> > >
> > >--
> > > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  651-633-8928 -
> > > - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
> > > -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -
> > 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 15:18:55 1999
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Subject: Re: Light Lepton Pair Production (0.2 ev) from Fluorescent Bulbs?
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:12:14 -0700
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----- Original Message -----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: Light Lepton Pair Production (0.2 ev) from Fluorescent Bulbs?

Robin wrote:
>
> Nice try but...static cling also develops in gas dryers. I suspect it
> has more to do with rubbing different sorts of material together in dry
> air.

Haa So.., No Infrared photons in a gas flame or from a ~600 F metal heat
exchanger huh?  :-)

Calculate the ionization in the IR (< 1000 K) portion of a flame from Saha's
equation, or see why good insulators like lucite, transformer oil, glass,
saran wrap,
paraffin wax, and so on, that take 12 to 15 ev to ionize, or stand off 3000
to 8000
volts per mil, happily give up their electrons with very light rubbing or
friction.   :-)

QED is telling you that there are "resonances" for pair production from
photons
at 1.02 Mev (x-ray photons),  7,460 ev (x-ray photons), 54.4 ev, (EUV
photons)
and 0.397 ev (3.12 micron Infrared photons).

Take your pick.  :-)

Regards,     Frederick
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 15:51:31 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Light Lepton, Hydrino-Electrino, OU/CF Wager
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:48:46 -0700
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I'll make this wager, Robin,

Hang a 150 watt, variac or light dimmer controlled Infrared Heat Lamp
in a closed container with H2O or D2O with some K2CO3 in the water.

Without any electrolysis you should get hydrinos and electrinos and ou heat
(if you can figure out how to detect them).

This should work nicely in the Case D2-Pd-Carbon Cell, too.

The nearest Gambling casino is only 20 minutes away, and even though the 
parking lot is full around-the-clock, I don't gamble.  :-)

Regards,     Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 17:09:04 1999
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From: "Peter Aldo" <prospector85 hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Energy storage device
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 17:07:00 PDT
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Thanks for the link, Scott. I was considering the use for such a device 
being for electric vehicles, not for harnessing lightening. I don't see why 
it woul be so cost prohibitive- a coil, means of insulation, liquid helium, 
and charge/discharge electronics. Compared to lead/acid batteries, it would 
be non-toxic, last practically forever, and be much more efficient. But 
could it be made small enough for an electric vehicle?
Pete


>From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Energy storage device
>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:17:50 -0500
>
>At 07:57 AM 8/29/99 PDT, Peter Aldo wrote:
>
> >Could anyone tell me why this would't work? Induce an A.C. current in a
> >superconducting coil.
>
>A coil alone won't sustain an AC current...but it will sustain a DC
>current...and such a storage device is being considered.  It's called the
>SMES (Superconducting Magnetic Energy Storage).  One site that discusses it
>is:
>
>http://www.ee.vt.edu/ecenews/feb97/SMES.html
>
>I agree with Mitchell in guessing that this technology will never fly very
>far because of prohibitive cost.
>
>
>Scott Little
>EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
>512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX)
>little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little
>
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 18:11:38 1999
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 <19990829145711.91276.qmail hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 17:00:57 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Photons
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>At 12:01 PM 8/29/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>But with each reversal, there would be an accompanying expansion and
>contraction of
>>a magnetic field, with associated photon emissions.
>
>Photons? I am no physicist but aren't you implying an AC transformer would
>glow in the dark?
>
>--Lynn

***{No. Most AC transformers emit rf (radio frequency) photons. A photon is
merely a discrete chunk of electromagnetic radiation, irrespective of
frequency. There are gamma ray photons, x-ray photons, uv photons, ir
photons, rf photons, etc., in addition to light photons. Photons arise when
an element of a magnetic flux line is torn loose and enabled to move
through space as a separate entity. If it possesses at that time a velocity
(with respect to the aether) in excess of a threshold value, it responds to
that state of affairs by immediately accelerating to lightspeed and
becoming a photon. The energy for the acceleration is supplied by the
differential impact of ultramundane corpuscles, and is a continuous force
driving the photon forward throughout its existence. (Lightspeed is merely
the terminal velocity of a flux element in the aether.) --Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 18:53:53 1999
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
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Subject: Re: Jed Rothwell on Skeptics: some comments
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>
>Mitchell Jones writes:
>
> Logic and evidence agree, and are overwhelming: natural
> selection is unarguable fact, not theory.
>
>Technically it is a very solid theory, and theories never become facts, but
>in the less technical sense of the word 'fact,' I agree. However, as
>Hitchings describes, the precise mechanism is open to question. I think the
>weakest aspect of neo-Darwinism is Weismann's barrier between somatic and
>germ cells. Some experiments indicate that DNA changes may penetrate this
>barrier, which would give rise to very rapid evolution in a kind of
>neo-Lamarckian process. (Hichings, p. 122) An important experiment is Steel
>& Groczynski, "Inheritance of Acquired Immunological Tolerance to Foreign
>Histocampatibility Antigens in Mice," Nature, 1981. It was not replicated
>as of 1982. "Results from independent researchers were less conclusive,
>perhaps because they did not follow Steel's precise technique." That sounds
>familiar!
>
>
> I would strongly urge the powers that be at *Infinite Energy* to
> not venture down this path. Their credibility will *not* be
> enhanced by this sort of venture into blatant crackpottery.
>
>I think it is a crackpot idea too, but I am not worried about I.E.'s
>credibility, because we don't have any. A few more crackpot ideas won't
>hurt. You will find lots of crackpot ideas in staid journals like Nature
>and Sci. Am. They are dressed up as far-out notions like multiple
>universes, and I cannot really tell how crackpot they are, but many
>physicists think they are beyond the pale. Still, people do not blame
>Nature for every odd idea they publish.


I suggest Mitchell and Jed suspend judgement until my review appears. I said
briefly that the thrust of my review is not to defend the thesis of
Forbidden Archeology but to review the establishment response to the data.
In many respects the book is an essay on epistemology and the asymmetrical
treatment of weak observations which support the existing paradigm and
strong observations which dissent from it. This is familiar to readers of
Vortex and IE, and indeed parallels Jed's excellent essays on the Wright
brothers. I have done similar treatments of Newman and Besseler's Wheel.

There is very strong evidence supporting the mechanism of natural selection,
as I pointed out. Its power is incredible. There are anomalies all over the
place. IE is not Fortean Times, nor should it be. I am no supporter of
biblical creationism. My personal view is that our knowledge is seriously
incomplete in many areas and when anomalies gather, one should look for a
larger understanding.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 19:01:56 1999
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*** Forwarded message, originally written by hamdi ucar  hamdix verisoft.com.tr on 29-Aug-99 ***

Hi Ron,

I am fine. I just returned from a long vacation. Quake did not hit both my home and the place that I was (Imros, An Aegean island). Sorry I could not reply you earlier. Thanks for your care and wishes.

More later,

hamdi ucar


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 19:53:06 1999
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From: rvanspaa bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Q:neutrinos
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 02:50:38 GMT
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Do neutrinos have angular momentum?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

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From: rvanspaa bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Light Lepton, Hydrino-Electrino, OU/CF Wager
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 03:04:36 GMT
Organization: Improving
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On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:48:46 -0700, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>I'll make this wager, Robin,
>
>Hang a 150 watt, variac or light dimmer controlled Infrared Heat Lamp
>in a closed container with H2O or D2O with some K2CO3 in the water.
[snip]
I think my experiment is simpler :).

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 20:07:23 1999
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From: rvanspaa bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Light Lepton Pair Production (0.2 ev) from Fluorescent Bulbs?
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 03:00:00 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <37d244b5.359672636 mail-hub>
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On Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:12:14 -0700, Frederick Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>Haa So.., No Infrared photons in a gas flame or from a ~600 F metal heat
>exchanger huh?  :-)
[snip]
Try hanging a cloth, that develops static in a dryer, in front of a bar
radiator, and see if develops a charge without any tumbling action.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 20:36:20 1999
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Energy-sucking antennas
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William Beaty wrote:

>What do you think of my "partial-turn transformer winding?"  Will it do
>anything weird, or just act like a tuned transformer?

I didn't save it. But as I remember it, I think your partial turn transformer
winding will interact with the electric field induced by the transformer.
However, bucause the partial turn links no time-varying amgnetic flux, this
interaction is capacitive. For a transformer situation this means that the
capacitive impedance will be very high, limiting the maximum current, hence
also limiting the power you can draw from the partial turn.
===
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 30 22:04:23 1999
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Subject: Re: Light Lepton Pair Production (0.2 ev) from Fluorescent Bulbs?
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: Light Lepton Pair Production (0.2 ev) from Fluorescent Bulbs?

Robin wrote:


> Try hanging a cloth, that develops static in a dryer, in front of a bar
> radiator, and see if develops a charge without any tumbling action.
> 
Interesting idea, but where is the 600 to 1000 cfm of H2O-laden air,
in such an experiment?

Regards,   Frederick

> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 31 04:52:48 1999
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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:51:50 +0200 (MET DST)
From: David Jonsson <david bahnhof.se>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: stable magnetic levitation
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990830100931.01049ef8 mail.eden.com>
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On Mon, 30 Aug 1999, Scott Little wrote:

> We have succeeded in replicating the recent stable magnetic levitation
> discovery reported in Nature Vol 400, 22 JULY 99, p. 323.
> 
> Read about it (with photos) at:
> 
> http://www.eden.com/~little/magnets/lev.html

Look at levitating water
http://www.sci.kun.nl/hfml/Mlimages/Movies/drop2a.mpg (1.3 MB)

It sure looks like antigravity.

David

David Jonsson    Phone +46-18-24 51 52           Fax +46-18-24 51 56
                 GSM +46-706-339487              E-mail david bahnhof.se
Uppsala, Sweden  Web: http://bahnhof.se/~david/  Postgiro 499 40 54-7

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 31 06:50:28 1999
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Remi Cornwall wrote:
> 
> Vo,
> I don't know his private email but is Hamdi okay?
> Remi.


Yes, I am ok. I was at vacation. just came back. I am still scanning the 2000 mails that I received trough 2 months. Sorry, I had not wrote my absence to this list prior my departure.

More later,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 31 07:31:07 1999
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Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
> >>Vo,
> >>I don't know his private email but is Hamdi okay?
> >>Remi.
> >
> >I thought I read that he was going on vacation not too long ago, and don't
> >remember if I read that he returned.  I just saw the report on the
> >earthquake myself, so it is quite possible that the phone lines are down or
> >a major part of the internet in that area is inaccessable.  We'll just have
> >to wait and hope for the best, unless there is someone in the area that can
> >shed more light on the subject.
> 
I was not Istanbul at the time of the quake. I live at Bosphorus area which is about 40 miles distance from the  area it did some damage, a suburban area. Actually Istanbul remain intact. Last night a TV channel showed a recording prior the quake the famo
us mysterious lights on the sky. Lights balls appeared as non moving but fluctuating bright compacts sources. These are not look like as ionization by electrical discharges. Clearly an unknown phenomenon. They look like the light reported on UFO reports.

Time after quake was an tragedy on the towns where the major damage was occurred. Government was too late to  pickup people trapped under collapse building. They wasted first two days without knowing what they should do.
They only started efficiently to dig after 80 hours. I guess only less than one percent of the alive trapped people was rescued. Even few percent of the identified alives by detection teams was accessed because the disorganization and shortage of excavati
on kind machines.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

> ***{I know from private e-mail that Hamdi lives in the Istanbul area. Based
> on his technical orientation, I assume that he lives in an upper-class,
> high-tech area. If so, that means he probably lives in the eastern suburbs
> of Istanbul, where fully one third of Turkey's GNP is produced. Horribly,
> that is precisely where the epicenter of the earthquake occurred. Since he
> has not replied to an e-mail that I sent to him shortly after the
> earthquake occurred, there may be real cause to worry. --Mitchell Jones}***
> 
> >
> >Knuke
> >Michael T. Huffman
> >Huffman Technology Company
> >1121 Dustin Drive
> >The Villages, Florida 32159
> >(352)259-1276
> >knuke LCIA.COM
> >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 31 07:51:23 1999
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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:48:39 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC Forbidden Archeology
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Mike Carrell writes:

	I suggest Mitchell and Jed suspend judgement until my review
	appears. I said briefly that the thrust of my review is not to
	defend the thesis of Forbidden Archeology but to review the
	establishment response to the data. In many respects the book is
	an essay on epistemology and the asymmetrical treatment of weak
	observations which support the existing paradigm and strong
	observations which dissent from it.

That sounds interesting. When I say I do not mind flaky topics in I.E., I
am sincere. I would skip most of them if I were the editor, but they do not
bother me. I find it very difficult to believe there are "strong
observations" of "anatomically modern humans tens of millions of years
ago." I do not buy the infamous double standard, "extraordinary claims
require bla, bla" but I would have to see a multiplicity of results before
believing it. (The paleontological equivalent of replication.) Perhaps this
is not a fair assumption, but I think Homo sapiens has to be Homo faber,
the tool maker. We have no other means of survival. Clams make shells, bees
make hives, and people make villages, tools, and pots, paintings,
sacrifices, and burial mounds. You would have to find man-made artifacts in
the strata. If that's what the author claims . . . wow! That's a tough
sell. Kind of like this stuff about ancient visits by extraterrestrials.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 31 09:02:38 1999
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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:59:21 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Light Lepton Pair Production (0.2 ev) from Fluorescent Bulbs?
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>----- Original Message -----
>From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 8:00 PM
>Subject: Re: Light Lepton Pair Production (0.2 ev) from Fluorescent Bulbs?
>
>Robin wrote:
>
>
>> Try hanging a cloth, that develops static in a dryer, in front of a bar
>> radiator, and see if develops a charge without any tumbling action.
>>
>Interesting idea, but where is the 600 to 1000 cfm of H2O-laden air,
>in such an experiment?

***{This gives a new interpretation to the phrase "static cling"--to wit:
Frederick clinging to an untenable position. :-) --MJ}***

>
>Regards,   Frederick
>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>>
>>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 31 09:02:39 1999
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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:55:02 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: The Istanbul Quake
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>
>> >>Vo,
>> >>I don't know his private email but is Hamdi okay?
>> >>Remi.
>> >
>> >I thought I read that he was going on vacation not too long ago, and don't
>> >remember if I read that he returned.  I just saw the report on the
>> >earthquake myself, so it is quite possible that the phone lines are down or
>> >a major part of the internet in that area is inaccessable.  We'll just have
>> >to wait and hope for the best, unless there is someone in the area that can
>> >shed more light on the subject.
>>
>I was not Istanbul at the time of the quake. I live at Bosphorus area
>which is about 40 miles distance from the  area it did some damage, a
>suburban area. Actually Istanbul remain intact. Last night a TV channel
>showed a recording prior the quake the famous mysterious lights on the
>sky. Lights balls appeared as non moving but fluctuating bright compacts
>sources. These are not look like as ionization by electrical discharges.
>Clearly an unknown phenomenon. They look like the light reported on UFO
>reports.

***{If they were "non-moving" are they still there? :-) If not, what was
the manner of their disappearance? The reason I ask is that I have read a
number of reports of "ball lightning" being an earthquake precursor. While
I know for a fact that ball lightning exists--I have seen it--most of the
reports I have read suggested that it moved about. In my own experience, it
did not move. What I saw was a lightning bolt strike the ground about 200
feet to my right as I was driving down a road, and the entire ionized
pathway then broke up into a string of balls, roughly a foot in diameter,
which then simply disappeared. Moreover, there was no anomalous physics
involved: what I saw was exactly what my understanding of the physics would
have led me to expect. A ball that lingers in the sky for seconds or
minutes, or which moves about as a discrete entity, is quite another
matter. In that case, we either have some pretty anomalous plasma physics,
or else we have a UFO. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Time after quake was an tragedy on the towns where the major damage was
>occurred. Government was too late to  pickup people trapped under collapse
>building. They wasted first two days without knowing what they should do.
>They only started efficiently to dig after 80 hours.
I guess only less than one percent of the alive trapped people was rescued.

***{Unless prevented from doing so by authoritarian police and other
government functionaries, private people will immediately begin digging out
survivors after an earthquake, and they will use front loaders, bulldozers,
and other efficient means. It is a natural human response. Moreover, it
saves *lots* of lives in the net, despite the occasional person who is
crunched accidentally by shifting rubble. In the U.S., prior to the dumbing
down of the population and the institution of fascism, people would
typically work themselves into states of exhaustion in the first 48 hours
after a major quake, digging out hundreds or thousands of survivors in the
process. Even people who were not residents in the area, including even
tourists from other countries, would voluntarily roll up their sleeves and
join the effort. More and more, however, the tendency is for people to be
ordered out of disaster areas so that teams of supposedly "trained"
government employees can "save" the trapped people. As a result, a vast
reduction in the magnitude and competence of the rescue effort occurs, and
most of those who might have been saved perish needlessly. It sounds to me
like that is exactly what happened in your country. --Mitchell Jones}***

Even few percent of the identified alives by detection teams was accessed
because the disorganization and shortage of excavation kind machines.
>
>Regards,
>
>hamdi ucar
>

***{By the way, I saw predictions on the internet just prior to the quake
concerning a comet fragment that was supposed to hit that general area at
about that time, to be followed by a *much larger* fragment a month or so
later. Result: when I began reading reports of the "quake" I naturally
wondered if it really *was* a quake, and I sent you an e-mail asking about
it. (And, when you didn't reply, I concluded that you were lying at the
bottom of a pile of twisted rubble somewhere in East Istanbul. :-) Is it
possible that there is a big crater somewhere in the "earthquake" area? Is
there an area which has been cordoned off, to which access has been denied?
Or is the report I read just one more example of a crazy internet rumor?
--Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 31 10:03:53 1999
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At 07:57 PM 8/27/1999 EDT, Tstolper aol.com wrote:
>Are there any batteries that can store power quickly?
 
   NiCads (Nickel-Cadmium) and Nickel Iron.  The problem with using NiCads is cost per kilowatt/hr (you need to replace them after about 2000 deep cycles).    Nickel Iron batteries have similar (But different) problems.  The suggested cure is to build a t
all enough tower to constantly draw power from the ionosphere!  You need to get to about seven miles high.  The "good" choices are 1) use a balloon and 2) build on a mountain.  The problem with the balloon is the amount of weight you have to lift, but rec
ent results with buckytubes may fix that--they have a much lower resistance than copper. of course, to take advantage of this you would need long (meters) buckytubes in a copper matrix.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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Subject: Re: Jed Rothwell on Skeptics: some comments
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At 08:11 AM 8/30/1999 -0400, Mike Carrell wrote:
 
>I think it true that no demonstration of the evolutionary creation of a
>species has been made. One can assume that if a population of some organism
>is irrevocably divided by some natural event, that over time genetic drift
>will make crossbreeding impossible, thereby "by definition" creating
>separate species. This is an assumption. Experiments with fruit flies, which
>breed rapidly, have failed to make a species transition -- but this proves
>nothing on a larger scale.

    The evolutionists are being forced to accept "punctuated equlibrium," the idea that evolution proceeds in two distinct steps, with major jumps followed by "radiation" as the new species evolve and specialize to fit different niches.  The unpleasant tr
uth they are beginning to accept is that the punctuation is pretty violent.  A large meteor, comet, or asteriod strike produces lots of gamma radiation.  If gamma radiation kills 99.99% of the population in a large area, those remaining will have been sub
jected to a large amount of genetic modification by the gamma radiation.  Offspring of any surviving breeding pairs may be able to interbreed, producing a new species.  If there are no surviving breeding pairs, or they can't find each other?  That's what 
seems to have happened to the dinosaurs, and there is a lot of evidence for similar evolution following other strikes, some more recent.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:40:18 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Jed Rothwell on Skeptics: some comments
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>At 08:11 AM 8/30/1999 -0400, Mike Carrell wrote:
>
>>I think it true that no demonstration of the evolutionary creation of a
>>species has been made. One can assume that if a population of some organism
>>is irrevocably divided by some natural event, that over time genetic drift
>>will make crossbreeding impossible, thereby "by definition" creating
>>separate species. This is an assumption. Experiments with fruit flies, which
>>breed rapidly, have failed to make a species transition -- but this proves
>>nothing on a larger scale.
>
>    The evolutionists are being forced to accept "punctuated equlibrium,"
>the idea that evolution proceeds in two distinct steps, with major jumps
>followed by "radiation" as the new species evolve and specialize to fit
>different niches.

***{In my view, "punctuated equilibrium" is just an attempt by a minor
league intellectual to "correct" his better--i.e., Darwin--thereby
enhancing his own academic reputation. If Darwin had been asked whether
there are intervals of time during which the vector of selective pressure
points toward the mean of the existing population, he would have treated it
as a silly question, since the answer is obviously yes. There is no great
revelation there, and certainly nothing that anyone who understood
evolutionary theory ever had to be "forced" to accept. (Whether the typical
present day tenured professor has to be forced to accept such things,
however, is quite another matter, since most of them are as stupid as
posts. :-) --Mitchell Jones}***

    The unpleasant truth they are beginning to accept is that the
punctuation is pretty violent.  A large meteor, comet, or asteriod strike
produces lots of gamma radiation.  If gamma radiation kills 99.99% of the
population in a large area, those remaining will have been subjected to a
large amount of genetic modification by the gamma radiation.  Offspring of
any surviving breeding pairs may be able to interbreed, producing a new
species.  If there are no surviving breeding pairs, or they can't find each
other?  That's what seems to have happened to the dinosaurs, and there is a
lot of evidence for similar evolution following other strikes, some more
recent.

***{This is just silly. If Darwin had been asked whether a comet impact
would kill the animals in the impact area, he would have answered yes. And
if he had been asked whether, after being killed, those animals would have
been able to reproduce, he would have answered no. Result: it would have
been crystal clear to him that such impacts could influence the course of
natural selection. The analysis of such examples, of course, was not on
people's minds in his day, but the theoretical tools available then were
quite adequate to the task, had it been presented. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>                                        Robert I. Eachus
>
>with Standard_Disclaimer;
>use  Standard_Disclaimer;
>function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...

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At 01:40 PM 8/31/1999 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
 
>***{This is just silly. If Darwin had been asked whether a comet impact
>would kill the animals in the impact area, he would have answered yes. And
>if he had been asked whether, after being killed, those animals would have
>been able to reproduce, he would have answered no. Result: it would have
>been crystal clear to him that such impacts could influence the course of
>natural selection. The analysis of such examples, of course, was not on
>people's minds in his day, but the theoretical tools available then were
>quite adequate to the task, had it been presented. --Mitchell Jones}***

    What you are missing is that impacts generate a great deal of gamma radiation, and the survivors will have been subjects to (mostly) the higher end of the spectrum, since they will be far from the impact site, and the atmosphere will selectively atten
uate the lower frequencies.  So rather than one mutation, survivors can be expected to have hundreds per reproductive cell.  This is how you can have jumps such as that from dinosaur to bird.

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: mystic
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	Dear Vo.,

	Below is a sample of a "good luck" letter.  The question relates
to the so called "psychic" researches such as the ones performed at
Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research lab, or PEAR lab.
	PEAR looked at and looks at things such as remote viewing, remote
congnition and so on.

	SO:  The question is has PEAR, or any group you know of, done any
work to see the effect of these "good luck" texts?

	_______ START EXAMPLE OF GOOD LUCK TEXT  MUST BE SENT TO SEVERAL
OTHERS, THE MORE THE BETTER___________


   This tantra has been sent to you for good luck.  It has been sent
   around the world ten times so far.  You will receive good luck within

   four days of relaying this tantra.  Send copies to people you think
   need good luck, or even if you don't think they need it.

   INSTRUCTIONS FOR LIFE

   1. Give people more than they expect and do it cheerfully.

   2. Memorize your favorite poem.

   3. Don't believe all you hear, spend all you have or sleep all you
      want.

   4. When you say, "I love you", mean it.

   5. When you say, "I'm sorry", look the person in the eye.

   6. Be engaged at least six months before you get married.

   7. Believe in love at first sight.

   8. Never laugh at anyone's dreams. People who don't have dreams don't

      have much.

   9. Love deeply & passionately. You might get hurt but it's the only
      way to live life completely.

   10. In disagreements, fight fairly. No name calling.

   11. Don't judge people by their relatives.

   12. Talk slowly but think quickly.

   13. When someone asks you a question you don't want to answer, smile
       and ask,"Why do you want to know?"

   14. Remember that great love and great achievements involve great
       risk.

   15. Say "bless you" when you hear someone sneeze.

   16. When you lose, don't lose the lesson.

   17. Remember the 3 Rs: Respect for self; Respect for others;
       Responsibility for your actions.

   18. Don't let a little dispute injure a great friendship.

   19. When you realize you've made a mistake, take immediate steps to
       correct it.

   20. Smile when picking up the phone. The caller will hear it in your
       voice.

   21. Marry someone you love to talk to. As you get older, their
       conversational skills will be as important as any other.

   22. Spend some time alone.

   23. Open your arms to change, but don't let go of your values.

   24. Remember that silence is sometimes the best answer.

   25. Read more books and watch less TV.

   26. Live a good, honorable life. When you get older & think back,
       you'll enjoy it a 2nd time.

   27. Trust in God but lock your car.

   28. A loving atmosphere in your home is so important. Do all you can
       to create a tranquil and harmonious home.

   29. In disagreements with loved ones, deal with the current
       situation.  Don't bring up the past.

   30. Read between the lines.

   31. Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality.

   32. Be gentle with the earth.

   33. Pray. There's immeasurable power in it.

   34. Never interrupt when you are being flattered.

   35. Mind your own business.

   36. Don't trust a man/woman who doesn't close his/her eyes when you
       kiss.

   37. Once a year, go someplace you've never been before.

   38. If you make a lot of money, put it to use helping others while
       you are living. That is wealth's greatest satisfaction.

   39. Remember that not getting what you want is sometimes a stroke of
       luck.

   40. Learn the rules, then break some.

   41. Remember that the best relationship is one where your love for
       each other is greater than your need for  each other.

   42. Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

   43. Remember that your character is your destiny.

   44. Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon.




______________________END______________-

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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This is a huge links page.

 http://pw2.netcom.com/~sjnoll/usedequip.html

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om/~sjnoll/usedequip.html</A></BODY></HTML>

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[InternetShortcut]
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 31 14:19:25 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Light Lepton Pair Production & Wien's Displacement Law
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:15:24 -0700
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Wien's Displacement Law:

LAMBDA max *T = 2898  Micron Degrees

Thus at 2898 deg K  the peak  of a wavelength distribution curve
will be at 1.0 Microns Photon wavelength.

T   deg    K               Lambda max (microns)      Photon  (ev)

2898                                   1.0                              1.24

2000                                   1.45
0.855

1,000                                  2.898                           0.428

935                                     3.10
0.400

500 **                                5.796                          0.214

** This is about where Scott ran his Case Cell tests.

IF, 3.1 Microns (0.400 ev) is the magic number for LL Pair Production
then the 500 K temperature was too low.

OTOH, Goldilocks.    :-)

Regards,        Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 31 15:25:26 1999
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To: "Robin" <rvanspaa vic.bigpond.net.au>
Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re; Neutrino Spin
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:21:14 -0700
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Hi Robin,

The Neutrino and Antineutrino each have spin 1/2  (mcr = hbar)

Note that in the free Neutron which is basically an antineutrino and
electron,
coupled to a proton the net spin is + 1/2  and
the nuclear magnetic moment is - 1.913, where nuclear magnetic moment;
e*hbar/Mp is in units of 5.05E-27 joule/tesla.

Since the spin of the proton is +1/2 and it's nuclear magnetic moment is
+2.7928, you can figure that the electron spin opposite to the
odd-man-out  quark in the proton cancels it's spin out, but the
spin +1/2 of the antineutrino gives the neutron it's net spin of +1/2,
and the electron-quark nuclear magnetic moment is a sum (using the
above equation) that tells you how much energy it has whilst bound in the
neutron.

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 31 16:02:42 1999
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 <3.0.5.32.19990831141720.00c5e3b0 spectre.mitre.org>
 <000d01bef2e0$d0679d00$514eccd1 default>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:59:39 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Jed Rothwell on Skeptics: some comments
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>At 01:40 PM 8/31/1999 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>***{This is just silly. If Darwin had been asked whether a comet impact
>>would kill the animals in the impact area, he would have answered yes. And
>>if he had been asked whether, after being killed, those animals would have
>>been able to reproduce, he would have answered no. Result: it would have
>>been crystal clear to him that such impacts could influence the course of
>>natural selection. The analysis of such examples, of course, was not on
>>people's minds in his day, but the theoretical tools available then were
>>quite adequate to the task, had it been presented. --Mitchell Jones}***
>
>    What you are missing is that impacts generate a great deal of gamma
>radiation, and the survivors will have been subjects to (mostly) the
>higher end of the spectrum, since they will be far from the impact site,
>and the atmosphere will selectively attenuate the lower frequencies.  So
>rather than one mutation, survivors can be expected to have hundreds per
>reproductive cell.  This is how you can have jumps such as that from
>dinosaur to bird.

***{First, you seem to be under the impression that the birds appeared
after the K-T impact. However, that is incorrect. Archaeopteryx, for
example, was a creature of the Jurassic period, and lived in the midst of
the age of the dinosaurs.

Second, you seem to be under the impression that there are large
differences between dinosaurs and birds. But this is also incorrect. The
anatomical similarities between birds and dinosaurs were noticed more than
a hundred years ago, and, in recent years, it has been finally proven that
the theropod dinosaurs (e.g., T-rex) *were* birds, for all practical
intents and purposes. Recent fossils unearthed in China, for example, have
proven conclusively that theropods had feathers, and studies of their bones
have proven that their growth rates were those of warm-blooded animals.
Moreover, the cold-blooded status of even the herbivorous dinosaurs is
increasingly coming into question. Triceratops, for example, has recently
been determined to have had a line of indentations around its jaws
identical to those on the skulls of birds, which serve as attachments for
their beaks. The implication would seem to be that the triceratops had a
huge beak attached to its skull. My guess would be that it had feathers as
well.

Third, you seem to be under the impression that the rate of evolution
depends on the mutation rate. But that is false. High radiation counts
merely reduce the number of viable offspring per mating, thereby slowing
the reproductive rate. What speeds the rate of evolution within a
population is the removal of competitors that are holding nearby niches.
There is, for example, a pretty species of algae that, for decades, was
kept in salt water aquariums as a decorative plant. Result: in that
artificially constrained environment, it was enabled to occupy niches that,
in the wild, were held by other species. As a consequence, it rapidly
adapted to those new niches and, when an adapted variant was eventually
released into the Mediterranean, it began to overwhelm species that
previously had been able to hold their niches against it. As a result it is
now regarded as a nuisance plant and a foreign invader by sappy
"environmentalists." (I, on the other hand, am glad it is there: it has
added as much beauty to the underwater landscape in the Mediterranean as it
adds when present in a salt water aquarium.) Bottom line: the K-T
extinctions speeded evolution not because of gamma radiation, but by
removing vast numbers of species from their niches, thereby allowing the
species that remained to proliferate into those niches. Once there,
naturally, the selective pressures were different, and rapid evolutionary
change to adapt to the new constraints was the result.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>                                        Robert I. Eachus
>
>with Standard_Disclaimer;
>use  Standard_Disclaimer;
>function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 31 16:22:30 1999
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Subject: Re: Jed Rothwell on Skeptics: some comments
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Robert I. Eachus wrote:
> What you are missing is that impacts generate a great deal
> of gamma radiation, and the survivors will have been subjects
> to (mostly) the higher end of the spectrum, since they will
> be far from the impact site

I would think that anything within line of sight of ground
zero would be close enough to be killed by concussion waves
if not debris itself.  Anything beyond line of sight would
be beyond illumination by gamma rays.

--=20
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan yahoo.com  --  651-633-8918 -
 - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Robert I. Eachus =
wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&gt; What you are missing is =
that impacts=20
generate a great deal</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;of gamma radiation, =
and the=20
survivors will have been subjects</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;to (mostly) the =
higher end of the=20
spectrum, since they will</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;be far from the =
impact=20
site</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>I would think that anything =
within line of=20
sight of ground</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>zero would be close enough to =
be killed by=20
concussion waves</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>if not debris itself.&nbsp; =
Anything beyond=20
line of sight would</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>be beyond illumination by gamma =

rays.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>-- <BR>&nbsp;- John Logajan -- =
<A=20
href=3D"mailto:jlogajan yahoo.com">jlogajan@yahoo.com</A>&nbsp; --&nbsp; =

651-633-8918 -<BR>&nbsp;- 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) =
55112=20
USA -<BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BEF3DD.AACF8000--


_________________________________________________________
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Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 31 17:07:20 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Jed Rothwell on Skeptics: some comments
In-Reply-To: <v04011704b3f1ee1aa9f6 [207.8.127.204]>
References: <3.0.5.32.19990831145640.00c5e5e0 spectre.mitre.org>
 <v04011703b3f1cc9ec85b [207.8.127.204]>
 <3.0.5.32.19990831141720.00c5e3b0 spectre.mitre.org>
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At 05:59 PM 8/31/1999 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>***{First, you seem to be under the impression that the birds appeared
>after the K-T impact. However, that is incorrect. Archaeopteryx, for
>example, was a creature of the Jurassic period, and lived in the midst of
>the age of the dinosaurs.

     Agreed, and I didn't say otherwise.

>Second, you seem to be under the impression that there are large
>differences between dinosaurs and birds. But this is also incorrect.

     There are two major differences between birds and dinosaurs: 1) there are no live dinosaurs, 2) birds feet are significantly different.  Number two is the kind of thing I was addressing.  Birds feet and dinosaur feet are two different solutions to th
e same problem, and it is difficult to imagine getting from one to the other in small steps.  Consider a "topographic" map of feet, where height indicates favorability.  Evolution moves uphill, but between dinosaur feet and bird feet there is a chasm.  (I
n effect bird's feet are cold-blooded while the rest of the bird is not.)

>Third, you seem to be under the impression that the rate of evolution
>depends on the mutation rate. But that is false. High radiation counts
>merely reduce the number of viable offspring per mating, thereby slowing
>the reproductive rate. What speeds the rate of evolution within a
>population is the removal of competitors that are holding nearby niches.
>There is, for example, a pretty species of algae that, for decades, was
>kept in salt water aquariums as a decorative plant. Result: in that
>artificially constrained environment, it was enabled to occupy niches that,
>in the wild, were held by other species. As a consequence, it rapidly
>adapted to those new niches and, when an adapted variant was eventually
>released into the Mediterranean, it began to overwhelm species that
>previously had been able to hold their niches against it. As a result it is
>now regarded as a nuisance plant and a foreign invader by sappy
>"environmentalists." (I, on the other hand, am glad it is there: it has
>added as much beauty to the underwater landscape in the Mediterranean as it
>adds when present in a salt water aquarium.) Bottom line: the K-T
>extinctions speeded evolution not because of gamma radiation, but by
>removing vast numbers of species from their niches, thereby allowing the
>species that remained to proliferate into those niches. Once there,
>naturally, the selective pressures were different, and rapid evolutionary
>change to adapt to the new constraints was the result.

     The meteor that caused the K-T extiction was large enough that any animal within range of its radiation was killed anyway, and most of the K-T worldwide effects were due to the dust that later became the iridium-containing boundary layer.  Smaller im
pacts like the one that caused Barringer Crater in Arizona, are the ones where radiation effects can jump chasms in development.


                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 31 17:24:26 1999
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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Jed Rothwell on Skeptics: some comments
In-Reply-To: <003201bef407$95618fe0$0101a8c0 john>
References: <3.0.5.32.19990831141720.00c5e3b0 spectre.mitre.org>
 <000d01bef2e0$d0679d00$514eccd1 default>
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<excerpt>At 06:21 PM 8/31/1999 -0500, John Logajan wrote: 

  

<smaller>> I would think that anything within line of sight of ground

> zero would be close enough to be killed by concussion waves

> if not debris itself.  Anything beyond line of sight would

> be beyond illumination by gamma rays.

</smaller></excerpt>

   The trick is that the line of sight is pretty damn long.  The impact
in Siberia lit up the skies in London.  First, most of the gamma
radiation occurs above 50 miles, as the atmosphere in front of the object
is compressed into a hot plasma.  Second, the object may be approaching
at an angle, or even as in one recent case, just be a near-miss.  In
1957, a fireball streaked across the United States.  It is believed that
it would have created a Barringer sized crateer if it had hit, but it was
just slowed slightly as it passed overhead.  Finding that object is one
of the "holy grails" of asteroid hunters, because it is known that it
will hit the Earth or the Moon.  (Enough is known of its orbit to ensure
that it now crosses the eliptic at Earth, but not what its period 
is...)

<excerpt>

</excerpt><smaller>

</smaller>






                                        Robert I. Eachus


with Standard_Disclaimer;

use  Standard_Disclaimer;

function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 31 17:49:11 1999
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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 20:49:04 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Mizuno's mass spec
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Here is some info Scott Little asked for:

Mizuno's quadrupole mass spec is a Ulvac model RG-201R. He got it a big
discount for $25,000. If we can't find the specs for it on www.ulvac.com he
will fax us a spec sheet. But it does not make much difference yet because
they are still cranking it up. They have not had a chance to use it on the
cathodes yet. Until now he has had to farm out that job to various
corporations and wait for results.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 31 18:47:59 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: How's Hamdi?
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:53:34 -0400
Message-ID: <19990901015334437.AAA165 mail.lcia.com@lizard>
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Hamdi wrote:
Last night a TV channel showed a recording prior the quake the famous
mysterious lights on the sky. Lights balls appeared as non moving but
fluctuating bright compacts sources. These are not look like as ionization
by electrical discharges. Clearly an unknown phenomenon. They look like the
light reported on UFO reports.

I saw something very similar to this in the Chiknick area of Alaska.  A
fairly large ball of light that hovered over a village for about 45 minutes
or so.  The light was stationary, and was undulating in beautiful colors.
All the boat people were jabbering about it on the VHF radios.  I was
working, and couldn't watch it the whole time, so I didn't get to see how it
left, but I watched it for 10 or 15 minutes or so, and it was definitely
weird.  Another couple of friends of mine were followed by a large beam of
light in the Moses Lake area of Washington State.  There was no sound or
anything, just a big beam of bright light.  These people are both very
sophisticated, highly paid professionals (almost as cynical as me), and not
given to hallucinations or other extremely weird behavior.

Anyway, I'm relieved to hear you are alright, Hamdi.

Knuke



Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 31 19:43:56 1999
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.19990831141720.00c5e3b0 spectre.mitre.org><000d01bef2e0$d0679d00$514eccd1@default><3.0.5.32.19990831145640.00c5e5e0@spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.5.32.19990831201847.01c23b10@spectre.mitre.org>
Subject: Asteroids
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:42:52 -0500
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>> Anything beyond line of sight would
>> be beyond illumination by gamma rays.

> The trick is that the line of sight is pretty damn long.=20
> The impact in Siberia lit up the skies in London.=20
> First, most of the gamma radiation occurs above 50 miles,=20
> as the atmosphere in front of the object is compressed into
> a hot plasma. Second, the object may be approaching at an=20
> angle, or even as in one recent case, just be a near-miss.=20
> In 1957, a fireball streaked across the United States.

Your examples would seem to falsify your conjecture that
evolutionary changing levels of gamma radiation occur.
 =20
--=20
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan yahoo.com  --  651-633-8918 -
 - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -




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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY background=3D"" bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&gt;&gt; Anything beyond line =
of sight=20
would<BR>&gt;&gt; be beyond illumination by gamma rays.<BR><BR>&gt; The =
trick is=20
that the line of sight is pretty damn long. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&gt; The impact in Siberia lit =
up the skies=20
in London. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&gt; First, most of the gamma =
radiation=20
occurs above 50 miles, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&gt; as the atmosphere in front =
of the=20
object is compressed into</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;a hot plasma. =
</FONT><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Second, the object may be approaching at =
an=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&gt; angle, or even as in one =
recent case,=20
just be a near-miss. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&gt; In 1957, a fireball =
streaked across=20
the United States.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Your examples would seem to =
falsify your=20
conjecture that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>evolutionary changing levels of =
gamma=20
radiation occur</FONT>.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>-- <BR>&nbsp;- John Logajan --=20
jlogajan yahoo.com&nbsp; --&nbsp; 651-633-8918 -<BR>&nbsp;- 4234 Hamline =
Ave;=20
Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA =
-<BR><BR><BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BEF3F9.C6D97960--


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 31 19:58:01 1999
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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:44:17 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Jed Rothwell on Skeptics: some comments
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***{To John Logajan: This post came through blank on my server. Please try
again. --MJ}***

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 $514eccd1 default><3.0.5.32.19990831145640.00c5e5e0@spectre.mitre.org>
 <3.0.5.32.19990831201847.01c23b10 spectre.mitre.org>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:56:27 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Asteroids
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***{This one also came through blank. --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 31 20:48:11 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Asteroids
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:52:48 -0400
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>***{This one also came through blank. --MJ}***

Mitch,

I just got a couple of blank messages on my Netscape email program that is
wired to my Seattle account.  You probably won't be able to read this :) but
try another email program and see if it still does it.  I just read that
Hotmail was severely hacked, and in the last two days, I've had more
computer headaches than I've had in a while.  My MS dialer (the only one I
had) quit working, a dll went missing in the program directory, AND in one
of my back up directories.  It took some hours to get it back up, and I
almost pitched the whole flipping thing out the window a couple of times
today.  That, and the search boxes no longer appear on any of the Netscape
browser versions that I have.  I have to use another brand of browser just
to do websearches.  Still have to figure that one out....  Cyberwars, ARGGGG!!!

As Al Crow used to say "You got to shuck and jive to stay alive in this old
carnival world."

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 31 23:17:40 1999
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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 01:15:02 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Asteroids
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>>***{This one also came through blank. --MJ}***
>
>Mitch,
>
>I just got a couple of blank messages on my Netscape email program that is
>wired to my Seattle account.  You probably won't be able to read this :) but
>try another email program and see if it still does it.  I just read that
>Hotmail was severely hacked, and in the last two days, I've had more
>computer headaches than I've had in a while.  My MS dialer (the only one I
>had) quit working, a dll went missing in the program directory, AND in one
>of my back up directories.  It took some hours to get it back up, and I
>almost pitched the whole flipping thing out the window a couple of times
>today.  That, and the search boxes no longer appear on any of the Netscape
>browser versions that I have.  I have to use another brand of browser just
>to do websearches.  Still have to figure that one out....  Cyberwars,
>ARGGGG!!!
>
>As Al Crow used to say "You got to shuck and jive to stay alive in this old
>carnival world."
>
>Knuke

***{Whatever happened was apparently on John Logajan's end of the pipe.
Everything else is coming through fine, including your stuff. As a matter
of curiosity, were you able to read his messages? --MJ}***

>
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm