From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 06:00:35 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: ZPE "Pumping" in a Vortex?
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 06:56:16 -0700
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If the Oscillating Casimir Force, F = k/d^4 is diametrically applied to
a Vortex, it should "phase" with the radial centripital force to put
energy into it.

Secondly, if this mysterious vacuum fluctuation (force)is bounded by a
material with a dielectric constant significantly higher than that of
space, such as the water-laden perimeter of the vortex (or a bubble)
it can do more work on either.

TGIF!

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 07:06:22 1999
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 10:03:41 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Japan Nuclear Accident
In-Reply-To: <v04011700b419b115f09a [207.8.127.35]>
References: <3.0.6.32.19990930173420.00798a30 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3.0.6.32.19990930165209.0079b100 pop.mindspring.com>
 <37F3AC42.3E5F0E1D bellsouth.net>
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Mitchell Jones writes:

>But since nobody
>uses weapons grade uranium in a nuclear power plant, it would seem that the
>Japanese have managed to overcome their Hiroshima and Nagasaki induced
>aversion to nuclear weapons, and are actively, if rather incompetently,
>pursuing a nuclear weapons development program.

That's preposterous. If the voters found out the government was developing
nuclear weapons, there would be a snap election and every major member of
the ruling party would be tossed out of office. The voters will not
tolerate any hint of militarism or fascism. When one person was killed in
anti-government march in the 1960s it brought down the government.

The uranium came from French power reactors. People protested the shipments
in France and Japan, and in many other countries. The daily progress of the
ships and their punny armed guard was reported in the mass media.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 07:41:32 1999
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Lassos, Yo-Yos, and  the Casimir Force
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It's all in the wrist, isn't it?    :-)

 http://www.juggling.org/books/lasso/HTML/chap1.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 07:51:58 1999
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With Standard Disclaimer.    :-)

 http://pages.nyu.edu/~tqm3413/yoyo/index.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 08:08:19 1999
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Subject: 1D-Collision  conservation of angular momentum
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Pool shark's dream come true.


http://didaktik.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~pkrahmer/ntnujava/collision1D/colli
sion1D.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 08:24:36 1999
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References: <v04011700b419b115f09a [207.8.127.35]>
 <3.0.6.32.19990930173420.00798a30 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3.0.6.32.19990930165209.0079b100 pop.mindspring.com>
 <37F3AC42.3E5F0E1D bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 10:17:37 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Japan Nuclear Accident
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>Mitchell Jones writes:
>
>>But since nobody
>>uses weapons grade uranium in a nuclear power plant, it would seem that the
>>Japanese have managed to overcome their Hiroshima and Nagasaki induced
>>aversion to nuclear weapons, and are actively, if rather incompetently,
>>pursuing a nuclear weapons development program.
>
>That's preposterous. If the voters found out the government was developing
>nuclear weapons, there would be a snap election and every major member of
>the ruling party would be tossed out of office. The voters will not
>tolerate any hint of militarism or fascism. When one person was killed in
>anti-government march in the 1960s it brought down the government.
>
>The uranium came from French power reactors. People protested the shipments
>in France and Japan, and in many other countries. The daily progress of the
>ships and their punny armed guard was reported in the mass media.
>
>- Jed

***{With an aggressive, expansionistic Red Chinese regime looming over
them, heavily armed with nuclear weapons, members of the Japanese military
are going to be understandably nervous, and could very well be pursuing a
nuclear weapons development program in secret. Until someone explains to me
how reactor grade uranium could produce the type of "critical event" that
has been described in the press, I will continue to harbor such suspicions,
despite your certainty that they are not justified. --MJ}***


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 08:34:50 1999
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: The Conservation Of Angular Momentum
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The Conservation Of Angular Momentum
      Liftoff Home=20
          =20

      The Conservation Of Angular Momentum
              If you have Java, click on the swinging ball to change the =
string length. =20
       Take a ball attached to the end of a string and move it in a =
steady motion back and forth, like a pendulum. Once a steady swing has =
been established, take the thumb and forefinger of your other hand and =
make a circle around the top of the string. This will not interfere with =
the swing, so no change will be noticed.
      While keeping your swing steady, slowly begin to raise the hand =
holding the string. As your hand goes higher, the string begins to hit =
the side of the circle made by your fingers. As this happens, the =
frequency of the ball's movement increases. The shorter the string, the =
faster the ball travels and the further from the vertical it will go. As =
you lower the string back down, the ball will eventually return to its =
original motion.=20

      The reason for this is that the energy in the system remains =
constant as the length of the string grows shorter. This produces a =
longer and faster arc.=20


      Updated December 6, 1995. Contacts   =20


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<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy/rocket_sci/orbmech/angular_mo=
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<TABLE border=3D0>
  <TBODY>
  <TR>
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        <TR>
          <TD vAlign=3Dbottom><IMG alt=3D"Space Academy" height=3D55=20
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          <TD align=3Dright vAlign=3Dbottom><A=20
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Home</A></TD></TR>
        <TR>
          <TD colSpan=3D2 height=3D1><IMG height=3D2 =
src=3D"/home/blackdot.gif"=20
            width=3D"100%"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- BEGIN DOCUMENT =
-->
      <H2 align=3Dcenter>The Conservation Of Angular Momentum</H2>
      <TABLE>
        <TBODY>
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          <TD><APPLET code=3DConserveAngle.class height=3D250 =
width=3D250></APPLET>=20
          </TD>
          <TD><B>If you have Java, click on the swinging ball to change =
the=20
            string length.</B> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><IMG =
align=3Dleft=20
      src=3D"Freq_Increase.GIF"> Take a ball attached to the end of a =
string and=20
      move it in a steady motion back and forth, like a pendulum. Once a =
steady=20
      swing has been established, take the thumb and forefinger of your =
other=20
      hand and make a circle around the top of the string. This will not =

      interfere with the swing, so no change will be noticed.
      <P>While keeping your swing steady, slowly begin to raise the hand =
holding=20
      the string. As your hand goes higher, the string begins to hit the =
side of=20
      the circle made by your fingers. As this happens, the frequency of =
the=20
      ball's movement increases. The shorter the string, the faster the =
ball=20
      travels and the further from the vertical it will go. As you lower =
the=20
      string back down, the ball will eventually return to its original =
motion.=20
      <P>The reason for this is that the energy in the system remains =
constant=20
      as the length of the string grows shorter. This produces a longer =
and=20
      faster arc.=20
      <P>
      <ADDRESS>Updated December 6, 1995. <A=20
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DOCUMENT --></TD>
    <TD width=3D40>&nbsp;</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 08:47:02 1999
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 11:38:40 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Japan Nuclear Accident
In-Reply-To: <v04011700b41a7eae53e9 [207.8.127.84]>
References: <3.0.6.32.19991001100341.0079b2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <v04011700b419b115f09a [207.8.127.35]>
 <3.0.6.32.19990930173420.00798a30 pop.mindspring.com>
 <3.0.6.32.19990930165209.0079b100 pop.mindspring.com>
 <37F3AC42.3E5F0E1D bellsouth.net>
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Mitchell Jones writes:

>***{With an aggressive, expansionistic Red Chinese regime looming over
>them, heavily armed with nuclear weapons, members of the Japanese military
>are going to be understandably nervous, and could very well be pursuing a
>nuclear weapons development program in secret.

Could well? Yeah, sure, until a reporter hears about it. The next day it
would be on in 30 point type on the front of every newspaper with 6 pages
of inside coverage, like the accident yesterday. (I subscribe to the
Yomiuri.) A week later the Generals would be hauled before a Parliament
Investigation and every single person who had any knowledge of the program
would be fired. Actually, they would quit, after they get on their knees
and bowed their heads down to the floor in front of the public on
prime-time news. That's what the plant manager and President of the nuclear
fuel corporation did yesterday. It was broadcast on CNN and every Japanese
network.

People take responsibility for their actions in Japan. If anyone did
anything remotely like this, or even wrote a memo suggesting they develop
nuclear weapons, his career would be over. It is a free society with a
aggressive press -- more aggressive than ours. Reporters make themselves at
home in politicians houses, and ask anything. If George W. Bush was running
in Japan, every schlock magazine and newspaper would publish a picture of
the triangular fraternity brand on his ass, and they would have in-depth
interviews with guys who claim they were George's pushers.

The idea that the Japanese military might develop nuclear weapons in secret
is the kind of thing you read in a dime-novel American thriller written by
some jerk who knows zippo about Japan. It is utter garbage. They only thing
they do in secret is take bribes for overpriced, non-working weapons
systems from corrupt manufacturers.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 08:54:52 1999
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	Fri, 1 Oct 1999 08:49:43 -0700
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 11:48:24 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Human Error
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Idiotic mistakes are in the news. They remind us that no machine is safe
from human nature, and no technology that depends up perfect performance
can be relied upon.

The accident at the nuclear plant yesterday was caused by three workers
mixing in 16 kg of materials instead of 2.4 kg. If they were not doomed I
might call them the Three Stooges (San-baka Taishou in Japanese). If the
tank had been designed properly, the accident could never have occured in
the first place, no matter how much U you cram in. According to experts
quoted the N. Y. Times, correct tank size and geometry can prevent this
kind of accident. For example a tall, thin tube shape would prevent most
neutrons from stiking another U atom, damping a chain reaction.

The space probe sent to Mars burned up because the manufacturer computed
thrust in pounds and the JPL technicians thought the units were in newtons.
Why anyone  would use English measurements in this day and age is beyond
me. Hundreds of millions of dollars down the tubes because people insist on
using a confusing system of measurements that has been obsolete for 150 years!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 09:27:12 1999
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Lassos, Yo-Yo-s and  the Casimir Force
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 10:20:27 -0700
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=20
Equipment:

  a.. conical pendulum - shelf 5A=20
  b.. table clamp, clamp - hall cabinet=20
  c.. support rod - bucket beside hall cabinet=20
  d.. two 200 g masses - shelf 4D=20
  e.. billiard ball with hook - ball drawer=20
  f.. string=20
Theory: An object experiencing uniform circular motion must have an =
unbalanced force acting on it, directed toward the center of the =
circular path.=20

Description: The billiard ball has a mass of about 200 g, so it is =
balanced by one of the hooked 200 g masses. When the second 200 g is =
hooked to the first, the masses drop to the table and the ball is pulled =
to the top of the conical pendulum - clearly the ball is incapable of =
balancing the 400 g mass. When the ball is set into circular motion, =
however, it will balance the 400 g mass.=20

Setup time: 10 minutes=20

References: (available in the demo room)

  a.. Sutton, "Demonstration Experiments in Physics", M-138, p. 61.=20
Other demonstrations in this category : Ball on a string 1D50.10 -- =
Carnival ride model 1D50.30 -- Pail of water 1D50.40 -- Penny on a =
coathanger 1D50.45 -- Rolling chain 1D50.70=20

Previous category : Motion of the center of mass - Meter stick with 3 =
lights 1D40.10=20

Next category : Deformation by central forces - Flattening earth 1D52.10 =



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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><IMG =
src=3D"http://buphy.bu.edu/~duffy/mech/1D50_20.GIF">=20
<P><STRONG>Equipment:</STRONG>
<UL>
  <LI>conical pendulum - shelf 5A=20
  <LI>table clamp, clamp - hall cabinet=20
  <LI>support rod - bucket beside hall cabinet=20
  <LI>two 200 g masses - shelf 4D=20
  <LI>billiard ball with hook - ball drawer=20
  <LI>string </LI></UL>
<P><STRONG>Theory: </STRONG>An object experiencing uniform circular =
motion must=20
have an unbalanced force acting on it, directed toward the center of the =

circular path.=20
<P><STRONG>Description: </STRONG>The billiard ball has a mass of about =
200 g, so=20
it is balanced by one of the hooked 200 g masses. When the second 200 g =
is=20
hooked to the first, the masses drop to the table and the ball is pulled =
to the=20
top of the conical pendulum - clearly the ball is incapable of balancing =
the 400=20
g mass. When the ball is set into circular motion, however, it will =
balance the=20
400 g mass.=20
<P><STRONG>Setup time: </STRONG>10 minutes=20
<P><STRONG>References: </STRONG>(available in the demo room)
<UL>
  <LI>Sutton, "Demonstration Experiments in Physics", M-138, p. 61. =
</LI></UL>
<P>Other demonstrations in this category : <A=20
href=3D"http://buphy.bu.edu/~duffy/mech/1D50_10.html">Ball on a =
string</A>=20
<STRONG>1D50.10</STRONG> -- <A=20
href=3D"http://buphy.bu.edu/~duffy/mech/1D50_30.html">Carnival ride =
model</A>=20
<STRONG>1D50.30</STRONG> -- <A=20
href=3D"http://buphy.bu.edu/~duffy/mech/1D50_40.html">Pail of water</A>=20
<STRONG>1D50.40</STRONG> -- <A=20
href=3D"http://buphy.bu.edu/~duffy/mech/1D50_45.html">Penny on a =
coathanger</A>=20
<STRONG>1D50.45</STRONG> -- <A=20
href=3D"http://buphy.bu.edu/~duffy/mech/1D50_70.html">Rolling chain</A>=20
<STRONG>1D50.70</STRONG>=20
<P>Previous category : Motion of the center of mass - <A=20
href=3D"http://buphy.bu.edu/~duffy/mech/1D40_10.html">Meter stick with 3 =

lights</A> <STRONG>1D40.10</STRONG>=20
<P>Next category : Deformation by central forces - <A=20
href=3D"http://buphy.bu.edu/~duffy/mech/1D52_10.html">Flattening =
earth</A>=20
<STRONG>1D52.10</STRONG> </P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 09:31:26 1999
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Bubbles
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 09:27:15 PDT
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Vince writes:

>  Cold days=more lift, hot days=less lift. The colder air is, the more 
>dense
>it is. (air molecules packed closer together than
>relatively hotter air)

Do you not see that it is the density imballance that causes the lift?

Do you not see that it is gravity that pulls the more dense beneath the less 
dense?

Do you not see that the heat in the balloon is not being used up for 
propulsion?  That it sets density off balance, then gravity takes over and 
supplies the energy of motion to the lift itself?

You agree the same as in the bubble.  Is it not gravity that raises the 
bubble?

Science speaks of a buoyancy force.  Is buoyancy a force of nature?

Is it not really gravity that is pulling the more dense beneath the less 
dense?

And if space is fluid and space is more dense than light, would not gravity 
pull the more dense space beneath the less dense light, thus repel?

School children have written to me and say they understand these most basic 
fundamental concepts, but their teachers don't.  This list of such high 
thinkers seems baffeled by the concepts.

Has the whole world gone mad with delusion?   Dogmatized by science and 
hypnotized by some wicked spiritual lie.  Looks that way to me.

"build the whirlpool, that's all it takes"

How long will ignorance keep us down?

David



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 10:01:31 1999
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Human Error
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 09:56:31 PDT
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Jed writes:

>Idiotic mistakes are in the news. They remind us that no machine is safe
>from human nature, and no technology that depends up perfect performance
>can be relied upon.

There is no more same and and beautiful machine than Whirlpower.  It follows 
the pattern nature has shown to us freely.  For years I have screamed as 
loud as I can "build the whirlpool, that is all it takes"!

Only to be scorned, ridiculed, and ignored.

But, I have just been informed, "the jewel for the crown has just been set". 
  Tears are streaming down my face.

Aquarius is here.

David


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 10:13:46 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 10:12:25 -0700
From: "Walter Joseph Kovacs" <formula409 hotbot.com>
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David:
For more than a year you've done nothing to accept your own challenge.  Claiming something and doing something about it are two different things.  If you truly believe you've done your part and expect to do no more, then plan on a long life of regret and 

disappointment.  Not really that suprising to hear that no one has volunteered to do your work for you.  You obviously do not really believe in it enough to spend your own time developing it, how do you expect to inspire another?

No insult intended.
 
---
"Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes"


On Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:12:53   David Dennard wrote:
>To all,
>
>and Hi George, I didn't know were here.  :)
>
>If anyone here can point me to a picture, a drawing, a theory, anything 
>about a whirlpool being built and tested by science I would greatly 
>apreciate it.  I asked last year and nobody could.  I have asked on many 
>lists for years and nobody can.  If you can and it has been tried please 
>tell me.
>
>If not, where is you people's curiosity.  Are there no real scientists left 
>in the world that can meet my challenge?  Puharich challenged me 22 years 
>ago after I wrote "The Crossroads" to find "The Holy Grail".  If he were 
>still alive I would know where to take it but he is dead.  What am I 
>supposed to do with it?  My being "in sackcloth and ashes" was the "way" to 
>find it!  I did my job!
>
>David Dennard
>The Phoenix
>http://www.whirlpower.cc
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>


HotBot - Search smarter.
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 10:43:39 1999
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Whirlpool Test
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 10:41:25 PDT
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Walter writes:

>For more than a year you've done nothing to accept your own challenge.

How little you know.

>Claiming something and doing something about it are two different things.

I've made no false claims, only asked a simple experiment be performed.

>If you truly believe you've done your part and expect to do no more, then 
>plan on a long life of regret and disappointment.

I expect to do much more.  In fact, I'm just getting started.

>Not really that suprising to hear that no one has volunteered to do your 
>work for you.

Many are helping.

>You obviously do not really believe in it enough to spend your own time 
>developing it, how do you expect to inspire another?

I have spent 22 years on this.  I did notfind the Holy Grail in some text 
book.  But in a real life seach down the narrow path, not the broad way.

>No insult intended.

I am not insulted, just sad that it took so long to find any that would help 
me.  But now that has changed.  The new list is up and has lots of people on 
it that go back to my very beginings on the internet.  Some that even put me 
down at first.  Very few from this  list will be invited.

David




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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 11:17:15 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Japan Nuclear Accident
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>Mitchell Jones writes:
>
>>***{With an aggressive, expansionistic Red Chinese regime looming over
>>them, heavily armed with nuclear weapons, members of the Japanese military
>>are going to be understandably nervous, and could very well be pursuing a
>>nuclear weapons development program in secret.
>
>Could well? Yeah, sure, until a reporter hears about it. The next day it
>would be on in 30 point type on the front of every newspaper with 6 pages
>of inside coverage, like the accident yesterday.

***{I am far from an expert on Japan, but I assume that a reporter who
divulged classified information in that country would be subject to
imprisonment, as would any person who passed such information to him. If
that is not the case, then Japan is an odd duck indeed, as nations go. Even
in the U.S., which has far more freedom of speech than most nations, there
are severe penalties for divulging top secret information. (The WWII
Manhattan Project, our own nuclear weapons development program, was kept
out of the press by means of precisely those sorts of severe sanctions,
despite the fact that many people in the physics community knew about it
and, according to your reasoning, should has passed that information to
reporters who, in turn, should have printed it.) --Mitchell Jones}***

  (I subscribe to the
>Yomiuri.) A week later the Generals would be hauled before a Parliament
>Investigation and every single person who had any knowledge of the program
>would be fired.

***{If that is the case, then the Japanese are insane, because without a
nuclear deterrent, they are guaranteed to someday be subjected to the same
sort of bullying and intimidation that Red China is presently visiting upon
Taiwan, with the very distinct possiblity of eventual occupation of Japan
by Chinese troops. They have already been forced to submit to a foreign
occupation army once by means of nuclear weapons, and they are utter
cretins if they permit themselves to remain vulnerable to such threats.
Frankly, I think they are smarter than that. If so, then controlling
elements in both the executive and legislative branches of the Japanese
government are aware of the existence of the program, and a sufficient
number of intelligence operatives are in place in the mainstream Japanese
press to keep such a story out of the mass media. The likelihood, in short,
is that the Japanese government has procedures in place to keep top secret
information from leaking to the mainstream press that are very much like
those employed by the U.S. government. --Mitchell Jones}***

 Actually, they would quit, after they get on their knees
>and bowed their heads down to the floor in front of the public on
>prime-time news. That's what the plant manager and President of the nuclear
>fuel corporation did yesterday. It was broadcast on CNN and every Japanese
>network.

***{When an accident occurs that would tend to reveal the existence of a
classified program, it is normal to invoke a cover story of some sort, in
order to put the genie back into the bottle. My assumption is that the
behavior you describe is merely part of that effort. --MJ}***

>
>People take responsibility for their actions in Japan. If anyone did
>anything remotely like this, or even wrote a memo suggesting they develop
>nuclear weapons, his career would be over. It is a free society with a
>aggressive press -- more aggressive than ours. Reporters make themselves at
>home in politicians houses, and ask anything. If George W. Bush was running
>in Japan, every schlock magazine and newspaper would publish a picture of
>the triangular fraternity brand on his ass, and they would have in-depth
>interviews with guys who claim they were George's pushers.
>
>The idea that the Japanese military might develop nuclear weapons in secret
>is the kind of thing you read in a dime-novel American thriller written by
>some jerk who knows zippo about Japan. It is utter garbage. They only thing
>they do in secret is take bribes for overpriced, non-working weapons
>systems from corrupt manufacturers.

***{Let me see if I've got this straight: you are telling me that you
believe Japan has no intelligence community, and no classified information?
Surely you jest. --MJ}***

>
>- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 11:33:52 1999
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Subject: Re: Bubbles
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In a message dated 10/1/99 9:31:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
daviddennard hotmail.com writes:

>  Do you not see that it is the density imbalance that causes the lift?

Agreed

>  
>  Do you not see that it is gravity that pulls the more dense beneath the 
less
>  dense?
 
Not at all. The greater density air completely surrounds the balloon.

  
>  Do you not see that the heat in the balloon is not being used up for 
>  propulsion?

Agreed. The heat is radiated to the surrounding air and needs to be 
continually
added...if not...the hot air inside the balloon cools and the balloon 
descends.

>  That it sets density off balance, then gravity takes over and 
>  supplies the energy of motion to the lift itself?

 No, gravity isn't supplying the energy, the burning of propane in the 
heater is supplying the energy. If you don't burn propane the balloon won't 
rise.
 Is not the combustion of a gas, in this case propane, supplying the
energy to the system (the interior of the balloon)?
>  
>  You agree the same as in the bubble.  Is it not gravity that raises the 
>  bubble?

 No, the bubble has less mass than the water it displaces. Gravity pulls less 
on the bubbles mass than the surrounding mass of liquid and the bubble rises. 
 

>  Science speaks of a buoyancy force.  Is buoyancy a force of nature?

I have no idea. I never completed my training at Nature University. :)
  
>  Is it not really gravity that is pulling the more dense beneath the less 
>  dense?

No, as I previously stated, The more dense medium completely surrounds
the less sense (the balloon or a bubble of air in a liquid).

 Are you saying the surrounding air is MORE dense BENEATH the 
balloon than ABOVE it?
  
>  And if space is fluid and space is more dense than light, would not 
gravity 
>  pull the more dense space beneath the less dense light, thus repel?

Give me an example where this happens.
 I seem to recall an experiment where a star that was behind the sun during
a total eclipse of the sun was visible due to gravity bending the light 
(photons)
of the star. 
If gravity did not ATTRACT light the star would not have been visible, but it 
was.
 This experiment has been repeated many times and gravity bends (attracts) 
the light by exactly the predicted amount.
  
>  School children have written to me and say they understand these most 
basic 
>  fundamental concepts, but their teachers don't.  This list of such high 
>  thinkers seems baffled by the concepts.

I don't claim to be a "high thinker" but I too, am baffled.
>  
>  Has the whole world gone mad with delusion?   Dogmatized by science and 
>  hypnotized by some wicked spiritual lie.  Looks that way to me.

No comment on the state of the worlds delusion, I have other things to worry 
about.
>  
>  "build the whirlpool, that's all it takes"
>  How long will ignorance keep us down?

Well David, may I suggest you get busy and build it?  If you have a concept 
you
want to try, why not try it. I did and am continuing to do so. Cost me a 
couple of  $K
so far but that's OK....hobbies cost. Some more, some less, and it keeps me
off the streets, plus I'm having fun.

So go at it and report your results here on Vortex-L. That's what this list 
is for.
Just remember to keep good notes on the project and don't be embarrassed to
ask for help or advise
  
>  David
>  

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas Nevada

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 11:49:41 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: VCockeram aol.com
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Subject: Question for David D. Re: Bubbles
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	Dear David,

	How do you measure the density of light and space?

	Either relative or absolute density is OK

	AND:  I may be wrong is my concept of density....

	Doesn't sort of mean "how much stuff in given area"  and weight is
how much gravity affects stuff?

				J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 12:15:33 1999
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Bubbles
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 12:12:19 PDT
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Vince writes:

> >  Do you not see that it is the density imbalance that causes the lift?
>
>Agreed
>
> >
> >  Do you not see that it is gravity that pulls the more dense beneath the
>less
> >  dense?
>
>Not at all. The greater density air completely surrounds the balloon.
>
>
> >  Do you not see that the heat in the balloon is not being used up for
> >  propulsion?
>
>Agreed. The heat is radiated to the surrounding air and needs to be
>continually
>added...if not...the hot air inside the balloon cools and the balloon
>descends.

Here we see a contridiction.  Vince agrees the heat is not being used for 
propulsion but says gravity is not either.  So where is the propulsion 
coming from if it is not coming from the heat of the balloon or from 
gravity's pull on the more dense?

> >  That it sets density off balance, then gravity takes over and
> >  supplies the energy of motion to the lift itself?
>
>  No, gravity isn't supplying the energy, the burning of propane in the
>heater is supplying the energy. If you don't burn propane the balloon won't
>rise.
>  Is not the combustion of a gas, in this case propane, supplying the
>energy to the system (the interior of the balloon)?

It only sets the relative density off balance.  It does not supply energy of 
motion.  And I bet a good physicists could show the weight the balloon and 
the distance traveled cannot be explained by the amount of heat in the 
ballon by thermodynamic reasoning, and I bet is not just a little 
unexplained but %90 unexplained as is the motion of the spiral galaxy in 
Vera Rubins's study.


> >  You agree the same as in the bubble.  Is it not gravity that raises the
> >  bubble?
>
>  No, the bubble has less mass than the water it displaces. Gravity pulls 
>less
>on the bubbles mass than the surrounding mass of liquid and the bubble 
>rises.

Saying gravity pulls less on the bubble's mass than the surrounding mass of 
liquid is the same as saying gravity pulls more on the surrounding mass than 
the bubble's mass.  Gravity makes the bubble rise either way you say it.  
Take the set up out of a gravity field and there would be no motion.  Same 
with a hot air balloon.
>
>
> >  Science speaks of a buoyancy force.  Is buoyancy a force of nature?

>
>  Are you saying the surrounding air is MORE dense BENEATH the
>balloon than ABOVE it?

No, the air is more dense outside the balloon than in it.  But it does get 
less dense the higher you go.  So it would be correct to say that air below 
the ballon is more dense the air above it.

> >  And if space is fluid and space is more dense than light, would not
>gravity
> >  pull the more dense space beneath the less dense light, thus repel?
>
>Give me an example where this happens.
>  I seem to recall an experiment where a star that was behind the sun 
>during
>a total eclipse of the sun was visible due to gravity bending the light
>(photons)
>of the star.
>If gravity did not ATTRACT light the star would not have been visible, but 
>it
>was.
>  This experiment has been repeated many times and gravity bends (attracts)
>the light by exactly the predicted amount.

NO IT HAS NOT!  It has never reached 1.75 from every account I have heard.  
Science dances around the exactness of the measurements with so called error 
bars, or as Vera Rubin writes in her article science "teases the numbers" to 
make it work out.  See my post "Light on Dark Matter"

David


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 12:37:41 1999
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John Schnurer wrote:

>
>
>         AND:  I may be wrong is my concept of density....
>
>         Doesn't sort of mean "how much stuff in given area"  and weight is
> how much gravity affects stuff?
>
>                                 J

   "how much MASS in given VOLUME"  and weight is
THE FORCE OF gravity PULLING ON stuff?
Patrick....

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 12:54:53 1999
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There's information on some of the newsgroups that 18 volunteer
technicians entered the facility to mix boron in the tank and
stop the chain reaction.  They are being called the "kamakaze"
technicians since they will likely not survive.  (Neither did
many of the volunteer firemen at Chernobyl.)

Has anyone seen this in any "legitimate" reports?

Terry

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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re; David's "Whirlpower" Theory & The Casimir Force Connection?
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 14:22:14 -0700
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Aside from "Whirlpower" being a trademark for a powertool, gravity aside,
the Casimer Force, F = k/d^4 might sustain a water (high-dielectric)
cavity in a rotating "drum", as is suggested for Waterspouts and Hurricanes
that lose their oomph over land as they lose water.

 http://i-cafe.net/~dhubcal/whirlpower/ovrvw2.html

Centrifugal Cavitaion in a Rotating Drum:

Force Cent. (Gs) = 14.2E-6*D*N^2 = 0.75(V^2/D)

D (dia inches)
V (peripheral velocity feet/sec)
N (revs/minute)

Drum Dia (in)       RPM                Gs                   Feet/sec

    24                   2,400             2,000                   250
    24                   1,400              670                     150

With 2 inch thick Lucite (plexiglass) end caps and the shell from a 55
gallon drum,
filled 3/4 full with water, and spun up to some rpms comparable to
a catagory 4 Hurricane, ~300 FPS,  The Casimir effect might let it spin on
it's own
and turn a generator shaft.

No Smileys, I'm Serious.

Regards,      Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 14:23:01 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Whirlpower: Gravity-Buoyancy or Casimir Force, or Both?
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 15:18:51 -0700
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I posted this question the other day, before David came in
feet first with Whirlpower.  :-)

Hydrogen Balloons & Payload:

Balloon weight;   1.0-1.4 kg
Lift Force            1.0-1.5 Kg
H2 Used              120 Ft^3
Init Dia                 6.5 Ft
Dia 90,000-100,000  ~= 25 ft 
Ascent rate;    1,000 +100 -50 Ft/minute

Attained potential energy (mgh) ~ 4.0E5 nt-meters or joules

Payloads of ~ a tonne (2200 lbs) have been carried to 100,000 ft,
that's 2.2E8 ft-lbs or ~2.83E5 btu (~3.0E8 joules)

Is that work all gravity-buoyancy or is it assisted by the gravity-opposing
Casimir Force?

Regards,     Frederick
    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 14:49:14 1999
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Subject: Re: Whirlpower: Gravity-Buoyancy or Casimir Force, or Both?
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Frederick -

> Attained potential energy (mgh) ~ 4.0E5 nt-meters or joules

And how fast was it rising when it reached that altitude - its KE? Overunity
balloon power? <g>

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 14:51:28 1999
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Mitchell Jones writes:

	I am far from an expert on Japan, but I assume that a reporter
	who divulged classified information in that country would be
	subject to imprisonment

Nope. As long as he wasn't the one who stole it.


	. . . as would any person who passed such information to him.

Yup.


	If that is not the case, then Japan is an odd duck indeed, as
	nations go. Even in the U.S., which has far more freedom of
	speech than most nations, there are severe penalties for
	divulging top secret information.

Divulging, yes, but not publishing. There are no restrictions on publishing
in peacetime. See the Pentagon Papers case.


	(The WWII Manhattan Project, our own nuclear weapons development
	program, was kept out of the press by means of precisely those
	sorts of severe sanctions . . .

During WWII there was explicite, emergency censorship. The censorship board
closed the day after the Japanese surrendered.


	If that is the case, then the Japanese are insane, because
	without a nuclear deterrent, they are guaranteed to someday be
	subjected to the same sort of bullying and intimidation . . .

Are Mexico or Canada in danger of being subjected to nuclear intimidation?
How about Brazil, Cuba, or Zimbabwe? I don't think so! Nuclear weapons are
useless. Everyone knows that China will not use theirs except in extreme
duress or perhaps if a supreme ruler goes insane.


	. . . and a sufficient number of intelligence operatives are in
	place in the mainstream Japanese press to keep such a story out
	of the mass media.

Intelligence operatives have no control whatever over the Japanese or U.S.
press. They cannot prevent anything from being printed. They might be able
to plant stories from time to time. I've known some genuine, living,
breathing intelligence operatives (all dead now) and I assure you, they
were ordinary folks with a job to do and no extraterrestrial powers over
the minds of editors.


	The likelihood, in short, is that the Japanese government has
	procedures in place to keep top secret information from leaking
	to the mainstream press that are very much like those employed
	by the U.S. government.

The U.S. government has never been able to keep important secrets out of
the press.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 14:56:47 1999
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 18:02:08 -0400
From: Norm Biss <normpems erie.net>
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To all list members:

I have been asked to send this message in regards to Dennis Lee's "Tour".

Thank You.

Norm Biss
Erie, Pa.
10-1-99

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Dennis Lee is on the road!]
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 02:13:37 GMT

To: normpems erie.net

Norm,

  can you please respond with the following message: 


Dear Vortex people,

"Eric-the-skeptic" here.  I recommend people to go to the Dennis Lee shows 
with an open mind and closed wallet.  I feel the show is unintentionally 
entertaining - you will never see a more fanatical raving mixture of 
conspiracy theory, Jesus talk, and butchered science all wrapped into a 
giant pyramid scam.  Early reports say that most of his audience seems to 
buy it . . . I call that a high cost of sleeping through science class.  
This is an important time for Dennis, he has just about financially drained 
his current crop of followers from his 96 tour which promised the same damn 
stuff - now is his chance to recruit all new sources for financiing.  Dennis 
has been stringing people along with "I'll install them in a few months" for 
12 years - maybe he can someday break Newmans 30 year record.
   I encourage people to alert TV and newspaper investigative reporters 
along the route to this operation.  Use search engines to find them and then 
give them the show information and my url at:
http://www.phact.org/e/dennis.html
I can offer more information offlist on working with the press.  There are 
even some brave people who have been passing out information on Dennis's 
real history before the shows.  Bring a meter and offer to expose the 
improper input power readings. (it turns that Jim Murphy was asked by Dennis 
to fake OU by using wrong amp meter resistors).  So again, do go to the show 
near you - you will never hear a snake oil salesman work a crowd like Dennis 
does.

Eric Krieg  eric phact.org


>From: Norm Biss <normpems erie.net>
>To: eric voicenet.com
>Subject: [Fwd: Dennis Lee is on the road!]
>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 21:16:08 -0400
>
>Eric,
>
>Thought you might be interested in this.
>
>Regards,
>
>Norm
>
>
>
>
>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: Dennis Lee is on the road!
>Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 09:06:23 -0700
>Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:04:49 -0500
>From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>
>Check out
>
>http://www.teslaelectriccompany.com
>
>Apparently Dennis Lee is already immersed in his US tour of demonstrations
>of his 200% efficient motor which capitalize on the 4th Law of Motion.
>Today he's in Kansas City, tomorrow Springfield, MO, Saturday Tulsa, etc.
>
>I am hoping some Vorts along his route will attend one of these demos and
>report back.
>
>My turn won't come until he visits Dallas Oct 30 or Houston Nov 1.
>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 15:04:06 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Japan Nuclear Accident
In-Reply-To: <37F50FC4.42EE97BB bellsouth.net>
References: <v04011700b41a7eae53e9 [207.8.127.84]>
 <3.0.6.32.19991001100341.0079b2d0 pop.mindspring.com>
 <v04011700b419b115f09a [207.8.127.35]>
 <3.0.6.32.19990930173420.00798a30 pop.mindspring.com>
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Terry writes:

>There's information on some of the newsgroups that 18 volunteer
>technicians entered the facility to mix boron in the tank and
>stop the chain reaction.  They are being called the "kamakaze"
>technicians since they will likely not survive.  (Neither did
>many of the volunteer firemen at Chernobyl.)

Well, that's an exaggeration. Who would do that? The thing was in no danger
of exploding. Here are the facts as reported on the Yomiuri English home
page and elsewhere in the Japanese press.

- JR


In order to remove the water, JCO workers broke part of the
water-circulating pipe and injected into the tank boron compounds, which
are believed to absorb neutrons. ['Believed to' is a funny way to put it --
it's a translation.]

As radioactivity remained high, the staff worked in shifts of a few minutes
each. 

Despite such precautions, some workers were found to have exposure levels
of up to 91.3 millisieverts, compared with 50 msv, the annual maximum
permissible level of exposure to radiation according to government
guidelines. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 15:20:54 1999
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Mitch,

There is a reason Aviation Weekly is referred to as Aviation Leakly.

Bill
webriggs concentric.net
briggs XLNsystems.com


<snips>

>       If that is not the case, then Japan is an odd duck indeed, as
>       nations go. Even in the U.S., which has far more freedom of
>       speech than most nations, there are severe penalties for
>       divulging top secret information.

>Divulging, yes, but not publishing. There are no restrictions on publishing
>in peacetime. See the Pentagon Papers case.

>The U.S. government has never been able to keep important secrets out of
>the press.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 16:08:06 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <199910011747427.SM00354 [192.168.0.2]>
Subject: Re: Whirlpower: Gravity-Buoyancy or Casimir Force, or Both?
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:59:38 -0700
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----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, October 01, 1999 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: Whirlpower: Gravity-Buoyancy or Casimir Force, or Both?

Rick wrote:


> Frederick -
>
> > Attained potential energy (mgh) ~ 4.0E5 nt-meters or joules
>
> And how fast was it rising when it reached that altitude - its KE?
Overunity
> balloon power? <g>

Well Rick, according to Glaisher's ascent on Sept. 5, 1862:

Before the ascent his pulse was 76/min, 90/min  10,000 ft, 100/min@20,000
ft,
110/min at higher elevations. "his inspirations increased also", and he
became insensible
at 29,000 ft. He figured he had reached 37,000 feet , because when he passed
out
at 29,000 the balloon was rising at 1,000 ft/minute and when he regained
consciousness
13 minutes later the balloon was falling at 2,000 ft/minute.
The accuracy of his conclusions has been questioned.  :-)

OTOH, if you absorb the 120 Cubic Ft of H2  with 0.12 Ft^3 of Pd or charcoal
you can get Overunity balloon power?

Regards,   Frederick




>
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 16:52:45 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 19:48:06 EDT
Subject: Re: ORDER  Fluorescein Dye
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In a message dated 9/29/99 10:00:30 PM, herman antioch-college.edu writes:

<<  1,000A is 100 nM  ... pretty brifrloo SHORT!  This would burn the
hide OFF you!

> 
> The subject of EUV comes up because Randell Mills says that EUV is emitted 
by 
> hydrino-forming reactions.  In the Ni/H2O/K2CO3 electrolytic cells, the 
> temperature of the K2CO3 electrolyte was usually below the boiling point.  
In 
> the electrolytic cells, the strongest EUV would be emitted at about 304 Å, 
I 
> think.
> 
    I don't think 100 nM would pass the medium, or if it did, then not
too far, maybe  couple mm.

    You might mean 304 nm... but that is not EUV.

    Double check and give the the figure in nano meters... Then I can
tell you.
 >>

John,

     Yes, 304 Å (30.4 nm) would burn the hide off one, and yes, water is 
opaque to EUV.  So are glass and quartz.  That's why the EUV is sometimes 
called the vacuum ultraviolet.  

     So the question becomes, what fluorescing compound dissolved in the 
electrolyte could reveal EUV like that in an electrolytic cell running a 
potassium carbonate electrolyte below the boiling point?  
     
     It would have to be something that didn't inhibit the dissociation of 
hydrogen at the nickel cathode, because Mills' reaction requires neutral 
atoms of H rather than molecules of H2.

Tom Stolper

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Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 03:06:36 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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9/30/99  Researchers at the University of Michigan College of Engineering (U-M; Ann
Arbor; 734-763-6008) have found an inexpensive way to produce relatively pure
amounts of materials, sorted by atomic weight, across the entire spectrum of
elements. The technique uses only a tabletop laser and a 1-in disk of target material.
Unlike gaseous diffusion, the separation method does not require huge
electromagnets, nor does it leave behind many cross-contaminated byproducts.


http://www2.photonicsonline.com/content/news/article.asp?DocID={A5BBC7C2-7525-11D3-9A64-00A0C9C83AFB}&Bucket=HomeFeaturedArticles&VNETCOOKIE=NO




If this link is too long. goto www.photonicsonline.com

Regards, hamdi ucar

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Subject: What's New for Oct 01, 1999

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 1 Oct 99   Washington, DC

1. MISTAKE ONE: NASA FLUNKS METRIC CONVERSION.  Converting from
one system of units to another has been the downfall of countless
students of science.  Now we learn that confusion over units also
spelled doom for the Mars Climate Orbiter.  NASA is scurrying to
figure out how the error could have gone undetected, but the most
shocking revelation is that the agency that has come to symbolize
high-technology has not fully converted to metric.  A spokesman
at NIST seemed unconcerned by the glacial progress of the metric
conversion initiative.  Metrification, he explained, will come
gradually with usage as the younger generation is exposed to it.

2. MISTAKE TWO: JAPANESE WORKERS ADD TOO MUCH URANIUM.  This is
reported to be the world's 60th criticality accident since 1945. 
The problem occurred at a uranium processing plant when too much
uranium was added to a mixing tank.  The off-site risk appears to
be small, but the incident reawakens public concern just as there
were signs that the moribund nuclear power industry in the US
might still have a pulse.  It may be significant that in all the
news stories about the accident, the amount of uranium involved
was given in pounds rather than kilograms. 

3. MISTAKE THREE: DEMOCRATS THREATEN TO LAUNCH BIG PUSH ON CTBT.
Yesterday, Majority Leader Trent Lott (R-MS) called their bluff,
scheduling an Oct. 8 vote on the test ban treaty, without benefit
of hearings and after only ten hours of debate.  It was seen as a
test of party loyalty, and influential Sen. John Warner (R-VA),
who was believed to be leaning toward the treaty, announced that
he now planned to vote against it.  Under those circumstances it
would be unlikely that the treaty would get the needed 67 votes. 
That set off a flurry of negotiating.  The latest word is that
there is an agreement to put off the vote until Oct. 18. 

4. MISTAKE FOUR: WHAT'S NEW GOOFS IN FREE ELECTRICITY STORY.  We
apologize to the Wall Street Journal.  WN reported that the WSJ
had carried a full-page ad on Sep 17 for a demonstration of free-
electricity (WN 24 Sept 99).  Wrong!  The ad was actually carried
by USA Today, although the WSJ carried such an ad two years ago
(WN 18 Jul 97). Dennis Lee, CEO of Better World Technologies, has
now launched his 45 city tour.  At a meeting in Columbus, Ohio
Lee urged people to sign up to get a free electricity machine
installed in their homes and get disconnected from the grid
before the Y2K crisis.  He explained that the government's plan
is to deliberately create a crisis so "they can declare martial
law and take your guns away."  He said their ad had gotten the
attention of "just about every attorney general in the country." 
He wouldn't actually demonstrate the free electricity technology.
"If you show a free electricity machine," he explained, "they
will shut you down."  He said he did that in 1988 and they put
him jail. "I'm doing this for one reason only--God said 'do it.'"

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

--------------69BBE3D3C21D5E34D8B2048C--

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Here is the latest news from the Yomiuri and Asahi Japanese language sites.

Two of the three workers who caused the accident had no experience or
training. The third had not performed the procedure in two years and he had
no experience working with this grade of uranium. They overloaded the tank
in order to get the job done quickly. Apparently they did not realize why
the rules limited the mass of uranium in the tank.

There was no special shielding in the walls of the room with the tank.

The designated evacuation centers in the town have no supplies of iodine,
water, food or protective clothing, even though nuclear fuel processing is
a major industry there, and a nuclear power plant is nearby.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 21:10:16 1999
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Quotes from the Yomiuri English site:

"It takes time to follow the normal procedures, but a large quantity of
uranium can be processed if we do it in the sedimentation tank," the worker
was quoted as saying after being admitted to a hospital on Thursday. "I
never thought about critical mass."

Several of the worker's bosses also told police that "the workplace was
characterized by inertia," admitting some stipulated procedures were
skipped in the past.

. . . According to the operating manual, workers must put the material in a
dissolution tank and mechanically transfer the material through a pipe into
the sedimentation tank.

The three workers who were exposed to radiation skipped the two procedures.
Instead, they put the material in stainless containers and poured the
material slowly into the sedimentation tank through funnels.

The operating manual stipulates that up to 2.4 kilograms of uranium may be
processed for fuel during one operation. But it was revealed that workers
were trying to process about 16 kilograms of uranium.

"It is possible that they skipped the procedures in an attempt to process a
large quantity of uranium efficiently," Makoto Morita, chief of the general
affairs department of the JCO office. "It is possible that this was done so
in accordance with normal workplace practice."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 21:24:03 1999
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Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 14:22:52 +1000
Organization: Improving
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On Fri, 01 Oct 1999 11:48:24 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
[snip]
>The space probe sent to Mars burned up because the manufacturer computed
>thrust in pounds and the JPL technicians thought the units were in newtons.
>Why anyone  would use English measurements in this day and age is beyond
>me. Hundreds of millions of dollars down the tubes because people insist on
>using a confusing system of measurements that has been obsolete for 150 years!
>
>- Jed
This sounds almost too ludicrous to be true. Surely measurements are
routinely supplied with their dimensions specified at the end. If not,
anyone trying to use them would immediately ask what the dimensions are.
It sounds more like a typical excuse "designed for the layman" to me.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 22:36:17 1999
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Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 22:33:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Invisible substance formula
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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David Jonsson wrote:
> I saw on television once a substance made out of some gel that was solid
> but had the same refractive index as air so it appeared invisible. Can
> someone tell me how to produce this medium? 
> 
> If I remember correctly they used a gel (gelatin in Swedish) which they
> mixed with alcohol. Then they used high pressure during several hours.

This sounds a lot like a silica gel material. I think it even has a trade
name, something like Aerogel. The material I am thinking of is a silica gel
that is only about 1/1000 silica, the rest being air. However, the air spaces
are so small, very much less than the wavelength of visible light, that light
is not scattered like in colloids and such. The light propagates as if
through a uniform medium. And since it has so little silica in it, its index
of refraction is barely greater than air. Therefore, a piece of it is almost
indistinguishable from air. It also has very low mass density and low thermal
conducitvity. I saw a piece of it once, maybe about three years ago. BTW, the
finished product is not a gel. However, I think a gel process is used to make it.

=====
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 22:55:11 1999
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
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For information on silica Aerogels:

     http://eande.lbl.gov/ECS/Aerogels/satoc.htm


=====
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  1 23:09:30 1999
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From: Cheryl <nerdess earthlink.net>
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Robin,

I think you are right.
Having worked at JPL myself for seven years, I can tell
you that while the launch date is true drop-dead line, the
people on a project have AMPLE time to check, recheck and
check again every little thing. When the design is
finished you spend the next 8-15 months in endless peer
review; and that's true for every little sub-section of a
mission. Almost to the point of frustration. (O.K.! It's
ready already! Fire it up and put me on another project!)
Quite unlike the commercial world I now am in, where you
are shipping a product before the toner is set on the
LaserJet. Hey, there's always Rev. B! 

I can't believe that a couple of technicians misreading a
specification was the cause of this. At least I sincerely
hope not. Seems silly at first, but makes me wonder. Maybe
"Better, Faster, Cheaper"  has gone WAY too far.

Regards,
Cheryl

-- 
Tomorrow, Tomorrow!
It's only a da-ay a-waay!
(Uh, that's Friday mate)
___

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  2 06:57:48 1999
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Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 10:01:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Help with PINE
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	Dear Vo.,

	I am needed some help with the PINE mail program.  Is there a
place to get a Pine for dunderheads text?

	I wish to learn how ot do the archive function to compress some of
my mail files.... any help?

		John

	HELP !!!!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  2 07:27:19 1999
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Cheryl wrote:

>
> I can't believe that a couple of technicians misreading a
> specification was the cause of this. At least I sincerely
> hope not. Seems silly at first, but makes me wonder. Maybe
> "Better, Faster, Cheaper"  has gone WAY too far.

EW:
In my 12 years at FAA, I was appalled at the decline in the manner in
which technical oversight of maintenance of the air traffic equipment
was performed.  When I first started, I was told by older technicians
that things had slipped a lot in recent years (1986), but we were
getting newer equipment.  The newer equipment required less intensive
maintenance, but it had been bought with the promise that cutbacks in
staffing could be immediate and drastic.  I saw one radar pressed into
service against all good technical advice (I wasn't allowed into that
conference, even though I was working on the installation), mandated
from Washington, in order to meet a congressional deadline, only to
learn of a couple of dozen outages in the following month, which went
unrecorded in the logs.  The cutbacks were made in technical staff, not
in managerial, but the initial need for intense technical proficiency on
the new equipment went unfilled to a large part.  There were many, many
unscheduled outages of radar due to technical incompetence, which was
bad enough, but the long term result was that the respect for technical
proficiency is sharply diminished.  People gain advances in the agency
based on quotas and being 'team players'.

So, why don't we have more planes bumping into each other?  There was a
lot of room for error in the system, but that shrinks every year.  The
main reason is that pilots make the decisions.  Air traffic controllers
only give advice, although you wouldn't know it if you heard them talk.

My guess is that in the Japanese nuclear industry, like in Paducah, KY,
people failed to take expert advice seriously, perhaps largely because
clowns like to disguise themselves as experts, so all experts start to
look like clowns.  If prestige is not based on ability (meritocracy), it
is based on much less optimal characteristics, like how good you can
make your supervisor look.

I am presently aware of a lawsuit against FAA filed by a techician, whom
I believe to be highly competent, who was fired for alleged
incompetence.  It has been quite a learning experience.

Ed Wall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  2 08:47:48 1999
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Cheryl wrote:
> 
> Robin,
> 
> I think you are right.
> Having worked at JPL myself for seven years, I can tell
> you that while the launch date is true drop-dead line, the
> people on a project have AMPLE time to check, recheck and
> check again every little thing. When the design is
> finished you spend the next 8-15 months in endless peer
> review; and that's true for every little sub-section of a
> mission. Almost to the point of frustration. (O.K.! It's
> ready already! Fire it up and put me on another project!)
> Quite unlike the commercial world I now am in, where you
> are shipping a product before the toner is set on the
> LaserJet. Hey, there's always Rev. B!
> 
> I can't believe that a couple of technicians misreading a
> specification was the cause of this.

If you can't believe that, do you have any alternative theories, such as
the idea that the probe might have been "shot down" somehow? 

I gather that this probe would have been able to give us much higher
resolution photos of Martian "Anomalies" such as the "face" "Cydonia"
and etc. Do you think there could have been any possibility of
deliberate sabotage or anything like that? It's great to have someone
like yourself here with actual JPL experience. Welcome.

Jim Ostrowski



 At least I sincerely
> hope not. Seems silly at first, but makes me wonder. Maybe
> "Better, Faster, Cheaper"  has gone WAY too far.
> 
> Regards,
> Cheryl
> 
> --
> Tomorrow, Tomorrow!
> It's only a da-ay a-waay!
> (Uh, that's Friday mate)
> ___

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  2 09:29:22 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Human Error
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At 02:22 PM 10/2/99 +1000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>This sounds almost too ludicrous to be true. Surely measurements are
>routinely supplied with their dimensions specified at the end. 

A similar mistake happened on the Hubble Space telescope.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  2 10:01:54 1999
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>The space probe sent to Mars burned up because the manufacturer computed
>thrust in pounds and the JPL technicians thought the units were in newtons.
>Why anyone  would use English measurements in this day and age is beyond
>me. Hundreds of millions of dollars down the tubes because people insist on
>using a confusing system of measurements that has been obsolete for 150
years!

Why anyone would want to change a measurement system after a thousand years
of use is beyond me. :)

Craig Haynie (Houston)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  2 11:16:28 1999
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Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 13:09:31 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Japan Nuclear Accident
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>Mitchell Jones writes:
>
>	I am far from an expert on Japan, but I assume that a reporter
>	who divulged classified information in that country would be
>	subject to imprisonment
>
>Nope. As long as he wasn't the one who stole it.
>
>
>	. . . as would any person who passed such information to him.
>
>Yup.
>
>
>	If that is not the case, then Japan is an odd duck indeed, as
>	nations go. Even in the U.S., which has far more freedom of
>	speech than most nations, there are severe penalties for
>	divulging top secret information.
>
>Divulging, yes, but not publishing. There are no restrictions on publishing
>in peacetime. See the Pentagon Papers case.
>
>
>	(The WWII Manhattan Project, our own nuclear weapons development
>	program, was kept out of the press by means of precisely those
>	sorts of severe sanctions . . .
>
>During WWII there was explicite, emergency censorship. The censorship board
>closed the day after the Japanese surrendered.
>
>
>	If that is the case, then the Japanese are insane, because
>	without a nuclear deterrent, they are guaranteed to someday be
>	subjected to the same sort of bullying and intimidation . . .
>
>Are Mexico or Canada in danger of being subjected to nuclear intimidation?

***{By the U.S.? That's an interesting question. At the moment, the answer
is probably no. However, given the direction in which the U.S. is headed,
it seems obvious to me that the answer to that question could change in
short order. Logically, any parasitic elite that wishes to retain control
over its host population should implement a nuclear weapons development
program, because without such weapons, *any* nation becomes a potential
target for a U.S. backed "UN peacekeeping force", once the proper pretext
has been set up. Indeed, I am not surprised that the advocates of global
government, with virtual uniformity, are also advocates of nuclear
non-proliferation. A gang of U.N. thugs can be assembled which is capable
of successfully invading any nation on earth, except a nuclear nation. In
that case, the risk of a horrific counterstrike simply becomes too great.
--MJ}***

>How about Brazil, Cuba, or Zimbabwe? I don't think so! Nuclear weapons are
>useless.

***{The Japanese have already been brought to their knees once by means of
nuclear weapons, and there are guaranteed to be people in the Japanese
military who have drawn the proper conclusion from that fact--to wit: that
if Japan is to be safe from nuclear intimidation in the future, it must
possess nuclear weapons of its own. --MJ}***

Everyone knows that China will not use theirs except in extreme
>duress or perhaps if a supreme ruler goes insane.

***{Top Chinese leaders routinely threaten to launch nuclear missiles at
the United States and brag that, due to their overpopulation problem, they
would actually benefit from a nuclear exchange. Do such statements fit your
definition of "insane"? --MJ}***

>
>	. . . and a sufficient number of intelligence operatives are in
>	place in the mainstream Japanese press to keep such a story out
>	of the mass media.
>
>Intelligence operatives have no control whatever over the Japanese or U.S.
>press. They cannot prevent anything from being printed.

***{Under fascism, the upper echelons of the "private" sector--i.e., the
heads of major corporations, newspaper editors, news anchors, Hollywood
directors and producers, movie stars, etc.--run in the same circles as the
top politicians and bureaucrats in the government. They are friends, attend
the same parties, send their children to the same elite private schools,
and they all "go along in order to get along." This cozy relationship
exists because, by virtue of the vastness of the regulatory structure and
the complexity of the laws, *connections* are essential to success in most
industries. What this means in practice is that a story which the
government wants to squelch will *be* squelched--in the major media. And,
since the mass of the population gets its information exclusively from the
major media, it follows that when a story fails to appear there it might as
well not exist at all, from the standpoint of its effects on the outcome of
elections, and, thus, on the policies of government. Bottom line: in order
to control a democratic nation, a parasitic elite merely needs to control
the mass media, since the common man gets his information only from
approved sources, and believes what he is told. [Controlling a republic is
quite another matter. A republic (e.g., America as designed by the
founders) is a nation with a constitutionally limited government, and an
electoral system carefully designed to prevent mob rule. In such a nation,
a would-be parasitic elite would have to control *all* the media, in order
to squelch a story, because the electorate of such a nation is dominated by
persons who think for themselves.] --Mitchell Jones}***

They might be able
>to plant stories from time to time. I've known some genuine, living,
>breathing intelligence operatives (all dead now) and I assure you, they
>were ordinary folks with a job to do and no extraterrestrial powers over
>the minds of editors.

***{Extraterrestrial powers are not necessary. What is required, and what
is in fact the reality of the situation, is that the owners of the mass
media behave as if they are a part of the ruling elite. They do this
because their rise to media preeminence was greased by favors from persons
in the power structure, and, now that they are members of that power
structure themselves, they return the favor. This means that stories which
would loosen the parasitic elite's grip on the reins of power will be
killed. This occurs routinely, despite not being mentioned in the
historical pablum that is served up to naive students in the public
schools, and I have no doubt that the situation in Japan is no different
than here. --MJ}***

>
>
>	The likelihood, in short, is that the Japanese government has
>	procedures in place to keep top secret information from leaking
>	to the mainstream press that are very much like those employed
>	by the U.S. government.
>
>The U.S. government has never been able to keep important secrets out of
>the press.

***{You have to distinguish between the mainstream media and the
independent media. The mainstream media are the exclusive source of news
for the conformist masses who dominate elections in democratic nations. If
the mainstream media ignore a story, it cannot threaten the power
structure, and thus the ruling elite isn't likely to worry about it. They
don't care if some small circulation journal breaks a story that would
transform the political landscape if widely believed, because their cronies
control the media which are required to give the story wide dissemination.
Bottom line: all the Japanese authorities need to do to contain the
suggestion that they are using weapons grade uranium, is to put out the
word that the story needs to be squelched *in the mass media*. They don't
care what we say about it here on vortex, or if small, independent Japanese
media pick up the story, because the independent media lack the ability to
influence elections. --MJ}***

>
>- Jed

***{I should reiterate, before closing this message, that my primary
objections to the present mass media explanation of the Japanese nuclear
accident are *technical*. I simply do not see how such an accident would be
possible if they were processing reactor grade uranium. Think about it: do
you really believe that all one needs to do to produce a massive energy
release is to mix some mildly enriched uranium hexafluoride with nitric
acid? U235 only produces 2.5 neutrons per fission, and they are fast
neutrons (average energy, about 1 MeV) with very low capture cross
sections. Thus when working with reactor grade uranium (which is mostly
U238) you need a moderator--a carefully chosen low-A material with a small
neutron capture cross section (e.g., carbon)--to slow the neutrons down
enough to make the reaction go. This is a deliberate safety precaution.
Reactor grade uranium, by definition, is enriched *just enough* so that a
carefully designed reaction vessel is required to make the reaction go.
What that means is that an accident of the type described is *physically
impossible*, if we presume that reactor grade uranium was being used. Thus
I regard this accident as *smoking gun proof* that the Japanese are engaged
in a clandestine nuclear weapons development program. And to that I say:
good for them! --Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  2 11:38:16 1999
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 <2of1Nz1oq9VQz9tCYmRNW030tyZ7 4ax.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 13:20:47 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Human Error
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>>The space probe sent to Mars burned up because the manufacturer computed
>>thrust in pounds and the JPL technicians thought the units were in newtons.
>>Why anyone  would use English measurements in this day and age is beyond
>>me. Hundreds of millions of dollars down the tubes because people insist on
>>using a confusing system of measurements that has been obsolete for 150
>years!
>
>Why anyone would want to change a measurement system after a thousand years
>of use is beyond me. :)
>
>Craig Haynie (Houston)

***{The advantages of the metric system were significant in the days before
the advent of the microcumputer and the hand-held calculator. Today,
however, they are negligible: silicon chips and software algorithms don't
care whether the numbers you plug in are in English units or in metric
units. They will give you the same answer, and take the same amount of time
to do it. Bottom line: there is no longer any valid reason for pushing
everybody to switch to metric, and, as a result, that campaign has lost its
momentum. --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  2 15:23:35 1999
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Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 17:18:27 -0500
From: "Patrick V. Reavis" <preavis ro.com>
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Subject: Re: Invisible substance formula
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990930140709.20518E-100000 metro.bahnhof.se>
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David Jonsson wrote:

> I saw on television once a substance made out of some gel that was solid
> but had the same refractive index as air so it appeared invisible. Can
> someone tell me how to produce this medium?
>
> If I remember correctly they used a gel (gelatin in Swedish) which they
> mixed with alcohol. Then they used high pressure during several hours.
>
> David
>

 http://aerogel.msfc.nasa.gov/

What is aerogel?
                           It's the lightest solid
                           known -- only three
                           times the density of
                           air. It can protect
                    virtually anything from heat or
                    cold. A block the size of a human
                    weighs less than a pound, but is
                    able to support the weight of a
                    subcompact car. It's aerogel, a
                    space-age super material. Aerogel
                    produced on Earth is cloudy, but
                    scientists hope to produce a
                    transparent variety in space that
                    could lead to advances such as
                    super-insulating windows and
                    extraordinary high-speed
                    computers.


--
Regards,
Patrick V. Reavis
http://ro.com/~preavis
http://ro.com/~preavis/Quiz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  2 16:08:05 1999
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Invisible substance formula
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 19:11:40 -0400
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Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com> wrote:


>For information on silica Aerogels:
>
>     http://eande.lbl.gov/ECS/Aerogels/satoc.htm
>
This is a great link Michael, lots of useful information.
I wonder if the carbon aerogels described could provide a better
substrate for platinum in gas phase D2, Case style cold
fusion. These carbon areogels are already used as cathodes
for removing heavy metals from solution. 
-
George Holz                    Varitronics Systems
732-356-7773                   george varisys.com
1924 US Hwy 22 East        Bound Brook NJ 08805

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  2 16:37:11 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 19:36:05 EDT
Subject: Re: "Levitron" maglev device
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Bill,

In the second of Rod Driver's articles about the levitating magnetic toy 
called the Levitron, he concluded:

"A further reason that Harrigan failed to market his levitation device after 
1983 was his preoccupation with another invention -- a simple instrument 
about the size of a telephone handset for resuscitating victims of cardiac 
arrest. Harrigan keeps one of these nearby at all times, and wears it in a 
holster on his belt when he leaves the house. But that is a story for another 
article."

If a tale similar to the one about the Levitron unfolded about this 
potentially life-saving heart device, how would you feel about that?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  2 18:09:34 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
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To: Vortex

After reviewing some science relating to refraction of waves by glass
and the physics of a Vortex I tried a simple experiment:

A glass jar about a liter capacity was suspended by a string (24")through 
a hole in the middle of the lid. The jar rotates Counterclockwise gaining
some rotational speed until the torsion builds up on the string.

Releasing the string to let it relax allows repitition. Removing the 
metal lid seems to recharge the thing too.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  2 20:19:59 1999
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Latest news on nuclear accident "... by hand"
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  They did the mixing "by hand".
  
  
"From the accounts of three workers severely 
injured in Thursday's inadvertent nuclear reaction, 
it emerged that staff bypassed normal procedures
to mix a uranium-nitric acid solution in a 
stainless steel bucket by hand."

http://208.138.42.193/forum/a37f684b1575f.htm



   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  2 23:19:02 1999
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Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 01:13:48 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
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>To: Vortex
>
>After reviewing some science relating to refraction of waves by glass
>and the physics of a Vortex I tried a simple experiment:
>
>A glass jar about a liter capacity was suspended by a string (24")through
>a hole in the middle of the lid. The jar rotates Counterclockwise gaining
>some rotational speed until the torsion builds up on the string.
>
>Releasing the string to let it relax allows repitition. Removing the
>metal lid seems to recharge the thing too.  :-)
>
>Regards,    Frederick

***{The fibers in most string type materials (e.g., cotton thread) are
wound in a spiral. Result: if you hang a weight from it, it unwinds,
causing the suspended object to spin; and, if you relax the string, it will
wind back up again, allowing repetition. There is nothing anomalous
involved here. You can prove this to yourself by detaching the string,
turning it upside down, and hooking it up that way. If you do, the
direction of rotation will reverse, because the fiber spiral within the
string will be in the opposite direction. --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  2 23:20:19 1999
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 <3.0.1.32.19991001234735.0068858c pop.mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 01:03:39 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Latest news on nuclear accident "... by hand"
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>  They did the mixing "by hand".
>
>
>"From the accounts of three workers severely
>injured in Thursday's inadvertent nuclear reaction,
>it emerged that staff bypassed normal procedures
>to mix a uranium-nitric acid solution in a
>stainless steel bucket by hand."
>
>http://208.138.42.193/forum/a37f684b1575f.htm

***{Thanks for the additional info. This is getting more and more
impossible to believe. Apparently some scientific illiterate was in charge
of spin control for this incident, and concocted a ludicrous cover story
which implies that reactor grade uranium hexafluoride, which is available
in massive quantities in all the advanced countries and in many others that
are not advanced, could simply be mixed with nitric acid in a stainless
steel bucket and used to silently kill huge numbers of people, if the
circumstances were appropriately chosen. If such a story were true, all
terrorists would have to do would be obtain some reactor grade uranium
hexafluoride on the black market and replicate this absurd scenario at a
location where large numbers of people could be counted on to remain nearby
long enough to acquire a lethal dose--e.g., at the Super Bowl, or in a
broom closet at a large apartment complex, or at a rock concert, etc.--and
the results would be utterly horrific. Thus, if this story is to be
believed, we shouldn't be worrying about black market plutonium from the
former Soviet Union, but about black market uranium hexafluoride that could
be obtained in most nations. And, of course, nuclear power becomes, by
virtue of this obvious lie, infinitely more sinister and dangerous than the
worst of the prior technophobic scare stories ever painted it to be.
--Mitchell Jones}***

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>It sounds more like a typical excuse "designed for the layman" to me.

>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

Richard C. Hoagland, NASA gadfly, thinks so too. I just listened to Art
Bell's interview of Richard on 09/23/99 on real audio. In a series of
interviews on this venue, Richard has stated that he believes that there is
a cabal of occultists. These people are in positions of power and wealth.
Some of them are in NASA. They want to keep high resolution photos of
Cydonia from the public. This also applies to pictures of artifacts on the
moon, UFO's and the "aliens"that come out of them. Only there is no
evidence to indicate that they come from anywhere else but here. I prefer
the explanation that they have the ability to enter other dimentions
myself.

I applaud Mr. Richard's efforts to dig out these people's activities. Since
I am a Christian who believes in scriptural inerrorancy, I also believe
that there are people who worship Lucifer as God. Their adgenda is to bring
about a one world government. Their name for this is the New World Odor, I
mean Order. In other words, Mr. Richard's beliefs exactly parallel mine.
However since Richard is not a Christian, their activities make no sense to
him, where as they exactly fit with the biblical paradigm.

Why they would be so interested in keeping what ever is at Cydonia out of
the public's eye mystifies me however. I also question the public's
inability to handle official acknowledgement of UFO's without going into a
panic. I can understand them not wanting the public to know that they are
working with the "aliens" however.

If the info for the thrusters was that screwed up, how did that prove get
all the way to Mars? Don't they have to use it for midcourse corrections?


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 00:45:28 1999
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Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 03:49:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
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	String and glass jar...
	What does the rotation have to do with your refraction?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 00:46:58 1999
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Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 02:42:49 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
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>>To: Vortex
>>
>>After reviewing some science relating to refraction of waves by glass
>>and the physics of a Vortex I tried a simple experiment:
>>
>>A glass jar about a liter capacity was suspended by a string (24")through
>>a hole in the middle of the lid. The jar rotates Counterclockwise gaining
>>some rotational speed until the torsion builds up on the string.
>>
>>Releasing the string to let it relax allows repitition. Removing the
>>metal lid seems to recharge the thing too.  :-)
>>
>>Regards,    Frederick
>
>***{The fibers in most string type materials (e.g., cotton thread) are
>wound in a spiral. Result: if you hang a weight from it, it unwinds,
>causing the suspended object to spin; and, if you relax the string, it will
>wind back up again, allowing repetition. There is nothing anomalous
>involved here. You can prove this to yourself by detaching the string,
>turning it upside down, and hooking it up that way. If you do, the
>direction of rotation will reverse, because the fiber spiral within the
>string will be in the opposite direction. --MJ}***

***{I tried the above experiment, and despite my confident statement,
above, it didn't work! The rotation continued to be in the counterclockwise
direction, even when the thread was turned upside down! This leaves me
rather flummoxed, because I remain absolutely certain that the spinning of
the suspended object is due to the unwinding of the string. (If it were due
to an external force, then the top of the string could be tied to a low
friction swivel and it would rotate forever.) What am I missing? Hmm. I
see: it's a visual fallacy. The direction of a spiral does not reverse when
it is turned upside down. One type of spiral will always unwind in the
counterclockwise direction, and the other type will always unwind in the
clockwise direction (when viewed from above). Since it appears that normal
thread is of the counterclockwise variety, however, my suggested
experimental test, above, will not work. So here is another test: try
suspending various randomly selected objects from the thread. You will
discover that they all rotate in the same direction. (Yes, this time I
actually tried it before suggesting it!) --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 01:04:51 1999
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Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 01:03:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: ron kita <tekcorman yahoo.com>
Subject: ZPE Motor/Torsion Problem
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When ever I do experiments involving torsion,
I use fishing line monofiliment and two fishing
swivels
at both ends of the line.....it is NOT perfect, but
it solves  the thread twist problem.

Best,
Ron Kita
Antigravitics_R_US



=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 02:47:54 1999
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Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 03:44:13 -0700
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----- Original Message -----
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 1999 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?

Mitchell Jones wrote:

>
> >
> >***{The fibers in most string type materials (e.g., cotton thread) are
> >wound in a spiral. Result: if you hang a weight from it, it unwinds,
> >causing the suspended object to spin; and, if you relax the string, it
will
> >wind back up again, allowing repetition. There is nothing anomalous
> >involved here. You can prove this to yourself by detaching the string,
> >turning it upside down, and hooking it up that way. If you do, the
> >direction of rotation will reverse, because the fiber spiral within the
> >string will be in the opposite direction. --MJ}***
>
> ***{I tried the above experiment, and despite my confident statement,
> above, it didn't work! The rotation continued to be in the
counterclockwise
> direction, even when the thread was turned upside down! This leaves me
> rather flummoxed, because I remain absolutely certain that the spinning of
> the suspended object is due to the unwinding of the string. (If it were
due
> to an external force, then the top of the string could be tied to a low
> friction swivel and it would rotate forever.) What am I missing? Hmm. I
> see: it's a visual fallacy. The direction of a spiral does not reverse
when
> it is turned upside down. One type of spiral will always unwind in the
> counterclockwise direction, and the other type will always unwind in the
> clockwise direction (when viewed from above). Since it appears that normal
> thread is of the counterclockwise variety, however, my suggested
> experimental test, above, will not work. So here is another test: try
> suspending various randomly selected objects from the thread. You will
> discover that they all rotate in the same direction. (Yes, this time I
> actually tried it before suggesting it!) --MJ}***
>
Yep. I read your response, went and used the toilet, flushed it, and sure
enough the water swirls Counterclockwise, too.   :-)

After reversing the string as you suggested I went to a 20 lb monofilament
fishing line and got some Clockwise rotation, but the preferred rotation
is CCW with angular acceleration until the line torsion resists it.

I had reasoned that a transverse "ZPE Wave" would pass from inside the
glass jar (with Index of Refraction; sin(incidence)/sin(refraction ~= 1.5
and impart a torque to it giving it spin.

The jar is from 28 Oz. of *Prego* Spaghetti sauce, (with mushrooms)so
I have several to try. :-)

Filled with water it must weigh close to a Kg, and it still does it, but
the monofilament line is rough on the fingers.

One might try a Plumb Bob, I guess.

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 02:52:58 1999
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Subject: Re: ZPE Motor/Torsion Problem
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: ron kita <tekcorman yahoo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 1999 1:03 AM
Subject: ZPE Motor/Torsion Problem

Ron Kita wrote:

> When ever I do experiments involving torsion,
> I use fishing line monofiliment and two fishing
> swivels
> at both ends of the line.....it is NOT perfect, but
> it solves  the thread twist problem.

I used 20 Lb monofilament line (used for shark fishing in Arizona)Ron, 
but I won't have any
swivels until I make the 7 block trek to Wal-Mart.  

Regards,    Frederick
> 
> Best,
> Ron Kita
> Antigravitics_R_US
> 
> 
> 
> =====
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 04:06:54 1999
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Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 01:06:07 -1000
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Frederick -

Good grief, this is hilarious. What if it's for real. Nawww...

Well if nothing else, you might have just outdone the SMOT. I sure wish
Tinsley was still around.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

> To: Vortex
>
> After reviewing some science relating to refraction of waves by glass
> and the physics of a Vortex I tried a simple experiment:
>
> A glass jar about a liter capacity was suspended by a string (24")through
> a hole in the middle of the lid. The jar rotates Counterclockwise gaining
> some rotational speed until the torsion builds up on the string.
>
> Releasing the string to let it relax allows repitition. Removing the
> metal lid seems to recharge the thing too.  :-)
>
> Regards,    Frederick
>
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 04:10:42 1999
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I don't know, Thomas. People really do screw things up that bad sometimes
without the help of the devil, aliens, or even their Uncle Sam. It just
happens. Now if you will excuse me, I have a sink full of uranium
hexaflouride and HNO3 I have to go knead with my hands.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

> Richard C. Hoagland, NASA gadfly, thinks so too. I just listened to Art
> Bell's interview of Richard on 09/23/99 on real audio. In a series of
> interviews on this venue, Richard has stated that he believes that there is
> a cabal of occultists. These people are in positions of power and wealth.
> Some of them are in NASA. They want to keep high resolution photos of
> Cydonia from the public. This also applies to pictures of artifacts on the
> moon, UFO's and the "aliens"that come out of them. Only there is no
> evidence to indicate that they come from anywhere else but here. I prefer
> the explanation that they have the ability to enter other dimentions
> myself.
>
> I applaud Mr. Richard's efforts to dig out these people's activities. Since
> I am a Christian who believes in scriptural inerrorancy, I also believe
> that there are people who worship Lucifer as God. Their adgenda is to bring
> about a one world government. Their name for this is the New World Odor, I
> mean Order. In other words, Mr. Richard's beliefs exactly parallel mine.
> However since Richard is not a Christian, their activities make no sense to
> him, where as they exactly fit with the biblical paradigm.
>
> Why they would be so interested in keeping what ever is at Cydonia out of
> the public's eye mystifies me however. I also question the public's
> inability to handle official acknowledgement of UFO's without going into a
> panic. I can understand them not wanting the public to know that they are
> working with the "aliens" however.
>
> If the info for the thrusters was that screwed up, how did that prove get
> all the way to Mars? Don't they have to use it for midcourse corrections?
>
>
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 04:21:44 1999
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Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
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----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 1999 4:06 AM
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?

Rick wrote:


> Frederick -
>
> Good grief, this is hilarious. What if it's for real. Nawww...

Sure is, Rick, whatever it is. :-)

Following Mitchell Jones' advice, While looking for a Plumb Bob
I grabbed a Coil spring from my junk drawer, It's about 3/4" O.D. with
~0.080" dia wire tightly wound and about 2" long with loops at each end it
must weigh about 50 grams.

I attached a thread to a loop at one end and suspended it. It Reved up to
about
30 RPM until the thread torsion slowed it down. With a swivel it should go
like
gangbusters.
>
> Well if nothing else, you might have just outdone the SMOT. I sure wish
> Tinsley was still around.

So do I, I sure miss Ole Chris.

Regards,     Frederick
>
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
>
> > To: Vortex
> >
> > After reviewing some science relating to refraction of waves by glass
> > and the physics of a Vortex I tried a simple experiment:
> >
> > A glass jar about a liter capacity was suspended by a string
(24")through
> > a hole in the middle of the lid. The jar rotates Counterclockwise
gaining
> > some rotational speed until the torsion builds up on the string.
> >
> > Releasing the string to let it relax allows repitition. Removing the
> > metal lid seems to recharge the thing too.  :-)
> >
> > Regards,    Frederick
> >
> >
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 06:49:20 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Motor.....Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
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	Dear  Vo.,

	A trick:

	I still struggle with terminology, a gift I am grateful for from
the late Herman Schnurer, Professor of Language.

	When there is an output of energy, or motion or action and the
reason is unknown or unseen, at first, what is it called?

	Free Energy?
	UNEXPECTED ENERGY? 

	Where does it come from? What causes it?


	Make a count and see if there is, at ANY time, a bias  in any
reporting, thinking, writing....

	Let us make a list of what is reported in our writings and so on,
especially if it happens more than a few times..

	The Unexpected or Unknown Energy or Energy source, mechanism and
so on is:     =please add to this list==

	Free
	ZPE
	Vacuum
	Magnetic
	Gyroscopic
	Thermal
	Other

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 07:08:00 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Gravity Quote Error from:  Re: Metric Engineering for Dummies  (fwd)
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	FYI
Subject: Gravity Quote Error from:  Re: Metric Engineering for Dummies 


	Error:

	SEE FLAG   AND SEE NOTE, BELOW:

"Lawrence B. Crowell" wrote:

> I have attached a paper of mine that will appear in the Foundations of
> Physics early next year.  It is concerned with quantum fluctuations in
> spacetime with a gravity on a horizon determined by a Killing field.  I
--->
> One upshot is that not only is quantum mechanics uncertain, but with
> gravity things become even more uncertain.  What is contained below are
> rather old ideas about the nature of quantum gravity.
>
> Last spring Harris wrote, in Phys. Rep. if I recall and I'll have to look
> up the reference,
-------------------------------------  FLAG  SEE NOTE
	........ a refutation of the Podkletnov claim that a spinning
> superconductor induced a magnetic analog within the gravity field.
-------------------------------------	FLAG SEE NOTE
> Essentially the calculation involves an examination of weak gravity fields
> that are analogous to Maxwell's equations. 

>
> Lawrence B. Crowell

NOTE:  
	Eugene Podkletnov never made such a claim ... nor had Giovanni
Modanese or  John Schnurer.

	I wonder who did?
			JHS

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From: David Jonsson <david bahnhof.se>
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Subject: B-2 miracle explained, revision 1
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Hello again

We have a saying in Sweden "Tell me about the joy that lasts forever"

My previous hypothesis does not hold. Air is paramagnetic which means it
will be atracted by the aircraft. I'm still interested in studying what
effect this will have on the situation.

In fact it is Oxygen that is paramagnetic. Nitrogen is diamagnetic but not
enough to counter for the oxygen.

This could mean that oxygen is attracted more to the aircraft and this
would be very good for the air intakes to the engines.

Would it be possible to construct an oxygen enriching machine that works
with air and magnetic fields? This could revoultionize the combustion
engine. It would lower fuel consumption and be good for the environment.

Diffusion casued by heat would be an effect that would work against this
magnetic refinery. Can someone help me to work out the details?

David 

David Jonsson  US Fax +1 (305) 946-7851      Swedish Fax +46-18-24 51 56
Stockholm      Phone +46-706-339487          E-mail David Bahnhof.se
Sweden         http://www.bahnhof.se/~david  Postgiro 499 40 54-7

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 08:55:33 1999
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From: JNaudin509 aol.com
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Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:53:09 EDT
Subject: The Implosion effect in the Repulsin type B
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Dear All,

I have added some interesting informations about the vortex turbine design 
used in the repulsin flying saucer (type B) build by Schauberger at :

http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/delany/256/html/repulsb.htm

Best Regards,

Jean-Louis Naudin
Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com
Overunity Web site: http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 10:44:29 1999
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From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ca-ois.com>
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Subject: Re: Excuses, excuses
References: <3.0.6.32.19991001114824.007aee00 pop.mindspring.com>
	 <3.0.6.32.19991001114824.007aee00 pop.mindspring.com> <v03007800b41c17c8c5be@[209.181.169.41]>
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thomas Malloy wrote:
> 
> >It sounds more like a typical excuse "designed for the layman" to me.
> 
> >Regards,
> >
> >Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
> 
> Richard C. Hoagland, NASA gadfly, thinks so too. I just listened to Art
> Bell's interview of Richard on 09/23/99 on real audio. In a series of
> interviews on this venue, Richard has stated that he believes that there is
> a cabal of occultists. These people are in positions of power and wealth.
> Some of them are in NASA. They want to keep high resolution photos of
> Cydonia from the public. This also applies to pictures of artifacts on the
> moon, UFO's and the "aliens"that come out of them. Only there is no
> evidence to indicate that they come from anywhere else but here.

What do you mean by "here", specifically? 

 I prefer
> the explanation that they have the ability to enter other dimentions
> myself.

Is there any explanation for the possible means or machinery that
"aliens" might use to
travel to other "dimensions"? What is the underlying theory, in general
terms?

> 
> I applaud Mr. Richard's efforts to dig out these people's activities. Since
> I am a Christian who believes in scriptural inerrorancy, I also believe
> that there are people who worship Lucifer as God. Their adgenda is to bring
> about a one world government. Their name for this is the New World Odor, I
> mean Order. In other words, Mr. Richard's beliefs exactly parallel mine.
> However since Richard is not a Christian, their activities make no sense to
> him, where as they exactly fit with the biblical paradigm.

I'm a Christian, however I think "churches" organized under Internal
Revenue Service 901(c)(3) rules also serve the ends of government in
general, perhaps incidentally furthering the worship of Lucifer (The
Masonic "Great Architect"). Disputes between 
quarrelling "Christians" are interestingly frequently settled not in
"Christian" churhes, but in Luciferian ones often referred to as
"courthouses". I've know of cases where Masonic "Funerals" have actually
been held in courtrooms. It is a rather common occurrence for marriages
to be held there, as well. 

In any case, in order for "Christian" men and women to get married
ANYWHERE, they have to first obtain a licence from government, by going
first down to the good old courthouse/luciferian church. Pastors of so
called Christian churches amazingly will not perform a marriage ceremony
unless the couple first obtains this license.   

The New World "Order" takes on a somewhat different meaning when you use
the meaning of the word "order" to indicate a religious "brotherhood" of
some kind or another. Could this "botherhood" be the Masonic "Order"?

All you judges let me hear you say "Amen"!    

Halleluya! Everybody's all got the same religion at last!

Hey, all you so called Atheists...when's the last time y'all went down
to de courthouse to pay yer repec's to de Lawd Lucifer? We'll if
y'haven't recently you better just be carefull and not drive over the
speed limit or anything, because his minyuns l'getcha, and in that case
de Lawd just might have to increase your "donation" rate.

Praise the Lawd!

Jim Ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 11:52:45 1999
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From: thomas Malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Excuses, excuses
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Jim Ostrowski wrote:

>thomas Malloy wrote:
>>
Only there is no
>> evidence to indicate that they come from anywhere else but here.
>
>What do you mean by "here", specifically?
>
There are pictures showing UFO's flying into the solid earth. They appear
to live on or in  the earth too. However they don't seem to be subject to
the same physical laws as we are, leading some people to speculate that
they can shift into another dimention. If you want to read a very
interesting discussion of their activities go to
http://www.anomalous-images.com/christo.html . This page talks about the
new Denver International Airport and the strange art that it has. At the
end of the page the author talks about the "aliens" and mentions their
reptilian appearance.

>Is there any explanation for the possible means or machinery that
>"aliens" might use to travel to other "dimensions"? What is the underlying
>theory, in general terms?
>
I'd like to know more about that myself. Jan Pajak wrote a book on the
subject about ten years ago, he speculates that they levitate by effects
like the Townsend Brown. As for the ability to shift interdimentionally, I
don't have a clue
>>
>> I applaud Mr. Richard's efforts to dig out these people's activities.

>I'm a Christian, however I think "churches" organized under Internal
>Revenue Service 901(c)(3) rules also serve the ends of government in general,

There's plenty to dislike about the government, however you have to
remember that it was instituted by God and you have to treat it with a
degree of respect.

perhaps incidentally furthering the worship of Lucifer (The
>Masonic "Great Architect").

That's true. When you take 501-C3 statis you buy in on the federal system
which was imposed on the United States by the Clay Act.

>
>In any case, in order for "Christian" men and women to get married
>ANYWHERE, they have to first obtain a licence from government, by going
>first down to the good old courthouse/luciferian church. Pastors of so
>called Christian churches amazingly will not perform a marriage ceremony
>unless the couple first obtains this license.
>

Have you ever heard of a covenant marriage? How about becomming a Soverign
or State Citizen statis?  When the government spells out your name in
capital letters, as it does on marriage licenses and drivers licenses, it
makes you a corporation and subject to federal jurisdiction. The problem
with opting out of the Federal system and into State citizenship is making
a living.

>The New World "Order" takes on a somewhat different meaning when you use
>the meaning of the word "order" to indicate a religious "brotherhood" of
>some kind or another. Could this "botherhood" be the Masonic "Order"?

The Masonic Order is one part of the occultic mystery school of hidden
knowledge. If you want to know more listen to the Art Bell interview of
Evelyn Pagleni on 09/30/99 on Real Audio.

>Hey, all you so called Atheists...

Just because you don't believe in the existance of super human beings and
the occult system of knowledge doesn't mean that they don't exist.

Thomas Malloy



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 11:56:20 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Latest news on nuclear accident "... by hand"
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 15:03:09 -0400
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>  They did the mixing "by hand".
>  
>  
>"From the accounts of three workers severely 
>injured in Thursday's inadvertent nuclear reaction, 
>it emerged that staff bypassed normal procedures
>to mix a uranium-nitric acid solution in a 
>stainless steel bucket by hand."
>
>http://208.138.42.193/forum/a37f684b1575f.htm

I read  through the messages posted in that forum, and found this URL.

http://www.nuclearactive.org/

When private industry subverts or buys government regulatory agencies,
stupidity rules.  When security issues are added to the mix, all remnants of
sanity go flying out the window.  It's not just a Japanese problem or a
Russian problem, it's every country's problem.   These kind of events just
underscore the desperate need for a non-centralized, non-polluting form of
energy generation.  We should take this event as an opportunity to demand
loudly that our leadership shut down the nuclear industry now, and fund
alternative energy research.  They have to wake up to fact that the money
that they get from this industry means nothing after accidents like this
happen.  These kind of events are inevitable, and will only increase in
number if we do anything less than shut it down completely.

Knuke



Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 12:03:39 1999
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Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:58:51 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
Resent-Message-ID: <"ZJ3WH2.0.oD5.UXwzt" mx1>
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>----- Original Message -----
>From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Sent: Sunday, October 03, 1999 4:06 AM
>Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
>
>Rick wrote:
>
>
>> Frederick -
>>
>> Good grief, this is hilarious. What if it's for real. Nawww...
>
>Sure is, Rick, whatever it is. :-)
>
>Following Mitchell Jones' advice, While looking for a Plumb Bob
>I grabbed a Coil spring from my junk drawer, It's about 3/4" O.D. with
>~0.080" dia wire tightly wound and about 2" long with loops at each end it
>must weigh about 50 grams.
>
>I attached a thread to a loop at one end and suspended it. It Reved up to
>about
>30 RPM until the thread torsion slowed it down. With a swivel it should go
>like
>gangbusters.
>>
>> Well if nothing else, you might have just outdone the SMOT. I sure wish
>> Tinsley was still around.
>
>So do I, I sure miss Ole Chris.
>
>Regards,     Frederick

***{The fact that *anything* which you hang from a twisted spiral thread is
going to rotate as the spiral unwinds should be sufficient proof that the
rotation is due to the unwinding of the spiral. However, another test is to
measure the length of the thread at the beginning, when the weight is
hanging from the thread but has been held and prevented from rotating, and
then measure the length of the thread at the end, when equilibrium has been
established and all rotation has ceased. If the unwinding of the spiral is
the correct explanation, then the thread should be longer at the end than
at the beginning. And, sure enough, it is: I tried it with a 20 inch cotton
thread, and found that the thread had lengthened by 3/8th inch when the
rotation ceased. This is the opposite of what you would expect if an
external force were rotating the object, for in that case the cessation of
rotation would mean that the fibers had been would up tightly enough to
stop the rotation--in which case the thread should be *shorter* than it was
at the beginning, rather than longer. Thus we have an experimental
demonstration that nothing out of the ordinary is happening here.
--Mitchell Jones}***

>>
>> - Rick Monteverde
>> Honolulu, HI
>>
>> > To: Vortex
>> >
>> > After reviewing some science relating to refraction of waves by glass
>> > and the physics of a Vortex I tried a simple experiment:
>> >
>> > A glass jar about a liter capacity was suspended by a string
>(24")through
>> > a hole in the middle of the lid. The jar rotates Counterclockwise
>gaining
>> > some rotational speed until the torsion builds up on the string.
>> >
>> > Releasing the string to let it relax allows repitition. Removing the
>> > metal lid seems to recharge the thing too.  :-)
>> >
>> > Regards,    Frederick
>> >
>> >
>>
>>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 12:20:31 1999
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Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 14:15:19 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Schauberger Flying Saucer
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>Dear All,
>
>I have added some interesting informations about the vortex turbine design
>used in the repulsin flying saucer (type B) build by Schauberger at :
>
>http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/delany/256/html/repulsb.htm
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Jean-Louis Naudin
>Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com
>Overunity Web site: http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/index.htm

***{One problem I see with attempting to use this idea to provide lift for
an aircraft is the tendency of the motor to rotate in the opposite
direction as the Schauberger disk. This counter-rotation problem is solved
by helicopter manufacturers by placing a second, small propellor at the end
of a beam projecting from the craft, to oppose the counter-rotation. How do
you propose to deal with this difficulty without compromising the disk
shape of the "flying saucer" craft? --Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 12:23:33 1999
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 <199910030706271.SM00354 [192.168.0.2]>
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 14:20:30 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
Resent-Message-ID: <"ClH6i.0.vw6.4qwzt" mx1>
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>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
>>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>>Sent: Sunday, October 03, 1999 4:06 AM
>>Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
>>
>>Rick wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Frederick -
>>>
>>> Good grief, this is hilarious. What if it's for real. Nawww...
>>
>>Sure is, Rick, whatever it is. :-)
>>
>>Following Mitchell Jones' advice, While looking for a Plumb Bob
>>I grabbed a Coil spring from my junk drawer, It's about 3/4" O.D. with
>>~0.080" dia wire tightly wound and about 2" long with loops at each end it
>>must weigh about 50 grams.
>>
>>I attached a thread to a loop at one end and suspended it. It Reved up to
>>about
>>30 RPM until the thread torsion slowed it down. With a swivel it should go
>>like
>>gangbusters.
>>>
>>> Well if nothing else, you might have just outdone the SMOT. I sure wish
>>> Tinsley was still around.
>>
>>So do I, I sure miss Ole Chris.
>>
>>Regards,     Frederick
>
>***{The fact that *anything* which you hang from a twisted spiral thread is
>going to rotate as the spiral unwinds should be sufficient proof that the
>rotation is due to the unwinding of the spiral. However, another test is to
>measure the length of the thread at the beginning, when the weight is
>hanging from the thread but has been held and prevented from rotating, and
>then measure the length of the thread at the end, when equilibrium has been
>established and all rotation has ceased. If the unwinding of the spiral is
>the correct explanation, then the thread should be longer at the end than
>at the beginning. And, sure enough, it is: I tried it with a 20 inch cotton
>thread, and found that the thread had lengthened by 3/8th inch when the
>rotation ceased. This is the opposite of what you would expect if an
>external force were rotating the object, for in that case the cessation of
>rotation would mean that the fibers had been would up tightly enough to

***{Arg. That should be "wound up tightly enough," not "would up tightly
enough." --MJ}***

>stop the rotation--in which case the thread should be *shorter* than it was
>at the beginning, rather than longer. Thus we have an experimental
>demonstration that nothing out of the ordinary is happening here.
>--Mitchell Jones}***
>
>>>
>>> - Rick Monteverde
>>> Honolulu, HI
>>>
>>> > To: Vortex
>>> >
>>> > After reviewing some science relating to refraction of waves by glass
>>> > and the physics of a Vortex I tried a simple experiment:
>>> >
>>> > A glass jar about a liter capacity was suspended by a string
>>(24")through
>>> > a hole in the middle of the lid. The jar rotates Counterclockwise
>>gaining
>>> > some rotational speed until the torsion builds up on the string.
>>> >
>>> > Releasing the string to let it relax allows repitition. Removing the
>>> > metal lid seems to recharge the thing too.  :-)
>>> >
>>> > Regards,    Frederick
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 12:52:24 1999
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From: JNaudin509 aol.com
Message-ID: <15bca76e.25290dab aol.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 15:51:07 EDT
Subject: Re: The Schauberger Flying Saucer
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Dans un courrier daté du 03/10/99 21:20:24é), mjones jump.net a écrit :

> ***{One problem I see with attempting to use this idea to provide lift for
>  an aircraft is the tendency of the motor to rotate in the opposite
>  direction as the Schauberger disk. This counter-rotation problem is solved
>  by helicopter manufacturers by placing a second, small propellor at the end
>  of a beam projecting from the craft, to oppose the counter-rotation. How do
>  you propose to deal with this difficulty without compromising the disk
>  shape of the "flying saucer" craft? --Mitchell Jones}***

I suggest you to do a very simple experiment for checking the fact, take the 
vortex bottle setup like the apparatus that I have showed at : 
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/delany/256/html/vtxbottle.htm
Put this setup on a sensitive rotating platform or tethered by a nylon wire ( 
with no torsion please..), and check by yourself if a the vortex apparatus 
turn itself on its own axis while the vortex in the water run...

If you no time for checking this, I will send you the answer...

Jean-Louis Naudin

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 13:28:05 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Refract.. rotate   Glass Jar 
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	Dear Folks,
	TO ALL:

	The glass jar 'motor'

	Q: What, in the research of refraction, prompted the glass jar
experiment?
	Q: What about the jar and water prompted ZPE to be reason for  the
		research.

	If a "butter fly" vane is sealed in an evacuated tube then what
causes it to

				John
qStsnd 

ii d ot znf 
 in 

	

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 14:09:51 1999
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Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 15:05:38 -0700
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----- Original Message -----
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 1999 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?

Mitchell Jones wrote:

 >***{The fact that *anything* which you hang from a twisted spiral thread
is
>going to rotate as the spiral unwinds should be sufficient proof that the
>rotation is due to the unwinding of the spiral. However, another test is to
>measure the length of the thread at the beginning, when the weight is
>hanging from the thread but has been held and prevented from rotating, and
>then measure the length of the thread at the end, when equilibrium has been
>established and all rotation has ceased. If the unwinding of the spiral is
> the correct explanation, then the thread should be longer at the end than
>at the beginning. And, sure enough, it is: I tried it with a 20 inch cotton
>thread, and found that the thread had lengthened by 3/8th inch when the
>rotation ceased. This is the opposite of what you would expect if an
>external force were rotating the object, for in that case the cessation of
> rotation would mean that the fibers had been would up tightly enough to
>stop the rotation--in which case the thread should be *shorter* than it was
 >at the beginning, rather than longer. Thus we have an experimental
 >demonstration that nothing out of the ordinary is happening here.
 >--Mitchell Jones}***

Correct for the twisted spiral thread. The suspended spring that runs like
Gangbusters on a cotton (twisted spiral thread) won't do squat on a
20 lb. test monofilament line.

However, the Glass Jar will slowly accelerate and rotate CCW when
tension is applied using the monofilament line, and if set down and relaxed
so that the torsion bias is released so that it will not oscillate, it will
rotate
CCW on each try, whether or not the jar is filled with 28 oz. of water.

This suggests that a test using a low mass, low friction turntable with
the glass jar sitting on it would be in order, to see if there are
Zero Point Fluctuation Waves at work here, as proposed
Cyclones-Hurricanes and other Vortex energy phenomena.

IOW, when transverse Vacuum Fluctuation Waves of any "polarization"
pass through the glass walls, or the water-laden walls of a Hurricane
they are deflected-refracted from the "primary ray" in proportion
to the index of refraction; N = sin(incident)/sin(refracted).

N for the glass jar ~= 1.5, giving a refraction angle of about 42 degrees
and possibly a Zero Point Fluctuation Torque on the Jar.

How do you propose to measure the index of refraction of  the walls of a
Hurricane or Waterspout as opposed to the walls of a glass jar or the vortex
of a toilet flush?  :-)

I'm really not into making free energy motors these days, that's Newman,
Lee, and Dennard's job.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 17:49:25 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Subject: Mills at ACS Meeting?
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As of yesterday (Saturday), the BlackLight Power website did say that BLP was 
scheduled to present data on Wednesday afternoon, Oct. 6, 1999, from 1 p.m. 
to 5 p.m.  

The BLP website said that details could be found on the website of the ACS 
meeting <http://www.vidrine.com/paccon>.  So far, I haven't seen them.  Does 
anyone else have the details?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 17:49:32 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Subject: Ohmori & Mizuno in IE #27
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Interesting article by Ohmori and Mizuno in INFINITE ENERGY #27.  Impressive 
excess energy numbers.

I assume that the fluent translation was done by Jed Rothwell.

The article answered a couple of questions I had:

1)  Why tungsten for the cathode, considering how brittle tungsten is?  
Answer:  tungsten has a high atomic weight, which Ohmori & Mizuno consider 
desirable from a theoretical standpoint.

2)  Did Ohmori or Mizuno ever try molybdenum, which isn't brittle, and which 
has a very high melting point (not as high as tungsten, but a lot higher than 
platinum)?  Answer:  in one run, which gave good results, they did try a 
cathode that was 50%W-50%Mo.

That still leaves the question of whether anyone has tried 100% molybdenum.

Ohmori & Mizuno end their article by saying that they don't think it would be 
hard to scale up to 1000 kW or even 10,000 kW (that's 1 to 10 megawatts).  
But who will try to scale up a device with a cathode that fails within an 
hour?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 18:02:33 1999
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Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
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A Head Scratcher:

Wrapping the outside of the glass jar with aluminum foil
causes the predominant rotation to be CW rather than CCW
using the monofilament (20 lb test) line.  :-)

Easy to repeat, too.

The angle of refraction from air to glass:

sin(incidence)/sin(refraction) ~= 1.5

The Snell's Law Critical Angle from glass to air for total internal
reflection ~= N(air)/N(glass) Is The Same as the refraction angle
Without the Aluminum Foil.  ???

Is the use of Optics the best way to detect ZPE effects?

Regards,     Frederick

 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  3 21:31:17 1999
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From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ca-ois.com>
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	 <3.0.6.32.19991001114824.007aee00 pop.mindspring.com>
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thomas Malloy wrote:

Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> 
> >I'm a Christian, however I think "churches" organized under Internal
> >Revenue Service 901(c)(3) rules also serve the ends of government in general,
> 
> There's plenty to dislike about the government, however you have to
> remember that it was instituted by God and you have to treat it with a
> degree of respect.
> 

I have a problrm with the idea that any kind of unjust power is of God
and therefore should not be resisted, particularly when such unjust
power is wielded by gov'ts. The "divine right of Kings" does not hold up
if the alleged king rules unjustly. 

Anyway the current government as it stands today was instituted by
Abraham Lincoln thruough the enforcement of the "Federal" Constitution
as revised by the 14th Amendmant. There is nothing about the "Federal"
Constitution which indicates to me that it was "Instituted" by God, you
will not find any similar kind of God given government described in the
Bible.  The Ancient Hebrews, for example, only had a "judge" for each of
the 12 tribes and THAT WAS IT.    

OTOH I do respect the government in the same way my cat respects a
rattlesnake, but I will not allow government dominion over my person,
which belongs only to God.

> perhaps incidentally furthering the worship of Lucifer (The
> >Masonic "Great Architect").
> 
> That's true. When you take 501-C3 statis you buy in on the federal system
> which was imposed on the United States by the Clay Act.

What does that fact tell you about so called "Christian" Churches?

> >In any case, in order for "Christian" men and women to get married
> >ANYWHERE, they have to first obtain a licence from government, by going
> >first down to the good old courthouse/luciferian church. Pastors of so
> >called Christian churches amazingly will not perform a marriage ceremony
> >unless the couple first obtains this license.
> >
> 
> Have you ever heard of a covenant marriage?

Please tell me more about that. I'm actually thinking about getting
married. The fact is I've heard of it, but do not know much about it. 

> How about becomming a Soverign
> or State Citizen statis?  When the government spells out your name in
> capital letters, as it does on marriage licenses and drivers licenses, it
> makes you a corporation and subject to federal jurisdiction. The problem
> with opting out of the Federal system and into State citizenship is making
> a living.

Why? People make good livings buying and selling things at flea matkets.
Most of these people have very little interaction with Gov't, the IRS
and etc. Even people with a particular craft can do well as independent
contractors, with perhaps occasional confrontation with "Clipboard
Nazis" like I have encountered, but it isn't more than I feel I can deal
with. 

Why don't we take this discussion over to vortexb, Thomas? We're way off
the subject of anomalous science, and should respect the others rights
not to be bothered with those of us interested in _this_ subject.

Jim

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 00:37:10 1999
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Subject: Re: EUV Fluorescent Glasses
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 01:33:43 -0700
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While I think of it,Tom,

Certain formulations of glass fluoresce in the presence of EUV.

Pyrex 0-54 is one type that comes to mind.

In the early sixties, I used certain types of microscope slides for 
viewing electron and ion beam configurations using this effect.

IOW, it might be possible to use glass fibers that fluoresce, 
as "light-pipes" to see EUV occurring in aqueous electrolytes.

Regards,   Frederick

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF0E11.88740140
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Check out this "animation".


http://didaktik.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~pkrahmer/ntnujava/propagation/propa
gation.html

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[DEFAULT]
BASEURL=3Dhttp://didaktik.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~pkrahmer/ntnujava/prop=
agation/propagation.html

[InternetShortcut]
URL=3Dhttp://didaktik.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~pkrahmer/ntnujava/propagat=
ion/propagation.html
Modified=3D606113064C0EBF01F4

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF0E11.88740140--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 05:26:45 1999
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Subject: Santilli's MagneGas
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--========================_59607898==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Has anybody heard about a COP of 2.78 claimed by Santilli with his MagneGas
which appears to be very similar to aquafuel ?

The attached document Aquafuel.doc was supposed to be delivered at the INE
symposium of Salt Lake City on August 27th
                                        Jean DeLagarde



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b!!#!-J!!J6)!!))b!!#$-J!!r3!!!!!!!2X!!!!!!!$j!!!!!!!!p`!!!!!!!28
!!!!!!!$c!!!!!!!!m3!!!!!!!1m!!!!!!!$Y!!!!!!!!k`!!!!!!!1N!!!!!!!$
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!!!!F!$)!!&088L!!!!!+[q2rr`!!!!!#Q'l33 -!:


--========================_59607898==_--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 05:36:11 1999
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Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 12:37:16 +0000
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Subject: Re: Excuses, excuses
References: <3.0.6.32.19991001114824.007aee00 pop.mindspring.com>
		 <3.0.6.32.19991001114824.007aee00 pop.mindspring.com> <v03007800b41c17c8c5be@[209.181.169.41]> <37F79604.468D@ca-ois.com>
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Jim Ostrowski wrote:

...you better just be carefull and not drive over
 the speed limit or anything, because his minyuns l'getcha,

Hi Jim,

The best chronicle I have seen of the advance of
the police state in the U.S. over the years is
The Match
P.O. Box 3012
Tucson, Arizona 85702

You might want to take a look.

Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 05:49:24 1999
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Subject: Re: Santilli's MagneGas
References: <v01510100b41e43e12a21 [195.132.13.220]>
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JEAN DELAGARDE wrote:
 
> The attached document Aquafuel.doc was supposed to be delivered at the INE
> symposium of Salt Lake City on August 27th         

Hi Jean,

Please post the file in ascii.

Thanks, Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 06:26:52 1999
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From: "JEAN DELAGARDE" <jlagarde cyberaccess.fr>
Subject: Re Boscoli
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Scott Little wrote :

>A World Patent WO 98/43249 A1 has been issued to Boscoli (and David
>Cappelletti).  It gives a pretty good description of the apparatus, which
>is a low energy deuteron accelerator, and the unique targets, which are
>composed of mixtures of metal salts in which the water of hydration has
>been replaced with heavy water (e.g. CuSO4+5D2O).

Could Scott explain how targets of hydrated metal salts are compatible with
a reaction temperature of 1000 degrees ?

On the other hand a full disclosure of the process was scheduled by Gene in
IE #27 for late september to appear on Infinite Energy's website. To date,
I see nothing of that sort and the patent itself is not clear enough. So
what ?

                                        jean DeLagarde


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 06:27:12 1999
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From: "JEAN DELAGARDE" <jlagarde cyberaccess.fr>
Subject: Re: Santilli's MagneGas
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Taylor J. Smith wrote

>Hi Jean,
>Please post the file in ascii.
>Thanks, Jack Smith

I thought that evrybody could read a MS Word document. But here it is in ASCI :

Tuesday August 24, 10:43 am Eastern Time
Company Press Release
SOURCE: Toups Technology Licensing, Inc.
Toups Technology Previews 1999 Institute Of New Energy Symposium Keynote
Address: MagneGas(TM) Process Is Over Unity
Energy Content Of Clean-Burning Gas Nearly Triple Of Electricity Used To
Create It
'Only A Beginning,' Says R. M. Santilli, Ph.D.,
LARGO, Fla., Aug. 24 /PRNewswire/ -- When former Nobel prize nominee
Ruggero M. Santilli, Ph.D. presents Toups Technology Licensing, Inc.'s (OTC
Bulletin Board: TOUP - news) MagneGas(TM) at the INE-99 Symposium in Salt
Lake City, Utah, on August 27, he will be announcing the discovery of a
renewable, clean-burning, non-fossil fuel manufacturing process that gives
back more energy than it takes to make it.
Developed by TTL in collaboration with Dr. Santilli, the MagneGas process
generated 2.78 times more energy in the form of combustible gas than it
took to make the gas according to an independent third party certification.

``A level of efficiency over one simply means that we have a very effective
way of extracting energy that already exists,'' said Leon Toups, TTL's
President and CEO.
With a machine that produces nearly three times the energy that it takes to
run the machine, the MagneGas process has the potential to be a source of
virtually limitless clean, renewable energy.
About the business implications of such a discovery, Toups said, ``With
such broad applications and favorable economics, it makes sense to partner
this discovery with established fuel providers who can help to bring this
important breakthrough to the world market quickly.''
The Discovery:
The MagneGas(TM) Process: A combustible gas is produced by creating an
electric arc in a magnetically treated liquid containing carbon (such as
antifreeze, waste oils or liquid waste like sewage or industrial solvents).

Energy Ratio: The energy content of MagneGas is greater than the electric
energy (measured at the panel) needed for its production in the current
ratio of 2.78 to one. Every kilowatt of electricity used in the production
of MagneGas corresponds to 3,412 British Thermal Units (BTU). Each kilowatt
produces MagneGas containing 7,144 BTU plus 2,318 BTU in heat, for a total
of 9,461 BTU. This phenomenon is referred to as an ``over-unity
production,'' or simply, ``over-unity.'' The best-known example of
over-unity energy is a nuclear power plant, where excess energy originates
in the nuclei of uranium. In the case of MagneGas, excess energy originates
in the liquid used for its production. The over-unity of both nuclear
energy and MagneGas is in full agreement with the principle of conservation
of energy.
An over-unity value of 2.78 was established by numerous tests and
measurements conducted by TTL technicians under Dr. Santilli's supervision
and verified by an independent organization certified by the State of
Florida for fuel gasses, Motor-Fuelers, Inc.
The company invites accredited institutions or investigators to provide
additional independent verification of these results.
``The over-unity value of 2.78 should be considered as merely
preliminary,'' Dr. Santilli said, ``because it can be increased via more
efficient production equipment, the selection of more adequate base
liquids, and other advances. In other words, once the 'mythical barrier' of
the value of 1.00 for the Coefficient of Performance has been passed, its
increase is essentially reduced to technical, engineering, or chemical
issues.''
Emissions properties of MagneGas(TM): When used as a fuel for internal
combustion engines, MagneGas exhaust contains about 120-140 parts per
million (ppm) of hydrocarbon (as compared to 13,367 ppm present in gasoline
exhausts); 14%-15% oxygen (as compared to 0.5% in gasoline exhausts); and
2%-3% carbon dioxide (as compared to 9%-10% in gasoline exhausts).
Because MagneGas emits more oxygen than that used for its combustion, it
has a positive oxygen balance making it the only known fuel whose
combustion exhaust is capable of sustaining life.
Applications of the MagneGas(TM) process: The combination of two patent-
pending processes; the basic process that produces MagneGas, called
PlasmaFlowArc(TM), and a new process for magnetically bonding liquids that
normally do not mix have permitted TTL to develop a set of completely new,
effective and cost competitive methods for treating any non-radioactive
liquid or soluble waste.
Treatable substances include, and are not limited to, automotive wastes
such as antifreeze and oil, as well as sewage and farm waste.
Extensive laboratory tests have established that the PlasmaFlowArc powered
by a Miller Welder Summit Arc 1,000 50kw power supply can recycle 25
gallons of liquid sewage per minute, or, about 1,500 gallons per hour. At
eight cents per kilowatt-hour for electricity, the cost of processing
sewage is $0.0027 per gallon as opposed to the current cost of four cents
per gallon to municipalities.
In addition to producing MagneGas, solid precipitates can be used as
fertilizers and the remaining liquid is excellent for irrigation.
The magnetic bonding process also permits an efficient coal gasification
method, making an environmentally clean fuel.
MagneGas has also established itself as an excellent automotive fuel not
only because of its dramatically improved emission characteristics, but
also because it is less expensive, safer and renewable.
For example, a compact car with a 100 hp engine driving at 50mph requires
about 10 cubic feet of MagneGas per minute, or 600 cubic feet per hour. The
same 600 cf of gas can be produced with one kilowatt of electricity
(costing about 8 cents) while treating 1,500 gallons of sewage (valued at
about $60.00).
All gasoline or diesel engines can be easily retrofit to operate on
MagneGas, and are expected to last longer because MagneGas has over 160
octane (implying smoother engine operation) and dramatically cooler
exhaust.
MagneGas is also safer by comparison to gasoline because, in the
eventuality of a truly catastrophic accident capable of fracturing the
heavy gauge storage tank, the gas dissipates instantly and, if ignited,
burns without exploding.
In commenting on the announcement of his discovery, Dr. Santilli added,
``Our dream of aiding the search for a solution of the world's depleting
resources and alarming environmental problems caused by fossil fuels has
taken a giant step forward with MagneGas. We are proud to offer an
economically and environmentally sound answer to our growing energy needs
and rapidly depleting resources.''
Dr. Santilli, has been invited to present TTL's MagneGas and its supporting
Hadronic Mechanics at the INE-99 Symposium on New Energy, Salt Lake City,
Utah, on August 27-28.
The Institute of New Energy (http://www.padrak.com/ine), along with the
Alternative Energy Institute (http://www.altenergy.org), will sponsor the
sixth annual meeting of more than 70 leading scientists and researchers
from around the world. Dr. Santilli will be the keynote speaker, addressing
the newfound properties and production processes of TTL's MagneGas.
About Dr. Santilli and the Institute for Basic Research:
The Institute for Basic Research (IBR) is comprised of approximately 100
scholars with dual affiliations to universities and research institutions
throughout the world. IBR members possess expertise in the most advanced
aspects of contemporary mathematics, physics, biology and other sciences.
The IBR is headquartered at the Castle Prince Pignatelli, in Molise, Italy,
with its central editorial office located in Palm Harbor, Florida. IBR
provides editorial services to a number of technical publications,
including Algebras, Groups and Geometries (15 years of regular
publication), Hadronic Journal (20 years) and Hadronic Journal Supplement
(12 years). The IBR has additional editorial offices in Russia, Estonia,
Kazakhstan and China.
Dr. Ruggero Maria Santilli is IBR's president and a naturalized U.S.
citizen. As a professor of Theoretical Physics, he is the author of over
150 research papers and 12 advanced monographs. He is the editor of 30
volumes of conference proceedings and collected works.
Dr. Santilli has held faculty or visiting positions at the University of
Miami; Boston University; Massachusetts Institute of Technology;
Departments of Physics and Mathematics of Harvard University; J.I.N.R.;
Dubna Russia, Ukraine, Romanian and Estonian Academies of Sciences; and
other academic institutions throughout the world. Dr. Santilli received his
Ph.D. in Theoretical Physics from the University of Turin, Italy in 1966.
He is the recipient of several scientific honors, including two Gold Medals
for scientific merits. More information on IBR can be obtained via its web
site: http://home1.gte.net/ibr/.
Further details of the discovery will be made available at the presentation
and following the presentation via TTL's Internet website at
www.toupstech.com, or by contacting the company
About The Institute of New Energy
The Institute of New Energy, based in Salt Lake City, Utah, is comprised of
more than 400 members from around the world. Its publications include the
Journal of New Energy (abstracted in Chemical Abstracts) and the New Energy
News, a bi-month newsletter for INE members. A compendium of some 4,000
papers on new energy research and discoveries is available on computer
compact disc from the Institute, tel (801) 466-8680, fax (801) 466-8668,
e-mail: halfox slkc.uswest.net.
About Toups Technology
As a technology development and manufacturing company, TTL seeks,
authenticates and secures the rights to manufacture and market new
technological advances in the energy, environment, natural resource and
healthcare markets.
TTL's technologies include: Pyrolytic Carbon Extraction(TM) (PCE)(TM), an
emission-free solid waste-to-energy process that produces the alternative
fuel Phoenix 777(TM) and carbon black; Hot Plasma Destructive Distillation,
which produces AquaFuel(TM) from water and carbon or liquid industrial
waste; Magnetion(TM), an alternative liquid waste treatment technology that
produces MagneGas(TM) (all TTL fuels are clean burning and return oxygen to
the air upon combustion); BORS Lift(TM), which increases marginal oil field
production while dramatically cutting costs; Brounley RF Technologies radio
frequency power generators for aerospace, military, industrial and advanced
communications applications; and medical supplies, equipment and
pharmaceuticals via the internet through subsidiary, InterSource Health
Care, Inc. Its TTL Manufacturing provides production, metal fabrication,
machining and a wide variety of precision welding services for internally
manufactured products. All trademarks are the property of TTL.
Company Contacts
For TTL: James Doulgeris, V.P., Marketing, (jdoulgeris toupstech.com), tel
727-548-0918, fax 727-549-8138; James Dryer/Geoffrey Plank, public/investor
relations, tel 561-655-7575, fax 561-655-2171, (GFCComm aol.com); Darrel
Hackman, public/investor relations, Western States, tel 303-680-8014,
(dahackman worldnet.att.net).
This release may contain forward-looking statements within the meaning of
section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933, as amended and Section 21E of
the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, as amended. Many factors may cause
actual results to differ from forward-looking statements. These factors
include orders which are received and can be shipped in a quarter; whether
and when order options are exercised; customer order patterns and seasonal
variables; contract mix and shifting production and delivery schedules;
manufacturing capacity and yield; cost of labor, raw materials, supplies
and equipment; technological changes; competition and competitive pressures
on pricing; economic conditions in the United States and worldwide, and
other risks that are detailed from time to time in the Company's filings
with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
SOURCE: Toups Technology Licensing, Inc.

More Quotes and News:   Toups Technologies Licensing Inc (OTC BB:TOUP - news)
Related News Categories: environmental, household/consumer





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 06:32:51 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Magnetic oxygen separator
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At 4:09 PM 10/3/99, David Jonsson wrote:
[snip]
>
>Would it be possible to construct an oxygen enriching machine that works
>with air and magnetic fields? This could revoultionize the combustion
>engine. It would lower fuel consumption and be good for the environment.
>
>Diffusion casued by heat would be an effect that would work against this
>magnetic refinery. Can someone help me to work out the details?


This is not a new idea. In fact, I posted a similar idea here some months
ago.  Concentrating the oxygen requires setting up a strong magnetic
gradient.  This can be done by creating a triangular trough using the faces
of two magnets or a C shaped magnet, where the C is almost closed.  If you
close off the trough with a barrier, shown as a a line of "=" in Fig's 1
and 2 below, then you can pass air though the trough in a continuous
process and then the oxygen will migrate toward the apex and the nitrogen
toward the barrier.


      ====================
      /\                /\
     /  \              /  \
         \            /
         S\          /N
           \        /
            \      /
             \    /
              \  /
               \/
               /\

   Close magnetic loop on this side

           Fig. 1


At the end of the trough include a bifarcation "--":


      ====================
      /\                /\
     /  \              /  \
         \            /
         S\          /N
           \--------/
            \ o  o /
             \o   /
              \ o/
               \/
               /\

   Close magnetic loop on this side

           Fig. 2

so the oxygen enriched gas, shown as "o" in Fig. 2 has been separated by
moving toward the point of maximum field strength at the trough apex.  This
could be just one stage of a magnetic separator.  In the second and
subsequent stages the less rich gas is fed back to the prior stage input to
enrich the air input to the prior stage.  Magnetic separation of oxygen is
a very slow process and the flow must be laminar.  It is really not
suitable for the variable demands of a car engine.  It might be used to
improve oxygenation of a fish tank, of a room or tent for a medical
patient, or to increase the heat output and reduce NOx emissions of a
furnace or boiler system.  A big separator might be used for enriching an
engine's air input, and reducing polution, but there would be additional
problems from the extra heat and engine knocking.  An outdoor oxygen
separator would reduce the amount of heat lost to do an air exchange for a
house. There would have to be controls to avoid excess oxygen concentration
because such is toxic and also a fire hazard.

You can get an idea of how effective (ineffective) the separation process
is by setting up two magnet faces to make a trough, as above, and place gas
barriers, a piece of tape, at either end.  Leave the top open.  After a
while light a (preferably wooden) match and dip it down to the bottom of
the trough.  It should burn brighter at the bottom.  Blow out the match,
but you need to leave a hot coal on the end, so move quickly.  Stick it to
the bottom of the trough and it should burst back into flame.  You can blow
the oxygen out of the trough and try the experiment again at differing time
intervals.

Note that you may not need a blower to make the process work, once the
process starts, provided the exit tube for the oxygen gas has a long drop,
or the N2 discharge tube has a long rise.  Oxygen is heavier than air.  A
small vertical heat inversion would kill the circulation though.  A blower
in the common sense is not appropriate either.  A slow air pump is more
like it, maybe a star-wheel based Roots blower or gear motor type thing
would work OK.

It takes a big investment in magnets to build an oxygen separator, and you
don't get a lot of oxygen for the money because it is a slow process.  That
is probably why you don't see them in practice.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 06:57:34 1999
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JEAN DELAGARDE wrote:
> 
> Taylor J. Smith wrote
> 
> >Hi Jean,
> >Please post the file in ascii.
> >Thanks, Jack Smith
> 
> I thought that evrybody could read a MS Word document. But here it is in ASCI :

<snip>

There is apparently a difference between MS Word MacIntosh files
and PC files.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 07:15:54 1999
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Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 10:13:21 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Latest news on nuclear accident "... by hand"
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This means they routinely mixed the materials in a bucket instead of the
automatic mixing machine. It does not mean they actually stuck their hands
into radioactive sludge. Even these people are smarter than that. The
latest revelation in this morning's Yomiuri says that there was a
unauthorized manual at the plant listing illegal 'time-saving' shortcuts.

	On Sunday, Ibaraki prefectural police set up a headquarters to direct
	about 100 personnel in an investigation of the nation's worst nuclear
	disaster. Police also obtained a manual detailing an illegal process
	for the production of uranium fuel that was drawn up by Tokyo-based
	JCO.

(Yomiuri English web site)

Witnesses, including one of the gravely ill workers, have testified that
they routinely mixed more than the mandated 2.4 kg. The senior worker said
that he has never heard of the "criticality." In other words, they had no
idea what they were doing.

As of last night the three workers were still alive, which is a medical
miracle.

The government oversight agency shares a lot of the blame for this. It is
run by none other than A. Arima, ex-Pres of Tokyo University and arch-enemy
of cold fusion -- Japan's answer to John Huizenga. He says this accident
was caused by the "immorality" of the corporation. He is right in some
sense, but there is plenty of blame to go around. The government
rubber-stamped permission to operate this facility after troubling
accidents revealed a pattern of incompetence and carelessness.

- Jed

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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: NTNU Virtual Pysics Laboratory (java applets)
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NTNU Virtual Pysics Laboratory (java applets)
  Last modified :=A1  (Average: 2 new java applets/month.)
      Virtual Physics Laboratoryat NTNUPhysics
            original site English =
http://www.phy.ntnu.edu.tw/java/index.html=20
            Chinese http://www.phy.ntnu.edu.tw/demolab/index.html=20

      29 Mirror sites around the world (updated every two months). =20

      New Applets:RLC(DC)circuit simulationTransverse Wave and =
Longitudinal WaveMixing colored light beams/paint pigmentsFree body =
force diagramFermat principle Reflection/RefractionSpace and Time in =
Special RelativityMultimeter VOM Billiards and Physics cyclotron world =
viewed from fishes eyes Location of supersonic airplane =
projectile/satellite orbits new version Keeper motion Spring Force and =
SHM simple harmonic motion one-dimensional collision two-dimensional =
collision Relative motion Carnot heat engine RLC circuit (AC) RC =
(dis)charging (DC) Fermats Principle=20
      Flash: Which one vanishes?=20

      Mechanics 1. Reaction Time Measurements * =20
         reaction time and car accident =20

      2. Traffic light system*=20

      3. Relative Motion (frame of reference)=20

      4. Free Rolling and circular motion=A1 =20

      5. Racing ball=20

      6. One Dimensional Motion (XVA)=20

      7. Projectile motion (Cannon to cannon)*=20

        projection motion with air drag
      8. Interesting properties of projectile motion=20
      9, Bouncing balls=20

      10. Angular momentum and area=20

      11. Simple Harmonic Motion=20

      12. Spring Force and Simple Harmonic Motion=20

      13. Motion of a Ping-Pong
    =20
      Dynamics 1. Pendulum * =20
      2. Center of Gravity=20

      3. Kepler Motion * =20

         Projectile/Satellite Orbits  (German) =20

      4. Pulley=20

      5. Buoyant Force * =20

      6. Circulation motion and centripetal force=20

      7. One-dimensional collision=20

      8. Two-dimensional collision=20

      9. frictional force and motion=20

      10. In which direction will it roll?=20

      11. Free body Force Diagram
    =20
      Wave=20
      &=20

      oscillation
     1. Oscillation and wave (spring) * =20
      2. Moving point source (Doppler effect/Shock wave)=20

      3. The location of an supersonic airplane=20

      4. Double Slit (interference)=20

      5. Superposition principle of wave * =20

      6. Fourier Synthesis * =20

      7. Transmission of Wave (Reflection and Refraction) * =20

      8. Interference between two waves (point sources)=20

      9. Transverse Wave and Longitudinal Wave
    =20
      Thermodynamics 1. Molecular model for an ideal gas (PV=3DNkT) * =20
      2. Brownian Motion=20

      3. Carnot heat engine
    =20
      Electromagnetic=20
       =20
      1. Charged particle motion in uniform E/M Field * =20
      2. Propagation of electromagnetic wave*=20

      3. Oscilloscope=20

      4. cyclotron=20

      5. Biot-Savart Law=20
      =20
    =20
      Electronics 1. RC circuits (DC) =20
      2. (DC)V-RLC circuit simulation=20

      3. RLC circuit (AC) =20

      4. Multimeter VOM=20
      =20
    =20
      Optics=20
      and=20

      Light
     1. reflection/refraction (water/air interface)=20
      2. Thin Lens / mirror *    thin lens combinations=20

      3. Thick Lens java applet=20

      4. Find the fastest Path=20

      5. Physics of Rainbow * (How/Why?)=20

      6. "the world above the water surface" (refraction)=20

      7. shadow/image and mixing colored light=20

      8. Billiards and Physics=20

      9. Fermat principle=20

      10.mixing colored light beams / paint pigments.=20
         Color Magic show  (Director animation)
    =20
      modern physics Space and Time in Special Relativity=20
      Others 1. Vernier*=20
      2. Vector Addition=20

      3. Theorem of Pythagoras
    =20

Applet marked with * are registered at TIPTOP/VLAB,=20
Any comments/suggestions about my applets? send me mail=20

For Physics teachers: Let me know what kind of java applet you would =
like to see=20
and I will try to make it for your physics class.=20
(If you describe it in more detail, you will see it early.)  Click HERE.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Asso. Prof. Fu-Kwun Hwang =20
   I am not a professional programmer, I am a physicist.=20

    I love physics, and I enjoy playing with physics.=20

    Address: Dept. of physics, National Taiwan Normal University=20
        #88 Sec 4, Ting-Chou Rd., Taipei, Taiwan 11718=20
        phone: (886-2)2934-6620 Ext 132 FAX: (886-2) 2932-6408=20
        E-mail: hwang phy03.phy.ntnu.edu.tw=20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

      Links to TIPTOP/VLAB Gamelan Multimedia Physik physics resource=20


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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>NTNU Virtual Pysics Laboratory (java applets)</TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://www.phy.ntnu.edu.tw/java/index.html><!doctype html public =
"-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<META content=3D"Fu-Kwun Hwang =B6=C0=BA=D6=A9[" name=3DAuthor>
<META content=3D"Mozilla/4.5 [en] (Win98; I) [Netscape]" =
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<META=20
content=3D"Virtual Pysics Java Laboratory, more than 50 physics related =
java applets developed at NTNU"=20
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
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</HEAD>
<BODY aLink=3D#ff0000 bgColor=3D#80ffff link=3D#0000ee=20
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text=3D#000000=20
vLink=3D#551a8b>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<CENTER>&nbsp; <FONT size=3D-1>Last modified :=A1 
<SCRIPT language=3DJavaScript>=0A=
 <!--hide script from old browsers=0A=
 document.write(document.lastModified);=0A=
 // end hiding -->=0A=
</SCRIPT>
 (Average: 2 new java applets/month<A=20
href=3D"NTNUjava.html">.</A>)</FONT></CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE bgColor=3D#ffff80 border=3D10 cellPadding=3D5 cellSpacing=3D5>
  <TBODY>
  <TR>
    <TD>
      <CENTER><B><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D+2>Virtual Physics=20
      Laboratory</FONT></FONT></B>at <A=20
      href=3D"http://www.ntnu.edu.tw/english/Econtent.html">NTNU</A><A=20
      =
href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("http://www.phy.ntnu.edu.tw/english/index.html")'=
>Physics</A></CENTER>
      <CENTER>
      <TABLE border=3D1 cellPadding=3D5>
        <TBODY>
        <TR>
          <TD rowSpan=3D2>original site</TD>
          <TD>English</TD>
          <TD><A=20
            =
href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("http://www.phy.ntnu.edu.tw/java/index.html")'>ht=
tp://www.phy.ntnu.edu.tw/java/index.html</A></TD></TR>
        <TR>
          <TD>Chinese</TD>
          <TD><A=20
            =
href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("http://www.phy.ntnu.edu.tw/demolab/index.html")'=
>http://www.phy.ntnu.edu.tw/demolab/index.html</A></TD></TR></TBODY></TAB=
LE></CENTER>
      <CENTER>29 <A href=3D"mirrorSites.html">Mirror sites</A> around =
the world=20
      (updated every two =
months).&nbsp;</CENTER></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE cellPadding=3D8>
  <TBODY>
  <TR>
    <TD bgColor=3D#80ffff>
      <FORM name=3Djava><FONT color=3D#0000ff>New Applets:<SELECT=20
        name=3Djavalist><OPTION selected=20
        value=3Delectronics/vrlc_e.html>RLC(DC)circuit simulation<OPTION =

        value=3DwaveType/waveType.html>Transverse Wave and Longitudinal=20
        Wave<OPTION value=3Dimage/rgbColor.html>Mixing colored light =
beams/paint=20
        pigments<OPTION value=3DforceDiagram/forceDiagram.html>Free body =
force=20
        diagram<OPTION value=3DFermat/Fermat.html>Fermat =
principle&nbsp;<OPTION=20
        value=3Dlight/flashLight.html>Reflection/Refraction<OPTION=20
        value=3Drelativity/relativity.html>Space and Time in Special=20
        Relativity<OPTION value=3Delectronics/multimeter.html>Multimeter =

        VOM&nbsp;<OPTION value=3Dbilliards/billiards.html>Billiards and=20
        Physics&nbsp;<OPTION=20
        value=3Dcyclotron/cyclotron.html>cyclotron&nbsp;<OPTION=20
        value=3DfishEye/fishEye.html>world viewed from fishes =
eyes&nbsp;<OPTION=20
        value=3Dairplane/airplane.html>Location of supersonic=20
        airplane&nbsp;<OPTION=20
        =
value=3DprojectileOrbit/projectileOrbit.html>projectile/satellite=20
        orbits&nbsp;<OPTION value=3DKepler/Kepler.html>new version =
Keeper=20
        motion&nbsp;<OPTION value=3DspringForce/springForce.html>Spring =
Force and=20
        SHM&nbsp;<OPTION value=3Dshm/shm.html>simple harmonic =
motion&nbsp;<OPTION=20
        value=3Dcollision1D/collision1D.html>one-dimensional=20
        collision&nbsp;<OPTION=20
        value=3Dcollision2D/collision2D.html>two-dimensional=20
        collision&nbsp;<OPTION=20
        value=3DrelativeVelocity/relativeVelocity.html>Relative=20
        motion&nbsp;<OPTION value=3Dcarnot/carnot.html>Carnot heat=20
        engine&nbsp;<OPTION value=3Drlc/rlc.html>RLC circuit =
(AC)&nbsp;<OPTION=20
        value=3Drc/rc.html>RC (dis)charging (DC)&nbsp;<OPTION=20
        value=3Drefraction/refraction.html>Fermats =
Principle&nbsp;</OPTION></SELECT><INPUT name=3Dbutton =
onclick=3Dmoveto(this.form.javalist) type=3Dbutton =
value=3DSelect></FORM></FONT>Flash:=20
      <FONT color=3D#0000ff><A=20
      href=3D"JAVASCRIPT:jump('/demolab/flash/strange.html')">Which one=20
      vanishes?</A></FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<CENTER>
<TABLE bgColor=3D#ffffff border=3D6 cellPadding=3D3 cellSpacing=3D3>
  <TBODY>
  <TR>
    <TD align=3Dmiddle>
      <CENTER><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Mechanics</FONT></CENTER></TD>
    <TD><FONT color=3D#0000ff><A=20
      href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("Reaction/reactionTime.html")'>1. Reaction =
Time=20
      Measurements</A></FONT> *&nbsp;=20
      <P>&nbsp;&nbsp;<A =
href=3D"JAVASCRIPT:jump('carDistance/carAccident.html')">=20
      reaction time and car accident&nbsp;</A>=20
      <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff><A=20
      href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("trafficControl/trafficControl.html")'>2. =
Traffic=20
      light system*</A></FONT>=20
      <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff><A=20
      =
href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("relativeVelocity/relativeVelocity.html")'>3.=20
      Relative Motion (frame of reference)</A></FONT>=20
      <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff><A=20
      href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("FreeRolling/FreeRolling.html")'>4. Free =
Rolling and=20
      circular motion</A>=A1 </FONT>=20
      <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff><A=20
      href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("racingBall/racingBall.html")'>5. Racing=20
      ball</A></FONT>=20
      <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff><A =
href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("xva/xva.html")'>6. One=20
      Dimensional Motion (XVA)</A></FONT>=20
      <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff><A=20
      href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("projectile/projectile.html")'>7. =
Projectile motion=20
      (Cannon to cannon)*</A></FONT>=20
      <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=3D#0000ff><A=20
        href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("dragForce/dragForce.html")'>projection =
motion=20
        with air drag</A></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><A=20
      href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("projectile3/projectile3.html")'><FONT=20
      color=3D#0000ff>8. Interesting</FONT> properties of projectile =
motion</A>=20
      <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff><A=20
      href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("bouncingBall/bouncingBall.html")'>9, =
Bouncing=20
      balls</A></FONT>=20
      <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff><A=20
      href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("equalArea/equalArea.html")'>10. Angular =
momentum=20
      and area</A></FONT>=20
      <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff><A =
href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("shm/shm.html")'>11.=20
      Simple Harmonic Motion</A></FONT>=20
      <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff><A=20
      href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("springForce/springForce.html")'>12. =
Spring Force=20
      and Simple Harmonic Motion</A></FONT>=20
      <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff><A=20
      href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("rotateDisk/pingpong.html")'>13. Motion of =
a=20
      Ping-Pong</A></FONT></P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD align=3Dmiddle><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Dynamics</FONT></TD>
    <TD><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("Pendulum/Pendulum.html")'>1. =
Pendulum</A>=20
      *&nbsp;=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("block/block.html")'>2. Center of =
Gravity</A>=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("Kepler/Kepler.html")'>3. Kepler =
Motion</A>=20
      *&nbsp;=20
      <P>&nbsp;&nbsp; <A=20
      =
href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("projectileOrbit/projectileOrbit.html")'>Projecti=
le/Satellite=20
      Orbits</A>&nbsp; (<A=20
      =
href=3D"JAVASCRIPT:jump('projectileOrbit/moonappl/index.html')">German</A=
>)&nbsp;=20

      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("wheelAxle/pulley.html")'>4. =
Pulley</A>=20
      <P><A =
href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("buoyantForce/buoyantForce.html")'>5. Buoyant=20
      Force</A> *&nbsp;=20
      <P><A =
href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("circularMotion/circular3D_e.html")'>6.=20
      Circulation motion and centripetal force</A>=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("collision1D/collision1D.html")'>7.=20
      One-dimensional collision</A>=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("collision2D/collision2D.html")'>8.=20
      Two-dimensional collision</A>=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("friction/friction.html")'>9. =
frictional force=20
      and motion</A>=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("wheelAxle/torque_e.html")'>10. In =
which=20
      direction will it roll?</A>=20
      <P><A =
href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("forceDiagram/forceDiagram.html")'>11. Free=20
      body Force Diagram</A></P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD align=3Dmiddle><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Wave</FONT>=20
      <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff>&amp;</FONT>=20
      <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff>oscillation</FONT></P></TD>
    <TD><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("springWave/springWave.html")'>1. =
Oscillation=20
      and wave (spring)</A> *&nbsp;=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("Doppler/Doppler.html")'>2. Moving =
point=20
      source (Doppler effect/Shock wave)</A>=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("airplane/airplane.html")'>3. The =
location of=20
      an supersonic airplane</A>=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("doubleSlit/doubleSlit.html")'>4. =
Double Slit=20
      (interference)</A>=20
      <P><A=20
      =
href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("waveSuperposition/waveSuperposition.html")'>5.=20
      Superposition principle of wave</A> *&nbsp;=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("sound/sound.html")'>6. Fourier =
Synthesis</A>=20
      *&nbsp;=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("propagation/propagation.html")'>7.=20
      Transmission of Wave (Reflection and Refraction)</A> *&nbsp;=20
      <P>8. <A=20
      =
href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("waveInterference/waveInterference.html")'>Interf=
erence=20
      between two waves (point sources)</A>=20
      <P>9. <A =
href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("waveType/waveType.html")'>Transverse Wave=20
      and Longitudinal Wave</A></P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD align=3Dmiddle><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Thermodynamics</FONT></TD>
    <TD><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("idealGas/idealGas.html")'>1. =
Molecular model=20
      for an ideal gas (PV=3DNkT)</A> *&nbsp;=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("gas2D/gas2D.html")'>2. Brownian =
Motion</A>=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("carnot/carnot.html")'>3. Carnot =
heat=20
      engine</A></P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD align=3Dmiddle><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Electromagnetic</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
      color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
    <TD><BR><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("emField/emField.html")'>1. =
Charged=20
      particle motion in uniform E/M Field</A> *&nbsp;=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("emWave/emWave.html")'>2. =
Propagation of=20
      electromagnetic wave*</A>=20
      <P><A =
href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("oscilloscope/oscilloscope.html")'>3.=20
      Oscilloscope</A>=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("cyclotron/cyclotron.html")'>4. =
cyclotron</A>=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("BiotSavart/BiotSavart.html")'>5. =
Biot-Savart=20
      Law</A> <BR><A=20
      =
href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("electronics/multimeter.html")'></A>&nbsp;</P></T=
D></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD>
      <CENTER><FONT color=3D#3333ff>Electronics</FONT></CENTER></TD>
    <TD><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("rc/rc.html")'>1. RC circuits</A> =
(DC)&nbsp;=20
      <P><A href=3D"JAVASCRIPT:jump('electronics/vrlc_e.html')">2. =
(DC)V-RLC=20
      circuit simulation</A>=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("rlc/rlc.html")'>3. RLC circuit</A> =
(AC)&nbsp;=20

      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("electronics/multimeter.html")'>4. =
Multimeter=20
      VOM</A> <BR>&nbsp;</P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD align=3Dmiddle><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Optics</FONT>=20
      <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff>and</FONT>=20
      <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Light</FONT></P></TD>
    <TD><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("light/flashLight.html")'>1.=20
      reflection/refraction (water/air interface)</A>=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("Lens/lens_e.html")'>2. Thin Lens / =
mirror</A>=20
      *&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A=20
      href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("thinLens/thinLens.html")'>thin lens=20
      combinations</A>=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("thickLens/thickLens.html")'>3. =
Thick Lens=20
      java applet</A>=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("refraction/refraction.html")'>4. =
Find the=20
      fastest Path</A>=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("Rainbow/rainbow.html")'>5. Physics =
of=20
      Rainbow</A> * (How/Why?)=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("fishEye/fishEye.html")'>6. "the =
world above=20
      the water surface"</A> (refraction)=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("shadow/shadow.html")'>7. =
shadow/image and=20
      mixing colored light</A>=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("billiards/billiards.html")'>8. =
Billiards and=20
      Physics</A>=20
      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("Fermat/Fermat.html")'>9. Fermat =
principle</A>=20

      <P><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("image/rgbColor.html")'>10.mixing =
colored=20
      light beams / paint pigments.</A> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; <A=20
      href=3D"JAVESCRIPT:jump('color/color_e.html')">Color Magic =
show</A>&nbsp;=20
      (Director animation)</P></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD align=3Dmiddle><FONT color=3D#0000ff>modern physics</FONT></TD>
    <TD><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("relativity/relativity.html")'>Space =
and Time=20
      in Special Relativity</A></TD></TR>
  <TR>
    <TD align=3Dmiddle><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Others</FONT></TD>
    <TD><A href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("ruler/vernier.html")'>1. =
Vernier*</A>=20
      <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff><A =
href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("vector/vector.html")'>2.=20
      Vector Addition</A></FONT>=20
      <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff><A =
href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("abc/Pythagoras.html")'>3.=20
      Theorem of =
Pythagoras</A></FONT></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
<CENTER>
<P>Applet marked with * are registered at <A=20
href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("http://www.tp.umu.se/TIPTOP/VLAB/")'>TIPTOP/VLAB=
</A>,=20
<BR>Any <A href=3D"comments.html">comments/suggestions</A> about my =
applets? <A=20
href=3D"mailto:hwang phy03.phy.ntnu.edu.tw">send me mail</A>=20
<P>For Physics teachers: Let me know what kind of java applet you would =
like to=20
see <BR>and I will try to make it for your physics class. <BR>(If you =
describe=20
it in more detail, you will see it early.)&nbsp; Click <A=20
href=3D"http://www.phy.ntnu.edu.tw/cgi-bin/email?hwang">HERE</A>.</CENTER=
>
<HR width=3D"100%">
<BR><B><FONT size=3D+2>Asso. Prof. Fu-Kwun Hwang&nbsp;</FONT></B><IMG=20
align=3DABSCENTER height=3D26 src=3D"name.gif" width=3D83>=20
<P><FONT size=3D+1>&nbsp;&nbsp; I am not a professional programmer, I am =
a=20
physicist.</FONT>=20
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I love physics, and I enjoy playing with physics.=20
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Address: <A=20
href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("http://www.phy.ntnu.edu.tw/english/")'>Dept. of =

physics</A>, <A =
href=3D"http://www.ntnu.edu.tw/english/econtent.html">National=20
Taiwan Normal University</A> =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; #88=20
Sec 4, Ting-Chou Rd., <A=20
href=3D"http://www.taipei.gov.tw/index_e.html">Taipei</A>, <A=20
href=3D"http://www.oop.gov.tw/english.htm">Taiwan</A> 11718=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; phone: (886-2)2934-6620 =
Ext 132=20
FAX: (886-2) 2932-6408 <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
E-mail:=20
<I><A=20
href=3D"mailto:hwang phy03.phy.ntnu.edu.tw">hwang@phy03.phy.ntnu.edu.tw</=
A></I>=20
<BR>
<HR width=3D"100%">

<CENTER>
<TABLE cellPadding=3D5>
  <TBODY>
  <TR>
    <TD>Links to</TD>
    <TD><A =
href=3D"http://physicsweb.org/TIPTOP/VLAB/">TIPTOP/VLAB</A></TD>
    <TD><A=20
      =
href=3D"http://www.developer.com/directories/pages/dir.java.html">Gamelan=
</A></TD>
    <TD><A=20
      =
href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("http://didaktik.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~pkrahme=
r/home/")'>Multimedia=20
      Physik</A></TD>
    <TD><A=20
      =
href=3D'JAVASCRIPT:jump("http://www.wco.com/~ejia/EDU/physic.htm")'>physi=
cs=20
      resource</A></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 07:22:36 1999
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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:26:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Word documents Re: Santilli's MagneGas
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	Dear Vo and Jean D.


	 Word based data, documents, templates and so on can be carriers
of Word type viruses.  ASCII cannot carry Word viruses.
	In almost every case ASCII will take up less memory and will
compress at a better factor than Word data.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 07:33:51 1999
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Message-ID: <37F8BB0C.4D50E5 bellsouth.net>
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 10:34:52 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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References: <8682bae3.25295359 aol.com>
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Tstolper aol.com wrote:
> 
> As of yesterday (Saturday), the BlackLight Power website did say that BLP was
> scheduled to present data on Wednesday afternoon, Oct. 6, 1999, from 1 p.m.
> to 5 p.m.
> 
> The BLP website said that details could be found on the website of the ACS
> meeting <http://www.vidrine.com/paccon>.  So far, I haven't seen them.  Does
> anyone else have the details?

I think they mean details of the session, not details of the
actual presentation.  Below are the session details from:

http://www.vidrine.com/paccon/techprogram.html

	<><><><><><><><><><>

PHYSICAL CHEMISTRY 

WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON 

Convention Center, Room 200A 

Novel Hydrogen Chemistry (Sponsored by BlackLight Power, Inc.) 

R.L. Mills, Organizer, Presiding 

1:30-359. Observation of Extreme Ultraviolet Hydrogen Emission
>From 
Incandescently Heated Hydrogen Gas With Certain Catalysts. R. L.
Mills 
and Y. Lu 

2:00-360. Novel Inorganic Hydride. R. L. Mills 

2:30-361. Synthesis and Characterization of Potassium Iodo
Hydride. R. L. Mills 

3:00-362. Novel Hydride Compounds. B. Dhanadapani and J. He

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 08:33:23 1999
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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Re Boscoli
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At 02:51 PM 10/4/99 +0200, JEAN DELAGARDE wrote:

>Could Scott explain how targets of hydrated metal salts are compatible with
>a reaction temperature of 1000 degrees ?

No, I cannot.  In fact, the patent states that the method of driving off
the water of hydration (for subsequent re-hydration with heavy water) is to
heat the salts to 250C!  Obviously, if the target is heated to 1000C, the
heavy water will leave rapidly.  I would expect this to spoil the vacuum
and consequently shut down the ion beam.

Another thing I cannot reconcile is the report of 10^5 neutrons per second
and the report that the sample heats rapidly to 1000C and sometimes even
melts the steel holder.  The former indicates a total fusion output power
of about 0.1 microwatts (assuming 7.3 MeV energy release per emitted
neutron).  The latter suggests an output power of ~1000
watts...10,000,000,000 times more!



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 10:53:37 1999
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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:46:49 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Latest news on nuclear accident "... by hand"
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>This means they routinely mixed the materials in a bucket instead of the
>automatic mixing machine. It does not mean they actually stuck their hands
>into radioactive sludge. Even these people are smarter than that. The
>latest revelation in this morning's Yomiuri says that there was a
>unauthorized manual at the plant listing illegal 'time-saving' shortcuts.
>
>	On Sunday, Ibaraki prefectural police set up a headquarters to direct
>	about 100 personnel in an investigation of the nation's worst nuclear
>	disaster. Police also obtained a manual detailing an illegal process
>	for the production of uranium fuel that was drawn up by Tokyo-based
>	JCO.
>
>(Yomiuri English web site)
>
>Witnesses, including one of the gravely ill workers, have testified that
>they routinely mixed more than the mandated 2.4 kg. The senior worker said
>that he has never heard of the "criticality." In other words, they had no
>idea what they were doing.
>
>As of last night the three workers were still alive, which is a medical
>miracle.
>
>The government oversight agency shares a lot of the blame for this. It is
>run by none other than A. Arima, ex-Pres of Tokyo University and arch-enemy
>of cold fusion -- Japan's answer to John Huizenga. He says this accident
>was caused by the "immorality" of the corporation. He is right in some
>sense, but there is plenty of blame to go around. The government
>rubber-stamped permission to operate this facility after troubling
>accidents revealed a pattern of incompetence and carelessness.
>
>- Jed

***{Until someone explains to me why they would enrich the uranium *far*
beyond the level necessary to render it usable in a reactor, I will
continue to regard this entire series of press releases as a cover-up. As I
explained earlier, uranium only needs to be enriched enough so that it will
burn in a carefully designed reactor where a moderator is present to slow
the neutrons, if the goal is to produce electricity. Without a moderator
and a reaction environment that has been carefully engineered to
concentrate the neutrons, the reaction simply will not go--assuming that
reactor grade uranium is used. This means you can't simply pour reactor
grade uranium hexafluoride into a stainless steel bucket, pour in some
nitric acid, and achieve criticality. If anyone has any substantive
arguments against this conclusion, I would like to hear them.

In the absence of such reasoning, it would seem that what we are dealing
with here is *the will to believe*--which means: those who believe the
Japanese government's press releases are operating on the basis of the
premise that governments will not lie to us, even when they have a powerful
motive to do so, such as would be the case in Japan if the government does,
in fact, have a clandestine nuclear weapons development program in place.
For in that event, given the degree of nuclear phobia present in the
Japanese electorate, a massive reaction against incumbents of both major
parties would be virtually guaranteed, if the truth were to out. Thus, from
the standpoint of spin control, a cover story of the sort which we are
seeing would be indicated, and would be justified under the rubric of
"national security."

Based on what I know at present, the cover-up theory seems far more
plausible than simply taking these absurd stories of technological
buffoonery at face value.

--Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 10:59:35 1999
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Schauberger Flying Saucer
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>Dans un courrier daté du 03/10/99 21:20:24é), mjones jump.net a écrit :
>
>> ***{One problem I see with attempting to use this idea to provide lift for
>>  an aircraft is the tendency of the motor to rotate in the opposite
>>  direction as the Schauberger disk. This counter-rotation problem is solved
>>  by helicopter manufacturers by placing a second, small propellor at the end
>>  of a beam projecting from the craft, to oppose the counter-rotation. How do
>>  you propose to deal with this difficulty without compromising the disk
>>  shape of the "flying saucer" craft? --Mitchell Jones}***
>
>I suggest you to do a very simple experiment for checking the fact, take the
>vortex bottle setup like the apparatus that I have showed at :
>http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/delany/256/html/vtxbottle.htm
>Put this setup on a sensitive rotating platform or tethered by a nylon wire (
>with no torsion please..), and check by yourself if a the vortex apparatus
>turn itself on its own axis while the vortex in the water run...
>
>If you no time for checking this, I will send you the answer...
>
>Jean-Louis Naudin

***{It seems to me incorrect to shift our focus from the Schauberger
device, the mechanics of which are rather obvious, to the vortex bottle
apparatus, which has mechanics that are *not* obvious. In the Schauberger
device, a motor is required to rotate the Schauberger disk, just as a motor
is required to rotate the blades of a helicopter. By Newton's third law
(the law of reaction), it is necessary that the disk exert an equal and
opposite force on the motor as compared to the force which the motor exerts
on the disk. Thus if the disk is set into clockwise rotation by the motor,
then the reactive force will set the motor into counterclockwise motion.
Result: we have the same problem as that is faced by helicopter
manufacturers: the passenger compartment of the vehicle tends to rotate,
and a beam with a smaller propellor at the end must be attached, to
compensate. This analysis seems crystal clear to me, and it also seems
clear that it applies to the Schauberger device. On the other hand, even if
we assume that the vortex bottle apparatus will not rotate when suspended
from a thread, I fail to see the logic by which this phenomenon connects to
the Schauberger device, and thus it seems to me at this point to be
irrelevant to the question.

By the way, I did attempt the vortex bottle experiment, using 1 liter
bottles (which were all I had handy). With a 9 mm diameter hole, there was
no water flow at all, and with a 15 mm hole, the flow was intermittent,
with spurts of water in the down direction alternating with rising bubbles.
Could it be that you punched holes in the plastic bottles to assist the
airflow? (With an airtight seal, air must flow upward in order for water to
flow downward.)

--Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 11:39:26 1999
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Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 14:14:16 -0400
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Subject: Re: Ohmori & Mizuno in IE #27
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Tom Stolper writes:

	I assume that the fluent translation was done by Jed Rothwell.

Actually, the original was in English but Soo and I made many changes with
Ohmori's consent.


	The article answered a couple of questions I had . . .

Yes, sorry I did not get a chance to address them here.


	Ohmori & Mizuno end their article by saying that they don't
	think it would be  hard to scale up to 1000 kW or even 10,000 kW
	(that's 1 to 10 megawatts).   But who will try to scale up a
	device with a cathode that fails within an  hour?

Their statement is predicated on the hope that the destruction can be
avoided. That would be the first problem to solve.

- Jed

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Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 14:37:21 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Latest news on nuclear accident "... by hand"
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Michell Jones writes:

>***{Until someone explains to me why they would enrich the uranium *far*
>beyond the level necessary to render it usable in a reactor . . .

It's for a breeder reactor. If you want to know more, do your own homework.
There is plenty of info in English on the Japanese web sites.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 11:42:35 1999
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Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 14:43:29 -0700
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Colin Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
Subject: Re: Santilli's MagneGas
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Hi Vo,

At 03:25 PM 10/04/99 +0200, Jean forwarded:

>Applications of the MagneGas(TM) process: The combination of two patent-
>pending processes; the basic process that produces MagneGas, called
>PlasmaFlowArc(TM), 

It sounds similar to bio-gas patent # US 05417817 (issued May. 23, 1995 )
"Biomass gasification process and apparatus" by  Wilbur A. Dammann and
David W. Wallman. In this [AquaFuel-type] patent, the carbon that's
electrolytically lost to the electrolyte [the waste liquid Carboniferous
biomass material ] is auto-electrodeposited back onto the carbon rod(s).


>and a new process for magnetically bonding liquids that
>normally do not mix have permitted TTL to develop a set of completely new,
>effective and cost competitive methods for treating any non-radioactive
>liquid or soluble waste.

Something NEW (?) How does one magnetically bond non-mixing liquids? Does
anyone know anything about this process?  Sounds fascinating..

(and I wonder why a radioactive-liquid disclaimer.. That's odd. Why
wouldn't radioactive liquids work? In fact-- wouldn't they work even better
while reducing the radioactivity?)

Regards,
Colin Quinney

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 12:37:15 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Japan Nuclear Accident
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Mitchell Jones writes:

	Top Chinese leaders routinely threaten to launch nuclear
	missiles at the United States and brag that, due to their
	overpopulation problem, they would actually benefit from a
	nuclear exchange. Do such statements fit your definition of
	"insane"?

Here in the real world, on one occasion, one minor Chinese official who was
involved with U.S. negotiations over Taiwan made a snide comment about
attacking Los Angeles with nuclear weapons. The U.S. government demanded an
apology and the Chinese government apologized immediately. In the Jones
parallel universe this incident magically translates into "Top Chinese
leaders" who "routinely threaten" to launch missiles. That fits my
definition of insane.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 13:09:48 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Latest news on nuclear accident "... by hand"
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 16:16:00 -0400
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>The government oversight agency shares a lot of the blame for this. It is
>run by none other than A. Arima, ex-Pres of Tokyo University and arch-enemy
>of cold fusion -- Japan's answer to John Huizenga. He says this accident
>was caused by the "immorality" of the corporation. He is right in some
>sense, but there is plenty of blame to go around. The government
>rubber-stamped permission to operate this facility after troubling
>accidents revealed a pattern of incompetence and carelessness.
>
>- Jed

If you read the websites of ANY of the US nuclear industry watchdog
agencies, you will find that these conditions exist everywhere.  Unthinkable
practices such as pouring nuclear waste down public sewer drains, and into
open pits are quite common in this country's nuclear industry, and are
tolerated by the DOE inspectors.  Eye witness and whistleblower reports are
everywhere.  I've talked to some of these people myself.  These kinds of
things are daily practices at some places.

As for criticality, read the lastest on the Hanford tanks.  At least the
Japanese were only dealing with a few kilos in an open bucket.  Hanford has
tanks that are pressurized, and contain millions of gallons of this stuff.
It's right on the San Andreas fault line, too.  Those are in addition to the
tanks that are leaking into the ground and the stuff gets into the Columbia
River.  Last year, there was a big push to sell the entire plant and
processing facility to a guy who had been convicted of real estate fraud.
He was a big-time contributor to the Republican Party, and held a major
planning session for the Republican National Committee at his ranch on Widby
Island, just before I left.

One would have expected the opposing party, who is in control of the state
at the moment to have at least raised some objections, but to the surprise
of everyone, the Democrats Governor Locke, and Senator Murphy were almost
delirious in their endorsement of the idea, despite the obvious
environmental dangers and moral reasons for opposing the plan.  They
obviously had been paid off as well.

The lastest fiasco, however, and perhaps the most scary is the proposed plan
to ship nuclear waste to Russia for "storage and reprocessing".  The
proposed contract is reported to be worth around $150 billion US, and would
be "a real shot in the arm for the failing Russian economy", as one of the
proponents put it.  The plan was presented by a Russian hawk general, and
HUGE (hundreds of millions) sums have already been disbursed in bribes and
PR monies to make the deal legally possible in Russia.

When these kinds of monetary figures are thrown around, people loose all
sense of reason, and even some of the environmental groups are falling prey
to the temptation of minimizing the dangers in their reporting of them to
people in exchange for funding from the major corporations that will profit
from these ventures.

We need to impress upon the general populace that they have to actively
participate in the decision making process, and demand that this industry be
completely shut down around the world.  We have to demand that our
legislators consider the taking of bribes from these corporations as nothing
less than a crime against humanity, and that political leaders should be
tried, convicted, and jailed if they take this money.  That should go for
the corporate officers and major shareholders of the corporations that offer
the money as well.  Their assets should be seized and distributed to their
victims or put back into the public coffers.  If the company is not shut
down entirely because only a division was involved, then the division should
be shut down, and the parent company should be disallowed from bidding on
government contracts. 

This Japanese accident was minor in comparison to many of the others that
have happened, and the practices of this company are probably not nearly as
bad as they are here in the states.  You have to remember that in global
comparisons, our educational system ranks 5th in the world - not 1st, as
everyone would like to believe.  In fact, as a nation training engineers and
scientists, Japan has one of the highest, if not THE highest pecentage of
students being trained as engineers and scientists.
  
The majority of students in this country are business majors - professional
liars and thieves, simply because that is where the money is.  By the time
they graduate, they all have big goals, but no souls.  All of their
relationships with other people become "investments in time".

In other countries however, like Russia, China, India,  Pakistan, most of
the Middle East, or the Koreas, you might as well  forget about any kind of
regulation being put into practice, or trained personnel performing their
duties in compliance with any kind of safety standards. Many of the people
in positions of power today in the 3rd world capitalist countries had  their
degrees bought for them in very exclusive Swiss schools by their fathers who
were tribal chieftans or successful merchants.  I used to party with some of
these guys in Europe, so I know.  None of them actually went to school.
They were total barbarians with expensive cars and gold cards.

If we don't criminalize and remove this nuclear industry from the entire
planet immediately, and start cleaning up the enormous mess that is already
present, none of us have a future.  Not even the most highly trained and
most civilized people on this Earth have demonstrated the ability to safely
handle this form of energy.  That's a fact.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 13:21:33 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Latest news on nuclear accident "... by hand"
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Knuke writes:

>If you read the websites of ANY of the US nuclear industry watchdog
>agencies . . .

List one or two websites that you recommend, please.

- Jed

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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Japan Nuclear Accident
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 16:31:06 -0400
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. In the Jones
>parallel universe this incident magically translates into "Top Chinese
>leaders" who "routinely threaten" to launch missiles. That fits my
>definition of insane.
>
>- Jed

Uh, Jed, if you'll take a look at the official statements put out by the
Chinese government regarding Taiwan and the US you have to agree with Mitch.
China is a country consisting mainly of poor farmers, "work temple" factory
workers, and prison "organ donor" programs, all supporting the large nuclear
weapons program of an expansionist government.  That fits _my_ definition of
criminally insane.

Knuke

 
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 13:44:46 1999
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Subject: Re: Latest news on nuclear accident "... by hand"
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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That says it:

> Not even the most highly trained and
> most civilized people on this Earth have demonstrated the ability to safely
> handle this form of energy.  That's a fact.

And it makes criminals (ethically if not legally) of those who squander or
oppose opportunities to research the new energy possibilities like those
discussed on this list.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 13:56:42 1999
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While the World's top Politicians, that belong on Vortex B are Grinding
Grist.  :-)

 http://www.astro.keele.ac.uk/~aa/pages/sails.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 14:06:06 1999
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Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 17:01:12 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Japan Nuclear Accident
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Knuke writes:

>Uh, Jed, if you'll take a look at the official statements put out by the
>Chinese government regarding Taiwan and the US . . .

The only official statements I have seen were published in the New York
Times, and they included the apology for making the statement about bombing
Los Angeles. (Architecturally, LA deserves to be blown up, but . . .) Where
are the statements you refer to?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 14:25:05 1999
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Subject: Re: Japan Nuclear Accident
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At 05:01 PM 10/4/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Knuke writes:
>
>>Uh, Jed, if you'll take a look at the official statements put out by the
>>Chinese government regarding Taiwan and the US . . .
>
>The only official statements I have seen were published in the New York
>Times, and they included the apology for making the statement about bombing
>Los Angeles. (Architecturally, LA deserves to be blown up, but . . .) Where
>are the statements you refer to?
>
>- Jed


That is a shocking thing to say about LA, Jed, 
but I am no longer surprised.

Not sure which statements you two mean mean, 
but if you click here:
http://208.138.42.193/forum/a37f8306636d8.htm
and http://208.138.42.193/forum/a37f90d4167db.htm
then you will find a newgroup that has been
watching that scene closely.

 Another parallax view is here:
http://www.stratfor.com/SERVICES/GIU/REGION/ASIA/index.asp

   Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 14:38:43 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Japan Nuclear Accident
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Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>That is a shocking thing to say about LA, Jed, 
>but I am no longer surprised.

If you take a statement like that seriously, and you actually think I am in
favor of urban renewal by dropping nuclear bombs . . . I find that pretty
shocking. I'm shocked you're shocked! Or no, I mean I am no longer shocked.

Or . . . maybe you were joking? Naaaa . . .



>Not sure which statements you two mean mean, 
>but if you click here:
>http://208.138.42.193/forum/a37f8306636d8.htm
>and http://208.138.42.193/forum/a37f90d4167db.htm
>then you will find a newgroup that has been
>watching that scene closely.

Uh huh. Well, I took a quick look at these groups and I find statements and
"reports" originating in places like the Drudge Report, which is not what I
would call a trusted authority on Far East foreign policy or history. If
anyone can cite an actual, credible, original-source statement from the
Chinese Gov't about their nuclear strategy, I'd like to hear about it. I am
aware of the fact that 40 years ago Mao said fact that China could afford
to lose millions of people in a nuclear war. He also called the atom bomb a
"paper tiger," which I think is not far from the truth.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 15:44:15 1999
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From: "John Logajan" <jlogajan yahoo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.19991004170112.007aed10 pop.mindspring.com><19991004203106218.AAA285@mail.lcia.com@lizard> <3.0.6.32.19991004173536.007b16b0@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Japan Nuclear Accident
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:42:25 -0500
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Jed wrote:

> Uh huh. Well, I took a quick look at these groups and I find statements
and
> "reports" originating in places like the Drudge Report, which is not what
I
> would call a trusted authority on Far East foreign policy or history.

Actually, Matt Drudge's track record for getting the story right has been
as good or better than most major media outlets.  This is in part because
his sources are usually major media reporters who's editors are sitting
on a story for one reason or another.

I didn't read the particular story closely either, but it looks like
Drudge was simply quoting Talbot out of a Time Magazine
article.

I know liberals love to hate Drudge, but Drudge just happens to
be right (or at least reportorially accurate) almost all the time.

(Reportorially accurate is a term I just made up, but I mean that
he accurately reports what people have said -- which is different
than whether what they said is true.  If you want to hold reporters
to a higher standard then almost nothing Clinton ever said could get
published anywhere by anyone.)

--
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan yahoo.com  --  651-633-8918 -
 - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 17:41:56 1999
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	Is there a patent number for Sant. process?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 19:24:15 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Japan Nuclear Accident
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 22:29:55 -0400
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>Knuke writes:
>
>>Uh, Jed, if you'll take a look at the official statements put out by the
>>Chinese government regarding Taiwan and the US . . .
>
>The only official statements I have seen were published in the New York
>Times, and they included the apology for making the statement about bombing
>Los Angeles. (Architecturally, LA deserves to be blown up, but . . .) Where
>are the statements you refer to?
>
>- Jed

I read the local Villages paper, The New York Times, I get CNN e-mailed to
me through the net, and I also read the Wall Street Journal every so often,
but I haven't bothered to document every nuance of which Chinese official
said what or when.  One of my best friends is a foreign policy analyst, and
does that sort of thing. Another old friend was an analyst and policy writer
for the Tri-Lateral Commission, and I think that I can safely say from my
discussions with them that the current Chinese government is not Pro
American.  Another one of my best friends is a close, personal friend of the
President of Taiwan, an outspoken critic of the Communist Chinese
government.  I know a number of other people, some of them former Chinese
nationals, who are either presently members of the State Department, doing
some kind of business, volunteer medical work, or have lived in China for as
long as 25 years as missionaries, and I know from my discussions with them
that they would all agree with what I have written.

You asked in another post for some references to the nuclear industry
watchdog sites.  There are hundreds of them actually, and they are all
linked up so you could spend a great deal of time reading just this stuff.
I posted one yesterday:

http://www.nuclearactive.org/

that had some very good information in it.  Here are a few more that I
recommend.

http://www.citizen.org/
This is The Public Citizen Site, founded by Ralph Nader.  Yes, the scourge
of the business community, and well... one of my few personal heroes.  They
have, among many other sections, a good section on Nuclear Safety and
Nuclear Waste.

http://www.ieer.org/
This is the Institute for Energy and Environmental Research in Maryland.

http://eatthestate.org/
Eat The State is a volunteer Seattle effort that I now get sent to me
through the e-mail.  I used to listen to them on KCMU and read their rag in
the cafes when I lived there.  This one is my personal favorite because I
have met some of the contributors/characters, and I really like their
attitudes, political positions, tattoos, piercings, and writing styles.
Geov Parrish and Maria Thomchick write with a passion for the truth that I
hadn't seen in decades.  I loved being in that town.  Much of the news is
locally oriented with a lot of stuff on Hanford, but if you read this
publication, they also list other organizations that are more nationally or
internationally focused, such as www.corpwatch.org and the like.

If you actually do the followup reading, you can find out which US companies
own slave labor camps, forced prostitution rings, and sweat shops for child
laborers.  You'll never buy another Mickey Mouse T-shirt again.  You can
learn which US corporations are sponsoring the training of the various 3rd
World death squads in Fort Bragg, and why.  Who is torturing, killing, and
imprisoning environmentalists, and who are the largest and most blatant
polluters  Which US major corporations have been tried and convicted of
major crimes this year, which corporations own what politicians, government
regulatory agencies, and so on.

Seattle, BTW, is hosting a big World Trade Organization Conference in
November.  There should be some major demonstrations, and Eat The State is
reporting on those efforts.  Apparently, FBI agents have been paying visits
to the homes of Seattle activists who have expressed anti-WTO sentiments
recently.  There is an article about it in the current ETS.

http://www.prs.net/midi.html
This is the Classical Music MIDI Archive, an URL that I recently discovered
after I finally got the sound card that I bought a year ago, hooked up and
functional.  This site has nothing to do with politics, religion, science or
business,  but if you do actually plow through some of the material that is
listed above, you will need something to soothe the anger and grief, and
hopefully, to get some of images of the suffering out of your mind.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  4 20:57:50 1999
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Mitchell Jones writes:
> 
>         Top Chinese leaders routinely threaten to launch nuclear
>         missiles at the United States and brag that, due to their
>         overpopulation problem, they would actually benefit from a
>         nuclear exchange. Do such statements fit your definition of
>         "insane"?
> 
> Here in the real world, on one occasion, one minor Chinese official who was
> involved with U.S. negotiations over Taiwan made a snide comment about
> attacking Los Angeles with nuclear weapons. The U.S. government demanded an
> apology and the Chinese government apologized immediately. In the Jones
> parallel universe this incident magically translates into "Top Chinese
> leaders" who "routinely threaten" to launch missiles. 

(chuckle) :-)

>That fits my
> definition of insane.
>

Jed, you better be carefull. In the "Jones Parallel Universe" a
"killfile" means exactly what it sounds like. To Jones at least...

JO
 
> - Jed

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Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 01:16:10 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Japan Nuclear Accident
Resent-Message-ID: <"3aqVz.0.1k2.gWP-t" mx1>
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>Mitchell Jones writes:
>
>	Top Chinese leaders routinely threaten to launch nuclear
>	missiles at the United States and brag that, due to their
>	overpopulation problem, they would actually benefit from a
>	nuclear exchange. Do such statements fit your definition of
>	"insane"?
>
>Here in the real world, on one occasion, one minor Chinese official who was
>involved with U.S. negotiations over Taiwan made a snide comment about
>attacking Los Angeles with nuclear weapons. The U.S. government demanded an
>apology and the Chinese government apologized immediately. In the Jones
>parallel universe this incident magically translates into "Top Chinese
>leaders" who "routinely threaten" to launch missiles.

***{In point of fact, you have no idea what sources of information led to
my statement. For the record: I have been coming across
nuclear-sabre-rattling by high-ranking Chinese officials for the past
several months, as reported in various publications to which I
subscribe--e.g., *Strategic Investing*, *The Doug Casey Report*, *The
MacIlvany Intelligence Adviser*, *Richard Maybury's Early Warning Report*,
and several others. I doubt that you have heard of most of these
publications, for two reasons: (1) they cost, on average, about $200 per
year, and (b) they are *not* slavishly devoted to licking the boots of the
parasites who rule us, as you evidently prefer. --Mitchell Jones}***

That fits my
>definition of insane.

***{Yup. Crazy as a loon, that's me. There is, of course, no possibility
that you are lashing out in frustration, after having repeatedly had your
Olympian pronouncements about politics shot down in flames! --MJ}***

>
>- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  5 06:12:02 1999
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 <3.0.6.32.19991004101321.00797ec0 pop.mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:08:47 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Latest news on nuclear accident "... by hand"
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>Michell Jones writes:
>
>>***{Until someone explains to me why they would enrich the uranium *far*
>>beyond the level necessary to render it usable in a reactor . . .
>
>It's for a breeder reactor. If you want to know more, do your own homework.
>There is plenty of info in English on the Japanese web sites.

***{While breeder reactors can be used to generate electricity, their claim
to fame is their efficiency at producing plutonium, a feat which they
accomplish by using dangerously enriched uranium to shrink the critical
size of the nuclear core (fissile material plus moderator) to a tiny
volume, so that the outer regions can be surrounded by U238, which is then
converted to plutonium by radiative capture of thermal neutrons. Because of
the hazards associated with working with highly enriched uranium and
plutonium, and the potential political fallout from such hazards if and
when they manifest themselves, the supposition that Japan would use breeder
reactors to generate power is absurd. Standard, non- breeder nuclear
reactors, which use *totally safe* reactor grade uranium, and which are--by
far--the safest form of power generation, would be the obvious way for
Japan to go, were they not pursuing a clandestine nuclear weapons
development program. Thus if, as you say, this accident occurred because
highly enriched uranium was being produced to feed a breeder reactor, then
we have what amounts to smoking gun proof that the Japanese are developing
nuclear weapons--as I pointed out at the beginning. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>- Jed

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: This just came in
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:37:02 -0400
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-- Radiation leak reported at South Korea's Wolsung nuclear
power reactor No. 3 in northern Kyongsang Province; 22 workers
exposed --  Yonhap news agency.


For complete coverage of this story visit:
http://CNN.com

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  5 07:37:30 1999
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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 10:34:50 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Monju breeder reactor
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Mitchell Jones, who was apparently unaware that the Japanese have been
working on a breeder reactor for the last 30 years, writes:

	. . . the supposition that Japan would use breeder reactors to
	generate power is absurd.

Yes, it is absurd, but it is true. Many truths about the world are absurd.
That is the human condition. The reactor is called Monju, the bodhisattva
of wisdom and intellect. It has cost $5 billion so far. See: New York
Times, December 20, 1992, Business Section 3, page 1, titled: "Japan's
Nuclear Fiasco." Many Japanese experts agree that it is absurd, but the
project is like hot fusion program or the energizer bunny: it goes and
goes. A senior Japanese official who asked not to be identified is quoted,
"It is almost inconceivable that such a good idea would have turned this
bad. We spent the last 20 years building this project, and we'll probably
spend the next 20 killing it."


	Standard, non- breeder nuclear reactors . . . would be the
	obvious way for Japan to go, 

That was not clear 30 years ago when the program was started. The economics
of uranium have altered radically. If world growth in vision reactors had
continued at the rate projected when the program started, and no major
deposits of uranium had been discovered, uranium would cost a great deal
more than it does today and the program might make economic sense. Instead,
this reactor will cost 5 to 15 times more to operate than a uranium fission
reactor. A senior official of Tokyo Electric Power said, "in public we will
tell you that this is taking the long-term perspective, but what everyone
knows, and won't say in public, is that this will cost consumers a
fortune." This is another illustration of the fact that large-scale
long-range planning seldom works. See Freeman Dyson, "Infinite in all
Directions," (Harper and Row, 1989), chapter 8, "Quick Is Beautiful."


	. . . were they not pursuing a clandestine nuclear weapons
	development program.

Nothing about the Monju project is clandestine. Every detail of it has been
published, every machine blueprinted, every cost and engineering estimate a
matter of public record.


	Thus if, as you say, this accident occurred because highly
	enriched uranium was being produced to feed a breeder reactor,
	then we have what amounts to smoking gun proof that the Japanese
	are developing nuclear weapons

No, it it is not proof, but I'm sure you will believe that from now on,
based on zero evidence, even though the Japanese have no concievable
motivation to make nuclear weapons, and no use for them. You are like the
Japanese planners: once you get an idea in your head, no amount of
evidence to the contrary will change your mind.

- Jed

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: This just came in
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>-- Radiation leak reported at South Korea's Wolsung nuclear
>power reactor No. 3 in northern Kyongsang Province; 22 workers
>exposed --  Yonhap news agency.
>
>
>For complete coverage of this story visit:
>http://CNN.com
>
>Knuke

***{Choice does not occur in a vacuum. We must compare the risks of various
forms of power generation, rather than focus solely on the risks of nuclear
power, if we want to make reasoned decisions. That means we must recognize
that thousands of people are killed every year in the fossil fuel
cycle--i.e., in mining, transporting, refining, and burning fossil fuels.
Because uranium is a vastly more concentrated energy source than are
chemically based fuels, vastly less of it must be extracted, transported,
refined, and burned, in order to produce a given amount of energy. That
means far fewer people are exposed to accidents, when the energy source is
nuclear, than when it is not. Result: nuclear reactors have, by far, the
lowest cost in terms of deaths and injuries per unit of energy produced.
[For details, see *The Health Hazards of Not Going Nuclear*, by Dr. Petr
Beckmann.] --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>Michael T. Huffman
>Huffman Technology Company
>1121 Dustin Drive
>The Villages, Florida 32159
>(352)259-1276
>knuke LCIA.COM
>http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane." 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  5 08:05:29 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: WA-A-A-Y OFF TOPIC: A real breakthrough in technology!
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Forget cold fusion, here is something really earthshaking:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/318124.asp

	"Adult industry's newest twist: Devices that vibrate, tickle at
	click of a mouse

	Vivid Entertainment Inc. hopes to begin selling its "cyber sex suit,"
	which comes in both male and female models, early next year.

As Samuel F. B. Morse said on a similar occasion, "What hath God wrought?"
Or, as paraphrased by Walt Kelly: "What hath got rot?"

- Jed

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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Monju breeder reactor
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At 10:34 AM 10/5/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
	Thus if, as you say, this accident occurred because highly
>	enriched uranium was being produced to feed a breeder reactor,
>	then we have what amounts to smoking gun proof that the Japanese
>	are developing nuclear weapons
>
>No, it it is not proof, but I'm sure you will believe that from now on,
>based on zero evidence, even though the Japanese have no concievable
>motivation to make nuclear weapons, and no use for them. 



  "... no concievable motivation "   ?

 1.  http://www.basicint.org/pr_japcoy.htm
 "Japan continues to accumulate large stocks of plutonium, 
  which outweigh its capacity to use as reactor fuel."

 2.  North Korea.


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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: This just came in
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

Choice does not occur in a vacuum. We must compare the risks of various
>forms of power generation, rather than focus solely on the risks of nuclear
>power, if we want to make reasoned decisions. That means we must recognize
>that thousands of people are killed every year in the fossil fuel
>cycle--i.e., in mining, transporting, refining, and burning fossil fuels.

Yes, and also the thousands of people killed mining uranium, in places like
India. (See http://cnn.com/ASIANOW/time/magazine/99/1011/japan.india.html).
Also the hundreds of thousands maimed and killed by the Chernobyl accident.
If the entire world would abide by the engineering standards of the U.S.
and Western Europe, nuclear would be the safest form of energy, but
unfortunately most of the world is run like India, Russia, Ukraine and
China, and the Tokaimura plant in Japan.


>Result: nuclear reactors have, by far, the
>lowest cost in terms of deaths and injuries per unit of energy produced.

That's debatable. It is only true when you ignore the third world. Also,
fission energy costs far more than conventional energy, and it will cost
even more when decommissioning costs are accounted for. It is morally wrong
to take two or three times more money from people for electricity than you
need. If you leave the money in their hands, they might spend it on
something to improve their lives, perhaps mitigating the effects of
pollution. Of course, pollution is horrible and I am no friend of coal
mining or combustion power. But the issue is complicated. I do not think
there are simple Yes or No answers with today's technology. With cold
fusion there will be simple answers, if we can ever get it off the ground!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  5 08:59:56 1999
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Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:53:42 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Monju breeder reactor
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>Mitchell Jones, who was apparently unaware that the Japanese have been
>working on a breeder reactor for the last 30 years

***{Yup. --MJ}***

, writes:
>
>	. . . the supposition that Japan would use breeder reactors to
>	generate power is absurd.
>
>Yes, it is absurd, but it is true. Many truths about the world are absurd.
>That is the human condition. The reactor is called Monju, the bodhisattva
>of wisdom and intellect. It has cost $5 billion so far. See: New York
>Times, December 20, 1992, Business Section 3, page 1, titled: "Japan's
>Nuclear Fiasco." Many Japanese experts agree that it is absurd, but the
>project is like hot fusion program or the energizer bunny: it goes and
>goes. A senior Japanese official who asked not to be identified is quoted,
>"It is almost inconceivable that such a good idea would have turned this
>bad. We spent the last 20 years building this project, and we'll probably
>spend the next 20 killing it."

***{Given the threat posed by an expansionistic, nuclear-armed China, the
Japanese would be well-advised to remain on course with this program. They
need nuclear weapons desperately, and without the capacity to produce their
own plutonium, that capability will be in jeopardy. Hopefully, political
expediency will not be sufficient to kill a program that is necessary to
their national survival. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>	Standard, non- breeder nuclear reactors . . . would be the
>	obvious way for Japan to go,
>
>That was not clear 30 years ago when the program was started. The economics
>of uranium have altered radically. If world growth in vision reactors had
>continued at the rate projected when the program started, and no major
>deposits of uranium had been discovered, uranium would cost a great deal
>more than it does today and the program might make economic sense. Instead,
>this reactor will cost 5 to 15 times more to operate than a uranium fission
>reactor. A senior official of Tokyo Electric Power said, "in public we will
>tell you that this is taking the long-term perspective, but what everyone
>knows, and won't say in public, is that this will cost consumers a
>fortune." This is another illustration of the fact that large-scale
>long-range planning seldom works. See Freeman Dyson, "Infinite in all
>Directions," (Harper and Row, 1989), chapter 8, "Quick Is Beautiful."

***{In a democracy, political expediency frequency takes precedence over
national survival, as is demonstrated on a virtually daily basis by the
Arab-Israeli "peace" talks, where addle-brained Israeli politicians give up
defensible borders in exchange for promises and scraps of paper from those
who have promised to destroy them. Such examples explain why persons in
government who have a clear view of what national survival requires,
frequently use secret programs to reach essential goals that the voters
would never permit them to accomplish openly. In the Israeli case, there is
no way for the government to retain defensible borders *in secret,* and
thus the buffoons in the Isreali electroate are a real threat to national
survival. But it *is* possible to develop nuclear weapons in secret, and
the evidence indicates that the Japanese government is doing just that,
despite your determination to believe otherwise. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>	. . . were they not pursuing a clandestine nuclear weapons
>	development program.
>
>Nothing about the Monju project is clandestine. Every detail of it has been
>published, every machine blueprinted, every cost and engineering estimate a
>matter of public record.

***{Another Olympian pronouncement, based on nothing. How would you know
whether there is a clandestine purpose? How would you know if there are
details that have not been published? How would you know whether there are
costs and engineering estimates that are not a matter of public record? Do
you claim to be privy to the highest military secrets of Japan? If so,
prove it; if not, stop wasting our time with hot air. --MJ}***

>
>
>	Thus if, as you say, this accident occurred because highly
>	enriched uranium was being produced to feed a breeder reactor,
>	then we have what amounts to smoking gun proof that the Japanese
>	are developing nuclear weapons
>
>No, it it is not proof, but I'm sure you will believe that from now on,
>based on zero evidence, even though the Japanese have no concievable
>motivation to make nuclear weapons, and no use for them.

***{Amazing. I have pointed out to you repeatedly that the Japanese face a
nuclear armed, expansionistic foe (Red China) which has repeatedly
demonstrated a total lack of regard for morality, human rights, and even
human life itself, and which is given to nuclear-sabre-rattling. I have
also repeatedly pointed out that the Japanese have already had the
experience of being forced to submit to an enemy by means of nuclear
weapons, and, thus, that the need for a nuclear deterrent must be obvious
to their military strategists. In addition, you claim that they have had a
breeder reactor program in place for 30 years, and you have openly admitted
that it makes no sense when considered from the standpoint of electricity
generation, and yet you say I have "zero evidence" of the existence of a
Japanese nuclear weapons program, and that the Japanese have "no
conceivable motivation to make nuclear weapons," and "no use for them."
Wow! --MJ}***

You are like the
>Japanese planners: once you get an idea in your head, no amount of
>evidence to the contrary will change your mind.

***{Sounds more like a description of you than of me. --MJ}***

>
>- Jed


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The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Monju breeder reactor
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

>***{Another Olympian pronouncement, based on nothing. How would you know
>whether there is a clandestine purpose?

Because, as I pointed out earlier, if there was a clandestine purpose, it
would inevitably leak, and the government would be thrown out of office. A
"secret" nuclear bomb program in Japan is about as plausible as a secret
U.S. - U.N. fleet of black helicopters and P.O.W. camps. Only a paranoid
right-wing nut would believe such fantasies.


>***{Amazing. I have pointed out to you repeatedly that the Japanese face a
>nuclear armed, expansionistic foe (Red China) . . .

China is not a "foe" of Japan. There is indication that the Chinese have
any designs on Japan. Not even the extremist Japanese right-wing groups
make this claim. In fact, you are the first person I have ever heard of who
thinks this. The rightists in Japan say they fear Russia and North Korea.


I have
>also repeatedly pointed out that the Japanese have already had the
>experience of being forced to submit to an enemy by means of nuclear
>weapons, and, thus, that the need for a nuclear deterrent must be obvious
>to their military strategists.

They submitted to conventional arms and the submarine blockade. The atom
bombs caused only a small fraction of the casualties. Furthermore, the
bombs did not and would not have ended the war if there had not already
been strong political pressure within Japan to end it. Even after the
second bomb was dropped, the military leaders demanded that the war
continue. The civilian government ministers and the Emperor, who had been
trying to end the war for months, used the bomb as a lever to outvote the
army and navy in the Imperial Council. The militarists attempted a coup
d'etat but it was put down by loyalist troops.

Because they have actual experience with nuclear weapons, the Japanese
voters know better than anyone that a nuclear war would be futile. Neither
side could win. It would be suicide. There is no chance the public will
allow nuclear weapons or serious rearmament. As long as Japan remains a
democracy no nation has anything to fear from it. Not China, and not us.
The likelihood that Japan will re-arm and revert to militarism is roughly
as great as the likelihood that Georgia and Virginia will send armies to
invade Pennsylvania and refight the battle of Gettysburg. Naturally, there
are still a few fire-eating, xenophobic fascists in Japan, just as there
are unreformed Confederates here in Georgia, but fortunately they are a
tiny minority. Progress in civilization is slow, but sometimes people learn
a lesson. Some nightmares will not be revisited.

Mitchell: This is getting off-topic and political, so I'll drop the
subject. If you wish to respond I suggest you move to the gab channel
Vortex-BL. I won't respond because I am putting you back on my auto-delete
list for a while.

- Jed

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 <19991005143702984.AAA244 mail.lcia.com@lizard>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:04:02 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: This just came in
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>Choice does not occur in a vacuum. We must compare the risks of various
>>forms of power generation, rather than focus solely on the risks of nuclear
>>power, if we want to make reasoned decisions. That means we must recognize
>>that thousands of people are killed every year in the fossil fuel
>>cycle--i.e., in mining, transporting, refining, and burning fossil fuels.
>
>Yes, and also the thousands of people killed mining uranium, in places like
>India. (See http://cnn.com/ASIANOW/time/magazine/99/1011/japan.india.html).

***{Unlike you, I do not uncritically accept the unsupported assertions of
environmentalist zealots. Result: I regard the claims made at the site
referenced by you, above, to be of no more value than the equally
unsupported denials by the state corporation that is doing the mining. In
any event, whether the claims are true or false, they are irrelevant to the
question of whether nuclear power is the safest form of power generation,
because that is a fact proven by overwhelming statistical evidence.
--Mitchell Jones}***

>Also the hundreds of thousands maimed and killed by the Chernobyl accident.

***{Many of the details of what was going on in Chernobyl remain unknown to
this day. What is certain, however, is that the operation was wildly in
violation of best engineering practices, and, thus, is irrelevant to the
question of the safety of plants that are run properly. (For example, the
Chernobyl plant had no containment building, and the control rods were
arranged so that, in the event of a power failure, they fell *out* of the
reactor, rather than into it, as is the case in western plants. Instead of
automatic shutdown, in short, the result was automatic meltdown!) To
suggest that well engineered facilities ought to be judged by such results
makes precisely as much sense as judging "cold fusion" by the results of
obviously botched replication efforts. You cannot reasonably advocate the
former while decrying the latter, because they represent two variants of
the same fallacy. --Mitchell Jones}***

>If the entire world would abide by the engineering standards of the U.S.
>and Western Europe, nuclear would be the safest form of energy, but
>unfortunately most of the world is run like India, Russia, Ukraine and
>China, and the Tokaimura plant in Japan.

***{When we say that a mechanical device is safe, we mean *safe if employed
in accordance with best practices.* This applies regardless of whether the
subject under discussion is nuclear reactors, automobiles, aircraft,
bulldozers, fork lifts, or whatever. When you attempt to deal with this
issue on any other basis, you drop the context which is necessary to make
rational discussion possible. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>>Result: nuclear reactors have, by far, the
>>lowest cost in terms of deaths and injuries per unit of energy produced.
>
>That's debatable. It is only true when you ignore the third world.

***{Yup: it is only true when you ignore the irrelevant. Just as the
automobile is safe when utilized in the proper manner, so the nuclear power
energy cycle, when run according to the engineering standards established
in the western countries, is the safest form of power generation. Moreover,
this applies regardless of the country where the plants are operated,
provided only that they are run in accordance with proper engineering
standards. --Mitchell Jones}***

 Also,
>fission energy costs far more than conventional energy, and it will cost
>even more when decommissioning costs are accounted for.

***{Over the long term the cost differences have been slight, and have
sometimes favored the fossil fuel cycle and at other times have favored the
nuclear power cycle. Worse, most of the costs of nuclear power are due to
heavy handed regulation by politically motivated bureaucrats, whereas the
recent advantage of the fossil fuel cycle has been due to an oil glut that
may prove to be temporary. If it doesn't, then the immense benefits of the
fossil fuel cycle to the environment--e.g., raising the atmospheric level
of CO2, thereby vastly increasing worldwide biomass totals--would argue in
favor of continuing to rely on it. However, this is a decision that should
be left up to the private sector, and should be based on comparative costs
rather than on the unarguable environmental benefits of fossil fuels.
--Mitchell Jones}***

 It is morally wrong
>to take two or three times more money from people for electricity than you
>need.

***{True enough, but that would not be possible if electric utilities were
not government granted monopolies. In any case, that is a separate issue
from the question of the relative safety of nuclear power. --Mitchell
Jones}***

If you leave the money in their hands, they might spend it on
>something to improve their lives, perhaps mitigating the effects of
>pollution. Of course, pollution is horrible and I am no friend of coal
>mining or combustion power.

***{I am. CO2 is food for plants, and plants are food for animals. By means
of the fossil fuel cycle, vast tonnages of carbon are returned to the
biosphere that have been lost to it for millions of years, to the benefit
of every living thing on this planet. --Mitchell Jones}***

But the issue is complicated. I do not think
>there are simple Yes or No answers with today's technology. With cold
>fusion there will be simple answers, if we can ever get it off the ground!

***{Assuming that CF even works. On the other hand, we *know* that nuclear
reactors work, and that when operated according to best engineering
practices, they are the safest form of power generation. --Mitchell
Jones}***

>
>- Jed

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The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."

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Subject: Book: "The Innovator's Dilemma"
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I read a nice little book this weekend about business, published by an
obscure organization called the Harvard Business School. Most books about
business are deadly boring, but this one kept my attention. It is by
Clayton Christensen, "The Innovators Dilemma: when new technologies cause
great firms to fail," (Harvard Business School Press, 1997). It was so good
I went back to get a second copy for Gene, but now I cannot find the first
copy. I think I may have accidentally returned it to the library inside a
stack of other books.

It covers some of the themes I have discussed in articles in I.E., like the
S-curve, and the four stages of market need. The S-curve describes the pace
of progress in most technologies. Things are difficult at first and
progress is slow, then there is a burst of progress (the upward turn in the
S) and finally progress slows down as the technology matures. The four
phases of market need (or customer motivation) are described in Chapter 8.
They are:

Phase 1: Competition based upon capacity, or capability. Attracts pioneers.
Phase 2: Competition based upon size.
phase 3 Competition based upon reliability.
phase 4: Competition based upon price. The product becomes a commodity.

Another way to express this is to say that products attract people in
successive waves first by performance, then reliability, convenience, and
finally price.

The main theme of this book is the difference between what Christensen
calls "sustaining" and "disruptive" technologies. A sustaining technology
is one that improves the state-of-the-art and makes products more appealing
to the existing customer base. Sustaining technology generally costs more
and it is more sophisticated. Disruptive technology is an innovation which
is cheaper on a per unit basis, yet more expensive and less attractive to
established customers. Disruptive technology is simpler. It may be based on
a new breakthrough, or it may be based on older technology which has been
repackaged or revived. To succeed in selling disruptive technology you must
find new customers. The best place to look is in an emerging market. To
give an example we are all familiar with, in 1981 Seagate introduced the
5.25 in. Winchester hard disk drive. Compare it to the existing 8-inch drives:

				eight inch drives		5.25 inch drives
				(minicomputer market)	(desktop computer mkt)
Capacity (MB)			60				10
Physical volume (cu. in.)	566				150
Weight (lbs.)			21				6
Access time (milliseconds)	30				160
Cost per megabyte		$50				$200
Unit cost			$3000				$2000

(Table from Christensen, page 15)

Minicomputer users wanted the most cost-effective disk drives -- the most
megabytes per dollar and the fastest performance. They did not care how
much these drives weighed or how much space they took up. People in the
emerging desktop computer market, on the other hand, wanted a low
unit-cost, and a compact, light-weight drive. They were willing to
sacrifice cost-effectiveness for these other benefits. If Seagate had gone
after the existing minicomputer market it would have swiftly gone out of
business. Instead, it pursued customers who wanted this variation of the
technology. Predictably, the 5.25 inch drives improved more rapidly than
the eight inch drives, because they were based on simpler technology. By
1987 the capacity of the 5.25 inch drives met the demand in the
minicomputer market, even though eight inch drives were still faster and
had higher capacity. Eight inch drives had gone beyond the needs of the
market, and they not improved as rapidly or fallen in price as rapidly as
the five inch models, so they were soon supplanted by the smaller drives.
Companies which had stuck with the old eight inch technology swiftly went
out of business. They were "held captive by their customers," as
Christensen puts it. Companies which tried to introduce 5.25 inch drives
two years after Seagate and others entered the business also went belly up.

Christensen also explains that "what goes up, can't go down." Once a
company begin selling to the high-end market (the "carriage trade" as it's
called), it cannot easily back down and introduce cheaper models. A company
selling high-capacity 60 MB eight inch drives has difficulty finding a
market for cheaper, slower, less cost-effective five inch drive. Also,
large companies cannot break into small markets easily. They often develop
the disruptive technology, but then they seem to be at a loss over what to
do with it, and who to sell it to. Christensen says these problems are
caused by various complex factors such as return on investment and
corporate structure. The details are beyond the scope of this discussion,
but very interesting and worth reading about.

These are astute observations. For long time I have felt that cold fusion
will never be sold in the existing energy market, by existing energy
providers, for the kinds of reasons Christensen describes in this book.

The book includes many lively examples from different industries, mainly
the computer hard disk industry but also steel minimills, hydraulic
excavators, and insulin. It touches on my old favorite, sailing ships vs.
steamships from 1850 to 1900. The writing is nontechnical and the pace is
quick, although it is repetitive. It looks like a collection of essays,
some of which repeat the same theme and examples verbatim. You can skip
some of the chapters. You could skip the footnotes too, but they are
extensive and helpful. Some are almost mini essays. Footnotes are often the
most interesting part of a book.

- Jed

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: This just came in
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I wrote:

>If the entire world would abide by the engineering standards of the U.S.
>and Western Europe, nuclear would be the safest form of energy, but
>unfortunately most of the world is run like India, Russia, Ukraine and
>China, and the Tokaimura plant in Japan.

This thought is incomplete, and confusing. I meant to say that if we must
have badly engineered power plants run by idiots, they should be combustion
plants, not nuclear. Nuclear energy requires higher standards of education
and tighter control. A combustion plant can cause damage. Russian plants
explode sometimes the coal supplies are soaked in rain. A U.S. expert from
the T.V.A. told me the T.V.A. is assisting them with this problem. The
point is, this kind of damage is localized and of short-term duration
compared to the damage from a fission plant disaster.

I think natural gas is the best choice of fossil fuels. Coal is the worst,
but unfortunately it is the cheapest and most abundant in many parts of the
world.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  5 13:24:35 1999
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Subject: Re: Monju breeder reactor
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:12:22 -0400
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The simple fact is that until and unless the Cold Fusion Elite can get off
their grids and make something useful, fission Breeder Reactors are
mankind's best hope of avoiding Greenhouse Death, period.   There is *NO*
credible debate on this point, presuming one believes in Global Warming.
Not ANY.   There isn't any glimmer of hope that hot fusion will save us, and
'conservation' is a myth and a lie, because future populations will require
higher standards of living than our own, not lower.

The Breeder Reactor is a wonderful thing, which not only eliminates all of
the nasty waste of fission technology, but also delivers unlimited fuel.
Only a *madman* would oppose/obstruct the breeder reactor program, either
here or anywhere else in the world.    There is no greater connection
between breeder technology and a nuclear weapons program than there is with
an ordinary nuclear power plant.   But, in any case, a nuclear-armed Japan
(or India, or Taiwan for that matter) is demonstrably *VERY MUCH* in OUR
BEST INTEREST, for the aforementioned reasons relating to Red China.

We Should Be So Lucky that Japan is developing a weapons program.   They
aren't.   They are far more pragmatic than that and will rely on US
deterrance where China is concerned (probably at their peril), but to
denegrate breeder technology which is so obviously in the best interest of
mankind is unbelievably stupid.

No nuclear facility should be allowed to operate which does not incorporate
breeder technology, at least until a practical, working Cold Fusion reactor
is demonstrated.   We Need The Power.    More people die each *day* as a
result of inadequate energy supplies (through starvation, bad water, etc.)
than have ever died from radiation poisoning.

Jed, what's holding up CF, anyway???

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  5 14:33:42 1999
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Subject: Re: This just came in
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Mitchell writes:

> Because uranium is a vastly more concentrated energy source than are
> chemically based fuels, vastly less of it must be extracted, transported,
> refined, and burned, in order to produce a given amount of energy. That
> means far fewer people are exposed to accidents, when the energy source is
> nuclear, than when it is not. Result: nuclear reactors have, by far, the
> lowest cost in terms of deaths and injuries per unit of energy produced.
> [For details, see *The Health Hazards of Not Going Nuclear*, by Dr. Petr
> Beckmann.]

People these days must be packing some piss poor narcotics between their
ears to be able to come up with the sort of stuff like Beckmann has. It's
all the fault of the AMA, I guess. We recently had a similar example here,
where our prozac-laden highways "engineers" explained to us that by placing
impediments to traffic like bumps, narrower roads, fewer lanes - and we're
talking about the freeway here folks, etc., traffic would actually flow at a
net *faster* rate, with of course fewer serious accidents along the way.

Knuke has it right, and this species has merely been extraordinarily lucky -
so far. Except for a few small towns here and there, we've only lost two
major cities, and that was on purpose. Sheesh.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 17:33:46 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Monju breeder reactor
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dwenbert writes:

	The simple fact is that until and unless the Cold Fusion Elite
	can get off their grids and make something useful, fission
	Breeder Reactors are mankind's best hope of avoiding Greenhouse
	Death, period.

I do not think there is a cold fusion elite. Some people put on airs,
pretend to be elite, and sit on their . . . uh, grids, but they are fakers.
They claim they have secret cold fusion devices but actually they have
nothing. People who make real contributions are not sitting. They are
trying very hard to make something useful.

I do not see why plutonium breeder reactors are better than uranium reactors.


	The Breeder Reactor is a wonderful thing, which not only
	eliminates all of the nasty waste of fission technology, but
	also delivers unlimited fuel.

Uranium is so abundant it is effectively unlimited. Surely we will not need
it for more than 200 years or so. Something better will come along by then.
The nasty waste should be put aside in a safe place, where we can get to
it. Probably in a generation or two people will find a good use for it.
Today's garbage is tomorrow's gold -- that has been the pattern of history.


	There is no greater connection between breeder technology and a
	nuclear weapons program than there is with an ordinary nuclear
	power plant.

Breeder reactors produce plutonium which is "much easier" to make nuclear
weapons with, according to the New York Times article. It is also much more
toxic.


	Jed, what's holding up CF, anyway???

In a word: money. Actually, nothing is holding it up. Talk to people who
like Storms and Mizuno and you'll be amazed at how rapid progress is,
considering how little they have to work with. They make more real progress
by themselves than two-thousands people working on hot fusion.
Unfortunately, the problems they face may not be solvable in one
man-lifetime. If thousands of skilled people were working on the problem,
progress would be immeasurably swifter. (Skilled people, not grid-sitters.)
The problems do not call for fundamental breakthroughs in physics or acts
of genius. They are far simpler than the challenges facing the hot fusion
program, or the breeder reactor for that matter. For the most part, these
are ordinary material problems, the sort of thing a chemical company would
deal with in a project to improve the quality of house paint. The people
who develop incandescent lights probably know how to solve Mizuno's
difficulties with disintegrating glow discharge electrolysis cathodes. If
they cannot help, maybe the people who make jet engine fan blades can.

Some people say there is no theory to explain CF, which will be a serious
stumbling block. Others, like Mizuno, say this is not such a problem. I
think Mizuno and other electrochemists are used to dealing with murky
chemistry and material science difficulties, without deep theoretical
understanding. I wonder if the theories for things like fission are as good
as they are cracked up to be.

I have seen many successful CF experiments, in person and in the
literature. I expect that if the political problems could be solved, the
technical difficulties would be quickly overcome. Of course we cannot be
sure, but people like Fleischmann, Mizuno and Ohmori say they do not think
the problems are particularly onerous. They have had a lot of experience
developing practical, industrial applications. To put it in perspective,
IBM, Burroughs and others each spent more than $100 million developing the
thin film disk drive head in the 1970s. My guess is that the challenges
they faced were larger and more expensive to overcome than anything facing
CF. With that kind of money in CF most of the technical problems would
evaporate overnight.

(The thin film disk drive head lasted only 10 years before being supplanted
by magneto-resistive heads, but it was still worth the half-billion dollars.)

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  5 14:56:36 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: This just came in
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

	People these days must be packing some piss poor narcotics between
	their ears to be able to come up with the sort of stuff like Beckmann
	has.

He's dead, isn't he? It goes to show what happens to you.


	We recently had a similar example here, where our prozac-laden
	highways "engineers" explained to us that by placing impediments to
	traffic like bumps, narrower roads, fewer lanes . . . traffic would
actually flow at a net *faster* rate, with of course fewer serious
	accidents along the way.

Well, if they can reduce the accident rate here, I think it would improve
the average traffic speed in Atlanta. The rate varies tremendously from day
to day, dependent mainly on accidents as far as I can tell. There are
particular spots in the highway where people speed and cause man accidents.
Bumps that warn the drivers that tricky merge lanes are ahead, or make them
drop their cell phones and pay attention might help. Lots more speeding
tickets automatically issued by computerized cameras would do wonders. In
nearby cities they have cut accident rates by two-thirds. If everyone would
drive 55 instead of sometimes 30 mph (because of accidents) and 80 mph
(because they can), we would all get to work on time.

Sometimes counter-intuitive measures work.

Fortunately for me, I commute only two miles over surface roads, but the
traffic in Atlanta is rated second worst in the nation, after LA, I think.

- Jed

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Jed -

> There are
> particular spots in the highway where people speed and cause man accidents.

We have lots of woman-caused accidents over here (must be all those skimpy
bikinis), and I *am* sorry I couldn't resist.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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[have taken the liberty to change the thread to match
    the content]


At 05:33 PM 10/5/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>	Jed, what's holding up CF, anyway???
>
>In a word: money. Actually, nothing is holding it up. Talk to people who
>like Storms and Mizuno and you'll be amazed at how rapid progress is,
>considering how little they have to work with. They make more real progress
>by themselves than two-thousands people working on hot fusion.
>Unfortunately, the problems they face may not be solvable in one
>man-lifetime. If thousands of skilled people were working on the problem,
>progress would be immeasurably swifter. (Skilled people, not grid-sitters.)
>The problems do not call for fundamental breakthroughs in physics or acts
>of genius. They are far simpler than the challenges facing the hot fusion
>program, or the breeder reactor for that matter. For the most part, these
>are ordinary material problems, the sort of thing a chemical company would
>deal with in a project to improve the quality of house paint. The people
>who develop incandescent lights probably know how to solve Mizuno's
>difficulties with disintegrating glow discharge electrolysis cathodes. If
>they cannot help, maybe the people who make jet engine fan blades can.

  As regards CF:
   The answer is materials, money, manufacturing, 
and avoid Murphy [and his "law"]. 


 ========================================================

>Some people say there is no theory to explain CF, which will be a serious
>stumbling block. Others, like Mizuno, say this is not such a problem. I
>think Mizuno and other electrochemists are used to dealing with murky
>chemistry and material science difficulties, without deep theoretical
>understanding. I wonder if the theories for things like fission are as good
>as they are cracked up to be.

  The hot fusion theories, and physics theories have
been very successful.

  As regards CF:
  The theories are many, and more importantly of
several types.  Coulomb barrier surmounting
theories have shown this is no longer a serious theoretical
problem.

   Loading theories (e.g. the Q1D model) demonstrate how
and why the electric field intensity RULES.

   The Optimal Operating Point theory demonstrates where
to drive the systems in the complex phase space of input
electrical power.

   The Phuson theory explains the loading problem and
the coupling to the phonons.  Peter Hagelstein is doing
a great job expanding knowledge of this - which may now be
the most critical for understanding (check for my paper
in the upcoming Fusion Technology Jan 2000).

   Material breakdown is handled by a different group of 
theories including the Catastrophic active medium theories
which handle the deteriorating lattice.

   Now breakeven and energy coupling .....


 ========================================================



>I have seen many successful CF experiments, in person and in the
>literature. I expect that if the political problems could be solved, the
>technical difficulties would be quickly overcome. Of course we cannot be
>sure, but people like Fleischmann, Mizuno and Ohmori say they do not think
>the problems are particularly onerous. They have had a lot of experience
>developing practical, industrial applications. To put it in perspective,
>IBM, Burroughs and others each spent more than $100 million developing the
>thin film disk drive head in the 1970s. My guess is that the challenges
>they faced were larger and more expensive to overcome than anything facing
>CF. With that kind of money in CF most of the technical problems would
>evaporate overnight.
>
>(The thin film disk drive head lasted only 10 years before being supplanted
>by magneto-resistive heads, but it was still worth the half-billion dollars.)
>
>- Jed

    Good point and perspective, although it underplays
the material problem, and methinks new engineering problems
will continue along the way.  ;-)X

     Mitchell Swartz

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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Re; David's "Whirlpower" Theory & The Casimir Force Connection?
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 17:13:34 PDT
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Frederick writes,

>Aside from "Whirlpower" being a trademark for a powertool, gravity aside,
>the Casimer Force, F = k/d^4 might sustain a water (high-dielectric)
>cavity in a rotating "drum", as is suggested for Waterspouts and Hurricanes
>that lose their oomph over land as they lose water.
>
>  http://i-cafe.net/~dhubcal/whirlpower/ovrvw2.html

Hi Fredrick and all,

Thanks for your observation!  I see has been some whirling going on since I 
last checked.  :)

This is however not an accurate description of Whirlpower.  Whirlpowerr 
needs a very wide tank so that the full efect of the compound vortex and 
come into play.  This is what is said to be unique about Whirlpower and is 
THE Whirlpower Difference.

Schauberger and many others have tried building the simple vortex, tornado 
type, like could be built in a 55 gallon drum and although it looks very 
prossiblev y all have failed.  That is where Whirlpower came along.  
Whirlpower about the whirlpool not the vortex itself.
>
>Centrifugal Cavitaion in a Rotating Drum:
>
>Force Cent. (Gs) = 14.2E-6*D*N^2 = 0.75(V^2/D)
>
>D (dia inches)
>V (peripheral velocity feet/sec)
>N (revs/minute)
>
>Drum Dia (in)       RPM                Gs                   Feet/sec
>
>     24                   2,400             2,000                   250
>     24                   1,400              670                     150
>
>With 2 inch thick Lucite (plexiglass) end caps and the shell from a 55
>gallon drum,
>filled 3/4 full with water, and spun up to some rpms comparable to
>a catagory 4 Hurricane, ~300 FPS,  The Casimir effect might let it spin on
>it's own
>and turn a generator shaft.
>
>No Smileys, I'm Serious.
>
>Regards,      Frederick
><< ThePearlofWisdom_WhirlpowerTheorybyDavidDennard.url >>

I appreciate your seriousness but what needs to be built and tested is a 
whirlpool not another simple vortex.  As far as can tell the Casimir Effect 
is a thermodynamic paradigm based science that probably mis- places the 
effect of gravity.  Almost like how science does not seem to recognize the 
buoyancy force is really the force of gravity pulling the more dense beneath 
the less dense.  I see my posts on this have not met any real dispute.  It 
is just common sense as it is just common sense that gravity repels light.

David Dennard
http://www.whirlpower.cc

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Fredrick writes:

>I posted this question the other day, before David came in
>feet first with Whirlpower.  :-)

I came slidding in here with Whirlpower a year ago.  This list confirmed 
that a whirlpool has never been built and tested by science.

Don't any of you find that even the least bit strange???


>
>Hydrogen Balloons & Payload:
>
>Balloon weight;   1.0-1.4 kg
>Lift Force            1.0-1.5 Kg
>H2 Used              120 Ft^3
>Init Dia                 6.5 Ft
>Dia 90,000-100,000  ~= 25 ft
>Ascent rate;    1,000 +100 -50 Ft/minute
>
>Attained potential energy (mgh) ~ 4.0E5 nt-meters or joules
>
>Payloads of ~ a tonne (2200 lbs) have been carried to 100,000 ft,
>that's 2.2E8 ft-lbs or ~2.83E5 btu (~3.0E8 joules)
>
>Is that work all gravity-buoyancy or is it assisted by the gravity-opposing
>Casimir Force?

Great question!  If the Casimir force were written up in a gravity based 
science paradigm it seems to me they would be about same thing.

David

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  5 17:53:43 1999
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John writes:

>	I still struggle with terminology, a gift I am grateful for from
>the late Herman Schnurer, Professor of Language.
>
>	When there is an output of energy, or motion or action and the
>reason is unknown or unseen, at first, what is it called?
>
>	Free Energy?
>	UNEXPECTED ENERGY?

If the vortex in a whirlpool makes energy as I propose it would be 
gravitational energy.  It is called Whirlpower.

>	Where does it come from? What causes it?

It comes from gravity causing the vortex to wobble, and if done properly 
that action can be tapped.  If done unproperly the effect is snuffed out, 
much like snuffing out a flame.  In fact, the vortex is a flame of water, 
the "Fire of the Kundalini", and much like our ancestors had to learn how 
build and sustain a fire without letting it go out, we must learn how to 
build and sustain a vortex without letting it go out.
>
>
>	Make a count and see if there is, at ANY time, a bias  in any
>reporting, thinking, writing....

That ought to be a good one, be sure to count ignorance too.  If those that 
could make a difference did not ignore me we would have already had a new 
source of clean energy if my theory is correct.
>
>	Let us make a list of what is reported in our writings and so on,
>especially if it happens more than a few times..
>
>	The Unexpected or Unknown Energy or Energy source, mechanism and
>so on is:     =please add to this list==
>
>	Free
>	ZPE
>	Vacuum
>	Magnetic
>	Gyroscopic
>	Thermal
>	Other
>   Whirlpower, The Gravity Paradigm

David Dennard
"still, the hardest working man in dreamland"
http://www.whirlpower.cc


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  5 18:06:27 1999
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----- Original Message -----
From: David Dennard <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: Re; David's "Whirlpower" Theory & The Casimir Force Connection?

David wrote:
>
>
>Whirlpowerr
> needs a very wide tank so that the full efect of the compound vortex and
> come into play.  This is what is said to be unique about Whirlpower and is
> THE Whirlpower Difference.

The theorized Casimir Force, F = k*Area/d^4  doesn't preclude the
possibility
that a natural vortex requires a larger diameter to extract energy from the
interaction
between the gravitational field and Vacuum Fluctuations/Waves.

You can't do much surfing or extracting wave energy from the ocean without
the interplay of gravity and water oscillations/waves. :-)

You can buy livestock tanks 10 feet in diameter or larger at farm-ranch
supply stores,
or if you need larger-deeper ones, tank fabricating entities can fabricate
the for you.
>
> Schauberger and many others have tried building the simple vortex, tornado
> type, like could be built in a 55 gallon drum and although it looks very
> prossible all have failed.  That is where Whirlpower came along.
> Whirlpower about the whirlpool not the vortex itself.

A whirpool automatically creates a vortex.
>
>As far as can tell the Casimir Effect
> is a thermodynamic paradigm based science that probably mis- places the
> effect of gravity.

Not so. A tornado, waterspout or hurricane is a synergistic interaction
of thermal, gravitational-buoyancy, and most likely ZP Waves.

>Almost like how science does not seem to recognize the
> buoyancy force is really the force of gravity pulling the more dense
beneath
> the less dense.

Hydropower comes about synergistically by solar evaporation of water,
gravity-buoyancy of
water vapor rising thousands of feet, upper atmosphere
condensation/precipitation
and gravity powered potential energy.

You could run a cable-tethered hydrogen balloon with a water payload up the
side
of  Mt. Everest, absorb or compress the hydrogen for reuse and although
rather impractical, extract enoumous amounts of hydropower when the water
flowed down a penstock tube.  :-)

I jokingly suggested something similar using a freon liquid and vapor piping
system,
to an engineer that works for a large air conditioning company, in the early
70s,
and he threw in with a University Professor, and patented it. :-)

>
>I see my posts on this have not met any real dispute.  It
> is just common sense as it is just common sense that gravity repels light.

Wrong, gravity changes the permittivity of space and alters the velocity
of light,   v =  (1/k*eo*uo)^1/2, which makes a bit of astronomical
confusion between
gravity red shift and doppler red shift.

Regards,  Frederick
>
> David Dennard
> http://www.whirlpower.cc
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  5 18:19:12 1999
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Jed,

It is actually an honor to be conducting a dialogue with you; I happen to
have great respect for you and Gene Mallove, etc.    My comments about the
'cold fusion elite' were somewhat in jest.    I know Martin Fleishmann; we
brought him to Orlando for some strategic meetings in 1990.    It amazes me
that there isn't a better handle on CF by now.

The lack of a consistent, comprehensive theory doesn't bother me.    It was
SEVEN YEARS after the first commercial transmission of electric power, from
Niagra Falls to Buffalo, New York, that the English physicist James Thompson
discovered the electron.    So, it is not necessary to know WHAT cold fusion
is, as long as we can interpret the dynamics of HOW it functions.

As to the issue of nuclear waste, however:

The technology to reutilize nuclear wastes to reclaim energy has been around
for a long time.  It involves the use of Chlorine to absorb radiation,
pumping it to higher and higher metastable states and then photoionizing it.
As it absorbs such energy, its reactivity with hydrogen increases
exponentially, becoming the most powerful chemical reaction known.
Chlorine is a *FAR* better oxidizer than oxygen.

The real payoff is probably to be found in high voltage arc dischage
electrolysis of a D20 soluition of Potassium Chloride, using Mill's
hydrocatalysis reactions of KOH to release EUV which is picked up by the
Chlorine.    There is strong reason to suspect that oppositely ionized
DCl/DCl collisions in a combusting plasma front will catalyze D+D fusion;
the Chlorine nucleii are far more massive than Muons.....

Kistiakowski proposed a photocatalyzed DCl reaction as an atom bomb trigger
at one point.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  5 20:05:16 1999
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Subject: Whirlpower Theory & The Casimir Force Connection
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Fredrick writes:

>The theorized Casimir Force, F = k*Area/d^4  doesn't preclude the
>possibility
>that a natural vortex requires a larger diameter to extract energy from the
>interaction
>between the gravitational field and Vacuum Fluctuations/Waves.

Doesn't preclude nor address from what I can gather.  But my understanding 
of the physics speak is limited.  Maybe those who know can addess this.  And 
in my theory the energy not coming from the "Vacuum Fluctuation/Waves" but 
from the way gravity affects the vortex and makes it wobble, it total, like 
a top.  All previous work  addresses the "chaotic sense" of the vortex as 
Curt Hallberg  puts it.  Whirlpower is unique!

And by the way, for those interested in Cold Fusion, Curt Hallberg at 
<http://www.newphys.se>, says he will be comparing Whirlpower to Cold Fusion 
in his upcoming on-line bench test.  And predicts "Battleship Whirlpower" 
will blow Cold Fusion right out the water.
>
>You can't do much surfing or extracting wave energy from the ocean without
>the interplay of gravity and water oscillations/waves. :-)

And it has to be done exactly the "right way" or the surfer wipes out.

>You can buy livestock tanks 10 feet in diameter or larger at farm-ranch
>supply stores,
>or if you need larger-deeper ones, tank fabricating entities can fabricate
>the for you.

If I had any money at all I would have built Whirlpower a long time ago.  
Being disabled and very poor has led me to have to beg for help.  Not all of 
us disabled folks get pampered with help from the world. For most of us it 
is a struggle just to stay alive.

> >
> > Schauberger and many others have tried building the simple vortex, 
>tornado
> > type, like could be built in a 55 gallon drum and although it looks very
> > prossible all have failed.  That is where Whirlpower came along.
> > Whirlpower about the whirlpool not the vortex itself.
>
>A whirpool automatically creates a vortex.

Pointless point.  There are many kinds of vortices.

> >
> >As far as can tell the Casimir Effect
> > is a thermodynamic paradigm based science that probably mis- places the
> > effect of gravity.
>
>Not so. A tornado, waterspout or hurricane is a synergistic interaction
>of thermal, gravitational-buoyancy, and most likely ZP Waves.

I agree.  Science does not seem to take this point of view.  Science still 
seems to think heat causes evaporation when the real truth is that heat 
causes steam, gravity causes evaporation.

> >I see my posts on this have not met any real dispute.  It
> > is just common sense as it is just common sense that gravity repels 
>light.
>
>Wrong, gravity changes the permittivity of space and alters the velocity
>of light,   v =  (1/k*eo*uo)^1/2, which makes a bit of astronomical
>confusion between
>gravity red shift and doppler red shift.

I greatly disagree.  Einstein said, "his theory hinged on the exact 
measurement of 1.75", in the gravity telescope but that measurement has 
never been reached exactly.  In my post "The Curve" it is quite apparent 
that a measurement of refraction would not cause condensed light in the 
first place and the measurement has never come up to prediction because the 
refraction measured is coming from the slipstream effect of gravity's 
repulsion of light not attraction of light.  Plus the candle flame 
experiment on  the shuttle shows a round candle flame in the lack of 
gravity, not light being pushed away as it does on Earth.  Proof positive in 
my book.  How funny it is going to be when school children are shown to 
understand light before the scientists do.  :)

David Dennard
The Phoenix
"he found the fizz in the physics"
http://www.whirlpower.cc

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  5 20:31:08 1999
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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 20:27:28 -0700
From: Lynn Kurtz <kurtz imap2.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Whirlpower Theory & The Casimir Force Connection
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At 08:01 PM 10/5/99 -0700, you wrote:

>
>I agree.  Science does not seem to take this point of view.  Science still 
>seems to think heat causes evaporation when the real truth is that heat 
>causes steam, gravity causes evaporation.
>

This is the second time I have read your comments to the effect that
gravity repels water vapor. I do not believe that is true and I asked you
how you explain why clouds aren't repelled into space and how you explain
low lying fog. You have not replied to those comments. How does your theory
account for this?

--Lynn

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  5 20:45:57 1999
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Sept 5, 1999

Vortex,

To get the lay of the land, I drove to the Ontario Convention Center (a
day ahead) to see where the three day convention was being held. I
wanted to see what would be involved in going there and setting up the
video. No problems anticipated.

The organizers of the Convention was starting to set up the exhibition
space, registration-reception desk, and the Final Program published
pamphlets of the meeting. I obtained copy to check on the speculated
additional presentations in regard to cold fusion.

For Wednesday afternoon, Convention Center Room 200A
Physical Chemistry
Novel Hydrogen Chemistry (Sponsored by Black Light Power, Inc.)
R. L.. Mills, Organizer, Presiding

1:30-359 Observation of Extreme Ultraviolet Hydrogen Emission From
Incandescently Heated Hydrogen Gas With Certain Catalysts. R. L.. Mills
and Y. Lu
2:00-360. Novel Inorganic Hydride. R. L.. Mills
2:30-361. Synthesis and Characterization of Potassium Iodo Hydride. R.
L.. Mills
3:00-362. Novel Hydride Compounds. B. Dhanadapani and J  He

For  Friday Morning
Convention Center, Room 200C
Electrochemistry/Anomalous Effects I
M. H.. Miles, Organizer, Presiding

8:30-249 Cold Fusion: Past, Present, and Future. M. Fleischmann
9:20-250 The Present Status of Chemically Assisted Nuclear Reactions. E.
K.. Storms
9:50-251 Anomalous Heat Production from Hydrogen Saturated Palladium. M.
McKubre, F. Tanzella and P. Tripoldi
10:20-Break
10:30-252 Thermal and Nuclear Events in a Polarized Pd+D System. And
Overview of the Co-Deposition Technique. S. Szpak and Mosier-Boss
11:00-253 Electrolysis of Heavy Water with Titanium Cathodes: Heat
Produced and Chemical Analysis of the Cathodes. J. Dash and J. Wanrer.
11:30-254 Theoretical Considerations for 'Cold Fusion' Based upon
Co-Production of Heat and Tritium. R. T. Bush and M. R. McGovern

Friday Afternoon
Convention Center, Room 200C
Electrochemistry/Anomalous Effects II
M. H. Miles, Organizer, Presiding

1:30-255 Calorimeter Studies of Pd/D2O+LiOD/Pt Electrolysis Cells. M.
H.. Miles
2:00-357 Energy Production in Arata and Zhang Study and It's Theoretical
Basis. T. A. Chubb and S. R. Chubb.
2:30-358 Observations of Anolmalous 3He and 4He in Metals Using High
Resolution High Sensitivity Mass Spectroscopy. R. George
3:00-395 Excess Heat and Commensurate Nuclear Products Associated with
Cold Fusion: D+D ->
4He + 23.82 MeV is found Quantitatively and Reproducibly. B. Bush

That's It.

-AK-

ps: SAP, the other co-sponer is the Society for Applied Spectroscopy
(Souther California Section)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  5 20:47:37 1999
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   At 09:12 PM 10/5/99 -0400, dwenbert wrote:
It amazes me that there isn't a better handle on CF by now.

  It takes complicated math and engineering understanding,
and materials.  Sometimes not all are available at the same
time.   Or did you mean something else?

      ===============================================

>The lack of a consistent, comprehensive theory doesn't bother me. 

 It really is there but requires the math.  In fact there
may be more than one, and time and expts will sort it out.
People should be studying integral equations but usually stop
somewhere between differential equations and advanced
calculus (e.g. Hildebrand).  There are fewer folks who know
what a Bessel function is of any type, or how to use a Maxwell
stress tensor unfortunately.  
  

      ===============================================



>As to the issue of nuclear waste, however:
>
>The technology to reutilize nuclear wastes to reclaim energy has been around
>for a long time.  It involves the use of Chlorine to absorb radiation,
>pumping it to higher and higher metastable states and then photoionizing it.
>As it absorbs such energy, its reactivity with hydrogen increases
>exponentially, becoming the most powerful chemical reaction known.
>Chlorine is a *FAR* better oxidizer than oxygen.

  For nuclear this is reasonable, but for biologic, oxygen RULES.
Chlorine produces PCBs [polycholinated biphenyls] out of ordinary
amino acids.  They are mutagenic and are not there before, or if,
oxygen is used - as can be shown by both NMR and GChrom.
Again, note that this is a different system if you
are talking nuclear systems for remediation.  
It is difficult to tell from the post.


      ===============================================



>There is strong reason to suspect that oppositely ionized
>DCl/DCl collisions in a combusting plasma front will catalyze D+D fusion;
>the Chlorine nucleii are far more massive than Muons.....


   You must be doing great research. 
Are there refs?

  
    Mitchell Swartz

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  5 20:58:52 1999
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Subject: Cold Fusion is Needed - Read the News
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  Cold fusion began the day of the Exxon Valdez crash.

  This week has not been good for the energy industry.
  First Japan, now this:

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/19991005/ts/nuclear_korea_2.html
Tuesday October 5 9:22 AM ET 
Twenty-Two Reported Hurt In S.Korea Nuclear Accident

  Isn't it time to give cold fusion, and other
alternate energy technologies, a chance?

     Mitchell Swartz

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  5 21:57:22 1999
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Lynn writes:

>This is the second time I have read your comments to the effect that
>gravity repels water vapor. I do not believe that is true and I asked you
>how you explain why clouds aren't repelled into space and how you explain
>low lying fog. You have not replied to those comments. How does your theory
>account for this?

Hi Lynn,

I replied in the first "Bubbles" post where I said I was going try and pull 
all this together.  Maybe wishes are like fishes.  :)

Anywho, it is all about relative density.  If a something is less dense than 
the surrounding area gravity pulls the more dense beneath it and repels it.  
I replied to your question saying the density is eventually balanced thus 
the excited H20 molecule reaches buoyancy threshold and does not continue 
into space.  In fog it shows heat causes steam but it takes gravity to 
evaporate.  When the density threshold is already met the vapor goes nowhere 
but into the bank of fog.  What is really new and very important to 
understand that space has density too, unlike what Einstein thought.  And 
that space is more dense than a photon.  Now, how can such light things be 
measured, that is the question.  As shown in "The Curve" we have 
measurements of light that don't match up to Einstein's predictions.  He 
stated very clearly they had to match exactly.  In my theory I propose and 
up and down light test of intensity.  This "Dennard's Interferometer" should 
easily show the light pointing up will more intense than light pointing 
down.

David

______________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  5 22:05:40 1999
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 22:04:26 PDT
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For those may have missed "The Curve".

This is what it is all about and is the leading edge on the Gravity Paradigm 
and fits inside Bachall's and Perlmutter's "Cosmic Triangle".

I hope the format works out.

>>In relation to the discussion of curved space, a new report just came our
>>saying
>>they now have data showing space is flat, not curved.  They are calling it
>>"The
>>Cosmic Triangle" and was just recetly published by independent researchers
>>from
>>both Princeton and Berkeley.  I will send a copy in a minute.  Not being a
>>"real" scientist I find it quite facinating since my theory also predicts
>>an
>>infinite flat space where light is not an absolute speed.  My theory also
>>predicted frame dragging, and the unaccounted for energy of motion in Vera
>>Rubin's study on spiral galaxies.  If I were a "real" scientists I would
>>have
>>had all this published long ago but being just a poor layman with a dream
>>it has
>>been very difficult to get people to help or be interested.
>>
>>Here is a little piece about the gravity telescope and Einsteins take on
>>it.
>>This is very timely as we just had the eclipse and I hear lots of
>>scientists
>>were going after this measurement again.  They just can't figure it.  On
>>the TV
>>News the were several several Stars at least in the gravity telescope from
>>what
>>I coulld tell. One really big one on the right hand side coming out of the
>>eclipse.  They all should have gotten a good measurement on that one!  If 
>>I
>>am
>>right it is really amazing that none of them actually know what they are
>>looking
>>at.
>>
>>The Curve
>>
>>by David Dennard
>>
>>
>>Einstein thought that space was not just a vacuum but a virtual void.  And
>>that
>>there was space curved time that acted like inertia with no resistance.
>>But
>>more and more evidence points to the fluid type gravity model.  One big
>>clue was
>>the way Einstein saw gravity and light.  Thinking gravity attracted light
>>he
>>made a new theory to try and explain the motion of the Universe.  Not 
>>being
>>able
>>to mate the electromagnetic and the gravitational model together has been
>>the
>>question of physics for a long time.
>>
>>I've been reading a great book about Einstein.  I see exactly where the
>>problem
>>is and just like I thought it is about science not understanding "The 
>>Pearl
>>of
>>Wisdom".  Not understanding gravity repels light is the root of the 
>>problem
>>in
>>physics, IMO, and this most basic fundamental misunderstanding is what is
>>holding us as a civilization down.  Like Kaku says, we are a primative 0
>>civilization.
>>
>>Bachall's and Perlmutter's Cosmic Triangle the gravity constant and the
>>gravity
>>telescope all play a part in the misunderstading.  Eistein said everything
>>hinged on his concept that gravity was pulling light in, causing the
>>condensed
>>light at the edge of the Sun from Stars in the background.  My concept is
>>that
>>gravity is pushing out the light causing the condensed light, and that
>>gravity
>>causes the speed of light.
>>
>>If I am right and Eistsein was wrong about this, it means I found "The
>>Curve"!
>>
>>      A                  B
>>
>>llllllllllll      llllllllllll
>>llllllllllll      llllllllllll      (light is traveling top to bottom)
>>llllllllllll      llllllllllll
>>(((((O))))))      ))))))O(((((
>>llllllllllll      llllllllllll
>>llllllllllll      llllllllllll
>>llllllllllll      llllllllllll
>>
>>In fig. A this is a representation of how I see gravity repeling light as
>>it
>>goes around the Sun.  Fig. B is a view of how Einstein saw light being
>>pulled in
>>by the Sun.
>>
>>His inaccurate concept here is where the space curve error comes from and
>>shows
>>why Einstein thought there was space curved time.  He didn't see the curve
>>in
>>the light going around the Sun.  He saw it as a refraction.  Now right off
>>the
>>bat it looks to me as if refraction will not cause a condensed light but a
>>spectrum or rainbow light.  I don't see how the attraction idea could
>>condense
>>light to start off with.  I think his test of this measured the rebound of
>>the
>>light after the repuslsion of gravity, not the direct effect of gravity.
>>It is
>>really more of a slipstream effect.  Same thing happens with cosmic rays
>>and the
>>meager gravity of the Earth.
>>
>>Einstein said his entire theory rested on this measurement.  They thought
>>they
>>measured condensed light by gravitational attraction, but what they really
>>measured was condensed light rebounding after condensed by the repulsion 
>>of
>>gravity.
>>
>>Einstein's calculations were that this measurement of refraction would be
>>1.75
>>seconds of an arc, but the measurement comes out to 1.64.  Close but no
>>cigar.
>>
>>Once we reach an understanding of the speed of light we can really "see"
>>how the
>>force of gravity works.
>>
>>Not understanding evaporation and the speed of sight are caused by gravity
>>are
>>such basic fundamental misconceptions it blinds us to the rest of the
>>motions
>>gravity is causing, including Whirlpower.  Einstein was blinded by the
>>light and
>>thrown for a loop.
>>
>>If we can get some real data a whirlpool can generate electicity and 
>>people
>>understand this most simple concept, people can start to build their own
>>Whirlpower Machines.  And that is just the begining.  This concept also 
>>has
>>a
>>propulsion capacity, i.e. the UFO.  Schauberger already got some work done
>>on
>>and Hallberg <www.newphys.se> and I have a few ideas in mind on too! :)
>>
>>
>>David Dennard
>>http://www.whirlpower.cc


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 05:03:02 1999
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: Richard Milton <richard.milton virgin.net>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Ablaze!  author?
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On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Richard Milton wrote:

> I rather urgently need to get in email contact with Larry Arnold
> of ParaScience International, author of Ablaze! on
> spontaneous human combustion.
> 
> Do you happen to have an email address that will reach him?

Nope, but perhaps someone on VORTEX-L might know?

Note to vortex-L : Richard Milton is not on vortex, so please contact him
privately if you have Larry Arnold's address


Note to Richard:  FYI, vortex-L webpage is:

  http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/  (read current messages)
  http://www.amasci.com/weird/wvort.html  (main page, subscribe info)


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 08:43:43 1999
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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:37:27 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Monju breeder reactor
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>***{Another Olympian pronouncement, based on nothing. How would you know
>>whether there is a clandestine purpose?
>
>Because, as I pointed out earlier, if there was a clandestine purpose, it
>would inevitably leak, and the government would be thrown out of office.

***{Amazing. One unsupported Olympian pronouncement, when challenged, is
then buttressed by another unsupported Olympian pronouncement! The mind
reels with wonderment at the thought of what the next reply would be, if
the second statement were to be questioned! Well, I'll not waste my time
asking Jed how he knows that any clandestine purpose would inevitably leak,
because it is obvious to anyone with more than a room-temperature IQ that
he doesn't know that at all. Governments manage, on a routine basis, to
keep secrets all over the world, and the secrets kept in many cases concern
matters which, if widely known by the general public, would cause the
affected governments to fall. Despite that, such secrets are frequently
kept for decades, or even centuries, before coming to light. Here are some
examples:

(1) The British Secret Service killed Napolen Bonaparte by adding small
doses of arsenic to his food, while he was a prisoner on Elba, and the
secret was kept for more than 150 years, until a lock of his hair was
analyzed in the latter half of this century and found to contain immense
quantities of arsenic. Later, when his remains were examined, the arsenic
poisoning hypothesis was confirmed. Had that information come to light when
the perpetrators were still in office, the government most certainly would
have fallen, but neither event, in fact, happened.

(2) Similar top secret skulduggery remained unleaked vis-a-vis the alleged
Spanish sinking of the U.S. battleship Maine, which was the pretext for
U.S. entry into the Spanish-American War. ("Remember the Maine!" was the
slogan that Roosevelt's rough riders shouted at the Battle of San Juan
Hill.) It was three quarters of a century later, after the guilty parties
were long dead, that the remains of the Maine were examined by divers, and
it was revealed that the plates in the hull of the vessel were bent
outward, indicating an explosion originating from inside the ship, rather
than inwards, as would have been the case if the Spanish had been the
guilty parties. The likely culprits: individuals within the American
government who wanted to justify war with Spain.

(3) The sinking of the Lusitania, allegedly by the Germans, was the major
factor propelling the U.S. into World War I on the side of the Allied
Powers. However, when the remains of the Lusitania were finally examined,
many decades later, the results were the same as for the Maine: the hull
was breached from the inside out, rather than from the outside in, once
again suggesting that the sinking was staged by parties who wanted to bring
the U.S. into the war, rather than caused by a German attack.

(4) And, of course, there is the obvious example: the Holocaust was kept
secret not merely from the German people, but also from people in the
Allied nations, until the end of the war, when the conscience of the world
was shocked by the newsreel footage that began flowing out of the captured
Nazi concentration camps.

Given the above examples, and thousands of others, illustrating the ease
with which government perfidy can be kept out of the mainstream press, the
fact that secrets can be kept is not really an issue in most peoples'
minds. As to *how* they are kept, despite the moral outrage which must be
felt by some of the individuals within the government who have access to
such information, the answer is obvious: would-be whistleblowers in the
intelligence community are deterred from speaking out by the very large
penalties for disclosure of classified information. They know that
reporters will seldom print such information unless supplied with ironclad
proof of its authenticity, and they know that once a reporter has been
convinced, the approval of an editor, and, for a big story, the owner of
the newspaper, will then be required. Thus too many people must be brought
into the loop, resulting in a large risk of exposure. Result: in most cases
the fear factor kicks in, and the morally outraged individual reluctantly
decides to remain silent.

What happens when such an individual overcomes his fears and comes forward
anyway? Simple: the editors and owners of the mainstream media outlet make
"discreet inquiries" to their friends and associates in the government, who
make it clear in no uncertain terms that the source is probably either (a)
a disgruntled former employee with fake documents, or (b) a nut who,
despite his claims, never worked for an intelligence agency. Result: the
reporter is sent back to his source with a demand for corroboration, in the
form of a *second* witness, or *more* documents, etc. That contact,
naturally, is monitored by intelligence agents, who identify the source,
take him to a room, sit him under the bright lights, and use a rubber hose
to explain his "rights" to him. Shortly thereafter he backs away from his
claims, the relieved reporter drops the story, and the secrecy is preserved
despite the "leak."

That's the way the game is played in the real world, Jed's wishful thinking
to the contrary notwithstanding.

--Mitchell Jones}***

A
>"secret" nuclear bomb program in Japan is about as plausible as a secret
>U.S. - U.N. fleet of black helicopters and P.O.W. camps. Only a paranoid
>right-wing nut would believe such fantasies.

***{Only a selective thinker who is determined to believe what he wants to
believe would dismiss such allegations out of hand. Truth seekers, on the
other hand, will judge such claims based on the evidence. --Mitchell
Jones}***

>
>>***{Amazing. I have pointed out to you repeatedly that the Japanese face a
>>nuclear armed, expansionistic foe (Red China) . . .
>
>China is not a "foe" of Japan.

***{As Thorstein Veblen rightly noted, many years ago, "A dictatorship in
an industrial nation is a threat to the peace of the world." The rulers of
such a state are the enemies of their own people, whom they brutally
terrorize and oppress, and the inner demons which impel them to force their
will upon others in their own country do not magically vanish when they
deal with the leaders of other nations. To the contrary, they lust for
power over their neighbors just as surely as over their own fellow
countrymen, and, given the opportunity, they will act to achieve that
power. Bottom line: the present Chinese regime is an abomination, and a
deadly threat to any nation which it can intimidate or control. As such, it
is a "foe" to Japan, to the United States, and to all of mankind.
--Mitchell Jones}***

There is no indication that the Chinese have
>any designs on Japan.

***{Not to those who have their heads firmly planted in the sand. --MJ}***

Not even the extremist Japanese right-wing groups
>make this claim. In fact, you are the first person I have ever heard of who
>thinks this. The rightists in Japan say they fear Russia and North Korea.

***{Any nation within reach of the brutal tyrants in Beijing, and
vulnerable to them, has good grounds to fear them. If such concerns are not
currently being voiced by the Japanese popular press, you can be quite sure
they are being voiced within the Japanese military establishment, and that
the need for a nuclear deterrent to deal with the Chinese threat is well
known and openly discussed there. (The alternative hypothesis would have to
be that all Japanese military strategists are mentally retarded.)
--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>I have
>>also repeatedly pointed out that the Japanese have already had the
>>experience of being forced to submit to an enemy by means of nuclear
>>weapons, and, thus, that the need for a nuclear deterrent must be obvious
>>to their military strategists.
>
>They submitted to conventional arms and the submarine blockade. The atom
>bombs caused only a small fraction of the casualties. Furthermore, the
>bombs did not and would not have ended the war if there had not already
>been strong political pressure within Japan to end it.

***{Of course not: the Japanese would have fought on to the bitter end, as
we atom bombed their cities one after the other! --MJ}***

Even after the
>second bomb was dropped, the military leaders demanded that the war
>continue. The civilian government ministers and the Emperor, who had been
>trying to end the war for months, used the bomb as a lever to outvote the
>army and navy in the Imperial Council. The militarists attempted a coup
>d'etat but it was put down by loyalist troops.

***{Amazing. It was merely a coincidence, according to Jed Rothwell, that
the Japanese surrendered shortly after atom bombs began to fall on their
cities! --MJ}***

>
>Because they have actual experience with nuclear weapons, the Japanese
>voters know better than anyone that a nuclear war would be futile. Neither
>side could win. It would be suicide.

***{That's fairly accurate--if both sides possess nuclear arms. However, if
one side has them and the other does not, things are different. We proved
that when we dropped atom bombs on Japan in the 1940's, and forced them to
surrender. Under those circumstances, the use of nuclear weapons was *not*
suicide, and, by the best calculations at the time, enabled us to avoid a
million American casualties (by virtue of not having to invade Japan with
ground forces). --Mitchell Jones}***

There is no chance the public will
>allow nuclear weapons or serious rearmament.

***{As previously noted, governments frequently do things in secret which
they feel that the voters would not tolerate if done openly. --MJ}***

As long as Japan remains a
>democracy no nation has anything to fear from it. Not China, and not us.

***{Irrelevant. The point--which was crystal clear to anyone who wanted to
understand--has been that Japan has plenty to fear from China, not that
China has reason to fear Japan. --MJ}***

>The likelihood that Japan will re-arm and revert to militarism is roughly
>as great as the likelihood that Georgia and Virginia will send armies to
>invade Pennsylvania and refight the battle of Gettysburg.

***{I repeat: the threat is from China, not from Japan. Japan needs nuclear
weapons for defensive purposes--as a deterrent against the Chinese
threat--and if they obtain them, there will be no more implication that
they have reverted to militarism that than France or England or Israel have
reverted to it. --Mitchell Jones}***

Naturally, there
>are still a few fire-eating, xenophobic fascists in Japan, just as there
>are unreformed Confederates here in Georgia, but fortunately they are a
>tiny minority. Progress in civilization is slow, but sometimes people learn
>a lesson. Some nightmares will not be revisited.

***{I repeat: there has never been any implication, in anything I have
said, that Japan is reverting to militarism. They need nuclear weapons for
defensive purposes; and, based on the evidence, it appears that they have
them already. --MJ}***

>
>Mitchell: This is getting off-topic and political, so I'll drop the
>subject.

***{Like it or not, science sometimes has direct political implications.
When that happens, are those implications "off topic." I think not. --MJ}***

If you wish to respond I suggest you move to the gab channel
>Vortex-BL.

***{There is no "gab" channel. Vortexb-l is merely a venue in which any
topic is acceptable. The quality of the analysis that has appeared there is
at least as high as that which has appeared on vortex-l, despite Jed's
repeated implications to the contrary. --MJ}***

I won't respond because I am putting you back on my auto-delete
>list for a while.

***{I guess Jed wasn't having fun. Too bad. :-)  --MJ}***

>
>- Jed


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 08:49:36 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Pressurized H2O-K2CO3 Capsule Tests
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:43:51 -0700
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With a 3.5 x 1/4 inch pipe nipple filled with a mix of H2O-K2CO3,
capped  at one end, with a 200 Lb pressure gauge at the other, the
pipe section was immersed in cooking oil (Canola) and the pressure
observed as the oil was heated in the deep-fat fryer. 
There was a notable pressure excursion at 80 psig (324 F) then after
a time at 100 psig (338 F) there was a momentary pressure
excursion to 120 psig (350 F).

It never got to the predicted optimum of  175 psig (375 F) pressure.

This needs to be looked at using a Differential Thermal Analysis (DTA)
procedure.

Onion rings and chicken wings with 11 herbs and spices,are available if 
you pay for the shipping.   :-)

Regards,     Frederick

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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
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Mitch,

> You can prove this to yourself by detaching the string,
>turning it upside down, and hooking it up that way. If you do, the
>direction of rotation will reverse, because the fiber spiral within the
>string will be in the opposite direction. --MJ}***

Sorry to point out the obvious, and leave you twisting in the breeze, but...

A spiral turned upside down will still spiral in the same direction.

Cross your fingers, look at the finger in front, if you follow it going up it 
goes left or right.  Turn your hand upside down, look at the finger in front, if 
you follow it up it still goes in the same direction.

>From the peanut gallery,

Bill
webriggs concentric.net
briggs XLNsystems.com

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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:23:02 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
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>Mitch,
>
>> You can prove this to yourself by detaching the string,
>>turning it upside down, and hooking it up that way. If you do, the
>>direction of rotation will reverse, because the fiber spiral within the
>>string will be in the opposite direction. --MJ}***
>
>Sorry to point out the obvious, and leave you twisting in the breeze, but...
>
>A spiral turned upside down will still spiral in the same direction.

***{Where have you been, Bill? I pointed that out myself, within an hour of
putting out the original erroneous post. :-) --MJ}***

>
>Cross your fingers, look at the finger in front, if you follow it going up it
>goes left or right.  Turn your hand upside down, look at the finger in
>front, if
>you follow it up it still goes in the same direction.
>
>>From the peanut gallery,

***{Of pathological skeptics? :-) --MJ}***

>
>Bill
>webriggs concentric.net
>briggs XLNsystems.com

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 09:48:40 1999
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From: thomas Malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Dennis, the scam artist, Lee goes MLM
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Dennis Lee is comming to town. He will be at the Edina Community Center on
Oct. 8. He has been offered a $5000 prize by Eric Kreig
http://www.voicenet.com/~eric/skeptic/ , to demonstrate a working F E
machine and he has ignored it. Now he is working with International
Marketing Co. of Urbandale IA. Their plan is to scam people out of $275
each by getting them to invest in a trust. $200 goes into a trust which
will hold the money until Dennis's latest front company, International
Tesla Electric Co. (ITEC) is ready and able to deliver a 15 KW generator.
Since Dennis has no F E generator, or else he would silence Eric Kreig by
demonstrating the machine to him and pocketing his $5000 too, this will
happen about the same time that hell freezes. The literature says
that,"this may never happen."

The suckers who invest (waste) money are encouraged to get 49 of their
neighbors to also put up $275 to form an electrical co-op. This co-op will
accumulate $10,000 from 49 additional suckers (investors) at which time it
will be full. The first sucker is encouraged to do this by the prospect of
free electricity and the $25 per head that he gets from the people he
recurits. I am offended by Dennis's using God's name in an effort to sell
this scam. I am also offended by his use of MLM methods to spread his scam
and suck more money into his operation.  I regret that I will be unable to
attend his Edina meeting.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 10:10:32 1999
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Subject: Re: the nonexistant facilities
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 A
>"secret" nuclear bomb program in Japan is about as plausible as a secret
>U.S. - U.N. fleet of black helicopters and P.O.W. camps. Only a paranoid
>right-wing nut would believe such fantasies.
>
Jed;

If you agree to watch it I will send you a video with pictures of those
nonexistant camps. This was done by a retired General, formerly with the
JCS.

When you fence in an area in chain link with razor wire, if you want to
keep people out you tilt the razor wire outward. These fences have the
razor wire tilted inwards. These fenced in areas are adjacent to a former
railroad shop. Someone piped in large natural gas lines too. Perhaps they
are planning on baking some pies, turkey potpies perhaps.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 10:31:21 1999
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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
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Mitch,

Sorry about that, I'm trying to get caught up on about 350 some odd emails.

It's hard enough following some of these topical threads, and when you add 
twisted threads as the topic of discussion.  Well it get's my little pin 
head to spinning. %-<;^)

Speaking of spinning pins, did you see Fred's post on dropping a pin 
towards the end of a bar magnet and watching it spin?

Bill

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 10:41:27 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:38:22 EDT
Subject: Re: EUV Fluorescent Glasses
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Interesting suggestion, Fred.  If a cell using a container made of that kind 
of EUV-fluorescent Pyrex O-54 worked, it might be a pretty sight.  But it 
might be necessary to use glass fibers, as you suggested.  The reaction might 
only take place around the cathode, and water is opaque to EUV, so the fibers 
might have to be very close to the cathode.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 10:42:03 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Subject: Re: Mills at ACS Meeting?
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Terry,

Thanks for posting the topics of Mills' session at the ACS meeting on 
Wednesday, October 6.  Maybe the BLP website will have more details after the 
meeting.

This could represent a major change in strategy on Mills' part.  As far as I 
know, this is the first time in more than seven years that he's given a 
presentation at a scientific society meeting; and this is the first series of 
papers he's given at any meeting of a scientific society.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 10:43:12 1999
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Jed,

How durable was that 50%W-50%Mo cathode reported used in one run by Ohmori 
and Mizuno in INFINITE ENERGY No. 27?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 10:43:16 1999
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
To: vortex-l <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?

Bill Briggs wrote:
> 
> Speaking of spinning pins, did you see Fred's post on dropping a pin 
> towards the end of a bar magnet and watching it spin?

Hey, what a good memory! A needle on a thread swings into the
B field a the tip of a "cow magnet" and goes into rotary gyrations.

Gotta do that again using the monofilament line.

Best  Regards,    Frederick
> 
> Bill
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 11:11:20 1999
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	 <v04011701b41e90d64e83 [207.8.127.176]>
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thomas Malloy wrote:
> 
> Dennis Lee is comming to town. 

<snip>

> I am offended by Dennis's using God's name in an effort to sell
> this scam. 

Me, too.  These things often have a way of fixing themselves.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 11:25:00 1999
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From: Colin Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
Subject: Re: Dennis, the scam artist, Lee goes MLM
In-Reply-To: <v03007819b420e6d58bef [209.181.169.39]>
References: <v04011703b41eaee662bb [207.8.127.176]>
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After listening to various comments about this scoundrel, I have to wonder
why the government isn't just putting him out of business. With all of his
and his friend's tour expenses, a $10,000 gross income is relatively uh..
peanuts. The ultimate result of his shenanigans will be a loss of faith and
a governmental attack on legitimate New Energy researchers, including CF.
After reading the Jed Rothwell articles in IE about how the DOE and Fusion
community spokesmen underhandedly attacked the Integrity Institute, I have
to speculate that the DOE may be secretly sponsoring this guy.

Colin Quinney

At 11:49 AM 10/06/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Dennis Lee is comming to town. He will be at the Edina Community Center on
>Oct. 8. He has been offered a $5000 prize by Eric Kreig
>http://www.voicenet.com/~eric/skeptic/ , to demonstrate a working F E
>machine and he has ignored it. Now he is working with International
>Marketing Co. of Urbandale IA. Their plan is to scam people out of $275
>each by getting them to invest in a trust. $200 goes into a trust which
>will hold the money until Dennis's latest front company, International
>Tesla Electric Co. (ITEC) is ready and able to deliver a 15 KW generator.
>Since Dennis has no F E generator, or else he would silence Eric Kreig by
>demonstrating the machine to him and pocketing his $5000 too, this will
>happen about the same time that hell freezes. The literature says
>that,"this may never happen."
>
>The suckers who invest (waste) money are encouraged to get 49 of their
>neighbors to also put up $275 to form an electrical co-op. This co-op will
>accumulate $10,000 from 49 additional suckers (investors) at which time it
>will be full. The first sucker is encouraged to do this by the prospect of
>free electricity and the $25 per head that he gets from the people he
>recurits. I am offended by Dennis's using God's name in an effort to sell
>this scam. I am also offended by his use of MLM methods to spread his scam
>and suck more money into his operation.  I regret that I will be unable to
>attend his Edina meeting.
>
>
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 12:55:42 1999
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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 15:55:09 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Gnorts, Vorts,

My firm has been selected to do the design for a potential
Magnelev link between Atlanta and Chattanooga, TN.  The design
will likely be based on the German method since the Japanese have
declined to participate and the domestic vendor design is still
blue sky.  The Germans are coming in about a month for a
technical presentation; but, I would like to do some preliminary
work on power station location selection.

I would appreciate any weblink info anyone might have on Magnelev
Trains.

TIA,
Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 13:00:03 1999
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Message-ID: <19991006195848.14937.rocketmail web127.yahoomail.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:58:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: ron kita <tekcorman yahoo.com>
Subject: Boscoli/Cuprates/Superconduction/Fusion
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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I have always  heard that "cold" fusion would probably
involve superconduction.  There was the Japanese
water splitting experiment that involved rapidly
stirring copper oxide- as a candidate for overunity.

This experiment was covered in IE a few months back.

I was wondering if the deutreation to the copper
salt in the Boscoli process MAY produce a
superconductive effect.  Bear in mind there
are organic and inorganic materials that have
MINUTE regions of superconductivity BUT exhibit
NO bulk superconduction for electron transport..
...hence useless as wires.

Copper compounds....as with the original 1,2,3
ceramic superconductors....still amaze me.


Best,
Ron Kita
Note: Non-bulk superconductors  are determined
by examining Barkhausen noise as a magnetic field
slowly penetrates the small regions of the room
temp or better superconduction.


=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 13:17:02 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: OFF TOPIC (Was Monju breeder reactor)
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At 10:37 AM 10/6/99, Mitchell Jones wrote:
[snip]
>
>***{Like it or not, science sometimes has direct political implications.
>When that happens, are those implications "off topic." I think not. --MJ}***


The issue of on topic vs off topic has been discussed here before ad
nausium. The political topics belong on vortexB.  The vortex list was
designated for serious discussion of anomalous science, especially
regarding experimental results, and theory relating to those results, or to
anticipated experiments.  However, brief off topic forays are often
tolerated or even welcomed here by some because the list is populated with
tolerant people, and the list is only lightly moderated.  The vortexB list
was specifically created as a place to take political debate, protracted
arguments, discussion of pop science like flying saucer or alien
encounters, etc.  The freenrg list is for hobbyist level (or above)
discussion of free energy experiments.  There is a moderated list
(<vortcor-list eskimo.com> moderated by Scott Little if I recall correctly)
avaiable for serious scientifc discussion of specific experiments at the
professional level, if more people like Storms, Puthoff, etc should decide
to make themselves available for such.  That list presently has no message
volume.

When there are no serious experiments to discuss, and message volume is
low, off topic stuff is tolerated much more than when something of on topic
interest develops.  It is still important to continue to realize protracted
debate regarding politics is off topic, as is protracted eigth grade
science level discussion, or any discussion which degenerates to ad hominim
attack.  That way there should be no surprise or offense if or when members
call for a move of discussion.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 13:50:21 1999
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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:43:09 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
Resent-Message-ID: <"uW6SD2.0.j43.HLx-t" mx1>
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>Mitch,
>
>Sorry about that, I'm trying to get caught up on about 350 some odd emails.
>
>It's hard enough following some of these topical threads, and when you add
>twisted threads as the topic of discussion.  Well it get's my little pin
>head to spinning. %-<;^)
>
>Speaking of spinning pins, did you see Fred's post on dropping a pin
>towards the end of a bar magnet and watching it spin?

***{No, but I will go back an check it out, if you know the date or the
subject line. Just thinking about it for a moment, it seems that an
electric current would try to flow in the needle, as it  fell through the
flux lines of the magnet, thereby causing the needle to momentarily acquire
its own magnetic field, with the flux lines rotating in the opposite
direction as those from the bar magnet. That would produce an effective
north pole to north pole configuration, and a torque tending to rotate the
pin. However, as that torque was acting, the current flow in the pin would
be reversing, and so would its magnetic field. Result: by the time the
orientation of the needle was reversed, the orientation of its magnetic
field would also be reversed, and thus the north pole to north pole
orientation would persist, and so would the rotational torque acting on the
pin. There is probably no free energy here, of course, since the entire
process depends on the presence of an external force to keep the needle in
motion.

By the way, what do you think of Fred's speculation's about "Glass Jar ZPE
Motors"? As I understand it, he thinks that if you were to hang an empty
pickle jar from a nylon monofilament thread, with one end attached to the
center of the lid, and the other end attached to a very low friction
swivel, the thing would go into fairly rapid CCW motion, and persist in
that state until the swivel wore out. It seems silly to me, of course, but
then so does his "OU Coffee Cup" heater, and I haven't satisfied myself
that I have refuted that yet, either.

I plan to make another push to investigate both of those claims, as soon as
I get the time. (I'm eyeing an empty pickle jar as we speak. :-)

--MJ}***

>
>Bill

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 14:11:52 1999
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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:11:45 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Thanks to the lurking member who sent me this URL:

http://www.maglev.com/english/index.htm

for the Siemens Transrapid Maglev Train.  Germany is building one
between Hamburg and Berlin (300 km) for an estimated $5.5B. 
That's about $29.5M per mile compared to the Federal DOT estimate
of $12M - $20M per mile.

Atlanta to Chattanooga for $5.84B??!?

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 14:20:54 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Dennis, the scam artist, Lee goes MLM
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References: <v03007819b420e6d58bef [209.181.169.39]>
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Colin Quinney writes:

	After reading the Jed Rothwell articles in IE about how the DOE
	and Fusion community spokesmen underhandedly attacked the
	Integrity Institute, I have to speculate that the DOE may be
	secretly sponsoring this guy.

That never occurred to me! It would be diabolically clever . . .

Naaaa. Say what you like about the DOE, they are not "diabolically clever."

Lee is a scoundrel. Eric Krieg has urged us to print an article exposing
him, but Gene says no. I now see the wisdom of his decision. We do not want
to be associated with Lee, not even to the point where we him or attack him.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 14:33:44 1999
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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
In-reply-to: <v04011703b4213dce150b [207.8.127.236]>
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Mitch,

The only thing that came to mind was JL Naudin's work with Poynting thrust.

If (and that's a big IF) the jar with a metal top insulates an area of air 
electrically in relation to the ground plane of the earth, then it may form a 
weak capacitor.  But where where does the uneven charging come from, not to 
mention the high voltages required?  If this could create anywhere near the 
capacitive charge needed, then why aren't we all being knocked on our butts at 
the grocery store whilst picking out our pickles?

Bill
webriggs concentric.net
briggs XLNsystems.com

>By the way, what do you think of Fred's speculation's about "Glass Jar ZPE
>Motors"? As I understand it, he thinks that if you were to hang an empty
>pickle jar from a nylon monofilament thread, with one end attached to the
>center of the lid, and the other end attached to a very low friction
>swivel, the thing would go into fairly rapid CCW motion, and persist in
>that state until the swivel wore out. It seems silly to me, of course, but
>then so does his "OU Coffee Cup" heater, and I haven't satisfied myself
>that I have refuted that yet, either.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 14:48:44 1999
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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:53:38 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Pressurized H2O-K2CO3 Capsule Tests
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At 9:43 AM 10/6/99, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>With a 3.5 x 1/4 inch pipe nipple filled with a mix of H2O-K2CO3,
>capped  at one end, with a 200 Lb pressure gauge at the other, the
>pipe section was immersed in cooking oil (Canola) and the pressure
>observed as the oil was heated in the deep-fat fryer.
>There was a notable pressure excursion at 80 psig (324 F) then after
>a time at 100 psig (338 F) there was a momentary pressure
>excursion to 120 psig (350 F).


What kind of pipe are you using?  Is it stainless or possibly galvinized?


>
>It never got to the predicted optimum of  175 psig (375 F) pressure.


Why not?  Did you turn it off for some reason?

Any chance the K2CO3 is reacting with the pipe?

BTW, assuming ambient conditions are fairly constant, you might be able to
do approximate calorimetry by simply counting the time on and time off for
the thermostat, once thermal equilibrium is reached, and do it with the
subject pipe and later with a control pipe having only water.  Most fryers
have a thermostat light.


>
>This needs to be looked at using a Differential Thermal Analysis (DTA)
>procedure.
>
>Onion rings and chicken wings with 11 herbs and spices,are available if
>you pay for the shipping.   :-)


Too bad, I'm on a low fat diet.  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 15:32:54 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Maglev Trains
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At 5:11 PM 10/6/99, Terry Blanton wrote:
>Thanks to the lurking member who sent me this URL:
>
>http://www.maglev.com/english/index.htm
>
>for the Siemens Transrapid Maglev Train.  Germany is building one
>between Hamburg and Berlin (300 km) for an estimated $5.5B.
>That's about $29.5M per mile compared to the Federal DOT estimate
>of $12M - $20M per mile.
>
>Atlanta to Chattanooga for $5.84B??!?
>
>Terry


Personally, my two cents worth is that maglev is nonsense, unless it can be
done at a price similar to wheels.  If memory serves, the original
necessity for maglev was to permit energy free vacuum tube transportation
(envisioned at least a century ago) in which case maglev is maybe not so
foolish, especially if it can be had for no continual energy output.  I
think using superconducting levitators plus a vacuum transport tube could
provide nearly energy free supersonic trans-continental transportation -
except for the obvious energy problem of maintaining the vacuum!  At least
it is one way to avoid collisions with trucks at crossings.  8^)  Perhaps a
pneumatic tube approach  could be used and the air pushed/pulled using
ground based jet engines.

For more realistic ideas check out Sandia Labs:

   http://www.sandia.gov/pulspowr/ppeng/seraphim.html

I suspect, with adaptation, their SERAPHIM method of using AC induction for
pushing on the leading edge of grooves cut in metal rails could be used for
either propusion or levitation, or both plus centering the train by using a
T rail.  There is an energy/cost trade-off, but the idea apparently is in
the range of the practical for at least propulsion.

Here is a quote from their site:  "The Segmented Rail Phased Induction
Motor (SERAPHIM), developed at Sandia National Laboratories, is a compact,
pulsed linear induction motor (LIM) offering a unique capability for
high-speed train propulsion. It uses technology developed for the Sandia
coil gun, an electromagnetic launcher designed to accelerate large
projectiles to several kilometers per second!  For a train at sea level,
however, the power required to overcome air resistance limits the
operational speed to a more modest 300 mph."

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 15:59:07 1999
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Thanks for your comments and info, Horace.  I agree that the
SeRaPhIM method holds great promise; however, there are still
questions about whether the tracks will withstand the loads
associated with a train moving at speeds approching 500
kilometers per hour.  Also, SeRaPhIM systems exist as models only
and Georgia is not interested in being the guinea pig.  SeRaPhIM
was in consideration for the Orlando system.  I wonder what
happend to that one?

I agree that maglev is nonsense. Wheeled systems, even high speed
ones, cost on the order of $10M per mile to construct.

Regarding the vacuum systems, the Swiss are planning Swissmetro,
a maglev that would run in a partial vacuum in a network of
subterranean tubes. Although the vacuum would substantially
reduce the energy consumption of the trains, tunnel construction
costs are estimated to consume a whopping 75 % of project funds.

Hey, did you know that the first subway system in NYC was a
pneumatic system? 

Terry

Horace Heffner wrote:

> Personally, my two cents worth is that maglev is nonsense, unless it can be
> done at a price similar to wheels.  If memory serves, the original
> necessity for maglev was to permit energy free vacuum tube transportation
> (envisioned at least a century ago) in which case maglev is maybe not so
> foolish, especially if it can be had for no continual energy output.  I
> think using superconducting levitators plus a vacuum transport tube could
> provide nearly energy free supersonic trans-continental transportation -
> except for the obvious energy problem of maintaining the vacuum!  At least
> it is one way to avoid collisions with trucks at crossings.  8^)  Perhaps a
> pneumatic tube approach  could be used and the air pushed/pulled using
> ground based jet engines.
> 
> For more realistic ideas check out Sandia Labs:
> 
>    http://www.sandia.gov/pulspowr/ppeng/seraphim.html
> 
> I suspect, with adaptation, their SERAPHIM method of using AC induction for
> pushing on the leading edge of grooves cut in metal rails could be used for
> either propusion or levitation, or both plus centering the train by using a
> T rail.  There is an energy/cost trade-off, but the idea apparently is in
> the range of the practical for at least propulsion.
> 
> Here is a quote from their site:  "The Segmented Rail Phased Induction
> Motor (SERAPHIM), developed at Sandia National Laboratories, is a compact,
> pulsed linear induction motor (LIM) offering a unique capability for
> high-speed train propulsion. It uses technology developed for the Sandia
> coil gun, an electromagnetic launcher designed to accelerate large
> projectiles to several kilometers per second!  For a train at sea level,
> however, the power required to overcome air resistance limits the
> operational speed to a more modest 300 mph."
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 16:06:12 1999
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From: "Bill Wallace`" <btech surfsouth.com>
To: "Terry Blanton" <commengr bellsouth.net>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
References: <37FBBB11.C1638864 bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Maglev Trains
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Is it the DOT that is going to build this?  Or amtrack?  I am curious to
know why they suddenly feel their is a need and why between these two
cities?  Thanks Terry.  Also what company do you work for that is looking
into this?

----- Original Message -----
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 5:11 PM
Subject: Maglev Trains


> Thanks to the lurking member who sent me this URL:
>
> http://www.maglev.com/english/index.htm
>
> for the Siemens Transrapid Maglev Train.  Germany is building one
> between Hamburg and Berlin (300 km) for an estimated $5.5B.
> That's about $29.5M per mile compared to the Federal DOT estimate
> of $12M - $20M per mile.
>
> Atlanta to Chattanooga for $5.84B??!?
>
> Terry
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 16:16:18 1999
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Bill Wallace` wrote:
> 
> Is it the DOT that is going to build this?  Or amtrack?  I am curious to
> know why they suddenly feel their is a need and why between these two
> cities?  Thanks Terry.  Also what company do you work for that is looking
> into this?

We have a new system here in Georgia.  The newly created Georgia
Regional Transportation Authority is over DOT and other
transportation authorities in hopes of thawing those Federal
funds frozen due to our air quality problem.  The Georgia
Passenger Rail Authority is pushing the maglev to Chattanooga
with support of the Feds.  Amtrak is not involved.

Why Chattanooga?  My question also.  They have a newly renovated
airport there and Atlanta/Hartsfield is overwhelmed with
traffic.  But, now get this, we are about to undertake a $4B
expansion to Hartsfield Airport -- even though the real problem
is the air corridor, not the number of runways.  Heck, for $4B we
can expand the Macon, GA airport *and* build high speed (wheeled)
trains to Macon.  Plus, this keeps the revenue in the State.

My company is Parson Brinckerhoff Quade and Douglas, based in One
Penn Center, NYC.  ENR just rated us #1 in transportation
engineering for the 11th year in a row.  The "Parson" was they
guy who built the first NY subways.

Terry

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----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
To: vortex-l <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?

Bill Briggs wrote:


> Mitch,
>
> The only thing that came to mind was JL Naudin's work with Poynting
thrust.
>
> If (and that's a big IF) the jar with a metal top insulates an area of air
> electrically in relation to the ground plane of the earth, then it may
form a
> weak capacitor.  But where where does the uneven charging come from, not
to
> mention the high voltages required?  If this could create anywhere near
the
> capacitive charge needed, then why aren't we all being knocked on our
butts at
> the grocery store whilst picking out our pickles?

If you are referring to the Fair Weather Field, it is about 135 volts/meter
at
sealevel and about 20 volts/meter at 15,000 ft.

Why assume that Zero Point Fluctuations (Energy) are electrical in Nature,
even though there could be zillions of frequencies/wavelengths propagating
at c?

Water waves  (Transverse)dump a lot of energy without any EM properties
involved, don't they?  And if you excite-create them with the proper
wavelength
they can take on "optical-optomechanical" properties.

Regards,    Frederick
>
> Bill
> webriggs concentric.net
> briggs XLNsystems.com
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 16:28:08 1999
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <v01530501b4217304c780 [12.21.211.180]>
Subject: Re: Pressurized H2O-K2CO3 Capsule Tests
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----- Original Message -----
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: Pressurized H2O-K2CO3 Capsule Tests

Horace wrote:
>
> What kind of pipe are you using?  Is it stainless or possibly galvinized?

Not stainless on my budget. :-) There might be a minor amount
of a potassium zincate formed, but the purpose of the "experiment" was
to establish a protocol for doing it right using a compression-sealed
sheathed thermocouple and DTA.
>
> >
> >It never got to the predicted optimum of  175 psig (375 F) pressure.
>
> Why not?  Did you turn it off for some reason?

Nope. the bourdon tube in the gauge was acting as a heat sink and
dumping the heat even though there was a compressed air pocket
in it. A larger pipe length or diameter would get around this problem.
>
> Any chance the K2CO3 is reacting with the pipe?

Not enough to be concerned about.
>
> BTW, assuming ambient conditions are fairly constant, you might be able to
> do approximate calorimetry by simply counting the time on and time off for
> the thermostat, once thermal equilibrium is reached, and do it with the
> subject pipe and later with a control pipe having only water.  Most fryers
> have a thermostat light.

This is an El Cheapo 48 oz capacity unit that has no control circuitry,
except possibly an overtemp thermostat, and a manual pull-the-plug
controller (me).
> .
> >
> >Onion rings and chicken wings with 11 herbs and spices,are available if
> >you pay for the shipping.   :-)
>
> Too bad, I'm on a low fat diet.  8^)

Are the whales skinny this year?   :-)

Regards,   Frederick
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 18:00:27 1999
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From: "e lewis" <elewis1 hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Boscoli/Cuprates/Superconduction/Fusion
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:58:45 PDT
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Under certain conditions, the atoms in electrodes show plasmoid behavior or 
clump as bigger plasmoids, and plasmoids show superconductive behavior.





>From: ron kita <tekcorman yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Boscoli/Cuprates/Superconduction/Fusion
>Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:58:48 -0700 (PDT)
>
>I have always  heard that "cold" fusion would probably
>involve superconduction.  There was the Japanese
>water splitting experiment that involved rapidly
>stirring copper oxide- as a candidate for overunity.
>
>This experiment was covered in IE a few months back.
>
>I was wondering if the deutreation to the copper
>salt in the Boscoli process MAY produce a
>superconductive effect.  Bear in mind there
>are organic and inorganic materials that have
>MINUTE regions of superconductivity BUT exhibit
>NO bulk superconduction for electron transport..
>...hence useless as wires.
>
>Copper compounds....as with the original 1,2,3
>ceramic superconductors....still amaze me.
>
>
>Best,
>Ron Kita
>Note: Non-bulk superconductors  are determined
>by examining Barkhausen noise as a magnetic field
>slowly penetrates the small regions of the room
>temp or better superconduction.
>
>
>=====
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 18:50:15 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Maglev Trains
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At 6:59 PM 10/6/99, Terry Blanton wrote:
>Thanks for your comments and info, Horace.  I agree that the
>SeRaPhIM method holds great promise; however, there are still
>questions about whether the tracks will withstand the loads
>associated with a train moving at speeds approching 500
>kilometers per hour.

Somehow that argument doesn't make sense to me.  With maglev you ultimately
have exactly the same loads (assuming a cushy suspension system) and
geologic problems plus the additional uncertainties associted with magnetic
suspension which can "bottom out" or otherwise fail.  The roadbed has to
carry the same loads.  The rails themsleves and wheels require engineering
for higher speeds, but any limitations you might have for wheels you
ultimately have to deal with one way or another with maglev, even if it is
only in the form of failure protection.  One exception with wheels is the
problem of direct wear.  Perhaps rail based air cushion technology would be
a good compromise.  Some details along those lines have been tested on
rocket sleds if memory serves.  Maybe somebody at China Lake could help you
out.

For some reason I realy like the idea of a tube, even if a good part of the
tube is open.  It sounds structurally much better than tracks, and
derailing should not be a problem.  Air cushion pads with suspension arms
should work well for centering the train in the tube or tube-like
framework.


>Also, SeRaPhIM systems exist as models only
>and Georgia is not interested in being the guinea pig.


Oh - you are looking to buy proven technology.  That's a tough one!  8^)


> SeRaPhIM
>was in consideration for the Orlando system.  I wonder what
>happend to that one?
>
>I agree that maglev is nonsense. Wheeled systems, even high speed
>ones, cost on the order of $10M per mile to construct.
>
>Regarding the vacuum systems, the Swiss are planning Swissmetro,
>a maglev that would run in a partial vacuum in a network of
>subterranean tubes. Although the vacuum would substantially
>reduce the energy consumption of the trains, tunnel construction
>costs are estimated to consume a whopping 75 % of project funds.


I'll bet a large portion of that 75% can be avoided by going overhead -
although Switzerland and Tennessee aren't exactly flat!   A straight enough
path through the mountains may be a problem for the Swiss.  Undergound
would also fit in with their defense strategy much better too.  It may be
possible to put in a high speed overhead system in conjunction with the
freeways here in the USA.


>
>Hey, did you know that the first subway system in NYC was a
>pneumatic system?


At first I thought no, but now I think about it it seems like I read about
that in Popular Science... or maybe it was on a table at a Subway chain
restaurant.  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 20:45:11 1999
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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:41:58 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
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>Mitch,
>
>The only thing that came to mind was JL Naudin's work with Poynting thrust.
>
>If (and that's a big IF) the jar with a metal top insulates an area of air
>electrically in relation to the ground plane of the earth, then it may form a
>weak capacitor.  But where where does the uneven charging come from, not to
>mention the high voltages required?  If this could create anywhere near the
>capacitive charge needed, then why aren't we all being knocked on our
>butts at
>the grocery store whilst picking out our pickles?
>
>Bill

***{Tonight I hung a Vlasic pickle jar from a monofilament nylon sewing
thread that was just barely strong enough to hold the weight, just to do a
shakedown cruise and see if I could get Fred's counter-clockwise (CCW)
rotation. Well, at first I did, and it went on for a l-o-o-o-n-g time, so I
almost began to believe that something important was going on. However,
eventually the thing stopped turning and began to rotate in the CW
direction. But it did not do that for very long before reversing and going
CCW again. After watching it for awhile, it became apparent that it was
oscillating like a pendulum, but doing it by first twisting the thread to
the right, then to the left, etc., rather than by swinging back and forth.
Then, after more than an hour, it ceased all movement, and began to hang
motionless. At that point I made a mark on the rim and stood a dowel next
to it, to mark the equilibrium point, and then removed the glass from the
jar, leaving the lid hanging from the thread. When I released it, the
thread shortened by several inches due to the reduction in the weight, but
when the lid stopped moving, the mark was next to the dowel, indicating
that there was no invisible spiral of twisted fibers remaining in the
thread. Apparently there had been such a spiral at the beginning, but by
hanging the weight of the pickle jar on the thread for more than an hour,
those internal fibers had been straightened out. Thus I expected that, when
I re-hung the pickle jar on the thread, it would merely rotate back and
forth around the equilibrium point, showing no tendency to rotate
preferentially in one direction over the other, and that is exactly what
happened. Conclusion: Fred's impression that something odd was going on
must have been formed either the first time he hung a weight from his
thread, before the internal fibers had been stretched into straightness, or
else he used a monofilament line that was much stronger than needed to
support his jar, and thus one which required a much heavier weight than his
jar to straighten its internal fibers. That, of course, is a question which
only he can answer. My suggestion to him, however, is that he hang a weight
on his line that is almost heavy enough to break the line, and leave it
there for a couple of hours. That should be enough to straighten out its
internal spiral, and, after that, I think he will find that his anomalous
behavior will go away. --Mitchell Jones}***
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 20:56:17 1999
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Dennis, the scam artist, Lee goes MLM
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 20:55:26 PDT
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Thomas writes:

I am offended by Dennis's using God's name in an effort to sell
>this scam.

Hi Thomas,

I have noticed you have a belief in God and I mention God in my work too 
that many object to.  I just hope you and everyone realize I have not taken 
the route of trying to start a business with Whirlpower.  But I don't object 
to those who try to raise money to try new stuff.  Only when scientists 
misrepresent or steal other folks ideas do I have an objection.  This may 
backfire in my face if someone steals my work and that is reason I hope 
someone will one day publish my ideas.  I have real test of principle model. 
   Publication to a larger audience will give those most talented at 
scientific experiments a chance to build a whirlpool and see what it will 
do.  We see some pretty good interest on the "swinging vortex".  I think has 
a chance of working but little chance of generating the kind of power needed 
or the kind of power Whirlpower can produce.  But it is definately in the 
same ballpark.

You asked earlier if I knew of Russel's work.  Not really. Someone mentioned 
him to me recently and said it was similar.  I have not actually seen it yet 
but from what I understand he had a concept of density that is similar to 
mine.

David

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 22:43:40 1999
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Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?   Phase II
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Phase II will entail observing spiders spinning CCW as they jump
off my roof spewing silk monofilaments out the... so to speak.   :-)

Regards,     Frederick


 http://www.pathfinder.com/TFK/spider.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 22:51:24 1999
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	The jar untwists the thread or string....

	That is it.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  6 23:02:32 1999
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Vorts, 

 Attached  is  the complete description of the pie pan levitator that I
 think might be modified for experimentation with "force fields".   That
 the  levitator  actually  produces  what can be called a force field is
 interesting in the  context  of  the  Allende  Letters  where  "Carlos"
 alleges  that  this  is  what the PX was all about (generating a "force
 field").

 Here are the possible similarities to Allende's description:

 1.   He  alleges  that  putting  ones  hand  in  the  field  produced a
 detectable sensation. (not that I am entirely  sure  this  occurs  with
 the  actual  levitator  but it seems to me that if eddy currents can be
 generated in the pie pan then the same kind of currents would appear in
 the conductive cells and salty blood plasma in one's hand, etc)

 2. Resonance is used to achieve the effect.

 3. Concentric coils similar in configuration to  that  which  might  be
 used in degaussing experiments.

 4. Runs on available 60 hz power

 5. Water may boil coming in  contact  with  the  affected  experimental
 object. If one puts water in the pie pan the weight of the water will 
 overcome the levitation field, but the water will boil. (Theory: the
 ship was not levitated due to excessive weight but apperently boiling 
 of the water around the hull was a side effect creating fog around
 the ship)

  The  one thing missing is the highly ionized air static felt because I
 don't think the levitator will produce that due to the  fact  that  the
 maximum  AC  voltage  is  only about 220 vac. But higher voltages might
 come about in a larger scale experiment.

  I am hoping there might be a way to scale down the levitator as it  is
 described  in  the  following  so  I  will not have to gather up 46 non
 polarized 330 volt ac capacitors (184 uf). Hopefully I can get by  with
 2  - 24 uf 330 v units that I do have on hand.  I am not necessarily 
 interested in levitating anything but I am interested in the effects
that
 may  be produced by the 180 degree phasing of the coil currents that
seems
 like an unusual thing to me.

 I  would  appreciate  any  suggestions  along  these  lines as may seem
 reasonable.

 Attached is a gif drawing that  will  help  everyone  follow  the  word
 description  that  is  about to occur after I finish these introductory
 comments. Note my clever color coding of the individual coils  that  is
 not available in the original write-up. (I am an "artiste") :-)

 There are four separate coils in the circuit, which is  consistent 
with
 the  idea  that there were coils wrapped around the ship and a "toroid"
 of some kind, very heavy, inside the ship.

  The  original  text  gives complete construction details for the thing
 including number of turns and wire  gauge  which  may  be  helpfull  in
 determining  the  inductance  values  for  the  coils themselves, which
 unfortunately, is not given.  My  hope  is  however  that  we  can  use
 microcap  to  simulate  the  operation  of  the  levitator as described
 because from that point I could work with it in simulation until I  got
 to a design I think I could actually build that more suits my purposes.
 (I want to "feel" a force field if nothing else- hopefully my hand 
will
 not become embedded in the pole pierces or anything like  that  as  was
 depicted in the movie).

 ** Alright, Alright! ;-)    Here's the technical description:

 The  operation  of the levitator is based on Lenz's law. The pole
pieces
 are arranged in a six armed star array as geometrically depicted in  my
 sketch  (physical detail of the pole pieces themselves will be sent in
 a separate drawing as the need arizes) .  Because  the  pieces  reverse
 their  polarity periodically with the alternating current in the coils,
 the changing  magnetic  field  induces  strong  eddy  currents  in  the
 conducting  aluminum  pan.  In  accordance  with  Lenz's  law  the eddy
 currents give rise to opposing fields and the aluminum pan is subjected
 to an upward force in the central region of the levitator.

 The field along the circumfreance provides the needed stability.  When
 the  pan is displaced from the equilibrium position above the center of
 the device, the stronger eddy currents induced in that side of the  pam
 nearest  the  periphery  of  the  device  increase  the repulsive force
 components acting on the pan in  a  direction  opposite  to  the  pan's
 displacement.

  The electrical connections are as shown in the schemnatic in the upper
 right.  The  colors  correspond  to  the  respective coils in the cross
 section and top view drawings. The letter S and  F  signify  Start  and
 Finish,  respectively  of  each  coil. From the drawing hopefully it is
 clear that the electron current in the two inner coils (1) and (2)  and
 in  the  two  outer  coils,  3  and 4, respectively, must have the same
 direction. and that the electron currents in these two pairs  of  coils
 must  oppose  each  other  if the magnetic induction shown in the cross
 section drawing is to be achieved.

 All four coils are wound in the same sense. If one now assumes that the
 bottom  line  in  the  schematic  figure  is  momentarily negative, the
 currents in coil 1 and coil 2 appear  to  be  in  opposite  directions,
 because  the  electrons  flow  from S to F in coil 1 and from F to S in
 coil 2. The same seems true of the currents in coils 3 and 4  in  which
 electrons appear to flow from F to S in coil 3, and from S to F in coil
 4.

  In  ACTUALITY HOWEVER, the voltage across the pair of coils 2 and 4 is
 approximately 180 degrees out of phase with the voltage across the pair
 of  coils  1  and  3,  as  can  be  readily  seen  from  the  following
 considerations:

 The  circuit appearing in my gif picture can be simplified by combining
 impedances  as in this ascii drawing:

                        B             E
           -------------*-------------*
                        |             |
                        |          -------  C2
                        |          -------
                        |             | D
                       (             (
                         )             )
                 L1    (         L2  (
                         )             )
                        |             |
           -------------*-------------*
                        A             C


 The resulting circuit is parallel resonant. By increasing the  capacity
 sufficiently,  the  circuit  is  brought  into  resonance.  Under  this
 condition branch CE is capacitive and branch AB is inductive. If  V  is
 the  applied  voltage, the potential drops across AB and CE are also V.
 since the resistances of the coils are small, the current Il in L1 lags
 behind V by nearly 90 degrees, and the current Ic in  branch  CE  leads
 the  voltage V by nearly 90 degrees.  Now the current Ic is the same in
 both C2 and L2 since these two components are  in  series.  But  L2  is
 inductive;  hence,  the  potential  drop  Vcd  across  L2 must lead the
 current Ic by nearly 90 degrees. It is clear then that from the diagram
 Vcd is approximately 180 degrees out of phase  with  the  potential  V
 applied to L1.

 The  potential  drop  Vde  across  the capacitor C2 must lag behind the
 current Ic by approximately 90 degrees. The sum of  Vcd  and  Vde  must
 equal the applied voltage.

 When  the levitator is in operation, the measured values of Vcd and Vde
 are 100v and 215v, respectively.

            Inside     Outside       Length      Coil       Turns per
            Diameter   Diameter                  Turns         Layer
 Coil 1     2-3/4"       9"           1-3/4"      303           17
 Coil 2                                           297           17
 Coil 3     10-1/2"     13-1/4"       1-3/4       135           17
 Coil 4                                           150           17

 Wire size: No. 12 B & S double cotton covered magnet wire
 Capacitors: 46, surplus General; Electric Pyranol 4 mf, 330v

 ** "Alright, Alright! The result was the  complete  invisibility  of  a
 ship, Destroyer type, and _all_ of it's crew" - Carlos Allende

Jim Ostrowski

--------------712B16AC2D8D
Content-Type: image/gif; name="LEVIT.GIF"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="LEVIT.GIF"

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--------------712B16AC2D8D--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  7 07:32:22 1999
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Message-ID: <37FCAED4.707697F3 bellsouth.net>
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 10:31:48 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Horace Heffner wrote:

<snip>
 
> >Also, SeRaPhIM systems exist as models only
> >and Georgia is not interested in being the guinea pig.
> 
> Oh - you are looking to buy proven technology.  That's a tough one!  8^)

Yeah, it's those engineering ethics again.  SeRaPhIM is not out
of the running; however, without a working system they may only
legitimize the bidding process since the Nipponese have declined
to propose.  We meet the proponents next month, I'll let you
know!

Terry

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Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
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I repeated the test that you so lucidly described Mitchell, with about the
same results.

I used a one gallon pickle jar that weighed 2.5 lbs. When I filled it with
water to 10.5 Lbs, the "20 lb test" monofilament line that I've been
using,broke.

 http://www.instron.com/index1.html

The line broke at 5 lbs too.  Apparently it has oxidized during
the past 7 or 8 years that it's been on the shelf.

If you can come up with about $7K the Table Model Instrons
are great for testing these things. Also great for measuring
electrostatic and/or magnetic attractive/repulsive forces from
milligrams to several kilograms.

Regards,   Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  7 08:11:57 1999
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	How do plasmoids "show superconductive behavior?"  Do they exhibit
Meissner effect?  In what material [s] do they do this... and how  ?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  7 08:19:29 1999
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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Re: Maglev Trains
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Terry,

Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy a small fleet of commuter propjets.

Then when something better & cheaper & *proven* comes along you can sell the 
planes.  A massive Maglev corridor isn't exactly movable or marketable.

Bill
webriggs concentric.net
briggs XLNsystems.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  7 08:23:11 1999
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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 11:22:33 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 wrote:
> 
> Terry,
> 
> Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy a small fleet of commuter propjets.
> 
> Then when something better & cheaper & *proven* comes along you can sell the
> planes.  A massive Maglev corridor isn't exactly movable or marketable.

Well, uh, sure!  But one of the ideas for the train is to allow
people to utilize the newly rennovated airport at Chattanooga
because of air traffic congestion here in Atl.

Also, it has been my experience that oft times the Federal and
State gov'ts dictate a particular solution for political
purposes. (Yes, stifle your shock!)  E.G., just prior to the '96
Olympics, we implemented a GPSS based bus tracking system for
MARTA.  Although we could not justify the $20M expenditure, the
Feds said that we *would* do it because *they* write the checks. 
We saluted and implemented the system.

So, now they want a maglev train over a corridor with congested
air and highway traffic.  If they are going to pay 4.5 of the
$5B, who are we to argue?  :-)

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  7 09:50:38 1999
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Mitchell Jones wrote

(snip)

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."

The Mitchell Jones equation:  "to disagree" = "demand for free copy of
book"

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  7 10:11:04 1999
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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 11:31:40 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Maglev Trains
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I have driven from Atlanta to Chattanooga three times. There were long
stretches with hardly any traffic. A multibillion dollar project to install
high-speed rail on this route is preposterous. The only place in the U.S.
that can use high speed intercity rail is the Boston - Washington corridor.

What we need for intercity traffic is better air traffic control. In
Atlanta we need to expand the subway and add light rail. So many
neighborhoods are calling for the subway, the planners cannot decide where
to build next.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  7 10:30:25 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
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	John Schnurer Wrote

	"to be joyous" = "to be full of glad wonder"


On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> Mitchell Jones wrote
> 
> (snip)
> 
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."
> 
> The Mitchell Jones equation:  "to disagree" = "demand for free copy of
> book"
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  7 10:34:45 1999
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
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>I repeated the test that you so lucidly described Mitchell, with about the
>same results.

***{I find it fascinating that, within the seemingly homogeneous material
of a nylon monofilament line, there are hidden spirals which are strong
enough to account for this effect. My guess is that they exist in the
organic polymer strands of the molecules themselves. Such an explanation
requires millions of parallel molecular strands, and thus implies that the
untwisting of individual molecular strands is sufficient to force the
twisting of neighboring strands around one another. To test this, I hung a
pickle jar from four straight strands of twisted spiral cotton thread, to
see if the untwisting of the fibers within the individual threads would
bring about a twisting of the four threads around one another. Sure enough,
it did: when equilibrium was reached, the four threads were twisted into a
CCW spiral. Thus it appears that the same explanation applies both to the
counter-clockwise rotation that results when cotton thread is used, and to
that which results when monofilament line is used. In both cases, the
rotation is the result of the untwisting of spirals within the material. In
the case of the cotton thread, the spirals are visible to the naked eye; in
the case of the monofilament line, they are microscopic; but the result of
the untwisting--CCW rotation--is the same in both cases. --Mitchell
Jones}***

>
>I used a one gallon pickle jar that weighed 2.5 lbs. When I filled it with
>water to 10.5 Lbs, the "20 lb test" monofilament line that I've been
>using,broke.
>
> http://www.instron.com/index1.html
>
>The line broke at 5 lbs too.  Apparently it has oxidized during
>the past 7 or 8 years that it's been on the shelf.

***{Very likely. My nylon thread had also been setting around for years,
and seemed noticeably weaker than when first purchased. --MJ}***

>
>If you can come up with about $7K the Table Model Instrons
>are great for testing these things. Also great for measuring
>electrostatic and/or magnetic attractive/repulsive forces from
>milligrams to several kilograms.
>
>Regards,   Frederick

***{By the way, I purchased a 5-amp, single-phase, power company meter for
$50. My plan, when I get around to it, is to attach a cord so I can plug
the line connection into a wall socket, and attach a plug to the load
connection, so that I can plug an appliance--e.g., a coffee cup
heater--into it. Then, by simply counting the number of turns of the
rotating disk, I will be able to determine the actual power consumption of
the device. Since I will no longer have to rely on the manufacturer's specs
to calculate input power, I should be able to give you a more definitive
answer about whether the coffee cup heater is "over unity" or not. (I
remain totally convinced that it isn't, despite my inability, thus far, to
prove it.)

As to why I have to count disk rotations to determine power, the reason is
that the digital readout of my power company meter is in kilowatt hours.
Since a 200 watt coffee cup heater will take 1/.2 = 5 hours to register a
kilowatt hour of energy usage, whereas it only takes about 6 minutes for
the coffee cup to boil, it is not possible to use the digital readout to
determine the energy consumption. Instead, I must rely on the fact that the
disk of the meter turns once for every .6 watt hours consumed, or 1666.66
revolutions per kilowatt hour. Thus I can expect roughly
[(6/60)/5](1666.66) = 33.33 revolutions of the disk over the duration of my
experiment, and I will, for the present, be reduced to eyeballing the disk
and counting the revolutions. (There is, however, a hole in the rotating
disk. Thus, when I get the time, I plan to place a small light on one side
of the disk, a photodiode on the other, and wire in a counter circuit to
display the number of revolutions. The count will increment each time the
hole goes by, because the light will shine through at that point, affecting
the photodiode.)

-Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."

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----- Original Message -----
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 1999 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?

Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
> ***{I find it fascinating that, within the seemingly homogeneous material
> of a nylon monofilament line, there are hidden spirals which are strong
> enough to account for this effect. My guess is that they exist in the
> organic polymer strands of the molecules themselves. Such an explanation
> requires millions of parallel molecular strands, and thus implies that the
> untwisting of individual molecular strands is sufficient to force the
> twisting of neighboring strands around one another. To test this, I hung a
> pickle jar from four straight strands of twisted spiral cotton thread, to
> see if the untwisting of the fibers within the individual threads would
> bring about a twisting of the four threads around one another. Sure
enough,
> it did: when equilibrium was reached, the four threads were twisted into a
> CCW spiral. Thus it appears that the same explanation applies both to the
> counter-clockwise rotation that results when cotton thread is used, and to
> that which results when monofilament line is used. In both cases, the
> rotation is the result of the untwisting of spirals within the material.
In
> the case of the cotton thread, the spirals are visible to the naked eye;
in
> the case of the monofilament line, they are microscopic; but the result of
> the untwisting--CCW rotation--is the same in both cases. --Mitchell
> Jones}***

Amazing similarity between proteins and the Nylon polymers. Depending
on the formulation, you can get Linear, Branched, and Cross-Linked
"strands" in the same "Monofilament" with the elimination of H2O.
Thus, monofilament is a misnomer, but the branching and cross-linking
 may give it the strength.

Rayon, A Cellulose Acetate Fiber, is more likely to be a monofilament, but
probably isn't very strong.
>
> ***{By the way, I purchased a 5-amp, single-phase, power company meter for
> $50. My plan, when I get around to it, is to attach a cord so I can plug
> the line connection into a wall socket, and attach a plug to the load
> connection, so that I can plug an appliance--e.g., a coffee cup
> heater--into it. Then, by simply counting the number of turns of the
> rotating disk, I will be able to determine the actual power consumption of
> the device.
>
 Good. I measured the cold resistance of the heater from the plug prongs
and the A.C. at the wall socket, then Power = E^2/R and assumed that R might
increase slightly and  decrease Power.

Regards,    Frederick
>
> -Mitchell Jones}***
>
> [snip]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  7 12:35:49 1999
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I have driven from Atlanta to Chattanooga three times. There were long
> stretches with hardly any traffic. A multibillion dollar project to install
> high-speed rail on this route is preposterous. The only place in the U.S.
> that can use high speed intercity rail is the Boston - Washington corridor.

I agree, Jed.  The hope is that people will go to Chattanooga to
use their airport.  Otherwise, it makes no sense.  Well, anywise
it makes no sense.
 
> What we need for intercity traffic is better air traffic control. In
> Atlanta we need to expand the subway and add light rail. So many
> neighborhoods are calling for the subway, the planners cannot decide where
> to build next.

The really interesting thing is, that the personal automobile
accounts for only 1/3 of our pollution problem.

Terry

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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 15:41:59 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Maglev Trains
In-Reply-To: <37FCF4B2.EBD6D9A4 bellsouth.net>
References: <v01530500b421a664baae [12.21.211.193]>
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Terry Blanton wrote:

>The really interesting thing is, that the personal automobile
>accounts for only 1/3 of our pollution problem.

I have seen this statistic lately, but I have doubts about it. Do you have
an original source for this? I'll look around on web next week.

I expect that in metro Atlanta the automobile accounts for a much higher
fraction. Perhaps in the country as a whole is is only 1/3, when you
include industrial and farm districts. I think energy as a whole accounts
for about 75% of air polution. That includes automobiles, aircraft, power
plants, and so on, but not chemical factories. I am not sure which category
blast furnaces fall into. Nowadays a lot of steel is produced at
electrically fired minimills.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  7 13:00:38 1999
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Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:49:05 -0700
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Some properties of the Nylon polymers

 http://www.plasticsusa.com/pa.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  7 13:57:24 1999
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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 10:55:21 -1000
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Monofilament is wound onto spools and has twist in it too. Haven't any of 
you ever been fishing?

For the experiment, I suggest annealing some monofilament in the oven at
around 165 - 180 degrees F.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


> Some properties of the Nylon polymers
>
>  http://www.plasticsusa.com/pa.html
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  7 14:21:43 1999
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
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At 10:55 AM 10/7/99 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote:
>Monofilament is wound onto spools and has twist in it too. Haven't any of 
>you ever been fishing?
>
>For the experiment, I suggest annealing some monofilament in the oven at
>around 165 - 180 degrees F.
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI
>
>
>> Some properties of the Nylon polymers
>>
>>  http://www.plasticsusa.com/pa.html


  Although still waiting to see some data on this subject,
or ZPE in general, some of this has given me a chuckle.

The matter of crosslinking is VERY interesting. In 
people, and chickens, lack of copper (induced by eating
certain foods such as chick peas) causes lathyrism.
No copper. No crosslinking of collagen. No integrity of the skin,
tendons, or bone.  In a child with the disease, the
skin can be inadvertantly ripped off by the reasonably
terrified parents.

  When the effect is shown in a science fair type 
exhibit (before such things were disallowed)-
a chickens neck or leg would be pulled apart by
a force which could be shown to linearly decreases 
with the amount of chickpea material injected into
the egg. (material = beta-aminoproprionitrile)

  Dont try this at home. And remind pregnant women
to avoid chickpeas.

    Mitchell Swartz

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Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?
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Rick wrote:
>
> Haven't any of you ever been fishing?
>
I have, and spent most of my time untangling tackle, or
removing hooks from my fingers. I find that a can of tuna
or some frozen fish sticks are cheaper.  :-)

Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>
> Although still waiting to see some data on this subject,
> or ZPE in general, some of this has given me a chuckle.
>
Apparently you are unaware of the Pickle Jars sitting in the Sun
on a windowsill in Moscow a couple of years ago,that exploded
and shook several city blocks?  

This either non-rotational Glass Jar ZPE, or Light Lepton-Hydrino 
formation catalyzed by Potassium Acetate (CH3-CO-O- + K+) ions
from the 3.1  (0.4 ev)to 6.2  (0.2 ev) Micron infrared solar photons.

Think about it.   :-)

Regards,      Frederick

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Subject: Re: Glass Jar ZPE Motor?  Canning Quick-pack Dill Pickles
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Canning Quick-pack Dill Pickles
Michigan State University Extension=20
Preserving Food Safely - 01600865=20
08/25/99=20

Canning Quick-pack Dill Pickles=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

GUIDE 6:20                                                 =20
QUICK FRESH-PACK DILL PICKLES                              =20


8 lbs of 3- to 5-inch pickling cucumbers                   =20
2 gals water                                               =20
1-1/4 cups canning or pickling salt                        =20
1-1/2 qts vinegar (5%)                                     =20
1/4 cup sugar                                              =20
2 quarts water                                             =20
2 tbsp whole mixed pickling spice                          =20
3 tbsp whole mustard seed (2 tsp to 1 tsp per pint jar)    =20
14 heads of fresh dill (1-1/2 heads per pint jar) or       =20
4-1/2 tbsp dill seed (1-1/2 tsp per pint jar)              =20


YIELD:  7 to 9 pints                                       =20


PROCEDURE:  Wash cucumbers. Cut 1/16-inch slice off        =20
blossom end and discard, but leave 1/4-inch of stem        =20
attached. Dissolve 3/4 cup salt in 2 gals water. Pour      =20
over cucumbers and let stand 12 hours. Drain. Combine      =20
vinegar, 1/2 cup salt, sugar, and 2 quarts water. Add      =20
mixed pickling spices tied in a clean white cloth. Heat    =20
to boiling. Fill jars with cucumbers. Add 1 tsp mustard    =20
seed and 1-1/2 heads fresh dill per pint. Cover with       =20
boiling pickling solution, leaving 1/2-inch headspace.     =20
Adjust lids and process as below or use the low-           =20
temperature pasteurization treatment.                      =20


LOW TEMPERATURE PASTEURIZATION TREATMENT:  The following   =20
treatment results in a better product texture but must be  =20
carefully managed to avoid possible spoilage. Place jars   =20
in a canner filled half way with warm (120-140 degrees F)  =20
water. Then, add hot water to a level 1 inch above jars.   =20
Heat the water enough to maintain 180-185 degree F water   =20
temperature for 30 minutes. Check with a candy or jelly    =20
thermometer to be certain that the water temperature is    =20
at least 180 degrees F during the entire 30 minutes.       =20
Temperatures higher than 185 degrees F may cause           =20
unnecessary softening of pickles. CAUTION:  Use only when  =20
recipe indicates.                                          =20


Recommended process time for QUICK FRESH-PACK DILL         =20
PICKLES in a boiling-water canner                          =20


                  Process Time at Altitudes of             =20


Style     Jar     0-          1,001-       Above           =20
of Pack   Size    1,000 ft    6,000 ft     6,000 ft        =20


Raw       Pints   10 min      15           20              =20
          Quarts  15          20           25              =20



Go To Top of File        Michigan State University Extension Home Page   =
     Main Page for this Data Base=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
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to MSU Extension. Reprinting cannot be used to endorse or advertise a =
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http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://www.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/mod01/01600865.html>
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<P align=3Dright><FONT size=3D3>Michigan State University Extension =
</FONT><BR><FONT=20
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name=3DTOC></A>
<H3>Canning Quick-pack Dill Pickles </H3>
<HR>
<PRE>GUIDE 6:20                                                 =20
QUICK FRESH-PACK DILL PICKLES                              =20
</PRE>
<P><PRE>8 lbs of 3- to 5-inch pickling cucumbers                   =20
2 gals water                                               =20
1-1/4 cups canning or pickling salt                        =20
1-1/2 qts vinegar (5%)                                     =20
1/4 cup sugar                                              =20
2 quarts water                                             =20
2 tbsp whole mixed pickling spice                          =20
3 tbsp whole mustard seed (2 tsp to 1 tsp per pint jar)    =20
14 heads of fresh dill (1-1/2 heads per pint jar) or       =20
4-1/2 tbsp dill seed (1-1/2 tsp per pint jar)              =20
</PRE>
<P><PRE>YIELD:  7 to 9 pints                                       =20
</PRE>
<P><PRE>PROCEDURE:  Wash cucumbers. Cut 1/16-inch slice off        =20
blossom end and discard, but leave 1/4-inch of stem        =20
attached. Dissolve 3/4 cup salt in 2 gals water. Pour      =20
over cucumbers and let stand 12 hours. Drain. Combine      =20
vinegar, 1/2 cup salt, sugar, and 2 quarts water. Add      =20
mixed pickling spices tied in a clean white cloth. Heat    =20
to boiling. Fill jars with cucumbers. Add 1 tsp mustard    =20
seed and 1-1/2 heads fresh dill per pint. Cover with       =20
boiling pickling solution, leaving 1/2-inch headspace.     =20
Adjust lids and process as below or use the low-           =20
temperature pasteurization treatment.                      =20
</PRE>
<P><PRE>LOW TEMPERATURE PASTEURIZATION TREATMENT:  The following   =20
treatment results in a better product texture but must be  =20
carefully managed to avoid possible spoilage. Place jars   =20
in a canner filled half way with warm (120-140 degrees F)  =20
water. Then, add hot water to a level 1 inch above jars.   =20
Heat the water enough to maintain 180-185 degree F water   =20
temperature for 30 minutes. Check with a candy or jelly    =20
thermometer to be certain that the water temperature is    =20
at least 180 degrees F during the entire 30 minutes.       =20
Temperatures higher than 185 degrees F may cause           =20
unnecessary softening of pickles. CAUTION:  Use only when  =20
recipe indicates.                                          =20
</PRE>
<P><PRE>Recommended process time for QUICK FRESH-PACK DILL         =20
PICKLES in a boiling-water canner                          =20
</PRE>
<P><PRE>                  Process Time at Altitudes of             =20
</PRE>
<P><PRE>Style     Jar     0-          1,001-       Above           =20
of Pack   Size    1,000 ft    6,000 ft     6,000 ft        =20
</PRE>
<P><PRE>Raw       Pints   10 min      15           20              =20
          Quarts  15          20           25              =20
</PRE>
<P><PRE></PRE>
<H5><A href=3D"#TOC">Go To Top of File =
</A>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A=20
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  7 18:47:27 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:43:07 EDT
Subject: Re: Mills at ACS Meeting?
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Akira,

How were the presentations that Mills and his colleagues gave yesterday 
(Wednesday afternoon) received?

How many people attended?

Tom Stolper

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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:43:05 EDT
Subject: Huggins on Alternatives to tungsten in glow discharge
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In a message dated 10/7/99 3:14:19 AM, rhg techfak.uni-kiel.de [Bob Huggins] 
wrote the following, adding that he had no objection to my putting his 
comments here:

<< I have no reason to think that molydenum would be much different from 
tungsten,

although there may be some difference in mechanical durability if the 
molydenum

is more ductile, as is often the case. The melting points of the pure 
materials

are significantly different: 3422 °C for W, and 2623 °C for Mo. They are

completely miscible, and the melting point of the 50/50 composition is 
slightly

less than 3100 °C.>>

A day earlier, he commented, re tungsten or nichrome as cathodes:

<<If it operates at any reasonable power level, under the extreme conditions
of the underwater arc, the cathode gets very hot.

Regular welding grade tungsten wire does not last very long if it is bare.
Perhaps it could be cooled, as is done in TIG welding equipment. That should
certainly be tried.

Since the melting point of nichrome is not extremely high, I would expect it
to melt unless it is very well cooled, perhaps by flowing water on the back
side.>>

Jed, how about an answer re the durability of 50%W-50%Mo?  You seem to have 
time to discuss other things.

Tom Stolper





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From: "R. Wormus" <rwormus lock-load.com>
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Subject: Re: Mills at ACS Meeting?
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Tom,
Abstracts and a press release are up on the BLP home page.
Ron

On 07-Oct-99, Tstolper aol.com wrote:
T> Akira,
T> 
T> How were the presentations that Mills and his colleagues gave yesterday 
T> (Wednesday afternoon) received?
T> 
T> How many people attended?
T> 
T> Tom Stolper
T> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  7 19:37:20 1999
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During work yesterday afternoon, alpha beta gamma readings rose from normal
background of 42 with 1 std dev up to 47 for 3 hours and then returned to
normal.  alpha beta monitor remained unchanged during same period.

Suspect gamma emission from cloud from Japanese reactors


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  7 21:11:11 1999
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Force Fields
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Jim,

I haven't been in at the beginning of this thread or whatever lead to it, so
my comments might be irrelevant.

1. If the purpose of the capacitors is to get 180 deg phasing, then this is
the hard way. The easy way is to take out the capacitor and reverse the
connections to the appropriate coils. Since the impedance of one branch of
the circuit is now changed, you will probably have to adjust the number of
turns to get the desired currents and magnetic fields.

2. The capacitor is probably also used to cancel the inductive reactance
(i.e. tune the circuit). However, I do not see how this improves the
performacne of the levitator. All it does is improve the power factor seen by
the utility. This is a small issue, since you will be a small load on the
power line.

3. The device illustrated in the gif is just an induction (eddy current)
levitator, much like any other. It works by I x B force on the metal plate,
where I is induced by the time-varying B, which in turn is generated by the
coil. The distribution of coils in a well designed system has to do with
stability (e.g. so the plate will not fall off to one side) and efficiency.
What's the special interest? Back c. 1970 I ran a small project to levitate
molten metal---a much harder task, because liquid drains through weak and/or
unstable regions in the magnetic field.


=====
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  7 22:19:13 1999
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At 09:06 PM 10/7/99 -0700, Michael Schaffer wrote:
>3. The device illustrated in the gif is just an induction (eddy current)
>levitator, much like any other. It works by I x B force on the metal plate,
>where I is induced by the time-varying B, which in turn is generated by the
>coil. The distribution of coils in a well designed system has to do with
>stability (e.g. so the plate will not fall off to one side) and efficiency.
>What's the special interest? Back c. 1970 I ran a small project to levitate
>molten metal---a much harder task, because liquid drains through weak and/or
>unstable regions in the magnetic field.


  Michael:

   Was that with a longitudinal electrical current, through molten tin, for
supporting glass, with Jim, perhaps? If so, that was much easier
to solve with the Maxwell stress tensor, if memory serves.
 
    Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  7 23:21:48 1999
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David Dennard wrote;

>You asked earlier if I knew of Russel's work.  Not really. Someone mentioned
>him to me recently and said it was similar.  I have not actually seen it yet
>but from what I understand he had a concept of density that is similar to
>mine.
>
>David
>
Russell had the idea of centrifical and centripital vortexs which condensed
energy into matter and expanded matter into energy. He believed in God who
not only created but sustained the universe. This flow of energy, which
makes this possible, sounds a lot like the ZPE to me.

At the second INE conference some researchers reported having replicated
his bulk elemental transmutation machine which got my undivided attention.
Unfortunately one of the researchers, Toby Grotz, recently told me that the
results were inconclusive.

He also designed an energy machine with conical coils.

If you want to know more go to http://www.philosophy.org the site for the
organization that Russell founded and
http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/8989 This site has a representation
of Russell's spiral periodic table which I really like. The curves, which
look like a snake, coils around a hemisphere.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  7 23:53:46 1999
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Michael Schaffer wrote:
> 
> Jim,
> 
> I haven't been in at the beginning of this thread or whatever lead to it, so
> my comments might be irrelevant.

What you read was the initial article on the subject of "force fields".
The text describing the operating principles of this levitator was
adapted from Physics Demonstration Experiments Volume 2 Edited by Harry
F Meiners (Ronald Press, 1970).
Your comments are always welcome and relevant, Michael.  

> 1. If the purpose of the capacitors is to get 180 deg phasing, then this is
> the hard way.

Whoever designed this was quire clever in my opinion if it warks as
indicated. What is easy for some people may be hard for others, just
because of the way different individuals go about their different ways
of solving a problem or inventing something.
Whatever the situation this device apparently impressed Meiners, so
that's good enough for me.
 
> The easy way is to take out the capacitor and reverse the
> connections to the appropriate coils. Since the impedance of one branch of
> the circuit is now changed, you will probably have to adjust the number of
> turns to get the desired currents and magnetic fields.
> 

Well, If I knew what the "desired" currents and magnetic fields were I
could probably design my own levitator. The fact is this is the only
article on the subject that I have. 

> 2. The capacitor is probably also used to cancel the inductive reactance
> (i.e. tune the circuit). However, I do not see how this improves the
> performacne of the levitator. All it does is improve the power factor seen by
> the utility. This is a small issue, since you will be a small load on the
> power line.

I am not convinced that this would be just a "small issue". The less
power consumed by the circuit the less heat there will be, and can only
be a good thing for any magnetic device's efficency and a bad thing for
the power company (because they will be getting less money from me per
hour that the device is used). 

> 
> 3. The device illustrated in the gif is just an induction (eddy current)
> levitator, much like any other. 

How many others are you aware of? You make it sound like I can go and
pick one up at Wal-Mart instead of going to the trouble of building one.
If you can point me to where I can read up on the subject shopping for
eddy current levitators, please enlighten me. 
If you know of any bargains yourself I'm all ears!

>It works by I x B force on the metal plate,
> where I is induced by the time-varying B, which in turn is generated by the
> coil. The distribution of coils in a well designed system has to do with
> stability (e.g. so the plate will not fall off to one side) and efficiency.

Well here you just said efficiency so it appears to me that you are now
saying that power factor is NOT a "small issue" in a good design. You
aren't trying to confuse me, are you, Michael? 

But yes, it appears the shape and thickness of the pan is an important
consideration as well. 

> What's the special interest?

I am interested in force fields and what other effects they might
produce besides levitating metals, if any.

> Back c. 1970 I ran a small project to levitate
> molten metal---a much harder task, because liquid drains through weak and/or
> unstable regions in the magnetic field.

Now with this I _am_ impressed! Do you have the schematic and
construction details for THAT system? I'll pay for postage and handling
if you wouldn't mind sending them to me. 
If you do that I will do my best to transcribe any artwork to gif format
and post it here so we can all benefit from such knowledge as you would
care to impart. 

I will contact you offline with my address, which I prefer not to
broadcast on vortex.

Jim Ostrowski
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  8 06:33:56 1999
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Subject: Re: Huggins on Alternatives to tungsten in glow discharge
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Tom Stolper wrote:

>Jed, how about an answer re the durability of 50%W-50%Mo?  You seem to have 
>time to discuss other things.

Sorry, I do not know anything about this.

- Jed

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Dear Fred, 
	I missed the spinning pin post....
	Can you please send it again?

It's hard enough following some of these topical threads, and when you add 
twisted threads as the topic of discussion.  Well it get's my little pin 
head to spinning. %-<;^)

Speaking of spinning pins, did you see Fred's post on dropping a pin 
towards the end of a bar magnet and watching it spin?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  8 07:04:01 1999
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To: Tom Stolper <Tstolper aol.com>, Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Did you find the right EUV stuff?Re: EUV Fluorescent Glasses
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	Tom?

	Did you find the right EUV stuff?

On Wed, 6 Oct 1999 Tstolper aol.com wrote:

> Interesting suggestion, Fred.  If a cell using a container made of that kind 
> of EUV-fluorescent Pyrex O-54 worked, it might be a pretty sight.  But it 
> might be necessary to use glass fibers, as you suggested.  The reaction might 
> only take place around the cathode, and water is opaque to EUV, so the fibers 
> might have to be very close to the cathode.
> 
> Tom Stolper
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  8 07:12:24 1999
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	Dear Ron,

	Can you please give some examples of the materials which show
minute regions of superconductivity .. and how it was measured?

	Thanks,

		J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  8 16:14:52 1999
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Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:19:31 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Search engine anomaly?  8^)
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Though Google is a fantastic new search engine, it seems to have an
anomaly.  Check out the first entry obtained by the search:


  <http://www.google.com/search?q=more+evil+than+satan+himself>


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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At 03:19 PM 10/8/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Though Google is a fantastic new search engine, it seems to have an
>anomaly.  Check out the first entry obtained by the search:
>
>
>  <http://www.google.com/search?q=more+evil+than+satan+himself>

Wow.  I discovered that just searching for "more evil" will do the trick.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  8 19:04:49 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 22:01:45 EDT
Subject: Huggins on Alternatives to tungsten in glow discharge
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An additional comment by Bob Huggins, on Oct. 6, 1999, that I forgot to post:

"What is clearly needed is a steady state experiment that lasts for an
appreciable time."

I think we can all agree that this would be highly desirable.  That said, I 
think that 1000 seconds of excess energy at a typical power gain of almost 2 
is an impressive start.

Jed Rothwell reported on Fri, 17 Sep 1999 14:35:56 -0400 that "Glow discharge 
tungsten cathodes disintegrate into small pieces, presumably because of the 
heat and electrolysis loading pressure. They do not oxidize, they crumble 
into pieces."

Bob, is molybdenum really almost as brittle?  I thought that molybdenum had a 
reputation as a much tougher metal.  And how much hydrogen would either metal 
absorb?

Tom Stolper

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No, I thought you might know.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  8 19:40:12 1999
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	EUV,

	Best bet is diamond dust, use 2,000 mesh to 100,00 nr Practically
   nothing else will work equally well. 

	A 1 gram lot costs about 10 to 15 dollars.....
rub it really hard into clean surface and it will be embedded.

	Most lapidary and some hobby shops will carry thi


On Fri, 8 Oct 1999 Tstolper aol.com wrote:

> No, I thought you might know.
> 
> Tom Stolper
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  8 20:11:17 1999
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WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 8 Oct 99   Washington, DC

1. CTBT I: PHYSICS NOBELISTS LEAD THE PUSH FOR THE TEST BAN.  A
letter signed by 32 physics Nobel laureates calling ratification
of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty "imperative," was delivered
to every member of the Senate on Tuesday.  The letter, organized
by APS President Jerome Friedman, called the treaty "central to
future efforts to halt the spread of nuclear weapons."  The
Nobelists had been sitting on the letter for a year, waiting for
some sign of activity in the Senate.  On Wednesday, eight of them
were present at the White House to join President Clinton and the
Joint Chiefs of Staff in urging ratification.  Charles Townes
spoke eloquently for the physicists.  Nevertheless, the 67 Senate
votes needed to ratify simply are not there.  

2. CTBT II: POLITICS PUSHES THE SENATE TOWARD THE BRINK. Debate
on the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty began today.  If the Senate
votes next Tuesday on ratification, as scheduled, the treaty will
almost certainly be rejected, perhaps ending any hope of limiting
the spread of nuclear weapons.  It will be rejected, not because
of flaws in the treaty, but because both parties are seeking
political advantage.  Republicans are determined that credit for
the treaty not go to President Clinton; Democrats see a powerful
campaign issue if Republicans kill the treaty.  Only two days are
allocated to debate what is arguably the most important treaty in
history, compared to the 25 days spent debating impeachment. 
Surely "the world's greatest deliberative body" can do better. 
In this afternoon's debate, John Warner (R-VA), Chair of Armed
Services, and Carl Levin (D-MI), Ranking Member, are calling for
a delay in the vote to avoid certain defeat. 

3. CTBT III: AMERICA'S ALLIES URGE RATIFICATION.  Today's New
York Times ran a remarkable op-ed signed by Jacques Chirac, Tony
Blair and Gerhard Schroder.  The final paragraph says it all:
"The United States and its allies have worked side by side for a
Comprehensive Test Ban since the days of President Eisenhower. 
This goal is now within our grasp.  Our security is involved, as
well as America's.  For the security of the world we will leave
to our children, we urge the United States to ratify the treaty." 

4. CTBT IV: SEISMOLOGISTS SAY COMPLIANCE CAN BE MONITORED.  A
statement released Wednesday by the American Geophysical Union
and the Seismological Society of America expressed confidence
that the combined worldwide monitoring resources provided for
under the treaty, including 170 seismic stations, will meet the
treaty's verification goals. A CIA report leaked over the weekend
expressed doubt that the CIA could detect violations, which is
almost certainly true--the CIA seems to have trouble detecting a
lot of things. The treaty, however, establishes an International
Monitoring System.  As the President pointed out, the world will
detect far more tests with the treaty than without it. 

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  8 20:48:00 1999
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Oct.  8, 1999

Vortex,

> How were the presentations that Mills and his colleagues gave yesterday
> (Wednesday afternoon) received?
>

Room 100A was quartered into 1/4 its full size before the presentation
began. So the seating capacity shrunk down to 40.During the afternoon
presentation, the seating was full with some in and outs occurring. Among
the recognizable faces, Fleischmann, Miles, Talbot, George, Dash, were
there.
The audience were properly receptive to the presentation. There was one
point where Mill's position on Quantum Mechanics not being satisfactory for
his Hysrino theory was criticized by Talbot.
The presentations were mostly Mill's, with other staff research workers
reporting on data results obtained.
There was one speaker from Germany who supported Mill's Hydrino results.
Mills presented some chemical products derived from his Hydrino process.
They had identical chemical components  as a regular chemical compound BUT
had different physical characteristics. For instance a metal "poly hydride"
which was stable to 650 C, flexible, and magnetic.
Results where extreme ultraviolet emissions occurred with the K2CO3
reaction was covered.
To be frank, the whole presentation was good, but over my head ---- anyway
I was too busy
recording.  Whether those in attendance believed Mills is another matter.
I'll have to review his presentation again as I busy myself  making copies.

Mills, Miley and others requested copies.

-ak-


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  8 22:02:45 1999
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Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:59:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Force Fields
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Mitchell Swartz asked:

>   Was that with a longitudinal electrical current, through molten tin, for
>supporting glass, with Jim, perhaps? If so, that was much easier
>to solve with the Maxwell stress tensor, if memory serves.

   The above problem is not the levitation work I referred to. However, I
worked on the glass-float problem for a couple of weeks for Jim (Prof.
Melcher, my thesis advisor, for those of you who do not know) when I finished
up.

   Of course, I learned Maxwell stress tensor as an undergrad at MIT, and I
apply it where it is the most convenient way to solve a problem. 

   In the current-tin-glass system, the main problem that I saw is that the
electromagnetic force (J x B) acting on the tin is not uniform, but has a
non-zero curl. Therefore, it cannot be exactly balanced by a static pressure
gradient in a fluid. Thus, the unbalanced part of the force drove a rather
vigorous convection in the tin, which would cause ripples in the glass
floating on top, which is undesireable for the manufacture of sheet glass.
The design problem is to get a good approximation to a uniform force. This
requires numerical computation to solve first for the current distribution,
then for B and finally for the force. The direct J x B calculation is easier
in this case than the Maxwell stress tensor calculation, because both J and B
are already available.

=====
Michael J. Schaffer


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  8 23:22:12 1999
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Force Fields
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>>3. The device illustrated in the gif is just an induction (eddy current)
>>levitator, much like any other. 
>
>How many others are you aware of? You make it sound like I can go and
>pick one up at Wal-Mart instead of going to the trouble of building one.
>If you can point me to where I can read up on the subject shopping for
>eddy current levitators, please enlighten me. 
>If you know of any bargains yourself I'm all ears!

   The first papers on liquid metal levitators date to the 1950s and descibe
two-coil levitators of the sort I descibe in another post today. The purpose
was to levitate small quantities of liquid metal, especially refractory
metal, free from contact with crucible material. I am not even sure if some
scientific instrument company builds such levitators or not.

   The inductive 'jumping ring' science demonstration might be available from
science education and hobby sources. It works on the same principle. You can
demonstrate the Lens' law inductive repulsion with a home made Cu ring or
washer held above a coil carrying AC current. It will probably not levitate
stably---the ring will tend to fall off to one side, unless you make a bowl
shaped levitated object and use a coil whose diameter is a bit larger than
the bowl's. I would guess that there is no "off the shelf" metal bowl
levitator for sale. But I saw one on a science TV show in the 1950s when I
was a kid.

[snip]
>Back c. 1970 I ran a small project to levitate
>>molten metal---a much harder task, because liquid drains through weak
>and/or
>>unstable regions in the magnetic field.
>
>Now with this I _am_ impressed! Do you have the schematic and
>construction details for THAT system? I'll pay for postage and handling
>if you wouldn't mind sending them to me. 
>If you do that I will do my best to transcribe any artwork to gif format
>and post it here so we can all benefit from such knowledge as you would
>care to impart. 

I still have a copy (paper, of ocurse) of the university research report I
wrote summarizing my levitation development work. I will send you a copy, if
you tell me a mailing address.

=====
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  9 04:25:18 1999
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Mills' Hydrino: Fractional Orbit Electrons or Neutrinos?
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 05:20:50 -0700
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If the neutrino/antineutrino has Phase/Charge y = cos x wrt regular
Phase/Charge y = sin x, it is the neutrinos that are forming what
Mills calls His "Fractional  Orbit Hydrino" and the related 
"Hydrino Hydride" compounds.

Neutrino/Antineutrino Pairs with a rest mass of 0.1 to 0.2 ev should be 
formed at <1,000 deg K, ie., 2898 Micron Degrees/3.1 Microns
equal 934.8 deg K (3.1 Microns = a 0.4 ev IR photon) or
2898 Micron Degrees/6.2 Microns = 467.4 deg K (a 0.2 ev IR photon).

Superposition of Phase/Charge between the Neutrino/Antineutrino
Phase/Charge and that of Protons and/or Electrons readily confirms
Mills' "Hydrino Hydride" experimental results, without rewriting
Quantum Physics.

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  9 08:14:44 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Honda hybrid electric vehicle
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The Atlanta Journal reports that the Honda Insight hybrid gasoline -
electric automobile will be sold in the U.S. before the end of this year.
It goes on sale in Japan in November. There is a little information about
it at:

http://www.hondainsight.com/homepage.html

This is a two-seat automobile with power windows, dual air bags, etc. It
has a 1.0-liter, three cylinder engine and a nickel metal hydride battery
system. Fuel efficiency is 61 mpg city, 70 mpg highway. One tank of gas
will go 700 miles. It will be priced at "less than $20,000." (Maybe $19,999?)

They expect to sell 4,000 per year. I predict they will sell a lot more
than that.

Toyota will begin selling a hybrid car in the U.S. next year, the Prius,
which is "slightly larger than a Corolla compact car." The cost will be
$20,000.

Here is a good article about hybrids: V. Wouk, "Hybrid Electric Vehicles,"
Scientific American, October 1997, p. 70. Wouk is an automotive engineer
who has designed and built a series of prototype hybrid electric vehicles
beginning in the early 1970s.

This technology would be easily adapted to cold fusion or other exotic
energy sources.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  9 09:13:10 1999
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Michael Schaffer wrote:

> 
> I still have a copy (paper, of ocurse) of the university research report I
> wrote summarizing my levitation development work. I will send you a copy, if
> you tell me a mailing address.

Will do. Thank you Michael.

 Anyway as you may have guessed from my original post the interest in
"force fields"
stems from the alleged Philadelphia Experiment which was supposed to
have caused a Navy ship to vanish and teleport during WW2. A good friend
of mine is obsessed with this topic and there are some interesting
websites which make it evident that the controversy is still very much
alive. The latest scoop is about an experiment that can be done with 
something called "diffraction film". I'm still trying to gather the
relevant details of the experiment and I'll post what I find out under
the subject "re: Force Fields" here.

For the benefit of vortexers interested:

There is a message board site with the most recent yax on the subject
at: 

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Labyrinth/9378/

And the "diffraction film" experiment, along with an image, which I just
mentioned is discussed briefly amongst other related material at: 

 http://www.viewzone.com/philadelphia.html

There is also mention of a Sandia Laboratories photo of a small
"particle accelerator" floating in water, generating a "green fog"
taken  from "Physics: Volume 2" with frustratingly no mention made of
the author's or publisher's name...

More later as I can find time...

Cheers,

Jim Ostrowski





> 
> =====
> Michael J. Schaffer
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  9 11:30:06 1999
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Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:35:41 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mills' Hydrino: Fractional Orbit Electrons or Neutrinos?
Cc: <Ron.Brodzinski pnl.gov>
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At 5:20 AM 10/9/99, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>If the neutrino/antineutrino has Phase/Charge y = cos x wrt regular
>Phase/Charge y = sin x, it is the neutrinos that are forming what
>Mills calls His "Fractional  Orbit Hydrino" and the related
>"Hydrino Hydride" compounds.
>
>Neutrino/Antineutrino Pairs with a rest mass of 0.1 to 0.2 ev should be
>formed at <1,000 deg K, ie., 2898 Micron Degrees/3.1 Microns
>equal 934.8 deg K (3.1 Microns = a 0.4 ev IR photon) or
>2898 Micron Degrees/6.2 Microns = 467.4 deg K (a 0.2 ev IR photon).
>
>Superposition of Phase/Charge between the Neutrino/Antineutrino
>Phase/Charge and that of Protons and/or Electrons readily confirms
>Mills' "Hydrino Hydride" experimental results, without rewriting
>Quantum Physics.

How does such a superposition do that?  How is it that such a
superposition, if it exists, is stable?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  9 12:19:43 1999
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Walter Russell's Cosmogony
Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 12:18:54 PDT
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Thomas writes:

>Russell had the idea of centrifical and centripital vortexs which condensed
>energy into matter and expanded matter into energy. He believed in God who
>not only created but sustained the universe. This flow of energy, which
>makes this possible, sounds a lot like the ZPE to me.

Sounds like Whirlpower Cosmology to me.  Once science realizes that gravity 
repels light, "The Fizz in the Physics", then science will see the new 
"Electron Star", the "Starseed" the most dense object in the Infinite 
Universe.  That is the real "light weaver" that turns energy back into 
matter.

But we see very little interest in my thoughts on this list.  I just hope 
Jean-Louis will follow through and build the world's first whirlpool to be 
tested scientifically.  There a guy on my list doing it now, he says.  The 
data may be just around the curve!  But I have learned time and time again 
not to hold my breath.  Supposedly there are number of whirlpools being 
built in several parts of the world, as I type.  I wonder who will actually 
do it first.

I am going to check out more of Walter's work.  It is obvious that the 
scientists that don't believe in God have been writing science fiction for a 
very long time.

We are approaching "The Crossroads" of our civilization.  I think God is 
giving us a chance to go the right way and chose the poorest person  in 
America to bring the message.

"In sackcloth and ashes" the Phoenix stands and says "RESTORE"!

David

______________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  9 13:04:49 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Subject: Re: Mills at ACS Meeting?
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Ron, got it, thanks.  

Very interesting material.  Splendid portrait photo of Mills in the biography 
of him on the BLP website.  

Publication in the INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF HYDROGEN ENERGY would be another 
breakthrough for Mills.  I wonder if PHYSICAL REVIEW will accept the paper 
he's submitted there.

Akira, thanks for the report of the session.  How many high-quality videotape 
copies of the session can you make?  Was there a question & answer period 
after the presentations, or after each individual presentation?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  9 13:43:27 1999
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Subject: Re: Mills' Hydrino: Fractional Orbit Electrons or Neutrinos?
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <Ron.Brodzinski pnl.gov>
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 1999 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: Mills' Hydrino: Fractional Orbit Electrons or Neutrinos?

Horace wrote:
 Snip
> 
> How does such a superposition do that?  How is it that such a
> superposition, if it exists, is stable?

Superposition between  a neutrino  and a proton or electron is merely
the difference of  Phase/Chargewhich will affect the force, F = k*q1*q2/R^2

Where q1 = f (cos x)  and q2 = f(sin x) with allowance made for the
frequencies of q1 and q2 and R is the separation of the charges.

Thus a "neutrino" with rest mass of 0.1 or 0.2 ev is "orbiting" in
one of the "fractional orbits" atvery close to c, with a relativistic
mass, Mrel = Mo[(Eorbit/Eo) + 1]  with it's Affinity
for the Proton or Deuteron or Potassium "orbited" by a neutrino,
the electron's interaction can explain the "Hydrino Hydide" compound
formation.

It isn't out of the relm of possibility that some of this could be the
result of the 3-4E10/cm^2 Solar neutrino flux. IOW OU/CF
is a Solar Neutrino Detector.   :-)

Regards,    Frederick
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  9 13:55:55 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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Subject: balance ... non balance
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a]	The whirl pool can be thought of as a balanced system and maybe it
can be thought of as having a non balance mode.
	Please consider the citations listed below and the real world
flowing water system used by industry.
	If the rider in k 

	A whirl pool with a smooth load and surfaces is  thought of
as a wheel which is in balance: [1]
	Careful set up and  protection from imbalance can result in
smooth operation.  Sound spokes and balance  are vital to
efficient and stable operation. [2]

	If for some reason the wheel becomes lop sided or out of balance
then the extra distances traveled by the rim displacemt, often called
"wobble" use up extra energy. The bigger the system and load of tge system
the quicker the whole lose energy and speed.

	When two wheels of the same type are examined and one is true
and the other is lop sided this becomes clear, the out of true wheel slows
down first..  Many children that have fixed their own bicycles know this.

			[3]

 [1] New Age Association

Npye Whtitp 1964 

 [2]  Balance Ratios #4

0
Acrup Sthouy
	Bicycle Handbook 1954


rhw
WO5v5hd snilert




















































	The whirl pool analogy or odd behavior 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  9 14:42:07 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mills' Hydrino: Fractional Orbit Electrons or Neutrinos?
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At 2:38 PM 10/9/99, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Superposition between  a neutrino  and a proton or electron is merely
>the difference of  Phase/Chargewhich will affect the force, F = k*q1*q2/R^2
>
>Where q1 = f (cos x)  and q2 = f(sin x) with allowance made for the
>frequencies of q1 and q2 and R is the separation of the charges.
>
>Thus a "neutrino" with rest mass of 0.1 or 0.2 ev is "orbiting" in
>one of the "fractional orbits" atvery close to c, with a relativistic
>mass, Mrel = Mo[(Eorbit/Eo) + 1]  with it's Affinity
>for the Proton or Deuteron or Potassium "orbited" by a neutrino,
>the electron's interaction can explain the "Hydrino Hydide" compound
>formation.
>
>It isn't out of the relm of possibility that some of this could be the
>result of the 3-4E10/cm^2 Solar neutrino flux. IOW OU/CF
>is a Solar Neutrino Detector.   :-)


What is the natue of the function f?  Won't f average to zero as time --> inf?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: Mills' Hydrino: Fractional Orbit Electrons or Neutrinos?
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----- Original Message -----
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 1999 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: Mills' Hydrino: Fractional Orbit Electrons or Neutrinos?

Do some work, Horace. If the frequency and phase are conjugate
the particles annihilate.

Fred


> At 2:38 PM 10/9/99, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >Superposition between  a neutrino  and a proton or electron is merely
> >the difference of  Phase/Chargewhich will affect the force, F =
k*q1*q2/R^2
> >
> >Where q1 = f (cos x)  and q2 = f(sin x) with allowance made for the
> >frequencies of q1 and q2 and R is the separation of the charges.
> >
> >Thus a "neutrino" with rest mass of 0.1 or 0.2 ev is "orbiting" in
> >one of the "fractional orbits" atvery close to c, with a relativistic
> >mass, Mrel = Mo[(Eorbit/Eo) + 1]  with it's Affinity
> >for the Proton or Deuteron or Potassium "orbited" by a neutrino,
> >the electron's interaction can explain the "Hydrino Hydide" compound
> >formation.
> >
> >It isn't out of the relm of possibility that some of this could be the
> >result of the 3-4E10/cm^2 Solar neutrino flux. IOW OU/CF
> >is a Solar Neutrino Detector.   :-)
>
>
> What is the natue of the function f?  Won't f average to zero as time -->
inf?
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  9 15:24:34 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Honda hybrid electric vehicle
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 18:31:20 -0400
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>The Atlanta Journal reports that the Honda Insight hybrid gasoline -
>electric automobile will be sold in the U.S. before the end of this year.
>It goes on sale in Japan in November. There is a little information about
>it at:
>
>http://www.hondainsight.com/homepage.html

With that kind of gas milage and price, that should be a big winner I would
think. Not bad looking, either.  Looks like you can park it in a shoebox
too, which is nice in crowded cities.  I hope they sell a million of them.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  9 15:43:54 1999
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Sept. 9, 1999

Tom,

>How many high-quality videotape copies of the session can you make?

I am set up to make an occasional copy or so. So I am not inclined to make a
production out of making many copies. I am lazy about tedious work anyway.
However, I will be making copies needed to help publicise and advance the CF
effort in cooperation with others.

>Was there a question & answer period after the presentations,
>or after each individual presentation?

Not too much. The individual presenters had a certain amount of English
promouncing accents that may have hindered understanding everything that was
said. And those data on the screen with hardly enough time to absorb them ---
sort of like a flash card session with those overhead projection systems still
being used.

Any detailed or leading questions to Mills were handled in a 'diplomatic way'
with nothing given away that would satisfy a critical scientist --- as I heard
later.

However in his summary speech, he invited everybody to do research with his
Hydrino theory in mind. To use the three tools he used to reach the conclusions
and results he obtained. What those three tools were escapes me for the moment
--- I'll have to look at the tapes again.One was a special spectroscope.

-AK-

ps: There was a  young man, an engineer by profession, exposed to chemistry in
high school, and fascinated with Mill's work.  He brought down his copy of Mill's
thick book, driving straight down from the Bay area earlier, to get Mill's
autograph on his book. I asked him if he was staying around to take in the Friday
Cold Fusion session (as we were leaving Wednesday after 5:00  P.M.).  "No". he
said. He was driving right back home now.
He may be one of the successor youths that Planck referred to. : )

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  9 15:51:09 1999
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Subject: Re: Mills' Hydrino: Fractional Orbit Electrons or Neutrinos?
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FWIW, Horace,

The role of the antineutrino binding an electron to a proton 
in a neutron and especially the binding of the neutron to a proton
in a deuteron is probably the best anology of what the antineutrino
might be doing in Mills' "Hydrino Hydrides", etc.

This can account for Aneutronic/Gammaless CF reactions also.

Regards,    Frederick

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Try this out, Horace.    :-)

 http://www.explorescience.com/lisajous.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  9 18:46:31 1999
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On Mon, 04 Oct 1999 14:14:16 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
[snip]
>Their statement is predicated on the hope that the destruction can be
>avoided. That would be the first problem to solve.
>
>- Jed
I seem to remember reading in a previous post that tungsten powder
collects at the bottom of the cell. I wonder if this powder would work
equally well as the cathode? I.e. perhaps they could start out with
powder, and then at worst it would just become more finely divided,
essentially lasting until such time as all the W had transmuted.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

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Akira Kawasaki wrote:
> I am lazy about tedious work anyway.
> However, I will be making copies needed to help publicise and advance the
CF
> effort in cooperation with others.

Which reminds me to make a long overdue thank you, Akira,
for your many years of effort to accomplish precisely that.

I keep hoping your efforts aren't in vain, but nevertheless,
the generosity of your efforts remains regardless of the
final scientific outcome.

Thanks again.

--
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan yahoo.com  --  651-633-8918 -
 - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Mills at ACS Meeting?
In-Reply-To: <002901bf12c8$a2c76940$0101a8c0 john>
References: <0.f99f3d25.2530f9b5 aol.com>
 <37FFC79C.272AEDB ix.netcom.com>
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  I'll second that, including for many
years.  
   See for example, 
   http://world.std.com/~mica/cft62.gif

  Thanks, Akira.

   Mitchell Swartz

At 09:39 PM 10/9/99 -0500, John Logajan wrote:
>Akira Kawasaki wrote:
>> I am lazy about tedious work anyway.
>> However, I will be making copies needed to help publicise and advance the
>CF
>> effort in cooperation with others.
>
>Which reminds me to make a long overdue thank you, Akira,
>for your many years of effort to accomplish precisely that.
>
>I keep hoping your efforts aren't in vain, but nevertheless,
>the generosity of your efforts remains regardless of the
>final scientific outcome.
>
>Thanks again.
>
>--
> - John Logajan -- jlogajan yahoo.com  --  651-633-8918 -
> - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  9 22:12:47 1999
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Is Spin of a  Stationary Wave in Space,To & Fro Motion, or Circular?

Horace?    :-)

Regards,     Frederick

 http://www.exploratorium.edu/xref/phenomena/simple_harmonic_motion.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  9 23:09:17 1999
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Maglev Trains
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 16:07:30 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <CS0AOCEWsg=G3ivXRkpuT63dw3B0 4ax.com>
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On Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:11:45 -0400, Terry Blanton wrote:

>Thanks to the lurking member who sent me this URL:
>
>http://www.maglev.com/english/index.htm

I hope their trains are faster than their web site ;)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 10 01:53:35 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: balance ... non balance
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 05:00:50 -0400
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John wrote:
>			[3]
>
> [1] New Age Association
>
>Npye Whtitp 1964 
>
> [2]  Balance Ratios #4
>
>0
>Acrup Sthouy
>	Bicycle Handbook 1954
>
>
>rhw
>WO5v5hd snilert
[snip many insiteful carriage returns]
>
>	The whirl pool analogy or odd behavior 

John,

Either your cat is dancing on your keyboard or you should have it looked at
by an expert (the keyboard).  Anyway, here is an URL that is right up your
sidestreet.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_468000/468857.stm

Cheerios,

Knuke 
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 10 06:15:33 1999
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From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
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I would like to find out the magnetic properties of magnesium before I
do an experiment.
Does anyone here know what magnetic properties it has?
I looked but couldn't find much.


Thank You
John Berry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 10 06:55:18 1999
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After looking a bit more I found this, I would still like more info but it
does tell me that it is paramagnetic, Look at the diamagnetic rating of
cholesterol!!!!! There must be a way to test this and a use for something
so diamagnetic, I just wish I know where bismuth would show up on the
below list.

So we need to see if Bismuth is really king after all...

Paramagnetic (+)
+ 10,200.00     Neodymium        (Nd2O3)
+  7,200.00     Iron Oxide       (FeO)
+  4,900.00     Cobalt Oxide     (CoO)
+  1,860.00     Samarium         (Sm)
+    660.00     Nickel Oxide     (NiO)
+    529.00     Manganese        (Mn)
+    395.00     Uranium          (U)
+     13.00     Magnesium        (Mg)
>          0.00     Lutetium         (Lt)
-      5.46     Copper           (Cu)
-      6.70     Boron            (B)
-     15.50     Sulfur           (S)
-     24.10     Mercury          (Hg)
-     30.30     Sodium Chloride  (NaCl)
-     38.20     Calcium Chloride (CaCO3)
-    122.00     Zirconium        (Zr)
-    248.00     Cholesterol      (C27H46O)
Diamagnetic (-)

John Berry wrote:

> I would like to find out the magnetic properties of magnesium before I
> do an experiment.
> Does anyone here know what magnetic properties it has?
> I looked but couldn't find much.
>
> Thank You
> John Berry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 10 07:02:48 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Valid E mail for Hal Fox
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	Dear Vo.,

	Someone has asked me to send a document to Hal Fox.

	The only  E mail I have for him bounces.

		Thanks,

				John

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 10 07:17:51 1999
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cc: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
Subject: Help Bill Beatty... Re: Magnesium Magnetisim
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	Dear John Berry,

	What are the units of measure you are using?

	Please relate them... or some Vo please realate them ....to us in
some kind of equivalency we can understand...

	Examples:

	100 C is where water boils
	0 C is where water freezes

	Magnetic:

	Gauss ... the field of the earth ranges, approximately from 1/4
Gauss to 3/4 Gauss ... depending on where you are... stronger at the poles
and weaker at the equator.
	You need maybe 50 to 250 gauss magnet to pick up small steel
papers clips ...
	A Tesla ... as magnetic unit is 10,000 Gauss and is a VERY strong
magnet and such a magnet erases magnetic tapes, the magnetic stip
on some credit cards and is a little stronger than the strongest permanent
magnets,
	This is a very simplified definition and we all would  like a Vo
with better teaching skills than I to give us a better definition.

	Aluminum sulphate beats bismuth for diamagnetism ... but the unit
numbers are VERY VERY small ... maybe 1 million times smaller than can be
felt with the fingers directly .....
	If you have a medium sized good crystal of Aluminum sulphate...
and you float it on a "little boat" made of wood, in a large glass dish of
water .... you can very very faintly push the boat away from a VERY strong
permanent magnet, such as a good Neodymium Iron Boron or Samarium Cobalt
magnet.....  where this same magnet will pick up a whole bunch of paper
clips against gravity...

		
	I mould like a good "down home" defintion of the CRC units of
diamagtneism and paramagnetism...

	Help Bil Beatty!


On Mon, 11 Oct 1999, John Berry wrote:

> After looking a bit more I found this, I would still like more info but it
> does tell me that it is paramagnetic, Look at the diamagnetic rating of
> cholesterol!!!!! There must be a way to test this and a use for something
> so diamagnetic, I just wish I know where bismuth would show up on the
> below list.
> 
> So we need to see if Bismuth is really king after all...
> 
> Paramagnetic (+)
> + 10,200.00     Neodymium        (Nd2O3)
> +  7,200.00     Iron Oxide       (FeO)
> +  4,900.00     Cobalt Oxide     (CoO)
> +  1,860.00     Samarium         (Sm)
> +    660.00     Nickel Oxide     (NiO)
> +    529.00     Manganese        (Mn)
> +    395.00     Uranium          (U)
> +     13.00     Magnesium        (Mg)
> >          0.00     Lutetium         (Lt)
> -      5.46     Copper           (Cu)
> -      6.70     Boron            (B)
> -     15.50     Sulfur           (S)
> -     24.10     Mercury          (Hg)
> -     30.30     Sodium Chloride  (NaCl)
> -     38.20     Calcium Chloride (CaCO3)
> -    122.00     Zirconium        (Zr)
> -    248.00     Cholesterol      (C27H46O)
> Diamagnetic (-)
> 
> John Berry wrote:
> 
> > I would like to find out the magnetic properties of magnesium before I
> > do an experiment.
> > Does anyone here know what magnetic properties it has?
> > I looked but couldn't find much.
> >
> > Thank You
> > John Berry
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 10 07:46:38 1999
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 03:43:41 +1300
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
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Magnetic Susceptibility
Xm = Mx = M (k/p) X 10-6
It's just copied from the page: http://gcea.com/abc.shtm (page pasted below)

I hope that makes sense to you.

I guess the page roughly answers my question as it tells me that magnesium is
paramagnetic and gives the strength.
I have now become interested in finding the highest diamagnetic (why not?)
material just for the sake of it. Bismuth may win with metals but maybe not if
the other elements and molecules are considered.....

John Schnurer wrote:

>         Dear John Berry,
>
>         What are the units of measure you are using?
>
>         Please relate them... or some Vo please realate them ....to us in
> some kind of equivalency we can understand...
>
>         Examples:
>
>         100 C is where water boils
>         0 C is where water freezes
>
>         Magnetic:
>
>         Gauss ... the field of the earth ranges, approximately from 1/4
> Gauss to 3/4 Gauss ... depending on where you are... stronger at the poles
> and weaker at the equator.
>         You need maybe 50 to 250 gauss magnet to pick up small steel
> papers clips ...
>         A Tesla ... as magnetic unit is 10,000 Gauss and is a VERY strong
> magnet and such a magnet erases magnetic tapes, the magnetic stip
> on some credit cards and is a little stronger than the strongest permanent
> magnets,
>         This is a very simplified definition and we all would  like a Vo
> with better teaching skills than I to give us a better definition.
>
>         Aluminum sulphate beats bismuth for diamagnetism ... but the unit
> numbers are VERY VERY small ... maybe 1 million times smaller than can be
> felt with the fingers directly .....
>         If you have a medium sized good crystal of Aluminum sulphate...
> and you float it on a "little boat" made of wood, in a large glass dish of
> water .... you can very very faintly push the boat away from a VERY strong
> permanent magnet, such as a good Neodymium Iron Boron or Samarium Cobalt
> magnet.....  where this same magnet will pick up a whole bunch of paper
> clips against gravity...
>
>
>         I mould like a good "down home" defintion of the CRC units of
> diamagtneism and paramagnetism...
>
>         Help Bil Beatty!
>
> On Mon, 11 Oct 1999, John Berry wrote:
>
> > After looking a bit more I found this, I would still like more info but it
> > does tell me that it is paramagnetic, Look at the diamagnetic rating of
> > cholesterol!!!!! There must be a way to test this and a use for something
> > so diamagnetic, I just wish I know where bismuth would show up on the
> > below list.
> >
> > So we need to see if Bismuth is really king after all...
> >
> > Paramagnetic (+)
> > + 10,200.00     Neodymium        (Nd2O3)
> > +  7,200.00     Iron Oxide       (FeO)
> > +  4,900.00     Cobalt Oxide     (CoO)
> > +  1,860.00     Samarium         (Sm)
> > +    660.00     Nickel Oxide     (NiO)
> > +    529.00     Manganese        (Mn)
> > +    395.00     Uranium          (U)
> > +     13.00     Magnesium        (Mg)
> > >          0.00     Lutetium         (Lt)
> > -      5.46     Copper           (Cu)
> > -      6.70     Boron            (B)
> > -     15.50     Sulfur           (S)
> > -     24.10     Mercury          (Hg)
> > -     30.30     Sodium Chloride  (NaCl)
> > -     38.20     Calcium Chloride (CaCO3)
> > -    122.00     Zirconium        (Zr)
> > -    248.00     Cholesterol      (C27H46O)
> > Diamagnetic (-)
> >
> > John Berry wrote:
> >
> > > I would like to find out the magnetic properties of magnesium before I
> > > do an experiment.
> > > Does anyone here know what magnetic properties it has?
> > > I looked but couldn't find much.
> > >
> > > Thank You
> > > John Berry
> >

ABC's Of Magnetics

                           Used by permission of SG Magnets Limited (Essex,
England).

            Introduction

            A correctly designed magnet or magnetic circuit (which may include
soft magnetic parts) will
            produce a truly permanent magnetic field in air gap. This field can
be utilized in several ways:

                 To charge molecules in a moving fluid (e.g., fluid moving
through a pipe).
                 To produce an attractive force on a soft magnetic armature
(e.g., door catches,
                 separators).
                 To produce attraction or expulsion between itself and the
magnetic field produced by
                 an electric current in a winding (e.g., motors, meters,
loudspeakers).
                 To generate currents when the magnet moves with respect to a
winding or conductive
                 sheet (e.g., generators, speedometers).
                 To reflect moving charged particles (e.g., magnetron traveling
tubes, body scanners).

            Most modern magnets are specially processed to enhance their
performance along one
            preferred magnetic axis, Anistropic. It is important to specify the
required magnetization axis
            even if the magnet is to be supplied unmagnetized. Magnets which
have no preferred
            magnetic access are usually referred to as Isotropic and have equal
magnetic properties.

            Hysteresis Loop

            As with all magnetic materials, their characteristics are shown by
plotting the hysteresis loop.
            The magnetic induction is plotted against the magnetizing (or
demagnetizing when H is
            negative) field H. Magnetic induction is defined as the magnetic
flux per unit cross-sectional
            area, and, at least for test purposes, the field H is produced by a
D.C. electromagnet.

            When an unmagnetized magnet at point O is acted on by a positive,
i.e., magnetizing field +H,
            the induction rises to a point A known as the saturation value. At
this point any increase in
            +H, has no further effect on the material.

            When G is reduced to a zero, a visible amount of induction remains.
This point Br is known as
            the remenance, and is the flux for unit area at the H = O point
after full magnetization.

            When a reverse or demagnetizing field is applied, the induction
falls, eventually reaching the
            B = O point at an H value of Hcs. This value of -H which reduces B
to zero is called the
            coercivity or Corecive force of the magnetic material.

            In practical use, a magnet will operate after magnetization at a
point on the curve between
            Br and Hcs. At such a point, the magnetic energy available to
produce a useful field in an air
            gap is proportional to the product of B and -H at that point. At one
specific point on the
            curve this product is a maximum, known as the Bhmax or maximum
energy product of the
            material. This value is used as a figure of merit, and in general,
the higher the Bhmax, the
            lower the total volume of magnet needed to give the required gap
field.

            Intrinsic Demagnetization Curves

            For some applications, particularly when using high coercivity
materials in motors, an
            alternative hysteresis loop and demagnetization curve is often
required, in which the Magnetic
            Polarization (symbol J) is plotted against YH.

            The J value is relative to the corresponding B value by the
relationship:

                S I Units B = u * H + J where u is the permeability of free
space

                c.g.s. Units B = H + 4 * J

            As a general comment, Hcs. is much higher than the Hcs. in high
coercivity materials and is a
            better guide to the resistance of demagnetization in motor and
similar applications. In many
            instances, both B and J versus H curves are shown on the same graph.

            Materials

            AlNiCo

            AlNiCo describes a family of materials which is derived from a
common base composition
            comprising of aluminum, nickel, cobalt and iron with varying
additions of other elements. By
            varying the composition it is possible to tailor the magnetic
properties to meet the needs of a
            wide variety of end use applications. Some of these materials are
produced using advanced
            powder metallurgical processes. These technologies permit
cost-effective production of
            complex shapes to close tolerances often without the need for
subsequent machining
            operations. The sintered grades of AlNiCo are also mechanically
stronger than the equivalent
            grade of cast magnet.

            Features

                 Lowest reversible temperature coefficient of magnetism
                 Operating temperature capability up to 500 C
                 Suited for cost-effective volume production
                 Physical and dimensional properties more consistent than cast
grades

            Three types of AlNiCo have been developed: Isotropic, Anistropic
high remenance and
            Anistropic high coercivity. All perform well in service and offer
benefits which suit different
            applications.

            Isotropic AlNiCo offers excellent overall performance for general
applications.

                 Antistropic AlNiCo
                 High Coercivity: Resistance to demagnetization in demanding
environments
                 High Remenance: Maximum flux density over small air gaps

            Bonded Magnets

            Injection Molded Ferrite

            Injection molded ferrite is ideal for applications where a cost
effective magnet needs to be
            combined with complex forms. Injection molded ferrite can be
supplied in both Isotropic and
            Anistropic form, resulting in a wide range of different magnetic
performances. These magnets
            can also be custom blended ferrite at different strengths and
content (e.g. barium or
            strontium), with differing plastic binders, resulting in the ability
to create the most suitable
            magnetic performance with the most suitable plastic binder. In
certain applications Ferrite
            can be designed to perform at temperatures of up to +180 C, the only
constraint is the
            thermal properties of the binder at elevated temperature.

            Injection Molded Neodymium

            Injection Molded Neodymium magnets are often used when a powerful
isotropic magnet is
            required in a complex form. Injection Molded Neodymium can be molded
with different
            levels of magnetic material in the binder to suit the application.
Historically Neodymium has
            had a much lower operating temperature than most other types of
magnet, however,
            injection molded Neodymium has a useful maximum operating
temperature of +180 C.

            Compression Bonded Neodymium

            Where maximum performance in a Bonded Magnet is required, then
Compression Bonded
            Neodymium offers the best solution. Ideal for two dimensional forms
it has the highest
            remenance of all bonded magnets and can be coated to improve
environmental protection.


                                          Magnetic Susceptibility
                                          Xm = Mx = M (k/p) X 10-6

                                Paramagnetic (+)
                                    + 10,200.00     Neodymium        (Nd2O3)
                                    +  7,200.00     Iron Oxide       (FeO)
                                    +  4,900.00     Cobalt Oxide     (CoO)
                                    +  1,860.00     Samarium         (Sm)
                                    +    660.00     Nickel Oxide     (NiO)
                                    +    529.00     Manganese        (Mn)
                                    +    395.00     Uranium          (U)
                                    +     13.00     Magnesium        (Mg)
                                >          0.00     Lutetium         (Lt)
                                    -      5.46     Copper           (Cu)
                                    -      6.70     Boron            (B)
                                    -     15.50     Sulfur           (S)
                                    -     24.10     Mercury          (Hg)
                                    -     30.30     Sodium Chloride  (NaCl)
                                    -     38.20     Calcium Chloride (CaCO3)
                                    -    122.00     Zirconium        (Zr)
                                    -    248.00     Cholesterol      (C27H46O)
                                Diamagnetic (-)

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Try this one, Horace.

Regards,    Frederick

 http://webphysics.davidson.edu/Applets/Examples_From_Others/super2.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 10 11:39:32 1999
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Oct 10, 1999

Vortex,

John Schnurer wrote:

>         The only  E mail I have for him bounces.

You should list the bouncing e-mail address so you won't be getting the
same address.I have two: <halfox slkc.uswest.net> and
<halfox uswest.net>. One of them probably is no good. Which one do you
have?

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 10 15:03:17 1999
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Oct. 10, 1999

Vortex,

While running the copy setup and reviewing the Mills session, I was
reminded that Mills announced that he would be posting most of his
papers presented at the ACS Conference at his BlackLight Power website
within a week or so. So those interested, can pick up on his
presentation for free.

If few of those that expressed interest in the audio-visual version of
his presentation are still interested, let me know again. The tapes
shouldn't run more than $15 per cassette  plus mail.
It's a two cassette set -- approximately four hours of tape on VHS, NTSC
or PAL/SECAM format.

-ak-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 10 21:32:49 1999
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Magnesium Magnetisim
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> Magnetic Susceptibility
> Xm = Mx = M (k/p) X 10-6


The Xm is probably "chi subscript m," the magnetic susceptibility. I don't
know what Mx and m (k/p) are.

If Xm is magnetic susceptibility, then it relates to the common magnetic
permeability, mu of the material as    mu = mu_0(1 + Xm).  In para and
diamagnetic materials the magnitude of Xm is very much less than 1, so I
suspect that the values given in the table John Barry copied have been
multiplied by some large number, maybe 10^6?

=====
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 10 21:40:58 1999
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The table does seem to be screwed because it lists things that I thought would
be ferrous as paramagnetic, Aren't some of those things Ferrous?

Or does neodymium only create a strong field (greater than 1) with iron and
boron? (like the aluminum in alnico magnets)

+ 10,200.00     Neodymium        (Nd2O3)
+  7,200.00     Iron Oxide       (FeO)
+  4,900.00     Cobalt Oxide     (CoO)
+  1,860.00     Samarium         (Sm)
+    660.00     Nickel Oxide     (NiO)


Michael Schaffer wrote:

> > Magnetic Susceptibility
> > Xm = Mx = M (k/p) X 10-6
>
> The Xm is probably "chi subscript m," the magnetic susceptibility. I don't
> know what Mx and m (k/p) are.
>
> If Xm is magnetic susceptibility, then it relates to the common magnetic
> permeability, mu of the material as    mu = mu_0(1 + Xm).  In para and
> diamagnetic materials the magnitude of Xm is very much less than 1, so I
> suspect that the values given in the table John Barry copied have been
> multiplied by some large number, maybe 10^6?
>
> =====
> Michael J. Schaffer
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 10 22:10:38 1999
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John writes:

>a]	The whirl pool can be thought of as a balanced system and maybe it
>can be thought of as having a non balance mode.
>	Please consider the citations listed below and the real world
>flowing water system used by industry.

Hi John,

Have you found a whirlpool?  I don't see any connection to one "used by 
industry".

>	If the rider in k
>
>	A whirl pool with a smooth load and surfaces is  thought of
>as a wheel which is in balance: [1]

Curt Hallberg said he was "annoyed" because he could not get the wobble out 
of his Schauberger Vortex water cleaner.

If these folks have data on the whirlpool I want to see it.  Where did  
these statements come from.  Did they build a whirlpool?  Where is it?

David



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 10 23:28:16 1999
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	John Berry-
	From  CRC Handbook 1964-65

	Old but good.

	
Magnetic susceptibility of the elements and inorganic compounds.

	E-58-62 .... different page numbers in different volumes.
Look in the INDEX in back

	When you see a table like this you HAVE to look and see what the
units of measure are.... Did you look in your table?  Borrow a CRC
Handbook of Chemistry and Physics.

	One gram formula weight in cgs units ..
	c = centimeter  g = gram  s = second
	
	ALL the measure of diamagnetism and paramagnetism are in
	
	1/ 1,000,000 ... MILLIONTHS 	....... read the units, please.
	
	Bismuth   			- 280.1... MILLIONTHS    cgs
	aluminum sulphate 		-  93.0     ""
	Al (SO4)3 .18 H2O		- 323.0     ""

	cast iron is ferro magnetic and is something like 1,200
	to 1,700 positive units....
	NOT    1/ 1,000,000   NOT  ... MILLIONTHS
			....... read the units, please.

	suppose you were talking about how heavy is a grape....

	well it MIGHT be  5,100,000 ....... micro grams   OR  
	it MIGHT be  0.000000017   Tons...

	Magentism is really neat ... but you have to read the units.

	Wait till you get to light... and Lux, candela, TDs, ft Lamberts
	cool!

	I think a Barn is 1 X 10 negative 24 centimeter...

				John

	PS:  Let me know when you find... the king... AND the figures
CHANGE with temperature, axis of magnetism ... and other stuff.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 10 23:43:36 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: data not explainable by standard theory 
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> > "... Can you give me one example of an experiment
> > that is simple enough to be controlled
> > and
> > that you yourself have performed (or participated in),
> > which is repeatable,
> > and
> > which cannot be explained by existing standard
> > textbook theories of Maxwell/Einstein e-m/gravity. ...".

	And is able to be performed at STP for 50 dollars or less with non
toxic, safe equipment.


	From discussion






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 00:51:33 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: data not explainable by standard theory
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At 2:47 AM 10/11/99, John Schnurer wrote:
>> > "... Can you give me one example of an experiment
>> > that is simple enough to be controlled
>> > and
>> > that you yourself have performed (or participated in),
>> > which is repeatable,
>> > and
>> > which cannot be explained by existing standard
>> > textbook theories of Maxwell/Einstein e-m/gravity. ...".
>
>        And is able to be performed at STP for 50 dollars or less with non
>toxic, safe equipment.
[snip]


Sure!

Here is one that I think requires a QM explanation.  It involves light
only, but light, gravity, what's the difference!  Just different messenger
particles, right?  8^)

Obtain 3 polarizing lenses (filters.)  If not available to you then go to a
store with a Polaroid sunglasses rack and use 3 pairs of glasses to perform
the experiment. (Don't take the glasses apart.)   It helps to bring a
friend for the third hand.

Hold one lens up to a light.  The light is diminished and polarized.  Place
the second lens in front of the first by about 5 inches.  Look through both
lenses and adjust the second lens to minimize the light by rotating it
about the axis of vision.  The two lenses should now be polarizing the
light at 90 degrees to each other resulting in almost no light pssing
through.  Slowly move the third lens in between the first two  (You can
actually place behind or in front just as well, but the effect is more
interesting when the 3rd lens is placed in the middle, IMHO.)

Explain the result.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Experiment requiring QM explanation?
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At 2:47 AM 10/11/99, John Schnurer wrote:
>> > "... Can you give me one example of an experiment
>> > that is simple enough to be controlled
>> > and
>> > that you yourself have performed (or participated in),
>> > which is repeatable,
>> > and
>> > which cannot be explained by existing standard
>> > textbook theories of Maxwell/Einstein e-m/gravity. ...".
>
>        And is able to be performed at STP for 50 dollars or less with non
>toxic, safe equipment.
[snip]



Here is an experiment that I think requires a QM explanation, that is not
explainable with only  Einstein, Maxwell, Newton, etc.

Obtain 3 polarizing lenses (filters.)  If not available to you then go to a
store with a Polaroid sunglasses rack and use 3 pairs of glasses to perform
the experiment. (Don't take the glasses apart.)   It helps to bring a
friend for the third hand.

Hold one lens up to a light.  The light is diminished and polarized.  Place
the second lens in front of the first by about 5 inches.  Look through both
lenses and adjust the second lens to minimize the light by rotating it
about the axis of vision.  The two lenses should now be polarizing the
light at 90 degrees to each other resulting in almost no light pssing
through.  Slowly move the third lens in between the first two.  Rotate the
middle mirror.  At what angle to the first lens is the light output
maximum?  Minimum?

Explain the result.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 01:04:44 1999
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 00:11:36 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Experiment requiring QM explanation?
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At 2:47 AM 10/11/99, John Schnurer wrote:
>> > "... Can you give me one example of an experiment
>> > that is simple enough to be controlled
>> > and
>> > that you yourself have performed (or participated in),
>> > which is repeatable,
>> > and
>> > which cannot be explained by existing standard
>> > textbook theories of Maxwell/Einstein e-m/gravity. ...".
>
>        And is able to be performed at STP for 50 dollars or less with non
>toxic, safe equipment.
[snip]



Here is an experiment that I think requires a QM explanation, that is not
explainable with only  Einstein, Maxwell, Newton, etc.

Obtain 3 polarizing lenses (filters.)  If not available to you then go to a
store with a Polaroid sunglasses rack and use 3 pairs of glasses to perform
the experiment. (Don't take the glasses apart.)   It helps to bring a
friend for the third hand.

Hold one lens up to a light.  The light is diminished and polarized.  Place
the second lens in front of the first by about 5 inches.  Look through both
lenses and adjust the second lens to minimize the light by rotating it
about the axis of vision.  The two lenses should now be polarizing the
light at 90 degrees to each other resulting in almost no light passing
through.  Slowly move the third lens in between the first two.  Rotate the
middle lens.  At what angle to the first lens is the light output
maximum?  Minimum?

Explain the result.

Regards,

Horace Heffner

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 02:29:40 1999
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Jean-Louis writes:

>If you no time for checking this, I will send you the answer...

Have you ever talked to Curt Hallberg at Viktor Schauberger's Vortex World?  
<http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-58759/Starteng.html>

Have you seen my test of principle model?
<http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-58759/energy/whirpow/whpow1.html>

Are you really going build a whirlpool?

David Dennard
The Phoenix
http://www.whirlpower.cc


______________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 02:40:35 1999
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Looks like Ananda is going to try and "horn" in on my work.

Beware, this is not what it appears to be.  For those have the God stuff 
going, these folks are trying to rip me off and will get rid of the "man in 
sackcloth and ashes".  I have already had it out with Ananda and way no way 
will I endorse homosexuality and sorcery.

David


>
>  WE ADVISE YOU TO CONDUCT YOUR OWN RESEARCH & USE YOUR INTEGRATED LOGIC,
>INTUITION, UNIFIED GUIDANCE, BEFORE ARRIVING AT A DEFINITE CONCLUSION TO 
>THE
>MATERIAL CONTAINED IN THIS WEB SITE. CONTRIBUTE YOUR UNIQUE TRUTH TO THE
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>
>Go to the ATON HOR QUEM pages.
>
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>click
>HERE. An in-depth article by Ananda on Galactic Crossing, with Egypt and
>astrophysical changes being explored. See the Interview with graphics:
>www.akasha.de/~aton/X.html
>
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>TIME GATE: A Global Internal Time Travelling Doorway, connecting two
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>VORTEXIJAH vs MERKABBAH, The Chakra Vajra Spin,Interdimensional Solution
>Beyond Electromagnetic or Light Geometry, into Intergeometry, Emmanuel
>Translated Ananda Physically in 1989, here is the history of the Chakra
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>VORTEXIJAH INDUCTION BREATH, IN SEVERAL SIMPLE STEPS. Here are some simple
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>Body Star Ship Propulsion Engine. Dove and Phoenix become the Grail in the
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>REDPIN: Golden Fleece Dimensional & Universal Shift Notes, written for a
>Bard Decoder for the Ancient Order of the Golden Fleece, High Initiates.
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>
>
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>The
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>to major information projects and interdimensional geometrical
>breakthroughs.
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>Having gained much additional inspiration from Emmanuel, she came forward 
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>th her own discoveries, and contributions, which has been firmly recognised
>by the International Guild of Colour Practitioners. Go here to this Artist
>Journey of Oneness, in Auna's Home Page. And also be updated from Auna's
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>this sounds like science fiction or not, you will enjoy this human being's
>concepts and art form. This home page represents her PARADIGM. Auna online
>may be more radicle, and includes her Virtual continuance.
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>"Extraterrestrial" and "Interdimensional" contacts.
>SOMANETICS HOME PAGE learn about the Third Eye's secret elexier, the Soma 
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>the Green Lion: Pinoline, Harmine, DMT, and the Internal Net solution to 
>the
>Internet.
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>Hallway Of Records (HOR) from Egypt, to illustrate the Light Body Star Ship
>Secrets. 10 day unique training, after 2 years and 8 months, Ananda
>personally passes on these techniques, one more time, and expanded in
>universal implications.
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>posted here. These discoveries will gradually be released here. Discovered
>by a Christ Brother, who was part of the time gate. This is a beautiful
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>ATLANTIS FOUND, in 1994 Ananda uncovered further Atlantis evidence while in
>the Bermuda Triangle. With photographs, site under construction.
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>Ananda has been invited to decode the 'Moses Hall', Here are Ananda's first
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>DATES OF SEMINARS, LECTURES, & TRAININGS, by Ananda. Ananda is not just a
>computer programme, but is a real interactive presence, and has to be seen
>to be believed. Also information on books now available in German. And
>Training Contacts.
>ANANDA IN SWEDISH: An Article By AlphaOmega magazine, dealing with an
>overview of Ananda's Story, comparing some of it to John Travolta in the
>film "Phenomenon", the Pineal Gland and the Chakra Vajra. AlphaOmega
>magazine is the quality Scandinavian magazine that is truely awakening
>people to crucial issues.
>
>
>
>THIS SITE, THE ATON SITE, AND THE ODIN HAS BEEN SOLELY WEB MASTERED BY
>ANANDA SO FAR


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 05:13:17 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re; H2-Potassium Cold Plasma (Corona) Generator?
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 06:09:21 -0700
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High voltage leads in glass or quartz tubes in a chamber
containing H2O or D2O & K2CO3 or H2 , D2, and K
evacuated to millitorr pressures should generate enough
Corona discharge to be a " Cold Plasma", Perhaps?

A couple of weeks ago my nephew and his wife were
going over 10,850 ft Wolf Creek Pass in SW Colorado
in their 35 ft, RV with it's 454 in^3 (7.4 liter) Chevy engine.
The Corona on the ignition wires dropped the horsepower
down to  about the same as a gas powered weed-wacker. :-)

Regards,    Frederick



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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 08:32:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: good one Re: Experiment requiring QM explanation?
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	Dear H.

	The lens in the middle twists the plane of polarization.
	This is also a well known method of analysing many transparent
materials.
	EXP:  Take some clear cellophane ... cigarette clear package
wrapping works very well... and fold so you have a mish-mash of 1 or 3 or
2 or 5 layers.... and put THIS between the two filters....
	Very pretty colors.


On Mon, 11 Oct 1999, Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 2:47 AM 10/11/99, John Schnurer wrote:
> >> > "... Can you give me one example of an experiment
> >> > that is simple enough to be controlled
> >> > and
> >> > that you yourself have performed (or participated in),
> >> > which is repeatable,
> >> > and
> >> > which cannot be explained by existing standard
> >> > textbook theories of Maxwell/Einstein e-m/gravity. ...".
> >
> >        And is able to be performed at STP for 50 dollars or less with non
> >toxic, safe equipment.
> [snip]
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an experiment that I think requires a QM explanation, that is not
> explainable with only  Einstein, Maxwell, Newton, etc.
> 
> Obtain 3 polarizing lenses (filters.)  If not available to you then go to a
> store with a Polaroid sunglasses rack and use 3 pairs of glasses to perform
> the experiment. (Don't take the glasses apart.)   It helps to bring a
> friend for the third hand.
> 
> Hold one lens up to a light.  The light is diminished and polarized.  Place
> the second lens in front of the first by about 5 inches.  Look through both
> lenses and adjust the second lens to minimize the light by rotating it
> about the axis of vision.  The two lenses should now be polarizing the
> light at 90 degrees to each other resulting in almost no light passing
> through.  Slowly move the third lens in between the first two.  Rotate the
> middle lens.  At what angle to the first lens is the light output
> maximum?  Minimum?
> 
> Explain the result.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 05:46:18 1999
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These are "Cold Plasma" Free Radical Generators without the
use of Potassium.

 http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US05650693__

See Also:    US05603895
                   US05472664
                   US05413760
                   US05413759
                   US05115166

Regards,     Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 06:07:47 1999
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At 2:47 AM 10/11/99, John Schnurer wrote:

"... Can you give me one example of an experiment ...
which cannot be explained by existing standard
textbook theories of Maxwell/Einstein e-m/gravity. ...".

Horace wrote:

Sure!

Here is one that I think requires a QM explanation.
It involves light only, but light, gravity, what's the difference!
Just different messenger particles, right?  8^)

Obtain 3 polarizing lenses (filters.) ...
Slowly move the third lens in between the first two  ...

Hi Horace,

This is a fascinating experiment which I have done hundreds of 
times.  It never ceases to amaze me.  It makes me want to
prarphrase Democritus as follows:  "All that exists are atoms,
the void, and quantum mechanics ..."

Jack Smith

Horace wrote:

THE FUNDAMENTAL QUANTUM UNITS

The purpose here is to take a look at some consequences of the
assumption that the fundamental phsyical values, distance, time,
mass, and charge, and therefore all derived physical values,
are either quantized or rationalized.  A physical value is said to be
quantized if it exists in reality only in integer multiples of a
fundamental value called the quantum of physical value ...

Jack writes:

Horace, did you ever try to derive E = mc^2  using this approach?


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 06:08:39 1999
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 http://wwwppd.nrl.navy.mil/branches/6750/6750.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 07:00:00 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: good one Re: Experiment requiring QM explanation?
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At 8:32 AM 10/11/99, John Schnurer wrote:
>        Dear H.
>
>        The lens in the middle twists the plane of polarization.
>        This is also a well known method of analysing many transparent
>materials.
>        EXP:  Take some clear cellophane ... cigarette clear package
>wrapping works very well... and fold so you have a mish-mash of 1 or 3 or
>2 or 5 layers.... and put THIS between the two filters....
>        Very pretty colors.
>


This is not an adequate explanation of the results because it does not
explain why, when you remove one of the lenses, the light passed is less as
you rotate away from mutual alignmen of the polarization axes of the
remaining two filters.  For example, if you remove the closest lens, rotate
the middle filter from alignment with the first lens the light becomes
less.  The polarization is not rotated, it is further filtered when you
have only the first filter and middle filter.  Same is true when you have
only the middle and outer filter, or the two outer filters.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 07:00:22 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: The Fundamental Quantum Units (Corrected somewhat)
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At 5:09 AM 10/11/99, Taylor J. Smith wrote:
[snip]
>Horace, did you ever try to derive E = mc^2  using this approach?

No I haven't.  That is an interesting idea.  I can say that working on this
even this brief time has produced a lot more puzzles than answers, and has
produced a wellspring of questions and ideas for me.  I am now fully
diverted from draining the swamp to wrestling with one of the allegators
uncovered.  I may have to bail out of vortex again for a while because I am
now way beyond saturation.

I should say that E = mc^2 is fundamental to various paradoxes and has been
a primary tool for deduction of the nature of a fully quantized universe,
if such exists.  It feels like there is not much to work with in
fundamentally quantized mechanics without it.  However, I haven't even
begun to consider electromagnetics, so you can see the importance E = mc^2
has at this point as a premise.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 07:26:28 1999
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From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
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Damn, I meant to try that experiment years ago and forgot, Next time I'm at the
mall guess what I'm going to be playing with. (everyone wondering what the
dork's doing looking through three sunglasses slowly rotating them as he looks
at the lights ;)


Now I hope that the answer is truly a quantum one, but is it not possible that
polaroid film has the ability to turn light somewhat so that the light after
passing through the middle lens is on an angle? What would happen if you had a
number of lenses, each one maybe at maybe 22.5 degrees or 11.25 degrees till it
is rotated more than 90 degrees, If light is too far out if is absorbed but if
it's polarization is close enough it can turn a certain percentage of it, this
is only a possibility but it seems like an easy answer.


John Berry

Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 8:32 AM 10/11/99, John Schnurer wrote:
> >        Dear H.
> >
> >        The lens in the middle twists the plane of polarization.
> >        This is also a well known method of analysing many transparent
> >materials.
> >        EXP:  Take some clear cellophane ... cigarette clear package
> >wrapping works very well... and fold so you have a mish-mash of 1 or 3 or
> >2 or 5 layers.... and put THIS between the two filters....
> >        Very pretty colors.
> >
>
> This is not an adequate explanation of the results because it does not
> explain why, when you remove one of the lenses, the light passed is less as
> you rotate away from mutual alignmen of the polarization axes of the
> remaining two filters.  For example, if you remove the closest lens, rotate
> the middle filter from alignment with the first lens the light becomes
> less.  The polarization is not rotated, it is further filtered when you
> have only the first filter and middle filter.  Same is true when you have
> only the middle and outer filter, or the two outer filters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 07:44:14 1999
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 10:43:11 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Life imitates art
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Haiku error messages now in use. See:

http://avdigest.com/collpark/flyer.html

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 07:47:38 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: good one Re: Experiment requiring QM explanation?
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At 8:32 AM 10/11/99, John Schnurer wrote:
>        Dear H.
>
>        The lens in the middle twists the plane of polarization.
>        This is also a well known method of analysing many transparent
>materials.
>        EXP:  Take some clear cellophane ... cigarette clear package
>wrapping works very well... and fold so you have a mish-mash of 1 or 3 or
>2 or 5 layers.... and put THIS between the two filters....
>        Very pretty colors.
>


This is not an adequate explanation of the results because it does not
explain why, when you remove one of the lenses, the light passed is less as
you rotate away from mutual alignment of the polarization axes of the
remaining two filters.  For example, if you remove the closest lens, rotate
the middle filter from alignment with the first lens the light becomes
less.  The polarization is not rotated, it is further filtered when you
have only the first filter and middle filter.  Same is true when you have
only the middle and outer filter, or the two outer filters.

Oh, sorry, I forgot the tricky part, which involves more than $50 to pull
off unless you get lucky coming up with a photomultiplyier tube.  The beam
intensity still follows Malus' law, I = I0 cos^2 theta, even when the
photons counted come through the filters one at a time.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: good one Re: Experiment requiring QM explanation?
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At 3:21 AM 10/12/99, John Berry wrote:
[snip]
>Now I hope that the answer is truly a quantum one, but is it not possible that
>polaroid film has the ability to turn light somewhat so that the light after
>passing through the middle lens is on an angle? What would happen if you had a
>number of lenses, each one maybe at maybe 22.5 degrees or 11.25 degrees till it
>is rotated more than 90 degrees, If light is too far out if is absorbed but if
>it's polarization is close enough it can turn a certain percentage of it, this
>is only a possibility but it seems like an easy answer.


Sorry, I am not focused, plus I didn't get get my correction out in time.
The QM explanation is only required when you know that photons are still
filtered in the same percentages even though they come through one at a
time.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 08:06:01 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The Schauberger Flying Saucer
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>Jean-Louis writes:
>
>>If you no time for checking this, I will send you the answer...
>
>Have you ever talked to Curt Hallberg at Viktor Schauberger's Vortex World?
><http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-58759/Starteng.html>
>
>Have you seen my test of principle model?
><http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-58759/energy/whirpow/whpow1.html>
>
>Are you really going build a whirlpool?
>
>David Dennard
>The Phoenix
>http://www.whirlpower.cc

***{Would someone please explain what the "Schauberger flying saucer" has
to do with anomalous science? The mechanics of the device are crystal
clear, and quite ordinary. To explain that statement, let me break the
analysis down a bit. Suppose you cut a flat circular disk from a piece of
aluminum sheet, position an electric motor so that its shaft points
straight up, mount the disk so it is centered on that shaft, and start it
spinning at 3600 rpm. Result: air molecules that contact the surface of the
spinning disk will be thrown down the tangents to the concentric circles at
the points of contact. Since all tangents, when extended, lead away from
the center of rotation, it follows that we will have air flow outward from
the center of rotation along the surface of the spinning disk. Thus if we
arrange a series of concentric ridges on the top surface of the disk and
cut holes on the near sides of the ridges (the sides closest to the center
of the disk), then the outward flow of air along the top surface of the
disk will, when it encounters the holes, pass from the top of the disk to
the bottom, before continuing on its outward course. Result: now we have
air flow from the top of the disk to the bottom, which will generate lift.
That means if we mount such a "Schauberger disk" with its edge flush
against the inside of a paraboloid bell housing, punch a hole at the center
of the housing to permit air to enter, and set the disk to rotating, air
will flow in at the center of the bell housing, downward through the
rotating "Schauberger disk," and out of the bottom of the bell housing,
causing the entire apparatus to lift itself into the air. Thus we will have
a "Schauberger flying saucer." To which I say: "So what?" Where is the
mystery about the performance of this device? --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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	Dear Horace,

	Now I have to get my books out.... but the main reason this
APPEARS to do odd things is that standard polarizing filters are
	a] far less than perfect
	b] have wavelength dependency
	c] are illuminated in this case with broad band light.

	NEXT:

	Call the mfg and ask the wavelength of center of maximum
polarization efficiency and the angle of acceptance.
	Then:  Use collimated light of close to this wl.

	You might find quite a different effect...
	Oh yeah.. and don't use plastic on plastic lamination filters.
	
	I will see if I can borrow silver glass polarizers.

		John

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 08:22:16 1999
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Akira Kawasaki wrote:
> 
> Oct. 10, 1999
> 
> Vortex,
> 
> ...If few of those that expressed interest in the audio-visual version of
> his presentation are still interested, let me know again. The tapes
> shouldn't run more than $15 per cassette  plus mail.

Hi Akira,

I would appreciate a VHS set.  Please send me
your mailing address at tjs11 centurytel.net

Thanks, Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 08:23:55 1999
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From: JNaudin509 aol.com
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 11:22:17 EDT
Subject: Re: The Schauberger Flying Saucer
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Dans un courrier daté du 11/10/99 17:06:08é), mjones jump.net a écrit :

> anomalous science?

What is anomalous science ?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 09:19:47 1999
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Experiment requiring QM explanation?
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>At 8:32 AM 10/11/99, John Schnurer wrote:
>>        Dear H.
>>
>>        The lens in the middle twists the plane of polarization.
>>        This is also a well known method of analysing many transparent
>>materials.
>>        EXP:  Take some clear cellophane ... cigarette clear package
>>wrapping works very well... and fold so you have a mish-mash of 1 or 3 or
>>2 or 5 layers.... and put THIS between the two filters....
>>        Very pretty colors.
>>
>
>
>This is not an adequate explanation of the results because it does not
>explain why, when you remove one of the lenses, the light passed is less as
>you rotate away from mutual alignmen of the polarization axes of the
>remaining two filters.  For example, if you remove the closest lens, rotate
>the middle filter from alignment with the first lens the light becomes
>less.  The polarization is not rotated, it is further filtered when you
>have only the first filter and middle filter.

***{It is filtered *and* rotated, Horace. That is: the photons that pass
through a polarizing lens are a subset of those that approached it from the
other side, hence filtration occurs. In addition, the planes of
polarization of the photons that pass through are brought into better
alignment with the axis of polarization of the filter, by virtue of having
passed through it. Result: you can have a series of polarizing lenses, each
of which is twisted at a small angle from the preceding one, and come out
at the end with light that is polarized 90 degrees to the orientation of
the first lens! (I recall reading about this effect many years ago, in a
*Scientific American* article, I think.) What this proves is that the plane
of polarization is, indeed, twisted as light passes through a polarizing
lens, exactly as John indicated. Bottom line: QM is *not* required to
explain this effect. (Or *any* effect, for that matter. :-) --MJ}***

Same is true when you have
>only the middle and outer filter, or the two outer filters.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner


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The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 11:18:11 1999
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Nanobubbles: Neutrino-Antineutrino Pair Production Hypothesis
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 12:13:34 -0700
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1, A Neutrino-Antineutrino Pair (0.2 to 0.4 ev)is formed at the
Liquid-Metal interface (Heated Metal or Electrolysis Electrodes).

2, Since the diameter of the neutrino ~ k*q^2/E (14.4 to 28.8 nanometers)
as compared to the water molecule spacing of ~0.15 Nanometers, a nanobubble
forms.

3, Formation of a Hydrino with release of EUV energy causes more
vaporization
of the water, and expands the nanobubble.

4, The nanobubble collapses, releasing energy also, possibly with
luminescence
or pitting of the metal surface.

If this doesn't fly, I'll put a couple of outboard motors in a stock
watering tank
and *Whirlpower* the thing into the wild blue yonder.   Sorry David.  :-)

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 11:48:56 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Schauberger Flying Saucer
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 11:46:49 PDT
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Hi Mitchell,
Don't know if your question is directed to me or not but Schauberger's work 
is pretty interesting.  I don't agree with a lot of it but it is the closest 
thing I have ever found to my work.

My saucer designs and my Whirlpower generator are not like Schauberger's but 
it is clear there is a comparison.  My saucer designs use Whirlpower to 
generate electricity then use that electricity to make a ball of lightning 
the craft rides like a bubble.

My advanced designs remain undisclosed.  Whirlpower is given freely to all.

"build the whirlpool, that's all it takes"

David


>From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: The Schauberger Flying Saucer
>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 10:02:07 -0500
>
> >Jean-Louis writes:
> >
> >>If you no time for checking this, I will send you the answer...
> >
> >Have you ever talked to Curt Hallberg at Viktor Schauberger's Vortex 
>World?
> ><http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-58759/Starteng.html>
> >
> >Have you seen my test of principle model?
> ><http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-58759/energy/whirpow/whpow1.html>
> >
> >Are you really going build a whirlpool?
> >
> >David Dennard
> >The Phoenix
> >http://www.whirlpower.cc
>
>***{Would someone please explain what the "Schauberger flying saucer" has
>to do with anomalous science? The mechanics of the device are crystal
>clear, and quite ordinary. To explain that statement, let me break the
>analysis down a bit. Suppose you cut a flat circular disk from a piece of
>aluminum sheet, position an electric motor so that its shaft points
>straight up, mount the disk so it is centered on that shaft, and start it
>spinning at 3600 rpm. Result: air molecules that contact the surface of the
>spinning disk will be thrown down the tangents to the concentric circles at
>the points of contact. Since all tangents, when extended, lead away from
>the center of rotation, it follows that we will have air flow outward from
>the center of rotation along the surface of the spinning disk. Thus if we
>arrange a series of concentric ridges on the top surface of the disk and
>cut holes on the near sides of the ridges (the sides closest to the center
>of the disk), then the outward flow of air along the top surface of the
>disk will, when it encounters the holes, pass from the top of the disk to
>the bottom, before continuing on its outward course. Result: now we have
>air flow from the top of the disk to the bottom, which will generate lift.
>That means if we mount such a "Schauberger disk" with its edge flush
>against the inside of a paraboloid bell housing, punch a hole at the center
>of the housing to permit air to enter, and set the disk to rotating, air
>will flow in at the center of the bell housing, downward through the
>rotating "Schauberger disk," and out of the bottom of the bell housing,
>causing the entire apparatus to lift itself into the air. Thus we will have
>a "Schauberger flying saucer." To which I say: "So what?" Where is the
>mystery about the performance of this device? --Mitchell Jones}***
>
> >
> >
> >______________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 11:57:43 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Experiment requiring QM explanation?
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At 11:15 AM 10/11/99, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>At 8:32 AM 10/11/99, John Schnurer wrote:
>>>        Dear H.
>>>
>>>        The lens in the middle twists the plane of polarization.
>>>        This is also a well known method of analysing many transparent
>>>materials.
>>>        EXP:  Take some clear cellophane ... cigarette clear package
>>>wrapping works very well... and fold so you have a mish-mash of 1 or 3 or
>>>2 or 5 layers.... and put THIS between the two filters....
>>>        Very pretty colors.
>>>
>>
>>
>>This is not an adequate explanation of the results because it does not
>>explain why, when you remove one of the lenses, the light passed is less as
>>you rotate away from mutual alignmen of the polarization axes of the
>>remaining two filters.  For example, if you remove the closest lens, rotate
>>the middle filter from alignment with the first lens the light becomes
>>less.  The polarization is not rotated, it is further filtered when you
>>have only the first filter and middle filter.
>
>***{It is filtered *and* rotated, Horace.


You fail to show which way the photon is rotated.  Don't forget that single
photons going through one at a time are counted (observed) by the same
intensity rules governing large quantities of light.  Therefore "filtering
and rotating" does not explain the phenomenon. Filtering does not apply to
one photon at a time.  If a filter rotates photons, to what angle does it
rotate them?  Does it in one circumstance rotate one way and in another
circumstance (context) rotate another?


>That is: the photons that pass
>through a polarizing lens are a subset of those that approached it from the
>other side, hence filtration occurs. In addition, the planes of
>polarization of the photons that pass through are brought into better
>alignment with the axis of polarization of the filter, by virtue of having
>passed through it. Result: you can have a series of polarizing lenses, each
>of which is twisted at a small angle from the preceding one, and come out
>at the end with light that is polarized 90 degrees to the orientation of
>the first lens! (I recall reading about this effect many years ago, in a
>*Scientific American* article, I think.) What this proves is that the plane
>of polarization is, indeed, twisted as light passes through a polarizing
>lens, exactly as John indicated. Bottom line: QM is *not* required to
>explain this effect. (Or *any* effect, for that matter. :-) --MJ}***


Wrong.  You can place a series of polarizing filters that twist one way and
a series that twist the other (yes in the aggregate the light polarization
is rotated) but how is it single photons go through the whole bunch of
filters?  There is no "filtering" effect for single photons.  Each photon
individually makes it through the gauntlet.  Do you say they are rotated
one way by some filters and the other way by others magically and in the
correct order to match the alignment chosen for the multiple filters?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 12:27:50 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Nanobubbles: Neutrino-Antineutrino Pair Production Hypothesis
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At 12:13 PM 10/11/99, Frederick Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>2, Since the diameter of the neutrino ~ k*q^2/E (14.4 to 28.8 nanometers)
>as compared to the water molecule spacing of ~0.15 Nanometers, a nanobubble
>forms.

Uh ... what q?  Neutrinos have no charge.

What is the difference between a light lepton and a charged neutrino?
Answer: you are charged less for one than the other.  <Chuckle>


At 2:38 PM 10/9/99, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Superposition between  a neutrino  and a proton or electron is merely
>the difference of  Phase/Chargewhich will affect the force, F = k*q1*q2/R^2
>
>Where q1 = f (cos x)  and q2 = f(sin x) with allowance made for the
>frequencies of q1 and q2 and R is the separation of the charges.

The flaw with the above is the use of the same x in both, true?  They will
not maintain a phase relationship, unless of course space is quantized.
8^)  Bosons can just zip right through each other.  Ghostly imagination?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 12:49:20 1999
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Subject: Re: VORTEXIJAH: An Introduction To Light Body Star Ship Field
	 Propulsion
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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David -

> Looks like Ananda is going to try and "horn" in on my work.
> 
> Beware, this is not what it appears to be.  For those have the God stuff
> going, these folks are trying to rip me off and will get rid of the "man in
> sackcloth and ashes".  I have already had it out with Ananda and way no way
> will I endorse homosexuality and sorcery.
>
> David

Please share this kind of material on Vortex B. This list is not appropriate
for that kind of posting.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 12:51:46 1999
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October 11, 1999

Jack,
 
> I would appreciate a VHS set.  Please send me
> your mailing address at tjs11 centurytel.net

Rather, give me your mailing address to ship the tapes. Paying for the
tapes and mail can come after you receive the tapes.

For that matter, since I am not going to copyright the contents, you can
pay for the my mailing cost only, make your own copy from the tapes,
then mail the tapes back to me so some others economically minded can do
the same. Somewhat a time consuming process but I think the most
economical. Please keep in mind that detail deteriorates as copy on copy
is made.

I must retract the SECAM/PAL format offer for now. This involves another
VCR that records in those formats and that runs into expense that does
not seem justified. Better that the viewer get their own converter to
view NTSC.

My propriety control would rest only on the fact that I would retain the
original S-VHS format tapes. All copies will be in the VHS format for
common use. From previous experience, I have tried to record data on the
projected viewgraph screen close enough to be readable in the copy VHS
format.

I have reported that there were not too much interaction between the
presentation and the attendees. On review of the tapes making copies, I
have to correct myself. Although Mills said he will be posting the
papers on his webpage, I think what will be missing are the question and
answer periods, Mills' short position on Quantum Mechanics and the
interesting summation of the session and future, and close-up view of
Mills himself as he makes his presentation. You can subjectively judge
how credible he is. :) I think he (and BLP) comes across as very
credible. Of course, I am an old fart that know beans about QM.
A questioner, Russ George, brought out from Mills that, although with
all their progress (BLP) in power production and chemical research, (all
positive, on-going, and reproducible), with all the interests expressed,
not much real push by "'Powers' that be" have come foward and become
involved. He still has to overcome masive scientific skepticism ---
especially when he is kicking QM. :)

And he does invite other independant research into the Hydrino concept
--- using the three tools to help along --- NMR, TOF-SIMS, XDS(?) ---. I
kinda doubt many in the Vortex community have them ready to use. :)

-AK-

-AK-

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Subject: Re: Nanobubbles: Neutrino-Antineutrino Pair Production Hypothesis
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----- Original Message -----
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 1999 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: Nanobubbles: Neutrino-Antineutrino Pair Production Hypothesis

Horace wrote:


> At 12:13 PM 10/11/99, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> [snip]
> >2, Since the diameter of the neutrino ~ k*q^2/(0.5*E) (14.4 to 28.8
nanometers)
> >as compared to the water molecule spacing of ~0.15 Nanometers, a
nanobubble
> >forms.
>
> Uh ... what q?  Neutrinos have no charge.

Don't need to, but they still have Spin +/- 1/2, (and in the nucleus)
like to attach to protons-deuterons and/or electrons.

Actually:  Diameter ~ k*(CV)^2/(0.5*E)   k = 1/(4*Pi*eo)

q = CV a constant (1.602E-19 coulombs for regular particles)

The SMALLER q or CV is, the smaller the diameter.

E total =  0.5*C*V^2 + 0.5*L*I^2

C = 2*Pi*R*eo    and  V = [E/(0.5*C)]^1/2

L = 2*Pi*R*uo     and  I = [E/(0.5*L)]^1/2   = C*dV/dT

Note that eo is a LENGTH ONLY property of space (8.84E-12 Farad/Meter)
or 8.84E-12 Coulomb/(joule-meter).

And uo 4*pi*1.0E-7 Newtons/ampere^2  or Henry/Meter
also a LENGTH ONLY property of Space. Both are
consistent with String-Superstring Theory (Which is Blowing Away QM Crap)!
>
> What is the difference between a light lepton and a charged neutrino?
> Answer: you are charged less for one than the other.  <Chuckle>

If  The Charge is 1.6E-19 Coulombs, BUT Due to 90 degree Phase Shift
y = cos x as opposed to y = sin of x, then Wave Superposition will dictate
that although the Neutrino and Antineutrino will be 180 degrees out of
phase with each other and annihilate, their Low Rest Mass and
Superposition with an electron/positronor Proton-Deuteron will give the
False Impression That They Are Neutral.
>
> At 2:38 PM 10/9/99, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >Superposition between  a neutrino  and a proton or electron is merely
> >the difference of  Phase/Chargewhich will affect the force, F =
k*q1*q2/R^2
> >
> >Where q1 = f (cos x)  and q2 = f(sin x) with allowance made for the
> >frequencies of q1 and q2 and R is the separation of the charges.
>
> The flaw with the above is the use of the same x in both, true?

Not True, Horace, draw a set of  Sine and Cosine curves and their
180 degree opposites on a transparency, then lay them over
each other in different combinations. Then take into account
energy-mass/amplitude and frequency/wavelength. (v = c, a constant).
Then try to prove that neutrinos are neutral.   :-)

> They will
> not maintain a phase relationship, unless of course space is quantized.
> 8^)  Bosons can just zip right through each other.  Ghostly imagination?

Horse Puckey. :-) High energy Protons or electrons are routinely shot
through heavy
nuclei and they just zip right through as long as their energy is above 610
Mev.

Regards,   Frederick
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 14:52:18 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Nanobubbles: Neutrino-Antineutrino Pair Production Hypothesis
Cc: <ron.brodzinski pnl.gov>
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At 2:49 PM 10/11/99, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>If  The Charge is 1.6E-19 Coulombs, BUT Due to 90 degree Phase Shift
>y = cos x as opposed to y = sin of x, then Wave Superposition will dictate
>that although the Neutrino and Antineutrino will be 180 degrees out of
>phase with each other and annihilate, their Low Rest Mass and
>Superposition with an electron/positronor Proton-Deuteron will give the
>False Impression That They Are Neutral.


Do you not see the intrinsic requirement for phase relations to be
maintained lock-step in perpetuity for any of the above to be true?  If
such a loack-step exists, this is a strong indication of a quantization of
time.


>>
>> At 2:38 PM 10/9/99, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>>
>> >Superposition between  a neutrino  and a proton or electron is merely
>> >the difference of  Phase/Chargewhich will affect the force, F =
>k*q1*q2/R^2
>> >
>> >Where q1 = f (cos x)  and q2 = f(sin x) with allowance made for the
>> >frequencies of q1 and q2 and R is the separation of the charges.
>>
>> The flaw with the above is the use of the same x in both, true?
>
>Not True, Horace, draw a set of  Sine and Cosine curves and their
>180 degree opposites on a transparency, then lay them over
>each other in different combinations. Then take into account
>energy-mass/amplitude and frequency/wavelength. (v = c, a constant).
>Then try to prove that neutrinos are neutral.   :-)


Again, any force proportional to cos x1 and sin x2 averaged over time
approaches zero os time --> inf.  Only if a lock-step relation is preserved
can you get a net force from coulomb attraction.  Spin is another matter of
course.


>
>> They will
>> not maintain a phase relationship, unless of course space is quantized.
>> 8^)  Bosons can just zip right through each other.  Ghostly imagination?
>
>Horse Puckey. :-) High energy Protons or electrons are routinely shot
>through heavy
>nuclei and they just zip right through as long as their energy is above 610
>Mev.


Protons and electrons "zipping through nucleii" are deflected or
disruptive.  Photons zip though each other as do neutrinos, regardless of
energy.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 15:42:10 1999
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: VORTEXIJAH: An Introduction To Light Body Star Ship Field Propulsion
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 15:38:04 PDT
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Rick writes:

>Please share this kind of material on Vortex B. This list is not 
>appropriate
>for that kind of posting.

There have been many posts form others about material being ripped off, 
opinions of discredible work and mention of scientific/spirital matters.  
You just love to put me down anytime you can.  I think your comments are off 
topic and of a personal nature against me and against the rules of this 
list.

Why not comment on "The Curve", "Whirlpower Cosmology", or Firmage saying 
the big bang is scince fiction.  I am astonished at this list.  Probably the 
most on topic subject ever presented was ignored by this list.  Firmage has 
changed scientifc history forever and you folks stick your heads in the sand 
like ostrichs.  I told you all it was coming last year when I told you about 
Vera Rubin's work and you all laughed at me like I was crazy.  I don't see 
any laughing this year, except maybe mine.  :)  :)  :)  :)

David

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 16:15:35 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: VORTEXIJAH: An Introduction To Light Body Star Ship Field Propulsion
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At 3:38 PM 10/11/99, David Dennard wrote:
>Rick writes:
>
>>Please share this kind of material on Vortex B. This list is not
>>appropriate
>>for that kind of posting.
>
>There have been many posts form others about material being ripped off,
>opinions of discredible work and mention of scientific/spirital matters.
>You just love to put me down anytime you can.  I think your comments are off
>topic and of a personal nature against me and against the rules of this
>list.


Obviously, pointing out a violation of the rules is not a personal attack,
but business of the list, especially if correct.   Although we have had
much more flagrant offenses, a call for observance of the rules should be
respected IMHO.
Can't we just discuss science here?  VortexB is handy and available for
other things.

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Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 16:18:52 1999
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Actually I do have a photomutiplier tube ;)

Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 8:32 AM 10/11/99, John Schnurer wrote:
> >        Dear H.
> >
> >        The lens in the middle twists the plane of polarization.
> >        This is also a well known method of analysing many transparent
> >materials.
> >        EXP:  Take some clear cellophane ... cigarette clear package
> >wrapping works very well... and fold so you have a mish-mash of 1 or 3 or
> >2 or 5 layers.... and put THIS between the two filters....
> >        Very pretty colors.
> >
>
> This is not an adequate explanation of the results because it does not
> explain why, when you remove one of the lenses, the light passed is less as
> you rotate away from mutual alignment of the polarization axes of the
> remaining two filters.  For example, if you remove the closest lens, rotate
> the middle filter from alignment with the first lens the light becomes
> less.  The polarization is not rotated, it is further filtered when you
> have only the first filter and middle filter.  Same is true when you have
> only the middle and outer filter, or the two outer filters.
>
> Oh, sorry, I forgot the tricky part, which involves more than $50 to pull
> off unless you get lucky coming up with a photomultiplyier tube.  The beam
> intensity still follows Malus' law, I = I0 cos^2 theta, even when the
> photons counted come through the filters one at a time.
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 16:19:18 1999
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <ron.brodzinski pnl.gov>
References: <v01530500b4280aec32e1 [12.21.208.81]>
Subject: Re: Nanobubbles: Neutrino-Antineutrino Pair Production Hypothesis
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 17:10:40 -0700
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Horace wrote:


> At 2:49 PM 10/11/99, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >If  The Charge is 1.6E-19 Coulombs, BUT Due to 90 degree Phase Shift
> >y = cos x as opposed to y = sin of x, then Wave Superposition will
dictate
> >that although the Neutrino and Antineutrino will be 180 degrees out of
> >phase with each other and annihilate, their Low Rest Mass and
> >Superposition with an electron/positronor Proton-Deuteron will give the
> >False Impression That They Are Neutral.
>
>
> Do you not see the intrinsic requirement for phase relations to be
> maintained lock-step in perpetuity for any of the above to be true?  If
> such a loack-step exists, this is a strong indication of a quantization of
> time.

Since TIME IS THE INVERSE OF FREQUENCY and you can apply
n* Me*ALPHA^(+/-)n' to about any known particle  (f = (1/LC)^1/2,
then, t = (LC)^1/2. A quantized answer.   :-)
>
> >
> >Not True, Horace, draw a set of  Sine and Cosine curves and their
> >180 degree opposites on a transparency, then lay them over
> >each other in different combinations. Then take into account
> >energy-mass/amplitude and frequency/wavelength. (v = c, a constant).
> >Then try to prove that neutrinos are neutral.   :-)
>
>
> Again, any force proportional to cos x1 and sin x2 averaged over time
> approaches zero os time --> inf.  Only if a lock-step relation is
preserved
> can you get a net force from coulomb attraction.

For time to be infinite, the frequency of  a particle would have to be ZERO!

I think you just made the case for neutrinos having a charge.    :-)

For instance, the frequency of an Electron or Positron is ~4.26E22 Hz and
is directly related to the mass of the Quarks (612*4.26E22) for the
average Quark in any nucleus. The frequency of a rest mass neutrino would
be ~ 0.3/(0.510E6)* 4.26E22 ~= 2.5E16 Hz and for the 612 mev
frequency of the quarks in a nucleus, there is a much greater "mismatch",
keeping in mind that CHARGE (irrespective of phase)IS
RELATIVISTICALLY INVARIANT. Thus the rules of engagement for
neutrinos and particles apply at all neutrino energies.

2*pi*R = the wavelength (Lambda) of an oscillating IN
LENGTH ONLY, Superstring or String Circle or Neutrino, where the
AMPLITUDE =  R..
>
>
> Protons and electrons "zipping through nucleii" are deflected or
> disruptive.  Photons zip though each other as do neutrinos, regardless of
> energy.

Read up on Hirsch's work on this, ca. 1979.

Regards,   Frederick
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 16:25:24 1999
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I didn't read this post previously, I guess that idea was already thought of...

Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >At 8:32 AM 10/11/99, John Schnurer wrote:
> >>        Dear H.
> >>
> >>        The lens in the middle twists the plane of polarization.
> >>        This is also a well known method of analysing many transparent
> >>materials.
> >>        EXP:  Take some clear cellophane ... cigarette clear package
> >>wrapping works very well... and fold so you have a mish-mash of 1 or 3 or
> >>2 or 5 layers.... and put THIS between the two filters....
> >>        Very pretty colors.
> >>
> >
> >
> >This is not an adequate explanation of the results because it does not
> >explain why, when you remove one of the lenses, the light passed is less as
> >you rotate away from mutual alignmen of the polarization axes of the
> >remaining two filters.  For example, if you remove the closest lens, rotate
> >the middle filter from alignment with the first lens the light becomes
> >less.  The polarization is not rotated, it is further filtered when you
> >have only the first filter and middle filter.
>
> ***{It is filtered *and* rotated, Horace. That is: the photons that pass
> through a polarizing lens are a subset of those that approached it from the
> other side, hence filtration occurs. In addition, the planes of
> polarization of the photons that pass through are brought into better
> alignment with the axis of polarization of the filter, by virtue of having
> passed through it. Result: you can have a series of polarizing lenses, each
> of which is twisted at a small angle from the preceding one, and come out
> at the end with light that is polarized 90 degrees to the orientation of
> the first lens! (I recall reading about this effect many years ago, in a
> *Scientific American* article, I think.) What this proves is that the plane
> of polarization is, indeed, twisted as light passes through a polarizing
> lens, exactly as John indicated. Bottom line: QM is *not* required to
> explain this effect. (Or *any* effect, for that matter. :-) --MJ}***
>
> Same is true when you have
> >only the middle and outer filter, or the two outer filters.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Horace Heffner
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 16:38:23 1999
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Because we both had similar posts I will reply as though this were to me.

Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 11:15 AM 10/11/99, Mitchell Jones wrote:
> >>At 8:32 AM 10/11/99, John Schnurer wrote:
> >>>        Dear H.
> >>>
> >>>        The lens in the middle twists the plane of polarization.
> >>>        This is also a well known method of analysing many transparent
> >>>materials.
> >>>        EXP:  Take some clear cellophane ... cigarette clear package
> >>>wrapping works very well... and fold so you have a mish-mash of 1 or 3 or
> >>>2 or 5 layers.... and put THIS between the two filters....
> >>>        Very pretty colors.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>This is not an adequate explanation of the results because it does not
> >>explain why, when you remove one of the lenses, the light passed is less as
> >>you rotate away from mutual alignmen of the polarization axes of the
> >>remaining two filters.  For example, if you remove the closest lens, rotate
> >>the middle filter from alignment with the first lens the light becomes
> >>less.  The polarization is not rotated, it is further filtered when you
> >>have only the first filter and middle filter.
> >
> >***{It is filtered *and* rotated, Horace.
>
> You fail to show which way the photon is rotated.  Don't forget that single
> photons going through one at a time are counted (observed) by the same
> intensity rules governing large quantities of light.  Therefore "filtering
> and rotating" does not explain the phenomenon. Filtering does not apply to
> one photon at a time.  If a filter rotates photons, to what angle does it
> rotate them?  Does it in one circumstance rotate one way and in another
> circumstance (context) rotate another?

I think what we are both trying to say is that photons whose alignments are close
to the filters axis can be rotated to become totally inline.
The light is rotated either right or left which ever direction is needed to have
it aligned with the filter, as it passes into the next lens it has already been
shifted a few degrees and so it is shifted again to become aligned to the new
filter, the percentage of photons that would have been absorbed if it had not
previously pasted through the previous filter would have been greater.

This works just as well of lone photons as it does for light lots of light.

>
>
> >That is: the photons that pass
> >through a polarizing lens are a subset of those that approached it from the
> >other side, hence filtration occurs. In addition, the planes of
> >polarization of the photons that pass through are brought into better
> >alignment with the axis of polarization of the filter, by virtue of having
> >passed through it. Result: you can have a series of polarizing lenses, each
> >of which is twisted at a small angle from the preceding one, and come out
> >at the end with light that is polarized 90 degrees to the orientation of
> >the first lens! (I recall reading about this effect many years ago, in a
> >*Scientific American* article, I think.) What this proves is that the plane
> >of polarization is, indeed, twisted as light passes through a polarizing
> >lens, exactly as John indicated. Bottom line: QM is *not* required to
> >explain this effect. (Or *any* effect, for that matter. :-) --MJ}***
>
> Wrong.  You can place a series of polarizing filters that twist one way and
> a series that twist the other (yes in the aggregate the light polarization
> is rotated) but how is it single photons go through the whole bunch of
> filters?

the photon is slowly rotated by each lens by a few degrees, what is the problem?

>  There is no "filtering" effect for single photons.  Each photon
> individually makes it through the gauntlet.  Do you say they are rotated
> one way by some filters and the other way by others magically and in the
> correct order to match the alignment chosen for the multiple filters?

Yet again the filter shifts the light to it's polarization. (in this theory)

>
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 16:41:52 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 19:32:27 EDT
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Akira,

Did you get the questions asked and answers given on your videotape?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 17:08:46 1999
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Subject: Re: Experiment requiring QM explanation?
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At 12:27 PM 10/12/99, John Berry wrote:

>I think what we are both trying to say is that photons whose alignments
>are close
>to the filters axis can be rotated to become totally inline.
>The light is rotated either right or left which ever direction is needed
>to have
>it aligned with the filter, as it passes into the next lens it has already been
>shifted a few degrees

Well, it has to do this over a wide range of angles and according to Malus'
law, I = I0 cos^2 theta.


>and so it is shifted again to become aligned to the new
>filter, the percentage of photons that would have been absorbed if it had not
>previously pasted through the previous filter would have been greater.
>
>This works just as well of lone photons as it does for light lots of light.


OK, well then macro level is good enough!  8^)


>
>the photon is slowly rotated by each lens by a few degrees, what is the
>problem?
>
>>  There is no "filtering" effect for single photons.  Each photon
>> individually makes it through the gauntlet.  Do you say they are rotated
>> one way by some filters and the other way by others magically and in the
>> correct order to match the alignment chosen for the multiple filters?
>
>Yet again the filter shifts the light to it's polarization. (in this theory)
>


If two filters are coaligned (theta=zero) the transmission is (nearly) 100
percent (I = I0*(cos^2 theta) = I0*(1) = I0).  If we say a filter rotates
the polarization by some randomized or diffraction like process, then how
can the second and even third aligned filters pass nearly 100 percent of
the light?  The light is not perturbed by a second or third pass through an
aligned filter, so it is not randomized or the product of a randomized
process or a fudge due to some systematic error in the polarization grid.
It is a process which is fairly pure experimentally speaking.

Yet a subsequent filter at 45 degrees to the first will pass about 50
percent of the light, and only 50 percent of the light, and in general at
any relative angle theta we have I = I0*(cos^2 theta).  The light leaving a
subsequent filter is polarized in alignment with that filter.  A subsequent
filter aligned with that alignment will passs nearly 100 percent of the
remaining light, yet any filter at 90 deg. to the prior will cancel all the
light.

Given that the process is not random, we are left with the question: by
what mechanism is a precise amount of light selected and rotated to exactly
the right orientation and passed in perfect alignment with the filter?  You
are invoking some magic process that can take a photon and rotate its
polarization 45 deg. in one direction in one filter and then 45 deg. back
in a subsequent  identical filter, and do this to 25 percent of the photons
passing through two properly aligned filters.  This is a process for which
there is no Maxwellian explanation.

Or maybe you have one?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Horace Heffner wrote:

>Obviously, pointing out a violation of the rules is not a personal attack,
>but business of the list, especially if correct.   Although we have had
>much more flagrant offenses, a call for observance of the rules should be
>respected IMHO.

Hear, hear! As a FFV (Frequent Flagrant Violator) I agree. (That's
Flagrant, not Fragrant.) Let's keep religion and politics out of here.

- Jed

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Mill's ACS papers
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Tstolper aol.com wrote:

>Did you get the questions asked and answers given on your videotape?

Betcha can't hear the questions, just the answers. That's the trouble with
recording conference sessions. That's been my experience with tapes. I wish
people would pass around the mike at these meetings.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 17:46:00 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:42:00 +1300
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
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Ok, If you have a filter, and another filter at a 45 degree angle half the light
passes through right?
If you have a third at another 45 degrees (90deg with respect to the first) it would
appear that it should only let half the remaining light through (assuming my first
assumption was connect) which is only quarter of the original light which passes
through the first filter.
Are you saying that more than half the original light gets through?
If so it would seem that a quantum answer is in order.

I don't fully understand your
Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 12:27 PM 10/12/99, John Berry wrote:
>
> >I think what we are both trying to say is that photons whose alignments
> >are close
> >to the filters axis can be rotated to become totally inline.
> >The light is rotated either right or left which ever direction is needed
> >to have
> >it aligned with the filter, as it passes into the next lens it has already been
> >shifted a few degrees
>
> Well, it has to do this over a wide range of angles and according to Malus'
> law, I = I0 cos^2 theta.
>
> >and so it is shifted again to become aligned to the new
> >filter, the percentage of photons that would have been absorbed if it had not
> >previously pasted through the previous filter would have been greater.
> >
> >This works just as well of lone photons as it does for light lots of light.
>
> OK, well then macro level is good enough!  8^)
>
> >
> >the photon is slowly rotated by each lens by a few degrees, what is the
> >problem?
> >
> >>  There is no "filtering" effect for single photons.  Each photon
> >> individually makes it through the gauntlet.  Do you say they are rotated
> >> one way by some filters and the other way by others magically and in the
> >> correct order to match the alignment chosen for the multiple filters?
> >
> >Yet again the filter shifts the light to it's polarization. (in this theory)
> >
>
> If two filters are coaligned (theta=zero) the transmission is (nearly) 100
> percent (I = I0*(cos^2 theta) = I0*(1) = I0).  If we say a filter rotates
> the polarization by some randomized or diffraction like process, then how
> can the second and even third aligned filters pass nearly 100 percent of
> the light?

It's chance of being absorbed or shifted depends on how close it is, if the light is
aligned with the filter it will pass all of it, If it has an angle of say 22.5
relative to the filter we may guess that 25 percent will be absorbed and the
remainder transmitted, at 45 degrees we could guess that 50% of light makes it, at
80 degrees a very small percentage would make it. (this is assuming a simple linear
scale which may not be the case)
It the light is virtually aligned with the filter the chance of it not making it are
very slim, 99.9 percent of the light should pass.

>  The light is not perturbed by a second or third pass through an
> aligned filter, so it is not randomized or the product of a randomized
> process or a fudge due to some systematic error in the polarization grid.
> It is a process which is fairly pure experimentally speaking.

Why would any light be absorbed if it was all aligned with the filter?

>
>
> Yet a subsequent filter at 45 degrees to the first will pass about 50
> percent of the light, and only 50 percent of the light, and in general at
> any relative angle theta we have I = I0*(cos^2 theta).  The light leaving a
> subsequent filter is polarized in alignment with that filter.  A subsequent
> filter aligned with that alignment will passs nearly 100 percent of the
> remaining light, yet any filter at 90 deg. to the prior will cancel all the
> light.

because if the filter is aligned the chance of being absorbed are near zero, and at
90 degrees the chance of getting through is near zero.

>
>
> Given that the process is not random, we are left with the question: by
> what mechanism is a precise amount of light selected and rotated to exactly
> the right orientation and passed in perfect alignment with the filter?

are you asking "why does it rotate the light?" I am not sure, I don't know how
magneto optical rotation works either, Do I need to understand the mechanism that
rotates the the light or just understand it's rules?

>  You
> are invoking some magic process that can take a photon and rotate its
> polarization 45 deg. in one direction in one filter and then 45 deg. back
> in a subsequent  identical filter, and do this to 25 percent of the photons
> passing through two properly aligned filters.  This is a process for which
> there is no Maxwellian explanation.

what's the problem? a photon that is at 45 degrees relative to the filter axis has a
50 percent chance of passing through being aligned to a new axis.

So the photon comes through filter 1
The photon is at 45 degrees relative to the second filter, there is a 50% chance it
will be absorbed.
if it passes through it will leave with it's new polarization which is that of the
second filter.
it now heads for the third filter which is 90 degrees relative to the first filter
but only 45 degrees relative to it's new polarization so there is a 50 percent
chance it will be absorbed, Otherwise it is transmitted.
Only 25 percent of the light that left the first lens will leave the third.

What is wrong with this theory? I must be missing something as you seem to know much
more on the subject that I but i really can't understand your objections.

It seems you simply want to know how the light is rotated, maybe it is absorbed by
the lens and re-emitted with the correct polarization, maybe there is some field,
but I see no need to invoke (or do I mean evoke?) quantum physics. (though you can
to explain the method by which it creates rotation of the photon)

>
>
> Or maybe you have one?
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 18:05:05 1999
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: VORTEXIJAH: An Introduction To Light Body Star Ship Field Propulsion
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----- Original Message -----
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 1999 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: VORTEXIJAH: An Introduction To Light Body Star Ship Field
Propulsion

Jed wrote:


> Horace Heffner wrote:
>
> >Obviously, pointing out a violation of the rules is not a personal
attack,
> >but business of the list, especially if correct.   Although we have had
> >much more flagrant offenses, a call for observance of the rules should be
> >respected IMHO.
>
> Hear, hear! As a FFV (Frequent Flagrant Violator) I agree. (That's
> Flagrant, not Fragrant.) Let's keep religion and politics out of here.

Agreed, but I must say this.  Many years ago a * voice* told me
"get a wife" .  I complied, only to find out  much later that I had
misunderstood.
The *voice* had told me "GET A LIFE".

Regards,    Frederick

>
> - Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 18:34:20 1999
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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 cwnet.com>
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FWIW (and it's very little):

Recently, some posts appeared on Vortex professing an interest in reviving the Howard Johnson
permanent magnet motor (hope springs eternal).

Personally, I doubt that the basic permanent magnet motor could ever amount to anything substantial,
but on the other hand, it might well be a great curiosity item and valuable for that reason alone.

Actually, I have seen a PMM that could be made to self rotate, but then again I was not allowed to
inspect it closely so I assume it was somehow rigged.

Anyway, while perusing the e-bay auction site, I ran across this sale:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=176887954

The most interesting thing about these magnets is not that they can be arranged in Johnson's unusual
curvature, but that they have a 12,900 gauss field strength!
This is the largest I have seen for a cheap permanent magnet. Anyone who has ever tried to engineer
an electromagnet to this strength probably can't help but wonder why this route shouldn't be the
quick and easy way to OU.

However, my suggestion to those dabblers who are still pursuing Johnson's motor is to jump up a
level and concentrate on the various "flux gate" or parametric methods of massively shifting a
magnetic field in space with low energy investment.

Regards.
Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 11 22:22:43 1999
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Oct. 11, 1999

Tom,

yes. Whatever that was asked, whatever that was the answer. Straight
through. It's good sound. There is even a constant low background noise
of  the air conditioning system added in..

-ak-

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Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 23:10:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Experiment requiring QM explanation?
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This effect can be explained satisfactorily by both classical EM and by
quantum mechanics.

This is basically correct QM picture:
>a photon that is at 45 degrees relative to the filter axis has a
>50 percent chance of passing through being aligned to a new axis.
>So the photon comes through filter 1. The photon is at 45 degrees relative 
>to the second filter, there is a 50% chance it will be absorbed.
>if it passes through it will leave with it's new polarization which is that
>of the second filter.
>it now heads for the third filter which is 90 degrees relative to the first
>filter
>but only 45 degrees relative to it's new polarization so there is a 50
>percent chance it will be absorbed, Otherwise it is transmitted.
>Only 25 percent of the light that left the first lens will leave the third.

For classical EM, it is just a matter of projection of the wave polarization
vector (conventionally taken as the direction of the E field). The first
polarizer lets only waves with a certain E direction through. The second
polarizer at 45 deg to it lets 1/sqrt(2) of the E vector through (one
component of a vector at 45 deg), but light intensity (power) is E^2, so the
intensity is reduced by 1/half. Of course, this light has its E at the angel
of the new polarizer, 45 deg to what it was after the first polarizer. The
third polarizer just does the same thing again to the light that got through
the first polarizer. Etc., etc.

=====
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 00:46:32 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Experiment requiring QM explanation?
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At 11:10 PM 10/11/99, Michael Schaffer wrote:
>This effect can be explained satisfactorily by both classical EM and by
>quantum mechanics.

Predicted in bulk, but not explained I think.


>
>This is basically correct QM picture:
>>a photon that is at 45 degrees relative to the filter axis has a
>>50 percent chance of passing through being aligned to a new axis.
>>So the photon comes through filter 1. The photon is at 45 degrees relative
>>to the second filter, there is a 50% chance it will be absorbed.
>>if it passes through it will leave with it's new polarization which is that
>>of the second filter.
>>it now heads for the third filter which is 90 degrees relative to the first
>>filter
>>but only 45 degrees relative to it's new polarization so there is a 50
>>percent chance it will be absorbed, Otherwise it is transmitted.
>>Only 25 percent of the light that left the first lens will leave the third.


This is all a rehash of Malus' law, I = I0*(cos^2 theta).  It does nothing
to descibe how the polarization is changed, how the photons are reoriented.



>
>For classical EM, it is just a matter of projection of the wave polarization
>vector (conventionally taken as the direction of the E field). The first
>polarizer lets only waves with a certain E direction through.


This is not totally correct in the sense that first filter reorients a
large percentage of the incoming randomly oriented unpolarized light, but I
don't think you meant to addess that aspect with your comment as you are
just establishing initial conditions.   Still I think it is important to
note that if the first filter only let incoming waves with a certain
polarization vector through there would be almost no light through the
first filter.  The filter actively engages in changing the state of the
waves passing through.


>The second
>polarizer at 45 deg to it lets 1/sqrt(2) of the E vector through (one
>component of a vector at 45 deg), but light intensity (power) is E^2, so the
>intensity is reduced by 1/half.


Considering photons, the energy of each photon remains the same.  The
energy adjustment has to occur by controlling the photon count.  Classical
EM has no mechanism to handle this once events become discrete, true?


>Of course, this light has its E at the angel
>of the new polarizer, 45 deg to what it was after the first polarizer. The
>third polarizer just does the same thing again to the light that got through
>the first polarizer. Etc., etc.


In both cases I think this is merely repeating the RESULTS given by Malus'
law, I = I0*(cos^2 theta) or other laws without accounting for how the
waveforms are actually bent into the required orientation and with just the
right photon counts.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 01:29:46 1999
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	Who is Vera Rubin?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 01:46:31 1999
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On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, John Schnurer wrote:

> 
> 	Who is Vera Rubin?
> 

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	Great description... thanks!

>From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>

>clear, and quite ordinary. To explain that statement, let me break the
>analysis down a bit. Suppose you cut a flat circular disk from a piece of
>aluminum sheet, position an electric motor so that its shaft points
>straight up, mount the disk so it is centered on that shaft, and start it
>spinning at 3600 rpm. Result: air molecules that contact the surface of the
>spinning disk will be thrown down the tangents to the concentric circles at
>the points of contact. Since all tangents, when extended, lead away from
>the center of rotation, it follows that we will have air flow outward from
>the center of rotation along the surface of the spinning disk. Thus if we
>arrange a series of concentric ridges on the top surface of the disk and
>cut holes on the near sides of the ridges (the sides closest to the center
>of the disk), then the outward flow of air along the top surface of the
>disk will, when it encounters the holes, pass from the top of the disk to
>the bottom, before continuing on its outward course. Result: now we have
>air flow from the top of the disk to the bottom, which will generate lift.
>That means if we mount such a "Schauberger disk" with its edge flush
>against the inside of a paraboloid bell housing, punch a hole at the center
>of the housing to permit air to enter, and set the disk to rotating, air
>will flow in at the center of the bell housing, downward through the
>rotating "Schauberger disk," and out of the bottom of the bell housing,
>causing the entire apparatus to lift itself into the air. Thus we will have
>a "Schauberger flying saucer." To which I say: "So what?" Where is the
>mystery about the performance of this device? --Mitchell Jones}***

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	Dear Vo.,

	If I have the terminology wrong, let me know .... I am trying to
say this for the lay person... and if you can help me say it better,
please do.

	QM is Quantum Mechanics and is a theory and mathmatical set of
rules which is partly worked out.
	Is this so.... or is ALL the math for all situations worked out?

	One of the basic ideas of the theory is that position, mass,
energy might be predicted .... within limits and the limits involve the
smallest possible change... a quantum.

	...so a quantum leap is the tinyest step or leap you can make

	OK?

	Q: Does QM say there are no smooth and infinitely variable
predictions... but they must come in 'little jumps' ...the quanta?


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 04:37:28 1999
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From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ca-ois.com>
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Vortex-

I have been looking into Marshall Barnes's claims about the
"Phildalelphia Experiment", which it is alleged a Navy ship was
caused to disappear during WWII. 

In an archive of one of Barnes's chats, there is the following
reference:

                                 Marshall Barnes - OK. JimS, the
                                 photos don't show light refracted
                                 *around* the object. The refraction
                                 causes the light from above and on
                                 the sides to reflect in front of the
                                 object. If light was refracting
                                 around it would cause an entirely
                                 different effect as far as it being
                                 done with magnetism, it has to
                                 involve an EMF strong enough to
                                 create the right conditions in the
                                 air for refraction to occur. I saw
                                 that in 1994 near Wright Patterson
                                 and Paul Hill talks about it...

                                 Marshall Barnes - In his book
                                 Unconventional Flying Objects, etc,
                                 etc. All you have to do is
                                 understand how mirages work and what
                                 kinds of things intense EMF can do
                                 and it's pretty obvious that it
                                 could. No rocket science here.

                                 Marshall Barnes - There's a review
                              -> that Aviary member, Hal Putoff did <-
                                 for the National Institute of
                                 Discovery Science. Go to their site
                                 and look up the review of Paul's
                                 book. Puthoff unwittingly confirms
                                 the physics part that deals with
                                 obscuring the lines of UFOs through
                                 the plasma sheath that surrounds the
                                 craft. This sheath involves
                                 absorption of light as well as
                                 refraction breakdown of the air the
                                 way Rinehart described it. You take
                                 that field and manipulate it so that
                                 it has the right properties and
                                 you'll get pretty damn close.

I've read elsewhere is research of this subject that "Aviary" has
something to do with efforts to discredit people who get too close to
the truth about things that might embarrass the gov't. That is about all
I know about it so far. If Dr. Puthoff would care to comment about the 
above reference to "Aviary", or any of the context surrounding please
post
these comments online.

Jim Ostrowski

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	Dear Vo.,

	Question to all about text below....
	Normally I would cut to save BW, 
	But I want to retain context.

	Please see flag in text, below

_____________________________________________


On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> Vortex-
> 
> I have been looking into Marshall Barnes's claims about the
> "Phildalelphia Experiment", which it is alleged a Navy ship was
> caused to disappear during WWII. 
> 
> In an archive of one of Barnes's chats, there is the following
> reference:
> 
>                                  Marshall Barnes - OK. JimS, the
>                                  photos don't show light refracted
>                                  *around* the object. The refraction
>                                  causes the light from above and on
>                                  the sides to reflect in front of the
>                                  object. If light was refracting
>                                  around it would cause an entirely
>                                  different effect as far as it being
>                                  done with magnetism, it has to
>                                  involve an EMF strong enough to
>                                  create the right conditions in the
>                                  air for refraction to occur. I saw
>                                  that in 1994 near Wright Patterson
>                                  and Paul Hill talks about it...
> 

	FLAG .........  NOTE, line above....

	Who is Paul Hill?   Who is Marshall Barnes?
	Any E mail address for either of these folks?

		Thanks,

				John

_____________________________
>                                  Marshall Barnes - In his book
>                                  Unconventional Flying Objects, etc,
>                                  etc. All you have to do is
>                                  understand how mirages work and what
>                                  kinds of things intense EMF can do
>                                  and it's pretty obvious that it
>                                  could. No rocket science here.
> 
>                                  Marshall Barnes - There's a review
>                               -> that Aviary member, Hal Putoff did <-
>                                  for the National Institute of
>                                  Discovery Science. Go to their site
>                                  and look up the review of Paul's
>                                  book. Puthoff unwittingly confirms
>                                  the physics part that deals with
>                                  obscuring the lines of UFOs through
>                                  the plasma sheath that surrounds the
>                                  craft. This sheath involves
>                                  absorption of light as well as
>                                  refraction breakdown of the air the
>                                  way Rinehart described it. You take
>                                  that field and manipulate it so that
>                                  it has the right properties and
>                                  you'll get pretty damn close.
> 
> I've read elsewhere is research of this subject that "Aviary" has
> something to do with efforts to discredit people who get too close to
> the truth about things that might embarrass the gov't. That is about all
> I know about it so far. If Dr. Puthoff would care to comment about the 
> above reference to "Aviary", or any of the context surrounding please
> post
> these comments online.
> 
> Jim Ostrowski
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 06:18:08 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:21:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: PINE Guys...
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.991012092024.841D-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
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	Dear Vo.,

	Can one of the PINE experts tell me BBGB how to archive stuff in
PINE...
	Remember.... I am idiot and you need to lead me by the hand...


			Thanks and please,

		John

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 06:28:46 1999
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No better expert on the alleged Aviary exists than Dan Smith, aka
Chicken Little.  An exemplary article from his web site can be
found at:

http://www.clark.net/pub/dansmith/aquarium.html

Enjoy!

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 06:41:41 1999
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Subject: Re: Experiment requiring QM explanation?
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>At 11:10 PM 10/11/99, Michael Schaffer wrote:
>>This effect can be explained satisfactorily by both classical EM and by
>>quantum mechanics.
>
>Predicted in bulk, but not explained I think.
>
>
>>
>>This is basically correct QM picture:
>>>a photon that is at 45 degrees relative to the filter axis has a
>>>50 percent chance of passing through being aligned to a new axis.
>>>So the photon comes through filter 1. The photon is at 45 degrees relative
>>>to the second filter, there is a 50% chance it will be absorbed.
>>>if it passes through it will leave with it's new polarization which is that
>>>of the second filter.
>>>it now heads for the third filter which is 90 degrees relative to the first
>>>filter
>>>but only 45 degrees relative to it's new polarization so there is a 50
>>>percent chance it will be absorbed, Otherwise it is transmitted.
>>>Only 25 percent of the light that left the first lens will leave the third.
>
>
>This is all a rehash of Malus' law, I = I0*(cos^2 theta).  It does nothing
>to descibe how the polarization is changed, how the photons are reoriented.

***{They are reoriented magnetically. To understand how this happens, you
need two visual models, one representing a photon, and the other
representing the internal structure of a polarizing lens. Consider,
therefore, the following:

(1) To develop a visual model of a photon, imagine a planet with a rocky
core and an enormously deep atmosphere, in which the atmosphere is filled
with negatively or positively charged sand particles (but not both).
Imagine further that the planet in question is spinning at such an enormous
velocity that the atmosphere shrinks in at the poles and expands outward at
the equator, forming a huge spinning disk. Now, since the disk consists of
charged particles moving around it in circles, there will be a very
powerful magnetic field with its axis aligned perpendicular to the plane of
the disk. If we now shrink this planet to the size of a photon and move it
through space at the speed of light, it becomes an excellent visual model
of a photon.

(2) To develop a visual model of the internal structure of a polarizing
lens, you need to understand how Edwin Land (the college dropout who
founded Polaroid Corp.) created the first artificial polarizing lens. What
he did was suspend millions of microscopic herapathite crystals (a
polarizing substance) in a solution of nitrocellulose lacquer. The solution
was contained in a transparent cylinder of glass a half inch in diameter
and a quarter inch thick. Naturally, the millions of tiny crystals were
randomly oriented in the solution, and the solution took on the
reddish-black color of the crystals and was quite opaque. Land, however,
had studied the experimental papers of Michael Faraday, who had discovered
that the plane of polarized light was deflected to match the orientation of
a magnetic field. Result: Land placed his solution within a powerful
electromagnet that could generate a field of 10,000 gauss, and, when he
turned it on, he discovered that "slowly and somewhat sluggishly the cell
became lighter and quite transparent" and that "when we examined the
transmitted light with a nicol prism, it went from white to black as the
prism was turned." [*Land's Polaroid*, by Peter Wensberg, pg. 34]

So there you have it: a photon is a spinning disk of electric microcharges,
and has a magnetic dipole oriented perpendicular to the plane of those
microcharges; and a polarizing lens consists of molecules that also have
magnetic poles, and which were forcibly aligned by means of a powerful
magnetic field, prior to solidification into that lens. Result: when a
photon passes through a polarizing lens, its magnetic field naturally
aligns to match the magnetic field within the lens through which it is
passing.

--Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 07:56:48 1999
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 6:29 AM
Subject: Re: Vorts/Hal Puthoff: What is "Aviary"

Please! Take this BULL SHIT to vortexb.


> No better expert on the alleged Aviary exists than Dan Smith, aka
> Chicken Little.  An exemplary article from his web site can be
> found at:
> 
> http://www.clark.net/pub/dansmith/aquarium.html
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> Terry
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 08:27:32 1999
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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
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Hey,

I just got back from a three day weekend and no mail, none, nada.

Wassup, is it just me or what?

Bill
webriggs concentric.net
briggs XLNsystems.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 08:42:08 1999
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----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
To: vortex-l <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 8:21 AM
Subject: Test

Bill Briggs wrote:


> Hey,
>
> I just got back from a three day weekend and no mail, none, nada.
>
> Wassup, is it just me or what?

Sounds like someone raided your mailbox, Bill.   :-)

Or, it might be Stealthed like the "Philadelphia" ship that was covered
with angled sheet-steel plates to see if it could be made "invisible" to
Radar.  :-)

Regards,      Frederick

> Bill
> webriggs concentric.net
> briggs XLNsystems.com
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 09:10:36 1999
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>Hey,
>
>I just got back from a three day weekend and no mail, none, nada.
>
>Wassup, is it just me or what?

***{No. You should have lots of mail from vortex. If you don't, there is a
problem somewhere.

By the way: when you title something as "Test," I suspect that most people
don't bother to read it. (I normally don't.) Most "Test" messages are sent
out by people (e.g., new subscribers) who merely want to determine whether
a post will come back to them from the vortex server. Thus it is better to
use a descriptive title if you want people to read and reply.

--MJ}***

>
>Bill
>webriggs concentric.net
>briggs XLNsystems.com


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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To: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 8:56 AM
Subject: Mr.Wakeup.com


> I use this service to remind me of appointments.  
> 
>  http://www.mrwakeup.com/
> 

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[DEFAULT]
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[DOC#5#6#7]
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 09:46:04 1999
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Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 6:29 AM
> Subject: Re: Vorts/Hal Puthoff: What is "Aviary"
> 
> Please! Take this BULL SHIT to vortexb.
> 

Hey, stick it in your biomass generator!  :-)

I was just answering a question.

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: Vorts/Hal Puthoff: What is "Aviary"

Terry wrote:
> 
> Hey, stick it in your biomass generator!  :-)

LOL! Good one, Terry.  :-)
> 
> I was just answering a question.

That's what gets these offbeat threads perpetuated.
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 10:01:55 1999
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Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 6:29 AM
> Subject: Re: Vorts/Hal Puthoff: What is "Aviary"
> 
> Please! Take this BULL SHIT to vortexb.

Hello, Frederick.

The inquiries I am making are intended to try and piece together the
experimental procedure for duplicating the alleged configuration of the
so called "Philadelphia 
Experiment". There has been progress. Since the subject of experimental
configurations
involving electromagnetic fields and the like is a fit topic for this
forum (vortex-l)
I plan to continue to post things related to this effort to vortex-l.
Sorry if this bothers you.

Cheers,

Jim Ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 10:02:45 1999
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John Schnurer wrote:
> 
>                                                                I saw
> >                                  that in 1994 near Wright Patterson
> >                                  and Paul Hill talks about it...
> >
> 
>         FLAG .........  NOTE, line above....
> 
>         Who is Paul Hill? 

I don't know.

>  Who is Marshall Barnes?
>

You can read a report about his activities by Joe Turner at:

http://www.viewzone.com/philadelphia.html

I'm sorry if you still do not have web access, John. I have suggested
before that if you were on a unix based system that such systems usually
provide LYNX, a text based web access program. Have you tried that yet?

         Any E mail address for either of these folks?

I will post it (Marshall Barnes' email) here later after I confirm that
it is current.

> 
>                 Thanks,

You're welcome.

Jim O.


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ca-ois.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: Vorts/Hal Puthoff: What is "Aviary"

J.O wrote:
> 
> Hello, Frederick.
> 
> The inquiries I am making are intended to try and piece together the
> experimental procedure for duplicating the alleged configuration of the
> so called "Philadelphia 
> Experiment". There has been progress. Since the subject of experimental
> configurations
> involving electromagnetic fields and the like is a fit topic for this
> forum (vortex-l)
> I plan to continue to post things related to this effort to vortex-l.
> Sorry if this bothers you.

Fine, if you stick to science, and NOT UFOLOGY paranoia.

The "Philadelphia" experiment was an early test of trying to RADAR STEALTH
A SHIP by putting deflector plates on it. So what is the big deal?

FJS
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jim Ostrowski
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 10:15:28 1999
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Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> 
> The inquiries I am making are intended to try and piece together the
> experimental procedure for duplicating the alleged configuration of the
> so called "Philadelphia
> Experiment". There has been progress. Since the subject of experimental
> configurations
> involving electromagnetic fields and the like is a fit topic for this
> forum (vortex-l)
> I plan to continue to post things related to this effort to vortex-l.
> Sorry if this bothers you.

I agree that the technology itself is topical.  Indeed, I have
had some discussions on this topic with Dr. Bruce Maccabee (aka
Seagull :-), former researcher at the Naval Weapons Lab (retired)
in Maryland.  He believes that the anecdotal evidence regarding
the USS Eldridge is a result of a degaussing experiment which was
conducted in this time frame.  They embedded the hulls with
cables and passed varying currents through these cables in order
to reduce the ships' susceptibility to magnetic mines.  I have
his email address if you would like to talk to him directly on
this.  He has done a good deal of research on this.  Dr. Maccabee
is very approachable even if he is in the Aviary.

Terry (aka Albatross)  ;-)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 10:17:21 1999
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At 04:33 AM 10/12/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>	Who is Vera Rubin?

An astro physicist.  See,   Bright Galaxies, Dark Matters

She and her team discovered the dark matter problem.

rt

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 11:40:12 1999
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Subject: Re: Vorts/Hal Puthoff: What is "Aviary"
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Jim -

I've never played with the optical properties of a sheath of glow or plasma
from HV, but it would certainly seem like something that could cause some
fairly intense optical distortions if strong enough. If it does, then it's
almost a no-brainer to make some attempt at optical cloaking for ships etc.
As I'm sure you know it's been publicly revealed that ordinary lights have
been used in daytime camoflage experiments on vehicles.

Years ago while hang gliding off sea cliffs here in the early evening, I was
flying low near some high voltage lines that came up to a point on the top
of the cliff. While moving from dry air to a puff of moist air drifting up
from the waves below, I experienced a strange electrical discharge
phenomena. I suspected St. Elmo's fire, but the aluminum spars had no
concentration of light at their tips. The strange thing about the discharge
was that it was an even glow surrounding the entire glider in a spherical
shape, according to observers on the ground. I specifically asked about the
shape. It just doesn't seem right, as I would have guessed a closer
following of the contours of the metal and human components would have
occured. But if it were a reproducible effect, it would seem to be useful
for hiding things within it. The image of the "transporter beam" in the old
Star Trek might describe its texture best, bluish white and slightly
sparkly. I do recall that the view through the light was a bit obscured,
like I had light reflections in my glasses (my very first thought as the
phenomena commenced), and I bobbed my head around to try to see past it
before realizing that it was a real fog of light surrounding me. That means
that the view of the glider was probably to some degree obscured from the
ground, but I don't recall any specific witness comments to that effect.
They just said that I was surrounded by a bluish sphere of light and it was
really weird. Don't know if there's any connection, but a full moon was just
rising at the time.

The experience did teach me one thing: some UFO reports involving glowing
spheres which might seem quite extraordinary at first could be mundane at
their core, and simply involve strange electrical activity connected with
birds, airborne debris, etc. "Strange electrical activity" seems like a
perfect skeptic's brush for sweeping away quite a bit of reported phenomena,
but I've seen it first hand. Hey for a few moments there, I *was* a UFO.

- Nene Goose
Honolulu, HI

---------------------------------------------------------------
> Hello, Frederick.
>
> The inquiries I am making are intended to try and piece together the
> experimental procedure for duplicating the alleged configuration of the
> so called "Philadelphia
> Experiment". There has been progress. Since the subject of experimental
> configurations
> involving electromagnetic fields and the like is a fit topic for this
> forum (vortex-l)
> I plan to continue to post things related to this effort to vortex-l.
> Sorry if this bothers you.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jim Ostrowski


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 11:51:29 1999
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

<snip>

> They just said that I was surrounded by a bluish sphere of light and it was
> really weird.

Same reason balled lightning is, well, balled?  

> - Nene Goose

LOL!  I'd forgotten!

-Alba

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 13:08:21 1999
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To: freenrg <freenrg-l eskimo.com>, vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: A new gravitation/unification paper (gr-qc/9910036)
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http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9910036
http://xxx.lanl.gov/html/gr-qc/9910036


Gravitation and Electromagnetism ;
Correlation and Grand Unification

Fran De Aquino

Physics Department, Maranhão State University, S. Luís, MA, Brazil.

It is demonstrated that gravitational and inertial masses are
correlated by an electromagnetic factor. From the practical point of
view this is very important because it means the possibility of
electromagnetic control of the gravity. Some theoretical
consequences of the correlation are: incorporation of Mach's
principle into Gravitation Theory; new relativistic expression for
the mass ; the generalization of Newton’s second law for the
motion; the deduction of the differential equation for entropy
directly from the Gravitation Theory. Another fundamental
consequence of the mentioned correlation is that , in specific
ultra-high energy conditions, the gravitational and electromagnetic
fields can be described by the same Hamiltonian , i.e., in these
circumstances, they are unified ! Such conditions can have
occurred inclusive in the Initial Universe , before the first
spontaneous breaking of symmetry.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 13:21:11 1999
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If you are thinking of flying your private corporate jet to visit me here
at the Peachtree airport, today would be a bad day. Normally you can park
behind the building or next-door, but today the lots are jammed. Next door
is a Douglas DC-3 reequipped with turboprop engines. It is from Chicago,
according to a British fellow. This normally placid airport is filled with
aerospace journalists, industry people, gawkers, buyers, buses, taxis and
limousines. There is a corporate jet tradeshow going on, with reportedly $1
billion worth of new hardware sitting out on the airstrips, surrounded by
tents and freebies. There are some weird looking airplanes out there! The
DC-3 is beautiful to look at -- I think I'll take some electronic photos of
it -- but I wouldn't want to ride in a 60-year-old airplane.

I suppose every industry in America must have a flashy tradeshow, even
undertakers. The tradeshow is an American institution, not seen in Japan.
In the electronics biz Japanese people come to our tradeshows.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 13:31:48 1999
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Subject: Re: Vorts/Hal Puthoff: What is "Aviary"
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Terry -


>> They just said that I was surrounded by a bluish sphere of light and it was
>> really weird.
>
> Same reason balled lightning is, well, balled?

Maybe that too. Our 'normal' idea about discharge is that it should follow
the contours of the electrode, and a freestanding sphere of glowing charge
doesn't make any sense in those 'normal' terms at all. So contortions like
fat toroids and other things are tried to make sense of a spherical ball of
light/electricity.

For all I know, the high voltage lines played no part in this, although it
would seem obvious that they would have. I don't even really know that it
was electricity, as odd as that sounds. We think "of course it was
electrical", but since it didn't behave like electricity as we generally
know it, strictly speaking it was unknown luminous phenomena. I don't think
I was ever closer to the lines than 75', and maybe not even that close. The
lines came up from behind the cliff to the clifftop pole, then generally
down again back behind the cliff. Gliders are always out in front of the
cliff and never behind, so I was not flying along the lines in a parallel
path at all, just going past that point where they came up to that one pole.
We usually flew much higher, the winds were very light that day.

>> - Nene Goose
>
> LOL!  I'd forgotten!
>
> -Alba

I know, I should have left it alone. <g>

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 20:22:14 1999
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From: Colin Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
Subject: Re: A new gravitation/unification paper (gr-qc/9910036)
Cc: <kfbrown worldnet.att.net>, <robert@skylink.net>
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Thanks, Hamdi.


Frederick and John, this is the final proof that rapid boiling
"levitates" coffee.  ;-)                      =20



  "...  However, only recently has it been discovered that
<italic><bigger>a particle=92s gravitational mass decreases with the
increasing

temperature</bigger></italic> and that only in absolute zero (T=3D0 K) are
gravitational mass and inertial mass equivalent...(7)" (gr-qc/9910036)



<bold><bigger>Seriously</bigger></bold>:=20

The statement is simply very interesting--  it was made as if we were all
supposed to know it.=20

Has anyone here read the reference? (7)=3D=3D> Donoghue, J.F, Holstein, B.R
(1987) European J. of Physics, 8,105.=20

What temperatures was he referencing for Mg variation detection? ~a
million degrees?  I hope not. ( I can't read the math :-()


To detect gravitational mass variations at only a few hundred degrees
above room temperature, the trick would be in firstly eliminating all
buoyancy effects, wouldn't it? The test mass would probably have to be
electrically heated inside a container insulated with very high R factor
indeed [with absolutely minimal T variation]. Has anyone ever tried that?
Why would I even think to do so, you ask? Well-- besides the above
reference.. I was wondering if there could be a gravitoelectric response
from thermal "agitation" of certain nuclei. The Wallace patents lead me
into this direction of thought.. and of course I'd use brass for the test
mass.


Someone <italic>please</italic> correct my faulty thinking.  :-)

Thanks,  Colin Quinney=20



At 11:03 PM 10/12/99 +0300, Hamdi wrote:

>http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9910036

>http://xxx.lanl.gov/html/gr-qc/9910036

>

>

>Gravitation and Electromagnetism ;

>Correlation and Grand Unification

>Fran De Aquino

>

>Physics Department, Maranh=E3o State University, S. Lu=EDs, MA, Brazil.

>

>It is demonstrated that gravitational and inertial masses are

>correlated by an electromagnetic factor. From the practical point of

>view this is very important because it means the possibility of

>electromagnetic control of the gravity. Some theoretical

>consequences of the correlation are: incorporation of Mach's

>principle into Gravitation Theory; new relativistic expression for

>the mass ; the generalization of Newton=92s second law for the

>motion; the deduction of the differential equation for entropy

>directly from the Gravitation Theory. Another fundamental

>consequence of the mentioned correlation is that , in specific

>ultra-high energy conditions, the gravitational and electromagnetic

>fields can be described by the same Hamiltonian , i.e., in these

>circumstances, they are unified ! Such conditions can have

>occurred inclusive in the Initial Universe , before the first

>spontaneous breaking of symmetry.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 21:49:51 1999
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Subject: Re: A new gravitation/unification paper (gr-qc/9910036)
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WOW. This really <italic><bigger>is</bigger></italic> a paper. Now that
I've read more of it, I'd sure love to see a critique.. 


Better yet-- I'd love to see a description for a prototype of a
transmitter for "beams of

coherent extra-long electromagnetic waves(frequencies below 1kHz)." Uh..
wouldn't the antenna be kinda long? I should think that perhaps crossed
field antennas might fill the bill. Comments?



Best Regards,  Colin Quinney


>>>><<snip>

"We see then that only in the absence of external electromagnetic fields
on the particle (U=0) is the gravitational mass equivalent to the

inertial mass. We also see that, atoms (or molecules ) can have their
gravitational masses strongly reduced by means of beams of

coherent extra-long electromagnetic waves(frequencies below 1kHz)."

<<<<<<<<snip>

"According to the new expression for the inertial forces, we see that
these forces have origin in the gravitational interaction between the

body and the other masses of the Universe, just as Mach’s principle
predicts. Hence mentioned expression incorporates the Mach’s

principle into Gravitation Theory, and furthermore reveals that a body’s
inertial effects can be reduced and even annulled if its

gravitational mass may be reduced or annulled, respectively." 


"The new relativistic expression for the mass show that, a particle with
null gravitational mass isn't subject to relativistic effects , because

under these circumstances its gravitational mass doesn't increase with
increasing velocity .i.e., it stays null independently of the 
particle's

velocity. This means that , a particle with null gravitational mass , can
reach and even surpass the light speed."

>>>><<snip>

"... <<snip> ... General Relativity Theory will obviously be preserved." 

<<<<<<<<


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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: [antigrav] Some Theory (fwd)
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Subject: [antigrav] Some Theory


	Correct if in error 

 5,503,351   Vass, Gabor I.  (O4/O2/96)  Circular wing aircraft


 5,303,879   Bucher, Franz  (O4/19/94)  Aircraft with a ducted fan
             in a circular wing

 5,046,685   Bose, Phillip R.  (O9/1O/91)  Fixed circular wing

 4,976,395   von Kozierowski, J.  (12/11/9O)  Heavier-than-air
             disk-type aircraft

 4,457,476   Andresevitz, Frank  (O7/O3/84)  Wingless aircraft

 4,452,410   Everett, Robert A.  (O6/O5/84)  In-line gyro type
             aircraft

 4,433,819   Carrington, Alfred C.  (O2/28/84)  Aerodynamic Device

 4,312,483   Bostan, Nicolae  (O1/26/82)  Aircraft With Circular
             Wing

 3,774,865   Pinto, Olympio F.  (11/27/73)  Flying Saucer


 3,690,597   Di Martino, Renato  (O9/12/72)  Vertical take-off
                landing aircraft having a pair of coaxial
                counter-rotating rotors etc.


 3,O72,366   Freeland, Leonor Z.  (O1/O8/63)  Fluid sustained
aircraft

OQM

	Light waves are vibrations of an electromagnetic field, and
although such as field is not a material medium , its physical presence
can be measured directly.   pp 158
	But quantum waves are purely a mathmatical abstraction.   The wave
function of an electron does not represent the physical electron at all.
pp 158
	In 1900 Max Planck introduced his quantum hypothesis to explain
the puzzling  coloration of light emitted, for instance,  by a hot metal
object that can glow red or yellow or white depending on its temperature.
pp 137
	 Five years later , Einstein adapted Planck's ideas to explain the
photo electric effect in which absorbed light ejected from the surface of
a metal.  pp 137
	There is a dual nature of light, in fact of all electromagnetic
radiation.  How can light be both a wave and a particle?   Particles are
concentrated, localized, and consist of matter.   Waves are diffuse,
unlocalized  and are not themselves material but are vibrations.
	This dual nature of light, and of electromagnetic radiation
generally is a characteristic 
of all Quantum Phenomena. 
	Yet  Quantum Theory never actually resolves this conflict, nor
even acknowledges it AS a conflict.
	Quantum theory tells us the results of experiments and
observations but not why they come out as they do.    Quantum theory
treats Nature as a black box but it never tells us what is inside the box.
	According to the Quantum hypothesis the box HAS no inside.
	Quantum theory denies that phenomena have any inner reality.
	It provides answers only for the results of observations, and it
tells us nothing about what happens between our observations.

	From  
	Physics for the Rest of Us by  R. S. Jones  1992  Contemporary
Books, Chicago USA





------------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send a blank email to antigrav-unsubscribe egroups.com


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 22:38:34 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Senility Prayer 
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God, grant me the Senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the
>good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the
>difference.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 12 23:48:57 1999
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:43:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: QM stuff
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> 	QM is Quantum Mechanics and is a theory and mathmatical set of
> rules which is partly worked out.

> 	Is this so.... or is ALL the math for all situations worked out?

   I think the theory is considered to be all worked out. However, 
it hasn't been applied yet to all possible situations. The math tells 
one how to solve the equations. The math can get intractible for 
many problems of interest.

   QM doesn't explain WHY things are the way they are. It just sets 
out equations that let us predict what should happen, if the theory 
is correct. So far, the theory has been correct. Most of the discussion 
and debate, I think, has to do with the WHY questions and not whether 
QM predicts experimental results.

   Semiconductor behavior is a quantum effect, as are paramagnetism and 
ferromagnetism and superconductivity. Diamagnetism can be disucssed with
classical physics, though.

> 	One of the basic ideas of the theory is that position, mass,
> energy might be predicted .... within limits and the limits involve the
> smallest possible change... a quantum.
> 
> 	...so a quantum leap is the tinyest step or leap you can make
> 
   Only in some systems. See below.
> 
> 	Q: Does QM say there are no smooth and infinitely variable
> predictions... but they must come in 'little jumps' ...the quanta?
> 
   No. QM restricts changes to small jumps only in resonant systems, 
like bound electrons in an atom. In nonresonant, unbound systems, 
there are not jumps, only probabilities of outcomes, like directions, 
angles, energies, etc.


=====
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 13 04:24:51 1999
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Jim -
> 

(Snip of interesting story about glider flight)

> 
> The experience did teach me one thing: some UFO reports involving glowing
> spheres which might seem quite extraordinary at first could be mundane at
> their core, and simply involve strange electrical activity connected with
> birds, airborne debris, etc. "Strange electrical activity" seems like a
> perfect skeptic's brush for sweeping away quite a bit of reported phenomena,
> but I've seen it first hand. Hey for a few moments there, I *was* a UFO.

It's interesting that you should bring a persoanl experience of this
kind into a discussion of anomalous phenomena such as UFO sightings. If
we should believe your story, then why should we not believe what others
have said they saw or experienced, such as abductions and the like? 

_I_ believe your story, Rick. But there is something about anecdotal
evidence that 
"science" doesn't like, it seems. 150 witnesses saw a missile like
object strike the 
TWA800 for example. Yet all the investigators conclude some weird,
hitherto unknown phenomena that has never occurred in millions of air
hours of the Boeing 747, a spontaneous explosion of the center wing
tank, was resopnsible for the deaths of all those people. 

The government lies, practically all the time. That fact should be kept
in mind by anyone who investigates anything connected with government
activity. What your story indicates is that there ARE unexplained
electrical effects on visibility. 

Good. Now that's a confirmation right there that something like the
alleged story of the PX ship being enveloped in a green fog of some kind
could be true. Allende may have been right.

Thanks for this contribution, Rick

Jim Ostrowski  

> 
> - Nene Goose
> Honolulu, HI
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > Hello, Frederick.
> >
> > The inquiries I am making are intended to try and piece together the
> > experimental procedure for duplicating the alleged configuration of the
> > so called "Philadelphia
> > Experiment". There has been progress. Since the subject of experimental
> > configurations
> > involving electromagnetic fields and the like is a fit topic for this
> > forum (vortex-l)
> > I plan to continue to post things related to this effort to vortex-l.
> > Sorry if this bothers you.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Jim Ostrowski

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References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.991012082307.29830F-100000 college.antioch-college.edu> <380337C8.E6AEBA24@bellsouth.net> <017d01bf14c9$f2f09ba0$85441d26@fjsparber> <380369E0.1E71@ca-ois.com> <01f801bf14dc$f2f0ef20$85441d26@fjsparber>
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

> The "Philadelphia" experiment was an early test of trying to RADAR STEALTH
> A SHIP by putting deflector plates on it.

That's interesting! Even the Navy's version mentions nothing about
"deflector plates".
THEY allege that the experiments had to do with degaussing coils making
ships invisible to magnetic mines.

See:

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq21-2.htm

"ONR has never conducted any investigations on invisibility, either in
1943 or at any other time (ONR was established in 1946.) In view of
present
scientific knowledge, ONR scientists do not believe that such an
experiment
could be possible except in the realm of science fiction."

> So what is the big deal?

You seem to know more about this than the Navy, Frederick. Do you have
any further details from your own personal knowledge of this experiment?

or is this "deflector plates" idea of yours just BULL SHIT?

Jim Ostrowski


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Terry Blanton wrote:
> 
> No better expert on the alleged Aviary exists than Dan Smith, aka
> Chicken Little.  An exemplary article from his web site can be
> found at:
> 
> http://www.clark.net/pub/dansmith/aquarium.html
> 
> Enjoy

Thanks, Terry! I downloaded the whole thing. What an excellent article!

Much Grass! :-)

Jim Ostrowski


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Colin Quinney wrote:

Thanks, Hamdi.

Frederick and John, this is the final proof that rapid boiling
"levitates" coffee.  ;-)                      

  "...  However, only recently has it been discovered that
a particle's gravitational mass decreases with the increasing
temperature ..."

Seriously The statement is simply very interesting-- 
it was made as if we were all supposed to know it.

Has anyone here read the reference? Donoghue, J.F, Holstein, B.R
(1987) European J. of Physics, 8,105.

... The test mass would probably have to be electrically
heated inside a container insulated with very high R factor
indeed [with absolutely minimal T variation].
Has anyone ever tried that?

Hi Colin,

Henry Cavendish, in his original work, found something
similar.

Jack Smith

From:

 Cavendish, Henry.  "Experiments to
 determine the Density of the Earth",
 Philosophical Transactions of the Royal
 Society of London, Vol. 88, 1798, p.249-284.   

p. 263

"The next thing which suggested Itself to me
was, that possibly the effect might be owing to
a difference of temperature between the weights
and the case; for it is evident, that if the
weights were much warmer than the case, they
would warm that side which was next to them,
and produce a current of air, which would make
the balls approach nearer to the weights.

Though I thought it not likely that there
should be sufficient difference, between the
heat of the weight and case, to have any
sensible effect, and though it seemed
improbable that in all the foregoing experiments,
the weights should happen to be warmer than
the case, I resolved to examine into it,
and for this purpose removed the apparatus
used in the last experiments, and supported
the weights by the copper rods, as before;
and, having placed them in the midway position,
I put a lamp under each, and placed a thermometer
with its ball close to the outside of the case,
near that part which one of the weights approached
to in its positive position, and in such manner
that I could distingush the divisions by
the telescope.  Having done this, I shut the door,
and some time after moved the weights to the
positive position.

At first, the arm was drawn
aside only in its usual manner; but, in half
an hour, the effect was so much increased,
that the arm was drawn 14 divisons aside,
instead of about three as it would otherwise
have been, and the thermometer raised near
1 1/2 degrees; namely, from 61 degrees to
62 1/2 degrees.  On opening the door,
the weights were found to be no more heated,
than just to prevent their feeling  
cool to my fingers 

p. 264

As the effect of a difference of temperature
appeared to be so great, I bored a small
hole in one of the weights, about three-quarters
of an inch deep, and inserted the ball of a small
thermometer, and then covered up the opening
with cement.  Another small thermometer was
placed with its ball close to the case,
and as near to that part to which the weight
was approached as could be done with safety;
the thermometers being so placed, that when
the weights were in the negative position,
both could be seen though one of the telescopes,
by means of light reflected concave mirror.

[Experiment VI, data table not included here]
[Experiment VII, data table not included here]
[Experiment VIII, data table not included here]
  
p. 266

In these three experiments, the effect of the
weight appeared to increase from two to five
tenths of a divison, on standing an hour; and the
thermometers shewed, that the weight were three
or five tenths of a degree warmer than the air
close to the case. In the two last experiments,  
I put a lamp into the room, over night,
in hopes of making the air warmer than the weights,
but without effect, as the weights exceeded
that of the air more in these two experiments
than in the former.
 
On the evening of October 17, the weights being
placed in the midway position, lamps were put
under them, in order to warm them; the doors was
then shut,and the lamps suffered to burn out.
The next morning it was found, on moving the
weights to the negative position, that they
were 7 1/2 degrees warmer than the air
near the case.  After they continued an hour
in that position, they were found to have cooled
1 1/2 degrees so as to be only 6 degrees warmer
than the air.  They were then moved to the
positive position; and in both positions the arm
was drawn aside about four divisions more,
after the weights had remained an hour in that
position than it was at first. 

May 22, 1798. The experiment was repeated in the
same manner, except that the lamps were made
so as to burn only a short time, and only two
hours were suffered to elapse before the weights
were moved. The weights were now found to be
scarcely 2 degrees warmer than the case;
and the arm was drawn aside about two divisions
more, after the weights had remained an hour in the
position they were moved to than it was at first.

On May 23, the experiment was tried in the in
the same manner, except that the weights were
cooled by laying ice on them; the ice being
confined in its place by tin plates, which, on 
moveing the weights, fell to the ground, so as
not to be in the way.  On moving the weights
to the negative position, they were found to
be about 8 degrees colder than the air, and their
effect on the arm seemed now to diminish
on standing, instead of increasing,
as it did before: as the arm was drawn
aside about 2 1/2 divisons less, at the end
of an hour after the motion of the weights,
than it was at first.

It seems suffiently proved,therefor, that the
effect in question is produced, as above
explained, by the difference of temperature
beteen the weights and case; for, in the 6th,
8th, 9th experiments in which the weights
were not much warmer than the case,  
their effect increased but little on standing;
whereas, it increased much, when they
were much were much warmer than the case,
and decreased much when they were much cooler. 

p. 267

It must be observed, that in this apparatus,
the box in which the the balls play is pretty
deep, and the balls hang near the bottom of
it which makes the effect of the current of
the air more sensible than it would
otherwise be, and is a defect which I intend
to rectify in some future experiments.

[Experiment IX, data table not included here]

p. 283

>From this table it appears, that though the
experiments agree pretty well together,
yet the difference between them, both in the
quantity of motion of the arm and in the time of
vibration, IS GREATER THAN CAN PROCEED  MERELY
FROM THE ERROR OBSERVATION.  As to the
difference in the motion of the arm,
it may very well be accounted for, from the
current of produced by the difference of
temperature; but, whether this can account
for the difference in the time of vibration,
is doubtful.  If the current of air was regular,
and of the same swiftness in all parts of the
vibration of the ball, I think it could not;
but as there will most likely be much 
irregularity in the current, it may very likely
be sufficient to account for the difference.

p. 284

By a mean of experiments made with the wire
first used, the density of the earth comes
out 5.48 times greater than that of water;
and by a mean of those made with the
latter wire, it comes out the same; and the
extreme difference of the result of the
23 observations made with this wire,
is only .75; so that the extreme results do
not differ from the mean by more than .38,
or 1/14 of the whole, and therfore the density
should seem to be determined hereby, to
great exactness.

It, indeed, may be objected, that as
the result appears to be influnenced
by the current of air, OR SOME OTHER CAUSE,
THE LAWS OF WHICH WE ARE NOT WELL ACQUAINTED
WITH, this cause may perhaps act always,
or commonly, in the same direction and
thereby make a considerble error in the result ...."


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	Dear Michael,

	Thanks.  Helps round out the picture, a little.

	Recap... add if I missed some:

	QM is a Theory, a Hypothesis.  The math is all worked out, but is
not applied to all systems  Quanta apply in some systems and not others ..
as a mathmatical exercise of what should happen.
		OK?



On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Michael Schaffer wrote:

> John Schnurer wrote:
> > 
> > 	QM is Quantum Mechanics and is a theory and mathmatical set of
> > rules which is partly worked out.
> 
> > 	Is this so.... or is ALL the math for all situations worked out?
> 
>    I think the theory is considered to be all worked out. However, 
> it hasn't been applied yet to all possible situations. The math tells 
> one how to solve the equations. The math can get intractible for 
> many problems of interest.
> 
>    QM doesn't explain WHY things are the way they are. It just sets 
> out equations that let us predict what should happen, if the theory 
> is correct. So far, the theory has been correct. Most of the discussion 
> and debate, I think, has to do with the WHY questions and not whether 
> QM predicts experimental results.
> 
>    Semiconductor behavior is a quantum effect, as are paramagnetism and 
> ferromagnetism and superconductivity. Diamagnetism can be disucssed with
> classical physics, though.
> 
> > 	One of the basic ideas of the theory is that position, mass,
> > energy might be predicted .... within limits and the limits involve the
> > smallest possible change... a quantum.
> > 
> > 	...so a quantum leap is the tinyest step or leap you can make
> > 
>    Only in some systems. See below.
> > 
> > 	Q: Does QM say there are no smooth and infinitely variable
> > predictions... but they must come in 'little jumps' ...the quanta?
> > 
>    No. QM restricts changes to small jumps only in resonant systems, 
> like bound electrons in an atom. In nonresonant, unbound systems, 
> there are not jumps, only probabilities of outcomes, like directions, 
> angles, energies, etc.
> 
> 
> =====
> Michael J. Schaffer
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 13 07:36:58 1999
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On Tue, 12 Oct 1999 04:55:55   John Schnurer wrote:
>	Great description... thanks!
>
>>From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
>
>>clear, and quite ordinary. To explain that statement, let me break the
>>analysis down a bit. Suppose you cut a flat circular disk from a piece of
>>aluminum sheet, position an electric motor so that its shaft points
>>straight up, mount the disk so it is centered on that shaft, and start it
>>spinning at 3600 rpm. Result: air molecules that contact the surface of the
>>spinning disk will be thrown down the tangents to the concentric circles at
>>the points of contact. Since all tangents, when extended, lead away from
>>the center of rotation, it follows that we will have air flow outward from
>>the center of rotation along the surface of the spinning disk. Thus if we
>>arrange a series of concentric ridges on the top surface of the disk and
>>cut holes on the near sides of the ridges (the sides closest to the center
>>of the disk), then the outward flow of air along the top surface of the
>>disk will, when it encounters the holes, pass from the top of the disk to
>>the bottom, before continuing on its outward course. Result: now we have
>>air flow from the top of the disk to the bottom, which will generate lift.
>>That means if we mount such a "Schauberger disk" with its edge flush
>>against the inside of a paraboloid bell housing, punch a hole at the center
>>of the housing to permit air to enter, and set the disk to rotating, air
>>will flow in at the center of the bell housing, downward through the
>>rotating "Schauberger disk," and out of the bottom of the bell housing,
>>causing the entire apparatus to lift itself into the air. Thus we will have
>>a "Schauberger flying saucer." To which I say: "So what?" Where is the
>>mystery about the performance of this device? --Mitchell Jones}***

Mitch:
Great description?!  What you describe is a hovercraft not a Schauberger device.  Schauberger's device is electrodynamic not aerodynamic.  Tesla knew exactly how it worked.  A few on this list know too, but are unwilling or unable to say.  The underlying 

principle is a common denominator to many fringe technologies.

-WK

---
"This rudderles world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces, 
it is not God who kills the children, not Fate that butchers them, 
or Destiny that feeds them to the dogs.  It is us, only us."

Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes



HotBot - Search smarter.
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 13 08:17:47 1999
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:15:45 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Recommended Internet search tool
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Ed Wall told me about this site:

Fast Search http://www.alltheweb.com/

It is very good. It's fast and it seems to find mostly serious listings,
not porno and junk, unless you are looking for "porno." The indexes are
built and stored on the site server computers. A search for "cold fusion"
instantly returns:

89214 documents found - 0.6450 seconds search time 

This is a mix of documents about our CF and the software product. "Cold
fusion energy" returns:

19481 documents found - 0.3620 seconds search time

. . . mostly about CF.

Picking an unlikely sounding name at random, say "Jeffery Kooistra," returns:

197 documents found - 0.8360 seconds search time

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 13 09:53:14 1999
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Subject: Re: OU Coffee Cup Heater?: Motor Oil Bubble Chamber
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Going by the premise that Nanobubbles are formed in a 
Bubble Chamber due to localized heating from particle
collisions, (P -Po = 2*surface tension/R ~= 100 atm   R= 14 nM)
which is Impossible for oil or water vapor acting as a gas to form
nanobubbles at these low temperatures,
or, that nanobubbles are formed from formation
of neutrino-antineutrino pairs which initiate the bubbles,
and susequent Hydrino formation and EUV energy release
causes the bubbles to expand to visible size, the 188 watt 
Instant Heater was immersed in a jar filled with SAE 30 HD motor oil.

With a flashlight shining through the oil it took on a bright red
color and thousands of very small (silvery)bubbles could be seen rising
from the ~ 4.0 watt/cm^2 immersion heater surface.

This experiment lasted about 2 minutes, because the immersion heater
failed, apparently due to overheating. 

Hydrino Heat from the CxHy oil? What is the chemistry of the detergent?

Regards,      Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 13 11:04:43 1999
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: OU Coffee Cup Heater?: Motor Oil Bubble Chamber
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>Going by the premise that Nanobubbles are formed in a
>Bubble Chamber due to localized heating from particle
>collisions, (P -Po = 2*surface tension/R ~= 100 atm   R= 14 nM)
>which is Impossible for oil or water vapor acting as a gas to form
>nanobubbles at these low temperatures,
>or, that nanobubbles are formed from formation
>of neutrino-antineutrino pairs which initiate the bubbles,
>and susequent Hydrino formation and EUV energy release
>causes the bubbles to expand to visible size, the 188 watt
>Instant Heater was immersed in a jar filled with SAE 30 HD motor oil.
>
>With a flashlight shining through the oil it took on a bright red
>color and thousands of very small (silvery)bubbles could be seen rising
>from the ~ 4.0 watt/cm^2 immersion heater surface.
>
>This experiment lasted about 2 minutes, because the immersion heater
>failed, apparently due to overheating.

***{They have built-in fuses, required by the government "for our
protection" (i.e., so they can order us around). I suggest that you go to a
hardware store, buy a water heater heating element (they are sold
separately as a replacement part), and wire the rest of it up yourself. The
wattage, of course, will be different; but the effect (or the error) should
still be present. --MJ}***

>
>Hydrino Heat from the CxHy oil? What is the chemistry of the detergent?
>
>Regards,      Frederick


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 13 11:08:23 1999
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:57:20 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Schauberger Effect, or Ground Effect?
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>On Tue, 12 Oct 1999 04:55:55   John Schnurer wrote:
>>	Great description... thanks!
>>
>>>From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
>>
>>>clear, and quite ordinary. To explain that statement, let me break the
>>>analysis down a bit. Suppose you cut a flat circular disk from a piece of
>>>aluminum sheet, position an electric motor so that its shaft points
>>>straight up, mount the disk so it is centered on that shaft, and start it
>>>spinning at 3600 rpm. Result: air molecules that contact the surface of the
>>>spinning disk will be thrown down the tangents to the concentric circles at
>>>the points of contact. Since all tangents, when extended, lead away from
>>>the center of rotation, it follows that we will have air flow outward from
>>>the center of rotation along the surface of the spinning disk. Thus if we
>>>arrange a series of concentric ridges on the top surface of the disk and
>>>cut holes on the near sides of the ridges (the sides closest to the center
>>>of the disk), then the outward flow of air along the top surface of the
>>>disk will, when it encounters the holes, pass from the top of the disk to
>>>the bottom, before continuing on its outward course. Result: now we have
>>>air flow from the top of the disk to the bottom, which will generate lift.
>>>That means if we mount such a "Schauberger disk" with its edge flush
>>>against the inside of a paraboloid bell housing, punch a hole at the center
>>>of the housing to permit air to enter, and set the disk to rotating, air
>>>will flow in at the center of the bell housing, downward through the
>>>rotating "Schauberger disk," and out of the bottom of the bell housing,
>>>causing the entire apparatus to lift itself into the air. Thus we will have
>>>a "Schauberger flying saucer." To which I say: "So what?" Where is the
>>>mystery about the performance of this device? --Mitchell Jones}***
>
>Mitch:
>Great description?!  What you describe is a hovercraft not a Schauberger
>device.  Schauberger's device is electrodynamic not aerodynamic.

***{Could be. My only information about the device came from the Naudin web
page, at http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/delany/256/html/repulsb.htm.
I assumed that the disk within the bell housing is intended to be rotated
by means of a motor because of the red markings on the rim, which appear to
be indicators of rotation. Rotation, naturally, requires a motor. Perhaps
my interpretation of Naudin's red markings is incorrect, or perhaps
Naudin's idea is not the same as that of Schjauberger. --MJ}***

  Tesla knew exactly how it worked.  A few on this list know too, but are
unwilling or unable to say.

***{Why not? The thing is surely in the public domain by now. (Be careful
how you answer, or you will receive a lecture from Jed about "irrational
secrecy." :-) --MJ}***

  The underlying principle is a common denominator to many fringe technologies.
>
>-WK
>
>---
>"This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces,
>it is not God who kills the children, not Fate that butchers them,
>or Destiny that feeds them to the dogs.  It is us, only us."
>
>Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes
>
>
>
>HotBot - Search smarter.
>http://www.hotbot.com


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Jim -

Not to beat the glider anecdote to death, but the reason I described it in
detail is that it might be possible to derive some clue about this from what
I observed. I know at least one person on the list is interested in this
because of ongoing experiments and has asked for details, so I'll add a few
more comments here.

The weird thing was the way the shape of the glow seemed to ignore the big
array of metal poles and wires of the glider. When we consider electrical
discharges, we tend to think about the overriding importance of the location
and shape of conducting materials which would seem to be centrally involved.

One aspect of the situation might help explain the discharge shape and
another phenomena, and that's salt water. When surf breaks, it injects mist
into the air flow. Anyone near the shore with glasses or a windshield or
similar quickly finds out what happens with this mist. It partially
evaporates and turns into durable little slush particles consisting of
water, organic matter, and salt (& other chemical) crystals. The human body
is also a similar dielectric bag of mostly salt water and organic matter. If
it was my body that served as the main discharge electrode instead of the
metal glider frame as would more likely be assumed, then that could at least
partially explain the shape of the glow.

The other phenomena, the slightly sparkly texture of the light, might have
been due to more intense activity near the surface of the tiny salt-slush
particles I was passing through. Note that these particles are not terribly
small because the salt and protein scum prevents the droplets from
evaporating all the way. You can see individual particles up close with the
naked eye, especially when they land on glass. So that could be something
for those experimenting in this area to try - salt water or other dielectric
materials either sheathing metal electrodes or simply placed nearby, and
maybe a concentrated salt mist blown into the vicinity of various
electrode/dielectric arrays. Don't forget to cover all your tools &
equipment!

Even if the above is meaningful, I'm still left wondering: why would
electricity, presumably 60hz AC, appear to *ignore* conductive metal as a
pathway, preferring instead to interact with dielectric objects?

I will also add that in years of flying and just being in this area
generally, I have never seen any similar glows around the power lines or any
other feature near them, nor has anyone I know ever mentioned any similar
phenomena with either the wires or gliders.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

<snip>

> Good. Now that's a confirmation right there that something like the
> alleged story of the PX ship being enveloped in a green fog of some kind
> could be true. Allende may have been right.

<snip>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 13 12:13:23 1999
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Hi Jack,


So Cavendish determined that the errors introduced through temperature
change were insufficient to explain the deviations? (They sure talked
funny in 1798. Is that correct?) Interesting. I had several references to
other experiments of temperature vs weight change that indicated this
also (all around here somewhere)-- that buoyancy effects alone are
insufficient to explain the weight discrepancies.. Even from-- I think
also-- Poynting. He also looked into the phenomena if I recall, as did
other famous scientists. It's funny how they all quickly dropped it
though, when they were peer-criticised-- [they dropped the "hot" potato
:-]. The problem as I see it from the scientific attitudinal perspective
[besides having no accepted theory] is that it requires impeccable
control. Otherwise it's <bold><italic>so</italic></bold> easy to
criticize. No air currents of any kind from buoyancy or any other error
can be allowed. (You are familiar with the phrase, "Extraordinary
claims."?) The insulation must be extraordinarily tight.


It's certainly one for my back-burner :-)=20


Best,  Colin Quinney


At 11:47 AM 10/13/99 +0000, Jack Smith wrote:

>

>... The test mass would probably have to be electrically

>heated inside a container insulated with very high R factor

>indeed [with absolutely minimal T variation].

>Has anyone ever tried that?

>

>Hi Colin,

>

>Henry Cavendish, in his original work, found something

>similar.

>

>Jack Smith

>

>From:

>

> Cavendish, Henry.  "Experiments to

> determine the Density of the Earth",

> Philosophical Transactions of the Royal

> Society of London, Vol. 88, 1798, p.249-284.  =20


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 13 12:30:36 1999
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:26:55 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Key desalination facts
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Here is some information from:

http://www.ceres.ca.gov/coastalcomm/desa1rpt/dkeyfact.html

I have added explanatory comments and information from various sources and
from other parts of the document in square brackets. - JR


California Coastal Commission

Seawater Desalination in California
KEY DESALINATION FACTS


Technologies

*   Reverse Osmosis. [Abbreviated "RO."  The most energy efficient method.
Takes 5,800 to 12,000 kilowatt hours of electricity per acre-foot (kWh/AF).
Original equipment cost and equipment maintenance expenses are higher.]

Pressure is applied to the intake water, forcing the water molecules through a
semipermeable membrane. The salt molecules do not pass through the
membrane, and the water that passes through becomes potable product water.

*   Distillation. [Less energy efficient. Takes 3400 to 7000 kWh
electricity plus 270 million Btu (26,000 kWh) heat, usually from fossil
fuel. My guess is that the U.S. Navy at San Nicolas Island uses heat from
electricity, or possibly from burning furniture or U.S. currency.]

The intake water is heated to produce steam. The steam is then condensed to
produce product water with low salt concentration.


Ranges in Plant Capacity (Other than offshore oil and gas platforms)

* 20 - 112,000 AF/yr.

Costs

 *   Most seawater desalination plants in California would produce water in
the range of $1,000 to $2,200 per acre-foot (1992 cost basis).

[Costs depends on the technology and plant capacity. "For example, the cost
of desalted water in Santa Barbara ($1900/AF) results from the following: a
write-off of the capital cost over a short five-year., high financing
costs, and high energy costs." Overall cost are roughly the same for
different technologies; distillation equipment is cheaper than reverse
osmosis (RO) but it takes more energy.

Costs in California for desalination water range from $1000 to $4000 per
AF, except for the U.S. Navy which pays $6000. In comparison, water from
the Colorado River costs $27 per AF. The cost of fresh water from rivers
and lakes is mainly due to pumping, pipes, and dams. New groundwater wells
in mountains cost 600 to $700/AF, expanding a reservoir (new) cost $950,
and temporary emergency water deliveries from other districts costs $2300.]


Energy Use: 2,500 [RO] to 29,500 kilowatt hours [distillation] per
acre-foot (kWh/AF).


Recovery (Percent of product water per unit input flow): For every 100
gallons of seawater input, 15 to 50 gallons of fresh water would be
produced (a "recovery" of 15 to 50%). The remainder is waste brine solution
containing dissolved solids.

Water Quality: 1.0 to 500 ppm tds [total dissolved solids]

Feedwater Source: Desalination plants can use either a pipeline into the
ocean or wells on  the beach or seafloor for intake of seawater. [Brackish
water from wells is much cheaper to process.]

Plant Size

Area: Varies according to plant design. Proposed or existing desalination
plants in California range from 80 square feet for a 16 AF/yr plant to 7.5
acres for a 5,000 AF/yr plant. [31

Height: 15 to 20 feet for typical reverse osmosis equipment. 30 to 45 feet
for typical distillation equipment.


Notes

1.  One acre-foot (AF) equals approximately 326,000 gallons; this is
equivalent to the amount of water that two to three households would
consume   in one year. Units of capacity are acre-feet per year (AF/yr),
gallons per day (gpd) or million gallons per day (MGD). In most cases,
conversions can not be made directly from gpd or MGD to AF/yr since most
plants will not   operate every day of the year.

2.  The California secondary drinking water standard for maximum total
dissolved solids (tds) concentration is 500 milligrams per liter (mg/L),
which is equivalent to 500 parts per million (ppm). In contrast, the tds
concentration in "typical seawater" is 34,420 mg/L (Source: CI{2M Hill,
"Preliminary Feasibility Study Report of Seawater Desalination Options for
Goleta Water District," September 1989.)

3.  For example, the City of Santa Barbara s plant is designed to
accommodate a capacity of up to 10,000 AF/yr on 2.1 acres of land,
including both the main pump station and the chemical treatment area.


[Possible impact of cold fusion or other exotic energy technology:

Dramatically lower energy costs would make distillation technology much
cheaper than the alternatives.

Separating elements from brine could add a new revenue stream to the
operation of desalination plants. In existing plants, the brine is dumped
back in the ocean. Each liter of unconcentrated seawater contains 34 grams
of dissolved or suspended solids; this would be increased 15 to 50%, as
described above. The solids are mostly salt (80%) which has little economic
value, but they also include magnesium (12%), aluminum, antimony, bismuth,
and many other elements, although little iron. Cheap or zero-cost energy
would make separating elements from brine more cost-effective. On the other
hand, it would also make separating elements from trash streams, landfills,
and raw ore more cost-effective. The most valuable product from
desalination will continue to be fresh water.

Heat exchangers and cogeneration improve distillation efficiency. RO takes
electricity, and not much thermal energy.

Desalinated fresh water has to be mixed with water from natural sources for
human consumption, because it is too pure:

"Distillation plants produce a high-quality product water that ranges from
1.0 to 50 ppm tds, while RO plants produce a product water that ranges from
10 to 500 ppm tds. (The recommended California drinking water standard for
maximum tds is 500 mg/L, which is equivalent to 500 ppm.) In desalination
plants that produce water for domestic use, post-treatment processes are
often employed to ensure that product water meets the health standards for
drinking water as well as recommended aesthetic and anti-corrosive standards.

Desalination product water may be used in its pure form (e.g., for make-up
water in power plant boilers) or it may be mixed with less pure water and
used for drinking water, irrigation, or other uses. The desalinated product
water is usually more pure than drinking water standards, so when product
water is intended for municipal use, it may be mixed with water that
contains higher levels of total dissolved solids. Pure desalination water
is highly acidic and is thus corrosive to pipes, so it has to be mixed with
other sources of water that are piped onsite or else adjusted for pH,
hardness, and alkalinity before being piped offsite." (Chapter 1)]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 13 12:57:52 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: A hammer.... Fontana invitation?
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	Dear Hamdi,

	If you are asking me do I want to do research?

	Yes.  You will have to chase me with a big hammer to make me NOT
want to do research!

	I would be glad to.  I have written to Dr. Fontana but I never get
a reply from.

	And an interesting thing.  First a question.

	Q: Do you think I have publicly demonstrated an interest in
Gravity Modification research?

	No one has EVER asked me if I wanted to investigate gravity.


					John 

	Q: SO:  Do I want to investigate gravity ?
	A:	Yes.  When and how does the work begin?



On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Hamdi Ucar wrote:
> This is part of the Dr.Giorgio Fontana homepage on list of publicatons:
> ....
> A possibility of emission of high frequency gravitational radiation from d-wave to s-wave type superconductor junctions. (preprint)
> Los Alamos National Laboratory preprint database: gr-qc/9804069 

> 
> Are you interested in developing these junctions with who was able to
> discover them? e-mail me. .... 
> 
> URL is "http://www.science.unitn.it/~fontana/"
> 
> Regards,
> 
> hamdi ucar
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 13 13:16:30 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: John Steck
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	Dear Vo.,

	Anyone have valid address for John Steck?

			J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 13 13:38:02 1999
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Experiment requiring QM explanation?
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At 8:35 AM 10/12/99, Mitchell Jones wrote:
[snip]
>>This is all a rehash of Malus' law, I = I0*(cos^2 theta).  It does nothing
>>to descibe how the polarization is changed, how the photons are reoriented.
>
>***{They are reoriented magnetically. To understand how this happens, you
>need two visual models, one representing a photon, and the other
>representing the internal structure of a polarizing lens. Consider,
>therefore, the following:


If what you say is true, why is it that

   (1)  a 10,000 gauss magnet (or mouch more) will not polarize
        light equally effectively?

   (2)  a filter with no detectable magnetic field will
        polarize light passing through it?



>
>(1) To develop a visual model of a photon, imagine a planet with a rocky
>core and an enormously deep atmosphere, in which the atmosphere is filled
>with negatively or positively charged sand particles (but not both).
>Imagine further that the planet in question is spinning at such an enormous
>velocity that the atmosphere shrinks in at the poles and expands outward at
>the equator, forming a huge spinning disk. Now, since the disk consists of
>charged particles moving around it in circles, there will be a very
>powerful magnetic field with its axis aligned perpendicular to the plane of
>the disk. If we now shrink this planet to the size of a photon and move it
>through space at the speed of light, it becomes an excellent visual model
>of a photon.
>
>(2) To develop a visual model of the internal structure of a polarizing
>lens, you need to understand how Edwin Land (the college dropout who
>founded Polaroid Corp.) created the first artificial polarizing lens. What
>he did was suspend millions of microscopic herapathite crystals (a
>polarizing substance) in a solution of nitrocellulose lacquer. The solution
>was contained in a transparent cylinder of glass a half inch in diameter
>and a quarter inch thick. Naturally, the millions of tiny crystals were
>randomly oriented in the solution, and the solution took on the
>reddish-black color of the crystals and was quite opaque. Land, however,
>had studied the experimental papers of Michael Faraday, who had discovered
>that the plane of polarized light was deflected to match the orientation of
>a magnetic field. Result: Land placed his solution within a powerful
>electromagnet that could generate a field of 10,000 gauss, and, when he
>turned it on, he discovered that "slowly and somewhat sluggishly the cell
>became lighter and quite transparent" and that "when we examined the
>transmitted light with a nicol prism, it went from white to black as the
>prism was turned." [*Land's Polaroid*, by Peter Wensberg, pg. 34]
>
>So there you have it: a photon is a spinning disk of electric microcharges,
>and has a magnetic dipole oriented perpendicular to the plane of those
>microcharges; and a polarizing lens consists of molecules that also have
>magnetic poles, and which were forcibly aligned by means of a powerful
>magnetic field, prior to solidification into that lens. Result: when a
>photon passes through a polarizing lens, its magnetic field naturally
>aligns to match the magnetic field within the lens through which it is
>passing.
>
>--Mitchell Jones}***
>
>[snip]
>
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Horace Heffner
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 13 13:56:05 1999
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Subject: Re: QM stuff
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It is not known if things are quantized or some kind of bubbly "quantum
foam" or whatever else the imagination can concoct when dimensions below
10^-35 meters  or 10^-44 seconds are examined (if that's possible.)   There
is much unresolved in QM, especially in the realm of quantum gravity.  To
get a feel for this check out the New Scientist 19 June 1999 article at:

   <http://www.ldolphin.org/qfoam.html>

or just do a search on "quantum foam."

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: Key desalination facts
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I wrote:

>*   Reverse Osmosis. [Abbreviated "RO."  The most energy efficient method.
>Takes 5,800 to 12,000 kilowatt hours of electricity per acre-foot (kWh/AF).
>Original equipment cost and equipment maintenance expenses are higher.]

Oops. I misread that. It says, "capital costs for RO plants tend to be
lower than for distillation plants." From the other text, I gather
operating costs are higher.

- Jed

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John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> 
>         Q: Do you think I have publicly demonstrated an interest in
> Gravity Modification research?
> 
Publicly... depends. You had not submitted a paper on a scientific publication. If you have no paper, you  have nothing to discuss. You will be ignored  by the scientific community. Of course, if you had published, nothing will change ironically, and stil

l be ignored because gravity is a taboo. see Fontana situation. His papers are rejected. If you remember I posted the correspondence between Fontana and the Editor of the publication.

Now On the Fontana main page gravity related researches and submitted papers are separated from other papers:
----------------------------
Speculations in physics:

This material is not generally accepted and requires further investigations.

A possibility of emission of high frequency gravitational radiation from d-wave to s-wave type
superconductor junctions. (preprint - local copy with links)
Los Alamos National Laboratory preprint database: gr-qc/9804069 , an improved new paper:
cond-mat/9812070. 

A basic reference: On the Gravitational Radiation of Microscopic Systems, by Halpern and Laurent 

A basic link: The Gravitech Laboratory, coordinated by Halpern and Desbrandes. 
-------------------------------


> 
> On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Hamdi Ucar wrote:
> > This is part of the Dr.Giorgio Fontana homepage on list of publicatons:
> > ....
> > A possibility of emission of high frequency gravitational radiation from d-wave to s-wave type superconductor junctions. (preprint)
> > Los Alamos National Laboratory preprint database: gr-qc/9804069
> 
> >
> > Are you interested in developing these junctions with who was able to
> > discover them? e-mail me. ....
> >
> > URL is "http://www.science.unitn.it/~fontana/"
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > hamdi ucar
> >
> >

I do not understand why Fontana did not replayed you. maybe he missed your mail, your or his  email server lost the mail. This sometimes occurs. I think so because academic people care to respond to mails, even they have negative thoughts. Even he did not

 interested about, he may replayed like "Sorry, my interest on gravity is only theoretical,..."


There is a no restriction (i.e. the paper was not needed to published anywhere before) to submit a paper to LANL archive. Only requirements are formal, the format, the procedures are quite simple... if you had access the web, it would be very practical to

 do it.

Regards, hamdi ucar

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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Key desalination facts
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 18:12:44 -0400
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Jed,

If you are researching cutting edge desalination techniques, I recommend
this resource:
http://www.wateronline.com

They have a newsletter that I have sent to me as well.  It's quite good.

Knuke

>I wrote:
>
>>*   Reverse Osmosis. [Abbreviated "RO."  The most energy efficient method.
>>Takes 5,800 to 12,000 kilowatt hours of electricity per acre-foot (kWh/AF).
>>Original equipment cost and equipment maintenance expenses are higher.]
>
>Oops. I misread that. It says, "capital costs for RO plants tend to be
>lower than for distillation plants." From the other text, I gather
>operating costs are higher.
>
>- Jed
>
>
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 13 17:23:59 1999
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Subject: Re: OU Coffee Cup Heater?: Motor Oil Bubble Chamber
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----- Original Message -----
From: Brodzinski, Ronald L <ron.brodzinski pnl.gov>
To: 'Frederick Sparber' <fjsparber earthlink.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 2:08 PM
Subject: RE: OU Coffee Cup Heater?: Motor Oil Bubble Chamber

The Instant Coffee Cup Heaters have a built-in one-shot low-melt alloy fuse
so that if there is no water in the cup it won't start a fire or seriously
burn someone. So there goes $1.50.  I'm going to use a 220/240 volt
1500 watt water heater element (Tin coated Copper)on 120 volts (375 watts)
$7.50 at Samons,with a 1" mpt.

This unit has ~72.5 cm^2 heated surface area, thus ~ 5.2 watts/cm^2

If this thing is producing "Hydrinos"-OU/CF, so is Pennzoil.   :-)

Regards,     Frederick


> How about lack of heat conductivity away from the heater by the oil, which
it
> was never designed to heat.
>
> Ron
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frederick Sparber [SMTP:fjsparber earthlink.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 10:47 AM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Cc: Brodzinski, Ronald L
> Subject: Re: OU Coffee Cup Heater?: Motor Oil Bubble Chamber
>
> Going by the premise that Nanobubbles are formed in a
> Bubble Chamber due to localized heating from particle
> collisions, (P -Po = 2*surface tension/R ~= 100 atm   R= 14 nM)
> which is Impossible for oil or water vapor acting as a gas to form
> nanobubbles at these low temperatures,
> or, that nanobubbles are formed from formation
> of neutrino-antineutrino pairs which initiate the bubbles,
> and susequent Hydrino formation and EUV energy release
> causes the bubbles to expand to visible size, the 188 watt
> Instant Heater was immersed in a jar filled with SAE 30 HD motor oil.
>
> With a flashlight shining through the oil it took on a bright red
> color and thousands of very small (silvery)bubbles could be seen rising
> from the ~ 4.0 watt/cm^2 immersion heater surface.
>
> This experiment lasted about 2 minutes, because the immersion heater
> failed, apparently due to overheating.
>
> Hydrino Heat from the CxHy oil? What is the chemistry of the detergent?
>
> Regards,      Frederick
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 13 17:41:07 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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Subject: Re: A hammer.... Fontana invitation?
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	Hamdi, we have university help some times.  Do you have E mail
address for him,  I will write again.

On Thu, 14 Oct 1999, hamdi ucar wrote:

> 
> 
> John Schnurer wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >         Q: Do you think I have publicly demonstrated an interest in
> > Gravity Modification research?
> > 
> Publicly... depends. You had not submitted a paper on a scientific publication. If you have no paper, you  have nothing to discuss. You will be ignored  by the scientific community. Of course, if you had published, nothing will change ironically, and st

ill be ignored because gravity is a taboo. see Fontana situation. His papers are rejected. If you remember I posted the correspondence between Fontana and the Editor of the publication.
> 
> Now On the Fontana main page gravity related researches and submitted papers are separated from other papers:
> ----------------------------
> Speculations in physics:
> 
> This material is not generally accepted and requires further investigations.
> 
> A possibility of emission of high frequency gravitational radiation from d-wave to s-wave type
> superconductor junctions. (preprint - local copy with links)
> Los Alamos National Laboratory preprint database: gr-qc/9804069 , an improved new paper:
> cond-mat/9812070. 
> 
> A basic reference: On the Gravitational Radiation of Microscopic Systems, by Halpern and Laurent 
> 
> A basic link: The Gravitech Laboratory, coordinated by Halpern and Desbrandes. 
> -------------------------------
> 
> 
> > 
> > On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Hamdi Ucar wrote:
> > > This is part of the Dr.Giorgio Fontana homepage on list of publicatons:
> > > ....
> > > A possibility of emission of high frequency gravitational radiation from d-wave to s-wave type superconductor junctions. (preprint)
> > > Los Alamos National Laboratory preprint database: gr-qc/9804069
> > 
> > >
> > > Are you interested in developing these junctions with who was able to
> > > discover them? e-mail me. ....
> > >
> > > URL is "http://www.science.unitn.it/~fontana/"
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > hamdi ucar
> > >
> > >
> 
> I do not understand why Fontana did not replayed you. maybe he missed your mail, your or his  email server lost the mail. This sometimes occurs. I think so because academic people care to respond to mails, even they have negative thoughts. Even he did n

ot interested about, he may replayed like "Sorry, my interest on gravity is only theoretical,..."
> 
> 
> There is a no restriction (i.e. the paper was not needed to published anywhere before) to submit a paper to LANL archive. Only requirements are formal, the format, the procedures are quite simple... if you had access the web, it would be very practical 

to do it.
> 
> Regards, hamdi ucar
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 13 18:17:36 1999
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Hello List members,

I am posting this as a forward, because I thought it was interesting.  I would be interested in any
comments as to the validity of the concept.  Does anybody know just who this poster (wolfgang)
is.???

Thank You,

Regards,

Norm Biss
Erie, Pa.

10-13-99







-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [free_energy] Joe Newman's motor explained
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 06:18:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Wolfgang Metzler <wolfgang engineer.com>
To: free_energy onelist.com

From: Wolfgang Metzler <wolfgang engineer.com>


Subject: Joe Newman's motor explained


My name is Wolfgang Metzler, and I am new to this list.
I hope no one is offended by the subject matter.



The following information explains why no motor can ever reach over unity.

There are several motors being demonstrated by their inventors whereby the
inventors are claiming more output than input.  These inventors do not have
the full information required to properly test their inventions.

Because electricity and magnetism are complicated subjects which on the
surface appear to be simple, most people are easily convinced when presented
with partial data concerning these subjects.  I will endeavor to enlighten
you.

Since these motors use permanent magnets, I will limit my explanation to the
PM motor, although there are four types of DC motors, and they basically all
function identically.  These four types are the PM motor, the Series motor,
the Shunt motor, and the Compound motor.

The simplest DC motor has a wound armature and permanent magnet fields.  Two
permanent magnets are mounted in an iron shell so that one is north and one
is south with respect to the armature. The magnetic lines of force go from
the north pole through the armature to the south pole and then return to the
north pole through the iron shell.  This shell is referred to as back-iron.
The armature is the electromagnet.  The coils of the armature are all
soldered to segments of the commutator.  These segments, or bars, act as a
sliding switch, switching the current from the line to certain windings of
the armature.  The brushes, which are the other side of the sliding switch,
carry the current from the line to the commutator segments.  I am using the
term "line" to refer to the input to the motor because it is more
economically feasible to use a variac as opposed to batteries, although the
function will be identical.  The brushes are stationary and positioned so
that they will energize the coils of the armature in such a way that they
create poles.  But as the armature turns, the position of these poles in
relation to the brushes does not change.The brushes are positioned so that
the armature poles will repel the stationary field poles producing torque
and rotation.  To fully understand what happens as the speed of the armature
increases, it is necessary to understand how voltage is generated in a DC
Generator.

A DC Generator and a DC Motor are identical in structure and are
interchangeable.  Any DC Motor can be used as a Generator, and any DC
Generator can be used as a motor with only a minor change in the
connections.   The following are factors that pertain to both.

When a conductor (wires of the armature) cuts the lines of force (magnetic
field of the stator), a voltage is generated in that conductor (wires of the
armature).  There are three factors which govern the amount of voltage
generated:

1.  The number of lines of force being cut.
2.  The speed at which the conductors are cutting the lines of force.
3.  The number of conductors cutting the lines of force.

When voltage is generated in an armature, the current flows in the opposite
direction through the armature, as it would if the unit were being used as a
motor.  When a DC Generator is added to a DC power line, the output voltage
of the Generator must be equal to the line voltage.  If the Generator cannot
produce enough voltage, it will become a motor and use power instead of
generating it, and the current will reverse in the armature.  Likewise, if a
motor is pulled faster than its adjusted speed, it will generate power.
When this happens, the current in the armature will reverse and put power
back on the line.  This is why Joe Newman's motor charges his batteries.
But then, any DC Motor will do the same under these conditions.

COUNTER ELECTROMOTIVE FORCE

As soon as there is rotation of the armature in a motor, the lines of force
from the fields are cut by the windings of the armature, generating a
voltage.  This voltage is the opposite polarity of line (or applied)
voltage.  [The current flows in the opposite direction in the armature of a
Generator].  The result of this is that the voltage generated is subtracted
from the applied, or line, voltage.  This voltage is called "Counter" or
"Back Electromotive Force" (Back EMF).  One volt of back emf cancels the
effect of one volt of line, or applied voltage.  As the armature turns
faster, more back emf, or counter emf is generated.  As more voltage or back
emf is generated, the applied voltage becomes less effective.  The applied
voltage at the brushes does not change as the armature accelerates.Back emf
occurs within the turns of the armature winding.  Each turn of the armature
generates a portion of the totalback emf.  The turns near the center of the
pole generate more than do those at the outer edges.  The turns are in
series with one another, and because of this, the voltage generated in each
turn adds to the next in its ability to counter the applied voltage.  In
other words, it is cumulative.

Counter emf can be compared to an automobile battery being charged.  When
the battery is low, the charging amps are high.  This is because of the
large difference between the charging voltage and the low battery voltage.
As the battery becomes charged, the battery voltage goes up, becoming closer
to that of the charger.  When this happens, the current flow goes down.  If
the battery voltage equals that of the charger, no current will flow.

As back emf builds within the turns of the armature, less current will flow.
Less current will produce less magnetism and less torque.  The armature will
reach a speed at which the generated back emf and the load will not let it
go any faster.  If the load is decreased, the motor will speed-up slightly.
This increase in speed will generate more back emf.  The increase in back
emf will reduce the effect of the applied voltage, and the current will be
reduced.  The speed will again stabilize.  There is very little difference
between full-load rpms and no-load rpms.  THE VOLTAGE GENERATED AS BACK EMF
IS ALWAYS LESS THAN THE APPLIED VOLTAGE!  Without back emf, the current
would be excessive in the armature circuit, and it would burn out.

The speed of the permanent-magnet motor can now be explained.

As the speed of the permanent-magnet motor increases, the lines of force
from the permanent magnets are cut.   This generates back emf in the
armature.  The top speed will be determined by the load, the back emf, and
the applied voltage.  The speed of this type of motor is controlled by
decreasing the applied voltage to the armature.  The speed range can be
full-voltage, full-load speed, and below.  The speed and the torque will
vary with the voltage, and the amperage will be reduced with the speed.

This has nothing what-so-ever to do with E=MC*2, gyroscopic particles or
massergies.  These terms employed by the inventor are an attempt to explain
what is happening within his motor, and they have a way of impressing the
lay public.

Joe Newman's motor turns at such slow speeds, that it can never power an
auxiliary Generator.  The speed of the Newman Motor is, at best, a few
hundred RPMs, while a Generator requires 3600 RPM to operate.  It is all
well and good to take the figures at his low RPM, and project them to what
would be required of the motor at 3600 RPM, however, the motor can never
attain those speeds.  In addition, eventually the magnets will weaken.  When
that happens, there will be fewer lines of force for the armature to cut
(Voltage rule #1).  With fewer lines of force to cut, the armature will not
generate as much back-emf at its loaded or designed rpms.  The armature will
speed up to generate the required back emf to stabilize the speed.  If the
load increases with the increase in speed, the amperes of the armature
circuit will also increase.  At this point, both the speed and the amperes
are excessive, and so the armature will burn out.

Joe Newman claims that he sets his brushes outside the neutral zone in order
to generate more back emf.  For the record, there is only so much back emf
generated.  The movement of the brushes to a position outside the neutral
zone DOES NOT generate any additional back emf.  All this does is cause
instant air ionization when the heel of the brush leaves the commutator bar.
It also causes glazing of the commutator, rapid erosion of the brushes and
pitting on the commutator bars.

Because most people do not fully understand exactly what is meant by the
term "Commutation", I will try to explain in lay terms what is involved.
When you fully understand commutation, you will fully understand why and how
Joe Newman's Energy Machine works.  It is questionable whether Joe Newman
fully understands it, himself.  I am further baffled by the fact that no
else has came forward to explain Joe Newman's Motor.

COMMUTATION

The voltages generated in all conductors under a north pole of a DC
Generator are in the SAME direction, and those generated in the conductors
under a south pole are all in the OPPOSITE direction.  Currents will flow in
the SAME direction as induced voltages in GENERATORS, and in the OPPOSITE
direction in motors. Therefore, as a conductor of the armature passes under
a brush, its current must REVERSE from a given value in one direction to the
SAME VALUE IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION.  This is called "Commutation".  If
commutation is perfect, the change in current in a coil will be linear.
Unfortunately, the conductors lie in steel slots, and self-and-mutual
inductances cause voltages in the coils short-circuited by the brushes.
These result in circulating currents that tend to prevent the initial
currentchange, delaying the reversal.  Because the current must be reversed
by the time the coil (actually the commutator bar connected to the coil)
leaves the brush, the current remaining to be reversed must discharge its
energy in an electric arc from the commutator bar to the heel of the brush.
The most important factor is the voltage drop at the sliding contact between
the brush face and the copper commutator surface.

During normal commutation, the brushes are set in the neutral zone, and the
reversal of current takes place when the current is at its minimum.
However, If you move the brushes outside the neutral zone, this reversal
takes place when there is more current.  This is why Joe Newman gets his
POW-POW-POW effect which he attributes to his motor being unique.  This also
is very destructive to the brushes, commutator and windings in the armature.
This also produces RF which is undesirable.  The fact that the RF from Joe
Newman's motor lights free-standing fluourescent bulbs is not new.  I have
seen janitors carrying these same type bulbs across the hangar floor, and
seeing them light up when an aircraft was testing its radar system.

Hopefully I have been some help in explaining Joe Newman's motor theory.
Feel free to share this with anybody and everybody.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

The second law of thermodynamics is still in effect.
__________________________________________________
FREE Email for ALL! Sign up at http://www.mail.com


--------------------------------

The second law of thermodynamics is still in effect.
__________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 13 18:25:38 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 14:18:26 +1300
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
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Ok, here is my answer as to how a lens could alter the alignment of light

Are you familiar with larry springs experiments and theory of light?
he makes a macro version of a polaroid lens which is a number of parallel wires
strung across, with a transmitter on one end (sometimes a distant station) and a
receiver on the other the photons that had such an axis as to induce current into
the wire were absorbed, the ones that did not have the right alignment to induce
current passed through, but what if a photon was half way between the two? After
all we must say that light (at microwave and radio wavelengths that he used in
his experimentation) that was not perfectly aligned must have made it through
otherwise he would have read almost no transmission.
So what if the photon that that was half way wasn't missed somehow but rather
absorbed and retransmitted by the wires, this would ensure it was perfectly
aligned with the wires as it was retransmitted by the wires.



John Berry

Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 8:35 AM 10/12/99, Mitchell Jones wrote:
> [snip]
> >>This is all a rehash of Malus' law, I = I0*(cos^2 theta).  It does nothing
> >>to descibe how the polarization is changed, how the photons are reoriented.
> >
> >***{They are reoriented magnetically. To understand how this happens, you
> >need two visual models, one representing a photon, and the other
> >representing the internal structure of a polarizing lens. Consider,
> >therefore, the following:
>
> If what you say is true, why is it that
>
>    (1)  a 10,000 gauss magnet (or mouch more) will not polarize
>         light equally effectively?
>
>    (2)  a filter with no detectable magnetic field will
>         polarize light passing through it?
>
> >
> >(1) To develop a visual model of a photon, imagine a planet with a rocky
> >core and an enormously deep atmosphere, in which the atmosphere is filled
> >with negatively or positively charged sand particles (but not both).
> >Imagine further that the planet in question is spinning at such an enormous
> >velocity that the atmosphere shrinks in at the poles and expands outward at
> >the equator, forming a huge spinning disk. Now, since the disk consists of
> >charged particles moving around it in circles, there will be a very
> >powerful magnetic field with its axis aligned perpendicular to the plane of
> >the disk. If we now shrink this planet to the size of a photon and move it
> >through space at the speed of light, it becomes an excellent visual model
> >of a photon.
> >
> >(2) To develop a visual model of the internal structure of a polarizing
> >lens, you need to understand how Edwin Land (the college dropout who
> >founded Polaroid Corp.) created the first artificial polarizing lens. What
> >he did was suspend millions of microscopic herapathite crystals (a
> >polarizing substance) in a solution of nitrocellulose lacquer. The solution
> >was contained in a transparent cylinder of glass a half inch in diameter
> >and a quarter inch thick. Naturally, the millions of tiny crystals were
> >randomly oriented in the solution, and the solution took on the
> >reddish-black color of the crystals and was quite opaque. Land, however,
> >had studied the experimental papers of Michael Faraday, who had discovered
> >that the plane of polarized light was deflected to match the orientation of
> >a magnetic field. Result: Land placed his solution within a powerful
> >electromagnet that could generate a field of 10,000 gauss, and, when he
> >turned it on, he discovered that "slowly and somewhat sluggishly the cell
> >became lighter and quite transparent" and that "when we examined the
> >transmitted light with a nicol prism, it went from white to black as the
> >prism was turned." [*Land's Polaroid*, by Peter Wensberg, pg. 34]
> >
> >So there you have it: a photon is a spinning disk of electric microcharges,
> >and has a magnetic dipole oriented perpendicular to the plane of those
> >microcharges; and a polarizing lens consists of molecules that also have
> >magnetic poles, and which were forcibly aligned by means of a powerful
> >magnetic field, prior to solidification into that lens. Result: when a
> >photon passes through a polarizing lens, its magnetic field naturally
> >aligns to match the magnetic field within the lens through which it is
> >passing.
> >
> >--Mitchell Jones}***
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >>
> >>Regards,
> >>
> >>Horace Heffner
> >
> >
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner

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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: QM stuff
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John Schnurer wrote:

>Dear Michael,
>
>	Recap... add if I missed some:
> 
> 	QM is a Theory, a Hypothesis.  The math is all worked out, but is
> not applied to all systems  Quanta apply in some systems and not others ..
> as a mathmatical exercise of what should happen.

   I don't think you got it. 
   QM is a theory. It is not a hypothesis. A theory has been well tested by a
large number of experiments and, therefore, has become accepted as the best
available unification of all those results. A hypothesis has not yet been
well tested or maybe not yet tested at all.
   Quantum jumps between two states apply in systems that have such states.
It is not a mathematical exercise. It is the way the universe seems to
operate. The mathematics lets us make _quantitative_ predictions instead of
handwaving ones.

=====
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 13 22:20:08 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Experiment requiring QM explanation?
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At 2:18 PM 10/14/99, John Berry wrote:
>Ok, here is my answer as to how a lens could alter the alignment of light
>
>Are you familiar with larry springs experiments and theory of light?

No, I haven't seen that.

>he makes a macro version of a polaroid lens which is a number of parallel wires
>strung across, with a transmitter on one end (sometimes a distant station)
>and a
>receiver on the other the photons that had such an axis as to induce
>current into
>the wire were absorbed, the ones that did not have the right alignment to
>induce
>current passed through, but what if a photon was half way between the two?
>After
>all we must say that light (at microwave and radio wavelengths that he used in
>his experimentation) that was not perfectly aligned must have made it through
>otherwise he would have read almost no transmission.
>So what if the photon that that was half way wasn't missed somehow but rather
>absorbed and retransmitted by the wires, this would ensure it was perfectly
>aligned with the wires as it was retransmitted by the wires.


This is an interesting experiment.  Does Springer say what effect changing
the wire separation has on the amount of radiation passed?

I am curious as to whether the parallel wires actually fully polarized the
transmission (vs rotating polarization of individual photons, i.e. acting
as a birefringent, like cellophane.)   I take it two filters at 90 deg.
mutual angle cancelled all the transmission, and other angles attenuated by
cos^2 theta?

Let's assume your absorbtion and retransmission hypothesis accounts for
photon realignment.  This still does not account for the random selectivity
of the absorbtion and retransmission based on photon angle which maintains
a perfect (in the limit) photon selection ratio proportional to cos^2
theta.   The atoms of the filter absorb and retransmit entire photons, of a
single energy and wavelength.  The filter atoms can not absorb a vector
component of a photon, and pass the other vector component, therefore
classical mechanics has no basis for maintaining the cos^2 intensity
attenuation for individual one at a time photon transactions.

One problem with Spring's approach is that it is difficult to get the power
levels down far enough, that is to say detection sensitivity high enough,
to see individual photons.  Even if microwaves up at 3x10^11 Hz are used,
about 1 mm wavelength, the photon energy E= h*nu is only about 2x10^-44 J.
A 1 watt beam carries about 5x10^43 photons per second, so would have to be
attenuated by a factor of about 10^43 to get clear individual photon
counts.  I don't know if there is a device that can distinguish this kind
of photon from background. Some kind of cryrogenic detector like those used
in radio astronomy?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 13 22:35:14 1999
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 21:42:12 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Out of time
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It has snowed here and I am way behind on many things.  I will not be
responding for a while.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 14 01:09:48 1999
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From: "Nick Palmer" <nick7 itl.net>
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References: <199910131439478.SM00103 [192.168.0.2]>
Subject: Re: dielectric glow discharge?
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:05:48 +0100
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Rick Monteverde wrote

>I will also add that in years of flying and just being in this area
generally, I have never seen any similar glows around the power lines or any
other feature near them, nor has anyone I know ever mentioned any similar
phenomena with either the wires or gliders<

Hi Rick, I been hang gliding for 23 years and I never saw this either. If
your salt crystals explanation holds maybe there should be little luminous
seagull globes near the electric cables?

Nick Palmer




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 14 02:04:25 1999
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From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Nick -

> Hi Rick, I been hang gliding for 23 years and I never saw this either. If
> your salt crystals explanation holds maybe there should be little luminous
> seagull globes near the electric cables?
>
> Nick Palmer

This would seem reasonable. I've never seen anything else like it though.
But some UFO reports, especially the glowing lights sometimes seen on
hillsides and tops (I think there's been a rash of these sightings in
Washington state recently) might be accounted for by something like this.
But what would the "power source" be when these things are out in the
boonies away from power lines? Maybe geological or some sort of atmospheric
buildup like the kind that happens on some mountains. Like clear sky
lightning, that sort of thing. Whatever it is, it's apparently very rare.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 14 04:09:02 1999
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Subject: Re: OU Coffee Cup Heater?: Motor Oil Bubble Chamber?
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 04:58:07 -0700
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The 1500 watt   240 VAC "hairpin" water heating element operated
at 119.7 volts AC has a cold resistance of 39.7 ohms, thus provides
361 watts distributed over  ~72 cm^2 (~ 5.0 watts/cm^2).

Immersed in a jar containing about a liter of SAE 30  HD oil, no less than
7 inches tall so that the heater is completely immersed, the unit generated
enormous quantities of  very small bubbles.

Although the oil in a clear glass jar appears jet black, shining a
flashlight
through it turns it a ruby red color, rendering the silvery bubbles clearly
visible.

The type of detergent is unknown, but, may be CH3(CH2)11-OSO3- Na+.

The tough part will be getting the thermal data for the oil so that
meaningful
calorimetry can be conducted.

It may be possible to find a detergent that has potassium in place of the
sodium also.

Regards,      Frederick

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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:40:08 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Experiment requiring QM explanation?
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>At 8:35 AM 10/12/99, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>[snip]
>>>This is all a rehash of Malus' law, I = I0*(cos^2 theta).  It does nothing
>>>to descibe how the polarization is changed, how the photons are reoriented.
>>
>>***{They are reoriented magnetically. To understand how this happens, you
>>need two visual models, one representing a photon, and the other
>>representing the internal structure of a polarizing lens. Consider,
>>therefore, the following:
>
>
>If what you say is true, why is it that
>
>   (1)  a 10,000 gauss magnet (or much more) will not polarize
>        light equally effectively?

***{Land didn't use the 10,000 gauss magnet to polarize the light. He used
it to align the microscopic shards of polarizing crystal within his
solution of nitrocellulose lacquer. Since the shards remained in the field
of the magnet literally quadrillions of times longer than photons take to
pass through a polarizing lens, the work done was sufficient to reorient
the shards despite the fact that the magnetic orientation of photons would
not have been measurably affected by it. --MJ}***

>
>   (2)  a filter with no detectable magnetic field will
>        polarize light passing through it?

***{Magnetic flux lines occur in closed loops, and will settle into
pathways which have high permeability, if available. Since the
permeability, for example, of iron is greater than that of air, the lines
of flux emanating from the poles of an ordinary bar magnet will instantly
snap themselves into place within a pathway made of iron, if one is moved
into place connecting the north pole of the bar magnet to the south pole.
Once flux loops have hidden themselves within solid material, measuring
their density becomes problematical. This means is that the lines of flux
that form closed loops which are contained entirely within the material of
a polarizing lens are not detectible by ordinary means. For example, you
cannot use a search coil, because this method of measurement requires that
the probe be positioned so that it cuts the loops of flux, and is
perpendicular to them. You obviously cannot do that to measure the flux
density within closed loops in a polarizing lens, because (a) you would
have to destroy the lens to force the probe into the material, (b) even if
you were willing to do that, you wouldn't know where to place the probe to
cut the loops, and (c) the loops are probably microscopic, and so even if
you knew where they were, you would need a microscopic probe to measure
them. What this means is that "a filter with no detectible magnetic field,"
as measured by a search coil positioned in the space outside the filter,
may have flux loops of enormous density within the material of the filter
itself. That state of affairs, obviously, would not be detected by a search
coil positioned outside the material. Bottom line: the fact that a
polarizing lens has no detectible external magnetic field tells us *nothing
whatsoever* about the flux densities in closed loops that are contained
entirely within the material, and hence implies nothing about whether those
densities are large enough to alter the magnetic orientations (i.e., the
polarizations) of photons that are passing through the material. --Mitchell
Jones}***

[snip]

>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 14 08:52:14 1999
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From: thomas Malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Dennis Lee and the laws of motion
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I've been away from my computer for the last five days. Since I've been
attacking Dennis Lee, when my friend offered me a ride to his meeting
on Friday night, I went. What follows is a general discussion of both
his theories and some other questions that I've been thinking about. `


Dennis derided electric motor manufacturers for producing motors which
are overpowered for the load they move. While I know about this, I also
realize that the motor has to function over a range of voltages and in
most cases is a standard model which can be used for a range of
applications. He then put a voltage clipper in the circuit and
demonstrated the reduction in the motor's power usage, he neglected to
mention that NASA developed the voltage clipper however. I also know
that electrical motor engineering is a well understood area and that
while fractional horse power motors are only about 75-80% efficient,
that inefficiency drops off rapidly with multi horse power motors,
until it reaches 98% efficiency at about 100 HP. 


Later in the talk he detailed what he calls the fourth law of motion.
The force in question is generated by the reaction of the motor against
the load. Instead of mounting a motor on a rigid support, suppose that
the case of the motor was free to turn. Now the motor's power supply
would have to be feed though slip rings, but that is no problem, silo
unloader manufacturers have been building something like that for
years. The case of the motor is attached to a gear, This gear meshes
with a second gear which rotates in the opposite direction. The shaft
attached to this second gear runs parallel to and rotates in the same
direction, as the output shaft of the motor. The two shafts are coupled
together with a belt. Dennis has assembled such a motor and drive. It
can be run in two configurations: the gear attached to the motor's case
could be secured preventing it's rotation, or it could be allowed to
rotate and drive the belt which couples it to the output shaft. Dennis
had a volt meter and an amp meter attached to the base of the motor and
drive. With the case gear secured to the support, the output shaft
turned as a certain speed with a torque of 6 inch pounds. He noted the
power consumption in watts. When the case gear was allowed to turn the
output shaft's speed of rotation doubled, and the torque remained the
same, as did the power consumption. Dennis asserts that this means that
the power output of the motor has doubled. While he was demonstrating
this phenomena, he mentioned that the leather belt which couples the
shaft coming from the case gear to the output shaft was slipping due to
it's being worn smooth from repeated use. I think that he needs some
belt dressing. 


Dennis then demonstrated a permanent magnet motor. He didn't claim to
have manufactured this motor, so I assume that it is off the shelf.
This motor is coupled to a dynamometer. The dynamometer is a pump, the
input and output hoses go to to a five gallon pail of water. The motor
is DC and is powered by a battery bank. The DC amps are measured by the
shunt method. In addition there is an AC component in the form of
pulses which are returned from the motor to the battery bank. These
pulses are measured by a clamp on amp meter and are shown on an
oscilloscope. Dennis ran the motor and announced that the dynamometer
was indicating a power production of 3 HP. In order to produce 3 HP, a
conventional AC motor would consume about 2400 watts. Based on his
instrumentation, Dennis asserted that the permanent magnetic motor was
doing this job while consuming just 200 watts. 


I find this demonstration difficult to believe. If it were possible to
generate 3 HP with 200 watts, why not use it to turn a 2 KW generator
and build an over unity machine? I think that this approach to building
a F E machine has been tried and shown not to work. It would seem to me
that if you could just double the power output of a high efficiency
electric motor and turn a generator, the system would go over unity.
There has to be something wrong with  that motor and drive
demonstration, it would be like lifting yourself up by pulling on your
bootstraps.


On Monday I called my physics tutor, Frank Meyer. I started by
explaining about the third law of motion. In the mid nineties I met
Robert Cook, inventor of the Cook Inertial Propulsion (CIP) system. In
an earlier conversation with Howard Hickman, who used to teach chemical
engineering at the U of MN, Howard told me that an inertial drive would
upset his paradigm of how the world works much more than a F E machine.
Otto Schmitt told me that a working inertial drive or "unidirectional
momentum generator" would be "significant." Frank conceded that an
inertial drive would violate the third law of motion. 


Frank wanted to know how I was sure that the CIP was working. I told
him that Hal Puthoff had suggested that Cook support his drive on a
rope or cable and hang it from the ceiling  of a gymnasium. If the
drive moved away from the vertical position when it was energized, that
is a good indication that it was producing a unidirectional force.
Frank agreed with this. Norm Baker, Cook's financial backer, told me
than they had they had done that and it moved off of vertical. This
raises some interesting questions:  does this mean that the third law
of motion is now a general rule? is this development as profound a blow
to the Newtonian system as Mr. Cook and Dr. Hickman seem to think that
it is? would this also disprove the Relativistic universe, as Mr. Cook
believes it does? Following my description of Dennis' motor and drive,
Frank said that if it is doing what he says it is, it is "important." 


Dennis Lee in on his way out to the northwest this week. He will then
head south into California and Nevada, from there he will head east
into Texas then he will continue into Georgia, then he will go north
through Virginia and return to Pennsylvania. The dates and locations
are posted on this website at http://www.teslaelectriccompany.com .
During the talk Dennis said that he will allow scientists to examine
his equipment, so If one of you vortexians is interested in
investigating this claim you should plan to attend. 


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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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In a message dated 10/13/99 10:35:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
hheffner mtaonline.net writes:

<< t has snowed here and I am way behind on many things.  I will not be
 responding for a while.
  >>
Horace, 

Where is here?  We are still having summer in our here. (Central California).

Winter always asks: "What have you been doing all summer?"

Regards,

Bob Briggs

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 <Pine.GSO.3.96.991013081208.25314A-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
References: <19991013064304.9355.rocketmail web2105.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:50:40 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: QM stuff
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>	Dear Michael,
>
>	Thanks.  Helps round out the picture, a little.
>
>	Recap... add if I missed some:
>
>	QM is a Theory, a Hypothesis.  The math is all worked out, but is
>not applied to all systems  Quanta apply in some systems and not others ..
>as a mathmatical exercise of what should happen.
>		OK?
>

***{Hi, John. Since you are soliciting opinions about QM, here is my take
on the subject, as extracted from one of my posts to another group. Have
fun!

*******************************************
The mathematical framework of physics consists of mathematical constructs
that have been deliberately fitted to experimentally determined data
points. "Quantum mechanics" is an attempt to interpret those curve fitted
mathematical constructs in accordance with the notion of discontinuous
motion. Thus when experimentally measured data points fail to show certain
states--e.g., electrons in "non-preferred" orbits, or particles having
"in-between" spin--the proponent of quantum mechanics concludes that the
transition from one state to another takes place without passage through
the intervening states. By this way of thinking, an electron does not get
from one "preferred" orbit to another by passing through the in-between
orbits, but rather by simply vanishing from its position in one orbit and
reappearing in another one. And, similarly, a particle does not go from
"spin up" to "spin down" by gradually changing its spin axis, in the manner
of a top, a gyroscope, a "curve ball," or some other macroscopic object,
but rather simply vanishes from its first spin state and reappears with the
opposite one. Motion in the microcosm, by this view, is discontinuous.

The alternative view of the microcosm, which I call *continuum mechanics*
(and which is in keeping with the classical approach to physics), is that
the dearth of measured data points indicating transitional states does not
mean those states do not exist, but merely means they are too brief to be
measured with contemporary instruments. Importantly, note that when a
proponent of "quantum mechanics" denies such an interpretation, he cannot
do so on scientific grounds. The reason: such a denial constitutes a
statement about matters that have not been measured. Result: such a denial,
at root, is a statement about metaphysics, and thus must be evaluated on
philosophical grounds. Further, since the claim that the transitional
states do not exist is equivalent to the claim that entities can leap into
existence out of nothing and vanish into nothing, it follows that we can
evaluate "quantum mechanics" by analyzing the consequences of that claim.

Unfortunately for the proponents of "quantum mechanics," the principle that
*no thing may come into existence out of nothing or vanish into
nothing*--which I will hereafter refer to as *the principle of
continuity*--is part of the foundation upon which the entire structure of
human knowledge rests. If we assume that the principle of continuity is
invalid, or even that it *may* be invalid, then we lose all basis for
believing in the the existence of anything, including our minds, our
bodies, the external world, science, and, yes, even "quantum mechanics."

Such a state of affairs becomes immediately apparent when we ask ourselves
how we know that our sensations have sources. For example, how do you know
that, when you see a dog, those sensations are coming from an entity in the
external world? After all, if it is possible that sensations may leap into
existence out of nothing, then the dog, or the painting of a dog, or
whatever you thought you were looking at, may not exist at all. Result:
since we know of the existence of the external world by means of sensations
that we presume are coming from that world, it follows immediately that
without the premise that *no thing may come into existence out of nothing
or vanish into nothing*, we lose all basis for believing in the existence
of the external world. And, similarly, we lose all basis for believing that
our bodies exist. After all, we think we have arms, legs, lips, teeth,
etc., only because of sensations which we receive from those structures;
and, obviously, if those sensations are leaping into existence out of
nothing, then the structures in question do not exist. Likewise, we believe
in the existence of our own minds for similar reasons: we receive certain
sensations which we label as "memories" on the assumption that they come
from a storage area located somewhere in the "mind"; we receive sensations
from images which we presume to come from a "faculty of imagination," also
located in the "mind." Etc. But, if those sensations are merely leaping
into existence out of nothing, then the presumed storage areas, faculties,
etc., clearly do not exist. Result: we thereby lose all basis for believing
in the existence of the "mind," and, thus, of the self. Thus, by the
continued application of the quantum mechanical premise that things can
come into existence out of nothing and vanish into nothing, we are forced
to conclude that the entire structure of our knowledge rests on the denial
of that premise--which means: if "quantum mechanics" is presumed to be
true, then the entire structure of our knowledge, including "quantum
mechanics," collapses.

Bottom line: either we can know nothing whatever, or else "quantum
mechanics" is false.
*******************************************

So there you have it. :-)

--Mitchell Jones}***


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 14 14:09:59 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Antineutrino Sea?
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As absurd as it may sound, the Hydrosphere-Atmosphere (Biosphere)
Might be saturated with Solar Antineutrinos.

With the Solar Flux of something like 2.5-3E14/meter^2 per second
bathing the Earth on a daily basis for billions of years,there could be lots
of them around especially in the oceans.

With Mills' "Hydrino" (H) Hypothesis, this would explain the missing
Potassium
in the oceans, ie., it's tied up as (H)KI, (H)H, or Free etc., and virtually
undetectable.

Regards,     Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 14 14:10:13 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:07:51 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Dennis Lee and the laws of motion
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b42b64c9cb63 [209.181.169.29]>
References: <3.0.1.32.19991008191838.010c889c mail.eden.com>
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Thomas Malloy wrote:

>Frank wanted to know how I was sure that the CIP was working. I told him
>that Hal Puthoff had suggested that Cook support his drive on a rope or
>cable and hang it from the ceiling  of a gymnasium. If the drive moved away
>from the vertical position when it was energized, that is a good indication
>that it was producing a unidirectional force.

The device should be placed in a plastic bag, and hung on a two point
suspension, with the two points on a line at a right angle to the direction
of the thrust.


 Frank agreed with this. Norm
>Baker, Cook's financial backer, told me than they had they had done that
>and it moved off of vertical.

Oh, really?!? They should repeat this demonstration. If this is true, and
they can make it happen on demand, these people could convince thousands of
people they have a revolutionary product, and they could instantly gather
huge amounts of capital to develop this.

I do not believe this report, but if it is true, it is a darn shame the
gadget is not exhibited publicly. It should be patented, replicated and sold.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 14 14:26:55 1999
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Subject: Re: Dennis Lee and the laws of motion
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Jed -

We've been through this before here, but I thought it might be worth
restating here that the device has to be completely displaced so that a
vertical line drawn from the support point passes through none of its
volume. A gyro in a box hanging from the ceiling could produce the effect
where it moves off vertical, even so far as almost clearing the vertical
line - but not quite.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


> Oh, really?!? They should repeat this demonstration. If this is true, and
> they can make it happen on demand, these people could convince thousands of
> people they have a revolutionary product, and they could instantly gather
> huge amounts of capital to develop this.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 14 14:28:40 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:27:44 -0700
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From: Colin Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
Subject: Re: Antineutrino Sea?
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 If they are that plentiful in the biosphere, maybe they've had a
powerful effect on life processes. Perhaps you've identified Reich's
Orgone, Fred. Now-- how do we attract and  <italic>accumulate</italic> 
them?  <<G>

Best,  Colin


At 03:02 PM 10/14/99 -0700, you wrote:

>As absurd as it may sound, the Hydrosphere-Atmosphere (Biosphere)

>Might be saturated with Solar Antineutrinos.

>

>With the Solar Flux of something like 2.5-3E14/meter^2 per second

>bathing the Earth on a daily basis for billions of years,there could be
lots

>of them around especially in the oceans.

>

>With Mills' "Hydrino" (H) Hypothesis, this would explain the missing

>Potassium

>in the oceans, ie., it's tied up as (H)KI, (H)H, or Free etc., and
virtually

>undetectable.

>

>Regards,     Frederick

>

>

>

>

>

>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 14 14:36:32 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Dennis Lee and the laws of motion
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

>We've been through this before here, but I thought it might be worth
>restating here that the device has to be completely displaced so that a
>vertical line drawn from the support point passes through none of its
>volume.

Oh, yes. Right.


>A gyro in a box hanging from the ceiling could produce the effect
>where it moves off vertical, even so far as almost clearing the vertical
>line - but not quite.

Er . . . The center of gravity shifts? I am not sure how that works, but I
think you are right. I love gyros! The Laithwaite device was the only
mechanical  reactionless thruster that seems like it might actually work.
It is a shame he died before he got a chance to demonstrate it properly. I
suppose the work is lost forever now.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 14 14:40:40 1999
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Colin -

>  If they are that plentiful in the biosphere, maybe they've had a powerful
> effect on life processes. Perhaps you've identified Reich's Orgone, Fred.
> Now-- how do we attract and  accumulate  them?  <G>
> Best,  Colin

Wouldn't that be something. That would explain all those strange substances
he claimed to find all over the place where an accumulator was running. He
made up funny names for them, but I forget what they were.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 14 14:49:41 1999
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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: What's wrong with this diet
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Healthy Eating

As we all know, it takes 1 calorie to heat 1 gram
of water 1 degree Celsius. Translated into
meaningful terms, this means that if you eat a
very cold dessert (generally consisting of water
in large part), the natural processes which raise
the consumed dessert to body temperature during
the digestive cycle literally sucks the calories
out of the only available source, your body fat.

For example, a dessert served and eaten near 0
degrees C (32.2 deg F) will in a short time be
raised to the normal body temperature of 37
degrees C (98.6 deg F).

For each gram of dessert eaten, that process takes
approximately 37 calories as stated above.

The average dessert portion is 6 oz, or 168 grams.
Therefore, by operation of thermodynamic law,
6,216 calories (1 cal./gm/deg x 37 deg x 168 gm)
are extracted from body fat as the dessert's
temperature is normalized.

Allowing for the 1,200 latent calories in the
dessert, the net calorie loss is approximately
5,000 calories.

Obviously, the more cold dessert you eat, the
better off you are and the faster you will lose
weight, if that is your goal.

This process works equally well when drinking very
cold beer in frosted glasses. Each ounce of beer
contains 16 latent calories, but extracts 1,036
calories (6,216 cal. per 6 oz. portion) in the
temperature normalizing process. Thus the net
calorie loss per ounce of beer is 1,020 calories.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to calculate
that 12,240 calories (12oz. x 1,020 cal./oz.) are
extracted from the body in the process of drinking
a can of beer.

Frozen desserts, e.g., ice cream, are even more
beneficial, since it takes 83 cal./gm to melt
them (i.e., raise them to 0 deg C) and an
additional 37 cal./gm to further raise them to
body temperature.  The results here are really
remarkable, and it beats running hands down.

Unfortunately, for those who eat pizza as an
excuse to drink pop, pizza (loaded with latent
calories and served above body temperature)
induces an opposite effect. But,thankfully, as
the astute reader should have already reasoned,
the obvious solution is to drink a lot of beer
with pizza and follow up immediately with large
bowls of ice cream.

We should all be thin very soon if we adhere
religiously to this pizza, beer, and ice cream
diet.

Happy eating!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 14 14:53:02 1999
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Subject: Re: Dennis Lee and the laws of motion
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Jed -

> Er . . . The center of gravity shifts?

I'm not absolutely sure of that, and nobody on the list while this was
discussed seemed absolutely sure either! But it was the 'consensus' as I
remember it, whatever that's worth.

Experiment needed.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI



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This is one way to find 'em, Colin.

Don Ernst (Thermacore, www.thermacore.com  ) is "working" with Mills.
They are neighbors.  :-)

Who is Reich?

 http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US05273635__

Regards,     Frederick

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Colin,  

I worked with Don Ernst (and others on heat pipes) at RCA Lancaster 
in the late1960s. 
Our collaboration led to this patent, which was refined by NASA et al 
and is used on the Pioneer, Voyager, and Galileo space probes.

 http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US03801446__

Don't underestimate these guys.  :-)

Regards,      Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 14 17:33:12 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 20:24:44 -0700
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Colin Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
Subject: Re: Re; Antineutrino Sea?
In-Reply-To: <009b01bf1697$cebf9cc0$27441d26 fjsparber>
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At 03:59 PM 10/14/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Who is Reich?
>

You study hard physics.. Something in your description of the Antineutrino
Sea definitely struck a chord in me about Reich's Orgone, and I can't quite
put my finger on it..

Wilhelm Reich: 1897-1957. A student of Freud and whose study of the human
body had a strong influence on the path of Western psychology. His research
eventually led to a study of [so-called] "life energy" within (and
eventually outside of) living organisms. He named it Orgone. He did
hundreds of experiments and claimed to have discovered it's properties. He
was castigated. (understatement.) Other amorphous substances were
discovered [postulated] by their effects. One of the substances, [Oranor or
Dor?] when concentrated within a specially constructed "accumulator" box,
was said to significantly increase the decay rate of  some radioactives. He
reported this: that they had to evacuate their lab due to significantly
increased radioactivity. The accumulator boxes are similar in design to a
capacitor. The dielectrics used were organic materials, but not always. The
metals.. I think perhaps sheet steel was used. 

There are dozens-- perhaps 100's of Orgone Sites. Here's one.
<http://www.orgone.org/> 

I have, since first hearing of it here, held a tentative belief that a
*fractional charge* is perhaps associated with Reich's bions. Similar to
the health enhancing process of breathing negative ions, the slight
negative charges on the bions would enhance the blood's ability to absorb
oxygen. This is only a tentative mechanism to help me understand and
explain the increased health of those who used his devices. What are
"bions"? According to Reich-- individual (or clustered) units of something
very-very-small that has life enhancing qualities.

As far as I know, orgone energy has not been rigorously studied other than
by Reich and a very small number of scientists. Some scientists today still
continue with their individual experiments. The main problem IMO, is in
trying to get a handle on something that can't be seen-- Sort of like
neutrinos <g>. There is also an antipathy for the soft sciences.

Best,  Colin

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 14 18:36:10 1999
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: What's wrong with this diet
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>Healthy Eating
>
>As we all know, it takes 1 calorie to heat 1 gram
>of water 1 degree Celsius. Translated into
>meaningful terms, this means that if you eat a
>very cold dessert (generally consisting of water
>in large part), the natural processes which raise
>the consumed dessert to body temperature during
>the digestive cycle literally sucks the calories
>out of the only available source, your body fat.
>
>For example, a dessert served and eaten near 0
>degrees C (32.2 deg F) will in a short time be
>raised to the normal body temperature of 37
>degrees C (98.6 deg F).
>
>For each gram of dessert eaten, that process takes
>approximately 37 calories as stated above.
>
>The average dessert portion is 6 oz, or 168 grams.
>Therefore, by operation of thermodynamic law,
>6,216 calories (1 cal./gm/deg x 37 deg x 168 gm)
>are extracted from body fat as the dessert's
>temperature is normalized.
>
>Allowing for the 1,200 latent calories in the
>dessert, the net calorie loss is approximately
>5,000 calories.
>
>Obviously, the more cold dessert you eat, the
>better off you are and the faster you will lose
>weight, if that is your goal.
>
>This process works equally well when drinking very
>cold beer in frosted glasses. Each ounce of beer
>contains 16 latent calories, but extracts 1,036
>calories (6,216 cal. per 6 oz. portion) in the
>temperature normalizing process. Thus the net
>calorie loss per ounce of beer is 1,020 calories.
>
>It doesn't take a rocket scientist to calculate
>that 12,240 calories (12oz. x 1,020 cal./oz.) are
>extracted from the body in the process of drinking
>a can of beer.
>
>Frozen desserts, e.g., ice cream, are even more
>beneficial, since it takes 83 cal./gm to melt
>them (i.e., raise them to 0 deg C) and an
>additional 37 cal./gm to further raise them to
>body temperature.  The results here are really
>remarkable, and it beats running hands down.
>
>Unfortunately, for those who eat pizza as an
>excuse to drink pop, pizza (loaded with latent
>calories and served above body temperature)
>induces an opposite effect. But,thankfully, as
>the astute reader should have already reasoned,
>the obvious solution is to drink a lot of beer
>with pizza and follow up immediately with large
>bowls of ice cream.
>
>We should all be thin very soon if we adhere
>religiously to this pizza, beer, and ice cream
>diet.
>
>Happy eating!

***{Very amusing. Of course, as I am sure you are aware, the food calorie
(the one in the dessert) is equal to 1000 heat calories (the one in the
water). It's real sad! :-) --MJ}***


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 14 20:38:21 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:26:47 -1000
Subject: Re: Dennis Lee and the laws of motion
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
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I wrote:

> I'm not absolutely sure of that, and nobody on the list while this was
> discussed seemed absolutely sure either! But it was the 'consensus' as I
> remember it, whatever that's worth.
>
> Experiment needed.
>
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI

Experiment done, and I guess I was right, sort of. A thread was tied to one
end of the gyro axis and hung from a support above. With the gyro spun up
and set over sideways, the thread still stays in vertical alignment, and
does not move over to compensate for what you would think is a shift in the
center of gravity of the now sideways and off center gyroscopic mass. In
fact, the string moves in the *opposite* way - *towards* the gyro's
position, as the gyro begins to precess. See attached jpeg. There appears to
be a small centrifugal force generated from the precessional rotation that
makes the gyro pull out from under vertical - completely! So now I wonder if
that's really just centrifugal force, and would disappear if the gyro was
prevented from precessing. I think it would, but that's another experiment.

But I think that the idea that a gizmo shows reactionless thrust by sitting
out from vertical while hanging from a string may need to be revised a
little bit, or else the 'centrifugal force' I see really is reactionless.
What was it Laithwaite said? "There's something wrong with gyroscopes"?
Probably just something wrong with me...

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 14 21:09:42 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 23:00:46 -0500
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Bluish Spheres of Light
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>Jim -
>
>I've never played with the optical properties of a sheath of glow or plasma
>from HV, but it would certainly seem like something that could cause some
>fairly intense optical distortions if strong enough. If it does, then it's
>almost a no-brainer to make some attempt at optical cloaking for ships etc.
>As I'm sure you know it's been publicly revealed that ordinary lights have
>been used in daytime camoflage experiments on vehicles.
>
>Years ago while hang gliding off sea cliffs here in the early evening, I was
>flying low near some high voltage lines that came up to a point on the top
>of the cliff. While moving from dry air to a puff of moist air drifting up
>from the waves below, I experienced a strange electrical discharge
>phenomena. I suspected St. Elmo's fire, but the aluminum spars had no
>concentration of light at their tips. The strange thing about the discharge
>was that it was an even glow surrounding the entire glider in a spherical
>shape, according to observers on the ground. I specifically asked about the
>shape. It just doesn't seem right, as I would have guessed a closer
>following of the contours of the metal and human components would have
>occured. But if it were a reproducible effect, it would seem to be useful
>for hiding things within it. The image of the "transporter beam" in the old
>Star Trek might describe its texture best, bluish white and slightly
>sparkly. I do recall that the view through the light was a bit obscured,
>like I had light reflections in my glasses (my very first thought as the
>phenomena commenced), and I bobbed my head around to try to see past it
>before realizing that it was a real fog of light surrounding me. That means
>that the view of the glider was probably to some degree obscured from the
>ground, but I don't recall any specific witness comments to that effect.
>They just said that I was surrounded by a bluish sphere of light and it was
>really weird. Don't know if there's any connection, but a full moon was just
>rising at the time.
>
>The experience did teach me one thing: some UFO reports involving glowing
>spheres which might seem quite extraordinary at first could be mundane at
>their core, and simply involve strange electrical activity connected with
>birds, airborne debris, etc. "Strange electrical activity" seems like a
>perfect skeptic's brush for sweeping away quite a bit of reported phenomena,
>but I've seen it first hand. Hey for a few moments there, I *was* a UFO.
>
>- Nene Goose
>Honolulu, HI

***{Tonight on Art Bell I heard a lady describe such a bluish sphere of
light as a "Tesla field." According to her, Tesla had some theory by means
of which such spheres could be generated, and his idea was that they could
be used to shield objects--including even cities--from attack. The
impression I got from her comments was not that the target hid within the
sphere, but that missiles would bounce off of it. In short, it was some
sort of Star Trek "shields up" phenomenon. Frankly, I have never heard of
such a notion. Does anyone know any details? --MJ}***

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 14 21:51:17 1999
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Jed Rothwell wrote,

>Er ... The center of gravity shifts? I am not sure how that works,
>but I think you are right. I love gyros! The Laithwaite device was
>the only mechanical  reactionless thruster that seems like it might
>actually work. It is a shame he died before he got a chance to
>demonstrate it properly. I suppose the work is lost forever now.

Professor Laithwaite demonstrated his mass-transfer principle on BBC
television and he held a U.S. patent on his thruster, so I don't see
how it could be lost forever. Whatever became of the inventor, Alex
Jones, who discovered the mass-transfer principle and demonstrated
it to Laithwaite? Is he being held prisoner in the Tower of London?

For an excellent explanation of the mass-transfer principle see--

http://home.dmv.com/~tbastian/gyro.htm

For Laithwaite's U.S. patent, see--

http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5860317

Regards,

Jim Day

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	Dear Vo.,

	Somewhere along the line of George Land's work with optical
devices he was at the point following.  The story also gives a sort of OK
model of how THIS type of filter works.

	This filter is called a linear polarizing filter.  There are alos
polarizing filters for light and polarizing methodolgies for nearly  any
type of EM that allow the user to produce circular or elliptical
polarizations of either handedness and nearly every ellipticity.

	SO:  George wanted to make an inexpensive polarizing filter for
nearly any user.

	He used a sheet of clear polymeric sheet that was
thermoplastic,  as opposed to thermal setting plastic.  More
accurately
called thermosetting plastic, these compounds become quite tough on
application of heat used to "cure".  The first type, the thermoplastic
becomes soft on heating.
	Thermosetting = TSP ...gets tough with heat and additional heat
does not soften it.
	Thermoplastic = TOP  .... is solid, become softer with heat.
	We will say this discussion is for work at room temperature,
pressure of 1 atmosphere at anout 72 F, or STP, roughly.

	Quinine and some quinine salts form long needle-like crystals
or whiskers.  There were placed on a transparent TOP sheet and the
plastic has stretched while being warmed.  This caused a general
alignment of the crystals.
	Now quinine makes nice needle like clear crystals and its
melting point of 177 Cwill let you pull this stretching trick with
cellulose hexanitrate... with an MP of 160 to 170 C... but do not try this
because melted gun cotton is some twitchy ! with ignition point
thereabouts too.  So you pull and stretch in one axis until a reasonable
number of these little needles are aligned.
	SO:  We now have some nice needles of clear stuff with a different
  Refractive Index, or RI, than the polymer substrate. And the little
needles are all lined up.

	Now we take ourselves to a place of mystery, for me anyway....
 	Land then used iodine to make the rows of crystals a little bit
electrically conductive.  This is a little but like parallel wires but the
alignment is distributed a little differently.

	Now we go to a MODEL of light.... not THE model, but A model.
This model has  wavy line showing electrical part of the EM light ...
and... 90 degrees orthogonal the magnetic wavy line.  The magnetic part
does NOT give heebe deedle about the little partially electrically
conducting "picket fence".  And, mostly, the electric part does not care
either... EXCEPT the part which is aligned parallel with our pretty much
poorly conducting electric "wires" .... the electrical part of the light
causes little not-very-regular electric currents to flow and be changed
from the "E" of EM to a sort of hap hazard, higgledy piggledy motion of
bond angle stretching, general vibration and so on.
	The net effect of this is light which has its electrical axis
perpendicular to the quinine doped with iodine is much more not-absorbed
than any other axis.  The little fence model of polarizing filter and the
pictures of "light waves" we see in texts are usually drawn and marked
"bass-ackwards" by 90 degrees.

	Now the mystery...  And this is one I know the answer too .. but I
am not telling just yet and would like to see what the readers think....
	If we absorbed some of the  "E" part of "EM" ... WHAT happened to
the "M" !!! ???

		A good set of pictures and teaching is the 3 volume set of
Richard Feynman's Lectures.  Some nice material can be found in Volume 1
Section 33. ... From this section, paraphrasing Feynman: "Polaroid
consists
of a thin layer of herapathite .. a salt of quinine and iodine all aligned
with their axis parallel,"

	Back to the M ...I have a thinking after passing a polarizing
method such as this , I have a strong feeling a that after E is shunted
out, the magnet part .... which is wiggling  PD

PDF = pretty Deep Beetle FAST! ... but it will only go a short way
before it plays out.   

			J
	




































































































































































































































































































































































































  was the magnetic
part is changing in amplitude



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 15 00:58:00 1999
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Rick Monteverde wrote,


<But what would the "power source" be when these things are out in the
boonies away from power lines? Maybe geological or some sort of atmospheric
buildup like the kind that happens on some mountains>

Hi Rick,
            Coincidentally there was a programme on British TV last night
which mentioned the (sounded like) Morfa lights. An interviewee suggested
that quartz rocks in the area could be squeezed by small earthquake like
rock movements thus generating piezo electricity and thus a form of ball
lightning could arise. Seems like that would explain an awful lot of UFO
reports (though I'm not that familiar with them nowadays)

Nick Palmer (grammar checked on THIS message)


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Mitchell -

I don't know exactly what Tesla had in mind as to how such as system would
work, but everyone thinks Ronald Reagan is the one who first proposed the
strategic defensive shield for the entire United States. But Ronald Reagan
was about 10 years old when Tesla proposed just such a system to the US
government in 1922. As part of his reasoning for the need for such a system
he claimed that even if nuclear bombs turned out to be impossible,
eventually ICBMs (he described them but didn't call them that) would have
such accuracy that even with conventional warheads, they would make war
totally devastating for civilization unless there was a countermeasure. Of
course this idea went over the heads of the government folks like an ICBM.

Missed it by only 60 years.

Besides the shield, he claimed to have the technology for beam weapons to
knock down planes, missles, whatever.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

> ***{Tonight on Art Bell I heard a lady describe such a bluish sphere of
> light as a "Tesla field." According to her, Tesla had some theory by means
> of which such spheres could be generated, and his idea was that they could
> be used to shield objects--including even cities--from attack. The
> impression I got from her comments was not that the target hid within the
> sphere, but that missiles would bounce off of it. In short, it was some
> sort of Star Trek "shields up" phenomenon. Frankly, I have never heard of
> such a notion. Does anyone know any details? --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 15 06:23:15 1999
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Colin wrote:

So Cavendish determined that the errors introduced through temperature
change were insufficient to explain the deviations? ...

Interesting. I had several references to
other experiments of temperature vs weight change that indicated this
also (all around here somewhere)-- that buoyancy effects alone are
insufficient to explain the weight discrepancies.. Even from-- I think
also-- Poynting. He also looked into the phenomena if I recall, as did
other famous scientists. It's funny how they all quickly dropped it
though, when they were peer-criticised-- ...

"Extraordinary claims ..."

It's certainly one for my back-burner :-)=20

Hi Colin,

I agree with you about extraordinary claims; but, at least, the
evidence should allow us to question theories which would restrict
experimentation in these areas.

While we're on the subject of evidence, regarding quantum mechanics,

Mitchell Jones wrote:

The alternative view of the microcosm, which I call
*continuum mechanics* (and which is in keeping with the
classical approach to physics), is that the dearth of measured
data points indicating transitional states does not mean those
states do not exist, but merely means they are too brief to be
measured with contemporary instruments. Importantly, note that when a
proponent of "quantum mechanics" denies such an interpretation,
he cannot do so on scientific grounds. The reason: such a denial
constitutes a statement about matters that have not been measured.

Jack writes:

There is no more point in denying the statement that
"the dearth of measured data points indicating transitional
states does not mean those states do not exist" than in 
denying the statement that "no more than 30 angels can stand
on the head of a pin at one time."  Perhaps someday there will
be data to elucidate these statements.

Mitchell Jones wrote:

After all, we think we have arms, legs, lips, teeth, etc., only
because of sensations which we receive from those structures; and,
obviously, if those sensations are leaping into existence out of nothing
then the structures in question do not exist. Likewise, we believe
in the existence of our own minds for similar reasons:
we receive certain sensations which we label as "memories"
on the assumption that they come from a storage area located somewhere
in the "mind";

Jack writes:

Given the statement "if those sensations are leaping into existence
out of nothing then the structures in question do not exist" we
should ask, What does "exist" mean?

Mitchell Jones wrote:

Thus, by the continued application of the quantum mechanical
premise that things can come into existence out of nothing and
vanish into nothing, we are forced to conclude that the entire
structure of our knowledge rests on the denial of that premise ...

Jack writes:

Is this a version of Cogito, ergo sum?

Jack Smith


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	Dear Vo.,

	There used to be an occasional contributor...
	by these names

	Glenda
	Lady NADA

		Does anyone know  who this is and-or valid E mail.


	I have been asked to get a message to the person.

			Thanks,

					J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 15 06:51:45 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: What's wrong with this diet
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Bill Briggs wrote:

>Translated into
>meaningful terms, this means that if you eat a
>very cold dessert (generally consisting of water
>in large part), the natural processes which raise
>the consumed dessert to body temperature during
>the digestive cycle literally sucks the calories
>out of the only available source, your body fat.

Incorrect. The available sources of heat includes the entire environment:
ambient air, furniture, earth . . . In a temporate climate, when you eat
ice cream, your the body grows a little cooler and you radiate a little
less heat into the surroundings. The heat deficit between the freezing food
temperature and ambient is made up for by heat from the ambient
surroundings. To raise the food temperature from ambient to body
temperature, your body supplies the energy.

When you eat hot foods, you do get extra calories. When you are in a
freezing environment, for example stuck in a blizzard, and you eat snow
because you are thirsty, it cools your body down. It will, in fact, kill
you. You should melt the water externally if at all possible, or try to
live with the thirst.

Also, a nutricionist's (food) calorie equals a kilocalorie.

The first experiments to determine the energy content of foods (including
heat and chemical energy) and respiration were conducted in the 1787 by
Lavoisier and De Laplace. They used an ice calorimeter with a guinea pig
inside. Here is part of their report, from Hemminger and Hohne's
"Calorimetry."

	The outer thermometer being at one and a half degrees, we placed
	in one of our devices a guinea pig whose inner heat was about 32
	degrees, i.e. not much different from that of the human body; to
	save it from suffering during the experiment we placed it in a
	small cotton-lined basket whose temperature was zero; the animal
	remained for five hours and 36 minutes in the apparatus; during
	this interval we gave it fresh air four or five times by means
	of bellows; when we took it out we left the basket inside the
	apparatus, and we waited until it had cooled down; a thorough
	draining of the apparatus yielded about seven ounces of molten
	ice.

	In a second experiment, the outer thermometer being still at one
	and a half degrees, the same guinea pig remained for ten hours
	and 36 minutes in the apparatus, and the air was only renewed
	three times; the device yielded 14 ounces and five drachms of
	molten ice; the animal did not seem to have suffered in these
	experiments.

They had a refreshing, humanitarian concern for test animals.

- Jed

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At 09:43 AM 10/15/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Also, a nutricionist's (food) calorie equals a kilocalorie.


  A nutritionist's food Calorie has a capital "C", ...
which is to distinguish it from the calorie of which we 
normally speak.

  One "Calorie" is actually a kilocalorie, strictly speaking,
which is why this error repeats itself.  [bad convention]

  ==================================================

>The first experiments to determine the energy content of foods (including
>heat and chemical energy) and respiration were conducted in the 1787 by
>Lavoisier and De Laplace. They used an ice calorimeter with a guinea pig
>inside. Here is part of their report, from Hemminger and Hohne's
>"Calorimetry."
>
>	The outer thermometer being at one and a half degrees, we placed
>	in one of our devices a guinea pig whose inner heat was about 32
>	degrees, i.e. not much different from that of the human body; to
>	save it from suffering during the experiment we placed it in a
>	small cotton-lined basket whose temperature was zero; the animal
>	remained for five hours and 36 minutes in the apparatus; during
>	this interval we gave it fresh air four or five times by means
>	of bellows; when we took it out we left the basket inside the
>	apparatus, and we waited until it had cooled down; a thorough
>	draining of the apparatus yielded about seven ounces of molten
>	ice.
>
>	In a second experiment, the outer thermometer being still at one
>	and a half degrees, the same guinea pig remained for ten hours
>	and 36 minutes in the apparatus, and the air was only renewed
>	three times; the device yielded 14 ounces and five drachms of
>	molten ice; the animal did not seem to have suffered in these
>	experiments.
>
>They had a refreshing, humanitarian concern for test animals.

   They had patience.  

  Their experiments often lasted YEARS through several winters.  
Hmmm. I wonder if their measurement of the difference between the heat 
capacity of venous and arterial blood of mammals
was done with "humanitarian concern".  

   Ironically, when Lavoisier was decapitated two years later,several
thought his guillotine execution was also done with 
"humanitarian concern".   

   [BTW his papers (recommended) can be obtained in the original 
for those vorts interested in literature.]

   Mitchell





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 <3.0.5.32.19991013151359.00fd5630 inforamp.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:25:56 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: A new gravitation/unification paper (gr-qc/9910036)
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[snip]

>
>While we're on the subject of evidence, regarding quantum mechanics,
>
>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>The alternative view of the microcosm, which I call
>*continuum mechanics* (and which is in keeping with the
>classical approach to physics), is that the dearth of measured
>data points indicating transitional states does not mean those
>states do not exist, but merely means they are too brief to be
>measured with contemporary instruments. Importantly, note that when a
>proponent of "quantum mechanics" denies such an interpretation,
>he cannot do so on scientific grounds. The reason: such a denial
>constitutes a statement about matters that have not been measured.
>
>Jack writes:
>
>There is no more point in denying the statement that
>"the dearth of measured data points indicating transitional
>states does not mean those states do not exist" than in
>denying the statement that "no more than 30 angels can stand
>on the head of a pin at one time."  Perhaps someday there will
>be data to elucidate these statements.

***{It is not possible, even in principle, to gather data to settle the
question of whether any additional information can be gathered to fill in
gaps between adjacent data points, because no matter how many data points
we gather, there will remain gaps between them. Thus it will *always* be
possible, for persons who are attracted to magical thinking, to suppose
that the presently existing gaps do not contain any additional information.
That is why I said, in my original post, that this is a metaphysical issue,
and that it must be settled by philosophical rather than scientific
thinking. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>After all, we think we have arms, legs, lips, teeth, etc., only
>because of sensations which we receive from those structures; and,
>obviously, if those sensations are leaping into existence out of nothing
>then the structures in question do not exist. Likewise, we believe
>in the existence of our own minds for similar reasons:
>we receive certain sensations which we label as "memories"
>on the assumption that they come from a storage area located somewhere
>in the "mind";
>
>Jack writes:
>
>Given the statement "if those sensations are leaping into existence
>out of nothing then the structures in question do not exist" we
>should ask, What does "exist" mean?

***{Or, in the words of Bill Clinton, "It depends on what the meaning of
'is' is." :-) --MJ}***

>
>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>Thus, by the continued application of the quantum mechanical
>premise that things can come into existence out of nothing and
>vanish into nothing, we are forced to conclude that the entire
>structure of our knowledge rests on the denial of that premise ...
>
>Jack writes:
>
>Is this a version of Cogito, ergo sum?

***{Any similarities to the philosophies of others, whether living or dead,
are purely coincidental. :-) --MJ}***

>
>Jack Smith


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 15 08:53:40 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: What's wrong with this diet
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:57:51 -0400
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Hi Mitch,
>   Ironically, when Lavoisier was decapitated two years later,several
>thought his guillotine execution was also done with 
>"humanitarian concern".   
>
>   [BTW his papers (recommended) can be obtained in the original 
>for those vorts interested in literature.]
>
>   Mitchell

Compared to death by starvation, cancer, radiation poisoning, or a poorly
performed electrocution, the guillotine may indeed, rank right up there with
the more "humanitarian" forms of killing someone, and it can provide much
needed revenue (the key to all things I'm repeatedly told by just about
everybody these days) to the local economies of those communities that use
this form of public execution as entertainment for their people.  If brought
back today with the proper marketing techniques, it may even top some of the
current forms of entertainment, such as watching two groups of steroid
enhanced beefpeople bashing it out over a piece sewn-up and inflated pigskin.

And yes, if the Lavoisier papers are available online, I'd like to add them
to the calorimetry section of the Cavitation College.

Just getting into that Halloween spirit ;)

Knuke

 
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 15 09:21:45 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: What's wrong with this diet
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Mitch wrote:

>   Ironically, when Lavoisier was decapitated two years later,several
>thought his guillotine execution was also done with 
>"humanitarian concern".   

The guillotine is way ahead of other methods of execution. It was invented
to replace decapitation by sword, which was a gruesome, hit-or-miss method
(literally). Modern methods like electrocution and gas are cruel and should
be abolished. The only humane method of killing people or pets is by lethal
injection. That is what experts say, and I have seen enough animals killed
to agree.

Knuke, in the spirit of the age, points out:

[the guillotine] can provide much
>needed revenue (the key to all things I'm repeatedly told by just about
>everybody these days) to the local economies of those communities that use
>this form of public execution as entertainment for their people.

Local?!? You are behind the times. Think cable TV. Think Internet, think
franchise. This has global possibilities. Look what happens to CNN viewer
numbers during live broadcast wars.


  If brought
>back today with the proper marketing techniques, it may even top some of the
>current forms of entertainment . . .

Yes, marketing is the key. You can find advertising space for just about
anything, just about anywhere nowadays. Bananas and apples are plastered
with Disney advertisements and milk promotions. Take ballpark billboards.
Some are now "virtual," meaning they do not exist in real life. They are
bluescreens and only the television viewers see the messages, which are
added in electronically without stopping the play. There is plenty of space
on a guillotine frame to project, let us say, the "Intel Inside" sticker,
or the "Got Milk?" slogan.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 15 10:24:48 1999
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Subject: Re: What's wrong with this diet
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At 12:15 PM 10/15/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Mitch wrote:
>>   Ironically, when Lavoisier was decapitated two years later,several
>>thought his guillotine execution was also done with 
>>"humanitarian concern".   
>
>The guillotine is way ahead of other methods of execution. It was invented
>to replace decapitation by sword, which was a gruesome, hit-or-miss method
>(literally). Modern methods like electrocution and gas are cruel and should
>be abolished. The only humane method of killing people or pets is by lethal
>injection. That is what experts say, and I have seen enough animals killed
>to agree.


   Killing people is not "humane" nor civilized.
And killing scientists, of which Lavoisier was informed
the "Revolution" did not need, robs everyone of
discoveries, as well.


   ========================================


>Knuke, in the spirit of the age, points out:
>
>[the guillotine] can provide much
>>needed revenue (the key to all things I'm repeatedly told by just about
>>everybody these days) to the local economies of those communities that use
>>this form of public execution as entertainment for their people.
>
>Local?!? You are behind the times. Think cable TV. Think Internet, think
>franchise. This has global possibilities. Look what happens to CNN viewer
>numbers during live broadcast wars.
>
>
>  If brought
>>back today with the proper marketing techniques, it may even top some of the
>>current forms of entertainment . . .
>
>Yes, marketing is the key. You can find advertising space for just about
>anything, just about anywhere nowadays. Bananas and apples are plastered
>with Disney advertisements and milk promotions. Take ballpark billboards.
>Some are now "virtual," meaning they do not exist in real life. They are
>bluescreens and only the television viewers see the messages, which are
>added in electronically without stopping the play. There is plenty of space
>on a guillotine frame to project, let us say, the "Intel Inside" sticker,
>or the "Got Milk?" slogan.
>
>- Jed


       ???  Got vitamin A?  What a waste of energy.
There is enough vitamin A in any small store to cure
every child in some countries of keratomalacia and
prevent blindness.  There, but for effort, is illness.
Why don't you use those gendanken billboards for good.  ;-)X

   Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 15 10:52:53 1999
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Thank you all for your comments on the CIP. I will mention them to Norm
Baker the next time I talk to him.

The last I heard, he had taken the drive to Boeing for tests. Based on
their, Cook's,  tests, the latest model of the machine appeared to have the
potential to lift itself, a power source and a payload straight up. The
Baker family business is Payless Shoes, BTW.

I'm disappointed that no one commented on Dennis Lee's motor and drive. I'm
fascinated by his claim that the output shaft's speed doubles and the
torque remains constant, is this just another trick?


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 15 11:16:54 1999
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 <19991015155751421.AAA300 mail.lcia.com@lizard>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 13:09:59 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: What's wrong with this diet
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>At 12:15 PM 10/15/99 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>>Mitch wrote:
>>>   Ironically, when Lavoisier was decapitated two years later,several
>>>thought his guillotine execution was also done with
>>>"humanitarian concern".
>>
>>The guillotine is way ahead of other methods of execution. It was invented
>>to replace decapitation by sword, which was a gruesome, hit-or-miss method
>>(literally). Modern methods like electrocution and gas are cruel and should
>>be abolished. The only humane method of killing people or pets is by lethal
>>injection. That is what experts say, and I have seen enough animals killed
>>to agree.
>
>
>   Killing people is not "humane" nor civilized.

***{Not, at any rate, until we have a government that we can trust to
separate the guilty from the innocent with enough accuracy so that the
number of murders prevented by deterrence will exceed the number of
innocent men who are mistakenly executed. To achieve that degree of
accuracy, a level of compentence *far beyond* that exhibited by any
present-day government is needed. --MJ}***

>And killing scientists, of which Lavoisier was informed
>the "Revolution" did not need, robs everyone of
>discoveries, as well.

***{People who are obsessed with power hate the independent mind beyond all
things. That's why authoritarian regimes slaughter the best and the
brightest, and spare the conformists and dullards; and it's also why,
historically, independent thinkers have survived dictatorships by
emigrating to nations where government was more respectful of individual
rights. (This is a luxury that will be denied to them, under the emerging
globalist dictatorship of the UN.) --MJ}***

[snip]

>
>   Mitchell Swartz


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 15 11:36:36 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 21:30:22 +0300
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Hi,

A revised version of the paper is released. See http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9910036

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 15 12:00:42 1999
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The paper is now on their website www.blacklightpower.com

This might explain why the sodium/potassium ratio is 27.6:1 in
seawater yet about 1:1 in the Earth's crust, and about  4:1 in the
Dead Sea or other waters that are much more Saline than
the Oceans.

I still think Mills' Fractional Orbit Theory, is missing out on the Neutrino
Factor.

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 15 12:27:37 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: What's wrong with this diet
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 15:33:00 -0400
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Mitch writes:
>Why don't you use those gendanken billboards for good.  ;-)X
>
>   Mitchell Swartz

Sorry about the outburst of weird humor, but after three  nuclear accidents
in one week, and a Congress that WANTS to start testing bombs again, I just
couldn't help it.  Below is something more positive.

http://www.citizen.org/cmep/

An excellent resource for those concerned  about taking back the control
over how electricity is being produced in this country and abroad.  Included
are many well written and well documented articles from such activists as
Ralph Nadar, that identify the political leadership that is seeking
responsible change in this industry, and their corporate foes.  Subject
matter includes the energy deregulation trend, corporate energy mergers,
nuclear safety, nuclear waste, nuclear recycling, and alternatives to coal,
hydro, and nuclear power plants.  Contrary to the views of some of the
participants of this group, nuclear power has proven to be the most costly
and deadly mistake the energy industry has ever made, and it is only getting
worse, thanks to the enormous amounts of money being pumped into PACs and
the media to convince people to think otherwise.

Personally, I think that the Cold Fusion research community would do itself
a giant favor by trying to align itself with these sorts of organizations
rather than try and court the favor of the present power structure which has
proven itself to be corrupted beyond all reason.  The grass roots support
for these environmental groups is quite large, and the number of groups in
this country is in the many hundreds, yet after having read through many of
the webpages and looking at their literature, I've come to the conclusion
that these people are almost 100% unaware of the developments made by the
Cold Fusion research community, and the advances made by the nuclear
remediation researchers.  I don't understand how this can be, other than we
have just not made an effort to educate and market these technologies to the
right people.  Perhaps it's time for Jed and Gene to approach groups such as
these, and see what they have to say about it.  We're all in the same boat,
after all.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 15 12:41:56 1999
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 15:35:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark Goldes <mg3545 mail.com>
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Alex Jones died in November, 1995 at age 65. He was angry at Laithwaite,
feeling that his ideas were essentially propagated by Laithwaite without
adequate recognition of their origin. Alex had filed, but did not survive to
finalize, a British patent, and much earlier had demonstrated working early
models of his gyro propulsion (see, for example, German Patent DE-A2341245
issued in 1975)units to Hawker Sydley, a British Aerospace firm.

Magnetic Power represented him in the U.S. and shortly before his death he
asked us to take his most recent work to NASA. He had applied for a British
Patent, and was about to forward a package of proprietary material just
prior to a bad fall in a pub in which he hit his head. He never regained
consciousness.

His widow wrote to me. All of his papers were claimed by a daughter, and she
turned them over to Geoffrey Pardoe at Brunel University in Uxbridge,
England. Although the couple had lived together for at least 20 years they
never married. Thus, the daughter inherited his property under Guernsey
(Channel Island) law.

Very sad. He had probably done the best inertial gyro propulsion work on the
planet to that point.

Mark Goldes, Chairman & CEO, Magnetic Power Inc.

__________________________________________________
FREE Email for ALL! Sign up at http://www.mail.com

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Subject: Re: Blacklight Power's Potassium Iodo Hydride Paper
References: <012001bf1746$fcbc1f40$27441d26 fjsparber>
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October 15, 1999

Vortex,

Thanks to Fred for the BLP posting of their papers essentisally covered at the
ACS session.

To those that have requested the Mills video, I would recommend printing out the
papers so that Mills' and other's presentations can be closely followed without
squinting at the projected viewgraphs. This would be unavoidable for graphs and
data sheets missing at the site.

A paper missing is the one presented of  the German confirmnation of the
ultraviolet emissions.
Also missing is  the visible demonstration of the polyhydride sample and its
flexible, magnetic properties. And of course, the Q&A of the ACS participants.

Fred should contact BLP about his ideas.

-AK-



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 15 16:09:18 1999
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From: Colin Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
Subject: Re: A new gravitation/unification paper (gr-qc/9910036)
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Hi Hamdi and All,,

I see this:
"We see then that only in the absence of external electromagnetic fields on
the particle (U=0) is the gravitational mass equivalent to the
inertial mass. We also see that, atoms (or molecules ) can have their
gravitational masses strongly reduced by means of beams of
coherent extra-long electromagnetic waves(frequencies below 1kHz)."

BBGB, how can we build this?

Thanks,
Colin Quinney


At 09:30 PM 10/15/99 +0300, Hamdi wrote:
>Hi,
>
>A revised version of the paper is released. See
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9910036
>
>hamdi ucar
>
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 15 20:58:54 1999
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October 15, 1999

Vortex,

Martin Fleischmann spoke at the ACS Convention that he would be off to
Washington after this event. Robert L. Parks reports, very inadequately
and prejudiced, on that appearance in Washington.

-AK-

What's New wrote:

> 1. CTBT: CAN THE TEST BAN TREATY BE REVIVED?  It has to be, but
> don't look for it to happen in this Congress.  Majority Leader
> Trent Lott said yesterday that with changes it "may be something
> we'd like to consider in 5 or 10 years."  Meanwhile, many of the
> senators who voted against the treaty on Wednesday are calling
> for a continuation of the voluntary U.S. moratorium that has been
> in effect since 1992.  If we aren't going to test, you may wonder
> why they would oppose a treaty that deters others from testing?
> And why would the President call for a vote he could not win?
>
> 2. FREE ENERGY: MARTIN FLEISCHMANN SPEAKS ON COLD FUSION AT NRL.
> The term of choice these days is "chemically assisted nuclear
> reactions," but the co-discoverer of whatever it is was having
> none of that; his seminar was titled Cold Fusion: Past Present
> and Future.  He acknowledges that after ten years of research the
> effect is still plagued by irreproducibility, but if he has any
> doubts about the source of "excess heat," it didn't show.  At one
> point, as if speaking to himself, he reflected that "sometimes I
> think we've made no advance since 1990.  Certainly, not since
> 1994."  Sure we have; for one thing, Steven Jones at Brigham
> Young, who also claimed back then to see cold fusion, albeit at
> barely detectable levels, is now working on a simple solar cooker
> for people in Third World countries to use instead of open fires.
> On the minus side, we find that the Entropy Systems, Inc. ad in
> Physics Today, for a machine that runs off ambient heat (WN 24
> Sep 99), was also carried by Applied Physics Letters.
>
> 3.  CREATIONISM: TEACHING STANDARDS IN NEW MEXICO ARE EVOLVING.
> In 1996, the New Mexico State School Board was taken over by
> religious fundamentalists, who voted to remove "evolution" from
> the state's teaching standards.  The legislature later voted to
> put evolution back in after a debate in which a creationist
> senator brought a stuffed ape to the floor.  As has happened in
> other states, people began paying attention to school board
> elections.  The result was that last week, alarmed by events in
> Kansas (WN 17 Sep 99), the new school board amended the standards
> to prevent religious alternatives from creeping in.  For example,
> "Discuss evidence for and against evolution," was replaced with
> "Discuss the various mechanisms proposed to interpret evolution."
> Meanwhile, Kentucky replaced the emotionally loaded "evolution"
> with "change over time."  Hmmm. It's sort of like replacing "cold
> fusion" with "chemically assisted nuclear reactions" isn't it?
>
> 4. MOON: THE CASE OF THE MISSING ROCKET FUEL. Eighteen months
> ago, the chief scientist for the Lunar Prospector announced that
> the probe had discovered water in craters near the poles.  When
> we go to the moon "we can fuel up," he exulted.  Fuel?  Anyway,
> this week, with spectrometers around the world trained on the
> plume, Prospector crashed into one of the craters.  Dry hole.
>
> THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's
> and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 15 21:45:49 1999
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Subject: Re: Networking with the Greens
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Michael Huffman wrote;

I don't understand how this can be, other than we
>have just not made an effort to educate and market these technologies to the
>right people.  Perhaps it's time for Jed and Gene to approach groups such as
>these, and see what they have to say about it.  We're all in the same boat,
>after all.
>
What is your objective, to educate them or develop more funding for
research? I realize that there is some very interesting research, and some
promising results, but how far are we from producing a KW of electrical
power?



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 16 07:29:01 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment
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Invoking the Saha Equation that has been tried and true for ~80 years:

Log (Ni^2)/No =  -5040*Vi/T + 1.5 Log T +15.385

Where Ni is the number of Ions and Vi is the Ionization energy (ev)
which for Potassum: K <-->  (K+) + e- is 4.34 ev

Also, Log (2*Nd)^2/No = -5040*Vd/T + 1.5 Log T + 15.385

Where Nd is the number of H atoms and Vd is the Dissociation energy (ev)
which for H2:  H2 <--> 2 H is 4.526 ev, which is close to the ionization
energy
of potassium.

Thus at the ~1,000 deg K temperature of Mills' experiment using potassium
vapor and hydrogen over  Potassium Iodide (KI) there was about 10%
ionization
of the potassium vapor and about 3 % Dissociation of H2, but the the No of
H2
molecules was orders of magnitude greater (1,000 to 1500 Torr) than the No
of the
0.5 grams of K metal used in the experiment.

Then: H2 + K+ <-->    (H+) +  KH   or  (H) +  (K+) <-->  KH+

IOW, the "catalysis" effect of potassium does not require the effect that
Mills' Theory stipulates in order to effect formation of the "fractional
orbit" Hydrino.

This doesn't question the existence of the Hydrino, only the required
mechanism
for it's formation.

Coincidently, the formation of a Neutrino-Antineutrino pair should
be optimum at 1,000 deg K (or less) which would facilitate the formation
of the "fractional orbit" Hydrino, with a mechanism similar to the role
of the neutrino in the neutron, without going up against accepted physics.

Regards,      Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 16 09:31:51 1999
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Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:35:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Symposium WPAFB  Infotech 99 (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:33:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Symposium WPAFB  Infotech 99


	Dear Folks,

	I was asked to see if there was some type of symposium at WPAFB.
	I will go on the Air Base Monday but in the mean time the Air
Force Museum was kind enough to read drom the Skywriter, the WPAFB
newspaper:
	INFOTECH 99  10th Year  Dayton Convention Center 19-21 Oct 1999

	"Making Aerospace Expeditionary Forces A Reality"

	I will pick up any fliers on the conference Monday or Tuesday. 
	There will be some speakers and presentations from WPAFB.

				Best I can do for you right now.

	
						John H Schnurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 16 10:20:29 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Networking with the Greens
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 13:27:10 -0400
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Tom writes:
>What is your objective, to educate them or develop more funding for
>research? I realize that there is some very interesting research, and some
>promising results, but how far are we from producing a KW of electrical
>power?

Hi Tom,

My first objective is to replace large, centralized, subscription fee-based
modeled, anti-life power generation schemes with small, inexpensive,
life-supporting energy systems.  It doesn't matter if the system is wind,
geothermal, Cold Fusion, ZPE, plasma, solar or any other type of technology.
Ideally, a first-generation unit would cost the equivilent of $200 in
today's dollars, and be safe enough to keep under a baby crib.  There is no
doubt in my mind that this could be achieved in two years or less with the
right people and funding.  We've done a lot already with just a few inspired
nutcases for scientists and practically nothing for funding :)  If we can
send people into space, wire little kitties' brains to computer monitors,
and create particle accelerators, I know we can come up with another power
source.  To say we can't is a lie.  We do the impossible all the time.

My second objective is to clean up the existing pollution that has resulted
from the last 50 years of industrialization, and power generation so that we
have clean air to breathe, clean water to drink, and good soil in which to
plant real food for ourselves and the animals.  There is no doubt in my mind
that we can accomplish this objective as well, and if my first objective is
accomplished, the second will probably happen on its own naturally, but it
will just take longer.  I think that a pro-active course, however, would
accelerate that clean-up task, and save many lives.  There are a number of
nuclear waste remediation techniques that have been PROVEN already.  We
could start using them tomorrow if it were not for the obstacles that have
been put into place by the people that stand to profit enormously from the
existence of nuclear waste.

The Greens have proven themselves at times to be a very powerful group when
the issues and choices are able to be made clear to the general population.
They are intelligent, articulate, often politically well connected, larger
in number and far better organized at the grass roots level than the Cold
Fusion community will ever be.  They enjoy a popularity with the majority of
people because they have proven that they really care about the welfare of
the whole of society, and not a group of elite corporate entities.   Instead
of excluding people or demanding of them that they conform to a narrow
religious, or political mindset, they embrace people of all walks of life,
and try to help them have a better life.  If it were not for the efforts of
the Greens, California would not have passed the emissions control standards
that are slowly forcing the automakers to innovate. 

The members of the Cold Fusion community and the other alternative energy
groups share or should share the many of the same core ideals.  Yes, I think
that we should make efforts to bring the Greens up to speed on the
advancements made, and ask them to help us get the R&D funding that we need
to make more advances.   We need to show them that most of the funding to
date for the technologies that our people have developed with peaceful and
good intentions is just going to the defense contractors, and current energy
providers so that they may be developed into more weapon systems, or scaled
up, centralized power generation stations that are used to manipulate the
economies and destinies of the people that they propose to serve and
protect.  If a technology is shown to not be able to be used in a weapon
system, or if it can't be used to generate obscene profits, it is simply
bought up and buried no matter what its potential value to society.  The
protocol, mechanism, and doublespeak for this practice has become clear to a
large number of people now, and the people responsible for these practices
have to be removed from positions of power and authority and replaced.  This
much, the Greens already know.

With the availability of the internet, and the ability for people to share
information there has never been a better time for the truth about our
present lifestyle to be exposed, and for people to take action to correct
what is wrong.  It does however take a large group of organized people to
make any significant changes, and it means uniting with others for a common
purpose.  You may not care for the entire the agenda of the Greens, and like
any organization, they can't even agree on everything, but one thing that we
all CAN agree upon is that we are not getting anywhere very quickly right
now, and it is because we have almost no political voice at all.  If we want
to accomplish the two tasks mentioned above, we have to unite with other
groups and start demanding that we get what we want and need for our mutual
survival because that is what it is all about.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 16 11:20:18 1999
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject:  Some work at WPAFB
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	An associate asked what I did with Air Force and in science and
suggested I post it.
	Here is a little bit of it.

	Dear Folks,

	Following is some of the work I did at WPAFB.  I will put brief
description next to the papers.  These are not all the papers or reports
or press, just a sort of representation.  None of it is classified. I also
wrote a few little prose pieces of the history of some work there, if
anyone is interested.

NOTE:  All of this is in the open literature and there are several labs
around the world doing similar work, some of it very good.

	BAC means Brain Actuated Control.  I coined the term in 1986.  I
designed and built a system which takes one aspect of EEG, of brain waves
and "decodes" it.  The EEG type is the Visually Evoked Steady State
Cortical Response, or VER for short.
	You basically can learn to control the VER, women do better than
men.  We "decode" the VER and then its magnitude is a control signal.
	The RATS, is the Roll Axis Tracking Simulator.  It is a big steel
box which in no way resembles an airplane.  Except it it has a pilot's
couch and a color CRT monitor in it.
	The RATS has a big DC 5 hp motor and a computer controls its
ability to roll as rapidly as an F-4 jet plane.  In its usual use a
simulated disturbance of the roll function is programmed into the
controlling computer and the pilot attempts to correct it.
	The Human Engineering branch is dedicated to investigating how the
human operates.  The BAC, or EEG system can be connected to the RATS and
you and then "fly" it with your EEG, no hands.

Schnurer, J.H., Ingle, D.F.,Junker, A.M., and Downey, C.W.  Brain actuated
control of a roll axis tracking simulator.  Proceedings of the 1989
NAECON, 714-717, 1989. 
	This describes the RATS controlled by EEG


Junker, A.M., Schnurer, J.H., Ingle, D.F., and Downey, C.W.  Loop-Closure
of the Visual-Cortical Response.  Armstrong Aerospace Medical Research
Laboratories, Human Systems Division, Air Force Systems Command,
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, AAMRL-TR-88-014, 1988.
	This paper was early work

Tumey, D.M., Schnurer, J.H., Ingle, D.F.,Junker, A.M. and Downey, C.W.
Brain actuated control of a motion base simulator.  Proceedings of the
1989 NAECON, 750-751, 1989. 
	Great Paper, early work.  If you see the Discover Magazine
article "Brain Powered" you get to see a picture of my good friend Dave
Tumey.  Dave now designs life saving medical equipment.

Schnurer, J.H., Ingle, D.F., Downey, C.W., and Junker, A.M.  A real time
frequency analysis methodology for evoked potential loop-closure. 
Proceedings of the NAECON , 1530-1535, 1988. 
	This is the seminal paper, the real one that first describes the
method I designed and built.


Nasman, V.T., Ingle, D. and Schnurer, J. (1994).  Differential hemispheric
activation as a possible mechanism for SSVER self-regulation. 
Psychophysiology, 31, S71. (abstract) 
	Good paper with Tori Tepe, was Nasman.  Great investigation.

Calhoun, G.L., McMillan, G.R., Morton, P.E., Middendorf, M.S., Schnurer,
J.H., Ingle, D.F., Glaser, R.M., & Figoni, S.F. (1995).  Control of
functional electrical stimulation with a direct brain interface. 
Proceedings of the RESNA 18th Annual Conference, 696-698. 
	In this one we show we can take a signal from a quadrapeligic and
use it to actuate a Function Muscle Stimulator, or FES. This allows them
to flex their leg, even though they are paralysed.  I was responsible for
the FES and safety issues for HURC, or Human Use Review Committee.  Great
work showing it is possible to help handicapped people with this
methodology.
	Calhoun is a talented woman investigator, the paper above, Tori
Tepe is also a woman.

POPULAR PRESS:
*Mind over Matter.*  Discover, p. 16, August 1990.

Whitaker, Robert, *Mind Control:  A thought can move computers to action.*
The Boston Globe, pp. 25-26, August 16, 1993. 

Williams, Lisa, *Brain Over Matter:  New Virtual reality technolgoy
enables people to operate machine simplay by thinking about it.*
Skywrighter: for the Wright-Patterson Community, Vol. 34, No. 43, pps 1,
6, October 29, 1993. 

Oliveri, Frank, *Flying with Brain Waves*, a side bar in *Virtual
Warriers*, Air Force Magazine, pg. 33, January 1994. 

Daviss, Bennett, *Brain Powered*. Discover, pp 58-65, May 1994. 
	This one, by Daviss is one of the best lay treatments.

Hitchens, Theresa, *For the USAF, It*s the Thought That Counts:  Service
Experiments With Human Brain Waves to Control Fighter Cockpits*.  Defense
News, pg. 12, August 15-21, 1994.  (Correction printed Defense News, pg.
4, August 29-September 4, 1994.) 

*Nervenimpulse steuern Computer:  Forscher zapfen das Gehirn an auf der
Suche nach neuen Kommunikationskanalen*.  Focus, Nr. 28, pp. 104-112, Juli
1994.  [German]

Scott, William, *Neurotechnologies Linked to Performance Gains.* Aviation
Week and Space Technolgoy, pp 55-56, August 15, 1994. 

Daviss, Bennett, *Thinking It Through*, Smithsonian Air and Space, Vol. 9,
No. 3, p.  10, August/September, 1994,

*Pilot steuert Maschine mit seinem Geist*, P.M.: Peter Moosleitners
interessantes Magazin, Nr. 10, p. 26, 23 Septeber 1994.  [German]
 

Shine, Jerry, *Mind Games:  Thanks to brain-actuated control, the phrase
*Look Ma, no hands* may take on a whole new meaning.* Sky magazine, Delta
Air Lines, Volume 23, No. 10, pp. 120-127, October 1994. 


Shine, Jerry, *Control by Thought:  Think and it*s done!  Electrodes can
now monitor brain waves and convert them into electronic signals that turn
off the light or move a computer*s cursor.* The World and I, The
Washington Times Corporation, Vol. 9, No. 10, pp. 194-201, October 1994. 

	I did a lot of other work with humans and the signals from them
and non invasive sensors to allow people and handicapped people to speak
and hear and generally have a better quality of life.
	I did the EEG work for about 10 years, before and after I worked
with materials' sciences and magnetic fields physics.  Giovanni Modanese
and I founded the Gravity Society.  www.gravity.org  
	I generally do a lot of work with medical technology, to help
to make this lower cost and physics of gravity, fields and EM work.
	I have done a body of work in detection of non metallic land
mines, forensic science, seismic sensing and enjoy flying kites and
singing.  And I smile a lot and enjoy teaching, any field, any age.

	It  is impossible for any investigator is any field to describe 25
years of work and get the idea across.  I also study the history and
ethics of science.   Oh yes.  Experimental science is fun! 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 16 17:18:05 1999
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 20:16:27 EDT
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 10/16/99 7:28:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
fjsparber earthlink.net writes:

> Invoking the Saha Equation that has been tried and true for ~80 years:
  <<snip calcs>>

>  Thus at the ~1,000 deg K temperature of Mills' experiment using potassium
>  vapor and hydrogen over  Potassium Iodide (KI) there was about 10%
>  ionization of the potassium vapor and about 3 % Dissociation of H2,

        Now, how to get the H2 dissociation up to the 60 to 70% range....?
     
>  but the the No of  H2 molecules was orders of magnitude greater 
> (1,000 to 1500 Torr) than the No of the 0.5 grams of K metal used 
> in the experiment.

  Fred...I find it interesting in reading these papers at BLP website that:
   (1)  He is using K metal
   (2)  He is running very close to the temperatures I have found to give
        the best heat output, 1000K or ~725 C.

The only thing I'm puzzeled about is the pressure....1000 to 1500 torr!!
I haven't tried running at anything greater than ~200 torr because of
the difficulty in sustaining a stable discharge with the DC power supply.
Looks like I really need to beg,borrow or build a decent high frequency
HV power supply.  Something on the order of 500 KHz to 1 MHz, and hope
I don't bring the FCC down on me.
I don't want to excite this with microwaves...too dangerous.

>  
>  Then: H2 + K+ <-->    (H+) +  KH   or  (H) +  (K+) <-->  KH+
>  
>  IOW, the "catalysis" effect of potassium does not require the effect that
>  Mills' Theory stipulates in order to effect formation of the "fractional
>  orbit" Hydrino.


I think Mills has stated that H will  undergo"auto catalsis" once it gets
started with the K+. Think I read that somewhere in the BLP site.

>  
>  This doesn't question the existence of the Hydrino, only the required
>  mechanism for it's formation.
>  
>  Coincidently, the formation of a Neutrino-Antineutrino pair should
>  be optimum at 1,000 deg K (or less) which would facilitate the formation
>  of the "fractional orbit" Hydrino, with a mechanism similar to the role
>  of the neutrino in the neutron, without going up against accepted physics.
>  
>  Regards,      Frederick
>  

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas

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----- Original Message -----
From: <VCockeram aol.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment

Vince wrote:


> In a message dated 10/16/99 7:28:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> fjsparber earthlink.net writes:
>
> > Invoking the Saha Equation that has been tried and true for ~80 years:
>   <<snip calcs>>
>
> >  Thus at the ~1,000 deg K temperature of Mills' experiment using
potassium
> >  vapor and hydrogen over  Potassium Iodide (KI) there was about 10%
> >  ionization of the potassium vapor and about 0.3 % Dissociation of H2,
>
>         Now, how to get the H2 dissociation up to the 60 to 70% range....?

Using the Saha Equation and getting ~0.3% dissociation of H2 at 1,000 deg K
as opposed to Mills' use of the Ti Screen "dissociator" says that higher
temps
are required.

However, Potassium vapor in the presence of H2 exothermally forms potassium
hydride at 350-450 C:   H2 +  2K <--->  2 KH

At 1,000-1,500 Torr there was plenty of H2 (about 6.0E22 H2 atoms)
available to exothermally form KH from the 0.5 grams of K
(about 7.7E21 K atoms) in the Stainless "Bottle".
>
>   Fred...I find it interesting in reading these papers at BLP website
that:
>    (1)  He is using K metal
>    (2)  He is running very close to the temperatures I have found to give
>         the best heat output, 1000K or ~725 C.

Yes, the K metal melts at ~336 K and boils at ~ 1032 K, and the
potassium iodide (KI) melts at 954 deg K and has a binding
energy of only 3.38 ev, which is below the 4.34 ev ionization energy
of  K  or the 4.526 ev dissociation energy of H2.
>
> The only thing I'm puzzeled about is the pressure....1000 to 1500 torr!!

Thats how you get a decent number of  H toms at these temperatures.  :-)

> I haven't tried running at anything greater than ~200 torr because of
> the difficulty in sustaining a stable discharge with the DC power supply.
> Looks like I really need to beg,borrow or build a decent high frequency
> HV power supply.  Something on the order of 500 KHz to 1 MHz, and hope
> I don't bring the FCC down on me.

Save your energy. If you can't do it thermally, it's a waste of time.
>
> I think Mills has stated that H will  undergo"auto catalysis" once it gets
> started with the K+. Think I read that somewhere in the BLP site.

In theory only.  :-)

Regards,     Frederick
>
> Regards,
> Vince Cockeram
> Las Vegas
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 17 07:46:51 1999
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Here you go, Vince, add some H2 and K and use your 2.45 GHz 
Microwaves
but watch out for the rotten-egg smell of H2S. :-)

 http://www.andersons.org/lblsulfur.htm

Regards,   Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 17 11:29:53 1999
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Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:55:29 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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References: <3.0.5.32.19991012232351.010b2920 inforamp.net>
	 <38047150.304A9D13 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> <3.0.5.32.19991015190802.00b2f100@inforamp.net>
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Hi Colin,

I do not understand well the paper, I am unable find arguments why the mg would be reduced by the presence of external electromagnetic field from the equations. So I could not answer it. Maybe best is ask the author, whether can we build an experiment to 

detect the effect macroscopically with "low energy" resources in a amateur research environment.

Regards,
hamdi ucar


Colin Quinney wrote:
> 
> Hi Hamdi and All,,
> 
> I see this:
> "We see then that only in the absence of external electromagnetic fields on
> the particle (U=0) is the gravitational mass equivalent to the
> inertial mass. We also see that, atoms (or molecules ) can have their
> gravitational masses strongly reduced by means of beams of
> coherent extra-long electromagnetic waves(frequencies below 1kHz)."
> 
> BBGB, how can we build this?
> 
> Thanks,
> Colin Quinney
> 
> At 09:30 PM 10/15/99 +0300, Hamdi wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >A revised version of the paper is released. See
> http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9910036
> >
> >hamdi ucar
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 17 14:24:13 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 17:19:57 EDT
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment
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Vince,

It is interesting that in the KHI paper, Mills mentions relatively high 
pressures of 1000 torr to 1500 torr.  I still haven't read all the earlier 
stuff on the website, nor all the material in Mills' January 1999 book, but 
offhand, I can't recall pressures that high before, can you?

1000-1500 torr is more than three orders of magnitude higher than the 
pressure mentioned in the EUV paper, which consistently refers to 0.3 torr, 
and at least once to 300 millitorr, which of course is the same thing.

You mentioned possibly getting another power supply.  Are you going to try 
making hydrino hydride compounds using high pressure?

And by the way, Mills does say that hydrinos can autocatalyze.  In Mills' 
view, that's where the heat of the solar corona comes from.  In the solar 
corona, I think he sees the process starting with the collision of three H 
atoms, a collision that will form a hydrino, and then continuing by hydrino 
autocatalysis.

Fred, in your first message about the Saha equation on Oct. 16, you wrote 
that there was 3% dissociation of the H2 molecules in the KHI setup, but in a 
message a couple of hours later, you quoted yourself to the effect that there 
was 0.3% dissociation.  Which is it, 3% or 0.3%?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 17 17:47:19 1999
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Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment
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----- Original Message -----
From: <Tstolper aol.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 1999 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment

Tom Stolper wrote:
>
> Fred, in your first message about the Saha equation on Oct. 16, you wrote
> that there was 3% dissociation of the H2 molecules in the KHI setup, but
in a
> message a couple of hours later, you quoted yourself to the effect that
there
> was 0.3% dissociation.  Which is it, 3% or 0.3%?

You don't miss a trick, do you?   :-)

It was a typo in the first message. Should be 0.3%.

BTW,  H2 + ( K+) --->    KH +   +   (H) would be energetically favorable,
and should be occurring in the heated H2K vapor. There are also negative
ion sources that use H +  K  --->  H-  +    K+.

Regards,     Frederick
>
> Tom Stolper
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 17 19:52:03 1999
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From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ca-ois.com>
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Vorts,

Perhaps this is a topic for the Taos hum newsgroup, but I thought I
would let anyone here who is interested know that there is a wide
spectrum modulated hum in the standard 
AM band radio reception around here. 

I have a sensitive am reciever embodied in a 70's Pioneer reciever -
amplifier that is able to pick up only 2 or three regular am stations
from my location out here in the desert near Barstow, CA. Remarkably,
one of these is KCBS, a San Fransisco newstalk station about 320 air
miles away. I get practically none of the similarly powerful LA
stations, which are only maybe 120 air miles away. 

Instead, when I tune across the dial, I get various versions of a low
frequency modulated hum in the range of 60 to 120 cycles. There are a
few spots in this band that have higher frequency components, but these
higher frequency components are barely distinguishable from noise. There
is no variation in the duration and repetition modes of the low
frequency modulation components that are audible when the  dial is just
"parked" on one frequency setting, hence these are continous mode
oscillations that do not seem to be transmitting any "new" information,
other than the continuing exixtence of their transmission source, what
ever _THAT_ is. 

IOW. tuning in different frequencies and parking the dial results in a
different characteristic modulation mode, but this mode does not change
at all when you are just
listening to one carrier's "signal". If I were to guess, I would say
that the AM scene at least in this area, is being deliberately jammed by
whatever setup is generating this stuff. As I said this hum is across
the entire AM band 550-1600 khz.

Now why would anyone bother to JAM commercial band AM radio? ....Art
Bell?  
  
I can't really say how long this has been going on. When the big Mojave
earthquake happened the other night, I decided to turn on the AM since I
figured those smnaller stations in my area would have the local scoop.
The first news I got about it was on KCBS during a talk show about 5
minutes after the event.

Any ideas?

Jim Ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 17 22:17:51 1999
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Thanks again Hamdi.


I am not qualified on the theory, but the author, Professor Fran De
Aquino, recently joined another list and mentioned that a number of his
peers have looked at his paper and agreed with it, but concluded as
impossible to building such a device since the calculated optimal
frequency of ~10 Hz requires such a long antenna. He also calculates a
density of 100Watts/M2  as required but if his theory is correct, I would
suspect that <italic>some</italic> effects might be measurable with lower
energy levels. 


Several years ago, Richard Hull of the Tesla Coil Builders of Richmond(?)
designed a generator of Electrostatic Energy using, if memory serves, a
slightly modified 3 coil Tesla Magnifier. This was speculated by some as
being the type device pulse modulated by Nikola Tesla to Earth-resonant
ELF frequencies near the turn of the last century.  I believe that the
powerful ES pulsing technique delivers longitudinal electrostatic waves,
however, and I've asked the author if the type of EM radiation is
important. I suspect so.


Best,  Colin Quinney



At 08:55 PM 10/17/99 +0300, you wrote:

>Hi Colin,

>

>I do not understand well the paper, I am unable find arguments why the
mg would be reduced by the presence of external electromagnetic field
from the equations. So I could not answer it. Maybe best is ask the
author, whether can we build an experiment to detect the effect
macroscopically with "low energy" resources in a amateur research
environment.

>

>Regards,

>hamdi ucar

>

>

>Colin Quinney wrote:

>> 

>> Hi Hamdi and All,,

>> 

>> I see this:

>> "We see then that only in the absence of external electromagnetic
fields on

>> the particle (U=0) is the gravitational mass equivalent to the

>> inertial mass. We also see that, atoms (or molecules ) can have 
their

>> gravitational masses strongly reduced by means of beams of

>> coherent extra-long electromagnetic waves(frequencies below 1kHz)."

>> 

>> BBGB, how can we build this?

>> 

>> Thanks,

>> Colin Quinney

>> 

>> At 09:30 PM 10/15/99 +0300, Hamdi wrote:

>> >Hi,

>> >

>> >A revised version of the paper is released. See

>> http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9910036

>> >

>> >hamdi ucar

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>

>

>

>

>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 17 23:30:42 1999
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In a message dated 10/17/99 7:48:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jimostr ca-ois.com writes:

> Vorts,
>  
>  Perhaps this is a topic for the Taos hum newsgroup,
<<snip>>
>  I have a sensitive am receiver embodied in a 70's Pioneer receiver -
<<snip>>
>  Instead, when I tune across the dial, I get various versions of a low
>  frequency modulated hum in the range of 60 to 120 cycles. 
<<snip>>
>  Any ideas?
>  
>  Jim Ostrowski

Have you tried another receiver?   Same result?
If not, bad power supply rectifiers and or filter capacitors. If it's a 70's 
era radio then
the  electrolytic filter caps in the power supply are _really_ due for 
replacement. 

I too turned on the AM radio the other night at 2:48 AM after being shaken 
awake 
by the earthquake and the first station I picked up was a Los Angeles talk 
radio station.
It faded out after about 10 minutes but there was no hum or strange noise 
when I tuned across the dial.

Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 18 00:08:48 1999
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From: VCockeram aol.com
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 03:08:02 EDT
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment
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In a message dated 10/17/99 2:23:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
Tstolper aol.com writes:
> Vince,
>  
>  It is interesting that in the KHI paper, Mills mentions relatively high 
>  pressures of 1000 torr to 1500 torr.  I still haven't read all the earlier 
>  stuff on the website, nor all the material in Mills' January 1999 book, 
but 
>  offhand, I can't recall pressures that high before, can you?

    No, in all his previous papers I read, fill pressures ranged from 0.3 to 
10.0 torr.

>  
>  1000-1500 torr is more than three orders of magnitude higher than the 
>  pressure mentioned in the EUV paper,.....<<snip>>
  
    Yes. This would be nice if I can only get a stable arc (glow) going at 
the pressures
     he is using. Sure would be easier than worrying about vacuum leaks. 
Problem
     is the arc is difficult to maintain even at one atmosphere unless a high 
frequency,
     high voltage power supply is used. Then that opens up another can of 
worms,
     accurate measurements of input power.
     

     If you remember, way back in March of 1998 when I started this 
experiment I
     was using a high freq power supply, a TV flyback transformer that I was 
driving
     with a US Navy surplus sonar test set. This beast is a variable frequency
     signal generator, range 100 Hz to 100 kHz, that will drive 400 volts 
across
     a 600 ohm load.  All vacuum tubes, and it weighs in at about 70 pounds!
     Go figure how to meter that thing. The tubes develop enough heat to keep
      the garage nice and warm in the winter!
     
>  
>  You mentioned possibly getting another power supply.  Are you going to try 
>  making hydrino hydride compounds using high pressure?

     No, I want to stay with thermal measurements.

     Hmmm....I just thought of something....Those plasma discharge balls that 
Radio
     Shack sells for about 30 bucks must use a high freq supply. The glass 
globe is
     about 5 inches in diameter and the central electrode emits streamers of 
plasma
     that make a pretty light show. The thingy uses a 12 volt wall wart power 
supply
     so it must have a HV generator built into the base.... Hmmm...      
>  
>  And by the way, Mills does say that hydrinos can autocatalyze.  In Mills' 
>  view, that's where the heat of the solar corona comes from.  In the solar 
>  corona, I think he sees the process starting with the collision of three H 
>  atoms, a collision that will form a hydrino, and then continuing by 
hydrino 
>  autocatalysis.

     Yep, that's what I read. Seems like if you could get just a hydrogen 
plasma
      going in a Tokamak style confinement it would autocatalyze, and no nasty
      radiation either. Any old used Tokamaks laying around?
>  
> .....<<snip>>

>  Tom Stolper

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 18 00:44:52 1999
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: [OFF TOPIC] the perihelion of Nibiru
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 17:41:13 +1000
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Nibiru or "the planet of crossing" is supposed by Sitchin and every
reference I have come across since to have a perihelion at the asteroid
belt. I contend however that rather than the asteroid belt being the
perihelion, it is the point at which the highly elliptical orbit
intersects the ecliptic (i.e. the "crossing points"). This makes more
sense of the story of the breakup of Tiamat, in which Nibiru "returns to
finish off the planet".
Note that the perihelion cannot lie *in* the asteroid belt, but would
have to lie above or below it, as the sun lies at the focal point of the
ellipse, hence the end of the ellipse can't lie in the ecliptic unless
the entire orbit lies in the ecliptic. So the only way that the moons of
nibiru could have broken up Tiamat was if the asteroid belt (the remains
of Tiamat) lay at the point where the orbit of nibiru intersected the
ecliptic.

If so, then there should be a gap in the asteroid belt where Nibiru
passes through it twice every 3600 years. Such a nice clean gap exists
at 2 AU (see http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sb_distrib.html).
Based upon these two figures, it is possible to calculate, that the
perihelion is in fact at 1 AU, i.e. Earth's orbit! Or at least it would
be Earth's orbit, if that of Nibiru were not inclined to the ecliptic.
Nevertheless it should be clear that this implies that on those rare
occasions when the timing is "just right", Earth and Nibiru can approach
quite closely. If Nibiru is as large as suspected, then the
gravitational effects on the Earth can be considerable. 
I suspect that just such a close approach was responsible for the
upheaval that gave rise to "the flood".

Orbit of Nibiru:

Semi-major axis = 234.892 AU, semi-minor axis = 21.675 AU duration of
period within the orbit of the asteroid belt = 31.4 weeks.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 18 01:26:58 1999
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Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 01:21:08 -0700
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ca-ois.com>
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VCockeram aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 10/17/99 7:48:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> jimostr ca-ois.com writes:
> 
> > Vorts,
> >
> >  Perhaps this is a topic for the Taos hum newsgroup,
> <<snip>>
> >  I have a sensitive am receiver embodied in a 70's Pioneer receiver -
> <<snip>>
> >  Instead, when I tune across the dial, I get various versions of a low
> >  frequency modulated hum in the range of 60 to 120 cycles.
> <<snip>>
> >  Any ideas?
> >
> >  Jim Ostrowski
> 
> Have you tried another receiver?  Same result?

Don't have another AM receiver here but I do have one at my business in
town. I'll bring it back with me tommorow and check.

 > If not, bad power supply rectifiers and or filter capacitors.

If it were that, I've never seen a case like it where only the AM
section was affected and not the other inputs such as tape and of course
the built-in FM.  And even in that case I see no reason for diferent
kinds of modulations depending on fequency tuned like I described.
But..I won't rule it out until I check with another receiver like you
suggest, Vince. 

I repaired this unit a couple of years ago when I bought it for cheap
when it had a couple of shorted output xistors. I remember checking all
the functions after replacing the transistors and didn't notice any
problem w/ the AM then.

> If it's a 70's
> era radio then
> the  electrolytic filter caps in the power supply are _really_ due for
> replacement.
>

We'll see. Thanks for your help. 

Jim O.
 
> (snip)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 18 02:09:03 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Mills' Hydrinos & Potassium Heat Pipes
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 03:02:35 -0700
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What goes around, comes around.

The potassium-filled Nickel Heat Pipes operated at ~1,000 Kelvin are
routinely cleaned using H2 to Reduce the NiOx to as low a value as
possible. (especially if you want to have the thing operate in space for
30 yearsor more).

Don Ernst at Thermacore (www.thermacore.com ) knows this better than
anyone.    :-)

With several layers of 100 mesh nickel wirecloth acting as a "wick" for
the molten potassium and the pipe filled with H2 at a pressure about
the same as the vapor pressure of the potassium at a given temperature:

2 H2 + 2 K <---> 2 KH  + Heat, (Plus Hydrino Hydride) which will compress at
the heat rejection (potassium condensation)end of the heat pipe where it
can be bled off for use/analysis.

Regards,      Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 18 02:35:47 1999
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Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 23:33:33 -1000
Subject: Stare at THIS metric!
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
To: "vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Vo -

"Stare at this metric! The space-time on gyro looks like gravitational wabe
aren't you?" [sic]

So says the text on a page within the site:

http://www.sphere.ad.jp/force/Enlishindex.html

Come to think of it, I am feeling like a bit like a gravitational wabe. I've
been browsing the fringe gyroscope stuff on the web and came across this
site in Japan. I love nutty Japanese to English translations. They're one of
the few things I've ever laughed at so hard I've actually hurt myself.
Besides that, this seems interesting too. It's all relativistic speed stuff,
sort of like some of Forward's ideas - cool in principle, but how'ya gonna
build it? Yet another star-drive just out of the reach of the engineering
grasp of us puny Earthlings. Out of the question for solid matter I'm sure,
but I'm not so sure about sub-atomics or particle beams, etc. As they say on
the site: "We may need waiting for an age of great-grandchild."

I wonder if the great-grandchild would be able to translate this stuff any
better. I hope not!  :)

Rock on, Mr. B.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI
                                                                          

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Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] the perihelion of Nibiru
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Robin -

You said:

> Note that the perihelion cannot lie *in* the asteroid belt, but would
> have to lie above or below it, as the sun lies at the focal point of the
> ellipse, hence the end of the ellipse can't lie in the ecliptic unless
> the entire orbit lies in the ecliptic. So the only way that the moons of
> nibiru could have broken up Tiamat was if the asteroid belt (the remains
> of Tiamat) lay at the point where the orbit of nibiru intersected the
> ecliptic.

So the orbit of Nibiru would more likely be inclined to the ecliptic?

> Based upon these two figures, it is possible to calculate, that the
> perihelion is in fact at 1 AU, i.e. Earth's orbit! Or at least it would
> be Earth's orbit, if that of Nibiru were not inclined to the ecliptic.

So the orbit of Nibiru would more likely *NOT* be inclined to the ecliptic?

It's probably my misunderstanding of what you wrote that makes the apparent
contradiction. Anyway, in the legend the earth IS the major remnant of
Tiamat, if I remember. Is that the relationship you're referring to?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 18 02:58:35 1999
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	What is a wabe?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 18 06:19:29 1999
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] the perihelion of Nibiru
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 23:11:52 +1000
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On Sun, 17 Oct 1999 23:54:00 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote:

>Robin -
>
>You said:
>
>> Note that the perihelion cannot lie *in* the asteroid belt, but would
>> have to lie above or below it, as the sun lies at the focal point of the
>> ellipse, hence the end of the ellipse can't lie in the ecliptic unless
>> the entire orbit lies in the ecliptic. So the only way that the moons of
>> nibiru could have broken up Tiamat was if the asteroid belt (the remains
>> of Tiamat) lay at the point where the orbit of nibiru intersected the
>> ecliptic.
>
>So the orbit of Nibiru would more likely be inclined to the ecliptic?

Whether or not it does, I don't know.

My point was that a point *in* the asteroid belt could only be the
perihelion, if the orbit lay in the ecliptic.
IOW an orbit at an angle to the ecliptic has it's perihelion outside the
ecliptic.


Sitchin thinks it is at an angle, hence a point in the asteroid belt
cannot be the perihelion though a point above or below it could be.
However in this case, the existing "hole" in the asteroid belt goes
begging for an explanation as it were, and the asteroid belt would also
no longer be the point of crossing.

>
>> Based upon these two figures, it is possible to calculate, that the
>> perihelion is in fact at 1 AU, i.e. Earth's orbit! Or at least it would
>> be Earth's orbit, if that of Nibiru were not inclined to the ecliptic.
>
>So the orbit of Nibiru would more likely *NOT* be inclined to the ecliptic?

That doesn't follow from what I wrote. What I am trying to say is that
Nibiru comes much closer to the Earth than anyone in modern times has
heretofore deemed plausible. I wasn't trying to make an argument either
for or against Nibiru lying in the plain of the ecliptic. BTW the closer
it lies to the plain, the worse off we are. In a way this would appear
to prove that it doesn't, otherwise Earth probably wouldn't still be
where it is today.

>
>It's probably my misunderstanding of what you wrote that makes the apparent
>contradiction. Anyway, in the legend the earth IS the major remnant of
>Tiamat, if I remember. Is that the relationship you're referring to?

In a way yes.
I suspect that the 1 AU distance is no coincidence, but rather a result
of a causal link, though neither my mechanics nor my maths are good
enough to prove it.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] the perihelion of Nibiru
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>Nibiru or "the planet of crossing" is supposed by Sitchin and every
>reference I have come across since to have a perihelion at the asteroid
>belt. I contend however that rather than the asteroid belt being the
>perihelion, it is the point at which the highly elliptical orbit
>intersects the ecliptic (i.e. the "crossing points"). This makes more
>sense of the story of the breakup of Tiamat, in which Nibiru "returns to
>finish off the planet".
>Note that the perihelion cannot lie *in* the asteroid belt, but would
>have to lie above or below it, as the sun lies at the focal point of the
>ellipse, hence the end of the ellipse can't lie in the ecliptic unless
>the entire orbit lies in the ecliptic.

***{It can if we treat the asteroid belt as if it lies in the ecliptic
(i.e., in the plane of Earth's orbit)--which, practically speaking, it
does. Assume the entire orbit of Nibiru lies in the ecliptic, with its
perihelion (nearest point to the sun) at the asteroid belt. Draw a line
connecting the perihelion to the sun. That line, when extended to the
aphelion (farthest point from the sun) will be the long axis of the orbit
(the major axis), which will also lie in the ecliptic. But if we now rotate
the plane of Nibiru's orbit about its major axis, we find that there exists
an infinite number of possible orientations of that plane, which are *not*
entirely in the ecliptic. --Mitchell Jones}***

  So the only way that the moons of
>nibiru could have broken up Tiamat was if the asteroid belt (the remains
>of Tiamat) lay at the point where the orbit of nibiru intersected the
>ecliptic.
>
>If so, then there should be a gap in the asteroid belt where Nibiru
>passes through it twice every 3600 years. Such a nice clean gap exists
>at 2 AU (see http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sb_distrib.html).
>Based upon these two figures, it is possible to calculate, that the
>perihelion is in fact at 1 AU, i.e. Earth's orbit! Or at least it would
>be Earth's orbit, if that of Nibiru were not inclined to the ecliptic.

***{I am not sure where you obtained the 3600 year period for Nibiru's
oribt, but unless there are additional assumptions not stated in your post,
there is no necessity that it pass through the asteroid belt twice. The
major axis of its orbit can lie in the ecliptic with a perihelion in the
asteroid belt, even if the aphelion is not in the asteroid belt. --MJ}***

>Nevertheless it should be clear that this implies that on those rare
>occasions when the timing is "just right", Earth and Nibiru can approach
>quite closely. If Nibiru is as large as suspected, then the
>gravitational effects on the Earth can be considerable.
>I suspect that just such a close approach was responsible for the
>upheaval that gave rise to "the flood".
>
>Orbit of Nibiru:
>
>Semi-major axis = 234.892 AU, semi-minor axis = 21.675 AU duration of
>period within the orbit of the asteroid belt = 31.4 weeks.
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

***{As a matter of interest, Tom vanFlandern was on Art Bell the other
night, discussing the theory that Mars was originally a moon of a larger
planet which--get this--"exploded," leaving the asteroid belt. I crawled
into the sack before he supplied much detail, but my guess is that he is
disturbed by the same observations that led to the Nibiru theory. (But why
would a planet explode? Does the U235 in the core settle to the center,
forming a critical mass, as in the Japanese nuclear accident? Does anyone
know what he posits as the cause of a planet exploding?) --MJ}***


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jed Rothwell equation: "to disagree" = "to be insane."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 18 07:50:32 1999
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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 17:23:53 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Subject: An interesting theory on Pioner 10/11 anomalous acceleration 
 (gr-qc/9910054)
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Hi, 

This paper finally explain the phenomenon by a new gravitational model.

"However, it is an intriguing fact that the size of the anomalous acceleration is of the order cH for all the spacecraft, where H is the Hubble parameter. Since this seems to be too much of a coincidence one may suspect that the data indicate the existenc

e of new physics rather than a prosaic explanation based on standard theory. This has beenduly noted by others [9]. But to be acceptable, any non-standard explanation should follow naturally from a general theoretical framework. In this paper we show that

 such an explanation can be found, thus the data may indeed be taken as evidence for new physics."

Regards,
hamdi ucar


General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract
gr-qc/9910054

From: Dag Ostvang <dagost albert.mnfak.unit.no>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 02:58:47 GMT   (8kb)

An Assumption of a Static Gravitational Field
Resulting in an Apparently Anomalous Force

Author: Dag Østvang
Comments: 9 pages, no figures, LaTeX

     It is shown how the apparently anomalous force acting on the Pioneer
     10/11, Galileo and Ulysess spacecraft can be naturally explained as
     resulting from treating comoving coordinates as static ones.
     Specifically the anomalous acceleration arises because of the
     mismodeling of null paths.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 18 08:23:12 1999
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Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] the perihelion of Nibiru
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>On Sun, 17 Oct 1999 23:54:00 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote:
>
>>Robin -
>for or against Nibiru lying in the plain of the ecliptic. BTW the closer

>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

What is Nibiru?


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 18 09:24:29 1999
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Mitchell Jones wrote:

> 
> ***{As a matter of interest, Tom vanFlandern was on Art Bell the other
> night, discussing the theory that Mars was originally a moon of a larger
> planet which--get this--"exploded," leaving the asteroid belt. I crawled
> into the sack before he supplied much detail, but my guess is that he is
> disturbed by the same observations that led to the Nibiru theory. (But why
> would a planet explode? Does the U235 in the core settle to the center,
> forming a critical mass, as in the Japanese nuclear accident? Does anyone
> know what he posits as the cause of a planet exploding?) --MJ}***
>

I don't know what Van Flandern's argument is, but as far as causing a
planet to explode,
Nikola Tesla once claimed that, utilizing the principles of resonance,
he could split the earth in two, should he so desire. I remember seeing
a photocopy of some Gernsback publication of the late 20's or early 30's
with Tesla's image on the cover, with the earth in the background
spewing fiery debris from a huge fissure girdling the entire globe. I
sometimes wonder if Tesla were not the model for the Frankenstein
Scientist character of the movie of this period, what with the Jacob's
ladders and kites launched into electrical storms et al. 

Anyway this claim is substantiated, by accounts of Tesla's experiment
with a "small mechanical compressed air driven vibrator" which he
attached to a pillar of his NYC
apartment building. This account is in Margaret Cheney's book. The story
goes 
that Tesla activated this device then went back up to his apartment for
some light reading. When after a short while, a small earthquake
attracted the attention of the police toward Tesla's apartment bldg,
they broke in to find Tesla smashing his device with a sledgehammer.

Last night Vince Cockeram, who lives in nearby Las Vegas (150 mi)
responded to my post about a wide band hum from my AM radio that I
picked up immediately after the Mojave earthquake a few nights ago. He
suggested that I check my filter caps in the power supply. After I sent
my rejoinder to that off to Vortex-l I turned off the computer and
switched the AM reciever on to see if the hum was still there. It had
vanished.

This hum was not like the ordinary monotonic buzz you hear when you have
poor filtering of your rectifier outputs, however. There were definite
modulations in the  60 hz tone ranging from about .3 cps to maybe .05
cps, which whould change in character as you scanned across the dial.
They were not information carrying transmissions, either, because once
you parked the dial the same characteristic modulation would repeat over
and over, like the idling of an automobile engine. 

The Mojave earthquake occurred about two hours AFTER I posted "Secrets
of the Mojave" part 2 and 3 to the vortexB listserver. Part 1 didn't
make it b4 the event due to a typo on I made in the address line.     

And now the idea of "Nebiru" coming along just in time to raise further
expectations that this planet is scheduled for a rendezvous w/
disaster...  

Are all these things a big COINCIDENCE????!!!!

Who knows.

Anyway, attached is my latest rendering of the old gent himself.
Tesla2.gif

Cheers,

Jim Ostrowski

--------------6B0074AE17FA
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 18 11:55:27 1999
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thomas Malloy wrote:
 
> What is Nibiru?

Nibiru is a the 12th planet allegedly discussed in Sumerian texts
(the Moon and Sun were counted as planets also) as written in a
book by Zacharia Sitchen called, "The 12th Planet".  See:

http://www.nor.com.au/users/stingray/nibiru.htm

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 18 12:58:40 1999
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I received the ACS tapes today from Kawasaki. The audio and video quality
is outstanding. The lecture by Fleischman was over my head, but the
lectures by Storms and McKubre were enjoyable though short. I look forward
to seeing the other tapes. Thanks again, Akira!

- Jed

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John -


>  What is a wabe?


Part of a fractured translation to english. Presumably it was supposed to be
"wave".

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 18 14:24:43 1999
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	Cool!

	I like it!  

	"and the fields of wheat wabing in the bally velow!

On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> John -
> 
> 
> >  What is a wabe?
> 
> 
> Part of a fractured translation to english. Presumably it was supposed to be
> "wave".
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 18 16:56:05 1999
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] the perihelion of Nibiru
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:50:41 +1000
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On Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:26:58 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
[snip]
>***{It can if we treat the asteroid belt as if it lies in the ecliptic
>(i.e., in the plane of Earth's orbit)--which, practically speaking, it
>does. Assume the entire orbit of Nibiru lies in the ecliptic, with its
>perihelion (nearest point to the sun) at the asteroid belt. Draw a line
>connecting the perihelion to the sun. That line, when extended to the
>aphelion (farthest point from the sun) will be the long axis of the orbit
>(the major axis), which will also lie in the ecliptic. But if we now rotate
>the plane of Nibiru's orbit about its major axis, we find that there exists
>an infinite number of possible orientations of that plane, which are *not*
>entirely in the ecliptic. --Mitchell Jones}***

You are correct. I hadn't considered this. In fact it may even provide
for a closer approach between the planets than the model I proposed,
provided that the semi-minor axis of Nibiru's orbit is very small.
[snip]

>***{I am not sure where you obtained the 3600 year period for Nibiru's
>oribt, but unless there are additional assumptions not stated in your post,
>there is no necessity that it pass through the asteroid belt twice. The
>major axis of its orbit can lie in the ecliptic with a perihelion in the
>asteroid belt, even if the aphelion is not in the asteroid belt. --MJ}***

This seems to be a restatement of your position above, though I don't
think there was ever any question of the aphelion being in the asteroid
belt.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 18 17:51:22 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment
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Fred,

Thanks for the clarification about the dissociation rate.

Also for the information that the reaction H2 + ( K+) --->    KH +   +   (H) 
would be energetically favorable.  Does this mean that using lots of ionized 
K would increase the amount of neutral atomic H in the system?

You also mentioned that there are negative ion sources that use H +  K  --->  
H-  +    K+.  What's a negative ion source?  And since this reaction uses up 
neutral atomic H, I wonder what the balance here would be as far as the total 
amount of neutral atomic H in the system is concerned.

Do you have any estimate of how efficient a titanium-screen dissociator would 
be?

Tom Stolper

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From: bpaddock csonline.net (Bob Paddock)
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>>Nibiru or "the planet of crossing" is supposed by Sitchin and every

"When Time Began", "Genesis Revisited", "The Lost Realms",
"The Stairway to Heaven", "The 12th Planet", "The Wars of
Gods and Men".  I think there are at least three more that
Stichin has written after those I list there. 
http://www.bearco.com , is their publisher, but their link
seems to be down every time I try it.

>***{I am not sure where you obtained the 3600 year period for Nibiru's
>oribt, but unless there are additional assumptions not stated in your post,

The epic, not sure that is the right word, for Nibiru, seem
to vary from 1800, 3600, or 12,000 years at one time or
other in the text Sitchin cites.  3600 comes up the most
often.

>***{As a matter of interest, Tom vanFlandern was on Art Bell the other
>night, discussing the theory that Mars was originally a moon of a larger
>planet which--get this--"exploded," leaving the asteroid
>belt.

You might want to look up "Worlds in Collision" by Immanuel
Velikovsky.  'They' could not find fault with his theory, so
they attacked him personally.  Which lead to "Stargazers &
Gravediggers: Memoirs to Worlds in Collision" by Immanuel
Velikovsky.  ISBN 0-688-01545-X

A summery can be found in "How To Build A Flying Saucer and
Other Proposals In Speculative Engineering" by T.B.
Pawlicki.  Printice-Hall Publishing.  ISBN 0-13-402461-3
152 pages vs ~400 pages * 2.

Pawlicki's premise of the book as a whole is that "Reality"
it self is build out of standing waves, to put it in one
swooping over-simplification.  [He asks a question: If your
navigator gets paid by the hour, what is his pay scale in
Hyperspace, a place where time does not exist? :-) ]

>disturbed by the same observations that led to the Nibiru theory. (But why
>would a planet explode?

Per Velikovsky, and even Plato (tho I can't site the
reference, lost it years ago), the orbits of the planets as
we know them was very different in the past.

In a few word summary:  Earth should be in the orbit of
Venus, Mars would be where Earth is today, Timar (sp?) was
the planet that is now the Asotoride belt, etc...

>>Nibiru or "the planet of crossing"
entered the Solar System, and royally screwed it in to
what we know today.  A case of Demolition Derby
on a Solar System size scale.

Velikovsky explains just about every anomaly with out ever
invoking Sitchin.  "Why does Uranus roll like a bowling ball
on its axis?" as one example.

Sitchin does invoke Velikovsky, but is more based on the
VERY OLD texts, like the Seminarian "Epic of Creation". The
Book of Genius seems to be the last quarter or so of EofC.


-- 
For information on any of the following check out my WEB site at:
                   http://www.biogate.com/bpaddock/
Chemical Free Air Conditioning/No CFC's, Chronic Pain Relief, Echofone,
Electromedicine, Electronics, Explore!, Free Energy, Full Disclosure,
KeelyNet, Matric Limited, Neurophone, Oil City PA, Philadelphia Experiment.
                         http://www.uCOS-II.com

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----- Original Message -----
From: <Tstolper aol.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment

Tom Stolper wrote:


> Fred,
>
> Thanks for the clarification about the dissociation rate.

You're wecome. However, other data states that H2 <---> 2  H (4.526 ev)
is only 0.08% at 2,000 Kelvin,  7.8% at 3,000 Kelvin, 62.2% at 4,000 Kelvin.
and 95.5% at 5,000 Kelvin.  IOW, going by this, at 1,000 Kelvin the
dissociation of H2 is virtually nil. This is why Mills used hot Tungsten in
his early experiments and probably got more H atoms from the H2O
"water cycle" from the KNOx that he had in the system.
>
> Also for the information that the reaction H2 + ( K+) --->    KH +   +
(H)
> would be energetically favorable.  Does this mean that using lots of
ionized
> K would increase the amount of neutral atomic H in the system?

It looks that way.
>
> You also mentioned that there are negative ion sources that use H +
K  --->
> H-  +    K+.  What's a negative ion source?

Negative ion sources are used to create negative ions for particle
accelerators
so that when the  H- gets up to speed, you pull off the electron and end up
with a high-speed neutral  H beam that is unaffected by electric or magnetic
fields.
Very well adapted for Star Wars stuff.  :-)

>And since this reaction uses up
> neutral atomic H, I wonder what the balance here would be as far as the
total
> amount of neutral atomic H in the system is concerned.

It's one way to get from H2 to (KH+) + H without direct dissociation of H2.
>
> Do you have any estimate of how efficient a titanium-screen dissociator
would
> be?
Not off-hand, but, Titanium wants to form ~TiH2  which at the right
temperature:

TiH2 <-->    TiH + H  or such. I think the Potassium does it just as well.

Regards,      Frederick
>
> Tom Stolper
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 18 20:46:09 1999
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In a message dated 10/18/99 6:51:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
fjsparber earthlink.net writes:

>  ..........other data states that H2 <---> 2  H (4.526 ev)
>  is only 0.08% at 2,000 Kelvin,  7.8% at 3,000 Kelvin, 
>  62.2% at 4,000 Kelvin and 95.5% at 5,000 Kelvin.  
>  IOW, going by this, at 1,000 Kelvin the dissociation of H2 
>  is virtually nil. This is why Mills used hot Tungsten in
>  his early experiments and probably got more H atoms 
>  from the H2O "water cycle" from the KNOx that he had in the system.

     So the suns corona would have pretty close to 100% H ?
     And this is why he says the corona is MUCH hotter than the 
     suns surface even though it's farther away from the "stove".

<<snip>>

   So Fred, looks like all I need is a container to hold H2 at 
5000º K  (4726.85º C) !

***Speculation Alert*** 
Magnetic confinement comes to mind but for the problem
of grabbing hold of the neutral H atoms and keeping them
away from the walls of the container...bummer. 

I envision a continuos pinch plasma arc, oh, around a foot long 
and ¼ inch diameter inside a container designed to efficiently
transfer the heat to a sink at the proper rate (to avoid overcooling).
Container filled with H2 only at some positive atmospheric pressure.
The arc should get the H up to a temperature where it will 
begin auto catalysis (per Mills). Mebby you need a little K in there
to get the ball rolling?
A foot long discharge in a positive H2 pressure?....now  we are 
talking some really serious high voltage.
Comes to mind there will be a large problem cooling the electrodes
in such a setup...even on the small scale I am trying.

***Speculation Alert Off***
Probably Mills has come up against this also and may be why he 
is using microwave excitation.  I guess you would want to tune the 
microwave oscillator to the resonant H frequency, whatever that is.

>  Regards,      Frederick

Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas

This post is also a test of getting degree  ( º )  and the ( ¼ )  symbols
to print correctly.
Vince ±

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----- Original Message -----
From: <VCockeram aol.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <VCockeram aol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment

Vince wrote:

Snip
>
>    So Fred, looks like all I need is a container to hold H2 at
> 5000º K  (4726.85º C) !

You already have one, Vince, a low pressure (millitorr) discharge
can get up to 5,000 K (~ 0.5 ev)no sweat.

It's all a matter of the Number of atoms/molecules (pressure)bouncing around
at 1/2*mv^2  = kT, ie., Heat Content.You can safely stick your hand in
an oven (momentarily)at 2,000 K, just don't touch anything that has lots of
atoms/molecules wrt the air molecules, or stay long enough for an infrared
burn.
>
>
> I envision a continuos pinch plasma arc, oh, around a foot long
> and ¼ inch diameter inside a container designed to efficiently
> transfer the heat to a sink at the proper rate (to avoid overcooling).

Planning on building a Tokamak, Vince?  500 ev *11,600 Deg K/ev
= 5,800,000 Deg Kelvin!

Your experiment at high volts low amps or vice-versa is just fine.
Stay The Course>  :-)

Regards,   Frederick
>
>
> Regards,
> Vince Cockeram
> Las Vegas
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 19 03:45:56 1999
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Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment
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Vince,

A 40 watt 120 vac, 4 foot, T-12 fluorescent light bulb has millitorr
pressures
of  mercury and argon, and plasma temperatures that approach 55,000 deg K.

Then there is the Ne-2 .  :-)

The Solar Corona is at Nanotorr Pressures and gets up to Billions of Deg K.

The Abtox  0.1 to 10 torr "Cold Plasma" sterilizers have ions/electrons
bouncing
around at temperatures of > 5,000 deg K ( ~0.5 ev), yet keep the medical
plastics below
120 deg F.

Regards,    Frederick




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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 19 06:02:56 1999
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John wrote:

  What is a wabe?

 Rick Monteverde wrote:

Part of a fractured translation to english.
Presumably it was supposed to be "wave".

Rick Monteverde, Honolulu, HI

Jack writes:

How about

"Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the WABE: ..."

JABBERWOCKY

from Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There, 1872,
by Lewis Carroll

Jack Smith


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 19 06:47:35 1999
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From: ICCF8 <iccf8 frascati.enea.it>

Dear Colleague,

The ICCF8 Web-page has been updated.

Please take note of the deadlines.

Urgent hotel reservation is strongly recommended, as a great touristic 
affluence is foreseen for the 2000 year in Italy.

We have tried to do our best to provide all useful information to attend 
the Conference, but if something has been neglected, please don't hesitate 
to contact our Secretariat to ask further information or notice possible 
forgiveness in the Web-page.

Looking forward to see you in Lerici,


                                       Antonella De Ninno



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 19 06:49:49 1999
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Not quite!
compare: Gyro looks like gravitational wabe
with: Gyre and gimble in the wabe
gyre and gimble, sounds like some sort of a gyro right? and the other reads gyro
blah blah... wabe

It looks as though people are using the nonsense words from that ol' poem.

The Jabberwocky
by :Lewis Carroll
http://ruthannzaroff.com/wonderland/jabberwocky.htm

  'Twas brillig and the slithy toves
  Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
  All mimsy were the borogoves,
  And the mome raths outgrabe.

  "Beware the Jabberwock; my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
  Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!"

  He took his vorpal sword in hand:
  Long time the manxome foe he sought-
  So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
  And stood awhile in thought.

  And as in uffish thought he stood,
  The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
  Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
  And burbled as it came!

  One, two! One, two! And through and through
  The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
  He left it dead, and with its head
  He went galumphing back.

  "And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
  Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
  O Frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!"
  He chortled in his joy.

  'Twas brillig and the slithy toves
  Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
  All mimsy were the borogoves,
  And the mome raths outgrabe.

http://web-hou.iapc.net/~chuckh/Humor/JABBERW.HTM

John Schnurer wrote:

>         Cool!
>
>         I like it!
>
>         "and the fields of wheat wabing in the bally velow!
>
> On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Rick Monteverde wrote:
>
> > John -
> >
> >
> > >  What is a wabe?
> >
> >
> > Part of a fractured translation to english. Presumably it was supposed to be
> > "wave".
> >
> > - Rick Monteverde
> > Honolulu, HI
> >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 19 06:51:54 1999
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The web page is:

http://www.frascati.enea.it/iccf8/

- JR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 19 06:58:29 1999
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hamdi ucar wrote:
> 
> John Schnurer wrote:
> >
> >
> >         Q: Do you think I have publicly demonstrated an interest in
> > Gravity Modification research?
> >
> Publicly... depends. You had not submitted a paper on a scientific publication.
[snip]

Apologize deeply, for that I forgot your paper. "Possible quantum gravity effects in a charged Bose condensate under variable e.m. field", Authors: G. Modanese, J. Schnurer
Report-no: UTF-391/96

Regards,
hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 19 07:03:27 1999
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http://rylibweb.man.ac.uk/data1/sy/jch/alwords/als121.htm

"And what's to 'gyre'' and to 'gimble'?"

"To 'gyre' is to go round and round like a gyroscope. To 'gimble' is to make holes
like a gimlet.'

"And 'the wabe' is a grass plot round a sundial, I suppose?" said Alice, surprised
at her own ingenuity.

"Of course it is. It's called 'wabe,' you know, because it goes a long way before
it, and a long way behind it - "

"And a long way beyond it on each side," Alice added.

"Exactly so."

John Berry wrote:

> Not quite!
> compare: Gyro looks like gravitational wabe
> with: Gyre and gimble in the wabe
> gyre and gimble, sounds like some sort of a gyro right? and the other reads gyro
> blah blah... wabe
>
> It looks as though people are using the nonsense words from that ol' poem.
>
> The Jabberwocky
> by :Lewis Carroll
> http://ruthannzaroff.com/wonderland/jabberwocky.htm
>
>   'Twas brillig and the slithy toves
>   Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
>   All mimsy were the borogoves,
>   And the mome raths outgrabe.
>
>   "Beware the Jabberwock; my son!
>   The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
>   Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
>   The frumious Bandersnatch!"
>
>   He took his vorpal sword in hand:
>   Long time the manxome foe he sought-
>   So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
>   And stood awhile in thought.
>
>   And as in uffish thought he stood,
>   The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
>   Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
>   And burbled as it came!
>
>   One, two! One, two! And through and through
>   The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
>   He left it dead, and with its head
>   He went galumphing back.
>
>   "And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
>   Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
>   O Frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!"
>   He chortled in his joy.
>
>   'Twas brillig and the slithy toves
>   Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
>   All mimsy were the borogoves,
>   And the mome raths outgrabe.
>
> http://web-hou.iapc.net/~chuckh/Humor/JABBERW.HTM
>
> John Schnurer wrote:
>
> >         Cool!
> >
> >         I like it!
> >
> >         "and the fields of wheat wabing in the bally velow!
> >
> > On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Rick Monteverde wrote:
> >
> > > John -
> > >
> > >
> > > >  What is a wabe?
> > >
> > >
> > > Part of a fractured translation to english. Presumably it was supposed to be
> > > "wave".
> > >
> > > - Rick Monteverde
> > > Honolulu, HI
> > >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 19 13:08:38 1999
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Subject: Re: Stare at THIS metric!
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John -

I noticed this similarity too, and even thought that perhaps if I smoked
lots of marijuana it might seem to have much more significance than it
really does. It's just a poor translation or typo! Yeah I know, "there are
no coincindences", but this is just mangled english. Probably. Or maybe the
Japanese found out that L.C. was hinting at Mach's principle when he wrote
of the wabe: "Of course it is. It's called 'wabe,' you know, because it goes
a long way before it, and a long way behind it - "

I would have thought that there'd be some interest or discussion on the fact
that if you have spinning wheels out on the rim of a "turntable" like they
show on their site, there appears to me to be relativistic reasons that the
wheels would become unbalanced and provide thrust. Of course normal matter
engineering would be out of the question, but what about subatomic mass?
Particle beams? And there's plenty of little bits spinning at relativistic
velocity in ordinary matter. Could the angular velocity of some of these
matter flows be oriented properly on a spinning disk to provide measurable
lift?

> Not quite!
> compare: Gyro looks like gravitational wabe
> with: Gyre and gimble in the wabe
> gyre and gimble, sounds like some sort of a gyro right? and the other reads
gyro
> blah blah... wabe
>
> It looks as though people are using the nonsense words from that ol' poem.
>
> The Jabberwocky
> by :Lewis Carroll

<snip>

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 19 14:33:33 1999
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From: Colin Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
Subject: Re: Stare at THIS metric!
In-Reply-To: <380C7937.12998405 ihug.co.nz>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.991018172632.12963C-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
 <380C7530.FF7772EE ihug.co.nz>
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At 02:59 AM 10/20/99 +1300, John wrote:
>http://rylibweb.man.ac.uk/data1/sy/jch/alwords/als121.htm
>
>"And what's to 'gyre'' and to 'gimble'?"
>
>"To 'gyre' is to go round and round like a gyroscope. To 'gimble' is to
make holes
>like a gimlet.'

I thought a gimlet was a part of our Thanksgiving turkey :-)

The original poem must have read "gyre and gimbal". A gimbal will
functionally suspend a gyroscope, for example. 
Gimbals: "a pair of rings pivoted in axes at right angles to each other so
that one is free to swint within the other."

Colin Quinney

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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 15:12:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
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Subject: Re: Wide spectrum modulated hum
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Jim
	You probably have run into the phenomenon known as skip. The
signal from SF is bouncing off the ionosphere to your location. The LA
stations are too close to you, and their skip probably shows up in New
Mexico. The upper end of the broadcast band shows this a lot. I remember
driving home late one night and listening to a station in Halifax for a
while. I live in Canoga Park.

HANK

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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:45:35 EDT
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment
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Vince,

I was unsubscribed in spring 1998, so I missed your first run of H2K 
experiments.  I didn't realize how bulky and heavy and hot the power supply 
was.  Now I understand why you're looking for another one.  Good luck in 
finding it.  I hope this doesn't mean an indefinite postponement of your 
experiments.

Hadn't thought of using a tokamak for a Mills-type experiment, but the mere 
possibility may explain why the hot fusioneers are so sure that they would 
have seen hydrinos.  Since they haven't seen them, they conclude that they 
don't exist.  I conclude that they never looked.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 19 19:19:42 1999
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 20:14:16 -0700
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> Dear Britannica Online Subscriber,
> 
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 19 19:51:37 1999
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From: VCockeram aol.com
Message-ID: <0.4e146b59.253e8761 aol.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 22:48:01 EDT
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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In a message dated 10/19/99 6:47:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
Tstolper aol.com writes:

> Vince,
>  
>  I was unsubscribed in spring 1998, so I missed your first run of H2K 
>  experiments.  I didn't realize how bulky and heavy and hot the power 
supply 
>  was.  Now I understand why you're looking for another one.  Good luck in 
>  finding it.  I hope this doesn't mean an indefinite postponement of your 
>  experiments.

  No postponement considered, it's just that I'm always wanting to try 
different power supplies.
>  
>  Hadn't thought of using a tokamak for a Mills-type experiment, but the 
mere 
>  possibility may explain why the hot fusioneers are so sure that they would 
>  have seen hydrinos.  Since they haven't seen them, they conclude that they 
>  don't exist.  I conclude that they never looked.

  Right! Why look for something that "can't" exist, because if it did,
their secure world would come tumbling down about them.
>  
>  Tom Stolper
>  
Regards,
Vince Cockeram

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 19 20:06:53 1999
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 20:02:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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VCockeram aol.com wrote:

>      Hmmm....I just thought of something....Those plasma discharge balls
> that Radio
>      Shack sells for about 30 bucks must use a high freq supply. The glass 
> globe is
>      about 5 inches in diameter and the central electrode emits streamers
> of 
> plasma
>      that make a pretty light show. The thingy uses a 12 volt wall wart
> power 
> supply
>      so it must have a HV generator built into the base.... Hmmm...      

   Those plasma balls are driven by low power (less than 1 W), spike-making
oscillator through a transformer, much like a small flyback. They run to a
few kV on the peaks, I think. The plasma is made by capacitive coupling
through the glass. The high capacitive reactance keeps the external current
extremely low, so it is safe to touch.

>       Any old used Tokamaks laying around?

   Canadian government was selling "Tokamak de Varennes," a well-made, well
equipped tokamak with 0.9 m major radius. In the end, I think they had to
sell various subsystems separately, since no one wanted the whole package. My
group bought two gyrotrons (high power microwave tubes) and ancillary
equipment, to boost the heating power in our tokamak. They are being
installed on our site now.


=====
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 19 20:19:37 1999
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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 20:16:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment
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> Hadn't thought of using a tokamak for a Mills-type experiment, but the mere
> possibility may explain why the hot fusioneers are so sure that they would 
> have seen hydrinos.  Since they haven't seen them, they conclude that they 
> don't exist.  I conclude that they never looked.
> 
> Tom Stolper

Hot fusioneers never heard of hydrinos, because Mills hasn't published in teh
mainstream. Hot fusioneers have never have looked for hydrinos, but they do a
lot of looking at their plasmas with spectroscopes of many kinds. Unexpected
and unexplained lines would have been noted, commented upon, and then made
the subject of intense further experimental and theoretical effort. That's
how science moves forward.



=====
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 19 20:36:45 1999
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Wide spectrum modulated hum
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Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ca-ois.com> wrote:

[snip]
> Instead, when I tune across the dial, I get various versions of a low
> frequency modulated hum in the range of 60 to 120 cycles. There are a
> few spots in this band that have higher frequency components, but these
> higher frequency components are barely distinguishable from noise. There
> is no variation in the duration and repetition modes of the low
> frequency modulation components that are audible when the  dial is just
> "parked" on one frequency setting, hence these are continous mode
> oscillations that do not seem to be transmitting any "new" information,
> other than the continuing exixtence of their transmission source, what
> ever _THAT_ is. 

   This sounds like broadband rf noise modulated at 60 and/or 120 Hz. I
remember some old fluorescent lights that did this. When the discharge
extinguishes, as it must 120 current zero-crossings per second, it emits a
pulse of rf. (This should be suppressed in well designed lights.) The result
is broadband rf modulated at 120 Hz. The noise did not extend perceptibly to
the FM band. There are probably other emitters around that have this same
general character.

   Try searching for the source with a directional antenna. A portable radio
with a ferrite antenna (dipole directivity pattern) might be more convenient
than your big receiver. If it is a local source, try driving around in a car
with an AM radio and seek maximum signal strength.




=====
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 19 20:44:18 1999
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <0.4e146b59.253e8761 aol.com>
Subject: Re: Manual "Cold Plasma" Tokamak
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:36:25 -0700
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Here you go, Vince

Take an old (or new) clean; 4 ft., 40 w Fluorescent Light Bulb and grasp
it about center with one hand and grab and release,or rub, with the other
hand
and watch it flash (lights off in the room of course).

Swap the argon for H2 and/or D2  and add some potassium, and you should get
Hot and Cold Fusion breakeven, while Michael Schaffer is wondering
what's going on.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 20 00:58:30 1999
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From: JNaudin509 aol.com
Message-ID: <0.2b4e4c1a.253ecfe5 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 03:57:25 EDT
Subject: The M.Meyer-Mace solid state energy converter 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Dear all,

You will find below an interesting device (not yet tested by myself):

The Michel Meyer-Mace solid state energy converter 
from the Patent # FR9110472
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This patented generator is a solid-state generator which uses the nuclear 
resonant ferromagnetic effect in a cylindrical rod of iron(56). This effect 
has been named by the inventors the "isotopic mutation effect".
They use a common iron rod (isotopic number 56) with 3 simple coils wound 
around it.
This rod is placed between a U shaped core (soft iron) for closing the 
magnetic circuit and thus reducing the magnetic losses (see the diagram below 
(use the  courier 10 fonts)). 

      #1   #2   #3
XX:===HH===HH===HH===:XX     #1: Ind.coil (0.5 tesla)permanent B-field
XX:===HH===HH===HH===:XX     #2: Excit.coil (21Mhz sine wave at 10e-4 tesla)
XX                    XX     #3: Output coil
XX                    XX     :===:
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX     :===: the iron(56)cylindrical rod
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX     <----  Soft iron (U shaped)

The inventors claim that if we introduce 105 eV to the iron (isotope 56), its 
change to the iron isotope 54. The energy generated by this nuclear reaction 
inside the iron rod will produce an energy gain of 20,000 eV. The energy 
required for generating the isotopic mutation  is produced by a nuclear 
magnetic resonance effect. The parametric excitation is obtained by the coil 
#2 acting as the pump.
The energy output is collected by the coil #3 which is able to produce 
110-220-380V at 400Hz.
The iron rod is used as the main source of energy by isotopic mutation 
effect, thus, this will provide a simple and cheap source of energy for a 
long time.
The inventors claim that this device can be used for building self-powered 
elecrical power supplies.

Translated from the patent FR9110472 "Activateur pour mutation isotopique" by 
Jean-Louis Naudin.

Others reference documents : 
- Patent FR7421213 "Générateur électrique autonome" by Michel Meyer
- Sciences et vie "Une centrale électrique chez soi" by Renaud de la Taille 

Note from JL Naudin : This remind me the principle used in the Sweet device, 
the Inductor coil can also be replaced by two simple magnets and the iron rod 
by a simple iron plate between them. 
See the TEP v8.0 device at : http://members.aol.com/overunity4/html/tep80.htm
and also "Nothing is something" by Floyd A.Sweet 
http://members.aol.com/overunity4/nothing/nothing.htm

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Best Regards
Jean-Louis Naudin
Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com
Overunity Web site: http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/index.htm
eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/

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y

	Hum...

	This noise is typical of at least two or three things... any of
which is common to the other by to fact;  arcing, heavy draw and or loss..

	a]ac ARC FURNACES
	B[ OLD, NON REGULATED non RF	60 cps welder [s]
	c]  ""        " " "              heat treater

	

On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Michael Schaffer wrote:

> Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ca-ois.com> wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> > Instead, when I tune across the dial, I get various versions of a low
> > frequency modulated hum in the range of 60 to 120 cycles. There are a
> > few spots in this band that have higher frequency components, but these
> > higher frequency components are barely distinguishable from noise. There
> > is no variation in the duration and repetition modes of the low
> > frequency modulation components that are audible when the  dial is just
> > "parked" on one frequency setting, hence these are continous mode
> > oscillations that do not seem to be transmitting any "new" information,
> > other than the continuing exixtence of their transmission source, what
> > ever _THAT_ is. 
> 
>    This sounds like broadband rf noise modulated at 60 and/or 120 Hz. I
> remember some old fluorescent lights that did this. When the discharge
> extinguishes, as it must 120 current zero-crossings per second, it emits a
> pulse of rf. (This should be suppressed in well designed lights.) The result
> is broadband rf modulated at 120 Hz. The noise did not extend perceptibly to
> the FM band. There are probably other emitters around that have this same
> general character.
> 
>    Try searching for the source with a directional antenna. A portable radio
> with a ferrite antenna (dipole directivity pattern) might be more convenient
> than your big receiver. If it is a local source, try driving around in a car
> with an AM radio and seek maximum signal strength.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> =====
> Michael J. Schaffer
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 20 06:47:03 1999
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>Dear all,
>
>You will find below an interesting device (not yet tested by myself):
>
>The Michel Meyer-Mace solid state energy converter
>from the Patent # FR9110472
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>This patented generator is a solid-state generator which uses the nuclear
>resonant ferromagnetic effect in a cylindrical rod of iron(56). This effect
>has been named by the inventors the "isotopic mutation effect".
>They use a common iron rod (isotopic number 56) with 3 simple coils wound
>around it.
>This rod is placed between a U shaped core (soft iron) for closing the
>magnetic circuit and thus reducing the magnetic losses (see the diagram below
>(use the  courier 10 fonts)).
>
>...............#1.......#2.......#3
>XX....:===HH===HH===HH===:.....XX....#1: Ind.coil (0.5 tesla)permanent B-field
>XX....:===HH===HH===HH===:.....XX... #2: Excit.coil (21Mhz sine wave at
>10e-4 tesla)
>XX.............................................XX....#3: Output coil
>XX.............................................XX....:===:
>XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX....:===: the iron(56)cylindrical rod
>XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.....<----  Soft iron (U shaped)

***{My experience with ASCII art has been that it gets garbled during
transmission. The reason this happens is that data compression algorithms
frequently can't handle multiple spaces for some unknown reason. Thus when
you use, for example, ten spaces in a line of ASCII art, it may come out on
the receiving end as only one space--which, naturally, totally trashes out
the picture you were intending to convey. What I have found is that, by
using periods instead of spaces, the art usually comes through correctly,
though I don't know why. (You would think that a program that could count
periods would also be able to count spaces! :-) In the above, I have
inserted periods where I am guessing that your spaces were originally.
Please verify that these guesses are correct, if they are correct. Thanks
in advance. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>The inventors claim that if we introduce 105 eV to the iron (isotope 56), its
>change to the iron isotope 54. The energy generated by this nuclear reaction
>inside the iron rod will produce an energy gain of 20,000 eV. The energy
>required for generating the isotopic mutation  is produced by a nuclear
>magnetic resonance effect. The parametric excitation is obtained by the coil
>#2 acting as the pump.
>The energy output is collected by the coil #3 which is able to produce
>110-220-380V at 400Hz.
>The iron rod is used as the main source of energy by isotopic mutation
>effect, thus, this will provide a simple and cheap source of energy for a
>long time.
>The inventors claim that this device can be used for building self-powered
>elecrical power supplies.
>
>Translated from the patent FR9110472 "Activateur pour mutation isotopique" by
>Jean-Louis Naudin.
>
>Others reference documents :
>- Patent FR7421213 "GÈnÈrateur Èlectrique autonome" by Michel Meyer
>- Sciences et vie "Une centrale Èlectrique chez soi" by Renaud de la Taille
>
>Note from JL Naudin : This remind me the principle used in the Sweet device,
>the Inductor coil can also be replaced by two simple magnets and the iron rod
>by a simple iron plate between them.
>See the TEP v8.0 device at : http://members.aol.com/overunity4/html/tep80.htm
>and also "Nothing is something" by Floyd A.Sweet
>http://members.aol.com/overunity4/nothing/nothing.htm
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Best Regards
>Jean-Louis Naudin
>Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com
>Overunity Web site: http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/index.htm
>eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 20 07:33:25 1999
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From: JNaudin509 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:31:12 EDT
Subject: Re: The M.Meyer-Mace solid state energy converter
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Dans un courrier daté du 20/10/99 15:44:01é), mjones jump.net a écrit :

> ***{My experience with ASCII art has been that it gets garbled during
>  transmission. The reason this happens is that data compression algorithms
>  frequently can't handle multiple spaces for some unknown reason.

Hi Mitchell and All,

Sorry for this garble diagram, I am not a good Ascii graphics designer, I 
prefer the 3D color graphic rendering  :-)

So, you may find the full patents with diagrams and the documents at : 
http://www.geocities.com/alcor17/OverUnit/patents/

I hope this will be better...

Best Regards,

Jean-Louis

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 20 08:35:46 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <VCockeram aol.com>
Subject: Re: Electrodeless Discharge "Cold Plasma" Hydrino Power Converter
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 09:29:22 -0700
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Indications are (*) that, a "Cold Plasma" set up in a fluorescent tube
charged
with H2, K, and Hg, at millitorr pressures will produce enough fluorescence
to power photoelectric (Solar)cells deposited on the exterior surface of
the tube.

IOW, the Vacuum EUV from Hydrino formation will cause a laser effect
in the tenuous gas which will excite the internal phosphor of the bulb.
The photocells will convert the light to electrical energy, some of which
will power the electrodeless discharge excitation, with the rest providing
output power and heat.

The "Soda" glass of the bulb should be fairly tolerant of the K.

Can you beat that with a Hot Fusion Tokamak?    :-)

(*)  My Calculations.  :-)

Regards,      Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 20 08:47:43 1999
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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 04:40:58 +1300
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The M.Meyer-Mace solid state energy converter
References: <v04011700b433625d9350 [207.8.127.144]>
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I think what's happening is simply the use of a variable width font.
JLN ASCII are comes out just fine if I use fixed width to view it, so I don't think
his ASCII art was messed up at all.

Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >Dear all,
> >
> >You will find below an interesting device (not yet tested by myself):
> >
> >The Michel Meyer-Mace solid state energy converter
> >from the Patent # FR9110472
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >This patented generator is a solid-state generator which uses the nuclear
> >resonant ferromagnetic effect in a cylindrical rod of iron(56). This effect
> >has been named by the inventors the "isotopic mutation effect".
> >They use a common iron rod (isotopic number 56) with 3 simple coils wound
> >around it.
> >This rod is placed between a U shaped core (soft iron) for closing the
> >magnetic circuit and thus reducing the magnetic losses (see the diagram below
> >(use the  courier 10 fonts)).
> >
> >...............#1.......#2.......#3
> >XX....:===HH===HH===HH===:.....XX....#1: Ind.coil (0.5 tesla)permanent B-field
> >XX....:===HH===HH===HH===:.....XX... #2: Excit.coil (21Mhz sine wave at
> >10e-4 tesla)
> >XX.............................................XX....#3: Output coil
> >XX.............................................XX....:===:
> >XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX....:===: the iron(56)cylindrical rod
> >XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.....<----  Soft iron (U shaped)
>
> ***{My experience with ASCII art has been that it gets garbled during
> transmission. The reason this happens is that data compression algorithms
> frequently can't handle multiple spaces for some unknown reason. Thus when
> you use, for example, ten spaces in a line of ASCII art, it may come out on
> the receiving end as only one space--which, naturally, totally trashes out
> the picture you were intending to convey. What I have found is that, by
> using periods instead of spaces, the art usually comes through correctly,
> though I don't know why. (You would think that a program that could count
> periods would also be able to count spaces! :-) In the above, I have
> inserted periods where I am guessing that your spaces were originally.
> Please verify that these guesses are correct, if they are correct. Thanks
> in advance. --Mitchell Jones}***
>
> >
> >The inventors claim that if we introduce 105 eV to the iron (isotope 56), its
> >change to the iron isotope 54. The energy generated by this nuclear reaction
> >inside the iron rod will produce an energy gain of 20,000 eV. The energy
> >required for generating the isotopic mutation  is produced by a nuclear
> >magnetic resonance effect. The parametric excitation is obtained by the coil
> >#2 acting as the pump.
> >The energy output is collected by the coil #3 which is able to produce
> >110-220-380V at 400Hz.
> >The iron rod is used as the main source of energy by isotopic mutation
> >effect, thus, this will provide a simple and cheap source of energy for a
> >long time.
> >The inventors claim that this device can be used for building self-powered
> >elecrical power supplies.
> >
> >Translated from the patent FR9110472 "Activateur pour mutation isotopique" by
> >Jean-Louis Naudin.
> >
> >Others reference documents :
> >- Patent FR7421213 "GÈnÈrateur Èlectrique autonome" by Michel Meyer
> >- Sciences et vie "Une centrale Èlectrique chez soi" by Renaud de la Taille
> >
> >Note from JL Naudin : This remind me the principle used in the Sweet device,
> >the Inductor coil can also be replaced by two simple magnets and the iron rod
> >by a simple iron plate between them.
> >See the TEP v8.0 device at : http://members.aol.com/overunity4/html/tep80.htm
> >and also "Nothing is something" by Floyd A.Sweet
> >http://members.aol.com/overunity4/nothing/nothing.htm
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Best Regards
> >Jean-Louis Naudin
> >Email: Jnaudin509 aol.com
> >Overunity Web site: http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/index.htm
> >eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 20 09:56:51 1999
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Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 09:50:42 -0700
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ca-ois.com>
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Michael Schaffer wrote:
> 
 
> [snip]
    
>    Try searching for the source with a directional antenna. A portable radio
> with a ferrite antenna (dipole directivity pattern) might be more convenient
> than your big receiver. If it is a local source, try driving around in a car
> with an AM radio and seek maximum signal strength.

The broadband interference, whatever it was, vanished at some time after
I encountered it (immediately after the Mojave earthquake) and
approximately 36 hours later, when I turned on the AM radio again to see
if it (the interference) was still there. 

It turns out the earthquake epicenter is located only about 36 mi east
from my location, at a spot called Hector where there supposedly an 
abandoned mine dating back to the 1890's or so. 

Anyway, If I encounter the phenomena again, I will do as you suggest,
right after I get finished taking things down from shelves and otherwise
securing other objects around my place located in precipitous
situations. 

Jim Ostrowski 

 
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 20 10:05:07 1999
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Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:44:47 -0400
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Innovation paper
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  Vorts and colleagues:

  There has been a LOT of talk here about 'inventor's
disease' the notion of which I mostly disagree.  

  IMO, the hurdles of innovation are more complex.
Some of the issues and solutions were handled discussed
several years ago at MIT in the Symposium 
on Innovation and Innovation Centers, May 17-19, 1978.

 The Innovation Center was started there by Dr. Yao Tzu Li who
was Charles Stark Draper's thesis advisor and the inventor
of (among many other things) the small helicopter rotor
which essentially facilitates moving the larger one below it.
My invited paper was entitled "TWO MILLION YEARS OF INNOVATION".
The paper was in the volume MIT Proceedings of the 
Symposium on Innovation and Innovation Centers, May 17-19, 1978.


 Because of my interests in innovation, in technology, and in
the problems which inventors face, and my disagreement with the
attempts to through the "problem" onto the inventor (which appears
to be a new odious thing), I have reprinted my comments 
on innovation from the lecture into a pdf file, and will send 
it to anyone interested. 


    The paper BTW is undergoing revision, and update
for submission.  It is more than 20 years later, and 
although the matters and issues remain unchanged,
the whole concept has become more interesting based upon 
what happened to cold fusion.  

  If anyone wants a copy, please simply send me private 
email please [subject: 2 MILLION]  to keep the S/N here 
high. Thoughts on these issues are of course welcome.
  
  Best wishes.

    Dr. Mitchell Swartz

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 20 10:14:48 1999
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Subject: Re: The M.Meyer-Mace solid state energy converter
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>Dans un courrier datÈ du 20/10/99 15:44:01È), mjones jump.net a Ècrit :
>
>> ***{My experience with ASCII art has been that it gets garbled during
>>  transmission. The reason this happens is that data compression algorithms
>>  frequently can't handle multiple spaces for some unknown reason.
>
>Hi Mitchell and All,
>
>Sorry for this garble diagram, I am not a good Ascii graphics designer

***{I think your graphic was fine. The problem arose because it was altered
during transmission. Here is the version that I received:

      #1   #2   #3
XX:===HH===HH===HH===:XX     #1: Ind.coil (0.5 tesla)permanent B-field
XX:===HH===HH===HH===:XX     #2: Excit.coil (21Mhz sine wave at 10e-4 tesla)
XX                    XX     #3: Output coil
XX                    XX     :===:
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX     :===: the iron(56)cylindrical rod
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX     <----  Soft iron (U shaped)

As you can see, many important spaces were deleted during the transmission
process. This is an internet problem which has been around for literally
*years*. You would think the powers-that-be would have solved this by now,
but they haven't.

--Mitchell Jones}***

, I
>prefer the 3D color graphic rendering  :-)
>
>So, you may find the full patents with diagrams and the documents at :
>http://www.geocities.com/alcor17/OverUnit/patents/
>
>I hope this will be better...
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Jean-Louis

***{Thanks. I checked out the above URL, and found a long list of clickable
jpg files. Not knowing which ones contained the diagrams I was looking for,
I looked at all of them. Most were just French text, but the following ones
contained diagrams: BR91-01.jpg, BR91-06.jpg, and SV03.jpg. Based on what I
saw there, I came up with essentially the same diagram that I inferred
earlier by inserting periods in the version that I received from you.

Let a series of X's--e.g., XXXXXXXXXX--represent an iron bar. Let C1, C2,
and C3 represent coils of 6 turns each wound around such a bar--e.g.,
XC1XC2XC3X. Let periods represent spaces. Result:

X...................X
XXC1XC2XC3XX
X...................X
X...................X
XXXXXXXXXX

Based on your writeup, C1 receives a steady DC current sufficient to
produce a flux density of .5 tesla, while C2 receives a 21 MHz sinewave
sufficient to produce a flux density of 1 gauss. Result: C3 yields an
average of 220 volts at 400 Hz. C3 thus functions like the secondary of a
bizarre transformer, and is alleged to produce more power out than the
power input to C1 and C2 combined.

Unfortunately, from the information given, I see no way to verify such a
claim. Since B = pNI/L and L is unknown, I see no way to calculate I for
either C1 or C2. Hence the input power is unknown. Likewise, since the
current draw on C3 when it is at 220 volts is unknown, the output power
cannot be calculated, either. Thus I do not see, at present, a calculation
which implies that this device is "over unity." If the additional
information that is needed is contained in the French text, I guess I am
out of luck, since I have very little familiarity with that language, and
would have to look up virtually every word in a dictionary were I to
attempt a translation. While that might be a useful educational exercise, I
don't have the time to do it right now.

Please feel free to point out any errors in the above, or to fill in any
missing information, if you have time to do so. Also, if you have a theory
which implies that such a device ought to be "over unity," I would be
interested in that as well.

By the way, since the device was apparently patented in 1974, how has it
been suppressed? Has it been "hiding in plain sight," in the patent
archives of France, during the ensuing 25 years? If so, how could that be?
What stopped the inventor from building a self-sustaining generator, and
using it to attract vast attention worldwide, including all the capital he
needed to go into mass production? Was he, for example, murdered as soon as
the patent was issued?

Please do not take the above as sarcasm. These are serious questions that
need to be answered.

--Mitchell Jones}***


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 20 10:30:14 1999
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	You can use these tricks to save your life if you are really LOST
in a tough place.

	Dear Vo.,

	Following is John the Little's  2 cent RDF, Radio Direction
Finding ... for the poor folks.

	You can do this, alone, or with friend [s] and coordinated by cell
phones if you want to get fancy.

	1] use inexpensive AM radio... the Radio Shack "Flavoradio" is
good and it costs less than 10 USD, I have seen it drop to 3 or 5 dollars
on sale.

	Inside it has a ferrite rod antenna
	and the antenna end on has poor detection if compared with the
full width of the antenna.

	First:

	Let's try to locate a radio transmitter.  
	a]	Pick one you can hear OK on am... not TOO loud ...
	b]	holding the radio up right you will rotate it slowly on a
compass rose and you will find the signal gets stonger and weaker.
	c] get out your map and yellow pages of your telephone book and
the city street guide map of the town the radio is in.
	d]	make a mark on the map "I am here!" ....
	e]	draw a line, lightly, in pencil ... so you can use the map
again!  The line will go out from the radio and describe the WEAKEST pick
up of the radio station..... the skinny part of the ferrite rod antenna
will be pointing along a line that, among other things, .. goes through
the station.

	NOW: ....  drive in your car... or ride your horse, or bicycle or
walk or how some  ever ... about 5 to 10 miles...
	AND:

	2]  Holding the radio vertical and rotating about a compass
heading ... you will now have a SECOND line ... AND !!!! 
	Tradaaa to dee doaaa!  Where they cross is where the  transmitter
is ... roughly.

	AND: Go to the library and get book on RDF!  and-or amateur radio.

				J
		

On Wed, 20 Oct 1999, Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> Michael Schaffer wrote:
> > 
>  
> > [snip]
>     
> >    Try searching for the source with a directional antenna. A portable radio
> > with a ferrite antenna (dipole directivity pattern) might be more convenient
> > than your big receiver. If it is a local source, try driving around in a car
> > with an AM radio and seek maximum signal strength.
> 
> The broadband interference, whatever it was, vanished at some time after
> I encountered it (immediately after the Mojave earthquake) and
> approximately 36 hours later, when I turned on the AM radio again to see
> if it (the interference) was still there. 
> 
> It turns out the earthquake epicenter is located only about 36 mi east
> from my location, at a spot called Hector where there supposedly an 
> abandoned mine dating back to the 1890's or so. 
> 
> Anyway, If I encounter the phenomena again, I will do as you suggest,
> right after I get finished taking things down from shelves and otherwise
> securing other objects around my place located in precipitous
> situations. 
> 
> Jim Ostrowski 
> 
>  
> >
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 20 11:16:06 1999
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Subject: Solving ASCII Art Problems
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I just got a fascinating e-mail from Dan Quickert who apparently has the
solution to the ASCII art problem. According to him, the problem arises
when the sending party uses a fixed length font (e.g., Courier), and the
default font of the recipient (Times, in my case) is a variable length
font. Result: the spaces do not line up on the recipient's screen in the
same way that they lined up on the sender's screen, and the art is garbled.
To test this out, I followed his advice and selected the ASCII art that I
got from Jean-Louis, and transformed it to Courier font. Result: it then
lined up perfectly!  Result: problem solved!

Thanks, Dan!

--Mitchell Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 20 11:17:35 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The M.Meyer-Mace solid state energy converter
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>I think what's happening is simply the use of a variable width font.
>JLN ASCII are comes out just fine if I use fixed width to view it, so I
>don't think
>his ASCII art was messed up at all.
>

 ***{You are correct, but I didn't see that when I first read your
comments, because my e-mail program doesn't have a "fixed-length" option.
But then Dan Quickert pointed out to me in a private e-mail that some fonts
are fixed length (e.g., Courier), and that I can simply highlight the ASCII
art and change the font to Courier, and everything will be fine. At that
point, I understood your post. Thanks to you, and to Dan, for providing me
with the solution to a problem that has irritated me for years! Hats off to
both of you! --Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 20 15:39:24 1999
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Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 17:56:40 -0400
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From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: GEET plans available
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Plans for a GEET device are now available at:

http://www.friend.ly.net/GEET/plans.htm

I know that this will not interest those of you like Jed Rothwell who 
are certain that unlimited quantities of energy will soon be 
available through cold fusion.  However, you can make this device for 
a small price and it actually works (as opposed to cf which costs a 
lot and doesn't work).  It would be good to see someone make this and 
report on the operation.
Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 614-6121  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 20 16:38:44 1999
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Subject: Re: GEET plans available
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Larry -

Are you sure you know it works? 

> However, you can make this device for
> a small price and it actually works (as opposed to cf which costs a
> lot and doesn't work).  It would be good to see someone make this and
> report on the operation.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 20 17:22:21 1999
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GEET, New?   How long will it take to foul your engine?     FJS

 http://www.burlingtonelectric.org/specialtopics/biomass/biomass.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 20 17:29:04 1999
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 http://www.globalchange.org/ctrforgc/cgcdoc8.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 20 18:37:17 1999
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Before you get GOT by GEET, GET A BOOK.

 http://www.webpan.com/BEF/befpress.htm

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 20 19:06:20 1999
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Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 22:01:20 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: GEET plans available
In-Reply-To: <v04210100b433e81aceed [128.183.108.190]>
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Larry Wharton wrote:

>Plans for a GEET device are now available at:
>
>http://www.friend.ly.net/GEET/plans.htm
>
>I know that this will not interest those of you like Jed Rothwell who 
>are certain that unlimited quantities of energy will soon be 
>available through cold fusion. . . .

That's a dumb thing to say. Consider:

1. I regularly post messages about conventional energy conservation
technology such as hybrid electric vehicles and compact flourescent light
bulbs.

2. Our magazine has published articles about GEET, and we have a machine
for evaluation.

3. This information, about on-line plans, was first posted here by my
colleague Gene Mallove.

4. This is a stretch, but if the GEET works, it may be anomalous, which
means I am interested in it and it may lead to unlimited supplies of
energy. I have clearly stated on countless occasions that I do not care
whether unlimited, pollution free energy comes from CF or green cheese.

5. I have repeatedly stated that I do not know whether CF will arrive
"soon" or never, and that the arrival depends partly upon forces beyond our
control, such as politics.

I have noticed several gratuitous derisive comments here lately, some
directed at me, some directed at others. This is uncalled for.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 20 22:40:52 1999
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 <3.0.5.32.19990729211828.008aa8c0 mail.eden.com>
 <3.0.5.32.19990729211828.008aa8c0 mail.eden.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 00:36:58 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: GEET plans available
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>Larry Wharton wrote:
>
>>Plans for a GEET device are now available at:
>>
>>http://www.friend.ly.net/GEET/plans.htm
>>
>>I know that this will not interest those of you like Jed Rothwell who
>>are certain that unlimited quantities of energy will soon be
>>available through cold fusion. . . .
>
>That's a dumb thing to say.

[snip]

>
>I have noticed several gratuitous derisive comments here lately, some
>directed at me, some directed at others. This is uncalled for.

***{Said the pot, in reference to the kettle. --MJ}***

>
>- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 20 22:49:31 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas Malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: questions about the GEET 
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Jed Rothwell wrote;
>4. This is a stretch, but if the GEET works, it may be anomalous, which
>means I am interested in it and it may lead to unlimited supplies of
>energy.

So you have a GEET, I have several questions. It was reported following
Paul Pantone's talk at an INE conference that if you increased the amount
of water in the fuel, air, water mixture the pipe going from the GEET
machine to the engine got white hot, is this true? As I understand it, the
GEET phonomena works with magnetism and an induced vortex. According to
Paul Pantone, you can use toxic waste as fuel and the engine's exhaust will
exceed EPA guidelines for new car emissions without a catlytic converter.
I'm wondering what would happen if you added chlorinated hydrocarbons to
the fuel stream.


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From: "dwenbert" <dwenbert spacey.net>
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In RE: GEET:

>1. I regularly post messages about conventional energy conservation
>technology such as hybrid electric vehicles and compact flourescent light
>bulbs.
>2. Our magazine has published articles about GEET, and we have a machine
>for evaluation.
>3. This information, about on-line plans, was first posted here by my
>colleague Gene Mallove.
>4. This is a stretch, but if the GEET works, it may be anomalous, which
>means I am interested in it and it may lead to unlimited supplies of
>energy. I have clearly stated on countless occasions that I do not care
>whether unlimited, pollution free energy comes from CF or green cheese.
>5. I have repeatedly stated that I do not know whether CF will arrive
>"soon" or never, and that the arrival depends partly upon forces beyond our
>control, such as politics.

Dear Jed:

My company is extremely interested in the GEET technology, IF it works.

I have written to Hal Fox, who happens to be in Salt Lake City (where Paul
Pantone and his company are) to see if he could give me  a 'heads up' on
Paul and the GEET device; thus far: silence.  One would hope that, given his
position in the CF/Alternative Energy movement, he might take some time to
respond.

We have extensively studied the dynamics of the Ranque/Hilsch tube, on which
the GEET is based (for the world's best synopsis, see:
http://birleanu-pc1.sunderland.ac.uk/rhvtmatl/oldindex.htm ), and find good
reason to suspect that Pantone has, in fact, effected an architecture which
aligns the thermodynamic, chemical, electrodynamic, mechanical and optical
reactions which occur simultaneously, in such a way as to obtain the
'leverage' he needs to efficiently reform hydrogen from complex
hydrocarbons, using only waste exhaust heat as the input energy source.

In this regard, he is many years ahead of everyone else in the field of
'hydrogen reforming from exhaust gases', which is a well recognized
subculture in conventional alternative energy research.    The recognized
leaders in that field (Explore links from:
ttp://sun1.bham.ac.uk/M.L.Wyszynski/abstracts/Stuttgart96/hydrogen96sum.html
 )
have devices that weigh hundreds of pounds attached to small engines, and
have a long way to go to be practical as a vehicular adjunct -- requiring a
trailer be towed behind the vehicle who's engine they are supporting with
the reformed fuel.   Given the absence of detractors online - unlike Joe
Newman, Dennis Lee, et al - one is given to suspect that Pantone is the
Genuine Article.

I have offered to engage the Bioenergy Technology Laboratory of Florida
Institute of Technology and the BTR Labs facility of the Midwest Research
Institute (the management contractor to DoE for the National Renewable
Energy Laboratory) to conclusively ascertain the dynamics of the GEET
device, at our expense, using the most sophisticated analytical
instrumentation currently available.   Given Paul's more advanced GEET
architectures, we could determine, through Nuclear Magnetic Resonance
Spectroscopy, and other means, exactly WHAT is going on inside that tube.
The magnetic phenomena which occur around it and the - sketchy -
spectroscopy Pantone has gotten from Brigham Young and MIT suggesting low
energy nuclear reactions (i.e. 57 anomalous elements in the exhaust stream
and insufficient carbon discharge) make this an interesting study, which is
much more easily diagnosed than flaky cold fusion electrolysis cells;
there's just a lot more chemical throughput to analyze and no complex
metallurgy to contend with.

We are interested in using the GEET to decompose household garbage (less
recyclable glass/aluminum, and compostable wet food waste), and it seems to
be the best of the half dozen or so technologies available.

If you have a test unit, what do your test results show????

/Dave
David L. Wenbert
Incandesic Cellular Energy,
a Division of
The Great Power & Light Company
A Gaian Renaissance Organisation



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Fred writes:
> http://www.globalchange.org/ctrforgc/cgcdoc8.htm
>Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
>	name="Tree Planting to Abate Carbon Dioxide Emissions Options for Southern
California Edison.url"

Fred, you are the surfer extraordiare!  I've been filing away these URLS of
yours for some time now, and you throw them at us with such rapidity, that I
don't normally even have time to read them all.  This one caught my eye,
however, and I had to respond.  I read the report, and I don't know if you
have contact with these people, but if you do, you should suggest that they
look into planting bamboo as an alternative to tree planting.  Besides
having many unique structural and insulation advantages over wood, it can
also easily be used for paper production, which has been a major waste of
trees in this world.  As a bio-remediator, bamboo will absorb 40 times the
amount of carbon per acre compared to trees.  Harvesting bamboo is
infinitely easier and safer in comparison to logging.  Westerners don't
think about bamboo as an alternative, I think, mainly because it has no
tradition here, but it grows just fine in many parts of this country.  I
think that it could be a major cash crop if we dropped the blinders, and
used it.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 21 04:48:59 1999
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: GEET plans available
In-Reply-To: <v04011701b43454be24c4 [207.8.127.184]>
References: <3.0.1.32.19991020220120.00690ec8 pop.mindspring.com>
 <v04210100b433e81aceed [128.183.108.190]>
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At 12:36 AM 10/21/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>>Larry Wharton wrote:
>>
>>>Plans for a GEET device are now available at:
>>>http://www.friend.ly.net/GEET/plans.htm
>>>
>>>I know that this will not interest those of you like Jed Rothwell who
>>>are certain that unlimited quantities of energy will soon be
>>>available through cold fusion. . . .
>>
>>That's a dumb thing to say.
>
>[snip]


  If people want to find out about cold fusion
[low energy nuclear reactions] they can get introduction to
literature with the truth on the science and engineering of the field,
with some references and leads available on the internet at
 http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrefs.html and
 http://kemi.aau.dk/~db/fusion/index.html
 There is data showing excess heat, and de novo helium-4
and tritium.


 Not sure where the best data for GEET is?  Larry?
It does not appear to be on the web page.

 =======================================================

>>I have noticed several gratuitous derisive comments here lately, some
>>directed at me, some directed at others. This is uncalled for.
>
>***{Said the pot, in reference to the kettle. --MJ}***
>
>>
>>- Jed

   Well put, Mitchell.

    Mitchell Swartz

    

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 21 04:50:39 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <19991021102752734.AAA239 mail.lcia.com@lizard>
Subject: Re: Tree Planting to Abate Carbon Dioxide Emissions Options for Southern California
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----- Original Message -----
From: Michael T Huffman <knuke LCIA.COM>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 3:27 AM
Subject: Re: Tree Planting to Abate Carbon Dioxide Emissions Options for
Southern California

Knuke wrote:


> Fred writes:
> > http://www.globalchange.org/ctrforgc/cgcdoc8.htm
>
>I read the report, and I don't know if you
> have contact with these people, but if you do, you should suggest that
they
> look into planting bamboo as an alternative to tree planting.  Besides
> having many unique structural and insulation advantages over wood, it can
> also easily be used for paper production, which has been a major waste of
> trees in this world.  As a bio-remediator, bamboo will absorb 40 times the
> amount of carbon per acre compared to trees.  Harvesting bamboo is
> infinitely easier and safer in comparison to logging.  Westerners don't
> think about bamboo as an alternative, I think, mainly because it has no
> tradition here, but it grows just fine in many parts of this country.  I
> think that it could be a major cash crop if we dropped the blinders, and
> used it.

I agree 100%, Knuke. There is a species of bamboo in this area, (and I've
seen
it in Virgina) that will produce over 30 tons/acre-year on a dry weight
basis. And
livestock love it too.Several years ago, I had the State Agricultural
Research Lab
dig some rhizomes up from my yard and plant it in the high plains for yield
and
water requirement studies.
Field corn raised for green chop/silage will hit about 15-20 tons/acre (dry
wt) also.

In the early 70s SRI, did a study on "energy farms" using high tonnage
biomass and
sunflowers (of all things)are right at the top of the list. :-)

With ash-mineral recovery and H2 production from the biogasification,
ammonia
synthesis is a snap, and the benifit/tillage ratio is about 16:1, ie., 40
acres of energy
crop will support 640 acres of  agricultural/biomass production, (if
irrigation water is
available, "dryland farming" or, at a reasonable energy expenditure).

Regards,    Frederick
>
> Knuke
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 21 06:07:49 1999
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Subject: Re: GEET plans available
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:08:39 -0400
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Vortex,

We do have two GEET machines for testing here and  I did do some testing
over a year ago on one of them.  I found that the emissions were indeed
rather clean, as was reported and documented with fractional analysis.
Sampling bottles provided by a company in Midland, TX that serves the oil
industry were evacuated and connected directly into the exhaust stream.
Samples were taken in a fairly normal carburation configuration and in the
GEET configuration.  The lab then performed analysis on both, confirming
several of Pantone's claims.  I do not know if this may be caused by lean
running, due to the high vacuum developed in the intake fuel vapor stream.
I would very much like to know the condition of the valves of an engine
running under load configured with a GEET after a few thousand hours.  Lean
running may be clean, but engines do not tolerate it well.

More interestingly, I found that the rod in the 'pyrolytic chamber' was
strongly magnetized, with one distinct north and one distinct south pole.
Wanting to see if the magnetization originated in the operation of the
device or elsewhere, I removed it, reversed it, reinstalled it, and ran it
several times.  The rod then showed a quite different and much less simple
magnetization.

I have the materials to do further testing, intending to start with a virgin
steel rod, showing no magetization.

Some of you may remember my posting the question to Vortex asking if anyone
could think of a means by which the rod could become magnetized by being
exposed to the hot gas stream (which Pantone believes to be plasma), and the
only replies that attempted to answer tried to explain it in terms of an
ordinary method of magnetization.

I think that the Pantone decision to make the plans available is admirable,
although the market tends to react to such offers as being worth as much as
they cost.  GEET is not very scientific in their approach, and I really
ought to be generating some more results.

Edward Wall
New Energy Research Laboratory
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822  fax (603) 224-5975
ewall infinite-energy.com  www.infinite-energy.com


----- Original Message -----
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: GEET plans available


> Larry Wharton wrote:
>
> >Plans for a GEET device are now available at:
> >
> >http://www.friend.ly.net/GEET/plans.htm
> >
> >I know that this will not interest those of you like Jed Rothwell who
> >are certain that unlimited quantities of energy will soon be
> >available through cold fusion. . . .
>
> That's a dumb thing to say. Consider:
>
> 1. I regularly post messages about conventional energy conservation
> technology such as hybrid electric vehicles and compact flourescent light
> bulbs.
>
> 2. Our magazine has published articles about GEET, and we have a machine
> for evaluation.
>
> 3. This information, about on-line plans, was first posted here by my
> colleague Gene Mallove.
>
> 4. This is a stretch, but if the GEET works, it may be anomalous, which
> means I am interested in it and it may lead to unlimited supplies of
> energy. I have clearly stated on countless occasions that I do not care
> whether unlimited, pollution free energy comes from CF or green cheese.
>
> 5. I have repeatedly stated that I do not know whether CF will arrive
> "soon" or never, and that the arrival depends partly upon forces beyond
our
> control, such as politics.
>
> I have noticed several gratuitous derisive comments here lately, some
> directed at me, some directed at others. This is uncalled for.
>
> - Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 21 06:24:24 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <Ron.Brodzinski pnl.gov>
Subject: CLEAN FUNNEL - For Fueling Your GEET
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:20:39 -0700
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF1B94.C6AE88A0
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Hoyt Pattison, a longtime business partner developed, patented, and
manufactures this goodie. 

He got tired of cleaning funnels every time he wanted to use one for
the equipment that powers his 2,700 acre farm.

How many Hectares is that, Jed?

I got my set for free.  :-)

 http://www.inter-connections.com/funnlweb/index.html

Regards,    Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 21 06:27:56 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.19990729211828.008aa8c0 mail.eden.com><3.0.5.32.19990729211828.008aa8c0@mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19991020220120.00690ec8@pop.mindspring.com> <001f01bf1bc5$656fdb80$43627dc7@computer>
Subject: Re: GEET plans available
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Vortex,

In the interests of full disclosure, I do have a personal financial interest
in GEET that is not shared by Gene Mallove or anyone else here at Cold
Fusion Technology.

Also, I think I was the first to arrange for the burning of a mixture of
gasoline and Pepsi in about a 3 or 4 to 1 ratio (gas to Pepsi).  It seemed
to run fine, with a slightly Pepsified aroma to the unobjectionable exhaust,
for 10 to 15 minutes.  All other testing I have performed was with straight
gasoline.

Edward Wall
New Energy Research Laboratory
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822  fax (603) 224-5975
ewall infinite-energy.com  www.infinite-energy.com


----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Wall <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: GEET plans available


> Vortex,
>
> We do have two GEET machines for testing here and  I did do some testing
> over a year ago on one of them.  I found that the emissions were indeed
> rather clean, as was reported and documented with fractional analysis.
> Sampling bottles provided by a company in Midland, TX that serves the oil
> industry were evacuated and connected directly into the exhaust stream.
> Samples were taken in a fairly normal carburation configuration and in the
> GEET configuration.  The lab then performed analysis on both, confirming
> several of Pantone's claims.  I do not know if this may be caused by lean
> running, due to the high vacuum developed in the intake fuel vapor stream.
> I would very much like to know the condition of the valves of an engine
> running under load configured with a GEET after a few thousand hours.
Lean
> running may be clean, but engines do not tolerate it well.
>
> More interestingly, I found that the rod in the 'pyrolytic chamber' was
> strongly magnetized, with one distinct north and one distinct south pole.
> Wanting to see if the magnetization originated in the operation of the
> device or elsewhere, I removed it, reversed it, reinstalled it, and ran it
> several times.  The rod then showed a quite different and much less simple
> magnetization.
>
> I have the materials to do further testing, intending to start with a
virgin
> steel rod, showing no magetization.
>
> Some of you may remember my posting the question to Vortex asking if
anyone
> could think of a means by which the rod could become magnetized by being
> exposed to the hot gas stream (which Pantone believes to be plasma), and
the
> only replies that attempted to answer tried to explain it in terms of an
> ordinary method of magnetization.
>
> I think that the Pantone decision to make the plans available is
admirable,
> although the market tends to react to such offers as being worth as much
as
> they cost.  GEET is not very scientific in their approach, and I really
> ought to be generating some more results.
>
> Edward Wall
> New Energy Research Laboratory
> Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
> (603) 226-4822  fax (603) 224-5975
> ewall infinite-energy.com  www.infinite-energy.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 10:01 PM
> Subject: Re: GEET plans available
>
>
> > Larry Wharton wrote:
> >
> > >Plans for a GEET device are now available at:
> > >
> > >http://www.friend.ly.net/GEET/plans.htm
> > >
> > >I know that this will not interest those of you like Jed Rothwell who
> > >are certain that unlimited quantities of energy will soon be
> > >available through cold fusion. . . .
> >
> > That's a dumb thing to say. Consider:
> >
> > 1. I regularly post messages about conventional energy conservation
> > technology such as hybrid electric vehicles and compact flourescent
light
> > bulbs.
> >
> > 2. Our magazine has published articles about GEET, and we have a machine
> > for evaluation.
> >
> > 3. This information, about on-line plans, was first posted here by my
> > colleague Gene Mallove.
> >
> > 4. This is a stretch, but if the GEET works, it may be anomalous, which
> > means I am interested in it and it may lead to unlimited supplies of
> > energy. I have clearly stated on countless occasions that I do not care
> > whether unlimited, pollution free energy comes from CF or green cheese.
> >
> > 5. I have repeatedly stated that I do not know whether CF will arrive
> > "soon" or never, and that the arrival depends partly upon forces beyond
> our
> > control, such as politics.
> >
> > I have noticed several gratuitous derisive comments here lately, some
> > directed at me, some directed at others. This is uncalled for.
> >
> > - Jed
> >
> >
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 21 07:10:05 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: CLEAN FUNNEL - For Fueling Your GEET
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>He got tired of cleaning funnels every time he wanted to use one for
>the equipment that powers his 2,700 acre farm.
>
>How many Hectares is that, Jed?

1,093, according to the Aqua-chem, Inc, Water Technologies Division,
Conversion Factors & Data handbook. What I need is an on-line conversion
table.

- Jed

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Unit Conversion Sites
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:16:30 -0400
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>1,093, according to the Aqua-chem, Inc, Water Technologies Division,
>Conversion Factors & Data handbook. What I need is an on-line conversion
>table.

"Measure 4 Measure Sites That Do the Work For You"
http://www.wolinskyweb.com/measure.htm

The Universal Currency Converter(tm)
http://www.xe.net/ucc/

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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Tree Planting to Abate Carbon Dioxide Emissions Options for Southern California
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:00:20 -0400
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>In the early 70s SRI, did a study on "energy farms" using high tonnage
>biomass and
>sunflowers (of all things)are right at the top of the list. :-)

In many parts of Southern Europe I saw this being done if I understand you
correctly.  They would plant a very early "fertilizer crop" that grew very
quickly, plow it under, and then plant the main food crop.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 21 08:23:03 1999
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Subject: Re: Tree Planting to Abate Carbon Dioxide Emissions Options for Southern California
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----- Original Message -----
From: Michael T Huffman <knuke LCIA.COM>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: Tree Planting to Abate Carbon Dioxide Emissions Options for
Southern California

Knuke wrote:
>
> In many parts of Southern Europe I saw this being done if I understand you
> correctly.  They would plant a very early "fertilizer crop" that grew very
> quickly, plow it under, and then plant the main food crop.

Sounds right, Knuke. If you plant a legume (Nitrogen Fixation)such as
Alfalfa,
Soybeans, Clover, etc., then you don't have to make Ammonia or Urea:

1,  N2 + 3H2 --->  2  NH3 (anhydrous ammonia, liquid)

2, 2 NH3 + CO2 --->   NH2-CO-NH2  (urea, solid) + H2O

Phosphate, Potassium and other essential plant minerals are recoverable from
the biomass-H2-synfuels process ash, and are recycled.

Regards,   Frederick
>
> Knuke
> Michael T. Huffman
> Huffman Technology Company
> 1121 Dustin Drive
> The Villages, Florida 32159
> (352)259-1276
> knuke LCIA.COM
> http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 21 09:22:43 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Misuse of Words
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I realize that attempts to correct the usages of others are generally
fruitless, but this group has been flagrantly abusing a number of words
derived from Greek antecedents for a very long time, and so, for the record:

(1) "Phenomena," "criteria," and "data" are plural. Thus when you say "a
phenomena," or "a criteria, or "data is," you misuse the words.

(2) The singular forms of the above words, respectively, are "phenomenon,"
"criterion," and "datum."

Admittedly, I am not flawless in my usages the above, since I sometimes
find myself writing "data is" despite knowing better, due to the corruptive
influences with which I am surrounded. For those of you who do *not* know
better, however, this should be a wake-up call. (Yeah, I know: it won't be.
You guys would be embarassed to actually use these words correctly, and so
you will continue abusing them despite my comments. Well, at least I tried.
:-)

--Mitchell Jones

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From: bpaddock csonline.net (Bob Paddock)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Misuse of Words
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:36:06 -0400
Organization: is mostly via piles
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>influences with which I am surrounded. For those of you who do *not* know
>better, however, this should be a wake-up call. (Yeah, I know: it won't be.
>You guys would be embarassed to actually use these words correctly, and so
>you will continue abusing them despite my comments. Well, at least I tried.

Actually I'd like to improve my grammar and writing style.
Any good on line tutorials?

All thorough English Class in school I had two fundamental
problems:

A) I'm never going to need this stuff why am I wasting my
time with it.  We've all been there in one subject or other.
Now I'm starting to make my living doing it.  Fate is not
with out its sense of irony it seems.

B) I kept asking "Why?".  To which no teacher could give me
a logical answer.  "Why does I before E except after C?  So
thEIr!" as just one example [Yes I know there is more to
that].  If your on this list I know you ask "Why?" a lot too
[or is that to, or maybe two...lets just go with 2...].



Spelling: See "The New Age of REASON" by John M.  Culkin, Science
Digest-August 1981.

"The English alphabet is pure insanity.  It can hardly spell any word in
the language with any large degree of certainty.  ...The silliness of the
English alphabet are quite beyond enumeration.  Where as the English
orthography needs...simplifying, the English alphabet needs it two or
three million times more." - Mark Twain.

...an intelligent child who is bidden to spell "DEBT", and very properly
spells it "D-E-T", is caned for not spelling it with a "B" because
Julius Caesar spelled it with a "B".  - George Bernard Shaw.

See also:"Alfubet F/\R hu Komput.r /_\j" (Titel is close has I could get
in ASCII.) by John Culkin-Science Digest- August 1982.  "UNIFON, a
phonetic alphabet that is five times more efficient than our ABC's, may
revolutionize reading and writing-and help us communicate better with
computers."  ..."Fans of Unifon don't want to wait another 3,000 years
before eliminating the illogic from our language."   The UNIFON Alphabet
(Trade mark) is by John Malone


Eye stold dis frum anodder net.
Owed to the Spell Checker

 I have a spelling checker -
 It came with my PC.
 It plane lee marks four my revue
 Miss steaks aye can knot sea.

 Eye ran this poem threw it,
 Your sure reel glad two no.
 Its vary polished in it's weigh,
 My checker tolled me sew.

 A checker is a bless sing,
 It freeze yew lodes of thyme.
 It helps me right awl stiles two reed,
 And aides me when aye rime.

 To rite with care is quite a feet
 Of witch won should be proud.
 And wee mussed dew the best wee can,
 Sew flaws are knot aloud.

 And now bee cause my spelling
 Is checked with such grate flare,
 Their are know faults with in my cite,
 Of nun eye am a wear.

 Each frays come posed up on my screen
 Eye trussed to bee a joule
 The checker poured o'er every word
 To cheque sum spelling rule.

 That's why aye brake in two averse
 By righting wants too pleas.
 Sow now ewe sea why aye dew prays
 Such soft wear for pea seas!

	- Unknown.


-- 
For information on any of the following check out my WEB site at:
                   http://www.biogate.com/bpaddock/
Chemical Free Air Conditioning/No CFC's, Chronic Pain Relief, Echofone,
Electromedicine, Electronics, Explore!, Free Energy, Full Disclosure,
KeelyNet, Matric Limited, Neurophone, Oil City PA, Philadelphia Experiment.
                         http://www.uCOS-II.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 21 09:54:55 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Misuse of Words
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Mitchell,

I appreciate the reminder.  It helps to avoid appearing ignorant.

Ed Wall


----- Original Message -----
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 12:17 PM
Subject: Misuse of Words


> I realize that attempts to correct the usages of others are generally
> fruitless, but this group has been flagrantly abusing a number of words
> derived from Greek antecedents for a very long time, and so, for the
record:
>
> (1) "Phenomena," "criteria," and "data" are plural. Thus when you say "a
> phenomena," or "a criteria, or "data is," you misuse the words.
>
> (2) The singular forms of the above words, respectively, are "phenomenon,"
> "criterion," and "datum."


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 21 10:43:21 1999
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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:39:06 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Cryptic Calculations
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>Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
>>He got tired of cleaning funnels every time he wanted to use one for
>>the equipment that powers his 2,700 acre farm.
>>
>>How many Hectares is that, Jed?
>
>1,093, according to the Aqua-chem, Inc, Water Technologies Division,
>Conversion Factors & Data handbook. What I need is an on-line conversion
>table.
>
>- Jed

***{Looking conversion factors up in a table is fine for a person who
already moves smoothly and easily back and forth between metric and English
units, but I think it is better for the novice to calculate such things.
For those who remember that a section (a square 1 mile on a side) is 640
acres, and that a hectare is a square 100 meters on a side, the conversion
is easy: the number of hectares per acre equals the number of hectares in a
section divided by 640--to wit:  [(5280)(12)/(39.37)(100)]^2/640 = .405
hect/acre. Thus a 2700 acre farm is 2700)(.405) = 1093 hectares. Doing
these sorts of simple calculations yourself, of course, requires knowledge
of basic relationships between units (e.g., that a meter equals 39.37
inches, that a mile equals 5280 feet, etc.), but that is easy to acquire:
you just look them up when you don't remember them. Result: before long you
will remember the ones that you use often, and thus will acquire the
ability to move easily back and forth between the metric and the English
systems of units.

I mention the above because many of the lurkers in this group will enhance
their ability to follow these discussions by means of such practice. I also
would suggest that those who post here ought to go into more detail in
their various calculations, so that their reasoning will be intelligible to
a broader cross section of those who read this group. I constantly see not
merely bad English here--as mentioned in another post--but also cryptic
calculations that will be understood by virtually no one other than
practicing engineers and physicists. Since in the typical group there are
huge numbers of lurkers for everyone who posts, I think those who
participate in this group ought to skip fewer steps in almost all of the
calculations that they discuss.

--Mitchell Jones}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 21 11:12:05 1999
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Subject: Re: GEET plans available
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 17:57:58 -0700
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 2:56 PM
Subject: GEET plans available

What planet are you from, Larry?  :-)

Any biomass gasifier that use the exhaust heat of the engine
to make synthesis gas (H2, COx, CH4 etc.) will work and
have been in use for decades. 



> 
> Plans for a GEET device are now available at:
> 
> http://www.friend.ly.net/GEET/plans.htm
> 
> I know that this will not interest those of you like Jed Rothwell who 
> are certain that unlimited quantities of energy will soon be 
> available through cold fusion.  However, you can make this device for 
> a small price and it actually works (as opposed to cf which costs a 
> lot and doesn't work).  It would be good to see someone make this and 
> report on the operation.
> Lawrence E. Wharton
> NASA/GSFC code 913
> Greenbelt MD 20771
> (301) 614-6121  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 21 11:38:29 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Misuse of Words
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Bob Paddock asks:

>Actually I'd like to improve my grammar and writing style.
>Any good on line tutorials?

The best guide by far is off-line, but available at any bookstore for
$5.95. It is Strunk & White's "The Elements of Style," (Allyn and Bacon,
1979), 92 pages, a.k.a. "The Little Book." As one reviewer said, this book
"should be the daily companion of anyone who writes for a living and, for
that matter, anyone who writes at all."


Mitchell Jones wrote:

> I realize that attempts to correct the usages of others are generally
> fruitless, but this group has been flagrantly abusing a number of words
> derived from Greek antecedents for a very long time, and so, for the
record:
>
> (1) "Phenomena," "criteria," and "data" are plural. Thus when you say "a
> phenomena," or "a criteria, or "data is," you misuse the words.

I disagree. We speak English, not Greek. We should apply English rules to
all words, regardless of origin. Borrow words should be treated with
standard syntax, inflections, parts of speech and pronunciation. In
English, "data" has evolved into a non-count noun, like "milk" or "sand."
We say "kimonos" with the plural inflection even though Japanese makes no
distinction between numbers.

Japanese speakers sometimes treat English borrow words as exceptions,
applying pseudo-English structures. This confuses everyone, native speaker
and translator alike. It is pedantic to emphasize the foreign origin of
words. It serves no purpose. Nearly all words in English (and Japanese too,
as it happens) have been borrowed from other languages during the last
2,000 years. English has borrowed from hundreds of other languages in all
parts of the world. It is bad enough that we preserve the original
spellings so often. We could never preserve the original syntax,
pronunciation, parts of speech, cases and so on from sources as varied as
French, German, Dutch, Russian, Latin, Greek, Navaho and Chinese. The past
tense of "tote" would be formed according to the rules for Swahili, and the
past tense of "stoke" would be in Dutch. It would be chaos. There would
dozens of different ways to form plurals, no plurals at all for many words,
sixty different diminutives, and hundreds of other peculiar, unique
inflections. For example, adjectives borrowed from Japanese would have a
past tense: "is blue" (aoi) would be a different word than "was blue"
(aokatta). And if you think that's confusing wait until you see Russian.

English is complicated enough already. It has more idiomatic grammar than
most languages, and of the major languages it has the third most difficult
form of orthography, measured by the number years it takes children to
master the spelling. (Chinese and Japanese rank 1 and 2, last I checked.)

- Jed

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From: bpaddock csonline.net (Bob Paddock)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cryptic Calculations
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:41:14 -0400
Organization: is mostly via piles
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>***{Looking conversion factors up in a table is fine for a person who
>already moves smoothly and easily back and forth between metric and English
>units, but I think it is better for the novice to calculate such things.

Can you or some one tell me why in the in English/Metric
conversion, we are always converting Pounds to Kilograms and
vica-versa?

The Pound is a unit of Weight in the English System.  The
Kilogram is a unit of Mass in the Metric System.

In the English System the Slug is the unit of Mass, and in
the Metric System the Newton is the unit of Weight.

I never see any one converting Slugs to Kilograms, or
Newtons to Pounds?

Most conversion factors found in tables for Pounds to Kilograms/K to P 
only apply on Earth... :-)


-- 
For information on any of the following check out my WEB site at:
                   http://www.biogate.com/bpaddock/
Chemical Free Air Conditioning/No CFC's, Chronic Pain Relief, Echofone,
Electromedicine, Electronics, Explore!, Free Energy, Full Disclosure,
KeelyNet, Matric Limited, Neurophone, Oil City PA, Philadelphia Experiment.
                         http://www.uCOS-II.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 21 13:00:02 1999
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General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9910062


From: Murat Ozer sci <mozer ksu.edu.sa>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:26:32 GMT   (11kb)

On the Equivalence Principle and a Unified
Description of Gravitation and Electromagnetism

Author: Murat Özer
Comments: 11 pages, LaTex

     We first investigate the form the general relativity theory would have
     taken had the gravitational mass and the inertial mass of material objects
     been different. We then extend this analysis to electromagnetism and
     postulate an equivalence principle for the electromagnetic field. We
     argue that to each particle with a different electric charge-to-mass ratio
     in a gravitational and electromagnetic field there corresponds a
     spacetime manifold whose metric tensor g_{\mu\nu} describes the
     dynamical actions of gravitation and electromagnetism.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 21 16:12:48 1999
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

> I realize that attempts to correct the usages of others are
> generally
> fruitless, but this group has been flagrantly abusing a number
> of words
> derived from Greek antecedents for a very long time, and so,
> for the record:
>
> (1) "Phenomena," "criteria," and "data" are plural. Thus when
> you say "a
> phenomena," or "a criteria, or "data is," you misuse the words.
>
> (2) The singular forms of the above words, respectively, are
> "phenomenon,"
> "criterion," and "datum."
>
> Admittedly, I am not flawless in my usages of? the above, since
> I sometimes
> find myself writing "data is"  interestingly, usage determines
> the ultimate meaning of language. Consider the recent use of
> the superlative, "unique".  Watch TV and you'll hear claims
> that one product is "more unique" than another...  despite
> knowing better, due to the corruptive
> influences with which I am surrounded.  Perhaps it would be
> better if you blamed yourself for your own shortcomings instead
> of blaming the environment in which you choose to exist?  For
> those of you who do *not* know better, however, this should be
> a wake-up call.  Pot, kettle, black?  (Yeah, I know: it won't
> be.
> You guys would be embarassed embarrassed to actually use these
> words correctly, and so
> you will continue abusing them despite my comments. Well, at
> least I tried.
> :-)

Ethanol is often more dangerous than it seems to be ...

John Fields


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<HTML>
Mitchell Jones wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>I realize that attempts to correct the usages of
others are generally
<BR>fruitless, but this group has been flagrantly abusing a number of words
<BR>derived from Greek antecedents for a very long time, and so, for the
record:

<P>(1) "Phenomena," "criteria," and "data" are plural. Thus when you say
"a
<BR>phenomena," or "a criteria, or "data is," you misuse the words.

<P>(2) The singular forms of the above words, respectively, are "phenomenon,"
<BR>"criterion," and "datum."

<P>Admittedly, I am not flawless in my usages <TT>of?</TT> the above, since
I sometimes
<BR>find myself writing "data is"&nbsp; <TT>interestingly, usage determines
the ultimate meaning of language. Consider the recent use of the superlative,
"unique".&nbsp; Watch TV and you'll hear claims that one product is "more
unique" than another...&nbsp; </TT>despite knowing better, due to the corruptive
<BR>influences with which I am surrounded.&nbsp; <TT>Perhaps it would be
better if you blamed yourself for your own shortcomings instead of blaming
the environment in which you choose to exist?&nbsp; </TT>For those of you
who do *not* know better, however, this should be a wake-up call.&nbsp;
<TT>Pot, kettle, black?&nbsp;</TT> (Yeah, I know: it won't be.
<BR>You guys would be embarassed <TT>embarrassed </TT>to actually use these
words correctly, and so
<BR>you will continue abusing them despite my comments. Well, at least
I tried.
<BR>:-)</BLOCKQUOTE>
<TT>Ethanol is often more dangerous than it seems to be ...</TT><TT></TT>

<P><TT>John Fields</TT>
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 21 16:28:18 1999
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Subject: Re: Misuse of Words
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>Actually I'd like to improve my grammar and writing style.
>Any good on line tutorials?

I don't know if this is on-line, but I would suggest obtaining
a copy of "The Elements of Style" by Strunk & White.  It is a
slim volume.  It was the model for Kernighan & Plauger's "The
Elements of Programming Style."

r


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 21 17:23:02 1999
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Subject: Re: GEET plans available
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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I find this kind of humorous:

> Step 1 - Tools needed - pipe wrench, crescent wrench, spring tube benders,
> pipe cutter, pipe flaring tool, allen wrench, soldering equipment, file,
> and screw driver.

    and then...

> Step 3 - Take the 1"x1/2"x1/2" reducing tees and mount them on a 1" nipple
> (short pipe), and then using a lathe, machine the end smooth and fly cut [...]

Ok, so one more time: Step 1 - Tools needed - ***machine shop***, pipe
wrench, etc...

Cracks me up because I've bought stuff like that before "only a screwdriver
needed for assembly and installation" and the first line *after* you open
the box is something like "before assembly, precision mill and polish all
fitting surfaces to within .00001" accuracy..."

I still don't get where the steel rod goes (no cheap jokes please). It must
be inside the inner "reactor", but I can't see how it's held in place. A
simple diagram would sure be helpful. And which layer gets the exhaust and
which gets the fuel/air? Fuel/air to the inside, right? Can't tell that from
the page.

And I'm still waiting for Larry to tell us why he knows it "works". Ed tells
us it can run on gas, and that it can run on gas with some Pepsi in it. Ok,
well that is interesting (sincere thanks to Ed), and the magnetization of
the rod is certainly strange if not downright anomalous. But I'd like to
know if it really -  A: can run at twice the efficiency (or anything like
that), and B: run on urine, used motor oil, 'spoiled' diesel, and any other
hydrocarbon slop we might find lying about as per some of the claims I've
seen for this device. I don't think I'm being unreasonably skeptical here, I
really hope it works and there's some 'buzz' that it does. IF it does and Ed
has one or two of them, he must be working on some *really great* stuff to
be passing over a thorough testing of the GEET(s). You guys about to go
public with some sort of 100% reproducible, incontrovertible CF kit pretty
soon? <g>

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 21 17:35:21 1999
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Vortexians like Jed ought love this quote though, from the GEET website at

http://www.friend.ly.net/GEET/intro.htm

>  William M. Su, Ph.D., P.E., and his son Felix also spent some time at
> Paul's home, in Price, UT, and after spending 2 days at our shops, replied,
> "What you do in 12 inches with parts from hardware
> store, we "tried" to do in 7 mile circle, for billions of dollars,
> difference is YOURS WORKS!"

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 21 18:26:37 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Hydrino EUV: Fluorescent Sign Tubing
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:23:04 -0700
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This phosphor coated tubing should pick up Hydrino EUV fluorescence
using H2 and K  (Hg?) with a low pressure (6-10 millitorr) Electrodeless
Discharge.

 http://www.fmscorporation.com/index.htm

Regards,    Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 21 18:46:38 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
Message-ID: <0.233d1e7e.25411b89 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:44:41 EDT
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment
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In a message dated 10/19/99 11:18:00 PM, schaffermj yahoo.com writes:

"Hot fusioneers never heard of hydrinos, because Mills hasn't published in teh
mainstream. Hot fusioneers have never have looked for hydrinos, but they do a
lot of looking at their plasmas with spectroscopes of many kinds. Unexpected
and unexplained lines would have been noted, commented upon, and then made
the subject of intense further experimental and theoretical effort. That's
how science moves forward."

Mills has published three articles in FUSION TECHNOLOGY, with another one 
accepted, according to the BLP website.  Isn't FUSION TECHNOLOGY read by the 
hot fusion community?

Mills hasn't published in more prominent journals because they don't want to 
hear what he has to say.  They believe he has to be wrong, and they think 
that there's no point in publishing something that can't be right, even when 
it's backed by lots of experimental and observational evidence.

Do hot fusioneers have EUV spectroscopes?  Mills had to go to a lot of trouble
 to find and adapt one that could observe his relatively low-temperature 
plasmas, which are not fully ionized.

Mills has noted and commented upon unexpected and unexplained lines in 
laboratory experiments and astrophysical observations, and the reaction has 
been to sweep them under the rug.  That's how science sometimes fails to move 
forward.

I think that the hot fusioneers are overreacting to Mills' hydrinos, to the 
extent that they take any notice of them at all.  I don't think Mills' energy 
cells represent a threat to hot fusion funding.  Even if Mills can 
commercialize his process soon, plasma physics will remain a key field of 
research, and the world will still want fusion power eventually.  The world 
doesn't need ITER (the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor), 
because ITER would be far too radioactive, but it does need next-generation 
fusion programs, specifically, those using Helium-3 as fuel.

Hydrinos do threaten to shake up the the current structure of the hot fusion 
program, though, and that's always an unsettling prospect, no matter what 
one's field.

Tom Stolper

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----- Original Message -----
From: <Tstolper aol.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment

Tom Stolper wrote:
[Snip]
>
> Do hot fusioneers have EUV spectroscopes?  Mills had to go to a lot of
trouble
>  to find and adapt one that could observe his relatively low-temperature
> plasmas, which are not fully ionized.

I would think that the higher temperature spectral noise (500 ev and up)
would mask any hydrino formation spectra, unless you were looking for them.
>
> Mills has noted and commented upon unexpected and unexplained lines in
> laboratory experiments and astrophysical observations, and...

>
> Hydrinos do threaten to shake up the the current structure of the hot
fusion
> program, though, and that's always an unsettling prospect, no matter what
> one's field.

Most likely, when the real mechanism of Hydrino formation is understood,
both
Hot and Cold Fusion (Quantum Mechanical Tunneling) will finally be
understood
and both will move forward rapidly.

Regards,   Frederick
>
> Tom Stolper
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 21 20:02:12 1999
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If  I'm reading this GEET correctly, one should be able to take
scraps like potato peels, cabbage, turnips, lettuce, and
weeds, grass, and leaves, and puree them in a kitchen
blender, air dry and mix with the "hydrocarbon".

The exhaust gas "cracker" should do the rest. 

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 21 22:05:29 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: GEET & Thermal Cracking 
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 06:13:59 -0700
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A good Primer on Hydrocarbon Refining and how Thermal Cracking
of Gasoline or Heavier Hydrocarbons to Hydrogen (H2), Methane (CH4),
Ethane (C2H6), Propane (C3H8), and Benzene (C6H6) , 
all 100 + Octane and clean burning.

 http://www.aip.com.au/education/projects/pt_refining/

IOW, the GEET approach is an on-board thermal cracking unit
that produces fuels that cannot be conveniently distributed by big oil
for transportation use.   :-)

Blending biomass (~40% Carbon, balance chemical water) into this 
"Thermal Cracker" should work well.

Regards,  Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 22 06:30:22 1999
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:32:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Symbol for gravity
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	Is there a symbol for gravity?

	
					J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 22 06:37:56 1999
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 <v04011700b434e63df81c [207.8.127.239]>
 <v04011700b434e63df81c [207.8.127.239]>
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:33:24 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Misuse of Words
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[snip]

>
>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>> I realize that attempts to correct the usages of others are generally
>> fruitless, but this group has been flagrantly abusing a number of words
>> derived from Greek antecedents for a very long time, and so, for the
>record:
>>
>> (1) "Phenomena," "criteria," and "data" are plural. Thus when you say "a
>> phenomena," or "a criteria, or "data is," you misuse the words.
>
>I disagree. We speak English, not Greek. We should apply English rules to
>all words, regardless of origin.

***{"English rules," like "English words," originate in other
languages--all of them. Result: the attempt to apply this type of standard
would merely lead to endless disputes about whether a particular rule or
term has been used "long enough" by speakers of English to justify treating
it as a legitimate part of the language, and we would wind of with a
government review board telling us how to talk, as is presently the case in
France. It is precisely to avoid these sorts of endless and pointless
disputes that the ultimate arbiter of what is and is not correct in a
language has traditionally been typical usage as it appears in published
writings--i.e., so called "usage among the educated." Applying this
approach, lexicographers have traditionally taken a statistically based,
scientific approach: they examine the published writings of the time,
determine which usages are most popular therein, and treat those usages as
"correct." --Mitchell Jones}***

.   Borrow words should be treated with
>standard syntax, inflections, parts of speech and pronunciation. In
>English, "data" has evolved into a non-count noun, like "milk" or "sand."

***{"Data" and "datum" have been part of standard English usage for more
than a hundred years, and during that entire span of time, up to and
including the present, "datum" has been designated the singular form, and
"data" has been designated the plural form. Granted, in recent years the
traditional practice of determining best usage by a study of published
writings has begun to break down, due to the advent of the personal
computer. What has happened is that the costs of publishing have collapsed,
and vast numbers of individuals whose language skills are not up to
professional standards now find themselves in a position to either publish
their musings themselves, or to find a ready outlet in one of the
multitudinous "Zines" published by others. Indeed, with the advent of the
internet it has become possible for literally any speaker of English,
whatever his skill level, to publish his thoughts in that language, and put
them instantly before a potential audience of many tens of millions.
Result: an intense debate has arisen among lexicographers regarding *which*
published writings ought to be polled when usage data are being collected;
and, when the compilers of a particular dictionary have employed very lax
standards, or none at all, one can even find an occasional claim that "data
is" has now become acceptable! That, however, is patent nonsense, and, in
fact, I would advise anyone who is contemplating purchasing a dictionary to
eliminate from his list any publication which stoops to that level. The
reason: most people purchase a dictionary because they want to cull from
their vocabulary usages that will cause them to appear to be ignorant, and,
obviously, a dictionary which consults the ignorant to decide what is
"correct" will be of no use to them. Best usage should not be sought after
by examining what is vulgar and common, but by studying the writings of
people who write well. --Mitchell Jones}***

>We say "kimonos" with the plural inflection even though Japanese makes no
>distinction between numbers.

***{Irrelevant. I never claimed that English usage ought to be determined
by consulting with people who do not speak English. --MJ}***

[snip]

>
>- Jed

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   g, with a vector above it.

 as in  F = mg  (all vectors above F,g not shown)

 Get thee to a library and some physics texts ASAP.  ;-)X

    Mitchell Swartz



  At 09:32 AM 10/22/99 -0400, John Schnurer wrote:
>
>	Is there a symbol for gravity?
>
>	
>					J
>
>

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 Among this vortex of comments on words, something has bothered me 
for years is the mixing of Greek and Latin.  
Perhaps it can be corrected now.

  Which is correct?

    dipole   (as in dipole antennae )

or
    bipole  (as in bipolar disorder)


or both?

  Thanks for the help.

   Mitchell Swartz



At 08:33 AM 10/22/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>***{"English rules," like "English words," originate in other
>languages--all of them. Result: the attempt to apply this type of standard
>would merely lead to endless disputes about whether a particular rule or
>term has been used "long enough" by speakers of English to justify treating
>it as a legitimate part of the language, and we would wind of with a
>government review board telling us how to talk, as is presently the case in
>France. It is precisely to avoid these sorts of endless and pointless
>disputes that the ultimate arbiter of what is and is not correct in a
>language has traditionally been typical usage as it appears in published
>writings--i.e., so called "usage among the educated." Applying this
>approach, lexicographers have traditionally taken a statistically based,
>scientific approach: they examine the published writings of the time,
>determine which usages are most popular therein, and treat those usages as
>"correct." --Mitchell Jones}***


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 22 07:18:09 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
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John Schnurer asks:

	Is there a symbol for gravity?
	
Wile E. Coyote plunging off a cliff . . . or G. See: I. Frazier, "Coyote V.
Acme," (Farrar Straus & Giroux, 1996).

- Jed (AAAAaaaaaaaagggghhhh!!!!)

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Oh look! the cute furry cartoon fun loving side of Jed...
Whoda thought?

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> John Schnurer asks:
>
>         Is there a symbol for gravity?
>
> Wile E. Coyote plunging off a cliff . . . or G. See: I. Frazier, "Coyote V.
> Acme," (Farrar Straus & Giroux, 1996).
>
> - Jed (AAAAaaaaaaaagggghhhh!!!!)

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	Oh Oh ....?

	Have I started something ...?

	I always though Jed was OK.


On Sat, 23 Oct 1999, John Berry wrote:

> Oh look! the cute furry cartoon fun loving side of Jed...
> Whoda thought?
> 
> Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> > John Schnurer asks:
> >
> >         Is there a symbol for gravity?
> >
> > Wile E. Coyote plunging off a cliff . . . or G. See: I. Frazier, "Coyote V.
> > Acme," (Farrar Straus & Giroux, 1996).
> >
> > - Jed (AAAAaaaaaaaagggghhhh!!!!)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 22 08:22:03 1999
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:16:10 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Misuse of Words
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>>influences with which I am surrounded. For those of you who do *not* know
>>better, however, this should be a wake-up call. (Yeah, I know: it won't be.
>>You guys would be embarassed to actually use these words correctly, and so
>>you will continue abusing them despite my comments. Well, at least I tried.
>
>Actually I'd like to improve my grammar and writing style.
>Any good on line tutorials?

***{Good writing begins with an awareness of purpose. The goal of a writer
is to efficiently transfer a series of images from his mind to that of the
reader. Grammar, punctuation, spelling, vocabulary, and style are merely
means to that end, and should be chosen with it in mind. That means you
want to avoid "bad" usages not because they are bad per se, but because you
don't want your readers being diverted away from your intended stream of
images while they think about your grammar, or your spelling, or your
punctuation, etc. The best tutor, therefore, is someone who is skilled at
the craft of writing--someone who knows how to use words in ways that
provide precise control of the image stream. That means you should study
the techniques of good writers, and you should purchase a dictionary
compiled by lexicographers whose usage statistics were derived from a study
of good writing. Once you have a good dictionary, of course, you have to
use it--which means: when in doubt about a usage, look it up. (This is
obvious, but, unfortunately, most people are simply too lazy to do it.
Their dictionaries just sit on the shelf, unused, and their language skills
never improve.) --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>All through English Class in school I had two fundamental
>problems:
>
>A) I'm never going to need this stuff why am I wasting my
>time with it.  We've all been there in one subject or other.
>Now I'm starting to make my living doing it.  Fate is not
>with out its sense of irony it seems.
>
>B) I kept asking "Why?".  To which no teacher could give me
>a logical answer.  "Why does I before E except after C?  So
>thEIr!" as just one example [Yes I know there is more to
>that].  If your on this list I know you ask "Why?" a lot too
>[or is that to, or maybe two...lets just go with 2...].

***{The answer to all such questions is the same: the "correct" usage is
the one that will most efficiently convey the desired stream of images into
the mind of the reader. The spelling, grammar, punctuation, or terminology
which will most efficiently transfer those images--i.e., with the smallest
number of interruptions--is "correct," and anything else is "incorrect."
The best way to identify such usages is to study writers who are masters of
their craft, and, fortunately, they are easy to identify: they are simply
the guys whose presentations are easiest to follow. That means you don't
have to know what best usage is to recognize them, and, thus, permits you
to base judgments about best usage on a study of their writings. --Mitchell
Jones}***

>
>Spelling: See "The New Age of REASON" by John M.  Culkin, Science
>Digest-August 1981.
>
>"The English alphabet is pure insanity.  It can hardly spell any word in
>the language with any large degree of certainty.  ...The silliness of the
>English alphabet are quite beyond enumeration.  Where as the English
>orthography needs...simplifying, the English alphabet needs it two or
>three million times more." - Mark Twain.
>
>...an intelligent child who is bidden to spell "DEBT", and very properly
>spells it "D-E-T", is caned for not spelling it with a "B" because
>Julius Caesar spelled it with a "B".  - George Bernard Shaw.

***{Absolutely correct. However, until phonemic script becomes widely
accepted, if you spell "debt" as "det," you are going to jar your reader
out of the intended flow of images as soon as he comes to it. If you spell
it the normal way, on the other hand, the desired flow of images will *not*
be interrupted. Since that is what you, as a writer, want, you should use
the conventional spelling in any writing intended for an adult audience.

When writing for children who are just learning the mechanics of reading,
on the other hand, I advocate phonemic spelling, because it facilitates the
teaching process. Thus uw shud spel liek this for thee litul kids. :-) And,
of course, if such books begin to be published, then as the kids who used
them grow up, they will provide a market for those who use phonemic
spelling in more and more advanced material, until, finally, such texts
will be readily available in all subjects, and it will be possible to
dispatch conventional spelling into the great beyond, where it belongs.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>See also:"Alfubet F/\R hu Komput.r /_\j" (Titel is close has I could get
>in ASCII.) by John Culkin-Science Digest- August 1982.  "UNIFON, a
>phonetic alphabet that is five times more efficient than our ABC's, may
>revolutionize reading and writing-and help us communicate better with
>computers."  ..."Fans of Unifon don't want to wait another 3,000 years
>before eliminating the illogic from our language."   The UNIFON Alphabet
>(Trade mark) is by John Malone

***{True phonetic spelling would be too cumbersome for this purpose, since
the phonetic character set includes every sound element used in any
language, and numbers in the hundreds. What is needed is *phonemic*
spelling--that is, spelling based on assigning one symbol to each
contrastive unit of a language. In English, as I recall, this would require
about 35 characters. This can easily be accomplished without expanding the
Roman character set, by merely using two letters to distinguish among the
vowels. (For example, compare the "e" in "beet" to the "e" in "bet.")
--Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 22 08:41:47 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <199910212021775.SM00103 [192.168.0.2]>
Subject: Re: GEET plans available
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:41:29 -0400
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Rick,
>
> I still don't get where the steel rod goes (no cheap jokes please). It
must
> be inside the inner "reactor", but I can't see how it's held in place. A
> simple diagram would sure be helpful. And which layer gets the exhaust and
> which gets the fuel/air? Fuel/air to the inside, right? Can't tell that
from
> the page.

The steel rod is inside of a pipe that is welded into the exhaust manifold.
The exhaust streams around the pipe.  Thus, exhaust heat is captured in the
intake fuel vapor (which is not a new concept), which improves vaporization
and whatever else it does.

The rod is positioned in the middle of the pipe by beads that are welded
onto the sides of the rod near either end.  It constricts the cross
sectional area and that causes the vapor to be at low pressure in this area,
thus low temperature, which makes for an very effective heat transfer from
the exhaust vapor.  This lowering of temperature is not 'free', of course,
it takes work from the engine to pull that vacuum and the mass of fuel/air
that gets to the cylinder is less than it would be if it were running as a
normal engine.  Consequently, the engine cannot develop its rated power.

I was rather impressed by my visit to Pantone's place in Price, where he
demonstrated the running of a huge Wakausha engine-generator he had in his
backyard.  Once warmed up, the exhaust stream was incredibly clean.  I've
been around such large gasoline powered generators at FAA facilities a lot.
I know what the exhaust normally looks and smells like.  His exhaust was
cool and clean enough to stick your face into.

Reliable data on efficiency is hard to come by, and I would really like to
develop some, but the rod magnetization is much easier to investigate.  An
engine was hauled to Pennsylvania by the Pantone group, where it was tested.
I called and spoke with some people involved in the efficiency testing, who
were not GEET related.  They were unimpressed.  I then spoke with a GEET
person, who told me that the engine was not running well.

<snip>
> IF it does and Ed
> has one or two of them, he must be working on some *really great* stuff to
> be passing over a thorough testing of the GEET(s).

No comment.

>You guys about to go
> public with some sort of 100% reproducible, incontrovertible CF kit pretty
> soon? <g>

We are diverted into a large number of projects, and I am trying to get the
means to make progress.  Seriously upgrading the lab, installing a second
floor, and yes, trying to get product out the door.

Edward Wall
New Energy Research Laboratory
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822  fax (603) 224-5975
ewall infinite-energy.com  www.infinite-energy.com

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From: bpaddock csonline.net (Bob Paddock)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Misuse of Words
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:25:05 -0400
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>>See also:"Alfubet F/\R hu Komput.r /_\j" (Titel is close has I could get
>>in ASCII.) by John Culkin-Science Digest- August 1982.  "UNIFON, a
>>before eliminating the illogic from our language."   The UNIFON Alphabet

>***{True phonetic spelling would be too cumbersome for this purpose, since
>the phonetic character set includes every sound element used in any
>language

>spelling--that is, spelling based on assigning one symbol to each
>contrastive unit of a language. In English, as I recall, this would require
>about 35 characters.

Which is exactly what UNIFON is, consisting of forty
symbols or characters if you chose.

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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <010001bf1c41$6ba52420$f1441d26 fjsparber>
Subject: Re: Running GEET on Biomass
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:22:40 -0400
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Frederick,

I can't speak for Pantone, but he did tell me that he was able to run the
big Wakausha on 20% crude oil and 80% battery acid.  I don't remember him
trying to feed the 'dog' table scraps.

He did tell me that in certain instances, ice formed on the exhaust manifold
(no photos, too bad).

Edward Wall
New Energy Research Laboratory
Cold Fusion Technology, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
(603) 226-4822  fax (603) 224-5975
ewall infinite-energy.com  www.infinite-energy.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 11:55 PM
Subject: Re: Running GEET on Biomass


> If  I'm reading this GEET correctly, one should be able to take
> scraps like potato peels, cabbage, turnips, lettuce, and
> weeds, grass, and leaves, and puree them in a kitchen
> blender, air dry and mix with the "hydrocarbon".
>
> The exhaust gas "cracker" should do the rest.
>
> Regards,     Frederick
>
>

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From: bpaddock csonline.net (Bob Paddock)
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Subject: Re: Misuse of Words
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>>spelling--that is, spelling based on assigning one symbol to each
>>contrastive unit of a language. In English, as I recall, this would require
>>about 35 characters.
>
>Which is exactly what UNIFON is, consisting of forty
>symbols or characters if you chose.

For any one that is interested.

Unifon glyphs:
http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/csur/unifon.gif

ConScript Unicode Registry, Version 2.0
http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/csur/index.html
                E740-E76F UNIFON Proposal 1996-06-01; revision 1997-01-21
                http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/csur/unifon.html

Proposal 1996-06-01; revision 1997-01-21
Unifon was invented in 1959 by John Malone, an economist from Chicago. It is intended to facilitate the learning of English in first-language and second-language classes, and to be used as a pronunciation key in English dictionaries.
The letter names are the words chosen by Malone to indicate the sounds of the letters; thus UNIFON LETTER BOW represents the sound /b/.


Unifon is starting to be used in bilingual teaching.
http://alltheweb.com returns several such sites when
searching for "unifon".

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Subject: Re: Running GEET on Biomass
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At 12:22 PM 10/22/99 -0400, Ed Wall wrote:

>He did tell me that in certain instances, ice formed on the exhaust manifold
>(no photos, too bad).

He claimed that ice formed on the exhaust manifold of an operating internal
combustion engine!?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Running GEET on Biomass
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>At 12:22 PM 10/22/99 -0400, Ed Wall wrote:
>
>>He did tell me that in certain instances, ice formed on the exhaust manifold
>>(no photos, too bad).
>
>He claimed that ice formed on the exhaust manifold of an operating internal
>combustion engine!?

***{It sounds like alien nanotechnology to me! :-) --MJ}***

>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 22 12:57:25 1999
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Subject: Re: GEET plans available
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Ed -

> The rod is positioned in the middle of the pipe by beads that are welded
> onto the sides of the rod near either end.

Thanks, I must have missed that in the "plans".

<< IF it does and Ed has one or two of them,
<< he must be working on some *really great* stuff to
<< be passing over a thorough testing of the GEET(s).

 > No comment.

HA! I *knew* it.   ;)

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 22 13:10:55 1999
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Scott wrote:

> He claimed that ice formed on the exhaust manifold of an operating internal
> combustion engine!?

There's little question, as Frederick noted, that gassifying the intake
vapor with exhaust heat does do something and isn't at all a new idea. It is
all about "anomalous" stuff, or it's nothing. Transmutated elements, weird
heat (or cold), and that magnetized rod. And how could the rod become
*strongly* magnetized if something really unusual wasn't going on? So to me
it seems that the GEET is not just about that the fuel/air mix is being more
efficiently vaporized, it's that the intake flow is getting fundamentally
changed by being converted into some sort of highly electrified/magnetized
plasma, with all sorts of wierd & fun results, just as PP claims. Or not!
But that's the question. I like the magnetization as a key piece of initial
evidence because it's so in-yer-face and doesn't depend on equivocal
measurements everyone can dicker over forever. Seems to me that that alone,
a dramatically powerful but compact electro/mag generating Hilsch/Rankine
tube, ought to make everyone sit up straight.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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Yes, he did.  I was also incredulous.

I always maintain to him that he needs to have some credible data and
intended to provide same.  It is hard to separate probable hyperbole from
anomaly and maintain focus on data when there is so little of it.

Ed

----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, October 22, 1999 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: Running GEET on Biomass


> At 12:22 PM 10/22/99 -0400, Ed Wall wrote:
>
> >He did tell me that in certain instances, ice formed on the exhaust
manifold
> >(no photos, too bad).
>
> He claimed that ice formed on the exhaust manifold of an operating
internal
> combustion engine!?
>
>
>
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 22 14:44:04 1999
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Subject: Sansbury's experiments on the nature of light
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Vo -

Ralph Sansbury has done an experiment using short light pulses and fast
shutters that appears to show that light does not consist of some sort of
particles or wavicles hurtling through the void, but rather as an
instantaneous action at a distance that accumulates on a target. The delay
in registering this accumulation is seen as the "speed" of light between
emitter and receiver.

I think this goes to the discussion we had here recently where the emmission
and absorbtion characteristics of energy quanta are all we really see in our
electromagnetic world of sense, and we're "in the dark" about the nature of
things occuring between emission and absorbtion (detection). His experiment
casts some light on that mysterious area, and the results are not what most
people would think.

He's driving folks nuts over on the sci.physics.electromag and optics NGs.
Watching the skeptopaths foundering against the argument provided by an
<gasp> *actual experiment* is good fun.

http://www.bestweb.net/~sansbury/

psi.physics.electromag

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 22 14:54:57 1999
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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Subject: Re: Running GEET on Biomass
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Rick,

> And how could the rod become
> *strongly* magnetized if something really unusual wasn't going on?

I didn't claim that I observed what might be described as a strong field.  I
did observe apparent changing of the magnetization of the rod by reversing
the rod in the pipe and running it.  I do not see how any magnetization
could occur in the circumstances found here.  How would a flowing
non-ionized gas generate a field?  Of course, there is a magnetic field
associated with the engine's generator, but that is small and far removed
from the rod and hardly strong enough to produce the strength of the field
on the rod and associated manifold.

There are claims that credit cards were erased, but I had no such problem.
Of course, the one I worked on is pretty small.

Ed

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From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Ed -

> I didn't claim that I observed what might be described as a strong field.

No, but Pantone does. Vibrations from a running engine on an unmagnetized
rod while pointing magnetic north as Pantone says to do might give the rod
some magnetization. Could your different magnetization patterns after
changing it around be explained by the different magnetic environment of the
surrounding pipes relative to the new alignment? Vibration might create new
magnetic patterns based on the magnetic fields of the magnetized iron in the
surrounding apparatus.

Pantone says it took both hands to pull a wrench off one of the gizmos.
*That's* not a field that would form from engine vibration on a ferrous rod
pointing north. But like the ice on the exhaust, this claim seems to be with
Pantone only, and not others. But there may have been a witness claimed for
the wrench incident, I'm not sure.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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Subject: Re: Sansbury's experiments on the nature of light
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>Vo -
>
>Ralph Sansbury has done an experiment using short light pulses and fast
>shutters that appears to show that light does not consist of some sort of
>particles or wavicles hurtling through the void, but rather is an
>instantaneous action at a distance that accumulates on a target. The delay
>in registering this accumulation is seen as the "speed" of light between
>emitter and receiver.

***{I would guess that Sansbury is misinterpreting his own data. If the
transmission delay of photons were merely due to time of registration of
the signal at the receiving end--i.e., if transit velocity were
instantaneous--then photons would take no longer to cross the solar system
than to cross the street. But we know that to be false, based on the
progressively increasing transmission delays to and from deep space probes,
as they move away from Earth. --MJ}***

[snip]

>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

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From: "Ed Wall" <ewall infinite-energy.com>
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Rick,

> No, but Pantone does. Vibrations from a running engine on an unmagnetized
> rod while pointing magnetic north as Pantone says to do might give the rod
> some magnetization. Could your different magnetization patterns after
> changing it around be explained by the different magnetic environment of
the
> surrounding pipes relative to the new alignment?

Not easily.  I had the rod orthogonal to the Earth's field during these
tests.  It was strong enough to rotate a compass needle adjacent to it.

>Vibration might create new
> magnetic patterns based on the magnetic fields of the magnetized iron in
the
> surrounding apparatus.

I just checked that rod with a magnetometer and found that the field
strength is on the order of the Earth's field strength, which is weaker than
I expected, and supports that field as the source of the rod's
magnetization.  The rod still that quirky field reversal at about midpoint.
It could be that half the rod exceeded the Curie point and cooled with a
field imposed by the surrounding steel.  A problem with that is that the
surrounding steel (the inner pipe) would be quite a bit hotter than the rod,
becuase it is in the exhaust stream, which is a lot hotter than the fuel
vapor.  The next layer of steel would be the exhaust manifold, and that is
probably an inch away from the rod.  The field associated with that is as
weak as the one on the rod, so it is hard to see how it could be the cause
of the changed field on the rod.
>
> Pantone says it took both hands to pull a wrench off one of the gizmos.
> *That's* not a field that would form from engine vibration on a ferrous
rod
> pointing north. But like the ice on the exhaust, this claim seems to be
with
> Pantone only, and not others. But there may have been a witness claimed
for
> the wrench incident, I'm not sure.

I remember hearing about that.  Pretty bizarre.

Ed Wall

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WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 22 Oct 99   Washington, DC

1. POLYGRAPH: SENATE CALLS ON NIH TO EXAMINE POLYGRAPH VALIDITY. 
A Sense of the Senate resolution attached to the Labor, HHS
Appropriations Bill calls on NIH to investigate the validity of
the polygraph as a screening tool. A 1983 study by the Office of
Technology Assessment found little evidence to support such
applications.  A letter from Senator Jeff Bingaman (D-NM)to NIH
Director Harold Varmus notes that polygraphy is based on theories
of psychophysiological phenomena that are "within the technical
expertise of the NIH."  NIH is asked to initiate and support a
study by the National Academy of Sciences updating the 1983 OTA
study.  Meanwhile, DOE Secretary Bill Richardson, feeling the
heat from the labs, has scaled back the testing plan from some
5,000 weapons scientists to about 1,000 people in sensitive jobs. 
However, if the polygraph doesn't work, no one should be tested.

2. BUDGET: PRESIDENT SIGNS THE VA/HUD/IA APPROPRIATIONS BILL. 
The final deal negotiated on a bipartisan basis between the White
House and Congress, restored the science cuts made by the House
(WN 10 Sep 99). The NASA budget is actually increased $100M over
the request after being cut $1B by the House. NSF is up 6.5% over
last year, mostly for Information Technology and biocomplexity.

3. MIR: RUSSIA WANTS SHUTTLE TO RETRIEVE "VALUABLE" EQUIPMENT.
The 11.5 tons (yes, NASA used "tons") of stuff, valued at about a
billion dollars by the Russians, would be used on the Russian ISS
modules.  Does it seem likely that the US would agree to send a
shuttle to pick up outdated equipment that cost about as much as
a shuttle flight?  Meanwhile, a group of US entrepreneurs
proposes to use a 7 kilometer electrodynamic tether to save Mir,
though it's not clear where the electric power would come from.
In the past, attempts to deploy tethered satellites have been a
source of embarrassment for NASA (WN 11 Mar 94 and WN 1 Mar 96).

4. CELLULAR PHONES: 20/20 REVIVES THE BRAIN CANCER CONTROVERSY. 
It began in 1993 when a Florida man brought suit against cellular
phone companies after his wife died of brain cancer. "She talked
on the thing all the time and held it against her head," he said
on Larry King Live (WN  29 Jan 93).  That was the extent of the
evidence and a federal judge threw out the claim two years later
(WN 26 May 95).  Wednesday night, ABC News 20/20, in what Diane
Sawyer called "the report everyone will be talking about," asked
its own experts.  They were familiar to anyone who followed the
power-line controversy.  The editor of Microwave News, Louis
Slesin, was repeatedly referred to as "Dr. Slesin."  Doctor of
what?  Reached by phone this morning, he would not say. However,
WN has confirmed that Slesin's PhD is in "Urban Studies and
Planning."  We don't know if "everyone is talking about" the
20/20 report, but Nokia, a major cell phone maker mentioned on
the program, went up 8 points on the NY Stock Exchange.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

--------------6E563090F2F558D40909B076--

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Mitchell -


> ***{I would guess that Sansbury is misinterpreting his own data. If the
> transmission delay of photons were merely due to time of registration of
> the signal at the receiving end--i.e., if transit velocity were
> instantaneous--then photons would take no longer to cross the solar system
> than to cross the street. But we know that to be false, based on the
> progressively increasing transmission delays to and from deep space probes,
> as they move away from Earth. --MJ}***

The claim is that the time needed to accumulate to a detection event is
proportional to distance. This equates to the speed of light for "photons"
in a general sense. The implication is that nothing flies across either the
solar system or the street, i.e., we don't need photons. Sansbury thinks
photons hurtling through the void is a concept in violation of Occam.

Again, he claims that instantly energy begins accumulating at the distant
target the moment light emerges from the emitter. But *detection* at the
target will not occur until d/c later in the emitter's reference frame -
under normal circumstances. Sansbury's setup does an end run around normal
circumstances, which is what any good experiment is supposed to do. He
interrupts the normal accumulation process before detection would ordinarily
occur, and registers the effect of that interruption.

It helps me to think of it as a sort of double-slit experiment laid out in
the time domain along the beam travel line rather than spatially in a plane
normal to the beam as it is usually done.

I don't know for sure if his experiment is being run in a perfectly valid
manner, but if it is good, I don't know how it could be misinterpreted.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 20:08:35 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Cryptic Calculations
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>>***{Looking conversion factors up in a table is fine for a person who
>>already moves smoothly and easily back and forth between metric and English
>>units, but I think it is better for the novice to calculate such things.
>
>Can you or some one tell me why in the in English/Metric
>conversion, we are always converting Pounds to Kilograms and
>vica-versa?
>
>The Pound is a unit of Weight in the English System.  The
>Kilogram is a unit of Mass in the Metric System.
>
>In the English System the Slug is the unit of Mass, and in
>the Metric System the Newton is the unit of Weight.
>
>I never see any one converting Slugs to Kilograms, or
>Newtons to Pounds?
>
>Most conversion factors found in tables for Pounds to Kilograms/K to P
>only apply on Earth... :-)

***{This is a can of worms because there are, in fact, two English systems
of units, not one:

(1) In the poundal variant of the system, the poundal is the unit of force.
The pound is the unit of mass and is defined as equal to .45359237 kg,
whereas the poundal is defined as the force required to give a 1-lb mass an
acceleration of 1 ft/sec^2.

(2) In the slug variant of the system, the pound is the unit of force. The
slug is the unit of mass and is defined as the mass which experiences an
acceleration of 1 ft/sec^2 when acted on by a 1 lb force. Since "a pound of
force" is defined, within this system, as the force Earth's gravity exerts
on a 1 lb mass at sea level, and since that force produces an acceleration
of 32.174 ft/sec^2, it follows that a slug must be equivalent to a 32.174
lb mass as defined within (2), above.

Bottom line: strictly speaking, when we say that 1 kg = 2.2 lbs, we are
using the pound as a unit of mass, as per (1), above.

If you are still confused, welcome to the club. I have to think my way
carefully through this issue each time the question is raised, and, believe
me, it is raised often. The difficulty, I think, is due to the fact that
the English system *evolved*--which means: it was not the result of
conscious design by one man or a small group of men, and, as a result, it
is simply *untidy*, in much the same way that human languages tend to be
untidy.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>
>--
>For information on any of the following check out my WEB site at:
>                   http://www.biogate.com/bpaddock/
>Chemical Free Air Conditioning/No CFC's, Chronic Pain Relief, Echofone,
>Electromedicine, Electronics, Explore!, Free Energy, Full Disclosure,
>KeelyNet, Matric Limited, Neurophone, Oil City PA, Philadelphia Experiment.
>                         http://www.uCOS-II.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 22 18:37:08 1999
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 20:33:18 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Sansbury's experiments on the nature of light
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>Mitchell -
>
>
>> ***{I would guess that Sansbury is misinterpreting his own data. If the
>> transmission delay of photons were merely due to time of registration of
>> the signal at the receiving end--i.e., if transit velocity were
>> instantaneous--then photons would take no longer to cross the solar system
>> than to cross the street. But we know that to be false, based on the
>> progressively increasing transmission delays to and from deep space probes,
>> as they move away from Earth. --MJ}***
>
>The claim is that the time needed to accumulate to a detection event is
>proportional to distance. This equates to the speed of light for "photons"
>in a general sense. The implication is that nothing flies across either the
>solar system or the street, i.e., we don't need photons. Sansbury thinks
>photons hurtling through the void is a concept in violation of Occam.

***{I get it: the energy simply vanishes into nothing at the source and
leaps back into existence again at the receiver, in violation of the
principle of continuity! Unfortunately, as I noted the other day, the
principle of continuity is part of the foundation upon which the entire
structure of human knowledge rests. If it is wrong, or even if it *may* be
wrong, then we have no basis for believing in the existence of anything,
including Sansbury, or his experiment, or his interpretation of his
experiment. (It's real sad! :-) --MJ}***

>
>Again, he claims that instantly energy begins accumulating at the distant
>target the moment light emerges from the emitter. But *detection* at the
>target will not occur until d/c later in the emitter's reference frame -
>under normal circumstances. Sansbury's setup does an end run around normal
>circumstances, which is what any good experiment is supposed to do. He
>interrupts the normal accumulation process before detection would ordinarily
>occur, and registers the effect of that interruption.
>
>It helps me to think of it as a sort of double-slit experiment laid out in
>the time domain along the beam travel line rather than spatially in a plane
>normal to the beam as it is usually done.
>
>I don't know for sure if his experiment is being run in a perfectly valid
>manner, but if it is good, I don't know how it could be misinterpreted.

***{An "explanation" which pulls down the entire structure of human
knowledge, including itself, is the antithesis of explanation in my book.
Whatever the correct interpretation of the Sansbury data may be, this is
not it. I guess I will have to check out the url you posted (i.e.,
http://www.bestweb.net/~sansbury/), and see if I can come up with an
alternative framework. Thanks for expanding on your original post.  --MJ}***

>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:57:22 -1000
Subject: Re: Sansbury's experiments on the nature of light
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Mitchell -

> ***{I get it: the energy simply vanishes into nothing at the source and
> leaps back into existence again at the receiver, in violation of the
> principle of continuity!

I must admit I've never heard of the principle of continuity, but who ever
said the process Sansbury describes isn't continuous? It *is* action at a
distance though. I can also visualize it, though with much difficulty, by
the notion that influence of the waving charges at A already exists at the
target B as a probability function which is only realized fully, or
"collapsed" to some distinct and detectable value at d/c time later. Mess
with it's propagation path at any time in the transaction from emission to
absorbsion, and it will skew that probablility (it's value) is some
observable way.

It seems to me that it may be the traditional view of a photon flying
through space that tends to generate a violation of the principle of
continuity if I understand that phrase correctly (I probably don't), and
sometimes creates problems for CoE too.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 05:36:52 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Hi,

See the innocent magnetic field in a closer look.

Abstract:
http://jjap.kopas.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle?magazine=JJAP&volume=38&number=10B&page=L1201-L1203

Paper:
http://jjap.kopas.co.jp/journal/pdf/JJAP-38-10B/L1201.pdf
or
http://jjap.kopas.co.jp/journal/html/JJAP-38-10B/L1201/

Free registration is required. (I did)

Regards, 

hamdi ucar

Jpn. J. Appl. Phys. Vol.38(1999) pp.L1201-L1203 
Part 2, No. 10B, 15 October 1999 

Effects of Magnetic Field on Metabolic Action in the
Peripheral Tissue 

Tatsyuki Kawakubo, Kazue Yamauchi and Takashi Kobayashi 

Faculty of Engineering, Toin University of Yokohama,1614 Kurogane-cho, Aoba-ku, Yokohama 225-8502, Japan 
(Received August 6, 1999 ; accepted for publication August 25, 1999 ) 

Abstract:

The effect of magnetic field on metabolic action in the peripheral tissue was examined in 12 subjects by measuring skin temperature with a thermographic tracer and the binding ratio of oxygen to hemoglobin using an apparatus for detecting concentrations o

f oxyhemoglobin and deoxyhemoglobin. The skin temperature was found to increase by 0.4-1.2°C after a 5-min exposure to a magnetic field of 0.45 or 1.2 T. The binding ratio of oxygen showed a rapid decrease with application of magnetic field, which indica

ted the release of oxygen from hemoglobin.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 22 21:02:12 1999
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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 21:00:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment
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Tstolper aol.com wrote:

>schaffermj yahoo.com writes:
> 
>"Hot fusioneers never heard of hydrinos, because Mills hasn't published in
>teh mainstream. Hot fusioneers have never have looked for hydrinos, but 
>they do a lot of looking at their plasmas with spectroscopes of many kinds.
>Unexpected and unexplained lines would have been noted, commented upon, 
>and then made the subject of intense further experimental and theoretical 
>effort. That's how science moves forward."
> 
>Mills has published three articles in FUSION TECHNOLOGY, with another one 
>accepted, according to the BLP website.  Isn't FUSION TECHNOLOGY read by
>the hot fusion community?

Actually, not many of us read FUSION TECHNOLOGY (FT). It is not one of the
leading journals for in the fusion energy research fields.

Mills published his articles back when FT was not reviewing anomalous energy
articles strictly. I heard via a colleague who claimed to have been involved
with some of the ANS (Am. Nuclear Society, publishers of FT) activities, that
ANS intervened to raise the standards of FT. Even so, I don't know of any of
my colleagues that reads the back section of FT where cold fusion and other
such papers occasionally appear.

>Do hot fusioneers have EUV spectroscopes?  

Yes, we sure do, and lots of other spectroscopes, too. Spectroscopes of many
kinds are basic tools (necessary, but not sufficient) to study plasmas.

>Mills has noted and commented upon unexpected and unexplained lines in 
>laboratory experiments and astrophysical observations, and the reaction has
>been to sweep them under the rug.

I read a few of the papers on plasmas (those I could get quickly) cited on
Mills' web pages a couple of years ago. Mills' comments showed me that he
didn't understand the papers.

>but it does need next-generation fusion programs, specifically, those using
>Helium-3 as fuel.

I agree, and in this I am in a minority among my peers. But then, I hang out
on Vortex, too! Deuterium-Helium-3 fusion is about 100 times harder than
deuterium-tritium (DT) fusion. That's kind of daunting. We don't know if it
is practically possible or not, yet. We do know that we already know enough
to do DT fusion, albeit not efficiently enough to make it pay.

=====
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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On Fri, 22 Oct 1999, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> The claim is that the time needed to accumulate to a detection event is
> proportional to distance. This equates to the speed of light for "photons"
> in a general sense. The implication is that nothing flies across either the
> solar system or the street, i.e., we don't need photons. Sansbury thinks
> photons hurtling through the void is a concept in violation of Occam.


Oooo.  This is weirding me out.  The stuff that started boiling out of my
brain during a recent occurrence of "too little sleep mode" dovetails with
Sansbury's assertion.  <Sheer speculation mode activated!>   :)


Suppose an atom emits a quantum of light.  According to conventional QM,
that light travels as an expanding spherical wavetrain.  Think "glass
onion."  If a distant atom absorbs it, then a QM-event occurs wherein
the entire wavetrain, everywhere in the universe, winks out of existence
simultaneously.  The wavetrain could be light-years in diameter, yet if
that wavetrain is associated with just one photons-worth of EM energy,
then the whole wavetrain must be absorbed by the atom which ate the
photon. ( This is simply the well-known Bell/Aspect/EPR stuff, where
'wavefunction collapse' must be instantaneous when the photon interacts
at a point in space. ) 

But look at this:

  PHOTON DIES SCREAMING (photon-less EM waves)
  http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/freenrg/sukdynam.html

  ENERGY-SUCKING ANTENNAS
  http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/tesla/tesceive.html

What if atoms have a habit of going "snap" when they are illuminated with
single-frequency oscillating EM fields?  Suppose Sansbury is right, and it
takes a certain amount of illumination-time before an atom's internal
resonance can build up to the point where it "eats" some energy.  In that
case, the brighter the light, the faster the atom would respond.  But
wait... what if each atom did not respond to the light in general, but
instead responded to the incredibly narrow frequency band of a SINGLE
distant atom?  If the "Q-factor" of a receiving atom is infinite, then it
can only repond to waves which are an absolutely perfect match for the
frequency of the atom's internal tuned circuit. This might mean that atoms
do not couple to "light", but instead they couple to individual distant
atoms which happen to have the same frequency (or happen to have the same
3-D doppler shift vector.)  In that case the delay before reception would
depend on the distance between the emitter and receiver (this assumes that
a single atom can only emit a particular constant level of light-flux.)

If true, and if we next add to the mix the "apparent photons" demonstrated
by conventional QM experiments, then it looks like pairs of atoms must be
in some sort of instantaneous communication, because in order to mimic
photons, the "sending" atom has to know when the "receiving" atom has
swallowed some energy, and then it has to instantaneously inform all other
entangled atoms of this fact.  According to this bizarre description, we
would say that energy is conserved because "apparent photons" are
conserved.  The atoms APPEAR to have exchanged a particle, but instead the
transmitter-atom has lost its EM vibration, and the receiver-atom has
gained the same amount.  And, because the atoms are paired in an
instantaneous communication-entanglement, the transmitter is told that it
has lost energy at the same moment that the receiver wakes up and performs
the "energy sucking antenna" process. 


> Again, he claims that instantly energy begins accumulating at the distant
> target the moment light emerges from the emitter. But *detection* at the
> target will not occur until d/c later in the emitter's reference frame -
> under normal circumstances. 

Right.  If atoms are like RLC resonators, then they would act inert when
first illuminated, and would only wake up and perform a photonlike
interaction after they had begun to "ring" slightly. 


> Sansbury's setup does an end run around normal
> circumstances, which is what any good experiment is supposed to do. He
> interrupts the normal accumulation process before detection would ordinarily
> occur, and registers the effect of that interruption.

Might this be on www anywhere, or only described in newsgroups?



> It helps me to think of it as a sort of double-slit experiment laid out in
> the time domain along the beam travel line rather than spatially in a plane
> normal to the beam as it is usually done.

The abhorrent part of Sansbury's idea is that, if the speed of EM is
infinite, then there is no such thing as a light wave, and the
"wavelength" concept becomes meaningless.  How can we then explain wave
mechanics?  Why would microwave resonators have the size they do?  How
could we hope to explain the RF standing waves which array themselves
between reflectors?  Microwave ovens would lack hotspots!  And holography
makes sense only if light behaves as spherical wavetrains which resemble
expanding, concentrically-layered balls of E and M flux.


> I don't know for sure if his experiment is being run in a perfectly valid
> manner, but if it is good, I don't know how it could be misinterpreted.

Rather than using light, I wonder what would happen with electrical pulses
in long spools of coax cable?  It should be easy to use logic gates to
produce short pulses, and to make/break connections between the wires.
(Wasn't the Keelynet crowd once leaping on this as an anomalous
phenomenon, the "firefly circuit" I think it was?)  For that matter,
similar things might be done with long lengths of fiber optic cable. 


My earlier idea (weeks ago) was that the xmit/rcv atom-pairs are in
instantaneous 'entanglement', but that ALSO there are electromagnetic
waves flying between them.  Therefor, one transmitter-atom could
illuminate a number of other receiver-atoms, but when one of those other
atoms finally goes "snap" and experiences a photon-like event, the
transmitter-atom then tells all the other receiver-atoms, "never mind",
and they must lose their partial-photons at the same instant that the
receiver-atom has aquired one complete photon.  We still would have
"wavefunction collapse", but it would be associated with the instantaneous
communication between entangled atoms.  (More like Bearden's phase
conjugate mirror ideas.)

If this is how things work, then light would travel at c, and waves would
have wavelength, but there would also be an instantaneous "entanglement
signal" which follows the waves, bounces off mirrors and is deflected by
lenses, etc.  High speed choppers would alter the entanglement
communication channel between atoms, and might make the in-transit light
waves vanish from space and their energy be restored to the transmitting
atom (or might make the receiving atom lose its priority in the queue, and
some other atom being illuminated by the same wavetrain would then have a
chance to build up resonance and grab a quantum of EM vibration.) 

Why would EM work like that?  Well, it certainly isn't any more bizarre
than Copenhagan Interpretation and Schrodinger's Cat.  It requires that
all "resonant" atoms be in instantaneous communication, like a computer
network, where the atoms use the fast channels to "agree" to produce the
illusion of energy conservation, and to produce the illusion that
particles are being exchanged at velocity c, at the same time that the
atoms are are responding to waves of "field vibration" which propagate at
a finite velocity.  It's QM based on resonant circuits rather than on
particle exchange.

I vaguely remember something about a "delayed choice Aspect experiment"
where similar things occured (where light waves in transit would seem to
be expunged retroactively when the shutters were changed.)  Anyone
remember more?


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
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On Fri, 22 Oct 1999, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> It seems to me that it may be the traditional view of a photon flying
> through space that tends to generate a violation of the principle of
> continuity if I understand that phrase correctly (I probably don't), and
> sometimes creates problems for CoE too.

Here's a description of the "Wheeler Delayed Choice" experiment... and
also a "crackpot physics" paper from a UW physicist, wherein time-reversed
electromagnetic waves connect all parts of the experiment together!

  http://mist.npl.washington.edu/tiqm/TI_40.html#4.2

  The Transactional Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics
  http://mist.npl.washington.edu/tiqm/TI_toc.html


If there were high-speed optical choppers placed in the beam paths of the
delayed-choice experiment, I wonder if the outcome would be affected.


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William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Running GEET on Biomass
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 16:39:14 +1000
Organization: Improving
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On Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:55:08 -0400, Ed Wall wrote:
[snip]
>I didn't claim that I observed what might be described as a strong field.  I
>did observe apparent changing of the magnetization of the rod by reversing
>the rod in the pipe and running it.  I do not see how any magnetization
[snip]
Hi Ed,

I noticed that in his free plans, PP mentions that reversing the rod
will cause the motor not to work properly. This would seem to imply that
whatever is creating the magnetisation is also stimulated by it. IOW
there is a positive feedback mechanism. If so, then the longer a rod is
in use, the more strongly it should become magnetised, and also the
better it should work. It might be interesting to start off with a rod
that has been strongly magnetised before use.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 23 01:52:55 1999
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It just seemed out of character,
He normally seems a bit more self serious...



John Schnurer wrote:

>         Oh Oh ....?
>
>         Have I started something ...?
>
>         I always though Jed was OK.
>
> On Sat, 23 Oct 1999, John Berry wrote:
>
> > Oh look! the cute furry cartoon fun loving side of Jed...
> > Whoda thought?
> >
> > Jed Rothwell wrote:
> >
> > > John Schnurer asks:
> > >
> > >         Is there a symbol for gravity?
> > >
> > > Wile E. Coyote plunging off a cliff . . . or G. See: I. Frazier, "Coyote V.
> > > Acme," (Farrar Straus & Giroux, 1996).
> > >
> > > - Jed (AAAAaaaaaaaagggghhhh!!!!)
> >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 23 02:22:52 1999
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A thought on magnetization of the rod.

The welding current developed while putting the spacer "beads"
on the rod would magnetize it, no?  D.C. welder   x amperes?

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 23 03:03:48 1999
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From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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William Beaty wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 22 Oct 1999, Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> > The claim is that the time needed to accumulate to a detection event is
> > proportional to distance. This equates to the speed of light for "photons"
> > in a general sense. The implication is that nothing flies across either the
> > solar system or the street, i.e., we don't need photons. Sansbury thinks
> > photons hurtling through the void is a concept in violation of Occam.
> 

I forgot everything and propose this experiment:

Illuminate a fast bullet on its path (as done with high speed photography) with a short pulse (nS to Fs's) of strobe spot or with a laser beam, or with a continuos beam. If there were any delay, bullet will reflect the light elsewhere or can not reflect i

t at all because not enough time to collect it.

Even you dont have such a high tech equipment (may lasers and strobes were not available at the time of the invention of this idea), just illuminate the bullet by a candle light passing trough a narrow fence.

Internet propagate ideas indiscriminately, whether they are wise or the contrary.

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 23 03:06:33 1999
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Subject: Re: Energy-sucking Sansbury
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Bill -

> The abhorrent part of Sansbury's idea is that, if the speed of EM is
> infinite, then there is no such thing as a light wave, and the
> "wavelength" concept becomes meaningless.

Apparently it's pretty easy to slip into the more normal way of thinking
about this. According to RS's idea, while the underlying cause and effect of
EM transmission may occur instantly, it's effects, at least all practical
direct effects, are still "propagated" at c or less, and most conventional
descriptions and formulas should still hold.

> Rather than using light, I wonder what would happen with electrical pulses
> in long spools of coax cable?

Won't work - at least I don't think so. I think we are talking about what is
the real nature of a fundamental jump of energy quanta through the *void*
between two elements: a pure transmitter and a pure receiver. In a cable,
these elements are molecules apart in a long chain of trillions of links
where each element becomes a retransmitter after receiving, and that would
completely smear these results out the perfectly conventional. We can't
time-slice light speed a molecular distances to see what's happening.
Sansbury used 29 and 34 feet of sort-of vacuum: air.

On the NG, someone wants to try to replicate Sansbury with optical fibers,
but RS thinks that they can't be coiled and need to be straight. I even
think he's coming up a little bit short here - I think it does need to be in
a vacuum, or at least just air. Even air may be smearing the results a
little bit. I think they should really only want to look first at the case
of two discrete elements communicating through air/vacuum.

> My earlier idea (weeks ago) was that the xmit/rcv atom-pairs are in
> instantaneous 'entanglement', but that ALSO there are electromagnetic
> waves flying between them.  Therefor, one transmitter-atom could
> illuminate a number of other receiver-atoms, but when one of those other
> atoms finally goes "snap" and experiences a photon-like event, the
> transmitter-atom then tells all the other receiver-atoms, "never mind",
> and they must lose their partial-photons at the same instant that the
> receiver-atom has aquired one complete photon.  We still would have
> "wavefunction collapse", but it would be associated with the instantaneous
> communication between entangled atoms.  (More like Bearden's phase
> conjugate mirror ideas.)

I don't know about that. I still think it might just be simpler to eliminate
all the middle-men. That seems to be Sansbury's approach.

A skeptical objection that seems to have people on both sides scratching
their heads a bit is that you can point a telescope at a star and
immediately begin seeing light. They say that if Sansbury's right, you'd
have to sit behind your telescope for 26 years, for instance, to see light
from Vega since your telescope was 'off' all the while 26 years worth of
light was flying towards you. I think this might have something to do with a
steady state source versus pulses. In fact the part of Sansbury's experiment
that worked best was when he closed the previously open gate on the
photodiode just before light hits it, and he still gets a good 50% light
signature!

But if Sansbury's right this *has* to be making its presence known all over
the place in some way. Maybe the light from Vega is just infinitesimally
dimmer when you first start to look at it, and if you stared at it for 26
years, it would slowly come up to full brightness. Or maybe -  what if it
wasn't really made dimmer by this effect, but was being made to carry less
energy by being down shifted towards red, and the amount of this "shift" was
proportional to the distance between the emitter and receiver.   :)

Here's Sansbury's web site again:

http://www.bestweb.net/~sansbury/

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 23 04:08:07 1999
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Ed Wall stated that PP ran the GEET on " 20% Crude Oil-80% Battery Acid".

That's interesting, because the ash in crude can run several percent alkali
cations
such as Potassium and Sodium which will form K2SO4 or Na2SO4:

K2CO3 + H2SO4 --->  K2SO4 + CO2 + H2O

which will volatize in the "plasma" to K+ or Na+ ions and catalyze the
formation
of  Hydrinos from the Hydrogen split off in the Thermal Cracking of the
Crude.   :-)

Above 800 F the H2O  (and O2) will react with the carbon residues or crude
oil fragments (free radicals) forming alcohols etc., and act like a
self-cleaning oven:

CH3* + H2O ----> CH3OH   (methanol) + H

C + H2O ---->     CO + 2 H

or 2 C + O2 --->   2 CO

Even in heavy fuel oil (or bottoms)the ash can get up to ~0.2% and more.

Regards,    Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 23 04:27:57 1999
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At 09:00 PM 10/22/99 -0700, Michael Schaffer wrote:

>Actually, not many of us read FUSION TECHNOLOGY (FT). It is not one of the
>leading journals for in the fusion energy research fields.
>
>Mills published his articles back when FT was not reviewing anomalous energy
>articles strictly. I heard via a colleague who claimed to have been involved
>with some of the ANS (Am. Nuclear Society, publishers of FT) activities, that
>ANS intervened to raise the standards of FT. Even so, I don't know of any of
>my colleagues that reads the back section of FT where cold fusion and other
>such papers occasionally appear.



   The articles have not been in the "back" for years, and some issues
have several articles.  

   Please list the journals on fusion which "many of (you)" do read.

    Mitchell Swartz


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Mitchell Jones wrote:

If it [principle of continuity] is wrong, or even if it *may* be
wrong, then WE HAVE NO BASIS FOR BELIEVING IN THE EXISTENCE OF ANYTHING,
including Sansbury, or his experiment, or his interpretation of his
experiment. (It's real sad! :-) --MJ}***

Hi Mitchell,

How is the principle of continuity required to "believe", along
with Democritus, that "All that exists are atoms and the void ..."?

Jack Smith


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 23 04:38:57 1999
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According to my calculations, Muscatel or "White Lightning" with 
about 0.05 molar K2CO3 dissolved in it, should form Hydrinos (in situ) 
and blow the heads off the GEET.   :-)

Regards,    Frederick

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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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Subject: BBGB  Sansbury
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	Dear Vo.,


	Anyone have REAL description of Sansbury experimental set up?

	For my thinking it is a moot issue until the experimental set up
is at he very  LEAST described.

	Some "experiments" give a "real answer" as calculated and inferred
from nearby events.


					J

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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: THUMP.....   and gravity....
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	Dear Vo, and Jed,

	When the coyote [kay-oot] impacts the Earth .... What happens to
all the energy... it should have a profound effect, emission of photons
and so on.... but there is only a small amount of smoke or dust. The
KO seems OK


_______________________________________

	Is there a symbol for Gravity?




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>***{I get it: the energy simply vanishes into nothing at the source and
>leaps back into existence again at the receiver, in violation of the
>principle of continuity!

Continuity??  What about Synchroncity?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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Robin,

If we arrange for a testbed where emissions, power output and fuel
consumption rate are all rigorously monitored, an excellent parameter to
vary would be the magnetization of the rod.  For the time being, the best
that can be done is to try to eliminate ordinary sources for such
magnetization.

I noticed no change in performance when the rod was reversed.  Of course, I
was only using my senses to form that observation.

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc., P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
voice: (603) 226-4822    fax: (603) 224-5975
website: www.infinite-energy.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 1999 2:39 AM
Subject: Re: Running GEET on Biomass


> On Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:55:08 -0400, Ed Wall wrote:
> [snip]
> >I didn't claim that I observed what might be described as a strong field.
I
> >did observe apparent changing of the magnetization of the rod by
reversing
> >the rod in the pipe and running it.  I do not see how any magnetization
> [snip]
> Hi Ed,
>
> I noticed that in his free plans, PP mentions that reversing the rod
> will cause the motor not to work properly. This would seem to imply that
> whatever is creating the magnetisation is also stimulated by it. IOW
> there is a positive feedback mechanism. If so, then the longer a rod is
> in use, the more strongly it should become magnetised, and also the
> better it should work. It might be interesting to start off with a rod
> that has been strongly magnetised before use.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 23 08:52:48 1999
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Frederick,

Yes, it would.  And I plan to check that when I make the virgin rod.

Thanks,

Ed Wall

New Energy Research Laboratory
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc., P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
voice: (603) 226-4822    fax: (603) 224-5975    
website: www.infinite-energy.com
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 1999 6:18 AM
Subject: Re: Running GEET on Biomass


> A thought on magnetization of the rod.
> 
> The welding current developed while putting the spacer "beads"
> on the rod would magnetize it, no?  D.C. welder   x amperes?
> 
> Regards,     Frederick
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 23 10:27:02 1999
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Subject: Re: BBGB  Sansbury
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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John -

> 
>  Dear Vo.,
> 
> 
>  Anyone have REAL description of Sansbury experimental set up?
>
>  For my thinking it is a moot issue until the experimental set up
> is at he very  LEAST described.
>
>  Some "experiments" give a "real answer" as calculated and inferred
> from nearby events.
>
>
>      J


Can you read PDF files? The files on his site are inb PDF (Acrobat) format.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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Subject: Re: BBGB  Sansbury
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	Dear Rick,

	I cannot, but I can probably borrow time on a machnie that can...
	What is the site address, please? 

On Sat, 23 Oct 1999, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> John -
> 
> > 
> >  Dear Vo.,
> > 
> > 
> >  Anyone have REAL description of Sansbury experimental set up?
> >
> >  For my thinking it is a moot issue until the experimental set up
> > is at he very  LEAST described.
> >
> >  Some "experiments" give a "real answer" as calculated and inferred
> > from nearby events.
> >
> >
> >      J
> 
> 
> Can you read PDF files? The files on his site are inb PDF (Acrobat) format.
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 23 12:20:54 1999
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Subject: Re: Effects of Magnetic Field on Metabolic Action in ...
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That was a good and informative study, Hamdi. Thank you for bringing it to
our attention.

I have come across several anecdotal references to a North pole of a magnet
creating a different biological response than from application of a South
pole. (!) 
Well, I am still having a difficult time believing that. Can anyone offer
as good a study to prove or disprove that? Or.. Explain possible reasons why?

Best,  Colin 

At 05:36 AM 10/23/99 +0300, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>See the innocent magnetic field in a closer look.
>
>Abstract:
>http://jjap.kopas.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle?magazine=JJAP&volume=38&number=1
0B&page=L1201-L1203
>
>Paper:
>http://jjap.kopas.co.jp/journal/pdf/JJAP-38-10B/L1201.pdf
>or
>http://jjap.kopas.co.jp/journal/html/JJAP-38-10B/L1201/
>
>Free registration is required. (I did)
>
>Regards, 
>
>hamdi ucar
>
>Jpn. J. Appl. Phys. Vol.38(1999) pp.L1201-L1203 
>Part 2, No. 10B, 15 October 1999 
>
>Effects of Magnetic Field on Metabolic Action in the
>Peripheral Tissue 
>
>Tatsyuki Kawakubo, Kazue Yamauchi and Takashi Kobayashi 
>
>Faculty of Engineering, Toin University of Yokohama,1614 Kurogane-cho,
Aoba-ku, Yokohama 225-8502, Japan 
>(Received August 6, 1999 ; accepted for publication August 25, 1999 ) 
>
>Abstract:
>
>The effect of magnetic field on metabolic action in the peripheral tissue
was examined in 12 subjects by measuring skin temperature with a
thermographic tracer and the binding ratio of oxygen to hemoglobin using an
apparatus for detecting concentrations of oxyhemoglobin and
deoxyhemoglobin. The skin temperature was found to increase by 0.4-1.2°C
after a 5-min exposure to a magnetic field of 0.45 or 1.2 T. The binding
ratio of oxygen showed a rapid decrease with application of magnetic field,
which indicated the release of oxygen from hemoglobin.
>
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 23 12:55:26 1999
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Subject: Re: Running GEET on Biomass
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Ed,

GEET of Pennsylvania Peter Michel , answered my question of the reaction rod
and how to "center" it inside the reaction chamber vs. welding of spacer
"beads."  They also found that hardened steel rod would work better than
regular steel.

Regards,   Michael Randall

----Original Message-----
From: GEETofPA aol.com <GEETofPA@aol.com>
To: geet-vortex-carb onelist.com <geet-vortex-carb@onelist.com>
Date: Saturday, July 24, 1999 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: [geet-vortex-carb] Reactor Chamber Adjustment


>From: GEETofPA aol.com
[snip]
<< How do you keep the reaction rod from moving inside the reaction chamber?
>>

I'm not sure that this is necessary.  Paul told me that it finds it's own
center.  From what I understand, GEET used to use pieces of 1/16" twisted
wire on each fitting at the ends of the inner chamber to help center the
rod.
They also welded tiny knobs on three sides on the ends of the rods to keep
it centered vertically.  I don't know if they do this anymore.  When I spoke
with Paul at the last show, he said that they had learned that it will
actually find it's own center and that this "manual" centering is
unnecessary.  I have never used anything to center the rod personally, but
perhaps it would make a difference.  If the rod moves too far to the end of
the chamber nearest the engine intake, then I would imagine it could inhibit
the fuel flow quite a bit.  I've thought of centering it with various sized
springs inserted into the end bushings.  Please experiment with different
centering methods and let me know if you find anything that makes a
difference for you.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Wall <ewall infinite-energy.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Saturday, October 23, 1999 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: Running GEET on Biomass


>Frederick,
>
>Yes, it would.  And I plan to check that when I make the virgin rod.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Ed Wall
>
>New Energy Research Laboratory
>Cold Fusion Technology, Inc., P.O. Box 2816, Concord, NH 03302-2816
>voice: (603) 226-4822    fax: (603) 224-5975
>website: www.infinite-energy.com
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Sent: Saturday, October 23, 1999 6:18 AM
>Subject: Re: Running GEET on Biomass
>
>
>> A thought on magnetization of the rod.
>>
>> The welding current developed while putting the spacer "beads"
>> on the rod would magnetize it, no?  D.C. welder   x amperes?
>>
>> Regards,     Frederick
>>
>>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 23 14:50:11 1999
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The highly water-soluble Potassium Soaps that can be made from fats
and water-leached Wood Ashes treated with lime to get KOH (potassium
hydroxide)
might be of interest as a potassium carrier in the GEET fuels.

 http://wwwchem.csustan.edu/chem1002/soapexp.htm

The water-soluble glycerin product should also serve as a fuel.

Regards,     Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 23 15:35:16 1999
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Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 12:34:18 -1000
Subject: Sansbury's Web Site URL
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Here's the URL for Sansbury's site.

I'll have to add to this later if I can, becuase there's some URLs for files
you can't get to from the main page. They're in there somewhere, but you
have to access them by putting the URL directly in your browser's address
bar because he provided no buttons or links (that I have found) to them on
his main page.

http://www.bestweb.net/~sansbury/


- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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Ok, here's some more on the Sansbury site. This is a rundown on the 
experiment he did:

http://www.bestweb.net/~sansbury/Pockels.pdf

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 23 18:50:34 1999
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Subject: Corn Usage - Annual Food and Industrial Corn Use
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Corn Usage - Annual Food and Industrial Corn Use


    =20

     ANNUAL FOOD AND INDUSTRIAL CORN USE
      CALENDAR YEAR 1996
            Use 1,000 Bushels 1,000 Pounds (Dry)=20
            Fuel Alcohol 376,200 938,000*=20
            Beverages 401,543 12,648,607=20
            Industrial Starch 183,871 5,791,927=20
            Dry Milled Products 118,400=20
            Beverage Alcohol 102,900=20
            Misc. Foods 52,644 1,658,282=20
            Food Starches 50,235 1,582,418=20
            Canning 47,918 1,509,425=20
            Confectionary 46,403 1,461,666=20
            Baked Goods 45,995 1,448,827=20
            Dairy Products 37,433 1,179,124=20
            Pharmaceuticals 31,609 995,697=20
            Condiments 16,908 532,587=20
            Jams and Jellies 16,681 525,448=20
            Cereals 3,167 99,769=20
            TOTAL 1,530,906 29,433,795=20

      *In gallons, instead of pounds. Includes dry-milled ethanol.=20

      Source: Estimated by Corn Refiners Association, Inc. and corn =
industry sources. All figures are estimates and may differ from other =
usage figures and/or estimates based on sources.=20



      SEARCH | HELP | WRITE US

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
      Last updated 16-Apr-1997.
      =A9 1995-7 Ohio Corn Marketing Program
    =20


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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Corn Usage - Annual Food and Industrial Corn =
Use</TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<TABLE border=3D0 width=3D500>
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  <TR>
    <TD colSpan=3D2><A href=3D"header.map"><IMG alt=3D"[Clickable =
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  <TR>
    <TD><IMG alt=3D. hspace=3D30 src=3D"../clear.gif"><BR></TD>
    <TD>
      <CENTER>
      <H2><FONT size=3D+3>A</FONT>NNUAL <FONT size=3D+3>F</FONT>OOD AND =
<FONT=20
      size=3D+3>I</FONT>NDUSTRIAL <FONT size=3D+3>C</FONT>ORN <FONT=20
      size=3D+3>U</FONT>SE</H2>
      <H3><FONT size=3D+2>C</FONT>ALENDAR <FONT size=3D+2>Y</FONT>EAR =
1996</H3>
      <TABLE border=3D1>
        <TBODY>
        <TR>
          <TH>Use</TH>
          <TH>1,000 Bushels</TH>
          <TH>1,000 Pounds (Dry)</TH></TR>
        <TR>
          <TD>Fuel Alcohol</TD>
          <TD>376,200</TD>
          <TD>938,000*</TD></TR>
        <TR>
          <TD>Beverages</TD>
          <TD>401,543</TD>
          <TD>12,648,607</TD></TR>
        <TR>
          <TD>Industrial Starch</TD>
          <TD>183,871</TD>
          <TD>5,791,927</TD></TR>
        <TR>
          <TD>Dry Milled Products</TD>
          <TD>118,400</TD></TR>
        <TR>
          <TD>Beverage Alcohol</TD>
          <TD>102,900</TD></TR>
        <TR>
          <TD>Misc. Foods</TD>
          <TD>52,644</TD>
          <TD>1,658,282</TD></TR>
        <TR>
          <TD>Food Starches</TD>
          <TD>50,235</TD>
          <TD>1,582,418</TD></TR>
        <TR>
          <TD>Canning</TD>
          <TD>47,918</TD>
          <TD>1,509,425</TD></TR>
        <TR>
          <TD>Confectionary</TD>
          <TD>46,403</TD>
          <TD>1,461,666</TD></TR>
        <TR>
          <TD>Baked Goods</TD>
          <TD>45,995</TD>
          <TD>1,448,827</TD></TR>
        <TR>
          <TD>Dairy Products</TD>
          <TD>37,433</TD>
          <TD>1,179,124</TD></TR>
        <TR>
          <TD>Pharmaceuticals</TD>
          <TD>31,609</TD>
          <TD>995,697</TD></TR>
        <TR>
          <TD>Condiments</TD>
          <TD>16,908</TD>
          <TD>532,587</TD></TR>
        <TR>
          <TD>Jams and Jellies</TD>
          <TD>16,681</TD>
          <TD>525,448</TD></TR>
        <TR>
          <TD>Cereals</TD>
          <TD>3,167</TD>
          <TD>99,769</TD></TR>
        <TR>
          <TD><B>TOTAL</B></TD>
          <TD><B>1,530,906</B></TD>
          <TD><B>29,433,795</B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
      <P><I>*In gallons, instead of pounds. Includes dry-milled =
ethanol.</I>=20
      <P><I>Source: Estimated by Corn Refiners Association, Inc. and =
corn=20
      industry sources. All figures are estimates and may differ from =
other=20
      usage figures and/or estimates based on sources.</I>=20
      <P>
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      <HR SIZE=3D6 width=3D"20%">
      <FONT size=3D2>Last updated 16-Apr-1997.<BR>=A9 1995-7 Ohio Corn =
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 23 18:59:59 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Alcohol-Potassium Acetate In Stock Engines
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 19:56:16 -0700
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As a "Control" against the GEET, a stock air-cooled engine
running on a mix of Fuel Alcohol and Potassium Acetate-H2O
might be worth a try.

Potassium Acetate is made by reacting K2CO3 with Vinegar:

2 CH3-CO-OH + K2CO3 ---> 2 CH3-CO-OK + CO2 + H2O

Soluble in a water ethanol mix.

I've ran air-cooled engines on 60% (120 proof) water-ethanol fuel.
but never thought of making Hydrinos (in situ) by adding a potassium 
"salt".

BTW, Acetic Acid (Vinegar) is partially oxidized ethanol.  :-)

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 23 22:18:03 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: GEET plans available
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 01:24:55 -0400
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Rick writes:
>I find this kind of humorous:
>Ok, so one more time: Step 1 - Tools needed - ***machine shop***, pipe
>wrench, etc...
>
>Cracks me up because I've bought stuff like that before "only a screwdriver
>needed for assembly and installation" and the first line *after* you open
>the box is something like "before assembly, precision mill and polish all
>fitting surfaces to within .00001" accuracy..."

You would have laughed your steel rod right off if you had been around when
I was building my CNC device "kit" that I got from some hillbilly outfit in
Arkansas for $700.  Bill Beaty came over and took a look at it, and can tell
you what kind of Erector Set piece of work it was.  I pretty much knew I had
made a mistake when, after signing all the covenants and disclaimers, etc.,
I called the customer service number about something quite minor, and the
woman shrieked "WE MAKE AN EXCELLENT PRODUCT!!!"  I could hear dogs barking
in the background, and babies crying.  Lets face it, for a lot of us who are
attempting to do things independantly of the major corporations, life itself
is very often an uphill battle.  Getting even some production model engines
from Ford or GM to work reliably is not always easy.  My hat is off to
Pantone and any other "lawnmower machanic" just for being crazy enough to
try it.

There is a possible explanation for the magnetism however, that links
together the behavior of several devices, and makes me think that maybe
Pantone actually has something.  First of all, the George Wiseman people at
Eagle Research have reported the discovery of an "electrically charged
steam" that they say is developed between the plates of the BG generators.
They are convinced that this steam is responsible for the anomolous
combustion results of Brown's Gas as opposed to normal H2 O2 gas combustion.
They are asking for ideas on how to isolate this steam from the H2 and O2
gases.  The Ranque/Hilsch Vortex tube and the Potapov device may be
producing this type of steam, as well as some of the cavitators, simply by
rotating water molecules up to a speed whereby they can capture free
electrons and hold them in a condensed charge within a mini-vortex.  It
could well be that simply running a charged gas around an iron bar would
magnetize the bar just as readily as running a DC current through an
insulated coil wrapped around the bar.  It may be that the electrical charge
gathered in the gas is what is responsible for the engine's ability to
combust more thoroughly the garbage that is run through it.  Just a thought.

Electrifying Times Magazine is currently running the Pantone offer as well
as reporting on a good number of other advances in the electrical/hybrid
vehicle market. They are also featuring a story on BLP. The URL is:

http://www.teleport.com/~etimes/

I highly recommend this magazine.

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 24 14:00:25 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Colin Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Alcohol-Potassium Acetate In Stock Engines
In-Reply-To: <011301bf1dcb$5c397820$da8e1d26 fjsparber>
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FWIW, I had a vivid dream last night about a vortex of acetic acid. Some
kind of bubbles were given off.

Colin Quinney

At 07:56 PM 10/23/99 -0700, you wrote:
>As a "Control" against the GEET, a stock air-cooled engine
>running on a mix of Fuel Alcohol and Potassium Acetate-H2O
>might be worth a try.
>
>Potassium Acetate is made by reacting K2CO3 with Vinegar:
>
>2 CH3-CO-OH + K2CO3 ---> 2 CH3-CO-OK + CO2 + H2O
>
>Soluble in a water ethanol mix.
>
>I've ran air-cooled engines on 60% (120 proof) water-ethanol fuel.
>but never thought of making Hydrinos (in situ) by adding a potassium 
>"salt".
>
>BTW, Acetic Acid (Vinegar) is partially oxidized ethanol.  :-)
>
>Regards,     Frederick
>
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 24 14:14:21 1999
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Fuel Alcohol-Potassium Acetate In Stock Engines
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Colin Quinney <quinney inforamp.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 1999 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: Fuel Alcohol-Potassium Acetate In Stock Engines

Musta been the Sauerkraut!   :-)

Regards,    Frederick


> FWIW, I had a vivid dream last night about a vortex of acetic acid. Some
> kind of bubbles were given off.
> 
> Colin Quinney
> 
> At 07:56 PM 10/23/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >As a "Control" against the GEET, a stock air-cooled engine
> >running on a mix of Fuel Alcohol and Potassium Acetate-H2O
> >might be worth a try.
> >
> >Potassium Acetate is made by reacting K2CO3 with Vinegar:
> >
> >2 CH3-CO-OH + K2CO3 ---> 2 CH3-CO-OK + CO2 + H2O
> >
> >Soluble in a water ethanol mix.
> >
> >I've ran air-cooled engines on 60% (120 proof) water-ethanol fuel.
> >but never thought of making Hydrinos (in situ) by adding a potassium 
> >"salt".
> >
> >BTW, Acetic Acid (Vinegar) is partially oxidized ethanol.  :-)
> >
> >Regards,     Frederick
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 24 17:48:18 1999
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 20:46:58 EDT
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment
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Fred Sparber thought that Mills' EUV lines would be obscured by the high 
temperatures of hot fusion plasmas and wouldn't be seen unless looked for, 
assuming they're there at such high temperatures.  

I don't know whether or not Mills claims that they should be, but he had to 
go to a lot of trouble to document them in his gas phase cells running at 
much lower temperatures.  I wonder if any hot fusioneer has asked Mills 
whether or not he thinks his EUV lines could be seen in hot fusion plasmas.

Michael, what are those EUV spectroscopes used for in hot fusion?  And is the 
term EUV used for the same region of the spectrum that it is in astrophysics, 
i.e., roughly 100 nm to 10 nm (1000 Å to 100 Å)?

Mitchell Swartz wondered what journals hot fusioneers read if they don't read 
FUSION TECHNOLOGY.  So do I.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 24 17:51:15 1999
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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 20:54:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Whirlpower
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	Dear Vo.,


	I was recently able to borrow some time on a machine that allowed
me to see some of the www sites.  
	I went to one called Whirlpower.

	There were some drawings of a tank and some structures in it which
appeared to be means to either stir the water or get energy from the
water.

	My understanding, from posts on the matter, is the inventor feels
wobbling or sloshing somehow makes more energy.

	There are a number of vortex fluid actions that can be seen in
smoke tunnels, cloud action, votex from rotor tip of helicopter.
	Some studies mentioned by Martin Gardner, who has written in the
past for Scientific American indicate left or right spin of vortex from
water draining out of tank takes the direction of the vortex caused by
filling and the water can exhibit this ... go the same way effect for
several hours.
	If the water has allowed to be still for longer than this the
vortex can go either way.

	Some simple kitchen sink and pan tests... with dye to see spin
indicate the water spins the longest with smooth sides, no objects in the
flow and a smooth even swirling.
	The wobbling can be induced in a number of ways, by fluid, by
irregularity of the sides of the chamber and by manually tipping.
	After the slosh or wobble has been established it can tend to get
bigger, all by itself, with the pan set level.
	In all cases, maybe 20 slosh trials and 25 smooth trials the slosh
was more lossy... which stands to reason.

	I may  have it wrong, the pictures were not very clear to me
exactly
what the members were that were in the fluid tank as depicted on the site.
 	So far, no object, ring, paddle or rod, smooth or not HELPS the
swirling.... all exhibit impediment, slosh or wobble slows the swirling
down even more rapidly.

	As I understand it NOAA has some good fluid flow models

	Hope we get some better pictures at the site, but so far I cannot
see how added items and non smoother flow will HELP the flow??.  It seems
the non smooth flow takes a longer path and the lift and drop of slosh 
uses up more and damps more of the nergy.

	In any event you have to lift and-or stir water or the air above
it to start this happening, smooth or sloshy ... as it runs out the bottom
you have the energy of the drop... but, of course you had to lift it...
unless it fills with rain, then it is powered by the sun.
	If you don't let it drain to make a swirl.... then you have to add
energy, with paddles or pumps or rotation or the whole tank ... and any
tubulence or slosh or impediments slow the water, I will have to guess it
is expressed as a very mild heating.
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 24 17:55:51 1999
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From: "David Dennard" <daviddennard hotmail.com>
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John descriptions of what are happening in Whirlpower are in no way what is 
said or represented.


>From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Subject: Whirlpower
>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 20:54:19 -0400 (EDT)
>
>
>	Dear Vo.,
>
>
>	I was recently able to borrow some time on a machine that allowed
>me to see some of the www sites.
>	I went to one called Whirlpower.
>
>	There were some drawings of a tank and some structures in it which
>appeared to be means to either stir the water or get energy from the
>water.
>
>	My understanding, from posts on the matter, is the inventor feels
>wobbling or sloshing somehow makes more energy.
>
>	There are a number of vortex fluid actions that can be seen in
>smoke tunnels, cloud action, votex from rotor tip of helicopter.
>	Some studies mentioned by Martin Gardner, who has written in the
>past for Scientific American indicate left or right spin of vortex from
>water draining out of tank takes the direction of the vortex caused by
>filling and the water can exhibit this ... go the same way effect for
>several hours.
>	If the water has allowed to be still for longer than this the
>vortex can go either way.
>
>	Some simple kitchen sink and pan tests... with dye to see spin
>indicate the water spins the longest with smooth sides, no objects in the
>flow and a smooth even swirling.
>	The wobbling can be induced in a number of ways, by fluid, by
>irregularity of the sides of the chamber and by manually tipping.
>	After the slosh or wobble has been established it can tend to get
>bigger, all by itself, with the pan set level.
>	In all cases, maybe 20 slosh trials and 25 smooth trials the slosh
>was more lossy... which stands to reason.
>
>	I may  have it wrong, the pictures were not very clear to me
>exactly
>what the members were that were in the fluid tank as depicted on the site.
>  	So far, no object, ring, paddle or rod, smooth or not HELPS the
>swirling.... all exhibit impediment, slosh or wobble slows the swirling
>down even more rapidly.
>
>	As I understand it NOAA has some good fluid flow models
>
>	Hope we get some better pictures at the site, but so far I cannot
>see how added items and non smoother flow will HELP the flow??.  It seems
>the non smooth flow takes a longer path and the lift and drop of slosh
>uses up more and damps more of the nergy.
>
>	In any event you have to lift and-or stir water or the air above
>it to start this happening, smooth or sloshy ... as it runs out the bottom
>you have the energy of the drop... but, of course you had to lift it...
>unless it fills with rain, then it is powered by the sun.
>	If you don't let it drain to make a swirl.... then you have to add
>energy, with paddles or pumps or rotation or the whole tank ... and any
>tubulence or slosh or impediments slow the water, I will have to guess it
>is expressed as a very mild heating.
>
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 24 19:15:35 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment
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Tom Stolper wrote:
[Snip]

A good example of what happens to spectra at 500 ev where
Bremsstrahlung can mask what Mills is claiming is to see the
spectra of atoms that can be stripped all the way down to
a "hydrogenic" atom ie., 13.6*Z^2 ev , IOW Carbon with
Z = 6.  Now look at ALL KNOWN SPECTRA of the
elements from Hydrogen to Carbon mixed together and see
if you can find any anomalous spectral lines.

The simple spectral Series of  can be treated using a numerical series:

1+2+3.........+n =  n(n+1)/2

For example, if you arbitrarily  give n a value of 150 possible electron
energy levels there are 150(150+1)/2 = 11,325  possible discrete lines
that can occur, fractional orbits or not.

Set n to equal 5 and draw the 15 energy transition levels on a piece of
lined paper to see the series groups.

Ron Brodzinski and I went through this excercise years ago, and plotted
these
out with a computer program and compared them to the OSO satellite data.

There is no way to pick out "Anomalous Solar EUV".

Regards,    Frederick



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From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ca-ois.com>
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--------------632A12972790
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Vorts,

Attached is an html document and some pictures I drew in order to
illustrate my understanding of the Delayed Choice experiment, flawed as
it may be. My argument is that the result of this experiment can be used
for FTL signalling, but somehow every URL I look up about it says no,
and I just cannot follow the reasoning. 

Sorry if this com is rather cumbersome but It is the only way I could
illustrate my problem.

Thanks

Jim O.

--------------632A12972790
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1; name="ESS2.HTM"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ESS2.HTM"
Content-Base: "file:///C|/NETSCAPE/ESS2.HTM"

<BASE HREF=3D"file:///C|/NETSCAPE/ESS2.HTM">

<html>
<head>
</head>
<hr>

 On Fri, 22 Oct 1999, Rick Monteverde wrote:     </P>
                              </P>
 The claim is that the time needed to accumulate to a detection event is
 proportional to distance. This equates to the speed of light for "photon=
s"
 in a general sense. The implication is that nothing flies across either =
the
 solar system or the street, i.e., we don't need photons. Sansbury thinks=

 photons hurtling through the void is a concept in violation of Occam.
       </P>

(snip)      </P>

 Bill B. Wrote: </P>

 Suppose an atom emits a quantum of light.  According to conventional QM,=

 that light travels as an expanding spherical wavetrain.  Think "glass
 onion."  If a distant atom absorbs it, then a QM-event occurs wherein
 the entire wavetrain, everywhere in the universe, winks out of existence=

 simultaneously.  The wavetrain could be light-years in diameter, yet if
 that wavetrain is associated with just one photons-worth of EM energy,
 then the whole wavetrain must be absorbed by the atom which ate the
 photon. ( This is simply the well-known Bell/Aspect/EPR stuff, where
 'wavefunction collapse' must be instantaneous when the photon interacts
 at a point in space. )            </P>

 Jim O. wonders:                                    </P>

 I  have  been  puzzled  for  many  months  wondering  why  the "well-kno=
wn
 Bell/Aspect/EPR" result cannot be utilized to transmit  messages  FTL.  =
It
 would  appear  to  me  that  all  that needs to be done is set up a mutu=
al
 (xmtr-rcvr) precoding scheme wherein the probability of  detections  cou=
ld
 be  set  to  the  binary  encoding 0 percent =3D 0, 100 percent 1 as per=
 the
 following explanation derived from a file  I  have  on  the  topic,  whi=
ch
 proceeds thusly:</P>

 Begin quote: -----------------------------------</P>

 Let  us  try  to reflect a single photon off a half-silvered mirror i.e.=
 a
 mirror which reflects exactly half of the light which  impinges  upon  i=
t,
 while  the  remaining  half  is  transmitted directly through it (Fig. A=
).
 Where do you think the photon is after its encounter with the  mirror  -=
--
 is it in the reflected or in the transmitted beam? </P>

 Fig 1.
 </P>

<p align=3D"center"><img SRC=3D"FIG1.GIF">

  It seems that it would be sensible to say that the photon  is  either  =
in
 the  transmitted or in the reflected beam with the same probability.  Th=
at
 is one might expect the photon to take  one  of  the  two  paths  choosi=
ng
 randomly  which  way to go.  Indeed, if we place two photodetectors behi=
nd
 the half-silvered mirror in direct lines of the two beams, the photon wi=
ll
 be registered with the same probability either in the detector 1 or in t=
he
 detector 2. Does it really mean that after the  half-silvered  mirror  t=
he
 photon  travels  in  either  reflected  or  transmitted beam with the sa=
me
 probability (50%)? No, it does not !  In fact the photon takes `two  pat=
hs
 at  once'.  This can be demonstrated by recombining the two beams with t=
he
 help of two fully  silvered  mirrors  and  placing  another  half-silver=
ed
 mirror  at  their  meeting point, with two photodectors in direct lines =
of
 the two beams (Fig. 2). With this set up we can observe  a  truly  amazi=
ng
 quantum interference phenomenon.

  </P>


Fig 2.<P/>

<p align=3D"center"><img SRC=3D"FIG2.GIF">

 If  it  were  merely the case that there were a 50% chance that the phot=
on
 followed one path and a 50% chance that it followed  the  other,  then  =
we
 should  find  a  50%  probability  that one of the detectors registers t=
he
 photon and a 50% probability that the other one does. However, that is n=
ot
 what happens. If the two possible paths are exactly equal in length,  th=
en
 it  turns out that there is a 100% probability that the photon reaches t=
he
 detector 1 and 0% probability that it reaches the other detector  2.  Th=
us
 the  photon is certain to strike the detector 1!
 </P>

 It  seems  inescapable  that the photon must, in some sense, have actual=
ly
 travelled both routes at once for if an absorbing screen is placed in  t=
he
 way  of  either  of  the two routes, then it becomes equally probable th=
at
 detector 1 or 2 is reached (Fig.3). Blocking off one of the paths actual=
ly
 allows B to be reached; with both routes open, the  photon  somehow  kno=
ws
 that it is not permitted to reach detector2, so it must have actually fe=
lt
 out  both routes. It is therefore perfectly legitimate to say that betwe=
en
 the two half-silvered mirrors the photon took both the transmitted and t=
he
 reflected paths or, using more technical language, we  can  say  that  t=
he
 photon is in a coherent superposition of being in the transmitted beam a=
nd
 in the reflected beam.

</P>

 <p align=3D"center"><img SRC=3D"FIG3.GIF">

End quote from site about "Quantum Computing".-----</P>

 Jim O. (me) continued:</P>

 You can download an animated version of the delayed choice experiment fr=
om
<a href=3D"http://oak.oakland.edu/simtel.net/msdos/science.html">SIMTELNE=
T</A></TD></TR>

</P>
 Look down the list that comes up and  select  "spooky2.zip"  and  downlo=
ad
 it.</P>

  With this simulation, you can play a game called "fight for the  photon=
".
 which  involves  moving your detector closer ("upbeam" as in "upriver") =
to
 the source laser than your opponent at the other detector which is  movi=
ng
 on  it's  own  upbeam path at a predetermined rate. (fig.4) Your job is =
to
 determine the rate of your opponent's movement that you "grab the  photo=
n"
 first.  If  you  are  successful,  you  will  detect  the  photon and yo=
ur
 opponent will not.

</P>

 <p align=3D"center"><img SRC=3D"FIG4.GIF"


   According to the commentary comes up while running this simulation,  t=
he
 detectors  could  theoretically  be  millions of light years apart yet y=
ou
 could still play this game in real time!

 </P>

 So I therefore do not see a problem with a setup like this to communicat=
e
 FTL... Does anybody else?
                                </P>

 Jim O. </P>



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 24 22:38:21 1999
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	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA06360;
	Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:35:44 -0700
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To: freenrg-L eskimo.com
Cc: vortex-L eskimo.com, billb@eskimo.com
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 20:43:17 -0700
Subject: Mysterious Discharges from Shampoo Bottle !
Message-ID: <19991024.223457.-233847.1.tv juno.com>
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From: Tim Vaughn <tv juno.com>
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What is the energy source for these strange electric discharges ?

http://www.esdjournal.com/static/shower/shower.html

It is interesting that they failed to recognize what a novelty they had
produced and just
tried to get rid of the discharges.

Why would the bottles recharge themselves while just sitting on a shelf ?

Is this just dielectric relaxation ?  Or is there more to this.

It would be interesting to try and duplicate this phenomenon.

Tim
( tv juno.com )

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The Worst Analogies Ever Written in a High School Essay
The Worst Analogies
Ever Written in a High School Essay=20


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

They lived in a typical suburban neighborhood with picket fences that =
resembled Nancy Kerrigan's teeth.=20

He spoke with the wisdom that can only come from experience, like a guy =
who went blind because he looked at a solar eclipse without one of those =
boxes with a pinhole in it and now goes around the country speaking at =
high schools about the dangers of looking at a solar eclipse without one =
of those boxes with a pinhole in it.=20

She caught your eye like one of those pointy hook latches that used to =
dangle from screen doors and would fly up whenever you banged the door =
open again.=20

The little boat gently drifted across the pond exactly the way a bowling =
ball wouldn't.=20

McBride fell 12 stories, hitting the pavement like a Hefty Bag filled =
with vegetable soup.=20

>From the attic came an unearthly howl. The whole scene had an eerie, =
surreal quality, like when you're on vacation in another city and =
"Jeopardy" comes on at 7 p.m. instead of 7:30.=20

Her hair glistened in the rain like nose hair after a sneeze.=20

Her eyes were like two brown circles with big black dots in the center.=20

Bob was as perplexed as a hacker who means to access =
T:flw.quid55328.com\aaakk/ch ung but gets T:\flw.quidaaakk/ch@ung by =
mistake.=20

He was as tall as a six-foot-three-inch tree.=20

The hailstones leaped from the pavement, just like maggots when you fry =
them in hot grease.=20

Her date was pleasant enough, but she knew that if her life was a movie =
this guy would be buried in the credits as something like "Second Tall =
Man."=20

Long separated by cruel fate, the star-crossed lovers raced across the =
grassy field toward each other like two freight trains, one having left =
Cleveland at 6:36 p.m. traveling at 55 mph, the other from Topeka at =
4:19 p.m. at a speed of 35 mph.=20

The politician was gone but unnoticed, like the period after the Dr. on =
a Dr Pepper can.=20

John and Mary had never met. They were like two hummingbirds who had =
also never met.=20

The thunder was ominous-sounding, much like the sound of a thin sheet of =
metal being shaken backstage during the storm scene in a play.=20

His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like =
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free.=20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Back to Humor Index or The Negapage.=20

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>The Worst Analogies Ever Written in a High School =
Essay</TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://volatile.simplenet.com/kym/humor/analog.htm><LINK =
href=3D"humor.css"=20
rel=3Dstylesheet type=3Dtext/css>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<H1 align=3Dcenter>The Worst Analogies<BR>Ever Written in a High School =
Essay=20
</H1>
<P>
<HR>

<P>They lived in a typical suburban neighborhood with picket fences that =

resembled Nancy Kerrigan's teeth.=20
<P>He spoke with the wisdom that can only come from experience, like a =
guy who=20
went blind because he looked at a solar eclipse without one of those =
boxes with=20
a pinhole in it and now goes around the country speaking at high schools =
about=20
the dangers of looking at a solar eclipse without one of those boxes =
with a=20
pinhole in it.=20
<P>She caught your eye like one of those pointy hook latches that used =
to dangle=20
from screen doors and would fly up whenever you banged the door open =
again.=20
<P>The little boat gently drifted across the pond exactly the way a =
bowling ball=20
wouldn't.=20
<P>McBride fell 12 stories, hitting the pavement like a Hefty Bag filled =
with=20
vegetable soup.=20
<P>From the attic came an unearthly howl. The whole scene had an eerie, =
surreal=20
quality, like when you're on vacation in another city and "Jeopardy" =
comes on at=20
7 p.m. instead of 7:30.=20
<P>Her hair glistened in the rain like nose hair after a sneeze.=20
<P>Her eyes were like two brown circles with big black dots in the =
center.=20
<P>Bob was as perplexed as a hacker who means to access=20
T:flw.quid55328.com\aaakk/ch ung but gets T:\flw.quidaaakk/ch@ung by =
mistake.=20
<P>He was as tall as a six-foot-three-inch tree.=20
<P>The hailstones leaped from the pavement, just like maggots when you =
fry them=20
in hot grease.=20
<P>Her date was pleasant enough, but she knew that if her life was a =
movie this=20
guy would be buried in the credits as something like "Second Tall Man."=20
<P>Long separated by cruel fate, the star-crossed lovers raced across =
the grassy=20
field toward each other like two freight trains, one having left =
Cleveland at=20
6:36 p.m. traveling at 55 mph, the other from Topeka at 4:19 p.m. at a =
speed of=20
35 mph.=20
<P>The politician was gone but unnoticed, like the period after the Dr. =
on a Dr=20
Pepper can.=20
<P>John and Mary had never met. They were like two hummingbirds who had =
also=20
never met.=20
<P>The thunder was ominous-sounding, much like the sound of a thin sheet =
of=20
metal being shaken backstage during the storm scene in a play.=20
<P>His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like=20
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free.=20
<P align=3Dcenter>
<HR>
Back to <A href=3D"index.htm">Humor Index</A> or <A=20
href=3D"http://members.aol.com/negaduck9/negapage.htm">The Negapage</A>. =

</BODY></HTML>

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	Great... 'bout to fall over laughing..

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 25 07:13:23 1999
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"It has long been known"...  I didn't look up the original
reference.

"A definite trend is evident"...  These data are practically
meaningless.

"While it has not been possible to provide definite answers
to the questions"...  An unsuccessful experiment, but I
still hope to get it published.

"Three of the samples were chosen for detailed study"...
The other results didn't make any sense.

"Typical results are shown"...  This is the prettiest graph.

"These results will be in a subsequent report"...  I might
get around to this sometime, if pushed/funded.

"In my experience"...  once

"In case after case"...  twice

"In a series of cases"...  thrice

"It is believed that"...  I think.

"It is generally believed that"...  A couple of others think
so, too.

"Correct within an order of magnitude"...  Wrong.

"According to statistical analysis"...  Rumor has it.

"A statistically oriented projection of the significance of
these findings"...  A wild guess.

"A careful analysis of obtainable data"...  Three pages of
notes were obliterated when I knocked over a glass of pop.

"It is clear that much additional work will be required
before a complete understanding of this phenomenon
occurs"...  I don't understand it.

"After additional study by my colleagues"...  They don't
understand it either.

"Thanks are due to Joe Blotz for assistance with the
experiment and to Cindy Adams for valuable discussions"...
Mr.  Blotz did the work and Ms.  Adams explained to me what
it meant.

"A highly significant area for exploratory study"...  A
totally useless topic selected by my committee.

"It is hoped that this study will stimulate further
investigation in this field"...  I quit.

---


Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes


HotBot - Search smarter.
http://www.hotbot.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 25 08:37:12 1999
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	This looks like stuff from REAL science.... I saw this in REAL
science labs!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 25 11:58:48 1999
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:56:30 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: "Apollo 13" DVD
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The movie "Apollo 13" is available on DVD disk in a special Collector's
Edition. Among other things, it has a extra "feature commentary" sound
track which is a voice-over recording of comments made by mission commander
Jim Lovell and his wife, along the lines of "Mystery Science 3000." They
described the actual events portrayed in the movie, and the occasional
technical errors and screenwriter's inventions.

Technically, Apollo 13 is largely the story of energy. To be more specific,
it is about the inadequacy of chemical energy systems in complex,
stand-alone, critical applications like space travel. Most aerospace
accidents are caused by or exacerbated by fuel explosions. The second
(engineering) theme of the movie is how difficult it is to manage and
conserve energy in critical situations and how batteries carry a small
charge and do not work well at low temperatures. It goes without saying
that CF would solve these problems. Even if it could not be used for
propulsion or electricity, and it only generated low-level heat, a 1000
watt CF room heater would have made a big improvement in the safety margin.
It would have kept the cabin warm, enhancing battery performance and
preventing dangerous condensation on the instrument panel. Before he turned
on the power, one astronaut looked at the condensation and said, "this is
like driving a toaster through a car wash."

There is another track with comments by the director, Ron Howard. I
listened to the beginning of it. He also describes what is real and what is
artistic license.

- Jed

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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Microwave Electrodeless Discharge in a Jar
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:55:26 -0700
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FWIW,  

A small amount of H2O or D2O along with some K2CO3
and some Aluminum Foil in a sealed jar (a pyrex test tube
would be safer) placed in a microwave oven (2.45 GHz)
will start an electrodeless discharge and release H2 or D2
as the Aluminum reacts: Al +  3 H2O ---> Al(OH)3 + 3 H.
and   4 Al + 3 O2 --->  2 Al2O3

It's a cut and try deal,  USE EXTREME CAUTION!

Coating the inside of the "jar" with a Calcium Tungstate
phosphor (fluoresces blue under EUV) is optional.

Regards,      Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 25 15:41:25 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: "Apollo 13" DVD
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:42:06 -0400
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Hi Jed,

I watched both the excellent PBS documentary of the Apollo 13 mission, and
the Ron Howard commercial dramatization.  I only wondered why anyone would
spend money to produce a dramatization that was an almost identical copy of
one of the most dramatic and well documented events in the history of the
space race.  Of course the only answer was to capitalize on it.

Watching the real people both in the capsule and in the ground control
terminal when the crew's life was in extreme peril was quite compelling.
Watching wealthy, soft actors act like they were scared was, well... you
know.  I have the same opinion of many of the phoney Vietnam movies.  Pure
garbage meant to exploit and capitalize on something that was a very real
and pure horror for many of our people.

The real footage of the Apollo 13 mission communicates how true heroes
respond to extreme crisis.  They were incredibly cool under pressure.  I was
very relieved to see them reach Earth safely.  It didn't look good there for
a very long time.  I'd ask your local PBS station if they have copies of
that documentary for sale.  It's quite good.  You'd be supporting PBS
instead of Ron Howard, and you'd get to see the real thing.

Knuke


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 25 17:19:32 1999
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Oct. 25, 1999

Vortex,

My daughter e-mailed me and her friends this item for some reason. I am fowarding
it to this discussion group since we are running a funny streak right now.
Jawohl?!

-ak-

> The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English
> will be the official language of the EU rather than German, which was the
> other
> possibility.  As part of the negotiation Her Majesty's Government conceded
> that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5
> year phase-in plan that would be known as 'Euro-English'.
>
> In the first year 's' will replace the soft 'c' .  Sertainly, this will
> make the sivil servants jump with joy.
> The hard 'C' will be dropped in favour of the 'K'.  This should clear up
> konfusion and keyboarts kan have one less letter.
> There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the
> troublesome 'ph' will be replased with the 'f'.  This will make words like
> 'fotograf' 20 per sent shorter.
> In the 3rd year publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to
> reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.
> Governments will enkorage the removal of double leters which always have
> ben a deterent to akurate speling.
> Also al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent 'e' in the languag is
> disgrasful and it should go away.
> By the 4th year peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing 'th' with
> 'z' and 'w' with 'v'.
> During ze fifz year ze unesesary 'o' kan be dropd from words kontaining
> 'ou' and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.
> After ziz fifz yer ve vil hav a sensibl riten styl.  Zer vil be no mor
> trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer.
>
> ZE DREM VIL FINALI KUM TRU!!



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 25 17:19:56 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Radar Equipment for sale and Seattle Radar Anomaly
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:26:28 -0400
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Please note that all inquiries should be directed to Mike Clow at:
mnsclow hotmail.com
as I am just passing this on to the group.  Thanks,

Knuke

>Return-Path: <mnsclow hotmail.com>
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>From: "Mike & Susan Clow" <mnsclow hotmail.com>
>To: billb eskimo.com
>Cc: knuke LCIA.COM
>Subject: Radar Equipment for sale and Seattle Radar Anomaly
>Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:56:48 PDT
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>
>Hi, I am not sure if you can point me in any usefull directions, but I am 
>trying to help Anna Wood dispose of her deceased husbands radar equipment. 
>His name was William Wood but he was best known as "Woody" and is the man 
>mentioned in the "Seattle Radar Anamoly" in the email from Michael T 
>Huffman.
>
>He left a garage full of Radar & Microwave gear, (including B-52 targeting 
>radar used to observe the "Anamoly") as well as quite a bit of test 
>equipment including older model signal generators (VHF, UHF and SHF) a 4+GHz 
>spectrum analyzer and a few others.  The radar gear is mostly S Band and X 
>Band, and mostly Raytheon Marine with a smattering of Military stuff and a 
>VERY high frequency Transmitter/Receiver (we are talking waveguide the size 
>of a pencil) used at the UW to do atmospheric research (measure the speed of 
>falling raindrops etc).
>
>Anyway, all of this stuff must go by the end of November, some of it is 
>already spoken for and some more has an active bid on it, but if you could 
>let me know of, or forward this email to,  any possibly interested parties 
>then Mrs Wood and I would appreciate it.
>
>Thanks very much.
>
>Thanks for your assistance in this matter.
>
>Mike Clow
>mnsclow hotmail.com
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>About the Anamoly, I have seen it myself on his equipment, but I am pretty 
>much convinced it was in the equipment and not an outside source.  I have no 
>actual proof of this, nor do I have any solid explanation, just a hunch that 
>it might involve water vapor (or lack therof?) in his fiberglass dome, or 
>perhaps in the waveguide, or perhaps in foliage which would be more present 
>in the summer.  It was an interesting beehive shaped target, roughly 
>southwest from Woodie's Burien location, at something like 15 or 20 degrees 
>elevation.  He had asked me if it could originate from a satellite, but it 
>did not appear to be in the plane where the geosynchronous sattelites are 
>(close though), and since it was apparently fixed that precludes a deep 
>space or orbiting object.  I looked for trees in the area of the target, and 
>did not see any, but I still wonder if an echo or a side lobe could have 
>been affected by a nearby tree.  Well, thats all I have to add on the 
>subject.
>
>A final note for you, he pointed one of his S-Band transmitter feedhorns 
>straight up and used a repetitive code transmitter to send a simple 
>repeating signal straight up, it was his little "hello" to whoever was 
>listening out there.  There was no response that we know of, ha ha!
>
>
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 25 17:42:03 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: off topic:Euro-humor
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:49:13 -0400
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Just a tip for those who are not familiar with the German language, never
directly translate the English question "Can I have a hot dog?" to a large
Bavarian waitress.  I did once, and was promptly removed from the
establishment.  I also knew a German kid whose entire English vocabulary
consisted of stuff that he had read off the back of Frank Zappa albums.  I
got into a lot of trouble while hanging around with him, too...

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 25 19:40:24 1999
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: recommendation on RECENT cold fusion work
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  Vorts:

  To those interested in cold fusion, who want to know
what is really going on [supplementing the 
detailed scientific literature, of course ;-)X  ],
beg Akira Kawasaki to sell you a set of his tapes on
the Canadian meeting last week with lectures from 
Fleischmann, Mills, Miles, Storms, ....  It is the
latest in his series of these excellent tapes.

  Although not edited or titled, that would be a small
benefit compared with the fact that they were shot very well
compared with some I have seen, and have both good 
visualization of the graphics and recording of the talks.

    Mitchell Swartz


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 26 05:39:54 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: "Apollo 13" DVD
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Michael T Huffman wrote:

>Watching the real people both in the capsule and in the ground control
>terminal when the crew's life was in extreme peril was quite compelling.
>Watching wealthy, soft actors act like they were scared was, well...

The real astronauts and mission control people loved the movie. They
contributed a great deal to it as consultants. They thought the actors were
remarkably tough, especially in the K147 weightless training and filmaking.
Documentaries are fine but there is also a place for fictionalized
accounts, which bring out the personal and human side of a story, and which
show things which were not filmed.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 26 06:16:28 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Everclear-Potassium Acetate Powered Engines?
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 07:10:52 -0700
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A 375 milliliter bottle of "Everclear" 95% (190 Proof) ethanol, costs
about $8.00 at your local liquor store. 5% distilled white vinegar
is easy to come by.

138 grams of K2CO3 reacted with 2.4 kg (~2,400 ml)of vinegar will
yield ~196 grams of Potassium Acetate (CH3-CO-O- K+) containing
~78 grams of  Potassium, some  as K+.

Since 100 ml of ethanol will dissolve ~33 grams of Potassium Acetate, adding
the water-acetate mix to the ethanol so that the "fuel" is at least 80%
ethanol,
~5% Potassium Acetate and ~15 % H20, should be no problem.

Burns with a clean, beautiful blue flame in a saucer, but I'll stick to
bananas for a potassium source.         :-)

One needs a small engine and a dynamometer to run the tests to
see if any Hydrino Power is developed in the combustion chamber plasma.

Regards,     Frederick





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 26 08:33:29 1999
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Subject: Re: Bomb Calorimetry of an Ethanol-Potassium Acetate Mix
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A Bomb Calorimeter test of an Ethanol-Potassium Acetate mix
would tend to prove whether or not the Potassium will catalyze
the formation of Hydrinos, which should put the heat output above 
the Low Heat Value (11,531 Btu/Lb)of Ethanol.

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 26 12:33:03 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: "Apollo 13" DVD
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Jed writes:
>The real astronauts and mission control people loved the movie. They
>contributed a great deal to it as consultants. They thought the actors were
>remarkably tough, especially in the K147 weightless training and filmaking.
>Documentaries are fine but there is also a place for fictionalized
>accounts, which bring out the personal and human side of a story, and which
>show things which were not filmed.
>
>- Jed

Well, that's all I need to hear.  Actually, there is *nothing* about an
astronaut's life or the lives of his family that is not completely,
thoroughly, and rigorously quantified and analyzed by NASA scientists, and
then recorded on every available media including film. This of course, is
done long before the commercial news media gets a chance to microscope these
poor people.  That's a fact that pretty much everybody even remotely
connected with NASA knows.  The actual need for any fictionalized account is
a fiction in and of itself.

I also know that working for a film company in any capacity is a lot of hard
work, but it is also one of the funnest, and exciting things you can do.  I
did it myself for an outfit called Harvest Productions, but it wasn't for
money.  It was to raise the awareness of the horrible plight of the Mexican
migrant workers living in this country, and working for the large food
processing corporations. There wasn't any need for actors, the real people
did just fine.  Movies are nothing but a blast to do, even as a volunteer.
If you are young, and have the opportunity to get involved with one, I
highly recommend the experience.

As for the crews' endorsement of the film, I have no doubt that they loved
it.  Tickets to the Hollywood premiere, being wined, dined, and jacked up by
Ron Howard and company, plus the chance to rub elbows with the stars must
have been quite heady fun, too.  Some of them may have even made a few bucks
on the deal, who knows.

The fact is though, my recommendation for the documentary still stands.  If
you haven't seen it, check with your PBS station or possibly your local
library.  You'll see that the Howard version is almost a word for word,
scene for scene commercial ripoff, purely for the sake of a profit.  It's
difficult for me to imagine that anyone who claims be an historian would
recommend a Hollwood account over the actual footage of the real thing, but
then there are a lot of things that are difficult for me to imagine.

Knuke

Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

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Halloween brings back memories of Outhouse Antics in rural Pennsylvania.

 http://www.mindspring.com/~dponder/pix08.htm

Might as well see what they have evolved to.  :-)


Regards,     Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 26 14:29:21 1999
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:22:32 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: "Apollo 13" DVD
In-Reply-To: <19991026193816265.AAA289 mail.lcia.com@lizard>
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Michael T Huffman wrote:

>Actually, there is *nothing* about an
>astronaut's life or the lives of his family that is not completely,
>thoroughly, and rigorously quantified and analyzed by NASA scientists, and
>then recorded on every available media including film.

This was discussed by the director and by Lovell and his wife in the voice
over (which is 2 hours, exactly as long as the movie). That is one of
points of the movie. It is about myths, and how we make heros of ordinary
people, and try to record small details as a way to understand and
commemorate them. You cannot "rigorously quantify" a person's soul, or the
reasons people act heroically, or the spirit of exploration. Such things
can only be captured by art: by novels, movies, and drama. Granted, this
movie is not immortal fiction  like "The Odyssey," but I think it is pretty
good. The director and actors had The Odyssey in mind, and made many
allusions to it. Lovell thinks this movie may have more influence on
posterity than the real archives. I think he feels that would be okay.


It's
>difficult for me to imagine that anyone who claims be an historian would
>recommend a Hollywood account over the actual footage of the real thing, but
>then there are a lot of things that are difficult for me to imagine.

Not difficult at all. They serve different purposes. The actual account
shows the facts, the movie or book shows what society made of the facts,
and what people chose to remember, and forget. That too is important. You
can learn a lot about what white people thought of the Civil War in 1930 by
watching "Gone With The Wind," even though you learn practically nothing
about the actual Civil War. You can learn Greek History from the Iliad and
Odyssey.


. . . Some of the special effect footage in the movie is so convincing,
NASA experts asked the director where he got it, and they asked if they
could borrow it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 26 19:44:44 1999
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To: sciclub-list eskimo.com
cc: tap-l <tap-l listserv.appstate.edu>, info@tinkersguild.com,
        list physics teaching <phys-l lists.nau.edu>
Subject: "The Amateur Scientist" columns on CDROM
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For those who haven't been following the SAS Forum closely, 
Shawn Carlson has started a company to scan all 70 years of Scientific
American amateur sci. columns and publish a CDROM.  They now have a
website:

  The Tinker's Guild
  http://www.tinkersguild.com/

  SAS Forum: Amateur Scientist on CDROM?
  http://earth.thesphere.com/SAS/WebX.cgi?13 ^298739@.ee6bc68/17

  SAS Forum login
  http://earth.thesphere.com/SAS/WebX.cgi?

They're still collecting advertizing revenue and working towards the $100K
necessary funding.  No predictions for when it will be released, but you
can sign up for their mailing list at the website above.

Here's the "contents" list:

"The Amateur Astronomer"-- Complete: Every one of "The Amateur Astronomer"
and "The Amateur Telescope Maker" columns by Albert Ingalls. 

"The Amateur Scientist"-- Complete: Every one of "The Amateur Scientist"
columns of Albert Ingalls, C. L. Stong, Jearl Walker and Shawn Carlson as
well as all guest authors, through 1998. Many of these articles will be
amended and corrected with detailed commentary by Shawn Carlson and
invited writers. 

Resource Directory: An interactive Resource Directory to link readers to
our AdvertisersU products and services. (See Opportunities For
Advertisers.) 

Classic Text on Instrument Building: Procedures in Experimental Physics by
John Strong, a classic and much sought-after reference on instrument
making. 

Classic Text on Vacuum Methods: A Manual of Vacuum Technique. This
renowned monograph provides everything an amateur needs to know to set up
their own high-quality vacuum system to achieve fantastically low
pressures in their home labs. 

Extensive Pop-Up Glossary: A pop-up glossary of science terms will be
integrated throughout the text. The user need only click on an obscure
word or phrase to see a clearly-written definition. 

Comprehensive Bibliography: A comprehensive bibliography of books cited in
the column as well as titles written or published by Advertisers that
could be of interest to amateur scientists. The bibliography will also
include published reviews of select books. These can be submitted by
Advertisers who sell books. (See Opportunities For Advertisers.) 

Special Commentary: by Shawn Carlson to provide key insights on some of
the more popular projects. 

TechBanners: Detailed additional technical information to supplement
individual topics. 

History of the Column: A brief history of the column and the people who
wrote it. 

Search Capability: AmSci-70 will be offer full search capability. Users
will be able to search for words or phrases anywhere in the text. Users
will also be able select projects by subject, age suitability, cost,
hazard level, relationship to other projects, and other criteria. 


PS, I couldn't find an index for the online version of SciAm's THE AMATEUR
SCIENTIST, so I put one together here:

  http://www.amasci.com/amateur/sciam1.html

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 21:38:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment
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> >Actually, not many of us read FUSION TECHNOLOGY (FT). It is not one of the
> >leading journals for in the fusion energy research fields.
>
[snip]
>    Please list the journals on fusion which "many of (you)" do read.

Speaking for myself, I read mainly:

   Physics of Plasmas
   Nuclear Fusion
   Plasma Physics and Controlled Fusion
   Physical Review Letters

I also learn a lot about my field by seminars and topical meetings.

=====
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 26 21:57:47 1999
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment
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> Fred Sparber thought that Mills' EUV lines would be obscured by the high 
> temperatures of hot fusion plasmas and wouldn't be seen unless looked for, 
> assuming they're there at such high temperatures.  

   Magnetically confined hot plasmas for fusion research are transparent to
all EM radiation, from wavelengths of a few mm and shorter. The plasmas are
not very bright. HOT plasmas at low densities aren't very bright, contrary to
common misbelief. I don't think that Mills' EUV lines would be obscured. We
see lines from trace elements.

   Laser imploded fusion plasmas are very dense and bright. 

> I don't know whether or not Mills claims that they should be, but he had to
> go to a lot of trouble to document them in his gas phase cells running at 
> much lower temperatures.  I wonder if any hot fusioneer has asked Mills 
> whether or not he thinks his EUV lines could be seen in hot fusion plasmas.
> 
> Michael, what are those EUV spectroscopes used for in hot fusion?  And is
> the 
> term EUV used for the same region of the spectrum that it is in
> astrophysics, 
> i.e., roughly 100 nm to 10 nm (1000 Å to 100 Å)?

   EUV = "extreme ultra violet". This is the wavelength range.

   The most common use of EUV spectroscopy is to identify and quantify the
constituents of the plasma. The EUV range tends to be sensitive to ions
formed in plasmas having temperatures of 10s to a few 100s of eV. Following
lines emitted by successivly higher ionization states and identifying from
where they are emitted allows one to measure how the ions in question diffuse
into the plasma, a process that is related to how ions diffuse outward, too.
Quantitative comparison of the intensities of two suitabily related lines
yields a measurement of the plasma electron temperature. The shape of the
continuum also yields a measurement of electron temperature. Doppler
broadening of lines yields measurement of the ion temperature, and Doppler
shift of the line yields the directed velocity of the ion. EUV lines come
only from the edge of fusion-hot plasmas. We use x-ray spectroscopy or
alternate methods to diagnose the plasma interior. Visible and near UV
radiation is generated only at the very cold edge of the plasma, or where the
plasma contacts condensed (solid or liquid) matter.

=====
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 26 23:51:22 1999
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>
>hamdi ucar posted an article which mentioned;

. The skin temperature was found to increase by 0.4-1.2°C after a 5-min
exposure to a magnetic field of 0.45 or 1.2 T

I saw the results of some similar research. If you view a person's face in
thermography, and then view them again while talking on a cell phone, you
will observe that the face gets cooler. The people who sent me this
literature were attempting to sell me a ceramic lump that attached to the
cell phone's antenna and reduced the effects of the cooling. The literature
package included the patent numbers of the ceramic lump. I will forward the
information if anyone is interested.

Thomas Malloy



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 27 01:06:49 1999
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Subject: sympathetic vibrational physics and the Tao
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I have a long time interest in the work of John E. W. Keeley. Dale Pond has
quite a website on the subject. One day I noticed a GIF he had done which
may explain the Tao. You can see it at the following URL on Dale Pond's
site http://www.svpvril.com/updates.html .

Those of you with an interest in waves should look through Dale's site.
Keeley made some interesting observations, unfortunately he created his own
language to explain it. I've spent many hours attempting to understand it.
If any of you would like to discuss this technology please email me.





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 27 02:59:25 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mills' Potassium Iodo Hydride Experiment
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 03:55:10 -0700
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Michael Schaffer wrote:

[Snip very astute comments on plasma brightness]

The Sun has a temperature range from ~3,000 K to ~30,000,000 K
and a density range of attograms to ~100 grams cubic centimeter,
and a heat ouput of 3.86E26 watts from it's ~1.44E27 cubic meter
volume.

IOW, an average heat output of ~ 0.27 watts per cubic meter.

If this heat output is taking place in the "Nuclear Reaction Zone" at say
1/1,000th
of the solar volume, it is running about 270 watts per cubic meter, where
the temperature is ~ 3E7 K and the density is at least 75 times as dense as
water which contains ~ 6.7E22 hydrogen atoms per cubic centimeter,
thus  it contains ~ 5.0E24 hydrogen atoms per cubic centimeter, and is
a VERY BRIGHT  plasma  indeed.

OTOH, agitating a bucket of water at ~ 400 deg K with some K2CO3 in it,
puts out  a few milliwatts of OU-CF-Hydrino Heat.....   :-)

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 27 05:12:27 1999
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:10:57 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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	released.
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Hi everybody,

This is the paper related to the http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9910062, On the Equivalence Principle and a Unified Description of Gravitation and Electromagnetism, released a week ago.

It is available at  http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9910095

Regards,

hamdi ucar



gr-qc/9910095

Title:    Proposed EXperiments to Test the Unified Description of
          Gravitation and Electromagnetism through a Symmetric Metric
Author:   Murat Özer

Abstract:
  If gravitation and electromagnetism are both described in terms of a
  symmetric metric tensor, then the deflection of an electron beam by a
  charged sphere should be different from its deflection according to
  the Reissner-Nordstr\"om solution of General Relativity. If such a
  unified description is true, the equivalence principle for the electric
  field implies that the photon has a nonzero effective electric
  charge-to-mass ratio and should be redshifted in an electric field and
  be deflected in a magnetic field. Experiments to test these predictions
  are proposed. (43kb)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 27 07:54:39 1999
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:46:52 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Sansbury's experiments on the nature of light
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>Mitchell -
>
>> ***{I get it: the energy simply vanishes into nothing at the source and
>> leaps back into existence again at the receiver, in violation of the
>> principle of continuity!
>
>I must admit I've never heard of the principle of continuity

***{I posted an explanation a week or so ago. I'm sending you a copy via
private e-mail. Once you understand the idea, I think you will see why it
clashes with Sansbury's concept, and, thus, why only one of them can be
true. Since the principle of continuity *cannot* be false, it follows that
the error must be Sansbury's. --MJ}***

", but who ever
>said the process Sansbury describes isn't continuous? It *is* action at a
>distance though. I can also visualize it, though with much difficulty, by
>the notion that influence of the waving charges at A already exists at the
>target B as a probability function which is only realized fully, or
>"collapsed" to some distinct and detectable value at d/c time later. Mess
>with it's propagation path at any time in the transaction from emission to
>absorbsion, and it will skew that probablility (it's value) is some
>observable way.
>
>It seems to me that it may be the traditional view of a photon flying
>through space that tends to generate a violation of the principle of
>continuity if I understand that phrase correctly (I probably don't), and
>sometimes creates problems for CoE too.
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

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October 27, 1999

Vortex,

Thanks to Mitch for the plug, BUT: The only recent CANADIAN tapes are of
the ICCF-7. The Ontario ACS tapes, which is the most recent, was in
California, USA -- not Ontario, Canada, unless I am misreading your
recommendation.

-AK-

Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>   Vorts:
>
>   To those interested in cold fusion, who want to know
> what is really going on [supplementing the
> detailed scientific literature, of course ;-)X  ],
> beg Akira Kawasaki to sell you a set of his tapes on
> the Canadian meeting last week with lectures from
> Fleischmann, Mills, Miles, Storms, ....  It is the
> latest in his series of these excellent tapes.
>
>   Although not edited or titled, that would be a small
> benefit compared with the fact that they were shot very well
> compared with some I have seen, and have both good
> visualization of the graphics and recording of the talks.
>
>     Mitchell Swartz



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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: [antigrav] Bees navigate by polarized light  Bees (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:18:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Reply-To: antigrav egroups.com
Subject: [antigrav] Bees navigate by polarized light  Bees (fwd)



	More bees


	There is a wonderful book, called "Bees" by von Frisch [I think
that is the spelling]  that should be required reading for bio.

	A wonderful parallel with history and science:

	Bees have segmented eyes and the segments are polarized.  The sun
gives off randomly polarized light and one aspect of this polarization is
lineal plane polarization ... this also goes through clouds on overcast
days and the bees can navigate.
	The history.  some of the North Europe and Viking navigators used
a mineral they called "Sunstone" which polarizes light.  The sunstone
can be used to see the polarization of the sun on cloudy days, just like
the bees!

	If you put a polarizing plane filter over the bees' nest you can
actually drive them around!

	I have used this method of encoding to do head position for
virtual reality.  For robotic guidance.  For encoding and decoding
communications and manifold position sensing.
	I also use it to teach the history, old and new, as was recounted,
above.

	There is a huge range of technologies solved by nature.  I have
used non camera velocity sensing for vehicles and other targets, passive
so it cannot be detected or jammed by using the mamalian vision methods.
	There are over 5,000 such biological solutions to puzzles in
catalog.
	Applied biology.

				J

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 10:51:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Reply-To: antigrav egroups.com
To: A Gravity <antigrav egroups.com>, antigrav@egroups.com,
    JNaudin509 aol.com, Larry Maurer <lmaurer@unitelnw.com>,
    Matti Pitkanen <matpitka pcu.helsinki.fi>
Subject: [antigrav] Bees


	Dear AG,

	Bees make an electric charge field when they fly.  This can be
received with a radio capable of the 1 cps to 8,000 cps of Natural radio.
also called Sferics.

				J


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 27 09:45:53 1999
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:25:32 -0700
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ca-ois.com>
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Subject: Re: Sansbury's experiments on the nature of light
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Mitchell Jones wrote:
> 
> >Mitchell -
> >
> >> ***{I get it: the energy simply vanishes into nothing at the source and
> >> leaps back into existence again at the receiver, in violation of the
> >> principle of continuity!
> >
> >I must admit I've never heard of the principle of continuity
> 
> ***{I posted an explanation a week or so ago. I'm sending you a copy via
> private e-mail. Once you understand the idea, I think you will see why it
> clashes with Sansbury's concept, and, thus, why only one of them can be
> true. Since the principle of continuity *cannot* be false, it follows that
> the error must be Sansbury's. --MJ}***
> 
 
Ummm...Mitchell, while I'm out on "parole" from your killfile I was
wondering if you would please send me a copy of your "principle of
continuity", too. After I read it I'll 
send it along to Sansbury and maybe we can have another lively
discussion. I've corresponded back and forth with Mr. S. going back a
few years now. 

BTW I have copies of the scope prints of his original experiment of the
same thing, using slower Pockel cells, and the effect is still
noticeable in those. If you are interested, I can send you the two gif
files of them and perhaps you can explain his results in terms of the
"Principle of Continuity", the "Dogs of Captialism", or 
whatever....

Jim O.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 27 10:03:44 1999
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At 08:04 AM 10/27/99 -0700, Akira Kawasaki wrote:
>October 27, 1999
>Vortex,
>Thanks to Mitch for the plug, BUT: The only recent CANADIAN tapes are of
>the ICCF-7. The Ontario ACS tapes, which is the most recent, was in
>California, USA -- not Ontario, Canada, unless I am misreading your
>recommendation.
>
>-AK-

  That is correct. Thank you again Akira

   Mitchell Swartz


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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Sansbury's experiments on the nature of light
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y

	It would be great if M Sansbury could give us a BBGB of exactly
how his experiment was set up.

	We have all written a LOT of stuff about something WE HAVE NOT
SEEN A DESCRIPTION OF!

	Like telephone-blind man's bluff charades

On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> Mitchell Jones wrote:
> > 
> > >Mitchell -
> > >
> > >> ***{I get it: the energy simply vanishes into nothing at the source and
> > >> leaps back into existence again at the receiver, in violation of the
> > >> principle of continuity!
> > >
> > >I must admit I've never heard of the principle of continuity
> > 
> > ***{I posted an explanation a week or so ago. I'm sending you a copy via
> > private e-mail. Once you understand the idea, I think you will see why it
> > clashes with Sansbury's concept, and, thus, why only one of them can be
> > true. Since the principle of continuity *cannot* be false, it follows that
> > the error must be Sansbury's. --MJ}***
> > 
>  
> Ummm...Mitchell, while I'm out on "parole" from your killfile I was
> wondering if you would please send me a copy of your "principle of
> continuity", too. After I read it I'll 
> send it along to Sansbury and maybe we can have another lively
> discussion. I've corresponded back and forth with Mr. S. going back a
> few years now. 
> 
> BTW I have copies of the scope prints of his original experiment of the
> same thing, using slower Pockel cells, and the effect is still
> noticeable in those. If you are interested, I can send you the two gif
> files of them and perhaps you can explain his results in terms of the
> "Principle of Continuity", the "Dogs of Captialism", or 
> whatever....
> 
> Jim O.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 27 12:35:01 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: [antigrav] Bees navigate by polarized light  Bees (fwd)
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 ollege.edu>
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John Schnurer wrote:

>	There is a wonderful book, called "Bees" by von Frisch [I think
>that is the spelling]  that should be required reading for bio.

That's Karl von Frisch (1886-1982). A great naturalist -- one of the best.
He won the Nobel Prize (1973) for his study of the social behavior of bees.
The Nobel is supposed to be for "practical" contributions, which is why
there is no prize in mathematics. It is hard to imagine a practical use for
bee behavior, but you never know; these days the almighty dollar finds its
way into every nook and cranny of science. Perhaps someone will find a way
to train bees to increase honey production or sting your enemies.

I have heard that the real reason there is no Noble prize for mathematics
is because Mrs. Nobel ran away with a mathematician, and Alfred held a
grudge against mathematicians forever after.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: Energy-sucking Sansbury
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On Sun, 24 Oct 1999, Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> Vorts,
> 
> Attached is an html document and some pictures I drew in order to
> illustrate my understanding of the Delayed Choice experiment, flawed as
> it may be. My argument is that the result of this experiment can be used
> for FTL signalling, but somehow every URL I look up about it says no,
> and I just cannot follow the reasoning. 

Hi Jim!  The problem is simple: we don't know when the photon was
originally emitted.  An atomic emitter sends out a long-term spherical
wave, and the presence of any photons is not guaranteed.  If present,
their location is unknown. All we can do is to prepare a "pumped" atom and
wait for it to deliver a single photon, but this is akin to radioactive
decay, and whether photon-emission has occurred or not is part of the
"quantum weirdness".  The atom emits the EM waves, and the waves fill all
the paths in the Michaelson Interferometer. If your opponent in the game
has detected a photon, you cannot know this until they send you a signal
at speed of c.  Until you receive that signal, you are still waiting for
the photon to hit YOUR detector at any moment.  Their detection of the
photon does not send you FTL information.

On the other hand, my gut feeling is that FTL technology might be hidden
in other places in all of the quantum weirdness.  After all, when one atom
detects a photon, somehow all of the other atoms know this.  Why?  Because
all of the other atoms were illuminated with the same EM waves, yet we
don't seen two atoms which each receive half of a photon.  Instead energy
is conserved, yet the number of photons is also conserved too.  That's the
central problem.


But what if the "photon" idea is entirely bogus to begin with?  WHat if
light is waves?  If so, then the light really does take both paths in the
beamsplitters, and it really does interfere with itself.

Without photons, a single "pumped" atom really does emit a sphere-wave in
all directions, and any other detector has the ability to respond to it. 
But then screwy things occur, since only one detector actually responds. 

It's only during "absorbtion" events that light seems to be made from
particles.  But we also leap to the conclusion that "emission" events are
particle-like events as well.

Have the people here read the "Energy-sucking Antenna" stuff?  I'm
asserting that the start-up phase of the "energy-sucking" process predicts
that an inert (non-oscillating)  resonant circuit can suddenly go "ping"
and swallow a hunk of energy from the illuminating waves.  A tiny circuit,
where the circuit size is far smaller than the wavelength, can experience
a runaway "chain reaction" where its present AC fields lead to rapid
absorbtion of EM waves, and rapid growth of the AC fields to a maximum. 
If atoms are like RLC (coil/capacitor) circuits, then a photon-absorbtion
event is actually nothing of the kind, and only waves are present, not
particles.

However, there is a problem.  If Quantum Mechanics is based on wrong
concepts, and if photons don't exist, then....

   We are back to square one!  We cannot explain the "ultraviolet 
   catastrophe, and we don't know how Planck's Constant arises, or
   what it implies about interactions between waves and atoms.


If atoms can take single "gulps" of energy from waves, then whenever an
atom emits a spherical wave-train, why don't ten other atoms each take a
"gulp" of 1/10 size?  Instead only one atom responds, and the "gulps" are
constant according to E=Hv.  But maybe we are going at this problem
totally wrong.  If there is some sort of FTL communication between the
atoms, then the transmitting-atom knows when one receiving-atom has
finally started to feel the outgoing waves, and it also knows when one
distant atom has undergone an energy-absorbtion event.

Or as I said before, maybe all the receiving-atoms get together and
randomly choose one of their number to pair off with the transmitting
atom.  Once this has occurred, the transmitter lowers its internal energy
by one photon's worth, while the receiver raises its internal energy by an
identical amount.

Heyyyyy.  This leads to an interesting experiment in FTL communications.
I remember an article about single-atom traps, where a single argon ion
was contained in a trap and observed with a microscope.  When illuminated
with a laser at the argon line-spectrum frequency, the atom was visible as
a dot, since it was continually absorbing and re-radiating light.  However
(and I don't recall this in detail), if the atom was given a pulse of some
other frequency, its electron was put into a metastable state, and the
atom became transparent to the green laser light until it decayed out of
that state.  When the decay occurred, the atom under the microscope went
"pop" and became visible again.  This is a Quantum Mechanical state
transition visible to the human eye!  "Quantum leaping" observed directly.

Suppose that a pair of trapped argon atoms is observed.  Suppose that one
of them is pumped into the metastable (transparent) state.  Suppose that
when it decays, the other atom receives that emitted photon and blinks out
of sight because it is now in the metastable state itself.

The big question: what is the delay between one atom losing the photon,
and the other one gaining it?  What if the atoms are far apart?

This would be a fairly difficult experiment to pull off.  If the two argon
atoms were coupled by a long fiber-opitic pipe, and were contained within
resonant cavities which won't allow that special frequency of photon to
escape, then perhaps we'd occasionally see one atom blink on (losing the
metastable state) while the other one blinks off (gaining that state.)
With a long F.O. pipe, we could see if the delay is hundreds of
microseconds, or whether it is zero.

If it is zero, then we have directly observed a Faster-than-light
phenomenon, and we have shown that whenever an atom absorbs a quantum of
energy, a distant transmitter-atom loses energy instantly.

This would have huge repercussions.  It would sho that atoms don't just
fling energy randomly out into space, but that they depend upon finding
distant matter with which to exchange "photons" once the EM waves have set
up the required conditions for FTL energy exchange between the two atoms.  

Hmmm.  Maybe the same experiment can be done with 100MHz  RLC resonators.
If we transmit RF between a pair of hi-Q resonators, and if we suddenly
throw a resistor across the "receiver", does the "transmitter" start
losing energy after a lightspeed delay, or does it experience the extra
loading instantly?


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 27 14:25:52 1999
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Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:02:17 -1000
Subject: Re: Sansbury's experiments on the nature of light
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick highsurf.com>
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Mitchell -

> ***{I posted an explanation a week or so ago. I'm sending you a copy via
> private e-mail. Once you understand the idea, I think you will see why it
> clashes with Sansbury's concept, and, thus, why only one of them can be
> true. Since the principle of continuity *cannot* be false, it follows that
> the error must be Sansbury's. --MJ}***

It doesn't necessarily follow, yet. Sansbury might have bungled the
experiment somehow. That's why replication is needed. But if he has the
experiment right, then his personal explanations for the results not
withstanding, the experiment *must* take precedence over theory, even
personal pet theories as well as broadly accepted theories. If light does
behave as his experiment shows, then it's the theories that are wrong.

Besides, I think you might be jumping the gun a bit to say that his results
would have to falsify your principle of continuity. Try to find a way to
describe the results within the context of your theory. For instance, a
perfectly continuous and very fast-propagating wave approximating action at
a distance could be building up in the aether until it reaches that
threshold where "photon events" happen at the target.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 27 18:53:33 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Sansbury's experiments on the nature of light
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>Mitchell -
>
>> ***{I posted an explanation a week or so ago. I'm sending you a copy via
>> private e-mail. Once you understand the idea, I think you will see why it
>> clashes with Sansbury's concept, and, thus, why only one of them can be
>> true. Since the principle of continuity *cannot* be false, it follows that
>> the error must be Sansbury's. --MJ}***
>
>It doesn't necessarily follow, yet. Sansbury might have bungled the
>experiment somehow. That's why replication is needed. But if he has the
>experiment right, then his personal explanations for the results not
>withstanding, the experiment *must* take precedence over theory, even
>personal pet theories as well as broadly accepted theories.

***{If by "theory" you refer to a *scientific* theory, then you are of
course correct, for in science experiment is the final arbiter. However, if
you intended to include the principle of continuity under the definition of
"theory," then you overgeneralize, because the principle of continuity is
an absolute truth, not a theory--which means: it is a truth of such a
general and fundamental nature that it forms a necessary part of the
support for any argument that might be used against it. Sansbury's
experiment cannot overturn the principle of continuity because without the
presumed validity of the principle of continuity, one would have no basis
for believing that the Sansbury experiment ever happened. --Mitchell
Jones}***

 If light does
>behave as his experiment shows, then it's the theories that are wrong.

***{Any experimental result that seems to clash with the principle of
continuity has been misinterpreted. Period. There are no ifs, ands, or buts
about it. Thus the principle of continuity provides us with an instrument
which we can, and must, use to screen out theories that are unacceptable.
By means of it, we can reject Sansbury's *interpretation* of his results
out of hand, without even bothering to examine the details of his
experiment. (Of course, while his notion of instantaneous motion of energy
from source to receiver is untenable, we can approximate that notion by
merely postulating that the energy is transferred from source to receiver
at immense velocities--e.g., at hundreds of millions of times the speed of
light, like gravity. Such a notion would not clash with continuity, and
thus would have to be dealt with experimentally rather than by apodictic
philosophical reasoning.) --MJ}***

>
>Besides, I think you might be jumping the gun a bit to say that his results
>would have to falsify your principle of continuity.

***{I didn't say that. Here, verbatum, is what I did say:

"An "explanation" which pulls down the entire structure of human knowledge,
including itself, is the antithesis of explanation in my book. Whatever the
correct interpretation of the Sansbury data may be, this is not it. I guess
I will have to check out the url you posted (i.e.,
http://www.bestweb.net/~sansbury/), and see if I can come up with an
alternative framework. Thanks for expanding on your original post.  --MJ "

As you see, I did not deny Sansbury's *results*, but rather his
*explanation* of those results.

--Mitchell Jones}***

Try to find a way to
>describe the results within the context of your theory. For instance, a
>perfectly continuous and very fast-propagating wave approximating action at
>a distance could be building up in the aether until it reaches that
>threshold where "photon events" happen at the target.

***{Yes, of course. But that is not Sansbury's theory as you described it.
As I said at the beginning, that theory *must* be wrong. --MJ}***

>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

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	What does the beetle bit picture look like.  ?

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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
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Subject: Re: Energy-sucking Sansbury
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William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:


>After all, when one atom
>detects a photon, somehow all of the other atoms know this.  Why?  Because
>all of the other atoms were illuminated with the same EM waves, yet we
>don't seen two atoms which each receive half of a photon.  Instead energy
>is conserved, yet the number of photons is also conserved too.  That's the
>central problem.
-
A reasonable "photon" free model must explain all of the current
experimental results, but is not required to agree with the current
photon based interpretation of those results. I agree that energy is
conserved, but why must we assume that the number of photons is
conserved. Perhaps some statistical (SED like) version of "photon"
conservation would be sufficient.
>
>But what if the "photon" idea is entirely bogus to begin with?  WHat if
>light is waves?  If so, then the light really does take both paths in the
>beamsplitters, and it really does interfere with itself.
>
-
Obviously, none of the wave like properties of light require any
additional explanation in the "photon" free model.
>
>Without photons, a single "pumped" atom really does emit a sphere-wave in
>all directions, and any other detector has the ability to respond to it.
>But then screwy things occur, since only one detector actually responds.
>
>It's only during "absorbtion" events that light seems to be made from
>particles.  But we also leap to the conclusion that "emission" events are
>particle-like events as well.
-
The emission event  probably cannot emit a pure sphere-wave
and probably has at least dipole directivity from a pure EM point
of view. Some emissions, such as those in a laser, since they are
phase coherent, may have strong EM directionality.
I don't think that there is any question, based on experimental evidence,
that both "emission" and "absorbtion"  events are quantized. I also
assume, with less evidence, that the quantizing influence is the ZPF.
>
>Have the people here read the "Energy-sucking Antenna" stuff?
-
I did.
>
>However, there is a problem.  If Quantum Mechanics is based on wrong
>concepts, and if photons don't exist, then....
>
>   We are back to square one!  We cannot explain the "ultraviolet
>   catastrophe, and we don't know how Planck's Constant arises, or
>   what it implies about interactions between waves and atoms.
>
>
>If atoms can take single "gulps" of energy from waves, then whenever an
>atom emits a spherical wave-train, why don't ten other atoms each take a
>"gulp" of 1/10 size?
-
Read Hal's paper on the stability of the ground state of the hydrogen atom.
-
>Instead only one atom responds, and the "gulps" are
>constant according to E=Hv.  But maybe we are going at this problem
>totally wrong.  If there is some sort of FTL communication between the
>atoms, then the transmitting-atom knows when one receiving-atom has
>finally started to feel the outgoing waves, and it also knows when one
>distant atom has undergone an energy-absorbtion event.
>Or as I said before, maybe all the receiving-atoms get together and
>randomly choose one of their number to pair off with the transmitting
>atom.  Once this has occurred, the transmitter lowers its internal energy
>by one photon's worth, while the receiver raises its internal energy by an
>identical amount.
-
Let's try not to include nonlocal properties as in QM, what we need to do
is explain why, without "photons" and with quantized absorption and
emission, the need for QM magic is absent.
-
Sansbury has given this matter a lot of thought and concluded that
only action at a distance can explain his results. I have not yet read his
long paper, but this may not be the only possible model that can
explain the experiment.
-
>Hmmm.  Maybe the same experiment can be done with 100MHz  RLC resonators.
>If we transmit RF between a pair of hi-Q resonators, and if we suddenly
>throw a resistor across the "receiver", does the "transmitter" start
>losing energy after a lightspeed delay, or does it experience the extra
>loading instantly?
-
One would not expect to find quantum effects that are measurable at
100 MHz. The proposed experiment should be easy to explain using
only classical EM. When we try to use QM here, we get strange
results like the emission of large numbers of "photons" in a fraction of a
cycle.
This is one of the reasons I want to associate quantum effects with
"emission" and "absorption"  events  that do not apply for standard
EM frequencies and antenna emission.
-
Regards,
-
George Holz                george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ          08805



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 27 22:09:49 1999
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I received this from a friend. I was a subscriber to the first Dilbert
newsletter until Mr. Adams canceled it. I think that he is funny, and since
this part involves physics I decieded to share it with you.

I wasn't aware that Einstein said that if I was traveling in a vehicle at
99% of the speed of light, that the light would still be racing ahead of me
at the speed of light, is this true?

>Subject: Dilbert Newsletter 26.0
>From: Scott Adams <dilbertnewsletter unitedmedia.com>
>Priority: normal
>Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 19:32:21 MDT
>
>Dilbert Newsletter 26.0
>------------------------
>
>To:     Dogbert's New Ruling Class (DNRC)
>From:   Scott Adams (scottadams aol.com)
>Date:   October 1999
>
>
>
>   Highlights:
>  ------------------------------------------------
>  - Crackpot Theory
>  - True Tales of Induhviduals
>  - Dilbert TV Show Premiere - New Night
>  ------------------------------------------------
>
>Here's a short newsletter mostly to tell you of the revised night
>of the Dilbert TV season premiere in the U.S.
>
>DNRC Status
>-----------
>
>As you know, after Dogbert conquers the planet, the people who
>subscribe to the Dilbert Newsletter will become Dogbert's New
>Ruling Class.  Those who are not in the DNRC (the Induhviduals)
>will be our domestic servants. When that day comes, DNRC members
>can pick their own professions.  I plan to become a crackpot.
>
>Crackpot is an excellent job because the expectations are so low.
>No one ever tells crackpots that they should be doing more.
>
>My particular field of crackpot expertise will be physics.  I think
>it will be easy to blend in with the real physicists.  In physics,
>lots of accepted theories make no sense and no one seems to care.
>Luckily I have unkempt hair and I wear glasses.  Add those
>qualities to my complete lack of social skills and I'm practically
>a scientist already.
>
>Did you know that if you got in a rocket ship and raced a beam of
>light, the light would always be faster than you by exactly the
>speed of light, no matter how fast you went?  It sounds like a
>crackpot idea but it's Einstein's theory.  Most scientists agree
>that Einstein is right even though it makes no sense.
>
>Einstein also figured out that time is slower for things that move
>fast.  In my ongoing quest to win the Nobel Prize without doing
>anything hard, I have developed a crackpot theory for why
>fast-moving things have slower time.
>
>Crackpot theory:
>
>Imagine an object moving between two points.  The normal view is
>that the object occupies each and every position on its path until
>it reaches its destination.  But the number of possible positions
>between any two points is infinite.  Does it make sense that an
>object could occupy infinite positions in space in a finite period
>of time?
>
>Let's say no, or else my crackpot theory falls apart.
>
>Under my crackpot theory, objects actually disappear and then
>reappear along their path. They only seem to move because it
>happens so quickly.  Slow objects pop into existence slightly ahead
>of their last position.  Fast objects pop into existence far ahead
>of where they were last; that's what makes them seem fast.  So for
>any given distance, the fast-moving objects pop into existence
>fewer times along the path, like a long-legged runner who needs
>fewer strides.
>
>A fast-traveling clock, for example, would have less time in
>existence to tick.  If you could see it whizzing past you, it would
>appear slow.
>
>Obviously all of this popping in and out of existence would have to
>be happening so fast we can't notice or measure it.
>
>It might seem impossible that objects pop in and out of existence.
>But physicists know that's exactly what happens in the super-tiny
>quantum world.  Matter jumps in and out of existence continually.
>Although large objects don't play by the same rules as the quantum
>world, the squirrelliness of the tiny world makes you question what
>you really know about anything.
>
>As with most of my theories, this one doesn't hold up to close
>scrutiny, but it's surprisingly resilient to casual criticism.
>Take your best shot.  I won't be able to respond to all your e-mail
>telling me why my theory is wrong, but I'll read them all.
>
>
>Pranks On Induhviduals
>----------------------
>
>Here's the best DNRC prank ever.
>
>Report:
>
>A co-worker of mine has SETI home running on his computer. This is
>software, distributed by SETI (Search for Extra-Terrestrial
>Intelligence), that will run on PCs as a screen saver and analyze
>chunks of data from a radio telescope looking for non-naturally
>occurring signals from outer space. The other day I copied the SETI
>analysis screen to Microsoft Paint and then edited it to contain a
>large alert message stating that ET signals had been discovered.  I
>also drew in a button that he could use to "Notify SETI
>Immediately." I left this image on his screen with a "red alert"
>sound running in the background.
>
>When he returned to his desk he was ecstatic to see that he had
>found ET life.  He called another co-worker over to witness the
>historic moment. Then he clicked the button and discovered what I'd
>done.
>
>He's now looking for an opportunity to slay me so this may be my
>last message to you.
>

>
>How to Subscribe to the Dilbert Newsletter
>------------------------------------------
>
>You can sign up for the free Dilbert Newsletter
>automatically. Send a blank e-mail to
>dilbert-text-on list.unitedmedia.com.
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 27 22:22:09 1999
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y

	A couple of items:

	Q:  If you could send a signal at 3 times C... what would you do
with it in these times?  Who would pay to have this ability? 

On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, William Beaty wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Oct 1999, Jim Ostrowski wrote:
> 
> > Vorts,
> > 
> > Attached is an html document and some pictures I drew in order to
> > illustrate my understanding of the Delayed Choice experiment, flawed as
> > it may be. My argument is that the result of this experiment can be used
> > for FTL signalling, but somehow every URL I look up about it says no,
> > and I just cannot follow the reasoning. 
> 
> Hi Jim!  The problem is simple: we don't know when the photon was
> originally emitted.  An atomic emitter sends out a long-term spherical
> wave, and the presence of any photons is not guaranteed.  If present,
> their location is unknown. All we can do is to prepare a "pumped" atom and
> wait for it to deliver a single photon, but this is akin to radioactive
> decay, and whether photon-emission has occurred or not is part of the
> "quantum weirdness".  The atom emits the EM waves, and the waves fill all
> the paths in the Michaelson Interferometer. If your opponent in the game
> has detected a photon, you cannot know this until they send you a signal
> at speed of c.  Until you receive that signal, you are still waiting for
> the photon to hit YOUR detector at any moment.  Their detection of the
> photon does not send you FTL information.
> 
> On the other hand, my gut feeling is that FTL technology might be hidden
> in other places in all of the quantum weirdness.  After all, when one atom
> detects a photon, somehow all of the other atoms know this.  Why?  Because
> all of the other atoms were illuminated with the same EM waves, yet we
> don't seen two atoms which each receive half of a photon.  Instead energy
> is conserved, yet the number of photons is also conserved too.  That's the
> central problem.
> 
> 
> But what if the "photon" idea is entirely bogus to begin with?  WHat if
> light is waves?  If so, then the light really does take both paths in the
> beamsplitters, and it really does interfere with itself.
> 
> Without photons, a single "pumped" atom really does emit a sphere-wave in
> all directions, and any other detector has the ability to respond to it. 
> But then screwy things occur, since only one detector actually responds. 
> 
> It's only during "absorbtion" events that light seems to be made from
> particles.  But we also leap to the conclusion that "emission" events are
> particle-like events as well.
> 
> Have the people here read the "Energy-sucking Antenna" stuff?  I'm
> asserting that the start-up phase of the "energy-sucking" process predicts
> that an inert (non-oscillating)  resonant circuit can suddenly go "ping"
> and swallow a hunk of energy from the illuminating waves.  A tiny circuit,
> where the circuit size is far smaller than the wavelength, can experience
> a runaway "chain reaction" where its present AC fields lead  to rapid
> absorbtion of EM waves, and rapid growth of the AC fields to a maximum. 
> If atoms are like RLC (coil/capacitor) circuits, then a photon-absorbtion
> event is actually nothing of the kind, and only waves are present, not
> particles.
> 
> However, there is a problem.  If Quantum Mechanics is based on wrong
> concepts, and if photons don't exist, then....
> 
>    We are back to square one!  We cannot explain the "ultraviolet 
>    catastrophe, and we don't know how Planck's Constant arises, or
>    what it implies about interactions between waves and atoms.
> 
	What is the "ultra violet catastophy?
> 

> If atoms can take single "gulps" of energy from waves, then whenever an
> atom emits a spherical wave-train, why don't ten other atoms each take a
> "gulp" of 1/10 size?  Instead only one atom responds, and the "gulps" are
> constant according to E=Hv.  But maybe we are going at this problem
> totally wrong.  If there is some sort of FTL communication between the
> atoms, then the transmitting-atom knows when one receiving-atom has
> finally started to feel the outgoing waves, and it also knows when one
> distant atom has undergone an energy-absorbtion event.

	You can probably do your light and shutter stuff woith a couple of
3 or 4 spools of optical fiber. 


> 
> Or as I said before, maybe all the receiving-atoms get together and
> randomly choose one of their number to pair off with the transmitting
> atom.  Once this has occurred, the transmitter lowers its internal energy
> by one photon's worth, while the receiver raises its internal energy by an
> identical amount.
> 
> Heyyyyy.  This leads to an interesting experiment in FTL communications.
> I remember an article about single-atom traps, where a single argon ion
> was contained in a trap and observed with a microscope.  When illuminated
> with a laser at the argon line-spectrum frequency, the atom was visible as
> a dot, since it was continually absorbing and re-radiating light.  However
> (and I don't recall this in detail), if the atom was given a pulse of some
> other frequency, its electron was put into a metastable state, and the
> atom became transparent to the green laser light until it decayed out of
> that state.  When the decay occurred, the atom under the microscope went
> "pop" and became visible again.  This is a Quantum Mechanical state
> transition visible to the human eye!  "Quantum leaping" observed directly.
> 
> Suppose that a pair of trapped argon atoms is observed.  Suppose that one
> of them is pumped into the metastable (transparent) state.  Suppose that
> when it decays, the other atom receives that emitted photon and blinks out
> of sight because it is now in the metastable state itself.
> 
> The big question: what is the delay between one atom losing the photon,
> and the other one gaining it?  What if the atoms are far apart?
> 
> This would be a fairly difficult experiment to pull off.  If the two argon
> atoms were coupled by a long fiber-opitic pipe, and were contained within
> resonant cavities which won't allow that special frequency of photon to
> escape, then perhaps we'd occasionally see one atom blink on (losing the
> metastable state) while the other one blinks off (gaining that state.)
> With a long F.O. pipe, we could see if the delay is hundreds of
> microseconds, or whether it is zero.
> 
> If it is zero, then we have directly observed a Faster-than-light
> phenomenon, and we have shown that whenever an atom absorbs a quantum of
> energy, a distant transmitter-atom loses energy instantly.
> 
> This would have huge repercussions.  It would sho that atoms don't just
> fling energy randomly out into space, but that they depend upon finding
> distant matter with which to exchange "photons" once the EM waves have set
> up the required conditions for FTL energy exchange between the two atoms.  
>                     
> Hmmm.  Maybe the same experiment can be done with 100MHz  RLC resonators.
> If we transmit RF between a pair of hi-Q resonators, and if we suddenly
> throw a resistor across the "receiver", does the "transmitter" start
g> losing energy after a lightspeed delay, or does it experience the extra
> loading instantly?
> 
> 
> ((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 27 23:33:09 1999
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Subject: Re: Energy-sucking Sansbury
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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John -

> You can probably do your light and shutter stuff woith a couple of
> 3 or 4 spools of optical fiber.

Don't think so. Each atom is an absorber and emitter of photons. Only the
space between atoms would be 'valid', and that's a sueless distance for the
experiment. Needs several yards of vacuum (or maybe air).

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 28 04:30:13 1999
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

> *******************************************
> The mathematical framework of physics consists of mathematical constructs
> that have been deliberately fitted to experimentally determined data
> points. "Quantum mechanics" is an attempt to interpret those curve fitted
> mathematical constructs in accordance with the notion of discontinuous
> motion. Thus when experimentally measured data points fail to show certain
> states--e.g., electrons in "non-preferred" orbits, or particles having
> "in-between" spin--the proponent of quantum mechanics concludes that the
> transition from one state to another takes place without passage through
> the intervening states. By this way of thinking, an electron does not get
> from one "preferred" orbit to another by passing through the in-between
> orbits, but rather by simply vanishing from its position in one orbit and
> reappearing in another one. And, similarly, a particle does not go from
> "spin up" to "spin down" by gradually changing its spin axis, in the manner
> of a top, a gyroscope, a "curve ball," or some other macroscopic object,
> but rather simply vanishes from its first spin state and reappears with the
> opposite one. Motion in the microcosm, by this view, is discontinuous.
> 
> The alternative view of the microcosm, which I call *continuum mechanics*
> (and which is in keeping with the classical approach to physics), is that
> the dearth of measured data points indicating transitional states does not
> mean those states do not exist, but merely means they are too brief to be
> measured with contemporary instruments. Importantly, note that when a
> proponent of "quantum mechanics" denies such an interpretation, he cannot
> do so on scientific grounds. The reason: such a denial constitutes a
> statement about matters that have not been measured. Result: such a denial,
> at root, is a statement about metaphysics, and thus must be evaluated on
> philosophical grounds. Further, since the claim that the transitional
> states do not exist is equivalent to the claim that entities can leap into
> existence out of nothing and vanish into nothing, it follows that we can
> evaluate "quantum mechanics" by analyzing the consequences of that claim.
> 
> Unfortunately for the proponents of "quantum mechanics," the principle that
> *no thing may come into existence out of nothing or vanish into
> nothing*--which I will hereafter refer to as *the principle of
> continuity*--is part of the foundation upon which the entire structure of
> human knowledge rests. If we assume that the principle of continuity is
> invalid, or even that it *may* be invalid, then we lose all basis for
> believing in the the existence of anything, including our minds, our
> bodies, the external world, science, and, yes, even "quantum mechanics."
> 

Well, I don't think quatum mechanics postulates that * a thing (or
object) may come into existence out of nothing or vanish into nothing*.
I don't know where you read this or heard about this as being a
"postulate" of QM. It isn't in any of the literature I have on the
subject at least. If you have a reference for this exact statement
please tell us what it is.  

In any mathmatical system of coordinates describing a the location of a 
physical object or collection of objects such as electrons, there are
necessarily limitations to the VARIETY of possible locations for such
objects that can be described BY and WITHIN THAT COORDINATE SYSTEM. 

 For example, take the latitude and longitude grid coordantes for
locating objects on the surface of the earth. If the object were to
actually be located below the surface of the earth, or in the upper
atmosphere, the less accurate a simple grid coordinate system of
locating the object will be. This does not mean that if the object rises
high into the atmosphere, or into outer space, that it vanishes into
nothing, it simply means that the mathematical construct (the grid
goordinate system) is no longer usefull in describing the location of
the object.      

QM instead posulates that the location of particular objects is a
function of psi value for the object, which is it's probability density
or wavefunction. 

More specifically, The rule is:

"The value of psi for an object at a certain place and time is
proportional to the probability of finding the object at that place and
at the time" (Beiser- "Physics"
pg 726)  

It's just that simple. Objects in various kinds of oscillatory or linear
motion all have psi values in their QM "coordinate system" of describing
their location, but these values whether they be immense or tiny do not
imply that objects can come into existence from "nothing" or vanish from
existence into "nothing".

Regarding your discussion of how do we know we really exist, we only
percieve the existence of ourselves and other people and objects by
means of thier consistency with the "coordinate system" of our
"consciousness'" "reality map". The images on our retinas is actually
inverted from the way our mind's reality map pervieves the image there,
but this is merely an electrical neuronal trick, the same thing can be
done with fiberoptic cables of machinery the function of which is
interpret
projected images.

But the interesting fact is that consciousness itself is not at all
bound by any such "principle"  of "continuity" as you propose. We sleep
and dream up things that obvoiusly do not exist in our waking "reality
map", 
where do our dream images come from? Where do they go when we wake up? 
 
 It is rather easy for things to "vanish" into nothing or come onto
existence out of "nothing" as far as our mind's own "reality map" or
"coordinate system" is able to discern. Where did Debussy's "Claire De
Lune" come from? Debusey's "Concscioussness"? Where is Debusey's
"conssciousness" now? 

Vanished into "nothing"? 

(snip)
   
> Thus, by the
> continued application of the quantum mechanical premise that things can
> come into existence out of nothing and vanish into nothing, we are forced
> to conclude that the entire structure of our knowledge rests on the denial
> of that premise--which means: if "quantum mechanics" is presumed to be
> true, then the entire structure of our knowledge, including "quantum
> mechanics," collapses.
> 

QM makes no such argument (that "things" can come into existence out of
nothing or vanish into nothing, that I am aware of. However, this is not
the same thing  as saying that things cannot "vanish" into the "unknown"
and similarly appear out of the same unknown. The last person who told
me that he knew everything drove a potato chip trcuk for a living....

> Bottom line: either we can know nothing whatever, or else "quantum
> mechanics" is false.

  Quantum Mechanics is merely an attempt to predict outcomes by means of
studying probabilities. This does not fit into a context of true or
false, but rather likely or unlikelyhoods. It is a perfecly valid way to
try to cope with otherwise unexplained or "unknown" processes or
mechanisms.

Jim Ostrowski

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From: "JEAN DELAGARDE" <jlagarde cyberaccess.fr>
Subject: Boscoli
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Vortex

Could Gene Mallove tell us what is the situation about Boscoli ? IE #27
announced a "September surprise" due to appear on IE website with the
necessary details of this invention (whose patent is very difficult to
understand). We are at the end of October and there is still nothing on the
website except a statement that "This information will be posted shortly".
Should we conclude that there is something going wrong ?
                                                Jean DeLagarde


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 28 06:43:12 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Boscoli
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JEAN DELAGARDE wrote:

>Could Gene Mallove tell us what is the situation about Boscoli ? IE #27
>announced a "September surprise" due to appear on IE website . . .

Gene is in Italy, meeting with Boscoli. He should report next week.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 28 07:05:16 1999
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References: <199910271723819.SM00238 [192.168.0.2]>
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

<snip>

> Besides, I think you might be jumping the gun a bit to say that his results
> would have to falsify your principle of continuity. Try to find a way to
> describe the results within the context of your theory. For instance, a
> perfectly continuous and very fast-propagating wave approximating action at
> a distance could be building up in the aether until it reaches that
> threshold where "photon events" happen at the target.

There is a post quantum theory which explains action at a
distance by "back action" in time.  The classic experiment were
two particles are emitted and neither particle's spin is
determined until one is measured is explained by the spin
information being sent back in time to when the two particles
were together.

There's lots of discussion along this line at:

http://listserv.arizona.edu/lsv/www/quantum-mind.html

the Quantum Mind listserver archive.

Terry

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John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> y
> 
>         A couple of items:
> 
>         Q:  If you could send a signal at 3 times C... what would you do
> with it in these times?  Who would pay to have this ability?

Being able to control remote vehicles on distant planets with
reduced loop delay would greatly enhance unmanned planetary
exploration.  For a more local application, reduced loop delay
could help move the fighter pilot from the airplane to the
airbase, something which is already under development.

Terry

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	Dear Vo.,

	I think I mssed a bit of the thread...

	Who is Boscoli? Please

On Thu, 28 Oct 1999, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> JEAN DELAGARDE wrote:
> 
> >Could Gene Mallove tell us what is the situation about Boscoli ? IE #27
> >announced a "September surprise" due to appear on IE website . . .
> 
> Gene is in Italy, meeting with Boscoli. He should report next week.
> 
> - Jed
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 28 10:47:57 1999
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: The "Principle of Continuity"
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:

***{Note: for the benefit of those who may not have read this the first
time it was posted, I have restored the deleted portions, below. --MJ}***

>
>>*******************************************
>>The mathematical framework of physics consists of mathematical constructs
>>that have been deliberately fitted to experimentally determined data
>>points. "Quantum mechanics" is an attempt to interpret those curve fitted
>>mathematical constructs in accordance with the notion of discontinuous
>>motion. Thus when experimentally measured data points fail to show certain
>>states--e.g., electrons in "non-preferred" orbits, or particles having
>>"in-between" spin--the proponent of quantum mechanics concludes that the
>>transition from one state to another takes place without passage through
>>the intervening states. By this way of thinking, an electron does not get
>>from one "preferred" orbit to another by passing through the in-between
>>orbits, but rather by simply vanishing from its position in one orbit and
>>reappearing in another one. And, similarly, a particle does not go from
>>"spin up" to "spin down" by gradually changing its spin axis, in the manner
>>of a top, a gyroscope, a "curve ball," or some other macroscopic object,
>>but rather simply vanishes from its first spin state and reappears with the
>>opposite one. Motion in the microcosm, by this view, is discontinuous.
>>
>>The alternative view of the microcosm, which I call *continuum mechanics*
>>(and which is in keeping with the classical approach to physics), is that
>>the dearth of measured data points indicating transitional states does not
>>mean those states do not exist, but merely means they are too brief to be
>>measured with contemporary instruments. Importantly, note that when a
>>proponent of "quantum mechanics" denies such an interpretation, he cannot
>>do so on scientific grounds. The reason: such a denial constitutes a
>>statement about matters that have not been measured. Result: such a denial,
>>at root, is a statement about metaphysics, and thus must be evaluated on
>>philosophical grounds. Further, since the claim that the transitional
>>states do not exist is equivalent to the claim that entities can leap into
>>existence out of nothing and vanish into nothing, it follows that we can
>>evaluate "quantum mechanics" by analyzing the consequences of that claim.
>>
>>Unfortunately for the proponents of "quantum mechanics," the principle that
>>*no thing may come into existence out of nothing or vanish into
>>nothing*--which I will hereafter refer to as *the principle of
>>continuity*--is part of the foundation upon which the entire structure of
>>human knowledge rests. If we assume that the principle of continuity is
>>invalid, or even that it *may* be invalid, then we lose all basis for
>>believing in the the existence of anything, including our minds, our
>>bodies, the external world, science, and, yes, even "quantum mechanics."
>>
>>Such a state of affairs becomes immediately apparent when we ask ourselves
>>how we know that our sensations have sources. For example, how do you know
>>that, when you see a dog, those sensations are coming from an entity in the
>>external world? After all, if it is possible that sensations may leap into
>>existence out of nothing, then the dog, or the painting of a dog, or
>>whatever you thought you were looking at, may not exist at all. Result:
>>since we know of the existence of the external world by means of sensations
>>that we presume are coming from that world, it follows immediately that
>>without the premise that *no thing may come into existence out of nothing
>>or vanish into nothing*, we lose all basis for believing in the existence
>>of the external world. And, similarly, we lose all basis for believing that
>>our bodies exist. After all, we think we have arms, legs, lips, teeth,
>>etc., only because of sensations which we receive from those structures;
>>and, obviously, if those sensations are leaping into existence out of
>>nothing, then the structures in question do not exist. Likewise, we believe
>>in the existence of our own minds for similar reasons: we receive certain
>>sensations which we label as "memories" on the assumption that they come
>>from a storage area located somewhere in the "mind"; we receive sensations
>>from images which we presume to come from a "faculty of imagination," also
>>located in the "mind." Etc. But, if those sensations are merely leaping
>>into existence out of nothing, then the presumed storage areas, faculties,
>>etc., clearly do not exist. Result: we thereby lose all basis for believing
>>in the existence of the "mind," and, thus, of the self. Thus, by the
>>continued application of the quantum mechanical premise that things can
>>come into existence out of nothing and vanish into nothing, we are forced
>>to conclude that the entire structure of our knowledge rests on the denial
>>of that premise--which means: if "quantum mechanics" is presumed to be
>>true, then the entire structure of our knowledge, including "quantum
>>mechanics," collapses.
>>
>>Bottom line: either we can know nothing whatever, or else "quantum
>>mechanics" is false.
>>*******************************************
>>
>
>Well, I don't think quatum mechanics postulates that * a thing (or
>object) may come into existence out of nothing or vanish into nothing*.
>I don't know where you read this or heard about this as being a
>"postulate" of QM. It isn't in any of the literature I have on the
>subject at least. If you have a reference for this exact statement
>please tell us what it is.

***{Most material dealing with "quantum mechanics" is concerned with
teaching students how to use mathematical constructs that have been
deliberately fitted to experimental data points, and, as such, has nothing
whatever to do with quantum mechanics per se. (Curve fitted mathematical
constructs have no philosophy, and will give the same answers to a
proponent of classical mechanics as they give to proponents of quantum
mechanics. No school of physics has a better claim to them than any other.)
To find material dealing with the conceptual foundations of QM, you need to
read the philosophical musings of its adherents, beginning with those of
Niels Bohr. A good place to start would be with *Niels Bohr: His Heritage
and Legacy*, by Jan Faye. [Kluwer Academic Publishers, 1991] Here are a few
quotes:

"Notwithstanding the difficulties which, hence, are involved in the
formulation of the quantum theory, it seems, as we shall see, that its
essence may be expressed in the so-called quantum postulate, which
attributes to any process an essential discontinuity, or rather
individuality, completely foreign to classical theories and symbolized by
Planck's quantum of action." [pg. 129]

Referring to the classical view, Bohr said: "[It] presupposes the
unrestricted divisibility of the course of the phenomena in space and time
and the linking of all steps in an unbroken chain in terms of cause and
effect." [pg. 129]

Or again: "The very recognition of the limited divisibility of physical
processes, symbolized by the quantum of action, has justified the old doubt
as to the range of our ordinary forms of perception, when applied to atomic
phenomena." [pg. 137]

Or again: "The finite size of the quantum of action is to blame for the
fact that the atomic system interacts with the measuring instrument in such
a way as to make the extent of the interaction indeterminable." [pg.
138-139]

Bottom line: quantum mechanics, at root, is a denial of the epistemological
validity of the principle of continuity, as I said.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>In any mathmatical system of coordinates describing a the location of a
>physical object or collection of objects such as electrons, there are
>necessarily limitations to the VARIETY of possible locations for such
>objects that can be described BY and WITHIN THAT COORDINATE SYSTEM.
>
> For example, take the latitude and longitude grid coordantes for
>locating objects on the surface of the earth. If the object were to
>actually be located below the surface of the earth, or in the upper
>atmosphere, the less accurate a simple grid coordinate system of
>locating the object will be. This does not mean that if the object rises
>high into the atmosphere, or into outer space, that it vanishes into
>nothing, it simply means that the mathematical construct (the grid
>goordinate system) is no longer usefull in describing the location of
>the object.
>
>QM instead posulates that the location of particular objects is a
>function of psi value for the object, which is it's probability density
>or wavefunction.
>
>More specifically, The rule is:
>
>"The value of psi for an object at a certain place and time is
>proportional to the probability of finding the object at that place and
>at the time" (Beiser- "Physics"
>pg 726)
>
>It's just that simple. Objects in various kinds of oscillatory or linear
>motion all have psi values in their QM "coordinate system" of describing
>their location, but these values whether they be immense or tiny do not
>imply that objects can come into existence from "nothing" or vanish from
>existence into "nothing".

***{True enough. If the math is interpreted in accordance with the quantum
theory, that is the implication; but if it is interpreted in accordance
with the classical view, there is no such implication. That's why the math
is irrelevant. As I said above, the curve fitted mathematical constructs of
physics cannot be claimed by the proponents of "quantum mechanics" any more
than by the proponents of classical mechanics. If you plug in the numbers
and manipulate the symbols according to the rules, you will get the correct
answer, regardless of whether you believe motion is continuous or
discontinuous. Thus the question of whether "quantum mechanics" is valid or
invalid has nothing to do with mathematics, but rather has to do with the
differences between the classical and the quantum worldviews. Simply put:
is motion continuous or discontinuous? As I noted in my brief essay, above,
the notion that it is, or can be, discontinuous, would devastate the entire
structure of human knowledge, including itself. Thus it, and any theory
which implies it, including "quantum mechanics," must be false. --Mitchell
Jones}***

>
>Regarding your discussion of how do we know we really exist, we only
>percieve the existence of ourselves and other people and objects by
>means of thier consistency with the "coordinate system" of our
>"consciousness'" "reality map". The images on our retinas is actually
>inverted from the way our mind's reality map pervieves the image there,
>but this is merely an electrical neuronal trick, the same thing can be
>done with fiberoptic cables of machinery the function of which is
>interpret
>projected images.
>
>But the interesting fact is that consciousness itself is not at all
>bound by any such "principle"  of "continuity" as you propose. We sleep
>and dream up things that obvoiusly do not exist in our waking "reality
>map",
>where do our dream images come from? Where do they go when we wake up?
>
> It is rather easy for things to "vanish" into nothing or come onto
>existence out of "nothing" as far as our mind's own "reality map" or
>"coordinate system" is able to discern. Where did Debussy's "Claire De
>Lune" come from? Debusey's "Consciousness"? Where is Debusey's
>"consciousness" now?
>
>Vanished into "nothing"?

***{The fact that we cannot specify in complete detail where each and every
sensation comes from, does *not* imply that those sensations may be leaping
into existence out of nothing. (Dream images come from faculties within the
mind--to wit: from the memory, the imagination, and the
subconscious--which, in turn, are seated within the physical brain. For
more detail, see a textbook on sensory psychology.) As I noted, the notion
that things may come into existence out of nothing or vanish into nothing
is simply untenable: if you suppose that it is possible, the entire
structure of human knowledge collapses, including the supposition itself.
--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>(snip)
>
>> Thus, by the
>> continued application of the quantum mechanical premise that things can
>> come into existence out of nothing and vanish into nothing, we are forced
>> to conclude that the entire structure of our knowledge rests on the denial
>> of that premise--which means: if "quantum mechanics" is presumed to be
>> true, then the entire structure of our knowledge, including "quantum
>> mechanics," collapses.
>>
>
>QM makes no such argument (that "things" can come into existence out of
>nothing or vanish into nothing, that I am aware of.

***{See above. --MJ}***

However, this is not
>the same thing  as saying that things cannot "vanish" into the "unknown"
>and similarly appear out of the same unknown.

***{True. This is the classical view. According to it, the intermediate
states--e.g., non-preferred orbits, in-between spins, etc.--exist, but are
simply too brief to be observed. --MJ}***

The last person who told
>me that he knew everything drove a potato chip truck for a living....

***{A rational man judges the opinions of others on the basis of logic and
evidence, not on the basis of professional status. --MJ}***

>
>> Bottom line: either we can know nothing whatever, or else "quantum
>> mechanics" is false.
>
>  Quantum Mechanics is merely an attempt to predict outcomes by means of
>studying probabilities. This does not fit into a context of true or
>false, but rather likely or unlikelyhoods. It is a perfecly valid way to
>try to cope with otherwise unexplained or "unknown" processes or
>mechanisms.

***{Incorrect. Probability theory was developed during the classical
period, and was widely employed by classical physicists. As noted above,
this issue has *nothing whatsoever* to do with mathematics. --MJ}***

>
>Jim Ostrowski

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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:16:37 -0400
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John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu> asked:

> Q:  If you could send a signal at 3 times C... what would you do
>with it in these times?  Who would pay to have this ability?
-

Supercomputers and high speed circuitry in general
often suffer from speed of light signal limitations.
1 GHz clock speeds on chip size computers will soon be
common, but transactions between chips and along bus
systems is very difficult due to speed of light signal limitations.
Some applications might also be found in data communications.
Of course, since standard physical theory says that this
result is impossible, the theoretical and experimental interest
in its achievement should be considerable.
-
John also notes:
>
> You can probably do your light and shutter stuff with a couple of
>3 or 4 spools of optical fiber.
 and Rick Monteverde replies:
>
>Don't think so. Each atom is an absorber and emitter of photons. Only the
>space between atoms would be 'valid', and that's a useless distance for the
>experiment. Needs several yards of vacuum (or maybe air).
-
In an optical fiber, the light is transferred without significant absorption
or
emission of photons, only refraction and/or total internal reflection are
used
to keep the photons in the fiber. These are pure EM effects and do  not
involve individual atoms of the material which are small compared to the
wavelength. I think that your comment might apply in the case of
coaxial cable, where the conduction electrons are involved in
wave propagation. Of course, Sansbury's theory is not conventional
EM and free space transmission could differ from transmission inside
matter.
-
George Holz                george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ          08805





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 28 13:47:18 1999
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Subject: Re: Energy-sucking Sansbury
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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George -

> In an optical fiber, the light is transferred without significant absorption
> or
> emission of photons, only refraction and/or total internal reflection are
> used
> to keep the photons in the fiber.

Well then I've had this huge misconception about light transmission through
transparent materials. I thought it was where an atom of the material
excited by a photon absorbtion always released the energy 180 degrees from
the original direction. The refraction of light near the outer sheath of a
light fiber due to its increased refractive index above that of the material
nearer the core works on the wave principle of light as opposed to the
particle view of light, so that does tend to introduce confusion. But you
also describe reflection as if the original photon just "bounces" off a
surface, again not my understanding of what happens. As far as Sansbury's
experiment is concerned, I think we want to find out something about what
actually happens to a "free flying photon" between emitter and absorber, so
all atomic interactions between those two primary sources should be avoided.
I even think air may be blurring his results.

Have I got this all wrong?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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Subject: Re: Sansbury's experiments on the nature of light
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Terry -


> The classic experiment were
> two particles are emitted and neither particle's spin is
> determined until one is measured is explained by the spin
> information being sent back in time to when the two particles
> were together.

This is what I've been using personally as an aid in visualizing what's
supposed to be happening in Sansbury's experiments. I don't like it though
as an attempt to describe what actually happens in nature any more than I
like photons, so I haven't mentioned it lately. Sort of collected it from
Bearden's time reversed wave principle, so it's heritage is tainted too <g>.
But it does help me a little bit - from the transmitter, half the energy
goes from the present back into the past, and half goes forward into the
future. When they are fully resolved and meet up at the "present time" in
the absorber's reference frame, they sum up as if it was all from a
conventional photon moving at c. But if one of those spooky time-halves is
blocked during propagation like in Sansbury's setup, you would only get half
the light in the end. But this isn't exactly what Sansbury gets either,
so...

Sorry gotta go, I got a lot of potato chips to deliver.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Terry -
> 
> > The classic experiment were
> > two particles are emitted and neither particle's spin is
> > determined until one is measured is explained by the spin
> > information being sent back in time to when the two particles
> > were together.
> 
> This is what I've been using personally as an aid in visualizing what's
> supposed to be happening in Sansbury's experiments. I don't like it though
> as an attempt to describe what actually happens in nature any more than I
> like photons, so I haven't mentioned it lately. Sort of collected it from
> Bearden's time reversed wave principle, so it's heritage is tainted too <g>.

<snip>

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I believe it was Dr. David
Bohm who first proposed back action to explain events outside the
light cone.  I kinda like it because it explains a lot of ESP
events, particularly an experiment by Dr. Radin, formerly of the
Univ. of Nevada.  He showed people various images on a PC monitor
while measuring their biometric reactions.  He found that certain
subjects exhibited reactions up to one second BEFORE viewing the
particular image.

Terry

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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
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Subject: Re: Energy-sucking Sansbury
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 18:09:10 -0400
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Rick,
>
>Well then I've had this huge misconception about light transmission through
>transparent materials. I thought it was where an atom of the material
>excited by a photon absorbtion always released the energy 180 degrees from
>the original direction.
-
You are the only source from which I have ever heard this idea. Transparent
materials do not have absorption bands, by definition, at frequencies where
 they are transparent. As far as I know, only laser like actions allow
absorption
and re-emission of a photon without scattering.
-
>The refraction of light near the outer sheath of a
>light fiber due to its increased refractive index above that of the material
>nearer the core works on the wave principle of light as opposed to the
>particle view of light, so that does tend to introduce confusion. But you
>also describe reflection as if the original photon just "bounces" off a
>surface, again not my understanding of what happens.
-
Early fiber designs used total internal reflection due to the index difference
between the fiber and a thin lower index coating or air to channel the
"photons".
The graded index fibers are newer and have far lower attenuation due
to the lack of sensitivity to surface imperfections.

>As far as Sansbury's
>experiment is concerned, I think we want to find out something about what
>actually happens to a "free flying photon" between emitter and absorber, so
>all atomic interactions between those two primary sources should be avoided.
>I even think air may be blurring his results.
-
I think standard theory would predict that there should be no significant
difference other than changes in C with refraction index between "photon"
propagation inside or outside fiber. I still haven't read the Sansbury "book"
so I don't know if this would be different in his model.
-
George

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Subject: Re: Sansbury's experiments on the nature of light
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
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Terry -

> He found that certain
> subjects exhibited reactions up to one second BEFORE viewing the
> particular image.

Did the experimenter know which image was coming up?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 28 17:10:38 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 19:00:34 -0500
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Sansbury's experiments on the nature of light
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>If it [principle of continuity] is wrong, or even if it *may* be
>wrong, then WE HAVE NO BASIS FOR BELIEVING IN THE EXISTENCE OF ANYTHING,
>including Sansbury, or his experiment, or his interpretation of his
>experiment. (It's real sad! :-) --MJ}***
>
>Hi Mitchell,
>
>How is the principle of continuity required to "believe", along
>with Democritus, that "All that exists are atoms and the void ..."?
>
>Jack Smith

***{I assume that you didn't see the original essay. Check out my recent
response to Jim O. I have reposted it there. (And, yes: all that exists are
particles and the void. :-) --MJ}***


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 28 17:30:27 1999
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On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, George Holz wrote:

> William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:
> >is conserved, yet the number of photons is also conserved too.  That's the
> >central problem.
> -
> A reasonable "photon" free model must explain all of the current
> experimental results, but is not required to agree with the current
> photon based interpretation of those results.

Of course!  ;)

> I agree that energy is
> conserved, but why must we assume that the number of photons is
> conserved. Perhaps some statistical (SED like) version of "photon"
> conservation would be sufficient.

By "number of photons is conserved" I mean that photons would be like a
"stuff", where one atom emits a photon, the photon is out there somewhere,
and a distant atom later intercepts it.  I strongly agree that there might
be other mechanisms which could mimic this effect when averaged over many
interactions, yet for each interaction it need not be true.  Wouldn't this
lead to short-term violations of COE as well?  If E=Hv, and each
photon-absorbtion WAS NOT caused by an earlier photon emission, then each
event would also violate COE.  In other words, an atom could be in the act
of emitting waves, yet it would not lose any photon-quanta, yet a distant
atom would feel the waves and gain a photon quantum.  Realworld example:
radioactive atom sends out gammas and causes a GM counter to go "click",
yet the atom has not yet decayed.  Over time, this sort of weirdness would
average out and we'd not suspect that it occurs.


> The emission event  probably cannot emit a pure sphere-wave
> and probably has at least dipole directivity from a pure EM point
> of view.

Yep, and a dipole emission is perfectly spherical, yet its radiation
pattern is max at the "equator" and null at the "poles."  The strength of
the fields does not change the fact that the "ripples" take the shape of
expanding spheres.  Antenna diagrams depict lobes, but we must not forget
that the propagating wavefronts themselves are spherical (at least in the
far field they are.) 


> Some emissions, such as those in a laser, since they are
> phase coherent, may have strong EM directionality.

A side topic: I've long been thinking about just this issue.  If the atoms
in a laser are randomly-oriented dipole emitters, then their
directionality is random, and they emit diffuse light... yet if they are
all phase-locked to the stimulating wave, then as a group they produce an
interference pattern which looks just like a laser beam.  In this way
their microscopic directionality could be unrelated to the macroscopic
wave-emission.  Their random orientations would average out.  It would be
like a phase-array antenna-farm where all of the dipoles had crazy angles
and aperiodic spacing, yet for a really huge antenna array it would make
no difference.  Although each atom in a laser might emit light off to the
sides, when vast numbers of atoms are involved, that light gets cancelled,
and only the "laser beam" survives.  Or said another way: for vast numbers
of closely-spaced atoms, there are no side lobes, so all of the light ends
up in the zero-order lobe.  Hmmm.  Maybe this is wrong, because it
predicts that the sparse atoms in a gas laser would behave differently
than a crystal laser if the doping of the crystal gave us a group of
lasing atoms where the space between atoms is << a wavelength.  But maybe
HeNe lasers DO behave differently, since gases scatter light via Tyndall
effect, and this would still apply to HeNe gas. 


> >If atoms can take single "gulps" of energy from waves, then whenever an
> >atom emits a spherical wave-train, why don't ten other atoms each take a
> >"gulp" of 1/10 size?
> -
> Read Hal's paper on the stability of the ground state of the hydrogen atom.


I'm out of touch.  Is this on Scott Little's site?  Or in a journal?



> >atom.  Once this has occurred, the transmitter lowers its internal energy
> >by one photon's worth, while the receiver raises its internal energy by an
> >identical amount [instantly].
> -
> Let's try not to include nonlocal properties as in QM, what we need to do
> is explain why, without "photons" and with quantized absorption and
> emission, the need for QM magic is absent.

Agreed.  From reading www articles, I see that the SED people seem down on
the Aspect-type experiments, and they don't believe that 'spooky action at
a distance' has really been demonstrated.  Be that as it may, we still
need to explain simple wave/particle phenomena such as double-slit
diffraction under low illumination (single photon.)  Maybe SED is wrong,
and only fields and vacuum-nonlinearities exist, with no point-particles
anywhere. 

> One would not expect to find quantum effects that are measurable at
> 100 MHz.

Not single-quantum effects, but "spooky coupling" effects instead.  When
an atom absorbs light, does the emitter know this instantly?  If so, then
perhaps when a resistor absorbs wattage, and if the coupling is across
vacuum (widely spaced transformer primary/secondary), then we could
measure a lack of lightspeed delay.  If there is FTL for single-photon
effects, maybe we can demonstrate it for large numbers too.  I'm
speculating about other macroscopic effects which aren't wiped out when
averaged over large numbers of interactions.  Here's a though: QM effects
involve resonant EM cavities.  Quantum transistions are associated with
state-changes in resonators.  Perhaps changes to macroscopic resonant
cavities are felt everywhere instantaneously too, and this sort of
nonlocal information transfer is behind Sansbury's observations.  (I seem
to recall that this sort of thing has been demonstrated with "giant atoms"
composed of superconducting rings with Josephson junctions, where the
resonance is disrupted everywhere at once, rather than having to propagate
at lightspeed.)

  SF connection: at one point in the 1st Star Trek movie, "Vee-ger" has
  fired its huge plasma-cloud thingy, but then it changes its mind and the
  propagating emission goes away.  More quantum-mechanical retroactive 
  cancellation.  It just has to close its Kerr-cell shutters, then the
  approaching wave never existed in the first place!  

:)


> The proposed experiment should be easy to explain using
> only classical EM. When we try to use QM here, we get strange
> results like the emission of large numbers of "photons" in a fraction of a
> cycle.
> This is one of the reasons I want to associate quantum effects with
> "emission" and "absorption"  events  that do not apply for standard
> EM frequencies and antenna emission.

Why would size necessarily matter, or number of photons matter?  In other
words, would Sansbury's experiment not work for some types of light
source?  Suppose we perform the Sansbury experiment at sub-millimeter
microwave frequencies using rectennas arrays fabbed on silicon.  It should
still work, no?  The big difference would be that the emitter "atoms" can
send out multiple photons associated with their waves, while this would
not be true of gas in a discharge tube.  (But it WOULD be true of lasers,
since the atoms are locked in coherence, and the laser light has multiple
photons just like a wave coming from a radio antenna.) 



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William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
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On Thu, 28 Oct 1999, John Schnurer wrote:

> y
> 
> 	A couple of items:
> 
> 	Q:  If you could send a signal at 3 times C... what would you do
> with it in these times?  Who would pay to have this ability? 

Wouldn't FTL devices destroy contemporary physics, and send large numbers
of frozen-concept researchers off the deep end?

Maybe the shattering of skepto-pathy would allow CF to get a bit of
funding before the mental barriers of the physics community were rebuilt
once again.   :)


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William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
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On Thu, 28 Oct 1999, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> George -
> 
> > In an optical fiber, the light is transferred without significant absorption
> > or
> > emission of photons, only refraction and/or total internal reflection are
> > used
> > to keep the photons in the fiber.
> 
> Well then I've had this huge misconception about light transmission through
> transparent materials.

One important point: "real" photon interactions involve single
frequencies. Refraction and reflection do not, therefore they are treated
with wave mechanics (or perhaps we imagine them to involve virtual
particles having too little energy to become "real"?) 

> As far as Sansbury's
> experiment is concerned, I think we want to find out something about what
> actually happens to a "free flying photon" between emitter and absorber, so
> all atomic interactions between those two primary sources should be avoided.
> I even think air may be blurring his results.

If fiberoptic switching equipment actually demonstrated Sansbury's
effects, and if RF pulses in coax did the same, then the question is
answered, and we have some cool toys to play with.  If these
"replications" do not work, then it says nothing about Sansbury's original
claim. 


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 28 18:05:37 1999
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On Thu, 28 Oct 1999, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Terry -
> 
> > He found that certain
> > subjects exhibited reactions up to one second BEFORE viewing the
> > particular image.
> 
> Did the experimenter know which image was coming up?

Definitely not.  It was intended to be skeptic-proof, so the whole thing
was automated, and used an average of numerous trials.  This is described
in THE CONSCIOUS UNIVERSE  See http://www.psiresearch.org



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William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 28 19:01:27 1999
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Keith Brady wrote:
> 
> > > Court Room Quotes
> > > Unbelievable, but  these are from a book called "Disorder in the Court."
> > > These  are things people actually said in court, word for word:
> > >
> > > Q:  What is your date of birth?
> > > A: July fifteenth.
> > > Q: What  year?
> > > A: Every year.
> > >  ---------------------------------------------------
> > > Q: What gear were  you in at the moment of the impact?
> > > A: Gucci sweats and  Reeboks.
> > > ---------------------------------------------------
> > > Q:  This myasthenia gravis, does it affect your memory at all?
> > > A:  Yes.
> > > Q: And in what ways does it affect your memory?
> > > A: I  forget.
> > > Q: You forget. Can you give us an example of something that  you've
> > > forgotten?
> > >  ---------------------------------------------------
> > > Q: How old is your  son, the one living with you.
> > > A: Thirty-eight or thirty-five, I can't  remember which.
> > > Q: How long has he lived with you?
> > > A:  Forty-five years.
> > >  ---------------------------------------------------
> > > Q: What was the  first thing your husband said to you when he woke that
> > > morning?
> > >  A: He said, "Where am I, Cathy?"
> > > Q: And why did that upset  you?
> > > A: My name is Susan.
> > >  ---------------------------------------------------
> > > Q: And where was  the location of the accident?
> > > A: Approximately milepost 499.
> > > Q:  And where is milepost 499?
> > > A: Probably between milepost 498 and  500.
> > > ---------------------------------------------------
> > > Q:  Sir, what is your IQ?
> > > A: Well, I can see pretty well, I think.
> > >  ---------------------------------------------------
> > > Q: Did you blow  your horn or anything?
> > > A: After the accident?
> > > Q: Before the  accident.
> > > A: Sure, I played for ten years. I even went to school for it.
> > > ---------------------------------------------------
> > > Q: Do you  know if your daughter has ever been involved in voodoo or the
> > >  occult?
> > > A: We both do.
> > > Q: Voodoo?
> > > A: We do.
> > > Q:  You do?
> > > A: Yes, voodoo.
> > >  --------------------------------------------------
> > > Q: Trooper, when you  stopped the defendant, were your red and blue
> > > lights flashing?
> > >  A: Yes.
> > > Q: Did the defendant say anything when she got out of her car?
> > > A: Yes, sir.
> > > Q: What did she say?
> > > A: What disco am I  at?
> > > ---------------------------------------------------
> > > Q: Now  doctor, isn't it true that when a person dies in his sleep, he
> > > doesn't  know about it until the next morning?
> > >  ---------------------------------------------------
> > > Q: The youngest son,  the twenty-year old, how old is he?
> > >  ---------------------------------------------------
> > > Q: Were you present  when your picture was taken?
> > >  --------------------------------------------------
> > > Q: So the date of  conception (of the baby) was August 8th?
> > > A: Yes.
> > > Q: And what  were you doing at that time?
> > >  ---------------------------------------------------
> > > Q: She had three  children, right?
> > > A: Yes.
> > > Q: How many were boys?
> > > A:  None.
> > > Q: Were there any girls?
> > >  ---------------------------------------------------
> > > Q: You say the  stairs went down to the basement?
> > > A: Yes.
> > > Q: And these stairs,  did they go up also?
> > > --------------------------------------------------
> > > Q: How was your first marriage terminated?
> > > A: By death.
> > >  Q: And by whose death was it terminated?
> > >  ---------------------------------------------------
> > > Q: Can you describe  the individual?
> > > A: He was about medium height and had a beard.
> > >  Q: Was this a male, or a female?
> > >  ---------------------------------------------------
> > > Q: Is your  appearance here this morning pursuant to a deposition notice
> > > which I  sent to your attorney?
> > > A: No, this is how I dress when I go to  work.
> > > ---------------------------------------------------
> > > Q:  Doctor, how many autopsies have you performed on dead people?
> > > A: All my  autopsies are performed on dead people.
> > >  ---------------------------------------------------
> > > Q: All your  responses must be oral, OK? What school did you go to?
> > > A: Oral.
> > >  ---------------------------------------------------
> > > Q: Do you recall the  time that you examined the body?
> > > A: The autopsy started around 8:30  p.m.
> > > Q: And Mr. Dennington was dead at the time?
> > > A: No, he was  sitting on the table wondering why I was doing an
> autopsy.
> > >
> > >  ---------------------------------------------------
> > > Q: Are you  qualified to give a urine sample?
> > ------------------------------------------------------
> > > Q: Doctor, before you performed the  autopsy, did you check for a pulse?
> > > A: No.
> > > Q: Did you check for  blood pressure?
> > > A: No.
> > > Q: Did you check for breathing?
> > >  A: No.
> > > Q: So, then it is possible that the patient was alive when you  began
> the autopsy?
> > > A: No.
> > > Q: How can you be so sure,  Doctor?
> > > A: Because his brain was sitting on my desk in a jar.
> > > Q:  But could the patient have still been alive nevertheless?
> > > A: Yes, it is  possible that he could have been alive and practicing law
> somewhere.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 28 21:05:32 1999
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Energy-sucking Sansbury
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William Beaty <billb eskimo.com wrote:

> A side topic: I've long been thinking about just this issue.  If the atoms
> in a laser are randomly-oriented dipole emitters, then their
> directionality is random, and they emit diffuse light... yet if they are
> all phase-locked to the stimulating wave, then as a group they produce an
> interference pattern which looks just like a laser beam.  In this way
> their microscopic directionality could be unrelated to the macroscopic
> wave-emission.  Their random orientations would average out.  It would be
> like a phase-array antenna-farm where all of the dipoles had crazy angles
> and aperiodic spacing, yet for a really huge antenna array it would make
> no difference.  Although each atom in a laser might emit light off to the
> sides, when vast numbers of atoms are involved, that light gets cancelled,
> and only the "laser beam" survives.  Or said another way: for vast numbers
> of closely-spaced atoms, there are no side lobes, so all of the light ends
> up in the zero-order lobe.  

  Yes, this is a good way to look at it.

> Hmmm.  Maybe this is wrong, because it
> predicts that the sparse atoms in a gas laser would behave differently
> than a crystal laser if the doping of the crystal gave us a group of
> lasing atoms where the space between atoms is << a wavelength.  But maybe
> HeNe lasers DO behave differently, since gases scatter light via Tyndall
> effect, and this would still apply to HeNe gas. 

  Gas lasers are coherent, just like solid state ones. The wave is coherent
and narrow for the same reasons. Although the gas might be about a million
times less dense, there is still 10^(large exponent) atoms around. 

> averaged over large numbers of interactions.  Here's a though: QM effects
> involve resonant EM cavities.  Quantum transistions are associated with
> state-changes in resonators.  Perhaps changes to macroscopic resonant
> cavities are felt everywhere instantaneously too, and this sort of
> nonlocal information transfer is behind Sansbury's observations.  (I seem
> to recall that this sort of thing has been demonstrated with "giant atoms"
> composed of superconducting rings with Josephson junctions, where the
> resonance is disrupted everywhere at once, rather than having to propagate
> at lightspeed.)

  Changes in a resonant system tend to occur together all throughout the
system. However, the change is slow. It takes about Q cycles for a change to
occur in a resonant system of any kind. So, if the size of the system is
electromagnetic and is about 1/2 wavelength in size, the change distributes
throughout the system at about c/(2Q) << c. Resonant systems are slow, not fast.

=====
Michael J. Schaffer


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 28 21:32:32 1999
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Subject: Re: Energy-sucking Sansbury
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There is a pair of interesting articles in Physics Today that ought to
interest some of you taking part in this discussion:

1. Sheldon Goldstein, "Quantum Theory without Observers-Part One," Physics
Today, (March, 1998) 42.

Header: "Despite the claims of most of the founding fathers, the appeal at a
fundamental level to observers and measurement, so prominent in orthodox
quantum theory, is not needed to account for quantum phenomena."

2. Sheldon Goldstein, "Quantum Theory without Observers-Part Two," Physics
Today, (April, 1998) 38.

Header: "The paradoxes of quantum theory can be resolved in a surprisingly
simple way: by insisting that particles always have positions and that they
move in a manner naturally suggested by Schrodinger's Equation."

Physics Today is a semi-technical, physics-news monthly magazine published by
the APS. 

I will refrain from commenting on the contents, because I am too busy to
reread the articles, for at least a month. 

=====
Michael J. Schaffer


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 28 21:39:11 1999
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From: Michael Schaffer <schaffermj yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Energy-sucking Sansbury
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Here is another interesting article in Physics Today on modern developments
in quantum mechanics:

Robert B. Griffiths and Roland Onmes, "Consistent Histories and Quantum
Measurements," Physics Today, (August, 1999) 26.

Header: "The traditional Copenhagen orthodoxy saddles quantum theory with
embarrassments like Schrodinger's cat and the claim that properties don't
exist until you measure them. The consistent-histories approach seeks a
sensible remedy."

I'm not expert at all in QM. However, the discussion is not over whether QM
predicts experiments or not (it does), but how we humans with our severely
limited, macroscopically conditioned intuitions can better understand it.

=====
Michael J. Schaffer


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 28 21:53:15 1999
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Subject: Re: Energy-sucking Sansbury
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
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Bill wrote:

> If fiberoptic switching equipment actually demonstrated Sansbury's
> effects, and if RF pulses in coax did the same, then the question is
> answered, and we have some cool toys to play with.  If these
> "replications" do not work, then it says nothing about Sansbury's original
> claim. 

Sansbury's result: when the photodiode shutter was open during the light's
passage throught the shutter at the laser end, but then closed just before
the light arrives, there's still light received at 1/2 intensity. Sounds to
me like photon tunneling on a macro scale. Or, in the Beardenesque version,
like one half of the total, (the time-foreward half? which half is which?)
made it through but the other conjugate got absorbed by the photodiode
shutter. 

Sounds like fun to me. If it works in bulk cable or glass fiber, then that's
great, but I bet it won't work.

And I can't find the reference for how photons travel through materials
transparent to their particular wavelength. Still looking. I hope I didn't
get that from Star Trek or something. "Aye, how'dya thin we made yer
trrransparent aluminium, eh laddie?"

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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Subject: Re: Energy-sucking Sansbury
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Michael Schaffer wrote:

> Here is another interesting article in Physics Today on modern developments
> in quantum mechanics:
> 
> Robert B. Griffiths and Roland Onmes, "Consistent Histories and Quantum
> Measurements," Physics Today, (August, 1999) 26.
> 
> Header: "The traditional Copenhagen orthodoxy saddles quantum theory with
> embarrassments like Schrodinger's cat and the claim that properties don't
> exist until you measure them. The consistent-histories approach seeks a
> sensible remedy."

<snip>

"Consistent-histories" in that context sounds a lot like the "principle of
continuity". Somebody here's bound to like that.  ;)

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 29 03:13:01 1999
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a large radio frequency dipole would emit photons, but not only that wouldn't it
emit twin photons possibly?

William Beaty wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, George Holz wrote:
>
> > William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:
> > >is conserved, yet the number of photons is also conserved too.  That's the
> > >central problem.
> > -
> > A reasonable "photon" free model must explain all of the current
> > experimental results, but is not required to agree with the current
> > photon based interpretation of those results.
>
> Of course!  ;)
>
> > I agree that energy is
> > conserved, but why must we assume that the number of photons is
> > conserved. Perhaps some statistical (SED like) version of "photon"
> > conservation would be sufficient.
>
> By "number of photons is conserved" I mean that photons would be like a
> "stuff", where one atom emits a photon, the photon is out there somewhere,
> and a distant atom later intercepts it.  I strongly agree that there might
> be other mechanisms which could mimic this effect when averaged over many
> interactions, yet for each interaction it need not be true.  Wouldn't this
> lead to short-term violations of COE as well?  If E=Hv, and each
> photon-absorbtion WAS NOT caused by an earlier photon emission, then each
> event would also violate COE.  In other words, an atom could be in the act
> of emitting waves, yet it would not lose any photon-quanta, yet a distant
> atom would feel the waves and gain a photon quantum.  Realworld example:
> radioactive atom sends out gammas and causes a GM counter to go "click",
> yet the atom has not yet decayed.  Over time, this sort of weirdness would
> average out and we'd not suspect that it occurs.
>
> > The emission event  probably cannot emit a pure sphere-wave
> > and probably has at least dipole directivity from a pure EM point
> > of view.
>
> Yep, and a dipole emission is perfectly spherical, yet its radiation
> pattern is max at the "equator" and null at the "poles."  The strength of
> the fields does not change the fact that the "ripples" take the shape of
> expanding spheres.  Antenna diagrams depict lobes, but we must not forget
> that the propagating wavefronts themselves are spherical (at least in the
> far field they are.)
>
> > Some emissions, such as those in a laser, since they are
> > phase coherent, may have strong EM directionality.
>
> A side topic: I've long been thinking about just this issue.  If the atoms
> in a laser are randomly-oriented dipole emitters, then their
> directionality is random, and they emit diffuse light... yet if they are
> all phase-locked to the stimulating wave, then as a group they produce an
> interference pattern which looks just like a laser beam.  In this way
> their microscopic directionality could be unrelated to the macroscopic
> wave-emission.  Their random orientations would average out.  It would be
> like a phase-array antenna-farm where all of the dipoles had crazy angles
> and aperiodic spacing, yet for a really huge antenna array it would make
> no difference.  Although each atom in a laser might emit light off to the
> sides, when vast numbers of atoms are involved, that light gets cancelled,
> and only the "laser beam" survives.  Or said another way: for vast numbers
> of closely-spaced atoms, there are no side lobes, so all of the light ends
> up in the zero-order lobe.  Hmmm.  Maybe this is wrong, because it
> predicts that the sparse atoms in a gas laser would behave differently
> than a crystal laser if the doping of the crystal gave us a group of
> lasing atoms where the space between atoms is << a wavelength.  But maybe
> HeNe lasers DO behave differently, since gases scatter light via Tyndall
> effect, and this would still apply to HeNe gas.
>
> > >If atoms can take single "gulps" of energy from waves, then whenever an
> > >atom emits a spherical wave-train, why don't ten other atoms each take a
> > >"gulp" of 1/10 size?
> > -
> > Read Hal's paper on the stability of the ground state of the hydrogen atom.
>
> I'm out of touch.  Is this on Scott Little's site?  Or in a journal?
>
> > >atom.  Once this has occurred, the transmitter lowers its internal energy
> > >by one photon's worth, while the receiver raises its internal energy by an
> > >identical amount [instantly].
> > -
> > Let's try not to include nonlocal properties as in QM, what we need to do
> > is explain why, without "photons" and with quantized absorption and
> > emission, the need for QM magic is absent.
>
> Agreed.  From reading www articles, I see that the SED people seem down on
> the Aspect-type experiments, and they don't believe that 'spooky action at
> a distance' has really been demonstrated.  Be that as it may, we still
> need to explain simple wave/particle phenomena such as double-slit
> diffraction under low illumination (single photon.)  Maybe SED is wrong,
> and only fields and vacuum-nonlinearities exist, with no point-particles
> anywhere.
>
> > One would not expect to find quantum effects that are measurable at
> > 100 MHz.
>
> Not single-quantum effects, but "spooky coupling" effects instead.  When
> an atom absorbs light, does the emitter know this instantly?  If so, then
> perhaps when a resistor absorbs wattage, and if the coupling is across
> vacuum (widely spaced transformer primary/secondary), then we could
> measure a lack of lightspeed delay.  If there is FTL for single-photon
> effects, maybe we can demonstrate it for large numbers too.  I'm
> speculating about other macroscopic effects which aren't wiped out when
> averaged over large numbers of interactions.  Here's a though: QM effects
> involve resonant EM cavities.  Quantum transistions are associated with
> state-changes in resonators.  Perhaps changes to macroscopic resonant
> cavities are felt everywhere instantaneously too, and this sort of
> nonlocal information transfer is behind Sansbury's observations.  (I seem
> to recall that this sort of thing has been demonstrated with "giant atoms"
> composed of superconducting rings with Josephson junctions, where the
> resonance is disrupted everywhere at once, rather than having to propagate
> at lightspeed.)
>
>   SF connection: at one point in the 1st Star Trek movie, "Vee-ger" has
>   fired its huge plasma-cloud thingy, but then it changes its mind and the
>   propagating emission goes away.  More quantum-mechanical retroactive
>   cancellation.  It just has to close its Kerr-cell shutters, then the
>   approaching wave never existed in the first place!
>
> :)
>
> > The proposed experiment should be easy to explain using
> > only classical EM. When we try to use QM here, we get strange
> > results like the emission of large numbers of "photons" in a fraction of a
> > cycle.
> > This is one of the reasons I want to associate quantum effects with
> > "emission" and "absorption"  events  that do not apply for standard
> > EM frequencies and antenna emission.
>
> Why would size necessarily matter, or number of photons matter?  In other
> words, would Sansbury's experiment not work for some types of light
> source?  Suppose we perform the Sansbury experiment at sub-millimeter
> microwave frequencies using rectennas arrays fabbed on silicon.  It should
> still work, no?  The big difference would be that the emitter "atoms" can
> send out multiple photons associated with their waves, while this would
> not be true of gas in a discharge tube.  (But it WOULD be true of lasers,
> since the atoms are locked in coherence, and the laser light has multiple
> photons just like a wave coming from a radio antenna.)
>
> ((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 29 05:46:14 1999
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http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9910105

General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract
gr-qc/9910105

From: Jean-Paul MBELEK <mbelek discovery.saclay.cea.fr>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 13:49:17 GMT   (22kb)

Long-range acceleration induced by a scalar field external to gravity
and the indication from Pioneer 10/11, Galileo and Ulysses Data

Authors: J.P. Mbelek (Service d'Astrophysique, CEA, Saclay, France), M.
Lachi&egrav;ze-Rey (Service d'Astrophysique, CEA, Saclay, France)
Comments: Latex, 23 pages with 3 Postscript figures, submitted to Physical
Review D

     We suggest an explanation of the "Pioneer effect" based on
     the interaction of the spacecraft with a long-range scalar field,
     $\phi$. The scalar field under consideration is external to
     gravity, coupled to the ordinary matter and undergoes
     obedience to the weak equivalence principle. In the weak fields
     limit it result a long-range acceleration $a_{P}$, asymptotically
     constant within the region of the solar system hitherto crossed
     by the spacecraft.


"Furthermore, the scalar field theory, as developed  in this paper, also gives  good fits for the rotational curves of spiral galaxies as shown in a previous study. Moreover, the same field acts at the cosmological scales like a cosmological constant"

Regards,

hamdi ucar



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Michael Schaffer wrote:
> 
> Here is another interesting article in Physics Today on modern developments
> in quantum mechanics:
> 
> Robert B. Griffiths and Roland Onmes, "Consistent Histories and Quantum
> Measurements," Physics Today, (August, 1999) 26.
> 
> Header: "The traditional Copenhagen orthodoxy saddles quantum theory with
> embarrassments like Schrodinger's cat and the claim that properties don't
> exist until you measure them. The consistent-histories approach seeks a
> sensible remedy."

Hi All,

I'm attaching an article in almost its entirety
because of its discussion of FTL and because it
also adds background to the 3 polarizing filter
experiment.

Jack Smith

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Analog Science Fiction & Fact Magazine

"The Alternate View" columns of John G. Cramer

Einstein's Spooks and Bell's Theorem

by John G. Cramer

Alternate View Column AV-37

Keywords: nonlocality, Bell's Theorem, quantum mechanics, Einstein,
Podolsky, Rosen, Copenhagen interpretation

Published in the January-1990 issue of
Analog Science Fiction & Fact Magazine;

Albert Einstein disliked quantum mechanics,
the physical theory that deals with matter and energy
at the smallest possible scale. Quantum mechanics, as developed
by Heisenberg, Schrödinger, Dirac, and others, had many strange
features that ran head-on into Einstein's finely honed intuition and
understanding of how a proper universe ought to operate.

Over the years he developed a list of objections
to the various peculiarities of quantum mechanics.
At the top of Einstein's list of complaints was what he called
"spooky actions at a distance".

Einstein's "spookiness" is now called nonlocality,
the mysterious ability of Nature to enforce correlations
between separated but entangled parts of a quantum system
that are out of speed-of-light contact, to reach faster-than-light
across vast spatial distances or even across time itself to ensure
that the parts of a quantum system are made to match. This column
is about nonlocality, and how, through Bell's theorem, the nonlocality
implicit in nature has been demonstrated in the laboratory.

In 1935 Einstein, with his collaborators Boris Podolsky and
Nathan Rosen, published his list of objections to quantum
mechanics in what has come to be known as "the EPR paper".
The EPR paper lodged three main complaints against quantum mechanics,
one of which was nonlocality. EPR argued that "no real
change" could take place in one system as a result of a measurement
performed on a distant second system, as quantum mechanics required.

Einstein and his colleagues also found it
unacceptable that in quantum mechanics the measurement
of one variable often precludes any knowledge of a second
"complementary" variable (for example momentum and position).

They further objected to the intrinsic
randomness and non-predictivity of quantum mechanics.
They argued that the theory must be incomplete,
and that it must eventually be replaced by a superior and
more complete theory which would observe light's speed limits,
would allow all physical quantities to have well-defined values,
and would permit accurate prediction of the outcome of
any quantum event.

A slow-motion uproar followed the publication
of the EPR paper. The founders of quantum
mechanics immediately tried to come to grips with the EPR
criticisms. Niels Bohr focused this debate on the second of the EPR
objections, the simultaneous "reality" of complementary variables like
momentum and position. The arguments over this intellectual battleground
washed back and forth for the next thirty years.

During this ongoing controversy, EPR supporter David Bohm
introduced the notion of a "local hidden variable"
theory, a partially formulated theory that would replace
quantum mechanics with a theoretical structure omitting the paradoxical
features of quantum mechanics to which the EPR paper had objected.

In Bohm's hidden-variable alternative to quantum mechanics,
all correlation were established locally at sub-light speed.
Position and momentum were permitted to have simultaneous values,
values that were real, but were "hidden" and
inaccessible to direct measurement.

Working physicists, however, paid little attention to hidden variable
theories. Bohm's approach was far less useful than orthodox quantum
mechanics for calculating the behavior of physical systems. Since it was
apparently impossible to resolve the EPR/hidden-variable debate by
performing an experiment, physicists tended to ignore the
whole controversy.

They continued to use and improve
quantum mechanics without agonizing over whether there were
underlying problems gnawing at the roots of the theory.  The EPR
objections were considered problems for philosophers and mystics,
not Real Physicists.

In 1964 this perception changed.
John S. Bell, a theoretical physicists working at the CERN
laboratory in Geneva, proved an amazing theorem which
demonstrated that certain experimental tests could distinguish the
predictions of quantum mechanics from those of any local hidden-variable
theory.

Bell, following the lead of David Bohm, had based his calculations
not on measurements of position and momentum, the focus of Einstein's
arguments, but on measurements of the states of POLARIZATION OF PHOTONS
OF LIGHT.

Before discussing Bell's theorem further,
we should pause to develop some background on the polarization
of light. The phenomena we refer to as visible light, infrared
or ultraviolet rays, radio waves, X-rays, or gamma rays are all aspects
of the same basic physics. They are travelling waves produced when
electric and magnetic fields vibrate together at right angles
to each other as they move through space at the speed of light.

The direction in which the electric field
of a light wave vibrates determines the polarization of the wave.
If the electric field vibrates always in the same plane, we say that
this is the plane of polarization, and that the wave has linear
polarization in that plane.

]If the electric field vibrates so as to trace out a
"cork screw" in space, a right or left handed helix as the
wave travels on its straight line path, we say that the wave has left or
right circular polarization. For the present discussion we will concern
ourselves only with linear polarization and will use the term
polarization to indicate linear polarization.

It is quite easy to measure polarization of visible light.
Special optical filters, for example the lenses of Polaroid(TM)
sunglasses, absorb light polarized in one direction while transmitting
the light polarized in the perpendicular direction. There are also
polarization-sensitive splitters (Nichol prisms) that will divide a
beam of light into two beams, one, for example, with vertical
polarization and the other with horizontal polarization.

Using such devices,
light can be divided into two polarization components.  For example,
light polarized at some angle to the vertical can be split into
a vertical and a horizontal polarization component. Similarly, both
vertically and horizontally polarized light can be split into a +45o and
-45o components of equal intensity.

If a beam of unpolarized light is passed first through one
polarization filter and then another, the intensity of the
transmitted beam varies in accordance with Malus' Law,
which states that the light intensity I(a) is proportional
to the square of the cosine of the angle a between the polarization
direction of the first filter and that of the second filter,
i.e., I(a)=IoCos2(a), where Io is the intensity then the
filters are parallel.

This equation tells us that when the planes of polarization
of the two filters make a right angle, the crossed filters look black
and no light is transmitted. When the planes of polarization make an
angle of 45o, half the light is transmitted.

In an atom, if an orbital electron is kicked into a higher orbit by an
energetic photon or an electrical discharge, the electron returns to its
lowest energy state by a process called a cascade, a series of quantum
jumps to lower orbits, each jump producing a single light photon of a
particular wavelength.

A two-photon cascade in which the atom as a whole begins and
ends with no net rotational motion is of particular interest,
because the cascade produces a pair of photons which have correlated
polarizations. When the photons from the cascade travel in opposite
directions, the no-rotation restriction requires that if one of the
photons is measured to have any definite polarization state,
the other photon is required by quantum mechanics to have exactly
the same polarization state. Such photon pairs are said to be in
entangled quantum states.  Experimental tests of Bell's
theorem, sometimes called EPR experiments, use entangled photons
from such a cascade.

EPR experiments measure the coincident arrival of two such photons at
opposite ends of the apparatus, as detected by quantum-sensitive
photomultiplier tubes after each photon has passed through a polarizing
filter. The photomultipliers at opposite ends of the apparatus produce
electrical pulses which, when they occur at the same time,
are recorded as a "coincidence" or two photon event.

The rate of such coincident events when the polarization
directions of the two filters have the values a1 and a2 is
measured. Then one or both of the angles are changed and the rate
measurement is repeated, until a complete map of rate vs. angles is
developed.

Bell's theorem deals with the way in
which the coincidence rate of an EPR experiment falls off
when the two polarizing angles a1 and a2 are not equal.  Bell proved
mathematically that for all local hidden-variable theories the decrease
in the coincidence rate must be linear (or less) with the angular
difference between the two filters.

Suppose, for example, that we misalign
the angles of the two polarization filters so that the angle between the
polarization directions of the two filters is a=a1-a2 . We measure the
coincidence rate R(a), as compared to the rate Ro when the filters are
perfectly aligned. That rate drops by an amount D1=Ro-R(a).
Now we double the amount of the misalignment, so that the decrease
in rate is D2=Ro-R(2a).  For this situation, Bell's theorem requires
that D2 must be less than or equal to twice D1 (D2 <= 2D1).

This prediction of Bell's theorem is one of the so-called "the Bell
inequalities". It can be thought of in the following way.
Consider that the coincidence rate Ro when the polarizing
filters are aligned (a=0) is a "signal", to which "noise"
is added when a misalignment is introduced. If the "noise" D1
introduced by moving one filter an amount q to the right is not
correlated with the "noise" D1 introduced by moving the other filter by
the same angle to the left, then at most, when both sources of noise are
present, the noise D2 from a 2a misalignment should be twice D1.

However, the two uncorrelated noise sources may occasionally cancel,
permitting D2 to be less than twice D1. Therefore, this Bell inequality
states that D2 must be less than or equal to twice D1.

Quantum mechanics, on the other hand, predicts that the coincidence rate
R(a1,a2) depends only on the relative angle a=a1-a2 between the two
polarization directions, and that R(a) obeys Malus' Law. In other words,
quantum mechanics predicts that R(a1,a2)=R(a)=RoCos2(a). Therefore,
D1=Ro[1-Cos2(a)] and D2=Ro[1-Cos2(2a)].

When the misalignment angle a is fairly small, this means that D2
is about four times D1 and clearly much larger than twice D1
(i.e., D2 [~] 4D1 > 2D1). This is a clear violation of Bell's theorem
because the coincidence rate, as predicted by quantum mechanics,
falls off much too fast with increasing angle to be consistent
with Bell's theorem, which predicts an approximately linear decrease.

When two theories make such
distinctly different predictions about outcome
of the same experiment, a measurement can be performed to test them. For
quantum mechanics and Bell's theorem this crucial EPR experiment has now
been performed a number of times.

AND WE FIND THAT QUANTUM MECHANICS ALWAYS WINS.

The EPR experiments demonstrate very significant violations of the
Bell Inequalities while confirming the predictions of quantum mechanics.

When the first experimental results from
EPR experiments became available, they were interpreted
as a demonstration that hidden variable theories must
be wrong. This interpretation changed when it was realized that Bell's
theorem assumed a local hidden variable theory, and that nonlocal hidden
variable theories can also violate Bell's theorem and agree with the
experimental measurements.

The assumption made by Bell that had been put to the test was the
assumption of locality, not hidden variables. Locality was
in conflict with experiment.

Or, to put it another way,
the intrinsic nonlocality of quantum mechanics has been
demonstrated by the experimental tests of Bell's theorem.  It has
been experimentally demonstrated that NATURE ARRANGES THE CORRELATIONS
BETWEEN THE POLARIZATION OF THE TWO PHOTONS BY SOME FASTER-THAN-LIGHT
MECHANISM that violates Einstein's intuitions about the intrinsic
locality of all natural processes.

What Einstein called "spooky actions at a distance"
are an important part of the way nature works at the quantum
level. Einstein's faster-than-light spooks cannot be ignored ...

References:

EPR:
Albert Einstein, Boris Podolsky, and Nathan Rosen,
Physical Review 47, 777-780 (1935).

Bell's Inequalities:
John S. Bell, Physics 1, 195-200 (1964);
John S. Bell, Reviews of Modern Physics 38, 447-452 (1966).

EPR Experiments:
Stuart J. Freedman and John F. Clauser,
Physical Review Letters 28, 938-941 (1972).

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 29 06:11:19 1999
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Terry -
> 
> > He found that certain
> > subjects exhibited reactions up to one second BEFORE viewing the
> > particular image.
> 
> Did the experimenter know which image was coming up?

No, it was double blind.

Terry

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	You CAN TOO sue the equipment for NOT doing the experiment in
glass fiber!

				[humor]

On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> John -
> 
> > You can probably do your light and shutter stuff woith a couple of
> > 3 or 4 spools of optical fiber.
> 
> Don't think so. Each atom is an absorber and emitter of photons. Only the
> space between atoms would be 'valid', and that's a sueless distance for the
> experiment. Needs several yards of vacuum (or maybe air).
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 29 08:30:58 1999
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And which one of the photons contains p, the (linear momentum) radiation
pressure? The photon that travels at C? Or..
 At 11:09 PM 10/29/99 +1300, John Berry wrote:
>a large radio frequency dipole would emit photons, but not only that
wouldn't it
>emit twin photons possibly?
>
>William Beaty wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, George Holz wrote:
>>
>> > William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:
>> > >is conserved, yet the number of photons is also conserved too.
That's the
>> > >central problem.
>> > -
>> > A reasonable "photon" free model must explain all of the current
>> > experimental results, but is not required to agree with the current
>> > photon based interpretation of those results.
>>
>> Of course!  ;)
>>
>> > I agree that energy is
>> > conserved, but why must we assume that the number of photons is
>> > conserved. Perhaps some statistical (SED like) version of "photon"
>> > conservation would be sufficient.
>>
>> By "number of photons is conserved" I mean that photons would be like a
>> "stuff", where one atom emits a photon, the photon is out there somewhere,
>> and a distant atom later intercepts it.  I strongly agree that there might
>> be other mechanisms which could mimic this effect when averaged over many
>> interactions, yet for each interaction it need not be true.  Wouldn't this
>> lead to short-term violations of COE as well?  If E=Hv, and each
>> photon-absorbtion WAS NOT caused by an earlier photon emission, then each
>> event would also violate COE.  In other words, an atom could be in the act
>> of emitting waves, yet it would not lose any photon-quanta, yet a distant
>> atom would feel the waves and gain a photon quantum.  Realworld example:
>> radioactive atom sends out gammas and causes a GM counter to go "click",
>> yet the atom has not yet decayed.  Over time, this sort of weirdness would
>> average out and we'd not suspect that it occurs.
>>
>> > The emission event  probably cannot emit a pure sphere-wave
>> > and probably has at least dipole directivity from a pure EM point
>> > of view.
>>
>> Yep, and a dipole emission is perfectly spherical, yet its radiation
>> pattern is max at the "equator" and null at the "poles."  The strength of
>> the fields does not change the fact that the "ripples" take the shape of
>> expanding spheres.  Antenna diagrams depict lobes, but we must not forget
>> that the propagating wavefronts themselves are spherical (at least in the
>> far field they are.)
>>
>> > Some emissions, such as those in a laser, since they are
>> > phase coherent, may have strong EM directionality.
>>
>> A side topic: I've long been thinking about just this issue.  If the atoms
>> in a laser are randomly-oriented dipole emitters, then their
>> directionality is random, and they emit diffuse light... yet if they are
>> all phase-locked to the stimulating wave, then as a group they produce an
>> interference pattern which looks just like a laser beam.  In this way
>> their microscopic directionality could be unrelated to the macroscopic
>> wave-emission.  Their random orientations would average out.  It would be
>> like a phase-array antenna-farm where all of the dipoles had crazy angles
>> and aperiodic spacing, yet for a really huge antenna array it would make
>> no difference.  Although each atom in a laser might emit light off to the
>> sides, when vast numbers of atoms are involved, that light gets cancelled,
>> and only the "laser beam" survives.  Or said another way: for vast numbers
>> of closely-spaced atoms, there are no side lobes, so all of the light ends
>> up in the zero-order lobe.  Hmmm.  Maybe this is wrong, because it
>> predicts that the sparse atoms in a gas laser would behave differently
>> than a crystal laser if the doping of the crystal gave us a group of
>> lasing atoms where the space between atoms is << a wavelength.  But maybe
>> HeNe lasers DO behave differently, since gases scatter light via Tyndall
>> effect, and this would still apply to HeNe gas.
>>
>> > >If atoms can take single "gulps" of energy from waves, then whenever an
>> > >atom emits a spherical wave-train, why don't ten other atoms each take a
>> > >"gulp" of 1/10 size?
>> > -
>> > Read Hal's paper on the stability of the ground state of the hydrogen
atom.
>>
>> I'm out of touch.  Is this on Scott Little's site?  Or in a journal?
>>
>> > >atom.  Once this has occurred, the transmitter lowers its internal
energy
>> > >by one photon's worth, while the receiver raises its internal energy
by an
>> > >identical amount [instantly].
>> > -
>> > Let's try not to include nonlocal properties as in QM, what we need to do
>> > is explain why, without "photons" and with quantized absorption and
>> > emission, the need for QM magic is absent.
>>
>> Agreed.  From reading www articles, I see that the SED people seem down on
>> the Aspect-type experiments, and they don't believe that 'spooky action at
>> a distance' has really been demonstrated.  Be that as it may, we still
>> need to explain simple wave/particle phenomena such as double-slit
>> diffraction under low illumination (single photon.)  Maybe SED is wrong,
>> and only fields and vacuum-nonlinearities exist, with no point-particles
>> anywhere.
>>
>> > One would not expect to find quantum effects that are measurable at
>> > 100 MHz.
>>
>> Not single-quantum effects, but "spooky coupling" effects instead.  When
>> an atom absorbs light, does the emitter know this instantly?  If so, then
>> perhaps when a resistor absorbs wattage, and if the coupling is across
>> vacuum (widely spaced transformer primary/secondary), then we could
>> measure a lack of lightspeed delay.  If there is FTL for single-photon
>> effects, maybe we can demonstrate it for large numbers too.  I'm
>> speculating about other macroscopic effects which aren't wiped out when
>> averaged over large numbers of interactions.  Here's a though: QM effects
>> involve resonant EM cavities.  Quantum transistions are associated with
>> state-changes in resonators.  Perhaps changes to macroscopic resonant
>> cavities are felt everywhere instantaneously too, and this sort of
>> nonlocal information transfer is behind Sansbury's observations.  (I seem
>> to recall that this sort of thing has been demonstrated with "giant atoms"
>> composed of superconducting rings with Josephson junctions, where the
>> resonance is disrupted everywhere at once, rather than having to propagate
>> at lightspeed.)
>>
>>   SF connection: at one point in the 1st Star Trek movie, "Vee-ger" has
>>   fired its huge plasma-cloud thingy, but then it changes its mind and the
>>   propagating emission goes away.  More quantum-mechanical retroactive
>>   cancellation.  It just has to close its Kerr-cell shutters, then the
>>   approaching wave never existed in the first place!
>>
>> :)
>>
>> > The proposed experiment should be easy to explain using
>> > only classical EM. When we try to use QM here, we get strange
>> > results like the emission of large numbers of "photons" in a fraction
of a
>> > cycle.
>> > This is one of the reasons I want to associate quantum effects with
>> > "emission" and "absorption"  events  that do not apply for standard
>> > EM frequencies and antenna emission.
>>
>> Why would size necessarily matter, or number of photons matter?  In other
>> words, would Sansbury's experiment not work for some types of light
>> source?  Suppose we perform the Sansbury experiment at sub-millimeter
>> microwave frequencies using rectennas arrays fabbed on silicon.  It should
>> still work, no?  The big difference would be that the emitter "atoms" can
>> send out multiple photons associated with their waves, while this would
>> not be true of gas in a discharge tube.  (But it WOULD be true of lasers,
>> since the atoms are locked in coherence, and the laser light has multiple
>> photons just like a wave coming from a radio antenna.)
>>
>> ((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
>> William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
>> billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
>> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
>> Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
>
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 29 08:58:28 1999
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I copied the audio track of the Friday cold fusion session of the ACS
conference from the video tapes onto a CD-ROM. If anyone would like a copy,
please contact me. Akira Kawasaki is offering the video tapes which are
more useful, but someone might want the audio track. I am using it to
transcribe remarks like these -- 

Fleischmann:

	There are two classes of scientists in the world: ones who think
	electrochemistry is really rather interesting -- they are
	usually non-electrochemists -- and electrochemists who say 'I
	will not touch electrochemistry, if I can do it some other way,
	I won't touch it.' And the trick, of course, is to go to our
	first love, electrodiffusion, and say, we'll do all this in the
	wire. We'll compress the deuterium by electrodiffusoin and see
	what we get out of if.

McKubre, later on, describing SRI's replication of the Case experiment:

	The key element is, there is no electrolysis. Martin said it
	exactly right: the world is fascinated by electrochemistry
	except electrochemists. If they can find another way of doing
	the job they will always choose the other way.


The four video tapes fit into only 169 MB of audio files, in Microsoft
ADPCM WAV format. I selected a 16,000 sample rate, 16 bit resolution, Mono
format. It sounds better than the el-cheapo Sears audio cassette player I
have used for this purpose, and the Syntrillium Corp. "Cool Edit" program
display screen makes it easy to back up and repeat recorded segments.

The files are:

Bush, Ben
Bush, Robert 1
Bush, Robert 2
Chubb
Dash
Fleischmann
George
McKubre
Miles
Storms
Szpak

They were all good, but I found Ben Bush, Dash, McKubre and Miles
particularly interesting.

I did not record the Thursday Blacklight Power session. I could make head
or tail of those presentations.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 29 10:11:46 1999
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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:10:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: hank scudder <hjscudde newton.csun.edu>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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All that exists are FIELDS. Everything else comes from them.

Hank

(And, yes: all that exists are
> particles and the void. :-) --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 29 10:17:14 1999
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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:04:33 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Energy-sucking Sansbury
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>Michael Schaffer wrote:
>
>> Here is another interesting article in Physics Today on modern developments
>> in quantum mechanics:
>>
>> Robert B. Griffiths and Roland Onmes, "Consistent Histories and Quantum
>> Measurements," Physics Today, (August, 1999) 26.
>>
>> Header: "The traditional Copenhagen orthodoxy saddles quantum theory with
>> embarrassments like Schrodinger's cat and the claim that properties don't
>> exist until you measure them. The consistent-histories approach seeks a
>> sensible remedy."
>
><snip>
>
>"Consistent-histories" in that context sounds a lot like the "principle of
>continuity". Somebody here's bound to like that.  ;)

***{Any criticism of the "traditional Copenhagen orthodoxy" is welcome, of
course, but I must note that the so called "Copenhagen interpretation" *is*
quantum mechanics. Bohr and his crew spun up a rotating cloud of
philosophical gibberish, attached it to mathematical constructs that had
been deliberately fitted to experimentally determined data points, and
expected the rest of us boobs to buy into their corrupt, anti-rational
philosophy as payment for being permitted to use their mathematical
constructs. And the scam worked for decades. It worked so well, in fact,
that traditional mechanics became saddled with a new name, "quantum
mechanics," to signify the supposed validity of their gibberish. And now,
almost a century later, that corrupt expression has become so engrained
that many people think of "quantum theory" as something separate from
"Copenhagen orthodoxy." Thus we encounter absurd statements such as the
above: "The traditional Copenhagen orthodoxy saddles quantum theory with
embarrassments..."--as if we can now reject the Copenhagen interpretation
and go on our merry way, doing "quantum mechanics" without it! Well, that's
bull. Bohr and company were permitted to attach their "quantum" qualifier
in front of "mechanics" because the world bought into their nonsense, and
it is only fitting that, when the world ceases to buy into it, their
corrupt qualifier should be removed. At that point, we will once again
acknowledge what the classical physicists knew before Niels Bohr was a
gleam in his father's eye: that all motion, including motion in the
microcosm, is continuous, and that the same mechanical principles which
apply in the macroscopic world apply everywhere. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 29 11:05:31 1999
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Jed,
Please send me a copy of the talks.  I had to miss the afternoon secession and
I find hearing some of the speakers more than once is necessary.  Can I play
this on a Mac?

Ed

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I copied the audio track of the Friday cold fusion session of the ACS
> conference from the video tapes onto a CD-ROM. If anyone would like a copy,
> please contact me. Akira Kawasaki is offering the video tapes which are
> more useful, but someone might want the audio track. I am using it to
> transcribe remarks like these --
>
> Fleischmann:
>
>         There are two classes of scientists in the world: ones who think
>         electrochemistry is really rather interesting -- they are
>         usually non-electrochemists -- and electrochemists who say 'I
>         will not touch electrochemistry, if I can do it some other way,
>         I won't touch it.' And the trick, of course, is to go to our
>         first love, electrodiffusion, and say, we'll do all this in the
>         wire. We'll compress the deuterium by electrodiffusoin and see
>         what we get out of if.
>
> McKubre, later on, describing SRI's replication of the Case experiment:
>
>         The key element is, there is no electrolysis. Martin said it
>         exactly right: the world is fascinated by electrochemistry
>         except electrochemists. If they can find another way of doing
>         the job they will always choose the other way.
>
> The four video tapes fit into only 169 MB of audio files, in Microsoft
> ADPCM WAV format. I selected a 16,000 sample rate, 16 bit resolution, Mono
> format. It sounds better than the el-cheapo Sears audio cassette player I
> have used for this purpose, and the Syntrillium Corp. "Cool Edit" program
> display screen makes it easy to back up and repeat recorded segments.
>
> The files are:
>
> Bush, Ben
> Bush, Robert 1
> Bush, Robert 2
> Chubb
> Dash
> Fleischmann
> George
> McKubre
> Miles
> Storms
> Szpak
>
> They were all good, but I found Ben Bush, Dash, McKubre and Miles
> particularly interesting.
>
> I did not record the Thursday Blacklight Power session. I could make head
> or tail of those presentations.
>
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 29 11:42:22 1999
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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:38:26 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: Sansbury's experiments on the nature of light
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***{Note: you had your "reply to" field set to your private e-mail address,
so I am having to send this again to get it to vortex, which is where your
original post went. Everybody: please do *not* set a "reply to" when
posting to vortex. It is a pain in the neck to have to repost when a reply
gets diverted to private e-mail. Thanks. --MJ}***

>All that exists are FIELDS. Everything else comes from them.
>
>Hank

***{In my view all forces, including those in so-called "force fields", are
exerted by particles in collision. For example, consider the case of an
electron flying through a magnetic field. By my interpretation, the field
consists of an array of flux lines, which are simply lines of rotating
particles arranged in space around a magnetic object. Those particles are
fully as real as the electron which deflects upon impact with them, and the
force which deflects the electron is exerted during the collision itself.
By your interpretation, I suppose, the flux lines have no real (i.e., no
particulate) existence. Instead, the energy needed to deflect the electron
from its course simply leaps into existence out of nothing, at the point in
space where deflection occurs. If that is your view, then I must note that
it violates the principle of continuity: "no thing may come into existence
out of nothing or vanish into nothing." Thus, based on arguments which I
made in another recent post, I conclude that either we can know nothing
whatsoever, or else your theory is false. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>(And, yes: all that exists are
>> particles and the void. :-) --MJ}***

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 29 11:42:33 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: ACS CF session audio CD-ROM
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>Please send me a copy of the talks.  I had to miss the afternoon secession
and
>I find hearing some of the speakers more than once is necessary.  Can I play
>this on a Mac?

I doubt it! As a test, I'll send you a snippet of an audio file by e-mail.
But were you able to read the CD-ROM I made last time, with the Mizuno
pictures? Robert Huggins has a Mac and he told me he could not see a thing
on the disk. I wish these CD-ROM formats were standardized.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 29 12:12:21 1999
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October 29, 1999

Vortex,

Jed Rothwell wrote:

>It sounds better than the el-cheapo Sears audio cassette player I
>have used for this purpose ---

Congrats on the CD-Rom effort. There is no copyright issue to worry about on
the tapes.

Just a trivia comment: I would hope the audio does sound better than the Sears
unit. : ) Although the camcorder has stereo capability, it was used on the
monaural mode with two separately located audio pickups mixed together and set
on hi-fi mode with Dolby on. One mike was an omnidirectional  remote unit
(Samson) and the second was a very sharp directional microphone (Sennheiser)
mounted on the camera to pick up sounds from the direction of the camera. The
original furnished monaural microphone that came with the camcorder was found
from the begining to be next to useless.

Diverging on video quality, it's too bad most TVs cannot handle superior the
S-VHS format which was used for recording. A lot of definition is lost in
VHS.and the standard TV screen, and copying. You try to compensate for this
when recording.on the fly. I am glad the product came out relatively OK.

Going digital is the latest but with all the hoopla, it still is not worth it
for me for the higher cost for the given specs.. The camera portion of my
camcorder itself has over twice the resoltion capability than recording on its
S-VHS recorder section. The challenge is to utilize this capability.
Converting analog outputs and recordings to digital is attractive for
permanence.
Also on the tapes,  editing with subtitling of tape was felt to be a waste of
time. Printed Table of Contents would be faster and efficient. I tried
subtitling with the ICCF-7 tapes but got bored with the process and quit. A
polished product is always nice but spontaneity gets lost somewhere. Plus I am
lazy anyway.

-AK-

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Subject: fields...or not
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At 01:38 PM 10/29/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>***{In my view all forces, including those in so-called "force fields", are
>exerted by particles in collision.

to explain the observed lack of aberration in fields, such particles would
have to travel through space from source to observer much faster than
light, which would imply that we could construct a superluminal
communciation device using a modulated E-field.  However, experiments
reveal that changes in E-fields propogate outward from the source at c,
which seems to contradict your superluminal particle hypothesis.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: ACS CF session audio CD-ROM
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 16:26:12 -0400
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Hi Jed,
The wave format is so common today that Mac programs should 
certainly be available for playing these files. 
If not, you could send me a copy of the CD-ROM and I could make the 
files into tracks on an audio CD. The whole set would probably require
2 CD's however, since the data would expand about 5X.
Another alternative would be to compress to MP3 format
and put the files on a web site. 
George
-

>Edmund Storms wrote:
>
>>Please send me a copy of the talks.  I had to miss the afternoon secession
>and
>>I find hearing some of the speakers more than once is necessary.  Can I play
>>this on a Mac?
>
>I doubt it! As a test, I'll send you a snippet of an audio file by e-mail.
>But were you able to read the CD-ROM I made last time, with the Mizuno
>pictures? Robert Huggins has a Mac and he told me he could not see a thing
>on the disk. I wish these CD-ROM formats were standardized.
>
>- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 29 14:01:51 1999
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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 15:54:07 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: fields...or not
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>At 01:38 PM 10/29/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>***{In my view all forces, including those in so-called "force fields", are
>>exerted by particles in collision.
>
>to explain the observed lack of aberration in fields, such particles would
>have to travel through space from source to observer much faster than
>light, which would imply that we could construct a superluminal
>communciation device using a modulated E-field.  However, experiments
>reveal that changes in E-fields propogate outward from the source at c,
>which seems to contradict your superluminal particle hypothesis.

***{It is of course true that aberration would hurl electrons out of their
orbits after a few million revolutions about the nucleus, unless the
Coulomb force moved through space at hundreds of millions of times the
speed of light; and it is also true that electromotive force travels down a
wire at the speed of light in that medium (e.g., copper). However, all that
seems to indicate would be that the beginning of movement of electrons at
the distal end of the wire is not a response to movement of electrons at
the proximal end, but rather to the impact of photons that were emitted due
to that movement. And such a supposition is perfectly reasonable: by moving
a few electrons a fraction of a millimeter at the proximal end, we would
produce a negligible change in the Coulomb force at the distal end, which
after all might be a hundred miles away. (Remember: the Coulomb force
varies inversely as the square of the distance.) Thus it makes no sense to
suppose that the Coulomb forces, despite acting virtually instantaneously,
account for the effect; and it makes perfect sense to suppose that photons
passing down the wire are responsible for it. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 29 14:06:16 1999
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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 16:52:50 -0400
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From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: ACS CF session audio CD-ROM
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At 04:26 PM 10/29/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi Jed,
>The wave format is so common today that Mac programs should 
>certainly be available for playing these files. 
>If not, you could send me a copy of the CD-ROM and I could make the 
>files into tracks on an audio CD. The whole set would probably require
>2 CD's however, since the data would expand about 5X.
>Another alternative would be to compress to MP3 format
>and put the files on a web site. 
>George
>-
>
  

  That is correct.  CD-ROMS should be readable on both
machines since they use what I believe is orange coding
of the CD-ROMS, unless Jed used the audio-only red coding.

  BTW, Akira did a GREAT job of imaging the graphs
and vuecurves.   It would be a significant S/N loss to
just rely on the audio.

   Mitchell Swartz




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From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: fields...or not
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At 03:54 PM 10/29/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>...it is also true that electromotive force travels down a
>wire at the speed of light in that medium (e.g., copper). However, all that
>seems to indicate would be that the beginning of movement of electrons at
>the distal end of the wire is not a response to movement of electrons at
>the proximal end, but rather to the impact of photons that were emitted due
>to that movement....

let's stick to free-space fields for simplicity.  A two-sphere dipole with
HV generator is taken to intergalactic space away from all other matter. An
observer is located 3E8 meters away.  Suddenly the dipole is charged.  1.00
seconds later the observer's E-field meter registers the arrival of a
field, which you claim to be due to the superluminal propagation of
particles.  Why did it take so long for these particles to reach the observer?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 29 15:41:46 1999
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: ACS CF session audio CD-ROM
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George Holz wrote:

you could send me a copy of the CD-ROM and I could make the 
>files into tracks on an audio CD. The whole set would probably require
>2 CD's however, since the data would expand about 5X.

Whatever y'all need, just let me know and send me your mailing address.
It's too much to e-mail. This program and the CD-R making program can crank
out a variety of formats. Let's see if Ed can read the 10-second snippet I
e-mailed him.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 29 15:43:06 1999
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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
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Subject: Re: Energy-sucking Sansbury
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 18:46:57 -0400
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William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:
>By "number of photons is conserved" I mean that photons would be like a
>"stuff", where one atom emits a photon, the photon is out there somewhere,
>and a distant atom later intercepts it.  I strongly agree that there might
>be other mechanisms which could mimic this effect when averaged over many
>interactions, yet for each interaction it need not be true.  Wouldn't this
>lead to short-term violations of COE as well?  If E=Hv, and each
>photon-absorbtion WAS NOT caused by an earlier photon emission, then each
>event would also violate COE.
-
Violations of COE, yes and no. The following is based on my interpretation
and extrapolation of Hal's theory, so don't blame him for the errors.
The idea is that the orbital electrons, the emitters and acceptors of "photons"
are in  equilibrium with the ZPF, and their stable orbits are stable due to
acceptance of energy from and loss of energy to the ZPF. Thus "photons"
are emitted whenever the combination of ZPF excitation and other energy
input (phonons, electron collisions etc.) is sufficient to move the
electron into the energy region of the another stable orbit. The ZPF provides
the remaining energy to stabilize the new orbit and forces the emission of
exactly the quanta of energy("photon") given by E=h*nu, which now applies
to emission and absorption by matter but not to EM in general. Absorption
of "photons" occurs by the inverse of this process, with the EM "photon"
input providing a portion of the energy and the ZPF the remaining ammount
to give exactly E=h*nu of transition energy. What I am trying to describe
here is a theory of light where all quantized absorption and emission,
(no longer the only kind of EM emission possible) is governed by a statistical
process. This makes the explanation of the double slit experiment
simple,  each quantum size EM wave emission naturally travels
through  both slits but reacts statistically with the emulsion to create the
interference pattern.
-
>Yep, and a dipole emission is perfectly spherical, yet its radiation
>pattern is max at the "equator" and null at the "poles."  The strength of
>the fields does not change the fact that the "ripples" take the shape of
>expanding spheres.  Antenna diagrams depict lobes, but we must not forget
>that the propagating wavefronts themselves are spherical (at least in the
>far field they are.)
-Right.
-
>> Read Hal's paper on the stability of the ground state of the hydrogen atom.
>
>I'm out of touch.  Is this on Scott Little's site?  Or in a journal?
-
I believe it was in Phys. Rev. A,  send me your  address or FAX and
I'll send you a copy.
>
> From reading www articles, I see that the SED people seem down on
>the Aspect-type experiments, and they don't believe that 'spooky action at
>a distance' has really been demonstrated.  Be that as it may, we still
>need to explain simple wave/particle phenomena such as double-slit
>diffraction under low illumination (single photon.)
-
See the  double-slit diffraction diffraction ideas above.
-
>> One would not expect to find quantum effects that are measurable at
>> 100 MHz.
>
>Not single-quantum effects, but "spooky coupling" effects instead.  When
>an atom absorbs light, does the emitter know this instantly?  >:)
-
I think that such macroscopic "spooky coupling"  effects are not likely to
have escaped observation and I have not seen any reported.
>
>Why would size necessarily matter, or number of photons matter?
-
I just don't like the idea of a photon having a frequency when it
is emitted in 1 in 10E6 th of a cycle.
-
>In other
>words, would Sansbury's experiment not work for some types of light
>source?  Suppose we perform the Sansbury experiment at sub-millimeter
>microwave frequencies using rectennas arrays fabbed on silicon.  It should
>still work, no?  The big difference would be that the emitter "atoms" can
>send out multiple photons associated with their waves, while this would
>not be true of gas in a discharge tube.
-
The difference would be that there do not need to be any emitter atoms
at all, EM radiation in this case comes from conduction band electrons
and may not be quantized at either its generation or reception point. I am
not aware of experimental evidence for quantization effects at or below
microwave
frequencies without atomic interactions.
-
>(But it WOULD be true of lasers,
>since the atoms are locked in coherence, and the laser light has multiple
>photons just like a wave coming from a radio antenna.)
>

>If fiberoptic switching equipment actually demonstrated Sansbury's
>effects, and if RF pulses in coax did the same, then the question is
>answered, and we have some cool toys to play with.  If these
">replications" do not work, then it says nothing about Sansbury's original
>claim.
-
Rick Monteverde wrote:
>
>Sounds like fun to me. If it works in bulk cable or glass fiber, then that's
>great, but I bet it won't work.
-
I'm betting that it works in glass fiber but not in coax, based on the nature
of the emitter and absorber.
>
> Hmmm.  Maybe this is wrong, because it
> predicts that the sparse atoms in a gas laser would behave differently
> than a crystal laser if the doping of the crystal gave us a group of
> lasing atoms where the space between atoms is << a wavelength.
-
This is not necessarily different in a gas laser, the emitted light forms
a plane wave which has relatively constant phase across the width
of the laser tube. Even atoms that are farther apart than a wavelength
can be excited in phase by this wave.

George Holz                george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ          08805



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From: "George Holz" <george varisys.com>
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Subject: Re: fields...or not
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 19:05:06 -0400
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Scott wrote,
>let's stick to free-space fields for simplicity.  A two-sphere dipole with
>HV generator is taken to intergalactic space away from all other matter. An
>observer is located 3E8 meters away.  Suddenly the dipole is charged.  1.00
>seconds later the observer's E-field meter registers the arrival of a
>field, which you claim to be due to the superluminal propagation of
>particles.  Why did it take so long for these particles to reach the observer?
>
We all know that the experimentally measured speed of the EM wave is C.
The electrostatic "near field" falls of more quickly with distance and is
not an EM wave. Are you aware of any experiments that measure the
velocity of propagation of the near field? Your proposed experiment
would not be good for measuring near field propagation speed.
-
George Holz             george varisys.com
Varitronics Systems     1924 US Hwy 22 East
Bound Brook, NJ         08805


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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Energy-sucking Sansbury
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On Thu, 28 Oct 1999, Michael Schaffer wrote:

>   Gas lasers are coherent, just like solid state ones. The wave is coherent
> and narrow for the same reasons. Although the gas might be about a million
> times less dense, there is still 10^(large exponent) atoms around. 

Perhaps the "phaselocked random-directional emissions" would cause gas
lasers to scatter a bit of light out from the sides of the resonator
cavity.  The scattered light would be trivial when compared to the laser
beam (and when compared to the spontaneous emission still going on in the
HeNe tube.) If the emissions from each atom were highly directional, the
scattering would not exist, but such a thing might not be obvious.  I've
always had a bad feeling about those "laser explanation" diagrams which
depict the atoms as firing photons in parallel with the stimulating beam. 
I bet its more like Huygens' wavelets, where each atom emits photons
spherically, but at the macro level they form a beam which is identical to
the stimulating beam.  Sort of like a hunk of glass that is MORE than
transparent, since the process which causes transparency would be part of
the process which causes amplification by stimulated emission. 

Also, I wonder if the density of the active atoms in crystal lasers isn't
similar to gas lasers.  Ruby is chromium-doped Al-oxide, right?  The
chromium doping might resemble a gas.  Same with diode lasers, where the
mobile charge-carriers are pretty sparse compared to the lattice spacing. 


> > Here's a though: QM effects
> > involve resonant EM cavities.  Quantum transitions are associated with
> > state-changes in resonators.  Perhaps changes to macroscopic resonant
> > cavities are felt everywhere instantaneously too, and this sort of
> > nonlocal information transfer is behind Sansbury's observations.
> 
>   Changes in a resonant system tend to occur together all throughout the
> system. However, the change is slow. It takes about Q cycles for a change to
> occur in a resonant system of any kind.

Ah, but if "quantum leaps" happen instantaneously, and if an atom is a
class of EM resonator, then we have an example of a slow resonator where
the state changes instantly, as if a point-particle has collided with it.
This gets back to a comment by a local guy: if the Q of an atom is
infinite, it should take forever for it to respond to light waves.  And so
it does take forever, because photon-absorbtion doesn't resemble
"responding to waves", it more resembles a spark-discharge or other
nonlinear phenomena.

> So, if the size of the system is electromagnetic and is about 1/2
> wavelength in size, the change distributes throughout the system at
> about c/(2Q) << c. Resonant systems are slow, not fast. 

Right.  They sit doing nothing for long periods, but then they suddenly
absorb a photon over nearly zero time.  What I really wanna do is to build
a giant atom which exhibits spooky QM effects.  (This is the season, for
it, no?) I wonder what would happen to a superconducting loop-antenna
circuit which was tuned to an AM radio station.  (Tuned with an ideal,
lossless-dielectric capacitor of course.) Would it never build up any
resonant voltage?  An infinite-Q bandpass filter would not, but I'm not so
certain about a tank circuit where the coil or capacitor serves as the
antenna.  If the Q of an AM radio's loopstick circuit is too high, does it
lop off the sidebands of the received signal?

If Sansbury's stuff is real, then the same effects should arise in plenty
of other places where nobody has ever looked.  Paradigm-blindness rules
physics, and it's not just the anomalies which are an issue.  Another
issue is the amazing phenomena hidden in ALMOST plain sight, in very
simple experiments which nobody would ever think to perform.  I'm probably
jumping the gun in assuming that Sansbury's stuff is real.  But if it is,
then we might be able to find associated phenomena which are very easy to
demonstrate, once we are clued in to go looking for them.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 20:15:40 -0500
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From: Mitchell Jones <mjones jump.net>
Subject: Re: fields...or not
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>At 03:54 PM 10/29/99 -0500, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>...it is also true that electromotive force travels down a
>>wire at the speed of light in that medium (e.g., copper). However, all that
>>seems to indicate would be that the beginning of movement of electrons at
>>the distal end of the wire is not a response to movement of electrons at
>>the proximal end, but rather to the impact of photons that were emitted due
>>to that movement....
>
>Let's stick to free-space fields for simplicity.  A two-sphere dipole with
>HV generator is taken to intergalactic space away from all other matter. An
>observer is located 3E8 meters away.  Suddenly the dipole is charged.  1.00
>seconds later the observer's E-field meter registers the arrival of a
>field, which you claim to be due to the superluminal propagation of
>particles. Why did it take so long for these particles to reach the observer?

***{I'm not sure what sort of "E-field meter" you have in mind, but the
charging of a dipole causes photons to be emitted into the space
surrounding the dipole. (Accelerated charges radiate. That's how radio
transmitters work.) Those photons move at lightspeed, and, when they reach
your "E-field meter," they are going to produce electron movements within
its metal parts. Result: the meter "registers the arrival of a field." As
for the change in the Coulomb force at a distance of 1 light second from
the source, it would be virtually instantaneous, but the magnitude of the
change would be negligible from the standpoint of an observer that far
away. The reason: you can't move a charge onto the dipole *from out of
nothing*, so you must move it there from somewhere in the immediate
vicinity--which means: the change in the Coulomb force at a point 1 light
second away would be too small to be measured. Let me emphasize, however,
that the only limitation preventing virtually instantaneous communication
via Coulomb force changes is technological. We simply do not yet have
instrumentation capable of detecting such shifts, when the signal
magnitudes have been attenuated by passage over astronomical distances. If
the day ever comes when we can detect the Coulomb force shifts produced by
the deliberate back and forth movement of a charge on Mars, we will at that
point be able to communicate with Mars without any detectible transmission
delay. --Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.eden.com/~little
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

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On Fri, 29 Oct 1999, George Holz wrote:

> William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:
> >By "number of photons is conserved" I mean that photons would be like a
> >"stuff", where one atom emits a photon, the photon is out there somewhere,
> >and a distant atom later intercepts it.  I strongly agree that there might
> >be other mechanisms which could mimic this effect when averaged over many
> >interactions, yet for each interaction it need not be true.  Wouldn't this
> >lead to short-term violations of COE as well?  If E=Hv, and each
> >photon-absorbtion WAS NOT caused by an earlier photon emission, then each
> >event would also violate COE.
> -
> Violations of COE, yes and no. The following is based on my interpretation
> and extrapolation of Hal's theory, so don't blame him for the errors.
> The idea is that the orbital electrons, the emitters and acceptors of "photons"
> are in  equilibrium with the ZPF, and their stable orbits are stable due to
> acceptance of energy from and loss of energy to the ZPF. Thus "photons"
> are emitted whenever the combination of ZPF excitation and other energy
> input (phonons, electron collisions etc.) is sufficient to move the
> electron into the energy region of the another stable orbit. The ZPF provides
> the remaining energy to stabilize the new orbit and forces the emission of
> exactly the quanta of energy("photon") given by E=h*nu, which now applies
> to emission and absorption by matter but not to EM in general. Absorption
> of "photons" occurs by the inverse of this process, with the EM "photon"
> input providing a portion of the energy and the ZPF the remaining ammount
> to give exactly E=h*nu of transition energy. What I am trying to describe
> here is a theory of light where all quantized absorption and emission,
> (no longer the only kind of EM emission possible) is governed by a statistical
> process. This makes the explanation of the double slit experiment
> simple,  each quantum size EM wave emission naturally travels
> through  both slits but reacts statistically with the emulsion to create the
> interference pattern.

In other words, during a light beam, space is filled with something
(waves? particles?) but only a tiny percentage actually interacts with
matter? 

> I believe it was in Phys. Rev. A,  send me your  address or FAX and
> I'll send you a copy.

Thanks!  7040 22nd Ave NW, Seattle WA 98117.  If you have the ref, I can
go look it up in the UW physics library.


> >Why would size necessarily matter, or number of photons matter?
> -
> I just don't like the idea of a photon having a frequency when it
> is emitted in 1 in 10E6 th of a cycle.

If the same thing occurs in atoms (if photon size is << wavelength) then
the behavior of light would be no less bizarre.  How can photons have
frequency if they are point particles?  Or, a similar idea:  by sending
light through a fast modulator, we find that we've created photons having
upper sideband and lower sideband frequencies.  DOes this mean that
photons can be chopped into fragments?

   :)





> >The big difference would be that the emitter "atoms" can
> >send out multiple photons associated with their waves, while this would
> >not be true of gas in a discharge tube.
> -
> The difference would be that there do not need to be any emitter atoms
> at all, EM radiation in this case comes from conduction band electrons
> and may not be quantized at either its generation or reception point.

Now we're getting into a whole 'nother problem.  If I understand it,
metals are supposed to be like giant atoms with huge numbers of stable
electron orbitals.  The "bands" are composed of many individual orbitals,
each with slightly different energy.  When a metal circuit emits EM waves,
I imagine it to be something like a laser, where the electron-transitions
are locked together in phase.  In both cases, each "photon" is created by
a state change of an individual electron, and therefor the radiation from
a metal antenna is not so different from a diode laser (but might be very
different from the single-atom radiation from a gas discharge tube.) 


> I am
> not aware of experimental evidence for quantization effects at or below
> microwave
> frequencies without atomic interactions.

I think the "quantized Hall effect" in tiny superconductor rings is
evidence for quantum state change in bulk metals.  That's where a sort of
electron-interferometer is built using Josephson junctions, and the
devices only allow certain quantized volt/current states.  They
essentially are "artificial orbitals."  But you're still right, since that
involves microwave frequencies.  I don't know if its possible to build
larger versions which display quantized phenomena at lower frequencies. 


> >> One would not expect to find quantum effects that are measurable at
> >> 100 MHz.
> >Not single-quantum effects, but "spooky coupling" effects instead.  When
> >an atom absorbs light, does the emitter know this instantly?  >:)
> -
> I think that such macroscopic "spooky coupling"  effects are not likely to
> have escaped observation and I have not seen any reported.

Watch out!  Any new phenomenon can be dismissed by saying "if such things
existed, we would have noticed them by now."  But if we all are in thrall
to paradigm blindness, then there might be all sorts of bizarre events
occuring right under our noses, and we simply never notice them.  Here's
one I wrote about a couple of years ago: 

  http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/freenrg/rules1.html 
  Human minds are funny about anything which violates our expectations.
  Our minds want to maintain a coherent world, so we tend to get amnesia
  about things which don't fit.  Amateur scientists should never stop
  fighting against this tendency in themselves.  Avoid too much
  skepticism.  Search for "weird" unexpected phenomena.  And if ever you
  see some, write them down!  Here's a story about my own encounter with
  this issue. 

  I was using a VandeGraaff generator to power a "Franklin's Wheel" 
  electrostatic motor. I was working in a dusty shop, and little hairs
  would jump onto the brass knobs of the Franklin motor.  I wiped them
  away, but one of the hairs simply would not leave.  It was a thin gray
  hair about 2mm long, and even though I wiped and wiped, the same hair
  kept jumping back to the knob. But then I looked more closely and
  realized that something weird was going on. That hair was a ghost.  When
  I viewed it against a white background, it was completely invisible.
  When I viewed it against a normal complicated background, it looked like
  a tiny fiber of transparent glass. "Very weird!" I thought to myself, "I
  must remember to play with it tomorrow when I have more time."  

  Ten years later I read an article in ESJ about fiber-like air flows
  created by the polished knobs of a Wimshurst machine. THAT WAS IT!  That
  "ghost hair" thing!  But then I realized that it had not just slipped
  my mind ten years earlier.  Instead my brain had edited it out.  I had
  been trying to fit that "fiber" into my prior experience, and having no
  luck, it was confusing me.  It was an interesting phenomena, but it was
  also deeply unsettling.  I was going to look at it more closely, but my
  subconscious got there first and protected my "reality" by giving me
  amnesia!  When I read Charles Yost's article about it in ESJ, my
  original memories came back, but I noticed that they had a weird "feel"
  to them.  To me they felt like I was remembering a dream, as if the
  "ghost hair" event had happened to somebody else.  I suspect that my
  brain had stored the memories in a different way than normal.  I had no
  access to them until something broke through the amnesia, and then the
  "feel" of the memory was different than the "feel"  of a normal
  conscious recollection which is accessible through usual mental
  association.

  I suspect that this sort of thing is common in science.  Somebody
  announces a great discovery, and many other people remember seeing clear
  evidence for the same thing.  Is the discoverer a great genius, or was
  he/she simply the only one with the sense to write down an observed
  anomaly, and then to follow it up? 



((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 29 21:17:31 1999
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Subject: Re: fields...or not
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At 07:05 PM 10/29/99 -0400, George Holz wrote:

>We all know that the experimentally measured speed of the EM wave is C.
>The electrostatic "near field" falls of more quickly with distance and is
>not an EM wave. Are you aware of any experiments that measure the
>velocity of propagation of the near field? 

I'm not aware of any published experiments that measure the near field
propagation speed but we (everyone in the world except Mitchell Jones) can
rest assured that it does so at c and that experimental proof would be
easily attainable.  In fact, the EM radiation emitted by a dipole antenna
begins when lobes of E and B "break off" from the oscillating near field
around the antenna.  The very reason they "break off" is the finite
propagation speed of the near field.  If the near field propagated at
infinite speed, then EM radiation would never occur...you could go out as
far as you like and measure an oscillating field perfectly in phase with
the antenna driving signal.  Nothing would ever "detach" from the near field.

>Your proposed experiment
>would not be good for measuring near field propagation speed.

Are you referring to the long-range 1/r^3 fall-off of the dipole field?
OK, let's make the dipole separation distance huge and locate ourselves
along the axis nearer, say, the positive end.  With sufficiently large
dipole separation distance we can ignore the far end of it and the field we
see will be just that of an isolated charge that can be suddenly switched
on and off. 

Mitchell:

An E-field meter is, conceptually, a test charge mounted on the arm of a
sensitive force gauge.  

When we "turn on" the dipole, there won't be any photons emitted.  There's
no oscillation to launch an EM wave of any kind.  The field at the surface
of the sphere rises from 0 to E in a zillionth of a second and that launces
a single wavefront of E-field that will propagate away from the sphere at
c.  At our distant observation point we will see nothing until this
wavefront reaches us.  As it passes us, our E-field meter will register the
correct DC E-field according to our distance from the sphere and the
inverse square law.  It's the E-field itself that propagated outward from
the sphere towards us at c.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

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Subject: Re: Energy-sucking Sansbury
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William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:

> Also, I wonder if the density of the active atoms in crystal lasers isn't
> similar to gas lasers.  Ruby is chromium-doped Al-oxide, right?  The
> chromium doping might resemble a gas.  Same with diode lasers, where the
> mobile charge-carriers are pretty sparse compared to the lattice spacing. 

Good point, Bill. Only the doping atoms participate in the lasing. The
colorless crystal or glass carrier is just an inert ingredient. 

[snip]
> Ah, but if "quantum leaps" happen instantaneously, and if an atom is a
> class of EM resonator, then we have an example of a slow resonator where
> the state changes instantly, as if a point-particle has collided with it.
> This gets back to a comment by a local guy: if the Q of an atom is
> infinite, it should take forever for it to respond to light waves.  And so
> it does take forever, because photon-absorbtion doesn't resemble
> "responding to waves", it more resembles a spark-discharge or other
> nonlinear phenomena.

I think you have a couple of misconceptions. The photon has a particle-like
side to it, in that it has a distinct lump of energy and momentum that cannot
be divided. However, a photon is not a point particle. It has a finite
duration and size. These are a consequence of its wave side. A photon with a
narrowly defined frequency (and thereby momentum and energy, too) has a long
temporal and spatial extent. Time and frequency are inversely related. 

I don't know enough QM to tell you if the absorbtion by an atom and the
transition inside the atom occur instantaneously or not. However, I am
suspect that there is a probability governing the likelyhood of absorbtion at
any particular time while the photon is passing by. A high-Q atom (slow
response) is unlikely to absorb a broadband (short pulse) photon. The same
arguments hold for emission.

Molecular, atomic and nuclear Qs are not infinite. Some are extraordianrily
high, but others are very low.

>> So, if the size of the system is electromagnetic and is about 1/2
>> wavelength in size, the change distributes throughout the system at
>> about c/(2Q) << c. Resonant systems are slow, not fast. 
> 
> Right.  They sit doing nothing for long periods, but then they suddenly
> absorb a photon over nearly zero time.  What I really wanna do is to build
> a giant atom which exhibits spooky QM effects.  (This is the season, for
> it, no?) I wonder what would happen to a superconducting loop-antenna
> circuit which was tuned to an AM radio station.  (Tuned with an ideal,
> lossless-dielectric capacitor of course.) Would it never build up any
> resonant voltage?  An infinite-Q bandpass filter would not, but I'm not so
> certain about a tank circuit where the coil or capacitor serves as the
> antenna.  If the Q of an AM radio's loopstick circuit is too high, does it
> lop off the sidebands of the received signal?

Indeed, it lops off the sidebands. Too much Q is bad for radio communication.
However, steep attenuation outside the desired passband is good. Therefore,
the filter(s) that provide the selectivity are not tuned to a single frequency.

=====
Michael J. Schaffer


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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Subject: IBM - twisty trannies
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
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Everyone see this?

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9910/29/science.transistor.reut/index.html

I hope it isn't another one of those IBM announcements they make from time
to time - some big breakthrough, then nothing for years after. Like how some
discovery they made will make it possible to make 100GB storage devices the
size of a pill or something, and cost $10. Still waiting on those.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 30 17:26:46 1999
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                     Dreams and the Nature of "Reality"

  A.N. Whitehead thought that dim and fragmentary as  our  knowledge  might
 be,  it nevertheless touches the deepest realities, and that no truth lies
 beyond the happy glance of speculation, and at the base of things does not
 lie deep arbitrary mystery.

  If we approach the  subjects  of  "existence",  "Quantum  Mechanics"  and
 "reality"  with  this thought in mind, it would perhaps be helpful to look
 at a phenomena we can "all" perhaps agree is  "UNREAL"  or  illusory,  and
 that is: Dreams of the kind which happen when we sleep.

 In  this  regard, it interesting to look at some of the qualities that two
 different types of dreams have in order to relate them to what we percieve
 as "reality" or "existence".

  1. Normal Dreams

  So-called  "normal"  dreams  usually  have  similar  qualities to a movie
 wherein, unless we have seen the movie before we do not know what is going
 to happen next.  Characters appear in them  who  are  sometimes  familiar,
 sometimes  not, they may be close loved ones or people we have not thought
 about in years.  "Surprises" sometines occur that make it appear that  the
 dream  cannot be a result of solely our own imagination , or else we would
 "know" what some character was  going  to  do  or  say  next  and  not  be
 "surprized" at some reaction they have to the circumstances in the dream.

  2. Lucid dreams

  Although "lucid" dreams occur less frequently to most people, most people
 occasionally  have  them.   Lucid dreams ALSO DO NOT appear to be products
 entirely of our imagination.  This is  inferred  from  the  typical  lucid
 dream experience that the subject matter and general setting or scenery in
 the  "lucid"  dream is not determined by the dreamer, but the dreamer does
 have a conscious measure of control over what happens in  the  dream  that
 they  significanly do not have in "ordinary" dreaming.  A typical "choice"
 that a lucid dreamer will make is to "fly" over the scenery  presented  in
 the dream. This percieved ability to fly in lucid dreams is something that
 is not usually present during ordinary dreams.

          "Reality Maps" and the " `Principle' of Continuity"

  Mitchell  Jones  proposed  that  there  is  what he calls a "Principle of
 Continuity" which, if it were even suggested that it  were  not  really  a
 "principle"  then the idea expressed in such a suggestion would have to be
 false, or else, if not, ALL of our concepts of reality and knowledge could
 then possibly be illusory and false as well, including the "knowledge"  by
 someone that such a suggestion was even made in the first place!

 In other words, the acceptance by someone of the idea that things might be
 able to come into existence out of "nothing" or, conversely, vanish out of
 existence  into "nothing" would constitute a belief system that if it were
 widely held, he supposes, could shatter the entire framework of so  called
 "common  knowledge" because then, one could never be sure that what one is
 talking about is real or not. Indeed, he postulates, one could not even be
 sure if his own "existence" was "real" in such a case!

  My response to this is that the only way we really "know" anything is  by
 means  of  reference to what I call our consciousness' "Reality Map". This
 "reality map", for most people  hopefully,  has  a  "boundary"  limitation
 which  EXCLUDES  DREAM  EXPERIENCES  from within it's "coordinate system".
 This  "coordinate  system"  localizes  components  of  our   waking   life
 experience  and  perceptions  into  dimensioanally consistent locations of
 objects in space and time as represented to our "mind's eye".

 However, the accuracy of each individual's "reality"  map  can,  and  very
 often IS CALLED INTO QUESTION by people who possess THEIR OWN version of a
 "reality  map"  (everyone  has  their  own version of a "reality map", ie;
 there are as many reality maps as there are people).

 Thus, when we make reference to something that we  supposedly  "know"  and
 tell  that to someone else as if it were "true", the person we are talking
 to will typically check his own reality map  which  is  contained  in  his
 "memory" to see if that which he is being told is consistent with it.

 If  what he is being told IS NOT consistent with the other's "reality map"
 then for THAT OTHER PERSON, the so called "knowledge"  being  conveyed  is
 thereby QUESTIONABLE!

 Does  that mean, as Mitchell surmises, that the whole structure of reality
 then must come tumbling down to the point where  we  can't  really  "know"
 anything?

 I don't "know"....

 (ha!)

 Let's move on anyway.

     Jim Ostrowski's Crackpot theory of the "Discontinuity" of Existence

   Is  it  possible  that  "reality"  or  existence  as  we  know  it isn't
 continuous?

   For example, we experience the flow of time as a  smooth,  uninterrupted
 sequence  of events and experiences that take place one after another with
 no "gaps" between cause and effect. A ball is thrown,  it  flies  smoothly
 through the air, bounces on the ground or is caught by someone and we move
 about  after  that with no impression of this process being anything other
 than  what  it  appears  to  be,  that  is,  a  continuum  of  events  and
 cause-effect occurrences.

   But  this  might  all  be  an  illusion. Watching a movie for example we
 "experience" the movie in  much  the  same  way  as  we  experience  other
 (normal)  reality. But actually the movie is just a series of still frames
 which are presented to our field of vision in a rapid enough  sequence  so
 that we do not "see" any discontinuity of motion. But the discontinuity is
 there all the same whether we know it or not.

  If we allow _this_ possibility, it follows then that there may be another
 existence  or  reality  that  occupies  the  same  space  our  own reality
 occupies, but at different "time slices"  so  that  this  reality  is  not
 visible to us under normal circumstances.

 It  may  be that this "other existence" or reality is what our minds touch
 during periods of sleep, when we are "dreaming".

   If (our) reality isn't continuous , but is more or  less  like  a  "3-D"
 movie as it were, this might explain the "integration" of separate objects
 that  sometimes  appear after a tornado.  There is a quote from one of the
 "Philadelphia Experiment" websites that is worth reviewing in this regard:

  "The tornado passes and we are left with straw  embedded  in  unshattered
 glass,  a  2  x 4 piece of pine penetrating 5/8 inch steel, a 15 inch tire
 circling the base of a tree whose branches exceed 15 feet, and metal  pipe
 UNDER  the  earth  is  left  twisted in the wake of such funnels.  Clearly
 something other than physical force AS WE KNOW IT  manifests  itself  when
 CONDITIONS are met.  I quote from 'Reality Revealed':"

   This  just means that in the tornado, the time slices wherein an object
 exists become out of step with the  time  slices  wherein  another  object
 exists  but  they  are  both  occupying THE SAME SPACE (but at "different"
 times , due to the phase displacement of their respective "existence  time
 slices").

   The  claimed  after  effects  of the so-called "Philadelphia Experiment"
 include stories of men and a machine (a Navy Destroyer) which  disappeared
 and  reappeared  suddenly  due to the application powerful pulsed "vortex"
 magnetic fields.  Some of the crew, it is claimed, were "imbedded" in  the
 hull and bulkehads of the ship.

   Magnetism  is a phenomenon that although is well described in scientific
 and engineering literature, is not very well explained in  terms  of  what
 the  forces  actually  are. The repulsion effect of like pole magnets is a
 rather startling one for the experimenter who tries to  push  two  magnets
 together  when  similar polarities are facing each other.  It "feels" like
 some "thing" is there that is  rather  "springy"  or  "cushiony"  that  is
 preventing  one  from putting the two objects together, but when one looks
 there is nothing.

  Science is at a loss to pin down any  "particle"  that  is  in  existence
 conducting  this springy force between one magnet and another.  The theory
 that there is "ether" of some  kind  which  is  essentially  a  conducting
 medium  for  light  and  radio  waves  has  been  rejected by "mainstream"
 scientists - but a few so-called "crackpots" out there still hold to  such
 views.

   But  it  may be  that  the  particles which cannot be seen is somehow in
 existence in a different "space-time slice " and the repulsion  effect  is
 due  to  the  quality of magnets which "prefers" an orientation with other
 magnets to occupy a "spacetime slice" similar to it's own, and  that  it's
 physical  orientation  ("polarity"  ) relative to another magnet is due to
 the "ether flow" of spacetime between the two poles. If "ether flows"  are
 opposite in vector force and direction relative to two magnets facing each
 other  they  will  repel. If the ether flows are similar in that they both
 are vectored toward  the  same  point  is  spacetime  then  the  force  is
 attractive.

 According to my crackpot theory....

                 Jim Ostrowski's Lucid Dream "Experiments"

 I  have  the  typical  variety  of  dreams  at  night  except, gratefully,
 "nightmares" or very frightening dreams.

 Among the very best (as in "enjoyable") and most  memorable,  particulary,
 are  of a recurrent nature. That is not to say the same dream happens over
 and over, but more or less the same thing goes on where I am on  a  "ride"
 of some kind, such as can be found in an amusement park.

 The latest one like this, a few weeks ago, was where I boarded a passenger
 type jet aircraft and sat down next to a large window inside the plane. At
 this  point in the dream, I was unaware that I was dreaming but did become
 so at the very end.

  Apparently, on whatever planet this aircraft flew around on, the pilot is
 obliged to manuever the plane in a combination of high speed  taxiing  and
 airborne  "hops"  across  to various banked and curved runways that take a
 twisting path across a mountain range. These runways could either drop off
 into where there was nothing there but a  deep  chasm,  or  conversely  be
 blocked  by  trees  or  parts  of  the mountain range where the pilot must
 increase throttle and "take off" briefly in order to fly  over  or  around
 the obstacle.

  This  sort  of  thing  went  on  for several minutes, taking off from one
 runway at high speed, jumping over a gorge and landing on  another  runway
 on the other side, continuing on to some other obstacle, jumping over that
 and  so  on  until  at last I could see out the window that we were headed
 toward the ocean where there was a huge mountainous  rock  island  in  our
 direct path.

  This  was  no  problem hovever, the unseen pilot just banked the wings in
 order to avoid the island-rock and started to barely skim the crest  of  a
 big  wave,  and  suddenly  the  scenery  "froze"  right  there!  When that
 happened I could tell that the WHOLE SCENE was made  up  of  small  square
 "pixels" and that the "big wave" had not been digitally "finished" yet!

 At  that moment I realized that the whole ride had been a dream, digitally
 synthesised no less like a video game!..  The scene of  the  "frozen"  big
 wave slowly "fizzled" from view and I woke up.

 This  suggested  to  me  that  there  was  possibly  some  other  "entity"
 "designing" my dreams for  me,  perhaps  sometimes  for  the  purposes  of
 entertainment, other times for instruction or warnings etc...

 So  I  determined  from then on, if I could, during lucid "dreams" I would
 try to test this hypothesis by  whatever  means  my  conscious  "lucidity"
 would allow.

 Without  going  into  the detais of the dreams themseleves, here is what I
 "know" so far...

 1. It is not possible for my lucid, conscious "self" during the  dream  to
 actually alter or change the "scene" I am observing or participating with.

 2.   I  CAN  chose  to "concentrate" on detail. That is, when something is
 moving across my "field" of view I can observe some aspect or  feature  of
 the object for it's refinement of detail or it's resolution. From the best
 of  my  observation,  the resolution allowed is indistinguishable from the
 resolution that is available in waking reality except  in  that  one  case
 where the scene suddenly "froze" - the "big wave" where I "saw' "pixels".

 3.   There  are  variations  in luminance and overall "contrast" levels in
 various dreams.  Some are very "vivid", some are not. I  have  NO  control
 over this aspect.

 4.  The  field  of view in some dreams is limited, ie, not much peripheral
 "vision" and are somewhat tunnel-like. I have NO control over this aspect.

 That's about all I know regarding the details of what control I have  over
 my  dreams  when I "know" that I am dreaming. If anyonme has any different
 experiences with their lucid dreams, please post them here or to vortexb.

 Also, if anyone has  any  comments  on  my  "crackpot"  "Discontinuity  of
 Existence" theory, comments on this subject are welcome.

 Jim Ostrowski












From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 31 03:30:59 1999
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Message-Id: <199910311128.GAA08358 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: Boscoli
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 07:23:54 -0000
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From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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>Vortex
>
>Could Gene Mallove tell us what is the situation about Boscoli ? IE #27
>announced a "September surprise" due to appear on IE website with the
>necessary details of this invention (whose patent is very difficult to
>understand). We are at the end of October and there is still nothing on the
>website except a statement that "This information will be posted shortly".
>Should we conclude that there is something going wrong ?
>                                                Jean DeLagarde

Dear All,

I have just returned from Italy. Within the next few days I will be 
posting a lengthy report on Vortex regarding my visit with Boscoli. You 
will read the report and draw your own conclusions. Please be patient.

Sincerely,

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Director, New Energy Research Lab. (NERL)
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

Ph:  603-228-4516
Fax: 603-224-5975

editor infinite-energy.com
www.infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 31 09:15:06 1999
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I got this URL from a posting on the SVPVRIL discussion group.
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135/contest.htm . From there
I linked to another site that talked about a rotating capacitor. It
reminded me of Tom Bearden's ideas. I'm wondering what you other Vortexians
think.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 31 09:21:23 1999
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Jed Rothwell wrote;

>I did not record the Thursday Blacklight Power session. I could make head
>or tail of those presentations.
>
>- Jed

Hum, that's a very interesting comment. The first time I heard Dr. Mills
interviewed I was totally convinced that he was the greatest scam artist I
had ever heard. Then I heard that he had talked several utilities into
investing millions of dollars.  I wrote a letter to the interviewer giving
him hell about promoting a scam. I mentioned the interview to Hal Puthoff
who sent me the URL of Scott Little's site with the page where they
attempted to reproduce BLP's claims and failed. Dr. Mills would not be
reached for comment of course.

Lately however Dr. Mills has been speaking in some prestigious venues, such
as the American Chemical Society. I talked to a man who was offering to
license the BLP technology for use as a home heater. At the time I could
have had it ready for market by this winter. It seemed like a good idea,
however the potential backers backed out. I would like to see a
demonstration of BLP's heat generating ability as it would settle the
issue.

So what do the rest of your Vortexians think?



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 31 10:41:23 1999
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From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
Subject: DENNIS LEE EXPOSED
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 *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *

            THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN
               11445 East Via Linda, No. 416
                 Scottsdale, Arizona 85259
                      (480) 657-3722
                 josephnewman earthlink.net
                   www.josephnewman.com


         FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE (October 28, 1999)


Dennis Lee and cohorts [a.k.a."Better World Technologies"]
were proving and demonstrating my life's work for humanity
in Phoenix, Arizona, 7:00pm last evening, October 27,1999.
They will be continually proving the validity of my life's
work in demonstrations across the country -- including New
Orleans,  Louisiana,  where I received extensive publicity
in  the 1980s  concerning  my ongoing battle with the U.S.
Patent Office to receive a Pioneering Patent for the tech-
nology I have innovated.

Dennis Lee and cohorts are demonstrating a technology that
I have  previously  demonstrated to the world via national
and  international  media:   on National CBS Evening News,
CNN/ABC/NBC News, LIFE Magazine,  Science Magazine, on the
Tonight Show,  and in  thousands of  newspapers across the
country.  Noticeably absent is their recognition that I am
the inventor of this technology.

I ask all Americans this question:

"Would you invest in someone who has  demonstrated that he
will  not hesitate  to plunder the  life's work of another
person?  Can such a person truly be trusted?"

At his demonstrations of my technology across the country,
Dennis  Lee has  claimed and  proved by  dynamometer tests
that my Pioneering invention is MORE THAN 400% EFFICIENT!

Note:  Dennis Lee has showed nothing that Dr. Hastings and
more  than 30 other  scientific individuals  have  already
verified in legal Affidavits concerning my technology.
[See pages 22-47 of my fundamental book,THE ENERGY MACHINE
OF JOSEPH NEWMAN.]

Note:  On  page 26 of  my book  (originally  published  in
1984),  Dr. Roger Hastings declares that based on tests he
conducted,  my Pioneering  Invention  could be  as high as
8,000 PERCENT EFFICIENT!

By  using  an oscilloscope,  Dennis  Lee and  cohorts also
demonstrated the large, negative backspikes produced by my
PIONEERING INVENTION that generate GREATER EXTERNAL ENERGY
OUTPUT  ENERGY THAN  EXTERNAL ENERGY INPUT.  These results
were  verified by  Dr. Roger Hastings (Principal Physicist
for  Unisys)  and over 30 other  scientists  and engineers
YEARS AGO!   [See pages 37, 47, 48, and 65-70 of my funda-
mental book.]

Dennis Lee and cohorts paid for a  full-page advertisement
in USA Today that  appeared on September 17, 1999 in which
they  claimed  the  technology  as  THEIR newly-discovered
invention. They have repeated this claim at demonstrations
around  the  country  and in  ads appearing in other news-
papers. In every case, Dennis Lee DID NOT MENTION MY NAME.
This  is not  surprising since Dennis Lee is attempting to
claim this technology as original to him.

However, the documentation --including a letter written by
Dennis Lee-- proves that the technology is NOT original to
him:    "God"  has  arranged  for  this  "lying, thieving,
scum  individual"  to  have  admitted  in writing that the
PIONEERING ENERGY INVENTION  was given to Joseph Newman by
"God"!   See  his  own  letter dated April 15, 1986  which
admits this  and where  Dennis Lee praises me greatly as a
"New (Michael) Faraday":

__________________________________________________________

                C*O*N*S*E*R*V*E  CORP.

April 15, 1986

Mr. Dan Benvenuti*
c/o Evan R. Soule, Jr.*
New Orleans, Louisiana

Dan:

I can't begin to tell you how wonderful it was to discover
you are a dedicated brother in the Lord.I know God has you
in there looking out for His interests.  I want to help.

I predicted a  few months ago  that  we would  soon sell a
product that could generate electricity for homeowners and
decentralize the  electric companies.   I knew God had the
technology somewhere and now I know where.   It looks like
we've got a new Mr. Faraday in Joseph Newman. It must have
been very exciting for him to be the first to discover the
essence of one of  God's operatives,  especially something
as important as the basis of all matter and an explanation
of magnetic force fields.  God has truly blessed him. It's
like crawling into  God's brain to see something so impor-
tant about God's world.

Joe has already received  some pretty special compensation
from  God,  and I know  he feels like he's got a responsi-
bility to use the revelation to bless mankind.  I know how
frustrating it is to  try to help people  while it appears
as though they are resisting you.   Look at Jesus in Jeru-
salem.  They can't see.   But as God sends helpers to you,
as a team  we can get  the job done in spite of,  or maybe
even because of the resistance. I'd be honored to serve on
that team  and use  the assets God gave me to help perform
the work at hand.  I see my God in it and I'm excited!

Thank you for the opportunity to serve my God.

I'd also like to bless you, Dan. Thank you for your faith-
fulness  in God  to help our  brother get started.  I'm so
happy this is  God's work,  obviously started by an act of
faith. If God is for us, who can stand against us?

Thanks again brother.

Yours in Christ,

[Signed]
Dennis M. Lee

    20121 - 48th Ave. W. * P.O. Box 5008
Lynnwood Wash. * 98046-5008 * (206) 775-5549

[*Note:  Dan  Benvenuti  has been  an associate  of Joseph
Newman and Evan Soule has assisted  Joseph Newman over the
past 16 years.]

__________________________________________________________

The  following is  the offer signed  by Dennis Lee for the
use of  Joseph  Newman's  pioneering  technology.   Joseph
Newman rejected this offer by Dennis Lee.   (A copy of the
original  handwritten  offer is  enclosed  with this Press
Release.)]


   NON-EXCLUSIVE LICENSE TO MANUFACTURE THE SYSTEM TO
COMPLEMENT MY THERMAL STORAGE TECHNOLOGY.  ANYWHERE IN USA
OR OVERSEAS UNDER  AND CAVEATS  OR COVENANTS PERTAINING TO
          FAIR COMPETITION WITH THIRD PARTIES.

I will  give minimum  performance  royalties  or any other
reasonable arrangement.

I propose to  make a payment of $100,000  upon the signing
of a license agreement.   An additional amount of $400,000
will be  payable on or  before 30 days after acceptance of
the  agreement  by both parties.   An additional amount of
$500,000 to be paid within 60 days.

It's agreed upon that the total price for a license agree-
ment is  $1,000,000 plus  royalties as  agreed between the
parties.   Agreed  upon and  presented  to  Joe Newman  by
associate Dan Benvenuti. It is clearly understood that any
and all  understandings  for agreement  shall be  approved
solely by Joe Newman and the undersigned buyer.

Signed:     Dennis M. Lee
            CONSERVE CORP.
            April 13, 1986

Witnessed:  Dan Benvenuti
            April 13, 1986

__________________________________________________________

In the above letter signed by  Dennis Lee  and dated April
13, 1986,  Mr. Lee offers me $1,000,000 plus royalties for
the non-exclusive use of my PIONEERING ENERGY INVENTION.

FACT:   I rejected Dennis Lee's offer after I checked with
the Better Business Bureau of Greater Seattle,  Washington
and  also with  the Office of the  Attorney General of the
State of Washington. Both offices sent me very unfavorable
reports  on  Dennis  Lee and his company,  CONSERVE CORP.,
which showed that Dennis Lee was hustling people.

The following is an  example of the  information contained
in a Report by the Attorney General of Washington State in
which (on page 9 of the Report) Dennis Lee had claimed:

"(a)  Statements  have been made  that Defendant Lee is an
'expert in the  field of energy  conservation  (especially
solar  refrigeration)'  and  that  he  is a former medical
student and  social psychologist.   In fact, Defendant Lee
has no special  training or background in solar refrigera-
tion  or  energy  conservation.  In  fact,  he  has  never
attended medical school nor has he received a degree in or
worked in the field of social psychology."

The above statement is from a 20 page Settlement signed by
Dennis Lee on 31 October 1985.

Interestingly,  this day  of 28  October 1999, "God" shows
that Dennis Lee is still a THIEF and a LIAR! For those who
believe in lying,  thievery,  and the stealing of creative
ideas and  inventions,  then such  people  should  support
Dennis Lee and his cohorts.


If,  however,  you  believe in  the "Word of God" and that
every  human  being  should be entitled to the recognition
and rewards for his/her  creative achievements,  then damn
Dennis Lee and his  cohorts for theft,  lies, and scamming
good and creative people.

Dennis  Lee and  cohorts  will  be  appearing in different
cities  across  the  United States over the next weeks.  I
encourage  honest  people  to go to one of these presenta-
tions  and  observe  the  DOCUMENTATION  OF MY  PIONEERING
ENERGY  INVENTION  provided  by  a  THIEF,  a LIAR,  and a
CONVICTED CRIMINAL:  Dennis Lee.

Fact:   Even  the  U. S.  Patent  Office  in Federal Court
admitted  that  if  my  invention  worked  that  it  was a
"PIONEERING INVENTION"  and the Supreme Court has ruled on
several occasions:

"From  the  WIDEST  TO  THE  NARROWEST interpretation, the
CLAIMS of a  PIONEERING INVENTION WILL BE SUPPORTED IN THE
LANGUAGE OF THE APPLICANT." That Applicant is myself.  And
Dennis  Lee so  admits  this in his two statements that he
wrote in the 1980s.

Dennis Lee and cohorts are in the process of demonstrating
in  45  major  U.S.  cities  the  proof  of  my PIONEERING
INVENTION.  Dennis Lee has also violated copyright laws to
which Pioneering Invention status also applies.

The following is my warning to Dennis Lee and cohorts: you
will  be  sued by  me and, sadly, so will those who become
distributors for him of my PIONEERING ENERGY INVENTION.

Remember,  I fight for Creative Individuals yet unborn who
represent  the  Jewels  of our  Civilization.  My fight is
verified  by  the  history  of  my  struggle  and is fully
documented in my fundamental book.

If you believe in  Honesty, Honor,  Truth, Creativity, the
Advancement of the Human Race,  and in God, then I ask for
all Good People  to support my  efforts to bring forth the
mass production of my life's work for humanity and to damn
my enemies who are also your enemies.

POWER TO THE PEOPLE

[Signed]
Joseph Westley Newman


www.josephnewman.com
(480) 657-3722


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 31 11:55:13 1999
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Tom writes:
>Hum, that's a very interesting comment. The first time I heard Dr. Mills
>interviewed I was totally convinced that he was the greatest scam artist I
>had ever heard. Then I heard that he had talked several utilities into
>investing millions of dollars.  I wrote a letter to the interviewer giving
>him hell about promoting a scam. I mentioned the interview to Hal Puthoff
>who sent me the URL of Scott Little's site with the page where they
>attempted to reproduce BLP's claims and failed. Dr. Mills would not be
>reached for comment of course.
>
>Lately however Dr. Mills has been speaking in some prestigious venues, such
>as the American Chemical Society. I talked to a man who was offering to
>license the BLP technology for use as a home heater. At the time I could
>have had it ready for market by this winter. It seemed like a good idea,
>however the potential backers backed out. I would like to see a
>demonstration of BLP's heat generating ability as it would settle the
>issue.
>
>So what do the rest of your Vortexians think?

According to his website, over 40 fairly prestigious universities have
tested and verified his claims.  Has anyone asked those guys what they
think?  Making those kinds of claims falsely would, I think, still land a
person in jail, even in this day and age.  I don't think Mills would risk
that kind of thing, but who knows.  Maybe someone should start attempting to
locate the people that did the tests, and do some interviews.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 31 11:59:10 1999
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Thomas -

Thank you for posting this information, I am interested in sifting through
this sort of thing for clues. Is there any chance you could post the URL for
the "rotating capacitor"? I could not find that particular link among the
disorganized collection of HTML debris that passes for websites in the minds
of some of those people. Good grief...

> I got this URL from a posting on the SVPVRIL discussion group.
> http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135/contest.htm . From there
> I linked to another site that talked about a rotating capacitor. It
> reminded me of Tom Bearden's ideas. I'm wondering what you other Vortexians
> think.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 31 12:24:32 1999
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At 11:25 AM 10/31/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Jed Rothwell wrote;
>
>>I did not record the Thursday Blacklight Power session. I could make head
>>or tail of those presentations.
>>
>>- Jed
>
>Hum, that's a very interesting comment. The first time I heard Dr. Mills
>interviewed I was totally convinced that he was the greatest scam artist I
>had ever heard. Then I heard that he had talked several utilities into
>investing millions of dollars.  I wrote a letter to the interviewer giving
>him hell about promoting a scam. I mentioned the interview to Hal Puthoff
>who sent me the URL of Scott Little's site with the page where they
>attempted to reproduce BLP's claims and failed. Dr. Mills would not be
>reached for comment of course.
>
>Lately however Dr. Mills has been speaking in some prestigious venues, such
>as the American Chemical Society. I talked to a man who was offering to
>license the BLP technology for use as a home heater. At the time I could
>have had it ready for market by this winter. It seemed like a good idea,
>however the potential backers backed out. I would like to see a
>demonstration of BLP's heat generating ability as it would settle the
>issue.
>
>So what do the rest of your Vortexians think?
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 31 12:37:09 1999
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At 11:25 AM 10/31/99 -0600, thomas Malloy wrote:

>Lately however Dr. Mills has been speaking in some prestigious venues, such
>as the American Chemical Society. I talked to a man who was offering to
>license the BLP technology for use as a home heater. At the time I could
>have had it ready for market by this winter. It seemed like a good idea,
>however the potential backers backed out.

What made them uneasy?

>I would like to see a
>demonstration of BLP's heat generating ability as it would settle the
>issue.

Me too.  I have repeatedly offered to travel to Mills' facility with our
versatile water-flow calorimeter system and perform a confimratory
calorimetric  measurement on one of his excess heat producing devices.  He
only reponded once  , advising me to pursue spectroscopic investigations to
confirm his discoveries rather than calorimetry (since calorimetry is
mistrusted by many scientists).  I responded immediately explaining that,
in our case, calorimetry was actually the method of choice since (1) we are
satisfied with our own calorimeter and (2) our primary goal is an energy
source so we want to measure energy...not spectra.  He never responded again.

The offer still stands.  I will travel to anyplace Mills specifies with our
calorimeter and perform a rigorous power balance measurement on his device,
free of charge or obligation to him.  All he has to do is provide the
device and operate it for me.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 31 14:19:53 1999
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Evan Soule wrote:
> 
>  *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *
> 
>             THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN
>                11445 East Via Linda, No. 416
>                  Scottsdale, Arizona 85259
>                       (480) 657-3722
>                  josephnewman earthlink.net
>                    www.josephnewman.com
> 
>          FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE (October 28, 1999)
> 
> Dennis Lee and cohorts [a.k.a."Better World Technologies"]
> were proving and demonstrating my life's work for humanity
> in Phoenix, Arizona, 7:00pm last evening, October 27,1999.
> They will be continually proving the validity of my life's
> work in demonstrations across the country -- including New
> Orleans,  Louisiana,  where I received extensive publicity
> in  the 1980s  concerning  my ongoing battle with the U.S.
> Patent Office to receive a Pioneering Patent for the tech-
> nology I have innovated.

Joe, if your work was for humanity you'd have stopped all this
wrangling and haranguing long ago, gotten your ass to work on a
machine which functioned as an overunity generator in this world
and demonstrated something useful.

As it is, it seems to me that you're looking for
self-aggrandisement and ego gratification in order to prove to
yourself that you're a worthwhile human being despite everything
you've been told from your childhood until the present.

> 
> Dennis Lee and cohorts are demonstrating a technology that
> I have  previously  demonstrated to the world via national
> and  international  media:   on National CBS Evening News,
> CNN/ABC/NBC News, LIFE Magazine,  Science Magazine, on the
> Tonight Show,  and in  thousands of  newspapers across the
> country.  Noticeably absent is their recognition that I am
> the inventor of this technology.
> 
> I ask all Americans this question:
> 
> "Would you invest in someone who has  demonstrated that he
> will  not hesitate  to plunder the  life's work of another
> person?  Can such a person truly be trusted?"
> 
> At his demonstrations of my technology across the country,
> Dennis  Lee has  claimed and  proved by  dynamometer tests
> that my Pioneering invention is MORE THAN 400% EFFICIENT!

Than what?

> 
> Note:  Dennis Lee has showed nothing that Dr. Hastings and
> more  than 30 other  scientific individuals  have  already
> verified in legal Affidavits concerning my technology.
> [See pages 22-47 of my fundamental book,THE ENERGY MACHINE
> OF JOSEPH NEWMAN.]
> 
> Note:  On  page 26 of  my book  (originally  published  in
> 1984),  Dr. Roger Hastings declares that based on tests he
> conducted,  my Pioneering  Invention  could be  as high as
> 8,000 PERCENT EFFICIENT!

Joe, if you could _demonstrate_ anything where the power output
was greater than the power input, then percentage of efficiency
goes right out the window since you'd be  starting to deal with
controlling infinite amounts of power.
> 
> By  using  an oscilloscope,  Dennis  Lee and  cohorts also
> demonstrated the large, negative backspikes produced by my
> PIONEERING INVENTION that generate GREATER EXTERNAL ENERGY
> OUTPUT  ENERGY THAN  EXTERNAL ENERGY INPUT.  These results
> were  verified by  Dr. Roger Hastings (Principal Physicist
> for  Unisys)  and over 30 other  scientists  and engineers
> YEARS AGO!   [See pages 37, 47, 48, and 65-70 of my funda-
> mental book.]

Power, Joe, power.  Energy per unit time. 

You need to demonstrate greater _power_ output from your machine
than power input to your machine.

By the way, it's cheating if you say that because you expended
one joule to turn the ignition switch of your car on and it took
one second to start the engine that once the engine starts it's
producing more power than was input to it to start it...
 

> Dennis Lee and cohorts paid for a  full-page advertisement
> in USA Today that  appeared on September 17, 1999 in which
> they  claimed  the  technology  as  THEIR newly-discovered
> invention. They have repeated this claim at demonstrations
> around  the  country  and in  ads appearing in other news-
> papers. In every case, Dennis Lee DID NOT MENTION MY NAME.
> This  is not  surprising since Dennis Lee is attempting to
> claim this technology as original to him.
> 
> However, the documentation --including a letter written by
> Dennis Lee-- proves that the technology is NOT original to
> him:    "God"  has  arranged  for  this  "lying, thieving,
> scum  individual"  to  have  admitted  in writing that the
> PIONEERING ENERGY INVENTION  was given to Joseph Newman by
> "God"!   See  his  own  letter dated April 15, 1986  which
> admits this  and where  Dennis Lee praises me greatly as a
> "New (Michael) Faraday":


Well, I think he uses the reference loosely.
Faraday, if I recall correctly, left some quantitative evidence
that he knew what he was talking about.

You, on the other hand...


> 
> __________________________________________________________
> 
>                 C*O*N*S*E*R*V*E  CORP.
> 
> April 15, 1986
> 
> Mr. Dan Benvenuti*
> c/o Evan R. Soule, Jr.*
> New Orleans, Louisiana
> 
> Dan:
> 
> I can't begin to tell you how wonderful it was to discover
> you are a dedicated brother in the Lord.I know God has you
> in there looking out for His interests.  I want to help.
> 
> I predicted a  few months ago  that  we would  soon sell a
> product that could generate electricity for homeowners and
> decentralize the  electric companies.   I knew God had the
> technology somewhere and now I know where.   It looks like
> we've got a new Mr. Faraday in Joseph Newman. It must have
> been very exciting for him to be the first to discover the
> essence of one of  God's operatives,  especially something
> as important as the basis of all matter and an explanation
> of magnetic force fields.  God has truly blessed him. It's
> like crawling into  God's brain to see something so impor-
> tant about God's world.
> 
> Joe has already received  some pretty special compensation
> from  God,  and I know  he feels like he's got a responsi-
> bility to use the revelation to bless mankind.  I know how
> frustrating it is to  try to help people  while it appears
> as though they are resisting you.   Look at Jesus in Jeru-
> salem.  They can't see.   But as God sends helpers to you,
> as a team  we can get  the job done in spite of,  or maybe
> even because of the resistance. I'd be honored to serve on
> that team  and use  the assets God gave me to help perform
> the work at hand.  I see my God in it and I'm excited!
> 
> Thank you for the opportunity to serve my God.
> 
> I'd also like to bless you, Dan. Thank you for your faith-
> fulness  in God  to help our  brother get started.  I'm so
> happy this is  God's work,  obviously started by an act of
> faith. If God is for us, who can stand against us?
> 
> Thanks again brother.
> 
> Yours in Christ,
> 
> [Signed]
> Dennis M. Lee
> 
>     20121 - 48th Ave. W. * P.O. Box 5008
> Lynnwood Wash. * 98046-5008 * (206) 775-5549
> 
> [*Note:  Dan  Benvenuti  has been  an associate  of Joseph
> Newman and Evan Soule has assisted  Joseph Newman over the
> past 16 years.]
> 
> __________________________________________________________
> 
> The  following is  the offer signed  by Dennis Lee for the
> use of  Joseph  Newman's  pioneering  technology.   Joseph
> Newman rejected this offer by Dennis Lee.   (A copy of the
> original  handwritten  offer is  enclosed  with this Press
> Release.)]
> 
>    NON-EXCLUSIVE LICENSE TO MANUFACTURE THE SYSTEM TO
> COMPLEMENT MY THERMAL STORAGE TECHNOLOGY.  ANYWHERE IN USA
> OR OVERSEAS UNDER  AND CAVEATS  OR COVENANTS PERTAINING TO
>           FAIR COMPETITION WITH THIRD PARTIES.
> 
> I will  give minimum  performance  royalties  or any other
> reasonable arrangement.
> 
> I propose to  make a payment of $100,000  upon the signing
> of a license agreement.   An additional amount of $400,000
> will be  payable on or  before 30 days after acceptance of
> the  agreement  by both parties.   An additional amount of
> $500,000 to be paid within 60 days.
> 
> It's agreed upon that the total price for a license agree-
> ment is  $1,000,000 plus  royalties as  agreed between the
> parties.   Agreed  upon and  presented  to  Joe Newman  by
> associate Dan Benvenuti. It is clearly understood that any
> and all  understandings  for agreement  shall be  approved
> solely by Joe Newman and the undersigned buyer.
> 
> Signed:     Dennis M. Lee
>             CONSERVE CORP.
>             April 13, 1986
> 
> Witnessed:  Dan Benvenuti
>             April 13, 1986
> 
> __________________________________________________________
> 
> In the above letter signed by  Dennis Lee  and dated April
> 13, 1986,  Mr. Lee offers me $1,000,000 plus royalties for
> the non-exclusive use of my PIONEERING ENERGY INVENTION.
> 
> FACT:   I rejected Dennis Lee's offer after I checked with
> the Better Business Bureau of Greater Seattle,  Washington
> and  also with  the Office of the  Attorney General of the
> State of Washington. Both offices sent me very unfavorable
> reports  on  Dennis  Lee and his company,  CONSERVE CORP.,
> which showed that Dennis Lee was hustling people.
> 
> The following is an  example of the  information contained
> in a Report by the Attorney General of Washington State in
> which (on page 9 of the Report) Dennis Lee had claimed:
> 
> "(a)  Statements  have been made  that Defendant Lee is an
> 'expert in the  field of energy  conservation  (especially
> solar  refrigeration)'  and  that  he  is a former medical
> student and  social psychologist.   In fact, Defendant Lee
> has no special  training or background in solar refrigera-
> tion  or  energy  conservation.  In  fact,  he  has  never
> attended medical school nor has he received a degree in or
> worked in the field of social psychology."
> 
> The above statement is from a 20 page Settlement signed by
> Dennis Lee on 31 October 1985.
> 
> Interestingly,  this day  of 28  October 1999, "God" shows
> that Dennis Lee is still a THIEF and a LIAR! For those who
> believe in lying,  thievery,  and the stealing of creative
> ideas and  inventions,  then such  people  should  support
> Dennis Lee and his cohorts.
> 
> If,  however,  you  believe in  the "Word of God" and that
> every  human  being  should be entitled to the recognition
> and rewards for his/her  creative achievements,  then damn
> Dennis Lee and his  cohorts for theft,  lies, and scamming
> good and creative people.
> 
> Dennis  Lee and  cohorts  will  be  appearing in different
> cities  across  the  United States over the next weeks.  I
> encourage  honest  people  to go to one of these presenta-
> tions  and  observe  the  DOCUMENTATION  OF MY  PIONEERING
> ENERGY  INVENTION  provided  by  a  THIEF,  a LIAR,  and a
> CONVICTED CRIMINAL:  Dennis Lee.
> 
> Fact:   Even  the  U. S.  Patent  Office  in Federal Court
> admitted  that  if  my  invention  worked  that  it  was a
> "PIONEERING INVENTION"  and the Supreme Court has ruled on
> several occasions:

But Joe, it _didn't_ work as a perpetual motion machine!

It was a motor. That's all. Period. End of story.

Go back to the drawing board (or to your CAD, CAE, CAM, system,
whatever) and design an overunity machine that works and stop
bitching about your losses.  You don't have forever, you know.

 
> "From  the  WIDEST  TO  THE  NARROWEST interpretation, the
> CLAIMS of a  PIONEERING INVENTION WILL BE SUPPORTED IN THE
> LANGUAGE OF THE APPLICANT." That Applicant is myself.  And
> Dennis  Lee so  admits  this in his two statements that he
> wrote in the 1980s.
> 
> Dennis Lee and cohorts are in the process of demonstrating
> in  45  major  U.S.  cities  the  proof  of  my PIONEERING
> INVENTION.  Dennis Lee has also violated copyright laws to
> which Pioneering Invention status also applies.

Blah, blah, blah.

He's doing no more than running a circus, and charging admission,
which is all that you've been doing for a long time as well.  I
guess P.T. Barnum was right...


> The following is my warning to Dennis Lee and cohorts: you
> will  be  sued by  me and, sadly, so will those who become
> distributors for him of my PIONEERING ENERGY INVENTION.
> 
> Remember,  I fight for Creative Individuals yet unborn who
> represent  the  Jewels  of our  Civilization.  My fight is
> verified  by  the  history  of  my  struggle  and is fully
> documented in my fundamental book.

Fight for yourself.

The unborn need to fight without having to carry the debt of your
burden.
 
> If you believe in  Honesty, Honor,  Truth, Creativity, the
> Advancement of the Human Race,  and in God, then I ask for
> all Good People  to support my  efforts to bring forth the
> mass production of my life's work for humanity and to damn
> my enemies who are also your enemies.

Count me out.

Oh, I don't mean that I don't believe in honesty and all the rest
of it,
I just mean that I'm not going to fall down on my knees before
you to help you get yours;  I've got my own race to run, and your
enemies may very well be my friends.

 
> POWER TO THE PEOPLE

And, if the people can be swayed, then all power to the almighty
JOSEPHNEWMAN, no?

Get a clue...

> [Signed]
> Joseph Westley Newman
> 
> www.josephnewman.com
> (480) 657-372


---

John Fields                    Austin Instruments, Inc.
El Presidente                  Austin, Republic of Texas
"I speak for the company"      http://www.austininstruments.com

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Subject: Offer of Draft of New paper - "PATTERNS OF SUCCESS" in LENR/CF
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  Dear Vorts:

  Because of the feedback previously, and the general interest in LENR/CF,
the near-final draft manuscript (version 14) "PATTERNS OF SUCCESS 
IN RESEARCH INVOLVING LOW-ENERGY NUCLEAR REACTONS 
- A METANALYSIS", is available to vorts who have a serious interest in 
cold fusion and whether there is greater reproducibility of the LENR/CF 
phenomena.  There is, as discussed in the paper, probably due both to 
better understanding of what is required to produce 
the phenomena and controlling of false positives and negatives.

  If any vort is interested, please send email back with this
header, and the URL (or a zip file) will be returned
shortly for comments, feedback, criticism, suggestions 
prior to publication.

   Best wishes.
      Mitchell Swartz


   


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X-Status: 

The far-infrared spectra of Potassium, Chlorine, Bromine, and Iodine
has enough latitude around the 0.40 ev (~ 31,000 angstroms)predicted
resonance energy for neutrino-antineutrino pair production at ~ 500-1,000
degrees Kelvin to effect the pair production and concurrently allow
formation of the Quasi-Neutron, a fractional orbit electron entity that
contains the Antineutrino and mimics the Neutron when it couples to
a Proton or Deuteron.

This entity can give off  EUV-OU Energy when formed, and can allow
CF and LENR and D-D---> He4 + antineutrino Reactions sans Neutrons
and Gammas, since the antineutrino will carry off a large portion of the ~24
Mev
of this reaction.

With the Deuteron, if a fractional orbit Quasi-neutron forms on the Proton
portion
the existing Neutron Portion can split off, as in low temperature "Neutron
Stripping"
(Reportedly at less than 0.5 ev)with the 2.23 Mev Binding Energy Conserved
by the formation of the Quasi-Neutron.

IOW, CF etc., isn't so mysterious if you employ the right physics.   :-)

Regards,       Frederick





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 31 19:47:50 1999
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 <3.0.6.32.19991029115530.0079bda0 pop.mindspring.com>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas Malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Jed Rothwell on BLP's presentation
Resent-Message-ID: <"ek4Jq1.0.9k.IpG7u" mx1>
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>At 11:25 AM 10/31/99 -0600, thomas Malloy wrote:
>
>>Lately however Dr. Mills has been speaking in some prestigious venues, such
>>as the American Chemical Society. I talked to a man who was offering to
>>license the BLP technology for use as a home heater. At the time I could
>>have had it ready for market by this winter. It seemed like a good idea,
>>however the potential backers backed out.
>
>What made them uneasy?
>
There is one man has been trying to raise money doing things like bond
sales and financial trading to fund his charity. To date he has not been
successful. The other man has his own adgenda as to what he will fund.
Neither one of them has had any contact with BLP. I'm still interested in
attempting to fund the home heater if BLP actually has something to show
me.

>>I would like to see a
>>demonstration of BLP's heat generating ability as it would settle the
>>issue.
>
>Me too.  I have repeatedly offered to travel to Mills' facility with our
>versatile water-flow calorimeter system and perform a confimratory
>calorimetric  measurement on one of his excess heat producing devices.  He
>only reponded once  , advising me to pursue spectroscopic investigations to
>confirm his discoveries rather than calorimetry (since calorimetry is
>mistrusted by many scientists).  I responded immediately explaining that,
>in our case, calorimetry was actually the method of choice since (1) we are
>satisfied with our own calorimeter and (2) our primary goal is an energy
>source so we want to measure energy...not spectra.  He never responded again.
>
>The offer still stands.  I will travel to anyplace Mills specifies with our
>calorimeter and perform a rigorous power balance measurement on his device,
>free of charge or obligation to him.  All he has to do is provide the
>device and operate it for me.
>
Scott Little

Thanks for the input Scott. I think that anyone can write a book, but it
takes energy production measured by increased heat in matter to prove
anything to me. Although I am very interested in the nature of the chemical
changes that he is reporting as I know a good chemist I can question about
them.

Thomas
>




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 31 20:17:00 1999
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Quasi-neutrons vs Mills' Hydrino: Neutrinos Circularly Polarized Photons?
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:12:43 -0800
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The QM folks say that Circularly Polarized Photons have Spin
+/- 1/2 hbar. Depending on whether it actually is a Neutrino or AntiNeutrino
that need only be formed from a photon that has a wavelength
"resonant" around the the Infrared Spectra of a Proton or Deuteron.

If  Circular Polarization of a Photon occurs, then in an Electron-Proton or
Electron-Deuteron interaction, energy from the quarks in the nucleus
can be shared with the Circular Photon-Electron to give it energy and
literally "shrink" it to a radius R = kq^2/(shared energy) thus forming
a Quasi-Neutron.

QM "tunneling" based on this Quasi-Neutron entity would make a bit of sense
and the mechanism of large energy carry-off  by a nearly zero rest mass,
chargeless photon is easy to comprehend.

Even if his Hydrino Theory is wrong, Mills could be seeing the Quasi-Neutron
results.

The CF-OU-LENR effects should be there too.

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 31 20:33:23 1999
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From: thomas Malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: DENNIS LEE EXPOSED
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Dennis Lee and Joeseph Newman, what a couple of B S artists


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 31 20:41:17 1999
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas Malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Tapping the Orgone Energy
Resent-Message-ID: <"ra-cN3.0.Eo5.1dH7u" mx1>
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>Thomas -
>
>Thank you for posting this information, I am interested in sifting through
>this sort of thing for clues. Is there any chance you could post the URL for
>the "rotating capacitor"?

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135/rotcap.htm


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 31 21:53:59 1999
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From: "John Logajan" <jlogajan yahoo.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <004901bf2427$da984540$3a441d26 fjsparber>
Subject: Re: Quasi-neutrons vs Mills' Hydrino: Neutrinos Circularly Polarized Photons?
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Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net> wrote:

> The QM folks say that Circularly Polarized Photons have Spin
> +/- 1/2 hbar. 

Are there really circularly polarized photons, or is circular
polarization merely a pair of photons with polarization
planes rotated from each other.


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan yahoo.com  --  651-633-8918 -
 - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 31 22:08:25 1999
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From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: Jed Rothwell on BLP's presentation
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 01:15:59 -0500
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Scott and Tom write:
>>The offer still stands.  I will travel to anyplace Mills specifies with our
>>calorimeter and perform a rigorous power balance measurement on his device,
>>free of charge or obligation to him.  All he has to do is provide the
>>device and operate it for me.
>>
>Scott Little
>
>Thanks for the input Scott. I think that anyone can write a book, but it
>takes energy production measured by increased heat in matter to prove
>anything to me. Although I am very interested in the nature of the chemical
>changes that he is reporting as I know a good chemist I can question about
>them.
>
>Thomas

If the excess heat is any less than 300%, it is of no commercial value, Tom.
Calorimetry is only one tool of the trade, and it can be argued pretty
convincingly that it is actually one of the weakest indicators of any new
physics/chemistry.  Mills made it quite clear very early in the presentation
of his technology that the importance of his technology lay in new materials
production, no doubt in response to a poor showing in his own calorimetry
test results.  An obsession with calorimetry has characterized the cold
fusion field, and since it is so easy to attack a measurement that shows a
COP of say 1.25, which is a quite common finding, it has been a real
distraction that has always left the industrial people with doubts about the
veracity of the claims.  It could well be that Mills is making the best
practical decision to stick with the evidence of novel material production,
and not letting himself get drug into another neverending excess heat debate
with the legions of kneejerkers.  In this way, he positions himself as not
being a direct threat to the energy industries, and offers his wares instead
to the people in the battery industry, etc.. who are actually looking for
improvements to their existing technologies.

It's not a wise thing for a young company to go head to head with Oil,
Nuclear, and Coal, especially if they are still in the process of getting
their technology tested for acceptance, and they can't actually deliver The
Mega Heater overnight.  Mills is still experimenting, and patenting
incremental improvements in his techniques with the money that he has
available to him.  This is the way to lock up profits and future licensing
agreements.  It's no wonder he is being obtuse in his explanations.  He
doesn't want anyone outside of BLP to really understand the technology well
until after he owns it, or as much of it as possible.

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 31 22:36:23 1999
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From: "doclewis" <doclewis gateway.net>
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Subject: Re:Sansbury's expiments on the nature of light
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Greetings from St.Louis,

I am posting for the first time on Vortex.As an electronics hobbyist and =

"arm chair" physicist I naturally stumbled on to Bill Beatty's excellent =
web
site shortly after getting on the internet about a year and a half ago. =
I have=20
been a "Lurker" on this list ever since.So as not to mislead anyone that
notices my e-mail name (doclewis), I am not a Ph.D in Physics. I majored =
in physics and chemistry as an undergrad, but my Doctorate is in =
medicine. I hope not to seem as though I am rambling on here. Its just =
that it seems like I almost know all of you from reading your posts for =
the last 18 months and I felt a need to briefly introduce myself.
 This recent line of discussion brings to mind a particularly =
interesting idea
I have wrestled with for years. Like many of you on this list I have my =
own
pet theory (I have also heard these referred to as CRACKPOT theories by =
some). Anyway, I'm not here today to promote my own pearl of =
wackiness(no offense intended David D.) I will at least wait a while =
until I have a few posts under my belt before I punish you all with my =
GUT. I would like to
present something that occurred to me many years ago as I was struggling =
to understand QM and relativity. My pet idea sprung from studying the =
Kaluza-Klein 5 dimensional model when mainstream physics began trying to =
resurrect it. Of course,as you know, it died again, at least in it's =
original form. What stayed from Kaluza-Klein, however, was the idea of =
additional dimensional formulations of a GUT\TOE. Now I'm not a big fan =
of Superstrings,Supersymmetry, or Supergravity or any of the Lie Algebra =
type theories(at least not in any of the currently popular flavors), but =
I think that there are some compelling theoretical and even aesthetical =
considerations that make it likely that there may be dimensions other =
than the three space and one time dimension that we directly experience. =
There are of course arguments that these dimensions are mathematical =
constructs only and have no physical reality.No doubt this is probably =
true in certain examples. On the other hand, there are examples in which =
some theorists argue that these dimensions either curl up to diameters =
of the order 10E-35 M or if you prefer a Big Bang type cosmology, they =
simply stop expanding at the Planck time of 10E-43 Sec. Of course the =
figure of 10E-35 M being the distance light would travel in 10E-43 Sec
(These numbers are all just order magnitude approximations.You will =
sometimes see some very exact numbers listed for Planck time and =
distance and there are precise equations for calculating these, but at =
these infinitesimal levels these numbers are totally insignificant)
 Now for my point. For the sake of argument,lets allow that we live in a =
5 dimensional universe similar to the Kaluza-Klein model and that =
electromagnetism sort of falls out naturally as a consequence of =
formulating relativistic dynamics in 5 dimensions.Now this is greatly =
oversimplified but is a fairly accurate description of the general idea =
behind
the K-K model. If this line of thought proves worthy of further =
discussion I'm sure there are people on this list much more =
knowledgeable than I who can elaborate on K-K theory. Think about this =
for a moment.Would we not share this extra dimension with the rest of =
the universe just as we share the 4 known dimensions with all the other =
"stuff" in the universe? Consequently then the width of the universe =
would only be 10E-35 meters in this fifth dimension. If this is the =
case, then a photon,or something "like" a photon could traverse the =
entire universe in about 10E-43 seconds in this extra dimension. Is =
anyone starting to see where I'm heading with this? As was stated by =
someone else earlier in this discussion, Bell's inequality and Aspect's =
experiments don't rule out a hidden variable explanation for quantum =
theory ,but they do require non-locality for any implementation of a =
hidden variable theory to satisfy the inequality.If memory serves me =
correctly,David Bohm championed an idea that QM might be understood if =
we dropped the idea that the quantum wave was a wave of probability and =
that in actuality there was what he called a "pilot wave" that somehow =
guided the quanta according to certain variables which were hidden from =
detection. So imagine this; a photon is emitted from a lab on earth at =
time zero, the detector it will eventually strike in Andromeda a couple =
million years from now receives it's first information of this at 10E-43 =
seconds later, the progress of the photon at each instant is conveyed =
continuously to any location in the universe via this shortcut with a =
maximum delay of 10E-43 seconds. It would not be to much of a stretch to =
put this "pilot wave" on a mathematical footing and show local fields =
evolving at each instant in reaction to events which appear non-local in =
our "normal?" 3 space and 1 time dimensions. Certainly one can argue =
that the extra dimension(s) are not space-like, but many of the =
prominent physicists who have developed these theories have felt the =
need to explain their absence
from our normal perceptions by assigning them space-like properties,but =
unnoticed due to their Lilliputian size. Whew!! I hope that all seemed =
as clear to you all as it does to me,but we know how that goes. I hope =
someone out there will feel this is worthy of further discussion.
doclewis gateway.net
=20
  =20

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<BODY bgColor=3D#fff8f0>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Greetings from St.Louis,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I am posting for the first time on Vortex.As an =
electronics=20
hobbyist and </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>"arm chair" physicist I naturally stumbled on to =
Bill Beatty's=20
excellent web</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>site shortly after getting on the =
internet&nbsp;about a year=20
and a half ago. I have </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>been a "Lurker" on this list ever since.So as not to =
mislead=20
anyone that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>notices my e-mail name (doclewis), I am not a Ph.D =
in Physics.=20
I majored in physics and chemistry as an undergrad, but my Doctorate is =
in=20
medicine. I hope not to seem as though I am rambling on here. Its just =
that it=20
seems like I almost know all of you from reading&nbsp;your posts for the =
last 18=20
months and I felt a need to briefly introduce myself.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;This recent line of discussion brings to mind =
a=20
particularly interesting idea</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I have wrestled with for years. Like many of you on =
this list=20
I have my own</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>pet theory (I have also heard these referred to as =
CRACKPOT=20
theories by some). Anyway, I'm not here today to promote my own pearl of =

wackiness(no offense intended David&nbsp;D.) I will at least wait a =
while until=20
I have a few posts under my belt before I punish you all with my GUT. I =
would=20
like to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>present something that occurred to me&nbsp;many =
years ago as I=20
was struggling to understand QM and relativity. My pet idea sprung from =
studying=20
the Kaluza-Klein 5 dimensional model when mainstream physics began =
trying to=20
resurrect it. Of course,as you know, it died again, at least in it's =
original=20
form. What stayed from Kaluza-Klein, however, was the idea of additional =

dimensional formulations of a GUT\TOE. Now I'm not a big fan of=20
Superstrings,Supersymmetry, or Supergravity or any of the Lie Algebra =
type=20
theories(at least not in any of the currently popular flavors), but I =
think that=20
there are some compelling theoretical and even aesthetical =
considerations that=20
make it likely that there may be dimensions other than the three space =
and one=20
time dimension that we directly experience. There are of course =
arguments that=20
these dimensions are mathematical constructs only and have no physical=20
reality.No doubt this is probably true in certain examples. On the other =
hand,=20
there are&nbsp;examples in which some theorists argue that these =
dimensions=20
either curl up to diameters of the order 10E-35 M or if you prefer a Big =
Bang=20
type cosmology, they simply stop expanding at the Planck time of 10E-43 =
Sec. Of=20
course the figure of 10E-35 M being the distance light would travel in =
10E-43=20
Sec</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>(These numbers are all just order magnitude =
approximations.You=20
will sometimes see some very exact numbers listed for Planck time and =
distance=20
and there are precise equations for calculating these, but at these=20
infinitesimal levels these numbers are totally =
insignificant)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;Now for my point. For the sake of =
argument,lets allow=20
that we live in a 5 dimensional universe similar to the Kaluza-Klein =
model and=20
that electromagnetism sort of</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT size=3D2>falls out =
naturally as a=20
consequence of formulating relativistic dynamics in 5 dimensions.Now =
this is=20
greatly oversimplified but is a fairly accurate description of the =
general idea=20
behind</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>the K-K model. If this line of thought proves worthy =
of=20
further discussion I'm sure there are people on this list much more=20
knowledgeable than I who can elaborate on K-K theory. Think about this =
for a=20
moment.Would we not share this extra dimension with the rest of the =
universe=20
just as we share the 4 known dimensions with all the other "stuff" in =
the=20
universe? Consequently then the width of the universe would only be =
10E-35=20
meters in this fifth dimension. If this is the case, then a photon,or =
something=20
"like" a photon could traverse the entire universe in about 10E-43 =
seconds in=20
this extra dimension. Is anyone starting to see where I'm heading with =
this? As=20
was stated by someone else&nbsp;earlier in this discussion, Bell's =
inequality=20
and Aspect's experiments don't rule out a hidden variable explanation =
for=20
quantum theory ,but they do require non-locality for any implementation =
of a=20
hidden variable theory to satisfy the inequality.If memory serves me=20
correctly,David Bohm championed an idea that QM might be understood if =
we=20
dropped the idea that the quantum wave was a wave of probability and =
that in=20
actuality there was what he called a "pilot&nbsp;wave" that somehow =
guided the=20
quanta according to certain variables which were hidden from detection. =
So=20
imagine this; a photon is emitted from a lab on earth at time zero, the =
detector=20
it will eventually strike in Andromeda a couple million years from now =
receives=20
it's first information of this at 10E-43 seconds later, the progress of =
the=20
photon at each instant is conveyed continuously to any location in the =
universe=20
via this shortcut with a maximum delay of 10E-43 seconds. It would not =
be to=20
much of a stretch to put this "pilot wave" on a mathematical footing and =
show=20
local fields evolving at each instant in reaction to events which appear =

non-local in our "normal?" 3 space and 1 time dimensions. Certainly one =
can=20
argue that the extra dimension(s) are not space-like, but many of the =
prominent=20
physicists who have developed these theories have felt the need to =
explain their=20
absence</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>from our normal perceptions by assigning them =
space-like=20
properties,but unnoticed due to their Lilliputian size. Whew!! I hope =
that all=20
seemed as clear to you all as it does to me,but we know how that goes. I =
hope=20
someone out there will feel this is worthy of further =
discussion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:doclewis gateway.net">doclewis@gateway.net</A></FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 31 22:45:24 1999
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Hi Mitch,

I'd be glad to take a look at the paper.  I'll even remember to turn the
pages this time if it is in PDF format. :)  Thanks,

Knuke
Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm