doclewis@gateway.net
http://www.news= cientist.com/ns/981024/fifth.html ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01BF27D9.87F610A0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF27D9.87F610A0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="New Scientist Planet Science Five and counting....url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="New Scientist Planet Science Five and counting....url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=3Dhttp://www.newscientist.com/ns/981024/fifth.html [DOC#15] BASEURL=3Dhttp://www.rbiproduction.co.uk/html.ng/site=3DNS&nssection=3DFE= AT&size=3D120x60 [DOC#18] BASEURL=3Dhttp://www.rbiproduction.co.uk/html.ng/site=3DNS&nssection=3DFE= AT&size=3D468_60 [InternetShortcut] URL=3Dhttp://www.newscientist.com/ns/981024/fifth.html Modified=3DA097C15C0228BF013E ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF27D9.87F610A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 5 21:12:10 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA07347; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 21:11:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 21:11:04 -0800 Message-ID: <3823A769.11D0 ca-ois.com> Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 19:58:34 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Net test request... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"T8Lp3.0.co1.dXx8u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31492 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Is there anybody out there in vortex - space? nothing from the vo's in my inbox for 8 hrs. Not even my own post of comments about Re: Some Progress and Re: magnetic vector potential. Something is wrong. My end probably I'll try resubscribing. Jim From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 5 21:41:11 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA13777; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 21:40:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 21:40:16 -0800 Message-ID: <19991106054010.63286.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [168.150.251.21] From: "David Dennard" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Net test request... Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 21:39:59 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Dm6cv3.0.BN3.-yx8u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31493 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jim, Coming through to me. David >From: Jim Ostrowski >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Net test request... >Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 19:58:34 -0800 > >Is there anybody out there in vortex - space? > > nothing from the vo's in my inbox for 8 hrs. Not even my own post of >comments about Re: Some Progress and Re: magnetic vector potential. >Something is wrong. > >My end probably I'll try resubscribing. > > > Jim > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Nov 5 22:36:48 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA23289; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 22:32:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 22:32:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3823D648.6235 ca-ois.com> Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 23:18:32 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Curl free magnetic vector potential waves Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"k2nyx3.0.lh5.Kky8u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31494 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vorts, Sorry if anyone is getting this twice. I never got the usual return of my own message. after I sent it off B4. Kyle Mc. had a problem too evidently. I hope I didn't miss much of anything about 3 threads: 1. Scott and Mitchell Jones discussion of a coulomb force propagation exp't. (Mitchell, we may have our conflicting "reality maps" but if you prove this one, I'll second any of your nominations for the Fields Medal or Nobel Prize. I like it.) 2. Magnetic vector potential waves, below is what I had hoped to see someone else follow up. 3. Sansbury stuff 4. "principle of continuity" which I have yet to respond to Mitchell's latest. Jim O. ------------------------------------------------------ thomas Malloy wrote: > > Scott Little wrote; > > .yet the A-phi waves supposedly got thru and were detected...by a > >Josephson-junction device. > > > This sounds like the Gelinas patents, which I assume has expired. Have you searched out "Gelinas" Patents on the web or elsewhere? Where did you hear about Gelinas patents? I missed the first part of this discussion somehow. Were you fellows talking about fields around toroidal inductors? It covers > a communication system utilizing curl-free magnetic vector potential waves. > The patents were purchased by Honeywell. One of my friends asked Otto > Schimitt to make inquires at Honeywell. After their meeting Otto refused > comment which makes me think that they told him that this subject was > classified. > > I'm still attempting to understand what is ment by "curl-free magnetic > vector potential waves". Well, I posed your question to my NASA buddy Frank Stenger. I'll paste here the relevant parts of his reply: ------begin Frank Stenger-------- Jim wrote: > > Maybe you could help Thomas and me with this one.... What are "curl-free > magnetic > vector potential waves"? Man, this can get very deep into EM theory and it's an area that I'm familiar with like I'm familiar with Bill Clinton - I've just seen some of it from afar! We are all used to the idea of "B" - the magnetic intensity. Now, B is a vector quantity and in a volume of space where we have a "B field", B will have a DIRECTION and a MAGNITUDE. OK, this is just basic vector stuff and not too hard to grasp. Now, we have to get into VECTOR ANALYSIS to understand much more but in general, vector analysis is just a special kind of algebra and a related calculus that makes it easier to deal with VECTOR FIELDS. The B field around a permanent magnet is a VECTOR FIELD - as is the B field around an electromagnet. Now, there are two kinds of differentiation that are used all the time in physics - 1. One is called the DIVERGENCE operation. 2. The other is the CURL operation. I won't try to define the details of these things, but some examples are helpful: 1. You know that the "lines of B" ALWAYS FORM CLOSED LOOPS - they never just appear out of nowhere and stop at a point in space. Now, in physics, they would explain this as an equation using the divergence operation - in specific, they would say that "the divergence of B is zero". They would write it like this: del . B = 0 (1) and you say it - del-dot-B = zero. Now, if you have a vector field of electric current, you let J be the ELECTRIC CURRENT DENSITY vector. Picture the current flowing in a tank of electrolyte - each little square centimeter of surface may have, say, and amp of current flowing thru it at a certain spot in the electrolyte. You would say that the current density was 2 amps per sq cm = 20,000 amps/m^2 - IN SUCH AND SUCH DIRECTION - this would be the J vector. Now, another rule for a volume of "smooth" current flow, the B in that same volume is given as another differential operation called the "curl". In the region of electrolyte we could write a vector equation as follows: curl B = Uo J (2) and you say it - curl of B = Uo J. Now, if you have a region with no J, no current density, then J = zero and you can say: curl B = 0 (3) This is the "B situation" you have in the B space around a permanent magnet - or, around an electromagnetic outside the current conductors. There's a B field there, but its "curl" is zero. It's curl free. Now, in many advanced problems, physicists like to use what they call the MAGNETIC VECTOR POTENTIAL = A (a vector field like B) They define A in terms of B by saying: "A is a vector field such that if we take the curl of it, we get B." Or, as a vector equation: B = curl of A (4) Now, if someone said they had an A field that was "curl-free", they would mean that curl of A = zero. (5) But, notice that in equation (4) we said that B was the curl of A! So, if we have a "curl free A vector field (or wave), we are talking about a region where we have an A field, but no B field. The easiest such case to see is the case where we had a CONSTANT A FIELD. Now, the curl "operator" is just a bunch of derivatives taken with respect to the coordinate distances. So, these derivatives are zero for a constant A field. The trouble is, Frank Stenger can't visualize this kind of field and that is where it gets hard for me! Think of a toroidal transformer - there is no B field in the space outside the winding but, nevermind, if you loop a secondary turn thru this space, a voltage will be induced in it if the primary is fed AC. How does this happen - there is no B field to do the work - what is going on! I don't know. I am far from understanding electromagnetics and things like this keep me from getting too snooty! ----end quote Frank Stenger---- Frank went on to say that the bottom line is that he did not really understand the Magnetic Vector potential in depth either, but if you would fill me in on the details of what kind of test config you and Scott were talking about before, maybe we could get FS to help us with some suggestions or pointers for experiments. Frank was primarily a mechanical engineer for NASA, but has an abiding interest in electromagnetic experimentation. Jim Ostrowski > > Thomas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 00:33:11 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA06742; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:32:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:32:22 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Net test request... Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 03:40:55 -0500 Message-ID: <19991106084055375.AAA236 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"duyve2.0.Gf1.LU-8u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31495 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jim, I looked at the archives, too, and there is a pretty big blank time on both the Vortex Group and FreeNRG Group. Knuke >Is there anybody out there in vortex - space? > > nothing from the vo's in my inbox for 8 hrs. Not even my own post of >comments about Re: Some Progress and Re: magnetic vector potential. >Something is wrong. > >My end probably I'll try resubscribing. > > > Jim > > > Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 05:27:47 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA02905; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 05:26:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 05:26:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3824303F.640AA2B1 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 05:42:23 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Vortex-L eskimo.com" Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Nov 05, 1999] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A8BE2DD373251177AC0C3187" Resent-Message-ID: <"5rkoz1.0.Jj.Fo29u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31496 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A8BE2DD373251177AC0C3187 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------A8BE2DD373251177AC0C3187 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from tron.aps.org ([149.28.112.105]) by mail01.dfw.mindspring.net (Mindspring/Netcom Mail Service) with ESMTP id s26fna.bnu.33qs885 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 15:32:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from whatsnew localhost) by tron.aps.org (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id PAA26160; Fri, 5 Nov 1999 15:35:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 15:35:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199911052035.PAA26160 tron.aps.org> To: aki ix.netcom.com From: "What's New" Subject: What's New for Nov 05, 1999 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 5 Nov 99 Washington, DC 1. MISSILE DEFENSE: WARNING SIGNS OF A RETURN TO THE ARMS RACE. Congress has decided it's better to try to shoot down nuclear missiles than to stop their development. Now there are troubling indications that attempts to renegotiate the ABM Treaty will lead us back into the arms race. China is equipping its missiles with countermeasures (WN 17 Sep 99) and a little-noticed story out of Russia this weeks reports the first anti-missile rocket test in six years. Meanwhile, Ukraine is planning a missile defense. 2. FREE ENERGY: "GOOD MORNING AMERICA" EXPOSES SCAM. Dennis Lee is in Charlotte today, nearing the end of his 45 city tour of the US (WN 29 Oct 99). People who never learned, never understood, or never believed that energy is conserved, flock to his shows. On Tuesday, USA Today, which carried a full page ad announcing Lee's tour (WN 1 Oct 99), ran a good story about Lee, but buried it in Section D. Janice Lieberman, ABC News consumer reporter, who has been on Lee's trail from the beginning, flew to Houston on Monday to interview him in person, but he recognized her and refused to talk. She gave her report this morning on Good Morning America. I was the ABC science consultant for the report, and was able to assure GMA viewers at the end that, "Dennis Lee has broken a lot of laws, but he hasn't broken the laws of physics." 3. MEDIA FELLOWS: A LOT OF DENNIS LEES ARE OUT THERE. Maybe you can do something about it. If you know physics graduate students, or even exceptional undergraduates, with a talent for communicating science and an interest in learning how the media works, we've got just the program for them. In affiliation with the AAAS, the APS will again sponsor ten-week summer fellowships in major mass media organizations. Fellows do real science reporting. See: . 4. SPACE STATION: WILL THAT BE WITH EXTRA PEPPERONI? Just one year ago the Commercial Space Act was signed into law. The intent was to encourage commercial use of the ISS to defray costs. It's fair to say there has not been a stampede to get on board, even though the charge for research space is expected to be below the marginal cost. (That's like getting a ticket from New York to San Francisco for less than the cost of the in-flight meals). But now there's a breakthrough! Pizza Hut is paying more than $1M to put its logo on the side of a Russian rocket carrying a piece of the ISS. Advertising in space is not without precedent; in 1996, a $3M micro-gravity Coke machine, bearing the Coke logo, was tested by astronauts on Endeavor. While a world- wide audience watched, they got foam. Worse, Coke was upstaged by Pepsi, which cut a deal with Mir cosmonauts to inflate a giant replica of a Pepsi can while space walking (WN 31 May 96). The potential is HUGE. Perhaps a commercial launch company could carry Viagra advertising with the slogan, "We always get it up." THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) --------------A8BE2DD373251177AC0C3187-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 05:47:12 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA05522; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 05:46:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 05:46:38 -0800 Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 08:51:17 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Let me know if you get this message... In-Reply-To: <199911060305.WAA06297 fh105.infi.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"CfPau.0.CM1.z439u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31497 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I see it. On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > All: > > I haven't received any mail from vortex...let me know if this gets through > by private email. > > Thanks, > Kyle R. Mcallister > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 05:48:14 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA06271; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 05:47:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 05:47:37 -0800 Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 08:52:17 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Net test request... In-Reply-To: <3823A769.11D0 ca-ois.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"0NvDy3.0.rX1.v539u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31498 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I see it On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Jim Ostrowski wrote: > Is there anybody out there in vortex - space? > > nothing from the vo's in my inbox for 8 hrs. Not even my own post of > comments about Re: Some Progress and Re: magnetic vector potential. > Something is wrong. > > My end probably I'll try resubscribing. > > > Jim > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 07:04:23 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA22507; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:03:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:03:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991106100539.006d279c postoffice.ptd.net> X-Sender: revtec postoffice.ptd.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 10:05:39 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: jeff fink Subject: Re: Radiation Sickness In-Reply-To: <19991105032826781.AAA261 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"rHW4Y.0.bV5.6D49u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31499 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1 So far, the number of people that have died from solar, wind, and >geothermal energy is probably less than zero, >Knuke > Years ago, late seventies as I recall, we had a man in the Reading PA area getting into wind power in a big way. While on a service call he was killed by one of his machines. The largest windmill he built is still standing and is approximately 50 ft dia. I don't think the blades have turned any time in the last 20 years. Jeff Fink From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 07:27:18 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA26739; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:26:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:26:35 -0800 Message-ID: <002801bf2873$b42c1080$d4441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Magnetooptic Effects and Neutrino-AntiNeutrino Pair Production Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 08:25:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"arOaX1.0.jX6.hY49u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31500 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Zeeman Splitting and Polarization (circular) of photons in an Externally Applied or Internal Nuclear Magnetic Field suggests that Neutrino-AntiNeutrino Pair Production can occur with Infrared Photons of (~1.0 ev, ~1.24 Microns) or less. This would explain Mills' "fractional orbit" Hydrinos-Hydrides as being "First Cousins" to Neutrons-Deuterons, and the CF-OU-LENR reactions giving off Neutrinos that can carry off quantities of energy such as to allow Gammaless and Aneutronic Fusion reactions, etc. No physics laws broken here. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 07:38:28 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA28976; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:36:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:36:33 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:11:02 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: No Vortex Messages on Friday Resent-Message-ID: <"G6IhA2.0.g47.0i49u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31501 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: With the exception of "test" messages from Jim Ostrovski and Kyle Mcallister which came through just before midnight, plus a couple of replies to those messages, I received nothing at all from vortex yesterday. What about the rest of you guys? Was this a widespread problem, or was it limited to three individuals? Should messages be reposted? Does anybody know what was going on? --Mitchell Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 07:52:37 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA31993; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:51:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:51:37 -0800 Message-ID: <004401bf2877$2fc32280$d4441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Hydrino Hydrides in a Tokamak? Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 08:50:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZxyGC.0.mp7.9w49u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31502 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Using Hydrinos-Hydrino Hydrides-Deuterides and Lithium or Boron-10 as a Tokamak "Fuel" should get interesting indeed. :-) Great nuclear rocket propellant, too? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 07:54:45 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA00907; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:53:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:53:56 -0800 Message-ID: <004a01bf2877$870a9460$d4441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: Subject: Re: No Vortex Messages on Friday Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 08:53:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"mwnX93.0.5E.Jy49u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31503 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Mitchell Jones To: Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 7:11 AM Subject: No Vortex Messages on Friday Same here, Mitchell, I think Bill Beaty took the day off. :-) Regards, Frederick > With the exception of "test" messages from Jim Ostrovski and Kyle > Mcallister which came through just before midnight, plus a couple of > replies to those messages, I received nothing at all from vortex yesterday. > What about the rest of you guys? Was this a widespread problem, or was it > limited to three individuals? Should messages be reposted? Does anybody > know what was going on? --Mitchell Jones > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 07:54:46 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA00942; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:53:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:53:59 -0800 Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 10:58:38 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex , Schnurer Subject: Leptons... Electrons Same.. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"95Chp1.0.YE.My49u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31504 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., Here is question about convention: Leptons: electrons, nutrinos and anti nutrinos are all Leptons... Or has the convention changed since 1962? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 09:04:44 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA14873; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:02:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:02:13 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <004a01bf2877$870a9460$d4441d26 fjsparber> References: Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 10:59:48 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: No Vortex Messages on Friday Resent-Message-ID: <"uXOka3.0.Je3.Ky59u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31505 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >----- Original Message ----- >From: Mitchell Jones >To: >Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 7:11 AM >Subject: No Vortex Messages on Friday > >Same here, Mitchell, I think Bill Beaty took the day off. :-) > >Regards, Frederick > ***{OK, then I'm going to assume that my Friday messages were lost, and repost them. Thanks. --MJ}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 09:04:50 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA16014; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:04:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:04:00 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 11:01:24 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: fields...or not Resent-Message-ID: <"r1PBb2.0.7w3._z59u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31506 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 05:50 PM 11/3/99 -0800, Michael Schaffer wrote: > >>> Suppose I have a metal sphere connectable to the + terminal of a HV supply >>> via a fast switch. The sphere is located in the center of a large grounded >>> metal building.... > >>You don't state what is at the other end of the pulser that charges the >>sphere. Even if it is just the capacitance of the pulsar, you now have two >>electrodes, the sphere and the pulsar, connected by a wire. Therefore, your >>source is a dipole. > >I meant for the building to be the other electrode. Thus we are creating a >field that extends from the centrally located sphere in all directions >straight to the metal walls (ideally the building would be a sphere as well). ***{I think you should keep it simple. If your probes are out along the axis of a dipole, the RF emissions will be minimized, and when the excess electrons move away from the nearby pole, there will be no ambiguity about the movement. On the other hand, if they move onto the metal-frame of the building within which the experiment is being done, the situation becomes complicated: electrons will be readjusting their positions all around the probes, with effects on the field that will be difficult to assess. I suggest that you lay everything out in a straight line, and that your apparatus *not* be grounded to the building. Beyond that, the best way to determine what kind of problems you are going to encounter is to do a trial run, post a description of your setup and results, and see what kinds of criticisms you get back. (You could spend the next 20 years trying to use your intellect to anticipate everything that might go wrong, and you would still encounter a mass of unanticipated difficulties as soon as you did your first run. :-) --MJ}*** , and the probes are within the sphere, then > >The idea is to set up a DC field that can be switched on suddenly and some >probe(s) located a known distance apart in the field that can measure the >propagation speed of the field. Maybe you can think of a better setup for >this measurement. > >I expect the field to propagate at precisely c but Mitchell Jones thinks >it'll travel many times faster than c. He gets this idea from his theory >that there is no such thing as a "field"...it's all particle-particle >interactions ***{You do seem to understand my view, but I don't use the words quite that way. In my opinion, physical fields do exist. They just aren't continuous, that's all. By this I mean that if we examine them at sufficiently high resolution, we find that the phenomena described by the field equations are mediated by the interactions of unseen particles. All fields, in my view, are fully as discontinuous as, for example, pressure fields in the atmosphere, where, clearly, the effects are particle mediated. At sea level, for example, atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi when measured on a surface 1 ft square, but that number is an average. When we examine the surface on a molecular scale, we find that some portions of it are, at a given moment, being struck by air molecules, and the rest are not. In those locations that are being struck, the pressures are enormously greater than 14.7 psi, while in the others they are zero. The pressure field, in short, is not mathematically continuous, because the field description is merely a rough mathematical approximation of the effects of underlying phenomena that are much more complex. The same is true of all mathematical descriptions of physical fields. No physical field is mathematically continuous. All mathematical descriptions of physical fields are crude approximations of underlying, and vastly more complicated, particulate interactions. As to why no physical field can be mathematically continuous in space, the answer is that such a notion would imply that the forces exerted by the field are not delivered by particles, which would imply that the work done by those forces is not done by entities, which in turn would mean that the energy involved simply leaps into existence out of nothing, in violation of the principle of continuity. Since such a possibility is incompatible with the very concept of human knowledge, we must reject it, and anything which implies it. --Mitchell Jones}*** ...combined with the fact that the electric "field" does not >exhibit aberration. For both of these to be true, the electric field >particles (new entities postulated by Jones) must travel many many times >faster than c. ***{Yup. --MJ}*** > >Do you happen to know of any existing experimental evidence as to the >propagation speed of electric fields? > > > >Scott Little >EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 >512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) >little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 09:05:07 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA16044; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:04:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:04:03 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 11:01:33 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Radiation Sickness Resent-Message-ID: <"Nuz6l3.0.cw3.3-59u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31507 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >John L. wrote: > >>Except that vastly more people die per year as the >>result of fossil fuel power generation than die due >>to fission power generation. > >This is an interesting argument, but not at all logical, and quite difficult >to quantify if you want to exclude the deaths of the material miners, >reprocessing workers, and those due to non-accidental military testing. My >point was not that nuclear was worse than coal or oil, it was that all of >those methods of energy generation are unhealthy, and should no longer be >used. So far, the number of people that have died from solar, wind, and >geothermal energy is probably less than zero ***{I saw a calculation, back in the '70s, of the deaths that would result from reliance on such sources. I can't put my hands on the book at the moment (*The Health Hazards of Not Going Nuclear*, by Dr. Petr Beckmann) and do not remember the exact numbers, but basically the author figured that because of the low density of incoming solar energy (less than 1000 watts per square meter), an area roughly the size of the state of Arizona would have to be covered with solar collectors and the associated support structures, in order to produce enough power to run the U.S. at the '70s level of power consumption (which I would guess to be less than half the present level). Because of the low energy density of the power source, the total tonnage of materials which would have to be dedicated to that method of power generation would be orders of magnitude greater than would be required to generate the same amount of power via, for example, fossil fuels. Result: orders of magnitude more people would be involved in the extraction of the required raw materials, and in their fabrication, transportation, assembly, and maintenance, than is the case for fossil fuels. Result: the accidental deaths and injuries associated with those activities, based on standard actuarial tables, would be orders of magnitude higher than for fossil fuel power, rather than lower as you claim. Naturally, the same sorts of considerations apply to wind power and geothermal, for the same reasons: lower power density means more materials and more people involved, which in turn means more injuries and deaths, not less. The implication of the reasoning is straightforward: the energy source with the highest power density--i.e., nuclear--is necessarily going to be the safest. --Mitchell Jones}*** and I have yet to see one of >these methods end up on the SuperFund/SuperFraud list as something that >needed to be cleaned up. > >>You can fear monger airplane flight the same way, >>point out that peoples lives are hanging literally >>by a tread -- yet a rational look at fatality rates >>finds airline flights far safer per traveler mile >>than any other form of tranportation. > >There are different ways of calculating the number of accidental air >fatalities as well. The aviation industry counts the number of fatalities >per number of miles traveled. Viewed in terms of number of trips made, it >doesn't work out as well. I don't fear monger, John, but I do have a >concern for peoples' well being that supercedes the so called >"practicalities" of an artificial marketplace. Sensible, economical >solutions and alternatives exist for almost every one of today's problems. >What stands in the way is the unwillingness of the business community to >improve their products if it costs them money. > >Knuke > >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 09:10:44 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA20118; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:09:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:09:50 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991106110909.009ebac0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 11:09:09 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Curl free magnetic vector potential waves In-Reply-To: <3823D648.6235 ca-ois.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"EaYUU3.0.Bw4.U369u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31508 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:18 PM 11/5/99 -0800, Jim Ostrowski wrote: >Frank went on to say that the bottom line is that he did not really >understand the Magnetic Vector potential in depth either, but if you >would fill me in on the details of what kind of test config you and >Scott were talking about before.... We were talking about communicating using A-phi waves. Waves composed of phi (the eletric scalar potential) and A (the magnetic vector potential) analogous to E-M waves but containing absolutely no E or B. Yes, this is also the subject of the Gelinas patents. Some folks like to say that A is just a mathematical construct to make solving EM problems easier. However, the operation of a toroidal xfmr makes me think that A is a very real field. Energize a perfect toroid with AC current. All the B is contained inside the toroidal core and B is identically zero everywhere outside the core. However, the magnetic vector potential, A, fills all of space around the toroid. It's "lines" loop through the center hole of the toroid. Thread a loop of wire through the center hole and connect the ends. POW! a huge current is induced in the loop by...what? The B inside the core cannot possibly "touch" the electrons in the loop of wire. The only thing out there is the A. Maxwell's eqns will yield E = -dA/dt and that expression accurately predicts the voltage that appears in the threaded loop. Now unthread the loop and connect it into a loop again but this time NOT going through the center hole in the toroid. No current will flow in the loop this time. That's because even though the loop is immersed in a strong alternating A field, the field has zero curl (i.e. there's no B inside any closed loop out there). The line integral around any closed loop in this zero-curl field is identically zero (Stokes theorem, I believe). Fun fact: The A field that equatorially encircles the Earth is about 150 tesla-meters, higher than anything that can possibly be created in the laboratory. Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 09:15:20 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA21659; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:14:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:14:33 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991106111348.009d6330 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 11:13:48 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: fields...or not In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"kP1gs2.0.LI5.u769u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31509 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:01 AM 11/6/99 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{I think you should keep it simple. If your probes are out along the >axis of a dipole, the RF emissions will be minimized, and when the excess >electrons move away from the nearby pole, there will be no ambiguity about >the movement. OK, fine. I agree that this geometry will be cleaner. >As to why no physical field can be mathematically continuous in space, the >answer is that such a notion would imply that the forces exerted by the >field are not delivered by particles, which would imply that the work done >by those forces is not done by entities, which in turn would mean that the >energy involved simply leaps into existence out of nothing.... Why do you say the energy involved has to leap into existence out of nothing? It's perfectly consistent to say the field itself has energy and that, when it does work on a particle, the field energy decreases accordingly. Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 10:24:26 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA01970; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 10:19:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 10:19:38 -0800 Message-ID: <01BF2840.7E3D2E60 istf-1-68.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Radiation Sickness Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 10:20:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BF2840.7E3EB500" Resent-Message-ID: <"nGrgi1.0.iU.v479u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31510 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF2840.7E3EB500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mitchell Jones wrote: [big snip] > the energy source with the highest power density--i.e., nuclear-- > is necessarily going to be the safest. --Mitchell Jones}*** ...except for when it isn't. There is a vast difference in the = consequences of catastrophic failure of one system vs the other. This doesn't include the social costs of the high-security state = necessary to ensure against theft, terrorism etc throughout the nuclear = cycle. And then there's the waste, low-level and otherwise, dangerous = for a period of time longer than our civilization has existed. And the = cost - which has been presented here as merely a result of unnecessary = regulation... but without that costly regulation your esteemed safety = record argument would be out the window. 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Knuke said: > >There are different ways of calculating the number of accidental air >fatalities as well. The aviation industry counts the number of fatalities >per number of miles traveled. Viewed in terms of number of trips made, it >doesn't work out as well. I don't fear monger, John, but I do have a >concern for peoples' well being that supercedes the so called >"practicalities" of an artificial marketplace. ***{Why would anyone be interested in number of fatalities per trip? Since airplane crashes usually kill everyone aboard, the likelihood that a given passenger will be killed on a trip of a given length is approximately equal to the crash probability for trips of that length. If, for example, you intend to fly 1000 miles, and, for trips of that distance, one flight in 1000 crashes, then your probability of being killed on the trip will be about .001. Fatalities per trip, on the other hand, would be much higher, since fatalities per trip equals the average number of crashes per trip times the average number of passengers per flight. As such, the use of fatalities per trip would vastly exaggerate the dangers of air travel, thereby prompting people to choose in favor of alternatives that were, in fact, far more dangerous, with a resultant large increase in the number of accidental deaths. Bottom line: you are employing specious reasoning to scare people into making bad choices, both here and in the area of nuclear power. That's fear mongering in my book. I agree with John. --Mitchell Jones}*** Sensible, economical >solutions and alternatives exist for almost every one of today's problems. >What stands in the way is the unwillingness of the business community to >improve their products if it costs them money. ***{Nope. Private businesses, when left free from meddling by authoritarian idiots, will give consumers a mix of alternatives within which they can optimize, by their choices, the variables they prefer, whether they prefer safety, or speed, or comfort, or whatever. And that's the way it should be, because each individual has the right to decide how to live his life, so long as he respects the rights of others to do likewise. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Knuke > >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 17:59:39 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA12814; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 17:57:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 17:57:19 -0800 Message-ID: <001201bf28c2$5879b180$f88593c3 richie> From: "Ritchie" To: "vortex" Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 01:47:38 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF28C2.125092A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"SpYwM1.0.783.-nD9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Unidentified subject! Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31476 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF28C2.125092A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable remove ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF28C2.125092A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF28C2.125092A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 18:01:21 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA15238; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 18:00:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 18:00:04 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: No Vortex Messages on Friday Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 15:59:37 -0500 Message-ID: <19991106205937468.AAA252 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"LkDv3.0.0k3.aqD9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31477 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred wrote: >Same here, Mitchell, I think Bill Beaty took the day off. :-) > >Regards, Frederick That would be Nanook, the sysop for Eskimo North, who took the day off ;) I've met him, actually, and he's a great guy. A real character. He started Eskimo North about 15 years ago in his kitchen as a free Unix BBS, and it grew quite a lot. From what I read in the paper before I left Seattle, it was all in his basement, but was running out of room. Nanook is famous around the world with the UNIX programming community for all of the free educational stuff he has on his system. Unfortunately, it has sometimes been used as a hacker's training ground. When I first started BBSing in 90 or 91, the system was down a lot, but it is normally quite reliable today. If anything, I suspect that Nanook's telephone company had difficulties, but all seems to be back in order now. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 19:44:39 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA32580; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 19:42:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 19:42:33 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Nature and Politics Article Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 22:51:03 -0500 Message-ID: <19991107035103437.AAA204 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"ID98u.0.vy7.eKF9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31478 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, A few weeks back, I reported briefly about a US/Russian mega-deal to store nuclear waste in the former Soviet Union. I was asked for references, and gave the publication ETS as the source. Here is another article about the same deal that appeared in Nature and Politics. Enjoy, Knuke ------------------------------------------------------------------- NATURE & POLITICS [1,367] The Minatom Conspiracy On September 6 Vladimir Slivyak was walking along the sidewalk near his home in downtown Moscow when a black sedan pulled up next to him and two men got out. They told him they were officers with the Moscow Criminal Police (known as the MUR) and that he was under arrest. The men promptly hauled Slivyak into their car, seized his ID papers, and informed him he was under investigation for involvement in an act of terrorism. In this context the cops mentioned the August 31 explosion at the Manezhnaya Palace in Moscow. Now, Slivyak is a leading figure in the Social Ecological Union, Russia's largest environmental group. He's also the founder of Ecodefense, a group that has led the campaign against the Russian nuclear industry--a campaign that has begun to vex plans hatched with the complicity of top national security players here in the U.S. to make Russia the world's dump for nuclear waste. Slivyak tells Nature and Politics that he informed the officer he knew nothing about the Manezhnaya bombing (which has been widely regarded as the work of rebels supporting the secession of Dagestan) and asked them to show him their badges and identification cards. The men from MUR laughed, started the car and began driving around Moscow. One of them began roughing up Slivyak. The cop sitting in the back seat next to Slivyak identified himself as Lieut. Kosterov, from Department 6 of the MUR. He said he knew all about Slivyak and his role in terrorism, adding that he had a big file on the ties of the Russian environmental groups to terrorism. Kosterov claimed that he was 100 percent sure who planted the August 31 bomb in Moscow, that the bomber was a green, and that Slivyak knew him. This same man, said Kosterov, would soon show up at Slivyak's house and that he should call the MUR and point him out to them. Slivyak told Kosterov he would do no such thing and demanded that the police either take him to the MUR office and fill out a protocol (the equivalent of an arrest report/warrant, as required by Russian law) or let him out. Kosterov snickered, reached his hand down into a black bag and pulled out an ounce of marijuana, which he dangled in front of Slivyak's face, telling him he could either cooperate or the dope would find its way into Slivyak's backpack. Then, Kosterov said, Slivyak would be arrested for real, prosecuted under Russia's harsh drug laws, and spend the next three years in prison. Go ahead, arrest me, Slivyak replied, take me to the office and fill out a protocol. It was then that Kosterov told Slivyak that the investigation into his environmental activities went beyond the MUR. Indeed, Kosterov said that the MUR was only doing the dirty work for the Russian Security Police (FSB), the reincarnation of the KGB. The recent wave of bombings in Russia (usually credited to separatists or rightwing elements) has been used as a pretext for probes into the activities of environmentalists, who have become one of the strongest forces for political change inside Russia. The FSB has made a particular habit of targeting anti-nuclear activists. On July 2, the FSB charged environmentalist Aleksandr Nikitin with high treason and spying, claiming he divulged state secrets when he co-wrote a 1995 report on radiation hazards in the Russian Northern Fleet. The report was published by the Norwegian anti-nuke group Bellona. It is the eighth time Nikitin has been charged with such crimes. In February, the Russian Supreme Court dismissed previous charges against Nikitin, calling the case against him inconsistent, vague, and incomprehensible. The zeroing in on anti-nuke organizers has everything to do with the FSB's intimate ties with Minatom, the Russian nuclear agency. Along with the FSB, Minatom is one of the most powerful and unsupervised agencies in Russia. Russian greens such as Slivyak view Minatom as being corrupt, violent, and unanswerable to anyone. Moreover, at a time when the Russian economy is in a state of free-fall, Minatom may be the one government institution with prospects for a steady flow of revenue. In March, Yuri Adamov, the blustery head of the Russian nuclear agency, announced that Minatom was set to cash in on the international market in nuclear materials. In other words, Minatom is poised to make Russia the dumping ground for the world's radioactive waste. Adamov estimated that the potential fees for accepting the spent fuel from commercial nuclear reactors in Japan, Switzerland, and Korea alone could total $150 billion. Minatom has an American partner in this scheme, a group with the benign title of the Non-Proliferation Trust. The Trust plans to do much of the initial dirty work for Minatom, such as securing the waste from the utilities, building a nuclear waste armada, and constructing storage facilities inside Russia. This outfit is headed up by Daniel Murphy (former deputy director of the CIA), Bruce DeMars (former head of the Navy's nuclear program), and William Webster (former director of the CIA and FBI). Although the Trust is set up as a nonprofit corporation, it and its principals stand to make a ton of money from the deal, perhaps as much as $1.2 billion. They've also spread the slush around to companies with ties to key American politicians. As noted, the plan calls for the building of a fleet of nuclear waste cargo ships, by the Gulfport, Mississippi firm of Halter Marine. Halter Marine is closely linked to Senator Trent Lott. Construction of the storage facilities will be overseen by the Alaska Interstate Construction Company, an Anchorage-based outfit on good terms with Senator Frank Murkowski. The company has handled much of the work at the filthy Prudhoe Bay oil refineries. In an attempt to quash criticism by Russian enviros, the Trust brought on board the Natural Resources Defense Council and the head of its nuclear program, Thomas Cochran. In exchange for giving the project green cachet, NRDC will get 10% of the money passing through a program set up by the Trust called the Russian Environmental Fund. NRDC's take may top $20 million, a sum only slightly less than the group's annual budget. The latest round of FSB/MUR attacks on Russian anti-nuke organizers came after greens protested the Minatom/NPT deal before the Duma, where Minatom was seeking to overturn Russian environmental statutes that currently ban the import of foreign nuclear waste. The Minatom plan was defeated by a narrow margin. In the end the MUR officers released Slivyak without getting anything from him. "Finally, after spending 90 to 100 minutes in this car, I was released," Slivyak tells us. "They didn't tell me anything. They just said, 'go home.' When I asked them to return my ID papers, they shook their heads and said that I was going to be arrested sooner or later anyway and they'd keep them until then. Then they left." On September 7, an FSB agent placed a threatening phone call to Slivyak's colleague Alexey Kozlov, who is the chief anti-nuclear organizer for the Social Ecological Union in Voronezh, south of Moscow on the river Don. The FSB agent told Kozlov that he "better get his fucking ass down to the FSB headquarters" for what the agent slyly referred to as an informal conversation. The agent said he wanted Kozlov to describe the recent protest at the Novovoronezh nuclear plant and the names of the organizers and participants. Kozlov said forget it. Then the FSB man upped the ante, intimating that charges could be brought against him as well. "Your Moscow friends have some problems, I hear. You don't want to experience the same, do you?" Kozlov told the security officers he still wasn't interested. "If that's the way you want it," the agent said, "fine. But if we don't capture the bombers, consider yourself arrested." --Jeffrey St. Clair and Alexander Cockburn Nature & Politics appears weekly in the Anderson Valley Advertiser (PO Box 459, 12451 Anderson Valley Way, Boonville, CA 95415, $38/year). Cockburn and St. Clair also edit the biweekly newsletter CounterPunch, which "tells the facts and names the names" (3220 N. Street NW, PMB 346, Washington, DC 2007-2829, $40/year). Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 19:49:49 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA02924; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 19:48:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 19:48:28 -0800 Message-ID: <382500F2.7663 ca-ois.com> Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 20:32:50 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The "Principle of Continuity" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YFmov2.0.Zj.CQF9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31479 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Jim Ostrowski wrote: > > > > Mitchell Jones proposed that there is what he calls a "Principle of > > Continuity" which, if it were even suggested that it were not really a > > "principle" then the idea expressed in such a suggestion would have to be > > false, or else, if not, ALL of our concepts of reality and knowledge could > > then possibly be illusory and false as well, including the "knowledge" by > > someone that such a suggestion was even made in the first place! > > > > In other words, the acceptance by someone of the idea that things might be > > able to come into existence out of "nothing" or, conversely, vanish out of > > existence into "nothing" would constitute a belief system that if it were > > widely held, he supposes, could shatter the entire framework of so called > > "common knowledge" because then, one could never be sure that what one is > > talking about is real or not. Mitchell Jones wrote: > > ***{My reasoning about the principle of continuity has nothing to do with > whether an idea is "widely held" or is "common knowledge." Both of these > notions assume the existence of other people, an external world in which > other people can live, and that those other people have minds in which > ideas can be "common knowledge." The principle of continuity--that no thing > may come into existence out of nothing or vanish into nothing--must be > accepted prior to the adoption of such beliefs. Let's examine your premise then. You claim that this "principle" is more fundamental than an individual's belief in an external reality, which assumes the existence of other people. So therefore if one happens to believe in the idea that "something may come into existence out of nothing and that something can vanish into nothing" by means of, say "magic" (which is merely technology that he does not understand - Yhe Clarke Principle-) then that person is not allowed to believe in the existence of an external reality. Is this correct? If existence as we "know" it is continuous, how does one billiard ball transfer information about it's momentum and direction to the other billiard ball? Let's say there is what I call Ostrowski's theorem (that's OstroWski with a W -double you- for those of you who need to adjust the focus control on their monitors...) which states the following: 1. All data transfer is the result of pre-coding. 2. There is no data that can be trasferred within a time frame = 0. The only way I could I could agree that the universe were in a continuous state of existence (as I understand the meaning of the word "existence") is if the above theorem could be proven false. This is because the most fundamental unit of information, the binary "bit", takes a finite amount of time to form. There are no bits which start and complete in time t=0. No one has ever devised an encoding scheme for ANY kind of infromation transfer which can send a bit from one object to another where there is no delay in the time between "cause" and "effect" that is taken up by an information propagation interval. This interval must be composed of the summation of all times where atoms stop what they are doing for an interval long enough to both recieve, interpret, and begin to respond to the update in the change in momentum information as is transferred by the first billiard ball to the second. Although the striking of one billiard ball against another appears to happen very suddenly, as phenomena go it is only of average duration, and the acceleration rate is mediocre, a hundred or so microseconds per millimeter/sec, and the resulting "crack" sound lasts almost a tenth of a second. The imparting of the information about what the second billiard ball must do in response to the impingement of the first takes a fimite amount of time to be transferred, therefore there is no "continuous" transition from cause to effect that is not interrrupted by an information proagation interval where all motion of "atoms" must cease, and thereafter begin to take up new directions of motion in response to the information tranferred during the "bit" interval. If the motion of atoms cease, then for all practical purposes they cease to exist at any detectable level, because the atoms in any detection apparatus stop as well for similar intervals coincident in time in order to recieve information "bits" about what they are supposed to do next. On the other hand, if these discontinuous motions of atoms become out of phase relative from one object to another, things can appear to vanish into "nothing" or come into existence out of "nothing", as reported by countless observers over the centuries as the appearnce of "ghosts". Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 21:22:41 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA18358; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 21:21:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 21:21:40 -0800 Message-ID: <008f01bf28b0$2f7adf00$d4441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Electrostatic devices Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 15:39:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF286D.1BD8C2C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Fbe-G1.0.fU4.ZnG9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31481 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF286D.1BD8C2C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here are some dielectric constants, Colin. http://electron6.phys.utk.edu/136/modules/m6/conductor.htm Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF286D.1BD8C2C0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Electrostatic devices.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Electrostatic devices.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://electron6.phys.utk.edu/136/modules/m6/conductor.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://electron6.phys.utk.edu/136/modules/m6/conductor.htm Modified=006BEFFCAF28BF01ED ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF286D.1BD8C2C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 21:22:59 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA18453; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 21:21:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 21:21:49 -0800 Message-ID: <008e01bf28ae$3daafda0$d4441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: The Potential Difference Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 15:25:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF286B.242242A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"SclOm3.0.5W4.inG9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31482 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF286B.242242A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Something to while away the time while the Liberal Arts Level Science discussions are flooding Vortex-L :-) http://electron6.phys.utk.edu/136/modules/m6/Potential.htm FJS ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF286B.242242A0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="The Potential Difference.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="The Potential Difference.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://electron6.phys.utk.edu/136/modules/m6/Potential.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://electron6.phys.utk.edu/136/modules/m6/Potential.htm Modified=80FFD3B0AD28BF0197 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF286B.242242A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 21:23:37 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA18213; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 21:21:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 21:21:13 -0800 Message-ID: <00b101bf28c9$1c1d8f20$d4441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: U.S. Consumer Gateway Home Page Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 18:37:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF2885.F59E0AC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"KuSwr3.0.VS4.9nG9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31480 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF2885.F59E0AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Great site for info on fuel economy for that gas guzzler. That ~8 tons/year pollution is indicates switching to a bike would be a good idea. :-) http://www.consumer.gov/ Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF2885.F59E0AC0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="U.S. Consumer Gateway Home Page.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="U.S. Consumer Gateway Home Page.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.consumer.gov/ [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.consumer.gov/ Modified=A0C00B91C828BF01AC ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF2885.F59E0AC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Nov 6 23:23:21 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA09037; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 23:22:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 23:22:23 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <0.67d555c3.255682a8 aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 02:22:16 EST Subject: H2K: Calibration with H2 fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: Verdian aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA09015 Resent-Message-ID: <"V7E613.0.7D2.lYI9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31483 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, I have finished calibration runs of glow discharge in a .22 diameter quartz tube. All runs use an electrode gap of 0.5 inch. Upper electrode is positive potential, lower,negative. Both electrodes are 0.125 diameter W rods. The anode rod has a round end (.062 radius) while the cathode has a sharp 30 degree cone pointed end. I have found this arrangement is the best for a stable discharge and also keeps tube wall contamination by W vapor at a minimum. Much trial and error to get to this. The power supply is capable of supplying 3500 volts at 1 ampere of well filtered DC. The positive side of the power supply is grounded. A bank of 16 25 watt incandescent lamps in series is used as a ballast. The lamps are in the circuit at the low potential side of the reactor tube as shown below: TUBE BALLAST PS (-)--[///////]--(A)--/\/\/\/\/--(+) PS |____(V)___| The ammeter is connected directly in circuit as shown while the voltmeter measures the voltage across a 100:1 divider network,not shown in this ASCII drawing. Both meters are Radio Shack digital auto-ranging multimeters Cat Num 22-174B. The reactor tube is completely enclosed in a 1/2 inch diameter copper pipe 3 inches long with the ends necked down to a snug fit around the 3/8 inch diameter quartz tube. This copper pipe has a K type thermocouple attached to the outside by a 8x32 screw. The copper pipe is enclosed in a steel can 2� inches diameter and 4 inches in length, packed with fiberglass insulation. The copper pipe is held centered in the steel can by a ceramic support at each end of the can. Tube fill pressure is monitored by a Baratron MKS 626A absolute pressure sensor. Temperature is monitored by a Fluke model 51 electronic thermometer and the K thermocouple. I do three runs at each fill pressure.Exception: One of the 20 torr runs was at 20.7 torr but I decided to leave it as is. On each run with a new quartz tube I first flush the tube 5 times with H2 (fill to 1000 torr then pump down for 15 minutes) then I run at a low current glow discharge current of about 2 milliamps while pumping the best vacuum I can (~25 millitorr) for 3 hours. I then fill the tube with H2 to the fill for the run and try to keep the tube current at about 20 to 25 milliamps. Higher current causes W vapor to deposit on the tube walls which screws up the discharge (conductive plating on the tube walls) while lower current gives problems with keeping the glow stable. OK, nuff said bout the setup, so here is the raw data for all 18 runs,dashes separating the columns: Fill=Torr �.1 torr Tc=tube degrees C �0.1 C Tv=tube voltage �1% Ta=tube amperes �1% Tw=tube watts (Tv x Ta) Tc/W= degrees C per Watt FILL---Tc-----Tv-----Ta-----Tw----Tc/W 10.0--345.8--1564--0.0204--31.90--10.84 10.0--370.8--1835--0.0215--39.45--09.39 10.0--295.1--1076--0.0238--25.60--11.52 20.7--221.9--0759--0.0257--19.50--11.37 20.0--193.5--0766--0.0219--16.77--11.53 20.0--203.5--0750--0.0209--15.67--12.98 50.0--193.7--0625--0.0227--14.18--13.66 50.0--170.5--0588--0.0219--12.87--13.24 50.0--181.9--0615--0.0215--13.22--13.75 100.0-206.1--0740--0.0228--16.87--12.21 100.0-209.4--0734--0.0235--17.24--12.14 100.0-210.1--0689--0.0230--15.84--13.26 150.0-190.6--0716--0.0214--15.32--12.44 150.0-239.5--0788--0.0231--17.97--13.32 150.0-200.8--0801--0.0194--15.54--12.92 175.0-221.1--0909--0.0229--20.81--10.67 175.0-241.5--0834--0.0225--18.76--12.87 175.0-225.2--0844--0.0213--17.97--12.53 I now have a pretty good feeling of tube temperatures for a given power input. Of course now when I dump K in the tube it will open another can of worms,like K plating out on the tube walls and so on. I plan to load the K in the tube at the very bottom of the tube,underneath the cathode to try avoid contamination around the tip of the cathode. The lower end of the tube gets hot enough to melt and boil the K. I'll have to play around with the amount of K,just enuf to get some vapor in there without too much to cause electrode and tube wall contamination. As always, comments and suggestions are most welcome. Phone calls always welcome also. I would ask if anyone wants to phone with questions or comments, give me a lead here as a post first then call. Sorry for the s l o w progress but I have been busy with family and such but never too busy to take a call. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 04:55:42 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA00551 for billb eskimo.com; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 04:55:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 04:55:42 -0800 Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 04:55:42 -0800 X-Envelope-From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 04:55:42 1999 Message-ID: <382575B5.C67996A4 carrollsweb.com> Old-Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 06:51:01 -0600 From: Rod Reply-To: lobo eskimo.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: unsubscribe lobo carrollsweb.com References: <0.67d555c3.255682a8 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"quSEK.0.K8.ERN9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31484 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: /usr/sbin/sendmail vortex-l-dist eskimo.com failed X-Diagnostic: Mail coming from a daemon, ignored X-Diagnostic: Possible loopback problem X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: Unsubscribe lobo carrollsweb.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 08:05:17 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA04999; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 08:04:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 08:04:10 -0800 Sender: jack mail3.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <3825B16A.2DA20F66 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 17:05:46 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Scientist Planet Science Five and counting... References: <001c01bf280b$db4d70e0$5a301c3f w98sysrec> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4040FEE3386B8F5B50D3EFE1" Resent-Message-ID: <"0Xazc2.0.-D1.wBQ9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31485 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4040FEE3386B8F5B50D3EFE1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit doclewis wrote: Check out the URL and see what you think. Randall Lewis doclewis gateway.net http://www.newscientist.com/ns/981024/fifth.html Hi Doc, This is a good article. I'm attaching most of it. Jack Smith --------------4040FEE3386B8F5B50D3EFE1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="akk5.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="akk5.txt" 24 October 1998, Five and counting..., by Marcus Chown, New Scientist ... A growing band of physicists believe that the four dimensions of our everyday Universe--three of space and one of time--are just the tip of the iceberg. What's more, they say, we may soon be able to see the effects of the fifth dimension. It might even show its hand in the next round of accelerator experiments--a prospect that is enough to make any particle physicist's mouth water. And not only for its own sake. It would be a giant step on the long march to a Theory of Everything, the long-sought theory that will unify the four fundamental forces of physics. If we discovered a fifth dimension, it would be the most important discovery since quantum theory, says Gordon Kane, a theorist from the University of Michigan. The idea of a fifth dimension is not new. It arose out of work by two German mathematicians, Theodor Kaluza and Oskar Klein, in the 1920s. Taking their cue from Einstein, who had demonstrated that gravity arose from the curvature of the four-dimensional fabric of space-time, the two mathematicians, working independently, sought to show that the electromagnetic force might be accounted for by a fifth dimension. To explain why the effects of the dimension were never seen at normal energies and distances, they assumed that the fifth dimension must be rolled up smaller than an atom. In Kaluza-Klein (KK) theory, each point of normal space is actually a loop in this fifth dimension. A charged particle, even if it is at rest in normal space, travels ceaselessly around the loop like a hamster in a wheel. What we call electric charge is actually motion in this hidden dimension. There are a number of satisfying connections between this motion and classical electromagnetism: for instance, if you apply Newton's decree that for every action along the rolled-up dimension there is a reaction, you get the law of conservation of electric charge. Despite their successes, however, Kaluza and Klein failed to come up with a unified description that encompasses both the electromagnetic force and gravity. The other two fundamental forces--the weak force, which acts on quarks to change their "flavour", say, from an up quark to a down quark, and the strong force, which changes what is called the "colour" charge of quarks--had not been discovered at the time. To construct a framework that encompasses all four, modern versions of KK theory have to postulate even more dimensions. Quark properties such as flavour and colour become orbital dances in multidimensional KK loops. And today's superstring theories, which view the fundamental building blocks of matter as four-dimensional manifestations of tiny pieces of vibrating "string", require a total of 10 dimensions. The six extra dimensions are usually said to be rolled up with a radius of curvature of 10-35 metres. This is the Planck length--the scale at which gravity becomes comparable in strength to the other forces of nature. The uncertainty principle that is central to quantum theory dictates that the smaller the scale you want to probe, the higher the energy you need to use, so the tiny Planck scale corresponds to a massive 10^19 gigaelectronvolts (GeV) (see Table, p 31). This energy was available to particles only during the first split second of the big bang. It is 100 trillion times the highest energies achieved in today's particle accelerators. No wonder the fifth dimension has until recently been considered a mere curiosity. What has changed everything is the realisation that the extra dimensions needn't be curled up as small as the Planck length. "There was never any compelling reason why this should be so, except that the Planck length is a natural physical scale," says Keith Dienes of CERN, the European Laboratory for Particle Physics. "If the extra dimensions are bigger than the Planck scale, their effects could be felt by particles at lower energy, perhaps even as low as 1000 GeV, which will be easily attainable by the LHC." The idea that the extra dimensions might come into play at distances much larger than the Planck scale began with Ignatios Antoniadis of the Ecole Polytechnique in Paris. In 1990, he was trying to solve a complex problem in superstring theory, and realised that the problem could be solved with large extra dimensions that had just such characteristics. However, he then faced a new difficulty. More dimensions automatically bring new particles into existence, and these have troublesome effects. The new particles arise because all elementary particles can also behave like waves. It is hard to picture, but when an elementary particle travels in higher dimensions, its wavelike component bounces around in the higher dimension and produce a series of "echoes". These echoes, called Kaluza-Klein states, would appear to us as wholly new particles. For instance, the Z boson, one of the carriers of the weak nuclear force, would have a whole series of more massive cousins that would be conjured into existence in high-energy collisions. The problem Antoniadis faced concerns attempts to come up with a Grand Unified Theory (GUT). Any such theory must explain how the electromagnetic, strong and weak forces separated out from a single unified force as the early Universe cooled--and, conversely, how at increasingly high energies the three forces would merge back into one. According to theory, the weak and electromagnetic forces grow stronger and the strong force weaker with increasing energy. They unify into a single force at around 10^16 GeV. Unfortunately, the appearance of legions of new force- carrying particles from the fifth dimension makes the strong and electroweak forces stronger than expected. And most physicists, including Antoniadis, reckoned that they would be too strong to be handled by conventional mathematical techniques. This seemed to throw an enormous spanner in the works. "It's more than a mathematical problem," says Dienes. "The forces were thought to get so strong as to invalidate the entire theoretical approach to unification. It's like trying to model quarks as free particles when the forces between them are so strong that free quarks are an impossibility." Antoniadis found a way to get round his problem, and so preserve unification at 10^16 GeV, by cancelling out the effects of the KK echoes. But earlier this year, Dienes and two colleagues from CERN--Emilian Dudas and Tony Gherghetta-- wondered what would happen if KK echoes were allowed to have their wicked way with the strengths of the electroweak and strong forces. The three quickly confirmed that some of the forces became strong very quickly. But to their surprise, they found that the forces still unify. What's more, the unification happened when the forces were still weak enough to be handled by conventional mathematical techniques. "Contrary to what everyone thought, unification is possible at a lower energy than 10^16 GeV," says Dienes. "In fact, if the extra dimensions are rolled up to only 10-19 metres, just beyond the resolution of current experiments, the unification energy could be as low as 1000 GeV." The researchers were amazed because unification at such a low energy was supposed to be impossible. One reason was proton decay. Although GUTs predict that protons should decay, such decay has never been seen. The usual explanation is that the decay involves one of the particles carrying the GUT force--the force formed when the strong and electroweak force are unified. This particle would be so heavy it is hardly ever created. But if the GUT scale is lowered from 10^16 GeV, the carriers of the GUT force are correspondingly lighter, so we should see lots of protons decaying. "Fortunately, a fifth dimension comes to the rescue," says Dienes. Proton decay must conserve momentum in five dimensions, and the properties of a fifth dimension can be chosen so that many of the factors that contribute to proton decay violate the conservation of momentum in five dimensions and so do not occur. The particles that carry the GUT force include the photon of the electromagnetic force, the three bosons of the weak force and the eight gluons of the strong force. But particle physicists expect that scores of other particles carrying the GUT force will make an appearance at unification. These particles, the X and Y bosons, may mediate processes which favour matter over antimatter, and so explain why matter rather than antimatter dominates our Universe. Physicists expect that if they can glimpse what happens as unification takes place, they will see the mechanism that endows elementary particles with mass: what it is that makes a top quark about a million times heavier than an electron, for instance. Bringing the GUT scale down as low as 1000 GeV with a fifth dimension rolled up to 10-19 metres is a huge step. But other physicists have suggested something even more remarkable: that a fifth dimension could come into play at sizes as big as a millimetre. Earlier this year, Nima Arkani-Hamed and Savas Dimopoulos at Stanford University in California and Gia Dvali of the Abdus Salam International Centre for Theoretical Physics in Trieste, Italy, set out to address a problem that has puzzled particle physicists. This is the huge size of the gap between the electroweak scale at a few hundred GeV, when the electromagnetic and weak forces mix, and the other scales of physics. Their idea was that the problem would go away if the Planck scale--the one at which gravity becomes comparable to the other forces--was lowered to the electroweak scale. They found that this could be done with two or more extra dimensions less than a millimetre in size which gravity alone notices. "Incredibly, this does not conflict with any laboratory, cosmological or astrophysical constraints," says Arkani-Hamed. If Arkani-Hamed's team is right, KK echoes of gravitons could make gravity millions of times stronger than the inverse-square law predicts, and perhaps even repulsive, on scales less than 100 micrometres. Table-top experiments are under way at Stanford and the University of Colorado to test this extraordinary suggestion. "We expect preliminary results within a year," says John Price of the University of Colorado in Boulder. So now we have the possibility of a big extra dimension bringing the GUT scale down from 10^16 GeV and two or more big gravity-only dimensions bringing the Planck scale down from 10^19 GeV. Of the ultra high-energy scales of physics, that only leaves the string scale--the characteristic energy of strings at which string theory predicts that all the fundamental forces would unify. It turns out there has been movement on this front as well--movement, furthermore, that promises to pull everything else together into a satisfyingly coherent picture. Physicists have long been puzzled why the GUT scale at 10^16 GeV is so close to the string scale at 10^18 GeV and yet does not coincide with it. In 1996, Ed Witten of the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, New Jersey, suggested that in a certain class of "open string" theories a relatively large extra dimension could lower the string scale to the GUT scale. Later in the same year, Joseph Lykken of Fermilab near Chicago went the whole hog, suggesting that the string scale might be lowered all the way to 1000 GeV. But, in Lykken's scenario, what do you do with the five remaining dimensions of string theory? The recent developments suggest an answer. "One or two dimensions can be used to lower the GUT scale and the rest--gravity-only dimensions around a millimetre or smaller--can be used to lower the Planck scale," says Dienes. "These scenarios not only fit together very well but explain how to lower all the fundamental scales of physics to accessible energy scales." The implications of being able to observe events on the GUT, string and Planck scales are truly mind-boggling. We would for the first time be able to see strings, the ultimate foundation stones of reality. And, with the Planck scale lowered, experimental tests of quantum gravity--the long-sought unification of Einstein's theory of gravity with quantum theory--might be just around the corner. "Collider experiments might be able to warp space, make new universes and create small black holes," says Arkani-Hamed ... The unmistakable signature of an extra dimension would be particle events such as higher-energy KK echoes of, say, a Z boson. The energies of such particles would reflect the radius of the extra dimension. If it were, say, 10-19 metres, then the separation would be 1000 GeV. In other words, the ordinary Z boson with an energy of 91 GeV would have cousins with energies of 1091 GeV, 2091 GeV, 3091 GeV, and so on. Such energies would be achievable with the next round of particle accelerators. It's a notion physicists find thrilling even if, as the more cautious among them warn, the threshold might still be higher than this. The consequences of a much lower unification scale could be enormous. "All physics assumes unification occurs at an energy so high that it has no direct effect on the familiar world," says Dienes. "If it occurs at a lower energy, it would change everything, including our picture of the evolution of the Universe from the big bang." Even simple laws of physics would change, according to Matt Visser of Washington University in St Louis. He singles out the Stefan-Boltzmann law, which states that the energy density of the radiation from a hot body such as the Sun is proportional to the fourth power of its temperature. If there were more dimensions, the law would have a different exponent--the total number of space-time dimensions," he says ... "The connection between KK theory and faster-than-light travel is pretty tenuous, and exists mainly in the minds of a few science-fiction writers," says John Cramer of the University of Washington in Seattle ... --------------4040FEE3386B8F5B50D3EFE1-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 09:30:42 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA18818; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 09:28:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 09:28:58 -0800 Message-ID: <012c01bf294d$f3aec100$d4441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Neutrino-AntiNeutrino Pair Production Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 10:27:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"cdal31.0.yb4.QRR9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31486 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In QM, at the classical ground-state Radius R= 5.29E-11, V = kq/R = 27.2 ev For orbits 1 to n, V = kq/(n^2*R): Orbit (n^2) V (ev) 2(pi)R 2(pi)R/(lambda V) 1 1 27.2 3.323E-10 alpha 2 4 6.80 1.3295E-9 alpha 3 9 3.02 2.9900E-9 alpha 10 100 0.272 3.3238E-8 alpha where (lambda V) is the photon wavelength corresponding to it's energy (joules) = hc/joules which for 0.272 ev = 4.564E-6 meters or 4.564 Microns, an infrared photon which has a Wiens Displacement Law peak at 2898/4.564 ~ = 635 Degrees Kelvin. IOW, certain photons at a resonance peak can become circularized in a hydrogen orbit and become Neutrinos and/or AntiNeutrinos and with participation of an electron, form Quasi-Neutrons or what Mills calls "Fractional Orbit" Hydrinos. In Electron-Positron Pair Production from a photon of 1.02 Mev, the same relationship of the Compton Wavelength h/mc = 2.427E-12 meters as compared to 2(pi)*2.81E-15 meters (the classical wavelength of the electron) is off by a factor of 137 also, but they have a charge. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 09:40:21 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA21174; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 09:38:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 09:38:54 -0800 Message-ID: <3825C1C3.42F6 ca-ois.com> Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 10:15:32 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Discontinuity of motion experiment References: <008e01bf28ae$3daafda0$d4441d26 fjsparber> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------31E165927733" Resent-Message-ID: <"8QUf4.0.mA5.jaR9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31487 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------31E165927733 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frederick Sparber wrote: > > Something to while away the time while the Liberal Arts Level > Science discussions are flooding Vortex-L :-) > Yeah yeah.... Well here's an experiment for you Frederick. Just so you know this isn't all just talk. http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/PDM.html#PD Moment The discussion of the "principle" of discontinuity (of atomic motion) having to do with the above experiment can be found at: http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Setup1.html#Setup No. 1 Below is a gif of one of the experimental setups. 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(Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Paradoxes - the "principle" of continuity References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3E1316756B9D" Resent-Message-ID: <"vNV14.0.Cf.LLS9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31488 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3E1316756B9D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit gnorts, Attached is from the website concerning discontinuity of atomic motion experiments. Enjoy! JO --------------3E1316756B9D Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="PARDX.HTM" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="PARDX.HTM" Content-Base: "file:///C|/NETSCAPE/PARDX.HTM" The Paradoxes and Contradictions of Continuous Motion</HEAD>

The Paradoxes and Contradictions
of Continuous Motion

We are naturally inclined to believe that we have become very sophisticated in matters scientific; yet it is an object of record that ever since Zeno of Elea, all the philosophers of the world, from Aristotle to Einstein and including the seers of divine mentality who presumed to found religions, have remained incapable of solving the paradoxes which Zeno proposed 400 years before Christ.

Incapable, that is, except by proposing new paradoxes which were by nature more insoluble than the first for being more remote from any possibility of perception.

Never has perception produced any paradoxes.

When we see a thing, and especially if we can show this thing to everybody else, then the thing is there; it is real. It is only when we start imagining qualities about this thing that paradoxes appear.

When Zeno saw that his Achilles could, in practice, not only reach but outdistance the tortoise, he had access to a fact of reality; but when he started imagining qualities that did not properly belong to this fact of reality, then he found that there wer e contradictions between this real fact and the products of his imagination. These contradictions are termed paradoxes, and they come from the mind only, not from objective fact.

All paradoxes of motion are solved if we can prove experimentally that motion is quantized or discrete, just like the energy that produces it.

The experiments in these web pages demonstrate that, contrarily to continuity, the discreteness of motion is both logical and mathematical, for it is perfectly accessible to our sensory perception. In this case, our mathematics are real or objective, and not merely abstract or imaginative.

We now present some of the outstanding problems and paradoxes of motion.

The Paradoxes of Zeno

Achilles and the Tortoise:

Problem:
Zeno's first paradox involves a race between Achilles and a tortoise. Although he has a ten to one advantage in velocity over the tortoise, Achilles is far from being able to overtake and outdistance the tortoise. He cannot even come close enough to touch the tortoise because each time he covers the distance to the point where the tortoise was, the tortoise has gone forward one tenth of that distance.

Solution:
This is logically correct as long as the distance between the two remains longer than one "ultimate cosmic step" of Achilles. Since this last step, like all others, is ten times as long as that of the tortoise, this is where Achil les will overtake and start to outdistance the tortoise.

The purely logical nature of Zeno's concept of continuous motion must then give way to the practical discontinuity that is a matter of everyday experience, and that is now perceptively demonstrated in these web pages.

The Arrow:

Problem:
Zeno contends that a moving object, such as an arrow in flight, can never really be anywhere, since it can neither move where it is nor were it is not. In other words, the arrow cannot fly because it is either continually moving or continually at rest. Th erefore, if the arrow occupies a point in space, it must be resting there, and not moving.

Solution:
The discontinuity of motion allows us to realize that at each cosmic stop any moving body is in a perfect local state relatively to all other bodies in the cosmos, and to realize also that this perfect universal rel ation is instantaneously altered at each cosmic step. This is both the practicality and the intelligibility of a displacement from where a body is, to where it is going. It is Zeno's logic, and not our everyday practical experience, that is faulty.

The Dichotomy:

Problem:
Zeno assumes that space can be subdivided ad infinitum, in that no point in space can ever be reached because there is always an infinity of points to be traversed before reaching any point. This would mean that motion is logically impossible.

Solution:
In practice, a point is is reached by jumping instantaneously from one point to another (see Quantum Leap).

The points are not in space really, but they constitute the extreme limits of the body itself, and are carried by it through the nothingness of space.

It is therefore only because Zeno's logic was imaginative rather than perceptive, that for him motion was logically impossible. Had he known of the discontinuous nature of motion, his paradoxes would never have occurred to him.

The Stadium:

Problem:
If three adjoing rows of three columns are tied at the base in each row, and then the first and third rows are pulled simultaneously right and left in relation to the second row, we may assume that each column in the first row bypasses a column in the thi rd row in half the time that it bypasses a column in the second row. Since the time has to be identical becuase the pulling of the two rows is simultaneous, we are left to wonder how half the time can equal the whole time.

Solution:
The answer, of course, is that time has nothing to do with the actual displacement, since the steps are instantaneous. Time is only the measure of the stops, or of the durations of perfect immobility between the steps. As these stops were all simultaneous, there is no question at all of "half the time" being involved in the shifting of the columns. Both shiftings took their full time.

Zeno's Paradoxes - Conclusion

The conclusion to all this is that paradoxes are the results of faulty logic, a logic that does not correspond to perceivable reality.

If motion were continuous we must agree with Zeno, against all experience, that motion is impossible. To claim that the continuity of motion is explained by the presumed continuity of our abstract mathematics is not an empirical answer and therefore is no answer at all, for it is using the imaginary to prove the imaginary. Since we do perceive motion, we either must reject the value of sense experience, or else reject the logical assumption that is contradicted by sense experience. This logical assumption is that of the continuity of motion.

Aristotle's Wheel Paradox

Problem:
The big wheel rolls from A to B. Each time a point on the rim of the large wheel touches line AB, a point on the rim of the small wheel touches line CD. All points on the small wheel are thus put into one-to-one correspondence with a ll points on the large wheel. This would indicate that the circumferences of the two wheels are equal in length, which evidently is not the case.

Solution:
Our difficulty here is that we presume that the small wheel and the big wheel can be put into point-to-point correspondence in motion, just as it can in immobility. In reality, the points on the big wheel make longer quantum leaps than the points on the small wheel. They are not therefore in real correspondence.

A good way to understand this, is to realize that no matter whether a moving body spins, wobbles, or produces any form of displacement whatever, it is always the centre of gravity that determines both positions in relation to the centre of gravity. In mot ion, there is no such thing as a correspondence of points, for all points make their own necessary leaps to retain their relative position.

We always have to remember that time is the only constant, while leaps are all variable.

The Lorentz-Fitzgerald Contraction

Problem:
The Lorentz-Fitgerald Contraction theorized that any object moving at a high velocity should contract in the direction it travels until it reaches the velocity of light, at which point it will disappear completely. The amount of contraction can nev er be properly measured because any measuring device would contract with the object being measured.

Being convinced of the reality of the space-time continuum, which means the continuity of space and time and therefore of motion itself, Albert Einstein accepted the Lorentz contraction as the reason for the perceivable effect of the Michelson-M orely experiment. It eventually became the basis for his Theory of Relativity.

The Lorentz contraction can only be explained through abstract mathematics. It is, in fact, an infinite sequence equation and admittedly beyond our sense experience. Like the paradoxes of Zeno, it is a purely logical assumption.

This assumption of contraction leads to the following postulates:

The velocity of light is constant throughout the cosmos;
The velocity of light is the highest attainable velocity;
Interstellar space travel is forever impossible.

These three postulates are invalid if the original assumption is false, and this assumption is false if the continuity of motion is not a fact.

And yet there is little real empirical evidence to support either the contraction or the theory of relativity. It is easy to understand why the contraction would remain unpercievable here on earth, since all measuring rods would themselves contract; but i s this not an a priori admission that we cannot prove what we are saying?

And what about the sun?

We know that the milky way nebula travels away from the cosmic center at 45,000 miles per second. This is roughly 25% of the velocity of light which would mean a quite perceivable contraction in the direction of the nebulas's travel. Twice a year also we would be privileged to observe the sun's contraction in line with its rotation around the nebula; the sun would be contracted in at least two ways at once, and since it is rotating, its surface would be caved in continually in both ways at once.

And what about the planets and their moons, and our moon? Do they not all travel at the speed of the nebula? How do we explain that there is not a trace of contraction in any one of them, and no indication of cave-in or squeezing in the crust of our own e arth?

In addition to all this, velocities higher than the speed of light have already been perceived by astronomers, notably in the Crab Nebula, and in some subatomic particles. The higher-than-light velocity of some of these particles has even been de scribed as non-relativistic. But why should some cosmic events follow relativistic laws and others not? And if the Lorentz-Fitzgerald Contraction is factual, how is it we can see these events at all? Objects moving faster than the speed o f light are supposed to disappear.

Solution:
If the scienctific establishment defines relativistic motion as a continuous motion that cannot exceed the velocity of light, and then admits at the same time that there is such a thing as non-relativisitic motion, it is evident that scientists are confus ed on the nature of motion.

The answer of course is that there is no such thing as a contraction. The Lorentz-Fitzgerald Contraction was formulated in order to explain the Michelson- Morely experiment in terms of motion continuity; that is, before we knew motion was discont inuous.

If an object perceivably exceeds the velocity of light it means that it did not disappear, and it means also that the contraction equation is purely imaginary and has no basis in physical reality. Finally, it means that Einstein's Theory of Relat ivity is also purely imaginary, since it is based on the contraction principle.

The real reason for the effect of the Michelson-Morely experiment was much simpler and much more perceivable than the explanation offered by the Lorentz-Fitzgerald Contraction.

This effect was obtained because light travels during the stops of the earth, and not during the steps or instantaneous displacements, for there is no time in which to travel in instantaneity. The effect was then produced because, relatively to light, the earth is always standing still.

The ether that Michelson and Morely were trying to discover really does exist, but not in the way it had been imagined. This ether is not an inert gaseous substance, but the very energy photons that permeate all cosmic space. Far from being inert, they ar e the source of all power and the cause of all displacements. They do not slip past the earth, but a huge concentration of them form the magnetic field of the earth and of all magnetic bodies. They also form the gravitational field of all cosmic bodies. N o such body can slip by its own magnetic or gravitational field.

The Contradiction of Our Logical Mathematics by Our Sensory Perception

We logically assume that space is in fact subdivided ad infinitum, in that between any two points in space there is really an infinity of points. This assumption is derived from the faulty logic of our mathematics which presume that between any two number s there is really, or objectively, an infinity of numbers.

To be objective a number must represent a real object. No one has ever perceived an infinity of objects anywhere, and especially not in a finite unit of space. Never have we detected an infinity of matter or of energy particles, or an infinity of waves, i n a definite length of space. What is it then that gives us reason to presume that the reality of Nature must necessarily subscibe to the dictates of our imagination? Even our imagination does not really transcend the finite; it only starts an enumeration procedure that it then presumes, against all practical experience, that it can pursue ad infinitum. It confuses the infinite with the indefinite!

Our imagination is a physcial action that requires energy, and this energy exists in quanta and is therefore finite.

The Sensory Contradiction of the Space-Time Continuum

We imaginatively assume that in any spatial displacement a point in space must correspond to an instant in time, so that an infinity of points are traversed in an infinity of instants, each point corresponding to one instant. We are then faced with two contradictions of this logic by our sensory experience:

Both infinities are enclosed within finite limitations. The finite then transcends the infinite!
There are perceivable variations of velocities, so that in the lower velocities the instants must be longer than in the higher velocities, or else each instant does not correspond to each point. How then are we to define long instants, and account fo r an infinity of such instants in a finite duration? Where is intelligibility in this?

The Contradiction of the Continuity of Motion by Planck's Quantum Theory of Energy

The Planck's constant of energy is empirically measureable and therefore real and definite, while continuity is unperceivable and indefinite. If motion is continuous, then we must illogically support the view that a definite quantum of energy can produce an indefinite quantity of motion; that is, more or less motion for a given object. This would be the very contradiction of Planck's method of determining the value of his constant.

Boisvert's Paradox of Life and Death

As far as we know, Wilfrid Boisvert is the originator of this paradox.

Problem:

When do we die? In the past, the present, or the future?

Not in the past, as we are still living in the present.

Not in the present, as we are still living in the present. No one can be both dead and living at the same time.

Not in the future, as the future has yet to come.

Solution:
The present has a 1/64,000 of a second duration. After each such period, we make an instantaneous leap into the next period. There can be no motion and therefore no change during any of these periods.

To die is to fail to make this instantaneous atomic leap into the next such period. We therefore die precisely between the present and the future.

If quantum mechanics had been understood in the past, no paradoxes of motion would ever have surfaced.

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Boisvert's Discovery of the Discontinuity of Motion© by Wilfrid Boisvert;
Presented for the Web by Gordon Smith and Adrien Boisvert.
Copyright 1996: Gordon Smith. E:mail enquiries, questions, criticism to: gds islandnet.com --------------3E1316756B9D-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 11:57:00 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA18203; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 11:55:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 11:55:07 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991107145442.0069c1fc pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 14:54:42 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Dennis Lee in USA Today online Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"x6RB9.0.LS4.RaT9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31490 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dennis Lee is quoted in a USA Today on-line article http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/review/crg549.htm: "We will prove tonight that you can run a car on water -- regular tap water. If you can burn hydrogen and you can burn oxygen, why can't you burn water?" What an idiot! His audiences must be made up of grade school dropouts. You would think someone would stand up and say: "'cause its already burned!!!" There are lots of other outrageous quotes in this article, short as it is. It's enough to make you throw up. Perhaps I.E. should ask permission to reprint it, just to show how awful these people can be. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 11:59:22 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA18183; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 11:55:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 11:55:07 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991107145315.0068bafc pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 14:53:15 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Radiation Sickness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"nrXrp.0.1S4.QaT9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31489 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Logajan wrote: >In this day and age there is plenty of capital available for even the >largest project if there is a remote chance of a positive return on >investment. I do not think so. There is always capital for safe, conventional projects, but not for anything out of the ordinary. A famous example was the transcontinental railroad, which went begging for funds for 10 or 15 years at the height of the biggest railroad boom in history. It was only built when Lincoln pushed it though and Congress guaranteed massive government subsidies and land grants. It was built as part of the war effort, like the interstate highway system 90 years later. (Interstate ring highways around major cities were designed to allow troop movements after nuclear attacks.) In these massive projects, taxpayers took on the risk, the capitalists took the profits. >Solar, wind, and geothermal simply don't offer a ROI, and it has >nothing to do with businessmen's decisions According to EPRI and the New York Times, wind power electricity is the fastest growing source of energy, and in many locations it is the cheapest. Cheaper even than gas or oil. For several years in the '80s wind power was subsidized in California. Many conservatives criticized this, saying it led to inefficiencies. However, these "wind farms" were used to field test and develop new technology, which improved rapidly, and today wind is extremely reliable and cost effective. The conservatives forgot that most major technology have received a boost from the government, either tax cuts or direct subsidies. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 12:31:12 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA24379; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 12:28:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 12:28:32 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Radiation Sickness Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:37:07 -0500 Message-ID: <19991107203707734.AAA230 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"fluKL.0.ry5.m3U9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31491 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: >According to EPRI and the New York Times, wind power electricity is the >fastest growing source of energy, and in many locations it is the cheapest. >Cheaper even than gas or oil. For several years in the '80s wind power was >subsidized in California. Many conservatives criticized this, saying it led >to inefficiencies. However, these "wind farms" were used to field test and >develop new technology, which improved rapidly, and today wind is extremely >reliable and cost effective. The conservatives forgot that most major >technology have received a boost from the government, either tax cuts or >direct subsidies. > >- Jed Jimmy Carter had a soft spot for solar, and gave homeowners, I think a $1000 or $1500 tax cut for any solar energy device. My Dad took the opportunity to put a very simple, 6' x 8' passive solar collector on the side of his house in Indiana. It looked pretty cool, and the actual cost of materials in today's dollars was less than a couple of hundred bucks. He had room for more of them on the North side, I believe, but never bothered to install more The thing would crank out free heat in the winter in surprising quantities with no maintenance or any kind of messing with it. He did some comparisons on his heating bills from previous years, nothing rigorous measurementwise, but he figured that it paid for itself almost as soon as he installed it due to the tax cut, and reduced his heating bill by around 35%. He used it for 10 years before selling the house, and never had a dime's worth of problem with it. That's what I call free, safe energy. No muss - no fuss. Of course, as soon as Reagan was elected, that tax cut for homeowners was eliminated immediately in favor of tax cuts to oil and logging companies under Secretary of the Interior James Watt. The defense industry just went completely wild, too, stealing money from almost every other program. We are long overdue for a major change in policy regarding the favoritism displayed to these megacorporations over the citizenry. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 12:35:08 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26611; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 12:33:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 12:33:44 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: U.S. Consumer Gateway Home Page Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:42:18 -0500 Message-ID: <19991107204218531.AAA253 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"XIKx4.0.fV6.d8U9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31492 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred wrote: >Great site for info on fuel economy for that gas guzzler. > >That ~8 tons/year pollution is indicates switching to a bike would be >a good idea. :-) > > http://www.consumer.gov/ Yeah, I looked at that site. It's nice, and interesting to compare to the Nader site to see what they have in common, and what they don't, in determining what constitutes a consumer problem. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 14:11:58 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA17267; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:09:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:09:33 -0800 Message-ID: <001501bf2975$23236d60$528e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <19991107203707734.AAA230 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: Radiation Sickness Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:08:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"xqbJd2.0.jD4.SYV9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31493 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Sunday, November 07, 1999 12:37 PM Subject: Re: Radiation Sickness Knuke wrote: > > Jimmy Carter had a soft spot for solar, and gave homeowners, I think a $1000 > or $1500 tax cut for any solar energy device. My Dad took the opportunity > to put a very simple, 6' x 8' passive solar collector on the side of his > house in Indiana. It looked pretty cool, and the actual cost of materials > in today's dollars was less than a couple of hundred bucks. He had room for > more of them on the North side, I believe, but never bothered to install > more The thing would crank out free heat in the winter in surprising > quantities with no maintenance or any kind of messing with it. There were lots of those roof-mount passive solar collectors installed here in the Southwest, but many were way overpriced by the Crooks that were selling them. Most of the new construction homes now have south-facing passive solar "sunrooms" built in. The new four-unit (2,400 square ft each, all-steel framing with brick veneer, and 10 ft ceilings) apartment house next door to my once country home, has these passive collector rooms on each unit. Lots of free btus there. The complex priced out at about $60.00/ft^2 not counting the cost of bringing in city water and sewer. At $825.00/Month rental (plus utilities)on each unit you need some free energy. :-) Regards, Frederick > > Knuke > > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 14:31:35 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA01856; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:28:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:28:42 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <001701bf296f$7340d2c0$0101a8c0 john> From: "John Logajan" To: References: <3.0.1.32.19991107145315.0068bafc pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Radiation Sickness Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 16:28:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"1b-9a3.0.qS.PqV9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31494 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > >In this day and age there is plenty of capital available for even the > >largest project if there is a remote chance of a positive return on > >investment. > > I do not think so. There is always capital for safe, conventional projects, > but not for anything out of the ordinary. I don't think we'll get very far with that definitionalism. You will simply proclaim internet stocks, for example, to be "ordinary." > In these massive projects, taxpayers took on the risk, the capitalists took > the profits. That's the model you are endorsing, not me. > >Solar, wind, and geothermal simply don't offer a ROI, and it has > >nothing to do with businessmen's decisions > > According to EPRI and the New York Times, wind power electricity is the > fastest growing source of energy A newly impregnated egg cell is the fastest growing human too. That doesn't mean it is particularly big, nor that it will ever become as big as an adult. At least with an egg we know it tends toward adulthood. On the otherhand we know that wind farms generate so much noise that no one can live near them. So much for "decentralized" power. > For several years in the '80s wind power was > subsidized in California. Many conservatives criticized this, saying it led > to inefficiencies. However, these "wind farms" were used to field test and > develop new technology, which improved rapidly, and today wind is extremely > reliable and cost effective. The conservatives forgot that most major > technology have received a boost from the government, either tax cuts or > direct subsidies. I can't defend conservatives because I am not one. But while it is true that coercion often delivers convenient solutions, as a Libertarian opposed to the initation of coercion, I am compelled to seek only voluntary interactions and to oppose initiating the use of force or threatening to initiate the use of force in order to arrive at my desired ends faster or cheaper. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan yahoo.com -- 651-633-8918 - - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - I don't endorse any commercial messages that may appear below. - __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 14:43:32 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA09124; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:41:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:41:03 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991106111348.009d6330 mail.eden.com> References: Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 16:36:52 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: fields...or not Resent-Message-ID: <"6IxAN1.0.SE2.__V9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31496 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >At 11:01 AM 11/6/99 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{I think you should keep it simple. If your probes are out along the >>axis of a dipole, the RF emissions will be minimized, and when the excess >>electrons move away from the nearby pole, there will be no ambiguity about >>the movement. > >OK, fine. I agree that this geometry will be cleaner. > >>As to why no physical field can be mathematically continuous in space, the >>answer is that such a notion would imply that the forces exerted by the >>field are not delivered by particles, which would imply that the work done >>by those forces is not done by entities, which in turn would mean that the >>energy involved simply leaps into existence out of nothing.... > >Why do you say the energy involved has to leap into existence out of >nothing? ***{If an electron is deflected from its course at a specific point in space, work is done at that location. The question is, by what entity is the work done? With what object did the electron collide, which caused it to divert from its course? If you say "the field," that is non-responsive, because the question was about the event that occured in a tiny region of space, and "the field" occupies a vast region. Since the event of interest was of a localized nature, a generalized answer is insufficient. Perhaps an analogy will make the point clear. If you say "A bug hit my car," and I say, "What, specifically, did he hit?" it would be non-responsive of you to reply, "He hit my car." The intent of the question was, "What part of your car did the bug hit?" Responsive answers would be, "He hit the left front headlight," or "He hit the windshield," etc. Similarly, if you say, "The electron was deflected by the magnetic field," and I say, "What, specifically, did it hit?" the intent of the question would be to determine what part of the field--*what entity*-- struck the electron or was struck by it. Thus it would be non-responsive of you to reply, "It hit the magnetic field." A responsive answer would be,"The electron hit a line of flux and was deflected by it." Unfortunately, the mindset of "modern" physics does not permit such answers, and--correct me if I am wrong--you would never say such a thing. Instead, you would deny that any such linear structure--any entity having mass and form and composed of internal parts--exists at that location. In effect, you would be saying that the energy involved leaps into existence out of nothing, because either there is some entity present at the specific location where the electron was deflected, to cause the deflection, or else there isn't anything there. If you say nothing was there, you in effect claim that the energy necessary to deflect the electron leaped into existence out of nothing. --Mitchell Jones}*** >It's perfectly consistent to say the field itself has energy and that, when >it does work on a particle, the field energy decreases accordingly. ***{Yes, but it is non-responsive, if I ask you what the electron struck at a specific location within the field, to say that it struck "the field." You have to either respond by attempting to discuss the part of the field which the electron struck at that location, or else by denying that the field has a discrete part at that location. If you do the former, you abandon the notion that the field is mathematically continuous, and if you do the latter, you endorse the view that the energy leaped into existence out of nothing. --MJ}*** > > >Scott Little >EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 >512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) >little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 14:43:34 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA09110; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:41:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:41:03 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 11:20:56 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Unreadable Messages Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA09080 Resent-Message-ID: <"Yb_yU3.0.DE2.-_V9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31495 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I received the following message via e-mail this morning. On my computer (a Macintosh), this looks like a mixture of Cyrillic, Greek, and perhaps Arabic characters, with some mathematical symbols thrown in for good measure. I have no idea what it says. Is there some trick I can use to convert this stuff into a readable message? (I have been getting a lot of this stuff lately.) --Mitchell Jones ********************** ج�"�~�ϧ��*Xؾ ********************** �M��A��"*��ϧ��ߩ"ؾ�H�C *x*_�U�*؉�"*��ϧ��*۰A�A�X�U��"�~��D�I�I ߎ��Z�q��̓T�B��жh*��Y�n*Xؾ��ϧ��A*��*�𵤱z��D�԰A � �w�n��zߔ�ϧ@�B��A�X�z�;{�z�ؼ��"��"�I�I�I�I ��ϰG �j�w�� p �G��n�B*_��ج�ϰA80�w500�W�I�I �Q�s�� p �G�n� �F�� T�B*|�qج�� 50�w250�W �I�I �H�q�� p �G�ڏ��٧G�q�A�H�q�٧T�qج�ϰA��c��j�"�C 30-280�W�I�I ��s�� p �G��w�F�ٰA��s*_��ج�� 70�w200�W �I�I �n��B��ڰB��Ӽq��n�ȧu�~�ȃ��I�I �A�� A�~�˴O�"�C�w�Ԩ��. ��T�� "*ڄ� �p��H�G��p�j TeL�]*N�̽��^�G 02-25705975 �z��N�A�Oߎ�Á��N�C From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 14:48:09 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA11923; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:45:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:45:55 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <001f01bf2971$dd4086a0$0101a8c0 john> From: "John Logajan" To: References: <19991107203707734.AAA230 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: Radiation Sickness Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 16:46:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"erH9u.0.Cw2.Y4W9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31497 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael T Huffman wrote: > He used it for 10 years before selling the house, and never had > a dime's worth of problem with it. Sounds like he didn't install another one thereafter. Not much of a return customer endorsement there. > as soon as Reagan was elected, that tax cut for homeowners was > eliminated Now I don't advocate taxation, so calling a tax cut a "subsidy" is to me an improper use of the term -- nevertheless adopting your big government terminology, you are saying that solar power needs subsidies to be cost competitive. That's what I've been saying. > The defense industry just went completely wild, too, stealing > money from almost every other program. For once we agree -- taxation is stealing. But it wasn't the defense industry stealing anything, it was the government stealing money from the taxpayer. When a purse snatcher spends his loot at the local hamburger joint, it would be nonsense to accuse the hamburger joint of stealing. The hamburger joint delivered a dollars worth of goods for a dollar exchanged in a voluntary interaction. Similarly, if two crooks steal some loot and one of the crooks double crosses the other and runs off with all the money, we would be foolish to accuse the first crook of "stealing" from the second. Therefore your sentence is a contradiction in several ways. The "industry" stole from no one -- and "other programs", i.e. "other crooks" couldn't steal from each other things that weren't rightfully theirs in the first place. Seems to me, Reagan was following your model -- steal from the taxpayer to fund things you think are important. I don't see a moral difference between you and Reagan except the nature of the toys you wish to spend your ill gotten loot on. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan yahoo.com -- 651-633-8918 - - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - I don't endorse any commercial messages that may appear below. - __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 14:58:46 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA16938; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:56:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:56:39 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Unreadable Messages Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 18:05:06 -0500 Message-ID: <19991107230506718.AAA242 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA16914 Resent-Message-ID: <"_XJbY1.0.W84.dEW9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31498 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't know what this looks like to you, but to me it is all plain vanilla extended character (over 128) ASCII garbage. No Cyrillic, some Roman, German, Math symbols, etc. I had a problem with my browser font settings getting tweaked a couple of months ago, and even some of my webpages looked like this. If your mail program is part of Netscape, check the font setting for the fixed width, non-truetype font. Otherwise, I would contact the sender, and ask them to give you a call on the phone. Knuke >I received the following message via e-mail this morning. On my computer (a >Macintosh), this looks like a mixture of Cyrillic, Greek, and perhaps >Arabic characters, with some mathematical symbols thrown in for good >measure. I have no idea what it says. Is there some trick I can use to >convert this stuff into a readable message? (I have been getting a lot of >this stuff lately.) --Mitchell Jones > > > ********************** > ج�"�~�ϧ��*Xؾ > ********************** > > �M��A��"*��ϧ��ߩ"ؾ�H�C > > *x*_�U�*؉�"*��ϧ��*۰A�A�X�U��"�~��D�I�I > > ߎ��Z�q��̓T�B��жh*��Y�n*Xؾ��ϧ��A*��*�𵤱z��D�԰A > > � �w�n��zߔ�ϧ@�B��A�X�z�;{�z�ؼ��"��"�I�I�I�I > > ��ϰG > �j�w�� p �G��n�B*_��ج�ϰA80�w500�W�I�I > �Q�s�� p �G�n� �F�� T�B*|�qج�� 50�w250�W �I�I > �H�q�� p �G�ڏ��٧G�q�A�H�q�٧T�qج�ϰA��c��j�"�C 30-280�W�I�I > ��s�� p �G��w�F�ٰA��s*_��ج�� 70�w200�W �I�I > > �n��B��ڰB��Ӽq��n�ȧu�~�ȃ��I�I > > > �A�� A�~�˴O�"�C�w�Ԩ��. > > > ��T�� "*ڄ� > �p��H�G��p�j > TeL�]*N�̽��^�G 02-25705975 > > �z��N�A�Oߎ�Á��N�C > > Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 15:51:50 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA28269; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:49:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:49:55 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991107174906.009dc220 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 17:49:06 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: fields...or not In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19991106111348.009d6330 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"CMyG73.0.dv6.Y0X9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31499 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 04:36 PM 11/7/99 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >You have to either respond by attempting to discuss the part of the field >which the electron struck at that location, or else by denying that the >field has a discrete part at that location. If you do the former, you >abandon the notion that the field is mathematically continuous, and if you >do the latter, you endorse the view that the energy leaped into existence >out of nothing. --MJ}*** I disagree. The field is continuous throughout space AND has an intrinsic energy which was supplied when the field was created. The electron doesn't hit anything but rather interacts smoothly with the field. If work is done on the electron by the field, the field's energy decreases accordingly. Energy does not "leap into existence out of nothing". Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 16:48:22 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA09715; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 16:47:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 16:47:13 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Radiation Sickness Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 19:55:48 -0500 Message-ID: <19991108005548796.AAA253 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"gZXOC2.0.hN2.HsX9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31500 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred wrote: >There were lots of those roof-mount passive solar collectors installed here >in >the Southwest, but many were way overpriced by the Crooks that were selling >them. Yeah, it was cheap for my Dad, but not for everybody. The outfit that was making these things was charging $3,000 list. My Dad was living in a model home in a new suburb that was fairly well furnished, and the outfit knocked off $1,500 if my Dad would allow other people (potential customers, by appointment) to look at it. He said sure, and they brought around, I think, 5 couples total, so it wasn't any great inconvience. He had to wait till tax time to get his tax cut, but in essense, with the tax incentive, it was a freebie for him. The cost of materials was low, the actual installation was easier than say, a cable or satellite TV installation, it required the same kind or even less expensive tools, and even less in the way of technical expertise. The outfit made out like bandits really, on all the other people. I'm just guessing, but there were probably around 50 million homes that could have taken advantage of this opportunity at that time, maybe less. If every homeowner had taken advantage of this tax cut, the total one-time cost to the taxpayers would have been *at most* $75 billion. Of course, the number of people that actually took advantage of this program was far, far less. I don't have any numbers, but just by looking at the total number of houses that I've seen since that time with this kind of upgrade (0), I would estimate that the tax cut lowered Federal revenues by less than $1 billion. Compare that figure with the multi-trillion dollar cost to the taxpayer for the nuclear energy program alone, and I really don't mind giving the money to the solar energy "Crooks". :) > >Most of the new construction homes now have south-facing passive solar >"sunrooms" built in. Yeah, I've seen that on some of the more intelligently built new constructs. It's not the norm however, in the Northwest or here in the South. The kind of unit that I described above is for existing homes, so it's not even like it has to be designed into the architecture. I also don't know anyone that uses this sort of thing for heating water, for example, either, which would be another dead-easy, no-brainer, dirt-cheap, mass production application that would cut our world's fuel consumption by a significant amount - today. This would be good year-round, and not just in the winter months. Then there is solar lighting, actual solar electricity panels, solar generation of hydrogen, and on and on. The cost for all these things would go way down if they were fully funded, mass produced, and encouraged or allowed to flourish. >At $825.00/Month rental (plus utilities)on each unit you need some free >energy. :-) With a minumum wage at $5.15 or whatever, per hour, I would need a lot more than free energy, Fred. Right now, around 14% of the US population live *below* the poverty line according to the US Labor Department. That figure is based on the number of people that officially exist. I've known many people that no longer officially exist in this country. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 17:57:55 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27836; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 17:56:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 17:56:52 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Neutrino-AntiNeutrino Pair Production Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 12:56:47 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <012c01bf294d$f3aec100$d4441d26 fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <012c01bf294d$f3aec100$d4441d26 fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA27809 Resent-Message-ID: <"lWTyx1.0.ro6.atY9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31501 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 7 Nov 1999 10:27:53 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: [snip] >IOW, certain photons at a resonance peak can become circularized in >a hydrogen orbit and become Neutrinos and/or AntiNeutrinos and with >participation of an electron, form Quasi-Neutrons or what Mills calls >"Fractional Orbit" Hydrinos. Come on now Frederick, you know that is not what Mills calls a Hydrino, it's what you call a Hydrino. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 18:46:27 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA07694; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 18:44:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 18:44:46 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Radiation Sickness Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 21:53:21 -0500 Message-ID: <19991108025321109.AAA240 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"ARg0t.0.4u1.UaZ9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31502 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John L. writes: >Sounds like he didn't install another one thereafter. Not much >of a return customer endorsement there. Not at all, John. The fact was, he really didn't need another one. Like I explained to Fred, the reason my Dad got it so cheap was not entirely due to the tax cut, but also due to a promotional deal. He would have had to pay the full $3,000 for the next one, and it just wasn't worth it. The house was all-electric, he showed me his electric bills, and they were right at $30 a month during the wintertime in an area that did not have cheap electricity. It was nuclear energy actually, from the aging Flint facility, so you can imagine. We're talking Northern Indiana - close to Chicago, too. Not exactly a sunbelt in the winter. More like 0 degrees at times with a wind-chill putting it at 30 below or lower. Killer Cold. There were other factors involved that further reduced his energy consumption like the construction of the house itself. It was made of 2x6 studs with full insulation, and a plastic sheeting just over the studs inside and out. He also later installed a hollow-tube grating system that he picked up pretty cheap into the fireplace that blew the warm air from the fireplace into the main room of the house instead of having the majority of the heat go up the chimney. While I'm not particularly fond of burning wood, he got the wood for free from a local guy that had a large undeveloped parcel of land with some fallen trees in it. This guy would let anybody who wanted to cut their own wood and haul it out of there, do it just to get the fallen trees removed. The house had all the modern appliances that money could buy, too, including a convection oven, microwave, built-in vacuum cleaning system, etc.. This wasn't a small house either, it had 4 bedrooms in the upstairs, 3 baths total, living room, dining room, kitchen, full basement that he finished off himself, laundry room, and a large main family room. It was the nicest place they ever had. $30 a month for electricity was phenomenally cheap for all that. My Dad wasn't going to stop there, either. :) He had picked up some info on a methane composter/generator system that was only $1,500 that ran off of lawn clippings, etc.. He reckoned he could cut his electricity bill to zero, and possibly even feed some juice back into the grid. My Mom didn't think the neighbors would appreciate a methane composter in the backyard, so she quashed the idea. My Dad was such a character back then - still is to a large degree. I love that guy. >Now I don't advocate taxation, so calling a tax cut a "subsidy" is >to me an improper use of the term -- nevertheless adopting your >big government terminology, you are saying that solar power needs >subsidies to be cost competitive. Actually, what I'm saying is that if solar power devices similar to this were mass manufactured and installed by honest, fair people, the one-time initial cost would be quite low, and the energy they produced would pay for them in a short period of time. After that, there would be very little expense or no expense at all. Free energy. These technologies only need government assistance and protection in a business environment where the wealthy and unscrupulous are allowed to crush more progressive and sensible technologies to protect their income stream. We disagree about the taxation, too, but that is something that, I don't think we will ever resolve between us. >I don't see a moral difference between you and Reagan >except the nature of the toys you wish to spend your >ill gotten loot on. I know, and I'm sorry about that. You've been reading my posts now for what, almost 6 years, now? Surely, you must know by now what I'm about. Trying to draw lines from me to Pol Pot, the Unabomber, and others like that is just not fair. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 19:13:06 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA14549; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 19:10:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 19:10:29 -0800 Message-ID: <005a01bf299f$319a5500$528e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <012c01bf294d$f3aec100$d4441d26 fjsparber> Subject: Re: Neutrino-AntiNeutrino Pair Production Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 20:10:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"byOsJ3.0.uY3.ayZ9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31503 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Sunday, November 07, 1999 5:56 PM Subject: Re: Neutrino-AntiNeutrino Pair Production Robin wrote: > On Sun, 7 Nov 1999 10:27:53 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote: > [snip] > >IOW, certain photons at a resonance peak can become circularized in > >a hydrogen orbit and become Neutrinos and/or AntiNeutrinos and with > >participation of an electron, form Quasi-Neutrons or what Mills calls > >"Fractional Orbit" Hydrinos. > > Come on now Frederick, you know that is not what Mills calls a Hydrino, it's > what you call a Hydrino. You know it, and I know it, but, does he know it? :-) Best, Frederick > [snip] > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 20:36:06 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA31580; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 20:35:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 20:35:02 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <003601bf29a2$a3bee260$0101a8c0 john> From: "John Logajan" To: References: <19991108025321109.AAA240 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: Radiation Sickness Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 22:35:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"mBGT-.0.Hj7.sBb9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31504 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael T Huffman wrote: > >I don't see a moral difference between you and Reagan > >except the nature of the toys you wish to spend your > >ill gotten loot on. > > I know, and I'm sorry about that. You've been reading my posts now for > what, almost 6 years, now? Surely, you must know by now what I'm about. > Trying to draw lines from me to Pol Pot, the Unabomber, and others like that > is just not fair. Let me get this straight -- you think it is fair to accuse all energy producers of being evil conspirators who would directly or indirectly kill millions to further amass great fortunes, and you think it is fair to demand that the government arrest them, seize their assets and halt their production facilities -- but you get all misty eyed when someone points out this would put you in the league with other "greenies" in history who have also used brute force to attempt to enact their visions? Is that an incorrect assessment? -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan yahoo.com -- 651-633-8918 - - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - I don't endorse any commercial messages that may appear below. - __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 21:21:04 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA09027; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 21:19:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 21:19:35 -0800 Message-ID: <01BF2965.DCDE5FE0 istf-1-9.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Unreadable Messages Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 21:19:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BF2965.DCDE5FE0" Resent-Message-ID: <"y64rj2.0.zC2.drb9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31505 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF2965.DCDE5FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It definitely looks like an encoding/decoding problem. A little context = might be helpful in diagnosis. Some clues: was the entire message like = that, or just an attachment? Do all messages from the same sender come = out that way, and if so have they always done so? I did a little ascii decoding, and wasn't able to see anything simple = like an added high-order bit. It's interesting that all of the spaces = and carriage returns came through o.k; perhaps there was an odd font or = character set selected on the sender's end that didn't translate = correctly. 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If you do the former, you >>abandon the notion that the field is mathematically continuous, and if you >>do the latter, you endorse the view that the energy leaped into existence >>out of nothing. --MJ}*** > >I disagree. The field is continuous throughout space AND has an intrinsic >energy which was supplied when the field was created. The electron doesn't >hit anything but rather interacts smoothly with the field. ***{The claim that entities can change their states of motion without hitting anything or being hit by anything boils down to a claim that energy can leap into existence out of nothing, in violation of the principle of continuity, and has the same consequences: the immediate collapse of the entire structure of human knowledge. For example, when you think you see Dr. Puthoff, maybe you are mistaken. Maybe those photons which you have been assuming bounce off of him, pass into your eye, and cause neurons to fire in your retina, do not exist. Maybe the neurons fire *without being hit by anything*. If so, then you have no basis for thinking that Dr. Puthoff exists, or has ever existed. And, by the same reasoning, perhaps the external world, your body, your memories, and the various faculties of your mind do not exist! Maybe the various sensations which you have been assuming you receive from those locations all result from neurons firing without being hit by anything! Bottom line: if the state of motion of an entity could change without its hitting anything or being hit by anything, then we would lose all basis for believing that "things" exist or have ever existed, and the entire structure of human knowledge would instantly collapse. --Mitchell Jones}*** If work is done >on the electron by the field, the field's energy decreases accordingly. >Energy does not "leap into existence out of nothing". ***{You can't deal with this argument by avoiding the use of certain words, Scott. It's like a tyrannosaurus in your living room: avoiding the word "tyrannosaurus" will not prevent it from gobbling you up. :-) --MJ*** > >Scott Little >EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 >512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) >little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 22:33:58 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA31232; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 22:31:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 22:31:58 -0800 Message-ID: <017e01bf29b3$57a9e4e0$33684fc6 mrand> From: "mrand" To: Subject: Re: Discontinuity of motion experiment Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 22:34:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"E1JX51.0.wd7.Tvc9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31507 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jim, >>> >The discussion of the "principle" of discontinuity (of atomic motion) >having to do with >the above experiment can be found at: > >http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Setup1.html#Setup No. 1 Interesting experiment. "Everything constituted of atoms in the universe stops for a duration of exactly 1/64,000 of a second." Best Regards, Michael Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 22:39:36 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA02098; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 22:38:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 22:38:51 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991108003810.009e9100 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 00:38:10 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: fields...or not In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19991107174906.009dc220 mail.eden.com> <3.0.5.32.19991106111348.009d6330 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"YcSxq.0.eW.w_c9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31508 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A At 12:01 AM 11/8/99 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: >***{The claim that entities can change their states of motion without >hitting anything or being hit by anything boils down to a claim that energy >can leap into existence out of nothing, in violation of the principle of >continuity, and has the same consequences: the immediate collapse of the >entire structure of human knowledge. Now we're both just repeating our respective positions. It's obvious that neither of us is going to budge on this issue. Let's end this discussion. Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Nov 7 23:00:43 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA07673; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 22:59:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 22:59:57 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Radiation Sickness Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 02:08:33 -0500 Message-ID: <19991108070833093.AAA160 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"6LCP_.0.nt1.jJd9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31509 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John L writes: >Let me get this straight -- you think it is fair to accuse all >energy producers of being evil conspirators who would directly >or indirectly kill millions to further amass great fortunes, and >you think it is fair to demand that the government arrest them, >seize their assets and halt their production facilities In light of the overwhelming evidence of the actual facts, yes, I think that, as a matter of survival, a person has the right to demand that government halt the activities of any group that is killing people simply for sake of a profit. Society doesn't allow that sort of thing. I don't make any apologies about that. I don't want to be killed by these people. I don't want you, or anyone else to be killed by these people. They are, of course, entitled to due process of law. I also think that the individuals within the corporations who actually make the decision consciously to pollute the water, ground, and air in violation of the few remaining environmental laws should be personally held accountable to society, just like any other criminal. I'm also against the ownership of humans, the abusive use of child labor, and the unequal hiring and treatment of workers based on race, sex, sexual orientation, age, religious belief or physical handicaps. Anything else you need to get straight? -- but you >get all misty eyed when someone points out this would put you >in the league with other "greenies" in history who have also >used brute force to attempt to enact their visions? > >Is that an incorrect assessment? I didn't realize I was being misty-eyed. :) I'm also not aware of any "greenies" that have ever used brute force to enact their visions. I'm not really even sure by what you mean when you use the term "greenies". I'm assuming for the moment that you mean environmentalists, and that you are vilifying them, but I could be wrong. Are you saying that Pol Pot and the Unabomber were representative or in any way a part of the environmentalist or consumer protection movements? Perhaps you could provide us with a good definition, and some concrete examples in history of what you mean. Just some URLS would do, I don't want to take up too much of your time. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 03:15:32 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA14153; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 03:14:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 03:14:43 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Dennis Lee in USA Today online Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 06:23:19 -0500 Message-ID: <19991108112319312.AAA204 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"I6Sab3.0.3T3.Y2h9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31510 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Dennis Lee is quoted in a USA Today on-line article > >http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/review/crg549.htm: > >"We will prove tonight that you can run a car on water -- regular tap >water. If you can burn hydrogen and you can burn oxygen, why can't you burn >water?" > >What an idiot! His audiences must be made up of grade school dropouts. You >would think someone would stand up and say: "'cause its already burned!!!" Technically Jed, you can burn water and get H2O2, I think, but I never took Chemistry, so you'll have to ask Fred just to make sure. :) Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 05:26:48 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA30232; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 05:26:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 05:26:00 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991108082550.007a1550 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 08:25:50 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Radiation Sickness In-Reply-To: <001701bf296f$7340d2c0$0101a8c0 john> References: <3.0.1.32.19991107145315.0068bafc pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"fY0l83.0.IO7.ezi9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31511 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Logajan wrote: >> I do not think so. There is always capital for safe, conventional >projects, >> but not for anything out of the ordinary. > >I don't think we'll get very far with that definitionalism. You will simply >proclaim internet stocks, for example, to be "ordinary." Internet stocks are a new form of marketing, not technology. Companies like Amazon.com have little to do with technology. They are only risky because they are overrated. On the technical side there are some companies involved in enhanced digital transmission on the Internet, and the phone companies and delivery services are doing well, but they are not what people think of as Internet stocks, and they are conventional, safe investments. >> In these massive projects, taxpayers took on the risk, the capitalists >took >> the profits. > >That's the model you are endorsing, not me. I am reporting it, not endorsing it. That is the way the world works, and the way it always has worked. I do not expect things will change anytime soon, so I think we should make the most of the present system. >> According to EPRI and the New York Times, wind power electricity is the >> fastest growing source of energy > >A newly impregnated egg cell is the fastest growing human too. That >doesn't mean it is particularly big, nor that it will ever become as big >as an adult. Wind power is a significant percent of world energy. It is roughly 1% in California, but that is only a fraction of the total nowadays. It is growing most quickly in Europe and in the mid-west. Installed capacity is over 10,000 MW. See http://www.worldwatch.org/alerts/981229a.html. At this rate I think in 5 to 10 years it will overtake nuclear fission. >On the otherhand we know that wind farms generate so much noise >that no one can live near them. So much for "decentralized" power. Not any more they don't. The first generation ones with small, rapidly turning blades were noisy, but the more recent models are larger, slower and much quieter. Noise equals inefficiency. The efficiency curve of wind turbines has been climbing rapidly. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 05:59:56 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA06704; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 05:58:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 05:58:54 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991108003810.009e9100 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19991107174906.009dc220 mail.eden.com> <3.0.5.32.19991106111348.009d6330 mail.eden.com> Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 07:56:32 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: fields...or not Resent-Message-ID: <"zormV1.0.ge1.USj9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31513 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >At 12:01 AM 11/8/99 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > >>***{The claim that entities can change their states of motion without >>hitting anything or being hit by anything boils down to a claim that energy >>can leap into existence out of nothing, in violation of the principle of >>continuity, and has the same consequences: the immediate collapse of the >>entire structure of human knowledge. > >Now we're both just repeating our respective positions. ***{For the record, I have not been "just repeating" my position." You wanted to avoid admitting that the energy (delivered to an electron by a "continuous" magnetic field) leaped into existence out of nothing, and instead substituted a claim that "the electron doesn't hit anything." I then argued that the latter choice of words leads into the same intellectual trap as the former--to wit: the collapse of the entire structure of human knowledge. The point: either we can know nothing whatever, or else the notion that mathematically continuous physical fields can exist is wrong. And, of course, if it is wrong, then the intellectual underpinnings of most of "modern" physics stand revealed to be utter nonsense. --MJ}*** It's obvious that >neither of us is going to budge on this issue. Let's end this discussion. ***{A discussion with one participant isn't much of a discussion, now is it? :-) --MJ}*** > > >Scott Little >EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 >512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) >little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 06:01:07 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA07457; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 05:59:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 05:59:53 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991108084804.007be9d0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 08:48:04 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Dennis Lee in USA Today online In-Reply-To: <19991108112319312.AAA204 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"mbfAz2.0.Mq1.PTj9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31514 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:23 AM 11/8/99 -0500, Michael T Huffman wrote: >>Dennis Lee is quoted in a USA Today on-line article >> >>http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/review/crg549.htm: >> >>"We will prove tonight that you can run a car on water -- regular tap >>water. If you can burn hydrogen and you can burn oxygen, why can't you burn >>water?" >> >>What an idiot! His audiences must be made up of grade school dropouts. You >>would think someone would stand up and say: "'cause its already burned!!!" > >Technically Jed, you can burn water and get H2O2, I think, but I never took >Chemistry, so you'll have to ask Fred just to make sure. :) > >Knuke >Michael T. Huffman H2O2 is an intermediary on the way to forming water. Single electron transfer to molecular oxygen -- IF it is in an electronically excited state -- gives superoxide free radical (O2-. ), two electron transfer to oxygen gives H2O2, and four electron transfer to oxygen gives H2O Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 06:04:35 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA09571; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 06:03:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 06:03:52 -0800 Message-ID: <009101bf29fa$79c3c860$528e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <19991108112319312.AAA204 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: Dennis Lee in USA Today online Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 07:03:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"pC-uI2.0.SL2.8Xj9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31515 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 3:23 AM Subject: Re: Dennis Lee in USA Today online Knuke wrote: > > Technically Jed, you can burn water and get H2O2, I think, but I never took > Chemistry, so you'll have to ask Fred just to make sure. :) Nope. 2 H2O + O2 ----> 2 H2O2 ie., 2 HO-OH Requires an energy input about ~ 418,000 Joules. The reverse reaction 2 H2O2 ----> 2 H20 + O2 gives off the ~ 418,000 Joules. However, you can burn water using Magnesium; 1, H2O + Mg ----> MgO + H2 + Heat 2, H2 + 1/2 O2 ----> H2O + Heat 3, MgO + H2O ----> Mg(OH)2 * * Commonly known as "Milk of Magnesia" which if administered orally, might solve Dennis Lee's PROBLEM. :-) Regards, Frederick > > Knuke > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 06:15:26 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA11884; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 06:12:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 06:12:10 -0800 Sender: jack mail3.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <3826E8AB.2664F1C8 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 15:13:47 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Paradoxes - the "principle" of continuity References: <3825CFC8.1C9D@ca-ois.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"q3JvG.0.cv2.vej9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31516 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim O. wrote: ... as long as the distance between the two remains longer than one "ultimate cosmic step" (See http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/QLeap.html) of Achilles. Since this last step, like all others, is ten times as long as that of the tortoise, this is where Achilles will overtake and start to outdistance the tortoise. The discontinuity of motion allows us to realize that at each (See http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Moment.html#Atomic) cosmic stop any moving body is in a perfect local state relatively to all other bodies in the cosmos, and to realize also that this perfect universal relation is instantaneously altered at each cosmic step. This is both the practicality and the intelligibility of a displacement from where a body is, to where it is going. It is Zeno's logic, and not our everyday practical experience, that is faulty. The answer, of course, is that time has nothing to do with the actual displacement, since the steps are instantaneous. Time is only the measure of the stops, or of the durations of perfect immobility between the steps. As these stops were all simultaneous, (See http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Simult.html#Specific) there is no question at all of "half the time" being involved in the shifting of the columns. Both shiftings took their full time. Hi Jim, Since the base reference in your post is your drive C:, I've taken the liberty to include the full paths for your references above. The base web reference is http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Homepage.html, Boisvert's Discovery of the Discontinuity of Motion Homepage. Wilfrid Boisvert is a remarkable person, and this web site is truly revolutionary. Thanks for letting us know about it. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 06:18:19 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA13578; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 06:17:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 06:17:29 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991108091542.0079f850 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 09:15:42 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wind power facts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8yaqG1.0.4K3.ujj9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31517 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A few more factoids from the Danish site: Wind now generates 10% of Danish electricity. Offshore platforms in the shallow North Sea could easily generate 100% of European electricity. (It's REALLY windy out there!) 70% of Europeans favor wind power development, and 80% of the people who live nearby (or underneath) wind farms favor it. So much for the theory that the noise drives people away. Perhaps people do not mind the noise because it is the sound of money. Private individuals in Europe (particularly landowners) own 80% of the wind farm shares, which are quite profitable. In the U.S. midwest the power companies pay farmers. The equivalent in an urban setting is to have the phone company erect a cell phone tower on your property. It may look ugly, but you should be so lucky! It occurs to me . . . perhaps they could combine wind turbine and cell phones on the same tower? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 06:43:34 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA01722; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 05:41:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 05:41:09 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991108084100.007c1240 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 08:41:00 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Wind power facts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Owal03.0.mQ.rBj9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31512 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This partly in response to John Logajan's comments. Note that wind power worldwide now generates as much energy as nuclear fission did in 1968. No one back then would have dismissed fission as an insignificant fraction of world energy. Here are some quotes from the Danish Wind Turbine Manufacturers Association, http://www.windpower.dk/faqs.htm. This is the most informative, best written web page I have seen on wind power. The dramatic rapid growth of wind power shows that consumers and corporations will buy into alternative energy systems when those systems have technical and economic advantages. If cold fusion can be made viable, it will spread even faster than wind power. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mechanical noise has virtually disappeared from modern wind turbines. This is due to better engineering with more concern about avoiding vibrations. Other technical improvements include elastically dampened fastenings and couplings of the major components in the nacelle, and to a certain extent sound insulation. Wind Turbines have grown dramatically in size and power output. A typical Danish wind turbine of 1980 vintage had a 26 kW generator and a rotor diameter of 10.5 metres. A modern wind turbine has a rotor diameter of 43 metres and a 600 kW generator. It will produce between 1 and 2 million kilowatt hours in a year. This is equivalent to the annual electricity consumption of 300 to 400 European households. The latest generation of wind turbines has a 1,000-1,650 kW generator and a 50-66 metre rotor diameter. In Europe more than 6,600 megawatts of wind power were on-line as of January 1999, covering the average domestic electricity consumption of seven million people. Worldwide 10,000 MW have been installed. This is equivalent to the amount of nuclear power installed worldwide by 1968. The weight of Danish wind turbines has halved in 5 years, the sound level has halved in 3 years, and the annual energy output per turbine has increased 100-fold in 15 years. Today, according to the Danish electrical power companies, the energy cost per kilowatt-hour of electricity from wind is the same as for new coal-fired power stations fitted with smoke scrubbing equipment, i.e. around 0.05 USD per kWh for an average European site. Whereas a wind turbine uses 36 square metres, or 0.0036 hectares to produce between 1.2 and 1.8 million kilowatt hours per year, a typical biofuel plant would require 154 hectares of willow forest to produce 1.3 million kilowatt hours per year. Solar cells would require an area of 1.4 hectares to produce the same amount of electricity per year. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 07:17:52 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA27400; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 07:16:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 07:16:02 -0800 Message-ID: <00ad01bf2a04$8a9ddae0$528e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <3.0.6.32.19991108091542.0079f850 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Wind power facts Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 08:15:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"4eDfC.0.zh6.nak9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jed Rothwell To: Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 6:15 AM Subject: Re: Wind power facts Jed wrote: > Factoids. > Perhaps people do not mind the noise because it is the sound of money. > Private individuals in Europe (particularly landowners) own 80% of the wind > farm shares, which are quite profitable. In the U.S. midwest the power > companies pay farmers. The equivalent in an urban setting is to have the > phone company erect a cell phone tower on your property. It may look ugly, > but you should be so lucky! It occurs to me . . . perhaps they could > combine wind turbine and cell phones on the same tower? The busy Burlington Northern-Santa Fe railroad angles past at about 3/4 miles to the southwest of my 4.5 acre High Yield Biomass Spread. And since the prevailing winds are from the southwest, and the rail crews use the whistles to let their significant others know that they are arriving at the rail yard in a few moments, I would prefer the "whoosh" of a windmill over the din of over 100, mile long trains/day with their ardent whistle-blowers anytime. The latest news on Solar Photovoltaics running ~ 42% conversion efficiency at about $2.00/watt suggests that the cell phone towers could handle both Wind and PVs and if designed properly, would look like a maple tree. :-) Regards, Frederick > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 08:32:59 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA18083; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 08:30:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 08:30:12 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: H2O2 Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:38:31 -0500 Message-ID: <19991108163831921.AAA235 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"LAE9Q2.0.RQ4.Kgl9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31519 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Fred and Mitch, As you may recall, I was getting around a 2% H2O2 production rate with my device as measured by the Hach titration lab. I was always under the impression that the H2O2 was a single molecule form, but the way Fred is writing it, it is actually 2H2O2, is that correct, or is that just momentary until a decay? Does this also mean that there was energy stored in the end product water at the rate of ~400,000 joules per double molecule in addition to the heat energy that I was measuring at the output? If so, then I understated the efficiency rating using just the immediate calorimetry, correct? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 08:53:35 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA27762; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 08:51:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 08:51:16 -0800 Message-ID: <38270A08.1E07 ca-ois.com> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 09:36:08 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Paradoxes - the "principle" of continuity References: <3825CFC8.1C9D@ca-ois.com> <3826E8AB.2664F1C8@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AHdBd.0.in6.3-l9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31520 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Taylor J. Smith wrote: (snip) > The base web reference is > http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Homepage.html, Boisvert's Discovery > of the Discontinuity of Motion Homepage. > > Wilfrid Boisvert is a remarkable person, and this web site is truly > revolutionary. Thanks for letting us know about it. Your welcome, Jack, and thank you for correcting these mistranslated references. My excuse: "I forgot" that's what would happen. :) Anyway, those interested should probably download the whole site, before the MIB's come down on it. ;-) Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 09:35:16 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA12961; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 09:32:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 09:32:24 -0800 Message-ID: <19991108173219.14906.rocketmail web1303.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 09:32:19 -0800 (PST) From: John Logajan Subject: Re: Wind power facts To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"gjS_I1.0.RA3.dam9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31521 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > The dramatic rapid growth of wind power shows that > consumers and corporations will buy into > alternative energy systems when those systems > have technical and economic advantages. Your previous posts in this thread argued the exact opposite. I'm quite willing to let the market decide, a view not apparently shared by many here -- who'd rather use the iron fist of government to compel their visions rather than letting a society of free individuals decide the merits on their own. ===== -- - John Logajan 4234 Hamline Ave, Arden Hills, MN 55112 - jlogajan yahoo.com 651-633-8918 - I don't endorse any commercial message that may appear below. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 09:54:05 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA21213; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 09:52:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 09:52:59 -0800 Message-ID: <00da01bf2a1a$79043b60$528e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <19991108163831921.AAA235 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: H2O2 Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:52:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"WPhrz2.0.BB5.vtm9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31522 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 8:38 AM Subject: H2O2 Knuke wrote: > > I was always under the impression that the H2O2 was a single molecule form, > but the way Fred is writing it, it is actually 2H2O2, is that correct, or is > that just momentary until a decay? 2 H2O2 is two H2O2 Molecules with a molecular structure sush that Two Hydroxyl (OH) groups are attached thusly: HO-OH showing the weak O-O bond in the HO-OH. > > Does this also mean that there was energy stored in the end product water at > the rate of ~400,000 joules per double molecule in addition to the heat > energy that I was measuring at the output? Not quite, the ~ 400,000 Joules is for 2 moles ie., 12.06E24 H202 molecules or 68 grams. > > If so, then I understated the efficiency rating using just the immediate > calorimetry, correct? Correct. The 2% H2O2 will exothermally decompose to 2 H2O + O2. Regards, Frederick > > Knuke > > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 10:35:21 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA00591; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:25:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:25:41 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991108132525.007a7d30 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 13:25:25 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Wind power facts In-Reply-To: <19991108173219.14906.rocketmail web1303.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"V17zI2.0.99.bMn9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31523 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Logajan wrote: >Jed Rothwell wrote: >> The dramatic rapid growth of wind power shows that >> consumers and corporations will buy into >> alternative energy systems when those systems >> have technical and economic advantages. > >Your previous posts in this thread argued the >exact opposite. Not quite. I said consumers and corporations will *buy into* alternative energy. However, they will not usually invest in it. After someone else takes the risk of developing wind power or hybrid electric vehicles, the big companies will jump in, but they seldom take the initiative to develop and market these things in the first place. The wind turbine companies are now building the equivalent of 2 or 3 large nuclear power plants per year, and they account for roughly 0.2% of U.S. power. That's big business, and it will attract big companies like GE and ENRON. They would never bother with the nickel & dime 20 MW per year business circa 1980. But we would not have today's advanced turbines if we had not first built those noisy, inefficient, tax gobbling turbines back then. The taxpayers and people outside the system bore the risk, ENRON collects the profits. Exactly the same thing happened with steam ships, computers, airplanes, penicillin, the Internet, etc., etc. Of course there are exceptions to this rule, but in general, although new ideas are often born within the establishment, they are first developed and marketed by people outside the mainstream, usually without help from conventional sources of capital like Wall Street, although sometimes with enlightened government, foundation or academic grants. The U.S. and British governments together created most of the vital, large scale technology and artifacts of modern civilization. Capitalists don't like to admit that, but when you go down a list of major technologies you will see that many prototypes were first paid for by governments, often in military R&D. Al Gore was partly correct: without his active support and interest the Internet might have take much longer to get started. People ridiculed him for saying that, because they thought he was implying that he made a technical contribution. He made legal and structural contributions. A thing like the Internet, or the highway system, or the power distribution network is a social construct, not just a technical system. It is a system held together by regulations, laws, insurance, tax rules, education and politics. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 11:32:18 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA21830; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:30:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:30:03 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3825CFC8.1C9D ca-ois.com> References: Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 13:18:11 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Zeno's Paradoxes Resent-Message-ID: <"IpMum2.0.yK5.xIo9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31524 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ***{Jim Ostrowsky recently posted an enormous mass of material from a website where it was claimed that Zeno's "paradoxes" somehow prove that motion is discontinuous. The site manager's method of arguing was that of posing a "problem" with the intent of making the reader scratch his head in befuddlement, after which the reader is apparently supposed to accept any assertion made by the site manager. Frankly, I found the arguments to be vacuous in the extreme, and haven't the time to slog through them all. Fortunately, they were variations on a common theme, so one will do. That example, with my analysis, follows. --MJ}*** "Zeno's first paradox involves a race between Achilles and a tortoise. Although he has a ten to one advantage in velocity over the tortoise, Achilles is far from being able to overtake and outdistance the tortoise. He cannot even come close enough to touch the tortoise because each time he covers the distance to the point where the tortoise was the tortoise has gone forward one tenth of that distance." "This is logically correct as long as the distance between the two remains longer than one 'ultimate cosmic step' of Achilles. Since this last step, like all others, is ten times as long as that of the tortoise, this is where Achilles will overtake and start to outdistance the tortoise. The purely logical nature of Zeno's concept of continuous motion must then give way to the practical discontinuity that is a matter of everyday experience, and that is now perceptively demonstrated in these web pages." ***{Pure sophistry. The statement of the "paradox" is intended to prompt the listener to visualize continuous motion as if it is an infinite series of stops and starts. We are supposed to imagine that the tortoise has a lead of x, then that he has a lead of x/10, then that he has a lead of x/100, then that he has a lead of x/1000, then that he has a lead of x/10000, and so on, and we are supposed to be so dumb that we confuse the constant time it will take us to imagine each step with the rapidly decreasing time it will take Achilles to move through those steps. In other words, we are supposed to not recognize that the total amount of time required for Achilles to move through a step will be proportional to the distance from him to the tortoise at the instant before the step began. If we denote the time required for Achilles to traverse the distance x by i, then the total time, t, required for him to catch the tortoise will be the sum of an infinite series. That is: t = i + i/10 + i/100 + ... = i(1 + 1/10 + 1/100 + ...) = i(1.111...) Thus if it takes Achilles 1 second to traverse the distance x, then it will take him 1.111... sec to catch the tortoise. The series is infinite, but it has a finite sum. Bottom line: if I visualize each term in the above infinite series, it will take me an infinite amount of time to do it; but, in spite of that, the sum of the series is finite. Since the sum of the series tells us how long it takes Achilles to catch the tortoise, it is the quantity of interest here, and the fact that it would take us forever to separately visualize each step in the series, is simply irrelevant. --Mitchell Jones}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 11:32:21 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA21862; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:30:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:30:07 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3825C1C3.42F6 ca-ois.com> References: <008e01bf28ae$3daafda0$d4441d26 fjsparber> Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 13:24:07 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Discontinuity of motion experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"rOpYA.0.WL5.-Io9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31525 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Frederick Sparber wrote: >> >> Something to while away the time while the Liberal Arts Level >> Science discussions are flooding Vortex-L :-) >> > >Yeah yeah.... Well here's an experiment for you Frederick. Just so you >know this isn't all just talk. > >http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/PDM.html#PD Moment > > >The discussion of the "principle" of discontinuity (of atomic motion) >having to do with >the above experiment can be found at: > >http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Setup1.html#Setup No. 1 > >Below is a gif of one of the experimental setups. > >Jim Ostrowski > >Attachment converted: HD4000:ATMOMXP.GIF (GIFf/JVWR) (000344B0) ***{Anything with mass has inertia, including thread. Result: if a weight is hung from a thread and a bullet is fired through the thread, time is required for the displacement of the thread to propagate away from the point where the bullet cut through it. So what? --MJ}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 11:32:35 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA21884; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:30:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:30:09 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <382500F2.7663 ca-ois.com> References: Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 13:20:52 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity Resent-Message-ID: <"QYJf11.0.sL5.0Jo9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31526 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >> Jim Ostrowski wrote: > >> > >> > Mitchell Jones proposed that there is what he calls a "Principle of >> > Continuity" which, if it were even suggested that it were not really a >> > "principle" then the idea expressed in such a suggestion would have to be >> > false, or else, if not, ALL of our concepts of reality and knowledge could >> > then possibly be illusory and false as well, including the "knowledge" by >> > someone that such a suggestion was even made in the first place! >> > >> > In other words, the acceptance by someone of the idea that things might be >> > able to come into existence out of "nothing" or, conversely, vanish out of >> > existence into "nothing" would constitute a belief system that if it were >> > widely held, he supposes, could shatter the entire framework of so called >> > "common knowledge" because then, one could never be sure that what one is >> > talking about is real or not. > >Mitchell Jones wrote: >> >> ***{My reasoning about the principle of continuity has nothing to do with >> whether an idea is "widely held" or is "common knowledge." Both of these >> notions assume the existence of other people, an external world in which >> other people can live, and that those other people have minds in which >> ideas can be "common knowledge." The principle of continuity--that no thing >> may come into existence out of nothing or vanish into nothing--must be >> accepted prior to the adoption of such beliefs. > >Let's examine your premise then. You claim that this "principle" is more >fundamental than an individual's belief in an external reality, which >assumes the existence of other people. So therefore if one happens to >believe in the idea that "something may come into existence out of >nothing and that something can vanish into nothing" by means of, say >"magic" (which is merely technology that he does not understand - The >Clarke Principle-) then that person is not allowed to believe in the >existence of an external reality. Is this correct? ***{I never said anything relating the principle of continuity to the structure of human belief. What I said was that if the principle of continuity is false, or may be false, then the structure of human *knowledge* collapses. By "knowledge," I mean beliefs that have been arrived at by means of reason. It is only reason-based beliefs--i.e., knowledge--that require the use of the principle of continuity. Nothing stops you, or anyone, from affirming a belief while denying the validity of the intellectual tools by which that belief might be rationally acquired. People do it all the time. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >If existence as we "know" it is continuous ***{I never said "existence" is continuous. What I said was that motion is continuous. --MJ}*** , how does one billiard ball >transfer information about it's momentum and direction to the other >billiard ball? ***{Collisions transfer energy, not information. We are discussing physics here, not data processing. --MJ}*** > >Let's say there is what I call Ostrowski's theorem (that's OstroWski >with a W -double you- for those of you who need to adjust the focus >control on their monitors...) which states the following: > >1. All data transfer is the result of pre-coding. > >2. There is no data that can be transferred within a time frame = 0. ***{As noted above, collisions transfer energy, not information. However, in either case, "transfer" involves motion, which in turn requires the passage of time. Indeed, non-transfer--merely sitting in one place--also requires the passage of time. [The notion of time arises from the practice of using regular motions--e.g., the motion of a pendulum, or of the hands of a carefully designed, clock, etc.--as standards of comparison against the (mostly) irregular motions that we encounter in the natural environment. Hence if all motion ceases, time ceases as well.] --Mitchell Jones}*** > >The only way I could I could agree that the universe were in a >continuous state of existence (as I understand the meaning of the word >"existence") is if the above theorem could be proven false. ***{Nobody in his right mind would deny that motion requires the passage of time, but that is irrelevant. The issue is whether motion is continuous--i.e., whether it is possible for objects to vanish from one location and reappear somewhere else. You wouldn't be much more off topic if you demanded that I prove that 2 + 2 = 5. --MJ}*** [snip] > >Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 12:27:35 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA09709; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:22:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:22:03 -0800 From: "George Holz" To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Energy-sucking Sansbury Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 15:26:55 -0500 Message-ID: <01bf2a27$997bc5e0$0c6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"awey5.0.dN2.g3p9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31527 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Apparently my message posted on last Friday did not get through to vortex-l. Upon examination however, it appears to not be due to any vorttex-l gremlin but a "feature" of MS Outlook Express. When I added "William Beaty" to my address book and did a reply to author for his last vortex post on this subject, the program cleverly noticed that the email author's name was in my address book and used it in place of the vortex-l address in the from field, oops. In any case, here is the misaddressed message: William Beaty wrote: >...so under SED, the EM radiation is fields/waves (not quantized,) and >only the atoms' electron energy state is quantized? Apparently SED and conventional QM both >say similar things about the size of the coherent-wave region, if >disagreeing about the pointlike nature of the photon. - This is my own PBI (partly baked idea), I have no knowledge of how SED treats photons. This just seemed like a logical combination of ZPF mediated orbital stability and the energy-sucking antenna concept of "photon" atom interaction. - >EM wavetrains have >distinct boundaries which are created when the emitter-atom drifts from >collision to collision-???-, and all the waves within those boundaries are >thought to contain one "photon". - -I don't understand your comment above. Standard QM associates each emitted photon with only one absorbed photon. With this PBI, one emitted "photon" is statistically associated with an average of one absorbed photon, but one emission event could sometimes cause several absorption events. - >Those single-atom experiments in the Penning traps might exhibit some >unconventional phenomena which usually become averaged out when huge >numbers of atoms are involved. > -agreed. > >If one photon is not a point particle, doesn't this mean that an atom can >absorb a fraction of a photon? -In this PBI yes. >And the absorption-event would punch a >hole out of the travelling EM waves? (Huh. As atoms in an optical filter >absorb light, the light which propagates out of the other side of the >filter might have experienced some "chopping", and begin to look like >swiss cheese?) -It seems as though this might happen. Remember that the "chop" will probably be a significant portion of the energy for a "photon" of that frequency. - >From dim memories of reading Feynman's "QED", I suspect that conventional >QM will appeal to the virtual-particle-sea to supply the off-frequency >photons. -Why off frequency "photons"? In the PBI the association of frequency with "photon" energy occurs only during absorption and emission. "Photons" modified by chopping are allowed to have partial energies not determined by frequency. > If an atom emits all possible frequencies,-???? why - but all of them sum >to zero except one, then a high-speed chopper would alter this >summing-to-zero. > >Still, if Sansbury finds odd phenomena involving choppers, the same >effects should impact many other simple experiments in unexpected ways. >If the world does not behave as we imagine, then many commonly imagined >(but not performed) experiments might give unexpected results. > -Won't that be fun! > >What is the cutoff frequency where "photons" no longer exist? Why would >there be one? - With this PBI the difference would be whether the interaction was strictly cyclic. Only with cyclic interactions as from an electron in orbit would the resonant "photon" like interactions be possible. - >Might you say that "photons" leave off when "broadband" phenomena begin? >For example, metals have so many internal states that they SEEM >non-quantized, and SEEM to lack narrow absorption/emission bands, even >though this wouldn't be true of each electron in the metal considered >individually. > The coupling between electrons would make the narrow >resonances apparently vanish. I've heard that there was a recent >experiment (last 10 yrs) with metallic nano-clusters, where conventional >theory predicted that an "electron sea" couldn't form unless quite a >number of atoms were in the cluster. Instead they found evidence that the >"sea" formed with only a few atoms present. A handful of Au atoms might >act like a molecule w/sharp resonances, but add a couple more atoms and it >turns into a metal. Is that what kills the photon-like EM interactions? - In a way this experiment supports the photon free idea, it would take very few extra atoms to provide a great many more resonances. The idea here is that "photon" like behavior requires pronounced narrow band resonance. In a sense this even applies to single electrons in the lattice as repeated interactions are under changing conditions, which prevents the generation of narrow band emissions. The standard misconception is to think of the "photon" emission as being instantaneous. How is this possible when narrow resonance systems are involved. - >If the professionals are universally convinced that simple circuitry hides >no mysteries, then that is good news for mystery-hunters, since the >universal lack of interest could act to preserve the mysteries unscathed. >If simple EM had really been studied to death before being abandoned by >physicists early this century, then the chances that mysteries still exist >within it would be much lower. Because EM was abandoned for QM, and >because contemporary researchers rarely imagine that EM might hold >important discoveries, I suspect that a "region of the unknown" still >exists -I have been exploring exactly this EM area looking for OU behavior almost full time for the last year, and part time for many years, so I clearly agree with your conclusions. I do have extensive experience with resonant circuits from audio to microwave however, and I am not expecting "spooky action at a distance" or quantum mechanical properties to appear in these macroscopic devices. > >So much alt-sci, and so few highly-trained and well-funded crackpots to >study it! > -That line should become the motto for vortex-l . The return for even 1% of the research budget invested in "crackpot" experiments would be enormous. > Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 13:03:47 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA23705; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:57:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:57:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:57:52 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Vortex not working In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991105101747.0079c4e0 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"UozZ_.0.Co5.Mbp9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31528 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Bill: My messages to vortex are not posting. It must be a temporary glitch. > If it does not straighten out and you get a chance, would you please post > this, with two messages attached? There were two Eskimo.com outages. On friday somebody set some file permission wrong on the main list handler, and all lists were down for a few hours. Looks like that mail was lost permanently and needs to be resent. Then on Saturday eskimo had a disk failure that took all email down temporarily, but supposedly no messages got eaten. The vortex-L reliability certainly is better than in the early years, but I wonder if there might be some service which is any better. > > - Jed > > ------------------------------ > > John Logajan wrote: > > >In this day and age there is plenty of capital available for even the > >largest project if there is a remote chance of a positive return on > >investment. > > I do not think so. That has never been the case. There is always capital > for safe, conventional projects, but not for anything out of the ordinary. > A famous example was the transcontinental railroad, which went begging for > funds for 10 or 15 years at the height of the biggest railroad boom in > history. It was only built when Lincoln pushed it though and Congress > guaranteed massive government subsidies and land grants. It was built as > part of the war effort, like the interstate highway system 90 years later. > (Interstate ring highways around major cities were designed to allow troop > movements after nuclear attacks.) In these massive projects, taxpayers took > on the risk, the capitalists took the profits. > > > >Solar, wind, and geothermal simply don't offer a ROI, and it has > >nothing to do with businessmen's decisions > > According to EPRI and the New York Times, wind power electricity is the > fastest growing source of energy, and in many locations it is the cheapest. > Cheaper even than gas or oil. For several years in the '80s wind power was > subsidized in California. Many conservatives criticized this, saying it led > to inefficiencies. However, these "wind farms" were used to field test and > develop new technology, which improved rapidly, and today wind is extremely > reliable and cost effective. The conservatives forgot that most major > technology have received a boost from the government, either tax cuts or > direct subsidies. Examples include mass produced rifles, canals, steam > engines, railroads, steam ships, telegraphs, hydroelectricity, highways > (and by extension, automobiles), steel and textiles (protected by tariffs), > airplanes, transistors, computers and space exploration. The only major > technologies which were not propped up by the government for years were > telephones and electric lights. Investors took to them immediately so there > was no need for subsidies. > > - Jed > > ------------------------------ > > >From the USA Today on-line article > http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/review/crg549.htm: > > "We will prove tonight that you can run a car on water -- regular tap > water. If you can burn hydrogen and you can burn oxygen, why can't you burn > water?" > > What an idiot! His audiences must be made up of grade school dropouts. You > would think someone would stand up and say: "'cause its already burned!!!" > > There are lots of other outrageous quotes in this article, short as it is. > It's enough to make you throw up. Perhaps I.E. should ask permission to > reprint it, just to show how awful these people can be. > > - Jed > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 15:27:03 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA12045; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 15:24:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 15:24:00 -0800 Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 15:23:52 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Curl free magnetic vector potential waves In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991106110909.009ebac0 mail.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"PoDLD.0.7y2.Gkr9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31529 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott The B-Field flux is through the loop which goes through the center of the toroid, so it is no wonder that a voltage appears across the loops terminals, and if connected a current will flow. This is how you make toroidal transformers! Hank On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, Scott Little wrote: > At 11:18 PM 11/5/99 -0800, Jim Ostrowski wrote: > > >Frank went on to say that the bottom line is that he did not really > >understand the Magnetic Vector potential in depth either, but if you > >would fill me in on the details of what kind of test config you and > >Scott were talking about before.... > > We were talking about communicating using A-phi waves. Waves composed of > phi (the eletric scalar potential) and A (the magnetic vector potential) > analogous to E-M waves but containing absolutely no E or B. Yes, this is > also the subject of the Gelinas patents. > > Some folks like to say that A is just a mathematical construct to make > solving EM problems easier. However, the operation of a toroidal xfmr > makes me think that A is a very real field. Energize a perfect toroid with > AC current. All the B is contained inside the toroidal core and B is > identically zero everywhere outside the core. However, the magnetic vector > potential, A, fills all of space around the toroid. It's "lines" loop > through the center hole of the toroid. > > Thread a loop of wire through the center hole and connect the ends. POW! a > huge current is induced in the loop by...what? The B inside the core > cannot possibly "touch" the electrons in the loop of wire. The only thing > out there is the A. Maxwell's eqns will yield E = -dA/dt and that > expression accurately predicts the voltage that appears in the threaded loop. > > Now unthread the loop and connect it into a loop again but this time NOT > going through the center hole in the toroid. No current will flow in the > loop this time. That's because even though the loop is immersed in a > strong alternating A field, the field has zero curl (i.e. there's no B > inside any closed loop out there). The line integral around any closed > loop in this zero-curl field is identically zero (Stokes theorem, I believe). > > Fun fact: The A field that equatorially encircles the Earth is about 150 > tesla-meters, higher than anything that can possibly be created in the > laboratory. > > > Scott Little > EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 > 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) > little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 15:50:05 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA17931; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 15:41:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 15:41:27 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991108173926.01830914 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 17:39:26 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Curl free magnetic vector potential waves In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19991106110909.009ebac0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Mo0bA.0.5O4.d-r9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31530 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:23 PM 11/8/99 -0800, you wrote: >Scott > The B-Field flux is through the loop which goes through >the center of the toroid, so it is no wonder that a voltage >appears across the loops terminals, and if connected a current >will flow. This is how you make toroidal transformers! Agreed. It's Lenz's law. The point I was making is that the B in the core never "touches" the electrons in the secondary loop, thus we cannot use the B in the core to really understand HOW the electrons in the secondary are forced to move. As I see it, we are forced to accept that the A (specifically the dA/dt) can create an E field and that is what actually MAKES the electrons move. I come at this from the study of generators, where you usually think about electrons being forced to move because conductors are cutting through flux lines. This xfmr thing seems at first fundamentally different but now I think it's the "real" mechanism and the flux-cutting business is just an equivalent viewpoint that only works when the conductors are immersed in the magnetic field. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 17:01:09 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA11642; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:54:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:54:55 -0800 Message-ID: <001a01bf2a55$619c8e60$24441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: THE PHOTON'S MAGNETIC FIELD Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:54:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01BF2A12.427B0680" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"U16xT3.0.qr2.U3t9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31531 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BF2A12.427B0680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable THE PHOTON'S MAGNETIC FIELD World Scientific Series in Contemporary Chemical Physics - Vol. 1=20 THE PHOTON'S MAGNETIC FIELD Optical NMR Spectroscopy by Myron W Evans (Univ. North Carolina, Charlotte & Cornell Theory Ctr.) = This book is a collection of papers on a fundamentally new concept in = physics =97 the photon's magnetic field, Bp. It discusses various = applications of Bp to predict the existence of new magneto-optic = phenomena and to reinterpret some of the fundamentals of optics in terms = of Bp of the photon. One of these new phenomena, optical NMR = spectroscopy, has already been verified experimentally, leading to a new = analytical technique of widespread potential utility.=20 Contents:=20 a.. Optical NMR and ESR Spectroscopy =97 Equivalent Magnetic Flux = Density of the Circularly Polarised Laser=20 b.. The Magnetostatic Flux Density BP of the Electromagnetic Field: = Development and Classical Interpretation=20 c.. The Elementary Static Magnetic Field of the Photon=20 d.. On the Experimental Measurement of the Photon's Fundamental Static = Magnetic Field Operator, BP: The Optical Zeeman Effect in Atoms=20 e.. On the Experimental Detection of the Photon's Fundamental Static = Magnetic Field Operator: The Anomalous Optical Zeeman and Optical = Paschen Back Effects=20 f.. The Photon's Magnetostatic Flux Quantum: Symmetry and Wave = Particle Duality, Fundamental Consequences in Physical Optics=20 g.. The Photon's Magnetostatic Flux Quantum BP: On the Absence of = Faraday Induction=20 h.. The Optical Faraday Effect and Optical MCD=20 i.. The Photon's Magnetostatic Flux Density BP: The Inverse Faraday = Effect Revisited=20 j.. The Photon's Magnetostatic Flux Quantum: The Optical Cotton Mouton = Effect=20 k.. The Photon's Magnetic Flux Quantum BP: The Magnetic Nature of = Antisymmetric Light Scattering=20 l.. The Photon's Magnetostatic Flux Quantum: Forward Backward = Birefringence Induced by a Laser=20 Readership: Physicists, chemists, material scientists and research = students.=20 264pp Pub. date: Jan 1993=20 ISBN 981-02-1265-8 US$49 / =A334=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BF2A12.427B0680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable THE PHOTON'S MAGNETIC FIELD

World Scientific = Series in=20 Contemporary Chemical Physics - Vol. 1

THE=20 PHOTON'S MAGNETIC FIELD
Optical NMR=20 Spectroscopy

by Myron W Evans (Univ. North = Carolina,=20 Charlotte & Cornell Theory Ctr.)

This book is a=20 collection of papers on a fundamentally new concept in physics =97 the = photon's=20 magnetic field, B_p. It = discusses=20 various applications of B_p = to predict=20 the existence of new magneto-optic phenomena and to reinterpret some of = the=20 fundamentals of optics in terms of B_p=20 of the photon. One of these new phenomena, optical NMR spectroscopy, has = already=20 been verified experimentally, leading to a new analytical technique of=20 widespread potential utility.=20

Contents:

Optical NMR and ESR Spectroscopy =97 Equivalent Magnetic Flux = Density of the=20 Circularly Polarised Laser=20
The Magnetostatic Flux Density B_P of the Electromagnetic Field: Development = and=20 Classical Interpretation=20
The Elementary Static Magnetic Field of the Photon=20
On the Experimental Measurement of the Photon's Fundamental Static = Magnetic Field Operator, B_P: The=20 Optical Zeeman Effect in Atoms=20
On the Experimental Detection of the Photon's Fundamental Static = Magnetic=20 Field Operator: The Anomalous Optical Zeeman and Optical Paschen Back = Effects=20
The Photon's Magnetostatic Flux Quantum: Symmetry and Wave = Particle=20 Duality, Fundamental Consequences in Physical Optics=20
The Photon's Magnetostatic Flux Quantum B_P: On the Absence of Faraday Induction=20
The Optical Faraday Effect and Optical MCD=20
The Photon's Magnetostatic Flux Density B_P: The Inverse Faraday Effect Revisited=20
The Photon's Magnetostatic Flux Quantum: The Optical Cotton Mouton = Effect=20
The Photon's Magnetic Flux Quantum B_P: The Magnetic Nature of Antisymmetric = Light=20 Scattering=20
The Photon's Magnetostatic Flux Quantum: Forward Backward = Birefringence=20 Induced by a Laser

Readership: Physicists, = chemists,=20 material scientists and research students.

264pp	Pub. date: Jan 1993
ISBN 981-02-1265-8	US$49 / =A334

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BF2A12.427B0680-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 17:05:57 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA14372; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:02:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:02:10 -0800 Message-ID: <002b01bf2a56$6ac1c0e0$24441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Does light exist between events Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 18:01:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF2A13.52FE3580" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"p31jA.0.QW3.IAt9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31532 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF2A13.52FE3580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://members.icanect.net/~zardoz/light.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF2A13.52FE3580 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Does light exist between events.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Does light exist between events.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://members.icanect.net/~zardoz/light.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://members.icanect.net/~zardoz/light.htm Modified=A0A40056562ABF01DA ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF2A13.52FE3580-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 17:32:05 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA25584; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:29:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:29:22 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19991107230506718.AAA242 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:26:15 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Unreadable Messages Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA25562 Resent-Message-ID: <"_lfG31.0.bF6.nZt9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31534 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I don't know what this looks like to you, but to me it is all plain vanilla >extended character (over 128) ASCII garbage. No Cyrillic, some Roman, >German, Math symbols, etc. I had a problem with my browser font settings >getting tweaked a couple of months ago, and even some of my webpages looked >like this. If your mail program is part of Netscape, check the font setting >for the fixed width, non-truetype font. ***{My e-mail program is Eudora Pro. However, I did check the font settings. Result: I discovered that the default fixed-length font was 0-point Monaco! That's *zero* point, ladies and gentlemen! :-) I changed it to 12-point Courier. Hopefully, that will solve the problem. Thanks. --MJ}*** Otherwise, I would contact the >sender, and ask them to give you a call on the phone. > >Knuke > >>I received the following message via e-mail this morning. On my computer (a >>Macintosh), this looks like a mixture of Cyrillic, Greek, and perhaps >>Arabic characters, with some mathematical symbols thrown in for good >>measure. I have no idea what it says. Is there some trick I can use to >>convert this stuff into a readable message? (I have been getting a lot of >>this stuff lately.) --Mitchell Jones >> >> >> ********************** >> ج�"�~�ϧ��*Xؾ >> ********************** >> >> �M��A��"*��ϧ��ߩ"ؾ�H�C >> >> *x*_�U�*؉�"*��ϧ��*۰A�A�X�U��"�~��D�I�I >> >> ߎ��Z�q��̓T�B��жh*��Y�n*Xؾ��ϧ��A*��*�𵤱z��D�԰A >> >> � �w�n��zߔ�ϧ@�B��A�X�z�;{�z�ؼ��"��"�I�I�I�I >> >> ��ϰG >> �j�w�� p �G��n�B*_��ج�ϰA80�w500�W�I�I >> �Q�s�� p �G�n� �F�� T�B*|�qج�� 50�w250�W �I�I >> �H�q�� p �G�ڏ��٧G�q�A�H�q�٧T�qج�ϰA��c��j�"�C 30-280�W�I�I >> ��s�� p �G��w�F�ٰA��s*_��ج�� 70�w200�W �I�I >> >> �n��B��ڰB��Ӽq��n�ȧu�~�ȃ��I�I >> >> >> �A�� A�~�˴O�"�C�w�Ԩ��. >> >> >> ��T�� "*ڄ� >> �p��H�G��p�j >> TeL�]*N�̽��^�G 02-25705975 >> >> �z��N�A�Oߎ�Á��N�C >> >> >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 17:36:22 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA25550; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:29:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:29:17 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BF2965.DCDE5FE0 istf-1-9.ucdavis.edu> Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 18:52:04 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: RE: Unreadable Messages Resent-Message-ID: <"x_aOB2.0.8F6.jZt9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31533 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >It definitely looks like an encoding/decoding problem. A little context >might be helpful in diagnosis. Some clues: was the entire message like >that, or just an attachment? ***{The entire message, including even the subject line. --MJ}*** Do all messages from the same sender come out that way, and if so have they always done so? ***{Um, I dunno. I replied to one of them, several months ago, and pointed out that the messages were unreadable at my end, but the guy either didn't reply, or else replied by sending me more garbage that I couldn't read. Since then, I have been simply deleting them. I get one or two a week like that. I guess I will have to accumulate a few and see if they are all from the same source. --MJ}*** > >I did a little ascii decoding, and wasn't able to see anything simple like >an added high-order bit. It's interesting that all of the spaces and >carriage returns came through o.k; perhaps there was an odd font or >character set selected on the sender's end that didn't translate correctly. ***{Or else some guy is sending me encrypted messages, trying to lure me into a code breaking contest. Unfortunately, I haven't been interested in such things since the 1960's. --MJ}*** > >Dan Quickert From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 19:41:54 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA02177; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:31:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:31:09 -0800 Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:35:34 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Jim Ostrowski cc: Vortex Subject: 1/64,000 sec... is SLOW In-Reply-To: <38265C8C.66B4 ca-ois.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"BZe2S2.0.xX.zLv9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31535 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Jim, This is not a discontinuous limit. We can and do see things faster. qOne method involves rotating drum film carrier. A hollow drum holds photograohic film and is caused to rotate at high speed. A prism convery light onto the film... Nice pics of a handgrenade in Advanced Imaging mag some years ago. My opinion of quantum limits and continuity limits is we are no where NEAR them. There is no quant of time, or distance or position. Nor are there gravitational,inertial or acceleration quants... in my opinion. There are quant limits in some people's minds, but not mine.... Opinion. On Sun, 7 Nov 1999, Jim Ostrowski wrote: > John Schnurer wrote: > > > > Dear Jim, > > > > Can you please give me an idea of this experiemnt in ASCII? > > > > Thank you. > > > > John > > > Dear John, > > Drawing things in ascii in these daya of gifs an jpegs is like > programming in binary > (machine language). A lot of work for the small anount of information > transmitted. An ascii picture is not worth 1k words. I have drawn lots > of gifs for vortex, I suggest you get together with your friend Kyle and > have him convert my gifs to something your computer can handle. > > > =============>=========*/======>==================== > -----| ^-- > + 400 Vdc_| strobe | | > | light | ----- > --- > - > > Basically the idea is to trigger a strobonar flashlamp by striking it's > bared grounding wire with a bullet that you are going to subsequently > photograph. The bullet, passing from left to right in the above > asciigraph strikes the bared grounding wire causing the grounding wire > to strke a grounding post, which results in a single flash of the > strobe. > > The strobonar flash duration in these experiments was set to 1/70000 > sec. > > If motion is smooth and continous there will be a smear of length l > equal to the distance the bullet travels in 1/70000 of a second. However > motion is not continous so > the bullet image appears with no smear at either of it's ends, as if it > were just a levitated object. > > Boisvert, who is now 92 years old, developed these photographic > techniques long ago, and I remember seeing these pictures back in the > 50's when I was a kid. > > Boisert has determined that the unviversal discontinuity duration is > 1/64000 sec. > > Jim > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 19:53:32 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA06379; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:44:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:44:39 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <000501bf2a64$bf13b820$0101a8c0 john> From: "John Logajan" To: References: <3.0.6.32.19991108132525.007a7d30 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Wind power facts Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:44:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"GBY_J.0.bZ1.dYv9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31536 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Once again I will bow out from further political debates on this forum, as they are not appropriate. But my silence should not be taken as an acceptance or endorsement of the rather noxious politics of aggression that are too often proposed here. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan yahoo.com -- 651-633-8918 - - 4234 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - I don't endorse any commercial messages that may appear below. - __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 20:00:12 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA09428; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:58:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:58:09 -0800 From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: Curl free magnetic vector potential waves Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:27:19 -0500 Message-ID: <01bf2a49$2efb65f0$0c6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"DpI3_.0.EJ2.Glv9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31537 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott wrote: >As I see it, we are forced to accept that the A >(specifically the dA/dt) can create an E field and that is what actually >MAKES the electrons move. > This xfmr thing seems at first fundamentally different but now I >think it's the "real" mechanism and the flux-cutting business is just an >equivalent viewpoint that only works when the conductors are immersed in >the magnetic field. - Right, flux cutting is often not an appropriate way of looking at induction, but dA/dT always works. I have made some interesting conclusions about exactly where in each transformer turn the induced voltages occur, and the relationship to the longitudinal force on the electrons in the wire. This force definitely exists in my (and others) experiments but is denied in contemporary physics. It is relatively easy to show that if the longitudinal force does not exist, that energy is not conserved in simple thought experiments involving induction. - George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 22:18:30 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA15739; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:16:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:16:03 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991109001514.008eb400 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 00:15:14 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Curl free magnetic vector potential waves In-Reply-To: <01bf2a49$2efb65f0$0c6cd626 george.varisys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"r7HqN3.0.nr3.Zmx9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31538 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:27 PM 11/8/99 -0500, George Holz wrote: >Right, flux cutting is often not an appropriate way of looking at >induction, but dA/dT always works. I have made some interesting >conclusions about exactly where in each transformer turn the induced >voltages occur, and the relationship to the longitudinal force on the >electrons in the wire. This force definitely exists in my (and others) >experiments but is denied in contemporary physics. Wait a minute. There certainly is a longitudinal force on the electrons in a xfmr 2ndary but it's not Ampere's controversial longitudinal force, it's a simple electric field force caused by the dA/dt. The expression E = -dA/dt means that there is an electric field that exists along the length of the 2ndary conductors. It is this field that creates the open-circuit voltage in the 2ndary and it is also this field that makes the electrons in the 2ndary move when a load is placed on the xfmr. Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 22:22:47 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA18600; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:22:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:22:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3827C5A0.4C8F ca-ois.com> Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 22:56:32 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mU0e02.0.YY4.Bsx9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31539 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > > >> Jim Ostrowski wrote: (snip) if one happens to > >believe in the idea that "something may come into existence out of > >nothing and that something can vanish into nothing" by means of, say > >"magic" (which is merely technology that he does not understand - The > >Clarke Principle-) then that person is not allowed to believe in the > >existence of an external reality. Is this correct? > > ***{I never said anything relating the principle of continuity to the > structure of human belief. What I said was that if the principle of > continuity is false, or may be false, then the structure of human > *knowledge* collapses Let me be the first to inform you that indeed, your "principle" of contunuity IS NOT a principle. A principle is the statement of an observed fact of physics or nature, that has experimental validity, and the theory that motion is continuous, has been in fact, invalidated by the results of experiment. Does this mean that things can come into existence out of "nothing" or conversely vanish into "nothing"? We'll see..... > By "knowledge," I mean beliefs that have been > arrived at by means of reason. It is only reason-based beliefs--i.e., > knowledge--that require the use of the principle of continuity. Nothing > stops you, or anyone, from affirming a belief while denying the validity of > the intellectual tools by which that belief might be rationally acquired. > People do it all the time. --Mitchell Jones}*** > If one thinks the "intellectual tool" (some alleged "principle") is false, and can can demonstrate that it in fact IS false, then a belief based on the result of that experiment then becomes "knowledge" in controversion of the "intellectual tool". Achilles CAN catch the tortoise, no matter what Zeno "reasoned" out of his imagination. Motion Is NOT continuous, no matter what ramifications this may have as regarding your sanity. If your whole structure of knowledge and belief come crashing down to ruin and you are left muttering to yourself in the dark, drooling and cursing, it will not change the observed facts one bit. > > >If existence as we "know" it is continuous > > ***{I never said "existence" is continuous. What I said was that motion is > continuous. --MJ}*** > Good, now we're getting somwhere. I'll take the opposite position. Motion is NOT continuous. I was wondering when we would get down to to the testable statements of alleged fact. > , how does one billiard ball > >transfer information about it's momentum and direction to the other > >billiard ball? > > ***{Collisions transfer energy, not information. They transfer both. When the energy from the first billiard ball is transfeered to the second it simultaneously transmits information. If that were not so, then one could not predict where either ball will go, which both physicists can do in theory, and good "pool dharks" can do in practice. >We are talking physics here, not data processing. --MJ}*** The physics of billiards involves data processing, the target ball proceeses the data imparted to it from the source ball, and responds uniquely to that information in a predictable way, just like your computer responds uniquely and predictably to magnetic influences from your spinning hard disk. > >Let's say there is what I call Ostrowski's theorem (that's OstroWski > >with a W -double you- for those of you who need to adjust the focus > >control on their monitors...) which states the following: > > > >1. All data transfer is the result of pre-coding. > > > >2. There is no data that can be transferred within a time frame = 0. > > ***{As noted above, collisions transfer energy, not information. False. they transfer both. > However, > in either case, "transfer" involves motion, which in turn requires the > passage of time. Indeed, non-transfer--merely sitting in one place--also > requires the passage of time. [The notion of time arises from the practice > of using regular motions--e.g., the motion of a pendulum, or of the hands > of a carefully designed, clock, etc.--as standards of comparison against > the (mostly) irregular motions that we encounter in the natural > environment. Hence if all motion ceases, time ceases as well.] --Mitchell > Jones}*** Only if ALL motion ceases simultaneously, which it probably does "usually". However, I would bet that this quality could be altered with the appropriate technology or a rarely occasional combination of natural forces.. > > >The only way I could I could agree that the universe were in a > >continuous state of existence (as I understand the meaning of the word > >"existence") is if the above theorem could be proven false. > > ***{Nobody in his right mind would deny that motion requires the passage of > time, but that is irrelevant. The issue is whether motion is > continuous--i.e., whether it is possible for objects to vanish from one > location and reappear somewhere else. That is the exact point of the experiments I referred to earlier. If I could prove that motion is not continuous then I suppose your whole structure of reality would crumble to the point where you wouldn't know your ass from your elbow. But that would be YOOR PROBLEM, not mine. > You wouldn't be much more off topic > if you demanded that I prove that 2 + 2 = 5. --MJ}*** > We've settled onm what the topic is haven't we? As in: You allege that motion is continuous, and I allege that it is not. I say it is not based on the results of experiments by Wilfrid Boisvert, which you may read about by clicking below, should you so choose to inform yourself, and not remain ignorant (which is something I wouldn't bet on, this information was posted yesterday): http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/PDM.html#PD Here is the short version for those having attention span deficits (with the exception of John Schnurer who I composed this for originally, who suffers only from having an outmoded computer, which cannot access the web, apparently): -----begin copy----- =============>=========*/======>==================== -----| ^-- + 400 Vdc_| strobe | | | light | ----- --- - The idea is to trigger a strobonar flashlamp by striking it's bared grounding wire with a bullet that you are going to subsequently photograph. The bullet, passing from left to right in the above asciigraph strikes the bared grounding wire causing the grounding wire to strke a grounding post, which results in a single flash of the strobe. The strobonar flash duration in these experiments was set to 1/70000 sec. If motion is smooth and continous there will be a smear of length l equal to the distance the bullet travels in 1/70000 of a second (about .48 inches). However motion is not continous so the bullet image appears with no smear at either of it's ends, as if it were just a levitated object. ------end copy-------- Has this experimental result collapsed your structure of reality yet? If it has, that's really too bad .... hope you get well soon, Mitchell! Jim O - S - T - R - O - W - S - K - I _Not_ Ostrowsky jeez.....(sigh) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Nov 8 23:47:58 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA06175; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:47:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:47:09 -0800 Message-ID: <3827DBEA.3EAB ca-ois.com> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 00:31:39 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 1/64,000 sec... is SLOW References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4MBQr1.0.PW1.z5z9u" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31540 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > > > > Dear Jim, > > This is not a discontinuous limit. Explain the lack of edge smearing then, if the bullet is not actually at the moment of being phtographed, standing still. The fact that faster objects take longer quantum jumps and are more difficult to catch on film except with better technology, is irrelevant to whether or not this experiment showsa what it appears to show. > We can and do see things faster. No one is saying that we can't. > > qOne method involves rotating drum film carrier. > A hollow drum holds photograohic film and is caused to rotate at > high speed. > A prism convery light onto the film... Nice pics of a handgrenade > in Advanced Imaging mag some years ago. > Do you wish to discuss the experiment as presented or some other experiment? > My opinion of quantum limits and continuity limits is we are no > where NEAR them. Nowhere near them with what? > There is no quant of time, or distance or position. This experiment is about continuity vs discontinuity of MOTION. > > Nor are there gravitational,inertial or acceleration quants... in > my opinion. Your are then a theorist arguing that your theory supercedes the result of experiment....as you said once, "BENCH IT", John. > There are quant limits in some people's minds, but not > mine.... Opinion. Whatever happened to the experimentalist we once knew? Why does "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" come to mind? Jim > > > On Sun, 7 Nov 1999, Jim Ostrowski wrote: > > > John Schnurer wrote: > > > > > > Dear Jim, > > > > > > Can you please give me an idea of this experiemnt in ASCII? > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > John > > > > > > Dear John, > > > > Drawing things in ascii in these daya of gifs an jpegs is like > > programming in binary > > (machine language). A lot of work for the small anount of information > > transmitted. An ascii picture is not worth 1k words. I have drawn lots > > of gifs for vortex, I suggest you get together with your friend Kyle and > > have him convert my gifs to something your computer can handle. > > > > > > =============>=========*/======>==================== > > -----| ^-- > > + 400 Vdc_| strobe | | > > | light | ----- > > --- > > - > > > > Basically the idea is to trigger a strobonar flashlamp by striking it's > > bared grounding wire with a bullet that you are going to subsequently > > photograph. The bullet, passing from left to right in the above > > asciigraph strikes the bared grounding wire causing the grounding wire > > to strke a grounding post, which results in a single flash of the > > strobe. > > > > The strobonar flash duration in these experiments was set to 1/70000 > > sec. > > > > If motion is smooth and continous there will be a smear of length l > > equal to the distance the bullet travels in 1/70000 of a second. However > > motion is not continous so > > the bullet image appears with no smear at either of it's ends, as if it > > were just a levitated object. > > > > Boisvert, who is now 92 years old, developed these photographic > > techniques long ago, and I remember seeing these pictures back in the > > 50's when I was a kid. > > > > Boisert has determined that the unviversal discontinuity duration is > > 1/64000 sec. > > > > Jim > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 04:54:03 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA13276; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 04:48:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 04:48:37 -0800 Message-ID: <002001bf2ab9$1dedbfe0$1f441d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: The Atacama Large Millimeter Array and Neutrino Detection Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 05:47:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF2A75.E2486A00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"CpUiI.0.MF3.bW1Au" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31541 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF2A75.E2486A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Vortex This might detect the ~ 4.85E13 Hz "weak" Neutrinos-AntiNeutrinos down the road. http://www.mma.nrao.edu/ Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF2A75.E2486A00 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="The Atacama Large Millimeter Array Web Site.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="The Atacama Large Millimeter Array Web Site.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.mma.nrao.edu/ [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.mma.nrao.edu/ Modified=60734746B82ABF0102 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF2A75.E2486A00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 05:12:17 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA17778; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 05:11:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 05:11:28 -0800 Message-ID: <38281CB9.ED87CA58 ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 02:08:09 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: fields...or not References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Jzsta1.0.dL4.0s1Au" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31542 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The problem here is that to you only solid hard matter is real, and fields are not. "it hit the field" is a complete answer if you treat the field as an entity, personally I don't think there is any hard solid matter, I think it is all field. I consider a field to be a type of "entity" or material... you seem to look at it as the only real thing... I could take the reverse point of view and say that referring to a particle or other thing without assigning it as being the effect of a field as being non-responsive... it comes down to "what is real and fundamental to you, and is just an abstraction?) I say fields are real, and matter is just an abstraction... you say matter is real and fields are abstractions or you could hold that both are real... Mitchell Jones wrote: > >At 11:01 AM 11/6/99 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > >>***{I think you should keep it simple. If your probes are out along the > >>axis of a dipole, the RF emissions will be minimized, and when the excess > >>electrons move away from the nearby pole, there will be no ambiguity about > >>the movement. > > > >OK, fine. I agree that this geometry will be cleaner. > > > >>As to why no physical field can be mathematically continuous in space, the > >>answer is that such a notion would imply that the forces exerted by the > >>field are not delivered by particles, which would imply that the work done > >>by those forces is not done by entities, which in turn would mean that the > >>energy involved simply leaps into existence out of nothing.... > > > >Why do you say the energy involved has to leap into existence out of > >nothing? > > ***{If an electron is deflected from its course at a specific point in > space, work is done at that location. The question is, by what entity is > the work done? With what object did the electron collide, which caused it > to divert from its course? If you say "the field," that is non-responsive, > because the question was about the event that occured in a tiny region of > space, and "the field" occupies a vast region. Since the event of interest > was of a localized nature, a generalized answer is insufficient. > > Perhaps an analogy will make the point clear. If you say "A bug hit my > car," and I say, "What, specifically, did he hit?" it would be > non-responsive of you to reply, "He hit my car." The intent of the question > was, "What part of your car did the bug hit?" Responsive answers would be, > "He hit the left front headlight," or "He hit the windshield," etc. > > Similarly, if you say, "The electron was deflected by the magnetic field," > and I say, "What, specifically, did it hit?" the intent of the question > would be to determine what part of the field--*what entity*-- struck the > electron or was struck by it. Thus it would be non-responsive of you to > reply, "It hit the magnetic field." A responsive answer would be,"The > electron hit a line of flux and was deflected by it." Unfortunately, the > mindset of "modern" physics does not permit such answers, and--correct me > if I am wrong--you would never say such a thing. Instead, you would deny > that any such linear structure--any entity having mass and form and > composed of internal parts--exists at that location. In effect, you would > be saying that the energy involved leaps into existence out of nothing, > because either there is some entity present at the specific location where > the electron was deflected, to cause the deflection, or else there isn't > anything there. If you say nothing was there, you in effect claim that the > energy necessary to deflect the electron leaped into existence out of > nothing. > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > >It's perfectly consistent to say the field itself has energy and that, when > >it does work on a particle, the field energy decreases accordingly. > > ***{Yes, but it is non-responsive, if I ask you what the electron struck at > a specific location within the field, to say that it struck "the field." > You have to either respond by attempting to discuss the part of the field > which the electron struck at that location, or else by denying that the > field has a discrete part at that location. If you do the former, you > abandon the notion that the field is mathematically continuous, and if you > do the latter, you endorse the view that the energy leaped into existence > out of nothing. --MJ}*** > > > > > > >Scott Little > >EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 > >512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) > >little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 06:24:30 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA04593; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 06:17:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 06:17:53 -0800 Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:22:31 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 1/64,000 sec... is SLOW In-Reply-To: <3827DBEA.3EAB ca-ois.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Eyu1U2.0.h71.Hq2Au" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31543 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo and Jim. See notes in text. AND: I am NOT here to participate in an argument. On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Jim Ostrowski wrote: > John Schnurer wrote: > > > > Dear Jim, > > > > This is not a discontinuous limit. > Please define the camera and we can answer why you see a nice clear picture. Most people who use high speed imaging do not publish smeared pictures. They are, usually, justly proud of a clean shot. You should study the state of the art in high speed cameras. Try the journal "Information Display" which is the journal for SID, Society for Information Display. After you have spoken to some writers and contributing writers on high speed imaging, nd after you have read some of the articles on the topic and have seen some conference proceeding contributions... THEN we can discuss the method of making the image and what it means. > Explain the lack of edge smearing then, if the bullet is not actually at > the moment of being phtographed, standing still. The fact that faster > objects take longer quantum jumps and are more difficult to catch on > film except with better technology, is irrelevant to whether or not this > experiment showsa what it appears to show. > See above. > > > We can and do see things faster. > > No one is saying that we can't. > > > > > qOne method involves rotating drum film carrier. > > A hollow drum holds photograohic film and is caused to rotate at > > high speed. > > A prism convery light onto the film... Nice pics of a handgrenade > > in Advanced Imaging mag some years ago. > > > > Do you wish to discuss the experiment as presented or some other > experiment? The use of a drum camera is NOT an experiment. It is a method of high speed imaging. > > > > My opinion of quantum limits and continuity limits is we are no > > where NEAR them. > > Nowhere near them with what? > > > There is no quant of time, or distance or position. > > This experiment is about continuity vs discontinuity of MOTION. > OK. What is the "experiment" of a photograph of a speeding bullet? And what is the method of image capture and what was the intended goal of the photographers? If their aim or one of their aims was to get a nice clean image, then they did. If you want to see a smeared image then ask the persons who made the image what you want to do to to get a smeared image. > > > > Nor are there gravitational,inertial or acceleration quants... in > > my opinion. > > Your are then a theorist arguing that your theory supercedes the result > of experiment....as you said once, "BENCH IT", John. What theory? > > > There are quant limits in some people's minds, but not > > mine.... Opinion. > > Whatever happened to the experimentalist we once knew? > Still an experimentalist .. with a degree of experience in imaging. > Why does "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" come to mind? > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 7 Nov 1999, Jim Ostrowski wrote: > > > > > John Schnurer wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Jim, > > > > > > > > Can you please give me an idea of this experiemnt in ASCII? > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > Dear John, > > > > > > Drawing things in ascii in these daya of gifs an jpegs is like > > > programming in binary > > > (machine language). A lot of work for the small anount of information > > > transmitted. An ascii picture is not worth 1k words. I have drawn lots > > > of gifs for vortex, I suggest you get together with your friend Kyle and > > > have him convert my gifs to something your computer can handle. > > > > > > > > > =============>=========*/======>==================== > > > -----| ^-- > > > + 400 Vdc_| strobe | | > > > | light | ----- > > > --- > > > - > > > > > > Basically the idea is to trigger a strobonar flashlamp by striking it's > > > bared grounding wire with a bullet that you are going to subsequently > > > photograph. The bullet, passing from left to right in the above > > > asciigraph strikes the bared grounding wire causing the grounding wire > > > to strke a grounding post, which results in a single flash of the > > > strobe. > > > > > > The strobonar flash duration in these experiments was set to 1/70000 > > > sec. > > > > > > If motion is smooth and continous there will be a smear of length l > > > equal to the distance the bullet travels in 1/70000 of a second. However > > > motion is not continous so > > > the bullet image appears with no smear at either of it's ends, as if it > > > were just a levitated object. > > > > > > Boisvert, who is now 92 years old, developed these photographic > > > techniques long ago, and I remember seeing these pictures back in the > > > 50's when I was a kid. > > > > > > Boisert has determined that the unviversal discontinuity duration is > > > 1/64000 sec. > > > > > > Jim > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 07:57:43 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA04799; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 07:56:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 07:56:30 -0800 Message-Id: <199911091556.KAA23712 fh105.infi.net> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: Subject: Re: 1/64,000 sec... is SLOW Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:51:07 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"B9Xh_.0.rA1.jG4Au" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31544 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim, for your analysis: Opinion: o-pin-ion; n., 1. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof. 2. A prevailing view. Meaning: It might be true, it might not. It is what a person thinks. Capice? One of my opinions: Why the hell do we pay scientists to "figure out" the universe by writing some numbers and crap down on a piece of paper? That ain't science my friend. That is supposed to come AFTER an experiment is done, to help our limited minds understand whats going on. This "theory of everything" the great(?) scientists are working on is a wonderful case of pseudo-science. We cannot know what the theory of everything is until we have performed every possible experiment under every possible condition. That's my opinion. --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 08:31:45 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA16235; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:27:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:27:13 -0800 Message-ID: <38285441.5425 ca-ois.com> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 09:05:05 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 1/64,000 sec... is SLOW References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Br1cx2.0.Yz3.Wj4Au" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31545 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > Dear Vo and Jim. > See notes in text. AND: I am NOT here to participate in an > argument. > Fine, don't argue with me then. > > Please define the camera and we can answer why you see a nice > clear picture. The camera is a normal SLR with the shutter left open during the experiment. A light flash of duration .0000142 sec (1/70000) illuminates a bullet passing in front of the lens. During this interval, if motion were continuous, the bullet should have moved .45 cm, an appreciable portion of it's own length. If this sort of theorized continuous motion through an infinite number of contiguous points in space were actually taking place, the bullet in the resulting developed photograph would appear lengthened or streaked by the length .45 cm. Instead it appears perfectly immobilized and the picture shows that the bullet has not moved at all during the interval 1/70000 sec. > Most people who use high speed imaging do not publish smeared > pictures. They are, usually, justly proud of a clean shot. Irrelevant to the issue. > > You should study the state of the art in high speed cameras. > Try the journal "Information Display" which is the journal for > SID, Society for Information Display. After you have spoken to some > writers and contributing writers on high speed imaging, nd after you have > read some of the articles on the topic and have seen some conference > proceeding contributions... THEN we can discuss the method of making the > image and what it means. This attempt at an argument from authority fails since it fails to cite anything specific from any specific authoritative reference book or site. In fact it is rather insulting in a similar way that one could say Gallileo was insulted by the Pope, whom I'm sure reccomended that Galileo study all the papyrii or clay tablets published by Ptolemaic Astronomers before he challenged the idea that all the planets revolve around the earth. > > > Explain the lack of edge smearing then, if the bullet is not actually at > > the moment of being phtographed, standing still. The fact that faster > > objects take longer quantum jumps and are more difficult to catch on > > film except with better technology, is irrelevant to whether or not this > > experiment showsa what it appears to show. > > > See above. YOU see the above. > > > > Do you wish to discuss the experiment as presented or some other > > experiment? > > The use of a drum camera is NOT an experiment. If you are not up to discussing experiments, what are you doing on vortex, and why are you bringing up procedures that by your own estimation, are NOT experiments? The use of a drum camera can be deemed an experiment if the result of the procedure is not known beforehand. > It is a method of > high speed imaging. So what? If drum cameras could capture fast moving objects exposed to flashes of light only one BILLIONTH of a second long, and no streaking appeared, this only proves that one is moving in the wrong direction in his attempt to figure out how long the apparent period of immobility is. Apparently, Boisvert determined that exposures longer than 1/64000 of a second resulted in streaks in the bullet image. Below is the experiment, described as simply and accurately as I can. What part of this explanation do you not understand? =============>=========*/======>==================== -----| ^-- + 400 Vdc_| strobe | | | light | ----- --- - Basically the idea is to trigger a strobonar flashlamp by striking it's bared grounding wire with a bullet that you are going to subsequently photograph. The bullet, passing from left to right in the above asciigraph strikes the bared grounding wire causing the grounding wire to strke a grounding post, which results in a single flash of the strobe. The strobonar flash duration in these experiments was set to 1/70000 sec. If motion is smooth and continous there will be a smear of length l equal to the distance the bullet travels in 1/70000 of a second. However motion is not continous so the bullet image appears with no smear at either of it's ends, as if it were just a levitated object. JO From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 08:49:29 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA24085; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:46:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:46:34 -0800 Sender: jack mail3.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <38284888.7BB8D381 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 16:15:04 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: hheffner mtaonline.net Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity References: <3827C5A0.4C8F@ca-ois.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="y" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="y" Resent-Message-ID: <"9_eHz.0.Fu5.g_4Au" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31546 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: ***{I never said "existence" is continuous. What I said was that motion is continuous. --MJ}*** Jim O. wrote: Good, now we're getting somwhere. I'll take the opposite position. Motion is NOT continuous. I was wondering when we would get down to to the testable statements of alleged fact. Mitchell Jones wrote: ***{Pure sophistry. The statement of [Zeno's] "paradox" is intended to prompt the listener to visualize continuous motion as if it is an infinite series of stops and starts. We are supposed to imagine that the tortoise has a lead of x, then that he has a lead of x/10, then that he has a lead of x/100, then that he has a lead of x/1000, then that he has a lead of x/10000, and so on, and we are supposed to be so dumb that we confuse the constant time it will take us to imagine each step with the rapidly decreasing time it will take Achilles to move through those steps. In other words, we are supposed to not recognize that the total amount of time required for Achilles to move through a step will be proportional to the distance from him to the tortoise at the instant before the step began. If we denote the time required for Achilles to traverse the distance x by i, then the total time, t, required for him to catch the tortoise will be the sum of an infinite series. That is: t = i + i/10 + i/100 + ... = i(1 + 1/10 + 1/100 + ...) = i(1.111...) Thus if it takes Achilles 1 second to traverse the distance x, then it will take him 1.111... sec to catch the tortoise. The series is infinite, but it has a finite sum. Hi Jim and Mitchell, "Is motion quantized?" brings the issue to experiment. http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Homepage.html, Boisvert's Discovery of the Discontinuity of Motion Homepage, presents experimental evidence that motion is quantized. I wonder if Scott would turn his critical eye on this. Quoting from Jim's post: "=============>=========*/======>==================== -----| ^-- + 400 Vdc_| strobe | | | light | ----- --- - The idea is to trigger a strobonar flashlamp by striking it's bared grounding wire with a bullet that you are going to subsequently photograph. The bullet, passing from left to right in the above asciigraph strikes the bared grounding wire causing the grounding wire to strke a grounding post, which results in a single flash of the strobe. The strobonar flash duration in these experiments was set to 1/70000 sec. If motion is smooth and continous there will be a smear of length l equal to the distance the bullet travels in 1/70000 of a second (about .48 inches). However motion is not continous so the bullet image appears with no smear at either of it's ends, as if it were just a levitated object. " I also hope that Jim responds to Mitchell's math above. Each year, in my Physics classes, we repeated the experiment where Galileo showed that the distance, d, which a ball rolls down an inclined plane, is linearly proportional to the square of the time. That is, d = kt^2. I think that there is enough experimental evidence to encourage (Horace?) developing a quantized dynamics. Who knows where this will lead. In review, so far Horace has developed the following kinematics: "{Qd} = quantum of distance (D2) {Qt} = quantum of time (D3) {Qv} = {Qd}/{Qt} = quantum of velocity (D4) ... so since velocity v = d/t is quantized, there exists {Qv} such that: {Qv} {Qt} = N1 * {Qd}, N1>0 is integer (D9) {Qv} = N1 {Qd}/{Qt} = N1 c (D9a) seeming to imply that during each quantum of time everything in motion moves either not at all, or moves exactly at c or, if feasible, in multiples of c! However, to move less than c, say at 0.9 C, we can conclude there is about a 0.1 probability of no motion per each quantum of time advancement. Motion is thus in staggered jumps ..." Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 09:13:59 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA00507; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:10:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:10:01 -0800 Message-ID: <38285FE2.42DD ca-ois.com> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 09:54:42 -0800 From: Jim Ostrowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Discontinuity of motion experiment References: <008e01bf28ae$3daafda0$d4441d26 fjsparber> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nCQwa.0.r7.eL5Au" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31547 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > > >Frederick Sparber wrote: > >> > >> Something to while away the time while the Liberal Arts Level > >> Science discussions are flooding Vortex-L :-) > >> > > > >Yeah yeah.... Well here's an experiment for you Frederick. Just so you > >know this isn't all just talk. > > > >http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/PDM.html#PD Moment > > > > > >The discussion of the "principle" of discontinuity (of atomic motion) > >having to do with > >the above experiment can be found at: > > > >http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/Setup1.html#Setup No. 1 > > > >Below is a gif of one of the experimental setups. > > > >Jim Ostrowski > > > >Attachment converted: HD4000:ATMOMXP.GIF (GIFf/JVWR) (000344B0) > > ***{Anything with mass has inertia, including thread. Result: if a weight > is hung from a thread and a bullet is fired through the thread, time is > required for the displacement of the thread to propagate away from the > point where the bullet cut through it. So what? --MJ}*** Both thread and bullet were given an ample amount of time (1/70000 second...a lonnnng time, according to John Schnurer) to demonstrate how they are both moving through an infinite number of contiguous points in space continuously during that interval. As the photo demonstrates, the part of the thread coming up from the bottom and leaning to the right should be moving at approximately the same velocity as the bullet is, beacuse in order for that part of the thread to get out of the bullet's way it must move at least as fast as the bullet, if not faster. Instead, Mitchell, we see both the thread and bullet immobilized for at least 1/70000 sec. If the bullet and thread were actually moving through an infinite number of contiguous points in space during that interval, both would be smeared by the factor of l times the distance the bullet moved during that interval, .45 cm. Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 11:54:25 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA06835; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 11:50:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 11:50:32 -0800 From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: Curl free magnetic vector potential waves Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:55:56 -0500 Message-ID: <01bf2aec$6fc03860$0c6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"uuJdq2.0.eg1.8i7Au" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31548 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott wrote: >Wait a minute. There certainly is a longitudinal force on the electrons in >a xfmr 2ndary but it's not Ampere's controversial longitudinal force, it's >a simple electric field force caused by the dA/dt. The expression E = >-dA/dt means that there is an electric field that exists along the length >of the 2ndary conductors. It is this field that creates the open-circuit >voltage in the 2ndary and it is also this field that makes the electrons in >the 2ndary move when a load is placed on the xfmr. - Right, and isn't it fascinating that these voltages exist along a conductor but do not cause a current flow if the external portion of the circuit is open. It is almost as if the dA/dT redefines the meaning of a zero potential for that portion of the wire. It is also interesting to consider the distribution of induced voltage along the length of a single transformer turn. The controversial portion is caused by dA/dX, changes in A along the length of the wire, which causes forces on the individual electrons as they move along the wire. I suppose that this could also be considered as an electric force. In any case, what I have measured is a net force along a section of wire parallel to the direction of current flow. Such forces are very real and measurable, but the possibility of such forces is often denied since the Lorentz force law does not include them. The Lorentz force law is simply incomplete. - George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 12:56:27 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA29695; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:48:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:48:38 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3827C5A0.4C8F ca-ois.com> References: Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:44:06 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity Resent-Message-ID: <"PfGga.0.vF7.cY8Au" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31549 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell Jones wrote: >> >> >> Jim Ostrowski wrote: > > (snip) > > if one happens to >> >believe in the idea that "something may come into existence out of >> >nothing and that something can vanish into nothing" by means of, say >> >"magic" (which is merely technology that he does not understand - The >> >Clarke Principle-) then that person is not allowed to believe in the >> >existence of an external reality. Is this correct? >> >> ***{I never said anything relating the principle of continuity to the >> structure of human belief. What I said was that if the principle of >> continuity is false, or may be false, then the structure of human >> *knowledge* collapses > >Let me be the first to inform you that indeed, your "principle" of >contunuity IS NOT a principle. A principle is the statement of an >observed fact of physics or nature, that has experimental validity, and >the theory that motion is continuous, has been in fact, invalidated by >the results of experiment. ***{I have already responded to that, in vast detail. When I posted those comments, you snipped them out of your reply and ignored them. And now you are proceeding as if I said nothing on the subject. The implication: I might as well be talking to a fence post. --MJ}*** > >Does this mean that things can come into existence out of "nothing" or >conversely vanish into "nothing"? > >We'll see..... > >> By "knowledge," I mean beliefs that have been >> arrived at by means of reason. It is only reason-based beliefs--i.e., >> knowledge--that require the use of the principle of continuity. Nothing >> stops you, or anyone, from affirming a belief while denying the validity of >> the intellectual tools by which that belief might be rationally acquired. >> People do it all the time. --Mitchell Jones}*** >> > >If one thinks the "intellectual tool" (some alleged "principle") is >false, and can >can demonstrate that it in fact IS false, then a belief based on the >result of that experiment then becomes "knowledge" in controversion of >the "intellectual tool". ***{If, if, if. The fact is, you have "demonstrated" exactly diddley squat. All you do is insert vacuous rhetoric here and there within my comments, while ignoring the substance of the arguments. --MJ}*** > >Achilles CAN catch the tortoise, no matter what Zeno "reasoned" out of >his imagination. ***{You aren't talking to Zeno. --MJ}*** > >Motion Is NOT continuous, no matter what ramifications this may have as >regarding your sanity. If your whole structure of knowledge and belief >come crashing down to ruin and you are left muttering to yourself in the >dark, drooling and cursing, it will not change the observed facts one >bit. ***{The tone of your comments in this post has been intensely emotional, and the above paragraph is downright insulting. The subject of my remarks has not been sanity, but knowledge--that is, reason-based belief--and what I have endeavored to convey has been simply that reason based belief requires the premise that things cannot leap into existence out of nothing or vanish into nothing. Without it, one has no basis for believing in the existence of anything, including oneself. --MJ}*** > > > >> >If existence as we "know" it is continuous >> >> ***{I never said "existence" is continuous. What I said was that motion is >> continuous. --MJ}*** >> > >Good, now we're getting somwhere. I'll take the opposite position. >Motion is NOT continuous. I was wondering when we would get down to to >the testable statements of alleged fact. ***{Hello! Is anybody there? I repeat: *I never said "existence" is continuous.* I have been saying that *motion* is continuous all along. Therefore "we" aren't getting anywhere. I am where I have been from the beginning. --MJ}*** > > > , how does one billiard ball >> >transfer information about it's momentum and direction to the other >> >billiard ball? >> >> ***{Collisions transfer energy, not information. > >They transfer both. When the energy from the first billiard ball is >transfeered to the second it simultaneously transmits information. If >that were not so, then one could not >predict where either ball will go, which both physicists can do in >theory, and good "pool dharks" can do in practice. ***{This is absurd. I repeat: collisions transfer energy, not information. Whether information is obtained about a collision depends on the presence of an observer or a measuring device. Why are you wasting my time with crap like this? --MJ}*** > >>We are talking physics here, not data processing. --MJ}*** > > The physics of billiards involves data processing, the target ball >proceeses the data imparted to it from the source ball, and responds >uniquely to that information in a predictable way, just like your >computer responds uniquely and predictably to magnetic influences from >your spinning hard disk. ***{This is pointless. You ignore the substance of my reasoning, and attempt instead to argue about distinctions that are so elementary that I have exactly *zero* interest in talking about them. --MJ}*** > >> >Let's say there is what I call Ostrowski's theorem (that's OstroWski >> >with a W -double you- for those of you who need to adjust the focus >> >control on their monitors...) which states the following: >> > >> >1. All data transfer is the result of pre-coding. >> > >> >2. There is no data that can be transferred within a time frame = 0. >> >> ***{As noted above, collisions transfer energy, not information. > >False. they transfer both. ***{See previous comment. --MJ}*** > >> However, >> in either case, "transfer" involves motion, which in turn requires the >> passage of time. Indeed, non-transfer--merely sitting in one place--also >> requires the passage of time. [The notion of time arises from the practice >> of using regular motions--e.g., the motion of a pendulum, or of the hands >> of a carefully designed, clock, etc.--as standards of comparison against >> the (mostly) irregular motions that we encounter in the natural >> environment. Hence if all motion ceases, time ceases as well.] --Mitchell >> Jones}*** > >Only if ALL motion ceases simultaneously, which it probably does >"usually". However, I would bet that this quality could be altered with >the appropriate technology or a rarely occasional combination of natural >forces.. ***{It is logically impossible for all motion to cease simultaneously. When we say, for example, that "the car stopped moving," we have in mind the assumption that motion continued elsewhere. To convey the point, let me ask a question: how do you know that, between reading the "how" and the "do" in this sentence, the universe didn't freeze for a billion years? The answer: that is simply not what "time" means. "Time" is just a background of regular motion--i.e., of "clocks"--against which we measure the mostly irregular motions in the environment. Thus if all motion ceases throughout the universe, then time ceases as well. That means no time passes while the universe is frozen--not a billion years, or one year, or even a femtosecond. And that, in turn, means that the universe as a whole never stops moving. It can't, by definition. (To say "John is always moving" means exactly the same thing as saying "The time when John is not moving equals zero.") --Mitchell Jones}*** > >> >> >The only way I could I could agree that the universe were in a >> >continuous state of existence (as I understand the meaning of the word >> >"existence") is if the above theorem could be proven false. >> >> ***{Nobody in his right mind would deny that motion requires the passage of >> time, but that is irrelevant. The issue is whether motion is >> continuous--i.e., whether it is possible for objects to vanish from one >> location and reappear somewhere else. > >That is the exact point of the experiments I referred to earlier. ***{So you say. I read the experiment, and see nothing remarkable about it. --MJ}*** > >If I could prove that motion is not continuous then I suppose your whole >structure of reality would crumble to the point where you wouldn't know >your ass from your elbow. >But that would be YOOR PROBLEM, not mine. ***{Duh! --MJ}*** > > >> You wouldn't be much more off topic >> if you demanded that I prove that 2 + 2 = 5. --MJ}*** >> > >We've settled onm what the topic is haven't we? > >As in: You allege that motion is continuous, and I allege that it is >not. > >I say it is not based on the results of experiments by Wilfrid Boisvert, >which you may read about by clicking below, should you so choose to >inform yourself, and not remain ignorant (which is something I wouldn't >bet on, this information was posted yesterday): > >http://www.islandnet.com/~gds/PDM.html#PD > >Here is the short version for those having attention span deficits (with >the exception of John Schnurer who I composed this for originally, who >suffers only from having an outmoded computer, which cannot access the >web, apparently): > >-----begin copy----- > > =============>=========*/======>==================== > -----| ^-- > + 400 Vdc_| strobe | | > | light | ----- > --- > - > > The idea is to trigger a strobonar flashlamp by striking it's >bared grounding wire with a bullet that you are going to subsequently >photograph. The bullet, passing from left to right in the above >asciigraph strikes the bared grounding wire causing the grounding wire >to strke a grounding post, which results in a single flash of the >strobe. > >The strobonar flash duration in these experiments was set to 1/70000 >sec. > > If motion is smooth and continous there will be a smear of length l >equal to the distance the bullet travels in 1/70000 of a second (about >.48 inches). ***{Without knowing details about the camera, the shutter speed, and the type of film used, there is nothing about this result that is even surprising. Worse, even if it *were* surprising, it would still have *nothing whatsoever* to do with whether motion is discontinuous, because there are literally *tons* of data collected from measurements of motion over intervals of less than 1/70,000th of a second, sitting in universities and corporationa around the world. The very idea that any quantum discontinuities which might exist could be detected by measurements over time intervals this large is simply ludicrous. The time required for an electron to make one revolution around a hydrogen atom is 10^-16 seconds, for Christ's sake! That's 142.86 *billion* revolutions every 70,000th of a second, and yet here you are telling me that a bullet, with the incomprehensibly vast number of electrons that it contains, winks into and out of existence with a half-cycle time of less than a 70,000th of a second! Get real! These kinds of arguments do not defend "quantum mechanics," for the simple and sufficient reason that no one who knows anything about this issue would ever in his wildest imaginings attempt to advance the position by citing an example of this kind. As for the notion of refuting the principle of continuity with an experiment, I dealt with that at length in an earlier message, and you ignored the substance of that reasoning as surely as if I had said nothing on the subject at all. For the benefit of any newbies who may not have seen that post, the point was this: the principle of continuity--that no thing may come into existence out of nothing or vanish into nothing--is a fundamental tool by which we acquire knowledge. If it may be false, then all of our sensations may be leaping into existence out of nothing--which means: the various things which we posit as sources of our sensations may not exist--which means: the external world, our bodies, our memories, our faculties of imagination, our subsconscious minds, and on and on, may not exist at all. That means there is *no possibility whatever* that the principle of continuity could ever be overturned by any experiment, however elegant, because if the principle of continuity were invalid, we would have no basis for believing that the experiment ever happened! For, in that case, the sensations which we thought were coming to us from the experiment might have been simply leaping into existence out of nothing! Simply put: you can't do an experiment to determine whether knowledge is possible, because the existence of the experiment would, itself, be knowledge, regardless of the outcome. The possibility of knowledge is simply a fact, and everything which that fact presupposes, including the validity of the principle of continuity, is also a fact. Bottom line: since "quantum mechanics" is based on the claim that motion in the microcosm is discontinuous, and since the principle of the continuity of motion is a bedrock metaphysical fact, foundational to the possibility of knowledge itself, quantum mechanics is wrong. Period. *There aren't any ifs, ands, or buts about it.* --Mitchell Jones}*** > >However motion is not continous so the bullet image appears with no >smear at either of it's ends, as if it were just a levitated object. > >------end copy-------- > >Has this experimental result collapsed your structure of reality yet? > >If it has, that's really too bad .... hope you get well soon, Mitchell! > >Jim O - S - T - R - O - W - S - K - I > >_Not_ Ostrowsky > >jeez.....(sigh) ***{Jim, I don't enjoy these kinds of exchanges. There is no way to deal with you in a polite manner, because in cases where you do not have the upper hand, your attitude is one of belligerence and provocation. Under those circumstances you seem utterly unable to get away from personal comments and focus on substantive issues. I don't want to put you back in my killfile, because there are times when you say interesting and insightful stuff. On the other hand, I am for the time being tired of interacting with you directly, because of the associated unpleasantness. Therefore, why don't we simply agree to disagree about this matter, and move on? Perhaps after some time is passed, we can take up the cudgels again, hopefully a bit more politely than has been the case here. --MJ}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 12:59:25 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA31996; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:53:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:53:19 -0800 Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:53:02 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: Scott Little Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Curl free magnetic vector potential waves In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991108173926.01830914 mail.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"1kRZh2.0.rp7.-c8Au" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31550 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott The integral solutions to Maxwell's equations describe the behavior you are talking about. The tensor formulation of the joint electric and magnetic EM field shows that whether you see an electric or magnetic field depends on the particular motion frame you are in. It is all relativity again. You see a conductor moving through a magnetic field if you observe a generator in your lab, but an electron in the conductor only sees an electric field pushing it along. The A field and the B field are related through a differential equation, the curl, and mathematically they are equivalent description of the EM fields, along with the motion frame of reference. The fact that the B-field is contained inside the toroidal core, and doesn't actually touch the conductor, doesn't matter, as long as the wire loop surrounds the field, and the plane of the loop intersects the changing magnetic field. The electrons in the wire still only see an electric field. Hank On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Scott Little wrote: > At 03:23 PM 11/8/99 -0800, you wrote: > >Scott > > The B-Field flux is through the loop which goes through > >the center of the toroid, so it is no wonder that a voltage > >appears across the loops terminals, and if connected a current > >will flow. This is how you make toroidal transformers! > > Agreed. It's Lenz's law. The point I was making is that the B in the core > never "touches" the electrons in the secondary loop, thus we cannot use the > B in the core to really understand HOW the electrons in the secondary are > forced to move. As I see it, we are forced to accept that the A > (specifically the dA/dt) can create an E field and that is what actually > MAKES the electrons move. > > I come at this from the study of generators, where you usually think about > electrons being forced to move because conductors are cutting through flux > lines. This xfmr thing seems at first fundamentally different but now I > think it's the "real" mechanism and the flux-cutting business is just an > equivalent viewpoint that only works when the conductors are immersed in > the magnetic field. > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 13:01:14 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02136; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:59:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:59:06 -0800 From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: 1/64,000 sec... is SLOW Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:03:53 -0500 Message-ID: <01bf2af5$ede7d190$0c6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"C2H0q3.0.IX.Oi8Au" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31551 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jim, > The strobonar flash duration in these experiments was set to 1/70000 > sec. > > If motion is smooth and continous there will be a smear of length l > equal to the distance the bullet travels in 1/70000 of a second. >However > motion is not continous so > the bullet image appears with no smear at either of it's ends, as if it > were just a levitated object. - You will need an accurate method of actually measuring the intensity with time of the strobe flash if you want to make a convincing case for further examination. This timescale for quantization is far too slow to have escaped detection. George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 13:37:47 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA14137; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:34:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:34:16 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19991109163400.00799e80 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 16:34:00 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: 1/64,000 sec... is SLOW In-Reply-To: <01bf2af5$ede7d190$0c6cd626 george.varisys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"rkQ9N2.0.fS3.ND9Au" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31552 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: George Holz wrote: >You will need an accurate method of actually measuring the intensity >with time of the strobe flash . . . The shape of the flash energy curve may also be a factor. The pulse may last 1/70,000 of a second, but it may have a point of peak intensity which is much shorter, and perhaps the film only registers that point. That's speculation, but anyway, I think this is where to look for artifacts. Fred Meyer told me about similar problems with laser pulses with uneven energy distribution and "ragged edges," which screwed up inertial plasma fusion experiments. This is an interesting experiment though, with surprising results. I agree it seems unlikely that quanta on this timescale would not have been detected in other experiments. This is a long time on the scale other people work with. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 13:55:29 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA23807; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:52:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:52:10 -0800 Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:56:32 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Mitchell Jones cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Principle of Continuity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"VhnDB1.0.np5.9U9Au" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31553 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Jim, How does the bullet know when to start and stop so as to be in place exactly when the flash lamp is on? What is the tube type and model number on the Strobonar [sp?]... and where are they located, please? Out of curiousity I am going to ask them how and by which method they adjust 'shutter' or exposure time. How far are we from the gun and what type of bullet and load and powder,? Please. If the bullet 'goes in and out' of existance how does it know not to be gone when the strobe is on? If stuff blinks in and out how come a tuning for sounds smooth... instead of all chopped up? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 16:26:54 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA09767; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:25:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:25:24 -0800 Message-ID: <3828BB65.311475ED verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 02:25:09 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,tr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Big electron? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oitVM.0.SO2.qjBAu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31554 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I have a (simple?) question. On the recent paper of M.Ozer (http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9911011) On the Possibility of Building a Black Hole for Electrons in the Laboratory, it is described the experiment to realize the "possibility". On this setup, a sphere (hollow or not is not specified) is charged to a positive 455 kV, and electrons are injected in to the sphere. No details are given. Ok. I am not pursuing black holes now, but have a simple question. If you have a spherical capacitor, I mean two metallic spheres, one inside of other. If you charge sphere symmetrically to the earth, i.e. -1000V outside/ +1000V inside, what would the whole system act to outside? For example the sphere would be pulled by an external +charges? or it would be neutral? Note: Charging the inner sphere would not pose a problem, as sucking electrons with a isolated wire connected to the innder electrode trough a hole seems pausible. than, after charged, pull the wire and patch the hole on the outer sphere, in order to obta in an perfect spherical capacitor. Next step is throwing equal number some electrons to the outer sphere. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 16:50:19 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA15698; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:47:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:47:42 -0800 Message-ID: <19991110004738.250.rocketmail web1305.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:47:38 -0800 (PST) From: John Logajan Subject: Re: Big electron? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"NXsQd1.0.Cr3.k2CAu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31555 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: hamdi ucar wrote: > If you have a spherical capacitor, I mean two > metallic spheres, one inside of other. If you charge > sphere symmetrically to the earth, i.e. -1000V > outside/ +1000V inside, what would the whole system > act to outside? For example the sphere would be > pulled by an external +charges? or it would be > neutral? Is guessing allowed? If so, I'd say neutral. Sure the outer surface is closer to outside objects, but it is also of greater surface area than the inner sphere, yet both have the same charge. Therefore the further but denser charge on the inner sphere cancels the closer but sparser charge on the outer sphere at all points external to the sphere. Or so I'd guess. ===== -- - John Logajan 4234 Hamline Ave, Arden Hills, MN 55112 - jlogajan yahoo.com 651-633-8918 - I don't endorse any commercial message that may appear below. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Nov 9 18:58:28 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA14366; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:56:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:56:19 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Message-ID: <0.79d362f9.255a38cb aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 21:56:11 EST Subject: Re: H2K: Calibration with H2 fill To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 56 Resent-Message-ID: <"KcUOB.0.OW3.JxDAu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31556 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince, Welcome back again. It's been kind of slow here lately on the experimental side without you. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 06:31:22 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA31947; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 06:30:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 06:30:30 -0800 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:35:22 -0600 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas Malloy Subject: [svpvril] Cold fusion, alternative energy & politics Resent-Message-ID: <"VK5JY2.0.5p7.66OAu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31557 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Cold fusion & alternative energy > > -> SNETNEWS Mailing List > > ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- >Date sent: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 00:38:51 -0500 >Send reply to: Conspiracy Theory Research List >From: Dave >Subject: [CTRL] Cold fusion & alternative energy >To: CTRL LISTSERV.AOL.COM > >Dave Hartley > >http://www.Asheville-Computer.com http://www.ioa.com/~davehart > > -----Original Message----- >From: James Maberry [mailto:FBliss prodigy.net] >Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 1:03 PM > > I discovered succesful work on cold fussion has occured at Los Alamos. >The following url (nde.esa.lanl.gov) used to take people to the site >where the setup and results where discussed. This particular experiment >sought not to measure heat given off greater than energy input but >helium given off via a nuclear reaction at room temperature. Scanning >electron micrographs in previous similar reactions revealed small pits >in the deuterated palladium with curled out edges and ejecta where noted >in the reaction vessel. For these to have occured in such a short period >of time (corrosion was considered to have been an impossible >explanation) bending the mtal as observed could have only occured by one >way; Nuclear forces exerted in a very small area. I am trained in >nuclear power plant operations (ex engine room supervisor on fast boats >and boomers) and have studied this field extensively. Don't accept the >disinformation being put out. Russian palladium export problems are not >the only reason for the shyrocketing prices. Palladium should be at >half the price of platinum due to consumption rates and the wide area of >substitution where palladium is approximately 50% efficient in the place >of platinum. Los Alamos blocked this site and I have made requests for >the previously public data to no avail. The experiment on helium >generation by electrolysis of deuterated palladium was conducted by >Claytor, Jackson and Tuggle. > >I have reviewed also U.S. patent law and found that the head of the >patent office does have the legal right to deny a patent if it will >result in what he determines to be excessive economic disturbances. The >person applying for such a patent can be charged with a crime if he >tries to apply with another country after the process or invention has >been declared to be injurious to the U.S. economy. > >Knowing the law and applying elsewhere allows a person financial >opportunity. I am a biochemist with a background in reactor kinetics >and an extreme interest in superconductors, and very soon I will return >to research on a room temperature organic superconductor. If I am ever >succesful I wont consider patenting here. I will obtain backing from >individuals easily, to bring this to market rapidly outside of the U.S. >The opportunity for an American Company will be lost because of the >paranoid patent laws. James Maberry > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Steve Wingate > >California Director >SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL > >Anomalous Images and UFO Files >http://www.anomalous-images.com > >-> Send "subscribe snetnews " to majordomo world.std.com >-> Posted by: "Steve Wingate" >-- >Regards, >Dale Pond >Delta Spectrum Research >http://www.SVPvril.com >Sympathetic Vibratory Physics >Sacred Science - Sacred Life >SVP Discussion Forum: >http://www.egroups.com/list/svpvril/ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Get your FREE SVP catalog of 300 books, pamphlets & videos. Email your >snail mail address to info svpvril.com. > >-- Talk to your group with your own voice! >-- http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=svpvril&m=1 > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 06:52:03 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA06751; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 06:51:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 06:51:06 -0800 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:55:59 -0600 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991108132525.007a7d30 pop.mindspring.com> References: <19991108173219.14906.rocketmail web1303.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas Malloy Subject: Re: transmutation Resent-Message-ID: <"WE_YA.0.Jf1.PPOAu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31558 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Do any of you Vortexians speak French? I came across a website which appears to be reporting on the production of gold. I don't speak French, but I can sort of follow what is going on. What I want to know is the recipe. http://wwwusers.imaginet.fr/~sft/france/1998.htm Thomas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 07:27:31 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA17730; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:24:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:24:42 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38281CB9.ED87CA58 ihug.co.nz> References: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:20:27 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: fields...or not Resent-Message-ID: <"eQoP22.0.yK4.wuOAu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31559 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Berry said: >The problem here is that to you only solid hard matter is real, and fields are >not. ***{This is a misunderstanding. A pillow is not "hard solid matter," and yet if a baseball hits a pillow, its state of motion will be altered. Likewise, the earth's atmosphere is not "hard, solid matter," and yet when a meteor strikes the atmosphere, its motion is affected. I have never denied such facts. My actual position is that when an entity's state of motion is altered, it is because the entity either struck or was struck by another entity. I make no claims about the degree of "hardness" or "softness" of the objects in question, since that obviously varies from situation to situation. One thing I do claim, however, is that entities have parts. For example, an old fashioned pillow is composed of feathers; the feathers are composed of molecules; the molecules are composed of atoms; the atoms are composed of subatomic particles (protons, electrons, neutrons, etc.); and so on. This means that at each specific location where a force is exerted, there will be a localized entity to exert that force, even if it is part of a larger entity which, in a more global sense, can also be said to be exerting that force. Thus when you say "The car hit the bug," you can also say "The right front headlight of the car hit the bug," or "The lower left quadrant of the right front headlight hit the bug," etc. Why is this so? Because if we suppose that it is *not* so, the structure of human knowledge collapses. For, in that case, we destroy our ability to make use of our sensory input. At any given moment, a person is receiving an incomprehensibly vast amount of sensory input--from his eyes, ears, memory, imagination, subsconscious, skin, olfactory organs, organs of taste, etc.--and is in the position of having to focus his thought processes on specific, tiny parts of that enormous mass of input, and infer the nature of the specific external entities which are giving rise to that input. If he treats "out there" as one vast entity without parts--e.g., as a "continuous field"--he can't do that. For, in that case, there may not *be* any parts "out there" which match up with the sensations "in here." Bottom line: if entities without parts can exist, then we have no basis for believing in the existence of anything, including ourselves. --Mitchell Jones}*** >"it hit the field" is a complete answer if you treat the field as an entity, >personally I don't think there is any hard solid matter, I think it is all >field. ***{As I indicated to Scott, I don't have a problem with the notion that fields exist, or that a field is an entity. What I object to is the notion that a field--or any entity--does not have parts. That is where the difficulties arise. Once you grant the possibility of entities without parts, you introduce the notion that all of your sensations are merely the effects of an entity without parts--a "continuous field," if you will--and in the process you rip the foundations out from under the structure of human knowledge. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >I consider a field to be a type of "entity" or material... ***{So do I. --MJ}*** you seem to look at >it as the only real thing... > >I could take the reverse point of view and say that referring to a particle or >other thing without assigning it as being the effect of a field as being >non-responsive... ***{When I said it would be non-responsive to refuse to treat the field as a structure with parts, or words to that effect, my intent was to elicit a discussion of whether parts were required. Instead, Scott concluded that I was repeating myself, and absented himself from the discussion. But now, thankfully, you have taken up the cudgels in his place. :-) --MJ}*** > >it comes down to "what is real and fundamental to you, and is just an >abstraction?) > >I say fields are real, and matter is just an abstraction... >you say matter is real and fields are abstractions >or you could hold that both are real... ***{Fields, matter, energy, and the infinite zoo of microparticles of which they are composed are all real. All are entities, and all entities have parts--which means: that which exists is infinitely subdivisible. We live in a universe that is infinite in space, time, and scale, with no smallest particles, largest structures, or fastest motions--a universe which, not coincidentally, happens to be the only kind of universe in which knowledge is possible. (Aren't we lucky? :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 07:28:40 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA18605; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:27:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:27:35 -0800 Message-ID: <001401bf2b98$7f16fea0$958e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Encyclop=E6dia_Britannica__article_page?= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:27:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF2B55.659F0C80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"pOduA2.0.ZY4.cxOAu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31560 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF2B55.659F0C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit They finally got their free web site up and running. :-) http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/4/0,5716,108504,00.html#Article ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF2B55.659F0C80 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="=?iso-8859-1?Q?Encyclop=E6dia_Britannica__article_page.url?=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="=?iso-8859-1?Q?Encyclop=E6dia_Britannica__article_page.url?=" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=3Dhttp://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/4/0,5716,108504,00.ht= ml [InternetShortcut] URL=3Dhttp://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/4/0,5716,108504,00.html#A= rticle Modified=3D401F4A3B982BBF0167 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF2B55.659F0C80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 07:40:47 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA24346; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:38:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:38:58 -0800 Message-ID: <003301bf2b9a$170191c0$958e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: The Development of Fusion Weapons Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:38:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF2B56.EEB53CA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"AGh3n2.0.Ky5.I6PAu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31561 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF2B56.EEB53CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://search.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/8/0,5716,118838+11,00.html ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF2B56.EEB53CA0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="=?iso-8859-1?Q?Encyclop=E6dia_Britannica__article_page.url?=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="=?iso-8859-1?Q?Encyclop=E6dia_Britannica__article_page.url?=" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=3Dhttp://search.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/8/0,5716,118838+11= ,00.html [InternetShortcut] URL=3Dhttp://search.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/8/0,5716,118838+11,00.= html Modified=3D20F8B0BF992BBF010B ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF2B56.EEB53CA0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 07:41:45 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA25268; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:40:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:40:48 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.19991108132525.007a7d30 pop.mindspring.com> <19991108173219.14906.rocketmail web1303.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:36:22 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: transmutation Resent-Message-ID: <"64rUD3.0.hA6._7PAu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31562 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Do any of you Vortexians speak French? I came across a website which >appears to be reporting on the production of gold. I don't speak French, >but I can sort of follow what is going on. What I want to know is the >recipe. > >http://wwwusers.imaginet.fr/~sft/france/1998.htm > >Thomas ***{Buy yourself a French dictionary and do a word-by-word translation. You will be able to figure out most of the idioms and the grammar yourself, from context. (If you translate a lot of stuff this way, it is a great way to learn to read a language. Your pronounciation, of course, won't be worth a flip until you hear the spoken word, but for that purpose you can buy recorded material.) --MJ}*** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 07:54:08 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA30157; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:52:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:52:51 -0800 From: BigCatAny aol.com Message-ID: <0.50cc16e8.255aeec0 aol.com> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:52:32 EST Subject: Re: transmutation To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 41 Resent-Message-ID: <"9XyYC2.0.7N7.JJPAu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31563 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 11/10/99 7:41:39 AM Pacific Standard Time, mjones jump.net writes: << http://wwwusers.imaginet.fr/~sft/france/1998.htm >> too bad, i get a "You are not authorized to view this page" message. ah well, proably would have put me in a higher tax bracket anyway. hope someone else has better luck than i did. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 08:15:02 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA04714; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:11:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:11:36 -0800 Message-ID: <007d01bf2b9e$a4e8a380$958e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Fw: Re; H-Bomb Timeline Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:11:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"woAeV.0.W91.taPAu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31564 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Britannica Article on The Super states that the USSR exploded a 58 MEGATON device in October of 1961. Had that been October of 1957, the 1962 October Missile Crisis might have had a different ending. FJS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 08:16:05 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA05843; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:14:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:14:38 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991110112007.010503d0 inforamp.net> X-Sender: quinney inforamp.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:20:07 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Colin Quinney Subject: Re: transmutation In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.19991108132525.007a7d30 pop.mindspring.com> <19991108173219.14906.rocketmail web1303.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"OQSMl1.0.7R1.jdPAu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31565 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here's the lazy way-- Go here: You can either type in the foreign language phrases OR plug in the address of a foreign web page (URL) and it will go there, or to any of the other pages within that web site, and it will translate the following languages in either direction: English <===> French English <===> German English <===> Italian English <===> Portuguese English <===> Spanish. Best, Colin Quinney At 08:55 AM 11/10/99 -0600, you wrote: >Do any of you Vortexians speak French? I came across a website which >appears to be reporting on the production of gold. I don't speak French, >but I can sort of follow what is going on. What I want to know is the >recipe. > >http://wwwusers.imaginet.fr/~sft/france/1998.htm > >Thomas > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 09:00:30 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA12133; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:58:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:58:15 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:38:23 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Linearid Meteor Shower Resent-Message-ID: <"92xB-.0.Sz2.UGQAu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31566 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I read about an oddball comet awhile back which has a period of about 63,000 years and just recently whizzed through the solar system. If memory serves, Earth will be crossing its debris trail tonight, which should produce a shower of meteors (dubbed the "linearids" in the article I read) which will seem to radiate from the bowl of the Big Dipper. Since the period of the comet is so very long, not much is known about it, but with the earth is crossing its path right on its heels, the display could be spectacular. I wouldn't stay up for it, mind you, but it may be worth a glance. :-) --MJ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 09:29:58 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26078; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:17:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:17:15 -0800 Message-ID: <009a01bf2ba7$d0117100$958e1d26 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Charge-Density-Wave Conductors Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:17:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF2B64.BCEC7400" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"ltuQd1.0.ON6.QYQAu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31567 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF2B64.BCEC7400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here you go, Colin, Dielectric Constants of metals etc. FJS http://www.msc.cornell.edu/~robt/phystod.html ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF2B64.BCEC7400 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Charge-Density-Wave Conductors.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Charge-Density-Wave Conductors.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.msc.cornell.edu/~robt/phystod.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.msc.cornell.edu/~robt/phystod.html Modified=609D348AA72BBF014D ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF2B64.BCEC7400-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 11:09:06 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA27592; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:05:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:05:44 -0800 Message-ID: <001301bf2bad$447de0a0$f2101c3f w98sysrec> Reply-To: "doclewis" From: "doclewis" To: Subject: Re:fields...or not Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:56:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"Yj2pA.0.zk6.78SAu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31568 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Oops, that auto-complete thingy got me again. This post accidentally went to vortexb. Thanks Mitchell Jones for letting me know. I also dumped the HTML. Scott wrote > Got any better suggestions? My goal is to measure the propagation speed of > the electric field. Seems like I have to measure the time delay between > the turnon of a field generator and the arrival of the resulting field at a > field detector a known distance away. > Hi Scott, I'm wondering if it might not be possible to do an end run around the EM problem.What if you were to clone the FET antenna\detector, calibrate them and the experimental setup with the 2 detectors 180 degrees apart to have perfectly identical delay times to some type of test signal.Then for the tough part, place an RF source at the center of the setup along side the Coulomb field source and aim the RF at one of the detectors(Probably something in the microwave range would be most suitable so as to be able to beam the signal). Next devise a switching mechanism that can be tweaked to launch the signals from the two sources at precisely the same instant. You could confirm the simultaneity of the signal launch by monitoring this at a point a VERY short distance from the emitters. It seems to me that this would allow you to do the test as initially described, but also you would have a "foot race" of sorts between the two signals. You might be able to null any bleed from the RF signal (or any other spurious EM) by fiddling with mixing some out of phase signal from the second detector.I realize this is all easier said than done. Maintaining symmetry undoubtedly will be the goblin in this experiment regardless of it's final form. Good Luck, Randall Lewis doclewis gateway.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 11:37:44 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA04783; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:30:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:30:25 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991110132816.0183d9e4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:28:16 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Curl free magnetic vector potential waves In-Reply-To: <01bf2aec$6fc03860$0c6cd626 george.varisys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"udt9Z2.0.dA1.GVSAu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31570 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:55 PM 11/9/99 -0500, George Holz wrote: >Right, and isn't it fascinating that these voltages exist along a conductor >but do not cause a current flow if the external portion of the circuit is open. yes and no. It's fascinating to see a voltage drop occuring along a conductor with no current flowing thru it...but that's just what "induction" does to conductors. It's not fascinating (to me) that a current doesn't flow in an open circuit. >It is almost as if the dA/dT redefines the meaning of a zero potential for >that portion of the wire. Yes. It is also interesting to consider the distribution of >induced voltage along the length of a single transformer turn. >The controversial portion is caused by dA/dX, changes in A along >the length of the wire, which causes forces on the individual electrons as >they move along the wire. Most xfmrs operate at such low frequencies that dA/dx is negligible. It's the dA/dt that creates a wholesale E along the entire length of conductor encircling the changing flux that forces all the electrons in said conductor to move in unison. >I suppose that this could also be considered >as an electric force. In any case, what I have measured is a net force >along a section of wire parallel to the direction of current flow. Such >forces are very real and measurable, but the possibility of such forces >is often denied since the Lorentz force law does not include them. You skipped by me there. F = qE + vxB is the Lorentz force eqn. The first term is what explains the forces on the electrons in a xfmr secondary which act parallel to the direction of current flow. Where's the problem? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 11:42:21 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA08371; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:31:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:31:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:28:14 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Charge-Density-Wave Conductors In-Reply-To: <009a01bf2ba7$d0117100$958e1d26 fjsparber> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"G_V6i.0.f22.-VSAu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31569 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frederick Have you any references on the structura/chemical properties of Palladium Hydride/Deuteride? Hank On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Frederick Sparber wrote: > Here you go, Colin, Dielectric Constants of metals etc. > FJS > http://www.msc.cornell.edu/~robt/phystod.html > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 12:26:37 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA22405; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:24:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:24:28 -0800 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:30:42 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Linearid Meteor Shower In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"n5c8U.0._T5.xHTAu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31571 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On next Tuesday, I heard that Mercury will be crossing the sun at around 2 PM PST. It happens twice every hundred years. Hank On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Mitchell Jones wrote: > I read about an oddball comet awhile back which has a period of about > 63,000 years and just recently whizzed through the solar system. If memory > serves, Earth will be crossing its debris trail tonight, which should > produce a shower of meteors (dubbed the "linearids" in the article I read) > which will seem to radiate from the bowl of the Big Dipper. Since the > period of the comet is so very long, not much is known about it, but with > the earth is crossing its path right on its heels, the display could be > spectacular. I wouldn't stay up for it, mind you, but it may be worth a > glance. :-) --MJ > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 12:27:37 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA22435; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:24:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:24:30 -0800 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:21:57 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex Subject: Re: Big electron? In-Reply-To: <3828BB65.311475ED verisoft.com.tr> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"br5Qb.0.OU5.yHTAu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31572 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hamdi I would think that the inner -1000v sphere would be sheilded from the outside world, (presumed to be a ground plane), and only the +1000v sphere would interact with the environment. There would of course be a 2000v potential difference between the two spheres. Hank On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, hamdi ucar wrote: > Hi All, > > I have a (simple?) question. > > On the recent paper of M.Ozer (http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9911011) On the Possibility of Building a Black Hole for Electrons in the Laboratory, it is described the experiment to realize the "possibility". > > On this setup, a sphere (hollow or not is not specified) is charged to a positive 455 kV, and electrons are injected in to the sphere. No details are given. Ok. I am not pursuing black holes now, but have a simple question. > > If you have a spherical capacitor, I mean two metallic spheres, one inside of other. If you charge sphere symmetrically to the earth, i.e. -1000V outside/ +1000V inside, what would the whole system act to outside? For example the sphere would be pulled by an external +charges? or it would be neutral? > > Note: Charging the inner sphere would not pose a problem, as sucking electrons with a isolated wire connected to the innder electrode trough a hole seems pausible. than, after charged, pull the wire and patch the hole on the outer sphere, in order to ob tain an perfect spherical capacitor. Next step is throwing equal number some electrons to the outer sphere. > > > Regards, > > hamdi ucar > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 13:57:11 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA03042; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:52:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:52:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3829E844.A95ADDE4 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 23:48:52 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,tr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Big electron? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"utCvE2.0.Rl.4aUAu" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31573 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Hank, this is the case I favor! Now you have a big electron! or a positron according to the polarity of spheres. The point is that you need total zero charge to do this. Assuming the inner charge does not interact with the outside world, may the the "natural" electron do the same. Just an spherically symmetrical electrical field. But as the electron have also an magnetic moment, it is correct to expect some dynamic inside . Dynamic, like spinning is very useful if you dont have the full geometry symmetry. For example if you have an asymmetric field distribution, than you spin it fast enough (respect to atomic dynamics/interactions), it act to outside symmetrically (just like our sphere). Of course this hypothesis base that you can make something asymmetric rather than simple dipole. Even a dipole can produce asymmetric fields if you spin it, not just form it middle point. Anyway this would be a way to discover the mystery of the electron. Oh! Summary: - "Big electron" needs electrically asymmetric, but geometrically symmetric. - It may possible to create such a field, by just spinning an simple dipole unbalanced fashion. Spinning a dipole out of center of symmetry, can create two things at the same time: 1) electrically asymmetric field distribution. 2) this distribution would be geometrically symmetric respecting to axis of the rotation. - The key difference between a simply charged sphere and "big electron" is the big electron total charge is zero. You created an electrically asymmetric field, without breaking the symmetry (equality) of charges. Something deadly wrong here? :) Regards, hamdi ucar hank scudder wrote: > > Hamdi > I would think that the inner -1000v sphere would be > sheilded from the outside world, (presumed to be a ground plane), > and only the +1000v sphere would interact with the environment. > There would of course be a 2000v potential difference > between the two spheres. > > Hank > > If you have a spherical capacitor, I mean two metallic spheres, one inside of other. If you charge sphere symmetrically to the earth, i.e. -1000V outside/ +1000V inside, what would the whole system act to outside? For example the sphere would be pulle d by an external +charges? or it would be neutral? > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 15:14:58 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA28145; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:11:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:11:55 -0800 Message-Id: <199911102311.SAA22193 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Gene Mallove on Web Eadio Tonight! Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:06:37 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA28109 Resent-Message-ID: <"EnVw-3.0.Zt6.xkVAu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31574 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear All, Tonight you can hear Gene Mallove being interviewed about cold fusion� LIVE on the web, by Eliot Stein. The URL is: www.steinonline.com I go on 8:00 pm Eastern US time. Best wishes, Gene Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Director, New Energy Research Lab. (NERL) Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 15:34:02 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA06215; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:31:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:31:36 -0800 Message-Id: <199911102331.SAA26424 mercury.mv.net> Subject: OOPS! Make that 7:p.m. for Gene Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:26:21 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA06143 Resent-Message-ID: <"6Vo02.0.xW1.N1WAu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31575 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear All, Tonight you can hear Gene Mallove being interviewed about cold fusion� LIVE on the web, by Eliot Stein. The URL is: www.steinonline.com I go on 7:00 pm Eastern US time. The program will be archived on that site for subsequent listening. Best wishes, Gene Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Director, New Energy Research Lab. (NERL) Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 16:02:53 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA17095; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:00:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:00:03 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: transmutation Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:29:53 -0500 Message-ID: <19991110232953125.AAA283 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"KOhCn1.0.vA4.3SWAu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/31576 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Like I have told people earlier, gold production has been around for a while. What is even simpler though, is diamond production, and it has recently gone public. Fred Sparber touched on the technique about 6 or 8 months ago when he mentioned the Bridgeman Seal (sp?). The University of Florida took a technique that some Russian scientists were trying, and refined it a bit. The local paper here reported that they were making perfect, gemstone quality diamonds up to 1 and 1/4 carat in size with "surprisingly small amounts of energy". I don't have the exact date of the report handy, but it hasn't been all that long ago. Knuke >Do any of you Vortexians speak French? I came across a website which >appears to be reporting on the production of gold. I don't speak French, >but I can sort of follow what is going on. What I want to know is the >recipe. > >http://wwwusers.imaginet.fr/~sft/france/1998.htm > >Thomas Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Nov 10 16:03:00 1999 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA17215; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:00:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:00:10 -0800 X-Sender: knuke mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: transmutation Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:29:54 -0500 Message-ID: <19991110232954921.AAC283 mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"aOJJT2.0.oC4.9SWAu" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List:

Design for a Time Machine

The SQMT device

The components

How it all works together

A modification to the SQMT

The Time Machine Design

Conclusion

References