From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 08:56:31 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA27866 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 08:56:28 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA27812 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 08:56:13 -0700 Received: from d207.aa.net (d207.aa.net [204.157.220.207]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA08515 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 08:56:05 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 08:56:05 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508031556.IAA08515 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: My Apologies to Norman Horwood Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Chris has pointed out that in an earlier message I mistakenly wrote: > >>2) This does sort of sound like something Normal Horwood might >>have been referring to earlier in his discussion of atomizers. > >I am sure Norman is *Normal* but I did intend to use his real name >not this psueo alliteration. Please pardon my typos! > >Cheers, >Bill Page > To All, If anyone ever called me normal, I'd be deeply hurt. I've been so impressed by the overall tone and spirit of this thread of discussion that I thought I should probably make a public apology myself. I hereby publicly apologise for saying that a "Jack-O-Lantern in a Fog" was brighter than Dr. Finodeyev. What I meant to say was, of course, "a Dense Fog on a Moonless Night in February on the North Pole". Forgive me if there was any misunderstanding about this. -Knuke "Vote Nixon in '96!" From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 10:12:11 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA13366 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 10:12:09 -0700 Received: from karloff.lanl.gov (karloff.lanl.gov [128.165.16.190]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA13309 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 10:11:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199508031711.KAA13309 mail.eskimo.com> Received: by karloff.lanl.gov (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA219920165; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 11:16:05 -0600 From: Ron McFee Subject: Petersburg or Austin? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 3 Aug 95 11:16:04 MDT Cc: mcfee karloff.lanl.gov Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey guys the Cold War is over! At Los Alamos we have had joint projects with the Russian nuclear weapons laboratories for the last two years. It is time for us vortexans (vortejanos?) to make some deals too. Scott has almost insisted that Yuri S. (Simonovich?) personally attend the testing in St. Petersburg. Considering the present state of the Former Soviet Union this may involve great personal expense and risk to Dr. Potapov. I agree that it would be nice if he could make sure that the Petersburg tests are well done and show positive results. However a demonstration in Russia, I believe, is not really what most of us would like to see. Instead of insisting that Yuri go to St. Petersburg I think that Scott should invite him to make a presentation in Austin. Regards, Ron From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 10:36:21 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA18027 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 10:36:17 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA18003 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 10:36:09 -0700 Received: from d200.aa.net (d200.aa.net [204.157.220.200]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA15083 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 10:35:58 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 10:35:58 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508031735.KAA15083 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: Bruce Lewinstein and s.p.f. Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >To: >INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com > >This is off-topic, but Gene and Scott both commented on the difference in tone >between the posts here and the ones on sci.physics.fusion. Bruce Lewenstein >(bvl1 postoffice.mail.cornell.edu), a history of science professor at Cornell, >has written some excellent articles and papers about this very subject. I mean >he has written about sci.physics.fusion and the role of e-mail in modern >science. I recommend "The Changing Culture of Research: Processes of Knowledge >Transfer," A Report to the U.S. Congress OTA, OTA Contract No I3-4570.0, 21 >Sept. 1992. > > > >I see this message has gone on too long. This is off-topic, and I would like >see the discussion here remained focused on ultrasound machines, apart from a >few Vital Digressions about Sir Gwain of the Green Garter. > >- Jed > Actually Jed, I rather liked your comments and felt a little of this type of reflection is useful to all of us. There is not a vortexian among us who has not felt the sting of being "inappropriate" and politically/academically inappropriate in too many places. I think one of the things which motivates all of the main contributors is the desire to see the naysayers of conventional thoughts and paradigms recognize personally that they have to eat a big plate of "crow" (to be polite) because of the success of a technical renegade opening a new continent of scientific opportunity. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 10:41:50 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA19134 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 10:41:47 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA19095 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 10:41:34 -0700 Received: from s2c0p0.aa.net (s2c0p0.aa.net [204.157.220.64]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA15512 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 10:41:19 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 10:41:19 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508031741.KAA15512 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: empathy Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >_Knuke_: I appreciate much your ideas re. full use of the richness >of the different languages. I have translated volumes from English >and from Russian, both in Romanian but I am far from your ideal >translator. However I think I succeeded to help and I am ready to >do it any time it will be necessary. >You spoke about"idiomatic expressions" and I dare to ask your >friendly help for finding the American equivalent of one which is >perfectly fit for the present situation. (Yusmarization). >It is concerning a Hungarian expression, seemingly trivial and >obscene actually having an immense heuristic value: >A TECHNIKAVAL NEM LEHET KIBASZNI! >Translated mot-a-mot it says "You cannot fuck out with the >technology". Its interpretation is that you MUST respect strictly >the Rules of the Art, that very small details can transform a no >in yes and vice-versa. If you don't do so, you will be punished, >encounter failure, accidents, disasters. The details are suffering >of megalomania and paranoia, they take revenge with cruelty when >neglected. >In my collection of American quotes the following supports the same >idea: > >"Technology is not a science, not a discipline, not a tool and >not engineering. It's know-how" >(Alfred Wechsler, Vice President of Arthur D. Little*) >(*Scott, if this gentleman is your relative, I think he is a >little-little bit angry with you. He belongs to a generation >of fighters...). >Thank you in advance, Knuke! >All the best wishes from Peter Gluck! Dear Dr. Gluck! First, let me say that your translations and knowledge have been very helpful to us all. The translations are not in perfect English, but most Americans do not know how to write in perfect English either. Ha! I also am honored that you have directed your question about obscene idiomatic expressions to me, although I think that I am just an amateur in this area of expertise. Sailors have traditionally made an artform out of obscene idiomatic expressions, and in my life, I have met some people who were truly outstanding in their contributions to this Art. I've been searching my memory banks for an equivilent expression to the one you have mentioned, and I do know of several that would be similar. My favorite one I will send to you via private E-mail, because it is really, really, wonderfully obscene. The saying comes to my mind whenever I try to do something to improve or repair a situation, and the result turns out to be terribly wrong. It has to do with fooling yourself about a bad idea. It basically says that if you lie to yourself about something you will suffer terrible consequences. It is especially applicable when solving wngineering problems. I give the credit for its' origin to a friend of mine, an absolutely perfect bilingual, the good Dr. John Hoyem of Munich. I think he also coined the phrase "Nuke the Gay, Unborn Whales!". At least, I heard it from him many years before I saw it anywhere else. It summed up beautifully his attitude toward political correctness in his typically succinct and obscene manner. His laser quick verbal delivery of this phrase was characterized by his usual precise enunciation and tone which left no doubt in the listeners' minds about his disdain for the politically correct. The reason that I won't post my favorite expression here, is that this is a more or less public forum, and some of the readers might find it offensive. This forum was formed for the discussion of vortex generating devices, and I have invited members of the academic world, the business community, the government, and the alternative energy press to read it, learn from it, and hopefully contribute to it. The business community and the government, in this country especially, are generally a fiscally conservative lot, and many of its' members are conservative in the religious sense as well. I know all too well that the use of obscene language in this public forum would offend these people in particular, a great deal, so I choose to refrain from using it. It is, first and most importantly, a matter of consideration and respect to them, and secondly, a practical matter since it is the business community and government who will need to be courted in order to provide funding for research in this area, and commercialization of any resulting technology. I would hope that the discussions don't become so politically correct as to become dull or maudlin, but I also ask that the use of obscenities be avoided in the public forum. There are so many colorful ways to express oneself that can convey similar meanings, and I've found that it is the trait of educated and intelligent people to find and use these alternatives to obscenity. -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 12:44:49 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA15639 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 12:44:43 -0700 Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA15548 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 12:44:24 -0700 From: visor globalcom.net Received: from 204.111.1.88 (eb1ppp24.globalcom.net [204.111.1.88]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id PAA23985 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 15:44:56 -0400 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 15:44:56 -0400 Message-Id: <199508031944.PAA23985 head.globalcom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <950802215707_72240.1256_EHB145-1 CompuServe.COM> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Group, Several of the distinguished members of this mailing asked if I could get a copy of this news article about Vizor. The requested text arrived from my associate in Moldova last night. I hope the the translation is OK with Knuke. I would be happy to send the russian text to anyone interested. (translated and reprinted with permission of author) A controversial Invention is being advertised by the government newspaper "Independent Moldova" Kishinev 29.04.1995 - (BASA-press). The newspaper "Independent Moldova" has taken up a whole page to advertise thermal generators offered by Science and Technology Firm "Vizor", Kishinev. The firm is headed by Yuri Potapov. Potapov is introduced by the editorial board of the paper as " merited inventor of Moldova and Cuba and author of more than one hundred patents and inventions. Potapov mentions that the operations of thermal generator "Yusmar" is based on the principle of obtaining energy from water, which is set in motion by an electric pump. " Our heat generator is something in between the known cooling and heating devices, but with high coefficient of energy transformation", says Potapov. According to the source quoted at this time Yusmar generators are being produced by patent in Russia, Moldova, France, Belorussia, Kazakhstan and other countries. "At this time of severe crisis I would like for our most deprived organizations (children wards, hospitals, kindergartens, schools and other companies) who on their own aren't able to purchase our units, to receive support from the government," says Potapov. The editorial board has also mentioned that Potapov is referred to as a man who has challenged the unshakable laws of classic physics - the laws of energy conservation and transformation. A year ago the National Council on Energy of Moldova gave a statement against the mass production of the Yusmar type thermal generator. The members of the Council then addressed the leadership of the country in regards to the ongoing production of the units banned by the State Energy Inspection. The Council then stated its intention to pass the materials down to the state investigation bodies, with such materials pointing to the obstruction of legislation. The reply from the official bodies was not publicized. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 12:54:40 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA17888 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 12:54:31 -0700 Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA17760 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 12:53:58 -0700 Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id PAA02010; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 15:53:13 -0400 Date: 03 Aug 95 15:48:03 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Visit to Russia Message-ID: <950803194802_100433.1541_BHG102-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Ron, Obviously I'd like to have Dr Potapov visit St Petersburg while we are playing with the machine. Especially if it doesn't work. But this is most certainly not a 'demonstration'. It will be a group setting a complete system up to run, just as any customer would do. The machine is complete and in the form sold by Potapov. So it should work as advertised, with or without him, but has nothing directly to do with him. I should add that Dr Potapov is due to visit the USA in September - last I heard, anyway. I don't know where he's going to be visiting. As for a demo in the US, well, maybe. If the machine works as advertised, I will do everything I can to have the very machine I use bought or borrowed and (in the first instance) brought to the UK. That is simply because the supply here is directly compatible with Russia's, and (as far as I and immediate associates are concerned) the UK and US are pretty much as good as each other for these purposes - unless one lives in Los Angeles or Seattle, admittedly. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 13:49:27 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA01331 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:49:11 -0700 Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA01256 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 13:48:48 -0700 From: visor globalcom.net Received: from 204.111.1.88 (eb1ppp24.globalcom.net [204.111.1.88]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id QAA27811 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 16:48:40 -0400 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 16:48:40 -0400 Message-Id: <199508032048.QAA27811 head.globalcom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Patent chase To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <950803194802_100433.1541_BHG102-1 CompuServe.COM> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Volks, I am in the process of searching past and present Soviet and Russian patents for key words relating to the YUSMAR. If anyone would like me to add their keywords to the search just drop me and email. The CDs that I am using output to printer or file. These files are .HP printer files. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 22:47:37 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA08387 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 22:47:30 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA08353 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 22:47:19 -0700 Received: from net-1-137.eden.com (net-1-137.eden.com [199.171.21.137]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id AAA01011; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 00:47:15 -0500 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 00:47:15 -0500 Message-Id: <199508040547.AAA01011 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: news article! X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:44 PM 8/3/95 -0400, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: >(translated and reprinted with permission of author) >A year ago the National >Council on Energy of Moldova gave a statement against the >mass production of the Yusmar type thermal generator. The >members of the Council then addressed the leadership of the >country in regards to the ongoing production of the units >banned by the State Energy Inspection. WOW! The Yusmar was BANNED by the State Energy Inspection and then "stated against" by the Council on Energy of Moldova!! Robert, can you please find out more about these two official actions? What prompted these actions? What exactly did these agencies have to say about the Yusmar? - Scott Little, EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 23:44:39 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA14961 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 23:44:37 -0700 Received: from hercule.utcluj.ro (root hercule.utcluj.ro [141.85.128.253]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA14915 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 23:44:11 -0700 Received: by hercule.utcluj.ro (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0seGVd-000MNiC; Fri, 4 Aug 95 09:45 EET DST Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 09:45:29 +0300 (EET DST) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortexophiles, _Knuke_: Thank you very much for your letter and your message. In any case consider the 'saying' as an almost desperate call to our experimenters to take care of the details, and nothing else! I have asked you for a CONVINCING expression, not an obscene one. We have an oversupply of these ugly ones, I have invented a lot e.g. when queing two hours Saturdays in wintertime for the family's bread in Ceausescu's time. Or when we have been freezing in our homes. And may I ask you to call me Peter? My senility is in the normal limits, you will see. "Vortexers of all countries, unite!" _Robert_: Your efforts in helping us are much appreciated. This group is preparing for the Armageddon of the O/U devices and you can do a lot for the victory of the truth. As regarding the patents of Potapov, the possible keywords are: The name of the author: POTAPOV, YURI SEMIONOVICH Subject/Title: HEATER; THERMAL GENERATOR; HEATER FOR WATER. Company: VIZIR, VIZOR or YUSMAR. International class: F22 Issued: 1992-present Country: RUSSIA, BELARUS, UKRAINE, KAZAHSTAN, FRANCE. And MOLDOVA patent no.8/ Jan 26, 1994. Re the article: I have met the governmental committee analyzing the efficiency of the Potapov's thermogenerators during my first visit at Kishinev. The committee has nominated Prof. Musteata to confirm/reject the claims for overunity (if not o/u the Yusmars are wasting the scarce energetical resources of the country). It is a stalemate situation: Prof. Musteata is waiting for a flowmeter to start and doesn't seem anxious to obtain results. I discussed with him many times (Audiatur et altera pars!) and he was very impressedby the results of Griggs. He considers Yuri as a personal enemy, both of him and of Thermodynamics. The committee is working and, in meantime more and more thermogenerators are sold in more and more countries. China was conquered. A strange situation, indeed. zAll the best wishes from Peter! From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 4 00:31:02 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA20379 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 00:31:01 -0700 Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA20350 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 00:30:54 -0700 Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id DAA27993; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 03:30:22 -0400 Date: 04 Aug 95 03:25:44 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: vortex-l group Subject: details essential Message-ID: <950804072544_100060.173_EHK124-3 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Peter Gluck said : " you MUST respect strictly the Rules of the Art, that very small details can transform a no in yes and vice-versa. If you don't do so, you will be punished, encounter failure, accidents, disasters." In this respect I can empathise by virtue of my own experience with attempts at replicating various ou systems. I have found that every supposed ou device that I have built and tested has failed to reproduce the inventors' claims. One of the biggest problems has been the lack of CLEAR instructions for either the construction or the running of the device. In every case the inventor has either refused, or has been unable to communicate in Engineering terms with sufficient accuracy or clarity to enable a newcomer to his art to replicate his results. Frustration set in and after too much money has been spent on apparently futile experimentation you give up the struggle. Jed, Gene and Chris know this only too well to my personal knowledge, and I'm sure that most of this group have had similar experiences. I suppose the answer lies in the fear of the inventor of being ripped off by the competition, so they hold back the real details, not realising that 10% of a big cake is better than 100% of nothing. Lets hope that the Yusmar whirly thingy really does perform as described by the inventor. Even if it only reaches a COP of 3.0 its simplicity and low cost puts it into the same area as the Griggs, which really has the vortex around the "pump" rotor instead of in a separate chamber. Norman Horwood. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 4 01:16:44 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA25047 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 01:16:42 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA25038 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 01:16:37 -0700 Received: from s1c1p6.aa.net (s1c1p6.aa.net [204.157.220.178]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA03182 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 01:16:28 -0700 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 01:16:28 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508040816.BAA03182 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Dear Vortexophiles, > > _Knuke_: Thank you very much for your letter and your message. In ???????????????????????????? > any case consider the 'saying' as an almost desperate call to our > experimenters to take care of the details, and nothing else! > I have asked you for a CONVINCING expression, not an obscene one. > We have an oversupply of these ugly ones, I have invented a lot > e.g. when queing two hours Saturdays in wintertime for the family's > bread in Ceausescu's time. Or when we have been freezing in our > homes. > And may I ask you to call me Peter? My senility is in the normal > limits, you will see. "Vortexers of all countries, unite!" Well Peter, Since I haven't sent you any private E-mail yet, how can you possibly know that my saying is obscene or ugly? >>A TECHNIKAVAL NEM LEHET KIBASZNI! >>Translated mot-a-mot it says "You cannot fuck out with the >>technology". ^^^^ Just for your information, the above word is considered to be offensive to many people in this country. I was politely asking you in the Vortex message not to use language like this in the public discussions. Unless someone else is sending you private messages with my name on them, I will reserve judgement on the state of your senility. If you do have an obscene message that you think is from me, I'd sure like to see it. Since you are into details, leave the header on it so I can trace where it came from. This is getting kind of weird. -Knuke >_Robert_: Your efforts in helping us are much appreciated. This group is >preparing for the Armageddon of the O/U devices and you can do a lot ????????????????????????????? >for the victory of the truth. > >As regarding the patents of Potapov, the possible keywords are: > >The name of the author: POTAPOV, YURI SEMIONOVICH >Subject/Title: HEATER; THERMAL GENERATOR; HEATER FOR WATER. >Company: VIZIR, VIZOR or YUSMAR. >International class: F22 >Issued: 1992-present >Country: RUSSIA, BELARUS, UKRAINE, KAZAHSTAN, FRANCE. > And MOLDOVA patent no.8/ Jan 26, 1994. > >Re the article: I have met the governmental committee analyzing the >efficiency of the Potapov's thermogenerators during my first visit at >Kishinev. The committee has nominated Prof. Musteata to confirm/reject >the claims for overunity (if not o/u the Yusmars are wasting the scarce >energetical resources of the country). It is a stalemate situation: Prof. >Musteata is waiting for a flowmeter to start and doesn't seem anxious to >obtain results. I discussed with him many times (Audiatur et altera >pars!) and he was very impressedby the results of Griggs. He considers >Yuri as a personal enemy, both of him and of Thermodynamics. >The committee is working and, in meantime more and more thermogenerators >are sold in more and more countries. China was conquered. ??????????????????? >A strange situation, indeed. You can say that again, Pete! > >zAll the best wishes from Peter! > > From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 4 03:42:58 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA06731 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 03:42:57 -0700 Received: from hercule.utcluj.ro (root hercule.utcluj.ro [141.85.128.253]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA06692 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 03:42:39 -0700 Received: by hercule.utcluj.ro (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0seKEI-000MQqC; Fri, 4 Aug 95 13:43 EET DST Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 13:43:46 +0300 (EET DST) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Friends, My apologies to all for my inadequate language and using of four-letter words! It wouldn't happen again. I have translated Gene's report and sent it to Yuri. I hope my next translation will be the Potapov patent, I'll finish it --from Russian, Belarussian or Moldavian in the shortest time possible. It is obligatory to describe the principle; what he _claims_ is very interesting. However, I can tell on basis of my own patents (24) that without know-how a patent is not directly applicable in practice. In my former letter I referred to China: the Chinese have bought the licence for the Yusmars. Best regards, Peter From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 7 07:54:42 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA11207 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 07:54:40 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA11200 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 07:54:36 -0700 Received: from s1c1p3.aa.net (s1c1p3.aa.net [204.157.220.175]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA25475 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 07:54:38 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 07:54:38 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508071454.HAA25475 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Vortex Engine Study Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To All, Has anyone else tried to contact this group at the University of Houston yet? I still haven't gotten an answer from them to my E-mail inquiry. Scott, since it would be a local call for you, could you maybe give them a ring? Thanks -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 7 08:51:24 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA20549 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 08:51:22 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA20525 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 08:51:15 -0700 Received: from net-1-196.eden.com (net-1-196.eden.com [199.171.21.196]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id KAA14742 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 10:51:11 -0500 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 10:51:11 -0500 Message-Id: <199508071551.KAA14742 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: Vortex Engine Study X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Knuke sez: >To All, > Has anyone else tried to contact this group at the University of Houston >yet? I still haven't gotten an answer from them to my E-mail inquiry. >Scott, since it would be a local call for you, could you maybe give them a >ring? Thanks -Knuke Knuke, I know Texas must seem like a little patch of desert and tumbleweeds from up there in the GREAT NORTHWEST but actually it's a pretty big place. Houston is a good 150 miles from here (Austin) and it's one of the closer big cities. However, I have no problem contacting these guys...I guess I'll start by requesting the "brief summary of our current research" mentioned below. I'll let y'all know just as soon as I hear something. >The project involves experimental and numerical research on developing >vortex engines (LIQUD PISTON ENGINE) and propulsion devices (ALUMINUM >BURNING THRUSTERS). > >Please feel free to contact the me for further details, application material >or a brief summary of our current research (e-mail is preferred): > >Satish Narayanan (713)743-4581 [email:MECE23G@JETSON.UH.EDU] > >Aerodynamics & Turbulence Laboratory >Department of Mechanical Engineering >University of Houston >Houston, TX 77204-4792 > Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 7 09:15:06 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA24608 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 09:14:58 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA24563 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 09:14:46 -0700 Received: from s1c1p1.aa.net (s1c1p1.aa.net [204.157.220.173]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA30084 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 09:14:47 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 09:14:47 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508071614.JAA30084 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: Vortex Engine Study Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> >Knuke, I know Texas must seem like a little patch of desert and tumbleweeds >from up there in the GREAT NORTHWEST but actually it's a pretty big place. >Houston is a good 150 miles from here (Austin) and it's one of the closer >big cities. > >However, I have no problem contacting these guys...I guess I'll start by >requesting the "brief summary of our current research" mentioned below. >I'll let y'all know just as soon as I hear something. > Scott, It shouldn't be more than a couple days' ride by horse, should it? Just saddle up the ole nag, and mosey on over. I forgot you guys were in Austin. -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 7 12:09:58 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA29643 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:09:47 -0700 Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA29563 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:09:27 -0700 Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id PAA06248; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 15:08:54 -0400 Date: 07 Aug 95 15:05:46 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Subject: That's "hoss" Message-ID: <950807190546_72240.1256_EHB206-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: >INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com Knuke writes: "It shouldn't be more than a couple days' ride by horse, should it? Just saddle up the ole nag, and mosey on over." I believe that should be pronounced "hoss" (rhymes with "wuss" as in "for better or . . ."). My understanding, which is based on extensive sources like the television series "Dallas," is that Texas is quite modern these days. People have a choice. They can go long distances by 'hoss' but they can also travel in limousines, and most people, including Scott I expect, fly in their own jet propelled helicopters. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 7 21:45:17 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA13395 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 21:45:14 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA13376 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 21:45:06 -0700 Received: from net-1-134.eden.com (net-1-134.eden.com [199.171.21.134]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id XAA05563 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 23:44:58 -0500 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 23:44:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199508080444.XAA05563 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: St. Pete Expedition X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris, Are your travel plans firming up? What are the remaining concerns (if any) about the measurements you plan to make? - Scott Little, EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 8 08:11:24 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA20808 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 08:11:20 -0700 Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA20785 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 08:11:13 -0700 Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id LAA06322; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:10:39 -0400 Date: 08 Aug 95 11:08:56 EDT From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Various Matters - 8/8/95 Message-ID: <950808150856_76570.2270_HHB40-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortexians: A number of things to report.... ITEM#1: I spoke to a Mr. Robert Smith of Oakton International (in Virginia), a retired DOD honcho, who last November was given a VIP tour of the Russian cosmonauts' Star City near Moscow. He was invited there after returning from the Minsk CF conference that September (1994). In Moscow last November, he saw a demonstration of what might be a variant of the Potapov device -- or perhaps it was the Potapov device *as it was intended to be used*. There is a Big Mystery here now! Smith told me that the device looks pretty much like the one in the photo of Business Match, which was in IE#2. However, he was shown another part of the device in sample form --the exit tube -- and was told that it had inside it what he described as a "stack of cookie cutters." He was told by Lev Sapogin on this tour that these ring-like gadgets were for the purpose of creating millions of tiny cavitation bubbles that would collapse to create the heat. He said an individual "cookie cutter" had a central 0.75-inch hole and a perimeter ring that would fit the ID of the exit tube. There were sharp spokes connecting the central hole with the perimeter ring. These spokes had vanes that were aligned parallel to the axis of the exit tube. Each cookie cutter was offset from the ones near it on the stack so as to create sharp turns for the supposed flow down the tube. I think I am getting his description correctly, but I'm not absolutely certain. All I am certain of is that the representation was made by the Russian group that these cookie cutters were essential for the device to work. Furthermore, Smith told me that the sound of this device was so loud ( "like 100 dB," he said) that it was painful to be in the shed with it in operation. Scott Little and our group can confirm that we most definitely have NOT heard such a loud device. So the question arises: Do we have the corretc innards of our devices or not? It would seem silly for Potapov to send out tubes so lacking in such an elementary part. Maybe the Moscow people made this "improvement" on the device. I am at a loss to know what is going on here. Perhaps Robert of Visor (US) can help us. ITEM #2: Here are the pressures and flows that we ran in our comparison tests, just to show the range we covered. P1 is the pressure before the Yusmar, P4 is the pressure at the inlet of the pump -- way downstream from the Yusmar and dummy pipe: P1 (psi) P4 (psi) Flow (gpm) Yusmar run #1 117 78 70 Dummy run #2 110 72 72 Dummy run #3 125 75 66 Yusmar run #4 120 80 71 Yusmar run #5 110 69 72 Yusmar run #6 142 78 63 Yusmar run #7 165 78 54 Yusmar run #8 223 82 26 ITEM#3: Yes, Knuke, we were using a pressure relief valve initially, though later Jeff got rid of it because he wanted to go to higher pressures. We were told by our "advisors" that the steel pipes were good to pressures several times our top pressure. Were they wrong? Yes, I got the papers evaluating the Schaeffer-Aqua device. Fascinating! Especially the one by physics Professor Linda McDonald of North Park College. If anything, her O-U evaluations could be conservatively low becasue it looks as though she did not include the postive effect of power factor!! She did not measure it. Clearly there are problems with her power measurements. ITEM#4: Translation from Russian text by Valery Milgrom, Concord, NH for Infinite Energy Translation **Copyright 1995, Cold Fusion Technology**: REPORT In connection with tests for determining effectiveness of heating devices equipped with vortex hydrodynamic heat generators. December 1994 through April 1995 there were conducted 25 trial start tests of the devices equipped with the said heat generators at the Bobruisk Machine Manufacturing Plant [Bobruisk, Belarus - V.M.] experimental site. Testing rigs included: devices with heat generators based on pumps BK 8050200; HK 200120, heat load connected. Measurements were conducted by regular thermometers for the temperature measurement and wattmeters for the power consumption measurement. Time intervals of the various test stages was registered, too. Temperature of the heattransfer agent in the case of a Small heat Circuit [Note: "Small heat Circuit must mean without the radiators -- E. Mallove] was registered in one place only. Temperature of the heattransfer agent in the case of a Big heat Circuit was registered in two places: inlet and outlet temperatures of a heat consumption apparatus were measured. Effectiveness indexes were determined by calculation using output parameters of the system (temperature, time, the heattransfer agent mass, the electric drive power consumption). Enclosed is a table listing the results of the tests Conclusions *1. In eight tests, an index "Kilocal. / (KiloWatt * Minute)" in the case of the Small heat Circuit, without considering of a steam generation factor, was in the range 8.0 to. 11.6 Kilocal. / (KiloWatt * Minute) that allows to get a Coefficient of Efficiency in the range 1.5 to 2.4 when the device works in an intermittent mode "Heating up Cooling down" 1:2 (in time intervals) {******* This latter comment "1:2 (in time intervals)" may be extremely important: Valery Milgrom says that it means that the device was "on" for one unit of time and off for two units of time -- i.e. only a 33% duty cycle -- when you run the calculations on the table of numbers below, this results in definite O-U performance -if we are interpreting everything correctly. ******E. Mallove.} In the rest of the tests, at 4.4 to 7.9 Kilocal. / (KiloWatt * Minute) the Coefficient of Efficiency was in the range 0.93 to 1.45. In the case of the Big heat Circuit, with the same conditions Coefficients of Efficiency were in the range 2.1 to 10 and 1.2 to 2.0 respectively. Besides, in two tests good results received on the Small Circuit match good results on the Big one (TG2 with jet pump and heat generator with adjustable orifice). [I think "TG" may stand for "Heat Generator." - V.M.] In the above stated conditions in the intermittent mode of work, only in one out of twentyfive tests the result [Coefficient of Efficiency - V.M.] was lesser than 1.0. In two cases the Coefficient was 10.0. An average Coefficient for the most characteristic tests (excluding the two most effective ones) turned out to be 1.76. *2. It is believed that the higher indexes of efficiency are typical to the tests when some elements of control of thermodynamic processes in systems were used (jet pumps, hydraulic elevators, adjustable orifice plates). *3. With the lesser capacity of the Small Circuit, the speed of its heating up increases, but the threshold of the pump cavitation decreases. Any changes in relation of the Small Circuit capacity to the Big one do not affect substantially the speed of the Big Circuit heating up. *4. Increase in the drive power speeds up the Big Circuit heating up, which factor increases the overall effectiveness and efficiency of the system when the device works in an intermittent mode. *5. The higher Coefficient of Performance (COP) is, the higher is the overall efficiency of the device. *6. Decrease in the hydrodynamic resistance in the Small Circuit tubes is appreciable besides factors regulating hydrodynamic characteristics of the current (adjustable orifice plates, etc.) *7. Experiments conducted in the continuous mode did not yield answers for all questions (appearance of additional [ Does this "additional" mean "excess" ?- E. Mallove] heat in three out of 25 experiments; possible design versions of regulators of the hydrodynamics of the process in the Small Circuit have not been researched in a systematic way). *8. With the increase in pressure in the Small Circuit overall efficiency of the system increases to some degree. *9. Further research with increased ... [illegible because of poor fax in original Russian - E.M] needed. *10. Heating devices with heat generators possess significant advantages over other types of heating devices particularly when economic, maintenance, operational and ecological characteristics are compared. Their Certification for a wide range of use in industrial conditions as well as in private dwellings is recommended. Research was conducted by; Chief Engineer of the Bobruisk Machine Manufacturing Plant E. Yu. Prokazov (signature) Chief Engineer of the Yurlo Company, Minsk [Capital of the Republic of Belarus - V.M.] G. Zelenko (signature) Leacling Engineer of the Plant, Z. I. Gruts (signature) Head of the Plant's Department of Mechanization G. D. Belsky (signature). Exhibit to the Report 1 Kilowaff * Hour = 860 KilocaI. =14 Kilocal. / (KiloWatt * Minute) [Handwriting on report - V.M.] Research of indexes of efficiency of heating devices with vortex and other type heat generators Titles of Columns (of chart below) 1. Heat Energy of the Small Circuit, Kilocal. 2. Heat Energy of the Big Circuit, Kilocal. 3. Temperature (delta t1 and delta t2), Celsius degree. 4. Pump; COP / (Power, KiloWatt) in the Small and Big Circuits respectively. 5. Time, Minutes (T1 for the Small Circuit and T2 for the Big Circuit). 6. Heat Energy / (Power * Time) for the Small Circuit, Kilocal. / (KiloWaftt* Min.). 7. Heat Energy / (Power * Time) for the Big Circuit, fUlocal. /(KiloWatt * Minute) 8. Capacity of the Small Circuit / Capacity of the Big Circuit. Titles of Rows (of chart below); 1; 2; 3; 6: TG-3, vertical 4: TG3, vertical, with 25 millimeters diameter orifice (or. 25); 5: TG3, vertical, with or. 70 (suction); 7: TG2, vertical, without ...; 8: TG2, vertical, with ...; 9: Valve instead of TG3; 10: Electric Heating Device; 11: TG3, horizontal, with orifice (suction); 12, 13: TG3, horizontal; 14: TG3M ["M" may mean "Modified" - V.M.] 15: TG3M, with or.35; 16: TG3M, with or.25; 17: TG3M, vertical, with or. 35/40; 18: TG3. Note. + means generation of steam was neglected in calculations. [In labels of rows #7 and 8 "..." stands for the abbreviation I cannot understand. It may be something like "hydro-electric" or "generator of electricity", but I am affraid to speculate - V.M.] _______________________________ This is the table of numbers: 2500+ 11300 104 30 0.5/13.7 14.0 26 118 7.3+ 6.7 16/330 (4.8%) 2000+ 13000 66 30 0.5/13.2 13.8 20 126 7.3+ 6.5 16/330 (4.8%) 2100+ 39000 79 41 0.5/13.9 13.8 23 282 6.6+ 10.0 16/880 (1.8%) 11200+ 13000 83 31 0.5/12.5 12.5 105 210 8.5+ 5.0 80/330 (24%) 2400+ 11530 101 31 0.5/14.2 14.4 30 98 5.6+ 8.2 16/330 (4.8%) 9000+ 31800 70 25 0.7/50 50 25 15 7.2+ 42.0 80/110? (7.2%) 10000+ 63700 88 54 0.7/48 48 25 120 8.4+ 11.0 80/110? (7.2%) 10000+ 30000 83 24 0.7/37.8 42.0 32 15 8.3+ 48.0 ??????? (7.2%) ----- 36300 44 9.18 600 6.6 - 1800 3000+ 9130 101 30 0.5/13.2 13.8 30 80 7.6+ 8.2 22/270 (8.2%) 3100+ 14125 110 45 0.5/14.4 14.2 35 115 6.2+ 8.7 22/285 (7.7%) 2500+ 47200 102 39 0.5/14.2 14.2 38 237 4.7+ 14.3 16/880 (1.8%) 2400+ 84 14 20 8.6+ 20/330 (6.1%) 2500+ 92 14 25 7.2+ 2600+ 94 14 25 7.5+ 1320+ 66 0.5/14 15 6.3+ 20/330 (6.1%) 3200+ 127 12 60 4.4+ 20/330 (6.1%) 2500+ 88 12 30 7.?+ 2100+ 71 13.2 85 /.9+ 11300+ 13000 84 32 13.5 13.5 85 172 9.8+ 5.8 80/330 (24%) 11000+ 81 13.65 70 11.5+ 10000+ 81000 88 70 0.5 50 25 25 8.5+ 64.8 80/1100 (7.2%) ************ Obviously, you will have problems reading numbers like this. It adds to the fun! Hah! Gene From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 8 10:37:50 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA18916 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 10:37:45 -0700 Received: from GAV.GAT.COM (GAV.GAT.COM [192.5.166.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA18902 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 10:37:40 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: <199508081737.KAA18902 mail.eskimo.com> Received: from [198.133.146.230] by 198.133.146.230 with SMTP; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 10:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 10:41:34 -0800 To: vortex-L mail.eskimo.com Subject: Loop pressurization Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Eugene: Your test loop has a high pump inlet pressure (p4), much above atmospheric. 1. How are you pressurizing the loop and then regulating it as the water and components heat and expand? 2. The high pressure makes cavitation very unlikely, since cavitation requires a reduction of the LOCAL fluid pressure to below the fluid vapor pressure. Have you also tried lower pressures? (Of course, who knows if cavitation is at all important in the Yusmar. Your high pressure tests and Little's atmospheric (at the exit) tests are complementary.) Michael J. Schaffer schaffer gav.gat.com Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4146 General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 8 11:06:21 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA24618 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:06:16 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA24586 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:06:07 -0700 Received: from s2c0p7.aa.net (s2c0p7.aa.net [204.157.220.71]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA30670 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:05:15 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:05:15 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508081805.LAA30670 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: Various Matters - 8/8/95 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey Gene! This is fantastic news! >Dear Vortexians: > >A number of things to report.... I guess so! > >ITEM#1: > >I spoke to a Mr. Robert Smith of Oakton International (in Virginia), a retired >DOD honcho, who last November was given a VIP tour of the Russian cosmonauts' >Star City near Moscow. He was invited there after returning from the Minsk CF >conference that September (1994). In Moscow last November, he saw a >demonstration of what might be a variant of the Potapov device -- or perhaps >it was the Potapov device *as it was intended to be used*. There is a Big >Mystery here now! > >Smith told me that the device looks pretty much like the one in the photo of >Business Match, which was in IE#2. However, he was shown another part of the >device in sample form --the exit tube -- and was told that it had inside it >what he described as a "stack of cookie cutters." He was told by Lev Sapogin >on this tour that these ring-like gadgets were for the purpose of creating >millions of tiny cavitation bubbles that would collapse to create the heat. He >said an individual "cookie cutter" had a central 0.75-inch hole and a >perimeter ring that would fit the ID of the exit tube. There were sharp spokes >connecting the central hole with the perimeter ring. These spokes had vanes >that were aligned parallel to the axis of the exit tube. Each cookie cutter >was offset from the ones near it on the stack so as to create sharp turns for >the supposed flow down the tube. If you'll recall, in the early stages of discussion of the device that Scott has, I had asked if there were any "flow lenses" or anything else for that matter inside the device itself. Since he didn't respond, I assumed that he must thought it was a dumb question or just didn't consider it. We've been working on the asssumtion that the Yusmar is supposed to be "just a Vortex tube" like a water tornado generator or something. The cookie cutter things make alot of sense from the standpoint of creating alot more sheer force heat which would be stored in the metal of the pipe, and for creating low pressure areas that would allow for the formation of cavitation bubbles. The added surface area would most probably mean that these bubbles would be collapsing on the surface of these cookie cutter things, and they probably need replacement every so often because of pitting. I think I am getting his description >correctly, but I'm not absolutely certain. All I am certain of is that the >representation was made by the Russian group that these cookie cutters were >essential for the device to work. Furthermore, Smith told me that the sound of >this device was so loud ( "like 100 dB," he said) that it was painful to be in >the shed with it in operation. This corresponds nicely with the sound heard from the Griggs Gadget when it is cavitating as well. Scott Little and our group can confirm that we >most definitely have NOT heard such a loud device. So the question arises: Do >we have the corretc innards of our devices or not? It would seem silly for >Potapov to send out tubes so lacking in such an elementary part. Maybe the >Moscow people made this "improvement" on the device. I am at a loss to know >what is going on here. Perhaps Robert of Visor (US) can help us. As I've said to people in my private E-mail, there have been so many things about this whole Potopov business that have impressed me as being goofy in the extreme. It almost looked as if Potopov was simultaneously selling and inventing the Yusmar as he went along. A good way of getting funding for the research perhaps, but not exactly an honest business practice. Who knows? The story seems to be continually unfolding - along with the various configurations. > >ITEM #2: > I haven't had time to analyse these numbers yet. > > >ITEM#3: > >Yes, Knuke, we were using a pressure relief valve initially, though later Jeff >got rid of it because he wanted to go to higher pressures. We were told by our >"advisors" that the steel pipes were good to pressures several times our top >pressure. Were they wrong? They probably weren't wrong about the pipe itself as long as you gave them an accurate estimate of what those levels of pressures could reach. The real problems would come from the seams of the braze welds, the pump seal, and any of the other, weaker parts of the system, which can found only by high pressure gas testing. If you talk to any old boiler tech, you will learn that steam from a pinhole leak can be invisible, noiseless in the din of the other noise of a ship, and deadly. The old guys that I knew, would only get within 20 feet of a boiler or steam line by first carrying a 6 foot length of something like a broom handle or something that they would wave around in front of them like a blind man. If the stick wasn't cut in half, they would proceed further into the boiler room. They would do this EVERY time they entered the area, because they knew that EVERTHING deteriorates with time including properly built and installed equipment. Yours is an EXPERIMENTAL setup, which was built by inexperienced amatuers (no disrespect intended, just a safety consideration that must be done in the harshest of lights). The number of unkowns in a setup like this are staggering, and this type of work should be very carefully done all the time. Call me a "mother hen", or whatever, but you just have to be careful. > >Yes, I got the papers evaluating the Schaeffer-Aqua device. Fascinating! >Especially the one by physics Professor Linda McDonald of North Park College. >If anything, her O-U evaluations could be conservatively low becasue it looks >as though she did not include the postive effect of power factor!! She did >not measure it. Clearly there are problems with her power measurements. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I know. I cited these reports because Scott was asking for some compelling evidence written in a coherent fashion for the claims that Aqua and me were making. I knew that my data was so scattered and poorly presented that I dug out these reports as examples of scientific reporting done by real scientists in a laboratory setting as opposed to a kitchen. When I reread them, I saw how she measured the power and thought "Oh! No! She used a scope!". I've never used a scope, and don't even know how to interpret the data, so I'm not in any position to defend the report. When I talked to my dad about the Zumwalt report, however, (he used a wattmeter) my dad said that Zumwalt was so worried about what he was seeing that he refused to sign the report unless he could edit out the manufacturer's peak efficiency numbers. If you'll notice those numbers are conspicuously absent, and his wording about over unity was very skillful indeed. ITEM#4: > >Translation from Russian text by Valery Milgrom, Concord, NH for Infinite >Energy Translation **Copyright 1995, Cold Fusion Technology**: > > > > REPORT > >In connection with tests for determining effectiveness of heating devices >equipped with vortex hydrodynamic heat generators. > >December 1994 through April 1995 there were conducted 25 trial start tests of >the devices equipped with the said heat generators at the Bobruisk Machine >Manufacturing Plant [Bobruisk, Belarus - V.M.] experimental site. > >Testing rigs included: devices with heat generators based on pumps BK 8050200; >HK 200120, heat load connected. Measurements were conducted by regular >thermometers for the temperature measurement and wattmeters for the power >consumption measurement. Time intervals of the various test stages was >registered, too. Temperature of the heattransfer agent in the case of a Small >heat Circuit [Note: "Small heat Circuit must mean without the radiators -- E. >Mallove] was registered in one place only. Temperature of the heattransfer >agent in the case of a Big heat Circuit was registered in two places: inlet >and outlet temperatures of a heat consumption apparatus were measured. >Effectiveness indexes were determined by calculation using output parameters >of the system (temperature, time, the heattransfer agent mass, the electric >drive power consumption). > >Enclosed is a table listing the results of the tests > >Conclusions > >*1. In eight tests, an index "Kilocal. / (KiloWatt * Minute)" in the case of > >the Small heat Circuit, without considering of a steam generation factor, was >in the range >8.0 to. 11.6 Kilocal. / (KiloWatt * Minute) that allows to get a Coefficient >of Efficiency in the range 1.5 to 2.4 when the device works in an intermittent >mode "Heating up Cooling down" 1:2 (in time intervals) > >{******* This latter comment "1:2 (in time intervals)" may be extremely >important: Valery Milgrom says that it means that the device was "on" for one >unit of time and off for two units of time -- i.e. only a 33% duty cycle -- >when you run the calculations on the table of numbers below, this results in >definite O-U performance -if we are interpreting everything correctly. >******E. Mallove.} This is exactly what I was trying to convey to the ENECO people when they were testing my device, and why their protocols were so absurd to me. The DOE and NIST have protocols for testing room heaters that allow for this sort of thing and account for it. The efficiency of hydronic heaters for example HAVE to be tested in this manner because the heating element is turned off most of the time, and the heat is transferred throughout the heating agent itself by convection currents generally, and sometimes with the aid of a small recirculating pump. The heat is then transferred to the air in a more slow, even, and uniform fashion, which is the only advantage of a simple hydronics room heater. They are not any more efficient overall than a resistance coil heater. In a cavitational heating systems, however, they are more efficient if the systems do indeed induce cavitation. If I was designing a testing protocol for a room heater, I would only use the "room within a room" approach with the device performance compared to a known performance of a device such as an electrical resistance coil heater. It's not any more expensive to do, and you can actually MEASURE and account for 99.9% of all of the heat generated without any of the errorprone guesswork and calculations regarding the efficiencies of pumps, motors, and the like. You also have the performance data from the coil heater under the exact same conditions to compare it with, so you will have your "null constant". You also end up with data that is easy to interpret, understand, and replicate. The data that you get is simply irrefutable, and impossible to ignore. This data will also be good whether the device is 300% efficient or only 108% efficient, using this type of protocol. > >In the rest of the tests, at 4.4 to 7.9 Kilocal. / (KiloWatt * Minute) the >Coefficient of Efficiency was in the range 0.93 to 1.45. > >In the case of the Big heat Circuit, with the same conditions Coefficients of >Efficiency were in the range 2.1 to 10 and 1.2 to 2.0 respectively. > >Besides, in two tests good results received on the Small Circuit match good >results on the Big one (TG2 with jet pump and heat generator with adjustable >orifice). [I think "TG" may stand for "Heat Generator." - V.M.] It's probably Thermal Generator. > >In the above stated conditions in the intermittent mode of work, only in one >out of twentyfive tests the result [Coefficient of Efficiency - V.M.] was >lesser than 1.0. > >In two cases the Coefficient was 10.0. An average Coefficient for the most >characteristic tests (excluding the two most effective ones) turned out to be >1.76. I would say that these were pretty compelling numbers, and I understand better now your rush to get your hands on one. I haven't had the time to look at everything in detail, but you can bet I will. Thanks for the excellent report! -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 8 11:24:30 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA28393 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:24:28 -0700 Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA28348 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:24:16 -0700 Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id OAA25774; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 14:23:43 -0400 Date: 08 Aug 95 14:22:21 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Interesting news from Griggs Message-ID: <950808182221_72240.1256_EHB35-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: >INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com I had an interesting talk with Jim Griggs today. A customer has contracted with him for a new application. The customer manufactures heaters for industrial apps that calls for temperatures ranging up to 400 and 500 F. The customer uses hot oil as the circulating fluid (the thermal mass) in gas or electric heaters. Oil does have to be pressurized, the way water does. The customer has two problems with conventional heaters: 1. This oil can be ignited under some circumstances, so an open flame is dangerous and so is an electric short. 2. When the temperature of oil is raised above a certain amount, it "cracks." That is, it changes chemically and it is no good any more. With conventional heaters, small, local hot spots can exceed the maximum recommended temperature, cracking small amounts of oil. Both of these problems are solved with the Hydrosonic Pump. Jim is testing a new model pump for this customer with a somewhat different configuration of holes and with special gaskets, seals and other fittings suitable for the high temperature oil. So far he has only tested the performance of the oil heaters with the Dranetz. He has not had a chance to hook up the dynamometer. The Dranetz data indicates that the device is producing considerably more excess at high temperatures than it does with water. He did not give me the numbers. He is hoping to hook up the dynamometer soon, perhaps by the end of the month. The customer does not care about the fact that the Pump is over-unity, but Jim and I do. We want to know more. I have been planning to go out there with Marshall Dudley after the dynamometer is hooked up, but if the o-u is big enough maybe I should go when they are still using the Dranetz only. The customer wants a test rig transported to Florida and up north to New York (I think it was). That test rig does not need the dynamometer, because the customer does not care about o-u. Hence, the delay. I am not surprised that high temperatures appear to enhance the reaction. He has also been testing a Pump attached to a good sized internal combustion engine salvaged from a pickup truck. This is for another customer, who wants to use the Pump as the brake on large scale dynamometers used to test things like helicopter engines. In this application the o-u performance makes no difference. In fact, it is a liability, because the customer wants a brake that consumes the least amount of water. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 8 11:37:08 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA01133 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:37:05 -0700 Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA00995 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:36:35 -0700 Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id OAA15186; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 14:36:03 -0400 Date: 08 Aug 95 14:28:02 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Meant to say NOT Message-ID: <950808182801_72240.1256_EHB75-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: >INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com I meant to say: "Oil does NOT have to be pressurized, the way water does. . ." I think Jim said it is running at only 5 p.s.i. pressure at 300 deg F. Something like that. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 8 11:46:46 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA03109 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:46:44 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA03081 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:46:35 -0700 Received: from d205.aa.net (d205.aa.net [204.157.220.205]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA01155 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:46:31 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:46:31 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508081846.LAA01155 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: Various Matters - 8/8/95 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Gene, As an additional note to my warnings about the pressure relief issue, I have to relate a very short story. I was working on a pneumatic system once that required bleeding the pressurized air out first, and then disconnecting a pipe. The pipe was connected to a high pressure capable, hydraulics type hose on one end, and had a coupling on the other end. The pipe itself was around 10 feet long, and 1 inch in diameter. I had done this several times before, and I had always waited for the pressure gauge to drop completely to zero before I undid the coupler. One time I got impatient with the amount of time it was taking for the air to bleed out, and when the gauge reached the 10 PSI level, I figured that it would be OK to go ahead and undo the coupler. I had one hand gripping the pipe, and when the coupler broke loose that pipe whipped around on that flexible hose, and almost took my arm off. I was amazed at first until I realized that 10 PSI in a 10 ft length of pipe was still alot of compressed air. It's the same with pressurized steam. With your setup, you are just on the verge of creating steam, and you really don't know how much steam or how high the pressure will go if you do create steam. Your "advisors" may be experts, but they may not be seeing the entire picture. Even if you swap out your relief valve for one with a higher rating you will have at least some control over where the breach will occur, and that can only be confirmed by testing. It's always better to play it safe. -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 8 12:15:56 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA08849 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 12:15:50 -0700 Received: from GAV.GAT.COM (GAV.GAT.COM [192.5.166.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA08822 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 12:15:42 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: <199508081915.MAA08822 mail.eskimo.com> Received: from [198.133.146.230] by 198.133.146.230 with SMTP; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 12:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 12:19:32 -0800 To: vortex-L mail.eskimo.com Subject: Pressure systems Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gene: Systems operating with gases under pressure (and that includes steam) should always be tested or certified. This is because compressed gas stores a lot of energy, which can accelerate large fragments to high speeds. The usual way to test boilers, pressure vessels, etc, so I am told, is to fill the void COMPLETLY (no gas void!) with water (or other safe liquid) and raise the hydraulic pressure to the desired test pressure. If something leaks or breaks, nothing gets accelerated to high speed, because the available energy is low. (Available energy is approximately pressure X volume change, and volume change of a (nearly) incompressible liquid is small.) By certified I am referring to commercial compressed gas tanks and cylinders, pressure regulators, etc., which have been designed to standards, tested elsewhere and "certified", and have not been abused or misused. All closed systems should have some foolproof means to limit the maximum pressure that can be developed, to the test pressure reduced by a safety factor. I am ignorant of what the safety factor should be for steam. Maybe Mike Huffman knows. Michael J. Schaffer schaffer gav.gat.com Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4146 General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 8 14:03:31 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA00985 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 14:03:23 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA00914 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 14:03:02 -0700 Received: from net-1-167.eden.com (net-1-210.eden.com [199.171.21.210]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id QAA00372; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 16:02:56 -0500 Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 16:02:56 -0500 Message-Id: <199508082102.QAA00372 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Belorus tests X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gene, here's an excerpt: >*1. In eight tests, an index "Kilocal. / (KiloWatt * Minute)" in the case of >the Small heat Circuit, without considering of a steam generation factor, was >in the range 8.0 to. 11.6 Kilocal. / (KiloWatt * Minute) that allows to get a >Coefficient of Efficiency in the range 1.5 to 2.4 when the device works in an >intermittent mode "Heating up Cooling down" 1:2 (in time intervals) Indeed they must be using this 1:2 thing as a correction factor....or something. It should be noted that 14.331 Kilocal/KiloWatt*Minute is UNITY. Thus none of the values between 8.0 and 11.6 kc/kwm are over-unity at face value. Do you have any further info on how they were making their C.O.P. calculations? Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 8 14:49:41 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA10310 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 14:49:37 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA10259 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 14:49:24 -0700 Received: from d208.aa.net (d208.aa.net [204.157.220.208]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA13942 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 14:49:21 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 14:49:21 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508082149.OAA13942 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Yet Another Knuke Note Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gene, Please pardon my sporadic postings, but these observations are coming to me as I am trying to do ten things at once. The other thing that I wanted you to consider about your set up is that responsible manufacturers in this country at least always do "destructive testing" on their products before they offer them to the public for sale. In other words, they run the equipment way over the recommended operating spec in order to purposely find out where, when, and how it will fail. There is no doubt that the manufacturers' liability insurers require that this be done before they will agree to insure these companies. As a direct result, we tend to have a smaller number of failures from the products that we buy. With a device from a foreign company that may or may not even be required to have liability insurance, this leaves the responsibility for your own personal safety totally up to you. This is the ultimate reality in any country, of course, but since we live in a country that requires all of this expensive, preemptive testing we sometimes tend to forget that fact. The same mentality that forces us to extensively test potentially dangerous products is especially appropriate in the nuclear power industry. Jed has gone on about the number of welfare queens in white coats, but when you alter a design on a nuclear reactor, I for one would like to see that alteration scrutinized by all of the best minds that money can buy before that change is implemented. Any unexpected results could affect millions of people instantly. Even small design changes should be implemented only after years of study and testing. That is the only responsible way to operate. It is also the part of the industry that gets the most pressure from the budget analysts when cash is tight. Before this turns into a full blown tirade:-) I'll sign off. -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 8 15:58:57 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA23928 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 15:58:55 -0700 Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA23908 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 15:58:49 -0700 Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA29079; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 18:58:17 -0400 Date: 08 Aug 95 18:55:58 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Subject: cookie cutter baffle Message-ID: <950808225557_100060.173_EHK81-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gene's report describing the "cookie-cutter" baffles downstream reminds me of some research done in combustion chambers years ago. It was found that to get maximum turbulence downstream of perforated plate in a stream of fluid, the shape of the perforations should be triangular. This seems to be in line with the cookie cutter design which probably is there to maximize the turbulence, and therefore the degree of shear and thus the cavitation potential. I would expect the shape of the baffle to have sharp cornered triangular teeth. I'm inclined to agree with the statement by one of the team that we are not being given the full specification of the Yusmar - and I await Chris' next visit with interest. Norman Horwood. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 8 17:47:56 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA10595 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 17:47:53 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA10571 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 17:47:46 -0700 Received: from s2c0p0.aa.net (s2c0p0.aa.net [204.157.220.64]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA26156 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 17:47:30 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 17:47:30 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508090047.RAA26156 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: Pressure systems Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Gene: > Systems operating with gases under pressure (and that includes steam) >should always be tested or certified. This is because compressed gas >stores a lot of energy, which can accelerate large fragments to high >speeds. Thanks for backing me up on this, sometimes I wonder if I am just not expressing myself the right way. I feel like an idiot sometimes repeating these things over and over. > > The usual way to test boilers, pressure vessels, etc, so I am told, is >to fill the void COMPLETLY (no gas void!) with water (or other safe liquid) >and raise the hydraulic pressure to the desired test pressure. If >something leaks or breaks, nothing gets accelerated to high speed, because >the available energy is low. (Available energy is approximately pressure X >volume change, and volume change of a (nearly) incompressible liquid is >small.) This method of testing makes sense, and is yet another thing I did not know. We always used Nitrogen to pressure test the Freon lines on the Polar Bear. You really can't use water in Freon lines because it would take too long to completely remove, and any residual moisture would cause havoc if it froze an expansion valve or made it into the compressor itself. The head pressures on this large scale type freezer system would sometimes go as high as 250PSI, so we would pressure test to around 600PSI, and look for leaks with soap bubbles or a sniffer. The reason we tested so high brings up another thing that needs to be warned about. Royer told me from the outset of my working with him that all valves need to be opened and closed very slowly on any pressurized system, but especially where there is a large temperature difference between one side of the valve and the other. Kind of like the "small loop - large loop" set up that the Yusmars are mostly configured with. The degree of importance of this varies with the kind of valve, but is applicable to all valves in general. First of all, there is the "water hammer" effect of closing a valve too quickly. This doesn't happen as readily with gate valves as with ball valves because the threading of the gate valve stem prevents any sudden change in pressure. With ball valves, you can crank down on the handle so fast that the liquid or gas that is flowing at high speed suddenly is halted and the resulting impact can split the seams of the pipe. I think that I've mentioned this phenomenon before, and I said that it is much more common with cheap "roll welded" pipe as opposed to bored pipe. I've seen this happen with brand spanking new pipe at pressures under 40PSI. The pipe gauge was schedule 40 steel as well. I've seen it several times. I hope that you are using gate valves in your setup. If you are not, just be sure to close the ball valves very slowly to allow the pressure on the high side to be gradually increased. Secondly, when the temperature difference is large between the two sides of a valve, a sudden opening of the valve can crack the valve or split the pipe adjacent to it. Royer opened an expansion valve too quickly on a Freon system once and it blew apart in his hand. The resulting rush of Freon froze his hand completely solid down to his wrist. They medivaced him to a hospital immediately, and the doctors wanted to take his hand off right away. He refused to let them do it, and instead let it thaw out gradually in warm water baths. He said that it was the most painful thing that he had ever experienced. He didn't lose his hand, although he still experiences a bit of pain years later. The temperature difference in his case was less than 150 degrees F., so you could be playing in that same ballpark. Open and close all your valves very slowly. > > By certified I am referring to commercial compressed gas tanks and >cylinders, pressure regulators, etc., which have been designed to >standards, tested elsewhere and "certified", and have not been abused or >misused. or old, or rusted, or etc. etc. etc. Another factor to consider with closed systems with steel pipes, water, and air mixtures is the possibility of rust blockages in areas that would catch and collect rust. I've had it happen with pneumatic systems in less that 2 years after I installed them. The dangerous part is that the piping still looks brand new on the outside, and the pressure gauges won't indicate anything wrong with the system until it completely plugs up in one part or another. You just notice a diminishing of flow rate until you get no flow at all. You can also think that you have adequately bled the system off, but if there is no pressure gauge in the blocked portion, you won't realize that it is still pressurized until you start to disassemble it. Then you are in for the big surprise. > > All closed systems should have some foolproof means to limit the maximum >pressure that can be developed, to the test pressure reduced by a safety >factor. I am ignorant of what the safety factor should be for steam. >Maybe Mike Huffman knows. > One thing that should be made absolutely clear is that Mike Huffman knows almost nothing about anything! When I first got started on this and made the announcement about my device, I got letters from people addressing me everything from Doctor to Professor Huffman. At first I was amused, but then realized that they were serious. If anyone has any illusions about my "expertise" in any field at all, let me tell you that I am not an expert at anything. I've done so many things wrong in my life, and survived that I'm just amazed to be here. When I see other people doing things wrong, I feel compelled to tell them about it. Believe me, if I even have the slightest inclination that I think that I know what I'm talking about, I am quick to tell you everything I know, but that is no substitute for real expertise. >Michael J. Schaffer >schaffer gav.gat.com >Tel: 619-455-2841 >Fax: 619-455-4146 >General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA > > > From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 8 17:51:48 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA11235 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 17:51:43 -0700 Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA11147 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 17:51:19 -0700 Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id UAA19591; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 20:50:47 -0400 Date: 08 Aug 95 20:47:41 EDT From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Pressure and Calculations Message-ID: <950809004741_76570.2270_HHB87-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortexians: Thanks for all your helpful suggestions about safety, etc. While doing these experiments, I was ever mindful of Andy Riley (who was killed at SRI on Jan 2, 1993), but not mindful enough, apparently. Michael Schaeffer wrote: "How are you pressurizing the loop and then regulating it as the water and components heat and expand?" The loop is pressuized by the continuous operation of the submersible pump -- on top of the pre-existing static pressure produced by the outside well pump upon filling the loop with water. The pressure stays essentially constant with no active pressure regulation. There is little expansion of any kind going on. Scott asked abut how the Belarus calulated their O-U. That is a somewhat open question, but Scott is absolutely correct about 14.0 kilocalories/kilowatt-minute being Eout/Ein= 1.0. I figured that out very early and then tried to see why the report's high-level apparent O-U conclusions seemed to contradict the data in the table, at least at foirst glance *without the duty factor of 33%*. Here is my figuring for the small loop: Row # Kilocalories/kilowatt-minute For O-U Multiply by 3 for 33% duty cycle and divide by 14.0 1 2500/(13.7 * 26) = 7.02 1.5 2 2000/(13.2 * 20) = 7.58 1.62 3 2100/13.9 * 23) = 6.57 1.41 4 etc 1.83 5 1.21 6 1.54 7 1.79 8 1.94 9 1.77 10 ----- 11 1.62 12 1.32 13 .99 14 1.84 1.53 1.59 15 1.35 16 0.95 1.49 0.40 ?? 17 4.22 4.93 Similar caclulations for the large loop" 1 1.47 2 1.39 3 2.15 4 3.20 5 1.75 6 7.36 7 1.92 8 2.24 9 8.27 10 ----- 11 1.77 12 1.85 These are interesting ratios in some cases approaching 10, but I still do not see how the tabulations agree with the conclusions made in the body of the report. Furthermore, I do not know how they made the measurements of kilocalories in the loop -- other than by the obvious means of using the loop temperature times some estimate of the water and steel masses. Gene From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 8 21:14:34 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA16958 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 21:14:31 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA16875 for ; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 21:14:07 -0700 Received: from net-1-202.eden.com (net-1-202.eden.com [199.171.21.202]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id XAA20986; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 23:13:58 -0500 Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 23:13:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199508090413.XAA20986 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: DUTY CYCLE? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gene, I don't get this "duty cycle" thing. What that term usually means is that the heat generator only runs some of the time...like the heater in your house when controlled by a thermostat. If that is the case, then "duty cycle" should not affect the results at all! Example: Say we have a generator that produces 100 joules of heat per hour when fed with 100 joules of electrical energy per hour. Let's say we run this generator for 10 hours. At the end of that time, we have 1000 joules of heat produced and we've put in 1000 joules of electrical energy. Unity efficiency, right? Now, let's run that same generator with a 25% duty cycle for 10 hours. At the end of that time, we've gotten 250 joules of heat and we've put in 250 joules of electrical power. It's still unity efficiency. - Scott Little, EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 9 06:26:25 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA13817 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 06:26:16 -0700 Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA13756 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 06:25:56 -0700 Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id JAA05288; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 09:25:22 -0400 Date: 09 Aug 95 09:21:31 EDT From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: Duty Cycle Message-ID: <950809132131_76570.2270_HHB72-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott, I was fully aware of your point about "duty cycle," in your post: "I don't get this "duty cycle" thing. What that term usually means is that the heat generator only runs some of the time...like the heater in your house when controlled by a thermostat. If that is the case, then "duty cycle" should not affect the results at all!" It's just that Potapov, in his instruction manual, and these folks in Belarus appear to be implying that there may be the equivalent of a P&F "heat after death" phenomenon involved. If there is some kind of lingering heat production (hard for me to believe, but who knows?!) after pump shut off, then duty cycle would be very important. Otherwise, you are absolutely correct that turning the thing on and off should make no difference. If the numbers in the chart for kilocalories in the loop were obtained by toggling the pump power in that "1:2" fashion, then O-U seems to be implied. If power toggling was not done, then there is O-U only in a few of the results shown in my tables. If there were NO IMPORTANCE to this on-off operation, then I hardly think that anybody would go to the trouble of using it or discussing it. Perhaps this analogy would help: Take the claims of Randy Mills et al of O-U in nickel-based, ordinary water electrolytic cells. They get high O-U by pulsing the input power. Whatever magic is going on on those electrodes is certainly enhanced in its overall effect by pulsing, i.e. having less integrated input power. Also, the non-equilibrium effect of pulsing itself may have some importance to the electrode processes. Incidentally, I have good information that a researcher at MIT Lincoln Laboratory, who wishes not to be identified, has verified Mills' results many times at high O-U ratios -- like 10/1. Too bad the fellow requires an "explanation" before going public. This field is Catch-22 all the way!! Gene From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 9 07:26:57 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA23371 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 07:26:55 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA23357 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 07:26:50 -0700 Received: from net-1-147.eden.com (net-1-147.eden.com [199.171.21.147]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id JAA09240; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 09:26:46 -0500 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 09:26:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199508091426.JAA09240 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: MIT Lincoln X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:21 AM 8/9/95 EDT, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: >Incidentally, I have good >information that a researcher at MIT Lincoln Laboratory, who wishes not to be >identified, has verified Mills' results many times at high O-U ratios -- like >10/1. Too bad the fellow requires an "explanation" before going public. This >field is Catch-22 all the way!! Gene, maybe we can supply the "explanation"! Can you get a message to this guy? If so, please invite him to call Puthoff ASAP (512-346-9947). He has been working on a pretty solid theory wherein the H-Ni system acts as a non-conservative ZPF transducer...i.e. gets a net gain of energy from interactions with the zero-point field. Isn't that right, Hal? Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 9 08:15:39 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA02005 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 08:15:33 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA01971 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 08:15:22 -0700 Received: from s1c1p7.aa.net (s1c1p7.aa.net [204.157.220.179]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA10593 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 08:15:09 -0700 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 08:15:09 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508091515.IAA10593 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: Duty Cycle Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A >Scott, I was fully aware of your point about "duty cycle," in your post: > > >If there were NO IMPORTANCE to this on-off operation, then I hardly think that >anybody would go to the trouble of using it or discussing it. > >Perhaps this analogy would help: Take the claims of Randy Mills et al of O-U >in nickel-based, ordinary water electrolytic cells. They get high O-U by >pulsing the input power. Whatever magic is going on on those electrodes is >certainly enhanced in its overall effect by pulsing, i.e. having less >integrated input power. Also, the non-equilibrium effect of pulsing itself may >have some importance to the electrode processes. Incidentally, I have good >information that a researcher at MIT Lincoln Laboratory, who wishes not to be >identified, has verified Mills' results many times at high O-U ratios -- like >10/1. Too bad the fellow requires an "explanation" before going public. This >field is Catch-22 all the way!! > >Gene > To All, As we all know, when an electrical switch makes contact there is, at the moment immediately before the actual contact, a spark that crosses the air gap between the two contact points. During that very short time, a much larger than usual amount of current passes through the air. Impurities in the air are BURNED, and release the energy that is chemically stored in those impurities. If the switch is located within the area that is being measured for heat generation, i.e. the calorimeter, the heat from this burning will be measured. If the power consumption is being measured by a digital based sampling method, the the actual peak current is very unlikely to be recorded as the sampling rate can, in no way, keep up with the actual curvature of the rise and fall of the actual current consumption. Therefore there are two ways that the Mills data could be misinterpreted. I am not familiar with the protocols used to measure the Mills device, but I would hope that these things are being taken into consideration. I would think that the power consumption would have to be measured by having a power source that had a known ability to charge, store, and release a known amount of voltage and current, such as a battery. Then the amount of TIME taken to DRAIN that known amount of energy would have to be measured with a pulsating application and compared to the time taken to drain the same power storage device used with a nonpulsating application. As far as the "heat after death" corollation, I don't think that it is the same thing that P&F are proposing at all. Consider the fact that when a steam bubble collapses on a metal surface, the surface at that immediate location reaches a temperature high enough to, at the very least, melt the material. Could not the heat be high enough to burn the impurities in the water and in the surface of the material? Could not the heat be high enough in that very small location and duration of time to burn the surface of the material itself? This would release the energy that is chemically stored in the impurities or the material, and would explain the excesses quite handily. You would be BURNING a fuel. This whole excess heat thing could be chemical couldn't it? (billb, I'm not yelling, really, I'm just emphasizing the keywords:-) -Knuke "Your Favorite CyberVillage Idiot" P.S. To ENECO and the researcher at MIT: Rome burned to the ground, while Caesar fiddled around. Just release the data, and I'll explain it forya:-) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 23:46:44 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA26108 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 23:46:27 -0700 Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA26065 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 23:46:14 -0700 Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id CAA01129; Sat, 12 Aug 1995 02:45:41 -0400 Date: 12 Aug 95 02:44:27 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Re: My heart sinks, it really does. Message-ID: <950812064427_100060.173_EHK50-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael, >> This makes me think that it is possibly not steam at all, but >> partially steam with decomposed hydrgen and oxygen gases mixed in. If your right then stand well back behind a blast wall, cos there is a big bomb waiting to 'splode!!! Unless the recomb. happens within a micro-structured catalyst at a safe speed, probably what is happening in some of the Ni or Pd electrodes in other versions, then the mixture, which might be stoichometric, is very unstable. Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 00:30:20 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA00993 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 12 Aug 1995 00:30:18 -0700 Received: from arl-img-2.compuserve.com (arl-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.7.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA00971 for ; Sat, 12 Aug 1995 00:30:12 -0700 Received: by arl-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id DAA06393; Sat, 12 Aug 1995 03:29:39 -0400 Date: 12 Aug 95 03:28:44 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Chris's tests Message-ID: <950812072844_100060.173_EHK5-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris asked how a disc watt-hour meter would react to a pulsed power flow. Well, in my experience having studied such devices at close quarters over many years, the inertia of even a domestic type meter is very low,and I have observed the acceleration and deceleration of the disc with rapidly changing load. The reaction of the disc is very, very fast - almost a square wave response. The main cause of delayed response to a step change in load is probably the inductance of the circuitry, rather than the mechanical inertia of the rotating disc. I would therefore expect the energy record of a watt-hour meter of standard design to be unaffected to any measurable degree by a low frequency pulsing of the power being measured. If we are talking of audio frequencies then there may be some distortion, but even that should give an RMS integration of the overall energy flow through the meter. As to the method of testing the Yusmar heater. Where there is no controlled lab. environment for the testing, perhaps the only acceptable approach is comparison using a closed system. If the Yusmar is run for a measured time with flows and temperatures measured as well as the energy consumption in watt-hours, followed by an immersion heater running at the same energy as the previously measured input to the Yusmar and flow rates, then the resulting temperatures will give the desired comparison. Assuming that the same set-up is used in both tests, and the starting conditions are the same (even if it takes a couple of days to re-establish this after the first run) then the comparison will be valid. Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 04:42:19 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA18181 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 12 Aug 1995 04:42:07 -0700 Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA18173 for ; Sat, 12 Aug 1995 04:42:03 -0700 Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id HAA24863; Sat, 12 Aug 1995 07:41:32 -0400 Date: 12 Aug 95 07:39:40 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Not sure yet. Message-ID: <950812113940_100433.1541_BHG58-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Knuke, I don't yet know when I'm leaving. I'm very glad I didn't leave before I saw your recent postings. It seems to me, whatever set-up I find in St Petersburg, I am heading into severe problems. If the machine is indeed "as purchased from Potapov", (essential, in my view) I understand it will be set up as a heating system in line with Potapov's printed installation guide, and NOT in a way which anybody THINKS is better. At least my instincts were right on that. I obviously could do a 'static' calorimetry test, and see how fast the system heats up, then do the basic calculations (by the way, I've not yet looked up the specific heat of iron, anybody got it to hand?). Somehow I don't think that will show o-u, even if the machine is in fact o-u. At a guess, I would want to be looking at the power required to keep the radiators hot. That would mean measuring the power consumed over a prolonged period, as the system thermostat turned the motor on and off. That sounds like a calorimetry nightmare, because I'd have to set up an equivalent system and either feed the same amount of power into it and see if the sawtooth graph of temperature was much lower - or see how much power were needed to get a graph which was almost identical. The equivalent system would have to have either a constriction which behaved like the Yusmar, or an resistive heater and a pump. Or (if desperate) I could try Jed's idea of seeing how long the water took to cool down. Obviously, the constrictor would be much better, but either sounds pretty hellish to set up in no time flat in somebody else's lab in Russia. AT PRESENT, I CAN SEE NO CLEAR ROUTE EITHER TO GETTING AN 'EQUIVALENT' SYSTEM, OR OF MAKING A REALLY DEFINITIVE TEST IF I HAD ONE. Yet I would not wish to waste a trip by not testing the thing properly. I'm grateful for Norman's comments on wattmeters. Myself, I'd have thought that if the motor only switches on every few minutes fro a few minutes, the start-up surge error would be negigible. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 07:41:44 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA01633 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 12 Aug 1995 07:41:43 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA01620 for ; Sat, 12 Aug 1995 07:41:38 -0700 Received: from net-1-173.eden.com (net-1-173.eden.com [199.171.21.173]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id JAA07326 for ; Sat, 12 Aug 1995 09:41:32 -0500 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 09:41:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199508121441.JAA07326 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Testing challenge X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris, I agree with Norman on watthour meters. Everything I could find about them indicates that a really stupendous engineering effort has gone into refining them to a state where they reliably give 1% accuracy over a very wide range of power factors, duty cycles, operating temperatures, etc. On my system the motor starting inrush was rather high and about 2/3's of a disc revolution would occur during it. To first order at least, any "shortchange" that occured due to disc inertia at the beginning of a square load pulse would get "paid back" by the same disc inertia at the end of the load pulse. Make damn sure that the thing is connected properly, however. Mine is a 3 ph meter intended for WYE-connected loads which my motor is. I was playing around with it one day and I tried disconnecting the neutral line from the motor. It continued to run as if nothing had happened but the watthour meter slowed down to about half speed!!! I questioned the mfgr about this and they said, "Oh yes, it gets its voltage information from each hot leg to neutral so, if neutral is not connected to anything, it's not referenced right". I guess this makes sense but I must admit that I am still confused by the various implementations of multi-phase AC power. Also, typical watthour meters have a magnetic bearing (radial repulsion type) for the disc axle and MUST be mounted vertically (like they are on the outside of your house) to operate properly. You're going to want to count disc revolutions. The dials that the meter-man reads are a bit too coarse unless you want to run really long tests. On mine, the meter constant (I believe it is called "K sub h") is 10.8 watthours per revolution of the disc. This means the disc revolves 92.593 times before the first dial moves one division (1 kwh). One revolution (10.8 watthours) is 38,880 joules...a substantial dose of energy. You must learn what the meter constant is for the meter you'll be using...it should be printed on the face. It'd be real nice to have a reliable assistant to do this counting. It's terribly boring and you can't watch anything else at all. We finally built a "device" to count the revs for us (it is a terrible kludge that undoubtedly would not work on any other meter but ours...otherwise I'd offer it to you!) Your calorimetry problem is a bit sticky, isn't it? I favor the direct comparison between the Yusmar and a simple restriction using the same pump for both tests. If the restriction is a valve, you should be able to load the pump the same in both tests and then it'll be pretty clear whether the Yusmar is different. You could start both tests from ambient temp and just record temp (say at the outlet of the Yusmar), time, and kwh consumed. A plot of temp vs time should look like a capacitor charging curve. The initial slope will tell you the initial heat output and the final equilibrium temperature will tell the rest. You might want to try two sets of tests: with and without the thermostat. When using the thermostat, let it function normally during both tests (Yusmar vs restriction) and just dutifully record the three parameters. If the Yusmar is "doing its thing" it'll be quite apparent. Be sure to record an adequate period after things have equilibrated. If the Yusmar is generating more heat than the restriction, its duty cycle will be correspondingly shorter than that of the restriction. BTW, the specific heat of Fe is 0.44 joules/(gram*C). In these units, water is 4.187 so Fe is 0.105 of water, typical of common metals. I don't know how you are going to manage replacing the Yusmar with a valve. In most of the photos I've seen, the Yusmar systems appear to be WELDED! Surely they'll have a union in the pump discharge line... Hey, since they're supposed to be looking for work over there, how about requesting the services of a genuine plumber during your tests? Explain what you want, then do the Yusmar tests while he goes out to get everything needed to install the valve in place of the Yusmar. Presumably, he could cut into an all-welded system, thread the cut ends of the pipe and install unions and fittings and what-not and shortly it'd be done. If you get any complaints, you could explain that you know a dozen British plumbers that could do the job blindfolded... (I'd be hard-pressed to find one around here...they're all glue-sniffing plastic jockeys now). Chris, you are facing quite a challenge here but I know you can handle it. Just pretend that we're all there with you constantly needling about the precision and accuracy of each test...you'll get the right answers. - Scott Little, EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 10 00:02:22 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA14536 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 00:00:58 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA14513 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 00:00:51 -0700 Received: from s1c0p7.aa.net (s1c0p7.aa.net [204.157.220.171]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA10561 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 00:00:31 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 00:00:31 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508100700.AAA10561 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Knukier Burning Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Knukier Burning. I like it alot:-) Ron says: When the deuterium drops below a critical value the >reactions will turn off, as Robert reported. > >Once you have an active Yusmar you can check this by measuring the 3He/4He >ratio and correlate it to the energy production and the depletion of >deuterium. Knuke is right that noble gases are difficult to contain >however the helium ratio should be anomalous even if the total amount is >low. Adding a controlled small amount of neon and argon would give a >reference against which to measure the helium. > >Burning water? O.K. Knuke, but not chemical burning. Knukier burning! > Ron, It must also be remembered that one of the requirements of the reaction is that the water be aereated or have air in the system. I agree that Julian Schwinger's No. 1 hypothesis is very attractive IF the temperatures and pressures necessary to induce a fusion reaction can be proven to be present during the collapse of the steam bubble. It is especially attractive in light of the fact that not only argon and neon are present in small quantities in aereated water, but also radon and the rest of the noble gases. Putterman's calculation that the acceleration rate of the bubble collapse could be reaching relativistic speeds under the influence of the seemingly endless power of the vacuum, and providing the necessary pressures and temps would reenforce Schwinger's hypothesis. A measurement of the deuterium level before and after the water goes "dead" would be a good sign that fusion, indeed, could be the source of the excess heat. A Helium measurement along with a Deuterium measurement would be possible only in a specially designed Yusmar, but would definitely be a better proof of the occurrence of a fusion reaction. Obviously, those very expensive and sophisticated measurements won't be made until the excess heat itself is verified. Unless, that is, someone decided to dump a billion dollars into pure science research. Wouldn't that be nice? Bill Gates are you reading this? :-) It has been made apparent to me that the very act of performing a credible job of calorimetry is beyond the scope of many researchers in this industry. I know that might sound cruel, but many of the investigators of this phenomena seem to be learning about power measurement, motor efficiency, plumbing, and heat capture for the first time. And these are the simple things. I guess there's nothing wrong with that, except that any "conclusions" that may be reached by these investigators will be far from definitive in the minds of most scientists for a long time. If we continue to learn to perfect these simple protocols now, perhaps in time we can say with absolute certainty that at least our calorimetry is sound. Until that time comes, speculating on the ZPF, Incredible Shrinking Atom, Wavey Wave (I really liked that one), Knukier Burning, and even Schwinger's Hypothesis is, in my mind, just a bit premature. It could also be argued that long before the temps and pressures necessary to induce fusion were reached in a collapsing gas bubble, there would be sufficient energy present to chemically burn any carbon based impurities that were present in the water or the material that the device was made of. In this scenario, the chemical burning would not only explain the relationship between the Sonoluminescence and the Blue Steam Phenomena better, it would also prevent the complete collapse of the bubble itself. The relatavistic speeds that Putterman was predicting would never actually be reached as the bubble would collapse only until the burning occurred, and then reexpand with the additional heat from the brief, momentary, very local fire. This expansion and contraction would be pulsating in nature which would also correspond with his findings. This could be tested for by measuring the total amount of air present in the system before and after the water goes "dead". Potopov instructed that the water be "pure filtered H20". This made me wonder at the time that I read it if he really meant ONLY H20, but obviously with the addition of air, he couldn't have. It has still not been established how much air is necessary in the system for the reaction to take place. This now makes me wonder what he used to filter the "pure H20". Could it have been a carbon filter perchance? Or maybe he filters it through cotton, or through some fibrous derivitive of a Petroleum Product. Oh No!:-0 These cookie cutter things, could they be what was referred to as "the little power ring"? Does Potapov sell these things separately? Are they in the patent text? Why didn't any of our guys get them? Are they even mentioned in the instructions? Does Yuri plan on doing any infomertials in America when he gets here in September? Will the TV stations give him a timeslot between the "Breast Enlargement Through Hypnosis" one, and the one where the guy who sells fruit driers, sprays his bald spot with paint and combs his remaining hair over it? (These Products Are Not Sold in Stores!) With the banning of the manufacture of his device in Moldova, does Yuri have a return ticket? Should Gene or Jed start cleaning out their garages? Does he eat much? Does he snore? There have been so many goofy unknowns and misconceptions surrounding his device that I can only shake my head. It's getting late, and I'm getting Knukier and Knukier. When I say my prayers tonight I'll be thanking God that there is only one of me:-) -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 10 07:55:51 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA05935 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 07:55:45 -0700 Received: from GAV.GAT.COM (GAV.GAT.COM [192.5.166.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA05899 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 07:55:35 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: <199508101455.HAA05899 mail.eskimo.com> Received: from [198.133.146.230] by 198.133.146.230 with SMTP; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 7:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 07:59:30 -0800 To: vortex-L mail.eskimo.com Subject: Belorus Test Report Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I received independently (via Jed Rothwell) a copy of the fax of the report of the Bobruisk Machine Mfg. Plant tests of Yusmar devices in heating applications. General Atomics had it translated from Russian. I shared our translation with Scott Little some time ago. Our translation is rougher than Valery Milgrom's, and the nuances are different in places, but there are no big differences between the two. A few points on translation: "Hydraulic elevator" seems to mean "jet pump". "Adjustable orfice plates" could also be translated as "throttles". "Small loop" seems to refer to the pump-Yusmar loop. "Large loop" refers to the radiator loop. See Yusmar Instructions for loops. Gene's transmitted version of the table omitted line 8 of the original. Also, some of the "rows" actually contain multiple rows of data; these are multiple runs with the same setup. To help you identify columns, I offer these identifications for the FIRST ROW: Heat energy, sm. loop = 2500 kcal Heat energy, lg. loop = 11300 kcal Temperature rise, sm. loop = 104 Temperature rise, lg. loop = 30 COP (Milgrom's translation; we can't read on our copy) = 0.5 Electric power, sm. loop heatup test = 13.7 kW Electric power, lg. loop heatup test = 14.0 kW Time, sm. loop = 26 min Time, lg. loop = 118 min Index = Heat energy/(power * time), sm. loop = 7.3 kcal/kW/min Index = Heat energy/(power * time), lg. loop = 6.7 kcal/kW/min Small loop volume/lg loop volume = 16/33 (units not specified) Volume ratio expressed as percent = (4.8%) To help you identify rows, I offer these identifications for the FIRST COLUMN: Row Data 1 2500 2 2000 3 2100 4 11200 5 2400 6 9000 7 10000 8 10000 67000 86 57 0.7/44.1 47.2 25 110 9.2 13.0 80/1100 (7.2%) (This is the missing row.) (Also, lg. loop volume = 1100 in rows 6 through 9.) 9 10000 10 (blank) 11 3000 12 3100 13 2500 14 2400 2500 2600 15 1320 16 3200 2500 2100 17 11300 11000 18 10000 This test report does not describe the test configuration, the proceedure nor how some of the measurements are made. (In contrast, Scott Little's reports are models of how a test report should be written.) The numbers in the table are inconsistent with numbers mentioned in the text; some data "massaging" seems to have occurred between the data in the table and the claims in the text. Rows 9 and 10 appear to be control cases. Case 9 has a valve instead of the Yusmar. Case 10 has some kind of electric heater. Case 9 gives a sm. loop performance index of 8.3 kcal/kW/min and a lg. loop index of 48.0 kcal/kW/min. Case 10 was run only in the large loop and gives 6.6 kcal/kW/min. The high index of 48.0 kcal/kW/min versus the other two much lower indices makes one suspect that the tests were unreliable. The two low indices are comparable with the other small loop indices, which would then argue for no OU, at least within the degree of uncertainty of these tests. The 48.0 kcal/kW/min is higher than all but one of the other large loop cases (case 18). This could be interpreted as: 1) most large loop runs are far under unity; 2) most large loop runs have large unaccounted heat losses; 3) the valve was OU in the large loop control case. Michael J. Schaffer schaffer gav.gat.com Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4146 General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 10 12:28:08 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA29259 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 12:28:05 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA29210 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 12:27:53 -0700 Received: from net-1-159.eden.com (net-1-159.eden.com [199.171.21.159]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id OAA06125 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 14:27:46 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 14:27:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199508101927.OAA06125 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Knuke's Observation X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Knuke, sometimes you really impress me with your observations: > It has been made apparent to me that the very act of performing a >credible job of calorimetry is beyond the scope of many researchers in this >industry. A large number of people directly or indirectly involved in this "industry" are not aware of this fact. They must think that calorimetry consists of just reading a thermometer or two. As a result, they tend to believe reports of over-unity calorimetric measurements without question...much as you and I accept the weatherman's statement of today's high temperature without question. If my own experiences with calorimetry are typical, a healthy attitude to adopt towards unusual calorimetric results would be: "Wrong until proven right." If I ever get the immense pleasure of reporting an apparent over-unity calorimetric result, you can be sure that I will have checked it backwards and forwards and sideways AND that I will be completely ready and able to demonstrate the effect at will...because I fully expect nobody else to believe it until they've seen it and measured it for themselves. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 10 14:06:59 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA20399 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 14:06:53 -0700 Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA20350 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 14:06:41 -0700 Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA13902; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 17:06:08 -0400 Date: 10 Aug 95 17:03:03 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Jottings at random. Message-ID: <950810210303_100433.1541_BHG97-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Scott, I'm still here, and the temperature is back into the general range of reducing us air-conditioning-free Brits to grease-blobs. And it hasn't rained for months, so all is burnt brown (around here anyway). I'm still waiting for the green light to go, so that I can buy equipment (basically the wattmeter, thermometers and stopwatch, plus odds and ends like sample bottles). I have asked that the system be set up according to the makers' instructions. So, in theory, it will just be a matter of printing out all of the sound and expert advice I have received - then going and seeing what the thing does. In practice . . . I somehow doubt it will be that simple. I do, however, hope that I won't be out of email or telephone range, and will report anything as soon as I have it. At worst, I'll try to stay in touch with Jed, who will post anything I can tell him. A couple of points. Ron asks with some surprise about 4He/3He measurements. As far as I recall from working it out once, a joule of energy from the 25MeV fusion of D+D only gives 10^-9 ml of 4He. OK, so we are talking megajoules, but even one MJ only gives 10^-3 ml. Even pretty posh equipment would have trouble finding that in a central heating system. Testing the D/H ratio would be easier, I will admit, but certainly the fair republic of Moldova ain't gonna be able to do even that. Next is the matter of the 'cookie cutters'. Well, that's as may be. Certainly I wasn't the only one to ask whether the thing made one hell of a noise. It doesn't. It may be that such devices work - and the Potapov one doesn't. All I can hope to do in St Pete is to find out whether the Potapov device works when assembled according to the makers' instructions. Hopefully, I will be able to clear some of the fog that has built up, but I can't promise that. Next, NEVER use the courier company TNT. Not only did they manage to lose our delivery from Potapov for 18 days, they also think NorthWest is Boston Airport (and that is the Massachusetts branch of the company). We were starting to get paranoid. But it would seem that they do it to other people. This week I heard that a little packet was sent by a UK company staffed with crash-dummies, given to TNT last Friday. Natch, the dumbos here *lost* the AWB, and TNT don't advertise their 800 number in the States. So *I* got a frantic email from the addressee, and Gene Mallove supplied the number (which is probably engraved upon his heart). TNT swore that the addressee would have the packet "sometime this week". Then they found it, it was still at their London depot. So it was the usual story - frantic faxes, arrangements for people to race to JFK to see if it was there this morning, nail-biting, grey hair, heart attacks. Finally, it isn't just Knuke who has stories. I can't compete, but I was once approaching Sandbach Chemicals (a rather dubious outfit in Cheshire) when I heard a terrible THUD. Turned out that one of those very very expensive road tankers with stainless steel tanks had been set to purge itself of fumes with its little vacuum pump. That was fine - except that the inlet was blocked. As I drew to a fascinated standstill, a group of people ran out of the building - then stood disconsolately around this enormous stomped Coke can. Laugh? I thought they'd never start. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 10 14:16:46 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA22492 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 14:16:40 -0700 Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA22435 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 14:16:25 -0700 Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA28435; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 17:15:49 -0400 Date: 10 Aug 95 17:14:08 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Replicability <> Calorimetry Message-ID: <950810211407_72240.1256_EHB47-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: >INTERNET:VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM Scott Little makes extravagant promises here, that I find highly unrealistic: "If I ever get the immense pleasure of reporting an apparent over-unity calorimetric result, you can be sure that I will have checked it backwards and forwards and sideways AND that I will be completely ready and able to demonstrate the effect at will...because I fully expect nobody else to believe it until they've seen it and measured it for themselves." I know several dozen highly professional people who have seen over-unity calorimetric results, and none of them talk like this. People like Bockris, McKubre, Pons and Fleischmann, Oriani, Arata and Patterson have all checked it backwards, forwards and sideways. They are certain of their results. Nobody has ever shown any reason to doubt their calorimetry. They measure relatively high power levels which are easy to detect, so their S/N ratios are splendid. I have studied their work carefully, talked to them at length, and I accept their results without reservations. I trust that Scott also accepts their results. I have not heard any complaints from him about any of their papers. That is all well and good, but here is the part that bothers me: "I will be completely ready and able to demonstrate the effect at will." That is one heck of a bold promise! Too bold. Also, I sense that we are confusing two different issues here: 1. Easy replicability; heat on demand. 2. Good calorimetry, and a high signal to noise ratio. For a long time Patterson had splendid replicability and rotten calorimetry. Now, thanks to Cravens, he is strong in both categories. McKubre has always had the best calorimetry on earth, but lousy replicability. Pons and Fleischmann are tops in both categories. Bockris, who is one of the most brilliant and honest people I have ever met, makes no bones about it. He says that the calorimetry is a cinch at these power levels and he is quite sure the effect is real, but if you come in to his lab for a month, you might never see a heat burst. Chances are there will be a burst at 3:00 a.m. Sunday morning when the computer is down. Scott claims here that he intends to go head-to-head with these people in the excess heat business. He intends to show up the likes of Mike McKubre and J.O.M.B. Well, maybe he can find the right kind of machine and pull it off. More power to him if he does! I would be delighted if he can come up with something half as good as Patterson. But let us be careful here. We must not be fooled into questioning results, or even rejecting results, just because they are intermittent or difficult to replicate. That is not scientific. And let us not reach for the moon! Most prototype machines are balky and unpredictable. Nobody would expect an early prototype computer, airplane, space shuttle or automobile to work easily on-demand. You had baby those things along. I remember not long ago when it took hours to get a microcomputer to say boo. When the outside observer shows up at Scott's lab to verify the measurements, he better be ready to camp out for a week waiting for Scott to tweak the thing and make it work. Scott also reports: "A large number of people directly or indirectly involved in this "industry" are not aware of this fact. They must think that calorimetry consists of just reading a thermometer or two. As a result, they tend to believe reports of over-unity calorimetric measurements without question...much as you and I accept the weatherman's statement of today's high temperature without question." I do not know anyone like that. I am not sure which "industry" Scott has in mind. Certainly not electrochemical CF. I have met everyone in the business, and I do not know anyone who just reads a thermometer or two, except maybe Ying. Perhaps Scott will tell us who he has in mind. There are some "skeptics" who have the opposite delusion. They think that calorimetry is so terribly difficult that nobody can ever reliably measure heat even at multiple-watt levels. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 10 17:05:05 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA22416 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 17:05:01 -0700 Received: from karloff.lanl.gov (karloff.lanl.gov [128.165.16.190]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA22369 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 17:04:50 -0700 Message-Id: <199508110004.RAA22369 mail.eskimo.com> Received: by karloff.lanl.gov (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA262449505; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 18:05:05 -0600 From: Ron McFee Subject: Scaling of Perceptions To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 10 Aug 95 18:05:05 MDT Cc: mcfee lanl.gov Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris, you wrote: > >A couple of points. Ron asks with some surprise about 4He/3He >measurements. As far as I recall from working it out once, a joule of >energy from the 25MeV fusion of D+D only gives 10^-9 ml of 4He. OK, so >we are talking megajoules, but even one MJ only gives 10^-3 ml. Even >pretty posh equipment would have trouble finding that in a central >heating system. Testing the D/H ratio would be easier, I will admit, >but certainly the fair republic of Moldova ain't gonna be able to do >even that. > It was a bit naive of me to expect you to wait long enough to see much helium production. However you miss the scale. If you burn all the deuterium in one liter of water you get either 2.5 X 10^3 Kwatt-hours if you make 3He or 5.5 X 10^3 Kwt-hrs if it is 4He. This is not mega joules, this is several giga joules. One litter of water contains .0173 moles of deuterium. This will make .387 liters of 3He or half that of 4He. I should have realized that American and European usage of commas and periods are often differently used in numbers. Sorry. Presently 3He is a rare and valuable commodity. It is only 1.3 billions of natural helium. The reason it is so rare is that it was easily burned in thermonuclear reactions in the stars from which most of the Earth's material derives. If we really can burn the deuterium in water via this route, then we are sitting on one of the great human discoveries. I think Scott is also missing the scale of this thing in his attitude toward careful calorimetry. While careful scientific work is nice. The best way to demonstrate this is to use the bodies own senses. One needs two identical structures. Put a resistive heater in one and a Yusmar in the other and supple them with identical external power. You can call a press conference and let the reports tell you if you are making any extra energy. For the skeptics you can switch the arrangement. Good luck in Petersburg. Regards, Ron From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 10 22:43:15 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA16861 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 22:43:12 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA16845; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 22:43:07 -0700 Received: from net-1-146.eden.com (net-1-146.eden.com [199.171.21.146]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id AAA03204; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 00:43:04 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 00:43:04 -0500 Message-Id: <199508110543.AAA03204 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Chris' Trip X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris says: >I'm still waiting for the green light to go.... What determines when this light goes on?...the arrangements in St. Pete?...funding for your travel expenses?...what? Do you need help? - Scott Little, EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 01:01:47 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA03146 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 01:01:43 -0700 Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA03121 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 01:01:36 -0700 Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id EAA09516; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 04:00:56 -0400 Date: 11 Aug 95 03:56:01 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Trip Message-ID: <950811075601_100433.1541_BHG110-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Scott, The basic problem with the green light is waiting for everything to be ready in St Pete. Funding will be OK (thanks to Arthur C Clarke), and I think y'all here have been a lot of help over the technical side. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 09:32:21 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA04856 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 09:32:12 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA04774 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 09:31:52 -0700 Received: from s1c0p6.aa.net (s1c0p6.aa.net [204.157.220.170]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA32727 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 09:31:22 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 09:31:22 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508111631.JAA32727 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: More Reports Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To All, I just got a packet of information from my dad containing more information about the devices developed by Aqua Inc., and Sonaqua Inc.. The first report was made by Raymond E. Ross, and I believe he was a principle of Aquasonics Inc. of Colorado. The report is not dated, but the note at the bottom from my father suggests that Aquasonics had purchased a license from Sonaqua Inc. (the original Schaefer corporation) to develop and market the Schaefer device. The note further goes on to explain that Aquasonics failed to live up to the contract, went bankrupt, and lost their license. The Colorado based company was marketing the device as a home heating system, and was calling it the "Delta Tee". Evidently, Raymond Ross installed one of these devices in his home, and took measurements of the performance. There is no description of the device, the testing protocols, or instrumentation used to make his claims. The report was simply a statement, according to my father's note, and a set of preliminary data that was recorded before sending the device to the Batelle Institute in Columbus, Ohio for testing in their lab. It is not a formal report. I would call it more of a "testimonial" than a scientific report, but it does have some very interesting things to say. The report made by the Batelle Institute was not included in the packet. It was supposedly a formal report of overunity performance that was the result of testing done the Batelle Institute. According to Bob Price, Aquasonics supposedly paid $40,000 to Batelle Institute to perform these tests. My parents just recently moved from Indiana to California, and my dad is having difficulty locating the formal report. The following is the complete report verbatim from Aquasonics Inc.. The misspellings, bad punctuation, and poor grammar are Ross's, not mine:-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aquasonics The Aquasonic's Delta-Tee In my opinion, the conventional way of estimating B.T.U output (G.P.M. x Delta Tee) cannot be used for our unit. I think we have proved this at the Ross residence in Broomfield. By the conventional way of estimating B.T.U. output we are heating a 1,440 sq. ft. house with a full basement, or a total of 2,880 sq. ft., to 75 degrees F with the outside temperature at 0 degrees F with less that 20,000 B.T.U.H.. A separate test was made with emersion type electric heaters. All engineers agree that this way of heating water is as close to 100% efficiency as you can get. Two 4&1/2 KW emersion units were used in the same tank and through the same piping (two 4&1/2 KW emersion units = 30,708 B.T.U.H.). This 100% efficient water heater would not heat the house above 66 degrees F when the outside temperature was 15 degrees F.. A fire had to be built in the fireplace to keep the house warm. The Aquasonic's Delta Tee unit did a better job for 10% less cost. I think a good way to test the B.T.U. output would be to build a 20' x 20' refrigerated cooler (like a meat cooler) and inside of this build a small house. This way we could have a controlled environment and measure the air temperature inside the house. In the past year we have tried almost every type of thermometer that is on the market and we can't believe the readings we get, nor could we get anyone else to believe them. With some of the readings we got, the unit showed as high as 700% efficient. Several of the best engineers in the country tried to prove us wrong and couldn't. Many times the water temperature at the unit would read 150 degrees F., run through 100 ft. of 3/4" baseboard radiation and return to the unit at 152 degrees F., a gain of 2 degrees F after running through 100 ft. of radiation and giving off heat. This is impossible. It is also impossible to heat 2,880 sq. ft. of floor space with two 3 HP motors that equal 13,200 B.T.U.H., but the Aquasonic's Delta Tee does the job and does it well. I think the Aquasonic's Delta Tee will help solve the energy problem and the polution problem and save on natural resourses. Report made by Raymond E. Ross (signature) (Knuke's Note: The second page of the report is a piece of paper with the hand written results of 10 test runs. The average rate of efficiency was 96% with no mention of the efficiency of the motors or the formulae used to come up with these numbers.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is another report by a Dr. Gordon O. C. Besch, Professor of Physics, from Superior, Wisconsin. I will type this in later today or tomorrow. -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 10:47:09 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA20327 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 10:46:14 -0700 Received: from arl-img-2.compuserve.com (arl-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.7.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA20242 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 10:45:34 -0700 Received: by arl-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id NAA12229; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 13:44:01 -0400 Date: 11 Aug 95 13:42:35 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: My heart sinks, it really does. Message-ID: <950811174234_100433.1541_BHG75-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Knuke, I realise you are passing on information which is more of a testimonial than a formal test. However, let us imagine for a moment that what it says is substantially correct. Effectively, it's saying that the "cavitation" device is not exactly the source of heat, more that the water is being - er - "conditioned" in some way. Ouch, the more I think about it the sillier it sounds. But I find I am wriggling in discomfort. I well recall that young Orthodox priest telling us of his cost-savings in heating his basilica. And he put down his inability to prove the machine by proper analysis to the problems with the instability of the Moldovan electricity supply. Now, I realise that all this goes against all sanity. It also goes against making the direct link to the Griggs machine. Please don't all jump on me at once, if I ask two nasty questions. What if the Potapov machine works like this? It would explain *everything*, all the contradictions between test results and happy customers. And all this 'duty cycle' crap. Imagine that the 'treated' water *slowly* absorbs energy from the ZPF. OK, maybe the heat has frazzled my nerve-tissue nodule. I just spoke to Jed, and at least gave him the pleasure of being on the 'stomping' side of the fence for once haha. And, if it does work like that, then just how in the name of all that is holy am I going to test the bugger to allow for this "possibility"??? Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 11:08:19 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA24919 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 11:08:15 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA24867 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 11:07:59 -0700 Received: from s1c1p4.aa.net (s1c1p4.aa.net [204.157.220.176]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA06736 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 11:07:54 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 11:07:54 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508111807.LAA06736 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: Replicability <> Calorimetry Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >To: >INTERNET:VORTEX-L ESKIMO.COM > >Scott Little makes extravagant promises here, that I find highly unrealistic: > > "If I ever get the immense pleasure of reporting an apparent over-unity > calorimetric result, you can be sure that I will have checked it > backwards and forwards and sideways AND that I will be completely ready > and able to demonstrate the effect at will...because I fully expect > nobody else to believe it until they've seen it and measured it for > themselves." > >I know several dozen highly professional people who have seen over-unity >calorimetric results, and none of them talk like this. People like Bockris, >McKubre, Pons and Fleischmann, Oriani, Arata and Patterson have all checked it >backwards, forwards and sideways. They are certain of their results. Nobody >has ever shown any reason to doubt their calorimetry. They measure relatively >high power levels which are easy to detect, so their S/N ratios are splendid. >I have studied their work carefully, talked to them at length, and I accept >their results without reservations. I trust that Scott also accepts their >results. I have not heard any complaints from him about any of their papers. > >That is all well and good, but here is the part that bothers me: "I will be >completely ready and able to demonstrate the effect at will." That is one heck >of a bold promise! Too bold. Also, I sense that we are confusing two different >issues here: > >1. Easy replicability; heat on demand. > >2. Good calorimetry, and a high signal to noise ratio. > >For a long time Patterson had splendid replicability and rotten calorimetry. >Now, thanks to Cravens, he is strong in both categories. McKubre has always >had the best calorimetry on earth, but lousy replicability. Pons and >Fleischmann are tops in both categories. Bockris, who is one of the most >brilliant and honest people I have ever met, makes no bones about it. He says >that the calorimetry is a cinch at these power levels and he is quite sure the >effect is real, but if you come in to his lab for a month, you might never see >a heat burst. Chances are there will be a burst at 3:00 a.m. Sunday morning >when the computer is down. > >Scott claims here that he intends to go head-to-head with these people in the >excess heat business. He intends to show up the likes of Mike McKubre and >J.O.M.B. Well, maybe he can find the right kind of machine and pull it off. >More power to him if he does! I would be delighted if he can come up with >something half as good as Patterson. But let us be careful here. We must not >be fooled into questioning results, or even rejecting results, just because >they are intermittent or difficult to replicate. That is not scientific. And >let us not reach for the moon! Most prototype machines are balky and >unpredictable. Nobody would expect an early prototype computer, airplane, >space shuttle or automobile to work easily on-demand. You had baby those >things along. I remember not long ago when it took hours to get a >microcomputer to say boo. When the outside observer shows up at Scott's lab >to verify the measurements, he better be ready to camp out for a week waiting >for Scott to tweak the thing and make it work. > >Scott also reports: > > "A large number of people directly or indirectly involved in this > "industry" are not aware of this fact. They must think that calorimetry > consists of just reading a thermometer or two. As a result, they tend > to believe reports of over-unity calorimetric measurements without > question...much as you and I accept the weatherman's statement of > today's high temperature without question." > >I do not know anyone like that. I am not sure which "industry" Scott has in >mind. Certainly not electrochemical CF. I have met everyone in the business, >and I do not know anyone who just reads a thermometer or two, except maybe >Ying. Perhaps Scott will tell us who he has in mind. There are some "skeptics" >who have the opposite delusion. They think that calorimetry is so terribly >difficult that nobody can ever reliably measure heat even at multiple-watt >levels. > >- Jed > Whewww, Jed, cool down a little bit. Almost no one on this board is doing professional electrochemical CF. This board is primarily used by inventors who are working with the hydrosonic pump concept. It is a very eclectic group of researchers, some well esconced will labs and gear, some not so well situated, some very well formally educated in professional engineering, others not so. Scott was talking about the run of the mill type of people who are going to be reading general reports prepared by others (I think). Anyway, thanks for your post. I personally am finding the issues and travails discussed on Vortex a great second hand education in many aspects of the verification of a technology. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 11:17:20 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA26776 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 11:17:06 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA26675 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 11:16:43 -0700 Received: from s1c1p4.aa.net (s1c1p4.aa.net [204.157.220.176]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA07444 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 11:15:51 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 11:15:51 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508111815.LAA07444 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: More Reports Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >To All, > I just got a packet of information from my dad containing more >information about the devices developed by Aqua Inc., and Sonaqua Inc.. The >first report was made by Raymond E. Ross, and I believe he was a principle >of Aquasonics Inc. of Colorado. The report is not dated, but the note at >the bottom from my father suggests that Aquasonics had purchased a license >from Sonaqua Inc. (the original Schaefer corporation) to develop and market >the Schaefer device. The note further goes on to explain that Aquasonics >failed to live up to the contract, went bankrupt, and lost their license. >The Colorado based company was marketing the device as a home heating >system, and was calling it the "Delta Tee". Evidently, Raymond Ross >installed one of these devices in his home, and took measurements of the >performance. There is no description of the device, the testing protocols, >or instrumentation used to make his claims. The report was simply a >statement, according to my father's note, and a set of preliminary data that >was recorded before sending the device to the Batelle Institute in Columbus, >Ohio for testing in their lab. It is not a formal report. I would call it >more of a "testimonial" than a scientific report, but it does have some very >interesting things to say. The report made by the Batelle Institute was not >included in the packet. It was supposedly a formal report of overunity >performance that was the result of testing done the Batelle Institute. >According to Bob Price, Aquasonics supposedly paid $40,000 to Batelle >Institute to perform these tests. My parents just recently moved from >Indiana to California, and my dad is having difficulty locating the formal >report. The following is the complete report verbatim from Aquasonics Inc.. >The misspellings, bad punctuation, and poor grammar are Ross's, not mine:-) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Aquasonics > > The Aquasonic's Delta-Tee > > In my opinion, the conventional way of estimating B.T.U output (G.P.M. x >Delta Tee) cannot be used for our unit. I think we have proved this at the >Ross residence in Broomfield. By the conventional way of estimating B.T.U. >output we are heating a 1,440 sq. ft. house with a full basement, or a total >of 2,880 sq. ft., to 75 degrees F with the outside temperature at 0 degrees >F with less that 20,000 B.T.U.H.. > > A separate test was made with emersion type electric heaters. All >engineers agree that this way of heating water is as close to 100% >efficiency as you can get. Two 4&1/2 KW emersion units were used in the >same tank and through the same piping (two 4&1/2 KW emersion units = 30,708 >B.T.U.H.). This 100% efficient water heater would not heat the house above >66 degrees F when the outside temperature was 15 degrees F.. A fire had to >be built in the fireplace to keep the house warm. The Aquasonic's Delta Tee >unit did a better job for 10% less cost. > > I think a good way to test the B.T.U. output would be to build a 20' x >20' refrigerated cooler (like a meat cooler) and inside of this build a >small house. This way we could have a controlled environment and measure >the air temperature inside the house. > > In the past year we have tried almost every type of thermometer that is >on the market and we can't believe the readings we get, nor could we get >anyone else to believe them. With some of the readings we got, the unit >showed as high as 700% efficient. Several of the best engineers in the >country tried to prove us wrong and couldn't. Many times the water >temperature at the unit would read 150 degrees F., run through 100 ft. of >3/4" baseboard radiation and return to the unit at 152 degrees F., a gain of >2 degrees F after running through 100 ft. of radiation and giving off heat. >This is impossible. It is also impossible to heat 2,880 sq. ft. of floor >space with two 3 HP motors that equal 13,200 B.T.U.H., but the Aquasonic's >Delta Tee does the job and does it well. > > I think the Aquasonic's Delta Tee will help solve the energy problem and >the polution problem and save on natural resourses. > > >Report made by Raymond E. Ross (signature) > >(Knuke's Note: The second page of the report is a piece of paper with the >hand written results of 10 test runs. The average rate of efficiency was >96% with no mention of the efficiency of the motors or the formulae used to >come up with these numbers.) > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > >There is another report by a Dr. Gordon O. C. Besch, Professor of Physics, >from Superior, Wisconsin. I will type this in later today or tomorrow. >-Knuke > > Sheez....Knuke I hope you know what you are doing. I must have chased reports and data on at least a hundred different grass roots inventions during the past 20 years and almost all of them have ended up in a swamp...of indecisive confusion and lack of something critical to determine if it had ever been real. The material you quoted above reeks of a combination of promoter tall tales and technical ignorance of the technology. Am I being too harsh? ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 11:46:09 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA02697 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 11:45:26 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA02535 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 11:44:42 -0700 Received: from s1c0p1.aa.net (s1c0p1.aa.net [204.157.220.165]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA09321 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 11:43:38 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 11:43:38 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508111843.LAA09321 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: My heart sinks, it really does. Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris writes> >To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com > >Knuke, > >I realise you are passing on information which is more of a testimonial than a >formal test. > >However, let us imagine for a moment that what it says is substantially >correct. Effectively, it's saying that the "cavitation" device is not exactly >the source of heat, more that the water is being - er - "conditioned" in some >way. Ouch, the more I think about it the sillier it sounds. Chris, this doesn't mean that the cavitation is not the source of energy, it means that barrel calorimetry is not an adequate means for measuring the true efficiency. In the next report that I key in from Dr. Besch, you may find some clues as to the reasons for this. Basically, the steam that is produced by these type of units is a dry steam which is blue in color. This makes me think that it is possibly not steam at all, but partially steam with decomposed hydrgen and oxygen gases mixed in. These gases when allowed to recombine produce heat if I am correct about the recombination principles. > >But I find I am wriggling in discomfort. I well recall that young Orthodox >priest telling us of his cost-savings in heating his basilica. And he put down >his inability to prove the machine by proper analysis to the problems with >the instability of the Moldovan electricity supply. > >Now, I realise that all this goes against all sanity. It also goes against >making the direct link to the Griggs machine. Please don't all jump on me at >once, if I ask two nasty questions. As I said earlier, these machines produce the exact same effects, making the links actually stronger. Griggs has just never, to my knowledge, published any reports on a radiator based type system. He has, at the request of many scientists, stuck to barrel calorimetry to get his efficiency ratings. > >What if the Potapov machine works like this? It would explain *everything*, >all the contradictions between test results and happy customers. And all this >'duty cycle' crap. Imagine that the 'treated' water *slowly* absorbs energy >from the ZPF. OK, maybe the heat has frazzled my nerve-tissue nodule. I just >spoke to Jed, and at least gave him the pleasure of being on the 'stomping' >side of the fence for once haha. > >And, if it does work like that, then just how in the name of all that is holy >am I going to test the bugger to allow for this "possibility"??? You can only see this kind of delayed heat reaction with a "room within a room" type of calorimeter that compares the performance of an electrical resistance coil heater performance with a cavitational heater performance. The only way that you can even begin to estimate this kind of reaction with barrel calorimetry is to measure the cool down timeperiod of the water in the barrel of water heated with cavitational device, and the cooldown period of the water in the barrel when it is heated with a resistance coil heater and comparing the times. All of you guys with Yusmars could be doing that right now IF the Yusmars that you have are actually inducing cavitation. Griggs could do it with his device. ENECO could have done it with my device, but chose not to. This is what the "duty cycle crap" is all about. This is the basis for the outrageous claims of 300-1000% efficiency come from. If you use barrel calorimetry and don't compare the cooldown times of an electrical resistance coil heater and a cavitational heater, you will at most find an efficiency of 120% (which nobody believes, and wouldn't be worth the effort of manufacturing anyway considering the cost difference between the two devices), and that is only after you figure in the efficiency of the drive motor. And yes, this would explain why all of Potopov's and Griggs' customers are seeing savings in their fuel bills while the "scientists" are still scratching their heads at the "underunity" performance of these devices. -Knuke Keep Looking! > >Chris > > From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 12:25:28 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA10863 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 12:25:21 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA10785 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 12:24:56 -0700 Received: from s1c0p5.aa.net (s1c0p5.aa.net [204.157.220.169]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA12481 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 12:24:23 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 12:24:23 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508111924.MAA12481 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: More Reports Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael Mandeville writes> > >Sheez....Knuke I hope you know what you are doing. I must have chased >reports and data on at least a hundred different grass roots inventions >during the past 20 years and almost all of them have ended up in a >swamp...of indecisive confusion and lack of something critical to determine >if it had ever been real. The material you quoted above reeks of a >combination of promoter tall tales and technical ignorance of the >technology. Am I being too harsh? >____________________________________ >MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing >Michael Mandeville, publisher >mwm aa.net I know, I know. You are not being too harsh. If you had access to some of the stuff that I've uncovered in this particular chase, you would laugh yourself silly. I fear I already may have:-). The thing about this particular line of devices is that for the last 25 years, small groups of people have been independantly and cooperatively coming up with data that is so similar that I feel the need to keep at it. Remember, that I personally saw the thing power a motor. I immediately dumped 50 grand of my own money into it. Grant Stoffle told me that Schaefer had one that didn't even have a motor. He pull started it and it ran by itself. He told me this after I related my experience to him. One problem with some of the reports is that they are coming from people with no credentials, and that whenever a reputable lab gets ahold of the thing, they all do the barrel calorimetry gig. Then they try to bury the results that they get by leaving out of their written reports key details of the tests which would endanger their reputations. The start up companies who paid for these studies with large amounts of hard earned, shareholder money end up going bankrupt trying to get "credibility". Another problem with some of the reports is that they come from people that are out and out frauds, thieves, and con men. I personally have had offers from at least ten of my good friends who have known me long enough to know that I am not lying about what I've reported, and from a number of people on the internet that don't even know me AT ALL to invest their hard earned money into the development of my device. I've refused them all, simply because I don't want to see any more money, hard earned by good, honest people, being thrown into a toilet. Too harsh? You're probably being too kind, but I respect your concern. Do I know what I'm doing? No. Do you? -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 15:05:50 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA13019 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 15:05:47 -0700 Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA12993 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 15:05:39 -0700 Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA10805; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 18:05:04 -0400 Date: 11 Aug 95 17:57:46 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Ah, yes, *that* crowd Message-ID: <950811215745_72240.1256_EHB62-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: >internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com In response to my comments about Scott Little's vow to make a fully controllable machine, Michael Mandeville wrote: "This board is primarily used by inventors who are working with the hydrosonic pump concept. It is a very eclectic group of researchers..." Well, if we are only talking about that, then as far as I know, it is a very small group of researchers: Knuke, Jim Griggs and Yuri Potapov. Is there anyone else? Schaefer is deceased. Elsewhere, Michael describes the, um . . . wider world of over-unity devices: "I must have chased reports and data on at least a hundred different grass roots inventions during the past 20 years and almost all of them have ended up in a swamp...of indecisive confusion and lack of something critical to determine if it had ever been real." Ah, yes. If we are talking about *that* crowd I agree completely with Michael and Scott. Most of the "grass roots" type people like Meyer are impossible to pin down. Scott talked about using only one thermometer; as far as I know, Meyer does not use any thermometers at all. Grass roots is a good expression. I lean towards something a little stronger: "lunatic fringe" (LF). There is a large cohort of LF perpetual motion machine people out there. Many of them seem so bad at science that I dismiss them out of hand. In some cases, perhaps I dismiss them too quickly, because they are so tiresome. The most annoying ones keep their inventions secret. The Hydrosonic Gang of Four does not fit this pattern. Knuke and Jim are definitely not members of the LF. Yuri is looking more and more as if he might be. I do not know enough about Schaefer to judge. I should explain that when I talk about the o-u crowd, I automatically exclude the LF. I mean the mainstream, real scientists and engineers. I automatically think of the CF crowd first, because they are the most impressive and they have the best replicated, best documented results and the most impressive qualifications, thanks to Pons and Fleischmann, who lent the field enormous credibility in 1989. If they had not been such straight laced people, dripping with mainstream honors and qualifications, the field would not exist. In general, I look for people who meet this informal checklist of qualifications: 1. Publishes useful, understandable specifications and data (drawings, patents, etc.) 2. Allow other people to observe and verify their experiments. Assist others in replication. 3. Understands standard high-school level physics, especially thermodynamics and conservation of energy. This does not mean the candidate must necessarily *agree with* basic physics, but if he disagrees he must be fully aware that his model, hypothesis or theory is a violation of accepted physics. I don't mind heresy so long as the heretic knows the catechism, and knowingly rejects it for a good reason. 4. Actually builds a machine of some sort, and tests it by some reasonable protocol. There is a separate category of people who do only theory. They are off the radar screen. I have great respect for some of them, like Vigier, Puthoff, and Hagelstein, but I cannot make head or tail of what they are talking about. I have no way of evaluating their work, so I cannot judge them. I should also explain that I assume that electrochemical CF and mysterious hydrosonic energy are somehow linked. I assume they have the same underlying cause. That assumption is based on a mere hunch; I cannot point to any data or hypothesis that links them. The more I learn, the more I begin to suspect they may not be related after all. At this point, when we talk about "o-u" of any type, I automatically include the CF work in my mind, which is why I brought it up in response to Scott's comments. Now let us get back to technical issues, including this thorny problem that Chris poses. How does one test for energy stored up in water, or energy that leaks into water from ZPE (or what-have-you)? A simple barrel test will not do. The heat decay curve is difficult to establish and difficult to measure. The barrels that I observed at Jim's place took a long time to cool off. (Maybe they were taking *too long*!?!) I did not take any extensive data on that. Perhaps I should have. This problem is somewhat similar to measuring heat after death with an electrochemical CF experiment. The only ways I can think to do it are: 1. With static calorimetry based on first principles. See Pons and Fleischmann for a classic example. You must establish the decay curve by adding pulses from a joule heater. This works well with a test tube but it would be a real pain in the butt with a whole barrel or a Yusmar full of water. 2. With flow calorimetry and an external loop. This might cool down the Yusmar so quickly that it kills the putative energy grabbing mechanism, particularly if the heat sink was, say, a barrel of room temperature water. A thermal shock might kill the reaction, but on the other hand, the Yusmar is designed to lose heat fairly quickly with those radiators. 3. With something like a Seebeck Envelope calorimeter, like the type used by Oriani, which was originally designed to hold babies, as I recall. We need a *great big* envelope calorimeter, as Knuke has already pointed out. This is not practical for a near term test. 4. With a small sample of water. This is a far out suggestion, but let us assume that whatever this energy grabbing mechanism is, it must be very robust. It works in rusty water circulating through filthy pipes in a Russian apartment building. So perhaps Chris could draw a liter of water at, say, 70 deg C, from the Yusmar after the run. He then takes an identical liter bottle and pours into it a mixture of hot tap water and boiling water from a teapot, to bring the temperature up to 70 deg C. He places the two containers side by side and waits. A liter bottle will cool down much faster than a whole barrel of water, or a hot Yusmar. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 15:44:37 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA20648 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 15:44:36 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA20618 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 15:44:25 -0700 Received: from d205.aa.net (d205.aa.net [204.157.220.205]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA26277 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 15:43:35 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 15:43:35 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508112243.PAA26277 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Besch Report Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To All, This report is slightly more formal in structure, although as you will see there are some funny bits. I am posting this separately because of its' size (7 pages), and again the mispellings, etc. are not mine:-). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steam Generator Desription Basically, the invention described herein is a heat producing device, which produces heat by the generation and intensification of shock waves in liquids. The invented device is a machine consisting of a cylindrical housing, which ca be made in various sizes, containing, basically one rotating assembly, connected to any prime mover such as an electrical motor by a shaft. The rotation of the central assembly creates a draw from dead end chambers due to its proper configuration. This pulling of the liquid from the sealed end creates a vacume in these chambers. This vacume is then utilized to redraw the liquid into these dead end chambers, which occures at high velocity. At this point the extinquished velocity of the liquid takes place many times per second. Each time the velocity is extinguished, pressure waves (shock waves) are set up, and due to proper surrounding configuration, these waves are intensified in velocity as they pass through the liquid. With each passage of a shock wave through the liquid, some of the energy is converted to heat energy, and passes into the liquid. As this occures, the temperature of the liquid rises, its viscosity is lowered, and the shock wave rate of travel increases. With water being the liquid commonly used in this device, its temperature is rapidly brought up and the hot liquid is brought to an outlet value, where it flashes into steam, as a pressure drop occures on discharge. Two basic principals of physics must be understood to properly understand the operation of this invention. 1-When water or other liquid flowing in a restriction such as a pipe is suddenly stopped within certain range of time closure, pressure is created at the shut off point to the value of about 63.4 P.S.I. for every foot of extinguished velocity. This pressure wave then travels back up the conduit to the reservoir or other source of the liquid, and cycles are set up. Normally, this results in the wave disappating shortly. Explanations of this are given in texts on what is commonly called "water hammer". 2-Some books on this subject also state that as the shock wave passes through the liquid, a part of the energy is converted into heat energy, and is disappated into the mass. Those texts that refer to this thermodynamic aspect of the shock wave state that the amount on heat released is so small that for most purposes it can be disregarded. It is at this point that the subject invention begins... Page 2 August 26,1988 To: Richard H. Hub, Hub Industries-International (Aqua INC) 1821 Walden Office Square, Suite 332, Schaumburg, IL 60173 312-397-9066 From: Dr. Gordon O. C. Besch, Professor of Physics 631 N. 23rd Street, Superior, WI 54880 715-392-5284 Re: Steam Generator, Canadian Patent No. 959731, 12-24-74 Carl D. Schaefer, Chicago IL, granted to Sonaqua Inc., Chicago Heights, IL Persons referred to in the report in addition to the above: Peter Borgren, V.P. Engineering & Developing, World Utilities, Inc. 825 Partridge Street, Duluth, MN 55811 1-218-724-2175 Donald Johnson, Hub Industries-International (Aqua, INC) Brooklyn Center, Minneapolis, MN 1-612-561-1416 Robert Price, Carpenter, Mechanic, Original Inventor's Associate 20260 Bensley Avenue, RR2, Bosx 372, Chicago Heights, IL 60411 312-758-2064 TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN: Regarding the above novel steam generator, (alleged to use the "water hammer" principle), a simplified model without "superheaters" was demonstrated by Bob to the above persons (and one other Tony) in Chicago Heights on Wednesday afternoon, 8-24-88. The rotor housing was about 2" wide and 12" diameter and coupled an electric motor of 230 volts and 50 amps, 3 phase. The input guages of the input water, which was in a tank of about 6' high and 2' in diameter, read 80 degrees F and 130 psi. The input tank should produce a pressure greater than the output pressure. Output guages read 320 degrees F, 70psi. (Bob indicated that possible readings could be 500 degrees F and 290 psi.) A word on the "water hammer" principle. Information in the patent was meager and further library research on the "water hammer" and the accompanying shock waves with resulting high pressures and high temperatures must be done. The inventor used the "water hammer" effect in his explanation for the production of steam; he proposed that column(s) of water were oscillating due to the alternation of "centrifugal" force and a force due to a vacuum; forces were in conflict. The large number of times of recycling of water produced high temperatures and the resulting steam. Vibrations were noted on the patent diagrams with double-pointed arrows, and were referred to in the text of the patent as "snapped back" action. On Wednesday afternoon the steam generator was put in operation by Bob. Bob indicated that the rpm's were 3,480. We saw varying amounts of "steam," bluish in color. Though the color is probably due to the "blue sky" effect, tests should be made to ascertain the nature of the output gas. The electric motor is coupled to the steam generator and "steam" is produced mechanically. It had varying degrees of "dryness". One could hold one's hand in the jet stream but the outlet pipe was far too hot for one's hands. One of the significant anomalies is the rapid speed wtih which the rotor housing heats up. It is warm (hand hot) all over the housing in less than a minute. Significant to me is that in the fall of 1973 Batelle Labs in Columbus, Ohio allegedly tested, at a cost of probably $40,000, and presented a report to Sonaqua, Inc. on the efficiency of the steam generator; Bob said it was rated at 98.2+-5%. (No documentation available). Because all of the guages were in place, (with no direct output measurement of "steam" gas) it is recommended that one test the working model with one's own instrumentation. It is necessary that the working model be run an then examined internally when cooled. Bob states that this present model is probably about 13 years old. It was put together probably by the use of old parts collected by Bob. The new red paint on the housing is discolored probably due to the heat of the apparatus. There is an audible hum in the generator at optimum operation and this hum's frequency should be measured. The conversation with Bob during Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday (telephone), (8/24 - 26), the reading of several reports, basically the Canadian Patent (including the examination of the diagrams with Donald Johnson) and the converstations with the above persons resulted in many conjectures which must be pursued for the elimination or confirmation: A: Bob has several conjectures regarding the theory of the steam generator, namely, (a) due to the oscillations of shock waves, (b) shock waves were breaking the hydrogen bonds, (c) "column fracture" of water columns resulting in miniscule bubble with very high pressures, and (d) with some "older models," which had "vanes and cones" a "torque helping effect" is proposed to explain the apparent decrease in amperage from 29 amps to 15 amps after start-up (with no apparent operational change in the generation of steam. This information given by Bob.) B: The hum in the steam generator may be related to the "water hammer" (resonant frquency) effect. (Old data from Bob mentions a high frequency in "S" below.) C: Rough ball-park figures for input and output calculations by Bob may possibly indicate a 60,000 BTU input with a 70,000 BTU output. However, if this is confirmed, or even if the 98.2% is documented, the search for the "unkown energy conversion process" is in order; especially if the input motor is about 83% efficient: D. To emphasize my point, because of the alleged high efficiency from the Batelle Report the search for an "unknown energy conversion process" is in order. E. Because of the "Colorado Report", (2/21/76), regarding the heating of a house, an update with new research studies should be undertaken on the steam generator's use as a "mechanical heater". F. Because of the "Denver Report" (3/25/75) with its broad study of "heavy" hydrogen as an aspect of a yet "unknown energy conversion process", one should pursue various hypotheses. G. As noted by Don and myself, the patent diagrams certainly indicate a recycling path for the water but also seem to indicate a full or partial barrier where steam is reproduced and maybe some physical division inside of the housing. It seems not to be confirmed by Bob. When the simplified model is disassembled these points should be examined. H. Because of the cone design of the apparatus, "vortex" effects should be proposed and researched, especially on the "cones and fins" model. I. Because there are no added tubes, (outlet extension), on the present simplified working model, but indicated in the patent diagram, resonance, "water hammer", and shock wave effects should be examined in an added extension unit on the present simplified model. With the added tubes, does "superheated steam" occur? (See "V" below.) J. Bob says that discoloration of rotor plates (black, purple, blue, even golden straw color) has occured on the rotor units (which are probably made of common 10-20 low carbon steel, 3/4" thick, or maybe one-half inch thick). Temperatures should be predicted and hypotheses should be proposed. K. The shaft is screwed into the rotors, (1/2"), according to Bob, and bending at a specific point near this point as been noted by Bob. An explanation is in order with proposals for correcting this problem. (See "P" below). L. Bob thinks that there is no radiation (except heat) being emitted by rotor; this should be checked with instrumentation maybe even using a port in the housing. M. Component #63 should be studied with regard to the location of the water-steam barrier in the working model. N. There is an obvious "seal" problem noted by Bob. They have used "old" seals. They have used seals "back to back". For their 1-3/4" shaft new seals are in order. The migration of grease may be eliminated by the special use of graphite in the construction of the shaft. P. New shaft design is in order. Shaft has bent according to Bob and long shafts were tried, and even two electric motors, one at each end of shaft, were tried. Q. Research is needed on the construction of varying sizes of steam generators. Conversation with Bob indicates that diameters if 3", 6", 9" and 12" are in order for the working models. Weight should be a factor in the construction of the working demnstration models. R. Uses for a highly efficient, mechanically produced, steam generator are legion. Someone indicated that a company proposed or used one to steam clean mobile homes. Research on various possible uses is in order. S. Bob reported a 3-day session with a Dr. Wm. Allen, Ph.D. from Bothell, WA 98011 at about 1972. Dr. Allen seemed to be using a figure 48,500 Hz with a laminated rotor apparatus. The significance of this frequency, if confirmed, should be researched. (Note: Bob reports that these 1/2" rotors are face to face giving a maximum orifice of about 1". Inserting a thin plate between them does not seem to change the frequency according to Bob.) T. Because of the long lifetimes of Bob's model, it seems to be in order to research the possible lifetime of the steam generator. It may be very, very long. U. According to Bob, many, many, many bearings were replaced: Research needed here. V. The superstructure which is an extension of the housing should be researched with possible "superheater" in mind. We need different sizes and different lengths to be tried. W. In the patent description "holes" are noted which are restricted passageways of water and also minute relief holes. More study needed here: Bob does not confirm these holes. When the apparatus is disassembled, verification is in order. X. Bob states that "flashback" of steam into the apparatus required the need to repair the apparatus. Study of this detrimental effect is in order. Bob said it left a white residue in the whater when "flashback" of steam occured. Y. The design of the laminated rotor described by Bob is not interesting. A study of this design is in order. It will be most important probably in the explanation of the operation of the steam generator due to its semi-circles and indentations in the laminated rotor. This was a late presentation by Bob. Z. Zum Whum! How come the steam generator works? Please remember that the above conjectures were made by looking at the outside of the steam generator model, by examination of diagrams of the patent and by conversations with Bob and many others. A whole new world should open up with the examination of the inside of the simplified working model and of a "second" design which includes "cones and fins". This second design is part of Bob's notes which are not yet available to me. Recommendations on next page. Recommendations: 1. Send the present working model of the steam generator to Batelle Labs again for evaluation. (Cost in '72 was about $40,000, now maybe it will be $100,000). One really needs a good current scientific evaluation of the steam generator by a top testing laboratory. (Quartz ports should be installed in the housing.) 2. Produce several different sizes of working models under Bob's leadership including ones incorporating the "second design", the "cones and fins" model. 3. Search for a theoretical explanation of the possible "unknown energy conversion process". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- End of Report -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 11 16:15:34 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA26398 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 16:15:32 -0700 Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA26391 for ; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 16:15:28 -0700 Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA20250; Fri, 11 Aug 1995 19:14:55 -0400 Date: 11 Aug 95 19:12:42 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Proper testing. Message-ID: <950811231242_100433.1541_BHG59-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com [By the way, could I ask that people not simply repost the entire postings of previous people as part of their response? Half the time I can't find what they themselves are saying, it's buried under generations of previous messages] I'm very interested in what 'Knuke' is saying. I've been trying to think the thing through, and was mildly encouraged by a report in the current New Scientist (12 Aug). One Ralph McNutt, at Johns Hopkins, has found an apparent strong correlation between the solar neutrinos and the mass flux of the solar wind. He found it a few years ago, and it was so interesting (since the sun is nearly half-a-million miles in radius, and the neutrinos come from the middle and the protons from the photosphere) that he promptly shelved it (as any good scientist should). Now, with further correlations (neutrinos, sunspots, magnetic field, solar wind) being made all over the place, he has put his head over the parapet. Naturally, Douglas Morrison (fresh from his triumphs in the CF stakes) is blasting away at him. The sunspot/neutrino correlation is less good, it seems, and that helps Morrison, but the whole thing does seem to be getting more secure as time passes. So what? Well, I think there is a moral here. Just because data is 'preposterous', that doesn't mean it has to be wrong. It may be, it may not be. If it is there, it may be only as significant as the correlation between the banana cnsumption in the UK and the tonnage of the Royal Navy between the wars. That (of course) proves that banana imports were carried on Navy ships. But it could be that a correlation is significant, no matter how crazy it sounds. McNutt's data goes back 19 years. If it goes on correlating, then there may well be a link (associative or causative). Just acting like Morrison, in a desperate attempt to defend the status quo ante, just ain't what I thought science was about. In our case we have curiously muddy reports, we have Potapov acting oddly (by our standards), we have Gene's and Scott's negative tests. On the other hand we have clearly honest customers who are obviously very happy with their reduced fuel bills - after converting to electricity, which isn't cheap anywhere - unless somebody can show me that in the CIS there is some weird subsidy for electricity?? I'm satisfied that I actually saw maybe $0.5M of kit at works cost price awaiting delivery, and all the signs of a healthy business. I've not been able to work out how to square all these conflicts. The hypothesis that water heated this way holds much more heat than it should is crazy, but I'm not going to St Pete's to just stare at the thing with my mouth open, say it doesn't/does work, and then come home. Say we successfully trash it, and yet people still heat homes and factories and hotels with the things, then next year somebody comes along and says, "But why didn't you look at one which was running in its normal mode, it has to be done that way?" I'm interested enough in this that I'd welcome comments on the repetition rate of the duty cycle, on the mark/space ratio of 1:2, on the accuracy with which a disc wattmeter measures the on (or even off?) surge of an electric motor, and ideas on measuring the COP of a practical system with radiators. What is there to lose by trying to test the thing as it is meant to be used? Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 11:34:35 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA28708 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 12 Aug 1995 11:34:31 -0700 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA28638 for ; Sat, 12 Aug 1995 11:34:03 -0700 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id LAA19380; Sat, 12 Aug 1995 11:33:48 -0700 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 11:33:47 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: Besch Report In-Reply-To: <199508112243.PAA26277 big.aa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 11 Aug 1995, Michael T. Huffman wrote: > A: Bob has several conjectures regarding the theory of the steam > generator, namely, (a) due to the oscillations of shock waves, (b) shock > waves were breaking the hydrogen bonds, (c) "column fracture" of water > columns resulting in miniscule bubble with very high pressures, and (d) with > some "older models," which had "vanes and cones" a "torque helping effect" > is proposed to explain the apparent decrease in amperage from 29 amps to 15 > amps after start-up (with no apparent operational change in the generation > of steam. This information given by Bob.) Torque helping effect? Very interesting. > H. Because of the cone design of the apparatus, "vortex" effects should > be proposed and researched, especially on the "cones and fins" model. So this device is a combo of physical turbine and vortex flow device? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Aug 13 05:21:37 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA13634 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 13 Aug 1995 05:21:35 -0700 Received: from arl-img-2.compuserve.com (arl-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.7.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA13628 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 1995 05:21:30 -0700 Received: by arl-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id IAA06800; Sun, 13 Aug 1995 08:20:57 -0400 Date: 13 Aug 95 08:19:45 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Scott's note Message-ID: <950813121945_100433.1541_BHG78-3 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Scott, Thanks for the comments, especially about the wattmeter. As I say, I'm assuming I will find a decent wattmeter there, and will test it against the instantaneous high-accuracy one I will buy for the purpose. That's a lot of money to spend to do one test, but I think it is essential. Thanks for the comment on wiring it in correctly, and for the SH of iron. Copper is slightly less, as one would expect from the relationship between atomic weight and SH. Curious, is that. If we assume that Potapov's customers are honest and not stupid, and that there is no amazing subsidy on electricity compared with gas (let alone solid fuel) then we have this anomaly to explain. Either we can't get the ###### thing to go because it needs to be set up exactly like a bought system - this is the rationale for my trip - OR the 'anomaly' is not the anomaly we thought it was. Or both. I had a chat with Chris Morriss about testing the thing as a heating system. We came up with an idea. Let's assume that a radiator in this system gives off more heat than it should. The only other possibility is that it heats up anomalously easily, and we seem to have covered that already with your tests and Gene's. How about this? We let the thing run until it is in 'normal' mode. That is, it's switching itself on and off according to a thermostat on or near the actual device. We switch off immediately after the thermostat cuts the motor, and close a tap either side of a radiator, which has a nicely insulated thermocouple on it. Then we plot the cooling curve. Next, an identical radiator (or even the same one) is filled with very hot water - so it is hotter than it was when heated with the Yusmar - and a similar curve is plotted. (All usual reservations about same location, same ambient temp, et boringly cetera). I'm unwilling to concede that it would lose more heat at the same temperature just because it had magic water inside it, so I reckon that is a pretty good trial. The same temperature range should give the same graph, nicht? As for Brit plumbers: Scott, it's the same here. I think you'd have trouble finding one who could work with metal - apart from working a pipe cutter, pipe bender, and blowlamp to do a capillary joint. But I bet they have some damn good pipe-fitters in St Pete. My brother was once touring Ireland in a beat-up old Mini when the back subframe gave way. A very relaxed Irishman welded it all up in situ, no worries about the fuel tank being only inches from his torch . . . Chemical engineers say that the discipline has but a single Law: A Pipe Which Has Been Cut To Length Is Too Short. I agree about the constriction test being ideal. It just all seems so messy. I think we'd really need two machines, and the whole idea of trying to organise everything in such circumstances makes me feel quie faint. Yup, I had thought of imagining all you people looking over my shoulder with a jaundiced eye. I'll do that. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Aug 13 11:06:38 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA00632 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 13 Aug 1995 11:06:06 -0700 Received: from eskimo.com (root eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA00586 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 1995 11:05:58 -0700 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id KAA09998; Sun, 13 Aug 1995 10:18:29 -0700 Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 10:18:27 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: magic water In-Reply-To: <199508131703.MAA20762 matrix.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris, if you have time you might want to take temperature readings at various points on the whole radiator circuit, then compare them with readings taken during operation with the Yusmar replaced with a constriction (if this replacement is part of the plan, of course.) If the constriction is adjusted to give the same load on the motor as the Yusmar, then the same temperatures are to be expected on the inlet and outlet pipes of the distant radiators. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Aug 13 11:38:46 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA04704 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 13 Aug 1995 11:38:17 -0700 Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA04697 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 1995 11:38:13 -0700 Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id OAA06767; Sun, 13 Aug 1995 14:37:42 -0400 Date: 13 Aug 95 14:36:30 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Yes, I realise that. Message-ID: <950813183629_100433.1541_BHG43-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Scott, Thanks for the note. Oh, I agree with every word you say. I don't imagine for a minute that this 'magic water' idea is much good. As you say, it is more likely that (if the thing works at all) it is that there is some difference between the way the machine was tested - or that there is some other unthought of factor like some odd characteristic of the Russian pumps or motors. I just wan to be sure that if the thing doesn't seem to work, I had not missed anything. I am not happy about modifying the machine, though. It could well be that this might ruin the machine, with all that implies. The "Whole room" calorimetry idea appeals, ideally with a kind of 'tent' erected around the machine, with the chance to switch between the Yusmar and a conventional heater. We often used to build these 'tents' for environmental testing, so I reckon that would be a really good trial. Just run the thing up in the tent until it stabilises, then do the same thing with a heater set to the same power, or controlled with a thermostat to reach the same temperature. I like it. You will recall that we don't have ducttape, and you don't have Blu-tack - those two vital engineering materials for all such activities. I wonder what they use in St Pete?! Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Aug 13 20:24:38 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA13541 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 13 Aug 1995 20:24:33 -0700 Received: from karloff.lanl.gov (karloff.lanl.gov [128.165.16.190]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA13520 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 1995 20:24:25 -0700 Message-Id: <199508140324.UAA13520 mail.eskimo.com> Received: by karloff.lanl.gov (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA023810695; Sun, 13 Aug 1995 21:24:55 -0600 From: Ron McFee Subject: Hydrosonic and CF To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 13 Aug 95 21:24:55 MDT Cc: mcfee lanl.gov Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell writes: >I should also explain that I assume that electrochemical CF and mysterious >hydrosonic energy are somehow linked. I assume they have the same underlying >cause. That assumption is based on a mere hunch; I cannot point to any data >or hypothesis that links them. The more I learn, the more I begin to suspect >they may not be related after all. At this point, when we talk about "o-u" of >any type, I automatically include the CF work in my mind, which is why I >brought it up in response to Scott's comments. > Michael Huffman writes: > The hypothesis presented by Schwinger via Ron McFee is certainly a viable >one, but I wonder which of the hypotheses is more probable? For example, >has Ron or did Dr. Schwinger calculate what the minimum temperature/pressure >condition would be for the p+D reaction to occur? What would the minimum >temperature/pressure conditions necessarily have to be for these >stoichiometric scenarios? It seems that the lower the temperature/pressure >prerequisite, the more probable it is that the heat is being generated by >that method. It could also be postulated that a chemical burning of one >sort or another is happening first, and then supplying the necessary local >heat to induce a p+D nuclear fusion reaction. This would be would be a >combination of events that could lead to fusion, albeit, in a haphazard >fashion. It would also be considered "cold fusion" only because of the >scales involved. Does anyone have the temp-press numbers for these above >mentioned scenarios? My references are too general. -Knuke > I certainly agree with the assumption made by Jed that electrochemical CF and mysterious hydrosonic energy are somehow linked. That it is Schwinger type fusion is at this time only a hypothesis. However we are very close to having a good scientific proof if the Potapov device works as it is claimed. One liter of water contains enough deuterium to produce 9.1 giga (billion) joules of energy via the pD process. This is about the energy from burning a ton of coal. I think that when the device is tested there is not going to be any question that there can be any chemical source of the excess energy. The pD fusion process will be easy to demonstrate by the depletion of deuterium and the production of 3He. If you consume all the deuterium in one liter of water you will produce .387 liters of 3He. This should be a good bubble. The attractiveness of the hydrosonic method to soundly establishing the scientific existence of this new phenomenon is the large scale of the energy being produced. The Patterson CF power cell is only 1-2 watts. Even the Piantelli gas loaded device only produces around 30 watts and has still not been publicly demonstrated. These devices should also be producing 3He, but at much lower level commensurate with the energy produced. Several people are not particularly concerned with the mechanism from which this energy is coming, however we are all in Jed's "lunatic fringe" until there is a scientifically excepted explanation. It is necessary to understand fully what is happen to develop this new technology and to avoid unnecessary dangers. Potapov's device could be putting out low levels of neutrons and tritium. While these have not been too much a hazard in hydrogen metal load CF devices, there might be some in the larger scale hydrosonic devices. I personally don't think there is going to be a problem however this will have to checked. Schwinger type fusion is not thermonuclear fusion. Thermonuclear fusion is what drives the sun and requires temperatures greater than 10 million degrees centigrade and densities greater than 100 gm/cc. Schwinger fusion occurs in hydrogen loaded Ni, 8.9 gm/cc, and Pd, 12.0 gm/cc. It appears to occur anywhere from -20 degrees C to several hundred degrees. It also may be occurring in cavitated water, 0 to 1 gm/cc. In many ways it is similar to muon catalyzed fusion which has been seen to occur in liquid hydrogen at 13 Kelvin and in 500 degree C gas. It is interesting to note that the first muon catalyzed "Cold Fusion" was p + D + muon -> 3He + muon. There is a good Scientific American article published July 1987, "Cold Nuclear Fusion," by Johann Rafelski and Steven Jones on muon fusion. In the Schwinger form of fusion the hydrogen atoms around the fusing nuclei are allowing the reaction to proceed by coherently absorbing the energy directly into heat. In this sense the material around the fusing nuclei are "catalyzing" the reaction. This is a very subtle effect that has apparently had to be rediscovered several different times in several different forms and still is not very widely recognized. Until I learned of Potapov's device I had been calling Cold Fusion, Solid State Nuclear Fusion, SSNF. Now I am calling it Condensed Mater Nuclear Fusion, or CMNF. Knuke can certainly call it CMKF. Regards, Ron From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Aug 13 23:40:07 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA08737 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 13 Aug 1995 23:40:06 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA08729 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 1995 23:40:01 -0700 Received: from net-1-154.eden.com (net-1-159.eden.com [199.171.21.159]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id BAA03871 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 01:39:55 -0500 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 01:39:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199508140639.BAA03871 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Tent Calorimetry X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: OK, Chris, here's my first cut at this crazy scheme. You need a fairly big enclosure. A tent set up in a much larger room might work out best because it would allow a fairly reliable measurement of delta-T across the tent walls. My "small room" suggestion might suffer in this department...i.e. you'd have some trouble deciding how to measure the temp outside the room, especially if one or more of the walls were exterior ones. You must have some fans to stir the air in the room. Without stirring, things will be bad...I've got pages of data in my lab books to prove it! They'll contribute some heating but it'll be the same for all the tests. You'll want a few sensors inside the tent and a few outside the tent to give you some idea of the thermal uniformity. If the two sets of sensors stay in reasonable agreement with each other, you should just average them to get one inside temp and one outside temp. If they're not in reasonable agreement then you better do something to improve the stirring. In view of the rather different heat capacities of the Yusmar system and the electric calibration heater, I think we're going to have to ignore the initial heating slopes and concentrate on observations made after thermal equilibrium has been achieved. In the case of the Yusmar, we want to let it run under its own thermostat control just as the mfgr intended. Presumably that will keep the water in the system at some constant average temperature which, in turn, will keep the stirred air in your tent at some lower average temperature due to losses thru the tent walls. To run a test on the Yusmar, you'll have to first run the Yusmar until a reasonable degree of thermal equilibrium has been achieved. Then, for a precisely timed period, you will measure the electrical energy consumed by the Yusmar while frequently recording the inside and outside air temperatures. This measurement period should be long compared to the cycle time of the Yusmar and, in fact, should probably be arranged to include precisely an integer number of Yusmar on-off cycles to prevent the obvious errors that could arise otherwise. The temperature measurements should be conducted frequently enough that you can see how far things cool down when the Yusmar is off and how hot they get when it is on. However, make these readings at fixed intervals throughout the entire run so their simple average will correctly represent the time-averaged temperature. For the electrical heater calibration runs, It'd be real nice if you could arrange the heater power to be about the same as the average power consumption of the Yusmar system. Then you could just run the heater steadily without thermostatic control and the equilibrium delta-T would be very similar. Maybe you could acquire several of the little space heaters that typically draw around 1500 watts each. You could do separate calibration runs with 2, 3, and 4 of 'em running to cover the range that the Yusmar is likely to be working in. To analyze the data, I suggest that you compute average power consumption (watts) by dividing total electrical energy consumed (joules) by the length of the data collection period (seconds). Next, average all the temperature readings and subtract to get the average delta-T. The ratio of these two quantities (i.e. degrees C per watt) will be the overall thermal resistance of your tent...unless something special is going on somewhere in the Yusmar system! If you get higher ratios with the Yusmar, that'll mean it is producing anomalous energy. If it behaves anything like the claims we've heard, the ratio will be 2 or 3 times higher! Chris, what do you think? Also, let's hear it from some of the other Vortexans out there...how does this approach sound? Do you think it has a chance of achieving a 10% accuracy? What pitfalls can you foresee? How is Chris going to make the tent? Can he do it without duct-tape? 8-) - Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 00:20:27 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA13211 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 00:20:12 -0700 Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA13181 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 00:19:57 -0700 Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id DAA27490; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 03:19:04 -0400 Date: 14 Aug 95 03:17:38 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Subject: simple comparisons better Message-ID: <950814071737_100060.173_EHK49-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott's last contribution is getting very close to the comparator approach I proposed. Even without a tent, if the external climatic conditions are reasonably constant throughout the series, then runs of a couple of hours with a house-capacity Yusmar should give enough data to compare with an immersion heater in the circuit switched on and with the Yusmar still in the circuit but by-passed, so that the heat capacity of the whole system is identical in both systems. I'm concerned that Chris may not be able to construct anything complicated, like an inner container (tent) and still be able to gain access to the equipment. If he can still get comparative results without too much over-complication then he should go the simple route, and forget trying to measure absolute thermal quantities.IMO. Norman From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 02:36:44 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA26289 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 02:36:43 -0700 Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA26281 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 02:36:38 -0700 Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id FAA09993; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 05:36:03 -0400 Date: 14 Aug 95 05:34:28 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Tents etc Message-ID: <950814093428_100433.1541_BHG110-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Scott, Obviously the temp outside the tent needs to be pretty constant, to allow a consistent difference. But you seem to be implying something more? Maybe that's just my impression. Norman, I agree with what you say, as well. My big worry is that I can't/don't want to mess with the pump-motor-Yusmar assembly, which is probably all welded together anyway. I think that the only way around that is to compare the whole machine with resistance heaters, using a fan to stir the air. The latter will stabilise the temp rather more quickly, but with the same power they should both (eventually) give the same result. Actually, a camping tent would probably be ideal, but not readily available I fear. I guess that the thing will need to be set up in a room, as you suggest. Ouch, thermal capacity of walls, extra time needed to settle, ouch. I don't like any of it, and those dear old wooden frames with polyethylene double glazing we used to make environmental enclosures with would be one hell of a bind to build. Without duct tape, too. "Excuse me, sir. Why is it that you have 500 packets of Blu-tack in your bags?" Depressing, innit? Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 06:58:25 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA23501 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 06:58:21 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA23434 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 06:58:05 -0700 Received: from net-1-157.eden.com (net-1-157.eden.com [199.171.21.157]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id IAA22698 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 08:57:59 -0500 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 08:57:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199508141357.IAA22698 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: sticky details X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Norman, The main problem with replacing the Yusmar with an immersion heater is that you must MODIFY the Yusmar system to insert it. That modification, no matter how slight, would allow the VIZOR folks to say, "Well, of course it didn't perform as expected, this gadget you stuck in here has shifted the phase conjugate resonance modes!" My vote is strongly in favor of a test method that "touches" the factory-assembled Yusmar system only in one place: the on-off switch! Chris said, >Obviously the temp outside the tent needs to be pretty constant, to allow a >consistent difference. But you seem to be implying something more? Nope, that's it. Even if things drift a bit during the data collection period, you should be OK for 10% accuracy, provided that you can get a sizeable delta-T. We ought to work out what size tent and what kind of walls would give, say, a 10 degree C delta-T. What is the nominal power comsumption of the Yusmar-2 system? >"Excuse me, sir. Why is it that you have 500 packets of Blu-tack in your >bags?" Chris, you just smile and say, "I've come to repair Communism, Sir". Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 07:02:15 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA24139 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 07:02:14 -0700 Received: from hercule.utcluj.ro (root hercule.utcluj.ro [141.85.128.253]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA23694 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 06:59:26 -0700 Received: by hercule.utcluj.ro (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0shyvs-000MSwC; Mon, 14 Aug 95 15:47 EET DST Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 15:47:55 +0300 (EET DST) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Friends, Bucharest Report-1. Main subject: Potapov's behavior. I have lost the connection with the group for 4 days due to the interruption of the e-mail system. After reading some 35 messages from you, I am starting to convey the information received during my visit at the Institute of Research and Design for Electrote- chnics Bucharest, Wednesday August 9,1995. I have seen there: a) one Yusmar-1' complete'; tested in July 1994 with negative results. b) one Yusmar-2 + an immersion pump; not tested. I have received there: a) the research report; b) prospects of the pumps, centrifugal and immersion multistage. c) different information; and I am starting with this. The leader of the research group, Phys. Mihai Iovea has collabo- rated with Potapov and has received very limited help when the tests have gone wrong. "Use washers!" was the basic advice. No explanation about the mode of work of the device. However the buyer has got the prospect of the heat generator. (see please my translation) and has chosen a _different_ set-up. Our conclusion about Potapov: if somebody buys a few Yusmars he is a client and receives a few data; if somebody buys the devices + the license and in the respective country a patent is issued for the machine, this one is a CLIENT and gets all the data necessary for working well with the systems and implementing them on large scale. Without patenting and licensing anybody can copy the thermogene- rators and therefore the clients receive incomplete data and a St. Nicholas type help (this saint helps only those who are able to help themselves, when the drowning muzhik asked for help, St Nicholas advised him to move his arms and feet and to try to swim). Two examples: 1) Potapov tells that in his tube, cavitation take place between the different layers of water; or the unique possibility for accomplishing this is by recirculation of water through the by- pass pipe. It seems that without this the whole device is just an simple tube. Potapov's message is not quite explicit and the clients speculate, find other explanations and get negative results. E.g. during the Bucharest test, the bypass line was obviously cool. No o/u as achieved. 2) Potapov alludes to a "Potapovian Washerology" as the secret of a well tempered productive system. Yuri calls them "diaphragms" and they are plates or rings with calibrated holes- from the diameter of the pipe till 'blinds' i.e. with no hole at all introduced in the basic (small) circuit. As in the case of the Bucharest test he doesn't say where you have to introduce these washers and why, the client speculates again and, if he is not trying systematically, logically and persistently enough, he fails. A lost client is a smaller loss that a lost license, provided that Yuri has plenty of CLIENTS and it seems he really has quite a lot. In my opinion 'washerology" is used for regulating the flows in the circuits; actually the systems are composed of: (1)-the small loop: pump-Yusmar-pump, and three other circuits grafted on the former: (2)-the recirculation loop, grafted on the Yusmar, the heart of the device; (3)-the great loop, connected to the Yusmar-pump branch; (4)-the motor's circuit which recovers a part of the heat dissipated by the motor. Washerology has to learn how to regulate the flows in (2)- a maximum has to be achieved- and the relative flows in (1) and (3), that is direct and indirect flow through the Yusmar. You can calculate pressure loss in the great loop and, I suppose this can be used for the choice of the first value of the washer. See please the Belarus report: it pleads for the use of 'restrictors' and 'elements for the control of the thermodynamic processes in the system" or says: "till now we couldn't study the possible constructive variants of the controllers of the hydrodynamic processes in the small loop". This is applied washerology and it's clear that the valves from the system are to be used only as open/shut Y/N controls. Interesting: Potapov told to Iovea that working with anti- freezing liquid (water and ethylene glycol) the COP values are increased some 10-20 %. Otherwise if Potapov or Griggs is able to achieve o/u with organic liquids as turbine oil, any discussion re. nuclear effects is useless. Cavitation as such is the explanation and I see no other possibility as a form of ZPE. (end of part 1) All the best wishes from Peter!  From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 08:16:04 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA07082 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 08:15:57 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA07069 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 08:15:50 -0700 Received: from d206.aa.net (d206.aa.net [204.157.220.206]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA20732 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 08:15:38 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 08:15:38 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508141515.IAA20732 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: Tents etc Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris, All the suggestions have been good so far, and don't get depressed or worried about the Vortex Group jumping all over you. This is supposed to be fun. One thing that you might consider doing is starting each of the tests at the same time of day, and ending them at the same time. If I were doing this sort of thing, I would put a thermometer outside of a window where it was visible to you from inside the room. I would put another set of maybe two or three thermometers in the room, and another two in the tent with the devices. I would put both the Yusmar and the electrical heater in the tent and leave them in there so that the mass was the same at all times. I would arrange all the thermometers so that I could read them without having to do much moving around. If necessary I would use binoculars or a monocular to read the small numbers of the thermometers most distant to my position. I would use plastic paint drop cloths, sail cloth, tarps, parachutes or anything else that was locally available for cheap or free for the tent. Plastic drop cloths would be great because it would allow a certain amount of light into the tent. I don't see how you can build anything like this without duct tape. A small fan inside the tent, and a medium sized one in the room should be used. They should be left on at all times. I would install a small light weight monocular through the wall of the tent so that the innermost thermometers could be read without opening the tent and entering it. If you have thermocouples, well then just run the probes through the wall and read the meter from the outside. I would put a chair next to the window, have the wattmeter right next to you, and just sit there for the duration of the test run, and record the values of the power in, temps, and the time of the reading. I would take readings of all the variables every ten or fifteen minutes. If you are not taking a laptop, I would have premade forms on a clipboard and two pencils ready before the test started. Take two backup fuses for everything electrical. I would start recording the instant everything is turned on, and quit when everything has reached equilibrium after turning everything off. I wouldn't let anyone in or out of the room during the test, except for emergencies, and I would record the number of times that occurred. I would try and lock the door from the inside, and open it and close it quickly if it became necessary to let yourself or anybody else in or out. Try to keep the arrangement of the room as static as possible e.i. don't take things in and out of the room, as you will be carrying the heat in the objects in and out. I would make up a bunch of cold sandwiches and drinks, and have them by the chair, so that you don't have to "break for lunch", and I would do six or eight hour runs. I would do a Yusmar run on one day, a coil run the next, and repeat several times. You'll be bored, but you'll just have to keep your focus. Maintain your discipline, and be firm with your hosts in this regard. Keep the amount of talking down to a minimum during the tests. It's distracting, and you'll have plenty of time to flap your jaws when the test run is completed. Since you will want a temperature differential of at least 20-30 degrees F between the room and the inside of the tent, and it will probably be pretty warm in the room to begin with, you probably won't have to go to the bathroom very often, as you'll sweat out most of the liquid that you take in. Maybe you should take two hankies to mop yourself off with. Hankies also come in handy during times of political instability. You can put them on your head, and your chances of survival are greatly increased. You tie the corners in knots like the guys in the Monty Python sketches to keep the hanky from falling off as you RUN AWAY! Soldiers and revolutionaries tend to look for visual clues before they shoot, and the "hanky on the head trick" makes you look goofy and nonthreatening. It confuses them long enough for you to make good your escape, and provides comic relief. It's worked for me many times. Best Wishes! -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 08:45:18 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA13052 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 08:45:16 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA13022 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 08:45:09 -0700 Received: from s1c0p1.aa.net (s1c0p1.aa.net [204.157.220.165]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA22331 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 08:45:06 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 08:45:06 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508141545.IAA22331 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re:Washerology Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Our conclusion about Potapov: if somebody buys a few Yusmars he >is a client and receives a few data; if somebody buys the devices >+ the license and in the respective country a patent is issued >for the machine, this one is a CLIENT and gets all the data >necessary for working well with the systems and implementing them >on large scale. >2) Potapov alludes to a "Potapovian Washerology" as the secret of >a well tempered productive system. Yuri calls them "diaphragms" >and they are plates or rings with calibrated holes- from the >diameter of the pipe till 'blinds' i.e. with no hole at all >introduced in the basic (small) circuit. >As in the case of the Bucharest test he doesn't say where you >have to introduce these washers and why, the client speculates >again and, if he is not trying systematically, logically and >persistently enough, he fails. A lost client is a smaller loss >that a lost license, provided that Yuri has plenty of CLIENTS and >it seems he really has quite a lot. All the best wishes from Peter!  > Dear Peter, You should tell Potopov that in the West this would be called a boatload of baloney! He is selling either machines that work as claimed or he is not. IF he is selling tin cans with tubes attached for two thousand dollars, and then telling people to go figure it out for themselves, then he deserves to be horsewhipped. The amount of time and money that has been spent buying and investigating his device is now running into sizable figures. If he is selling incomplete devices because he is worried about patent theft, then it makes me wonder if he even has a patent. If he expects everybody else to do the experimentation for him then the experimenter should be the one applying for the patent on anything that results in a discovery. He evidently has no respect whatsoever for his "clients". -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 09:19:50 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA19842 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 09:19:41 -0700 Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA19805 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 09:19:29 -0700 Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA03817; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 12:18:37 -0400 Date: 14 Aug 95 12:17:44 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Here we go again. Message-ID: <950814161744_100433.1541_BHG50-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Dear all, This business is so frustrating that I have decided to quote one limerick in each posting from now on. Until I run our of clean ones, that is, which might not take very long I suppose. There was a young lady from Exeter, So pretty, that men craned their necks at her. One went so far As to wave - from his car - The distinguishing mark of his sex at her. After reading what Peter has to say, I have concluded that all I will be able to do is to test the machine as found. No bloody washerology for me, mate, it just isn't practicable. I stick to what I say, though. A 'tent' type test with the only control used the on/off switch - Scott is right. Not a prospect which enthralls, though, is it? Knuke, I'm not so much bothered about what people here will think. I simply want to do the best possible job, and to do it in such a way that I will have given the thing the best and fairest possible test under the circumstances. I do not want to do what ENECO did, on the other hand I don't want to make a slip which might give a false positive. Perhaps there IS a good reason for doing a good job as this group sees it though - there's no point in bringing back results which have poor credibility, is there? All the other points you make are good. As are all the points everybody else has made, too. Assuming this trip comes off OK - I really need to be back in the UK for 26-27 August, for personal reasons - then I want a test of the thing _as a heating system_, not as a 'thermogenerator' or whatever. And I'll go with a printed digest of all the advice. PS - I came on-line to send this, and found Knuke's comment on washerology. I have to say that he says what I would say, only he says it better than I could have said it. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 09:24:10 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA20734 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 09:24:08 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA20698 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 09:23:59 -0700 Received: from s1c1p4.aa.net (s1c1p4.aa.net [204.157.220.176]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA24512 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 09:23:50 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 09:23:50 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508141623.JAA24512 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: sticky details Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott sez: >My vote is strongly in favor of a test method that "touches" the >factory-assembled Yusmar system only in one place: the on-off switch! > >Chris said, > >>Obviously the temp outside the tent needs to be pretty constant, to allow a >>consistent difference. But you seem to be implying something more? > >Nope, that's it. Even if things drift a bit during the data collection >period, you should be OK for 10% accuracy, provided that you can get a >sizeable delta-T. We ought to work out what size tent and what kind of >walls would give, say, a 10 degree C delta-T. What is the nominal power >comsumption of the Yusmar-2 system? > Chris, I agree with Scott on both points, provided that some discipline is maintained with regard to the points mentioned in my previous post. A simple "space heater" (electrical resistance coil) and a small circulating fan would give you the proper comparison without tampering with the delicate and mysterious combination of tubes, cans, and washers that is being called a Yusmar. If it doesn't give a COP of at least 1.5, then it is now quite obvious that you are required to buy it, take it home, and fool around with it till you can make it work yourself. If this is the case, I would just say thanks, but no thanks, to your hosts, go home and build one yourself for fifty bucks, and if you get it to work, get a patent on it. Chances are you will invent something that has never even crossed Potopov's extraordinarily little mind. You might as well enjoy the fruits of your labors. -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 11:39:29 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA19777 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 11:39:24 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA19711 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 11:39:09 -0700 Received: from s1c1p7.aa.net (s1c1p7.aa.net [204.157.220.179]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA02582 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 11:38:58 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 11:38:58 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508141838.LAA02582 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: More Reports Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >You're probably being too kind, but I respect your concern. Do I know what >I'm doing? No. Do you? -Knuke > > Occassionally I have evidence of having gotten something right. One of the things I gotten right is that at first blush I will completely misunderstand a thing. {!!} V ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 11:39:49 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA19869 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 11:39:46 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA19816 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 11:39:34 -0700 Received: from s1c1p7.aa.net (s1c1p7.aa.net [204.157.220.179]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA02584 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 11:39:00 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 11:39:00 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508141839.LAA02584 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: hydrogen gas reactions Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>Michael, >> >> >> This makes me think that it is possibly not steam at all, but >> >> partially steam with decomposed hydrgen and oxygen gases mixed in. >> >>If your right then stand well back behind a blast wall, cos there is a big bomb >>waiting to 'splode!!! >> >>Unless the recomb. happens within a micro-structured catalyst at a safe speed, >>probably what is happening in some of the Ni or Pd electrodes in other >>versions, then the mixture, which might be stoichometric, is very unstable. >> >>Norman. >Norman, > > What you are saying is true I think for large quantities of hydrogen >mixed with air. This mixture would be unstable and highly explosive. >According to my reference, pure hydrogen burns quite calmly in air if burned >with a blowpipe burner. It cautions that the handling of the material must >be done with care. It doesn't give the proper procedure for igniting a >blowpipe burner, but I would think that holding a lit match over the hole, >and very slowly opening the valve would do the trick. I would think that >there would be a loud pop, and then the gas would burn very evenly >thereafter. However what I am postulating is that when the gas bubble >collapses, only a very small amount of water is being decomposed. Perhaps >on the order of only one or two molecules per bubble. Under this condition, >the "'splosion" would naturally be very local, and the energy released would >be easily absorbed by the surrounding liquid, and the explosion would be >almost immediately extinguished. Since hydrogen burns with a very pale, >almost invisible blue flame, and all of the reports of "blue steam" and a >pulsating Sonoluminescence have been made, this would tend to support this >hypothesis. > There are other chemical reactions that could be occurring as well. >Hydrogen "burns" in the presence of chlorine gas. Chlorine is present in >almost all drinking water supplies around the world, and the gas is >constantly being released. In this case, hydrochloric acid gas emissions >would need to be tested for. Nascent oxygen is also a byproduct of mixing >chlorine with water. Nascent oxygen is very active, and will not rest until >it is combined either with another atom of its' own kind or with another >substance. Since a certain amount of static electricity is also reported to >be present in the operation of these devices, Ozone could be forming and >decomposing as well. Other chemicals are also present. The noble gases >have always been considered to be inert, and unable to combine with any >other element, but in the not too distant past, xenon was forced to combine, >I believe, with tetrafluoride to produce a stable gas. Fluorine is also one >of the things that has been added to drinking water supplies in some >countries. As I said in an earlier post, there are a number of different >forms of carbon present in these systems as well. With the number of >different possible chemical reactions being so large, I tend to think that >we haven't really given this area a proper look. > Knuke: we have a Brown's Gas Generator if you are interested in experience with how hydrogen must burn. In the context in which you are thinking, most likely it will not have an explosive quality, rather an implosive one, which will be rather masked by the maintainance of elevated pressure in the system. BUT it is actually fairly difficult to get the combustion going. And I doubt very much that it would ignite in the chamber except and unless you have enough emf to ionize the gases. Also, noise is not very much broadcast by the combustion of hydrogen and oxygen, if it burns implosively with a supply of oxygen (other than the atmosphere or as dissolved in the water, or as sourced by the clorine chain). The only noise to be heard is the hissing of the gas in the lines. Or, if you ignite a volume of stociometric hyro/oxy the noise "pop" is directly proportional to the volume shock wave generated by the implosion. As for first ignition, you simply flame the gas coming out of the tip and there is almost no noise at all, no popping. This flow, if too strong, simply blows out the flame...and will not ignite. That is how dangerous it is. Remember, the Hindenburg did not explode as stupidly reported in the newspapers. It simply burned, rather slowly actually. The proof is the photos and the people who walked away from it. But put a match in a static pool of well mixed oxy/hydro, well, fastest reaction known, hell of a shock wave, implosion POP if stoichio mixture, explosive front if mix is not stoichio as other gases must be displaced as hydro and oxy move to do their bonding. any hints here for you... ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 14 23:56:19 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA04736 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 23:56:18 -0700 Received: from hercule.utcluj.ro (root hercule.utcluj.ro [141.85.128.253]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA04674 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 23:55:48 -0700 Received: by hercule.utcluj.ro (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0siFvY-000MNWC; Tue, 15 Aug 95 09:56 EET DST Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 09:56:44 +0300 (EET DST) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Friends, Bucharest Report-2. Main subject: Description of the test. Wednesday, August 9, 1995 I have visited the Institute of Research and Design for Electrotechnics in Bucharest and have discussed with Phys. Mihai Iovea, the head of laboratory 57 "Computerized Technologies for Non-conventional Control" (tomography). This laboratory has performed the unique testing of a Potapov device in Romania, July 1994. The Institute has a good reputation, my first collaboration with it was plasma deposition of titanium nitride on small electrodes back to 1972. Later we worked together for measuring and improving the electrical characteristics of plastics. After obtaining negative results, receiving some messages against Potapov from the Moldavian Academy via the Romanian Academy, and due to lack of funds, the tests were interrupted. As told in the first part of this report the lab has a Yusmar-1 'complete' for a 2nd generation setup and a Yusmar-2 + a pump for a 3rd generation setup, all bought from Potapov. For direct information you can get in touch with: Phys. MIHAI IOVEA, Institute of Research and Design for Electrotechnics, ICPE, Splaiul Unirii 313 74204 Bucharest-3, ROMANIA Fax: 401-321-3769; 401-322-2748. E-mail: Mihai is relatively young (41) and is ready to collaborate. Bill, may I ask you to subscribe him at Vortex to facilitate the dialogue? Thank you in advance To be more precise: the actual test was performed in collabora- tion with the Polytechnical University Bucharest , Faculty of Mechanical Engineering, Chair of Thermotechnics, Thermal and Refrigerator Machines, Prof. Marieta Grigoriu. The Yusmar-1 comprises a cavitation tube, a pump with its motor, and the connection piping. The custom documents say it has 120 Kg weight but actually it has some 70-80 kg. It is put on a frame and has wheels. The outer diameters measured with my vernier calipers are: cavitation tube-58 mm; pressure pipe: 42 mm; bypass tube:21.5 mm outlet from the Yusmar: 42 mm. The corresponding i.d. values are 50; 35: 16.5 and 33 mm. These values are in concordance with the ratios recommended by Potapov, in order to have a functional by- pass line. At the outlet, a washer will be used for improving the hydrodynamics in the Yusmar. The actual experimental setup has used the primary heating agent, water from the thermogenerator to heat secondary water flowing through an heat exchanger. The heat exchanger and all the other parts of the setup were thermally isolated in order to reduce the heat losses to minimum. I quote from the report: The experimental rig from the laboratory of thermotechnics of the Polytechnical University comprises: -the heat generator representing the secret of the inventor, which provides the warm water (primary agent) going to the heat exchanger; -the electrical motor moving the water pump from the primary circuit, -the wattmetric bridge for measuring the power consumption of the motor; _the flowmeter used for measuring the flow from the primary circuit, -the heat exchanger, cylindrical with an inner coil, the primary agent is circulated inside the coil, the secondary water flows in the cylinder and goes to the drain or to a measuring vessel ; the flow is calculated by measuring the time necessary for the water to fill this calibrated vessel. The following parameters were measured at given time intervals: inlet temp., primary water--t1. outlet temp., primary water--t2 inlet temp., secondary water--twi outlet temp., secondary water --twe. all deg. Celsius' power consumed read at the wattmeter--W, temp. at the surfaces of the motor, the generator, deg Celsius flow of primary water, l/s flow of the secondary water, kg/s times of the readings, minutes pressure of water in the primary circuit, bars room temperature and atmospheric pressure. Calibrated thermoresistors and -couples were used. The heat generated was calculated from the heat taken over by the secondary agent and the heat losses calculated on basis of the dimensions of the heat exchanger, the motor, the heat generator and some parts which cannot be isolated. The study refers to the influence of the sense of rotation of the motor-direct and reverse and of the washers with different holes in the primary circuit. The maximum COP was 85%. Tomorrow I'll continue with part 3 and will present the actual data, which are in part not consistent. However the study gives some useful information. And what's more important I will start a new stage of research on this device. As regarding the immersion pump: the prospect I have says maximum working temperature 25 deg. Celsius; I am an engineer and the professional deontology interdicts to work with it in warm water unless I don't get some data from the Moldavian manufacturer: Works HIDROPOMPA, 277001, Kishinev, Gagarin avenue No 2. Will ask prospects in English for your information. (Due to e-mail troubles-busy! I couldn't send this Monday). Best regards, Peter From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 01:22:57 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA13020 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 01:22:56 -0700 Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA13010 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 01:22:50 -0700 Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id EAA26894; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 04:22:18 -0400 Date: 15 Aug 95 04:19:31 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Washerology Message-ID: <950815081931_100433.1541_BHG90-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Peter, It isn't reasonable for me to indulge in 'washerology' in St Petersburg. Let me explain why. It may well be regarded as 'unhelpful', in fact it is cold reality. Let us assume that I (on behalf of this group) swallow my justifiable anger with Potapov - which I will try to do, and I'm good at it - and try to play games with the Yusmar at St Pete. I don't know where to put the washers, I don't have any washers, and I don't have the faintest idea what size washers to put on it anyway. If you really think that I could handle a situation like that, and bring it to a successful conclusion in Russia with the clock ticking for my return - then you have an unjustifiably high opinion of my abilities. It is not possible for me to visit a foreign country and work blind on a piece of engineering development with any hope of success. Therefore I shall not try to do so. Either the thing works - in which case we shall try to move forward with it - or it does not, in which case Jed and Gene and I (and, I think, Dr Clarke) will conclude that the whole thing is simply not worth all the effort and expense involved. In all engineering and business activities, it is necessary to limit one's investment. In no engineering or business activity with which I have ever been involved has there been such bizarre behaviour by the supplier. If a supplier of equipment in this country or the USA (or any Western nation) had behaved in this way, he would have been bankrupted by lawsuits, whether his machine 'worked' or not. Now, if Potapov will give full engineering details of these 'washers', and send drawings of where they should be fitted, and the relationship between the washer size and the radiator arrangement for a Yusmar 2, then I shall arrange for these washers to be manufactured and take them with me. The machine should of course be delivered with the washers and full instructions for their fitting. You and I know perfectly well that no such information would be forthcoming from Potapov if I asked him for it, so I am not going to bother. I will test the machine as it stands, and report back. I will test it up to and including a 'tent' arrangement if necessary and possible, I will give it the best and fairest test I can. I want it to work, I happen to believe it CAN work. However, if it doesn't work this time then Jed and Gene and I will abandon this project and publish our findings. If such a report is negative, then it will leave the question open, and it will acknowledge your remarkable efforts, but it will include a summary of our view of the general attitude and behaviour of Potapov in relation to ourselves. You are suggesting that we are being unreasonable. It is true that it was we who approached (you say 'attacked', I think you mean approached) Potapov. However, he made it perfectly clear that we could expect to see o-u with the devices which he was perfectly willing to let us give him plenty of money for, providing that we drove the machines in the manner which he told us to do. We genuinely and honestly tried to do as he said. We approached him repeatedly, he was of absolutely NO HELP whatsoever, and Gene and Jed and I are pretty furious with him (but most certainly NOT with you, you have tried very hard to help). "After the first failed experiment we began to convince ourselves that Potapov is the fault. It is perfectly possible, but we will know this with certainty only after many work and after Potapov's visit to the US." No, after the first failed experiment - and all the subsequent failed experiments and no help from Potapov - it was the failure of those experiments and the lack of help from Potapov which began to convince us that it was Potapov's fault. "His program depends on the offers of his potential partners. He is the inventor or the owner of the invention and he is the person enrightened to demonstrate the o/u performance of his machine." He will get no offers from THESE potential partners unless we can see the machine work under our control. He may have the right to demonstrate the machines to us, but he has never offered such a demonstration. The 'demonstration' in Kishinev was useless from any engineering point of view. Peter, do not misunderstand me. I respect your abilities and your determination. You in turn should appreciate that we have our own reality to contend with. We have made all possible efforts to bridge the cultural divide between ourselves and Potapov, he has made precisely no effort to reciprocate our offers, or our good will, or our efforts. Warmest regards, I hope we shall meet again soon - in happier circumstances. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 06:30:11 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA12649 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 06:30:09 -0700 Received: from roimar.imar.ro (roimar.imar.ro [193.226.4.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA12581 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 06:29:52 -0700 Received: by roimar (MX V3.1C) id 23319; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 15:37:34 0200 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 15:37:25 0200 From: itimc roimar.imar.ro To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Message-ID: <00994EAD.7C553CC0.23319 roimar> Subject: source of energy Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Subject: the energy source. Dear Vortexian friends, A few days ago when my e-mail was dead, Ron discussed about the source of energy in cold fusion systems. Now, as an intermezzo between Bucharest Reports 2 and 3, I want to present my opinion in this problem. Obviously, what I have called "Isotopic Democracy" i.e.the quasi- equivalence of hydrogen and deuterium (or light/heavy water) in some cold fusion systems- and more recently in the cavitation systems-is of great concern for those colleagues who are firmly convinced that the source of energy in the systems of Mills, Patterson, Dufour, Piantelli, and now Griggs, Huffman, Potapov HAS to be some kind of fusion or nuclear process. The direct way to prove it is, as Ron suggests, to increase the concentration of deuterium; however the indirect way, i.e. to use de-deuterated water is also feasible. There are commercial sources for light water with a drastically reduced content of deuterium. As far I remember, Mills has worked with such a stuff and has obtained a null result, that's: no difference. What about Patterson? Or Piantelli? These are crucial experiments which can reduce the theoretical chaos which dominates the scientific field. I have started to discuss the catalytic character of the CF phenomena long time ago and except the experimental reality (see Patterson and Arata) nobody has noticed or commented the idea. These phenomena can take place only in the ultrasensitive active sites on the surface of some solids. This is the reason for the difficult reproducibility. I have studied Catalysis from a epistemological point of view and have concluded that the essence of it is a kind of synergetical cooperation between different levels of matter to achieve effects which are otherwise impossible. Some natural phenomena as photo- synthesis or fixation of nitrogen can illustrate the potentialities of catalysis. These miracles are restricted to certain sites. What have catalysis and cavitation in common? (Except the first two letters). It seems that both the catalytic active sites and the cavitation bubbles are able to promote the cooperation of the matter at the atomar level with the matter in the form which is known as vacuum; the later is persuaded to provide the former with a fraction of its huge energy. On this basis, I think , "Cold Fusion" and energy generation in cavitational devices are just different facets of the same cooperative energetical phenomena. Peter Gluck  From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 07:26:48 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA22293 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 07:26:46 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA22269 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 07:26:38 -0700 Received: from net-1-188.eden.com (net-1-188.eden.com [199.171.21.188]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id JAA10610 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 09:26:29 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 09:26:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199508151426.JAA10610 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: washers and words X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Peter, I'm afraid Chris is right. He'll be in no position to experiment with flow apertures in St. Petersburg, especially if the Yusmar system is all welded together like most we've seen in the photos. Besides, he's going to test a factory-assembled Yusmar system. Surely you're not proposing that Potapov would deliberately ship non-functional systems! By testing a factory-assembled system are we not ENSURING that it is ALREADY tuned properly and operating at peak efficiency? Another thing: I don't buy this client vs CLIENT thing. Surely Potapov must realize that if several independant labs around the world could confirm his performance claims that he would then have a CCC L III EEEEEEE N N TTTTTTT C L I E NN N T C L I E N N N T C L I EEEE N N N T C L I E N N N T C L I E N NN T CCC LLLLLL III EEEEEEE N N T on his hands! No, I don't buy his attitude at all. IMHO, his behavior is more consistent with one who knows (or fears) what our results will be and who is trying to maximize his profits before the roof caves in! I repeat (with emphasis): WHERE IS DR. POTAPOV'S OWN TEST REPORT ON HIS OWN DEVICE !!!!!!????????? Another point, Peter: Please take it easy on us guys who have only studied English all our lives! :-) You sent me to the dictionary twice with your recent postings: >From Webster: deontology - "the science or theory of duty or moral obligation; the ethics of duty" epistemological - "pertaining to the science of the method or grounds of knowledge, especially with reference to its limits and validity" Congratulations, Peter! I am truly honored to have made your acquaintance. Despite my negative attitude (expressed above), I sincerely hope that Chris succeeds wildly in St. Pete and that we all get to cooperate in developing this technology. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 07:32:51 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA23320 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 07:32:50 -0700 Received: from hercule.utcluj.ro (hercule.utcluj.ro [141.85.128.253]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA22389 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 07:27:08 -0700 Received: by hercule.utcluj.ro (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0siMwX-000MRvC; Tue, 15 Aug 95 17:26 EET DST Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 17:26:13 +0300 (EET DST) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Subject: washerology Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Re: Washerology. Chris, I have received now your message re. washerology. Given that: a) All I want to do was and is to help, b) I am convinced that washerology is necessary from the TECHNICAL point of view--is the unavoidable adaptation of the heat source to the heat consumer-, I suggest to adapt the following strategy: 1) I will ask Potapov to convey to me as much as possible of the elements of washerology _now_, 2) If your St. Pete collaborators are educated washerologists and/or are in direct contact with "YUSMAR" and they can solve the problem(s), OK! If not, I will do my best to get the necessary help from Potapov in real, useful time. In my opinion this action is of strategical importance ; all my efforts are dedicated to the success of it which can signify a new era in energetics. Best regards from Peter!  From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 09:03:30 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA11351 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 09:03:21 -0700 Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA11285 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 09:03:06 -0700 Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA22020; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 12:02:33 -0400 Date: 15 Aug 95 12:00:16 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Subject: washerology Message-ID: <950815160016_72240.1256_EHB148-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: >internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Dear Peter, You wrote: "1) I will ask Potapov to convey to me as much as possible of the elements of washerology _now_," Potapov should have done that three months ago. We have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on this already, we are not going to spend much more. "2) If your St. Pete collaborators are educated washerologists and/or are in direct contact with "YUSMAR" and they can solve the problem(s), OK! If not, I will do my best to get the necessary help . . ." They are not educated washerologists. If there is anything you can do to get the necessary help, you must do it now or never. I hope that you understand that by the standards of American or British business law, if this "washerology" stuff is true, then Potapov has committed a serious criminal offense. I know that cultural standards are different, so I do not want to overstate this or sound alarmist, but you and Potapov should both realize that by our standards he is wa-a-a-y over the line. You are not allowed to sell equipment and withhold vital information necessary to operate it. There are modern consumer protection laws and laws going back a thousand years regarding "fitness for the intended purpose," implied warrantees, and basic customer support. What it boils down to is that if you sell Product X for Application Y, and X does not do Y, you have broken the law. Furthermore, you are *never* allowed to play this guessing game with your customers the way Potapov has done. This is so completely out of line and unheard of that any American businessman or scientist hearing this story -- or reading it in "Infinite Energy" -- will instantly conclude that Potapov is a fraud and a thief. We will not say that, because we have not reached that firm conclusion. We know that there are different cultural standards. On the other hand, we do plan to tell the story and related the details exactly as they happened, and I am sure all of our readers will reach that unavoidable conclusion. Capitalism is grounded in certain cultural and legal mores that have been uprooted in the Former Soviet Union. I am aware of that fact, because I know lots of Russians and I have read various books and magazine articles. No doubt Robert is a world class expert on this subject and he could easily teach a thing or two to the people writing these books. Capitalism depends upon many ancient laws and traditions. It is not merely an abstract economic system that you can impose on any people of any culture. In spite of your broad background and incredible depth of experience in management, technology, language and culture, you, Peter, are not fully aware of the mores and standards of business behavior in the West. I am sure you are not, because of the tone of your note to Chris. No doubt, you know far more about our economic system then we know about yours, but you do not know it well enough to gauge our reaction to this "washerology" stuff. Chris explained that he will never attempt to deal with the situation you describe. He is quite right, and I stand behind him 100%. We make every reasonable effort to accommodate other people's cultures. Lord knows I have to do that every day dealing with my Japanese friends! But there is a limit beyond which we cannot compromise, and Potapov reached that limit some time ago. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 09:19:28 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA14540 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 09:19:16 -0700 Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA14456 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 09:18:54 -0700 Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA03170; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 12:18:00 -0400 Date: 15 Aug 95 12:15:56 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Subject: washerology Message-ID: <950815161555_72240.1256_EHB218-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: >internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Dear Peter, You wrote: "1) I will ask Potapov to convey to me as much as possible of the elements of washerology _now_," Potapov should have done that three months ago. We have spent thousands and thousands of dollars and many weeks of hard work on this already, we are not going to spend much more. "2) If your St. Pete collaborators are educated washerologists and/or are in direct contact with "YUSMAR" and they can solve the problem(s), OK! If not, I will do my best to get the necessary help . . ." They are not educated washerologists. If there is anything you can do to get the necessary help, you must do it now or never. I hope that you understand that by the standards of American or British business law, if this "washerology" stuff is true, then Potapov has committed a serious criminal offense. I know that cultural standards are different, so I do not want to overstate this or sound alarmist, but you and Potapov should both realize that by our standards he is wa-a-a-y over the line. You are not allowed to sell equipment and withhold vital information necessary to operate it. There are modern consumer protection laws and laws going back a thousand years regarding "fitness for the intended purpose," implied warrantees, and basic customer support. What it boils down to is that if you sell Product X for Application Y, and X does not do Y, you have broken the law. Furthermore, you are *never* allowed to play this guessing game with your customers the way Potapov has done. This is so completely out of line and unheard of that any American businessman or scientist hearing this story -- or reading it in "Infinite Energy" -- will instantly conclude that Potapov is a fraud and a thief. We will not say that, because we have not reached that firm conclusion. We know that there are different cultural standards. On the other hand, we do plan to tell the story and related the details exactly as they happened, and I am sure all of our readers will reach that unavoidable conclusion. Capitalism is grounded in certain cultural and legal mores that have been uprooted in the Former Soviet Union. I am aware of that fact, because I know lots of Russians and I have read various books and magazine articles. No doubt Robert is a world class expert on this subject and he could easily teach a thing or two to the people writing these books. Capitalism depends upon many ancient laws and traditions. It is not merely an abstract economic system that you can impose on any people of any culture. In spite of your broad background and incredible depth of experience in management, technology, language and culture, you, Peter, are not fully aware of the mores and standards of business behavior in the West. I am sure you are not, because of the tone of your note to Chris. No doubt, you know far more about our economic system then we know about yours, but you do not know it well enough to gauge our reaction to this "washerology" stuff. Chris explained that he will never attempt to deal with the situation you describe. He is quite right, and I stand behind him 100%. We make every reasonable effort to accommodate other people's cultures. Lord knows I have to do that every day dealing with my Japanese friends! But there is a limit beyond which we cannot compromise, and Potapov reached that limit some time ago. I think perhaps the only person in our group who can rescue this situation is Robert. I am sure he knows far more about dealing with Russians - American ventures than the rest of us combined. If there is a hidden science of "washerology" and Peter cannot get Potapov to cough it up, perhaps Robert can. I myself suspect it is a lot of bunk. Evasive crap -- to be precise. Potapov is behaving just like Meyer or one of the other certified members of the Lunatic Fringe. Their "inventions" are like these wooden Russian dolls within dolls, except that you never, ever get to the heart of the matter, no matter how many layers you strip off. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 12:26:59 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA22779 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 12:25:49 -0700 Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA22726 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 12:25:33 -0700 Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id PAA00415; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 15:24:23 -0400 Date: 15 Aug 95 15:08:22 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Metal discs with holes in them Message-ID: <950815190822_100433.1541_BHG89-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Peter, Your offer is gratefully accepted. I am still hoping that I may get away this coming weekend. However, that does not mean that an immediate response from Potapov is essential (although it would be ALMOST essential). I do not expect to be incommunicado. Well, I don't _anticipate_ it. I endorse Scott's sentiments on your erudition and so forth. May I also take this opportunity to congratulate you on being somebody whose intellect is matched only by your energy and unfailing good temper. Scott, Are we at risk of thinking that our conclusions - favourable or unfavourable - will matter very much to Potapov? Jed, Yes. Yes, but let's do the best job possible under these unattractive circumstances. I agree that if this test in unsuccessful, we really will have to draw a line under the confounded machine. Oh, and publish our findings. Quite. Absolutely. I reckon I can out-understate most people, but this could be a challenge. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 18:42:04 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA07850 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 18:41:56 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA07807 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 18:41:44 -0700 Received: from d204.aa.net (d204.aa.net [204.157.220.204]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA21545 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 18:41:28 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 18:41:28 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508160141.SAA21545 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: Hydrosonic and CF Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To All, Ron's comments on Schwinger's work and the feasiblity of cold fusion by means of cavitation in deuterated water promted me to go back, and reread the article in IE by Schwinger, and also read the article presented to ICCF5 by Bill Page. I would encourage everyone who hasn't read this stuff to do so. It's quite fascinating and almost understandable to me. Bill Page's article can be found on John Logajan's Web page. The article by Schwinger is also electronically available through Logajan's page by a link to IE magazine's Web page. Like I said, there was quite alot of stuff that I didn't understand, but what little of it I did, made me form some observations. If these observations are incorrect I'd be most greatful for some clarification. After reading Ron's post to this group on "the numbers", and reading Bill's article, my first observation was that it was something of a miracle in itself that these gentlemen were electronically "hanging out" with a bunch of second rate plumbers and boat mechanics:-) I would just like to say that we all appreciate your being here, and sharing with us your insights into these phenomena. The second observation is that you and some of the other members of the group are scientists that work in labs. As such, you have a history of taking things out of Nature, breaking them down into their smallest components and putting them back together again, sometimes the way they were and sometimes in a rearranged fashion. You work with the purest of materials in the cleanest of environments, and take your measurements with the highest quality of instrumentation. You make your observations, formulate your theories, back them up with mathematics, and if you can perform an experiment a thousand times with a reliable expectation of the outcome, you call your theory a Law. This is good scientific methodology that has enabled mankind to understand and make good use of natural processes. Unfortunately this is a very painstaking, time consuming, and expensive endeavor. It also requires first that the scientist have the native capability to understand the natural processes involved, and second that he spend many years training himself in mathematics, physics, and chemistry so that he can communicate his observations in the proper manner. So great is the amount of time, effort, and expense invested in the educating of a good scientist before he is even considered worthy of entering a laboratory equipped with the kind of materials and instruments necessary to do good science that I sometimes pause in awe. The study of cavitational phenomena has, since its' discovery in the last 100 years, been been pursued by only a small number of real scientists under laboratory conditions. The rest of the work has been done by people with a lesser amount of training and equipment, and sometimes with the wrong motivations. Schaefer, Griggs, Potopov, and myself have been working with materials that are commonly found in Nature, and as such, are full of impurities. Nature is dirty, and I think that sometimes scientists in laboratories forget that fact when reading the reports of researchers in the field. Schwinger proposed using the Sonoluminescence devices as a good model for the laboratory study of cavitational phenomena, and I think he was right in this. From a practical standpoint, the configurations and equipment necessary to induce SL are small, inexpensive, and safe to work with. They also provide a more elegant means of studying the effects of sound in liquids. There are no pumps or plumbing, no complicated structures such as are found in the devices made by the people mentioned above, and the modelling of the bubble formation and collapse can be much more easily verified and reproduced. This ease of operation, and smaller number of variables make the SL configurations a better choice for experimentation in a lab setting. Experimentation with different liquid and gas combinations, different frequencies and amplitudes, different shapes of the tank structure and materials of construction, all would yield results that would be much more helpful in understanding the fundamental nature of the cavitational phenomena than complicated rotary devices. Things like input power measurement, gas emissions, heat output measurement, tank pressure, nuclear and chemical reactions, can be studied on a small scale by many labs, and the results combined to give the total picture. Also since there is no "device" as such, just a tank, a signal generator, and some transducers, much of the study can be done without the contamination of the whole intellectual property and venture businesses. Pure science done by highly trained scientists with pure materials in an environment that is free from contaminations coming from nature and the business world. It would be a refreshing break from some of the things I've seen lately. Maybe Schwinger pointed us in this direction for more than scientific reasons. -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 15 22:14:56 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA15227 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 22:14:54 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA15219 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 1995 22:14:50 -0700 Received: from net-1-152.eden.com (net-1-152.eden.com [199.171.21.152]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id AAA22664 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 00:14:46 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 00:14:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199508160514.AAA22664 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: sonoluminescence in the lab X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: We have experimented with single bubble sonoluminescence in our lab and have found it rather difficult to observe. The work has been done mostly by Dave Clifton who is somewhat more patient than I am. We followed carefully the procedure outlined in the recent Amateur Scientist article in Scientific American and even purchased the necessary piezo transducers from the supplier listed therein. We did succeed in observing the effect on two or three occasions out of something like 50 attempts. Each attempt involved boiling some distilled water to degas it, sealing the container after boiling, cooling the freshly boiled sealed-up water to room temperature, then opening the container, carefully decanting the degassed water into the spherical flask equipped with piezo transducers, tuning the L-C oscillator to resonate at the audio resonance of the flask, squirting in a small shot of water to create seed bubbles, playing with the signal amplitude, all the while squinting at either the scope display of a piezo microphone signal (the onset of SBSL is characterized by a low amplitude higher-frequency signal that appears superimposed upon the primary drive signal) or the flask itself in a darkened room. On the few occasions that these many parameters were simultaneously within range, we were rewarded with a barely visible blue glowing pinpont in the center of the spherical flask that typically persisted just until we'd turn away to get somebody else's attention. Needless to say, we have temporarily despaired of our hopes to create a stable, efficient SL device to perform energy balance experiments upon. If anyone can provide any assistance with our problems it would be greatly appreciated. We have already made a half-hearted attempt to contact Putterman et al via email and apparently do not have the correct addresses. If this experiment is any example, it is distinctly possible that the Potapov effect is rather difficult to observe as well. - Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 02:59:24 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA17392 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 02:59:22 -0700 Received: from roimar.imar.ro (roimar.imar.ro [193.226.4.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA17202 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 02:58:50 -0700 Received: by roimar (MX V3.1C) id 23664; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 11:32:31 0200 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 11:32:28 0200 From: itimc roimar.imar.ro To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Message-ID: <00994F54.6E978000.23664 roimar> Subject: Audiatur et altera. Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Subject: Audiatur et altera pars. That's: please listen to the opinion of the other (part) Dear Friends, (when I say it, I mean it). I spoke to Potapov at phone Tuesday, 18.05-18.22. He just had arrived back from Moscow where he did experimentation at the concern "Energiya". I told him that we are not contented with the cooperation with him, that he doesn't help and so on.. He answered: "If I help and give you all my know-how data, who guarantees me that somebody wouldn't start the production of my machines in your countries? My invention is not protected there, LEGALLY our relationship is not settled. We do not have any kind of agreement. It exists an international law of the protection of the intellectual property and I will respect it and my partners have also to do so.." He spoke many times about patent law and licensing and told that the rules are the same everywhere. The word LEGAL and its derivatives was the leitmotif of his speech. He wants such an agreement before telling his secrets. He wants protection for his idea, when I blamed him for not sending us the "Yusmar Complete" for Mike Butcher, he alluded to the contract to be settled including explicitly secrecy agreement and commitment to not manufacture the thermogenerator without a license. A complete set is much easier to be reproduced than a Yusmar. His point of view will be presented in an official letter/fax. You have to understand that a secrecy agreement includes the prohibition of communicating the experimental data e.g. in a discussion group like VORTEX. (These ideas and requests are not new, not surprising and doesn't represent a change in attitude. He explained this to me when I was visiting him alone, and he repeated them to Chris and me mainly when we have discussed about his visit in the US and when he gave us partial basic info re. how does the cavitation tube work, just look at the video tape), Other data: Due to his Moscow trip he has seen my translations of Scott's and Gene's experiments only yesterday, has promised to let us know his comments. He emphasized the fact that Scott's pump is so much oversized that it cannot give o/u.' You have to use the smallest pump possible from reasons of economy. (This Yusmar 1/2 story, Scott). In Gene's setup the "small loop doesn't work', details have been promised. He doesn't know Prof. Smirnov in Sankt Petersburg, there is Prof. Azarov with whom he had collaborated in this town. Surprisingly, he told that will try to help Chris. (I think that Chris has real chances of success in collaboration with the Russians, it's a country with a patent and with licenses for the thermogenerators). For the post of today: Scott, thank you for your appreciation; I like to use adequate words.Due to Knuke's comment I was forced to restrict my dictionary somewhat- he has explained that the direct description of some very pleasant and demographically beneficial actions is not permitted in public-, however I have here VOA's "Words and Their Stories" were I can find some genuine Americanisms. By the way, I wonder if the final expression from this book "to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs" has nothing to do with our attitude toward Potapov. You can say what you want, but Potapov is perfectly motivated. You wrote: "WHERE IS DR. POTAPOV'S OWN TEST REPORT ON HIS OWN DEVICE!? Answer: In his safe! Use empathy: how can he describe his own experiments with a scottlitlelian accuracy without displaying the secrets of the device ? You say "there is no solid evidence that any of the "over-unity" water devices are really over-unity". Your opinion Knuke? Griggs? Gene? Jed?. What can be essential : they are cavitation devices and not water devices. If they can work and remain o/u with oil, for example, we have to change our paradigm. An example from the US: CETI's device is patented. It's the most adequate device to decide if o/u exists or not. It was created for scientists like you and vice-versa. Jed, The first and most important thing: washerology is a technical problem not an ethical one. You have to discover it alone, however if you buy the license you become an expert and you can solve the practical problem. You are speaking about the standards of American/British business law, Yuri has a different vision, he is an inventor aiming to protect his intellectual property and trying to get a maximum profit of it. Is he a fraud or a thief by doing so? Paradoxically, he is scared of the potential thiefs of his invention. The consumer has to be protected, the inventor has to be protected. You pay for a Magic Flute, you get one. If you forget that you have to pay for notes and for music lessons the Flute is anything but magic. It was interesting to observe that you and Yuri have used similar words for antagonistic (really?) opinions! About words: "cultural gap" is overused and abused and used sometimes quite in a completely improper mode. It can be a managerial gap, a underdeveloped ......(thank you Knuke!) infrastructure, different ideologies but NOT a cultural gap. Potapov has done a lot for Moldova's culture, real culture You all know that. He can be a rascal, a dishonest seller but this has nothing to do with culture. Cultural gap is type of slogan and because Jed wrote : "Peter, you are not fully aware of the mores and standards of business behavior in the West" I have to tell that I, as consultant, am making trade (of chemicals) with American companies. In one case we had enormous difficulties because the partners have been extremely slow and Fabianic in making decisions and have changed the requirements. Non-typical and very annoying. "Why is so difficult to work together? I asked. "It's the cultural gap, you know! I sincerely don't want to discuss this further, but shall be very happy if this expression adds to the list of offensive words as... and so on. To All! Chris has mentioned my "unfailing good temper"; I don't dare to show this to my wife, she can die from laughing. I have an awfully bad temper and the same is true, statistically for more than the half of the members of this group. Therefore: All what I can do in this Potapov affair is to appeal to a quality of yours which has made your countries great: PRAGMATISM. If we cannot use it we shall begin to rotate in a vicious circle creating the a time consuming... Vortex. Thank you in advance! Sincerely yours, Peter  From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 05:35:44 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA01218 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 05:35:02 -0700 Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA00901 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 05:30:02 -0700 Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id IAA14930; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 08:29:25 -0400 Date: 16 Aug 95 08:26:31 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: When in Rome, do as the Romans do (?) Message-ID: <950816122631_100433.1541_BHG108-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com I'm (of course) not entirely happy with what Peter tells us. Partly that is because we've made all these efforts and investment without being told that we were not being given proper information. I suppose I am being naive in thinking that I look honest! However . . I am willing to make this one last effort, and would like Peter to tell Potapov that I am willing to enter into a secrecy agreement with regard to any proprietary information with which he needs to supply us, solely for the purpose of the St Petersburg tests. I am sure everybody here would agree that a heavily o-u result with such an agreement would be preferable to a negative result without one. With the former, we would be able to move onward, with the latter we would have to drop the whole thing. Further, it _could_ lead to a situation where I might be able to identify apparent o-u as an experimental error. A successful result - or an unsuccessful one - based on Dr Potapov's information would be much more valuable than just floundering about in the dark. I would publish the results here, and in the IE magazine, together with all information as the method employed to make the measurements, without disclosing any proprietary information. That may well be seen as unscientific, but then I never said I was a scientist, did I? Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 05:35:45 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA01231 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 05:35:04 -0700 Received: from roearn (roearn.ici.ro [192.162.16.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA01075 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 05:32:43 -0700 Received: by roearn.ici.ro (MX V3.1C) id 29744; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 13:14:25 +0200 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 13:13:34 +0200 From: ITIM Computers To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Message-ID: <00994F62.8E58BD60.29744 roearn.ici.ro> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Subject: Audiatur et altera pars. That's: please listen to the opinion of the other (part) Dear Friends, (when I say it, I mean it). I spoke to Potapov at phone Tuesday, 18.05-18.22. He just had arrived back from Moscow where he did experimentation at the concern "Energiya". I told him that we are not contented with the cooperation with him, that he doesn't help and so on.. He answered: "If I help and give you all my know-how data, who guarantees me that somebody wouldn't start the production of my machines in your countries? My invention is not protected there, LEGALLY our relationship is not settled. We do not have any kind of agreement. It exists an international law of the protection of the intellectual property and I will respect it and my partners have also to do so.." He spoke many times about patent law and licensing and told that the rules are the same everywhere. The word LEGAL and its derivatives was the leitmotif of his speech. He wants such an agreement before telling his secrets. He wants protection for his idea, when I blamed him for not sending us the "Yusmar Complete" for Mike Butcher, he alluded to the contract to be settled including explicitly secrecy agreement and commitment to not manufacture the thermogenerator without a license. A complete set is much easier to be reproduced than a Yusmar. His point of view will be presented in an official letter/fax. You have to understand that a secrecy agreement includes the prohibition of communicating the experimental data e.g. in a discussion group like VORTEX. (These ideas and requests are not new, not surprising and doesn't represent a change in attitude. He explained this to me when I was visiting him alone, and he repeated them to Chris and me mainly when we have discussed about his visit in the US and when he gave us partial basic info re. how does the cavitation tube work, just look at the video tape), Other data: Due to his Moscow trip he has seen my translations of Scott's and Gene's experiments only yesterday, has promised to let us know his comments. He emphasized the fact that Scott's pump is so much oversized that it cannot give o/u.' You have to use the smallest pump possible from reasons of economy. (This Yusmar 1/2 story, Scott). In Gene's setup the "small loop doesn't work', details have been promised. He doesn't know Prof. Smirnov in Sankt Petersburg, there is Prof. Azarov with whom he had collaborated in this town. Surprisingly, he told that will try to help Chris. (I think that Chris has real chances of success in collaboration with the Russians, it's a country with a patent and with licenses for the thermogenerators). For the post of today: Scott, thank you for your appreciation; I like to use adequate words.Due to Knuke's comment I was forced to restrict my dictionary somewhat- he has explained that the direct description of some very pleasant and demographically beneficial actions is not permitted in public-, however I have here VOA's "Words and Their Stories" were I can find some genuine Americanisms. By the way, I wonder if the final expression from this book "to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs" has nothing to do with our attitude toward Potapov. You can say what you want, but Potapov is perfectly motivated. You wrote: "WHERE IS DR. POTAPOV'S OWN TEST REPORT ON HIS OWN DEVICE!? Answer: In his safe! Use empathy: how can he describe his own experiments with a scottlitlelian accuracy without displaying the secrets of the device ? You say "there is no solid evidence that any of the "over-unity" water devices are really over-unity". Your opinion Knuke? Griggs? Gene? Jed?. What can be essential : they are cavitation devices and not water devices. If they can work and remain o/u with oil, for example, we have to change our paradigm. An example from the US: CETI's device is patented. It's the most adequate device to decide if o/u exists or not. It was created for scientists like you and vice-versa. Jed, The first and most important thing: washerology is a technical problem not an ethical one. You have to discover it alone, however if you buy the license you become an expert and you can solve the practical problem. You are speaking about the standards of American/British business law, Yuri has a different vision, he is an inventor aiming to protect his intellectual property and trying to get a maximum profit of it. Is he a fraud or a thief by doing so? Paradoxically, he is scared of the potential thiefs of his invention. The consumer has to be protected, the inventor has to be protected. You pay for a Magic Flute, you get one. If you forget that you have to pay for notes and for music lessons the Flute is anything but magic. It was interesting to observe that you and Yuri have used similar words for antagonistic (really?) opinions! About words: "cultural gap" is overused and abused and used sometimes quite in a completely improper mode. It can be a managerial gap, a underdeveloped ......(thank you Knuke!) infrastructure, different ideologies but NOT a cultural gap. Potapov has done a lot for Moldova's culture, real culture You all know that. He can be a rascal, a dishonest seller but this has nothing to do with culture. Cultural gap is type of slogan and because Jed wrote : "Peter, you are not fully aware of the mores and standards of business behavior in the West" I have to tell that I, as consultant, am making trade (of chemicals) with American companies. In one case we had enormous difficulties because the partners have been extremely slow and Fabianic in making decisions and have changed the requirements. Non-typical and very annoying. "Why is so difficult to work together? I asked. "It's the cultural gap, you know! I sincerely don't want to discuss this further, but shall be very happy if this expression adds to the list of offensive words as... and so on. To All! Chris has mentioned my "unfailing good temper"; I don't dare to show this to my wife, she can die from laughing. I have an awfully bad temper and the same is true, statistically for more than the half of the members of this group. Therefore: All what I can do in this Potapov affair is to appeal to a quality of yours which has made your countries great: PRAGMATISM. If we cannot use it we shall begin to rotate in a vicious circle creating the most time consuming... Vortex. Thank you in advance! Sincerely yours, Peter  From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 05:47:03 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA03418 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 05:47:01 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA03409 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 05:46:57 -0700 Received: from net-1-155.eden.com (net-1-155.eden.com [199.171.21.155]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id HAA07895 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 07:46:54 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 07:46:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199508161246.HAA07895 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Secrecy agreement X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I would publish the results here, and in the IE magazine, together with >all information as the method employed to make the measurements, >without disclosing any proprietary information. If we have to have a secrecy agreement then this is the way it should be. How about it Peter, can you talk again to Potapov to see if he will accept this? - Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 07:04:39 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA19014 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 07:04:32 -0700 Received: from arl-img-2.compuserve.com (arl-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.7.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA18962 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 07:04:17 -0700 Received: by arl-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id KAA04719; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 10:03:28 -0400 Date: 16 Aug 95 10:01:09 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Subject: proof wanted without strings Message-ID: <950816140108_100060.173_EHK154-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Peter and All, Peter's last posting describing Potapov's attitude to potential plagiarists is typical of most inventors. However, I must point out that any patent which withholds critical information, so that anyone with the necessary knowledge to suit the technology cannot replicate the specified performance, is invalid, and would fail in a court of law. No one with any business experience would pay real money for equipment which cannot be shown to perform as advertised. It is not good enough to show a queue of purchasers - all conmen can do that - what they do not show is authenticated, independent proof of their product's performance. If Potapov is happy with his Asian market, and they stay happy with him, good luck to him, and them. If he wants to conclude a legal agreement with a western consortium for them to produce and sell, or just sell, then he must show complete proof of the product's performance - afraid his word is not good enough - with due respect!! Norman. P.S. My mail collection system has been playing up lately, and I've been losing a proportion of my incoming mail, so if I've seemed to be ignoring some post, please forgive me. I'm trying to correct things with the help of the OZCIS forum people. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 07:45:21 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA26981 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 07:45:18 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA26957 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 07:45:08 -0700 Received: from s1c1p3.aa.net (s1c1p3.aa.net [204.157.220.175]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA29517 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 07:45:04 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 07:45:04 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508161445.HAA29517 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: sonoluminescence in the lab Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott, All things considered, it sounds like the experiment was a success. Did you write up any reports describing the configuration, materials, protocol etc.? -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 07:54:06 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA28748 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 07:54:05 -0700 Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA28733 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 07:53:59 -0700 From: visor globalcom.net Received: from 204.111.1.77 (eb1ppp13.globalcom.net [204.111.1.77]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id KAA04300 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 10:54:43 -0400 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 10:54:43 -0400 Message-Id: <199508161454.KAA04300 head.globalcom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <950816140108_100060.173_EHK154-1 CompuServe.COM> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.scism.sbu.ac.uk/cios/paul/MadScience/ > First International Virtual Conference on Mad Science > IVCMS'96 > > Candidate Papers (3) | Submission Details | Important Dates > Programme Committee | Correspondence > Call for Papers (PostScript - 80618 bytes) > [Picture of Raving Mad Scientist Doing Something Horribly Dangerous] > > At least 814 hapless peasants have had their curiosity get the > better of them and been lured inside the castle, never to be seen > again... > > Theme > > Mad science is a much maligned domain of human knowledge and its > practitioners have for too long been relegated to B-movies and > remote ancestral estates. > > IVCMS provides an international forum for the presentation, > discussion and extension of research into these darkly powerful > pseudosciences and dangerous technologies which fall beyond the > scope of conventional science and good taste. > > The purpose of the conference is to promote a general understanding > of mad topics within the broader scientific community, to encourage > new researchers to dabble with things best left alone, to attract > commercial sponsors to the potential benefits of mad science in the > business world, and to replace the old drooling maniac stereotype of > the mad scientist with a new drooling maniac image which is more > appropriate to the modern era. > > The conference is hosted on the Web to avoid the overheads of > unpredictable atmospheric conditions and revolting peasants. > > 3 candidate delegates are currently in attendance and available to > discuss their papers in the Mad Science Masquerade. > > Correspondence from other mad scientists may also be viewed. > > Focus > > Topics of interest include, but are not limited to: > > * Creating life to satisfy egocentric motives. > * Unleashing entities beyond human control and comprehension. > * Tampering with the life-sustaining forces of the Universe. > * Exceeding the limitations of the human body via grotesque > metamorphoses. > * New applications for old technologies (alchemy, necromancy, > etc.). > * Ill-advised collaboration with alien and/or supernatural > intelligences. > * Life-long devotion to researching the pointless and inane. > * Callous disregard for human experimental subjects. > * Exacting bizarre revenge on contemptuous and derisive peers. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ -------- > > Related Home Pages > > [Image] > > Paul's Home Page. > > [Image] [Image] [Image] > > South Bank University | School of Computing | Research Centre > ------------------------------------------------------------ -------- > Last altered: 09 August 1995 > > schleip sbu.ac.uk From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 08:06:18 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA00882 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 08:06:16 -0700 Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA00869 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 08:06:10 -0700 Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id LAA08910; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 11:05:37 -0400 Date: 16 Aug 95 11:03:49 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Consumer protection law Message-ID: <950816150348_72240.1256_EHB110-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: >INTERNET:VORTEX-L MAIL.ESKIMO.COM Norman Horwood made a vital point about patent law, that I was planning to discuss. Instead, let me say a few things about consumer protection laws. The following will be perfectly obvious to all American and British readers. This is for the benefit of our friends in former communist countries. I would like to spell out some very basic things. This may seem patronizing, but it is not. My method is to go over the fundamental rules one at a time and to state everything as explicitly as I can. Twenty-five years of dealing with Japanese people has taught me the value of this technique. Peter Gluck reports that Potapov said: "If I help and give you all my know-how data, who guarantees me that somebody wouldn't start the production of my machines in your countries? My invention is not protected there, LEGALLY our relationship is not settled. We do not have any kind of agreement. It exists an international law of the protection of the intellectual property and I will respect it and my partners have also to do so.." . . . He spoke many times about patent law and licensing and told that the rules are the same everywhere. The word LEGAL and its derivatives was the leitmotif of his speech. This confirms my suspicion that we are dealing with a gigantic culture gap. (Or with a confirmed con man; I cannot judge.) Peter disagrees, but that is because even he fails to understand what I mean. I would appreciate it very much if Peter would communicate the following to Potapov, in some form. In the U.S. and Europe, when you sell something to a customer, you automatically commit yourself to a LEGAL relationship. You give what is called an "implied warrantee" that the product is fit for the purpose you claim. You you also commit yourself to assist the customer to the best of your ability to make the product work. These customary, implied warrantees always come in force, unless they are specifically canceled by a prior written agreement signed by both parties (as is sometimes done with things like prototype software products). This is true for all commercial transactions. For example, when you casually sell hot roasted chestnuts on the street, even though you give no receipt and no signed contract, if the customer finds a rotten nut he can bring it back and demand a fresh replacement. A street vendor who refuses to replace the product or refund the money would be subject to losing his license. These laws are embodied in both ancient and recent legislation. Ancient laws go back to medieval guilds, which set standards for every profession, and assumed liability if their guild members failed to meet those standards. Modern consumer protection was revitalized by Ralph Nader and others in the 1960s. Nader built upon very old traditions. By every legal and customary standard of Western business, when Potapov accepted our money for his product he automatically assumed a legal obligation to tell us everything we need to know to operate the machine to produce excess heat. That is what he said it would do; that was what he specifically claimed. In the West we would not need a written contract spelling that out. We have advertising, newspaper articles, and a video of him making that claim. I would never, in a million years, bother going to court about this, but if I did in similar circumstances (for a much larger amount of money) the proceedings would be over in 20 minutes. I think it is important that both Peter and Yuri understand these facts about American business ethics. I can tell by Peter's tone that he does *not* fully appreciate them. Some of the discussions here about physics are over my head, but I am pretty sure that in this subject I can hold my own against anyone short of a trained lawyer, and I know far more about it than Yuri does. He thinks he has a right to keep secrets that prevent us from getting excess heat. Perhaps according to Russian law he does, but by our standards his behavior is a gross violation of business ethics and law. What he is doing is like selling a person an automobile and then refusing to hand over the keys. I do not want to imply that everything is perfect here and that no American business ever engages in fraud, or withholds vital information, or sells rotten food and then refuses to replace it. Such things happens all the time! My point is that these practices are illegal. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 10:43:05 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA06650 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 10:42:39 -0700 Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA06591 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 10:42:27 -0700 Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id NAA24604; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 13:41:46 -0400 Date: 16 Aug 95 13:38:33 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Implied warranty Message-ID: <950816173832_100433.1541_BHG87-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:INTERNET:VORTEX-L MAIL.ESKIMO.COM What Jed and Norman says is, of course, correct. We are so familiar with the idea of 'implied warranty' that we couldn't imagine that any other system operated - until we thought about it. It reminds me of my wife's comment on the Falklands conflict. She pointed out what nobody in the UK government ever seemed to understand - that Argentina operates on the S American principle: territory which is within one's reach is one's own. Yes - but so what? Certainly Potapov should move toward understanding us. Certainly we should move towards understanding him. That is fine as an exercise in international cooperation - and completely irrelevant to us in the present. The virtue of the St Petersburg idea is that - assuming a secrecy agreement is mutually acceptable and is allowed to include the whole of the lab at St Pete - is that we get an opportunity to settle the whole issue to our satisfaction. One way or the other. Let's concentrate on that, and worry about all these niceties later. I'm willing to play this "crazy" game to its conclusion, and I appreciate the efforts of "Robert" to make that possible. Others here haven't been to Moldova and seen the machines and met Potapov and Peter Gluck. I have, and that makes me feel that this visit has at least enough prospect of success to make the trip worthwhile. Not that I am fancying it much, as you can imagine. By the way, it now looks as though a combination of pretty-much-expected delays and my own personal arangements means that I'm not likely to be leaving until the first weekend in September. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 12:38:42 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA05082 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 12:38:37 -0700 Received: from karloff.lanl.gov (karloff.lanl.gov [128.165.16.190]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA05041 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 12:38:28 -0700 Message-Id: <199508161938.MAA05041 mail.eskimo.com> Received: by karloff.lanl.gov (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA106351945; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 13:39:05 -0600 From: Ron McFee Subject: Re: YUSMAR Patents To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 13:39:04 MDT Cc: mcfee lanl.gov In-Reply-To: <199508161445.HAA29517 big.aa.net>; from "Michael T. Huffman" at Aug 16, 95 7:45 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I posted this yesterday. I don't think that it went through. Sorry if you get multiple copies. I have changed a few typos. I see from todays postings that we have hit a sensitive nerve. I think it is time for Yuri to broaden his business base and come to the United States for some serious discussions and to claim his rightful property. Greetings Vortexans and Vortejanos! The last two days on this net have been most encouraging. The news from Peter is most interesting. The business practices of Yuri Semionovich while bizarre and seemingly irrational by our Western standards are somewhat believable considering what I have heard of the Former Soviet Union. Hopefully they will pass through this phase into a state more common to our own practices. Since no one has located any copies of Dr. Potapov's patents, it is probable that what he considers a "patent" and "license" is somewhat different than our own. "Trade secret" and "non-disclosure agreement partnership" might be closer to to what he means. I hope that Robert can offer Yuri some good advice on doing business in the US. By the way, the United States of American is now the third largest county on Earth, as well as the richest with the largest economy, and US patents are vigorously protected by the US Government both locally in our courts and internationally in our trade agreements. I am glad to learn that he plans to visit the US next month. He probably should have done this several months ago. He should move as rapidly as possible to obtain US patent protection for his inventions. When he understands what this means and what business advantages it gives, I am sure he will be elated. I hope that someone can recommend some good (more than one) patent attorneys. Being a US Department of Energy contractor I have not been too concerned with patent law and can't recommend any good lawyers. However I have read a couple of books on the subject. A US patent requires full disclosure. No secrets allowed. Trade secrets are not protected and can be stolen by anyone who can steal or rediscover them. Indeed someone else could patent them. Since Yuri's inventions are quite controversial he will probably be required to have a "working model." He had better bring one with him, or plan on cooperating with Gene Mallove and/or Scott Little in producing one. He can protect his inventions with "non-disclosure agreements" with new partners or "licensees" until he has patent protection. Chris, unfortunately we have come down to Robert's "spy vs spy." It will be to Yuri's advantage if you can determine if the Yusmar really does produce anomalous energy. Like nuclear weapons before 1945, the big secret of the Yusmar is not how it works, but if it works. Once this is determined one can either steal the secrets like Stalin did our bomb designs, or rediscover them like the French after great effort. While the parameter space is probably very narrow to make this device work, it is probably broad enough to accommodate more than one solution. Yuri Semionovich, the Cold War is over. Welcome to the US. Regards, Ron From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 13:04:48 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA11620 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 13:04:41 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA11531 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 13:04:19 -0700 Received: from net-1-213.eden.com (net-1-213.eden.com [199.171.21.213]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id PAA26215 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 15:04:12 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 15:04:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199508162004.PAA26215 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: sonoluminescence in the lab X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Knuke said: >Scott, >Did you write up any reports describing the configuration, materials, >protocol etc.? Nope...not yet at least. All we did was what they said to do in the Scientific American article. What I wanted was a setup that would always produce the effect so I could do some calorimetry on it. Who knows, we may keep trying but, for now, other things are in front of it. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 13:55:31 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA23872 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 13:55:26 -0700 Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA23803 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 13:55:13 -0700 Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA24592; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 16:54:35 -0400 Date: 16 Aug 95 16:52:50 EDT From: Dean Miller <75110.3417 compuserve.com> To: Chris Tinsley Subject: Implied warranty Message-ID: <950816205250_75110.3417_CHK69-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Chris and the gang, >> The virtue of the St Petersburg idea is that - assuming a secrecy agreement is mutually acceptable and is allowed to include the whole of the lab at St Pete - is that we get an opportunity to settle the whole issue to our satisfaction. One way or the other. << Seems to me that if Yuri's test results are 'in his safe,' why would any security agreement allow you to reveal the test results of the St. Petersburg visit to the Vortex list members? .Dean - from Des Moines From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 15:19:34 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA13215 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 15:19:29 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA13195 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 15:19:22 -0700 Received: from s1c1p5.aa.net (s1c1p5.aa.net [204.157.220.177]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA28766 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 15:19:22 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 15:19:22 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508162219.PAA28766 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: sonoluminescence in the lab Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott, Have you looked at Prevelensik's work? Have you heard anything from that group at U. 'o Houston? -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 16:40:51 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA00385 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 16:40:48 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA00358 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 16:40:41 -0700 Received: from net-1-169.eden.com (net-1-169.eden.com [199.171.21.169]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id SAA24968 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 18:40:36 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 18:40:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199508162340.SAA24968 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: sonoluminescence in the lab X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Knuke writes: > Have you looked at Prevelensik's work? not familiar with this person >Have you heard anything from that >group at U. 'o Houston? No. I have only tried email but I wrote a pretty enticing come on. No reponse at all... Perhaps they can tell we're from the phringe-physics community and are ignoring us. 8-) Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 16 16:50:24 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA02291 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 16:50:08 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA02201 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 16:49:43 -0700 Received: from net-1-169.eden.com (net-1-169.eden.com [199.171.21.169]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id SAA26155 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 18:49:32 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 18:49:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199508162349.SAA26155 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: Implied warranty X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dean of Des Moines writes: >Seems to me that if Yuri's test results are 'in his safe,' why would any >security agreement allow you to reveal the test results of the St. >Petersburg visit to the Vortex list members? Yeah..and this worries me a great deal. In this case I can think of only one reason why he'd want to conceal the results from the St. Pete tests: he's worried that they might come out negative and then be widely publicized. Chris, if it does come down to that (heaven forbid)...and you still end up going there to do the tests (say 100 strong men drag you all the way!), you could simply tell us afterwards, for example, whether or not you were still interested in cavitation...and leave us to guess the outcome of the tests. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 2 23:11:44 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA26451 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 2 Aug 1995 23:11:42 -0700 Received: from arl-img-2.compuserve.com (arl-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.7.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA26433 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 1995 23:11:34 -0700 Received: by arl-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id CAA04003; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 02:11:00 -0400 Date: 03 Aug 95 02:09:04 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Thanks and comments Message-ID: <950803060904_100433.1541_BHG62-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Thanks for all the advice. I just had a bit of a minor disaster on the computer front, but I'm now back on-line. Yes, this is a diverse and talented group. I did notice a reference to a "Normal Horwood", who perhaps is closely related to Norman. On the matter of possible o-u, I do appreciate how nearly everybody is feeling, and I note some levity with regard to Russians. Well, I've only been to "Russia" once - and it wasn't really Russia. The Russians I dealt with were very likeable people in general, although some aspects of life there did make me want to bang my head on the wall in frustration. Also, it happens that I don't think they are daft enough to spend all that money on cavitation devices and come back for more if they don't work. Specifically I'm talking about the Orthodox clergy I had a fair amount of time with. The young parish priest with no money and a basilica to heat was especially persuasive. I have some reservations about the machine and about Potapov's company - who wouldn't, after all this hassle? But I'm going to see an 'as sold' system, and I'll make the best report I can. I do have mixed feelings about visiting so big a city in a country which is undergoing such difficulties, I admit. Let's see, eh? I think if the machine can't be made to perform, then whatever its possible value, we can't pursue it further, we have to write it off because we at least cannot see it working; and enough time and money has gone into it already. But to write it off now is, I believe, premature. If I did not think so, I certainly wouldn't be willing to go look see. Again, thanks for all the advice. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 3 07:52:37 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA16354 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 07:52:25 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA16313 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 07:52:12 -0700 Received: from s1c1p6.aa.net (s1c1p6.aa.net [204.157.220.178]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA04816 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 07:52:05 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 07:52:05 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508031452.HAA04816 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Research Project Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To All, I was reading the sci.mech.fluids newgroup the other day, when I came across this post. I wrote a letter to these people informing them of the existence of the Vortex group, but have yet to receive a response. I thought that maybe one of you might be interested in contacting them as well. Scott, since you are in this neighborhood, and are waiting for word from the East, you might walk across the street, and see what they are up to. -Knuke Path: big.aa.net!ratty.wolfe.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.uh .edu!Rosie.UH.EDU!MECE23G From: mece23g Rosie.UH.EDU Newsgroups: sci.mech.fluids Subject: Research Positions Available for Applied Fluid Mechanics Projects Date: 23 Jul 1995 15:48:02 GMT Organization: University of Houston Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3utqvi$fjs masala.cc.uh.edu> Reply-To: mece23g Rosie.UH.EDU NNTP-Posting-Host: rosie.uh.edu Status: N We are seeking undergraduate/graduate students for: ------------------------------- GRADUATE RESEARCH leading to M.S./Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering. Requirements: (i) U.S. citizenship, and (ii) B.S. degree in Engineering/ Physics/Mathematics. The project involves experimental and numerical research on developing vortex engines (LIQUD PISTON ENGINE) and propulsion devices (ALUMINUM BURNING THRUSTERS). Please feel free to contact the me for further details, application material or a brief summary of our current research (e-mail is preferred): Satish Narayanan (713)743-4581 [email:MECE23G@JETSON.UH.EDU] Aerodynamics & Turbulence Laboratory Department of Mechanical Engineering University of Houston Houston, TX 77204-4792 Thank you for your attention. Note: Applicants must be a U.S. national/citizen. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 4 19:38:14 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA12594 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 19:38:07 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA12575 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 19:37:59 -0700 Received: from s1c0p2.aa.net (s1c0p2.aa.net [204.157.220.166]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA07874 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 19:37:15 -0700 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 19:37:15 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508050237.TAA07874 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Details Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To All, I mentioned before that certain memories of past experiences raised some disturbing questions. There was a Romanian guy that worked on the Polar Bear for a few years named Vladimir. Everybody, at his request, called him Val. Val was a pretty tough bird that had seen some hard times, but survived them with an outlook that would impress The Saints. He always had a smile and a warm greeting, and he often had to work 60-70 hours without sleep and he did it without the slightest hint of a complaint. He always worked smart and fast, and even though you could see the bonecrushing fatigue in his eyes, he always had that smile and some wisecrack that would make everybody laugh. He was eager to learn all the different phases of the boat operation, and he was a quick study. He was also one of the nicest people you could ever hope to meet. He told me that he had attempted an escape from Romania by lashing two logs together, and floating down a river during the night. He got picked up by the border guards in a skiff, and he saw that they had night vision goggles. They sent him to prison for eighteen months. The prison tattooed a number on his wrist. When he got out of prison, he lashed two more logs together, and floated down the same river again. This time he timed it just right, so that he floated across the border when the guards were changing shifts. He made it. He got asylum in Austria, and then worked in Munich for a bit before coming to America. He loved America, his freedom, and he loved Alaska. In his second year up North, he made $60,000 processing fish. He wasn't a very big guy, but he walked tall and straight like a real cowboy. He was a real cowboy! I loved the guy. He was great to work with, and he was great fun to party with too. One day the skipper got word that a Korean freighter was going to be passing within a few miles of the river in which we were working, and was looking to take fish. We were anchored up about 15 miles up river. The processing crew had been working for about 20 hours, and were just finishing up a load of about 40,000lbs. of fish. They were putting the last of it into the quick freezer. The main cargo freezer hold had about 250,000lbs. of frozen fish in it already which was about all that we could carry. We were anchored so far up the river and we were so loaded down that we could only get out to sea at high tide, but the tide had been coming in for about 5 hours so we were in perfect shape to get under way. The skipper reckoned that we could take off as soon as the processors were finished putting the last of the fish in the quick freeze. The processors could get a couple of hours sleep while we made our way out to sea. It would take the processors about 12 hours for them to offload the fish in the cargo hold, and another 6 hours to box up, weigh, and offload the fish that was in the quickfreeze. We had another 40,000lbs. on deck waiting to be processed, so they would have to process that while we were underway going back into the river. It was going to be a long, hard shift, and that two hours of sleep was vital. When the skipper gave the nod, I fired up the main engines, and the deckhand pulled the anchor. It was about 20 minutes before high tide, so the timing was perfect. When the deckhand got the anchor out of the water, however, it was fouled on the chain, and it wouldn't come up tight to the ship. There was about a 2 foot chop in the water, which meant that the anchor would be banging on the bow of the boat the whole trip. The processing crew slept mostly up in the bow, and some of the more sensitive members of the crew had been known to complain about the constant banging of the anchor right next to their heads. The skipper told me to grab somebody, jump in the skiff, and unfoul the anchor. Usually when the anchor fouled, it was because we had picked up a rock or some loose fishnetting. A couple of good whacks with a big sledgehammer would free it up. It normally didn't take but about 10 minutes to do. Our usual skiff driver was not on the boat, and that left me and the skipper as the only people that knew how to operate the skiff. I figured now was as good a time as any to train one of the other crewmembers. I immediately thought of Val, and gave him a holler. The skipper held our position with the main engines. I grabbed my biggest sledgehammer, a four foot long crowbar, a hacksaw, and I jumped into the skiff with Val. As we motored around to the bow of the boat, I showed him how to work the throttle, steer, and shift from forward to reverse. Like I said, the water had a two foot chop in it which made things a bit more difficult, but Val seemed to be getting the hang of things pretty quickly, so we proceeded. When we got around to the bow, it appeared that the anchor had picked up some fishnetting. I told Val to position the skiff so that no part of the anchor was directly over the skiff. I told him that when I hit the anchor, it would break loose and drop like a ton of bricks about six feet, and if we were under it, the weight of the anchor would take us down in a heartbeat. Since it was a 3000lbs. anchor, it was more like a ton and a half of bricks, but I didn't think I needed to explain that to him. He nodded his head, and so I stood up in the bow of the skiff, and took my best swing with the sledge. Just as the hammerhead made contact, Val gave the skiff motor some more throttle, and sent the bow of the skiff (with yours truly in it) directly under the anchor. I closed my eyes, and could actually feel the shadow of the thing pass over me. I was certain that the full weight of the anchor was following right behind, but the anchor didn't drop. I opened my eyes to see Val at the throttle... smiling. I very calmly explained the whole thing again to him, he nodded, and got us back into position. I took another mighty swing at it, and he did the exact same thing again. When I opened my eyes this time, it was to see Val at the throttle with a sheepish grin on his face, and he was giving me this little shrug like he was saying "Sooorrry". Sorry???!!! I jumped up and down, waved my arms around, hollered and screamed, and generally made a real spectacle of myself. The bears on shore even headed for the hills. I was so mad and so scared that if it had been anybody else besides Val, I would have sledgehammered him right through the hull of the skiff and followed him right down to the bottom of the river just to make sure that he never, ever did that again. Val quit smiling, and got a kind of hurt look in his eye. Two things dawned on me then and there. Firstly: Nice Guys Can Kill You Equally as Dead as Bad Guys Can Huffman's 3rd Law Secondly, since we were both still alive, and the anchor hadn't dropped, it must be fouled up with something alot stronger than fishnetting. Since I felt like I had already died twice in the last ten minutes, I proceeded to climb out of the skiff and up onto the anchor itself, and started feeling around in the netting with my hands. I discovered a length of half inch thick, steel cable was in there too. It was all knotted up in the anchor chain, and was a real mess. I could hear the skipper yelling over the loudspeaker to hurry it up. If we missed the high tide, we wouldn't make it out of the river for another twelve hours. Since both the freezers were full, the fish on deck would go bad, and this little training exercise idea would cost the Polar Bear around $120,000. Val handed me the hacksaw, and I sawed three quarters of the way through the steel cable in two spots where it was knotted in the chain. Then I traced the cable to where it was wrapped around the bottom of the anchor. I jumped back into the skiff (which Val positioned directly under the anchor again), and I sawed on this part of the cable until I got The Fear. Then I ran back to the stern of the skiff, took the throttle from Val, and backed the skiff away from the anchor. I hollered up to the deckhand to freewheel the anchor. He let the anchor drop until it hit the bottom which broke the half inch cable, and then raised it back up. The anchor came out of the water free and clean, and it cinched up tight against the bow with a big clank. The skipper gunned the engines of the Polar Bear, and Val and I motored around to tie up the skiff to the port side. The skipper slowed down just long enough for us to get back onto the Bear, and we proceeded to rocket out of that river as fast as we could. We had lost about 45 minutes total, but we managed to make it out of the river without running aground anyway. It worked. After all the dust had settled, I could see that Val still had that hurt look in his eye. I told him that I was sorry for being so hard on him, and that it wasn't really his fault that things got so fouled up. I told him that we had pulled a big rabbit out of the hat that day, and that he should actually be proud of himself. Of course, I was secretly vowing to myself at the same time never to let him drive me around in a skiff again, but I didn't let him know that. Slowly the smile came back to his face, and everything was OK. The point of this whole thing is that I have a tendency to be pretty hard on people sometimes. I think part of the reason is because the people that showed me the ropes were pretty hard on me at the time. I understood it and tolerated it because I knew that they had learned all of their lessons the hard way, and cared enough about me to make sure that I didn't make the same mistakes. I knew that when they raised their voices, I'd better listen up good and learn from whatever it was that they were screaming in my direction. Their constant attention to the details of my work kept me from losing my limbs or my life. A small amount of embarassment was a small price to pay. The questions that arose that disturbed me after rereading some of these posts are these. First of all, to Gene, I noticed in the description of your closed loop system there was no mention of any pressure relief valves. Please tell me that you are not running that thing at those pressures and at 90 degrees C without some sort of provision for letting off steam. This has been bothering me for some time. I'd also like to know if you ever got those reports that I sent you in the snail mail. To the rest of the people who have spent time and money on the Yusmar, I've been keeping a rough, running total of the amounts of time and money spent by the various groups, and I'm estimating that the figure stands around $100,000 if you include the upcoming Tinsley expedition and purchase, and you figure the labor costs at the US minimum wage. Now I see offers from visor to get the patent text for the researchers so that they can translate it and read it. Does this mean that all you guys have gone to all this trouble, and you haven't read the patent yet? Do you even know for sure that there is a patent to read? I'm not trying to embarass anybody here, I'd just like to know what the reasoning was for this. Considering the alternative of a future powered with fossil fuels and nuclear reactors, it could be rationalized that time is of the essence, but don't you guys research things like the patent before you blow the bucks? When ENECO wanted me to build them a prototype of my machine, I practically had to give them my dental X-rays before they would release a dime to me. Please tell me that you've read the patent. -Knuke "Peace and Love" From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 4 20:19:48 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA18198 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 20:19:46 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA18191 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 20:19:41 -0700 Received: from net-1-151.eden.com (net-1-151.eden.com [199.171.21.151]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id WAA04773 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 22:19:34 -0500 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 22:19:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199508050319.WAA04773 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: stories and patents X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Knuke, you tell a good story! I have heard claims (presumably from VIZOR) that the thing IS patented, but I have not heard of anyone actually finding any patents on it. I searched US Patents (for "Potapov") at the patent repository on the UT campus and came up with no Yuri S. Potapovs. I believe Robert of Visor is has searched Russian patents also with no results. Has anyone else actually seen a patent on the Yusmar? - Scott Little, EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 18:16:02 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA20279 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 12 Aug 1995 18:16:01 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA20268 for ; Sat, 12 Aug 1995 18:15:56 -0700 Received: from s1c1p3.aa.net (s1c1p3.aa.net [204.157.220.175]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA13917 for ; Sat, 12 Aug 1995 18:15:51 -0700 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 18:15:51 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508130115.SAA13917 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: My heart sinks, it really does. Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Michael, > > >> This makes me think that it is possibly not steam at all, but > >> partially steam with decomposed hydrgen and oxygen gases mixed in. > >If your right then stand well back behind a blast wall, cos there is a big bomb >waiting to 'splode!!! > >Unless the recomb. happens within a micro-structured catalyst at a safe speed, >probably what is happening in some of the Ni or Pd electrodes in other >versions, then the mixture, which might be stoichometric, is very unstable. > >Norman. Norman, What you are saying is true I think for large quantities of hydrogen mixed with air. This mixture would be unstable and highly explosive. According to my reference, pure hydrogen burns quite calmly in air if burned with a blowpipe burner. It cautions that the handling of the material must be done with care. It doesn't give the proper procedure for igniting a blowpipe burner, but I would think that holding a lit match over the hole, and very slowly opening the valve would do the trick. I would think that there would be a loud pop, and then the gas would burn very evenly thereafter. However what I am postulating is that when the gas bubble collapses, only a very small amount of water is being decomposed. Perhaps on the order of only one or two molecules per bubble. Under this condition, the "'splosion" would naturally be very local, and the energy released would be easily absorbed by the surrounding liquid, and the explosion would be almost immediately extinguished. Since hydrogen burns with a very pale, almost invisible blue flame, and all of the reports of "blue steam" and a pulsating Sonoluminescence have been made, this would tend to support this hypothesis. There are other chemical reactions that could be occurring as well. Hydrogen "burns" in the presence of chlorine gas. Chlorine is present in almost all drinking water supplies around the world, and the gas is constantly being released. In this case, hydrochloric acid gas emissions would need to be tested for. Nascent oxygen is also a byproduct of mixing chlorine with water. Nascent oxygen is very active, and will not rest until it is combined either with another atom of its' own kind or with another substance. Since a certain amount of static electricity is also reported to be present in the operation of these devices, Ozone could be forming and decomposing as well. Other chemicals are also present. The noble gases have always been considered to be inert, and unable to combine with any other element, but in the not too distant past, xenon was forced to combine, I believe, with tetrafluoride to produce a stable gas. Fluorine is also one of the things that has been added to drinking water supplies in some countries. As I said in an earlier post, there are a number of different forms of carbon present in these systems as well. With the number of different possible chemical reactions being so large, I tend to think that we haven't really given this area a proper look. The hypothesis presented by Schwinger via Ron McFee is certainly a viable one, but I wonder which of the hypotheses is more probable? For example, has Ron or did Dr. Schwinger calculate what the minimum temperature/pressure condition would be for the p+D reaction to occur? What would the minimum temperature/pressure conditions necessarily have to be for these stoichiometric scenarios? It seems that the lower the temperature/pressure prerequisite, the more probable it is that the heat is being generated by that method. It could also be postulated that a chemical burning of one sort or another is happening first, and then supplying the necessary local heat to induce a p+D nuclear fusion reaction. This would be would be a combination of events that could lead to fusion, albeit, in a haphazard fashion. It would also be considered "cold fusion" only because of the scales involved. Does anyone have the temp-press numbers for these above mentioned scenarios? My references are too general. -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Aug 12 19:09:58 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA25759 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 12 Aug 1995 19:09:54 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA25741 for ; Sat, 12 Aug 1995 19:09:46 -0700 Received: from s2c0p4.aa.net (s2c0p4.aa.net [204.157.220.68]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA16651 for ; Sat, 12 Aug 1995 19:09:44 -0700 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 19:09:44 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508130209.TAA16651 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: Besch Report Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill Beaty writes: >Torque helping effect? Very interesting. Yeah, this is kind of the same wording that I used to get my patent through the PTO. There is a pretty good argument that the layer of steam surrounding the rotor would be responsible for the friction being reduced and the amperage doing the same, but there is nothing to explain the kind of power that I saw coming from my device. Since I steadfastly refuse to believe in "overunity" for its' own sake, I have to look at the possiblities of a fuel being burned at one level or another. > > >> H. Because of the cone design of the apparatus, "vortex" effects should >> be proposed and researched, especially on the "cones and fins" model. > > >So this device is a combo of physical turbine and vortex flow device? Possibly, I haven't seen any of the designs made by Price. My dad is in the process of tracking down his new number. He talked to him about six weeks ago I think, but when he tried to call a couple of weeks ago, Price's line was disconnected. Price told my dad that he still had all the drawings of every machine that he had ever built, and it sure would be interesting to get a look at them. The physical description given in the Besch report is pretty vague. The Carpenter and Zumwalt reports were slightly better in this regard, but still not what I would have liked to have seen. The ENECO and Emprise reports didn't didn't even bother with it. I think Scott did the best job of reporting the configuration and physical description in his report on the Yusmar. In an ideal report, I would like a text based description that is as detailed as a patent, with the addition of drawings, photos, and maybe even an audible record or video. In this day and age, all of that is possible, and possible to transmit via the I-net. It's just a matter of money and equipment. I think that we've come a long way from these "typerwriter written" reports of the '70's and '80's, and with the ease of I-net communication, the quality and the speed of research has already been greatly enhanced. -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 00:15:39 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA22049 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:15:20 -0700 Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA22041 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:15:13 -0700 Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id DAA27786; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 03:14:37 -0400 Date: 17 Aug 95 03:11:18 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Subject: I'm getting hotter Message-ID: <950817071118_100060.173_EHK120-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Re Scott's last suggestion, for Chris to report to us in code - this is getting more and more farsical by the day. It looks as though we have a "Stan Meyer" type situation all over again. His stuff still fails to work even after the crucial (I nearly said "private") parts have been sent back to him for tweaking. I am firmly of the opinion that no further money should be spent on this project until Poppycock delivers a fully working system to one of us and it is shown to be seriously ou by our tests. Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 01:25:48 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA01632 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 01:25:36 -0700 Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA01616 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 01:25:31 -0700 Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id EAA15145; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 04:24:56 -0400 Date: 17 Aug 95 04:21:12 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Stuff and nonsense Message-ID: <950817082112_100433.1541_BHG114-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Scott, Norman, If you look at what Peter said, it was that Potapov was willing to assist with the St Pete tests. It was ME that offered to assist that process by making a secrecy agreement. If there was any silliness about not publishing, I wouldn't sign - I would rather take the chance of seeing whether these Russian scientists can get the machine going without any help, or maybe THEY could talk to Potapov about bloody 'washers' while I stick my fingers in my ear. Or stick them elsewhere. Upsetting as all this has been, I think it is necessary to retain some element of objectivity. It is no good saying, "What if Potapov does this?" and then responding by saying, "Oh, because he HAS done that (when he hasn't) then we should not spend any money on going to St Pete, we should demand that he sends us a complete machine, free, with no strings attached. Which we know he won't do anyway." The comparison with Meyer is glib but inappropriate. Meyer is a religious nut, he has an - ahem - 'uncertain' temper, he has no commercial track record, he is a one-man band (sorry, he has one employee). Potapov has a thriving business, he supports local cultural artists and opera singers, he gives away machines to people who can't afford them - like Orthodox clergy. Where are Meyer's factories? Where are Meyer's satisfied customers banging on his door to buy new machines because they like the old ones so much? I repeat, it is simply no good to say that A might be B, therefore he is B, therefore he is the same kind of person as C, therefore we should abandon the whole enterprise into which we have sunk a lot of money instead of funding one short trip abroad. Obviously, my initial view - that the presence of a satisfied customer base for central heating systems validates the product - is now on hold. That does not mean, however, that I have abandoned it. Yet. I for one am satisfied that Jed and Gene's tests show that (often) the Griggs device goes o-u. I am impressed by previous reports of the Schaeffer machine, and can see that the marketing policy of those who promoted it at the time was doomed to failure (with 20:20 hindsight). I am also aware that the physics of bubbles in water is (haha) "imperfectly understood". That's enough for me to go (admittedly with strong reservations and my teeth clenched) to do this trip. And there'll be no damned coded messages afterwards, either. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 04:30:21 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA18982 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 04:29:48 -0700 Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA18968 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 04:29:41 -0700 Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id HAA01043; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 07:29:09 -0400 Date: 17 Aug 95 07:24:11 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: More light relief Message-ID: <950817112411_100433.1541_BHG66-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Dear All, I would commend to this august forum the perusal of a new compendium ("They Got It Wrong: The Guinness Dictionary of Regrettable Quotations", David Milsted, to be published in September). Even the meanest intellect (mine) has been able to discern the meaning of the acronym ROFL, as meaning "Roll On the Floor Laughing" and that about sums up this book, as described by the author in his fine article (New Scientist, 19 Aug, pp49-50). It is clear from the style of the article that, like me, Mr Milsted is a connoisseur of human folly. Unlike me, he has a happy and poisonous wit. Apparently, one fifth of the book is devoted to the great efforts of scientists and engineers, who have made such an extraordinary contribution to this significant field of human activity. Milsted does quote a couple of non-scientists in this article.... Last words of Gen Sedgwick (1864): "Nonsense, man! They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..." Joseph Stalin: "Gaiety is the outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." ... but here are a few of his science quotes: Kelvin: "X-rays will prove to be a hoax" ; "radio has no future" ; (to the Niagara Falls Power Company) "Trust you will avoid gigantic mistake of adoption of alternating current." Head of (Brit) Post Office (on Edison): "subdivision of the electric light is an absolute ignis fatuus." Edison (on Tesla): "There is no plea which will justify the use of high tension and alternating current .... They are as unnecessary as they are dangerous." Edison (on women): "direct thought is not an attribute of femininity." Ernst Mach: "I can accept the theory of relativity as little as I can accept the existence of atoms and other dogma." Richie Calder (1932) "That is how the atom is split, but what does it mean? To us who think in terms of practical use it means nothing!" Einstein: "There is not the slightest possibility that energy will ever be obtainable from the atom." Edison (1895): "It is apparent to me that the possibilities of the aeroplane have been exhausted." Newcomb (discoverer of Neptune): "Aerial flight is one of that class of problems which men will never have to cope." Richard van der Riet Woolley, Atronomer Royal (1956)(!) "Space travel is utter bilge." Prof A W Bickerton: "The weight of fuel needed to lift a rocket through the atmosphere could never be carried into space." [Er ... how's that again?] Francisco Sizzi, astronomer, 1610: "Jupiter's moons are invisible to the naked eye and can have no influence on the earth, and therefore would be useless, and therefore do not exist." Happily, one can quote a book of quotations without fear of infringing copyright. But I will quote, with utter glee, the final paragraph of the article: "Sizzi, surely, is the kind of scientist the British biologist Thomas Huxley had in mind when he wrote: "Next to being right in this world, the best of all things is to be clearly and definitely wrong." Denigrators of cold fusion may do well to note these comforting words." Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 05:38:01 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA26554 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 05:37:52 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA26536 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 05:37:46 -0700 Received: from net-1-144.eden.com (net-1-144.eden.com [199.171.21.144]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id HAA14562 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 07:37:42 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 07:37:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199508171237.HAA14562 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: Stuff and nonsense X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris said: >If you look at what Peter said, it was that Potapov was willing to >assist with the St Pete tests. It was ME that offered to assist that >process by making a secrecy agreement. Thanks for bringing us back to Earth, Chris. Yes, let's make the most out of this offer from Potapov. If he's willing to assist you in St. Pete and that results in your confirming the reported O-U performance, we've got ourselves a whole new ballgame here! Let's focus on getting to that point as smoothly and quickly as practical. 1. Do you need anything else, Chris? 2. How can we "firm up" Potapov's commitment to assisting in St. Pete? - Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 10:27:25 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA15552 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 10:02:17 -0700 Received: from GAV.GAT.COM (GAV.GAT.COM [192.5.166.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA15343 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 10:01:17 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: <199508171701.KAA15343 mail.eskimo.com> Received: from [198.133.146.230] by 198.133.146.230 with SMTP; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 10:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 10:01:16 -0800 To: Vortex-L mail.eskimo.com Subject: Calorimetry in Tents Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris, Tent calorimetry of a complete Yusmar system is a good idea. However, doing calorimetry in air is a little different from doing it in a container of water. I've had some experience with air calorimetry in my glow discharge cold fusion tests, because I operate with 300-500 volts and water is an inconvenience. Allow me to pass on a few hints. Murphy's law always applies. (For Peter Gluck, Murphy's law is a well known coloquialism: If something can go wrong, it will.). Sooner or later the air convection pattern will change and bring air of a different temperature to your thermometer. So, keep the air circulating and keep it WELL MIXED, to avoid large temperature variations from point to point. Several small fans inside the tent might be better than one larger one. If you have only one or two fans, use baffles to break up large coherent air streams into smaller eddies. The same goes for the room where the experiment is set up. If the Yusmar system operates at 5-10 kW, the room temperature is going to increase a lot, so keep the room air circulating and keep it well mixed. Assuming you build a tent over a pre-existing installation, the floor will give a big heat leak. Worse, it will be a variable, irreproducible heat leak. This is because, assuming that it is rather massive, it will take a very long time to equilibrate thermally with your test system. It will also take a very long time to fully cool down and thus to reset to a standard starting condition. This was initially a big problem for my experiments, where the chamber walls are analogous to the floor. I recommend that you try to lay some good insulation over all the floor that could get heated. The most important property of insulation, after low thermal conductivity, is low specific heat; you don't want the insulation to be slowly absorbing and releasing a significant amount of heat that you are not aware of or not controlling. My preferred insulation is styrofoam; it's about the best there is short of a vacuum dewar, and it's cheap and readily available here. I don't know what will be available in St. Pete. There are two approaches to calorimetry. Both can be made to work well. The first is "flow through". Here the "tent" should be more like a duct surrounding the apparatus and guiding an air flow past it. Use a fan to force the air flow along the duct, and measure the temperature difference between outlet and inlet air. If you can not get good air flow where you need it around the apparatus, use a few internal fans to circulate the air where you need it, for example to remove heat from radiators. The second method is to have a closed test chamber (closed tent) and let the heat escape across the tent surface. The calorimetry is done by measuring the temperature difference between the inside and outside of the tent. When thermometers are immersed in water they usually register something pretty close to the actual water temperature. This is because the water has a fairly high thermal conductivity and heat flow from the water to the thermometer firmly establishes the thermometer's temperature. However, air has a VERY much lower thermal conductivity, and the temperature of a thermometer in air can be influenced considerably by radiation (infra red, IR). This is emitted by nearby warmer apparatus, a hot room ceiling, or even a nearby warm human body. Put radiation shields around all your thermometers. These can be paper or cardboard, both of which absorb IR. Of course, the air to be measured must still circulate through freely. A satisfactory design is to put the thermometer inside a cardboard box with an inlet and an outlet hole, and arrange a few internal cardboard baffles so that no direct light from the outside reaches the thermometer. Wrap the outside of the box with aluminum foil, an IR reflecter, so that the box walls do not themselves acquire a falsly high temperature by absorbing IR. For best results, also glue or tape Al foil to the outside-facing baffle surfaces, too. You want the incident IR to be reflected as much as possible; but inside the box you want to absorb any remnant IR in plain cardboard before it reaches the thermometer. Thermometers in a strong airstream are less susceptible to IR problems, because the air flow equilibrates the cardboard and thermometer better with the air relative to the IR. This is an advantage of the flow through calorimetry over the closed chamber: you have good air flow at the duct inlet and outlet, and you also do not need to have thermometers inside the tent next to IR-emitting hot apparatus. But even with the air flow, use IR shielded thermometers. If you have any questions, feel free to ask me. Michael J. Schaffer schaffer gav.gat.com Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4146 General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 11:25:32 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA05678 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 11:25:14 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA05561 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 11:24:46 -0700 Received: from net-1-184.eden.com (net-1-184.eden.com [199.171.21.184]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id NAA22972 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 13:24:30 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 13:24:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199508171824.NAA22972 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: Calorimetry in Tents X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Good comments, Mike. Especially the bit about the floor..which would store up a lot of heat and create large significant slowly varying errors if not handled properly. Chris, you may have to resort to using some old carpeting (several layers) if stryofoam is not readily available. A simple cardboard shadow shield between the source of heat (i.e. the Yusmar or the electric space heater) should suffice reasonably well as an IR shield. Put the thing a foot away from the thermometer and the shield's own absorbed heat will not significantly affect the thermometer. After all, we're not talking about a real HOT thing anyway. This arrangement has the advantage of better air circulation around the thermometer than the boxes that Mike proposed...IMO. The flow calorimetry suggestion is quite interesting... I wonder which method (that or the delta-T-across-tent-walls) would produce the best accuracy? Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 14:00:43 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA11230 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 14:00:38 -0700 Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA11071 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 14:00:04 -0700 Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA00765; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 16:58:54 -0400 Date: 17 Aug 95 16:52:00 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: A brief ack. Message-ID: <950817205200_100433.1541_BHG79-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com All, Thanks for the comments on tent calorimetry, I too had forgotten such details as the damn floor. Sheesh. I only hope I won't need to do that trick. The other comments _look_ obvious - but only, I suspect, with that so-valuable optical assist: 20:20 hindsight. As for help, Scott, I am very happy with the help I've had here. And even happier with the way "Robert" is handling things for me/us at the 'other end'. Our meeting with him has been a totally unlooked-for blessing. Usually everything is uphill and push, push, push every inch; this time it's different. Excuse brief note. Heavy day. Finally all records broken for drought and heat here - since 1650s. No end in sight, but weather will break for the holiday weekend of 26-28 August - one _safe_ prophecy. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 14:57:22 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA24098 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 14:57:19 -0700 Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA24059 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 14:57:06 -0700 Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA09226; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 17:56:34 -0400 Date: 17 Aug 95 17:53:36 EDT From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: vortex-l group Subject: I hope I'm wrong! Message-ID: <950817215335_100060.173_EHK64-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris, "The comparison with Meyer is glib but inappropriate." Sorry, but I disagree. Whatever Meyer's religious propensities, he has attracted a large number of well-heeled potential customers for his process. The similarities with most other supposed ou devices are very close. In particular, the refusal to divulge enough detail to allow outsiders to reproduce the device in a form which works. Either you get a complete system which demonstrates a high degree of excess heat - tent or no tent - then you will be wasting your time. I wish you the very best of luck and hope you get the cooperation in St Pete which you deserve, but on past history the odds are rather against a definitive result. I hope I'm wrong. Norman. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 15:18:34 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA29141 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 15:18:31 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA29059 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 15:18:09 -0700 Received: from d203.aa.net (d203.aa.net [204.157.220.203]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA02303 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 15:18:01 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 15:18:01 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508172218.PAA02303 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: sonoluminescence in the lab Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott, >Knuke writes: > >> Have you looked at Prevelensik's work? > >not familiar with this person > >Scott Little The reason you haven't heard of him is probably because I spelled his name wrong. It's T. V. Prevenslik. (sorry mr. p.) His name has popped up in several places that I have been reading lately. I believe Bill Page mentions him a couple of times, and I just found a reference to him in the Jan. edition of CF/NET on pg 26. He is listed as having written a paper called "Sonoluminescence Induced Deuterium Fusion". I haven't read the paper, but would like to read anything by him on the subject. If any of you know where I can get electronic versions of his stuff, please post. From what I understand, he is a Hong Kong researcher/inventor who has been using his configurations to clean fish tanks as a commercial application, and has realized some success at this. Evidently, he has met with so much criticism of his views on the mechanisms involved that he is very careful these days about publishing anything. You might get some hints or clues about the SL phenomena, and possibly a more robust configuration/protocol from him. -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 17:07:55 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA22284 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 17:07:50 -0700 Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA22255 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 17:07:43 -0700 Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id UAA22092; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 20:07:12 -0400 Date: 17 Aug 95 19:55:45 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Religious mania and the art of debate. Message-ID: <950817235545_100433.1541_BHG50-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Norman, We know one another well enough that I doubt you'll mind my spelling it out! You've done the old trick, which is to pick on the weakest point I made - which I shouldn't have made, it is pretty weak and rather cheap - and ignore all the significant ones. Such as the difference between "well-heeled potential customers" and poverty-stricken but happy and satisfied _actual_ customers. I am now satisfied that I understand why Potapov is playing these (to my mind counter-productive) games. That is more than I ever managed to do with Meyer, and Gene's meeting with _him_ was hardly comparable to mine with Potapov. I would like to be able to report the kind of independent results I heard about today, but I don't know (a) whether my informant would be happy for me to do so, and, (b) the reports are - inevitably, by their nature - anecdotal. All I will say is that if the kind of boys who are _through independent sources_ reported as using these things are in fact doing so, then there is no way that that these machines are not very special indeed. Regards, Chris (who hopes St Petersburg is cooler than it is here) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 17:41:17 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA28870 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 17:41:14 -0700 Received: from GAV.GAT.COM (GAV.GAT.COM [192.5.166.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA28841 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 17:41:06 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: <199508180041.RAA28841 mail.eskimo.com> Received: from [198.133.146.230] by 198.133.146.230 with SMTP; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 17:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 17:41:20 -0800 To: Vortex-L mail.eskimo.com Subject: Replies on Calorimetry Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little writes: Chris, you may have to resort to using some old carpeting (several layers) if stryofoam is not readily available. I reply: Carpet has large mass per unit thermal insulation. You want something light and fluffy. Straw? Fluffed old clothes? See what's available. Scott Little writes: A simple cardboard shadow shield between the source of heat (i.e. the Yusmar or the electric space heater) should suffice reasonably well as an IR shield. Put the thing a foot away from the thermometer and the shield's own absorbed heat will not significantly affect the thermometer. After all, we're not talking about a real HOT thing anyway. This arrangement has the advantage of better air circulation around the thermometer than the boxes that Mike proposed...IMO. I reply: There will be LOTS of hot objects in the tent--radiators, pipes, pump, motor. I've seen visible light from a nearby fluorescent lamp cause problems, too. The important thing is to make sure the sensitive part of the thermometer does not "see" any surface appreciably hotter than the air you want to measure. Cardboard toilet paper or paper towel roll centers are good for thermometer shields. In fairness, I might be overemphasizing this point. My experiment operates at the few watt level, where these small effects are very important. If you have 20 C air temperature rises with Yusmar, you probably only have to worry about shielding from the hottest largest objects. Mitchell Swartz writes: Do you have data for paper as actually being efficient, or just better? Microwave irradiation also contributes albeit much less. Have you calibrated data on this? I reply: Paper has worked in my situation, though I use cardboard, too. Most plastics are good IR absorbers, too. I have not looked up data. Just placed the stuff between a heat source and a thermistor or thermocouple. The power in thermal microwave radiation is much less than in the IR range at room temperature, fortunately, so we don't have to worry about it. Mitchell Swartz writes: In my examination of photographic level illuminations, the elimination of IR required moving water. I reply: I think this might be that you have a strong IR source, so the absorber itself gets hot and then it either radiates or conducts to the object you are trying to keep cool. This is why I recommended an aluminum foil wrap over the outside of the shield--it greatly reduces the IR absorbtion. You still want IR absorbing surfaces inside, so that IR that enters the apertures that let the air enter freely gets absorbed before reaching the thermometer. Mitchell Swartz writes: How is your cf device work going? I reply: I have a home built, but rather good quality glow discharge tube with vacuum and gas supply systems, meant to reproduce Kucherov et al. I've had almost no free time to work on it in about a year. I've only tried Pd cathodes. They absorb deuterium or hydrogen well rapidly up to 30-40% of stochiometric, then the unloading seems to get about as fast as the loading and the process stops. No OU so far. Michael J. Schaffer schaffer gav.gat.com Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4146 General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 17 20:20:45 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA27327 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 20:20:41 -0700 Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA27290 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 20:20:28 -0700 Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id XAA17005; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 23:19:56 -0400 Date: 17 Aug 95 23:16:54 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Potapov versus Meyer Message-ID: <950818031654_72240.1256_EHB86-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: >internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com I know more than I wish I knew about both Potapov and Meyer. Let me summarize my views: They are similar enough to give me the heebejeebes, and different enough to give me hope. Norman is right in some ways, and what he says applies to many other lunatic fringe inventors. They refuse to share data, they refuse to allow proper testing, they wreck their own prospects. I know as well as anyone that dealing with Potapov has been monumentally frustrating. I have spent thousands of dollars of my own money on this venture! Having said that, I think we must acknowledge that he is miles ahead of Stan Meyer. He has given us far more information than Meyer ever did. He has given us machines, and access to his customers. Nobody I know has ever gotten one-tenth as much out of Meyer. We must remember that it is terribly difficult for Potapov to even reach us by fax. He knows very little about us, he does not know what we are saying, and I expect he knows nothing about our business practices and patent laws. After all, how much do any of us (apart from Robert and Peter) know about conditions in Russia? I am not talking about profound cultural gaps, I am talking about practical, day-to-day frustrations that make life in Russia so difficult. We should also acknowledge that there are some top-notch, mainstream scientists who also refuse to share data and who seldom allow others to see their equipment. Pons & Fleischmann and Arata spring to mind. I do not doubt for one second that what they have is real, and I expect they have good reasons for keeping their work confidential, but I also think they enjoy playing their cards close to the vest -- that's their style. It is frustrating for us, but what can anyone do? These people are not as bad as Potapov; they have shared many more details than he does and lots of performance data. They have shared enough to allow many other people to replicate them, although not with the level of success that they reported. Just because someone withholds data, that does not automatically make him a nut. It does make it impossible to do business with him. If I had known Potapov intended to withhold vital information, I would never have gotten involved with him, even if I was convinced his machine is real. If he had demanded a secrecy agreement up front, I would have gone along without hesitation. Secrecy agreements are perfectly acceptable. What bothers me is when someone takes my money first and *then* three months later demands an ex-post-facto agreement that I am supposed to write! He demands this before he will show me how to make the darn machine work?!? That's crazy. In any language, in any culture: c-r-a-z-y. Anyway, perhaps we can do an end-run around Potapov and get his machine properly tested in spite of his intransigence. I am optimistic that we can. I am not optimistic about the results though; I am beginning to doubt that the machine works. But I still think it is worth the effort and expense to give it one more try. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 03:33:13 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA19060 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 03:32:44 -0700 Received: from roimar.imar.ro (roimar.imar.ro [193.226.4.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA19045 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 03:32:31 -0700 Received: by roimar (MX V3.1C) id 24493; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 12:40:08 0200 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 12:40:03 0200 From: itimc roimar.imar.ro To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Message-ID: <009950F0.34A2FBC0.24493 roimar> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortexmen, Vortexanos, Mc.Vortexes, Vortexovs and all, For today's post: Chris, all your past and future sins are forgiven for sending us those nice quotes. I am reading New Scientist every week at the library of the Soros foundation but now they have vacation. Thank you! Mike Schaffer : You wrote: "(For Peter Gluck, Murphy's law is the well known...etc). Mike, I have one of the worlds greatest collection of quotes, I intend (immediately as I can get a computer for myself at home) to write a book about commented quotes in management, and I have created myself a lot of Murphy's laws. More precisely, I have created an anti-Murphy, a French scientist Yves-Henri Prum (YHPRUM is MURPHY written inverted). He is European and optimistic, likes perfectibility and fights false perfection. (don't forget communism claimed to be perfect) You can find quotes from Prum, (my pen-name) in my papers e.g in IE no.1. or in Fusion Facts. I am a well known murphylogist and , beyond any doubt the world's greatest prumologist-there is no other. For more details see e.g. my paper on Scipiology in Cold Fusion (Lapuszynski's) no 6. Thank you in advance. Your Peter Gluck Vortexescu From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 09:42:45 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA17554 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 09:40:59 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA17481 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 09:40:41 -0700 Received: from d205.aa.net (d205.aa.net [204.157.220.205]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA02954 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 09:40:07 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 09:40:07 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508181640.JAA02954 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: sonoluminescence in the lab Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Scott, I found these references to Prevenslik in Bill Page's discussion archives. I would definitly like to see more of his work. (beginning of reference 1 MTH) 6) Sonofusion? There was an interesting paper by T. V. Prevenslik rather mysteriously titled "Biological Effects of Ultrasonic Cavitation" but really a refutation of the notion that sonoluminescence necessarily implies high temperatures. Prevenslik points out that the mean free path of gas/water vapour molecules within a bubble easily exceeds the dimensions of the bubbles considered by Putterman, et. al. and argues, therefore that the energy of the collapsing bubble can not be transferred to thermal energy. Instead, he calculates that the Doppler driven energy shift of infrared photons reflected within the collapsing cavity provide the luminescence specturm observed by Putternam, et. al. I found this paper especially interesting, of course, since it seems in general agreement with the observations of my own paper. Some of you might recall that a few months ago some calculations on the possibility of Doppler shift effects in sonoluminescence were posted to sci.physics.fusion. I don't have the exact reference handy right now, so I'll discuss more of the details later. During the poster session, I talked to Prenvenslik, who said that he had experienced a strongly negative response to his attempts to publish his calculations in the usual scientific journals and that he had choosen to present the calculations in terms of "biological effects" and even a working demonstration unit that he claims makes use of this Doppler amplification of soft ultraviolet light to low x-ray frequencies for the purposes of sterilizing water in live fish tanks which he explains are very common in Hong Kong were he works. What else can I say? Its a strange world. ------------------------ (end of reference 1 MTH) (beginning of reference 2 MTH) In article , mdudley@brbbs.brbbs.com (MARSHALL DUDLEY) says: > >jlogajan skypoint.com (John Logajan) writes: > >-> There was an interesting paper by T. V. Prevenslik rather mysteriously >-> titled "Biological Effects of Ultrasonic Cavitation" but really a >-> refutation of the notion that sonoluminescence necessarily implies high >-> temperatures. Prevenslik points out that the mean free path of gas/water >-> vapour molecules within a bubble easily exceeds the dimensions of the >-> bubbles considered by Putterman, et. al. and argues, therefore that the >-> energy of the collapsing bubble can not be transferred to thermal energy. >-> Instead, he calculates that the Doppler driven energy shift of infrared >-> photons reflected within the collapsing cavity provide the luminescence >-> specturm observed by Putternam, et. al. > >Somehow I don't see this. What does the mean free path have to do with >anything? If I take a tennis ball that is bouncing around a room, and >suddenly shrink the room, the ball will gain energy every time it hits the >wall while the walls are moving in. Whether there are other tennis balls for >it to interact with seems to me to be irrelavent. > >I have never heard any evidence or theories which indicate that Boyles law >does not apply for small volumes (or rarefied gases in larger volumes). Any >idea on what such a hypothesis is based? > > Marshall > Marshall, I think the problem is that your model of a tennis ball in a shrinking room is too crude to apply to nanometer sized bubbles in water. The "tennis ball" is on the same order of size as the particles which make up the "walls" of the room. If the mean free path of the tennis ball exceeds the dimensions of the room, it seems likely that the tennis ball will no longer, in fact, be in the room! In principle, in going from a mechanical model to thermodynamics, one must deal with probabilities and statistical mechanics. In practice, this is too difficult and so thermodynamics is formulated as an essentially distinct discipline. What Prevenslik is really saying is that thermodynamics is being applied inappropriately by Putterman et. al. in this case. Prevenslik gave me a copy of his paper, so I can quote in detail from it if necessary. For now, here is the exact text of the abstract: Biological Effects of Ultrasonic Cavitation T.V. Prevenslik Abstract -------- Cavitation energy in a nearly evaculated bubble is shown to *not likely* reside in the thermal state of the water molecule. In a spherical bubble compression and until the bubble assumes a pancake collapse shape, a temperature increase does not occur in the bubble gas because the mean free path likely exceeds the bubble diameter. The subsequent collapse of the pancake shape to liquid density occurs with only a negligible volume change so that the temperature increase for compression heating of bubble gases is insignificant. Even near liquid density, a temperature increase does not occur as the energy transfer by molecular collisions is in the adiabatic limit for both vibrational and rotational modes. Instead, the IR radiation energy density present within the bubble is increased as required to satisfy standing wave boundry conditions with the bubble walls in the direction of collapse. For biological tissue in an opaque environment, bubble collapse is found to increase the 5 - 10 micro-m IR thermal radiation at ambient temperatur to about 3 - 5 eV that is capable of dissociating the water molecule and forming the chemically reactive hydroxyl radical. Hence, the biological effects of ultrasonic cavitation are proposed to be caused by the chemical reaction of the organisms with the excited electronic states of dissolved oxygen and water molecules. ------------- And here a few highlights from the paper: "Bubble collapse is an unstable process following a minimum energy path. Since the collapse of a spherical bubble follows a path of maximum energy, a spherical collapse shape is an unlikely event during ultrasonic cavitation. Instead a pancake-like shape of characteristic dimension delta following a minimum energy path is likely ...". ... "During bubble compression, changes in the thermal energy state of the water moleculre depend on intermolecular collisions and may be quantified by the mean free path mfp in relation to the bubble radius D0/2 prior to collapse, _ \/2 Kb Tvapor mfp = -------------- (1) 2 2 Pvapor d where Pvapor, Tvapor are the water vapor pressure and temperature, Kb is Boltzmann's constant. The condition for a change in the thermal state is the likelihood of intermolecular collisions with the bubble where mfp < D0/2. Conversely, if mfp > D0/2, a change in the thermal state of the gas molecules within the bubble is unlikely as the molecules are likely to be found in the walls of the bubble." ----------------- (end of reference 2 MTH) To Bill Page: Does Prevenslik have an Internet account? Do you think he would mind spending a little time with us? To John Logajan: Is the paper that you have in electronic format? To Anybody: Does anybody know if Marshall Dudley knows about this group? -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 10:23:52 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA27147 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 10:23:45 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA27056 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 10:23:19 -0700 Received: from s1c0p1.aa.net (s1c0p1.aa.net [204.157.220.165]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA06155 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 10:23:00 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 10:23:00 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508181723.KAA06155 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Hydrosonic and CF Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Both Bill and Ron are viewing water as a condensed matter lattice as opposed to a solid matter lattice in which they believe a proton is fusing with a Deuterium atom to produce Helium. They are both postulating, if I am reading it correctly, that either through shear forces or through adabiatic pressure forces, the hydrogen molecule itself is being shredded and a proton is let loose to go looking for something to unite with. They both feel that within the lattice structure of the water, this proton is capable of fusing at low temperatures with the deuterium atom found in small quantities in light water. Bill cites Prevenslik's observation that a vapor bubble cannot be responsible for the magnitude of pressures and temperatures that Putterman is predicting. Evidently Prevenslik states that the liquid water lattice is capable of absorbing the various molecular components at the critical moment of the bubble's final stages of collapse, and that the extremely high temperatures are never reached. Ron cites Schwinger who seems to support Putterman's observations. It is interesting to note that Prevenslik is using transducers (I believe) to clean fish tanks. Also interesting is the fact that Schwinger makes reference to an early study where hydrogen peroxide was found to be a byproduct of cavitation in distilled water. Griggs has made statements to the effect that no matter what kind of water/glop mixtures he runs through his device, his rotor and housing surfaces remain shiny clean. These data are evidence to me that at least part of the heat coming from cavitation is due to the chemical interactions of Oxygen, Hydrogen, Carbon, and other elements. If I were going to test for gas emissions, I would test for hydrogen peroxide in tanks of deaereated distilled water, and CO, and CO2 in tanks containing aereated water contaminated with organic impurities. Hydrochloric acid gas should be tested for in water containing Clorine. In configurations that contained dissimilar metals, boric acid should be checked for. All these things and many more should be, in my mind, checked for way before any nuclear byproducts simply because they are the most probable causes of the anomolous production of heat and light. They don't require the shredding of Hydrogen, and are simply more believable. If the amount of heat produced by these reactions is found to be greater than the amount that is supposed to be produced, then you would have reason to believe that something nuclear is happening, but not before. -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 12:56:25 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA01653 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 12:55:59 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA01612 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 12:55:51 -0700 Received: from s1c0p0.aa.net (s1c0p0.aa.net [204.157.220.164]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA17090 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 12:55:45 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 12:55:45 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508181955.MAA17090 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: hydrogen gas reactions Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Michael Mandeville writes: >Knuke: we have a Brown's Gas Generator if you are interested in experience >with how hydrogen must burn. To MWM: Yeah, I'd like to see it, but if that's the thing that Gary Hawkins blew up then just send me a video of its' actual operation:-). I went back to Gary's Web Page and reread the section on Brown's Gas, but it left me with more questions than when I started. (as per usual) Is that the device that is in the Smithsonian or the Museum of Science and Industry? Is it here in Seattle? Does that device actually generate the hydrogen and oxygen, or does it just mix it in the right proportions? Are you getting your H and O from a welding supply house or are you making your own? What temps or pressures are necessary for the two gases to recombine without the aid of an actual flame? What would be the thermal energy released during recombination? Are you guys sure you know what you are doing with this stuff? Do you know why the one model blew up? Are those clear plastic pieces made of polycarbonate? Have you used it to sublimate Tungsten? Is there any electronically available information on Yule Brown or Brown's Gas? What are your ideas about this? This is certainly most interesting. Also of interest, Mike, is the section in Gary's WWW Page about the group in New Zealand that is working on the hydrogen turbine. Is that work relevant to what we are discussing? The information given in the html doc is pretty sparse. Is the information proprietary? -Knuke (I gotta million questions) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 14:53:01 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA17967 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 14:52:40 -0700 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA17896 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 14:52:23 -0700 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id OAA09598; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 14:52:03 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 14:52:03 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: hydrogen gas reactions In-Reply-To: <199508181955.MAA17090 big.aa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 18 Aug 1995, Michael T. Huffman wrote: > Yeah, I'd like to see it, but if that's the thing that Gary Hawkins blew > up then just send me a video of its' actual operation:-). I went back to > Gary's Web Page and reread the section on Brown's Gas, but it left me with > more questions than when I started. A couple of quick answers: The explosion: don't trust a thick polycarbonate container to be safe at 60psi pressure when it's in continuous contact with sodium hydroxide solution for months! The gas was a mixture of H2 and O2 (!!!) and there may have been a spark, but I suspect that the cause was chemical attack and cracking of the plastic. Brown's gas is simply H2 and O2 in perfect 2:1 proportion. It's supposed to NOT explode when ignited, while a less perfect mixture does explode as expected. Maybe the resulting pure steam condenses fast enough to interfere with the explosion shockwave? There is an old physics demo where a soda can full of pure steam is plunged into cold water, and the steam condenses onto the water surface so fast that a vacuum is formed and the can is crushed in an instant. It's not TOTALLY insane that something strange might happen at 2:1 mixtures, where the result is a vacuum and a high-speed steam jet, but no residual gases. The typical gas generator is a couple of electrodes in a sealed electrolyte chamber, so when DC is applied, the gas provides the pressure for the welding torch. After the device has been run for awhile and the air, the dissolved gasses, etc. have been purged, the output will be extremely close to 2:1 mixture. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 15:10:24 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA21510 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 15:09:57 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA21447 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 15:09:36 -0700 Received: from d206.aa.net (d206.aa.net [204.157.220.206]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA26612 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 15:08:06 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 15:08:06 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508182208.PAA26612 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Potopov Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Jed Rothwell, Jed writes: > I know as well as anyone that dealing >with Potapov has been monumentally frustrating. I have spent thousands of >dollars of my own money on this venture! Just because someone withholds >data, that does not automatically make him a nut. It does make it impossible >to do business with him. If I had known Potapov intended to withhold vital >information, I would never have gotten involved with him, even if I was >convinced his machine is real. > What bothers me is when someone takes my money first and >*then* three months later demands an ex-post-facto agreement that I am >supposed to write! He demands this before he will show me how to make the darn >machine work?!? That's crazy. In any language, in any culture: c-r-a-z-y. > Jed, After spending so much money on the equipment itself, and finding out 3 months later that Potopov, by his own admission to Peter, intentionally sold you only the shell of the device, how do you know that he has not deceived you in other ways. You still don't know if he even has a patent. You are not the only one that Potopov has done this to, and it hasn't been in just the last three months. By a conservative estimate, I reckoned that ENECO spent about $40,000 in visits to the East, (sometimes on a days' notice), buying an incomplete product, shipping it to the West, buying the equipment necessary to run the tests, and taking up over three months of expensive lab time to determine that this incomplete device was "normal". I believe this started in January of this year. What would you have to say about Potopov if you received copies of signed documents that proved that Potopov had actually contracted as a promoter for another company that was developing the very same vortex tube immediately prior to his forming of the VIZOR company? What if you had copies of signed nondisclosure agreements between Potopov and this other company? What if you had invested your entire life savings in this other company and you were say, 62 years old. What would you do if you knew that other good people had invested their entire life savings in this other company soley on the basis of your reporting and recommendation - and then lost it. How would you feel about Potopov if you suddenly found a newspaper report on your desk from the Russian equivalant of API dated May 19 of 1981 saying that Potopov had been previously arrested by an agency similar to our FBI and was charged with the Russian equivalent of mail fraud, interstate transportation of stolen property, and securities fraud? That he had been accused of operating a fraudulent franchise scheme as well as selling fraudulant stock in his company? As a responsible journalist and an honorable man, would you keep this information quiet or would you publish it. If you yourself had invested in VIZOR directly or had purchased a license for a substantial amount of your money to manufacture and distribute Yusmars in this country, and you found out later that the technology had actually been developed by someone else, and that Potopov had, in fact, stolen that technology, would you be inclined to keep that quiet or would you report it, even though it meant losing your investment and damaging your credibility? If you kept it quiet, could you enjoy a meal bought with the profits of your venture knowing that the people that had invested in the other company were now bankrupt, living in other peoples' basements, and starving? Would you try and justify your silence by saying to yourself that you were actually helping the industry by not acknowledging that this kind of thievery goes on, and that by saying so would give the industry a bad name? In light of the fact that Potopov is coming to the US, ostensibly to promote what we have been told is "his" device, and to gather as much capital from as many unsuspecting investors as possible, do you feel any moral obligation at all to warn those good people that are going to be approached by Potopov for their life savings? I think you know what I'm driving at. There are too many wolves in this business, and not enough resources for the serious study of the phenomena themselves. The money that has been thrown away on unscrupulous people has been enormous, and could have been much better spent. I can also personally attest to the fact that many of the people that have naively invested in these unscrupulous people, EARNED their money, literally, with their blood, sweat, and tears. While I agree with you that the device that Potopov is selling still deserves to be examined, I still stand by my original statement that Potopov deserves to be horsewhipped. You and I both know that he is not the only one. If you would like copies of the documents that I have alluded to, all you have to do is ask. I think that being quiet about it only enrichens the wolves, and impoverishes the trusting sheep. It is wrong, and you should decide which side of the fence you want to live. -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 15:30:15 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA25708 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 15:29:38 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA25563; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 15:29:00 -0700 Received: from d200.aa.net (d200.aa.net [204.157.220.200]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA28361; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 15:27:36 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 15:27:36 -0700 Message-Id: <199508182227.PAA28361 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: hydrogen gas reactions Cc: ghawk eskimo.com Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Michael Mandeville writes: > >>Knuke: we have a Brown's Gas Generator if you are interested in experience >>with how hydrogen must burn. > >To MWM: > > Yeah, I'd like to see it, but if that's the thing that Gary Hawkins blew >up then just send me a video of its' actual operation:-). I went back to >Gary's Web Page and reread the section on Brown's Gas, but it left me with >more questions than when I started. (as per usual) Is that the device that >is in the Smithsonian or the Museum of Science and Industry? no this was manufactured in China and was rewired and charged up by Merlin because the fusing was screwy - it works quite well > Is it here in Seattle? In Anacortes but can be here in Redmond on a few days notice Does that device actually generate the hydrogen and oxygen, or >does it just mix it in the right proportions? eletrolysis generator > Are you getting your H and O >from a welding supply house or are you making your own? re above MAKE >What temps or >pressures are necessary for the two gases to recombine without the aid of an >actual flame? I believe it is around 1000 C but check the physic/chem ref book > What would be the thermal energy released during >recombination? Are you guys sure you know what you are doing with this >stuff? yep > Do you know why the one model blew up? yep, ghawk overdrove it and split so much water it overheated - I think it was simply too much pressure and too hot > Are those clear plastic >pieces made of polycarbonate? > Have you used it to sublimate Tungsten? yep > Is >there any electronically available information on Yule Brown or Brown's Gas? >What are your ideas about this? This is certainly most interesting. hmmm, I have about twenty pages of text which I wrote - i think i will webbize them for access > Also of interest, Mike, is the section in Gary's WWW Page about the group >in New Zealand that is working on the hydrogen turbine. Is that work >relevant to what we are discussing? The information given in the html doc >is pretty sparse. Is the information proprietary? -Knuke (I gotta million >questions) don't know: I am cc this to ghawk for his answer to you verry busy sorry to be so terse ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 16:03:57 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA02628 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 16:03:51 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA02585 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 16:03:39 -0700 Received: from d208.aa.net (d208.aa.net [204.157.220.208]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA31226 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 16:03:29 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 16:03:29 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508182303.QAA31226 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: Potapov's Reticence: Chris!!! Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Subject: Audiatur et altera pars. > >That's: please listen to the opinion of the other (part) > > Dear Friends, (when I say it, I mean it). > >I spoke to Potapov at phone Tuesday, 18.05-18.22. He just had >arrived back from Moscow where he did experimentation at the >concern "Energiya". >I told him that we are not contented with the cooperation with >him, that he doesn't help and so on.. >He answered: >"If I help and give you all my know-how data, who guarantees me >that somebody wouldn't start the production of my machines in >your countries? My invention is not protected there, LEGALLY our >relationship is not settled. We do not have any kind of >agreement. It exists an international law of the protection of >the intellectual property and I will respect it and my partners >have also to do so.." >He spoke many times about patent law and licensing and told that >the rules are the same everywhere. The word LEGAL and its >derivatives was the leitmotif of his speech. He wants such an >agreement before telling his secrets. He wants protection for his >idea, when I blamed him for not sending us the "Yusmar Complete" >for Mike Butcher, he alluded to the contract to be settled >including explicitly secrecy agreement and commitment to not >manufacture the thermogenerator without a license. A complete set >is much easier to be reproduced than a Yusmar. >His point of view will be presented in an official letter/fax. >You have to understand that a secrecy agreement includes the >prohibition of communicating the experimental data e.g. in a >discussion group like VORTEX. He has a big problem. If no patent applications have been filed, it is now too late...because enough disclosure has already been made. There will be no patents on this technology which will stand, other than possibly what has been previously filed, or if a non-obvious alteration is made which improves it, but first the basics of does it work has to be answered. So I can understand his reticence. He is trying to protect himself. What a shame. His best benefit it to become as visable as possible at this point, giving the knowledge away...freely. Because he can make millions in the information and in speaking demos all over the world. He can solve all of his lifestream problems abundantly if he can adapt the right attitude in regard to his work, his property...but of course all of this is premised on IT WORKS REALLY IN A FORM THAT ANYONE ELSE CAN MAKE IT WORK, with of course the right stuff. This is the message to convey to him. It is now beyond protection. Now he must GIVE it to the world if he has the confidence of the suchness of it. If so, the world will beat a path to his doorstop like vortexians are already doing, and he won't have to spend much more time in Moldavia by life's dictate, only by choice. Teaching, consulting, and publishing at this point is the source of money, not licenses. Chris, Knute: you know the futility of his trying to protect himself at this point. Chris, Knute: you can see the essence of this logic, work on him... This post is the most important contribution I will be able to make to this group. Best wishes ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 17:09:47 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA15953 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 17:09:42 -0700 Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA15889 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 17:09:21 -0700 Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id UAA00188; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 20:08:48 -0400 Date: 18 Aug 95 20:06:50 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Your note about Potapov Message-ID: <950819000650_100433.1541_BHG40-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Knuke, I've often commented favourably on your posts, but the hell is all this stuff? This is a semi-public board and, if I want to say something like that, I commit it to private email. If you have information of such a possibly explosive nature, you shouldn't be so coy. And I will admit I was holding fire on signing any secrecy agreement, partly because I guessed that even talking about one in public might flush something like this out, as well as the old rule that "what you haven't done can often be delayed but what you have done can't often be undone later". I don't know how you came by this, or how long you've had it - but I do know that I find offensive the sort of insinuations you make about Jed (if I read you right). If you have documentary evidence of the kind you are talking about, then this puts the whole matter in a different perspective. I (and Jed and Gene) are in the business of finding and publishing the truth about "CF" and related subjects best we can determine it. Not in swindling anybody. On the other hand, if all we have is hearsay and innuendo, then we don't publish that. We don't usually even bother to investigate it for possible publication, because there is so much of it around that there's not enough time in the world for doing so. We may warn people that such stories are doing the rounds, that's all. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 19:00:47 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA04154 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 19:00:19 -0700 Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA04126 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 19:00:08 -0700 Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id VAA21354; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 21:59:29 -0400 Date: 18 Aug 95 21:58:07 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Too many hypothetical questions Message-ID: <950819015807_72240.1256_EHB177-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: >internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Knuke, sounding frazzled and frustrated, asked me a whole series of hypothetical questions, most of which I cannot answer. The gist of it is, what would I do if I found out that Potapov is a crook. Chris already answered about as well as anyone could. Let me quote him, just in case someone missed this paragraph: "I (and Jed and Gene) are in the business of finding and publishing the truth about "CF" and related subjects best we can determine it. Not in swindling anybody. On the other hand, if all we have is hearsay and innuendo, then we don't publish that. We don't usually even bother to investigate it for possible publication, because there is so much of it around that there's not enough time in the world for doing so. We may warn people that such stories are doing the rounds, that's all." I guess my answer is that I believe I *have* found out he is a crook, or perhaps just a fool. It does not make any difference which; he should be avoided either way. In any case, I will do exactly what I would have done if the machine had worked perfectly: I will publish the information in the magazine and on Internet, and let the chips fall where they may. I still do not know what to make of Potapov. I still hope that his device may be for real. I have some rational basis for that hope, including some confidential reports of successful tests. I still think it is worth one more test, if we can make it to St. Petersburg. To cover a few specific questions and comments: "You still don't know if he even has a patent." No I do not know, but I doubt he has one. We would have found it by now. I had the British Library and other services do a search. "What would you have to say about Potopov if you received copies of signed documents that proved that Potopov had actually contracted as a promoter for another company that was developing the very same vortex tube immediately prior to his forming of the VIZOR company?" I would not be the least bit surprised. As to what I would do with those documents . . . How can I know who is telling the truth in a situation like that? I would not necessarily publish anything, because it could be an underhanded attempt by the Other Company to destroy Potapov's reputation. I cannot say know what I would do. I might just write something like: "Potapov's claims to ownership have been challenged by others. One company says that they invented the device and Potapov stole the design . . ." etc. I would not take sides without overwhelming proof, and I do not think anyone can ever get overwhelming proof out of Russia. Even publishing the allegation would be serious business if Vizor was a U.S. firm. In any case, this is irrelevant. I don't care where the design came from, or who owns it. All I want to is to find out if it really is over unity. If there is some tangled web of controversy over the ownership, so what? That has nothing to do with me. I have already warned people here and in sci.physics.fusion not to try to deal with the man directly, because it is so difficult to reach him and because of the culture gaps. I said that months ago. I will release a final report someday soon and I will say it again. I will add that his support is on-again, off-again, his cooperation minimal, and that he ignored a Purchase Order from me for a whole machine. Anyone reading that report will draw the logical conclusion that Potapov is a fake. I do not need to say that, and *I will not say that*, because I am still not convinced he is fake. I am leaning in that direction. "How would you feel about Potopov if you suddenly found a newspaper report on your desk from the Russian equivalent of API dated May 19 of 1981 saying that Potopov had been previously arrested by an agency similar to our FBI . . ." Russia does not have any agency similar to our FBI. I would never trust any police agency or any press report out of Russia. I am not a private detective, I do not go chasing down reports of 14 year old arrest records in countries that take three days to get to. I am interested in the physics of this machine, not in the cloak and dagger opportunities. I honestly could not care less who, if anyone, owns the property rights to the thing. "If you yourself had invested in VIZOR directly or had purchased a license for a substantial amount of your money to manufacture and distribute Yusmars in this country, and you found out later that the technology had actually been developed by someone else . . ." I have done some very stupid things in my life, but never *that* stupid, thank goodness. I would never invest in any company or license until I myself -- In person! -- With my own hands and instruments! -- have verified the thing. First things first. I hope that he has not ripped anyone off, but if he has, he is not the first o-u scam. People like that come out of the woodwork constantly. Several per month, at least. Perpetual motion scams and 400 m.p.g. carburetor scams are probably some of the most common around. All I can say is that people have come to me from time to time asking if I think they should invest in thus and such. I never say Yes or No, but I do tell them what I myself would do before investing anything. I outline the kinds of testing and verification I think the machine needs. I say: "If you are going to put any money into this venture, you must only pay for a third party you trust to act as your agent to go test the thing. Not one dime goes to the inventor, under any circumstances. The third party must be someone you are absolutely certain has no connection with the inventor, and no previous knowledge of him." I also say that I myself am not involved with any CF companies. I was involved with one, briefly, but I sold all of my shares. That is a pretty powerful message, isn't it? If I had millions to burn, I would probably invest in four or five companies. This caution does not apply to Japanese NEDO project participants, because they are so big. I have no idea whether Hitachi, Toshiba and NTT are good investments at the moment, but the fact that they have teams working on CF cannot possibly harm their prospects, and I am certain that the reports they have published describing CF excess heat results can be trusted to the fifth decimal place. If one of them hits the jackpot with a practical device, I guess that would make its stock go sky high, but I cannot predict which one might score, because they are so secretive. There are 20 participants now, so you would have to spread your money thinly to cover them all. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Aug 18 23:55:40 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA14066 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 23:55:05 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA14054 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 23:55:00 -0700 Received: from s1c1p4.aa.net (s1c1p4.aa.net [204.157.220.176]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA26959 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 23:54:47 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 23:54:47 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508190654.XAA26959 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Reporter's Responsibility Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To All, Jed, Gene, Chris, have been, in my experience, decent, good, and honorable people. What they don't seem to realize is that by not checking out their sources before they publish their reports, they are indeed publishing heresay and innuendo. They did it with Griggs and they did it again with Potopov. The documents that I have don't pertain to Potopov, they pertain to Griggs. They are mostly a matter of public record, and you guys can check them out for yourselves. It's not difficult, illegal, or very expensive, and it is what most responsible, mainstream journalists do before going to press. I told Jed and Gene what I knew about Griggs six months or so ago in private. They've had plenty of time to verify it. When the first report on Potopov from the Chubbs appeared, there was no calorimetry performed, no patent search, no credible reports, no background check on Potopov - nothing - except for Potopov and a few others saying that the device worked. When Chris did his fact finding report, it was the same with the addition of the "monk story" which is what tipped me off. This led to a frantic rush to buy the Yusmar and give it a whirl. Potopov pocketed everybodies' cash and gave them a dummy device. Everybody that bought one got screwed. Period. So far, a lot of time, effort, and money has gone into that toilet. If the reporters had done the patent search, background check, and calorimetry, a lot of money would have been saved by the trusting people in the West. Even if the device eventually proves to be legit, you still know nothing about Potopov. When Jed and Gene published their report on Griggs it was the same except that they did do a number of calorimetry tests which showed the device that Griggs is selling was overunity. Again, the frantic rush, trusting people invested, Griggs is pocketing the cash. A background check would have uncovered the fact that Griggs was arrested in 1981 for interstate transportation of stolen property, mail fraud, and securities fraud. I got this info from the Lexis/Nexis service owned by Mead Data Central, Inc. I used the same service to find the Griggs' patent. I got more info from the Information America Network regarding Griggs and Kelly Hudson, and from Dun and Bradstreet's Business Information Reports. The usual garbage: nonpayment of bills, nonpayment of taxes, judgements, etc.. This and a copy of a signed and dated nondisclosure agreement with Aqua Inc., and a signed and dated copy of the license with Aqua for the sales distribution, marketing, and promotion of the Aqua Hammer technology for a 40% cut in the gross profits. All before Griggs secretly filed his patent application, and dissolved the corporate umbrella that he was operating under that year. The people that actually invented the technology, financed all those developments and tests, that Griggs left behind at Aqua got screwed. Period. Their work and their life savings gone. Griggs has started and folded so many corporations in his career that even I was impressed. You guys want this stuff or no? I can send it to you or you can look it up yourselves. Do you want the telephone numbers of Bob Price, Sheldon Hughes, or Grant Stoffle? The point is this: When you guys report positively on a technology that is being offered to the public for sale by a company, you are implicitly giving your endorsement to the product and the company. Your eagerness to "get the scoop" is admirable, but it influences peoples' investment and buying decisions. Money ends up going into the wrong hands. A little bit of research into the company, the inventor, the patent, and a few other things would prevent some of that from happening. I would like to see IE and the Vortex Group reporting on the honest advancements being made by honest researchers. There will come a time when the government and large corporations will be forced to look at those advancements and researchers. I would like to see government funding come to some of these research projects, and I would like to see IE become the front line vehicle for reporting on those projects. That won't happen unless there is some assurance that people won't get ripped off. If IE continues to report on companies and products without doing at least some background checking, this kind of thing will happen again and again. IE will end up looking like The National Inquirer of the science news world, and that would be a great loss. I happen to like you guys. I have a great deal of respect for your integrity and the sacrifices you have made for this industry, but you really need to look a little deeper before you publish. It literally starts a stampede sometimes, and sometimes it ends up in a swamp. To Jim Griggs: You've been lurking here for over a week now, what do you have to say about this? -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Aug 19 03:36:11 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA03477 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 03:34:49 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id DAA03464 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 03:34:43 -0700 Received: from s1c0p3.aa.net (s1c0p3.aa.net [204.157.220.167]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA05402 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 03:34:36 -0700 Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 03:34:36 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508191034.DAA05402 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: Reporter's Responsibility Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A >To All, > Jed, Gene, Chris, have been, in my experience, decent, good, and >honorable people. What they don't seem to realize is that by not checking >out their sources before they publish their reports, they are indeed >publishing heresay and innuendo. > When Jed and Gene published their report on Griggs it was the same except >that they did do a number of calorimetry tests which showed the device that >Griggs is selling was overunity. Again, the frantic rush, trusting people >invested, Griggs is pocketing the cash. A background check would have >uncovered the fact that Griggs was arrested in 1981 for interstate >transportation of stolen property, mail fraud, and securities fraud. I got >this info from the Lexis/Nexis service owned by Mead Data Central, Inc. I >used the same service to find the Griggs' patent. I got more info from the >Information America Network regarding Griggs and Kelly Hudson, and from Dun >and Bradstreet's Business Information Reports. The usual garbage: >nonpayment of bills, nonpayment of taxes, judgements, etc.. This and a copy >of a signed and dated nondisclosure agreement with Aqua Inc., and a signed >and dated copy of the license with Aqua for the sales distribution, >marketing, and promotion of the Aqua Hammer technology for a 40% cut in the >gross profits. > >To Jim Griggs: You've been lurking here for over a week now, what do you >have to say about this? -Knuke > > > My, my...I should be asleep by now but the implicit warming up of this discussion through Knute's rather frontal assault on some important up front issues got my blood moving. Knute, I couldn't agree more with you...on all points. You are a most astute individual with a sense of ethics like the composition of the Rocky Mountains. Let me also add that there is an element of greed in the activity of rushing into a new "potential" (with visions of millions, maybe billions tucked away just under a mental mattress). The money lost, IF LOST, was fair and square lost on speculative frenzy. The air right now is supercharged because the animals in the woodwork sense that King Bigbang This Or That Uncertainty Principle Quantum Confusion Obscurity Academic Physics is DEAD DEAD DEAD. There is something happening here Mr. Jones and you don't what it is, do you? (thanks Dylan) So speculative exploration is legit if not respectable...at least for a while. But I firmly hunchily suspect that something is going to break...I can't explain but I always know when something is going to break, I've always been right since about four years old. This gives a certain knowing but it is a very insecure, myopic knowing. All of you know what I am talking about, at least a little. The creative exploratory centers of the brain always draw part of their energy from this ill-defined intuitive/psychic side of the brain....those who do DAMN WELL HAVE TO LEARN THE LESSON. THE LESSON IS: don't believe anything. You have to know. Reading a report IS NOT KNOWING. Believing in your own hunch IS NOT KNOWING. Following your speculation because it is exiting IS NOT KNOWING WHAT YOU ARE DOING. It is always controlled folly. Speculation is building the knowing and it is not knowable until it is no longer speculation. IT COSTS MONEY TO SPECULATE. In the last few years we have all learned in various ways how shallow and incomplete and misleading and sometimes flat wrong ALL of the basic reference books and conventions of science and technology. How in the hell can anyone expect a small publication to sort it all out? I read the stuff for fascination, and some of the stuff seems (read SEEMS) legitimate. A journalist has to hang his butt out on the thin edge where reality begins to turn into the strangeness. Hisher job is to point to where the edge is advancing and new things actions changes can be seen found etc. Some stuff he hallucinates. Some stuff is forcefed by scam-artists or the psychotically deluded and some stuff is the new wave. Heshe then provides those who are exploring with enough valid information to stimulate the explorers to pull the concepts into a legitimate knowledge, sorting out the deluded and the scammy. But Heshe can't do it all. We need this function. We need the learning. We also need to remember THE LESSON and not let greed lead us into spending too much money too soon on any line of speculation. Potapov claims to have knowledge-ability (forget the device) which he is attempting to leverage into money. Deal with him there, first. See my previous post RE: Chris. Since he cannot protect his device in today's international economy, he has to come to the realization that the only way he can succeed financially is to sell the information. If it is real information, or can be turned into real information, he will make a lot of money. He just needs to exhibit around the world, with people like Knute able freely to measure and define to their hearts content. That is the way to cut through the BS with any of these guys. It is the only path, if legit, which wins. The other, hiding, leads to nowhere. If an inventor does not understand that, the inventor is too immature or too phoney to produce a desirable end. Better to stay away unless you have a REALY BIG wad of playdough. Now, journalists also need to understand that they must not hide what they do or do not know. They have these sly ways of leading you to believe that they know more than they really know. Sometimes they are "selling" their stories as opposed to selling their service. This is especially true in special interest journals. It creates readership if people "come to the conclusion" that it is an important story for them, one they want to follow. That is one of the reasons why I like Tinsley's reports. Because he first person accounts for what he is doing, I am able to assess what he knows and what he doesnt know with resolution which far exceeds anything I read in the third person bureaucratic media. He gives me high confidence in his assessments, even if I still don't completely agree with the result of his angles of analysis. I mean this guy is out there with his butt flapping in the cold wispy breeze of the strangeness of where we suspect an advancing edge (but aren't completely sure of what direction to look in) and has intelligent things to say which have high validity, even if he is in the process of tripping over a folly. Same with Gene. Knute, that's saying something. My wife is going to kill me for getting to bed so late... ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Aug 19 09:02:30 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA01872 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 09:01:27 -0700 Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA01853 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 09:01:22 -0700 Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA05775; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 12:00:49 -0400 Date: 19 Aug 95 11:59:31 EDT From: Wolfram Bahmann <100276.261 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Forum Subject: Re: Brown's Gas Message-ID: <950819155931_100276.261_BHG45-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: to all interested in the Brown's Gas >are there any electronically available information on Yule Brown or Brown's Gas? P.A.C.E. (Planetary Assoc. for Clean Energy, Ottawa) did some cooperation will Yull Brown on his welding machines. Although not in electronic form I want to give a set of references for own studies: - Anomalous water - explained by Brown's Gas Research PACE Newsletter, Vol. 6 (4), July 1993, p 11-12 - Haley, Daniel. Transmutation of radioactive materials will Brown's Gas .- 2500% radioactivity reduction PACE Newsletter, Vol. 6 (4), p 8-9 - Yull Brown's Gas - general description PACE Newsletter, Vol. 6 (4), p 10-11 We have a little working group here in Germany and have some small (200 l/h) machines working; we did ceramic/steel combination, tungsten sublimation and implosion experiments. The flame temperature without any contact to metals or ceramics (in air only) was measured in California with a thermo-scanning, video-camera to be as less as 140-150 degree Celsius increasing instantly when in contact with other materials. Wolfram Bahmann PACE Euro-Secr. Germany From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Aug 19 21:44:16 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA17885 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 21:42:54 -0700 Received: from eskimo.com (eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA17862 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 21:42:45 -0700 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id VAA15425; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 21:42:40 -0700 Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 21:42:40 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: Reporters Responsibility Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To all: "finger" can be excecuted from shell. Various systems give various info, try "finger billb eskimo.com" if you have access to unix shell. We should all be aware that Jim Griggs is apparently NOT currently lurking. A finger of his account at mindspring.com shows a last login of 8/6/95. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From owner-vortex-l Sat Jun 24 16:51:51 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA09356; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 16:43:32 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA09345; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 16:43:26 -0700 Received: from d106.aa.net (d106.aa.net [204.157.220.106]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA12870 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 1995 16:43:24 -0700 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 16:43:24 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199506242343.QAA12870 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: Potapov device test Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Hi guys, here's some stuff to read and think about: > Scott, I really appreciate your posting this info. I know that it must have taken some time to do etc. Although I've read the report about 10 times, I still haven't worked through all of the calculations. I have looked at the motor/pump numbers though, and there are a couple of questions that come to mind. First of all, the pump that you are using is only delivering approx. 6000gph almost no head@61PSI, and requires a 7.5HP motor to drive it. From what my experience, this is terrible performance. I would expect that you should be able to deliver that much water/pressure with a 2HP motor/pump combination (which might explain the 300% efficiency claim). Also, I should tell you that almost all large volume, centrifical pumps require a NetPositiveSuctionHead Pressure to function properly. In other words, your performance would be greatly improved if you installed a water outlet and valve at or near the bottom of the barrel, and mounted the pump at that level. This would put the pump and all the necesssary plumbing below the water line, and this would give you a postive suction head pressure. This is relatively easy to do with an acetylene torch, pipe, and some brazing rod. I also would like to ask if you are observing air bubbles coming out of either of the device output ports? If you are, then it would indicate that the the pump is sucking air through the shaft seal or the pump inlet pipe threads. This would seriously affect the hydrodynamics of the device itself, and could possibly be cured by mounting the pump in the manner outlined in the previous paragragh. In closing, I have to say that this is a curious device. I hope that you are going to continue to work on it, as I would like to discuss this in more detail. I would like to know the pump/motor manufacturers' name and model numbers as well, if you get the chance. -Knuke From owner-vortex-l Tue Jun 27 10:15:29 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA11246; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:09:39 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA11161; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:09:20 -0700 Received: from d100.aa.net (d100.aa.net [204.157.220.100]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA18205 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:09:16 -0700 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:09:16 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199506271709.KAA18205 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: Committee on Unconventional Science Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >To all: > >As a member of the general public, if I wanted to donate money which would >go towards research grants for unconventional science ( CF, transmutation, >psi, etc.), where would I go? If such an organization already exists, >they certainly don't seem to be approaching the public. Is Dr. Puthoff >on the board of any such org? If you are trolling for research funding, I just got a thing in the mail from NIST that says that they will grant money to people (up to $100K) who submit proposals relating to energy devices. I also have a friend that went to school for about 18 years for free, just on the strength of his grant proposal writing abilities, if you want a pro's evaluation of your proposal. -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Aug 19 23:48:22 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA02942 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 23:46:55 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA02926 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 23:46:50 -0700 Received: from s1c0p3.aa.net (s1c0p3.aa.net [204.157.220.167]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA06139 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 23:46:53 -0700 Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 23:46:53 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508200646.XAA06139 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: Reporters Responsibility Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A > >To all: "finger" can be excecuted from shell. Various systems give >various info, try "finger billb eskimo.com" if you have access to unix >shell. > >We should all be aware that Jim Griggs is apparently NOT currently >lurking. A finger of his account at mindspring.com shows a last login of >8/6/95. > > >.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 >EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ >Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > > > Bill, "finger" doesn't work with some servers. Try fingering somebody at halcyon for example, that you know has logged on today. I think it has something to do with what type of account you have (slip, ppp, or shell). Anyway I went back over my majordomo queries on who was subscribed to Vortex, and he was not subscribed on the 9th, but he was subscribed on the 12th. He must have logged on to do that, unless somebody did it for him. I've tried to subscribe other people myself, but majordomo won't let me. Did you subscribe him? -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Aug 20 00:44:38 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA09754 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 00:43:10 -0700 Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA09735 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 00:43:03 -0700 Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id DAA27204; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 03:42:31 -0400 Date: 20 Aug 95 03:40:28 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Reporters' responsibility Message-ID: <950820074028_100433.1541_BHG45-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Dear All, I should perhaps not have responded so quickly to Michael Huffman's accusations, but I notice that Michael Mandeville stayed up late as well, so maybe I am in good company. I've thought this through, and consider that we (Jed, Gene and I) are behaving perfectly properly in this matter. We have made our agenda perfectly clear - we study and report on cold fusion research and on 'over-unity' machines. If we investigate an 'over-unity' machine, then it is the machine which we put on trial, not its inventor or promoter. If anybody is so foolish as to invest in anything merely on our say-so, then the more fool he. If he conducts his own independent investigation, confirms a positive report from us, and invests - then he is still a fool. Any investor in any company is responsible for finding out whether the company is properly run, and whether the officers or owners of that company are people whom he feels are fit to handle his money. If somebody asked me what my opinion of the company was, then all I would feel qualified to say is that I have no business skills and have made no investigations. If I honestly believed the company to be crooked or about to fold, then I would probably emphasise the obvious - that he check up on the company. By the way, nobody has ever been stupid enough to ask _my_ opinion of a company! Let me try to bring this into perspective by comparing it with something which at first sight will appear utterly ludicrous. It isn't irrelevant, it shows just how completely whacko we are here - discussing 'over-unity' cavitation machines!! What a laugh! A bunch of utter crackpots, by any reasonable standards, are we not? This story is no more and no less crackpotted, it is simply a _different_ breed of crackpottery. A British pop-video man tells the tale that he spoke to an aged American gentleman, and bought a couple of early reels of film of somebody called Elvis Presley, who I believe was a popular singer of some kind. He says that this cameraman said (in effect), "Psst! You wanna buy a film of two aliens being dissected after the flying saucer crashed at Roswell in 1947?" Our hero then spent a long time raising the cash, and triumphantly returned to England, clutching 22 three-minute reels of film - much of which turned out (to his deep chagrin) to be so badly deteriorated that he couldn't rescue it. He showed it to various experts (like pathologists and special effects people) who said it was a real body. But no expert would admit that it wasn't human. It does have a lot of curious external characteristics (like no navel), and nobody has been able to find a syndrome which would fit them. Internally, the body isn't even remotely human (no intestines, no brain convolutions or divisions etc). And there are at least two of these bodies, with the same characteristics. Some SFX people say it is a fake, if done recently. The film is Kodak, and marked with the year of manufacture ('27, '47, or '67), and now an independent photographic expert has found that a section of the film shows the actual type of film - not manufactured after 1956. He considers that the lack of fogging etc means that it was exposed and developed in 1947 or very soon afterwards. I certainly don't suggest these are aliens, probably there are other possibilities. But look what happened. There were balanced and reasonable reports in The Times and The Guardian here. Then The Sunday Times trashed the film, mostly on the grounds that the owner had posters of Bilko and Star Trek on his office wall. Since then, no serious newspaper will touch the story. The owner has been attacked, and his past business dealings have been investigated and attacked in all manner of ways. He is selling copies of the video, with an offer of a full refund if purchasers are dissatisfied with it in any way. The worst attacks have come from the UFO enthusiasts, eg: "I am going to stay on Santilli's tail and show him that I *know* it is a fake. I am going to hound him all the way to the pillory, all the way to the ducking stool, all the way to hell if need be." Scientists have been more restrained, though their talent for fantastical theorising would make dear old Dickie Blue turn green with envy: "Astrophysicists Helmut Lammer from the institute for space in Graz/Austria, and Werner Walter from Cenap in Mannheim/Germany are sceptical about the film. One of Lammers' theories for example is that those aliens are really deformed people used for military tests in experimental spaceships and that the reasons for covering-up are ethical ones." I wonder what his _other_ theories are, and how many he has got? It's like CF. You can wave your arms and talk the most incredible nonsense - and nobody will mind, just so long as you are on the side of 'the angels'. Well, maybe we shall see. TV companies all around the world have paid good money for _bits_ of this film, and Santilli claims they have spent millions between them on trying to get it debunked. It's on TV everywhere on August 28. The point is, I've enjoyed watching _somebody else_ getting hammered for a change. This Santilli clearly had no idea what he was getting himself into. Rationality never enters the debate, it's all innuendo and personal attack, or wild arm-waving. A rational person would simply try to find the most rational explanation; and, if he could find none, would call for more evidence - if he were interested. I'm unashamedly enjoying having no opinion, while watching the fun, listening to axes being ground, and waiting for more expert analysis. Of course, when it's _us_ being trashed, it isn't funny AT ALL [sob]. Or is it? Huffman: "What they don't seem to realize is that by not checking out their sources before they publish their reports, they are indeed publishing heresay and innuendo." Nope. The source and the subject are the machine. We checked that out, nothing else. We published that, and passed on some hearsay _as_ hearsay. "I told Jed and Gene what I knew about Griggs six months or so ago in private. They've had plenty of time to verify it." You told us SOME of it. But why would we waste our precious time doing so? What has it to do with the machine itself? The Griggs patent references the Schaeffer patent, so the authorities had a fair chance to disallow it. They didn't. Even if the Griggs patent were invalid, that would not affect the machine, would it? If Griggs posted regularly on alt.erotica.bestiality.hamster.ducttape, would that be relevant? "When Chris did his fact finding report, it was the same with the addition of the "monk story" which is what tipped me off. This led to a frantic rush to buy the Yusmar and give it a whirl." Sniff. Complete nonsense. Baseless innuendo. You think we bought them because of the _monks_? Sheeesh. "Potopov pocketed everybodies' cash and gave them a dummy device." Maybe. Maybe not. We'll soon see, won't we? "Even if the device eventually proves to be legit, you still know nothing about Potopov." Ah. But we do, you see. As to the next (lengthy) part, we certainly never had anything like this level of detailed accusations. We have them now, but we don't know how much faith to put in them. Judging by your comments on the monks, you do seem to have a knack of misjudging situations, and building too much from too little. I suspect that you have an axe to grind - in fact, I'm pretty certain you have. That doesn't mean you have to be wrong, just that we have to be cautious about accepting what you say. And it is NOT our job to decide on it. That would be a matter for the courts, and we would probably report on the proceedings of any court action. "When Jed and Gene published their report on Griggs it was the same except that they did do a number of calorimetry tests which showed the device that Griggs is selling was overunity. Again, the frantic rush, trusting people invested, Griggs is pocketing the cash." Really? I never realised we had such power over the minds of men. Well, if it's true, and _IF_ Griggs is this monster you claim, then more fool they. In fact, if they invested in the local corner shop (convenience store) without checking on the owner - tough. If they expect us to baby them - tough. "When you guys report positively on a technology that is being offered to the public for sale by a company, you are implicitly giving your endorsement to the product and the company. Your eagerness to "get the scoop" is admirable, but it influences peoples' investment and buying decisions. Money ends up going into the wrong hands. A little bit of research into the company, the inventor, the patent, and a few other things would prevent some of that from happening." See above. "I would like to see IE and the Vortex Group reporting on the honest advancements being made by honest researchers." And you will decide which ones are honest? I can't speak for this group, but our little group will report machines. In-depth psychological, moral or ethical judgements will be left to the redoubtable Ms Winfrey and the rest of them. She has her bag, we have ours. If she comes to St Petersburg, she can get on with the character assessments. I'll concentrate on my meters, I think she'd feel I was just getting in her way. "IE will end up looking like The National Inquirer of the science news world, and that would be a great loss. I happen to like you guys." After some of their CF reports, New Scientist is the undisputed champ of the science news world, with Scientific American gamely bringing up the rear. I'm glad you like us. That's nice of you. "...you really need to look a little deeper before you publish. It literally starts a stampede sometimes..." I wish some of this 'stampede' would come our way sometimes. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike M: "In the last few years we have all learned in various ways how shallow and incomplete and misleading and sometimes flat wrong ALL of the basic reference books and conventions of science and technology." Oh, come along. That just isn't true. Heresy - disciplined heresy - has its place, but it doesn't throw everything out of the window. There's a lot of sense in a lot of your comments, but I will adhere to ancient tradition by only mentioning the ones I disagree with. "Now, journalists also need to understand that they must not hide what they do or do not know." Too clever for me. I have enough trouble knowing anything for certain, I am not going to start hiding what I don't know. Too much of it to hide. "... I like Tinsley's reports." I wish I liked them too, but thank you. (Simper, curtsey - whoops, BOW) "I mean this guy is out there with his butt flapping in the cold wispy breeze ..." Yup. Sounds (and feels) familiar. I'd like to think of myself as the keen-eyed, hawk-nosed explorer type, but somehow it never seems to work out. ------------------------------------------------------------- A pleasant diversion. The trouble is, though - and the reason I've gone to all this trouble - that we've just dropped ourselves into the midden. This board is by no means secret. These accusations will probably be seized on with happy cries by quite a few people we know - as a means of discrediting the entire field of 'cavitation over-unity', and every other kind of o-u, too. If it (or part of it) is to be discredited, then that should be done by meticulous engineering testing. Not by this sort of savage attack. Do you not see that whatever validity there might just be in any of these UFO things (of which I honestly have no opinion) is destroyed (in the eyes of rational folk) by the sort of accusation, counter accusation, and sheer damn foolishness of the self-styled "UFOlogists"? You want to bring us down to _their_ level of debate, while the world laughs loud and long? Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Aug 20 09:41:41 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA21950 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 09:40:18 -0700 Received: from eskimo.com (eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA21935 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 09:40:13 -0700 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id JAA01849; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 09:40:09 -0700 Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 09:40:08 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Mr. Griggs, are you online? In-Reply-To: <199508200646.XAA06139 big.aa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 19 Aug 1995, Michael T. Huffman wrote: > Bill, > "finger" doesn't work with some servers. Try fingering somebody at > halcyon for example, that you know has logged on today. I think it has > something to do with what type of account you have (slip, ppp, or shell). > Anyway I went back over my majordomo queries on who was subscribed to > Vortex, and he was not subscribed on the 9th, but he was subscribed on the > 12th. He must have logged on to do that, unless somebody did it for him. > I've tried to subscribe other people myself, but majordomo won't let me. > Did you subscribe him? -Knuke Yes, see below. After subscribing him (on Aug 11,) I sent that system message to the whole list so everyone would know he was on board. I expected him to introduce himself. He may be listening, though I suspect that he hasn't been using internet. Someone want to give him a call? He should have a chance to respond to Knuke. Mr. Griggs, are you there? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page On 11 Aug 1995, William Beaty wrote: > On 10 Aug 1995, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Bill: > > > > Please add Jim Griggs (griggs mindspring.com) to the Vortex-L list. > > There is probably a way to do this automatically, but I don't recall > > what it would be, and Jim is an Internet neophyte. > > Done! > From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Aug 20 14:20:51 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA29058 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 14:19:22 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA29011 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 14:19:07 -0700 Received: from s1c1p7.aa.net (s1c1p7.aa.net [204.157.220.179]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA17230 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 14:19:03 -0700 Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 14:19:03 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508202119.OAA17230 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: Mr. Griggs, are you online? Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill, I telneted into mindspring.com to look around. I looked for a web page for Hydrodynamics, Inc. under the business section, but found nothing. I looked for a personal page but again turned up zilch. I did find another Web server listed called NY Webb, Inc. that is run by a Garrett Griggs in New York. I telneted into it and found that NY Webb is a web server, and has a link to mindspring.com on it's homepage. This led me to think that maybe I was looking at the wrong Griggs, so I jumped out of Netscape and fired up Procomm to login on my shell account and do a "finger". What I found was that the E-mail address is for a Jim Griggs, and that according to the "finger" server, he had last logged on from CIT1.CITADEL.EDU on Aug. 6, as you said. It said that he had a bash type shell account. There was no information about whether or not he had mail or when the last time was that he read his mail. This is unlike your Eskimo North "finger" server, which gives out that information. When I finger somebody that I just received mail from that has an account at Halcyon, I get the same kind of report as the mindspring server. It gives the name of the user, which type of shell he is using, and the last time he was logged on - no info on mail. The "finger" information is always incorrect. First of all, my friends at Halcyon all have slip accounts only. Halcyon makes you pay more for a shell and a slip account. The "finger" server always reports that the last time they logged in was months ago, and that they used a UNIX shell like bash or Bourne. "Finger" just doesn't work the same with all servers. I did find some interesting and useful things, though, looking at the mindspring web page. First of all there is an outfit called Mettler-Toledo, Inc., which has a thermal analysis home page. They evidently sell calorimeters. Their address is: http://www.mettler-ta.com/home.html The other things were the Dun & Bradstreet Software webpage: http://www.dbsoftware.com/ which I would recommend looking at if you are doing business or reporting on businesses in this country. And last, but not least, Jesus Christ's Eternal Abundant Life, Inc., which I didn't get the web address for, but you can find it listed under MindSpring's Business User Pages. If you think you need any counselling on ethics, you can E-mail the most Rev. Pike or his wife, Sister Betty, and they will be glad to recommend the appropriate sermon tape in a number of languages that they will sell to you. Happy Surfing! -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sun Aug 20 14:27:48 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA00375 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 14:26:23 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA00319 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 14:26:00 -0700 Received: from s1c1p7.aa.net (s1c1p7.aa.net [204.157.220.179]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA17663 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 14:25:44 -0700 Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 14:25:44 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508202125.OAA17663 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: Mr. Griggs, are you online? Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Bill, BTW, CITADEL.EDU is a military college in Charleston, South Carolina. -Knuke From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 02:05:24 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA05632 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 02:05:09 -0700 Received: from hercule.utcluj.ro (hercule.utcluj.ro [141.85.128.253]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA05299 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 02:00:37 -0700 Received: by hercule.utcluj.ro (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0sjlAh-000MR9C; Sat, 19 Aug 95 13:30 EET DST Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 13:30:34 +0300 (EET DST) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Re: Morality, Discoveries and Intelligence. Dear All, It is my pleasure to state my solidarity with Gene, Jed and Chris who have done more than perhaps anybody else for the Truth. Years of work and great sacrifices, continuing stress..I have an inside view of their problems. Therefore I have some comments re. the letters of Knuke re. Griggs (he reports facts and he assumes his responsibility for the data) and Potapov (hypotheses). It wasn't proved that intelligence has survival value, however in some circumstances we have to use it. A problem is arising: what is intelligence? In the frame of my studies on technical creativity and heuristics I have studied the problem and can tell you that intelligence has 200-300 equivalent definitions (definition is a logical manoeuvre and always a simplification). It exists only one completely NEGATIVE definition of intelligence: "Intelligence is the ability of not confounding the points of view" (Mihail Ralea, romanian thinker). The journal is reporting about technological discoveries, achievements, O/U scientific and technological problems, commercial devices. These are relevant. If Griggs has great sins, has made federal crimes or so..this is not relevant. This is a free country (I hope) and anybody can write to the journal or elsewhere and debunk the crooks. Anyway Griggs has a legal patent and the machine works-this is the point of view. When he will enter the presidential election or will apply to the church for sanctification-it will be an other point of view to be considered. This system to search for sins in the life of the citizens is well known to us here and it is not intelligent, not fair (in this context) and is counterproductive. It reminds me Mark Twain's story about his senatorial campaign; and I thought old Joe McCarthy is dead- body and soul alike. Knuke, is the Griggs device o/u or not? Does it work with water, heavy water, oil or with all these? As regarding Potapov-at the time given nobody here can tell with absolute certainty if his deviceS (he has more) are o/u or not, if he has a patent or not (who has access to the Russian patents published 1993-today?). These are problems are important if his model is Ivan Strashnyi and his hobby is to throw cats on the window-is not relevant. Move this subject to morality/sadism/perversion, please. Yours truly, Peter From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 04:23:21 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA15906 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 04:22:45 -0700 Received: from hercule.utcluj.ro (hercule.utcluj.ro [141.85.128.253]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA15788 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 04:21:01 -0700 Received: by hercule.utcluj.ro (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0skUvi-000MRoC; Mon, 21 Aug 95 14:22 EET DST Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 14:22:09 +0300 (EET DST) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Subject: Scenarios and alternative scenarios. Dear All, After my first ad-hoc comments to Knuke's post of Friday re. Potapov and Griggs I consider that this more thorough analysis is necessary. With Scott's and Gene's tests interrupted and Chris travelling to Russia in September, an informational vacuum was created. Based on the principle "The sleep of Reason gives birth to monsters" (see Goya's paintings) this vacuum is filled with Knuke's scenarios. Nothing new under the Sun ( "Nihil novum sub sole" this comes from Vulgata, Eccl. 1,10 being borrowed from Rabbi Akiba, who actually used a Sumerian colloquialism and so on..) In the Romania of Ceausescu such scenarios entered the everyday life. POTAPOV. Knuke, this is a common Russian name composed of seven letters, just as Huffman, it is lack of respect and of self-respect to call him POTOPOV (or Poppycock). You wrote: "When the first report on Potopov from the Chubbs appeared, there was no calorimetry performed, no patent search, no credible reports, no background check on Potopov-nothing-except for Potopov and a few others saying that the device worked. When Chris did fact his finding report, it was the same with the addition of the "monk story" which is what tipped me off. This lead to a frantic rush to buy the Yusmar and give it a whirl. Potopov pocketed everybodies' cash and gave them a dummy device. Everybody that bought one got screwed.(? is this word in accordance to he Nettiquette?). Period. So far, a lot of time, effort, and money has gone into that toilet. If the reporters had done the patent search, background search, and calorimetry, a lot of money would have been saved by the trusting people in the West. even if the device eventually proves to be legit, you still know nothing about Potopov." This scenario is bad firstly because it is in black and white, a product of dualistic thinking which leades to extremism like your sadistic request like "should be horsewhipped); I have considered it a boundary (to pathological) case of the peculiar Huffmans' humor described by you but now I see it's worse. Your scenario: " Poor innocent, pure scientific curiosity driven Westerner nocturn butterflies burning their delicate wings at Potapov's lamp to which they have been attracted by black magic" is, to not say more- a bit simplistic. A basic element, the most potent human pheromone "money" is missing from this picture. Causes are usually preceding effects and Chris's report was published when all the evil Yusmars have been bought. This rush for Yusmars actually wasn't. The "monk story" is a piece of cheap sensationalism, and the unique excuse to publish it that it happened; life is so awfully kitsch-like sometimes! In any case, in your case I have been awaited a more deep impression made by the technical aspects of the device e.g the water/water interface cavitation. Potapov didn't sold dummies, the cavitation tubes where taken from the current production. We have seen hundreds of such tubes in different stages of manufacture as well as assembled in 2nd and 3rd generation setups. The thermogenerator we have seen in actual function was not noisy, so didn't concealed cookie cutters. The money didn't got down that toilet, a lot of know-how data was accumulated, at a regrettably high price.To buy a license or to rediscover the basics is a difficult option. And the data given by Potapov -as much he accepted to give-were not misleading, just not complete. About the patent: I have seen the patent certificate of Moldavian Patent no8/1994, dated Jan.26, 1994 "Apparatus for heating- Heater for water", owner Dr. Y. S. Potapov. All the relevant patents have to be very new, according to Potapov: the first generation of heaters (COP = 150-200%) appeared in 1990, the second (COP = 200-400%) in 1994, the third (COP = up to 1000%), and the 4-th (the "egg" with quasi-infinite COP, in 1995. (appeared = commercialization). Therefore the patents have to be searched for in the national patent libraries of Russia, France, Belarus, Kazahstan, Moldova. I didn't succeeded to do this but: ----------------------------------------------------------------- I am ready to bet with anybody in this group that: a) eventually the Yusmars' patents will be found; b) eventually Potapov's thermogenerators will be proved to be overunity. The stakes, on a fair basis; for a) : my one days salary against his one days salary (income), for b) : my one month salary vs. his one month salary (income). ----------------------------------------------------------------- POTAPOV"S BACKGROUND. Name: Potapov, Yuri Semionovich. Date of birth: July 4, 1943 (kitsch again, can you find a better date for somebody who intends to do business with the US or vice- versa?) Place of birth: Stavropolski Krai (Russia). College studies: in Moldova. B.Sc: Kiev, Institute for Automobile Roads Ph. D. 1983, Agricultural Mechanics Specialty: materials science, metallurgy, thermal treatments of metals, special alloys, welding (in Bucharest I have received a very interesting document describing a new method of welding), coatings, (galvanic and polymeric) electrical wires, non- traditional energy sources as wind energy (I have also seen documents describing his achievements in this field) and the Yusmars. in 1987 Potapov has founded the "VIZIR" company, with the main aim to improve the "operacy" of the Soviet science that is to apply in production the results of scientific research. The name is linked to technical innovation. This was one of the first private scientific-technical companies in the former SU and at its climax was one of the greatest, see please the following technical leaflet (originally in English). ----- VIZIR THE UNION OF SCIENTIFIC-TECHNICAL FIRMS. The aim of the Union of the Scientific-Technical Firms "VIZIR" is to introduce descoverings and technical innovations into production. Our head factory together with its 35 branches (from KIev to Novosibirsk NT) which are situated in a number of cities of the USSR render technical services to different plants and organizations, issues informative cards, shoot technical films and documentaries. Our work is based on the up-to-date conceptions and principles. The firms guarantee the fulfillment of agreements in time. The prices are below the state ones. There are about one thousand highly qualified specialists (more than 200 doctors and candidates of sciences among them) who operatively solve a whole complex of problems linked with the creation of progressive technologies, construction, manufacturing and introduction of modern equipment. New methods of engineer work organizing and application of the most progressive methods of construction permit our firms to serve clients in the shortest terms. There were a lot of cases when the orders were fulfilled 5-19 times quicker than the traditional terms. The "VIZIR"-s services are as follows: elaboration, creation and introduction of samples of a new technics into production on the level of discoverings, inventions and rationalization proposals; work in the sphere of surroundings; elaboration, creation and introduction of automatized working places, automatized book keeping, account of material values; introduction of new technological processes into production and other technical services. "VIZIR" widely enlarges international links. The mixed Soviet-Bulgarian factory "SPS - SMC" and the mixed Soviet-Polish scientific technical firm "VIZIR" - "ZUT" propose: Creation of programme products and automatized systems; selling of licenses; complex delivery of micro computers of the 8th, 16th and 32nd category; marketing and commissional operations, external economic commercial services. -------- A useful initiative in those times when the famous (for its jokes) Radio Erevan has defined scientific research as the satisfaction of personal curiosity by the State's money, the Achilles heel of the Soviet research was the application of the results in the production. Yuri was the president of this great union of firms, when the Soviet Union ceased to exist the company has changed its name in "VIZOR" and has restricted his field of activity. Now, it seems that the new energy devices (Yusmar and the quantum generator) are the most rentable products and a great scale fabrication is rapidly developing. Potapov is "inventor emeritus" of the Moldavian Republic. Potapov's known hobby is classical music, the Yusmar was named in part after Moldavia's famous opera singer Maria Biesu ( a nice lady 60 years old). The couple Ion and Doina Aldea-Teodorovich famous Moldavian singers and unionists (who have died in an accident in Romania in 1993) have been also his friends despite the fact that Yuri is Russian. His help for the church is also well known. Yuri's wife (we hadn't the honor to meet with her) is a medical doctor, one of Kishinev's best known surgeons. He has two sons, one of them is working at the company, the other is at studies in the United States. His preferred drink is Yusmarized milk. This is his "background" tovarisch Knuke! And I forgot to say: he has a great number of enemies as all the great men or bad men (the future will show which was the case!) Later I will send my alternative scenario for Griggs' case too. Just a few technical remarks: I have seen Sonaqua's (Carl Schafer) patent US 3,791,349 (1973) (casually the last time on Potapov's work desk at my first visit) based on the water-hammer effect, its a clumsy solution, technologically something like what the French call "lourdade" a cow-like woman, difficult to manage and dangerous to the material of construction. Griggs' US 5,188,090 is much better and the Yusmar fully respects the well known technical principle "Simplicity wins". As regarding yours, as described in IE no 1: the first thing to do is to use General Electrics' best thermoresistent polymers not just Lexan. The greatest source of worry is , a la prima vista, the fast running bearings. Both for scale-up and for commercialization. Why aren't you phoning to James and settling you personal problems? Very truly yours, Peter  From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 05:57:42 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA25562 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 05:57:40 -0700 Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA25551 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 05:57:36 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzdtb29639; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 08:57:05 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16705; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 08:55:36 -0400 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 08:55:36 -0400 From: mica world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199508211255.AA16705 world.std.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: O/U categorization Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: August 21, 1995 regarding a post from "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" Subject: Scenarios and alternative scenarios. -------------------------- Peter has carried out a nice and informative discussion, but would like to ask a question. I am not a skeptic about cold fusion, but remain unconvinced about the water-flow heaters. Please anyone correct me here if I am wrong, and with a reference to a publication if possible. I suggest, and the next issues of the COLD FUSION TIMES will present and discuss in detail, the following systematized divisions in this field: ==== Over Unity Devices (all classes) ========= 1) Cold Fusion --- means FUSION in the nuclear sense a) Pd D2O b) Ni H2O c) Ni etc. gas d) others 2) Water Flow Heaters -- includes water shock and hammers a) Griggs b) Potapov c) etc. 3) other types a) Shoulders b) others c) MIT anharmonic system (?) ======================================== Is there ANY evidence the water-flow heaters (WFH) are nuclear? There is for cold fusion. This provides a rationale basis to explain the results. Also it is consistent with known science. Is there ANY evidence that corrosion is not involved in the heating of the WFH devices? Having observed some of the devices, I have noted extensive corrosion and possibly of several types. To the best of my knowledge this has not been considered in the calculations. If not considered, and if present, any purported o/u operation is speculative. Also Suggest, that as regards 1) above i.e. COLD FUSION water flow heaters and the coupled rotational devices may include a "BLUE BOOK" attempt or venture to discredit the cold fusion field. It is recommended that anyone interested in this matter read "Continuum Electromechanics" J. Melcher MIT Press or other well known technical basis to discern the difference. Comments? Also, if anyone has a comment on this that they feel is beyond the range of this discussion group, if anyone has not seen the COLD FUSION TIMES and wants a copy, please send me email (with a snailmail address for the latter) about this. Thanks. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 07:18:49 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA07649 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 07:18:45 -0700 Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA07629 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 07:18:39 -0700 Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id KAA24673; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 10:17:54 -0400 Date: 21 Aug 95 10:15:58 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Questions from Mitch Message-ID: <950821141557_72240.1256_EHB104-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: >INTERNET:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Mitch Swartz asks: "Is there ANY evidence the water-flow heaters (WFH) are nuclear?" None that I am aware of. There is evidence that WFL are *not* nuclear. Sapogin says that a heater was run for an extended period with no sign of nuclear products. I do not know if they looked for helium, and I expect it would be difficult to find even if it was there, because it escapes so easily. I am not aware of any technical or scientific reason to believe that WFH and CF devices have anything to do with one another, except for one intuitive yet important point: It seems unlikely that there are many different undiscovered ways to get energy out of water. Perhaps there are! It just seems unlikely. So I feel the two forms of energy must be related, but I have no technical or scientific justification for that feeling. On the other hand, it is much too early to declare that they *cannot* be related. There have been practically no serious, scientific studies of the nuclear aspects of the WFH. "There is for cold fusion. This provides a rationale basis to explain the results. Also it is consistent with known science." Yes? So what? Whether data is consistent with known science or not has no bearing on the validity of that data. We have evidence showing excess heat from WFL. That data can only be challenged by citing a problem in the instruments or mensuration techniques. Theory can never disprove data. "Is there ANY evidence that corrosion is not involved in the heating of the WFH devices?" Yes. Some of the WFH at customer sites have run for such long periods, producing so much heat, that even if the entire machine was made of chemical fuel and it was all consumed, that would still not account for the excess heat. "Having observed some of the devices, I have noted extensive corrosion and possibly of several types. To the best of my knowledge this has not been considered in the calculations." It has been considered very carefully. Griggs experienced a spate of corrosion problems last year. He took steps to eliminate the corrosion, because it severely shortened the service life of the units. The units are designed work continuously in customer sites for months with little maintenance. Significant corrosion must be prevented, or the unit requires so much maintenance it becomes uneconomical. "If not considered, and if present, any purported o/u operation is speculative." What does this mean? O/u operation is not "speculative" -- it is measured with a Dranetz power meter, an Eaton torque meter, thermometers and a weight scale. I think what Mitch meant to say here is: "any purported SOURCE OF o/u operation . . ." Since nobody has speculated as to what the source of the o/u energy is, I do not think this formulation makes much sense either. We can rule out chemical and mechanical sources thanks to the customer site data, but I have no idea what should be ruled in. "Also Suggest, that as regards 1) above i.e. COLD FUSION water flow heaters and the coupled rotational devices may include a 'BLUE BOOK' attempt or venture to discredit the cold fusion field." What ON EARTH does this mean?!? Since I am the person who has written and published the most extensive information on the WFH, I think I deserve to know what the heck this means. The people working on WFH have no connection whatever with the CF scientists. Until I entered the picture the WFH people had no idea that CF existed, so their activity could not possibly be related to "a venture to discredit" it. *My* activity has never had anything to do with such ventures either. I am not sure what this means, but I suggest that the members of this forum should refrain from making statements like this. Let us not get sidetracked by conspiracy theories. I also think that Mike Huffman was also out of line in his comments, but I will not address that issue now. That is such a serious matter that I may choose not comment on it at all in this informal forum, except to say that I agree wholeheartedly with Chris and Peter. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 07:39:11 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA10947 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 07:39:05 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA10914 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 07:38:52 -0700 Received: from s1c1p1.aa.net (s1c1p1.aa.net [204.157.220.173]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA09326 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 07:38:45 -0700 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 07:38:45 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508211438.HAA09326 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: Brown's Gas Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >to all interested in the Brown's Gas > >>are there any electronically available information on Yule Brown or Brown's >Gas? > >P.A.C.E. (Planetary Assoc. for Clean Energy, Ottawa) did some cooperation will >Yull Brown on his welding machines. > >Although not in electronic form I want to give a set of references for own >studies: > >- Anomalous water - explained by Brown's Gas Research >PACE Newsletter, Vol. 6 (4), July 1993, p 11-12 > >- Haley, Daniel. Transmutation of radioactive materials will Brown's Gas > .- 2500% radioactivity reduction >PACE Newsletter, Vol. 6 (4), p 8-9 > >- Yull Brown's Gas - general description >PACE Newsletter, Vol. 6 (4), p 10-11 > >We have a little working group here in Germany and have some small (200 l/h) >machines working; we did ceramic/steel combination, tungsten sublimation and >implosion experiments. > >The flame temperature without any contact to metals or ceramics (in air only) >was measured in California with a thermo-scanning, video-camera to be as less as >140-150 degree Celsius increasing instantly when in contact with other >materials. > > >Wolfram Bahmann >PACE Euro-Secr. Germany > > Thank you for your kind efforts in providing Vortexians with info. This is a subject which is a pet hobby of mine. Within a week I will post my summary technical information on this subject at website: http://www.aa.net/~mwm/brown With you permission, I will also post your info above onto a page. Sincerely, ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 07:48:03 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA12542 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 07:47:58 -0700 Received: from hercule.utcluj.ro (hercule.utcluj.ro [141.85.128.253]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA12393 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 07:46:57 -0700 Received: by hercule.utcluj.ro (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0skY95-000MNiC; Mon, 21 Aug 95 17:48 EET DST Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 17:48:11 +0300 (EET DST) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Re: scenarios, alternative scenarios-2 (Griggs). Dear All, I had the pleasure to discuss with James Griggs at Minsk in May 1994. My impressions are very positive, a serious engineer in search of the solution of a technological miracle. It is possible he have worked at Aqua or Sonaqua, but please "audiatur et altera pars". His technical solution is clearly better than the old water-hammer based method. I think that the literature on management describes a great variety of cases and I suppose that James had one similar to the following from Charles Handy's "The Age of Unreason"- the story of a young engineer: "I came across some gross inefficiencies. I worked out some better options, sent them to the operation manger and waited for his thanks. He sent for me. "How long have you been out here?" he asked. "Six months" I replied. "And how long has this company been successfully doing business here?" "About fifty years, I suppose" "Quite so, fifty-four in fact, and now do you suppose that in six months you know better than the rest of us and our predecessors in fifty-four years? I asked no more questions in the next three years, had no ideas, made no proposals." It is quite probable that he left the company in order to develop his own solutions. It's obvious that the old company's leaders didn't liked it and when got in trouble they found that Griggs is a good scapegoat for their failure. Ask Griggs. You told that Griggs was arrested for some crimes, but was he judged and convicted? If not, the subject is closed. During my career I was accused of idea theft once and for "technical terror" (read 'I asked the people to work') many times and had unending troubles with the Party and the Union. The first case happened in 1962. I was thrown out from the university where I worked as graduate student for the implementation of plastics in the building industry, at the special request of my former professor who declared that I was his everbest student in macromolecular chemistry. I fell victim of a campaign against people with "bad social origin" and had to leave the University. After working three months in three shifts in a macaroni factory (a technology not void of some instructive subtleties especially in the drying section) I moved to a factory with a lot of developing chemical processes, mainly for plasticizers. Because I worked here also as a shift engineer I could observe "those gross inefficiencies". One of them was the following: the reaction vessels produced continually a mixture of organic liquids (higher alcohols) and water. The water was separated manually in a vessel with a sighting glass and discarded to the drains. The proper separation of water was the "sine qua non" condition of a rapid reaction but the people mostly lumpen- proletarians with an X mentality i.e lazy, irresponsible rascals neglected to separate water. I remembered that this problem was actually solved some 300 years before by using a so called "Florentin vessel" developed in the Middle Age Firenze at the manufacture of perfumes. I used the Bible- Perry's Chemical Engineer's Handbook and made all the calculations for the industrial automatic water separators. According to the rules I wrote a so-called 'Innovation' that's an internal patent for a technological novelty at the level of the factory and gave it to the Technical Office. But I was the "class enemy", the Party ( actually three alcoholic semidoct guys) forced a young foreman to copy my proposal and to accuse me that I have stolen his idea. A pleasant surprise, but such things belong to the soul of communism. A type of trial was organized but I convinced the "judges" that I used the proper source and, eventually the young foreman who wept at the trial, and I shared the money for the innovation. I was moved in the section, "Distillation" where great quantities of alcohols were lost due to bad technology, having the bright perspective to be accused for sabotage of the national economy. But I fought for my survival, found the sources of losses and finally was moved in research where I had to work in frame of a technology using hydrogen superoxide. The plant exploded only two month after I have left. In any case it was a good school and today I am an old, bold, (and bald) pilot in matters of patents. I know for example that the statement "can be reproduced by those skilled in the art" is a semantic trap, if you cannot reproduce it, the reason is obvious, you are not sufficiently skilled. I was involved in a second patent theft : Elena Ceausescu's near coworkers have stolen my patent for a plastic used in the manufacture of phonograph discs ( vinyl chloride-vinyl acetate copolymer for which I gathered all the existing data, analyzed tens of samples, and made hundreds of polymerizations. But anybody in the field knew that it is my achievement. Such an experience is gained with work and sacrifices and makes you both knowledgeable and sensitive. Near to the end of a long and interesting career you learn that: "The only things one regrets in the life are the risks not taken". My sympathy and my empathy belongs to James and to Yuri. All the best wishes from Peter! From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 08:14:09 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA17691 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 08:13:57 -0700 Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA17621 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 08:13:35 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzdtk23616; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 11:12:47 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00599; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 11:12:38 -0400 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 11:12:38 -0400 From: mica world.std.com (mitchell swartz) Message-Id: <199508211512.AA00599 world.std.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Comments to Jed and others Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed says: ms="Is there ANY evidence that corrosion is not involved in the heating of the WFH devices?" jed="Some of the WFH at customer sites have run for such long periods, producing so much heat, that even if the entire machine was made of chemical fuel and it was all consumed, that would still not account for the excess heat." ms="Having observed some of the devices, I have noted extensive corrosion and possibly of several types. To the best of my knowledge this has not been considered in the calculations." jed="It has been considered very carefully. Griggs experienced a spate of corrosion problems last year. He took steps to eliminate the corrosion, because it severely shortened the service life of the units. The units are designed work continuously in customer sites for months with little maintenance. Significant corrosion must be prevented, or the unit requires so much maintenance it becomes uneconomical." Given that there were corrosion problems, and given that the rotor shown at MIT had corrosive pitting, and given that corrosion is a source of energy, any demonstration of O/U operation requires adding in the terms, or eliminating such. Dont you think so? "If not considered, and if present, any purported o/u operation is speculative." "What does this mean? O/u operation is not "speculative" -- it is measured with a Dranetz power meter, an Eaton torque meter, thermometers and a weight scale. I think what Mitch meant to say here is: "any purported SOURCE OF o/u operation . . ." Since nobody has speculated as to what the source of the o/u energy is, I do not think this formulation makes much sense either. We can rule out chemical and mechanical sources thanks to the customer site data, but I have no idea what should be ruled in." You are describing means of measuring the output and the input except for corrosion energy. The definition of O/U requires strict terms on input AND output. And we should work to make those very strict including adding in new contributions as we learn of them. Corrosion is input, and corrosion energy (maybe as much as three electrons per ion for aluminum) ought be considered. It has not been in any calculations which I've seen, but that subtends very little of this work. Do you have a calculation including it explicitly as might be inferred when you state "was considered"? Please excuse me if it was posted or published and I missed it. Thanks. Mitchell From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 08:34:26 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA21914 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 08:34:19 -0700 Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA21834 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 08:34:00 -0700 Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id LAA16555; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 11:33:09 -0400 Date: 21 Aug 95 11:29:45 EDT From: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Subject: O-U Categorization Message-ID: <950821152945_76570.2270_HHB102-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortexians: Mitch Swartz has presented a very good categorization of claimed O-U devices. I agree with him that O-U in "cold fusion" systems is completely established -- in the sense that energy releases many orders of magnitude beyond chemical explanation have been demonstrated in CF systems. Also, nuclear products have been observed such as n, T, He-4, He-3, transmuted elements, etc. This gives a strong indication that these processes may indeed be nuclear -- albeit not necessarily literally "fusion." E.g. Hagelsteins' neutron-hopping theory might come into play. On the other hand, there *may* be another more fundamental mechanmism at work in CF -- such as ZPE-tapping -- in which case the nuclear products are the side reaction "detritus." I am open to this possibility, or others, to explain CF. My impression is that Hal Puthoff shares this view, though he has not been explicit. right, Hal? Mitch asks: " Is there ANY evidence the water-flow heaters (WFH) are nuclear?" Answer: Nope! Other than perhaps the energy release, which if extended beyond 20 minute test periods of O-U that have been observed, certainly would be far, far beyond chemistry or "corrosion" phenomenon. The "corrosion" explanation will likely prove to be a completely red herring, but we'll see. There is *functional* performance-based evidence to suggest that the Hydrosonic Pump O/U persists. Mitch says after the corrosion argument: "...Any purported o/u operation is speculative." Answer: No. The O-U has been measured time and time again, and is, in my view, far more certain than CF excess heat was in the *early days* of the CF controversy. The *source* of this excess heat is in question. Mitch writes: "Also Suggest, that as regards 1) above i.e. COLD FUSION water flow heaters and the coupled rotational devices may include a "BLUE BOOK" attempt or venture to discredit the cold fusion field." I strongly disagree. We must search for truth wherever it falls -- as Hal Fox has been doing with both NEN amd FF. The critics will attack ANY AND ALL claims of O-U. I find it amazing -- and appalling -- that mainline CF researchers have shied away first from light water O-U, then from transmutation, then from cavitation devices, and certainly from O-U motors! The transcript of the Japanese FUJI TV program in IE#1 is most revealing. Names are named, Japanese companies are involved in "magnetic motors." These people -- rightly or wrongly -- have put their names to O-U measurements in electrical machines. Bert Werjefelt has seen and measured the effects *shown* on that program, himself. He is currently forging ahead with an O-U motor-generator combination and has provided a *presumptive* explanation of the phenomenon, linking it to theoretical-experimental work of Ramnsey et al in the 1950s. Now there may be more ammunition for the "magic motor" people in recent articles: "Increased voltage phenomenon in a resonance circuit of unconventional magnetic configuration." By Osamu Ide, J. Applied Physics, Vol.77, 1 June 1995, pp.6015-6020. Please note well Ide's affiliation: Clean Energy Laboratory, Natural Group Corporation, Shinagawa, Japan. The finding is of an electromagnetic anomaly in a motor that appears inconsistent with standard theory. Perhaps more provocative is the recently published article by Gerald Pellegrini et al, "Evidence Violating Relativistic Electrodynmics in the Non-radiative (First order in v^2/c^2) Macroscopic Domain," American Journal of Physics, Vol.63, No.8, August 1995, p.694. This shows that all may not be well with electromagnetic theory as written in the texts relied upon by essentially all EE's. Time will tell whether the efforts of "mainline CF people" (an oxymoron?) to explain everything in CF according to standard QM and EM theory will work. It may, but it may not. These are interesting times, to be sure! Best to all -- Gene Eugene F. Mallove, Sc.D., Editor-in-Chief INFINITE ENERGY: Cold Fusion and New Energy Technnology Cold Fusion Technology P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Fax: 603-224-5975 Phone: 603-228-4516 From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 09:29:04 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA03921 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 09:29:01 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA03887 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 09:28:47 -0700 Received: from s1c0p1.aa.net (s1c0p1.aa.net [204.157.220.165]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA17392 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 09:28:43 -0700 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 09:28:43 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199508211628.JAA17392 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: Reporters' responsibility Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > "In the last few years we have all learned in various ways how shallow > and incomplete and misleading and sometimes flat wrong ALL of the basic > reference books and conventions of science and technology." > >Oh, come along. That just isn't true. Heresy - disciplined heresy - has >its place, but it doesn't throw everything out of the window. There's a lot >of sense in a lot of your comments, but I will adhere to ancient tradition >by only mentioning the ones I disagree with. the fastest comeback rabbit out of a hat I have for that is Bill Beatty's page on scientific blunders...check out his web page. I could also expound at great length on the so-called history and archeology of the human species, which I have been studying intensively for the past year (all of my life, actually). And also geology about which I am fairly technically competent about. Suffice it to say in just these three areas of relatively non-controversial evidence, most of the main things "you believe" on "good authority" is just a bunch of myth, much in error, if you are informed by the prevailing consensus viewpoints. I am capable of going up against the planet's most authoritative experts on these subjects and I will win any stand up debate if my opponent is an academic. Physics I have found to seem to be rather the same although I cannot carry the theoretical arguements on my own steam. I am on this board precisely because I hope to acquire some tutoring in the essense of the arguements. > > "Now, journalists also need to understand that they must not hide what > they do or do not know." > >Too clever for me. I have enough trouble knowing anything for certain, I am >not going to start hiding what I don't know. Too much of it to hide. > This comment wasn't directed to you or Gene. More to the mass-media, which in fact does suppress a lot of news, and give the rest a slant, MOST ESPECIALLY IN THE U.S., in favor of its own agendas. One example, just recently I was in Egypt and almost immediately got caught by the locals relating to Egypt as an Arab, middle-eastern country. Boy did my new acquaintances read me the riot act. No way are they a middle-eastern country, NO WAY are they arab. The U.S. media trained me by assocaition to relate Egypt in that fashion. When I returned home the first newspaper I saw (Chicago Tribune) had a headline about Mubarick (sp?) cracking down on Arab terrorists. The editors were reading the international newsfeeds and substituted the word Arab (the U.S.'s favorite whipping boy) for the fundamentalist groups which have infiltrated into Egypt via the Suddan, most likely from IRAN, which everyone should know, but doesnt, is not ARAB. By not understanding these fundamental points, the dynamics of what is happening in the middle east and north africa today cannot at all be grasped. The editors were busy manufacturing "reality" consensus viewpoint and if someone had bothered to challenge them they would have a raft of BS three trainloads long to rationalize what they do. But their rationalization wouldn't change the facts about what they do. The fact is, they perpetuated mythical stereotypes which are grossly in error. This is a long winded way of defending the essence of what Knute was trying to communicate. We all have to be wary of perpetuating myths, especially journalists, because we need you guys too much and have to depend upon you too much. Unfortunately, there is a type of hustler who seems to have a knack for working the journalistic profession, and generally they are able to do so because most journalists are extremely uncomfortable with terms like "atom", "electron", and the like... Which is why we have great hopes for your type of technical journalism...real news as opposed to academic tomes, right on the edge where reality is getting defined, a brash effort to provide coverage of speculative projects and ideas which may or may not see the light of the following day. Now, like you, I don't feel too sorry if people spent money checking some spec out. That's life. And as I intimated, there is a wiff of greed in the scramble to ignore elementary circumspection to be "fustust with the mostust". Odds are, you'll burn your pinkies at least once. I personally like the slower, more cooperative approach of this board. > >If it (or part of it) is to be discredited, then that should be done by >meticulous engineering testing. Not by this sort of savage attack. Do you >not see that whatever validity there might just be in any of these UFO >things (of which I honestly have no opinion) is destroyed (in the eyes of >rational folk) by the sort of accusation, counter accusation, and sheer damn >foolishness of the self-styled "UFOlogists"? You want to bring us down to >_their_ level of debate, while the world laughs loud and long? > Not down to such a level, but controversy, maybe yes, Chris. Controversy is certainly necessary and there are many conventional consensus viewpoints which simply should be savaged in the strongest terms to wake people up, get the blood moving, and prod people to actually, well, THINKING. THAT IS NOT THE SAME THING AS DESCENDING INTO PERSONAL ATTACKS AND HEARSAY RUMORMONGERING. You should not equate my upfront savage on certain ideas as equivalent. BIG DIFFERENCE. Ideas are always fair game. YOU DO EXACTLY THE SAME THING. Your style is just a little more sly than my simple-minded bear-like approach. I shout and growl. You raise questions, very pointy ones, so pointy they become something more... Once upon a time a long time ago I was an infamous student leader at my University. My name was in the student papers everyday for about two years. This was during the heady days of the late 60's and early 70's. Events swirled around and through me, I cannot even remember all of the stuff we did, it is like a blur. I was a master planner activist dealing in events which involved thousands. Suffice it to say, I learned three things relevent to this discussion: (1) Most people people only have a mistaken partial grasp of what is going on in any situation; (2) You can never predict what will set people off in what directions; (3) Anybody in a visable communication role is de facto a leader affecting people's fates and you had better damn well be aware of it. Hopefully this communication bridges some of the discussion gap between Knute and you. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 09:53:01 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA09079 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 09:52:57 -0700 Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA09020 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 09:52:41 -0700 Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA15313; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 12:51:12 -0400 Date: 21 Aug 95 12:49:38 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Comments to Jed and others Message-ID: <950821164937_72240.1256_EHB128-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A To: >INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com "Given that there were corrosion problems, and given that the rotor shown at MIT had corrosive pitting, and given that corrosion is a source of energy, any demonstration of O/U operation requires adding in the terms, or eliminating such. Dont you think so?" No, I just said I do not think so, for the reason I gave: the machines would not work at customer sites if they corroded. Corrosion has not been a problem with most rotors. I saw a rotor that had run for a year. It was worn down, but not I saw no sign of the dramatic destruction seen in the experimental rotors shown at MIT. When Griggs showed them, he pointed out that they are exceptional, and that normal rotors do not disintegrate. "You are describing means of measuring the output and the input except for corrosion energy. The definition of O/U requires strict terms on input AND output. And we should work to make those very strict including adding in new contributions as we learn of them." I rule out corrosion energy. I gave the reasons why. I will not repeat myself, and I remind Mitch that this is not s.p.f., so he should not ask me any more questions about that issue. Let us move on to other topics, unless he has something to add to the discussion. If he disagrees with my analysis, and he thinks the long-term use of the machines at customer sites does not prove they are not dramatically corroding -- okay, let us agree to disagree. In any case, let us move on. "Do you have a calculation including it explicitly as might be inferred when you state 'was considered'? " My statement was not based on a calculation or computation. It was based on an observation about the long term performance of the machines at customer sites. I do not need to perform computations since the potential energy from corrosion must be many orders of magnitude too small to account for the reported performance. As to the veracity of the customer reports . . . I guess all I can says is take it or leave it. In Mitch's previous message there were some weird comments about something called a "BLUE BOOK attempt" and "a venture to discredit cold fusion." As far as I know, a "Blue Book" is a guide to used car resale values, and the only ventures to discredit CF have been masterminded at the DoE, the MIT plasma fusion lab, and CERN (if you want to call Morrison a one-man conspiracy or a master mind). Let me ask Mitch one more time to kindly explain what the hell those comments were about, what they meant, and who they referred to. Either explain, or retract and apologize. Let me repeat: this is *not* s.p.f. If Mitch was to make such comments during ICCF5, he would have been gavelled into silence by the moderator. Vortex-l is an informal physics conference or colloquium, and I ask the members to please abide by the standards of such gatherings. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 11:19:43 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA27716 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 11:19:40 -0700 Received: from oroboros.demon.co.uk (oroboros.demon.co.uk [158.152.100.96]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA27655 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 11:19:21 -0700 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 19:14:25 GMT From: CRSM oroboros.demon.co.uk (Chris Morriss) Message-Id: <4904 oroboros.demon.co.uk> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Questions from Mitch X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10 Lines: 8 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: As no-one appears to have explained what 'BLUE BOOK' means, I suggest an explanation. Could it possibly be refering to the well known and infamous 'Project Blue Book', the US project of the sixties, the purpose of which seems to have been to discredit UFO sightings in the USA. Or am I flying off at a tangent already? -- Chris Morriss From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 12:56:45 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA18136 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 12:56:36 -0700 Received: from eskimo.com (eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA18065 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 12:56:17 -0700 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id MAA07099; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 12:56:00 -0700 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 12:55:59 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: Comments to Jed and others In-Reply-To: <950821164937_72240.1256_EHB128-1 CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 21 Aug 1995, Jed Rothwell wrote: > ...I do not need to perform computations since the potential energy from > corrosion must be many orders of magnitude too small to account for the > reported performance. Jed, might you be reading hostility into Mitch's request for info on corrosion? It sounds to me like plugging in some actual numbers would immediately show whether the corrosion issue is ridiculous or not. Does you or anyone else here know a crude figure for how many grams/month Griggs rotors might lose from corrosion and wear? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 13:26:38 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA24404 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 13:26:36 -0700 Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA24376 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 13:26:29 -0700 Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA15569; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 16:25:06 -0400 Date: 21 Aug 95 16:22:26 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Nature copies art - real quick, too. Message-ID: <950821202226_100433.1541_BHG113-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com I truly don't want to embarrass Mitch, but all this really is too good to be true. I knew effectively nothing about all this stuff like "Blue Book" until very recently - I think both Chris Morriss and I have both held our noses closed and taken a look into the roiling pit that is the world of the "UFOlogist" [sic]. So I quoted some of the stuff that flies about, to hold up a distorted mirror to the field of CF and what-have-you. Sure enough, the two field have 'linked up' in this bizarre manner. UFO people consider that one man's 'evidence' is another man's 'government disinformation'. You can play this game indefinitely, flying (like the famed Oozelum Bird) in ever-decreasing circles until you disappear up your own fundamental orifice. I'm a bit hazy about this "Blue Book", but I think it is supposed by some to be real, by others to be disinformation. My only direct input to the saga of the film, currently being debated as a deliberate attempt by the US government - so brilliant, so Byzantine in its sophistication - to discredit a few nuts, has been to help find a sample of it which got lost crossing the Pond. Screams of "intercepted by the CIA!" were being heard, when in fact it as being mis-handled by TNT Couriers. I tell ya, if those boys had the film, the combined might of the CIA and James Bond himself would never have found it! Look, neither the UK nor US government could handle anything so sophisticated as a conspiracy without tripping over their own silly feet. That has been proven over and over again. What they can do is to do something truly shameful and disgusting, and then cover it up and frighten people into keeping quiet. Like those radiation tests. I believe that no government has tried to conspire against CF. Total nonsense. Some have indeed conspired to crush CF work, specifically the inventors with their paranoid antics and their greed. The Wright brothers and many many inventors have done this - hugged their information to themselves, shooting themselves in the foot to try to hang on to what they have developed. Sure, the US Patent Office hasn't helped, but workers could easily have got UK patents which would have been enforced in the US. The enemies of CF are the scientists and inventors themselves - starting with P&F and working all the way down to Meyer. Shee - eesh. But sanity really is too much to ask, innit? I do note that Griggs, by contrast, is pretty open about his machine. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 13:44:34 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA28044 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 13:44:27 -0700 Received: from GAV.GAT.COM (GAV.GAT.COM [192.5.166.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA27977 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 13:44:08 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: <199508212044.NAA27977 mail.eskimo.com> Received: from [198.133.146.230] by 198.133.146.230 with SMTP; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 13:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 13:44:25 -0800 To: Vortex-L mail.eskimo.com Subject: Chemical Energy Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Re how much chemical energy is there in corrosion? A super-energetic chemical reaction yields less than 0.5 MJ per mole of reactant consumed. Most corrosion yields much less. If there were a reaction that yielded more than this, it would be anomalous energy, by definition. For reference, 0.5 MJ is a bit less than 0.14 kW*h. I corrosion were to contribute 1 kW to Griggs output, then one would have to see about 7 moles/h corroded. This is about 0.4 kg/h for iron (much more if the corrosion yielded less than 0.5 MJ/mole). The machine would probably be out of tolerance and unserviceable in a few hours. Michael J. Schaffer schaffer gav.gat.com Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4146 General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 13:48:56 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA28890 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 13:48:53 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA28865 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 13:48:44 -0700 Received: from net-1-149.eden.com (net-1-101.eden.com [199.171.21.101]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id PAA01407 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 15:48:35 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 15:48:35 -0500 Message-Id: <199508212048.PAA01407 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: back to the rat killing X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gentlemen, let us remain squarely focussed upon our objective, lest we wander into a subjective morass that could begin smelling like s.p.f. 1. Chris, how are you coming with your preparations? Thought of any more potential problems with the tent calorimetry? I haven't...has anyone else? When are you going? 2. Robert and Peter, have either of you had any success in obtaining a commitment from Dr. Potapov to attend the St. Pete. tests? Are you cooperating to ensure that this gets done? The more we hear about the subtleties of Yusmar tuning, the more critical it becomes to have him present. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 14:25:44 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA06676 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 14:25:34 -0700 Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA06658 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 14:25:28 -0700 Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA20822; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 17:23:54 -0400 Date: 21 Aug 95 17:21:15 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Comments to Jed and others Message-ID: <950821212115_72240.1256_EHB130-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: >INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com "Jed, might you be reading hostility into Mitch's request for info on corrosion?" Nope, not a bit. I read a little stubbornness on Mitch's part for ignoring my first response, but we all know he can be a stubborn guy. That can be a big plus in this business. "It sounds to me like plugging in some actual numbers would immediately show whether the corrosion issue is ridiculous or not. Does you or anyone else here know a crude figure for how many grams/month Griggs rotors might lose from corrosion and wear?" I am not capable of plugging in actual numbers, and I see no reason to do it. I was going to suggest that Mitch take a crack at plugging numbers, since he is a crackerjack chemist, but I see Mike Schaffer already did. Thanks Mike! I am no chemist at all, when whenever I plug a number, it comes out the other end. So I'll stick to raw observations and logic: I saw a rotor used for a year that was not decomposed; Griggs reported that *some* rotors were corroding which was a problem, he did not say that *all rotors* corrode. If they did, the machine would be unsaleable. The only numbers I plugged in was the shipping weight of the machine converted to coal. Customers reported 15% excess overall, so I plugged in 10% and figured out that it would not last a year if it was made of coal and it all burned up -- rotor, casing, motor, frame and all. I do not know how much energy you can get out of decomposing an aluminum rotor, but I will bet that it is not as much as you get from burning an equivalent mass of coal. Burning aluminum can cause a powerful explosion, which is why it was used in some WWII bombs, but I do not think it has much power density. By the my reference books say that anthracite coal yields 22.9 x 10^6 BTU per 2000 lb. ton. Small, pure carbon samples in the lab yield 94.1 Kcal/mole (12 grams). - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 15:03:47 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA14108 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 15:03:40 -0700 Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA14024 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 15:03:15 -0700 Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA24494; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 18:01:38 -0400 Date: 21 Aug 95 17:59:07 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Mike M's comments. Message-ID: <950821215906_100433.1541_BHG78-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Jed, You are getting all strident again. Do stop, there's a good chap. Mike, Your comments are worth a proper and lengthy response. Please forgive me if I just respond briefly. I suspect that the 'party line' on archaeology and history is indeed badly flawed. It has always been the case that our perceptions of the past are hopelessly influenced by the current view of man and the world. The same feels to be true of evolution, I still have a problem with one aspect of that (no, I am NOT a creationist!!!!) Physics is a bit different. Its reference books are pretty sound. It MAY be that much about it is fundamentally wrong, and I don't feel happy about some of its basic concepts. Like 'magnetic fields mediated by virtual photons' and all that sort of stuff. As a quick bow, I find the ideas of Hal Puthoff on the ZPF quite irrestistibly attractive and elegant, even if I cannot follow the mathematics. But you just can't trash its experimental results and its reference books in such a cavalier fashion. Yes, I know about your news media. I think we DO have the advantage here, because we have one non-commercial news service which isn't quite so ratings conscious, and which doesn't simply demonise one person or country after another - and the newspapers compete nationally, which helps. But our TV news is often very shallow, and the worst of our press makes yours look like saints. I shouldn't even try to compare one country with another, especially these two, the mistake is to try to do that - when the two are completely alien to one another, despite the superficial similarity of langauge. Well, I think that you are right that I try to stir the pot and delight in controversy. I have to watch that tendency, it isn't always so very clever. Just to be a gadfly without any responsibility for whom I bite is mere self-indulgence. On the recent spat here, I think it is less a matter of cultural difference or any attempt to quench controversy , and more a matter of the inappropriateness to a group of this kind to use it for personal attack. Please, we've all had our (lengthy) say, can we return to business. This is all mere entertainment+ and entertainment-. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 15:44:25 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA21825 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 15:44:21 -0700 Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.7.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA21761 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 15:44:04 -0700 Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id SAA08471; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 18:42:48 -0400 Date: 21 Aug 95 18:41:27 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: I AGREE WITH SCOTT!! Message-ID: <950821224127_100433.1541_BHG82-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: INTERNET:VORTEX-L MAIL.ESKIMO.COM Scott, My last posting crossed with yours. Exactly right, I hope we can put all these diversions behind us now. I am due to leave in the first weekend in September (what's that, the 2nd/3rd?) or maybe on the Monday - depends on flights. Planning to stay about 10 days. Hope to see other things as well as the Yusmar. On tent calorimetry, thanks to all here I have a pretty good idea of how to do it and some very good reasons for hoping not to have to. I don't think the idea is to actually get Potapov to attend at St Pete. In fact, I'm thoroughly hazy about exactly what will happen - except that the matter of instrumentation seems to be fine. I'm hoping not to need a secrecy agreement, I want to help test the damned thing in its ex-factory condition. Maybe Robert can comment here? Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 21 20:07:01 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA09925 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 20:06:58 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA09906 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 20:06:50 -0700 Received: from net-1-188.eden.com (net-1-188.eden.com [199.171.21.188]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id WAA03191 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 22:06:48 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 22:06:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199508220306.WAA03191 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: We want Potapov! X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks, Chris. Good to see that you're plans are solidifying. Robert: Can you please ensure that Dr. Potapov is at least extended a formal invitation to participate in the St. Pete tests? I'd even go so far as to promise him virtually unlimited fame and fortune if he can make the thing work for Chris in St. Pete! If Potapov doesn't show and if Chris' test are negative...where will we be? I would not be surprised at all if Potapov, upon hearing of the tests, says something like, "Of course! That was a standard Yusmar-2 system in as-shipped condition. You have to adjust the bypass orifice after installation in order to get full performance. Did you perform this adjustment?" If Potapov does show, there will be no more excuses...either it works or it doesn't. - Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 09:48:16 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA02542 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:48:11 -0700 Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA02479 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:47:58 -0700 Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA00367; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 12:46:34 -0400 Date: 22 Aug 95 12:45:46 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Subject: We (don't) want Potapov! Message-ID: <950822164546_72240.1256_EHB213-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: >internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Scott Little writes: "I would not be surprised at all if Potapov, upon hearing of the tests, says something like, 'Of course! That was a standard Yusmar-2 system in as-shipped condition. You have to adjust the bypass orifice after installation in order to get full performance. Did you perform this adjustment?' " I too would not be surprised if he says something like that. But I would write him off once and for all if he did. This is a good test. Don't forget that Chris will have 10 days. If it does not work after 2 or 3 days, we will tell Potapov. He can provide telephone tech support, or send someone, or go himself. He will have plenty of time to fix any problem. I think it would be just as well if he stayed away at first. There has been some confusing discussion of a secrecy agreement. I do not think that Potapov or anyone else has asked for an agreement for the upcoming verification tests at St. Petersburg. As far as I know Chris will be at liberty to discuss any aspect of the work. I do not even know if Potapov is aware of the upcoming tests. Another reason I would like to leave Potapov in Kishinev is that I am afraid he might show up on site waving a secrecy agreement. As Chris mentioned, other people working with the machine have said they do not think we will need to resort to the tent calorimetry technique. Let us hope that is true. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 12:08:26 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA00865 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 12:08:18 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA00804 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 12:08:03 -0700 Received: from net-1-205.eden.com (net-1-193.eden.com [199.171.21.193]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id OAA01607 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 14:07:16 -0500 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 14:07:16 -0500 Message-Id: <199508221907.OAA01607 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: no tent? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed sez: >As Chris mentioned, other people working with the machine have said they do >not think we will need to resort to the tent calorimetry technique. Chris, I must have missed something...if not tent calorimetry then what? Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 14:32:59 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA00259 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 14:32:56 -0700 Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.7.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA00240 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 14:32:49 -0700 Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA22892; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 17:31:32 -0400 Date: 22 Aug 95 17:26:51 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Tents Message-ID: <950822212651_100433.1541_BHG87-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Scott, The way I see it, the tent calorimetry IS to be avoided if possible. I think that the problems of air-circulation, thermometer shielding and the floor just make it all pretty horrible. You ask what else, and I would respond by saying that (ideally) I would capture the heat with a barrel of water - like the test Jed did at Hydrodynamics. I'd also try to fit a flow-meter in the radiator circuit and use thermocouples to do a flow calorimetry test - but that has all kinds of problems, especially in a thermostat controlled system. At the bottom line, I will apply all the ideas I have had from here and do the best job possible with whatever I find. If all else fails, I will go for the 'tent'. Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 22 14:52:40 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA04342 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 14:52:37 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA04313 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 14:52:29 -0700 Received: from net-1-205.eden.com (net-1-137.eden.com [199.171.21.137]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id QAA23554 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 16:52:05 -0500 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 16:52:05 -0500 Message-Id: <199508222152.QAA23554 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: OK, Chris but... X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >At the bottom >line, I will apply all the ideas I have had from here and do the best job >possible with whatever I find. If all else fails, I will go for the 'tent'. I expect that you will do fine playing it by ear, Chris. You're certainly capable enough and I trust your judgement to choose the best path depending upon what you find when you get there. Now, I'd like come back to Jed's latest: With Chris making it up as he goes along, it is certainly possible that he will not have any results in 2 or 3 days...that, in fact, it will take him that long just to get ready to do good tests. I am therefore worried about Potapov's response time if we just wait to see if the first tests come out negative. IMHO, it'd be better to have Potapov there from the start, even if he made us sign a secrecy agreement (as long as it didn't prevent Chris from reporting results). We await your response, Robert. Is is practical/possible to invite Potapov to these tests? Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 23 09:06:55 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA11547 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 09:06:49 -0700 Received: from hercule.utcluj.ro (root hercule.utcluj.ro [141.85.128.253]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA11194 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 09:04:38 -0700 Received: by hercule.utcluj.ro (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0slH5a-000MRZC; Wed, 23 Aug 95 17:47 EET DST Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 17:47:33 +0300 (EET DST) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Re: an original, old Potapov test. Dear Friends, I have received from Bucharest the description of an original test of a Yusmar performed in the presence of the author. It is not up-to-date, it is difficultly readable and the result is on the o/u not o/u borderline. However I consider it can be useful for us and especially for Chris, therefore ...here it is: -------------------------------------------------------------- EVALUATION OF C.O.P. for a thermogenerator "YUSMAR-3", experiment and control calculation. The tests have been performed with a thermogenerator "YUSMAR-3" manufactured in accordance with the standard GOST 15009-91. The place of testing: the experimental station of the furniture works of the "Vizprem" company, Kishinev. The tests have been made in the presence of the representants of: Standardization Office of the Republic Moldova, Office of Control in Energetics, Institute of Energetics of the Moldavian Academy, Institute of Research for Hydraulics, Scientific-Technical cooperative "VIZOR", the "Vizprem" Company and the author. The measurements were performed with electrical apparatus K-541 no. 2172 in April 1993. The measurements were performed by the staff of the Institute of Research for Hydraulics with "Agat" type chronometers, thermocouples and control thermometers (see the table). 1. INPUT DATA. 1.1 Table of the temperature measurements. t (minutes) 0 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20 22 24 26 28 T (deg C) 20 22 25 28 30 33 35 38 41 43 46 48 50 53 55 30 32 34 36 38 40 42 44 46 57 59 62 64 67 69 71 74 75 1.2 The technical feature of the system. 1.2.1 The volume of water in the system G = 108 L (kg); 1.2.2 The mass of the metallic parts of the system (except the electric motor) M = 200 kg. 1.2.3. Pump KM-80-50-200 standard GOST 22352-77, pressure 50 m. water, flow 50 cubic m/hour. 1.2.4. Electrical motor: 4AM-112M2U3 Voltage: 380 volts, N = 7.5 kW, rotation = 2920/minute. 1.2.5. Non-isolated surfaces-for thermal transfer F = 1.5 sq.m 1.3 Temperature of water at the start of the test =+ 20 deg C. 1.4 Temperature of water in the system at the end of the test = +71 deg C ( the average of the temperatures measured with the thermometer in the boiler and that measured with the thermocouples) 1.5 Temperature difference between the start and the end of the test T =T2-T1 = 67 -20 = 47 deg C. 1.6. Ambiental temperature at the place of testing T3=+ 10 deg C 1.7. Temperature difference at the metallic construction between the end and the start of the test delta T = delta T =47 deg C for the heat carrier. 1.8. Temperature of heat carrier at the end of the test, T2' = 67 deg C. 1.9.Temperature difference between the heated surfaces of the metallic construction and the ambiental air deltaT2 = (T1 + T2')/2 - T3 = (20 +67)/2 - 10 = 33.5 deg C. 1.10. Specific heat of water c = 1 kcal/kg degC. 1.11. Specific heat of steel c1 = 0.094 kcal/kg degC. 1.12. Heat transfer coefficient of the non-isolated parts of the metallic construction; 9 kcal/sq m.hour degC. 1.13. Time of working of the device t= 46 minutes. 1.14. Average speed of heating of water: delta T/t =47/46 = 1.02 deg/minute. 1.15. Average power consumption of the motor, N used =11.25 kW. 2. DETERMINATION OF THE HEAT PRODUCTION OF THE UNIT. Qtotal = Q1 + Q2 + Q3 + Q4, kWh. where Q1 is the heat taken by the circulating water Q1 =G x deltaT x c =108 x 47 x1 =5076 kcal =5.092 kW. Q2 is the heat delivered by the metallic parts to the environment Q2 =F x deltaT2 x t/60 = 1.5 x 9 x 33.5 x 46/60 = 346.73 kcal = 0.403 kWh. Q3 is the heat absorbed by the metallic parts of the system Q3 = M x c1 x deltaT1 = 200 x 0.094 x 47 = 883.6 kcal =1.028 kWh Q4 is the heat dissipated by the electrical motor. Q4 =15% of Nused xt/60 =15% of 11.25 x 46/60 =1.294 kWh. Q total =5.902 + 0.403 + 1.028 + 1.294 =8.627 kWh 3. THE QUANTITY OF ELECTRICAL ENERGY CONSUMED BY THE DEVICE. Ncons = Nused xt/60 =11.25 x 46/60 = 8.625 kWh 4. C.O.P. OF THE DEVICE. C.O.P. = Qtotal/Ncons x100% =8.627/8.625 x100% =100 %. ---------------------------------------------------------- Obviously this is only one of the many tests to be performed- long range behavior is more relevant. Question: Chris, can you tell what HEAT CONSUMERS will you have at St. Petersburg radiators, coil in a vessel etc? All the best from Peter!  From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 23 09:52:59 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA22294 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 09:52:51 -0700 Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (0 dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA22287 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 09:52:46 -0700 Received: from wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca (wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca [131.136.255.106]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA03604 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 12:47:40 -0400 Message-Id: <199508231647.MAA03604 dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 13:00:24 -0400 To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: wspage ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: On Prevenslik, On tent calorimetry Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Knuke and others, I've been away for the last two weeks (conference + vacation), thus my silence. Surprizing how nice it was to be away for awhile, away from most media and especially away from email ... and I thought I actually liked email - must be some other psychological factor at work here, oh well. Yes. On Prevenslik: You can find the full text of his ICCF5 paper in issue no. 11 of Wayne Greene's "Cold Fusion" newsletter (along with my own ICCF5 contribution). But sorry, I don't have an email address for him. I did, however recently receive by ordinary mail a copy of a new expanded paper on this subject from him. I am was not aware of any publication by Prevenslik called "Sonoluminescence Induced Deuterium Fusion". In fact, my understanding of what he is saying strongly suggests that any form of sonoluminescence is very unlikely to produce fusion. On the other hand, Prevenslik's notion of "Planck Energy" from the theory of black body radiation is largely compatible with the Schwinger/Puthoff notions of energy from the quantum vacuum (a concept that I might say I am very slowly warming to). But Prevenslik is not saying that this is a practical source of energy. Instead, he is interested in explaining the experimental observations of laboratory sonoluminescence which remain very poorly understood. The only practical application that he has considered involves the sterilization of water. On tent calorimetry: Yes, I think this is a good approach, maybe even the only "real" calorimetric method that you might apply to this system "in situ". I would like to add one more alternative to the methods discussed by Mike Schaffer, that is the "null-balance" approach. In this approach one attempts to maintain a constant temperature difference (and hence a constant heat flow) from the inside of the tent to the outside. Include *both* the system under test (the complete Potapov system, motor, device, radiators and all), as well as a reference heat source (a thermostatically controlled electrical resistance heater). Ideally the thermostatic control should be set to maintain a constant temperature *difference* between the inside and the outside of the tent. But this may be impractical and an alternative is to separately thermostatically control *both* the inside temperature and the outside temperature (using an additional heater on the outside of the tent - this could be just the room thermostat, assuming that one exists). The measurement consists of first of all running only the reference heat source inside the tent and noting the average power consumption when the desired equilibrium temperature difference has been approached. Then, with the thermostatically contolled reference heater still operating, start the Potapov system. The heat produced by the Potapov system will add to the reference heat. The thermostatic controller with cut back on the amount of reference heat in order to maintain the temperature difference. Finally, the amount of power produced by the Potapov device can be determined by noting the difference between the average power going to the reference heater before and after starting the Potapov device. All of the things said about fans and IR shielding etc., of course still apply. Also, note that the reference heater must produce at least as much heat as the device under test. These are rather large numbers, so ideally the room in which the tent is housed should really be air conditioned - otherwise you will be forced to work in a rather uncomfortable environment in order to obtain sufficiently high heat transfer rates. Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 23 10:15:05 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA27048 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 10:13:42 -0700 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA26993 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 10:13:30 -0700 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id KAA02779; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 10:13:27 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 10:13:26 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L mail.eskimo.com Subject: Beware: listserve errors Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The eskimo.com MAJORDOMO program has been flaking out recently (fortunately only on other lists.) Be prepared, at any time the darn thing may suddenly send 20 copies of a messsage to everyone. The staff here says they're working on it. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Aug 24 07:53:39 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA26175 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 07:49:27 -0700 Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA26146 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 07:49:11 -0700 Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id KAA25835; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 10:47:44 -0400 Date: 24 Aug 95 10:46:42 EDT From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Modest proposal: reset calendar to 1 A.B Message-ID: <950824144641_72240.1256_EHB169-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: >INTERNET:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com This has nothing to do with excess energy per se. It is an idea that I thought I should share with the members of this forum, even though it is a little off-topic. Considering all the hoopla and hype surrounding the introduction of Windows '95, perhaps it would have been better to reset the calendar. I was beginning to wonder if Windows '95 would be introduced this year, or whether it would have to be renamed Windows '96. I realized this morning that it would have been easier to call it Windows '1, and to call this year 1 A.B. (After Bill). Compared to the PR expenses for lighting up the Empire State Building and buying every copy of the Times of London, resetting the calender would have been a minor expense. It would have impact! Plus, delays no longer matter. You call the product WIN 1 and you reset the calender whenever you finally manage to ship it. I predict that someday, when every single computer, telephone, pocket organizer, wristwatch and Rolodex runs windows, every person on earth will line up the computer stores at midnight, and the next morning we will find the date is 1/1/1 A.B. In Japan, they reset the calendar whenever a new Emperor is installed. That's a handy way to lose track of history and wipe out the past. Nobody can remember exactly when Meiji 36 was, or Taisho 4, or Showa 29 (the year I was born), because the whole business has been reset and we are now at some year in the Reign of Heisei. Microsoft might enjoy that kind of power, so perhaps they will consider my Revised Calender Plan (RCP). I hereby demand royalties! Royalty? Emperor? Hmm. . . there's another idea that Bill might want to consider in the next release. - Jed From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 08:47:26 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA17339 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 08:47:13 -0700 Received: from karloff.lanl.gov (karloff.lanl.gov [128.165.16.190]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA17310 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 08:47:04 -0700 Message-Id: <199508281547.IAA17310 mail.eskimo.com> Received: by karloff.lanl.gov (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA076384820; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 09:47:00 -0600 From: Ron McFee Subject: Re: Problem with Vortex-l mailing list? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 9:47:00 MDT Cc: mcfee lanl.gov In-Reply-To: ; from "William Beaty" at Aug 28, 95 8:21 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > On Mon, 28 Aug 1995, Bill Page wrote: > > > I have not received any comments from the vortex list for the last > > week. Is there some kind of problem? > > > ...or is it the same phenomenon as at parties, when everyone stops > talking at the same time? > > .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. > William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 > EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ > Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > Maybe we are the only ones who have not signed non-disclosure agreements? Regards, Ron From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 19:07:31 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA28316 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 19:07:23 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA28145 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 19:06:18 -0700 Received: from net-1-136.eden.com (net-2-104.eden.com [204.177.170.104]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id VAA19577 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 21:05:41 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 21:05:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199508290205.VAA19577 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: null balance calorimetry X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I'm still here, too.... Bill Page: You suggested null-balance calorimetry. I have been thinking about this for some time, now and I'd like to discuss the pros and cons with you. Let's call null-balance calorimetry "NB"...and the other method, where the temperature in the chamber just rises until equilibrium is established "NL" (for Newton's Law of Cooling). Here are some points that come immediately to mind: (Everyone else should feel free to comment as well) pros: 1. In an NB system, the temperature inside the experiment chamber is constant. This means delta-T across the chamber walls is a constant as well (assuming the outside temp is constant). This would, for example, make convection currents more-or-less constant which would be an advantage over an NL system. 2. ? cons: 1. An automatic control (i.e. thermostat) is required for the heater. The "reading" from a calorimeter of this type is, in fact, an inverse function of the output of this controller: the higher the heater power, the lower the power from the DUT (device under test). For stability equivalent to an NL system, this controller must be well-tuned so it keeps the heater power adjusted properly without oscillation or undue error. 2. The source of the heat is not always in the same place (some of it comes from the DUT and the rest comes from a controlled heater) so there is the opportunity for "location errors". In the case of a NL system, one could largely eliminate location errors during calibration by _replacing_ the DUT with the calibration heater. - Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Aug 29 09:06:16 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA27150 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:05:49 -0700 Received: from GAV.GAT.COM (GAV.GAT.COM [192.5.166.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA27131 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:05:39 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: <199508291605.JAA27131 mail.eskimo.com> Received: from [198.133.146.230] by 198.133.146.230 with SMTP; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 9:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:06:08 -0800 To: vortex-L mail.eskimo.com Subject: Null Balance Calorimetry Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have some experience with null balance calorimetry, which I share here. Another advantage of null balance calorimetry is that it has faster time response to changes in the device under test (DUT) thermal output, because the thermal mass of the system only has to change temperature by typically a small fraction of a degree for the complementary heater to begin compensating. In Newton's law calorimetry one has to wait until the system has reached a new equilibrium, or else operate on the data mathematically (deconvolve) to get the detailed temporal history of the DUT. A disadvantage is that the complementary heater power fluctuates greatly, ie. it has a lot of high frequency noise. This must be filtered out, not only from the recorded signal, but also from the heater power circuit. I had an experience where the noise was so large that the noise power, (I_noise)^2 R_heater, was more than 10% of the "DC" power, which adversely affected measurement accuracy. When properly implemented, the null balance method is independent of the details of heat loss. The complementary heater must be close to the DUT. The convection must mix (add) the heat from the DUT and the complementary heater, and the temperature sensor must measure this mixed stream under all operating circumstances. The constant temperature operation helps to keep the convective pattern independent of DUT power. (In a Newton's law system I have seen the convection pattern change with power, a perfectly normal occurrence in turbulent flow, and the calibration constant change as a consequence.) I prefer forced convection and mixing. In all systems, one must calibrate the system under conditions as near as possible to operating conditions and verify that the operation is stable. Feedback can be tricky. The time delay between sensing a temperature change and bringing it back to the set point can be fairly large, despite what I said above about fast time response. This delay can cause instability and temperature oscillation. I found it necessary to measure the time response of my system and then add the correct amount of phase lead to my feedback loop. All this is standard control system feedback stuff, but you need to know it. Actually, the textbook theory is for linear systems, whereas a resistance heater is nonlinear (heat is proportional to I^2, not just to I), but the concepts and formulas are still useful if one limits the range of heater current variation to about 2.5:1. All this might sound daunting, but in Yusmar tests the response times are many seconds and the heater power is conveniently varied by a variable autotransformer ("Variac" or "Powerstat"). Then the logical control unit is a human brain (state of the art neural network!). Michael J. Schaffer schaffer gav.gat.com Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4146 General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Aug 28 07:45:16 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA04456 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 07:44:27 -0700 Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (0 dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA04414; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 07:44:16 -0700 Received: from wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca (wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca [131.136.255.106]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA04291; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 10:39:00 -0400 Message-Id: <199508281439.KAA04291 dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 10:51:59 -0400 To: billb eskimo.com, vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: wspage ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: Problem with Vortex-l mailing list? Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A I have not received any comments from the vortex list for the last week. Is there some kind of problem? Thanks, Bill Page. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Sep 8 05:22:53 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA24354 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 8 Sep 1995 05:21:32 -0700 Received: from hercule.utcluj.ro (root [141.85.128.247]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA24199 for ; Fri, 8 Sep 1995 05:20:08 -0700 Received: by hercule.utcluj.ro (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0sqKEh-000MX9C; Wed, 6 Sep 95 16:09 EET DST Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 16:09:50 +0300 (EET DST) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Friends, Despite my chronic difficulties with the e-mail, I try to continue the bibliography on "catalytically and cavitationally stimulated cooperative energetical phenomena". This time, it's my pleasure to inform you about the publication of a book dedicated, just as this discussion group, to Vortices. I have found it in Current Contents, Eng, Comput and Tech Issue 36/ 04 Sep 1995. BIBLIOGRAPHY-2. The article of main interest is: Author REA Arndt Title Vortex cavitation. Source Fluid Vortices (Series: Fluid Mechanics and Its Applications 30 (1995)) Page(s) 731-782 TGA No. BD42S Discipl. *Current Books Contents* Document Article Address REA Arndt, Univ Minnesota, St Anthony Falls Hydraul Lab Minneapolis, MN 55414 USA Editor SI Green ISBN/ISSN 0-7923-3376-4 Publisher Kluwer Academic publ, PO Box 17, 3300 AA Dordrecht, Netherlands Possible contact persons in Minneapolis : Prof.Richard Oriani Mr. David Moon Mr. D. Rotegard It could be very interesting to discuss with the author about the Griggs, Potapov, Huffman devices. INTERNET, what miracles can you do? The book comprises 19 papers: SI Green: Introduction to vorticity 1-34 MR Lesieur Mixing layer vortices 35-63 FF Grinstein, MN Glauser, WK George Vorticity in jets 65-94 TT Lim TB Nickels Vortex rings 95-153 CHK Williamson Vortex dynamics in the wake of a cylinder 155-234 CR Smith JDA Walker Turbulent wall-layer vortices 235-290 D Bershader Compressible vortices 291-316 RL Ash MR Khorrami Vortex stability 317-372 W Althaus C Brucker M Weimer Breakdown of slender vortices 373-426 SI Green Wing type vortices 427-470 IA Waitz et al Vortices in aero-propulsion systems 471-532 RD Blevins Vortex-structure interaction 533-574 GE Swaters Mathematical modelling of solitary oceanographic vortices 575-616 RA Pielke et al Atmospheric vortices 617-650 E Meiburg Three-dimensional vortex dynamics simulations 651-685 EP Rood Vorticity interactions with a free surface 687-730 REA Arndt Vortex cavitation !!!!! 731-782 ! GL Chahine Bubble interactions with vortices 783-828 CT Crowe TR Troutt JN Chung Particle interactions with vortices 829-861. ................................................................ Quite a book! All the best wishes from Peter! From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Sep 16 03:06:47 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA17369 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 16 Sep 1995 03:06:05 -0700 Received: from hercule.utcluj.ro (root [141.85.128.247]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA17261 for ; Sat, 16 Sep 1995 03:04:58 -0700 Received: by hercule.utcluj.ro (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0stu6z-000MXAC; Sat, 16 Sep 95 13:04 EET DST Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 13:04:40 +0300 (EET DST) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Chris, Welcome home and in the circle of the Vortex Brothers! Thank you for a good job and for the systematic preliminary report. This raises a lot of 'natural questions': For 2a.-Is the new Yusmar tube different from those we bought at Kishinev? I'm thinking about that strange "cookie cutters". For 2b.-Again, is this "Technical Passport" more complete than that received at Potapov and translated by me? For 2c.-When was this 'Energiya' document written? At Sept 7 I have received a fax from Yuri telling that during his recent visit (July/August) at Energiya they "succeeded to control such 'whimsical' indicators as o/u between 3.0 and 10.0". Yuri claimed they have an official document, signed by the deputy chief constructor of the concern and five university professors. This document is not public because it comprises know-how data. I have requested a non-technical variant of it. For 2f- Is the 'vortex heat separation device' the same we have seen in Potapov's office stated to be one of the technical ancestors of the Yusmars? It has to be a very efficient device with no moving parts, a darling of the chemical engineers. For 2h.- This diplomatic formulation is over my head, what is Potapov and what is he not? Special thanks for the info re. the Potapov patents. I can help in finding them: a) I have a friend at the European Patent Office, Mr. Hubert Fuchs, patent examiner; the address is D-10958 Berlin, Fax 030/25901-840, Phone 030/25901-0. They have a good library. You can call directly or please tell me the patent nos. b) The patents can be found as 1/4-1/2 page abstracts in a publication called Izobreteniya, it is the Russian equivalent of the Official Gazette from the USA. We have it in Bucharest and with the help of Paul from Chiminformdata the group can have it translated in 24 hours. It seems that this story will continue, n'est pas? Thank you once again! Peter From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Sep 18 07:38:24 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA27936 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 07:38:10 -0700 Received: from dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (0 dgs.drenet.dnd.ca [192.12.98.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA27862 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 07:37:52 -0700 Received: from wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca (wspage.nccts.drenet.dnd.ca [131.136.255.106]) by dgs.drenet.dnd.ca (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA21176 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:32:10 -0400 Message-Id: <199509181432.KAA21176 dgs.drenet.dnd.ca> X-Sender: wspage dgs.drenet.dnd.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:46:09 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: wspage ncs.dnd.ca (Bill Page) Subject: Re: St Petersburg trip Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris wrote: >I have to apologise for not being in a position to produce a proper >report. I hope to do better on Monday, my next 48 hours are completely >jammed. I am looking forward to it. [...] > >2. OK, so what have I come back with? > >a. We have a Yusmar-1 (basic tube only) which is ex-demonstration. >This has been certified good, it was obtained from a Moscow company >which has been in association with Potapov. This company reports many >satisfied customers of Yusmar machines, and will doubtless be able to >render technical assistance in the event of a null result. Did you see this machine in operation? Can you give us an idea of its configuration, heat exchange system, etc.? Did it look like any of the photographs you brought back last time? > >b. We now have a copy of the "Technical Passport" (this courtesy of Dr >Smirnov of the University at St Petersburg). This gives full details >of exactly what you have to do to a Yusmar to make it sing. >Supposedly. This sounds ominously sceptical... Did you hear the above mentioned Yushmar-1 sing? Actually, I mean this rather literally. Did you notice any particular sound while it was in operation? > >c. We have a signed document from Energiya, who are the manufacturing >arm of the Russian space programme. This confirms the o-u performance >of the machine (a Y-2 as I recall) as 1.6 - 1.95. The existence of >this (non-technical) report would appear to confirm the stories we have >heard about Yusmars being in routine use at Star City. Further rumours >now suggest the possible intent of using Yusmar derivatives on the Mir >orbital platform. Well to me, these "rumours" sound like rather typical sales-hype! It seems just like an appeal to an authority whose credibility the typical purchasers are not able to question. It makes me nervous that the seller may well have something he is trying to hide. Of course, I am willing to be shown that I am wrong about this. > >d. Work is underway to apply the tent-null-balance techique (*THANK >YOU*, Bill Page for your excellent summary, which was of very great >help). This work will be done at the prestigious Polsunov Institute at >St Petersburg, under the supervision of Dr Fedorovich, who is Professor >of Nuclear Engineering and Thermophysics at St Petersburg State >Technical University. > [...} You are welcome, and I am very glad that a decision was made to attempt to do an accurate independent measurement of the device. > [...] > >f. I was also able to see a demonstration of the vortex 'heat >separation' device for use with (for example) natural gas pipelines. >The largest unit I saw was rated at 10tonne/hr production of liquid >petroleum gas from such a line. What has this 'heat separation' device got to do with the Yushmar device. 'heat separation' sounds very much like 'heat pump' and as such a Yushmar-like device that simply functioned as a heat pump would not be very surprizing given its similarity to the well-konwn Hilsch-tube. If the Yushmar is a heat pump, it might still have interesting industrial applications, but it would not be a revolutionary energy source. Presumably this 'heat separation' device assists in cooling the LPG to help reduce pipeline pressures. Is this correct? Or does it actually liguify the gas as your above statement suggests? The little I understand about LPG, suggests to me that it would usually be liquified using ordinary compression at high pressures and standard cooling techniques. I'd like to hear more about this. > [...] > >i. One of the more interesting proposals from the Polsunov Institute >is to wrap the resistive heating coil around the actual barrel of the >Yusmar - an idea which I feel is very attractive. Well, the objective should be to try to maintain the same configuration of heated surfaces during the two modes of operation. If the barrel of the Yusmar is what gets hottest, then what you suggest is probably a good approach. On the other hand, if there is some sort of heat exchange unit attached to the Yusmar, then maybe attaching the resistive heating coils to the heat exchanger might be a good idea. I have also wondered whether it would be desireable to arrange for a very small pump in parallel with the main Yusmar pump which would maintain a low rate of fluid flow (to small to generate any excess) but which would ensure a more uniform temperature in the Yushmar apparatus during the times when it is not generating excess heat (i.e. not running). > The whole notion of >the null-balance-tent calorimetry was adopted with considerable >approval by these engineers. Such problems as losses through the floor >are being accommodated by supporting the tent on a few thermal >insulators at a height of about 1m from the floor, and the temperature I have argued here in your abscence, Chris, that this may not have been necessary. But I take it from you description, that an air space was left beneath the new floor of the tent and the actual floor of the room. This arrangement sound good to me. >stability of the surrounding room by the simple expedient of installing >the tent in the old prison building which now forms part of the >buildings of the Institute. I don't quite recall the thickness of >these old walls, but I think it is approximately 2m. This provides an >excellent controlled environment, having high stability throughout the >year - let alone through the day and night. I am sure they will monitor the room temperature anyway, right? > >That's all for now. Should the tests prove positive, or a negative >result can be corrected by liaison between Moscow and St Petersburg, >there is the possibility of my returning to that latter city in about >one month. I would say that I would accept the calorimetry of the >Polsunov institute without question. I did leave them my highly >accurate power meter, which is certified against national standards, >and also one of my thermometers, which they will also use to establish >correlation with their own instruments. They will, of course, be >monitoring the temperature at 12 points inside and outside the tent, >and will be using disc-type wattmeters to log power. When do you expect to hear the results of the tests? > >Please query points which require particular clarification. > Thanks a million for your preliminary report! Cheers, Bill Page. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Sep 18 10:54:09 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA01393 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:53:30 -0700 Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA01256 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:53:04 -0700 Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id NAA24507; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 13:51:46 -0400 Date: 18 Sep 95 13:48:08 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Bill's queries re Sankt Peterburg Message-ID: <950918174808_100433.1541_BHG107-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Dear Bill, I seem to be slipping my schedule, that preliminary report grew a bit and I think that a fuller one will have to be based on a rewrite following answers to queries like yours. The urgency at present now that I've surfaced from family matters is to get copies of my documentation off for translation, get films developed and mailed, and do a few jobs for Volodya. I'll answer all queries I get within a few hours - or try to. "Did you see this machine in operation? Can you give us an idea of its configuration, heat exchange system, etc.? Did it look like any of the photographs you brought back last time?" No. As I said, it was the basic tube only. The actual tube looks exactly like the ones shipped to Gene Mallove from Moldova - no "cookie cutters" or anything like that. "b. We now have a copy of the "Technical Passport" (this courtesy of Dr Smirnov of the University at St Petersburg). This gives full details of exactly what you have to do to a Yusmar to make it sing. Supposedly." "This sounds ominously sceptical... Did you hear the above mentioned Yushmar-1 sing? Actually, I mean this rather literally. Did you notice any particular sound while it was in operation?" There's nothing ominous about my scepticism. I just swing along the belief curve, never reaching 0% or 100% either. Just as well I've never had to sit on a jury, I'm like this about everything. At present my belief level is rather higher on this than it has been. No, the only machine I ever heard (in Moldova) made no noise. Maybe a slight noise of water moving at speed. As to rumours about the machines being used in the Russian space programme, I'm quite happy to believe them. That is because the space programme is where we first heard about the machines, because several people have said they are in use (for heating living space) in Star City, and now we have the report signed off by a deputy director of a branch of Energiya. As to the Mir, I dunno - personally I doubt this very much. The 'report from Energiya' was just another rumour until I had a copy. Trouble is, I suspect that there is another report from them, with the full technical details. I don't have that (if it exists). However, our Russian friends (the ones who are paying the Polsunov Institute for the actual testing!) do have contacts with former colleagues in Energiya, and hope to find out much more detail. "What has this 'heat separation' device got to do with the Yushmar device. 'heat separation' sounds very much like 'heat pump' and as such a Yushmar-like device that simply functioned as a heat pump would not be very surprizing given its similarity to the well-konwn Hilsch-tube. If the Yushmar is a heat pump, it might still have interesting industrial applications, but it would not be a revolutionary energy source. "Presumably this 'heat separation' device assists in cooling the LPG to help reduce pipeline pressures. Is this correct? Or does it actually liguify the gas as your above statement suggests? The little I understand about LPG, suggests to me that it would usually be liquified using ordinary compression at high pressures and standard cooling techniques. "I'd like to hear more about this." Ah, Bill, you'd have loved this. I was taken to the University, and shown the whole thing - it was superb, it really was. The device is a T-shaped thing, with the central bar being the feed from the pipeline, with cold gas coming out of one side of the T and hot gas out of the other. Yes, it is nothing to do with the Yusmar, it is just one of those vortex gadgets. But it is one thing to hear the story, quite another to see the thing working. In fact, the only one I actually saw working was run from compressed air into the central line of the T, and coming out through hoses. The temperature difference between the hot and cold side (I watched the monitors) was 80deg C. One exit pipe was thick with frost, the other side was quite hot. I also saw the big stainless-steel version, which they all said would liquefy 10 tonnes/hr from a natural gas pipeline of 40bar. Yes, they said it does liquefy the gas, and I believe them. Of course, the other line would supply nice hot gas for the power station or whatever. Frankly, it is a truly attractive system - just to *engineer* the vortex heat separation effect into practicality, producing a machine with exactly zero moving parts or controls of any kind, which just sits there and works. I asked about the thermodynamic efficiency, they said it was only 75% - but who the hell cares if all the energy comes from the gas pressure drop as you tap the pipeline? I suggested to them that they try to sell the machine in the West. They have full patent coverage. If the Yusmar is anything, then it is an o-u machine. This is a completely separate issue. I think! Your comments on placement of the electrical heaters noted with interest. At present, the configuration of any radiators is not fixed. It was because of the comments on floors which I saw on my return that I mentioned the elevated tent idea. The people at Polsunov had exactly that same discussion in front of me, and opted for the raised tent. They felt that the thermal mass of the floor was just too much ovA risk, so they opted for the raised config. Of course they are going to monitor the room, with quite a number of thermometers strategically placed. They estimate three weeks for assembly and test. Regards, Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Sep 18 10:54:09 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA01402 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:53:32 -0700 Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA01320 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:53:13 -0700 Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id NAA24561; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 13:51:56 -0400 Date: 18 Sep 95 13:49:00 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: , Subject: Another matter of possible interest Message-ID: <950918174859_100433.1541_BHG107-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com;internet:onoochin@phtb.spb.su Dear All, This may be off-topic, but I should like to raise the matter of Dr Onoochin's work on LEWs - longitudinal electromagnetic waves (I kept spelling his name wrongly, it is Onoochin, with each 'o' sounded separately). This is an excerpt from a message I just received from him. Minor editing changes by me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now I would like to explain to you some details of the LEW papers. I will try to avoid mathematical terms and to be as close as possible to engineering approach. Ha! He knows I can't do the mathematics! As I told before, my paper published at MPLB, v7, p1111, (Modern Physics Letters B) is a basis of all other works. Although the problem considered in the paper is called the one of the large polaron, really it is a problem of a nonrelativistic particle interacting with the field of oscillators. So it attracted the attention of many nuclear physicists (Lee and Low, for example) who hoped to describe, based on the solution of the above problem, the simplest fusion reaction. Firstly I was going to apply my method to the problem of a single electron in an EM field, i.e. is it possible to describe the electron as a stable particle in frame of EM forces only? As I said, I obtained the conditions for such a possibility. However, although the mathematical expressions were correct, the physical sense of that seemed like something crazy - because in my model of the electron there are strange things in the core of the electron: either we would have reversion of time at that area of space, or the energy of the field oscillators inside that area continuously disappear and appear again at the same point where it disappeared. Because I don't know (until now) how such a thing can occur I stopped my studying in that direction. However, as one of the additional results of it, I found that there is a possibility for the longitudinal EM waves (LEW) to exist. Since the LEW can be used to transmit information I with Robert started to work in this project. The physical cause for the LEW to exist is a mutual noncompensation of the scalar and the longitudinal photons and it is described in the first paper on the LEW. To my point of view, it is very strange why the LEW have not been found before. It seems that the physics establishment doesn't want to seek these waves. I give one example. Every physicist knows that the EM waves are the ones for the transversal electric field E. Therefore, if such waves really exist one can write the wave equation for them. However, it is IMPOSSIBLE to write the wave equation ONLY for the transversal component of the electric field. I can give some more examples, however, it isn't important this time. The essential point of our (my and Robert's) concept is in that the LEW are created by the potentials, besides the latter are real physical quantities (it is in full contradiction with the concept of the conventional electrodynamics). To prove it, in the third paper an experiment is proposed for direct detection of the vector potential in the classical electrodynamics. The experiment is arranged in such a way that either we detect the vector potential or we detect deviation of the law of the energy conservation. Of course, there is possible third way, i.e. changing the Maxwell equations. However, that is comparable to breaking of the law of the energy conservation so it isn't a real one. Now I would like to write perharps the most interesting point, namely, how the results of this paper are linked with OU. As you remember, you told me that OU has been observed at Graneau experiments when the current of high voltage passes through the water. I try to give a theoretical explanation of this effect. One can derive from the results of third paper that there are four forces of magnetic nature: Lorentz one, the force displaying in the experiment with solenoid and two longitudinal magnetic forces (one of them corresponds to Ampere force). (Actually, I didn't say that the Graneau water-arc experiments were *confirmed* OU, just that the experiments were highly suggestive of an OU effect) Because of their longitudinal nature, these forces could cause OU. The main obstacle preventing nuclear reaction between two nuclei of hydrogen is Coulomb or electrostatic force of longitudinal nature. So the longitudinal magnetic force can partly compensate the electrostatic one. Of course, we have to find the appropriate conditions for such a compensation. As I remember, longitudinal or Ampere force should rapidly increase with increasing the current creating that force. Anyway, it would be interesting to analyze Graneau experiments especially if OU energy extractes there. So we can estimate possibility of OU in the water due to the above forces. Please, answer me is my above consideration worth for the researches of yours group. Also could you connect with Drs.Graneau and to know the details of their experiment where OU has been detected. Obviously I am not competent to judge this work. My reaction to it is to suggest that Dr Onoochin appears to have found an anomaly in the mathematics of electromagnetism, and seems to be on *three* horns of a "trilemma" - either to reject Maxwell, to accept time-reversal within the electron, or accept the existence of LEWs. In such a situation, I applaud his plan to conduct experiments to attempt to detect such waves. On the "theoretician versus experimentalist" argument, my feeling is that new theories are of enormous value if they lead to new experiments. Regrettably, the theoreticians (in general) are highly reluctant to accept that the opposite might also be true. I am waiting for your message. With warm regards, Volodya --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Regards, Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Sep 18 16:14:55 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA14290 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 11:41:37 -0700 Received: from GAV.GAT.COM (GAV.GAT.COM [192.5.166.11]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA14210 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 11:41:17 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: <199509181841.LAA14210 mail.eskimo.com> Received: from [198.133.146.230] by 198.133.146.230 with SMTP; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 11:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 11:41:51 -0800 To: Vortex-L mail.eskimo.com Subject: Longitudinal EM Waves Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Just a brief comment on longitudinal electromagnetic (EM) waves: I am not familiar with Onoochin's theory, and I probably wouldn't understand it anyway. However, I both worked with and taught a course on antennas, waveguides and such early in my career, and I would like to point out that it is WELL KNOWN that real EM waves are not purely transverse but actually have a longitudinal component as well. Near an antenna, an accelerated electron or other charged particle, and in waveguides the longitudinal components are large and cannot be neglected. Far enough from an antenna or particle and in certain wave guides, such as ideal coaxial cable, the longitudinal component has decayed to such low levels that it is customarily neglected. In our context, Onoochin seems to be concerned with the longitudinal component very near the source (electron or other charged particle), where the longitudinal component is large. I'll let the theorists sort it out from here. Michael J. Schaffer schaffer gav.gat.com Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4146 General Atomics, PO Box 85606, San Diego CA 92186-9784, USA From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Sep 20 05:04:05 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA24574 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 05:03:27 -0700 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA24548 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 05:03:18 -0700 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id FAA07827; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 05:03:17 -0700 Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 05:03:17 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Institute for Free Energy Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris, might you want to contact this group while you're there? Or have you left yet? THE INSTITUTE FOR FREE ENERGY International MegaScience Academy P.O.Box 37, 193024, St.-Petersburg, Russia alex frolov.spb.su Dear Sirs, I'm glad to inform you about creation of The Institute for Free Energy. It is non-professinal organization outside of state Russia Academy. It is the subdivision of International MegaScience Academy, JSC, placed in Petrozavodsk, Karelian Republic of Russia. Structure of Academy: Head office of IMSA: Russia, 185031, Republic of Karelia, Petrozavodsk, Moscow's str.,13-6. President of IMSA Mr. Victor M. Jurkin. Representation of IMSA are placed in Moscow, St.-Petersburg, Kiev, Tumen. Main activity in next directions: system optimization of infrastructures, energetics, ecology, international megascience and educational activity, realization of unified theory of World. Mission of MegaScience is optimization and correction of world science according to Laws of Natural Correctness. Glogal Ecology. Transfer of Humanity to Space Mentality. Business activity of IMSA: international trade in high-technology, in "know-how" and patents, science conferences, introduction of new technologies. The Institute for Free Energy is placed in St.-Petersburg, Russia. Our activity have the goal to develop direct contacts between inventors and customers, both theoretists and experimantalists. Our interests are the next: 1. Discussion about over-unit systems, Free energy systems, Systems producing work and creating power in load without any mass-fuel. ( About space-time utilization as fuel look in next point.) Perpetuum mobile. Zero-point fluctuations as free energy source. In general words, discussion about possibility to create Power from Energy, from potential energy, from time flow energy. How to change the form of Energy to create the Power in load without loss for primary source of energy. Systems with permanent magnets and electrostatical systems for over-unit application. 2. Gravity. Local space-time curvature ( space curvature and time rate in local system these are different from planet space-time system ). Gravity is defined as result of motion of object in space. Inertioidal system for inertial propulsion. Any type systems for non-reactive movement. Electro- gravity and transformation of gravitational field in electricity. 3. Discussion by cause-effect relations. Theory and experiments of Kozyrev N. 1946-1991. How to use the flow of time as source of power similar to star's source of power, by Kozyrev. Waves of density of time ( density of space free energy ). 4. Discussion by Tesla's approach to electromagnet "free vibrations" for over-unit. Resonance transformers for o/u. Single terminal ( power load that use only one wire from source of oscillations ) technology for o/u. Longituginal waves as Waves of density of energy in single wire ( antenn ). Standing waves as free energy source. 5. Investigations for syntropy operating systems as systems are producing work when the Dispersed Heat is concentrated from outside area into inner area of local system. Heat Pump. Syntropy and reverse time effect. 6. Water-fuel systems. Special interest in stationary power system that can produce electric power output about 10 KWatts - 100 KWatts. There are some interest to such sort devices from Russian customers. Now you have it. Please, sent for me your proposals for real work to develop experiments, introduce results, patent new ideas. Welcome any help. We have not funds at all. We have information about inventors and customers and we hope begin commercialization of new energy and gravity / time projects. We look forward to hearing from you the reply by personal e-mail for us. Alexander V. Frolov Director The Institute for Free Energy, St.-Petersburg, Russia alex frolov.spb.su .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Sep 20 06:14:42 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA05199 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 06:14:17 -0700 Received: from hercule.utcluj.ro (root [141.85.128.247]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA05058 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 06:13:25 -0700 Received: by hercule.utcluj.ro (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0svOxv-000MWyC; Wed, 20 Sep 95 16:13 EET DST Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 16:13:31 +0300 (EET DST) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Subject: Free Energy Inst. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Bill Beaty and all, You can find relevant papers of Alexander Frolov in New Energy News and Fusion Facts. Or, you can ask Dr. Hal Fox who knows Frolov well. Best regards Peter P.S. Chris! Can you tell me the data of the Potapov patents? Thank you. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Sep 20 19:13:45 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA29892 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 14:17:10 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA29873 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 14:17:05 -0700 Received: from net-1-198.eden.com (net-1-171.eden.com [199.171.21.171]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id QAA20918 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 16:17:01 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 16:17:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199509202117.QAA20918 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Chris' Trip X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Welcome back, Chris (you are back aren't you?) Sounds like a good relationship was established with a group of good engineers there who will be able to test the thing correctly. >From your description, it sounded a bit like the YUT (Yusmar-Under-Test) is not a factory assembled unit with pump, vortex tube, and radiators, like we were hoping to get...but rather just the vortex tube, like we got here in the States? please set me straight on this. Did you get to run the YUT at all while you were there? There was no mention of "vodka trials" this time. Is that because you're getting used to that kind of abuse...or was the stuff not so prevalently involved in the daily life of these guys? Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Sep 20 20:11:55 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA24877 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 20:11:50 -0700 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA24852 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 20:11:43 -0700 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id UAA11503; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 20:11:42 -0700 Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 20:11:41 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Pathological Skepticism! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed forwarded an article titled 'How to Debunk Almost Anything' to me a couple of months ago. I don't remember if I ever passed it on to the list. I've just received an updated copy from the author. It's a devastating critique of the type of toxic anti-science skepticism that's been leveled against CF and overunity devices (though the author's topic is actually UFOs.) Shall I post it here? It's about 30K long. It's also at: http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/pathskep.html .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Sep 20 23:20:11 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA04453 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 23:19:37 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA04427 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 23:19:28 -0700 Received: from net-1-164.eden.com (net-1-164.eden.com [199.171.21.164]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id BAA07140 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 01:19:23 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 01:19:23 -0500 Message-Id: <199509210619.BAA07140 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Griggs "un-line" X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Since Bill Beaty told me how to "finger", I've been periodically checking on Grigg's on-line activity...or lack thereof. His account has not been logged on since Aug 6th! I guess he's not addicted like the rest of us, huh? From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Sep 22 16:19:52 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA16798 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:19:31 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA16736; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:19:19 -0700 Received: from net-1-216.eden.com (net-1-216.eden.com [199.171.21.216]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id AAA23653; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 00:49:07 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 00:49:07 -0500 Message-Id: <199509220549.AAA23653 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: No bypass port!? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:28 PM 9/21/95 EDT, Chris wrote: >Yep, the Yusmar-1 from Moscow (certified 'good' at >o-u) looked just like the others, a bare tube. No cookie-cutters (whatever >they are, I suppose like pastry cutters?) NOR HOLE FOR BYPASS TUBE NEITHER. >It was supposed to eb ex-demonstration..... No BYPASS tube, Chris!? That's incredible! The fact that this "certified O-U tube" has no bypass port can mean only one of two things: 1. This tube is not really O-U. 2. A bypass tube is not required for O-U. The latter is somewhat hard to swallow after all we've been through. The bypass tube has been steadfastly championed by both you and Peter as an absolutely necessary ingredient in the O-U "formula". All the talk we've heard about correct sizing of the bypass line, tuning of the bypass line to match conditions in the field, etc....was it all just hot air fed to you guys by Potapov? Peter, how does it make you feel to learn that the "certified O-U" tube has no bypass port at all? Chris: >B: "KIPPERS DO NOT WHISTLE!" Ah...er...are you talking about a "herring that has been split, salted, and smoked"? - Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Sep 21 21:49:54 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA14859 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 11:36:29 -0700 Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [198.4.9.5]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA14779 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 11:36:08 -0700 Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id OAA29613; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:34:50 -0400 Date: 21 Sep 95 14:28:49 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: My trip Message-ID: <950921182849_100433.1541_BHG74-2 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:internet:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Scott, Sorry I'm a bit slow with my responses, everything seems to be conspiring against my getting through my email just now. Yes, I'm back indeed. Yep, the Yusmar-1 from Moscow (certified 'good' at o-u) looked just like the others, a bare tube. No cookie-cutters (whatever they are, I suppose like pastry cutters?) NOR HOLE FOR BYPASS TUBE NEITHER. It was supposed to eb ex-demonstration..... No, I did not get to see ANY testing. But then again, nobody expected me to drink either. I think my grand total was two small bottles of beer. These were serious people, booze is not in evidence. Apparently, the better kind of folk there are a bit sensitive about the way the West views the drinking habits once prevalent there, and things have changed a lot. Not that I'm anti-booze, I just don't like the taste very much. Equally, I felt pretty sensitive about the way our 'trash culture' has arrived there before anything good. Not that the locals are so slow, I saw with astonishment an advert for "Hermitage" brand cigarettes (I can read the damned Cyrillic reasonably easily. The world-famous art gallery in question is busy sueing the company for misuse of the name. Bill, I see no reason for not posting the famous 'debunk' thing - people can always delete it if they don't want to be bothered. Personally, I rather like the Kipper "Joke", which applies perfectly to many of the anti-CF pundits: A: "What is green, hangs on the wall, and whistles?" B: "I don't know. What is green, hangs on the wall and whistles?" A: "A kipper." B: "But ... a kipper isn't green!" A: "You can paint a kipper green." B: "Well ... but kippers don't hang on the wall." A: "That's silly. You can hang it on the wall." B: "KIPPERS DO NOT WHISTLE!" A: "Ah, well now. You really cannot expect a hypothesis to fit with EVERY trivial detail, can you?" Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 17:03:02 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA21117 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 17:02:41 -0700 Received: from head.globalcom.net (head.globalcom.net [204.111.1.35]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA21031 for ; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 17:02:19 -0700 From: Visor globalcom.net Received: from 204.111.1.76 (eb1ppp12.globalcom.net [204.111.1.76]) by head.globalcom.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id UAA20537 for ; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 20:03:12 -0400 Message-Id: <199509260003.UAA20537 head.globalcom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 25 Sep 95 08:10:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Moray B King To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <950924193659_555063.0_EHF26-1 CompuServe.COM> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Because of prompting from others and a request from one of my Russian friends I ordered "Tapping The Zero-Point Energy" from the Tesla book club. Being flat on my back in bed with the flu, reading this seemed as good as any a way of passing time. I found this book to be an interesting collection of information that has been popping up here and there over the years, some of which I feel may be used as a starting point for additional thought. What were your thoughts? From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Sep 22 19:21:09 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA26811 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:07:59 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net (root big.aa.net [204.157.220.2]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA26633 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:07:13 -0700 Received: from s1c1p4.aa.net (s1c1p4.aa.net [204.157.220.176]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA22056 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:07:12 -0700 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:07:12 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199509221807.LAA22056 big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: mwm aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: Pathological Skepticism! Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Jed forwarded an article titled 'How to Debunk Almost Anything' to me a >couple of months ago. I don't remember if I ever passed it on to the >list. I've just received an updated copy from the author. It's a >devastating critique of the type of toxic anti-science skepticism that's >been leveled against CF and overunity devices (though the author's topic >is actually UFOs.) Shall I post it here? It's about 30K long. > >It's also at: > >http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/pathskep.html > why not? not everybody can browse. I've got some gifs I just made of pix of 4 early 29th century naysayers with their historical quotes to the effect that anything new is impossible...they are black and white and make great pinups in a rogues gallery of famous idiots...will be posting them soon on my web. You are free to steal them from me...they will be at eskimo.com/~palbank in about a week. This is how truth gets it sweet revenge...eventually. ____________________________________ MetaSyn Media, electronic publishing Michael Mandeville, publisher mwm aa.net http://www.aa.net/~mwm From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Sat Sep 23 02:28:33 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA05917 for vortex-l-outgoing; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 02:27:59 -0700 Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA05911 for ; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 02:27:54 -0700 Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id FAA02415; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 05:26:37 -0400 Date: 23 Sep 95 05:24:51 EDT From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: Subject: Bypass .... kippers .... Message-ID: <950923092451_100433.1541_BHG40-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To:INTERNET:VORTEX-L MAIL.ESKIMO.COM Scott, Yes, a kipper is as you state. The best come from Craster, a small village on the Northumberland coast, and your description fits those about well as 'fish-eggs' fits the best caviar. I'm told that the bulk of their production is reserved for Paradise, but that's just a story. I doubt that paint would improve the flavour, though. I'm just as confused and frustrated by all this bypass stuff as you are. I can imagine how you feel. All I want to do is to nail this business down finally. What gives me the most encouragement is that Russia is well-enough supplied with some pretty hard-nosed people these days. Between the Polsunov people and the business fellows in Moscow, I believe we'll find out. You will appreciate that the boys in Moscow are not going to be best pleased if the Polsunov tests are negative. They would then very much like to know from Delovoi Mir how it is that they have all these satisfied customers and glowing reports from Energiya. Delovoi Mir say they can get these results any time. So, we would then have two business outfits in the same town with different things to say about each other ... Chris From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Sep 25 23:07:40 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA11079 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 23:07:22 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA11063 for ; Mon, 25 Sep 1995 23:07:14 -0700 Received: from net-1-218.austin.eden.com (net-1-218.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.218]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id BAA19259 for ; Tue, 26 Sep 1995 01:07:11 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 01:07:11 -0500 Message-Id: <199509260607.BAA19259 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: Moray B King X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robert, It's been a while since I looked at that book but I recall a concept that I thought was useful. King talks frequently about "cohering the vacuum" which I take to mean getting some of the photons that make up the ZPF to become coherent with one another...i.e. get going in the same direction and with the same phase relationship, like what happens in a laser. I don't have a clue as to how to accomplish this cohering but it is an example of the kind of ZPF interaction that just might turn out to be "non-conservative"...i.e. result in a net energy extraction from the ZPF. - Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Sep 26 04:58:24 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA23565 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 26 Sep 1995 04:58:22 -0700 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA23533 for ; Tue, 26 Sep 1995 04:58:13 -0700 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id EAA00759; Tue, 26 Sep 1995 04:58:10 -0700 Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 04:58:09 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: Moray B King In-Reply-To: <199509260607.BAA19259 matrix.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 26 Sep 1995, Scott Little wrote: > Robert, > > It's been a while since I looked at that book but I recall a concept that I > thought was useful. King talks frequently about "cohering the vacuum" which > I take to mean getting some of the photons that make up the ZPF to become > coherent with one another...i.e. get going in the same direction and with > the same phase relationship, like what happens in a laser. > > I don't have a clue as to how to accomplish this cohering but it is an > example of the kind of ZPF interaction that just might turn out to be > "non-conservative"...i.e. result in a net energy extraction from the ZPF. I took this "cohering" description to simply mean "producing macroscopic EM fields." Is not the field around a magnet actually composed of virtual photons? So if one component of the ZPF is virtual photons, and macroscopic EM fields are also composed of virtual photons, then how is a magnetic field different from the ZPF? Coherence. At least this is what I gather from reading the description (I didn't see it explicitly stated.) So a simple permanent magnet "Coheres the ZPF." But it does so with conservative energy interactions. The exciting possibility behind "cohering the ZPF" would be to create an EM field through the use of as-yet-unknown ZPF laws which, from a human-scale viewpoint, don't conserve energy. This might act like a 'free energy' device that created oscillating EM fields without using macroscopic energy, but would actually be translating energy from the ZPF up into the macroscopic world. The skeptic in me (living in starvation conditions in his tiny hovel! ;) notes that this is disturbingly similar to Maxwell's Demon devices, where an attempt is made to "Cohere the Random Thermal Vibrations." A "RTV" device would get all the gas molecules moving in a coherent pattern and would create acoustic output without requiring energy input. It would be the opposite of a sound absorber, and thermal vibrations would turn to sound rather than the reverse. But ZPE does not correspond perfectly with thermal vibrations. There is (probably?) no entropy increase as EM radiation travels through vacuum. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Tue Sep 26 06:30:40 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA09134 for vortex-l-outgoing; Tue, 26 Sep 1995 06:30:38 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA09112; Tue, 26 Sep 1995 06:30:30 -0700 Received: from net-1-148.austin.eden.com (net-1-148.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.148]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id IAA07628; Tue, 26 Sep 1995 08:30:24 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 08:30:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199509261330.IAA07628 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: Moray B King X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill Beaty said: >The exciting possibility behind >"cohering the ZPF" would be to create an EM field through the use of >as-yet-unknown ZPF laws which, from a human-scale viewpoint, don't >conserve energy. As I have mentioned to you before, Bill, I think if we could construct a diode with virtually zero forward drop, it would be possible to draw ZPF power as DC electricity directly from an antenna. The skeptic in me (puttering about in his one-room apartment) feels that such a device would violate the 2nd law of Thermodynamics in some inscrutable way. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 06:33:11 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA26941 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 27 Sep 1995 06:32:57 -0700 Received: from hercule.utcluj.ro (root [141.85.128.247]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA26823 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 1995 06:32:17 -0700 Received: by hercule.utcluj.ro (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0sxwae-000MNVC; Wed, 27 Sep 95 15:32 EET Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 15:31:59 +0200 (EET) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Scott and All, As regarding the new Yusmar tube, perhaps Chris can tell us if it looks unused or it is evident that it was functional. It isn't easy but perfectly possible for a relative, and (in a certain extent) alter-ego of Sherlock Holmes. I have spoken with my friends of Bucharest and they will get the patents: Belarussian 359/'93; Moldavian 141/'93 and 8/'94, Russian 21742/'93, as soon as possible. I am expecting comments re. the documents from St. Pete The scheme couldn't be sent with my means of e-mailing anyway the bypass tube is where it has to be. Scott, I know it seems to be a contradiction and I enjoy it, creativity needs contradictions. Let's wait and see! Best regards to all! Peter  From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 07:06:16 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA03418 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 27 Sep 1995 07:06:13 -0700 Received: from clark.dgim.doc.ca (root clark.dgim.doc.ca [142.92.39.18]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA03361 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 1995 07:06:01 -0700 Received: from Steckly.Gary.dgrr000.ic.gc.ca by clark.dgim.doc.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1.tee) id AA11801; Wed, 27 Sep 95 10:05:55 EDT Date: Wed, 27 Sep 95 10:05:55 EDT Message-Id: <9509271405.AA11801 clark.dgim.doc.ca> X-Sender: gsteckly clark.dgim.doc.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: gsteckly clark.dgim.doc.ca (Gary Steckly) Subject: Re: Moray B King X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Scott said: >Bill Beaty said: > >>The exciting possibility behind >>"cohering the ZPF" would be to create an EM field through the use of >>as-yet-unknown ZPF laws which, from a human-scale viewpoint, don't >>conserve energy. > >As I have mentioned to you before, Bill, I think if we could construct a >diode with virtually zero forward drop, it would be possible to draw ZPF >power as DC electricity directly from an antenna. The skeptic in me >(puttering about in his one-room apartment) feels that such a device would >violate the 2nd law of Thermodynamics in some inscrutable way. > Shades of the "Fogal Device", which was reported on in the June 1994 monthly technical edition of Superconductivity News (Vol. 6, No. 42). Didn't they claim that his modified transistor had a barrier voltage in the .2 to .4 millivolt region? Anyone hear what happened to that story or did it turn out to be a lot of hot air? A bit of interesting trivia re Moray that I heard via a reliable source recently; Harvey Fletcher Sr., who set up the Bell lab in which the transitor was invented/discovered, had apparently witnessed many of Moray's demonstrations of his strange energy device which used a rather mysterious "Moray valve", which in some of Moray's early writings he referred to as a "germanium triode". All this some 20 years before the invention of the transistor?! Apparently, Fletcher had tried to get Moray to come to work for Bell, but Moray seemed to be a bit paranoid about a lot of things, and didn't take up the offer. Interesting story, but not related to the charter of this group so I'd better stop here. regards Gary From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 15:44:22 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA16124 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 27 Sep 1995 14:01:00 -0700 Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [198.4.9.4]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA16025 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 1995 14:00:41 -0700 Received: by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA12776; Wed, 27 Sep 1995 16:59:20 -0400 Date: 27 Sep 95 16:52:06 EDT From: James Diss <100540.2743 compuserve.com> To: "[unknown]" Subject: Motor Tuning. Message-ID: <950927205205_100540.2743_JHB70-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello everybody, Due to the cost of receiving Mail from the Internet, I've not spotted any conclusions apropos the motor. As the restriction has now dissappeared, hopefully I can bug you all with inane questions. Were any conclusions reached about the RPM and power of the motor? How crucial is it? James From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 16:26:23 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA22826 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 27 Sep 1995 16:26:18 -0700 Received: from eskimo.com (billb eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA22704 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 1995 16:25:52 -0700 Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id QAA14122; Wed, 27 Sep 1995 16:25:49 -0700 Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 16:25:47 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: Moray B King In-Reply-To: <9509271405.AA11801 clark.dgim.doc.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 27 Sep 1995, Gary Steckly wrote: > Interesting story, but not related to the charter of this group so I'd > better stop here. > > regards > > Gary ...so continue it on FREENRG-LIST eskimo.com. I still need to write an info blurb and topic requirements for the listserve, so I'm not ready to advertize everywhere, but everyone here should feel free to subscribe. It's for discussion of free energy, antigravity, and "impossible" physics, heavy on the experimental side. Send this to majordomo eskimo.com: subscribe freenrg-list your-email-addr-goes-here Then send messages to freenrg-list eskimo.com .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Sep 27 22:53:43 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA06399 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 27 Sep 1995 22:53:31 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA06357; Wed, 27 Sep 1995 22:53:20 -0700 Received: from net-1-207.austin.eden.com (net-1-207.austin.eden.com [199.171.21.207]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id AAA08199; Thu, 28 Sep 1995 00:53:16 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 00:53:16 -0500 Message-Id: <199509280553.AAA08199 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "[unknown]" From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: Motor Tuning. X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 04:52 PM 9/27/95 EDT, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: >Hello everybody, > >Due to the cost of receiving Mail from the Internet, I've not spotted any >conclusions apropos the motor. As the restriction has now dissappeared, >hopefully I can bug you all with inane questions. > >Were any conclusions reached about the RPM and power of the motor? >How crucial is it? What motor? What restriction? Did I miss a whole chapter of discussion somewhere!? From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Thu Sep 28 16:12:09 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA04847 for vortex-l-outgoing; Thu, 28 Sep 1995 16:12:08 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (root matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA04708 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 1995 16:11:32 -0700 Received: from net-2-118.austin.eden.com (net-2-118.austin.eden.com [204.177.170.118]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12/8.6.12.1) with SMTP id SAA23400 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 1995 18:10:45 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 18:10:45 -0500 Message-Id: <199509282310.SAA23400 matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: little eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: Motor Tuning. X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 05:15 PM 9/28/95 EDT, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: >Scott wrote: >>>What motor? What restriction? Did I miss a whole chapter of discussion >somewhere!? << > >Sorry, I was under the impression that somebody would have looked at the >motor attached to the Yusmars. I didn't mean to scare you away, James. Let's hear your ideas and thoughts on the Yusmar motors. What restriction are you talking about? Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Fri Sep 29 18:07:08 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA28104 for vortex-l-outgoing; Fri, 29 Sep 1995 18:06:55 -0700 Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA27964 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 1995 18:06:24 -0700 Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id VAA24209; Fri, 29 Sep 1995 21:05:05 -0400 Date: 29 Sep 95 21:03:30 EDT From: James Diss <100540.2743 compuserve.com> To: "[unknown]" Subject: Motors Message-ID: <950930010330_100540.2743_JHB28-1 CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott et al. The motor looks like a sealed centrifugal pump to me, but there appeared to be a quick'n'easy inverter/feedback thermostat controlling the motor. Are motor RPMs the method of controlling the reaction inside the magic tube, and if so, would this make the RPM critical to the reaction? As a side note, has anyone seen a carbonisation module as used in the brewing industry? Very similar to a Yusmar. James PS bear with me, I'm by no stretch of the imagination a scientist, just a very curious tinkerer. From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Wed Aug 9 14:06:00 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA12326 for vortex-l-outgoing; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 14:05:47 -0700 Received: from karloff.lanl.gov (karloff.lanl.gov [128.165.16.190]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA12106 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 14:04:50 -0700 Message-Id: <199508092104.OAA12106 mail.eskimo.com> Received: by karloff.lanl.gov (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA215002298; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 15:04:58 -0600 From: Ron McFee Subject: ZPF, Burning Water? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 9 Aug 95 15:04:58 MDT Cc: mcfee lanl.gov In-Reply-To: <199508091515.IAA10593 big.aa.net>; from "Michael T. Huffman" at Aug 9, 95 8:15 am Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Zero Point Energy, Burning Water? Why not the Incredible Shrinking Hydrogen Atom? Julian Schwinger's hypothesis that the energy is coming from the fusion of hydrogen isotopes is the simplest and probably best theory. The Potapov device by producing kilowatts of power can easily demonstrate this. Why haven't the Moldovans, the Russians, the Belarus done this??????!!!!!!!!! The two different reactions that Julian proposed were (1) p + D -> 3He + 5.5 MeV (2) D + D -> 4He + 23.7 MeV. Natural hydrogen contains .000156 D. This is .0173 moles of D per liter of water. If reaction (1) is dominant, this amounts to 2,552 Kilowatt hours of energy per liter of water. If done to complete depletion. If (2) is favored, then you can theoretically get 5,493 Kw-hrs. Chris was told that spiking the water with heavy water did not increase the reaction rate. Jim Griggs got some heavy water from Gene (?) and also tried this and saw little effect. This means that (1) is probably the dominant reaction in the Yusmar device since the reaction only requires that some deuterium be present. The rate of the reaction is probably controlled by something else such as the formation of atomic light hydrogen in the cavities. The magic to this process is how the energy is distributed, i.e. it goes directly into heat energy. When the deuterium drops below a critical value the reactions will turn off, as Robert reported. Once you have an active Yusmar you can check this by measuring the 3He/4He ratio and correlate it to the energy production and the depletion of deuterium. Knuke is right that noble gases are difficult to contain however the helium ratio should be anomalous even if the total amount is low. Adding a controlled small amount of neon and argon would give a reference against which to measure the helium. Burning water? O.K. Knuke, but not chemical burning. Knukier burning! Good luck Chris. The Belarus tests are encouraging. A test (demonstration?) in Petersburg, fine. A thorough test in Nottinham, great! I would also like to hear of results from Bow, NH and Austin, TX. Peter, please congratulate Yuri Semionovich on licensing his invention to the Chinese. Regards, Ron From vortex-l-owner eskimo.com Mon Sep 4 06:36:19 1995 Received: (from majordom localhost) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA19502 for vortex-l-outgoing; Mon, 4 Sep 1995 06:35:55 -0700 Received: from hercule.utcluj.ro (root hercule.utcluj.ro [141.85.128.253]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA17704 for ; Mon, 4 Sep 1995 06:15:10 -0700 Received: by hercule.utcluj.ro (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0spZx1-000MW2C; Mon, 4 Sep 95 14:44 EET DST Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 14:44:31 +0300 (EET DST) From: "Mihai Jalobeanu (ITIM)" To: vortex vortex Subject: bibliography Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Friends, I have a secret hope that this discussion group will be one day the real forum of the "Cold Fusion" researchers. If so, it needs a bibliography including, in my opinion, both catalysis- and cavitation-stimulated cooperative energetical phenomena. (This is my understanding of the field). What's your opinion, friends about the usefulness of such a bibliography? For a start I'm sending a list of the papers and books missing from my collection. Shall be very indebted for receiving xerocopies of any of these articles. My address : Dr. Peter Gluck, Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology, POBox 700, 3400 Cluj-Napoca, Romania. NOTE: due to the installation of a new computer in our Bucharest node, I have lost all the messages between Aug. 25 and Sept.2. Please let me know if it was something of interest for this bibliography or some questions directed toward me. Thank you. All the best wishes from Peter! PAPERS TO BE OBTAINED. August 1995. 1] Heui Kyeong An et al. : " Analysis of Deformed Palladium Cathodes Resulting from Heavy Water Electrolysis" Fusion Technology, vol 27,no. 4, pp 408-417. 2] Ken-ichi Tsuchiya et al. : "A Possible Mechanism for Nuclear Reactions in Solids" Fusion Technology, vol 27, no. 4, pp 452-7 3] Robert Hickling: "Transient, High-Pressure Solidification Associated with Cavitation in Water", Phys. Rev. Lett., vol 73, no 21, 21 Nov 1994, pp 2853-2856 4] M.P. Brenner et al. :" Bubble shape oscillations and the onset of sonoluminescence", Phys. Rev. Lett., vol 75, no. 5, 31 Jul 1995 pp 954-957. 5] Z. L. Zhang et al: "Precision calorimetric studies of H2O electrolysis", Journal of Thermal Analysis, vol 45, no 1-2, pp 99-108 6] Y. K. Dechizelle et al. : "Observation and scaling of travelling bubble cavitation", Journal of Fluid Mechanics 293 (Jun 25, 1995), pp 99-126. 7] T.A. Green, T. I. Quickenden, : "Calorimetric studies of highly loaded deuterides and hydrides of palladium", Journal of Electroanalytical Chemistry 389, 1-2, Jun 1, 1995 pp 91-103. 8] BOOK: Knapp, R. T., Daily, J. W., Hammet,F. G. : "CAVITATION" Mc.Graw-Hill, 1977. 9] BOOK: Young, F. R. "CAVITATION', Mc.Graw-hill, 1989. 10] V. B. Kalinin, : "Dipole ordering, ionic conductivity, and nuclear cold fusion. Three types of cation mobility in the orthophosphates KTiOPO4, Na3M2(PO4)3, (M = Sc, Fe, Cr), NaTi2(PO4)3, KD2PO4 and related compounds. Inorganic Materials vol 35, n05, May 1995 pp 558-566. 11] P. M. Grant et al, : "Search for the evidence of nuclear involvement in the fatal explosion of a "cold fusion " experiment, Journal of Radioanalytical and Nuclear Chemistry Articles vol 193 no 1, May 1995 pp 165-169. 12] S. E. Jones et al., "Examination of claims of Miles et. al in Fleischmann type cold fusion experiments", Journal of Physical Chemistry vol 99 no.18, May 4, 1995 pp 6966-6972. 13] S. E. Jones et al., 'Faradaic efficiencies less than 100% during electrolysis of water can account for reports of excess heat in "cold fusion" cells, Journal of Physical Chemistry vol 99 18, no. 18, May 1995, pp 6973-6979. 14] P. Holst-Hansen, D. Britz : "Can current fluctuations account the excess heat claims of Fleischmann and Pons?" Journal of Electroanalytical Chemistry, to be published. 15] A. G. Lipson et al. ; " Increase of intensification of inner neutron flow during KD2PO4 crystal irradiation at the instant of ferroelectric transition" Pisma v Zhurnal Tekhnicheskoi Fiziki vol 20 no. 23 (Dec 12, 1994), pp 46-52. 16] A.G. Lipson et al. ; "Generation of hard gamma-emission in KD2PO4 monocrystals during ferroelectrical phase transition" Pisma v Zhurnal Tekhnicheskoi Fiziki vol 20, no. 23 (Dec 12, 1994) pp 53-58). [17] R. W. Kuhne, R. E. Sioda: "An extended micro hot fusion model for burst activity in deuterated solids", Fusion Technology vol 27, no 2, March 1995 pp 187-189. [18] G. R. Boucher et al., : "Separation factors for hydrogen isotopes on nickel and platinum during electrolysis", Fusion Technology vol 27, March 1995 pp 183-186. [19] V. I. Visotskii, R. N. Kuzmin: "Non-equilibrium Fermi condensate of deuterium atoms in crystal microcavities and the problem of realization of non-barrier cold nuclear synthesis" Zhurnal Tekhnicheskoi Fiziki vol 64, no 7, July 1994 pp 59-63. [20] A. Takahashi et al., : "Multibody Fusion Model to Explain experimental results" Fusion Technology vol 27, no 1, Jan.1995 pp 71-85.